From ceby2 at csc.com Fri Jul 1 04:26:36 2011 From: ceby2 at csc.com (Colin Eby) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 10:26:36 +0100 Subject: Seeking surplus IBM bus / tag cables and terminators? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'll second that plea. I have a full 9221 mainframe (2 IO cages and 5 DASD) but NO cables. Sigh. Haven't found any here in England so far. So if there are stacks of them eating up space under your raised floor, or in your garage, please consider me too! Thanks, Colin Eby From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 09:44:29 2011 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 10:44:29 -0400 Subject: Free 21" fixed-sync monitor in London In-Reply-To: References: <4E0C7BE1.17278.10F11BC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 8:57 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > I know - I wondered at that. I got it with a vintage Mac. Can't get a > picture out of it with a PC, even at an offically-supported res. Does it work with the Mac? It could be that it's just plain broken... Mike From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Jul 1 10:07:15 2011 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 11:07:15 -0400 Subject: Seeking surplus IBM bus / tag cables and terminators? In-Reply-To: <4E0CC580.3010304@bitsavers.org> References: <4E0CC580.3010304@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <201107011107.15984.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 30 June 2011, Al Kossow wrote: > On 6/30/11 4:01 AM, Nigel Williams wrote: > > does anyone have any > > surplus bus/tag cables and terminators (for both) which they can > > offer please? > > The Computer History Museum is looking for a short set as well. We > ended up using a chunk of 1401 tape cable in the exhibit because we > couldn't find a set. I can probably come up with some extras, but i'm over in Indiana, and they're not exactly light to ship. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 10:20:27 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 16:20:27 +0100 Subject: Free 21" fixed-sync monitor in London In-Reply-To: References: <4E0C7BE1.17278.10F11BC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 1 July 2011 15:44, Michael Kerpan wrote: > On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 8:57 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > >> I know - I wondered at that. I got it with a vintage Mac. Can't get a >> picture out of it with a PC, even at an offically-supported res. > > Does it work with the Mac? It could be that it's just plain broken... I didn't have a running one with the right connector to test it, sadly. Came with a DA-15 to 13W3 cable & all my running Macs are SVGA or DVI. It /does/ display a legible "frequency out of range" message sometimes, though. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Fri Jul 1 10:24:13 2011 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 10:24:13 -0500 Subject: Seeking old IBM mainframe terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E05B47319@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> I'd like to get an old IBM mainframe terminal...so that I can also get an appropriate model 3174 control unit and hook the terminal up to my Hercules-emulated mainframe. Any suggestions on where to find an inexpensive mainframe terminal these days? Thank! -Bob bbrown at harpercollege.edu ####? #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ##? ##? ## Supervisor of Operations Palatine IL USA????????? ####? #### Saved by grace -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Colin Eby Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 4:27 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Seeking surplus IBM bus / tag cables and terminators? I'll second that plea. I have a full 9221 mainframe (2 IO cages and 5 DASD) but NO cables. Sigh. Haven't found any here in England so far. So if there are stacks of them eating up space under your raised floor, or in your garage, please consider me too! Thanks, Colin Eby From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 11:19:00 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 12:19:00 -0400 Subject: Seeking surplus IBM bus / tag cables and terminators? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I'll second that plea. ?I have a full 9221 mainframe (2 IO cages and 5 > DASD) but NO cables. Sigh. Haven't found any here in England so far. ?So if > there are stacks of them eating up space under your raised floor, or in > your garage, please consider me too! Colo spaces that date back to the mainframe days are great places to find Bus and Tag cables. The hard part is convincing the manager to let you dig them out. -- Will From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jul 1 11:25:57 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 09:25:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Seeking surplus IBM bus / tag cables and terminators? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Jul 2011, William Donzelli wrote: >> I'll second that plea. ?I have a full 9221 mainframe (2 IO cages and 5 >> DASD) but NO cables. Sigh. Haven't found any here in England so far. ?So if >> there are stacks of them eating up space under your raised floor, or in >> your garage, please consider me too! > > Colo spaces that date back to the mainframe days are great places to > find Bus and Tag cables. The hard part is convincing the manager to > let you dig them out. > What IS a "Bus and Tag" cable and what about them makes them difficult to make? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jul 1 11:31:50 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2011 12:31:50 -0400 Subject: Seeking surplus IBM bus / tag cables and terminators? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E0DF676.4@neurotica.com> On 7/1/11 12:25 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>> I'll second that plea. I have a full 9221 mainframe (2 IO cages and 5 >>> DASD) but NO cables. Sigh. Haven't found any here in England so far. >>> So if >>> there are stacks of them eating up space under your raised floor, or in >>> your garage, please consider me too! >> >> Colo spaces that date back to the mainframe days are great places to >> find Bus and Tag cables. The hard part is convincing the manager to >> let you dig them out. >> > What IS a "Bus and Tag" cable and what about them makes them difficult > to make? B&T is the "parallel channel" interface found on most IBM mainframes. There are two cables, "bus" which carries data, and "tag" which carries protocol and handshaking information. B&T, if memory serves, is good for about 4.5Mbps. The cables are just a pain. This technology dates back to the 1960s, and it uses big heavy cables about 1" in diameter, and big huge bizarre connectors. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jul 1 11:40:29 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 09:40:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Seeking surplus IBM bus / tag cables and terminators? In-Reply-To: <4E0DF676.4@neurotica.com> References: <4E0DF676.4@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Jul 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 7/1/11 12:25 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>>> I'll second that plea. I have a full 9221 mainframe (2 IO cages and 5 >>>> DASD) but NO cables. Sigh. Haven't found any here in England so far. >>>> So if >>>> there are stacks of them eating up space under your raised floor, or in >>>> your garage, please consider me too! >>> >>> Colo spaces that date back to the mainframe days are great places to >>> find Bus and Tag cables. The hard part is convincing the manager to >>> let you dig them out. >>> >> What IS a "Bus and Tag" cable and what about them makes them difficult >> to make? > > B&T is the "parallel channel" interface found on most IBM mainframes. > There are two cables, "bus" which carries data, and "tag" which carries > protocol and handshaking information. B&T, if memory serves, is good for > about 4.5Mbps. > > The cables are just a pain. This technology dates back to the 1960s, and > it uses big heavy cables about 1" in diameter, and big huge bizarre > connectors. > Thanks for the info Dave. I wonder why they went that route... Seems kinda kludgy. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jul 1 11:46:08 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2011 12:46:08 -0400 Subject: Seeking surplus IBM bus / tag cables and terminators? In-Reply-To: References: <4E0DF676.4@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E0DF9D0.3000304@neurotica.com> On 7/1/11 12:40 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>> What IS a "Bus and Tag" cable and what about them makes them difficult >>> to make? >> >> B&T is the "parallel channel" interface found on most IBM mainframes. >> There are two cables, "bus" which carries data, and "tag" which >> carries protocol and handshaking information. B&T, if memory serves, >> is good for about 4.5Mbps. >> >> The cables are just a pain. This technology dates back to the 1960s, >> and it uses big heavy cables about 1" in diameter, and big huge >> bizarre connectors. >> > Thanks for the info Dave. I wonder why they went that route... Seems > kinda kludgy. :) Well like I said, 1960s...not many established standards back then for this sort of stuff. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 1 11:50:31 2011 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2011 09:50:31 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4911 paper tape punch/reader In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E0DFAD7.9040901@sbcglobal.net> On 6/27/2011 8:42 AM, Richard wrote: > Has anyone ever seen either of these? They're introduced in the Tektronix > catalog for 1973, pg. 277. I cannot find pictures of either of these > peripherals in any catalog. The cassette drive appeared in only the > 1973 catalog and the tape punch/reader appeared for only three years. > > Prices: > > 4911 4912 > 1973 $2950 $1950 > 1974 $2950 > 1975 $3295 > > I've collated together all the graphics/terminal products from the > various Tektronix catalogs together into a single PDF file: > > > This includes the storage scope displays and related equipment, but > omits all the oscilloscope, test equipment and microprocessor development > system stuff. It does include the workstations, however. I scanned my 4911 paper tape system manual. It can be found here: www.tekmuseum.com/4911.pdf Bob From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 12:31:19 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 13:31:19 -0400 Subject: Seeking surplus IBM bus / tag cables and terminators? In-Reply-To: References: <4E0DF676.4@neurotica.com> Message-ID: >?I wonder why they went that route... Seems kinda > kludgy. :) That was the way back in the 1960s and 70s, when metal was cheap. Burroughs did the same, as did DEC. CDC was different, using fairly lightweight cables, but still with odd connectors. I never understood why IBM made the Bus and Tag connectors hermaphroditic and not keyed. I think all it did was create confusion. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 12:32:47 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 13:32:47 -0400 Subject: Q-bus chassis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Do they come with a PSU ? Yes. -- Will From mikelee at tdh.com Fri Jul 1 12:38:05 2011 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2011 12:38:05 -0500 Subject: Seeking surplus IBM bus / tag cables and terminators? In-Reply-To: References: <4E0DF676.4@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E0E05FD.1020304@tdh.com> On 7/1/2011 12:31 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > I never understood why IBM made the Bus and Tag connectors > hermaphroditic and not keyed. I think all it did was create confusion. Just the same reason they created Type 1 token ring cables and connectors I bet. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jul 1 12:53:25 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2011 13:53:25 -0400 Subject: Seeking old IBM mainframe terminal In-Reply-To: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E05B47319@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> References: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E05B47319@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: <4E0E0995.5040701@neurotica.com> On 7/1/11 11:24 AM, Bob Brown wrote: > I'd like to get an old IBM mainframe terminal...so that I can also get an appropriate model 3174 control unit and hook the terminal up to my > Hercules-emulated mainframe. > > Any suggestions on where to find an inexpensive mainframe terminal these days? Seconded, for the same reason. There were gazillions of them made, but they all seem to have disappeared. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jws at jwsss.com Fri Jul 1 12:58:40 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2011 10:58:40 -0700 Subject: Seeking surplus IBM bus / tag cables and terminators? In-Reply-To: References: <4E0DF676.4@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E0E0AD0.2050807@jwsss.com> IBM started out with typewriter repairmen who became unit record equipment repairment who became mainframe repairmen. Other thatn "grey away" and remembering which end of a 100' cable goes to which storage director when you get there the system is pretty simple and robust. They simply don't work when you swap them . YOu could get in trouble when you had a controller to unit use where there was a single cable, never saw what happ3ned if you took a 3803 tape controller to 3420 tape unit cable and ran it to a bus / tag connector, but hopefully not flames. as some guys around here who I have complained at about having to do a lot of manual operations as root (from instruction sheets) and not automating the stuff say "if you screw up you won't do it twice". Or if you do it twice you didn't learn to be more careful the first time. Jim On 7/1/2011 10:31 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I wonder why they went that route... Seems kinda >> kludgy. :) > That was the way back in the 1960s and 70s, when metal was cheap. > Burroughs did the same, as did DEC. CDC was different, using fairly > lightweight cables, but still with odd connectors. > > I never understood why IBM made the Bus and Tag connectors > hermaphroditic and not keyed. I think all it did was create confusion. > > -- > Will > > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 1 13:09:13 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2011 11:09:13 -0700 Subject: Seeking surplus IBM bus / tag cables and terminators? In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4E0DAAD9.13968.57AFEF@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jul 2011 at 13:31, William Donzelli wrote: > CDC was different, using fairly lightweight cables, but still with odd > connectors. Perhaps you're talking about 3000-series peripherals. IIRC, the 6000- series channels used bundles of coax that were terminated in taper pins. No connectors per se. The 3000-series cables were twisted- pair with real connectors. 6000-series hardware used 3000-series unit-record peripherals via a 6681/84 channel converter. I could be remembering wrongly. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jul 1 14:03:39 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 12:03:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Seeking old IBM mainframe terminal In-Reply-To: <4E0E0995.5040701@neurotica.com> References: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E05B47319@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <4E0E0995.5040701@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Jul 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 7/1/11 11:24 AM, Bob Brown wrote: >> I'd like to get an old IBM mainframe terminal...so that I can also get an >> appropriate model 3174 control unit and hook the terminal up to my >> Hercules-emulated mainframe. >> >> Any suggestions on where to find an inexpensive mainframe terminal these >> days? > > Seconded, for the same reason. There were gazillions of them made, but > they all seem to have disappeared. > Ahh, I see the Nazgul have reclaimed their minions.... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From doc at vaxen.net Fri Jul 1 14:11:31 2011 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2011 14:11:31 -0500 Subject: Free 21" fixed-sync monitor in London In-Reply-To: References: <4E0C7BE1.17278.10F11BC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E0E1BE3.1090406@vaxen.net> On 6/30/11 7:57 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 30 June 2011 21:36, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 30 Jun 2011 at 18:35, Liam Proven wrote: >> >>> Cornerstone 21/80 >>> One of these: >>> http://www.monitorworld.com/Monitors/cornerstone/color2180.html >> >> The specs as published seem to indicate that this is a multisync >> unit, not fixed-sync: >> >> H Freq/ V Freq: 31-106 Khz / 50-150 Hz >> >> I'm a little puzzled as to why they call it a fixed-frequency >> monitor. Perhaps because it has a 13W3 connector? > > I know - I wondered at that. I got it with a vintage Mac. Can't get a > picture out of it with a PC, even at an offically-supported res. > > Odd... I think I have a PCI video card for that thing. I may be misremembering, but I think most of the Cornerstone displays were high-resolution grayscale, with high-resolution grayscale gfx adapters. I quit believing monitorworld.com's specs a long, long time ago. They're usually right, but often not. Doc From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 14:15:14 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 15:15:14 -0400 Subject: Seeking old IBM mainframe terminal In-Reply-To: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E05B47319@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> References: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E05B47319@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: > I'd like to get an old IBM mainframe terminal...so that I can also get an appropriate model 3174 control unit and hook the terminal up to my > Hercules-emulated mainframe. > > Any suggestions on where to find an inexpensive mainframe terminal these days? Generally $100 will get one from a reseller. Most of these guys have stacks of late model IBM 3270 family terminals, and these days there is just not a whole lot of call for them. Otherwise, put out feelers with the mainframers you know. There are still quite a lot of terminals out there, disused in data centers. Real first generation 3277s are getting damn scarce. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 14:17:08 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 15:17:08 -0400 Subject: Free 21" fixed-sync monitor in London In-Reply-To: <4E0E1BE3.1090406@vaxen.net> References: <4E0C7BE1.17278.10F11BC@cclist.sydex.com> <4E0E1BE3.1090406@vaxen.net> Message-ID: > ?I think I have a PCI video card for that thing. ?I may be misremembering, > but I think most of the Cornerstone displays were high-resolution grayscale, > with high-resolution grayscale gfx adapters. I used one of those many years ago - probably the best monochrome tube I have ever seen. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 14:18:35 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 15:18:35 -0400 Subject: Seeking surplus IBM bus / tag cables and terminators? In-Reply-To: <4E0DAAD9.13968.57AFEF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E0DAAD9.13968.57AFEF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Perhaps you're talking about 3000-series peripherals. ?IIRC, the 6000- > series channels used bundles of coax that were terminated in taper > pins. ?No connectors per se. ?The 3000-series cables were twisted- > pair with real connectors. ?6000-series hardware used 3000-series > unit-record peripherals via a 6681/84 channel converter. > > I could be remembering wrongly. I am thinking about the Cyber 170 channel cables. -- Will From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 1 14:44:59 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2011 12:44:59 -0700 Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B In-Reply-To: <4DDEAAD8.3020909@verizon.net> References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com><20110524232918.d1255d53.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de><4DDD2B86.40108@jwsss.com> <4DDEAAD8.3020909@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4E0E23BB.3070909@bitsavers.org> More docs on the D17 are now available under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/autonetics/d17 The big thing still missing are the module schematics. What is there is almost everything to come out of the Minuteman Computer Users Group From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 1 15:00:02 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 21:00:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: Usefullness of a CX-11 controller In-Reply-To: <4E0CE1E0.5070300@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jun 30, 11 09:51:44 pm Message-ID: > > Mine came from Cambridge University at about the same time, and AFAIK > > they werre used for much the same purpose -- that is using PDP11s as > > frontends to an IBM mainfram. The PDP11s were stufferd iwtrh comms cards > > -- DMC11s, DMR11s, DUP11s, even the odd DJ11 (16 channel asynchronous > > mux). Others wanted the 11/34 CPUs, but the (interesting to me) comms > > stuff all came home with me ;-) > > Coincidence or not I don't know, but the two at Leeds were also on > 11/34s, stuffed with serial I/O, mostly Emulex CS111s, and booting off a I think mine started life on 11/45s (maybe the 11/45 that I now own). There was a downgrade to 11/34s about 20 years ago, probably to save power > well-worn RX02. I got one of the 11/34s and some serial cards, plus a I am pretty sure the Cambridge University machines ran from RK05s, or 3rd party equivalents. > few bits and pieces. Is the CS11 the onw where there's a Unibus board full of 2900 bit slice chips liked to distribution panels which contain the UARTs are well as the line driever/receiver ICs? I have one of those in my 11/44. > Leeds also had a couple of brown boxes which were essentially 11/73 > machines (each in a 3U-high third-party cabinet) with a rather odd quad > QBus ethernet card made by Camtec (as in "Camtec PAD" or "JNT PAD"), As an aside, I have JNT-PAD and its unser manual soewhere. Odd device, it appears you can save the configuration on an audio cassette recorder... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 1 15:07:14 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 21:07:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Free 21" fixed-sync monitor in London In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Jul 1, 11 01:57:16 am Message-ID: > I know - I wondered at that. I got it with a vintage Mac. Can't get a > picture out of it with a PC, even at an offically-supported res. I assume you cvan get a picture on it using the Mac (in other words, there's no some fault in the monitor). It's not someting silly like the Mac provides sync-on-green and the PC odesn/t or the Mac provided composite sync and the PC doesn't, or soemthing like that? When you say 'no picture', is it going out of standby? Does it think it's getting syncs? I once had a realyl evil 'fault' with a monitor. It was a VGA thing and it had a DE15 socket on thge abck. With it was a cable with a DE15 plug on each end. I connecterd it up, and got nothing on the scrreen. Me being me, I unplugged the cable from the computer and found I had syncs on the apporprate pins of the DE15 socket. I connected the cable at the computer end only and found I didn't have syncs at the monitor end. Buzzing out the cable showed ti was not straight-through wired. And tht it wasn't symmetircal. It mattered which end went to the computer and which to the moonitor. After swapping it round I got a good disply. The _only_ differfence between the moulded DE15 plugs on the cable was the colour of the isulator between the pins. The hoods were the same greay colour as the rest of the cable. There were no identifiaction marks or labels either. ARGH! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 1 15:09:23 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 21:09:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: I'm in a movie! In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Jun 30, 11 07:38:09 pm Message-ID: > Nothing is worth installing QuickTime to watch, sorry. :) Not even a video showing how to restore every aspect of your favourite classic computer? For me, unless it comes onf Video2000 tapes I am not going to try to watch it :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 1 15:13:58 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 21:13:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Seeking surplus IBM bus / tag cables and terminators? In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jul 1, 11 12:19:00 pm Message-ID: > > Colo spaces that date back to the mainframe days are great places to > find Bus and Tag cables. The hard part is convincing the manager to > let you dig them out. One time when I was doing a rescue, I was told I could take everything in the racks, but not to try to pull out the ribbon cables that went under the raised floor. Appareltny doing so was likely to raise clounds of dust that would trigger the fire detectors. Fortunately, they were just plain IDC ribbon cables so I wasn;t _too_ worried, Had they been anything rare, I might have tried to find a way to do it. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 1 15:43:46 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2011 13:43:46 -0700 Subject: Seeking surplus IBM bus / tag cables and terminators? In-Reply-To: References: , <4E0DAAD9.13968.57AFEF@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4E0DCF12.4514.E52BC9@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jul 2011 at 15:18, William Donzelli wrote: > I am thinking about the Cyber 170 channel cables. After my time, sorry. --Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Jul 1 16:19:17 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2011 22:19:17 +0100 Subject: Usefullness of a CX-11 controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E0E39D5.7040506@dunnington.plus.com> On 01/07/2011 21:00, Tony Duell wrote: > Is the CS11 the onw where there's a Unibus board full of 2900 bit slice > chips liked to distribution panels which contain the UARTs are well as > the line driever/receiver ICs? I have one of those in my 11/44. No, the UARTs are on the main board, but IIRC the drivers are on the panels. >> Leeds also had a couple of brown boxes which were essentially 11/73 >> machines (each in a 3U-high third-party cabinet) with a rather odd quad >> QBus ethernet card made by Camtec (as in "Camtec PAD" or "JNT PAD"), > > As an aside, I have JNT-PAD and its unser manual soewhere. Odd device, > it appears you can save the configuration on an audio cassette recorder... I have one too. Before I started in my present job, UoY had quite a lot of thick yellow etherhose around the place[1], and Camtec pads stuck in odd corners with various terminals hanging off them. There weren't really any proper wiring centres in those days, not in the way we now have rooms with a couple of racks, space to walk round them, etc. A couple of years ago I got a call from the electricians. "We need to turn off the power in electrical plant room for testing and there's one of your network things there with flashing lights. Is it OK to turn off?" I said we had no network switches there. They described where was, but it made no sense; our wiring centre for that building was at the opposite side of the building, it was it's own dedicated room, and definitely not in an electrical plant room. So eventually they led me to to this plant room to look, and there was this dusty long-forgotten Camtec PAD, lights still flashing, connected to a length of yellow coax that could not possibly have been carrying packets for over ten years, patiently listening for traffic on serial lines that led to about a dozen rooms. Yes, it still works. 1][ Actually it still does, though no longer carrying traffic. It's just to too difficult to try to pull it back out again. Some of it is probably all that's holding up the covered walkways. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jul 1 17:33:49 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 15:33:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I'm in a movie! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Jul 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> Nothing is worth installing QuickTime to watch, sorry. :) > > Not even a video showing how to restore every aspect of your favourite > classic computer? > > For me, unless it comes onf Video2000 tapes I am not going to try to > watch it :-) > That came out a lot snarkier than I intended - my apologies. I posit that the person's video IS worth watching, just not via QuickTime. :D g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jul 1 21:42:22 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2011 19:42:22 -0700 Subject: Seeking surplus IBM bus / tag cables and terminators? In-Reply-To: <4E0DF9D0.3000304@neurotica.com> References: <4E0DF676.4@neurotica.com> <4E0DF9D0.3000304@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E0E858E.60905@brouhaha.com> Dave wrote about IBM bus/tag cables: > The cables are just a pain. This technology dates back to the 1960s, > and it uses big heavy cables about 1" in diameter, and big huge > bizarre connectors. Gene wrote: > Thanks for the info Dave. I wonder why they went that route... Seems > kinda kludgy. :) So you know of some other interface they could have used in 1963 that could transfer over megabyte per second? I suppose everything about 1960s computers might seem "kinda kludgy" now, but IMNSHO IBM did a phenomenally good job of developing the channel OEMI standard. It was popular for thirty years, so they clearly must have done something right. Eric From terry at webweavers.co.nz Fri Jul 1 23:55:44 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2011 16:55:44 +1200 Subject: Sorcerer BASIC ROM-PAC ROM replacements References: <4DFFDC1D.60506@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <9BF7E91077314C3099E459906470E0E9@massey.ac.nz> Hi, I've managed to sucessfully fix the Sorcerer ROM-PAC and have written it up in two parts http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-06-25-sorcerer-rom-pac-fix-part-1.htm http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-06-25-sorcerer-rom-pac-fix-part-2.htm Many thanks to everyone who assisted with this. Terry Stewart (Tez) http://www.classic-computers.org.nz ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Turnbull" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 11:47 AM Subject: Re: Sorcerer BASIC ROM-PAC ROM replacements > On 20/06/2011 22:05, Terry Stewart wrote: > >> Thanks Tony. Pete, some of the guys of the Vintage computer Forum, have >> given me good advice of what to do here so I should be ok. Pete in >> particular as he's successfully replaced a ROM with an EPROM in his >> Sorcerer BASIC ROM-PAC, so he's had direct experience (and even has >> pictures of the mod). > > More than once, actually :-) It's a not-uncommon fault, and I've fixed a > few Sorcerers. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Sat Jul 2 00:50:52 2011 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 21:50:52 -0800 Subject: Free 21" fixed-sync monitor in London In-Reply-To: References: <4e0c7be1.17278.10f11bc@cclist.sydex.com> <4e0e1be3.1090406@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <65014CCFF12.0000004Cn0body.h0me@inbox.com> I'll second that. We used to use 'em in hi-res document scanning and imaging solutions. I remember thinking that I'd prefer the uber-high res mono displays to lesser-res color any day of the week. The first machine I ever saw running x-windows was also high-res mono; it had such a clean, crisp appearance-- I was hooked. > -----Original Message----- > From: wdonzelli at gmail.com > Sent: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 15:17:08 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Free 21" fixed-sync monitor in London > >> ?I think I have a PCI video card for that thing. ?I may be >> misremembering, >> but I think most of the Cornerstone displays were high-resolution >> grayscale, >> with high-resolution grayscale gfx adapters. > > I used one of those many years ago - probably the best monochrome tube > I have ever seen. > > -- > Will ____________________________________________________________ Send any screenshot to your friends in seconds... Works in all emails, instant messengers, blogs, forums and social networks. TRY IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if2 for FREE From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Jul 2 05:02:22 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2011 11:02:22 +0100 Subject: Sorcerer BASIC ROM-PAC ROM replacements In-Reply-To: <9BF7E91077314C3099E459906470E0E9@massey.ac.nz> References: <4DFFDC1D.60506@dunnington.plus.com> <9BF7E91077314C3099E459906470E0E9@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: <4E0EECAE.7020408@dunnington.plus.com> On 02/07/2011 05:55, terry stewart wrote: > I've managed to sucessfully fix the Sorcerer ROM-PAC and have written it > up in two parts > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-06-25-sorcerer-rom-pac-fix-part-1.htm > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-06-25-sorcerer-rom-pac-fix-part-2.htm Well done! Have you tried erasing and reprogramming the 27C16s that didn't quite work before? I wonder if one or both has a stuck bit, or just wasn't properly erased. Or maybe they require a slightly different programming voltage to what you used. Some EPROMs need 25V or 21V, but newer types often need 13V or 12V. And newer types typically want a shorter programming pulse, or a series of short pulses. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Jul 2 06:40:04 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2011 23:40:04 +1200 Subject: burning 27C16s (was Re: Sorcerer BASIC ROM-PAC ROM replacements) References: <4DFFDC1D.60506@dunnington.plus.com><9BF7E91077314C3099E459906470E0E9@massey.ac.nz> <4E0EECAE.7020408@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: > Well done! Thanks Pete, > Have you tried erasing and reprogramming the 27C16s that didn't quite work > before? I wonder if one or both has a stuck bit, or just wasn't properly > erased. Or maybe they require a slightly different programming voltage to > what you used. Some EPROMs need 25V or 21V, but newer types often need > 13V or 12V. And newer types typically want a shorter programming pulse, > or a series of short pulses. Yes, I've tried a number of them. Unforunately I've only got one type of 27C16, which is NMC27c16Q - 45s (and 35s). Datasheets for the these say 25V Vpp. They also say tPW should be about 50. However the Willem's default for 27C16 is 140 us??. The Willem calls the parameter tWP which I assume is the same thing. Anyway I dropped it down to 50 but it still didn't work. The default setting for tWC=20 us Using the default settings for a straight 2716 (tWP= 25 and tWC=50) didn't work either. Terry From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 2 12:02:16 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2011 18:02:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: Usefullness of a CX-11 controller In-Reply-To: <4E0E39D5.7040506@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jul 1, 11 10:19:17 pm Message-ID: > > On 01/07/2011 21:00, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Is the CS11 the onw where there's a Unibus board full of 2900 bit slice > > chips liked to distribution panels which contain the UARTs are well as > > the line driever/receiver ICs? I have one of those in my 11/44. > > No, the UARTs are on the main board, but IIRC the drivers are on the panels. There is a serial multipexer for the Unibus -- and I think it's an Emulex product where the (hex height) Unibus board contains a fair amount of bit-slice stuff. This links by a ribbon cable to a distrbution unit (3U high, and quite challow). You cna daisy-chain several of these, you put a terminator board in the 'out' connector of the last one. The distrubtion units have a PSU bolted on the back, and a PCB inside containign the UART chips. There are 2 distritution panels that fit side-by-side into the distribution unit and connect to pins on the UART pCB. Thiese distribution panels contain the drivers and connector. All mine are RS232 ones, I assume there were others, perhaps current loop or RS422. Each disptribution panel has 8 ports IIRC, so each distribution unit gicves you 16 serial lines. Anyone got any ideas what I am thinking of? > > As an aside, I have JNT-PAD and its unser manual soewhere. Odd device, > > it appears you can save the configuration on an audio cassette recorder... > > I have one too. Before I started in my present job, UoY had quite a lot > of thick yellow etherhose around the place[1], and Camtec pads stuck in If it was on an ethernet, doens't that make it an 'ISO Ether PAD'? I've seen those, I neve got one though. The JNT PAD I have uses X25 to talk to the host. I think it's 9600 baud on an RS232 connecotr. I am pretty sure Cambridge University used to use those Gandalf LDS120 line drivers to send the signals between buildings. -tony From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jul 3 16:19:59 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2011 22:19:59 +0100 Subject: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <001201cc3560$360372f0$a20a58d0$@ntlworld.com> References: <00a401cc3500$ff07dfc0$fd179f40$@ntlworld.com> <2483F1EA20DD498F9F225C1507CCC610@ANTONIOPC> <00a601cc3505$f8d66310$ea832930$@ntlworld.com> <00aa01cc350e$79b01960$6d104c20$@ntlworld.com> <001201cc3560$360372f0$a20a58d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <00b401cc39c6$f8c7e720$ea57b560$@ntlworld.com> Dave, I finally finished downloading all the images. Thanks! Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > Sent: 28 June 2011 07:54 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: DEC RD53 Manual > > Many thanks, I am assembling the pictures into a PDF. > > Regards > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Caroline > > Sent: 28 June 2011 07:11 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: DEC RD53 Manual > > > > I have done the whole manual now but there are a few repeats where I > > thought I had an error like shake > > > > I dont like how the centre area tends to burn out and make it > > difficult to > read, > > I need a better method > > > > There are pics near the end showing the method of plate clamped to > > book shelf and camera mount clamped to plate its at about 5 ft 6" > > above the > floor > > > > Dave Caroline From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 1 14:30:28 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 12:30:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Free 21" fixed-sync monitor in London In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1309548628.45122.YahooMailClassic@web65516.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I would think it has to be broken. If the info is correct, Hitachi specified scanning would start at 31 khz (vga) not 35 khz (mac). Mac and pc video is different in that one uses negative going sync (and video?) pulsed, the other positive. Mac video is industry standard it would seem, as so many of these fixed freqs readily work w/macs (found one once that wouldn't, a Sony GDM-can't remember, 48khz. I chalked it up to sync pulse width or something, but don't really know. Maybe it was a weirdo and expected opposite polarities). IBM ps/2 may have been intentionally less compatible? Of course there were 3rd party cards that presumably would plug right up to these monitors (and I still have 2 IBM/Sony GDM-1932s or something, trinitron. I think they may have been intended for AIX equipment, cad/cam for sure though). --- On Fri, 7/1/11, Michael Kerpan wrote: > Does it work with the Mac? It could be that it's just plain > broken... > > Mike > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 1 14:35:31 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 12:35:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Free 21" fixed-sync monitor in London In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1309548931.99110.YahooMailClassic@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 7/1/11, William Donzelli wrote: > > ?I think I have a PCI video > card for that thing. You can alter the sync polarities and whatnot on many cards depending on when it was made. In the mid-late 90s manufacturers were adding the ability. There are also adapters that can be built. Or you can fiddle w/the firmware or graphics chip. ?I may be misremembering, > > but I think most of the Cornerstone displays were > high-resolution grayscale, > > with high-resolution grayscale gfx adapters. > > I used one of those many years ago - probably the best > monochrome tube > I have ever seen. I can't remember what I had, but Cornerstone sort of rings a bell. My unit even had considerable screen burn, but was still sharp as a tack. Some company in the back of Computer Shopper was blowing out these 21" b & w monitors for under 100$ about 10 years ago. I'm still kicking myself for not getting 1 (at least). From nick.allen at comcast.net Fri Jul 1 21:49:29 2011 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2011 21:49:29 -0500 Subject: WANTED: Orange Switch Paddle for PDP 8 - Qty 1 Message-ID: <4E0E8739.7000407@comcast.net> Anyone have an Orange Switch Paddle for PDP 8 they are willing to sell? Nick From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Sat Jul 2 08:18:59 2011 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2011 23:18:59 +1000 Subject: Sorcerer BASIC ROM-PAC ROM replacements In-Reply-To: <9BF7E91077314C3099E459906470E0E9@massey.ac.nz> References: <4DFFDC1D.60506@dunnington.plus.com> <9BF7E91077314C3099E459906470E0E9@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: Terry, A great write up and an interesting read. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From nick.allen at comcast.net Sat Jul 2 15:54:16 2011 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2011 15:54:16 -0500 Subject: Titan IV Missile Test Equipment Message-ID: <4E0F8578.7040901@comcast.net> Hi everyone, could use some help identifying some equipment if you are up to it. I know it is some sort of test equipment for the Titan IV Missile, just not sure what it was used for, and cannot find any literature (maybe you can help). Below is a link to the photos of the Titan IV Missile Test equipment, notice it comes with paper tape ribbon (I assume some code is on it). Also notice the "Air Pressure Equalizer" knob, this lets air in/our of the case (it is sealed with a gasket). Do you know why it would have an "Air Pressure Equalizer" knob? I assume this means it is used in different air pressures, would this therefore be used in space as opposed to on the ground in your opinion? Photos Link: https://picasaweb.google.com/NeXTprototype/TitanIVMissile3?authkey=Gv1sRgCLLL4Je3vNvuhAE#5624859703529242626 From alexeyt at freeshell.org Sun Jul 3 17:26:25 2011 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2011 22:26:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Titan IV Missile Test Equipment In-Reply-To: <4E0F8578.7040901@comcast.net> References: <4E0F8578.7040901@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Jul 2011, Nick Allen wrote: > Below is a link to the photos of the Titan IV Missile Test equipment, notice > it comes with paper tape ribbon (I assume some code is on it). Also notice > the "Air Pressure Equalizer" knob, this lets air in/our of the case (it is > sealed with a gasket). Do you know why it would have an "Air Pressure > Equalizer" knob? I assume this means it is used in different air pressures, > would this therefore be used in space as opposed to on the ground in your > opinion? Not in space, but on a plane. The air pressure in an aircraft cabin at altitude is significantly less than 1atm, so most good air-tight equipment cases will have one of these knobs. The military even has air-insulated boots for use in the arctic that have a valve on them so they don't crush your feet when you're flying. Alexey From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 3 18:19:59 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2011 16:19:59 -0700 Subject: Free 21" fixed-sync monitor in London In-Reply-To: <1309548931.99110.YahooMailClassic@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: , <1309548931.99110.YahooMailClassic@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E1096AF.27044.1890B14@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jul 2011 at 12:35, Chris M wrote: > --- On Fri, 7/1/11, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > ?I think I have a PCI video > > card for that thing. > > You can alter the sync polarities and whatnot on many cards depending > on when it was made. In the mid-late 90s manufacturers were adding > the ability. There are also adapters that can be built. Or you can > fiddle w/the firmware or graphics chip. At least one firm, Mirage, for years made a regular business of supporting fixed-frequency monitors on PC gear. Their regular web site looks as if it's rotting away, but archive.org has plenty of old pages. I used their VGA cards (both ISA and PCI) with HP (Sony) workstation nonitors, and earlier with Daisy monitors. They worked very well, and compared to the quality and prices of multisync PC monitors, were a bargain. Mostly, cards were commodity with different BIOS code. I think I may still have one based on a Tseng 6000 PCI card. http://www.mirage-mmc.com/ --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jul 3 19:44:58 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2011 20:44:58 -0400 Subject: Titan IV Missile Test Equipment In-Reply-To: References: <4E0F8578.7040901@comcast.net> Message-ID: > Not in space, but on a plane. The air pressure in an aircraft cabin at > altitude is significantly less than 1atm, so most good air-tight equipment > cases will have one of these knobs. The military even has air-insulated > boots for use in the arctic that have a valve on them so they don't crush > your feet when you're flying. Not only that, but with such a good seal, if the cases are opened then closed at low pressure (high altitude), then shipped to sea level, they will not open without pressure equalization. -- Will From jws at jwsss.com Sun Jul 3 20:50:19 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2011 18:50:19 -0700 Subject: Titan IV Missile Test Equipment In-Reply-To: <4E0F8578.7040901@comcast.net> References: <4E0F8578.7040901@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4E111C5B.1080907@jwsss.com> From the switches and displays, it would appear to be for an INAV system for either the missile itself, or perhaps for some payload system. Looks like it can be used to bring it up and also test the telemetry. As such it may be for the INAV when it is being operated separate from the airframe. I would not be surprised if there was more to a system for operating and testing the unit on the pad, or otherwise. This may be for when it is in the shop. It would be shipped to either KSC or Vandenberg, or wherever else the Titan 4 was launched from (I don't think anywhere else). jim On 7/2/2011 1:54 PM, Nick Allen wrote: > Hi everyone, could use some help identifying some equipment if you are > up to it. > > I know it is some sort of test equipment for the Titan IV Missile, > just not sure what it was used for, and cannot find any literature > (maybe you can help). > > Below is a link to the photos of the Titan IV Missile Test equipment, > notice it comes with paper tape ribbon (I assume some code is on it). > Also notice the "Air Pressure Equalizer" knob, this lets air in/our of > the case (it is sealed with a gasket). Do you know why it would have > an "Air Pressure Equalizer" knob? I assume this means it is used in > different air pressures, would this therefore be used in space as > opposed to on the ground in your opinion? > > Photos Link: > > https://picasaweb.google.com/NeXTprototype/TitanIVMissile3?authkey=Gv1sRgCLLL4Je3vNvuhAE#5624859703529242626 > > From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Jul 3 22:52:28 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2011 15:52:28 +1200 Subject: Sorcerer BASIC ROM-PAC ROM replacements References: <4DFFDC1D.60506@dunnington.plus.com><9BF7E91077314C3099E459906470E0E9@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: Thanks Huw, Now that I've learned something of EPROMs, I'm on a roll (-: See http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-07-04-pet-rom-upgrades.htm Cheers Terry (Tez) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Huw Davies" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 1:18 AM Subject: Re: Sorcerer BASIC ROM-PAC ROM replacements > Terry, > > A great write up and an interesting read. > > Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au > Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the > Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" > > From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sun Jul 3 23:51:05 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2011 05:51:05 +0100 Subject: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <00b401cc39c6$f8c7e720$ea57b560$@ntlworld.com> References: <00a401cc3500$ff07dfc0$fd179f40$@ntlworld.com> <2483F1EA20DD498F9F225C1507CCC610@ANTONIOPC> <00a601cc3505$f8d66310$ea832930$@ntlworld.com> <00aa01cc350e$79b01960$6d104c20$@ntlworld.com> <001201cc3560$360372f0$a20a58d0$@ntlworld.com> <00b401cc39c6$f8c7e720$ea57b560$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: I am experimenting and trying to improve methods and quality. Basicly the light levels across the reader screen are just not up to the job. http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/fiche_experiments/ scanner version also shows the reader light coverage error so Im going for a close up lens on a digital camera method with a better backlight the second attempt there (Canon 6mp, el back light, and lens resting on the fiche ) shows some promise but the camera was pushed too far from its comfort zone I need a higher resolution camera and a brighter backlight and a solid mount. So will replace those images as the process gets better. Dave Caroline On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 10:19 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > Dave, > > I finally finished downloading all the images. Thanks! > > Regards > > Rob > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt >> Sent: 28 June 2011 07:54 >> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' >> Subject: RE: DEC RD53 Manual >> >> Many thanks, I am assembling the pictures into a PDF. >> >> Regards >> >> Rob >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Caroline >> > Sent: 28 June 2011 07:11 >> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> > Subject: Re: DEC RD53 Manual >> > >> > I have done the whole manual now but there are a few repeats where I >> > thought I had an error like shake >> > >> > I dont like how the centre area tends to burn out and make it >> > difficult to >> read, >> > I need a better method >> > >> > There are pics near the end showing the method of plate clamped to >> > book shelf and camera mount clamped to plate its at about 5 ft 6" >> > above the >> floor >> > >> > Dave Caroline > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 4 13:53:16 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2011 19:53:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: from "Dave Caroline" at Jul 4, 11 05:51:05 am Message-ID: > > I am experimenting and trying to improve methods and quality. > Basicly the light levels across the reader screen are just not up to the job. > http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/fiche_experiments/ This is not my area at all (of course), but I am wondering if you could get some improvement by processing the digital image. Perhaps if you put a neutral density filter in the Fiche reader (no fiche) and photogrpahed the reader screen from that you'd get an indication as to how the light intensity varies over the screen. Then use that to scane the brightenss of a photo of an actual sheet of fiche. > scanner version also shows the reader light coverage error so Im going for a > close up lens on a digital camera method with a better backlight > the second attempt there (Canon 6mp, el back light, and lens resting > on the fiche ) shows some promise but the camera was pushed too far > from its comfort zone > I need a higher resolution camera and a brighter backlight and a solid mount. Can you use 'traditional' closeup methods (extension tubes, bellows, etc) with digital SLR cameras? If so, that's what I would be looking at using. -tony From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 14:20:56 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2011 20:20:56 +0100 Subject: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tony Im just in the pocess of jury rigging a better close up experiment http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/fiche_experiments/50mm_canon_lens/IMG_1054.JPG was yesterdays experiment, some exposure error hence noise and also thats hand held next is to bolt stuff to a stand so I can increase exposure time and reduce shake at the same time I think I need a higher resolution sensor in the camera though Dave Caroline On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 7:53 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> I am experimenting and trying to improve methods and quality. >> Basicly the light levels across the reader screen are just not up to the job. >> http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/fiche_experiments/ > > This is not my area at all (of course), but I am wondering if you could > get some improvement by processing the digital image. > > Perhaps if you put a neutral density filter in the Fiche reader (no > fiche) and photogrpahed the reader screen from that you'd get an > indication as to how the light intensity varies over the screen. Then use > that to scane the brightenss of a photo of an actual sheet of fiche. > >> scanner version also shows the reader light coverage error so Im going for a >> close up lens on a digital camera method with a better backlight >> the second attempt there (Canon 6mp, el back light, and lens resting >> on the fiche ) shows some promise but the camera was pushed too far >> from its comfort zone >> I need a higher resolution camera and a brighter backlight and a solid mount. > > Can you use 'traditional' closeup methods (extension tubes, bellows, etc) > with digital SLR cameras? If so, that's what I would be looking at using. > > -tony > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 4 15:23:58 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2011 21:23:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: from "Dave Caroline" at Jul 4, 11 08:20:56 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Im just in the pocess of jury rigging a better close up experiment > http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/fiche_experiments/50mm_canon_lens/IMG_1054.JPG > was yesterdays experiment, some exposure error hence noise and also > thats hand held > next is to bolt stuff to a stand so I can increase exposure time and Some phootgraphic enlargers have the facility to remvoe the enlarger head/optics leaving a baseboard with a column and a carriag that can be moved up and down .Such thigns are idea for converting into stands for setups like this. Normally all you need is a metal bar with a male screw thread at one end to fit the camera tripod bush (normally 1/4 BSW, may be 3/8 BSW on larger/older cameras) and some way of fixing it to the carriage. [1] You don't turn down the end of a 2" or so diamater metal bar to 1/4" and then trhead it, of course. It's much easier to drill a central hole in the end of the bar ant tap it 1/4" BSW (or whatever) and use a short length of studding screwed in there to provide the male thread. Either Loctite it in place, or fit a grubscrew. > reduce shake at the same time Certainly when photogrpahing small bits of machienry using a film camera, I use the slowest film I can get (low grain, on a digital camera set the efective film speed as low as possible to resduce noise) and have the lens stopped down to increase depth of field. This leads to long exposures (several seconds in some cases) which are not a problem if the setup is rigit -- PCBs, etc do not tend to go anywhere. Depth of field is much less of a problem on a flat subject like a fice of fiche, of course -tony From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 16:44:14 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2011 22:44:14 +0100 Subject: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Attached a fiche holder to copy stand with canon camera mounted, rigged the 50mm lens off the old film eos camera on a cantilever support over the fiche as a close-up I cannot cover enough of the digital cameras sensor for easy readability but it shows promise http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/fiche_experiments/50mm_on_stand/ First image is uncropped, then a sequence from the RD53-A manual then a couple of pics of the experiment done with an old olympus one either needs to go manual focus or be a little more careful with the autofocus as one or three are a bit off the lens was only held by gravity and did shuffle around a bit hence some vignetting in places there is some light getting in causing an error shows it can be done though with simple equipment, now just needs the process improving a little and bolting the lens, adding a tube to stop extraneous light, a better camera (more megapixels) Dave Caroline On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 9:23 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Tony Im just in the pocess of jury rigging a better close up experiment >> http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/fiche_experiments/50mm_canon_lens/IMG_1054.JPG >> was yesterdays experiment, some exposure error hence noise and also >> thats hand held >> next is to bolt stuff to a stand so I can increase exposure time and > > Some phootgraphic enlargers have the facility to remvoe the enlarger > head/optics leaving a baseboard with a column and a carriag that can be > moved up and down .Such thigns are idea for converting into stands for > setups like this. Normally all you need is a metal bar with a male screw > thread at one end to fit the camera tripod bush (normally 1/4 BSW, may be > 3/8 BSW on larger/older cameras) and some way of fixing it to the carriage. > > [1] You don't turn down the end of a 2" or so diamater metal bar to 1/4" > and then trhead it, of course. It's much easier to drill a central hole > in the end of the bar ant tap it 1/4" BSW (or whatever) and use a short > length of studding screwed in there to provide the male thread. Either > Loctite it in place, or fit a grubscrew. > >> reduce shake at the same time > > Certainly when photogrpahing small bits of machienry using a film camera, > I use the slowest film I can get (low grain, on a digital camera set the > efective film speed as low as possible to resduce noise) and have the > lens stopped down to increase depth of field. This leads to long > exposures (several seconds in some cases) which are not a problem if the > setup is rigit -- PCBs, etc do not tend to go anywhere. > > Depth of field is much less of a problem on a flat subject like a fice > of fiche, of course > > -tony > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Jul 4 16:53:12 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2011 22:53:12 +0100 Subject: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E123648.4060408@dunnington.plus.com> On 04/07/2011 20:20, Dave Caroline wrote: > Tony Im just in the pocess of jury rigging a better close up experiment > http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/fiche_experiments/50mm_canon_lens/IMG_1054.JPG > was yesterdays experiment, some exposure error hence noise and also > thats hand held > next is to bolt stuff to a stand so I can increase exposure time and > reduce shake at the same time > > I think I need a higher resolution sensor in the camera though I don't think you need higher resolution, just more magnification. >> Can you use 'traditional' closeup methods (extension tubes, bellows, etc) >> with digital SLR cameras? If so, that's what I would be looking at using. To answer Tony's question, in general, yes of course you can use rings, bellows, and all the other things with digital SLRs. I suspect he knew that, maybe he was asking if Dave has access to those things. Dave, can you get hold of a set of extension rings? or a bellows unit? That'll get you better magnification. And use a shorter focal length with tubes or bellows; that increases the magnification. A good trick if you can do it is to turn the lens round. Firstly that's because camera lenses are optimised for a short distance between lens and film/sensor and a longer distance between lens and subject; here the situation is reversed so the lens will usually work better back to front. Secondly, you can often get the lens closer to the subject when it's reversed, especially with a retrofocus lens (ie a "wide angle" lens). Don't try to focus by turning the focussing ring (or moving the bellows in and out if you have one); you've possibly already discovered it's easier to set the magnification and then move the whole unit back and forth to get the focus. Ideally, stop the lens down about halfway or just a bit more; that's when most lenses are at their sharpest. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 17:15:55 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2011 23:15:55 +0100 Subject: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <4E123648.4060408@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4E123648.4060408@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: the "close up" is in fact reversed, no I dont have any extensions or tubes for the Canon 300D a look on ebay says none in the country, besides no current job so Im tight and dont spend money I would prefer a higher resolution camera with live view on the linux box, the canon is a true reflex with a mirror so makes it difficult to use in this application I would like to know if something like an Olympus X-42 can have a live view so it makes the usage a lot easier I can then preview the image before grab Dave Caroline On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 10:53 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 04/07/2011 20:20, Dave Caroline wrote: >> >> Tony Im just in the pocess of jury rigging a better close up experiment >> >> http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/fiche_experiments/50mm_canon_lens/IMG_1054.JPG >> was yesterdays experiment, some exposure error hence noise and also >> thats hand held >> next is to bolt stuff to a stand so I can increase exposure time and >> reduce shake at the same time >> >> I think I need a higher resolution sensor in the camera though > > I don't think you need higher resolution, just more magnification. > >>> Can you use 'traditional' closeup methods (extension tubes, bellows, etc) >>> with digital SLR cameras? If so, that's what I would be looking at using. > > To answer Tony's question, in general, yes of course you can use rings, > bellows, and all the other things with digital SLRs. ?I suspect he knew > that, maybe he was asking if Dave has access to those things. > > Dave, can you get hold of a set of extension rings? ?or a bellows unit? > ?That'll get you better magnification. ?And use a shorter focal length with > tubes or bellows; that increases the magnification. ?A good trick if you can > do it is to turn the lens round. ?Firstly that's because camera lenses are > optimised for a short distance between lens and film/sensor and a longer > distance between lens and subject; here the situation is reversed so the > lens will usually work better back to front. ?Secondly, you can often get > the lens closer to the subject when it's reversed, especially with a > retrofocus lens (ie a "wide angle" lens). ?Don't try to focus by turning the > focussing ring (or moving the bellows in and out if you have one); you've > possibly already discovered it's easier to set the magnification and then > move the whole unit back and forth to get the focus. ?Ideally, stop the lens > down about halfway or just a bit more; that's when most lenses are at their > sharpest. > > -- > Pete ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Peter Turnbull > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Network Manager > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?University of York > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 4 17:49:18 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2011 15:49:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: References: <4E123648.4060408@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20110704153355.H24598@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 4 Jul 2011, Dave Caroline wrote: > the "close up" is in fact reversed, no I dont have any extensions or > tubes for the Canon 300D > a look on ebay says none in the country, besides no current job so Im > tight and dont spend money How does 6.72 U$D INCLUDING SHIPPING sound? http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=canon+eos+exten*+tube*+&_sacat=0&_sop=15&_odkw=canon+eos+exten*+tube*+300d&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313 Not automatic stop-down, and noticably inferior workmanship compared to what Canon makes, but still quite usable. > > I don't think you need higher resolution, just more magnification. More magnification can make it feasable to photograph one frame of the fiche at a time. Higher resolution may make it feasable to photograph the entire fiche card at once. How many cards are you doing? My personal preference is to adapt to M39 and use an enlarger lens (flat field). With M39 lens and Exakta mount bellows, I have to adapt. There are also some cheap adapters for microscope objectives (RMS mount) But, an EOS reversing ring (again, Chinese workmanship) is very cheap. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jws at jwsss.com Mon Jul 4 17:53:03 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2011 15:53:03 -0700 Subject: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: References: <4E123648.4060408@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4E12444F.5040607@jwsss.com> I was able to do an entire fiche sheet in about 10 minutes with an Epson Perfection (with transparency backlight) and their software. The way to do it is to set up a spot on the scanner bed where you will spot each sheet. After doing a reference scan, the software allows you to make up a scan area select icon, which I placed around one of the images on the reference scan. I can also see the size to be able to recreate the shape each time i restart. You can place it over each image, and the scanner will do the scan for each image as you hit the scan button. I would then manually move the icon to the next image on the sheet, till done. I set the resolution high enough on the scans to produce an image equivalent to what one would get if scanning an 8 1/2 x 11 page (what the images were) if scanning at 400dpi. The main project is the War Diaries of a US Navy Squadron, but you can see the results here: http://vpb208.org/Diaries%20and%20Documents.html Jim From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 4 21:35:04 2011 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2011 19:35:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Titan IV Missile Test Equipment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1309833304.69103.YahooMailClassic@web114603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> You should ask on the arocket mailing list: http://exrocketry.net/mailman/listinfo/arocket > Message: 6 > Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2011 15:54:16 -0500 > From: Nick Allen > Subject: Titan IV Missile Test Equipment > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <4E0F8578.7040901 at comcast.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; > format=flowed > > Hi everyone, could use some help identifying some equipment > if you are > up to it. > > I know it is some sort of test equipment for the Titan IV > Missile, just > not sure what it was used for, and cannot find any > literature (maybe you > can help). > > Below is a link to the photos of the Titan IV Missile Test > equipment, > notice it comes with paper tape ribbon (I assume some code > is on it).? > Also notice the "Air Pressure Equalizer" knob, this lets > air in/our of > the case (it is sealed with a gasket).? Do you know > why it would have an > "Air Pressure Equalizer" knob?? I assume this means it > is used in > different air pressures, would this therefore be used in > space as > opposed to on the ground in your opinion? > > Photos Link: > > https://picasaweb.google.com/NeXTprototype/TitanIVMissile3?authkey=Gv1sRgCLLL4Je3vNvuhAE#5624859703529242626 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 5 00:30:29 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 00:30:29 -0500 Subject: Titan IV Missile Test Equipment In-Reply-To: References: <4E0F8578.7040901@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 5:26 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Sat, 2 Jul 2011, Nick Allen wrote: > >> Below is a link to the photos of the Titan IV Missile Test equipment, >> ... notice the "Air Pressure Equalizer" knob... > > Not in space, but on a plane. The air pressure in an aircraft cabin at > altitude is significantly less than 1atm Civilian cabins are routinely pressurized around 7000-8000 ft, though it varies gradually throughout the flight. > The military even has air-insulated > boots for use in the arctic that have a valve on them so they don't crush > your feet when you're flying. The nickname for them is "Bunny Boots" - they look like white Micky Mouse boots and the valve is a source of noob hazing (you tell someone new that they have to get the glycol changed out in their new boots and send them to the motor pool/vehicle maintenance facility, where everyone knows the joke...hilarity ensues). If you forget to open the valve prior to take-off, they get darn uncomfortable at altitude, and there's so much pressure that the valve sticks (I tried it once intentionally, to see how much they swelled up, and I didn't last until cruising altitude). -ethan From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Jul 5 01:02:16 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 07:02:16 +0100 Subject: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <4E12444F.5040607@jwsss.com> References: <4E123648.4060408@dunnington.plus.com> <4E12444F.5040607@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Fiche were routinely done at two resolutions(I just googled 3 magnifications 24x,42x,48x) that I know of, I have an Epson perfection 3200 photo scanner, its the first thing I tried a year or more ago, unfortunately its not good enough for the high magnification used for DEC fiche I have a paper RRD42 user manual which is 7" wide, that makes DEC fiche are/were made at 42 x reduction, therefore I need 16800 to get 400 dpi of an original 5 times higher resolution than my Epson has. Dave Caroline On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 11:53 PM, jim s wrote: > I was able to do an entire fiche sheet in about 10 minutes with an Epson > Perfection (with transparency backlight) and their software. > > The way to do it is to set up a spot on the scanner bed where you will spot > each sheet. ?After doing a reference scan, the software allows you to make > up a scan area select icon, which I placed around one of the images on the > reference scan. ?I can also see the size to be able to recreate the shape > each time i restart. > > You can place it over each image, and the scanner will do the scan for each > image as you hit the scan button. ?I would then manually move the icon to > the next image on the sheet, till done. > > I set the resolution high enough on the scans to produce an image equivalent > to what one would get if scanning an 8 1/2 x 11 page (what the images were) > if scanning at 400dpi. > > The main project is the War Diaries of a US Navy Squadron, but you can see > the results here: > > http://vpb208.org/Diaries%20and%20Documents.html > > Jim > From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Jul 5 01:50:23 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 07:50:23 +0100 Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <20110704153355.H24598@shell.lmi.net> References: <4E123648.4060408@dunnington.plus.com> <20110704153355.H24598@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 11:49 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 4 Jul 2011, Dave Caroline wrote: >> the "close up" is in fact reversed, no I dont have any extensions or >> tubes for the Canon 300D >> a look on ebay says none in the country, besides no current job so Im >> tight and dont spend money > > How does 6.72 U$D INCLUDING SHIPPING sound? > http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=canon+eos+exten*+tube*+&_sacat=0&_sop=15&_odkw=canon+eos+exten*+tube*+300d&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313 > Not automatic stop-down, and noticably inferior workmanship compared to > what Canon makes, but still quite usable. > > >> > I don't think you need higher resolution, just more magnification. > More magnification can make it feasable to photograph one frame of the > fiche at a time. > Higher resolution may make it feasable to photograph the entire fiche card > at once. Also makes it feasable to use cheaper optics that are vignetting > > How many cards are you doing? not catalogued yet but I think I have over 2 feet thick of fiche cards and at 4 thou each that means around 6000 ish I will continue as I am and catalogue first and only scan on request > > > My personal preference is to adapt to M39 and use an enlarger lens (flat > field). ?With M39 lens and Exakta mount bellows, I have to adapt. > There are also some cheap adapters for microscope objectives (RMS mount) > > But, an EOS reversing ring (again, Chinese workmanship) is very > cheap. The canon with its mirror is basicly not really suitable to the high picture qty needed here hence me looking for a more suitable body to scavange/use, I really need a live PC image for lining up So Im not investing in bits to go the canon route Dave Caroline From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jul 5 03:03:52 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2011 09:03:52 +0100 Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: References: <4E123648.4060408@dunnington.plus.com> <20110704153355.H24598@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E12C568.2010406@dunnington.plus.com> On 05/07/2011 07:50, Dave Caroline wrote: >>>> I don't think you need higher resolution, just more magnification. >> More magnification can make it feasable to photograph one frame of the >> fiche at a time. >> Higher resolution may make it feasable to photograph the entire fiche card >> at once. You'd need an awfully high-res sensor to do that! Back-of-envelope arithmetic: If you want something equivalent to scanning a 10.5x8 page at 400dpi, you need 3200 pixels across a (portrait) page. The 1978 BA11-K fiche I have in front of me is a low-magnification (by DEC standards one, and it's 16 pages across, but they're landscape format pages, so that works out to 10.5 x 400 x 16 = 67,000 pixels wide, and therefore the sensor would have to be about 67,000 x 48,000 = 3,216,000,000 pixels. Thats 3216 megapixels. The 1987 Bulletin fiche I have in front of me is 25 (portrait) pages across. 400dpi x 8" x 25 = 80,000, which is even worse. Even if you accepted 100dpi, you still end up needing a sensor of about 200 megapixels. > Also makes it feasable to use cheaper optics that are vignetting Possibly, but a lens that's extended (for higher magnification) will reduce or remove the vignetting problem more quickly. > The canon with its mirror is basicly not really suitable to the high > picture qty needed here > hence me looking for a more suitable body to scavange/use, I really > need a live PC image for lining up > So Im not investing in bits to go the canon route Why isn't it suitable for lining up? It's a reflex -- so WYSIWYG. I could understand that it might be hard to get at the eyepiece when it's all set up, but you could try getting an angle finder attachment. The Seagull ones aren't "insanely great" quality compared to genuine Pentax ones (for example) but they're easily good enough for alignment, and cheap. -- Pete From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Jul 5 03:30:02 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 09:30:02 +0100 Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <4E12C568.2010406@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4E123648.4060408@dunnington.plus.com> <20110704153355.H24598@shell.lmi.net> <4E12C568.2010406@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 9:03 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 05/07/2011 07:50, Dave Caroline wrote: > >>>>> I don't think you need higher resolution, just more magnification. >>> >>> More magnification can make it feasable to photograph one frame of the >>> fiche at a time. >>> Higher resolution may make it feasable to photograph the entire fiche >>> card >>> at once. > > You'd need an awfully high-res sensor to do that! ?Back-of-envelope > arithmetic: > If you want something equivalent to scanning a 10.5x8 page at 400dpi, you > need 3200 pixels across a (portrait) page. > The 1978 BA11-K fiche I have in front of me is a low-magnification (by DEC > standards one, and it's 16 pages across, but they're landscape format pages, > so that works out to 10.5 x 400 x 16 = 67,000 pixels wide, and therefore the no one image at a time not the whole fiche! > sensor would have to be about 67,000 x 48,000 = 3,216,000,000 pixels. ?Thats > 3216 megapixels. > The 1987 Bulletin fiche I have in front of me is 25 (portrait) pages across. > ?400dpi x 8" x 25 = 80,000, which is even worse. > Even if you accepted 100dpi, you still end up needing a sensor of about 200 > megapixels. > >> Also makes it feasable to use cheaper optics that are vignetting > > Possibly, but a lens that's extended (for higher magnification) will reduce > or remove the vignetting problem more quickly. > >> The canon with its mirror is basicly not really suitable to the high >> picture qty needed here >> hence me looking for a more suitable body to scavange/use, I really >> need a live PC image for lining up >> So Im not investing in bits to go the canon route > > Why isn't it suitable for lining up? ?It's a reflex -- so WYSIWYG. ?I could I have just done most of one fiche the squint down the eyepiece move fiche to fit press button see if it can focus, repeat move till focus got take pic hold still 4 secs is a crap user experience! did you notice the qty in my other reply, 6k fiche say 71 images per fiche if we take the rrd53 as an average and 8 secs per image 3408000 seconds of peering down the eyepiece getting backache > understand that it might be hard to get at the eyepiece when it's all set > up, but you could try getting an angle finder attachment. ?The Seagull ones > aren't "insanely great" quality compared to genuine Pentax ones (for > example) but they're easily good enough for alignment, and cheap. cheap still does not cut it for someone out of work probably the right way is a pair of rollers and some optics and the scanner bar from a flatbed and a hacked sane driver for the resultant scanner but keeping it in focus will not be easy Dave Caroline From Jeff.Nickel at meaforensic.com Tue Jul 5 11:56:31 2011 From: Jeff.Nickel at meaforensic.com (Jeff S. Nickel) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 16:56:31 +0000 Subject: Radio Shack Science Fair manuals Message-ID: Hi Brian, My son (age 11) bought the 200-in-1 kit at a garage sale last week but it was without a manual. Do you think you could scan the manual you have and send it to me? I am not much help for him with electronic gizmos I'm afriad. Thank you, Jeff Nickel From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jul 5 12:21:53 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 13:21:53 -0400 Subject: Radio Shack Science Fair manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: O > My son (age 11) bought the 200-in-1 kit at a garage sale last week but it was without a manual. ?Do you think you could scan the manual you have and send it to me? ?I am not much help for him with electronic gizmos I'm afriad. radioshack.com has a huge number of old manuals already online. Check there first. -- Will From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 5 13:00:36 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 14:00:36 -0400 Subject: Radio Shack Science Fair manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 1:21 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> My son (age 11) bought the 200-in-1 kit at a garage sale last week but it was without a manual. ?Do you think you could scan the manual you have and send it to me? ?I am not much help for him with electronic gizmos I'm afriad. > > radioshack.com has a huge number of old manuals already online. Check > there first. Radioshack.com has over 3800 manuals online. Only one is for their line of electronic project kits (the 60-in-1 block-type electronic lab, and it's a preliminary copy missing all of the "vendor" supplied drawings). For all the things that they do publish and make available freely, this class of documentation hasn't been one of them. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 5 13:12:19 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 11:12:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: References: <4E123648.4060408@dunnington.plus.com> <20110704153355.H24598@shell.lmi.net> <4E12C568.2010406@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20110705103331.G58504@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 5 Jul 2011, Dave Caroline wrote: > no one image at a time not the whole fiche! would be nice IFF such hardware were available. > >> Also makes it feasable to use cheaper optics that are vignetting > > Possibly, but a lens that's extended (for higher magnification) will reduce > > or remove the vignetting problem more quickly. a relatively short focal length lens usually has a pretty wide cone, and at those magnifications, even a C-mount lens will probably cover a 4x5 negative. > > Why isn't it suitable for lining up? ?It's a reflex -- so WYSIWYG. ?I > I have just done most of one fiche the > squint down the eyepiece > move fiche to fit > press button see if it can focus, repeat move till focus got > take pic hold > still 4 secs > is a crap user experience! But, THANK YOU for doing it! If the mount and jig arre solid enough, it should be possible to align the next frame without having to peer through the rig. If the mount is solid enough, refocussing should not be necessary - set to MANUAL FOCUS, and only focus once, with a visual re-check periodically. BTDT. > did you notice the qty in my other reply, > 6k fiche say 71 images per fiche if we take the rrd53 as an average > and 8 secs per image > 3408000 seconds of peering down the eyepiece getting backache BTDT In 1972 ("Environmental Systems Analyst"), we got a contract from EPA to study the enforcemtn activities in the "great lakes" states, and what effect they were having. My task was to photograph every document that looked relevant in their files. (In Illinois, that included written acknowledgements of payoffs!; in Minnesota it included documenting the relative amounts of work put into shutting down Reserve Mining (with lies in press conferences, etc.!) V less than 50% up time for Duluth's PRIMARY sewage treatment plant; in Michigan, it included teaching remedial photography techniques to their field operatives; and so forth) We edited those images down to a 10,000 page documentary appendix. I used a couple of pre-WW2 Leicas, a focoslide, and a Summar lens (a very bad choice) Most tripods from the 1960s through 1990s, you can remove the center post and re-install it upside down, making a crude stand. Since fiche image positioning is fairly standard, are there any dead surplus fiche viewers that you could pilfer the stage and positioning mechanism (with detents?) from? That mechanism combined with the mounting parts of a cheap bellows slide copying attachment (and using a much shorter focal length lens) would make a sweet, and even portable, rig! > probably the right way is a pair of rollers and some optics and the > scanner bar from a flatbed > and a hacked sane driver for the resultant scanner but keeping it in > focus will not be easy For photography, if you an provide enough light, you should be able to stop the lens down enough to give you a decent amount of latitude on the focus. I realize that you will want an exceptionally small Circle-Of-Confusion (the resulting blur size of a "point"), but a "decent" lens stopped way down (sharpest is, however, usually about three stops down from wide open), should solve the focus change issue. Although money is an issue, you might be able to build a cheap single purpose rig (and then get filthy rich charging the rest of us for fiche digitizing!) Good luck, -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jul 5 13:15:06 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 14:15:06 -0400 Subject: Radio Shack Science Fair manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Radioshack.com has over 3800 manuals online. ?Only one is for their > line of electronic project kits (the 60-in-1 block-type electronic > lab, and it's a preliminary copy missing all of the "vendor" supplied > drawings). > > For all the things that they do publish and make available freely, > this class of documentation hasn't been one of them. Perhaps there is so little demand these days. Oh well. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 5 13:25:48 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2011 11:25:48 -0700 Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <20110705103331.G58504@shell.lmi.net> References: , , <20110705103331.G58504@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E12F4BC.20432.6B0BA0@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Jul 2011 at 11:12, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 5 Jul 2011, Dave Caroline wrote: > > no one image at a time not the whole fiche! > > would be nice IFF such hardware were available. How about using a low-power microscope with a camera to shoot one page at a time? I've got a bunch of old microfiche and never had much luck with a scanner or digicam with macro lens. --Chuck From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Jul 5 14:55:26 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 20:55:26 +0100 Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <4E12F4BC.20432.6B0BA0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20110705103331.G58504@shell.lmi.net> <4E12F4BC.20432.6B0BA0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: When you see ebay item 160562701815 from down under it becomes obvious what Im trying to do but at a sensible cost you can see I have a suitable stand with a fiche holder from an old fiche reader http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/fiche_experiments/50mm_on_stand/p1010114.jpg This evening I have had a google/look at available open software if any for camera control libgphoto2 seems to cover the usb connection, fetching pictures and control I have got it to fetch pictures from both my cameras, but the graphical reference application (gtkam) by the same group is woefully backwards in that it can only download not control the camera. gphoto2 can use the lib to control and take pictures but its command line only! this is 2011 and pictures are graphics! some mug/volunteer should fix gtkam :) to be useful Dave Caroline From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Jul 5 15:23:27 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 21:23:27 +0100 Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5CFC6311D1D14FA0A524D2EC3C994758@ANTONIOPC> Dave Caroline [dave.thearchivist at gmail.com] wrote: > When you see ebay item 160562701815 from down under it > becomes obvious what Im trying to do but at a sensible cost I've spent a few days idly wandering the web looking at various scanners. No doubt these will (one day) be dirt cheap [1] but right now a decent solution looks like it is in the $10K-$15K ball park. (That's for a ScanPro 2000, but there are various similar systems for about the same price). That ScanPro boasts a capture time of ~one second for a frame. It doesn't explicitly say that you can load a fiche, hit a button and come back later to find a complete PDF, so I assume that you can't. That would mean maybe 10-15 minutes to manually scan a full fiche. Probably reasonable for the occasional manual; probably not feasible for the amount of fiche I have on hand. There must be fully automated systems around (since the scanning services offer quick turnaround times) but I assume that they cost somewhat more. I suppose 10-20 years ago a fiche reader would have been too expensive for a home user and yet today you can get one quite cheaply on that auction site, so there's always hope. Anyone know what today's top-of-the-line automated scanner might be so I can keep my eyes open :-) Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Jul 5 15:43:29 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 21:43:29 +0100 Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <5CFC6311D1D14FA0A524D2EC3C994758@ANTONIOPC> References: <5CFC6311D1D14FA0A524D2EC3C994758@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: Automation is not out of the question for home brew I have made a 5 axix cnc, and retrofitted a lathe both use EMC2 software One thought is a hacked scanner, with the motor moving the fiche carriage instead but its not simple to have an easy focusing on that We could overlap scan sensors to cover the whole width and then calibrate out sensor positions and merge the resultant images, but that involves getting a pile of donor hardware and loads of effort as well. but the 2-3 k cost for simple and 10k for automatic are out of the question Catalogue the fiche and only scan on demand is my intended method. Probably helps to induce the odd donation too, if its an easy download one just sees costs and effort for ones labour Dave Caroline From JGessling at btmg.com Tue Jul 5 14:12:54 2011 From: JGessling at btmg.com (James Gessling) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 19:12:54 +0000 Subject: Radio Shack Science Fair manuals Message-ID: <78B0B244E482354D843167E3551C977E2D367D52@BTEXMB1.btcorp.com> I might have this one, can you look on the box and post the exact part number. Is it 28-265? Thanks, Jim ________________________________________________________________ The information contained in this email is legally privileged and confidential information only for the use of the individual or Brown & Toland Medical Group. Any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this document is strictly prohibited. If you have received this in error, please immediately notify the sender by replying to this message, and then delete all copies of it from your system. Thank you. From jonas at otter.se Tue Jul 5 14:40:36 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2011 21:40:36 +0200 Subject: DEC RD53 Manual Message-ID: <4E1368B4.70407@otter.se> Will a flatbed photo (transparency) scanner not do? My Epson 4180 will do 4800 x 9600 dpi and I should think a fiche would fit under the light in the lid without an adapter, or one could make up some sort of fiche adapter from polystyrene sheet from the model shop. If an entire fiche does not fit at once, one could scan it in two passes. /Jonas From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 5 15:11:47 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 21:11:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <4E123648.4060408@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jul 4, 11 10:53:12 pm Message-ID: > >> Can you use 'traditional' closeup methods (extension tubes, bellows, etc) > >> with digital SLR cameras? If so, that's what I would be looking at using. > > To answer Tony's question, in general, yes of course you can use rings, > bellows, and all the other things with digital SLRs. I suspect he knew > that, maybe he was asking if Dave has access to those things. Actually, I didn;t know if such thinbgs were useable with all digital SLRs. I realise that optically it must be possible, but since modern equipment seems to be universally designed to make mildly complex things impossible, I wondered if there was some gotcha, like the exposure meter or autofocus wouldn't bahave and the camera would refuse to record an iamge as a result. Most compact digital cameras I've seen seem to be lacking features that I regard as essential (and which are on film cameras that I own that are over 70 yrars old) -- things like filter threads, cable release sockets, flash sync contacts, etc. So I would not have assuemd thatr digital SLRs would allow me to do everytthing my 50-year-old Exakta Varex will do. > > Dave, can you get hold of a set of extension rings? or a bellows unit? > That'll get you better magnification. And use a shorter focal length > with tubes or bellows; that increases the magnification. A good trick > if you can do it is to turn the lens round. Firstly that's because How will the automatic coupling work if you turn the lens round? Most DSLR lenses that I've seen lack manual control of aperture, etc so you might have problems. I always thought Praktica got it right on the VLC series. Open-aperture metering was coupled by 3 contacts on the lens mount, stop-down was the traditional M42 pin. There was a pair of rings, one screwed into the camera mout, the other on the back of the lens. The wrre linked by a plug-in cable to carry the aperture data, an a double cable release stopped the lens down befroe tripping the shutter. Point being you could turn the lens round (coupling ring now on the subject side of the lens) without any problems. > camera lenses are optimised for a short distance between lens and > film/sensor and a longer distance between lens and subject; here the > situation is reversed so the lens will usually work better back to If you can use a totally manual lens (no automatic diaphragm at all), a good quality enlarger lense (EL-Nikkor, for example) is good for this. > front. Secondly, you can often get the lens closer to the subject when > it's reversed, especially with a retrofocus lens (ie a "wide angle" > lens). Don't try to focus by turning the focussing ring (or moving the In a lot of 'tradiitoanl' cases, the focusing mount does absolutely nothing if the lens is reversed. It moves the entire optical unit (imcluding the front filter thread) relative to the cmaera mounting flange, so when the lens is reversed it doesn't actually move anything useful. Of course if you happen to have a Rollei SL66, you cna reves the standard lens on the built-in bellows with no extra bits at all. But I've never seen a ditital back for one of those. > bellows in and out if you have one); you've possibly already discovered > it's easier to set the magnification and then move the whole unit back > and forth to get the focus. Ideally, stop the lens down about halfway > or just a bit more; that's when most lenses are at their sharpest. This depends on the subject. For flat subjects like fiche, I would agree with you (most lenses have a peak resolution around f/5.6 or f/8). For 3-dimension subjects, like bits of classic computer, you may need to stop down further to get enough depth of field. -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jul 5 15:55:12 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2011 13:55:12 -0700 Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <5CFC6311D1D14FA0A524D2EC3C994758@ANTONIOPC> References: <5CFC6311D1D14FA0A524D2EC3C994758@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <4E137A30.8030305@bitsavers.org> On 7/5/11 1:23 PM, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > That ScanPro boasts a capture time of ~one second for a frame. It > doesn't explicitly say that you can load a fiche, hit a button and > come back later to find a complete PDF, so I assume that you can't. > That would mean maybe 10-15 minutes to manually scan a full fiche. > Probably reasonable for the occasional manual; probably not feasible > for the amount of fiche I have on hand. > it is better than the device they used to sell, which was just a scanner bolted into a fiche reader, but it is totally manual positioning > There must be fully automated systems around (since the scanning > services > offer quick turnaround times) but I assume that they cost somewhat more. > uh huh.. > Anyone know what today's > top-of-the-line automated scanner might be so I can keep my eyes open > Mekel, but make sure it comes with the scanning software, which costs as much as the ScanPro. A first generation Mekel cost me 15K about 7 years ago. The seller didn't bother to tell me the fiche auto-loader had been removed. Fortunately, you can work around it being missing. Even with step and repeat, it takes a long time to grind through sheets of DEC 48x pages. The frames are very closely packed and they did stupid things like intermix page sizes to step and repeat screws up. To be honest, if you're doing DEC fiche, just get a service bureau to scan it. This assumes you can find someone competent to handle scanning it correctly. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 5 15:40:49 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 21:40:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <20110704153355.H24598@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jul 4, 11 03:49:18 pm Message-ID: > My personal preference is to adapt to M39 and use an enlarger lens (flat If you can conmvice the cmaera to use a 'dumb' lens (no automation) and an get an adapter to a screw mount, things become a lot simpler. One great advantge of screw mounts, at least for me, is that they are a lot easier to make (simple thread cutting) than bayonet mounts. So you can make up your own adapters. > field). With M39 lens and Exakta mount bellows, I have to adapt. If that's the genuine Exakta Large bellows, keep it unmodified and find a Varex :-). If it's a 3rd party thing, you'll often find that the lens and camera flanges are separate parts fixed to the standards with 4 screws. It's easy to repalce them with the ones you want. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 5 15:48:45 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 21:48:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <4E12C568.2010406@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jul 5, 11 09:03:52 am Message-ID: > You'd need an awfully high-res sensor to do that! Back-of-envelope > arithmetic: > If you want something equivalent to scanning a 10.5x8 page at 400dpi, > you need 3200 pixels across a (portrait) page. > The 1978 BA11-K fiche I have in front of me is a low-magnification (by > DEC standards one, and it's 16 pages across, but they're landscape > format pages, so that works out to 10.5 x 400 x 16 = 67,000 pixels wide, > and therefore the sensor would have to be about 67,000 x 48,000 = > 3,216,000,000 pixels. Thats 3216 megapixels. What is the resolution of the digital 5*4 backs that I am told are now avaialble? I susepct rather less than that,. > Why isn't it suitable for lining up? It's a reflex -- so WYSIWYG. I > could understand that it might be hard to get at the eyepiece when it's > all set up, but you could try getting an angle finder attachment. The Does any digitla SLR have interchanable finders like my Exakta, Nikon F, etc film cameras? > Seagull ones aren't "insanely great" quality compared to genuine Pentax > ones (for example) but they're easily good enough for alignment, and cheap. Since the optical quality here has no effect on the final image, it's the srt of thing yoy can have a go at making from odd lenses, prisms, etc. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 5 16:12:07 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 14:12:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110705140355.L58504@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 5 Jul 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > > My personal preference is to adapt to M39 and use an enlarger lens (flat > If you can conmvice the cmaera to use a 'dumb' lens (no automation) and > an get an adapter to a screw mount, things become a lot simpler. My Panasonic M4/3 has an option called "shoot without lens"! which is their wording for 'dumb' lens. > If that's the genuine Exakta Large bellows, keep it unmodified and find a > Varex :-). If it's a 3rd party thing, you'll often find that the lens and > camera flanges are separate parts fixed to the standards with 4 screws. > It's easy to repalce them with the ones you want. Mostly I use a Kopil Bellowsmat. Not as well made as the Nikon PB4, but more convenient. It's hard to find the Bellowsmat with any mount other than Exakta, so I've bought a few cheap (as in beer) Kopil bellows of other models with other mounts to swap their mounts with the Bellowsmats. Now I need to get rid of some non-Bellowsmat Kopil bellows that now have Exakta mounts. When I can get access to a lathe, I'll modify M4/3 mount adapters for the things that I need them for. If the focus is changing so much from one frame to another, then it calls for placing the fiche between glass. From jws at jwsss.com Tue Jul 5 17:03:01 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2011 15:03:01 -0700 Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <20110705140355.L58504@shell.lmi.net> References: <20110705140355.L58504@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E138A15.2040803@jwsss.com> On 7/5/2011 2:12 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: I have a rig that goes from a 5mm Mitutoyo microscope lens to T adapter that would probably work for the optics here. As Al said the problem is finding the images to digitize. Is any of the software available for any scanner such that you could scan a preview, then compute a followup to pick up the remaining individual frames off the sheet? Rigging a robotic pick and swap of the sheets would be fun to do if you could automate the scanning software in between. Jim From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 5 17:07:31 2011 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 23:07:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Titan IV Missile Test Equipment Message-ID: <1309903651.92907.YahooMailClassic@web29616.mail.ird.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2011 6:30 AM Subject: Re: Titan IV Missile Test Equipment > > On Sat, 2 Jul 2011, Nick Allen wrote: > > > > The military even has air-insulated > > boots for use in the arctic that have a valve on them so they don't crush > > your feet when you're flying. > > The nickname for them is "Bunny Boots" - they look like white Micky > Mouse boots and the valve is a source of noob hazing (you tell someone > new that they have to get the glycol changed out in their new boots > and send them to the motor pool/vehicle maintenance facility, where > everyone knows the joke...hilarity ensues). > > If you forget to open the valve prior to take-off, they get darn > uncomfortable at altitude, and there's so much pressure that the valve > sticks (I tried it once intentionally, to see how much they swelled > up, and I didn't last until cruising altitude). > > -ethan Why a valve and not a hole? Surely if it had holes you wouldn't need to worry about opening it? Or are there times when you need the valve closed? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 5 17:08:33 2011 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 23:08:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual Message-ID: <1309903713.43773.YahooMailClassic@web29620.mail.ird.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Turnbull" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2011 9:03 AM Subject: Re: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual > On 05/07/2011 07:50, Dave Caroline wrote: > > >>>> I don't think you need higher resolution, just more magnification. > >> More magnification can make it feasable to photograph one frame of the > >> fiche at a time. > >> Higher resolution may make it feasable to photograph the entire fiche card > >> at once. > > You'd need an awfully high-res sensor to do that!? Back-of-envelope > arithmetic: > If you want something equivalent to scanning a 10.5x8 page at 400dpi, > you need 3200 pixels across a (portrait) page. > The 1978 BA11-K fiche I have in front of me is a low-magnification (by > DEC standards one, and it's 16 pages across, but they're landscape > format pages, so that works out to 10.5 x 400 x 16 = 67,000 pixels wide, > and therefore the sensor would have to be about 67,000 x 48,000 = > 3,216,000,000 pixels.? Thats 3216 megapixels. > The 1987 Bulletin fiche I have in front of me is 25 (portrait) pages > across.? 400dpi x 8" x 25 = 80,000, which is even worse. > Even if you accepted 100dpi, you still end up needing a sensor of about > 200 megapixels. > Would the hubble telescope do? I assume it's digital because it makes it quicker to get images from it, and if it was film-based the film would have to be huge, right? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Jul 5 17:13:16 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 23:13:16 +0100 Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <4E138A15.2040803@jwsss.com> References: <20110705140355.L58504@shell.lmi.net> <4E138A15.2040803@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Finding the images is a bit of a mine field, as there are variations in "standards" some are in columns some in rows, mixed sizes due to fold out pages intermingled some positive some negative and differing reduction ratio. and positive on a clear background means no clear edge At my prices thats has to be manual till I get a job/ win the lottery Dave Caroline On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 11:03 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: > On 7/5/2011 2:12 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > I have a rig that goes from a 5mm Mitutoyo microscope lens to T adapter that > would probably work for the optics here. ?As Al said the problem is finding > the images to digitize. > > Is any of the software available for any scanner such that you could scan a > preview, then compute a followup to pick up the remaining individual frames > off the sheet? > > Rigging a robotic pick and swap of the sheets would be fun to do if you > could automate the scanning software in ?between. > > Jim > From als at thangorodrim.de Tue Jul 5 17:44:10 2011 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 00:44:10 +0200 Subject: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: References: <4E123648.4060408@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20110705224410.GA8876@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Tue, Jul 05, 2011 at 09:11:47PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > >> Can you use 'traditional' closeup methods (extension tubes, bellows, etc) > > >> with digital SLR cameras? If so, that's what I would be looking at using. > > > > To answer Tony's question, in general, yes of course you can use rings, > > bellows, and all the other things with digital SLRs. I suspect he knew > > that, maybe he was asking if Dave has access to those things. > > Actually, I didn;t know if such thinbgs were useable with all digital > SLRs. I realise that optically it must be possible, but since modern > equipment seems to be universally designed to make mildly complex things > impossible, I wondered if there was some gotcha, like the exposure meter > or autofocus wouldn't bahave and the camera would refuse to record an > iamge as a result. > > Most compact digital cameras I've seen seem to be lacking features that I > regard as essential (and which are on film cameras that I own that are > over 70 yrars old) Well, the compact digital cameras usually target the point&shoot market. While they may have computationally expensive features like face detection, smile detection, ... they tend to aim for a rather simple user interface and usually omit anything the casual (not even hobby) photographer usually doesn't need. The DSLRs however are another matter, since they target the serious amateur, semiprofessional or professional photographer market. Speaking (as an example) for my Nikon D300S: > -- things like filter threads, check, currently using a simple UV filter (more as a cheap mechanical protection for the lens than anything else since it is 99% transparent). > cable release sockets, check, currently via a Canon cable release and a GPS interface module, but I'm sure Nikon has something appropriate > flash sync contacts check, while it has its own surprisingly useful popup flash, it does have the mount & contacts for a proper flash unit >, etc. So I would not have assuemd thatr digital SLRs > would allow me to do everytthing my 50-year-old Exakta Varex will do. A good DSLR should allow you to do that. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jul 5 17:47:28 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2011 23:47:28 +0100 Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E139480.6000405@dunnington.plus.com> On 05/07/2011 21:48, Tony Duell wrote: >> You'd need an awfully high-res sensor to do that! Back-of-envelope > What is the resolution of the digital 5*4 backs that I am told are now > avaialble? I susepct rather less than that,. 20-100 megapixels. And priced accordingly. A colleague asked me to photograph her wedding a few years ago (she knew I had been a professional photographer in the dim and distant past). I said no, she wanted someone with a good digital camera and recent practice to take lots of photos. She said OK, but when she found out the going rates, asked again. So, having just been looking at the adverts for the then-new 22MP digital back for one of my Mamiyas, I said I would do it if she bought the digital back for me. She /almost/ agreed. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jul 5 17:42:01 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2011 23:42:01 +0100 Subject: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E139339.2040206@dunnington.plus.com> On 05/07/2011 21:11, Tony Duell wrote: >> To answer Tony's question, in general, yes of course you can use rings, >> bellows, and all the other things with digital SLRs. I suspect he knew >> that, maybe he was asking if Dave has access to those things. > > Actually, I didn;t know if such thinbgs were useable with all digital > SLRs. I realise that optically it must be possible, but since modern > equipment seems to be universally designed to make mildly complex things > impossible, I wondered if there was some gotcha, like the exposure meter > or autofocus wouldn't bahave and the camera would refuse to record an > iamge as a result. The autofocus might or might not -- decent ones will, and all sensible SLRs can turn the auto off. Which, actually, is what you'd want for closeup work, especially repetitive work with a fixed stand. > How will the automatic coupling work if you turn the lens round? Most > DSLR lenses that I've seen lack manual control of aperture, etc so you > might have problems. It doesn't work, but many DSLR lenses do allow manual control. Almost all of mine do. >> Ideally, stop the lens down about halfway >> or just a bit more; that's when most lenses are at their sharpest. > > This depends on the subject. For flat subjects like fiche, I would agree > with you (most lenses have a peak resolution around f/5.6 or f/8). For > 3-dimension subjects, like bits of classic computer, you may need to stop > down further to get enough depth of field. Sure, but I was thinking of resolution not depth of field. And I'm sure you have lenses that don't open up as wide as f/8 ;-) same as I do. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 5 17:56:11 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 15:56:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <20110705224410.GA8876@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <4E123648.4060408@dunnington.plus.com> <20110705224410.GA8876@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <20110705155415.R67674@shell.lmi.net> > >, etc. So I would not have assuemd thatr digital SLRs > > would allow me to do everytthing my 50-year-old Exakta Varex will do. On Wed, 6 Jul 2011, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > A good DSLR should allow you to do that. specifically, which ones permit you to remove the pentaprism for "waist level": view of the ground glass? From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jul 5 18:06:24 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2011 00:06:24 +0100 Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: References: <4E123648.4060408@dunnington.plus.com> <20110704153355.H24598@shell.lmi.net> <4E12C568.2010406@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4E1398F0.6070805@dunnington.plus.com> On 05/07/2011 09:30, Dave Caroline wrote: > no one image at a time not the whole fiche! My mistake, somehow I thought you were trying to do one fiche in one go! > I have just done most of one fiche the > squint down the eyepiece > move fiche to fit > press button see if it can focus, repeat move till focus got > take pic hold > still 4 secs > is a crap user experience! That I believe :-) But I'm sure you can rig up something to hold the camera still and in a fixed position relative to the fiche, also held still and flat. Even a wooden frame if you don't have a suitable tripod that can look straight down onto fiche on a makeshift lightbox. The tripod screw on any standard small-format camera or DSLR is a 1/4-inch Whitworth thread, and although that's not a common size in the States (other than camera shops), camera shops and secondhand shops here often have odd tripod screws as spares or off surplus pan/tilt heads or cheap ball heads or light fittings. I'm tempted to suggest if all else fails even a 1/4-inch 20tpi UNC is pretty close, but it's a slightly different thread form and could damage the camera if overtightened. > did you notice the qty in my other reply, > 6k fiche say 71 images per fiche if we take the rrd53 as an average > and 8 secs per image > 3408000 seconds of peering down the eyepiece getting backache So finding some way to keep the camera still, at a constant distance from the fiche, etc is essential :-) If the fiche is on a lightbox or something similar, tape a strip of plastic or wood onto the box, and slide the fiche along that to move from frame to frame. At least it will keep it straight and and you only have to worry about one dimension (X) instead of three (X, Y, camera distance). Low tech and easy. Of course the plastic strip needs moved for each new row on the fiche, but a little ingenuity and several narrow strips solve that. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jul 5 18:13:13 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2011 00:13:13 +0100 Subject: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <20110705155415.R67674@shell.lmi.net> References: <4E123648.4060408@dunnington.plus.com> <20110705224410.GA8876@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20110705155415.R67674@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E139A89.7060703@dunnington.plus.com> On 05/07/2011 23:56, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> , etc. So I would not have assuemd thatr digital SLRs >>> would allow me to do everytthing my 50-year-old Exakta Varex will do. > > On Wed, 6 Jul 2011, Alexander Schreiber wrote: >> A good DSLR should allow you to do that. > > specifically, which ones permit you to remove the pentaprism for "waist > level": view of the ground glass? Digital Mamiya 645s do :-) In fact most medium-format digitals do (though they're arguably film cameras with digital backs) And an angle finder does almost the same job (not quite, I admit). But how many 35mm film cameras did? An Exacta, a couple of Nikons, and not many others. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From lynchaj at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 19:30:13 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 20:30:13 -0400 Subject: free/open source PCB autorouter software development Message-ID: Copied from KiCAD-users mailing list. Hobbyists have long needed a free/open source PCB autorouter for their EDA tool suites. One is now in development. Please support this project. This is not my project but one I strongly believe is very good for EDA hobbyists. Certainly useful for KiCAD and maybe gEDA as well. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi All, I'm working on a project here http://sourceforge.net/projects/qautorouter/ It is an auto-router that is written in C++ on Qt application framework, reads/writes specctra file format and uses a plug-in style of interface for the router engines. It is very alpha at this stage, I have much of the UI, file I/O, and the plug-in API operational. I am working on a "Simple Router" plug-in at the moment that is implementing a simplified version of the expanding box algorithm. The Simple Router will be used as a sort of template for debugging the plugin-api and as a template for developing more sophisticated plug-ins. Toporouter would be a good one. In any case, it would be great to get a few other people on-board, a developer or two that is quite proficient in C++ would be very helpful, some hands-on with Qt would help a lot too. Someone to look after the Windows(tm) and Mac OS-X build and release would be very helpful. Someone to help with packaging; windows installer, Mac OSX installer, and linux .deb, .rpm packages would be helpful as well. If you're interested, please just send me a little about what you can contribute, and your sourceforge id. Kind Regards, Mike Sharkey -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJOEAlnAAoJEEzVYN3s3Af7lqIIALSmDzQGxAjYBIcZsAcjw++D gw8LQAvUytUY+4xX6kVkdeA+wjvywZw0+OZKoZXeOjvY39ZNMayKvzWN4zBoUjbc YMSx9wZ7j6QYU9EBh25hpyGmMg97L5XubY/6zRV/xkvSs9qm8/gMyayBBVBU0sMM 43blOHuELx5WYsFS2uyz/WLWE8vdpxWnDpsqfxOvp2aaRZzzEzvuP5rnj7XTN9KV TCFe+vT/auZZIEfKzGe9lYLMHgBpccBCr0IYOiRRS3LuCytTTnoscTdzXCiTX1sE iNBJqbMHjrb64oOs+6P4x10gOSQB8rSRmFOlpQG8puNk7ZRh6ggFxgRTzYM3oZc= =abfU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragooman at gmail.com Tue Jul 5 19:58:48 2011 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 20:58:48 -0400 Subject: free/open source PCB autorouter software development In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 8:30 PM, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Copied from KiCAD-users mailing list. Hobbyists have long needed a > free/open source PCB autorouter for their EDA tool suites. One is now in > development. Please support this project. This is not my project but one > I > strongly believe is very good for EDA hobbyists. Certainly useful for > KiCAD > and maybe gEDA as well. > > Hi Andrew, There's this one for gEDA which has been around for several years. PCB, http://pcb.gpleda.org/news.html And it's available on sourceforge, http://sourceforge.net/projects/pcb/ And you can track the progress here, https://launchpad.net/pcb/ Why reinvent the wheel ?? They could probably use more coders to support this. =Dan From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 5 22:57:07 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2011 23:57:07 -0400 Subject: Titan IV Missile Test Equipment In-Reply-To: <1309903651.92907.YahooMailClassic@web29616.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <1309903651.92907.YahooMailClassic@web29616.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E13DD13.7070503@neurotica.com> On 07/05/2011 06:07 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: >> If you forget to open the valve prior to take-off, they > get darn >> uncomfortable at altitude, and there's so much pressure that > the valve >> sticks (I tried it once intentionally, to see how much they > swelled >> up, and I didn't last until cruising altitude). > > Why a valve and not a hole? Surely if it had holes you wouldn't > need to > worry about opening it? Or are there times when you need the valve > closed? Water exposure comes to mind. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From alexeyt at freeshell.org Tue Jul 5 23:20:43 2011 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 04:20:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Titan IV Missile Test Equipment In-Reply-To: <4E13DD13.7070503@neurotica.com> References: <1309903651.92907.YahooMailClassic@web29616.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <4E13DD13.7070503@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jul 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 07/05/2011 06:07 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: >>> If you forget to open the valve prior to take-off, they >> get darn >>> uncomfortable at altitude, and there's so much pressure that >> the valve >>> sticks (I tried it once intentionally, to see how much they >> swelled >>> up, and I didn't last until cruising altitude). >> >> Why a valve and not a hole? Surely if it had holes you wouldn't >> need to >> worry about opening it? Or are there times when you need the valve >> closed? > > Water exposure comes to mind. More importantly, if the hole was open when you're stomping around then air would leave every time you put weight on that foot and come back in when you took weight off of it, partly defeating the purpose of the air insulation. Walking on air has its downsides though: you have all the grace of someone walking around on giant, heavy marshmallows. Alexey From jthecman at aim.com Tue Jul 5 19:54:04 2011 From: jthecman at aim.com (jthecman at aim.com) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2011 20:54:04 -0400 Subject: Still Looking for Help in UT Message-ID: <8CE098E565CBF4E-189C-45C67@Webmail-d125.sysops.aol.com> Hello I will be in Salt Lake City on Thursday July 7th to pick up and move ATEX computer rack system to Public Storage for now. If you can spare 30 minutes or an hour of your time please contact me by email. John From rollerton at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 00:23:42 2011 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 22:23:42 -0700 Subject: Still Looking for Help in UT In-Reply-To: <8CE098E565CBF4E-189C-45C67@Webmail-d125.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE098E565CBF4E-189C-45C67@Webmail-d125.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: hi john, Im in AZ for a few weeks - hope the move goes well and you get some help. I still have some 10-15 year old compaq and sun servers for you. bob. On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 5:54 PM, wrote: > Hello > I will be in Salt Lake City on Thursday July 7th to pick up and move ATEX > computer rack system to Public Storage for now. If you can spare 30 minutes > or an hour of your time please contact me by email. > John > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 6 01:36:13 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2011 02:36:13 -0400 Subject: free/open source PCB autorouter software development In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E14025D.9010401@neurotica.com> On 7/5/11 8:58 PM, Dan Roganti wrote: >> Copied from KiCAD-users mailing list. Hobbyists have long needed a >> free/open source PCB autorouter for their EDA tool suites. One is now in >> development. Please support this project. This is not my project but one >> I >> strongly believe is very good for EDA hobbyists. Certainly useful for >> KiCAD >> and maybe gEDA as well. > > There's this one for gEDA which has been around for several years. > PCB, http://pcb.gpleda.org/news.html > And it's available on sourceforge, http://sourceforge.net/projects/pcb/ > And you can track the progress here, https://launchpad.net/pcb/ > Why reinvent the wheel ?? > They could probably use more coders to support this. That's the one I've been using for about eight years now. It is excellent. I've done several commercial projects with it, as well as personal stuff. It is undergoing extremely fast-paced development. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 02:58:06 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 08:58:06 +0100 Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <4E1398F0.6070805@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4E123648.4060408@dunnington.plus.com> <20110704153355.H24598@shell.lmi.net> <4E12C568.2010406@dunnington.plus.com> <4E1398F0.6070805@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: Did you not see http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/fiche_experiments/50mm_on_stand/p1010114.jpg as you are still trying to explain a method of holding the camera proper fiche holder with el backlight and camera mounted on copy stand only loose ish item is mid lens but gravity keeps it still Dave Caroline On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 12:06 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 05/07/2011 09:30, Dave Caroline wrote: > >> no one image at a time not the whole fiche! > > My mistake, somehow I thought you were trying to do one fiche in one go! > >> I have just done most of one fiche the >> squint down the eyepiece >> move fiche to fit >> press button see if it can focus, repeat move till focus got >> take pic hold >> still 4 secs >> is a crap user experience! > > That I believe :-) ?But I'm sure you can rig up something to hold the camera > still and in a fixed position relative to the fiche, also held still and > flat. ?Even a wooden frame if you don't have a suitable tripod that can look > straight down onto fiche on a makeshift lightbox. ?The tripod screw on any > standard small-format camera or DSLR is a 1/4-inch Whitworth thread, and > although that's not a common size in the States (other than camera shops), > camera shops and secondhand shops here often have odd tripod screws as > spares or off surplus pan/tilt heads or cheap ball heads or light fittings. > ?I'm tempted to suggest if all else fails even a 1/4-inch 20tpi UNC is > pretty close, but it's a slightly different thread form and could damage the > camera if overtightened. > >> did you notice the qty in my other reply, >> 6k fiche say 71 images per fiche if we take the rrd53 as an average >> and 8 secs per image >> 3408000 seconds of peering down the eyepiece getting backache > > So finding some way to keep the camera still, at a constant distance from > the fiche, etc is essential :-) see above picture > > If the fiche is on a lightbox or something similar, tape a strip of plastic > or wood onto the box, and slide the fiche along that to move from frame to > frame. ?At least it will keep it straight and and you only have to worry > about one dimension (X) instead of three (X, Y, camera distance). ?Low tech > and easy. ?Of course the plastic strip needs moved for each new row on the > fiche, but a little ingenuity and several narrow strips solve that. see above comment and picture > > -- > Pete ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Peter Turnbull > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Network Manager > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?University of York > From vintagecoder at aol.com Wed Jul 6 08:31:43 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 13:31:43 +0000 Subject: Looking for a copy of Sun's RISC Tutorial Message-ID: <334893885-1309959097-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1231990466-@b2.c1.bise3.blackberry> If you have a copy of this, or a download link, I would appreciate it. Thanks. From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jul 6 09:29:38 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2011 09:29:38 -0500 Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <4E137A30.8030305@bitsavers.org> References: <5CFC6311D1D14FA0A524D2EC3C994758@ANTONIOPC> <4E137A30.8030305@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <201107061434.p66EY3pt035862@billy.ezwind.net> At 03:55 PM 7/5/2011, Al Kossow wrote: >To be honest, if you're doing DEC fiche, just get a service bureau to scan >it. This assumes you can find someone competent to handle scanning it correctly. At 03:23 PM 7/5/2011, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: >I've spent a few days idly wandering the web looking at various >scanners. No doubt these will (one day) be dirt cheap [1] but right >now a decent solution looks like it is in the $10K-$15K ball park. >(That's for a ScanPro 2000, but there are various similar systems >for about the same price). Wouldn't any university- or state-class library have a digital fiche scanner? I believe my state historical society had a very good one even a few years ago. Might they let a hobbyist use it to save scans to a thumb drive? Even at a buck a page, it would take you a while to get to $15K. - John From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 09:57:01 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 15:57:01 +0100 Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <201107061434.p66EY3pt035862@billy.ezwind.net> References: <5CFC6311D1D14FA0A524D2EC3C994758@ANTONIOPC> <4E137A30.8030305@bitsavers.org> <201107061434.p66EY3pt035862@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Did you read the comment in one of these threads where I stated Im out of a job paying is not an option Dave Caroline On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 3:29 PM, John Foust wrote: > At 03:55 PM 7/5/2011, Al Kossow wrote: >>To be honest, if you're doing DEC fiche, just get a service bureau to scan >>it. This assumes you can find someone competent to handle scanning it correctly. > > At 03:23 PM 7/5/2011, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: >>I've spent a few days idly wandering the web looking at various >>scanners. No doubt these will (one day) be dirt cheap [1] but right >>now a decent solution looks like it is in the $10K-$15K ball park. >>(That's for a ScanPro 2000, but there are various similar systems >>for about the same price). > > > Wouldn't any university- or state-class library have a digital > fiche scanner? ?I believe my state historical society had a very > good one even a few years ago. > > Might they let a hobbyist use it to save scans to a thumb drive? > Even at a buck a page, it would take you a while to get to $15K. > > - John > > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jul 6 09:57:44 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2011 07:57:44 -0700 Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <201107061434.p66EY3pt035862@billy.ezwind.net> References: <5CFC6311D1D14FA0A524D2EC3C994758@ANTONIOPC> <4E137A30.8030305@bitsavers.org> <201107061434.p66EY3pt035862@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4E1477E8.1090103@bitsavers.org> On 7/6/11 7:29 AM, John Foust wrote: > Might they let a hobbyist use it to save scans to a thumb drive? > Even at a buck a page, it would take you a while to get to $15K. > Assuming your time is free. I spent that much assuming it would have been a load a stack and walk away operation. It's not. With DEC 48X manuals fiche, you have to set the step and repeat to overscan, then crop in postprocessing. COM listings aren't as bad, fortunately, since the bulk of the 11 10 and VAX fiche I have are listings of some form and were machine generated the positioning is very accurate. Also, at that high a magnification, sheet positioning is extremely critical since the horizontal gap is so small. A buck a page for a full sheet of 48X COM output would be a good deal if you could get it through a service bureau for 300 or 400 equivalent DPI. There are over 100 pages/sheet at 48X. From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jul 6 10:24:12 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2011 10:24:12 -0500 Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: References: <5CFC6311D1D14FA0A524D2EC3C994758@ANTONIOPC> <4E137A30.8030305@bitsavers.org> <201107061434.p66EY3pt035862@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <201107061525.p66FPGJh037833@billy.ezwind.net> At 09:57 AM 7/6/2011, Dave Caroline wrote: >Did you read the comment in one of these threads where I stated Im out of a job >paying is not an option Maybe you can get a job at the library, scanning fiche for people. - John From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 10:30:06 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 16:30:06 +0100 Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <201107061525.p66FPGJh037833@billy.ezwind.net> References: <5CFC6311D1D14FA0A524D2EC3C994758@ANTONIOPC> <4E137A30.8030305@bitsavers.org> <201107061434.p66EY3pt035862@billy.ezwind.net> <201107061525.p66FPGJh037833@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Are you taking the P In this country they are closing libraries and archives to save money Dave Caroline On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 4:24 PM, John Foust wrote: > At 09:57 AM 7/6/2011, Dave Caroline wrote: >>Did you read the comment in one of these threads where I stated Im out of a job >>paying is not an option > > > Maybe you can get a job at the library, scanning fiche for people. > > - John > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jul 6 10:45:35 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2011 09:45:35 -0600 Subject: free/open source PCB autorouter software development In-Reply-To: <4E14025D.9010401@neurotica.com> References: <4E14025D.9010401@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E14831F.50100@jetnet.ab.ca> On 7/6/2011 12:36 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > That's the one I've been using for about eight years now. It is > excellent. I've done several commercial projects with it, as well as > personal stuff. It is undergoing extremely fast-paced development. > It is not PCB software you buy, but the user libraries of components. > -Dave > Ben. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 6 10:53:26 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2011 11:53:26 -0400 Subject: free/open source PCB autorouter software development In-Reply-To: <4E14831F.50100@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4E14025D.9010401@neurotica.com> <4E14831F.50100@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4E1484F6.6010203@neurotica.com> On 07/06/2011 11:45 AM, ben wrote: >> That's the one I've been using for about eight years now. It is >> excellent. I've done several commercial projects with it, as well as >> personal stuff. It is undergoing extremely fast-paced development. > > It is not PCB software you buy, but the user libraries of components. Uh, no. PCB layout software is actually fairly complex, by necessity. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jul 6 11:07:38 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2011 10:07:38 -0600 Subject: free/open source PCB autorouter software development In-Reply-To: <4E1484F6.6010203@neurotica.com> References: <4E14025D.9010401@neurotica.com> <4E14831F.50100@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E1484F6.6010203@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E14884A.2090402@jetnet.ab.ca> On 7/6/2011 9:53 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Uh, no. PCB layout software is actually fairly complex, by necessity. I think it is the other way myself, you add all the features that you think is needed to sell a product. How often is N'th decimal place track size and grid needed when 99% of the time you work with grids 1/10 of a inch. Note I have been doing digital not analog work. The PCB program I use ( older version) can't even autoroute since it wants to run minimum routing rules. The real way to route would be different algorithm not yet found. Ben. > -Dave > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 6 11:23:08 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2011 12:23:08 -0400 Subject: free/open source PCB autorouter software development In-Reply-To: <4E14884A.2090402@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4E14025D.9010401@neurotica.com> <4E14831F.50100@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E1484F6.6010203@neurotica.com> <4E14884A.2090402@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4E148BEC.2070403@neurotica.com> On 7/6/11 12:07 PM, ben wrote: >> Uh, no. PCB layout software is actually fairly complex, by necessity. > > I think it is the other way myself, you add all the features that you > think is needed > to sell a product. That may be, but that doesn't imply simplicity. PCB layout, except for the simplest of newbie projects, is a complex task. > How often is N'th decimal place track size and grid > needed when 99% of the time you work with grids 1/10 of a inch. Note I > have been doing digital not analog Wow, no. I haven't seen a 0.1"-grid-based PCB layout since I was a kid. My layouts are not particularly dense, and my grids are typically set to 0.005" or 0.001". > work. The PCB program I use ( older version) can't even autoroute since > it wants to run > minimum routing rules. The real way to route would be different > algorithm not yet found. This is definitely a problem. Good autorouters are few and far between. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jul 6 11:36:22 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2011 10:36:22 -0600 Subject: free/open source PCB autorouter software development In-Reply-To: <4E148BEC.2070403@neurotica.com> References: <4E14025D.9010401@neurotica.com> <4E14831F.50100@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E1484F6.6010203@neurotica.com> <4E14884A.2090402@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E148BEC.2070403@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E148F06.4050509@jetnet.ab.ca> On 7/6/2011 10:23 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Wow, no. I haven't seen a 0.1"-grid-based PCB layout since I was a kid. > My layouts are not particularly dense, and my grids are typically set to > 0.005" or 0.001". Oops. I was thinking pads here. Really most of the lines need to avoid pads and via's. > >> work. The PCB program I use ( older version) can't even autoroute since >> it wants to run >> minimum routing rules. The real way to route would be different >> algorithm not yet found. > > This is definitely a problem. Good autorouters are few and far between. Yep, that is why I still need to manual route. Audio projects have kept me from digital work, so maybe NEXT year I'll build a 12/36 bit CPU*. I want to have music while my hearing is still good. :) > -Dave > Ben. * PS. I better hurry while my vision is good so I can see the IC's^H^H^H^HTransistors on the PCB. :) From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 11:44:55 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 11:44:55 -0500 Subject: sperry-univac stuff Message-ID: stuff theres racks side panels random filters parts no boards though case screws and other random hardware some of the stuff is being tossed if anyones interested in any of it let me know i will get some pics in the next few days my batteries were dead last night on the camera i rescued a couple things like highdesity double sided floppies going to go through them and see what software if any is on them that might be worth archiving and some 5 1/4 in floppy head cleaner disks new sealed 3M and some cases also found this random plate http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/6876/pic002sc.jpg From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 11:50:55 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 12:50:55 -0400 Subject: sperry-univac stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > stuff theres racks side panels random filters parts no boards though case > ? screws and other random hardware some of the stuff is being tossed if > ? anyones interested in any of it let me know i will get some pics in the > next > ? few days my batteries were dead last night on the camera > ? i rescued a couple things like highdesity double sided floppies going to > go > ? through them and see what software if any is on them that might be worth > ? archiving and some 5 1/4 in floppy head cleaner disks new sealed 3M and > some > ? cases > ? also found this random plate > ? http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/6876/pic002sc.jpg Punctuation and grammar. Please look into these concepts. They are important. -- Will From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jul 6 12:01:36 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 10:01:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: sperry-univac stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Jul 2011, William Donzelli wrote: >> stuff theres racks side panels random filters parts no boards though case >> ? screws and other random hardware some of the stuff is being tossed if >> ? anyones interested in any of it let me know i will get some pics in the >> next >> ? few days my batteries were dead last night on the camera >> ? i rescued a couple things like highdesity double sided floppies going to >> go >> ? through them and see what software if any is on them that might be worth >> ? archiving and some 5 1/4 in floppy head cleaner disks new sealed 3M and >> some >> ? cases >> ? also found this random plate >> ? http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/6876/pic002sc.jpg > > Punctuation and grammar. Please look into these concepts. They are > important. +9999999 g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From ragooman at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 12:03:42 2011 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 13:03:42 -0400 Subject: free/open source PCB autorouter software development In-Reply-To: <4E148F06.4050509@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4E14025D.9010401@neurotica.com> <4E14831F.50100@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E1484F6.6010203@neurotica.com> <4E14884A.2090402@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E148BEC.2070403@neurotica.com> <4E148F06.4050509@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 12:36 PM, ben wrote: > On 7/6/2011 10:23 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Wow, no. I haven't seen a 0.1"-grid-based PCB layout since I was a kid. >> My layouts are not particularly dense, and my grids are typically set to >> 0.005" or 0.001". >> > > Oops. I was thinking pads here. Really most of the lines need to avoid > pads and via's. > > I think it also depends on the component packages you like to use. When you dealing with many BGA components, you like to have an autorouter which can support 45deg routing on single traces. It'll save on layers, let alone save your project. I'm still trying to find out if the gEDA PCB can support this. Plus with differential signaling very common on FPGA's now, it's nice to have one that supports 45 deg routing of differential pairs. =Dan From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 6 12:05:47 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2011 10:05:47 -0700 Subject: free/open source PCB autorouter software development In-Reply-To: <4E1484F6.6010203@neurotica.com> References: , <4E14831F.50100@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4E1484F6.6010203@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E14337B.21409.EC8CD2@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Jul 2011 at 11:53, Dave McGuire wrote: > Uh, no. PCB layout software is actually fairly complex, by > necessity. PCB layout, no matter the toolset, is one task I loathe. Mentally, it isn't any easier for me using an EDA package than it was in the days of mylar sheet, tape and india ink. Perhaps I lack a certain capability of visualization. I'm lousy at untangling granny knots from balls of twine as well. My hat's off to those who can do this sort of thing almost second- naturedly. --Chuck From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 12:06:26 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 12:06:26 -0500 Subject: sperry-univac stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: i hate my brain sometimes From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jul 6 12:05:17 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2011 18:05:17 +0100 Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: References: <4E123648.4060408@dunnington.plus.com> <20110704153355.H24598@shell.lmi.net> <4E12C568.2010406@dunnington.plus.com> <4E1398F0.6070805@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4E1495CD.30302@dunnington.plus.com> On 06/07/2011 08:58, Dave Caroline wrote: > Did you not see > http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/fiche_experiments/50mm_on_stand/p1010114.jpg No, I didn't. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jul 6 14:21:59 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2011 20:21:59 +0100 Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <4E1495CD.30302@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4E123648.4060408@dunnington.plus.com> <20110704153355.H24598@shell.lmi.net> <4E12C568.2010406@dunnington.plus.com> <4E1398F0.6070805@dunnington.plus.com> <4E1495CD.30302@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4E14B5D7.6050908@dunnington.plus.com> On 06/07/2011 18:05, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > On 06/07/2011 08:58, Dave Caroline wrote: >> Did you not see >> http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/fiche_experiments/50mm_on_stand/p1010114.jpg >> > > No, I didn't. Oh dear, that reads as very abrupt. What I really meant was that it got lost in the noise, possibly because I wasn't reading carefully enough. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 6 12:48:22 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 18:48:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <20110705224410.GA8876@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> from "Alexander Schreiber" at Jul 6, 11 00:44:10 am Message-ID: > Well, the compact digital cameras usually target the point&shoot market. True :-( > While they may have computationally expensive features like face detection, > smile detection, ... they tend to aim for a rather simple user interface > and usually omit anything the casual (not even hobby) photographer usually > doesn't need. Yeahbut eve some of myu cheaper film cameras have filter mounts and cable release sockets. But I guess filters are less important on point-n-shoot cameras than they used to be (you don't need the well-known yellow filter [1] to enhace the clound effects on black-and-white film with a digital camera, you don't need colour correction filters, at least not in a point-n-shoot) [1] Whichewas even built in to some box camers with a sliding control to move it into the light path. > > cable release sockets, > check, currently via a Canon cable release and a GPS interface module, but > I'm sure Nikon has something appropriate Do any DSLRs have a standard rather han a propriatray connection for this? > > > flash sync contacts > check, while it has its own surprisingly useful popup flash, it does have > the mount & contacts for a proper flash unit > > >, etc. So I would not have assuemd thatr digital SLRs > > would allow me to do everytthing my 50-year-old Exakta Varex will do. > > A good DSLR should allow you to do that. What, including interchangeable finders, flashbulb synchronisation, etc :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 6 12:52:07 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 18:52:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <20110705155415.R67674@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jul 5, 11 03:56:11 pm Message-ID: > > > >, etc. So I would not have assuemd thatr digital SLRs > > > would allow me to do everytthing my 50-year-old Exakta Varex will do. > > On Wed, 6 Jul 2011, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > > A good DSLR should allow you to do that. > > specifically, which ones permit you to remove the pentaprism for "waist > level": view of the ground glass? A 'Blad with a digital back? More seriously, are there any DSLRs of about the same size and form factor as a normal 35mm SLR that have interchanagealbe finders? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 6 12:50:18 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 18:50:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <4E139480.6000405@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jul 5, 11 11:47:28 pm Message-ID: > > On 05/07/2011 21:48, Tony Duell wrote: > >> You'd need an awfully high-res sensor to do that! Back-of-envelope > > > What is the resolution of the digital 5*4 backs that I am told are now > > avaialble? I susepct rather less than that,. > > 20-100 megapixels. And priced accordingly. Which is, I suspect, rather less than the resolution of fine-grain sheet film... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 6 13:22:01 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 19:22:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <4E139A89.7060703@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jul 6, 11 00:13:13 am Message-ID: > And an angle finder does almost the same job (not quite, I admit). But > how many 35mm film cameras did? An Exacta, a couple of Nikons, and not > many others. Off the top of my head, and ignoring camras like that older Prakticas that had a built0in waist level find and a clip-on pentaprism option that fitted into the hood of the waist level finder... Nikon F, F2, etc; Canon F1, etc; Exakta Varex. Exa 1, Exakta RTL1000; Paktica VCL (and later models in that series). Miranda Sensorex, etc. Pnetax LX (I think); Start; at least one Zeise COnsarex (not the Bullseye one); Leica Visoflex attachment for rangefinder cameras; etc. And therre's even the 16mm film Narciss. -tony From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jul 6 15:21:41 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 13:21:41 -0700 Subject: B-29 analog computer In-Reply-To: References: <5CFC6311D1D14FA0A524D2EC3C994758@ANTONIOPC>, <4E137A30.8030305@bitsavers.org>, <201107061434.p66EY3pt035862@billy.ezwind.net>, Message-ID: Hi I was looking at ebay#270776716752 and was wondering, was this a bomb, fire control computer or what? It looks cool but already out of my price range. Dwight From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 6 15:40:08 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 13:40:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: References: <5CFC6311D1D14FA0A524D2EC3C994758@ANTONIOPC> <4E137A30.8030305@bitsavers.org> <201107061434.p66EY3pt035862@billy.ezwind.net> <201107061525.p66FPGJh037833@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20110706133917.Y1817@shell.lmi.net> > > Maybe you can get a job at the library, scanning fiche for people. On Wed, 6 Jul 2011, Dave Caroline wrote: > Are you taking the P > In this country they are closing libraries and archives to save money onlyt because they've never realized how much money they culd be making by scanning fiche! From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Wed Jul 6 16:07:50 2011 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 16:07:50 -0500 Subject: B-29 analog computer In-Reply-To: References: <5CFC6311D1D14FA0A524D2EC3C994758@ANTONIOPC>, <4E137A30.8030305@bitsavers.org>, <201107061434.p66EY3pt035862@billy.ezwind.net>, Message-ID: <3E46B431-F1C0-4B77-B131-2279AE074CD7@lunar-tokyo.net> On Jul 6, 2011, at 3:21 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > I was looking at ebay#270776716752 and was wondering, was this a bomb, fire control > computer or what? > It looks cool but already out of my price range. > Dwight Fire control part. It was used for parallax correction in the remote-controlled turret system. From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jul 6 16:30:14 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 22:30:14 +0100 Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <20110706133917.Y1817@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <7702F3209FA34148A684BE79EC2A1429@ANTONIOPC> Fred Cisin [cisin at xenosoft.com] wrote: >>> Maybe you can get a job at the library, scanning fiche for people. > > On Wed, 6 Jul 2011, Dave Caroline wrote: >> Are you taking the P >> In this country they are closing libraries and archives to save money > > onlyt because they've never realized how much money they culd be > making by scanning fiche! Hmm. Maybe I can pick up a fiche scanner at a fire sale :-) From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jul 6 16:44:40 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 22:44:40 +0100 Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <4E1477E8.1090103@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <934C3A3AB78A415EBF797C1D8F63D31D@ANTONIOPC> Al Kossow [aek at bitsavers.org] wrote: > On 7/6/11 7:29 AM, John Foust wrote: > >> Might they let a hobbyist use it to save scans to a thumb drive? Even >> at a buck a page, it would take you a while to get to $15K. >> > > Assuming your time is free. > > A buck a page for a full sheet of 48X COM output would be a > good deal if you could get it through a service bureau for > 300 or 400 equivalent DPI. There are over 100 pages/sheet at 48X. I think I probably have 10,000 sheets of fiche. If I wanted to scan all of it then ther per-fiche price doesn't have to be very much before buying a scanner (even a mostly-manual one like a ScanPro) looks pretty attractive. Obviously I need to be willing to spend a large chunk of change (which I'm not) and to spend literally years in front of a machine to scan everything (not keen on that either). Luckily I just have to wait a while. I remember when a MicroVAX II cost ?20K and I have one of those so surely the economics are on my side :-) (If not, I just need to wait for Dave to perfect his technique and then replicate ...) Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From als at thangorodrim.de Wed Jul 6 16:30:17 2011 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 23:30:17 +0200 Subject: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: References: <20110705224410.GA8876@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <20110706213017.GA19388@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Wed, Jul 06, 2011 at 06:48:22PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > Well, the compact digital cameras usually target the point&shoot market. > > True :-( > > While they may have computationally expensive features like face detection, > > smile detection, ... they tend to aim for a rather simple user interface > > and usually omit anything the casual (not even hobby) photographer usually > > doesn't need. > > > Yeahbut eve some of myu cheaper film cameras have filter mounts and cable > release sockets. But I guess filters are less important on point-n-shoot > cameras than they used to be (you don't need the well-known yellow filter > [1] to enhace the clound effects on black-and-white film with a digital > camera, you don't need colour correction filters, at least not in a > point-n-shoot) So far, the only two filters I've got for my DSLR are a polarized filter and a simple highly transmissive UV filter. The later is pretty much permanently mounted with it's primary duty to protect the lens against dirt, water, scratches ... UV filters (even the good ones) are cheap, lenses aren't. > > >, etc. So I would not have assuemd thatr digital SLRs > > > would allow me to do everytthing my 50-year-old Exakta Varex will do. > > > > A good DSLR should allow you to do that. > > What, including interchangeable finders, flashbulb synchronisation, etc :-) Flash sync - sure, that is pretty much standard. Depending on manufacturer, there are various more or less capable and complex flash systems one can setup. Interchangeable finders, hmm, probably not so. However, if Nikon/Canon can't deliver what you want, I'm sure Hasselblad probably can. But then you are entering "If you have to ask for the price, you can't afford it" territory ;-) Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From lynchaj at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 18:03:13 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 16:03:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: free-open source PCB autorouter software development Message-ID: <1309993393.25002.YahooMailClassic@web180210.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 8:30 PM, Andrew Lynch > wrote: > Copied from KiCAD-users mailing list. Hobbyists have long needed a > free/open source PCB autorouter for their EDA tool suites. One is now in > development. Please support this project. This is not my project but one > I > strongly believe is very good for EDA hobbyists. Certainly useful for > KiCAD > and maybe gEDA as well. > > Hi Andrew, There's this one for gEDA which has been around for several years. PCB, http://pcb.gpleda.org/news.html And it's available on sourceforge, http://sourceforge.net/projects/pcb/ And you can track the progress here, https://launchpad.net/pcb/ Why reinvent the wheel ?? They could probably use more coders to support this. =Dan -----REPLY----- Hi Dan, You've missed the point entirely. Yes, gEDA includes a PCB layout tool (PCB) which includes an autorouter. However, they are closely coupled and if you want to use the PCB autorouter you must start with gEDA EDA tool set and stay with it. There is no import/export capability so if you use KiCAD, FreePCB, EAGLE, etc then you are out of luck. This is the "lock in" which plagues the whole EDA technology because there are few if any interchange standards. There is no way to import/export PCBs in/out of gEDA AFAIK, at least from KiCAD. I can't tell if gEDA supports Specctra import/export necessary to use FreeRouting.net but doesn't appear so. QAutorouter is a *much* better approach of decoupling the autorouter from PCB layout tool. Any EDA tool set that can export Specctra DSN and import Specctra SES files can use QAutorouter. Also since it has an API which allows multiple different free/open source autorouters to "plug in" the hobbyists can potentially use MUCS-PCB, Topological Autorouter, the gEDA PCB autorouter, the KiCAD autorouter (yuck), or new autorouters. Really the PCB layout tool and the PCB autorouter are so different they *should* be separate tools. Integration just leads to yet more EDA "lock in". Personally, I won't even consider gEDA since I have 50+ complete boards in KiCAD format. KiCAD is not perfect by any stretch but it supports at least some level of EDA interchange standards (Specctra at least). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_EDA_software Thanks Andrew Lynch From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 18:09:29 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 19:09:29 -0400 Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <934C3A3AB78A415EBF797C1D8F63D31D@ANTONIOPC> References: <4E1477E8.1090103@bitsavers.org> <934C3A3AB78A415EBF797C1D8F63D31D@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: I have not been following this thread at all, so forgive me if I ask a question that has been answered already. Just how much good documentation is *only* available on fiche? -- Will From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jul 6 18:09:20 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2011 00:09:20 +0100 Subject: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <20110706213017.GA19388@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <20110705224410.GA8876@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20110706213017.GA19388@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4E14EB20.1000505@dunnington.plus.com> On 06/07/2011 22:30, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > On Wed, Jul 06, 2011 at 06:48:22PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >> What, including interchangeable finders, flashbulb synchronisation, etc :-) > > Flash sync - sure, that is pretty much standard. True, but only for X-sync, which is what's needed for electronic flash. Less likely to have FP or M sync for flashbulbs, which I bet is one of the things what Tony was thinking of, and in fact I don't think I've seen that on a DSLR. But then, modern DSLRs are designed to be used with modern electronic flash, not bulbs, which are fairly hard to find now. Ditto for a lot of reasonably modern (last few decades) film cameras, actually. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 18:32:44 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 00:32:44 +0100 Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: References: <4E1477E8.1090103@bitsavers.org> <934C3A3AB78A415EBF797C1D8F63D31D@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: We cannot know till we catalog and people search and find only the fiche copy Its most important that cataloging is done at an early stage and done well enough that it is findable, an ocr'd scan/photo or manually typed index of any docs that have faults in the part numbers will be hidden from all but the people who correctly mistype the part number Dave Caroline On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 12:09 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > I have not been following this thread at all, so forgive me if I ask a > question that has been answered already. > > Just how much good documentation is *only* available on fiche? > > -- > Will > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 6 19:21:45 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2011 17:21:45 -0700 Subject: free-open source PCB autorouter software development In-Reply-To: <1309993393.25002.YahooMailClassic@web180210.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1309993393.25002.YahooMailClassic@web180210.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E1499A9.5847.27BAECD@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Jul 2011 at 16:03, Andrew Lynch wrote: > You've missed the point entirely. Yes, gEDA includes a PCB layout > tool (PCB) which includes an autorouter. However, they are closely > coupled and if you want to use the PCB autorouter you must start with > gEDA EDA tool set and stay with it. Sigh. Music transcription software suffers the same sort of lock-in, but a modicum of progress has been made with the MusicXML approach. Unfortunately, add-ons/plugins for import and export to/from the notation packages are closed-source and often sold separately at ridiculous prices. With all of the time that EDA packages have been out, I don't understand why standard formats for netlist and BOM files haven't been developed that any autorouter can work from. For that matter, why couldn't any schematic capture work from the same two files? --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 6 19:23:12 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 17:23:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <4E14EB20.1000505@dunnington.plus.com> References: <20110705224410.GA8876@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20110706213017.GA19388@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4E14EB20.1000505@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20110706171300.E1817@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 7 Jul 2011, Pete Turnbull wrote: > True, but only for X-sync, which is what's needed for electronic flash. > Less likely to have FP or M sync for flashbulbs, which I bet is one of > the things what Tony was thinking of, and in fact I don't think I've > seen that on a DSLR. But then, modern DSLRs are designed to be used > with modern electronic flash, not bulbs, which are fairly hard to find > now. Ditto for a lot of reasonably modern (last few decades) film > cameras, actually. It is hard to find ANY flashbulbs, particularly #6 and #26. And I can not find ANY flash powder. So much for awesome night-time shots at Burning-Man. Time to learn some remedial chemistry. My digital camera doesn't even have a real cable release mount. But, I can get around that with a 4 conductor 2.5mm plug and a couple of resistors. I've played with the Focoslide a little, but just can't seem to come up with a need for the Visoflex. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 20:25:22 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 21:25:22 -0400 Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: References: <4E1477E8.1090103@bitsavers.org> <934C3A3AB78A415EBF797C1D8F63D31D@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: > We cannot know till we catalog and people search and find only the fiche copy > Its most important that cataloging is done at an early stage and done > well enough > that it is findable, an ocr'd scan/photo or manually typed index of > any docs that have > faults in the part numbers will be hidden from all but the people who > correctly mistype the part number I would think that everything available on fiche was originally, and more commonly, available on paper. How well the paper survived is a matter of discussion. -- Will From ragooman at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 21:08:13 2011 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 22:08:13 -0400 Subject: free-open source PCB autorouter software development In-Reply-To: <1309993393.25002.YahooMailClassic@web180210.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1309993393.25002.YahooMailClassic@web180210.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 7:03 PM, Andrew Lynch wrote: > > Hi Dan, > > You've missed the point entirely. Yes, gEDA includes a PCB layout tool > (PCB) which includes an autorouter. However, they are closely coupled and > if you want to use the PCB autorouter you must start with gEDA EDA tool set > and stay with it. Yes, this is true, something that's been typical of commercial/proprietary EDA vendors for several decades now - it always drives people nuts. > There is no import/export capability so if you use KiCAD, FreePCB, EAGLE, > etc then you are out of luck. This is the "lock in" which plagues the whole > EDA technology because there are few if any interchange standards. There is > no way to import/export PCBs in/out of gEDA AFAIK, at least from KiCAD. I > can't tell if gEDA supports Specctra import/export necessary to use > FreeRouting.net but doesn't appear so. > I'm all for standards, trust me on that. When you're designing with the abhorrent world of FPGA & CPLD EDA tools, you >>pray<< for standards !! However, since this is open source too - Lock-in is a state of mind - there is nothing preventing anyone from adding this import/export feature to gEDA PCB. I see already the Specctra format is available online http://www.autotraxeda.com/docs/SPECCTRA/SPECCTRA.pdf I see there were some attempts already by some people to add Specctra dsn exporting for gEDA PCB, so it's not a lost cause. http://archives.seul.org/geda/user/Jul-2009/msg00335.html http://archives.seul.org/geda/user/Jul-2009/msg00456.html > > QAutorouter is a *much* better approach of decoupling the autorouter from > PCB layout tool. Any EDA tool set that can export Specctra DSN and import > Specctra SES files can use QAutorouter. Also since it has an API which > allows multiple different free/open source autorouters to "plug in" the > hobbyists can potentially use MUCS-PCB, Topological Autorouter, the gEDA PCB > autorouter, the KiCAD autorouter (yuck), or new autorouters. Really the PCB > layout tool and the PCB autorouter are so different they *should* be > separate tools. Integration just leads to yet more EDA "lock in". > As long as it supports 45deg and Free angle routing :) You won't get very far when trying to autoroute a board using several FPGA's with BGA packages. > Personally, I won't even consider gEDA since I have 50+ complete boards in > KiCAD format. KiCAD is not perfect by any stretch but it supports at least > some level of EDA interchange standards (Specctra at least). > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_EDA_software > that webpage seems to be incomplete, It doesn't show how many of the open source eda tools support Specctra dsn/ses format. There's only _one_ mention of support for this. =Dan From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 6 22:39:14 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2011 23:39:14 -0400 Subject: free-open source PCB autorouter software development In-Reply-To: <1309993393.25002.YahooMailClassic@web180210.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1309993393.25002.YahooMailClassic@web180210.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E152A62.1030601@neurotica.com> On 7/6/11 7:03 PM, Andrew Lynch wrote: > You've missed the point entirely. Yes, gEDA includes a PCB layout > tool (PCB) which includes an autorouter. However, they are closely > coupled and if you want to use the PCB autorouter you must start with > gEDA EDA tool set and stay with it. This is not correct! While there is a well-developed integrative path between PCB and the gEDA suite, it is NOT necessary to do all of your schematics in gEDA in order to use PCB, nor is it necessary to use PCB for your board layouts if you use gEDA for schematics/BOM/etc. The program "PCB" is only very loosely associated with gEDA. Different authors/maintainers, different lineage, different original platforms (PCB started out as a program for the Atari ST many moons ago, if memory serves) etc etc. There is no import/export > capability so if you use KiCAD, FreePCB, EAGLE, etc then you are out > of luck. This is the "lock in" which plagues the whole EDA > technology because there are few if any interchange standards. There > is no way to import/export PCBs in/out of gEDA AFAIK, at least from > KiCAD. I can't tell if gEDA supports Specctra import/export > necessary to use FreeRouting.net but doesn't appear so. There's very little import/export functionality in stuff like this because there are no standard formats. gEDA's file format is purely text-based and was designed to be easily parsable, so if one can decipher the desired target format it should be possible to write an exporter. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 6 23:45:06 2011 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 23:45:06 -0500 Subject: free-open source PCB autorouter software development In-Reply-To: <4E152A62.1030601@neurotica.com> References: <1309993393.25002.YahooMailClassic@web180210.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <4E152A62.1030601@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 23:39:14 -0400 > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > To: > Subject: Re: free-open source PCB autorouter software development > > On 7/6/11 7:03 PM, Andrew Lynch wrote: > > You've missed the point entirely. Yes, gEDA includes a PCB layout > > tool (PCB) which includes an autorouter. However, they are closely > > coupled and if you want to use the PCB autorouter you must start with > > gEDA EDA tool set and stay with it. > > This is not correct! While there is a well-developed integrative > path between PCB and the gEDA suite, it is NOT necessary to do all of > your schematics in gEDA in order to use PCB, nor is it necessary to use > PCB for your board layouts if you use gEDA for schematics/BOM/etc. > > The program "PCB" is only very loosely associated with gEDA. > Different authors/maintainers, different lineage, different original > platforms (PCB started out as a program for the Atari ST many moons ago, > if memory serves) etc etc. > > There is no import/export > > capability so if you use KiCAD, FreePCB, EAGLE, etc then you are out > > of luck. This is the "lock in" which plagues the whole EDA > > technology because there are few if any interchange standards. There > > is no way to import/export PCBs in/out of gEDA AFAIK, at least from > > KiCAD. I can't tell if gEDA supports Specctra import/export > > necessary to use FreeRouting.net but doesn't appear so. > > There's very little import/export functionality in stuff like this > because there are no standard formats. gEDA's file format is purely > text-based and was designed to be easily parsable, so if one can > decipher the desired target format it should be possible to write an > exporter. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL With comments to the translation issue, and autorouters: Cooper and Chyan succeeded with their generic autorouter SPECCTRA by getting the major PCB EDA companies to adopt and contribute to their translation interface; a key part is the .DSN and .SES in and out formats. A layout package can only export a DSN, pre-route, and can only import a SES, post-route. With this limitation, it was adopted by all EDA companies. Otherwise, SPECCTRA could have become the pirenial hub-spoke system of EDA translation, and make all systems interoperable with a neutral database. Once you exported a DSN, why not allow a layout system to read it back in? Export from ORCAD a DSN, and import it into PADS / Expedition or your flavor of the month. >From an autorouting perspective, the translation problem is greatly simplified as it only knows copper shapes and layers, along with net names; it has no knowledge of the PCB database and related part and non electrical information. Cooper and Chyan are probably now bartenders in the Bahamas, they sold SPECCTRA to Cadence years ago. There are a few of us who truly know how to drive it - realizing that first of all it is not an autorouter, but a statistical constraint solver. it creates copper spaghetti at first, then resolves the constraints (a .DO file) with successive passes, increasing a 'tax' (don't do this) table to find a solution. I have done a hundred or more boards with this system with signals at GHz rates, diff pairs, crosstalk control, and they all worked straight out of the box. Do not discount the SPECCTRA autorouter, and the funny 90 degree bends and pad escapes, the boards work just fine. From tingox at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 06:40:20 2011 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 13:40:20 +0200 Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: References: <20110705103331.G58504@shell.lmi.net> <4E12F4BC.20432.6B0BA0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Hello, On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 9:55 PM, Dave Caroline wrote: > This evening I have had a google/look at available open software if > any for camera control For Canon cameras, look at CHDK: http://chdk.wikia.com/ CHDK on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHDK HTH -- Torfinn Ingolfsen From kstan53 at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 21:26:58 2011 From: kstan53 at gmail.com (Keith Stanley) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2011 21:26:58 -0500 Subject: Rescue of 3B1s in Chicago Area Message-ID: <4E151972.70701@gmail.com> All, I have rescued two 3B1s and there are more available. Please post here if you are interested. I would like to post in other forums like http://www.3b1.info/ but can't find out how to post. Thanks, Keith Stanley From wlsilva at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 6 23:12:28 2011 From: wlsilva at sbcglobal.net (walter silva) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 21:12:28 -0700 Subject: Looking for a Franklin high speed digital printer Message-ID: <53F5F157CB44439B87B8BCBE93F20495@walter> Hello. Looking for a Franklin high speed digital printer, these were made in the 1960's and early 1970's. The printer is a rack mount unit, and prints on adding machine width paper. If you know of one, or even any information or manuals I would be extremely grateful for the help! I have more information on the unit if anyone can help. Best regards :) Walter From leaknoil at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 00:33:17 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 22:33:17 -0700 Subject: Rescue of 3B1s in Chicago Area In-Reply-To: <4E151972.70701@gmail.com> References: <4E151972.70701@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9190FD86-C689-4F97-8578-F0A0292C7BE8@gmail.com> It's not a forum. It is just showing USENET posts and comes up for a lot of different searches. Some sort of cybersquating thing or who knows. I never enable scripts on it so, not sure what the deal is. I would probably avoid it though. It can come up for many google searches that get USENET hits for old computer groups. Always that same border but, with a totally different address, title, and showing a different USENET group. I have actually been curious what their deal is. It is registered to one guy that has 849 domains. Probably just a cybersquater that uses USENET to not make it look like it is. If you want to post to the actual old 3b1 USENET group go to google groups but, posting to this list is probably way better. USENET is pretty empty these days. On Jul 6, 2011, at 7:26 PM, Keith Stanley wrote: ve > > > I would like to post in other forums like > http://www.3b1.info/ > but can't find out how to post. > > Thanks, > Keith Stanley From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jul 7 02:41:46 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2011 08:41:46 +0100 Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: References: <20110705103331.G58504@shell.lmi.net> <4E12F4BC.20432.6B0BA0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E15633A.9020509@dunnington.plus.com> On 06/07/2011 12:40, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: > On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 9:55 PM, Dave Caroline > wrote: >> This evening I have had a google/look at available open software if >> any for camera control > > For Canon cameras, look at CHDK: http://chdk.wikia.com/ > CHDK on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHDK Getting a bit off topic, because it's not open source, and being Pentax-specific is hardly any use to Dave, but Pentax Remote Assistant allows fairly complete remote control over most Pentax DSLRs. http://www.pentaximaging.com/files/scms_docs/K20D_Remote_Assistant.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/dred242/2203339290/ I remember a series of pictures taken using a Pentax DSLR under program (well, interval timer) control from a sounding balloon at about 20 miles altitude: http://blog.flickr.net/en/2008/07/28/pentax-k10d-in-space/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/arena5/sets/72157606119049987/detail/ It's been done by others with different cameras (including a compact Canon, for example, from near here in Yorkshire) too. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Jul 7 03:27:13 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 09:27:13 +0100 Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: Message-ID: William Donzelli [wdonzelli at gmail.com] wrote (and quoted): >> We cannot know till we catalog and people search and find only the >> fiche copy Its most important that cataloging is done at an early >> stage and done well enough that it is findable, an ocr'd scan/photo >> or manually typed index of any docs that have >> faults in the part numbers will be hidden from all but the people who >> correctly mistype the part number > > I would think that everything available on fiche was > originally, and more commonly, available on paper. > > How well the paper survived is a matter of discussion. I'd agree that manuals on fiche (almost?) all existed as paper copies to start with. As for survival rates, I don't know. Most FS engineers would have had a copy of (some) fiche and the larger sites (PDP-10) would have had the relevant fiche available there too (according to one of the fiche guides I have). So where fiche has survived at all, then there is a set of manuals etc. that has quite probably survived intact. Paper manuals take a lot more storage and degrade more quickly so I'd expect those to be much more prone to head for recycling. As for accuracy of records, if people index what they have and make the list available then it becomes possible to compare records and spot anomalies (isn't that how Project Guttenburg does its proof-reading?). There are also index fiche which list the fiche in that library at that time: scanning and OCRing and proof-reading those is considerably less burdensome than scanning an entire library. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Jul 7 05:01:04 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 11:01:04 +0100 Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I wrote: > I'd agree that manuals on fiche (almost?) all existed as > paper copies to start with. Except for those that probably never did :-) For a start, diagnostics and source listings probably never existed on paper, although both would have existed as electronic copies. Diagnostics will have been available via the fiche libraries (I have a blue metal box with the FS VAX Diagnostic Listings, there will have been other libraries for minis and LCG at least). That's a huge a mount of stuff but hoepfully a fair chunk will have survived. Source listings for VMS were distributed with the OS until the V4.4 days (or thereabouts). I expect that amassing a complete set wouldn't be that hard. After that they transitioned to CD and there will be plenty of copies lying about. Source listings for other Oss may have been routinely distributed, but I don't know. (The Unix products may be a special case where this might not have been possible). Internally to DEC at least some products used to produce source listings on microfiche. There would typically have been only a few copies of those, so survival depends on how much of a packrat the group librarian might have been or how near someone might have been to the appropriate dumpster. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Jul 7 08:05:51 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2011 14:05:51 +0100 Subject: Rescue of 3B1s in Chicago Area In-Reply-To: <4E151972.70701@gmail.com> References: <4E151972.70701@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1310043951.25522.141.camel@ryoko> On Wed, 2011-07-06 at 21:26 -0500, Keith Stanley wrote: > All, > I have rescued two 3B1s and there are more available. > Please post here if you are interested. > I would like to post in other forums like > http://www.3b1.info/ > but can't find out how to post. I'm definitely interested! I'd love to get hold of a 3B1 to hook up on the bench and use to finish off the 3B1 Emulator. Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 7 11:21:57 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 09:21:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110707085842.L30658@shell.lmi.net> > I would think that everything available on fiche was > originally, and more commonly, available on paper. ALMOST. A long boring anecdote: In 1970, I worked for an on-site contractor at GSFC SSDC (Goddard Space Flight Center, Space Sciences Data Center, Bldg#26). One of the tasks that I was assigned was to rewrite a dozen CABINETS of punched cards of calcomp plotter (570?, 790?) programs to run on the Stromberg Carlson 4020 and Stromberg Data 4060. The Stromberg machines (in a building for which I didn't have clearance, and which I never physically saw) did direct output to 16mm and 35mm microfilm. I have no idea whether they had a fiche capability - my output arrived on 100 ft rolls of 16mm and 35mm B&W film. I was so lazy that instead of rewriting the software, I looked at the primitives that it called, and the primitives that that called, and the primitives that that called. When I got to the "bottom-most turtle" of the Calcomp library, I wrote a trivial SC/SD subroutine to do THAT (line segment, IIRC?). With the help of some of the other coders, I put together a small handful of 360 JCL to call the calcomp library AND the SC/SD library, but to call my subroutine instead of the Calcomp primitive subroutine. The entire room full of calcomp calling programs were working in weeks, instead of years. Since I was an on-site contractor, I received simultaneous commendations and reprimands. Nearly got a raise AND termination! Combined with many other "brownie points" from other peoples' work, the company was given a large bonus to distribute to the employees as they saw fit. If it were to have been equally distributed, it would have been almost a grand per employee. The company's algorithm for who got how much, netted me a frozen turkey for XMAS. I decided that disunirregardless of the current job situation, that it was time to move back to California. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 11:50:26 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 12:50:26 -0400 Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> I'd agree that manuals on fiche (almost?) all existed as >> paper copies to start with. > > Except for those that probably never did :-) I would think that with the information yield of fiche being so low, in light of much of it being alternatively available on paper or tape, it might not be worth screwing around with the stuff right now. Fiche is pretty stable stuff, so it can wait until a cheap fiche scanner shows up on the surplus market. The time may be better spent elsewhere. -- Will From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 12:49:42 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 18:49:42 +0100 Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Remember this thread started with needing the RD53 manual and I had it on fiche not paper the cataloging activity is the priority for paper and fiche. Dave Caroline On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 5:50 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> I'd agree that manuals on fiche (almost?) all existed as >>> paper copies to start with. >> >> Except for those that probably never did :-) > > I would think that with the information yield of fiche being so low, > in light of much of it being alternatively available on paper or tape, > it might not be worth screwing around with the stuff right now. Fiche > is pretty stable stuff, so it can wait until a cheap fiche scanner > shows up on the surplus market. The time may be better spent > elsewhere. > > -- > Will > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 7 13:05:50 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 19:05:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <20110706213017.GA19388@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> from "Alexander Schreiber" at Jul 6, 11 11:30:17 pm Message-ID: > So far, the only two filters I've got for my DSLR are a polarized filter > and a simple highly transmissive UV filter. The later is pretty much Which should strictly be called an IR-blocking filter I think. After all a 'yellow filter' passes yellow and attenuates other colours, so a 'UV filter' should pass UV (only). :-) > permanently mounted with it's primary duty to protect the lens against > dirt, water, scratches ... UV filters (even the good ones) are cheap, > lenses aren't. Sure. I keep a UV filter on any lenses that I am using. I can't afford to have them for all the odd lenses for even odder cameras that I've collected over the years. Yes, they;'re cheap, but not _that_ cheap :-) Thinking about it. I can see why those are about the only 2 filters you need. Colour correction can be done either in the camera ('white balance') or by processing the digital file. The effect of a cloured filter on B&W film can also be done by processign the digital file I would thinkg. And 'special effect filters' (aka 'image ruiners' :-)) can again be simulated by processing. And one great advantage of doing thati s you have the original unruined image too. But polarising filters make use of a property of the light (direction of the plane of polarisation) which is not recorded by the sensor, so the effect of such a filter cna't be simulated properly by manipulating the digital data. > > > > >, etc. So I would not have assuemd thatr digital SLRs > > > > would allow me to do everytthing my 50-year-old Exakta Varex will do. > > > > > > A good DSLR should allow you to do that. > > > > What, including interchangeable finders, flashbulb synchronisation, etc :-) > > Flash sync - sure, that is pretty much standard. Depending on manufacturer, No, I meant flach_bulb_ sync. As in M and FP sync. Where the sync contacts close early to give the flashbulb time to ignite. I was bing somewhat tongue-in-cheek here in that while many of my older film cameras have such synchronisation settings, I don't think I've ever used them. Flashbulbs are very dififcult to get now, and of course each bulb only works once. I am told, though, they were used until quite recently for specialised applciations simply because you can get a much greaer amount of light from one than from a portable battery-powered gas discharge flash unit. > there are various more or less capable and complex flash systems one > can setup. Interchangeable finders, hmm, probably not so. However, if > Nikon/Canon can't deliver what you want, I'm sure Hasselblad probably can. I did mention the 'Blad with a digital back as a possible solution to this :-). I was thinking more along the lines of something the size of a normal 35mm SLR though. > But then you are entering "If you have to ask for the price, you can't > afford it" territory ;-) Particularly for the digital back :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 7 13:12:42 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 19:12:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <4E14EB20.1000505@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jul 7, 11 00:09:20 am Message-ID: > > On 06/07/2011 22:30, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > > On Wed, Jul 06, 2011 at 06:48:22PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > >> What, including interchangeable finders, flashbulb synchronisation, etc :-) > > > > Flash sync - sure, that is pretty much standard. > > True, but only for X-sync, which is what's needed for electronic flash. > Less likely to have FP or M sync for flashbulbs, which I bet is one of Indeed I was :-). As I said, somewhat tongue-in-cheek. > the things what Tony was thinking of, and in fact I don't think I've > seen that on a DSLR. But then, modern DSLRs are designed to be used > with modern electronic flash, not bulbs, which are fairly hard to find This does not suprise me, and relaisitcally on the few times I use flash equipment, I do use gas-disharge flash, for obvious reasons. > now. Ditto for a lot of reasonably modern (last few decades) film > cameras, actually. Of course you van use flashbulbs on X sync provided you set slow enough shutter speed for the bulb to have ignited before the shutter closes .A lot of cmears with X-sync only tell you to set a speed of 1/30s or so. Then there are cameras, often leaf-shuttered (Compur, Prestor, etc) where you have choice of M or X xync, but if you want th self timer you have to select X sync. For a good reason/ The same escapement is used both for the self trimer delay and the sync delay in M sync mode. More of a problem are old cemaras with M sync only (yes, thye do exist, I am handling one right now, a VP Exakta). You can't use electornci flash ith those at _any_ speed, the cotnats will have closed afd fired the flash before the sutter is open. I am considering making an electronic delay unit to conteract the inbuilt sync delay. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 7 13:15:20 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 19:15:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jul 6, 11 07:09:29 pm Message-ID: > > I have not been following this thread at all, so forgive me if I ask a > question that has been answered already. > > Just how much good documentation is *only* available on fiche? I beelive this was discussed earlier, and there are at least 3 cases where you want to scan the fiche : 1) The documentation was, indeed, only released on Fiche. DEC source kits, for example. 2) The fiche manaul contains more information than the paper one. I am pretty sure some fich manuals contains ROM sources that were not in the paper version, for example 3) OK, there _was_ a paper version of the manaul, but nobody seems ot have it. If the fiche version exists, you have to work with that. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 7 13:28:40 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 19:28:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <20110706171300.E1817@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jul 6, 11 05:23:12 pm Message-ID: > It is hard to find ANY flashbulbs, particularly #6 and #26. I am told they turn up on E-bay fro mtime to time, probbly at excessive prices. There are collectors ofd such things, who I assume never think of actually using them (and thus ruining them for the collection). Of course Polaorid made a bulb-type flash where the bulb lasted fro more than one exposure (!). It was a normal filamnet blub -- I can't rememeber if it was 6V or 12V. it was supplied with 45V from a cpaapcitor (charged from a 'B batrery' for the exposure. Given the high speed of Polaroid B&W film, this was all you needed for indor shots. > > And I can not find ANY flash powder. So much for awesome night-time shots > at Burning-Man. Time to learn some remedial chemistry. It's bascially magnesium powder and an oxidising agent. I do not advicse making it for obvious reasons. FWIW, when I demonstratee my calssic comptuers, poeple are welcom to take photos of them (and when they're in bits, I don't mind photos being taken of the PCBsm etc) with any equipment _apart from flashpowder. Film or digital, still or cien, whataver, is fine (It won;t damage by machine). Electornic flash or even flashbulbs are fine. But I do not want my classic comptuers covered in magnesium oxide... > > > My digital camera doesn't even have a real cable release mount. But, I Yes, I am told may do not. I wonder why not, given that I use a cable relase with film cameras al lthe time. > can get around that with a 4 conductor 2.5mm plug and a couple of Ah... It's a pity such things are not standardised and documented. After all, there are only 2 common [1] cable release fittingd, the tapered male thread used originally on the Compur shutter and later used on just abotu every camera, and the larger female trhead used on screw mount Leicas, Nikon Fs, etc. [1] To quieten the pedants, there are mroe. Ive seen a beyonet fittong on one old leaf shutter, for example. > resistors. I've played with the Focoslide a little, but just can't seem > to come up with a need for the Visoflex. On a digital camera, I would agree. On a film Leica, it bascially turns it into an SLR and is useful for closeup work and telephoto lenses. -tony From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Jul 7 15:45:59 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 13:45:59 -0700 Subject: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <20110707085842.L30658@shell.lmi.net> References: <20110707085842.L30658@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2011 9:22 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Photographing fiche (Was: DEC RD53 Manual > > > I would think that everything available on fiche was originally, and > > more commonly, available on paper. > > ALMOST. > > A long boring anecdote: > > In 1970, I worked for an on-site contractor at GSFC SSDC (Goddard Space > Flight Center, Space Sciences Data Center, Bldg#26). One of the tasks that I > was assigned was to rewrite a dozen CABINETS of punched cards of calcomp > plotter (570?, 790?) programs to run on the Stromberg Carlson 4020 and > Stromberg Data 4060. > > The Stromberg machines (in a building for which I didn't have clearance, and > which I never physically saw) did direct output to 16mm and 35mm > microfilm. I have no idea whether they had a fiche capability - my output > arrived on 100 ft rolls of 16mm and 35mm B&W film. > > > I was so lazy that instead of rewriting the software, I looked at the > primitives that it called, and the primitives that that called, and the > primitives that that called. When I got to the "bottom-most turtle" of the > Calcomp library, I wrote a trivial SC/SD subroutine to do THAT (line segment, > IIRC?). With the help of some of the other coders, I put together a small > handful of 360 JCL to call the calcomp library AND the SC/SD library, but to > call my subroutine instead of the Calcomp primitive subroutine. > > > The entire room full of calcomp calling programs were working in weeks, > instead of years. > > Since I was an on-site contractor, I received simultaneous commendations > and reprimands. Nearly got a raise AND termination! Combined with many > other "brownie points" from other peoples' work, the company was given a > large bonus to distribute to the employees as they saw fit. If it were to have > been equally distributed, it would have been almost a grand per employee. > The company's algorithm for who got how much, netted me a frozen turkey > for XMAS. I decided that disunirregardless of the current job situation, that > it was time to move back to California. > A great anecdote, and a familiar story. Rather than relate my version of the experience, I'll offer a quote attributed to Supreme Court Chief Justice Earl Warren: "Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for." -- Ian From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 17:00:17 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 18:00:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Rescue of 3B1s in Chicago Area In-Reply-To: <1310043951.25522.141.camel@ryoko> References: <4E151972.70701@gmail.com> <1310043951.25522.141.camel@ryoko> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jul 2011, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On Wed, 2011-07-06 at 21:26 -0500, Keith Stanley wrote: >> All, >> I have rescued two 3B1s and there are more available. >> Please post here if you are interested. >> I would like to post in other forums like >> http://www.3b1.info/ >> but can't find out how to post. > > I'm definitely interested! > > I'd love to get hold of a 3B1 to hook up on the bench and use to finish > off the 3B1 Emulator. Your enthusiasm may wane a bit after you find out what shipping to the UK for something that heavy costs... -- From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jul 7 17:21:03 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2011 23:21:03 +0100 Subject: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E16314F.1050807@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/07/2011 19:28, Tony Duell wrote: >> My digital camera doesn't even have a real cable release mount. But, I > > Yes, I am told may do not. I wonder why not, given that I use a cable relase > with film cameras al lthe time. > It's a pity such things are not standardised and documented. Not a universal standard, but many SLRs use a 2.5mm jack plug that simply shorts some contacts. I remember when I got my first camera that supported electrical/electronic shutter release. There's nothing wrong with a cable release when you're manually operating the camera next to you, but the only common and reliable way to do it from any distance was an air release. I had one, good for about 50 feet. The electrical release, though, meant I could easily do all sorts of things previously only available with fairly complex and expensive gadgetry. It was trivial to make something that fired the camera in response to a sound, a flash of light, or the interruption of a light beam, or a periodic timer. Now virtually all SLRs, most bridge cameras, and many compacts support electronic and IR triggering, and the cost of the trigger device is about the same as a decent cable release. Somewhat less, if you already have an iPaq, iPhone, or Android phone and only count the software cost. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 17:35:12 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 17:35:12 -0500 Subject: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <4E16314F.1050807@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4E16314F.1050807@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: i made my own for my pentax outa one of these http://www.pccables.com/images/87031.jpg On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 5:21 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 07/07/2011 19:28, Tony Duell wrote: > > My digital camera doesn't even have a real cable release mount. But, I >>> >> >> Yes, I am told may do not. I wonder why not, given that I use a cable >> relase >> with film cameras al lthe time. >> > > It's a pity such things are not standardised and documented. >> > > Not a universal standard, but many SLRs use a 2.5mm jack plug that simply > shorts some contacts. I remember when I got my first camera that supported > electrical/electronic shutter release. There's nothing wrong with a cable > release when you're manually operating the camera next to you, but the only > common and reliable way to do it from any distance was an air release. I > had one, good for about 50 feet. The electrical release, though, meant I > could easily do all sorts of things previously only available with fairly > complex and expensive gadgetry. It was trivial to make something that fired > the camera in response to a sound, a flash of light, or the interruption of > a light beam, or a periodic timer. Now virtually all SLRs, most bridge > cameras, and many compacts support electronic and IR triggering, and the > cost of the trigger device is about the same as a decent cable release. > Somewhat less, if you already have an iPaq, iPhone, or Android phone and > only count the software cost. > > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Jul 7 21:45:44 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 19:45:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: appraisals Message-ID: While preparing the paperwork for some donations to the Computer History Museum, I started wondering about appraising the artifacts donated for tax write-off purposes. Who would qualify as an appraiser of classic computer items? I think I'm a pretty good candidate given the time I've spent selling the stuff on Ebay. Is this something I should run by a lawyer? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jul 7 21:58:40 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 19:58:40 -0700 Subject: appraisals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Actually who does appraise the value of goods when someone donates them to a non-profit? Of course I'm crazy enough to donate a small fortune in books to a non-profit, and not claim a dime. Zane At 7:45 PM -0700 7/7/11, David Griffith wrote: >While preparing the paperwork for some donations to the Computer >History Museum, I started wondering about appraising the artifacts >donated for tax write-off purposes. Who would qualify as an >appraiser of classic computer items? I think I'm a pretty good >candidate given the time I've spent selling the stuff on Ebay. Is >this something I should run by a lawyer? -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 22:04:43 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 23:04:43 -0400 Subject: appraisals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > While preparing the paperwork for some donations to the Computer History > Museum, I started wondering about appraising the artifacts donated for tax > write-off purposes. ?Who would qualify as an appraiser of classic computer > items? ?I think I'm a pretty good candidate given the time I've spent > selling the stuff on Ebay. ?Is this something I should run by a lawyer? Someone in the business. Sellam, for example. This field (and money) is so small that traditional appraisers are really not an option. -- Will From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Jul 7 22:12:03 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 20:12:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: appraisals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jul 2011, William Donzelli wrote: >> While preparing the paperwork for some donations to the Computer History >> Museum, I started wondering about appraising the artifacts donated for tax >> write-off purposes. ?Who would qualify as an appraiser of classic computer >> items? ?I think I'm a pretty good candidate given the time I've spent >> selling the stuff on Ebay. ?Is this something I should run by a lawyer? > > Someone in the business. Sellam, for example. > > This field (and money) is so small that traditional appraisers are > really not an option. I'd doubt traditional appraisers would know where to begin with the stuff we play with. I sent a private email to Sellam to see what he thinks. I'm someone in the business, but I'm guessing the IRS wouldn't like it if I did the appraisal for something I myself donated. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From evan at snarc.net Thu Jul 7 23:27:11 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2011 00:27:11 -0400 Subject: appraisals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E16871F.5070004@snarc.net> >>> I'm someone in the business Selling stuff on eBay, unless it were your full-time documented job, doesn't put you "in the business". Frankly, there is no "the business" of vintage computing. Other than a handful of professional museums and a handful of kits/parts makers, how many people make their living from vintage computing? Even with Sellam it's only part of his business in addition to electronics recycling and consulting. From james at machineroom.info Thu Jul 7 05:50:16 2011 From: james at machineroom.info (James Wilson) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2011 11:50:16 +0100 Subject: MINC-11 boot problems Message-ID: <4E158F68.2050401@machineroom.info> Hi all, I obtained a MINC-11 from Adrians DEC emporium(aka garage) in Cambridge last year (http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/museum/digital/minc/index.php). I've finally got around to taking a look and it appears to be complete and original with a /03 CPU. Taken all the cards out and given it a good clean. Checked for any odd washers etc. in the backplane. Removed the power supply (H786), hooked up to a pair of hard drives as a dummy load and tested. Nothing. Normally at this point I'd scrap it and hook up a PC PSU but I've been reading this group too long and have been persuaded by Tonys component level repair arguments so I got stuck in :) Tracked it down to one of a pair of 1N4004s connected in series after the 7912 12V start-up regulator. So, I now have healthy 5V & 12V supplies and these seem to be stable for a long time with all the cards in place. But - it's not booting. The diag LEDs on the BDV11-YA constantly read 1001 from power on (I'm assuming that on=1). The only table of diag codes that I could find lists 1001 as "DECnet message received" which I believe to be bogus since I don't have any DECnet cards (I'm also wondering if the MINC has different diag codes?). So I started digging further and found that BDCOK H is ~1.7V and BPOK H is ~2V. Now, I believe that these signals are generated directly from the PSU, specifically the power monitor board that calls them DC L and AC L. My assumption is that these should both be at 5V in a healthy system since they are active high - correct? Unlike a regular LSI11 the MINC doesn't have any front panel buttons or LEDs (e.g. for BDCOK status) so I can't easily tell if what I have is good or not... I've not gone too much further yet but thought I'd try and get some knowledgeable input to make sure I'm not going down the wrong path. One thing I have found is the -12V supply that's only used inside the PSU (and feeds the power monitor board) is at ~-15V. Many thanks for any advice! James From james at machineroom.info Thu Jul 7 07:42:31 2011 From: james at machineroom.info (James Wilson) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2011 13:42:31 +0100 Subject: MINC-11 boot problems In-Reply-To: <4E158F68.2050401@machineroom.info> References: <4E158F68.2050401@machineroom.info> Message-ID: <4E15A9B7.10104@machineroom.info> Quick update - I stuck a logic analyser on the RTC (line clock), PWR OK and DC OK signals coming from the PSU. RTC is oscillating at 50Hz as I'd expect. Strangely, so too are PWR OK and DC OK. I'm assuming that's not good! On 07/07/2011 11:50, James Wilson wrote: > Hi all, I obtained a MINC-11 from Adrians DEC emporium(aka garage) in > Cambridge last year > (http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/museum/digital/minc/index.php). I've > finally got around to taking a look and it appears to be complete and > original with a /03 CPU. > > Taken all the cards out and given it a good clean. Checked for any odd > washers etc. in the backplane. > Removed the power supply (H786), hooked up to a pair of hard drives as > a dummy load and tested. Nothing. Normally at this point I'd scrap it > and hook up a PC PSU but I've been reading this group too long and > have been persuaded by Tonys component level repair arguments so I got > stuck in :) > Tracked it down to one of a pair of 1N4004s connected in series after > the 7912 12V start-up regulator. So, I now have healthy 5V & 12V > supplies and these seem to be stable for a long time with all the > cards in place. > > But - it's not booting. The diag LEDs on the BDV11-YA constantly read > 1001 from power on (I'm assuming that on=1). The only table of diag > codes that I could find lists 1001 as "DECnet message received" which > I believe to be bogus since I don't have any DECnet cards (I'm also > wondering if the MINC has different diag codes?). So I started digging > further and found that BDCOK H is ~1.7V and BPOK H is ~2V. Now, I > believe that these signals are generated directly from the PSU, > specifically the power monitor board that calls them DC L and AC L. My > assumption is that these should both be at 5V in a healthy system > since they are active high - correct? > Unlike a regular LSI11 the MINC doesn't have any front panel buttons > or LEDs (e.g. for BDCOK status) so I can't easily tell if what I have > is good or not... > I've not gone too much further yet but thought I'd try and get some > knowledgeable input to make sure I'm not going down the wrong path. > One thing I have found is the -12V supply that's only used inside the > PSU (and feeds the power monitor board) is at ~-15V. > > Many thanks for any advice! > James > From jchisolm6 at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 01:28:43 2011 From: jchisolm6 at gmail.com (Joe Chisolm - Gmail) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2011 01:28:43 -0500 Subject: appraisals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E16A39B.4090907@gmail.com> On 07/07/2011 09:45 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > While preparing the paperwork for some donations to the Computer > History Museum, I started wondering about appraising the artifacts > donated for tax write-off purposes. Who would qualify as an appraiser > of classic computer items? I think I'm a pretty good candidate given > the time I've spent selling the stuff on Ebay. Is this something I > should run by a lawyer? > David, The 501(c)(3), in this case the CHM, should give you paper work that describes the donation and the value of the donation. A few years back the IRS issued rulings that said you could no longer just "claim" donations. You have to have the paper work from the 501c3 org. I think it was last year or year before that they started clamping down on the 501c3 groups to try and make sure the value of the donation is "reasonable". There were some 501c3 where you would donate something that might be worth $10 and they would say it was worth (your tax rate)*$10 so you got closer to a full tax credit instead of a deduction. I have never donated to the CHM so if the paper work says you have to decide the value then I would suggest you use something reasonable. 200K for a VT105 would probably get you an interesting letter from the IRS. If the total value is not that large I would not worry too much about it. If you think the value is mega bucks, 10's to 100's of K then best go find a good tax guy. There are more effective ways to get a better tax write off and protect you from the IRS money grabbers. -- Joe Chisolm From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jul 8 08:08:55 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2011 06:08:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [OT (WAY!)] First flight... Message-ID: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx5eb5yTDQw g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 08:35:40 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2011 09:35:40 -0400 Subject: [OT (WAY!)] First flight... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 9:08 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx5eb5yTDQw Very, very nice! -ethan From keithvz at verizon.net Fri Jul 8 09:20:28 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2011 10:20:28 -0400 Subject: appraisals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E17122C.9010807@verizon.net> On 7/7/2011 10:45 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > While preparing the paperwork for some donations to the Computer > History Museum, I started wondering about appraising the artifacts > donated for tax write-off purposes. Who would qualify as an appraiser > of classic computer items? I think I'm a pretty good candidate given > the time I've spent selling the stuff on Ebay. Is this something I > should run by a lawyer? > As Joe C. mentioned in his post, I think that if you use reasonable values for things, and even better, have documentation showing a sale at similar prices in any forum, you are likely safe. As long as you are honest during the process, I don't think any auditor is going to take issue with it. I can't imagine them saying that your 3b1 or whatever isn't worth what you claim. What would be their basis for disagreement? Who are they going to hire to appraise it? And if they do, your number will probably be in the ballpark. And especially if you have SOMETHING that you relied on --- I doubt they are going to fault your process. You didn't just pick the number randomly out of the air. As Joe C said, if we are talking about big $$$, then find tax guy and/or lawyer. IMHO, Keith From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jul 8 11:07:18 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2011 10:07:18 -0600 Subject: appraisals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > > While preparing the paperwork for some donations to the Computer History > > Museum, I started wondering about appraising the artifacts donated for tax > > write-off purposes. Who would qualify as an appraiser of classic computer > > items? I think I'm a pretty good candidate given the time I've spent > > selling the stuff on Ebay. Is this something I should run by a lawyer? > > Someone in the business. Sellam, for example. I'd put Will in that category, too :-). I can appraise terminals and graphics stuff if anyone needs help. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jul 8 11:11:20 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2011 10:11:20 -0600 Subject: appraisals In-Reply-To: <4E16871F.5070004@snarc.net> References: <4E16871F.5070004@snarc.net> Message-ID: In article <4E16871F.5070004 at snarc.net>, Evan Koblentz writes: > >>> I'm someone in the business > > Selling stuff on eBay, unless it were your full-time documented job, > doesn't put you "in the business". Frankly, there is no "the business" > of vintage computing. Right. However, paying attention to ebay gives you an understanding of what the current market prices are for various things. I've spent enough time looking at terminals that I believe I can state estimated values for those kinds of things. I can also tell you what's offered for sale commonly and what's offered for sale occasionally. For instance, suppose I bought a classic muscle car for $1 from someone who just wanted it out of their sight and didn't care about its value. Does this mean its appraised value for donation purposes is $1? No. Its market value is what people typically pay for such an item in its condition. There's also the question of whether or not you claim the current market value for something or its original purchase price in current dollars. That's something you'd need to ask a tax accountant or tax attorney about and is separate from the question of what is its fair market value today. > Other than a handful of professional museums and a > handful of kits/parts makers, how many people make their living from > vintage computing? Even with Sellam it's only part of his business in > addition to electronics recycling and consulting. I know four people who make their entire living from vintage computing, and they're all subscribers to this list. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pontus at update.uu.se Fri Jul 8 11:23:40 2011 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2011 18:23:40 +0200 Subject: appraisals In-Reply-To: References: <4E16871F.5070004@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4E172F0C.6030901@update.uu.se> 2011-07-08 18:11, Richard skrev: > I know four people who make their entire living from vintage computing, > and they're all subscribers to this list. Buying and selling? Or maintaining? Regards, Pontus. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 11:26:31 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2011 12:26:31 -0400 Subject: appraisals In-Reply-To: References: <4E16871F.5070004@snarc.net> Message-ID: > I know four people who make their entire living from vintage computing, > and they're all subscribers to this list. There actually is "a business" of vintage computing, now that the market has matured. Long time members of this list has seen the market grow up from nearly nothing to what it is now...which is still small potatoes compared to the real antiques market. This is why there probably is no need to really worry about getting any sort of super-certified appraisal, unless there is an Apple 1 class donation happening. For the record, a majority of my yearly sales are not vintage computing related, but nearly everything is vintage technology related. -- Will From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 12:11:57 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2011 12:11:57 -0500 Subject: h11 manuals Message-ID: curently spending an hr a day scanning heathkit h11 manuals so far scaned 4 seconds of the software referance manual if anyones interested http://pointdouglas.com/SEBHC/H11/?M=A From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 8 12:20:32 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2011 10:20:32 -0700 Subject: appraisals In-Reply-To: <4E16A39B.4090907@gmail.com> References: <4E16A39B.4090907@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4E173C60.1070100@bitsavers.org> On 7/7/11 11:28 PM, Joe Chisolm - Gmail wrote: > The 501(c)(3), in this case the CHM, should give you paper work that describes the donation and the value of the donation. ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE The IRS requires INDEPENDENT appraisals. CHM does not, and CANNOT BY LAW, appraise donations it receives, and if asked will never offer a guess as to any computing artifact's value. Sellam has a track record with them, and he has told me that they have never been questioned by the IRS on an appraisal that he has made. From feldman.r at comcast.net Fri Jul 8 13:11:41 2011 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2011 18:11:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: appraisals Message-ID: <1551187384.371585.1310148701786.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> >Message: 17 >Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2011 01:28:43 -0500 >From: Joe Chisolm - Gmail < jchisolm6 at gmail.com > >Subject: Re: appraisals >The 501(c)(3), in this case the CHM, should give you paper work that >describes the donation and the value of the donation. ?A few years back >the IRS issued rulings that said you could no longer just "claim" >donations. ?You have to have the paper work from the 501c3 org.?? When I worked in Anthropology at the Field Museum in Chicago, we would give donors a letter stating receipt of the donation, but we did not asign a value to the donation. The donor had to get that from a third party appriser. Most other museums that I am familiar with have similar policies (which might even be a part of the tax code). Bob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 8 13:00:13 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2011 19:00:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: MINC-11 boot problems In-Reply-To: <4E158F68.2050401@machineroom.info> from "James Wilson" at Jul 7, 11 11:50:16 am Message-ID: > Taken all the cards out and given it a good clean. Checked for any odd > washers etc. in the backplane. > Removed the power supply (H786), hooked up to a pair of hard drives as a > dummy load and tested. Nothing. Normally at this point I'd scrap it and > hook up a PC PSU but I've been reading this group too long and have been > persuaded by Tonys component level repair arguments so I got stuck in :) With a comment like that, how can I avoid tryign to help :-) > Tracked it down to one of a pair of 1N4004s connected in series after > the 7912 12V start-up regulator. So, I now have healthy 5V & 12V I have the MINC printset to hand, open t the H786 PSU diagrams. I assume these are D31 andD32 on the 'Master Board'. I thimk the current fault migth be in taht area too. > supplies and these seem to be stable for a long time with all the cards > in place. > > But - it's not booting. The diag LEDs on the BDV11-YA constantly read > 1001 from power on (I'm assuming that on=1). The only table of diag > codes that I could find lists 1001 as "DECnet message received" which I > believe to be bogus since I don't have any DECnet cards (I'm also > wondering if the MINC has different diag codes?). So I started digging > further and found that BDCOK H is ~1.7V and BPOK H is ~2V. Now, I I was going to ask if these signas were, in fact, oscillating, but I noticed your next message whre you say theu are/ Are you sure it's 50Hz, though? 100 Hz would be more likely. Anyway, I'd check th bridge rectfier diodes D1-D4 ontne Master Board (particularly if it really is 50Hz) and the capacitor C3 (2100 uF) at the input to the 7812 yuou mntion. A 220uF will be fine as a repalcement. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 8 13:04:54 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2011 19:04:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <4E16314F.1050807@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jul 7, 11 11:21:03 pm Message-ID: > > On 07/07/2011 19:28, Tony Duell wrote: > > >> My digital camera doesn't even have a real cable release mount. But, I > > > > Yes, I am told may do not. I wonder why not, given that I use a cable relase > > with film cameras al lthe time. > > > It's a pity such things are not standardised and documented. > > Not a universal standard, but many SLRs use a 2.5mm jack plug that > simply shorts some contacts. I remember when I got my first camera that > supported electrical/electronic shutter release. There's nothing wrong > with a cable release when you're manually operating the camera next to > you, but the only common and reliable way to do it from any distance was > an air release. I had one, good for about 50 feet. The electrical Sure. For an enjtirely electronically-conmtroleld camera (I assume even things like the miroro movement are electrically triggered), an electrical remote release makes more sense than a mechanical cable release. It's a pity the isn't some unversal standard for basical functionaity (It's this type of connecotre, short these 2 pins to trigger the camera), so you could use anybody's accessories, jsut as with the mechanical cable release ona film camera. > timer. Now virtually all SLRs, most bridge cameras, and many compacts > support electronic and IR triggering, and the cost of the trigger device > is about the same as a decent cable release. Somewhat less, if you I would much prefer it if the operatrion was properly docuemtned, since I find most photogrtaphic electroncis to be lecalised robbery... > already have an iPaq, iPhone, or Android phone and only count the > software cost. There is something perverse about using such a powerful processor just to trigger a camera... Needless to say this would nevr be an option for me. -tony From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jul 8 14:02:25 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2011 13:02:25 -0600 Subject: appraisals In-Reply-To: <1551187384.371585.1310148701786.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1551187384.371585.1310148701786.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: In article <1551187384.371585.1310148701786.JavaMail.root at sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, feldman.r at comcast.net writes: > >From: Joe Chisolm - Gmail < jchisolm6 at gmail.com > > > >The 501(c)(3), in this case the CHM, should give you paper work that > >describes the donation and the value of the donation. A few years back > >the IRS issued rulings that said you could no longer just "claim" > >donations. You have to have the paper work from the 501c3 org. > > When I worked in Anthropology at the Field Museum in Chicago, we would > give donors a letter stating receipt of the donation, but we did not > asign a value to the donation. The donor had to get that from a third > party appriser. Most other museums that I am famil iar with have similar > policies (which might even be a part of the tax code). Perhaps Joe was thinking of this situation. When you give money to a non-profit and they give you some "gift" in return for your donation, they give you a slip of paper that states the value of the "gift" and this is subtracted from your total donation for deduction purposes. So if I give $500 to the CHM and they give me a T-shirt as a thank you for the donation that they tell me cost them $20, I can only deduct $500-20=480 as my donation. In these circumstances, the non-profit will give you paperwork stating the value of the "in kind" gift that you got in return for your donation. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jul 8 14:03:41 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2011 13:03:41 -0600 Subject: h11 manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Adrian Stoness writes: > curently spending an hr a day scanning heathkit h11 manuals so far scaned 4 > seconds of the software referance manual if anyones interested > > http://pointdouglas.com/SEBHC/H11/?M=A Does anyone in the Heath/Zenith community have scanned copies of the manuals for the terminals? H-9 H-19/Z-19 Z-29 Z-39 Z-49 The latter two I've heard rumors of their existence but haven't been able to find anything on them at all; no pictures, no documentation, no nothing. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 14:10:12 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2011 15:10:12 -0400 Subject: h11 manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > The latter two I've heard rumors of their existence but haven't been able > to find anything on them at all; no pictures, no documentation, no nothing. Try http://www.d8apro.com/. He owns all the Heathkit IP (and yes, goes after people that offer manual scans - be warned). i do not know who owns the Zenith IP. -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jul 8 14:39:03 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2011 13:39:03 -0600 Subject: h11 manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I wrote: > > The latter two I've heard rumors of their existence but haven't been able > > to find anything on them at all; no pictures, no documentation, no nothing. In article , William Donzelli writes: > Try http://www.d8apro.com/. He owns all the Heathkit IP (and yes, goes > after people that offer manual scans - be warned). Good to know. He has manuals for the H-9 and H-19. I have a manual for the H-19; I might have an H-9 manual around somewhere. > i do not know who owns the Zenith IP. I know the Z-29 was offered in kit form, but do not know about the rest. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 15:07:36 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2011 15:07:36 -0500 Subject: h11 manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: wha? looking at it he does not list the h11 On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 2:10 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > > The latter two I've heard rumors of their existence but haven't been able > > to find anything on them at all; no pictures, no documentation, no > nothing. > > Try http://www.d8apro.com/. He owns all the Heathkit IP (and yes, goes > after people that offer manual scans - be warned). > > i do not know who owns the Zenith IP. > > -- > Will > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jul 8 17:42:34 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2011 15:42:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: appraisals and IRS inexplicability In-Reply-To: References: <4E16871F.5070004@snarc.net> Message-ID: <20110708152723.L77761@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 8 Jul 2011, Richard wrote: > Right. However, paying attention to ebay gives you an understanding of > what the current market prices are for various things. I've spent enough > time looking at terminals that I believe I can state estimated values for > those kinds of things. I can also tell you what's offered for sale > commonly and what's offered for sale occasionally. Which is a large part, but NOT the entire issue, for assigning value to donations! > For instance, suppose I bought a classic muscle car for $1 from someone > who just wanted it out of their sight and didn't care about its value. > Does this mean its appraised value for donation purposes is $1? No. Actually, . . . > Its market value is what people typically pay for such an item in its > condition. There's also the question of whether or not you claim the > current market value for something or its original purchase price in > current dollars. That's something you'd need to ask a tax accountant > or tax attorney about and is separate from the question of what is its > fair market value today. Another reason to ALSO need tax expertise! It usta be, maybe or maybe not STILL, that if you bought something and then donated it to a 501C3, that it would be valued at WHAT YOU PAID FOR IT (such as your $1 muscle car, which is just what most non-profits REALLY need), unless you had had it for over one year! IF you had had it for over one year, THEN it would be valued at "fair market value". If you charge $100 per hour to do work in your field of expertise, and you decide to do 8 hours of such work for a non-profit, . . . Do you KNOW what amount your tax deduction would be? Now go back and read carefully. I did NOT say what it "OUGHTA" be! When it comes to counter-examples, I am well aware that many people have put down numbers that were WRONG, inaccurate, not in compliance with the details of the codes, or just plain BULLSHIT, and nevertheless, the IRS may have failed to notice, ignored, or individual IRS staff being incompetent or just not given a shit about the error. So, "I did that", and even "I did that, and it survived an audit" don't mean shit when it comes to IRS codes. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From evan at snarc.net Fri Jul 8 19:53:54 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2011 20:53:54 -0400 Subject: appraisals In-Reply-To: References: <4E16871F.5070004@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4E17A6A2.6000307@snarc.net> > I know four people who make their entire living from vintage computing, and they're all subscribers to this list. Well, there's Rich / Ian, both via Vulcan, but I think of them in the same grouping as full-time museum professionals. From evan at snarc.net Fri Jul 8 19:56:06 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2011 20:56:06 -0400 Subject: appraisals In-Reply-To: References: <4E16871F.5070004@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4E17A726.3060709@snarc.net> >>> For the record, a majority of my yearly sales are not vintage computing related, but nearly everything is vintage technology related. -- Will I was under the impression that you had an unrelated daytime job. From evan at snarc.net Fri Jul 8 19:57:58 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2011 20:57:58 -0400 Subject: appraisals In-Reply-To: <4E173C60.1070100@bitsavers.org> References: <4E16A39B.4090907@gmail.com> <4E173C60.1070100@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E17A796.2030106@snarc.net> > >> The 501(c)(3), in this case the CHM, should give you paper work that >> describes the donation and the value of the donation. > > ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE > The IRS requires INDEPENDENT appraisals. > > CHM does not, and CANNOT BY LAW, appraise donations it receives Right. We have the same rule here at the InfoAge Science Center. We're also a 501c3, and we've been strictly warned against citing value. From nick.allen at comcast.net Fri Jul 8 08:26:29 2011 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2011 08:26:29 -0500 Subject: appraisals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E170585.9030500@comcast.net> It is your responsibility to appraise them yourself when you file your taxes, just be sure you can back it up if you ever get audited. The museum should provide a receipt of what was received, you will need to declare the value in your own taxes separate from the receipt. From james at machineroom.info Fri Jul 8 14:33:45 2011 From: james at machineroom.info (James Wilson) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2011 20:33:45 +0100 Subject: MINC-11 boot problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E175B99.2010800@machineroom.info> >> supplies and these seem to be stable for a long time with all the cards >> in place. >> >> But - it's not booting. The diag LEDs on the BDV11-YA constantly read >> 1001 from power on (I'm assuming that on=1). The only table of diag >> codes that I could find lists 1001 as "DECnet message received" which I >> believe to be bogus since I don't have any DECnet cards (I'm also >> wondering if the MINC has different diag codes?). So I started digging >> further and found that BDCOK H is ~1.7V and BPOK H is ~2V. Now, I > I was going to ask if these signas were, in fact, oscillating, but I > noticed your next message whre you say theu are/ Are you sure it's 50Hz, > though? 100 Hz would be more likely. > > Anyway, I'd check th bridge rectfier diodes D1-D4 ontne Master Board > (particularly if it really is 50Hz) and the capacitor C3 (2100 uF) at the > input to the 7812 yuou mntion. A 220uF will be fine as a repalcement. > > -tony Thanks Tony. Made a bit more progress today then the 'scope went fizzle fizzle pop :( Looks like the +12V startup and -12V (actually -15) are fine. I'm pretty sure the fault is on the power monitor board. Op-amp E1 (LM339) has +5V @ the + input. The - input I believe is AC derived from the HF signals on the main board (pin J on the sub board). This signal seems to be approx 32KHz and is 14V p-p at E1 pin 8 and 16V p-p at pin 6. The curious thing (I'm learning as I go!) is that I'd expect the outputs (pins 1 & 14) to oscillate between -15 and +12 but they're both stuck at -15. I tried replacing the LM339 (E1) and get the same result. These signals feed the trigger inputs to the 555's and it is these that seem to drive the DC L and AC L signals. My understanding is the 555's are a one-shot that should be re-triggered regularly but since the output of the 339 isn't oscillating this isn't working. The coupling between the 339 and 555 is too complex to get my little brain around so I can't be sure this is how it's supposed to work mind you! Next step is to fix/replace the scope. BTW - if I tie the DC OK and PWR OK signals to +5 would you expect the system to boot? or is the timing of these signals coming up important somewhere? James From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jul 9 09:57:59 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2011 08:57:59 -0600 Subject: appraisals In-Reply-To: <4E17A6A2.6000307@snarc.net> References: <4E16871F.5070004@snarc.net> <4E17A6A2.6000307@snarc.net> Message-ID: In article <4E17A6A2.6000307 at snarc.net>, Evan Koblentz writes: > > I know four people who make their entire living from vintage computing, and they're all subscribers to this list. > > Well, there's Rich / Ian, both via Vulcan, but I think of them in the > same grouping as full-time museum professionals. In my book, that counts as making your living from vintage computing. If their museum was dedicated to farm implements and they did vintage computing on their own time, I would not consider them to be making their living from vintage computing. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat Jul 9 11:32:45 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 09:32:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: free-open source PCB autorouter software development Message-ID: <1310229165.95029.YahooMailClassic@web180210.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> > Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 23:39:14 -0400 > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > To: > Subject: Re: free-open source PCB autorouter software development > > On 7/6/11 7:03 PM, Andrew Lynch wrote: > > You've missed the point entirely. Yes, gEDA includes a PCB layout > > tool (PCB) which includes an autorouter. However, they are closely > > coupled and if you want to use the PCB autorouter you must start with > > gEDA EDA tool set and stay with it. > > This is not correct! While there is a well-developed integrative > path between PCB and the gEDA suite, it is NOT necessary to do all of > your schematics in gEDA in order to use PCB, nor is it necessary to use > PCB for your board layouts if you use gEDA for schematics/BOM/etc. > Hi, gEDA is a fine EDA tool set. PCB is a great stand alone PCB layout tool that includes an autorouter. Agreed. However, if you are going to use the PCB autorouter you must use PCB for your PCB layout. For example, how does one get their PCB layout into PCB to use its autorouter if you uses KiCAD, FreePCB, or Eagle? There is no interchange standard AFAIK. I think we've lost focus on the original topic of this thread so I will repeat it. If you are a software developer with familiarity with EDA and are able to help develop a truly free/open source PCB autorouter this is a great opportunity to help the hobbyist EDA community. This is desperately needed IMO. Hobbyist PCB autorouters are either non-free or lack support of interchange standards. QAutorouter has promise to open up free/open source PCB autorouting to all the hobbyist EDA toolsets that support Specctra DSN export and SES import such as KiCAD, gEDA, FreePCB, and Eagle. Please consider. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi All, I'm working on a project here http://sourceforge.net/projects/qautorouter/ It is an auto-router that is written in C++ on Qt application framework, reads/writes specctra file format and uses a plug-in style of interface for the router engines. It is very alpha at this stage, I have much of the UI, file I/O, and the plug-in API operational. I am working on a "Simple Router" plug-in at the moment that is implementing a simplified version of the expanding box algorithm. The Simple Router will be used as a sort of template for debugging the plugin-api and as a template for developing more sophisticated plug-ins. Toporouter would be a good one. In any case, it would be great to get a few other people on-board, a developer or two that is quite proficient in C++ would be very helpful, some hands-on with Qt would help a lot too. Someone to look after the Windows(tm) and Mac OS-X build and release would be very helpful. Someone to help with packaging; windows installer, Mac OSX installer, and linux .deb, .rpm packages would be helpful as well. If you're interested, please just send me a little about what you can contribute, and your sourceforge id. Kind Regards, Mike Sharkey -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJOEAlnAAoJEEzVYN3s3Af7lqIIALSmDzQGxAjYBIcZsAcjw++D gw8LQAvUytUY+4xX6kVkdeA+wjvywZw0+OZKoZXeOjvY39ZNMayKvzWN4zBoUjbc YMSx9wZ7j6QYU9EBh25hpyGmMg97L5XubY/6zRV/xkvSs9qm8/gMyayBBVBU0sMM 43blOHuELx5WYsFS2uyz/WLWE8vdpxWnDpsqfxOvp2aaRZzzEzvuP5rnj7XTN9KV TCFe+vT/auZZIEfKzGe9lYLMHgBpccBCr0IYOiRRS3LuCytTTnoscTdzXCiTX1sE iNBJqbMHjrb64oOs+6P4x10gOSQB8rSRmFOlpQG8puNk7ZRh6ggFxgRTzYM3oZc= =abfU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 9 15:13:09 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 21:13:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: MINC-11 boot problems In-Reply-To: <4E175B99.2010800@machineroom.info> from "James Wilson" at Jul 8, 11 08:33:45 pm Message-ID: > Looks like the +12V startup and -12V (actually -15) are fine. I'm Have you checked these with a 'scope? Excessive ripple on a supply line could cause exactly the fault you are seeing. Hong one one more second.. When you checked the signals on the backplane, what, if any,boartds did you have in the amchine? The point being that the AC L and DC L signals are open-drain (essentially the same as open collectror) signals and need a pull-up somwehre. With the PSU running correctly, the otuptu transistorw will be turned off, so if there's nothing elase connected to them they will flat, and a 'scope will see mains pickup... > pretty sure the fault is on the power monitor board. > Op-amp E1 (LM339) has +5V @ the + input. The - input I believe is AC E1 is a quad comparatior IC. It's a bit like an op-amp, but with open collector output. > derived from the HF signals on the main board (pin J on the sub board). > This signal seems to be approx 32KHz and is 14V p-p at E1 pin 8 and 16V > p-p at pin 6. The curious thing (I'm learning as I go!) is that I'd That sounds right. > expect the outputs (pins 1 & 14) to oscillate between -15 and +12 but > they're both stuck at -15. I tried replacing the LM339 (E1) and get the Without anything to pull them up, there will be no change at the output of the comparator. The pull-ups are actually R15 and R18. This threw me for a bit, remember that E1 runs between the +12V and -15V rails, so resistor from the output to ground is actually a pull-up wrt the -15V rail. > same result. These signals feed the trigger inputs to the 555's and it > is these that seem to drive the DC L and AC L signals. My understanding > is the 555's are a one-shot that should be re-triggered regularly but > since the output of the 339 isn't oscillating this isn't working. The > coupling between the 339 and 555 is too complex to get my little brain > around so I can't be sure this is how it's supposed to work mind you! Waht is the output (pin 3) of each 555 doing? Rememebr this wil lalso switch between -15V and 0V (llok at the power conenctions to the 555, it runs from the -15V rail again. > > Next step is to fix/replace the scope. Rhat sort of 'scope is it? > BTW - if I tie the DC OK and PWR OK signals to +5 would you expect the > system to boot? or is the timing of these signals coming up important > somewhere? Tying the signals hard to +5V is likely to fdamge the output FETs Q2 and Q3 on the power monitor PCB I think at least one ofthese dsignals is used as a reset input to the CPU so it really should only go high after the PSU rails are stable and correct. -tony From evan at snarc.net Sat Jul 9 16:58:29 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2011 17:58:29 -0400 Subject: appraisals In-Reply-To: References: <4E16871F.5070004@snarc.net> <4E17A6A2.6000307@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4E18CF05.9020409@snarc.net> >> Well, there's Rich / Ian, both via Vulcan, but I think of them in the same grouping as full-time museum professionals. > In my book, that counts as making your living from vintage computing. I'm not disagreeing. My point is that * other * than working in a professional museum environment, I don't think it is possible to make one's living from our hobby. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Jul 9 17:50:04 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 15:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: appraisals In-Reply-To: <4E18CF05.9020409@snarc.net> References: <4E16871F.5070004@snarc.net> <4E17A6A2.6000307@snarc.net> <4E18CF05.9020409@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Jul 2011, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>> Well, there's Rich / Ian, both via Vulcan, but I think of them in the same >>> grouping as full-time museum professionals. >> In my book, that counts as making your living from vintage computing. > > I'm not disagreeing. My point is that * other * than working in a > professional museum environment, I don't think it is possible to make one's > living from our hobby. > Unless of course your name is "wiredforservice" and you've got an endless supply of gullible suckers. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jul 9 21:36:18 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2011 20:36:18 -0600 Subject: appraisals In-Reply-To: <4E18CF05.9020409@snarc.net> References: <4E16871F.5070004@snarc.net> <4E17A6A2.6000307@snarc.net> <4E18CF05.9020409@snarc.net> Message-ID: In article <4E18CF05.9020409 at snarc.net>, Evan Koblentz writes: > >> Well, there's Rich / Ian, both via Vulcan, but I think of them in the same grouping as full-time museum professionals. > > In my book, that counts as making your living from vintage computing. > > I'm not disagreeing. My point is that * other * than working in a > professional museum environment, I don't think it is possible to make > one's living from our hobby. Will declares his scope as larger than just vintage computing, but in my book he qualifies. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From quapla at xs4all.nl Sun Jul 10 10:12:16 2011 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 17:12:16 +0200 Subject: available M9404 / M9405 Message-ID: <04bcf885b39dbf74462fc29f01ce024a.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Found during sorting out some boxes, a M9404 (Q22 cable connector) and a M9405 (Q22 cable connector mirror image). Both are in good nick (no broken of latches) and each card has 2 50pin berg connector sockets on them. I would like to get Eur 20 + postage for it. I'm in the Netherlands btw. -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From spedraja at ono.com Sun Jul 10 10:25:55 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 17:25:55 +0200 Subject: available M9404 / M9405 In-Reply-To: <04bcf885b39dbf74462fc29f01ce024a.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <04bcf885b39dbf74462fc29f01ce024a.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: I should like to get them, Ed. Let me know of to pay you. Regards Sergio Pedraja 2011/7/10 E. Groenenberg > > Found during sorting out some boxes, a M9404 (Q22 cable connector) > and a M9405 (Q22 cable connector mirror image). Both are in good nick > (no broken of latches) and each card has 2 50pin berg connector sockets > on them. > > I would like to get Eur 20 + postage for it. > I'm in the Netherlands btw. > > -- > Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. > > From rich.cini at verizon.net Sun Jul 10 16:04:34 2011 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 17:04:34 -0400 Subject: Cromemco D+7A troubleshooting question Message-ID: All -- I?m finally getting around to building the JS-1 joystick replica and using a D+7A board I got a few months ago. I have the JS built but now I?m trying to recalibrate the board per the instructions on page 4 and I?m having trouble getting it to read the right values. The calibration procedure, basically, starts with putting 2.54v on an analog input and using a short program to read the input and display it on the front panel output port of my IMSAM. There are two problems. When reading the A/D and displaying the input, bit7 is stuck ON. The second problem is that I can?t get the input to read the maximum positive of 7Fh (excluding the seemingly stuck bit7). The version of the schematic I downloaded isn?t a very good scan, and doesn?t seem to be the same revision as my board (because the adjustment pots have different reference numbers). There are a few common chips that touch bit7 (like the LS367) which I can swap, but the others, like the AM2502 successive approximation converter, isn?t as common. So before I go swapping chips, does this board have any common failure mode I should be looking for? Thanks! Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jul 10 16:43:05 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 17:43:05 -0400 Subject: appraisals In-Reply-To: References: <4E16871F.5070004@snarc.net> <4E17A6A2.6000307@snarc.net> <4E18CF05.9020409@snarc.net> Message-ID: > Will declares his scope as larger than just vintage computing, but in > my book he qualifies. I could (and think others could) make a living dealing in vintage computing exclusively, but choose not to limit myself. There is no sense to turning away money selling other old technology. No shame - I will sell Hummels if I run into them. -- Will From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Jul 10 16:53:14 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 14:53:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: appraisals In-Reply-To: References: <4E16871F.5070004@snarc.net> <4E17A6A2.6000307@snarc.net> <4E18CF05.9020409@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Jul 2011, William Donzelli wrote: >> Will declares his scope as larger than just vintage computing, but in >> my book he qualifies. > > I could (and think others could) make a living dealing in vintage > computing exclusively, but choose not to limit myself. There is no > sense to turning away money selling other old technology. > > No shame - I will sell Hummels if I run into them. I've done that too. No problem! -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jul 10 17:29:26 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 18:29:26 -0400 Subject: HP disk power unit Message-ID: Today I scored an obscene collection of TTL and ECL chips, in a weird sight unseen sale (the guy was selling the parts drawers as drawers, and would NOT let buyers see what parts were inside!), but that is not the point of this post. Well, maybe I am yanking the chains of all those people that say TTL and ECL is getting hard to find. ANYWAY... Also scored was a power unit to an HP 7900A disk - the 14 inch unit from the 2100A and friends. Very nice condition, and heavy as sin. I do not need it, but it was sitting there so forgotten and lonely. Does anyone need one of these supplies? Very nice condition. I forget the HP number - 13mumblefooA. I really do not want to ship it, but could deliver it to MIT or any of the other area hamfests. -- Will, in 10512 From evan at snarc.net Sun Jul 10 19:05:14 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 20:05:14 -0400 Subject: appraisals In-Reply-To: References: <4E16871F.5070004@snarc.net> <4E17A6A2.6000307@snarc.net> <4E18CF05.9020409@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4E1A3E3A.8060203@snarc.net> Richard: I tried sending you a private reply but it bounced. Something about your server doesn't like mine ... From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jul 10 19:17:52 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 20:17:52 -0400 Subject: [OT (WAY!)] First flight... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E1A4130.1010204@neurotica.com> On 7/8/11 9:08 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx5eb5yTDQw Ok, that seriously rocks. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Jul 10 07:23:25 2011 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 08:23:25 -0400 Subject: h11 manuals Message-ID: > From:?Adrian Stoness > Date:?Fri, 8 Jul 2011 12:11:57 -0500 > Subject:?h11 manuals > curently spending an hr a day scanning heathkit h11 manuals so far scaned 4 > seconds of the software referance manual if anyones interested > > http://pointdouglas.com/SEBHC/H11/?M=A Thanks for scanning the manuals. The RICM has an H-11 in the restoration queue. Any chance you have the H-11 schematics? -- Michael Thompson From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jul 10 19:30:56 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 17:30:56 -0700 Subject: Lisa Priam interface card Message-ID: <4E1A4440.9020506@bitsavers.org> little chance, I know, but did anyone here get this card? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160609988271 From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Sun Jul 10 19:41:26 2011 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 10:41:26 +1000 Subject: Lisa Priam interface card In-Reply-To: <4E1A4440.9020506@bitsavers.org> References: <4E1A4440.9020506@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > little chance, I know, but did anyone here get this card? > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160609988271 Based on the Score of the winning bidder (8094) it matches the score of VintageMicros, a well known recycler of Apple gear http://myworld.ebay.com/vintagemicros From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jul 10 20:33:07 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 18:33:07 -0700 Subject: Lisa Priam interface card In-Reply-To: References: <4E1A4440.9020506@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E1A52D3.8030203@bitsavers.org> On 7/10/11 5:41 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: > On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> little chance, I know, but did anyone here get this card? >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160609988271 > > Based on the Score of the winning bidder (8094) it matches the score > of VintageMicros, a well known recycler of Apple gear > > http://myworld.ebay.com/vintagemicros > > makes sense. I'll try emailing John. From george at rachors.com Sun Jul 10 21:39:38 2011 From: george at rachors.com (george at rachors.com) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 19:39:38 -0700 Subject: [OT (WAY!)] First flight... In-Reply-To: <4E1A4130.1010204@neurotica.com> References: <4E1A4130.1010204@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Triple what Dave said... Very cool! George george at rachors.com > On 7/8/11 9:08 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx5eb5yTDQw > > Ok, that seriously rocks. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon Jul 11 00:40:54 2011 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 07:40:54 +0200 Subject: available M9404 / M9405 In-Reply-To: References: <04bcf885b39dbf74462fc29f01ce024a.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <643155dde9a44d12d71c9a02f3881693.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hello Sergio, No problem. I prefer an IBAN (Interbank) transaction. Or, if you prefer to pay with Paypal, that is ok too, but I'll have to ask Eur 4 extra to cover for paypal charges. A third option is to send cash, but only if you think it is safe enough. I'll pack the 2 cards and have them weighted. If I can keep the weight below 2Kg, postage is Eur 8,70, so the total will then be either 28,70 (IBAN) or 32,70 (paypal) depending on your way of payment. Please send me your address to where it needs to be sent. Kind regards, Ed > I should like to get them, Ed. Let me know of to pay you. > > Regards > Sergio Pedraja > > 2011/7/10 E. Groenenberg > >> >> Found during sorting out some boxes, a M9404 (Q22 cable connector) >> and a M9405 (Q22 cable connector mirror image). Both are in good nick >> (no broken of latches) and each card has 2 50pin berg connector sockets >> on them. >> >> I would like to get Eur 20 + postage for it. >> I'm in the Netherlands btw. >> >> -- >> Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. >> >> > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon Jul 11 02:09:55 2011 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 09:09:55 +0200 Subject: available M9404 / M9405 In-Reply-To: <643155dde9a44d12d71c9a02f3881693.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <04bcf885b39dbf74462fc29f01ce024a.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <643155dde9a44d12d71c9a02f3881693.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Oops, that was meant to be private.... > Hello Sergio, > > No problem. I prefer an IBAN (Interbank) transaction. Or, if you prefer > to pay with Paypal, that is ok too, but I'll have to ask Eur 4 extra > to cover for paypal charges. > A third option is to send cash, but only if you think it is safe enough. > > I'll pack the 2 cards and have them weighted. If I can keep the weight > below 2Kg, postage is Eur 8,70, so the total will then be either 28,70 > (IBAN) or 32,70 (paypal) depending on your way of payment. > > Please send me your address to where it needs to be sent. > > Kind regards, > > Ed > >> I should like to get them, Ed. Let me know of to pay you. >> >> Regards >> Sergio Pedraja >> >> 2011/7/10 E. Groenenberg >> >>> >>> Found during sorting out some boxes, a M9404 (Q22 cable connector) >>> and a M9405 (Q22 cable connector mirror image). Both are in good nick >>> (no broken of latches) and each card has 2 50pin berg connector sockets >>> on them. >>> >>> I would like to get Eur 20 + postage for it. >>> I'm in the Netherlands btw. >>> >>> -- >>> Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. >>> >>> >> > > > -- > Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. > > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From spedraja at ono.com Mon Jul 11 02:18:13 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 09:18:13 +0200 Subject: available M9404 / M9405 In-Reply-To: References: <04bcf885b39dbf74462fc29f01ce024a.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <643155dde9a44d12d71c9a02f3881693.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: No problem ;-) Gr. Sergio 2011/7/11 E. Groenenberg > > Oops, that was meant to be private.... > > > Hello Sergio, > > > > No problem. I prefer an IBAN (Interbank) transaction. Or, if you prefer > > to pay with Paypal, that is ok too, but I'll have to ask Eur 4 extra > > to cover for paypal charges. > > A third option is to send cash, but only if you think it is safe enough. > > > > I'll pack the 2 cards and have them weighted. If I can keep the weight > > below 2Kg, postage is Eur 8,70, so the total will then be either 28,70 > > (IBAN) or 32,70 (paypal) depending on your way of payment. > > > > Please send me your address to where it needs to be sent. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Ed > > > >> I should like to get them, Ed. Let me know of to pay you. > >> > >> Regards > >> Sergio Pedraja > >> > >> 2011/7/10 E. Groenenberg > >> > >>> > >>> Found during sorting out some boxes, a M9404 (Q22 cable connector) > >>> and a M9405 (Q22 cable connector mirror image). Both are in good nick > >>> (no broken of latches) and each card has 2 50pin berg connector sockets > >>> on them. > >>> > >>> I would like to get Eur 20 + postage for it. > >>> I'm in the Netherlands btw. > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > > > -- > > Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. > > > > > > > -- > Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. > > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Jul 11 09:55:10 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 09:55:10 -0500 Subject: h11 manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: prolly On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 7:23 AM, Michael Thompson < michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote: > > From: Adrian Stoness > > Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2011 12:11:57 -0500 > > Subject: h11 manuals > > curently spending an hr a day scanning heathkit h11 manuals so far scaned > 4 > > seconds of the software referance manual if anyones interested > > > > http://pointdouglas.com/SEBHC/H11/?M=A > > Thanks for scanning the manuals. The RICM has an H-11 in the restoration > queue. > > Any chance you have the H-11 schematics? > > -- > Michael Thompson > From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 10:02:16 2011 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 08:02:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay Message-ID: <1310396536.49783.YahooMailClassic@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I can tell you I wont pay $1000 for it.. http://cgi.ebay.com/SBC-6120-Full-Kit-FP6120-FP-Finishing-Kit-VT6-Kit-/140573449650 From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Jul 11 10:05:33 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 12:05:33 -0300 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay References: <1310396536.49783.YahooMailClassic@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <52BB9786E723475283C970AADD1E9ED6@portajara> >I can tell you I wont pay $1000 for it.. > http://cgi.ebay.com/SBC-6120-Full-Kit-FP6120-FP-Finishing-Kit-VT6-Kit-/140573449650 Make me laugh... From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jul 11 12:40:22 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 10:40:22 -0700 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <52BB9786E723475283C970AADD1E9ED6@portajara> References: <1310396536.49783.YahooMailClassic@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <52BB9786E723475283C970AADD1E9ED6@portajara> Message-ID: <4E1B3586.7040105@bitsavers.org> On 7/11/11 8:05 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I can tell you I wont pay $1000 for it.. >> http://cgi.ebay.com/SBC-6120-Full-Kit-FP6120-FP-Finishing-Kit-VT6-Kit-/140573449650 > > Make me laugh... > Check the original 2009 prices on these kits before you start laughing. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jul 11 12:56:07 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 11:56:07 -0600 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <52BB9786E723475283C970AADD1E9ED6@portajara> References: <1310396536.49783.YahooMailClassic@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <52BB9786E723475283C970AADD1E9ED6@portajara> Message-ID: <4E1B3937.9020308@jetnet.ab.ca> On 7/11/2011 9:05 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I can tell you I wont pay $1000 for it.. >> http://cgi.ebay.com/SBC-6120-Full-Kit-FP6120-FP-Finishing-Kit-VT6-Kit-/140573449650 >> > > Make me laugh... > OK 1000 octal cents ... From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Jul 11 12:46:41 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 14:46:41 -0300 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay References: <1310396536.49783.YahooMailClassic@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><52BB9786E723475283C970AADD1E9ED6@portajara> <4E1B3586.7040105@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <8EA5018AE3054CB6B66B70645D05A847@portajara> >> Make me laugh... > Check the original 2009 prices on these kits before you start laughing. May I laugh on original prices too? :) (ok, I understand the guys from STG are nice, I understand it is a niche product, I understand it has to be expensive, I understand everything, but please understand my right of laughing on these prices :oD) From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jul 11 13:03:06 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 14:03:06 -0400 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4E1B3586.7040105@bitsavers.org> References: <1310396536.49783.YahooMailClassic@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <52BB9786E723475283C970AADD1E9ED6@portajara> <4E1B3586.7040105@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5940D084-0185-4DA1-8FF0-77E32D88F24A@neurotica.com> Yeah really. He'll no doubt get his $1000. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL On Jul 11, 2011, at 1:40 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 7/11/11 8:05 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> I can tell you I wont pay $1000 for it.. >>> http://cgi.ebay.com/SBC-6120-Full-Kit-FP6120-FP-Finishing-Kit-VT6-Kit-/140573449650 >> >> Make me laugh... >> > > Check the original 2009 prices on these kits before you start laughing. > > From ball.of.john at gmail.com Mon Jul 11 13:57:23 2011 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (john ball) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 11:57:23 -0700 Subject: Unibus Framebuffer information needed (DDS) Message-ID: By luck I stumbled across what may or may not be a complete hex-width Unibus framebuffer board set made by Dynamic Digital Displays. Now that would be cool in the PDP-11/84. :) I can identify three of the boards but not all of them: -FB1000FBL001 Serial 55 Rev. 2 (looks to be the main memory as well as the D/A logic to output to RGB) -1000VB-001 Serial 35 (calls itself the "Voxel Buffer") -1000CTD001 Serial 47 (calls itself the "CTU Board") These boards can be seen at the following link: http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/Computer%20related/100_2060.jpg Then there were two other boards that the seller had as well. They may be related to the previous three and they also might not be. -1000HIL001 Serial 45 (board calls itself "HI") - http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/Computer%20related/100_2061.jpg -1000DTD001 Serial 54 (calls itself "DOTS") - http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/Computer%20related/100_2063.jpg Unlike the first three boards, these ones have "Dynamic Digital Displays" on them, however the model numbers are similar on their structure. The unfortunate part is that these boards have connectors on them ("HI" board has three 40-pin ribbon cable headers, "DOTS" has two 50-pin ribbon cable headers) so either I'm missing more boards that that talked through their own bus and not the Unibus, these connectors are for options, or there is additional hardware/cards I am missing. I have no way to read the two TMS27C512 EPROM chips and Google has pretty much nothing about these boards that I can locate and their hand written serial numbers mean these are something special. Might anyone have further information on this? From jws at jwsss.com Mon Jul 11 14:02:50 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 12:02:50 -0700 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <5940D084-0185-4DA1-8FF0-77E32D88F24A@neurotica.com> References: <1310396536.49783.YahooMailClassic@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <52BB9786E723475283C970AADD1E9ED6@portajara> <4E1B3586.7040105@bitsavers.org> <5940D084-0185-4DA1-8FF0-77E32D88F24A@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E1B48DA.9090905@jwsss.com> Way cheaper than most 8's available, and hangs on the wall. And he is throwing in his terminal. So once complete you have a function blinking light panel equipped 8 with storage, and all you do is attach ps2 keyboard and vga monitor, and you are running. I'm thinking $1000 is a good deal (and yet, I have one) He also had the "extras" package, and the extra I/O board, so this isn't just the SBC and panel at all. Jim On 7/11/2011 11:03 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Yeah really. He'll no doubt get his $1000. > > -Dave > From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 14:24:10 2011 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 12:24:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay Message-ID: <1310412250.63395.YahooMailClassic@web113504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I cannot find the original price on the unit so I cannot compare. I went to the wayback machine looking for the pricing and all the pages list "sold out" The seller should be happy I found this and posted. Someone should be interested. I myself am saving for a Mimeo from Willegal From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Jul 11 15:44:01 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 15:44:01 -0500 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <1310412250.63395.YahooMailClassic@web113504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1310412250.63395.YahooMailClassic@web113504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: why would i buy that when i have a pdp8 lol On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 2:24 PM, Christian Liendo < christian_liendo at yahoo.com> wrote: > I cannot find the original price on the unit so I cannot compare. > I went to the wayback machine looking for the pricing and all the pages > list "sold out" > > The seller should be happy I found this and posted. Someone should be > interested. > > I myself am saving for a Mimeo from Willegal > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Jul 11 16:01:07 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 14:01:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4E1B48DA.9090905@jwsss.com> References: <1310396536.49783.YahooMailClassic@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <52BB9786E723475283C970AADD1E9ED6@portajara> <4E1B3586.7040105@bitsavers.org> <5940D084-0185-4DA1-8FF0-77E32D88F24A@neurotica.com> <4E1B48DA.9090905@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Jul 2011, jim s wrote: > Way cheaper than most 8's available, and hangs on the wall. And he is > throwing in his terminal. So once complete you have a function blinking > light panel equipped 8 with storage, and all you do is attach ps2 keyboard > and vga monitor, and you are running. > > I'm thinking $1000 is a good deal (and yet, I have one) > > He also had the "extras" package, and the extra I/O board, so this isn't just > the SBC and panel at all. Notice that the kit is missing the panel switches. I don't have any of those left. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 11 16:10:41 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 22:10:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP disk power unit In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jul 10, 11 06:29:26 pm Message-ID: > Also scored was a power unit to an HP 7900A disk - the 14 inch unit > from the 2100A and friends. Very nice condition, and heavy as sin. I > do not need it, but it was sitting there so forgotten and lonely. > > Does anyone need one of these supplies? Very nice condition. I forget > the HP number - 13mumblefooA. I really do not want to ship it, but > could deliver it to MIT or any of the other area hamfests. Why di things like this always have ot be on the worng side of the Pond. I have an 7900A with no PSU, but no way could I consider having something like this shipped... -tony From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Jul 11 16:58:36 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 23:58:36 +0200 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <1310396536.49783.YahooMailClassic@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <52BB9786E723475283C970AADD1E9ED6@portajara> <4E1B3586.7040105@bitsavers.org> <5940D084-0185-4DA1-8FF0-77E32D88F24A@neurotica.com> <4E1B48DA.9090905@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20110711215836.GA14884@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 02:01:07PM -0700, David Griffith wrote: > Notice that the kit is missing the panel switches. I don't have any > of those left. >From the auction: "This listing includes: The full SBC-6120 kit, the FP-6120 Front Panel kit with black switches" Sound like switches are indeed included. It looks very complete, I'm tempted and I do have an 8/e. /P From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Jul 11 17:07:22 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 15:07:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20110711215836.GA14884@Update.UU.SE> References: <1310396536.49783.YahooMailClassic@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <52BB9786E723475283C970AADD1E9ED6@portajara> <4E1B3586.7040105@bitsavers.org> <5940D084-0185-4DA1-8FF0-77E32D88F24A@neurotica.com> <4E1B48DA.9090905@jwsss.com> <20110711215836.GA14884@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Jul 2011, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 02:01:07PM -0700, David Griffith wrote: >> Notice that the kit is missing the panel switches. I don't have any >> of those left. > >> From the auction: > > "This listing includes: The full SBC-6120 kit, the FP-6120 Front Panel kit with > black switches" > > Sound like switches are indeed included. It looks very complete, I'm tempted > and I do have an 8/e. Ah. Now I see them. Anyhow, I got my SBC6120 and FP6120 back when Bob announced last call on them. Still waiting for the IOB6120 to be built and I need to figure out how to make a wooden frame with which to hang the whole thing on the wall. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From doc at vaxen.net Mon Jul 11 17:22:36 2011 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 17:22:36 -0500 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <1310412250.63395.YahooMailClassic@web113504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E1B77AC.30205@vaxen.net> On 7/11/11 3:44 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > why would i buy that when i have a pdp8 lol Because they're fun? http://www.docsbox.net/SBC6120/ Doc From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 11 17:27:33 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 18:27:33 -0400 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <1310396536.49783.YahooMailClassic@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <52BB9786E723475283C970AADD1E9ED6@portajara> <4E1B3586.7040105@bitsavers.org> <5940D084-0185-4DA1-8FF0-77E32D88F24A@neurotica.com> <4E1B48DA.9090905@jwsss.com> <20110711215836.GA14884@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 6:07 PM, David Griffith wrote: > I need to figure out how to make a wooden frame with which to hang the whole > thing on the wall. I found a hunk of suitable wood and used a table saw to cut a 45 degree bevel in the face and a 1/8" notch to hole the plexi. A bit of measuring and work with a power mitre saw gave me a box frame, then I cut out access notches for the CF card and IOB6120 cables with a jig saw, and drilled a large hole to admit the wall wart power connector. (one of the links I posted back on 9 June) http://www.flickr.com/photos/chiclassiccomp/5009099653/in/photostream -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jul 11 19:58:46 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 18:58:46 -0600 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20110711215836.GA14884@Update.UU.SE> References: <1310396536.49783.YahooMailClassic@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <52BB9786E723475283C970AADD1E9ED6@portajara> <4E1B3586.7040105@bitsavers.org> <5940D084-0185-4DA1-8FF0-77E32D88F24A@neurotica.com> <4E1B48DA.9090905@jwsss.com> <20110711215836.GA14884@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4E1B9C46.60704@jetnet.ab.ca> On 7/11/2011 3:58 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 02:01:07PM -0700, David Griffith wrote: >> Notice that the kit is missing the panel switches. I don't have any >> of those left. > >> From the auction: > > "This listing includes: The full SBC-6120 kit, the FP-6120 Front Panel kit with > black switches" > > Sound like switches are indeed included. It looks very complete, I'm tempted > and I do have an 8/e. > > /P > What !? A three computer household ... The 8/e, SBC-6120 and the phone you're reading the email on. From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Jul 11 20:17:18 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 21:17:18 -0400 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4E1B9C46.60704@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <1310396536.49783.YahooMailClassic@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <52BB9786E723475283C970AADD1E9ED6@portajara> <4E1B3586.7040105@bitsavers.org> <5940D084-0185-4DA1-8FF0-77E32D88F24A@neurotica.com> <4E1B48DA.9090905@jwsss.com> <20110711215836.GA14884@Update.UU.SE> <4E1B9C46.60704@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4E1BA09E.5020509@verizon.net> On 07/11/2011 08:58 PM, ben wrote: > On 7/11/2011 3:58 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 02:01:07PM -0700, David Griffith wrote: >>> Notice that the kit is missing the panel switches. I don't have any >>> of those left. >> >>> From the auction: >> >> "This listing includes: The full SBC-6120 kit, the FP-6120 Front >> Panel kit with >> black switches" >> >> Sound like switches are indeed included. It looks very complete, I'm >> tempted >> and I do have an 8/e. >> >> /P >> > > What !? A three computer household ... The 8/e, SBC-6120 and the phone > you're reading the email on. > Nope a 3 computer household is PDP-8F, microPDP11/53, and a few VAXen, PCs don't count but the NS* horizon z80 system does. Allison From g-wright at att.net Mon Jul 11 20:29:57 2011 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 18:29:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP 11/53 XXDP ZRQC?? on 5 1/4 floppy needed Message-ID: <1310434197.18734.YahooMailRC@web83803.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I have a friend that needs this set up to test some Hard Drives and get his system going. Anyone out there that have a Floppy that they could image with image disk and send me. Thanks, Jerry Jerry Wright JLC inc g-wright at att.net From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jul 11 22:09:59 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 04:09:59 +0100 Subject: Identifying the Surge Suppression Resistor in PDP11 H7140 PSU Message-ID: <01f301cc4041$320dd140$962973c0$@ntlworld.com> Work is continuing on repairing the H7140 PSU from my PDP11/24. Now it seems that the surge suppression resistor across the relay has failed. This resistor is marked as R1 on the printset (p66 and p69) but actually is two components connected in series. The parts list on p71 of the printset lists a 3ohm 7W 5% resistor, but it is not 100% clear if this is supposed to be the surge suppression resistor, although it does seem likely. The thing is I measured the resistance of the two resistors (in-circuit), one was open circuit and clearly the failed component, the other measured 10ohms, it might be failing too I suppose. The two resistors are marked KCC 13-17198-00 8234. I have not been able to find any information on them, so I can't verify the spec and I don't know what to replace them with. Does anyone have any information on these resistors? Thanks Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jul 11 22:41:53 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 04:41:53 +0100 Subject: Identifying the Surge Suppression Resistor in PDP11 H7140 PSU In-Reply-To: <01f301cc4041$320dd140$962973c0$@ntlworld.com> References: <01f301cc4041$320dd140$962973c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <01f401cc4045$a5dfa400$f19eec00$@ntlworld.com> I used the wrong term I think, inrush limiter is the right one. Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > Sent: 12 July 2011 04:10 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Identifying the Surge Suppression Resistor in PDP11 H7140 PSU > > Work is continuing on repairing the H7140 PSU from my PDP11/24. > > Now it seems that the surge suppression resistor across the relay has failed. > This resistor is marked as R1 on the printset (p66 and p69) but actually is two > components connected in series. The parts list on p71 of the printset lists a > 3ohm 7W 5% resistor, but it is not 100% clear if this is supposed to be the > surge suppression resistor, although it does seem likely. > The thing is I measured the resistance of the two resistors (in-circuit), one was > open circuit and clearly the failed component, the other measured 10ohms, it > might be failing too I suppose. > > The two resistors are marked KCC 13-17198-00 8234. I have not been able to > find any information on them, so I can't verify the spec and I don't know what > to replace them with. Does anyone have any information on these resistors? > > Thanks > > Rob From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 00:56:51 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 06:56:51 +0100 Subject: Identifying the Surge Suppression Resistor in PDP11 H7140 PSU In-Reply-To: <01f401cc4045$a5dfa400$f19eec00$@ntlworld.com> References: <01f301cc4041$320dd140$962973c0$@ntlworld.com> <01f401cc4045$a5dfa400$f19eec00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Is this where a later/earlier version of the manual is needed? Dave Caroline On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 4:41 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I used the wrong term I think, inrush limiter is the right one. > > Rob > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt >> Sent: 12 July 2011 04:10 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Identifying the Surge Suppression Resistor in PDP11 H7140 PSU >> >> Work is continuing on repairing the H7140 PSU from my PDP11/24. >> >> Now it seems that the surge suppression resistor across the relay has > failed. >> This resistor is marked as R1 on the printset (p66 and p69) but actually > is two >> components connected in series. The parts list on p71 of the printset > lists a >> 3ohm 7W 5% resistor, but it is not 100% clear if this is supposed to be > the >> surge suppression resistor, although it does seem likely. >> The thing is I measured the resistance of the two resistors (in-circuit), > one was >> open circuit and clearly the failed component, the other measured 10ohms, > it >> might be failing too I suppose. >> >> The two resistors are marked KCC 13-17198-00 8234. I have not been able to >> find any information on them, so I can't verify the spec and I don't know > what >> to replace them with. Does anyone have any information on these resistors? >> >> Thanks >> >> Rob > > From CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie Mon Jul 11 13:28:02 2011 From: CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 19:28:02 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Microprocessor simulators Message-ID: <01O3J2KN7FQY0033KR@beyondthepale.ie> A while back, there was a brief discussion on the list about microprocessor simulators running on larger systems. Some interest was expressed in the simulators I was involved with some years ago. I've put together some details and some code here: Z80 simulator in FORTRAN IV for the MUSIC/SP IBM mainframe operating system http://software.beyondthepale.ie/music/z80/ 6502 / BBC Microcomputer simulator in FORTRAN and 370 assembly for MUSIC/SP http://software.beyondthepale.ie/music/y6502/ 6502 / BBC Microcomputer simulator in FORTRAN and VAX assembly for VAX/VMS http://software.beyondthepale.ie/vms/y6502/ All the bits and pieces are provided to run the first two simulators on the freely available "MUSIC/SP Demo system" running on Sim390 or Hercules and the latter one on any reasonable VAX/VMS platform or simulator. The original unmodified code is also there. With the addition of a BBC Micro BASIC ROM, it is possible to run text based BASIC programs such as http://software.beyondthepale.ie/bbcmicro/survival/ (an adventure game) on the latter two simulators. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon Jul 11 20:15:14 2011 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 21:15:14 -0400 Subject: h11 manuals Message-ID: > On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 7:23 AM, Michael Thompson < > michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Thanks for scanning the manuals. The RICM has an H-11 in the restoration >> queue. >> >> Any chance you have the H-11 schematics? >> > Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 09:55:10 -0500 > Subject: Re: h11 manuals > prolly Any chance you could scan and post them? -- Michael Thompson From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jul 12 09:03:34 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 07:03:34 -0700 Subject: Identifying the Surge Suppression Resistor in PDP11 H7140 PSU In-Reply-To: <01f401cc4045$a5dfa400$f19eec00$@ntlworld.com> References: <01f301cc4041$320dd140$962973c0$@ntlworld.com>, <01f401cc4045$a5dfa400$f19eec00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Hi I think you are talking about a dampenning resistor. This is placed in parallel with the coil. The resistance is usually equal to or somewhat larger than the coils resistance. Coils like to keep current flowing and don't like having the current source broken quickly. The voltage would go up until something arced or broke down. The choice of resistor would be determined by how quickly one wanted the relay to release. Although, counter intuitive, a smaller value of resistance would prolong the time for the relay to release. A higher value would cause the release to be sooner. The higher value resistor would also create a higher voltage across the resistor. At the instance the drive is removed, the same current that was running through the coil is now running through the resistor at that instant. This voltage adds to the source voltage and is the voltage that the transistor ( if from a transistor ) has to hold off. If the source voltage was 12V and it was an equal value resistor, the transistor would have to take 24V when the relay was turned off. Make sense? Dwight > From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com > > I used the wrong term I think, inrush limiter is the right one. > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > > Sent: 12 July 2011 04:10 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Identifying the Surge Suppression Resistor in PDP11 H7140 PSU > > > > Work is continuing on repairing the H7140 PSU from my PDP11/24. > > > > Now it seems that the surge suppression resistor across the relay has > failed. > > This resistor is marked as R1 on the printset (p66 and p69) but actually > is two > > components connected in series. The parts list on p71 of the printset > lists a > > 3ohm 7W 5% resistor, but it is not 100% clear if this is supposed to be > the > > surge suppression resistor, although it does seem likely. > > The thing is I measured the resistance of the two resistors (in-circuit), > one was > > open circuit and clearly the failed component, the other measured 10ohms, > it > > might be failing too I suppose. > > > > The two resistors are marked KCC 13-17198-00 8234. I have not been able to > > find any information on them, so I can't verify the spec and I don't know > what > > to replace them with. Does anyone have any information on these resistors? > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 11:58:07 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 11:58:07 -0500 Subject: h11 manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: any specific ones you looking for? heres the trouble shooting chapter from the operation manaual http://pointdouglas.com/SEBHC/H11/operation%20manual/H11-operation-manual005.pdf On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 8:15 PM, Michael Thompson < michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote: > > On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 7:23 AM, Michael Thompson < > > michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> Thanks for scanning the manuals. The RICM has an H-11 in the restoration > >> queue. > >> > >> Any chance you have the H-11 schematics? > >> > > Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 09:55:10 -0500 > > Subject: Re: h11 manuals > > prolly > > Any chance you could scan and post them? > > -- > Michael Thompson > From david at classiccomputing.com Tue Jul 12 12:23:33 2011 From: david at classiccomputing.com (David Greelish) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 12:23:33 -0500 Subject: My book project at kickstarter.com In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49e0abdf83b026235acddacccda61841.squirrel@emailmg.netfirms.com> Hi everyone, Please consider checking out the book publication funding at - http://t.co/8iSzNKF Please help spread the word, "like" it on Facebook and tweet it. Oh, um, maybe even buy a book? Thanks! Best, David Greelish, Computer Historian President, Atlanta Historical Computing Society Classic Computing The Home of Computer History Nostalgia http://www.classiccomputing.com Classic Computing Blog Classic Computing Show video podcast "Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer" audiobook podcast Retro Computing Roundtable podcast From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 12:28:47 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 12:28:47 -0500 Subject: My book project at kickstarter.com In-Reply-To: <49e0abdf83b026235acddacccda61841.squirrel@emailmg.netfirms.com> References: <49e0abdf83b026235acddacccda61841.squirrel@emailmg.netfirms.com> Message-ID: kool On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 12:23 PM, David Greelish wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Please consider checking out the book publication funding at - > http://t.co/8iSzNKF > > Please help spread the word, "like" it on Facebook and tweet it. > > Oh, um, maybe even buy a book? Thanks! > > Best, > > David Greelish, Computer Historian > President, Atlanta Historical Computing Society > > Classic Computing > The Home of Computer History Nostalgia > http://www.classiccomputing.com > > Classic Computing Blog > Classic Computing Show video podcast > "Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer" audiobook podcast > Retro Computing Roundtable podcast > > > From bli at psu.edu Tue Jul 12 12:58:31 2011 From: bli at psu.edu (Jeff Brendle) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 13:58:31 -0400 Subject: Anyone interested in IBM PC/RT gear? (located in PA USA) Message-ID: I wasn't sure if there might be any parties on the list who would be interested in old (late 80s/early 90s) vintage IBM PC/RT gear. Also of potential interest to collectors of the later PowerPC gear as this was the predecessor. I have several items that may be of interest to hobbyist/collectors and I really do not have the space for them but also have no desire to see things end up in the dump if they can find a good home. Any interest at all? I do not have a current inventory but I know I have ... a couple PC/RT 6150 server towers (worked after Y2K, haven't run them much since) a couple PC/RT 6152 minitowers (based on a PS/2 Mod 60 w/ add-on RISC cpu card, think I have one or two that work & another "shell" for parts) a pair of streaming tape drives (one working, one I don't remember trying recently) various monitors, keyboards, mice, tablets, & cards and so forth (some working, some may need repair) documentation/software binders for AIX and AOS (BSD) ... if anyone is interested, I can get you an inventory in a few days' time with more details. I would be looking for someone to take the whole lot I think, rather than unload some things & still be faced with the prospect of sending these off to the dump for lack of space anyway. And ideally someone who would try to get the old parts back into a functional state or as a "museum piece" or something like that rather than melting it down for gold. Not looking for any money, my monetary investment was paid off by several good years of use over a decade ago. Definitely a "come and get it" as these are old, heavy and I doubt that they'd be worth while to ship. If you are at all interested, let me know -- Thanks! -j Jeff Brendle Office: 243 Deike/(814)865-3257/fax 865-3191 Desktop Support Spv. Home: 146 Haverford Circle Penn State - Coll. of E&MS State College, PA / (814)238-8811 Mailto:bli at psu.edu AOL/MSN/Yahoo! IM - JSBrendle From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 13:03:35 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 13:03:35 -0500 Subject: Anyone interested in IBM PC/RT gear? (located in PA USA) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: industrial stuff??? On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 12:58 PM, Jeff Brendle wrote: > I wasn't sure if there might be any parties on the list who would be > interested in old (late 80s/early 90s) vintage IBM PC/RT gear. Also of > potential interest to collectors of the later PowerPC gear as this was the > predecessor. I have several items that may be of interest to > hobbyist/collectors and I really do not have the space for them but also > have no desire to see things end up in the dump if they can find a good > home. Any interest at all? > > I do not have a current inventory but I know I have ... > a couple PC/RT 6150 server towers (worked after Y2K, haven't run them much > since) > a couple PC/RT 6152 minitowers (based on a PS/2 Mod 60 w/ add-on RISC cpu > card, think I have one or two that work & another "shell" for parts) > a pair of streaming tape drives (one working, one I don't remember trying > recently) > various monitors, keyboards, mice, tablets, & cards and so forth (some > working, some may need repair) > documentation/software binders for AIX and AOS (BSD) > ... if anyone is interested, I can get you an inventory in a few days' time > with more details. > > I would be looking for someone to take the whole lot I think, rather than > unload some things & still be faced with the prospect of sending these off > to the dump for lack of space anyway. And ideally someone who would try to > get the old parts back into a functional state or as a "museum piece" or > something like that rather than melting it down for gold. Not looking for > any money, my monetary investment was paid off by several good years of use > over a decade ago. Definitely a "come and get it" as these are old, heavy > and I doubt that they'd be worth while to ship. > > If you are at all interested, let me know -- Thanks! > -j > > > Jeff Brendle Office: 243 Deike/(814)865-3257/fax 865-3191 > Desktop Support Spv. Home: 146 Haverford Circle > Penn State - Coll. of E&MS State College, PA / (814)238-8811 > Mailto:bli at psu.edu AOL/MSN/Yahoo! IM - JSBrendle > > > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 13:15:27 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 14:15:27 -0400 Subject: VT fixums Message-ID: Just a reminder - this Saturday, just a few days away, RCS will be doing triage on our big pile of VT100s and VT100oids. We need the space! Incoming Cray! Failed VTs will be available for pickup at our open house in Providence, RI (see rcsri.org for directions). I may be able to move a few to the MIT Flea on Sunday. And of course, cash donations are very much appreciated, but not required. But appreciated. Really appreciated... -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 12 13:18:58 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 14:18:58 -0400 Subject: Anyone interested in IBM PC/RT gear? (located in PA USA) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4551965D-F9AE-468E-9F3C-D5DCF1C332F7@neurotica.com> Not really; early desktop RISC workstations. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL On Jul 12, 2011, at 2:03 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > industrial stuff??? > > On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 12:58 PM, Jeff Brendle wrote: > >> I wasn't sure if there might be any parties on the list who would be >> interested in old (late 80s/early 90s) vintage IBM PC/RT gear. Also of >> potential interest to collectors of the later PowerPC gear as this was the >> predecessor. I have several items that may be of interest to >> hobbyist/collectors and I really do not have the space for them but also >> have no desire to see things end up in the dump if they can find a good >> home. Any interest at all? >> >> I do not have a current inventory but I know I have ... >> a couple PC/RT 6150 server towers (worked after Y2K, haven't run them much >> since) >> a couple PC/RT 6152 minitowers (based on a PS/2 Mod 60 w/ add-on RISC cpu >> card, think I have one or two that work & another "shell" for parts) >> a pair of streaming tape drives (one working, one I don't remember trying >> recently) >> various monitors, keyboards, mice, tablets, & cards and so forth (some >> working, some may need repair) >> documentation/software binders for AIX and AOS (BSD) >> ... if anyone is interested, I can get you an inventory in a few days' time >> with more details. >> >> I would be looking for someone to take the whole lot I think, rather than >> unload some things & still be faced with the prospect of sending these off >> to the dump for lack of space anyway. And ideally someone who would try to >> get the old parts back into a functional state or as a "museum piece" or >> something like that rather than melting it down for gold. Not looking for >> any money, my monetary investment was paid off by several good years of use >> over a decade ago. Definitely a "come and get it" as these are old, heavy >> and I doubt that they'd be worth while to ship. >> >> If you are at all interested, let me know -- Thanks! >> -j >> >> >> Jeff Brendle Office: 243 Deike/(814)865-3257/fax 865-3191 >> Desktop Support Spv. Home: 146 Haverford Circle >> Penn State - Coll. of E&MS State College, PA / (814)238-8811 >> Mailto:bli at psu.edu AOL/MSN/Yahoo! IM - JSBrendle >> >> >> >> From vintagecoder at aol.com Tue Jul 12 13:22:36 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 18:22:36 +0000 Subject: Anyone interested in IBM PC/RT gear? (located in PA USA) Message-ID: <2095074524-1310494948-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1012250165-@b2.c1.bise3.blackberry> WOW! You guys sure have a lot of cool stuff! From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Jul 12 13:33:30 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 19:33:30 +0100 Subject: Identifying the Surge Suppression Resistor in PDP11 H7140 PSU In-Reply-To: References: <01f301cc4041$320dd140$962973c0$@ntlworld.com> <01f401cc4045$a5dfa400$f19eec00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Actually I am not sure it does make sense, but then I am not an electronics expert, so I may have this wrong. This resistor is not in parallel with the coil, but connected across the terminals of the relay, ie the terminals the relay is designed to short when it is switched on. The resistor is supposed to limit the current going to the big electrolytic smoothing capacitors that come right after the bridge rectifier and provide enough power for the circuitry to check that the mains is "OK" and then switch on the relay when the capacitors have charged up and connect them directly to the bridge rectifier instead of via the inrush limiter. I hope that makes sense. I still need to know what the spec of these components is so I can find replacements. Regards Rob On 12 July 2011 15:03, dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi > I think you are talking about a dampenning resistor. This is > placed in parallel with the coil. > The resistance is usually equal to or somewhat larger than > the coils resistance. > Coils like to keep current flowing and don't like having the > current source broken quickly. The voltage would go up > until something arced or broke down. > The choice of resistor would be determined by how quickly > one wanted the relay to release. > Although, counter intuitive, a smaller value of resistance > would prolong the time for the relay to release. A higher > value would cause the release to be sooner. > The higher value resistor would also create a higher voltage > across the resistor. > At the instance the drive is removed, the same current that > was running through the coil is now running through the > resistor at that instant. > This voltage adds to the source voltage and is the voltage > that the transistor ( if from a transistor ) has to hold off. > If the source voltage was 12V and it was an equal value > resistor, the transistor would have to take 24V when the > relay was turned off. > Make sense? > Dwight > > > > > From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com > > > > I used the wrong term I think, inrush limiter is the right one. > > > > Rob > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > > > Sent: 12 July 2011 04:10 > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > Subject: Identifying the Surge Suppression Resistor in PDP11 H7140 PSU > > > > > > Work is continuing on repairing the H7140 PSU from my PDP11/24. > > > > > > Now it seems that the surge suppression resistor across the relay has > > failed. > > > This resistor is marked as R1 on the printset (p66 and p69) but > actually > > is two > > > components connected in series. The parts list on p71 of the printset > > lists a > > > 3ohm 7W 5% resistor, but it is not 100% clear if this is supposed to be > > the > > > surge suppression resistor, although it does seem likely. > > > The thing is I measured the resistance of the two resistors > (in-circuit), > > one was > > > open circuit and clearly the failed component, the other measured > 10ohms, > > it > > > might be failing too I suppose. > > > > > > The two resistors are marked KCC 13-17198-00 8234. I have not been able > to > > > find any information on them, so I can't verify the spec and I don't > know > > what > > > to replace them with. Does anyone have any information on these > resistors? > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Rob > > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 12 14:03:05 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 20:03:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4E1B77AC.30205@vaxen.net> from "Doc Shipley" at Jul 11, 11 05:22:36 pm Message-ID: > > On 7/11/11 3:44 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > why would i buy that when i have a pdp8 lol > > Because they're fun? Why would I want a machine based round a hard-to-find microprocessor chip (the 6120) when I can have a more versatile one built from easy to obtain TTL? -tony (looking at a PDP8/e on his desk) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 12 14:06:17 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 20:06:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4E1BA09E.5020509@verizon.net> from "allison" at Jul 11, 11 09:17:18 pm Message-ID: > Nope a 3 computer household is PDP-8F, microPDP11/53, and a few VAXen, Why does 'a few VAXen' only count as one computer (rather than a few computers)? > PCs don't count but the > NS* horizon z80 system does. 3 computer household : HP9810, HP9820, HP9830 ;-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 12 14:12:44 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 20:12:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Identifying the Surge Suppression Resistor in PDP11 H7140 PSU In-Reply-To: <01f301cc4041$320dd140$962973c0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Jul 12, 11 04:09:59 am Message-ID: > > Work is continuing on repairing the H7140 PSU from my PDP11/24. > > Now it seems that the surge suppression resistor across the relay has > failed. This resistor is marked as R1 on the printset (p66 and p69) but > actually is two components connected in series. The parts list on p71 of the > printset lists a 3ohm 7W 5% resistor, but it is not 100% clear if this is > supposed to be the surge suppression resistor, although it does seem likely. THis resisotr is in series wit hthe mains input to the bridge rectifier which supplies those 2 massive electrolytics at the left hand side. It's purpose is to limit the inrush current when you first turn on the supply (and the capacitors are discharged) to prevent damage to the rctifier, blwon fuses, etc. When the bias supply (startup supply) gets going, the relays is eenrgsied, shorting out this resistor. > The thing is I measured the resistance of the two resistors (in-circuit), > one was open circuit and clearly the failed component, the other measured > 10ohms, it might be failing too I suppose. I suspect you have NTC thermistors and not a simple resistor. These components have a higher resistance when cold than when hot. The idea is that they start off cold (high resistance), which limits the current. The current causes them to heat up. and the resistance drops. These are commonly used in SMPSUs (although not with a relay shortign them out when the supply has got going). A look at Farnell, say (search for 'NTC' or 'inrush limiter') will show you several such devices. > > The two resistors are marked KCC 13-17198-00 8234. I have not been able to I susecpt 8234 is a date code. 13-17198-00 looks suspiciously like a DEC part number to me, which is not a lot of help :-( > find any information on them, so I can't verify the spec and I don't know > what to replace them with. Does anyone have any information on these > resistors? The physical dimensions and the 'cold' resistance might be enough to identify a replacement. Alas you can't assume the one that reads 100 Ohms is still good ... I wonder if the supply woudl work with a simple 3 Ohm 7W resistor in place of them as rthe printset shows? -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 12 14:34:32 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 15:34:32 -0400 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E1CA1C8.3000809@neurotica.com> On 7/12/11 3:03 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> why would i buy that when i have a pdp8 lol >> >> Because they're fun? > > Why would I want a machine based round a hard-to-find microprocessor chip > (the 6120) when I can have a more versatile one built from easy to obtain > TTL? > > -tony (looking at a PDP8/e on his desk) Because the SBC6120 runs on a couple of milliwatts. =) (and I still love my DEC-built PDP-8 systems just as much!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 12 14:36:22 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 15:36:22 -0400 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <1310396536.49783.YahooMailClassic@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <52BB9786E723475283C970AADD1E9ED6@portajara> <4E1B3586.7040105@bitsavers.org> <5940D084-0185-4DA1-8FF0-77E32D88F24A@neurotica.com> <4E1B48DA.9090905@jwsss.com> <20110711215836.GA14884@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4E1CA236.6080004@neurotica.com> On 7/11/11 6:07 PM, David Griffith wrote: > announced last call on them. Still waiting for the IOB6120 to be built That's me! =) I've had the parts for something like nine months now, but have been away from home for eight months. I'm starting the move now, and will be set up "for real" soon. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 12 14:36:51 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 15:36:51 -0400 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <1310412250.63395.YahooMailClassic@web113504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E1CA253.4050709@neurotica.com> On 7/11/11 4:44 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > why would i buy that when i have a pdp8 lol Because it's tiny and runs on a battery. And it's cool in its own right. And "real" PDP-8s don't exactly grow on trees. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 14:38:41 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 14:38:41 -0500 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4E1CA253.4050709@neurotica.com> References: <1310412250.63395.YahooMailClassic@web113504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E1CA253.4050709@neurotica.com> Message-ID: i rescued mine from destruction of decay From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 12 14:41:05 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 15:41:05 -0400 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <1310412250.63395.YahooMailClassic@web113504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E1CA253.4050709@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E1CA351.90103@neurotica.com> On 7/12/11 3:38 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > i rescued mine from destruction of decay And the world is a better place for it. PDP-8s are great. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 14:48:25 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 14:48:25 -0500 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4E1CA351.90103@neurotica.com> References: <1310412250.63395.YahooMailClassic@web113504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E1CA253.4050709@neurotica.com> <4E1CA351.90103@neurotica.com> Message-ID: twas a good find almost tried to bike home with it instead i paid a friend 10bucks to come get me :P http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg848/scaled.php?server=848&filename=fisher.jpg&res=medium On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 2:41 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 7/12/11 3:38 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> i rescued mine from destruction of decay >> > > And the world is a better place for it. PDP-8s are great. > > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 14:49:05 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 20:49:05 +0100 Subject: Identifying the Surge Suppression Resistor in PDP11 H7140 PSU In-Reply-To: References: <01f301cc4041$320dd140$962973c0$@ntlworld.com> <01f401cc4045$a5dfa400$f19eec00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: there are two designs of the relay assembly on the H7140 fiche here, the old ones parts list has a Resistor (R1) 3 ohm 5% 7 W 13-14848-00 the new one has a sub assembly on that with thermistor listed as Thermistor 7.0 10% dec part number 13-17198-00 Dave Caroline On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 7:33 PM, Jarratt RMA wrote: > Actually I am not sure it does make sense, but then I am not an electronics > expert, so I may have this wrong. > > This resistor is not in parallel with the coil, but connected across the > terminals of the relay, ie the terminals the relay is designed to short when > it is switched on. The resistor is supposed to limit the current going to > the big electrolytic smoothing capacitors that come right after the bridge > rectifier and provide enough power for the circuitry to check that the mains > is "OK" and then switch on the relay when the capacitors have charged up and > connect them directly to the bridge rectifier instead of via the inrush > limiter. > > I hope that makes sense. > > I still need to know what the spec of these components is so I can find > replacements. > > Regards > > Rob > > On 12 July 2011 15:03, dwight elvey wrote: > >> >> Hi >> ?I think you are talking about a dampenning resistor. This is >> placed in parallel with the coil. >> ?The resistance is usually equal to or somewhat larger than >> the coils resistance. >> ?Coils like to keep current flowing and don't like having the >> current source broken quickly. The voltage would go up >> until something arced or broke down. >> ?The choice of resistor would be determined by how quickly >> one wanted the relay to release. >> ?Although, counter intuitive, a smaller value of resistance >> would prolong the time for the relay to release. A higher >> value would cause the release to be sooner. >> ?The higher value resistor would also create a higher voltage >> across the resistor. >> ?At the instance the drive is removed, the same current that >> was running through the coil is now running through the >> resistor at that instant. >> ?This voltage adds to the source voltage and is the voltage >> that the transistor ( if from a transistor ) has to hold off. >> If the source voltage was 12V and it was an equal value >> resistor, the transistor would have to take 24V when the >> relay was turned off. >> ?Make sense? >> Dwight >> >> >> >> > From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com >> > >> > I used the wrong term I think, inrush limiter is the right one. >> > >> > Rob >> > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt >> > > Sent: 12 July 2011 04:10 >> > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> > > Subject: Identifying the Surge Suppression Resistor in PDP11 H7140 PSU >> > > >> > > Work is continuing on repairing the H7140 PSU from my PDP11/24. >> > > >> > > Now it seems that the surge suppression resistor across the relay has >> > failed. >> > > This resistor is marked as R1 on the printset (p66 and p69) but >> actually >> > is two >> > > components connected in series. The parts list on p71 of the printset >> > lists a >> > > 3ohm 7W 5% resistor, but it is not 100% clear if this is supposed to be >> > the >> > > surge suppression resistor, although it does seem likely. >> > > The thing is I measured the resistance of the two resistors >> (in-circuit), >> > one was >> > > open circuit and clearly the failed component, the other measured >> 10ohms, >> > it >> > > might be failing too I suppose. >> > > >> > > The two resistors are marked KCC 13-17198-00 8234. I have not been able >> to >> > > find any information on them, so I can't verify the spec and I don't >> know >> > what >> > > to replace them with. Does anyone have any information on these >> resistors? >> > > >> > > Thanks >> > > >> > > Rob >> > >> >> > From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 14:53:53 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 16:53:53 -0300 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay References: <1310396536.49783.YahooMailClassic@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <52BB9786E723475283C970AADD1E9ED6@portajara> <4E1B3586.7040105@bitsavers.org> <5940D084-0185-4DA1-8FF0-77E32D88F24A@neurotica.com> <4E1B48DA.9090905@jwsss.com> <20110711215836.GA14884@Update.UU.SE> <4E1CA236.6080004@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > That's me! =) I've had the parts for something like nine months now, > but have been away from home for eight months. I'm starting the move > now, and will be set up "for real" soon. Hope everything goes well with your new move, Dave! :oD From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Jul 12 14:56:30 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 20:56:30 +0100 Subject: Identifying the Surge Suppression Resistor in PDP11 H7140 PSU In-Reply-To: References: <01f301cc4041$320dd140$962973c0$@ntlworld.com> <01f401cc4045$a5dfa400$f19eec00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Ooooohhh, a result! Thanks. Don't suppose you know if there is a PDF of the new printset, I could really do with at least the input assembly and the bias and interface board drawings. Thanks! Rob On 12/07/2011, Dave Caroline wrote: > there are two designs of the relay assembly on the H7140 fiche here, > the old ones parts list has a > Resistor (R1) 3 ohm 5% 7 W 13-14848-00 > > the new one has a sub assembly on that with thermistor listed as > Thermistor 7.0 10% dec part number 13-17198-00 > > Dave Caroline > > On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 7:33 PM, Jarratt RMA > wrote: >> Actually I am not sure it does make sense, but then I am not an >> electronics >> expert, so I may have this wrong. >> >> This resistor is not in parallel with the coil, but connected across the >> terminals of the relay, ie the terminals the relay is designed to short >> when >> it is switched on. The resistor is supposed to limit the current going to >> the big electrolytic smoothing capacitors that come right after the bridge >> rectifier and provide enough power for the circuitry to check that the >> mains >> is "OK" and then switch on the relay when the capacitors have charged up >> and >> connect them directly to the bridge rectifier instead of via the inrush >> limiter. >> >> I hope that makes sense. >> >> I still need to know what the spec of these components is so I can find >> replacements. >> >> Regards >> >> Rob >> >> On 12 July 2011 15:03, dwight elvey wrote: >> >>> >>> Hi >>> ?I think you are talking about a dampenning resistor. This is >>> placed in parallel with the coil. >>> ?The resistance is usually equal to or somewhat larger than >>> the coils resistance. >>> ?Coils like to keep current flowing and don't like having the >>> current source broken quickly. The voltage would go up >>> until something arced or broke down. >>> ?The choice of resistor would be determined by how quickly >>> one wanted the relay to release. >>> ?Although, counter intuitive, a smaller value of resistance >>> would prolong the time for the relay to release. A higher >>> value would cause the release to be sooner. >>> ?The higher value resistor would also create a higher voltage >>> across the resistor. >>> ?At the instance the drive is removed, the same current that >>> was running through the coil is now running through the >>> resistor at that instant. >>> ?This voltage adds to the source voltage and is the voltage >>> that the transistor ( if from a transistor ) has to hold off. >>> If the source voltage was 12V and it was an equal value >>> resistor, the transistor would have to take 24V when the >>> relay was turned off. >>> ?Make sense? >>> Dwight >>> >>> >>> >>> > From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com >>> > >>> > I used the wrong term I think, inrush limiter is the right one. >>> > >>> > Rob >>> > >>> > > -----Original Message----- >>> > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >>> > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt >>> > > Sent: 12 July 2011 04:10 >>> > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> > > Subject: Identifying the Surge Suppression Resistor in PDP11 H7140 >>> > > PSU >>> > > >>> > > Work is continuing on repairing the H7140 PSU from my PDP11/24. >>> > > >>> > > Now it seems that the surge suppression resistor across the relay has >>> > failed. >>> > > This resistor is marked as R1 on the printset (p66 and p69) but >>> actually >>> > is two >>> > > components connected in series. The parts list on p71 of the printset >>> > lists a >>> > > 3ohm 7W 5% resistor, but it is not 100% clear if this is supposed to >>> > > be >>> > the >>> > > surge suppression resistor, although it does seem likely. >>> > > The thing is I measured the resistance of the two resistors >>> (in-circuit), >>> > one was >>> > > open circuit and clearly the failed component, the other measured >>> 10ohms, >>> > it >>> > > might be failing too I suppose. >>> > > >>> > > The two resistors are marked KCC 13-17198-00 8234. I have not been >>> > > able >>> to >>> > > find any information on them, so I can't verify the spec and I don't >>> know >>> > what >>> > > to replace them with. Does anyone have any information on these >>> resistors? >>> > > >>> > > Thanks >>> > > >>> > > Rob >>> > >>> >>> >> > From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 15:14:48 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 21:14:48 +0100 Subject: Identifying the Surge Suppression Resistor in PDP11 H7140 PSU In-Reply-To: References: <01f301cc4041$320dd140$962973c0$@ntlworld.com> <01f401cc4045$a5dfa400$f19eec00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Same old problem I need a decent camera to capture. I think I have found the chinese camera that the expensive fiche scanner uses, its 200$ in the states and over 400? in the UK and I just got raped for car insurance. Ive tried emailing the chineses supplier and am waiting for a reply http://www.tucsen.com/ProductView.asp?id=44 A black and white version could be even better Dave Caroline On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 8:56 PM, Jarratt RMA wrote: > Ooooohhh, a result! Thanks. Don't suppose you know if there is a PDF > of the new printset, I could really do with at least the input > assembly and the bias and interface board drawings. > > Thanks! > > Rob > > On 12/07/2011, Dave Caroline wrote: >> there are two designs of the relay assembly on the H7140 fiche here, >> the old ones parts list has a >> Resistor (R1) 3 ohm 5% 7 W ?13-14848-00 >> >> the new one has a sub assembly on that with thermistor listed as >> Thermistor 7.0 10% dec part number 13-17198-00 >> >> Dave Caroline >> >> On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 7:33 PM, Jarratt RMA >> wrote: >>> Actually I am not sure it does make sense, but then I am not an >>> electronics >>> expert, so I may have this wrong. >>> >>> This resistor is not in parallel with the coil, but connected across the >>> terminals of the relay, ie the terminals the relay is designed to short >>> when >>> it is switched on. The resistor is supposed to limit the current going to >>> the big electrolytic smoothing capacitors that come right after the bridge >>> rectifier and provide enough power for the circuitry to check that the >>> mains >>> is "OK" and then switch on the relay when the capacitors have charged up >>> and >>> connect them directly to the bridge rectifier instead of via the inrush >>> limiter. >>> >>> I hope that makes sense. >>> >>> I still need to know what the spec of these components is so I can find >>> replacements. >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Rob >>> >>> On 12 July 2011 15:03, dwight elvey wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Hi >>>> ?I think you are talking about a dampenning resistor. This is >>>> placed in parallel with the coil. >>>> ?The resistance is usually equal to or somewhat larger than >>>> the coils resistance. >>>> ?Coils like to keep current flowing and don't like having the >>>> current source broken quickly. The voltage would go up >>>> until something arced or broke down. >>>> ?The choice of resistor would be determined by how quickly >>>> one wanted the relay to release. >>>> ?Although, counter intuitive, a smaller value of resistance >>>> would prolong the time for the relay to release. A higher >>>> value would cause the release to be sooner. >>>> ?The higher value resistor would also create a higher voltage >>>> across the resistor. >>>> ?At the instance the drive is removed, the same current that >>>> was running through the coil is now running through the >>>> resistor at that instant. >>>> ?This voltage adds to the source voltage and is the voltage >>>> that the transistor ( if from a transistor ) has to hold off. >>>> If the source voltage was 12V and it was an equal value >>>> resistor, the transistor would have to take 24V when the >>>> relay was turned off. >>>> ?Make sense? >>>> Dwight >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com >>>> > >>>> > I used the wrong term I think, inrush limiter is the right one. >>>> > >>>> > Rob >>>> > >>>> > > -----Original Message----- >>>> > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >>>> > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt >>>> > > Sent: 12 July 2011 04:10 >>>> > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>>> > > Subject: Identifying the Surge Suppression Resistor in PDP11 H7140 >>>> > > PSU >>>> > > >>>> > > Work is continuing on repairing the H7140 PSU from my PDP11/24. >>>> > > >>>> > > Now it seems that the surge suppression resistor across the relay has >>>> > failed. >>>> > > This resistor is marked as R1 on the printset (p66 and p69) but >>>> actually >>>> > is two >>>> > > components connected in series. The parts list on p71 of the printset >>>> > lists a >>>> > > 3ohm 7W 5% resistor, but it is not 100% clear if this is supposed to >>>> > > be >>>> > the >>>> > > surge suppression resistor, although it does seem likely. >>>> > > The thing is I measured the resistance of the two resistors >>>> (in-circuit), >>>> > one was >>>> > > open circuit and clearly the failed component, the other measured >>>> 10ohms, >>>> > it >>>> > > might be failing too I suppose. >>>> > > >>>> > > The two resistors are marked KCC 13-17198-00 8234. I have not been >>>> > > able >>>> to >>>> > > find any information on them, so I can't verify the spec and I don't >>>> know >>>> > what >>>> > > to replace them with. Does anyone have any information on these >>>> resistors? >>>> > > >>>> > > Thanks >>>> > > >>>> > > Rob >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>> >> > From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 15:20:17 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 17:20:17 -0300 Subject: VT fixums References: Message-ID: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> > Just a reminder - this Saturday, just a few days away, RCS will be > doing triage on our big pile of VT100s and VT100oids. We need the > space! Incoming Cray! This is something I always wanted to have, It is just me, or the VT100 is the most beautiful of all terminals? From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 12 15:29:04 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 16:29:04 -0400 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> Message-ID: <4E1CAE90.4030304@neurotica.com> On 07/12/2011 04:20 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Just a reminder - this Saturday, just a few days away, RCS will be >> doing triage on our big pile of VT100s and VT100oids. We need the >> space! Incoming Cray! > > This is something I always wanted to have, It is just me, or the VT100 > is the most beautiful of all terminals? They are much maligned, but I love them as well. I got my first one (VT125, VT100 with the graphics option board installed) back in the mid-1980s. I had a lot of fun hacking with ReGIS graphics! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 15:29:39 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 16:29:39 -0400 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> Message-ID: > ? This is something I always wanted to have, It is just me, or the VT100 is > the most beautiful of all terminals? I hope it is just you. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 12 15:33:19 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 16:33:19 -0400 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> Message-ID: <4E1CAF8F.4040802@neurotica.com> On 07/12/2011 04:29 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> This is something I always wanted to have, It is just me, or the VT100 is >> the most beautiful of all terminals? > > I hope it is just you. Ok. What terminal(s) do YOU like, Will? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 15:42:15 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 21:42:15 +0100 Subject: Identifying the Surge Suppression Resistor in PDP11 H7140 PSU In-Reply-To: References: <01f301cc4041$320dd140$962973c0$@ntlworld.com> <01f401cc4045$a5dfa400$f19eec00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Forgot to mention the document on the fiche was The fiche has multiple documents on it EP-DEFCN-IP-001 May 1990 Title DEFCCN to H7422 ethernet, modems, storage element, power supplies IBP's Illustrated parts breakdown H7140 Power supply EK-H7140-IP-004 the same doc is on two other versions I have found DELNI to H7422 EP-DELNI-IP-003 may 1989 DFMSA to H7422 EP-DFMSA-IP-01 Jul 1990 Dave Caroline On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 9:14 PM, Dave Caroline wrote: > Same old problem I need a decent camera to capture. I think I have > found the chinese camera > that the expensive fiche scanner uses, its 200$ in the states and over > 400? in the UK and I just got raped for car insurance. > Ive tried emailing the chinese supplier and am waiting for a reply > http://www.tucsen.com/ProductView.asp?id=44 > A black and white version could be even better > > Dave Caroline > > > On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 8:56 PM, Jarratt RMA > wrote: >> Ooooohhh, a result! Thanks. Don't suppose you know if there is a PDF >> of the new printset, I could really do with at least the input >> assembly and the bias and interface board drawings. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Rob >> >> On 12/07/2011, Dave Caroline wrote: >>> there are two designs of the relay assembly on the H7140 fiche here, >>> the old ones parts list has a >>> Resistor (R1) 3 ohm 5% 7 W ?13-14848-00 >>> >>> the new one has a sub assembly on that with thermistor listed as >>> Thermistor 7.0 10% dec part number 13-17198-00 >>> >>> Dave Caroline >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 7:33 PM, Jarratt RMA >>> wrote: >>>> Actually I am not sure it does make sense, but then I am not an >>>> electronics >>>> expert, so I may have this wrong. >>>> >>>> This resistor is not in parallel with the coil, but connected across the >>>> terminals of the relay, ie the terminals the relay is designed to short >>>> when >>>> it is switched on. The resistor is supposed to limit the current going to >>>> the big electrolytic smoothing capacitors that come right after the bridge >>>> rectifier and provide enough power for the circuitry to check that the >>>> mains >>>> is "OK" and then switch on the relay when the capacitors have charged up >>>> and >>>> connect them directly to the bridge rectifier instead of via the inrush >>>> limiter. >>>> >>>> I hope that makes sense. >>>> >>>> I still need to know what the spec of these components is so I can find >>>> replacements. >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> >>>> Rob >>>> >>>> On 12 July 2011 15:03, dwight elvey wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi >>>>> ?I think you are talking about a dampenning resistor. This is >>>>> placed in parallel with the coil. >>>>> ?The resistance is usually equal to or somewhat larger than >>>>> the coils resistance. >>>>> ?Coils like to keep current flowing and don't like having the >>>>> current source broken quickly. The voltage would go up >>>>> until something arced or broke down. >>>>> ?The choice of resistor would be determined by how quickly >>>>> one wanted the relay to release. >>>>> ?Although, counter intuitive, a smaller value of resistance >>>>> would prolong the time for the relay to release. A higher >>>>> value would cause the release to be sooner. >>>>> ?The higher value resistor would also create a higher voltage >>>>> across the resistor. >>>>> ?At the instance the drive is removed, the same current that >>>>> was running through the coil is now running through the >>>>> resistor at that instant. >>>>> ?This voltage adds to the source voltage and is the voltage >>>>> that the transistor ( if from a transistor ) has to hold off. >>>>> If the source voltage was 12V and it was an equal value >>>>> resistor, the transistor would have to take 24V when the >>>>> relay was turned off. >>>>> ?Make sense? >>>>> Dwight >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com >>>>> > >>>>> > I used the wrong term I think, inrush limiter is the right one. >>>>> > >>>>> > Rob >>>>> > >>>>> > > -----Original Message----- >>>>> > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >>>>> > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt >>>>> > > Sent: 12 July 2011 04:10 >>>>> > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>>>> > > Subject: Identifying the Surge Suppression Resistor in PDP11 H7140 >>>>> > > PSU >>>>> > > >>>>> > > Work is continuing on repairing the H7140 PSU from my PDP11/24. >>>>> > > >>>>> > > Now it seems that the surge suppression resistor across the relay has >>>>> > failed. >>>>> > > This resistor is marked as R1 on the printset (p66 and p69) but >>>>> actually >>>>> > is two >>>>> > > components connected in series. The parts list on p71 of the printset >>>>> > lists a >>>>> > > 3ohm 7W 5% resistor, but it is not 100% clear if this is supposed to >>>>> > > be >>>>> > the >>>>> > > surge suppression resistor, although it does seem likely. >>>>> > > The thing is I measured the resistance of the two resistors >>>>> (in-circuit), >>>>> > one was >>>>> > > open circuit and clearly the failed component, the other measured >>>>> 10ohms, >>>>> > it >>>>> > > might be failing too I suppose. >>>>> > > >>>>> > > The two resistors are marked KCC 13-17198-00 8234. I have not been >>>>> > > able >>>>> to >>>>> > > find any information on them, so I can't verify the spec and I don't >>>>> know >>>>> > what >>>>> > > to replace them with. Does anyone have any information on these >>>>> resistors? >>>>> > > >>>>> > > Thanks >>>>> > > >>>>> > > Rob >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 12 15:33:37 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 21:33:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Stoness" at Jul 12, 11 02:48:25 pm Message-ID: > > twas a good find almost tried to bike home with it instead i paid a friend > 10bucks to come get me :P Reminds me of the time I bought my P850. I went to the texi company office (which, luckilly was just round the corner from teh place where I'd bought the P850) and said "I'd like a taxi with a boot large enough to put a mini in, please". The look was priceless... [Note the non-UK people here, a Mini is a model of small-ish car, but still much larger than the boot (trunk) of any normal car] -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 12 15:37:22 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 21:37:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Identifying the Surge Suppression Resistor in PDP11 H7140 PSU In-Reply-To: from "Dave Caroline" at Jul 12, 11 08:49:05 pm Message-ID: > > there are two designs of the relay assembly on the H7140 fiche here, > the old ones parts list has a > Resistor (R1) 3 ohm 5% 7 W 13-14848-00 That's the one shown in the printset on Bitsavers (and in my paper 11/44 printset) > > the new one has a sub assembly on that with thermistor listed as > Thermistor 7.0 10% dec part number 13-17198-00 Looks like my guess 'it's a DEC part number' was right. Waht does the 7.0 refer to here? The cold resistance? If so, it sould be possible to find soemthign that will work. The physical dimensions of the original part will give some idea as to the current rating. Are there any other changs between the 2 versions of the PSU? If you fitted a 3 Ohm reistor to the later version, would it work correctly? What was the reason for the change? > Dave Caroline -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 12 15:45:36 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 21:45:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Jul 12, 11 05:20:17 pm Message-ID: > > > Just a reminder - this Saturday, just a few days away, RCS will be > > doing triage on our big pile of VT100s and VT100oids. We need the > > space! Incoming Cray! > > This is something I always wanted to have, It is just me, or the VT100 > is the most beautiful of all terminals? It's probably just you :-). While I like the VT100 series (the real ones), I cna think of other terminals that interest me more. The HP2623 for example. -tony From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 15:50:26 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 17:50:26 -0300 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay References: Message-ID: <63A2023294A1473A8A280C601BDE6605@portajara> > [Note the non-UK people here, a Mini is a model of small-ish car, but > still much larger than the boot (trunk) of any normal car] And one of the more fun cars I've driven in my life. Wish these cars were cheap enough in Brazil so I could afford one. (here, the mini is sold by BMW and is a very high price car. There are the chinese copies, but "not such a mini". From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 12 16:04:58 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 14:04:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110712135924.Q99573@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 12 Jul 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > Reminds me of the time I bought my P850. I went to the texi company > office (which, luckilly was just round the corner from teh place where > I'd bought the P850) and said "I'd like a taxi with a boot large enough > to put a mini in, please". The look was priceless... > [Note the non-UK people here, a Mini is a model of small-ish car, but > still much larger than the boot (trunk) of any normal car] In the mid 1970s, some American vans were large enough to carry a Mini-Cooper or a Honda N600. Not sure, but wouldn't the "van" ("staion wagon" in American) model hold one rack if you let it hang out the back? The "new" Mini, made by BMW, just can not compare with the real thing. I was able to carry FIVE DTC-300s (Diable HiType I stand printer) with a Honda Civic. (I had some rope). -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 16:29:06 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 17:29:06 -0400 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20110712135924.Q99573@shell.lmi.net> References: <20110712135924.Q99573@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 5:04 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> I... said "I'd like a taxi with a boot large enough >> to put a mini in, please". The look was priceless... I'm sure. >> [Note the non-UK people here, a Mini is a model of small-ish car, but >> still much larger than the boot (trunk) of any normal car] I've seen the classic minis in the UK - they are indeed tiny, but _might_ fit in a full-sized American cargo van. > Not sure, but wouldn't the "van" ("staion wagon" in American) model hold > one rack if you let it hang out the back? > > I was able to carry FIVE ?DTC-300s (Diable HiType I stand printer) with a > Honda Civic. ?(I had some rope). My big score was *two* H960 racks, and the PDP-11/34 and RL02 and RX01 and docs and floppies in a VW Microbus. The racks went in from the back and the BA-11s and such were on the floor underneath (no middle seat installed - it's in a cargo configuration). Handled pretty good, too. Much later, I fit a VAX-11/750 into a Chevy Astro Minivan - that was harder because of the stumps of the middle seats hanging up the bottom of the rack. -ethan -ethan From jws at jwsss.com Tue Jul 12 16:32:34 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 14:32:34 -0700 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20110712135924.Q99573@shell.lmi.net> References: <20110712135924.Q99573@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E1CBD72.7080809@jwsss.com> Four full 6' Microdata systems, dual 14" 10mb drives, 1/2 tape (Pertec rack style, not cipher slide out) and full cpu.. Also filled rest of space with Microdata Prism's. I crammed this into a Dodge B250 Sportsman Van. probably close to a ton total, and took half a day to load an another to unload. Admittedly not a compact car, but probably the biggest haul of full systems. We also bought all the remaining full size 1600's and parts, but that came in a rental truck (150 card cages, and about 20 more boxes of controllers, and WIP). Jim On 7/12/2011 2:04 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > I was able to carry FIVE DTC-300s (Diable HiType I stand printer) with a > Honda Civic. (I had some rope). > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Jul 12 16:44:15 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 17:44:15 -0400 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E1CC02F.7080504@verizon.net> On 07/12/2011 03:06 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Nope a 3 computer household is PDP-8F, microPDP11/53, and a few VAXen, > Why does 'a few VAXen' only count as one computer (rather than a few > computers)? > By type (cluster) or the 12 members (2 VS2000, 8 uVAX3100 (mixed includes 2 /m76-GPX), 2uVAX-II(BA23 and 123). Yes, they sometimes run LAVC as the AIRPRT:: cluster (PIPER, CESSNA, MOONEY, GASTRK, FBO, RUNWAY, VASI, ATIS, STINSON, REIL, TOWER, VIDSYS). VIDSYS:: a uVAX-II/GPX in BA123 was my office VAX at DEC and came home with me after the great blood letting. I inherited it from Video Systems Engineering during my tenure. If I count PDP-11s 9 operational starting with a PDP11/03(LSI11), 11t23(F11), MicroPDP11/53, my monster 11/73 (50" corp cab with RL02, RX02, multiple RDxx) and a few BA11VA with 11/2 and 11/23 boards and TU58 storage. There are 4 system in BA11S boxes and 2 in BA23 and one in BA123. For PDP-8 and clones 4, PDP-8f, Intersil sampler board(6100 cpu), HB version of STGs6100, and a 6100 made to look like like a 4K 8e (no EMA) but has std console. Several COSMAC 1802 based including original COSMAC (Ca1978, my build), STGs Embedded 1802 with expansion, and a handful of HB 1802s as projects for fun. If I could system I have a long list of them (about 50) in catagories of DEC, CP/M based, TI99/4A, and SBCs. Among the oddball SBCs I have a IMSAI IMP-48 (8035 cpu). The largest group is the DEC or DEC based, and the CP/M based systems. The latter has: 2 NS* Horizons (both have hard disks) One built by me in '78 1 Altair 8800 (I started assembling it in December 1974 SN00200) 1 Altair 8800BT (turnkey business system) 1 NS Advantage with hard disk 1 Kaypro 4/84 1 Kaypro-II (the later 2) 1 AmproLB+ 1 Compupro 816 with disks drive both hard and floppy. I have Z80, 68K and 8085/8088 CPU for it. 1 CCS (complete save for I use Heath H207 8" disks) 1 Vt180 complete 1 VT185 (Vt180 with VT125 video and DEC paddle board) 3 Epson PX8 with wedges and 3.5" disk unit. 1 Osborne 1 3 VT180 board setup as standalone one running at 6mhz with CF 1 Netronics Explorer85 (8085 with S100) 1 SB180 (micromint) with SCSI option and 20mb hard disk 1 BCC180 with added CF (64mb) added via the 8255 PPI 1 Commadore 128 with disks running CP/M Likely forgot one or two. I didn't list out all the SBCs as they are operational but need to be hooked up to a terminal and power where the listed system are generally operational (move it into the open and turn on) or in frequent use. I generally do not count PCs but I keep a few 386SX/25 boards as spares and a pair of Dell 486 pizza boxes for their ISA bus. (all are certifiably 12+ years old). >> PCs don't count but the >> NS* horizon z80 system does. > 3 computer household : HP9810, HP9820, HP9830 ;-) Not an unhappy family. ;) Allison From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jul 12 16:50:52 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 14:50:52 -0700 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <4E1CAF8F.4040802@neurotica.com> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <4E1CAF8F.4040802@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <51e0d89b56c7988ee39e04fd2cc36358@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Jul 12, at 1:33 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 07/12/2011 04:29 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> This is something I always wanted to have, It is just me, or the >>> VT100 is >>> the most beautiful of all terminals? >> >> I hope it is just you. > > Ok. What terminal(s) do YOU like > I wasn't overly fond of VT-100s either, but then, one could do worse. Ann Arbor terminals were nice. Sat in front of an Ann Arbor Ambassador for many years, the major benefit 48 or 60 lines on screen. Using a typical 24-line terminal for programming felt like being crippled in comparison. From rickb at bensene.com Tue Jul 12 16:58:20 2011 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 14:58:20 -0700 Subject: Terminal Styling (was VT fixums) In-Reply-To: <51e0d89b56c7988ee39e04fd2cc36358@cs.ubc.ca> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara><4E1CAF8F.4040802@neurotica.com> <51e0d89b56c7988ee39e04fd2cc36358@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > > Ann Arbor terminals were nice. Sat in front of an Ann Arbor Ambassador > for many years, the major benefit 48 or 60 lines on screen. Using a > typical 24-line terminal for programming felt like being crippled in > comparison. Yeah, they were good (albeit somewhat unreliable) terminals, but from a styling standpoint, the Ann Arbor Ambassadors were...well, fugly, IMHO. I too spent many hours behind these terminals (Tektronix bought tons of them..which was strange, since Tek made its own terminals), and I did like the crisp display, and the wide mode. Made it great for viewing FORTRAN complier listing outputs from the CDC Cyber 73. -Rick From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 17:00:55 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 18:00:55 -0400 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 4:20 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Just a reminder - this Saturday, just a few days away, RCS will be >> doing triage on our big pile of VT100s and VT100oids. I wish I could be there for it. >> We need the space! Incoming Cray! That sounds like fun! > ? This is something I always wanted to have, It is just me, or the VT100 is > the most beautiful of all terminals? The first terminal I used on a regular basis was the VT220 (when it was mere months old), but I spent much more time on VT100s. Occasionally, I preferred a feature or two of the VT220 over its older brother, but for solid ASCII game play and just banging away at 80x24 C code, I really did like the VT100 family. The VT102 was easier to deal with than a true VT100 (AVO and such), but the aesthetic was the same. I used a VT52 much later - it was painful. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 17:04:56 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 18:04:56 -0400 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <51e0d89b56c7988ee39e04fd2cc36358@cs.ubc.ca> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <4E1CAF8F.4040802@neurotica.com> <51e0d89b56c7988ee39e04fd2cc36358@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 5:50 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I wasn't overly fond of VT-100s either, but then, one could do worse. I never liked the screen appearance or the keyboard feel of Wyse terminals, for example. > Ann Arbor terminals were nice. Sat in front of an Ann Arbor Ambassador for > many years, the major benefit 48 or 60 lines on screen. Using a typical > 24-line terminal for programming felt like being crippled in comparison. That might have been neat to experience. I did feel the pain of 24 lines and C-code, but since all of our terminals were middle-of-the-road DEC and DEC-clones, we never had anything as exotic as 48 or 60 lines. We had to resort to line printer output when the code just couldn't be seen on one screen. OTOH, it enforced 1TBS because nobody wanted to waste an entire line on one opening curly brace. -ethan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 17:29:18 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 18:29:18 -0400 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <4E1CAF8F.4040802@neurotica.com> <51e0d89b56c7988ee39e04fd2cc36358@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: Wow, what a bunch of typical computer geeks... Alexandre comments on the aesthetics of a piece of equipment, and everything quickly changes into a discussion about functionality. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 17:32:14 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 18:32:14 -0400 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> Message-ID: > I wish I could be there for it. I should add that if anyone coming wants to participate in the triage this Saturday, you would be most welcome. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 12 17:36:12 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 15:36:12 -0700 Subject: Terminal Styling (was VT fixums) In-Reply-To: References: , <51e0d89b56c7988ee39e04fd2cc36358@cs.ubc.ca>, Message-ID: <4E1C69EC.12178.14C3067@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Jul 2011 at 14:58, Rick Bensene wrote: > Yeah, they were good (albeit somewhat unreliable) terminals, but from > a styling standpoint, the Ann Arbor Ambassadors were...well, fugly, > IMHO. I too spent many hours behind these terminals (Tektronix bought > tons of them..which was strange, since Tek made its own terminals), > and I did like the crisp display, and the wide mode. Made it great > for viewing FORTRAN complier listing outputs from the CDC Cyber 73. My favorite was an early 80s Tandberg terminal. Controlled-contrast keyboard, beautiful display, very solid. I had a TDV-2000-series terminal on loan in my office. I was very sad when it left and was replaced by a Beehive VT220 clone. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 12 17:36:36 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 18:36:36 -0400 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <4E1CAF8F.4040802@neurotica.com> <51e0d89b56c7988ee39e04fd2cc36358@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4E1CCC74.6080102@neurotica.com> On 07/12/2011 06:29 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Wow, what a bunch of typical computer geeks... > > Alexandre comments on the aesthetics of a piece of equipment, and > everything quickly changes into a discussion about functionality. I'm not sure why this would be a surprise, given this forum. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Jul 12 21:05:39 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 22:05:39 -0400 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <51e0d89b56c7988ee39e04fd2cc36358@cs.ubc.ca> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <4E1CAF8F.4040802@neurotica.com> <51e0d89b56c7988ee39e04fd2cc36358@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4E1CFD73.5080507@compsys.to> >Brent Hilpert wrote: > I wasn't overly fond of VT-100s either, but then, one could do worse. > > Ann Arbor terminals were nice. Sat in front of an Ann Arbor Ambassador > for many years, the major benefit 48 or 60 lines on screen. Using a > typical 24-line terminal for programming felt like being crippled in > comparison. I am considering expanding KED / KEX under RT-11 to handle up to 60 lines. Would anyone be interested? Under the DOS versions of Ersatz-11 in FULL SCREEN mode, some video controllers support up to 50 lines by 80 columns and a few support 44 lines by 132 columns. Under the Win32 versions of Ersatz-11, a switch can be used: "/CONSIZE:WxH" to select any arbitrary screen size. I don't think that anyone else uses RT-11 any more except to run the hardware. I certainly don't hear of any software being written. Jerome Fine From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Tue Jul 12 22:45:20 2011 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 22:45:20 -0500 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E1D14D0.3020104@tx.rr.com> On 7/12/2011 3:33 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> twas a good find almost tried to bike home with it instead i paid a friend >> 10bucks to come get me :P > > Reminds me of the time I bought my P850. I went to the texi company > office (which, luckilly was just round the corner from teh place where > I'd bought the P850) and said "I'd like a taxi with a boot large enough > to put a mini in, please". The look was priceless... > > [Note the non-UK people here, a Mini is a model of small-ish car, but > still much larger than the boot (trunk) of any normal car] > > -tony > Heh! I'll bet the look was something else. If by Mini you mean Mini-Cooper, those seem to have become fairly popular in the USA in the last few years. A friend of mine owns one and is quite happy with it. I'd imagine gasoline prices have a lot to do with it, but they do just look cool to me as well. -- Later, Charlie C. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 12 23:18:07 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 21:18:07 -0700 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <4E1CFD73.5080507@compsys.to> References: , <51e0d89b56c7988ee39e04fd2cc36358@cs.ubc.ca>, <4E1CFD73.5080507@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4E1CBA0F.13706.28538C2@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Jul 2011 at 22:05, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I don't think that anyone else uses RT-11 any more except to > run the hardware. I certainly don't hear of any software > being written. The operating system, no, but the file system is still used in some older versions of VxWorks--and bastardized versions of it as well, with longer file names, etc. down to modified Rad50 encodings. Bad ideas never die, it seems. --Chuck From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Wed Jul 13 00:52:19 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 06:52:19 +0100 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> from "AlexandreSouza - Listas" at Jul 12, 11 05:20:17 pm Message-ID: <5AA8DA37D24241F8A72DB2C034BA242D@RODSDEVSYSTEM> >From the day I saw the first complete VT100 prototype sitting on the bench at the Digital Terminals Product Line offices in Marlboro Mass. I have always considered the VT100 to be the classic terminal. It led the way for many years and VT100 compatibility was universal. No other terminal had the impact VT100 did. I can't remember how many thousand I sold in the UK whilst at DEC but it was lots. You cannot get a more classic icon in computing than the DEC VT100. Regards ? Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 12 July 2011 21:46 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: VT fixums > > > Just a reminder - this Saturday, just a few days away, RCS will be > > doing triage on our big pile of VT100s and VT100oids. We need the > > space! Incoming Cray! > > This is something I always wanted to have, It is just me, or the VT100 > is the most beautiful of all terminals? It's probably just you :-). While I like the VT100 series (the real ones), I cna think of other terminals that interest me more. The HP2623 for example. -tony From vintagecoder at aol.com Wed Jul 13 00:52:31 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 05:52:31 +0000 Subject: VT fixums Message-ID: <2043958224-1310536343-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-555060714-@b2.c1.bise3.blackberry> It's just you, the most beautiful of all terminals is a dead heat between a 3278 and a 3190! From james at machineroom.info Tue Jul 12 15:44:40 2011 From: james at machineroom.info (James Wilson) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 21:44:40 +0100 Subject: MINC-11 boot problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E1CB238.6060909@machineroom.info> On 09/07/2011 21:13, Tony Duell wrote: >> Looks like the +12V startup and -12V (actually -15) are fine. I'm > Have you checked these with a 'scope? Excessive ripple on a supply line > could cause exactly the fault you are seeing. > > Ho Thanks Tony, you caused me to double check things...and it looks like there's a couple of spikes on the ground of about 4Vp-p and 3Vp-p @ 32Khz which was throwing all my measurements out. I'm guessing a cap, does that sound about right? James From elazzerini at interfree.it Tue Jul 12 16:17:13 2011 From: elazzerini at interfree.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 23:17:13 +0200 Subject: Multitech MPF-PC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000101cc40d9$11ecbc30$35c63490$@it> Multitech MPF-PC http://elazzerini.interfree.it/MP-PC/index-en.htm What I NEED to make this system alive:: 1) new ISA 8bit video card like monochrome, CGA, or VGA card 2) boot disks: they are special because they contain the DIOS loader that sits between the hardware and the operating system itself to allow the complete management of the motherboard. Regards Enrico From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 13 01:56:35 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 23:56:35 -0700 Subject: Multitech MPF-PC In-Reply-To: <000101cc40d9$11ecbc30$35c63490$@it> References: , <000101cc40d9$11ecbc30$35c63490$@it> Message-ID: <4E1CDF33.5916.3164D13@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Jul 2011 at 23:17, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: > Multitech MPF-PC > > http://elazzerini.interfree.it/MP-PC/index-en.htm > > What I NEED to make this system alive:: > > 1) new ISA 8bit video card like monochrome, CGA, or VGA card > > 2) boot disks: they are special because they contain the DIOS loader > that sits between the hardware and the operating system itself to > allow the complete management of the motherboard. Enrico, I used the MP-PC or perhaps the version with a hard disk many years ago I don't remember much about it--I used three of them for a special project and do not recall the DIOS files, but it was a long time ago and didn't use them after the project was complete. If you are a Multitech collector, I do have the owner's manual for the Multitech 900, the PC AT unit. Let me know if you need it--I don't think I'm going to encounter a 900 anytime soon. All the best, Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 05:16:41 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 07:16:41 -0300 Subject: VT fixums References: <2043958224-1310536343-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-555060714-@b2.c1.bise3.blackberry> Message-ID: <914109BA32964CC1B562D00D0D2BFA47@portajara> > It's just you, the most beautiful of all terminals is a dead heat between > a 3278 and a 3190! Yep, the 3278 is beautiful :) But I want a VT-100 :D From hachti at hachti.de Wed Jul 13 06:05:27 2011 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 13:05:27 +0200 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <5AA8DA37D24241F8A72DB2C034BA242D@RODSDEVSYSTEM> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> from "AlexandreSouza - Listas" at Jul 12, 11 05:20:17 pm <5AA8DA37D24241F8A72DB2C034BA242D@RODSDEVSYSTEM> Message-ID: <4E1D7BF7.9000905@hachti.de> Am 13.07.2011 07:52, schrieb Rod Smallwood: > You cannot get a more classic icon in computing than the DEC VT100. What about the VT05? Its quite cool. And has the most space age influenced design I've seen... And it made me very happy because it's so much more quiet and faster than an ASR33... :-) Philipp From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 08:30:09 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 09:30:09 -0400 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <4E1D7BF7.9000905@hachti.de> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <5AA8DA37D24241F8A72DB2C034BA242D@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4E1D7BF7.9000905@hachti.de> Message-ID: > What about the VT05? Its quite cool. And has the most space age influenced > design I've seen... Yes, and the original Data General Dasher D2 as well. The VT100 was clearly entirely designed by engineers (as was the VT-50/52), but it looks like they actually hired an industrial design consultant for the VT05. Past the VT100, all terminals get really boring looking. Perhaps there are a few exceptions, like the chiseled look of Wyse tubes. -- Will From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Wed Jul 13 08:47:45 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 14:47:45 +0100 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <01O3LH4YWI6Q0037M6@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01O3LH4YWI6Q0037M6@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <634B6A0501394E81B5AFAF418879CBE5@RODSDEVSYSTEM> For all of its faults it was still the market leader. Did you know you could plug a B&W TV camera into the back of a VT100 and see the picture on the screen? I did it at Dec Park (Reading UK) one day and drew a large crowd. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Peter Coghlan Sent: 13 July 2011 11:50 To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: VT fixums > >From the day I saw the first complete VT100 prototype sitting on the bench >at the Digital Terminals Product Line offices in Marlboro Mass. I have >always considered the VT100 to be the classic terminal. It led the way for >many years and VT100 compatibility was universal. > >No other terminal had the impact VT100 did. I can't remember how many >thousand I sold in the UK whilst at DEC but it was lots. > >You cannot get a more classic icon in computing than the DEC VT100. > I have kinda mixed feelings about the VT100, possibly coloured by having to deal with a large batch of secondhand, secondgrade examples at college. The cases were fragile and yellowed and the keyboards often could not cope with student use. There were a lot of minor video faults, typically vertical linearity. Older and grottier ADM5 terminals seemed to be built like tanks in comparison. The thing that irritated me the most was the loud and grating beep. They seemed slow for a given bitrate compared to other terminals, even after turning off the smooth scroll (which was quite cool if you ever had time to wait for it which noone ever did). The VT100 protocol was a great step forward but it seemed slightly over-complicated and bloated. A pity that many writers of terminal emulators and terminal driver software failed to grasp the point of it and came up with broken implementations. I was much happier with the VT220 which seemed to solve a lot of the version 1.0 issues of the VT100. However, it didn't really look like a terminal. Maybe a VT220 in a Commodore PET case would better fit the bill :-) I have an ADM5 and a VT220 but I would not be interested in having a VT100. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From chrise at pobox.com Wed Jul 13 08:53:15 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 08:53:15 -0500 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <4E1D7BF7.9000905@hachti.de> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <5AA8DA37D24241F8A72DB2C034BA242D@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4E1D7BF7.9000905@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20110713135315.GA28413@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (07/13/2011 at 01:05PM +0200), Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Am 13.07.2011 07:52, schrieb Rod Smallwood: > > >You cannot get a more classic icon in computing than the DEC VT100. > > What about the VT05? Its quite cool. And has the most space age > influenced design I've seen... > And it made me very happy because it's so much more quiet and faster > than an ASR33... :-) Yes... but noone can afford them now that they are going for $250,000. -- Chris Elmquist From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Wed Jul 13 10:35:08 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 16:35:08 +0100 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <4E1D7BF7.9000905@hachti.de> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> from"AlexandreSouza - Listas" at Jul 12, 11 05:20:17 pm <5AA8DA37D24241F8A72DB2C034BA242D@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4E1D7BF7.9000905@hachti.de> Message-ID: <52A836FFB10F4691A90B6710A95E4C3C@RODSDEVSYSTEM> Yes it was very nice and I'd love one but it did not have the impact that that the VT100 did. How many VT05 compatible terminals do you know of? The VT50 and VT52 also had limited success. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Philipp Hachtmann Sent: 13 July 2011 12:05 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: VT fixums Am 13.07.2011 07:52, schrieb Rod Smallwood: > You cannot get a more classic icon in computing than the DEC VT100. What about the VT05? Its quite cool. And has the most space age influenced design I've seen... And it made me very happy because it's so much more quiet and faster than an ASR33... :-) Philipp From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed Jul 13 11:06:44 2011 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 18:06:44 +0200 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara><5AA8DA37D24241F8A72DB2C034BA242D@RODSDEVSYSTEM><4E1D7BF7.9000905@hachti.de> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara><5AA8DA37D24241F8A72DB2C034BA242D@RODSDEVSYSTEM><4E1D7BF7.9000905@hachti.de> Message-ID: I must be very lucky ... I own a VT55-FB (similar to VT-52), one VT05 *and* the Dasher D2. I might sell the Dasher D2 for a good bid (but you would have to take the printer and the DG NOVA 3 as well, so shipping is no option). The VT05 is very dear to me, but for 250K I'd sell in a wink of an eye (but still with pain in my heart, it *is* a beauty!). Of course I have some other "VT" terminals too: 100, 220, 240, 320, 420, 510 and the VT525. The latter is not really a terminal like the rest. It is a base unit to which you connect a VGA screen. I just wished I had the space to set them all up neatly, and connected! - Henk. -------------------------------------------------- From: "William Donzelli" Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 3:30 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: VT fixums >> What about the VT05? Its quite cool. And has the most space age >> influenced >> design I've seen... > > Yes, and the original Data General Dasher D2 as well. > > The VT100 was clearly entirely designed by engineers (as was the > VT-50/52), but it looks like they actually hired an industrial design > consultant for the VT05. Past the VT100, all terminals get really > boring looking. Perhaps there are a few exceptions, like the chiseled > look of Wyse tubes. > > -- > Will > From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jul 13 12:05:09 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 11:05:09 -0600 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> Message-ID: In article <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046 at portajara>, "Alexandre Souza - Listas" writes: > This is something I always wanted to have, It is just me, or the VT100 > is the most beautiful of all terminals? Beautiful? Its just you. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jul 13 12:22:21 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 11:22:21 -0600 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara><5AA8DA37D24241F8A72DB2C034BA242D@RODSDEVSYSTEM><4E1D7BF7.9000905@hachti.de> Message-ID: In article , "Henk Gooijen" writes: > I must be very lucky ... > I own a VT55-FB (similar to VT-52), one VT05 *and* the Dasher D2. Yes, you are very lucky. You're the only person I know of that has the VT55: VT52 + graphics. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Jul 13 12:43:55 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 18:43:55 +0100 Subject: Disc for "The SCSI Bus and IDE Interface" (Schmidt) Message-ID: <4E1DD95B.3060808@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, Does anyone have a copy of the floppy disc (or possibly CD) which accompanies the Second Edition of "The SCSI Bus and IDE Interface" by Friedhelm Schmidt? I just bought an ex-library copy of this, and the disc is naturally missing. The local library is showing their copy as "Sold/disposed, content no longer relevant"... Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 13:26:44 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 13:26:44 -0500 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <5AA8DA37D24241F8A72DB2C034BA242D@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4E1D7BF7.9000905@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4E1DE364.5090700@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: > Past the VT100, all terminals get really boring looking. Perhaps there > are a few exceptions, like the chiseled look of Wyse tubes. I always liked the VT220; while the keyboard was quite enormous, the terminal itself lent itself nicely to being tucked into a corner, rather than taking up lots of desk space. I did rather like the styling, too, which was far less boxy than a lot of terminals out there. I still regret giving mine away, and will hopefully find another one sometime! :-) cheers Jules From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed Jul 13 13:34:16 2011 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 20:34:16 +0200 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <5AA8DA37D24241F8A72DB2C034BA242D@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4E1D7BF7.9000905@hachti.de> <4E1DE364.5090700@gmail.com> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <5AA8DA37D24241F8A72DB2C034BA242D@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4E1D7BF7.9000905@hachti.de> <4E1DE364.5090700@gmail.com> Message-ID: > William Donzelli wrote: >> Past the VT100, all terminals get really boring looking. Perhaps there >> are a few exceptions, like the chiseled look of Wyse tubes. > > I always liked the VT220; while the keyboard was quite enormous, the > terminal itself lent itself nicely to being tucked into a corner, rather > than taking up lots of desk space. I did rather like the styling, too, > which was far less boxy than a lot of terminals out there. I still regret > giving mine away, and will hopefully find another one sometime! :-) > > cheers > > Jules And not to forget ... IIRC, the VT220 was the only DEC terminal that supported both RS-232 and 20 mA current loop. Not at the same time, but it was as simple as going through "Setup", et voil?! VT100's could do the same, although not through Setup. You could install the 20 mA current loop option at the back side (behind the big vertical panel), but that automatically rendered the RS-232 connection dead. I have done that installation once, and was surprised that the RS-232 was dead. I kinda hoped that both would work in parallel, and I'd simply just connect one of the two (25-pin DSUB or 8-pin MOLEX). - Henk. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 13:37:18 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 14:37:18 -0400 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <4E1DE364.5090700@gmail.com> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <5AA8DA37D24241F8A72DB2C034BA242D@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4E1D7BF7.9000905@hachti.de> <4E1DE364.5090700@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 2:26 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > I always liked the VT220; while the keyboard was quite enormous, the > terminal itself lent itself nicely to being tucked into a corner, rather > than taking up lots of desk space. I did rather like the styling, too, which > was far less boxy than a lot of terminals out there. I liked the VT100 styling much more than the VT220 - easier to stack. Really. (at one place, we had an office with six VT100s - two levels of three terminals - very handy for watching multiple stderr streams at once - quite extravagant, though, as even the clones were costing us $1600 each at the time). > I still regret giving > mine away, and will hopefully find another one sometime! :-) A year or two back, I had several VT220s available in dirty-but-confirmed-working shape from an auto dealer's parts counter, and I couldn't generate any interest. These were at FreeGeek Columbus, so when they didn't sell intact, they were scrapped out. They aren't easy to ship, and they certainly aren't light, but it seems unless they are purchased in person, there's not so much demand. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 13:40:05 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 14:40:05 -0400 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <5AA8DA37D24241F8A72DB2C034BA242D@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4E1D7BF7.9000905@hachti.de> <4E1DE364.5090700@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 2:34 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > And not to forget ... IIRC, the VT220 was the only DEC terminal that > supported both RS-232 and 20 mA current loop. Not at the same time, > but it was as simple as going through "Setup", et voil?! I did use that feature to hang a VT220 off of a PDP-8/L. The VT220 was my only current-loop terminal At the time I did this, the terminal was worth several times the price of the PDP-8. Now, I'd say this relationship has inverted. -ethan From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jul 13 14:21:01 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 12:21:01 -0700 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <5AA8DA37D24241F8A72DB2C034BA242D@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4E1D7BF7.9000905@hachti.de> Message-ID: <5134e4e9772f8513ba3bf844a2261d29@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Jul 13, at 6:30 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> What about the VT05? Its quite cool. And has the most space age >> influenced >> design I've seen... > > Yes, and the original Data General Dasher D2 as well. > > The VT100 was clearly entirely designed by engineers (as was the > VT-50/52), but it looks like they actually hired an industrial design > consultant for the VT05. re VT05: it certainly was a style of the times (radios, stereos, etc. got the same treatment), but I almost wonder if these were done by the same designer: http://hummingbirdsales.com/VT05.html http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/eec/calcs/Monroe610.html (http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/eec/calcpics/Monroe610/viewLg.jpg) > Past the VT100, all terminals get really > boring looking. Perhaps there are a few exceptions, like the chiseled > look of Wyse tubes. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 13 13:27:32 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 19:27:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: MINC-11 boot problems In-Reply-To: <4E1CB238.6060909@machineroom.info> from "James Wilson" at Jul 12, 11 09:44:40 pm Message-ID: > > On 09/07/2011 21:13, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Looks like the +12V startup and -12V (actually -15) are fine. I'm > > Have you checked these with a 'scope? Excessive ripple on a supply line > > could cause exactly the fault you are seeing. > > > > Ho > > Thanks Tony, you caused me to double check things...and it looks like > there's a couple of spikes on the ground of about 4Vp-p and 3Vp-p @ Hang on a second. What is the 'scope probe ground lead connected to, and what is the 'scope probe tip connected to? If the 'scope ground lead is connected to the 0V rail and you are seeing 4V spikes on something else that's supposed to 'ground' (i.e. also connected to the 0V rail) then either you have a very serious ground bounce problem or there's an open-circuit somewhere. > 32Khz which was throwing all my measurements out. I'm guessing a cap, > does that sound about right? 32kHz sounds to me like the switching frequency. If you're getting ripple at that freqeucny, I would suspect the capactiros on the DC output side of hte rectifiers. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 13 13:30:06 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 19:30:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <63A2023294A1473A8A280C601BDE6605@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Jul 12, 11 05:50:26 pm Message-ID: > > > [Note the non-UK people here, a Mini is a model of small-ish car, but > > still much larger than the boot (trunk) of any normal car] > > And one of the more fun cars I've driven in my life. Wish these cars > were cheap enough in Brazil so I could afford one. > > (here, the mini is sold by BMW and is a very high price car. There are Ah no, that;s the 'new' Mini. And if you think that's areal mini, you probably also think the the HP Officecalcs are real HP calculators.... The real mini, which first appeared in 1959 IIRC, is a somewhat smaller car. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 13 13:59:09 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 19:59:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <634B6A0501394E81B5AFAF418879CBE5@RODSDEVSYSTEM> from "Rod Smallwood" at Jul 13, 11 02:47:45 pm Message-ID: > > For all of its faults it was still the market leader.=20 > > Did you know you could plug a B&W TV camera into the back of a VT100 and = > see > the picture on the screen? I did it at Dec Park (Reading UK) one day and > drew a large crowd. Hmm... I thought that to do that you had to sync the external video source (the camera) to the VT100 video board. You had to take the composite output from the VT100, extract the sync from it and lock the video source to that. If you did that, you could certainly have VT100 text overlayed on the output of a video camera. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 13 13:34:51 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 19:34:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20110712135924.Q99573@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jul 12, 11 02:04:58 pm Message-ID: > In the mid 1970s, some American vans were large enough to carry a > Mini-Cooper or a Honda N600. Yes, I am sure there are vans/lorries i nthe UK that can carry a Mini (car), but you don't normally find them on hire from taxi companies :-) Although when I needed to move a PERQ 2T4 for a demonstration at Bristol University, the (very helpful) taxi compnay offered us the vehicle they normally used to carry people in wheelchairs. It hd a low flat flooe and large doors and was idea for fitting a PERQ in... > > Not sure, but wouldn't the "van" ("staion wagon" in American) model hold > one rack if you let it hang out the back? I've often thought a hearse would be a rather useful vehicle ot own. I suspect the bit at hte back designed ot take the coffin would take an H960 rackj on its side. You'd get some odd looks though. > > The "new" Mini, made by BMW, just can not compare with the real thing. > Agreed! > > I was able to carry FIVE DTC-300s (Diable HiType I stand printer) with a > Honda Civic. (I had some rope). I have this vision of them all being strung out one after another towed behind the car ;-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 13 14:11:14 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 20:11:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Jul 13, 11 11:22:21 am Message-ID: > > I must be very lucky ... > > I own a VT55-FB (similar to VT-52), one VT05 *and* the Dasher D2. > > Yes, you are very lucky. You're the only person I know of that has > the VT55: VT52 + graphics. Now you know 2 such people. I have a (working) VT55 with the 'copier' (electrolytic printer) installed. I've never managed to get that to work 9maybe jsut old paper, etc) but the rest of the terminal works perfectiy. One odd thing abotu the VT52 is that the PCBs are all single-sided with hundreds of wire links., Was that really cheaper/more relaible than a double-sided PCB? The VT55 graphics board is actually the same form factor as a DEC Hex-height board, but the edge conenctors don't plug into anything (I forget if the fingersare conencted to anytraces o nthe PCB), there are some cables soldered to the board that plug into the VTv2 logic boards. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 13 13:47:35 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 19:47:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jul 12, 11 05:29:06 pm Message-ID: > My big score was *two* H960 racks, and the PDP-11/34 and RL02 and RX01 > and docs and floppies in a VW Microbus. The racks went in from the > back and the BA-11s and such were on the floor underneath (no middle > seat installed - it's in a cargo configuration). Handled pretty good, > too. I amanged to fit a PDP11/44, a PDP8/e, a Sun 3/260, a Northstar Horizon, an Acorn System 4, assorted smaller micros, printsets, manuals, spare boards, etc in the back of a Citroen BX. Of coruse it was level at the end :-) And a friend of mine once drove me from Bristol to London up the A4 with various PDP11 bits on the seats of his car and an H960 tied to the roof rack... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 13 15:01:43 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 21:01:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Disc for "The SCSI Bus and IDE Interface" (Schmidt) In-Reply-To: <4E1DD95B.3060808@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jul 13, 11 06:43:55 pm Message-ID: > > Hi guys, > > Does anyone have a copy of the floppy disc (or possibly CD) which > accompanies the Second Edition of "The SCSI Bus and IDE Interface" by > Friedhelm Schmidt? You are not going to beleive this :-(. I have the book with the disk in the back, I've just opened the disk envelope for the first ever time. And the disk has read errors :-( I think the source files are readable, but the executables aren't (and one of those doesn't come with source). If you think the bit I can revoer is of use to you, I would be happy to tar it up and e-mail it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 13 13:54:12 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 19:54:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4E1D14D0.3020104@tx.rr.com> from "Charlie Carothers" at Jul 12, 11 10:45:20 pm Message-ID: > Heh! I'll bet the look was something else. If by Mini you mean I had some explaining to do, put it that way... > Mini-Cooper, those seem to have become fairly popular in the USA in the The Mini Coopr is, IIRC, a version of the same car with somewhat better performance. Note that I am talking about the origianl Mini, not the modern horror from BMW... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 13 13:51:10 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 19:51:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jul 12, 11 06:29:18 pm Message-ID: > > Wow, what a bunch of typical computer geeks... You called? > > Alexandre comments on the aesthetics of a piece of equipment, and > everything quickly changes into a discussion about functionality. To me, the 'beauty' of a piece of machinery, electronics, etc is not what it looks like, but how it's designed. So yes, I do find the line-drawing state machine in the HP2623 terminal to be 'beautiful' for all it looks like a handle of DIL pacakges o na PCB. -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jul 13 15:14:56 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 13:14:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Jul 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>> [Note the non-UK people here, a Mini is a model of small-ish car, but >>> still much larger than the boot (trunk) of any normal car] >> >> And one of the more fun cars I've driven in my life. Wish these cars >> were cheap enough in Brazil so I could afford one. >> >> (here, the mini is sold by BMW and is a very high price car. There are > > Ah no, that;s the 'new' Mini. And if you think that's areal mini, you > probably also think the the HP Officecalcs are real HP calculators.... > > The real mini, which first appeared in 1959 IIRC, is a somewhat smaller > car. > The "real" car is called the Cooper Mini. The "fake" car is called the Mini Cooper. :) (I _think_) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 13 15:21:14 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 16:21:14 -0400 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E1DFE3A.5030107@neurotica.com> On 07/13/2011 02:54 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Heh! I'll bet the look was something else. If by Mini you mean > > I had some explaining to do, put it that way... > >> Mini-Cooper, those seem to have become fairly popular in the USA in the > > The Mini Coopr is, IIRC, a version of the same car with somewhat better > performance. > > Note that I am talking about the origianl Mini, not the modern horror > from BMW... Just FYI, that modern horror from BMW is a damn fine automobile. I've had the pleasure of driving several. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 15:19:40 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 17:19:40 -0300 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay References: Message-ID: <352543E580F3456194CE438EF03406B2@portajara> > I amanged to fit a PDP11/44, a PDP8/e, a Sun 3/260, a Northstar Horizon, > an Acorn System 4, assorted smaller micros, printsets, manuals, spare > boards, etc in the back of a Citroen BX. Of coruse it was level at the > end :-) Is there something that takes off-level a Citroen? :o) (I'm crazy for a xantia or XM...) From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 13 15:27:19 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 13:27:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110713131631.X37366@shell.lmi.net> > > (here, the mini is sold by BMW and is a very high price car. There are On Wed, 13 Jul 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > Ah no, that;s the 'new' Mini. And if you think that's areal mini, you > probably also think the the HP Officecalcs are real HP calculators.... > The real mini, which first appeared in 1959 IIRC, is a somewhat smaller > car. The REAL Mini, unlike the BMW MAXI-cooper, has 10" wheel rims with 145x10 to 165/70x10 tires (like the Honda N/Z 600s), transverse engine over transaxle, etc. They corner GREAT! With an aftermarket cam, 4 Weber carb barrels (2 DCOE), etc., it can be modified to put out a level of power that is absurd to have in such a vehicle. Watch "The Italian Job" (The REAL original, not the American remake that uses the MAXI-cooper). The original "Italian Job" had a lot of England's best actors, and the most fantastic stunt driving footage of any movie. To get back closer to topic: the movie has a theme of extreme UK V Italy nationalism, with a group of Brits tampering with the traffic control computers to pull off a robbery. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 13 15:29:25 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 21:29:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4E1DFE3A.5030107@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jul 13, 11 04:21:14 pm Message-ID: > > Note that I am talking about the origianl Mini, not the modern horror > > from BMW... > > Just FYI, that modern horror from BMW is a damn fine automobile. > I've had the pleasure of driving several. Nah, it's got far too many microcontrollers in it to be 'a fine automobile'. And the interior styling looks like a toy (seriously). -tony From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 15:30:53 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 17:30:53 -0300 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay References: <4E1DFE3A.5030107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Just FYI, that modern horror from BMW is a damn fine automobile. I've > had the pleasure of driving several. There is also a clone from china...Looks JUST LIKE a mini cooper. I'll take some photos when I see one around Ah, found some online: http://jalopnik.com/382010/chinese-mini-cooper-clone-revealed-by-lifan-takes-badge+copying-to-new-level-of-crazy http://www.dancewithshadows.com/motor/lifan-320-production-china-2/ http://www.autospies.com/news/MINI-Cooper-Clone-Made-In-China-25609/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 13 15:31:15 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 13:31:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110713132837.R37366@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 13 Jul 2011, Gene Buckle wrote: > The "real" car is called the Cooper Mini. The "fake" car is called the > Mini Cooper. :) (I _think_) Cooper was the manufacturer (back in the REAL days) Actually, there were many brands of THAT car, such as the Austin Mini. The Cooper "MINI S" was widely regarded as the best of the lot. Like a PC clone, parts could be interchanged, and an Austin Mini could be hacked into a comparable configuration. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 13 15:30:20 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 21:30:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Jul 13, 11 01:14:56 pm Message-ID: > The "real" car is called the Cooper Mini. The "fake" car is called the > Mini Cooper. :) (I _think_) Is it? I am sure we had a car over here called a 'Mini Cooper' that was based on the original Mini. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 13 15:33:44 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 13:33:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4E1DFE3A.5030107@neurotica.com> References: <4E1DFE3A.5030107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110713133138.C37366@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 13 Jul 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > Just FYI, that modern horror from BMW is a damn fine automobile. > I've had the pleasure of driving several. OK, it's not bad, and a lot more fun that MOST current cars. But, I still maintain that comparing it with the original "Mini" by Cooper is comparable to comparing Windoze with pre-OSX Mac-OS. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 13 15:38:20 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 21:38:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20110713131631.X37366@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jul 13, 11 01:27:19 pm Message-ID: > > > > (here, the mini is sold by BMW and is a very high price car. There are > > On Wed, 13 Jul 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > > Ah no, that;s the 'new' Mini. And if you think that's areal mini, you > > probably also think the the HP Officecalcs are real HP calculators.... > > The real mini, which first appeared in 1959 IIRC, is a somewhat smaller > > car. > > The REAL Mini, unlike the BMW MAXI-cooper, has 10" wheel rims with 145x10 There was actually an English car called a 'Maxi' too. It was somewhat similar mechancially to the Mini, but larger. > to 165/70x10 tires (like the Honda N/Z 600s), transverse engine over > transaxle, etc. They corner GREAT! With an aftermarket cam, 4 Weber carb Odd feature.. The engine and transmission (wether manual or automatic) use the _same_ oil. I am told the automatic was none-too-reliable, but geting it to work at all using engine oil as the hydraulic fluid was an achievement. Also note that the radiator is alongside the engine in the original Mini. Air comes in through the front grille, goes over the engine, then through the radiator matrix and out under the wheel arch. Chanign the fan belt, or even worse the bottom radiator hose, is 'fun' -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 13 15:41:19 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 13:41:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> Message-ID: <20110713133935.L37366@shell.lmi.net> > > This is something I always wanted to have, It is just me, or the VT100 > > is the most beautiful of all terminals? > Beautiful? Its just you. Well, I doubt that you are beautiful, so it must be the VT100. I always liked the look of an ADM3a! But, Apple's imitation of that case is like the BMW imitation of a Mini. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 13 15:40:15 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 21:40:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <352543E580F3456194CE438EF03406B2@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Jul 13, 11 05:19:40 pm Message-ID: > > > I amanged to fit a PDP11/44, a PDP8/e, a Sun 3/260, a Northstar Horizon, > > an Acorn System 4, assorted smaller micros, printsets, manuals, spare > > boards, etc in the back of a Citroen BX. Of coruse it was level at the > > end :-) > > Is there something that takes off-level a Citroen? :o) Err, a fault in the hydraulic system? > (I'm crazy for a xantia or XM...) I know the feeling. If I ever learn to drive, I want a DS (an original oen, not the modern cars that share the name but don't even have hydraulic suspsension :-(). -tony From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 15:42:56 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 16:42:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Disc for "The SCSI Bus and IDE Interface" (Schmidt) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Jul 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Hi guys, >> >> Does anyone have a copy of the floppy disc (or possibly CD) which >> accompanies the Second Edition of "The SCSI Bus and IDE Interface" by >> Friedhelm Schmidt? > > You are not going to beleive this :-(. I have the book with the disk in > the back, I've just opened the disk envelope for the first ever time. And > the disk has read errors :-( Hey, might be a good testcase for DiscFerret! -- From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 13 15:45:55 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 13:45:55 -0700 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <5134e4e9772f8513ba3bf844a2261d29@cs.ubc.ca> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara>, , <5134e4e9772f8513ba3bf844a2261d29@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4E1DA193.16884.13198BA@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Jul 2011 at 12:21, Brent Hilpert wrote: > re VT05: it certainly was a style of the times (radios, stereos, etc. > got the same treatment), but I almost wonder if these were done by the > same designer: > > http://hummingbirdsales.com/VT05.html "One of the first CRT terminals ever made." I guess any claim, no matter how fallacious will do to sell things. Does anyone collect old TRW or Bunker-Ramo terminals? --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 13 15:49:22 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 16:49:22 -0400 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E1E04D2.9000504@neurotica.com> On 07/13/2011 04:29 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Note that I am talking about the origianl Mini, not the modern horror >>> from BMW... >> >> Just FYI, that modern horror from BMW is a damn fine automobile. >> I've had the pleasure of driving several. > > Nah, it's got far too many microcontrollers in it to be 'a fine > automobile'. And the interior styling looks like a toy (seriously). It rides like it's on rails, it's fast, it has decent cargo capacity, and it's very solid. That's why I like it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 13 15:53:14 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 16:53:14 -0400 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20110713133138.C37366@shell.lmi.net> References: <4E1DFE3A.5030107@neurotica.com> <20110713133138.C37366@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E1E05BA.8000302@neurotica.com> On 07/13/2011 04:33 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 13 Jul 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Just FYI, that modern horror from BMW is a damn fine automobile. >> I've had the pleasure of driving several. > > OK, it's not bad, and a lot more fun that MOST current cars. > > But, I still maintain that comparing it with the original "Mini" by Cooper > is comparable to comparing Windoze with pre-OSX Mac-OS. Probably. But I wasn't comparing it with anything, much less an original Mini. I've never seen a real Mini in the flesh. I grew up going to classic/exotic car shows, was raised by a mother who had several small British cars, and I've STILL never seen a real Mini in the flesh. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 13 15:54:48 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 16:54:48 -0400 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <1310396536.49783.YahooMailClassic@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <52BB9786E723475283C970AADD1E9ED6@portajara> <4E1B3586.7040105@bitsavers.org> <5940D084-0185-4DA1-8FF0-77E32D88F24A@neurotica.com> <4E1B48DA.9090905@jwsss.com> <20110711215836.GA14884@Update.UU.SE> <4E1CA236.6080004@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E1E0618.8060506@neurotica.com> On 07/12/2011 03:53 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> That's me! =) I've had the parts for something like nine months now, >> but have been away from home for eight months. I'm starting the move >> now, and will be set up "for real" soon. > > Hope everything goes well with your new move, Dave! :oD Thanks! We're just getting started, but we'll be rolling trucks from Florida within the next couple of weeks. I'm sitting in the new building now, just getting a temporary desk set up so I can get some work done. I'll get your stuff (and some other goodies!) shipped down to you while we're still in FL, so nothing gets lost in our move. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Jul 13 15:56:11 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 21:56:11 +0100 Subject: Disc for "The SCSI Bus and IDE Interface" (Schmidt) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E1E066B.5010906@philpem.me.uk> On 13/07/11 21:42, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> You are not going to beleive this :-(. I have the book with the disk in >> the back, I've just opened the disk envelope for the first ever time. And >> the disk has read errors :-( > > Hey, might be a good testcase for DiscFerret! If only I had the disc! :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 13 15:56:26 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 16:56:26 -0400 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <1310412250.63395.YahooMailClassic@web113504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E1CA253.4050709@neurotica.com> <4E1CA351.90103@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E1E067A.3050000@neurotica.com> On 07/12/2011 03:48 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > twas a good find almost tried to bike home with it instead i paid a friend > 10bucks to come get me :P > > http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg848/scaled.php?server=848&filename=fisher.jpg&res=medium Good rescue! What was the system originally used for? It was obviously an embedded application; perhaps some sort of industrial control? I remember your talking about it on the other list when you first got it, but I don't recall your mentioning what it was used for. Any idea? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jul 13 15:59:58 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 21:59:58 +0100 Subject: Disc for "The SCSI Bus and IDE Interface" (Schmidt) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> Hi guys, >>> >>> Does anyone have a copy of the floppy disc (or possibly CD) which >>> accompanies the Second Edition of "The SCSI Bus and IDE Interface" >>> by Friedhelm Schmidt? >> >> You are not going to beleive this :-(. I have the book with the disk >> in the back, I've just opened the disk envelope for the first ever >> time. And the disk has read errors :-( > > Hey, might be a good testcase for DiscFerret! I have the book and I'm sure I bought it new so I should have the CD, but my CD wallet at the back is empty. If it ever turns up I'll post here (I'll have forgotten who asked by then :-)). OTOH if someone does have the CD and can image it to an ISO, I'd appreciate a pointer too. Cheers, Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 16:18:53 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 18:18:53 -0300 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay References: Message-ID: > I know the feeling. If I ever learn to drive, I want a DS (an original > oen, not the modern cars that share the name but don't even have > hydraulic suspsension :-(). the new ones has the hydraulic suspension From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 16:28:47 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 18:28:47 -0300 Subject: VT fixums References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara>, , <5134e4e9772f8513ba3bf844a2261d29@cs.ubc.ca> <4E1DA193.16884.13198BA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >> http://hummingbirdsales.com/VT05.html WOW! Beautiful! :oD From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 13 16:44:03 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 14:44:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110713144046.J37366@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 13 Jul 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > There was actually an English car called a 'Maxi' too. It was somewhat > similar mechancially to the Mini, but larger. Hmmm. compared in size to the BMW? "maxi-pad" is an American feminine hygiene product > Odd feature.. The engine and transmission (wether manual or automatic) > use the _same_ oil. I am told the automatic was none-too-reliable, but > geting it to work at all using engine oil as the hydraulic fluid was an > achievement. Interesting. I've never been in an automatic Mini. Was there enough spare power? Although completely separated from the engine, the original Honda Civics used 10W40 engine oil in their manual transmissions. (a carryover from their motorcycle (including N/Z600s) heritage?) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jul 13 16:55:15 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 15:55:15 -0600 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20110713144046.J37366@shell.lmi.net> References: <20110713144046.J37366@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E1E1443.3050903@jetnet.ab.ca> On 7/13/2011 3:44 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Although completely separated from the engine, the original Honda Civics > used 10W40 engine oil in their manual transmissions. (a carryover from > their motorcycle (including N/Z600s) heritage?) Can I subsitute WD40 instead? Anon. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jul 13 16:58:13 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 22:58:13 +0100 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E1E14F5.9030701@dunnington.plus.com> On 13/07/2011 21:38, Tony Duell wrote: > There was actually an English car called a 'Maxi' too. It was somewhat > similar mechancially to the Mini, but larger. Similar in a few respects (same manufacturer, transverse engine, similar front-wheel transmission arrangement) but actually the Maxi was based on the Austin/Morris 1100, which is a bit bigger than a Mini and a rather different shape and a very different interior layout. The Maxi was bigger still - though nevertheless something any American would call a "small car". -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jul 13 16:49:43 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 22:49:43 +0100 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20110713132837.R37366@shell.lmi.net> References: <20110713132837.R37366@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E1E12F7.6030609@dunnington.plus.com> On 13/07/2011 21:31, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 13 Jul 2011, Gene Buckle wrote: >> The "real" car is called the Cooper Mini. The "fake" car is called the >> Mini Cooper. :) (I _think_) > > Cooper was the manufacturer (back in the REAL days) > Actually, there were many brands of THAT car, such as the Austin Mini. > The Cooper "MINI S" was widely regarded as the best of the lot. Actually Cooper never made Minis. They didn't mass-produce /any/ cars. They /designed/ engines, and the designs were used in certain versions of the Mini. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jul 13 16:45:39 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 22:45:39 +0100 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E1E1203.4080300@dunnington.plus.com> On 13/07/2011 21:14, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Wed, 13 Jul 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> Ah no, that;s the 'new' Mini. And if you think that's areal mini, you >> probably also think the the HP Officecalcs are real HP calculators.... >> >> The real mini, which first appeared in 1959 IIRC, is a somewhat smaller >> car. > The "real" car is called the Cooper Mini. The "fake" car is called the > Mini Cooper. :) (I _think_) Er, no. The original vehicle is called a Mini. There were two brands, Morris Mini and Austin Mini, though that's just an accident of British industrial history, as they were made by a conglomerate that had bought both brand names (if you want to know, look up "British Leyland" and "BMC"). Then came the souped-up versions. Cooper is/was a company that made racing cars and engines (for Formula 3 and Formula 1, for example). They also designed engine upgrades for lesser vehicles, and the Minis with Cooper-modified engines were called Mini Coopers. The extra-special sports version of that was the Mini Cooper S. The modern ones are called also called Mini Coopers, but only because it sounds sexier. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 13 17:48:38 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 15:48:38 -0700 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara>, Message-ID: <4E1DBE56.936.1A1F3C9@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Jul 2011 at 18:28, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >> http://hummingbirdsales.com/VT05.html > > WOW! Beautiful! :oD Yes, but the ergonomics suck. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Jul 13 18:25:13 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 00:25:13 +0100 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20110713131631.X37366@shell.lmi.net> References: <20110713131631.X37366@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E1E2959.1030807@philpem.me.uk> On 13/07/11 21:27, Fred Cisin wrote: > Watch "The Italian Job" (The REAL original, not the American remake that > uses the MAXI-cooper). The original "Italian Job" had a lot of England's > best actors, and the most fantastic stunt driving footage of any movie. "You were only supposed to blow the bloody doors off!" Best movie quote ever (but only when delivered by Michael Caine -- the imitations pale by comparison!) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Jul 13 18:27:34 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 00:27:34 +0100 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4E1E1443.3050903@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20110713144046.J37366@shell.lmi.net> <4E1E1443.3050903@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4E1E29E6.3020006@philpem.me.uk> On 13/07/11 22:55, ben wrote: > Can I subsitute WD40 instead? > Anon. Only if you don't mind myself and Tony giving you a long and arduous lecture about how WD40 isn't a lubricant (they can call it a lubricant all they like, but that doesn't make it one!) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From jws at jwsss.com Wed Jul 13 18:34:35 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 16:34:35 -0700 Subject: Disc for "The SCSI Bus and IDE Interface" (Schmidt) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E1E2B8B.9070300@jwsss.com> On 7/13/2011 1:59 PM, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Does anyone have a copy of the floppy disc (or possibly CD) which > >>> accompanies the Second Edition of "The SCSI Bus and IDE Interface" > >>> by Friedhelm Schmidt? A scan down amazon shows that there is a $29.95 copy which specifically mentions a diskette included (1mostlybooks). there are several at lower prices which don't indicate one, and one that specifically says "no diskette". You might check with the cheapo ones on there and see if they have one with with the diskette (that is with the ones that didn't say one way or the other). you might get lucky. If one of the $3.06 ones one, that + $3.99 would get you a copy. (in us) Jim From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 18:36:42 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 20:36:42 -0300 Subject: Disc for "The SCSI Bus and IDE Interface" (Schmidt) References: <4E1E2B8B.9070300@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > You might check with the cheapo ones on there and see if they have one > with with the diskette (that is with the ones that didn't say one way or > the other). you might get lucky. If one of the $3.06 ones one, that + > $3.99 would get you a copy. (in us) And the diskless copy can be always offered for nice friends of the third world, like, as an example, Brazil ;) Hey, I live in Brazil, sunny place around here :) From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Jul 13 18:51:49 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 00:51:49 +0100 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4E1DFE3A.5030107@neurotica.com> References: <4E1DFE3A.5030107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E1E2F95.2030805@philpem.me.uk> On 13/07/11 21:21, Dave McGuire wrote: > Just FYI, that modern horror from BMW is a damn fine automobile. I've > had the pleasure of driving several. One of my friends had one for a while... IMHO it's an "OK" car, but with one big 'why the fsck did they do that?': putting the damn speedometer dead centre between the front driver and passenger seats. Sorry, but I want all the important gauges in one place WHERE I CAN SEE THEM, not half-way across the blasted car! -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 20:53:23 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 21:53:23 -0400 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <4E1DBE56.936.1A1F3C9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <4E1DBE56.936.1A1F3C9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Yes, but the ergonomics suck. Cutting edge industrial design and sucky ergonomics generally go and in hand. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 20:57:11 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 21:57:11 -0400 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <4E1DA193.16884.13198BA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <5134e4e9772f8513ba3bf844a2261d29@cs.ubc.ca> <4E1DA193.16884.13198BA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > "One of the first CRT terminals ever made." > > I guess any claim, no matter how fallacious will do to sell things. In the grand scheme of things, is that claim really all that false? Out of the tens of thousands of different species of terminals in the past 50-odd years, VT05 is pretty damn early in the game. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 21:07:59 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 22:07:59 -0400 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <5AA8DA37D24241F8A72DB2C034BA242D@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4E1D7BF7.9000905@hachti.de> <4E1DE364.5090700@gmail.com> Message-ID: > A year or two back, I had several VT220s available in > dirty-but-confirmed-working shape from an auto dealer's parts counter, > and I couldn't generate any interest. ?These were at FreeGeek > Columbus, so when they didn't sell intact, they were scrapped out. > > They aren't easy to ship, and they certainly aren't light, but it > seems unless they are purchased in person, there's not so much demand. I have a few VT220s I could part with, with the original shipping boxes. The annoying thing is that the keyboards apparently were shipped separately. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 13 21:32:58 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 19:32:58 -0700 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara>, <4E1DA193.16884.13198BA@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4E1DF2EA.10883.26F5434@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Jul 2011 at 21:57, William Donzelli wrote: > > "One of the first CRT terminals ever made." > > > > I guess any claim, no matter how fallacious will do to sell things. > > In the grand scheme of things, is that claim really all that false? > > Out of the tens of thousands of different species of terminals in the > past 50-odd years, VT05 is pretty damn early in the game. CRT terminals extend well back into the mid 60s. Bunker-Ramo, in particular had some very advanced units; e.g., the 213. While looking for some photos of the 213 and the 203, I ran across this document from 1967 that describes an online data retrieval system using what looks like a 213: http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19670030754_19670 30754.pdf Si Ramo is still with us, the last I heard (he'd be 98). The VT05 was a newcomer. I believe that the Datapoint 3300 even beat it by a year or so, even if DEC called it the VT06. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 13 21:34:53 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 19:34:53 -0700 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara>, , Message-ID: <4E1DF35D.0.271179E@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Jul 2011 at 22:07, William Donzelli wrote: Anyone know who made the VT220 clone for TAB (sold under their own name)? I had to do some firmware mods for it and never did figure out who made the thing. It was very well constructed. --Chuck From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu Jul 14 00:35:31 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 06:35:31 +0100 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <914109BA32964CC1B562D00D0D2BFA47@portajara> References: <2043958224-1310536343-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-555060714-@b2.c1.bise3.blackberry> <914109BA32964CC1B562D00D0D2BFA47@portajara> Message-ID: <16A78E7C88F044D990D4C10CE8D09716@RODSDEVSYSTEM> And now Ladies and Gentlemen presenting: a beauty contest for computer terminals!! Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza - Listas Sent: 13 July 2011 11:17 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: VT fixums > It's just you, the most beautiful of all terminals is a dead heat between > a 3278 and a 3190! Yep, the 3278 is beautiful :) But I want a VT-100 :D From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu Jul 14 00:43:52 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 06:43:52 +0100 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: from "Richard" at Jul 13, 11 11:22:21 am Message-ID: Nasty thing that printer - It had a sharp serrated tear off bar and loads of people got cut by it. If I remember rightly it had a helically wound wire on a cylinder running against a bar on the other side of the paper. It was said it worked in the same way as the WWII German Hellschreiber fax system. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 13 July 2011 20:11 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: VT fixums > > I must be very lucky ... > > I own a VT55-FB (similar to VT-52), one VT05 *and* the Dasher D2. > > Yes, you are very lucky. You're the only person I know of that has > the VT55: VT52 + graphics. Now you know 2 such people. I have a (working) VT55 with the 'copier' (electrolytic printer) installed. I've never managed to get that to work 9maybe jsut old paper, etc) but the rest of the terminal works perfectiy. One odd thing abotu the VT52 is that the PCBs are all single-sided with hundreds of wire links., Was that really cheaper/more relaible than a double-sided PCB? The VT55 graphics board is actually the same form factor as a DEC Hex-height board, but the edge conenctors don't plug into anything (I forget if the fingersare conencted to anytraces o nthe PCB), there are some cables soldered to the board that plug into the VTv2 logic boards. -tony From CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie Wed Jul 13 05:50:04 2011 From: CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 11:50:04 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: VT fixums Message-ID: <01O3LH4YWI6Q0037M6@beyondthepale.ie> > >From the day I saw the first complete VT100 prototype sitting on the bench >at the Digital Terminals Product Line offices in Marlboro Mass. I have >always considered the VT100 to be the classic terminal. It led the way for >many years and VT100 compatibility was universal. > >No other terminal had the impact VT100 did. I can't remember how many >thousand I sold in the UK whilst at DEC but it was lots. > >You cannot get a more classic icon in computing than the DEC VT100. > I have kinda mixed feelings about the VT100, possibly coloured by having to deal with a large batch of secondhand, secondgrade examples at college. The cases were fragile and yellowed and the keyboards often could not cope with student use. There were a lot of minor video faults, typically vertical linearity. Older and grottier ADM5 terminals seemed to be built like tanks in comparison. The thing that irritated me the most was the loud and grating beep. They seemed slow for a given bitrate compared to other terminals, even after turning off the smooth scroll (which was quite cool if you ever had time to wait for it which noone ever did). The VT100 protocol was a great step forward but it seemed slightly over-complicated and bloated. A pity that many writers of terminal emulators and terminal driver software failed to grasp the point of it and came up with broken implementations. I was much happier with the VT220 which seemed to solve a lot of the version 1.0 issues of the VT100. However, it didn't really look like a terminal. Maybe a VT220 in a Commodore PET case would better fit the bill :-) I have an ADM5 and a VT220 but I would not be interested in having a VT100. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From tingox at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 06:03:55 2011 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 13:03:55 +0200 Subject: Terminal Styling (was VT fixums) In-Reply-To: <4E1C69EC.12178.14C3067@cclist.sydex.com> References: <51e0d89b56c7988ee39e04fd2cc36358@cs.ubc.ca> <4E1C69EC.12178.14C3067@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 12:36 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12 Jul 2011 at 14:58, Rick Bensene wrote: > > >> Yeah, they were good (albeit somewhat unreliable) terminals, ?but from >> a styling standpoint, the Ann Arbor Ambassadors were...well, fugly, >> IMHO. I too spent many hours behind these terminals (Tektronix bought >> tons of them..which was strange, since Tek made its own terminals), >> and I did like the crisp display, and the wide mode. ?Made it great >> for viewing FORTRAN complier listing outputs from the CDC Cyber 73. > > My favorite was an early 80s Tandberg terminal. ?Controlled-contrast > keyboard, beautiful display, very solid. ? I had a TDV-2000-series > terminal on loan in my office. ?I was very sad when it left and was > replaced by a Beehive VT220 clone. I still have a ND 320 terminal (aka Tandberg TDV 2200/9 S) it is connected as console to the ND Satellite/9 minicomputer I have. The keyboard on the Tandberg terminals is one of the best keyboards I have used. I would like to have a Tandberg TDV 1200 terminal, the follow-up to the 2000-series. It had better VT-220 compatability and all models had the black-on-white screen. Nice. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen, Norway From philpem at philpem.me.uk Wed Jul 13 09:24:58 2011 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 15:24:58 +0100 Subject: Disc for "The SCSI Bus and IDE Interface" (Schmidt) Message-ID: <4E1DAABA.9030108@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, Does anyone have a copy of the floppy disc (or possibly CD) which accompanies the Second Edition of "The SCSI Bus and IDE Interface" by Friedhelm Schmidt? I just bought an ex-library copy of this, and the disc is naturally missing. The local library is showing their copy as "Sold/disposed, content no longer relevant"... Thanks, -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie Wed Jul 13 13:37:16 2011 From: CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 19:37:16 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: VT fixums Message-ID: <01O3LY20EUXE0036LH@beyondthepale.ie> > >For all of its faults it was still the market leader. > >Did you know you could plug a B&W TV camera into the back of a VT100 and see >the picture on the screen? I did it at Dec Park (Reading UK) one day and >drew a large crowd. > I can remember the tiny on/off switch and the vertical DB25 connector but that is all I recall about the back of a VT100. I guess there must have been a BNC connector? I do vaguely recall occasionally having to dissuade academic staff from plugging their thinwire ethernet segment into the back of their terminal but I don't remember which type. I suppose it was probably the VT100. Did the terminal automatically sense an external video connection or was it necessary to manually disable the video generated internally? I guess it was probably expecting 525 lines, 60Hz but could cope with 625 lines, 50Hz? My VT220 has a BNC connector on the back but in this case it is an output. It produces a nice picture on a monochrome 625 line 50Hz monitor after adjusting the vertical hold. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie Wed Jul 13 14:03:08 2011 From: CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 20:03:08 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: VT fixums Message-ID: <01O3LZWJRJ6Q0035TG@beyondthepale.ie> > >A year or two back, I had several VT220s available in >dirty-but-confirmed-working shape from an auto dealer's parts counter, >and I couldn't generate any interest. These were at FreeGeek >Columbus, so when they didn't sell intact, they were scrapped out. > Are the bits still around? I am looking for a flyback transformer for a VT220. There are at least two different types but I suspect the differences are physical only and I could use either type. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From wgungfu at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 15:35:04 2011 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 15:35:04 -0500 Subject: Northern Telecom DisplayPhone? Message-ID: Hoping someone from the list can help, I'm trying to track down a Northern Telecom DisplayPhone for the archive. http://dxiconsulting.com/images/northern%20telecom%20displayphone%20circa%201984-2%20small.jpg Actually had one years ago as a kid, and what I used for BBS'ing in the early 80's. So it holds sentimental value besides archival. -- Marty From djg at pdp8online.com Wed Jul 13 19:57:56 2011 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 20:57:56 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 documents needed Message-ID: <201107140057.p6E0vuRt026020@hugin2.pdp8online.com> I recently acquired a PDP-8/L system with BM08 memory expansion and Computer Operations CO-600 LINC tape drive. Does anybody have documentation on the BM08 (preferably the 8K additional core model) or the LINC tape drive? I looked in the normal spots and didn't find any. The closest was the MC8/L 4K memory option on bitsavers. If interested pictures are here until I create a real page: http://www.pdp8online.com/ftp/misc/pdp8l/ From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu Jul 14 02:03:38 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 08:03:38 +0100 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <01O3LY20EUXE0036LH@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01O3LY20EUXE0036LH@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: There were (still are) two BNC connectors on the back of the VT100. One was video out which I used with the camera sync input and the other is video in. This locked the picture to the data video. Regards ? Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Peter Coghlan Sent: 13 July 2011 19:37 To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: VT fixums > >For all of its faults it was still the market leader. > >Did you know you could plug a B&W TV camera into the back of a VT100 and see >the picture on the screen? I did it at Dec Park (Reading UK) one day and >drew a large crowd. > I can remember the tiny on/off switch and the vertical DB25 connector but that is all I recall about the back of a VT100. I guess there must have been a BNC connector? I do vaguely recall occasionally having to dissuade academic staff from plugging their thinwire ethernet segment into the back of their terminal but I don't remember which type. I suppose it was probably the VT100. Did the terminal automatically sense an external video connection or was it necessary to manually disable the video generated internally? I guess it was probably expecting 525 lines, 60Hz but could cope with 625 lines, 50Hz? My VT220 has a BNC connector on the back but in this case it is an output. It produces a nice picture on a monochrome 625 line 50Hz monitor after adjusting the vertical hold. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu Jul 14 02:08:18 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 08:08:18 +0100 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara><5AA8DA37D24241F8A72DB2C034BA242D@RODSDEVSYSTEM><4E1D7BF7.9000905@hachti.de><4E1DE364.5090700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <09AFD4DDD18143A0B72B367F51E68BEA@RODSDEVSYSTEM> You can use almost any LK series keyboard. Regards ? Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli Sent: 14 July 2011 03:08 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: VT fixums > A year or two back, I had several VT220s available in > dirty-but-confirmed-working shape from an auto dealer's parts counter, > and I couldn't generate any interest. ?These were at FreeGeek > Columbus, so when they didn't sell intact, they were scrapped out. > > They aren't easy to ship, and they certainly aren't light, but it > seems unless they are purchased in person, there's not so much demand. I have a few VT220s I could part with, with the original shipping boxes. The annoying thing is that the keyboards apparently were shipped separately. -- Will From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Jul 14 03:54:16 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 10:54:16 +0200 (CEST) Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara><5AA8DA37D24241F8A72DB2C034BA242D@RODSDEVSYSTEM><4E1D7BF7.9000905@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Jul 2011, Richard wrote: >> I must be very lucky ... >> I own a VT55-FB (similar to VT-52), one VT05 *and* the Dasher D2. > > Yes, you are very lucky. You're the only person I know of that has > the VT55: VT52 + graphics. Google for "DEC VT55", first result: apparently, we have one, too ;-) Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Jul 14 04:04:35 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 11:04:35 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Jul 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > Note that I am talking about the origianl Mini, not the modern horror > from BMW... In other words, Mr. Bean's car ;-) Christian From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 04:11:45 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 06:11:45 -0300 Subject: VT fixums References: <01O3LY20EUXE0036LH@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <1F63EA81EF0F47EDA34D0E5CC3B771B3@portajara> >There were (still are) two BNC connectors on the back of the VT100. >One was video out which I used with the camera sync input and the other is >video in. This locked the picture to the data video. ??? What in the (insert your preffered expletives here, be criative!) a VIDEO IN is doing behind an (old) terminal?! Watch NBC while working on the company spreadsheet??? :oD Hmmm...1984? :D INSOC watching you while you work? :D hahahahaha From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Jul 14 06:33:12 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 07:33:12 -0400 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <5AA8DA37D24241F8A72DB2C034BA242D@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4E1D7BF7.9000905@hachti.de> <4E1DE364.5090700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4E1ED3F8.8080805@compsys.to> >Ethan Dicks wrote: >I liked the VT100 styling much more than the VT220 - easier to stack. >Really. (at one place, we had an office with six VT100s - two levels >of three terminals - very handy for watching multiple stderr streams >at once - quite extravagant, though, as even the clones were costing >us $1600 each at the time). > I still use that same solution for my PDP-11/83 system except that I mix the VT100 and VT220 terminals with the added requirement that all of the bottom layer must be VT100 terminals. The only real problem was where to place the second keyboard. When a VT100 was the top layer, it could go on top. When a VT220 was the second layer, there was enough room on top of the bottom VT100. In my case, I use the additional VT100 / VT220 terminals under a multi-terminal version of RT-11 as the terminal for a KEX job to display the LST file from MACRO-11. Four system jobs allows a reasonable portion of the file to be displayed which has the code that was just written and is being debugged under SDX.SYS using a Mapped RT-11 monitor. Alternatively, while new code was being written, the other four KEX jobs were able to search the current version of the LST file for whatever was needed to be checked while the new code was being written - as opposed to having a hard copy listing. Having four additional KEX jobs to show the current version of the listing finally allowed a shift to a paperless mode of adding code to current programs. I remember printing out LST files of a THOUSAND pages or more for an RT-11 monitor. That part I no longer miss. Of course, it does not hurt that the current disk drives on the PDP-11/83 are 600 MB as opposed to the 10 MB RL02 drives I used even in 1989 on one project. The solution was not even near to being extravagant in my case since all of the terminals were acquired at a very reasonable cost when they were disposed of by the original owners. As for running on the Ersatz-11 emulator, the six VT100s are no longer needed. Ersatz-11 is able to switch from one "terminal" to another by using the keys. The shift is just as fast as when I used to turn my head to look from one physical VT100 to the other when all six VT100s were on the same desk. PLUS, there is some hope that KEX can be enhanced to support 50 lines instead of just 24. That should make a big difference. Is anyone interested in running a 50 line KEX under Ersatz-11 to help with a test drive? Jerome Fine From pontus at update.uu.se Thu Jul 14 06:49:12 2011 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 13:49:12 +0200 Subject: Available (not mine): Symbolics 3650 Message-ID: <4E1ED7B8.4000300@update.uu.se> Hi I don't normally post links like this, but this machine deserves a good home: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/zip/2493135053.html I'd take it myself.. but you know... shipping and all that. Regards, Pontus. From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu Jul 14 07:10:34 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 13:10:34 +0100 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <1F63EA81EF0F47EDA34D0E5CC3B771B3@portajara> References: <01O3LY20EUXE0036LH@beyondthepale.ie> <1F63EA81EF0F47EDA34D0E5CC3B771B3@portajara> Message-ID: Easy - data on what you see on the screen. Say a picture of an extruder with Temp and pressure on the screen. VT100 was black and white so the picture replaced the black background. A modern security camera with a sync input would probably work. Its good old 1v/75R Video. There's even a 50Hz option in the setup. Thirty five odd years and nobody has ever mentioned that one. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza - Listas Sent: 14 July 2011 10:12 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: VT fixums >There were (still are) two BNC connectors on the back of the VT100. >One was video out which I used with the camera sync input and the other is >video in. This locked the picture to the data video. ??? What in the (insert your preffered expletives here, be criative!) a VIDEO IN is doing behind an (old) terminal?! Watch NBC while working on the company spreadsheet??? :oD Hmmm...1984? :D INSOC watching you while you work? :D hahahahaha From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 08:18:54 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 09:18:54 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 documents needed In-Reply-To: <201107140057.p6E0vuRt026020@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <201107140057.p6E0vuRt026020@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 8:57 PM, David Gesswein wrote: > I recently acquired a PDP-8/L system with BM08 memory expansion and Computer > Operations CO-600 LINC tape drive. Nice. > Does anybody have documentation on the BM08 (preferably the 8K additional > core model) or the LINC tape drive? I looked in the normal spots and didn't > find any. The closest was the MC8/L 4K memory option on bitsavers. I would also be interested in documentation - I have had a BM08 for a long time. It works, thankfully, but I've never had docs for it. It's part of one of my long-term projects to get OS/8 running on a pre-OMNIBUS machine. I've not yet been able to put together a machine with enough core and a mass storage device, even an emulated Posibus or Negibus storage device (this BM/08 is the only memory expansion I have). -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 08:31:31 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 09:31:31 -0400 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <01O3LY20EUXE0036LH@beyondthepale.ie> <1F63EA81EF0F47EDA34D0E5CC3B771B3@portajara> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 8:10 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > VT100... the picture replaced the black background. A modern security camera... > would probably work. Its good old 1v/75R Video. Yep. > Thirty five odd years and nobody has ever mentioned that one. We knew about it in the 80s, but we never found a practical use for the feature (we did software development and testing in the office - manufacturing was done offsite at a wave solderer elsewhere in the State, so there was really nothing going on that we cared to capture on a video camera). -ethan From rickb at bensene.com Thu Jul 14 09:05:23 2011 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 07:05:23 -0700 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <4E1DF2EA.10883.26F5434@cclist.sydex.com> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara>, <4E1DA193.16884.13198BA@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E1DF2EA.10883.26F5434@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > > CRT terminals extend well back into the mid 60s. Bunker-Ramo, in > particular had some very advanced units; e.g., the 213. While > looking for some photos of the 213 and the 203, I ran across this > document from 1967 that describes an online data retrieval system > using what looks like a 213: > > http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19670030754_1967030 754.pdf > This was a great read from a historical standpoint. According to the text, the system used Bunker-Ramo Teleregister Model 203 display stations with a "full alphanumeric keyboard, a bank of function keys, and a CRT screen on which twelve lines of 32 characters each may be presented". Was the photo of a 203? Were the characters on these terminals stroke generated, or raster? It seems that a lot of early character displays were either stroke generated, or used charactron(sp?) tubes (electron beam first directed through a mask with character stencils, then deflected to the correct position on the screen), with raster coming later. I knew Bunker Ramo made terminals, but had no idea how early some of them were made. Rick Bensene From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 09:56:02 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 09:56:02 -0500 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <5AA8DA37D24241F8A72DB2C034BA242D@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4E1D7BF7.9000905@hachti.de> <4E1DE364.5090700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4E1F0382.6040305@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I still regret giving >> mine away, and will hopefully find another one sometime! :-) > > A year or two back, I had several VT220s available in > dirty-but-confirmed-working shape from an auto dealer's parts counter, > and I couldn't generate any interest. These were at FreeGeek > Columbus, so when they didn't sell intact, they were scrapped out. > > They aren't easy to ship, and they certainly aren't light, but it > seems unless they are purchased in person, there's not so much demand. I think that's the problem; a person would have to be *really* enthusiastic about them to justify the shipping costs, when they could spend that same amount in shipping something far more interesting. Local pick-ups are a lot easier to justify, but I've not heard of there ever being any DEC equipment in use in this area (local government around here seems to have been on AS/400 in the past, and we're so sparsely-populated up here that prior to that it wouldn't surprise me if they weren't on dial-up to remote sites for their number-crunching needs) cheers Jules From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 10:17:59 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 10:17:59 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 documents needed In-Reply-To: References: <201107140057.p6E0vuRt026020@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: would any of that stuff be buried in the 8a documentation? On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 8:18 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 8:57 PM, David Gesswein > wrote: > > I recently acquired a PDP-8/L system with BM08 memory expansion and > Computer > > Operations CO-600 LINC tape drive. > > Nice. > > > Does anybody have documentation on the BM08 (preferably the 8K additional > > core model) or the LINC tape drive? I looked in the normal spots and > didn't > > find any. The closest was the MC8/L 4K memory option on bitsavers. > > I would also be interested in documentation - I have had a BM08 for a > long time. It works, thankfully, but I've never had docs for it. > > It's part of one of my long-term projects to get OS/8 running on a > pre-OMNIBUS machine. I've not yet been able to put together a machine > with enough core and a mass storage device, even an emulated Posibus > or Negibus storage device (this BM/08 is the only memory expansion I > have). > > -ethan > From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 10:23:30 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 08:23:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1310657010.33708.YahooMailClassic@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 7/14/11, Rick Bensene wrote: > > I knew Bunker Ramo made terminals, but had no idea how > early some of > them were made. I have a Bunker Ramo terminal. The picture it produces is very fuzzy though: http://imgur.com/LkYNz.jpg -Ian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 10:24:24 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 11:24:24 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 documents needed In-Reply-To: References: <201107140057.p6E0vuRt026020@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 11:17 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > would any of that stuff be buried in the 8a documentation? Not likely - there's about 8-10 years difference in the product lines. -ethan From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Jul 14 12:06:51 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 10:06:51 -0700 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <1310657010.33708.YahooMailClassic@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1310657010.33708.YahooMailClassic@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mr Ian Primus > Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 8:24 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: RE: VT fixums > > --- On Thu, 7/14/11, Rick Bensene wrote: > > > > > I knew Bunker Ramo made terminals, but had no idea how > > early some of > > them were made. > > I have a Bunker Ramo terminal. The picture it produces is very fuzzy though: > > http://imgur.com/LkYNz.jpg > > -Ian Hm, who last serviced this terminal? They seem to have replaced your CRT with a CAT. Oh well, given the poor quality of some of the old documentation, I can see someone reading 'A' instead of 'R' - an honest mistake, I suppose. -- Ian (we're everywhere!) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 12:10:31 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 13:10:31 -0400 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <1310657010.33708.YahooMailClassic@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1310657010.33708.YahooMailClassic@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 11:23 AM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > I have a Bunker Ramo terminal. The picture it produces is very fuzzy though: > > http://imgur.com/LkYNz.jpg Your CAT scan is done. -ethan From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 12:17:04 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 14:17:04 -0300 Subject: VT fixums References: <1310657010.33708.YahooMailClassic@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <58A0ED9D38354AC99AE0FE6E7DBC3CF4@portajara> >> I have a Bunker Ramo terminal. The picture it produces is very fuzzy >> though: >> http://imgur.com/LkYNz.jpg This is the first time I see a 3D image produced by a terminal... Is it a VThreeD100? From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 14 12:29:35 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 10:29:35 -0700 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara>, <4E1DF2EA.10883.26F5434@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4E1EC50F.7310.40F853@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Jul 2011 at 7:05, Rick Bensene wrote: > According to the text, the system used Bunker-Ramo Teleregister Model > 203 display stations with a "full alphanumeric keyboard, a bank of > function keys, and a CRT screen on which twelve lines of 32 characters > each may be presented". Was the photo of a 203? There's not a lot about early BR stuff out there, but I thought the terminal was a 213; I think the display on the 203 was larger. > Were the characters on these terminals stroke generated, or raster? It > seems that a lot of early character displays were either stroke > generated, or used charactron(sp?) tubes (electron beam first directed > through a mask with character stencils, then deflected to the correct > position on the screen), with raster coming later. A mix of both technologies, I think. The CDC 200 UT from 1968 or so used a 5x7 dot matrix, but the console display was pure vector. I don't know about the BR 200 series, however. It's a shame that BR doesn't get much mention (Bitsavers has the BR documents in the TRW folder for some reason). They had some remarkable gear, including an industrial process control computer in 1959, not to mention the jewel in the crown--the NASDAQ trading system. --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 13:14:09 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 13:14:09 -0500 Subject: Available (not mine): Symbolics 3650 In-Reply-To: <4E1ED7B8.4000300@update.uu.se> References: <4E1ED7B8.4000300@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 6:49 AM, Pontus wrote: > Hi > > I don't normally post links like this, but this machine deserves a good > home: > > http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/zip/2493135053.html Gut-wrenching to see a machine like that dumped on the curb. If anyone gets it, let us know what you find inside :) -- jht From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jul 14 13:16:11 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 11:16:11 -0700 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <4E1EC50F.7310.40F853@cclist.sydex.com> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara>, <4E1DF2EA.10883.26F5434@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E1EC50F.7310.40F853@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E1F326B.1050905@bitsavers.org> On 7/14/11 10:29 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > (Bitsavers has the BR > documents in the TRW folder for some reason). Bunker-Ramo was a spinoff of TRW (see the '64 newsletter) From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 14 14:05:49 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 12:05:49 -0700 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <4E1F326B.1050905@bitsavers.org> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara>, <4E1EC50F.7310.40F853@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E1F326B.1050905@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E1EDB9D.5099.9912B4@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Jul 2011 at 11:16, Al Kossow wrote: > On 7/14/11 10:29 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > (Bitsavers has the BR > > documents in the TRW folder for some reason). > > Bunker-Ramo was a spinoff of TRW (see the '64 newsletter) I understand your viewpointt, but BR was an independent entity for many years after that. I owned stock in BR (ticker symbol BUNR) before their acqusition of Amphenol in 67, so there must have been an IPO sometime around 1965 (I still own that stock, but with the Allied name on it. Call me sentimental). I can see how mergers, spinoffs and aquisitions can create a filing nightmare, but some sort of linkup would be useful, even if it's only a text note that says "see: ...". One need only consider the case of Amphenol, one time independent, then part of Borg, then part of Bunker Ramo, then part of Allied Chemical, then the target of various arbitrage operations. --Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Jul 14 15:30:19 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 13:30:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Seeking Morrow MPZ80 rev3a PALs Message-ID: I sold a Morrow MPZ80 rev3a S100 CPU board to someone recently (who is probably on this list). Somehow I didn't notice that the board was missing chip 15A. I don't have any more MPZ80 rev3a board with that part still mounted. What I want to do is find someone who has this board in a working state to dump that PAL for me. I don't have the ability to dump and burn PALs, but I'm working with some people who do to get this oversight fixed. If you can't dump PALs, please contact me anyhow so we can get something set up. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 15:39:07 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 16:39:07 -0400 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <4E1EC50F.7310.40F853@cclist.sydex.com> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <4E1DF2EA.10883.26F5434@cclist.sydex.com> <4E1EC50F.7310.40F853@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > They had some > remarkable gear, including an industrial process control computer in > 1959, not to mention the jewel in the crown--the NASDAQ trading > system. The jewel fell out of the crown. By mid-1980, NASDAQ was a DEC shop(s). -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 15:53:40 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 16:53:40 -0400 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <4E1DA193.16884.13198BA@cclist.sydex.com> <4E1DF2EA.10883.26F5434@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > It > seems that a lot of early character displays were either stroke > generated, or used charactron(sp?) tubes (electron beam first directed > through a mask with character stencils, then deflected to the correct > position on the screen), with raster coming later. There were competing raster based terminal systems in the 1960s. The IBM approach was to have one big box do all the thinking for all the terminals, with the terminals being not much more than TVs with keyboards (2848/2260) - I suppose with one brain doing all the work, you could save a bunch of expensive circuitry. The other approach was to use a tiny monoscope, with the target having an array of characters that could be raster scanned by a jumping beam. This is not as kludgey as it sounds. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 16:14:10 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 17:14:10 -0400 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <4E1DA193.16884.13198BA@cclist.sydex.com> <4E1DF2EA.10883.26F5434@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > The other approach was to use a tiny monoscope, with the target having > an array of characters that could be raster scanned by a jumping beam. > This is not as kludgey as it sounds. CK1414 is a typical tube: http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_ck1414.html -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 14 16:34:54 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 14:34:54 -0700 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara>, <4E1EC50F.7310.40F853@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4E1EFE8E.31796.1218FCE@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Jul 2011 at 16:39, William Donzelli wrote: > > They had some > > remarkable gear, including an industrial process control computer in > > 1959, not to mention the jewel in the crown--the NASDAQ trading > > system. > > The jewel fell out of the crown. By mid-1980, NASDAQ was a DEC > shop(s). Didn't matter--by that time, my BR stock bore the Allied name. They still pay dividends. --Chuck From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Jul 14 16:38:02 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 22:38:02 +0100 Subject: Identifying the Surge Suppression Resistor in PDP11 H7140 PSU In-Reply-To: References: from "Dave Caroline" at Jul 12, 11 08:49:05 pm Message-ID: <00c601cc426e$50cfc050$f26f40f0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 12 July 2011 21:37 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Identifying the Surge Suppression Resistor in PDP11 H7140 PSU > > > > > there are two designs of the relay assembly on the H7140 fiche here, > > the old ones parts list has a Resistor (R1) 3 ohm 5% 7 W 13-14848-00 > > That's the one shown in the printset on Bitsavers (and in my paper 11/44 > printset) I have been looking at the same printset as Tony has. Dave, is there any chance you could photograph the fiche pages for the input assembly and the bias and interface board? Regardless of image quality it would still be better than nothing. > > > > > the new one has a sub assembly on that with thermistor listed as > > Thermistor 7.0 10% dec part number 13-17198-00 > > Looks like my guess 'it's a DEC part number' was right. > > Waht does the 7.0 refer to here? The cold resistance? If so, it sould be > possible to find soemthign that will work. The physical dimensions of the > original part will give some idea as to the current rating. I still need to identify a suitable replacement for the bad inrush limiter, any clue what I should look for based on the information above? > > Are there any other changs between the 2 versions of the PSU? If you fitted a > 3 Ohm reistor to the later version, would it work correctly? > What was the reason for the change? > One question I have is this. My bias and interface board had what looked like a broken track, and it did look broken rather than deliberately cut. However, could you look at the fiche printset you have, which probably corresponds more closely to the PSU I actually have, and tell me if the collector of Q2 (p87 of the other printset on bitsavers) is connected to anything? > > Dave Caroline > > -tony From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Jul 14 18:05:21 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 16:05:21 -0700 Subject: Available (not mine): Symbolics 3650 In-Reply-To: References: <4E1ED7B8.4000300@update.uu.se>, Message-ID: It found a home - unfortunately, not with us. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jason T [silent700 at gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 11:14 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Available (not mine): Symbolics 3650 On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 6:49 AM, Pontus wrote: > Hi > > I don't normally post links like this, but this machine deserves a good > home: > > http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/zip/2493135053.html Gut-wrenching to see a machine like that dumped on the curb. If anyone gets it, let us know what you find inside :) -- jht From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jul 14 18:15:35 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 19:15:35 -0400 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <4E1DA193.16884.13198BA@cclist.sydex.com> <4E1DF2EA.10883.26F5434@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E1F7897.6030505@neurotica.com> On 07/14/2011 05:14 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> The other approach was to use a tiny monoscope, with the target having >> an array of characters that could be raster scanned by a jumping beam. >> This is not as kludgey as it sounds. > > CK1414 is a typical tube: > > http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_ck1414.html Ooooh, sure would like to play with one of those. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From classiccmp at crash.com Thu Jul 14 19:00:45 2011 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 17:00:45 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 on an S-100 Card Message-ID: <4E1F832D.2070003@crash.com> There was a thread here or on the N8VEM-S100 list about putting different vintage CPUs on a newly designed S-100 boards. I happen to be cleaning up my office and came across something done back in the day worth noting on that theme... In the May 1984 issue of Microsystems, /The Journal for Advanced Microcomputing/ (Vol 5, Num 5), there is a directory of S-100 products. ABACUS Technology Systems, Inc is among the vendors listed, and on page 67 they have a 1/4 page ad for their PC11 product - right next to a similar ad for the Lattice C compiler. This board features a T11 with 32KW of RAM, and runs RT-11 v5.0 with compatible I/O devices emulated somehow by a CP/M program (presumably running on an 808x/Z80 card in the same chassis). Here's the full text of the ad: ========================= PC11 Gives You DEC RT-11 on S-100 [B/W picture of board] o PDP-11 Compatible Instruction Set o Includes RT-11 Version 5.0 Operating System o IEEE-696 S-100 Bus, 8 Consecutive I/O Ports, Switch Selectable o 64K Bytes of Memory on the PC11 Board o Uses 8 Inch Disks Compatible with DEC RX01 and RX02 Drives o CP/M Interface Program Emulates Standard DEC I/O Devices o Supported Devices: Console, Printer, Dual Single Density 8 Inch Floppy Disk Drives o Other Devices May Be Supported By Custom Programming CP/M is a Trademark of Digital Research Corporation PDP-11 and RT-11 are Trademarks of Digital Equipment Corporation ABACUS Technology Systems, Inc. P.O. Box 740918 Houston, Texas 77274-0918 or call (713) 777 - 0401 ========================= So, anybody have one of these boards? Or did anybody on the list use one back in the day and care to comment on the experience? --Steve. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jul 14 19:20:13 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 17:20:13 -0700 Subject: Decmate I / VT278 questions In-Reply-To: <4E1F7897.6030505@neurotica.com> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <4E1DA193.16884.13198BA@cclist.sydex.com> <4E1DF2EA.10883.26F5434@cclist.sydex.com> <4E1F7897.6030505@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Speaking of VT-100s: Received a Decmate I / VT278 recently (PDP8 micro in VT100 cabinet), sans keyboard and disk drives. I don't really expect to hang on to it, but I'm a little curious to assess it some. Major chips on the processor board: 6120 40-pin socketed PDP8 micro 2* 6121 40-pin socketed PIO 2* 6402 40-pin soldered UART SND 5027 D 40-pin socketed ? (disk controller?) 6* 4-chip RAM modules 23-014G2-00 / M3-6322-9 18-pin socketed ROM presumed 23-015G2-00 / M3-6322-9 18-pin socketed ROM presumed 23-016G2-00 / M3-6322-9 18-pin socketed ROM presumed 23-228E2 / P8316E-37122 24-pin socketed ROM presumed 23088E2 / C68026 DEC 24-pin soldered ROM presumed (character gen?) Board production date: May 19 1983 I suppose a keyboard may not be too difficult for someone to obtain, the disk drives I expect will be less likely; or can anyone comment on what it will take to make this a half-way-useable PDP8 system? I suppose one of the 6402s drives the printer port, what does the other do? The COMM-ports board that sits beside the processor board is missing. Any problem with blowing ROMs to turn the printer port into a boot/download port? When powered on the PWR-OK & CPU-OK LEDs light up and the CRT filament lights up, but there is no sign of any raster. Kind of looks more like the monitor is dead (no trace of beam when powered down for example). I take it (due to absence of physical controls) brightness and contrast are software controlled (I didn't remember VT100 class stuff being like that). Anybody happen to know whether a bare Decmate like this (no keyboard, no disk drives) should display anything on-screen upon power-up? From vrs at msn.com Thu Jul 14 20:19:54 2011 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 18:19:54 -0700 Subject: Decmate I / VT278 questions In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <4E1DA193.16884.13198BA@cclist.sydex.com> <4E1DF2EA.10883.26F5434@cclist.sydex.com> <4E1F7897.6030505@neurotica.com> Message-ID: From: "Brent Hilpert": Thursday, July 14, 2011 5:20 PM > Speaking of VT-100s: > > Received a Decmate I / VT278 recently (PDP8 micro in VT100 cabinet), > sans keyboard and disk drives. I don't really expect to hang on to it, > but I'm a little curious to assess it some. > I suppose a keyboard may not be too difficult for someone to obtain, > the disk drives I expect will be less likely; or can anyone comment on > what it will take to make this a half-way-useable PDP8 system? I think you are looking basically for a VT-100 style keyboard, though the authentic one would have the "Gold" key in the upper left of the keypad. As for "disk drives", the standard thing is a pair of RX01 floppy drives, interfaced with a slightly different cable. To be completely authentic they should be in a tower that is holding the VT278 up at desk height :-). I expect that RX02 with the internal switch set for RX01-only mode should also work fine. RX02 were used on a lot of PDP-11 systems, and so aren't too difficult to find. > I suppose one of the 6402s drives the printer port, what does the other > do? The COMM-ports board that sits beside the processor board is > missing. Any problem with blowing ROMs to turn the printer port into a > boot/download port? Have a look at the drawings at pdf/dec/pdp8/cmos8/ on your favorite bitsavers.org mirror. >From what I can see on MP00900_VT278_may81.pdf 40/74, it looks like E46 is the COMM-port and E45 is dedicated to a serial intefrace to the keyboard. > When powered on the PWR-OK & CPU-OK LEDs light up and the CRT filament > lights up, but there is no sign of any raster. Kind of looks more like > the monitor is dead (no trace of beam when powered down for example). I > take it (due to absence of physical controls) brightness and contrast > are software controlled (I didn't remember VT100 class stuff being like > that). Anybody happen to know whether a bare Decmate like this (no > keyboard, no disk drives) should display anything on-screen upon > power-up? I'd have to look into that. The DM II and DM III display an error code on the screen, but I don't know offhand about the older VT-278. Vince From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jul 14 20:24:38 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 18:24:38 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 on an S-100 Card In-Reply-To: <4E1F832D.2070003@crash.com> References: <4E1F832D.2070003@crash.com> Message-ID: Never seen one, or heard of one, but it sounds like an interestingly frightening system! It would definitely be interesting to hear more. Zane At 5:00 PM -0700 7/14/11, Steven M Jones wrote: >There was a thread here or on the N8VEM-S100 list about putting >different vintage CPUs on a newly designed S-100 boards. I happen to be >cleaning up my office and came across something done back in the day >worth noting on that theme... > >In the May 1984 issue of Microsystems, /The Journal for Advanced >Microcomputing/ (Vol 5, Num 5), there is a directory of S-100 products. >ABACUS Technology Systems, Inc is among the vendors listed, and on page >67 they have a 1/4 page ad for their PC11 product - right next to a >similar ad for the Lattice C compiler. This board features a T11 with >32KW of RAM, and runs RT-11 v5.0 with compatible I/O devices emulated >somehow by a CP/M program (presumably running on an 808x/Z80 card in the >same chassis). > >Here's the full text of the ad: > >========================= > >PC11 Gives You DEC RT-11 on S-100 > > [B/W picture of board] > >o PDP-11 Compatible Instruction Set >o Includes RT-11 Version 5.0 Operating System >o IEEE-696 S-100 Bus, 8 Consecutive I/O Ports, Switch Selectable >o 64K Bytes of Memory on the PC11 Board >o Uses 8 Inch Disks Compatible with DEC RX01 and RX02 Drives >o CP/M Interface Program Emulates Standard DEC I/O Devices >o Supported Devices: Console, Printer, Dual Single Density 8 Inch > Floppy Disk Drives >o Other Devices May Be Supported By Custom Programming > > CP/M is a Trademark of Digital Research Corporation > PDP-11 and RT-11 are Trademarks of Digital Equipment Corporation > >ABACUS Technology Systems, Inc. > P.O. Box 740918 > Houston, Texas 77274-0918 > or call (713) 777 - 0401 > >========================= > >So, anybody have one of these boards? Or did anybody on the list use one >back in the day and care to comment on the experience? > >--Steve. -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu Jul 14 22:38:07 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 04:38:07 +0100 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <4E1F0382.6040305@gmail.com> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <5AA8DA37D24241F8A72DB2C034BA242D@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4E1D7BF7.9000905@hachti.de> <4E1DE364.5090700@gmail.com> <4E1F0382.6040305@gmail.com> Message-ID: If there are any unwanted DEC Terminals in the UK working or not I'd be happy to haul them away Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson Sent: 14 July 2011 15:56 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: VT fixums Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I still regret giving >> mine away, and will hopefully find another one sometime! :-) > > A year or two back, I had several VT220s available in > dirty-but-confirmed-working shape from an auto dealer's parts counter, > and I couldn't generate any interest. These were at FreeGeek > Columbus, so when they didn't sell intact, they were scrapped out. > > They aren't easy to ship, and they certainly aren't light, but it > seems unless they are purchased in person, there's not so much demand. I think that's the problem; a person would have to be *really* enthusiastic about them to justify the shipping costs, when they could spend that same amount in shipping something far more interesting. Local pick-ups are a lot easier to justify, but I've not heard of there ever being any DEC equipment in use in this area (local government around here seems to have been on AS/400 in the past, and we're so sparsely-populated up here that prior to that it wouldn't surprise me if they weren't on dial-up to remote sites for their number-crunching needs) cheers Jules From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 23:18:29 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 23:18:29 -0500 Subject: Decmate I / VT278 questions In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <4E1DA193.16884.13198BA@cclist.sydex.com> <4E1DF2EA.10883.26F5434@cclist.sydex.com> <4E1F7897.6030505@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: "Brent Hilpert": Thursday, July 14, 2011 5:20 PM >> Received a Decmate I / VT278 recently (PDP8 micro in VT100 cabinet), sans >> keyboard and disk drives... > >> I suppose a keyboard may not be too difficult for someone to obtain, the >> disk drives I expect will be less likely; or can anyone comment on what it >> will take to make this a half-way-useable PDP8 system? > > I think you are looking basically for a VT-100 style keyboard, though the > authentic one would have the "Gold" key in the upper left of the keypad. Yep. No electrical or logical difference, but using WPS with a WPS keyboard is easier than using a keymap on paper. > As for "disk drives", the standard thing is a pair of RX01 floppy > drives, interfaced with a slightly different cable. The VT78 came with RX01s. The VT278 came with RX02s. Same cable for all "desktop" 8" drives... DC37-to-DB25 for one drive pair, DC37-Y-to-two-DB25 for two pairs. Inside the pedestal is a small board that has a DB25 facing the outside world, and a "normal" Berg 40-pin cable to go to the drive controller. It's the same board that's in the skinned MINC floppy case, too (same DB25 external pinout). >?To be completely > authentic they should be in a tower that is holding the VT278 up at desk > height :-). I have a pedestal - it has one RX02 set (same guts as a rack-mount RX02, but mounted differently) and room for another. > I expect that RX02 with the internal switch set for RX01-only mode should > also work fine. Yes. >?RX02 were used on a lot of PDP-11 systems, and so aren't > too difficult to find. They did make a lot of them. >> I suppose one of the 6402s drives the printer port, what does the other >> do? The COMM-ports board that sits beside the processor board is missing. >> Any problem with blowing ROMs to turn the printer port into a boot/download >> port? > > Have a look at the drawings at ? ?pdf/dec/pdp8/cmos8/ > on your favorite bitsavers.org mirror. > >> From what I can see on MP00900_VT278_may81.pdf 40/74, it looks like > > E46 is the COMM-port and E45 is dedicated to a serial intefrace to the > keyboard. Without checking the printset, I was going to say one 6402 UART drives the printer, the other drives the console terminal. >> When powered on the PWR-OK & CPU-OK LEDs light up and the CRT filament >> lights up, but there is no sign of any raster. Kind of looks more like the >> monitor is dead... > > I'd have to look into that. ?The DM II and DM III display an error code on > the screen, but I don't know offhand about the older VT-278. I don't recall either, and my DM-I is in another place, so I can't check. -ethan From jonas at otter.se Thu Jul 14 06:14:28 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 13:14:28 +0200 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay Message-ID: <4E1ECF94.3020602@otter.se> > Watch "The Italian Job" (The REAL original, not the American remake that > uses the MAXI-cooper). The original "Italian Job" had a lot of England's > best actors, and the most fantastic stunt driving footage of any movie. > To get back closer to topic: the movie has a theme of extreme UK V Italy > nationalism, with a group of Brits tampering with the traffic control > computers to pull off a robbery. Now *that* was a *brilliant* movie. Benny Hill as the mad computer scientist... I have managed to see it once only :-( the American remake has been on TV several times, not worth watching if you've seen the real one. Like a BMW-"Mini" versus the real Mini... /Jonas From jonas at otter.se Thu Jul 14 06:21:14 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 13:21:14 +0200 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay Message-ID: <4E1ED12A.8080002@otter.se> >>The "real" car is called the Cooper Mini. The "fake" car is called the >> Mini Cooper.:) (I_think_) > Is it? I am sure we had a car over here called a 'Mini Cooper' that was > based on the original Mini. > > -tony Mini Cooper was derived from the original Mini by John Cooper and Alec Issigonis and first appeared in 1961. The BMW Mini also exists in a Mini Cooper version, tuned by John Cooper's company, now owned by BMW. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini_Cooper http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Cooper_Works /Jonas From jonas at otter.se Thu Jul 14 06:32:32 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 13:32:32 +0200 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay Message-ID: <4E1ED3D0.6010805@otter.se> > I know the feeling. If I ever learn to drive, I want a DS (an original > oen, not the modern cars that share the name but don't even have > hydraulic suspsension :-(). > > -tony My motorcycle mechanic has at least 3 DSes, 2 XMs and a Xantia, and a garage filled with spare parts. At least one of the DSes and one of the XMs runs. I drove a DS once, on a gravel road full of potholes in the south-west of France. Absolutely amazing, it just floated along, one hardly felt the potholes... OTOH on another holiday in France we were overtaken by one with a whole family in it. A little while later there had been an accident, the DS that had passed us had collided with a lorry. It had been literally flattened, it looked like it had been squashed with a rolling-pin. Very tragic :-( It would have been nice if they were still made, but with more crash-proof bodywork. /Jonas From derschjo at msu.edu Thu Jul 14 14:25:48 2011 From: derschjo at msu.edu (derschjo at msu.edu) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 15:25:48 -0400 Subject: Available (not mine): Symbolics 3650 In-Reply-To: References: <4E1ED7B8.4000300@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20110714152548.71154ggxx440bovw@mail.msu.edu> Quoting Jason T : > On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 6:49 AM, Pontus wrote: >> Hi >> >> I don't normally post links like this, but this machine deserves a good >> home: >> >> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/zip/2493135053.html > > Gut-wrenching to see a machine like that dumped on the curb. If > anyone gets it, let us know what you find inside :) > > -- > jht > Yes, someone needs to rescue this. Such a cool machine. I only wish I was in the area. If someone local wants to pick it up and hold onto it on my behalf for a few weeks... :) - Josh From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 18:35:47 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 16:35:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Multitech MPF-PC In-Reply-To: <4E1CDF33.5916.3164D13@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1310686547.57094.YahooMailClassic@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> all this talk of DIOS and stuff is making me loopy. are you sure it wasn't just a disk based BIOS? Does the firmware contain just enough code to get it booted up? what is so peculiar about the h/w of this thing that it has all these special needs? Again is the f/w stripped down, bare bones? From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Jul 15 01:00:38 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 23:00:38 -0700 Subject: Decmate I / VT278 questions In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <4E1DA193.16884.13198BA@cclist.sydex.com> <4E1DF2EA.10883.26F5434@cclist.sydex.com> <4E1F7897.6030505@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the responses, the schematic from bitsavers is great. Looks like some of the ROMs are special or proprietary devices, might be a hassle to substitute. I think I remember seeing the disk drive cabinet go out some years ago. Still, looks like someone enthused about it could hack it into a functioning PDP-8. Is there enough of a ROM monitor to modify memory? If so, one might fake the keyboard with a hacked serial connection from another computer and download through the faked keyboard. I think I'll put it on the bench to check out the monitor. On 2011 Jul 14, at 6:19 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: "Brent Hilpert": Thursday, July 14, 2011 5:20 PM >> Speaking of VT-100s: >> Received a Decmate I / VT278 recently (PDP8 micro in VT100 cabinet), >> sans keyboard and disk drives. I don't really expect to hang on to >> it, but I'm a little curious to assess it some. > >> I suppose a keyboard may not be too difficult for someone to obtain, >> the disk drives I expect will be less likely; or can anyone comment >> on what it will take to make this a half-way-useable PDP8 system? > > I think you are looking basically for a VT-100 style keyboard, though > the authentic one would have the "Gold" key in the upper left of the > keypad. > > As for "disk drives", the standard thing is a pair of RX01 floppy > drives, interfaced with a slightly different cable. To be completely > authentic they should be in a tower that is holding the VT278 up at > desk height :-). > > I expect that RX02 with the internal switch set for RX01-only mode > should also work fine. RX02 were used on a lot of PDP-11 systems, and > so aren't too difficult to find. > >> I suppose one of the 6402s drives the printer port, what does the >> other do? The COMM-ports board that sits beside the processor board >> is missing. Any problem with blowing ROMs to turn the printer port >> into a boot/download port? > > Have a look at the drawings at pdf/dec/pdp8/cmos8/ > on your favorite bitsavers.org mirror. > >> From what I can see on MP00900_VT278_may81.pdf 40/74, it looks like > E46 is the COMM-port and E45 is dedicated to a serial intefrace to the > keyboard. > >> When powered on the PWR-OK & CPU-OK LEDs light up and the CRT >> filament lights up, but there is no sign of any raster. Kind of looks >> more like the monitor is dead (no trace of beam when powered down for >> example). I take it (due to absence of physical controls) brightness >> and contrast are software controlled (I didn't remember VT100 class >> stuff being like that). Anybody happen to know whether a bare Decmate >> like this (no keyboard, no disk drives) should display anything >> on-screen upon power-up? > > I'd have to look into that. The DM II and DM III display an error > code on the screen, but I don't know offhand about the older VT-278. > > Vince From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Fri Jul 15 01:01:55 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 07:01:55 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 on an S-100 Card In-Reply-To: <4E1F832D.2070003@crash.com> References: <4E1F832D.2070003@crash.com> Message-ID: <9E5E9A7BF9884107A581995CEA7227B9@RODSDEVSYSTEM> Oh Wow!! How cute is that? Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Steven M Jones Sent: 15 July 2011 01:01 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: PDP-11 on an S-100 Card There was a thread here or on the N8VEM-S100 list about putting different vintage CPUs on a newly designed S-100 boards. I happen to be cleaning up my office and came across something done back in the day worth noting on that theme... In the May 1984 issue of Microsystems, /The Journal for Advanced Microcomputing/ (Vol 5, Num 5), there is a directory of S-100 products. ABACUS Technology Systems, Inc is among the vendors listed, and on page 67 they have a 1/4 page ad for their PC11 product - right next to a similar ad for the Lattice C compiler. This board features a T11 with 32KW of RAM, and runs RT-11 v5.0 with compatible I/O devices emulated somehow by a CP/M program (presumably running on an 808x/Z80 card in the same chassis). Here's the full text of the ad: ========================= PC11 Gives You DEC RT-11 on S-100 [B/W picture of board] o PDP-11 Compatible Instruction Set o Includes RT-11 Version 5.0 Operating System o IEEE-696 S-100 Bus, 8 Consecutive I/O Ports, Switch Selectable o 64K Bytes of Memory on the PC11 Board o Uses 8 Inch Disks Compatible with DEC RX01 and RX02 Drives o CP/M Interface Program Emulates Standard DEC I/O Devices o Supported Devices: Console, Printer, Dual Single Density 8 Inch Floppy Disk Drives o Other Devices May Be Supported By Custom Programming CP/M is a Trademark of Digital Research Corporation PDP-11 and RT-11 are Trademarks of Digital Equipment Corporation ABACUS Technology Systems, Inc. P.O. Box 740918 Houston, Texas 77274-0918 or call (713) 777 - 0401 ========================= So, anybody have one of these boards? Or did anybody on the list use one back in the day and care to comment on the experience? --Steve. From tosteve at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 04:18:09 2011 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 02:18:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: My first ASR-33 TTY Message-ID: <1310721489.56001.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I just picked-up an ASR-33 today - it looks pretty good. Supposedly low hours. I need to replace the rubber for the print head - it has turned hard and is cracking. Is there anything else I need to do before I even turn it on and press a key? Thanks! Steven Stengel From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Jul 15 08:11:55 2011 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 09:11:55 -0400 Subject: My first ASR-33 TTY In-Reply-To: <1310721489.56001.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1310721489.56001.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <023401cc42f0$c613ea80$523bbf80$@sudbrink@verizon.net> steven Stengel wrote: > I just picked-up an ASR-33 today - it looks pretty good. Supposedly low > hours. > > I need to replace the rubber for the print head - it has turned hard > and is cracking. > > Is there anything else I need to do before I even turn it on and press > a key? Well, as a card carrying member of the "trust no one" club, I would recommend removing the cover (accomplished by removing the screws back and front (under the name plate if you have one) and don't forget the screw on the side of the paper tape reader). Give it a good visual inspection. Make sure the h-plate is correctly in position. Finally, hand turn the motor through several cycles. If it turns smoothly with no grinding or other obvious signs of malfunction, then you're probably good to power it up. Bill From billdeg at degnanco.com Fri Jul 15 10:46:57 2011 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 11:46:57 -0400 Subject: My first ASR-33 TTY Message-ID: <438c5631$4cea188b$59819cfd$@com> > > Message: 24 > Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 02:18:09 -0700 (PDT) > From: steven stengel > Subject: My first ASR-33 TTY > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > <1310721489.56001.YahooMailClassic at web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > I just picked-up an ASR-33 today - it looks pretty good. Supposedly low hours. > > I need to replace the rubber for the print head - it has turned hard and is cracking. > > Is there anything else I need to do before I even turn it on and press a key? > > Thanks! > Steven Stengel > > Here is a URL with useful information... download the power point presentation on evaluating and setting up an ASR 33 from the VCF E 7.0 Teletype workshop. http://vintagecomputer.net/vcf7/Teletype101/ Bill From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Jul 15 10:53:07 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 10:53:07 -0500 Subject: My first ASR-33 TTY In-Reply-To: <438c5631$4cea188b$59819cfd$@com> References: <438c5631$4cea188b$59819cfd$@com> Message-ID: umm hows one view power point if they don't got microsoft bull crap On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 10:46 AM, B. Degnan wrote: > > > > Message: 24 > > Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 02:18:09 -0700 (PDT) > > From: steven stengel > > Subject: My first ASR-33 TTY > > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > > Message-ID: > > <1310721489.56001.YahooMailClassic at web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > I just picked-up an ASR-33 today - it looks pretty good. Supposedly low > hours. > > > > I need to replace the rubber for the print head - it has turned hard and > is cracking. > > > > Is there anything else I need to do before I even turn it on and press a > key? > > > > Thanks! > > Steven Stengel > > > > > > Here is a URL with useful information... download the power point > presentation on evaluating and setting up an ASR 33 from the VCF E 7.0 > Teletype workshop. > > http://vintagecomputer.net/vcf7/Teletype101/ > > Bill > > From ragooman at gmail.com Fri Jul 15 10:59:21 2011 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 11:59:21 -0400 Subject: My first ASR-33 TTY In-Reply-To: References: <438c5631$4cea188b$59819cfd$@com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 11:53 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > umm hows one view power point if they don't got microsoft bull crap > > ummm, OpenOffice & LibreOffice is compatible From shumaker at att.net Fri Jul 15 11:58:40 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 09:58:40 -0700 Subject: My first ASR-33 TTY In-Reply-To: References: <438c5631$4cea188b$59819cfd$@com> Message-ID: <4E2071C0.7030902@att.net> use openoffice from openoffice.org On 7/15/2011 8:53 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > umm hows one view power point if they don't got microsoft bull crap > > On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 10:46 AM, B. Degnan wrote: > > >>> Message: 24 >>> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 02:18:09 -0700 (PDT) >>> From: steven stengel >>> Subject: My first ASR-33 TTY >>> To: cctech at classiccmp.org >>> Message-ID: >>> <1310721489.56001.YahooMailClassic at web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>> >>> I just picked-up an ASR-33 today - it looks pretty good. Supposedly low >>> >> hours. >> >>> I need to replace the rubber for the print head - it has turned hard and >>> >> is cracking. >> >>> Is there anything else I need to do before I even turn it on and press a >>> >> key? >> >>> Thanks! >>> Steven Stengel >>> >>> >>> >> Here is a URL with useful information... download the power point >> presentation on evaluating and setting up an ASR 33 from the VCF E 7.0 >> Teletype workshop. >> >> http://vintagecomputer.net/vcf7/Teletype101/ >> >> Bill >> >> >> > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Jul 15 12:11:17 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 18:11:17 +0100 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <5AA8DA37D24241F8A72DB2C034BA242D@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4E1D7BF7.9000905@hachti.de> <4E1DE364.5090700@gmail.com> <4E1F0382.6040305@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001501cc4312$3724e960$a56ebc20$@ntlworld.com> Similarly, if anyone in the UK has a VT100 or VT125 (or an ASR-33) which is surplus to requirements I would love to get hold of it as I don't have any of these. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod Smallwood > Sent: 15 July 2011 04:38 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only' > Subject: RE: VT fixums > > If there are any unwanted DEC Terminals in the UK working or not I'd be > happy to haul them away > > > Regards > > Rod Smallwood > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech- > bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Jules Richardson > Sent: 14 July 2011 15:56 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: VT fixums > > Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> I still regret giving > >> mine away, and will hopefully find another one sometime! :-) > > > > A year or two back, I had several VT220s available in > > dirty-but-confirmed-working shape from an auto dealer's parts counter, > > and I couldn't generate any interest. These were at FreeGeek > > Columbus, so when they didn't sell intact, they were scrapped out. > > > > They aren't easy to ship, and they certainly aren't light, but it > > seems unless they are purchased in person, there's not so much demand. > > I think that's the problem; a person would have to be *really* enthusiastic > about them to justify the shipping costs, when they could spend that same > amount in shipping something far more interesting. > > Local pick-ups are a lot easier to justify, but I've not heard of there ever being > any DEC equipment in use in this area (local government around here seems > to have been on AS/400 in the past, and we're so sparsely-populated up here > that prior to that it wouldn't surprise me if they weren't on dial-up to remote > sites for their number-crunching needs) > > cheers > > Jules From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Jul 15 14:06:17 2011 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 15:06:17 -0400 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4E1DFE3A.5030107@neurotica.com> References: <4E1DFE3A.5030107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201107151506.17595.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 13 July 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 07/13/2011 02:54 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Heh! I'll bet the look was something else. If by Mini you mean > > > > I had some explaining to do, put it that way... > > > >> Mini-Cooper, those seem to have become fairly popular in the USA > >> in the > > > > The Mini Coopr is, IIRC, a version of the same car with somewhat > > better performance. > > > > Note that I am talking about the origianl Mini, not the modern > > horror from BMW... > > Just FYI, that modern horror from BMW is a damn fine automobile. > I've had the pleasure of driving several. I've only driven the one that I owned for 5 years ('05 BMW Mini Cooper S), but I'd have to agree. I ended up getting rid of it, because I wanted a car that could fit more than two adults in it. That said, with the rear seats folded down, there was a fair amount of cargo space. Many classic machines were transported that way... Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From bdwheele at indiana.edu Fri Jul 15 14:27:14 2011 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 15:27:14 -0400 Subject: Terminal server advice Message-ID: <1310758034.2307.22.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Hey all! I'm planning to upgrade my home network at some point in the not-too-distant future and I'm trying to figure out what to do with my serial-terminal-console machines. Right now I'm using a decserver 200/mc to connect to them, but its always been a little fragile: It doesn't seem that most switches understand MOP (so it won't boot) and requiring a lat client leaves a lot to be desired. The connected serial terminal works great but parts of me are wanting to move to something that takes up less space and is more tcp/ip friendly. What is everyone else doing for this? Just a back of the envelope count looks like there are around 8 serial-consoled machines. I've thought about using usb-to-serial adapters but that seemed kind of hacky. The machines are a mix of OSes, and some of them are Suns, so the break/disconnect signal is always...amusing. If I can ditch the mop requirement I should be able to get rid of my aging (and noisy) hub and move everything to switches (since I don't use decnet either) Anyone have any suggestions? If I can get a reasonable solution I'll probably get rid of the pair of ds200's I have (one with skins and the other without). Brian From drb at msu.edu Fri Jul 15 14:59:26 2011 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 15:59:26 -0400 Subject: Terminal server advice In-Reply-To: (Your message of Fri, 15 Jul 2011 15:27:14 EDT.) <1310758034.2307.22.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> References: <1310758034.2307.22.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <20110715195926.EDFDEA580C6@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > What is everyone else doing for this? Just a back of the envelope count > looks like there are around 8 serial-consoled machines. I've thought > about using usb-to-serial adapters but that seemed kind of hacky. There are some 8-port usb-serial boxes around, e.g. Edgeport stuff. That would reduce the hack factor a bit. You could also hunt up an old RocketPort or similar multiport serial card. Both of these options require running a PC. For a unix, there's a package called conserver that is basically a software terminal server. It holds scrollback when you're not looking at a channel, helps you flip between ports, etc, and would go nicely with either of the above hardware options. Or you might consider an Annex (nearly any model would work), Chase IOlan or Portmaster brand hardware terminal server used that can self-boot. De From nick.allen at comcast.net Fri Jul 15 11:28:11 2011 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 11:28:11 -0500 Subject: Anyone have a CDP1861 for sale/trade?? Message-ID: <4E206A9B.7070802@comcast.net> Looking for a CDP1861 IC for the display on my elf computer, anyone out there willing to sell/trade? From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Jul 15 15:26:37 2011 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 16:26:37 -0400 Subject: Terminal server advice In-Reply-To: <20110715195926.EDFDEA580C6@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <1310758034.2307.22.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <20110715195926.EDFDEA580C6@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <201107151626.37736.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 15 July 2011, Dennis Boone wrote: > Or you might consider an Annex (nearly any model would work), Chase > IOlan or Portmaster brand hardware terminal server used that can > self-boot. I'm a fan of Xyplex MaxServer 1600/1620/1640s. They're about $20 on ebay, boot off of TFTP, and connect with 10BaseT when you use the appropriate AUI converter (built-in on the 1620/1640). I have instructions etc on how to get them set up if you go that route. The only limitation is that they only go up to 38,400bps I believe, and don't support encrypted protocols, but for $20 they're pretty decent. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Fri Jul 15 15:51:46 2011 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 21:51:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Terminal server advice In-Reply-To: <20110715195926.EDFDEA580C6@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <1310758034.2307.22.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <20110715195926.EDFDEA580C6@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Jul 2011, Dennis Boone wrote: > > What is everyone else doing for this? Just a back of the envelope count > > looks like there are around 8 serial-consoled machines. I've thought > > about using usb-to-serial adapters but that seemed kind of hacky. DECserver 90M. Connection to the network is via standard Cat5. Eight serial ports, capable of 57k baud, multi-session, built in flash RAM for O/S, inbuilt internet configuration, LAT capable, reverse LAT for console port serving, the list is endless. Serial connections to the server are via RJ45 connections, so it is very easy to make up cables, for example RJ45 to 9 pin DIN, 25 pin DIN or MMJ. The power supply is usually the hardest item to get officially, many don't come with one because they were installed in a multi-node backplane. However, all that is required is a mini 5 pin DIN connector and standard 5 volt 2 amp power supply. I can provide the required PIN out. If it came to it I'd be happy to supply a converter from a 2.5mm power plug. I recently acquired a couple on eBay for approx. $20 each. Worth every penny. Highly recommended. This message comes to you from a VT520 connected to a DECserver 90M, via another DECserver 90M (serving a console to a linux box). Regards, Mark. From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jul 15 16:05:26 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 14:05:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Terminal server advice In-Reply-To: <20110715195926.EDFDEA580C6@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <1310758034.2307.22.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <20110715195926.EDFDEA580C6@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Jul 2011, Dennis Boone wrote: > > What is everyone else doing for this? Just a back of the envelope count > > looks like there are around 8 serial-consoled machines. I've thought > > about using usb-to-serial adapters but that seemed kind of hacky. > > Or you might consider an Annex (nearly any model would work), Chase > IOlan or Portmaster brand hardware terminal server used that can > self-boot. > Livingston Portmasters are going for around $50 on eBay right now. They're nice little terminal servers and handle RADIUS too. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Jul 15 16:10:52 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 23:10:52 +0200 Subject: Terminal server advice In-Reply-To: <1310758034.2307.22.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> References: <1310758034.2307.22.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <20110715231052.517a0be7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 15 Jul 2011 15:27:14 -0400 Brian Wheeler wrote: > What is everyone else doing for this? I use an old 8-port terminal server that supports TCP/IP out of its own EPROMs. It can be configured for "reverse telnet". I.e. you $ telnet octopus 2003 and get a connection to port #3 of the terminal server. It even understands a telnet-break command and turns it into a serial break. I think most of the later DEC terminal servers can do this as well. At least some variants of the DECserver 700 and 90. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 15 15:04:07 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 21:04:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <01O3LY20EUXE0036LH@beyondthepale.ie> from "Peter Coghlan" at Jul 13, 11 07:37:16 pm Message-ID: > > > > >For all of its faults it was still the market leader. > > > >Did you know you could plug a B&W TV camera into the back of a VT100 and see > >the picture on the screen? I did it at Dec Park (Reading UK) one day and > >drew a large crowd. > > > > I can remember the tiny on/off switch and the vertical DB25 connector but that It's not that tiny an on/off switch. It's a farily large toggle switch, but it's mounted on the PSU bracket so that only the tip of the toggle lever (if I called it a 'dolly', which is the term I learnt, you'd wodner what the heck I was talking about) protrudes from the case. > is all I recall about the back of a VT100. I guess there must have been a BNC > connector? I do vaguely recall occasionally having to dissuade academic staff There was of course also the mains input connector (IEC type, fuse and votlage selector.A 3 contact jack socket (phone socket, like a hedphone connector) for the keyboard. And 2 BNCs. One was video output, and carried the composite video signal equivalent to that shown on the built-in CRT. The frame rate was selectable as 50 ot 60Hz in the setup. The other was video input. This was just video (not composite video and sync), you had to sync the extranl video source to the sync signal appearing on the video output socket. This means displaying live TV, etc was next-to-imposible. > from plugging their thinwire ethernet segment into the back of their terminal but > I don't remember which type. I suppose it was probably the VT100. MAybe a VT220, whcih ahd a (composite) video output BNC socket on the back. No video input on that one, though. I remember when I was at Bristol we had a thinwire segment go down. After checking for sillies, I put a 'scope on it and found the unmistakable composite video signal. Yes, sombody had plugged a spare T-piece into the back of a VT220. > > Did the terminal automatically sense an external video connection or was it > necessary to manually disable the video generated internally? I guess it was > probably expecting 525 lines, 60Hz but could cope with 625 lines, 50Hz? > > My VT220 has a BNC connector on the back but in this case it is an output. It > produces a nice picture on a monochrome 625 line 50Hz monitor after adjusting > the vertical hold. I thought hte VT220 had a setup option for 50 or 60Hz vertical too. If so, in the former setting, it should display fien on a 625 line monitor without any adjustments. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 15 15:14:10 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 21:14:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Disc for "The SCSI Bus and IDE Interface" (Schmidt) In-Reply-To: <4E1E066B.5010906@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jul 13, 11 09:56:11 pm Message-ID: > > On 13/07/11 21:42, Steven Hirsch wrote: > >> You are not going to beleive this :-(. I have the book with the disk in > >> the back, I've just opened the disk envelope for the first ever time. And > >> the disk has read errors :-( > > > > Hey, might be a good testcase for DiscFerret! > > If only I had the disc! :) Do you want me to lend it to you? It's not a lot of use to me at the moment. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 15 15:16:41 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 21:16:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Disc for "The SCSI Bus and IDE Interface" (Schmidt) In-Reply-To: from "arcarlini@iee.org" at Jul 13, 11 09:59:58 pm Message-ID: > > >>> Hi guys, > >>>=20 > >>> Does anyone have a copy of the floppy disc (or possibly CD) which > >>> accompanies the Second Edition of "The SCSI Bus and IDE Interface" > >>> by Friedhelm Schmidt? > >>=20 > >> You are not going to beleive this :-(. I have the book with the disk > >> in the back, I've just opened the disk envelope for the first ever > >> time. And the disk has read errors :-( > >=20 > > Hey, might be a good testcase for DiscFerret! > > I have the book and I'm sure I bought it new so I should have the CD, > but my > CD wallet at the back is empty. If it ever turns up I'll post here (I'll > have > forgotten who asked by then :-)). > > OTOH if someone does have the CD and can image it to an ISO, I'd > appreciate a > pointer too. At least forthe edition I have (2nd), it's a '1.44M'[1] 3.5" floppy disk, not a CD-ROM. And I suspect the files would fit on something considerably smaller than that. [1] YEs, I realise this is nonsense, but you know what I mean, right? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 15 15:18:18 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 21:18:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Jul 13, 11 06:18:53 pm Message-ID: > > > > I know the feeling. If I ever learn to drive, I want a DS (an original > > oen, not the modern cars that share the name but don't even have > > hydraulic suspsension :-(). > > the new ones has the hydraulic suspension Does it? I am not talking abotu later versions of the original DS (things like the DS23), but rather the currenly-prodcue thigns like the DS4, which look to be Touotas at heart :-( Do they really have hydraulic suspension? I've never seen that claimed anywhre else. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 15 15:23:46 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 21:23:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4E1E1443.3050903@jetnet.ab.ca> from "ben" at Jul 13, 11 03:55:15 pm Message-ID: > > On 7/13/2011 3:44 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > Although completely separated from the engine, the original Honda Civics > > used 10W40 engine oil in their manual transmissions. (a carryover from > > their motorcycle (including N/Z600s) heritage?) > > Can I subsitute WD40 instead? What you do to your own car is you business, and you can pour WD40 into the engine if you want. But don't come to me to get it sorted out when the bearings get wrecked after a few seconds of running. 'You cna try it if you like but you'd far better not-a' -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 15 15:21:23 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 21:21:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20110713144046.J37366@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jul 13, 11 02:44:03 pm Message-ID: > > On Wed, 13 Jul 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > > There was actually an English car called a 'Maxi' too. It was somewhat > > similar mechancially to the Mini, but larger. > > Hmmm. compared in size to the BMW? About the same, I think > > Odd feature.. The engine and transmission (wether manual or automatic) > > use the _same_ oil. I am told the automatic was none-too-reliable, but > > geting it to work at all using engine oil as the hydraulic fluid was an > > achievement. > > Interesting. > I've never been in an automatic Mini. Was there enough spare power? Not really :-). I've never travelled in one, but a teacher at school had one that I fixed for him at one point (he was a physcis teacher, and couldn't understand some simple bits of th electrics of his Mini. Go figure). I now have the full offical workshop manual for the original Mini (actually the Australian manual, but that's just the English manaul with some bits added). It does cover the automatic transmission in detail -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 15 15:26:10 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 21:26:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4E1E14F5.9030701@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jul 13, 11 10:58:13 pm Message-ID: > > On 13/07/2011 21:38, Tony Duell wrote: > > > There was actually an English car called a 'Maxi' too. It was somewhat > > similar mechancially to the Mini, but larger. > > Similar in a few respects (same manufacturer, transverse engine, similar > front-wheel transmission arrangement) but actually the Maxi was based on That;'s why I said 'simialr mechanically'. > the Austin/Morris 1100, which is a bit bigger than a Mini and a rather > different shape and a very different interior layout. The Maxi was > bigger still - though nevertheless something any American would call a > "small car". Interestingly the Morris 1300 (essentially an 1100 with a larger engine) had air conditioning available as an option. This was unheard-of in the UK at the time (certainly on small cars), and I asusme it was only fitted to export models. No idea if any of them got to the States -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 15 15:38:42 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 21:38:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4E1E2F95.2030805@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jul 14, 11 00:51:49 am Message-ID: > One of my friends had one for a while... IMHO it's an "OK" car, but with > one big 'why the fsck did they do that?': putting the damn speedometer > dead centre between the front driver and passenger seats. That was aparody of the styling of the original Mini, of course. The first Minis had one central instruemnt, which was a speedometer with a little fuel guage at the bottom (in the unusepad part of the sepedometer scale). Various warning lights also appeared in the middle of the dial. Some later minis had the '3 dial' cluster. This kept the speedomter/fuel guage as, but added a smaller (stnadard accesory instrument size, about 2" in daimeter) instrument on each side. IIRC was was a water temperatur gauge, the othre an oil pressure gauge. The BMW 'Mini' has a large central speedometer, and IIRC air distribution thingies (for the heater) on either side, in rogutly the positions of the other 2 instruemtns on an older Mini. > Sorry, but I want all the important gauges in one place WHERE I CAN SEE > THEM, not half-way across the blasted car! The thing that annyes me a lot more than that is that on moder cars all sorts of parameters are monitored by the electornci engine (and trasmission) management cotnrollers, but you can't display them on any dashboars instrument. My father's modern Skoda certainly monitors inlet vacuum, air temperature, engine oil temperature, transmisison oil temperatuir, various speeds, and so on. You can read this stuff out over th CAN bus with the disgnostic tester, but you can't have it on the dashboard. ARGH! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 15 16:07:48 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 22:07:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: My first ASR-33 TTY In-Reply-To: <1310721489.56001.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> from "steven stengel" at Jul 15, 11 02:18:09 am Message-ID: > > I just picked-up an ASR-33 today - it looks pretty good. Supposedly low hours. > > I need to replace the rubber for the print head - it has turned hard > and is cracking. > > Is there anything else I need to do before I even turn it on and press a key? Yes ! At the very least : Give the machine a full visual inspaeciton Look at the lubrication manaul and go over _all_ the oiling points. Seriously. The lubricant may wel have dried out and you do not want to wreck the bearrings Turn it over by hand and check it turns without jamming. Then, and only then, power up the motor. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 15 15:43:40 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 21:43:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: from "Rod Smallwood" at Jul 14, 11 06:43:52 am Message-ID: > > Nasty thing that printer - It had a sharp serrated tear off bar and = > loads of > people got cut by it. If I remember rightly it had a helically wound = > wire on > a cylinder running against a bar on the other side of the paper. It was = > said > it worked in the same way as the WWII German Hellschreiber fax system. IT's certianly similar in concept to Hell. It's an electrolytic process, and one of the electrodes is replacable (you get a new one with each roll of paper). I am not sure if it's metla deposited on the paper or a chemical change in something that the paper is soaked in that causes the image to appear. The spinning helix (one of the electrodes) and the moving paper effectively give you a scanning spot ove the paper and my applying a high-ish voltage (I think around 70-V) betwen the elctrodes you get a dot at that point. Or at least that's what's supposed to happen. Mine gous throug hte motions and feds out the paper, but it's totally blank. The HV ispresent, I'e tried another paper roll, etc. And yes, I did mosten the pad inside the printer. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 15 15:55:26 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 21:55:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <1310657010.33708.YahooMailClassic@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Mr Ian Primus" at Jul 14, 11 08:23:30 am Message-ID: > I have a Bunker Ramo terminal. The picture it produces is very fuzzy though: > > http://imgur.com/LkYNz.jpg I've tried 'cat myfile > /dev/tty1' but I didn't get that result :-) You know, I';ve got plenty of terminals that don't have mice. This must be the only one that actualyl elimnates mice. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 15 15:59:33 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 21:59:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jul 14, 11 04:53:40 pm Message-ID: > The IBM approach was to have one big box do all the thinking for all > the terminals, with the terminals being not much more than TVs with > keyboards (2848/2260) - I suppose with one brain doing all the work, > you could save a bunch of expensive circuitry. I think ICL did something like this (possibly a little later, 1970s?). I've seen ICL 'terminals' where the interface was the keyboard signals (parallel TTL levels I think) and composite video. The 'terminal' case jsut cotnained a composite video monitor. -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jul 15 16:27:02 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 14:27:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Jul 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > Not really :-). I've never travelled in one, but a teacher at school had > one that I fixed for him at one point (he was a physcis teacher, and > couldn't understand some simple bits of th electrics of his Mini. Go > figure). > You've just underlined the critical difference between a Theoretical Physicist and a Practicing Physicist. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jul 15 16:38:10 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 17:38:10 -0400 Subject: Terminal server advice In-Reply-To: <1310758034.2307.22.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> References: <1310758034.2307.22.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <4E20B342.2050607@neurotica.com> On 07/15/2011 03:27 PM, Brian Wheeler wrote: > I'm planning to upgrade my home network at some point in the > not-too-distant future and I'm trying to figure out what to do with my > serial-terminal-console machines. Right now I'm using a decserver > 200/mc to connect to them, but its always been a little fragile: It > doesn't seem that most switches understand MOP (so it won't boot) and > requiring a lat client leaves a lot to be desired. The connected serial > terminal works great but parts of me are wanting to move to something > that takes up less space and is more tcp/ip friendly. > > What is everyone else doing for this? Just a back of the envelope count > looks like there are around 8 serial-consoled machines. I've thought > about using usb-to-serial adapters but that seemed kind of hacky. > > The machines are a mix of OSes, and some of them are Suns, so the > break/disconnect signal is always...amusing. If I can ditch the mop > requirement I should be able to get rid of my aging (and noisy) hub and > move everything to switches (since I don't use decnet either) > > Anyone have any suggestions? I suggest a Cisco 2509 or 2511. I've used these as console servers for ages with excellent results. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jul 15 16:58:20 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 17:58:20 -0400 Subject: My first ASR-33 TTY In-Reply-To: <1310721489.56001.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1310721489.56001.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E20B7FC.10005@neurotica.com> On 07/15/2011 05:18 AM, steven stengel wrote: > I just picked-up an ASR-33 today - it looks pretty good. Supposedly low hours. Congrats! > I need to replace the rubber for the print head - it has turned hard and is cracking. A great trick that I learned at the (awesome) ASR-33 workshop at VCF-E is to replace the striker with a piece of vinyl tubing. You can get it at pretty much any hardware store. Use 7/8"L, 7/16"ID, 5/16"OD vinyl tubing. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jul 15 17:27:40 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 16:27:40 -0600 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E20BEDC.3030900@jetnet.ab.ca> On 7/15/2011 3:27 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Fri, 15 Jul 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Not really :-). I've never travelled in one, but a teacher at school had >> one that I fixed for him at one point (he was a physcis teacher, and >> couldn't understand some simple bits of th electrics of his Mini. Go >> figure). >> > You've just underlined the critical difference between a Theoretical > Physicist and a Practicing Physicist. :) > > g. > Where does a Paid Physicist fit in the picture? From terry at webweavers.co.nz Fri Jul 15 17:46:44 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 10:46:44 +1200 Subject: Socket issue in Commodore PETS References: Message-ID: <8C79A893BAAB48018D7080D61713A131@massey.ac.nz> Hi guys, You may (or may not) be interested in some issues I've had with my Commodore PET. It's certainly educated me about the vunerablility of old sockets. http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-07-13-pet-fixes-part-1.htm http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-07-13-pet-fixes-part-2.htm Cheers Terry (Tez) From doc at vaxen.net Fri Jul 15 17:55:35 2011 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 17:55:35 -0500 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4E20BEDC.3030900@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4E20BEDC.3030900@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4E20C567.8030805@vaxen.net> On 7/15/11 5:27 PM, ben wrote: > On 7/15/2011 3:27 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> On Fri, 15 Jul 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>> Not really :-). I've never travelled in one, but a teacher at school had >>> one that I fixed for him at one point (he was a physcis teacher, and >>> couldn't understand some simple bits of th electrics of his Mini. Go >>> figure). >>> >> You've just underlined the critical difference between a Theoretical >> Physicist and a Practicing Physicist. :) >> >> g. >> > > Where does a Paid Physicist fit in the picture? > Usually in the Housekeeping Department. Doc From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jul 15 17:56:48 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 15:56:48 -0700 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4E1E14F5.9030701@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Message-ID: > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > > > > > On 13/07/2011 21:38, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > There was actually an English car called a 'Maxi' too. It was somewhat > > > similar mechancially to the Mini, but larger. > > > > Similar in a few respects (same manufacturer, transverse engine, similar > > front-wheel transmission arrangement) but actually the Maxi was based on > > That;'s why I said 'simialr mechanically'. > > > the Austin/Morris 1100, which is a bit bigger than a Mini and a rather > > different shape and a very different interior layout. The Maxi was > > bigger still - though nevertheless something any American would call a > > "small car". > > Interestingly the Morris 1300 (essentially an 1100 with a larger engine) > had air conditioning available as an option. This was unheard-of in the > UK at the time (certainly on small cars), and I asusme it was only fitted to > export models. No idea if any of them got to the States > > -tony Transmission and engine sharing the same oil. Bad idea! Dwight From bdwheele at indiana.edu Fri Jul 15 18:39:21 2011 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 19:39:21 -0400 Subject: Terminal server advice In-Reply-To: <20110715231052.517a0be7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <1310758034.2307.22.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <20110715231052.517a0be7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <1310773166.7466.3.camel@bender> On Fri, 2011-07-15 at 23:10 +0200, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Fri, 15 Jul 2011 15:27:14 -0400 > Brian Wheeler wrote: > > > What is everyone else doing for this? > I use an old 8-port terminal server that supports TCP/IP out of its own > EPROMs. It can be configured for "reverse telnet". I.e. you > $ telnet octopus 2003 > and get a connection to port #3 of the terminal server. It even > understands a telnet-break command and turns it into a serial break. > I think most of the later DEC terminal servers can do this as well. > At least some variants of the DECserver 700 and 90. We had a western telematic console server that did that. I really hate that I didn't grab it before it was sent to surplus :( I bought a xyplex 1800 from the vcf midwest a few years ago (when it was at purdue) that I was going to use to replace the ds200 but alas, it has a bad power supply and shocked the bejeezus out of me when I touched the top of one of the capacitors to see if it was hot...I guess it was hot in a way different from what I was expecting :) From lynchaj at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 18:40:23 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 16:40:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-11 on an S-100 Card Message-ID: <1310773223.78767.YahooMailClassic@web180204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> PDP-11 on an S-100 Card Steven M Jones classiccmp at crash.com Thu Jul 14 19:00:45 CDT 2011 Previous message: Seeking Morrow MPZ80 rev3a PALs Next message: PDP-11 on an S-100 Card Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] There was a thread here or on the N8VEM-S100 list about putting different vintage CPUs on a newly designed S-100 boards. I happen to be cleaning up my office and came across something done back in the day worth noting on that theme... In the May 1984 issue of Microsystems, /The Journal for Advanced Microcomputing/ (Vol 5, Num 5), there is a directory of S-100 products. ABACUS Technology Systems, Inc is among the vendors listed, and on page 67 they have a 1/4 page ad for their PC11 product - right next to a similar ad for the Lattice C compiler. This board features a T11 with 32KW of RAM, and runs RT-11 v5.0 with compatible I/O devices emulated somehow by a CP/M program (presumably running on an 808x/Z80 card in the same chassis). Here's the full text of the ad: [snip] -----REPLY----- Hi! It was on CCTALK mailing list the S-100 PDP-11 was discussed a few weeks ago by the people here. My offer to build a board still stands but it will take some effort of someone(s) who can design the schematic and write the software for whatever free/open source software is necessary. As I recall, the project fizzled since the obstacles to overcome were simply too enormous. That's a shame however if someone gets ambitious and wants to take this on please let me know since I'll volunteer to make the PCB, get some prototypes, etc. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Jul 15 19:13:41 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 01:13:41 +0100 Subject: Terminal server advice In-Reply-To: <20110715195926.EDFDEA580C6@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <1310758034.2307.22.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <20110715195926.EDFDEA580C6@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4E20D7B5.5090700@dunnington.plus.com> On 15/07/2011 20:59, Dennis Boone wrote: > On 15/07/2011 20:27, Brian Wheeler wrote: > > What is everyone else doing for this? Just a back of the envelope count > > looks like there are around 8 serial-consoled machines. I've thought > > about using usb-to-serial adapters but that seemed kind of hacky. > Or you might consider an Annex (nearly any model would work), Chase > IOlan or Portmaster brand hardware terminal server used that can > self-boot. I use a Xylogics Annex 2000. A little more tricky to set up than some, becasue it has lots of options, but it's worthwhile. It can handle modems (outgoing or incoming) as well as terminals, and it understands SLIP and PPP. You can "telnet annex" and get to a command prompt, from where you can select a line or a named service; lines can be grouped into "rotaries" (for banks of modems, for example, round-robin fashion). You can also assign TCP ports to lines so you can "telnet annex 2005" (which in my case would connect me to a PDP-11/23). Of course you can use authentication on any of the lines and have different rules for different lines, and it comes with software to work as a modem server, so you can make a UNIX or Linux box handle the modem(s) as if they were directly connected. MOP and LAT were optional; mine doesn't have the licence keys. I also have a Racal Interlan but it's much less versatile so I hardly ever use it. Actually, there are lots of terminal servers that would do the job (ie as reverse servers): Livingston, Racal, Emulex, DEC all made them. Thinking of serial devices, does anyone want a Telebit Netblazer? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jul 15 19:18:03 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 17:18:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4E20BEDC.3030900@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4E20BEDC.3030900@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Jul 2011, ben wrote: > On 7/15/2011 3:27 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> On Fri, 15 Jul 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>> Not really :-). I've never travelled in one, but a teacher at school had >>> one that I fixed for him at one point (he was a physcis teacher, and >>> couldn't understand some simple bits of th electrics of his Mini. Go >>> figure). >>> >> You've just underlined the critical difference between a Theoretical >> Physicist and a Practicing Physicist. :) >> >> g. >> > > Where does a Paid Physicist fit in the picture? > I think those are Nuclear Physicists. Playing the Bongo drums would be a good side line though. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Jul 15 20:13:25 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 22:13:25 -0300 Subject: Socket issue in Commodore PETS References: <8C79A893BAAB48018D7080D61713A131@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: <6BC5ED5171744888989CB725CA6BC648@portajara> > You may (or may not) be interested in some issues I've had with my > Commodore PET. It's certainly educated me about the vunerablility of old > sockets. It may sounds crazy, but when I have something rare as a PET and want to keep it WORKING for a long time, I usually change **all** sockets and put sockets on socketless ICs. Of course, with proper dessoldering tool :) From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Jul 16 02:49:00 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 00:49:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dataman chip writers and Linux Message-ID: I just got an email back from Dataman Ltd about my inquiry of the possibility of using a Linux machine to drive their chip writers. What I got back was a statement that in ten years, less than ten people have ever asked about Linux or Mac support. Surely there are more people than just me who'd want to use these things under Linux. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Jul 16 09:46:17 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 10:46:17 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 on an S-100 Card In-Reply-To: <1310773223.78767.YahooMailClassic@web180204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1310773223.78767.YahooMailClassic@web180204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E21A439.6020307@verizon.net> > In the May 1984 issue of Microsystems, /The Journal for Advanced > Microcomputing/ (Vol 5, Num 5), there is a directory of S-100 products. > ABACUS Technology Systems, Inc is among the vendors listed, and on page > 67 they have a 1/4 page ad for their PC11 product - right next to a > similar ad for the Lattice C compiler. This board features a T11 with > 32KW of RAM, and runs RT-11 v5.0 with compatible I/O devices emulated > somehow by a CP/M program (presumably running on an 808x/Z80 card in the > same chassis). > > Here's the full text of the ad: > [snip] > > > > -----REPLY----- > > Hi! It was on CCTALK mailing list the S-100 PDP-11 was discussed a few weeks ago by the people here. > > My offer to build a board still stands but it will take some effort of someone(s) who can design the schematic and write the software for whatever free/open source software is necessary. > > As I recall, the project fizzled since the obstacles to overcome were simply too enormous. That's a shame however if someone gets ambitious and wants to take this on please let me know since I'll volunteer to make the PCB, get some prototypes, etc. > > Thanks and have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch > Putting a PDP11 on a S100 card using T11 is easy. Its a T11 32KW (32kx16) of ram,small rom 1k for monitor), and minimally two serial ports that are DL compatable and demuxing the bus for the IO page to put on the s100 bus. There is no need to memory access on s100 as 32KW is the max memory for that cpu without creating a copy of the KT11 MMU. The only reason to put IO on the bus is for peripherals but interrupts on S100 are not handled in a way that is compatible with T11 (T11 when an interrupt request comes in expects a 8bit vector on the low data bus as a pointer to interrupt handlers similar to Z80 mode 2 but very different timing). The problem is the mass storage driver has to be created for at least RT11OS. Porting CUBIX (6809 source) may be possible as the PDP11 and 6809 are similar. To do any OS work a PDP11 (real or SIM) is needed. Of course the easy way to do that is get a DEC falcon card (SBC11) and a Memory card and you have that and more. Same for the F11 capu or J11. Board for Qbus exist, Qbus systems are small and interesting in their own right and S100 IO is very foreign compared to DEC standard hardware. They only "build it" that would make any sense if any is putting a T11 on a single board with max ram, some rom (monitor), DL compatable IO (basically UARTs) and a CF. That would run RT11 if someone could create the disk driver and loading it for the first time is covered by using a serial line and TU58(block addressable tape) simulator or the real thing is on hand. without the disk driver if the serial is truely DL compatable then the board could run RT11 out of the box with the DD driver (tu58 tape or an emulator of that). IT is possible to do a MT11 MMU with T11, it's a bit of hardware and has to be interconnected to the interrupt system as the MMU also implements memory protection via exceptions(interrupts). With that larger software is "possible" but it's a lot of hardware and the T11(a minimum PDP11) is not a expanded/full PDP11 with I&D spaces or floating point. if you do not understand the difference then find and read the DEC Microcomputer Processor Handbook" as it answers most if not all the questions. The only DEC OS most know is RT11 which is like CP/M. The fancier OSs like RSTS and RSX (timesheare and multitasking) are out of reach of the T11 due to memory/MMU. IF you want those OSs get a SIM, Qbus box you will get to working but with more effort is you have never worked with DEC systems/hardware. Also RT11 is the only one available (wink/nod) for strict hobbiest use. If one wanted to go the fully home brewed OS route I'd suggest CP/M as a pattern (CPM 68K is in C and can be compiled for PDP11), maybe a uClinux port but it will have to add virtualization via swapping (remember 32KW memory). Summary is I'm both DEC and S100 and putting PDP11 on S100 is a poor idea. S100 works for CPUs based off 8080 but with increasing overhead for bending their control signals to meet IEEE696. For a lot of micros it is a hard mismatch and the conventions of 8080/8085/z80 world makes S100 generally odd to most other CPUs. For example 6502, 6800, 6809, T-11 and others ALL depending on memory mapped IO, something generally uncommon on s100. I've built up a T11 SBC and with out a disk driver (on my long round toit list) its fairly useless save for an SBC. Compared to my small Qbus system with 11/23+ CPU, 1MB ram 4 serial ports, RQDX3 floppy/hard disk and a Ethernet NIC, the T11 SBC is a toy on the scale of the 8085 or 6100 sampler SBCs. The difference is the real PDP11 runs serious OSs (RT11, RSTS, RSX and unixV6) and can do even by current standards real work(spreadsheets, languages, editors, compilers and assemblers). So the PDP11 on S100.. don't. Allison From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Jul 16 09:56:59 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 07:56:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [TRS-80] Reviews of TRS-80 and compatible computers in magazines of the 1970s & 80s (fwd) Message-ID: [This showed up on the TRS-80 list that I'm on. I figured many of you here would enjoy it. -g.] ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 09:01:17 -0000 From: Rainer Reply-To: TRS-80 at yahoogroups.com To: TRS-80 at yahoogroups.com Subject: [TRS-80] Reviews of TRS-80 and compatible computers in magazines of the 1970s & 80s For some TRS-80 fans it may be interesting to have a view on the editor's judgements from the earlier times when these computers were displayed in computer shop's display windows for sale. The technical details of the reviewed computers are more precise and meaningful than the shorthand technical specifications found on modern computer museum internet sites. Some of the reviews are more well disposed and other less. Because of the different views of the various editors the reader can make himself a pretty good overview about the desired computer model. Since some of the reviews are difficult to obtain nowadays I think it might be useful to make them available in this manner. Beside the elder TRS-80 computer enthusiasts (I'm 51 years old) which are familiar with most of the TRS-80 models since the late 1970s there may be younger ones who could be supported in their decision to obtain a specific model. The containing information of the reviews might bring some light in the beginner's lack of knowlegde of the different types of TRS-80 and compatible computers. BTW, are there any younger TRS-80 users among us (born after ~1980) or do the group members consist only of survivers of the former 8-bit times? The reviews are taken almost all from independent magazines like Byte or 80micro and similar printed publications. The pages from the magazine 'Microcomputer News' should more seen like an introduction and advertisment than real reviews because this magazine was published by Radio Shack. Nevertheless I have added for completeness a few of the overviews from this magazine too. Some of the models have more reviews than others. That's because my access is limited to only a small fraction of all ever printed issues of the various computer magazines. For example: the Model III which is represented only by one review is accidently the least recognized computer in this collection despite the fact that this model is one of the most spread ones. Does someone have another review of the Model III? I've collected all the reviews found in magazines that I have (had) personally on paper or that are (were) accessible in digitized formats (PDF, JPG or plain text) on the internet. Regardless of the original data format all the reviews are now in PDF. Featured Tandy Radio Shack computers: - TRS-80 Model I - TRS-80 Model II - TRS-80 Model III - TRS-80 Model 4 - TRS-80 Model 4P - TRS-80 Model 12 - TRS-80 Model 16 - TRS-80 Model 16B - TRS-80 DT-1 - TRS-80 Color Computer Featured TRS-80 compatible computers: - PMC-80 - Dick Smith System 80 - Video Genie - Lobo Max-80 - LNW80 - Trommelschlaeger TCS GENIE IIIS - Trommelschlaeger Speedmaster The examined magazines (nearly all in English language exept the mentioned German magazines): - 80micro - Byte - 80-US - Microcomputer News - Creative Computing - Infoworld - Micro-80 - CHIP (German language) - c't (German language) - Computer Persoenlich (German language) The reviews of the specific models are integrated to sets of PDF files and packed in RAR archive files. To unpack the desired file you can use the program Winrar for example. Other packing programs like Winzip may work as well. For more information look at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAR_(file_format) The sets are named: TRS-80_Model_I_Reviews_(Version_YYYY-MM-DD).rar TRS-80_Model_II-12_Reviews_(Version_YYYY-MM-DD).rar TRS-80_Model_III_Reviews_(Version_YYYY-MM-DD).rar TRS-80_Model_4_Reviews_(Version_YYYY-MM-DD).rar TRS-80_Model_16_and_Terminal_DT-1_(Version_YYYY-MM-DD).rar TRS-80_Compatibles_Reviews_(Version_YYYY-MM-DD).rar Color_Computer_Reviews_(Version_YYYY-MM-DD).rar Additionally for the interested party that like to have all reviews a RAR file is available that includes the whole collection: Tandy_Radio_Shack_and_Compatible_Computers_Reviews_(whole_collection)_(Version_YYYY-MM-DD).rar A set's version date (Version_YYYY-MM-DD) is updated every time a new review is added to the set. The first version date of all sets is 2011-07-12. Coming updates will be published here. Each archive file is stored on two different file hosting services for downloading. You can choose your preferred file hoster. The files are usually deleted by the services after a period of 30-60 days without a download. Please let me know if a file isn't accessible anymore. See below for the download links. Have fun with reading. Additional contributions of reviews and any comments are welcome. Best Regards, Rainer Germany The archive files and their contents: --> TRS-80_Model_I_Reviews_(Version_2011-07-12).rar Filesize: 5.32MB Download links: http://www.share-online.biz/dl/8O8IKBOLCFQ http://www.fileserve.com/file/8rFWE4n Contents: TRS-80 Model I Byte 1977-11, page 46 TRS-80 Model I Byte 1978-04, page 49 --- German --- TRS-80 Model I CHIP 1979-07 ========================== --> TRS-80_Model_II-12_Reviews_(Version_2011-07-12).rar Filesize: 4.05MB Download links: http://www.share-online.biz/dl/61F7LBOLRH http://www.fileserve.com/file/KjpdT5M Contents: TRS-80 Model II vs. IBM PC 5150 80micro 1982-03, page 168 TRS-80 Model 12 80micro 1983-05, page 133 TRS-80 Model 12 InfoWorld 1983-08-22, page 50 --- German --- TRS-80 Model 12 Computer Persoenlich 1983-09 ========================== --> TRS-80_Model_III_Reviews_(Version_2011-07-12).rar Filesize: 0.95MB Download links: http://www.share-online.biz/dl/CHHALBOLA9 http://www.fileserve.com/file/n2ZXKk6 Contents: TRS-80 Model III Micro-80 1981-02 (Issue 15), page 2 ========================== --> TRS-80_Model_4_Reviews_(Version_2011-07-12).rar Filesize: 6.62MB Download links: http://www.share-online.biz/dl/1NZOLBOLPL http://www.fileserve.com/file/XnKhcbQ Contents: TRS-80 Model 4 80-US 1983-06 (Vol. 6 - Issue 6), page 14 TRS-80 Model 4 Micro-80 1984-01 (Vol. 4 - Issue 06), page 10 TRS-80 Model 4 Microcomputer News 1983-05, page 17 TRS-80 Model 4 Byte 1983-10, page 292 TRS-80 Model 4D 80micro 1986-02, page 29 TRS-80 Model 4P 80micro 1984-03, page 42 ========================== --> TRS-80_Model_16_and_Terminal_DT-1_(Version_2011-07-12).rar Filesize: 4.67MB Download links: http://www.share-online.biz/dl/3K3ZLBOLX5T http://www.fileserve.com/file/EZG2e4B Contents: TRS-80 Model 16 Microcomputer News 1982-03, page 32 TRS-80 Model 16 80-US 1982-08, page 39 TRS-80 Model 16 80micro 1982-09, page 16 - Model 16's Future 80micro 1982-09, page 300 - Whither DOS for the Model 16? TRS-80 Model 16 80micro 1983-02, page 228 TRS-80 Model 16B Microcomputer News 1983-10, page 11 TRS-80 DT-1 80-US 1982-08, page 54 ========================== --> TRS-80_Compatibles_Reviews_(Version_2011-07-12).rar Filesize: 31.6MB Download links: http://www.share-online.biz/dl/I7VGMBOLZD http://www.fileserve.com/file/QvkTac8 Contents: Dick Smith System 80 Micro-80 1980-06 (Issue 07), page 5 PMC-80, Video Genie, Dick Smith System 80 80micro 1982-01, page 218 PMC-80 InfoWorld 1981-04-13, page 54 Lobo Max-80 80micro 1983-07, page 122 Lobo MAX-80 InfoWorld 1981-01-17, page 53 LNW-80 Byte 1984-05, page 258 LNW-80 Kit 80micro 1982-05, page 206 LNW-80 Kit 80micro 1982-10, page 356 --- German --- Video Genie EG3003 CHIP 1980-11 Genie II EG3008 CHIP 1982-01 Trommelschlaeger TCS GENIE IIIS c't 1985-03, page 100 Trommelschlaeger Speedmaster CHIP 1984-09, page 98 ========================== --> Color_Computer_Reviews_(Version_2011-07-12).rar Filesize: 4.62MB Download links: http://www.share-online.biz/dl/94N82FOL0F http://www.fileserve.com/file/nr7pybg Contents: Color Computer 80micro 1981-01, page 88 Color Computer 80micro 1981-06, page 202 Color Computer 80micro 1981-08, page 286 --- German --- Color Computer 2 c't 1984-05, page 48 ========================== --> Tandy_Radio_Shack_and_Compatible_Computers_Reviews_(whole_collection)_(Version_2011-07-12).rar Filesize: 57.8MB Download links: http://www.share-online.biz/dl/FU5S3FOL2J5 http://www.fileserve.com/file/VfA2cRD Contents: TRS-80 Model I Byte 1977-11, page 46 TRS-80 Model I Byte 1978-04, page 49 --- German --- TRS-80 Model I CHIP 1979-07 -------------------------- TRS-80 Model II vs. IBM PC 5150 80micro 1982-03, page 168 TRS-80 Model 12 80micro 1983-05, page 133 TRS-80 Model 12 InfoWorld 1983-08-22, page 50 --- German --- TRS-80 Model 12 Computer Persoenlich 1983-09 -------------------------- TRS-80 Model III Micro-80 1981-02 (Issue 15), page 2 -------------------------- TRS-80 Model 4 80-US 1983-06 (Vol. 6 - Issue 6), page 14 TRS-80 Model 4 Micro-80 1984-01 (Vol. 4 - Issue 06), page 10 TRS-80 Model 4 Microcomputer News 1983-05, page 17 TRS-80 Model 4 Byte 1983-10, page 292 TRS-80 Model 4D 80micro 1986-02, page 29 TRS-80 Model 4P 80micro 1984-03, page 42 -------------------------- TRS-80 Model 16 Microcomputer News 1982-03, page 32 TRS-80 Model 16 80-US 1982-08, page 39 TRS-80 Model 16 80micro 1982-09, page 16 - Model 16's Future 80micro 1982-09, page 300 - Whither DOS for the Model 16? TRS-80 Model 16 80micro 1983-02, page 228 TRS-80 Model 16B Microcomputer News 1983-10, page 11 TRS-80 DT-1 80-US 1982-08, page 54 -------------------------- Dick Smith System 80 Micro-80 1980-06 (Issue 07), page 5 PMC-80, Video Genie, Dick Smith System 80 80micro 1982-01, page 218 PMC-80 InfoWorld 1981-04-13, page 54 Lobo Max-80 80micro 1983-07, page 122 Lobo MAX-80 InfoWorld 1981-01-17, page 53 LNW-80 Byte 1984-05, page 258 LNW-80 Kit 80micro 1982-05, page 206 LNW-80 Kit 80micro 1982-10, page 356 --- German --- Video Genie EG3003 CHIP 1980-11 Genie II EG3008 CHIP 1982-01 Trommelschlaeger TCS GENIE IIIS c't 1985-03, page 100 Trommelschlaeger Speedmaster CHIP 1984-09, page 98 -------------------------- Color Computer 80micro 1981-01, page 88 Color Computer 80micro 1981-06, page 202 Color Computer 80micro 1981-08, page 286 --- German --- Color Computer 2 c't 1984-05, page 48 ========================== ------------------------------------ Using an emulator? Please join!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TRS-80/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TRS-80/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: TRS-80-digest at yahoogroups.com TRS-80-fullfeatured at yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: TRS-80-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jul 16 09:58:33 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 07:58:33 -0700 Subject: Dataman chip writers and Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E21A719.20703@bitsavers.org> On 7/16/11 12:49 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > What I got back was a statement that in ten years, less than ten > people have ever asked about Linux or Mac support. It's easier just to shrug your shoulders and keep a Windows (or DOS!) box around than try to deal with vendors targeting products for the x86 market, who know that almost all of their sales will go there. It's also easier for them to lock up all of the device protocols selling binary drivers into the Windows market. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 16 11:25:15 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 09:25:15 -0700 Subject: Dataman chip writers and Linux In-Reply-To: <4E21A719.20703@bitsavers.org> References: , <4E21A719.20703@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E2158FB.32298.40DFAA@cclist.sydex.com> On 7/16/11 12:49 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > What I got back was a statement that in ten years, less than ten > people have ever asked about Linux or Mac support. That's odd--most of the EDA toolsets and lately, microcontroller IDEs seem to have Linux as the native environment with Cygwin and the like accommodating Windoze users. Well, there's always Wine, I guess. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jul 16 12:43:40 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 10:43:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dataman chip writers and Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110716104021.A51759@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 16 Jul 2011, David Griffith wrote: > I just got an email back from Dataman Ltd about my inquiry of the > possibility of using a Linux machine to drive their chip writers. What I > got back was a statement that in ten years, less than ten people have ever > asked about Linux or Mac support. Surely there are more people than just > me who'd want to use these things under Linux. I can see that. But, with that kind of response, I'm not sure that I would bother asking them about other platform support. They do what they do, and don't have an obligation to take on additional projects. On the other hand, if they were to offer an extensive API for writing your own alternate programs, they just might end up with code for other platforms. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Jul 16 13:06:28 2011 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 11:06:28 -0700 Subject: SBC-6120 SOLD on eBay... Message-ID: <201107161106.28756.lbickley@bickleywest.com> The "SBC-6120 Full Kit, FP6120, FP Finishing Kit, VT6 Kit" sold yesterday for $1,500.00 on eBay... Lyle -- Lyle Bickley, AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 16 12:43:24 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 18:43:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4E20BEDC.3030900@jetnet.ab.ca> from "ben" at Jul 15, 11 04:27:40 pm Message-ID: > >> Not really :-). I've never travelled in one, but a teacher at school had > >> one that I fixed for him at one point (he was a physcis teacher, and > >> couldn't understand some simple bits of th electrics of his Mini. Go > >> figure). > >> > > You've just underlined the critical difference between a Theoretical > > Physicist and a Practicing Physicist. :) > > > > g. > > > > Where does a Paid Physicist fit in the picture? > As far as I am aware, such things do not exist in the UK :-( -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 16 12:42:15 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 18:42:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: My first ASR-33 TTY In-Reply-To: <4E20B7FC.10005@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jul 15, 11 05:58:20 pm Message-ID: > > A great trick that I learned at the (awesome) ASR-33 workshop at > VCF-E is to replace the striker with a piece of vinyl tubing. You can > get it at pretty much any hardware store. Use 7/8"L, 7/16"ID, 5/16"OD > vinyl tubing. How does that work? The original rubber hammer is a cap that fits over a stud on the metal actuator. You surely don;'t put a collar of tubing around the stud, do you/ If so, what's to stop the end of the stud hitting the type cylidner? Or do you somehat put a piece of the tubing as a slever ovr the complete actuator, puting it on from,the top? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 16 12:58:20 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 18:58:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Socket issue in Commodore PETS In-Reply-To: <6BC5ED5171744888989CB725CA6BC648@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Jul 15, 11 10:13:25 pm Message-ID: > > > You may (or may not) be interested in some issues I've had with my > > Commodore PET. It's certainly educated me about the vunerablility of old > > sockets. > > It may sounds crazy, but when I have something rare as a PET and want to I'm not sure I'd class a PET as rare > keep it WORKING for a long time, I usually change **all** sockets and put > sockets on socketless ICs. Of course, with proper dessoldering tool :) I would certainly replace all the sockets with turned-pin ones, but I don't think I'd desolder ICs just ot put them in sockets. But if I had to replace an IC,I might well socket the repalcemetn (again in a turned-pin socket). As an aside, the Whitechapel MG1 was a bit silly. The expensive chips -- the 32016 procssor, MMU, FPU, etc were all in nice turned=pin sockets. The EPROMs were in very cheap IC sockets. You cna guess the result, problems due to bad contacts at the EPROM sockets were common. I replaced the sockets in mine with turned-pin ones and nevr hand another problem. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 16 12:53:11 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 18:53:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: Socket issue in Commodore PETS In-Reply-To: <8C79A893BAAB48018D7080D61713A131@massey.ac.nz> from "terry stewart" at Jul 16, 11 10:46:44 am Message-ID: > > Hi guys, > > You may (or may not) be interested in some issues I've had with my Commodore > PET. It's certainly educated me about the vunerablility of old sockets. Yes, the sockets used on the PETs were not good quality. I've fixed several PETs by replacing the sockets. I always ues the (expensive) turned-pin ones. I've never had a preoblem with those in anything. -tony From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Jul 16 13:15:48 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 20:15:48 +0200 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110716201548.96948af0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 15 Jul 2011 21:18:18 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > the new ones has the hydraulic suspension > Does it? DS3 and DS4 seem to be souped up C3 and C4 models. The "Hydractive" hydraulic suspension is not available for these models. C5 (optional) and C6 have Hydractive. But Hydractive is not really comparable to the old DS hydraulic suspension as it is heavily microprocessor controled. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Jul 16 13:38:43 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 15:38:43 -0300 Subject: Socket issue in Commodore PETS References: Message-ID: > I'm not sure I'd class a PET as rare In Brazil, they are! I've never seen a PET in person :( From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jul 16 14:17:22 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 15:17:22 -0400 Subject: Socket issue in Commodore PETS In-Reply-To: <8C79A893BAAB48018D7080D61713A131@massey.ac.nz> References: <8C79A893BAAB48018D7080D61713A131@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 6:46 PM, terry stewart wrote: > Hi guys, > > You may (or may not) be interested in some issues I've had with my Commodore > PET. ?It's certainly educated me about the vunerablility of old sockets. > > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-07-13-pet-fixes-part-1.htm > > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-07-13-pet-fixes-part-2.htm I have a 2001N/3032 that we bought semi-new in the late 1970s (an in-warranty return to the dealer). After all these years, the IEEE interface is a bit flaky, and it appears to be the 40-pin sockets for the VLSI I/O chips. I've replaced 2 sockets, 2 to go. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jul 16 14:40:58 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 15:40:58 -0400 Subject: Socket issue in Commodore PETS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6ABEC672-8B5A-4C00-978E-B5BD838B589F@neurotica.com> On Jul 16, 2011, at 2:38 PM, "Alexandre Souza - Listas" wrote: >> I'm not sure I'd class a PET as rare > > In Brazil, they are! I've never seen a PET in person :( They're quite rare here too. Trouble is, a person sees ONE somewhere and takes that to mean they're common. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jul 16 14:48:41 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 15:48:41 -0400 Subject: Dataman chip writers and Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jul 16, 2011, at 3:49 AM, David Griffith wrote: > I just got an email back from Dataman Ltd about my inquiry of the possibility of using a Linux machine to drive their chip writers. What I got back was a statement that in ten years, less than ten people have ever asked about Linux or Mac support. Surely there are more people than just me who'd want to use these things under Linux. That's a load of crap. I say that because I know four people who have asked them about Linux or OS X support...I find it impossible to believe that nearly half of the people who asked just happened to be friends of mine. Sounds like they've got some Windows fanboys over there. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Jul 16 14:59:01 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 12:59:01 -0700 Subject: Decmate I / VT278 questions In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <4E1DA193.16884.13198BA@cclist.sydex.com> <4E1DF2EA.10883.26F5434@cclist.sydex.com> <4E1F7897.6030505@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <6c32481d7c086029acec408e463dacfe@cs.ubc.ca> > On 2011 Jul 14, at 6:19 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >> From: "Brent Hilpert": Thursday, July 14, 2011 5:20 PM >>> When powered on the PWR-OK & CPU-OK LEDs light up and the CRT >>> filament lights up, but there is no sign of any raster. Kind of >>> looks more like the monitor is dead (no trace of beam when powered >>> down for example). I take it (due to absence of physical controls) >>> brightness and contrast are software controlled (I didn't remember >>> VT100 class stuff being like that). Anybody happen to know whether a >>> bare Decmate like this (no keyboard, no disk drives) should display >>> anything on-screen upon power-up? >> >> I'd have to look into that. The DM II and DM III display an error >> code on the screen, but I don't know offhand about the older VT-278. For the record, checked it out with the scope, no activity on the sync or video lines going to the monitor board, and no sync signals coming out of the 5027 CRT controller. While it could be a hardware problem on the processor board, it looks likely the boot process is hanging up before it gets to initialising the CRT controller. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Jul 16 15:02:50 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 13:02:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dataman chip writers and Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Jul 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jul 16, 2011, at 3:49 AM, David Griffith > wrote: > >> I just got an email back from Dataman Ltd about my inquiry of the >> possibility of using a Linux machine to drive their chip writers. >> What I got back was a statement that in ten years, less than ten people >> have ever asked about Linux or Mac support. Surely there are more >> people than just me who'd want to use these things under Linux. > > That's a load of crap. I say that because I know four people who have > asked them about Linux or OS X support...I find it impossible to believe > that nearly half of the people who asked just happened to be friends of > mine. > > Sounds like they've got some Windows fanboys over there. At least he wasn't overtly hostile to Linux. I know someone who talked to MOTU about Linux support for some of their audio equipment and they came out cussing. There's another, maybe MOTU again, who deliberately checked to see if WINE was being used and if so refuse to work. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jul 16 15:06:24 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 16:06:24 -0400 Subject: Socket issue in Commodore PETS In-Reply-To: <6ABEC672-8B5A-4C00-978E-B5BD838B589F@neurotica.com> References: <6ABEC672-8B5A-4C00-978E-B5BD838B589F@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jul 16, 2011, at 2:38 PM, "Alexandre Souza - Listas" wrote: > >>> I'm not sure I'd class a PET as rare >> >> ? In Brazil, they are! I've never seen a PET in person :( > > ?They're quite rare here too. ?Trouble is, a person sees ONE somewhere and takes that to mean they're common. I understand your comment about how perception colors what is "common", but between the ECCC/VCFmw show last year in Chicago and my own house, I've seen at least half a dozen PETs owned by several people in the past twelve months, and corresponded with several more PET owners. Doesn't mean they are "common" where you are (who ever "you" is and wherever "you are" is), but I've seen more PETs in the past 10 years than TRS-80s or Apple IIs of the same vintage (i.e., not a CoCo, not a IIe or IIgs, etc). They were popular in educational environments in the US and the UK before the Apple dumped container-loads of Apple IIes on schools in the late 1980s. If you didn't live around one of these school districts, then it's likely that PETs are not common to you. I purchased several from the local University surplus in one lot in the early 1990s (for $10-$15 each, disk drives and printers extra). Location and timing is everything. Clearly the distribution is not even, but for pre-1980 machines, I'd classify them as "common". Not as common as the C-64, but then nothing else is. -ethan From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Jul 16 15:29:02 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 16:29:02 -0400 Subject: Socket issue in Commodore PETS In-Reply-To: References: <6ABEC672-8B5A-4C00-978E-B5BD838B589F@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E21F48E.40500@verizon.net> On 07/16/2011 04:06 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On Jul 16, 2011, at 2:38 PM, "Alexandre Souza - Listas" wrote: >> >>>> I'm not sure I'd class a PET as rare >>> In Brazil, they are! I've never seen a PET in person :( >> They're quite rare here too. Trouble is, a person sees ONE somewhere and takes that to mean they're common. > I understand your comment about how perception colors what is > "common", but between the ECCC/VCFmw show last year in Chicago and my > own house, I've seen at least half a dozen PETs owned by several > people in the past twelve months, and corresponded with several more > PET owners. > > Doesn't mean they are "common" where you are (who ever "you" is and > wherever "you are" is), but I've seen more PETs in the past 10 years > than TRS-80s or Apple IIs of the same vintage (i.e., not a CoCo, not a > IIe or IIgs, etc). They were popular in educational environments in > the US and the UK before the Apple dumped container-loads of Apple > IIes on schools in the late 1980s. If you didn't live around one of > these school districts, then it's likely that PETs are not common to > you. I purchased several from the local University surplus in one lot > in the early 1990s (for $10-$15 each, disk drives and printers extra). > Location and timing is everything. > Around here DEC gear (I'm 7 mi from Maynard) was common as all the Digits (DEC people) had them. Also being a High tech area many other computers like apple, Tandy, Kaypro, and a others as well. the key elements for finding older gear is: Location Date of introduction near sources close or in cites where the gear appear sooner and likely got dumped cheaper. People with access to gear cheap large number of tech oriented folk with money to spend on it. Storage, when no longer used they got parked in basements, attics, sheds or barns For example this area I had DEC, Data General, Nixdorf, Stratus, Prime, IBM, EMC2, Honeywell, Foxboro and a few others all in commuter distance and people around here worked for them. What that means is finding an HP system is far less likely than a Honeywell and both will be rare compared to a DEC or DG. The rest is just the randomness of humans and their travels. Supposedly only 300 IMSAI IMP48s were made, I have one. Allison > Clearly the distribution is not even, but for pre-1980 machines, I'd > classify them as "common". Not as common as the C-64, but then > nothing else is. > > -ethan > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jul 16 17:05:08 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 18:05:08 -0400 Subject: Dataman chip writers and Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E220B14.6050104@neurotica.com> On 07/16/2011 04:02 PM, David Griffith wrote: >>> I just got an email back from Dataman Ltd about my inquiry of the >>> possibility of using a Linux machine to drive their chip writers. >>> What I got back was a statement that in ten years, less than ten >>> people have ever asked about Linux or Mac support. Surely there are >>> more people than just me who'd want to use these things under Linux. >> >> That's a load of crap. I say that because I know four people who have >> asked them about Linux or OS X support...I find it impossible to >> believe that nearly half of the people who asked just happened to be >> friends of mine. >> >> Sounds like they've got some Windows fanboys over there. > > At least he wasn't overtly hostile to Linux. This is good at least. > I know someone who talked > to MOTU about Linux support for some of their audio equipment and they > came out cussing. There's another, maybe MOTU again, who deliberately > checked to see if WINE was being used and if so refuse to work. Wow. Quite a few fanboys. Fortunately, there are better ways to run Windows apps nowadays than WINE. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jul 16 17:50:20 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 18:50:20 -0400 Subject: My first ASR-33 TTY In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E2215AC.3040907@neurotica.com> On 07/16/2011 01:42 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> A great trick that I learned at the (awesome) ASR-33 workshop at >> VCF-E is to replace the striker with a piece of vinyl tubing. You can >> get it at pretty much any hardware store. Use 7/8"L, 7/16"ID, 5/16"OD >> vinyl tubing. > > How does that work? The original rubber hammer is a cap that fits over a > stud on the metal actuator. You surely don;'t put a collar of tubing > around the stud, do you/ If so, what's to stop the end of the stud > hitting the type cylidner? > > Or do you somehat put a piece of the tubing as a slever ovr the complete > actuator, puting it on from,the top? Yes, this. It works extremely well! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jul 16 19:08:43 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 20:08:43 -0400 Subject: "ben mode" rendering: how? Message-ID: <4E22280B.5060203@neurotica.com> Hey folks. I'm running Peter's pcb+gl_experimental branch, and I'd like to play with the photorealistic rendering that used to be referred to as "ben mode". I thought it was in this code base, and it's pictured on Peter's (excellent) blog. How can I do this? Peter, can you slap me with the big fish of clue? Thanks, -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Jul 16 19:34:39 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 12:34:39 +1200 Subject: Socket issue in Commodore PETS References: Message-ID: <006C9AD015AD404F8C3F282D2AAC26AE@massey.ac.nz> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2011 5:58 AM Subject: Re: Socket issue in Commodore PETS >> > You may (or may not) be interested in some issues I've had with my >> > Commodore PET. It's certainly educated me about the vunerablility of >> > old >> > sockets. > I would certainly replace all the sockets with turned-pin ones, ..... My experience with the PET has made me re-assess the old adage of reseating socketed chips as a first step in trying to get something the doesn't work to work. Cheap old sockets may not take kindly to having something yanked out of them that have been snuggly entrenched for 30+ years. Far from helping to fix a fault, it actually may introduce a new one. I was quite careful when I swapped these chips around but that was enough to cause socket failure on BOTH boards. Terry (Tez) From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Jul 16 19:40:59 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 12:40:59 +1200 Subject: Socket issue in Commodore PETS References: <6ABEC672-8B5A-4C00-978E-B5BD838B589F@neurotica.com> Message-ID: >>> I'm not sure I'd class a PET as rare >> >> In Brazil, they are! I've never seen a PET in person :( > > They're quite rare here too. Trouble is, a person sees ONE somewhere and > takes that to mean they're common. They are rare here in New Zealand but not impossible to find. About the same for any microcomputer made prior to 1981 really. 8080-based machines are REALLY rare (in that I've never seen one or knows anyone who owns one). Terry (Tez) From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jul 16 21:05:34 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 22:05:34 -0400 Subject: "ben mode" rendering: how? In-Reply-To: <4E22280B.5060203@neurotica.com> References: <4E22280B.5060203@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E22436E.2040504@neurotica.com> On 07/16/2011 08:08 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Hey folks. I'm running Peter's pcb+gl_experimental branch, and I'd like > to play with the photorealistic rendering that used to be referred to as > "ben mode". I thought it was in this code base, and it's pictured on > Peter's (excellent) blog. How can I do this? Peter, can you slap me with > the big fish of clue? Duh. Auto-complete bit me. I meant to send this to the geda mailing list. Sorry for the noise. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jul 16 21:29:28 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 20:29:28 -0600 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <4E1DA193.16884.13198BA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara>, , <5134e4e9772f8513ba3bf844a2261d29@cs.ubc.ca> <4E1DA193.16884.13198BA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4E1DA193.16884.13198BA at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > Does anyone collect old TRW or Bunker-Ramo terminals? Its hard to find anything made before the mid 1970s. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jul 16 21:46:30 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 20:46:30 -0600 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <4E1DA193.16884.13198BA@cclist.sydex.com> <4E1DF2EA.10883.26F5434@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > There were competing raster based terminal systems in the 1960s. > [...] > The other approach was to use a tiny monoscope, with the target having > an array of characters that could be raster scanned by a jumping beam. > This is not as kludgey as it sounds. The charactron tube? It was used for the message displays in the SAGE console. You can see the beam shaping mask here: And the tube here: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jul 16 21:49:12 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 20:49:12 -0600 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <5AA8DA37D24241F8A72DB2C034BA242D@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4E1D7BF7.9000905@hachti.de> <4E1DE364.5090700@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article , Ethan Dicks writes: > A year or two back, I had several VT220s available in > dirty-but-confirmed-working shape from an auto dealer's parts counter, > and I couldn't generate any interest. These were at FreeGeek > Columbus, so when they didn't sell intact, they were scrapped out. > > They aren't easy to ship, and they certainly aren't light, but it > seems unless they are purchased in person, there's not so much demand. Aren't easy to ship? The VT220 is not that heavy and easily fits inside a reasonably sized cardboard box. The cumbersome bit is the keyboard. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Sun Jul 17 05:27:33 2011 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 02:27:33 -0800 Subject: SBC-6120 SOLD on eBay... In-Reply-To: <201107161106.28756.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <240380CCF79.00000012n0body.h0me@inbox.com> Some people have *way* too much disposable income . . . . > -----Original Message----- > From: lbickley at bickleywest.com > Sent: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 11:06:28 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: SBC-6120 SOLD on eBay... > > The "SBC-6120 Full Kit, FP6120, FP Finishing Kit, VT6 Kit" sold yesterday > for $1,500.00 on eBay... > > Lyle > -- > Lyle Bickley, AF6WS > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > http://bickleywest.com > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" ____________________________________________________________ Publish your photos in seconds for FREE TRY IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if4 From IanK at vulcan.com Sun Jul 17 12:45:58 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 10:45:58 -0700 Subject: SBC-6120 SOLD on eBay... In-Reply-To: <240380CCF79.00000012n0body.h0me@inbox.com> References: <201107161106.28756.lbickley@bickleywest.com>, <240380CCF79.00000012n0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: Yeah, I wish I was one of them, too.... :-) ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of N0body H0me [n0body.h0me at inbox.com] Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2011 3:27 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: SBC-6120 SOLD on eBay... Some people have *way* too much disposable income . . . . > -----Original Message----- > From: lbickley at bickleywest.com > Sent: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 11:06:28 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: SBC-6120 SOLD on eBay... > > The "SBC-6120 Full Kit, FP6120, FP Finishing Kit, VT6 Kit" sold yesterday > for $1,500.00 on eBay... > > Lyle > -- > Lyle Bickley, AF6WS > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > http://bickleywest.com > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" ____________________________________________________________ Publish your photos in seconds for FREE TRY IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if4 From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jul 17 13:00:24 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 14:00:24 -0400 Subject: SBC-6120 SOLD on eBay... In-Reply-To: <240380CCF79.00000012n0body.h0me@inbox.com> References: <240380CCF79.00000012n0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: <4E232338.3040306@neurotica.com> Yep, I'm jealous too. -Dave On 07/17/2011 06:27 AM, N0body H0me wrote: > Some people have *way* too much disposable income . . . . > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: lbickley at bickleywest.com >> Sent: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 11:06:28 -0700 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: SBC-6120 SOLD on eBay... >> >> The "SBC-6120 Full Kit, FP6120, FP Finishing Kit, VT6 Kit" sold yesterday >> for $1,500.00 on eBay... >> >> Lyle >> -- >> Lyle Bickley, AF6WS >> Bickley Consulting West Inc. >> http://bickleywest.com >> "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" > > ____________________________________________________________ > Publish your photos in seconds for FREE > TRY IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if4 -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Jul 17 13:44:47 2011 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 14:44:47 -0400 Subject: Dataman chip writers and Linux References: Message-ID: > Message: 16 > Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 18:05:08 -0400 > From: Dave McGuire > Subject: Re: Dataman chip writers and Linux > Fortunately, there are better ways to run Windows apps nowadays than > WINE. > -Dave Absolutely! Windows, for example... ;-) m From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Jul 17 13:45:46 2011 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 14:45:46 -0400 Subject: Socket issue in Commodore PETS References: Message-ID: <2E8CD25EFF704EE2AE9F96D678C3D56B@vl420mt> > Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 12:34:39 +1200 > From: "terry stewart" > Subject: Re: Socket issue in Commodore PETS > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tony Duell" > To: > Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2011 5:58 AM > Subject: Re: Socket issue in Commodore PETS > > >> I would certainly replace all the sockets with turned-pin ones, ..... > > My experience with the PET has made me re-assess the old adage of > reseating > socketed chips as a first step in trying to get something the doesn't work > to work. Cheap old sockets may not take kindly to having something yanked > out of them that have been snuggly entrenched for 30+ years. Far from > helping to fix a fault, it actually may introduce a new one. > > I was quite careful when I swapped these chips around but that was enough > to > cause socket failure on BOTH boards. > > Terry (Tez) Along with bad RAM and ROM chips, IC sockets making poor contact is definitely at the top of the list of common PET problems, especially if they've been disturbed; I prefer to slide the chips sideways rather than remove and replace them, if only to avoid the possibility of bent or broken pins. But in my experience with dozens of PETs and AIM65s, some working in extrememely hostile environments, I found that a remarkable product called Stabilant-22 almost totally eliminated contact problems (unless there was actual damage), and virtually eliminated frequent socket-related service calls. I don't recall having to replace a single socket; the only issue with certain socket types is that with a lot of vibration or circuit board flexing the chips sometimes migrate out of their socket. It's expensive but it does work and a little goes a long way. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 17 13:00:27 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 19:00:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Socket issue in Commodore PETS In-Reply-To: <006C9AD015AD404F8C3F282D2AAC26AE@massey.ac.nz> from "terry stewart" at Jul 17, 11 12:34:39 pm Message-ID: > My experience with the PET has made me re-assess the old adage of reseating > socketed chips as a first step in trying to get something the doesn't work > to work. Cheap old sockets may not take kindly to having something yanked > out of them that have been snuggly entrenched for 30+ years. Far from > helping to fix a fault, it actually may introduce a new one. My gut reaction is that if a socket is in a state where you can't pull th IC and replace it without damaging the socket, then the socket is bad anyway. Ift may be making proper contact now, but I'd not want to trust it. So yes, you may have introduced a fauly and had to replace the sockets, but if you hadn't, the sockets may well ahv given trouble a little later on anyway. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jul 17 14:08:10 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 15:08:10 -0400 Subject: Dataman chip writers and Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E23331A.6050001@neurotica.com> On 07/17/2011 02:44 PM, MikeS wrote: >> Fortunately, there are better ways to run Windows apps nowadays than >> WINE. > > Absolutely! Windows, for example... > > ;-) Yes, but then you're...running Windows. I'm not patient enough for that. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Jul 17 15:48:17 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 08:48:17 +1200 Subject: Socket issue in Commodore PETS References: <2E8CD25EFF704EE2AE9F96D678C3D56B@vl420mt> Message-ID: > I found that a remarkable product called > Stabilant-22 almost totally eliminated contact problems I've heard you mention this before and it certainly sounds useful. I'll have to do some digging and see if I can find it or it's equivalent here in New Zealand. What's the active ingredient? Terry (Tez) From jws at jwsss.com Sun Jul 17 16:16:12 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 14:16:12 -0700 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E23511C.3020102@jwsss.com> One of my friends had a card printed up (this is Leon K) which included the title Physicist. He worked for TRW when they made satellites, and was responsible for balancing the spacecraft loads and as such did real physics. If you need to blame someone for orbiting 400# of sand because a payload was not ready, he specified the mass and shape of the load. We hired him to balance a CIE systems CI-300 printer which was vibrating all over the computer room for CI. The desire was not to just make a heavier stand, but to dampen the vibrations so the printer wouldn't dance around. Our design as submitted worked, but in the end they went with heavy stand, and really sticky (rubber) feet on the stand. there probably are people doing the latter in the UK, though they might not know they are practicing physics. Jim On 7/16/2011 10:43 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Where does a Paid Physicist fit in the picture? >> > > As far as I am aware, such things do not exist in the UK:-( From jrr at flippers.com Sat Jul 16 10:26:50 2011 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 08:26:50 -0700 Subject: Wallchart program for Data I/O programmers Message-ID: <4E21ADBA.1040304@flippers.com> Anyone have a copy of the "wallchrt.exe" program from around 1997? Earlier versions apprecaited too. The one claiming to be on the data-io ftp server times out... ftp://ftp.dataio.com/device_lists/_archive/etc/README.html Any copies (PDF) of the Data I/O wallcharts (besides 1986) appreciated as well. Thanks, John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From jrr at flippers.com Sat Jul 16 11:15:19 2011 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 09:15:19 -0700 Subject: Free Stuff(pay shipping or p/u) DC-600A tapes Message-ID: <4E21B917.1020603@flippers.com> I have no idea if these are of use to anyone, but I have three NOS (New Old Stock - sealed) 3M DC 600A Data Cartridges (60Mbytes!) that are free to the first person who wants them - simply pay for the shipping or pick up at my shop in Vancouver, BC, Canada. Weight is 280gm each, and could be shipped Air Small Packet (padded envelope) for $15 to the USA or $35 (Air) or $18 (Surface) to the UK. John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From pinball at telus.net Sat Jul 16 11:30:04 2011 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 09:30:04 -0700 Subject: Free Stuff(pay shipping or p/u) DC-600A tapes Message-ID: <4E21BC8C.3090803@telus.net> I have no idea if these are of use to anyone, but I have three NOS (New Old Stock - sealed) 3M DC 600A Data Cartridges (60Mbytes!) that are free to the first person who wants them - simply pay for the shipping or pick up at my shop in Vancouver, BC, Canada. Weight is 280gm each, and could be shipped Air Small Packet (padded envelope) for $15 to the USA or $35 (Air) or $18 (Surface) to the UK. John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From pinball at telus.net Sat Jul 16 11:30:22 2011 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 09:30:22 -0700 Subject: Wallchart program for Data I/O programmers Message-ID: <4E21BC9E.2040306@telus.net> Anyone have a copy of the "wallchrt.exe" program from around 1997? Earlier versions apprecaited too. The one claiming to be on the data-io ftp server times out... ftp://ftp.dataio.com/device_lists/_archive/etc/README.html Any copies (PDF) of the Data I/O wallcharts (besides 1986) appreciated as well. Thanks, John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Sat Jul 16 13:29:49 2011 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 19:29:49 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 15 Jul 2011 21:04:07 +0100 (BST)" References: <01O3LY20EUXE0036LH@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01O3Q6QHZ1GM003ASL@beyondthepale.ie> > >There was of course also the mains input connector (IEC type, fuse and >votlage selector.A 3 contact jack socket (phone socket, like a hedphone >connector) for the keyboard. And 2 BNCs. > Its been over 15 years since I last saw the back of a VT100 and my feeble memory doesn't recall the details. However, now that you mention it, I do remember the keyboard jack. In the event of getting a working display but no response from the keyboard, standard procedure was to reach behind the terminal and wiggle the keyboard connector until a click was heard from the speaker and then try again. > >One was video output, and carried the composite video signal equivalent >to that shown on the built-in CRT. The frame rate was selectable as 50 >ot 60Hz in the setup. The other was video input. This was just video (not >composite video and sync), you had to sync the extranl video source to >the sync signal appearing on the video output socket. This means >displaying live TV, etc was next-to-imposible. > It never dawned on me that the 50/60Hz selection in setup was for the video output frame rate. I assumed it was supposed to be set to the frequency of the mains supply but I never bothered to figure out exactly what effect it might have or why not having it set correctly didn't seem to make any great difference. If it was marked frame rate or something like that, I would probably have figured it out. > >> from plugging their thinwire ethernet segment into the back of their terminal but >> I don't remember which type. I suppose it was probably the VT100. > >MAybe a VT220, whcih ahd a (composite) video output BNC socket on the >back. No video input on that one, though. I remember when I was at >Bristol we had a thinwire segment go down. After checking for sillies, I >put a 'scope on it and found the unmistakable composite video signal. >Yes, sombody had plugged a spare T-piece into the back of a VT220. > Almost all academic staff who needed a terminal got a VT100 so it was more likely one of those. VT220s were few and far between. > >I thought hte VT220 had a setup option for 50 or 60Hz vertical too. If >so, in the former setting, it should display fien on a 625 line monitor >without any adjustments. > I just had a hunt through setup on my VT220 and I can't find a 50/60Hz option. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From djg at pdp8online.com Sun Jul 17 07:39:30 2011 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 08:39:30 -0400 Subject: Decmate I / VT278 questions Message-ID: <201107171239.p6HCdV4P029282@hugin2.pdp8online.com> > Anybody happen to know whether a bare Decmate like this (no > keyboard, no disk drives) should display anything on-screen upon > power-up? > I just tested mine (has COMM board). It displays nothing on the CRT until the keyboard is pluged in. After that it displays setup. From CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie Sun Jul 17 15:42:36 2011 From: CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 21:42:36 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Alphaserver 1000A power supply shutting down Message-ID: <01O3RJM4Y8BM003BM1@beyondthepale.ie> I have an Alphaserver 1000A which began intermittently halting, same as if the halt switch had been pressed. At the time it had a serial console. I thought it might have been picking up noise on the serial line and interpreting it as a break signal so I changed over to a graphics console. It still halted intermittently. This problem either went away or the following problem caused me to not notice it any more. The machine started intermittently powering itself down, requiring it to be switched off and back on again to reset the power supply before it could be run again. The machine might stay running for several hours or it might power down less than a second after switching on, or anything in between. Thinking that the two problems might be related, I investigated the operator control panel on which are mounted the low voltage on/off switch and the halt switch. I found the two switches to have little in common and my theory to be unlikely to be correct. The on/off switch and associated circuitry appear to be working correctly, as does the interlock which cuts power when the lid is removed. I tried a power supply unit from another Alphaserver 1000A and found this did not cure the problem so I replaced the original. Thinking that the power supply might be sensing an overload, I disconnected the power feeds to the disks/cd/floppy and removed all the PCI cards. The problem was still there. When it was failing regularly, I found a line going to the power supply which normally sat at 0V and pulsed high just as the power supply shut down. This line did not pulse the same way when the power was turned off normally. I suspect it is a signal from the system board to the power supply requesting it to shut down, or less likely, a signal from the power supply to the system board signalling it has a problem and is about to shut down. I have a service guide which mentions the possibilty of the power supply shutting down due to a fan failure or high temperature but it doesn't give any details on how this works or even how to find out if it is happening. Does anyone have any detailed information about the power control system in the Alphaserver 1000A or any helpful suggestions? Regards, Peter Coghlan. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jul 17 17:42:59 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 18:42:59 -0400 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <01O3Q6QHZ1GM003ASL@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01O3LY20EUXE0036LH@beyondthepale.ie> <01O3Q6QHZ1GM003ASL@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: Well, no one came to claim any of the VT fixums on Saturday, so they went to the MIT flea, and a few folks walked away with one. There are still more we need to get rid of. Next month! The triage session at RCS yielded 6-8 good VT100oids, which we intend to keep. One of the VT100s is one of the R at Re! green screen variants. -- Will From billdeg at degnanco.com Sun Jul 17 19:16:10 2011 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B Degnan) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 20:16:10 -0400 Subject: My first ASR-33 TTY (Tony Duell) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201107180016.p6I0GSpv033191@billy.ezwind.net> > > > > > A great trick that I learned at the (awesome) ASR-33 workshop at > > VCF-E is to replace the striker with a piece of vinyl tubing. You can > > get it at pretty much any hardware store. Use 7/8"L, 7/16"ID, 5/16"OD > > vinyl tubing. > >How does that work? The original rubber hammer is a cap that fits over a >stud on the metal actuator. You surely don;'t put a collar of tubing >around the stud, do you/ If so, what's to stop the end of the stud >hitting the type cylidner? > >Or do you somehat put a piece of the tubing as a slever ovr the complete >actuator, puting it on from,the top? > Tony, Exactly, fit it snuggly over the whole thing like a sleeve. Remove the old gummy pad first. Works like a charm and will last for a very long time. This way you don't have to cut a replacement pad and then find an adhesive. Bill From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 18 12:39:46 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 18:39:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <01O3Q6QHZ1GM003ASL@beyondthepale.ie> from "Peter Coghlan" at Jul 16, 11 07:29:49 pm Message-ID: > Its been over 15 years since I last saw the back of a VT100 and my feeble In my case, s/years/minutes/ :-) > memory doesn't recall the details. However, now that you mention it, I do > remember the keyboard jack. In the event of getting a working display but > no response from the keyboard, standard procedure was to reach behind the > terminal and wiggle the keyboard connector until a click was heard from > the speaker and then try again. I see... Of course the speaker was in the keyboard unit, so I guess the click yuo heard was the keyboardelectorncis powering up or being initialisd when the faulty contact at the plug was no longer faulty. > It never dawned on me that the 50/60Hz selection in setup was for the video I wonder what else it could be fore :-) > output frame rate. I assumed it was supposed to be set to the frequency of > the mains supply but I never bothered to figure out exactly what effect it You are. It also sets, of cource the frame rate for the internal display (same videO0. The problem with getting ir wrong is that that the screen image can strobe aginst mains powered lights and you get a very annoying 10Hz filcker. I have never managed to get this effect, but I am told it can happen. Setiting it wrongly won't do anay damage, of course. As an aside, I have a Fluke data logger which has 2 internal 50/60Hz selection swtiches. One sets the division ration for the real time clock counter (which takes the mains as its frequency reference), the otehr cotnrols the timing of the ADC so that it integrates the input signal over a whole number of mains cycles, effectively eleimantate mains-frequency noise. But that's anot a particualrly common reason for having rreqeucny selection [Yes this is sort-of on-topic. The unit is controlled by 2 4040 microprocessors, one for system control and one on the paper tape output PCB, > might have or why not having it set correctly didn't seem to make any great > difference. If it was marked frame rate or something like that, I would > probably have figured it out. I am surte it's in one of the fine manuals.... > I just had a hunt through setup on my VT220 and I can't find a 50/60Hz option. I may have been msitaken. Alas I don;t have a VT220 or any later DEC terminal, so I can't fire one up and look for it. The only real DEC termianls I have are a VT55, VT100 (2 or 3) and a VT105. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 18 12:45:29 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 18:45:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: Alphaserver 1000A power supply shutting down In-Reply-To: <01O3RJM4Y8BM003BM1@beyondthepale.ie> from "Peter Coghlan" at Jul 17, 11 09:42:36 pm Message-ID: > I tried a power supply unit from another Alphaserver 1000A and found > this did not cure the problem so I replaced the original. Thinking > that the power supply might be sensing an overload, I disconnected > the power feeds to the disks/cd/floppy and removed all the PCI cards. > The problem was still there. > > When it was failing regularly, I found a line going to the power > supply which normally sat at 0V and pulsed high just as the power > supply shut down. This line did not pulse the same way when the > power was turned off normally. I suspect it is a signal from the > system board to the power supply requesting it to shut down, or > less likely, a signal from the power supply to the system board > signalling it has a problem and is about to shut down. > > I have a service guide which mentions the possibilty of the power > supply shutting down due to a fan failure or high temperature but > it doesn't give any details on how this works or even how to find > out if it is happening. That was my first thought (woithout reading the manuals...) How many wires do the fans have? If they have 3 or more, it's quite likely that they are power, ground, and soem kind of monitor line. Possibly a frequency indicating how fast the fan is turning, possibly a simple 'I#ve failed' signal. In any case I'd investigate there. I assuem the fans are all running, and running somewhere near the right speed? Overtemperature might be a mechasnical switch, or a semiconductor sensor (probably the latter). Can you trace this shutdown sire from the PSU onto the mainboard and see what it goes to? If you're lucky it'll be a recongisable chip (maybe a microcontroller). See if that takes inputs from the fane or a temperature sunsor. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 18 13:06:43 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 19:06:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4E23511C.3020102@jwsss.com> from "jim s" at Jul 17, 11 02:16:12 pm Message-ID: > > One of my friends had a card printed up (this is Leon K) which included > the title Physicist. He worked for TRW when they made satellites, and > was responsible for balancing the spacecraft loads and as such did real > physics. If you need to blame someone for orbiting 400# of sand because > a payload was not ready, he specified the mass and shape of the load. > > We hired him to balance a CIE systems CI-300 printer which was vibrating > all over the computer room for CI. The desire was not to just make a > heavier stand, but to dampen the vibrations so the printer wouldn't > dance around. Our design as submitted worked, but in the end they went > with heavy stand, and really sticky (rubber) feet on the stand. So in other words you employed a physicist, but didn't actually make use of the work he did. I can see a lot of physicists would get disheartneed by things like that (spending time doign the job properly just to have it ignored). And I can see that manymanagers would not bother to employ a physicist if they can pridcue a workable pduct by BFI. -tony From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Jul 18 14:14:12 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:14:12 -0700 Subject: Decmate I / VT278 questions In-Reply-To: <201107171239.p6HCdV4P029282@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <201107171239.p6HCdV4P029282@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: <2a88edc24c8dd66f62bdadd666807ab3@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Jul 17, at 5:39 AM, David Gesswein wrote: >> Anybody happen to know whether a bare Decmate like this (no >> keyboard, no disk drives) should display anything on-screen upon >> power-up? >> > I just tested mine (has COMM board). It displays nothing on the CRT > until > the keyboard is pluged in. After that it displays setup. Just took a look at the schematic to see what it might take to fake a keyboard enough to fool it. A little experimentation and it turns out that connecting the data line (ring) to +12V (tip) after it has been powered up (seems to need the transition after power-up) brings up the SET-UP message and flashing cursor after a few seconds. Interesting signalling scheme on the data line, bidirectional signalling is accomplished with some comparators and resistor networks (and some C) on each end, but it seems the keyboard is also clocked from the processor/terminal end. So the one data line is carrying 3 signals: clock and data to the keyboard and data back from the keyboard. From jws at jwsss.com Mon Jul 18 16:08:32 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 14:08:32 -0700 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E24A0D0.4070302@jwsss.com> We implemented his work, tested it, paid him for it, and the customer made the choice. His work was not dumped, since we did verify the solution. The customer kept both solutions and implemented the brute force one for all customers. The one who requested that we come up with the balance solution did get the unit and kept it. In a case where only you only make hundreds of pieces, it usually is cheaper to add some sand, than to have to scrap an entire design and do what we did. If they had done the design from scratch, I think the balance design could have won, but you were dealing with a situation where there ware a lot of installations who didn't care about the extra weight issue, etc. They may well have used the solution for other similar situations, but they didn't have to buy anything from us or from our physicist friend. And he was glad to have the assignment. If we had not employed him, the instant case we were trying to solve which involved an installation with a raised floor and other reasons not to want a bunch of ballast added to their print stands was solved. Jim On 7/18/2011 11:06 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > So in other words you employed a physicist, but didn't actually make use > of the work he did. From a50mhzham at gmail.com Mon Jul 18 16:40:27 2011 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 16:40:27 -0500 Subject: Alphaserver 1000A power supply shutting down In-Reply-To: <01O3RJM4Y8BM003BM1@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01O3RJM4Y8BM003BM1@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <4e24a81b.8b25e70a.03c2.ffff9748@mx.google.com> At 03:42 PM 7/17/2011, you wrote: >I have an Alphaserver 1000A which began intermittently halting, same snip >When it was failing regularly, I found a line going to the power >supply which normally sat at 0V and pulsed high just as the power >supply shut down. This line did not pulse the same way when the >power was turned off normally. I suspect it is a signal from the >system board to the power supply requesting it to shut down, or >less likely, a signal from the power supply to the system board >signalling it has a problem and is about to shut down. That sounds like a crowbar circuit. If these are linear power supplies, it's more likely to have a crowbar, but I've seen some switchmode power supply units with it. There's a simple circuit somewhere that senses a failure that's in some way dangerous to the equipment operated by that power supply, maybe just a zener, resistor, and maybe a capacitor too, to sense overvoltage. Trips the crowbar by firing an SCR to short the output so it will shut down abruptly. Called a crowbar because it's like dropping a very large conductor, like a crowbar, across the output terminals. Since over voltage can fry a lot of expensive kit, they use a crowbar to pop a fuse or breaker, rather than risk more damage. The crowbar is possibly adjustable, but I'd start by checking the specs on output voltage and make sure it's adjusted correctly on all output busses. 320 . [Philosophy] "I shall cheerfully bear the reproach of having descended below the dignity of history." --Lord Macaulay. NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jul 18 18:35:07 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 18:35:07 -0500 Subject: Tandy 102 display fault Message-ID: <4E24C32B.50805@gmail.com> I managed to scavenge a Tandy 102 earlier today (1988 build, 32K memory). Physically it's in good condition, and powers up, but the display's a bit unwell, having an entire row of dead pixels 4 up from the bottom, and a 32-pixel high column of dead pixels 22 pixels in from the left (on just the lower half of the screen, the upper 32 in that column are OK). The fault seems a little bit more subtle than that, however; sometimes (depending on which app I'm in, and the angle of the screen, and what I type) I can see some garbage in the first two characters (12 pixels) of the dead row - usually much fainter than normal "on" pixels (barely even visible), and occasionally a fully-on pixel, but at the wrong x-offset for whatever I've typed. Question is, where to point the finger? I've no idea how the 102 addresses the screen, although when I was checking it over inside before powering on I noticed all of the HD44102 ICs - are each of these responsible for a small rectangular area, or is the relationship between them and their pixels more complex? Could a fault with one potentially knock out / corrupt an entire display row? Does anyone have a simple BASIC listing for a main memory check? That could be useful (one particular reason for mentioning that is that when I first powered the machine up, it had a non-default date and showed some files present, but in trying to scroll through the contents of one it reset, lost the files, and set the date back to 1900). I already re-seated the cabling between display and the main logic board; the cable itself looks to be in good condition with no signs of severe distress, but I'll check the individual lines with a meter just to be sure. cheers Jules From hachti at hachti.de Mon Jul 18 21:11:45 2011 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 04:11:45 +0200 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <5AA8DA37D24241F8A72DB2C034BA242D@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4E1D7BF7.9000905@hachti.de> <4E1DE364.5090700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4E24E7E1.6070504@hachti.de> Am 13.07.2011 20:34, schrieb Henk Gooijen: > And not to forget ... IIRC, the VT220 was the only DEC terminal that > supported both RS-232 and 20 mA current loop. Really? What is the mate-n lock connector on the back of the VT05 for? I never used it but silently assumed that it was a 20mA interface... From hachti at hachti.de Mon Jul 18 21:15:45 2011 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 04:15:45 +0200 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara><5AA8DA37D24241F8A72DB2C034BA242D@RODSDEVSYSTEM><4E1D7BF7.9000905@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4E24E8D1.9030709@hachti.de> Am 13.07.2011 18:06, schrieb Henk Gooijen: > I must be very lucky ... > I own a VT55-FB (similar to VT-52), one VT05 *and* the Dasher D2. I must be even more lucky... I had the choice to get a few of these VT52 beasts. But didn't take one because I don't like them :-) Or do I have one sitting somewhere on the shelf? An I have a VT05. And I had a Dasher D2. It looked nice. But I gave it to someone who is more DG affiliated... Don't remember the price. Was for free or something less than EUR 25. I also have a VT06.... Regards, Philipp From CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie Mon Jul 18 16:10:46 2011 From: CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 22:10:46 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Alphaserver 1000A power supply shutting down In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 18 Jul 2011 18:45:29 +0100 (BST)" References: <01O3RJM4Y8BM003BM1@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01O3T8UZBG900023ED@beyondthepale.ie> > >> When it was failing regularly, I found a line going to the power >> supply which normally sat at 0V and pulsed high just as the power >> supply shut down. This line did not pulse the same way when the >> power was turned off normally. I suspect it is a signal from the >> system board to the power supply requesting it to shut down, or >> less likely, a signal from the power supply to the system board >> signalling it has a problem and is about to shut down. >> >> I have a service guide which mentions the possibilty of the power >> supply shutting down due to a fan failure or high temperature but >> it doesn't give any details on how this works or even how to find >> out if it is happening. > > >That was my first thought (woithout reading the manuals...) > >How many wires do the fans have? If they have 3 or more, it's quite >likely that they are power, ground, and soem kind of monitor line. >Possibly a frequency indicating how fast the fan is turning, possibly a >simple 'I#ve failed' signal. In any case I'd investigate there. > >I assuem the fans are all running, and running somewhere near the right >speed? > There are two fans. Both run at what looks like a reasonable speed. Both have only two wires but they are plugged into three way connectors on the system board. This led me to suspect that the manual was lying about the fans being monitored (like it lies about the on-board video and a few other items which are not fitted in my machine). However, I found that if I unplugged or manually stalled either fan, the power supply did indeed shut down about a second or two later, with the above mentioned line to the power supply pulsing high like it does when the fault happens. As there are no sensing wires to the fans, I guess the current drawn by them must be monitored to generate the fault signal. On many occasions, the power supply has tripped out less than a second after switching on. In that time, there is a brief flash from the power on LED and the fans rotate somewhat. This is definately less time than it takes for the circuit to react to me disabling the fans manually and is not enough time for the fans to get fully up to speed either. So, I suspect the fans themselves are ok and either the fan monitoring circuit or temperature monitoring circuit is more likely to be faulty. (There is good airflow and nothing appears to me to be getting too hot.) > >Overtemperature might be a mechasnical switch, or a semiconductor >sensor (probably the latter). > Nothing stands out as obviously being a temperature sensor but I don't know what one would look like. Maybe something in a metallic package, mounted near the top of the vertically mounted system board? I can't see anything that fits that bill nor anything on flying leads either. > >Can you trace this shutdown sire from the PSU onto the mainboard and see >what it goes to? If you're lucky it'll be a recongisable chip (maybe a >microcontroller). See if that takes inputs from the fane or a temperature >sunsor. > Not really. It's a multilayer board and it is not at all obvious where the trace goes. There are no likely suspects near the connector and there is lots of other stuff such as the memory between the connector and any more likely suspects. There is an LM339 and a largish 1 Ohm resistor over the other side near where the fan connectors are so perhaps those are responsible for monitoring the fans? There's nothing near those components that looks like a likely temperature sensor. The manual mentions a couple of jumpers which it says can be set to generate a machine check rather than shutting off the power when there is a fan fault or temperature fault. This looks worth a try now that I know the fan monitoring at least could be responsible for the problem although I probably need to install a different version of VMS first (one from before they messed up the error log analyser. The version I have at the moment reports I have generated some errors on a VAX 11/780 in 1996, 15 years before the creation date of the error log file...) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From doug at doughq.com Mon Jul 18 20:49:56 2011 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 11:49:56 +1000 Subject: Tandy 102 display fault In-Reply-To: <4E24C32B.50805@gmail.com> References: <4E24C32B.50805@gmail.com> Message-ID: Most of the display faults are caused by the rubber compression connectors between the glass and the display failing to make contact. This can be caused by the unit receiving a blow to one edge, cracking the glass . You may be lucky, and it may simply be some grime in the contact area. Disassemble the display, you will find that the LCD module is comprised of a 'pane' of glass held in contact with a PCB, using some metal lugs. If you rotate the metal lugs so that they line up with the slots in the PCB, you will be able to disassemble the assembly. You will find the rubber contact strips - give them a good wipe down with alcohol. Give the glass contacts a gentle wipe down with Alcohol as well. Inspect the glass witha magnifier under good light, looking for a telltale crack alone one edge - you will see the contacts as being transparent plated sections - If you don't see any cracks, re-assemble it and give it another go. Be gentle with the lugs - you get to disassemble the display a finite number of times. Doug On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 9:35 AM, Jules Richardson < jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > I managed to scavenge a Tandy 102 earlier today (1988 build, 32K memory). > Physically it's in good condition, and powers up, but the display's a bit > unwell, having an entire row of dead pixels 4 up from the bottom, and a > 32-pixel high column of dead pixels 22 pixels in from the left (on just the > lower half of the screen, the upper 32 in that column are OK). > > The fault seems a little bit more subtle than that, however; sometimes > (depending on which app I'm in, and the angle of the screen, and what I > type) I can see some garbage in the first two characters (12 pixels) of the > dead row - usually much fainter than normal "on" pixels (barely even > visible), and occasionally a fully-on pixel, but at the wrong x-offset for > whatever I've typed. > > Question is, where to point the finger? I've no idea how the 102 addresses > the screen, although when I was checking it over inside before powering on I > noticed all of the HD44102 ICs - are each of these responsible for a small > rectangular area, or is the relationship between them and their pixels more > complex? Could a fault with one potentially knock out / corrupt an entire > display row? > > Does anyone have a simple BASIC listing for a main memory check? That could > be useful (one particular reason for mentioning that is that when I first > powered the machine up, it had a non-default date and showed some files > present, but in trying to scroll through the contents of one it reset, lost > the files, and set the date back to 1900). > > I already re-seated the cabling between display and the main logic board; > the cable itself looks to be in good condition with no signs of severe > distress, but I'll check the individual lines with a meter just to be sure. > > cheers > > Jules > -- Doug Jackson VK1ZDJ http://www.dougswordclock.com/ -< My clocks http://www.vk1zdj.net -< My Amature Radio Activities From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 09:03:31 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 09:03:31 -0500 Subject: Tandy 102 display fault In-Reply-To: References: <4E24C32B.50805@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4E258EB3.9040302@gmail.com> Doug Jackson wrote: > Most of the display faults are caused by the rubber compression connectors > between the glass and the display failing to make contact. This can be > caused by the unit receiving a blow to one edge, cracking the glass . > > You may be lucky, and it may simply be some grime in the contact area. > Disassemble the display, you will find that the LCD module is comprised of a > 'pane' of glass held in contact with a PCB, using some metal lugs. > [snip] Hi Doug, Thanks for the info. I just dismantled the LCD as you suggested and cleaned everything up, and it all seems to be alive and well now! I think the last time I took an actual LCD apart to this extent was well over 20 years ago, and it didn't end well. ;-) This particular 102 was once owned by the Grand Forks Herald, so was presumably used to write many a story. It came with some helpful notes to journalists on how to use it and upload copy - sadly it only had a plain modem lead/jack though, rather than the acoustic coupler mentioned in the notes! cheers Jules From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jul 19 11:28:25 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 10:28:25 -0600 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <4E24E7E1.6070504@hachti.de> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <5AA8DA37D24241F8A72DB2C034BA242D@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4E1D7BF7.9000905@hachti.de> <4E1DE364.5090700@gmail.com> <4E24E7E1.6070504@hachti.de> Message-ID: In article <4E24E7E1.6070504 at hachti.de>, Philipp Hachtmann writes: > Am 13.07.2011 20:34, schrieb Henk Gooijen: > > > And not to forget ... IIRC, the VT220 was the only DEC terminal that > > supported both RS-232 and 20 mA current loop. > Really? What is the mate-n lock connector on the back of the VT05 for? I > never used it but silently assumed that it was a 20mA interface... GIGI also has support for RS-232 and 20mA current loop. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jul 19 11:29:38 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 10:29:38 -0600 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <4E24E8D1.9030709@hachti.de> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara><5AA8DA37D24241F8A72DB2C034BA242D@RODSDEVSYSTEM><4E1D7BF7.9000905@hachti.de> <4E24E8D1.9030709@hachti.de> Message-ID: In article <4E24E8D1.9030709 at hachti.de>, Philipp Hachtmann writes: > I also have a VT06.... That might be the only one in existence at this point. Please don't scrap it without making it available to others :) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 19 11:34:40 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 12:34:40 -0400 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara><5AA8DA37D24241F8A72DB2C034BA242D@RODSDEVSYSTEM><4E1D7BF7.9000905@hachti.de> <4E24E8D1.9030709@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4E25B220.3040100@neurotica.com> On 07/19/2011 12:29 PM, Richard wrote: > In article<4E24E8D1.9030709 at hachti.de>, > Philipp Hachtmann writes: > >> I also have a VT06.... > > That might be the only one in existence at this point. > > Please don't scrap it without making it available to others :) Look who you're talking to. I don't think there's any risk of that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jul 19 11:52:55 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 10:52:55 -0600 Subject: ebay: Tektronix 8310 microprocessor development unit (Goldendale, WA) Message-ID: See item # 130549364208 It has all the probes and manuals, which is more than is usually offered for these things on ebay. Looks a little dusty/dirty, but otherwise appears to be in working order. Seller wants $10 for it, which is probably less than scrap value. About 2 hrs from Portland, OR. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 19 12:08:30 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 10:08:30 -0700 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <4E25B220.3040100@neurotica.com> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara>, , <4E25B220.3040100@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E25579E.13542.29526E@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Jul 2011 at 12:34, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 07/19/2011 12:29 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article<4E24E8D1.9030709 at hachti.de>, > > Philipp Hachtmann writes: > > > >> I also have a VT06.... > > > > That might be the only one in existence at this point. > > > > Please don't scrap it without making it available to others :) > > Look who you're talking to. I don't think there's any risk of > that. Isn't that just a rebadged Datapoint 3300? It's not a real DEC product. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 19 13:15:49 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 19:15:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Alphaserver 1000A power supply shutting down In-Reply-To: <01O3T8UZBG900023ED@beyondthepale.ie> from "Peter Coghlan" at Jul 18, 11 10:10:46 pm Message-ID: > There are two fans. Both run at what looks like a reasonable speed. Both > have only two wires but they are plugged into three way connectors on the > system board. This led me to suspect that the manual was lying about the > fans being monitored (like it lies about the on-board video and a few other > items which are not fitted in my machine). > > However, I found that if I unplugged or manually stalled either fan, the > power supply did indeed shut down about a second or two later, with the above > mentioned line to the power supply pulsing high like it does when the fault > happens. As there are no sensing wires to the fans, I guess the current drawn > by them must be monitored to generate the fault signal. Ah, that has confirmed one thing, I think. That the signal in question is some kind of safety shutdown. Now to find out what's triggering it. > > On many occasions, the power supply has tripped out less than a second after > switching on. In that time, there is a brief flash from the power on LED and > the fans rotate somewhat. This is definately less time than it takes for the > circuit to react to me disabling the fans manually and is not enough time for > the fans to get fully up to speed either. So, I suspect the fans themselves > are ok and either the fan monitoring circuit or temperature monitoring circuit > is more likely to be faulty. (There is good airflow and nothing appears to me > to be getting too hot.) OK... > > > > >Overtemperature might be a mechasnical switch, or a semiconductor > >sensor (probably the latter). > > > > Nothing stands out as obviously being a temperature sensor but I don't know > what one would look like. Maybe something in a metallic package, mounted It might just be an To92 package (like a small-signal transsitor). If so, it migth be a right pain to find. > near the top of the vertically mounted system board? I can't see anything that > fits that bill nor anything on flying leads either. > > > > >Can you trace this shutdown sire from the PSU onto the mainboard and see > >what it goes to? If you're lucky it'll be a recongisable chip (maybe a > >microcontroller). See if that takes inputs from the fane or a temperature > >sunsor. > > > > Not really. It's a multilayer board and it is not at all obvious where the > trace goes. There are no likely suspects near the connector and there is lots I would use an ohmeter or a good continutiy tester to trace it. If necessarty, stroke one probe along every pin on the board... > of other stuff such as the memory between the connector and any more likely > suspects. There is an LM339 and a largish 1 Ohm resistor over the other side > near where the fan connectors are so perhaps those are responsible for > monitoring the fans? There's nothing near those components that looks like a Quite possibly. Monitorign the current by the drop acrtoss the 1Ohm resistor. I think I'd stick a a logic probe on the output of each section of that 339 in turn and see if you get any activity when you unplug or stall a fan. Of coruse we dont yet know that he genuine shutdowns are caused by a fan problem. But I guess you could also montiro the outpus fo the 339 when a real shut-down occurs. > likely temperature sensor. > > The manual mentions a couple of jumpers which it says can be set to generate > a machine check rather than shutting off the power when there is a fan fault > or temperature fault. This looks worth a try now that I know the fan monitoring I wonder what these jumpers are actually connected to... Why do I wish there were scheamtics of this darn thing available... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 19 13:41:39 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 19:41:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tandy 102 display fault In-Reply-To: <4E24C32B.50805@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Jul 18, 11 06:35:07 pm Message-ID: > > > I managed to scavenge a Tandy 102 earlier today (1988 build, 32K memory). > Physically it's in good condition, and powers up, but the display's a bit > unwell, having an entire row of dead pixels 4 up from the bottom, and a > 32-pixel high column of dead pixels 22 pixels in from the left (on just the > lower half of the screen, the upper 32 in that column are OK). I am going to assuem that the display is similar (if not identical) to that used in the M100. I don;t have any technical information om the M102, but I have the M100 Techref to hand, and it includes the LCD schematic The LCD is a 240*64 pixel unit. Electircally it's better considered as a pair of 240*32 pixel untis one above the other. There are separate column lines ot the display cclass for each column in the the top and bottom halves of the display and 32 backpalne connections, for each of the 32 row pairs (row 0 in each half, reow 1 in each half, etc) The HD44103 ICs drive the backplanes. It's not shown on the schematic, but from the PCB layout, it may well be that each output of these ICs goes to 2 pins on the display, one for each half. If so, your single misisng row is probably a bad connection from a backplane contact on the LCD glass to the PCB. The HD44102 ICs drive the columns, each output driving half a vertical column of pixels (remember my comment that it's 2 displays one above the other :-)). So your mising half-column is either a bad output on a 44102 or a abd conenction from that to the display, > > The fault seems a little bit more subtle than that, however; sometimes > (depending on which app I'm in, and the angle of the screen, and what I > type) I can see some garbage in the first two characters (12 pixels) of the > dead row - usually much fainter than normal "on" pixels (barely even > visible), and occasionally a fully-on pixel, but at the wrong x-offset for > whatever I've typed. Welcome ot th world oF LCDs... Each pixel on an LCD is electrically a cpaacitor, and unlike LED displays, it's not polarised. So if you make a matrix of them, sneak paths must ecist (they are blocked in LED matricies by virtue of the fact that some LEds would be reverse biased on such a sneak path). If an electrode is flating rather than bing clampled to the right voltage, you will get ghosting, etc. Somebody else mentioend cleanign the zebrastrips betwee nthe display and the PCB (pull the whold thing apart and clean the PCB, the connector strips, and the flanges o nth eglass where th estrips connect with propan-2-ol). You might also check the sodlerign of the ICs on the LCB board, in other machines I've had dry joiuts on the driver pins casue similar problems. -tony From hachti at hachti.de Tue Jul 19 17:18:42 2011 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 00:18:42 +0200 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara><5AA8DA37D24241F8A72DB2C034BA242D@RODSDEVSYSTEM><4E1D7BF7.9000905@hachti.de> <4E24E8D1.9030709@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4E2602C2.4000302@hachti.de> Am 19.07.2011 18:29, schrieb Richard: > In article<4E24E8D1.9030709 at hachti.de>, > Philipp Hachtmann writes: > >> I also have a VT06.... > > That might be the only one in existence at this point. I've been told that I have two - forgot the other one. The other is a Data Point 3300 without VT05 and DEC on it... > Please don't scrap it without making it available to others :) Currently not :-) From hachti at hachti.de Tue Jul 19 17:19:40 2011 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 00:19:40 +0200 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <4E25579E.13542.29526E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara>, , <4E25B220.3040100@neurotica.com> <4E25579E.13542.29526E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E2602FC.7060900@hachti.de> Am 19.07.2011 19:08, schrieb Chuck Guzis: > Isn't that just a rebadged Datapoint 3300? It's not a real DEC > product. Right. And I have both versions. Picked them up for completeness. Would have been a bit sad to let them go to the dumpster. From hachti at hachti.de Tue Jul 19 17:21:54 2011 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 00:21:54 +0200 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara>, , <5134e4e9772f8513ba3bf844a2261d29@cs.ubc.ca> <4E1DA193.16884.13198BA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E260382.1040106@hachti.de> Am 13.07.2011 23:28, schrieb Alexandre Souza - Listas: >>> http://hummingbirdsales.com/VT05.html > > WOW! Beautiful! :oD Uh, does a VT05 go for USD 3600? That's incredible! From hachti at hachti.de Tue Jul 19 17:22:40 2011 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 00:22:40 +0200 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <4E1DBE56.936.1A1F3C9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara>, <4E1DBE56.936.1A1F3C9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E2603B0.9090706@hachti.de> > Yes, but the ergonomics suck. If you get used to it... I use it on pdp8. And I like it. Better than the VT100 keyboard. From hachti at hachti.de Tue Jul 19 17:25:12 2011 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 00:25:12 +0200 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E260448.9060803@hachti.de> Am 15.07.2011 22:55, schrieb Tony Duell: > I've tried 'cat myfile> /dev/tty1' but I didn't get that result :-) Of course, you did it wrong: 'cat cat > /dev/tty1' will do the job! From hachti at hachti.de Tue Jul 19 17:29:41 2011 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 00:29:41 +0200 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <52A836FFB10F4691A90B6710A95E4C3C@RODSDEVSYSTEM> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> from"AlexandreSouza - Listas" at Jul 12, 11 05:20:17 pm <5AA8DA37D24241F8A72DB2C034BA242D@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4E1D7BF7.9000905@hachti.de> <52A836FFB10F4691A90B6710A95E4C3C@RODSDEVSYSTEM> Message-ID: <4E260555.70900@hachti.de> Am 13.07.2011 17:35, schrieb Rod Smallwood: > Yes it was very nice and I'd love one but it did not have the impact that > that the VT100 did. How many VT05 compatible terminals do you know of? Only my VT05 an another unit I've worked with. > The > VT50 and VT52 also had limited success. Because they were ugly? No, the VT100 is ugly as well... So I have no idea. Ph From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jul 19 18:38:39 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 16:38:39 -0700 Subject: transputer boards Message-ID: <4E26157F.6040105@bitsavers.org> anyone know anything about the boards he's selling? http://cgi.ebay.com/180698375748 From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Tue Jul 19 23:06:33 2011 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 06:06:33 +0200 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <4E260382.1040106@hachti.de> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara>, , <5134e4e9772f8513ba3bf844a2261d29@cs.ubc.ca> <4E1DA193.16884.13198BA@cclist.sydex.com> <4E260382.1040106@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4E265449.7090005@bluewin.ch> On 07/20/2011 12:21 AM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > > Uh, does a VT05 go for USD 3600? That's incredible! > Those are US prices. As always in Classiccmp, Europe prices are lower. But yes, VT05's are very rare beasts indeed...... Jos From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jul 20 00:10:01 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 23:10:01 -0600 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <4E265449.7090005@bluewin.ch> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara>, , <5134e4e9772f8513ba3bf844a2261d29@cs.ubc.ca> <4E1DA193.16884.13198BA@cclist.sydex.com> <4E260382.1040106@hachti.de> <4E265449.7090005@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: In article <4E265449.7090005 at bluewin.ch>, Jos Dreesen writes: > On 07/20/2011 12:21 AM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > > > > Uh, does a VT05 go for USD 3600? That's incredible! > > > > Those are US prices. As always in Classiccmp, Europe prices are lower. > But yes, VT05's are very rare beasts indeed...... Also note that the page says "Asking $3600. Reasonable offers considered." and "SOLD", but does not say that it sold for the asking price. I was offered one for $950 that looked to be in comparable shape, but I passed. I'm glad I did because lately I've been getting *much* more bang for my buck, both graphics and terminally speaking :). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jul 20 00:17:41 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 23:17:41 -0600 Subject: transputer boards In-Reply-To: <4E26157F.6040105@bitsavers.org> References: <4E26157F.6040105@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4E26157F.6040105 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > anyone know anything about the boards he's selling? > > http://cgi.ebay.com/180698375748 Never heard of B014 or B407 boards. They're not listed in my Transputer data books from 1987 or 1989 or any of the other transputer literature that I have from that time period. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Wed Jul 20 00:29:44 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 22:29:44 -0700 Subject: transputer boards In-Reply-To: References: <4E26157F.6040105@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E2667C8.7090005@mail.msu.edu> On 7/19/2011 10:17 PM, Richard wrote: > In article<4E26157F.6040105 at bitsavers.org>, > Al Kossow writes: > >> anyone know anything about the boards he's selling? >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/180698375748 > Never heard of B014 or B407 boards. They're not listed in my > Transputer data books from 1987 or 1989 or any of the other transputer > literature that I have from that time period. A quick Google search reveals this for the B407: http://www.classiccmp.org/transputer/imsb407.htm Looks like an ethernet TRAM. The B014 looks like a fairly standard VME-based Transputer board, looks like it'll take 8 Size-1 TRAMs. Looks like there's one here, though not a lot of detail: http://www.transputer.net/mtw/mtw.asp. - Josh From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Wed Jul 20 00:31:39 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 22:31:39 -0700 Subject: transputer boards In-Reply-To: <4E2667C8.7090005@mail.msu.edu> References: <4E26157F.6040105@bitsavers.org> <4E2667C8.7090005@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4E26683B.2070008@mail.msu.edu> On 7/19/2011 10:29 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 7/19/2011 10:17 PM, Richard wrote: >> In article<4E26157F.6040105 at bitsavers.org>, >> Al Kossow writes: >> >>> anyone know anything about the boards he's selling? >>> >>> http://cgi.ebay.com/180698375748 >> Never heard of B014 or B407 boards. They're not listed in my >> Transputer data books from 1987 or 1989 or any of the other transputer >> literature that I have from that time period. > > A quick Google search reveals this for the B407: > > http://www.classiccmp.org/transputer/imsb407.htm > > Looks like an ethernet TRAM. > > The B014 looks like a fairly standard VME-based Transputer board, > looks like it'll take 8 Size-1 TRAMs. Looks like there's one here, > though not a lot of detail: http://www.transputer.net/mtw/mtw.asp. > > - Josh > Heh, silly me. The B014 is described in detail here: http://www.classiccmp.org/transputer/imsb014.htm. VME-bus slave motherboard... - Josh From CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie Tue Jul 19 09:45:33 2011 From: CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 15:45:33 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Alphaserver 1000A power supply shutting down In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 18 Jul 2011 16:40:27 -0500" <4e24a81b.8b25e70a.03c2.ffff9748@mx.google.com> References: <01O3RJM4Y8BM003BM1@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01O3U5HX6FGK003DPN@beyondthepale.ie> At 03:42 PM 7/17/2011, Tom wrote: >That sounds like a crowbar circuit. If these are >linear power supplies, it's more likely to have a >crowbar, but I've seen some switchmode power >supply units with it. There's a simple circuit >somewhere that senses a failure that's in some >way dangerous to the equipment operated by that >power supply, maybe just a zener, resistor, and >maybe a capacitor too, to sense overvoltage. >Trips the crowbar by firing an SCR to short the >output so it will shut down abruptly. Called a >crowbar because it's like dropping a very large >conductor, like a crowbar, across the output terminals. > I doubt a crowbar circuit is involved. A crowbar tends to be used to blow a fuse or trip a mechanical circuit breaker, not to trip an electronic overcurrent protection. A single fault could both result in an overvoltage and a failure to respond to an overcurrent condition. Activating a crowbar circuit and relying on the overcurrent protection to cut the power in that situation could result in a big mess. > >Since over voltage can fry a lot of expensive >kit, they use a crowbar to pop a fuse or breaker, >rather than risk more damage. > Yes. However, there is no fuse blowing or breaker being tripped in this case, just the power supply shutting down. > >The crowbar is possibly adjustable, but I'd start >by checking the specs on output voltage and make >sure it's adjusted correctly on all output busses. > I'm not sure what all the voltages are supposed to be but the main ones appear to be correct. I've also tried a substitute power supply with identical results. It would be very unlikely that the two power supplies are both producing overvoltage conditions intermittently. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From james at mazurek.chicago.il.us Tue Jul 19 13:31:52 2011 From: james at mazurek.chicago.il.us (James L. Mazurek) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 13:31:52 -0500 Subject: VCFMW 6.0 / ECCC 2011 Message-ID: Vintage Computer Festival Midwest 6.0 / Emergency Chicagoland Commodore Convention 2011 http://vcfmw.org / http://starbase.globalpc.net/eccc September 24-25, 2011, Lombard, IL WHAT: VCFMW is a free and open exposition of classic computing hardware, software and memorabilia. ECCC is the world's top September destination for Commodore enjoyment. Two great shows, one great non-price! WHEN: 8AM Saturday, September 24, 2011 to 4PM Sunday, September 25, 2011 (display area will close 11PM Saturday to 10AM Sunday) WHERE: Heron Point Building, next to Fairfield Inn and Suites (Marriott) http://marriott.com/property/propertypage/CHIFS 665 West North Ave Lombard, Illinois 60148 USA 1-630-629-1500 Mention "Fall Commodore Expo" for special $69/night room rate! # Join the VCF-MW Facebook group! http://www.facebook.com/#!/event.php?eid=198133433540110 # Follow us on Twitter http://twitter.com/vcfmidwest # Join us on IRC at freenode #vcfmw # Visit for extra ECCC Facebookery. http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=199033060117396 Copyright ? 1997-2011 Vintage Computer Festival http://vintage.org Vintage Computer Festival and VCF are trademarks of VintageTech http://www.vintagetech.com From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Wed Jul 20 04:46:29 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 10:46:29 +0100 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <4E260555.70900@hachti.de> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara>from"AlexandreSouza - Listas" at Jul 12, 11 05:20:17pm <5AA8DA37D24241F8A72DB2C034BA242D@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4E1D7BF7.9000905@hachti.de><52A836FFB10F4691A90B6710A95E4C3C@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4E260555.70900@hachti.de> Message-ID: The VT50 and the VT52 were a lot different to the VT100. The VT50 I seem to remember was 12 x 80 and the VT52 was 24 x 80. They were large and heavy and really intended to be used on a stand. They would fill a desktop with no trouble. Inside the 50 and 52 were very much television technology. The boards were large, single sided, full of wire links and made from a cheap paper based PCB. (Phenolic?) They had limited functions and were really glass teletypes. Not so the VT100. A really well engineered micro processor based terminal with more functionality than a programmer knew what to do with. That said I would love to get a VT50 or VT52 as I have neither. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ????? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Philipp Hachtmann Sent: 19 July 2011 23:30 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: VT fixums Am 13.07.2011 17:35, schrieb Rod Smallwood: > Yes it was very nice and I'd love one but it did not have the impact that > that the VT100 did. How many VT05 compatible terminals do you know of? Only my VT05 an another unit I've worked with. > The > VT50 and VT52 also had limited success. Because they were ugly? No, the VT100 is ugly as well... So I have no idea. Ph From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Jul 20 05:39:03 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 06:39:03 -0400 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara>from"AlexandreSouza - Listas" at Jul 12, 11 05:20:17pm <5AA8DA37D24241F8A72DB2C034BA242D@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4E1D7BF7.9000905@hachti.de><52A836FFB10F4691A90B6710A95E4C3C@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4E260555.70900@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4E26B047.8000206@compsys.to> >Rod Smallwood wrote: >The VT50 and the VT52 were a lot different to the VT100. The VT50 I seem to >remember was 12 x 80 and the VT52 was 24 x 80. > >They were large and heavy and really intended to be used on a stand. They >would fill a desktop with no trouble. > >Inside the 50 and 52 were very much television technology. The boards were >large, single sided, full of wire links and made from a cheap paper based >PCB. (Phenolic?) > >They had limited functions and were really glass teletypes. >Not so the VT100. A really well engineered micro processor based terminal >with more functionality than a programmer knew what to do with. > >That said I would love to get a VT50 or VT52 as I have neither. > > If you are ever going to be in Toronto, please come and see me. Is it possible to ship a VT52? Any idea how much it would cost? Jerome Fine From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 20 10:42:51 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 08:42:51 -0700 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara>, <4E260555.70900@hachti.de>, Message-ID: <4E26950B.335.4A7DB3@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Jul 2011 at 10:46, Rod Smallwood wrote: > They had limited functions and were really glass teletypes. > Not so the VT100. A really well engineered micro processor based > terminal with more functionality than a programmer knew what to do > with. For their time, the VT52 terminals were quite a bit more than glass TTYs. I've used terminals that really were glass TTYs; at most, you could erase a screen or (hopefully) a line. There were terminals that did not implement any sort of scrolling. The VT-52 is pretty much full-featured with cursor positioning, erase to end of screen/line, primitive graphics, XON/XOFF flow control and a cursor keypad. For its time, not bad and certainly useful--and certainly enough for most editors and applications. One could have wished for a way to display characters wtih attributes (reverse, bold, underlined, etc.), but that's a minor quibble. Software-controllable scroll-lock would have been nice... But there were far less-capable terminals at the time. The VT52 was one of the terminals that moved the interactive mindset away from the teletype meme. --Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Jul 20 11:40:14 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 09:40:14 -0700 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <4E26B047.8000206@compsys.to> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara>from"AlexandreSouza - Listas" at Jul 12, 11 05:20:17pm <5AA8DA37D24241F8A72DB2C034BA242D@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4E1D7BF7.9000905@hachti.de><52A836FFB10F4691A90B6710A95E4C3C@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4E260555.70900@hachti.de> <4E26B047.8000206@compsys.to> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jerome H. Fine > Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 3:39 AM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: VT fixums > > >Rod Smallwood wrote: > > > >That said I would love to get a VT50 or VT52 as I have neither. > > > > > If you are ever going to be in Toronto, please come and see me. > Is it possible to ship a VT52? Any idea how much it would cost? > > Jerome Fine I shipped one a few years ago (and I'm still kicking myself). It was about $70 USD from one coast to the other and it got there in one piece! -- Ian From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jul 20 11:48:10 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 10:48:10 -0600 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara>from"AlexandreSouza - Listas" at Jul 12, 11 05:20:17pm <5AA8DA37D24241F8A72DB2C034BA242D@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4E1D7BF7.9000905@hachti.de><52A836FFB10F4691A90B6710A95E4C3C@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4E260555.70900@hachti.de> Message-ID: In article , "Rod Smallwood" writes: > Inside the 50 and 52 were very much television technology. The boards were > large, single sided, full of wire links and made from a cheap paper based > PCB. (Phenolic?) Did the VT5x have a microprocessor or was it discrete logic? I know the VT05 has discrete logic. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jul 20 11:49:54 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 10:49:54 -0600 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <4E26B047.8000206@compsys.to> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara>from"AlexandreSouza - Listas" at Jul 12, 11 05:20:17pm <5AA8DA37D24241F8A72DB2C034BA242D@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4E1D7BF7.9000905@hachti.de><52A836FFB10F4691A90B6710A95E4C3C@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4E260555.70900@hachti.de> <4E26B047.8000206@compsys.to> Message-ID: In article <4E26B047.8000206 at compsys.to>, "Jerome H. Fine" writes: > Is it possible to ship a VT52? Any idea how much it would cost? Yes, and I'd guess $100 minimum. If its not packed properly, it doesn't matter how much you spent on shipping it because it will arrive smashed. The most important thing is to provide shock absorbing packing, orient the unit in its normal orientation (i.e. not sideways, upside down or some such) and to use a sturdy double-walled cardboard box, preferably a new one and not a used one. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jul 20 11:52:13 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 10:52:13 -0600 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <4E26950B.335.4A7DB3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara>, <4E260555.70900@hachti.de>, <4E26950B.335.4A7DB3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4E26950B.335.4A7DB3 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > For their time, the VT52 terminals were quite a bit more than glass > TTYs. I've used terminals that really were glass TTYs; at most, you > could erase a screen or (hopefully) a line. There were terminals > that did not implement any sort of scrolling. Interesting! I'd have thought scrolling was a bare minimum for a CRT terminal. So did it wrap around to the top or what? Do you remember brand names? > For its time, not bad and certainly useful--and certainly enough for > most editors and applications. IIRC, one of the first "visual editor" software was a set of macros for TECO on a VT52. The predecessor of emacs. > But there were far less-capable terminals at the time. The VT52 was > one of the terminals that moved the interactive mindset away from the > teletype meme. Nice summary! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 20 12:23:25 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 13:23:25 -0400 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara>, <4E260555.70900@hachti.de>, <4E26950B.335.4A7DB3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E270F0D.9060409@neurotica.com> On 07/20/2011 12:52 PM, Richard wrote: > IIRC, one of the first "visual editor" software was a set of macros > for TECO on a VT52. The predecessor of emacs. Not really the predecessor of emacs, but the first implementation of it. Editor MACroS, as a set of macros for TECO, was where the whole emacs world began in the mid-1970s. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 20 12:24:17 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 13:24:17 -0400 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <4E260555.70900@hachti.de> <4E26950B.335.4A7DB3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 12:52 PM, Richard wrote: > Interesting! ?I'd have thought scrolling was a bare minimum for a CRT > terminal. ?So did it wrap around to the top or what? I think I've seen some non-ANSI dumb terminals that could clear the screen (^L perhaps?) and fill the screen, but then, the text piled up on the bottom line if your code didn't re-clear the screen. > Do you remember brand names? I do not. Take my memories as just that - and possible inaccurate or at least incomplete. >> For its time, not bad and certainly useful--and certainly enough for >> most editors and applications. > > IIRC, one of the first "visual editor" software was a set of macros > for TECO on a VT52. ?The predecessor of emacs. Yep. I used that a lot under OS/8. It's why I bought a VT52 in the first place (the VT52 emulation on the VT220 didn't quite work right - I was originally using a VT220 because of the built-in 20mA current-loop, and for glass-tty apps, it worked just fine). ISTR paying around $50 for a VT52 in 1986, plus shipping, probably bought from Newman Computer Exchange in MI. -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jul 20 12:28:02 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 11:28:02 -0600 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara>from"AlexandreSouza - Listas" at Jul 12, 11 05:20:17pm <5AA8DA37D24241F8A72DB2C034BA242D@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4E1D7BF7.9000905@hachti.de><52A836FFB10F4691A90B6710A95E4C3C@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4E260555.70900@hachti.de> <4E26B047.8000206@compsys.to> Message-ID: In article , Ian King writes: > I shipped [a VT5x] a few years ago (and I'm still kicking myself). > It was about $70 USD from one coast to the other and it got there > in one piece! -- Ian For the size and weight of a VT52 and current fuel costs, $70 sounds cheap. I ship CRT terminals fairly frequently and typical costs have ranged from $75 (cheap) to $150, with 100-150 being more typical for the larger heavier terminals and $50-100 being more typical for smaller lighter terminals (like a Silent700). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Jul 20 13:29:57 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 11:29:57 -0700 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <4E26950B.335.4A7DB3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara>, <4E260555.70900@hachti.de>, <4E26950B.335.4A7DB3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: From:Chuck Guzis Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 8:43 AM On 20 Jul 2011 at 10:46, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> They had limited functions and were really glass teletypes. >> Not so the VT100. A really well engineered micro processor based >> terminal with more functionality than a programmer knew what to do >> with. > For their time, the VT52 terminals were quite a bit more than glass > TTYs. I've used terminals that really were glass TTYs; at most, you > could erase a screen or (hopefully) a line. There were terminals > that did not implement any sort of scrolling. > The VT-52 is pretty much full-featured with cursor positioning, erase > to end of screen/line, primitive graphics, XON/XOFF flow control and > a cursor keypad. > For its time, not bad and certainly useful--and certainly enough for > most editors and applications. One could have wished for a way to > display characters wtih attributes (reverse, bold, underlined, etc.), > but that's a minor quibble. Software-controllable scroll-lock would > have been nice... As a matter of fact, I created a "3-D" version of the Star Trek game for the VT52 (actually a clone, I think a Teleray, but code compatible with the VT52). Even did all the spherical trig to get torpedo tracks right. If you remember, the BASIC version of the game would type out an 8x8 sector map, showing stars, Klingons, and the Romulan. I was exposed to this game under VSBASIC on a 370/168 under Wylbur at the University of Chicago Comp Center; I read the entire source, thought "I can do better than this," and wrote a version in PL/I that would clear the screen of a VT52, type 8 8x8 sector maps, with a ship's status display in the center of the screen. It ran interactively under TSO. Not long after, I was introduced to Adventure on the DEC-20, and a love affair began that has not ended to this day. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jul 20 13:59:40 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 12:59:40 -0600 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara>, <4E260555.70900@hachti.de>, <4E26950B.335.4A7DB3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article , Rich Alderson writes: > As a matter of fact, I created a "3-D" version of the Star Trek game > for the VT52 (actually a clone, I think a Teleray, but code compatible > with the VT52). Even did all the spherical trig to get torpedo tracks > right. > > If you remember, the BASIC version of the game would type out an 8x8 > sector map, showing stars, Klingons, and the Romulan. I was exposed > to this game under VSBASIC on a 370/168 under Wylbur at the University > of Chicago Comp Center; I read the entire source, thought "I can do > better than this," and wrote a version in PL/I that would clear the > screen of a VT52, type 8 8x8 sector maps, with a ship's status display > in the center of the screen. > > It ran interactively under TSO. > > Not long after, I was introduced to Adventure on the DEC-20, and a love > affair began that has not ended to this day. Please, please, please tell me you kept the source code? :-) I played the same game with the 8x8 sector map, but ours was compiled on the HP-2000, so I couldn't read the source :-(. Also, I've been told that the original TETRIS was coded with ASCII graphics for a VT52. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From useddec at gmail.com Wed Jul 20 14:23:42 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 14:23:42 -0500 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <4E260555.70900@hachti.de> <4E26950B.335.4A7DB3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: I have a friend whose research group was transferred from Cornell to the U of I. He brought with him a copy of Star Trek written for the VT11, with a lot of options on it. I have a VT11, but only a VR12, and not a VR14 or VR17. I should have the program on a RK05 pack somewhere. Brings back some great memories. I also fell for adventure, and kept a PDP-150 at my parents home so I could play during visits. Paul On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 1:29 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From:Chuck Guzis > Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 8:43 AM > > On 20 Jul 2011 at 10:46, Rod Smallwood wrote: > >>> They had limited functions and were really glass teletypes. >>> Not so the VT100. A really well engineered micro processor based >>> terminal with more functionality than a programmer knew what to do >>> with. > >> For their time, the VT52 terminals were quite a bit more than glass >> TTYs. ?I've used terminals that really were glass TTYs; at most, you >> could erase a screen or (hopefully) a line. ?There were terminals >> that did not implement any sort of scrolling. > >> The VT-52 is pretty much full-featured with cursor positioning, erase >> to end of screen/line, primitive graphics, XON/XOFF flow control and >> a cursor keypad. > >> For its time, not bad and certainly useful--and certainly enough for >> most editors and applications. ?One could have wished for a way to >> display characters wtih attributes (reverse, bold, underlined, etc.), >> but that's a minor quibble. ?Software-controllable scroll-lock would >> have been nice... > > As a matter of fact, I created a "3-D" version of the Star Trek game > for the VT52 (actually a clone, I think a Teleray, but code compatible > with the VT52). ?Even did all the spherical trig to get torpedo tracks > right. > > If you remember, the BASIC version of the game would type out an 8x8 > sector map, showing stars, Klingons, and the Romulan. ?I was exposed > to this game under VSBASIC on a 370/168 under Wylbur at the University > of Chicago Comp Center; I read the entire source, thought "I can do > better than this," and wrote a version in PL/I that would clear the > screen of a VT52, type 8 8x8 sector maps, with a ship's status display > in the center of the screen. > > It ran interactively under TSO. > > Not long after, I was introduced to Adventure on the DEC-20, and a love > affair began that has not ended to this day. > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer > Vulcan, Inc. > 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 > Seattle, WA 98104 > > mailto:RichA at vulcan.com > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jul 20 14:24:01 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 12:24:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara>, <4E260555.70900@hachti.de>, <4E26950B.335.4A7DB3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Jul 2011, Richard wrote: > In article , > Rich Alderson writes: > >> As a matter of fact, I created a "3-D" version of the Star Trek game >> for the VT52 (actually a clone, I think a Teleray, but code compatible >> with the VT52). Even did all the spherical trig to get torpedo tracks >> right. >> >> If you remember, the BASIC version of the game would type out an 8x8 >> sector map, showing stars, Klingons, and the Romulan. I was exposed >> to this game under VSBASIC on a 370/168 under Wylbur at the University >> of Chicago Comp Center; I read the entire source, thought "I can do >> better than this," and wrote a version in PL/I that would clear the >> screen of a VT52, type 8 8x8 sector maps, with a ship's status display >> in the center of the screen. >> >> It ran interactively under TSO. >> >> Not long after, I was introduced to Adventure on the DEC-20, and a love >> affair began that has not ended to this day. > > Please, please, please tell me you kept the source code? :-) > > I played the same game with the 8x8 sector map, but ours was compiled > on the HP-2000, so I couldn't read the source :-(. > > Also, I've been told that the original TETRIS was coded with ASCII > graphics for a VT52. It's not clear what sort of terminal was used, but it is known that the original Tetris was written for the Elektronika 60 (an lsi-11 pdp11 clone). -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jul 20 15:19:16 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 21:19:16 +0100 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara>, <4E260555.70900@hachti.de>, <4E26950B.335.4A7DB3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E273844.9070909@dunnington.plus.com> On 20/07/2011 19:59, Richard wrote: > Rich Alderson writes: > >> As a matter of fact, I created a "3-D" version of the Star Trek game >> for the VT52 (actually a clone, I think a Teleray, but code compatible >> with the VT52). Even did all the spherical trig to get torpedo tracks >> right. > Please, please, please tell me you kept the source code? :-) That's what I was going to say :-) It would be a very worthy addition to my Star Trek page http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/startrek/ It needs a bit of updating, though (my webpage, not Rich's program ;-)) > I played the same game with the 8x8 sector map, but ours was compiled > on the HP-2000, so I couldn't read the source :-(. Mike Mayfield's HP2000 version is on my page (the one online is from a tape. Originally I had a copy from a listing, and there are still some copies of that floating around t'internet, mostly with free typos). The compiled version is probably the same or very similar. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 15:38:58 2011 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 22:38:58 +0200 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara>, <4E260555.70900@hachti.de>, <4E26950B.335.4A7DB3@cclist.sydex.com> <4E273844.9070909@dunnington.plus.com> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara>, <4E260555.70900@hachti.de>, <4E26950B.335.4A7DB3@cclist.sydex.com> <4E273844.9070909@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: From: "Pete Turnbull" Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 10:19 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: VT fixums > On 20/07/2011 19:59, Richard wrote: >> Rich Alderson writes: >> >>> As a matter of fact, I created a "3-D" version of the Star Trek game >>> for the VT52 (actually a clone, I think a Teleray, but code compatible >>> with the VT52). Even did all the spherical trig to get torpedo tracks >>> right. > >> Please, please, please tell me you kept the source code? :-) > > That's what I was going to say :-) It would be a very worthy addition to > my Star Trek page http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/startrek/ > It needs a bit of updating, though (my webpage, not Rich's program ;-)) > >> I played the same game with the 8x8 sector map, but ours was compiled >> on the HP-2000, so I couldn't read the source :-(. > > Mike Mayfield's HP2000 version is on my page (the one online is from a > tape. Originally I had a copy from a listing, and there are still some > copies of that floating around t'internet, mostly with free typos). The > compiled version is probably the same or very similar. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York Ditto! I'd love to get that source code too, but if it appears on Pete's page, that would be great. BTW Pete, that StarTrek page is already a lot bigger than the last time I had a look at it. Sure need to read it again! I seem to remember to have a StarTrek game with the famous 8x8 plot written in 6800 (or was it 6809?) assembler. I have the original manual with the source code listing, but I did scan that while I worked at Oc? :-) Should I start looking for it on my (off-line) backup disk? greetz, - Henk. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jul 20 16:22:29 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 15:22:29 -0600 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara>, <4E260555.70900@hachti.de>, <4E26950B.335.4A7DB3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article , David Griffith writes: > On Wed, 20 Jul 2011, Richard wrote: > > Also, I've been told that the original TETRIS was coded with ASCII > > graphics for a VT52. > > It's not clear what sort of terminal was used, but it is known that the > original Tetris was written for the Elektronika 60 (an lsi-11 pdp11 > clone). I think this is the video I watched that made me think VT-52: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jul 20 16:22:30 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 22:22:30 +0100 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara>, <4E260555.70900@hachti.de>, <4E26950B.335.4A7DB3@cclist.sydex.com> <4E273844.9070909@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4E274716.3070202@dunnington.plus.com> On 20/07/2011 21:38, Henk Gooijen wrote: > Ditto! I'd love to get that source code too, but if it appears on Pete's > page, > that would be great. BTW Pete, that StarTrek page is already a lot bigger > than the last time I had a look at it. I haven't updated it in over five years! > I seem to remember to have a StarTrek game with the famous 8x8 plot > written in 6800 (or was it 6809?) assembler. I have the original manual > with the source code listing, but I did scan that while I worked at Oc? :-) > Should I start looking for it on my (off-line) backup disk? Yes please :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 20 16:31:45 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 22:31:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Alphaserver 1000A power supply shutting down In-Reply-To: <01O3U5HX6FGK003DPN@beyondthepale.ie> from "Peter Coghlan" at Jul 19, 11 03:45:33 pm Message-ID: > I doubt a crowbar circuit is involved. A crowbar tends > to be used to blow a fuse or trip a mechanical circuit > breaker, not to trip an electronic overcurrent protection. > A single fault could both result in an overvoltage and a > failure to respond to an overcurrent condition. Activating > a crowbar circuit and relying on the overcurrent protection to > cut the power in that situation could result in a big mess. Actually, in my experience, a crowbar circuit is often used on a PSU with electronic overcurrent protection, and said protectiuon should operate if the crowbar fires due to an overvotlage. However, there's a second line of overcurrent protection (e.g. a fuse) that will operate if the electronic protection doesn;t (e.g. becasue the PSU control circuitry is totally malfunctioning). [There's a well-knwon PSU design known as a Boschert 2-stage. The basic idea is that the recrified/smoothed mains (about 350V DC) is brought down to 150V by a non-isolated swtiching regulator. This feeds a free-running push-pull oscilaaotr driving the chopper transfortmer. The outputs from that are rectified and feed the load. One otuput is fed back to the control circuit of the 150V regualtor, and cuases its output votlage to be adjusted so that the osiclator/chopper transformr produce the right output votltages. There's an current sense circuit which monitors the current drawn my the oscillator circuit which alos operates on the control circuit of the 150V regulator. And a crowbar circuit on the outputs which shorts one of thm to ground if an output voltage rises too high. The extra current drrawn by the osciallotr in this condition should then cause th e150V regualtotr to be shut down. Now for th problem. There;s a common failure mode. It starts like this : The chopper transitor in thr 15)V regualtor goes short circuit The output of this regulator jumps to 350V. All the ouptus of the PSU more than double as a result The crowbar first, shorting an output to ground This causes the overcurrent proteciton circuit to trip, removing the drive from the 150V regualtor transistor. Since that transistor is shorted, remvoing the drvie doesn't do a darn thing. The oscilator is working itno a shorted load. Bot its transistors short too The load o nthe rectivfied mains is now the shorted transsitors, some windings with a vry low DC resitance, and the current sense resistor. The latter burns out Mains now appears across a small-signal transitor which is blwon off the PCB. The chopper control IC, other small components and even some PCB tracks generally fail.] > > > > >Since over voltage can fry a lot of expensive > >kit, they use a crowbar to pop a fuse or breaker, > >rather than risk more damage. I'll add that even in the case I've jsut described, rebuilding the PSU is a lot cheaper and less work than replacing every logic IC in the machine! > > > > Yes. However, there is no fuse blowing or breaker > being tripped in this case, just the power supply > shutting down. Well, if there's a fault with the votlage feedback loop (only), or a the refrence votlage is unstable or something, it's quite possibl for th ecrowbar to rip and the PSU to shut down without any other damage. > I'm not sure what all the voltages are supposed to > be but the main ones appear to be correct. I've also > tried a substitute power supply with identical results. > It would be very unlikely that the two power supplies > are both producing overvoltage conditions intermittently. Unless the PSU senses the voltage at the load to rliminate the votlage drop in the wiring/connectors and this sense line is intermitant. So that th PSU thinks it's not producing enough votlage nad is thus increasing its ouput to try ot get the voltage o nthe sense wire high enough, and then the crowbar trips. Sensible PSUs have the sense lines conencted to the outputs via resistors (around 100 Ohms) so that if th esense line does go open-circuit, the output voltage doesn't rise too much. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 20 16:59:34 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 22:59:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Jul 20, 11 10:48:10 am Message-ID: > > Inside the 50 and 52 were very much television technology. The boards were > > large, single sided, full of wire links and made from a cheap paper based I often wondered why they did that. DEC had been making double-sided PCBs for years before the VT50 seires, and I can't believe fitting all those links was cost-effective. Incidentally, the graphics board i na VT55 is a fibreglass PCB. At least double sided, may well have internal power and groudn planes. > > PCB. (Phenolic?) > > Did the VT5x have a microprocessor or was it discrete logic? Ther is no microprocesor chip in a VT5x. The logic is mostly TTL with some small PROMs, you can regard it either as a complex state machine or a very limited special-purpose processor, whichever you like. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 20 16:43:36 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 22:43:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <4E260448.9060803@hachti.de> from "Philipp Hachtmann" at Jul 20, 11 00:25:12 am Message-ID: > > Am 15.07.2011 22:55, schrieb Tony Duell: > > > I've tried 'cat myfile> /dev/tty1' but I didn't get that result :-) > Of course, you did it wrong: 'cat cat > /dev/tty1' will do the job! That didn't work either. And nor did 'cat muon > /dev/tty1'. [ Muon is the name of the cat who currently lives with me. You cna choose one of the following explanations for the name : He's a ginger cat, so hr's amber in colour The ancient Greek word for 'amber' is 'Elektron' This suggests the particle But hte cat is rather heavy, and a heavy electron is a muon or He mews. On and on an on.] -tony From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jul 20 18:21:32 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 16:21:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Paging William Donzelli Message-ID: William Donzelli, I've tried emailing you a few times about those VT220s that you may be getting rid of. Please respond. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Jul 20 18:30:49 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 16:30:49 -0700 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <4E273844.9070909@dunnington.plus.com> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara>, <4E260555.70900@hachti.de>, <4E26950B.335.4A7DB3@cclist.sydex.com> <4E273844.9070909@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: From: Pete Turnbull Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 1:19 PM > On 20/07/2011 19:59, Richard wrote: >> Rich Alderson writes: >>> As a matter of fact, I created a "3-D" version of the Star Trek >>> game for the VT52 (actually a clone, I think a Teleray, but code >>> compatible with the VT52). Even did all the spherical trig to get >>> torpedo tracks right. >> Please, please, please tell me you kept the source code? :-) > That's what I was going to say :-) It would be a very worthy addition > to my Star Trek page http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/startrek/ > It needs a bit of updating, though (my webpage, not Rich's program ;-)) I'm sure that I have the source code on a tape in my storage locker. (After all, I still have card decks from my undergraduate days about four years earlier. :-) I just have to find a spherical dual neuter pronoun first.[1] Rich [1] Little linguist humour, there. Very little, probably. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jul 20 18:51:24 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 16:51:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Found a Linux chip burner Message-ID: Part of my semi-regular castabouts, I found that Batronix (http://www.batronix.com/) makes chip burners with Linux software. Has anyone here used their products? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jul 20 19:26:43 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 17:26:43 -0700 Subject: Found a Linux chip burner In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E277243.2060403@bitsavers.org> On 7/20/11 4:51 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > Part of my semi-regular castabouts, I found that Batronix (http://www.batronix.com/) makes chip burners with Linux software. They appear to just be a reseller. Which model claimed Linux support From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jul 20 19:45:25 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 17:45:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Found a Linux chip burner In-Reply-To: <4E277243.2060403@bitsavers.org> References: <4E277243.2060403@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Jul 2011, Al Kossow wrote: > On 7/20/11 4:51 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> >> Part of my semi-regular castabouts, I found that Batronix >> (http://www.batronix.com/) makes chip burners with Linux software. > > They appear to just be a reseller. Which model claimed Linux support http://www.batronix.com/shop/software/prog-express/download.html is where the software is. "Note: The beta versions for Linux and Mac are currently supporting following programming peripheral devices: BX32 Batupo, BX32P Barlino, BX40 Bagero, BX48 Batego" They seem nice, but only the most expensive one will do GALs and microcontrollers. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 20 20:06:52 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 18:06:52 -0700 Subject: Alphaserver 1000A power supply shutting down In-Reply-To: References: <01O3U5HX6FGK003DPN@beyondthepale.ie> from "Peter Coghlan" at Jul 19, 11 03:45:33 pm, Message-ID: <4E27193C.15254.24EDBE3@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Jul 2011 at 22:31, Tony Duell wrote: > Actually, in my experience, a crowbar circuit is often used on a PSU > with electronic overcurrent protection, and said protectiuon should > operate if the crowbar fires due to an overvotlage. However, there's a > second line of overcurrent protection (e.g. a fuse) that will operate > if the electronic protection doesn;t (e.g. becasue the PSU control > circuitry is totally malfunctioning). I've got a couple of linear supplies that use just that design--an SCR crowbar driven by a comparator following a LM723 regulator stage-- the 723 has overcurrent protection, so it all hangs together. (and there is a fuse on the primary of the transformer as well) --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jul 20 20:42:54 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 21:42:54 -0400 Subject: Paging William Donzelli In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > William Donzelli, I've tried emailing you a few times about those VT220s > that you may be getting rid of. ?Please respond. I have not gotten around to the terminal yet. -- Will From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu Jul 21 02:06:11 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 08:06:11 +0100 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: <4E26950B.335.4A7DB3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara>, <4E260555.70900@hachti.de>, <4E26950B.335.4A7DB3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: The 50/52 where originally considered to be a component in a DEC system. The VT100 was designed to be sold to and did sell to a wider marketplace. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: 20 July 2011 16:43 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: VT fixums On 20 Jul 2011 at 10:46, Rod Smallwood wrote: > They had limited functions and were really glass teletypes. > Not so the VT100. A really well engineered micro processor based > terminal with more functionality than a programmer knew what to do > with. For their time, the VT52 terminals were quite a bit more than glass TTYs. I've used terminals that really were glass TTYs; at most, you could erase a screen or (hopefully) a line. There were terminals that did not implement any sort of scrolling. The VT-52 is pretty much full-featured with cursor positioning, erase to end of screen/line, primitive graphics, XON/XOFF flow control and a cursor keypad. For its time, not bad and certainly useful--and certainly enough for most editors and applications. One could have wished for a way to display characters wtih attributes (reverse, bold, underlined, etc.), but that's a minor quibble. Software-controllable scroll-lock would have been nice... But there were far less-capable terminals at the time. The VT52 was one of the terminals that moved the interactive mindset away from the teletype meme. --Chuck From hachti at hachti.de Thu Jul 21 05:08:22 2011 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 12:08:22 +0200 Subject: DDP-516 manuals on eBay Message-ID: <4E27FA96.4060505@hachti.de> Hi, sorry for the spam, but.... There are some DDP-516 manuals on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230647266921 I am trying to get those... Because I don't have the manuals for my own real DDP-516 (I mostly use PDFs and have some borrowed). So if anybody of this list is bidding on it - please have some mercy! Kind regards, Philipp From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jul 21 12:23:38 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 10:23:38 -0700 Subject: Wicat WS-150 In-Reply-To: <4E27FA96.4060505@hachti.de> References: <4E27FA96.4060505@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4E28609A.3080503@bitsavers.org> Picked up the main unit w/o keyboard at Weird Stuff a couple of days ago so I'm looking for a keyboard, docs and sw (I know, fat chance). Dumped the firmware and scanned the PCBs. Looks like one of the bipolar proms is dead on the CPU, and someone reversed the two connectors on bottom of the graphics boards. This was one of the systems I really wanted in the early 80's. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/wicat/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 21 13:24:31 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 19:24:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Alphaserver 1000A power supply shutting down In-Reply-To: <4E27193C.15254.24EDBE3@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 20, 11 06:06:52 pm Message-ID: > > On 20 Jul 2011 at 22:31, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Actually, in my experience, a crowbar circuit is often used on a PSU > > with electronic overcurrent protection, and said protectiuon should > > operate if the crowbar fires due to an overvotlage. However, there's a > > second line of overcurrent protection (e.g. a fuse) that will operate > > if the electronic protection doesn;t (e.g. becasue the PSU control > > circuitry is totally malfunctioning). > > I've got a couple of linear supplies that use just that design--an > SCR crowbar driven by a comparator following a LM723 regulator stage-- > the 723 has overcurrent protection, so it all hangs together. > > (and there is a fuse on the primary of the transformer as well) The HP9800 machines that I lkeep on going on about, and some of their periphearlas are like that. They use 723s either as linear or switching regulator controllers and have crowbars on the outputs. They do use the current limiting circuitry of the 723, and if that doesn't help there's a mains fuse. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jul 21 14:04:52 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 15:04:52 -0400 Subject: Wicat WS-150 In-Reply-To: <4E28609A.3080503@bitsavers.org> References: <4E27FA96.4060505@hachti.de> <4E28609A.3080503@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E287854.4030904@neurotica.com> On 07/21/2011 01:23 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > Picked up the main unit w/o keyboard at Weird Stuff a couple of days ago > so I'm looking for a keyboard, docs and sw (I know, fat chance). > > Dumped the firmware and scanned the PCBs. Looks like one of the bipolar > proms is dead on the CPU, and someone reversed the two connectors on > bottom of the graphics boards. > > This was one of the systems I really wanted in the early 80's. > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/wicat/ Ooooh, Z8000 on the graphics controller! Seems like a really neat system! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 14:16:12 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 14:16:12 -0500 Subject: Northern Telecom DisplayPhone? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 3:35 PM, Martin Goldberg wrote: > Hoping someone from the list can help, I'm trying to track down a > Northern Telecom DisplayPhone for the archive. > > http://dxiconsulting.com/images/northern%20telecom%20displayphone%20circa%201984-2%20small.jpg > > > Actually had one years ago as a kid, and what I used for BBS'ing in > the early 80's. ?So it holds sentimental value besides archival. Very cool - put me on the list for the second one you find :) I've got an similar model from AT&T (with squishy touchscreen) and a Rolm one that I can't get to talk to anything (seems to be custom ROMs to talk to one of their PBXs.) And extra points for using "whatever was at hand" for BBSing! -- jht From innfoclassics at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 14:49:32 2011 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 12:49:32 -0700 Subject: ebay: Tektronix 8310 microprocessor development unit (Goldendale, WA) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > It has all the probes and manuals, which is more than is usually offered > for these things on ebay. ?Looks a little dusty/dirty, but otherwise appears > to be in working order. > > Seller wants $10 for it, which is probably less than scrap value. > > About 2 hrs from Portland, OR. I am bidding as I can drive there and pick it up. The seller also has two IBM PC Jrs with regular keyboards, and IBM XT, CGA monitor and an HP 1610 Logic analyzer also, which I may bid on. Pax -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From innfoclassics at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 14:55:45 2011 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 12:55:45 -0700 Subject: Wicat WS-150 In-Reply-To: <4E28609A.3080503@bitsavers.org> References: <4E27FA96.4060505@hachti.de> <4E28609A.3080503@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > so I'm looking for a keyboard, docs and sw (I know, fat chance). I have a WyCat keyboard missing a couple of keys, but it looks more IBM PCish rather than Vt100ish. I think it may be for a later system. I believe it is a DIN 5 plug like the IBM PC. I will go look it up...it is in the attic. Pax -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jul 21 15:12:47 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 13:12:47 -0700 Subject: Wicat WS-150 In-Reply-To: References: <4E27FA96.4060505@hachti.de> <4E28609A.3080503@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E28883F.60307@bitsavers.org> On 7/21/11 12:55 PM, Paxton Hoag wrote: > I think it may be for a later system. I believe it is a DIN 5 plug > like the IBM PC. I will go look it up...it is in the attic. > The WS-150 keyboard has a phone style connector and looks like a Keytronics serial VT100 keyboard. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Jul 21 16:34:34 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 22:34:34 +0100 Subject: What is Fast Diagnostic Mode? Message-ID: <027901cc47ed$fd95b590$f8c120b0$@ntlworld.com> I got given a third party (Phillips) 32MB module for my VAX 4000-200 recently. I have just installed it. While it seems to work I get this from the console: >>>sh mem Memory 0: 00000000 to 00FFFFFF, 16MB, 0 bad pages Memory 1: 01000000 to 01FFFFFF, 16MB, 0 bad pages -- FDM (fast diagnostic mode) not working Memory 2: 02000000 to 02FFFFFF, 16MB, 0 bad pages -- FDM (fast diagnostic mode) not working Total of 48MB, 0 bad pages, 120 reserved pages >>> What is FDM exactly? I suppose it is a feature that is not present on this board as it is 3rd party, but I wonder if it can have any impact beyond affecting diagnostics? Thanks Rob From CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie Thu Jul 21 16:16:56 2011 From: CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 22:16:56 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Alphaserver 1000A power supply shutting down Message-ID: <01O3XAKC0L5I003FML@beyondthepale.ie> >> >> On 20 Jul 2011 at 22:31, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> > Actually, in my experience, a crowbar circuit is often used on a PSU >> > with electronic overcurrent protection, and said protectiuon should >> > operate if the crowbar fires due to an overvotlage. However, there's a >> > second line of overcurrent protection (e.g. a fuse) that will operate >> > if the electronic protection doesn;t (e.g. becasue the PSU control >> > circuitry is totally malfunctioning). >> >> I've got a couple of linear supplies that use just that design--an >> SCR crowbar driven by a comparator following a LM723 regulator stage-- >> the 723 has overcurrent protection, so it all hangs together. >> >> (and there is a fuse on the primary of the transformer as well) > >The HP9800 machines that I lkeep on going on about, and some of their >periphearlas are like that. They use 723s either as linear or switching >regulator controllers and have crowbars on the outputs. They do use the >current limiting circuitry of the 723, and if that doesn't help there's a >mains fuse. > Thinking about it some more, I guess it makes sense to crowbar the output that is rising and going to cause damage rather than to crowbar something nearer the input and maybe end up having to wait longer for reservoir capacitors to discharge before the output voltage drops, even if there may be more damage in the power supply in some cases. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie Thu Jul 21 16:29:27 2011 From: CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 22:29:27 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Alphaserver 1000A power supply shutting down In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Tue, 19 Jul 2011 19:15:49 +0100 (BST)" References: <01O3T8UZBG900023ED@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01O3XC68KLZ8003FMR@beyondthepale.ie> > >I think I'd stick a a logic probe on the output of each section of that >339 in turn and see if you get any activity when you unplug or stall a >fan. Of coruse we dont yet know that he genuine shutdowns are caused by a >fan problem. But I guess you could also montiro the outpus fo the 339 >when a real shut-down occurs. > It's a surface mount chip with tiny pins and it's buried under a bunch of wires going to the power supply. I think I'll try to explore other avenues first. > >> likely temperature sensor. >> >> The manual mentions a couple of jumpers which it says can be set to generate >> a machine check rather than shutting off the power when there is a fan fault >> or temperature fault. This looks worth a try now that I know the fan monitoring > >I wonder what these jumpers are actually connected to... > I tried changing over the two jumpers. It's been running now for several hours without either shutting down or writing anything interesting to the error log. Unfortunately I forgot to bypass the interlock so that I could take the cover off and unplug a fan to see what happens without having to switch off the machine and start again. > >>Why do I wish there were scheamtics of this darn thing available... > That would be nice. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 19:45:33 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 17:45:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: is this the first Pentium box IBM made? Message-ID: <1311295533.3034.YahooMailClassic@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> something tells me no, but I just thought I'd ask. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180697999162&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT item # is embedded in link From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 19:52:47 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 17:52:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone have an HP 41* surplus to their needs? Message-ID: <1311295967.40680.YahooMailClassic@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> on the cheap side. It doesn't have to work. E-mail me directly. Thanks. From oe5ewl at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 02:22:48 2011 From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 09:22:48 +0200 Subject: New in collection: HP-85a Message-ID: Hi folks, today I got a HP-85a for my collection (got it from a workmate whose father died recently). It's in good physical and optical condition, very little signs of use. With the machine came 2 tape carts, one 16k mem-board, a spare roll of thermal paper, the user manual and a BIG carrying-case for the machine and the parts. After a quick check (psu) I turned the whole thing on and - whoopee, it's behaving like as it was new :D Sorry for the spam, but I wanted to share my happyness. Regards, Wolfgang -- Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL Operating System Collector Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com Homepage: www.eichberger.org From vintagecoder at aol.com Fri Jul 22 02:47:37 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 07:47:37 +0000 Subject: New in collection: HP-85a Message-ID: <2059363975-1311320859-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1303704474-@b2.c1.bise3.blackberry> Congrats, Wolfgang! I love old HP gear, they were some of the best made stuff ever. I still have an HP-67 lying around somewhere. Looks like you got a great machine! From oe5ewl at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 03:07:57 2011 From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 10:07:57 +0200 Subject: New in collection: HP-85a In-Reply-To: <2059363975-1311320859-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1303704474-@b2.c1.bise3.blackberry> References: <2059363975-1311320859-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1303704474-@b2.c1.bise3.blackberry> Message-ID: You're right, this seems to be a neat little machine (we can call it wife and living room-compatible hi). The only flaw I discovered so far is that the capstan-rubber-coating turned into sticky goo. Will have to fix that (with some latex-hose from my aquarium or some of these heat-shrink-hoses; eventually I can manage do fabricate a spare-part on my lathe at work - deep frozen rubber can be drilled etc. with a bit of luck). The only thing this particular machine lacks is some sort of communication to the rest of the world. I hope I can get a HP/IB, Serial or other comms module some time.... Regards, Wolfgang PS: Pictures will follow. -- Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL Operating System Collector Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com Homepage: www.eichberger.org 2011/7/22 Vintage Coder > Congrats, Wolfgang! I love old HP gear, they were some of the best made > stuff ever. I still have an HP-67 lying around somewhere. Looks like you got > a great machine! > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 22 03:31:28 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 01:31:28 -0700 Subject: is this the first Pentium box IBM made? In-Reply-To: <1311295533.3034.YahooMailClassic@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <1311295533.3034.YahooMailClassic@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E28D2F0.15034.395C1DC@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Jul 2011 at 17:45, Chris M wrote: > something tells me no, but I just thought I'd ask. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180697999162&ssPage > Name=STRK:MESELX:IT > > item # is embedded in link Nope, the 330 series with a P60 were introduced in November 1994: http://www.lenovo.com/psref/pdf/dwbook.pdf The P75 versions weren't introduced until October 1995. http://www.lenovo.com/psref/pdf/dwbook.pdf --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jul 22 03:34:38 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 02:34:38 -0600 Subject: Northern Telecom DisplayPhone? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E29361E.30101@brouhaha.com> Jason T wrote: > I've > got an similar model from AT&T (with squishy touchscreen) The AT&T 510a, made by Convergent? From terry at webweavers.co.nz Fri Jul 22 05:59:19 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 22:59:19 +1200 Subject: New in collection: HP-85a References: Message-ID: Well done Wolfgang, I've been trying to help a guy here in New Zealand with one with my limited technical knowledge (see: http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=373 ) It seems he has pretty limited electronics skills though and it may be a bridge too far. Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wolfgang Eichberger" To: Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 7:22 PM Subject: New in collection: HP-85a > Hi folks, > > today I got a HP-85a for my collection (got it from a workmate whose > father > died recently). It's in good physical and optical condition, very little > signs of use. With the machine came 2 tape carts, one 16k mem-board, a > spare > roll of thermal paper, the user manual and a BIG carrying-case for the > machine and the parts. After a quick check (psu) I turned the whole thing > on > and - whoopee, it's behaving like as it was new :D > > Sorry for the spam, but I wanted to share my happyness. > > Regards, > Wolfgang > > > > -- > Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL > Operating System Collector > Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com > Homepage: www.eichberger.org > From oe5ewl at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 09:41:53 2011 From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 16:41:53 +0200 Subject: New in collection: HP-85a In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I read the posts but had no time to study the schematics. At the moment my knowledge about the HP Series 8x is very basic. First I have to repair my capstan to load some tapes. Next will be to find a HPIB/GPIB expansion-board and some sort of disk drive. There are a couple of interesting plotters on ebay, but all of them over the pond in USA and shipping would be way to expensive. It'd surely be fun to control some of my lab-instruments with the '85 as some of them have HPIB built in. -- Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL Operating System Collector Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com Homepage: www.eichberger.org 2011/7/22 terry stewart > Well done Wolfgang, > > I've been trying to help a guy here in New Zealand with one with my limited > technical knowledge (see: > http://www.classic-computers.**org.nz/forums/viewtopic.php?f=**11&t=373) > > It seems he has pretty limited electronics skills though and it may be a > bridge too far. > > Terry > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wolfgang Eichberger" > > To: > Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 7:22 PM > Subject: New in collection: HP-85a > > > > Hi folks, >> >> today I got a HP-85a for my collection (got it from a workmate whose >> father >> died recently). It's in good physical and optical condition, very little >> signs of use. With the machine came 2 tape carts, one 16k mem-board, a >> spare >> roll of thermal paper, the user manual and a BIG carrying-case for the >> machine and the parts. After a quick check (psu) I turned the whole thing >> on >> and - whoopee, it's behaving like as it was new :D >> >> Sorry for the spam, but I wanted to share my happyness. >> >> Regards, >> Wolfgang >> >> >> >> -- >> Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL >> Operating System Collector >> Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com >> Homepage: www.eichberger.org >> >> > From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Jul 22 12:08:22 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 19:08:22 +0200 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants Message-ID: <20110722190822.d6c9c499.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Hi. Got a PDP-11/34 today. It came with a RK05, a Tektronix 4012 + hard copy unit and a Western Peripherals TC-130 9 track tape controller. Unfortunately I had to leave the actual tape drive behind. No space left on /dev/car and way to heavy for my herniated intervertebral disk... The tape drive was some kind of Cipher 800/1600 BPI drive. There was printed "MOD NO 0920640-1250U" on it. I couldn't find anything usefull on the net with this information. Now the problem: I own a Cipher 880 9 track tape with Pertec interface. It works well on my QBus VAXen and the PDP-11/73. So I am used to the 2 x 50 pin cables / connectors found along the Pertec interface. But the TC-130 tape controller has one 50 pin cable labeled "control", a 26 pin cable labeled "read" and a 26 pin cable labeled "write". There are two connector adapters to adapt the 26 pin cables to 36 pin connectors. I found the TC-130 manual on bitsavers. From a quick look at the signal names the interface of the TC-130 is not Pertec. But what else? Is there any way to connect the TC-130 to my Cipher 880? -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Jul 22 12:31:18 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 13:31:18 -0400 Subject: Wicat WS-150 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Picked up the main unit w/o keyboard at Weird Stuff a couple of days ago > so I'm looking for a keyboard, docs and sw (I know, fat chance). By the early 90's the Wicat company I knew was selling flight simulators. I don't think the flight simulators were running on Wicat hardware but don't really know. Don't know if the Wicat of the 90's was the same as the Wicat of the 80's. The cool flight simulators in the 80's were often using E&S stuff inside. And the Brochure you point out looks like it may have been aiming at a similar market. Tim. From innfoclassics at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 12:34:16 2011 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 10:34:16 -0700 Subject: is this the first Pentium box IBM made? In-Reply-To: <1311295533.3034.YahooMailClassic@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <1311295533.3034.YahooMailClassic@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > something tells me no, but I just thought I'd ask. I think the Pentium 60 on the original intel 386 MB in a Intel 302 case was the first one saw, maybe 1993. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jul 22 12:36:36 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 11:36:36 -0600 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: <20110722190822.d6c9c499.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20110722190822.d6c9c499.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: In article <20110722190822.d6c9c499.jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, Jochen Kunz writes: > Got a PDP-11/34 today. It came with a RK05, a Tektronix 4012 + hard > copy unit and a Western Peripherals TC-130 9 track tape controller. Niiiice. The 4012 is the 4010 with lower case and the thumbwheels for graphic input cursor positioning. The hardcopy unit isn't of much use as the paper is unobtainium and has a limited shelf life anyway. I've got an Arduino project in the works to create a compatible replacement for the hardcopy unit though. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 22 12:59:05 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 10:59:05 -0700 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: <20110722190822.d6c9c499.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20110722190822.d6c9c499.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4E29BA69.2060003@bitsavers.org> On 7/22/11 10:08 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > Hi. > > Is there any way to connect the TC-130 to my Cipher 880? Only if it has a separate formatter board. The three connector interface is unformatted. control cable, and 7 or 9 bits of data to the read amps and write circuitry. The adapter cables were necessary because each vendor (Pertec, Kennedy, CDC) had slightly different connectors/pinouts. You also need to match the transport speed with an unformatted interface. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 22 13:03:26 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 11:03:26 -0700 Subject: Wicat WS-150 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E29BB6E.3030409@bitsavers.org> On 7/22/11 10:31 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > Brochure you point out looks like it may have been aiming at a similar market. > They were desktop workstation/server folks selling Unix and their own VMS-Like OS. The integrated graphics was more high-end than the people selling SUN workstation CPU's, but not as fancy as Valid or CadLink/CimLink. I turned up one of the later CimLink CPU boards on eBay a couple weeks ago. Don't know if I'll bother with the 29116 graphics board he had also listed. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Jul 22 14:37:20 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 21:37:20 +0200 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: <4E29BA69.2060003@bitsavers.org> References: <20110722190822.d6c9c499.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4E29BA69.2060003@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20110722213720.755479cd.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 22 Jul 2011 10:59:05 -0700 Al Kossow wrote: > > Is there any way to connect the TC-130 to my Cipher 880? > Only if it has a separate formatter board. IIRC the Cipher 880 has a single large PCB that integrates everything. > The three connector interface is unformatted. Ahh, OK. That is the difference: formatted vs. unformatted. > control cable, and 7 or 9 bits of > data to the read amps and write circuitry. So this is something like the difference from a MFM/RLL disk to an ESDI disk. A unformatted interface carries the raw signals from / to the heads. A formatted interface carries already decoded bits / the bits are encoded by the formater in the drive. > You also need to match the transport speed with an unformatted > interface. There are jumpers / DIP switches in the TC-130 to set the speed. OK. So, effectively I have to get a different UniBus to formated Pertec tape controller. Modifying the Cipher 880 is no option. I want to use it on my VAXen and the PDP-11/73. I have only formated Pertec interfaces for those machines. And I need a RL11 to connect my RL02 drive to the /34... -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jul 22 14:47:20 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 15:47:20 -0400 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: <20110722190822.d6c9c499.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20110722190822.d6c9c499.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4E29D3C8.9020704@neurotica.com> On 07/22/2011 01:08 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > Got a PDP-11/34 today. It came with a RK05, a Tektronix 4012 + hard > copy unit and a Western Peripherals TC-130 9 track tape controller. > Unfortunately I had to leave the actual tape drive behind. No space > left on /dev/car and way to heavy for my herniated intervertebral > disk... Fantastic haul! Can you go back with help for the tape drive? > Now the problem: I own a Cipher 880 9 track tape with Pertec interface. > It works well on my QBus VAXen and the PDP-11/73. So I am used to the > 2 x 50 pin cables / connectors found along the Pertec interface. But > the TC-130 tape controller has one 50 pin cable labeled "control", a 26 > pin cable labeled "read" and a 26 pin cable labeled "write". There are > two connector adapters to adapt the 26 pin cables to 36 pin connectors. > I found the TC-130 manual on bitsavers. From a quick look at the signal > names the interface of the TC-130 is not Pertec. But what else? > Is there any way to connect the TC-130 to my Cipher 880? There are two types of "Pertec" tape interface: Formatted and unformatted. The formatted interface has two connectors, and the unformatted interface is the three-connector control/read/write interface. Your formatted-interface F880 won't be able to connect to the TC-130. More motivation to go back for that tape drive! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From drb at msu.edu Fri Jul 22 14:58:23 2011 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 15:58:23 -0400 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: (Your message of Fri, 22 Jul 2011 15:47:20 EDT.) <4E29D3C8.9020704@neurotica.com> References: <4E29D3C8.9020704@neurotica.com> <20110722190822.d6c9c499.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20110722195823.4E2BD32662B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > There are two types of "Pertec" tape interface: Formatted and > unformatted. The formatted interface has two connectors, and the > unformatted interface is the three-connector control/read/write > interface. Your formatted-interface F880 won't be able to connect to > the TC-130. > More motivation to go back for that tape drive! Or find a formatter. The used to exist, because Prime originally sold the Kennedy 9100 drives that way, until they built a smarter tape controller. De From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 22 14:46:11 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 20:46:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: New in collection: HP-85a In-Reply-To: <2059363975-1311320859-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1303704474-@b2.c1.bise3.blackberry> from "Vintage Coder" at Jul 22, 11 07:47:37 am Message-ID: > > Congrats, Wolfgang! I love old HP gear, they were some of the best > made stuff ever. I still have an HP-67 lying around somewhere. Looks > like you got a great machine! > Yes, the old HP machiens are very well designed, well made mechanically, and generally work well even after many years. MY HP9800 series machines are gettign on for 40 years old, and I've only had to replace 1 or 2 ICs in each of them and do the obvious mechancial repairs (rubber rollers, etc). And the hP67 is a true classic calculator [1]. I still use mine a lot. [1] The 'classic series' HP handheld calcualtors are things like the HP35, 45, 55, 65, 70, 80. The HP67 is in a simialr case to these and some claim it's a memebr of that family. But to me it's not. I judge a machine by what's inside. To me the 'classic series' are those usign thr 'Arithmetic and Registers' and 'Control and Timing' ICs for the processor, thr HP67 on the other hand uses an ACT (Arithmetic, Control and Timing) single-chip CPU, and thus I class the Hp67 in the Woodstock family along with the HP21, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 22 14:51:51 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 20:51:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: New in collection: HP-85a In-Reply-To: from "Wolfgang Eichberger" at Jul 22, 11 10:07:57 am Message-ID: > > The only flaw I discovered so far is that the capstan-rubber-coating turned > into sticky goo. Will have to fix that (with some latex-hose from my Yes, this is a common problem... You might take a loog at http://www.voidware.com/. On that site, Hugh (a friend of mine and a fellow HPCC member) shows how he fixed his HP85 capstan using heatshrink. > aquarium or some of these heat-shrink-hoses; eventually I can manage do > fabricate a spare-part on my lathe at work - deep frozen rubber can be > drilled etc. with a bit of luck). I think you want to get it to about dry-ice temperature. Too cold (liquid nitrogent, for example), and it shatters like glass. > > The only thing this particular machine lacks is some sort of communication > to the rest of the world. I hope I can get a HP/IB, Serial or other comms > module some time.... HPIB and serial modules are farily common on E-bay (the others, the GPIO (parallel), HPIL etc are harder to find). The problem is thst you need an I/O ROM module, which fits into a 'ROM Drawer' (which then goesinto the back of the HP85). The ROM Drawer is not too hard to find, but ROM modules tend to be. And they are special HP custom ROM chips which diredtly conect to the odd buss of the hP85, so you can't program an image into an EPROM and jut plug that in. Interfacing an EPROM to an HP85 is possibly, but it's fair amount of work. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 22 14:34:06 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 20:34:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: Alphaserver 1000A power supply shutting down In-Reply-To: <01O3XAKC0L5I003FML@beyondthepale.ie> from "Peter Coghlan" at Jul 21, 11 10:16:56 pm Message-ID: > Thinking about it some more, I guess it makes sense to crowbar the output > that is rising and going to cause damage rather than to crowbar something > nearer the input and maybe end up having to wait longer for reservoir > capacitors to discharge before the output voltage drops, even if there may > be more damage in the power supply in some cases. It depends. I'v ecertainyl seen linear PSUs where the crowbar SCR is conencted acros the smoothing capacitor on the input side of the regualtors (of course it's trigged by an overvoltage on the output line). And it's common in alrge SMPSUs for the crowabar SCR to be on one of the 'lesser' outputs. It'll shut the supply down just ans well as if it were on the main output and it doens't have to handle as much current. But yes, in gnral, crowbars operate on the principle that the PSU needs repairing anyway, and a little more damage isn't too seruous, wherehas having to replace large numbers of logic chips is. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 22 14:39:24 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 20:39:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: New in collection: HP-85a In-Reply-To: from "Wolfgang Eichberger" at Jul 22, 11 09:22:48 am Message-ID: > > Hi folks, > > today I got a HP-85a for my collection (got it from a workmate whose father > died recently). It's in good physical and optical condition, very little > signs of use. With the machine came 2 tape carts, one 16k mem-board, a spare > roll of thermal paper, the user manual and a BIG carrying-case for the > machine and the parts. After a quick check (psu) I turned the whole thing on > and - whoopee, it's behaving like as it was new :D Nice find.... The HP80 series are actually my least favourite of the classic HP desktops (too much custom silicon for my taste), but they're still fine machines. I have quite a few... I asusme you've found http://www.hpmuseum.net/ for manuals. There's a lot of interesting stuff there. > Sorry for the spam, but I wanted to share my happyness. Why is this spam/ In what sense is the HP85 nto a classic computer? -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jul 22 15:02:24 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 16:02:24 -0400 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: <20110722195823.4E2BD32662B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <4E29D3C8.9020704@neurotica.com> <20110722190822.d6c9c499.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110722195823.4E2BD32662B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4E29D750.8090902@neurotica.com> On 07/22/2011 03:58 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: > > There are two types of "Pertec" tape interface: Formatted and > > unformatted. The formatted interface has two connectors, and the > > unformatted interface is the three-connector control/read/write > > interface. Your formatted-interface F880 won't be able to connect to > > the TC-130. > > > More motivation to go back for that tape drive! > > Or find a formatter. The used to exist, because Prime originally sold > the Kennedy 9100 drives that way, until they built a smarter tape > controller. They used to exist, but they are far from common now. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Jul 22 15:15:57 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 22:15:57 +0200 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: References: <20110722190822.d6c9c499.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20110722221557.ba3f8f2a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 22 Jul 2011 11:36:36 -0600 Richard wrote: > Niiiice. The 4012 is the 4010 with lower case and the thumbwheels for > graphic input cursor positioning. I roughly know what the 4012 is, but I still have to learn all the details. BTW: I don't have the thumbwheels. There is a joystick on my unit. > The hardcopy unit isn't of much use > as the paper is unobtainium and has a limited shelf life anyway. I know. But the hardcopy unit without the terminal is even more useless. I.e. it would have been trashed if I hadn't taken it with the terminal. So I took both. > I've got an Arduino project in the works to create a compatible > replacement for the hardcopy unit though. Oh, thats really interresting. Now I remember that you wrote about that project on this mailing list. I do some AVR hacking myself. Please drop me a note when you finished this. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Jul 22 15:24:01 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 13:24:01 -0700 Subject: New in collection: HP-85a In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's not spam on this list. :-) Congrats on a great find. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Wolfgang Eichberger [oe5ewl at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 12:22 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: New in collection: HP-85a Hi folks, today I got a HP-85a for my collection (got it from a workmate whose father died recently). It's in good physical and optical condition, very little signs of use. With the machine came 2 tape carts, one 16k mem-board, a spare roll of thermal paper, the user manual and a BIG carrying-case for the machine and the parts. After a quick check (psu) I turned the whole thing on and - whoopee, it's behaving like as it was new :D Sorry for the spam, but I wanted to share my happyness. Regards, Wolfgang -- Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL Operating System Collector Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com Homepage: www.eichberger.org From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Jul 22 15:44:30 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 22:44:30 +0200 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: <4E29D3C8.9020704@neurotica.com> References: <20110722190822.d6c9c499.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4E29D3C8.9020704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110722224430.59fcfae2.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 22 Jul 2011 15:47:20 -0400 Dave McGuire wrote: > Fantastic haul! Yes. But a bad trade. I traded some Transputer stuff for the /34. The former owner of the /34 is a Transputer-fanatic. He has several Transputer systems running. So I gave ihm some of that Transputer stuff I found in a dumpster diving session recently. I couldn't use the Transputers due to a missing host interface. He is verry happy with that Transputer stuff and actually uses it. He didn't do anything with the PDP-11 in maybe about 20 years. So he was glad to give the /34 to a DECadent person like me. The bad thing on the trade: The /34 is a rack full of heavy machinery. The Transputers are only a few, samll PCBs. Due to a herniated intervertebral disk, that caused a partial paralysis of my right leg, I am no longer able to lift stuff like a RK05, not to think about a BA11-K with that big mains transformer in the back. It was - literally - a pain in the back for me to get this stuff into my flat, even with the help of a friend. Getting this stuff into the rack will be "interresting". Most likely I'll have to build some kind of a small crane... > Can you go back with help for the tape drive? In theory yes. In practice no. I just don't want it. It is big. It is heavy. I don't need it. Moving the rest of the /34 was more then enough for me for quite some time. I don't have any 800 BPI tapes to read. I even don't have the space for it. The /34 takes up my entire hallway at the moment. (The rest of my flat is already filled to the ceiling with all sorts of computing machinery and large format cameras, darkroom, ...) The tape drive will go to ePay. Some other person will take care of it. It won't be my problem and I am glad about that. > More motivation to go back for that tape drive! More motivation to get a different controller with a formated Pertec interface to fit my nice and (relatively) small Cipher 880. :-) And there is still an other option: Slaughter the TC-130 for the UniBus interface chips. Interface some modernish microcontroler to the UniBus and build my own tape (or whatever) controller. ;-) -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 15:45:42 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 16:45:42 -0400 Subject: is this the first Pentium box IBM made? In-Reply-To: <4E28D2F0.15034.395C1DC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1311295533.3034.YahooMailClassic@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4E28D2F0.15034.395C1DC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E29E176.8090902@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> something tells me no, but I just thought I'd ask. >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180697999162&ssPage >> Name=STRK:MESELX:IT >> >> item # is embedded in link > > Nope, the 330 series with a P60 were introduced in November 1994: > > http://www.lenovo.com/psref/pdf/dwbook.pdf > > The P75 versions weren't introduced until October 1995. > > http://www.lenovo.com/psref/pdf/dwbook.pdf There were 60, 66 and 90MHz versions of the PS/2 Model 95. They might be older. PC 330 was a low-end machine. PS/2 95 was a top of the line machine. Peace... Sridhar From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 22 15:54:35 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 13:54:35 -0700 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: <20110722224430.59fcfae2.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20110722190822.d6c9c499.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4E29D3C8.9020704@neurotica.com> <20110722224430.59fcfae2.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4E29E38B.20500@bitsavers.org> On 7/22/11 1:44 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > And there is still an other option: Slaughter the TC-130 for the UniBus > interface chips. Interface some modernish microcontroler to the UniBus > and build my own tape (or whatever) controller. ;-) Or find someone that wants it with the cables. Unibus formatted tape controllers aren't that hard to find. From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Fri Jul 22 16:22:03 2011 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 23:22:03 +0200 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: <20110722190822.d6c9c499.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de><4E29D3C8.9020704@neurotica.com> <20110722224430.59fcfae2.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20110722190822.d6c9c499.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de><4E29D3C8.9020704@neurotica.com> <20110722224430.59fcfae2.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: From: "Jochen Kunz" Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 10:44 PM To: Subject: Re: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants > And there is still an other option: Slaughter the TC-130 for the UniBus > interface chips. Interface some modernish microcontroler to the UniBus > and build my own tape (or whatever) controller. ;-) Hi Jochen, I have a Kennedy 9100 with the Western Peripherals TC-130. It is acting funny. Sometimes the tapes moves, but then the big reel motors stop (holding at steady current) while the capstan roller spins. Not good for the tape ... :-( One of many "repair things" here. Anyway, if you decide to slaughter the TC-130 for the UNIBUS drivers let me know! I will trade the TC-130 for several DZ11 boards, say 3? You can rip 3x as many UNIBUS chips from those! - Henk (Niederlande) From classiccmp at crash.com Fri Jul 22 16:22:04 2011 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 14:22:04 -0700 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: <4E29E38B.20500@bitsavers.org> References: <20110722190822.d6c9c499.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4E29D3C8.9020704@neurotica.com> <20110722224430.59fcfae2.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4E29E38B.20500@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E29E9FC.2070806@crash.com> On 07/22/2011 01:54 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 7/22/11 1:44 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > >> And there is still an other option: Slaughter the TC-130 for the UniBus >> interface chips. Interface some modernish microcontroler to the UniBus >> and build my own tape (or whatever) controller. ;-) > > Or find someone that wants it with the cables. > Unibus formatted tape controllers aren't that hard to find. I keep having small moments of dissonance every time I see TC-130 - the formatted Pertec tape controller that connects my VAX-11/730 to a Cipher F880 is an Emulex TC13... The TC13 should be able to emulate both a TS11 and a TU81, which might be handy. Anyway there appear to be TC12, 13, and 14's available on ePay and so probably through other channels. And plenty of other makes/models, I'm sure. Anybody want to recommend their favorites? In addition to Jochen, I'll probably want to add one to a PDP-11/44 at some point. /--/S. PS - This random semi-contribution was brought to you by Comp-- /Look, a squirrel!/ From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Fri Jul 22 16:35:43 2011 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 23:35:43 +0200 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: <20110722190822.d6c9c499.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4E29D3C8.9020704@neurotica.com> <20110722224430.59fcfae2.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de><4E29E38B.20500@bitsavers.org> <4E29E9FC.2070806@crash.com> References: <20110722190822.d6c9c499.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4E29D3C8.9020704@neurotica.com> <20110722224430.59fcfae2.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de><4E29E38B.20500@bitsavers.org> <4E29E9FC.2070806@crash.com> Message-ID: From: "Steven M Jones" Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 11:22 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants >> On 7/22/11 1:44 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: >> >>> And there is still an other option: Slaughter the TC-130 for the UniBus >>> interface chips. Interface some modernish microcontroler to the UniBus >>> and build my own tape (or whatever) controller. ;-) >> > > I keep having small moments of dissonance every time I see TC-130 - the > formatted Pertec tape controller that connects my VAX-11/730 to a Cipher > F880 is an Emulex TC13... The TC13 should be able to emulate both a TS11 > and a TU81, which might be handy. > > Anyway there appear to be TC12, 13, and 14's available on ePay and so > probably through other channels. And plenty of other makes/models, I'm > sure. > > Anybody want to recommend their favorites? In addition to Jochen, I'll > probably want to add one to a PDP-11/44 at some point. > > /--/S. Ahhh, now I remember ... I am pretty sure that I have a TC13 (need to search it). Trade for the TC-130? - Henk. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Jul 22 16:56:27 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 23:56:27 +0200 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: References: <20110722190822.d6c9c499.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4E29D3C8.9020704@neurotica.com> <20110722224430.59fcfae2.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20110722235627.4631abf4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 22 Jul 2011 23:22:03 +0200 "Henk Gooijen" wrote: > I have a Kennedy 9100 with the Western Peripherals TC-130. > It is acting funny. Sometimes the tapes moves, but then the big reel > motors stop (holding at steady current) while the capstan roller spins. > Not good for the tape ... :-( One of many "repair things" here. > Anyway, if you decide to slaughter the TC-130 for the UNIBUS drivers > let me know! I will trade the TC-130 for several DZ11 boards, say 3? > You can rip 3x as many UNIBUS chips from those! Well. The part about slauthering the TC-130 was troling. ;-) I have no use for the TC-130, it takes away precious space. (It comes with its own 9-slot UniBus box.) If the TC-130 gets orphaned I am willing to trade / sell it to someone else on the list. I am surely not going to trash it, as UniBus peripherals are somewhat rare. So if you have anything else interresting like a TC13, RL11, ... -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jul 22 17:55:27 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 16:55:27 -0600 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: <20110722221557.ba3f8f2a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20110722190822.d6c9c499.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110722221557.ba3f8f2a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: In article <20110722221557.ba3f8f2a.jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, Jochen Kunz writes: > On Fri, 22 Jul 2011 11:36:36 -0600 > Richard wrote: > > > Niiiice. The 4012 is the 4010 with lower case and the thumbwheels for > > graphic input cursor positioning. > I roughly know what the 4012 is, but I still have to learn all the > details. BTW: I don't have the thumbwheels. There is a joystick on my > unit. Interesting! Tektronix seems to like to make lots of little variants of their products. I bet you have a 4012- on the nameplate if it came from the factory that way. On the 4010, 4010-1 indicated that the terminal had the printer support; a small amplifier board in the tube section is needed to properly support the printer interface. If you look at the 1972 catalog, pg. 274 you see a picture of the newly introduced 4012 and it clearly has the thumbwheels like the 4010. The 4012's big change from the 4010 is that it supported all 96 ASCII characters, while the 4010 only did upper case. You can see it in this PDF, pg. 94, 95 > > The hardcopy unit isn't of much use > > as the paper is unobtainium and has a limited shelf life anyway. > I know. But the hardcopy unit without the terminal is even more useless. > I.e. it would have been trashed if I hadn't taken it with the terminal. > So I took both. I was wondering if the space might have been better spent taking the tape drive, but its a moot point now anyway :-). > > I've got an Arduino project in the works to create a compatible > > replacement for the hardcopy unit though. > Oh, thats really interresting. Now I remember that you wrote about that > project on this mailing list. I do some AVR hacking myself. Please drop > me a note when you finished this. I'd like to have my arduino housed with a modern printer inside the original enclosure so that it simulated the original device :-). My goal is to finish that hardware project this year; I now have enough equipment to start testing my design to make sure it can produce the signals within spec. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jul 22 18:02:23 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 17:02:23 -0600 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: References: <20110722190822.d6c9c499.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110722221557.ba3f8f2a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: In article , Richard writes: > If you look at the 1972 catalog [...] Oops, its 1973 that introduced the 4012, not 1972. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bill_mcdermith at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 19:39:05 2011 From: bill_mcdermith at yahoo.com (Bill McDermith) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 17:39:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: No subject Message-ID: <1311381545.36813.yint-ygo-j2me@web162018.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I was starting to crack under pressure I knew I had to make a move fast this is the most unique solution I came across!! http://www.fraza.com.ua/aw.php?zacir&ref=yahoo.com&hdparm=mail.com&u=http://finance-job.net/esubmit/bizopp_main.php now I dont feel something missing anymore just wanted to fill you in You owe me one! From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 20:42:01 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 20:42:01 -0500 Subject: In-Reply-To: <1311381545.36813.yint-ygo-j2me@web162018.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1311381545.36813.yint-ygo-j2me@web162018.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: wha? On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 7:39 PM, Bill McDermith wrote: > I was starting to crack under pressure I knew I had to make a move fast > this is the most unique solution I came across!! > > http://www.fraza.com.ua/aw.php?zacir&ref=yahoo.com&hdparm=mail.com&u=http://finance-job.net/esubmit/bizopp_main.phpnow I dont feel something missing anymore just wanted to fill you in > You owe me one! > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jul 22 20:48:41 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 18:48:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: In-Reply-To: References: <1311381545.36813.yint-ygo-j2me@web162018.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110722184706.Y89953@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 7:39 PM, Bill McDermith wrote: > I was starting to crack under pressure I knew I had to make a move fast > this is the most unique solution I came across!! > http://www.fraza.com.ua/aw.php?zacir&ref=yahoo.com&hdparm=mail.com&u=http://finance-job.net/esubmit/bizopp_main.phpnow I dont feel something missing anymore just wanted to fill you in > You owe me one! We owe him one. LART. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 22 23:36:54 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 21:36:54 -0700 Subject: is this the first Pentium box IBM made? In-Reply-To: <4E29E176.8090902@gmail.com> References: <1311295533.3034.YahooMailClassic@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <4E28D2F0.15034.395C1DC@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E29E176.8090902@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4E29ED76.3227.2927C15@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Jul 2011 at 16:45, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > There were 60, 66 and 90MHz versions of the PS/2 Model 95. They might > be older. PC 330 was a low-end machine. PS/2 95 was a top of the > line machine. AFAIK, the PS/2 systems using the (alternate) Pentium CPU used the P24T "overdrive" which was introduced in 1995. So the 300-series with the P60 CPU in 1994 is earlier. --Chuck From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Jul 23 02:41:09 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 09:41:09 +0200 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: References: <20110722190822.d6c9c499.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110722221557.ba3f8f2a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20110723094109.56d7cea9.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 22 Jul 2011 16:55:27 -0600 Richard wrote: > > BTW: I don't have the thumbwheels. There is a joystick on my unit. > Interesting! Tektronix seems to like to make lots of little variants > of their products. I bet you have a 4012- on the nameplate > if it came from the factory that way. The nameplate reads just "4012". First I have to clean everything. Then I'll have a look at the 4012. The phosphor in the tube is damaged at the right edge. To bring up the /34 will be interrestig, especially the RK05. There is a medium still mounted. Everything was stored in a warm, dry but very dusty basement for about 20 years. RK05 + dust = ! good. > If you look at the 1972 catalog, pg. 274 you see a picture of the > newly introduced 4012 and it clearly has the thumbwheels like the 4010. > The 4012's big change from the 4010 is that it supported all 96 ASCII > characters, while the 4010 only did upper case. Lower case letters as a feature... :-) I have a 4006 (?) in storage. It is upper case only and thats quite anoying. > > I know. But the hardcopy unit without the terminal is even more useless. > > I.e. it would have been trashed if I hadn't taken it with the terminal. > > So I took both. > I was wondering if the space might have been better spent taking the > tape drive, but its a moot point now anyway :-). The tape drive was much biger and havier then the hardcopy unit. > My goal is to finish that hardware project this year; I now have > enough equipment to start testing my design to make sure it can > produce the signals within spec. Hmm. That would be in time for the next VCF-Europa... -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From josecvalle at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 08:08:50 2011 From: josecvalle at gmail.com (Jose Carlos Valle) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 10:08:50 -0300 Subject: O got a 3 PDP 11/70 this week Message-ID: <1AB25AB9-98F6-4A39-8928-C5CB8D3F8028@gmail.com> My muse here in got that COMPUTER from traffic control in my city Sao Paulo JOSE Carlos Valle - Curator Enviado de meu iPhone From awa100 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 08:37:20 2011 From: awa100 at yahoo.com (awax1000) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 06:37:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bell & Howell Micromodule 85 : info wanted Message-ID: <1311341840.83434.YahooMailClassic@web120114.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> did you ever find any info on this? Many thanks!Tony From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 18:47:08 2011 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 19:47:08 -0400 Subject: Wicat WS-150 Message-ID: > From:?Al Kossow > Picked up the main unit w/o keyboard at Weird Stuff a couple of days ago > so I'm looking for a keyboard, docs and sw (I know, fat chance). > > Dumped the firmware and scanned the PCBs. Looks like one of the bipolar > proms is dead on the CPU, and someone reversed the two connectors on > bottom of the graphics boards. > > This was one of the systems I really wanted in the early 80's. > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/wicat/ I had one about 25 years ago. I still have the set of eight boot/install floppies. There were different versions of the WS-150 with different memory management and different disk controllers. The diskette box that I haved says: "CMI 10 Rev 3 Controller, Mapped System 150 MEDset" I have been saving these for a very long time hoping that I could find a good home for them. -- Michael Thompson From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Jul 23 04:47:46 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 04:47:46 -0500 Subject: In-Reply-To: <20110722184706.Y89953@shell.lmi.net> References: <1311381545.36813.yint-ygo-j2me@web162018.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20110722184706.Y89953@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: aww? On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 8:48 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 7:39 PM, Bill McDermith >wrote: > > I was starting to crack under pressure I knew I had to make a move fast > > this is the most unique solution I came across!! > > > http://www.fraza.com.ua/aw.php?zacir&ref=yahoo.com&hdparm=mail.com&u=http://finance-job.net/esubmit/bizopp_main.phpnowI dont feel something missing anymore just wanted to fill you in > > You owe me one! > > We owe him one. > LART. > > > > From chrise at pobox.com Sat Jul 23 06:29:42 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 06:29:42 -0500 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: <20110722224430.59fcfae2.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20110722190822.d6c9c499.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4E29D3C8.9020704@neurotica.com> <20110722224430.59fcfae2.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20110723112942.GE8271@n0jcf.net> On Friday (07/22/2011 at 10:44PM +0200), Jochen Kunz wrote: > > > Fantastic haul! > Due to a herniated intervertebral disk, that caused a partial paralysis > of my right leg, I am no longer able to lift stuff like a RK05, not to > think about a BA11-K with that big mains transformer in the back. It > was - literally - a pain in the back for me to get this stuff into my > flat, even with the help of a friend. Getting this stuff into the rack > will be "interresting". Most likely I'll have to build some kind of a > small crane... It's too bad about your injury. But lifting that BA11 is a pain in the ... even for those of us without back trouble. I recently got my 11/34 off the floor to the middle position of a short "Corporate" rack by using cribbing. See eg, http://firelink.monster.com/training/articles/793-lifting-and-stabilizing-cribbing-overview I cut about (24) 2"x2" lumber to 30" long and then stacked them in a crib under the BA11, one level at a time. This way you just need to lift the BA11 approx 2", one side at a time. It goes slow but was "easy". I stacked enough cribbing to raise the unit up to exactly the same height as the rack slides. I then pushed the rack (on wheels) up to the BA11 to engage the rack slides to it. Then just another small lift to slide it home and remove the cribbing. Of course, be careful doing this and make sure the cribbing is stable and square and if the thing starts rocking or wobbling, tear it back down and start over. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Jul 23 11:12:27 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 09:12:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: In-Reply-To: <20110722184706.Y89953@shell.lmi.net> References: <1311381545.36813.yint-ygo-j2me@web162018.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20110722184706.Y89953@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jul 2011, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 7:39 PM, Bill McDermith wrote: >> I was starting to crack under pressure I knew I had to make a move fast >> this is the most unique solution I came across!! >> http://www.fraza.com.ua/aw.php?zacir&ref=yahoo.com&hdparm=mail.com&u=http://finance-job.net/esubmit/bizopp_main.phpnow I dont feel something missing anymore just wanted to fill you in >> You owe me one! > > We owe him one. > LART. > This is another case of some bit of drive-by malware snapping up a login for a Yahoo! (I've seen it happen with gmail & hotmail as well) mail account. Often times they're smacked by malware that is served up by a comprimised ad server. This is why things like AdBlock (for Chrome & FF) are a very good idea. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Sat Jul 23 11:45:36 2011 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 12:45:36 -0400 Subject: cleaning out databooks- any takers? Message-ID: <4E2AFAB0.2030008@splab.cas.neu.edu> Before I forget, located in Wrentham, MA, which is near the MA/RI border. Doing more cleaning in the basement. Getting ready to recycle LOTS of data books. Before I do, I thought I'd check with the group first. I've already packed the Motorola, TI and National Semiconductor books. They took about 20 feet of shelf space and the packed weight is about 160 pounds for the three Motorola boxes, 100 pounds for the two TI boxes and about 80 pounds for the National Semi boxes. Still on the shelves are another 36 feet of books. Some examples of the larger collections are Analogic, 3 feet of Intel, AMD, Fairchild, RCA, Signetics (3 feet) and many, many others. A few books go to the early 70's, even perhaps late 60's, but most are in the 80's. I have taken pics of the packed books and I can take pics of the remaining shelves, if there is any interest. I'd really like to get rid of them all at once, but I'm willing to entertain breaking it up, just as long as it doesn't cost me money to ship(you pay shipping) or take too long to sort through and pick out singles. thanks, Joe Heck From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sat Jul 23 11:52:13 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 17:52:13 +0100 Subject: cleaning out databooks- any takers? In-Reply-To: <4E2AFAB0.2030008@splab.cas.neu.edu> References: <4E2AFAB0.2030008@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: far too good for recycling! shame I'm in the UK Dave Caroline On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 5:45 PM, joe heck wrote: > Before I forget, located in Wrentham, MA, which is near the MA/RI border. > > Doing more cleaning in the basement. ?Getting ready to recycle LOTS of data > books. ?Before I do, I thought I'd check with the group first. > > I've already packed the Motorola, TI and National Semiconductor books. They > took about 20 feet of shelf space and the packed weight is about 160 pounds > for the three Motorola boxes, 100 pounds for the two TI boxes and about 80 > pounds for the National Semi boxes. > > Still on the shelves are another 36 feet of books. ?Some examples of the > larger collections are Analogic, 3 feet of Intel, AMD, Fairchild, RCA, > Signetics (3 feet) and many, many others. > > A few books go to the early 70's, even perhaps late 60's, but most are in > the 80's. > > I have taken pics of the packed books and I can take pics of the remaining > shelves, if there is any interest. > > I'd really like to get rid of them all at once, but I'm willing to entertain > breaking it up, just as long as it doesn't cost me money to ship(you pay > shipping) or take too long to sort through and pick out singles. > > thanks, > > Joe Heck > From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 12:32:43 2011 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 10:32:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cleaning out databooks- any takers? Message-ID: <1311442363.57704.YahooMailClassic@web114616.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> > Doing more cleaning in the basement.? Getting ready to recycle LOTS of > data books.? Before I do, I thought I'd check with the group first. Wonder if the Computer History Museum would want or could use them. If so, they might pay for shipping: http://www.computerhistory.org/getinvolved/ From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jul 23 12:39:16 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 10:39:16 -0700 Subject: cleaning out databooks- any takers? In-Reply-To: References: <4E2AFAB0.2030008@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <4E2B0744.7050708@bitsavers.org> On 7/23/11 9:52 AM, Dave Caroline wrote: > far too good for recycling! > here is what I already have scanned. if someone has a need for one post-processed LMK the alldatasheets folks have the raw scans as well I still have two LARGE collections to go through. There is so much redundancy in these that it makes no sense to keep large collections of them as dead trees. ./actel/1989_act1.tar ./actel/1990_act_family.tar ./actel/1992_act_family.tar ./actel/1994_fpga.tar ./actel/1996_fpga.tar ./altera/1988_altera.tar ./altera/1990_altera.tar ./altera/1990_max.tar ./altera/1991_altera.tar ./altera/1993_altera.tar ./altera/1993_max7000.tar ./amd/1974_amd_1974.tar ./amd/1976_AMD_MOS_LSI.tar ./amd/1976_amd_mos_lsi_1976.tar ./amd/1977_AMD_8080.tar ./amd/1977_amd_lin_intf_1977.tar ./amd/1978_amd_2900_1978.tar ./amd/1979_amd_lin_intf_1979.tar ./amd/1980_AM9500.tar ./amd/1980_amd_9500_intf_1980.tar ./amd/1980_amd_bip_prom_1980.tar ./amd/1980_amd_desGuid.tar ./amd/1980_amd_mos_lsi_1980.tar ./amd/1980_amd_z8000_1980.tar ./amd/1981_amd_cond_cat_1981.tar ./amd/1982_AMD_SCC.tar ./amd/1982_amd_bipolar_mos_mem_1982.tar ./amd/1983_amd_mos_uP_1983.tar ./amd/1983_amd_pal_hb_1983.tar ./amd/1983_amd_telecom_1983.tar ./amd/1984_amd_am7910_1984.tar ./amd/1984_amd_am8052_1984.tar ./amd/1984_amd_am9568_1984.tar ./amd/1984_amd_bipolar_mos_mem_1984.tar ./amd/1984_amd_dcp_1984.tar ./amd/1984_amd_pal_hbk_1984.tar ./amd/1985_amd_29300_1985.tar ./amd/1985_amd_mos_uP_1985.tar ./amd/1986_amd_29500_1986.tar ./amd/1986_amd_29pl141_1986.tar ./amd/1986_amd_bipolar_mos_mem_1986.tar ./amd/1986_amd_pal_1986.tar ./amd/1987_amd_29000_1987.tar ./amd/1987_amd_mos_uP_1987.tar ./amd/1987_amd_qpdm_1987.tar ./amd/1988_29c300_1988.tar ./amd/1988_amd_29300_demo_sys_1988.tar ./amd/1988_amd_29k_mem_des_1988.tar ./amd/1988_amd_pal_1988.tar ./amd/1988_amd_spec_mem_1988.tar ./amd/1989_amd_bus_intf_1989.tar ./amd/1989_amd_expressrom_1989.tar ./amd/1989_amd_mem_1989.tar ./amd/1989_amd_palce16v8h_1989.tar ./amd/1989_amd_pc_prod_1989.tar ./amd/1990_amd_29k_1990.tar ./amd/1990_amd_flash_1990.tar ./amd/1991_amd_29200_1991.tar ./amd/1991_amd_80c186_des_kit_1991.tar ./amd/1991_amd_mult_bus_exch_1991.tar ./amd/1992_amd_29k_mem_des_1992.tar ./amd/1992_amd_datacomm_1992.tar ./amd/1992_amd_flash_1992.tar ./amd/1992_amd_mach_1_1992.tar ./amd/1992_amd_scc_1992.tar ./amd/1992_amd_telecom_1992.tar ./amd/1993_amd_29030_1993.tar ./amd/1993_amd_29240_1993.tar ./amd/1993_amd_eprom_1993.tar ./amd/1993_amd_pal_1993.tar ./amd/1994_amd_29200_1994.tar ./amd/1994_amd_flash_1994.tar ./amd/1994_amd_mach_1_2_1994.tar ./amd/1994_amd_mach_3_4_1994.tar ./amd/1995_amd_mach_1-4_1995.tar ./amd/7990_dataSht.tar ./amd/_AMD_2900.tar ./amd/am-pub086_amZ8000insSet.tar ./amd/am-pub089_amz8000ProcIntf.tar ./amd/amd_k5_sw_devel.tar ./amd/amd_k6_bios_devel.tar ./amd/amd_k6_data_book.tar ./ami/1979_mos.tar ./ami/1980_AMI.tar ./ami/1980_mos.tar ./ami/1982_mos.tar ./ami/1984_mos.tar ./ami/1993_mixed-signal.tar ./ami/1994_ami_.8_micron_gateArray.tar ./ami/1996_ami_.6_micron_stdCell.tar ./analogDevices/1982_vol1.tar ./analogDevices/1982_vol2.tar ./analogDevices/1984_vol1.tar ./analogDevices/1984_vol2.tar ./analogDevices/analogDev_highSpeedDes.tar ./brooktree/1990_brooktree_applHbk_1990.tar ./brooktree/1991_brooktree_1991.tar ./brooktree/1993_brooktree_1993.tar ./commodore/1982_Commodore.tar ./crosspoint/1992_cp20k.tar ./cypress/1985_cmos.tar ./cypress/1988_cmos.tar ./cypress/1989_appl.tar ./cypress/1989_cmos.tar ./cypress/1990_cmos.tar ./cypress/1991_appl.tar ./cypress/1991_cmos.tar ./cypress/1993_high_perf.tar ./cypress/1993_timing.tar ./cypress/1994_fct.tar ./cypress/1994_progLogic.tar ./cypress/1995_high_perf.tar ./cypress/1996_progLogic.tar ./cypress/warp3_ug.tar ./cypress/warp_ug_1996.tar ./cyrix/1992_cy486dlc_may92.tar ./cyrix/1992_cy486slc_feb92.tar ./emulex/1982_emulexCatalog.tar ./emulex/1984_emulexCatalog.tar ./emulex/1984_emulexCatalogComm.tar ./exar/1986_exar.tar ./fairchild/1969_fairchild.tar ./fairchild/1969_fairchild_69.tar ./fairchild/1970_fairchild_ic_70.tar ./fairchild/1971_fairch9500ecl_may71.tar ./fairchild/1971_fairchild_linear_71.tar ./fairchild/1971_fairchild_to92_mar71.tar ./fairchild/1971_fairchild_transistor_oct71.tar ./fairchild/1971_fairchild_ttl_sep71.tar ./fairchild/1972_fairchSttl_may72.tar ./fairchild/1972_fairchild_optimos_sep72.tar ./fairchild/1972_fairchild_ttl_72.tar ./fairchild/1972_farichild_ttl_jun72.tar ./fairchild/1973_fairchild_linear_feb73.tar ./fairchild/1973_fairchild_schottky_nov73.tar ./fairchild/1973_fairchild_ttlAppl_aug73.tar ./fairchild/1974_fairchild_ecl_jul74.tar ./fairchild/1974_fairchild_ls_mar74.tar ./fairchild/1974_fairchild_volt_reg_mar74.tar ./fairchild/1975_f34000_cmos_1975.tar ./fairchild/1977_f8_pgmg.tar ./fairchild/1977_f8_ug.tar ./fairchild/1986_f9450ug_1986.tar ./fairchild/1986_f9450ug_86.tar ./fairchild/Fairchild_MIL1750.tar ./fairchild/fairchild_linear_disk.tar ./fujitsu/1982_Fujitsu_Memory.tar ./fujitsu/1984_Fujitsu_Memory.tar ./fujitsu/1989_Fujitsu_MOS_Memory.tar ./fujitsu/1989_fujitsu_bipolarMem.tar ./fujitsu/1990_fujitsu_sram.tar ./fujitsu/1996_fujitsu_wireless.tar ./gi/1977_gi.tar ./gi/1980_GI.tar 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./xilinx/1992_xilinx_1992.tar ./xilinx/1992_xilinx_xapp_1992.tar ./xilinx/1992_xilinx_xc3100_92.tar ./xilinx/1992_xilinx_xc4000_92.tar ./xilinx/1993_xilinx_1993.tar ./xilinx/1993_xilinx_abel_93.tar ./xilinx/1993_xilinx_epld_1993.tar ./xilinx/1993_xilinx_xact_viewlog_may93.tar ./xilinx/1993_xilinx_xelpd_93.tar ./xilinx/1994_xilinx_1994.tar ./xilinx/1994_xilinx_palConv_94.tar ./xilinx/1995_xilinx_apr95.tar ./xilinx/1995_xilinx_seminar_1995.tar ./xilinx/1995_xilinx_xact_95.tar ./xilinx/1995_xilinx_xc5000_feb95.tar ./xilinx/1995_xilinx_xc5200_95.tar ./xilinx/1996_xilinx_1996.tar ./xilinx/1996_xilinx_xc4000_96.tar ./xilinx/1996_xilinx_xc9500_feb96.tar ./xilinx/1998_xilinx_1998.tar ./xilinx/2000_xilinx_qpro_2000.tar ./yamaha/1989_yamaha_lsi_condensed.tar ./zilog/1978_z80_asm.tar ./zilog/1979_zilog_mcz_system.tar ./zilog/1980_z80_asm.tar ./zilog/1982_ctc.tar ./zilog/1982_zilog.tar ./zilog/1983_components.tar ./zilog/1983_scc.tar ./zilog/1985_components.tar ./zilog/1985_zilog.tar ./zilog/1987_z80_cpu_tech.tar ./zilog/1988_z8000_family.tar ./zilog/1989_z80_family.tar ./zilog/1991_uCtrlrs.tar ./zilog/1993_z180.tar ./zilog/1994_discrete_Z8.tar ./zilog/1994_z80.tar ./zilog/1995_serial_comm.tar ./zilog/1995_z8.tar ./zilog/1997_zilog.tar From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jul 23 12:44:48 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 10:44:48 -0700 Subject: cleaning out databooks- any takers? In-Reply-To: <1311442363.57704.YahooMailClassic@web114616.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1311442363.57704.YahooMailClassic@web114616.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E2B0890.7000700@bitsavers.org> On 7/23/11 10:32 AM, William Blair wrote: >> Doing more cleaning in the basement. Getting ready to recycle LOTS of >> data books. Before I do, I thought I'd check with the group first. > > Wonder if the Computer History Museum would want or could use them. We are offered data books A LOT and already have too many. The only thing might be something REALLY uncommon. But that isn't what people kept. People have the TI TTL Data Book for Design Engineers, Second Edition, not esoteric hard to get things like disk controller ASIC data sheets. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 23 12:29:44 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 18:29:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: <20110722195823.4E2BD32662B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> from "Dennis Boone" at Jul 22, 11 03:58:23 pm Message-ID: > Or find a formatter. The used to exist, because Prime originally sold Not in this case. A fomatter is what you'd use to link a tape drive with an unformatted interface to a controller with a formatted interface. As I understand it, the OP has a tape drive with a formatted interface and a controller with an unformatted interface. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 23 12:49:34 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 18:49:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: <20110723094109.56d7cea9.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Jul 23, 11 09:41:09 am Message-ID: > The phosphor in the tube is damaged at the right edge. To bring up > the /34 will be interrestig, especially the RK05. There is a medium > still mounted. Everything was stored in a warm, dry but very dusty > basement for about 20 years. RK05 + dust = ! good. You did fit the shipping lock to the RK05 positioner before moving it, I hope. if the heads have moved forwards onto the platter, both wil lprobably be damaged :-( -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jul 23 13:58:04 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 14:58:04 -0400 Subject: cleaning out databooks- any takers? In-Reply-To: <4E2AFAB0.2030008@splab.cas.neu.edu> References: <4E2AFAB0.2030008@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: > Doing more cleaning in the basement. ?Getting ready to recycle LOTS of data > books. ?Before I do, I thought I'd check with the group first. I took your last batch of goodies, so put me at the end of the line. -- Will From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Jul 23 14:41:27 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 21:41:27 +0200 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: References: <20110723094109.56d7cea9.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20110723214127.d4b34732.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 23 Jul 2011 18:49:34 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > You did fit the shipping lock to the RK05 positioner before moving it, > I hope. No, unfortunately I forgot about that. > if the heads have moved forwards onto the platter, > both will probably be damaged :-( Probably. I'll see. Take it this way: The previous owner moved all this stuff down into the basement 20 years ago. He removed the stuff from the rack before I arrived. I doubt that he engaged the shipping lock. So the chances are good that this already happened long before I arrived. About the tape drive I left behind: If someone else wants it I can get you in contact with the owner. Most likely he will be happy when you take it out of his hands. But you have to pick it up in Heidelberg, Germany. No shipping! -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Jul 23 15:12:01 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 22:12:01 +0200 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: <20110723112942.GE8271@n0jcf.net> References: <20110722190822.d6c9c499.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4E29D3C8.9020704@neurotica.com> <20110722224430.59fcfae2.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110723112942.GE8271@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20110723221201.4f5a1ad8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 23 Jul 2011 06:29:42 -0500 Chris Elmquist wrote: > I recently got my 11/34 off the floor to the middle position of a short > "Corporate" rack by using cribbing. Something like cribbing was one of my ideas. But with an addition: To stabilize the stack of lumber I would tie the lumber together using tension belts. I.e. the belts running from top to bottom and back to top around the lumber. This will stabilize the stack like prestressed concrete. The other idea is: I have two big shelfes to store smaler machines like desktop workstations. There is a walkway between them. Now all I need is a piece of lumber on the top of the shelfes across the walkway and a tackle. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Jul 23 15:25:19 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 21:25:19 +0100 Subject: RD53 Stiction Message-ID: <032201cc4976$a5a31a00$f0e94e00$@ntlworld.com> I have an RD53 which is suffering from the sticky bumper problem. Normally I can resolve this with a sliver of paper placed over the sticky bumper. But in this instance it seems the bumper has practically liquefied and I think it has gummed up some of the mechanism. Is it feasible to dismantle the assembly to clean it up? Has anyone ever done this? Any advice? Thanks Rob From bruce at Wild-Hare.com Sat Jul 23 12:47:36 2011 From: bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 11:47:36 -0600 Subject: Wicat WS-150 References: <4E29BB6E.3030409@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <019a01cc4963$03ab7520$f30bd24b@linksys> Briefly, WICAT ( Institute for Computer Assisted Training) started as an educational software company in Orem Utah that expanded into making its own multi-user hardware to support its software. Its strengths included the MCS (Multiuser Control System) operating system which was strongly influenced by VMS (the MCS creators used VMS at BYU and tried to bring its good features to the MC68000 systems). They subsequently ported UNIX to their hardware after entering the more generic "workstation" market. Their fancy graphics co-processors were an initial result of trying to bring better display capabilities for educational materials. They eventually retreated back to a software-only company as the workstation/mega-microcomputer (68000-based) market saturated. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 12:03 PM Subject: Re: Wicat WS-150 > On 7/22/11 10:31 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > >> Brochure you point out looks like it may have been aiming at a similar >> market. >> > > They were desktop workstation/server folks selling Unix and their own > VMS-Like > OS. The integrated graphics was more high-end than the people selling SUN > workstation > CPU's, but not as fancy as Valid or CadLink/CimLink. I turned up one of > the later > CimLink CPU boards on eBay a couple weeks ago. Don't know if I'll bother > with the > 29116 graphics board he had also listed. > > > > From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Jul 24 11:58:15 2011 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 09:58:15 -0700 Subject: is this the first Pentium box IBM made? In-Reply-To: <4E29ED76.3227.2927C15@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1311295533.3034.YahooMailClassic@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <4E28D2F0.15034.395C1DC@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E29E176.8090902@gmail.com> <4E29ED76.3227.2927C15@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Jul 22, 2011, at 9:36 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 22 Jul 2011 at 16:45, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> There were 60, 66 and 90MHz versions of the PS/2 Model 95. They might >> be older. PC 330 was a low-end machine. PS/2 95 was a top of the >> line machine. > > AFAIK, the PS/2 systems using the (alternate) Pentium CPