From lynchaj at yahoo.com Tue Mar 1 04:32:35 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 05:32:35 -0500 Subject: MFM to IDE was RE SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project Message-ID: <0D3964CE2EF64977AE8FDD6F72CD82BE@andrewdesktop> Hi Ian, please note I said 'feasible'. Given enough effort and money I am confident that it is possible to build an MFM to IDE adapter. However, I do not think it is feasible as a hobbyist project. I may be wrong and maybe someone will produce such a device. I look forward to seeing it if and when it happens. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch MFM to IDE was: RE: SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project Mr Ian Primus ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Feb 28 15:05:22 CST 2011 * Previous message: SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project * Next message: MFM to IDE was: RE: SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] _____ On the subject of disk interface converters, I do believe an MFM to IDE bridge to be possible. Philip Pemberton has already proven it's possible to interface an MFM type device to a modern microcontroller - albiet the other way around, with his DiskFerret project. The MFM interface is very different from SCSI and IDE, true, but with modern microcontrollers, the data rate should be achievable. Sure, the MFM interface is primitive. You've got the analog-ish data stream from the disk and some stepper motor drive signals, but you can translate those with a microcontroller, have it request the block from the IDE device, buffer it, and stream it out to the host. I think it's doable. Just, more complicated than, say, SCSI to IDE. SCSI to IDE is a great project, but at least, for me, I've got plenty of SCSI drives. In fact, I probably have more SCSI disks than IDE. MFM, not so much. -Ian _____ * Previous message: SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project * Next message: MFM to IDE was: RE: SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] _____ More information about the cctalk mailing list _____ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Mar 1 06:20:56 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 12:20:56 +0000 Subject: WTD: 8-inch floppy drive Message-ID: <4D6CE4A8.40008@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, I'm trying to track down an 8-inch floppy drive to read an Intel MDS M2FM disc I've been sent for adding to the DiscFerret decoder engine. Specifically: it's an ISIS boot floppy, in SS/DD format. Does anyone have a spare 8in drive gathering dust in a corner somewhere? Based on the prices on Greed-Bay, I get the impression most of the sellers have been engaging in some form of abuse of illicit substances.... I mean, seriously, $700 for a Shugart 801, "untested" (which would seem to be a synonym for "I know it's broken but I sure as hell won't admit it!") and missing the head-amp / motor control PCB? Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 1 13:58:14 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 19:58:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: WTD: 8-inch floppy drive In-Reply-To: <4D6CE4A8.40008@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Mar 1, 11 12:20:56 pm Message-ID: > > Hi guys, > > I'm trying to track down an 8-inch floppy drive to read an Intel MDS > M2FM disc I've been sent for adding to the DiscFerret decoder engine. > Specifically: it's an ISIS boot floppy, in SS/DD format. > > Does anyone have a spare 8in drive gathering dust in a corner somewhere? > Based on the prices on Greed-Bay, I get the impression most of the > sellers have been engaging in some form of abuse of illicit > substances.... I mean, seriously, $700 for a Shugart 801, "untested" > (which would seem to be a synonym for "I know it's broken but I sure as > hell won't admit it!") and missing the head-amp / motor control PCB? AFAIK, SA801s have one PCB which includes the read/write chain and stepepr controlelr, etc. There is no spindle motor controller, of course. I'd better expand on that last part becuase it may affect you buying a drive second-hand. Msot, (but not all) 8" drives have cpacitor-run AC spindle motors. Their speed is therefor set by the mains frequency. I ahve seen both 15V and 230V motors in SA800s. Both will run off either 50Hz or 60Hz power, but turn at differnet speeds. You can use a transfoemr to convert the voltage, but the speed is more of a problem. The official fix is a different motor pulley. Getting one is aproblem. Of coruse it's not hard to trun one if you haev a reasoanble workshop, but rather hander if ytou ton't. Mind you, in your case I suspect you could fidle the software decoding routines to hadle the 'wrong' data rate. But it would be better to get a drive runnig at the accepted speed so your routines were of use to others. -tony From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Tue Mar 1 16:27:41 2011 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 14:27:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Altos terminal on ebay and an odd japanese computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <848818.33237.qm@web113516.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> >140486117150 >Vintage Oasys 30 AFII Japanese luggable computer I asked a friend from Japan and was told that this is a word processor From a50mhzham at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 16:34:25 2011 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 16:34:25 -0600 Subject: WTD: 8-inch floppy drive In-Reply-To: <4D6CE4A8.40008@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D6CE4A8.40008@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4d6d7492.06ead80a.6b68.fffff64d@mx.google.com> I have a Shugart 801 FDD I've been trying to sell. Yours for reasonable offer, plus shipping. Condition: Working when removed from my external box I built for my LSI-11. The motor is 115 volts, 60 cycles. Number of boards/components missing: None. At 06:20 AM 3/1/2011, you wrote: >Hi guys, > >I'm trying to track down an 8-inch floppy drive to read an Intel MDS >M2FM disc I've been sent for adding to the DiscFerret decoder >engine. Specifically: it's an ISIS boot floppy, in SS/DD format. > >Does anyone have a spare 8in drive gathering dust in a corner >somewhere? Based on the prices on Greed-Bay, I get the impression >most of the sellers have been engaging in some form of abuse of >illicit substances.... I mean, seriously, $700 for a Shugart 801, >"untested" (which would seem to be a synonym for "I know it's broken >but I sure as hell won't admit it!") and missing the head-amp / >motor control PCB? > >Thanks, >-- >Phil. >classiccmp at philpem.me.uk >http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Mar 1 16:50:19 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 14:50:19 -0800 Subject: WTD: 8-inch floppy drive In-Reply-To: <4d6d7492.06ead80a.6b68.fffff64d@mx.google.com> Message-ID: IIRC the tandon TM-848-2 drives use 24VDC motors... I always liked them better than the shugart drives. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 1 17:33:42 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 15:33:42 -0800 Subject: FPGA PDP-1 implementation over at Opencores... Message-ID: <4D6D11D6.20281.1417110@cclist.sydex.com> http://opencores.org/project,pdp1,Overview (I think you need to join Opencores to actually download anything) FWIW, Chuck From tosteve at yahoo.com Tue Mar 1 18:11:35 2011 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 16:11:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Free: Stack of Victor or Sirius floppy disks Message-ID: <76402.43965.qm@web110603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Yes, a whole stack of 5-1/4 inch floppy disks for your Victor computer. All copies, no originals. Are they any good? Who knows! Do you want them? Heck yeah! Pay shipping and we can make it so. No sniping allowed. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Mar 1 18:19:22 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 00:19:22 +0000 Subject: WTD: 8-inch floppy drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D6D8D0A.2080408@philpem.me.uk> On 01/03/11 19:58, Tony Duell wrote: > AFAIK, SA801s have one PCB which includes the read/write chain and > stepepr controlelr, etc. There is no spindle motor controller, of course. Indeed. The one I saw had the wires hacked off at various points (!) and the PCB was completely gone. Something like that is worth scrap value at best... > I'd better expand on that last part becuase it may affect you buying a > drive second-hand. Msot, (but not all) 8" drives have cpacitor-run AC > spindle motors. Their speed is therefor set by the mains frequency. As you would expect with AC motors. > I ahve seen both 15V and 230V motors in SA800s. Both will run off either > 50Hz or 60Hz power, but turn at differnet speeds. You can use a > transfoemr to convert the voltage, but the speed is more of a problem. I assume you meant "115V and 230V motors", because I've seen the SA800 spec sheet, and IIRC it doesn't mention a 15V motor. The 115V boxen are usually 60Hz, the 230s are usually 50Hz. This, of course, means precisely nothing if you've got a spare mains transformer, a sine wave oscillator and a power amplifier. DIY mains inverter anyone? :) > The official fix is a different motor pulley. Getting one is aproblem. Of > coruse it's not hard to trun one if you haev a reasoanble workshop, but > rather hander if ytou ton't. And the cheat is -- as I've said -- to make a homebrew sine or modified-sine inverter. An even better way is to find a drive with a DC-drive motor. For instance, the NEC FD1165 takes 24V and 5V in. Direct-drive spindle motor with integrated (read: big and heavy) flywheel and an optical-encoder speed controller. Very spiffy. It's still a brushed motor though, and I'm hoping the brushes are in decent nick (I'm betting they won't be easy to replace!) I fear tracking down a 6-pin "Berg" power connector might be... "interesting". The 4-pin (PC 3.5 FDD power connector) variant is widely available, but the AMP part number I have for the 6-pin is showing as "discontinued"... Urrgh... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Mar 1 19:01:03 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 17:01:03 -0800 Subject: WTD: 8-inch floppy drive In-Reply-To: <4D6D8D0A.2080408@philpem.me.uk> References: ,<4D6D8D0A.2080408@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: Hi You should look for double sided, although the 801 will work for most M2FM as they're mostly single sided. Dwight > Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 00:19:22 +0000 > From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > To: > Subject: Re: WTD: 8-inch floppy drive > > On 01/03/11 19:58, Tony Duell wrote: > > AFAIK, SA801s have one PCB which includes the read/write chain and > > stepepr controlelr, etc. There is no spindle motor controller, of course. > > Indeed. The one I saw had the wires hacked off at various points (!) and > the PCB was completely gone. Something like that is worth scrap value at > best... > ---snip--- From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 1 19:35:39 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 17:35:39 -0800 Subject: WTD: 8-inch floppy drive In-Reply-To: <4D6D8D0A.2080408@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D6D8D0A.2080408@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D6D9EEB.7030301@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > AFAIK, SA801s have one PCB which includes the read/write chain and > stepepr controlelr, etc. There is no spindle motor controller, of course. Philip Pemberton wrote: > Indeed. The one I saw had the wires hacked off at various points (!) > and the PCB was completely gone. Something like that is worth scrap > value at best... Tony wasn't saying that the spindle motor controller had been removed. He was pointing out that such a drive by design has no spindle motor controller, since it uses an AC motor. If you spend time looking for an SA801 with an intact spindle motor controller, you'll be looking for a very long time. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Mar 1 19:47:18 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 01:47:18 +0000 Subject: WTD: 8-inch floppy drive In-Reply-To: <4D6D9EEB.7030301@brouhaha.com> References: <4D6D8D0A.2080408@philpem.me.uk> <4D6D9EEB.7030301@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4D6DA1A6.5020207@philpem.me.uk> On 02/03/11 01:35, Eric Smith wrote: > Tony wasn't saying that the spindle motor controller had been removed. > He was pointing out that such a drive by design has no spindle motor > controller, since it uses an AC motor. If you spend time looking for an > SA801 with an intact spindle motor controller, you'll be looking for a > very long time. I'm aware of that. What I was trying to say was "it was missing the board which controls the heads and head stepper". Evidently I need to look into disabling the Send button in my mail client after midnight... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From evan at snarc.net Tue Mar 1 19:54:36 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 20:54:36 -0500 Subject: Giant Mac collection available... In-Reply-To: <0LHC00FUD8I08HR0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0LHC00FUD8I08HR0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <4D6DA35C.7020301@snarc.net> > Folks there is a fellow offering a giant Mac collection which he hopes > to find a buyer for: > http://web.me.com/macabbott/macabb.com/Mac_Museum_Photos.html > anyone have any recommendations here? > > Bruce Web site says he's in Charlotte, so I will contact him about VCF East. Maybe he could bring them for consignment. From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 20:24:46 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 21:24:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: WTD: 8-inch floppy drive In-Reply-To: <4D6CE4A8.40008@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D6CE4A8.40008@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Mar 2011, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > > I'm trying to track down an 8-inch floppy drive to read an Intel MDS M2FM > disc I've been sent for adding to the DiscFerret decoder engine. > Specifically: it's an ISIS boot floppy, in SS/DD format. > > Does anyone have a spare 8in drive gathering dust in a corner somewhere? > Based on the prices on Greed-Bay, I get the impression most of the sellers > have been engaging in some form of abuse of illicit substances.... I mean, > seriously, $700 for a Shugart 801, "untested" (which would seem to be a > synonym for "I know it's broken but I sure as hell won't admit it!") and > missing the head-amp / motor control PCB? Keep an eagle-eye on eBay. In the past few years I've picked up a number of them, including three brand-new 1/2-ht Panasonic DC units. Not everyone picks usurious price-points. They do come along now and then. -- From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 1 21:36:35 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 19:36:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Free: Stack of Victor or Sirius floppy disks In-Reply-To: <76402.43965.qm@web110603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <76402.43965.qm@web110603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110301193447.A95225@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 1 Mar 2011, steven stengel wrote: > Yes, a whole stack of 5-1/4 inch floppy disks for your Victor computer. > All copies, no originals. > Are they any good? Who knows! > Do you want them? Heck yeah! > Pay shipping and we can make it so. > No sniping allowed. Send one to Philip. But, don't tell him what's special about the format until he ferrets it out! :-) Does Al have an archived system disk? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From shawn.t.rutledge at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 22:13:32 2011 From: shawn.t.rutledge at gmail.com (Shawn Rutledge) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 21:13:32 -0700 Subject: complete Sun NeWS kit available Message-ID: I was interested in playing with NeWS (a Postscript-based windowing system from Sun, predating X) and acquired this stuff from a member of this list. I never got around to doing anything with it. There are 3 SparcStations (2 IPCs and an IPX), a NeWSPrinter (laser printer which relies on the host to do the Postscript rendering), the NeWS 2.1 Programmer's Guide, some CDs that can be used to reinstall the OS if necessary, and a suitable external CD drive. Any reasonable offer plus shipping costs will be accepted, since we need to move soon, and I don't see the point anymore of hanging on to something I never found the time to explore properly. From ak6dn at mindspring.com Tue Mar 1 23:09:03 2011 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 21:09:03 -0800 Subject: Using tu58em to boot standalone backup on 11/750 ? In-Reply-To: <200456.64752.qm@web30608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <200456.64752.qm@web30608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D6DD0EF.5070909@mindspring.com> David Comley wrote: > Has anyone ever tried using the tu58em program to boot a VMS 5.2 install standalone backup on an 11/750 ? > > I ask because I am attempting to do so, and I keep encountering mount verify errors when I get to the fourth tape in the set. I see a lot of web references to using tu58em in the PDP-11 world, but not so much on the VAX. I suspect some sort of protocol error caused by an invalid response from the emulator. Same problem with the VMS 5.3 install, by the way. > > Before I pursue this approach to installing the OS any further I thought I'd see whether there's a known issue trying to do this. > > -Dave > > If you are referring to the emulator at http://www.ak6dn.com/PDP-11/TU58 then it is possible you are running into the RSP/MRSP protocol issue. I have only used the emulator with PDP-11s (PDP-11/44 and PDP-11/34 w/DL11W) which only use the original RSP (ie, no handshaking) mode. My understanding is that later on DEC implemented MRSP (Modified RSP) mode with implemented a byte-level handshake to be able to deal with the slower serial thruput on the 11/730 and 11/750 VAXes. The above emulator makes an attempt to support this mode (using the -m switch on launch) but it is completely untested as I have no way to do so. You might also might try using the -t or -T switches to slow the emulation down to more like a real TU-58 drive. I had to add the -t mode to allow the emulator to pass the DEC TU58 exerciser diagnostic as a full-speed emulation without extra delays failed many tests that relied on specific TU58 timing behavior. Don AK6DN From tingox at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 16:35:12 2011 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 23:35:12 +0100 Subject: WTD: 8-inch floppy drive In-Reply-To: <4D6CE4A8.40008@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D6CE4A8.40008@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: Hello, On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 1:20 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > > I'm trying to track down an 8-inch floppy drive to read an Intel MDS M2FM > disc I've been sent for adding to the DiscFerret decoder engine. > Specifically: it's an ISIS boot floppy, in SS/DD format. Interesting. I have in my possession, the following two floppies (both are 8 inch): 1 x ELAB MDS-Link v. 4.5, SINTRAN part, format: SINTRAN III 1 x ELAB MDS-Link v. 4.6, INTEL MDS part, format: Intel ISIS-II DD (SINTRAN III is / was the operating system for Norsk Data mini machines). I also have a working ND-Satellite / 9 machine, complete with a (working) 8 inch floppy drive. This will read the SINTRAN III floppy fine, but I don't know if it can read the ISIS-II DD format floppy, or if I have the software required to do so. > Does anyone have a spare 8in drive gathering dust in a corner somewhere? Sorry, I don't have a spare 8 inch floppy drive. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen, Norway From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 1 16:44:42 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 14:44:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Altos terminal on ebay and an odd japanese computer In-Reply-To: <848818.33237.qm@web113516.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <241742.68255.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 3/1/11, Christian Liendo wrote: > >140486117150 > >Vintage Oasys 30 AFII Japanese luggable computer > > I asked a friend from Japan and was told that this is a > word processor IOW a dedicated computer in it's own right. The Cat is categorized as a w/p. But it also has built in FORTH. From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Wed Mar 2 01:32:32 2011 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 01:32:32 -0600 Subject: Ted Nelson interview In-Reply-To: <4E5CB294-7B30-4436-9956-A828D34908AE@classiccomputing.com> References: <4E5CB294-7B30-4436-9956-A828D34908AE@classiccomputing.com> Message-ID: <4D6DF290.4070900@tx.rr.com> On 2/28/2011 1:33 PM, David Greelish wrote: > Tony and everyone, > > You can also see Ted Nelson here - http://www.viddler.com/explore/waxpancake/videos/6/1.964/ > > Starting at 6:17. > > If anyone has never watched this documentary before, I highly recommend it! It's my favorite. > Best, > > David Greelish, Computer Historian > That's marvelous, thanks. Looks like there are several other interesting videos there as well. Later, Charlie C. From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Wed Mar 2 01:46:47 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 07:46:47 -0000 Subject: SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project In-Reply-To: <02a601cbd789$59743330$0c5c9990$@ntlworld.com> References: <56FE0577E0E24736A51AFB7B561E7808@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <02a601cbd789$59743330$0c5c9990$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Hi Well that is the best suggestion I have heard so far. Having not done much other than a few Amateur Radio projects since the mid 1970's my hardware development knowledge is to say the least sparse. However I think I can draw a box with the Qbus signals on one side and the ST506 on the other. I can say DEC encouraged OEM's so there may be Q Bus interfacing information around. Prototyping boards I can probably source. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? |d|i|g|i|t|a|l|??? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt Sent: 28 February 2011 20:52 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project There has been talk on and off of producing a QBus board with an FPGA and an SD interface to make an RQDX-3 emulator (or anything else I suppose). That is something that would be really interesting to do, but perhaps it would be possible to create an FPGA board that implemented the ST506 interface instead. Either would be great projects as I too suffer from a dearth of RD53s and RD54s. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod Smallwood > Sent: 28 February 2011 08:51 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only' > Subject: RE: SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project > > Hi > Thank you for a most interesting reply. Despite having been around when > the transitions between interface types happened, there was a lot I did not > know. The fact that the ST506 interface was derived from 8" floppy > technology was news to me. > > I collect DEC equipment and all of the MFM drives DEC sold were OEM > badge jobs. There were three DEC RQDX MFM controllers I know of. I have a > RQDX-1 and a couple of RQDX-3's. I have never seen a RQDX-2. All three are > for the Q-bus. > > I have a few RD-53's but only one is reliable. The main logic board in an RD- > 53(Micropolis 1325) has a 8051 and a bunch of other stuff. I can't see how > an interface board with an 8051 is regarded as dumb. > > I am not short of SCSI drives in assorted physical sizes, capacities and > interface types. I also have a couple of third party Q-Bus SCSI controllers. > > Stating the obvious the above only applies to PDP11's. Yes I know you can > put a Q-bus controller in a Q-bus VAX. > > So what's my problem? As with many collectors my goal is to get the > systems back to the state they were in when they left the factory. I start > with the model designation on the box label and try to restore back to what > that defined. > > I'll stretch a point insofar as I'll use any MFM drive that DEC bought the OEM > version of regardless of if came from DEC. Even allowing for that MFM > drives that RQDX controllers can handle are getting scarce. > > So the problem is how the make an RQDX controller think its talking to an > RD series MFM drive when it isn't. > > > > Rod Smallwood (G8DGR) > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech- > bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Andrew Lynch > Sent: 28 February 2011 00:18 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project > > > Hi Rod, > > > I do not think an MFM/RLL (ST506/ST412) to IDE bridge board is feasible. > The SCSI-1 and IDE interfaces are purely digital and the drives are intelligent > enough to abstract much of the realtime complexities of communicating > with the hard drive itself. As a result the bridge board between the SCSI-1 > and IDE is relatively simple and a basic Z80 embedded controller is able to > accomplish the data transfer relatively easily. It is well suited for a > community hobbyist project like the SCSI to IDE/SD bridge board we are > working on at Vintage-Computer.com forums. > > > MFM/RLL (ST506/ST412) interfaces are a high speed extension of the > Shugart floppy drive interface with some additional signals. It is a hard > realtime interface and low level way to communicate with the hard drive. > As a result it would require an extremely sophisticated high speed controller > to interpret the signals to and from the MFM/RLL (ST506/ST412). A simple > Z80 or microcontroller based controller would not be able to accomplish the > task in my opinion. It may be possible but I believe it would be an expensive > commercial device and probably quite rare. > > > The SCSI-1 to/from IDE/SD project is a hobbyist community project and I > think would be quite helpful to the wide array of legacy/vintage/classic > devices which use SCSI-1 drives. So far, I have heard from owners of the > obvious microcomputers like Atari, Amiga, Apple Mac, Sun workstations, > DEC, etc. However many other devices used SCSI-1 devices such as > synthesizers, a variety of test and lab equipment (?), sewing machines (?), > photocopiers (?), and other devices I would have never suspected used SCSI- > 1 drives. > > > At the moment, there are 6 builders with the prototype PCBs but none have > reported a working build yet. The parts are very common and the design > uses only "hobbyist friendly" construction for easy assembly. However, the > software still needs to be written which should be largely reuse of existing > Z80 code from existing N8VEM projects. If you or anyone else is interested > in working on the project please contact me. I still have 4 remaining > prototype PCBs. My goal is to get this project up and running before the > SCSI-1 drives become difficult to obtain such as 100 TPI floppy drives, > MFM/RLL (ST506/ST412) hard drives, and other uncommon storage medias. > > > All of the technical information on the project is available at the N8VEM > wiki. It will be free/open and publicly posted for community benefit like the > rest of the N8VEM boards. Please read the existing technical documentation > before critiquing the design. > > > http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder > sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=MINI%20SCSI%20 > to%20IDE%20prototypes> > ¶m=MINI%20SCSI%20to%20IDE%20prototypes > > > Thanks and have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch > > > > > > > > > SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project > > > Rod Smallwood rodsmallwood at btconnect.com > 1%20to%20IDE%20and%2 > 0SD%20project&In-Reply- > To=%3C5177DAA49B624EFD819C07F9E41EFFA8%40RODSDEVSYSTE > M%3E> > Tue Feb 22 02:36:34 CST 2011 > > * Previous message: GSX > > porting project > * Next message: SCSI -1 to > IDE > and SD project > * Messages sorted by: [ date ] > > [ February/thread.html#297263> > thread ] [ subject ] > February/subject.html#297263> > [ author ] > February/author.html#297263> > > _____ > > > Hi > This looks interesting. As collector of DEC systems my need is slightly > different insofar as due to the rapid disappearance of ST506 (MFM) drives I > need to make say an IDE drive look like a an ST506 drive to a DEC MFM > controller. > > Whilst your SCSI to IDE is nice I'm not short of SCSI drives. However with > your experience you might like to comment on if you think a DEC MFM > controller to IDE drive converter box is feasible. > > > Regards > > Rod Smallwood > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech- > bounces at classiccmp.org > ] On Behalf Of > Andrew Lynch > Sent: 21 February 2011 14:39 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project > > Hi! Several weeks ago there was a discussion on CCTALK about a free/open > SCSI to IDE and SD project. I designed a PCB using the Z53C80 and a Z80 > with RAM/ROM/UART/IDE and SD. There is a prototype available waiting > for some interested builders to take on the project. > > > > As far as I know none of the builders have a completed unit although I think > if we had at least one working unit the project would make some real > progress. I have four remaining SCSI to IDE/SD prototype boards so if > anyone would like to join the project as a software developer please let me > know. I believe much of the software can be reused from previous N8VEM > and/or other free/open software projects. > > > > http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/page/35044530/PCB-Inventory > > > > Thanks and have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch > > _____ > > size=2 width="100%" align=center> > > * Previous message: GSX > > porting project > * Next message: SCSI -1 to > IDE > and SD project > * Messages sorted by: [ date ] > > [ thread ] February/thread.html#297263> [ > February/subject.html#297263> > subject ] [ author ] > February/author.html#297263> > > _____ > > More information > about the cctalk mailing list > > > > > > > > _____ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Mar 2 02:00:00 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 08:00:00 +0000 Subject: Free: Stack of Victor or Sirius floppy disks In-Reply-To: <20110301193447.A95225@shell.lmi.net> References: <76402.43965.qm@web110603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20110301193447.A95225@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4D6DF900.8080901@philpem.me.uk> On 02/03/11 03:36, Fred Cisin wrote: > Send one to Philip. But, don't tell him what's special about the format > until he ferrets it out! :-) If memory serves, it's a GCR based format recorded in 9-zone Z-CLV. Constant bit density mode, in other words. Of course, the bloody technical reference manual is missing almost all the relevant figures, and provides no details about the GCR coding scheme other than the sync pattern (lots an' lots o' 1s -- how predictable). Hmm. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Wed Mar 2 02:10:17 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 08:10:17 -0000 Subject: MFM to IDE was RE SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project In-Reply-To: <0D3964CE2EF64977AE8FDD6F72CD82BE@andrewdesktop> References: <0D3964CE2EF64977AE8FDD6F72CD82BE@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <5C4FACB002174A41ACF976AA026F1F72@RODSDEVSYSTEM> How about a whole PDP11 including the IDE interface? http://www.heeltoe.com/download/pdp11/README.html Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Lynch Sent: 01 March 2011 10:33 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: MFM to IDE was RE SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project Hi Ian, please note I said 'feasible'. Given enough effort and money I am confident that it is possible to build an MFM to IDE adapter. However, I do not think it is feasible as a hobbyist project. I may be wrong and maybe someone will produce such a device. I look forward to seeing it if and when it happens. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch MFM to IDE was: RE: SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project Mr Ian Primus ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Feb 28 15:05:22 CST 2011 * Previous message: SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project * Next message: MFM to IDE was: RE: SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] _____ On the subject of disk interface converters, I do believe an MFM to IDE bridge to be possible. Philip Pemberton has already proven it's possible to interface an MFM type device to a modern microcontroller - albiet the other way around, with his DiskFerret project. The MFM interface is very different from SCSI and IDE, true, but with modern microcontrollers, the data rate should be achievable. Sure, the MFM interface is primitive. You've got the analog-ish data stream from the disk and some stepper motor drive signals, but you can translate those with a microcontroller, have it request the block from the IDE device, buffer it, and stream it out to the host. I think it's doable. Just, more complicated than, say, SCSI to IDE. SCSI to IDE is a great project, but at least, for me, I've got plenty of SCSI drives. In fact, I probably have more SCSI disks than IDE. MFM, not so much. -Ian _____ * Previous message: SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project * Next message: MFM to IDE was: RE: SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] _____ More information about the cctalk mailing list _____ From olivier.2.smet at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 06:17:19 2011 From: olivier.2.smet at gmail.com (Olivier De Smet) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 13:17:19 +0100 Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator Message-ID: Hi, I have seen recently some 'request' for an hp 9000 serie 200 emulator .... here it is : http://sites.google.com/site/olivier2smet2/hp_projects/hp98x6 Olivier From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 06:52:06 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 07:52:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: WTD: 8-inch floppy drive In-Reply-To: <4D6D8D0A.2080408@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D6D8D0A.2080408@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Mar 2011, Philip Pemberton wrote: > I fear tracking down a 6-pin "Berg" power connector might be... > "interesting". The 4-pin (PC 3.5 FDD power connector) variant is widely > available, but the AMP part number I have for the 6-pin is showing as > "discontinued"... Urrgh... Yes, but for a man of your considerable talents that's not a big deal. Just pigtail another connector from the pins on the Berg :-). -- From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 2 09:49:22 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 07:49:22 -0800 Subject: Free: Stack of Victor or Sirius floppy disks In-Reply-To: <20110301193447.A95225@shell.lmi.net> References: <76402.43965.qm@web110603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20110301193447.A95225@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4D6E6702.8040903@bitsavers.org> On 3/1/11 7:36 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Send one to Philip. But, don't tell him what's special about the format > until he ferrets it out! :-) > > Does Al have an archived system disk? > No. I assume someone has figured out what the GCR format is on them? From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 2 09:55:20 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 07:55:20 -0800 Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D6E6868.1030605@bitsavers.org> On 3/2/11 4:17 AM, Olivier De Smet wrote: > Hi, > > I have seen recently some 'request' for an hp 9000 serie 200 emulator > .... here it is : > > http://sites.google.com/site/olivier2smet2/hp_projects/hp98x6 > PC only, no sources, yet ANOTHER implementation of CS80/Amigo yawn.. Think I'll just continue to sit on all the software CHM got from HP for the 9000 series until someone releases one in SOURCE FORM. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Mar 2 10:55:38 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 16:55:38 +0000 Subject: Free: Stack of Victor or Sirius floppy disks In-Reply-To: <4D6E6702.8040903@bitsavers.org> References: <76402.43965.qm@web110603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20110301193447.A95225@shell.lmi.net> <4D6E6702.8040903@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4D6E768A.2030708@philpem.me.uk> On 02/03/11 15:49, Al Kossow wrote: > On 3/1/11 7:36 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> Send one to Philip. But, don't tell him what's special about the format >> until he ferrets it out! :-) >> >> Does Al have an archived system disk? >> > > No. I assume someone has figured out what the GCR format is on them? Apparently someone did figure it out, back in 2009: http://forums.bannister.org/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=44930&page=80 Search for "figured out". Message 49597 by "Lord Nightmare". Apparently most of the work was done by Karsten Scheibler, assisted by "Lord Nightmare". I wonder if this is the same Karsten Scheibler who wrote the Catweasel driver app 'cw'... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Mar 2 11:15:37 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 17:15:37 +0000 Subject: Free: Stack of Victor or Sirius floppy disks In-Reply-To: <4D6E768A.2030708@philpem.me.uk> References: <76402.43965.qm@web110603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20110301193447.A95225@shell.lmi.net> <4D6E6702.8040903@bitsavers.org> <4D6E768A.2030708@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D6E7B39.3020807@philpem.me.uk> On 02/03/11 16:55, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Apparently most of the work was done by Karsten Scheibler, assisted by > "Lord Nightmare". I wonder if this is the same Karsten Scheibler who > wrote the Catweasel driver app 'cw'... SCORE! The GCR tables are in the current version of CW (v0.13), which is downloadable from http://www.unusedino.de/cw/ . Every 4-bit nibble becomes a 5-bit GCR block, per this table: input output 0 01010 0x0a 1 01011 0x0b 2 10010 0x12 3 10011 0x13 4 01110 0x0e 5 01111 0x0f 6 10110 0x16 7 10111 0x17 8 01001 0x09 9 11001 0x19 a 11010 0x1a b 11011 0x1b c 01101 0x0d d 11101 0x1d e 11110 0x1e f 10101 0x15 A sync seems to consist of a stream of '1' bits (16 or more?), followed by a '0' bit. I seem to recall this being one of the few things covered in the Victor 9000 docs (on bitsavers) though. Checksums are additive, either 8 or 16 bit. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Mar 2 11:32:05 2011 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 12:32:05 -0500 Subject: WTD: 8-inch floppy drive References: Message-ID: > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 14:50:19 -0800 > From: Geoffrey Reed > Subject: Re: WTD: 8-inch floppy drive > > IIRC the tandon TM-848-2 drives use 24VDC motors... I always liked them > better than the shugart drives. > Me too! Note that the earlier TM-848s used a belt drive, whereas the 848-2 is direct drive (all 24VDC of course). m From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Mar 2 12:03:35 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 18:03:35 +0000 Subject: WTD: MCM6206 RAMs Message-ID: <4D6E8677.1060200@philpem.me.uk> This just keeps getting better. It seems the failed EEPROM chip in my logic analyser left a parting gift: it spiked the D4 and A9 lines on its way out. In other words, it's killed half a dozen bus transceivers (74F244 and 74F245), and probably the two MCM6206 high-speed RAMs as well... Does anyone have any Motorola MCM6206 series parts to hand, preferably in the J-lead surface-mount package? The parts installed now are MCM6206DJ35, but other (faster) speed grades should be fine too. I need at least two of these, but preferably four or five so I've got spares for future use... Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From nico at Farumdata.dk Wed Mar 2 12:10:01 2011 From: nico at Farumdata.dk (nico) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 19:10:01 +0100 Subject: WTD: 8-inch floppy drive Message-ID: <201103021910.AA99942712@Farumdata.dk> ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "MikeS" Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 12:32:05 -0500 >> Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 14:50:19 -0800 >> From: Geoffrey Reed >> Subject: Re: WTD: 8-inch floppy drive >> >> IIRC the tandon TM-848-2 drives use 24VDC motors... I always liked them >> better than the shugart drives. >> > >Me too! > >Note that the earlier TM-848s used a belt drive, whereas the 848-2 is direct >drive (all 24VDC of course). > >m > What is a typical sales price for a functioning 8" drive? I have some YE data YD180 "surplus to requirements". They run on +5 and +24 VDC. The power connect looks like the connects on 3.5" floppies, about double width. All drives are DSDD From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 2 12:56:28 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 10:56:28 -0800 Subject: WTD: 8-inch floppy drive In-Reply-To: <201103021910.AA99942712@Farumdata.dk> References: <201103021910.AA99942712@Farumdata.dk> Message-ID: <4D6E92DC.2090908@bitsavers.org> On 3/2/11 10:10 AM, nico wrote: > What is a typical sales price for a functioning 8" drive? How much would it cost to get one to Philip from where you are? I'll cover the cost up to $100 total. From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed Mar 2 13:11:10 2011 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 20:11:10 +0100 Subject: WTD: 8-inch floppy drive In-Reply-To: <201103021910.AA99942712@Farumdata.dk> <4D6E92DC.2090908@bitsavers.org> References: <201103021910.AA99942712@Farumdata.dk> <4D6E92DC.2090908@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: From: "Al Kossow" Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2011 7:56 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: WTD: 8-inch floppy drive > On 3/2/11 10:10 AM, nico wrote: > >> What is a typical sales price for a functioning 8" drive? > > How much would it cost to get one to Philip from where you are? > > I'll cover the cost up to $100 total. $100? !!! Just an hour ago, I emailed Philip this: > One of my "probably-never" projects is this 8" disk drive in a PDP-11 > simulation. It is a Tandon 848E, a "half-height" model. > I also have that hard to find (?) 6-pin AMP power supply connector! > > I am in The Netherlands, so shipping would not be too expensive, but > still something as the drive weighs a bit. I can take a few pictures of > all > sides. The drive looks cosmetically very good, and AFAIK complete. > Yes, I have to say "untested" ... but if you explain me how, I can do some > simple tests here. > > I am not looking for $700, that is ridiculous. Not even $50 (would be nice > though ...) Just make an offer. I seem to remember that I had a second > one, in lesser shape. From shawn.t.rutledge at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 13:43:24 2011 From: shawn.t.rutledge at gmail.com (Shawn Rutledge) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 12:43:24 -0700 Subject: complete Sun NeWS kit available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 9:13 PM, Shawn Rutledge wrote: > I was interested in playing with NeWS (a Postscript-based windowing > system from Sun, predating X) and acquired this stuff from a member of > this list. ?I never got around to doing anything with it. ?There are 3 > SparcStations (2 IPCs and an IPX), a NeWSPrinter (laser printer which > relies on the host to do the Postscript rendering), the NeWS 2.1 > Programmer's Guide, some CDs that can be used to reinstall the OS if > necessary, and a suitable external CD drive. ?Any reasonable offer > plus shipping costs will be accepted, since we need to move soon, and > I don't see the point anymore of hanging on to something I never found > the time to explore properly. BTW I'm in Phoenix, AZ. As you might expect the shipping weight will be kindof high, but it all shipped in one large box when I got it. I might break it up into a couple of boxes if shipping turns out cheaper that way. From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 13:55:55 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 13:55:55 -0600 Subject: complete Sun NeWS kit available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 1:43 PM, Shawn Rutledge wrote: > On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 9:13 PM, Shawn Rutledge > wrote: >> I was interested in playing with NeWS (a Postscript-based windowing >> system from Sun, predating X) and acquired this stuff from a member of >> this list. ?I never got around to doing anything with it. ?There are 3 >> SparcStations (2 IPCs and an IPX), a NeWSPrinter (laser printer which >> relies on the host to do the Postscript rendering), the NeWS 2.1 >> Programmer's Guide, some CDs that can be used to reinstall the OS if >> necessary, and a suitable external CD drive. ?Any reasonable offer What OS is this? Has it been imaged and archived somewhere? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 2 12:52:39 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 18:52:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: WTD: 8-inch floppy drive In-Reply-To: from "Geoffrey Reed" at Mar 1, 11 02:50:19 pm Message-ID: > > IIRC the tandon TM-848-2 drives use 24VDC motors... I always liked them > better than the shugart drives. > I did say 'Most' 8" drives have AC mains motors, not 'all' :-). 24V DC motors with some kind of electrronic speed control was an option on some other drives too. I have a pair of drives made by a company called 'Elcomatic' nad according to the service manual, a 24V DC motor was an option on those. Mine have 240V 50Hz motors though. One other nice featuroe of these drives is a slotted optoswtich near the head carrarriage that changes state at cylinder 43. This is used (I think it's a jumper-selected option) to reduce the write current, so you don't need to provide the TG43 signal from the controller. Very handy if you're using them with a PC/AT controller ;-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 2 13:31:11 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 19:31:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Free: Stack of Victor or Sirius floppy disks In-Reply-To: <4D6DF900.8080901@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Mar 2, 11 08:00:00 am Message-ID: > > On 02/03/11 03:36, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Send one to Philip. But, don't tell him what's special about the format > > until he ferrets it out! :-) > > If memory serves, it's a GCR based format recorded in 9-zone Z-CLV. > Constant bit density mode, in other words. > > Of course, the bloody technical reference manual is missing almost all > the relevant figures, and provides no details about the GCR coding > scheme other than the sync pattern (lots an' lots o' 1s -- how predictable). I can tell you the controller PCB schematic is almost identical to the relevant bits of the Commodore 8050 (not suprising, given the designer). I have no idea if the contents of the encoder/decoder ROM are the same though, and that you would need to know. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 2 13:11:31 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 19:11:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: WTD: 8-inch floppy drive In-Reply-To: <4D6D8D0A.2080408@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Mar 2, 11 00:19:22 am Message-ID: > > On 01/03/11 19:58, Tony Duell wrote: > > AFAIK, SA801s have one PCB which includes the read/write chain and > > stepepr controlelr, etc. There is no spindle motor controller, of course. > > Indeed. The one I saw had the wires hacked off at various points (!) and > the PCB was completely gone. Something like that is worth scrap value at > best... IIRC, the connectors to the PCB on the SA801 are a SIL plug and socket for the head wires (like on many full-height 5.25" drives) and a card edge connector for everything else on the front edge of the PCB. To remove individual bits, like the index sensor, you were supplsoed to remvoe the cotnacts fdrom the femal part of this edge connector with a special tool. Quite why anyone would hack the connector off unless they though the goc plating wasworth a lot, I don;t know.... Anyway, such a drive might be useful for a spare head/stepper assembly, but I woun't pay much for it.... > > > I'd better expand on that last part becuase it may affect you buying a > > drive second-hand. Msot, (but not all) 8" drives have cpacitor-run AC > > spindle motors. Their speed is therefor set by the mains frequency. > > As you would expect with AC motors. Well, there are motors that run on AC where the speed is not determined by the frequency/ Most of them run on DC as well, thpugh. The series-wounbd 'universal' motor used in portable power tools, vacuum cleaners, etc is the obvious example. > > > I ahve seen both 15V and 230V motors in SA800s. Both will run off either > > 50Hz or 60Hz power, but turn at differnet speeds. You can use a > > transfoemr to convert the voltage, but the speed is more of a problem. > > I assume you meant "115V and 230V motors", because I've seen the SA800 I did. Sorry for the typo... > spec sheet, and IIRC it doesn't mention a 15V motor. The 115V boxen are > usually 60Hz, the 230s are usually 50Hz. Not always... I have never seen a 230V 60Hz one, but I have seen plenty of 115V 50Hz ones. They are commonly used in the UK, the motor is run from the tapped primary of the mains transformer that ppowers the rrest of the electroncis, acting as an autotransfornmer. I have certainly got some in my machines. > > This, of course, means precisely nothing if you've got a spare mains > transformer, a sine wave oscillator and a power amplifier. DIY mains > inverter anyone? :) > > > The official fix is a different motor pulley. Getting one is aproblem. Of > > coruse it's not hard to trun one if you haev a reasoanble workshop, but > > rather hander if ytou ton't. > > And the cheat is -- as I've said -- to make a homebrew sine or > modified-sine inverter. An even better way is to find a drive with a > DC-drive motor. For instance, the NEC FD1165 takes 24V and 5V in. Sure... > Direct-drive spindle motor with integrated (read: big and heavy) > flywheel and an optical-encoder speed controller. Very spiffy. It's > still a brushed motor though, and I'm hoping the brushes are in decent > nick (I'm betting they won't be easy to replace!) But probably easier to find than a custom chip for some obscure logic board :-) Do you have such a drive? > > I fear tracking down a 6-pin "Berg" power connector might be... > "interesting". The 4-pin (PC 3.5 FDD power connector) variant is widely Do you mean 3.5" here? > available, but the AMP part number I have for the 6-pin is showing as > "discontinued"... Urrgh... The normal 8" drive power connector has 2 rows of 3 pins. The cable-mounting housing is roughly H-shaped at the business end with the corssbar offset so it will only fit one way round. The socket contcats are easy to get (I am pretty sure Farnell do something that will fit). You can cover individualy ones with heat-shrink and putsh themonto the right pins of the connector. Just make sure they are the right pins :-) For I have a kludge, and a good kludge too :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 2 13:14:47 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 19:14:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: WTD: 8-inch floppy drive In-Reply-To: <4D6D9EEB.7030301@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Mar 1, 11 05:35:39 pm Message-ID: > controller, since it uses an AC motor. If you spend time looking for an > SA801 with an intact spindle motor controller, you'll be looking for a > very long time. I have this crazy idea to make a crystal-controllerd oscillator to drive the spindle motor (much on the lines that Philip (?) suggested, a pseudo-sine wave oscillator driving a power amplifier and step-up transformer) just so I can say I have an SA801 with a spindle motor controller :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 2 14:31:48 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 20:31:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: <4D6E6868.1030605@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Mar 2, 11 07:55:20 am Message-ID: > > I have seen recently some 'request' for an hp 9000 serie 200 emulator > > .... here it is : > > > > http://sites.google.com/site/olivier2smet2/hp_projects/hp98x6 > > > > > PC only, no sources, yet ANOTHER implementation of CS80/Amigo > > yawn.. YEs, I agree with you on that point. It does upset me (a little) when people take a lot of frre information from the community but are mot prepared to provide their work in source code form. I am much more likely to provide inromation, do tests on the real hardware, etc for somebody who is writing an open-cource emulator. In fact it I know it is not goign to be open-source I am unlikely to do anything... > > Think I'll just continue to sit on all the software CHM got from HP for > the 9000 series until someone releases one in SOURCE FORM. That is a littlke unfair on all those people who have real HP9000/200 machines and still run them. -tony From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Mar 2 14:53:24 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 09:53:24 +1300 Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - Problem persists References: Message-ID: <397843A5960240639FA6A846AB219275@massey.ac.nz> Some more progress but not good news... Unfortunately replacing those caps and the TA7259 IC hasn't made any difference to the 400k drives. The symptom (motor refuses to start when the spindle is in a certain position) is still the same in both. I don't have a circuit diagram and it may be that there are some other bits and pieces there, compared to later Sony drives. In one of the drives, if the spindle is in a position where the motor starts, it will read disks...but not well. It's very slow to load things. I imagine there are lots of retries, maybe because the spindle isn't spinning at the speed it should. In the second drive, even when the motor does rotate, it does not load programs. It could be that this second (rather more tattered) drive has more than one issue. Oh well... it was worth a shot. Much obliged for the help, Tony and others. I'm not sure how further I can go with it. Anyone have any other ideas as to what might cause this problem? Maybe the motor windings themselves are just shot. The good news is I've now got a working X/Profile emulator substituted for my non-working Widget. So I have one Lisa 2/10 up and fully running (with a substituted good 400k floppy drive from the other Lisa 2). It would be nice to have both Lisas up and running completely though as I'm so close... Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Stewart" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, February 14, 2011 8:47 PM Subject: Re: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive -READINGS! > Found those capacitors. Yes, they were indeed the trio that were > clustered together. All the -ve sides clustered together, and the +ve > wired to a motor output connection just as you said. > > I spent tonight extracting the IC and the capactors. It went surprisingly > smoothly considering this is probably the smallest circuit board I've > worked on in terms of closeness of tracks. > > Now to just wait until the ICs arrive from Hong Kong. I hope it's not by > slow boat. I've ordered and paid for the ICs but have yet to hear any > kind of acknowledgement apart from the standard paypal reciept. > > I've also bought an X/Profile emulator. Luckily I've managed to sell one > of my Osborne 1s for $340 NZ (about $255US) to help part-pay for it! > > So, here's hoping BOTH Lisas will be up and running 100% soon!. An > ominous sign in the Lisa 2 though. Yesterday it would just suddenly > switch off I was testing this drive. A little jiggling and waiting a > while, then a switch on and it would suddenly go again. Could be > something loose, or could be the PSU starting to give up the ghost. I > have a spare working (I think) PSU, so I might have to call that into > service....or attempt a repair if that's indeed the problem. > > Maintence/repair is an ongoing process with this old iron isn't it. > > Terry > >> Take a look at one of those HP drive schermatics I mentioned. If you are >> working from one of 'my' schematics, oyu want ot look at the sheet >> entitled 'Sony Floppy Drive Spindle Motor Sheet (3)'. You'll see the >> TA7259 chip. Connected to the inputs are the 3 hall devices H1-H3. >> Connected ot the outpus are the 3 motor windings -- notice how the other >> end of these windings are all linked together, but go nowhere else -- >> that's the 'star' (or 'wye') configuration I was talking about. And just >> to the left of the widnigns are 3 capacitors C11, C12, C13 wired in >> another star circuit. >> >> I have no idea what the capacitors will be labelled on your PCB. They are >> likely to be a simular value. See if you can find 3 cpaacitors, arounf >> 10uF each, with the +ve side wired to a motor output connection on the >> chip and the 3 -ve sides all linked together. It might be the 3 >> capacitors cludered just to the right of the chip in the photo, it might >> not. You cna use the resistance range of your multimeter to check what is >> connected to what, of course. >> >> Alas without the PCB in front of me (and thus being able to trace >> connections) I don;t think I cna be more definite. >> >> -tony >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3442 - Release Date: 02/13/11 >> > > From nico at Farumdata.dk Wed Mar 2 15:03:08 2011 From: nico at Farumdata.dk (nico) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 22:03:08 +0100 Subject: WTD: 8-inch floppy drive Message-ID: <201103022203.AA485032500@Farumdata.dk> ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Al Kossow Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 10:56:28 -0800 >On 3/2/11 10:10 AM, nico wrote: > >> What is a typical sales price for a functioning 8" drive? > >How much would it cost to get one to Philip from where you are? > >I'll cover the cost up to $100 total. > Just checked the going mail rates. If the weight is up to 5 kilo, a package will cost $ 55. They take $ 5 for an extra kilo. For an extra 18$, I can send 10 kilo. The heavier, the "cheaper" Would it be an idea with 2 drives, as the second would be almost for free, postage wise. If I send only 1 drive, I will in effect sell it for 45$, which is a but cheap BTW, I still have the diagrams for the Qualstar 3412S you asked about years ago. Still interested? Nico From olivier.2.smet at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 15:33:45 2011 From: olivier.2.smet at gmail.com (Olivier De Smet) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 22:33:45 +0100 Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: References: <4D6E6868.1030605@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: If you look closely when 'RUNNING' the program, you will see a GPL notice .... I'm actually commenting heavilly the source before release it .... Btw I have already released the FULL source of an HP85/86 emulator .... Before yawning ... use what we 'gave' you for free even a 'binary' : I'm not obliged to put this program on the net afterall !!! Olivier (not happy) 2011/3/2 Tony Duell : >> > I have seen recently some 'request' for an hp 9000 serie 200 emulator >> > .... here it is : >> > >> > http://sites.google.com/site/olivier2smet2/hp_projects/hp98x6 >> > >> >> >> PC only, no sources, yet ANOTHER implementation of CS80/Amigo >> >> yawn.. > > YEs, I agree with you on that point. It does upset me (a little) when > people take a lot of frre information from the community but are mot > prepared to provide their work in source code form. > > I am much more likely to provide inromation, do tests on the real > hardware, etc for somebody who is writing an open-cource emulator. In > fact it I know it is not goign to be open-source I am unlikely to do > anything... > > >> >> Think I'll just continue to sit on all the software CHM got from HP for >> the 9000 series until someone releases one in SOURCE FORM. > > That is a littlke unfair on all those people who have real HP9000/200 > machines and still run them. > > -tony > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 2 15:44:46 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 16:44:46 -0500 Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: References: <4D6E6868.1030605@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4D6EBA4E.2070602@neurotica.com> On 3/2/11 4:33 PM, Olivier De Smet wrote: > If you look closely when 'RUNNING' the program, you will see a GPL notice .... > I'm actually commenting heavilly the source before release it .... Excellent. > Btw I have already released the FULL source of an HP85/86 emulator .... Neat, I would love to see that! Does it run on anything other than Windows? > Before yawning ... use what we 'gave' you for free even a 'binary' : > I'm not obliged to put this program on the net afterall !!! I thank you for your efforts anyway, but I have to agree with Al at least to a point. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spedraja at ono.com Wed Mar 2 15:47:29 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 22:47:29 +0100 Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: References: <4D6E6868.1030605@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Great. I should like to put an eye on the source code when you have it ready. Regards Sergio 2011/3/2 Olivier De Smet > If you look closely when 'RUNNING' the program, you will see a GPL notice > .... > I'm actually commenting heavilly the source before release it .... > Btw I have already released the FULL source of an HP85/86 emulator .... > > Before yawning ... use what we 'gave' you for free even a 'binary' : > I'm not obliged to put this program on the net afterall !!! > > Olivier (not happy) > From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Mar 2 16:09:13 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 23:09:13 +0100 Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: References: <4D6E6868.1030605@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Mar 2, 11 07:55:20 am Message-ID: <000d01cbd926$7a71bcd0$6f553670$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: woensdag 2 maart 2011 21:32 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: HP 9000 series 200 emulator > > > > I have seen recently some 'request' for an hp 9000 serie 200 > > > emulator .... here it is : > > > > > > http://sites.google.com/site/olivier2smet2/hp_projects/hp98x6 > > > > > > > > > PC only, no sources, yet ANOTHER implementation of CS80/Amigo > > > > yawn.. > > YEs, I agree with you on that point. It does upset me (a little) when people take a > lot of frre information from the community but are mot prepared to provide > their work in source code form. > > I am much more likely to provide inromation, do tests on the real hardware, etc > for somebody who is writing an open-cource emulator. In fact it I know it is not > goign to be open-source I am unlikely to do anything... > > > > > > Think I'll just continue to sit on all the software CHM got from HP > > for the 9000 series until someone releases one in SOURCE FORM. > > That is a littlke unfair on all those people who have real HP9000/200 machines > and still run them. I agree with this statement !! > -tony -Rik From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 16:10:15 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 17:10:15 -0500 Subject: TG43 signal and 8" drives on commodity hardware (was Re: WTD: 8-inch floppy drive) Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 1:52 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > One other nice featuroe of these drives is a slotted optoswtich near the > head carrarriage that changes state at cylinder 43. This is used (I think > it's a jumper-selected option) to reduce the write current, so you don't > need to provide the TG43 signal from the controller. Very handy if you're > using them with a PC/AT controller ;-) I know it's easy to generate this signal with an inexpensive microcontroller, but I'm curious what drives have this feature. I have a TM848 (can't remember if it's -1 or -2 - I'd probably have to pull it from the Dataram Qbus chassis it's in to check, but since it's meant to emulate an RX02, it's *probably* a TM848-1) that I was planning on rigging to a PC-class machine at some point to image my pile of RX01 and box of CP/M 8" floppies. Of course with all the DEC gear I have, I might as well look into using vtserver to pull down RX01 _and_ RX02 images from a real RX02 drive, but I still have plans to build a PC-based multi-media floppy imaging box, so I'm keeping my eye out for a preferred model of 8" drive for that purpose. So far, I really only know a little bit about the SA800s and the TM848s (and the Calcomps used in RX01s and RX02s, but I'm not likely to hang one of those off of a PC). Anyone have any recommendations for good drives to use with PCs? -ethan From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Mar 2 16:13:34 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 23:13:34 +0100 Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: References: <4D6E6868.1030605@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <000e01cbd927$16002010$42006030$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Olivier De Smet > Verzonden: woensdag 2 maart 2011 22:34 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Onderwerp: Re: HP 9000 series 200 emulator > > If you look closely when 'RUNNING' the program, you will see a GPL notice .... > I'm actually commenting heavilly the source before release it .... > Btw I have already released the FULL source of an HP85/86 emulator .... > > Before yawning ... use what we 'gave' you for free even a 'binary' : > I'm not obliged to put this program on the net afterall !!! > > Olivier (not happy) Don't be too unhappy they are a little grumpy but they don't bite ...;-) Olivier it's nice work, and I know the HP85 emulator which works very fine.. -Rik From a50mhzham at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 16:17:38 2011 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 16:17:38 -0600 Subject: My posts Message-ID: <4d6ec27a.4d8ee50a.2403.10e3@mx.google.com> I believe I've sent two posts to the list this week. I haven't seen them, nor has anyone replied or cited them. (Blows across microphone) Is this thing on? 29 . [Philosphy] "For every complex question, there is a simple answer--and it's wrong." --H.L. Mencken NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 17:40:19 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 18:40:19 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 on FGPA (was Re: MFM to IDE was RE SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project) Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 3:10 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > How about a whole PDP11 including the IDE interface? Sounds fun to me. > http://www.heeltoe.com/download/pdp11/README.html That's a fun little project. Looking at the size of it, a little 2.5" IDE drive (or CF) would go well with it - small enough to make a native 16-bit portable (one of my long-term frivolous projects is marrying a wee dumb terminal to a wee PDP-8 or PDP-11 for a laptop-sized environment - easier to load into the car than the real thing. The SBC6120+IOB6120 is a good core for one version of that, this could be another, using a Spare Time Gizmos VT-4 or similar). -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 2 17:44:11 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 16:44:11 -0700 Subject: 6805 equipment pulls Message-ID: Hi, A neighbouring hacker space has access to some Motorola 6805 equipment pulls. These are 6800s with some amount of on-chip RAM, ROM and IO. I have no idea what the ROM might contain or if you can circumvent the ROM with your own code in off-chip RAM. They don't have any plans for these chips. If you are familiar with them, we'd like to learn more about them. If you need some for your project, just let me know. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 2 17:45:59 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 15:45:59 -0800 Subject: TG43 signal and 8" drives on commodity hardware (was Re: WTD: 8-inch floppy drive) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D6ED6B7.9020306@bitsavers.org> On 3/2/11 2:10 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Anyone have any recommendations > for good drives to use with PCs? > I've been using a QumeTrak 242 (Ye-Data 180) exclusively for 8" recovery for a couple of years now. From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 17:50:46 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 17:50:46 -0600 Subject: Historical Mainframe Security Docs Available In-Reply-To: <4D66E43E.5010501@att.net> References: <67470.79685.qm@web35301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4D66E43E.5010501@att.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 5:05 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > Lee > > I'll let someone else jump in and claim the hardcopy docs... ?But a digital > set?... ? . ?Any chance a copy of that would be available? Lee's collection of Mainframe Security docs has been posted at the ChiClassicComp doc archive: http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing%2FIBM/MainframeSecurity Enjoy! -- jht From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Mar 2 17:57:11 2011 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 18:57:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: TG43 signal and 8" drives on commodity hardware (was Re: WTD: 8-inch floppy drive) In-Reply-To: <4D6ED6B7.9020306@bitsavers.org> References: <4D6ED6B7.9020306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Mar 2011, Al Kossow wrote: > On 3/2/11 2:10 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Anyone have any recommendations >> for good drives to use with PCs? >> > > I've been using a QumeTrak 242 (Ye-Data 180) exclusively for 8" recovery for > a couple of years now. I'm using a Tandon TM848-02 with a D Bit FDADAP connector board. It isn't strictly necessary for the 848, but it's handy. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 2 18:18:21 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 16:18:21 -0800 Subject: TG43 signal and 8" drives on commodity hardware (was Re: WTD: 8-inch floppy drive) In-Reply-To: <4D6ED6B7.9020306@bitsavers.org> References: , <4D6ED6B7.9020306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4D6E6DCD.3415.14CC99A@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Mar 2011 at 15:45, Al Kossow wrote: > On 3/2/11 2:10 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Anyone have any recommendations > > for good drives to use with PCs? > > > > I've been using a QumeTrak 242 (Ye-Data 180) exclusively for 8" > recovery for a couple of years now. Qume DT/8 here. Great drive. Also a couple of Siemens FDD-200 drives--one set up to read hard-sectored and filter out the sector marks (providing only index), the other set "raw". --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 2 18:21:35 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 16:21:35 -0800 Subject: TG43 signal and 8" drives on commodity hardware (was Re: WTD: 8-inch floppy drive) In-Reply-To: <4D6ED6B7.9020306@bitsavers.org> References: , <4D6ED6B7.9020306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4D6E6E8F.25300.14FBF0C@cclist.sydex.com> On those Tandon 848s, note that the on-board regulator that drops 24V to 12 is given to overheating. If your drive doesn't have a parallel pass resistor across the 7812 regulator, it might be a good idea to install one. Part of the field change was also to include an electrolytic cap after the regulator--about 100 uF at 50V. Often, these go toes-up, so if an 848's not working, start there. --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Mar 2 18:46:25 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 16:46:25 -0800 Subject: Possible Security risk In-Reply-To: <4D6ED6B7.9020306@bitsavers.org> References: , <4D6ED6B7.9020306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Hi I just opened a post from someone named TOM and the subject was: My posts Semitec stopped it from doing some type of download. Read with caution. Dwight From doc at vaxen.net Wed Mar 2 18:49:45 2011 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 18:49:45 -0600 Subject: Possible Security risk In-Reply-To: References: , <4D6ED6B7.9020306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4D6EE5A9.4010003@vaxen.net> On 3/2/11 6:46 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi > I just opened a post from someone named TOM and the > subject was: My posts > Semitec stopped it from doing some type of download. > Read with caution. As far as I know, the classiccmp server still strips attachemnts. Even with full HTML enabled, the "My posts" email shows no binary code or attachment here. Doc From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 2 18:57:03 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 16:57:03 -0800 Subject: Possible Security risk In-Reply-To: References: , <4D6ED6B7.9020306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: At 4:46 PM -0800 3/2/11, dwight elvey wrote: >Hi > I just opened a post from someone named TOM and the >subject was: My posts > Semitec stopped it from doing some type of download. >Read with caution. >Dwight > Seems like a totally innocent post, it's one of two prior to this I'd actually bothered to look at today. I wonder if the problem was the Apple character in the .sig, or if my ISP stripped part of it. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From a50mhzham at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 18:59:16 2011 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 18:59:16 -0600 Subject: Possible Security risk In-Reply-To: References: <4D6ED6B7.9020306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4d6ee7f2.d44de50a.2fd5.1770@mx.google.com> That was me. Tom Peters, Milwaukee area. Ask Al K who I am. There was no attachment, but I did send it in HTML format. Ooops. I won't do that any more. -T At 06:46 PM 3/2/2011, you wrote: >Hi > I just opened a post from someone named TOM and the >subject was: My posts > Semitec stopped it from doing some type of download. >Read with caution. >Dwight > 650 . [Faith] Many people want the benefits of the church, but choose not to be of benefit to the church. -- Author Unknown NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 2 19:06:22 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 18:06:22 -0700 Subject: 6805 equipment pulls In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D6EE98E.1090601@brouhaha.com> Richard wrote: > A neighbouring hacker space has access to some Motorola 6805 equipment > pulls. These are 6800s with some amount of on-chip RAM, ROM and IO. The 6805 instruction set is sort of similar to the 6800, but it certainly isn't a 6800. > I have no idea what the ROM might contain or if you can circumvent the > ROM with your own code in off-chip RAM. Most if not all masked-ROM 6805 and 68HC05 parts don't provide a documented way to use external program memory. (I say documented because there are undocumented test modes activated by putting a supervoltage on a pin.) To determine whether the parts are of any use, the full part number would be required. Eric From Wayne.Smith at warnerbros.com Wed Mar 2 10:48:48 2011 From: Wayne.Smith at warnerbros.com (Smith, Wayne) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 08:48:48 -0800 Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Truly astounding work - thanks for doing this and for sharing it. Wayne Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 13:17:19 +0100 From: Olivier De Smet Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi, I have seen recently some 'request' for an hp 9000 serie 200 emulator .... here it is : http://sites.google.com/site/olivier2smet2/hp_projects/hp98x6 Olivier From bdamer at digitalspace.com Wed Mar 2 18:39:24 2011 From: bdamer at digitalspace.com (Bruce Damer) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 19:39:24 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 91, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201103030039.p230dQPE061163@billY.EZWIND.NET> Re: Giant Mac collection available... Good idea Evan, thanks! b From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Mar 2 19:34:49 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 17:34:49 -0800 Subject: 6805 equipment pulls In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <38a6c661425d97015d89cecf5ed5e293@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Mar 2, at 3:44 PM, Richard wrote: > A neighbouring hacker space has access to some Motorola 6805 equipment > pulls. These are 6800s with some amount of on-chip RAM, ROM and IO. > I have no idea what the ROM might contain or if you can circumvent the > ROM with your own code in off-chip RAM. > > They don't have any plans for these chips. If you are familiar with > them, we'd like to learn more about them. If you need some for your > project, just let me know. I have here the 1984 Motorola "Single-Chip Microcomputer Data" book, which covers the 6805 family. There are a dozen or two variations of the 6805. If you provide the full part number I can look it up. From an initial look at the the book however, it appears most of the variations are mask-programmed and I'm not seeing any opportunity to address or substitute external ROM. There are some EPROM (68705, windowed of course) and a couple of EEPROM (6805K2,3) variations. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 2 19:40:30 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 18:40:30 -0700 Subject: 6805 equipment pulls In-Reply-To: <4D6EE98E.1090601@brouhaha.com> References: <4D6EE98E.1090601@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: In article <4D6EE98E.1090601 at brouhaha.com>, Eric Smith writes: > Richard wrote: > > A neighbouring hacker space has access to some Motorola 6805 equipment > > pulls. These are 6800s with some amount of on-chip RAM, ROM and IO. > > The 6805 instruction set is sort of similar to the 6800, but it > certainly isn't a 6800. I couldn't find much about 6805s, certainly not a datasheet. Wikipedia told me the stuff that I posted. > To determine whether the parts are of any use, the full part number > would be required. try this: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 2 19:42:04 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 18:42:04 -0700 Subject: 6805 equipment pulls In-Reply-To: <38a6c661425d97015d89cecf5ed5e293@cs.ubc.ca> References: <38a6c661425d97015d89cecf5ed5e293@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: In article <38a6c661425d97015d89cecf5ed5e293 at cs.ubc.ca>, Brent Hilpert writes: > I have here the 1984 Motorola "Single-Chip Microcomputer Data" book, > which covers the 6805 family. There are a dozen or two variations of > the 6805. If you provide the full part number I can look it up. Hopefully the image link I posted will help. > From an initial look at the the book however, it appears most of the > variations are mask-programmed and I'm not seeing any opportunity to > address or substitute external ROM. There are some EPROM (68705, > windowed of course) and a couple of EEPROM (6805K2,3) variations. It would be really helpful to know if these chips can be reprogrammed at all. If not, they're headed for the recycle bin unless someone here wants them. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jws at jwsss.com Wed Mar 2 19:55:03 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 17:55:03 -0800 Subject: complete Sun NeWS kit available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D6EF4F7.1070709@jwsss.com> sun cut it out somewhere between solaris 2.1 and 2.5 I think. The latest does not support it. I didn't follow sun much in the sparc world after 2.8, but somewhere they started killing off support first for some sbus cards, then for the entire architectures (in other words such as SS2 SS1, and so forth). I was at sun in 1994-1995, which corresponds to 2.4 and 2.5 time and they definitely were supporting them then, so an old copy of solaris would be a starting point. I imagine the news cd's that Shawn has (is he the original poster) should have that in their documentation. I don't know if you could load and run it w/o license keys though, they thought they had a tiger by the tail and made it a pain in the butt to run even if you were inside sun. but it was fast and cheap, and a very nice printer subsystem. I'd check whether you have a supply of the toner cartridges or an idea how to get toner into what you have though. they go through it quite quickly if you use them because they can move so much data to paper. Jim On 3/2/2011 11:55 AM, Jason T wrote: > On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 1:43 PM, Shawn Rutledge > wrote: >> On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 9:13 PM, Shawn Rutledge >> wrote: >>> I was interested in playing with NeWS (a Postscript-based windowing >>> system from Sun, predating X) and acquired this stuff from a member of >>> this list. I never got around to doing anything with it. There are 3 >>> SparcStations (2 IPCs and an IPX), a NeWSPrinter (laser printer which >>> relies on the host to do the Postscript rendering), the NeWS 2.1 >>> Programmer's Guide, some CDs that can be used to reinstall the OS if >>> necessary, and a suitable external CD drive. Any reasonable offer > What OS is this? Has it been imaged and archived somewhere? > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 2 19:55:44 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 20:55:44 -0500 Subject: 6805 equipment pulls In-Reply-To: <38a6c661425d97015d89cecf5ed5e293@cs.ubc.ca> References: <38a6c661425d97015d89cecf5ed5e293@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4D6EF520.5010604@neurotica.com> On 3/2/11 8:34 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > From an initial look at the the book however, it appears most of the > variations are mask-programmed and I'm not seeing any opportunity to > address or substitute external ROM. There are some EPROM (68705, > windowed of course) and a couple of EEPROM (6805K2,3) variations. Hmm, the 68705 is the EPROM family version of the 6805 family? I wasn't aware of that. I have several 68705 chips kicking around and haven't done anything with them yet. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 20:00:08 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 21:00:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: TG43 signal and 8" drives on commodity hardware (was Re: WTD: 8-inch floppy drive) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Mar 2011, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Anyone have any recommendations > for good drives to use with PCs? Panasonic YE-380 1/2-height. Very quiet and trouble-free. I believe these were the final generation of 8" drives - used mostly in medical imaging equipment. -- From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Mar 2 20:09:09 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 18:09:09 -0800 Subject: 6805 equipment pulls In-Reply-To: References: <38a6c661425d97015d89cecf5ed5e293@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4dece01a1688a435ac02afa322112d3f@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Mar 2, at 5:42 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article <38a6c661425d97015d89cecf5ed5e293 at cs.ubc.ca>, > Brent Hilpert writes: > >> I have here the 1984 Motorola "Single-Chip Microcomputer Data" book, >> which covers the 6805 family. There are a dozen or two variations of >> the 6805. If you provide the full part number I can look it up. > > Hopefully the image link I posted will help. > >> From an initial look at the the book however, it appears most of the >> variations are mask-programmed and I'm not seeing any opportunity to >> address or substitute external ROM. There are some EPROM (68705, >> windowed of course) and a couple of EEPROM (6805K2,3) variations. > > It would be really helpful to know if these chips can be reprogrammed > at all. If not, they're headed for the recycle bin unless someone > here wants them. Fortune shines in a small way. The MC146805E2 is a CMOS 6805 with no internal ROM. 8 pins are multiplexed data and low order-address (A0-A7), another 5 pins are higher-order-address (A8-A12). There are an address strobe pin and data strobe pin for demuxing. Other major features: - 112 bytes internal RAM - 16 programmable bidir IO port lines. - internal 8-bit timer and 7-bit prescaler. - on chip oscillator I see there is only one accumulator in the 6805s, so - as Eric was hinting at - the base CPU is paired down from the 6800. Haven't checked whether it is op-code compatible. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Mar 2 20:15:07 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 18:15:07 -0800 Subject: 6805 equipment pulls In-Reply-To: <4D6EF520.5010604@neurotica.com> References: <38a6c661425d97015d89cecf5ed5e293@cs.ubc.ca> <4D6EF520.5010604@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <11d8173786babc13107626efdca86b02@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Mar 2, at 5:55 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 3/2/11 8:34 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> From an initial look at the the book however, it appears most of the >> variations are mask-programmed and I'm not seeing any opportunity to >> address or substitute external ROM. There are some EPROM (68705, >> windowed of course) and a couple of EEPROM (6805K2,3) variations. > > Hmm, the 68705 is the EPROM family version of the 6805 family? I > wasn't aware of that. I have several 68705 chips kicking around and > haven't done anything with them yet. > Yes, from the book, there are (at least) R, U and P variations (68705R.., 68705U.., 68705P..). The U version has an A/D converter. I'll look it up if you have the part number handy. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 2 20:41:52 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 21:41:52 -0500 Subject: 6805 equipment pulls In-Reply-To: <11d8173786babc13107626efdca86b02@cs.ubc.ca> References: <38a6c661425d97015d89cecf5ed5e293@cs.ubc.ca> <4D6EF520.5010604@neurotica.com> <11d8173786babc13107626efdca86b02@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4D6EFFF0.5080805@neurotica.com> On 3/2/11 9:15 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>> From an initial look at the the book however, it appears most of the >>> variations are mask-programmed and I'm not seeing any opportunity to >>> address or substitute external ROM. There are some EPROM (68705, >>> windowed of course) and a couple of EEPROM (6805K2,3) variations. >> >> Hmm, the 68705 is the EPROM family version of the 6805 family? I >> wasn't aware of that. I have several 68705 chips kicking around and >> haven't done anything with them yet. >> > Yes, from the book, there are (at least) R, U and P variations > (68705R.., 68705U.., 68705P..). The U version has an A/D converter. I'll > look it up if you have the part number handy. I don't; it's at home in FL and I'm in WV for the next several weeks at least. I have several 40-pin and one 28-pin windowed DIP 68705-family chips. I'll hit you up for that info when I get home, or more likely, when I sit down to hack on one of them. Thanks! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Mar 2 21:40:24 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 19:40:24 -0800 Subject: 6805 equipment pulls In-Reply-To: References: <38a6c661425d97015d89cecf5ed5e293@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <3896032baa46ddcd6261f3fa13d44255@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Mar 2, at 5:42 PM, Richard wrote: > It would be really helpful to know if these chips can be reprogrammed > at all. If not, they're headed for the recycle bin unless someone > here wants them. I was going to offer to send a photocopy of the pages from the book, but no need: http://www.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/pdf/356904/MOTOROLA/ MC146805E2.html Do you know what they came out of and how many of them there are? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 00:22:33 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 01:22:33 -0500 Subject: TG43 signal and 8" drives on commodity hardware (was Re: WTD: 8-inch floppy drive) In-Reply-To: <4D6E6E8F.25300.14FBF0C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D6ED6B7.9020306@bitsavers.org> <4D6E6E8F.25300.14FBF0C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 7:21 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On those Tandon 848s, note that the on-board regulator that drops 24V > to 12 is given to overheating.... Good tip. Thanks. I know the drive isn't inert, but I do recall that it didn't seem to be reliable when it was new. I'll definitely check that part of the board when I dig it out. -ethan From spedraja at ono.com Thu Mar 3 01:10:34 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 08:10:34 +0100 Subject: Historical Mainframe Security Docs Available In-Reply-To: References: <67470.79685.qm@web35301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4D66E43E.5010501@att.net> Message-ID: Good job. Sergio 2011/3/3 Jason T > On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 5:05 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > > Lee > > > > I'll let someone else jump in and claim the hardcopy docs... But a > digital > > set?... . Any chance a copy of that would be available? > > Lee's collection of Mainframe Security docs has been posted at the > ChiClassicComp doc archive: > > > http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing%2FIBM/MainframeSecurity > > Enjoy! > > -- > jht > From olivier.2.smet at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 01:45:16 2011 From: olivier.2.smet at gmail.com (Olivier De Smet) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 08:45:16 +0100 Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: <4D6E6868.1030605@bitsavers.org> References: <4D6E6868.1030605@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: 2011/3/2 Al Kossow : > On 3/2/11 4:17 AM, Olivier De Smet wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I have seen recently some 'request' for an hp 9000 serie 200 emulator >> .... here it is : >> >> http://sites.google.com/site/olivier2smet2/hp_projects/hp98x6 >> > > > PC only, no sources, yet ANOTHER implementation of CS80/Amigo Yes, actually PC only ... but soon you could get the C (not C++, not even C#) source to port it to other architectures (Btw, I used the free tools from Microsoft, so there is no added cost to compile it) As I don't find any free Amigo/SS80 implementation, yes I do it myself ... (I implemented only SS80 part of CS80 protocol, it was enough) For other arch, I will port it myself to Xillinx FPGA in verilog later, as I have done for a HP86 emulator. You can get C sources at : http://sites.google.com/site/olivier2smet2/hpseries80 and verilog sources at : http://sites.google.com/site/olivier2smet2/hpseries80/fpga-hp86b I hope this will help you to port to other archs > > yawn.. > > Think I'll just continue to sit on all the software CHM got from HP for > the 9000 series until someone releases one in SOURCE FORM. > > I don't put the source now, because it's a 0.01 release (see when running binary) only able to run basic and pascal since 3 weeks. At least 20 years later you could run some stuff without having the real machine (I don't have the real machine myself) Olivier > From spedraja at ono.com Thu Mar 3 02:14:05 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 09:14:05 +0100 Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: References: <4D6E6868.1030605@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > I don't put the source now, because it's a 0.01 release (see when > running binary) only able to run basic and pascal since 3 weeks. > > Of course this is better than nothing. > At least 20 years later you could run some stuff without having the > real machine (I don't have the real machine myself) > At least for me this fact (the lack of a real machine) is remarkable :-) Thanks again. Sergio From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Mar 3 03:58:51 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 10:58:51 +0100 (CET) Subject: Free: Stack of Victor or Sirius floppy disks In-Reply-To: <4D6E7B39.3020807@philpem.me.uk> References: <76402.43965.qm@web110603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20110301193447.A95225@shell.lmi.net> <4D6E6702.8040903@bitsavers.org> <4D6E768A.2030708@philpem.me.uk> <4D6E7B39.3020807@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Mar 2011, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Every 4-bit nibble becomes a 5-bit GCR block, per this table: > > input output > 0 01010 0x0a > 1 01011 0x0b > 2 10010 0x12 > 3 10011 0x13 > 4 01110 0x0e > 5 01111 0x0f > 6 10110 0x16 > 7 10111 0x17 > 8 01001 0x09 > 9 11001 0x19 > a 11010 0x1a > b 11011 0x1b > c 01101 0x0d > d 11101 0x1d > e 11110 0x1e > f 10101 0x15 Are you sure it works for the Victor? At least the table is the same for the Amiga and Apple GCR formats according to http://bandwidthco.com/whitepapers/compforensics/datarecovery/hardware/electronics/Amiga%20Disk%20Encoding%20Schemes.pdf Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Mar 3 04:05:23 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 11:05:23 +0100 (CET) Subject: WTD: 8-inch floppy drive In-Reply-To: <4D6E92DC.2090908@bitsavers.org> References: <201103021910.AA99942712@Farumdata.dk> <4D6E92DC.2090908@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Mar 2011, Al Kossow wrote: > On 3/2/11 10:10 AM, nico wrote: >> What is a typical sales price for a functioning 8" drive? > I'll cover the cost up to $100 total. There were dozens of 8" drives that CHM left at Castrop-Rauxel, so I'd say they aren't worth that much. I wouldn't pay more than 10 EUR e.g. on a flea market. Christian From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Mar 3 07:53:31 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2011 05:53:31 -0800 Subject: 6805 equipment pulls In-Reply-To: References: <4D6EE98E.1090601@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4D6F9D5B.3000304@brouhaha.com> Richard wrote: > You're in luck! The MC146805E2 is not a masked-ROM part; it's one of the few ROMless parts specifically designed to use external program memory. Eric From chrise at pobox.com Thu Mar 3 10:58:58 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 10:58:58 -0600 Subject: TG43 signal and 8" drives on commodity hardware (was Re: WTD: 8-inch floppy drive) In-Reply-To: <4D6E6DCD.3415.14CC99A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D6ED6B7.9020306@bitsavers.org> <4D6E6DCD.3415.14CC99A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20110303165858.GA12900@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (03/02/2011 at 04:18PM -0800), Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Also a couple of Siemens FDD-200 > drives--one set up to read hard-sectored and filter out the sector > marks (providing only index), the other set "raw". What is the theory of operation behind a hard-sector filter? I believe I have seen this done with just a one-shot but I'm not sure I understand how that eliminates only the sector marks, leaving just index? It seems like with just a one-shot, it would sync to any hole and call that index. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 3 11:22:16 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2011 09:22:16 -0800 Subject: TG43 signal and 8" drives on commodity hardware (was Re: WTD: 8-inch floppy drive) In-Reply-To: <20110303165858.GA12900@n0jcf.net> References: <4D6ED6B7.9020306@bitsavers.org>, <4D6E6DCD.3415.14CC99A@cclist.sydex.com>, <20110303165858.GA12900@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4D6F5DC8.11155.38CBFA@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Mar 2011 at 10:58, Chris Elmquist wrote: > What is the theory of operation behind a hard-sector filter? I > believe I have seen this done with just a one-shot but I'm not sure I > understand how that eliminates only the sector marks, leaving just > index? It seems like with just a one-shot, it would sync to any hole > and call that index. One of the things that makes this easy for 8" drives is that, but for a few very early types, all 8" HS floppies are 33-hole (32 sectors + index). The index on an 8" HS floppy is located midway between two sector holes. So, for example, if you use a one-shot whose output width is set to, say, 2/3rds of the time between index holes, any hole occurring under that "umbrella" must be an index--so you generate an "index" pulse. Very simple, actually. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 3 01:05:59 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 07:05:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - Problem persists In-Reply-To: <397843A5960240639FA6A846AB219275@massey.ac.nz> from "Terry Stewart" at Mar 3, 11 09:53:24 am Message-ID: > > Some more progress but not good news... > > Unfortunately replacing those caps and the TA7259 IC hasn't made any > difference to the 400k drives. The symptom (motor refuses to start when the It is, unfortunately, very hard to diagnose faults remotely, particularly on a device that I have never seen... > spindle is in a certain position) is still the same in both. I don't have a > circuit diagram and it may be that there are some other bits and pieces > there, compared to later Sony drives. I suppoe you could always reverse-engineer the drive. It can't be _that_ complicated. > > In one of the drives, if the spindle is in a position where the motor > starts, it will read disks...but not well. It's very slow to load things. > I imagine there are lots of retries, maybe because the spindle isn't > spinning at the speed it should. In the second drive, even when the motor > does rotate, it does not load programs. It could be that this second > (rather more tattered) drive has more than one issue. > > Oh well... it was worth a shot. Much obliged for the help, Tony and others. > I'm not sure how further I can go with it. > > Anyone have any other ideas as to what might cause this problem? Maybe the > motor windings themselves are just shot. I think it's very unlikely to be the windings. Didn;t we check that there was roughtly teh same resistance between each piar of potor output pins onthe vtornller IC anyeay? My guess (and it's only a guess) is that it's one of the hall-effect drvicces./ These are the little things with 4 connections at the edge of the motor can its;elf. The body of the drvice is inside the motor. They are labelled H1, H2 and H3 on the PCB I susepct I think you will ahve to dismantle the motor can next. There are 2 flexible PCB tails ('flexiprints') coming out of thit. The top one -- the one futhest from the PCB -- thet comes out of the can almost straingth towards the left side of the drive is the FG (speed sensing) coil. It's soldered to a pin header with is soldered to the PCB. Desoler this header from the PCB (no not work on the flexiprint, it is too fragile). With that free, bend up the tabs o nthe bottom and lift the housign off complete with the FG coil. Lift out the rotor. You cna now see the hall effect devices. I have no idea where you'll get replacemetns,m but those are what I would change next. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 3 01:26:07 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 07:26:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: from "Olivier De Smet" at Mar 2, 11 10:33:45 pm Message-ID: > > If you look closely when 'RUNNING' the program, you will see a GPL notice .... So you're saying I have to download a binary-only program and run it on a machine I don't own under an OS I don't have a license for to see this? In any case. I don't believe a binary-only program can be released under the GPL, certainly not under the GPL that I am familiar with. > I'm actually commenting heavilly the source before release it .... I learnt the hard way, well over 30 years ago, not to trust that vapourware will ever sxist :-). More seriously, I will be very interested to see this source code when you release it. > Btw I have already released the FULL source of an HP85/86 emulator .... > > Before yawning ... use what we 'gave' you for free even a 'binary' : Which as I have told you in private mail is totally useless to me, and to a number of other people here. On this list all the world is most definitely not a PC, caertianly not one running a proprietory OS. > I'm not obliged to put this program on the net afterall !!! Inded you are not. Just as I am not obliged to share the schematics I trace out, I am not obliged to help people track down faults, I am not obliged to do anything on this list. I do so because I happen to beleive that a community like tyhis one benefits a lot form sharing information. Nobody can know everything or do evertything. But a schematic from one member, a bit of sourc code from another, a trick form athried, and so on and soemthing actuially gets done. I have, unfortuantely, come to the conclusion that the main reason people won't release their source code for free programs written non-commercially is that they are ashamed of it. And that means I am unlikely to wanty to trust the binary, even if I can run it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 3 01:31:42 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 07:31:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TG43 signal and 8" drives on commodity hardware (was Re: WTD: In-Reply-To: <4D6ED6B7.9020306@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Mar 2, 11 03:45:59 pm Message-ID: > > On 3/2/11 2:10 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Anyone have any recommendations > > for good drives to use with PCs? > > > > I've been using a QumeTrak 242 (Ye-Data 180) exclusively for 8" recovery for > a couple of years now. Perhaps I shpuld point out the obvious and say that the TG43 signal is irrelevant when reading. If what you want to do is make images of disks, you don't need to worry wheter hthe drive generates this signal or what. But if you want to writhe imaged back to a real 8" disk, it becomes important. -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Mar 3 14:57:26 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 12:57:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Mar 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> If you look closely when 'RUNNING' the program, you will see a GPL notice .... > > So you're saying I have to download a binary-only program and run it on a > machine I don't own under an OS I don't have a license for to see this? > Yes. > In any case. I don't believe a binary-only program can be released under > the GPL, certainly not under the GPL that I am familiar with. > Did you ask for the sources, or just jump off on your high horse and take off down the road? > I have, unfortuantely, come to the conclusion that the main reason people > won't release their source code for free programs written > non-commercially is that they are ashamed of it. And that means I am > unlikely to wanty to trust the binary, even if I can run it. > Tony, you're a jackass. You know this, right? Olivier(sp?), ignore him. He's a special needs geek and doesn't know how to behave in polite company. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Mar 3 15:37:08 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2011 10:37:08 +1300 Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - Problem persists References: Message-ID: <2F5ED62091D14BC19748EA396A18B0E1@massey.ac.nz> > It is, unfortunately, very hard to diagnose faults remotely, particularly > on a device that I have never seen... No worries, it was worth a shot and I appreciate your help. I've actually learnt quite a bit so that is no bad thing. I think I'll consign this to the "might look at again some time in the future" pile. I'm sure everybody has such piles in their workshop. Mine seems to keeps growing (-: Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2011 8:05 PM Subject: Re: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - Problem persists >> >> Some more progress but not good news... >> >> Unfortunately replacing those caps and the TA7259 IC hasn't made any >> difference to the 400k drives. The symptom (motor refuses to start when >> the > > It is, unfortunately, very hard to diagnose faults remotely, particularly > on a device that I have never seen... > >> spindle is in a certain position) is still the same in both. I don't have >> a >> circuit diagram and it may be that there are some other bits and pieces >> there, compared to later Sony drives. > > I suppoe you could always reverse-engineer the drive. It can't be _that_ > complicated. > >> >> In one of the drives, if the spindle is in a position where the motor >> starts, it will read disks...but not well. It's very slow to load >> things. >> I imagine there are lots of retries, maybe because the spindle isn't >> spinning at the speed it should. In the second drive, even when the >> motor >> does rotate, it does not load programs. It could be that this second >> (rather more tattered) drive has more than one issue. >> >> Oh well... it was worth a shot. Much obliged for the help, Tony and >> others. >> I'm not sure how further I can go with it. >> >> Anyone have any other ideas as to what might cause this problem? Maybe >> the >> motor windings themselves are just shot. > > I think it's very unlikely to be the windings. Didn;t we check that there > was roughtly teh same resistance between each piar of potor output pins > onthe vtornller IC anyeay? > > My guess (and it's only a guess) is that it's one of the hall-effect > drvicces./ These are the little things with 4 connections at the edge of > the motor can its;elf. The body of the drvice is inside the motor. They > are labelled H1, H2 and H3 on the PCB I susepct > > I think you will ahve to dismantle the motor can next. There are 2 > flexible PCB tails ('flexiprints') coming out of thit. The top one -- the > one futhest from the PCB -- thet comes out of the can almost straingth > towards the left side of the drive is the FG (speed sensing) coil. It's > soldered to a pin header with is soldered to the PCB. Desoler this header > from the PCB (no not work on the flexiprint, it is too fragile). With > that free, bend up the tabs o nthe bottom and lift the housign off > complete with the FG coil. Lift out the rotor. > > You cna now see the hall effect devices. I have no idea where you'll get > replacemetns,m but those are what I would change next. > > -tony > From legalize at xmission.com Thu Mar 3 15:56:49 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2011 14:56:49 -0700 Subject: 6805 equipment pulls In-Reply-To: <4dece01a1688a435ac02afa322112d3f@cs.ubc.ca> References: <38a6c661425d97015d89cecf5ed5e293@cs.ubc.ca> <4dece01a1688a435ac02afa322112d3f@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: In article <4dece01a1688a435ac02afa322112d3f at cs.ubc.ca>, Brent Hilpert writes: > Fortune shines in a small way. > > The MC146805E2 is a CMOS 6805 with no internal ROM. 8 pins are > multiplexed data and low order-address (A0-A7), another 5 pins are > higher-order-address (A8-A12). There are an address strobe pin and data > strobe pin for demuxing. > > Other major features: > - 112 bytes internal RAM > - 16 programmable bidir IO port lines. > - internal 8-bit timer and 7-bit prescaler. > - on chip oscillator > > I see there is only one accumulator in the 6805s, so - as Eric was > hinting at - the base CPU is paired down from the 6800. Haven't checked > whether it is op-code compatible. Yay, so its not a crap chip after all and could be reused in a hobbyist project. If anyone wants one, let me know and I'll collate together requests and pass it on. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Mar 3 15:57:22 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2011 14:57:22 -0700 Subject: 6805 equipment pulls In-Reply-To: <3896032baa46ddcd6261f3fa13d44255@cs.ubc.ca> References: <38a6c661425d97015d89cecf5ed5e293@cs.ubc.ca> <3896032baa46ddcd6261f3fa13d44255@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: In article <3896032baa46ddcd6261f3fa13d44255 at cs.ubc.ca>, Brent Hilpert writes: > Do you know what they came out of and how many of them there are? No and a "bunch". Don't have an exact number. More than 5. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From spc at conman.org Thu Mar 3 16:04:53 2011 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 17:04:53 -0500 Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110303220453.GA7525@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > > > If you look closely when 'RUNNING' the program, you will see a GPL notice .... > > So you're saying I have to download a binary-only program and run it on a > machine I don't own under an OS I don't have a license for to see this? > > In any case. I don't believe a binary-only program can be released under > the GPL, certainly not under the GPL that I am familiar with. Actually, one can release a binary-only program under the GPL. The relevant portion of the GPL for this is: 3. You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it, under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following: ... b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or, c) Accompany it with the information you received as to the offer to distribute corresponding source code. (This alternative is allowed only for noncommercial distribution and only if you received the program in object code or executable form with such an offer, in accord with Subsection b above.) So, legally obtain the program, then ask for the source code. -spc (See? Easy ... ) From jws at jwsss.com Thu Mar 3 16:11:43 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2011 14:11:43 -0800 Subject: 6805 equipment pulls In-Reply-To: <4D6F9D5B.3000304@brouhaha.com> References: <4D6EE98E.1090601@brouhaha.com> <4D6F9D5B.3000304@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4D70121F.2090404@jwsss.com> I recall there were some 68xx parts offered to us in the early 80s by Motorola. They decided they didn't want to take a bloodbath on excess quantities of rom parts which did not meet specs or were refused by the original customer. They presented it to us as the rom was there, and you could add the external eprom, etc. and the rom would not affect you. I don't recall if they related how they were able to disable the rom, maybe a jumper that was bonded out to some pad with different options depending on whether they wanted the rom emabled or not. I think it was too early for the laser zapps the die method to be feasible, and certainly not in quantity. We were using 6802's and were evaluating using the 6802, 6809, or this sort of part for a higher quantity controller product we were working on. Eventually had to go with the 6809, rather than the lower power 68xx parts. Jim On 3/3/2011 5:53 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > Richard wrote: > > > > You're in luck! The MC146805E2 is not a masked-ROM part; it's one of > the few ROMless parts specifically designed to use external program > memory. > > Eric > > From les at frii.com Wed Mar 2 19:45:27 2011 From: les at frii.com (les at frii.com) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 18:45:27 -0700 Subject: Free: Stack of Victor or Sirius floppy disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1839b55321ed0304571f6c5cb198e31b@localhost> The Victor 9000 had a variable spindle speed, I cant remember if the drive spun faster on the inside or outside tracks. Also, the index hole detector was not used. Many of the drives did not have a index detector, on the drives that did have an index hole sensor, it worked just as well without it plugged in. I got in a argument about the ability to use hard sectored floppies in the Victor 9000 with a Victor sales rep once. Even after I showed him that the index detector was not connected, he still didn't believe me. Les From fjgjr1 at aol.com Thu Mar 3 20:10:22 2011 From: fjgjr1 at aol.com (fjgjr1 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 21:10:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Thanks ! Re: Possible Security risk In-Reply-To: References: , <4D6ED6B7.9020306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <8CDA82873C589C4-F84-6535A@webmail-d146.sysops.aol.com> Thanks ! I got it too and will not open it due to your alert. We all have to be so carful today ! Frank -----Original Message----- From: dwight elvey To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wed, Mar 2, 2011 7:49 pm Subject: Possible Security risk i I just opened a post from someone named TOM and the ubject was: My posts Semitec stopped it from doing some type of download. ead with caution. wight From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 3 20:11:56 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2011 21:11:56 -0500 Subject: Thanks ! Re: Possible Security risk In-Reply-To: <8CDA82873C589C4-F84-6535A@webmail-d146.sysops.aol.com> References: , <4D6ED6B7.9020306@bitsavers.org> <8CDA82873C589C4-F84-6535A@webmail-d146.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4D704A6C.6070408@neurotica.com> Well...not ALL of us.. ;) -Dave On 3/3/11 9:10 PM, fjgjr1 at aol.com wrote: > > Thanks ! > > I got it too and will not open it due to your alert. > > We all have to be so carful today ! > > Frank > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dwight elvey > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Sent: Wed, Mar 2, 2011 7:49 pm > Subject: Possible Security risk > > > > i > I just opened a post from someone named TOM and the > ubject was: My posts > Semitec stopped it from doing some type of download. > ead with caution. > wight > > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From chrise at pobox.com Thu Mar 3 20:15:46 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 20:15:46 -0600 Subject: TG43 signal and 8" drives on commodity hardware (was Re: WTD: 8-inch floppy drive) In-Reply-To: <4D6F5DC8.11155.38CBFA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D6ED6B7.9020306@bitsavers.org> <4D6E6DCD.3415.14CC99A@cclist.sydex.com> <20110303165858.GA12900@n0jcf.net> <4D6F5DC8.11155.38CBFA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20110304021546.GG14789@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (03/03/2011 at 09:22AM -0800), Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 3 Mar 2011 at 10:58, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > > What is the theory of operation behind a hard-sector filter? I > > believe I have seen this done with just a one-shot but I'm not sure I > > understand how that eliminates only the sector marks, leaving just > > index? It seems like with just a one-shot, it would sync to any hole > > and call that index. > > One of the things that makes this easy for 8" drives is that, but for > a few very early types, all 8" HS floppies are 33-hole (32 sectors + > index). > > The index on an 8" HS floppy is located midway between two sector > holes. So, for example, if you use a one-shot whose output width is > set to, say, 2/3rds of the time between index holes, any hole > occurring under that "umbrella" must be an index--so you generate an > "index" pulse. Very simple, actually. Ah... I see now. The one-shot is used as a gate and if another index pulse comes in while the gate is "open", then you let that pulse pass. Thanks. Makes sense. This should apply to 5.25" hard-sector too. Same concept. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Mar 3 20:21:45 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 18:21:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - Problem persists In-Reply-To: <2F5ED62091D14BC19748EA396A18B0E1@massey.ac.nz> References: <2F5ED62091D14BC19748EA396A18B0E1@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2011, Terry Stewart wrote: >> It is, unfortunately, very hard to diagnose faults remotely, particularly >> on a device that I have never seen... > > No worries, it was worth a shot and I appreciate your help. I've actually > learnt quite a bit so that is no bad thing. > > I think I'll consign this to the "might look at again some time in the > future" pile. I'm sure everybody has such piles in their workshop. Mine > seems to keeps growing (-: I have several such piles which I'm selling off as fast as I reasonably can. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Mar 3 20:35:45 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2011 18:35:45 -0800 Subject: 6805 equipment pulls In-Reply-To: <4D70121F.2090404@jwsss.com> References: <4D6EE98E.1090601@brouhaha.com> <4D6F9D5B.3000304@brouhaha.com> <4D70121F.2090404@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4D705001.1030708@brouhaha.com> jim s wrote: > I recall there were some 68xx parts offered to us in the early 80s by > Motorola. They decided they didn't want to take a bloodbath on excess > quantities of rom parts which did not meet specs or were refused by the > original customer. They presented it to us as the rom was there, and you > could add the external eprom, etc. and the rom would not affect you. That would most likely have been the MC6801 family, or the MC68HC11 family. Many of those parts had the ability to use external memory, and optionally to disable the internal ROM. Aside from the ROMless MC146805E2, there were few 6805-family parts that could use external memory. Even for the parts with an undocumented way of doing it, by applying a supervoltage to a pin, this was only intended for engineering test and not for production, as it stressed the I/O pad. Keeping the supervoltage applied for an arbitrarily long time could damage the part. At one time I wanted to develop some code for the MC68HC05F5, a variant with a built-in DTMF decoder. There was no EPROM or OTP version of this part. Motorola gave me documentation on the test modes of that part. IIRC, some people also worked out how test modes worked on a few other MC68HC05 family parts based on study of the schematics of EVB boards. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 3 20:35:49 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2011 18:35:49 -0800 Subject: TG43 signal and 8" drives on commodity hardware (was Re: WTD: 8-inch floppy drive) In-Reply-To: <20110304021546.GG14789@n0jcf.net> References: <4D6ED6B7.9020306@bitsavers.org>, <4D6F5DC8.11155.38CBFA@cclist.sydex.com>, <20110304021546.GG14789@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4D6FDF85.27604.23396DE@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Mar 2011 at 20:15, Chris Elmquist wrote: > This should apply to 5.25" hard-sector too. Same concept. Yes, but a little trickier--5.25" disks come in more than one sector hole pattern. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 3 20:38:01 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2011 18:38:01 -0800 Subject: Free: Stack of Victor or Sirius floppy disks In-Reply-To: <1839b55321ed0304571f6c5cb198e31b@localhost> References: , <1839b55321ed0304571f6c5cb198e31b@localhost> Message-ID: <4D6FE009.23939.23599D2@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Mar 2011 at 18:45, les at frii.com wrote: > The Victor 9000 had a variable spindle speed, I cant remember if the > drive spun faster on the inside or outside tracks. Also, the index > hole detector was not used. Many of the drives did not have a index > detector, on the drives that did have an index hole sensor, it worked > just as well without it plugged in. I got in a argument about the > ability to use hard sectored floppies in the Victor 9000 with a Victor > sales rep once. Even after I showed him that the index detector was > not connected, he still didn't believe me. One of the PC mags covered the disk operation back when. The drive spins more slowly when the head is on the outside tracks (i.e. CLV, but ISTR that it isn't "constant", but rather zoned). --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 21:19:02 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 22:19:02 -0500 Subject: Free: Stack of Victor or Sirius floppy disks In-Reply-To: <4D6FE009.23939.23599D2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1839b55321ed0304571f6c5cb198e31b@localhost> <4D6FE009.23939.23599D2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 9:38 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2 Mar 2011 at 18:45, les at frii.com wrote: > >> The Victor 9000 had a variable spindle speed... > > One of the PC mags covered the disk operation back when. ?The drive > spins more slowly when the head is on the outside tracks (i.e. CLV, > but ISTR that it isn't "constant", but rather zoned). CBM disks did that (one of the 65xx processors could affect the low-order two bits of a divide-by-N chip), and so did 400K Mac floppy drives (you could hear the motor speed changing). Given Tony's comment about the drive portion of the Victor 9000 resembling a CBM 8050 drive, I'm not surprised to hear about the "zoning". The issue for imaging becomes where are the zones and what are the bitrates for each zone, etc. -ethan From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Mar 3 21:21:41 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2011 19:21:41 -0800 Subject: Reading Microcontrollers. In-Reply-To: <20110304021546.GG14789@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: I need to pull the rom image off of a MC705C8acpe, anyone know how? Or if it is possible? From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Mar 3 21:55:26 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2011 22:55:26 -0500 Subject: Reading Microcontrollers. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D7062AE.4070308@atarimuseum.com> It has an SPI (Serial Program Interface) so it should conform to a standard MOSI/MISO/RESET/SCK interface.... so I you can tap the pinouts of it, apply gnd and power to it and hook it up to an ISP programmer, you should be able to read in the code from it and save it as a bin or hex file. Here's the datasheet: http://www.ic-on-line.cn/IOL/viewpdf/MC705C8ACFNR2_393498.htm I work with Atmel and Microchip MCU's a lot so its fairly similar, never worked with Motorola MCU's before though.... Geoffrey Reed wrote: > I need to pull the rom image off of a MC705C8acpe, anyone know how? Or if it > is possible? > > > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Mar 4 07:59:25 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2011 05:59:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thanks ! Re: Possible Security risk In-Reply-To: <4D704A6C.6070408@neurotica.com> References: , <4D6ED6B7.9020306@bitsavers.org> <8CDA82873C589C4-F84-6535A@webmail-d146.sysops.aol.com> <4D704A6C.6070408@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Mar 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Well...not ALL of us.. ;) > > -Dave > > On 3/3/11 9:10 PM, fjgjr1 at aol.com wrote: >> >> Thanks ! >> >> I got it too and will not open it due to your alert. >> >> We all have to be so carful today ! >> >> Frank >> Just think, there is some poor dork out there madly trying to figure out how to make Alpine execute attachments... *snickers* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 4 09:34:26 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2011 10:34:26 -0500 Subject: Thanks ! Re: Possible Security risk In-Reply-To: References: , <4D6ED6B7.9020306@bitsavers.org> <8CDA82873C589C4-F84-6535A@webmail-d146.sysops.aol.com> <4D704A6C.6070408@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D710682.2020500@neurotica.com> On 3/4/11 8:59 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> >> Well...not ALL of us.. ;) >> >> -Dave >> >> On 3/3/11 9:10 PM, fjgjr1 at aol.com wrote: >>> >>> Thanks ! >>> >>> I got it too and will not open it due to your alert. >>> >>> We all have to be so carful today ! > > Just think, there is some poor dork out there madly trying to figure out > how to make Alpine execute attachments... > > *snickers* ROFL!! -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From chrise at pobox.com Fri Mar 4 12:12:24 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2011 12:12:24 -0600 Subject: TG43 signal and 8" drives on commodity hardware (was Re: WTD: 8-inch floppy drive) In-Reply-To: <4D6FDF85.27604.23396DE@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20110304021546.GG14789@n0jcf.net> <4D6FDF85.27604.23396DE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20110304181224.GE21193@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (03/03/2011 at 06:35PM -0800), Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 3 Mar 2011 at 20:15, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > > > This should apply to 5.25" hard-sector too. Same concept. > > Yes, but a little trickier--5.25" disks come in more than one sector > hole pattern. oh sure... you just have to choose the one-shot timing appropriately. But then I am not sure why I want to do this on 5.25" media :-) -- Chris Elmquist From chrise at pobox.com Fri Mar 4 12:37:38 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2011 12:37:38 -0600 Subject: Reading Microcontrollers. In-Reply-To: <4D7062AE.4070308@atarimuseum.com> References: <4D7062AE.4070308@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20110304183738.GF21193@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (03/03/2011 at 10:55PM -0500), Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > It has an SPI (Serial Program Interface) so it should conform to a > standard MOSI/MISO/RESET/SCK interface.... so I you can tap the pinouts > of it, apply gnd and power to it and hook it up to an ISP programmer, > you should be able to read in the code from it and save it as a bin or > hex file. well, no. Not exactly. The SPI on these devices is not used to program or in any way access the EPROM on the devices without the 6805 participating in such transfers. They do have a ROM that facilitates programming and dumping of the EPROM and it does this through the serial (SCI) port. However they also have a security bit which if set, prevents verifying and dumping the EPROM. So, you _could_ dump the EPROM, via the serial port, using the on-chip ROM code but only if that security bit has not been programmed. > Here's the datasheet: > > http://www.ic-on-line.cn/IOL/viewpdf/MC705C8ACFNR2_393498.htm section 9.4.8 on page 115 discusses dumping the EPROM... > Geoffrey Reed wrote: >> I need to pull the rom image off of a MC705C8acpe, anyone know how? Or if it >> is possible? -- Chris Elmquist From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 4 12:50:04 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2011 18:50:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Mar 3, 11 12:57:26 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, 3 Mar 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > > >> > >> If you look closely when 'RUNNING' the program, you will see a GPL notice .... > > > > So you're saying I have to download a binary-only program and run it on a > > machine I don't own under an OS I don't have a license for to see this? > > > Yes. And just how am I supposed to do that? I have had another look at the web page for this emulator this morning. At that time there was no mention on it (that I could see) of the GPL, or any mention of the availability of the source code at any point in the future. So why on earthshould I assume this (fairly large) binary distibution, of a machine and OS that I don't own, is ever goign to be of any use to me? > > > In any case. I don't believe a binary-only program can be released under > > the GPL, certainly not under the GPL that I am familiar with. > > > Did you ask for the sources, or just jump off on your high horse and take > off down the road? If you're going to flame, would you please flame the right person. The first person to moan about the lack of sourves was, IIRC, Al Kossow. > > > I have, unfortuantely, come to the conclusion that the main reason people > > won't release their source code for free programs written > > non-commercially is that they are ashamed of it. And that means I am > > unlikely to wanty to trust the binary, even if I can run it. > > > Tony, you're a jackass. You know this, right? Yes. Andthis particular jackass has realised what he's beeing doing wrong for the last 15 or so years. And that is going to change right now. > > Olivier(sp?), ignore him. He's a special needs geek and doesn't know how > to behave in polite company. Yes, that;'s right, ignore me. Until you need a pinout, or a schemaitc, or a toubleshooting tip, or a ROM dump, or... And then demand them from me. And I am still trying to work out why Olivier sent me an e-mail message with a jpeg file attached that he claimed was a pascal program to dump a ROM from a machine I don't own and have never claimed to own. I never received a reply when I asked what was (and having a text-only display makes it rather difficult to display images). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 4 13:01:00 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2011 19:01:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - Problem persists In-Reply-To: <2F5ED62091D14BC19748EA396A18B0E1@massey.ac.nz> from "Terry Stewart" at Mar 4, 11 10:37:08 am Message-ID: > > > It is, unfortunately, very hard to diagnose faults remotely, particularly > > on a device that I have never seen... > > No worries, it was worth a shot and I appreciate your help. I've actually > learnt quite a bit so that is no bad thing. Yes. One advantage of what I call 'real' troubleshooting is that you tend to pick up quite a bit of electronics knowledge along the way :-) It's a pity that we live on opposite sides of the globe. If we were nest doro to each other, I'd suggest letting me have a look at it. Needless to say it's a lot easier to do this sort of diagnosis with the device in front of you. > > I think I'll consign this to the "might look at again some time in the > future" pile. I'm sure everybody has such piles in their workshop. Mine > seems to keeps growing (-: Well, I certainly do, and it does, indeed, keep growing. There's a lot of intereting stuff I must get round to working on one day. I tend to only put stuff there if I know it's going to takr a _lot_ of time to sort out (months/years) or if I know I need parts/manuals/knowledge that I can't get at the moment but might get later. I think in my case if I had a drive with a spindle motor problem I would see it through. YMMV -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 4 13:08:12 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2011 19:08:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: <20110303220453.GA7525@brevard.conman.org> from "Sean Conner" at Mar 3, 11 05:04:53 pm Message-ID: > > It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > > > > > If you look closely when 'RUNNING' the program, you will see a GPL notice .... > > > > So you're saying I have to download a binary-only program and run it on a > > machine I don't own under an OS I don't have a license for to see this? > > > > In any case. I don't believe a binary-only program can be released under > > the GPL, certainly not under the GPL that I am familiar with. > > Actually, one can release a binary-only program under the GPL. The > relevant portion of the GPL for this is: > > 3. You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it, > under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of > Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following: > > ... > > b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three > years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your > cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete > machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be > distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium > customarily used for software interchange; or, > > c) Accompany it with the information you received as to the offer > to distribute corresponding source code. (This alternative is > allowed only for noncommercial distribution and only if you > received the program in object code or executable form with such > an offer, in accord with Subsection b above.) > > So, legally obtain the program, then ask for the source code. Yes, agreed. But I think there;s a big difference between a binary-only distribution of a program and a program which is only distributed as a bianry. Now, IANAL, but I take that to mean that it's quite legal for me to (say) give you a disk with a GCC binary on it for a particular system (GCC being a GPL'ed program, of coruse) provided I either offer you the source for trh ecost of copying it, or tell you where to get it from This is met in spirit, and I suspect in letter, by web siters that have one link to download a pre-configured program to run on Windows, say, and a separate link to donwload the source code for it. However, in the case of this HP9000/200 emualtor, the soruce code is not yet available to download. I happen to believe the author is honest, and that he will release the source code when he's tidied it up, but right now I can get the binary but not the soruce. Of course I sincerely hope nothing like this happens, but I can think of many reasons why the author would be unable to relase the souce code. So at this point, I do fail to see how the program, binary only, no source avaialble, can be released under the GPL. Once the source is available, of course it can be/ -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 4 13:17:14 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2011 19:17:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TG43 signal and 8" drives on commodity hardware (was Re: WTD: In-Reply-To: <20110304021546.GG14789@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Mar 3, 11 08:15:46 pm Message-ID: > > The index on an 8" HS floppy is located midway between two sector > > holes. So, for example, if you use a one-shot whose output width is > > set to, say, 2/3rds of the time between index holes, any hole > > occurring under that "umbrella" must be an index--so you generate an > > "index" pulse. Very simple, actually. > > Ah... I see now. The one-shot is used as a gate and if another index > pulse comes in while the gate is "open", then you let that pulse pass. > > Thanks. Makes sense. > > This should apply to 5.25" hard-sector too. Same concept. It does. It also workes for the RK05-type packs (not jsut DEC) which have sector notches and an index notch midway between 2 of them. Much the same circuit in all cases. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 4 13:22:12 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2011 19:22:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Free: Stack of Victor or Sirius floppy disks In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Mar 3, 11 10:19:02 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 9:38 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 2 Mar 2011 at 18:45, les at frii.com wrote: > > > >> The Victor 9000 had a variable spindle speed... > > > > One of the PC mags covered the disk operation back when. =A0The drive > > spins more slowly when the head is on the outside tracks (i.e. CLV, > > but ISTR that it isn't "constant", but rather zoned). > > CBM disks did that (one of the 65xx processors could affect the > low-order two bits of a divide-by-N chip), and so did 400K Mac floppy Actually, Commodore drives (at least the 8050 and 1541) kept the spidnle speed constant and speeded up the data clock on the outside tracks. Same idea, as I said in another message the are pros and cons to both methods. > drives (you could hear the motor speed changing). Yes. The 400K drive (which I believe is much the same as the drive Terry was trying to fix) has an input for a PWM motor speec control signal. On the mac, a counter is loaded from 8 bits of an unused video RAM location at the end of each scan line (the other 8 bits go to a similar PWM cirucit for the sound IIRC). The Apple 800K drive is alos variable-speed, but IIRC the speed control is handled entirely with the drive. The speed is set depending on what cylinder the heads are on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 4 12:43:23 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2011 18:43:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Free: Stack of Victor or Sirius floppy disks In-Reply-To: <1839b55321ed0304571f6c5cb198e31b@localhost> from "les@frii.com" at Mar 2, 11 06:45:27 pm Message-ID: > > The Victor 9000 had a variable spindle speed, I cant remember if the Yes, The idea was to keep an appoximately constant-size bit cell on the disk. On 'normal' drives, there are a constatn number of bit cells per track, so they are larger on the outside tracks (which are, of ocurse, longer). The Sirius/Victor 9000 spun the disk more slowly on the outer tracks so as to keep the cells about the same size (and thus fitted more bit cells on theouter tracks). The Commodor 8050,. etc, kept the spidnel speed constant but changed the data rate clock to the encode. There are advntages and disadvantages to both methods. Keeping the data rate consstate simplifies the data recovery circuitry (and either allows for a simpler filter in the read amplifier or doesn't try to use said filter over too widr a range of fata rates). On the otehr hand, changing the spindle speed, and making sure it's got to the right speed, slows down track-to-track seeks. IIRC, the motors are controlled by an 8048 microcontroller on the disk conteroller board. I think it takes a pair of 4-bit inputs from one of the VIAs to set the speeds. -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Mar 4 14:33:04 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2011 12:33:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > > Yes. > > Andthis particular jackass has realised what he's beeing doing wrong for > the last 15 or so years. And that is going to change right now. > *crosses fingers* >> >> Olivier(sp?), ignore him. He's a special needs geek and doesn't know how >> to behave in polite company. > > Yes, that;'s right, ignore me. Until you need a pinout, or a schemaitc, > or a toubleshooting tip, or a ROM dump, or... And then demand them from me. > At this point, if I owned a device that required your help to make it work, it would go right in the bin as being not worth the effort. However, know that I've _NEVER_ asked (or demanded!) help from you. I have watched you crap all over people for the dumbest things though. I don't care what level of computer godhood you've reached, if you denigrate someone that's tried hard to create something useful, I'm going to get in your face about it. If you don't like it, too bad. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Mar 4 15:09:14 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2011 16:09:14 -0500 Subject: Reading Microcontrollers. In-Reply-To: <20110304183738.GF21193@n0jcf.net> References: <4D7062AE.4070308@atarimuseum.com> <20110304183738.GF21193@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4D7154FA.20107@atarimuseum.com> Thanks for the clarification Chris, as I mentioned I work with Atmel and Microchip MCU's, so I wasn't 100% sure on the Motorola unit. Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Thursday (03/03/2011 at 10:55PM -0500), Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > >> It has an SPI (Serial Program Interface) so it should conform to a >> standard MOSI/MISO/RESET/SCK interface.... so I you can tap the pinouts >> of it, apply gnd and power to it and hook it up to an ISP programmer, >> you should be able to read in the code from it and save it as a bin or >> hex file. >> > > well, no. Not exactly. The SPI on these devices is not used to program or > in any way access the EPROM on the devices without the 6805 participating > in such transfers. > > They do have a ROM that facilitates programming and dumping of the EPROM > and it does this through the serial (SCI) port. However they also have > a security bit which if set, prevents verifying and dumping the EPROM. > > So, you _could_ dump the EPROM, via the serial port, using the on-chip > ROM code but only if that security bit has not been programmed. > > >> Here's the datasheet: >> >> http://www.ic-on-line.cn/IOL/viewpdf/MC705C8ACFNR2_393498.htm >> > > section 9.4.8 on page 115 discusses dumping the EPROM... > > >> Geoffrey Reed wrote: >> >>> I need to pull the rom image off of a MC705C8acpe, anyone know how? Or if it >>> is possible? >>> > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 4 15:34:48 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2011 16:34:48 -0500 Subject: Free: Stack of Victor or Sirius floppy disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 2:22 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> CBM disks did that (one of the 65xx processors could affect the >> low-order two bits of a divide-by-N chip), and so did 400K Mac floppy > > Actually, Commodore drives (at least the 8050 and 1541) kept the spidnle > speed constant and speeded up the data clock on the outside tracks. I did not intend to imply that CBM drives changed the spindle speed. Unfortunately, I failed to explicitly state the beneficiary of the divide-by-N chip as being the data clock, so I can see how it can look that I suggested that it was the motor speed that was variable. > Yes. The 400K drive (which I believe is much the same as the drive Terry > was trying to fix) has an input for a PWM motor speec control signal. On > the mac, a counter is loaded from 8 bits of an unused video RAM location > at the end of each scan line (the other 8 bits go to a similar PWM > cirucit for the sound IIRC). Interesting. I did know the mechanism to that level of detail - I just knew the speed varied enough to be audibly detected. > The Apple 800K drive is alos variable-speed, but IIRC the speed control > is handled entirely with the drive. The speed is set depending on what > cylinder the heads are on. I wasn't sure what was up with the 800K drives, so I didn't say anything. I did recall that there was some difference from how the 400K drives were designed, but I didn't know what. Thanks for clearing up any confusion I may have caused. -ethan From lynchaj at yahoo.com Fri Mar 4 18:29:47 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2011 19:29:47 -0500 Subject: Reordering S-100 PCBs Message-ID: <30DAA7342D1849669311113EF3D5C686@andrewdesktop> Hi! I am putting together the next set of S-100 PCB reorders for the S-100 hobbyist group. The two boards I would like to order next are the S-100 EPROM and S-100 IO boards. So far, I have eight builders on the waiting list for the S-100 Flash/EEPROM/EPROM/SRAM board http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/PROM%20Board/PROM%20Board.htm I have eleven builders on the waiting list for the S-100 Serial IO (with USB and Speech Synthesis) http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/Serial%20IO%20Board/Serial%20IO %20Board.htm I need about reasonably firm 20 builders on the waiting list to warrant a PCB reorder. Both of these boards are going to be respins to correct any issues from the original boards. They are useful in any S-100 system and offer full IEEE-696 compatibility. Please contact me by email LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM if interested in either or both boards. They will be $20 each plus $3 shipping in the US and $6 elsewhere as per usual arrangement. I will combine shipping on multiple boards to reduce shipping depending on weight. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Mar 4 18:50:35 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2011 19:50:35 -0500 Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > At this point, if I owned a device that required your help to make it work, > it would go right in the bin as being not worth the effort. The nice thing about this list is that there is plenty of knowledge to go around. For almost any topic that matters, there are at least a few listmember experts on the topic that can help. We have several analog video/CRT experts, several (lots!) floppy experts, several power supply experts, and so on. -- Will From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Mar 5 04:01:07 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 23:01:07 +1300 Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - Problem persists References: Message-ID: <9EEE474D69E849A6924973F8B9E40326@massey.ac.nz> >I think in my case if I had a drive with a spindle motor problem I > would see it through. YMMV Well, on thinking further I might just do that. I'm a little worried about the micro-surgery but what have I got to lose? I do have two drives and if a hall-effect device has gone in both there still should be enough good ones to go around for just one drive, right? I'm guessing they can be removed. Is there any obvious way to tell wether an individual one is faulty once they are exposed? Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 8:01 AM Subject: Re: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - Problem persists >> >> > It is, unfortunately, very hard to diagnose faults remotely, >> > particularly >> > on a device that I have never seen... >> >> No worries, it was worth a shot and I appreciate your help. I've >> actually >> learnt quite a bit so that is no bad thing. > > Yes. One advantage of what I call 'real' troubleshooting is that you tend > to pick up quite a bit of electronics knowledge along the way :-) > > > It's a pity that we live on opposite sides of the globe. If we were > nest doro to each other, I'd suggest letting me have a look at it. > Needless to say it's a lot easier to do this sort of diagnosis with the > device in front of you. > >> >> I think I'll consign this to the "might look at again some time in the >> future" pile. I'm sure everybody has such piles in their workshop. >> Mine >> seems to keeps growing (-: > > Well, I certainly do, and it does, indeed, keep growing. There's a lot of > intereting stuff I must get round to working on one day. > > I tend to only put stuff there if I know it's going to takr a _lot_ of > time to sort out (months/years) or if I know I need > parts/manuals/knowledge that I can't get at the moment but might get > later. I think in my case if I had a drive with a spindle motor problem I > would see it through. YMMV > > -tony > From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Mar 5 04:03:22 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 23:03:22 +1300 Subject: Apple Lisa 2/10 restoration write up References: Message-ID: Given that my Apple Lisa 2/10 now works (as I stole a drive from the other Lisa), I've written the project up. For those interested it is here. http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-03-05-rejuvenating-a-lisa2-10.htm Cheers Terry From olivier.2.smet at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 09:52:58 2011 From: olivier.2.smet at gmail.com (Olivier De Smet) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 16:52:58 +0100 Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For your pleasure (I hope) you can now get the source code (sorry it's a zip file) at : http://sites.google.com/site/olivier2smet2/hp_projects/hp98x6 near the end Olivier. P.S. I'm sorry this web site is not text only ;) From spedraja at ono.com Sat Mar 5 10:48:15 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 17:48:15 +0100 Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you, Olivier. Sergio 2011/3/5 Olivier De Smet > For your pleasure (I hope) you can now get the source code (sorry it's > a zip file) > at : http://sites.google.com/site/olivier2smet2/hp_projects/hp98x6 near > the end > > Olivier. > > P.S. I'm sorry this web site is not text only ;) > From spedraja at ono.com Sat Mar 5 10:50:28 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 17:50:28 +0100 Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: By the way... What's your idea about this development for the future ? Do you need or accept some kind of help about some matter related with it ? Sergio 2011/3/5 Olivier De Smet > For your pleasure (I hope) you can now get the source code (sorry it's > a zip file) > at : http://sites.google.com/site/olivier2smet2/hp_projects/hp98x6 near > the end > > Olivier. > > P.S. I'm sorry this web site is not text only ;) > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 5 09:43:33 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 15:43:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Mar 4, 11 12:33:04 pm Message-ID: > > Andthis particular jackass has realised what he's beeing doing wrong for > > the last 15 or so years. And that is going to change right now. > > > *crosses fingers* Yes, but be caeful what you wish for. It may not be what you expect... Could you please answer me one quesiton though. Why are you not also flaming Al Kossow since he was the first person to moan that this emualtor was binary only. And used words like 'Yawn'. And said he was holding back various donated items of software until sombody releases an open CS/80 implementation. That was _NOT_ me, OK... > > >> > >> Olivier(sp?), ignore him. He's a special needs geek and doesn't know how > >> to behave in polite company. > > > > Yes, that;'s right, ignore me. Until you need a pinout, or a schemaitc, > > or a toubleshooting tip, or a ROM dump, or... And then demand them from me. > > > At this point, if I owned a device that required your help to make it > work, it would go right in the bin as being not worth the effort. Your loss, not mine, I can assure you. > > However, know that I've _NEVER_ asked (or demanded!) help from you. I I never said you had. Plenty of people do though, without bothering to check what facilities I have, what OSes I am running, that sort of thing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 5 09:54:43 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 15:54:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Free: Stack of Victor or Sirius floppy disks In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Mar 4, 11 04:34:48 pm Message-ID: > > Yes. The 400K drive (which I believe is much the same as the drive Terry > > was trying to fix) has an input for a PWM motor speec control signal. On > > the mac, a counter is loaded from 8 bits of an unused video RAM location > > at the end of each scan line (the other 8 bits go to a similar PWM > > cirucit for the sound IIRC). > > Interesting. I did know the mechanism to that level of detail - I just knew the > speed varied enough to be audibly detected. Actually, I don't _know_ that's all the case but I am prepared to state it. The Mac+ liogic board certainly outputs a PWM signal and from what I can remember of 'Inside Macintosh' the area of memory it is laoded from is descrivd as being for disk motor control. The 400K drive that Terry is working on, which must be clearly similar to the Mac 400K drive, if not identical, and that one certainly takes in a PWM motor control signal (the adapter board, I forget the name, that's used in the Lisa with this drive is essentailly a PWM generator). The 800K drive most certainly does not make use of this PWM signal, but it is variable speed, so I guess it must be settign the speed form the cylinder number. > > > The Apple 800K drive is alos variable-speed, but IIRC the speed control > > is handled entirely with the drive. The speed is set depending on what > > cylinder the heads are on. > > I wasn't sure what was up with the 800K drives, so I didn't say anything. I > did recall that there was some difference from how the 400K drives were > designed, but I didn't know what. One thing to watch for when working on older Max is that the floppy drive ribbon cables are not necessarily what they seem. It make look like a 20 pin ribbon cable, but if you examing it you will find that a couple of 'wires' are jsut plastic, no conductor. Thos pins are not connected (they have signals on both the drive and logic board headers, but not the same signal, they muc not be joined). This led me a merry dance.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 5 09:58:38 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 15:58:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Mar 4, 11 07:50:35 pm Message-ID: > > The nice thing about this list is that there is plenty of knowledge to I have coem across an awful lot of self-styled experts -- not on this list I hasten to add -- who are anything but. I treat all information with a pinch on NaCl.... > go around. For almost any topic that matters, there are at least a few > listmember experts on the topic that can help. We have several analog > video/CRT experts, several (lots!) floppy experts, several power > supply experts, and so on. However, some of the information about CRTs has been IMHO somwhat irresponsible if not downright dangerous. I don;t doubt there are people, quite possibly on this list, who know more aobut CRTs than the information given in the data books. And I will accept that hte manufactueres have an interest in selling replacement CRTs. Haowever, if you are going to contradict statements in the data books you had better know what you are doing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 5 10:16:37 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 16:16:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - Problem persists In-Reply-To: <9EEE474D69E849A6924973F8B9E40326@massey.ac.nz> from "terry stewart" at Mar 5, 11 11:01:07 pm Message-ID: > > >I think in my case if I had a drive with a spindle motor problem I > > would see it through. YMMV > > Well, on thinking further I might just do that. I'm a little worried about > the micro-surgery but what have I got to lose? Well, you don;'t want to make thigns worse if there's a chance you'll get more skills later, on the other hand, I would certainly agree that 'having a go' is rarely a bad idea. > > I do have two drives and if a hall-effect device has gone in both there > still should be enough good ones to go around for just one drive, right? > I'm guessing they can be removed. Yes, you can remove them non-destructively. They have 4 pins soldered to the PCB.. There are 3 in each motor, so if you only have one bad one pwere drive,you have 4 good ones which is enough to get one motor going. > > Is there any obvious way to tell wether an individual one is faulty once > they are exposed? Is there any way you could borrow an oscilloscope? It doesn;'t need ot be anyting fancy. What I would suggest doing is looking at the signals from the hall effect devices at the pins o the TA7259 (IIRC) chip, I think it's pins 1,2,3,4,13,14. If oyu have a ;scope with differential inputs, you could look at the difference betwene 1 and 2, 3 and 4, 13 and 14. If not, or if you're not sure about it, just look at each signal in turn using AC coupling. My guess is that as this motor is going to rotatge around 600rpm (the speed of the normal fixed-speed ones), the pulses will be a fre ms apart. This will give yoy an idea of what timebase setting to use. Anyway, what you are looking for is a signal or pair of signals that looks different to all the others. When you ahve foudn that, trace it back to a hall device and change that one. Obviously you do this before dismantling the motor. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 5 10:53:47 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 16:53:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: from "Olivier De Smet" at Mar 5, 11 04:52:58 pm Message-ID: > > For your pleasure (I hope) you can now get the source code (sorry it's > a zip file) > at : http://sites.google.com/site/olivier2smet2/hp_projects/hp98x6 near the end Thank you. I will certainly take a look at that. Am I correct that it is released under te GPL? As you may know, one of the things that many owneres for real HP machines would like ot see is disk unit emulator. That is a device that plugs into the HPIB connector and pretends to be an Amigo, SS/80 or CS/80 disk, but which stores the data on, say, an SD card. I am hoping that your implementation of SS/80 in this emulator will be useful for this. -tony From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 11:04:00 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 09:04:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Free: Stack of Victor or Sirius floppy disks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <544806.10066.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 3/5/11, Tony Duell wrote: > One thing to watch for when working on older Max is that > the floppy drive > ribbon cables are not necessarily what they seem. It make > look like a 20 > pin ribbon cable, but if you examing it you will find that > a couple of > 'wires' are jsut plastic, no conductor. Thos pins are not > connected (they > have signals on both the drive and logic board headers, but > not the same > signal, they muc not be joined). This led me a merry > dance.... It depends on the machine and the configuration. IIRC, the earlier machines had regular 20 pin cables, but then certain combinations of disk drive and computer needed the "yellow stripe" cable, as opposed to the "red stripe" one. You can use the 800k drive on a machine that needs a 400k drive by clipping pin 20 on the cable, if I'm remembering that right. That is the PWM line. If you leave it connected, you get constant ejecting. I also seem to remember something about pin 9 needing to be disconnected as well, but I can't for the life of me remember what that was. A similar trick was needed to use an 800k drive on a machine with a SuperDrive controller (MacII, etc) -Ian From olivier.2.smet at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 11:20:26 2011 From: olivier.2.smet at gmail.com (Olivier De Smet) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 18:20:26 +0100 Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The GPL V3.0 licence is included in the source archive of course. For the other project, someone already get the verilog HP86 in FPGA I have on my site to try to make this kind of stuff for amigo protocol. For fpga, I use a digilent evaluation board and the free tools from xillinx (they exists for windows and linux) The source for the whole HP86+HP9121/HP9895+serial line in verilog is gpl too .... It not very complicated, just some componentt to adjust levels, some buffers to map the inout nature of HPIB lines into IN part and OUT part for the fpga (it better this way), and thats all, because I make a real 'hpib like' bus inside the system, but with the assumption that the hp86 is ALWAYS the system controller (it simplified some stuff), after that it use a free sd driver from opencores.org to read and write onto the sd card. For SS80 and CS80 protocol, I think the verilog part will be easier to do, SS80 is more regular than amigo protocol at command level But I don't have any news since last september I think, so one day, perhaps I will try myself. Btw as you 'distmantle' regularly your series 200 machines, do you think if it is possible to dump the rom of the character generators in the alpha part of the display board ? It could be nice to have 'real' font in emulation for 9816 and 9836 as it actually for 9837 emulation. Olivier 2011/3/5 Tony Duell : >> >> For your pleasure (I hope) you can now get the source code (sorry it's >> a zip file) >> at : http://sites.google.com/site/olivier2smet2/hp_projects/hp98x6 near the end > > Thank you. I will certainly take a look at that. Am I correct that it is > released under te GPL? > > As you may know, one of the things that many owneres for real HP machines > would like ot see is ?disk unit emulator. That is a device that plugs > into the HPIB connector and pretends to be an Amigo, SS/80 or CS/80 disk, > but which stores the data on, say, an SD card. I am hoping that your > implementation of SS/80 in this emulator will be useful for this. > > -tony > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 5 12:55:36 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 18:55:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Free: Stack of Victor or Sirius floppy disks In-Reply-To: <544806.10066.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Mr Ian Primus" at Mar 5, 11 09:04:00 am Message-ID: > It depends on the machine and the configuration. IIRC, the earlier Yes, you're right. The only Mac I have any real hardware experience of is the Mac+. IIRC, you can use a 400K drive with that using a all-pins-wired ribbon cable, but if you use the standard 800K drive, you need a cable with 1 or 2 pins open. > machines had regular 20 pin cables, but then certain combinations of > disk drive and computer needed the "yellow stripe" cable, as opposed to > the "red stripe" one. > > I also seem to remember something about pin 9 needing to be > disconnected as well, but I can't for the life of me remember what that > was. I think one of the pins was a -ve power supply rail (-5V? -12V?) > A similar trick was needed to use an 800k drive on a machine with a > SuperDrive controller (MacII, etc) Right... this is something to be aware if you're working on such machines. I am so used to seening IDC ribbon cabels where all pins are wired and where there are no 'dummies' in calbe that I was very suppised when I figured out what the Apple drvie cables were doing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 5 12:50:10 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 18:50:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: from "Olivier De Smet" at Mar 5, 11 06:20:26 pm Message-ID: > > The GPL V3.0 licence is included in the source archive of course. > > For the other project, someone already get the verilog HP86 in FPGA I > have on my site > to try to make this kind of stuff for amigo protocol. > > For fpga, I use a digilent evaluation board and the free tools from > xillinx (they exists for windows and linux) > The source for the whole HP86+HP9121/HP9895+serial line in verilog is > gpl too .... > > It not very complicated, just some componentt to adjust levels, some > buffers to map > the inout nature of HPIB lines into IN part and OUT part for the fpga > (it better this way), I was thinking that it should be fairly straightforward to bit-bang HPIB through the port pins of a microcontorller (HP did this in some of their machines, the 98034 uses an HP custom Nanocontroller chip, and IIRC the 82169 uses an 8049with an HP buffer chip). That microcontroller could also handle the SS/80 protocol and SD card interfce. Of course an FGPA could do those things too, so if somebody wants to make a version fo this in an FPGA that would be great. > Btw as you 'distmantle' regularly your series 200 machines, do you > think if it is possible to dump the > rom of the character generators in the alpha part of the display board ? Sure. The ones that would be easiest for me to get to are the 9836C (colour) and HP98204B (video card in the HP9817). I think I couldget to an HP898204A card too. Do you want more than one character generator dump, or is any one OK. Given the choice I'd rather do one of the 98204 ones, simply becasue it's easier to pull a DIO card and desolder the ROM than it is to dismantle a 9836 far enoguh to extract the video boards, but either is possible. -tony From olivier.2.smet at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 13:24:58 2011 From: olivier.2.smet at gmail.com (Olivier De Smet) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 20:24:58 +0100 Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For the SS80 protocol in a microcontroller, it could be done easelly. If you look at hp-7908.c file, there is very few microsoft dependancy (only writing and reading from a file which should be replaced by reading and writing to an sd card) the rest is just 2 circular buffers (it could be one of 9 bits data), a state machine and some functions to read and write to the buffers. Read and write from those buffers will be the more delicate to make because they should completely implement the 3 wires handshake of HPIB. On the emulator I only made the 3 wire hanshake for controller to instrument it was enough. By looking at picture from hpmuseum.net, i think that every model got is own charset as they don't share the same size of charcell on display. 9816 got one, 9826 another one, 9836 & 9836C certainly the same, 9837 another one >From the various doc I read, I think the HP898204A and HP898204B should have the same charset (but who knows) as the 9836. Olivier 2011/3/5 Tony Duell : >> >> The GPL V3.0 licence is included in the source archive of course. >> >> For the other project, someone already get the verilog HP86 in FPGA I >> have on my site >> to try to make this kind of stuff for amigo protocol. >> >> For fpga, I use a digilent evaluation board and the free tools from >> xillinx (they exists for windows and linux) >> The source for the whole HP86+HP9121/HP9895+serial line in verilog is >> gpl too .... >> >> It not very complicated, just some componentt to adjust levels, some >> buffers to map >> the inout nature of HPIB lines into IN part and OUT part for the fpga >> (it better this way), > > I was thinking that it should be fairly straightforward to bit-bang HPIB > through the port pins of a microcontorller (HP did this in some of their > machines, the 98034 uses an HP custom Nanocontroller chip, and IIRC the > 82169 uses an 8049with an HP buffer chip). That microcontroller could > also handle the SS/80 protocol and SD card interfce. > > Of course an FGPA could do those things too, so if somebody wants to make > a version fo this in an FPGA that would be great. > >> Btw as you 'distmantle' regularly your series 200 machines, do you >> think if it is possible to dump the >> rom of the character generators in the alpha part of the display board ? > > Sure. The ones that would be easiest for me to get to are the 9836C > (colour) and HP98204B (video card in the HP9817). I think I couldget to > an HP898204A card too. Do you want more than one character generator > dump, or is any one OK. Given the choice I'd rather do one of the 98204 > ones, simply becasue it's easier to pull a DIO card and desolder the ROM > than it is to dismantle a 9836 far enoguh to extract the video boards, > but either is possible. > > -tony > From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Mar 5 14:45:05 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 09:45:05 +1300 Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - Problem persists References: Message-ID: <37CE751A0E91492BB82760CAE6E49A1F@massey.ac.nz> Well, that doesn't sound too hard. I'll give it a crack! No, I don't own a scope but I do have access to one occasionally. At the moment the scope is back with the owner and he's away so I might not be able to tackle this until next month. But..there is no hurry. It's not like I have to use my second Lisa for any urgent purpose. This is a hobby and there is plenty to keep me busy in the meantime. Thanks Tony, I'll post progress when it happens. Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2011 5:16 AM Subject: Re: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - Problem persists >> >> >I think in my case if I had a drive with a spindle motor problem I >> > would see it through. YMMV >> >> Well, on thinking further I might just do that. I'm a little worried >> about >> the micro-surgery but what have I got to lose? > > Well, you don;'t want to make thigns worse if there's a chance you'll get > more skills later, on the other hand, I would certainly agree that > 'having a go' is rarely a bad idea. > >> >> I do have two drives and if a hall-effect device has gone in both there >> still should be enough good ones to go around for just one drive, right? >> I'm guessing they can be removed. > > Yes, you can remove them non-destructively. They have 4 pins soldered to > the PCB.. There are 3 in each motor, so if you only have one bad one > pwere drive,you have 4 good ones which is enough to get one motor going. > >> >> Is there any obvious way to tell wether an individual one is faulty once >> they are exposed? > > Is there any way you could borrow an oscilloscope? It doesn;'t need ot be > anyting fancy. What I would suggest doing is looking at the signals from > the hall effect devices at the pins o the TA7259 (IIRC) chip, I think > it's pins 1,2,3,4,13,14. If oyu have a ;scope with differential inputs, > you could look at the difference betwene 1 and 2, 3 and 4, 13 and 14. If > not, or if you're not sure about it, just look at each signal in turn > using AC coupling. > > My guess is that as this motor is going to rotatge around 600rpm (the > speed of the normal fixed-speed ones), the pulses will be a fre ms apart. > This will give yoy an idea of what timebase setting to use. > > Anyway, what you are looking for is a signal or pair of signals that > looks different to all the others. When you ahve foudn that, trace it > back to a hall device and change that one. > > Obviously you do this before dismantling the motor. > > -tony > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 5 15:11:29 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 21:11:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - Problem persists In-Reply-To: <37CE751A0E91492BB82760CAE6E49A1F@massey.ac.nz> from "terry stewart" at Mar 6, 11 09:45:05 am Message-ID: > > Well, that doesn't sound too hard. I'll give it a crack! > > No, I don't own a scope but I do have access to one occasionally. At the > moment the scope is back with the owner and he's away so I might not be able > to tackle this until next month. But..there is no hurry. It's not like I > have to use my second Lisa for any urgent purpose. This is a hobby and > there is plenty to keep me busy in the meantime. Sure. I find it's best to always have serveral projects 'on the go' so that if I am held up with one (lack of parts, tools, test gear, info, etc) I can get on with something else. In any case, when you get access to a 'scope, let me/us know and I'll give you some more information... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 5 15:20:06 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 21:20:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: from "Olivier De Smet" at Mar 5, 11 08:24:58 pm Message-ID: > > For the SS80 protocol in a microcontroller, it could be done easelly. > If you look at hp-7908.c file, there is very few microsoft dependancy > (only writing and reading from a file which should be replaced by reading > and writing to an sd card) the rest is just 2 circular buffers (it could be one OK, thanks. I will take a look at this when I have some spare time. > of 9 bits data), a state machine and some functions to read and write to the > buffers. I haev read the specifications for Amigo and CS/80, and they didn't look _that_ complciated. P > > Read and write from those buffers will be the more delicate to make because > they should completely implement the 3 wires handshake of HPIB. And I presume I'd have to impleemtn the low-level HPIB stuff, like SRQs, controller commands, addressing, etc. From what I rememebr, at least one fo the protocols uses secondary addresses in a very odd way. > > By looking at picture from hpmuseum.net, i think that every model got > is own charset > as they don't share the same size of charcell on display. I suspect you're right. Does this mean you want me to dump all the character generator ROMs in the end? > > 9816 got one, 9826 another one, 9836 & 9836C certainly the same, 9837 > another one I would not bet that hte 9836A nad 9836C are the same. They probably are, but the rest of the video system is very different so it's entirely possible that hte ROM changed too. I am pretty sure the 98204A (TV rate, used in the 9920 and 50960 [1]) and 98204B (faster (22kHz?) horizontal scan rate, drives a special HP monitor [2] and used in the 9817) have different character generator ROMs. [1] The little SRM network server in the same case as the 9817. It's closelt related ot the 9000/200 machines. [2] Actually made by Samsung in Korea. It;'s one of the few HP devices witha 'K' i nthe serial number. It also doesn't 'feel' like an HP device to work on. -tony From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 16:16:27 2011 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 17:16:27 -0500 Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This looks really cool. I'm hoping that now that the source has been released, the holy wars can end and Al will release some software to us so that we can enjoy this new toy (or tool) Mike From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Mar 5 17:12:21 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2011 15:12:21 -0800 Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D72C355.7020608@bitsavers.org> On 3/5/11 2:16 PM, Michael Kerpan wrote: > This looks really cool. I'm hoping that now that the source has been > released, the holy wars can end and Al will release some software to > us so that we can enjoy this new toy (or tool) > It is already on the HP Museum site. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Mar 5 17:56:44 2011 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 15:56:44 -0800 Subject: Lorlin Impact Test System Disk... Message-ID: <201103051556.45169.lbickley@bickleywest.com> I recently picked up a RL02 pack from a recycler. After doing my usual tear-down and clean process, I tested the pack on my 11/34C. It was 100% error free - and was initialized for RT-11. It is the system pack for a "Lorlin Impact Test System", Software Version 1.0M. It contains the IMPACT drivers (IMPACT.SYS) and the IMPACT main program (IMPACT.SAV). I do not have any Lorlin Impact hardware - so I plan to wipe the pack clean and use it for other purposes. However, before doing so, I wanted to pass it by this list - in case someone has a PDP-11 based Lorlin Impact system - and doesn't have this software. If you need this pack (or a copy of just the Lorlin Software), please contact me off list. Regards, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley, AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From spedraja at ono.com Sun Mar 6 05:10:26 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 12:10:26 +0100 Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The software stored in the HP Museum is in Teledisk Format. What must we do to convert it in something usable with the emulator ? Thanks Sergio From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 6 12:06:47 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 18:06:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Lorlin Impact Test System Disk... In-Reply-To: <201103051556.45169.lbickley@bickleywest.com> from "Lyle Bickley" at Mar 5, 11 03:56:44 pm Message-ID: > > I recently picked up a RL02 pack from a recycler. After doing my usual > tear-down and clean process, I tested the pack on my 11/34C. It was 100% ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ What do you do? I know the stanadard procedure for RK05 packs, but what do you dismantle, and how do you clean, the RL's? > error free - and was initialized for RT-11. It is the system pack for a > "Lorlin Impact Test System", Software Version 1.0M. It contains the > IMPACT drivers (IMPACT.SYS) and the IMPACT main program (IMPACT.SAV). > > I do not have any Lorlin Impact hardware - so I plan to wipe the pack > clean and use it for other purposes. > > However, before doing so, I wanted to pass it by this list - in case > someone has a PDP-11 based Lorlin Impact system - and doesn't have this > software. If you need this pack (or a copy of just the Lorlin Software), > please contact me off list. If the only non-standard stuff is the 2 files you mentioend (i.e. the rest is nroaml RT11 files), would it be possivble to transder those to some oterh medium so you can re-use this pack. Just in case somebody needs them in the future. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 6 12:03:14 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 18:03:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: <4D72C355.7020608@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Mar 5, 11 03:12:21 pm Message-ID: > > On 3/5/11 2:16 PM, Michael Kerpan wrote: > > This looks really cool. I'm hoping that now that the source has been > > released, the holy wars can end and Al will release some software to > > us so that we can enjoy this new toy (or tool) > > > > It is already on the HP Museum site. I asusme you mean the Australian site (http://www.hpmuseum.net/). There's been the BASIC and Pascal systems for the 9000/200s there fro a long time (and very useful they are too), but I thought you said you had some more stuff to release... -tony From spedraja at ono.com Sun Mar 6 12:59:23 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 19:59:23 +0100 Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: References: <4D72C355.7020608@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Thanks, Tony. Olivier told me how to proceed to convert the TDO images in the virtual disk format managed by his simulator. My question was related with this matter. Probably not in a correct manner, by the way Regards Sergio 2011/3/6 Tony Duell > > > > On 3/5/11 2:16 PM, Michael Kerpan wrote: > > > This looks really cool. I'm hoping that now that the source has been > > > released, the holy wars can end and Al will release some software to > > > us so that we can enjoy this new toy (or tool) > > > > > > > It is already on the HP Museum site. > > I asusme you mean the Australian site (http://www.hpmuseum.net/). There's > been the BASIC and Pascal systems for the 9000/200s there fro a long time > (and very useful they are too), but I thought you said you had some more > stuff to release... > > -tony > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 6 15:40:14 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2011 16:40:14 -0500 Subject: Heath H-1 analog computer Message-ID: <4D73FF3E.7020904@neurotica.com> Hey folks! I'm giggling like a little girl here, so I just wanted to share. :) Recently I was lucky enough to acquire a Heath H-1 analog computer from a very cool guy named Norman in Maine. My lady and I drove up there to pick it up. It's...just plain awesome. I've just finished putting together a page about it here, with pictures: http://www.neurotica.com/wiki/Heath_H-1_Analog_Computer -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Mar 6 15:52:53 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 21:52:53 -0000 Subject: I Never Knew That The VT100 Was A Computer :-) Message-ID: <007e01cbdc48$d9d370e0$8d7a52a0$@ntlworld.com> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270716450383&ssPageName =ADME:B:SS:GB:1123 Regards Rob From chrise at pobox.com Sun Mar 6 16:01:49 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 16:01:49 -0600 Subject: Lorlin Impact Test System Disk... In-Reply-To: References: <201103051556.45169.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <20110306220149.GD1992@n0jcf.net> On Sunday (03/06/2011 at 06:06PM +0000), Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I recently picked up a RL02 pack from a recycler. After doing my usual > > tear-down and clean process, I tested the pack on my 11/34C. It was 100% > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > What do you do? I know the stanadard procedure for RK05 packs, but what > do you dismantle, and how do you clean, the RL's? What a great topic... as I have been doing this exact effort for the past several weeks. I have completely cleaned and brought back online two RL02 and a third is just entering the process. Before I ever try to spin one up, I take the front panel off and remove the black pre-filter. It is guaranteed to be disintegrating and turning into a fine black powder. Exactly the kind of thing you don't want sucked into the drive. I vacuum out entire front area behind the front panel and the backside of the panel itself. I then take off the top covers and vacuum out the well where the pack sits and wipe the entire area down with a damp cloth. Clean out ALL the junk... cob webs, hairs, there will surely be a lot of junk in there. Then I clean out the rear near the fan. The fan blades will be loaded up with dust and I take off the grill and wipe those down with a Swiffer duster cloth as well as vacuum the whole fan assembly. Then there is the issue of the "absolute filter" which is the roughly 3" x 9" HEPA-like filter accessible from the front. I was fortunate to have one of these that was nearly new but others have been polluted by the disintegrating black foam pre-filter. I am currently looking at one that is completely black on the intake side-- totally loaded up with the black carbon-like dust that the pre-filter turns into. Not cool. I was just about to post to the list asking if there is a source for these absolute filters still (which I doubt) or if anyone has a process for rebuilding them? I've already stripped the filter element out of one and so I have an empty frame and am then considering modifying a HEPA filter for a room air cleaner or other appliance that uses a HEPA filter module. I will have to cut the filter to size and then glue it into the frame (similar to how these originals were made) using an elastomeric caulk or similar. But-- is there a better way?? After dust and dirt cleaning... then I clean the heads. I very carefully use a cotton swap soaked in isopropyl alchohol... 91%... drug store stuff... and rub it between the lower and upper head, sort of twirling it back and forth which removes the junk on the head pretty easily. I do this several times until the cotton swap comes out clean. At this point, I am brave enough to try to spin the drive up. I will take a known good not not precious pack and put it in the drive. You of course have to have a controller connected to the drive and powered on so that the drive gets clock over the interface. At this point you should have the fault light out and the load light lit. You can press load and hear the drive spin up. Hopefully. I have one drive that will spin up, attempt to load the heads and then immediately fault. After several experiments trying to get this drive to load the heads so that I could do some of the alignment procedures, I found that it was actually crashing the head into the media and I wrecked that pack. That drive is now a parts donor. I don't know exactly the failure mode but I suspect that the spindle is no longer aligned with the heads... due to some abuse like the thing being dropped. Dunno for sure. If you get to this point and the drive spins up and doesn't crash the heads then you can try to read the pack using one of the diags in XXDP2.5. I use ZRLMB1 which will read the entire pack and report the bad sectors found. On one of my drives I had consistent failures at cylinder 490 and beyond... which after performing the read amplifier gain adjustment procedure found here, http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/disc/rl01_rl02/EK-RL122-TM-001_techAug82.pdf the problem went away. I set the gain just slightly hotter than they spec on the theory that many of these packs are old now and probably produce a weaker signal than originally designed. I repeat the test across a selection of packs to get the average signal level too since I don't have a "standard" test pack (saw one on eBay for $1000 the other day!!) So, I have had good luck with 2 out of 3 RL02 so far. These filters might be an interesting challenge but I don't think insurmountable. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From chrise at pobox.com Sun Mar 6 16:04:00 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 16:04:00 -0600 Subject: Lorlin Impact Test System Disk... In-Reply-To: <20110306220149.GD1992@n0jcf.net> References: <201103051556.45169.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <20110306220149.GD1992@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20110306220400.GE1992@n0jcf.net> OK. I totally misread the original posting. I thought the discussion was about the RL02 drive and not the packs. Apologies. I'd love to hear how to take the packs apart and clean them... Chris On Sunday (03/06/2011 at 04:01PM -0600), Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Sunday (03/06/2011 at 06:06PM +0000), Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > I recently picked up a RL02 pack from a recycler. After doing my usual > > > tear-down and clean process, I tested the pack on my 11/34C. It was 100% > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > What do you do? I know the stanadard procedure for RK05 packs, but what > > do you dismantle, and how do you clean, the RL's? > > What a great topic... as I have been doing this exact effort for the > past several weeks. I have completely cleaned and brought back online > two RL02 and a third is just entering the process. > > Before I ever try to spin one up, I take the front panel off and remove > the black pre-filter. It is guaranteed to be disintegrating and turning > into a fine black powder. Exactly the kind of thing you don't want > sucked into the drive. > > I vacuum out entire front area behind the front panel and the backside > of the panel itself. > > I then take off the top covers and vacuum out the well where the pack > sits and wipe the entire area down with a damp cloth. Clean out ALL > the junk... cob webs, hairs, there will surely be a lot of junk in there. > > Then I clean out the rear near the fan. The fan blades will be loaded > up with dust and I take off the grill and wipe those down with a Swiffer > duster cloth as well as vacuum the whole fan assembly. > > Then there is the issue of the "absolute filter" which is the roughly > 3" x 9" HEPA-like filter accessible from the front. I was fortunate > to have one of these that was nearly new but others have been polluted > by the disintegrating black foam pre-filter. I am currently looking at > one that is completely black on the intake side-- totally loaded up with > the black carbon-like dust that the pre-filter turns into. Not cool. > > I was just about to post to the list asking if there is a source for these > absolute filters still (which I doubt) or if anyone has a process for > rebuilding them? I've already stripped the filter element out of one and > so I have an empty frame and am then considering modifying a HEPA filter > for a room air cleaner or other appliance that uses a HEPA filter module. > I will have to cut the filter to size and then glue it into the frame > (similar to how these originals were made) using an elastomeric caulk > or similar. But-- is there a better way?? > > After dust and dirt cleaning... then I clean the heads. I very carefully > use a cotton swap soaked in isopropyl alchohol... 91%... drug store > stuff... and rub it between the lower and upper head, sort of twirling > it back and forth which removes the junk on the head pretty easily. > I do this several times until the cotton swap comes out clean. > > At this point, I am brave enough to try to spin the drive up. I will > take a known good not not precious pack and put it in the drive. You > of course have to have a controller connected to the drive and powered > on so that the drive gets clock over the interface. At this point you > should have the fault light out and the load light lit. You can press > load and hear the drive spin up. Hopefully. I have one drive that will > spin up, attempt to load the heads and then immediately fault. After > several experiments trying to get this drive to load the heads so that I > could do some of the alignment procedures, I found that it was actually > crashing the head into the media and I wrecked that pack. That drive is > now a parts donor. I don't know exactly the failure mode but I suspect > that the spindle is no longer aligned with the heads... due to some > abuse like the thing being dropped. Dunno for sure. > > If you get to this point and the drive spins up and doesn't crash the > heads then you can try to read the pack using one of the diags in XXDP2.5. > I use ZRLMB1 which will read the entire pack and report the bad sectors > found. On one of my drives I had consistent failures at cylinder 490 > and beyond... which after performing the read amplifier gain adjustment > procedure found here, > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/disc/rl01_rl02/EK-RL122-TM-001_techAug82.pdf > > the problem went away. I set the gain just slightly hotter than they spec > on the theory that many of these packs are old now and probably produce > a weaker signal than originally designed. I repeat the test across a > selection of packs to get the average signal level too since I don't > have a "standard" test pack (saw one on eBay for $1000 the other day!!) > > So, I have had good luck with 2 out of 3 RL02 so far. These filters > might be an interesting challenge but I don't think insurmountable. > > Chris > > -- > Chris Elmquist > -- Chris Elmquist From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Mar 6 16:16:25 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 14:16:25 -0800 Subject: Heath H-1 analog computer In-Reply-To: <4D73FF3E.7020904@neurotica.com> References: <4D73FF3E.7020904@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <142af464a2978199d5c4c9d4d770b244@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Mar 6, at 1:40 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Hey folks! I'm giggling like a little girl here, so I just wanted > to share. :) Recently I was lucky enough to acquire a Heath H-1 > analog computer from a very cool guy named Norman in Maine. My lady > and I drove up there to pick it up. It's...just plain awesome. > > I've just finished putting together a page about it here, with > pictures: > > http://www.neurotica.com/wiki/Heath_H-1_Analog_Computer Great acquisition. Looks really nice and in good condition aside from that rust on the horizontal surfaces by the power supply. I've seen photos of the H-1 before, but didn't realise it was so large. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 6 17:06:45 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2011 18:06:45 -0500 Subject: Heath H-1 analog computer In-Reply-To: <142af464a2978199d5c4c9d4d770b244@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4D73FF3E.7020904@neurotica.com> <142af464a2978199d5c4c9d4d770b244@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4D741385.6060704@neurotica.com> On 3/6/11 5:16 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> Hey folks! I'm giggling like a little girl here, so I just wanted to >> share. :) Recently I was lucky enough to acquire a Heath H-1 analog >> computer from a very cool guy named Norman in Maine. My lady and I >> drove up there to pick it up. It's...just plain awesome. >> >> I've just finished putting together a page about it here, with pictures: >> >> http://www.neurotica.com/wiki/Heath_H-1_Analog_Computer > > Great acquisition. Looks really nice and in good condition aside from > that rust on the horizontal surfaces by the power supply. The chassis is very modular; I plan to remove those panels and hit them with some fine sandpaper to take care of that rust. > I've seen photos of the H-1 before, but didn't realise it was so large. It certainly is. As I just mentioned on another list that you may have seen, it's 30" wide, 25" deep, and 17" tall including the top-mounted tubes in the amplifiers. It weighs about 180lbs. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Mar 6 17:27:18 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2011 15:27:18 -0800 Subject: I Never Knew That The VT100 Was A Computer :-) In-Reply-To: <007e01cbdc48$d9d370e0$8d7a52a0$@ntlworld.com> References: <007e01cbdc48$d9d370e0$8d7a52a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4D741856.3090601@brouhaha.com> Well, it has an 8080 microprocessor, ROM, RAM, input (keyboard and serial), and output (video display and serial). What more do you want? :-) From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Mar 6 17:33:00 2011 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2011 17:33:00 -0600 Subject: Pacific Educational Systems VPU-1 External Voice Synth Message-ID: <4D7419AC.60304@brutman.com> This is an external voice synthesis box based on an Intel 8031 micro-controller and a TSP5220CNL synthesis chip. It has an RS232 interface, volume and tone knobs, a headphone jack and an RCA jack for external audio. Does anybody remember these things and how to talk to them? I've tried all of the various bps rate and parity combinations from 300 to 19200 and I can't get anything response (data or sound). Thanks, Mike From dgahling at hotmail.com Sun Mar 6 18:32:03 2011 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 19:32:03 -0500 Subject: I Never Knew That The VT100 Was A Computer :-) In-Reply-To: <4D741856.3090601@brouhaha.com> References: <007e01cbdc48$d9d370e0$8d7a52a0$@ntlworld.com>, <4D741856.3090601@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: What I like even more is thatit's nothing more than a plain generic dust cover - retail cost about $2and notice the generic product tag with the "hand written" note saying "DEC VT100". Wow, can I stick a hand written sticker on an old 13" CRT claiming its a DEC terminal and sell it for lots of money?/sarcasm Dan. > Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 15:27:18 -0800 > From: eric at brouhaha.com > To: > Subject: Re: I Never Knew That The VT100 Was A Computer :-) > > Well, it has an 8080 microprocessor, ROM, RAM, input (keyboard and > serial), and output (video display and serial). What more do you want? :-) From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Mar 6 18:41:03 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 16:41:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Heath H-1 analog computer In-Reply-To: <4D73FF3E.7020904@neurotica.com> References: <4D73FF3E.7020904@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Mar 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > Hey folks! I'm giggling like a little girl here, so I just wanted to > share. :) Recently I was lucky enough to acquire a Heath H-1 analog computer > from a very cool guy named Norman in Maine. My lady and I drove up there to > pick it up. It's...just plain awesome. > > I've just finished putting together a page about it here, with pictures: > > http://www.neurotica.com/wiki/Heath_H-1_Analog_Computer Very nice. I'm reminded of a modular synthesizer. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Mar 6 18:55:58 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2011 18:55:58 -0600 Subject: Heath H-1 analog computer In-Reply-To: <4D741385.6060704@neurotica.com> References: <4D73FF3E.7020904@neurotica.com> <142af464a2978199d5c4c9d4d770b244@cs.ubc.ca> <4D741385.6060704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201103070101.p2711kGM047719@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 05:06 PM 3/6/2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > It certainly is. As I just mentioned on another list that you may have seen, it's 30" wide, 25" deep, and 17" tall including the top-mounted tubes in the amplifiers. It weighs about 180lbs. Wonderful! Any idea of how many of these are still around, apart from the one at CHM? - John From legalize at xmission.com Sun Mar 6 19:27:28 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2011 18:27:28 -0700 Subject: I Never Knew That The VT100 Was A Computer :-) In-Reply-To: <007e01cbdc48$d9d370e0$8d7a52a0$@ntlworld.com> References: <007e01cbdc48$d9d370e0$8d7a52a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Yeah, its just a dust cover, but some models of VT100 are bona-fide computers. There is one with a PDP-8 (called a DECmate) and one with an LSI-11 (called a VT180). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 6 20:16:19 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 18:16:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: I Never Knew That The VT100 Was A Computer :-) In-Reply-To: <007e01cbdc48$d9d370e0$8d7a52a0$@ntlworld.com> References: <007e01cbdc48$d9d370e0$8d7a52a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20110306180757.C91898@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 6 Mar 2011, Rob Jarratt wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270716450383&ssPageName > =ADME:B:SS:GB:1123 Chuck and I each used to get a lot of disks to convert where the owner was unable to even say what machine they came from. "My computer is clearly labelled. It is a: Lear Sigler VT100 ADM-3A Wyse Televideo " But are they looking at the computer, or at a terminal? A lot of those had Morrow Designs, Northstar, etc. copyright messages in the system tracks of the disk. Out in my storage shed, I have a "DISKON" computer, which is a single board computer that was built into a slightly modified Televideo terminal. They were peddled for disk format conversion. At one point, I offered it here and didn't get any takers. When I tried to boot it, I got a disk read error. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 6 20:27:27 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 18:27:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: I Never Knew That The VT100 Was A Computer :-) In-Reply-To: <4D741856.3090601@brouhaha.com> References: <007e01cbdc48$d9d370e0$8d7a52a0$@ntlworld.com> <4D741856.3090601@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20110306182706.D91898@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 6 Mar 2011, Eric Smith wrote: > Well, it has an 8080 microprocessor, ROM, RAM, input (keyboard and > serial), and output (video display and serial). What more do you want? :-) An 8 inch drive. From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Mar 6 20:36:53 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2011 21:36:53 -0500 Subject: I Never Knew That The VT100 Was A Computer :-) In-Reply-To: <20110306180757.C91898@shell.lmi.net> References: <007e01cbdc48$d9d370e0$8d7a52a0$@ntlworld.com> <20110306180757.C91898@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4D7444C5.3020506@verizon.net> There there is the VT100 look alike the VT180 which uses all the VT100 boards and an additional VT180 board (Z80, 64K ram, FDC, serial ports..). Many of the upgraded Vt100s that ran CP/M still have the VT100 badge. There there wer the VT103s, a vt100 with a Qbus card rack and could have and of the Qbus PDP11s (and i've even seen Qbus microVAX) board in them! Vt100 was the first DEC terminal that wasn't a state machine or some random logic sortacpu. However there were a lot of 8080based Terminals before the 8085, z80 and cheaper 8048 hit the scene. Allison On 03/06/2011 09:16 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 6 Mar 2011, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270716450383&ssPageName >> =ADME:B:SS:GB:1123 > Chuck and I each used to get a lot of disks to convert where the owner was > unable to even say what machine they came from. > > "My computer is clearly labelled. It is a: > Lear Sigler > VT100 > ADM-3A > Wyse > Televideo > " > > But are they looking at the computer, or at a terminal? A lot of those > had Morrow Designs, Northstar, etc. copyright messages in the system > tracks of the disk. > > > Out in my storage shed, I have a "DISKON" computer, which is a single > board computer that was built into a slightly modified Televideo terminal. > They were peddled for disk format conversion. At one point, I offered it > here and didn't get any takers. When I tried to boot it, I got a disk > read error. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 6 20:56:22 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 18:56:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pacific Educational Systems VPU-1 External Voice Synth In-Reply-To: <4D7419AC.60304@brutman.com> References: <4D7419AC.60304@brutman.com> Message-ID: <20110306182811.W91898@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 6 Mar 2011, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > This is an external voice synthesis box based on an Intel 8031 > micro-controller and a TSP5220CNL synthesis chip. It has an RS232 > interface, volume and tone knobs, a headphone jack and an RCA jack for > external audio. > Does anybody remember these things and how to talk to them? I've tried > all of the various bps rate and parity combinations from 300 to 19200 > and I can't get anything response (data or sound). I don't remember anything useful. Usually. I remember connecting a serial voice output unit to a TRS80 model 2, at the request of a Radio Shack "Computer Center". They gave me a Model 2 Technical Reference Manual (in addition to my invoice) for doing it! The part that is relevant is that it required, for it's handshaking, a jumper on a DB25 connector that was NOT pins 1 through 8 or 20. It may have been 10, 12, or 22, none of which made any sense to me at the time, but that is what that peripheral demanded. From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Mar 6 21:24:37 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2011 19:24:37 -0800 Subject: I Never Knew That The VT100 Was A Computer :-) In-Reply-To: References: <007e01cbdc48$d9d370e0$8d7a52a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4D744FF5.2070709@mail.msu.edu> On 3/6/2011 5:27 PM, Richard wrote: > Yeah, its just a dust cover, but some models of VT100 are bona-fide > computers. > > There is one with a PDP-8 (called a DECmate) and one with an LSI-11 > (called a VT180). The VT180 is a CP/M machine (IIRC). The VT103 has the LSI-11 backplane. Josh From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 6 21:53:44 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2011 22:53:44 -0500 Subject: Heath H-1 analog computer In-Reply-To: <201103070101.p2711kGM047719@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <4D73FF3E.7020904@neurotica.com> <142af464a2978199d5c4c9d4d770b244@cs.ubc.ca> <4D741385.6060704@neurotica.com> <201103070101.p2711kGM047719@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4D7456C8.4050707@neurotica.com> On 3/6/11 7:55 PM, John Foust wrote: >> It certainly is. As I just mentioned on another list that you may have seen, it's 30" wide, 25" deep, and 17" tall including the top-mounted tubes in the amplifiers. It weighs about 180lbs. > > Wonderful! Any idea of how many of these are still around, apart > from the one at CHM? Apart from CHM's and one in a private museum in Germany, I don't know of any others. I've not searched exhaustively. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From evan at snarc.net Sun Mar 6 21:57:04 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2011 22:57:04 -0500 Subject: Heath H-1 analog computer In-Reply-To: <4D7456C8.4050707@neurotica.com> References: <4D73FF3E.7020904@neurotica.com> <142af464a2978199d5c4c9d4d770b244@cs.ubc.ca> <4D741385.6060704@neurotica.com> <201103070101.p2711kGM047719@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4D7456C8.4050707@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D745790.2090907@snarc.net> > >>> It certainly is. As I just mentioned on another list that you may >>> have seen, it's 30" wide, 25" deep, and 17" tall including the >>> top-mounted tubes in the amplifiers. It weighs about 180lbs. >> >> Wonderful! Any idea of how many of these are still around, apart >> from the one at CHM? > > Apart from CHM's and one in a private museum in Germany, I don't know > of any others. Somebody in MARCH has one. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 6 21:58:31 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2011 22:58:31 -0500 Subject: Heath H-1 analog computer In-Reply-To: <4D745790.2090907@snarc.net> References: <4D73FF3E.7020904@neurotica.com> <142af464a2978199d5c4c9d4d770b244@cs.ubc.ca> <4D741385.6060704@neurotica.com> <201103070101.p2711kGM047719@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4D7456C8.4050707@neurotica.com> <4D745790.2090907@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4D7457E7.70600@neurotica.com> On 3/6/11 10:57 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >>>> It certainly is. As I just mentioned on another list that you may >>>> have seen, it's 30" wide, 25" deep, and 17" tall including the >>>> top-mounted tubes in the amplifiers. It weighs about 180lbs. >>> >>> Wonderful! Any idea of how many of these are still around, apart from >>> the one at CHM? >> >> Apart from CHM's and one in a private museum in Germany, I don't know >> of any others. > > Somebody in MARCH has one. Excellent! Can you put us in touch? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From evan at snarc.net Sun Mar 6 22:08:36 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2011 23:08:36 -0500 Subject: Heath H-1 analog computer In-Reply-To: <4D7457E7.70600@neurotica.com> References: <4D73FF3E.7020904@neurotica.com> <142af464a2978199d5c4c9d4d770b244@cs.ubc.ca> <4D741385.6060704@neurotica.com> <201103070101.p2711kGM047719@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4D7456C8.4050707@neurotica.com> <4D745790.2090907@snarc.net> <4D7457E7.70600@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D745A44.9030501@snarc.net> >>>>> It certainly is. As I just mentioned on another list that you may >>>>> have seen, it's 30" wide, 25" deep, and 17" tall including the >>>>> top-mounted tubes in the amplifiers. It weighs about 180lbs. >>>> >>>> Wonderful! Any idea of how many of these are still around, apart >>>> from the one at CHM? >>> >>> Apart from CHM's and one in a private museum in Germany, I don't >>> know of any others. >> >> Somebody in MARCH has one. > > Excellent! Can you put us in touch? The person reads this list. I'll let him decide. :) From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Mar 6 22:10:29 2011 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2011 22:10:29 -0600 Subject: Pacific Educational Systems VPU-1 External Voice Synth In-Reply-To: <20110306182811.W91898@shell.lmi.net> References: <4D7419AC.60304@brutman.com> <20110306182811.W91898@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4D745AB5.6070903@brutman.com> On 3/6/2011 8:56 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 6 Mar 2011, Michael B. Brutman wrote: >> This is an external voice synthesis box based on an Intel 8031 >> micro-controller and a TSP5220CNL synthesis chip. It has an RS232 >> interface, volume and tone knobs, a headphone jack and an RCA jack for >> external audio. >> Does anybody remember these things and how to talk to them? I've tried >> all of the various bps rate and parity combinations from 300 to 19200 >> and I can't get anything response (data or sound). > > I don't remember anything useful. Usually. > I remember connecting a serial voice output unit to a TRS80 model 2, at > the request of a Radio Shack "Computer Center". They gave me a Model 2 > Technical Reference Manual (in addition to my invoice) for doing it! The > part that is relevant is that it required, for it's handshaking, a jumper > on a DB25 connector that was NOT pins 1 through 8 or 20. It may have been > 10, 12, or 22, none of which made any sense to me at the time, but that is > what that peripheral demanded. > > Luck and some digging around has turned up information faster than usual. Somebody I knew from PCjr experience was working with this same box recently, adding support to MESS (Multiple Emulator Super System). And he pointed me at somebody's blog where they discussed all of the short comings of the device, and even provide a better ROM for the microcontroller to help the flow control. So I'm happy for a bit, and now I'm going to learn about LPC encoding ... Mike From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 6 22:11:09 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2011 23:11:09 -0500 Subject: Heath H-1 analog computer In-Reply-To: <4D745A44.9030501@snarc.net> References: <4D73FF3E.7020904@neurotica.com> <142af464a2978199d5c4c9d4d770b244@cs.ubc.ca> <4D741385.6060704@neurotica.com> <201103070101.p2711kGM047719@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4D7456C8.4050707@neurotica.com> <4D745790.2090907@snarc.net> <4D7457E7.70600@neurotica.com> <4D745A44.9030501@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4D745ADD.6070003@neurotica.com> On 3/6/11 11:08 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >>>>>> It certainly is. As I just mentioned on another list that you may >>>>>> have seen, it's 30" wide, 25" deep, and 17" tall including the >>>>>> top-mounted tubes in the amplifiers. It weighs about 180lbs. >>>>> >>>>> Wonderful! Any idea of how many of these are still around, apart >>>>> from the one at CHM? >>>> >>>> Apart from CHM's and one in a private museum in Germany, I don't >>>> know of any others. >>> >>> Somebody in MARCH has one. >> >> Excellent! Can you put us in touch? > > The person reads this list. I'll let him decide. :) Ok. Thanks! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Mar 6 22:23:56 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 20:23:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Heath H-1 analog computer In-Reply-To: <4D741385.6060704@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Mar 6, 11 06:06:45 pm" Message-ID: <201103070423.p274NuKi012448@floodgap.com> > > Great acquisition. Looks really nice and in good condition aside from > > that rust on the horizontal surfaces by the power supply. > > The chassis is very modular; I plan to remove those panels and hit > them with some fine sandpaper to take care of that rust. > > > I've seen photos of the H-1 before, but didn't realise it was so large. > > It certainly is. As I just mentioned on another list that you may > have seen, it's 30" wide, 25" deep, and 17" tall including the > top-mounted tubes in the amplifiers. It weighs about 180lbs. Gorgeous machine. Glad it's going to a good home. :) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- On the Internet, everyone suspects you're a dog. -- Kristen Kelleher ------- From legalize at xmission.com Sun Mar 6 22:45:28 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2011 21:45:28 -0700 Subject: I Never Knew That The VT100 Was A Computer :-) In-Reply-To: <4D744FF5.2070709@mail.msu.edu> References: <007e01cbdc48$d9d370e0$8d7a52a0$@ntlworld.com> <4D744FF5.2070709@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: In article <4D744FF5.2070709 at mail.msu.edu>, Josh Dersch writes: > > On 3/6/2011 5:27 PM, Richard wrote: > > Yeah, its just a dust cover, but some models of VT100 are bona-fide > > computers. > > > > There is one with a PDP-8 (called a DECmate) and one with an LSI-11 > > (called a VT180). > > The VT180 is a CP/M machine (IIRC). The VT103 has the LSI-11 backplane. Thanks for the correction; that was from memory. I think I have one of all three in the collection. I really need to catalog all the VT100s and related gear that I have; they're mishmashing all together in my little grey cells. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Mar 7 00:09:09 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2011 23:09:09 -0700 Subject: photos from the Living Computer Museum (Seattle, WA) Message-ID: On a trip to Seattle last week, Rich Alderson was nice enough to show me around the Living Computer Museum's hardware collection. Here are captioned photos from my trip. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From evan at snarc.net Mon Mar 7 00:25:31 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 01:25:31 -0500 Subject: VCF East flier is available Message-ID: <4D747A5B.1000502@snarc.net> Here's the link: http://www.snarc.net/vcfe7flier.pdf .... please share widely! - Evan From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 7 00:33:07 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2011 22:33:07 -0800 Subject: I Never Knew That The VT100 Was A Computer :-) In-Reply-To: <20110306180757.C91898@shell.lmi.net> References: <007e01cbdc48$d9d370e0$8d7a52a0$@ntlworld.com>, <20110306180757.C91898@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4D740BA3.14124.318594F@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Mar 2011 at 18:16, Fred Cisin wrote: > "My computer is clearly labelled. It is a: > Lear Sigler > VT100 > ADM-3A > Wyse > Televideo You forgot "Hazeltime". I was looking through my archive and spotted a disk labeled that. I recall, unsuccessfully, trying to get the owner of the system to tell me what it *really* was. He didn't send me a system disk, so I never did find out... --Chuck P.S. I hated the Hazeltine 1400. Who the heck uses tilde as an escape lead-in character? From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 7 03:01:07 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 01:01:07 -0800 Subject: "300 Baud" magazine shuts down Message-ID: <4D749ED3.6050506@brouhaha.com> Issue #3 is unfortunately the final issue. You can now get PDF files of issues 1 through 3 from their web site: http://www.300baudmagazine.com/ From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Mar 7 03:26:24 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 10:26:24 +0100 Subject: photos from the Living Computer Museum (Seattle, WA) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110307092623.GA14580@Update.UU.SE> On Sun, Mar 06, 2011 at 11:09:09PM -0700, Richard wrote: > On a trip to Seattle last week, Rich Alderson was nice enough to show > me around the Living Computer Museum's hardware collection. Here are > captioned photos from my trip. > > Nice! The custom flipchip storage and PDP-12 look familiar. Is this where Robert Krtens collection went? Also, I can't wait for the MASSBUSS to PC converter to become available! Perhaps I can then help bring another PDP-10 back to life. Rich: Is there anything about the converter that is specific to the PDP-10 ? Or can it be used with an 11 as well? Regards, Pontus. From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Mar 7 08:12:14 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 09:12:14 -0500 Subject: "300 Baud" magazine shuts down Message-ID: Eric writes: > Issue #3 is unfortunately the final issue. > You can now get PDF files of issues 1 through 3 from their web site: > http://www.300baudmagazine.com/ And I never knew it existed until now :-(. The enthusiastic attitude and WIDE pop-culture-artifact orientation reminds me a lot of CHAC newsletters (did they/Kip Crosby do anything past the mid-90's?) Tim. From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Mar 7 07:34:19 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 05:34:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: "300 Baud" magazine shuts down In-Reply-To: <4D749ED3.6050506@brouhaha.com> References: <4D749ED3.6050506@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Mar 2011, Eric Smith wrote: > Issue #3 is unfortunately the final issue. > > You can now get PDF files of issues 1 through 3 from their web site: > http://www.300baudmagazine.com/ That's a shame, it was kind of a neat magazine. I'd purchased both issues and wasn't aware #3 was out already. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 7 09:03:17 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 10:03:17 -0500 Subject: photos from the Living Computer Museum (Seattle, WA) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D74F3B5.3000308@neurotica.com> On 3/7/11 1:09 AM, Richard wrote: > On a trip to Seattle last week, Rich Alderson was nice enough to show > me around the Living Computer Museum's hardware collection. Here are > captioned photos from my trip. > > I just drooled all over my shirt. Thanks for the great pics! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 7 09:50:05 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 10:50:05 -0500 Subject: Heath H-1 analog computer In-Reply-To: <201103070423.p274NuKi012448@floodgap.com> References: <201103070423.p274NuKi012448@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4D74FEAD.8060901@neurotica.com> On 3/6/11 11:23 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> Great acquisition. Looks really nice and in good condition aside from >>> that rust on the horizontal surfaces by the power supply. >> >> The chassis is very modular; I plan to remove those panels and hit >> them with some fine sandpaper to take care of that rust. >> >>> I've seen photos of the H-1 before, but didn't realise it was so large. >> >> It certainly is. As I just mentioned on another list that you may >> have seen, it's 30" wide, 25" deep, and 17" tall including the >> top-mounted tubes in the amplifiers. It weighs about 180lbs. > > Gorgeous machine. Glad it's going to a good home. :) :-) I'm going to start cleaning it up tonight or tomorrow. I'm not going with paper towels this time...I'm headed straight for those "decorative" wash rags that the lady says not to touch. =) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 7 10:04:17 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 08:04:17 -0800 Subject: "300 Baud" magazine shuts down In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 9:12 AM -0500 3/7/11, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >Eric writes: >> Issue #3 is unfortunately the final issue. >> You can now get PDF files of issues 1 through 3 from their web site: >> http://www.300baudmagazine.com/ > >And I never knew it existed until now :-(. Now I don't feel so bad! :-) I didn't know they existed until now either. I just downloaded them. I'll have to look through them later though. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From philip at axeside.co.uk Sat Mar 5 04:18:07 2011 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2011 10:18:07 +0000 Subject: Free: Stack of Victor or Sirius floppy disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D720DDF.4010500@axeside.co.uk> >>> Send one to Philip. But, don't tell him what's special about the format >>> until he ferrets it out! :-) When I first read that, I thought "How did Fred know I had a Sirius?" :-) I haven't done anything with my Sirius for years, so I can't easily justify buying more disks for it. But if you have no other takers, I might try and scrape together the shipping. Where are you? > I can tell you the controller PCB schematic is almost identical to the > relevant bits of the Commodore 8050 (not suprising, given the designer). > I have no idea if the contents of the encoder/decoder ROM are the same > though, and that you would need to know. Interesting. The Sirius was famous in its day for the "wining tones" of the variable speed disk drive, which the Commodore didn't have (in a later post someone says that the Commodore drives changed the data rate instead), so I'm surprised they're so similar. Philip. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 15:16:49 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 13:16:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: need a Pentium 75 and heatsink Message-ID: <915796.23677.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> hope this isn't ot if you have one in your stash, let me know From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Mar 7 10:30:29 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 08:30:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking for an Apple Profile hard drive - dead or alive Message-ID: <102836.27470.qm@web121612.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Does anyone have an Apple Profile drive they aren't using? I have need for one. Does not need to work. Thanks! -Ian From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Mar 7 10:24:45 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 08:24:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Free: Stack of Victor or Sirius floppy disks In-Reply-To: <4D720DDF.4010500@axeside.co.uk> References: <4D720DDF.4010500@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Mar 2011, Philip Belben wrote: > > Interesting. The Sirius was famous in its day for the "wining tones" of the > variable speed disk drive, which the Commodore didn't have (in a later post > someone says that the Commodore drives changed the data rate instead), so I'm > surprised they're so similar. > Didn't Chuck Peddle design the Sirius? It would explain the commonality in features between its drives and the Commodore drives. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 7 12:11:37 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 10:11:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Free: Stack of Victor or Sirius floppy disks In-Reply-To: <4D720DDF.4010500@axeside.co.uk> References: <4D720DDF.4010500@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <20110307100710.X18890@shell.lmi.net> > >>> Send one to Philip. But, don't tell him what's special about the format > >>> until he ferrets it out! :-) On Sat, 5 Mar 2011, Philip Belben wrote: > When I first read that, I thought "How did Fred know I had a Sirius?" :-) Sorry. I was referring to DiskFerret Philip. We need to keep him supplied with all of the weirdest ones. I always thougth that the Sirius/Victor 9000 was a significant machine, just because it was one of the last to do things differently. Kind of a serious office version of the Commodore (which was a serious home machine) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 7 12:16:19 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 10:16:19 -0800 Subject: Free: Stack of Victor or Sirius floppy disks In-Reply-To: References: , <4D720DDF.4010500@axeside.co.uk>, Message-ID: <4D74B073.27551.54F62E@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Mar 2011 at 8:24, Gene Buckle wrote: > Didn't Chuck Peddle design the Sirius? It would explain the > commonality in features between its drives and the Commodore drives. I believe so, but it was called the Victor 9000 initially (and here in the US)--and I believe in the same area where Al Shugart was getting Seagate going. I remember that you could see the Victor building as you were going through Scotts Valley on highway 17. The name of the company was originally Sirius, but was changed to Victor after the merger with the Victor Business Products division (remember the Victor Comptometer?) of Kidde (the fire extinguisher maker) who was the chief source of capital for Peddle's venture. The early years were a storm of legal squabbling over names. Peddle's Sirius Systems Technology lost a lawsuit by Sirius Software over the firm name. The new Victor then went about suing anyone in the electronics business who was using the name Victor (including a fellow running a TV and appliance store who had used the name for 30 years). A typical Silicon Valley riches-to-rags story. The firm lasted less than 5 years. There was a prevalent myth that an innovator, once successful, could repeat history. Anyone remember Gene Amdahl and how fast he burned through venture capital with WSI? --Chuck From david at classiccomputing.com Mon Mar 7 12:46:20 2011 From: david at classiccomputing.com (David Greelish) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 13:46:20 -0500 Subject: "300 Baud" magazine shuts down In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Eric writes: >> Issue #3 is unfortunately the final issue. >> You can now get PDF files of issues 1 through 3 from their web site: >> http://www.300baudmagazine.com/ > > And I never knew it existed until now :-(. > > The enthusiastic attitude and WIDE pop-culture-artifact orientation > reminds me a lot of CHAC newsletters (did they/Kip Crosby do anything > past the mid-90's?) > > Tim. Ahhhhh, it doesn't remind you of my little publication at all? http://www.classiccomputing.com/hb.html Kip's web page stopped updating around 1997 and I haven't spoken with him in detail about what happened. I'm trying to get an interview going with him. He went on to co-author a book about Windows 98 and I don't know after that - http://www.amazon.com/Windows-1998-Bible-Frederic-Davis/dp/0201696908/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1299523469&sr=8-4 Best, David Greelish, Computer Historian Classic Computing The Home of Computer History Nostalgia http://www.classiccomputing.com Classic Computing Blog Classic Computing Show video podcast "Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer" audiobook podcast Retro Computing Roundtable podcast Historical Computer Society From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Mar 7 13:15:59 2011 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 11:15:59 -0800 Subject: RL02 Pack tear-down and clean (was: Lorlin Impact Test System Disk...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201103071115.59795.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Sunday 06 March 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I recently picked up a RL02 pack from a recycler. After doing my usual > > tear-down and clean process, I tested the pack on my 11/34C. It was 100% > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > What do you do? I know the standard procedure for RK05 packs, but what > do you dismantle, and how do you clean, the RLs? I have two RL02's on my 11/34C and one on my 11/83. I have a spare RL02 which I recently rebuilt (including new heads), and a working spare RL01. Given that I use RL02 packs regularly - especially on my 11/34C, I felt it critical that I carefully clean and verify packs as much as possible before mounting them in a RL0x drive. Let me say upfront that I've successfully used this procedure on the 32+ packs that I have in stock - which are all 100% - no bad blocks (some using substitute records, of course). I have six or seven packs in storage that did not pass initial "inspection", which I have never mounted in an RL02 for testing. I have not had one crash using a pack that passed this procedure. Tear-down / Clean Procedure --------------------------- Supplies/Tools needed: 1. Dust/Lint free wipes (such as KimWipes S-200) 2. Single ended swabs - 6" rigid white birch shaft 3. Absolute Isopropyl Alcohol (I use Zero Residue, 99.953% Pure Anhydrous) 4. Appropriate non-magnetic tip screwdriver(s) 5. High powered LED flashlight 6. Super clean well washed hands, dried with a lint free towel (or wipes). 7, Lint free clothing Environment: Room which is close to a dust free "Clean Room" as possible. I have a lab in my home which contains only electronic gear. It is far removed from any dust producing areas such as bedrooms, washer/dryers, etc. "Pet free" is also critical. Keep the door of such a room closed while doing this procedure. (No fans!) Procedure: 1. Most Digital packs have a Digital supplied "impact" detector. If it shows red - it's a warning that the pack has been mishandled by a drop or some other impact and may be damaged. It does NOT mean that the pack IS damaged. On the other hand, if the detector shows a clear/white indication, it does NOT mean the pack is O.K. to mount! 2. Clean the outside of the pack with wipes and alcohol. Remove all loose labels, adhesive, etc. 3. Hold the release and lift the handle as if you were going to place the pack in a drive. The protective bottom of the pack will be released. Put the bottom in a safe place (NOT the floor) while you work on the pack. 4. Place the handle in its normal locked position, and prepare to remove the plastic shield covering the bottom of the pack. Older packs will have small Philips head screws which should be completely removed. Newer packs will have "slots" which look like they are made for screwdrivers. There are eight such slots on a pack. Use a small flat head screwdriver to pry (outward direction) each slot until the plastic shield lifts. When the last slot is "released", or the last screw removed, the bottom will slip off. You will now be able to see the platter (bottom) completely. 5. Look carefully at the platter. Are there any scratches or "dings" on it? If so, you can stop here - and consider the platter not worth cleaning or testing. The platter's surface should be even and shiny (don't worry about dust - we'll deal with that later). 6. Now release the handle as if you were going to mount the pack. This will allow you to move the platter at an angle so you can see the top surface of the platter. Examine it for scratches or "dings" as you did for the other side. In the same manner, if you see scratches or dings, forget about using the pack. 7. Now hold the pack so that you can observe if it is "out-of-true". In other words, make sure that the platter is not warped in any way. This check is especially important if the impact sensor displayed "red". 8. Assuming that the platter looks good, we can now begin to clean it. Take a wipe and wrap it around the hard wood handle of the swab (it will take multiple turns of the swab to roll up the entire wipe). The rolled up wipe will just about cover the entire length of the swab. Holding the wipe so it doesn't unroll, put it into the alcohol. Remove the wipe and place it on the platter at an angle similar to a "spoke" on a bike. Holding the swab/wipe in place, spin the platter gently so that the entire surface of the platter becomes covered with the alcohol from the wipe. One pass (revolution) is usually all that is necessary. 9. Now look at the wipe. It should be clean - NO BROWN spots. If you see brown on the wipe, it means that there was probably a crash that you somehow missed on your visual inspection. 10. Assuming that the lint was clean (except for dust), we can now move on to the other surface. Remove the wipe, and place it in a safe place (we will use it later). Put a new wipe on the swab, dip it in the alcohol and do the same now for the other side of the platter. This is a bit trickier - but once you get the knack of it, it's easy. 11. Again look at the wipe. There should be NO BROWN spots. Assuming all is well, remove the wipe from the swab, and place it aside to be used later. We will now begin another visual inspection. 12. Shine a bright LED flashlight on the surface of the platter. If you hold it at the correct angle, you will be able to see any small particles which remain on either surface of the platter. If you've done the above correctly, there should be very few. Use a clean wipe (with no alcohol) to gently pick up any remaining particles. A little practice makes this easy. 13. Now place the handle of the pack in the locked position, and put the pack in a safe place. Put some alcohol on one on the wipes you used to clean the platter and use the wipe to clean the both sides of the plastic shield. Retrieve the pack and place the plastic shield on the pack. When you've lined it up correctly, all the screw holes or slots should line up perfectly (it only goes on one way!). If the pack had screws, replace them all. If it had "slots", gently snap the bottom back into place. 14. Do a final visual inspection of the platter using the LED flashlight. Don't worry if you see a speck or two of particulate on the shiny surface of the platter. The RL0x drive will blow off any remaining loose particles that happened to drift back on your platter while you were putting it back together. 15. Use the remaining wipe you used to clean the platter by pouring alcohol on it and using it to clean the pack bottom which you removed in step #3. Once you've cleaned it, put it back on the pack. 16. Now you are ready to test the pack. I usually use RT-11, and the DIR/BAD command. This will scan every block on the pack and tell you if any are bad. I typically then check to see if the pack is setup for RT, RSX, RSTS or UNIX and look at it's contents before using it. That's a totally different subject ;-) > > However, before doing so, I wanted to pass it by this list - in case > > someone has a PDP-11 based Lorlin Impact system - and doesn't have this > > software. If you need this pack (or a copy of just the Lorlin Software), > > please contact me off list. > > If the only non-standard stuff is the 2 files you mentioend (i.e. the > rest is nroaml RT11 files), would it be possivble to transder those to > some oterh medium so you can re-use this pack. Just in case somebody > needs them in the future. I may well do that - although I didn't get any "bites" for the Lorlin files. (And yes, everything else is standard RT-11 except for a few thousand test results in binary - of which I have no information as to what was being tested or the format/structure of the data). Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley, AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From dougcoward at hotmail.com Mon Mar 7 14:10:24 2011 From: dougcoward at hotmail.com (Doug Coward) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 12:10:24 -0800 Subject: Heath H-1 analog computer Message-ID: Congratulations Dave. I have only seen one up close - one time. About 15 years ago I did get ahold of most ot the manuals from the heathkit manual replacement service, all except the es-600 function generator manual. I still have not found a reason it is called the HC-1. I just call it the Heath Electronic Analog Computer Model ES-400, because es-400 is the model for the cabinet kit. I have a magazine cover about the Heath Analog Computer at http://www.cowardstereoview.com/analog/readlist.htm I've envious, Good Luck with it. --Doug Coward Poulsbo, WA The new home of the Analog Museum and History Center is http://www.cowardstereoview.com/analog From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 7 14:23:54 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 15:23:54 -0500 Subject: Heath H-1 analog computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D753EDA.1050405@neurotica.com> On 3/7/11 3:10 PM, Doug Coward wrote: > Congratulations Dave. > I have only seen one up close - one time. > About 15 years ago I did get ahold of most ot the manuals from the heathkit > manual replacement service, all except the es-600 function generator manual. > I still have not found a reason it is called the HC-1. I just call it the > Heath Electronic Analog Computer Model ES-400, because es-400 is the model for > the cabinet kit. Yes, I'm confused about that too. Here's what I just said to another listmember about that privately: You know, I've been wondering about that. Nowhere have I seen any reference to the "H-1" model name. Not on the machine, not in the docs, nowhere. The former owner referred to it as such, and some googling turns up a few pages describing this machine and calling it by that name. > I have a magazine cover about the Heath Analog Computer at > http://www.cowardstereoview.com/analog/readlist.htm Neat! Great pic! > I've envious, Good Luck with it. Thanks! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Mar 7 14:40:37 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 12:40:37 -0800 Subject: photos from the Living Computer Museum (Seattle, WA) In-Reply-To: <20110307092623.GA14580@Update.UU.SE> References: <20110307092623.GA14580@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: From: Pontus Pihlgren Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 1:26 AM On Sun, Mar 06, 2011 at 11:09:09PM -0700, Richard wrote: >> On a trip to Seattle last week, Rich Alderson was nice enough to show >> me around the Living Computer Museum's hardware collection. Here are >> captioned photos from my trip. >> > Nice! The custom flipchip storage and PDP-12 look familiar. Is this > where Robert Krtens collection went? Indeed, those came to us from Robert. > Also, I can't wait for the MASSBUSS to PC converter to become available! > Perhaps I can then help bring another PDP-10 back to life. > Rich: Is there anything about the converter that is specific to the > PDP-10 ? Or can it be used with an 11 as well? Hi, Pontus, The MDE (Massbus Disk Emulator) is in theory agnostic about what lives at the other end of the Massbus cable. The prototype board is not quite fast enough to keep up with an 11/40's 2-instruction spin loop on disk transfers (2.2 microseconds)--the status register update can get lost. Rev B uses faster processors (both the Rabbit handling data transfer functions between the MDE and the disk server, and the SX48 control register update processor) and larger dual-port RAMs, and will get past that bump easily. We are about to start system tests of Rev B, so watch this space. (Or our web site. :-) Thanks, Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Mar 7 14:55:52 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 12:55:52 -0800 Subject: analog computing / was Re: Heath H-1 analog computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2011 Mar 7, at 12:10 PM, Doug Coward wrote: > The new home of the > Analog Museum and History Center is > http://www.cowardstereoview.com/analog Ah ha, I was wondering where your site went. It was helpful when I was first working on the Tyrotek analog computer I have. I was recently contacted by the family of the founder of Tyrotek, who gave me some of the history of the company. http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/tyrotek/index.html From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 15:57:19 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 15:57:19 -0600 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs Message-ID: <4D7554BF.5090201@gmail.com> ... or mid-late '70s and early '80s CPUs, to be more specific. Can anyone furnish me with a better knowledge as to which processors of that kind of time period had hardware multiplication and division support? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_multiplier mentions the 6809, but I'm curious as to which* others had such hardware features (and when they started moving from simple shift-add routines to more complex approaches which used more silicon - or did that not happen until much later in the 80s?) * mainframe, mini, micro; I'm not picky. I'm more interested in building up a picture of how widespread hardware support was, and the various approaches that designers used. cheers Jules From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 7 15:18:21 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 21:18:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Free: Stack of Victor or Sirius floppy disks In-Reply-To: <4D720DDF.4010500@axeside.co.uk> from "Philip Belben" at Mar 5, 11 10:18:07 am Message-ID: > Interesting. The Sirius was famous in its day for the "wining tones" of > the variable speed disk drive, which the Commodore didn't have (in a As I mentioned in a later message, the Commodore drives were fixed spindle speed, variable data rate, the Sirius ones were fixed data rate, varaible sipindle speed. Comes to muc hthe same thing in the end > later post someone says that the Commodore drives changed the data rate > instead), so I'm surprised they're so similar. The motor cotnrol circuitry is very different, of course. I was taling about the GCR encoder/decoder as being the part that is very similar. I assum,e you have schematics of both. The other thing about the Sirius which is odd if you don't realise the originalsm but obvious wehn you do is that it is _full_ of 6522 VIA chips (in a 8088 system). There are 3 on the CPU board. IIRC one for system cotnrol buncutions like brightness, contrast, etc, one for the printer port (which is actually a GPIB port on the wrong connector and with an odd pinput! [1]) and one for the user port (actually, I think one of the timers in that one also generates the cound system clock). And anotehr 3 6522s on the disk cotnrolelr board, one for the data ports, one for the motor control, and one for various other control functions. [1] It's a 36 pin Microribbon connaotr, and it nomiallu, at least, a Centronics port with a standard pinout. It's actually driven by 75160 and 75161 chips (I think it's those), -- GPIB buffers. The data lines end up on 2-9 of the connectector (Centronics data lines), DAV is on pin 1 (stb/),. and so on. With the standard software it's a Centronics port, but it would only take a little software and the right cable to link GPIB devices here. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 7 15:22:22 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 21:22:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: I Never Knew That The VT100 Was A Computer :-) In-Reply-To: <007e01cbdc48$d9d370e0$8d7a52a0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Mar 6, 11 09:52:53 pm Message-ID: > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270716450383&ssPageName > =ADME:B:SS:GB:1123 >From what I can see, that;' a dust cover, and it would fit various computers that were in the same case as the VT100 (the VT103 and the VT180 spring to mind. Anyway, there's an 8080 in the VT100, so it's a dedciated computer, I guess :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 7 15:32:20 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 21:32:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: I Never Knew That The VT100 Was A Computer :-) In-Reply-To: <4D741856.3090601@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Mar 6, 11 03:27:18 pm Message-ID: > > Well, it has an 8080 microprocessor, ROM, RAM, input (keyboard and > serial), and output (video display and serial). What more do you want? :-) User programability? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 7 15:34:58 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 21:34:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: I Never Knew That The VT100 Was A Computer :-) In-Reply-To: from "Dan Gahlinger" at Mar 6, 11 07:32:03 pm Message-ID: > > > What I like even more is thatit's nothing more than a plain generic dust co= > ver - retail cost about $2and notice the generic product tag with the "hand= > written" note saying "DEC VT100". I'd assumed it was a dust cover shaped to fit fairly closely on a VT100 terminal. Such things (for all sorts of desktop computers, terminals, printers, etc) were not uncommon at ome time, but are not easy to get now. If it is that, I can understand why somebody might want it in their collection. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 7 15:31:32 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 21:31:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Lorlin Impact Test System Disk... In-Reply-To: <20110306220149.GD1992@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Mar 6, 11 04:01:49 pm Message-ID: > > On Sunday (03/06/2011 at 06:06PM +0000), Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > I recently picked up a RL02 pack from a recycler. After doing my usual > > > tear-down and clean process, I tested the pack on my 11/34C. It was 100% > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > What do you do? I know the stanadard procedure for RK05 packs, but what > > do you dismantle, and how do you clean, the RL's? Actually, I was asking about cleaning the RL _packs_, but doing the drives is an interesting subject too. > > What a great topic... as I have been doing this exact effort for the > past several weeks. I have completely cleaned and brought back online > two RL02 and a third is just entering the process. > > Before I ever try to spin one up, I take the front panel off and remove > the black pre-filter. It is guaranteed to be disintegrating and turning > into a fine black powder. Exactly the kind of thing you don't want > sucked into the drive. Ineeed. That crumbing foam is a problem in a lot of old elecrtronics. The RL is better than some, the pre-filter is at the front end of those 'heat exchanger' tubes, so the decaying foam isn't plaseted straight onto the absolute filters as it is in an RK05 or RK07. It still helps to remvoe it > > I vacuum out entire front area behind the front panel and the backside > of the panel itself. > > I then take off the top covers and vacuum out the well where the pack > sits and wipe the entire area down with a damp cloth. Clean out ALL I think I would use prapn-2-ol to dampen the cloth for this. > the junk... cob webs, hairs, there will surely be a lot of junk in there. > > Then I clean out the rear near the fan. The fan blades will be loaded > up with dust and I take off the grill and wipe those down with a Swiffer > duster cloth as well as vacuum the whole fan assembly. Most of the time when I'm restorign soemthing, not just RLs, I remvoe the fan unit completely . Most of the time these fans can be taken apart (fixings are often under the lable), there are many varients which I won';t go into here (but will if somebody asks me), but basically you get to the end of th espidnel, remvoe a circlip and washers, and slide the rotor out. The housing and blades are then a lot easier to clean. and you can put a drop of oil on the bearings. > > Then there is the issue of the "absolute filter" which is the roughly > 3" x 9" HEPA-like filter accessible from the front. I was fortunate > to have one of these that was nearly new but others have been polluted > by the disintegrating black foam pre-filter. I am currently looking at > one that is completely black on the intake side-- totally loaded up with > the black carbon-like dust that the pre-filter turns into. Not cool. > > I was just about to post to the list asking if there is a source for these > absolute filters still (which I doubt) or if anyone has a process for I am tols that a farily common car air filter element can be modified to fit. I do know that some older drives (RK01s?) used a car air filter element as standard... Anyway, the problem is that I can't rememebr which car is the one to ask for. And at least over here, you go and buy a filter for a particular car, the shops look at oyu like you're from amrs if you ask for one of particular dimensions. Anyone got any ideas? [...] > At this point, I am brave enough to try to spin the drive up. I will > take a known good not not precious pack and put it in the drive. You > of course have to have a controller connected to the drive and powered > on so that the drive gets clock over the interface. At this point you > should have the fault light out and the load light lit. You can press > load and hear the drive spin up. Hopefully. I have one drive that will > spin up, attempt to load the heads and then immediately fault. After > several experiments trying to get this drive to load the heads so that I > could do some of the alignment procedures, I found that it was actually > crashing the head into the media and I wrecked that pack. That drive is Do you mean it was headcrashing in the normal sense (wich would indicate possibly faulty heads) or that the head was hitting the edge of the disk, or what? [...] -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 7 15:40:28 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 21:40:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: I Never Knew That The VT100 Was A Computer :-) In-Reply-To: <4D7444C5.3020506@verizon.net> from "allison" at Mar 6, 11 09:36:53 pm Message-ID: > Vt100 was the first DEC terminal that wasn't a state machine or some random Actually, thinking about it some more, I disgree with that. The GT40 pre-dates the VT100, and I am sure the PDP11/05 is a processor... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 7 15:39:07 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 21:39:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: I Never Knew That The VT100 Was A Computer :-) In-Reply-To: <4D7444C5.3020506@verizon.net> from "allison" at Mar 6, 11 09:36:53 pm Message-ID: > Vt100 was the first DEC terminal that wasn't a state machine or some random The distinmction between a 'state machine' and a 'processor' is somwhat blurred, IMHO. Personally, I consider the VT50-series controller to be a simple processor, I guess you call it a state machine. I could even argue that the distinctiuon can come down to how it was designed, a 'state machine' is desiged from a state transition diagram, a 'procesosr' runs a program which is descibed by a listing. The VT50=-series was certainly the latter (there's a source listing of the fimrware in one of the microfiches). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 7 15:46:02 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 21:46:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: "300 Baud" magazine shuts down In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Mar 7, 11 08:04:17 am Message-ID: > > At 9:12 AM -0500 3/7/11, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > >Eric writes: > >> Issue #3 is unfortunately the final issue. > >> You can now get PDF files of issues 1 through 3 from their web site: > >> http://www.300baudmagazine.com/ > > > >And I never knew it existed until now :-(. > > Now I don't feel so bad! :-) I didn't know they existed until now either. Nor did I. Hiwever, being infvolved (loosely) wiht a couple of special-interest publications, I know how hard it is to get any sort of articles/input for such things. I am not suprised htey had difficulties. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 7 16:01:21 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 22:01:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RL02 Pack tear-down and clean (was: Lorlin Impact Test System Disk...) In-Reply-To: <201103071115.59795.lbickley@bickleywest.com> from "Lyle Bickley" at Mar 7, 11 11:15:59 am Message-ID: > > On Sunday 06 March 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > I recently picked up a RL02 pack from a recycler. After doing my usual > > > tear-down and clean process, I tested the pack on my 11/34C. It was 100% > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > What do you do? I know the standard procedure for RK05 packs, but what > > do you dismantle, and how do you clean, the RLs? > > I have two RL02's on my 11/34C and one on my 11/83. I have a spare > RL02 which I recently rebuilt (including new heads), and a working > spare RL01. > > Given that I use RL02 packs regularly - especially on my 11/34C, I > felt it critical that I carefully clean and verify packs as much as > possible before mounting them in a RL0x drive. > > Let me say upfront that I've successfully used this procedure on the > 32+ packs that I have in stock - which are all 100% - no bad blocks > (some using substitute records, of course). I have six or seven packs > in storage that did not pass initial "inspection", which I have never > mounted in an RL02 for testing. I have not had one crash using a pack > that passed this procedure. > > Tear-down / Clean Procedure > --------------------------- > > Supplies/Tools needed: > > 1. Dust/Lint free wipes (such as KimWipes S-200) > 2. Single ended swabs - 6" rigid white birch shaft > 3. Absolute Isopropyl Alcohol (I use Zero Residue, > 99.953% Pure Anhydrous) > 4. Appropriate non-magnetic tip screwdriver(s) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Is that important? The RL pack huib is locked ot the drive spindle by a farily powerful ring magnet, and that's closer to the platter surface than the screws you are removing. While I wouldn't use those iufernal magnetised tools that are suppsoed to help you get screes into tight corners (and end up being a pain i nthe rear), I would have thought normal stell screwdrivers would de OK. > 5. High powered LED flashlight > 6. Super clean well washed hands, dried with a lint > free towel (or wipes). > 7, Lint free clothing Hmmmm..... > > Environment: > > Room which is close to a dust free "Clean Room" as possible. > I have a lab in my home which contains only electronic gear. > It is far removed from any dust producing areas such as bedrooms, > washer/dryers, etc. "Pet free" is also critical. Keep the door ^^^^^^^^ I think that's th eproblem... No I am not talking bout Commodore machines, but have you ever tried to keep a pair of cats out of a machine room? > of such a room closed while doing this procedure. (No fans!) > > Procedure: > > 1. Most Digital packs have a Digital supplied "impact" detector. If My experieicne i that these shaockwatch detecotrs are much more ocmmon on RL02 packs than onRL01 packs. > it shows red - it's a warning that the pack has been mishandled by > a drop or some other impact and may be damaged. It does NOT mean > that the pack IS damaged. On the other hand, if the detector shows > a clear/white indication, it does NOT mean the pack is O.K. to > mount! So does it actually tell you anyhting :-) > > 2. Clean the outside of the pack with wipes and alcohol. Remove > all loose labels, adhesive, etc. > > 3. Hold the release and lift the handle as if you were going to > place the pack in a drive. The protective bottom of the pack will > be released. Put the bottom in a safe place (NOT the floor) while > you work on the pack. I would guessp uting it upside-down is a good idea, so that any dust that lands on it doens't end up inside. > > 4. Place the handle in its normal locked position, and prepare to > remove the plastic shield covering the bottom of the pack. Older > packs will have small Philips head screws which should be completely > removed. Newer packs will have "slots" which look like they > are made for screwdrivers. There are eight such slots on a pack. > Use a small flat head screwdriver to pry (outward direction) each > slot until the plastic shield lifts. When the last slot is "released", > or the last screw removed, the bottom will slip off. You will now be > able to see the platter (bottom) completely. > > 5. Look carefully at the platter. Are there any scratches or "dings" > on it? If so, you can stop here - and consider the platter not worth > cleaning or testing. The platter's surface should be even and shiny > (don't worry about dust - we'll deal with that later). > > 6. Now release the handle as if you were going to mount the pack. This > will allow you to move the platter at an angle so you can see the top > surface of the platter. Examine it for scratches or "dings" as you > did for the other side. In the same manner, if you see scratches or > dings, forget about using the pack. Have you ever tried to dismantle the handle assembly and separae the platter/hub from the top cover? Obviously you musn't separate the hub from the paltter (you would oose the centring _and_ the rleative positions of the sector notces and the srevo bursts). It might be interestign to investgate this on one of your scrap packs. If it's possible, it might make cleaning and inspecting the upper surface of the platter easier.. > > 7. Now hold the pack so that you can observe if it is "out-of-true". > In other words, make sure that the platter is not warped in any way. > This check is especially important if the impact sensor displayed "red". > > 8. Assuming that the platter looks good, we can now begin to clean it. > Take a wipe and wrap it around the hard wood handle of the swab (it will > take multiple turns of the swab to roll up the entire wipe). The rolled > up wipe will just about cover the entire length of the swab. > > Holding the wipe so it doesn't unroll, put it into the alcohol. Remove > the wipe and place it on the platter at an angle similar to a "spoke" > on a bike. Holding the swab/wipe in place, spin the platter gently > so that the entire surface of the platter becomes covered with the > alcohol from the wipe. One pass (revolution) is usually all that is > necessary. > > 9. Now look at the wipe. It should be clean - NO BROWN spots. If you > see brown on the wipe, it means that there was probably a crash that > you somehow missed on your visual inspection. > > 10. Assuming that the lint was clean (except for dust), we can now > move on to the other surface. Remove the wipe, and place it in a safe > place (we will use it later). Put a new wipe on the swab, dip it in > the alcohol and do the same now for the other side of the platter. This > is a bit trickier - but once you get the knack of it, it's easy. > > 11. Again look at the wipe. There should be NO BROWN spots. Assuming > all is well, remove the wipe from the swab, and place it aside to be > used later. We will now begin another visual inspection. > > 12. Shine a bright LED flashlight on the surface of the platter. If you > hold it at the correct angle, you will be able to see any small particles > which remain on either surface of the platter. If you've done the above > correctly, there should be very few. Use a clean wipe (with no alcohol) > to gently pick up any remaining particles. A little practice makes this > easy. > > 13. Now place the handle of the pack in the locked position, and put > the pack in a safe place. Put some alcohol on one on the wipes you used > to clean the platter and use the wipe to clean the both sides of the > plastic shield. Retrieve the pack and place the plastic shield on the > pack. When you've lined it up correctly, all the screw holes > or slots should line up perfectly (it only goes on one way!). If the > pack had screws, replace them all. If it had "slots", gently snap the I assume the nromal tricks of diagonal tightening (to put the cover doen even;y) and turnign the screws counerclockwise (so as nto to strip the threeads nnd also not to make more particles when they cut new threads) apply here. > bottom back into place. > > 14. Do a final visual inspection of the platter using the LED flashlight. > Don't worry if you see a speck or two of particulate on the shiny surface > of the platter. The RL0x drive will blow off any remaining loose particles > that happened to drift back on your platter while you were putting it > back together. > > 15. Use the remaining wipe you used to clean the platter by pouring > alcohol on it and using it to clean the pack bottom which you removed > in step #3. Once you've cleaned it, put it back on the pack. > > 16. Now you are ready to test the pack. I usually use RT-11, and the > DIR/BAD command. This will scan every block on the pack and tell you > if any are bad. I typically then check to see if the pack is setup > for RT, RSX, RSTS or UNIX and look at it's contents before using it. > That's a totally different subject ;-) > > > > However, before doing so, I wanted to pass it by this list - in case > > > someone has a PDP-11 based Lorlin Impact system - and doesn't have this > > > software. If you need this pack (or a copy of just the Lorlin Software), > > > please contact me off list. > > > > If the only non-standard stuff is the 2 files you mentioend (i.e. the > > rest is nroaml RT11 files), would it be possivble to transder those to > > some oterh medium so you can re-use this pack. Just in case somebody > > needs them in the future. > > I may well do that - although I didn't get any "bites" for the Lorlin files. > (And yes, everything else is standard RT-11 except for a few thousand test > results in binary - of which I have no information as to what was being tested > or the format/structure of the data). I don;t think those data files are worth keepoing. But I don't like erasing control programs as many times I've been in the reverse position (I've obtained some odd bit of hardware and can't get the software for it). I would try to save them on an RX02 or something. -tony From legalize at xmission.com Mon Mar 7 16:11:43 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 15:11:43 -0700 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: <4D7554BF.5090201@gmail.com> References: <4D7554BF.5090201@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <4D7554BF.5090201 at gmail.com>, Jules Richardson writes: > ... or mid-late '70s and early '80s CPUs, to be more specific. Can anyone > furnish me with a better knowledge as to which processors of that kind of time > period had hardware multiplication and division support? Integer or floating-point? x86 had hardware floating-point divide/multiply fairly early with the 80x87 FPU chips (8087, 80287, 80387, 80487, then 486DX2 had the FPU on the CPU, IIRC). The 68K line of processors also had companion FPU chips until they got an FPU implemented on-chip. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 7 16:20:04 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 22:20:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: <4D7554BF.5090201@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Mar 7, 11 03:57:19 pm Message-ID: > > > ... or mid-late '70s and early '80s CPUs, to be more specific. Can anyone > furnish me with a better knowledge as to which processors of that kind of time > period had hardware multiplication and division support? > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_multiplier mentions the 6809, but I'm > curious as to which* others had such hardware features (and when they started > moving from simple shift-add routines to more complex approaches which used > more silicon - or did that not happen until much later in the 80s?) > > * mainframe, mini, micro; I'm not picky. I'm more interested in building up a > picture of how widespread hardware support was, and the various approaches > that designers used. What do you mean by 'hardware' multiply and divide? A number of machines, I suspect the 6809 is amongst them, had no particualrl hardware for multiply or divide, but they did have multiply and maybe divide instrucitons in the instruction setc. These instrucitons were implemented by microcode using the normal registers and ALU. Does that count? IIRC, the PDP11 got hardware multiply and divide with the 11/45 in 1972. It was simple shift+add IIRC. The floating point boards for that machine implemented multiply and divide suing a few speedup tricks (like subtracinging, skipping paset a block of 1s in the multiply and then edding, so that, for example, *15 became a *-1 + *16 if you see what I mean). And IIRC, there wa sno multiply-specific hardare (or at least not much) on the 11/45 CPU. Itwas mostly done in microcode. Not all PDP11s had said instrucitons after that, though. The EAE Extended Artihmetic Element) for the PDP11 (a Unibus card that would wotk in any Unibus machine) and a similar add-on for the PDP8/e CPU were essnetially hardware multiply/divide boards. The Unibus one didn't add to the processor instruction set, rather it had its own registers (accessed like I./O ports) that you loaded the numbers into and read the rsult from. The PERQ1 (4K WCS) -- 1979-- had no multiply/divide supprot, the PERQ1a -- 9180 -- (and thus all later classic PERQs) had the MulStep/DivStep hardware which let you calcu;ate one bit of the product or quotient in one microcycle (using restoring division). However the stnadard microcode for all classic PERQs (loaded from disk at boot-up) had multiply and divide _machine_ code instructions. -tony From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Mar 7 16:40:03 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 17:40:03 -0500 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D755EC3.90207@verizon.net> You forgot one. Northstar* S100 system had an optional FPB it did BCD math (ADD, SUB, MUL, DIV) for two operand of 2 to 14 BCD digits. It was much faster than could be done with software in the Z80. EAE was PDP-8 The PDP11 series had multiple implementations including the FPP (2901 based) and the FIS for the 11/23cpu (F11). The 11/44 had a FPU that used a carload of 2901s. There were many other I'm sure I'm passing over. Allison On 03/07/2011 05:20 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> ... or mid-late '70s and early '80s CPUs, to be more specific. Can anyone >> furnish me with a better knowledge as to which processors of that kind of time >> period had hardware multiplication and division support? >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_multiplier mentions the 6809, but I'm >> curious as to which* others had such hardware features (and when they started >> moving from simple shift-add routines to more complex approaches which used >> more silicon - or did that not happen until much later in the 80s?) >> >> * mainframe, mini, micro; I'm not picky. I'm more interested in building up a >> picture of how widespread hardware support was, and the various approaches >> that designers used. > What do you mean by 'hardware' multiply and divide? A number of machines, > I suspect the 6809 is amongst them, had no particualrl hardware for > multiply or divide, but they did have multiply and maybe divide > instrucitons in the instruction setc. These instrucitons were implemented > by microcode using the normal registers and ALU. Does that count? > > IIRC, the PDP11 got hardware multiply and divide with the 11/45 in 1972. > It was simple shift+add IIRC. The floating point boards for that machine > implemented multiply and divide suing a few speedup tricks (like > subtracinging, skipping paset a block of 1s in the multiply and then > edding, so that, for example, *15 became a *-1 + *16 if you see what I mean). > > And IIRC, there wa sno multiply-specific hardare (or at least not much) > on the 11/45 CPU. Itwas mostly done in microcode. > > Not all PDP11s had said instrucitons after that, though. > > The EAE Extended Artihmetic Element) for the PDP11 (a Unibus card that > would wotk in any Unibus machine) and a similar add-on for the PDP8/e CPU > were essnetially hardware multiply/divide boards. The Unibus one didn't > add to the processor instruction set, rather it had its own registers > (accessed like I./O ports) that you loaded the numbers into and read the > rsult from. > > The PERQ1 (4K WCS) -- 1979-- had no multiply/divide supprot, the PERQ1a -- > 9180 -- (and thus all later classic PERQs) had the MulStep/DivStep > hardware which let you calcu;ate one bit of the product or quotient in one > microcycle (using restoring division). However the stnadard microcode > for all classic PERQs (loaded from disk at boot-up) had multiply and > divide _machine_ code instructions. > > -tony > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 7 16:42:17 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 14:42:17 -0800 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: References: <4D7554BF.5090201@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Mar 7, 11 03:57:19 pm, Message-ID: <4D74EEC9.291.148763E@cclist.sydex.com> Does the Cray=1's Floating Reciprocal Approximation instruction count as a divide? --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 16:45:23 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 17:45:23 -0500 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: <4D755EC3.90207@verizon.net> References: <4D755EC3.90207@verizon.net> Message-ID: > There were many other I'm sure I'm passing over. I bet it would be hard to find a late 70s/early 80s mini or mainframe that did not have some sort of multiply/divide support or option. -- Will From tosteve at yahoo.com Mon Mar 7 16:52:46 2011 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 14:52:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pick-up: Cromemco System 3 - So Cal Message-ID: <68092.38833.qm@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Local folk, Item: Cromemco System 3 Quantity: 1 AKA: Giant monster. Please come and take it away. Orange County, CA 92656 Thanks- Steve. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 7 16:57:06 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 14:57:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: I Never Knew That The VT100 Was A Computer :-) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110307145621.D28046@shell.lmi.net> > > Well, it has an 8080 microprocessor, ROM, RAM, input (keyboard and > > serial), and output (video display and serial). What more do you want? :-) On Mon, 7 Mar 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > User programability? Howzbout putting in ZIF socket(s) for the ROM(s)? From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 7 17:02:57 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 15:02:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: I Never Knew That The VT100 Was A Computer :-) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110307145733.Q28046@shell.lmi.net> > > What I like even more is thatit's nothing more than a plain generic dust co= > > ver - retail cost about $2and notice the generic product tag with the "hand= > > written" note saying "DEC VT100". On Mon, 7 Mar 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > I'd assumed it was a dust cover shaped to fit fairly closely on a VT100 > terminal. Such things (for all sorts of desktop computers, terminals, > printers, etc) were not uncommon at ome time, but are not easy to get now. > If it is that, I can understand why somebody might want it in their > collection. The VT100/VT125?? that I gave away last year had one made by DEC, and a DEC tilt/swivel base. Now I feel bad about losing the DEC VT100 keyboard dust cover. It had some damage; I had to retrieve it after the college dumpstered MY collection (in spite of specific paperwork from the dean authorizing it!) I'd like to drop it on a college administrator's head. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 7 17:27:46 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 15:27:46 -0800 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: <4D74EEC9.291.148763E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D7554BF.5090201@gmail.com>, , <4D74EEC9.291.148763E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D74F972.18273.17219F8@cclist.sydex.com> There were math co-processor boards (AM9511, AM9512, for example) for S100 systems. ISTR that there was even a TRW bipolar (16x16? Huge chip that ran hot as a pistol) for the S100 bus. The Moto 6809 had an 8x8 multiplier. The TI TMS9900 had both multiply and divide instructions. Going further afield, the DG MicroNova had multiply and divide (but not the Fairchild 9440). All mainframes of the time that I'm aware of had floating-point multiply. Many had floating-point divide (or a mechanism for getting there). Many lacked integer multiply and divide. --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 17:49:20 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 17:49:20 -0600 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D756F00.6000706@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: > What do you mean by 'hardware' multiply and divide? A number of machines, > I suspect the 6809 is amongst them, had no particualrl hardware for > multiply or divide, but they did have multiply and maybe divide > instrucitons in the instruction setc. These instrucitons were implemented > by microcode using the normal registers and ALU. Does that count? Yes, anything that includes a dedicated multiply or divide instruction as part of the instruction set; I suspect a lot of the early implementations fall into the "simple shift-add" that I mentioned due to the lack/cost of silicon. cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 17:52:49 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 17:52:49 -0600 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: References: <4D7554BF.5090201@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4D756FD1.7070908@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > In article <4D7554BF.5090201 at gmail.com>, > Jules Richardson writes: > >> ... or mid-late '70s and early '80s CPUs, to be more specific. Can anyone >> furnish me with a better knowledge as to which processors of that kind of time >> period had hardware multiplication and division support? > > Integer or floating-point? Ahh, integer only - I'm not too worried about FP operations. > x86 had hardware floating-point divide/multiply fairly early with the > 80x87 FPU chips (8087, 80287, 80387, 80487, then 486DX2 had the FPU on > the CPU, IIRC). True. I think the 486DX (minus the 2) had the FP ops built in (did the 386DX??) If I remember right a few manufacturers made math chips for the x86 line. > The 68K line of processors also had companion FPU chips until they got > an FPU implemented on-chip. I always forget how darn *old* the humble 68k is :-) cheers Jules From legalize at xmission.com Mon Mar 7 17:47:53 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 16:47:53 -0700 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: <4D74F972.18273.17219F8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D7554BF.5090201@gmail.com>, , <4D74EEC9.291.148763E@cclist.sydex.com> <4D74F972.18273.17219F8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4D74F972.18273.17219F8 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > There were math co-processor boards (AM9511, AM9512, for example) for > S100 systems. ISTR that there was even a TRW bipolar (16x16? Huge > chip that ran hot as a pistol) for the S100 bus. TRW and Weitek both made hardware multiplier chips for digital signal processing applications. Exactly when the chips were introduced, I don't know, but they were certainly present in the mid 80s. > All mainframes of the time that I'm aware of had floating-point > multiply. Many had floating-point divide (or a mechanism for getting > there). Many lacked integer multiply and divide. The IBM 701 had hardware multiply. I'm not sure about divide. This was 1953. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Mar 7 17:49:47 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 16:49:47 -0700 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: <4D756F00.6000706@gmail.com> References: <4D756F00.6000706@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <4D756F00.6000706 at gmail.com>, Jules Richardson writes: > Yes, anything that includes a dedicated multiply or divide instruction as > part of the instruction set; I suspect a lot of the early implementations > fall into the "simple shift-add" that I mentioned due to the lack/cost of > silicon. (BTW, line lengths of about 75 or so characters are *much* more friendly to quoting than line lenghts of *exactly* 80 characters.) I don't think the multiply implementation in the IBM 701 was shift/add microcode variety. That wouldn't have been very performant for its intended purpose (scientific computing). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 18:00:42 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 18:00:42 -0600 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: <4D74F972.18273.17219F8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D7554BF.5090201@gmail.com>, , <4D74EEC9.291.148763E@cclist.sydex.com> <4D74F972.18273.17219F8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D7571AA.7090106@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > There were math co-processor boards (AM9511, AM9512, for example) for > S100 systems. ISTR that there was even a TRW bipolar (16x16? Huge > chip that ran hot as a pistol) for the S100 bus. I suppose if it appears transparent to the user (machine executes instruction xx, doesn't know what to do with it, and throws it at the copro) then it's a valid solution. I think I'm more interested in systems that came with support as standard rather than as an optional cost extra, though. > The Moto 6809 had an 8x8 multiplier. Yes, that seems to be the 'famous' one that gets mentioned everywhere. It seems it was of the shift-add variety. Anyone recall if it would work with signed integers? (I'm just trying to work out how the math works for signed multiplies at the moment) > The TI TMS9900 had both multiply and divide instructions. Ahh, that's a useful one to know. > All mainframes of the time that I'm aware of had floating-point > multiply. Many had floating-point divide (or a mechanism for getting > there). Many lacked integer multiply and divide. Any particular reason that they'd support FP ops but not do the same for integers? Does that imply that it was typically done by an (optional?) added FP 'math' unit rather than being a core part of the CPU? cheers Jules From legalize at xmission.com Mon Mar 7 18:03:35 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 17:03:35 -0700 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: <4D7571AA.7090106@gmail.com> References: <4D7554BF.5090201@gmail.com>, , <4D74EEC9.291.148763E@cclist.sydex.com> <4D74F972.18273.17219F8@cclist.sydex.com> <4D7571AA.7090106@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <4D7571AA.7090106 at gmail.com>, Jules Richardson writes: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > The Moto 6809 had an 8x8 multiplier. > > Yes, that seems to be the 'famous' one that gets mentioned everywhere. It > seems it was of the shift-add variety. Anyone recall if it would work with > signed integers? (I'm just trying to work out how the math works for signed > multiplies at the moment) I can check my 6809 reference when I get home. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 18:08:47 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 18:08:47 -0600 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: References: <4D756F00.6000706@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4D75738F.1000504@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > In article <4D756F00.6000706 at gmail.com>, > Jules Richardson writes: > >> Yes, anything that includes a dedicated multiply or divide instruction as >> part of the instruction set; I suspect a lot of the early implementations >> fall into the "simple shift-add" that I mentioned due to the lack/cost of >> silicon. > > (BTW, line lengths of about 75 or so characters are *much* more > friendly to quoting than line lenghts of *exactly* 80 characters.) Hmm, good point. I had it set to 78 (TB's default), now changed to 75 though :) > I don't think the multiply implementation in the IBM 701 was shift/add > microcode variety. That wouldn't have been very performant for its > intended purpose (scientific computing). I'll have to have a look online and see if I can find any details. I see that Booth's algorithm was 1951 - much earlier than I expected and a year before the 701. I'm not sure when Wallace trees showed up... cheers Jules From legalize at xmission.com Mon Mar 7 18:08:54 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 17:08:54 -0700 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: <4D75738F.1000504@gmail.com> References: <4D756F00.6000706@gmail.com> <4D75738F.1000504@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <4D75738F.1000504 at gmail.com>, Jules Richardson writes: > > I don't think the multiply implementation in the IBM 701 was shift/add > > microcode variety. That wouldn't have been very performant for its > > intended purpose (scientific computing). > > I'll have to have a look online and see if I can find any details. I see > that Booth's algorithm was 1951 - much earlier than I expected and a year > before the 701. I'm not sure when Wallace trees showed up... There's quite a bit of documentation on the 7090 on bitsavers; not sure about the earlier models, though. For the 701 it could be that shift/add was the best they had at the time. By the time we hit the 7090 I suspect they were doing better things, but I'm by no means any sort of expert on IBM stuff. I only recently learned about the 7090. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Mar 7 18:44:31 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 16:44:31 -0800 Subject: Heath H-1 analog computer In-Reply-To: <4D73FF3E.7020904@neurotica.com> References: <4D73FF3E.7020904@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Hi Dave I'm glad you didn't drive all that way for an EC-1. You'll most likely want to aquire a couple other pieces. A XY plotter and a XY storage scope. I have a HP 7044 to plot with and a Nicolet oscilloscope 2090 w/ 206 front end. These come in real handy. > Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 16:40:14 -0500 > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > To: > Subject: Heath H-1 analog computer > > > Hey folks! I'm giggling like a little girl here, so I just wanted to > share. :) Recently I was lucky enough to acquire a Heath H-1 analog > computer from a very cool guy named Norman in Maine. My lady and I > drove up there to pick it up. It's...just plain awesome. > > I've just finished putting together a page about it here, with pictures: > > http://www.neurotica.com/wiki/Heath_H-1_Analog_Computer > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL From spc at conman.org Mon Mar 7 18:51:27 2011 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 19:51:27 -0500 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: <4D7571AA.7090106@gmail.com> References: <4D74EEC9.291.148763E@cclist.sydex.com> <4D74F972.18273.17219F8@cclist.sydex.com> <4D7571AA.7090106@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20110308005127.GA17803@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Jules Richardson once stated: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >There were math co-processor boards (AM9511, AM9512, for example) for > >S100 systems. ISTR that there was even a TRW bipolar (16x16? Huge > >chip that ran hot as a pistol) for the S100 bus. > > I suppose if it appears transparent to the user (machine executes > instruction xx, doesn't know what to do with it, and throws it at the > copro) then it's a valid solution. I think I'm more interested in systems > that came with support as standard rather than as an optional cost extra, > though. > > >The Moto 6809 had an 8x8 multiplier. > > Yes, that seems to be the 'famous' one that gets mentioned everywhere. It > seems it was of the shift-add variety. Anyone recall if it would work with > signed integers? (I'm just trying to work out how the math works for signed > multiplies at the moment) I'm looking at _TRS-80 Color Computer Assembly Language Programming_ by William Barden, Jr., and he states: Although it's possible to do [signed multiply] with special multiplies ... the easiest way is to first convert the operands to absolute values, do the multiply ... and then change back the result to the proper sign. (Chater 17, pg 170) For multiplication, +X * +Y = +Z -X * +Y = -Z +X * -Y = -Z -X * -Y = +Z Looks like the sign of the result is the exclusive or of the sign bits (but beware of overflow) -spc From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Mar 7 18:57:05 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 16:57:05 -0800 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: References: <4D756F00.6000706@gmail.com>, <4D75738F.1000504@gmail.com>, Message-ID: Hi The Nicolet 1080 that was designed in 1969-1970 did 20X20 mulitply with 40 bit result. It also did divide of a 40 bit by a 20 bit to get 20 bit and remainder. It did these as steps from a multiply or divide single instruction. Each step was 1 usec, taking 20 usec to complete each operation. This takes one complete board full of DTL and TTL. As an additional function, it did bit reversal for addressing while doing FFT's ( Its main claim to fame ). Dwight From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 7 19:20:47 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 17:20:47 -0800 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: <4D7571AA.7090106@gmail.com> References: <4D7554BF.5090201@gmail.com>, <4D74F972.18273.17219F8@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D7571AA.7090106@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4D7513EF.8862.1D992BD@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Mar 2011 at 18:00, Jules Richardson wrote: > Any particular reason that they'd support FP ops but not do the same > for integers? Does that imply that it was typically done by an > (optional?) added FP 'math' unit rather than being a core part of the > CPU? To the contrary, on the big iron, floating-point is central to the CPU design. Multiplies were usually pipelined (and sometimes duplexed) and took only a couple of cycles max. If you needed an integer multiply, you did it with the FP unit and recovered the unnormalized lower part of the double-precison product. The Cray reciprocal approximation (also found on the Intel 860) is used not because it's faster, than a real divide instruction, but mostly because the divide sequence can be broken down into a series of short instructions which then can be interleaved with the other work the processor is doing. An instruction that has a long execution time, can hold up issue of other unrelated instructions. The CDC 6600, if I recall correctly, did its divide by forming a table of trial divisors 3 quotient bits at a time. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Mar 7 19:26:04 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 17:26:04 -0800 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: <4D75738F.1000504@gmail.com> References: <4D756F00.6000706@gmail.com> <4D75738F.1000504@gmail.com> Message-ID: <62b3e34083d645adb67fc0e7574d5978@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Mar 7, at 4:08 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Richard wrote: >> I don't think the multiply implementation in the IBM 701 was shift/add >> microcode variety. That wouldn't have been very performant for its >> intended purpose (scientific computing). > > I'll have to have a look online and see if I can find any details. I > see that Booth's algorithm was 1951 - much earlier than I expected and > a year before the 701. I'm not sure when Wallace trees showed up... I know you mentioned 70s/80s in your initial message, but if you are considering early stuff: - The ENIAC did hardware multiple/divide/square root. Multiply was done using a partial-products scheme. - Some IBM card/unit-record/accounting machines did electronic multiply/divide in the 1940s/50s. I sometimes see mention of an IBM researcher developing an electronic multiplier in the late-30s or very early-40s but I don't have a ref. - The Draft Report on the EDVAC (1945) described or included hardware multiply and divide. I don't know whether it was implemented on the EDVAC or not. - Whirlwind had hardware multiply (not sure about divide), late-40s. I wonder if multiply/divide were the incentive for Wilkes' development of microcode, as most other instructions of the time would not be very complex. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Mar 7 20:38:40 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 18:38:40 -0800 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: <62b3e34083d645adb67fc0e7574d5978@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4D756F00.6000706@gmail.com>, <4D75738F.1000504@gmail.com>, <62b3e34083d645adb67fc0e7574d5978@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: Hi The NC4000 had multiply/divide/squareroot steps The divide was non-restoring and required one extra step to get the last bit right. The NC4000 had an efficient step repeat instruction that made these operation only two instructions( except the divide restore was 3 if needed ). These were integer instructions. The NC4000 came out about the same time as the 386 as I recall and was a uProcessor. It was programmed in Forth as its native instructions and was often used as an excelerator board in PCs. Later it was bought by Rockwell and sold as the RTX2000. These were used in many space applications because it was static CMOS and could be easily rad hardened. Dwight From chrise at pobox.com Mon Mar 7 20:51:40 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 20:51:40 -0600 Subject: RL02 drive tuneup was Re: Lorlin Impact Test System Disk... In-Reply-To: References: <20110306220149.GD1992@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20110308025140.GG2281@n0jcf.net> On Monday (03/07/2011 at 09:31PM +0000), Tony Duell wrote: > > > What do you do? I know the stanadard procedure for RK05 packs, but what > > > do you dismantle, and how do you clean, the RL's? > > Actually, I was asking about cleaning the RL _packs_, but doing the > drives is an interesting subject too. Yes. Sorry about that. I figured that out soon after and sent an apology post for changing the topic. It was not intentional... honest! > > Before I ever try to spin one up, I take the front panel off and remove > > the black pre-filter. It is guaranteed to be disintegrating and turning > > into a fine black powder. Exactly the kind of thing you don't want > > sucked into the drive. > > Ineeed. That crumbing foam is a problem in a lot of old elecrtronics. The > RL is better than some, the pre-filter is at the front end of those 'heat > exchanger' tubes, so the decaying foam isn't plaseted straight onto the > absolute filters as it is in an RK05 or RK07. It still helps to remvoe it What I am seeing is that the intake side of the absolute filter is completely black with dust from that decaying pre-filter. In fact, I tore an absolute filter apart yesterday to reclaim just the outer plastic frame and when I peeled the pleats apart, they were completely covered all the way in with the black dust. The pre-filter on this unit just crumbled when I touched it. > > I then take off the top covers and vacuum out the well where the pack > > sits and wipe the entire area down with a damp cloth. Clean out ALL > > I think I would use prapn-2-ol to dampen the cloth for this. I've also used 409 followed by just a damp wipe after that. > > Then I clean out the rear near the fan. The fan blades will be loaded > > up with dust and I take off the grill and wipe those down with a Swiffer > > duster cloth as well as vacuum the whole fan assembly. > > Most of the time when I'm restorign soemthing, not just RLs, I remvoe the > fan unit completely . Most of the time these fans can be taken apart > (fixings are often under the lable), there are many varients which I > won';t go into here (but will if somebody asks me), but basically you get > to the end of th espidnel, remvoe a circlip and washers, and slide the > rotor out. The housing and blades are then a lot easier to clean. and > you can put a drop of oil on the bearings. Yes... that makes sense and I am likely to go back over the unit and do that level of tune up after I've determined it's worth investing that effort. As I found with the head crasher drive, spending a bunch of detail time up front sometimes doesn't pay off ;-) > > I was just about to post to the list asking if there is a source for these > > absolute filters still (which I doubt) or if anyone has a process for > > I am tols that a farily common car air filter element can be modified to > fit. I do know that some older drives (RK01s?) used a car air filter > element as standard... > > Anyway, the problem is that I can't rememebr which car is the one to ask > for. And at least over here, you go and buy a filter for a particular > car, the shops look at oyu like you're from amrs if you ask for one of > particular dimensions. Yes. I've tried shopping by size on the web too... at all sorts of HEPA filter suppliers... but not so easy. I did find a couple sort of close (in size) filters at one of the DIY centers here... one was for a stand-alone room air cleaner and one was for a vacuum cleaner. I took one and peeled off the surrounding frame and cut it to size with a bread knife... and then glued it into the plastic frame I had scavanged from one of the real filters with elastomeric caulk. I haven't tried it in the drive yet. I'm worried that it won't take the pressure and will just blow right through the thing... so I need to rig the drive so I can spin it up without a pack in there and have the front air dam removed so that if it does blow it out, it goes into the room and not into the drive itself. > Anyone got any ideas? > [...] > > > At this point, I am brave enough to try to spin the drive up. I will > > take a known good not not precious pack and put it in the drive. You > > of course have to have a controller connected to the drive and powered > > on so that the drive gets clock over the interface. At this point you > > should have the fault light out and the load light lit. You can press > > load and hear the drive spin up. Hopefully. I have one drive that will > > spin up, attempt to load the heads and then immediately fault. After > > several experiments trying to get this drive to load the heads so that I > > could do some of the alignment procedures, I found that it was actually > > crashing the head into the media and I wrecked that pack. That drive is > > Do you mean it was headcrashing in the normal sense (wich would indicate > possibly faulty heads) or that the head was hitting the edge of the disk, > or what? I believe it was doing both actually. Sometimes it would get past the edge and onto the surface and then there'd be the tell-tale sound of oxide peeling off and then it would fault and unload (what was left of) the heads. Inspecting the guinea pig pack, shows a nice grove about 1/4" in from the outer edge on the upward facing surface. Dang. -- Chris Elmquist From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Mar 7 21:31:08 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 22:31:08 -0500 Subject: Who will be the last HD maker down the road? Message-ID: <5D60101E9D854896A0C32DAEEECC0F85@dell8300> No Idea who invented the hard drive (IBM maybe?) but Hitachi is selling out its division to WD who will now be number one in the market beating out Seagate. http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9213599/Western_Digital_to_buy_Hitachi_s_disk_storage_division_for_4.3B My stock of HDs has plenty of names that no longer exist (Fujitsu, Maxtor, Connor, Micropolis, Quantum, and maybe a JPS drive). I am sure there are dozens of companies that died before my collecting interest. I wonder if WD will be the last company standing making spinning disks before SSD takes over all markets. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 7 21:41:43 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 19:41:43 -0800 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: <62b3e34083d645adb67fc0e7574d5978@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <4D75738F.1000504@gmail.com>, <62b3e34083d645adb67fc0e7574d5978@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4D7534F7.10693.25A9C30@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Mar 2011 at 17:26, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2011 Mar 7, at 4:08 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Richard wrote: > >> I don't think the multiply implementation in the IBM 701 was > >> shift/add microcode variety. That wouldn't have been very > >> performant for its intended purpose (scientific computing). > > > > I'll have to have a look online and see if I can find any details. I > > see that Booth's algorithm was 1951 - much earlier than I expected > > and a year before the 701. I'm not sure when Wallace trees showed > > up... The 701 had multiply and divide instructions as did the 650. But then, the IBM 603 could multiply and the 604 could multiply and divide. But I have to wonder how some of the instructions were actually implemented in some cases. Consider the Packard Bell PB250. 300 transistors, 2500 diodes and 4 magnetostrictive delay lines for memory. 22 bit words; bit serial ALU, but it had multiply and divide. It'd be fun to try to reconstruct a machine built on such a minimalistic approach. And let's not forget the IBM 1620 (both the I/CADET and the II did multiplicatoin by table lookup. --Chuck From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Mar 7 21:42:02 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 22:42:02 -0500 Subject: Who will be the last HD maker down the road? In-Reply-To: <5D60101E9D854896A0C32DAEEECC0F85@dell8300> References: <5D60101E9D854896A0C32DAEEECC0F85@dell8300> Message-ID: <4D75A58A.70605@atarimuseum.com> Expand it further... Who made the last 14" HD's? The last 8" HD's, are they still making 5.25" HD's? When will the last 3.5" be sold.... So we can really expand this to see what the timeline has been, its like the floppies.... doesn't anyone still make floppy disks brand new or are we just buying up NOS ? Curt Teo Zenios wrote: > No Idea who invented the hard drive (IBM maybe?) but Hitachi is selling out its division to WD who will now be number one in the market beating out Seagate. > > http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9213599/Western_Digital_to_buy_Hitachi_s_disk_storage_division_for_4.3B > > My stock of HDs has plenty of names that no longer exist (Fujitsu, Maxtor, Connor, Micropolis, Quantum, and maybe a JPS drive). I am sure there are dozens of companies that died before my collecting interest. > > I wonder if WD will be the last company standing making spinning disks before SSD takes over all markets. > > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 7 21:47:55 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 19:47:55 -0800 Subject: Who will be the last HD maker down the road? In-Reply-To: <5D60101E9D854896A0C32DAEEECC0F85@dell8300> References: <5D60101E9D854896A0C32DAEEECC0F85@dell8300> Message-ID: <4D75366B.21696.2604652@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Mar 2011 at 22:31, Teo Zenios wrote: > I wonder if WD will be the last company standing making spinning disks > before SSD takes over all markets. We may be using flash both for external storage and internal storage. There are some interesting developments that promise flash with the speed of DRAM with a similar economy of scale. Having spent a hunk of my professional life in computer forensics, I found the following paper which posits that conventional data recovery on SSDs isn't going to work very well: http://www.jdfsl.org/subscriptions/JDFSL-V5N3-Bell.pdf --Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Mar 7 22:38:40 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 20:38:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Heath H-1 analog computer In-Reply-To: <4D753EDA.1050405@neurotica.com> References: <4D753EDA.1050405@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Mar 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > You know, I've been wondering about that. Nowhere have I seen any > reference to the "H-1" model name. Not on the machine, not in the docs, > nowhere. The former owner referred to it as such, and some googling turns up > a few pages describing this machine and calling it by that name. When you learn more, please consider doing a writeup for old-computers.com. I'm sure they'd love to have a page for your new find. They do have a writeup for a similar, but smaller computer: the EC-1. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Mar 7 22:45:03 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 20:45:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Heath H-1 analog computer In-Reply-To: <4D753EDA.1050405@neurotica.com> References: <4D753EDA.1050405@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Mar 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > You know, I've been wondering about that. Nowhere have I seen any > reference to the "H-1" model name. Not on the machine, not in the docs, > nowhere. The former owner referred to it as such, and some googling turns up > a few pages describing this machine and calling it by that name. I hit ^X too soon. A bit of crosschecking tells me that your machine is a Heathkit ES-400 and was released in 1956. One seems to have appeared on Ebay in the past few months. Here's the manual: http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Heath/Heath.Analog.1956.102646297.pdf -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From evan at snarc.net Mon Mar 7 22:49:58 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 23:49:58 -0500 Subject: Heath H-1 analog computer In-Reply-To: <4D745790.2090907@snarc.net> References: <4D73FF3E.7020904@neurotica.com> <142af464a2978199d5c4c9d4d770b244@cs.ubc.ca> <4D741385.6060704@neurotica.com> <201103070101.p2711kGM047719@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4D7456C8.4050707@neurotica.com> <4D745790.2090907@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4D75B576.6060604@snarc.net> >>> Wonderful! Any idea of how many of these are still around, apart >>> from the one at CHM? >> It certainly is. As I just mentioned on another list that you may >> have seen, it's 30" wide, 25" deep, and 17" tall including the >> top-mounted tubes in the amplifiers. It weighs about 180lbs. >> >> Apart from CHM's and one in a private museum in Germany, I don't know >> of any others. > > Somebody in MARCH has one. I was wrong. The person has an EC-1. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Mar 7 22:55:22 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 20:55:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Heath H-1 analog computer In-Reply-To: References: <4D753EDA.1050405@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Mar 2011, David Griffith wrote: > On Mon, 7 Mar 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> You know, I've been wondering about that. Nowhere have I seen any >> reference to the "H-1" model name. Not on the machine, not in the docs, >> nowhere. The former owner referred to it as such, and some googling turns >> up a few pages describing this machine and calling it by that name. > > I hit ^X too soon. A bit of crosschecking tells me that your machine is a > Heathkit ES-400 and was released in 1956. One seems to have appeared on Ebay > in the past few months. > > Here's the manual: > http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Heath/Heath.Analog.1956.102646297.pdf Oh crud... That's not the model name and that's not the manual. Oh well. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Mar 7 23:03:01 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 00:03:01 -0500 Subject: Who will be the last HD maker down the road? References: <5D60101E9D854896A0C32DAEEECC0F85@dell8300> <4D75366B.21696.2604652@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5DB24F26033A443D8ED3AEE201FD2289@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 10:47 PM Subject: Re: Who will be the last HD maker down the road? > On 7 Mar 2011 at 22:31, Teo Zenios wrote: > >> I wonder if WD will be the last company standing making spinning disks >> before SSD takes over all markets. > > We may be using flash both for external storage and internal storage. > There are some interesting developments that promise flash with the > speed of DRAM with a similar economy of scale. > > Having spent a hunk of my professional life in computer forensics, I > found the following paper which posits that conventional data > recovery on SSDs isn't going to work very well: > > http://www.jdfsl.org/subscriptions/JDFSL-V5N3-Bell.pdf > > --Chuck > > Interesting paper. So some kid 50 years from now can hack into the worlds digital library and send a reformat command to the raid and after 3 minutes of just sitting idle nothing will be recoverable. From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Mar 7 23:49:34 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 00:49:34 -0500 Subject: Who will be the last HD maker down the road? In-Reply-To: <4D75366B.21696.2604652@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5D60101E9D854896A0C32DAEEECC0F85@dell8300> <4D75366B.21696.2604652@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D75C36E.70408@verizon.net> On 3/7/2011 10:47 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Having spent a hunk of my professional life in computer forensics, I > found the following paper which posits that conventional data > recovery on SSDs isn't going to work very well: > > http://www.jdfsl.org/subscriptions/JDFSL-V5N3-Bell.pdf > > --Chuck > Chuck, Have you followed this slashdot comment train? http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/11/03/01/1740240/SSDs-Cause-Crisis-For-Digital-Forensics I read Graeme's comment towards the top, but it didn't clear it up too much for me. The other paper here http://www.usenix.org/events/fast11/tech/full_papers/Wei.pdf and summary info http://news.techworld.com/storage/3262210/ssd-drives-difficult-to-wipe-securely-researchers-find/ is another paper which posits almost the opposite position? Curious as to what your take on this, if you have a position. Thanks Keith From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 7 23:55:58 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 21:55:58 -0800 Subject: I Never Knew That The VT100 Was A Computer :-) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D75C4EE.7040007@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Well, it has an 8080 microprocessor, ROM, RAM, input (keyboard and > serial), and output (video display and serial). What more do you want? :-) Tony Duell wrote: > User programability? What, you don't have an EPROM programmer? From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 8 00:02:23 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 22:02:23 -0800 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: <4D7554BF.5090201@gmail.com> References: <4D7554BF.5090201@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4D75C66F.4000701@brouhaha.com> Jules Richardson wrote: >... or mid-late '70s and early '80s CPUs, to be more specific. [...] > * mainframe, mini, micro; I'm not picky. Since you're restricting it to mid-70s to early 80s, then essentially every mainframe and many (most?) minicomputers had hardware multiply/divide instructions. Eric From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 8 00:18:43 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 01:18:43 -0500 Subject: Heath H-1 analog computer In-Reply-To: References: <4D753EDA.1050405@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <2DFC1BBB-4AF4-479F-B8DA-A40D44477169@neurotica.com> On Mar 7, 2011, at 11:55 PM, David Griffith wrote: > On Mon, 7 Mar 2011, David Griffith wrote: > >> On Mon, 7 Mar 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>> You know, I've been wondering about that. Nowhere have I seen any reference to the "H-1" model name. Not on the machine, not in the docs, nowhere. The former owner referred to it as such, and some googling turns up a few pages describing this machine and calling it by that name. >> >> I hit ^X too soon. A bit of crosschecking tells me that your machine is a Heathkit ES-400 and was released in 1956. One seems to have appeared on Ebay in the past few months. >> >> Here's the manual: http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Heath/Heath.Analog.1956.102646297.pdf > > Oh crud... That's not the model name and that's not the manual. Oh well. Yeah, it's complicated. :) I have all of the original documentation with mine, though. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 8 00:54:42 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 22:54:42 -0800 Subject: Who will be the last HD maker down the road? In-Reply-To: <5D60101E9D854896A0C32DAEEECC0F85@dell8300> References: <5D60101E9D854896A0C32DAEEECC0F85@dell8300> Message-ID: <4D75D2B2.4050907@brouhaha.com> Teo Zenios wrote: > No Idea who invented the hard drive (IBM maybe?) Yes, the IBM 350 disk system back in 1956, as part of the IBM 305 RAMAC computer. The disk drive was about the size of a refrigerator, stored 5 million characters, and leased for over $3K/month. > but Hitachi is selling out its division to WD who will now > be number one in the market beating out Seagate. Note that Hitachi Global Storage Technologies (HGST) was originally IBM's hard disk drive division. > I wonder if WD will be the last company standing making spinning disks before SSD takes over all markets. There have been a LOT of predictions of the end of spinning disks over the years. It will certainly happen eventually, but I'd wager that it's still at least ten years away. Eric From pinball at telus.net Mon Mar 7 14:02:32 2011 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 12:02:32 -0800 Subject: Heath H-1 analog computer In-Reply-To: <4D73FF3E.7020904@neurotica.com> References: <4D73FF3E.7020904@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D7539D8.5080300@telus.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > > Hey folks! I'm giggling like a little girl here, so I just wanted > to share. :) Recently I was lucky enough to acquire a Heath H-1 > analog computer from a very cool guy named Norman in Maine. My lady > and I drove up there to pick it up. It's...just plain awesome. > > I've just finished putting together a page about it here, with > pictures: > > http://www.neurotica.com/wiki/Heath_H-1_Analog_Computer > > -Dave > Hi Dave, Great acquisition, and I saw where you are planning on changing or reforming the electrolytic caps. I would strongly recommend that you replace (or test with the appropriate tool - I'd use my Heathkit Capacitor tester) any and all of the other non-electrolytic caps. None of these were designed to last 50 some years, and are likely to be leaking due to age, this will lead to overheated resistors and possibly tube failures. Once the caps are tested then check the plate and cathode resistors to make sure they haven't drifted. You can normally check these in-circuit with modern multimeters. I would NOT try powering up this machine until the caps are tested/replaced, plus any 115VAC power cords are checked for brittle insulation. Many flexible wire cables from that period are now dried out and the insulation is brittle. Internal power wires also should be checked. Oh, and make sure the fuses are the correct ratings - sometimes people substitute something 'temporarily' - I've seen aluminum foil, wire, fuse holder shorted out completely, or vastly higher fuses installed... If the rectifiers are Selenium (look like fins on a stick) then sniff for signs or problems (rotten eggs is bad). If good, then carry on. If bad you can replace them with Silicon bridges, but you MUST check that the AC inputs to the bridge are fused, not the outputs as was common with Selenium. The reason Selenium were fused on the output was if the Selenium bridge virtually always fail open, whereas Silicon rectifiers short out - not good for the power transformer if unfused on the AC leads to the Silicon bridge.... John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From tingox at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 14:37:37 2011 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 21:37:37 +0100 Subject: "300 Baud" magazine shuts down In-Reply-To: References: <4D749ED3.6050506@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 2:34 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Mon, 7 Mar 2011, Eric Smith wrote: > >> Issue #3 is unfortunately the final issue. >> >> You can now get PDF files of issues 1 through 3 from their web site: >> ? ? ?http://www.300baudmagazine.com/ > > That's a shame, it was kind of a neat magazine. ?I'd purchased both issues > and wasn't aware #3 was out already. I agree. Anyway, well done - 3 issues of the magazine was much, much better than no issues. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From tingox at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 14:47:11 2011 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 21:47:11 +0100 Subject: Lorlin Impact Test System Disk... In-Reply-To: <20110306220400.GE1992@n0jcf.net> References: <201103051556.45169.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <20110306220149.GD1992@n0jcf.net> <20110306220400.GE1992@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: Hello, On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 11:04 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > OK. ?I totally misread the original posting. ?I thought the > discussion was about the RL02 drive and not the packs. ?Apologies. No need for blushing. Your posting was an interesting read for me (and I suspect a few others as well), and contains valuable information which can be applied in general, not only for the RL02 drive. IMHO, anyway. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From philip at axeside.co.uk Mon Mar 7 14:49:21 2011 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 20:49:21 +0000 Subject: Free: Stack of Victor or Sirius floppy disks In-Reply-To: <20110307100710.X18890@shell.lmi.net> References: <4D720DDF.4010500@axeside.co.uk> <20110307100710.X18890@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4D7544D1.5000007@axeside.co.uk> >>>>> Send one to Philip. But, don't tell him what's special about the format >>>>> until he ferrets it out! :-) >> When I first read that, I thought "How did Fred know I had a Sirius?" :-) > > Sorry. I was referring to DiskFerret Philip. We need to keep him > supplied with all of the weirdest ones. No need to apologise. I realised what you meant when I got to the "ferrets it out" line. But I do have a Sirius, so I could take the disks if no-one else does. Philip. From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 20:33:09 2011 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 21:33:09 -0500 Subject: New to the List -- Criteria for Being Salvageable? -- Query Message-ID: Hello fellow classic computer enthusiasts. I'm quite new to the list, but an avid fan of all things "retro" computerwise. Though, at present I don't have anything that could be described as a "classic" system beyond a KSR-33 teletype made by Leigh up here in Canada sometime during the 60s or 70s. Now, on to what the main thing I wanted to discuss... I'm a student at Brock University in southern Ontario, and I've noticed that the faculty of computer science has a small collection of quite vintage machines; from what I remember there's a "classic" PDP-8, a PDP-8/L and an HP2116 I think. They also have a nice ASR-33 teletype in the collection, as well as various other tidbits. So, my question is what would the criteria be to be able to make those systems capable of being run once more? From a cursory visual inspection, the PDP-8 appears to be complete, FLIP-CHIP wise, the PDP-8/L is enclosed but dusty, and I think the HP - which is open - has a pretty nice loadout of cards. So going by modules I would say all the hardware is there (save power supplies?), so what would be needed to bring up one of those systems? And more importantly, would any one be interested in signing (an online) petition to the BrockU CS Faculty to convince them to try and restore one of their minis and their terminal back into a functional state? And as a final query, I have no idea if this could be considered off topic or not, but are there any DEC enthusiasts in southern Ontario? (And any who are willing to part with a PDP-11 or OMNIBUS based PDP-8?) Cheers everyone, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 8 01:04:57 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 23:04:57 -0800 Subject: Who will be the last HD maker down the road? In-Reply-To: <4D75A58A.70605@atarimuseum.com> References: <5D60101E9D854896A0C32DAEEECC0F85@dell8300> <4D75A58A.70605@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4D75D519.4050402@brouhaha.com> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > are they still making 5.25" HD's? The are late but little lamented. I think the last were the Quantum Bigfoot TS (half height, up to 19GB) and Seagate Elite 23 and 47 (full height, 23GB and 47GB), and IIRC both were discontinued by mid-2000. Eric From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Mar 8 02:30:00 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 00:30:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Heath H-1 analog computer In-Reply-To: <2DFC1BBB-4AF4-479F-B8DA-A40D44477169@neurotica.com> References: <4D753EDA.1050405@neurotica.com> <2DFC1BBB-4AF4-479F-B8DA-A40D44477169@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Mar 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Mar 7, 2011, at 11:55 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> On Mon, 7 Mar 2011, David Griffith wrote: >> >>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> >>>> You know, I've been wondering about that. Nowhere have I seen any >>>> reference to the "H-1" model name. Not on the machine, not in the >>>> docs, nowhere. The former owner referred to it as such, and some >>>> googling turns up a few pages describing this machine and calling it >>>> by that name. >>> >>> I hit ^X too soon. A bit of crosschecking tells me that your machine >>> is a Heathkit ES-400 and was released in 1956. One seems to have >>> appeared on Ebay in the past few months. >>> >>> Here's the manual: >>> http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Heath/Heath.Analog.1956.102646297.pdf >> >> Oh crud... That's not the model name and that's not the manual. Oh >> well. > > Yeah, it's complicated. :) I have all of the original documentation > with mine, though. Good. It looks like you're way ahead of me then. I still want to see a writeup for old-computers.com. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Mar 8 02:35:13 2011 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 00:35:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Heath H-1 analog computer In-Reply-To: <2DFC1BBB-4AF4-479F-B8DA-A40D44477169@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <831392.49611.qm@web82605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 3/7/11, Dave McGuire wrote: Hi, Dave. I saw this on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Computer-Flyer-Heathkit-Analog-Ham-Radio-/300533653637?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45f933a085 --Bill From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Mar 8 02:37:32 2011 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 00:37:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Oops! (was Re: Heath H-1 analog computer) In-Reply-To: <831392.49611.qm@web82605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <210404.6852.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> That last message was supposed to be private. --Bill From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Mar 8 09:26:31 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 07:26:31 -0800 Subject: Who will be the last HD maker down the road? In-Reply-To: <5DB24F26033A443D8ED3AEE201FD2289@dell8300> References: <5D60101E9D854896A0C32DAEEECC0F85@dell8300> <4D75366B.21696.2604652@cclist.sydex.com> <5DB24F26033A443D8ED3AEE201FD2289@dell8300> Message-ID: <4D764AA7.6050608@bitsavers.org> On 3/7/11 9:03 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > So some kid 50 years from now can hack into the worlds digital library and send a reformat command to the raid and after 3 minutes of just sitting idle nothing will be recoverable. > There would be something fundamentally broken in this library's architecture if anyone would be capable of wiping out every on-line and off-line backup of archived digital assets from a 'reformat' command. From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Mar 8 10:03:05 2011 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 10:03:05 -0600 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs (6809) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 23:56 -0600 3/7/11, Jules wrote: >Yes, that seems to be the 'famous' one that gets mentioned everywhere. It >seems it was of the shift-add variety. Anyone recall if it would work with >signed integers? (I'm just trying to work out how the math works for signed >multiplies at the moment) I have a scanned .pdf of the 6809 programmer's manual here, happy to send out if anyone wants it, but it's 12.8 MBytes. (I got it from the freescale website, since reorganized; it's online at http://www.maddes.net/m6809pm/ .) It says the MUL instruction A x B -> D (unsigned) takes 11 MPU cycles. ADD instructions take a minimum of 2 cycles, as do shift (roll, etc) instructions. So I think maybe there must have been some silicon (vs. microcode) involved in the multiply? I don't see how the shift-add sequence could be done in only 11 cycles. MUL is unsigned arithmetic only. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Mar 8 10:15:41 2011 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 08:15:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs (6809) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Mar 2011, Mark Tapley wrote: > Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 10:03:05 -0600 > From: Mark Tapley > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs (6809) > > At 23:56 -0600 3/7/11, Jules wrote: >> Yes, that seems to be the 'famous' one that gets mentioned everywhere. It >> seems it was of the shift-add variety. Anyone recall if it would work with >> signed integers? (I'm just trying to work out how the math works for signed >> multiplies at the moment) > > I have a scanned .pdf of the 6809 programmer's manual here, happy to > send out if anyone wants it, but it's 12.8 MBytes. (I got it from the > freescale website, since reorganized; it's online at > http://www.maddes.net/m6809pm/ .) > > It says the MUL instruction A x B -> D (unsigned) takes 11 MPU > cycles. ADD instructions take a minimum of 2 cycles, as do shift (roll, etc) > instructions. So I think maybe there must have been some silicon (vs. > microcode) involved in the multiply? I don't see how the shift-add sequence > could be done in only 11 cycles. > > MUL is unsigned arithmetic only. > -- > - Mark 210-379-4635 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Large Asteroids headed toward planets > inhabited by beings that don't have > technology adequate to stop them: > > Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. > Since its an 8x8 multiply it should only take 8 cycles with shift+add Peter Wallace From brian at quarterbyte.com Tue Mar 8 10:40:50 2011 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 08:40:50 -0800 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs Message-ID: <4D765C12.18698.1C92E344@brian.quarterbyte.com> The IBM 1130 had 16x16 multiply and divide in 1967. Shift and add. It was not a microcoded machine. On average, a multiply took 26 usec, and 11 of those were the overhead of fetching the instruction and operands. From rickb at bensene.com Tue Mar 8 12:09:21 2011 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 10:09:21 -0800 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs Message-ID: Konrad Zuse's Z3 relay computer, built in 1941, had hard wired 22-bit floating point multiply, divide, and square root instructions. That is likely the first implementation of hardware multiply and divide in a computer. Multiply took up to 3 seconds. From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Mar 8 10:38:31 2011 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 11:38:31 -0500 Subject: I Never Knew That The VT100 Was A Computer :-) References: Message-ID: <9470F52A6279455B9AB3D252F51C606A@vl420mt> ----- Original Message ----- > > Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 15:02:57 -0800 (PST) > From: Fred Cisin > Subject: Re: I Never Knew That The VT100 Was A Computer :-) > It had some damage; I had to retrieve it after the college dumpstered MY > collection (in spite of specific paperwork from the dean authorizing it!) > I'd like to drop it on a college administrator's head. > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com ----- Reply: ----- No wonder you're grumpy... m From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Mar 8 12:10:59 2011 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 13:10:59 -0500 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs References: Message-ID: <8B12FBF29F944F368C4654DF7B9BD2F2@vl420mt> ----- Original Message ----- > > Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 15:27:46 -0800 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: Re: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs > > There were math co-processor boards (AM9511, AM9512, for example) for > S100 systems. ISTR that there was even a TRW bipolar (16x16? Huge > chip that ran hot as a pistol) for the S100 bus. > > --Chuck ----- Reply: ----- Also Cromemco's Maximizer co-processor and the XXU 68020/68881 (and later 68040) processor boards. From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Mar 8 12:10:35 2011 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 13:10:35 -0500 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- > Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 19:41:43 -0800 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: Re: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs > > The 701 had multiply and divide instructions as did the 650. But > then, the IBM 603 could multiply and the 604 could multiply and > divide. > > --Chuck ----- Reply: ----- I suppose within the paradigm of the day you could consider the 603 and 604 "numeric co-processors", the only electronic (tubes of course) components in an otherwise electro-mechanical "system". The 603's claim to fame is that it's considered to be "the first mass-produced commercial electronic calculating device" and the 604 which came two years later in 1948 was an improved version which, as Chuck points out, added division capabilities. Having myself worked with the 604 (640 kilos/4 m3) I had to chuckle at its being called 'a miniature electronic calculator'; the word 'miniature' certainly had a different meaning in the context of the day: http://www.science.uva.nl/faculteit/museum/604.php Wish I'd kept my IBM manuals, including the 604; the person to whom I sent them years ago (you know who you are ;-) solemnly promised to make them available on the 'web, but I haven't found them so far... BTW, FWIW with a little fancy programming the 40x series of 'tabulating machines' could also be made to multiply, albeit *very* slowly... ;-) mike From legalize at xmission.com Tue Mar 8 12:15:32 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 11:15:32 -0700 Subject: Who will be the last HD maker down the road? In-Reply-To: <4D75366B.21696.2604652@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5D60101E9D854896A0C32DAEEECC0F85@dell8300> <4D75366B.21696.2604652@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4D75366B.21696.2604652 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > We may be using flash both for external storage and internal storage. Flash memory is problematic for secure data. Basically, its nearly impossible to securely erase a file from flash based disks. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 8 12:30:59 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 10:30:59 -0800 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4D760563.14441.F2E1B@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Mar 2011 at 13:10, MikeS wrote: > BTW, FWIW with a little fancy programming the 40x series of > 'tabulating machines' could also be made to multiply, albeit *very* > slowly... ;-) I seem to remember reading in the day about making a 407 multiply through clever programming ("programming" in the sense of wires in a plugboard), but never saw it done. Did it involve using an external reproducing punch (e.g. 514) as a memory device for the intermediate sums? --Chuck From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Mar 8 12:40:20 2011 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 13:40:20 -0500 Subject: New to the List -- Criteria for Being Salvageable? -- Query References: Message-ID: <10D2BBA4C79D48CA91A5869ADB6313B0@vl420mt> ----- Original Message ----- > Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 21:33:09 -0500 > From: Christian Gauger-Cosgrove > Subject: New to the List -- Criteria for Being Salvageable? -- Query > > ...And as a final query, I have no idea if this could be considered off > topic or not, but are there any DEC enthusiasts in southern Ontario? > (And any who are willing to part with a PDP-11 or OMNIBUS based > PDP-8?) > > Cheers everyone, > > Christian Gauger-Cosgrove ----- Reply: ----- Several on this list are in the GTA and Ottawa area that I know of, but I don't know what if anything they want to part with ;-) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 7 16:20:04 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 22:20:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: <4D7554BF.5090201@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Mar 7, 11 03:57:19 pm Message-ID: > > > ... or mid-late '70s and early '80s CPUs, to be more specific. Can anyone > furnish me with a better knowledge as to which processors of that kind of time > period had hardware multiplication and division support? > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_multiplier mentions the 6809, but I'm > curious as to which* others had such hardware features (and when they started > moving from simple shift-add routines to more complex approaches which used > more silicon - or did that not happen until much later in the 80s?) > > * mainframe, mini, micro; I'm not picky. I'm more interested in building up a > picture of how widespread hardware support was, and the various approaches > that designers used. What do you mean by 'hardware' multiply and divide? A number of machines, I suspect the 6809 is amongst them, had no particualrl hardware for multiply or divide, but they did have multiply and maybe divide instrucitons in the instruction setc. These instrucitons were implemented by microcode using the normal registers and ALU. Does that count? IIRC, the PDP11 got hardware multiply and divide with the 11/45 in 1972. It was simple shift+add IIRC. The floating point boards for that machine implemented multiply and divide suing a few speedup tricks (like subtracinging, skipping paset a block of 1s in the multiply and then edding, so that, for example, *15 became a *-1 + *16 if you see what I mean). And IIRC, there wa sno multiply-specific hardare (or at least not much) on the 11/45 CPU. Itwas mostly done in microcode. Not all PDP11s had said instrucitons after that, though. The EAE Extended Artihmetic Element) for the PDP11 (a Unibus card that would wotk in any Unibus machine) and a similar add-on for the PDP8/e CPU were essnetially hardware multiply/divide boards. The Unibus one didn't add to the processor instruction set, rather it had its own registers (accessed like I./O ports) that you loaded the numbers into and read the rsult from. The PERQ1 (4K WCS) -- 1979-- had no multiply/divide supprot, the PERQ1a -- 9180 -- (and thus all later classic PERQs) had the MulStep/DivStep hardware which let you calcu;ate one bit of the product or quotient in one microcycle (using restoring division). However the stnadard microcode for all classic PERQs (loaded from disk at boot-up) had multiply and divide _machine_ code instructions. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 8 12:48:55 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 10:48:55 -0800 Subject: Who will be the last HD maker down the road? In-Reply-To: <4D75C36E.70408@verizon.net> References: <5D60101E9D854896A0C32DAEEECC0F85@dell8300>, <4D75366B.21696.2604652@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D75C36E.70408@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4D760997.14682.1F9A64@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Mar 2011 at 0:49, Keith Monahan wrote: > Have you followed this slashdot comment train? > > http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/11/03/01/1740240/SSDs-Cause-Crisis- > For-Digital-Forensics > > I read Graeme's comment towards the top, but it didn't clear it up too > much for me. > > The other paper here > > http://www.usenix.org/events/fast11/tech/full_papers/Wei.pdf > > and summary info > > http://news.techworld.com/storage/3262210/ssd-drives-difficult-to-wipe > -securely-researchers-find/ > > is another paper which posits almost the opposite position? > > > Curious as to what your take on this, if you have a position. The Wei paper sure looks nice, but most of what it says is obvious. They really lost me when they discussed trying to degauss a SSD. Graeme and Wei are essentially saying the same thing, with Wei pointing out that some early SSDs don't do what they're supposed to do. In a sense, it doesn't matter. The sharp crooks use time-proven methods to cover their tracks. By the time SSDs offer the same economies of scale as mechanical hard drives, I imagine that obliterating deleted data for those who wish to will not be a problem. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Mar 8 13:56:17 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 11:56:17 -0800 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: <4D75738F.1000504@gmail.com> References: <4D756F00.6000706@gmail.com> <4D75738F.1000504@gmail.com> Message-ID: Looking through the Osborne book (Introduction to Microcomputers - Some Real Products / 1976), here's another to add to the list: the MicroNova/9440 microprocessor ca 1977 had built-in 16-bit multiply and divide instructions. Can anyone comment on how much use or production the MicroNova or Fairchild 9440 chips actually saw? From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 8 14:14:13 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 12:14:13 -0800 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: References: , <4D75738F.1000504@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <4D761D95.27232.6DB469@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Mar 2011 at 11:56, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Looking through the Osborne book (Introduction to Microcomputers - > Some Real Products / 1976), here's another to add to the list: the > MicroNova/9440 microprocessor ca 1977 had built-in 16-bit multiply and > divide instructions. > > Can anyone comment on how much use or production the MicroNova or > Fairchild 9440 chips actually saw? I mentioned the MicroNova. If you weren't DoD-related, you could forget getting the 9440, 9445, 9450...CPUs. Fairchild wouldn't give you the time of day on those. Same for the I2L versions of the TI 9900. --Chuck From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Mar 8 14:20:02 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 20:20:02 -0000 Subject: RL02 Pack tear-down and clean (was: Lorlin Impact Test SystemDisk...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > I don;t think those data files are worth keepoing. But I don't like > erasing control programs as many times I've been in the > reverse position > (I've obtained some odd bit of hardware and can't get the > software for > it). I would try to save them on an RX02 or something. Given that it's an RL02, why not just image the whole thing? Compress it afterwards with 7z or something and it'll be, what, a meg or so? That's maybe half the size of the average HTML email :-) Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 8 12:51:20 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 18:51:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: "300 Baud" magazine shuts down In-Reply-To: from "Torfinn Ingolfsen" at Mar 7, 11 09:37:37 pm Message-ID: > > On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 2:34 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > > On Mon, 7 Mar 2011, Eric Smith wrote: > > > >> Issue #3 is unfortunately the final issue. > >> > >> You can now get PDF files of issues 1 through 3 from their web site: > >> =A0 =A0 =A0http://www.300baudmagazine.com/ > > > > That's a shame, it was kind of a neat magazine. =A0I'd purchased both iss= I enjoyed reading the 3 issues on the web site, but I am not sure I would ahve subscribed to it even if I'd known it existed. Of course, if you enjoyed it, there's nothing to stop you prodcuing a similar magazine on your own. But I warn you, my experience is that getting people to write articles is next-to-impossible. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 8 12:57:25 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 18:57:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: <4D755EC3.90207@verizon.net> from "allison" at Mar 7, 11 05:40:03 pm Message-ID: > > You forgot one. > > Northstar* S100 system had an optional FPB it did BCD math (ADD, SUB, > MUL, DIV) for two operand of 2 to 14 BCD digits. It was much faster than > could be done with software in the Z80. I 'forgot' many more than one, I can assure you. Thre was that AM9511 chip that was interefaced to many machines (I have seen an Apple ][ card with it on). I am not sure that counts, though. It didn't really extend the normal processor instrcuton set, rather it was a periphral for doing arithmetic. > > EAE was PDP-8 Maybe I've mis-remeebred the name. There was a hex-height Unibus board (jsut one obard) that was a hardware integer multiplier and divider. It was used with PDP11s that didn't ahve EIS (11/04, 1/05, etc) and it required special software support. It didn't add to the processor instruciton set, rahter you wrote the operands to particular I/O addreses and read the results back in the same way. I am pretty sure RT11 Fortran could use it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 8 13:03:46 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 19:03:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: I Never Knew That The VT100 Was A Computer :-) In-Reply-To: <20110307145621.D28046@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Mar 7, 11 02:57:06 pm Message-ID: > > > > Well, it has an 8080 microprocessor, ROM, RAM, input (keyboard and > > > serial), and output (video display and serial). What more do you want? :-) > > On Mon, 7 Mar 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > > User programability? > > Howzbout putting in ZIF socket(s) for the ROM(s)? Ah yes, but since I would then have to turn the VT100 off to replace the ROMs, it can't actually be used while I am programming it (== plugging in the new ROMs). So when I am programming it I am not a user. [This is similar to my explanation of the 'No user serviceable parts inside'. When I am servicing it, it's broken, so I can't be a user :-)] -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 8 13:07:07 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 19:07:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: <4D74F972.18273.17219F8@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Mar 7, 11 03:27:46 pm Message-ID: > > There were math co-processor boards (AM9511, AM9512, for example) for > S100 systems. ISTR that there was even a TRW bipolar (16x16? Huge > chip that ran hot as a pistol) for the S100 bus. There was am 8*8 (I think) parallel multiplier chip in the 74xxx TTL family. 40 pin thing. I've come across it twice. Once in an early electronic still camera (to multiply the outptus of the ADC by the values storted in a compensation EPROM, and thus handle the non-uniform repsonse of the CCD). The other time was in a leased-line modem which seems to implement some kind of DSP using this chip and, IIRC, 2900 series. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 8 13:30:44 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 19:30:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RL02 drive tuneup was Re: Lorlin Impact Test System Disk... In-Reply-To: <20110308025140.GG2281@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Mar 7, 11 08:51:40 pm Message-ID: > > On Monday (03/07/2011 at 09:31PM +0000), Tony Duell wrote: > > > > What do you do? I know the stanadard procedure for RK05 packs, but what > > > > do you dismantle, and how do you clean, the RL's? > > > > Actually, I was asking about cleaning the RL _packs_, but doing the > > drives is an interesting subject too. > > Yes. Sorry about that. I figured that out soon after and sent an apology > post for changing the topic. It was not intentional... honest! No mneed to apologise. I can't see how restoring the RL02 _drive_ is in any wat off-copic for this list. And it's an intersting (to me at least) thread. > > > > Before I ever try to spin one up, I take the front panel off and remove > > > the black pre-filter. It is guaranteed to be disintegrating and turning > > > into a fine black powder. Exactly the kind of thing you don't want > > > sucked into the drive. > > > > Ineeed. That crumbing foam is a problem in a lot of old elecrtronics. The > > RL is better than some, the pre-filter is at the front end of those 'heat > > exchanger' tubes, so the decaying foam isn't plaseted straight onto the > > absolute filters as it is in an RK05 or RK07. It still helps to remvoe it > > What I am seeing is that the intake side of the absolute filter is > completely black with dust from that decaying pre-filter. In fact, > I tore an absolute filter apart yesterday to reclaim just the outer > plastic frame and when I peeled the pleats apart, they were completely Ouch!. In other wrods get that darn pre-filter out before even thinking of turning on the drive. > > Most of the time when I'm restorign soemthing, not just RLs, I remvoe the > > fan unit completely . Most of the time these fans can be taken apart > > (fixings are often under the lable), there are many varients which I > > won';t go into here (but will if somebody asks me), but basically you get > > to the end of th espidnel, remvoe a circlip and washers, and slide the > > rotor out. The housing and blades are then a lot easier to clean. and > > you can put a drop of oil on the bearings. > > Yes... that makes sense and I am likely to go back over the unit and do > that level of tune up after I've determined it's worth investing that I;'ve got to the point where I just strip and clean the fan anyway. If the drive turns out to be only suitable as a parts-donor, I do at least have a clean fan that can go into something else :-) > I did find a couple sort of close (in size) filters at one of the DIY > centers here... one was for a stand-alone room air cleaner and one was > for a vacuum cleaner. I took one and peeled off the surrounding frame and > cut it to size with a bread knife... and then glued it into the plastic > frame I had scavanged from one of the real filters with elastomeric caulk. > I haven't tried it in the drive yet. I'm worried that it won't take > the pressure and will just blow right through the thing... so I need > to rig the drive so I can spin it up without a pack in there and have > the front air dam removed so that if it does blow it out, it goes into > the room and not into the drive itself. IIRC, the blower fan is on the spidnle motor in these drives, so you have to have the spidnle turning for this. And I think it takes the speed reference from the sectr notches on the pack, so you cna't have the driving running at the right speed with no pack in it. Darn. But you probably can get it so that the motor is running flat out. If the filter will stand that, it should stnad the lower airflow when the motor is running at the right speed. I think if I was doing this sort of thing, I'd make atest board to connect ot the 'AC Servo' PCB (the motor cotnrol PCB fised to the rear panel) that set the inputs to said board appropraitely to turn on the motor. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 8 13:08:56 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 19:08:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: <4D756F00.6000706@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Mar 7, 11 05:49:20 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > What do you mean by 'hardware' multiply and divide? A number of machines, > > I suspect the 6809 is amongst them, had no particualrl hardware for > > multiply or divide, but they did have multiply and maybe divide > > instrucitons in the instruction setc. These instrucitons were implemented > > by microcode using the normal registers and ALU. Does that count? > > Yes, anything that includes a dedicated multiply or divide instruction as part > of the instruction set; I suspect a lot of the early implementations fall into > the "simple shift-add" that I mentioned due to the lack/cost of silicon. What do you mean by 'instruction set'. In particular, what do you do about machines (PERQ, for example) that load their microocde at power-on and thus don't have a fixed machine code instrcution set. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 8 13:23:52 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 19:23:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New to the List -- Criteria for Being Salvageable? -- Query In-Reply-To: from "Christian Gauger-Cosgrove" at Mar 7, 11 09:33:09 pm Message-ID: > > Hello fellow classic computer enthusiasts. I'm quite new to the list, Hello, and welcome ot the list. > but an avid fan of all things "retro" computerwise. Though, at present > I don't have anything that could be described as a "classic" system > beyond a KSR-33 teletype made by Leigh up here in Canada sometime > during the 60s or 70s. That's a good start :-) > > Now, on to what the main thing I wanted to discuss... > > I'm a student at Brock University in southern Ontario, and I've > noticed that the faculty of computer science has a small collection of > quite vintage machines; from what I remember there's a "classic" > PDP-8, a PDP-8/L and an HP2116 I think. They also have a nice ASR-33 > teletype in the collection, as well as various other tidbits. > > So, my question is what would the criteria be to be able to make those > systems capable of being run once more? From a cursory visual I would suggest the following as being useful/necessary 1) A failry complete example of the machine you care goign to restore. Missing parts are mucnh more of a problem than defective parts IMHO. If all the PCBs are there, it's a good start 2) Spare parts. It's actually amazing how may of the spares I need for classic computers are still very easy to get. The sort of machines you mention are not goign to be too ahrd to get parts for -- at the component level, of course. It's a lot easier to get spares for a 1970's minicomputer than fro a 1990s PC. 3) Information : DEC manuals, printsrets (scheamtics), etc are often available from bitsavers. I don't know if the HP2116 hardware documentation is on the Australian musesum site. If you can't get scheamtics, you have to spend many, many, days reverse-engineering the machine. This is somethign I would only recoemnd tryign if you are (a) knowledgeable aobut how CPUs work at the gate level (in genral) and (b) insane 4) Somebody (or group of people) who are willing to put the time in. Restorign a minicomputer is likely to take some time, particularly if it's the first time you've ever senbe a CPU that wasn't a single chip. On the otehr hand, you'll learn alot from doing it (although how useful this is is, alas, debatable). > inspection, the PDP-8 appears to be complete, FLIP-CHIP wise, the > PDP-8/L is enclosed but dusty, and I think the HP - which is open - > has a pretty nice loadout of cards. So going by modules I would say > all the hardware is there (save power supplies?), so what would be > needed to bring up one of those systems? > > And more importantly, would any one be interested in signing (an > online) petition to the BrockU CS Faculty to convince them to try and > restore one of their minis and their terminal back into a functional > state? I think there's a lot more (educational) value in getting the amchine running than in actually using it once it's restored. It seems to me that there's no much differnce between running a program on a real PDP8 and on an emulator, for example. But actually getting into the hardware with 'socpe and logic analyser, that will teach you a lot. I don;t know if your university would allow this, and I don't know if there's a group of enthusiasts there know to the faculty as being somewhat clueful. If so, would it be possible for you (and others) to do the restoration under some kind of supervision (to make sure you didn't electrocute yourtsleves or worse wreck the machine)? I would certianly want to encourage that sort of thing. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 8 14:26:18 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 12:26:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who will be the last HD maker down the road? In-Reply-To: References: <5D60101E9D854896A0C32DAEEECC0F85@dell8300> <4D75366B.21696.2604652@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20110308122530.D55814@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 8 Mar 2011, Richard wrote: > Flash memory is problematic for secure data. Basically, its nearly > impossible to securely erase a file from flash based disks. . . . even though it is easy to erase it beyond reasonable recovery if you didn't want to. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 15:12:03 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 16:12:03 -0500 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: References: <4D755EC3.90207@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 1:57 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> EAE was PDP-8 Yes and no. Yes, there is the Extended Arithmetic Element for the -8/i and for the KK8E (-8/e/f/m) CPUs, but the KE11, available as the KE11-A (multiple cards and "system module" (backplane) for the 11/20 and similar) and KE11-B (single M7840, for newer Unibus machines after the transition to SPCs and such), was *also* called an EAE by DEC. It's not a particularly common option for the PDP-11, so I can understand the confusion. (DEC notes from 1969 on the KE11-A) http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/memos/690613_PDP-11_EAE.pdf > Maybe I've mis-remeebred the name. There was a hex-height Unibus board > (jsut one obard) that was a hardware integer multiplier and divider. It > was used with PDP11s that didn't ahve EIS (11/04, 1/05, etc) and it > required special software support. It didn't add to the processor > instruciton set, rahter you wrote the operands to particular I/O > addreses and read the results back in the same way. Sounds like this... (from http://www.psych.usyd.edu.au/pdp-11/early_peripherals.html) "KE11 (EAE) The Extented Arithmetic Element was a unibus peripheral that implemented hardware multiply, divides, multiple shifts and fraction normalisation. It was implemented as a number of registers in the I/O page; you would write the operands into a set of eight registers. For a multiply, simply loading the multiply register would initiate the calculation. This device was mainly used on the PDP11/20 which lacked a multiply and divide instructions (as did the /04, /05 and /10. " > I am pretty sure RT11 Fortran could use it. The 1972 version of UNIX for the PDP-11/20 *required* it ( http://www.skytel.co.cr/unix-source-code/research/pups-mail/eml.1158.html ). For that reason, I've been keeping a casual eye out for either a KE11-A or -B. I can't really afford a "market-rate" KE11-B from a DEC reseller, so I haven't looked all that hard. Also, my 11/20 is still in need of a serious amount of work (it was dismantled and binned before I got it, so I have a *lot* of mechanical restoration to do before I even dig into the state of the cards). -ethan From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 16:19:20 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 16:19:20 -0600 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D76AB68.6060301@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> Tony Duell wrote: >>> What do you mean by 'hardware' multiply and divide? A number of machines, >>> I suspect the 6809 is amongst them, had no particualrl hardware for >>> multiply or divide, but they did have multiply and maybe divide >>> instrucitons in the instruction setc. These instrucitons were implemented >>> by microcode using the normal registers and ALU. Does that count? >> Yes, anything that includes a dedicated multiply or divide instruction as part >> of the instruction set; I suspect a lot of the early implementations fall into >> the "simple shift-add" that I mentioned due to the lack/cost of silicon. > > What do you mean by 'instruction set'. In particular, what do you do > about machines (PERQ, for example) that load their microocde at power-on > and thus don't have a fixed machine code instrcution set. Whatever instructions were exposed to a programmer of the machine, I suppose. I'm trying to build up a rough idea of how common is was though in systems as supplied by a vendor - so I think that user-written microcode doesn't count as such (but it's still nice to hear of systems where the user could have done it if they wanted and achieved better performance than via software routines). background: I'm revisiting a homebrew microcoded CPU that I started thinking about a few years ago (with the intention of making it predominantly from LS-TTL if I can get enough parts together). I hadn't considered hardware multiply or divide before (the intention was just to have library routines in software), but if it was relatively common on systems between the mid-70s and early-80s then maybe I'll include something. Simple shift-add multiply with unsigned integers is simple enough, but I'm thinking that if I do it at all it'd be nice for it to work with signed integers, too, so I've got some head-scratching to do :-) cheers Jules From legalize at xmission.com Tue Mar 8 16:15:40 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 15:15:40 -0700 Subject: anyone using collectiveaccess for their collections? Message-ID: Its open source (GPLv2) software for cataloging collections. Does anyone have any experience with it? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Mar 8 16:59:24 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 14:59:24 -0800 Subject: anyone using collectiveaccess for their collections? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D76B4CC.3050004@bitsavers.org> On 3/8/11 2:15 PM, Richard wrote: > Its open source (GPLv2) software for cataloging collections. From a quick look at it, it's php/mySQL based, and seems to cover all the basics of collections management and catalog exporting. Seems like a good place to start, though it appears to deal mostly with physical objects, and knows about physical pathnames in the catalog records, so that's a little dangerous. It has minimal support for digital asset management. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Mar 8 17:09:04 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 16:09:04 -0700 Subject: anyone using collectiveaccess for their collections? In-Reply-To: <4D76B4CC.3050004@bitsavers.org> References: <4D76B4CC.3050004@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4D76B4CC.3050004 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > Seems like a good place to start, though it appears to deal mostly > with physical objects, and knows about physical pathnames in the > catalog records, so that's a little dangerous. Can you elaborate on this? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this comment. > It has minimal support for digital asset management. They seem to provide a mechanism for customizing the base functionality with installation profiles. They list a bunch of installation profiles that are already created that provide metadata for digital media and other applications here: Does that cover digital asset management as you see it? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Mar 8 17:33:39 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 15:33:39 -0800 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: <4D761D95.27232.6DB469@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4D75738F.1000504@gmail.com>, <4D761D95.27232.6DB469@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2011 Mar 8, at 12:14 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 Mar 2011 at 11:56, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> Looking through the Osborne book (Introduction to Microcomputers - >> Some Real Products / 1976), here's another to add to the list: the >> MicroNova/9440 microprocessor ca 1977 had built-in 16-bit multiply and >> divide instructions. >> >> Can anyone comment on how much use or production the MicroNova or >> Fairchild 9440 chips actually saw? > > I mentioned the MicroNova. Sorry, going back to your earlier message I see that. I think I skimmed over it first time and thought of the mini rather than the microproc. You say the 9440 doesn't have M/D, the book does explicitly indicate they are present for the 9440 .. the book is in error? > If you weren't DoD-related, you could forget getting the 9440, 9445, > 9450...CPUs. Fairchild wouldn't give you the time of day on those. > > Same for the I2L versions of the TI 9900. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Mar 8 17:57:49 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 15:57:49 -0800 Subject: anyone using collectiveaccess for their collections? In-Reply-To: References: <4D76B4CC.3050004@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4D76C27D.803@bitsavers.org> On 3/8/11 3:09 PM, Richard wrote: > knows about physical pathnames in the >> catalog records, so that's a little dangerous. > > Can you elaborate on this? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by > this comment. > We ran into a problem where image paths were hardcoded with windows pathnames, which causes the OSX version of the client to fail. > Does that cover digital asset management as you see it? No, it is the issue of maintaining the integrity of the contents of a digital archive when it is stored in a normal database. When something is put into a repository, it should (in theory) be impossible to change or delete it. Working with real storage media makes this an impossibility. It should also be replicated, and all of the copies periodically verified that haven't changed. This is VERY different from the model that a normal database works under, that records are constantly created, deleted, and modified. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 8 18:14:32 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 16:14:32 -0800 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: References: , <4D761D95.27232.6DB469@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4D7655E8.5088.149B555@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Mar 2011 at 15:33, Brent Hilpert wrote: > You say the 9440 doesn't have M/D, the book does explicitly indicate > they are present for the 9440 .. the book is in error? Apparently. Take a look at Volume II's instruction set description. The MPY and DIV are listed as not being on the 9440. (They are on the later 9445). Osborne's book indicates that the 9440 supported the "basic" Nova 800 set of instructions and features. I take that to mean the features present on a "basic" Nova 800. On those, the DIV and MUL instructions were an option, so it's reasonable to speculate that the 9440 didn't have them. We could decide with some certainty if a 9440 datasheet could be found. --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 18:34:10 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 18:34:10 -0600 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs (6809) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D76CB02.7000902@gmail.com> Mark Tapley wrote: > At 23:56 -0600 3/7/11, Jules wrote: >> Yes, that seems to be the 'famous' one that gets mentioned everywhere. It >> seems it was of the shift-add variety. Anyone recall if it would work >> with >> signed integers? (I'm just trying to work out how the math works for >> signed >> multiplies at the moment) > > I have a scanned .pdf of the 6809 programmer's manual here, happy to > send out if anyone wants it, but it's 12.8 MBytes. (I got it from the > freescale website, since reorganized; it's online at > http://www.maddes.net/m6809pm/ .) > > It says the MUL instruction A x B -> D (unsigned) takes 11 MPU > cycles. ADD instructions take a minimum of 2 cycles, as do shift (roll, > etc) instructions. So I think maybe there must have been some silicon > (vs. microcode) involved in the multiply? I don't see how the shift-add > sequence could be done in only 11 cycles. I see what you mean - I wonder if the actual add only takes one cycle, but there's an additional 1-cycle overhead (none of the instructions seem to be less than 2 cycles) which doesn't scale to 8 shifts/adds needed for an 8-bit multiply? That would make sense, I think - 8 cycles of shifts/adds, standard 1 cycle overhead, and 2 more cycles eaten up doing housekeeping "stuff". cheers Jules From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Mar 8 18:53:30 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 16:53:30 -0800 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: <4D7655E8.5088.149B555@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4D761D95.27232.6DB469@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D7655E8.5088.149B555@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2011 Mar 8, at 4:14 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 Mar 2011 at 15:33, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> You say the 9440 doesn't have M/D, the book does explicitly indicate >> they are present for the 9440 .. the book is in error? > > Apparently. Take a look at Volume II's instruction set description. > The MPY and DIV are listed as not being on the 9440. (They are on the > later 9445). Osborne's book indicates that the 9440 supported the > "basic" Nova 800 set of instructions and features. I wonder if you have a later printing of Volume II than I have here. I do see near the beginning it states the 9440 implements only 'the LCD of Nova features', but on page 17-20 in the instruction table there are X's for the M/D instructions in the 9440 column. On page 17-15 it says X in the column indicates the instruction is present. The stack operations listed next have no X, indicating they are missing on the 9440. > I take that to mean the features present on a "basic" Nova 800. On > those, the DIV and MUL instructions were an option, so it's > reasonable to speculate that the 9440 didn't have them. > > We could decide with some certainty if a 9440 datasheet could be > found. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 8 19:00:43 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 17:00:43 -0800 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: References: , <4D7655E8.5088.149B555@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4D7660BB.28594.174001D@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Mar 2011 at 16:53, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I wonder if you have a later printing of Volume II than I have here. I > do see near the beginning it states the 9440 implements only 'the LCD > of Nova features', but on page 17-20 in the instruction table there > are X's for the M/D instructions in the 9440 column. On page 17-15 it > says X in the column indicates the instruction is present. The stack > operations listed next have no X, indicating they are missing on the > 9440. I'm working from the June, 1977 edition. In this one, it's on page 17- 44 and there are no "x" marks in the 9440 column for MPY and DIV. --Chuck From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Mar 8 19:33:38 2011 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 17:33:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Digital archiving tools Message-ID: <759970.91950.qm@web82604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Many of us maintain large collections of bits that we'd like to preserve over a long time, and distribute, replicate, and migrate via unreliable storage media and networks. As disk sizes (and archive sizes) have increased, the probability of corruption undetected or uncorrected by the mechanisms normally built into disk drives, network protocols, and filesystems has increased to a level that warrants great concern. I would be interested to know if there exists an archive format that has the following desirable properties: 1) It is well-documented, and relatively simple, to facilitate its implementation on many platforms present and future. 2) It supports some degree of incremental updating, but need not be particularly efficient about it. An explicit compaction operation is preferable to an overly complex format. It is adequate to use append-only strategies appropriate for write-once media. 3) Insertion and extraction of files, copying of the archives, and other archive-manipulation utilities support end-to-end verification that identical bits have been stably recorded to the media, bypassing or defeating platform-level or hardware-level caching mechanisms. Where this is not possible, the limits must be carefully delineated, with some basis for determining the properties of the platform and certifying reliability properties where possible. 4) The format should provide for superior error detection capability, designed to avoid common failure modes with mechanisms typically used in hardware. For example, use a document-level cryptographic checksum rather than a block-level CRC. 5) The format should include a high degree of internal redundancy and recoverability, say, along the lines of a virtual RAID-array. Just as biological organisms constantly correct DNA transcription errors, the idea is to have a format that is robust across long-term exposure to imperfect copying and transmission channels. Does anything like this exist? --Bill From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Mar 8 19:53:45 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 20:53:45 -0500 Subject: Digital archiving tools Message-ID: What you want, for goals #1 through #3, are simply disk and tape images, as commonly used with all the major simulators/emulators and tools. #4 and #5 are not part of the disk and tape images themselves, but you layer on top with checksums (Aka md5sum's) and geographically diverse storage networks etc. It's important not to confuse the image, with the media on which the image may currently be residing. A well-thought out image container format will outlast many generations of media. (And indeed have; RT-11 Logical Disk containers have existed since the 70's, and DECUS TPC-style tape images for nearly that long). This is why #1-#3 have to be decoupled from #4 and #5. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 8 19:54:47 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 17:54:47 -0800 Subject: Who will be the last HD maker down the road? In-Reply-To: References: <5D60101E9D854896A0C32DAEEECC0F85@dell8300> <4D75366B.21696.2604652@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D76DDE7.2030401@brouhaha.com> On 03/08/2011 10:15 AM, Richard wrote: > Flash memory is problematic for secure data. Basically, its nearly > impossible to securely erase a file from flash based disks. That used to be true, but is not any longer. These days most drives, both flash and rotating, implement "secure erase" commands which tell the drive's embedded controller to erase not just the logical blocks, but also any spared-out blocks that may contain residual user data. Of course, for classified data and any other data that needs to be secure from even extremely well-funded adversaries (i.e., intelligence agencies), physical destruction is still the only satisfactory erasure method. But telling the flash drive to do a secure erase should be good enough to keep even the commercial data recovery companies from being able to extract your credit card numbers, etc. Of course, there's no guarantee that the vendor implemented the secure erase correctly, just as there is no guarantee that they've implemented anything else correctly. You have to judge for yourself how valuable the information you're trying to erase is, and base your decision on that. Eric From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Mar 8 19:55:47 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 17:55:47 -0800 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: <4D7660BB.28594.174001D@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4D7655E8.5088.149B555@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D7660BB.28594.174001D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1f944460103c92e015c805f2a7e16949@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Mar 8, at 5:00 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 Mar 2011 at 16:53, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> I wonder if you have a later printing of Volume II than I have here. I >> do see near the beginning it states the 9440 implements only 'the LCD >> of Nova features', but on page 17-20 in the instruction table there >> are X's for the M/D instructions in the 9440 column. On page 17-15 it >> says X in the column indicates the instruction is present. The stack >> operations listed next have no X, indicating they are missing on the >> 9440. > > I'm working from the June, 1977 edition. In this one, it's on page 17- > 44 and there are no "x" marks in the 9440 column for MPY and DIV. > Interesting, Copyright 1976 edition here, no other printing dates. There is no page 17-44 in this edition. I guess somebody observed an error in this edition and corrected it, or perhaps Fairchild's preliminary design hope didn't make it to production. A little arcania.. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 8 20:06:56 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 18:06:56 -0800 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: <4D761D95.27232.6DB469@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4D75738F.1000504@gmail.com>, <4D761D95.27232.6DB469@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D76E0C0.8070306@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > If you weren't DoD-related, you could forget getting the 9440, 9445, > 9450...CPUs. Fairchild wouldn't give you the time of day on those. Not true, at least going by my conversations with distributors at the time. They were sold through normal commercial distribution, to anyone willing to purchase the minimum order quantity, which was around 30 parts if memory serves. Since they were rather expensive parts, that didn't include me. Since the 9450 implemented the MIL-STD-1750A architecture, obviously the main customers were defense contractors and their subcontractors, but a friend who worked for a commercial avionics company said that they used it in some non-defense products as well. That suggests that the 9450 pricing was sufficiently reasonable that if you had a 1750A codebase that you wanted to use in a commercial product, it was viable to use the 9450. The Fairchild Nova-compatible parts might have seen more non-military use than the 9450, but I don't have even anecdotal evidence of that. > Same for the I2L versions of the TI 9900. Like the Fairchild parts, the SBP9900 was sold through distribution. It appeared in TI's OEM price list, though I don't recall the price. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 8 23:56:05 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 21:56:05 -0800 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: <1f944460103c92e015c805f2a7e16949@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <4D7660BB.28594.174001D@cclist.sydex.com>, <1f944460103c92e015c805f2a7e16949@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4D76A5F5.8194.28294DA@cclist.sydex.com> Add to the list, the Fairchild FST-1--curiously, both multiply and divide run at the same speed: 25 cycles. --Chuck P.S. Thanks Al, for putting the FST info up on bitsavers! While too late for the job, it did a lot to satisfy my curiosity. Turns out that I guessed a few machine opcodes correctly. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 9 00:00:47 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 22:00:47 -0800 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: <4D76E0C0.8070306@brouhaha.com> References: , <4D761D95.27232.6DB469@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D76E0C0.8070306@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4D76A70F.30078.286E24B@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Mar 2011 at 18:06, Eric Smith wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > If you weren't DoD-related, you could forget getting the 9440, > 9445, > 9450...CPUs. Fairchild wouldn't give you the time of day on > those. > > Not true, at least going by my conversations with distributors at the > time. They were sold through normal commercial distribution, to > anyone willing to purchase the minimum order quantity, which was > around 30 parts if memory serves. Since they were rather expensive > parts, that didn't include me. We were buying 8085s and later, 80186s by at least Q500, so we should have been prime candidates. Since our application data base was pretty much all DG BASIC, it would have made life a lot simpler. But try as I might, I never could get any followup from the Fairchild guys. I'm not aware of any retail or hobbyist boxes of the time that used either the 9440 or the SBP9900, are you? Contrast that with a few boxes constructed on the IM6100. Of course, Bill Davidow would never have put his stamp of approval on the use of anything but Intel silicon. --Chuck From bqt at softjar.se Tue Mar 8 05:13:02 2011 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 12:13:02 +0100 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D760F3E.8010406@softjar.se> On 03/07/11 23:57, allison wrote: > EAE was PDP-8 Actually, Tony is totally correct. There was an EAE for the PDP-11 as well, and it is a Unibus device, with a few registers in floating space. You load some of them with the arguments, and then read out the result at another register a little later. It was produced before the EIS came about, and probably only sold with the 11/20 and 11/15. But it should work on any Unibus machine. > The PDP11 series had multiple implementations including the FPP (2901 based) > and the FIS for the 11/23cpu (F11). The 11/44 had a FPU that used a carload > of 2901s. FIS first came on the 11/40. The same opcode space was then reused for the FPP on the 11/45 and onwards. 11/23 never had FIS, but the 11/03 did. 11/23 had an optional FPP chip, however (and CIS). In fact, the only two machines to have FIS was the 11/40 and 11/03 (and I know the 11/35 as well, but that is just a derivative of the 11/40). Why the 11/03 got FIS is beyond me, but maybe they didn't have enough transistors to implement the FPP, but wanted something, and reused that design instead, since you at least have some software that supports it. I'm pretty sure the FIS for 11/03 was an option, though, and not included in every machine. The FIS for the 11/40 definitely was. As far as integer multiply/divide goes, the 11/40 had EIS as well, but it was optional. Just like FIS. Johnny From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 8 14:22:49 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 12:22:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: 2" floppy disks (Zenith Minisport laptop) Message-ID: <71169.94987.qm@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hi, I've had 2 of these for a while. Took a gander at one of them last night, and lo and behold, there was a disk in 1. Depressing the button did nothing to free the disk, so I too pliers and yanked it out. It was a thing of beauty. Unfortunately though the platter was all mangled up. Ok. Took the thing apart and the substrate or whatever the h* measured maybe a hair over .001" using a cheap caliper (won't mention country of origin). Took apart a 3 1/2" disk and it's platter measured about .003". Became feverish and measured a video tape and it was oh .00075". I'm aware that the oxides used differs on different media. But, and I realize there's a discrepancy in the thickness, but are the platters used in a 3 1/2" disk compatible w/the 2" standard. These things are just so friggin cute, I'd like to see them running again. I doubt anyone is manufacturing 2" disks out there. And incidentally does anyone know what computers used the Fujitsu M2551a 5 1/4" floppy drive? Something tells me it may have been used in the AT & T 6300/Olivetti?/Xerox? units, but I'm not sure. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 8 17:57:37 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 15:57:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: need Radio Electronics from 1980 Message-ID: <44866.83414.qm@web65513.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> not sure if the Unicorn-1 robot series went beyond 1980. I need all of them regardless. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 9 03:50:53 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 01:50:53 -0800 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: <4D76A70F.30078.286E24B@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4D761D95.27232.6DB469@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D76E0C0.8070306@brouhaha.com> <4D76A70F.30078.286E24B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D774D7D.7040803@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'm not aware of any retail or hobbyist boxes of the time that used > either the 9440 or the SBP9900, are you? No, but then there weren't many hobbyist boxes using the PPS-8, F100-L, PACE, IMP-16, WD16/MCP1600, LP8000, or iAPX-432 either. The conclusion I reach is simply that obscure microprocessors that had a relatively poor price/performance ratio saw little hobbyist use. > Contrast that with a few boxes constructed on the IM6100. The IM6100 wasn't nearly as expensive as the 9440, and there was more public-domain PDP-8 software than public-domain Nova software. Eric From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Mar 9 04:17:43 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 11:17:43 +0100 (CET) Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Mar 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> * mainframe, mini, micro; I'm not picky. I'm more interested in building up a >> picture of how widespread hardware support was, and the various approaches >> that designers used. > > What do you mean by 'hardware' multiply and divide? A number of machines, > I suspect the 6809 is amongst them, had no particualrl hardware for > multiply or divide, but they did have multiply and maybe divide > instrucitons in the instruction setc. These instrucitons were implemented > by microcode using the normal registers and ALU. Does that count? I'd say no, microcode is software. Looking at our own collection, the LGP-30 implements multiply and divide in hardware, as well as e.g. the Diehl Combitron (designed around 1965). The last one is particularly interesting as its word length is 55 bits but the number of significant result bits is variable, depending on the given number of R delay line cycles. Multiplication is shift+add, division is shift and substract/add (depending on the sign of the previous remainder). This all is done in HW with just a hand full of flip-flops (in the whole processor!). Christian From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Mar 9 05:52:51 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 06:52:51 -0500 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs Message-ID: > background: I'm revisiting a homebrew microcoded CPU that I started > thinking about a few years ago (with the intention of making it > predominantly from LS-TTL if I can get enough parts together). I hadn't > considered hardware multiply or divide before (the intention was just to > have library routines in software), but if it was relatively common on > systems between the mid-70s and early-80s then maybe I'll include > something. Simple shift-add multiply with unsigned integers is simple > enough, but I'm thinking that if I do it at all it'd be nice for it to work > with signed integers, too, so I've got some head-scratching to do :-) As to "common", if your CPU starts looking like a 68000 or 8086, then you'll probably have both signed and unsigned multiply and divide. (I think the original x86 had some instructions to assist with BCD multiply?) 68000 or 80x86 hardly seem like clever minimal instruction sets today... and for a long time those implementing CPU designs have tended towards RISC. e.g. PA-RISC was in production from 1986 through 2008, was a high performance micro, and had no hardware multiply. If you're looking for a good model for implementing in 74xx series logic, keep in mind that in 1986, HP was selling their new workstation, the HP 9000 840, which had its CPU largely implemented in 74F series logic (I think there were some PAL's etc. but my memory fades). IMHO unsigned multiply will usually be most appropriate for the bit twiddling a micro has to do. BUT... if you're gonna do Fortran benchmarks, you probably want signed multiply. (This is a sore point when it comes to implementing bit-twiddling multiplies in Fortran. Understandable because Fortran was designed around ones-complement processors.) Tim. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 07:26:41 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 07:26:41 -0600 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D778011.2050607@gmail.com> Christian Corti wrote: > On Mon, 7 Mar 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >>> * mainframe, mini, micro; I'm not picky. I'm more interested in >>> building up a >>> picture of how widespread hardware support was, and the various >>> approaches >>> that designers used. >> >> What do you mean by 'hardware' multiply and divide? A number of machines, >> I suspect the 6809 is amongst them, had no particualrl hardware for >> multiply or divide, but they did have multiply and maybe divide >> instrucitons in the instruction setc. These instrucitons were implemented >> by microcode using the normal registers and ALU. Does that count? > > I'd say no, microcode is software. Maybe that depends on the complexity of the microcode sequencer and whether the microcode itself is able to do loops and branches? All the outside world sees is a hardware interface, though, so either way I'd still class it as hardware from that point of view. As I mentioned to Tony though, I'm really interested in CPUs that supported multiply/divide "out of the box" - needing to change the microcode or add a math copro don't count, even if once added they were transparent to the programmer. cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 07:40:46 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 07:40:46 -0600 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D77835E.7030205@gmail.com> Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> background: I'm revisiting a homebrew microcoded CPU that I started >> thinking about a few years ago (with the intention of making it >> predominantly from LS-TTL if I can get enough parts together). I hadn't >> considered hardware multiply or divide before (the intention was just to >> have library routines in software), but if it was relatively common on >> systems between the mid-70s and early-80s then maybe I'll include >> something. Simple shift-add multiply with unsigned integers is simple >> enough, but I'm thinking that if I do it at all it'd be nice for it to work >> with signed integers, too, so I've got some head-scratching to do :-) > > As to "common", if your CPU starts looking like a 68000 or 8086, then you'll > probably have both signed and unsigned multiply and divide. Yes, as I mentioned to Richard, I always forget just how early the 68k was, given the feature-rich nature of the design. I wonder if it was still shift-add or did something more complex. > (I think the original x86 had some instructions to assist with BCD multiply?) Hmm, possibly. Hazy memory of something like that in later x86, but I don't recall if it was in the early ones. > e.g. PA-RISC was in production from 1986 through 2008, was a high performance > micro, and had no hardware multiply. If you're looking for a good model for > implementing in 74xx series logic, keep in mind that in 1986, HP was selling their > new workstation, the HP 9000 840, which had its CPU largely implemented in 74F > series logic (I think there were some PAL's etc. but my memory fades). That's a useful one to know about! Was it a microcoded design, or was the instruction decoding more logic-based? (which might explain the PALs!) > IMHO unsigned multiply will usually be most appropriate for the bit twiddling > a micro has to do. BUT... if you're gonna do Fortran benchmarks, you > probably want signed multiply. (This is a sore point when it comes to > implementing bit-twiddling multiplies in Fortran. Understandable because > Fortran was designed around ones-complement processors.) That's also useful. Booth's algorithm for signed numbers doesn't look too bad - but unsigned multiply is a lot easier :-) I suspect that when it comes to it I'll build everything around eurocards, as I have a few 16-slot 64w eurocard backplanes in storage. The way it's looking at the moment, I'll have a spare input to the ALU's output mux, so perhaps I'll expose one of those to at least a couple of slots on the backplane (along with ALU A and B input paths) and can then add the logic for hardware mul/div later on. cheers Jules From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Mar 9 08:21:09 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 09:21:09 -0500 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs Message-ID: >> [HP PA-RISC in 9000 840 done in TTL] > That's a useful one to know about! Was it a microcoded design, or was the > instruction decoding more logic-based? (which might explain the PALs!) I'm not enough of a PA-RISC conniseur to claim that there's nothing like microcode In there but... PA-RISC was a very consciously RISC effort. Shift-and-add instructions are part of the PA-RISC instruction set. Deragatory remarks from CISCy folks complained that PA-RISC instructions were in fact microcode :-). Some block diagrams are in the CE handbook at http://bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/9000_800/ According to openpa.net, they did a lot of good stuff with just 150 chips. I contrast with other minis of the 70's and early 80's which did much less with many more chips. From openpa.net: The TS-1 was the first PA-RISC production processor, introduced in 1986. It integrated version 1.0 of PA-RISC on six boards (each 8.4?11.3?) of TTL. Details: PA-RISC version 1.0 32-bit Three-stage pipeline The CPU consists of six separate boards: I-unit: the Instruction Unit Register File Board, contains general and control registers E-unit: the Execution Unit TLB, the translation lookaside buffer with 4096 entries for 2?KB pages Cache controller with split instruction and data caches ? 64?KB for each I and D FPC, the floating-point coprocessor, handles FP operations parallel to the CPU/ALU (the ADD/MUL/DIV chip was taken over from the HP 9000/550 FOCUS system) 4096-entry TLB off-chip, direct-mapped Off-chip L1 cache of 128?KB (I/D) direct-mapped/one-way associative Physical address space of 27-bit (128?MB main memory could be addressed) 8?MHz clock speed Six (some sources say five) printed circuit boards, implemented in FAST TTL and (25ns and 35ns) SRAMs/PALs, which each about 150 ICs Tim. From rickb at bensene.com Wed Mar 9 09:03:08 2011 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 07:03:08 -0800 Subject: Microcode .vs. Hardware (Was: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Christian wrote: > I'd say no, microcode is software... > the Diehl Combitron (designed around 1965). The last one is particularly > interesting as its word length is 55 bits but the number of significant > result bits is variable, depending on the given number of R delay line > cycles. Multiplication is shift+add, division is shift and > substract/add > (depending on the sign of the previous remainder). This all is done in > HW > with just a hand full of flip-flops (in the whole processor!). > I thought that the Combitron was largely a microcoded machine, with the microcode read into a delay line from a punched metal tape at startup. The Combitron was designed by Stanley Frankel, who also designed the LGP-30, the SCM/Marchant Cogito calculator, and a number of other small computing devices. I had a phone conversation with Allan Frankel, son of Stanley, and learned a lot about the machine and its history. Allan helped his father construct the prototype of what became the Combitron in their home. Based on what Allan explained to me, the operation of the machine was controlled pretty much entirely by the "firmware" loaded in at power-up when the tape is read in. The low count of flip flops would follow in such a design, as a small number of flip flops are only needed to store state information, and a few for holding temporary microcode operation code information, and a few more for buffering data circulating through the delay line(s). There are more suitable examples of hardware multiply/divide (and square root) in some other early electronic calculators, though some that might be thought to have hardware implementations are actually microcoded in a sense. For example, the Sharp Compet 20 uses a sequencer with a diode ROM with feedback to control its operation. Early calculators from Friden, Casio, IME and Canon tended to be hard wired designs that implemented the multiply/divide logic with a lot of gating and various simple state machines. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Mar 9 09:31:34 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 07:31:34 -0800 Subject: Microcode .vs. Hardware (Was: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs) In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: > Subject: Microcode .vs. Hardware (Was: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs) > Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 07:03:08 -0800 > From: rickb at bensene.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Christian wrote: > > I'd say no, microcode is software... > > the Diehl Combitron (designed around 1965). The last one is > particularly > > interesting as its word length is 55 bits but the number of > significant > > result bits is variable, depending on the given number of R delay line > > cycles. Multiplication is shift+add, division is shift and > > substract/add > > (depending on the sign of the previous remainder). This all is done in > > HW > > with just a hand full of flip-flops (in the whole processor!). > > > > I thought that the Combitron was largely a microcoded machine, with the > microcode read into a delay line from a punched metal tape at startup. > > The Combitron was designed by Stanley Frankel, who also designed the > LGP-30, the SCM/Marchant Cogito calculator, and a number of other small > computing devices. I had a phone conversation with Allan Frankel, son > of Stanley, and learned a lot about the machine and its history. Allan > helped his father construct the prototype of what became the Combitron > in their home. Based on what Allan explained to me, the operation of > the machine was controlled pretty much entirely by the "firmware" loaded > in at power-up when the tape is read in. The low count of flip flops > would follow in such a design, as a small number of flip flops are only > needed to store state information, and a few for holding temporary > microcode operation code information, and a few more for buffering data > circulating through the delay line(s). > > There are more suitable examples of hardware multiply/divide (and square > root) in some other early electronic calculators, though some that might > be thought to have hardware implementations are actually microcoded in a > sense. For example, the Sharp Compet 20 uses a sequencer with a diode > ROM with feedback to control its operation. > > Early calculators from Friden, Casio, IME and Canon tended to be hard > wired designs that implemented the multiply/divide logic with a lot of > gating and various simple state machines. > > Rick Bensene > The Old Calculator Museum > http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > Hi If anyone comes across a Diehl Combiton or a SCM marchant Cogito and doesn't want it laying around, I'd love to have one. I fiddle with on when I was working for the University of Miami. I used it to run data from paleotemperature stuff and C14 dating stuff. I never had any external storage. I can recall if it was tape of punch cards. It was all hand wired transistors as I recall. All packet into the box. It had two delay lines, one for data and the other for program. I recall cleaning the photo cell that was used on powerup. It had a two hole metal tape. One the clock and the other the data. I never did figure out how it coordinated the delay line with the tape. The tape didn't seem to have any speed control. Dwight Dwight From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 9 11:47:57 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 10:47:57 -0700 Subject: anyone using collectiveaccess for their collections? In-Reply-To: <4D76C27D.803@bitsavers.org> References: <4D76B4CC.3050004@bitsavers.org> <4D76C27D.803@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4D76C27D.803 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > On 3/8/11 3:09 PM, Richard wrote: > > knows about physical pathnames in the > >> catalog records, so that's a little dangerous. > > > > Can you elaborate on this? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by > > this comment. > > > > We ran into a problem where image paths were hardcoded with windows pathnames, > which causes the OSX version of the client to fail. Was this encountered while using CollectiveAccess? > > Does that cover digital asset management as you see it? > > No, it is the issue of maintaining the integrity of the contents of a digital archive > when it is stored in a normal database. > > When something is put into a repository, it should (in theory) be impossible to change > or delete it. Working with real storage media makes this an impossibility. > > It should also be replicated, and all of the copies periodically verified tha t haven't changed. > > This is VERY different from the model that a normal database works under, tha t records > are constantly created, deleted, and modified. OK, so if I understand you correctly, you're talking about maintaining an audit trail for every digital media item entered into the collection? Sort of like a source code control system where code is never really "deleted" because you can go back in the history and recover it? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 9 12:05:05 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 10:05:05 -0800 Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: <759970.91950.qm@web82604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <759970.91950.qm@web82604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D77C151.90005@bitsavers.org> On 3/8/11 5:33 PM, William Maddox wrote: > Does anything like this exist? > As Tim already said, the short answer is 'no', and this is a huge problem for me/CHM I made a decision a long time ago that the primary mode of storage would either be media images or uncompressed archive files (tar, or uncompressed zip, mostly). I have thousands of container files, containing millions of files. Not all of them were imaged by me, many have unverified or even unknown contents. Not all of the provenance is known. I have been generating them much faster than they can be verified or indexed, since I have been racing against the clock to get data off of media while it still can be read. I have two problems, making sure that the containers don't suffer bit rot (currently in the terabytes), and getting them cataloged and verified. There are two very different data sets involved, one that MUST remain invariant, and the second which changes constantly as information about the first are added. The preservation of the first is somewhat simpler, since it is known to not be changing you can use an MD5 or some other mechanism over it and take advantage of the fact that bits are easy to copy to make redundant images of it and spread the images over geographic locations. The problem then, is not to lose the connection between the invariant containers of data, and the description of it, stored either as flat files or in a database. One key can be the MD5 of the container, but this doesn't take care of the case where you have redundant images from different sources (although if they are logically 'the same', does it matter?). Getting back to your problem, the first thing to think about is separating the 'archive' from the data that describes it. As Richard has discovered, there are lots of catalog systems, some open, some not, for describing the contents of an archive. Archivists are good at this, they have been dealing with archives on paper for a long, long time. What they aren't very good at (yet) is managing a resource which can't just be put into archival boxes, placed into a climate controlled environment and 'forgotten'. One of the few good things about our ephemeral digital blobs of data, though, is they are easy to copy (though the time and CPU resources to do so is a non-trivial problem) and we take take advantage of the fact that writable mass-storage prices keep going down. So, the first thing to think about is really getting a handle on what you have in your collection of bits. Do you know their provenance, what is in the containers (format type, validity, etc.) and come up with some identification scheme where you can link these invariant containers to the descriptive system to locate and describe them. -- hope that helps And, if someone does know of a system that is available that can do this, I'd love to hear about it. I keep thinking this is a business opportunity for someone, except for the fact that archives never have any money :-( From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 9 12:15:25 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 10:15:25 -0800 Subject: National Software Reference Library Message-ID: <4D77C3BD.2030605@bitsavers.org> http://www.nsrl.nist.gov/Project_Overview.htm for an example of a large (about 18 million unique sums) database of file hashes It is interesting that they don't claim that they are all valid files, just that they have a hash and a file/path name from a known source From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 9 12:18:47 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 11:18:47 -0700 Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: <4D77C151.90005@bitsavers.org> References: <759970.91950.qm@web82604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4D77C151.90005@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4D77C151.90005 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > [good explanation of the problems facing digital archiving of "bits"] > > And, if someone does know of a system that is available that can do this, > I'd love to hear about it. I keep thinking this is a business opportunity > for someone, except for the fact that archives never have any money :-( Now that I understand the problem better (thanks much for this explanation, BTW), I think the better approach is to extend an existing open source catalog system like CollectiveAccess. It would probably have to be the work of one person to remain coherent. There isn't enough real contributors in this community for us to pursue the "wisdom of crowds" type development model. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 9 12:19:44 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 11:19:44 -0700 Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: <4D77C151.90005@bitsavers.org> References: <759970.91950.qm@web82604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4D77C151.90005@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4D77C151.90005 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > I made a decision a long time ago that the primary mode of storage would > either be media images or uncompressed archive files (tar, or uncompressed > zip, mostly). Just out of curiosity: why uncompressed? Is it so that localized corruption of the archives doesn't preclude extraction of the remaining contents? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 9 12:22:23 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 10:22:23 -0800 Subject: anyone using collectiveaccess for their collections? In-Reply-To: References: <4D76B4CC.3050004@bitsavers.org> <4D76C27D.803@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4D77C55F.5040008@bitsavers.org> On 3/9/11 9:47 AM, Richard wrote: > In article<4D76C27D.803 at bitsavers.org>, > Al Kossow writes: > >> On 3/8/11 3:09 PM, Richard wrote: >>> knows about physical pathnames in the >>>> catalog records, so that's a little dangerous. >>> >>> Can you elaborate on this? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by >>> this comment. >>> >> >> We ran into a problem where image paths were hardcoded with windows pathnames, >> which causes the OSX version of the client to fail. > > Was this encountered while using CollectiveAccess? > No, this was with Mimsy, the system CHM uses. I just pointed this out to note that not all clients deal with pathnames the same way and it might be a problem if someone would use this in a heterogeneous environment. > OK, so if I understand you correctly, you're talking about maintaining > an audit trail for every digital media item entered into the > collection? > > Sort of like a source code control system where code is never really > "deleted" because you can go back in the history and recover it? Not quite. Once entered into a digital repository, the contents of the 'blob' never changes, so you can use this fact to verify what it contains is invariant by recomputing the check mechanism (MD5, etc.) and making sure they match on all known copies. For more details, see my last message. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 9 12:23:43 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 10:23:43 -0800 Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: References: <759970.91950.qm@web82604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4D77C151.90005@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4D77C5AF.8030400@bitsavers.org> On 3/9/11 10:19 AM, Richard wrote: > In article<4D77C151.90005 at bitsavers.org>, > Al Kossow writes: > >> I made a decision a long time ago that the primary mode of storage would >> either be media images or uncompressed archive files (tar, or uncompressed >> zip, mostly). > > Just out of curiosity: why uncompressed? > > Is it so that localized corruption of the archives doesn't preclude > extraction of the remaining contents? exactly. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 9 12:25:32 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 10:25:32 -0800 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: <4D774D7D.7040803@brouhaha.com> References: , <4D76A70F.30078.286E24B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D774D7D.7040803@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4D77559C.9816.477A08@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Mar 2011 at 1:50, Eric Smith wrote: > No, but then there weren't many hobbyist boxes using the PPS-8, > F100-L, PACE, IMP-16, WD16/MCP1600, LP8000, or iAPX-432 either. The > conclusion I reach is simply that obscure microprocessors that had a > relatively poor price/performance ratio saw little hobbyist use. Well, the CP1600/1610 saw considerable use in video games (Intellivision). It never was very fast and had some rather odd characteristics, such as a 10-bit instruction word (the upper 6 bits DB mode) weren't used, even though the memory interface was 16 bits. The iAPX-432 was essentially dead a-borning. I remember the Intel sales guy mentioning it a couple of times as the Next Big Thing, then later pushing the discussion to the 8086 as if I'd brought up an unsavory relative. And it was HUGELY expensive, by the time you got the entire chipset (ca. $1000 IIRC). I don't believe it ever saw deployment in any commercial product (I could be wrong, but I never saw one that used it, other than Intel's own development system). National couldn't get the PACE off the ground--it was 16-bit, slow, and took its own bus interface chips.. By the time you were done, you had something that ran about as fast as an 8085, used MOS- interface support chips and required 3 supplies and was far more awkward to program. I got my PACE at a Wescon show where National was having trouble giving the things away. Not to mention National's somewhat capricious support attitude toward their microprocessor line. There may have been a hobbyist system that used the PACE or it's successor; I'm not sure. It was probably embedded in a few consumer/commercial products. The IMP-16 may have seen deployment in a minor hobbyist system, but its real value was as an embedded processor in things such as Sun auotomotive analyzers. As a hobbyist system, it probably was a bit daunting, being a multi-chip, microprogrammed CPU. The same story applies to the PPS-8. I believe that Diablo used the set in its dot matrix printer. It was also widely used in some arcade games as well as in automotive applications. So it found plenty of deployment in the consumer market. What piece of commercial non-military gear used the 9440? I remember when I was talking with the Fairchild rep, he kep trying to steer me toward the F8. It was frustrating. --Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Mar 9 12:23:01 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 12:23:01 -0600 Subject: anyone using collectiveaccess for their collections? In-Reply-To: References: <4D76B4CC.3050004@bitsavers.org> <4D76C27D.803@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <201103091828.p29ISdff090465@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 11:47 AM 3/9/2011, Richard wrote: >Al Kossow writes: >> We ran into a problem where image paths were hardcoded with windows pathnames, >> which causes the OSX version of the client to fail. > >Was this encountered while using CollectiveAccess? Yes, this puzzled me, too. You'd think this would've been a primary consideration of any design. I've added CA to my get-around-to-it list, as it looks interesting enough to solve my own organization problems as well as that of the local historical society. I'd like to see how it handles the intranet and Internet sides of its interface. I'd like to see how it handles storage - are all files expected to be under a particular folder from the perspective of which server? Can objects be distributed? Offline? >Sort of like a source code control system where code is never really >"deleted" because you can go back in the history and recover it? I'd be happy with verification and an audit trail. - John From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 9 12:41:30 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 11:41:30 -0700 Subject: anyone using collectiveaccess for their collections? In-Reply-To: <4D77C55F.5040008@bitsavers.org> References: <4D76B4CC.3050004@bitsavers.org> <4D76C27D.803@bitsavers.org> <4D77C55F.5040008@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4D77C55F.5040008 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > >> We ran into a problem where image paths were hardcoded with windows pathna mes, > >> which causes the OSX version of the client to fail. > > > > Was this encountered while using CollectiveAccess? > > > > No, this was with Mimsy, the system CHM uses. I just pointed this out to note that not all > clients deal with pathnames the same way and it might be a problem if someone would use > this in a heterogeneous environment. OK, I'll keep an eye out for this with CA. I'm going to start experimenting with CollectiveAccess. When I was at the Living Computer Museum, Rich Alderson mentioned a program called PastPerfect. I looked at it and the vendor lock-in feel to it put me off. Plus it costs money and only ran on Windows. CA is a web application, so I can leverage data backup plans from a web hosting service instead of having to maintain my own backups. Also, being an open source PHP application I can host it on classiccmp.org for minimal expense. With an open source PHP application I have the option of contributing extnesions that address problems in the vintage computing domain and share them with others. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 9 12:45:22 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 11:45:22 -0700 Subject: anyone using collectiveaccess for their collections? In-Reply-To: <201103091828.p29ISdff090465@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <4D76B4CC.3050004@bitsavers.org> <4D76C27D.803@bitsavers.org> <201103091828.p29ISdff090465@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: In article <201103091828.p29ISdff090465 at billY.EZWIND.NET>, John Foust writes: > I'd like to see how [CollectiveAccess] handles the intranet and > Internet sides of its interface. >From what I've read so far, it appears that both sides use the same database and are different web applications. There also appears to be a user/role facility so that you can manage who can do what with the database. They also use this in some extensions to integrate into social networking sites, i.e. once logged in a user can 'like' something into a social network like facebook, or can create their own personal collections from stuff in your catalog, possibly even extending the catalog with their own items. I think I'm going to build out a cheap linux box at home for experimenting with all this stuff in an environment where I have total control. Then once I'm confident in what I'd like, I'm going to deploy to classiccmp.org. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 9 12:52:24 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 10:52:24 -0800 Subject: anyone using collectiveaccess for their collections? In-Reply-To: References: <4D76B4CC.3050004@bitsavers.org> <4D76C27D.803@bitsavers.org> <4D77C55F.5040008@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4D77CC68.7000309@bitsavers.org> On 3/9/11 10:41 AM, Richard wrote: > Also, being an open source PHP > application I can host it on classiccmp.org for minimal expense. With > an open source PHP application I have the option of contributing > extnesions that address problems in the vintage computing domain and > share them with others. Seems like a good starting point for classiccmp hosted collections databases in the future. I assume they already deal with public/private visibility of collection assets. You should check with Jay, though on the backup policies on classiccmp before starting any major projects there, though. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 9 13:05:13 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 12:05:13 -0700 Subject: anyone using collectiveaccess for their collections? In-Reply-To: <4D77CC68.7000309@bitsavers.org> References: <4D76B4CC.3050004@bitsavers.org> <4D76C27D.803@bitsavers.org> <4D77C55F.5040008@bitsavers.org> <4D77CC68.7000309@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4D77CC68.7000309 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > I assume they already deal with public/private visibility of collection assets. I believe I read in their documentation that they have some support for this. > You should check with Jay, though on the backup policies on classiccmp before > starting any major projects there, though. Yep, that thought occurred to me as well. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 9 13:17:31 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 12:17:31 -0700 Subject: anyone using collectiveaccess for their collections? In-Reply-To: References: <4D76B4CC.3050004@bitsavers.org> <4D76C27D.803@bitsavers.org> <4D77C55F.5040008@bitsavers.org> <4D77CC68.7000309@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Also, the CollectiveAccess folks have a good wiki that goes into detail on a lot of these issues: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From vintagecoder at aol.com Wed Mar 9 13:46:39 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 19:46:39 +0000 Subject: Who will be the last HD maker down the road? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201103091946.p29Jkhmo021388@imr-da06.mx.aol.com> On Tue, 08 Mar 2011 18:14:38 -0600 cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > From: Richard > Subject: Re: Who will be the last HD maker down the road? > To: cctalk > Message-ID: > > > In article <4D75366B.21696.2604652 at cclist.sydex.com>, > "Chuck Guzis" writes: > > > We may be using flash both for external storage and internal storage. > > Flash memory is problematic for secure data. Basically, its nearly > impossible to securely erase a file from flash based disks. I don't know how that can be true. I can understand deleting doesn't work but is it true a simple dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdx onto the flash card doesn't fill it with zeros? And even if it doesn't, how hard is a flash card to destroy? Hard disks are tough as nails but flash memory can be snapped in two with your hands or a pair of pliers and burned... From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Mar 9 12:55:12 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 10:55:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who will be the last HD maker down the road? In-Reply-To: <201103091946.p29Jkhmo021388@imr-da06.mx.aol.com> References: <201103091946.p29Jkhmo021388@imr-da06.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Mar 2011, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > On Tue, 08 Mar 2011 18:14:38 -0600 > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > >> From: Richard >> Subject: Re: Who will be the last HD maker down the road? >> To: cctalk >> Message-ID: >> >> >> In article <4D75366B.21696.2604652 at cclist.sydex.com>, >> "Chuck Guzis" writes: >> >>> We may be using flash both for external storage and internal storage. >> >> Flash memory is problematic for secure data. Basically, its nearly >> impossible to securely erase a file from flash based disks. > > I don't know how that can be true. I can understand deleting doesn't work > but is it true a simple dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdx onto the flash card > doesn't fill it with zeros? And even if it doesn't, how hard is a flash > card to destroy? Hard disks are tough as nails but flash memory can be > snapped in two with your hands or a pair of pliers and burned... > AFAIK, the "accepted" method involves a thermite grenade. :) g . -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 9 14:06:10 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 12:06:10 -0800 Subject: Who will be the last HD maker down the road? In-Reply-To: <201103091946.p29Jkhmo021388@imr-da06.mx.aol.com> References: <201103091946.p29Jkhmo021388@imr-da06.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4D77DDB2.5030004@bitsavers.org> On 3/9/11 11:46 AM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > I don't know how that can be true. I can understand deleting doesn't work > but is it true a simple dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdx onto the flash card > doesn't fill it with zeros? From reading the papers, there are many redundant cells, and the controller between you and the flash is free to remap and lie about what it has really done, including continuing to erase cells that have been marked for garbage collection long after writing has stopped. This invalidates assumptions of repeatability of data recovery assumed for forensic evidence. Concern from the data security folks is what is really still there on the parts if you go directly to the chips and bypass the controller. I'm concerned about the optimizations they mention in the controller firmware geared to proprietary file systems (NTFS). What if these are accidentally performed on some file system that ISN'T and NTFS file structure? From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 14:05:30 2011 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 15:05:30 -0500 Subject: Who will be the last HD maker down the road? In-Reply-To: <201103091946.p29Jkhmo021388@imr-da06.mx.aol.com> References: <201103091946.p29Jkhmo021388@imr-da06.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 14:46, wrote: >> Flash memory is problematic for secure data. ?Basically, its nearly >> impossible to securely erase a file from flash based disks. > > I don't know how that can be true. I can understand deleting doesn't work > but is it true a simple dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdx onto the flash card > doesn't fill it with zeros? And even if it doesn't, how hard is a flash > card to destroy? Hard disks are tough as nails but flash memory can be > snapped in two with your hands or a pair of pliers and burned... Writing a '0' to a location of the flash that used to be '1' MIGHT leave the internal analogue state at a higher level than if the bit previously was '0'. If you then operate the flash in abnormal conditions (messing with the supply voltages) you MAY be able to get the memory into a state where the reading thresholds are "just right" to get the old state. Of course, chances that anyone will actually try to steal your data that way are close enough to 0 that if you are the kind of person to be paranoid about those things you'd use easier ways to introduce large amounts of entropy to the chip. Going back on-topic (is data recoverable?) I'd say the bit-error rate of the above method is probably way too high to rely on this as a backup strategy. Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 9 14:03:18 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 20:03:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: <4D76AB68.6060301@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Mar 8, 11 04:19:20 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> Tony Duell wrote: > >>> What do you mean by 'hardware' multiply and divide? A number of machines, > >>> I suspect the 6809 is amongst them, had no particualrl hardware for > >>> multiply or divide, but they did have multiply and maybe divide > >>> instrucitons in the instruction setc. These instrucitons were implemented > >>> by microcode using the normal registers and ALU. Does that count? > >> Yes, anything that includes a dedicated multiply or divide instruction as part > >> of the instruction set; I suspect a lot of the early implementations fall into > >> the "simple shift-add" that I mentioned due to the lack/cost of silicon. > > > > What do you mean by 'instruction set'. In particular, what do you do > > about machines (PERQ, for example) that load their microocde at power-on > > and thus don't have a fixed machine code instrcution set. > > Whatever instructions were exposed to a programmer of the machine, I suppose. Now that makes the classic PERQ an interesting case. AFAIK all the standard microcodes for the classic PERQ had multiply and divide instruciton. The hardware did not, a PERQ 1 had nothing special, the 1A and later had the mulstep/divstep logic I mentioned in an earlier messsage. So at the microcode level you didn't a full multiply or divide instruction, althought you may have had something that helped. Both machine code and microcode were available to programmers, but the odd thing is that (at least under POS) you were not expected to write machine code (that's what th Pascal compiler was for ;-)), but you were expected to write microcode. The microcode machine (==hardware) is much better documented than the 'Q machine' that the standard microcode gave you at the machine code level. So does that have multiply and divide or not :-) > > I'm trying to build up a rough idea of how common is was though in systems > as supplied by a vendor - so I think that user-written microcode doesn't > count as such (but it's still nice to hear of systems where the user could The standard microcode fo the PERQ doe give ou multiply and divide, but it;'s arguable whether these are hardare instructions or not., > have done it if they wanted and achieved better performance than via > software routines). > > background: I'm revisiting a homebrew microcoded CPU that I started > thinking about a few years ago (with the intention of making it > predominantly from LS-TTL if I can get enough parts together). I hadn't > considered hardware multiply or divide before (the intention was just to There were parallel multiplier chips in the TTL family. Some of them were clearly programmed PROMs. Good luck in fidning them (I have a few, which I am hanging on to...) > have library routines in software), but if it was relatively common on > systems between the mid-70s and early-80s then maybe I'll include > something. Simple shift-add multiply with unsigned integers is simple > enough, but I'm thinking that if I do it at all it'd be nice for it to work > with signed integers, too, so I've got some head-scratching to do :-) You might want to take a look at how the PERQ did it. The extra logic on the 1A CPU for mulstep/divstep is not complicated (one extra shift register, and some control logic). And it's docuemtned. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 9 13:54:12 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 19:54:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 2" floppy disks (Zenith Minisport laptop) In-Reply-To: <71169.94987.qm@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Mar 8, 11 12:22:49 pm Message-ID: > > Hi, > I've had 2 of these for a while. Took a gander at one of them last > night, and lo and behold, there was a disk in 1. Depressing the button > did nothing to free the disk, so I too pliers and yanked it out. It was > a thing of beauty. Unfortunately though the platter was all mangled up. Hmmm.. Are you sure the disk is all you mangled? Certainly on 3.5" drives, it's possivble for the heads to get cauhgg in the disk housing and then get ripped off if you 'yank the disk out. I don;t know if 2" drives suffer from this. I hope not, I suspect 2" drive head assemblies are even harder to find than the disks. > > Ok. Took the thing apart and the substrate or whatever the h* > measured maybe a hair over .001" using a cheap caliper (won't mention What you wan is what if often called over here a 'tenths mike'. A normal micropeter screw gauge with a vernier scale around the barrel, thus reading down to 1/10000". Amazingly I bought one by accident (!). I was looking for a normal micrometer and foudn a good secondhand one at a sensible price. Only when I gout it home did I realise it had the vernier scale. > country of origin). Took apart a 3 1/2" disk and it's platter measured > about .003". Became feverish and measured a video tape and it was oh > .00075". > > I'm aware that the oxides used differs on different media. But, and I > realize there's a discrepancy in the thickness, but are the platters > used in a 3 1/2" disk compatible w/the 2" standard. These things are I hae no idea if the coercifvity is rignt, etc, but I don't think the differnce in thickness would stop things working on its own. > just so friggin cute, I'd like to see them running again. I doubt > anyone is manufacturing 2" disks out there. Do they ever turn up on you-know-where? -tony From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 9 14:41:42 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 13:41:42 -0700 Subject: Who will be the last HD maker down the road? In-Reply-To: <201103091946.p29Jkhmo021388@imr-da06.mx.aol.com> References: <201103091946.p29Jkhmo021388@imr-da06.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: In article <201103091946.p29Jkhmo021388 at imr-da06.mx.aol.com>, writes: > On Tue, 08 Mar 2011 18:14:38 -0600 > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > > From: Richard > > Subject: Re: Who will be the last HD maker down the road? > > To: cctalk > > Message-ID: > > > > > > In article <4D75366B.21696.2604652 at cclist.sydex.com>, > > "Chuck Guzis" writes: > > > > > We may be using flash both for external storage and internal storage. > > > > Flash memory is problematic for secure data. Basically, its nearly > > impossible to securely erase a file from flash based disks. > > I don't know how that can be true. I can understand deleting doesn't work > but is it true a simple dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdx onto the flash card > doesn't fill it with zeros? You can't use dd to erase an individual file. In addition, there are all the machinations that Al mentioned. The device pretends to be a disk, but it isn't a disk. Read recent issues of comp.risks on usenet for more discussion on this. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 9 14:42:26 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 12:42:26 -0800 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: <4D77559C.9816.477A08@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4D76A70F.30078.286E24B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D774D7D.7040803@brouhaha.com> <4D77559C.9816.477A08@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D77E632.50903@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > And it was HUGELY expensive, by the time you got > the entire chipset (ca. $1000 IIRC). People talk about "the entire chipset", but there wasn't such a thing. That would be similar to talking about a microcoded bitslice system using "the entire 2900 chipset"; the concept is meaningless. A 432 system had varying numbers of chips of varying types. The General Data Process was composed of two chips, so those were always used together, but aside from that constraint the number of chips of each type used in a system varied all over the place. A minimal system would need one GDP (43201 and 43202), and one IP (43203). The total cost for one piece each of the 5 MHz speed grade of those three chips in 1984 was $259. > I don't believe it ever saw > deployment in any commercial product There were a few commercial customers, but I have no idea what they used it in. > National couldn't get the PACE off the ground--it was 16-bit, slow, > and took its own bus interface chips.. I don't think many of the PACE systems used National's special interface chips. It's not clear that those chips even went into production. > By the time you were done, you had something that ran about > as fast as an 8085, Not even. Anyhow, that proves my point. Hobbyists weren't interested in things that had a poor price/performance ratio, and Just because hobbyists didn't use things doesn't mean that they were only available to the military. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 9 14:46:24 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 12:46:24 -0800 Subject: Who will be the last HD maker down the road? In-Reply-To: <201103091946.p29Jkhmo021388@imr-da06.mx.aol.com> References: <201103091946.p29Jkhmo021388@imr-da06.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4D77E720.3050100@brouhaha.com> Richard wrote: > Flash memory is problematic for secure data. Basically, its nearly > impossible to securely erase a file from flash based disks. vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > I don't know how that can be true. I can understand deleting doesn't work > but is it true a simple dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdx onto the flash card > doesn't fill it with zeros? That's *exactly* the problem. It doesn't. dd only fills the blocks that are currently in use, but the card may have spared out marginal blocks that still contain residual user data. After that happens, there is no normal command to the device that provides access to those blocks, though there may be vendor-unique ways to get at them, and a well-funded adversary almost certainly could recover that data. This is true of modern hard drives as well. That's why the "secure erase" commands were added to the ATA command set, and the drive is supposed to erase even the spared blocks. Eric From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 9 15:13:19 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 14:13:19 -0700 Subject: 2D barcode for program listings used in 80s magazines? Message-ID: What was the name of that 2D barcode like print pattern that was used in the 80s in magazines to provide machine readable source listings? I remember these appearing in BYTE, at the very least, although I seem to recall them appearing in other magazines as well. The idea was that you would use a wand type scanner to read the 2D strips of data instead of entering the program listings by hand. It seemed to be mostly used for long BASIC source code listings, although I think I remember seeing it on some assembly hex dumps as well. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 9 15:25:34 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 13:25:34 -0800 Subject: 2D barcode for program listings used in 80s magazines? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D77F04E.8060308@brouhaha.com> Richard wrote: > What was the name of that 2D barcode like print pattern that was used > in the 80s in magazines to provide machine readable source listings? > I remember these appearing in BYTE, at the very least, although I seem >to recall them appearing in other magazines as well. Cauzin Softstrip > The idea was that you would use a wand type scanner to read the 2D > strips of data instead of entering the program listings by hand. Since it was a 2D barcode, a wand type scanner would not be usable. There were earlier 1D barcodes used for software distribution. One of the most well-known systems was the HP 82153A Wand used for the HP-41 "calculator". From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 9 15:28:41 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 13:28:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: 2D barcode for program listings used in 80s magazines? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110309132752.J4743@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 9 Mar 2011, Richard wrote: > What was the name of that 2D barcode like print pattern that was used > in the 80s in magazines to provide machine readable source listings? > I remember these appearing in BYTE, at the very least, although I seem > to recall them appearing in other magazines as well. One of them was the Cauzin Soft-strip? From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 9 15:30:16 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 13:30:16 -0800 Subject: 2D barcode for program listings used in 80s magazines? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D77F168.4060701@bitsavers.org> On 3/9/11 1:13 PM, Richard wrote: > What was the name of that 2D barcode like print pattern that was used > in the 80s in magazines to provide machine readable source listings? > Paperbyte Jan 78 "Bar Code Loader by Ken Budnick is the key that unlocks the door to Paperbyte TM Software Books. Included in this publication is a brief history of bar codes, a look at the Paperbyte TM Bar Code format including flowcharts, and a general bar code loader algorithm. Well documented programs with complete implementation and checkout procedures are included for 6800, 6502 and 8080/Z-80 based systems. Individuals with computers based on these processors can use the software directly. I ndividuals with other processors can use the provided functional specifications and detail examples to create 'equivalent programs" From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Mar 9 15:30:22 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 13:30:22 -0800 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: References: <4D7554BF.5090201@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Mar 7, 11 03:57:19 pm Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 2:20 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs > > What do you mean by 'hardware' multiply and divide? A number of > machines, > I suspect the 6809 is amongst them, had no particualrl hardware for > multiply or divide, but they did have multiply and maybe divide > instrucitons in the instruction setc. These instrucitons were > implemented > by microcode using the normal registers and ALU. Does that count? > The 6809 was not microcoded. -- Ian From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Mar 9 15:32:03 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 16:32:03 -0500 Subject: Digital archiving tools Message-ID: > On 3/9/11 10:19 AM, Richard wrote: >> In article<4D77C151.90005 at bitsavers.org>, >> Al Kossow writes: >> >>> I made a decision a long time ago that the primary mode of storage would >>> either be media images or uncompressed archive files (tar, or uncompressed >>> zip, mostly). >> >> Just out of curiosity: why uncompressed? >> >> Is it so that localized corruption of the archives doesn't preclude >> extraction of the remaining contents? > exactly. OTOH I keep all of my images compressed, precisely because I want to know if any copy has been corrupted. (And I md5sum them as well out of FUD). If I find out that any storage media or storage bus is silently corrupting my data without error messages... I would rather know that sooner than later. Tim. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 9 15:33:36 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 14:33:36 -0700 Subject: cataloging metadata standards -- which are important? Message-ID: Which metadata standards are important to computer collections? CollectiveAccess supports these out of the box: - PBCore - DublinCore - SPECTRUM - VRACore - CDWA/CCO - Darwin Core - DACS - ISAD(G) - MARC Are there metadata standards in use by CHM that would be important to support for exchange of catalog metadata? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Mar 9 15:34:06 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 15:34:06 -0600 Subject: 2D barcode for program listings used in 80s magazines? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201103092134.p29LYP3r098296@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 03:13 PM 3/9/2011, Richard wrote: >What was the name of that 2D barcode like print pattern that was used >in the 80s in magazines to provide machine readable source listings? >I remember these appearing in BYTE, at the very least, although I seem >to recall them appearing in other magazines as well. Cauzin Softstrip. Check the archives, it's been discussed here many times. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cauzin_Softstrip - John From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 9 15:35:06 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 13:35:06 -0800 Subject: 2D barcode for program listings used in 80s magazines? In-Reply-To: <4D77F04E.8060308@brouhaha.com> References: <4D77F04E.8060308@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4D77F28A.7050903@bitsavers.org> On 3/9/11 1:25 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > There were earlier 1D barcodes used for software distribution. One of the most well-known systems was the HP 82153A Wand used for the HP-41 "calculator". > Ooops, was thinking about 1D, instead of 2D The earliest mention in Byte of 1D is "A Proposed Standard for Publishing Binary Data in Machine Readable Form" Byte Nov 1976 pg 10 From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Mar 9 15:39:02 2011 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 13:39:02 -0800 Subject: Who will be the last HD maker down the road? In-Reply-To: <4D77E720.3050100@brouhaha.com> References: <201103091946.p29Jkhmo021388@imr-da06.mx.aol.com> <4D77E720.3050100@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <77B95B40-4467-469B-B8EB-203C21DEAE3D@mainecoon.com> On Mar 9, 2011, at 12:46 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > That's why the "secure erase" commands were added to the ATA command set, and the drive is supposed to erase even the spared blocks. Sandforce takes this one step further in that their SSD drives have AES encryption turned on by default. If you issue a ATA secure delete to the drive the key is wiped and regenerated, rendering all of the data in flash, both primary and spare, into garbage. -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 9 15:40:33 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 14:40:33 -0700 Subject: 2D barcode for program listings used in 80s magazines? In-Reply-To: <4D77F04E.8060308@brouhaha.com> References: <4D77F04E.8060308@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: In article <4D77F04E.8060308 at brouhaha.com>, Eric Smith writes: > Richard wrote: > > What was the name of that 2D barcode like print pattern that was used > > in the 80s in magazines to provide machine readable source listings? > > I remember these appearing in BYTE, at the very least, although I seem > >to recall them appearing in other magazines as well. > > Cauzin Softstrip Well that was one that I remember, but not the one I was thinking about. > > The idea was that you would use a wand type scanner to read the 2D > > strips of data instead of entering the program listings by hand. > > Since it was a 2D barcode, a wand type scanner would not be usable. Only if you define "wand" as a "point sensor" device. Wands can certainly be fit with sensors that can sense linear features and not just point features. The pictures of scanners I remember for these data strips were handheld and weren't flatbed type imagers because you needed to scan it out of a magazine that you held. Al Kossow mentioned Paperbyte, which is the one that I remember from BYTE magazine. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 9 15:49:58 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 13:49:58 -0800 Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D77F606.2030309@bitsavers.org> On 3/9/11 1:32 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > OTOH I keep all of my images compressed, precisely because I want to know if any copy has been corrupted. > Another use for uncompressed archives (mainly tape backup images) is you can create a file that contains a directory of the contents and a offset to the file header, and have very fast access within the tape image. You can't do that if the image has been compressed. From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Mar 9 15:50:29 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 16:50:29 -0500 Subject: Digital archiving tools Message-ID: > OTOH I keep all of my images compressed, precisely because I want to know if any copy has been corrupted. Specifically I prefer bzip2 (even though a lot of my imaging activities from the 1990's, before I knew about bzip2, are squirreled away in zip files and I have not necessarily moved them to bzip2). If for some reason the only copy of a bz2 file became partially corrupted I could know which parts were good and which parts were bad: RECOVERING DATA FROM DAMAGED FILES bzip2 compresses files in blocks, usually 900kbytes long. Each block is handled independently. If a media or transmission error causes a multi-block .bz2 file to become damaged, it may be possible to recover data from the undamaged blocks in the file. The compressed representation of each block is delimited by a 48-bit pattern, which makes it possible to find the block boundaries with reasonable certainty. Each block also carries its own 32-bit CRC, so damaged blocks can be distinguished from undamaged ones. bzip2recover is a simple program whose purpose is to search for blocks in .bz2 files, and write each block out into its own .bz2 file. You can then use bzip2 -t to test the integrity of the resulting files, and decompress those which are undamaged. From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Mar 9 16:00:51 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 14:00:51 -0800 Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: <4D77C151.90005@bitsavers.org> References: <759970.91950.qm@web82604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4D77C151.90005@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: From: Al Kossow Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 10:05 AM [snip excellent synopsis of the archival file system problem] > And, if someone does know of a system that is available that can do > this, I'd love to hear about it. I keep thinking this is a business > opportunity for someone, except for the fact that archives never have > any money :-( Al, Have you looked at the Time Capsule File System (unrelated to the Apple product of the same name), designed by Alan K. Bawden of MIT and used for this exact kind of thing in a proof-of-concept experiment written up as a Master's thesis by Brian Zuzga? The entire thesis is online at the latter's web site: http://www.boogles.com/local/papers/tcfs-thesis/thesis.html It might very well serve as the start of something open-source that would serve all of us who need something to deal with the issues you summarized. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 9 16:04:35 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 15:04:35 -0700 Subject: cataloging metadata standards -- which are important? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Looks like one user of CollectiveAccess has partial support for this metadata standard covering preservation metadata: Given projects like the PDP-1 restoration project at the CHM, this seems like it might also be relevant. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 9 16:28:37 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 14:28:37 -0800 Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: References: <759970.91950.qm@web82604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4D77C151.90005@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4D77FF15.1090902@bitsavers.org> On 3/9/11 2:00 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > Have you looked at the Time Capsule File System (unrelated to the Apple > product of the same name), designed by Alan K. Bawden of MIT and used > for this exact kind of thing in a proof-of-concept experiment written up > as a Master's thesis by Brian Zuzga? oh, yes... His is the antithesis of my approach, assuming nothing is known of the original format in the future, and attempting to encapsulate as much knowledge of the contents as possible up front. This was originally developed as a prototype for archiving the MIT AI Lab tape archive. When that work was really done a few years ago, they captured tape images, deduped the backup tape contents, and are currently sorting and indexing the results. I don't know how they will store the results of that. I doubt it will use TCFS, though. From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Wed Mar 9 16:40:48 2011 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 16:40:48 -0600 Subject: Heath H-1 analog computer In-Reply-To: <4D73FF3E.7020904@neurotica.com> References: <4D73FF3E.7020904@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D7801F0.8040800@tx.rr.com> On 3/6/2011 3:40 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Hey folks! I'm giggling like a little girl here, so I just wanted to > share. :) Recently I was lucky enough to acquire a Heath H-1 analog > computer from a very cool guy named Norman in Maine. My lady and I drove > up there to pick it up. It's...just plain awesome. > > I've just finished putting together a page about it here, with pictures: > > http://www.neurotica.com/wiki/Heath_H-1_Analog_Computer > > -Dave > Wow, congratulations, that is awesome!!! About 100 years ago I assembled a different (I'd guess later) model Heathkit analog computer for the physics department where I attended college. OK, it wasn't quite 100 years - roughly 1960 - which does make it about 50 years. It was all enclosed, and I think had fewer op amps, though it too was all tubes (a 12AX7 or maybe a 12AU7 per op amp as I recall). Just from reading the description, the one I assembled had nowhere near the precision of yours. When you get into it, I'd *really* like to hear how you deal with the bit of rust inside. I've done some reading on the internet about the remedies for rust, and I'd love to get some additional input on that. Later, Charlie C. From a50mhzham at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 17:06:27 2011 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 17:06:27 -0600 Subject: List issues Message-ID: <4d7807f1.914ee50a.6152.6286@mx.google.com> Can someone please explain what the problem is with my posts? I mean technically, not in terms of relative value to the discussion. I am (I'm pretty sure) legitimately subscribed to the list. You can ask Al Kossow who I am. I believe I have been a subscriber since 2002, although I only have messages dating back to 2004 to prove it. I was formerly subscribed as tpeters at mixcom.com. That was email address from the late 1990's until it was lost when my ISP got out of the business. In December 2010 I re-subscribed as a50mhzham at gmail.com and this is the address cctalk is sending all posts to. Except mine. I have just logged in and checked my options. Apparently I'm set correctly (settings are all as I expect them to be) especially "Receive your own posts to the list? " which is set to "Yes." I find I can no longer post. I do not see my own posts. My last few messages about SA-801 floppy drives were accused of being spam, with some sort of trojan or virus attached. What's going on? Why, if I get the posts from everyone, do my own not appear? How is it that I can log into http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/options/cctalk with no problem, and yet be unable to post? Please help. -Tom Peters 150 . [Language] Then there's the apocryphal statement attributed to Alexander Haig: "There isn't a word in the English language that can't be verbed." NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 9 17:15:46 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 15:15:46 -0800 Subject: List issues In-Reply-To: <4d7807f1.914ee50a.6152.6286@mx.google.com> References: <4d7807f1.914ee50a.6152.6286@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4D780A22.30702@bitsavers.org> On 3/9/11 3:06 PM, Tom wrote: > I find I can no longer post. I disagree. From a50mhzham at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 17:23:12 2011 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 17:23:12 -0600 Subject: List issues In-Reply-To: <4D780A22.30702@bitsavers.org> References: <4d7807f1.914ee50a.6152.6286@mx.google.com> <4D780A22.30702@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4d780be0.4c8de50a.387b.63a3@mx.google.com> Thanks for the info Al. 1. Should not one receive one's own posts, given that my list options are set that way (and recently reverified?) 2. Was that nonsense regarding my posts about a Shugart 801 floppy drive just some people giving me a hard time? Did you see my posts about having an '801 I'd be happy to sell? -T At 05:15 PM 3/9/2011, you wrote: >On 3/9/11 3:06 PM, Tom wrote: > >>I find I can no longer post. > >I disagree. > 247 . [Engineering] The tarring of any engineering project with the epithet `simple' is more often than not the result of the feeling of confidence that springs from inadequate comprehension of the situation. --SubG NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Mar 9 17:24:24 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 18:24:24 -0500 Subject: SUN Ultra 5 NVRAM Message-ID: <41FE74455DA3430B84971BF0B828A2F7@dell8300> I fired up my Sun Ultra 5 the other day to install a bigger SCSI HD and noticed its NVRAM is dead (FF for ethernet address, serial number changes each reboot). Anybody know a source of cheap replacement NVRAM chips (can they be reworked like a Dallas RTC chip?), and how do you reprogram them? From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 9 17:30:20 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 15:30:20 -0800 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: <4D77E632.50903@brouhaha.com> References: , <4D77559C.9816.477A08@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D77E632.50903@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4D779D0C.32749.15E867F@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Mar 2011 at 12:42, Eric Smith wrote: > People talk about "the entire chipset", but there wasn't such a thing. > That would be similar to talking about a microcoded bitslice system > using "the entire 2900 chipset"; the concept is meaningless. As I recall, we asked what the manufacturing cost of a multibus card using the 432 would be, as our own bus was pretty close to Multibus. After some hem-ing and haw-ing Intel estimated that $1K would be a good ballpark. Mind you, this was before the iA432 was in production, so Intel didn't have any clue on what the yield would be. > I don't think many of the PACE systems used National's special > interface chips. It's not clear that those chips even went into > production. Oh, they did, but marketed as parts for the National 8080 support program. The MILE, for example, is the DP8301; the bidirectional transceiver (I can't recall the acronym) was the DP8308. Note the lack of focus on the part of National--were they interested in selling the SC/MP, the PACE or the 8080? National had a couple of their scouts over to do a presentation on the NS32016 (or 16032, or whatever they called it initially). The thoughtfulness that went into the design really blew me away--the chip looked far and away better than any contender. Of course, it all came down to "When can you start sampling?". A look exchanged and a tentative "Well, we think we'll have silicon in 11 months". As I recall, it turned out to be about 2 years... At least it wasn't boring. I did take my free sample PACE and put it onto an S100 board for jollies, since nobody at work was interested in pursuing it. The design issued pairs of reads and writes to accommodate that 8 bit S100 bus, the thing still ran like molasses in January. I lost interest pretty quickly. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 9 17:44:43 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 15:44:43 -0800 Subject: List issues In-Reply-To: <4d780be0.4c8de50a.387b.63a3@mx.google.com> References: <4d7807f1.914ee50a.6152.6286@mx.google.com> <4D780A22.30702@bitsavers.org> <4d780be0.4c8de50a.387b.63a3@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4D7810EB.5090301@bitsavers.org> On 3/9/11 3:23 PM, Tom wrote: > Thanks for the info Al. > > 1. Should not one receive one's own posts, given that my list options are set that way (and recently reverified?) > you should, did you see this one? > 2. Was that nonsense regarding my posts about a Shugart 801 floppy drive just some people giving me a hard time? Did you see my posts about having an '801 I'd be happy to sell? > I'm not buying any Shugart drives right now. Also, you do realize your reply went to the mailing list? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 9 18:30:47 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 16:30:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: List issues In-Reply-To: <4D7810EB.5090301@bitsavers.org> References: <4d7807f1.914ee50a.6152.6286@mx.google.com> <4D780A22.30702@bitsavers.org> <4d780be0.4c8de50a.387b.63a3@mx.google.com> <4D7810EB.5090301@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20110309162247.A17858@shell.lmi.net> > On 3/9/11 3:23 PM, Tom wrote: > > Thanks for the info Al. > > 1. Should not one receive one's own posts, given that my list options > > are set that way (and recently reverified?) On Wed, 9 Mar 2011, Al Kossow wrote: > you should, did you see this one? Could the problem be in gmail? If you are posting and reading through gmail, . . . I've heard complaints that gmail will "recognize" ones posts, and delete, under the assumption that you already know what you wrote. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > 2. Was that nonsense regarding my posts about a Shugart 801 floppy > > drive just some people giving me a hard time? Did you see my posts > > about having an '801 I'd be happy to sell? > I'm not buying any Shugart drives right now. I don't need any either :-) > Also, you do realize your reply went to the mailing list? _I_ didn't get anything inappropriate with your Shugart posts. But I'm using PINE on a Unix shell account. Perhaps whoever thought that they had a malware hit could wrap it up and forward it back to you for analysis. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ken at seefried.com Wed Mar 9 19:08:02 2011 From: ken at seefried.com (KJ Seefried) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 20:08:02 -0500 Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D782472.3000106@seefried.com> On 3/9/2011 1:00 PM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Since the 9450 implemented the MIL-STD-1750A architecture I occasionally wonder why 1750a wasn't more widely adopted commercially, given a fairly open specification, relatively easy to implement, mature tools ecosystem and built in revenue opportunity from the military. Tangentially, I've got a complete Performance Semi P1750A chipset including MMU. I need to build something with it, if I could ever find enough doco to really understand it. KJ From a50mhzham at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 19:41:44 2011 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 19:41:44 -0600 Subject: List issues In-Reply-To: <20110309162247.A17858@shell.lmi.net> References: <4d7807f1.914ee50a.6152.6286@mx.google.com> <4D780A22.30702@bitsavers.org> <4d780be0.4c8de50a.387b.63a3@mx.google.com> <4D7810EB.5090301@bitsavers.org> <20110309162247.A17858@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4d782cb7.5069e50a.7995.2678@mx.google.com> Thanks Fred. Maybe I should resubscribe using a different account. Thanks to anyone else who gave feedback as well. -T At 06:30 PM 3/9/2011, you wrote: > > On 3/9/11 3:23 PM, Tom wrote: > > > Thanks for the info Al. > > > 1. Should not one receive one's own posts, given that my list options > > > are set that way (and recently reverified?) > >On Wed, 9 Mar 2011, Al Kossow wrote: > > you should, did you see this one? > >Could the problem be in gmail? If you are posting and reading through >gmail, . . . >I've heard complaints that gmail will "recognize" ones posts, and delete, >under the assumption that you already know what you wrote. > >-- >Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > > > 2. Was that nonsense regarding my posts about a Shugart 801 floppy > > > drive just some people giving me a hard time? Did you see my posts > > > about having an '801 I'd be happy to sell? > > I'm not buying any Shugart drives right now. > >I don't need any either :-) > > > > Also, you do realize your reply went to the mailing list? > >_I_ didn't get anything inappropriate with your Shugart posts. But I'm >using PINE on a Unix shell account. > >Perhaps whoever thought that they had a malware hit could wrap it up and >forward it back to you for analysis. > >-- >Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com 290 . [Gamers] "It was a ...lightless and ...rainy night." --Anthony Spataro (ads at netcom.com) NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From Hollandia at ccountry.net Wed Mar 9 21:37:47 2011 From: Hollandia at ccountry.net (Hollandia at ccountry.net) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 19:37:47 -0800 Subject: BIOS/Clock battery replacement Message-ID: <201103100337.p2A3baQ8032579@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> One of my computers is a 486SX. The soldered-in battery is apparently failing; after a period of power-off, the time is badly off at re-start. The date and BIOS are so far unaffected. The motherboard has provision for an off-board battery. I am thinking of using a socketed CR2032 battery which I believe is rated at 3 volts. The manual for the computer describes the off-board battery as 3.6 volts. Is it asking for trouble to use a 3v rather than a 3.6v battery? If so, where are the 3.6v batteries available? Thanks, Kurt From evan at snarc.net Wed Mar 9 21:38:08 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 22:38:08 -0500 Subject: ZX-80 in good condition needed for MARCH museum Message-ID: <4D7847A0.50209@snarc.net> Hello all, We're conspicuously in need of a Sinclair ZX-80, in good condition, for our computer museum here in New Jersey. Normally we only accept donations, but in this case we're willing to negotiate a trade / purchase, depending on individual needs vs. our surplus inventory. Please contact me OFF-LIST (thanks) if you have one to part with. Thank you. - Evan (evan at snarc.net) From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Mar 9 21:47:13 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 22:47:13 -0500 Subject: BIOS/Clock battery replacement In-Reply-To: <201103100337.p2A3baQ8032579@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> References: <201103100337.p2A3baQ8032579@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Message-ID: <4D7849C1.60809@atarimuseum.com> The CR2032's are 3v, but its of no huge difference, generally the drop off voltage for the memory retaining will be around 1.8-2.0v's so you should be totally fine, what is on the board or was on the board previously? Volts are important but the millamps to allow it to last longer are actually more important, you may want to consider putting them in parallel if what was there is a higher ma amount Also, check and see if what was there is no a rechargeable cell because if so, you'll have to put a diode into the circuit to keep the power from backwashing into the battery and damaging it, LiON button batteries like the CR series are not rechargeable and youll damage it if the current battery is setup to be a rechargeable.... Hollandia at ccountry.net wrote: > One of my computers is a 486SX. The soldered-in battery is apparently > failing; after a period of power-off, the time is badly off at re-start. The > date and BIOS are so far unaffected. > > The motherboard has provision for an off-board battery. I am thinking of > using a socketed CR2032 battery which I believe is rated at 3 volts. The > manual for the computer describes the off-board battery as 3.6 volts. > > Is it asking for trouble to use a 3v rather than a 3.6v battery? If so, > where are the 3.6v batteries available? > > Thanks, > > Kurt > > > From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Mar 9 22:16:15 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 23:16:15 -0500 Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D78508F.6020800@compsys.to> >Shoppa, Tim wrote: >>OTOH I keep all of my images compressed, precisely because I want to know if any copy has been corrupted. >> >> > >Specifically I prefer bzip2 (even though a lot of my imaging >activities from the 1990's, before I knew about bzip2, are squirreled >away in zip files and I have not necessarily moved them to bzip2). > >If for some reason the only copy of a bz2 file >became partially corrupted I could know which parts were good and which parts were bad: > >RECOVERING DATA FROM DAMAGED FILES > bzip2 compresses files in blocks, usually 900kbytes long. > Each block is handled independently. If a media or transmission error > causes a multi-block .bz2 file to become damaged, it may be possible to > recover data from the undamaged blocks in the file. > > The compressed representation of each block is delimited by a 48-bit > pattern, which makes it possible to find the block boundaries > with reasonable certainty. Each block also carries its own 32-bit CRC, so > damaged blocks can be distinguished from undamaged ones. > > bzip2recover is a simple program whose purpose is to search for blocks > in .bz2 files, and write each block out into its own .bz2 > file. You can then use bzip2 -t to test the integrity of the > resulting files, and decompress those which are undamaged. > > I also use bzip2 to compress and md5 to verify the files I want to archive. I found free ware versions about 10 years ago. Is it possible to find the md5 algorithm? I would like to run the code under the E11 emulator to check files copied from the PC to determine if they are still OK? I have found a number of web sites which discuss md5, but none that have the actual algorithm. However, the versions of the program that I use handle only one file at a time. Are there more recent versions which allow multiple files to be processed at one time? In addition, When I archive files, I usually set up an ASCII file for each group of archived files which lists the File Name, File Size and MD5 value. This ASCII file is stored with the archived files so that it is possible to check for file integrity and prevent bit rot. Are there any programs which cal be used to produce files with the above information? Finally, if s complete device is being archived, I suggest GHOST be considered. GHOST can also product an ASCII file which can also produced compressed file images in addition to an ASCII file which contains a list of the files in the image of the device which is being archived, although this option is available only if the file structure of the device is FAT32. Another restriction is that GHOST is an off-line application, i.e. GHOST can run only when the DOS operating system has been booted. Otherwise, GHOST is quite fast. A 2 GB collection of files can be compressed down to about 1 GB. On a Pentium III, it takes about 7 minutes. On a 3.0 GHZ core 2 duo, about 16 GB compresses to about 10 GB and takes about 30 minutes to produce the 5 files to hold all of the date. Jeorme Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Mar 9 22:26:06 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 23:26:06 -0500 Subject: Who will be the last HD maker down the road? In-Reply-To: <4D76DDE7.2030401@brouhaha.com> References: <5D60101E9D854896A0C32DAEEECC0F85@dell8300> <4D75366B.21696.2604652@cclist.sydex.com> <4D76DDE7.2030401@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4D7852DE.6060208@compsys.to> >Eric Smith wrote: > Of course, for classified data and any other data that needs to be > secure from even extremely well-funded adversaries (i.e., intelligence > agencies), physical destruction is still the only satisfactory erasure > method. But telling the flash drive to do a secure erase should be > good enough to keep even the commercial data recovery companies from > being able to extract your credit card numbers, etc. If the secure erase feature is not available, then if it can be assumed that there are no bad blocks with valid date and hidden away, about how many time does it take to completely erase a hard disk drive block for both ATA and non-ATA hard drive beyond all possibility of recovery? In the past I have heard that a variable bit pattern written to a disk block around seven times is sufficient to prevent the original data from being recovered. Jerome Fine From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Mar 9 23:01:36 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 21:01:36 -0800 Subject: SUN Ultra 5 NVRAM In-Reply-To: <41FE74455DA3430B84971BF0B828A2F7@dell8300> Message-ID: Yes they can be reworked, however, the battery will eventually leak :( and screw up your board. The crystal is in the top with the battery so you have to be careful. On 3/9/11 3:24 PM, "Teo Zenios" wrote: > I fired up my Sun Ultra 5 the other day to install a bigger SCSI HD and > noticed its NVRAM is dead (FF for ethernet address, serial number changes each > reboot). > > Anybody know a source of cheap replacement NVRAM chips (can they be reworked > like a Dallas RTC chip?), and how do you reprogram them? > From vintagecoder at aol.com Wed Mar 9 23:36:58 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 05:36:58 +0000 Subject: Who will be the last HD maker down the road? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201103100537.p2A5b153011084@imr-db02.mx.aol.com> > Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 12:06:10 -0800 > From: Al Kossow > Subject: Re: Who will be the last HD maker down the road? > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4D77DDB2.5030004 at bitsavers.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 3/9/11 11:46 AM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > > > I don't know how that can be true. I can understand deleting doesn't > > work but is it true a simple dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdx onto the flash > > card doesn't fill it with zeros? > > From reading the papers, there are many redundant cells, and the > controller between you and the flash is free to remap and lie about what > it has really done, including continuing to erase cells that have been > marked for garbage collection long after writing has stopped. I understand that and it makes sense "deleting" data or trying to overwrite a filesystem record doesn't necessarily do what we think. But filling the drive to its capacity with a utility like dd using zeros or random data has to work because you can read the data back, so it's really there. > This invalidates assumptions of repeatability of data recovery assumed for > forensic evidence. Interesting and I'm not sure I got what you mean. > Concern from the data security folks is what is really still there > on the parts if you go directly to the chips and bypass the controller. Right, for data that was "deleted", but new data that was written has to end up on the chip somewhere...and this means it really does replace what was there before, unless there's extra capacity there...in which case some number of passes of filling it with random data has to work eventually, by definition. Otherwise it's a bit bucket and not a storage device ;) > I'm concerned about the optimizations they mention in the controller > firmware geared to proprietary file systems (NTFS). What if these are > accidentally performed on some file system that ISN'T and NTFS file > structure? I saw a good piece on this point to the issue that most of the cards are optimized towards FAT32. It explained it may be harmful performance wise to other file systems that are based on spinning media and write small blocks, since the flash works best with much larger fixed blocks depending on manufacturer. I guess we will see some interesting file system development as people address these issues both from hardware and software angles. From vintagecoder at aol.com Wed Mar 9 23:41:13 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 05:41:13 +0000 Subject: Who will be the last HD maker down the road? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201103100541.p2A5fHd2013258@imr-mb01.mx.aol.com> > Message: 17 > Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 15:05:30 -0500 > From: Joachim Thiemann > Subject: Re: Who will be the last HD maker down the road? > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > Writing a '0' to a location of the flash that used to be '1' MIGHT > leave the internal analogue state at a higher level than if the bit > previously was '0'. If you then operate the flash in abnormal > conditions (messing with the supply voltages) you MAY be able to get > the memory into a state where the reading thresholds are "just right" > to get the old state. That only gets you so much. If I copy a stream from /dev/urandom to the card having an occasional bit recoverable isn't going to help because of all the bits that can't be recovered. From what I have read I am alot more confident flash can be safely erased with software than I am about a physical drive since magnetism is harder to clean out than flash. Seems to me the point is not relying on a filesystem delete operation but actually filling the drive with random data. And as I said destroying flash is alot easier than smashing a hard drive. From vintagecoder at aol.com Wed Mar 9 23:43:58 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 05:43:58 +0000 Subject: Who will be the last HD maker down the road? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201103100544.p2A5i3lt012969@imr-da05.mx.aol.com> On Wed, 09 Mar 2011 15:30:30 -0600 cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > On Tue, 08 Mar 2011 18:14:38 -0600 > > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > > > > From: Richard > > > Subject: Re: Who will be the last HD maker down the road? > > > To: cctalk > > > Message-ID: > > > > > > > > > In article <4D75366B.21696.2604652 at cclist.sydex.com>, > > > "Chuck Guzis" writes: > > > > > > > We may be using flash both for external storage and internal > > > > storage. > > > > > > Flash memory is problematic for secure data. Basically, its nearly > > > impossible to securely erase a file from flash based disks. > > > > I don't know how that can be true. I can understand deleting doesn't > > work but is it true a simple dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdx onto the flash > > card doesn't fill it with zeros? > > You can't use dd to erase an individual file. You don't have to and that's not the point. The point is you can make a flash drive unrecoverable using dd. If you want individual files to be unrecoverable, just encrypt the whole flash device and never write anything to it in the clear. Easy to implement and a good general solution. > In addition, there are all the machinations that Al mentioned. The device > pretends to be a disk, but it isn't a disk. Doesn't matter as far as I can tell. It has to store the data you give it somewhere, or it wouldn't be useful. Therefore you can get it to overwrite whats already there, just not at the filesystem level. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 9 23:46:09 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 21:46:09 -0800 Subject: Who will be the last HD maker down the road? In-Reply-To: <4D7852DE.6060208@compsys.to> References: <5D60101E9D854896A0C32DAEEECC0F85@dell8300> <4D75366B.21696.2604652@cclist.sydex.com> <4D76DDE7.2030401@brouhaha.com> <4D7852DE.6060208@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4D7865A1.8050209@brouhaha.com> Jerome H. Fine wrote: > If the secure erase feature is not available, then if it can be assumed > that there are no bad blocks with valid date and hidden away, about > how many time does it take to completely erase a hard disk drive block > for both ATA and non-ATA hard drive beyond all possibility of recovery? On drives with older recording technology (MFM or RLL), three passes of random data should be enough, though the military standard used more passes, some with fixed patterns and some random. On modern drives using PRML (as they all do these days), one pass with random data should be enough, but do several just to be certain. I saw a paper about this a year or two ago, but can't find it at the moment. Eric From vintagecoder at aol.com Wed Mar 9 23:47:06 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 05:47:06 +0000 Subject: Who will be the last HD maker down the road? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201103100547.p2A5lAjC014275@imr-da01.mx.aol.com> On Wed, 09 Mar 2011 15:30:30 -0600 cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Message: 22 > Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 12:46:24 -0800 > From: Eric Smith > Subject: Re: Who will be the last HD maker down the road? > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4D77E720.3050100 at brouhaha.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Richard wrote: > > Flash memory is problematic for secure data. Basically, its nearly > > impossible to securely erase a file from flash based disks. > > vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > > I don't know how that can be true. I can understand deleting doesn't > > work but is it true a simple dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdx onto the > > flash card doesn't fill it with zeros? > > That's *exactly* the problem. It doesn't. dd only fills the blocks > that are currently in use, but the card may have spared out marginal > blocks that still contain residual user data. Then I would think a few passes of filling it with random data should work. > This is true of modern hard drives as well. I like flash because you can snap them in pieces easily ;) All the theory comes to an end at my pair of vice grips! > > That's why the "secure erase" commands were added to the ATA command > set, and the drive is supposed to erase even the spared blocks. I don't trust that to work. But I do trust my vice grips. From vintagecoder at aol.com Wed Mar 9 23:49:38 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 05:49:38 +0000 Subject: Who will be the last HD maker down the road? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201103100549.p2A5nhaI019210@imr-db01.mx.aol.com> On Wed, 09 Mar 2011 23:37:13 -0600 cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Message: 6 > Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 13:39:02 -0800 > From: Christian Kennedy > Subject: Re: Who will be the last HD maker down the road? > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Message-ID: <77B95B40-4467-469B-B8EB-203C21DEAE3D at mainecoon.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > On Mar 9, 2011, at 12:46 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > > That's why the "secure erase" commands were added to the ATA command > > set, and the drive is supposed to erase even the spared blocks. > > Sandforce takes this one step further in that their SSD drives have AES > encryption turned on by default. If you issue a ATA secure delete to the > drive the key is wiped and regenerated, rendering all of the data in > flash, both primary and spare, into garbage. That's a good theory, but you have no way of knowing whether there's key escrow or not. The safest thing is to use your own encryption, then you know the key will not wind up on the drive somewhere. That's pretty easy to do on Windows or Linux these days. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 9 23:51:15 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 21:51:15 -0800 Subject: Who will be the last HD maker down the road? In-Reply-To: <201103100537.p2A5b153011084@imr-db02.mx.aol.com> References: <201103100537.p2A5b153011084@imr-db02.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4D7866D3.2060308@brouhaha.com> vintagecoder wrote: > I understand that and it makes sense "deleting" data or trying to overwrite > a filesystem record doesn't necessarily do what we think. But filling > the drive to its capacity with a utility like dd using zeros or random data > has to work because you can read the data back, so it's really there. No, that doesn't "have to work". Even though the drive is "filled to capacity", there still can be spared-out blocks containing old user data. The capacity that the drive reports is less than the physical number of blocks on the medium, specifically because there are blocks reserved for use as spares. > Right, for data that was "deleted", but new data that was written has to end > up on the chip somewhere...and this means it really does replace what > was there before, unless there's extra capacity there... Which there is. > in which case some number of passes of filling it with random data has to work eventually, by definition. If you do that, eventually enough blocks will fail that the drive can no longer spare them. It will start reporting errors to the host. However, this does NOT mean that you have succesfully erased any previously spared blocks containing remnants of user data. Once they're spared out, they generally stay spared out forever, so the remnants of user data will still be there. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Mar 10 00:00:50 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 22:00:50 -0800 Subject: Who will be the last HD maker down the road? In-Reply-To: <201103100547.p2A5lAjC014275@imr-da01.mx.aol.com> References: <201103100547.p2A5lAjC014275@imr-da01.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4D786912.6040703@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > That's why the "secure erase" commands were added to the ATA > command set, and the drive is supposed to erase even the spared blocks. vintagecoder wrote: > I don't trust that to work. Notice that I *never* said that you should trust the "secure erase" command. I only said that this was why the command was invented. > But I do trust my vice grips. If I thought a TLA was going to try to extract my data from a drive, I wouldn't believe that breaking it into a few pieces with vice grips would be sufficent to prevent it. If I just wanted to prevent some random person from recovering my credit card number from an old drive I was throwing away, I'd expect the "secure erase" command to be sufficient to thwart that. "If we guard our toothbrushes and diamonds with equal zeal, we will lose fewer toothbrushes and more diamonds." -- former National Security Advisor McGeorge Bundy In other words, balance the amount of time/money/effort you put into erasing your old data with the cost (time/money/damage to reputation) of unauthorized disclosure. If the drive contained your old grocery lists, you don't need to use thermite on it, but if it contained sensitive personal records of thousands of clients, you might not want to trust a disk wipe program. Eric From robert.herget at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 12:54:21 2011 From: robert.herget at gmail.com (Robert Herget) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 12:54:21 -0600 Subject: [rescue] Stuff to dispense with pt 1. Message-ID: Hi, Im interested in your Onyx prototype machine. What all does it come with? Robert Herget From wmaddox at pacbell.net Thu Mar 10 01:34:38 2011 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 23:34:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: AlphaMicro 68000 system, eBay BIN $125, located in Turlock, CA Message-ID: <965884.18123.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I saw this on eBay. No connection with the seller. http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Alpha-Micro-S-100-68000-Server-AM-1072-VCR-i-o-/320669108045?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4aa95e474d From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Mar 10 04:17:46 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 11:17:46 +0100 (CET) Subject: Microcode .vs. Hardware (Was: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Mar 2011, Rick Bensene wrote: > I thought that the Combitron was largely a microcoded machine, with the > microcode read into a delay line from a punched metal tape at startup. I am just in the process of analyzing a Combitron. With the help from Klemens, who read out the steel tape with his LAB8/e, I was able to disassemble the firmware of the machine. The CPU itself is hardwired and has 32 opcodes (5 bits called syllable). Eleven syllables make up a word. The contents of the steel tape is nothing but the program that implements the calculator. Here is an example, it's the contents of (R delay line) word 95 that implements the idle loop (waiting for a key press). The three-digit numbers are octal, the left one is a P word syllable, the right on a P_ (= not P) one. The P_ word of the I phase represents the opcodes. Word 95 (P / P_): 000 023 c 97 clear I_P 000 005 - 99 substract word 1 000 024 C 2 negative -> jump to 4 000 001 T1 6 test keyboard line 1 000 010 T2 8 test keyboard line 2 000 024 C 10 key pressed -> jump to word 12 000 030 W1 14 wait 000 000 (cnt) 16 000 031 W0 47 wait 000 013 (cnt) 49 000 025 F 93 jump to word 95 (loop) > The Combitron was designed by Stanley Frankel, who also designed the > LGP-30, the SCM/Marchant Cogito calculator, and a number of other small Yes, and that makes the machine *very* interesting. It is even more minimalistic than the LGP-30. > in their home. Based on what Allan explained to me, the operation of > the machine was controlled pretty much entirely by the "firmware" loaded > in at power-up when the tape is read in. The low count of flip flops True, and according to the service manual there existed test tapes to check out the machine with the help of an oscilloscope. > would follow in such a design, as a small number of flip flops are only > needed to store state information, and a few for holding temporary > microcode operation code information, and a few more for buffering data > circulating through the delay line(s). I've counted the number of FFs: twelve for data processing and nine for clock and timing signals. The twelve FFs are the VZ register (i.e. V, W, X, Y and Z) that hold an opcode during execution; M, R and Q in line with the delay lines; A, B, C used for miscellaneous purposes during arithmetic operations; and E indicating a double or long order. All documents for the Diehl that I could get my hand on are on our FTP server (ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/diehl). Page 182 of the PDF document Diehl.pdf lists the opcodes of the machine, they are basically the same as those printed in Frankel's patent (also on the server). The difference between Frankel's and Diehl's design is mainly the increased word length of 55 instead of 40 bits. Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Mar 10 04:26:50 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 11:26:50 +0100 (CET) Subject: Microcode .vs. Hardware (Was: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs) In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Mar 2011, dwight elvey wrote: > I never had any external storage. I can recall if it was tape of punch > cards. There was the optional Diehl Dilector (http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev/decitrn/combi_s.html) > It had two delay lines, one for data and the other for program. That is what I thought at the beginning, too. But in reality one is the R delay line (the shorter one that holds 218 bits at 1MHz, plus R and Q flip-flops for a total of 220 bits) and the other is the M delay line (10889 bits plus M flip-flop). The R line holds two double-words (interleaved P and P_ bits for one I and one I_ phase (duration 110?s)), the M line holds 99 such words. Execution is from the R line that (in most cases but not always) also holds the data to be processed. > I never did figure out how it coordinated the delay line with > the tape. The tape didn't seem to have any speed control. That's right, the boot-up process used a very tricky state-machine using the CPU flip-flops for holding the state and data from the tape. That's purely Frankel who likes using parts for many different purposes during different states of the machine. The loading phase is described in detail in the technical manual (I only have the German version). Christian From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 06:16:26 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 07:16:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: <4D77F606.2030309@bitsavers.org> References: <4D77F606.2030309@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Mar 2011, Al Kossow wrote: > On 3/9/11 1:32 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > >> OTOH I keep all of my images compressed, precisely because I want to know >> if any copy has been corrupted. >> > > Another use for uncompressed archives (mainly tape backup images) is you can > create a file that contains > a directory of the contents and a offset to the file header, and have very > fast access within the tape image. > You can't do that if the image has been compressed. You can get the best of both worlds by using a tape storage system with hardware level compression. My LTO-2 drive squeezes the bits at the low level, yet I still have logical direct access to all files. -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 06:18:31 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 07:18:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: List issues In-Reply-To: <20110309162247.A17858@shell.lmi.net> References: <4d7807f1.914ee50a.6152.6286@mx.google.com> <4D780A22.30702@bitsavers.org> <4d780be0.4c8de50a.387b.63a3@mx.google.com> <4D7810EB.5090301@bitsavers.org> <20110309162247.A17858@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Mar 2011, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On 3/9/11 3:23 PM, Tom wrote: >>> Thanks for the info Al. >>> 1. Should not one receive one's own posts, given that my list options >>> are set that way (and recently reverified?) > > On Wed, 9 Mar 2011, Al Kossow wrote: >> you should, did you see this one? > > Could the problem be in gmail? If you are posting and reading through > gmail, . . . > I've heard complaints that gmail will "recognize" ones posts, and delete, > under the assumption that you already know what you wrote. Yes. It got so annoying that I switched my list subscription to my ISP direct e-mail address. -- From olivier.2.smet at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 07:37:47 2011 From: olivier.2.smet at gmail.com (Olivier De Smet) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 14:37:47 +0100 Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: <4D72C355.7020608@bitsavers.org> References: <4D72C355.7020608@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Any way to get a multiForth (1.03 or 2.0) or a HP-UX V5 disk dump ? 2011/3/6 Al Kossow : > On 3/5/11 2:16 PM, Michael Kerpan wrote: >> >> This looks really cool. I'm hoping that now that the source has been >> released, the holy wars can end and Al will release some software to >> us so that we can enjoy this new toy (or tool) >> > > It is already on the HP Museum site. > > From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Mar 10 07:47:10 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 05:47:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: BIOS/Clock battery replacement In-Reply-To: <201103100337.p2A3baQ8032579@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Message-ID: <516048.16052.qm@web121614.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 3/9/11, Hollandia at ccountry.net wrote: > The motherboard has provision for an off-board battery. I > am thinking of > using a socketed CR2032 battery which I believe is rated at > 3 volts. The > manual for the computer describes the off-board battery as > 3.6 volts. > > Is it asking for trouble to use a 3v rather than a 3.6v > battery? If so, > where are the 3.6v batteries available? I've used CR2032's as replacements before on similar machines, it's worked fine. Just remember - whatever you do, REMOVE the old soldered in battery from the board. It'll leak and corrode through traces. I've desoldered them and installed CR2032 sockets in their place with good success. But if you don't want to go to the trouble, you can just clip off the old battery. -Ian From spedraja at ono.com Thu Mar 10 08:56:21 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 15:56:21 +0100 Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: References: <4D72C355.7020608@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: HP-UX v5 would be a *VERY* cool find :-) Sergio 2011/3/10 Olivier De Smet > Any way to get a multiForth (1.03 or 2.0) or a HP-UX V5 disk dump ? > > 2011/3/6 Al Kossow : > > On 3/5/11 2:16 PM, Michael Kerpan wrote: > >> > >> This looks really cool. I'm hoping that now that the source has been > >> released, the holy wars can end and Al will release some software to > >> us so that we can enjoy this new toy (or tool) > >> > > > > It is already on the HP Museum site. > > > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Mar 10 09:10:45 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 07:10:45 -0800 Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: References: <4D77F606.2030309@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4D78E9F5.2000201@bitsavers.org> On 3/10/11 4:16 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > You can get the best of both worlds by using a tape storage system with hardware level compression. Friends don't let friends store their archives on a media that requires physical contact with a read/write head. From rickb at bensene.com Thu Mar 10 09:10:36 2011 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 07:10:36 -0800 Subject: Attn. Christian Conti [Re: Microcode .vs. Hardware] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Christian, I tried to Email you directly but I got a bounce back saying that my client was blocked from sending to your mail gateway. Is there a way that I can reach you directly? I have some questions and other information relating to the Combitron that I don't want to clutter up the list with. To others reading this, I apologize for the personal Email. Rick Bensene From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Mar 10 09:13:49 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 09:13:49 -0600 Subject: Who will be the last HD maker down the road? In-Reply-To: <201103100537.p2A5b153011084@imr-db02.mx.aol.com> References: <201103100537.p2A5b153011084@imr-db02.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <201103101515.p2AFFTJe053037@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 11:36 PM 3/9/2011, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: >I understand that and it makes sense "deleting" data or trying to overwrite >a filesystem record doesn't necessarily do what we think. But filling >the drive to its capacity with a utility like dd using zeros or random data >has to work because you can read the data back, so it's really there. If the "file system" was smart, after you did that it would just point you to one zeroed block all day long, if it knew that's what you wanted to see. In virtualized environments, there's great advantage to be gained by letting an OS think it has much more space than it is actually using. It might look like you have 1 TB, but your disk drive container file is only as large as the storage you're actually using. This "thin provisioning" allows many servers to run on a single server, and reallocate the real storage between a dozen servers that think they might need it. It's oversubscription at the file system level. Technological advances and improvements are moving away from one user, one hard drive, and the one-to-one correspondence between what was once written and what you might find, if you look deeply at the low level. Forensics may become much more difficult because of it. Cloud storage throws it a loop, too. Removable storage does, too, along with encrypted file systems within file systems, or wireless network storage, etc. - John From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Mar 10 09:19:01 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 15:19:01 +0000 Subject: BIOS/Clock battery replacement In-Reply-To: <516048.16052.qm@web121614.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <516048.16052.qm@web121614.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D78EBE5.1060407@philpem.me.uk> On 10/03/11 13:47, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > I've used CR2032's as replacements before on similar machines, it's > worked fine. > > Just remember - whatever you do, REMOVE the old soldered in battery > from the board. It'll leak and corrode through traces. I'll second this with one addition -- the electrolyte in NiCd batteries also eats some types of glass-fibre PCB substrate. What this means is that you not only lose the tracks, but the board itself basically turns to dust as well... Get a pair of wire cutters (the "flush cutting" kind ideally) and cut the thing off the board, then desolder the stubs and clean the PCB with vinegar, then water (ideally deionised or distilled), then isopropyl or a standard PCB cleaner / flux remover. This works thusly: 1. The vinegar neutralises the alkaline electrolyte (usually potassium hydroxide) 2. The water gets rid of the vinegar and any water-soluble dirt 3. The IPA removes any alcohol-soluble dirt (e.g. solder flux) and helps the water evaporate more quickly. > I've > desoldered them and installed CR2032 sockets in their place with good > success. But if you don't want to go to the trouble, you can just > clip off the old battery. Usually there's a 4-pin header which allows you to install an external battery once you've removed the board-mounted one. These are usually designed to take 4.5V alkaline batteries and generally have a diode and series limiting resistor on the PCB. The Acorn BBC Micro (actually the Master series) used three AAs in a shrink-wrapped package shoved in the gap between the keyboard and the case... IIRC there was a 120-ohm resistor and a 1N4001 diode inside the package -- the resistor limits current if the diode fails. Earlier machines had a battery holder by the side of the motherboard. You could remove the old batteries and replace them with off-the-shelf AAs. Unfortunately the battery holder sits in the Tube co-processor bay, so you can't install an internal co-processor without replacing the battery pack with the shrink-wrap version. There's nothing stopping you installing an external cheese-wedge co-processor though... (And with that tangent over and done with...!) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Mar 10 09:26:35 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 10:26:35 -0500 Subject: BIOS/Clock battery replacement In-Reply-To: <4D78EBE5.1060407@philpem.me.uk> References: <516048.16052.qm@web121614.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4D78EBE5.1060407@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D78EDAB.7070107@atarimuseum.com> This was a major design flaw in the Pole Position arcade PCB's, someone positioned the backup battery at the top center of the board when it was mounted sideways on the inside side wall of the cabinets and when the batteries died, they died a horrific messy death, usually taking out a 3 square inch of the PCB traces with them. Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 10/03/11 13:47, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> I've used CR2032's as replacements before on similar machines, it's >> worked fine. >> >> Just remember - whatever you do, REMOVE the old soldered in battery >> from the board. It'll leak and corrode through traces. > > I'll second this with one addition -- the electrolyte in NiCd > batteries also eats some types of glass-fibre PCB substrate. What this > means is that you not only lose the tracks, but the board itself > basically turns to dust as well... > > Get a pair of wire cutters (the "flush cutting" kind ideally) and cut > the thing off the board, then desolder the stubs and clean the PCB > with vinegar, then water (ideally deionised or distilled), then > isopropyl or a standard PCB cleaner / flux remover. > > This works thusly: > 1. The vinegar neutralises the alkaline electrolyte (usually > potassium hydroxide) > 2. The water gets rid of the vinegar and any water-soluble dirt > 3. The IPA removes any alcohol-soluble dirt (e.g. solder flux) and > helps the water evaporate more quickly. > > > I've >> desoldered them and installed CR2032 sockets in their place with good >> success. But if you don't want to go to the trouble, you can just >> clip off the old battery. > > Usually there's a 4-pin header which allows you to install an external > battery once you've removed the board-mounted one. These are usually > designed to take 4.5V alkaline batteries and generally have a diode > and series limiting resistor on the PCB. > > The Acorn BBC Micro (actually the Master series) used three AAs in a > shrink-wrapped package shoved in the gap between the keyboard and the > case... IIRC there was a 120-ohm resistor and a 1N4001 diode inside > the package -- the resistor limits current if the diode fails. > > Earlier machines had a battery holder by the side of the motherboard. > You could remove the old batteries and replace them with off-the-shelf > AAs. Unfortunately the battery holder sits in the Tube co-processor > bay, so you can't install an internal co-processor without replacing > the battery pack with the shrink-wrap version. There's nothing > stopping you installing an external cheese-wedge co-processor though... > > (And with that tangent over and done with...!) > From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Mar 10 09:34:20 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 07:34:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: BIOS/Clock battery replacement In-Reply-To: <4D78EDAB.7070107@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <570872.45726.qm@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 3/10/11, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > This was a major design flaw in the > Pole Position arcade PCB's, someone positioned the backup > battery at the top center of the board when it was mounted > sideways on the inside side wall of the cabinets and when > the batteries died, they died a horrific messy death, > usually taking out a 3 square inch of the PCB traces with > them. > Don't remind me... And it was many more than just Pole Position. There were *lots* of 80's video games, as well as pinball machines that suffer from the same fate. I've spent more hours repairing battery damaged boards than I care to think about. -Ian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 09:55:30 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 10:55:30 -0500 Subject: BIOS/Clock battery replacement In-Reply-To: <570872.45726.qm@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <4D78EDAB.7070107@atarimuseum.com> <570872.45726.qm@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 10:34 AM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Don't remind me... > > And it was many more than just Pole Position. There were *lots* of 80's video games, as well as pinball machines that suffer from the same fate. I've spent more hours repairing battery damaged boards than I care to think about. I've got a dead Commodore Colt (PC-III) that was working when it came to me (and was used to burn many GG2 Bus+ GALs) then the battery leaked and took out the traces nearby. I moved the burner to a Compaq 286/SLT laptop (its timing is such that it does not work with anything as "new" as fast as a 25MHz 386), but the Colt is still on the repair pile. -ethan From tingox at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 02:45:01 2011 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 09:45:01 +0100 Subject: List issues In-Reply-To: <20110309162247.A17858@shell.lmi.net> References: <4d7807f1.914ee50a.6152.6286@mx.google.com> <4D780A22.30702@bitsavers.org> <4d780be0.4c8de50a.387b.63a3@mx.google.com> <4D7810EB.5090301@bitsavers.org> <20110309162247.A17858@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Hi, On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 1:30 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Could the problem be in gmail? ?If you are posting and reading through > gmail, . . . I am also using Gmail to read this list. > I've heard complaints that gmail will "recognize" ones posts, and delete, > under the assumption that you already know what you wrote. Well, Gmail doesn't do that for me - I see my own posts fine here. HTH -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From sean at conman.org Thu Mar 10 04:05:23 2011 From: sean at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 05:05:23 -0500 Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: <4D78508F.6020800@compsys.to> References: <4D78508F.6020800@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20110310100522.GB11985@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Jerome H. Fine once stated: > > Is it possible to find the md5 algorithm? I would like to run the code > under the E11 emulator to check files copied from the PC to determine if > they are still OK? I have found a number of web sites which discuss md5, > but none that have the actual algorithm. Hope you have a C compiler, because a reference implementation of MD5 in C can be found in RFC-1321 (http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1321.txt). -spc (It's not the best C code, but it does work) From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 13:19:26 2011 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 14:19:26 -0500 Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: References: <4D72C355.7020608@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 9:56 AM, SPC wrote: > HP-UX v5 would be a *VERY* cool find :-) It certainly would be, but given that it's pretty close to a vanilla System V port, I'm not sure if permission to actually distribute it could ever be obtained. Mike From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Mar 10 13:44:10 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 20:44:10 +0100 Subject: SUN Ultra 5 NVRAM In-Reply-To: <41FE74455DA3430B84971BF0B828A2F7@dell8300> References: <41FE74455DA3430B84971BF0B828A2F7@dell8300> Message-ID: <20110310204410.7f19dced.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 9 Mar 2011 18:24:24 -0500 "Teo Zenios" wrote: > (can they be reworked like a Dallas RTC chip?), Yes. I've done this several times. > and how do you reprogram them? First match of google search "sun nvram": http://www.squirrel.com/sun-nvram-hostid.faq.html -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 10 14:07:40 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 15:07:40 -0500 Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: <4D78E9F5.2000201@bitsavers.org> References: <4D77F606.2030309@bitsavers.org> <4D78E9F5.2000201@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4D792F8C.4070609@neurotica.com> On 3/10/11 10:10 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> You can get the best of both worlds by using a tape storage system >> with hardware level compression. > > Friends don't let friends store their archives on a media that requires > physical contact > with a read/write head. ROFL! What's your favorite data storage medium right now, Al? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 10 14:25:12 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 15:25:12 -0500 Subject: BIOS/Clock battery replacement In-Reply-To: <201103100337.p2A3baQ8032579@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> References: <201103100337.p2A3baQ8032579@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Message-ID: <4D7933A8.1050405@neurotica.com> On 3/9/11 10:37 PM, Hollandia at ccountry.net wrote: > One of my computers is a 486SX. The soldered-in battery is apparently > failing; after a period of power-off, the time is badly off at re-start. The > date and BIOS are so far unaffected. > > The motherboard has provision for an off-board battery. I am thinking of > using a socketed CR2032 battery which I believe is rated at 3 volts. The > manual for the computer describes the off-board battery as 3.6 volts. > > Is it asking for trouble to use a 3v rather than a 3.6v battery? If so, > where are the 3.6v batteries available? 3.6 is 3*1.2V, and 1.2V is the intrinsic cell voltage for several battery technologies, such as NiCd and NiMH. 3.6V is the intrinsic cell voltage for LiIon cells. Is the motherboard expecting to charge the battery? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 10 13:59:53 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 19:59:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: BIOS/Clock battery replacement In-Reply-To: <201103100337.p2A3baQ8032579@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> from "Hollandia@ccountry.net" at Mar 9, 11 07:37:47 pm Message-ID: > > One of my computers is a 486SX. The soldered-in battery is apparently > failing; after a period of power-off, the time is badly off at re-start. The > date and BIOS are so far unaffected. Yes, I think you're right. The battery still has enough voltage to keep the CMOS RAM contents preserved, but not enough to run the oscillator properly. So the time runs slow (if at all) when the machine is turned off. > > The motherboard has provision for an off-board battery. I am thinking of > using a socketed CR2032 battery which I believe is rated at 3 volts. The > manual for the computer describes the off-board battery as 3.6 volts. I assume the manual says toy can connect an external battery even with the soldered-in battery in place. It doesn't parallel them or anything daft does it (if so, the external battery will try to charge the on-board one with very unpleasant results). Actually, I'd remove the on-board battery anyway. If it's failing, it may strt to leak, and then you'll ahve bigger problems. is there any reason you can't jsut replace this battery with a similar (electricallly) one? If you do use the extranl battery connector, I would check that the motherboard doesn't try to charge the battery (attempting to charage a lithium coin cell is spectacualr, and you don't want to be near it. I think there's a youtube video of it...). Connect a voltmeter across the external bettery conenctor pins with the machine tunred on and check you get no voltage there. > > Is it asking for trouble to use a 3v rather than a 3.6v battery? If so, It won;t do any damage, but you may just see what you are seeingnow. The CMOS RAM data will be preserved, but the clock may not run. > where are the 3.6v batteries available? There is a type of lithium cell that's 3.6V. I seem to rememebr that some Macs used it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 10 14:36:32 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 20:36:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: from "SPC" at Mar 10, 11 03:56:21 pm Message-ID: > > HP-UX v5 would be a *VERY* cool find :-) I'd like to see it running on a real HP9836CU.... However, I think the multiForth (assuming that's what it sounds like) would be even more interesting. Unix machines are not uncommon, but Forth systems are... -tony From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Mar 10 15:10:04 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 13:10:04 -0800 Subject: BIOS/Clock battery replacement In-Reply-To: <4D7933A8.1050405@neurotica.com> References: <201103100337.p2A3baQ8032579@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> <4D7933A8.1050405@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <59cbcb6419717010d381d021f34891d0@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Mar 10, at 12:25 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 3/9/11 10:37 PM, Hollandia at ccountry.net wrote: >> One of my computers is a 486SX. The soldered-in battery is apparently >> failing; after a period of power-off, the time is badly off at >> re-start. The >> date and BIOS are so far unaffected. >> >> The motherboard has provision for an off-board battery. I am thinking >> of >> using a socketed CR2032 battery which I believe is rated at 3 volts. >> The >> manual for the computer describes the off-board battery as 3.6 volts. >> >> Is it asking for trouble to use a 3v rather than a 3.6v battery? If >> so, >> where are the 3.6v batteries available? > > 3.6 is 3*1.2V, and 1.2V is the intrinsic cell voltage for several > battery technologies, such as NiCd and NiMH. > > 3.6V is the intrinsic cell voltage for LiIon cells. > > Is the motherboard expecting to charge the battery? On occasion I have dealt with this by installing a 2 or 3 cell AA or AAA battery holder somewhere in the machine, well away from the electronics to avoid corrosion from leaking or off-gassing (behind the false front on some machines can be nice, or even on the back panel exterior). I then use junk alkaline AA or AAA cells which have been exhausted in use for things like flashlights and remote controls, as they can still have enough energy to run an RTC for a very long time. Alkaline cells have a very long shelf life, making them good for very-low-current requirements such as RTC and config-RAM maintentance. As others have said, a blocking diode may need to be installed to prevent 'charging' of the alkaline cells, but the 0.7V drop of the diode can be accounted for in the number of cells used. Typically for alkaline cells: 3 cells * 1.5V - 0.7V = 3.8V, with lots of room for droop from an old/used cell. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Mar 10 15:13:49 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 13:13:49 -0800 Subject: BIOS/Clock battery replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1d5ff3c425869d7c2d94a7deccff2c27@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Mar 10, at 11:59 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> where are the 3.6v batteries available? > > There is a type of lithium cell that's 3.6V. I seem to rememebr that > some > Macs used it. Yes, they (many Macs) did, they are half-AA size, but are rather expensive and relatively difficult to obtain. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 10 15:16:11 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 16:16:11 -0500 Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D793F9B.9090404@neurotica.com> On 3/10/11 3:36 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> HP-UX v5 would be a *VERY* cool find :-) > > I'd like to see it running on a real HP9836CU.... > > However, I think the multiForth (assuming that's what it sounds like) > would be even more interesting. Unix machines are not uncommon, but Forth > systems are... Not so; Forth systems are everywhere. Don't forget OpenFirmware! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 10 15:29:09 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 13:29:09 -0800 Subject: BIOS/Clock battery replacement In-Reply-To: <1d5ff3c425869d7c2d94a7deccff2c27@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <1d5ff3c425869d7c2d94a7deccff2c27@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4D78D225.30240.EF0862@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Mar 2011 at 13:13, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Yes, they (many Macs) did, they are half-AA size, but are rather > expensive and relatively difficult to obtain. Yup, some of the PowerMacs in partitular. Why not just replace it with a coin cell (CR2032s are almost a dime a dozen)? Is the current draw that great? --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Mar 10 15:50:22 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 13:50:22 -0800 Subject: BIOS/Clock battery replacement In-Reply-To: <4D78D225.30240.EF0862@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <1d5ff3c425869d7c2d94a7deccff2c27@cs.ubc.ca> <4D78D225.30240.EF0862@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5265df4aea91898b63f2db97514ec826@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Mar 10, at 1:29 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10 Mar 2011 at 13:13, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> Yes, they (many Macs) did, they are half-AA size, but are rather >> expensive and relatively difficult to obtain. > > Yup, some of the PowerMacs in partitular. Why not just replace it > with a coin cell (CR2032s are almost a dime a dozen)? Is the current > draw that great? And into the early iMacs. On some of the first iMacs the battery would only last a year or 2, and the machine would not boot when it failed, leaving one to go scrambling to source an oddball battery. Seemed to last longer in later versions. Today I might find an alternative solution rather than buy a new battery, but early iMacs are one machine it could be a little awkward to fit an alternative. From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 16:56:38 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 17:56:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: <4D78E9F5.2000201@bitsavers.org> References: <4D77F606.2030309@bitsavers.org> <4D78E9F5.2000201@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Mar 2011, Al Kossow wrote: > On 3/10/11 4:16 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > >> You can get the best of both worlds by using a tape storage system with >> hardware level compression. > > Friends don't let friends store their archives on a media that requires > physical contact > with a read/write head. Yow. That's hard-core! -- From legalize at xmission.com Thu Mar 10 17:07:39 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 16:07:39 -0700 Subject: 40 pin DIP chip tubes? Message-ID: Any idea where I can get some cheap? I'd like to store these 6805 chip pulls in something better than a plastic bag. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Mar 10 17:08:22 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 16:08:22 -0700 Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: References: <4D77F606.2030309@bitsavers.org> <4D78E9F5.2000201@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article , Steven Hirsch writes: > On Thu, 10 Mar 2011, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 3/10/11 4:16 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > > > >> You can get the best of both worlds by using a tape storage system with > >> hardware level compression. > > > > Friends don't let friends store their archives on a media that requires > > physical contact > > with a read/write head. > > Yow. That's hard-core! Not if you've seen a disc platter after a head crash. (Hi Rich! :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Mar 10 18:02:02 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 16:02:02 -0800 Subject: 40 pin DIP chip tubes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 3/10/11 3:07 PM, "Richard" wrote: > Any idea where I can get some cheap? I'd like to store these 6805 > chip pulls in something better than a plastic bag. Most of the electronics suppliers sell them. Digikey, mouser, unicorn, etc. What you want is the .600 dip sleeves/tubes. From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Mar 10 18:55:50 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 19:55:50 -0500 Subject: 40 pin DIP chip tubes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D797316.40808@atarimuseum.com> I've got tons, you pay the postage and you can have them all.... Richard wrote: > Any idea where I can get some cheap? I'd like to store these 6805 > chip pulls in something better than a plastic bag. > From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Mar 10 18:59:54 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 16:59:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Chip storage - Was: 40 pin DIP chip tubes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <141792.614.qm@web121618.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 3/10/11, Richard wrote: > Any idea where I can get some > cheap?? I'd like to store these 6805 > chip pulls in something better than a plastic bag. Speaking of chip storage, has anyone else noticed the annoying tendency of black anti-static foam to disintegrate and corrode the legs of the chips? -Ian From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Mar 10 19:01:02 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 17:01:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Chip storage - Was: 40 pin DIP chip tubes? In-Reply-To: <141792.614.qm@web121618.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <141792.614.qm@web121618.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Mar 2011, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Thu, 3/10/11, Richard wrote: > >> Any idea where I can get some >> cheap?? I'd like to store these 6805 >> chip pulls in something better than a plastic bag. > > Speaking of chip storage, has anyone else noticed the annoying tendency > of black anti-static foam to disintegrate and corrode the legs of the > chips? I've noticed disintegration, but not corrosion. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 10 19:02:38 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 20:02:38 -0500 Subject: 40 pin DIP chip tubes? In-Reply-To: <4D797316.40808@atarimuseum.com> References: <4D797316.40808@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4D7974AE.6030109@neurotica.com> I'll take any that he doesn't want.. -Dave On 3/10/11 7:55 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I've got tons, you pay the postage and you can have them all.... > > > > Richard wrote: >> Any idea where I can get some cheap? I'd like to store these 6805 >> chip pulls in something better than a plastic bag. -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 10 19:02:54 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 20:02:54 -0500 Subject: Chip storage - Was: 40 pin DIP chip tubes? In-Reply-To: <141792.614.qm@web121618.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <141792.614.qm@web121618.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D7974BE.8040106@neurotica.com> On 3/10/11 7:59 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> Any idea where I can get some cheap? I'd like to store these 6805 >> chip pulls in something better than a plastic bag. > > Speaking of chip storage, has anyone else noticed the annoying > tendency of black anti-static foam to disintegrate and corrode the > legs of the chips? Ohhhhh yes. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 10 19:05:54 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 20:05:54 -0500 Subject: Chip storage - Was: 40 pin DIP chip tubes? In-Reply-To: References: <141792.614.qm@web121618.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D797572.30506@neurotica.com> On 3/10/11 8:01 PM, David Griffith wrote: >>> Any idea where I can get some >>> cheap? I'd like to store these 6805 >>> chip pulls in something better than a plastic bag. >> >> Speaking of chip storage, has anyone else noticed the annoying >> tendency of black anti-static foam to disintegrate and corrode the >> legs of the chips? > > I've noticed disintegration, but not corrosion. Pin corrosion sets in a few years after the disintegration if the foam is left alone enough to stay intact. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Mar 10 19:19:22 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 17:19:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Chip storage - Was: 40 pin DIP chip tubes? In-Reply-To: <4D797572.30506@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <449710.24866.qm@web121607.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 3/10/11, Dave McGuire wrote: > > I've noticed disintegration, but not corrosion. > > ? Pin corrosion sets in a few years after the > disintegration if the foam is left alone enough to stay > intact. Yes, and it's especially bad on the ceramic packages with the fragile side-attached legs - not the ones that exit the package and then bend 90 degrees down, but the ones that are simply attached to the side of the chip body. Don't know what they're called or how better to describe it... But they seem to fare the worst, I've got a few early EPROMs where many of them simply fell off. But something much more annoying, that just happened to me (and prompted the post), was receiving a new, old stock Zilog prototyping part (microcontroller w/ piggyback EPROM socket) that I paid too much for, only to open the package and find it still neatly in it's original little promotional clamshell box. Stuck in that stupid foam. The legs are all still attached, but they're all black with corrosion. I sincerely hope that it will still make suitable contact with a socket. If not, I suppose I can solder it into a machine tooled socket, but... Grumble... -Ian From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Mar 10 19:19:20 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 01:19:20 +0000 Subject: Chip storage - Was: 40 pin DIP chip tubes? In-Reply-To: <4D7974BE.8040106@neurotica.com> References: <141792.614.qm@web121618.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4D7974BE.8040106@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D797898.4060307@philpem.me.uk> On 11/03/11 01:02, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 3/10/11 7:59 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> Speaking of chip storage, has anyone else noticed the annoying >> tendency of black anti-static foam to disintegrate and corrode the >> legs of the chips? > > Ohhhhh yes. :-( One of the many reasons I'm glad I switched to >90% surface mount. No holes to drill, and no need for ESD foam! -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 19:43:23 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 20:43:23 -0500 Subject: 40 pin DIP chip tubes? In-Reply-To: <4D797316.40808@atarimuseum.com> References: <4D797316.40808@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: > I've got tons, you pay the postage and you can have them all.... Perhaps give them to me, and I can deliver them, then Richard can buy me a beer. -- Will From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Mar 10 19:52:46 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 20:52:46 -0500 Subject: 40 pin DIP chip tubes? In-Reply-To: References: <4D797316.40808@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4D79806E.2010207@atarimuseum.com> Well, why don't you, me, Ian and anyone else close by setup a date/time and lets go out for steaks or something, go grab some beers and hang out and talk shop and make a geek night of it... William Donzelli wrote: >> I've got tons, you pay the postage and you can have them all.... >> > > Perhaps give them to me, and I can deliver them, then Richard can buy me a beer. > > -- > Will > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 10 19:54:03 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 20:54:03 -0500 Subject: Chip storage - Was: 40 pin DIP chip tubes? In-Reply-To: <4D797898.4060307@philpem.me.uk> References: <141792.614.qm@web121618.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4D7974BE.8040106@neurotica.com> <4D797898.4060307@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D7980BB.3030405@neurotica.com> On 3/10/11 8:19 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: >>> Speaking of chip storage, has anyone else noticed the annoying >>> tendency of black anti-static foam to disintegrate and corrode the >>> legs of the chips? >> >> Ohhhhh yes. :-( > > One of the many reasons I'm glad I switched to >90% surface mount. No > holes to drill, and no need for ESD foam! I'm right there with you on that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 19:56:29 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 20:56:29 -0500 Subject: 40 pin DIP chip tubes? In-Reply-To: <4D79806E.2010207@atarimuseum.com> References: <4D797316.40808@atarimuseum.com> <4D79806E.2010207@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: > Well, why don't you, me, Ian and anyone else close by setup a date/time and > lets go out for steaks or something, go grab some beers and hang out and > talk shop and make a geek night of it... Well, we have had this plan for a few years now. What we need to do is just pick a date and stick to it, damn the torpedoes. Probably something near Poughkeepsie would be reasonably centralized. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 10 19:58:59 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 20:58:59 -0500 Subject: 40 pin DIP chip tubes? In-Reply-To: References: <4D797316.40808@atarimuseum.com> <4D79806E.2010207@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4D7981E3.3070308@neurotica.com> On 3/10/11 8:56 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Well, why don't you, me, Ian and anyone else close by setup a date/time and >> lets go out for steaks or something, go grab some beers and hang out and >> talk shop and make a geek night of it... > > Well, we have had this plan for a few years now. What we need to do is > just pick a date and stick to it, damn the torpedoes. Probably > something near Poughkeepsie would be reasonably centralized. Might wanna wait until Sridhar gets back from India.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 10 20:30:09 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 21:30:09 -0500 Subject: Chip storage - Was: 40 pin DIP chip tubes? In-Reply-To: <449710.24866.qm@web121607.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <449710.24866.qm@web121607.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D798931.7010604@neurotica.com> On 3/10/11 8:19 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> Pin corrosion sets in a few years after the disintegration if the >> foam is left alone enough to stay intact. > > Yes, and it's especially bad on the ceramic packages with the fragile > side-attached legs - not the ones that exit the package and then bend > 90 degrees down, but the ones that are simply attached to the side of > the chip body. Don't know what they're called or how better to > describe it... The term you're looking for is "side brazed". > But something much more annoying, that just happened to me (and > prompted the post), was receiving a new, old stock Zilog prototyping > part (microcontroller w/ piggyback EPROM socket) that I paid too much > for, only to open the package and find it still neatly in it's > original little promotional clamshell box. Stuck in that stupid foam. > The legs are all still attached, but they're all black with > corrosion. I sincerely hope that it will still make suitable contact > with a socket. If not, I suppose I can solder it into a machine > tooled socket, but... Grumble... Ugh!! Was it perhaps a Z8603 or Z8613? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 10 20:57:56 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 21:57:56 -0500 Subject: Heath H-1 analog computer In-Reply-To: References: <4D73FF3E.7020904@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D798FB4.3080701@neurotica.com> On 3/7/11 7:44 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > I'm glad you didn't drive all that way for an EC-1. Yes. :) I'd love an EC-1, but they're much easier to ship than an H-1. > You'll most likely want to aquire a couple other pieces. > A XY plotter and a XY storage scope. > I have a HP 7044 to plot with and a Nicolet oscilloscope 2090 w/ 206 front end. > These come in real handy. I am swimming in oscilloscopes. Seriously, I think I have over thirty oscilloscopes now. I think I have a problem. ;) I have a few Nicolet digitizing scopes, and I have a nice Tek RM561A that should be a nice fit for the H-1 in repetitive mode. With the H-1, I got a Heath IR-18M chart recorder. It's not functional; I've gotta find schematics for it and see what's up. Though it's mechanically free, the pen carriage won't move at all under electronic control. I have an HP 7090A plotter (wonderful device by the way, have you seen it?) that will be nice to use with this. I'd really like to find one of the ancient pure analog X/Y plotters from HP to run the H-1 into. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 10 20:58:37 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 21:58:37 -0500 Subject: Heath H-1 analog computer In-Reply-To: <831392.49611.qm@web82605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <831392.49611.qm@web82605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D798FDD.3030001@neurotica.com> On 3/8/11 3:35 AM, William Maddox wrote: > I saw this on ebay: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Computer-Flyer-Heathkit-Analog-Ham-Radio-/300533653637?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45f933a085 Thanks for the heads-up Will; I have a copy of this already. One came along with the H-1's docs. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Mar 10 21:00:18 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 19:00:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Chip storage - Was: 40 pin DIP chip tubes? In-Reply-To: <4D798931.7010604@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <958478.95396.qm@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 3/10/11, Dave McGuire wrote: > ? The term you're looking for is "side brazed". > Ah hah. Yeah, I knew there had to be a term for it :D > > ? Ugh!!? Was it perhaps a Z8603 or Z8613? Z8603. I'd been looking for one for a while, and I broke down and bought one when I had a chance to get a NOS one. I should have sought out a used pull. -Ian From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Mar 10 21:06:21 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 19:06:21 -0800 Subject: Chip storage - Was: 40 pin DIP chip tubes? In-Reply-To: <449710.24866.qm@web121607.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <449710.24866.qm@web121607.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D7991AD.2000409@brouhaha.com> Ian wrote: > Yes, and it's especially bad on the ceramic packages with the > fragile side-attached legs - not the ones that exit the package > and then bend 90 degrees down, but the ones that are simply > attached to the side of the chip body. Don't know what they're > called or how better to describe it... "Side-brazed". However, when the leads break off or fall off due to corrosion, at least you can (relatively) easily come up with a replacement. When the leads break off of a DIP with a normal lead frame, it often is right at or even inside the point that the lead exits the package body, and is much more difficult to replace. Through carelessness with a logic analyzer probe I accidentally broke off a lead from an ASIC in an old system, and there was no way to get a replacement other than to buy another used machine. A friend surprised me by succeeding at repairing it with conductive epoxy. Eric From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 10 21:10:27 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 22:10:27 -0500 Subject: Chip storage - Was: 40 pin DIP chip tubes? In-Reply-To: <958478.95396.qm@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <958478.95396.qm@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D7992A3.8090802@neurotica.com> On 3/10/11 10:00 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> Ugh!! Was it perhaps a Z8603 or Z8613? > > Z8603. I'd been looking for one for a while, and I broke down and > bought one when I had a chance to get a NOS one. I should have sought > out a used pull. I have at least one tube of either Z8603 or Z8613 (uses bigger EPROMs) chips left, not sure which, NOS, no corrosion. I'm still in WV...I'll make a note to check when I'm back in FL, and will send you one. Send me your shipping address in private mail when you have a chance. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Mar 10 21:12:09 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 19:12:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Chip storage - Was: 40 pin DIP chip tubes? In-Reply-To: <4D7991AD.2000409@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <748409.74416.qm@web121619.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 3/10/11, Eric Smith wrote: > "Side-brazed". > > However, when the leads break off or fall off due to > corrosion, at least you can (relatively) easily come up with > a replacement.? When the leads break off of a DIP with > a normal lead frame, it often is right at or even inside the > point that the lead exits the package body, and is much more > difficult to replace. Through carelessness with a logic > analyzer probe I accidentally broke off a lead from an ASIC > in an old system, and there was no way to get a replacement > other than to buy another used machine. A friend surprised > me by succeeding at repairing it with conductive epoxy. > On plastic DIP package chips, you can get away with chipping away at the plastic package itself, since the actual die is very tiny - most of the chip is simply plastic and leadframe. You can chisel back a bit, and get some metal to solder to. I've had to do this on Namco custom chips used on 80's arcade games, where the legs corrode and fall off. In that case, it's crummy materials that corrode, not environmental problems. -Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 10 22:39:01 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 23:39:01 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 hiding? Message-ID: <4D79A765.50101@neurotica.com> Hey folks. Check out eBay #310298743467. Is that a TRS-80 Model I hiding inside the bottom front of that scan controller? It sure looks like one to me. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu Mar 10 23:14:35 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 21:14:35 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 hiding? In-Reply-To: <4D79A765.50101@neurotica.com> References: <4D79A765.50101@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D79AFBB.1080907@mail.msu.edu> On 3/10/2011 8:39 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Hey folks. Check out eBay #310298743467. Is that a TRS-80 Model I > hiding inside the bottom front of that scan controller? It sure looks > like one to me. > > -Dave > Yeah, that's definitely what it is, with the numeric keypad option. Verrry interesting... Josh From evan at snarc.net Fri Mar 11 02:12:22 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 03:12:22 -0500 Subject: A first for the VCF ..... epic technical poetry! Message-ID: <4D79D966.4060305@snarc.net> On the Day #2 of the VCF East 7.0 (Sunday, May 15), there will be something new and different -- folk singer Mike Agranoff will perform his 1987 epic poem "The Ballad of Captain Crunch" and other technical-themed works. Really! VCF East site: http://www.vintage.org/2011/east VCF on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/vcfeast7 (please 'like' us there) From spedraja at ono.com Fri Mar 11 02:12:36 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 09:12:36 +0100 Subject: New year finds Message-ID: Having in mind the recent mention in this list of one rare TRS-80 in eBay... I'm searching for ONE or a COUPLE of these items in this new year. * One Tandy 16 with Xenix * One unibus PDP-11 (35, 40, 45, 70...) to run early Unix family versions * One HP1000, 2000 or 3000 * One AT&T 3B2. I got one 3b1 and one 3b2/400, but this last in near to go down and need a replacement. * Xenix for the Altos 586, better in floppy format. I got one system but ist Xenix kernel is damaged. The rest is operative. * MP/M in 8" floppied for one Altos... 5-15 or 8000 ? I'm not sure about the model nor the terminal that it needs (VT-220 would be fine?) * One BA80 monitor for one compact (and funny) Nixdorf 8870. I got too one PDP-8/E needed of some boards to be operative, but it can wait by now. All in the most compact but operative versions available (not the monitor, of course). I have space available for them, but not in excess. All of them in the EU (European Union) area. Sergio From fomelbournern at bell.net Thu Mar 10 15:53:48 2011 From: fomelbournern at bell.net (Ray Melbourne) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 16:53:48 -0500 Subject: Commodore 1902-A Monitor In-Reply-To: WorldClient-F200508110625.AA25230454@officereach.net Message-ID: Is the 1902 still available I am interested Ray fomelbournern at bell.net From julianskidmore at yahoo.com Thu Mar 10 16:49:06 2011 From: julianskidmore at yahoo.com (Julian Skidmore) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 14:49:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs (6809) Message-ID: <364168.1834.qm@web120217.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi folks, > > At 23:56 -0600 3/7/11, Jules wrote: > >Yes, that seems to be the 'famous' one that gets mentioned everywhere. > > It > >seems it was of the shift-add variety. Anyone recall if it would work > > with > >signed integers? (I'm just trying to work out how the math works for > > signed multiplies at the moment) Mark Tapley wrote: > MUL is unsigned arithmetic only. Actually this isn't *quite* true. An n x n bit unsigned multiplier producing a 2n bit result also produces the correct signed results for the bottom n bits. Thus the 6809's MUL instruction produces the correct answer to A = -20 * B = -3 as it will store -60 in the B register. The reason is because with the n x n bit multiplier multiplying a * b, where b is -ve => a* ((2^n) - (-b) ) = a*(2^n) + a*b = a*b since a*(2^n) doesn't contribute to to the lower n bits. Consider a 2-bit multiplier dealing with the -ve * -ve and -ve * +ve cases: 01 * 10 = 0010, = -2 correct. 01 * 11 = 0011, = -1 correct. 10 * 10 = 0100, = 0 correct. 10 * 11 = 0110, = 2 (or -2) correct. 11 * 11 = 1001, = 1 correct. -cheers from julz From fomelbournern at bell.net Thu Mar 10 19:55:27 2011 From: fomelbournern at bell.net (Ray Melbourne) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 20:55:27 -0500 Subject: Commodore 1902-A Monitor In-Reply-To: WorldClient-F200508110625.AA25230454@officereach.net Message-ID: I am interested in obtaining a commodore 1902 monitor From oe5ewl at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 05:01:31 2011 From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 12:01:31 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 Operating Systems Message-ID: Hi everyone, You may have noticed in the pdp11 usenet groups that over some time I have collected a nice bunch of PPD-11 OSes in various versions (this takes less space, I have to deal with some kind of space restrictions at the moment). From time to time I tend to put online what I have found (please see 5ewl.blogspot.com if you want). There are some well known archives out there in the internet, but some OSes mentioned in the PDP-11 faq and other sources are kinda hiding from me. Let's start here: As I was reading the Ersatz-11 documentation file I stumbled upon "Fox 2/30 OS". Does anyone now something about this OS? Did any copies of this system or documentation and software survive? The only reference I have found so far since I read the Ersatz-11 docs is here: http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Foxboro/Foxboro.Fox... (can't look at this file at the moment as I am on a slooooow internet connection). All I found out is there's a strong focus on process control in this system as well at it should be some kind of OEM. Another OS I am currently looking for is CAPS-11. It is mentioned at some points, but I could find almost no documentation, definately no sources or tape images. Much of the other OSes I've got in my little list are missing the early versions. It would be a pleasure to see these showing up somewhere and making them available for the interested Enthusiasts. I saw discussions about licensing and property issues about some other OSes too (like DSM). They seem to be stucked at some point, hopefully these OSes don't get lost sometime. Here's a little sum-up about Systems I didn't came across so far: CAPS-11, CTS-300 and -500, DSM-11, DURESS, GAMMA-11, HT-11, MERTS, Micropower Pascal, MONECS, MTS, PC-11, RUST/XM, SPHERE, TRAX If you have any information about the Operating Systems mentioned in this message or can help out with disk images, disks, sources etc. I'd greatly appreciate if you'd drop a line. Have a good start into the weekend, Wolfgang -- Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL Operating System Collector Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com Homepage: www.eichberger.org From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Mar 11 07:23:08 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 08:23:08 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 Operating Systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D7A223C.2050600@verizon.net> On 03/11/2011 06:01 AM, Wolfgang Eichberger wrote: > Hi everyone, > > You may have noticed in the pdp11 usenet groups that over some time I > have collected a nice bunch of PPD-11 OSes in various versions (this > takes less space, I have to deal with some kind of space restrictions > at the moment). From time to time I tend to put online what I have > found (please see 5ewl.blogspot.com if you want). > > There are some well known archives out there in the internet, but some > OSes mentioned in the PDP-11 faq and other sources are kinda hiding > from me. > > Let's start here: As I was reading the Ersatz-11 documentation file I > stumbled upon "Fox 2/30 OS". > > Does anyone now something about this OS? Did any copies of this system > or documentation and software survive? The only reference I have > found so far since I read the Ersatz-11 docs is here: > http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Foxboro/Foxboro.Fox... > (can't look at this file at the moment as I am on a slooooow internet > connection). All I found out is there's a strong focus on process > control in this system as well at it should be some kind of OEM. > > Another OS I am currently looking for is CAPS-11. It is mentioned at > some points, but I could find almost no documentation, definately no > sources or tape images. > > Much of the other OSes I've got in my little list are missing the > early versions. It would be a pleasure to see these showing up > somewhere and making them available for the interested Enthusiasts. I > saw discussions about licensing and property issues about some other > OSes too (like DSM). They seem to be stucked at some point, hopefully > these OSes don't get lost sometime. > > Here's a little sum-up about Systems I didn't came across so far: > CAPS-11, CTS-300 and -500, DSM-11, DURESS, GAMMA-11, HT-11, MERTS, > Micropower Pascal, MONECS, MTS, PC-11, RUST/XM, SPHERE, TRAX > HT-11 is RT11 SJ V2 with mods for drivers to match the Heath H11 Computer (mainly the floppy). So if you have RT11 you have ht11. A few of those I've never heard of. Allison > If you have any information about the Operating Systems mentioned in > this message or can help out with disk images, disks, sources etc. I'd > greatly appreciate if you'd drop a line. > > Have a good start into the weekend, > Wolfgang > > -- > Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL > Operating System Collector > Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com > Homepage: www.eichberger.org > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Mar 11 07:55:50 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 14:55:50 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 Operating Systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110311135550.GA10343@Update.UU.SE> On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 12:01:31PM +0100, Wolfgang Eichberger wrote: > Here's a little sum-up about Systems I didn't came across so far: > CAPS-11, CTS-300 and -500, DSM-11, DURESS, GAMMA-11, HT-11, MERTS, > Micropower Pascal, MONECS, MTS, PC-11, RUST/XM, SPHERE, TRAX At some point I would like to find GAMMA-11 since I have most parts of such a system. According to this site (which I'm sured you have seen): http://www.village.org/pdp11/faq.pages/pdpOSes.html GAMMA-11 is an RT-11 based OS. One might speculate that it was RT-11 with drivers for the graphics(vector) hardware and software for image aquisition and analysis. I got a bunch of RL01 and RL02 disc packs with the system but I don't think the system software was on any of them :( /Pontus. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Mar 11 08:35:45 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 06:35:45 -0800 Subject: Heath H-1 analog computer In-Reply-To: <4D798FB4.3080701@neurotica.com> References: <4D73FF3E.7020904@neurotica.com>, , <4D798FB4.3080701@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > > On 3/7/11 7:44 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > I'm glad you didn't drive all that way for an EC-1. > > Yes. :) I'd love an EC-1, but they're much easier to ship than an H-1. > > > You'll most likely want to aquire a couple other pieces. > > A XY plotter and a XY storage scope. > > I have a HP 7044 to plot with and a Nicolet oscilloscope 2090 w/ 206 front end. > > These come in real handy. > > I am swimming in oscilloscopes. Seriously, I think I have over > thirty oscilloscopes now. I think I have a problem. ;) I have a few > Nicolet digitizing scopes, and I have a nice Tek RM561A that should be a > nice fit for the H-1 in repetitive mode. Hi Dave I'm not familiar with the 561. Although, the Nicolet doesn't have enough dot storage to do X/Y well, It is handy to use the digital scale magnification to set things like intergrator drift or balancing Sine/Cosine oscillators for zero gain/loss. The 561 is a persistance(sp?) scope as I recall and should be a nice complement to the digital scope. > > With the H-1, I got a Heath IR-18M chart recorder. It's not > functional; I've gotta find schematics for it and see what's up. Though > it's mechanically free, the pen carriage won't move at all under > electronic control. It is most likely the final driver circuit or the motor that runs the pen. If it is the motor, before giving up, check the brushes. > > I have an HP 7090A plotter (wonderful device by the way, have you > seen it?) that will be nice to use with this. I'd really like to find > one of the ancient pure analog X/Y plotters from HP to run the H-1 into. Watch for the 7044's on ebay. They come up every now and then. They are considered ( for there time ) to be high speed. It just is right on the edge for slow simulations for speed. A slower plotter would not be a practical. Dwight From dgahling at hotmail.com Fri Mar 11 09:37:03 2011 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 10:37:03 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 Operating Systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I really wish Jerome Fine would get off his butt and boot that damn PDP-11I gave him and tell me what OS is on it. I've only been waiting several years for him to boot the darn thing. Dan. > From: oe5ewl at gmail.com > Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 12:01:31 +0100 > Subject: PDP-11 Operating Systems > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Hi everyone, > > You may have noticed in the pdp11 usenet groups that over some time I > have collected a nice bunch of PPD-11 OSes in various versions (this > takes less space, I have to deal with some kind of space restrictions > at the moment). From time to time I tend to put online what I have > found (please see 5ewl.blogspot.com if you want). > > There are some well known archives out there in the internet, but some > OSes mentioned in the PDP-11 faq and other sources are kinda hiding > from me. > > Let's start here: As I was reading the Ersatz-11 documentation file I > stumbled upon "Fox 2/30 OS". > > Does anyone now something about this OS? Did any copies of this system > or documentation and software survive? The only reference I have > found so far since I read the Ersatz-11 docs is here: > http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Foxboro/Foxboro.Fox... > (can't look at this file at the moment as I am on a slooooow internet > connection). All I found out is there's a strong focus on process > control in this system as well at it should be some kind of OEM. > > Another OS I am currently looking for is CAPS-11. It is mentioned at > some points, but I could find almost no documentation, definately no > sources or tape images. > > Much of the other OSes I've got in my little list are missing the > early versions. It would be a pleasure to see these showing up > somewhere and making them available for the interested Enthusiasts. I > saw discussions about licensing and property issues about some other > OSes too (like DSM). They seem to be stucked at some point, hopefully > these OSes don't get lost sometime. > > Here's a little sum-up about Systems I didn't came across so far: > CAPS-11, CTS-300 and -500, DSM-11, DURESS, GAMMA-11, HT-11, MERTS, > Micropower Pascal, MONECS, MTS, PC-11, RUST/XM, SPHERE, TRAX > > If you have any information about the Operating Systems mentioned in > this message or can help out with disk images, disks, sources etc. I'd > greatly appreciate if you'd drop a line. > > Have a good start into the weekend, > Wolfgang > > -- > Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL > Operating System Collector > Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com > Homepage: www.eichberger.org From legalize at xmission.com Fri Mar 11 10:45:56 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 09:45:56 -0700 Subject: 40 pin DIP chip tubes? In-Reply-To: References: <4D797316.40808@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > > I've got tons, you pay the postage and you can have them all.... > > Perhaps give them to me, and I can deliver them, then Richard can buy me a be er. Of course I'll buy you a beer in any event when you're in town, but giving me some chip carrier tubes in return would be wonderful :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From oe5ewl at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 11:59:45 2011 From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 18:59:45 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 Operating Systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you all for the infos. Didn't really know the details of HT-11 and GAMMA-11. Both would be nice findings (at least for historical interests..). MINITS sounds interesting too, I'll start my recherches. Do you have any details Phil? Regards, Wolfgang ps: I hope you'll see some progress soon Dan! -- Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL Operating System Collector Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com Homepage: www.eichberger.org 2011/3/11 Dan Gahlinger : > > I really wish Jerome Fine would get off his butt and boot that damn PDP-11I gave him and tell me what OS is on it. > I've only been waiting several years for him to boot the darn thing. > Dan. > >> From: oe5ewl at gmail.com >> Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 12:01:31 +0100 >> Subject: PDP-11 Operating Systems >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> >> Hi everyone, >> >> You may have noticed in the pdp11 usenet groups that over some time I >> have collected a nice bunch of PPD-11 OSes in various versions (this >> takes less space, I have to deal with some kind of space restrictions >> at the moment). From time to time I tend to put online what I have >> found (please see 5ewl.blogspot.com if you want). >> >> There are some well known archives out there in the internet, but some >> OSes mentioned in the PDP-11 faq and other sources are kinda hiding >> from me. >> >> Let's start here: As I was reading the Ersatz-11 documentation file I >> stumbled upon "Fox 2/30 OS". >> >> Does anyone now something about this OS? Did any copies of this system >> or documentation and software survive? ?The only reference I have >> found so far since I read the Ersatz-11 docs is here: >> http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Foxboro/Foxboro.Fox... >> (can't look at this file at the moment as I am on a slooooow internet >> connection). All I found out is there's a strong focus on process >> control in this system as well at it should be some kind of OEM. >> >> Another OS I am currently looking for is CAPS-11. It is mentioned at >> some points, but I could find almost no documentation, definately no >> sources or tape images. >> >> Much of the other OSes I've got in my little list are missing the >> early versions. It would be a pleasure to see these showing up >> somewhere and making them available for the interested Enthusiasts. I >> saw discussions about licensing and property issues about some other >> OSes too (like DSM). They seem to be stucked at some point, hopefully >> these OSes don't get lost sometime. >> >> Here's a little sum-up about Systems I didn't came across so far: >> CAPS-11, CTS-300 and -500, DSM-11, DURESS, GAMMA-11, HT-11, MERTS, >> Micropower Pascal, MONECS, MTS, PC-11, RUST/XM, SPHERE, TRAX >> >> If you have any information about the Operating Systems mentioned in >> this message or can help out with disk images, disks, sources etc. I'd >> greatly appreciate if you'd drop a line. >> >> Have a good start into the weekend, >> ?Wolfgang >> >> -- >> Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL >> Operating System Collector >> Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com >> Homepage: www.eichberger.org > From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Mar 11 12:30:25 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 10:30:25 -0800 Subject: PDP-11 Operating Systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: DSM-11 is Digital Standard MUMPS for the PDP-11. It's effectively a multiuser database with a programming language; the implementation is persistent sparse arrays. The original MUMPS language was developed on the PDP-7 and ported to numerous machines. DSM is also available for VAX, although it is not included in the hobbyist PAK set. :-( MUMPS was not just a programming language but an operating environment sitting on bare metal. We have an RL pack that's labeled DSM-11 but I haven't yet cleaned it up and mounted it. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Wolfgang Eichberger [oe5ewl at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 3:01 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: PDP-11 Operating Systems Hi everyone, You may have noticed in the pdp11 usenet groups that over some time I have collected a nice bunch of PPD-11 OSes in various versions (this takes less space, I have to deal with some kind of space restrictions at the moment). From time to time I tend to put online what I have found (please see 5ewl.blogspot.com if you want). There are some well known archives out there in the internet, but some OSes mentioned in the PDP-11 faq and other sources are kinda hiding from me. Let's start here: As I was reading the Ersatz-11 documentation file I stumbled upon "Fox 2/30 OS". Does anyone now something about this OS? Did any copies of this system or documentation and software survive? The only reference I have found so far since I read the Ersatz-11 docs is here: http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Foxboro/Foxboro.Fox... (can't look at this file at the moment as I am on a slooooow internet connection). All I found out is there's a strong focus on process control in this system as well at it should be some kind of OEM. Another OS I am currently looking for is CAPS-11. It is mentioned at some points, but I could find almost no documentation, definately no sources or tape images. Much of the other OSes I've got in my little list are missing the early versions. It would be a pleasure to see these showing up somewhere and making them available for the interested Enthusiasts. I saw discussions about licensing and property issues about some other OSes too (like DSM). They seem to be stucked at some point, hopefully these OSes don't get lost sometime. Here's a little sum-up about Systems I didn't came across so far: CAPS-11, CTS-300 and -500, DSM-11, DURESS, GAMMA-11, HT-11, MERTS, Micropower Pascal, MONECS, MTS, PC-11, RUST/XM, SPHERE, TRAX If you have any information about the Operating Systems mentioned in this message or can help out with disk images, disks, sources etc. I'd greatly appreciate if you'd drop a line. Have a good start into the weekend, Wolfgang -- Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL Operating System Collector Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com Homepage: www.eichberger.org From spedraja at ono.com Fri Mar 11 12:55:17 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 19:55:17 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 Operating Systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: YEARS searching for DSM-11. I use one PC version and one more open source development, but I should like to put my hands in the PDP-11 version, of course. Sergio 2011/3/11 Ian King > DSM-11 is Digital Standard MUMPS for the PDP-11. It's effectively a > multiuser database with a programming language; the implementation is > persistent sparse arrays. The original MUMPS language was developed on the > PDP-7 and ported to numerous machines. DSM is also available for VAX, > although it is not included in the hobbyist PAK set. :-( > > MUMPS was not just a programming language but an operating environment > sitting on bare metal. > > We have an RL pack that's labeled DSM-11 but I haven't yet cleaned it up > and mounted it. -- Ian > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On > Behalf Of Wolfgang Eichberger [oe5ewl at gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 3:01 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: PDP-11 Operating Systems > > Hi everyone, > > You may have noticed in the pdp11 usenet groups that over some time I > have collected a nice bunch of PPD-11 OSes in various versions (this > takes less space, I have to deal with some kind of space restrictions > at the moment). From time to time I tend to put online what I have > found (please see 5ewl.blogspot.com if you want). > > There are some well known archives out there in the internet, but some > OSes mentioned in the PDP-11 faq and other sources are kinda hiding > from me. > > Let's start here: As I was reading the Ersatz-11 documentation file I > stumbled upon "Fox 2/30 OS". > > Does anyone now something about this OS? Did any copies of this system > or documentation and software survive? The only reference I have > found so far since I read the Ersatz-11 docs is here: > http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Foxboro/Foxboro.Fox... > (can't look at this file at the moment as I am on a slooooow internet > connection). All I found out is there's a strong focus on process > control in this system as well at it should be some kind of OEM. > > Another OS I am currently looking for is CAPS-11. It is mentioned at > some points, but I could find almost no documentation, definately no > sources or tape images. > > Much of the other OSes I've got in my little list are missing the > early versions. It would be a pleasure to see these showing up > somewhere and making them available for the interested Enthusiasts. I > saw discussions about licensing and property issues about some other > OSes too (like DSM). They seem to be stucked at some point, hopefully > these OSes don't get lost sometime. > > Here's a little sum-up about Systems I didn't came across so far: > CAPS-11, CTS-300 and -500, DSM-11, DURESS, GAMMA-11, HT-11, MERTS, > Micropower Pascal, MONECS, MTS, PC-11, RUST/XM, SPHERE, TRAX > > If you have any information about the Operating Systems mentioned in > this message or can help out with disk images, disks, sources etc. I'd > greatly appreciate if you'd drop a line. > > Have a good start into the weekend, > Wolfgang > > -- > Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL > Operating System Collector > Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com > Homepage: www.eichberger.org > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 13:04:04 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 14:04:04 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 Operating Systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 1:55 PM, SPC wrote: > YEARS searching for DSM-11. > > I use one PC version and one more open source development, but I should like > to put my hands in the PDP-11 version, of course. I touched it once, about 23 years ago, literally as I was heading out the door for a camping holiday. I worked as a hardware technician for a guy who did random DEC consulting and some PC work - whatever came in the door. That August day in 1988, what came in the door on a Friday at 15:00 was a PDP-11/53 with a failing hard drive. The two of us puzzled out how to install a second drive on the machine and convince Mumps to prep it (filesystem-level format) then copy the contents from the failing RD53 (big surprise there) to the new RD53. Fortunately, we got things hooked up and spinning and I was on my way. I remember some light buzz at various 1980s DECUS symposia about DSM-11, but IIRC, it had a niche in medical and dental offices, so with one exception, I never saw it in the real world. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 11 13:24:51 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 14:24:51 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 Operating Systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D7A7703.6020108@neurotica.com> On 3/11/11 2:04 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I remember some light buzz at various 1980s DECUS symposia about > DSM-11, but IIRC, it had a niche in medical and dental offices, so > with one exception, I never saw it in the real world. The only MUMPS installations I've ever heard of were medical. I seem to recall DEC actually marketing it pretty hard in that area. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 11 13:15:01 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 19:15:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: <4D793F9B.9090404@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Mar 10, 11 04:16:11 pm Message-ID: > > However, I think the multiForth (assuming that's what it sounds like) > > would be even more interesting. Unix machines are not uncommon, but Forth > > systems are... > > Not so; Forth systems are everywhere. Don't forget OpenFirmware! OOpps... I missed those :-) But I still suspect there are more machines running Unix than machines with OpenFirmware :-) In any case, I think the multiForth system could be more intereting than HPUX. At that time, unix did not normally support loadable device drivers, and since the manufactuered ddin't ship the kernel sources, you were pretty much resrciuted to what the manufactuers expected in terms of availabl devices. Trying to use homebrew hardware is a decided problem.... On the other hand, a forth system is very likely to let you do jsut what you want to the bare metal. Certainly o the PERQ, I find POS to be a lot more intersting than PNS (PERQ Unix) basically for thsi reason. Althouh, yes, I would be interested in any software for the HP9000/200 machines. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 11 13:16:55 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 19:16:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 40 pin DIP chip tubes? In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Mar 10, 11 04:07:39 pm Message-ID: > > Any idea where I can get some cheap? I'd like to store these 6805 > chip pulls in something better than a plastic bag. I hope that's an _antistatic_ plastic bag, or yuou may well have already damaged them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 11 13:18:17 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 19:18:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Mar 10, 11 04:08:22 pm Message-ID: > > > Friends don't let friends store their archives on a media that requires > > > physical contact > > > with a read/write head. > > > > Yow. That's hard-core! > > Not if you've seen a disc platter after a head crash. (Hi Rich! :-) Since whehen has a hard drive required physical ocntact between the media and the read/write head? In fact it's when such contact takes place that uyou have problems ;-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 11 14:01:45 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 20:01:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP-11 Operating Systems In-Reply-To: <20110311135550.GA10343@Update.UU.SE> from "Pontus Pihlgren" at Mar 11, 11 02:55:50 pm Message-ID: > GAMMA-11 is an RT-11 based OS. One might speculate that it was RT-11 > with drivers for the graphics(vector) hardware and software for image > aquisition and analysis. I did once repair a GAMMA-11 system that was still in use (in a vet (animal medicine) department). The problem was with the RL11 controller, so I didn't have to investigate any of the odd stuff. I do rememebr there bign both Unibus and Qbus boards in it, with a DW11B linking the latter to the CPU's unibus. One of the expansion boxes had both Unbius and Qbus backplanes in it... Anyway, the OS seemed to be RT11. There must have been speacial drivers, and control progrmas for the system. But I am almost sure it was built on top of a nroaml RT11 system. -tony From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Mar 11 14:23:35 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 12:23:35 -0800 Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: References: from "Richard" at Mar 10, 11 04:08:22 pm Message-ID: From: Tony Duell Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 11:18 AM >>>> Friends don't let friends store their archives on a media that >>>> requires physical contact with a read/write head. >>> Yow. That's hard-core! >> Not if you've seen a disc platter after a head crash. (Hi Rich! :-) > Since whehen has a hard drive required physical ocntact between the media > and the read/write head? Hard drives do not, although floppy drives do. In any case, the original statement was in the context of magnetic tape as a preservation medium. (I think that was Al Kossow.) Mag tape also requires physical contact between head and medium. > In fact it's when such contact takes place that uyou have problems ;-) And that's what Richard (to whom you were responding--I really wish you'd include identifiers in your quoted material) was talking about. He was here at the museum last Friday, and saw our little set piece for visitors about storage media, which includes an RP06P disk pack that underwent a massive head crash. There are 5 or 6 platters with large bare-to-the-aluminum rings on them. We tell the visitors (truthfully) that we never found all the bits of the heads which crashed. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From legalize at xmission.com Fri Mar 11 14:48:53 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 13:48:53 -0700 Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: References: from "Richard" at Mar 10, 11 04:08:22 pm Message-ID: In article , Rich Alderson writes: > And that's what Richard (to whom you were responding--I really wish you'd > include identifiers in your quoted material) was talking about. He was > here at the museum last Friday, and saw our little set piece for visitors > about storage media, which includes an RP06P disk pack that underwent a > massive head crash. Yes, and while hard drive heads shouldn't be touching the medium, bad things happen when they do. And that was Al's point -- heads touching the medium do bad things in the context of archival processes. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 11 15:22:30 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 13:22:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs (6809) In-Reply-To: <364168.1834.qm@web120217.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <364168.1834.qm@web120217.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110311131804.F91401@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 10 Mar 2011, Julian Skidmore wrote: > Actually this isn't *quite* true. An n x n bit unsigned multiplier > producing a 2n bit result also produces the correct signed results for > the bottom n bits. Thus the 6809's MUL instruction produces the correct > answer to A = -20 * B = -3 as it will store -60 in the B register. -20*-3=-60 ? (((-20) * (-3)) .EQ. (-60)) ? if (-20 * -3 == -60) printf("always knew there was something fundamentally wrong with the universe"); From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Mar 11 15:49:11 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 13:49:11 -0800 Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: References: from "Richard" at Mar 10, 11 04:08:22 pm Message-ID: <4D7A98D7.1010007@bitsavers.org> On 3/11/11 12:48 PM, Richard wrote: > And that was Al's point -- heads touching the medium do bad things in > the context of archival processes. I guess I was being too clever with that post. What I trying to express was my dislike of magnetic tape and floppies. Both require the media to be in contact with the head to work. Magnetic and optical rigid disks do not. My current preferred archival medium are high capacity SATA disks, and a LOT of redundancy. I am in the process of migrating from PATA RAID 5 to SATA JBOD with software to track failed drives. Part of the archival monitoring process is to run verification passes on the offline drives. This is not practical with tapes, where head and media wear directly effect the survival of the storage medium and the transport. I'll probably have to come up with a different scheme once the archive gets to be over a couple of hundred terabytes. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 15:57:39 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 16:57:39 -0500 Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 3:23 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > In any case, the original statement was in the context of magnetic tape > as a preservation medium. ?(I think that was Al Kossow.) ?Mag tape also > requires physical contact between head and medium. Yes and Yes. > ...saw our little set piece for visitors > about storage media, which includes an RP06P disk pack that underwent a > massive head crash. I have a crashed platter from an RK05F. It would make a "nice" clock face. As an obj d'art, it's a success. -ethan From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Mar 11 14:42:28 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 12:42:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: <4D7A98D7.1010007@bitsavers.org> References: from "Richard" at Mar 10, 11 04:08:22 pm <4D7A98D7.1010007@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Mar 2011, Al Kossow wrote: > On 3/11/11 12:48 PM, Richard wrote: > >> And that was Al's point -- heads touching the medium do bad things in >> the context of archival processes. > > I guess I was being too clever with that post. What I trying to express > was my dislike of magnetic tape and floppies. Both require the media > to be in contact with the head to work. Magnetic and optical rigid disks > do not. > > My current preferred archival medium are high capacity SATA disks, and a > LOT of redundancy. I am in the process of migrating from PATA RAID 5 to > SATA JBOD with software to track failed drives. Part of the archival Why JBOD over RAID5? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Mar 11 16:02:36 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 15:02:36 -0700 Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Ethan Dicks writes: > I have a crashed platter from an RK05F. It would make a "nice" clock > face. As an obj d'art, it's a success. I have a platter or two; I never thought of making it into a clock, that's a good idea! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Mar 11 16:05:01 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 15:05:01 -0700 Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: References: from "Richard" at Mar 10, 11 04:08:22 pm <4D7A98D7.1010007@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I guess I never thought about this before, but it strikes me that what's unique about digital archives is that they are "living" unlike archives of traditional documents. You want to keep the digital archive replicating to newer storage medium and actively test it for integrity and redundancy because the bits themselves are what matter and they are abstract and the medium on which they are stored is transitory. Interesting! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From drb at msu.edu Fri Mar 11 16:24:43 2011 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:24:43 -0500 Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: (Your message of Fri, 11 Mar 2011 13:49:11 PST.) <4D7A98D7.1010007@bitsavers.org> References: <4D7A98D7.1010007@bitsavers.org> from "Richard" at Mar 10, 11 04:08:22 pm Message-ID: <20110311222443.3D8FEA5825F@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I guess I was being too clever with that post. What I trying to express > was my dislike of magnetic tape and floppies. Both require the media to > be in contact with the head to work. Magnetic and optical rigid disks do > not. I'm not arguing for hundreds of TB of tape, or against using sata drives, here, but: If the wear of validating your media is killing your media, you've got a media refresh problem. You're supposed to be migrating the stuff forward onto newer media every ~five or so years anyway, so that you don't get bit rot, continue to have access to working drives, etc. De From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Mar 11 16:26:36 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 14:26:36 -0800 Subject: PDP-11 Operating Systems In-Reply-To: <4D7A7703.6020108@neurotica.com> References: , <4D7A7703.6020108@neurotica.com> Message-ID: The Massachusetts General Hospital Utility Multi-Programming System (MUMPS) originated in the medical community, which might explain its popularity there.... -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire [mcguire at neurotica.com] Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 11:24 AM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP-11 Operating Systems On 3/11/11 2:04 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I remember some light buzz at various 1980s DECUS symposia about > DSM-11, but IIRC, it had a niche in medical and dental offices, so > with one exception, I never saw it in the real world. The only MUMPS installations I've ever heard of were medical. I seem to recall DEC actually marketing it pretty hard in that area. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Mar 11 16:38:38 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 14:38:38 -0800 Subject: PDP-11 Operating Systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2011 Mar 11, at 3:01 AM, Wolfgang Eichberger wrote: > > There are some well known archives out there in the internet, but some > OSes mentioned in the PDP-11 faq and other sources are kinda hiding > from me. > > Let's start here: As I was reading the Ersatz-11 documentation file I > stumbled upon "Fox 2/30 OS". > > Does anyone now something about this OS? Did any copies of this system > or documentation and software survive? The only reference I have > found so far since I read the Ersatz-11 docs is here: > http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Foxboro/ > Foxboro.Fox... > (can't look at this file at the moment as I am on a slooooow internet > connection). All I found out is there's a strong focus on process > control in this system as well at it should be some kind of OEM. I have a very passing acquaintance with a Foxboro system. When I mentioned this on the list a couple of years ago Al supplied some Foxboro docs via bitsavers. They seemed to suggest that the Fox-1 used or was a minicomputer of Foxboro's own design and manufacture ca. 1969, for their large-plant/heavy-industry computer-based process control system. It would be interesting then if the Fox-2 was PDP-11-based. That is, did Foxboro give up on making their own hardware, take their process-control software/OS and port it to PDP-11 hardware and then sell rebadged PDP-11s? I extracted a couple of photos from the Fox-2 doc at the archive.computerhistory.org: http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/foxboro/ So for PDP-11 experts, could the machine in the photos be a rebadged/OEM PDP-11 ca. 1972 ? There are some CPU specs in the Fox-2 doc and some hints that sound like a pdp-11 (8 registers, 16-bit), and "The address space may be filled by core memory and peripheral-device registers. The top 4,096 words generally are reserved for such registers." From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Mar 11 17:00:04 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 15:00:04 -0800 Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: <20110311222443.3D8FEA5825F@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <4D7A98D7.1010007@bitsavers.org> from "Richard" at Mar 10, 11 04:08:22 pm <20110311222443.3D8FEA5825F@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: From: Dennis Boone Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 2:25 PM >> I guess I was being too clever with that post. What I trying to express >> was my dislike of magnetic tape and floppies. Both require the media to >> be in contact with the head to work. Magnetic and optical rigid disks do >> not. > I'm not arguing for hundreds of TB of tape, or against using sata > drives, here, but: > If the wear of validating your media is killing your media, you've got a > media refresh problem. You're supposed to be migrating the stuff > forward onto newer media every ~five or so years anyway, so that you > don't get bit rot, continue to have access to working drives, etc. That is very good practice for ongoing maintenance of archives. However, in a museum context, you may be dealing with media that are several decades old before you ever laid hands on them. In that case, care must be taken not to damage the medium with validation testing prior to capturing the contents. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 11 17:05:52 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 18:05:52 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 Operating Systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D7AAAD0.40006@neurotica.com> On 3/11/11 5:38 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I have a very passing acquaintance with a Foxboro system. When I > mentioned this on the list a couple of years ago Al supplied some > Foxboro docs via bitsavers. They seemed to suggest that the Fox-1 used > or was a minicomputer of Foxboro's own design and manufacture ca. 1969, > for their large-plant/heavy-industry computer-based process control system. > > It would be interesting then if the Fox-2 was PDP-11-based. That is, did > Foxboro give up on making their own hardware, take their process-control > software/OS and port it to PDP-11 hardware and then sell rebadged PDP-11s? > > I extracted a couple of photos from the Fox-2 doc at the > archive.computerhistory.org: > http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/foxboro/ > > So for PDP-11 experts, could the machine in the photos be a rebadged/OEM > PDP-11 ca. 1972 ? That looks exactly like a PDP-11/20 front panel. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 17:09:25 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 18:09:25 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 Operating Systems In-Reply-To: <4D7AAAD0.40006@neurotica.com> References: <4D7AAAD0.40006@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 6:05 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> I extracted a couple of photos from the Fox-2 doc at the >> archive.computerhistory.org: >> http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/foxboro/ >> >> So for PDP-11 experts, could the machine in the photos be a rebadged/OEM >> PDP-11 ca. 1972 ? > > ?That looks exactly like a PDP-11/20 front panel. The switch and light patterns certainly do, but the silk screen around them looks unique. http://www.retrotechnology.com/pdp11/front_panel.jpg -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 11 17:19:45 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 18:19:45 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 Operating Systems In-Reply-To: References: <4D7AAAD0.40006@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D7AAE11.5070601@neurotica.com> On 3/11/11 6:09 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> I extracted a couple of photos from the Fox-2 doc at the >>> archive.computerhistory.org: >>> http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/foxboro/ >>> >>> So for PDP-11 experts, could the machine in the photos be a rebadged/OEM >>> PDP-11 ca. 1972 ? >> >> That looks exactly like a PDP-11/20 front panel. > > The switch and light patterns certainly do, but the silk screen around > them looks unique. > > http://www.retrotechnology.com/pdp11/front_panel.jpg Yes, a proprietary silk-screened bezel over a standard 11/20 front panel, as has been done with lots of PDP-8 and PDP-11 systems. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Mar 11 17:31:17 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 15:31:17 -0800 Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: References: from "Richard" at Mar 10, 11 04:08:22 pm <4D7A98D7.1010007@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4D7AB0C5.8030306@bitsavers.org> On 3/11/11 2:05 PM, Richard wrote: > I guess I never thought about this before, but it strikes me that > what's unique about digital archives is that they are "living" unlike > archives of traditional documents. You want to keep the digital > archive replicating to newer storage medium and actively test it for > integrity and redundancy because the bits themselves are what matter > and they are abstract and the medium on which they are stored is > transitory. > > Interesting! That is one of the problems that I have working with archivists trained in the preservation of paper. We are blessed with working with our artifacts that can be copied without loss, and can be easily indexed, but we have no media of sufficient capacity or readers to recover them for more than a few decades, and there is even less money available for digital archives than traditional paper ones. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Mar 11 17:46:11 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 15:46:11 -0800 Subject: PDP-11 Operating Systems In-Reply-To: <4D7AAE11.5070601@neurotica.com> References: <4D7AAAD0.40006@neurotica.com> <4D7AAE11.5070601@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 2011 Mar 11, at 3:19 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 3/11/11 6:09 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>> I extracted a couple of photos from the Fox-2 doc at the >>>> archive.computerhistory.org: >>>> http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/foxboro/ >>>> >>>> So for PDP-11 experts, could the machine in the photos be a >>>> rebadged/OEM >>>> PDP-11 ca. 1972 ? >>> >>> That looks exactly like a PDP-11/20 front panel. >> >> The switch and light patterns certainly do, but the silk screen around >> them looks unique. >> >> http://www.retrotechnology.com/pdp11/front_panel.jpg > > Yes, a proprietary silk-screened bezel over a standard 11/20 front > panel, as has been done with lots of PDP-8 and PDP-11 systems. I figured somebody here would recognise it more quickly than if I went looking for -11 front panel photos. While many -11s were used in embedded systems, I don't think I had seen one where they were actually trying to hide the fact by silk-screening new front panels. Too bad in a way, about the Fox-1, just because it looked like a pretty cool mini (X-shaped cabinet design). I still find that era interesting, when everybody and their dog just had to design and manufacture their own minicomputer, and then discovered that supporting hardware, IO interfaces and devices, plus a full range of software was a bit much. From wmaddox at pacbell.net Fri Mar 11 18:03:20 2011 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 16:03:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: <4D7AB0C5.8030306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <216245.67886.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The main distinguishing feature of the hypothetical archiving system I was looking for is the use of internal redundancy to recover from the effects of occasional storage or transmission errors not detected/corrected by the underlying disk drive/filesystem/network etc. In this way, each physical copy of the archive could be independently replicated and transmitted reliably without having to fall back to a completely-redundant and perhaps geographically remote copy in order to deal with these increasingly routine events. I haven't had chance to look at it carefully, but this looks like it is addressing the issue. They are applying RAID-like methods to allow recoverability from isolated errors with an efficient degree of redundancy. http://www.quickpar.org.uk/ http://parchive.sourceforge.net/ --Bill From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 11 18:22:59 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 16:22:59 -0800 Subject: PDP-11 Operating Systems In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4D7A4C63.26791.1AD2EE9@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Mar 2011 at 14:38, Brent Hilpert wrote: > It would be interesting then if the Fox-2 was PDP-11-based. That is, > did Foxboro give up on making their own hardware, take their > process-control software/OS and port it to PDP-11 hardware and then > sell rebadged PDP-11s? It's quite curious: http://www.isa.org/Template.cfm?Section=Books3&template=Ecommerce/File Display.cfm&ProductID=9373&file=About_the_Author_Caro.pdf seems to say that the Fox-2 preceded the Fox-1: "Foxboro Company was my next stop. I went to work immedi- ately on its PDP-8-based control systems. I led the team that converted its control systems to the PDP-11 as the FOX/2 and 2A. Later, I led the team that brought the FOX/1 to market in my first project as a department manager... The Fox-1 was a 24-bit system. --Chuck (My own experience with Foxboro was mostly with chart recorders and regulators. Too early for computers.) From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 11 18:31:11 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 19:31:11 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 Operating Systems In-Reply-To: References: <4D7AAAD0.40006@neurotica.com> <4D7AAE11.5070601@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D7ABECF.40908@neurotica.com> On 3/11/11 6:46 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>>>> I extracted a couple of photos from the Fox-2 doc at the >>>>> archive.computerhistory.org: >>>>> http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/foxboro/ >>>>> >>>>> So for PDP-11 experts, could the machine in the photos be a >>>>> rebadged/OEM >>>>> PDP-11 ca. 1972 ? >>>> >>>> That looks exactly like a PDP-11/20 front panel. >>> >>> The switch and light patterns certainly do, but the silk screen around >>> them looks unique. >>> >>> http://www.retrotechnology.com/pdp11/front_panel.jpg >> >> Yes, a proprietary silk-screened bezel over a standard 11/20 front >> panel, as has been done with lots of PDP-8 and PDP-11 systems. > > I figured somebody here would recognise it more quickly than if I went > looking for -11 front panel photos. While many -11s were used in > embedded systems, I don't think I had seen one where they were actually > trying to hide the fact by silk-screening new front panels. I have a PDP-8/e with another company's custom-silkscreened front bezel; it doesn't say DEC or DIGITAL anywhere on it. Pat Finnegan has (I think) a PDP-11/35 with a similarly-custom front bezel. I don't recall if that says DEC or DIGITAL on it but I think it doesn't. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Mar 11 18:33:54 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 16:33:54 -0800 Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: <216245.67886.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <216245.67886.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D7ABF72.7070809@bitsavers.org> On 3/11/11 4:03 PM, William Maddox wrote: > I haven't had chance to look at it carefully, but this looks like it is addressing the issue. I had looked at this a while back. The problem is what it is targeted at solving: "The original idea behind this project was to provide a tool to apply the data-recovery capability concepts of RAID-like systems to the posting and recovery of multi-part archives on Usenet." This doesn't map at all to use in a digital repository, where you (well, "I") don't want to explode a container and scatter it across physical disks. I guess the big philosophical issue I have with these schemes is do you wrap something around a data container (try to make it self-describing), or leave it as two separate containers ("read-only" and "up datable"). From als at thangorodrim.de Fri Mar 11 18:36:26 2011 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 01:36:26 +0100 Subject: Who will be the last HD maker down the road? In-Reply-To: <77B95B40-4467-469B-B8EB-203C21DEAE3D@mainecoon.com> References: <201103091946.p29Jkhmo021388@imr-da06.mx.aol.com> <4D77E720.3050100@brouhaha.com> <77B95B40-4467-469B-B8EB-203C21DEAE3D@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <20110312003625.GC21120@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Wed, Mar 09, 2011 at 01:39:02PM -0800, Christian Kennedy wrote: > > On Mar 9, 2011, at 12:46 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > > That's why the "secure erase" commands were added to the ATA command set, and the drive is supposed to erase even the spared blocks. > > Sandforce takes this one step further in that their SSD drives have AES > encryption turned on by default. If you issue a ATA secure delete to > the drive the key is wiped and regenerated, rendering all of the data > in flash, both primary and spare, into garbage. Sounds all nice and peachy ... but I'd rather trust a disk encryption system that can is open and can be properly verified, like the Linux dmcrypt layer. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Mar 11 18:50:29 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 16:50:29 -0800 Subject: PDP-11 Operating Systems In-Reply-To: <4D7A4C63.26791.1AD2EE9@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4D7A4C63.26791.1AD2EE9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <549e5048628dd19f6617c83d332ab4a3@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Mar 11, at 4:22 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11 Mar 2011 at 14:38, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> It would be interesting then if the Fox-2 was PDP-11-based. That is, >> did Foxboro give up on making their own hardware, take their >> process-control software/OS and port it to PDP-11 hardware and then >> sell rebadged PDP-11s? > > It's quite curious: > > http://www.isa.org/Template.cfm?Section=Books3&template=Ecommerce/File > Display.cfm&ProductID=9373&file=About_the_Author_Caro.pdf > > seems to say that the Fox-2 preceded the Fox-1: > > "Foxboro Company was my next stop. I went to work immedi- > ately on its PDP-8-based control systems. I led the team that > converted its control systems to the PDP-11 as the FOX/2 and > 2A. Later, I led the team that brought the FOX/1 to market in > my first project as a department manager... > > The Fox-1 was a 24-bit system. Well that is interesting, the naming and dating of material seemed to suggest the 2 followed the 1, but perhaps they were separate systems targetting different markets or plant size/scale. I wonder what happened to the Fox-1 architecture and system as time went on. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Mar 11 19:34:48 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:34:48 -0800 Subject: PDP-11 Operating Systems In-Reply-To: <549e5048628dd19f6617c83d332ab4a3@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <4D7A4C63.26791.1AD2EE9@cclist.sydex.com> <549e5048628dd19f6617c83d332ab4a3@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4D7ACDB8.9090401@bitsavers.org> On 3/11/11 4:50 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I wonder what happened to the Fox-1 architecture and system as time went on. > Dead end. It was picked up from the remnants of a Sylvania computer project. http://www.freelists.org/post/foxboro/foxboro-Legacy-Fox-300-Systems,2 The original Fox 1 was a Sylvania machine designed to run MinuteMan missle silos. They did not get the contract so we bought all of the prototypes (30 or so). This machines are shaped like an X when viewed from the top. The "circuit boards" are cardboard with discrete components on them. You see one of these beasts and you don't forget it. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Mar 11 19:40:47 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:40:47 -0800 Subject: PDP-11 Operating Systems In-Reply-To: <4D7ACDB8.9090401@bitsavers.org> References: , <4D7A4C63.26791.1AD2EE9@cclist.sydex.com> <549e5048628dd19f6617c83d332ab4a3@cs.ubc.ca> <4D7ACDB8.9090401@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4D7ACF1F.2070504@bitsavers.org> On 3/11/11 5:34 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > Dead end. It was picked up from the remnants of a Sylvania computer project. > > http://www.freelists.org/post/foxboro/foxboro-Legacy-Fox-300-Systems,2 > from reading the post, I was mistaken. It seems to have lived on for quite a long time From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Mar 11 19:45:16 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:45:16 -0800 Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: <4D7ABF72.7070809@bitsavers.org> References: <216245.67886.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4D7ABF72.7070809@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: From: Al Kossow Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 4:34 PM > On 3/11/11 4:03 PM, William Maddox wrote: >> I haven't had chance to look at it carefully, but this looks like it >> is addressing the issue. > I had looked at this a while back. The problem is what it is targeted > at solving: > "The original idea behind this project was to provide a tool to apply > the data-recovery capability concepts of RAID-like systems to the > posting and recovery of multi-part archives on Usenet." > This doesn't map at all to use in a digital repository, where you > (well, "I") don't want to explode a container and scatter it across > physical disks. > I guess the big philosophical issue I have with these schemes is do > you wrap something around a data container (try to make it self- > describing), or leave it as two separate containers ("read-only" and > "up datable"). Where do you come down on that question? My personal preference would be for something of a meta-filesystem, similar to the Mac OS X packaging for applications (a philosophical outgrowth of the resource/data forks idea simplified by using a file system to implement it). One fork is the actual archived bits in whatever form best preserves it--tar balls remain tar balls, tapes become streams of octets, etc.--while another is an analogue of the TCFS vel sim. as a metadata description of the content of the bits in the archive. The tools to get at each piece are simple, but the packaging tools allow the archive to be treated as a unit. "But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong." --Dennis Miller Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Mar 11 20:00:14 2011 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason, Sr.) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 21:00:14 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 Operating Systems In-Reply-To: <4D7ABECF.40908@neurotica.com> References: <4D7ABECF.40908@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201103112100.15058.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 11 March 2011 07:31:11 pm Dave McGuire wrote: > On 3/11/11 6:46 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >>>>> I extracted a couple of photos from the Fox-2 doc at the > >>>>> archive.computerhistory.org: > >>>>> http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/foxboro/ > >>>>> > >>>>> So for PDP-11 experts, could the machine in the photos be a > >>>>> rebadged/OEM > >>>>> PDP-11 ca. 1972 ? > >>>> > >>>> That looks exactly like a PDP-11/20 front panel. > >>> > >>> The switch and light patterns certainly do, but the silk screen around > >>> them looks unique. > >>> > >>> http://www.retrotechnology.com/pdp11/front_panel.jpg > >> > >> Yes, a proprietary silk-screened bezel over a standard 11/20 front > >> panel, as has been done with lots of PDP-8 and PDP-11 systems. > > > > I figured somebody here would recognise it more quickly than if I went > > looking for -11 front panel photos. While many -11s were used in > > embedded systems, I don't think I had seen one where they were actually > > trying to hide the fact by silk-screening new front panels. > > I have a PDP-8/e with another company's custom-silkscreened front > bezel; it doesn't say DEC or DIGITAL anywhere on it. Pat Finnegan has > (I think) a PDP-11/35 with a similarly-custom front bezel. I don't > recall if that says DEC or DIGITAL on it but I think it doesn't. > > -Dave OTOH, I have a 486 ISA peecee that _does_ say "digital" on the front of it. I didn't know they were into this stuff, too... Darn thing only seems to want parity RAM, too. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 11 20:22:19 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 21:22:19 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 Operating Systems In-Reply-To: <201103112100.15058.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <4D7ABECF.40908@neurotica.com> <201103112100.15058.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4D7AD8DB.8000007@neurotica.com> On 3/11/11 9:00 PM, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote: > OTOH, I have a 486 ISA peecee that _does_ say "digital" on the front > of it. I didn't know they were into this stuff, too... Yep, I've worked with those. Bog-standard cheap PCs. But...do you remember the "applicationDEC 433MP"? They put "application" before "DEC" in the name to "emphasize the application-oriented nature of the system" blah blah blah. The decision of a just-out-of-college marketing suit, no doubt. It was an odd multiprocessor 80486-based machine that was nowhere near PC-compatible, if memory serves. Needless to say I think they sold about four of them. I'd bet that marketing guy is a night manager at a Wal*Mart now. > Darn thing only seems to want parity RAM, too. That figures. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Mar 11 21:28:26 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 19:28:26 -0800 Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: References: <216245.67886.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4D7ABF72.7070809@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4D7AE85A.70905@bitsavers.org> On 3/11/11 5:45 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> I guess the big philosophical issue I have with these schemes is do >> you wrap something around a data container (try to make it self- >> describing), or leave it as two separate containers ("read-only" and >> "up datable"). > > Where do you come down on that question? > Leaving the original container as-is, and having the metadata completely separate. This lets you to know that the container should never change so it can be written to a write-once medium, or copied, knowing that the data will never intentionally change. The data that describes the container, though, is known to change over time. > My personal preference would be for something of a meta-filesystem, > similar to the Mac OS X packaging for applications (a philosophical > outgrowth of the resource/data forks idea simplified by using a file > system to implement it). Browsability or not.. A long-running argument at CHM for storing assets. Bitsavers, and my working internal archive, are arranged hierarchically. The big difference between the two is while bitsavers is almost exclusively by source or vendor, the internal one is really a collection of archives with differing structures depending on content. Metadata is minimal (as Richard has noted in bitsavers). The 'real' CHM archive started out as a hierarchy, but switched to directories named after the month when the asset was added, since it was becoming increasingly awkward and time consuming coming up with categories, and there was no way to automate the repository ingest process (we had hundreds of pictures taken of objects created while cataloging the collection with no manufacturer directories for them to go into for example). There was a decision that the collections database (Mimsy) was going to be the primary way to locate assets in the archive. This is the logical way to go. Hierarchical databases (which is really what you're creating with directory trees) are known to be less flexible than relational ones. The directory heirarchy is a stopgap to provide some structure for the containers until more detailed metadata can be created. If a catalog record is created at the time the container is added to the archive, and is a efficient way to browse in the database, structuring the containers hierarchically isn't necessary. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 11 22:04:13 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 20:04:13 -0800 Subject: PDP-11 Operating Systems - PULSE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:01 PM +0100 3/11/11, Wolfgang Eichberger wrote: >at the moment). From time to time I tend to put online what I have >found (please see 5ewl.blogspot.com if you want). Interesting site. You've some stuff mentioned there I've never heard of. There are two key things I'm interested in finding. One as many here probably know is I have a sick desire to check out the RT-11 version of DECnet. The other lesser known thing is an OS that is missing from your list. A rather interesting sounding OS known as PULSE from the Department of Computer Science at the University of York in England. It was developed between 1979 and 1984, and is described in the following book that was published in '85. "PULSE: An Ada-Based Distributed Operating System" Sadly based on the assistance of a list member in talking two a couple of the original developers back in 2003, I think it's safe to assume a copy will never turn up. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Mar 11 22:39:36 2011 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason, Sr.) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 23:39:36 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 Operating Systems In-Reply-To: <4D7AD8DB.8000007@neurotica.com> References: <201103112100.15058.rtellason@verizon.net> <4D7AD8DB.8000007@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201103112339.37169.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 11 March 2011 09:22:19 pm Dave McGuire wrote: > On 3/11/11 9:00 PM, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote: > > OTOH, I have a 486 ISA peecee that _does_ say "digital" on the front > > of it. I didn't know they were into this stuff, too... > > Yep, I've worked with those. Bog-standard cheap PCs. Not this one. Compared to the other 486 boxes in the pile up in the attic this one's built like a tank. :-) > But...do you remember the "applicationDEC 433MP"? Nope. > They put "application" before "DEC" in the name to "emphasize the > application-oriented nature of the system" blah blah blah. The decision > of a just-out-of-college marketing suit, no doubt. > > It was an odd multiprocessor 80486-based machine that was nowhere near > PC-compatible, if memory serves. Needless to say I think they sold > about four of them. I'd bet that marketing guy is a night manager at a > Wal*Mart now. Heh. > > Darn thing only seems to want parity RAM, too. > > That figures. I think I have something like 20M in it now, I'll get it up to 64M eventually. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Mar 11 22:59:08 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 20:59:08 -0800 Subject: Foxboro systems/ was Re: PDP-11 Operating Systems In-Reply-To: <4D7ACF1F.2070504@bitsavers.org> References: , <4D7A4C63.26791.1AD2EE9@cclist.sydex.com> <549e5048628dd19f6617c83d332ab4a3@cs.ubc.ca> <4D7ACDB8.9090401@bitsavers.org> <4D7ACF1F.2070504@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 2011 Mar 11, at 5:40 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 3/11/11 5:34 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> Dead end. It was picked up from the remnants of a Sylvania computer >> project. >> >> http://www.freelists.org/post/foxboro/foxboro-Legacy-Fox-300-Systems,2 > > from reading the post, I was mistaken. It seems to have lived on for > quite a long > time Interesting origins of the processor. I wonder what he means by 'cardboard' circuit boards though, and discrete components. A photo in the Fox-1 brochure shows PCBs with edge connectors and gold-cap ceramic package SSI ICs. From evan at snarc.net Sat Mar 12 01:32:47 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 02:32:47 -0500 Subject: TI-99/4a display question Message-ID: <4D7B219F.9050604@snarc.net> Was the TI-99/4a marketed with a TI-branded monitor? Or did most people use a television? From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 02:38:43 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 00:38:43 -0800 Subject: TI-99/4a display question In-Reply-To: <4D7B219F.9050604@snarc.net> References: <4D7B219F.9050604@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 11:32 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Was the TI-99/4a marketed with a TI-branded monitor? ?Or did most people use > a television? > How about these? http://www.mainbyte.com/ti99/hardware/13_color_monitor.html http://www.mainbyte.com/ti99/hardware/color_monitor.html From als at thangorodrim.de Sat Mar 12 09:03:41 2011 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 16:03:41 +0100 Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: <4D77F606.2030309@bitsavers.org> References: <4D77F606.2030309@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20110312150341.GA15908@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Wed, Mar 09, 2011 at 01:49:58PM -0800, Al Kossow wrote: > On 3/9/11 1:32 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > > >OTOH I keep all of my images compressed, precisely because I want to know if any copy has been corrupted. > > > > Another use for uncompressed archives (mainly tape backup images) is you can create a file that contains > a directory of the contents and a offset to the file header, and have very fast access within the tape image. > You can't do that if the image has been compressed. You can still get that by using a format that does file level compression, like afio. This also limits data loss in the case of corrupted bits to just the file directly afflicted, which is why I use that format for my backups. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From tshoppa at wmata.com Sat Mar 12 09:22:49 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 10:22:49 -0500 Subject: Foxboro systems/ was Re: PDP-11 Operating Systems Message-ID: > I wonder what he means by 'cardboard' circuit boards though I think it was a dig at Sylvania's (indeed the industry-wide) standard PCB technology of the time. Today we are very used to etched PC boards with a fiberglass epoxy substrate and copper traces that were etched. But the original consumer-type PCB technology was more often formica or phenolic-type circuit boards with traces that were stamped from sheet foil and then glued to the phenolic. (There was also a mil-spec type of PCB that was a ceramic base with silvered traces essentially painted on - you see stuff like this in Tek scopes of the 50's and 60's.) Not surprising to see Sylvania mentioned in the same breath because of course Sylvania used the phenolic PCB technology across many of their consumer TV's and radios. The cheap 50's and 60's phenolic PC boards are indeed like plasticized chipboard/cardboard. I'm 99% sure that phenolic is still being widely used in consumer electronics (although it is a higher grade than that from Sylvania's 60 PCB's and you might not know it's really plasticized chipboard until you break it.). DEC modules from the 60's were most often a high grade (for the time) phenolic PCB. Glass Epoxy really took off in the 70's. I'm thinking the Foxboro 1 pictures are from the early 70's and represent a later implementation of the Sylvania architecture. Fingers on phenolic PCB's are far less durable than fingers on glass epoxy PCB's. I never used a Fox 1, my earliest exposure was the Fox 2/30. Tim. From tshoppa at wmata.com Sat Mar 12 12:25:24 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 13:25:24 -0500 Subject: Digital archiving tools Message-ID: > Friends don't let friends store their archives on a media that requires physical contact > with a read/write head. As a data point: All of bitsavers fits on 27 DVD-R's. I'm told that Blu-Ray recordables store 25GB (single layer) or 50 GB (dual layer) but I'm not at the leading edge of media adoption. Only in the past year have I grudgingly admitted that DVD-R might be halfway decent for everyday use, but I still don't trust anything but Gold CD-R for longer term use. The mainframe people use cartridge-loaded WORM media which is 60 GB per cart. I think it's magneto-optical but who knows, maybe it's really closer to Blu-Ray type technology. For a while (back in the 600 Mbyte/cart era) I was a big fan of the 5.25" magneto optical carts but CD-R and DVD-R is so easy that I have a hard time going back. From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 12:45:23 2011 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 13:45:23 -0500 Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 13:25, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> Friends don't let friends store their archives on a media that requires physical contact >> with a read/write head. > > As a data point: All of bitsavers fits on 27 DVD-R's. > [...] but I still don't trust > anything but Gold CD-R for longer term use. By curious coincidence, one of my labmates just asked me for some original data from my Master's thesis, and luckily I have that data backed up on CD-R - from 1999 (Maxell gold-coloured CD-R74, if that makes a difference). Tar.gz files, and still reads fine 12 years later on a modern machine (Mac mini) without special hardware or software. I didn't plan on those being long-term storage, just as a snapshot in case my HD crashes taking all my work with it. Of course, I still have some C64 floppies from the 86-90 timeframe that I can read - but that requires either well-kept original hardware or specialized HW and SW. However, joining this with the discussion of recovering from flash, I believe that while not ideal as long-term storage medium, data on CD-R can probably be recovered by digital archeologists long after a consumer grade cd-rom drive deems it unreadable, provided no grievous harm has been done to it. It might take some effort and specialized knowledge and tools, but it's probably easier than recovering from magnetic media. Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From jws at jwsss.com Sat Mar 12 13:00:34 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 11:00:34 -0800 Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D7BC2D2.4000500@jwsss.com> Speaking of DVD and archives too large to fit on one media, does anyone have a good solution for pointing at a large file system (such as bitsavers top level directory) and specifying a size of the target media and let it sort out the archiving problem? I would like not to use an archiver, but rather have the individual files copied to the target such that they are available individually as files, as well as an index somewhere specifying which item of the backup the file landed on. I know this it not directly an archiving problem, but would be a nice utility to have. It would work with either the problem of targeting dvd-r or copying a large archive to a set of SATA drives. Jim On 3/12/2011 10:25 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > I'm told that Blu-Ray recordables store 25GB (single layer) or 50 GB (dual layer) but I'm > not at the leading edge of media adoption. Only in the past year have I grudgingly > admitted that DVD-R might be halfway decent for everyday use, but I still don't trust > anything but Gold CD-R for longer term use. > > The mainframe people use cartridge-loaded WORM media which is 60 GB per cart. I think > it's magneto-optical but who knows, maybe it's really closer to Blu-Ray type technology. For > a while (back in the 600 Mbyte/cart era) I was a big fan of the 5.25" magneto optical > carts but CD-R and DVD-R is so easy that I have a hard time going back. From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Mar 12 13:53:54 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 14:53:54 -0500 Subject: Digital archiving tools References: Message-ID: <4BACC3FC1192487F8F3FCD0EA3E342B9@dell8300> I have used DDS DAT for years, currently trying out DLT and AIT2 drives (nice to have a 50GB native tape). While I have 100's of burnt CDs that are 15 years old by now, I don't think DVDr will be as good. And I still mess around with MO drives for my old gear, picked up a few more drives in the last year incase mine fail. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shoppa, Tim" To: Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 1:25 PM Subject: Re: Digital archiving tools > Friends don't let friends store their archives on a media that requires > physical contact > with a read/write head. As a data point: All of bitsavers fits on 27 DVD-R's. I'm told that Blu-Ray recordables store 25GB (single layer) or 50 GB (dual layer) but I'm not at the leading edge of media adoption. Only in the past year have I grudgingly admitted that DVD-R might be halfway decent for everyday use, but I still don't trust anything but Gold CD-R for longer term use. The mainframe people use cartridge-loaded WORM media which is 60 GB per cart. I think it's magneto-optical but who knows, maybe it's really closer to Blu-Ray type technology. For a while (back in the 600 Mbyte/cart era) I was a big fan of the 5.25" magneto optical carts but CD-R and DVD-R is so easy that I have a hard time going back. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 12 14:11:19 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 12:11:19 -0800 Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: <4BACC3FC1192487F8F3FCD0EA3E342B9@dell8300> References: , <4BACC3FC1192487F8F3FCD0EA3E342B9@dell8300> Message-ID: <4D7B62E7.24291.BC8C5F@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Mar 2011 at 14:53, Teo Zenios wrote: > I have used DDS DAT for years, currently trying out DLT and AIT2 > drives (nice to have a 50GB native tape). While I have 100's of burnt > CDs that are 15 years old by now, I don't think DVDr will be as good. > And I still mess around with MO drives for my old gear, picked up a > few more drives in the last year incase mine fail. I'm not so sure about CD-Rs, myself. Over the years, I've taken pains to buy Mitsui (MAM-A) Gold media for my backups. About a month ago, I pulled a 5-year old CD out to answer a question that I had. The thing would not read--citing "unrecoverable" errors. Mind you, the CD-R had been recorded, slipped into a jewel case and left in a temperature- and humidity-controlled environment for that time. The failed read was perhaps third read for the CD in 5 years. Fortunately, I still had the data on an old hard disk. CD-R as archival medium? I don't think so. DVD-R? I'm even less optimistic. I've had better results with DLT and QIC (for QIC, close to 30 years). --Chuck P.S. Anyone remember the short-lived Kodak warranty on their floppy media that offered to recover lost data at no cost should it be due to a media failure? That didn't last long... From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Mar 12 14:25:09 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 15:25:09 -0500 Subject: Digital archiving tools References: , <4BACC3FC1192487F8F3FCD0EA3E342B9@dell8300> <4D7B62E7.24291.BC8C5F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <013B01BFC6CA474AB2F2C9AB83E18697@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 3:11 PM Subject: Re: Digital archiving tools > I've had better results with DLT and QIC (for QIC, close to 30 > years). > > --Chuck I recovered a bunch of old QIC 120MB tapes a few years back (100+ tapes) and every one read back fine, some dated to the late 1980's. The drive I used to read them was not the drive that wrote them (the tapes were not mine). From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Mar 12 15:04:18 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 13:04:18 -0800 Subject: Foxboro systems/ was Re: PDP-11 Operating Systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3c19c6f59ccb7477076a32737e6be54b@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Mar 12, at 7:22 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> I wonder what he means by 'cardboard' circuit boards though > > I think it was a dig at Sylvania's (indeed the industry-wide) standard > PCB technology of the time. Oh, I'm (too) well-acquainted with cheap phenolic PCBs from the 50-60s. But there was good- or reasonable-quality phenolic PCBs too. If Sylvania was using some low quality stuff perhaps that's one of the reasons they lost the missile silo contract, but you'd think they would have known better for a big mil/gov contract. HP used phenolic PCBs to a limited degree (bad) in some tube equipment, but their early-60s solid-state equipment used a pretty reliable phenolic PCB. TMO, they moved to fiberglass sometime in the mid-60's. IBM got by with that yellow substrate for their SMS cards for a decade, an early PCB substrate that was also used in consumer stuff. As much as phenolic PCBs were widely used into the 60's, there was lots of fiberglass used in that era too. Not an indication of prevalence, but I have test equipment from as early as 1961 with fiberglass PCBs. IME, while a good fiberglass board is preferable, a good phenolic board can be better than a bad fiberglass board, and there were lots of bad fiberglass boards. > Today we are very used to etched PC boards with a fiberglass epoxy > substrate and copper traces that were etched. > > But the original consumer-type PCB technology was more often formica > or phenolic-type circuit boards with traces that were stamped from > sheet foil and then glued to the phenolic. (There was also a mil-spec > type of PCB that was a ceramic base with silvered traces essentially > painted on - you see stuff like this in Tek scopes of the 50's and > 60's.) > > Not surprising to see Sylvania mentioned in the same breath because of > course Sylvania used the phenolic PCB technology across many of their > consumer TV's and radios. > > The cheap 50's and 60's phenolic PC boards are indeed like plasticized > chipboard/cardboard. I'm 99% sure that phenolic is still being widely > used in consumer electronics (although it is a higher grade than that > from Sylvania's 60 PCB's and you might not know it's really > plasticized chipboard until you break it.). > > DEC modules from the 60's were most often a high grade (for the time) > phenolic PCB. Glass Epoxy really took off in the 70's. I'm thinking > the Foxboro 1 pictures are from the early 70's and represent a later > implementation of the Sylvania architecture. Fingers on phenolic PCB's > are far less durable than fingers on glass epoxy PCB's. > > I never used a Fox 1, my earliest exposure was the Fox 2/30. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 12 14:20:33 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 20:20:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: <4D7A98D7.1010007@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Mar 11, 11 01:49:11 pm Message-ID: > > And that was Al's point -- heads touching the medium do bad things in > > the context of archival processes. > > I guess I was being too clever with that post. What I trying to express I realised from the start that your oriuginal comment didn't exculde hard drives (does anyone honestly believe i didn't know that a head in a hard disk flies over the disk, it doesn't toucvh it). Richard (I think) then raised the issue of a head crash, and I mistakenly assuemd he was commenting on a dislike of hard drives for archinving becasue they can crash.. My comment was intyerned to point out what everyoen knwos, that your oribialn comment doesn't exclude such drives. -tony From tshoppa at wmata.com Sat Mar 12 15:39:30 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 16:39:30 -0500 Subject: Digital archiving tools Message-ID: > Speaking of DVD and archives too large to fit on one media, does anyone > have a good solution for pointing at a large file system (such as > bitsavers top level directory) and specifying a size of the target media > and let it sort out the archiving problem? I would like not to use an > archiver, but rather have the individual files copied to the target such > that they are available individually as files, as well as an index > somewhere specifying which item of the backup the file landed on. For the past decade my solution has to been write a perl script :-). Previous splits to CD often worked hard on filling every nook and cranny of every CD but I don't try so hard anymore. (This was the original use of the "foundbymb" sort you see remnants of below.) To be super duper efficient required knowing things like rockridge/joliet extension names and the extra space they took up etc. This one splits up bitsavers into slightly-smaller-than-DVD-sized chunks (using soft links), and makes (to standard output) a index that can be copied to each DVD: #!/usr/bin/perl use strict; use File::Path qw(make_path); use File::Find; my $total; my $prefix = '/home/shoppa/www.bitsavers.org'; find(\&wanted, $prefix); my @foundbymb; my @foundbyalpha; my %files; sub wanted { my $name = $File::Find::name; my $size = -s $name; next if -d $name; $files{$name} = { "name" => $name, "size" => $size, "dir"=> $File::Find::dir } ; $total += $size; } my $cdn =1; my $maxbytes = 4400000000; my $thisbytes = 0; my %madedir; for (sort keys %files) { my $size = $files{$_}{"size"}; if ($thisbytes + $size > $maxbytes) { print "DVD $cdn finished with $thisbytes bytes\n"; $thisbytes = 0; $cdn++; } my $cdm = sprintf("%02d",$cdn); $thisbytes += $size; my $indir = $files{$_}{"dir"}; my $outdir = $indir; $outdir =~ s/$prefix/$cdm/; if (!exists $madedir{$outdir}) { make_path($outdir); # or die "didn't make $outdir\n"; $madedir{$outdir}++; } my $inf = $_; my $outf = $inf; $outf =~ s/$prefix/$cdm/; link($inf,$outf) or die "didn't ln $inf $outf"; print "$outf\n"; } print "DVD $cdn finished with $thisbytes bytes\n"; print "Total size is $total\n"; From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 16:08:04 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 17:08:04 -0500 Subject: Foxboro systems/ was Re: PDP-11 Operating Systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > But the original consumer-type PCB technology was more often formica or phenolic-type circuit boards with traces that were stamped from sheet foil and then glued to the phenolic. This method of making circuit boards was very obsolete by 1950 or so. Even the cheap stuff has been printed and etched for a long time, quite like today. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 16:12:29 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 17:12:29 -0500 Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > The mainframe people use cartridge-loaded WORM media which is 60 GB per cart. The mainframe people also keep at least a couple of generations of backup technology alive as insurance. The nine tracks are just about gone from the mainframe shops now, and 3480s are now what is finally falling off the back end of the curve. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 16:16:01 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 17:16:01 -0500 Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > For > a while (back in the 600 Mbyte/cart era) I was a big fan of the 5.25" magneto optical > carts but CD-R and DVD-R is so easy that I have a hard time going back. I thought those things were great as well, but the WORM/MO people never really managed to get their standards nailed down - some disks and some drives did not like each other *some* of the time. -. Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Mar 12 16:23:10 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 17:23:10 -0500 Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D7BF24E.7040400@neurotica.com> On 3/12/11 5:16 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> For >> a while (back in the 600 Mbyte/cart era) I was a big fan of the 5.25" magneto optical >> carts but CD-R and DVD-R is so easy that I have a hard time going back. > > I thought those things were great as well, but the WORM/MO people > never really managed to get their standards nailed down - some disks > and some drives did not like each other *some* of the time. Years ago I used quite a few of the 1.3GB 5.25" MO disks, a few hundred of them. They were extremely reliable. I think their capacity topped out at a little over 5GB, 5.2 maybe. It's a shame they didn't push that technology further. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sat Mar 12 16:55:19 2011 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 17:55:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: Osborne video cable pinout Message-ID: I have an Osborne external video monitor, with no cable: http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/Osborne/OsborneMonitor-1L.jpg I need the pinout for the cable which connects this to the Osborne 1 system. A schematic for the monitor would be helpful, as well. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From evan at snarc.net Sat Mar 12 17:22:51 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 18:22:51 -0500 Subject: VCF East exhibitor registration -- fixed! Message-ID: <4D7C004B.7040107@snarc.net> Go forth and register! The VCF exhibit registration system is finally fixed. (But inform me ASAP if you encounter bugs.) - Evan From als at thangorodrim.de Sat Mar 12 17:53:49 2011 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 00:53:49 +0100 Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: <4BACC3FC1192487F8F3FCD0EA3E342B9@dell8300> References: <4BACC3FC1192487F8F3FCD0EA3E342B9@dell8300> Message-ID: <20110312235348.GB15908@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 02:53:54PM -0500, Teo Zenios wrote: > I have used DDS DAT for years, currently trying out DLT and AIT2 *eek* DDS tapes are _not_ a reliable backup medium, quite the opposite, they can be a perfectly valid excuse why some annoying data has be "lost". In a previous job, we used DDS3 tapes for boot & install (Ignite-UX tapes). We always kept three copies of each tape and despite rarely using them (well, how often do you reinstall a Unix production or even staging server?) and the low machine count (IIRC < 10 machines) I aquired a stack of 10 or 15 dead (== read errors) tapes in 2 years in that job. As a contrast, the SDLT library had some 20 or so tapes in it, with regular use (it being _the_ backup storage system) and it rejected (due to read errors IIRC < 5 tapes in that same time. In fact, from what I've seen, DDS tapes should be considered suspect after 10-20 cycles (load/unload/read/write) and considered junk after 30-40 cycles. Plus there is the charming habit of some HP DDS drives to very slowly drift out of alignment. So you can read the current and last few generations of backup tapes on that drive but should it ever die ... > drives (nice to have a 50GB native tape). While I have 100's of > burnt CDs that are 15 years old by now, I don't think DVDr will be > as good. And I still mess around with MO drives for my old gear, > picked up a few more drives in the last year incase mine fail. My MO drive unfortunately died, so I'm on the (low priority) lookout for a replacement. But these days, my backups go either onto DLT-III(XT) (10/15 GB native) or LTO1 (100 GB native) backup tapes. Both are linear recording (as opposed to the helical recording of DDS) tape systems and both are specced to keep their data intact for 20+ years and 500+ cycles given proper storage. Another backup medium I use is DVD-RAM, which sounds reasonably promising as a backup storage medium, plus you can put a filesystem on it and run r/w operations, simplifying access. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Mar 12 20:22:57 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 18:22:57 -0800 Subject: FS: TRS-80 Model 16 & 6000 Message-ID: <4D7C2A81.6030908@mail.msu.edu> Hey all -- I'm attempting to clear out some space and fund a wildly-out-of-control car restoration project, so I'm looking at parting with some of my TRS-80 gear. This stuff is in Seattle. I have both a Model 16 and a Model 6000. Here's the stats (some of the details are from memory, if you want 100% confirmation, let me know and I can clarify). Model 16: - Technically a Model 6000 (has the 6000 CPU board installed) - 768K of RAM - 5.25" hard drive controller - 20MB hard disk (in 12MB enclosure) with Xenix 1.3 installed - Two half-height 8" drives - In great shape, everything is working great, monitor is crisp & clear. Model 6000: - I believe it has at least 512K of RAM - 5.25" hard drive controller - Two half-height 8" drives - Another 20MB hard disk, with Xenix 1.3 (never did find a complete set of 3.0 disks...) - In good shape, but missing the back panel covering the expansion slots - Keyboard is... very rough. Keys need to be refoamed and it's very beat up. In addition, I have a pile of manuals and software (somewhere around 100 8" floppies with all sorts of random stuff) and a couple extra external hard drive enclosures (without drives). I also have an external 8mb 8" hard drive (but it's a secondary drive, so you'll need another 8" drive with controller to run it). Anyone interested? Make me an offer. I'll consider shipping for really really good offers, but there's a *lot* of heavy stuff here so it's not going to be cheap -- obviously I'd much prefer local pickup. I'd be willing to drive a ways to meet someone halfway. Thanks, Josh From legalize at xmission.com Sat Mar 12 21:37:58 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 20:37:58 -0700 Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: <4D7AE85A.70905@bitsavers.org> References: <216245.67886.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4D7ABF72.7070809@bitsavers.org> <4D7AE85A.70905@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4D7AE85A.70905 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > Metadata is minimal (as Richard has noted in bitsavers). There's a lot of metadata in manx, however. I'm beginning to wonder if manx should become a CollectiveAccess catalog. Not sure yet. I know it won't evolve to its next stage (community contributions) as a standalone homebrew web app. Its just too crazy to reinvent all those wheels. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 21:44:15 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 22:44:15 -0500 Subject: DECwhatzits Message-ID: http://www.oceanviewcom.com//misc/St_Js_TE_Outside.JPG Two modules look like they came from the DEC stable, but what are they? This rack may or may not be appearing on DRMS lists sometime in the next 20 years. That is all I know about it. -- Will From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Mar 12 22:02:58 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 20:02:58 -0800 Subject: Strange Versatec Plotter question Message-ID: A very long time ago, I used to support three Versatec plotters. We'd have to use a clear liquid to clean them up. It wasn't Isopropyl Alcohol. Does anyone happen to know what it might have been? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From useddec at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 22:11:38 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 22:11:38 -0600 Subject: DEC and compatable items Message-ID: I'm trying to make a pathway into a storage unit prior to emptying it. The following are a list of items that were in the way and I don't think I'll need. If you have any questions or interest, please feel free to contact me off list. BA11-NC box has 11/23 sticker on it. No black case or white front panel, but includes the switch panel. Was working, but selling as is. This it the box, backplane, H786 power supply and switch panel only. I have boards here, and can configure a set to your specs if requested. EECO INC 2001-4 paper tape reader, looks like a RS232 interface. No idea of the history or condiction. Rokke Data table top box containing ps and 2- Seagate 41650N drives. Can sell with or without CQD-220/TMS interface and cables. Was working, good condicition. Seagate 94196-766, condiction unk. HP94758E in sealed static bag from vendor, but sitting here for a few years. several Micropolis 1355 drives,pulled from working systems, but sitting for a while-possibly stuck now? Thanks, Paul From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Mar 12 22:17:21 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 20:17:21 -0800 Subject: DECwhatzits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The racks are what the US Navy uses on board ship. I have my suspicions, I've sent the link to someone that might know something. My guess is the thing with the TK50 is a VAX. Zane At 10:44 PM -0500 3/12/11, William Donzelli wrote: >http://www.oceanviewcom.com//misc/St_Js_TE_Outside.JPG > >Two modules look like they came from the DEC stable, but what are they? > >This rack may or may not be appearing on DRMS lists sometime in the >next 20 years. That is all I know about it. > >-- >Will -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 22:25:03 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 23:25:03 -0500 Subject: DECwhatzits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > The racks are what the US Navy uses on board ship. ?I have my suspicions, > I've sent the link to someone that might know something. My guess is the > thing with the TK50 is a VAX. Yes, and I notices the F/A-18something sticker on one of the pieces. Probably a test set. -- Will From useddec at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 23:07:58 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 23:07:58 -0600 Subject: DEC and compatable items In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 10:11 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I'm trying to make a pathway into a storage unit prior to emptying it. The > following are a list of items that were in the way and I don't think I'll > need. If you have any questions or interest, please feel free to contact me > off list. > > BA11-NC box has 11/23 sticker on it. No black case or white front panel, > but includes the switch panel. Was working, but selling as is. This it the > box, backplane, H786 power supply and switch panel only. I have boards here, > and can configure a set to your specs if requested. > > EECO INC 2001-4 paper tape reader, looks like a RS232 interface. No idea of > the history or condiction. > > Rokke Data table top box containing ps and 2- Seagate 41650N drives. Can > sell with or without CQD-220/TMS interface and cables. > Was working, good condicition. > > Seagate 94196-766, condiction unk. > > HP94758E in sealed static bag from vendor, but sitting here for a few > years. > > several Micropolis 1355 drives,pulled from working systems, but sitting for > a while-possibly stuck now? > > Thanks, Paul > > opps forgot Amdek model video 300 moniror, working, in original box with > manual. > 5th generation Logical Connection with ps and cables located in Illinois, 61853 From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Mar 12 23:23:16 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 21:23:16 -0800 Subject: DECwhatzits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 11:25 PM -0500 3/12/11, William Donzelli wrote: > > The racks are what the US Navy uses on board ship. I have my suspicions, >> I've sent the link to someone that might know something. My guess is the >> thing with the TK50 is a VAX. > >Yes, and I notices the F/A-18something sticker on one of the pieces. >Probably a test set. Still waiting to hear back, but a quick google reveals that it's most likely a "Radar Set Test System" Station. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sat Mar 12 23:22:54 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 00:22:54 -0500 Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D7C54AE.3050704@compsys.to> >Shoppa, Tim wrote: >>Friends don't let friends store their archives on a media that requires physical contact >>with a read/write head. >> >As a data point: All of bitsavers fits on 27 DVD-R's. > > That is only about 125 GigaBytes? Is there any possibility of putting everything for the PDP-11 in one set of files? How much would just the PDP-11 files occupy? >I'm told that Blu-Ray recordables store 25GB (single layer) or 50 GB (dual layer) but I'm >not at the leading edge of media adoption. Only in the past year have I grudgingly >admitted that DVD-R might be halfway decent for everyday use, but I still don't trust >anything but Gold CD-R for longer term use. > > I started to use DVD-R media around 2003 for my monthly backup for a Windows 98SE system with GHOST making the image file of the C: drive. Each monthly was about 950 MB and 4 * monthly would fit on one DVD-R along with an ASCII text file with MD5 values for each image backup file. I just copied one of the 2003 backups to a current Windows XP system and checked each of the MD5 values against the known value from the ASCII text file. ALL MD5 values were the same. I must thank Tim Shoppa for the use of MD5 values to verify that a file is unchanged. Also for using bzip2 for compression. For large files that compress easily, I will save the MD5 value for both the compressed and uncompressed version, but archive only the compressed version on one DVD-R along with the file which holds the MD5 values (I also record the size of the file). Have I just been lucky? I plan to make up a few DVD-R media with just the December 31st backup to preserve one backup from the end of each year. Three DVD-R should hold all of the years along with a few individual files. Has anyone else found that DVD-R media are satisfactory for 5 years at a time? >The mainframe people use cartridge-loaded WORM media which is 60 GB per cart. I think >it's magneto-optical but who knows, maybe it's really closer to Blu-Ray type technology. For >a while (back in the 600 Mbyte/cart era) I was a big fan of the 5.25" magneto optical >carts but CD-R and DVD-R is so easy that I have a hard time going back. > > About 15 years ago, I acquired over a hundred magneto optical media for the Sony SMO S-501 along with a few drives. Since they are 295 MB on each side (590 MB per media - only one side available at a time - these are flippies), the DVD-R media at 4.7 GB are about 8 times the capacity and 1/4 the thickness. So the magneto-optical can't compete with the convenience of a DVD-R. Does anyone have much experience with Blu-Ray reliability. I really need a larger capacity media when I switch to Windows XP as the monthly backup will likely be around 8 GB. Blu-Ray would also reduce the bitsaver media needed to just TWO. Incredible. Also, what is the current time to read and / or write a 25 GB Blu-Ray media? Jerome Fine From drb at msu.edu Sat Mar 12 23:58:24 2011 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 00:58:24 -0500 Subject: DECwhatzits In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sat, 12 Mar 2011 21:23:16 PST.) References: Message-ID: <20110313055824.54C2EA5825F@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Still waiting to hear back, but a quick google reveals that it's most > likely a "Radar Set Test System" Station. The other possibility is a Range Safety and Telemetry System. I suppose either could be on board a ship. OVC _is_ in Norfolk. I see DSSI id plugs in the control panel of that machine in the upper right quadrant, so probably a vax? De From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 13 00:01:57 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 22:01:57 -0800 Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: <4D7C54AE.3050704@compsys.to> References: , <4D7C54AE.3050704@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4D7BED55.10418.2D94CED@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Mar 2011 at 0:22, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > About 15 years ago, I acquired over a hundred magneto optical media > for the Sony SMO S-501 along with a few drives. Since they are 295 MB > on each side (590 MB per media - only one side available at a time - > these are flippies), the DVD-R media at 4.7 GB are about 8 times the > capacity and 1/4 the thickness. So the magneto-optical can't compete > with the convenience of a DVD-R. Depends on the MO media that you're using. Pinnacle Micro Apex media, ISTR, is 4.7GB--and that's from the 90s. Unfortunately, PMC in it's original version is no longer with us. --Chuck From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sun Mar 13 00:34:03 2011 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 01:34:03 -0500 Subject: Strange Versatec Plotter question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Naptha (charcoal lighter) works. Iteresting subject Zane! I rode head on several versatecs myself, in seismic plots (including lunar for APOLLO), oilfield well logs etc. Loved that machine. I still have Versaplot (fortran) source if you want it. For a while there, the had a PC DMA board I got really good at writing code for, to load my next frame slice before the printer paused and the fountain shut down. Nobody wants nasty toner bands... Randy PS all copier fluid and toner for liquid copiers worked for me, 80s, no need to buy the versatec stuff. Worked in my symbolics printers too. > Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 20:02:58 -0800 > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > From: healyzh at aracnet.com > Subject: Strange Versatec Plotter question > > A very long time ago, I used to support three Versatec plotters. > We'd have to use a clear liquid to clean them up. It wasn't > Isopropyl Alcohol. Does anyone happen to know what it might have > been? > > Zane > > > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Photographer | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | My flickr Photostream | > | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Mar 13 01:50:49 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 07:50:49 -0000 Subject: DEC and compatable items In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002701cbe153$603e1e50$20ba5af0$@ntlworld.com> I would be interested in the CQD-220/TMS and any cables it might need (other than standard SCSI cables). Probably not the table top box though as I suspect shipping that to the UK would be expensive. I don't suppose you have any RD53 (Micropolis 1325 or 1335) or RD54 disks (Maxtor XT-2190) by any chance? Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Anderson > Sent: 13 March 2011 05:08 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: DEC and compatable items > > On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 10:11 PM, Paul Anderson > wrote: > > > I'm trying to make a pathway into a storage unit prior to emptying it. > > The following are a list of items that were in the way and I don't > > think I'll need. If you have any questions or interest, please feel > > free to contact me off list. > > > > BA11-NC box has 11/23 sticker on it. No black case or white front > > panel, but includes the switch panel. Was working, but selling as is. > > This it the box, backplane, H786 power supply and switch panel only. I > > have boards here, and can configure a set to your specs if requested. > > > > EECO INC 2001-4 paper tape reader, looks like a RS232 interface. No > > idea of the history or condiction. > > > > Rokke Data table top box containing ps and 2- Seagate 41650N drives. > > Can sell with or without CQD-220/TMS interface and cables. > > Was working, good condicition. > > > > Seagate 94196-766, condiction unk. > > > > HP94758E in sealed static bag from vendor, but sitting here for a few > > years. > > > > several Micropolis 1355 drives,pulled from working systems, but > > sitting for a while-possibly stuck now? > > > > Thanks, Paul > > > > > > > opps forgot Amdek model video 300 moniror, working, in original box > > with manual. > > > > 5th generation Logical Connection with ps and cables > > located in Illinois, 61853 From pontus at update.uu.se Sun Mar 13 04:28:29 2011 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 10:28:29 +0100 Subject: DECwhatzits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D7C8E3D.9030702@update.uu.se> 2011-03-13 05:17, Zane H. Healy skrev: > The racks are what the US Navy uses on board ship. I have my > suspicions, I've sent the link to someone that might know something. > My guess is the thing with the TK50 is a VAX. It is most likely a MicroVAX 3800 (I have one just the same). It is a BA213 toppled over. You have the card cage accessible from the top. And what is the top side of the pedestal version is facing forwards in the rack. If anyone gets it I'm very curious how its mounted in the rack. I believe I'm missing rails or a drawer of some kind. I've made my own quite creative rack mount :D What the rest is.. I have no clue... It looks like an HP oscilloscope in the second rack from the right. Cheers, Pontus. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 13 10:54:19 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 11:54:19 -0400 Subject: DECwhatzits In-Reply-To: <4D7C8E3D.9030702@update.uu.se> References: <4D7C8E3D.9030702@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4D7CE8AB.30508@neurotica.com> On 3/13/11 5:28 AM, Pontus wrote: > 2011-03-13 05:17, Zane H. Healy skrev: >> The racks are what the US Navy uses on board ship. I have my >> suspicions, I've sent the link to someone that might know something. >> My guess is the thing with the TK50 is a VAX. > > It is most likely a MicroVAX 3800 (I have one just the same). It is a > BA213 toppled over. You have the card cage accessible from the top. And > what is the top side of the pedestal version is facing forwards in the > rack. Yes, I don't recall the model number of that chassis. Sridhar probably does. There are a few variations of that chassis floating around. I have one at home, but I'm not there so I can't go look for the BA-number. > If anyone gets it I'm very curious how its mounted in the rack. I > believe I'm missing rails or a drawer of some kind. I've made my own > quite creative rack mount :D I have one of them factory-mounted in a DEC rack. Fairly standard rack mount rails bolt to the sides right at the bottom. > What the rest is.. I have no clue... It looks like an HP oscilloscope in > the second rack from the right. Yes, a 54110D/54111D/54112D. There are some other high-end HP goodies in there too, see my other email. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 13 10:54:32 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 11:54:32 -0400 Subject: DECwhatzits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D7CE8B8.5060401@neurotica.com> On 3/12/11 10:44 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > http://www.oceanviewcom.com//misc/St_Js_TE_Outside.JPG > > Two modules look like they came from the DEC stable, but what are they? > > This rack may or may not be appearing on DRMS lists sometime in the > next 20 years. That is all I know about it. That's quite a mish-mash of gear. Offhand I can identify: An HP spectrum analyzer, possibly 8566A (upper left) Several Lambda adjustable bench power supplies An HP signal generator, possibly 8662A (half covered by fallen panel) Two Rockand/Wavetek signal/sweep generators An HP digitizing oscilloscope, 54110D, 54111D, or 54112D A Fluke digital multimeter, almost definitely 8520A A Tektronix 600-series X/Y display A plugboard?? A big honking VARIAC A MicroVAX-3 or VAX-4000 in a horizontal S-box chassis I don't recall the BA-number of that chassis, but it's basically a BA213 on its back with the drive bays rearranged. I have one with a VAX-4000/700a in it, in a seven-foot rack that's impossibly heavy. The PDP-8/PDP-11 style panel two units above the VAX says "Digital Technology Inc." on it, but I can't read the other silkscreening, possibly " TERMINAL", but it's obviously not a terminal in the traditional sense. ;) That style of cabinet would obviously predate the VAX by at least fifteen years. I concur with Zane; these are US Navy shipboard racks. I've seen quite a few of those. It looks like someone (possibly a shyster defense contractor) threw together a massive pile of mostly-unrelated equipment in these racks. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 13 11:01:25 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 12:01:25 -0400 Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: <4D7C54AE.3050704@compsys.to> References: <4D7C54AE.3050704@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4D7CEA55.6070007@neurotica.com> On 3/13/11 12:22 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > About 15 years ago, I acquired over a hundred magneto optical media for > the Sony SMO S-501 > along with a few drives. Since they are 295 MB on each side (590 MB per > media - only one side > available at a time - these are flippies), the DVD-R media at 4.7 GB are > about 8 times the capacity > and 1/4 the thickness. So the magneto-optical can't compete with the > convenience of a DVD-R. You are comparing current-technology CD-form-factor technology with very early magneto-optical technology. M-O peaked at over 5GB. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 13 11:03:28 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 12:03:28 -0400 Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: <4D7C54AE.3050704@compsys.to> References: <4D7C54AE.3050704@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4D7CEAD0.9030203@neurotica.com> On 3/13/11 12:22 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Does anyone have much experience with Blu-Ray reliability. I really need > a larger capacity media > when I switch to Windows XP as the monthly backup will likely be around > 8 GB. Blu-Ray would > also reduce the bitsaver media needed to just TWO. Incredible. Also, > what is the current time > to read and / or write a 25 GB Blu-Ray media? I don't have any experience with Blu-Ray, so I can't answer your question, but wow...doing a FULL backup every time (WAY excessive), and doing it only monthly (WAY insufficient)? I can't even imagine living like that. You really need to investigate some incremental backup tools. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 11:38:42 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 09:38:42 -0700 Subject: DECwhatzits In-Reply-To: <4D7CE8B8.5060401@neurotica.com> References: <4D7CE8B8.5060401@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 8:54 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > ?I don't recall the BA-number of that chassis, but it's basically a BA213 on > its back with the drive bays rearranged. ?I have one with a VAX-4000/700a in > it, in a seven-foot rack that's impossibly heavy. You wouldn't have a VAX 4000 700a in a BA213, that is an all Q-Bus chassis. The upright pedestal chassis for a VAX 4000 700a is a BA440. The rack mount version of that chassis is the BA441. The system in Will's photo doesn't look like the standard front face of a BA441. Here's some BA441 photos: https://sites.google.com/site/glensvintagecomputerinfo/dec-vax-4000-ba441 Did DEC make an on its back rack mount version of the BA213? From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Mar 13 11:40:03 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 09:40:03 -0700 Subject: DECwhatzits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D7CF363.4040807@bitsavers.org> On 3/12/11 7:44 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > http://www.oceanviewcom.com//misc/St_Js_TE_Outside.JPG > > Two modules look like they came from the DEC stable, but what are they? > The one on the bottom is an Analogic array processor. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 11:40:48 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 12:40:48 -0400 Subject: DECwhatzits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: OK, found - this is an AN/APM-446 Radar Set Test Station for the F/A-18, missing a few parts. Those are indeed nice shockmounted racks - I am starting to see them in the dead ships, but I never want to actually have to move one. -- Will From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Mar 13 11:46:48 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 09:46:48 -0700 Subject: DECwhatzits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D7CF4F8.5000901@bitsavers.org> On 3/12/11 7:44 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > http://www.oceanviewcom.com//misc/St_Js_TE_Outside.JPG > > Two modules look like they came from the DEC stable, but what are they? > The one above it is probably a DTI 1553B data terminal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIL-STD-1553 From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 13 11:48:27 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 12:48:27 -0400 Subject: DECwhatzits In-Reply-To: References: <4D7CE8B8.5060401@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D7CF55B.5020106@neurotica.com> On 3/13/11 12:38 PM, Glen Slick wrote: >> I don't recall the BA-number of that chassis, but it's basically a BA213 on >> its back with the drive bays rearranged. I have one with a VAX-4000/700a in >> it, in a seven-foot rack that's impossibly heavy. > > You wouldn't have a VAX 4000 700a in a BA213, that is an all Q-Bus > chassis. The upright pedestal chassis for a VAX 4000 700a is a BA440. > The rack mount version of that chassis is the BA441. The system in > Will's photo doesn't look like the standard front face of a BA441. > > Here's some BA441 photos: > https://sites.google.com/site/glensvintagecomputerinfo/dec-vax-4000-ba441 Ahh, gotcha, BA440. I'd forgotten the distinction with the proc/mem slots. > Did DEC make an on its back rack mount version of the BA213? Yes they did; Sridhar has one. Actually I think he has two, and one of them came from me. It was pure Qbus all the way across. The one in Will's photo might be one of those. When Sridhar gets back from his trip maybe he can compare his with the photo. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 13 11:48:50 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 12:48:50 -0400 Subject: DECwhatzits In-Reply-To: <4D7CF363.4040807@bitsavers.org> References: <4D7CF363.4040807@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4D7CF572.1060305@neurotica.com> On 3/13/11 12:40 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> http://www.oceanviewcom.com//misc/St_Js_TE_Outside.JPG >> >> Two modules look like they came from the DEC stable, but what are they? > > The one on the bottom is an Analogic array processor. Ooooh, neat! Are they documented anywhere? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 13 11:50:17 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 12:50:17 -0400 Subject: DECwhatzits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D7CF5C9.2080802@neurotica.com> On 3/13/11 12:40 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > OK, found - this is an AN/APM-446 Radar Set Test Station for the > F/A-18, missing a few parts. That's quite a mishmash. I wonder how many thousands of percent the contractor's profit margin was on that. It probably cost the gov't tens of millions of dollars. > Those are indeed nice shockmounted racks - I am starting to see them > in the dead ships, but I never want to actually have to move one. I've moved one, once. AFTER unloading it (it contained one of the coveted rackmount VAX-6000s), it took four guys to lift onto the back of a pickup truck, and we were straining. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Mar 13 13:22:29 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 10:22:29 -0800 Subject: DECwhatzits In-Reply-To: <4D7CF5C9.2080802@neurotica.com> References: <4D7CF5C9.2080802@neurotica.com> Message-ID: At 12:50 PM -0400 3/13/11, Dave McGuire wrote: >On 3/13/11 12:40 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>Those are indeed nice shockmounted racks - I am starting to see them >>in the dead ships, but I never want to actually have to move one. > > I've moved one, once. AFTER unloading it (it contained one of the >coveted rackmount VAX-6000s), it took four guys to lift onto the >back of a pickup truck, and we were straining. I was involved once in moving one of the short ones from the flight deck of an Aircraft Carrier down to the compartment where it was installed. That is something I *never* want to repeat. I can't even imagine moving one of the full size ones. OTOH, I wish one of the systems I support had been mounted in these racks last Thursday night... Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 13 12:34:41 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 17:34:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Strange Versatec Plotter question In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Mar 12, 11 08:02:58 pm Message-ID: > > A very long time ago, I used to support three Versatec plotters. > We'd have to use a clear liquid to clean them up. It wasn't > Isopropyl Alcohol. Does anyone happen to know what it might have > been? The stuff I am supposed to use in my V80 is called 'Versatec Clear Dispersant' or something similar. The stuff I actually _do_ use to clean the head of my V80, unblock the pump, etc, is 'white spirit' ('turpentine substitute', used for cleaning paint brushes, etc). Works fine. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 13 13:10:02 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 14:10:02 -0400 Subject: DECwhatzits In-Reply-To: References: <4D7CF5C9.2080802@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D7D087A.8060202@neurotica.com> On 3/13/11 2:22 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> Those are indeed nice shockmounted racks - I am starting to see them >>> in the dead ships, but I never want to actually have to move one. >> >> I've moved one, once. AFTER unloading it (it contained one of the >> coveted rackmount VAX-6000s), it took four guys to lift onto the back >> of a pickup truck, and we were straining. > > I was involved once in moving one of the short ones from the flight deck > of an Aircraft Carrier down to the compartment where it was installed. > That is something I *never* want to repeat. Ugh. > I can't even imagine moving one of the full size ones. We only had to lift it off of a pallet and lay it down into the bed of a pickup truck and STILL it was a painful experience. > OTOH, I wish one > of the systems I support had been mounted in these racks last Thursday > night... What happened? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pcw at mesanet.com Sun Mar 13 13:07:08 2011 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 11:07:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Strange Versatec Plotter question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Mar 2011, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 20:02:58 -0800 > From: Zane H. Healy > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > Subject: Strange Versatec Plotter question > > A very long time ago, I used to support three Versatec plotters. We'd have to > use a clear liquid to clean them up. It wasn't Isopropyl Alcohol. Does > anyone happen to know what it might have been? > > Zane > I think the clear dispersant is a isoparafine, probably the deodorized kerosine used for camp stoves would do. I still have a 3436 400 DPI color plotter in the corner of the junk room at work. We used to use it for PCB plots, I built my own PC interface card with FIFO and output handshaking state machine logic for it many years ago. Now it just sits. I'm to lazy get rid if its 600? pound carcass. BTW it uses a TMS 9900 derivative for control. Peter Wallace From legalize at xmission.com Sun Mar 13 14:16:38 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 13:16:38 -0600 Subject: DECwhatzits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , "Zane H. Healy" writes: > Still waiting to hear back, but a quick google reveals that it's most > likely a "Radar Set Test System" Station. Ah... and I had hopes that RSTS referred to the DEC OS :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sun Mar 13 14:26:45 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 13:26:45 -0600 Subject: DEC and compatable items In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Paul Anderson writes: > HP94758E in sealed static bag from vendor, but sitting here for a few years. What is this? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 13 14:17:26 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 19:17:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Strange Versatec Plotter question In-Reply-To: from "Peter C. Wallace" at Mar 13, 11 11:07:08 am Message-ID: > I think the clear dispersant is a isoparafine, probably the deodorized > kerosine used for camp stoves would do. I still have a 3436 400 DPI color > plotter in the corner of the junk room at work. We used to use it for PCB > plots, I built my own PC interface card with FIFO and output handshaking > state machine logic for it many years ago. Now it just sits. I'm to lazy get > rid if its 600? pound carcass. BTW it uses a TMS 9900 derivative for > control. My V80 has a TMS9900 seires procssor in it too, along with some state machines (I think there may be a 2900-series sequencer chip involved) to cotnrol the timing for the signals to the electrodes. On a more genrarl point, why do namy collectors regard old printers/plotters/other peripherals as 'junk' while processorts from the same vintage are 'interesting'? As I've said before, I'm very much a hardware person, and can find interest in all sorts of odd hardware. Yes, procssors are interesting -- of course they are. But to me the motor control logic of, say, an HP7245 printer/plotter is more interesting than many microcomputers. So is the electrode control logic of the V80. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 13 14:52:22 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 15:52:22 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 Operating Systems In-Reply-To: <201103112339.37169.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <201103112100.15058.rtellason@verizon.net> <4D7AD8DB.8000007@neurotica.com> <201103112339.37169.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4D7D2076.4050303@neurotica.com> On 3/11/11 11:39 PM, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote: >>> OTOH, I have a 486 ISA peecee that _does_ say "digital" on the front >>> of it. I didn't know they were into this stuff, too... >> >> Yep, I've worked with those. Bog-standard cheap PCs. > > Not this one. Compared to the other 486 boxes in the pile up in the attic this one's built like a tank. :-) Oh wow, seriously? Whose BIOS does it use? >> But...do you remember the "applicationDEC 433MP"? > > Nope. Not surprising. :) >> They put "application" before "DEC" in the name to "emphasize the >> application-oriented nature of the system" blah blah blah. The decision >> of a just-out-of-college marketing suit, no doubt. >> >> It was an odd multiprocessor 80486-based machine that was nowhere near >> PC-compatible, if memory serves. Needless to say I think they sold >> about four of them. I'd bet that marketing guy is a night manager at a >> Wal*Mart now. > > Heh. I wonder if anyone here has one. >>> Darn thing only seems to want parity RAM, too. >> >> That figures. > > I think I have something like 20M in it now, I'll get it up to 64M eventually. :-) Sick-o. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From useddec at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 14:55:00 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 14:55:00 -0500 Subject: DEC and compatable items In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry, static bag is mislabled. I can see through it and the factory sticker says 97548E. As far as I can tell, a 5 1/4 full height 677MB ESDI drive On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 2:26 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article , > Paul Anderson writes: > > > HP94758E in sealed static bag from vendor, but sitting here for a few > years. > > What is this? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Sun Mar 13 15:01:54 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 21:01:54 +0100 Subject: DECwhatzits In-Reply-To: <4D7CE8AB.30508@neurotica.com> References: <4D7C8E3D.9030702@update.uu.se> <4D7CE8AB.30508@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110313200154.GA22297@Update.UU.SE> On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 11:54:19AM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > Yes, a 54110D/54111D/54112D. There are some other high-end HP > goodies in there too, see my other email. I wonder what the blue and yellow patch panel is. The one under the "3675 Lbs" writing. /P From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 13 15:15:31 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 16:15:31 -0400 Subject: DECwhatzits In-Reply-To: <20110313200154.GA22297@Update.UU.SE> References: <4D7C8E3D.9030702@update.uu.se> <4D7CE8AB.30508@neurotica.com> <20110313200154.GA22297@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4D7D25E3.4080803@neurotica.com> On 3/13/11 4:01 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> Yes, a 54110D/54111D/54112D. There are some other high-end HP >> goodies in there too, see my other email. > > I wonder what the blue and yellow patch panel is. The one under the > "3675 Lbs" writing. I was wondering about that myself. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 15:27:31 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 16:27:31 -0400 Subject: DECwhatzits In-Reply-To: <20110313200154.GA22297@Update.UU.SE> References: <4D7C8E3D.9030702@update.uu.se> <4D7CE8AB.30508@neurotica.com> <20110313200154.GA22297@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: > I wonder what the blue and yellow patch panel is. The one under the > "3675 Lbs" writing. It is very likely for setting up the different tests to be performed on the radar - a patch, just as the name says. The system looks like a Navy (USMC) homebrew, as many test sets of this era are. -- Will From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Mar 13 16:27:29 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 13:27:29 -0800 Subject: Strange Versatec Plotter question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thankfully I no longer have access to Versatec Plotters. About 6-7 years ago after not having touched plotters in several years I was given the entire printing environment to support. A couple years later I was horrified to uncover hidden in old records that we had a whole pile of the plotters sitting in warehouse storage costing the company money. They were disposed of. I do have a Q-Bus interface for one sitting out in the garage. Zane At 1:34 AM -0500 3/13/11, Randy Dawson wrote: >Naptha (charcoal lighter) works. > >Iteresting subject Zane! > >I rode head on several versatecs myself, in seismic plots (including >lunar for APOLLO), oilfield well logs etc. Loved that machine. > >I still have Versaplot (fortran) source if you want it. > >For a while there, the had a PC DMA board I got really good at >writing code for, to load my next frame slice before the printer >paused and the fountain shut down. > >Nobody wants nasty toner bands... > >Randy > >PS all copier fluid and toner for liquid copiers worked for me, 80s, >no need to buy the versatec stuff. Worked in my symbolics printers >too. > >> Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 20:02:58 -0800 >> To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org >> From: healyzh at aracnet.com >> Subject: Strange Versatec Plotter question >> >> A very long time ago, I used to support three Versatec plotters. >> We'd have to use a clear liquid to clean them up. It wasn't >> Isopropyl Alcohol. Does anyone happen to know what it might have >> been? >> >> Zane >> >> >> >> >> -- >> | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >> | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >> | | Photographer | >> +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >> | My flickr Photostream | >> | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | > -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Mar 13 16:28:30 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 13:28:30 -0800 Subject: Strange Versatec Plotter question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 5:34 PM +0000 3/13/11, Tony Duell wrote: >The stuff I am supposed to use in my V80 is called 'Versatec Clear >Dispersant' or something similar. That's it! Thanks Tony! >The stuff I actually _do_ use to clean the head of my V80, unblock the >pump, etc, is 'white spirit' ('turpentine substitute', used for cleaning >paint brushes, etc). Works fine. Good to know. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From brianlanning at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 15:35:30 2011 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 15:35:30 -0500 Subject: OT: Can someone help me pick out a desktop machine? Message-ID: I've not been paying attention to computer hardware for a while, and all of the marketing terms have gotten away from me. It has to come from Office Depot. My wife was able to get roughly $650 for free, so I need to get it from there. I'd prefer to build my own, but money is short and this deal is too good. It looks like they have HP/Compaq (yuk), Acer, and Lenovo. I'm going to aim for a machine with quad cores and 8 gigs of ram. I can spend a little more than the $650, but not by much. My main problem with picking out a machine is that I don't understand the differences in processors beyond the number of cores. In the good old days, they'd list the processor speed and that was all you needed. Now even that's not a good measure. Can anyone suggest some must-have or must-avoid specs for these machines? From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 13 15:36:48 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 16:36:48 -0400 Subject: Strange Versatec Plotter question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D7D2AE0.6050902@neurotica.com> On 3/13/11 5:27 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Thankfully I no longer have access to Versatec Plotters. About 6-7 years > ago after not having touched plotters in several years I was given the > entire printing environment to support. A couple years later I was > horrified to uncover hidden in old records that we had a whole pile of > the plotters sitting in warehouse storage costing the company money. > They were disposed of. *sob* -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Mar 13 16:45:52 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 13:45:52 -0800 Subject: Strange Versatec Plotter question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 7:17 PM +0000 3/13/11, Tony Duell wrote: >On a more genrarl point, why do namy collectors regard old >printers/plotters/other peripherals as 'junk' while processorts from the >same vintage are 'interesting'? As I've said before, I'm very much a >hardware person, and can find interest in all sorts of odd hardware. When it comes to plotters I think it's less a case of considering them junk, and more a case of considering them rather troublesome and large. :-) There is also the case of some of them using supplies that really should be stored in a Hazmat locker. I still have at least 3 or 4 old printers out in the garage. I also suspect most collectors don't put as much value on being able to print from these systems as you do. Of the printers I have, two are DEC LA75's, I think I have a couple Applewriters still, and I got a Commodore Printer finally last year, along with a C1520 plotter (I was really happy about that, as I had one for my VIC-20 in the 80's). I have quite a selection of peripherals I've collected for Commodore systems over the years. Some for DEC (or a *LOT* if you count drives), and a couple for Apple ][, most of the Mac & PC peripherals are ones I bought new for my own systems, and have simply hung onto them. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Mar 13 16:51:11 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 13:51:11 -0800 Subject: DECwhatzits In-Reply-To: <4D7D087A.8060202@neurotica.com> References: <4D7CF5C9.2080802@neurotica.com> <4D7D087A.8060202@neurotica.com> Message-ID: At 2:10 PM -0400 3/13/11, Dave McGuire wrote: >On 3/13/11 2:22 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>OTOH, I wish one >>of the systems I support had been mounted in these racks last Thursday >>night... > > What happened? Hint... Have you seen the news since early Friday? :-( It might be a while before we know just what happened to it. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 13 15:58:55 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 16:58:55 -0400 Subject: DECwhatzits In-Reply-To: References: <4D7CF5C9.2080802@neurotica.com> <4D7D087A.8060202@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D7D300F.5040607@neurotica.com> On 3/13/11 5:51 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> OTOH, I wish one >>> of the systems I support had been mounted in these racks last Thursday >>> night... >> >> What happened? > > Hint... Have you seen the news since early Friday? :-( It might be a > while before we know just what happened to it. Oh my, you had something over there? :-/ All I can do is just shake my head. It's mind-blowing. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Sun Mar 13 16:07:37 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 15:07:37 -0600 Subject: Strange Versatec Plotter question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If people are looking to get rid of old plotters or other graphics hardware output devices, please contact me. Computer graphics history is split between displays and print output devices as far as hardware is concerned. Given the engineering context of much early computer graphics, the paper output devices are just as important as the displays. By the time graphics evolves to the consumer entertainment area, people aren't as interested in printed output. (When was the last time you wanted a printed output from your Xbox 360?) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 13 16:13:05 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 17:13:05 -0400 Subject: Strange Versatec Plotter question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D7D3361.9010303@neurotica.com> On 3/13/11 5:45 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > When it comes to plotters I think it's less a case of considering them > junk, and more a case of considering them rather troublesome and large. > :-) There is also the case of some of them using supplies that really > should be stored in a Hazmat locker. I still have at least 3 or 4 old > printers out in the garage. I also suspect most collectors don't put as > much value on being able to print from these systems as you do. I do, for one! :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 16:24:06 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 17:24:06 -0400 Subject: OT: Can someone help me pick out a desktop machine? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I've not been paying attention to computer hardware for a while, and > all of the marketing terms have gotten away from me. Well, not paying attention to computer hardware for a while is sort of the whole point of this list. You will likely get a better answer elsewhere. -- Will From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Mar 13 16:26:32 2011 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason, Sr.) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 16:26:32 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 Operating Systems In-Reply-To: <4D7D2076.4050303@neurotica.com> References: <201103112339.37169.rtellason@verizon.net> <4D7D2076.4050303@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201103131726.33166.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 13 March 2011 03:52:22 pm Dave McGuire wrote: > On 3/11/11 11:39 PM, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote: > >>> OTOH, I have a 486 ISA peecee that _does_ say "digital" on the front > >>> of it. I didn't know they were into this stuff, too... > >> > >> Yep, I've worked with those. Bog-standard cheap PCs. > > > > Not this one. Compared to the other 486 boxes in the pile up in the attic this one's built like a tank. :-) > > Oh wow, seriously? Whose BIOS does it use? Good question. I haven't fired it up in ages... I had at one point intended to use that box to run OS/2. In recent conversation it came back to me why I still might want to, after thinking that I didn't have any particular reason to. Basically that it'd get me the ability to run some DOS-type apps (machine control stuff mostly) and be networked at the same time. I sure don't care too much for some of the other choices when it comes to networking early stuff like that, and running linux on everything else here has me kinda spoiled. :-) (snip) > >>> Darn thing only seems to want parity RAM, too. > >> > >> That figures. > > > > I think I have something like 20M in it now, I'll get it up to 64M eventually. :-) > > Sick-o. ;) I have a pile of 72-pin parts around here someplace waiting for me to test them, anyhow, at least find out what sizes they are... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 13 16:33:08 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 17:33:08 -0400 Subject: OT: Can someone help me pick out a desktop machine? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D7D3814.6040002@neurotica.com> On 3/13/11 5:24 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I've not been paying attention to computer hardware for a while, and >> all of the marketing terms have gotten away from me. > > Well, not paying attention to computer hardware for a while is sort of > the whole point of this list. > > You will likely get a better answer elsewhere. I don't know about that. A lot of people here work with (modern) computers professionally. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dgahling at hotmail.com Sun Mar 13 16:46:42 2011 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 17:46:42 -0400 Subject: OT: Can someone help me pick out a desktop machine? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The only basic recommendation I can make is, make sure it has an AMD cpu. Now, before this gets into another CPU flame war, Intel has for a while decided that the users/owners rights don't matter, it's DRM (digital rights management) all the way for them, with even the ability to disable or remove software "they" don't want you to run. oh, you paid for that program? that's too bad. no thanks, when I buy a machine, I buy it, not a license to use it. go ahead, get Intel, let them monitor everything you do. but the usual fanboys will say - the faster is better, more cores is better, more FSB is better, larger cache is better. blah why a desktop anyhow? why not a decent notebook? why not an ipad2 (its under your price requirement) ? the desktop days are numbered (yeah, just like the year of the linux desktop is every year) most companies aren't even making desktops any more, or are cutting back, or ending soon. good luck! > Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 15:35:30 -0500 > Subject: OT: Can someone help me pick out a desktop machine? > From: brianlanning at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > I've not been paying attention to computer hardware for a while, and > all of the marketing terms have gotten away from me. It has to come > from Office Depot. My wife was able to get roughly $650 for free, so > I need to get it from there. I'd prefer to build my own, but money is > short and this deal is too good. It looks like they have HP/Compaq > (yuk), Acer, and Lenovo. I'm going to aim for a machine with quad > cores and 8 gigs of ram. I can spend a little more than the $650, but > not by much. My main problem with picking out a machine is that I > don't understand the differences in processors beyond the number of > cores. In the good old days, they'd list the processor speed and that > was all you needed. Now even that's not a good measure. Can anyone > suggest some must-have or must-avoid specs for these machines? From brianlanning at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 17:26:16 2011 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 17:26:16 -0500 Subject: OT: Can someone help me pick out a desktop machine? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 4:46 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > The only basic recommendation I can make is, make sure it has an AMD cpu. > > Now, before this gets into another CPU flame war, > Intel has for a while decided that the users/owners rights don't matter, > it's DRM (digital rights management) all the way for them, > with even the ability to disable or remove software "they" don't want you to run. > oh, you paid for that program? that's too bad. > > no thanks, when I buy a machine, I buy it, not a license to use it. > go ahead, get Intel, let them monitor everything you do. I didn't know that! Thanks! > but the usual fanboys will say - the faster is better, more cores is better, more FSB is better, larger cache is better. blah I found an HP machine there for around $850 that has a 6 core AMD chip and 8 gigs of ram. The motherboard can take 16 gigs also. I think that may be the winner. > why a desktop anyhow? why not a decent notebook? why not an ipad2 (its under your price requirement) ? > the desktop days are numbered (yeah, just like the year of the linux desktop is every year) I really dislike notebooks. I think they have less power for the money. They're also less expandable. I've also had a lot of problems from a variety of notebook manufacturers. For gateway, the keys fell off. For a few toshibas, the power bricks crapped out, then the power connector in the machine broke so you can't charge. My daughter had an asus or acer or something with flaky 802.11g. It would drop the connection making her reconnect every 5 minutes, then went out completely. Replaced it, then the new one did the same. I can't seem to get one that just keeps working. I have amiga computers that still work, why can't a notebook last more than 3 months? I just prefer desktops. You can swap out the keyboard and mouse whenever you like also, and upgrade the video. I know you can attach all those to notebooks also, but why pay for extra parts when you'll just attach desktop parts? > most companies aren't even making desktops any more, or are cutting back, or ending soon. There's a good selection on the office depot site. If it were up to me, I'd just build one from scratch. Can't pass up the great gift card though. I was able to transplant my current HP computer into a new case to get away from the cheesy extra doors and doo-dads on the front of the machine. I'll probably do the same with this one. brian From a50mhzham at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 17:46:49 2011 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 17:46:49 -0500 Subject: OT: Can someone help me pick out a desktop machine? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4d7d49ab.ad05ec0a.6e1e.5593@mx.google.com> >short and this deal is too good. It looks like they have HP/Compaq >(yuk), Acer, and Lenovo. I'm going to aim for a machine with quad We use lots of HPaq machines at work, what's the matter with them? >cores and 8 gigs of ram. I can spend a little more than the $650, but >not by much. My main problem with picking out a machine is that I >don't understand the differences in processors beyond the number of >cores. In the good old days, they'd list the processor speed and that Link below: CPU comparison charts, ranked by PassMark score. Yes, I know, not everyone thinks the PassMark benchmark is completely valid; lots of people swear by them, others swear at them. But it's better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick. Some of these charts were updated today. http://www.cpubenchmark.net/ There are (presently) four brackets of CPU charted - high-end, mid to high, low to mid, and low-end. They have prices listed for many of the chips that are still current. Since they keep some chips on there for historical comparison, and since computing capacity seems to mostly go up, most of the ones on the low-end chart have no prices and are no longer available new. The Intel Atom parts are the exceptions. Then there are 12 charts over in total. 204 . [Philosophy] "Cutting the space budget really restores my faith in humanity. It eliminates dreams, goals, and ideals and lets us get straight to the business of hate, debauchery, and self-annihilation." --Johnny Hart NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From a50mhzham at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 18:03:00 2011 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 18:03:00 -0500 Subject: OT: Can someone help me pick out a desktop machine? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4d7d4ef1.65c2ec0a.6613.4ce3@mx.google.com> At 05:26 PM 3/13/2011, you wrote: >On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 4:46 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > > > The only basic recommendation I can make is, make sure it has an AMD cpu. > > > > Now, before this gets into another CPU flame war, > > Intel has for a while decided that the users/owners rights don't matter, > > it's DRM (digital rights management) all the way for them, > > with even the ability to disable or remove > software "they" don't want you to run. > > oh, you paid for that program? that's too bad. > > > > no thanks, when I buy a machine, I buy it, not a license to use it. > > go ahead, get Intel, let them monitor everything you do. > >I didn't know that! Thanks! > > > but the usual fanboys will say - the faster > is better, more cores is better, more FSB is > better, larger cache is better. blah > >I found an HP machine there for around $850 that has a 6 core AMD chip >and 8 gigs of ram. The motherboard can take 16 gigs also. I think >that may be the winner. The box I just built from scratch has a AMD Phenom II X6 1090T "Black" CPU. I ran their overclocking utility and got 17% boost without even really trying hard. It's running at 3.7 mhz (3.2 mhz nominal cpu) though I suppose I could push it harder by upping the voltage a little. > > why a desktop anyhow? why not a decent > notebook? why not an ipad2 (its under your price requirement) ? > > the desktop days are numbered (yeah, just > like the year of the linux desktop is every year) Not a chance. The public buys notebooks and laptops and pads because they're cool, but in my job, repairability is crucial, and it's also a little harder to steal a desktop. Or lose it. >I really dislike notebooks. I think they have less power for the >money. They're also less expandable. I've also had a lot of problems >from a variety of notebook manufacturers. For gateway, the keys fell >off. For a few toshibas, the power bricks crapped out, then the power >connector in the machine broke so you can't charge. My daughter had >an asus or acer or something with flaky 802.11g. It would drop the >connection making her reconnect every 5 minutes, then went out >completely. Replaced it, then the new one did the same. I can't seem >to get one that just keeps working. I have amiga computers that still >work, why can't a notebook last more than 3 months? Preach it brother. I'm right with you. > > most companies aren't even making desktops > any more, or are cutting back, or ending soon. > 846 . One tentacle, one vote. NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Mar 13 18:48:05 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 16:48:05 -0700 Subject: OT: Can someone help me pick out a desktop machine? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D7D57B5.8040809@brouhaha.com> Dan Gahlinger wrote: > The only basic recommendation I can make is, make sure it has an AMD cpu. > Now, before this gets into another CPU flame war, > Intel has for a while decided that the users/owners rights don't matter, > it's DRM (digital rights management) all the way for them, In case anyone might think that this is only Dan's opinion, I would point out that Intel actually publicly stated this as their position: "The actual user of the PC -- someone who can do anything they want -- is the enemy." -- David Aucsmith of Intel, quoted by Robert Lemos in "The biggest security threat: You", ZDNet, 26-FEB-1999 Aside from that, I prefer systems with AMD processors because all AMD desktop processors have support for ECC memory, while Intel mostly reserves that for its more expensive Xeon brand, and few Intel "Core" processors have it. From als at thangorodrim.de Sun Mar 13 19:22:50 2011 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 01:22:50 +0100 Subject: OT: Can someone help me pick out a desktop machine? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110314002250.GA15384@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 05:26:16PM -0500, Brian Lanning wrote: > On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 4:46 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > > > why a desktop anyhow? why not a decent notebook? why not an ipad2 (its under your price requirement) ? > > the desktop days are numbered (yeah, just like the year of the linux desktop is every year) > > I really dislike notebooks. I think they have less power for the > money. They're also less expandable. That's part of the price you pay for getting machine that is - easy to carry around due to small size and low weight - sips little enough power to work for a few hours on the batteries. If you want the power of a big desktop, be prepared for a "luggable computer" and an extra cart for the batteries ;-) > I've also had a lot of problems > from a variety of notebook manufacturers. For gateway, the keys fell > off. For a few toshibas, the power bricks crapped out, then the power > connector in the machine broke so you can't charge. My daughter had > an asus or acer or something with flaky 802.11g. It would drop the > connection making her reconnect every 5 minutes, then went out > completely. Replaced it, then the new one did the same. I can't seem > to get one that just keeps working. I have amiga computers that still > work, why can't a notebook last more than 3 months? I've been using Thinkpads (T43p until almost two years ago, a X200 currently) and I'm very happy with them. They are solid, reliable workhorses, plain and simply. Of course, I also have my desktops (home & work), the laptop is really just a mobile computer for me. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Mar 13 20:39:20 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 21:39:20 -0400 Subject: OT: Can someone help me pick out a desktop machine? In-Reply-To: <4d7d4ef1.65c2ec0a.6613.4ce3@mx.google.com> References: <4d7d4ef1.65c2ec0a.6613.4ce3@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4D7D71C8.6080007@atarimuseum.com> Try tigerdirect.com or 3btech.com they have great deals on modern gear Tom wrote: > > At 05:26 PM 3/13/2011, you wrote: >> On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 4:46 PM, Dan Gahlinger >> wrote: >> > >> > The only basic recommendation I can make is, make sure it has an >> AMD cpu. >> > >> > Now, before this gets into another CPU flame war, >> > Intel has for a while decided that the users/owners rights don't >> matter, >> > it's DRM (digital rights management) all the way for them, >> > with even the ability to disable or remove software "they" don't >> want you to run. >> > oh, you paid for that program? that's too bad. >> > >> > no thanks, when I buy a machine, I buy it, not a license to use it. >> > go ahead, get Intel, let them monitor everything you do. >> >> I didn't know that! Thanks! >> >> > but the usual fanboys will say - the faster is better, more cores >> is better, more FSB is better, larger cache is better. blah >> >> I found an HP machine there for around $850 that has a 6 core AMD chip >> and 8 gigs of ram. The motherboard can take 16 gigs also. I think >> that may be the winner. > > The box I just built from scratch has a AMD Phenom II X6 1090T "Black" > CPU. I ran their overclocking utility and got 17% boost without even > really trying hard. It's running at 3.7 mhz (3.2 mhz nominal cpu) > though I suppose I could push it harder by upping the voltage a little. > >> > why a desktop anyhow? why not a decent notebook? why not an ipad2 >> (its under your price requirement) ? >> > the desktop days are numbered (yeah, just like the year of the >> linux desktop is every year) > > Not a chance. The public buys notebooks and laptops and pads because > they're cool, but in my job, repairability is crucial, and it's also a > little harder to steal a desktop. Or lose it. > >> I really dislike notebooks. I think they have less power for the >> money. They're also less expandable. I've also had a lot of problems >> from a variety of notebook manufacturers. For gateway, the keys fell >> off. For a few toshibas, the power bricks crapped out, then the power >> connector in the machine broke so you can't charge. My daughter had >> an asus or acer or something with flaky 802.11g. It would drop the >> connection making her reconnect every 5 minutes, then went out >> completely. Replaced it, then the new one did the same. I can't seem >> to get one that just keeps working. I have amiga computers that still >> work, why can't a notebook last more than 3 months? > > Preach it brother. I'm right with you. > >> > most companies aren't even making desktops any more, or are cutting >> back, or ending soon. >> > > > 846 . One tentacle, one vote. > NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) > "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON > FACEBOOK > 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc > LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux > User 385531 > > From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 14 08:54:05 2011 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 08:54:05 -0500 Subject: TI-99/4a display question In-Reply-To: <4D7B219F.9050604@snarc.net> References: <4D7B219F.9050604@snarc.net> Message-ID: They were... a horribly, horribly overpriced monitor (10" for $400). Most people did use TVs or plain old composite monitors. On Mar 12, 2011, at 1:32 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Was the TI-99/4a marketed with a TI-branded monitor? Or did most people use a television? From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Mar 14 09:03:07 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 07:03:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TI-99/4a display question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <342946.43823.qm@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> > On Mar 12, 2011, at 1:32 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > > Was the TI-99/4a marketed with a TI-branded > monitor? Or did most people use a television? > >--- On Mon, 3/14/11, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > They were... a horribly, horribly > overpriced monitor (10" for $400). Most people did use TVs > or plain old composite monitors. > Yeah. As Geoff says, they did make TI branded monitors. There were two that I am aware of - the early one, which was simply a modified 12" Zenith color television, and the later one, which was a much better 10" composite monitor. They were rare though. Most people bought the TI-99/4a because it was on clearance at the toy store and looked like fun. They just hooked it up to the TV set. Note that the TI only outputs composite video. The big clunky switchbox thing that came with the computer is a standalone composite to RF modulator, and it's powered by a 12v line on the video DIN plug. For a "period appropriate" setup, you'd want an 80's TV set. If, however, someone was serious enough to actually buy the PEB and upgrade the system, they would also have a real monitor. Any of the usual composite color video monitors were popular. TI's one for this era was pretty nice, but expensive and small. Something like the Amdek Color I would probably have been more common. -Ian From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Mar 14 09:14:34 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 10:14:34 -0400 Subject: OT: Can someone help me pick out a desktop machine? Message-ID: IMHO: Don't get sucked up in the hi-end desktop rat race. If you need to buy a desktop machine with Windows, make it a low-end refurbed one (not sure Office Depot has any but other places do, starting at $100.) Use the Office Depot credit to buy other things (e.g. screen, printer, etc.). If you do want a best-for-$650-hardware Intel machine, the market is somewhere between "pause" and "tumultuous" as the industry deals with the Intel Sandy Bridge issues. 1366 mobos and CPU's are available but will likely put you above your price point. AMD stuff is available but doesn't promise the performance of a Sandy Bridge machine that you probably can't buy :). Again, just don't get sucked into the rat race. From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 14 09:27:29 2011 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 09:27:29 -0500 Subject: TI-99/4a display question In-Reply-To: <342946.43823.qm@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <342946.43823.qm@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <99957193-FEB0-44EE-BB17-048C2CEBD58F@bellsouth.net> I think the TI one was a rebranded Panasonic. My dad at the time bought a 13" Panasonic composite monitor for about the same price if memory serves. On Mar 14, 2011, at 9:03 AM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> On Mar 12, 2011, at 1:32 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> >>> Was the TI-99/4a marketed with a TI-branded >> monitor? Or did most people use a television? >> >> --- On Mon, 3/14/11, Geoff Oltmans wrote: >> They were... a horribly, horribly >> overpriced monitor (10" for $400). Most people did use TVs >> or plain old composite monitors. >> > > Yeah. As Geoff says, they did make TI branded monitors. There were two that I am aware of - the early one, which was simply a modified 12" Zenith color television, and the later one, which was a much better 10" composite monitor. > > They were rare though. Most people bought the TI-99/4a because it was on clearance at the toy store and looked like fun. They just hooked it up to the TV set. Note that the TI only outputs composite video. The big clunky switchbox thing that came with the computer is a standalone composite to RF modulator, and it's powered by a 12v line on the video DIN plug. > > For a "period appropriate" setup, you'd want an 80's TV set. > > If, however, someone was serious enough to actually buy the PEB and upgrade the system, they would also have a real monitor. Any of the usual composite color video monitors were popular. TI's one for this era was pretty nice, but expensive and small. Something like the Amdek Color I would probably have been more common. > > -Ian From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 14 10:16:38 2011 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 15:16:38 +0000 Subject: OT: Can someone help me pick out a desktop machine? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D7E3156.20109@aurigae.demon.co.uk> On 14/03/2011 14:14, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > AMD stuff is available > but doesn't promise the performance of a Sandy Bridge machine that > you probably can't buy :). Again, just don't get sucked into the rat > race. I keep hearing this "Intel make CPUs that wipe the floor AMDs" over and over again, and whilst true this doesn't tell the whole story. I have personally found, at the times I have felt the need to upgrade that AMD processors offer the best trade off of price and performance (for me at least). Yes there are faster Intels but they are also *MUCH* more expensive, sometimes by several times :( Cheers. Phill. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 14 10:25:14 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 11:25:14 -0400 Subject: OT: Can someone help me pick out a desktop machine? In-Reply-To: <4D7E3156.20109@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <4D7E3156.20109@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4D7E335A.5010904@neurotica.com> On 3/14/11 11:16 AM, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: >> AMD stuff is available >> but doesn't promise the performance of a Sandy Bridge machine that >> you probably can't buy :). Again, just don't get sucked into the rat >> race. > > I keep hearing this "Intel make CPUs that wipe the floor AMDs" over and > over again, and whilst true this doesn't tell the whole story. Is that actually true? One company I run some systems for has a bunch of Opterons and a bunch of Xeons, and consistently I can put a lot more load on the Opterons before they start behaving like molasses. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dgahling at hotmail.com Mon Mar 14 10:31:39 2011 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 11:31:39 -0400 Subject: OT: Can someone help me pick out a desktop machine? In-Reply-To: <4D7E3156.20109@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: , <4D7E3156.20109@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: there are also faster AMDs, if you have the money ;) > Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 15:16:38 +0000 > From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk > To: > Subject: Re: OT: Can someone help me pick out a desktop machine? > > On 14/03/2011 14:14, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > > AMD stuff is available > > but doesn't promise the performance of a Sandy Bridge machine that > > you probably can't buy :). Again, just don't get sucked into the rat > > race. > > I keep hearing this "Intel make CPUs that wipe the floor AMDs" over and > over again, and whilst true this doesn't tell the whole story. I have > personally found, at the times I have felt the need to upgrade that AMD > processors offer the best trade off of price and performance (for me at > least). > > Yes there are faster Intels but they are also *MUCH* more expensive, > sometimes by several times :( > > Cheers. > > Phill. From jgessling at btmg.com Fri Mar 11 16:26:58 2011 From: jgessling at btmg.com (James Gessling) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 14:26:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-11 Operating Systems Message-ID: <11031114265870_20804A26@btmg.com> MUMPS has had (and continues to have) a niche market in financial systems also. TD Ameritrade uses it, not sure for what exact purpose. I ran into it while working for that bank with the stagecoach when conversion from a home grown Prime Computer based system was under consideration. I'm currently employed by a medical group that uses Intersystems Cache (MUMPS based) on VMS for production applications. Regards, Jim ________________________________________________________________ The information contained in this email is legally privileged and confidential information only for the use of the individual or Brown & Toland Medical Group. Any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this document is strictly prohibited. If you have received this in error, please immediately notify the sender by replying to this message, and then delete all copies of it from your system. Thank you. From spedraja at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 13:04:55 2011 From: spedraja at gmail.com (SPC) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 20:04:55 +0100 Subject: Usb typewriter Message-ID: I suppose this is well known for all of you, but I didn't hear about it. http://www.usbtypewriter.com/ -- Saludos - Greetings - Freundliche Gr??e - Salutations Sergio ----- "No creas todo lo que ves, ni creas que estas viendolo todo" From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 11 15:15:40 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 13:15:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: A first for the VCF ..... epic technical poetry! In-Reply-To: <4D79D966.4060305@snarc.net> Message-ID: <484824.77968.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> *chirp chirp...chirp* From jlobocki at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 17:21:47 2011 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:21:47 -0600 Subject: SUN Ultra 5 NVRAM In-Reply-To: <20110310204410.7f19dced.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <41FE74455DA3430B84971BF0B828A2F7@dell8300> <20110310204410.7f19dced.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: If you don't mind doing a bit of physical hacking, you could try this (has pics) http://www.vdheijden-messerli.net/sgistuff/photos/2009.11.24-sun-nvram/ From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Fri Mar 11 22:25:41 2011 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 15:25:41 +1100 Subject: PDP-11 Operating Systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <839EEC86-4A53-4722-B8B0-029CF611BBE0@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 11/03/2011, at 10:01 PM, Wolfgang Eichberger wrote: > > Here's a little sum-up about Systems I didn't came across so far: > CAPS-11, CTS-300 and -500, DSM-11, DURESS, GAMMA-11, HT-11, MERTS, > Micropower Pascal, MONECS, MTS, PC-11, RUST/XM, SPHERE, TRAX > > If you have any information about the Operating Systems mentioned in > this message or can help out with disk images, disks, sources etc. I'd > greatly appreciate if you'd drop a line. OK, I have a little information about MONECS (Monash University Educational Computing System). This was a joint project between Monash University and Digital Equipment Australia. It consisted of a card reader - using mark sense or the push out the chad with a paper clip cards (do these cards have a real name?), a PDP-11 (perhaps an 11/23+ - it's been a while and I'm more a 36bit kind of guy) and a printer (LA-120 perhaps). It supported Fortran, Pascal and COBOL (and probably other languages as well). It was a real batch system - students would stand in a queue for the card reader, load their deck, push the start read button and it would compile (to a pseudo-code), run (if possible) and produce a listing. Eventually (at least at La Trobe University where I worked), it was moved to run on a VAX-11/780. How this was done (emulation mode, recompile) I don't know. I could ask around if anyones interested but I doubt if it's still available. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From spedraja at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 08:31:07 2011 From: spedraja at gmail.com (SPC) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 15:31:07 +0100 Subject: Help to format diskettes for At&t 3b1 or Altos systems in a PC Message-ID: I need and be happy to receive some help to format diskettes for At&t 3b1 or Altos ACS/586/686 systems in a PC. I tried to do it in one 286 PC with one TEAC HD unit with bad results. I've encountered some documents in the Net about the matter but nothing definitive. -- Saludos - Greetings - Freundliche Gr??e - Salutations Sergio ----- "No creas todo lo que ves, ni creas que estas viendolo todo" From bqt at softjar.se Sat Mar 12 13:29:16 2011 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 20:29:16 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 Operating Systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D7BC98C.5060005@softjar.se> On 2011-03-12 19:00, people wrote: [...] All I can add about operating systems related to the original question is that unless I remember wrong, CTS-300 and CTS-500 were based on RSTS/E (basically RSTS/E and hardware bundled together as a complete solution). TRAX-11 was a transaction based system. Mostly targeted at the 11/70, unless I remember wrong. However, I seem to remember that TRAX-11 was also somehow tied up with RSX-11M-PLUS, and also the 11/74, but my memory might be confusing me. MicroPower PASCAL was a standalone system I seem to remember. You built the software on something else, like RSX, and then you booted the created system on a bare machine. CAPS-11 is something really old. About the same timeframe as DOS-11. It was obsoleted around 1974 or something, I would suspect. Very short lifetime of some of the earliest systems for the PDP-11. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From julianskidmore at yahoo.com Sat Mar 12 16:30:17 2011 From: julianskidmore at yahoo.com (Julian Skidmore) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 14:30:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: hardware multiply/divide functionality in CPUs (6809) Message-ID: <336827.92031.qm@web120214.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> > > the bottom n bits. Thus the 6809's MUL instruction produces the correct > > answer to A = -20 * B = -3 as it will store -60 in the B register. > > -20*-3=-60 ? > (((-20) * (-3)) .EQ. (-60)) ? > > if (-20 * -3 == -60) printf("always knew there was something > fundamentally wrong with the universe"); Ooops! If A=-20 and B=-3, then MUL stores 60 in the B register (the full answer being 0xe93c) ;-) If A=-20 and B=3, then MUL stores -60 in B (the full answer being 0x2c4)! MUL does in fact perform 8-bit x 8-bit => 8-bit signed multiplication. However I don't always type correctly! -cheers from julz @P From adr-1 at yandex.ru Sun Mar 13 13:39:25 2011 From: adr-1 at yandex.ru (=?windows-1251?Q?=CF=E0=E2=E5=EB?=) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 21:39:25 +0300 Subject: road trip score: AViiON, Microdata 1600 In-Reply-To: <4CEF69D1.7080700@jwsss.com> References: <4CEF69D1.7080700@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <1761608061.20110313213925@yandex.ru> Hello! You have software for Microdata computers - I was glad to read this. I am adjusting Microdata-compatible computer (Multi-20 - based Plurimat S). The system is looks faultless, but I have not any software for it - even bootstraps. So I'll be very grateful, if you'll send some of your software to me. I am afraid, that I can not write it myself, so downloading is mine last ray of hope. You wrote: > I still have the software and firmware, and have an emulator I have been > working on to run the1621 code. Truly your, Pavel. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 13 20:51:40 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 18:51:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Can someone help me pick out a desktop machine? In-Reply-To: <4D7D71C8.6080007@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <398723.22262.qm@web65510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> if you want the ability to repair it, why aren't you simply asking how to build a desktop??? Yes go w/AMD 1001%. All my notebooks have them nowadays. Get an ASUS mobo and take it from there. I have a brand new tower case and p/s if you're interested. High quality also (in New Jersey). From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Mar 14 11:05:33 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 09:05:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-11 Operating Systems In-Reply-To: <11031114265870_20804A26@btmg.com> References: <11031114265870_20804A26@btmg.com> Message-ID: > working for that bank with the stagecoach when conversion from a home grown > Prime Computer based system was under consideration. I'm currently employed by > a medical group that uses Intersystems Cache (MUMPS based) on VMS for > production applications. > Was there ever a version of Pick released for the PDP-11? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 14 12:07:09 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 09:07:09 -0800 Subject: DECwhatzits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:40 PM -0400 3/13/11, William Donzelli wrote: >OK, found - this is an AN/APM-446 Radar Set Test Station for the >F/A-18, missing a few parts. > >Those are indeed nice shockmounted racks - I am starting to see them >in the dead ships, but I never want to actually have to move one. I'm told it's actually an AN/APM-469 Radar System Test Set. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From dundas at caltech.edu Mon Mar 14 11:14:41 2011 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 09:14:41 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 Operating Systems In-Reply-To: <4D7BC98C.5060005@softjar.se> References: <4D7BC98C.5060005@softjar.se> Message-ID: At 8:29 PM +0100 3/12/11, Johnny Billquist wrote: >On 2011-03-12 19:00, people wrote: > >[...] > >All I can add about operating systems related to the original >question is that unless I remember wrong, CTS-300 and CTS-500 were >based on RSTS/E (basically RSTS/E and hardware bundled together as a >complete solution). CTS-300 is based on RT-11. CTS-500 is based on RSTS/E. John From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Mar 14 11:25:50 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 12:25:50 -0400 Subject: OT: Can someone help me pick out a desktop machine? Message-ID: Phill writes: On 14/03/2011 14:14, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> AMD stuff is available >> but doesn't promise the performance of a Sandy Bridge machine that >> you probably can't buy :). Again, just don't get sucked into the rat >> race. > > I keep hearing this "Intel make CPUs that wipe the floor AMDs" over and > over again, and whilst true this doesn't tell the whole story. I have > personally found, at the times I have felt the need to upgrade that AMD > processors offer the best trade off of price and performance (for me at > least). > > Yes there are faster Intels but they are also *MUCH* more expensive, > sometimes by several times :( Yeah, I tried to couch into my response that I'm comparing the price of Something you can't buy (Sandy Bridge) with something you can buy (AMD). Even when roughly equivalent stuff is available there are still substantial Differences between the two that make a apples-for-apples comparison difficult. Reminds me of the old story: A lady walks into a butcher shop and asks: "How much are the pork chops?" The butcher says: "$1.89 a pound." "$1.89?" The woman asks in shock. "I can get them down the street for $1.69." "So who sent for you?" the butcher asks. "Go down the street." "They don't have any pork chops." "If I didn't have any pork chops, I'd sell 'em to you for $1.49 a pound." From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 14 11:31:37 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 09:31:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Usb typewriter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110314092933.F94858@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 11 Mar 2011, SPC wrote: > I suppose this is well known for all of you, but I didn't hear about it. > http://www.usbtypewriter.com/ Nice. But, . . . It uses the typewriter for input only. As long as it's connecting to all of the mechanical key linkage, why not also have the solenoids needed to print using the typewriter? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Mar 14 11:40:17 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 09:40:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Usb typewriter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Mar 2011, SPC wrote: > I suppose this is well known for all of you, but I didn't hear about it. > > http://www.usbtypewriter.com/ > Now THAT is insanely cool. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 14 11:46:12 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 09:46:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-11 Operating Systems In-Reply-To: <839EEC86-4A53-4722-B8B0-029CF611BBE0@kerberos.davies.net.au> References: <839EEC86-4A53-4722-B8B0-029CF611BBE0@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <20110314093257.T94858@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 12 Mar 2011, Huw Davies wrote: > OK, I have a little information about MONECS (Monash University > Educational Computing System). This was a joint project between Monash > University and Digital Equipment Australia. It consisted of a card > reader - using mark sense or the push out the chad with a paper clip > cards (do these cards have a real name?), "Port-A-Punch Cards" was ONE 1958 IBM name for them. But, "Port-A-Punch" was also used to refer to the little jig for holding the cards while pokiing out the holes with a stylus. CBS even had some success with reading Port-A-Punch cards after they had a stamp glommed onto them and wenth through NYC post offices! They were deliberately identical dimensions to "normal" IBM punched cards, other than using 40 columns (every other one) to maintain a little more physical strength. I remember a trivial homework assignment of writing a program to read the "double-spaced" Port-A-Punch cards, and output "normal" cards using the first 40 columns. 'course it would be just as easy to wire up a plug-board for the card duplicaotr. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From spedraja at ono.com Mon Mar 14 11:48:04 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 17:48:04 +0100 Subject: Usb typewriter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, they sell assembled devices too (no connection with the seller) expensive but *even* very cool: http://www.etsy.com/shop/usbtypewriter?ref=seller_info 2011/3/14 Gene Buckle > On Fri, 11 Mar 2011, SPC wrote: > > I suppose this is well known for all of you, but I didn't hear about it. >> >> http://www.usbtypewriter.com/ >> >> Now THAT is insanely cool. > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! > > Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical > minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which > holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd > by the clean end. > From billdeg at degnanco.com Mon Mar 14 12:12:34 2011 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 13:12:34 -0400 Subject: Help to format diskettes for At&t 3b1 or Altos systems in a PC Message-ID: <62b66375$7606face$4aa7da30$@com> > Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 15:31:07 +0100 > Subject: Help to format diskettes for At&t 3b1 or Altos systems in a > PC > > I need and be happy to receive some help to format diskettes for At&t 3b1 or > Altos ACS/586/686 systems in a PC. I tried to do it in one 286 PC with one > TEAC HD unit with bad results. > > I've encountered some documents in the Net about the matter but nothing > definitive. > AT&T 3B1 - Use the Office program that hopefully will be installed in your system to format a disk. If you log in with the user "install" and blank password, it should put you in the office program. If it's not present, then you need to load the system disks onto the system. Altos - This is a CP/M and or MP/M system depending on your needs; Dave Dunfield's 22disk should work to make a boot disk. If you need more help, contact me directly and I will try to assist, I have both systems. Bill From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 14 12:34:42 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 10:34:42 -0700 Subject: Help to format diskettes for At&t 3b1 or Altos systems in a PC In-Reply-To: <62b66375$7606face$4aa7da30$@com> References: <62b66375$7606face$4aa7da30$@com> Message-ID: <4D7DEF42.20371.851882@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Mar 2011 at 13:12, Bill Degnan wrote: > Altos - This is a CP/M and or MP/M system depending on your needs; > Dave Dunfield's 22disk should work to make a boot disk. Now, them's fighting words! I suppose there are also some who call 22Disk "abandonware" or "freeware" too. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Mon Mar 14 12:56:38 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 11:56:38 -0600 Subject: bitsavers RSS feed updated Message-ID: - Corrected a bug where _'s in the directory name would mess up the directory links. This is most visible on the recent updates to the bits feed with the Walnut Creek CDROM folders. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Mon Mar 14 13:00:20 2011 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 11:00:20 -0700 Subject: OT: Can someone help me pick out a desktop machine? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 18:03:00 -0500 > From: Tom > Subject: Re: OT: Can someone help me pick out a desktop machine? > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <4d7d4ef1.65c2ec0a.6613.4ce3 at mx.google.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed If price is your issue, as it seems to be: 1) You probably want an AMD chip 2) You should be looking at refurbished systems; I have had a lot of good luck with refurbished IBM/Lenovo systems purchased at http://outlet.lenovo.com/. You might also check Costco if u have one locally; they seem to have good deals on HP systems. Unless u are into serious video editing, large compilations, or any other CPU intensive activity, any current CPU should be sufficient for your needs. May I further suggest that what u really care about is the graphics card (not built in so you can upgrade if and when necessary), the monitor (large, LED backlit, fast) and the keyboard (feels good). If you are in this group u should have enuf talent to upgrade the memory and HDD to whatever u need. Tom From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 14:07:51 2011 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 15:07:51 -0400 Subject: OT: Can someone help me pick out a desktop machine? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 2:00 PM, Tom Gardner wrote: >> Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 18:03:00 -0500 >> From: Tom >> Subject: Re: OT: Can someone help me pick out a desktop machine? >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> ? ? ? >> Message-ID: <4d7d4ef1.65c2ec0a.6613.4ce3 at mx.google.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed > > If price is your issue, as it seems to be: > 1) You probably want an AMD chip > 2) You should be looking at refurbished systems; I have had a lot of good > luck with refurbished IBM/Lenovo systems purchased at > http://outlet.lenovo.com/. ?You might also check Costco if u have one > locally; they seem to have good deals on HP systems. > > Unless u are into serious video editing, large compilations, or any other > CPU intensive activity, any current CPU should be sufficient for your needs. > > May I further suggest that what u really care about is the graphics card > (not built in so you can upgrade if and when necessary), the monitor (large, > LED backlit, fast) and the keyboard (feels good). ?If you are in this group > u should have enuf talent to upgrade the memory and HDD to whatever u need. > > Tom Do you plan to do much in the way of emulation? As someone on a retrocomputing mailing list, you may well... If so, getting as much CPU power as possible is a good idea. Also, unless you're either a hardcore gamer or a 3D animation hobbyist you can probably skip out on a dedicated graphics card as the latest integrated chipsets are more than sufficient for 2D tasks (including fairly heavy duty photo editing and the like) and even for playing games (as long as you don't insist on high resolutions or high detail levels) Mike From tiggerlasv at aim.com Mon Mar 14 14:12:45 2011 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 15:12:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: USB typewriter Message-ID: <8CDB092EED01193-1560-36247@webmail-m022.sysops.aol.com> On Friday, March 11th, at 13:04, SPC wrote: > I suppose this is well known for all of you, but I didn't hear about it. > http://www.usbtypewriter.com/ . . . but. . . where is the "Gold" key? ;-) T From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 14:20:10 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 15:20:10 -0400 Subject: USB typewriter In-Reply-To: <8CDB092EED01193-1560-36247@webmail-m022.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CDB092EED01193-1560-36247@webmail-m022.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 3:12 PM, wrote: > On Friday, March 11th, at 13:04, SPC wrote: > >> ?I suppose this is well known for all of you, but I didn't hear about it. > >> ?http://www.usbtypewriter.com/ > > . . . but. . . ?where is the "Gold" key? ? ;-) Or the "meta" key? ;-) -ethan From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 14:28:01 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 14:28:01 -0500 Subject: Usb typewriter In-Reply-To: <20110314092933.F94858@shell.lmi.net> References: <20110314092933.F94858@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4D7E6C41.8090506@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 11 Mar 2011, SPC wrote: >> I suppose this is well known for all of you, but I didn't hear about it. >> http://www.usbtypewriter.com/ > > Nice. > But, . . . > It uses the typewriter for input only. As long as it's connecting to all > of the mechanical key linkage, why not also have the solenoids needed to > print using the typewriter? And anyway, I want an RS-232 version. ;-) From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 14 14:25:26 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 12:25:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Usb typewriter In-Reply-To: <4D7E6C41.8090506@gmail.com> References: <20110314092933.F94858@shell.lmi.net> <4D7E6C41.8090506@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20110314122450.G1535@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 14 Mar 2011, Jules Richardson wrote: > And anyway, I want an RS-232 version. > ;-) Howzbout: 20mA ? From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 14 15:15:05 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 16:15:05 -0400 Subject: Usb typewriter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D7E7749.8020102@neurotica.com> Great stuff! Does anyone remember the solenoid-filled boxes that sat over the keyboard of a Selectric typewriter and turned it into a printer, that were sold via magazine ads and such? This sorta reminds me of those, going in the other direction. Neat! -Dave On 3/14/11 12:48 PM, SPC wrote: > Well, they sell assembled devices too (no connection with the seller) > expensive but *even* very cool: > > http://www.etsy.com/shop/usbtypewriter?ref=seller_info > > 2011/3/14 Gene Buckle > >> On Fri, 11 Mar 2011, SPC wrote: >> >> I suppose this is well known for all of you, but I didn't hear about it. >>> >>> http://www.usbtypewriter.com/ >>> >>> Now THAT is insanely cool. -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Mar 14 15:31:49 2011 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 16:31:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Usb typewriter In-Reply-To: <4D7E7749.8020102@neurotica.com> References: <4D7E7749.8020102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Mar 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > Great stuff! Does anyone remember the solenoid-filled boxes that sat over > the keyboard of a Selectric typewriter and turned it into a printer, that > were sold via magazine ads and such? This sorta reminds me of those, going > in the other direction. Neat! There was such a gadget on Ebay a couple of weeks ago, but I can't find it now. It was missing a couple of plungers from the solenoids. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 14 14:54:25 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 19:54:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Strange Versatec Plotter question In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Mar 13, 11 01:45:52 pm Message-ID: > > At 7:17 PM +0000 3/13/11, Tony Duell wrote: > >On a more genrarl point, why do namy collectors regard old > >printers/plotters/other peripherals as 'junk' while processorts from the > >same vintage are 'interesting'? As I've said before, I'm very much a > >hardware person, and can find interest in all sorts of odd hardware. > > When it comes to plotters I think it's less a case of considering > them junk, and more a case of considering them rather troublesome and > large. :-) There is also the case of some of them using supplies 'Toroublesome and large'... I can think of plenty of classic computers that applies to as well :-) (No flames, please...) > that really should be stored in a Hazmat locker. I still have at > least 3 or 4 old printers out in the garage. I also suspect most > collectors don't put as much value on being able to print from these > systems as you do. Ah no, you misunderstood me. If I seriously wanyt a printout from a classic computer, I am likely tro use a printer somewhat more mdoern than the machine. IF the host classic computer can `print' to an RS232 port, then I'll vcapture the data with something like an HP98LX and transfer it later to this PC [1] for formatting and printing. Of coruse there are machines in my collection that really should be used with the printer/plotter that they were designed to work with, and in that case I do try to restrore and use the 'right' unit. [1] If I ever do get a more modern machine, one thing I would insist on, even more than having full schematicvs, would be an RS232 port and kermit. It can be an RS232 port on the end of a USB converter or whatever, but I have som many devices that use that 'standard' that I would not want to be stuck with a machine that could talk to none of them. Anyway, the main reason I do this is consumables. Printers do use up paper and/or ink (toner, ribbons, inkjet cartridges, sparkjet electrdes, etc), and at least one of those is likely to be hard to obtain for a classic pritner now. No, what I was saying is that I find the old printers and plotters themselves to be interesting in some cases. The motor control circuitry of an HP7245 -- the accumulator registers, adders, sin/cos look-up table ROMs, DACs, analogue filtering, etc -- interests me. The timing stat machine in the Versatec V80 intersts me. The discrte-transisotr interface, DACs and servo amplifers in an HP9125 pkoiter interest me. The state machine controller and shift registers to store a line of characters in the HP9866 interest me. Perhaps not as much as a similar-technology processor/computer system, but I would find repaairing/investigating one of the aforementioned hard copy devices to be a lot more interesting than doing the same to, say, a typicel 1980s home computer. It's the same with other peripehrals too. I find some of the older modems, now totally useless for data communications (even I want something a little faster than 300 bits per second, and I don't have a 4-wire leased line :-)), to be interesting in design. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 14 15:34:55 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 16:34:55 -0400 Subject: Usb typewriter In-Reply-To: References: <4D7E7749.8020102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D7E7BEF.1050100@neurotica.com> On 3/14/11 4:31 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: >> Great stuff! Does anyone remember the solenoid-filled boxes that sat >> over the keyboard of a Selectric typewriter and turned it into a >> printer, that were sold via magazine ads and such? This sorta reminds >> me of those, going in the other direction. Neat! > > There was such a gadget on Ebay a couple of weeks ago, but I can't find > it now. It was missing a couple of plungers from the solenoids. A USB front-end to one of those would be neat. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 14 15:33:00 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 20:33:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Usb typewriter In-Reply-To: <4D7E6C41.8090506@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Mar 14, 11 02:28:01 pm Message-ID: > > It uses the typewriter for input only. As long as it's connecting to all > > of the mechanical key linkage, why not also have the solenoids needed to > > print using the typewriter? > > And anyway, I want an RS-232 version. I want it 7 or 8 bit parallel and idrecitonal. Wait a seonmd, isn't that a Friden Flexowriter? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 14 15:33:31 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 20:33:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Usb typewriter In-Reply-To: <20110314122450.G1535@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Mar 14, 11 12:25:26 pm Message-ID: > > On Mon, 14 Mar 2011, Jules Richardson wrote: > > And anyway, I want an RS-232 version. > > ;-) > > Howzbout: 20mA ? No, 60mA, please. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 14 16:03:54 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 14:03:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Usb typewriter In-Reply-To: References: <4D7E7749.8020102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110314133441.U4504@shell.lmi.net> > On Mon, 14 Mar 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Great stuff! Does anyone remember the solenoid-filled boxes that sat over > > the keyboard of a Selectric typewriter and turned it into a printer, that > > were sold via magazine ads and such? This sorta reminds me of those, going > > in the other direction. Neat! On Mon, 14 Mar 2011, Mike Loewen wrote: > There was such a gadget on Ebay a couple of weeks ago, but I can't find > it now. It was missing a couple of plungers from the solenoids. Rochester Dynatyper KGS-80 I can't remember which one was which - one was "Centronics parallel" with a 34 pin card edge connector on ribbon cable for TRS-80 but worked just fine with a "blue ribbon" connector crimped on. The other had a two edged circuit board for expansion bus of TRS-80 AND Apple][. Both could work with any "normal" keyboard that didn't require manually moving the platen or mechanism for Carriage return, including typewriters, computers, and even a Merganthaler from Hell. It even worked to beat on the keys when a Model 3 keyboard wasn't working until each key had been forcibly pressed a few dozen times. Escon box that sat UNDER a Selectric For a TRULY manual typewriter, I remember one being demo'd at West Coast Computer Faire that had fishing line pulling on the carriage return lever! If you were to combine with one of them, then you would have a retro USB terminal, that is even slower and cruder than an I/O Selectric. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 16:14:51 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 17:14:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: <4D7A98D7.1010007@bitsavers.org> References: from "Richard" at Mar 10, 11 04:08:22 pm <4D7A98D7.1010007@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Mar 2011, Al Kossow wrote: > On 3/11/11 12:48 PM, Richard wrote: > >> And that was Al's point -- heads touching the medium do bad things in >> the context of archival processes. > > I guess I was being too clever with that post. What I trying to express > was my dislike of magnetic tape and floppies. Both require the media > to be in contact with the head to work. Magnetic and optical rigid disks > do not. I need to take another close look at the specs, but I was under the impression that MTBF for modern servo-driven tape formats far exceeded that of even the best hard disks. Granted RAID changes the equation, and I'm not enough of a statistician to factor that in. -- From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Mar 14 16:27:34 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 21:27:34 +0000 Subject: Usb typewriter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D7E8846.2060606@dunnington.plus.com> On 14/03/2011 16:48, SPC wrote: > Well, they sell assembled devices too (no connection with the seller) > expensive but *even* very cool: > > http://www.etsy.com/shop/usbtypewriter?ref=seller_info The very first picture on that page is almost the same as the Olympia typewriter I used to have and love. I've often wished I'd not got rid of it, and you just reminded me ;-) (mine had more keys than that, IIRC) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 16:53:38 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 17:53:38 -0400 Subject: Usb typewriter In-Reply-To: <4D7E7749.8020102@neurotica.com> References: <4D7E7749.8020102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 4:15 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > ?Great stuff! ?Does anyone remember the solenoid-filled boxes that sat over > the keyboard of a Selectric typewriter and turned it into a printer, that > were sold via magazine ads and such? ?This sorta reminds me of those, going > in the other direction. ?Neat! I remember them, and since my mother was a professional typist (court transcripts and such), we *had* more than one Selectric at home. Unfortunately, we (I) didn't have the money as a kid to buy the solenoid boards (and as it turns out never did buy even a used printer until I was in college), but my mother was always interested in the approach. It didn't help that we had a PET, and at the time, there was an extra expense to pick up an IEEE-488->Centronics board/box (there were several available, ISTR). Later, when I _did_ have a tank of a dot matrix printer (wide carriage with two heads, one for columns 1-80, one for 81-132), I rigged up a CBM User Port-to-Centronics cable (which I was looking at mere days ago) and wrote my own Centronics printer driver and tapped it into the IEEE routine vectors on a C-64. The cable would work on a PET, but not the software as designed (the big difference being that the system call vectors are in ROM on a PET and bump through RAM on a C-64, simplifying the task of hacking in your own routines to replace ones in ROM). If I had a need, with what I know now, I'm sure I could hack the code I wrote to allow a PET to drive a parallel printer with a special set of routines called explicitly to do a screen dump or emit a string, but to avail myself of the convenient OPEN/PRINT#/CLOSE method that works with true IEEE devices, custom ROMs would be required. -ethan From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Mar 14 17:43:44 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 15:43:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: USB typewriter In-Reply-To: References: <8CDB092EED01193-1560-36247@webmail-m022.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Mar 2011, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 3:12 PM, wrote: >> On Friday, March 11th, at 13:04, SPC wrote: >> >>> ?I suppose this is well known for all of you, but I didn't hear about it. >> >>> ?http://www.usbtypewriter.com/ >> >> . . . but. . . ?where is the "Gold" key? ? ;-) > > Or the "meta" key? ;-) Or more practically, how do you type the number "1"? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 14 17:53:36 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 15:53:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: USB typewriter In-Reply-To: References: <8CDB092EED01193-1560-36247@webmail-m022.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <20110314154745.S4504@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 14 Mar 2011, David Griffith wrote: > Or more practically, how do you type the number "1"? On typewriters of that vintage, numeral '1' v lower case 'L' were difficult to tell apart. Some also combined numeral '0' and letter 'O'. There is mention of a "special toggle key", that presumably does a shift to include square and curly brackets, etc. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Mar 14 19:12:18 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 20:12:18 -0400 Subject: SUN Ultra 5 NVRAM References: <41FE74455DA3430B84971BF0B828A2F7@dell8300><20110310204410.7f19dced.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <1928716C4D944F18BC69C443EF635E59@dell8300> Ok, I hacked the old chip and installed a 3V CR2032 coin type battery on top. My chip was a M48T59-70PCI by ST (which is what should have been there for a SS5) There was a sticker on the top (system id???) with 80 f4 61 b0 on it. Assuming I didn't screw the chip up and installed it correctly, how do I reprogram it? What I seen on the net is too generic. Where do I find a serial number or network ID on the physical unit? ----- Original Message ----- From: "joe lobocki" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 7:21 PM Subject: Re: SUN Ultra 5 NVRAM > If you don't mind doing a bit of physical hacking, you could try this (has > pics) > > http://www.vdheijden-messerli.net/sgistuff/photos/2009.11.24-sun-nvram/ > From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Mon Mar 14 22:18:49 2011 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 20:18:49 -0700 Subject: Usb typewriter (RS-232) Message-ID: <7CFFBDC3507946538B46FF53A17978C0@downstairs2> Someone was asking for a RS-232 typewriter. I had one in 1978. I recently found the negatives for photos of my SWTPC 6800 computer complete with an IBM 2741 style Selectric printing terminal. It was used for letter quality printing but it did have two way communication with my computer. I had to write I/O drivers that converted ASCII to IBM Correspondence Code. I could also use it over a 134.5 baud modem connection to a PDP11/70 timeshare system. I uploaded a picture to the Wikipedia Commons. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Michael_Holley_Computer_1978_NWCN.jpg Here is a write up I did for the Northwest Computer News in July 1978. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Northwest_Computer_News_July_1978.jpg Michael Holley From evan at snarc.net Mon Mar 14 22:24:51 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 23:24:51 -0400 Subject: Usb typewriter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D7EDC03.3080600@snarc.net> > I suppose this is well known for all of you, but I didn't hear about it. > > http://www.usbtypewriter.com I emailed Jack Z. (the inventor) and invited him to VCF East; he lives nearby. Have not heard back yet. Will post here if/when there is an announcement. From evan at snarc.net Mon Mar 14 22:42:01 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 23:42:01 -0400 Subject: Usb typewriter In-Reply-To: <4D7EDC03.3080600@snarc.net> References: <4D7EDC03.3080600@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4D7EE009.8020804@snarc.net> > >> I suppose this is well known for all of you, but I didn't hear about it. >> >> http://www.usbtypewriter.com > > I emailed Jack Z. (the inventor) and invited him to VCF East; he lives > nearby. Have not heard back yet. Will post here if/when there is an > announcement. Heard from him. Jack has a prior commitment during VCF East weekend, but he's contributing a conversion kit as a prize! http://www.etsy.com/listing/62642931/diy-usb-typewriter-conversion-kit From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Mar 15 00:30:06 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 22:30:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: USB typewriter In-Reply-To: <20110314154745.S4504@shell.lmi.net> References: <8CDB092EED01193-1560-36247@webmail-m022.sysops.aol.com> <20110314154745.S4504@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Mar 2011, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 14 Mar 2011, David Griffith wrote: >> Or more practically, how do you type the number "1"? > > On typewriters of that vintage, numeral '1' v lower case 'L' were > difficult to tell apart. Some also combined numeral '0' and letter 'O'. > > There is mention of a "special toggle key", that presumably does a shift > to include square and curly brackets, etc. Presumably that handles those keys omitted because they look close enough to something else. '!' I imagine would be hard to figure out on this thing. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 18:52:50 2011 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 19:52:50 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 Operating Systems Message-ID: > From:?Johnny Billquist > All I can add about operating systems related to the original question is that unless I remember wrong, CTS-300 and CTS-500 were based on RSTS/E (basically RSTS/E and hardware bundled together as a complete solution). I think that CTS-300 ran on RT-11, and CTS-500 ran on RSTS/E. You could not compile a Dibol program on CTS-300 without shutting down the main application. On CTS-500 it was easy to compile and debug online. -- Michael Thompson From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 18:58:30 2011 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 19:58:30 -0400 Subject: Digital archiving tools Message-ID: > From:?Joachim Thiemann > By curious coincidence, one of my labmates just asked me for some > original data from my Master's thesis, and luckily I have that data > backed up on CD-R - from 1999 (Maxell gold-coloured CD-R74, if that > makes a difference). ?Tar.gz files, and still reads fine 12 years > later on a modern machine (Mac mini) without special hardware or > software. My wife's Master's thesis is on RX01 floppies made with WPS-8. Someday I will get the files converted to something more modern. -- Michael Thompson From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Mar 15 04:48:41 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 10:48:41 +0100 (CET) Subject: Usb typewriter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Mar 2011, SPC wrote: > http://www.usbtypewriter.com/ Seems that this guy is doing some copyright infringement in his video; I only get the message (translated into English) "This video contains contents from UMG. It is not available in your country"... Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Mar 15 04:52:09 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 10:52:09 +0100 (CET) Subject: USB typewriter In-Reply-To: <20110314154745.S4504@shell.lmi.net> References: <8CDB092EED01193-1560-36247@webmail-m022.sysops.aol.com> <20110314154745.S4504@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Mar 2011, Fred Cisin wrote: > On typewriters of that vintage, numeral '1' v lower case 'L' were > difficult to tell apart. Some also combined numeral '0' and letter 'O'. That's why there's no numeral '1' on the Flexowriter for the LGP-30. Christian From spedraja at ono.com Tue Mar 15 04:56:13 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 10:56:13 +0100 Subject: Help to format diskettes for At&t 3b1 or Altos systems in a PC In-Reply-To: <62b66375$7606face$4aa7da30$@com> References: <62b66375$7606face$4aa7da30$@com> Message-ID: Thank you very much, Bill. I'll do it. Sergio 2011/3/14 Bill Degnan > > Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 15:31:07 +0100 > > Subject: Help to format diskettes for At&t 3b1 or Altos systems in a > > PC > > > > I need and be happy to receive some help to format diskettes for At&t 3b1 > or > > Altos ACS/586/686 systems in a PC. I tried to do it in one 286 PC with > one > > TEAC HD unit with bad results. > > > > I've encountered some documents in the Net about the matter but nothing > > definitive. > > > > AT&T 3B1 - Use the Office program that hopefully will be installed in your > system to format a disk. If you log in with the user "install" and blank > password, it should put you in the office program. If it's not present, > then you need to load the system disks onto the system. > > Altos - This is a CP/M and or MP/M system depending on your needs; Dave > Dunfield's 22disk should work to make a boot disk. > > If you need more help, contact me directly and I will try to assist, I have > both systems. > > Bill > > From alhartman at yahoo.com Tue Mar 15 06:22:53 2011 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 04:22:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Can someone help me pick out a desktop machine? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <665408.45418.qm@web161911.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> A lot of you seem to be missing that he has a store credit with a particular store. He doesn't have the ability to buy a refurbed Leonovo or to build a system from scratch. He has to choose from within the store's available inventory. So, none of the suggestions that don't take into account what the store has in stock, isn't all that helpful it seems to me. Al From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Mar 15 08:05:45 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 08:05:45 -0500 Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D7F6429.60306@compsys.to> >Michael Thompson wrote: >>From: Joachim Thiemann >>By curious coincidence, one of my labmates just asked me for some >>original data from my Master's thesis, and luckily I have that data >>backed up on CD-R - from 1999 (Maxell gold-coloured CD-R74, if that >>makes a difference). Tar.gz files, and still reads fine 12 years >>later on a modern machine (Mac mini) without special hardware or >>software. >> >My wife's Master's thesis is on RX01 floppies made with WPS-8. >Someday I will get the files converted to something more modern. > If this goal is a priority (even if it is to be completed far in the future), I suggest that you at least copy the RX01 images to a current file and operating system. Then, at your leisure, you will be able to use one of the PDP-11 emulators to extract the thesis text. Otherwise, the availability of 8" floppy drives may become the bottleneck. In addition, if WPS-8 ran on only certain hardware and operating system, it would be helpful to make a copy of both WPS-8 and the operating system. If the operating system was for a PDP-11, they will be able to run under one of the popular hobby emulators (SIMH or Ersatz-11) for probably decades into the future. Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Mar 15 08:06:33 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 08:06:33 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 Operating Systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D7F6459.8020101@compsys.to> >Michael Thompson wrote: >>From: Johnny Billquist >>All I can add about operating systems related to the original question is that unless I remember wrong, CTS-300 and CTS-500 were based on RSTS/E (basically RSTS/E and hardware bundled together as a complete solution). >> >> >I think that CTS-300 ran on RT-11, and CTS-500 ran on RSTS/E. You >could not compile a Dibol program on CTS-300 without shutting down the >main application. On CTS-500 it was easy to compile and debug online. > One aspect you mention is being able to debug a program. Under RSTS/E, I have attempted to debug a program (MACRO-11 to be specific) which also runs under RT-11. Is there any facility to debug under RSTS/E without explicitly having to add ODT to the program? Starting with V05.04 of RT-11, a (pseudo) device driver called SD: is available which allows a user to debug a program WITHOUT the inclusion of ODT into the code space of the program. In particular, even a virtual job under the RT11XM monitor can be debugged without adding any extra debug code and only break points need to be set. Does RSTS/E have any support for debugging which is similar? I am using V10.1 of RSTS/E and have managed to add ODT to an existing MACRO executable file, but would prefer an RT-11 type of debug support that I just mentioned. If my memory is correct, I agree that CTS-300 was a superset of RT-11 with all the limitations that RT-11 would impose, including a lack of a scheduler with the ability to provide equal priority to a number of jobs, let alone initiate any jobs or programs except via an explicit command from the lowest priority (background) job. As a consequence, your statement that it would not be possible to "compile a Dibol program on CTS-300 without shutting down the main application" would apply to every RT-11 main application which ran as the background job - which would probably be 99% of all applications that run under RT-11. In fact, even the MACRO-11 assembler which runs under RT-11 lacks the additional code (at least the DEC version does - I have since corrected that problem - well almost since one really confusing bug still exists) to run as a system job whenever a cross-reference table is requested. As a result, the DEC version of MACRO-11 can be run only as a background job and if the main application must also include the background job, then MACRO-11 also can't assemble any programs if the main application is running. My point is that RT-11 and RSTS/E are vastly different operating systems, each with its own area of advantages and disadvantages. In some applications, RT-11 is essential. In others, only RSTS/E is satisfactory. TSX-Plus combined the advantages of both of these operating systems, but was not always the perfect solution. Jerome Fine From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Mar 15 12:52:08 2011 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 12:52:08 -0500 Subject: Usb typewriter References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- > Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 14:28:01 -0500 > From: Jules Richardson > Subject: Re: Usb typewriter > > Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Fri, 11 Mar 2011, SPC wrote: >>> I suppose this is well known for all of you, but I didn't hear about it. >>> http://www.usbtypewriter.com/ >> >> Nice. >> But, . . . >> It uses the typewriter for input only. As long as it's connecting to all >> of the mechanical key linkage, why not also have the solenoids needed to >> print using the typewriter? > > And anyway, I want an RS-232 version. > > ;-) ------ Reply: ----- Then I have a nice Olivetti typewriter with RO RS-232 interface for you! Also lots of the interface boards if you want to make your own, and even a book about interfacing Selectrics if you prefer that route... ;-) Yeah, I saw that USB manual TW conversion a year or so ago when it was just a Make blog/video; looks like he's turned it into a nice little business at those prices ;-) m From fmc at reanimators.org Tue Mar 15 16:18:52 2011 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 14:18:52 -0700 Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: (Michael Kerpan's message of "Thu\, 10 Mar 2011 14\:19\:26 -0500") References: <4D72C355.7020608@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <201103152118.p2FLIrXb079064@lots.reanimators.org> Michael Kerpan wrote: > On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 9:56 AM, SPC wrote: >> HP-UX v5 would be a *VERY* cool find :-) > > It certainly would be, but given that it's pretty close to a vanilla > System V port, I'm not sure if permission to actually distribute it > could ever be obtained. BWAHAHAHA! HP-UX v5 is a rewrite of the System V kernel in HP's proprietary MODCAL. It runs atop another lower-level OS called SUN OS. It's pretty amazing in the sense that you can do that to Unix and it still looks and works like Unix. Well, mostly. There are some funny things about '.' and '..' on HP-UX v5. -Frank McConnell From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Tue Mar 15 22:03:06 2011 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 23:03:06 -0400 Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: <201103152118.p2FLIrXb079064@lots.reanimators.org> References: <4D72C355.7020608@bitsavers.org> <201103152118.p2FLIrXb079064@lots.reanimators.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 5:18 PM, Frank McConnell wrote: > BWAHAHAHA! > > HP-UX v5 is a rewrite of the System V kernel in HP's proprietary > MODCAL. ?It runs atop another lower-level OS called SUN OS. > It's pretty amazing in the sense that you can do that to Unix and > it still looks and works like Unix. ?Well, mostly. ?There are > some funny things about '.' and '..' on HP-UX v5. > > -Frank McConnell Interesting. A lot of the stuff I've seen seems to indicate that the SUNOS and Modcal stuff was for the FOCUS-based 500 series releases, while the 68K-based releases for the Integral and the 200 series were a bit more generic. If the 68K stuff also used the proprietary HP stuff, that just makes it more interesting. Still the presence of Sys V userland components still mean that you'd need a Unix license to use the thing... Mike From fmc at reanimators.org Tue Mar 15 23:51:52 2011 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 21:51:52 -0700 Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: (Michael Kerpan's message of "Tue\, 15 Mar 2011 23\:03\:06 -0400") References: <4D72C355.7020608@bitsavers.org> <201103152118.p2FLIrXb079064@lots.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <201103160451.p2G4pqnW088837@lots.reanimators.org> Michael Kerpan wrote: > On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 5:18 PM, Frank McConnell wrote: >> BWAHAHAHA! >> >> HP-UX v5 is a rewrite of the System V kernel in HP's proprietary >> MODCAL. ?It runs atop another lower-level OS called SUN OS. >> It's pretty amazing in the sense that you can do that to Unix and >> it still looks and works like Unix. ?Well, mostly. ?There are >> some funny things about '.' and '..' on HP-UX v5. > > Interesting. A lot of the stuff I've seen seems to indicate that the > SUNOS and Modcal stuff was for the FOCUS-based 500 series releases, > while the 68K-based releases for the Integral and the 200 series were > a bit more generic. If the 68K stuff also used the proprietary HP > stuff, that just makes it more interesting. Still the presence of Sys > V userland components still mean that you'd need a Unix license to use > the thing... Was there an HP-UX "version 5" for anything other than the s500? By the time I came to it, s300 and s800 were the only architectures getting new development, with the s300 using 6.x version numbers and s800 using 1.x. I never worked with s200, and I think the MODCAL kernel was exclusive to s500. And yes, the s500 userland was largely a System V userland (with some BSD parts) built from C sources. -Frank McConnell From evan at snarc.net Wed Mar 16 00:27:08 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 05:27:08 +0000 Subject: Second hands-on workshop added for VCF East Message-ID: <558629213-1300253230-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-91709044-@bda2007.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> To everyone, re: VCF East 7.0 hands-on workshops: Dan Roganti's "Build Your Own Transistor-Logic" workshop is rescheduled to Saturday from 10am-12pm. It was originally Sunday in the same time slot. Replacing it on Sunday will be "Teletype 101" by Bill Degnan. Bill will teach the basics of evaluating, cleaning, repairing, and connecting the popular Teletype Model '33 series. At the end of the workshop, one randomly selected attendee will win a tested and working '33. The other attendees will have an opportunity to buy an as-is, untested unit for $75 pending availability. Both workshops cost $40 and are limited to 10 students. (Eight spots remain for Dan's). Registration is online at http://www.vintage.org/2011/east/workshop.php From jws at jwsss.com Wed Mar 16 10:35:42 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 08:35:42 -0700 Subject: Ebay fee change as of 4/1 Message-ID: <4D80D8CE.8040907@jwsss.com> I read an AP article that says that Ebay will start charging as the Ebay fee charge, not 10% of the selling fee or $50, whichever is less, but rather 10% plus the shipping charges. I would encourage everyone here who is selling a 300# printer for $50 to take a close look at whether to sell anything on ebay anymore if this is accurate. I sort of sympathize with Ebay in trying to clamp down on the crop of people who now have low prices (buy it for a buck) but $30 shipping costs. However this move pretty much makes me want to pull everything I have, as there will be a negative outflow on my account by my calculation for my Wyse terminals ($40) etc. by the time I sell them. I'm not interested in paying people to take my stuff. Jim From dgahling at hotmail.com Wed Mar 16 10:52:49 2011 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 11:52:49 -0400 Subject: Ebay fee change as of 4/1 In-Reply-To: <4D80D8CE.8040907@jwsss.com> References: <4D80D8CE.8040907@jwsss.com> Message-ID: So you have to add these costs to the cost of the item.Which may make the cost of the items less attractive. There's always craigslist or kijiji, etc This is why I don't sell on fleabay any more > Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 08:35:42 -0700 > From: jws at jwsss.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Ebay fee change as of 4/1 > > I read an AP article that says that Ebay will start charging as the Ebay > fee charge, not 10% of the selling fee or $50, whichever is less, but > rather 10% plus the shipping charges. > > I would encourage everyone here who is selling a 300# printer for $50 to > take a close look at whether to sell anything on ebay anymore if this is > accurate. > > I sort of sympathize with Ebay in trying to clamp down on the crop of > people who now have low prices (buy it for a buck) but $30 shipping costs. > > However this move pretty much makes me want to pull everything I have, > as there will be a negative outflow on my account by my calculation for > my Wyse terminals ($40) etc. by the time I sell them. I'm not > interested in paying people to take my stuff. > > Jim From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 16 11:34:13 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 09:34:13 -0700 Subject: Ebay fee change as of 4/1 In-Reply-To: References: <4D80D8CE.8040907@jwsss.com>, Message-ID: <4D808415.2093.4EDD16@cclist.sydex.com> It fits with what others have said about eBay wanting to become essentially more of a retail storefront with minor auction content, rather than an online auction house. i.e. more of a Buy.com setup. Don't forget Erik's Vintage Computer Marketplace. Free. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 16 11:42:58 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 10:42:58 -0600 Subject: Ebay fee change as of 4/1 In-Reply-To: <4D808415.2093.4EDD16@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D80D8CE.8040907@jwsss.com>, <4D808415.2093.4EDD16@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4D808415.2093.4EDD16 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > Don't forget Erik's Vintage Computer Marketplace. Free. Unfortunately the reason I don't use any of these other sites instead of ebay is that there isn't any hookup to a payment mechanism. Concluding business always requires a bunch of email back and forth and it just doesn't work very well. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 16 11:52:15 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 09:52:15 -0700 Subject: Ebay fee change as of 4/1 In-Reply-To: References: <4D80D8CE.8040907@jwsss.com>, <4D808415.2093.4EDD16@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4D80884F.2407.5F5E8D@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Mar 2011 at 10:42, Richard wrote: > Unfortunately the reason I don't use any of these other sites instead > of ebay is that there isn't any hookup to a payment mechanism. > Concluding business always requires a bunch of email back and forth > and it just doesn't work very well. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Paypal doesn't work? --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Mar 16 12:00:46 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:00:46 -0400 Subject: Ebay fee change as of 4/1 In-Reply-To: <4D80D8CE.8040907@jwsss.com> References: <4D80D8CE.8040907@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Fact check: > I read an AP article that says that Ebay will start charging as the Ebay fee > charge, not 10% of the selling fee or $50, whichever is less, but rather 10% > plus the shipping charges. Officially, the 9 percent fee will remain at 9 percent - no raise. But for non-store owners, yes, the S&H costs are now part of the commission. Basically they want to make everyone a store, with the basic membership of $15.95. For higher volume sellers like myself, it makes sense to open a store, if only to sell buckets of dirt, in order to be exempt from the S&H commission, as well as the lower 7.5/4 percent structured commission in general. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 16 12:03:53 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:03:53 -0400 Subject: Ebay fee change as of 4/1 In-Reply-To: <4D808415.2093.4EDD16@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D80D8CE.8040907@jwsss.com>, <4D808415.2093.4EDD16@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D80ED79.4060705@neurotica.com> On 3/16/11 12:34 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > It fits with what others have said about eBay wanting to become > essentially more of a retail storefront with minor auction content, > rather than an online auction house. i.e. more of a Buy.com setup. Yeah, like the world really needs ANOTHER one of those, and like we really need to see eBay duke it out with Amazon. This reminds me of when most of the computer manufacturers stopped making good stuff and jumped onto the PC bandwagon because it was "the next big thing". They started making PCs, ditched their real computers, and promptly died. The world really didn't need yet another manufacturer of bottom-end hardware. eBay fills a market need that nobody else has been able to touch. Sure, there are some vertical-market places (the Vintage Computer Marketplace, etc), but the few other "general audience" auction houses that actually got off the ground never made even the slightest dent in the market. That's why eBay makes so damn much money. I can only hope their shareholders recognize the mistake this time, before it actually happens. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 16 12:04:46 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:04:46 -0400 Subject: Ebay fee change as of 4/1 In-Reply-To: References: <4D80D8CE.8040907@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4D80EDAE.8050805@neurotica.com> On 3/16/11 1:00 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Officially, the 9 percent fee will remain at 9 percent - no raise. But > for non-store owners, yes, the S&H costs are now part of the > commission. Basically they want to make everyone a store, with the > basic membership of $15.95. For higher volume sellers like myself, it > makes sense to open a store, if only to sell buckets of dirt, in order > to be exempt from the S&H commission, as well as the lower 7.5/4 > percent structured commission in general. You're a high-volume seller? Wow, I didn't know that. What's your ID? I'll check out your listings. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From fsmith at ladylinux.com Wed Mar 16 12:34:51 2011 From: fsmith at ladylinux.com (Fran Smith) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:34:51 -0400 Subject: Ok Anything With Shatner Does Has To Be Good Right ??? Message-ID: <4D80F4BB.5080501@ladylinux.com> What a time capsule. http://www.engadget.com/2011/03/15/william-shatner-explains-what-microprocessors-are-and-do-from/ Interesting actually. And we dressed like that back then ?? Frannie From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Wed Mar 16 13:08:22 2011 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 14:08:22 -0400 Subject: HP 9000 series 200 emulator In-Reply-To: <201103160451.p2G4pqnW088837@lots.reanimators.org> References: <4D72C355.7020608@bitsavers.org> <201103152118.p2FLIrXb079064@lots.reanimators.org> <201103160451.p2G4pqnW088837@lots.reanimators.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 12:51 AM, Frank McConnell wrote: > Was there an HP-UX "version 5" for anything other than the s500? > By the time I came to it, s300 and s800 were the only architectures > getting new development, with the s300 using 6.x version numbers > and s800 using 1.x. ?I never worked with s200, and I think the MODCAL > kernel was exclusive to s500. > > And yes, the s500 userland was largely a System V userland (with some > BSD parts) built from C sources. > > -Frank McConnell Indeed there was an HP-UX 5.0 for the Series 200/300/Integral (it was actually the last version to run on the 200 and the Integral). Given that this thread is about the 200 series, that's the version we were referring to. Mike From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Mar 16 13:27:11 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 14:27:11 -0400 Subject: Ebay fee change as of 4/1 In-Reply-To: <4D80D8CE.8040907@jwsss.com> References: <4D80D8CE.8040907@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4D8100FF.4020207@atarimuseum.com> Remember the good old days when an ebay auction cost .25 cents flat.... jim s wrote: > I read an AP article that says that Ebay will start charging as the > Ebay fee charge, not 10% of the selling fee or $50, whichever is less, > but rather 10% plus the shipping charges. > > I would encourage everyone here who is selling a 300# printer for $50 > to take a close look at whether to sell anything on ebay anymore if > this is accurate. > > I sort of sympathize with Ebay in trying to clamp down on the crop of > people who now have low prices (buy it for a buck) but $30 shipping > costs. > > However this move pretty much makes me want to pull everything I have, > as there will be a negative outflow on my account by my calculation > for my Wyse terminals ($40) etc. by the time I sell them. I'm not > interested in paying people to take my stuff. > > Jim > From halarewich at gmail.com Wed Mar 16 13:51:18 2011 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 11:51:18 -0700 Subject: Ebay fee change as of 4/1 In-Reply-To: <4D8100FF.4020207@atarimuseum.com> References: <4D80D8CE.8040907@jwsss.com> <4D8100FF.4020207@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: >From an article at http://www.internetretailer.com/2011/03/16/ebay-cuts-seller-feesor-does-it "The updated final value fee structure takes effect for non?store sellers April 19, and for merchants that operate eBay stores and fixed-price sellers July 6." On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 11:27 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Remember the good old days when an ebay auction cost .25 cents flat.... > > > > > > jim s wrote: > >> I read an AP article that says that Ebay will start charging as the Ebay >> fee charge, not 10% of the selling fee or $50, whichever is less, but rather >> 10% plus the shipping charges. >> >> I would encourage everyone here who is selling a 300# printer for $50 to >> take a close look at whether to sell anything on ebay anymore if this is >> accurate. >> >> I sort of sympathize with Ebay in trying to clamp down on the crop of >> people who now have low prices (buy it for a buck) but $30 shipping costs. >> >> However this move pretty much makes me want to pull everything I have, as >> there will be a negative outflow on my account by my calculation for my Wyse >> terminals ($40) etc. by the time I sell them. I'm not interested in paying >> people to take my stuff. >> >> Jim >> >> From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 16 14:18:46 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:18:46 -0600 Subject: Ebay fee change as of 4/1 In-Reply-To: <4D80884F.2407.5F5E8D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D80D8CE.8040907@jwsss.com>, <4D808415.2093.4EDD16@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D80884F.2407.5F5E8D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4D80884F.2407.5F5E8D at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 16 Mar 2011 at 10:42, Richard wrote: > > > Unfortunately the reason I don't use any of these other sites instead > > of ebay is that there isn't any hookup to a payment mechanism. > > Concluding business always requires a bunch of email back and forth > > and it just doesn't work very well. > > Paypal doesn't work? One of the reasons that people use those other sites is because they *won't* take paypal. I've had that happen on more than one occasion. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From spedraja at ono.com Wed Mar 16 14:22:06 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 20:22:06 +0100 Subject: Ok Anything With Shatner Does Has To Be Good Right ??? In-Reply-To: <4D80F4BB.5080501@ladylinux.com> References: <4D80F4BB.5080501@ladylinux.com> Message-ID: 2011/3/16 Fran Smith > What a time capsule. > > > http://www.engadget.com/2011/03/15/william-shatner-explains-what-microprocessors-are-and-do-from/ > > Certainly. > Interesting actually. And we dressed like that back then ?? > > Absolutely. Even worst. Sergio From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 16 15:16:13 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:16:13 -0700 Subject: Ok Anything With Shatner Does Has To Be Good Right ??? In-Reply-To: References: <4D80F4BB.5080501@ladylinux.com>, Message-ID: <4D80B81D.6464.11A1A91@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Mar 2011 at 20:22, SPC wrote: > Absolutely. Even worst. Men's fashion was beginning to recover its lost mind from the 1970s. You missed the leisure suits, Nehru jackets with love-beads, bellbottom pants, tie-dye shirts... We had a division GM who wore a light blue jumpsuit to work... --Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Mar 16 15:20:22 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:20:22 -0700 Subject: Ok Anything With Shatner Does Has To Be Good Right ??? In-Reply-To: <4D80B81D.6464.11A1A91@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D80F4BB.5080501@ladylinux.com>, <4D80B81D.6464.11A1A91@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 1:16 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Ok Anything With Shatner Does Has To Be Good Right ??? > > On 16 Mar 2011 at 20:22, SPC wrote: > > > Absolutely. Even worst. > > Men's fashion was beginning to recover its lost mind from the 1970s. > You missed the leisure suits, Nehru jackets with love-beads, > bellbottom pants, tie-dye shirts... > And what's wrong with tie-dye? -- an old Deadhead From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 16 15:29:39 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:29:39 -0700 Subject: Ok Anything With Shatner Does Has To Be Good Right ??? In-Reply-To: References: <4D80F4BB.5080501@ladylinux.com>, <4D80B81D.6464.11A1A91@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4D80BB43.14980.1266626@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Mar 2011 at 13:20, Ian King wrote: > And what's wrong with tie-dye? -- an old Deadhead Nothing--I still see too much of it around town, though. The Saturday Market is still chock full of it. But my town's kind of retro that way... --Chuck From spedraja at ono.com Wed Mar 16 15:59:05 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 21:59:05 +0100 Subject: Ok Anything With Shatner Does Has To Be Good Right ??? In-Reply-To: <4D80B81D.6464.11A1A91@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D80F4BB.5080501@ladylinux.com> <4D80B81D.6464.11A1A91@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: 2011/3/16 Chuck Guzis > > Men's fashion was beginning to recover its lost mind from the 1970s. > You missed the leisure suits, Nehru jackets with love-beads, > bellbottom pants, tie-dye shirts... > > We had a division GM who wore a light blue jumpsuit to work... > > I shall never forget the shirt collars of Rock Hudson and company in "McMillan and Wife". Sergio From spedraja at ono.com Wed Mar 16 16:07:46 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 22:07:46 +0100 Subject: Ok Anything With Shatner Does Has To Be Good Right ??? In-Reply-To: <4D80BB43.14980.1266626@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D80F4BB.5080501@ladylinux.com> <4D80B81D.6464.11A1A91@cclist.sydex.com> <4D80BB43.14980.1266626@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: 2011/3/16 Chuck Guzis > > > And what's wrong with tie-dye? -- an old Deadhead > > Nothing--I still see too much of it around town, though. The > Saturday Market is still chock full of it. But my town's kind of > retro that way... > > --Chuck > By the way, if we begin to speak about old-trek-glories and seventies-male-fashion, as a vote in favour of Shatner, you can search these two words together: nimoy+sideburns :-) Sergio From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 16 16:16:00 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 17:16:00 -0400 Subject: Ok Anything With Shatner Does Has To Be Good Right ??? In-Reply-To: References: <4D80F4BB.5080501@ladylinux.com> <4D80B81D.6464.11A1A91@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D812890.9030405@neurotica.com> On 3/16/11 4:59 PM, SPC wrote: > I shall never forget the shirt collars of Rock Hudson and company in > "McMillan and Wife". They're quite dangerous in windy areas. They'll take you right up off the ground! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spedraja at gmail.com Wed Mar 16 14:46:21 2011 From: spedraja at gmail.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 20:46:21 +0100 Subject: Heathkit H89 emulator Message-ID: Interesting work (in development). http://heathkit.garlanger.com/emulator/ -- Saludos - Greetings - Freundliche Gr??e - Salutations Sergio ----- "No creas todo lo que ves, ni creas que estas viendolo todo" From spedraja at gmail.com Wed Mar 16 14:58:01 2011 From: spedraja at gmail.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 20:58:01 +0100 Subject: More Heathkit Emulation Message-ID: And even more (dsure I forgot something or someone) :-) The well-known of D.Dunfield... http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/sim/index.htm plus others... http://davidwallace2000.home.comcast.net/~davidwallace2000/h8/The_Heathkit_H8_Digital_Computer.htm http://sebhc.lesbird.com/ http://www.pilgrimworks.com/trainer.htm http://home.comcast.net/~davidwallace2000/h8/project8080_archive/index.html One H67 emulation (shown in one YouTube movie) http://groups.google.com/group/sebhc/browse_thread/thread/49ff67a81b68c8f7/dd936f1879bcfc88?#dd936f1879bcfc88 or directly here... http://wn.com/Heathkit_H8 And not exactly Heathkit, but... http://www.ccso.co.uk/djc725/java_project/ -- Saludos - Greetings - Freundliche Gr??e - Salutations Sergio ----- "No creas todo lo que ves, ni creas que estas viendolo todo" From david at vhikits.com Wed Mar 16 15:42:31 2011 From: david at vhikits.com (David J. Cooper) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:42:31 -0700 Subject: FS: TRS-80 Model 16 & 6000 Message-ID: Hi, sorry in advance for replying to the group. However, for some reason my e-mails to you regarding the Model 16 and 6000 collection have bounced with a "General Failure". I'm a collector in Seattle. Please get in touch if these items are still available. david at marmotking dot com. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 16 16:16:02 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 14:16:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AT & T UNIX PC f/s - 100$ + shippage Message-ID: <629577.17912.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> boat load of docs. Working last time I turned it on (burps a little once in a while though). No software except what's on the h/d. I can provide more info and pictures after Friday (Punky need to go to the vet). From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Wed Mar 16 21:47:54 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 19:47:54 -0700 Subject: FS: TRS-80 Model 16 & 6000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D81765A.1030103@mail.msu.edu> Sorry I've been hard to reach (I have no idea why your mails have been bouncing, but that's pretty annoying...) It looks like the TRS-80 gear has been claimed, but I'll get in touch with you should it prove otherwise... Thanks! Josh On 3/16/2011 1:42 PM, David J. Cooper wrote: > Hi, sorry in advance for replying to the group. However, for some reason my e-mails to you regarding the Model 16 and 6000 collection have bounced with a "General Failure". I'm a collector in Seattle. Please get in touch if these items are still available. david at marmotking dot com. > From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Wed Mar 16 21:54:38 2011 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 19:54:38 -0700 Subject: Ebay fee change as of 4/1 In-Reply-To: References: <4D80D8CE.8040907@jwsss.com>, <4D808415.2093.4EDD16@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D80884F.2407.5F5E8D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <061101cbe44e$a9b31920$fd194b60$@com> On Wednesday, March 16, 2011 at 12:19 PM Richard wrote: > One of the reasons that people use those other sites is because they > *won't* take paypal. I've had that happen on more than one occasion. The Marketplace is fee free so it doesn't PayPal or anything else for the marketplace itself. It is, however, linked to PayPal and several other payment services so that you can allow buyers to pay via those services. Almost all of my buyers pay with PayPal directly from the invoice. As a seller you can restrict buyers to your preferred payment method(s) and as a buyer you can avoid sellers who won't accept your preferred payment method(s)... ----- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage Computer Forums marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage Computer and Gaming Marketplace From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 16 21:57:34 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 22:57:34 -0400 Subject: Ebay fee change as of 4/1 In-Reply-To: <061101cbe44e$a9b31920$fd194b60$@com> References: <4D80D8CE.8040907@jwsss.com>, <4D808415.2093.4EDD16@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D80884F.2407.5F5E8D@cclist.sydex.com> <061101cbe44e$a9b31920$fd194b60$@com> Message-ID: <4D81789E.3090903@neurotica.com> On 3/16/11 10:54 PM, Erik Klein wrote: > The Marketplace is fee free so it doesn't PayPal or anything else for the > marketplace itself. > > It is, however, linked to PayPal and several other payment services so that > you can allow buyers to pay via those services. > > Almost all of my buyers pay with PayPal directly from the invoice. > > As a seller you can restrict buyers to your preferred payment method(s) and > as a buyer you can avoid sellers who won't accept your preferred payment > method(s)... Wow, that's excellent functionality. I really need to "get into it" a bit more at the Marketplace. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From shawn.t.rutledge at gmail.com Wed Mar 16 22:02:53 2011 From: shawn.t.rutledge at gmail.com (Shawn Rutledge) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 20:02:53 -0700 Subject: complete Sun NeWS kit available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Pics are now at http://ecloud.org/pics/NeWS/ Each computer weighs 11 pounds, the manual is 4 pounds, CD drive 6 pounds, and I think the printer was 40 pounds; and there are some CD's, printer cable, power cable. So all together it should be less than 90 pounds if it was in one box, but we can ship it in 2 boxes since UPS charges more for heavy boxes anyway. I will include every Sun-related CD I can find. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 16 22:05:10 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 23:05:10 -0400 Subject: complete Sun NeWS kit available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D817A66.4000200@neurotica.com> On 3/16/11 11:02 PM, Shawn Rutledge wrote: > Pics are now at http://ecloud.org/pics/NeWS/ > > Each computer weighs 11 pounds, the manual is 4 pounds, CD drive 6 > pounds, and I think the printer was 40 pounds; and there are some > CD's, printer cable, power cable. So all together it should be less > than 90 pounds if it was in one box, but we can ship it in 2 boxes > since UPS charges more for heavy boxes anyway. I will include every > Sun-related CD I can find. I noticed a toner cartridge for that printer on eBay the other day, so they're not impossible to find, FYI. Great printers. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From shawn.t.rutledge at gmail.com Wed Mar 16 23:17:51 2011 From: shawn.t.rutledge at gmail.com (Shawn Rutledge) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 21:17:51 -0700 Subject: complete Sun NeWS kit available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Keyboards and optical mice will be included too. (Bumps up the weight a bit more though...) From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Mar 17 01:25:04 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 23:25:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ok Anything With Shatner Does Has To Be Good Right ??? In-Reply-To: <4D80B81D.6464.11A1A91@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Mar 16, 11 01:16:13 pm" Message-ID: <201103170625.p2H6P5KF009972@floodgap.com> > > Absolutely. Even worst. > > Men's fashion was beginning to recover its lost mind from the 1970s. > You missed the leisure suits, Nehru jackets with love-beads, > bellbottom pants, tie-dye shirts... I *like* Nehru jackets! But, I prefer them sans beads d'amour. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Art is either plagiarism or revolution. -- Paul Gauguin -------------------- From legalize at xmission.com Thu Mar 17 11:19:11 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 10:19:11 -0600 Subject: Ebay fee change as of 4/1 In-Reply-To: <061101cbe44e$a9b31920$fd194b60$@com> References: <4D80D8CE.8040907@jwsss.com>, <4D808415.2093.4EDD16@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D80884F.2407.5F5E8D@cclist.sydex.com> <061101cbe44e$a9b31920$fd194b60$@com> Message-ID: In article <061101cbe44e$a9b31920$fd194b60$@com>, "Erik Klein" writes: > It is, however, linked to PayPal and several other payment services so that > you can allow buyers to pay via those services. I don't recall it being that way the last time I looked at it several years ago. That's good that they're now providing direct linkage to paypal. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Mar 17 15:46:44 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 14:46:44 -0600 Subject: AT&T Pixel Machine photos Message-ID: I just added some photos of my AT&T Pixel Machine: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 17 16:37:56 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 17:37:56 -0400 Subject: AT&T Pixel Machine photos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D827F34.1020909@neurotica.com> On 3/17/11 4:46 PM, Richard wrote: > I just added some photos of my AT&T Pixel Machine: > > That is ONE BIG MOFO. I've never heard of it, despite having done a lot with AT&T (both the company and its computer/datacomm products) and growing up not far from where it was made. What are its general capabilities, graphics-wise? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Mar 17 16:46:12 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 16:46:12 -0500 Subject: AT&T Pixel Machine photos In-Reply-To: <4D827F34.1020909@neurotica.com> References: <4D827F34.1020909@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201103172148.p2HLmWF0088886@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 04:37 PM 3/17/2011, you wrote: >On 3/17/11 4:46 PM, Richard wrote: >>I just added some photos of my AT&T Pixel Machine: >> >> > > That is ONE BIG MOFO. I've never heard of it, despite having done a lot with AT&T (both the company and its computer/datacomm products) and growing up not far from where it was made. What are its general capabilities, graphics-wise? SIGGRAPH 89 proceedings: http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=74340 - John From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 17 17:05:54 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 18:05:54 -0400 Subject: AT&T Pixel Machine photos In-Reply-To: <201103172148.p2HLmWF0088886@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <4D827F34.1020909@neurotica.com> <201103172148.p2HLmWF0088886@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4D8285C2.6050704@neurotica.com> On 3/17/11 5:46 PM, John Foust wrote: >>> I just added some photos of my AT&T Pixel Machine: >>> >>> >> >> That is ONE BIG MOFO. I've never heard of it, despite having done a lot with AT&T (both the company and its computer/datacomm products) and growing up not far from where it was made. What are its general capabilities, graphics-wise? > > SIGGRAPH 89 proceedings: > > http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=74340 Wow, interesting design idea. Thanks for the pointer! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Thu Mar 17 17:22:19 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 16:22:19 -0600 Subject: AT&T Pixel Machine photos In-Reply-To: <201103172148.p2HLmWF0088886@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <4D827F34.1020909@neurotica.com> <201103172148.p2HLmWF0088886@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Mar 17 17:38:46 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 22:38:46 -0000 Subject: MicroVAX 3100 Model 95 Damaging SIMMs? Message-ID: <008201cbe4f4$153cf260$3fb6d720$@ntlworld.com> I have a MicroVAX 3100 Model 95 (KA51) which seems to be damaging my SIMMs. It will work for a while and then one or more SIMMs will fail. The failed SIMMs have always been in SET 0. Sometimes it has been just one SIMM, this time it seems to have been the whole set of 4. Is it really possible for the CPU to do this? Anyone got a KA51 they don't want? Regards Rob From legalize at xmission.com Thu Mar 17 17:53:18 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 16:53:18 -0600 Subject: MicroVAX 3100 Model 95 Damaging SIMMs? In-Reply-To: <008201cbe4f4$153cf260$3fb6d720$@ntlworld.com> References: <008201cbe4f4$153cf260$3fb6d720$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: In article <008201cbe4f4$153cf260$3fb6d720$@ntlworld.com>, "Rob Jarratt" writes: > Is it really possible for the CPU to do this? Bad voltage supplies or current surges can damage any parts. Have you checked that the PSU is operating within specification? Have you checked for signs of aging capacitors? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Mar 17 18:08:19 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 23:08:19 -0000 Subject: MicroVAX 3100 Model 95 Damaging SIMMs? In-Reply-To: References: <008201cbe4f4$153cf260$3fb6d720$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <008301cbe4f8$36678f50$a336adf0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard > Sent: 17 March 2011 22:53 > To: cctalk > Subject: Re: MicroVAX 3100 Model 95 Damaging SIMMs? > > > In article <008201cbe4f4$153cf260$3fb6d720$@ntlworld.com>, > "Rob Jarratt" writes: > > > Is it really possible for the CPU to do this? > > Bad voltage supplies or current surges can damage any parts. Have you > checked that the PSU is operating within specification? Have you checked > for signs of aging capacitors? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! No I have not, sounds like that is my next step, although I don't think I have the equipment to check if the PSU is operating to spec, I can visually check components. I won't be switching the machine on again until this is resolved as I am losing memory modules at an unpleasant rate. Thanks Rob From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Mar 17 18:14:20 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 16:14:20 -0700 Subject: AT&T Pixel Machine photos In-Reply-To: <4D8285C2.6050704@neurotica.com> References: <4D827F34.1020909@neurotica.com> <201103172148.p2HLmWF0088886@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4D8285C2.6050704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D8295CC.7040402@bitsavers.org> On 3/17/11 3:05 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> SIGGRAPH 89 proceedings: >> >> http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=74340 > I worked with Eric at Apple. He's still around, living in NYC, last time I checked. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Mar 17 21:56:22 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 20:56:22 -0600 Subject: MicroVAX 3100 Model 95 Damaging SIMMs? In-Reply-To: <008301cbe4f8$36678f50$a336adf0$@ntlworld.com> References: <008201cbe4f4$153cf260$3fb6d720$@ntlworld.com> <008301cbe4f8$36678f50$a336adf0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: In article <008301cbe4f8$36678f50$a336adf0$@ntlworld.com>, "Rob Jarratt" writes: > No I have not, sounds like that is my next step, although I don't think I > have the equipment to check if the PSU is operating to spec, I can visually > check components. Supply voltages can be checked with a simple voltmeter. With dummy resistor loads on the PSU you can check current supplied by measuring the voltage across the resistor load. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 17 22:34:02 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 23:34:02 -0400 Subject: neon lamps in spice? Message-ID: <4D82D2AA.5000703@neurotica.com> Hey folks. Does anyone know offhand if it's possible to model the hysteretic behavior of a neon lamp in ngspice or gnucap? Or, better yet, can anyone send me a working model or subcircuit? =) Thanks, -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 16 15:49:42 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:49:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ebay fee change as of 4/1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <839732.1931.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 3/16/11, Richard wrote: > Unfortunately the reason I don't use any of these other > sites instead > of ebay is that there isn't any hookup to a payment > mechanism. > Concluding business always requires a bunch of email back > and forth > and it just doesn't work very well. the very last reason on planet earth anyone should opt out of a particular method. I've sold perhaps 20 items to date on eBay. Sure nice final value, eyes light up, then what you're actually left with leaves something to be desired. There's still a benefit to using eBay, but I absolutely refuse to accept *ayPal unless the item I'm selling is under say 15$. I specify Moneybookers or check. If they don't like it, they can lump it. One guy wanted a box of manuals, offered a nice price for them too (subsequently items went unsold) and insisted on *ayPal. I refused, got tired of the back and forth, and told him I was canceling the transaction. Woo was he mad as hell. Now there are fees associated w/other payment methods. But at least it's not going to eWhores. And to complicate things more, if they opt for Money*ookers, they have to do it external to eBay. I actually broke down and decided to register my Money*ookers account w/eBay...then they asked for my SSI#. No way, no freaking how. Come on, get a life, and be men (and women). Take a check. Cut out the middlemen. I'm hopping mad over comments like this. And reminds me I need to take my little pressure pill. From greid57 at o2.co.uk Thu Mar 17 14:56:49 2011 From: greid57 at o2.co.uk (greid57 at o2.co.uk) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 19:56:49 -0000 Subject: RL02 drive tuneup Message-ID: <80C6AEAD54FC4E8CB607AA16FB206969@gryphon> Hi all, this thread has turned up at the right moment... I'm beginning to resurrect an 11/23 system so I can get stuff off an batch of old RL01's & RL02's. If it hadn't been for the comments about the foam filter, I'd have found out the hard way! The foam was like an exihibit from the Mummy's tomb - just crumbled away as soon as it was touched! So, I suppose it's safe to run the drive for a while *without* this filter, but is there anything to use as a short-term substitute? Also, if I leave the head-lock in place, and try to run up the drive with a pack, would it run up to speed so I could leave it to 'purge' the pack before powering-down and *then* allowing the heads to load? These packs and drives have not been stored in the best conditions, which is why I want to take precautions. Thanks for any suggestions, Graham Reid From acxy1234 at hotmail.co.uk Thu Mar 17 17:02:57 2011 From: acxy1234 at hotmail.co.uk (Karan) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 22:02:57 +0000 Subject: what is a CXY08-M good for? Message-ID: Sent from my iPhone From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 17 19:32:42 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 17:32:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone familiar w/640kb 5 1/4" format? Message-ID: <993729.81342.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Every blank that I place in the Canon AS-100 reports an error. All of these disks are new-old-stock. I know they work in other units (Commodore 128 for instance). Even the Tandy 2000 can format a standard 360/400k disk to 720k. I've tried those and high density floppies w/no success. What haven't I done? From chrise at pobox.com Fri Mar 18 06:11:37 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 06:11:37 -0500 Subject: RL02 drive tuneup In-Reply-To: <80C6AEAD54FC4E8CB607AA16FB206969@gryphon> References: <80C6AEAD54FC4E8CB607AA16FB206969@gryphon> Message-ID: <20110318111137.GC2281@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (03/17/2011 at 07:56PM -0000), greid57 at o2.co.uk wrote: > Hi all, > this thread has turned up at the right moment... > > I'm beginning to resurrect an 11/23 system so I can get stuff off an batch of old RL01's & RL02's. > > If it hadn't been for the comments about the foam filter, I'd have found out the hard way! > The foam was like an exihibit from the Mummy's tomb - just crumbled away as soon as it was touched! > > So, I suppose it's safe to run the drive for a while *without* this filter, but is there anything to use as a > short-term substitute? I found foam filter material at the local DIY store that was intended to add a filter to a home HVAC floor register. They are small roughly 3x9" white foam filters that I then cut to the same size as the mummified filter. But, honestly, I don't think the pre-filter is critical to running the drive if you are doing it in an otherwise clean environment and not running the drive 24x7. The pre-filter is intended to catch only the big chunks anyway-- leaves, sticks, hairballs from your cat, etc. > Also, if I leave the head-lock in place, and try to run up the drive with a pack, would it run up to speed > so I could leave it to 'purge' the pack before powering-down and *then* allowing the heads to load? Hmm... personally, I wouldn't do that because you will have the servo power the heads into that locking plate. It would be better I think to disconnect the servo control wire which is inside the compartment with the read/write board. There is a red wire with bullet connector which is intended to be disconnected during many of the alignment/cal procedures. This wire carries the servo control signal and when opened, keeps the head movement unpowered. I think this would be more safe than just locking the heads and then trying to run... > These packs and drives have not been stored in the best conditions, which is why I want to take precautions. Some of the other suggestions about blowing the pack off with compressed air, etc. might be good advice as well. > Thanks for any suggestions, > Graham Reid -- Chris Elmquist From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 18 09:22:09 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 10:22:09 -0400 Subject: what is a CXY08-M good for? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D836A91.3030506@neurotica.com> On 3/17/11 6:02 PM, Karan wrote: > Sent from my iPhone Wow, somebody needs both an "email 101" and "how to set up an iPhone 101" at the same time. ;) A CXY08 is an eight-port multiplexer. Of course it doesn't "multiplex" much of anything, but that's what they've always been called. It's eight serial ports on a board. As for what it's "good for", well, for connecting up to eight serially-interfaced things to a PDP-11 or VAX. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 18 09:36:36 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 10:36:36 -0400 Subject: what is a CXY08-M good for? In-Reply-To: <4D836A91.3030506@neurotica.com> References: <4D836A91.3030506@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 10:22 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > ?A CXY08 is an eight-port multiplexer. ?Of course it doesn't "multiplex" > much of anything, but that's what they've always been called. ?It's eight > serial ports on a board. Since I have some cables for one, I thought I'd go digging. These links popped out... http://antinode.info/dec/cxy08_cable.html http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/wiz_7270.html > ?As for what it's "good for", well, for connecting up to eight > serially-interfaced things to a PDP-11 or VAX. I was curious about that... specifically, I caught that there's a DHU/DHV-compatibility setting, but I was curious how far back there's support for this board. I'm sure it'll work with modernish versions of VMS, but what about PDP-11 operating systems? (most specifically, I'd be thinking of RSTS and 2BSD). Anyone have any experience with that? (My own is with older products on older machines, but except for DZ11s and DLJ11Js, I think some of the older multi-serial interfaces are less easy to find these days). -ethan From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Mar 18 10:16:29 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 10:16:29 -0500 Subject: what is a CXY08-M good for? In-Reply-To: <4D836A91.3030506@neurotica.com> References: <4D836A91.3030506@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D83774D.6080402@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On 3/17/11 6:02 PM, Karan wrote: >> Sent from my iPhone > > Wow, somebody needs both an "email 101" and "how to set up an iPhone > 101" at the same time. ;) If you borrow someone's iPhone and send something, is it clever enough to say "sent from 's iPhone" instead? From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Mar 18 10:13:09 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 08:13:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: what is a CXY08-M good for? In-Reply-To: <4D83774D.6080402@gmail.com> from Jules Richardson at "Mar 18, 11 10:16:29 am" Message-ID: <201103181513.p2IFD9Zs009486@floodgap.com> > > Wow, somebody needs both an "email 101" and "how to set up an iPhone > > 101" at the same time. ;) > > If you borrow someone's iPhone and send something, is it clever enough to > say "sent from 's iPhone" instead? No, it says "Stolen" and pages Steve Jobs. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Do me a favour: don't breed. -- "Sledge Hammer!" --------------------------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 18 10:14:25 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 11:14:25 -0400 Subject: what is a CXY08-M good for? In-Reply-To: <4D83774D.6080402@gmail.com> References: <4D836A91.3030506@neurotica.com> <4D83774D.6080402@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4D8376D1.6010800@neurotica.com> On 3/18/11 11:16 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: >>> Sent from my iPhone >> >> Wow, somebody needs both an "email 101" and "how to set up an iPhone >> 101" at the same time. ;) > > If you borrow someone's iPhone and send something, is it clever enough > to say "sent from 's iPhone" instead? That's coming in iOS 5! ;) Sometimes I'd swear I'm the only person who changes the default (friggin' advertisement) mail signature. Half the messages I send to this list are done from my iPhone, and I'll bet you'd never know it. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 18 11:09:35 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 09:09:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: what is a CXY08-M good for? In-Reply-To: References: <4D836A91.3030506@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Mar 2011, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I was curious about that... specifically, I caught that there's a > DHU/DHV-compatibility setting, but I was curious how far back there's > support for this board. I'm sure it'll work with modernish versions > of VMS, but what about PDP-11 operating systems? (most specifically, > I'd be thinking of RSTS and 2BSD). Anyone have any experience with > that? (My own is with older products on older machines, but except > for DZ11s and DLJ11Js, I think some of the older multi-serial > interfaces are less easy to find these days). Wasn't the CXY08-M used in the DECserver 550 (or whatever it was called)? I don't know if the OS's you mention support the board, but the DECserver that used these had PDP-11/53 CPU's in them. I had a couple of the DECserver's, but sadly had to dump them years ago. I kept a few of Serial boards and cables, along with the other boards. Zane From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Mar 18 11:52:17 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 09:52:17 -0700 Subject: what is a CXY08-M good for? In-Reply-To: References: <4D836A91.3030506@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 9:09 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Wasn't the CXY08-M used in the DECserver 550 (or whatever it was called)? ?I > don't know if the OS's you mention support the board, but the DECserver that > used these had PDP-11/53 CPU's in them. ?I had a couple of the DECserver's, > but sadly had to dump them years ago. ?I kept a few of Serial boards and > cables, along with the other boards. > A DECserver 550 is basically a M7554-SD KDJ11-SD, a M7516-PA DELQA-SA, and one or more M3119-YA CXY08-M or M3118-YA CXA16-M, in a BA213 box. I have a KDJ11-SD and have replaced its DECserver 550 EPROMs with standard 11/53 EPROMs and have run 2.11BSD and RSTS/E 10.1 on and I'm pretty sure I had no problem using both those OS with CXY08-M and CXA16-M modules as terminal login connections. I don't know if there are any programming interface differences between a CXY08-M or a CXA16-M and an M3107 DHQ11. I think they are basically equivalent. -Glen From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Mar 18 12:04:39 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 10:04:39 -0700 Subject: what is a CXY08-M good for? In-Reply-To: References: <4D836A91.3030506@neurotica.com> Message-ID: >From the RSTS/E 10.1 Software Product Description: PRODUCT NAME: RSTS/E, Version 10.1 SPD 13.01.37 MicroPDP-11/23 /53/73/83/93 11 Processor_________/23-PLUS Interfaces Up to 8: DZV11-C, DZQ11, DHV11, DHQ11, CXY08, CXA16, CXB16, DFA01 Up to 4: DHF11 From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Fri Mar 18 11:43:46 2011 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 12:43:46 -0400 Subject: what is a CXY08-M good for? References: <4D836A91.3030506@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <6BA13673FA34445AB26CCE8698CE4612@newf86f195615f> I have a pair of MicroVAX 3800's that came with one CXY-08 as they were originally used to collect process data from a variety of serial devices. DECserver 550's came with 8 and 16 port varieties Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 12:09 PM Subject: Re: what is a CXY08-M good for? > > > On Fri, 18 Mar 2011, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> I was curious about that... specifically, I caught that there's a >> DHU/DHV-compatibility setting, but I was curious how far back there's >> support for this board. I'm sure it'll work with modernish versions >> of VMS, but what about PDP-11 operating systems? (most specifically, >> I'd be thinking of RSTS and 2BSD). Anyone have any experience with >> that? (My own is with older products on older machines, but except >> for DZ11s and DLJ11Js, I think some of the older multi-serial >> interfaces are less easy to find these days). > > Wasn't the CXY08-M used in the DECserver 550 (or whatever it was called)? > I > don't know if the OS's you mention support the board, but the DECserver > that > used these had PDP-11/53 CPU's in them. I had a couple of the > DECserver's, > but sadly had to dump them years ago. I kept a few of Serial boards and > cables, along with the other boards. > > Zane > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 18 13:01:28 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 14:01:28 -0400 Subject: what is a CXY08-M good for? In-Reply-To: References: <4D836A91.3030506@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 12:09 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > On Fri, 18 Mar 2011, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> I was curious about that... specifically... how far back there's >> support for this board. ?I'm sure it'll work with modernish versions >> of VMS, but what about PDP-11 operating systems? > > Wasn't the CXY08-M used in the DECserver 550 (or whatever it was called)? One of those products, yes (don't remember the precise model number) >?I don't know if the OS's you mention support the board, but the DECserver that > used these had PDP-11/53 CPU's in them. Yes. I know nothing about the software that ran on those. I was thinking about the more generic use of repurposing the serial cards with a more accessible OS (i.e., one I use as opposed to a canned single-purpose application). > ?I had a couple of the DECserver's, > but sadly had to dump them years ago. ?I kept a few of Serial boards and > cables, along with the other boards. A few years ago, I picked up a CPU board from one of these DECservers. It's one of two KDF-11s I have (the other being a DECprofessional 380). I still need to either drill out the handle or pick up a newer enclosure. I was also contemplating seeing if I could fit it into my MINC on a temporary basis (with the lid off) or an empty CompuServe "trinode" I have (a triple-backplane, triple-PSU rackmount box that was once part of the CIS internal X.25 network). Conversely, this CPU board is the only S-box board I have, but I know it's easy to drop older boards into an S-box if I run across an enclosure. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 18 13:03:00 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 14:03:00 -0400 Subject: what is a CXY08-M good for? In-Reply-To: References: <4D836A91.3030506@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 12:52 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 9:09 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> >> Wasn't the CXY08-M used in the DECserver 550 (or whatever it was called)? > A DECserver 550 is basically a M7554-SD KDJ11-SD, a M7516-PA DELQA-SA, > and one or more M3119-YA CXY08-M or M3118-YA CXA16-M, in a BA213 box. As previously mentioned, I have the CPU board from one of those. > I have a KDJ11-SD and have replaced its DECserver 550 EPROMs with > standard 11/53 EPROMs... That's one of my PDP-11 projects in the queue. > and have run 2.11BSD and RSTS/E 10.1 on and I'm > pretty sure I had no problem using both those OS with CXY08-M and > CXA16-M modules as terminal login connections. Good to know in case I run across either a CXY08 or CXA16. > I don't know if there are any programming interface differences > between a CXY08-M or a CXA16-M and an M3107 DHQ11. ?I think they are > basically equivalent. Excellent. Thanks for the confirmation. -ethan From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Mar 18 13:36:14 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 11:36:14 -0700 Subject: BA213 front door? Message-ID: Does anyone have a spare front door for a BA213 cabinet taking up space? PLEASE NOTE: this is for my private collection, not the Living Computer Museum. I have a MicroVAX II that's missing the door. It's not one of those things where I want to spend a lot of money, but if you have one just kicking around and would rather have a six-pack of good beer.... I'm in Seattle - shipping from e.g. Europe might be a bit excessive. Thanks - Ian Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until they speak. Ian S. King, Sr. Vintage Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum A project of Vulcan, Inc. http:/www.livingcomputermuseum.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 18 15:13:42 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 20:13:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: anyone familiar w/640kb 5 1/4" format? In-Reply-To: <993729.81342.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Mar 17, 11 05:32:42 pm Message-ID: > > Every blank that I place in the Canon AS-100 reports an error. > > All of these disks are new-old-stock. I know they work in other units > (Commodore 128 for instance). > > Even the Tandy 2000 can format a standard 360/400k disk to 720k. I've > tried those and high density floppies w/no success. What haven't I done? Although I don;t know the machine in qusiton, this sounds like an 80 cylinder double-sided format using the normal double-desnity date rate [Remember that the original IBM PC-DOS double-sided format was 320K. 40 cylinders, 2 hears, 8 sectors/track, 512 bytes/sector. Your disks could be much the same but with 80 cylinders] If so, you certainly don;t want to be using the high density disks. Their coercivity is too high. I have had problems using PC '360K' disks in 80 cylinder drives. I am not sure why, but some do not format reliably. It may be something like a higher noise level on disks not required to handle 80 cylinders. I was given a large bag of bluk-erased DEC RX50 disks (which were origianlly 80 cylinder signle-sided), and have never had any problems with those, not even using both sides. Of coruse, there may be a problem with your disk controller or drive. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 18 14:18:28 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 19:18:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RL02 drive tuneup In-Reply-To: <80C6AEAD54FC4E8CB607AA16FB206969@gryphon> from "greid57@o2.co.uk" at Mar 17, 11 07:56:49 pm Message-ID: > > Hi all, > this thread has turned up at the right moment... > > I'm beginning to resurrect an 11/23 system so I can get stuff off an = > batch of old RL01's & RL02's. > > If it hadn't been for the comments about the foam filter, I'd have found = > out the hard way! > The foam was like an exihibit from the Mummy's tomb - just crumbled away = > as soon as it was touched! Hopefully you caught it before too much of the pre-filter ended up on the absolute filter. > > So, I suppose it's safe to run the drive for a while *without* this = > filter, but is there anything to use as a > short-term substitute? Unless your computer room is very dusty, it shoudl be safe to run the drive without it. But having the pre-filter in place will prolong the life of the absolute fitler. At one time, I bleive,y you could buy filter material in large sheets for use in air conditioner,s etc. A piece cut from such a sheet would be fine. It really isn't that critical > > Also, if I leave the head-lock in place, and try to run up the drive = > with a pack, would it run up to speed > so I could leave it to 'purge' the pack before powering-down and *then* = > allowing the heads to load? It should do (in that the pack has to be up to speed before the heads even attempt to load, so keepign the heads off the platter with the trasnport lock would allow the spindle/blower to run without any risk of the heads loading), but I wouldn't do it/. The reason is tht once the drive thinks it's safe to load the heads, it will attempt to do so, and it may just keep passing current throug the stalled positoned motor and servo amplifier output stages. Whether this will do any damage I don't lnow, but I don't like it. I would keep the transport lock in place _and_ unplug the positioner motor connector from the PSU ('DC Servo' ?) board. That way the heads can't load, and it can't over-current the motor. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 18 15:44:09 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 20:44:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RL02 drive tuneup In-Reply-To: <20110318111137.GC2281@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Mar 18, 11 06:11:37 am Message-ID: > Hmm... personally, I wouldn't do that because you will have the servo power > the heads into that locking plate. It would be better I think to disconnect > the servo control wire which is inside the compartment with the read/write > board. There is a red wire with bullet connector which is intended to be You;re right, I'd forgoten abot uthat in-line connector. That is probably the best wayt to disable the motor. I would leave the lock in place though, it will certainly prevent the heds from loading. > disconnected during many of the alignment/cal procedures. This wire carries > the servo control signal and when opened, keeps the head movement unpowered. > I think this would be more safe than just locking the heads and then trying > to run... > > > These packs and drives have not been stored in the best conditions, which is why I want to take precautions. > > Some of the other suggestions about blowing the pack off with compressed air, > etc. might be good advice as well. I don;t knowwhere you get the compressed air from, but some compressors do put a significant amount of oil in the air. The RK05 manuals warn aobut this, it's it a very bad idea to put oil on th disk or heads :-) I am told (but have never tried it) that those cans of compressed air used for cleaning cameras, etc, aregood for blowing the dust off disk packs. -tony From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Mar 18 15:59:06 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 20:59:06 +0000 Subject: Manuals / jumper map for NEC FD1165 with G9NYB PCB Message-ID: <4D83C79A.30903@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, Does anyone have a copy of the OEM manual (or service manual) for the NEC FD1165 disc drive variant which had the "G9NYB" controller board? I've got one of these on the bench, which I'm trying to attach to the DiscFerret. The jumper settings don't make sense, and the location and function diagrams in the manual on Bitsavers are for a drive with a G9NYF controller board... Does anyone have a jumper map or a copy of the manuals for this thing? Thankfully the power connector was labelled -- thank you NEC! Unfortunately the two DIL terminator resistor packs have been snaffled, and I'd rather like to know if the G9NYB used the same 150-ohm resistor pack the G9NYF used before I go installing a bunch of MR25 resistors in their place (seeing as I haven't got any 150R x8 DIL packs) Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 18 16:08:28 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 14:08:28 -0700 Subject: Manuals / jumper map for NEC FD1165 with G9NYB PCB In-Reply-To: <4D83C79A.30903@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D83C79A.30903@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D83675C.31788.1028AF3@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Mar 2011 at 20:59, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > > Does anyone have a copy of the OEM manual (or service manual) for the > NEC FD1165 disc drive variant which had the "G9NYB" controller board? Do I assume that you looked on bitsavers and that the maintenance manual didn't give you want you need? http://bitsavers.org/pdf/nec/FD1165_maint.pdf --Chuck From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Mar 18 16:16:17 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 17:16:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Manuals / jumper map for NEC FD1165 with G9NYB PCB In-Reply-To: <4D83C79A.30903@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D83C79A.30903@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Mar 2011, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > > Does anyone have a copy of the OEM manual (or service manual) for the NEC > FD1165 disc drive variant which had the "G9NYB" controller board? > > I've got one of these on the bench, which I'm trying to attach to the > DiscFerret. The jumper settings don't make sense, and the location and > function diagrams in the manual on Bitsavers are for a drive with a G9NYF > controller board... > > Does anyone have a jumper map or a copy of the manuals for this thing? AFAIK, all 8" drives used 150-ohm termination. I have a couple of FD1165s here that also fail to match the bitsavers doc. However, I don't recall it being all that difficult to figure things out. What specifically isn't lining up? Generally the acronyms and abbreviations in the jumper silkscreen remain the same across revisions. Steve -- From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Mar 18 18:26:22 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 23:26:22 +0000 Subject: Manuals / jumper map for NEC FD1165 with G9NYB PCB In-Reply-To: <4D83675C.31788.1028AF3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D83C79A.30903@philpem.me.uk> <4D83675C.31788.1028AF3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D83EA1E.7050600@philpem.me.uk> On 18/03/11 21:08, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Does anyone have a copy of the OEM manual (or service manual) for the >> NEC FD1165 disc drive variant which had the "G9NYB" controller board? > > Do I assume that you looked on bitsavers and that the maintenance > manual didn't give you want you need? > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/nec/FD1165_maint.pdf Yup, that manual is for a different PCB... For a start, the data connector is a 50-pin IDC, not a card-edge connector. Secondly, the jumpers are scattered all over, and not in the places shown in the manual. I've got these jumpers on the board: RX -- 2x3 block labelled "0", "1", "2", "3" (set to 0) DX -- 2x3 block labelled "0", "1", "2", "3" (set to 0) VF -- wire link across "0" and centre pad VO -- wire link across "M" and centre pad RD -- 1x3 block labelled "1", "2" (set to 2) HD -- two pads, linked with wire RGT -- 1x3 block labelled "1", "2" (set to 1) AUT -- 1x3 block labelled "T", "S" (no jumper cap) DL -- 1x3 block labelled "1", "2" (set to 1) DR -- 1x3 block labelled "1", "2" (set to 1) DH -- 1x3 block labelled "1", "2" (set to 1) SC -- 1x3 block labelled "1", "2" (set to 1) SR -- three pads labelled "1", "2", open-circuit RG -- 1x3 block labelled "1", "2" (set to 1) The manual lists: DX -- Drive Select HL -- Head Load. 1=use Head Load input, 2=use Select input RX -- Radial Ready, 1=gated by drvsel, 2=always available SS -- Side Select. 1=use SIDESEL pin, 2=use DIRECTION pin PR -- Write Protect. PR1=inhibit recording when WP active, PR2=don't enforce WP FR -- FR1 = disable File Unsafe. FR2 = enable File Unsafe. DH/DL/DR -- Door Lock: DR -- DR1 = READY from controller enables Door Lock DL -- DL1 = (INUSE & DRVSEL) enables Door Lock DH -- DH1 = Lock Hold (generated by drive) enables Door Lock US -- In Use. Solder pads. US1=enable INUSE signal RD -- Read Data. RD1=source from read amp, RD2=source from VFO pulse shaper BU, BS -- Busy Lamp mode On during head load -- BU2,BS2 On during drive select -- BU2, BS1 On during In Use -- BU1, no BS jumper Which leaves: RX -- different implementation VF -- not listed in the manual VO HD RGT AUT SC SR RG And these jumpers which are in the manual but not on my drive: HL SS PR FR US BU, BS "Something isn't quite right..." -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 18 19:04:15 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 17:04:15 -0700 Subject: Manuals / jumper map for NEC FD1165 with G9NYB PCB In-Reply-To: <4D83EA1E.7050600@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D83C79A.30903@philpem.me.uk>, <4D83675C.31788.1028AF3@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D83EA1E.7050600@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D83908F.22328.1A37A79@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Mar 2011 at 23:26, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Yup, that manual is for a different PCB... > > For a start, the data connector is a 50-pin IDC, not a card-edge > connector. Secondly, the jumpers are scattered all over, and not in > the places shown in the manual. Do you have any idea what system the drive is from? The 1165s were used in a lot of Japanese PC98-type industrial equipment, for example. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Mar 18 19:28:03 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 00:28:03 +0000 Subject: Manuals / jumper map for NEC FD1165 with G9NYB PCB In-Reply-To: <4D83908F.22328.1A37A79@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D83C79A.30903@philpem.me.uk>, <4D83675C.31788.1028AF3@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D83EA1E.7050600@philpem.me.uk> <4D83908F.22328.1A37A79@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D83F893.9020903@philpem.me.uk> On 19/03/11 00:04, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Do you have any idea what system the drive is from? The 1165s were > used in a lot of Japanese PC98-type industrial equipment, for > example. From what I've been told, it came from a "Samurai" 8086 based machine, possibly an "S16". Google provided no useful hits, and I couldn't see anything on Bitsavers. The drive pinout appears to be pretty non-standard. It doesn't match up with the standard edge connector at all... Shorting pins 49 and 50, for instance, makes the "drive active/heads loaded" LED light... The connector is a 3M 3433, which is an IDC-like connector with two polarising pins, neither of which is in the centre of the connector. To make an IDC crimp plug fit, you have to shave off the polarising pin... Somehow I get the feeling this is going to end with me reverse engineering the pinout with a multimeter, and hoping this board uses the same programmed 8048 that the other board variant uses... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 18 20:20:56 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 18:20:56 -0700 Subject: Manuals / jumper map for NEC FD1165 with G9NYB PCB In-Reply-To: <4D83F893.9020903@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D83C79A.30903@philpem.me.uk>, <4D83908F.22328.1A37A79@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D83F893.9020903@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D83A288.23128.1E9AE94@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Mar 2011 at 0:28, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Somehow I get the feeling this is going to end with me reverse > engineering the pinout with a multimeter, and hoping this board uses > the same programmed 8048 that the other board variant uses... The only mention of the S16 that I can find is from an August, 1983 "New Scientist" article--something about the London Computer Marathon, in which the S16 and the Olivetti M20 were the 16-bit finalists. A note is made that the S16 is imported, presumably from Japan. Given the early date, I wonder if the S16 wasn't a re-badged NEC PC9801E? What color is the faceplate? If it's not black, but beige, that would go toward confirming my suspicions. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Mar 18 20:43:53 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 01:43:53 +0000 Subject: Manuals / jumper map for NEC FD1165 with G9NYB PCB In-Reply-To: <4D83A288.23128.1E9AE94@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D83C79A.30903@philpem.me.uk>, <4D83908F.22328.1A37A79@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D83F893.9020903@philpem.me.uk> <4D83A288.23128.1E9AE94@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D840A59.7020508@philpem.me.uk> On 19/03/11 01:20, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Given the early date, I wonder if the S16 wasn't a re-badged NEC > PC9801E? > > What color is the faceplate? If it's not black, but beige, that > would go toward confirming my suspicions. Yep -- beige faceplate, with a dark grey latch handle. The text on the drive's model number plate is: MODEL FD1165 S P/N 134-100390-121-0 [121 is handwritten] SERIAL NO 162774 MFG DATE 1982/12 [12 is handwritten] [ NEC logo ] Nippon Electric Co. Ltd. MADE IN JAPAN To the right of the model number plate: 21215 (stamped) REV 010 ("010" handwritten, possibly "0/0") Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 18 21:46:13 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 19:46:13 -0700 Subject: Manuals / jumper map for NEC FD1165 with G9NYB PCB In-Reply-To: <4D840A59.7020508@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D83C79A.30903@philpem.me.uk>, <4D83A288.23128.1E9AE94@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D840A59.7020508@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D83B685.2910.237C3F6@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Mar 2011 at 1:43, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 19/03/11 01:20, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Given the early date, I wonder if the S16 wasn't a re-badged NEC > > PC9801E? > > > > What color is the faceplate? If it's not black, but beige, that > > would go toward confirming my suspicions. > > Yep -- beige faceplate, with a dark grey latch handle. > > The text on the drive's model number plate is: > > MODEL FD1165 S > P/N 134-100390-121-0 [121 is handwritten] > SERIAL NO 162774 MFG DATE 1982/12 [12 is handwritten] > [ NEC logo ] Nippon Electric Co. Ltd. > MADE IN JAPAN I found a mention on a Japanese PC collector's website: http://www2.ucatv.ne.jp/~m_okubo.moon/98fdd/fd1165a.html Scroll down a bit and you'll see your FD1165S. He seems to be saying that this was part of the PC8881 external drive box used with the early PC9801 (which had no internal drives), but originally marketed for the 8-bit PC8801: http://park10.wakwak.com/~pinevill/image/nec/PC8881.JPG Maybe someone has a manual for this thing... --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Mar 19 04:15:24 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 09:15:24 +0000 Subject: Manuals / jumper map for NEC FD1165 with G9NYB PCB In-Reply-To: <4D83B685.2910.237C3F6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D83C79A.30903@philpem.me.uk>, <4D83A288.23128.1E9AE94@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D840A59.7020508@philpem.me.uk> <4D83B685.2910.237C3F6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D84742C.7060007@philpem.me.uk> On 19/03/11 02:46, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I found a mention on a Japanese PC collector's website: > > http://www2.ucatv.ne.jp/~m_okubo.moon/98fdd/fd1165a.html > > Scroll down a bit and you'll see your FD1165S. He seems to be saying > that this was part of the PC8881 external drive box used with the > early PC9801 (which had no internal drives), but originally marketed > for the 8-bit PC8801: > > http://park10.wakwak.com/~pinevill/image/nec/PC8881.JPG > > Maybe someone has a manual for this thing... Google-fu FTW! This page lists a few pinouts for the drives in the PC-8881 enclosure, including a YE-Data drive (the YD180-1603)... the pinout for which is suspiciously similar to my NEC drive: http://ematei.web11.jp/kakolog/200302/r060036_.htm Scroll down about half-way to a post by "Ludolph", or the later post by "HAMLIN". Google Translate (JP -> EN) may prove useful... :) Which via a search for "YD180-1603" leads us to this little gem: http://www.d1.dion.ne.jp/~ytera/FD_AN-YE.PDF A Japanese PDF containing pinouts and pin descriptions for: * Shugart-style ("ANSI pinout") drives (YD180-1601) * YE-Data custom pinout (YD180-1600) * "VFO" pinout (YD180-1603) And what is pin 49 on the YD180-1603 pinout? Why, it's HEAD LOAD of course... I think it's a fair guess the FD1165S uses the "VFO" pinout (which means I need to make another adapter.. grr). I'd still like a manual or jumper list, though... Cheers, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From bknittel at quarterbyte.com Fri Mar 18 13:15:43 2011 From: bknittel at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 11:15:43 -0700 Subject: Three phase and IBM Message-ID: <2B75209B-AD52-45E9-9320-44D36010DFDF@quarterbyte.com> Anyone have direct, real-world experience in setting up three phase for IBM gear, particularly the 3880 and the 3803 (dasd and tape) controllers? I need to know how to determine if the setup needs to be wye or delta. And, if you're local to the SF Bay Area, there will be some smoke-test parties coming up. (Scary parts of the work performed by a licensed electrician). Hands on help before, during and after will be appreciated. Pizza will be provided. From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Mar 19 05:43:22 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 02:43:22 -0800 Subject: anyone familiar w/640kb 5 1/4" format? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 3/18/11 12:13 PM, "Tony Duell" wrote: > SNIPPAGE > > If so, you certainly don;t want to be using the high density disks. Their > coercivity is too high. > > I have had problems using PC '360K' disks in 80 cylinder drives. I am not > sure why, but some do not format reliably. It may be something like a > higher noise level on disks not required to handle 80 cylinders. > > I was given a large bag of bluk-erased DEC RX50 disks (which were > origianlly 80 cylinder signle-sided), and have never had any problems with > those, not even using both sides. > > Of coruse, there may be a problem with your disk controller or drive. > > -tony I have to agree with tony on a couple things :) 1: don't use High density disks, if you DO get them to format, the data retention is coing to be short lived generally. And 2: there may be something wrong with the controller or drive. :) I rarely have trouble though using 40tk DSDD media in 80tk DSDD (or QD as some call it) HOWEVER I NEVER use media that is currently holding a 40 track format. If all I have is 40tk DSDD formatted media, it goes visiting the degausser/bulk eraser. I have had lots of problems using non bulk erased media that HAD been formatted 40tk DSDD in 80 track drives (dec-rainbow RX50, Altos (can't remember model, but it used 100tpi 80 track drives IIRC and ran CP/M) or even on a 286 or better formatting the media out to 720K in a 1.2M drive. So... If it ain't formatting reliably, bulk erase the hell out of the 40tk DSDD media and it -should- format out fine to 80 track DSDD. I saved a LOT of money by using the "40 track" media. A friend working at Verbatim (IIRC) many moons ago told me their "dirty little secret", all of their low density media was designed to go 80 track, once there was > certain percentage failure rate during testing, possibly 5%, don't remember for sure, the media was 'certified' as 40 track and packaged as such. But that is pretty much the same way the ram manufacturers rated their DRAMs speed wise :) From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Mar 19 04:46:58 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 02:46:58 -0700 Subject: Three phase and IBM In-Reply-To: <2B75209B-AD52-45E9-9320-44D36010DFDF@quarterbyte.com> References: <2B75209B-AD52-45E9-9320-44D36010DFDF@quarterbyte.com> Message-ID: <4D847B92.2010604@brouhaha.com> Brian Knittel wrote: > I need to know how to determine if the setup needs to be wye or delta. Check the power plug or cable. If the equipment has a neutral (not ground!) lead, it needs wye. Otherwise it needs delta. That usually means that a four-lead power cable (three phases and ground) for delta, and five-lead (three phases, neutral, and ground) for wye. However, some old equipment doesn't have a ground lead, in which case it is three for delta, four for wye. If the equipment contains any three-phase synchronous motors, you have to get the phases in the right sequence; if they are reversed, the motors run backwards. That can affect blowers, and the spindle motors of disk drives. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Mar 19 06:49:49 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 12:49:49 +0100 Subject: Three phase and IBM In-Reply-To: <4D847B92.2010604@brouhaha.com> References: <2B75209B-AD52-45E9-9320-44D36010DFDF@quarterbyte.com> <4D847B92.2010604@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20110319124949.5cde22af.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 19 Mar 2011 02:46:58 -0700 Eric Smith wrote: > Check the power plug or cable. If the equipment has a neutral (not > ground!) lead, it needs wye. Otherwise it needs delta. No. If you have a symetrical load like a motor you can wire it Y without connecting neutral. So the presence of netral is no indication of Y or D. Y or D depends on the voltage the equipment needs per "leg" and the voltage the grid delivers. Remember voltage phase to phase is sqrt(3) times voltage phase to neutral. > If the equipment contains any three-phase synchronous motors, you have > to get the phases in the right sequence; if they are reversed, the > motors run backwards. This applies to asynchronous motors in the same way. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Mar 19 07:02:57 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 08:02:57 -0400 Subject: Three phase and IBM In-Reply-To: <4D847B92.2010604@brouhaha.com> References: <2B75209B-AD52-45E9-9320-44D36010DFDF@quarterbyte.com> <4D847B92.2010604@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > If the equipment contains any three-phase synchronous motors, you have to > get the phases in the right sequence; if they are reversed, the motors run > backwards. ?That can affect blowers, and the spindle motors of disk drives. I am not sure about these two controllers, but most larger IBM pieces have phase rotation sensors, and will power check if hooked up wrong. -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 19 14:24:33 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 19:24:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Manuals / jumper map for NEC FD1165 with G9NYB PCB In-Reply-To: <4D83C79A.30903@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Mar 18, 11 08:59:06 pm Message-ID: > Thankfully the power connector was labelled -- thank you NEC! > Unfortunately the two DIL terminator resistor packs have been snaffled, Or maybe it wasn't the last drive on the cable when it was last used. > and I'd rather like to know if the G9NYB used the same 150-ohm resistor > pack the G9NYF used before I go installing a bunch of MR25 resistors in > their place (seeing as I haven't got any 150R x8 DIL packs) They're almost certainly 150 ohm. The only thing to work out is thwe connections. The termination resisotrs go from a signal to Vcc (+5V). I would start by buzzing out the +5V line to the p[ins on the terminator socket. If you find all one column are +5V, then the terminator is 8 idividual reissotrs. If +5V goes to pin 16 only, then it's more likely to be 15 commoned resistors (with the common to pin 16). The latter are much harder to find in my experience (having just had to obtain a 16 pin DIL pack of 15 commoned 220R resistors...). If you find that pin 16 goes to +5V nd pin 8 is ground, then it's quite possible that the rrsitor pack is a potential divider type network (say 330R to +5C and 220R to ground on each of the rrmaining 14 pins). Such networks are rare in floppy drives btu common in other devices. I wouldn;t solder any resisotrs to the PCB. Yo umay well want to remove the terminator at some point. Use a DIL header plug if you can't get he right DIL network. -tony > > Thanks, > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 19 14:47:02 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 19:47:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Three phase and IBM In-Reply-To: <4D847B92.2010604@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Mar 19, 11 02:46:58 am Message-ID: > > Brian Knittel wrote: > > I need to know how to determine if the setup needs to be wye or delta. > > Check the power plug or cable. If the equipment has a neutral (not > ground!) lead, it needs wye. Otherwise it needs delta. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Isn't it more corret to say 'Otherwise the load is delta-connected and can be conneted ot a delta-connected supply. You could also conenct it to a star (Wye) supply of the appropriate phase to phase voltage by ignoring the neutral ocnnection of the supply'. Most computer systems that need 3 phase mains are star (Wye) connected, simply because you can connect single-phase loads (of which there are likely to be many) from one phase conductor to neutral. > > That usually means that a four-lead power cable (three phases and > ground) for delta, and five-lead (three phases, neutral, and ground) for > wye. However, some old equipment doesn't have a ground lead, in which > case it is three for delta, four for wye. > > If the equipment contains any three-phase synchronous motors, you have > to get the phases in the right sequence; if they are reversed, the > motors run backwards. That can affect blowers, and the spindle motors > of disk drives. Murphy's law ensures that you will get this wrong the first time. If at all possible, make sure that whatever the motor is drivbing will not be damaged if it runs backwards 9remove drive belts, etc if necessary) and poer up briefly to see which way it turns. -tony From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Mar 19 18:08:07 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 16:08:07 -0700 Subject: Three phase and IBM In-Reply-To: <20110319124949.5cde22af.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <2B75209B-AD52-45E9-9320-44D36010DFDF@quarterbyte.com> <4D847B92.2010604@brouhaha.com> <20110319124949.5cde22af.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4D853757.7090702@brouhaha.com> Jochen Kunz wrote: > No. If you have a symetrical load like a motor you can wire it Y > without connecting neutral. So the presence of netral is no indication > of Y or D. If the power plug or cable has a neutral lead, you cannot assume that it doesn't need a neutral connection. For instance, a disk pack drive may use three-phase power for a motor, but you can't assume on that basis that a delta connection is suitable. It is not uncommon for there also to be a logic power supply with input wired from a phase to neutral. Note that neutral is NOT the same thing as ground. Neutral is a current-carrying lead. While neutral is connected to ground at one place (usually at the main breaker panel), at ANY other place in the local power network neutral may be at a significantly different potential (voltage) than ground, due to current causing resistive losses. Ground should never carry any significant current; if it does, there is a fault. The allowable current is varies by jurisdiction and type of equipment. In the US, for Class I (electrically insulated with protective earth ground) information technology equipment, the maximum ground leakage current is 0.75 mA for handheld devices, and 3.5 mA for other devices. Because the ground conductor is not supposed to carry any significant current, it should be at nearly the same potential (voltage) everywhere in the local power network. > Y or D depends on the voltage the equipment needs per "leg" Not necessarily. Voltage requirements should be determined by the specifications for the equipment, which ideally are printed on it somewhere. Here in the US, the most common commercial three-phase power configurations are: * 120/208 wye - 120V RMS phase-to-neutral, 208V RMS phase-to-phase * 208 delta - 208V RMS phase-to-phase Notice that the phase-to-phase voltage is identical, so if something is marked as needing 208VAC 3-phase, that tells you NOTHING about whether it needs delta or wye. There are certainly other 3-phase voltages used in the US. Probably the next most common are 277/480 wye or 480 delta. Eric From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Mar 19 18:09:25 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 23:09:25 -0000 Subject: Smoke From PSU Socket Message-ID: <000001cbe68a$b4817750$1d8465f0$@ntlworld.com> I was given a DELNI recently, but it did not seem to work so I unplugged it for later inspection. I just plugged it in now and it went up in smoke, knocking out all the sockets in the house. I have opened it up and the curious thing is that none of the capacitors has or any other component of the PSU is showing any signs of damage, there is scorching only around the socket itself. I am not knowledgeable on PSUs, what does this mean? Thanks Rob From chrise at pobox.com Sat Mar 19 18:30:13 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 18:30:13 -0500 Subject: DEC 872-A power controller docs? Message-ID: <20110319233013.GD18272@n0jcf.net> Are there any documents for a DEC 872-A Power Controller floating around? The 872-A is a 12A, 110V power distribution/control unit that I have in the bottom of my "corporate rack". Specifically I'm interested in what the signaling is on the two, 3-pin Molex jacks labled "DEC Power Control Bus", which presumably is a means to remotely control the power to the devices in the rack via this PDU. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From chrise at pobox.com Sat Mar 19 18:37:08 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 18:37:08 -0500 Subject: RL02 drive tuneup In-Reply-To: References: <20110318111137.GC2281@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20110319233708.GE18272@n0jcf.net> On Friday (03/18/2011 at 08:44PM +0000), Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Some of the other suggestions about blowing the pack off with compressed air, > > etc. might be good advice as well. > > I don;t knowwhere you get the compressed air from, but some compressors > do put a significant amount of oil in the air. The RK05 manuals warn > aobut this, it's it a very bad idea to put oil on th disk or heads :-) Good point Tony. Here, I have an oil-less compressor and if I use tools that require oil, I usually add the oil to the tool or use an inline oiler at the tool itself. I also have seperate air lines that are labeled as "oil" and "not oil"... But not all air compressors and associated accessories are setup this way... that's for sure. > I am told (but have never tried it) that those cans of compressed air > used for cleaning cameras, etc, aregood for blowing the dust off > disk packs. Yes... but I bet you can empty one in short order blowing off both sides of a whole pack. I believe another poster had a complete run down on cleaning packs on this list within the last week or so. He was using a wipe of some sort and alcohol on the media surface too I believe. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Mar 19 19:16:33 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 17:16:33 -0700 Subject: DEC 872-A power controller docs? In-Reply-To: <20110319233013.GD18272@n0jcf.net> References: <20110319233013.GD18272@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4D854761.5030008@bitsavers.org> On 3/19/11 4:30 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > Specifically I'm interested in what the signaling is on the two, 3-pin > Molex jacks labled "DEC Power Control Bus" http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/standards/EL-00123-00_B_DEC_STD_123_Power_Control_Bus_Standard_Mar83.pdf From tiggerlasv at aim.com Sat Mar 19 19:18:45 2011 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 20:18:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: what is a CXY08-M good for? Message-ID: <8CDB4AB828BDCBC-1278-CC67@webmail-m081.sysops.aol.com> Hmmm. What is a CXY08-M good for? Unless you have an s-box enclosure, I'd say it's probably only good for target practice. ;-) Shamefully, I've never been curious enough to attempt to use one on a PDP-11. I jumped right from the DLV11-J's to the Emulex CS02 (quad 16-port w/DMA) and then to the DHQ11's when I moved into a BA123. > (My own is with older products on older machines, but except > for DZ11s and DLJ11Js, I think some of the older multi-serial > interfaces are less easy to find these days). There are folks out there that can't even give away their DHV11's. I always get a chuckle out of seeing folks listing DHV11-M's on e-pay for $50. . . . which reminds me, I should start digging through my inventory, and dumping the CS02's and DHQ's that I have, since all of my I/O is now via a lowly DELQA, and a hardware LAT <> TELNET bridge. T From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Mar 19 19:23:01 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 20:23:01 -0400 Subject: Smoke From PSU Socket References: <000001cbe68a$b4817750$1d8465f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <79F0A66E1A4E4374A67B8814F669D54F@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob Jarratt" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2011 7:09 PM Subject: Smoke From PSU Socket >I was given a DELNI recently, but it did not seem to work so I unplugged it > for later inspection. I just plugged it in now and it went up in smoke, > knocking out all the sockets in the house. I have opened it up and the > curious thing is that none of the capacitors has or any other component of > the PSU is showing any signs of damage, there is scorching only around the > socket itself. > > I am not knowledgeable on PSUs, what does this mean? > > Thanks > > Rob > Socket was wet and shorted out maybe? You need a decent amp draw (dead short) to kick a breaker. Shorting a capacitor would let out smoke and break the connection after it melted away. I just lost a power cord to my mutli voltage laptop brick, the brick is fine but the power cable shorted out at the 3 prong plug (smelly). From tiggerlasv at aim.com Sat Mar 19 19:56:20 2011 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 20:56:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC 872-A power controller docs? Message-ID: <8CDB4B0C2BAE4CD-1278-D15B@webmail-m081.sysops.aol.com> > Are there any documents for a DEC 872-A Power Controller floating around? > The 872-A is a 12A, 110V power distribution/control unit that I have in > the bottom of my "corporate rack". > Specifically I'm interested in what the signaling is on the two, 3-pin > Molex jacks labled "DEC Power Control Bus", which presumably is a means > to remotely control the power to the devices in the rack via this PDU. Bitsavers is always your first, best bet - http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/standards/EL-00123-00_B_DEC_STD_123_Power_Control_Bus_Standard_Mar83.pdf T From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Mar 19 21:07:49 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 02:07:49 +0000 Subject: Manuals / jumper map for NEC FD1165 with G9NYB PCB In-Reply-To: <4D84742C.7060007@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D83C79A.30903@philpem.me.uk>, <4D83A288.23128.1E9AE94@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D840A59.7020508@philpem.me.uk> <4D83B685.2910.237C3F6@cclist.sydex.com> <4D84742C.7060007@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D856175.9060808@philpem.me.uk> Nailed it! Turns out this drive has an onboard data separator. This is enabled by default... Solution: flip the RD jumper from position 2 to position 1, thus disabling the separator. "And that makes me... King of the Lab!" There is still one "quirk" -- the drive seems to AND the Track-0 sensor output with STEP. The DiscFerret picks up the TRACK0 pulse and stops the seek, but because TK0 is inactive when SeekRecalibrate() checks the status register, it thinks the seek failed... I suspect I'll have to add another bit to the status register to deal with this... ugh. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 19 21:43:04 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 19:43:04 -0700 Subject: Manuals / jumper map for NEC FD1165 with G9NYB PCB In-Reply-To: <4D856175.9060808@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D83C79A.30903@philpem.me.uk>, <4D84742C.7060007@philpem.me.uk>, <4D856175.9060808@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D850748.27436.25E28A2@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Mar 2011 at 2:07, Philip Pemberton wrote: > I suspect I'll have to add another bit to the status register to deal > with this... ugh. Back in the old days, you stayed away from Japanese 8" floppy drives because of their weirdness. And NEC was one of the weirdest. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Mar 19 22:05:29 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 03:05:29 +0000 Subject: Manuals / jumper map for NEC FD1165 with G9NYB PCB In-Reply-To: <4D850748.27436.25E28A2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D83C79A.30903@philpem.me.uk>, <4D84742C.7060007@philpem.me.uk>, <4D856175.9060808@philpem.me.uk> <4D850748.27436.25E28A2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D856EF9.4030001@philpem.me.uk> On 20/03/11 02:43, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Back in the old days, you stayed away from Japanese 8" floppy drives > because of their weirdness. And NEC was one of the weirdest. Lovely.... It would have been nice to find this out *before* I bought the drive... :-/ -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 19 22:23:29 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 20:23:29 -0700 Subject: Manuals / jumper map for NEC FD1165 with G9NYB PCB In-Reply-To: <4D856EF9.4030001@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D83C79A.30903@philpem.me.uk>, <4D850748.27436.25E28A2@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D856EF9.4030001@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D8510C1.12393.28327F3@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Mar 2011 at 3:05, Philip Pemberton wrote: > It would have been nice to find this out *before* I bought the > drive... :-/ Occasionally, I get a request for the 3.5" version of the 8" NEC drive that you've got for some PC98-based CNC controller. They're pretty rare on the ground and have all of the weird signals. You can't just take a Teac FD235HG and swap one in. They're not cheap when you find them. --Chuck From useddec at gmail.com Sun Mar 20 00:27:17 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 00:27:17 -0500 Subject: DEC and compatable items In-Reply-To: <002701cbe153$603e1e50$20ba5af0$@ntlworld.com> References: <002701cbe153$603e1e50$20ba5af0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Hi Rob, I have a CQD200/TM with a MTI lable on it. Also, a few few RD53 and 54 drives, condiction unknown, that may or may not have DEC lables on them. I have a large number of DEC and compatable boards (including Emulex and Dilog) if there is anything else you need. Thanks, Paul On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 1:50 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I would be interested in the CQD-220/TMS and any cables it might need > (other > than standard SCSI cables). Probably not the table top box though as I > suspect shipping that to the UK would be expensive. I don't suppose you > have > any RD53 (Micropolis 1325 or 1335) or RD54 disks (Maxtor XT-2190) by any > chance? > > Regards > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Anderson > > Sent: 13 March 2011 05:08 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: DEC and compatable items > > > > On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 10:11 PM, Paul Anderson > > wrote: > > > > > I'm trying to make a pathway into a storage unit prior to emptying it. > > > The following are a list of items that were in the way and I don't > > > think I'll need. If you have any questions or interest, please feel > > > free to contact me off list. > > > > > > BA11-NC box has 11/23 sticker on it. No black case or white front > > > panel, but includes the switch panel. Was working, but selling as is. > > > This it the box, backplane, H786 power supply and switch panel only. I > > > have boards here, and can configure a set to your specs if requested. > > > > > > EECO INC 2001-4 paper tape reader, looks like a RS232 interface. No > > > idea of the history or condiction. > > > > > > Rokke Data table top box containing ps and 2- Seagate 41650N drives. > > > Can sell with or without CQD-220/TMS interface and cables. > > > Was working, good condicition. > > > > > > Seagate 94196-766, condiction unk. > > > > > > HP94758E in sealed static bag from vendor, but sitting here for a few > > > years. > > > > > > several Micropolis 1355 drives,pulled from working systems, but > > > sitting for a while-possibly stuck now? > > > > > > Thanks, Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > opps forgot Amdek model video 300 moniror, working, in original box > > > with manual. > > > > > > > 5th generation Logical Connection with ps and cables > > > > located in Illinois, 61853 > > From useddec at gmail.com Sun Mar 20 00:33:29 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 00:33:29 -0500 Subject: DEC and compatable items In-Reply-To: References: <002701cbe153$603e1e50$20ba5af0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Sorry everyone, I meant to send this directly to Rob off list On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 at 12:27 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > Hi Rob, > > I have a CQD200/TM with a MTI lable on it. Also, a few few RD53 and 54 > drives, condiction unknown, that may or may not have DEC lables on them. > > I have a large number of DEC and compatable boards (including Emulex and > Dilog) if there is anything else you need. > > Thanks, Paul > > On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 1:50 AM, Rob Jarratt < > robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote: > >> I would be interested in the CQD-220/TMS and any cables it might need >> (other >> than standard SCSI cables). Probably not the table top box though as I >> suspect shipping that to the UK would be expensive. I don't suppose you >> have >> any RD53 (Micropolis 1325 or 1335) or RD54 disks (Maxtor XT-2190) by any >> chance? >> >> Regards >> >> Rob >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Anderson >> > Sent: 13 March 2011 05:08 >> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> > Subject: Re: DEC and compatable items >> > >> > On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 10:11 PM, Paul Anderson >> > wrote: >> > >> > > I'm trying to make a pathway into a storage unit prior to emptying it. >> > > The following are a list of items that were in the way and I don't >> > > think I'll need. If you have any questions or interest, please feel >> > > free to contact me off list. >> > > >> > > BA11-NC box has 11/23 sticker on it. No black case or white front >> > > panel, but includes the switch panel. Was working, but selling as is. >> > > This it the box, backplane, H786 power supply and switch panel only. I >> > > have boards here, and can configure a set to your specs if requested. >> > > >> > > EECO INC 2001-4 paper tape reader, looks like a RS232 interface. No >> > > idea of the history or condiction. >> > > >> > > Rokke Data table top box containing ps and 2- Seagate 41650N drives. >> > > Can sell with or without CQD-220/TMS interface and cables. >> > > Was working, good condicition. >> > > >> > > Seagate 94196-766, condiction unk. >> > > >> > > HP94758E in sealed static bag from vendor, but sitting here for a few >> > > years. >> > > >> > > several Micropolis 1355 drives,pulled from working systems, but >> > > sitting for a while-possibly stuck now? >> > > >> > > Thanks, Paul >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > > opps forgot Amdek model video 300 moniror, working, in original box >> > > with manual. >> > > >> > >> > 5th generation Logical Connection with ps and cables >> > >> > located in Illinois, 61853 >> >> > From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Mar 20 02:58:24 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 08:58:24 +0100 Subject: Three phase and IBM In-Reply-To: <4D853757.7090702@brouhaha.com> References: <2B75209B-AD52-45E9-9320-44D36010DFDF@quarterbyte.com> <4D847B92.2010604@brouhaha.com> <20110319124949.5cde22af.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4D853757.7090702@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20110320085824.575377fd.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 19 Mar 2011 16:08:07 -0700 Eric Smith wrote: > Jochen Kunz wrote: > > No. If you have a symetrical load like a motor you can wire it Y > > without connecting neutral. So the presence of netral is no indication > > of Y or D. > If the power plug or cable has a neutral lead, you cannot assume that it > doesn't need a neutral connection. That is exactely what I wrote: It depends on the equipment if it needs netral or not. The cable may have a neutral, but the equipment may not need it. > Note that neutral is NOT the same thing as ground. I am verry aware of this. I was an electrician in a former live... :-) > Here in the US, the most common commercial three-phase power > configurations are: > > * 120/208 wye - 120V RMS phase-to-neutral, 208V RMS phase-to-phase > * 208 delta - 208V RMS phase-to-phase Ahhh, I forgot about the insanity of US three phase distribution. This caused the confusion on my end of the transformer. ;-) In Germany, well, most if not all of Europe, the entire power grid is three phase. The power that gets distributed to a house is always three phase 230 / 400 V in Y configuration. Single phase loads like ordinary power outlets are wired from one phase to neutral. The single phase circuits in a house (apartment, flat, ...) are spreed across all phases to spreed load. Biger loads like electric stoves, water heaters, big motors, ... are allways three phase. So we have three phase in every household. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Mar 20 03:37:57 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 01:37:57 -0700 Subject: Three phase and IBM In-Reply-To: <20110320085824.575377fd.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <2B75209B-AD52-45E9-9320-44D36010DFDF@quarterbyte.com> <4D847B92.2010604@brouhaha.com> <20110319124949.5cde22af.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4D853757.7090702@brouhaha.com> <20110320085824.575377fd.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4D85BCE5.7080302@brouhaha.com> Jochen Kunz wrote: > It depends on the equipment if it needs > netral or not. The cable may have a neutral, but the equipment may not > need it. Here in the US, I have yet to see a piece of equipment with a cable or plug with a neutral lead, that doesn't actually need it. That's why I suggested that if the cable or plug has a neutral lead, you should use three-phase-wye. I wouldn't necessarily even trust the schematics of a device. It's all too common for the published schematics to not actually match the equipment. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Mar 20 03:43:58 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 01:43:58 -0700 Subject: Three phase and IBM In-Reply-To: <20110320085824.575377fd.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <2B75209B-AD52-45E9-9320-44D36010DFDF@quarterbyte.com> <4D847B92.2010604@brouhaha.com> <20110319124949.5cde22af.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4D853757.7090702@brouhaha.com> <20110320085824.575377fd.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4D85BE4E.3010100@brouhaha.com> Jochen Kunz wrote: > In Germany, well, most if not all of Europe, the entire power grid is > three phase. The power that gets distributed to a house is always three > phase 230 / 400 V in Y configuration. Single phase loads like ordinary > power outlets are wired from one phase to neutral. The single phase > circuits in a house (apartment, flat, ...) are spreed across all phases > to spreed load. Biger loads like electric stoves, water heaters, big > motors, ... are allways three phase. So we have three phase in every > household. That seems far more sensible than the 120/240V "split-phase" wiring used in residential and light business here in the US. I assume that we use split-phase because putting a single-phase transformer on the power pole is less expensive than a three-phase transformer. It's also stupid that we use such a low voltage; it means that only a few outlets in a US house are wired for 240V, generally just the stove/range, clothes dryer, central water heater, and furnace. (Where available, people use natural gas for those instead, as it costs less.) Electric kettles, room heaters, etc. have to run on 120V at 15A or less, so they are very slow. Eric From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Mar 20 03:55:27 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 08:55:27 -0000 Subject: Smoke From PSU Socket In-Reply-To: <79F0A66E1A4E4374A67B8814F669D54F@dell8300> References: <000001cbe68a$b4817750$1d8465f0$@ntlworld.com> <79F0A66E1A4E4374A67B8814F669D54F@dell8300> Message-ID: <001001cbe6dc$906801c0$b1380540$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Teo Zenios > Sent: 20 March 2011 00:23 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Smoke From PSU Socket > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rob Jarratt" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2011 7:09 PM > Subject: Smoke From PSU Socket > > > >I was given a DELNI recently, but it did not seem to work so I unplugged it > > for later inspection. I just plugged it in now and it went up in smoke, > > knocking out all the sockets in the house. I have opened it up and the > > curious thing is that none of the capacitors has or any other component of > > the PSU is showing any signs of damage, there is scorching only around > the > > socket itself. > > > > I am not knowledgeable on PSUs, what does this mean? > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > > > > Socket was wet and shorted out maybe? You need a decent amp draw (dead > short) to kick a breaker. Shorting a capacitor would let out smoke and break > the connection after it melted away. > > > I just lost a power cord to my mutli voltage laptop brick, the brick is fine > but the power cable shorted out at the 3 prong plug (smelly). It is unlikely that there was anything wet, but I suppose I can't exclude it. I am not sure what to do now. I don't know the condition of the power cord now, I am not sure whether to try using it on something else to see if it is OK, my multimeter shows no shorts and no breaks in the wires so perhaps it is still good. Also I don't know why the socket shorted, if it *was* wet then perhaps I could plug it in again, but I am very doubtful that this would be a good idea. Should I just be thinking of replacing the socket? Regards Rob From philip at axeside.co.uk Sat Mar 19 13:35:35 2011 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 18:35:35 +0000 Subject: Three phase and IBM In-Reply-To: <20110319124949.5cde22af.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <2B75209B-AD52-45E9-9320-44D36010DFDF@quarterbyte.com> <4D847B92.2010604@brouhaha.com> <20110319124949.5cde22af.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4D84F777.4090502@axeside.co.uk> On 19/03/2011 11:49, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Sat, 19 Mar 2011 02:46:58 -0700 > Eric Smith wrote: > >> Check the power plug or cable. If the equipment has a neutral (not >> ground!) lead, it needs wye. Otherwise it needs delta. > No. If you have a symetrical load like a motor you can wire it Y > without connecting neutral. So the presence of netral is no indication > of Y or D. Y or D depends on the voltage the equipment needs per "leg" > and the voltage the grid delivers. Remember voltage phase to phase is > sqrt(3) times voltage phase to neutral. I beg to differ. Y or D and voltage are two separate issues, and you probably need to get both right. Three-phase motors seldom bring out the star point even if they are Y connected, and will run from a Y or D supply of the right voltage impartially. Other stuff (basically, electronics) may be connected between two phases, or it may be connected between a phase and neutral. If the latter, it must by Y; otherwise it doesn't matter. The voltage must still be right either way. The electronics could even be connected between a phase and a "neutral" other than the star point (see below). So beware! Finally, I have come across kit (not a computer, I admit) that ran off 415V three phase, with the controls supplied by a little 415/110V transformer. In the UK, voltage is seldom an issue - almost all three-phase stuff is 400V or 415V, whether it's Y or D. Continental Europe goes in for 690V as well, and this is starting to appear over here for largish motors, which can be nasty. But I wouldn't expect to find that on anything as old or small as a 3880. In the US, all sorts of strange voltages and connections were used for three-phase supplies. Even the internet probably doesn't have a complete list! 208V was common, usually Y (so that phase to neutral would be 120V). I think 240V Delta was used, with a centre tap on one of the windings providing a neutral, so you got your 120V from either of the two phases on that winding. (I don't know whether it was normal to ground the neutral, but be aware that it was NOT the star point!) ISTR seeing 277V somewhere as well. This would be 160V phase to earth - I have no idea what, if anything, uses that! This means, inter alia, even a five-core mains cable could be a delta - three phases, centre tap of one winding, and ground - with no star point. My advice to you is find all the rating plates you can on the equipment, both outside and under the cover panels, and see if they agree on voltage and phasing. Rating plates on individual motors may help. Once you have done this, and wired up the appropriate supply, blip the power on very briefly to make sure the motors spin the right way. If they don't, swap two phases around. (Choose two phases symmetrically placed about the neutral if the neutral is not the star point.) Then, and only then, do a smoke test. I am not sure about equipment of that date, much less IBM equipment of that date, but I'd guess that undervoltage is less likely to be harmful than overvoltage. (Some switch mode power supplies may draw too much current if the voltage is low, and kill themselves that way.) So err on the side of lower voltage. HTH, Philip. From CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie Sat Mar 19 13:57:40 2011 From: CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 18:57:40 +0000 (WET) Subject: Three phase and IBM Message-ID: <01NZ3V4X0O36000R0S@beyondthepale.ie> > >> Check the power plug or cable. If the equipment has a neutral (not >> ground!) lead, it needs wye. Otherwise it needs delta. >No. If you have a symetrical load like a motor you can wire it Y >without connecting neutral. So the presence of netral is no indication >of Y or D. Y or D depends on the voltage the equipment needs per "leg" >and the voltage the grid delivers. Remember voltage phase to phase is >sqrt(3) times voltage phase to neutral. > Without documentation indicating that the equipment presents a balanced load, it should not be assumed that it will. If the equipment power lead has a neutral then it is probably not a completely balanced load and the neutral will probably need to be connected. The consequences of not connecting the neutral could be excessive voltages getting applied to some parts and reduced voltages getting applied to other parts of the equipment. This is not good. If the equipment does always present a balanced load, it may allow the option of connecting it in wye (star) or delta format and the supply voltage required would be different in each case. To clarify the voltage specification, there are two different ways of specifying the voltage in a three phase system. The "phase voltage" is the voltage between any one of the three live conductors and the neutral conductor. The "line voltage" is the voltage between any two of the three live conductors. The line voltage is sqrt(3) times higher than the phase voltage. The line voltage provided by the supply should match the line voltage required by the equipment. The same applies to the phase voltage, although if one matches, the other will also. Phase voltage doesn't really have a lot of meaning for a system without a neutral and such a system should be specified by line voltage only. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From bdamer at digitalspace.com Sat Mar 19 19:27:36 2011 From: bdamer at digitalspace.com (Bruce Damer) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 17:27:36 -0700 Subject: Anyone have a big iMac collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201103200027.p2K0RdNR074958@billY.EZWIND.NET> Hi folks, does anyone in the Bay Area or California have a big "multi color" iMac G3 collection (from late 1990s-2001 or so)? A guy is asking the Digibarn about this but all we have is one Bondi Blue model. bruce From philip at axeside.co.uk Sun Mar 20 04:27:02 2011 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 09:27:02 +0000 Subject: Three phase and IBM In-Reply-To: <4D853757.7090702@brouhaha.com> References: <2B75209B-AD52-45E9-9320-44D36010DFDF@quarterbyte.com> <4D847B92.2010604@brouhaha.com> <20110319124949.5cde22af.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4D853757.7090702@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4D85C866.2040601@axeside.co.uk> Eric said: > There are certainly other 3-phase voltages used in the US. Probably the > next most common are 277/480 wye or 480 delta. Oh, I see. Thanks, Eric! I was wondering what 277V was, but I had always assumed it was the line voltage, since that is what usually gets quoted. FWIW in rural parts of the UK, it is common to take just two phases of the HV (11kV) network on some spurs. You then get a single phase transformer from 11kV to 240V. For larger loads, 11kV/480V used to be common, with a centre tap to earth like the US 240V stuff, but this is dying out. Jochen said (in a post I didn't get): > In Germany, well, most if not all of Europe, the entire power grid > is three phase. The power that gets distributed to a house is always > three phase 230 / 400 V in Y configuration. Single phase loads like > ordinary power outlets are wired from one phase to neutral. The > single phase circuits in a house (apartment, flat, ...) are spreed > across all phases to spreed load. Biger loads like electric stoves, > water heaters, big motors, ... are allways three phase. So we have > three phase in every household. In the UK, single family houses are more common than on the continent. Except in rural areas (see above), three phases are run down the street, but each house gets a single phase supply from one phase and neutral. Engineers who have worked on LV installations tell me that no matter how carefully you specify the pattern of which house connects to which phase, the installers will connect to the phase that is easiest to get at... Even large electric cookers and water heaters are single phase here. Well, water heaters above 10kW usually need two phases, but those are rare. Blocks of flats, and my parents' house, have three-phase supplies, but each flat generally gets just one of the phases and the neutral, so that no-one is exposed to 415V. (My parents have electric storage heaters, and when these come on at night, the house draws 50A from each phase. But apart from the heaters, everything in the house is on the A phase, and everything in the annexe is on the B phase.) Philip. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Mar 20 04:57:45 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 02:57:45 -0700 Subject: Three phase and IBM In-Reply-To: <4D84F777.4090502@axeside.co.uk> References: <2B75209B-AD52-45E9-9320-44D36010DFDF@quarterbyte.com> <4D847B92.2010604@brouhaha.com> <20110319124949.5cde22af.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4D84F777.4090502@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <4D85CF99.6040201@brouhaha.com> Philip Belben wrote: > ISTR seeing 277V somewhere as well. This would be 160V phase to earth > - I have no idea what, if anything, uses that! I suppose there could be such a thing, but here in the US, when people talk about 277V it is usually phase-to-neutral, with 480V phase-to-phase. This is common in industrial use, both for heavy equipment and 277V lighting (fluorescent, sodium, or metal halide). Eric From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Mar 20 05:06:49 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 11:06:49 +0100 Subject: Three phase and IBM In-Reply-To: <4D85BCE5.7080302@brouhaha.com> References: <2B75209B-AD52-45E9-9320-44D36010DFDF@quarterbyte.com> <4D847B92.2010604@brouhaha.com> <20110319124949.5cde22af.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4D853757.7090702@brouhaha.com> <20110320085824.575377fd.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4D85BCE5.7080302@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20110320110649.c5525c41.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 01:37:57 -0700 Eric Smith wrote: > Here in the US, I have yet to see a piece of equipment with a cable or > plug with a neutral lead, that doesn't actually need it. This is the other confusing thing that I forgot: There seem to be a lot of different plugs for three phase used in the US. In Europe we have the red five prong "CEE" plugs (actually IEC 60309 / DIN EN 60309) for three phase. So there is allways neutral present at the socket. Though, it is allowed to use a four leed cable (3P + PE) for equipment that needs no neutral. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From chrise at pobox.com Sun Mar 20 06:06:10 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 06:06:10 -0500 Subject: DEC 872-A power controller docs? In-Reply-To: <4D854761.5030008@bitsavers.org> References: <20110319233013.GD18272@n0jcf.net> <4D854761.5030008@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20110320110610.GG2281@n0jcf.net> On Saturday (03/19/2011 at 05:16PM -0700), Al Kossow wrote: > On 3/19/11 4:30 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > >Specifically I'm interested in what the signaling is on the two, 3-pin > >Molex jacks labled "DEC Power Control Bus" > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/standards/EL-00123-00_B_DEC_STD_123_Power_Control_Bus_Standard_Mar83.pdf ah ha! Thank you Al. Exactly what I need. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From chrise at pobox.com Sun Mar 20 06:08:23 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 06:08:23 -0500 Subject: DEC 872-A power controller docs? In-Reply-To: <8CDB4B0C2BAE4CD-1278-D15B@webmail-m081.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CDB4B0C2BAE4CD-1278-D15B@webmail-m081.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <20110320110822.GH2281@n0jcf.net> On Saturday (03/19/2011 at 08:56PM -0400), tiggerlasv at aim.com wrote: > > > > Are there any documents for a DEC 872-A Power Controller floating around? > > > The 872-A is a 12A, 110V power distribution/control unit that I have in > > the bottom of my "corporate rack". > > > Specifically I'm interested in what the signaling is on the two, 3-pin > > Molex jacks labled "DEC Power Control Bus", which presumably is a means > > to remotely control the power to the devices in the rack via this PDU. > > > Bitsavers is always your first, best bet - > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/standards/EL-00123-00_B_DEC_STD_123_Power_Control_Bus_Standard_Mar83.pdf Absolutely... but, I failed to consider looking in the "standards" directory. I'd already been through every other directory ;-) Chris -- Chris Elmquist From p.tomasik at uj.edu.pl Sun Mar 20 07:17:25 2011 From: p.tomasik at uj.edu.pl (=?UTF-8?B?UHJ6ZW15c8WCYXcgVG9tYXNpaw==?=) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 13:17:25 +0100 Subject: Radio Shack Science Fair manuals Message-ID: <4D85F055.60501@uj.edu.pl> Hi, I have found your message from 2006 y. about science fair 200-in-one manual. cat no 28-249 I have found just this model in the basement and i like to give it to my children. however it has no manual. I will be grateful if you could send me an electronic copy of your manual. I will be able to send you scans of Marklin (germany) catalogue of Trains 00 and 0 gauge and some model cars from 1938 y. if you wish. Best regards Przemek -- dr hab. med. Przemys?aw Tomasik Zak?ad Biochemii Klinicznej Polsko-Ameryka?ski Instytut Pediatrii Uniwersytet Jagiello?ski Collegium Medicum ul. Wielicka 265 30-663 Krak?w, Polska From tshoppa at wmata.com Sun Mar 20 08:25:18 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 09:25:18 -0400 Subject: Smoke From PSU Socket Message-ID: > Also I don't know why the socket shorted, if it *was* wet then perhaps I > could plug it in again, but I am very doubtful that this would be a good > idea. Should I just be thinking of replacing the socket? Many "IEC sockets" are more than just sockets, and incorporate EMI suppression components as well. The euphemism becomes "power entry module" instead of "socket". The EMI suppression components (especially capacitors) in them are specced for AC line voltage applications and UL rated such, but they still let out their magic smoke every so often :-). Even if it's just a socket, some debris can get in there during storage, you plug it in, the debris trips a fuse and vaporizes, and all you're left with is a charred socket. Tim. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Mar 20 09:47:31 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 10:47:31 -0400 Subject: Three phase and IBM In-Reply-To: <4D84F777.4090502@axeside.co.uk> References: <2B75209B-AD52-45E9-9320-44D36010DFDF@quarterbyte.com> <4D847B92.2010604@brouhaha.com> <20110319124949.5cde22af.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4D84F777.4090502@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: > I am not sure about equipment of that date, much less IBM equipment of that > date, but I'd guess that undervoltage is less likely to be harmful than > overvoltage. ?(Some switch mode power supplies may draw too much current if > the voltage is low, and kill themselves that way.) ?So err on the side of > lower voltage. Basically, just about any configuration of wires that are sticking out of the wall can be hooked up to these controllers, and if they do not like what they are getting, they will not power up ("power check" in IBM talk). Just about everything is checked before any of the brains get any power. Not that one should be careless here, but IBM mainframe equipment does offer a bit of comfort when it comes to the smoke test. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 20 10:32:31 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 11:32:31 -0400 Subject: Three phase and IBM In-Reply-To: <20110320085824.575377fd.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <2B75209B-AD52-45E9-9320-44D36010DFDF@quarterbyte.com> <4D847B92.2010604@brouhaha.com> <20110319124949.5cde22af.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4D853757.7090702@brouhaha.com> <20110320085824.575377fd.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4D861E0F.4010905@neurotica.com> On 3/20/11 3:58 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > In Germany, well, most if not all of Europe, the entire power grid is > three phase. The power that gets distributed to a house is always three > phase 230 / 400 V in Y configuration. Single phase loads like ordinary > power outlets are wired from one phase to neutral. The single phase > circuits in a house (apartment, flat, ...) are spreed across all phases > to spreed load. Biger loads like electric stoves, water heaters, big > motors, ... are allways three phase. So we have three phase in every > household. I am so jealous. :) (though there might be three-phase power in my near future!) So THAT'S why people running big VAXen is so common over there. (well, that and most of us Americans are sitting around drooling in front of the TV instead of doing something useful) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 20 12:33:47 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 13:33:47 -0400 Subject: Ebay fee change as of 4/1 In-Reply-To: <839732.1931.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <839732.1931.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D863A7B.10005@neurotica.com> On 3/16/11 4:49 PM, Chris M wrote: > Come on, get a life, and be men (and women). Take a check. Cut out > the middlemen. I'm hopping mad over comments like this. And reminds > me I need to take my little pressure pill. Wow, really? Someone advocating the use of checks, the least-secure payment method ever devised? They're on their way out, thank heaven. Many UK banks are checkless now, according to my UK friends. I'm guessing the USA will finally be devoid of checks entirely within the next 10-15 yearse. Many stores don't take them anymore I got sick of being burned by rubber checks years ago; I haven't taken a check since the late 1990s. Many stores don't take them. I've not actually written one, for any reason, in probably eight years. I feel like someone just voiced curiosity as to why their new Core2Duo laptop doesn't have core memory. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Mar 20 13:14:22 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 19:14:22 +0100 Subject: Smoke From PSU Socket In-Reply-To: <000001cbe68a$b4817750$1d8465f0$@ntlworld.com> References: <000001cbe68a$b4817750$1d8465f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20110320191422.11db5ff6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 19 Mar 2011 23:09:25 -0000 "Rob Jarratt" wrote: > there is scorching only around the socket itself Is there an EMI filter build into the socket...? -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Mar 20 14:15:00 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 11:15:00 -0800 Subject: Three phase and IBM In-Reply-To: <4D85BE4E.3010100@brouhaha.com> References: <2B75209B-AD52-45E9-9320-44D36010DFDF@quarterbyte.com> <4D847B92.2010604@brouhaha.com> <20110319124949.5cde22af.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4D853757.7090702@brouhaha.com> <20110320085824.575377fd.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4D85BE4E.3010100@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 2011 Mar 20, at 12:43 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > > That seems far more sensible than the 120/240V "split-phase" wiring > used in residential and light business here in the US. I assume that > we use split-phase because putting a single-phase transformer on the > power pole is less expensive than a three-phase transformer. It's > also stupid that we use such a low voltage; it means that only a few > outlets in a US house are wired for 240V, generally just the > stove/range, clothes dryer, central water heater, and furnace. (Where > available, people use natural gas for those instead, as it costs > less.) Electric kettles, room heaters, etc. have to run on 120V at > 15A or less, so they are very slow. I suspect our 120/240V (also 110V,115V,117V) split-phase distribution is a legacy of the "War of the Currents" between Tesla/Westinghouse and Edison. When Westinghouse entered they presumably had some interest in compatibility for end-users and existing loads with Edison's early distribution system, which was 3-wire and conceptually similar: +110, -110V & neutral. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 20 14:40:00 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 19:40:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Smoke From PSU Socket In-Reply-To: <000001cbe68a$b4817750$1d8465f0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Mar 19, 11 11:09:25 pm Message-ID: > > I was given a DELNI recently, but it did not seem to work so I unplugged it > for later inspection. I just plugged it in now and it went up in smoke, > knocking out all the sockets in the house. I have opened it up and the Presumably this tripped a main circuit breaker. Was it an over-current breaker or an earth leakage device (GFI?)? > curious thing is that none of the capacitors has or any other component of > the PSU is showing any signs of damage, there is scorching only around the > socket itself. Did any fiuse in the deviec blow? I would remove and test all of them. Normally a catastrophic failure in a power supply will blow at least one fuse (after blowing numerous expenisve transistors :-))` Is the mains input sokcet a simple connefotr, or is it the mains filter as well? The latter type will have a metal can on the back side, sometimers with a scheamtic of the inductors and capacitors inside printed on it. If the connector does contain a main filter, it's entirely possible one of the capacitors decided to short at the wrong moment. Another possiblilty is leakeage on the socket itself. Dampness might cause this (particularly if it was a GFI that tripped, it doesn't take much current to do that). Or a conductive trace across the plastic of the socekt (known as 'tracking'), caused by arcing or somethign like that. Obviosuly you need to replace the socket. If it was my devices, I would check all the sceicondcutors and low-value resistors on the primary side of the PSU to see if I could find a problem there. I'd also check the main filter components (f not part of the socket) and do a high-voltage insulation text. -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Mar 20 14:44:35 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 13:44:35 -0600 Subject: Ebay fee change as of 4/1 In-Reply-To: <4D863A7B.10005@neurotica.com> References: <839732.1931.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4D863A7B.10005@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D865923.1040608@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/20/2011 11:33 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Wow, really? Someone advocating the use of checks, the least-secure > payment method ever devised? They're on their way out, thank heaven. > Many UK banks are checkless now, according to my UK friends. I'm > guessing the USA will finally be devoid of checks entirely within the > next 10-15 yearse. Many stores don't take them anymore I got sick of > being burned by rubber checks years ago; I haven't taken a check since > the late 1990s. Many stores don't take them. I've not actually written > one, for any reason, in probably eight years. I got a COD package a few days ago. They took debit or check, but *not* cash! > I feel like someone just voiced curiosity as to why their new Core2Duo > laptop doesn't have core memory. I guess it all must be virtual, I can find what real memory is used in any of the modern computers. That drive light keeps flashing even when I just press the keys writing this. > -Dave > Ben. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 20 14:33:30 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 19:33:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Three phase and IBM In-Reply-To: <4D853757.7090702@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Mar 19, 11 04:08:07 pm Message-ID: > Ground should never carry any significant current; if it does, there is > a fault. The allowable current is varies by jurisdiction and type of Some mains filters have capacitors from the current-carrying conductors to ground. In this case there may well be an current in the earth wire even when there is no fault. > equipment. In the US, for Class I (electrically insulated with > protective earth ground) information technology equipment, the maximum > ground leakage current is 0.75 mA for handheld devices, and 3.5 mA for > other devices. I made a similar comment a couple of months back, and somebody claimed that the RCDs (earyh leakage trips, ELCBs, GFIs, whatever you call them) to their computer room were set to trip at 100A. I queried this at the time, but was assured such things were not uncommon. I am still a little worried. > > Because the ground conductor is not supposed to carry any significant > current, it should be at nearly the same potential (voltage) everywhere > in the local power network. > > > Y or D depends on the voltage the equipment needs per "leg" > > Not necessarily. Voltage requirements should be determined by the > specifications for the equipment, which ideally are printed on it somewhere. Indeed, you have have start (Wye) or delta 3 phase supplies at any voltage you like. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 20 14:44:44 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 19:44:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DEC 872-A power controller docs? In-Reply-To: <20110319233013.GD18272@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Mar 19, 11 06:30:13 pm Message-ID: > > Are there any documents for a DEC 872-A Power Controller floating around? > > The 872-A is a 12A, 110V power distribution/control unit that I have in > the bottom of my "corporate rack". > > Specifically I'm interested in what the signaling is on the two, 3-pin > Molex jacks labled "DEC Power Control Bus", which presumably is a means > to remotely control the power to the devices in the rack via this PDU. All power cotnollers after a certain date (early 1970s, IIRC) use the same 'power control bus', os the manual and/or printset for any of them would be a good start. >From what I rememebr, the 3 pins are ground, ground-for-on, and ground-for off, 'off' taking priority over 'on' if both are grouded. There is no lartching in the power controllers. You interconnect all the power controllrs in the system with straight-through cables. The power swtich on the CPU box is connected betweem the ground and ground-fro-on wires, so that turning this on acrviates all the controllers and powers up everythjing. Over-temperature swtiches and the like are connected betweem ground and ground-for-off, so thatr if any device overheats, the whole system shuts down. Thes signals are not TTL level. They may be up to 24V, nd you may have to sink enough currnet to operate a reed relay. Just in case you want to design your own swithcing units... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 20 14:47:21 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 19:47:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RL02 drive tuneup In-Reply-To: <20110319233708.GE18272@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Mar 19, 11 06:37:08 pm Message-ID: > > I don;t knowwhere you get the compressed air from, but some compressors > > do put a significant amount of oil in the air. The RK05 manuals warn > > aobut this, it's it a very bad idea to put oil on th disk or heads :-) > > Good point Tony. Here, I have an oil-less compressor and if I use > tools that require oil, I usually add the oil to the tool or use an > inline oiler at the tool itself. I also have seperate air lines that > are labeled as "oil" and "not oil"... But not all air compressors and > associated accessories are setup this way... that's for sure. I am also told that some 'oil-less compessors' are not that good and still ahve some oil in the output. It may not matter for many applicaitons, but it does for this. > > > I am told (but have never tried it) that those cans of compressed air > > used for cleaning cameras, etc, aregood for blowing the dust off > > disk packs. > > Yes... but I bet you can empty one in short order blowing off both sides > of a whole pack. Alas, yes... and they're not cheap. The RK05 manual tells you taht you can blow dry dust off my both, but 'do not spit on the disk'. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 20 15:02:21 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 16:02:21 -0400 Subject: Ebay fee change as of 4/1 In-Reply-To: <4D865923.1040608@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <839732.1931.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4D863A7B.10005@neurotica.com> <4D865923.1040608@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4D865D4D.9070603@neurotica.com> On 3/20/11 3:44 PM, ben wrote: > That drive light keeps flashing even when I just press > the keys writing this. Wow. I'd be awfully concerned if my computers did that. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 20 15:17:22 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 20:17:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Three phase and IBM In-Reply-To: <20110320110649.c5525c41.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Mar 20, 11 11:06:49 am Message-ID: > > Here in the US, I have yet to see a piece of equipment with a cable or > > plug with a neutral lead, that doesn't actually need it. > This is the other confusing thing that I forgot: There seem to be a lot > of different plugs for three phase used in the US. In Europe we have > the red five prong "CEE" plugs (actually IEC 60309 / DIN EN 60309) for I believe there is a 4 pin version of that connector. I am pretty sure I have a couple somwhere. Earth and 3 phases (Delta), of course. It's still red (incidating 415V or thereabouts). Whether it is commonly used is another matter... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 20 15:21:16 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 20:21:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Three phase and IBM In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Mar 20, 11 10:47:31 am Message-ID: > > > I am not sure about equipment of that date, much less IBM equipment of th= > at > > date, but I'd guess that undervoltage is less likely to be harmful than > > overvoltage. =A0(Some switch mode power supplies may draw too much curren= > t if > > the voltage is low, and kill themselves that way.) =A0So err on the side = > of > > lower voltage. > > Basically, just about any configuration of wires that are sticking out > of the wall can be hooked up to these controllers, and if they do not > like what they are getting, they will not power up ("power check" in > IBM talk). Just about everything is checked before any of the brains > get any power. I suspect if you conencted one of the phase wires to the protective ground terminal the results coule be unpleasant.... > > Not that one should be careless here, but IBM mainframe equipment does > offer a bit of comfort when it comes to the smoke test. Sure, but as you imply, you shouldn't rely on safety devices to get you out of trouble. In other words, I';d want to make darn sure I'd got thw wires on the rgith termianls before I applied power, rather tan assuming it will power-check if I get them wrong. -tony From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Mar 20 15:45:15 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 21:45:15 +0100 Subject: Three phase and IBM In-Reply-To: References: <20110320110649.c5525c41.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20110320214515.2e003e86.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 20:17:22 +0000 (GMT) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > I believe there is a 4 pin version of that connector. There are several variants of this connector. A blue version with one phase, neutral and ground is quite common for caravans. > Whether it is commonly used is another matter... That's it. At least in germany the red five prong 6h type CEE plug is the de facto standard for three phase power. There are still some Perilex plugs, but they become extinct. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 20 15:36:02 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 20:36:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP150 Touchscreen again Message-ID: A couple of months ago I asked about diagnosing problems with the TOuchscreen board in an HP150. Well, I took some time off that project [1] but finally got back to it. I decided in the end to make a text unit that would plug into the touchscreen PCB, produce the clock signal, accept the sync and data signals and display the status of the 35 beams on LEDs. [1] Sort-of classic computer related. I've been writing a set of articles for HPCC on how to fix HP9800 machines. Being me, I built it from TTL (actually HC and HCT parts). It only took me a couple of afternoons do design and build it. It starts with a 4MHz master clock, divided down with a couple of '393 counters. A '30 adn '138 produce a paair of spaced clcok pulses from this, a '02 combines one ofthes with the sync signal from the tocuhscreen. These are all latched in a '175 to procude 3 clocks -- the clock to the touchscreen PCB, a clock to sample the data from the touchscreen PCB and an end-of-scan pulse to latch the received data and send it to the LEDs. The data is shifted into '4094 shift registers/latches whihc feed a couple of rows of LEDs. The powrr supply stats as 12V from my bench supply. That feedsthe +ve input of the touchscreen. A 7805 powes the logic and LEds inthe test box. And a 7660A provides the -12V supply for the tocuhscreen PCB. Anyway, after connecting it to the defective tocuhscreen PCB, I found that one of the beams appeared to be blocked all the time. Blocking other beams got the appropriate response from the test box, so I was pretty sure the logic was all working properly. Since I knew which beam was malfunctioning, I tested its IR LED in-circuit with an ohmmeter (system powered down, of course, It read differnetly from the others either side of it, so I desoldered it and tested it out of circuit. It's open. So the guy who told me that the emitter (LED) was the most likely failure was right. Now all I need to do is find a replacement. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 20 15:52:20 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 20:52:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Three phase and IBM In-Reply-To: <20110320214515.2e003e86.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Mar 20, 11 09:45:15 pm Message-ID: > > On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 20:17:22 +0000 (GMT) > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > I believe there is a 4 pin version of that connector. > There are several variants of this connector. A blue version with one > phase, neutral and ground is quite common for caravans. there are many, many, versions in serveal colours. This is what we used to call a 'BS4343' connecotr, and is sometimes known by the the trade name 'Commando' in the UK. Yellow 110V ones are common in 16A and 32A versions on industrial portable power tools over here (which as I mentioned a few months back are un off a 55-0-55V insolating transformer with the cnetre tap earthed). The blue 220V ones, in 16A and 32A versions are also quite common, I've also seen 63A and 125A ones. And red, 415V 3 phase ones are common in both 4 pin and 5 pin versions. There arel aosl other colours for 50V, etc, but those ae much less common. > > Whether it is commonly used is another matter... > That's it. At least in germany the red five prong 6h type CEE plug is Sure. It is over here too. And if it's used, the neutral pin will be connected, so the wiring will be star (Wye). But I would not go so far as to claim that delta-connected 3 phasemains on the 4 pin socket never exists. -tony From fjgjr1 at aol.com Sun Mar 20 16:42:45 2011 From: fjgjr1 at aol.com (fjgjr1 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 17:42:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: =?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=9C_German_=E2=80=9C_Kaypro_and_CP/M_!?= In-Reply-To: <79F0A66E1A4E4374A67B8814F669D54F@dell8300> References: <000001cbe68a$b4817750$1d8465f0$@ntlworld.com> <79F0A66E1A4E4374A67B8814F669D54F@dell8300> Message-ID: <8CDB55EE1E2FC34-FF4-968C@Webmail-d106.sysops.aol.com> ? German ? Kaypro and CP/M ! www.z80.eu/kaypro.html by Peter Dassow. Thanks to all for alerting us to this great site ! As far as I was aware, there were only some Kaypros with ?Netherlands address? on the back case and an office there. I have one ! Non-Linear Systems [NLS] was international however and they made Kaypros. Osborne did have a German office also. Anyone else with more info on this ? I have asked Peter to respond. Frank From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 20 17:00:58 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 15:00:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Three phase and IBM In-Reply-To: <4D85BCE5.7080302@brouhaha.com> References: <2B75209B-AD52-45E9-9320-44D36010DFDF@quarterbyte.com> <4D847B92.2010604@brouhaha.com> <20110319124949.5cde22af.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4D853757.7090702@brouhaha.com> <20110320085824.575377fd.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4D85BCE5.7080302@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20110320144753.M28863@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 20 Mar 2011, Eric Smith wrote: > I wouldn't necessarily even trust the schematics of a device. It's all > too common for the published schematics to not actually match the equipment. Don't necessarily trust "electricians" or utility companies either! 35 years ago, in a brand new building (roof, but no floor yet), landlord's electrician and PG&E wired the three phase for my compressor wrong, providing ~200 volts to all of the outlets. 30 years ago, right before I was hired at Merritt college, they replaced the PDP which had been having lots of problems with a third party drive, with two rooms full of 5150s. (The primary IBM mainframe was at the district office). The college sold the PDP to Richmond School District (Now "West Contra Costa"). PG&E hooked it up incorrectly, and "destroyed" it. PG&E agreed to provide Richmond with an all new machine, (including replacing the flaky drive) if everybody would agree to a face-saving story that it had been destroyed by lightning. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 20 17:36:43 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 15:36:43 -0700 Subject: Ebay fee change as of 4/1 In-Reply-To: <4D865D4D.9070603@neurotica.com> References: <839732.1931.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <4D865923.1040608@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4D865D4D.9070603@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D861F0B.22806.D28772@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Mar 2011 at 16:02, Dave McGuire wrote: On 3/20/11 3:44 PM, ben wrote: > That drive light keeps flashing even when I just press > the keys writing this. Funny you should mention that. I've got a portable Hitachi 2TB eSATA drive that I use as a backup with various systems. Today I was doing a backup from my wife's system. The backup finished, but the drive was still (audibly) clunking away. I shut down the system, but left the drive powered up. It continued its conversation with the aether, unabated. I powered the connected system back up and things looked normal. Eventually after about 5 minutes, the activity stopped. No indication of errors; the backup looks fine. The cache on this thing couldn't have been THAT big. Any idea what was going on? --Chuck From fryers at gmail.com Sun Mar 20 20:14:00 2011 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 09:14:00 +0800 Subject: Three phase and IBM In-Reply-To: References: <4D853757.7090702@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: All, On 21 March 2011 03:33, Tony Duell wrote: [3 phase connections and RCDs] > I made a similar comment a couple of months back, and somebody claimed > that the RCDs (earyh leakage trips, ELCBs, GFIs, whatever you call them) > to their computer room were set to trip at 100A. I queried this at the > time, but was assured such things were not uncommon. I am still a little > worried. Sorry. Should have replied to that thread but the thread went sideways. I am guessing the 100A phase to ground breaker that was being claimed and the RCD/ELCB/GFI 30mA breaker are two different safety systems designed to detect and break current for two different purposes. The transmission network (at least in Australia where I have experience with the transmission infrastructure) have a requirement to break the current on a phase to ground/earth fault. This is to protect primary plant and system stability more than than people coming in contact with the conductors. At 66kV and above on lines designed to handle 10's to 100's of MVA, people are generally considered as self clearing faults. I seem to recall what was quoted was likely to be more of the distribution system, which, at the current specified would be to protect the local distribution transformer against a phase to ground/earth or a phase to phase fault. It may also be the case that someone recalculated the numbers and realised that the circuit breakers may not be rated to break the fault current. Note that the current that the circuit breaker is required to break when a fault is present can be significantly larger than normal operating current. Without seeing the wiring diagram of the installation and the associated calculations, really it is all guesswork. Although, I too would be a little concerned if some equipment (as opposed to large plant) was leaking close to 100A of current to earth. That sort of fault current to a low impedance earth would result in something getting hot! The RCD/ELCB/GFI are designed to break the current before it has a change to interrupt the heartbeat, if someone forms a circuit between a suitable active conductor and earth. This is a much smaller current designed to protect installations where people are much more likely to come into contact with the current carrying conductors. Note that for the pedantic. I have tried to use ground and earth as appropriate. Where I am using ground/earth, it is where I would be expecting a three wire transmission system with the center of the Y winding connected to a large metal pole driven into the physical earth near the transformer. [chomp] Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Mar 20 20:18:04 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 01:18:04 +0000 Subject: Manuals / jumper map for NEC FD1165 with G9NYB PCB In-Reply-To: <4D8510C1.12393.28327F3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D83C79A.30903@philpem.me.uk>, <4D850748.27436.25E28A2@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D856EF9.4030001@philpem.me.uk> <4D8510C1.12393.28327F3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D86A74C.8030201@philpem.me.uk> On 20/03/11 03:23, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Occasionally, I get a request for the 3.5" version of the 8" NEC > drive that you've got for some PC98-based CNC controller. They're > pretty rare on the ground and have all of the weird signals. You > can't just take a Teac FD235HG and swap one in. > > They're not cheap when you find them. I'll bet! It seems the "track 0 sensing quirk" is a little more complex than I originally thought. The old DiscFerret microcode (anything pre-rev 0x0021) would only check the state of TRACK0 after making STEP active. You were guaranteed at least one STEP pulse, even if TRACK0 was active... "Oops." This seems to upset the 8048 controller on the NEC drive. While it won't block the step operation, it will totally screw up the track 0 sensing until the head is stepped out a few tracks, then back to TK0. There also seems to be some significant delay between STEP going active and TK0 becoming valid -- far more than any other drive I have... The workaround, of course, is to check the state of TK0 both while STEP is active, and while it's inactive. If it goes active when STEP is inactive, then the drive is just slow to respond... :) I've added the Step Termination Reason bit too -- this is a bit in the STATUS1 register which is set if the last seek was aborted due to reaching track 0. Now to convert my scribbly paper notes on the FD1165S into Wiki markup, and hunt down a Famicom Disk System drive and discs..... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From bknittel at quarterbyte.com Sun Mar 20 13:15:58 2011 From: bknittel at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 11:15:58 -0700 Subject: Three phase and IBM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45B458CC-37C0-4A99-95CF-7C28EBCFF6D1@quarterbyte.com> Examination yesterday showed: * All connectors have 4 pins, and one wire is green * Labels in most of the gear just says "see manual" but two pieces are clearly (and multiply) labeled "wired for 208V" * Schematics show everything wired phase-to-phase, no neutral * 110V "convenience outlets" are run from a step-down transformer between 2 phases So, it appears to be 208V delta. I can run this from a wye-output transformer, though, right? Its plate says 208V phase-to-phase. Brian From CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie Sun Mar 20 13:51:31 2011 From: CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 18:51:31 +0000 (WET) Subject: Three phase and IBM Message-ID: <01NZ59QMDXJ6000SRN@beyondthepale.ie> > >Examination yesterday showed: > >* All connectors have 4 pins, and one wire is green >* Labels in most of the gear just says "see manual" but two pieces are clearly > (and multiply) labeled "wired for 208V" >* Schematics show everything wired phase-to-phase, no neutral >* 110V "convenience outlets" are run from a step-down transformer between 2 phases > >So, it appears to be 208V delta. > >I can run this from a wye-output transformer, though, right? Its plate says 208V phase-to-phase. > Yes. If there aren't any three phase loads that care (such as motors), then you don't need to worry about which order the phases are connected in. The only other thing I can think of is to check that the transformer can supply the required current. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From jlobocki at gmail.com Sun Mar 20 18:10:08 2011 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 18:10:08 -0500 Subject: Smoke From PSU Socket In-Reply-To: References: <000001cbe68a$b4817750$1d8465f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: I remember hearing that a first run of the original XBOX had a problem with solder joints on the power supply socket. plugging and unplugging would put stress fractures in the solder and traces until it got loose enough to break and/or short. MS decided to release a GFI-like power cord to customers with this model XBOX to correct the problem. could this stress/breakage be a possibility? one must also consider metal debris could have entered the connector or contacted between the solder contacts. if it is thin or small enough by the time its already shorted it could've evaporated (I've seen this with a metal wire twist tie that got between two mains contacts) -Joe On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 at 2:40 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I was given a DELNI recently, but it did not seem to work so I unplugged > it > > for later inspection. I just plugged it in now and it went up in smoke, > > knocking out all the sockets in the house. I have opened it up and the > > Presumably this tripped a main circuit breaker. Was it an over-current > breaker or an earth leakage device (GFI?)? > > > curious thing is that none of the capacitors has or any other component > of > > the PSU is showing any signs of damage, there is scorching only around > the > > socket itself. > > Did any fiuse in the deviec blow? I would remove and test all of them. > Normally a catastrophic failure in a power supply will blow at least one > fuse (after blowing numerous expenisve transistors :-))` > > Is the mains input sokcet a simple connefotr, or is it the mains filter > as well? The latter type will have a metal can on the back side, > sometimers with a scheamtic of the inductors and capacitors inside > printed on it. > > If the connector does contain a main filter, it's entirely possible one > of the capacitors decided to short at the wrong moment. > > Another possiblilty is leakeage on the socket itself. Dampness might > cause this (particularly if it was a GFI that tripped, it doesn't take > much current to do that). Or a conductive trace across the plastic of the > socekt (known as 'tracking'), caused by arcing or somethign like that. > > Obviosuly you need to replace the socket. If it was my devices, I would > check all the sceicondcutors and low-value resistors on the primary side > of the PSU to see if I could find a problem there. I'd also check the > main filter components (f not part of the socket) and do a high-voltage > insulation text. > > -tony > From doug at doughq.com Sun Mar 20 23:01:13 2011 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 15:01:13 +1100 Subject: Three phase and IBM In-Reply-To: References: <4D853757.7090702@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4D86CD89.9040700@doughq.com> On 21/03/2011 12:14 PM, Simon Fryer wrote: > At 66kV and above on lines designed to handle > 10's to 100's of MVA, people are generally considered as self clearing > faults. I have to clean my desk now.... %$$%*%$ coffee everywhere! From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Mar 21 04:39:45 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 01:39:45 -0800 Subject: Ebay fee change as of 4/1 In-Reply-To: <4D865923.1040608@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 3/20/11 11:44 AM, "ben" wrote: > > I got a COD package a few days ago. They took debit or check, > but *not* cash! > Ben. There's a damn good reason for that. Several years ago there was a rash of armed robberies of UPS and USPS personnel by criminals trying for an easy buck. From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Mar 21 04:41:47 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 01:41:47 -0800 Subject: Oil vs oilfree air compressors. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That is why I have a oil and water separator on the output line of the compressor we have here at home, as well as moisture absorbers on the blowguns I use to clean PCBs and other electronics. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Mar 21 04:19:15 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 10:19:15 +0100 (CET) Subject: Ebay fee change as of 4/1 In-Reply-To: <4D861F0B.22806.D28772@cclist.sydex.com> References: <839732.1931.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <4D865923.1040608@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4D865D4D.9070603@neurotica.com> <4D861F0B.22806.D28772@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Mar 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The cache on this thing couldn't have been THAT big. Any idea what > was going on? Idle surface scan? Used to be very common with Seagate drives. Christian From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Mar 21 05:45:14 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 11:45:14 +0100 Subject: HP150 Touchscreen again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000c01cbe7b5$12ad8690$380893b0$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: zondag 20 maart 2011 21:36 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: HP150 Touchscreen again > > A couple of months ago I asked about diagnosing problems with the > TOuchscreen board in an HP150. > > Well, I took some time off that project [1] but finally got back to it. I decided in > the end to make a text unit that would plug into the touchscreen PCB, produce > the clock signal, accept the sync and data signals and display the status of the 35 > beams on LEDs. > > [1] Sort-of classic computer related. I've been writing a set of articles for HPCC > on how to fix HP9800 machines. > > Being me, I built it from TTL (actually HC and HCT parts). It only took me a > couple of afternoons do design and build it. It starts with a 4MHz master clock, > divided down with a couple of '393 counters. A '30 adn '138 produce a paair of > spaced clcok pulses from this, a '02 combines one ofthes with the sync signal > from the tocuhscreen. These are all latched in a '175 to procude 3 clocks -- the > clock to the touchscreen PCB, a clock to sample the data from the touchscreen > PCB and an end-of-scan pulse to latch the received data and send it to the LEDs. > The data is shifted into '4094 shift registers/latches whihc feed a couple of rows > of LEDs. The powrr supply stats as 12V from my bench supply. That feedsthe > +ve input of the touchscreen. A 7805 powes the logic and LEds inthe test > box. And a 7660A provides the -12V supply for the tocuhscreen PCB. > > Anyway, after connecting it to the defective tocuhscreen PCB, I found > that one of the beams appeared to be blocked all the time. Blocking other > beams got the appropriate response from the test box, so I was pretty > sure the logic was all working properly. > > Since I knew which beam was malfunctioning, I tested its IR LED in-circuit > with an ohmmeter (system powered down, of course, It read differnetly > from the others either side of it, so I desoldered it and tested it out > of circuit. It's open. > > So the guy who told me that the emitter (LED) was the most likely failure > was right. > > Now all I need to do is find a replacement. > > -tony Are those the same LED's used in the HP 16500 series touchscreens ? As you may know I updated my 16500A to a 16500C version with a upgrade kit from Agilent. Upgrading included changing the touchscreen PCB, so I've an A-version which I don't use or maybe one day will part out. I think change is the LED's are the same, let me know If you want some of them. -Rik From dundas at caltech.edu Mon Mar 21 10:33:52 2011 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 08:33:52 -0700 Subject: RL02 drive tuneup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > >> So, I suppose it's safe to run the drive for a while *without* this = >> filter, but is there anything to use as a > > short-term substitute? The prefilter is used filter the air primarily for the heat exchanger. That air also circulates around some of the drive electronics and mechanicals, but not the platter or heads. Therefore, if you have a relatively clean area, you should be able to run the drive for an extended period of time without the prefilter entirely. On my own drives I've cut a suitably sized piece of filter material from a foam A/C filter to replace the original prefilter. It's been working well for a few years. >Unless your computer room is very dusty, it shoudl be safe to run the >drive without it. But having the pre-filter in place will prolong the >life of the absolute fitler. I'm not sure I understand this. The absolute filter is used to filter the air in the platter compartment (with the platter and heads); this is a sealed area once the cover is closed. The prefilter is not in the air path of the absolute filter, so how would it extend the life of the absolute filter? A practice I make is to allow the air to circulate for several minutes after mounting a new pack in the drive (with the cover closed), before spinning up the drive and loading the heads. The intent is to let the air circulate through the absolute filter and pick up any crud I might have allowed in, before the heads load. John From chrise at pobox.com Mon Mar 21 10:34:50 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 10:34:50 -0500 Subject: DEC 872-A power controller docs? In-Reply-To: References: <20110319233013.GD18272@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20110321153450.GI8489@n0jcf.net> On Sunday (03/20/2011 at 07:44PM +0000), Tony Duell wrote: > > All power cotnollers after a certain date (early 1970s, IIRC) use the > same 'power control bus', os the manual and/or printset for any of them > would be a good start. > > >From what I rememebr, the 3 pins are ground, ground-for-on, and > ground-for off, 'off' taking priority over 'on' if both are grouded. > There is no lartching in the power controllers. > > You interconnect all the power controllrs in the system with > straight-through cables. The power swtich on the CPU box is connected > betweem the ground and ground-fro-on wires, so that turning this on > acrviates all the controllers and powers up everythjing. Over-temperature > swtiches and the like are connected betweem ground and ground-for-off, so > thatr if any device overheats, the whole system shuts down. > > Thes signals are not TTL level. They may be up to 24V, nd you may have to > sink enough currnet to operate a reed relay. Just in case you want to > design your own swithcing units... Thanks Tony. I plan to put a rocker switch between ground and ground-for-on and use that to power up my entire "corporate" rack. Someone has already cut a square hole in the bottom front kick plate of this rack and so I was looking for something to fill that hole-- plastic plugs, body putty, and then a nice rocker switch came to mind. With that I won't have to crawl behind the rack to power it all up... and so this will connect nicely to one of the Power Control Bus connectors with just two wires and fill the void (so to speak) that someone put in this panel. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 21 10:44:32 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 11:44:32 -0400 Subject: DEC 872-A power controller docs? In-Reply-To: <20110321153450.GI8489@n0jcf.net> References: <20110319233013.GD18272@n0jcf.net> <20110321153450.GI8489@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4D877260.4060608@neurotica.com> On 3/21/11 11:34 AM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > Thanks Tony. I plan to put a rocker switch between ground and > ground-for-on and use that to power up my entire "corporate" rack. > > Someone has already cut a square hole in the bottom front kick plate > of this rack and so I was looking for something to fill that hole-- > plastic plugs, body putty, and then a nice rocker switch came to mind. > > With that I won't have to crawl behind the rack to power it all up... > and so this will connect nicely to one of the Power Control Bus connectors > with just two wires and fill the void (so to speak) that someone put in > this panel. What's in your corporate rack? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From trag at io.com Mon Mar 21 10:46:43 2011 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 10:46:43 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Anyone have a big iMac collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2e5500f18f96f3e9691a1877b2d76f20.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> > Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 17:27:36 -0700 > From: Bruce Damer > Hi folks, does anyone in the Bay Area or California have a big "multi > color" iMac G3 collection (from late 1990s-2001 or so)? A guy is > asking the Digibarn about this but all we have is one Bondi Blue model. > I remember seeing photos of some guy's basement, which was well appointed with stylish furniture and it was all holding his collection of macs in a ready-to-use fashion. Part of his collection was a large assortment of "flavors" of imacs. It was a truly impressive display. Unfortunately, I have no memory of where I saw these pictures. I'd guess it was a link from 68kmla or applefritter, but I am not certain of that. Someone on one of those two sites might have a clearer memory of what I'm thinking of. Of course, there's no saying that the collection is still extant, nor that it's geographically located as you specified. Jeff Walther From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Mar 21 12:46:00 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 12:46:00 -0500 Subject: Oil vs oilfree air compressors. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D878ED8.2010601@gmail.com> Geoffrey Reed wrote: > That is why I have a oil and water separator on the output line of the > compressor we have here at home, as well as moisture absorbers on the > blowguns I use to clean PCBs and other electronics. Is that a homebrew device or something that you bought? I've not used my compressor for things like PCBs for just that reason - it does put out a little oil, along with quite a lot (relatively-speaking) of moisture. cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 21 13:02:43 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 11:02:43 -0700 Subject: Oil vs oilfree air compressors. In-Reply-To: <4D878ED8.2010601@gmail.com> References: , <4D878ED8.2010601@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4D873053.894.59784C@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Mar 2011 at 12:46, Jules Richardson wrote: > Is that a homebrew device or something that you bought? I've not used > my compressor for things like PCBs for just that reason - it does put > out a little oil, along with quite a lot (relatively-speaking) of > moisture. They're inexpensive (ca. $20) for the small setup (1/4"-3/8" fittings) and are manually purged. If you've got a large setup, there are auto-purging models. Also known as an "air dryer". If you do much spray lacquer work, it's very important to have on on your air supply line. Also important if you have any pneumatic instrumentation (recorders, controllers, square-root extracters and the like). --Chuck From chrise at pobox.com Mon Mar 21 13:04:33 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 13:04:33 -0500 Subject: DEC 872-A power controller docs? In-Reply-To: <4D877260.4060608@neurotica.com> References: <20110319233013.GD18272@n0jcf.net> <20110321153450.GI8489@n0jcf.net> <4D877260.4060608@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110321180433.GM8489@n0jcf.net> On Monday (03/21/2011 at 11:44AM -0400), Dave McGuire wrote: > On 3/21/11 11:34 AM, Chris Elmquist wrote: >> Thanks Tony. I plan to put a rocker switch between ground and >> ground-for-on and use that to power up my entire "corporate" rack. >> >> Someone has already cut a square hole in the bottom front kick plate >> of this rack and so I was looking for something to fill that hole-- >> plastic plugs, body putty, and then a nice rocker switch came to mind. >> >> With that I won't have to crawl behind the rack to power it all up... >> and so this will connect nicely to one of the Power Control Bus connectors >> with just two wires and fill the void (so to speak) that someone put in >> this panel. > > What's in your corporate rack? Two RL02 and 11/34A... which fills it except for one ugly 1U-ish gap above the CPU and below the top RL02. The CPU can't go up tight to the top RL02 because of some structure in the rack so it looks like they always had some other small panel piece to fit there... which I do not have. There's a good picture of one here, http://museum.dyne.org/index.php/Immagine:P5182215.jpg So, that piece just below the RL02 is on my "to find" list ;-) Then the very bottom panel piece on mine has a roughly 1" x 3/4" rectangular hole cut in it near the right side. A white rocker switch with ( 1 / 0) embossed on it will fit that hole though and serve as my master on / off for the rack (via that 872-A PDU) I guess. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 21 14:20:20 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 15:20:20 -0400 Subject: DEC 872-A power controller docs? In-Reply-To: <20110321180433.GM8489@n0jcf.net> References: <20110319233013.GD18272@n0jcf.net> <20110321153450.GI8489@n0jcf.net> <4D877260.4060608@neurotica.com> <20110321180433.GM8489@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4D87A4F4.3070901@neurotica.com> On 3/21/11 2:04 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: >> What's in your corporate rack? > > Two RL02 and 11/34A... which fills it except for one ugly 1U-ish gap > above the CPU and below the top RL02. The CPU can't go up tight to > the top RL02 because of some structure in the rack so it looks like > they always had some other small panel piece to fit there... which I do > not have. > > There's a good picture of one here, > > http://museum.dyne.org/index.php/Immagine:P5182215.jpg That's really nice-looking packaging for an 11/34. > So, that piece just below the RL02 is on my "to find" list ;-) Ahh yes, there's one of those (in what looks to be an identical rack) in my VAX-11/730. There are two metal clips which screw into the rack, and the white piece snaps onto them. It's 1U tall, so in the worst case you could get a 1U flat filler panel and paint it to match the rest of the cabinet. > Then the very bottom panel piece on mine has a roughly 1" x 3/4" > rectangular hole cut in it near the right side. A white rocker switch > with ( 1 / 0) embossed on it will fit that hole though and serve as my > master on / off for the rack (via that 872-A PDU) I guess. That sounds like an excellent plan. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From doc at vaxen.net Mon Mar 21 14:26:33 2011 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 14:26:33 -0500 Subject: DEC 872-A power controller docs? In-Reply-To: <4D877260.4060608@neurotica.com> References: <20110319233013.GD18272@n0jcf.net> <20110321153450.GI8489@n0jcf.net> <4D877260.4060608@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D87A669.4030900@vaxen.net> On 3/21/11 10:44 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 3/21/11 11:34 AM, Chris Elmquist wrote: >> Thanks Tony. I plan to put a rocker switch between ground and >> ground-for-on and use that to power up my entire "corporate" rack. >> >> Someone has already cut a square hole in the bottom front kick plate >> of this rack and so I was looking for something to fill that hole-- >> plastic plugs, body putty, and then a nice rocker switch came to mind. >> >> With that I won't have to crawl behind the rack to power it all up... >> and so this will connect nicely to one of the Power Control Bus >> connectors >> with just two wires and fill the void (so to speak) that someone put in >> this panel. > > What's in your corporate rack? A cell phone, $60 mad money, and a lipstick. Doc From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 21 14:35:38 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 15:35:38 -0400 Subject: DEC 872-A power controller docs? In-Reply-To: <4D87A669.4030900@vaxen.net> References: <20110319233013.GD18272@n0jcf.net> <20110321153450.GI8489@n0jcf.net> <4D877260.4060608@neurotica.com> <4D87A669.4030900@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4D87A88A.2090205@neurotica.com> On 3/21/11 3:26 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: >> What's in your corporate rack? > > A cell phone, $60 mad money, and a lipstick. ROFL!! -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From brian at quarterbyte.com Mon Mar 21 14:41:06 2011 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 12:41:06 -0700 Subject: Three phase and IBM Message-ID: <4D87A9D2.18965.14B79345@brian.quarterbyte.com> One thing I forgot to mention: all of the three phase plugs have a label that indicates the required phase direction. From tiggerlasv at aim.com Mon Mar 21 14:48:31 2011 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 15:48:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC 872-A power controller docs? Message-ID: <8CDB61817534D63-2234-122B7@webmail-m137.sysops.aol.com> On Mon Mar 21 13:04:33 CDT 2011, Chris Elmquist chrise at pobox.com wrote: > Then the very bottom panel piece on mine has a roughly 1" x 3/4" > rectangular hole cut in it near the right side. A white rocker switch > with ( 1 / 0) embossed on it will fit that hole though and serve as my > master on / off for the rack (via that 872-A PDU) I guess. Most (if not all) of the "newer" BA11 chassis and/or power supplies will already have the same 3-pin connector you're talking about. If you have a BA11-L chassis, take a peek at the H777 power supply. It has a power distribution board that should have a 3-pin molex connector marked "J5". Connecting this pin-for-pin to the 3-pin connector on your H872-A power controller will turn on all of the switched outlets on the power controller, whenever the 11/34 is powered up. You can daisy-chain addiitonal power controllers, using the 2nd 3-pin connector on the H872-A. As for the hole on the kick-plate. . . I'm not sure what that's for -- I've seen it before though. T From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 21 14:50:06 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 12:50:06 -0700 Subject: Ebay fee change as of 4/1 In-Reply-To: References: <839732.1931.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <4D861F0B.22806.D28772@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4D87497E.2802.BBC8B1@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Mar 2011 at 10:19, Christian Corti wrote: > On Sun, 20 Mar 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > The cache on this thing couldn't have been THAT big. Any idea what > > was going on? > > Idle surface scan? Used to be very common with Seagate drives. Whatever it is, a quick web search shows that other people have noticed it on the 7K2000. The drive SMART logs show nothing amiss and a quick drive test turns up nothing. But it sure is spooky. --Chuck From evan at snarc.net Mon Mar 21 16:11:11 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 17:11:11 -0400 Subject: IBM 1130 restoration @ VCF East Message-ID: <4D87BEEF.5080406@snarc.net> Yet another awesome reason to attend VCF East 7.0: witness the beginnings of a "live restoration" of our museum's IBM 1130 mainframe, conducted by Norm Aleks and Brian Knittel, both of http://www.ibm1130.org ... they're traveling all the way from Berkeley, California. http://www.vintage.org/2011/east http://www.facebook.com/vcfeast7 http://www.snarc.net/vcfe7flier.pdf From oe5ewl at gmail.com Mon Mar 21 16:11:14 2011 From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 22:11:14 +0100 Subject: KLH10 Status / any1 tried to compile on Windows? Message-ID: Hi all, after stumbling around in the internet I ran across KLH10 again. Having it up and running fine and smoothely on my linux box I thought it'd be nice to have it run on my Windows-Laptop I have to use for work too (my only M$-Box here, runs Win7/64bit). Anyone already tried to compile KLH10 under Windows? Did a quick try, but get stuck loads of compiler errors /warnings. At least with my Standard MinGW/Code:Blocks dev.toolchain. Okay, I didn't tweak much. Maybe someone already got it to compile, I'd appreciate if you'd be willing to share code with me. Otherwise I'd begin to fix the various compiler-warnings and errors. By the way: KLH-10 development seems to be paused at the moment - does anyone know something about the current status? Regards, Wolfgang -- Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL Operating System Research Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com Homepage: www.eichberger.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 21 15:22:16 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 20:22:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Three phase and IBM In-Reply-To: <45B458CC-37C0-4A99-95CF-7C28EBCFF6D1@quarterbyte.com> from "Brian Knittel" at Mar 20, 11 11:15:58 am Message-ID: > > Examination yesterday showed: > > * All connectors have 4 pins, and one wire is green > * Labels in most of the gear just says "see manual" but two pieces are clear= > ly > (and multiply) labeled "wired for 208V" > * Schematics show everything wired phase-to-phase, no neutral > * 110V "convenience outlets" are run from a step-down transformer between 2 p= > hases > > So, it appears to be 208V delta. > > I can run this from a wye-output transformer, though, right? Its plate says 2= > 08V phase-to-phase. Sure you can. Provided the phase-to-phase voltage is correct (208V in this case), it doesn't matter if the supply is delta or star (Wye) connected. Just don;t connected anything to the neurral point on the transformer. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 21 15:28:42 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 20:28:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Three phase and IBM In-Reply-To: <20110320144753.M28863@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Mar 20, 11 03:00:58 pm Message-ID: > > On Sun, 20 Mar 2011, Eric Smith wrote: > > I wouldn't necessarily even trust the schematics of a device. It's all > > too common for the published schematics to not actually match the equipment. > > Don't necessarily trust "electricians" or utility companies either! Err, yes :-(. I haev seen some lethal wiring in my time that was installed by so-called 'professionals'. Not lethal, but when I was studying at Bristol, we moved a 3-phase pillar dril lfrom one lab to the next. Upon plugging it ino to the 3-phase socket in said lab, it ran backwards. I probalby violated $deity-knows-how-many rules by removign the cover of the motor switch box and swapping over 2 of the wires. However, quite why 2 sockets on opposite sides fo the same wall were wired with a differnet phase sequence is beyond me. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 21 16:24:49 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 21:24:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DEC 872-A power controller docs? In-Reply-To: <4D87A669.4030900@vaxen.net> from "Doc Shipley" at Mar 21, 11 02:26:33 pm Message-ID: > > What's in your corporate rack? > > > A cell phone, $60 mad money, and a lipstick. The mind boggles... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 21 16:07:18 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 21:07:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Oil vs oilfree air compressors. In-Reply-To: from "Geoffrey Reed" at Mar 21, 11 01:41:47 am Message-ID: > > That is why I have a oil and water separator on the output line of the > compressor we have here at home, as well as moisture absorbers on the > blowguns I use to clean PCBs and other electronics. I am quite sure it's possible to have a compressor that gives out oil-free air, after all, something had to compress the air in those 'spray duseter' cans. My comment was simply to remind people that the output of some compressors, without further cleaning-up, is not suitable for cleaning disk packs. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 21 16:11:12 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 21:11:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP150 Touchscreen again In-Reply-To: <000c01cbe7b5$12ad8690$380893b0$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at Mar 21, 11 11:45:14 am Message-ID: > Are those the same LED's used in the HP 16500 series touchscreens ? Not having seen inside a 16500, I don't know. I have extraced the faulty LED (you can do this without removing the housing from the PCB, thankfully. I didn't fancy having to desolder all 21 X-axis LEDs). It's a flat transparent package with a lens 'bubble' on the output side. I think it's commonly called a 'side viewing' package. > As you may know I updated my 16500A to a 16500C version with a upgrade kit > from Agilent. > Upgrading included changing the touchscreen PCB, so I've an A-version which > I don't use or maybe one day will part out. Why do you chnage the touchscreen PCB? Is the new one a higher resolution or something? > I think change is the LED's are the same, let me know If you want some of > them. THanks for the offer, but it appears that both RS components and Farnell sell IR LEDs in the same package. I will measure up the old one to check, and if they are the same I'll order a few replacements to try them I'd rather have a sourve of new speres than have to depend on what I can raid from old boards. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 21 16:16:04 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 21:16:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RL02 drive tuneup In-Reply-To: from "John A. Dundas III" at Mar 21, 11 08:33:52 am Message-ID: > I'm not sure I understand this. The absolute filter is used to > filter the air in the platter compartment (with the platter and > heads); this is a sealed area once the cover is closed. The > prefilter is not in the air path of the absolute filter, so how would > it extend the life of the absolute filter? As far as I know the pack is _not_ a sealed area. The air comes from the blower, goes through the absolute filter, then over the disk/heads, and that part is, indeed sealed, but the output from the pack area back to the input side of the blower is not. The blower takes in air from inside the drive, and that will partly be air that's come throug hte pre-filter. So if you have no pre-filter, there will be more dust on the input side of the absolute filter. > > A practice I make is to allow the air to circulate for several > minutes after mounting a new pack in the drive (with the cover > closed), before spinning up the drive and loading the heads. The > intent is to let the air circulate through the absolute filter and > pick up any crud I might have allowed in, before the heads load. In an RL drive, the blower is driven by the same motor that runs the spindle. Unles the pack is spinning up, there is almost no air flow through the absolute filter nad over the disk. So I wonder just what you are doing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 21 16:22:18 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 21:22:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DEC 872-A power controller docs? In-Reply-To: <20110321153450.GI8489@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Mar 21, 11 10:34:50 am Message-ID: > Thanks Tony. I plan to put a rocker switch between ground and > ground-for-on and use that to power up my entire "corporate" rack. FWIW, that's exactly what DEC did on the RL01 version of the MINC. There's a power controller (I forget which one) in the bottom of the rack with the RL01s in it, and a rocker switch on the front lip of the top panel. This is wired to the power control bus socket on the controller. Flipping it turns on the drives (and MINC processor box which is also plugged into the controller). There will eb a little toggle switch on the controller. In the centre-off positoon, the controller will never power up, no matter what you do to the control bus connectors. In the 'local on' position, the ground-for-on line inside the controller is groudned (so the outlets on that controller are powered), but the connection on the power bus socket is isolated so that other controllers are not also turned on. In the 'remote on' position, the controlelr works as I described. Youwant 'remote on', of coruse. I think the ground-for-off signal works as an emergency shutdown even in the 'local on' position, but I would have to check. > > Someone has already cut a square hole in the bottom front kick plate > of this rack and so I was looking for something to fill that hole-- > plastic plugs, body putty, and then a nice rocker switch came to mind. > > With that I won't have to crawl behind the rack to power it all up... > and so this will connect nicely to one of the Power Control Bus connectors > with just two wires and fill the void (so to speak) that someone put in > this panel. Should be fine. Any rocker switch will handle the votlages and currents used on the power control bus (it's <<1A at under 24V). And all you need is an SPST contact. -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 21 16:53:59 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 15:53:59 -0600 Subject: DEC 872-A power controller docs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D87C8F7.3070209@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/21/2011 3:24 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> What's in your corporate rack? >> >> >> A cell phone, $60 mad money, and a lipstick. > > The mind boggles... > > -tony > yep! Where does, $60 get you now days? :) From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Mar 21 16:55:38 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 22:55:38 +0100 Subject: HP150 Touchscreen again In-Reply-To: References: <000c01cbe7b5$12ad8690$380893b0$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at Mar 21, 11 11:45:14 am Message-ID: <000101cbe812$ba3a2820$2eae7860$@xs4all.nl> > > Are those the same LED's used in the HP 16500 series touchscreens ? > > Not having seen inside a 16500, I don't know. > > I have extraced the faulty LED (you can do this without removing the housing > from the PCB, thankfully. I didn't fancy having to desolder all > 21 X-axis LEDs). It's a flat transparent package with a lens 'bubble' on the output > side. I think it's commonly called a 'side viewing' package. Yest those are the same package. > > As you may know I updated my 16500A to a 16500C version with a upgrade > > kit from Agilent. > > Upgrading included changing the touchscreen PCB, so I've an A-version > > which I don't use or maybe one day will part out. > > Why do you chnage the touchscreen PCB? Is the new one a higher resolution or > something? When updating you get a new front which includes the touchscreen parts.. > > > I think change is the LED's are the same, let me know If you want some > > of them. > > THanks for the offer, but it appears that both RS components and Farnell sell IR > LEDs in the same package. I will measure up the old one to check, and if they are > the same I'll order a few replacements to try them > > I'd rather have a sourve of new speres than have to depend on what I can raid > from old boards. Yes I agree, but sometimes ... > > -tony -Rik From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 21 17:17:42 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 15:17:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC 872-A power controller docs? In-Reply-To: <4D87C8F7.3070209@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4D87C8F7.3070209@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20110321151633.Y70024@shell.lmi.net> > >>> What's in your corporate rack? > >> A cell phone, $60 mad money, and a lipstick. > > The mind boggles... > yep! Where does, $60 get you now days? :) a few hours at a coffeehouse to use their internet connection? (If you are drinking their cheapest "coffee drinks") From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Mar 21 17:28:01 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 22:28:01 -0000 Subject: KLH10 Status / any1 tried to compile on Windows? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00be01cbe817$3ead7cc0$bc087640$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Wolfgang Eichberger > Sent: 21 March 2011 21:11 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: KLH10 Status / any1 tried to compile on Windows? > > Hi all, > > after stumbling around in the internet I ran across KLH10 again. > Having it up and running fine and smoothely on my linux box I thought it'd be > nice to have it run on my Windows-Laptop I have to use for work too (my > only M$-Box here, runs Win7/64bit). > > Anyone already tried to compile KLH10 under Windows? Did a quick try, but > get stuck loads of compiler errors /warnings. At least with my Standard > MinGW/Code:Blocks dev.toolchain. Okay, I didn't tweak much. > Maybe someone already got it to compile, I'd appreciate if you'd be willing > to share code with me. Otherwise I'd begin to fix the various compiler- > warnings and errors. > > By the way: KLH-10 development seems to be paused at the moment - does > anyone know something about the current status? > > Regards, > Wolfgang > > -- > Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL > Operating System Research > Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com > Homepage: www.eichberger.org I tried the same thing once but I don't remember trying too hard before giving up and promising myself to come back to it one day. I too would be interested in a Windows port. Regards Rob From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Mar 21 18:17:48 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 16:17:48 -0700 Subject: KLH10 Status / any1 tried to compile on Windows? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Wolfgang Eichberger Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 2:11 PM > after stumbling around in the internet I ran across KLH10 again. > Having it up and running fine and smoothely on my linux box I thought > it'd be nice to have it run on my Windows-Laptop I have to use for > work too (my only M$-Box here, runs Win7/64bit). > Anyone already tried to compile KLH10 under Windows? Did a quick try, > but get stuck loads of compiler errors /warnings. At least with my > Standard MinGW/Code:Blocks dev.toolchain. Okay, I didn't tweak much. > Maybe someone already got it to compile, I'd appreciate if you'd be > willing to share code with me. Otherwise I'd begin to fix the various > compiler-warnings and errors. The usual stated goal is to port it to Windows rather than the CygWin crypto-Unix environment. That's a lot harder, it would seem, but it's not at all clear that the CygWin toolset can build it. > By the way: KLH-10 development seems to be paused at the moment - does > anyone know something about the current status? There have been a couple of issues noted with GCC4 (which you may or may not have encountered, depending on whether you built a KL-10 or a KS-10 emulator), but nothing much in the way of patches needed. The current maintainer has talked about upgrading from a KL-10 with 23 bits of address to a super-KL with a full super-section (27 bits of address). The full extended addressing specification is 30 bits, which the XKl-1 CPU in the Toad-1 implements, but that requires a lot of changes to the monitor that a single super-section would not. The problem is finding the time to do that plus the minimal monitor work needed (or a sugar daddy to pay him to do it). The usual response from that quarter to running KLH10 on Windows is that one ought simply to use a VM and run it on Linux. Or find a much much richer sugar daddy to foot that bill. (The preceding is based on face to face conversations with the maintainer.) Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Mar 21 19:11:14 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 13:11:14 +1300 Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - No longer an issue References: Message-ID: Hi, Well I had a crack at looking at the hall effect devices in the two faulty drives. Under the scope, there didn't seem to be anything unusual. All hall effect devices showed a similar AC waveform in all circumstances with nothing appearing unusual or very different about any of them? Although it would be good to know exactly what was wrong, further diagnosis is no longer necessary. John Woodall, whom I bought the X\Profile card off, has generously sent me a replacement drive (and a couple of spares), for the cost of shipping only! THANK YOU John. I tried them two of them out yesterday and they are fine. My two Lisas are now up and running. The project is still not quite complete. I'd like to get some rubber/plastic "feet' for the Lisas (they are missing their original ones) and the keys on one of the keyboards are a kind of olive colour. Some retr0brighting might be called for I think. Of course it would be great to have a Profile drive too, to turn my hard-driveless Lisa from a Lisa 2 to a Lisa 2/5 but I think that's just wishful thinking. (-: Many thanks Tony for all the help you've given me, and the general support from this mailing list. Terry (Tez) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2011 10:11 AM Subject: Re: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - Problem persists >> >> Well, that doesn't sound too hard. I'll give it a crack! >> >> No, I don't own a scope but I do have access to one occasionally. At the >> moment the scope is back with the owner and he's away so I might not be >> able >> to tackle this until next month. But..there is no hurry. It's not like >> I >> have to use my second Lisa for any urgent purpose. This is a hobby and >> there is plenty to keep me busy in the meantime. > > Sure. I find it's best to always have serveral projects 'on the go' so > that if I am held up with one (lack of parts, tools, test gear, info, > etc) I can get on with something else. > > In any case, when you get access to a 'scope, let me/us know and I'll > give you some more information... > > -tony > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Mar 21 19:22:28 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 19:22:28 -0500 Subject: Three phase and IBM In-Reply-To: <4D86CD89.9040700@doughq.com> References: <4D853757.7090702@brouhaha.com> <4D86CD89.9040700@doughq.com> Message-ID: <4D87EBC4.9060307@gmail.com> Doug Jackson wrote: > On 21/03/2011 12:14 PM, Simon Fryer wrote: >> At 66kV and above on lines designed to handle >> 10's to 100's of MVA, people are generally considered as self clearing >> faults. > I have to clean my desk now.... %$$%*%$ coffee everywhere! That was rather... poetic. :-) From chrise at pobox.com Mon Mar 21 19:39:07 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 19:39:07 -0500 Subject: DEC 872-A power controller docs? In-Reply-To: <8CDB61817534D63-2234-122B7@webmail-m137.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CDB61817534D63-2234-122B7@webmail-m137.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <20110322003906.GL18272@n0jcf.net> On Monday (03/21/2011 at 03:48PM -0400), tiggerlasv at aim.com wrote: > > Most (if not all) of the "newer" BA11 chassis and/or power supplies > will already have the same 3-pin connector you're talking about. > > If you have a BA11-L chassis, take a peek at the H777 power supply. > > It has a power distribution board that should have a 3-pin molex connector marked "J5". Yes! I have been looking right past those all along. There are two labeled J1 and J2 right next to where the line cord enters the chassis. Anybody know a MOLEX P/N for the mating connector? I'm still searching... > Connecting this pin-for-pin to the 3-pin connector on your H872-A power controller > will turn on all of the switched outlets on the power controller, whenever the 11/34 is powered up. Very nice. That's the right solution here. And so then I need to find something else to plug the hole cut in the bottom panel of the rack... Lipstick? > You can daisy-chain addiitonal power controllers, using the 2nd 3-pin connector on the H872-A. Right. There are two pairs on the 872-A... one set facing the rear and one set facing the front. > As for the hole on the kick-plate. . . I'm not sure what that's for -- I've seen it before though. It sure looks like the end user did this... they also cut round notches in the top edge of the same plate to clear some kind of cabling. Fortunately, with another chassis mounted above the plate, you don't see these additional holes. But the 1" x 3/4" is kinda obvious and also now has some rust on the edges where they cut it and filed to fit. Maybe I'll make a |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| sticker in some image editor and stick that over the hole :-) Chris -- Chris Elmquist From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Mar 21 20:33:54 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 20:33:54 -0500 Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - No longer an issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 7:11 PM, Terry Stewart > > I tried them two of them out yesterday and they are fine. ?My two Lisas are > now up and running. Congrats! You give inspiration to those of us with dusty, yellowed Lisas hidden away in the basement somewhere :) From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 21 20:41:45 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 18:41:45 -0700 Subject: KLH10 Status / any1 tried to compile on Windows? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 4:17 PM -0700 3/21/11, Rich Alderson wrote: >The usual response from that quarter to running KLH10 on Windows is that >one ought simply to use a VM and run it on Linux. This was my thought. One question, how well does networking function in such a setup? Another solution would be a cheap Intel Atom box running Linux. This is the route I've wanted to take, just haven't found the time or money. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Mar 21 21:00:46 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 02:00:46 +0000 Subject: ANN: DiscFerret R0031 Microcode and C API 1.1r1 Message-ID: <4D8802CE.5050007@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, I've just uploaded the DiscFerret R0031 Microcode and a new version of the C API (libDiscFerret) to the DiscFerret website: http://discferret.com/wiki/DiscFerret:Downloads Changes include: * Microcode 0031 - Add a "track 0 reached during seek" status bit. This is cleared when a seek begins, and set if the seek operation was terminated because the TRACK0 input went active. - Fix some issues with "over-seeking" (in some cases, the DiscFerret could send a seek pulse even though TRACK0 was active). * Libdiscferret 1.1r1 - Add support for the "track 0 reached during seek" status bit - Add support functions for disc seeking: set seek rate, recalibrate, seek relative and seek absolute. These remove the need to play bit-twiddling games with the various seek controller registers: simply figure out which track you want, and tell the library to seek to that track. The register changes have been ported to the Python API, but the seek functions have not. "Porting these functions to Python is left as an exercise to the reader." I'm still working on a proper C-API tutorial, but the Doxygen documentation should be enough to figure out the basics. Last but not least, in case you missed my "King of the Lab" comment earlier this week -- I've got a working pinout for the NEC 8in floppy drive used in the early-PC98-series external drive box. You also have to flip a jumper... I know, real difficult :) Details on how to make this work with a DiscFerret will be posted "soon". As in, as soon as I figure out how to create a fairly nice looking, readable pin-connection diagram... Comments, bug reports and feature requests are, as always, welcome. Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Mar 21 21:04:49 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 15:04:49 +1300 Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - No longer an issue References: Message-ID: <02A065FC7153401FB35AD3638CB4C3B5@massey.ac.nz> Poor girls! Get them out into the light of day and let them see the sun (-: Mind you they are heavy and large, and it's no surprise that many people with Lisa's have them away in storage. Fixing and working with these Lisas have certainly given me an appreciation of them. I knew of their historical significance, but I didn't realise just how easy they were to disassemble and work on. Still a remenant of the Apple II open hardware ethos there. Very different from the later Macs where there was every discouragement to prevent you tinking with it. It's a pity that low-level format methodologies/hardware for the Widget drive (not the Profile) seem to be lost in time. I wonder how many non-working widgets around which require just this one step. I intend to do a final writeup with photos so I'll send a link through to the group when I'm done. Terry (Tez) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason T" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 2:33 PM Subject: Re: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - No longer an issue On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 7:11 PM, Terry Stewart > > I tried them two of them out yesterday and they are fine. My two Lisas are > now up and running. Congrats! You give inspiration to those of us with dusty, yellowed Lisas hidden away in the basement somewhere :) From useddec at gmail.com Mon Mar 21 21:06:44 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 21:06:44 -0500 Subject: DEC Q-bus and compatable boards Message-ID: Here is a partial list of DEC boards I have available. I have approximately 100 DEC compatable boards, including Dilog and Emulex. Shipping is $10 for one boarrd and $15 for two or more within the US. (Please inquire if outside the US.) If you need anything not listed, please feel free to contact me off list. M3107 DHQ11 $30 M7504 DEQNA $35 M7546 TK50 $25 M7559 TQK70 $50 M7944 MSV11-B $20 M7949 LAV11 $39 M8943 DLV11-J $75 M8044 MSV11-D $20 M8186 1123cpu $75 M8189 1123+ $125 Thanks, Paul From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Mar 21 21:22:20 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 19:22:20 -0700 Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - No longer an issue In-Reply-To: <02A065FC7153401FB35AD3638CB4C3B5@massey.ac.nz> References: <02A065FC7153401FB35AD3638CB4C3B5@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: <4D8807DC.408@bitsavers.org> On 3/21/11 7:04 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > It's a pity that low-level format > methodologies/hardware for the Widget drive (not the Profile) seem to be lost in time. As in swapping the Z8 with a special one with a piggyback eprom? From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Mar 21 21:29:58 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 21:29:58 -0500 Subject: Smoke From PSU Socket In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D8809A6.5020302@gmail.com> Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> Also I don't know why the socket shorted, if it *was* wet then perhaps I >> could plug it in again, but I am very doubtful that this would be a good >> idea. Should I just be thinking of replacing the socket? > > Many "IEC sockets" are more than just sockets, and incorporate EMI suppression > components as well. The euphemism becomes "power entry module" instead > of "socket". The EMI suppression components (especially capacitors) in them are > specced for AC line voltage applications and UL rated such, but they > still let out their magic smoke every so often :-). I was wondering that, too. I've seen plenty of such sockets that have a metal can on the inside of the case containing suppression components, and have seen more than one fail - result being that the smoke works its way out via the external power cord pins. It's so long since I've been inside a DELNI that I don't remember if they have these (or if they're just a plain ol' socket) > Even if it's just a socket, some debris can get in there during storage, you > plug it in, the debris trips a fuse and vaporizes, and all you're left with is > a charred socket. Maybe the power cord, even - damaged contacts or internal wiring, and plugging it in shorted things out? From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Mar 21 21:40:21 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 19:40:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - No longer an issue In-Reply-To: <4D8807DC.408@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <808601.54562.qm@web121618.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 3/21/11, Al Kossow wrote: > > It's a pity that low-level format > > methodologies/hardware for the Widget drive (not the > Profile) seem to be lost in time. > > As in swapping the Z8 with a special one with a piggyback > eprom? That's the Profile. The Profile can be formatted in such a manner, but the Widget is a different beast entirely. The Profile drive is basically just a custom controller board wrapped around an ST506 disk mechanism. Stepper positioned, simple. The Widget drive, on the other hand, is the 10mb internal hard disk for the Lisa. It's voice coil positioned, and has a little glass strip with lines on it for track positioning. The controller is different from the Profile, although the interface is basically the same. The code in the Z8 is totally different than it is on the Profile. If low level formatting software was ever available for the Widget, nobody knows of it's existence. The reason the Profile needed a ROM swap to do formatting is due to the limits of the code space in the Z8. There isn't enough room for both the formatting routines and the operational routines. So, if you have a formatter ROM in the Profile, it won't work normally, and with a normal ROM, you can't format it. I would assume there is something similar going on with the Widget, but without the special ROM (and the software to run on the computer to talk to it), there isn't a way to do a low level format. Assuming, of course, that the mechanism is capable of doing a low level format on it's own, without external help. Since it has the glass positioner, it *should* be able to. -Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 21 21:50:13 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 22:50:13 -0400 Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - No longer an issue In-Reply-To: <808601.54562.qm@web121618.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <808601.54562.qm@web121618.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D880E65.20609@neurotica.com> On 3/21/11 10:40 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > The reason the Profile needed a ROM > swap to do formatting is due to the limits of the code space in the > Z8. There isn't enough room for both the formatting routines and the > operational routines. I'm guessing from the era that this was a 2KB or 4KB Z8. Is there a possibility of replacing it with a piggybackable EPROM, but using one size larger, burning both sets of firmware into it, and driving the high-order address bit with a toggle switch? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 21 21:52:55 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 22:52:55 -0400 Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - No longer an issue In-Reply-To: <4D880E65.20609@neurotica.com> References: <808601.54562.qm@web121618.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4D880E65.20609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D880F07.1020300@neurotica.com> On 3/21/11 10:50 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> The reason the Profile needed a ROM >> swap to do formatting is due to the limits of the code space in the >> Z8. There isn't enough room for both the formatting routines and the >> operational routines. > > I'm guessing from the era that this was a 2KB or 4KB Z8. Is there a > possibility of replacing it with a piggybackable EPROM, but using one > size larger, burning both sets of firmware into it, and driving the > high-order address bit with a toggle switch? (appending to my own post) The Z8603 or Z8613 would be the ones.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Mar 21 21:59:35 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 19:59:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - No longer an issue In-Reply-To: <4D880E65.20609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <235517.57250.qm@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 3/21/11, Dave McGuire wrote: > ? I'm guessing from the era that this was a 2KB or 4KB > Z8.? Is there a possibility of replacing it with a > piggybackable EPROM, but using one size larger, burning both > sets of firmware into it, and driving the high-order address > bit with a toggle switch? Yeah, it's a 2k. It would be pretty trivial to make a switchable ROM, but at the same time, it's hardly necessary. Low Level formatting needs to be done very rarely. It's not something you're likely to need to do to the same disk twice (and if you do, there is probably something wrong with the disk...) Also, you wouldn't usually want to leave the piggyback version of the Z8 in the drive. The stock chip is a maskrom Z8 - might as well put it back when you're done formatting. -Ian From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 21 23:58:32 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 21:58:32 -0700 Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - No longer an issue In-Reply-To: <808601.54562.qm@web121618.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <808601.54562.qm@web121618.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D882C78.4010808@brouhaha.com> Al Kossow wrote about formatting the Apple Profile hard drive: > As in swapping the Z8 with a special one with a piggyback > eprom? Ian Primus wrote: > That's the Profile. [...] > The reason the Profile needed a ROM swap to do formatting is due > to the limits of the code space in the Z8. There isn't enough room > for both the formatting routines and the operational routines. So, > if you have a formatter ROM in the Profile, it won't work normally, > and with a normal ROM, you can't format it. Is the necessary ROM code, and the host formatter program (for the Apple ///?) available somewhere? Eric From oe5ewl at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 01:04:50 2011 From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 07:04:50 +0100 Subject: KLH10 Status / any1 tried to compile on Windows? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: KLH10 under some sort of linux under Virtualbox under Windows is doable. With networking. Configuration can be a bit tricky, but usually isn't. An atom box could be a elegant way to but, spoken for me, I definately need something portable to carry around. Thank you for all answers so far, Regards, Wolfgang -- Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL Operating System Research Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com Homepage: www.eichberger.org 2011/3/22 Zane H. Healy : > At 4:17 PM -0700 3/21/11, Rich Alderson wrote: >> >> The usual response from that quarter to running KLH10 on Windows is that >> one ought simply to use a VM and run it on Linux. > > This was my thought. ?One question, how well does networking function in > such a setup? > > Another solution would be a cheap Intel Atom box running Linux. ?This is the > route I've wanted to take, just haven't found the time or money. > > Zane > > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?| UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com ? ? ? ? ? ? ?| OpenVMS Enthusiast ? ? ? ? | > | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?| Photographer ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? My flickr Photostream ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | > | ? ? ? ? ?http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ ? ? ? ? ? | > From jonas at otter.se Mon Mar 21 16:32:44 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 22:32:44 +0100 Subject: Three phase and IBM Message-ID: <4D87C3FC.9060103@otter.se> Fred Cisin wrote: > Don't necessarily trust "electricians" or utility companies either! > > 35 years ago, in a brand new building (roof, but no floor yet), landlord's > electrician and PG&E wired the three phase for my compressor wrong, > providing ~200 volts to all of the outlets. Today at lunch, one of my co-workers told us about an occasion a number of years back, when an electrician at the local electricity company (in a small town in Sweden) had made a wrong connection, feeding the whole area about 300V instead of 220V. Apparently it cost the power company millions to replace all the freezers and fridges that had burnt out. /Jonas From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Mar 22 05:45:54 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 02:45:54 -0800 Subject: Oil vs oilfree air compressors. In-Reply-To: <4D878ED8.2010601@gmail.com> Message-ID: The seperators and moisture absorbers are off the shelf devices, add swivel hoses and the appropriate quick disconnect couplers and Voila! I have to have dry air as I also drive a soda blaster from this compressor.. Although, I'm really starting to lust after an upright compressor that has about 5x the volume in its tank On 3/21/11 9:46 AM, "Jules Richardson" wrote: > Geoffrey Reed wrote: >> That is why I have a oil and water separator on the output line of the >> compressor we have here at home, as well as moisture absorbers on the >> blowguns I use to clean PCBs and other electronics. > > Is that a homebrew device or something that you bought? I've not used my > compressor for things like PCBs for just that reason - it does put out a > little oil, along with quite a lot (relatively-speaking) of moisture. > > cheers > > Jules > > From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Mar 22 05:52:56 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 02:52:56 -0800 Subject: Smoke From PSU Socket In-Reply-To: <4D8809A6.5020302@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 3/21/11 6:29 PM, "Jules Richardson" wrote: > I was wondering that, too. I've seen plenty of such sockets that have a > metal can on the inside of the case containing suppression components, and > have seen more than one fail - result being that the smoke works its way > out via the external power cord pins. It's so long since I've been inside > a DELNI that I don't remember if they have these (or if they're just a > plain ol' socket) Several years ago the scrapper I was working for got a couple pallets of "dead" plasma monitors and TVs. None of them would power on, and none of them had any status LEDs visible... We opened a tv and monitor up and first bloody thing I did was hook up a power cable and take a meter to the output of the power filter/socket assembly. -0- Volts AC.... Bypass it and voila the monitor lights up... Check the TV and the same damn thing.... All of the monitors and tvs had the same problem. $30 each later and they had a LOT of plasma monitors and TVs to sell. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Mar 22 09:09:03 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 14:09:03 -0000 Subject: Smoke From PSU Socket In-Reply-To: <4D8809A6.5020302@gmail.com> References: <4D8809A6.5020302@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000601cbe89a$b698b5a0$23ca20e0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson > Sent: 22 March 2011 02:30 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Smoke From PSU Socket > > Shoppa, Tim wrote: > >> Also I don't know why the socket shorted, if it *was* wet then > >> perhaps I could plug it in again, but I am very doubtful that this > >> would be a good idea. Should I just be thinking of replacing the socket? > > > > Many "IEC sockets" are more than just sockets, and incorporate EMI > > suppression components as well. The euphemism becomes "power entry > > module" instead of "socket". The EMI suppression components > > (especially capacitors) in them are specced for AC line voltage > > applications and UL rated such, but they still let out their magic smoke > every so often :-). > > I was wondering that, too. I've seen plenty of such sockets that have a metal > can on the inside of the case containing suppression components, and have > seen more than one fail - result being that the smoke works its way out via > the external power cord pins. It's so long since I've been inside a DELNI that > I don't remember if they have these (or if they're just a plain ol' socket) > > > Even if it's just a socket, some debris can get in there during > > storage, you plug it in, the debris trips a fuse and vaporizes, and > > all you're left with is a charred socket. > > Maybe the power cord, even - damaged contacts or internal wiring, and > plugging it in shorted things out? I have closed the box again, but I seem to remember the socket did indeed have a covering, presumably with components inside. Should I consider replacing the whole socket, or is it possible to repair the individual components inside? Assuming of course that the damage is not too great. Regards Rob From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Mar 22 10:12:06 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 08:12:06 -0700 Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - No longer an issue In-Reply-To: <808601.54562.qm@web121618.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <808601.54562.qm@web121618.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D88BC46.6050108@bitsavers.org> On 3/21/11 7:40 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > If low level formatting software was ever available for the Widget, nobody knows of it's existence. The information in http://bitsavers.org/pdf/apple/disk may be of interest. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Mar 22 11:16:19 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 10:16:19 -0600 Subject: KLH10 Status / any1 tried to compile on Windows? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Wolfgang Eichberger writes: > Anyone already tried to compile KLH10 under Windows? Did a quick try, > but get stuck loads of compiler errors /warnings. At least with my > Standard MinGW/Code:Blocks dev.toolchain. For Windows, you're really much better off compiling with Visual Studio and not the MinGW hacky setup. Visual C++ Express 2010 is a free download, so cost isn't an excuse anymore. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Mar 22 11:18:34 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 10:18:34 -0600 Subject: KLH10 Status / any1 tried to compile on Windows? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Rich Alderson writes: > The usual stated goal is to port it to Windows rather than the CygWin > crypto-Unix environment. That's a lot harder, it would seem, [...] I'm not familiar with the KLH-10 source code, but for an old school emulator I can't imagine it doing anything more fancy than stdio. Is it C or C++? What makes it hard to port? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From oe5ewl at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 13:39:09 2011 From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 19:39:09 +0100 Subject: KLH10 Status / any1 tried to compile on Windows? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Seems to be pretty all in C. I imported the whole project in Visual C already and am tweaking around. Huge parts should compile relative easy, currently I'm into the networking sections. I believe it could be ported, it's just a matter of time. I try to leave the source original as much as possible, just doing extensions. If I've got enough time in the evenings (depends a bit of my little kiddies) I assume a timeframe of a couple of weeks to get a decent compiler run without serious errors. Any suggestions tipps and tricks are welcome :D I'm doing this because of my interest in technology, especially the hardware emulation stuff. Regards, Wolfgang -- Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL Operating System Research Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com Homepage: www.eichberger.org 2011/3/22 Richard : > > In article , > ? ?Rich Alderson writes: > >> The usual stated goal is to port it to Windows rather than the CygWin >> crypto-Unix environment. ?That's a lot harder, it would seem, [...] > > I'm not familiar with the KLH-10 source code, but for an old school > emulator I can't imagine it doing anything more fancy than stdio. ?Is > it C or C++? ?What makes it hard to port? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > ? > > ? ? ?Legalize Adulthood! > From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Mar 22 13:43:42 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 11:43:42 -0700 Subject: KLH10 Status / any1 tried to compile on Windows? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Richard Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 9:19 AM > In article > , Rich > Alderson writes: >> The usual stated goal is to port it to Windows rather than the CygWin >> crypto-Unix environment. That's a lot harder, it would seem, [...] > I'm not familiar with the KLH-10 source code, but for an old school > emulator I can't imagine it doing anything more fancy than stdio. Is > it C or C++? What makes it hard to port? Presumably things like the System V shared memory model used by the CPU and peripherals modules. I am not a C programmmer, I can only go by what I've been told by KLH and MRC. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From legalize at xmission.com Tue Mar 22 14:38:34 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 13:38:34 -0600 Subject: KLH10 Status / any1 tried to compile on Windows? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Rich Alderson writes: > From: Richard > > > I'm not familiar with the KLH-10 source code, but for an old school > > emulator I can't imagine it doing anything more fancy than stdio. Is > > it C or C++? What makes it hard to port? > > Presumably things like the System V shared memory model used by the CPU > and peripherals modules. I am not a C programmmer, I can only go by what > I've been told by KLH and MRC. I can help with the port; I'm knowledgable about Windows system facilities. Wolfgang, feel free to email me off list with questions and I'll help if I can. I'd suggest hosting the source code on codeplex or sharing repositories with Mercurial. That way you can make local commits and track your changes more readily, as well as share those changes with others. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Mar 22 14:50:41 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 12:50:41 -0700 Subject: KLH10 Status / any1 tried to compile on Windows? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Richard Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 12:39 PM > I'd suggest hosting the source code on codeplex or sharing > repositories with Mercurial. That way you can make local commits > and track your changes more readily, as well as share those changes > with others. I'd suggest that that is a very bad idea. There is already a well-known repository for KLH10, to wit, Tim Shoppa's trailing-edge.com site. I can't imagine that Tim would mind hosting a Windows port, and I'd hate to see repositories for this proliferate. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From legalize at xmission.com Tue Mar 22 15:14:55 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 14:14:55 -0600 Subject: KLH10 Status / any1 tried to compile on Windows? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Rich Alderson writes: > From: Richard > > > I'd suggest hosting the source code on codeplex or sharing > > repositories with Mercurial. That way you can make local commits > > and track your changes more readily, as well as share those changes > > with others. > > I'd suggest that that is a very bad idea. There is already a well-known > repository for KLH10, to wit, Tim Shoppa's trailing-edge.com site. I can't > imagine that Tim would mind hosting a Windows port, and I'd hate to see > repositories for this proliferate. OK, but the problem that I've seen with most of these "repositories" is that they are monolithic tarball distributions. They aren't places where people can work collaboratively. Specifically, if you're talking about: , this isn't a place where we can collaborate on the code, its simply a distribution point for a tarball. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 22 14:54:53 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 19:54:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Smoke From PSU Socket In-Reply-To: <000601cbe89a$b698b5a0$23ca20e0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Mar 22, 11 02:09:03 pm Message-ID: > I have closed the box again, but I seem to remember the socket did indeed > have a covering, presumably with components inside. Should I consider > replacing the whole socket, or is it possible to repair the individual > components inside? Assuming of course that the damage is not too great. It is normal to replace the enbtire assembly, and it's quite likely that a suitable replacement can be obtained. Of courde you might want to have a go at repairing it. Whether this is possible depends on what has failed and if you can get inside the module. If it is a normal filter assembly, it will contain a bifilar-wound inductor (which is almost impossible to obtain as a 'loose' component) and 3 or more capacitors (which are avialable. There may be aschematic on the can. If you get continuity from the liv/neutral pins to the tags to whci hthe itnernal wires are connected, then the inductor is probably OK. Most of the time if there are problems it's one of the capacitor that has failed I suspect some of thse modules are filled with 'potting compound' (a mad friend of mine clals this 'potting compost' :-)) which makes repairs almost impossibel. Some DEC machines have a filter in a square metal can about 6cm on a side on the back of the inptu conenctor, the lid is soldered on. I think you van probably desodler the lid with a _large_ solderign iron and repari it. The type that looks like deep IEC socket behidd the panel is probably not repariable. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 22 13:47:13 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 18:47:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP150 Touchscreen again In-Reply-To: <000101cbe812$ba3a2820$2eae7860$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at Mar 21, 11 10:55:38 pm Message-ID: > > Not having seen inside a 16500, I don't know. > > > > I have extraced the faulty LED (you can do this without removing the > housing > > from the PCB, thankfully. I didn't fancy having to desolder all > > 21 X-axis LEDs). It's a flat transparent package with a lens 'bubble' on > the output > > side. I think it's commonly called a 'side viewing' package. > > Yest those are the same package. I am not suprised... I've measured the physical dimensions of the old LED and noted its polarity, and I hope that the ones now avaialbe are the same. I will search the catalogues again. Incidnetally, I dugh out my 'battered' HP150. This was included when I bought the 'good' machine as a source of spares. I extracted the touchscreen PCB and connected it to the tester. About 5 beams were blocked, all in the X direction. So I cleaned all the IR lEDs along the bottom of the hole. tried again, _all_ beams good. That machines (the batteresd one) passes the self-tests with no problems. Always the way, isn't it :-). No, I am not tempted to swap bits between them, well mot unless I really can't get a good IR LED to repair the other touchscreen. > > > > As you may know I updated my 16500A to a 16500C version with a upgrade > > > kit from Agilent. > > > Upgrading included changing the touchscreen PCB, so I've an A-version > > > which I don't use or maybe one day will part out. > > > > Why do you chnage the touchscreen PCB? Is the new one a higher resolution > or > > something? > > When updating you get a new front which includes the touchscreen parts.. Oh right... Are tyhe 2 touchscreen PCBs the same? If not, what is the difference? If they are the saem, why didn't the upgrade get you to move the old PCB to the new front paneL? Do you happen to knwo anything abot uthe itnerface on these touchscreends? The HP150 (original, 9" CRT) has a custom interface consisitng of a clock line, sync line and data line, on a 10 pin (2*5) header plug. The touchscreen PCB contains all standard chips, mostly 4000-series CMOS. The HP150-II has an HP-HIL interfaced touchscreen (it's the same unit that fits some of the monitors used with HP9000s). The interface is no a 9 pin (IIRC) SIL connector. Not suprisingly there's a microcotnroller (40 pins, I think it's a TMS7000 series) on the PCB. > > I'd rather have a sourve of new speres than have to depend on what I can > raid > > from old boards. > > Yes I agree, but sometimes ... Sure, and if I can't find a suitable replacement at Farnell or somwewhere, I may get back to you. But I don't think it's going to be too difficult to find something that will work. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 22 14:07:51 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 19:07:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - No longer an issue In-Reply-To: from "Terry Stewart" at Mar 22, 11 01:11:14 pm Message-ID: > > Hi, > > Well I had a crack at looking at the hall effect devices in the two faulty > drives. Under the scope, there didn't seem to be anything unusual. All > hall effect devices showed a similar AC waveform in all circumstances with > nothing appearing unusual or very different about any of them? I wonder wht the problem is, then.... I suppose it's possible that soemthing is damaging the contoller IC as soon as you try it. The obvious candidate for that would be the damping capacitors, but you've changed those. We know, I think, that the motor windings are not open or dead short, but I wonder if a shorted turn in one of the windings could damage the contorller IC. > > Although it would be good to know exactly what was wrong, further diagnosis > is no longer necessary. John Woodall, whom I bought the X\Profile card off, > has generously sent me a replacement drive (and a couple of spares), for the > cost of shipping only! THANK YOU John. > > I tried them two of them out yesterday and they are fine. My two Lisas are > now up and running. Words like 'wimp' and 'boardswapper' are going through my mind :-). I guess that's where I differ from many people here. I don't just want working classic computers, I want to know how they work, and I want to know how to really cure any faults I come across. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 22 14:14:02 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 19:14:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - No longer an issue In-Reply-To: <02A065FC7153401FB35AD3638CB4C3B5@massey.ac.nz> from "Terry Stewart" at Mar 22, 11 03:04:49 pm Message-ID: > > Poor girls! Get them out into the light of day and let them see the sun (-: > Mind you they are heavy and large, and it's no surprise that many people > with Lisa's have them away in storage. Somehow I think I will never have a Lisa 'in storage' or anywhere else for that matter. They are very rare in the UK and very expensive... > > Fixing and working with these Lisas have certainly given me an appreciation > of them. I knew of their historical significance, but I didn't realise just > how easy they were to disassemble and work on. Still a remenant of the As a general point, I've never really seen much advantage in this. If I am gixing a computer, I am going to need (at least) a multimeter, logic anlyser, soldering iron, etc. Havcing to use a screwdriver as well doesnt' seem lik much of a problem. > Apple II open hardware ethos there. Very different from the later Macs > where there was every discouragement to prevent you tinking with it. It's a I didn;t stop me fixing my Mac+ to compoentn level :-)... But neing discoraged from pulling the case, making modifications, etc, is a good reason why I would avoid a particular product. Being unable to do what _I_ like with it (as with some current Apple products) is a good enough reason for me to never want or recoemnd one. -tony From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Mar 22 15:38:30 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 20:38:30 +0000 Subject: Smoke From PSU Socket In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D8908C6.9000609@philpem.me.uk> On 22/03/11 19:54, Tony Duell wrote: > The type that looks like deep IEC socket > behidd the panel is probably not repariable. In any case, about 80% of the different variants have equivalents which are still available off-the-shelf... repairing a mains filter assembly really is pointless IMO. In the other 20% of cases, you can usually make minor modifications to the wiring (usually by adding/removing wire links) to allow the use of a standard filter module. The Solartron 7150Plus bench DMM is a good example of this. The stock filter module is a Schaffner part which is basically unobtainable on the UK market at a reasonable price (RS did sell them at one point, for ?50 plus VAT each). The cheapest fix (and IMO still a valid fix because it's reversible) is to get the wiremap for the Schaffner AC module, jumper the relevant voltage-select wires using Faston tabs and wire, and connect the now-loose L/N/E lines to the back of the new filter module. For safety, cover any exposed AC-level metalwork or wiring with heatshrink. You lose voltage selection, but gain a working DMM... To reverse the bodge -- cut off the heatshrink, unplug the tabs, and plug in a Schaffner voltage-switching filter module... Any port in a storm, right? -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From oe5ewl at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 15:46:47 2011 From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 21:46:47 +0100 Subject: KLH10 Status / any1 tried to compile on Windows? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't want to open another repository if this disturbs someone. Preferably I'd consult Tim about the Idea KLH-10 Port and/or Repository as I do not like to "take over" someone elses code by myself (this is seen fairly often out there in the internet). Maybe he's got an idea? The distribution site should not be changed in any way! If there are some people collaborating the port should be done fairly soon. Regards, Wolfgang -- Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL Operating System Research Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com Homepage: www.eichberger.org 2011/3/22 Richard : > > In article , > ? ?Rich Alderson writes: > >> From: Richard >> >> > I'd suggest hosting the source code on codeplex or sharing >> > repositories with Mercurial. ?That way you can make local commits >> > and track your changes more readily, as well as share those changes >> > with others. >> >> I'd suggest that that is a very bad idea. ?There is already a well-known >> repository for KLH10, to wit, Tim Shoppa's trailing-edge.com site. ?I can't >> imagine that Tim would mind hosting a Windows port, and I'd hate to see >> repositories for this proliferate. > > OK, but the problem that I've seen with most of these "repositories" > is that they are monolithic tarball distributions. ?They aren't places > where people can work collaboratively. ?Specifically, if you're > talking about: , this isn't a place > where we can collaborate on the code, its simply a distribution point > for a tarball. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > ? > > ? ? ?Legalize Adulthood! > From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Tue Mar 22 16:26:48 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 22:26:48 +0100 Subject: HP150 Touchscreen again In-Reply-To: References: <000101cbe812$ba3a2820$2eae7860$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at Mar 21, 11 10:55:38 pm Message-ID: <001a01cbe8d7$dd86c200$98944600$@xs4all.nl> > > > > As you may know I updated my 16500A to a 16500C version with a > > > > upgrade kit from Agilent. > > > > Upgrading included changing the touchscreen PCB, so I've an > > > > A-version which I don't use or maybe one day will part out. > > > > > > Why do you chnage the touchscreen PCB? Is the new one a higher > > > resolution > > or > > > something? > > > > When updating you get a new front which includes the touchscreen parts.. > > Oh right... Are tyhe 2 touchscreen PCBs the same? If not, what is the difference? > If they are the saem, why didn't the upgrade get you to move the old PCB to the > new front paneL? The new front plate has one function extra, a knob to disable the touchscreen. > Do you happen to knwo anything abot uthe itnerface on these touchscreends? > The HP150 (original, 9" CRT) has a custom interface consisitng of a clock line, > sync line and data line, on a 10 pin (2*5) header plug. The touchscreen PCB > contains all standard chips, mostly 4000-series CMOS. The interface is combined with the front panel knobs hp-hil and rotation resolver. The interface is a hp-hil device says the selftest, most of the decoding has been done by a mcu9818 microcontroller. > Sure, and if I can't find a suitable replacement at Farnell or somwewhere, I may > get back to you. But I don't think it's going to be too difficult to find something > that will work. > > -tony -Rik From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 16:37:18 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 17:37:18 -0400 Subject: Anyone have a Fluke 9010A Z-80 pod to sell? Message-ID: Hi, All, I know that pods are rarer than base units, but I thought I'd ask if anyone had a spare 9010A Z-80 pod to sell. Lately, I've been using my 6502 pod (which I got from another list member some time ago) to debug Static PET issues, and it looks like I might be helping to restore some vintage arcade machines including a Gorf (which is Z-80 based) and I'd like a pod to match. I'd also probably use it to track down a memory problem I have with a TRS-80 Model III that seems stuck at 32K (testing the RAM in a working Dynamic PET is not revealing any bad chips). So before hitting certain auction sites and such, I wanted to check here first. Thanks, -ethan From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Mar 22 16:37:35 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 10:37:35 +1300 Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - No longer an issue References: Message-ID: > Words like 'wimp' and 'boardswapper' are going through my mind :-). > Yes. Guilty as charged. (-: However, I give myself credit for at least attempting a repair. My main aim in this hobby is to have working units to display to others, talk about and play with when I want to. It's the design and historical elements I'm interested in, and tinkering with the hardware is a (usually unavoidable) means to an end. It's good that there are people who are passionate about hardware and repair though. They have deep knowledge that's valuable in keeping these geriatric machines running. Terry (Tez) From legalize at xmission.com Tue Mar 22 17:14:08 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 16:14:08 -0600 Subject: KLH10 Status / any1 tried to compile on Windows? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Maybe we're using two different meanings for the word 'repository'. I'm using it in a version control system sense: a place where you can look at different versions of the source files and create patches, test local changes, etc. When you create a project on codeplex/github/google code/etc., you generally get a source code repository configured for a version control system like subversion, mercurial, git, etc. Setting up a project on a project hosting site isn't as important as setting up version control so that you can i) isolate your changes, ii) experiment with changes that you might want to undo should they not work out, and iii) create patches that you can submit to the KLH10 maintainers. With mercurial, its easy to create a local repository and share it with someone (i.e. me) without going to the trouble of creating a project on a hosting site like codeplex. I honestly don't understand why the SIMH folks don't have a publicly accessible source code repository and only have tarballs. It makes contributing source code changes harder than it should be. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Mar 22 17:48:37 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 22:48:37 -0000 Subject: KLH10 Status / any1 tried to compile on Windows? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004201cbe8e3$499f54b0$dcddfe10$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard > Sent: 22 March 2011 22:14 > To: cctalk > Subject: Re: KLH10 Status / any1 tried to compile on Windows? > > Maybe we're using two different meanings for the word 'repository'. > I'm using it in a version control system sense: a place where you can look at > different versions of the source files and create patches, test local changes, > etc. > > When you create a project on codeplex/github/google code/etc., you > generally get a source code repository configured for a version control > system like subversion, mercurial, git, etc. > > Setting up a project on a project hosting site isn't as important as setting up > version control so that you can i) isolate your changes, > ii) experiment with changes that you might want to undo should they not > work out, and iii) create patches that you can submit to the KLH10 > maintainers. > > With mercurial, its easy to create a local repository and share it with > someone (i.e. me) without going to the trouble of creating a project on a > hosting site like codeplex. > > I honestly don't understand why the SIMH folks don't have a publicly > accessible source code repository and only have tarballs. It makes > contributing source code changes harder than it should be. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! I have to agree with that last comment. Perhaps it would be better to open that discussion on the SIMH list though. Regards Rob From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 18:18:28 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 20:18:28 -0300 Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - No longer an issue References: Message-ID: <01A0B0A768DD41FC98A4A1F8DF2E1A6A@portajara> > I guess that's where I differ from many people here. I don't just want > working classic computers, I want to know how they work, and I want to > know how to really cure any faults I come across. There is a place for both of them in heaven :) From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Mar 22 18:53:57 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 16:53:57 -0700 Subject: KLH10 Status / any1 tried to compile on Windows? In-Reply-To: <004201cbe8e3$499f54b0$dcddfe10$@ntlworld.com> References: <004201cbe8e3$499f54b0$dcddfe10$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4D893695.9070100@bitsavers.org> On 3/22/11 3:48 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > Perhaps it would be better to open > that discussion on the SIMH list though. > I think it would be an issue with KLH and Mark Crispin and not SIMH. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Mar 22 19:31:34 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 17:31:34 -0700 Subject: KLH10 Status / any1 tried to compile on Windows? In-Reply-To: <004201cbe8e3$499f54b0$dcddfe10$@ntlworld.com> References: <004201cbe8e3$499f54b0$dcddfe10$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4D893F66.2090004@bitsavers.org> > I honestly don't understand why the SIMH folks don't have a publicly >> accessible source code repository and only have tarballs. There is essentially one code maintainer, Bob Supnik. Everything filters through him. About the only large-scale open source simulation effort is MESS. There are dozens of people actively working on that for dozens of systems. http://mess.dorando.at/svn/ From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 22 20:30:31 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 18:30:31 -0700 Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - No longer an issue In-Reply-To: <4D88BC46.6050108@bitsavers.org> References: <808601.54562.qm@web121618.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4D88BC46.6050108@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4D894D37.5030302@brouhaha.com> Al Kossow wrote: > The information in http://bitsavers.org/pdf/apple/disk may be of interest. Note that "Nisha" was to be a 20MB replacement for Widget, but never shipped, so the extended command set described in the Nisha document is of hypothetical interest only. The Profile and Widget documents should be more accurate with regard to actual shipped products. Eric From legalize at xmission.com Tue Mar 22 22:52:17 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 21:52:17 -0600 Subject: KLH10 Status / any1 tried to compile on Windows? In-Reply-To: <4D893695.9070100@bitsavers.org> References: <004201cbe8e3$499f54b0$dcddfe10$@ntlworld.com> <4D893695.9070100@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4D893695.9070100 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > On 3/22/11 3:48 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > > Perhaps it would be better to open > > that discussion on the SIMH list though. > > > > I think it would be an issue with KLH and Mark Crispin and not SIMH. Yes, my fingers typed SIMH when I meant KLH instead. Its the same story in each case, although I don't know if the principals involved are the same. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Mar 22 22:53:39 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 21:53:39 -0600 Subject: KLH10 Status / any1 tried to compile on Windows? In-Reply-To: <4D893F66.2090004@bitsavers.org> References: <004201cbe8e3$499f54b0$dcddfe10$@ntlworld.com> <4D893F66.2090004@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4D893F66.2090004 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > > I honestly don't understand why the SIMH folks don't have a publicly > >> accessible source code repository and only have tarballs. > > There is essentially one code maintainer, Bob Supnik. Everything filters > through him. Presumably the same is true with the KLH simulator. However, this is exactly my point: it doesn't encourage sharing the way most other open source projects do, even when those open source projects have a single maintainer. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Tue Mar 22 23:33:31 2011 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 04:33:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: CMD CDI-4240 DSSI-SCSI converter - help needed Message-ID: <314797.21822.qm@web29112.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi everybody, during the upcoming weeks, I'm going to migrate my web- and ftp-server from an Alphaserver 4100 to my VAX 4000-300 (running VMS). In order to obtain enough disk space for ftp combined with little energy consumption, I'd like to get to work this decent DSSI-SCSI converter from CMD. Problem is that the only documents, I found on bitsavers, are for the CDI-4000 with a different PCB, having less jumpers and connectors, plus being at different positions than on the board I have. Can anybody give me a little help with the jumper configuration of that thing ? Or better, have docs regarding jumper and connector meanings ? Exact model is : CDI-4240/AF with a LCD display at the front. Help is heavily appreciated and helps making the VAX as the new host for my web- and ftp-server a success ! Best regards, Pierre ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 02:25:21 2011 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 03:25:21 -0400 Subject: DEC Q-bus and compatable boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, I have three quick questions: 1. What processor options does the 11/23+ have on it? (I.e. is it just the plain 11/23 processor with MMU, or does it include the FFP and/or CIS cinstructions.) 2. Do you have an FPF-11 board? 3. How much is shipping to Canada (and will you make a discount for a relatively poor (both in terms of money and in terms of having a PDP-11) undergraduate university student)? Thanks, and cheers to you. Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove On 21 March 2011 22:06, Paul Anderson wrote: > Here is a partial list of DEC boards I have available. ?I have approximately > 100 DEC compatable boards, including Dilog and Emulex. ?Shipping is $10 for > one boarrd and $15 for two or more within the US. ? (Please inquire if > outside the US.) ?If you need anything not listed, please feel free to > contact me off list. > > > M3107 ? ? DHQ11 ? ? ?$30 > M7504 ? ? DEQNA ? ? $35 > M7546 ? ? TK50 ? ? ? ? $25 > M7559 ? ? TQK70 ? ? ? $50 > M7944 ? ? MSV11-B ? $20 > M7949 ? ? LAV11 ? ? ? $39 > M8943 ? ? DLV11-J ? ? $75 > M8044 ? ? MSV11-D ? $20 > M8186 ? ? 1123cpu ? ? $75 > M8189 ? ? 1123+ ? ? ? ?$125 > > > Thanks, Paul > From nick.allen at comcast.net Tue Mar 22 20:01:13 2011 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 20:01:13 -0500 Subject: FS: Televideo Terminal Message-ID: <4D894659.4000508@comcast.net> I have one left, last 2 sold for $150, this one has quite abit of yellowing and several lab stickers on it, therefore I am only asking $100. It is fully functional, buyer to pay for actual shipping (or free local pickup, I am in Chicago) From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Mar 23 05:57:00 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 11:57:00 +0100 (CET) Subject: IBM 1130 Message-ID: Hi everyone, I've transferred all IBM 1130 diagnostic decks and put them on our FTP server (ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/ibm1130/cards/diags). I've also added the several maintenance manuals for the IBM 1442 reader-punch to the docs directory. Christian From als at thangorodrim.de Wed Mar 23 09:38:59 2011 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 15:38:59 +0100 Subject: Ebay fee change as of 4/1 In-Reply-To: References: <4D865923.1040608@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20110323143859.GB6035@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 01:39:45AM -0800, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > > > > On 3/20/11 11:44 AM, "ben" wrote: > > > > > I got a COD package a few days ago. They took debit or check, > > but *not* cash! > > Ben. > > There's a damn good reason for that. Several years ago there was a rash of > armed robberies of UPS and USPS personnel by criminals trying for an easy > buck. The Swiss Post delivery folks are happy to accept cash around here and I never tried any other payment method. But then, I _am_ living in Switzerland, which is a very peaceful place. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From als at thangorodrim.de Wed Mar 23 09:34:59 2011 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 15:34:59 +0100 Subject: Ebay fee change as of 4/1 In-Reply-To: <4D861F0B.22806.D28772@cclist.sydex.com> References: <839732.1931.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4D865923.1040608@jetnet.ab.ca> <4D865D4D.9070603@neurotica.com> <4D861F0B.22806.D28772@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20110323143459.GA6035@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 at 03:36:43PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 20 Mar 2011 at 16:02, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On 3/20/11 3:44 PM, ben wrote: > > That drive light keeps flashing even when I just press > > the keys writing this. > > Funny you should mention that. I've got a portable Hitachi 2TB eSATA > drive that I use as a backup with various systems. Today I was doing > a backup from my wife's system. The backup finished, but the drive > was still (audibly) clunking away. I shut down the system, but left > the drive powered up. It continued its conversation with the aether, > unabated. I powered the connected system back up and things looked > normal. Eventually after about 5 minutes, the activity stopped. > > No indication of errors; the backup looks fine. > > The cache on this thing couldn't have been THAT big. Any idea what > was going on? Automatic background surface scan most likely. One thing to try would be: - make sure the drive is idle (unmounted) - trigger (via SMART) a long self test - listen to the noise from the drive, the probably sound similiar Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 23 11:10:15 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 09:10:15 -0700 Subject: Ebay fee change as of 4/1 In-Reply-To: <20110323143459.GA6035@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <839732.1931.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <4D861F0B.22806.D28772@cclist.sydex.com>, <20110323143459.GA6035@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4D89B8F7.13129.1A4874@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Mar 2011 at 15:34, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > Automatic background surface scan most likely. One thing to try would > be: > - make sure the drive is idle (unmounted) > - trigger (via SMART) a long self test > - listen to the noise from the drive, the probably sound similiar It probably is, or some auto-recalibrate mechanism (the drive did this even with the host system power off). A lot of people have apparently encountered this and it's apparently not a problem. --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Mar 23 13:24:02 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 13:24:02 -0500 Subject: FS: Televideo Terminal In-Reply-To: <4D894659.4000508@comcast.net> References: <4D894659.4000508@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 8:01 PM, Nick Allen wrote: > I have one left, last 2 sold for $150, this one has quite abit of yellowing > and several lab stickers on it, therefore I am only asking $100. > > It is fully functional, buyer to pay for actual shipping (or free local > pickup, I am in Chicago) Nick - what model is the TVI term? From evan at snarc.net Wed Mar 23 13:40:44 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 14:40:44 -0400 Subject: Jean Bartik Message-ID: <4D8A3EAC.7070902@snarc.net> Last of the original ENIAC programmers died this morning. :( http://blogs.computerworld.com/18018/jean_bartik_last_of_the_original_eniac_programmers_86 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 23 14:52:15 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 19:52:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Smoke From PSU Socket In-Reply-To: <4D8908C6.9000609@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Mar 22, 11 08:38:30 pm Message-ID: > > On 22/03/11 19:54, Tony Duell wrote: > > The type that looks like deep IEC socket > > behidd the panel is probably not repariable. > > In any case, about 80% of the different variants have equivalents which=20 > are still available off-the-shelf... repairing a mains filter assembly=20 > really is pointless IMO. In the other 20% of cases, you can usually make=20 It's not pointless if : You want to keep the machine as oriignal as possible by replcing the smallest part necessary ( for example a capaciotr rather than the complete module) It's one of the 20% or so you can't get easily. and you don't want to make any modifications to the machine to use an alternative You enjoy fixing thigns rather than replacing them. Rmember I routinely repairr cooling fans to component level. I've repaired switches and light bulbs too :-) > minor modifications to the wiring (usually by adding/removing wire=20 > links) to allow the use of a standard filter module. > > The Solartron 7150Plus bench DMM is a good example of this. The stock=20 > filter module is a Schaffner part which is basically unobtainable on the=20 > UK market at a reasonable price (RS did sell them at one point, for =A350= > =20 > plus VAT each). I assume this is one of the modules with voltage selector contacts? Is it one of the ones with a little PCB under the fuse that fits several ways round? Or one of the ones with a plastic camshaft you cna fit in sevearl orientations? Or what? I've found that the filter units on those tend to come apart fairly easily -- they're not potted and the metal can is easy to unsolder. You cna then repair/replace the filter. > Any port in a storm, right? Well, provided it;s not USB :-) (Sorry, couldn't resist) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 23 15:00:29 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 20:00:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP150 Touchscreen again In-Reply-To: <001a01cbe8d7$dd86c200$98944600$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at Mar 22, 11 10:26:48 pm Message-ID: > > Do you happen to knwo anything abot uthe itnerface on these touchscreends? > > The HP150 (original, 9" CRT) has a custom interface consisitng of a clock > line, > > sync line and data line, on a 10 pin (2*5) header plug. The touchscreen > PCB > > contains all standard chips, mostly 4000-series CMOS. > > The interface is combined with the front panel knobs hp-hil and rotation > resolver. > The interface is a hp-hil device says the selftest, most of the decoding has > been done by a mcu9818 microcontroller. OK, that makes sesne. I assume there's the normal HP-HIL slave chip in there too. > > > > Sure, and if I can't find a suitable replacement at Farnell or somwewhere, > I may > > get back to you. But I don't think it's going to be too difficult to find > something > > that will work. It never fails to amaze me how easy it is to get spares for classic computers. Yo uwould ahve thougth that a spare LED for a touchscreen on the HP150 would be somewhat hard to find after more than 25 years. Well, as I said, I thought that RS and Farnell did something similar. For a laugh, I checked Maplin (hobbyist supply of components, limited range, rather like Radio Shack, alas). Amazingly they listed a side viewing IR LED. Even more amazing, the Maplin shop I was going to go past had 2 in stock. Of course I bought them. I fitted on in the touchscreen PCB and tried it on the tester again. Perfect. Then I put the whole HP150 back together again. The machine works fine, but I am having problems with the head motion of the internal 2674 printer (and which idiot decided that printer-out-of-paper should be a self-test failure? I spent quite a time trying to find 'real' problems....) Anyway, The machien si back together for the moment, I will look at the printer soon... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 23 15:05:12 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 20:05:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - No longer an issue In-Reply-To: from "Terry Stewart" at Mar 23, 11 10:37:35 am Message-ID: > However, I give myself credit for at least attempting a repair. My main aim And so you should!. I am quite sure you will feel the urge sometime to come back to this and have another go. And I'll hopefully be around when you do :-). > in this hobby is to have working units to display to others, talk about and > play with when I want to. It's the design and historical elements I'm No that I can understand. It's become something of a tradition at HPCC for me to drag along a slightly off-topic machine (desktop, not handheld, but sitll an HP devive) once a year, demonstrate it, adn take it to bits. You have doubtless seen the photos.. > interested in, and tinkering with the hardware is a (usually unavoidable) > means to an end. And that is where we differ. To me, tinkering with the hardware is the reason I collect classic computers. They;re less interesting to me when they work properly. Fortunately, there's 'room' in theis hobby for all sorts :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 23 15:07:27 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 20:07:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - No longer an issue In-Reply-To: <01A0B0A768DD41FC98A4A1F8DF2E1A6A@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Mar 22, 11 08:18:28 pm Message-ID: > > > I guess that's where I differ from many people here. I don't just want > > working classic computers, I want to know how they work, and I want to > > know how to really cure any faults I come across. > > There is a place for both of them in heaven :) > All the religions that I've come across require oyu to beleive in that religious system to get to their idea of heaven. As an agnostic, I don't meet any such criteria. So if there is a hereafter, I am going to end up in hades... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 23 15:12:21 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 20:12:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Ebay fee change as of 4/1 In-Reply-To: <20110323143859.GB6035@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> from "Alexander Schreiber" at Mar 23, 11 03:38:59 pm Message-ID: > > There's a damn good reason for that. Several years ago there was a rash of > > armed robberies of UPS and USPS personnel by criminals trying for an easy > > buck. > > The Swiss Post delivery folks are happy to accept cash around here and I > never tried any other payment method. But then, I _am_ living in Switzerland, > which is a very peaceful place. Last time (which admittedly was over a year ago) I had a parcel delivered by UPS with import duty to be paid on it, the driver told me he could accept cash or cheques, but not a credit or debit card. That may have changed by now. -tony From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Mar 23 16:54:13 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 21:54:13 +0000 Subject: Smoke From PSU Socket In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D8A6C05.7050603@philpem.me.uk> On 23/03/11 19:52, Tony Duell wrote: > It's one of the 20% or so you can't get easily. and you don't want to > make any modifications to the machine to use an alternative That would probably be the only situation I'd consider doing a rebuild on an AC filter module... > You enjoy fixing thigns rather than replacing them. Rmember I routinely > repairr cooling fans to component level. I've repaired switches and light > bulbs too :-) CFL "energy saving" bulbs or incandescents? > I assume this is one of the modules with voltage selector contacts? Is it > one of the ones with a little PCB under the fuse that fits several ways > round? Or one of the ones with a plastic camshaft you cna fit in sevearl > orientations? Or what? Plastic camshaft. The datasheet says you can change the voltage with fingers alone -- that's a load of bull. You need a screwdriver to get the cover open, and ideally a slightly smaller screwdriver to pry the camshaft out of the latch assembly. > I've found that the filter units on those tend to come apart fairly > easily -- they're not potted and the metal can is easy to unsolder. You > cna then repair/replace the filter. This one was -- IIRC -- welded to the metal frame. Opening it would have involved a lot of cutting and no guarantee that it would go back together in one piece. >> Any port in a storm, right? > > Well, provided it;s not USB :-) (Sorry, couldn't resist) What about FireWire or PCI-Express? :) (see what I did there? *GRIN* ) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Mar 23 18:03:00 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 20:03:00 -0300 Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - No longer an issue References: Message-ID: <95DF09308EBB4EF2BA39830F8200E543@portajara> >> > I guess that's where I differ from many people here. I don't just want >> > working classic computers, I want to know how they work, and I want to >> > know how to really cure any faults I come across. >> There is a place for both of them in heaven :) > All the religions that I've come across require oyu to beleive in that > religious system to get to their idea of heaven. As an agnostic, I don't > meet any such criteria. So if there is a hereafter, I am going to end up > in hades... Sorry Tony, I'll fix that. "there is a place for both of them in ($nice_place)" Satisfied? We serve well to serve always :) From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Mar 23 18:15:15 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 23:15:15 +0000 Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - No longer an issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D8A7F03.2050909@philpem.me.uk> On 23/03/11 20:05, Tony Duell wrote: > And that is where we differ. To me, tinkering with the hardware is the > reason I collect classic computers. They;re less interesting to me when > they work properly. I have a sign on my wall: IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FSCK WITH IT. IF IT *IS* BROKE, GET THE SCREWDRIVER! Right below it is another: DANGER BIG SCARY LASER DO NOT LOOK INTO BEAM WITH REMAINING EYE To one side is a whiteboard (!). Currently listing the best recorded and target times for capturing one entire 80tk DSHD disc using a DiscFerret and a 3.5in disc drive. And a to-do list. A big to-do list. The icing on the cake: a copy of the Xkcd "The Observable Universe, From Top to Bottom, On a Log Scale" poster. Geeky, but nicer than a boring patch of badly-painted plasterboard wall.... Don't even ask about the box of comics. Or the Great Wall of O'Reilly Books. Or the Even Bigger Box Of Elektor And Maplin Magazines From 1974 To Present Day... yeesh. "Hi, I'm Phil. I'm a geek and a hoarder. And my room is a total pig sty." -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Mar 23 18:28:36 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 18:28:36 -0500 Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - No longer an issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D8A8224.5060709@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >>> I guess that's where I differ from many people here. I don't just want >>> working classic computers, I want to know how they work, and I want to >>> know how to really cure any faults I come across. >> There is a place for both of them in heaven :) >> > > All the religions that I've come across require oyu to beleive in that > religious system to get to their idea of heaven. As an agnostic, I don't > meet any such criteria. So if there is a hereafter, I am going to end up > in hades... keep backing yourself up, and live forever. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 23 18:32:26 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 16:32:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - No longer an issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110323163042.G50372@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 23 Mar 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > All the religions that I've come across require oyu to beleive in that > religious system to get to their idea of heaven. As an agnostic, I don't > meet any such criteria. So if there is a hereafter, I am going to end up > in hades... At least we'll all be there together. Dante claimed that there were varying regions. "Dude! You're getting a Dell!" From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Mar 23 18:37:47 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 20:37:47 -0300 Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - No longer an issue References: <4D8A7F03.2050909@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <886BD9BE1F0F40EDA0B82DA66A87CCEB@portajara> > I have a sign on my wall: MeToobie! :D > IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FSCK WITH IT. > IF IT *IS* BROKE, GET THE SCREWDRIVER! Nah... IF IT AIN'T BROKE, GET THE SCREWDRIVER IF IT **IS** BROKE, HAVE FUN FIXING IT!!! :oD Greetings from Brazil Alexandre Souza From the Brothership of Disassemblers, thinkerers and fsckes :oD From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Mar 23 19:00:39 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 00:00:39 +0000 Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - No longer an issue In-Reply-To: <886BD9BE1F0F40EDA0B82DA66A87CCEB@portajara> References: <4D8A7F03.2050909@philpem.me.uk> <886BD9BE1F0F40EDA0B82DA66A87CCEB@portajara> Message-ID: <4D8A89A7.6050506@philpem.me.uk> On 23/03/11 23:37, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FSCK WITH IT. >> IF IT *IS* BROKE, GET THE SCREWDRIVER! > > Nah... > IF IT AIN'T BROKE, GET THE SCREWDRIVER > IF IT **IS** BROKE, HAVE FUN FIXING IT!!! > :oD OK, that one's better. But how about: IF IT AIN'T BROKE, FIGURE OUT HOW IT WORKS. IF IT **IS** BROKE, FIGURE OUT HOW IT WORKED, THEN FIX IT! > From the Brothership of Disassemblers, thinkerers and fsckes :oD "That word does not mean what you think it means." -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Mar 23 19:09:46 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 00:09:46 +0000 Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - No longer an issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D8A8BCA.1000204@philpem.me.uk> On 23/03/11 20:07, Tony Duell wrote: > All the religions that I've come across require oyu to beleive in that > religious system to get to their idea of heaven. As an agnostic, I don't > meet any such criteria. So if there is a hereafter, I am going to end up > in hades... How about this: * To get into heaven, you need to believe in $religionA or $religionB. * Everyone who doesn't believe in $religionA will go to Hell. * Equally, everyone who doesn't believe in $religionB will go to Hell. * You can't believe in both religions, because their requirements are in mutual conflicting. * Union of "people who don't follow religionA" and "people who don't follow religionB" = everyone. * Thus everyone is going to hell. * Now flip the argument around so that everyone goes to heaven... Now you have an impossibility: set of everyone going to heaven = set of everyone going to hell * This leaves the statements: Everyone goes to heaven Everyone goes to hell Which are mutually exclusive! "A curious game. The only way to win is not to play." (I wanted to put a "QED" in here, but couldn't find a good place for it...) If we're getting onto the subject of religion, I'll throw this in to the pan (with apologies to Jeff Dunham): "If I'm dead, where are my 40 virgins?" "Did your Book say the virgins would be female?" "...... Holy crap!" -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Mar 23 23:23:32 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 21:23:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: where the P112 kits are Message-ID: Feedle I were under the impression that the P112 kits from that last bit we didn't know existed were sent out in January. An email from someone wondering where his kit was the first hint that something was wrong. Here is the email I got from Feedle regarding this problem: ===begin quote=== I'll ship him a kit on Thursday. I don't have the spreadsheet handy: send me his address directly and I'll generate a label today for tomorrow's mail run. We may have a problem, however. So, I handed the kits to the "[Person] Friday/Executive Assistant" at the executive office suite I have my office at back in January. About a month ago, I noted that there is a new person at that desk. I didn't think much of it, but I remember overhearing a water cooler conversation about how the previous one was fired. I sent an E-Mail message yesterday to the EA role account asking if she could look in the USPS account to see when they were shipped and what the tracking numbers were. "Oh, you didn't hear?" is never a good thing when starting this sort of conversation. Apparently, the previous EA was fired in early February, precisely because she was so bad at her job that .. well, she wasn't doing it. So, the short of it is, there's no tracking numbers for the packages sent, if they were even sent at all. The only evidence that they have that the packages I gave them even existed is the fact that when I dropped them off she put them in the log for billing purposes (it's worth noting that my internal account was charged for the flat-rate postage). There is no record in either the Click N Ship account they use, nor in the paper logs they keep for packages that are hand-handled and metered with the conventional postage meter. Where the packages actually are is, at the moment, an exercise left to the reader. I'm now really worried: because according to my notes, that makes two out of the eight (?) people who ordered kits from you who haven't received them. In looking at the notes: I _DID_ ship Steve Hirsch a kit in that January shipment. I'm obviously not happy about this from the "services I'm paying for as a tenant in a fairly pricey executive office center" perspective. The Management has already assured me that they will compensate me somehow for the lost materials... but I stressed upon them that the worst part is the "one-of-a-kind" nature of the kits: that this was the tail end of a production run, and I don't have enough parts to just make more. Plus, there's the lost goodwill: you personally depended upon me to get those kits shipped out, and I probably let you down. Anyway, I'm going to meet with the office manager in a couple of hours to have a more in-depth conversation about what can be done about this. I'll keep you posted. ===end quote=== Since the email was sent, I had a phone conversation with Feedle about this. The kits were found stashed in a cupboard along with some seventy other packages this now ex office assistant never posted. So, you WILL get your kits. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From nick.allen at comcast.net Wed Mar 23 21:38:40 2011 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 21:38:40 -0500 Subject: FS: Televideo Terminal In-Reply-To: <4D894659.4000508@comcast.net> References: <4D894659.4000508@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4D8AAEB0.8060604@comcast.net> Model info: TVI-912C On 3/22/2011 8:01 PM, Nick Allen wrote: > I have one left, last 2 sold for $150, this one has quite abit of > yellowing and several lab stickers on it, therefore I am only asking > $100. > > It is fully functional, buyer to pay for actual shipping (or free > local pickup, I am in Chicago) > > From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Mar 24 06:04:30 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 03:04:30 -0800 Subject: No cash COD deliveries- was Re: Ebay fee change as of 4/1 In-Reply-To: <20110323143859.GB6035@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: On 3/23/11 6:38 AM, "Alexander Schreiber" wrote: > On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 01:39:45AM -0800, Geoffrey Reed wrote: >> >> >> >> On 3/20/11 11:44 AM, "ben" wrote: >> >>> >>> I got a COD package a few days ago. They took debit or check, >>> but *not* cash! >>> Ben. >> >> There's a damn good reason for that. Several years ago there was a rash of >> armed robberies of UPS and USPS personnel by criminals trying for an easy >> buck. > > The Swiss Post delivery folks are happy to accept cash around here and I > never tried any other payment method. But then, I _am_ living in Switzerland, > which is a very peaceful place. > > Kind regards, > Alex. That could very well be. I was working at UPS when they stopped accepting cash here in the area of the US I live in. there was a driver shot by a robber for $250 ish in cash that he had :( From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Mar 24 06:46:19 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 07:46:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: where the P112 kits are In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Mar 2011, David Griffith wrote: > Feedle I were under the impression that the P112 kits from that last bit we > didn't know existed were sent out in January. An email from someone > wondering where his kit was the first hint that something was wrong. Here is > the email I got from Feedle regarding this problem: > > ===begin quote=== (snip) > Anyway, I'm going to meet with the office manager in a couple of hours to > have a more in-depth conversation about what can be done about this. I'll > keep you posted. > > ===end quote=== > > Since the email was sent, I had a phone conversation with Feedle about this. > The kits were found stashed in a cupboard along with some seventy other > packages this now ex office assistant never posted. So, you WILL get your > kits. Wow. I'm glad this ended well! Just can't find good help nowadays... (using grumpy old man voice). Steve -- From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Mar 24 08:00:23 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 08:00:23 -0500 Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - No longer an issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D8B4067.7000308@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: > It's become something of a tradition at HPCC > for me to drag along a slightly off-topic machine (desktop, not handheld, > but sitll an HP devive) once a year, demonstrate it, adn take it to bits. > You have doubtless seen the photos.. Can you drag along one of HP's more modern printers and take it to bits with an enormous hammer? I think I'd like to see photos of that :-) From legalize at xmission.com Thu Mar 24 10:46:50 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 09:46:50 -0600 Subject: FS: Televideo Terminal In-Reply-To: <4D8AAEB0.8060604@comcast.net> References: <4D894659.4000508@comcast.net> <4D8AAEB0.8060604@comcast.net> Message-ID: In article <4D8AAEB0.8060604 at comcast.net>, Nick Allen writes: > Model info: TVI-912C Pictures? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Mar 24 14:12:43 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 12:12:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - No longer an issue In-Reply-To: <4D8B4067.7000308@gmail.com> References: <4D8B4067.7000308@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Mar 2011, Jules Richardson wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: >> It's become something of a tradition at HPCC for me to drag along a >> slightly off-topic machine (desktop, not handheld, but sitll an HP devive) >> once a year, demonstrate it, adn take it to bits. You have doubtless seen >> the photos.. > > Can you drag along one of HP's more modern printers and take it to bits with > an enormous hammer? I think I'd like to see photos of that :-) Stick an M80 in one of those cheapie inkjets. That should take it to bits in fairly short order. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 24 16:38:41 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 21:38:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Smoke From PSU Socket In-Reply-To: <4D8A6C05.7050603@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Mar 23, 11 09:54:13 pm Message-ID: > > You enjoy fixing thigns rather than replacing them. Rmember I routinely > > repairr cooling fans to component level. I've repaired switches and light > > bulbs too :-) > > CFL "energy saving" bulbs or incandescents? Samll incandescent filament bulbs. I thought I'd mentioend this before. It was a bulb with a difficult-to-find cap, so I broke the old glass (containing the burnt-out filamanet) out of the cap, cleaned up the latter, and soldered a wire-ended bulb of the right rating to it. > > I've found that the filter units on those tend to come apart fairly > > easily -- they're not potted and the metal can is easy to unsolder. You > > cna then repair/replace the filter. > > This one was -- IIRC -- welded to the metal frame. Opening it would have > involved a lot of cutting and no guarantee that it would go back > together in one piece. Given that it was useless anyway, I think I would have tried cutting the end off the filter section. You migth have been able to extract the defective components and wire in standard filter module (thus keeoign the votlage selector feature of the original). I have come across these units on some HP devices. The Thinkjet printer and the HP9817 computer spring to mind. There are several versions of the camshaft, one just operates one of the contacts fopr 115V/230V switching of an SMPSU, the other operates all the contacts for configuring a 0-120 and 0-100-120 priamry mains transformer for 100V, 120V, 220V and 240V. The Thinkjet does that, and the service manual doesn't explain it (the one on my shelf has an extra sheet in it now giving the wiring..) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 24 17:12:33 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 22:12:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - No longer an issue In-Reply-To: <4D8A8BCA.1000204@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Mar 24, 11 00:09:46 am Message-ID: > > On 23/03/11 20:07, Tony Duell wrote: > > All the religions that I've come across require oyu to beleive in that > > religious system to get to their idea of heaven. As an agnostic, I don't > > meet any such criteria. So if there is a hereafter, I am going to end up > > in hades... > > How about this: > > * To get into heaven, you need to believe in $religionA or $religionB. > > * Everyone who doesn't believe in $religionA will go to Hell. > > * Equally, everyone who doesn't believe in $religionB will go to Hell. > > * You can't believe in both religions, because their requirements are in > mutual conflicting. > > * Union of "people who don't follow religionA" and "people who don't > follow religionB" = everyone. > > * Thus everyone is going to hell. > > * Now flip the argument around so that everyone goes to heaven... Now > you have an impossibility: Ah no... There are plenty of $religionA's which say non-beleivers will go to hell, and by extension, since the requirements of $religionB are mutually exclusive ith those of $religionA, all followes of $religionB will go to hell. I don;t know of any $religionA which says that all people who do not follow $rleigionB (even if they'e agnostics, atheists, whatever) will go to heaven. I don;t think you can 'flip the arguemnt' -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 24 16:55:29 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 21:55:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - No longer an issue In-Reply-To: <4D8A7F03.2050909@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Mar 23, 11 11:15:15 pm Message-ID: > > On 23/03/11 20:05, Tony Duell wrote: > > And that is where we differ. To me, tinkering with the hardware is the > > reason I collect classic computers. They;re less interesting to me when > > they work properly. > > I have a sign on my wall: > > IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FSCK WITH IT. You mean 'If it ain't broek, break it so that you can get the screwdriver on it' :-) > IF IT *IS* BROKE, GET THE SCREWDRIVER! > Don't even ask about the box of comics. Or the Great Wall of O'Reilly > Books. Or the Even Bigger Box Of Elektor And Maplin Magazines From 1974 > To Present Day... yeesh. In my case, the _walls_ of things like an almost complete run of Poole and Molloy (Radio and Televison Servicing) from 1952 to 1981, databooks going back to the 1940s, service manuals, more service manauls, and evne more service manuals, books on just about every electrical and electornic subject, and so on. Did I mentioned I had a few books? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 24 16:57:46 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 21:57:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - No longer an issue In-Reply-To: <4D8A8224.5060709@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Mar 23, 11 06:28:36 pm Message-ID: > keep backing yourself up, and live forever. I always liked Raymond Smullyan's method of being immortal : 1) Always tell the truth 2) Say 'I will repeat this statement tommorrow' :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 24 16:59:33 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 21:59:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - No longer an issue In-Reply-To: <20110323163042.G50372@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Mar 23, 11 04:32:26 pm Message-ID: > Dante claimed that there were varying regions. > "Dude! You're getting a Dell!" Yes, but with all of eternity to hack it, I might be able to turn it into something useful. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 24 17:36:16 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 22:36:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - No longer an issue In-Reply-To: <4D8B4067.7000308@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Mar 24, 11 08:00:23 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > It's become something of a tradition at HPCC > > for me to drag along a slightly off-topic machine (desktop, not handheld, > > but sitll an HP devive) once a year, demonstrate it, adn take it to bits. > > You have doubtless seen the photos.. > > Can you drag along one of HP's more modern printers and take it to bits > with an enormous hammer? I think I'd like to see photos of that :-) I forgot to mention that another part of the tradition (which so far has never been broken) is that I put it all back togeterh again and have it working at the end of the meeting :-) The only printer I've eer done was the 7245 printer/plotter. And that is sufficiently interesting and well made that I didn't want to use a hamemr on it. I may well do things like the 9866 and 2631 sometime, again, those are interesting and well made, so I'd use a screwdriver, not a hammer, to take them apart. I can fully understnad wanting to take a hammer to many modern HP products, alas :-( You're welcome to join HPCC and do this, provided you don't spread toner or ink around the room. -tony From tosteve at yahoo.com Thu Mar 24 21:02:59 2011 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 19:02:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM system/32 for sale - Omaha, NE Message-ID: <17317.30324.qm@web110609.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I am passing this info on - I have no connection or further info: ----------------------- Dave has for sale what looks like a complete IBM System/32 computer system near Omaha, NE. It's describe as "From January 1975 - a low-end business computer." Here's the IBM webpage: http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/rochester/rochester_4017.html See Dave's many fine photos of his system here: http://picasaweb.google.com/IBMSystem32/ Contact HIM at: ibmsystem32 at gmail.com ----------------------- From lproven at gmail.com Thu Mar 24 21:13:13 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 02:13:13 +0000 Subject: need a Pentium 75 and heatsink In-Reply-To: <915796.23677.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <915796.23677.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 5 March 2011 21:16, Chris M wrote: > hope this isn't ot > > if you have one in your stash, let me know Can do, I think. Contact me offlist, if you want - details in my .sig. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Mar 26 16:58:56 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 14:58:56 -0700 Subject: Free: Various Mac gear (Seattle) Message-ID: <4D8E61A0.3010202@mail.msu.edu> As I continue to clean, I continue to unearth stuff I no longer have too much of a need for. For example, I have no idea why I have 10 classic-form-factor Macintoshes. Sure, they're cute, but perhaps ten is too many? Perhaps you would like one of them? Here they are: - Mac 512Ke - Needs repair (analog board needs some TLC). Someone at some point hacked the rear case up in order to fit a Mac Plus motherboard in there (different port arrangement). Otherwise, a fine looking Mac (yellowed as they all seem to be.) I can provide this with both the 512K board and the Plus board, if you want. - Mac SE - No hard drive or floppy, analog board needs repair, serious screen burn-in, and the case is fairly yellowed. No case screws. Looks like 4mb of memory. - Mac Classic - In great shape (no yellowing), 4mb RAM, 80mb drive, currently has System 7.5 on it. Screen size vacillates a bit on disk access, perhaps a power supply problem? - Mac Classic II - In great external condition (no yellowing at all) but shows signs of bad RAM at startup (vertical bars on the display). I cannot find my mac-cracking Torx wrench or I'd open it up and verify what it's got in it. Screen looks nice, drive spins up... I also have a pair of spare Mac SE boards. I do not know if they work, but I see no reason why not. They look to be fully populated with 4mb RAM, each. No keyboards or mice are included with these (oddly enough, I find myself without any to spare...) Anyone interested? I'll be donating these to RE-PC in Seattle next weekend if there are no interested parties here. I'd prefer local pickup, but I could probably be convinced to ship these, since they're pretty small and easy to pack... - Josh From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat Mar 26 14:04:54 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 12:04:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Unusual CMD SCSI thing... Anyone know what this is? Message-ID: <564706.63659.qm@web121611.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> So, in a recent pile-o-stuff, I acquired this SCSI box. The box itself is a generic two bay SCSI enclosure, but inside is mounted some kind of bus interface devices. It's a single circuit board, on a frame that mounts in a half height 5 1/4" bay. The face has a little two line LCD, and some buttons and lights. The board itself is made by CMD. Seems to be model CSB-2200/SDS. The board has what appears to be a SCSI input, and two SCSI outputs. The board contains three NCR 53C90B SCSI chips. Powering the device up, it announces itself as SCEA/S on the LCD. Now, from fiddling with the thing, and looking at what it contains, it *appears* to be some sort of SCSI-SCSI bridge, communicating with two separate busses, and allowing one external bus to use them. But I don't know. Searching on the model number have failed to turn up a manual. Searches for SCEA/S invariably turns up articles about various lawsuits that Sony Computer Entertainment of America have filed against their customers for using devices they purchased in ways that Sony doesn't like. So. Any ideas? I took some pictures: http://i.imgur.com/o9X6s.jpg http://i.imgur.com/TzV67.jpg http://i.imgur.com/SQN0b.jpg -Ian From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat Mar 26 08:25:42 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 09:25:42 -0400 Subject: Jupiter ACE PCBs at N8VEM Message-ID: <323D27025B9247D69E702675CAC08CEB@andrewdesktop> Hi! One of the N8VEM builders (Sergio) has made a home brew computer that is compatible with the Jupiter ACE. He would like to know who else would like to get PCBs. Please see the N8VEM mailing list for more details. http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem/browse_thread/thread/92dffe470cf5f8a8# On a completely different topic Another N8VEM builder (Sergey) has made a home brew XT compatible ISA board He would like to know who would be interested in PCBs. http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem/browse_thread/thread/e39d06eb9d4518a3 Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Mar 26 04:14:59 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 09:14:59 -0000 Subject: Smoke From PSU Socket In-Reply-To: <000601cbe89a$b698b5a0$23ca20e0$@ntlworld.com> References: <4D8809A6.5020302@gmail.com> <000601cbe89a$b698b5a0$23ca20e0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <002601cbeb96$4bab4b50$e301e1f0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > Sent: 22 March 2011 14:09 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Smoke From PSU Socket > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson > > Sent: 22 March 2011 02:30 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Smoke From PSU Socket > > > > Shoppa, Tim wrote: > > >> Also I don't know why the socket shorted, if it *was* wet then > > >> perhaps I could plug it in again, but I am very doubtful that this > > >> would be a good idea. Should I just be thinking of replacing the > socket? > > > > > > Many "IEC sockets" are more than just sockets, and incorporate EMI > > > suppression components as well. The euphemism becomes "power entry > > > module" instead of "socket". The EMI suppression components > > > (especially capacitors) in them are specced for AC line voltage > > > applications and UL rated such, but they still let out their magic > > > smoke > > every so often :-). > > > > I was wondering that, too. I've seen plenty of such sockets that have > > a > metal > > can on the inside of the case containing suppression components, and > > have seen more than one fail - result being that the smoke works its > > way out > via > > the external power cord pins. It's so long since I've been inside a > > DELNI > that > > I don't remember if they have these (or if they're just a plain ol' > socket) > > > > > Even if it's just a socket, some debris can get in there during > > > storage, you plug it in, the debris trips a fuse and vaporizes, and > > > all you're left with is a charred socket. > > > > Maybe the power cord, even - damaged contacts or internal wiring, and > > plugging it in shorted things out? > > I have closed the box again, but I seem to remember the socket did indeed > have a covering, presumably with components inside. Should I consider > replacing the whole socket, or is it possible to repair the individual > components inside? Assuming of course that the damage is not too great. > > Regards > > Rob I have found the time to open up the DELNI again. The module is a Schaffner 323 6/05. It looks very similar to the FN9222 here: http://www.schaffner.com/components/en/product/productL22.asp?level=3$1$2&la nguage_id=12. Should I be able to substitute the failed one for a modern one, such as the FN9222? Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Mar 25 18:52:48 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 23:52:48 -0000 Subject: MicroVAX 3100 Model 95 Damaging SIMMs? References: <008201cbe4f4$153cf260$3fb6d720$@ntlworld.com> <008301cbe4f8$36678f50$a336adf0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <000b01cbeb47$c0701f50$41505df0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Rob Jarratt [mailto:robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com] > Sent: 25 March 2011 23:22 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: MicroVAX 3100 Model 95 Damaging SIMMs? > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard > > Sent: 18 March 2011 02:56 > > To: cctalk > > Subject: Re: MicroVAX 3100 Model 95 Damaging SIMMs? > > > > > > In article <008301cbe4f8$36678f50$a336adf0$@ntlworld.com>, > > "Rob Jarratt" writes: > > > > > No I have not, sounds like that is my next step, although I don't > > > think I have the equipment to check if the PSU is operating to spec, > > > I can visually check components. > > > > Supply voltages can be checked with a simple voltmeter. With dummy > > resistor loads on the PSU you can check current supplied by measuring > > the voltage across the resistor load. > > -- > > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for > > download > > > /> > > > > Legalize Adulthood! > > I have just been checking the outputs from the PSU and was wondering how > "good" they are. Here is what I measured: > > On the standard Molex connector the 5V output is around 5.3V, the 12V > output is pretty much dead on. On the CPU power connector I measured > these voltages: > > 5.0V > 5.3V > 5.3V > -12.46V > -5.98V > 5.31V > 12.04V > 5.31V > > I am not sure what the nominal voltages are supposed to be on this > connector (the -5.98 looks a bit suspicious) and how much out of tolerance > they are. How do these voltages look? > > Regards > > Rob Actually I just found some info on the PSU label, it says V1 +5.1V V2 +12.1V V3 +3.3V V4 -12 V V5 -9V Some of the voltages I measured are a long way from that. I certainly did not measure 3.3V or anything close anywhere. Of course I am not sure which of the pins I measured should be 3.3V and little clue which one it might be except perhaps for the one that I measured at 5.0V which is only because it is numerically closest. Should I be looking at replacing capacitors as suggested, would that be the cause, or is it going to be something else entirely? Having inspected the capacitors there is no *visual* sign of anything wrong. Thanks Rob From legalize at xmission.com Fri Mar 25 17:27:21 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 16:27:21 -0600 Subject: Don't buy from ebay seller carp-o-matic Message-ID: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Mar 25 18:22:27 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 23:22:27 -0000 Subject: MicroVAX 3100 Model 95 Damaging SIMMs? In-Reply-To: References: <008201cbe4f4$153cf260$3fb6d720$@ntlworld.com> <008301cbe4f8$36678f50$a336adf0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <000601cbeb43$82ebf8b0$88c3ea10$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard > Sent: 18 March 2011 02:56 > To: cctalk > Subject: Re: MicroVAX 3100 Model 95 Damaging SIMMs? > > > In article <008301cbe4f8$36678f50$a336adf0$@ntlworld.com>, > "Rob Jarratt" writes: > > > No I have not, sounds like that is my next step, although I don't > > think I have the equipment to check if the PSU is operating to spec, I > > can visually check components. > > Supply voltages can be checked with a simple voltmeter. With dummy > resistor loads on the PSU you can check current supplied by measuring the > voltage across the resistor load. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! I have just been checking the outputs from the PSU and was wondering how "good" they are. Here is what I measured: On the standard Molex connector the 5V output is around 5.3V, the 12V output is pretty much dead on. On the CPU power connector I measured these voltages: 5.0V 5.3V 5.3V -12.46V -5.98V 5.31V 12.04V 5.31V I am not sure what the nominal voltages are supposed to be on this connector (the -5.98 looks a bit suspicious) and how much out of tolerance they are. How do these voltages look? Regards Rob From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Mar 26 23:54:33 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 21:54:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Free: Various Mac gear (Seattle) In-Reply-To: <4D8E61A0.3010202@mail.msu.edu> from Josh Dersch at "Mar 26, 11 02:58:56 pm" Message-ID: <201103270454.p2R4sXIo005938@floodgap.com> > As I continue to clean, I continue to unearth stuff I no longer have too > much of a need for. For example, I have no idea why I have 10 > classic-form-factor Macintoshes. Sure, they're cute, but perhaps ten is > too many? Perhaps you would like one of them? Here they are: You might post this on 68KMLA. I bet someone there would take these. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I have to floss my parakeet." ------------ From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Mar 27 06:35:30 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 03:35:30 -0800 Subject: Unusual CMD SCSI thing... Anyone know what this is? In-Reply-To: <564706.63659.qm@web121611.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 3/26/11 11:04 AM, "Mr Ian Primus" wrote: > So, in a recent pile-o-stuff, I acquired this SCSI box. The box itself is a > generic two bay SCSI enclosure, but inside is mounted some kind of bus > interface devices. It's a single circuit board, on a frame that mounts in a > half height 5 1/4" bay. The face has a little two line LCD, and some buttons > and lights. The board itself is made by CMD. Seems to be model CSB-2200/SDS. > > The board has what appears to be a SCSI input, and two SCSI outputs. The board > contains three NCR 53C90B SCSI chips. Powering the device up, it announces > itself as SCEA/S on the LCD. It looks familiar. I've usually come across them in 9 bay chassis, with a SCSI in and 8 devices (0-7) in the chassis, I'm pretty sure that it is a Raid controller that presents a single drive on the main SCSI channel. From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Mar 27 07:20:36 2011 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason, Sr.) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 08:20:36 -0400 Subject: Unusual CMD SCSI thing... Anyone know what this is? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201103270820.36348.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 27 March 2011 07:35:30 am Geoffrey Reed wrote: > > On 3/26/11 11:04 AM, "Mr Ian Primus" wrote: > > > So, in a recent pile-o-stuff, I acquired this SCSI box. The box itself is a > > generic two bay SCSI enclosure, but inside is mounted some kind of bus > > interface devices. It's a single circuit board, on a frame that mounts in a > > half height 5 1/4" bay. The face has a little two line LCD, and some buttons > > and lights. The board itself is made by CMD. Seems to be model CSB-2200/SDS. > > > > The board has what appears to be a SCSI input, and two SCSI outputs. The board > > contains three NCR 53C90B SCSI chips. Powering the device up, it announces > > itself as SCEA/S on the LCD. > > It looks familiar. I've usually come across them in 9 bay chassis, with a > SCSI in and 8 devices (0-7) in the chassis, I'm pretty sure that it is a > Raid controller that presents a single drive on the main SCSI channel. It's an interesting-looking gadget, to be sure. What I'd do is connect it to a linux box and see what the system saw... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Mar 27 10:20:32 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 10:20:32 -0500 Subject: Unusual CMD SCSI thing... Anyone know what this is? In-Reply-To: <564706.63659.qm@web121611.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <564706.63659.qm@web121611.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201103271522.p2RFLtED002032@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 02:04 PM 3/26/2011, you wrote: >So, in a recent pile-o-stuff, I acquired this SCSI box. The box itself is a generic two bay SCSI enclosure, Wow. Finally something that could be eBay'd as truly "R A R E". - John From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 27 11:21:29 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 12:21:29 -0400 Subject: Unusual CMD SCSI thing... Anyone know what this is? In-Reply-To: <564706.63659.qm@web121611.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <564706.63659.qm@web121611.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D8F6409.6060506@neurotica.com> On 3/26/11 3:04 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > So, in a recent pile-o-stuff, I acquired this SCSI box. The box > itself is a generic two bay SCSI enclosure, but inside is mounted > some kind of bus interface devices. It's a single circuit board, on a > frame that mounts in a half height 5 1/4" bay. The face has a little > two line LCD, and some buttons and lights. The board itself is made > by CMD. Seems to be model CSB-2200/SDS. > > The board has what appears to be a SCSI input, and two SCSI outputs. > The board contains three NCR 53C90B SCSI chips. Powering the device > up, it announces itself as SCEA/S on the LCD. > > Now, from fiddling with the thing, and looking at what it contains, > it *appears* to be some sort of SCSI-SCSI bridge, communicating with > two separate busses, and allowing one external bus to use them. But I > don't know. Searching on the model number have failed to turn up a > manual. Searches for SCEA/S invariably turns up articles about > various lawsuits that Sony Computer Entertainment of America have > filed against their customers for using devices they purchased in > ways that Sony doesn't like. > > > So. Any ideas? I took some pictures: > > http://i.imgur.com/o9X6s.jpg > http://i.imgur.com/TzV67.jpg > http://i.imgur.com/SQN0b.jpg I concur with the other folks who suggested that this may be a SCSI<->SCSI RAID controller. The eight LEDs on the front panel that look like activity indicators, the "FAULT" LED, the presence of an NVRAM chip (for configuration storage), and a user interface, all support this conclusion. And being SCSI<->SCSI, there's really not much else it could be. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Mar 27 11:37:57 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 11:37:57 -0500 Subject: Unusual CMD SCSI thing... Anyone know what this is? In-Reply-To: <4D8F6409.6060506@neurotica.com> References: <564706.63659.qm@web121611.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4D8F6409.6060506@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D8F67E5.4030306@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > I concur with the other folks who suggested that this may be a > SCSI<->SCSI RAID controller. The eight LEDs on the front panel that > look like activity indicators, the "FAULT" LED, the presence of an NVRAM > chip (for configuration storage), and a user interface, all support this > conclusion. And being SCSI<->SCSI, there's really not much else it > could be. Google (filtering out stuff from Sun and Sony) turns up a few hits for CMD SCSI CD jukebox and tape silo controllers - so rather than disk, it could be for something like that.. Maybe dumping the firmware (if Ian has suitable kit) and trawling it for human-readable strings would yield some useful info? cheers Jules From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 27 11:35:25 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 12:35:25 -0400 Subject: Unusual CMD SCSI thing... Anyone know what this is? In-Reply-To: <4D8F67E5.4030306@gmail.com> References: <564706.63659.qm@web121611.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4D8F6409.6060506@neurotica.com> <4D8F67E5.4030306@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4D8F674D.4090200@neurotica.com> On 3/27/11 12:37 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> I concur with the other folks who suggested that this may be a >> SCSI<->SCSI RAID controller. The eight LEDs on the front panel that >> look like activity indicators, the "FAULT" LED, the presence of an >> NVRAM chip (for configuration storage), and a user interface, all >> support this conclusion. And being SCSI<->SCSI, there's really not >> much else it could be. > > Google (filtering out stuff from Sun and Sony) turns up a few hits for > CMD SCSI CD jukebox and tape silo controllers - so rather than disk, it > could be for something like that.. Maybe dumping the firmware (if Ian > has suitable kit) and trawling it for human-readable strings would yield > some useful info? I suggest stepping through the menus as a first task. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From tshoppa at wmata.com Sun Mar 27 11:55:50 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 12:55:50 -0400 Subject: Unusual CMD SCSI thing... Anyone know what this is? Message-ID: > It's a single circuit board, on a frame that mounts in a half height 5 1/4" bay. The > face has a little two line LCD, and some buttons and lights. The board itself is made by CMD. > Seems to be model CSB-2200/SDS. A slightly later iteration of CMD RAID controller (note that this is, in the true SCSI sense, a "controller" and not a "host adapter with smarts") has a bit more condensed packaging and very similar user interface: http://cgi.ebay.com/CMD-CRD-5440-RAID-Controller-Device-P-N-CRD-005440-304-/280587387139#ht_3421wt_1141 Chronology: CRD-5440 was late 90's. I'm guessing the one you have is an earlier iteration, early 90's? Tim. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Mar 27 12:02:53 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 10:02:53 -0700 Subject: Unusual CMD SCSI thing... Anyone know what this is? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D8F6DBD.1020700@bitsavers.org> On 3/27/11 9:55 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> It's a single circuit board, on a frame that mounts in a half height 5 1/4" bay. The >> face has a little two line LCD, and some buttons and lights. The board itself is made by CMD. >> Seems to be model CSB-2200/SDS. > > A slightly later iteration of CMD RAID controller (note that this is, in the true SCSI sense, > a "controller" and not a "host adapter with smarts") has a bit more condensed > packaging and very similar user interface: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/CMD-CRD-5440-RAID-Controller-Device-P-N-CRD-005440-304-/280587387139#ht_3421wt_1141 > docs on this series will be on bitsavers shortly. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 27 12:22:07 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 13:22:07 -0400 Subject: Unusual CMD SCSI thing... Anyone know what this is? In-Reply-To: <4D8F6DBD.1020700@bitsavers.org> References: <4D8F6DBD.1020700@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4D8F723F.6000603@neurotica.com> On 3/27/11 1:02 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> A slightly later iteration of CMD RAID controller (note that this is, >> in the true SCSI sense, >> a "controller" and not a "host adapter with smarts") has a bit more >> condensed >> packaging and very similar user interface: >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/CMD-CRD-5440-RAID-Controller-Device-P-N-CRD-005440-304-/280587387139#ht_3421wt_1141 > > docs on this series will be on bitsavers shortly. Al rocks. That is all. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From roosmcd at dds.nl Sun Mar 27 13:00:59 2011 From: roosmcd at dds.nl (Michiel) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 20:00:59 +0200 Subject: FS. Siemens Nixdorf RM200c (Europe) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D8F7B5B.40402@dds.nl> Hello, Thinning out the collection a bit, I've got a Siemens Nixdorf RM200C for sale running Sinix. There's some information about this machine on http://www.linux-mips.org/wiki/RM_200 but basically it's a Unix machine from SNI with 133Mhz R47000 MIPS processor running their variant of Unix. I've also got a documentation set and two original sets of installation cd's for Sinix. Weight is not too bad for shipping, it's basically a standard desktop PC. with regards, Michiel From doc at vaxen.net Sun Mar 27 13:20:05 2011 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 13:20:05 -0500 Subject: FS. Siemens Nixdorf RM200c (Europe) In-Reply-To: <4D8F7B5B.40402@dds.nl> References: <4D8F7B5B.40402@dds.nl> Message-ID: <4D8F7FD5.7070306@vaxen.net> Michiel wrote: > Hello, > > Thinning out the collection a bit, I've got a Siemens Nixdorf RM200C > for sale running Sinix. There's some information about this machine on > http://www.linux-mips.org/wiki/RM_200 but basically it's a Unix machine > from SNI with 133Mhz R47000 MIPS processor running their variant of > Unix. I've also got a documentation set and two original sets of > installation cd's for Sinix. Weight is not too bad for shipping, it's > basically a standard desktop PC. Oh! Oh! Oh! I have a running RM300, but no installation media. Would you be willing to copy and test the install CDs? I'd be VERY happy to pay for your time & trouble. Doc From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 27 12:32:58 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 18:32:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Smoke From PSU Socket In-Reply-To: <002601cbeb96$4bab4b50$e301e1f0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Mar 26, 11 09:14:59 am Message-ID: > I have found the time to open up the DELNI again. The module is a Schaffner > 323 6/05. It looks very similar to the FN9222 here: > http://www.schaffner.com/components/en/product/productL22.asp?level=3$1$2&la And that looks like a very standard typoe of IEC320 plug with a built-in mains filter. It';s also a design that I've never tried to open to repair, because it's so common. The parameters that matter are the maximum voltage that the capacitors in the filter will stand (but I wouild be suprised if any wouldn't take 240V mains), and the maximum current that the inductor in the filter can carry. The latter should be more than the fuse rating in the device. But I can't believe DELNO takes that much current, so most filters will be OK. > nguage_id=12. Should I be able to substitute the failed one for a modern > one, such as the FN9222? I would think so. -tony From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Mar 27 14:35:15 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 20:35:15 +0100 Subject: Smoke From PSU Socket In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8E3EA8112B004519939B56F2AD234CE8@ANTONIOPC> Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > > And that looks like a very standard typoe of IEC320 plug with > a built-in > mains filter. It';s also a design that I've never tried to open to > repair, because it's so common. > > The parameters that matter are the maximum voltage that the > capacitors in > the filter will stand (but I wouild be suprised if any > wouldn't take 240V > mains), and the maximum current that the inductor in the filter can > carry. The latter should be more than the fuse rating in the > device. But > I can't believe DELNO takes that much current, so most > filters will be OK. Coincidentally I have a Schaffner FN9222R sitting here. It has a diagram on the case and it says "250V 10A @ 50degC". So I'd be surprised if that didn't work quite nicely in a DELNI. I don't have a DELNI to hand so I cannot check whether it would be a good physical fit. I do have the DELNI technical manual (and I've scanned it so it should be on the net) and figure 5-2 suggests that it's connected via the usual spade connectors. So if it fits in the cut-out then it should be fine. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Mar 27 14:40:07 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 12:40:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Unusual CMD SCSI thing... Anyone know what this is? In-Reply-To: <4D8F723F.6000603@neurotica.com> References: <4D8F6DBD.1020700@bitsavers.org> <4D8F723F.6000603@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Mar 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 3/27/11 1:02 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >>> A slightly later iteration of CMD RAID controller (note that this is, >>> in the true SCSI sense, >>> a "controller" and not a "host adapter with smarts") has a bit more >>> condensed >>> packaging and very similar user interface: >>> >>> http://cgi.ebay.com/CMD-CRD-5440-RAID-Controller-Device-P-N-CRD-005440-304-/280587387139#ht_3421wt_1141 >> >> docs on this series will be on bitsavers shortly. > > Al rocks. > > That is all. > That is not all. Al not only rocks, he kicks ass too. :D g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 27 14:46:50 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 20:46:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Smoke From PSU Socket In-Reply-To: <8E3EA8112B004519939B56F2AD234CE8@ANTONIOPC> from "arcarlini@iee.org" at Mar 27, 11 08:35:15 pm Message-ID: > > I can't believe DELNO takes that much current, so most > > filters will be OK. > > Coincidentally I have a Schaffner FN9222R sitting here. > > It has a diagram on the case and it says "250V 10A @ 50degC". If a properly-funcitoning DELNI draws anyhting like 10A from the mains, I will eat one :-). I am sure it would be fine. > > So I'd be surprised if that didn't work quite nicely in a > DELNI. I don't have a DELNI to hand so I cannot check whether > it would be a good physical fit. > > I do have the DELNI technical manual (and I've scanned it > so it should be on the net) and figure 5-2 suggests that > it's connected via the usual spade connectors. So if it fits > in the cut-out then it should be fine. > And if it isn';t, a file will take care of the problem :-) As for the wiring, the ground (earth) lead will go to a tag that it conencted to the metal casing, it's normally the centre tag. The other2 tags ar, of course, live (hot) nd neutral. It probably doens't matter which way round you conenct them, but in every similar mains filter I've used, the output tags are directly behind the corresponding plug pins, so it's easy to work out which is live and which is neutral. They may even be marked o nthe filter can. I don;t know what wiring colourse are used in the DELNI. It's likely to be either : Black : Live White : Neutral Green : Earth or Brown : Live Blue : Neutral Green/Yellow : Earth. -tony From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Mar 27 15:05:57 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 21:05:57 +0100 Subject: Smoke From PSU Socket In-Reply-To: References: <8E3EA8112B004519939B56F2AD234CE8@ANTONIOPC> from "arcarlini@iee.org" at Mar 27, 11 08:35:15 pm Message-ID: <004b01cbecba$64542760$2cfc7620$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 27 March 2011 20:47 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Smoke From PSU Socket > > > > I can't believe DELNO takes that much current, so most filters will > > > be OK. > > > > Coincidentally I have a Schaffner FN9222R sitting here. > > > > It has a diagram on the case and it says "250V 10A @ 50degC". > > If a properly-funcitoning DELNI draws anyhting like 10A from the mains, I > will eat one :-). I am sure it would be fine. I am absolutely sure it will be fine in this respect. > > > > > So I'd be surprised if that didn't work quite nicely in a DELNI. I > > don't have a DELNI to hand so I cannot check whether it would be a > > good physical fit. > > > > I do have the DELNI technical manual (and I've scanned it so it should > > be on the net) and figure 5-2 suggests that it's connected via the > > usual spade connectors. So if it fits in the cut-out then it should be > > fine. > > > > And if it isn';t, a file will take care of the problem :-) Hmm... I definitely don't want to do that. From the pictures on the Schaffner site it *looks* like it will fit the cutout just fine. I'd like to measure the old one, but I can't get the damn thing out at the moment. One of the nuts holding it in is in an awkward position, annoyingly, I don't have the 1/4" spanner you need to undo the nut and pliers won't reach. I am going to have to find a suitable spanner first. > > As for the wiring, the ground (earth) lead will go to a tag that it conencted > to the metal casing, it's normally the centre tag. The other2 tags ar, of > course, live (hot) nd neutral. It probably doens't matter which way round you > conenct them, but in every similar mains filter I've used, the output tags are > directly behind the corresponding plug pins, so it's easy to work out which is > live and which is neutral. They may even be marked o nthe filter can. Yes it has an earth tag and two other tags. There are markings on the casing but I can't see them properly until I can get the thing out. I have closed it up again to avoid losing bits and pieces so can't check wire colours. When I get the necessary spanner and replacement module then I will open it up again and check against the colours you suggest below. > > I don;t know what wiring colourse are used in the DELNI. It's likely to be > either : > Black : Live > White : Neutral > Green : Earth > > or > > Brown : Live > Blue : Neutral > Green/Yellow : Earth. > > -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 27 15:05:54 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 16:05:54 -0400 Subject: Unusual CMD SCSI thing... Anyone know what this is? In-Reply-To: References: <4D8F6DBD.1020700@bitsavers.org> <4D8F723F.6000603@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D8F98A2.7090400@neurotica.com> On 3/27/11 3:40 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>>> A slightly later iteration of CMD RAID controller (note that this is, >>>> in the true SCSI sense, >>>> a "controller" and not a "host adapter with smarts") has a bit more >>>> condensed >>>> packaging and very similar user interface: >>>> >>>> http://cgi.ebay.com/CMD-CRD-5440-RAID-Controller-Device-P-N-CRD-005440-304-/280587387139#ht_3421wt_1141 >>> >>> docs on this series will be on bitsavers shortly. >> >> Al rocks. >> >> That is all. >> > That is not all. Al not only rocks, he kicks ass too. :D Truer words were never spoken! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Mar 27 17:55:10 2011 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 18:55:10 -0400 Subject: FS: EAI TR-20 Message-ID: <201103271855.10862.pat@computer-refuge.org> I'm working on liquidating some things to help pay for a new acquisition. And, that means that I'm finally getting around to selling one of my EAI TR-20s. Another one was donated to CHM, and I'm keeping the third one for now. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220761050013 Let me know if you have any questions. I also expect to list at least one DG Nova4 system shortly. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From shawn.t.rutledge at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 02:57:41 2011 From: shawn.t.rutledge at gmail.com (Shawn Rutledge) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 00:57:41 -0700 Subject: masscomp stuff still available Message-ID: I already scrapped most of it, so what is left is the set of boards, manuals, floppies and a mag tape, and one 8" hard drive. The boards can fit in a medium flat rate box (I think, unless I missed something, but it's a tight fit, depends how much bubble wrap I use) and the manuals and disks etc. can go media mail, which will be quite cheap considering the bulk. Anybody want it or should I just finally throw it all in the recycling bin? From oe5ewl at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 04:05:01 2011 From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 11:05:01 +0200 Subject: masscomp stuff still available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Rhode Island Computer Museum seems to have one of this systems. (see https://sites.google.com/site/ricmwarehouse/Home/equipment/masscomp). maybe they need your stuff? -- Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL Operating System Collector Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com Homepage: www.eichberger.org 2011/3/28 Shawn Rutledge : > I already scrapped most of it, so what is left is the set of boards, > manuals, floppies and a mag tape, and one 8" hard drive. ?The boards > can fit in a medium flat rate box (I think, unless I missed something, > but it's a tight fit, depends how much bubble wrap I use) and the > manuals and disks etc. can go media mail, which will be quite cheap > considering the bulk. ?Anybody want it or should I just finally throw > it all in the recycling bin? > From jonas at otter.se Fri Mar 25 04:02:38 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (jonas at otter.se) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 10:02:38 +0100 Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive - No longer an issue Message-ID: <4a127875c543936b9c3805f0cd189e8d@otter.se> ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > All the religions that I've come across require oyu to beleive in > that > religious system to get to their idea of heaven. As an agnostic, I > don't > meet any such criteria. So if there is a hereafter, I am going to end > up > in hades... > > -tony Assuming that religions actually know or really care about what their particular deity thinks, says and/or means. IMO religions do not necessarily represent their deity correctly, they are prone to (mis)interpreting their own scriptures to suit their own personal interests. If there is a hereafter, I would expect a lot of people to be unpleasantly surprised after their deaths. However, we shall all find out sooner or later :-D /Jonas From jonnosan at gmail.com Fri Mar 25 08:36:01 2011 From: jonnosan at gmail.com (Jonno Downes) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 00:36:01 +1100 Subject: on the trail of Mel, the Real Programmer Message-ID: Many of you will be familiar with the story of Mel, the Real Programmer [ http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/mel.html ] in which Ed Nather (writing in 1983) relates his experience from 20 years previously in attempting to patch a BlackJack program written by his ex-colleague (Mel Kaye) for the ancient RPC-4000 computer, and how the complexity of the code he had to work through left him so impressed with Mel's familiarity with the inner workings of the computer that he abandoned the attempt to patch the code and even 20 years later, he still held Mel as the archetype of a "Real Programmer". I first came across the story on a BBS sometime the early 90s, at a time when I was just starting to become competent with x86 assembly code, and self-modifying code was a pretty fascinating idea, as was extreme performance optimisation. Then recently I came across the Mel story again, and went looking to see what (if anything) of the legendary machines and codes had made their way into the retro-computing archives across the net. The 'holy grail' would be a copy of the original BlackJack program with the back-to-front cheat option, and major bragging rights would come from being able to make the patch that Ed Nather had given up looking to make. I'm not there yet. What I have found so far is: - What looks to be a dump of a paper tape copy of the BlackJack game for the LGP-30, the predecessor to the RPC-4000 [ ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/lgp30/papertapes/Games/bkjck.tx ] - A copy of the RPC-4000 reference manual, with description of registers and opcodes [ http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/royalPrecision/RPC-4000/RPC-4000_Programming_Manual.pdf ] - Documentation for the RPC-4000 version of BlackJack, written by Mel Kaye, including what seems to be a writeup of the feature that Ed was asked to make work correctly ("PLAYING CONVENTIONS...8:. If SENSE SWITCH 32 is depressed, there is a better than normal chance of an ace being dealt as the player's first card"). [ http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/royalPrecision/RPC-4000/programWriteups/W1-01.0_Blackjack_Game.pdf ] >From looking at the opcodes in the programming manual, I believe that the loop in question must have been based around opcode 21 "COMPARE MEMORY GREATER", with the eventual 'overflow' to opcode 22 (TEST MINUS). I don't know what sort of work this loop would have been doing, although given the program documentation clearly states program execution starts at 00000, and that is also where (in the story) control is eventually transferred to once the loop exits, the loop must have been some kind of post-game cleanup, ready to re-start. So my current theory is - the data stored in the upper memory locations is the card deck, (stored initially perhaps as numbers 1..52) - as cards were "dealt" they were marked as such by (e.g.) setting the sign bit - the loop without apparant exit is going through the pack removing the 'dealt' marker, prior to being shuffled at the start of a new game. It is apparent that Ed's memory was not completely accurate; not completely surprising given the 20 year gap from when the events occurred until when they were documented. He mentions the clue that helped him understand the way the loop exited as being the fact that the index register bit was set even though Mel never used the index register, and says this index register bit is "between the address and the operation code in the instruction word". However reference manual is clear that the index register bit is the least significant bit, and in fact the opcode bits (0..4) are adjacent to the data address bits (5..16). I can't see any way the index bit could have been part of the loop/overflow. From davebarnes at roadrunner.com Sun Mar 27 09:16:12 2011 From: davebarnes at roadrunner.com (David Barnes) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 10:16:12 -0400 Subject: Unusual CMD SCSI thing... Anyone know what this is? In-Reply-To: <564706.63659.qm@web121611.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <564706.63659.qm@web121611.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7AA8A391-30A9-4796-B898-BAB0F86E66E4@roadrunner.com> Yupper... worked with em years ago on a Vax 4000/700... SCSI to DSSI adapter... I had 7 drives and this unit in a tower box and it attached to the Vax via DSSI... pretty cool unit. On Mar 26, 2011, at 3:04 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > So, in a recent pile-o-stuff, I acquired this SCSI box. The box itself is a generic two bay SCSI enclosure, but inside is mounted some kind of bus interface devices. It's a single circuit board, on a frame that mounts in a half height 5 1/4" bay. The face has a little two line LCD, and some buttons and lights. The board itself is made by CMD. Seems to be model CSB-2200/SDS. > > The board has what appears to be a SCSI input, and two SCSI outputs. The board contains three NCR 53C90B SCSI chips. Powering the device up, it announces itself as SCEA/S on the LCD. > > Now, from fiddling with the thing, and looking at what it contains, it *appears* to be some sort of SCSI-SCSI bridge, communicating with two separate busses, and allowing one external bus to use them. But I don't know. Searching on the model number have failed to turn up a manual. Searches for SCEA/S invariably turns up articles about various lawsuits that Sony Computer Entertainment of America have filed against their customers for using devices they purchased in ways that Sony doesn't like. > > > So. Any ideas? I took some pictures: > > http://i.imgur.com/o9X6s.jpg > http://i.imgur.com/TzV67.jpg > http://i.imgur.com/SQN0b.jpg > > -Ian > David Barnes davebarnes AT roadrunner DOT com OpenVMS , Tru64 , Solaris , Linux , OS X , SGI Irix 'Making a movie is like asking a question, and when you finish, the movie itself is the answer.' - Francis Ford Coppola From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 26 12:01:43 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 10:01:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: what is this board? Message-ID: <89790.24912.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Classic-Computer-Board-/190464352010?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c588f5f0a From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 25 17:13:36 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 15:13:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: need a Pentium 75 and heatsink In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <345669.30030.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> thanks mon. But I'd rather avoid shipping it from a different continent. I also don't do business w/heathen atheists. I'm also a vegetarian incidentally, but it's not because I believe I'm eating far distant cousins. --- On Thu, 3/24/11, Liam Proven wrote: > > hope this isn't ot > > > > if you have one in your stash, let me know > > Can do, I think. Contact me offlist, if you want - details > in my .sig. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 07:02:34 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 09:02:34 -0300 Subject: what is this board? References: <89790.24912.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5ED49192956A4A3B9F0FDBE820506EFF@portajara> Motorola repeater controller... --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris M" To: "talk" Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 2:01 PM Subject: what is this board? > http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Classic-Computer-Board-/190464352010?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c588f5f0a > > > From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Mar 28 07:35:59 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 05:35:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Data I/O Series 22 device list Message-ID: <684807.86671.qm@web121619.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I have an ancient Data I/O Series 22 Prom programmer, and I'm looking for the manual/device list. I haven't used it in many years, but I know I have the paper manual with the setup instructions and such, but then there was also an expanded device list with setup codes that I had as a text file. Does anyone have that device list text file? I tried google, but wasn't able to locate it. I know I have to have it around here somewhere, either on a computer or printed out, but I can't find it for the life of me. -Ian From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Mar 28 10:41:07 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 08:41:07 -0700 Subject: CMD MSCP controllers Message-ID: <4D90AC13.9070109@bitsavers.org> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200591760912 Seems like a decent price for a QBus controller. I seriously doubt anyone could build one for $125 From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 28 10:50:01 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 11:50:01 -0400 Subject: Unusual CMD SCSI thing... Anyone know what this is? In-Reply-To: <7AA8A391-30A9-4796-B898-BAB0F86E66E4@roadrunner.com> References: <564706.63659.qm@web121611.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <7AA8A391-30A9-4796-B898-BAB0F86E66E4@roadrunner.com> Message-ID: <4D90AE29.4030202@neurotica.com> That would be surprising, as the PCB photo shows 53C90Bs on both sides. Can the 53C90B be coaxed into doing DSSI? If so, I wasn't aware of it. -Dave On 3/27/11 10:16 AM, David Barnes wrote: > Yupper... worked with em years ago on a Vax 4000/700... SCSI to DSSI adapter... I had 7 drives and this unit in a tower box and it attached to the Vax via DSSI... pretty cool unit. > > > > On Mar 26, 2011, at 3:04 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > >> So, in a recent pile-o-stuff, I acquired this SCSI box. The box itself is a generic two bay SCSI enclosure, but inside is mounted some kind of bus interface devices. It's a single circuit board, on a frame that mounts in a half height 5 1/4" bay. The face has a little two line LCD, and some buttons and lights. The board itself is made by CMD. Seems to be model CSB-2200/SDS. >> >> The board has what appears to be a SCSI input, and two SCSI outputs. The board contains three NCR 53C90B SCSI chips. Powering the device up, it announces itself as SCEA/S on the LCD. >> >> Now, from fiddling with the thing, and looking at what it contains, it *appears* to be some sort of SCSI-SCSI bridge, communicating with two separate busses, and allowing one external bus to use them. But I don't know. Searching on the model number have failed to turn up a manual. Searches for SCEA/S invariably turns up articles about various lawsuits that Sony Computer Entertainment of America have filed against their customers for using devices they purchased in ways that Sony doesn't like. >> >> >> So. Any ideas? I took some pictures: >> >> http://i.imgur.com/o9X6s.jpg >> http://i.imgur.com/TzV67.jpg >> http://i.imgur.com/SQN0b.jpg >> >> -Ian >> > > David Barnes > > davebarnes AT roadrunner DOT com > OpenVMS , Tru64 , Solaris , Linux , OS X , SGI Irix > 'Making a movie is like asking a question, and when you finish, the movie itself is the answer.' - Francis Ford Coppola > > > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 28 10:57:34 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 11:57:34 -0400 Subject: Data I/O Series 22 device list In-Reply-To: <684807.86671.qm@web121619.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <684807.86671.qm@web121619.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D90AFEE.3000008@neurotica.com> On 3/28/11 8:35 AM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > I have an ancient Data I/O Series 22 Prom programmer, and I'm looking > for the manual/device list. I haven't used it in many years, but I > know I have the paper manual with the setup instructions and such, > but then there was also an expanded device list with setup codes that > I had as a text file. Does anyone have that device list text file? I > tried google, but wasn't able to locate it. I know I have to have it > around here somewhere, either on a computer or printed out, but I > can't find it for the life of me. I don't, but the Data I/O Yahoo! Group is an excellent resource, I suggest you check there. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Mon Mar 28 11:28:59 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 10:28:59 -0600 Subject: what is this board? In-Reply-To: <5ED49192956A4A3B9F0FDBE820506EFF@portajara> References: <89790.24912.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <5ED49192956A4A3B9F0FDBE820506EFF@portajara> Message-ID: In article <5ED49192956A4A3B9F0FDBE820506EFF at portajara>, "Alexandre Souza - Listas" writes: > Motorola repeater controller... Some sort of telecom gear? P2 looks like it might be an IEEE-488 connector. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From spedraja at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 06:31:34 2011 From: spedraja at gmail.com (SPC) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:31:34 +0200 Subject: Fwd: NYT Obituary for Paul Baran (full text) In-Reply-To: References: <6ABF3C10-3986-409D-A283-257AA55115FC@infowarrior.org> Message-ID: --------- March 27, 2011 Paul Baran, Internet Pioneer, Dies at 84 By KATIE HAFNER https://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/28/technology/28baran.html Paul Baran, an engineer who helped create the technical underpinnings for the Arpanet, the government-sponsored precursor to today?s Internet, died Saturday night at his home in Palo Alto, Calif. He was 84. The cause was complications from lung cancer, said his son, David. In the early 1960s, while working at the RAND Corporation in Santa Monica, Calif., Mr. Baran outlined the fundamentals for packaging data into discrete bundles, which he called ?message blocks.? The bundles are then sent on various paths around a network and reassembled at their destination. Such a plan is known as ?packet switching.? Mr. Baran?s idea was to build a distributed communications network, less vulnerable to attack or disruption than conventional networks. In a series of technical papers published in the 1960s he suggested that networks be designed with redundant routes so that if a particular path failed or was destroyed, messages could still be delivered through another. Mr. Baran?s invention was so far ahead of its time that in the mid-1960s, when he approached AT&T with the idea to build his proposed network, the company insisted it would not work and refused. ?Paul wasn?t afraid to go in directions counter to what everyone else thought was the right or only thing to do,? said Vinton Cerf, a vice president at Google who was a colleague and longtime friend of Mr. Baran?s. ?AT&T repeatedly said his idea wouldn?t work, and wouldn?t participate in the Arpanet project,? he said. In 1969, the Defense Department?s Advanced Research Projects Agency built the Arpanet, a network that used Mr. Baran?s ideas, and those of others. The Arpanet was eventually replaced by the Internet, and packet switching still lies at the heart of the network?s internal workings. Paul Baran was born on April 29, 1926, in Grodno, Poland. His parents moved to the United States in 1928, and Mr. Baran grew up in Philadelphia. His father was a grocer, and as a boy, Paul delivered orders to customers in a small red wagon. He attended the Drexel Institute of Technology, which later became Drexel University, where he earned a bachelor?s degree in electrical engineering in 1949. He took his first job at the Eckert-Mauchly Computer Corporation in Philadelphia, testing parts of radio tubes for an early commercial computer, the Univac. In 1955, he married Evelyn Murphy, and they moved to Los Angeles, where Mr. Baran took a job at Hughes Aircraft working on radar data processing systems. He enrolled in night classes at the University of California, Los Angeles. Mr. Baran received a master?s degree in engineering from U.C.L.A. in 1959. Gerald Estrin, who was Mr. Baran?s adviser, said Mr. Baran was the first student he ever had who actually went to the Patent Office in Washington to investigate whether his master?s work, on character recognition, was patentable. ?From that day on, my expectations of him changed,? Dr. Estrin said. ?He wasn?t just a serious student, but a young man who was looking to have an effect on the world.? In 1959, Mr. Baran left Hughes to join RAND?s computer science department. He quickly developed an interest in the survivability of communications systems in the event of a nuclear attack, and spent the next several years at RAND working on a series of 13 papers ? two of them classified ? under contract to the Air Force, titled, ?On Distributed Communications.? About the same time that Mr. Baran had his idea, similar plans for creating such networks were percolating in the computing community. Donald Davies of the British National Physical Laboratory, working a continent away, had a similar idea for dividing digital messages into chunks he called packets. ?In the golden era of the early 1960s, these ideas were in the air,? said Leonard Kleinrock, a computer scientist at U.C.L.A. who was working on similar networking systems in the 1960s. Mr. Baran left RAND in 1968 to co-found the Institute for the Future, a nonprofit research group specializing in long-range forecasting. Mr. Baran was also an entrepreneur. He started seven companies, five of which eventually went public. In recent years, the origins of the Internet have been subject to claims and counterclaims of precedence, and Mr. Baran was an outspoken proponent of distributing credit widely. ?The Internet is really the work of a thousand people,? he said in an interview in 2001. ?The process of technological developments is like building a cathedral,? he said in an interview in 1990. ?Over the course of several hundred years, new people come along and each lays down a block on top of the old foundations, each saying, ?I built a cathedral.? ?Next month another block is placed atop the previous one. Then comes along an historian who asks, ?Well, who built the cathedral?? Peter added some stones here, and Paul added a few more. If you are not careful you can con yourself into believing that you did the most important part. But the reality is that each contribution has to follow onto previous work. Everything is tied to everything else.? Mr. Baran?s wife, Evelyn, died in 2007. In addition to his son, David, of Atherton, Calif., he is survived by three grandchildren; and his companion of recent years, Ruth Rothman. __ _______________________________________________ IP : A community of Interesting People devoted to improve our interconnected World. IP at wiwiw.org http://lists.wiwiw.org/mailman/listinfo/ip BLOG http://wiwiw.org/ip ***New*** -- Saludos - Greetings - Freundliche Gr??e - Salutations Sergio http://www.linkedin.com/in/sergiopedraja http://www.quora.com/Sergio-Pedraja https://www.xing.com/profile/Sergio_Pedraja ----- No crea todo lo que ve, ni crea que esta vi?ndolo todo From robin at hx-20.com Mon Mar 28 06:33:48 2011 From: robin at hx-20.com (Robin England) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 12:33:48 +0100 Subject: Data Recovery from DEC RL02 Message-ID: <5105F9C29D9C4FBF9867C7CDAA173F31@AlienwareM15x> Hello all, I know someone who wants to recover data from one of these 10MB disk packs. They have no drive, no RLV12 controller and (unsurprisingly) no PDP-11. I haven?t seen the disk pack in question so I have absolutely no idea of the condition although I am led to believe it has been looked after, stored properly and doesn?t have a crash...! Of course the pack owner has no idea of the data they?re after (whether it be ASCII, EBCDIC, binary etc..) so that?s another unknown quantity! Is there anyone here who is able to assist with this? Maybe initially to produce a binary image of the disk for further exploration? If yes, (how much) would you charge for this service? Many thanks Robin From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 11:37:42 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:37:42 -0300 Subject: what is this board? References: <89790.24912.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><5ED49192956A4A3B9F0FDBE820506EFF@portajara> Message-ID: <2EDF7588323243428559A3FE67820175@portajara> >> Motorola repeater controller... > Some sort of telecom gear? Radio gear... > P2 looks like it might be an IEEE-488 connector. It has less pins, take a look From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Mon Mar 28 12:39:58 2011 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 18:39:58 +0100 Subject: Data Recovery from DEC RL02 References: <5105F9C29D9C4FBF9867C7CDAA173F31@AlienwareM15x> Message-ID: <6E5977BED39F43D693FA5EF45ED1B0AD@XPBOX> Hi Robin, it depends where you are! I can recover data from a pack in the UK, as can a few others on here. Regards Jim. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin England" To: Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 12:33 PM Subject: Data Recovery from DEC RL02 Hello all, I know someone who wants to recover data from one of these 10MB disk packs. They have no drive, no RLV12 controller and (unsurprisingly) no PDP-11. I haven?t seen the disk pack in question so I have absolutely no idea of the condition although I am led to believe it has been looked after, stored properly and doesn?t have a crash...! Of course the pack owner has no idea of the data they?re after (whether it be ASCII, EBCDIC, binary etc..) so that?s another unknown quantity! Is there anyone here who is able to assist with this? Maybe initially to produce a binary image of the disk for further exploration? If yes, (how much) would you charge for this service? Many thanks Robin From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Mar 28 14:10:38 2011 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 12:10:38 -0700 Subject: Xerox 860 available... Message-ID: <201103281210.39005.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Weirdstuff "rescued" (didn't scrap) a Xerox 860 and held it for me to check out. I did so, and it appears to be complete (w/o diskettes, unfortunately). It consists of the 860 CPU w/(2) 8" FDD, Keyboard, Monitor and Printer. I did not open it up to inspect it. Here's a couple of links on this system: http://www.digibarn.com/collections/systems/xerox860/index.html http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/102646130 (The CHM link is a PDF of the original 860 brochure...) If you are interested in acquiring this system, please contact me off list and I'll let you know who to contact at WS. I have no financial interest in this transaction... Regards, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley, AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 28 14:09:40 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 20:09:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Smoke From PSU Socket In-Reply-To: <004b01cbecba$64542760$2cfc7620$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Mar 27, 11 09:05:57 pm Message-ID: > > If a properly-funcitoning DELNI draws anyhting like 10A from the mains, I > > will eat one :-). I am sure it would be fine. > > > I am absolutely sure it will be fine in this respect. I have now dione what I should have done ages ago amnd looked at the DELNI printset on bitsavers (under dec/ethernet IIRC) [1]. I find that the printset is always the best manual to look at first :-) [1] As you all know by now, looking at on-line documentation is rather more work for me than for most people, which is why I didn't instnatly look at bitsavcers to see if there was anything useful. Anyway, I was somewhat suprised by the PSU. It's not an SMPSU. At least one of the regulators looks to be a switching type,, but the power supply starts with a mains transformer (running at 50Hz or 60Hz). The primary windings of that transformer go to the nromal series/parallel switch and then to the mains input. Oh yes, there's a fuse in series with the live wire. Now, 10A, even at 110V is over 1kW. a 1kW (more correctly 1kVA) trransformer is a big lump of iron. I doubt one would fit in the DELNI case. So I am sure a 10A filter will be fine. When you replace it, make sure that the wire that goes to one end of the fuseholder goes to the live output tag on the filter. It's very clear from the schematic. [Modifying the case] > > And if it isn';t, a file will take care of the problem :-) > > Hmm... I definitely don't want to do that. From the pictures on the Well, agreed, I'd rather mont have to do it, but it's better to slightly enlarge the hole than have a non-working device, isn't it? > Schaffner site it *looks* like it will fit the cutout just fine. I'd like to I think it will, these things come in fairly standard sizes. Admittedly it was just an IEC320 plug, not one with a built-in filter, but I found a generic plug from the local electroncis shop was a perfect fit as a replacement for a broken one in an HP9820 calcluator made over 25 years earlier. No cutting, filing or drilling needed. > measure the old one, but I can't get the damn thing out at the moment. One > of the nuts holding it in is in an awkward position, annoyingly, I don't > have the 1/4" spanner you need to undo the nut and pliers won't reach. I am > going to have to find a suitable spanner first. SInce when have pliers been a substitue for a spanner??? Darn it, I don't even like using adjustable spanners if I can avoid it. Incidentally, I find I need 3 sets of spanners to work on classic computer stuff : Inch size (to fit USA built stuff mostly). And I need odd sizes like 11/32" sometimes. Metric sizes (needed on just about anything modern-ish, and everything European). BA sizes. BA is a strange thread used mostly on older British stuff. You need BA spanners to work on Creed teleprinters, for example. AAnd yes, open-end, ring (box end?) and nutdrivers are all useful. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 28 15:15:25 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 21:15:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: need a Pentium 75 and heatsink In-Reply-To: <345669.30030.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Mar 25, 11 03:13:36 pm Message-ID: > I also don't do business w/heathen atheists. I'm also a vegetarian ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ If this is s joke, I think it's in very bad taste. If not, I think it's objectionable. -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Mar 28 15:37:16 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:37:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: need a Pentium 75 and heatsink In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Mar 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> I also don't do business w/heathen atheists. I'm also a vegetarian > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > If this is s joke, I think it's in very bad taste. If not, I think it's > objectionable. > S'ok Tony, us heathen atheists don't business with vegetarians[*]. * Ancient Indian word meaning "poor hunter". :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 28 15:50:17 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 16:50:17 -0400 Subject: need a Pentium 75 and heatsink In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D90F489.8090602@neurotica.com> On 3/28/11 4:37 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>> I also don't do business w/heathen atheists. I'm also a vegetarian >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> If this is s joke, I think it's in very bad taste. If not, I think it's >> objectionable. >> > S'ok Tony, us heathen atheists don't business with vegetarians[*]. > > > * Ancient Indian word meaning "poor hunter". > > :) Plants are what food eats. -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Mar 28 17:36:41 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 14:36:41 -0800 Subject: Smoke From PSU Socket In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6e79c83bd945990f007418c64920b100@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Mar 28, at 11:09 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > I think it will, these things come in fairly standard sizes. > > Admittedly it was just an IEC320 plug, not one with a built-in filter, > but I found a generic plug from the local electroncis shop was a > perfect > fit as a replacement for a broken one in an HP9820 calcluator made over > 25 years earlier. No cutting, filing or drilling needed. Just for the sake of accuracy, IEC 320 is a specification covering numerous styles of plug/socket connector combinations. The common pair used with electronic equipment (one of the pairs specified in IEC 320), is the C13 (female outlet) and C14 (male inlet) combination. I scavenge C14 chassis inlets from dismantled equipment for use in projects, and the chassis hole size and screw spacing for the plain form (unfiltered/unfused) has been quite uniform and substitutable across dozens of examples IME. Finish details such as beveled or curved edges may differ between manufacturers. There are two hole sizes possible in the chassis depending on whether the unit is mounted from the outside or inside. Filtered units may have a slightly larger chassis hole size from the plain form when mounted from the outside due to the filter housing. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Mar 28 16:58:59 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 22:58:59 +0100 Subject: Smoke From PSU Socket In-Reply-To: References: <004b01cbecba$64542760$2cfc7620$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Mar 27, 11 09:05:57 pm Message-ID: <002601cbed93$59278a10$0b769e30$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 28 March 2011 20:10 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Smoke From PSU Socket > > > > If a properly-funcitoning DELNI draws anyhting like 10A from the > > > mains, I will eat one :-). I am sure it would be fine. > > > > > > I am absolutely sure it will be fine in this respect. > > I have now dione what I should have done ages ago amnd looked at the > DELNI printset on bitsavers (under dec/ethernet IIRC) [1]. I find that the > printset is always the best manual to look at first :-) > > [1] As you all know by now, looking at on-line documentation is rather more > work for me than for most people, which is why I didn't instnatly look at > bitsavcers to see if there was anything useful. > > Anyway, I was somewhat suprised by the PSU. It's not an SMPSU. At least > one of the regulators looks to be a switching type,, but the power supply > starts with a mains transformer (running at 50Hz or 60Hz). The primary > windings of that transformer go to the nromal series/parallel switch and > then to the mains input. Oh yes, there's a fuse in series with the live wire. > > Now, 10A, even at 110V is over 1kW. a 1kW (more correctly 1kVA) > trransformer is a big lump of iron. I doubt one would fit in the DELNI case. > So I am sure a 10A filter will be fine. > > When you replace it, make sure that the wire that goes to one end of the > fuseholder goes to the live output tag on the filter. It's very clear from the > schematic. Thanks, I will make sure I follow your instructions on this. > > [Modifying the case] > > > > And if it isn';t, a file will take care of the problem :-) > > > > Hmm... I definitely don't want to do that. From the pictures on the > > Well, agreed, I'd rather mont have to do it, but it's better to slightly enlarge > the hole than have a non-working device, isn't it? Of course, I just want to minimise alterations and will try to find a better alternative before making alterations. > > > Schaffner site it *looks* like it will fit the cutout just fine. I'd > > like to > > I think it will, these things come in fairly standard sizes. > > Admittedly it was just an IEC320 plug, not one with a built-in filter, but I > found a generic plug from the local electroncis shop was a perfect fit as a > replacement for a broken one in an HP9820 calcluator made over > 25 years earlier. No cutting, filing or drilling needed. > > > measure the old one, but I can't get the damn thing out at the moment. > > One of the nuts holding it in is in an awkward position, annoyingly, I > > don't have the 1/4" spanner you need to undo the nut and pliers won't > > reach. I am going to have to find a suitable spanner first. > > SInce when have pliers been a substitue for a spanner??? When I don't have a suitable spanner :-) Don't worry, a suitable spanner is now on its way. > Darn it, I don't > even like using adjustable spanners if I can avoid it. I don't like them either, but in this case I don't even have an adjustable one that will reach into the awkward spot where the nut is. > > Incidentally, I find I need 3 sets of spanners to work on classic computer > stuff : > > Inch size (to fit USA built stuff mostly). And I need odd sizes like 11/32" > sometimes. > > Metric sizes (needed on just about anything modern-ish, and everything > European). > > BA sizes. BA is a strange thread used mostly on older British stuff. You need > BA spanners to work on Creed teleprinters, for example. Gosh, I remember BA sizes when building my KeilKraft kits as a kid and wanting to put engines and radio control in them I never had the money for. > > AAnd yes, open-end, ring (box end?) and nutdrivers are all useful. > > -tony From lynchaj at yahoo.com Mon Mar 28 20:00:39 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 21:00:39 -0400 Subject: Jupiter ACE PCBs at N8VEM Message-ID: Thread on Jupiter ACE has been updated with pictures of working home brew computer. Very nice and fits in a 3U rack. Testing continues but appears to be fully operational. Good job Sergio! Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Mar 28 23:42:16 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 20:42:16 -0800 Subject: "Subracks" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Has anyone come across decennt subracks at a 'reasonable' price? The ones I've come across are around $300, and that just seems excessive to me for extruded steel and aluminum that you have to bolt together yourself :( From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Mar 28 22:58:26 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 20:58:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Subracks" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Mar 2011, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > Has anyone come across decennt subracks at a 'reasonable' price? The ones > I've come across are around $300, and that just seems excessive to me for > extruded steel and aluminum that you have to bolt together yourself :( What sort of size and depth do you want? http://www.nice-racks.com has decent prices, but they're mainly for audio equipment. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Mar 28 23:12:09 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 21:12:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5150 in S100? Message-ID: I just came across an 8086 S100 CPU board from Seattle Computer Products and I started thinking... How much trouble would it be to use this board to come up with an IBM 5150 work-alike? What sort of custom boards would need to be made? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From shumaker at att.net Mon Mar 28 23:52:23 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 21:52:23 -0700 Subject: IBM 5150 in S100? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D916587.3010306@att.net> On 3/28/2011 9:12 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > I just came across an 8086 S100 CPU board from Seattle Computer > Products and I started thinking... How much trouble would it be to > use this board to come up with an IBM 5150 work-alike? What sort of > custom boards would need to be made? > There apparently was work done in that vein by a small firm the bay area using standard compupro boards. I scored a large S100 system about a year ago from one of the engineers that worked on it - a Mr Gary Helbig. Along with the hardware, I was handed 4 large boxes of docs and code that supposedly contain the source code for a bootable MS-DOS C-Pro system. Still sorting and scanning hardcopy but supposedly all the code is in a set of 8" floppies that came with the system. It apparently used the 8085/8088 dual cpu card and the CPro PCVideo card. Steve.... From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 29 01:05:30 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 23:05:30 -0700 Subject: IBM 5150 in S100? In-Reply-To: <4D916587.3010306@att.net> References: , <4D916587.3010306@att.net> Message-ID: <4D91143A.13769.E492C5@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Mar 2011 at 21:52, steve shumaker wrote: > On 3/28/2011 9:12 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > > > I just came across an 8086 S100 CPU board from Seattle Computer > > Products and I started thinking... How much trouble would it be to > > use this board to come up with an IBM 5150 work-alike? What sort of > > custom boards would need to be made? > > > There apparently was work done in that vein by a small firm the bay > area using standard compupro boards. I scored a large S100 system > about a year ago from one of the engineers that worked on it - a Mr > Gary Helbig. As I recall the 85/88 setup, Godbout initially did not want to invest in an OEM license for MS-DOS, so a procedure was worked out where a standard PC-DOS ($40 from your local IBM retailer) system was used as the starting point with a new set of I/O drivers installed. I used to have such a disk for test purposes--but I don't recall if I still have it. --Chuck From tingox at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 14:46:44 2011 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 21:46:44 +0200 Subject: FS. Siemens Nixdorf RM200c (Europe) In-Reply-To: <4D8F7B5B.40402@dds.nl> References: <4D8F7B5B.40402@dds.nl> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 27, 2011 at 8:00 PM, Michiel wrote: > ? Hello, > > ?Thinning out the collection a bit, I've got a Siemens Nixdorf RM200C for > sale running Sinix. Cool! In a previous job, I managed a flock of servers running SINIX. I believe they were RM-400's. SINIX was my first experience with a System V release 4 unix. Ah, fond memories. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 18:42:23 2011 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 19:42:23 -0400 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 91, Issue 41 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From:?Shawn Rutledge > To:?cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date:?Mon, 28 Mar 2011 00:57:41 -0700 > Subject:?masscomp stuff still available > I already scrapped most of it, so what is left is the set of boards, > manuals, floppies and a mag tape, and one 8" hard drive. ?The boards > can fit in a medium flat rate box (I think, unless I missed something, > but it's a tight fit, depends how much bubble wrap I use) and the > manuals and disks etc. can go media mail, which will be quite cheap > considering the bulk. ?Anybody want it or should I just finally throw > it all in the recycling bin? > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From:?Wolfgang Eichberger > To:?"General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date:?Mon, 28 Mar 2011 11:05:01 +0200 > Subject:?Re: masscomp stuff still available > Rhode Island Computer Museum seems to have one of this systems. (see > https://sites.google.com/site/ricmwarehouse/Home/equipment/masscomp). > maybe they need your stuff? > > -- > Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL > Operating System Collector > Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com > Homepage: www.eichberger.org Since we have no spares or documentation for the MASSCOMP, the RICM would gratefully accept a donation. If you are from the US you can even claim a tax deduction for a charitable donation. -- Michael Thompson From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Mar 29 05:10:33 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 02:10:33 -0800 Subject: "Subracks" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For a N8VEM chassis :) On 3/28/11 7:58 PM, "David Griffith" wrote: > On Mon, 28 Mar 2011, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > >> Has anyone come across decennt subracks at a 'reasonable' price? The ones >> I've come across are around $300, and that just seems excessive to me for >> extruded steel and aluminum that you have to bolt together yourself :( > > What sort of size and depth do you want? http://www.nice-racks.com has > decent prices, but they're mainly for audio equipment. From shumaker at att.net Tue Mar 29 13:07:02 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 11:07:02 -0700 Subject: IBM 5150 in S100? In-Reply-To: <4D91143A.13769.E492C5@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4D916587.3010306@att.net> <4D91143A.13769.E492C5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D921FC6.6020607@att.net> On 3/28/2011 11:05 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 28 Mar 2011 at 21:52, steve shumaker wrote: > > >> On 3/28/2011 9:12 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> >>> I just came across an 8086 S100 CPU board from Seattle Computer >>> Products and I started thinking... How much trouble would it be to >>> use this board to come up with an IBM 5150 work-alike? What sort of >>> custom boards would need to be made? >>> >>> >> There apparently was work done in that vein by a small firm the bay >> area using standard compupro boards. I scored a large S100 system >> about a year ago from one of the engineers that worked on it - a Mr >> Gary Helbig. >> > As I recall the 85/88 setup, Godbout initially did not want to invest > in an OEM license for MS-DOS, so a procedure was worked out where a > standard PC-DOS ($40 from your local IBM retailer) system was used as > the starting point with a new set of I/O drivers installed. > > I used to have such a disk for test purposes--but I don't recall if I > still have it. > > --Chuck > > > Helbig didn't say much about the relationship although I got the impression this was not something that Godbout was involved in - they were simply using their technology. Buried in the disks I have here are a stack of 5 1/4 floppies labeled "MS-DOS 2.0 OEM Support" No idea the contents. (He included over 200 pieces of media - mostly 8"- and I've yet to open any of them.") Much of the documentation appears to be a mix of MSDOS and CPRO BIOS listings. The company was "G and G Engineering" Steve From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Mar 29 12:50:49 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 19:50:49 +0200 Subject: Unusual CMD SCSI thing... Anyone know what this is? In-Reply-To: <4D90AE29.4030202@neurotica.com> References: <564706.63659.qm@web121611.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <7AA8A391-30A9-4796-B898-BAB0F86E66E4@roadrunner.com> <4D90AE29.4030202@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110329195049.109a0847.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 28 Mar 2011 11:50:01 -0400 Dave McGuire wrote: > Can the 53C90B be coaxed into doing DSSI? The PCI DSSI adapters (KFPSA?), that I got with an AlphaServer once uppon a time long gone, contained NCR 53C825 SCSI processors. AFAIK those chips include a complete RISC microcontroler and can be tought to talk neary any "language". That AlphaServer was accompanied by a "Low Boy". It was filled with Storage Shelfes that carried those "jet engine" 4 GB Seagate Baracuda SCSI disks and a couple of HSZ50. Incredible noise... Ahhh, times... -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 29 14:12:27 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 15:12:27 -0400 Subject: Unusual CMD SCSI thing... Anyone know what this is? In-Reply-To: <20110329195049.109a0847.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <564706.63659.qm@web121611.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <7AA8A391-30A9-4796-B898-BAB0F86E66E4@roadrunner.com> <4D90AE29.4030202@neurotica.com> <20110329195049.109a0847.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4D922F1B.4040205@neurotica.com> On 3/29/11 1:50 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Mon, 28 Mar 2011 11:50:01 -0400 > Dave McGuire wrote: > >> Can the 53C90B be coaxed into doing DSSI? > The PCI DSSI adapters (KFPSA?), that I got with an AlphaServer once > uppon a time long gone, contained NCR 53C825 SCSI processors. AFAIK > those chips include a complete RISC microcontroler and can be tought > to talk neary any "language". That AlphaServer was accompanied by a > "Low Boy". It was filled with Storage Shelfes that carried those "jet > engine" 4 GB Seagate Baracuda SCSI disks and a couple of HSZ50. > Incredible noise... Ahhh, times... Sweet machine. I know the later chips are programmable, but the 53C90B is a very old design, and I didn't think the built-in processor was introduced that early. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Tue Mar 29 14:23:48 2011 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 11:23:48 -0800 Subject: what is this board? In-Reply-To: <2EDF7588323243428559A3FE67820175@portajara> References: <89790.24912.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <5ed49192956a4a3b9f0fdbe820506eff@portajara> Message-ID: Yah, that's a board out of a Motorola CentraCom II radio control console. That system used a good number of 6809's. The last customer I had that still used one retired theirs last year. Alot of them are hitting the surplus market now. > -----Original Message----- > From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com > Sent: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:37:42 -0300 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: what is this board? > >>> Motorola repeater controller... >> Some sort of telecom gear? > > Radio gear... > >> P2 looks like it might be an IEEE-488 connector. > > It has less pins, take a look ____________________________________________________________ Publish your photos in seconds for FREE TRY IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if4 From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 29 14:52:16 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 12:52:16 -0700 Subject: IBM 5150 in S100? In-Reply-To: <4D921FC6.6020607@att.net> References: , <4D91143A.13769.E492C5@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D921FC6.6020607@att.net> Message-ID: <4D91D600.7924.CC562E@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Mar 2011 at 11:07, steve shumaker wrote: > Helbig didn't say much about the relationship although I got the > impression this was not something that Godbout was involved in - they > were simply using their technology. Buried in the disks I have here > are a stack of 5 1/4 floppies labeled "MS-DOS 2.0 OEM Support" No > idea the contents. (He included over 200 pieces of media - mostly 8"- > and I've yet to open any of them.") Much of the documentation appears > to be a mix of MSDOS and CPRO BIOS listings. The company was "G and > G Engineering" I'll have to see if I have anything on it, but this would more likely be from the PC-DOS 1.1 era. I still have my notes from working with the OEM MS-DOS 2.0 kit; it was really the first version that had decent OEM documentation--compared to 1.25, it was wonderful. What's particularly funny is the stated goal of eventually merging DOS and Xenix. File that one with Microsoft OS/2 3.0... --Chuck From evan at snarc.net Tue Mar 29 14:57:51 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 19:57:51 +0000 Subject: Let me say: WOWZAS Message-ID: <833995933-1301428673-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-388101451-@bda2007.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Newest addition to the MARCH Computer Museum library is the first several years of the People's Computer Company newsletters. :-) Come to VCF East to see 'em. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 29 13:39:40 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 19:39:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Smoke From PSU Socket In-Reply-To: <002601cbed93$59278a10$0b769e30$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Mar 28, 11 10:58:59 pm Message-ID: > > When you replace it, make sure that the wire that goes to one end of the > > fuseholder goes to the live output tag on the filter. It's very clear from > the > > schematic. > > Thanks, I will make sure I follow your instructions on this. Assumingyou can easily read .pdf files, look at the printset on bitsavers. You don;t ahve to undersntad the logic, the mains transfotmer is easy to spot. It shows the primary side wiring, which is what yuu are working on. > > BA sizes. BA is a strange thread used mostly on older British stuff. You > need > > BA spanners to work on Creed teleprinters, for example. > > Gosh, I remember BA sizes when building my KeilKraft kits as a kid and > wanting to put engines and radio control in them I never had the money for. BA nuts ans bolts are still commonly used by model engineers over here, amazingly. And they do turn up on electrical stuff, when I bought some barrier strips recently, I found I could get such thins with M3.5, 6-32UNC or 4BA terminal screws. Anyway, BS fasteners are not common in classic computer stuff, but you will find them in old British stuff. Creeds being the most common place, but otehr things too. I suspect old GPO modems, for example, use them (the telephones certainly do). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 29 14:03:18 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 20:03:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Smoke From PSU Socket In-Reply-To: <6e79c83bd945990f007418c64920b100@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Mar 28, 11 02:36:41 pm Message-ID: > > Admittedly it was just an IEC320 plug, not one with a built-in filter, > > but I found a generic plug from the local electroncis shop was a > > perfect > > fit as a replacement for a broken one in an HP9820 calcluator made over > > 25 years earlier. No cutting, filing or drilling needed. > > > Just for the sake of accuracy, IEC 320 is a specification covering > numerous styles of plug/socket connector combinations. > The common pair used with electronic equipment (one of the pairs > specified in IEC 320), is the C13 (female outlet) and C14 (male inlet) > combination. > You are correct, of course. The actually IEC 320 spec (or whatever it's called now -- EN60320, perhaps) is not cheap. I think I discovered that to gert the whole thing would coat around \pounds1000 and (a) I don't have that sort of money and (b) if I did, I'd have better things to spend it on. However, when I was writing about the HP9800s, I did try to track down thge correct names for these connectors. As far as I can see IEC320 C14 is the chassis-mouting input plug used on most eleectrical equipment. IEC320 C13 is trhe cable mounting socket o nthe end of the mains lead It appears to be incrrect to call the chassis socket (like the one on an IBM 5150 PSU to plug the 5151 monitor into) a C13. The best reference I could find called those : IEC 320-2-2 Sheet F for the chassis socket (power outlet) and IEC 320-2-2 Sheet E for the cable plug (as on the end of the 5151 monitor mains lead). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 29 15:36:23 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 21:36:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT : old US Telephone hybrid ('Network' block) Message-ID: THis is off-topic, I know, but I suspect there are some people here interested in old telephones. I have a Western Electric 500 telehpne on the bench. The standard US rotary dial one. As you may know, all the small components and the anti-sidetone transformer ('induction coil') are in the metal box kown as the 'Network'. This is the normal type 425 unit Anyway, I've remvoed this from the rest of the 'phone by disconencting the wiring and drillign out the rivets (this was standard practice accordign to one of the official repair manuals I read). I can refit it using 6-2 UNC screws whcih are a perfect fit. The 425 network was not field rpeairiable, and I can see why. After bending up the tabs, I slid off the can to reveal the components in a particularlly evil potting compound. It's not hard, it's sticky, I can be scraped off (but I spent good quarter of an hour clenaing a screwdriver after this). It will soften with heat (in fact a hot air paint stripper gun wil lget it to drip off, but I was gettign the thing so hot that the plastic terminal board was softening too). No solvent I have tried will remove it. The BSP docuemtns simply call it an 'insulating medium' which is not much help :-). Has anyone ever repaired such a Network block and knows how to shift this stuff? -tony From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Mar 29 15:52:00 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 17:52:00 -0300 Subject: old US Telephone hybrid ('Network' block) References: Message-ID: <2DD1AA880F7D4BB1991EB40E96C56731@portajara> I bet the temperature that softens the " insulating media" is waaaaaaaaaaay lover than the temperature that melts the terminal block. You can use a SMD hot air station to blow air on the box and let the goop go --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 5:36 PM Subject: OT : old US Telephone hybrid ('Network' block) > THis is off-topic, I know, but I suspect there are some people here > interested in old telephones. > > I have a Western Electric 500 telehpne on the bench. The standard US > rotary dial one. > > As you may know, all the small components and the anti-sidetone > transformer ('induction coil') are in the metal box kown as the > 'Network'. This is the normal type 425 unit > > Anyway, I've remvoed this from the rest of the 'phone by disconencting > the wiring and drillign out the rivets (this was standard practice > accordign to one of the official repair manuals I read). I can refit it > using 6-2 UNC screws whcih are a perfect fit. > > The 425 network was not field rpeairiable, and I can see why. After > bending up the tabs, I slid off the can to reveal the components in a > particularlly evil potting compound. It's not hard, it's sticky, I can be > scraped off (but I spent good quarter of an hour clenaing a screwdriver > after this). It will soften with heat (in fact a hot air paint stripper > gun wil lget it to drip off, but I was gettign the thing so hot that the > plastic terminal board was softening too). No solvent I have tried will > remove it. > > The BSP docuemtns simply call it an 'insulating medium' which is not much > help :-). > > Has anyone ever repaired such a Network block and knows how to shift this > stuff? > > -tony > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 29 15:58:08 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 13:58:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5150 in S100? In-Reply-To: <4D91143A.13769.E492C5@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4D916587.3010306@att.net> <4D91143A.13769.E492C5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20110329135307.J77174@shell.lmi.net> The Steve Ciarcia "Micromint"? PC used a terminal as it's default console. Its BIOS and/or I/O drivers might help as a starting point. But, because a significant portion of their users actually wanted a "real" 5150, they came out with an ISA board for it with a 5150 style keyboard interface. Studying that might help with building an S100 imitation of the 5150 keyboard interface. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From shumaker at att.net Tue Mar 29 16:00:29 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 14:00:29 -0700 Subject: IBM 5150 in S100? In-Reply-To: <4D91D600.7924.CC562E@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4D91143A.13769.E492C5@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D921FC6.6020607@att.net> <4D91D600.7924.CC562E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D92486D.50405@att.net> On 3/29/2011 12:52 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 29 Mar 2011 at 11:07, steve shumaker wrote: > > >> Helbig didn't say much about the relationship although I got the >> impression this was not something that Godbout was involved in - they >> were simply using their technology. Buried in the disks I have here >> are a stack of 5 1/4 floppies labeled "MS-DOS 2.0 OEM Support" No >> idea the contents. (He included over 200 pieces of media - mostly 8"- >> and I've yet to open any of them.") Much of the documentation appears >> to be a mix of MSDOS and CPRO BIOS listings. The company was "G and >> G Engineering" >> > I'll have to see if I have anything on it, but this would more likely > be from the PC-DOS 1.1 era. I still have my notes from working with > the OEM MS-DOS 2.0 kit; it was really the first version that had > decent OEM documentation--compared to 1.25, it was wonderful. What's > particularly funny is the stated goal of eventually merging DOS and > Xenix. File that one with Microsoft OS/2 3.0... > > --Chuck > > > Based on some of the cryptic notes I've found, they actually had a 1.1 version of MS-DOS running on a CPRO system. They were apparently working on ver 2.0 when they abandoned the effort... Interesting! I'm just starting to look through a lot of the stuff that came with it as part of a big scan-to-file effort to be rid of anything hardcopy-wise not of collectible value. As it progresses, I'll let you know what I find. It would eventually be fun to fire up an S100 box with MS-DOS. Steve From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Mar 29 16:04:08 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 14:04:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT : old US Telephone hybrid ('Network' block) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Mar 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > The 425 network was not field rpeairiable, and I can see why. After > bending up the tabs, I slid off the can to reveal the components in a > particularlly evil potting compound. It's not hard, it's sticky, I can be > scraped off (but I spent good quarter of an hour clenaing a screwdriver > after this). It will soften with heat (in fact a hot air paint stripper > gun wil lget it to drip off, but I was gettign the thing so hot that the > plastic terminal board was softening too). No solvent I have tried will > remove it. > > The BSP docuemtns simply call it an 'insulating medium' which is not much > help :-). > > Has anyone ever repaired such a Network block and knows how to shift this > stuff? Here's a replacement for $20: http://www.oldphoneworks.com/network-425.html -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 29 16:12:38 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 14:12:38 -0700 Subject: OT : old US Telephone hybrid ('Network' block) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D91E8D6.14898.115EABA@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Mar 2011 at 21:36, Tony Duell wrote: > Has anyone ever repaired such a Network block and knows how to shift > this stuff? No, but it sounds like plain old pitch. It's still used (I get brass instrument leadpipes pre-filled with the stuff for kink-less bending). Apply heat, but not too aggressively--if it catches fire, the smoke is really nasty. A heat gun on a low setting might do the trick. --CHuck From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Mar 29 16:52:18 2011 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 17:52:18 -0400 Subject: OSI C1P currently on ebay... Message-ID: <0a9b01cbee5b$9324d3d0$b96e7b70$@sudbrink@verizon.net> To anyone who might be considering bidding on this lot: http://cgi.ebay.com/OSI-Ohio-Scientific-Challenger-1P-/160565653395?pt=LH_De faultDomain_0&hash=item2562756f93 I would suggest that you look closely at the enlarged version of the third photograph. The case does not appear to contain a full "Superboard" OSI 600 board. I'm not sure what this thing is, but it is not a normal C1P. In the fifth photo, I think you can see the cable header for the video and cassette I/O hanging loose inside the case. Bill Sudbrink From ken at seefried.com Tue Mar 29 17:50:43 2011 From: ken at seefried.com (KJ Seefried) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 18:50:43 -0400 Subject: Unusual CMD SCSI thing... Anyone know what this is? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D926243.3050207@seefried.com> On 3/29/11 4:58 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On 3/29/11 1:50 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: >> > On Mon, 28 Mar 2011 11:50:01 -0400 >> > Dave McGuire wrote: >> > >>> >> Can the 53C90B be coaxed into doing DSSI? >> > The PCI DSSI adapters (KFPSA?), that I got with an AlphaServer once >> > uppon a time long gone, contained NCR 53C825 SCSI processors. AFAIK >> > those chips include a complete RISC microcontroler and can be tought >> > to talk neary any "language". > Sweet machine. I know the later chips are programmable, but the > 53C90B is a very old design, and I didn't think the built-in processor > was introduced that early. > Correct. The 53c9xy chips had a fixed-function, state-machine based architecture. The SCRIPTS processor was, as I recall, introduced with the 53c700 and improved in the 53c810 line. Nifty stuff, if you're into that sort of thing. KJ From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 29 19:58:20 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 20:58:20 -0400 Subject: Unusual CMD SCSI thing... Anyone know what this is? In-Reply-To: <4D926243.3050207@seefried.com> References: <4D926243.3050207@seefried.com> Message-ID: <4D92802C.4070307@neurotica.com> On 3/29/11 6:50 PM, KJ Seefried wrote: >>>> >> Can the 53C90B be coaxed into doing DSSI? >>> > The PCI DSSI adapters (KFPSA?), that I got with an AlphaServer once >>> > uppon a time long gone, contained NCR 53C825 SCSI processors. AFAIK >>> > those chips include a complete RISC microcontroler and can be tought >>> > to talk neary any "language". >> Sweet machine. I know the later chips are programmable, but the >> 53C90B is a very old design, and I didn't think the built-in processor >> was introduced that early. > > Correct. The 53c9xy chips had a fixed-function, state-machine based > architecture. The SCRIPTS processor was, as I recall, introduced with > the 53c700 and improved in the 53c810 line. Nifty stuff, if you're into > that sort of thing. Which I am! =) Thanks for the clarification; I knew it was something along those lines. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Mar 29 21:55:31 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 22:55:31 -0400 Subject: Dead Powerbook 170 Message-ID: <720F48264E1F43EC8293229777EFA2FD@dell8300> I got an Apple Powerbook 170 (68030) from ebay a week ago and today I got a power brick to test it out. The seller said it was dead when he tried to power it (with what power brick and voltage I don't know). I tried it with a 7.5V 2A Sony power brick with the correct end and got nothing (tried it with the main battery removed). Took the unit apart and checked the main fuse and it is ok. The only thing I can see damaged are two power mosfets on the bottom of the board that melted into the bottom plastics (solder on the parts is discolored and one of the legs to ground reads 148 Ohms resistance on both units). The parts are both IRFR9020 (labeled as Q41 and Q43 on the motherboard) https://picasaweb.google.com/107784270771159898725/Broken#5589655970400132978 <== shows location http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/115896/IRF/IRFR9020.html <== data sheet Nothing else seems physically blown so I wonder if just swapping those parts out will fix it? Since I don't see the exact International Rectifier part number on ebay what else can I substitute for it? For example we have this part on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/Lot-3-P-Channel-Power-MOSFET-15A-60V-0-15Ohm-SMT-SMD-/110293044067 but I don't know how important the Rds Ohm factor is. I have read that Apple original power brick had issues that would blow the surface mount fuse, but no idea what might have caused these chips to overheat so much (over voltage??). Any old Mac laptop people on this list know? Thanks TZ From shumaker at att.net Tue Mar 29 23:13:09 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 21:13:09 -0700 Subject: IBM 5150 in S100? In-Reply-To: <4D91D600.7924.CC562E@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4D91143A.13769.E492C5@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D921FC6.6020607@att.net> <4D91D600.7924.CC562E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D92ADD5.1050501@att.net> On 3/29/2011 12:52 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 29 Mar 2011 at 11:07, steve shumaker wrote: > > >> Helbig didn't say much about the relationship although I got the >> impression this was not something that Godbout was involved in - they >> were simply using their technology. Buried in the disks I have here >> are a stack of 5 1/4 floppies labeled "MS-DOS 2.0 OEM Support" No >> idea the contents. (He included over 200 pieces of media - mostly 8"- >> and I've yet to open any of them.") Much of the documentation appears >> to be a mix of MSDOS and CPRO BIOS listings. The company was "G and >> G Engineering" >> > I'll have to see if I have anything on it, but this would more likely > be from the PC-DOS 1.1 era. I still have my notes from working with > the OEM MS-DOS 2.0 kit; it was really the first version that had > decent OEM documentation--compared to 1.25, it was wonderful. What's > particularly funny is the stated goal of eventually merging DOS and > Xenix. File that one with Microsoft OS/2 3.0... > > --Chuck > > > Your original comment about Seattle Computer triggered a vague recollection so I went looking through the material and found a Seattle Computers Glossy Brochure from Dec 1983 that advertises business grade S100 systems with the 8086 CPU and MS-DOS 2.0. If I can get Google to cooperate, I'll push scans up to Picasa and post the link. Steve From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Wed Mar 30 01:06:29 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 07:06:29 +0100 Subject: IBM 5150 in S100? In-Reply-To: <20110329135307.J77174@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4D916587.3010306@att.net> <4D91143A.13769.E492C5@cclist.sydex.com> <20110329135307.J77174@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <68C3C36423124E09B88D990594DEA17E@RODSDEVSYSTEM> Hi I don?t know if this helps. I worked in VDU design and development in the mid 1970's. The keyboards used a system with a 74150 and I think a '154. These are a 16 line binary to decimal decode and an eight line to binary encoder. The outputs of the one and the inputs of the other formed a matrix with the keys (switches) at the junctions. A counter drove the inputs of one and the selects of the other. As soon as you got an output the counter stopped and its value became the pressed key value. Regards ? Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: 29 March 2011 21:58 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: IBM 5150 in S100? The Steve Ciarcia "Micromint"? PC used a terminal as it's default console. Its BIOS and/or I/O drivers might help as a starting point. But, because a significant portion of their users actually wanted a "real" 5150, they came out with an ISA board for it with a 5150 style keyboard interface. Studying that might help with building an S100 imitation of the 5150 keyboard interface. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Tue Mar 29 19:39:20 2011 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 20:39:20 -0400 Subject: masscomp stuff still available Message-ID: > From: Shawn Rutledge > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 00:57:41 -0700 > Subject: masscomp stuff still available > I already scrapped most of it, so what is left is the set of boards, > manuals, floppies and a mag tape, and one 8" hard drive. The boards > can fit in a medium flat rate box (I think, unless I missed something, > but it's a tight fit, depends how much bubble wrap I use) and the > manuals and disks etc. can go media mail, which will be quite cheap > considering the bulk. Anybody want it or should I just finally throw > it all in the recycling bin? > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Wolfgang Eichberger > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 11:05:01 +0200 > Subject: Re: masscomp stuff still available > Rhode Island Computer Museum seems to have one of this systems. (see > https://sites.google.com/site/ricmwarehouse/Home/equipment/masscomp). > maybe they need your stuff? > > -- > Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL > Operating System Collector > Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com > Homepage: www.eichberger.org Since we have no spares or documentation for the MASSCOMP, the RICM would gratefully accept a donation. If you are from the US you can even claim a tax deduction for a charitable donation. -- Michael Thompson From trebor77 at execpc.com Wed Mar 30 09:38:29 2011 From: trebor77 at execpc.com (Robert J. Stevens) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 09:38:29 -0500 Subject: S-100/5150 Seattle Dos In-Reply-To: <4D651AA4.4040404@execpc.com> References: <4D651AA4.4040404@execpc.com> Message-ID: <4D934065.2040700@execpc.com> I have a SSSD Floppy Marked SCP 86 Dos V1.0 and two Marked MS-DOS v2.0 by Seattle Computer Products. I also have a pair of NEC APC's and I was able to transfer the Programs from those floppies to Bootable APC MS-DOS V2.0 floppies and all the programs run. I am also in the process of trying to get a Copy of CompuPro's Concurrent DOS 4.1 to run on my CompuPro 816's. It will be interesting to see if the SCP Programs will run on it in PCMODE. I also had some SCP Cards but I Sold them to Marshall Machine out in Washington State who has a GAZELLE. It would also be interesting to see if these program would run on your S-100/5150 System if you get it up and running Bob in Wisconsin From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 30 10:29:06 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 11:29:06 -0400 Subject: IBM 5150 in S100? In-Reply-To: <68C3C36423124E09B88D990594DEA17E@RODSDEVSYSTEM> References: , <4D916587.3010306@att.net> <4D91143A.13769.E492C5@cclist.sydex.com> <20110329135307.J77174@shell.lmi.net> <68C3C36423124E09B88D990594DEA17E@RODSDEVSYSTEM> Message-ID: <4D934C42.5090802@neurotica.com> On 3/30/11 2:06 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > I don?t know if this helps. I worked in VDU design and development in the > mid 1970's. The keyboards used a system with a 74150 and I think a '154. > These are a 16 line binary to decimal decode and an eight line to binary > encoder. The outputs of the one and the inputs of the other formed a matrix > with the keys (switches) at the junctions. A counter drove the inputs of one > and the selects of the other. As soon as you got an output the counter > stopped and its value became the pressed key value. Fairly standard matrix scanner.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 30 13:06:23 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 19:06:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: old US Telephone hybrid ('Network' block) In-Reply-To: <2DD1AA880F7D4BB1991EB40E96C56731@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Mar 29, 11 05:52:00 pm Message-ID: > > > I bet the temperature that softens the " insulating media" is Maybe, but the termainl board certainly seems to melt very easily. > waaaaaaaaaaay lover than the temperature that melts the terminal block. You > can use a SMD hot air station to blow air on the box and let the goop go Oh, I managed to extract the intenrals from the box, But the box still contained quite a bit of gunge (not a problem, I could scrape that out, and I can also heat the box, being a metal can, to quite a high temperature without problems) and of course there's similar potting compound on the intenrals. I don't want to get those too hot for risk of damaging them. I can indentify the expected ocmponents in there -- (2 varistors that look like disks with metal coating on the surfaces), the anti-sidetone transformer ('induction coil'. call it what you like :-)), some normal-looking resisotrrs, and a stack of 2 capacitors in a clip holder thing. But with the gunge all overe them it's not easy to work on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 30 13:09:22 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 19:09:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 5150 in S100? In-Reply-To: <20110329135307.J77174@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Mar 29, 11 01:58:08 pm Message-ID: > > The Steve Ciarcia "Micromint"? PC used a terminal as it's default console. > Its BIOS and/or I/O drivers might help as a starting point. > > But, because a significant portion of their users actually wanted a "real" > 5150, they came out with an ISA board for it with a 5150 style keyboard > interface. Studying that might help with building an S100 imitation of > the 5150 keyboard interface. Unlike the PC/AT (5170) and later machines, the 5150 (PC) (and thus the 5160 (XT)) keyboard interfaces did not use a custom-programmed microcotnroller at the motherboard end. Insted, the 5150/5160 used a TTL shidt register (74LS323 I think), and a bit of supporting logic. It was linked to the ports of an 8255 chip. The schematics are in the TechRef, of course, and since there are no programmed parts involved, that's all you would need to recreate it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 30 13:17:51 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 19:17:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT : old US Telephone hybrid ('Network' block) In-Reply-To: <4D91E8D6.14898.115EABA@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Mar 29, 11 02:12:38 pm Message-ID: > > On 29 Mar 2011 at 21:36, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Has anyone ever repaired such a Network block and knows how to shift > > this stuff? > > No, but it sounds like plain old pitch. It's still used (I get brass I forgot to mention the obvious physicl property -- the colour. It's almost transparent (slightly milky/translucent). Pitch is surely opaque black. Also, it does not disolve in any common solvents (so far I've tried propan-2-ol, metylated spirits, petrol, white spirt and a couple of different paint thinners). It is very sticky at room temperature. it's not really hard. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 30 13:13:42 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 19:13:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT : old US Telephone hybrid ('Network' block) In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Mar 29, 11 02:04:08 pm Message-ID: > > Has anyone ever repaired such a Network block and knows how to shift this > > stuff? > > Here's a replacement for $20: > http://www.oldphoneworks.com/network-425.html Thank you for that link. I'd not come across that company before, and while their prices for complete phones are rahter too high for me. they have lots of spares at affordable prices which will be useful. One annoying thing is that, in common with just aobut all other old telephone sellers, they say much mroe about the outsides than the internals. I would love to get a DTMF phone with the origianl 1-tranistor,no ICs encoder (the one wit hthe 2 pot cores on the back). Needless to say I don't care what colour or style the phone is, my interest is in the circuirty, But I've yet to find a phone listed anywhere where that sort of thing is specified. Hwoever, getting back to this 'Network' since when have I been known to replace something if there's any chance I could repair it :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 30 13:21:35 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 19:21:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dead Powerbook 170 In-Reply-To: <720F48264E1F43EC8293229777EFA2FD@dell8300> from "Teo Zenios" at Mar 29, 11 10:55:31 pm Message-ID: > > I got an Apple Powerbook 170 (68030) from ebay a week ago and today I = > got a power brick to test it out. The seller said it was dead when he = > tried to power it (with what power brick and voltage I don't know). I = > tried it with a 7.5V 2A Sony power brick with the correct end and got = > nothing (tried it with the main battery removed). Took the unit apart = > and checked the main fuse and it is ok. The only thing I can see damaged = > are two power mosfets on the bottom of the board that melted into the = > bottom plastics (solder on the parts is discolored and one of the legs = > to ground reads 148 Ohms resistance on both units). > > The parts are both IRFR9020 (labeled as Q41 and Q43 on the motherboard) > > https://picasaweb.google.com/107784270771159898725/Broken#558965597040013= > 2978 <=3D=3D shows location=20 > > http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/115896/IRF/IRFR9020.html = > <=3D=3D data sheet > > Nothing else seems physically blown so I wonder if just swapping those = > parts out will fix it? Since I don't see the exact International = > Rectifier part number on ebay what else can I substitute for it? For = > example we have this part on ebay:=20 I never think of E-bay as a source of components. I am quite sure that most E-bay sellers are honest, but since components are something I can't repair and are thus worthless if faulty, I prefer to deal with a well-known company. In this case, it appears that the origianl part is easily available. I looked at Farnell and Digikey, both sell it. I am sure plenty of other places do too. In this case, I'd fit the original part. Whether that will cure your problems, I don't know. I have never seen inside such a machine so I have no idea as to the circuitry and what ele might have failed. -tony From shumaker at att.net Wed Mar 30 14:22:37 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 12:22:37 -0700 Subject: IBM 5150 in S100? In-Reply-To: <4D92ADD5.1050501@att.net> References: , <4D91143A.13769.E492C5@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D921FC6.6020607@att.net> <4D91D600.7924.CC562E@cclist.sydex.com> <4D92ADD5.1050501@att.net> Message-ID: <4D9382FD.8080905@att.net> On 3/29/2011 9:13 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > On 3/29/2011 12:52 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 29 Mar 2011 at 11:07, steve shumaker wrote: >> >>> Helbig didn't say much about the relationship although I got the >>> impression this was not something that Godbout was involved in - they >>> were simply using their technology. Buried in the disks I have here >>> are a stack of 5 1/4 floppies labeled "MS-DOS 2.0 OEM Support" No >>> idea the contents. (He included over 200 pieces of media - mostly 8"- >>> and I've yet to open any of them.") Much of the documentation appears >>> to be a mix of MSDOS and CPRO BIOS listings. The company was "G and >>> G Engineering" >> I'll have to see if I have anything on it, but this would more likely >> be from the PC-DOS 1.1 era. I still have my notes from working with >> the OEM MS-DOS 2.0 kit; it was really the first version that had >> decent OEM documentation--compared to 1.25, it was wonderful. What's >> particularly funny is the stated goal of eventually merging DOS and >> Xenix. File that one with Microsoft OS/2 3.0... >> >> --Chuck >> >> > Your original comment about Seattle Computer triggered a vague > recollection so I went looking through the material and found a > Seattle Computers Glossy Brochure from Dec 1983 that advertises > business grade S100 systems with the 8086 CPU and MS-DOS 2.0. If I > can get Google to cooperate, I'll push scans up to Picasa and post the > link. > > > > Steve > Seattle Computer Products Brochure and price sheet Here's the link to the scans: https://picasaweb.google.com/114639080007220617932/SeattleComputerBrochure?feat=directlink steve From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 30 14:25:02 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 15:25:02 -0400 Subject: Dead Powerbook 170 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D93838E.4010307@neurotica.com> On 3/30/11 2:21 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Nothing else seems physically blown so I wonder if just swapping those = >> parts out will fix it? Since I don't see the exact International = >> Rectifier part number on ebay what else can I substitute for it? For = >> example we have this part on ebay:=20 > > I never think of E-bay as a source of components. I am quite sure that > most E-bay sellers are honest, but since components are something I can't > repair and are thus worthless if faulty, I prefer to deal with a > well-known company. It's fine, actually. Don't buy random piles of unpackaged parts, obviously. Buy stuff is still sealed and properly packaged. I've been doing it for ten years, many hundreds of transactions, thousands of components. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 30 14:31:43 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 20:31:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dead Powerbook 170 In-Reply-To: <4D93838E.4010307@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Mar 30, 11 03:25:02 pm Message-ID: > > I never think of E-bay as a source of components. I am quite sure that > > most E-bay sellers are honest, but since components are something I can't > > repair and are thus worthless if faulty, I prefer to deal with a > > well-known company. > > It's fine, actually. Don't buy random piles of unpackaged parts, I'm sure it is. Most e-bay sellers [1] seem to be totally honest, and if they claim to be shipping new ICs in the manufacturers tubes (say), I am sure that's what you'll get. On the other hand, you get the odd defective part from even well-knwon distributors. Again, I am sure most E-bay sellers will refund/replace under such circumstances, but it could be a hassle. It's probably totally irrational, but I will stick to the likes of Farnell, Digikey, RS components, etc. However, to get back to the original question, if a component is not listed on E-bay but is available from a reputable distributor, I'd not try to find a substitute for it. And actually, in my case, if I needed a part that I couldn't find from a distributor and it was listed on E-bay, I'd probably buy the latter. -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Mar 30 14:51:23 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 12:51:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: old US Telephone hybrid ('Network' block) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Mar 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > like disks with metal coating on the surfaces), the anti-sidetone > transformer ('induction coil'. call it what you like :-)), some Tony, what function does an "anti-sidetone" transformer perform? Is it a filter of some kind? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From chrise at pobox.com Wed Mar 30 19:21:21 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 19:21:21 -0500 Subject: OT : old US Telephone hybrid ('Network' block) In-Reply-To: References: <4D91E8D6.14898.115EABA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20110331002121.GX5266@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (03/30/2011 at 07:17PM +0100), Tony Duell wrote: > > > > On 29 Mar 2011 at 21:36, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > Has anyone ever repaired such a Network block and knows how to shift > > > this stuff? > > > > No, but it sounds like plain old pitch. It's still used (I get brass > > I forgot to mention the obvious physicl property -- the colour. It's > almost transparent (slightly milky/translucent). Pitch is surely opaque > black. > > Also, it does not disolve in any common solvents (so far I've tried > propan-2-ol, metylated spirits, petrol, white spirt and a couple of > different paint thinners). > > It is very sticky at room temperature. it's not really hard. Maybe you can freeze it with LN2, dry ice or in the kitchen freezer and then chip it away. -- Chris Elmquist From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Mar 30 20:43:24 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 20:43:24 -0500 Subject: old US Telephone hybrid ('Network' block) In-Reply-To: <2DD1AA880F7D4BB1991EB40E96C56731@portajara> References: <2DD1AA880F7D4BB1991EB40E96C56731@portajara> Message-ID: <201103310151.p2V1pCD8097039@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 03:52 PM 3/29/2011, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>The 425 network was not field rpeairiable, and I can see why. After >>bending up the tabs, I slid off the can to reveal the components in a >>particularlly evil potting compound. It's not hard, it's sticky, I can be >>scraped off I remember encountering it when I was kid, in a similar phone. Impossibly sticky. Probably full of PCBs or something. - John From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 30 21:17:08 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 19:17:08 -0700 Subject: old US Telephone hybrid ('Network' block) In-Reply-To: <201103310151.p2V1pCD8097039@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: , <2DD1AA880F7D4BB1991EB40E96C56731@portajara>, <201103310151.p2V1pCD8097039@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4D9381B4.31484.2307470@cclist.sydex.com> I found the following using google from a 1985 article. The trick seems to be to melt it: "To make sidetone adjustable, remove R4 (R5 in European networks) and replace it with R11 (for European networks use R12). The Western Electric Network comes point-to-point wired and sealed in a can; the other networks are mounted on PCBs. To remove R4 from the Western Electric network, the can has to be opened by bending the holding tabs. Don't be surprised to find that the network has been potted in a very sticky, odious paste that has the texture of hot chewing gum and the odor of unwashed shirts. (This material - alleged to be manufactured according to a secret formula - will not wash off with soap and water. The phone company has a solvent for it, but because one of the secret ingredients is said to be beeswax, ordinary beeswax solvents such as gum turpentine, mineral turpentine (paint thinner or white spirit) and kerosene will work.) To remove the bulk of the potting compound, heat the opened can for 30 minutes in a 300 degree F (148 degree C) oven, or apply heat from a hot hairdryer or heatgun. You can also put the can out in the hot sun under a sheet of glass. Don't use too much heat because the plastic terminal strip may melt. Even with a film of compound remaining on it, the network can be worked on." http://www.machacking.net/kb/files/phonepatches.txt Hmm, I've made similarly sticky stuff using beeswax and lanolin and a bit of varnish. Old-timey potting compounds are nasty. --Chuck From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Mar 30 21:29:04 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 19:29:04 -0700 Subject: You might be a geek/nerd if... In-Reply-To: <4D9381B4.31484.2307470@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: One of your roomies leaves circuit boards on your chair and you get excited over a ceramic 1980 8742 with eprom window on it and a AM2864 ceramic eeprom. (84 datecode) From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 30 21:31:35 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 22:31:35 -0400 Subject: You might be a geek/nerd if... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D93E787.80602@neurotica.com> On 3/30/11 10:29 PM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > One of your roomies leaves circuit boards on your chair and you get excited > over a ceramic 1980 8742 with eprom window on it and a AM2864 ceramic > eeprom. (84 datecode) Ooooh! Yes, I'd definitely grab for both of those! Socketed? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Mar 31 00:38:25 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 22:38:25 -0700 Subject: You might be a geek/nerd if... In-Reply-To: <4D93E787.80602@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Yes they were socketed, was part of some sort of access intercom system from an old apartment bldg. they upgraded them to a digital access system. Even if they weren't, I have a HAKKO808 desoldering gun and am damn good at desoldering with it :) On 3/30/11 7:31 PM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > On 3/30/11 10:29 PM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: >> One of your roomies leaves circuit boards on your chair and you get excited >> over a ceramic 1980 8742 with eprom window on it and a AM2864 ceramic >> eeprom. (84 datecode) > > Ooooh! Yes, I'd definitely grab for both of those! Socketed? > > -Dave From oe5ewl at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 00:59:05 2011 From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 07:59:05 +0200 Subject: You might be a geek/nerd if... In-Reply-To: References: <4D93E787.80602@neurotica.com> Message-ID: I'd grab those too. That's not the only habit of mine my wife's continuing shaking her head about, altough she's got no problem with that. She just finds this a bit funny. Okay, maybe she knows too few people who are happy about little ceramic buggers ;) -- Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL Operating System Collector Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com Homepage: www.eichberger.org 2011/3/31 Geoffrey Reed : > Yes they were socketed, was part of some sort of access intercom system from > an old apartment bldg. they upgraded them to a digital access system. > > > Even if they weren't, I have a HAKKO808 desoldering gun and am damn good at > desoldering with it :) > > On 3/30/11 7:31 PM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > >> On 3/30/11 10:29 PM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: >>> One of your roomies leaves circuit boards on your chair and you get excited >>> over a ceramic 1980 8742 with eprom window on it and a AM2864 ceramic >>> eeprom. (84 datecode) >> >> ? ?Ooooh! ?Yes, I'd definitely grab for both of those! ?Socketed? >> >> ? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave > > > From pr at kansasfest.org Wed Mar 30 08:39:05 2011 From: pr at kansasfest.org (Ken Gagne) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 09:39:05 -0400 Subject: KansasFest 2011 registration now open Message-ID: <35DDE099-A357-48B6-8780-93052EC60776@kansasfest.org> KANSAS CITY, MO -- March 30, 2011 -- KansasFest, the 22nd annual convention dedicated to the Apple II computer, is now open for registration. Users, programmers, hobbyists, and retrocomputing enthusiasts are invited to Rockhurst University in Kansas City, Missouri, from Tuesday, July 19, 2011, through Sunday, July 24, for six days and five nights of sessions, demos, announcements, contests, and camaraderie. The week kicks off with keynote speaker Bob Bishop, co-founder of Apple's R&D lab alongside Steve Wozniak and creator of many popular Apple II programs and articles. Several sessions and workshops are scheduled throughout the rest of the week, including but not limited to: * Ivan Drucker's tutorial for putting your Apple II on a LAN * Build your own Apple II MP3 expansion card workshop by Vince Briel * A look at the Apple III's technical aspects and modern accessories, by Mike Maginnis * A live-action text adventure, hosted by Ken Gagne * A behind-the-scenes look at the Open Apple podcast * The latest on Apple's iOS mobile devices by Rob Walch of the Today in iPhone podcast * A vendor fair that includes an exhibit hall for attendees to show off and play with new or unusual hardware and software * HackFest, an annual programming challenge open to coders of all skill levels What the schedule can't predict is the variety of surprises that are a hallmark of KansasFest. Recent years have seen the debut of a new, boxed Apple II game; the reclassification of Resource Central's catalog; a "lunch and learn" session on Apple IIc disassembly; and many other announcements and demonstrations. Attendees are encouraged to share their knowledge by presenting their own hardware and software sessions, especially of the Apple II but also including Macintosh, Windows, Linux, iOS, and others. Register before June 1 to guarantee a price of $365 for a double room or $435 for a single, which includes admission to all sessions as well as most meals. Official KansasFest shirts and Vince Briel's MP3 workshop are extra and optional and must be ordered by May 31; registration for staying on-site closes July 10. Veterans of the event are invited to bring a first-time attendee; if each indicates the other's name on the registration form, both will receive a $25 referral rebate at the event. To register, please visit the official Web site at http://www.kansasfest.org/ KansasFest sponsor 16 Sector invites any and all Apple II users, fans, and friends to attend the world's only annual Apple II conference. For photos, schedules, presentations from past year's events, and inquiries, please visit the event's Web site. CONTACT: Email: http://www.kansasfest.org/contact/ Register: http://www.kansasfest.org/register/ Twitter: http://twitter.com/kansasfest Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=192182347486252 From nathan at nathanpralle.com Wed Mar 30 10:35:28 2011 From: nathan at nathanpralle.com (Nathan Pralle) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 10:35:28 -0500 Subject: KansasFest 2011 registration now open In-Reply-To: <35DDE099-A357-48B6-8780-93052EC60776@kansasfest.org> References: <35DDE099-A357-48B6-8780-93052EC60776@kansasfest.org> Message-ID: <4D934DC0.80509@nathanpralle.com> Two questions pop up immediately: 1. Will there be day passes for those who won't or can't spend an entire week? 2. If #1 is true, will we be able to see daily schedules prior so we can pick which days are most interested to us? Nathan On 3/30/2011 8:39 AM, Ken Gagne wrote: > KANSAS CITY, MO -- March 30, 2011 -- KansasFest, the 22nd annual convention dedicated to the Apple II computer, is now open for registration. Users, programmers, hobbyists, and retrocomputing enthusiasts are invited to Rockhurst University in Kansas City, Missouri, from Tuesday, July 19, 2011, through Sunday, July 24, for six days and five nights of sessions, demos, announcements, contests, and camaraderie. > > The week kicks off with keynote speaker Bob Bishop, co-founder of Apple's R&D lab alongside Steve Wozniak and creator of many popular Apple II programs and articles. Several sessions and workshops are scheduled throughout the rest of the week, including but not limited to: > > * Ivan Drucker's tutorial for putting your Apple II on a LAN > * Build your own Apple II MP3 expansion card workshop by Vince Briel > * A look at the Apple III's technical aspects and modern accessories, by Mike Maginnis > * A live-action text adventure, hosted by Ken Gagne > * A behind-the-scenes look at the Open Apple podcast > * The latest on Apple's iOS mobile devices by Rob Walch of the Today in iPhone podcast > * A vendor fair that includes an exhibit hall for attendees to show off and play with new or unusual hardware and software > * HackFest, an annual programming challenge open to coders of all skill levels > > What the schedule can't predict is the variety of surprises that are a hallmark of KansasFest. Recent years have seen the debut of a new, boxed Apple II game; the reclassification of Resource Central's catalog; a "lunch and learn" session on Apple IIc disassembly; and many other announcements and demonstrations. Attendees are encouraged to share their knowledge by presenting their own hardware and software sessions, especially of the Apple II but also including Macintosh, Windows, Linux, iOS, and others. > > Register before June 1 to guarantee a price of $365 for a double room or $435 for a single, which includes admission to all sessions as well as most meals. Official KansasFest shirts and Vince Briel's MP3 workshop are extra and optional and must be ordered by May 31; registration for staying on-site closes July 10. Veterans of the event are invited to bring a first-time attendee; if each indicates the other's name on the registration form, both will receive a $25 referral rebate at the event. To register, please visit the official Web site at http://www.kansasfest.org/ > > KansasFest sponsor 16 Sector invites any and all Apple II users, fans, and friends to attend the world's only annual Apple II conference. For photos, schedules, presentations from past year's events, and inquiries, please visit the event's Web site. > > CONTACT: > > Email: http://www.kansasfest.org/contact/ > Register: http://www.kansasfest.org/register/ > Twitter: http://twitter.com/kansasfest > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=192182347486252 From robin at hx-20.com Wed Mar 30 12:04:31 2011 From: robin at hx-20.com (Robin England) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 18:04:31 +0100 Subject: DEC RL02 Message-ID: Hello all, I know someone who wants to recover data from one of these 10MB disk packs. They have no drive, no RLV12 controller and (unsurprisingly) no PDP-11. I haven?t seen the disk pack in question so I have absolutely no idea of the condition although I am led to believe it has been looked after, stored properly and doesn?t have a crash...! Of course the pack owner has no idea of the data they?re after (whether it be ASCII, EBCDIC, binary etc..) so that?s another unknown quantity! Is there anyone here who is able to assist with this? Maybe initially to produce a binary image of the disk for further exploration? If yes, (how much) would you charge for this service? Many thanks Robin From spedraja at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 17:14:41 2011 From: spedraja at gmail.com (SPC) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 00:14:41 +0200 Subject: PDP-8/E boards pack Message-ID: Hello. This pack of boards is more or less what I was searching for my PDP-8/E: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/DEC-Digital-PDP-8E-Boards-Core-Parts-Scrap-Gold-/110668383607 ...but is impossible to contact the seller. Someone could help me with this, please ? Contact off-list. -- Saludos - Greetings - Freundliche Gr??e - Salutations Sergio http://www.linkedin.com/in/sergiopedraja http://www.quora.com/Sergio-Pedraja ----- No crea todo lo que ve, ni crea que esta vi?ndolo todo From pr at kansasfest.org Wed Mar 30 20:18:25 2011 From: pr at kansasfest.org (Ken Gagne) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 21:18:25 -0400 Subject: KansasFest 2011 registration now open Message-ID: <28E52F97-124F-4073-935B-4A3BC971C7DB@kansasfest.org> Hi, Nathan -- > 1. Will there be day passes for those who won't or can't spend an entire week? Email kfest-help at kfest.org and something can likely be arranged. > 2. If #1 is true, will we be able to see daily schedules prior so we can pick which days are most interested to us? We do post our session schedule online, but usually not until sometime in July. There's a general schedule on the first page of the registration form: http://www.kansasfest.org/wp-content/uploads/kfest2011-register.pdf -Ken From pr at kansasfest.org Wed Mar 30 22:25:41 2011 From: pr at kansasfest.org (Ken Gagne) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 23:25:41 -0400 Subject: KansasFest 2011 registration now open In-Reply-To: <28E52F97-124F-4073-935B-4A3BC971C7DB@kansasfest.org> References: <28E52F97-124F-4073-935B-4A3BC971C7DB@kansasfest.org> Message-ID: Hi, Nathan -- > 1. Will there be day passes for those who won't or can't spend an entire week? Email kfest-help at kfest.org and something can likely be arranged. > 2. If #1 is true, will we be able to see daily schedules prior so we can pick which days are most interested to us? We do post our session schedule online, but usually not until sometime in July. There's a general schedule on the first page of the registration form: http://www.kansasfest.org/wp-content/uploads/kfest2011-register.pdf -Ken From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Mar 31 02:11:11 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 00:11:11 -0700 Subject: You might be a geek/nerd if... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 3/30/11 10:59 PM, "Wolfgang Eichberger" wrote: > I'd grab those too. That's not the only habit of mine my wife's > continuing shaking her head about, altough she's got no problem with > that. She just finds this a bit funny. Okay, maybe she knows too few > people who are happy about little ceramic buggers ;) My lady is just glad that I've gone from keeping boxes of old PC Boards, to pulling the useful parts off them and recycling the rest. From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 08:20:50 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 09:20:50 -0400 Subject: need a Pentium 75 and heatsink In-Reply-To: <4D90F489.8090602@neurotica.com> References: <4D90F489.8090602@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D947FB2.9020906@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On 3/28/11 4:37 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>>> I also don't do business w/heathen atheists. I'm also a vegetarian >>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>> If this is s joke, I think it's in very bad taste. If not, I think it's >>> objectionable. >>> >> S'ok Tony, us heathen atheists don't business with vegetarians[*]. >> >> >> * Ancient Indian word meaning "poor hunter". >> >> :) > > Plants are what food eats. I once saw a bumper sticker which read, "Vegetarians are what food eats." Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 31 09:12:53 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 10:12:53 -0400 Subject: need a Pentium 75 and heatsink In-Reply-To: <4D947FB2.9020906@gmail.com> References: <4D90F489.8090602@neurotica.com> <4D947FB2.9020906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4D948BE5.8060002@neurotica.com> On 3/31/11 9:20 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> S'ok Tony, us heathen atheists don't business with vegetarians[*]. >>> >>> * Ancient Indian word meaning "poor hunter". >>> >>> :) >> >> Plants are what food eats. > > I once saw a bumper sticker which read, "Vegetarians are what food eats." And this from my favorite vegetarian! ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From blstuart at bellsouth.net Thu Mar 31 09:44:58 2011 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 07:44:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: need a Pentium 75 and heatsink In-Reply-To: <4D947FB2.9020906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <785745.17007.qm@web83914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 3/31/11, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> S'ok Tony, us heathen atheists don't business with > vegetarians[*]. > >> > >> > >> * Ancient Indian word meaning "poor hunter". > >> > >> :) > > > > Plants are what food eats. > > I once saw a bumper sticker which read, "Vegetarians are > what food eats." I used to work with a guy who liked to say "I like vegetarians. They taste good." BLS From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Mar 31 10:44:30 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 08:44:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OSI C1P currently on ebay... In-Reply-To: <0a9b01cbee5b$9324d3d0$b96e7b70$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <690003.62745.qm@web121605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 3/29/11, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > To anyone who might be considering > bidding on this lot: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/OSI-Ohio-Scientific-Challenger-1P-/160565653395?pt=LH_De > faultDomain_0&hash=item2562756f93 > > I would suggest that you look closely at the enlarged > version > of the third photograph. The case does not appear to > contain > a full "Superboard" OSI 600 board. I'm not sure what > this thing > is, but it is not a normal C1P. In the fifth photo, I > think you > can see the cable header for the video and cassette I/O > hanging > loose inside the case. Hehe. And in the second photo, you can spot a foam packing peanut hiding inside the case... I love the fact that he says all the keys "seem to work", but yet the machine is "untested". So, what, they go down when pressed and come back up? How does that imply "working?". I can just see a similar exchange: "So - this car works?" "Oh, yes, you put the key in and it turns great!" "But, does it start?" "Oh, I don't know, I didn't put gas in it" "Well, what's the engine look like? Did you look under the hood?" "Cars don't open, silly." -Ian From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 11:37:09 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 11:37:09 -0500 Subject: OSI C1P currently on ebay... In-Reply-To: <0a9b01cbee5b$9324d3d0$b96e7b70$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <0a9b01cbee5b$9324d3d0$b96e7b70$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4D94ADB5.4080208@gmail.com> Bill Sudbrink wrote: > I would suggest that you look closely at the enlarged version > of the third photograph. The case does not appear to contain > a full "Superboard" OSI 600 board. I'm not sure what this thing > is, but it is not a normal C1P. In the fifth photo, I think you > can see the cable header for the video and cassette I/O hanging > loose inside the case. Oh come on, this is ebay... that just makes it extra-rare and worth twice the price ;-) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Mar 31 11:42:41 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 10:42:41 -0600 Subject: OSI C1P currently on ebay... In-Reply-To: <4D94ADB5.4080208@gmail.com> References: <0a9b01cbee5b$9324d3d0$b96e7b70$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <4D94ADB5.4080208@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4D94AF01.2070809@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/31/2011 10:37 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Bill Sudbrink wrote: >> I would suggest that you look closely at the enlarged version of >> the third photograph. The case does not appear to contain a full >> "Superboard" OSI 600 board. I'm not sure what this thing is, but it >> is not a normal C1P. In the fifth photo, I think you can see the >> cable header for the video and cassette I/O hanging loose inside >> the case. > > Oh come on, this is ebay... that just makes it extra-rare and worth > twice the price ;-) > Twice Nothing is still nothing. > From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Mar 31 13:00:24 2011 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 14:00:24 -0400 Subject: OSI C1P currently on ebay... In-Reply-To: <4D94AF01.2070809@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0a9b01cbee5b$9324d3d0$b96e7b70$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <4D94ADB5.4080208@gmail.com> <4D94AF01.2070809@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <005101cbefcd$82d6f210$8884d630$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Ah! There I would disagree. The case is not in half bad shape. If you have Superboard you would like to mount, it could be just the thing for you. That said, I think around $100 US is about the top of its value. From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ben Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 12:43 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: OSI C1P currently on ebay... On 3/31/2011 10:37 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Bill Sudbrink wrote: >> I would suggest that you look closely at the enlarged version of >> the third photograph. The case does not appear to contain a full >> "Superboard" OSI 600 board. I'm not sure what this thing is, but it >> is not a normal C1P. In the fifth photo, I think you can see the >> cable header for the video and cassette I/O hanging loose inside >> the case. > > Oh come on, this is ebay... that just makes it extra-rare and worth > twice the price ;-) > Twice Nothing is still nothing. > _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1209 / Virus Database: 1500/3542 - Release Date: 03/31/11 From shumaker at att.net Thu Mar 31 13:13:34 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 11:13:34 -0700 Subject: 1964 computer/controller unit in OH In-Reply-To: <4D94AF01.2070809@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0a9b01cbee5b$9324d3d0$b96e7b70$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <4D94ADB5.4080208@gmail.com> <4D94AF01.2070809@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4D94C44E.9060500@att.net> Especially for those who like blinkenlights interesting looking unit on CL in Parma OH described as a wire wrapped computer/controller for an X-Y Drilling machine. supposedly built at Bell Labs in 1964 mentions a paper tape reader port. Might an early CNC system item no is 2289527889 on Cleveland CL From legalize at xmission.com Thu Mar 31 14:22:56 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 13:22:56 -0600 Subject: OSI C1P currently on ebay... In-Reply-To: <005101cbefcd$82d6f210$8884d630$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <0a9b01cbee5b$9324d3d0$b96e7b70$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <4D94ADB5.4080208@gmail.com> <4D94AF01.2070809@jetnet.ab.ca> <005101cbefcd$82d6f210$8884d630$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: In article <005101cbefcd$82d6f210$8884d630$@sudbrink at verizon.net>, "Bill Sudbrink" writes: > like to mount, it could be just the thing for you. That said, I think > around $100 US is about the top of its value. I disagree, based on the ebay selling prices of previous OSI Challenger product. Remember, the "value" of something is always in the eye of the seller, not what you think its worth. Famous works of art are worth millions of dollars because someone is willing to pay millions of dollars for them at auction. Its not the consensus of the dealers or critics that sets the price. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jws at jwsss.com Thu Mar 31 14:34:35 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 12:34:35 -0700 Subject: 1964 computer/controller unit in OH In-Reply-To: <4D94C44E.9060500@att.net> References: <0a9b01cbee5b$9324d3d0$b96e7b70$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <4D94ADB5.4080208@gmail.com> <4D94AF01.2070809@jetnet.ab.ca> <4D94C44E.9060500@att.net> Message-ID: <4D94D74B.2070706@jwsss.com> On 3/31/2011 11:13 AM, steve shumaker wrote: > Bell Labs in 1964 I did not find any item at your number on epay. I did find this interesting Bell Labs item 150491321756 Can you verify if the auction for the drilling machine is still there, or see if you dropped a digit in posting it? I'm getting nothing, and am interested in looking at it a least. jim From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 14:43:00 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 20:43:00 +0100 Subject: 1964 computer/controller unit in OH In-Reply-To: <4D94D74B.2070706@jwsss.com> References: <4D94ADB5.4080208@gmail.com> <4D94AF01.2070809@jetnet.ab.ca> <4D94C44E.9060500@att.net> <4D94D74B.2070706@jwsss.com> Message-ID: craigslist http://cleveland.craigslist.org/sys/2289527889.html Dave Caroline On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 8:34 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: > On 3/31/2011 11:13 AM, steve shumaker wrote: >> >> Bell Labs in 1964 > > I did not find any item at your number on epay. > > I did find this interesting Bell Labs item 150491321756 > > Can you verify if the auction for the drilling machine is still there, or > see if you dropped a digit in posting it? ?I'm getting nothing, and am > interested in looking at it a least. > jim > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 31 14:10:34 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 20:10:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: old US Telephone hybrid ('Network' block) In-Reply-To: <201103310151.p2V1pCD8097039@billY.EZWIND.NET> from "John Foust" at Mar 30, 11 08:43:24 pm Message-ID: > >>The 425 network was not field rpeairiable, and I can see why. After > >>bending up the tabs, I slid off the can to reveal the components in a > >>particularlly evil potting compound. It's not hard, it's sticky, I can be > >>scraped off > > I remember encountering it when I was kid, in a similar phone. > Impossibly sticky. Probably full of PCBs or something. Yes, that's the stuff alright. It gets on everything, particularly fingertips, which makes it very difficult to handle small parts. I could make a terrible joke using the other meaning of 'PCB' (the one more commonly used in electronics) and say that the problem with this network is the lack of PCBs. The other brands of American telephone I have, and all the British ones, hae the components on a normal SRBP PCB which is easy to repair. Anyway, the potting compound doesn't smell like the Polychlorinated biphenyls that I am used to. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 31 14:30:04 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 20:30:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: You might be a geek/nerd if... In-Reply-To: from "Geoffrey Reed" at Mar 30, 11 07:29:04 pm Message-ID: > > One of your roomies leaves circuit boards on your chair and you get excited Actually, I think you can stop right there... You might be a geek/nerd/hardware hacker if people think you will want old PCBs :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 31 13:59:09 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 19:59:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: old US Telephone hybrid ('Network' block) In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Mar 30, 11 12:51:23 pm Message-ID: > > On Wed, 30 Mar 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > > > like disks with metal coating on the surfaces), the anti-sidetone > > transformer ('induction coil'. call it what you like :-)), some > > Tony, what function does an "anti-sidetone" transformer perform? Is it a > filter of some kind? In telephony, 'sidetone' means the signal in your receiver due to thr signal from your transmitter. If you are not careful, the sounds you hear from your own speech are son strong that the user talks too quietly. On the other hand, if there is no sidetone, the user is inclined to shout. If you subtact your locally-generated signal from the signal on the line (which, of course, ilncludes said local signal), you end up with only the signal from the other telepghone. If you do it perfectly, yuou have no didetone at all, by varying the rations you can get jsut enough sidetone to make the telephone easy to use. There are many ways of doing this subtaction. The older modems I work on tend to use a couple of op-amps. Modernt landline telephones often use a disctrete transistor circuit(2 or 3 transistors [1]). Older telephones both in the UK and US (and I assume elsewhere) use an audio transformer, often called (at least in the UK), the 'induction coil'. There is such a transformer in the 'Network' block I metnioned. [1] The cheap telephone I bought from Maplin to use with my line simulator uses 3 bipoloar transistors for this. You could also look at the manual for the Elenco telepohone kit (available on their website) to see a 2 transistor circuit. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 31 14:05:33 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 20:05:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT : old US Telephone hybrid ('Network' block) In-Reply-To: <20110331002121.GX5266@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Mar 30, 11 07:21:21 pm Message-ID: > > It is very sticky at room temperature. it's not really hard. > > Maybe you can freeze it with LN2, dry ice or in the kitchen freezer > and then chip it away. My experience is that it's a lot easier to remove soft potting compouds without damaging the stuff inside than hard ones. I don't think cooling it will ehlp -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 31 14:21:27 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 20:21:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: old US Telephone hybrid ('Network' block) In-Reply-To: <4D9381B4.31484.2307470@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Mar 30, 11 07:17:08 pm Message-ID: > > I found the following using google from a 1985 article. The trick > seems to be to melt it: > > "To make sidetone adjustable, remove R4 (R5 in European > networks) and replace it with R11 (for European networks use Given that there is no standard European netowrk, I am not sure quite wwhat this is saying. > R12). The Western Electric Network comes point-to-point wired > and sealed in a can; the other networks are mounted on PCBs. To Yes, thankfully. I think I have 4 American telepghones. A WE/Bell 500 (rotary dail, with this potted network block) A WE/Bell 564 (rotary dial, 5 line select buttons, again with the network block. No I don't have a relay set for it) A AE/GTE rotary dial telephone/ There's a PCB in the bottom carrying the hybrid netowrk components and the hookswitch. A 2500 DTMF set made by one of the ITT-related companies. This has a smaller PCB (about the size of the network block in a WE phone) carrying the hybrid network componetns/ The hookswtich is separately mounted to the baseplate. This one has the rather odd 'chuttling ball' ringer. Alas it ahs the modern DTMF dialer with an IC on it (it's a 5089 or similar, I am sure). Needless to say the PCBs don;t pose any real problems. Incidentally, if anoy needs information on such telephoens, I've found the sties http://www.telephonecollectors.info/ and http://www.telephonetribute.com/ are worth looking at. > remove R4 from the Western Electric network, the can has to be > opened by bending the holding tabs. Don't be surprised to find > that the network has been potted in a very sticky, odious paste > that has the texture of hot chewing gum and the odor of unwashed Tha'ts the stuff alright ;-(. I fon't remember any smell though. > shirts. (This material - alleged to be manufactured according to > a secret formula - will not wash off with soap and water. The Yes, I gound out that soap and water was no good when I got it all over my hands... I am suprised the formula was so secret, given that the scheamtics, etc exist. > phone company has a solvent for it, but because one of the secret > ingredients is said to be beeswax, ordinary beeswax solvents such > as gum turpentine, mineral turpentine (paint thinner or white > spirit) and kerosene will work.) To remove the bulk of the Interesting. I am suprised the solvents I tried didn't appear to have much effect. However, I may well try putting the module and can in some white spirit (about the cheapest of those solvents) and leaving it. > potting compound, heat the opened can for 30 minutes in a 300 > degree F (148 degree C) oven, or apply heat from a hot hairdryer > or heatgun. You can also put the can out in the hot sun under a > sheet of glass. Don't use too much heat because the plastic > terminal strip may melt. Even with a film of compound remaining Yes, I discovereth that the hard way ;-) > on it, the network can be worked on." > > http://www.machacking.net/kb/files/phonepatches.txt > > Hmm, I've made similarly sticky stuff using beeswax and lanolin and a > bit of varnish. > > Old-timey potting compounds are nasty. I think some of the mdoern ones are even hardter to remove without damaing the internals... -tony From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Mar 31 14:52:59 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 08:52:59 +1300 Subject: OSI C1P currently on ebay... References: <0a9b01cbee5b$9324d3d0$b96e7b70$@sudbrink@verizon.net><4D94ADB5.4080208@gmail.com> <4D94AF01.2070809@jetnet.ab.ca><005101cbefcd$82d6f210$8884d630$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: > Famous works of art are worth millions of dollars because someone is > willing to pay millions of dollars for them at auction. Its not the > consensus of the dealers or critics that sets the price. Just a general comment on "worth". There are two types here. There is the worth or value of something to the individual. Then there is the market worth or value, which is the price others are prepared to pay for it. The two often match up but not necessarily so, especially if the value to the individual is due to deeply personal reasons (taste, nostalgia, etc.) Terry From drb at msu.edu Thu Mar 31 14:54:03 2011 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 15:54:03 -0400 Subject: old US Telephone hybrid ('Network' block) In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 31 Mar 2011 19:59:09 BST.) References: Message-ID: <20110331195403.89724A5825F@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > There are many ways of doing this subtaction. The older modems I work on > tend to use a couple of op-amps. Modernt landline telephones often use a > disctrete transistor circuit(2 or 3 transistors [1]). Older telephones > both in the UK and US (and I assume elsewhere) use an audio transformer, > often called (at least in the UK), the 'induction coil'. There is such a > transformer in the 'Network' block I metnioned. For those on the left side of the atlantic, the old ratshack book "Understanding Telephone Electronics" has a diagram and explanation of the hybrid, among other useful things. De From legalize at xmission.com Thu Mar 31 15:00:35 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 14:00:35 -0600 Subject: OSI C1P currently on ebay... In-Reply-To: References: <0a9b01cbee5b$9324d3d0$b96e7b70$@sudbrink@verizon.net><4D94ADB5.4080208@gmail.com> <4D94AF01.2070809@jetnet.ab.ca><005101cbefcd$82d6f210$8884d630$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: In article , "Terry Stewart" writes: > > Famous works of art are worth millions of dollars because someone is > > willing to pay millions of dollars for them at auction. Its not the > > consensus of the dealers or critics that sets the price. > > Just a general comment on "worth". There are two types here. There is the > worth or value of something to the individual. Then there is the market > worth or value, which is the price others are prepared to pay for it. The > two often match up but not necessarily so, especially if the value to the > individual is due to deeply personal reasons (taste, nostalgia, etc.) Agreed. I watch OSI Challenger stuff sell on ebay all the time. Its always selling for more than my nostalgia is worth to me. I drooled over the ads for Challenger stuff in BYTE maagazine before I had my first computer. So there's nostalgia value for me in acquiring one, but its not the focus of my vintage computing efforts. Clearly for other people, their perceived value is higher than mine. There are lots of people seeking OSI Challenger gear on ebay. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From shumaker at att.net Thu Mar 31 15:01:49 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 13:01:49 -0700 Subject: 1964 computer/controller unit in OH In-Reply-To: <4D94D74B.2070706@jwsss.com> References: <0a9b01cbee5b$9324d3d0$b96e7b70$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <4D94ADB5.4080208@gmail.com> <4D94AF01.2070809@jetnet.ab.ca> <4D94C44E.9060500@att.net> <4D94D74B.2070706@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4D94DDAD.9090805@att.net> It's on CraigsList. http://cleveland.craigslist.org/sys/2289527889.html there are pics. he's asking $100 enjoy steve On 3/31/2011 12:34 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: > On 3/31/2011 11:13 AM, steve shumaker wrote: >> Bell Labs in 1964 > I did not find any item at your number on epay. > > I did find this interesting Bell Labs item 150491321756 > > Can you verify if the auction for the drilling machine is still there, > or see if you dropped a digit in posting it? I'm getting nothing, and > am interested in looking at it a least. > jim > From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Mar 31 14:58:03 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 12:58:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: old US Telephone hybrid ('Network' block) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Mar 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On Wed, 30 Mar 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>> like disks with metal coating on the surfaces), the anti-sidetone >>> transformer ('induction coil'. call it what you like :-)), some >> >> Tony, what function does an "anti-sidetone" transformer perform? Is it a >> filter of some kind? > > In telephony, 'sidetone' means the signal in your receiver due to thr > signal from your transmitter. If you are not careful, the sounds you hear > from your own speech are son strong that the user talks too quietly. On > the other hand, if there is no sidetone, the user is inclined to shout. > Makes sense. I haven't touched telephone stuff since ESS became common. *cough* :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 16:00:09 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 16:00:09 -0500 Subject: OSI C1P currently on ebay... In-Reply-To: <005101cbefcd$82d6f210$8884d630$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <0a9b01cbee5b$9324d3d0$b96e7b70$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <4D94ADB5.4080208@gmail.com> <4D94AF01.2070809@jetnet.ab.ca> <005101cbefcd$82d6f210$8884d630$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4D94EB59.7010504@gmail.com> Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Ah! There I would disagree. The case is not in half bad shape. If you > have Superboard you would like to mount, it could be just the thing for > you. That said, I think around $100 US is about the top of its value. I had to google (I'm not at all familiar with OSI stuff), but it seems that the keyboard is integral to the Superboard, right? So you'd basically be paying for a bit of bent metal, wooden (?) sides and a PSU - and it's a bit of bent metal which needs sanding down and repainting, at that (and I've no idea if those decals come off easily!). Considering it's $22 in shipping... anything seems like a lot to me :-) cheers Jules From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Mar 31 16:05:49 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 10:05:49 +1300 Subject: OSI C1P currently on ebay... References: <0a9b01cbee5b$9324d3d0$b96e7b70$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <4D94ADB5.4080208@gmail.com><4D94AF01.2070809@jetnet.ab.ca><005101cbefcd$82d6f210$8884d630$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <4D94EB59.7010504@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55F45FFB4D194884AFF7B4FE757BC101@massey.ac.nz> No, I don't think the sides are wooden. I have one of these models (http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/challenger1.htm) and the sides are metal. They are very vintage in apparence and function and I've glad I've got one. My oldest computer and the one that really started me collecting. Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 10:00 AM Subject: Re: OSI C1P currently on ebay... > Bill Sudbrink wrote: >> Ah! There I would disagree. The case is not in half bad shape. If you >> have Superboard you would like to mount, it could be just the thing for >> you. That said, I think around $100 US is about the top of its value. > > I had to google (I'm not at all familiar with OSI stuff), but it seems > that the keyboard is integral to the Superboard, right? So you'd basically > be paying for a bit of bent metal, wooden (?) sides and a PSU - and it's a > bit of bent metal which needs sanding down and repainting, at that (and > I've no idea if those decals come off easily!). > > Considering it's $22 in shipping... anything seems like a lot to me :-) > > cheers > > Jules > From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Thu Mar 31 16:19:12 2011 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 17:19:12 -0400 Subject: 1964 computer/controller unit in OH In-Reply-To: <4D94D74B.2070706@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <938661.35488.qm@smtp106.sbc.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I found it at: http://cleveland.craigslist.org/sys/2289527889.html The Other Bob On Thu, 31 Mar 2011 12:34:35 -0700, Jim Stephens wrote: >On 3/31/2011 11:13 AM, steve shumaker wrote: >> Bell Labs in 1964 >I did not find any item at your number on epay. >I did find this interesting Bell Labs item 150491321756 >Can you verify if the auction for the drilling machine is still there, >or see if you dropped a digit in posting it? I'm getting nothing, and >am interested in looking at it a least. >jim From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Mar 31 16:25:17 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 22:25:17 +0100 Subject: Smoke From PSU Socket In-Reply-To: References: <002601cbed93$59278a10$0b769e30$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Mar 28, 11 10:58:59 pm Message-ID: <01b401cbefea$2324a160$696de420$@ntlworld.com> Thanks to everyone for their help on this. A new Schaffner FN 9222 6/06 arrived this morning. I have just fitted it, without needing to modify anything, and it works just fine. Or at least I get a green LED, now I need to find out if the DELNI actually works or not :-) Thanks Rob From chrise at pobox.com Thu Mar 31 16:37:53 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 16:37:53 -0500 Subject: old US Telephone hybrid ('Network' block) In-Reply-To: References: <201103310151.p2V1pCD8097039@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <20110331213753.GA6930@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (03/31/2011 at 08:10PM +0100), Tony Duell wrote: > > I remember encountering it when I was kid, in a similar phone. > > Impossibly sticky. Probably full of PCBs or something. > > Yes, that's the stuff alright. It gets on everything, particularly > fingertips, which makes it very difficult to handle small parts. > > I could make a terrible joke using the other meaning of 'PCB' (the one > more commonly used in electronics) and say that the problem with this > network is the lack of PCBs. The other brands of American telephone I > have, and all the British ones, hae the components on a normal SRBP PCB > which is easy to repair. > > Anyway, the potting compound doesn't smell like the Polychlorinated > biphenyls that I am used to. Maybe it's Gutta-percha, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutta-percha It was popular with the telephone (cable) crowd at least ;-) -- Chris Elmquist From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 16:49:13 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 16:49:13 -0500 Subject: OSI C1P currently on ebay... In-Reply-To: <55F45FFB4D194884AFF7B4FE757BC101@massey.ac.nz> References: <0a9b01cbee5b$9324d3d0$b96e7b70$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <4D94ADB5.4080208@gmail.com><4D94AF01.2070809@jetnet.ab.ca><005101cbefcd$82d6f210$8884d630$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <4D94EB59.7010504@gmail.com> <55F45FFB4D194884AFF7B4FE757BC101@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: <4D94F6D9.7090105@gmail.com> Terry Stewart wrote: > No, I don't think the sides are wooden. I have one of these models > (http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/challenger1.htm) and the > sides are metal. Yes, I think you're probably right - the 4P looks like it might be wood on the sides (but possibly retaining the same top/front/back formed metal sheet), but the 1P seems to be metal (are the sides fastened to the bottom of the case, or is it one complete piece?) > They are very vintage in apparence and function and I've glad I've got > one. My oldest computer and the one that really started me collecting. One of the things I really like about machines of that era is that often the user built their own case - some of them can be rather elegant, but I've seen some real horrors, too :-) cheers Jules From evan at snarc.net Thu Mar 31 17:42:03 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 18:42:03 -0400 Subject: CHM's Revolution exhibit - the online version Message-ID: <4D95033B.9030403@snarc.net> CHM's "Revolution: The first 2000 years" is now online at http://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/. I know several cctalk'ers served as history advisers and/or loaned artifacts. For my part, I advised on the mobile/portable exhibit. (They said our individual names will be added during version 2 in a few weeks or months from now.) From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Mar 31 18:11:32 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 16:11:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: old US Telephone hybrid ('Network' block) In-Reply-To: <20110331213753.GA6930@n0jcf.net> References: <201103310151.p2V1pCD8097039@billY.EZWIND.NET> <20110331213753.GA6930@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Mar 2011, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Thursday (03/31/2011 at 08:10PM +0100), Tony Duell wrote: >>> I remember encountering it when I was kid, in a similar phone. >>> Impossibly sticky. Probably full of PCBs or something. >> >> Yes, that's the stuff alright. It gets on everything, particularly >> fingertips, which makes it very difficult to handle small parts. >> >> I could make a terrible joke using the other meaning of 'PCB' (the one >> more commonly used in electronics) and say that the problem with this >> network is the lack of PCBs. The other brands of American telephone I >> have, and all the British ones, hae the components on a normal SRBP PCB >> which is easy to repair. >> >> Anyway, the potting compound doesn't smell like the Polychlorinated >> biphenyls that I am used to. > > Maybe it's Gutta-percha, > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutta-percha > > It was popular with the telephone (cable) crowd at least ;-) I doubt it. Gutta percha is rock-hard at room temperature. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jws at jwsss.com Thu Mar 31 18:20:33 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 16:20:33 -0700 Subject: old US Telephone hybrid ('Network' block) In-Reply-To: References: <201103310151.p2V1pCD8097039@billY.EZWIND.NET> <20110331213753.GA6930@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4D950C41.1010705@jwsss.com> On 3/31/2011 4:11 PM, David Griffith wrote: > On Thu, 31 Mar 2011, Chris Elmquist wrote: > >> On Thursday (03/31/2011 at 08:10PM +0100), Tony Duell wrote: >>>> I remember encountering it when I was kid, in a similar phone. >>>> Impossibly sticky. Probably full of PCBs or something. >>> >>> Yes, that's the stuff alright. It gets on everything, particularly >>> fingertips, which makes it very difficult to handle small parts. >>> >>> I could make a terrible joke using the other meaning of 'PCB' (the one >>> more commonly used in electronics) and say that the problem with this >>> network is the lack of PCBs. The other brands of American telephone I >>> have, and all the British ones, hae the components on a normal SRBP PCB >>> which is easy to repair. >>> >>> Anyway, the potting compound doesn't smell like the Polychlorinated >>> biphenyls that I am used to. >> >> Maybe it's Gutta-percha, >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutta-percha >> >> It was popular with the telephone (cable) crowd at least ;-) > > I doubt it. Gutta percha is rock-hard at room temperature. > I recall what you all are talking about, and it reminds me of the silicon glue type stuff, minus the vinegar smell that the early versions of that we got had. Never thought about it other than the fact that both were soft at room temp, and had about the same diluted milky quality color. If the temperature is an issue above water boiling point, one could use hot oil to supply the temp, but it would still have a lot of heat, which could damage it. Jim From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 21:49:25 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 19:49:25 -0700 Subject: HP 82321B BASIC LANGUAGE PROCESSOR (VIPER) for $625 ? Message-ID: Things that make you go hmm? HP 82321B BASIC LANGUAGE PROCESSOR (VIPER) http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390281098409 Sold for $625 Are these really that hard to find? I think I paid somewhere around $30 or so each for my Viper and Hyper-Viper boards on eBay a while back. Maybe someone had one in a production environment that failed and absolutely needed one to get back online? With that sale price maybe a few more will show up on eBay (maybe I should list mine...) From bernd at kopriva.de Thu Mar 31 23:04:43 2011 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2011 06:04:43 +0200 Subject: HP 82321B BASIC LANGUAGE PROCESSOR (VIPER) for $625 ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D954EDB.20605@kopriva.de> those were my thoughts too :) ... Ciao Bernd > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Glen Slick > April 1, 2011 4:49 AM > > > Things that make you go hmm? > > HP 82321B BASIC LANGUAGE PROCESSOR (VIPER) > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390281098409 > Sold for $625 > > Are these really that hard to find? I think I paid somewhere around > $30 or so each for my Viper and Hyper-Viper boards on eBay a while > back. > > Maybe someone had one in a production environment that failed and > absolutely needed one to get back online? > > With that sale price maybe a few more will show up on eBay (maybe I > should list mine...) > > > From nick.allen at comcast.net Thu Mar 31 21:24:15 2011 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 21:24:15 -0500 Subject: Wanted: Sinclair MK-14, Micral R2E, Scelbi 8H, Datapoint 2200, Mark 8 Mini, Kenbak and/or PDP Straight 8 Message-ID: <4D95374F.7090209@comcast.net> If you have any of these please email me, I am a serious collector and willing to make an offer worth your while. Nick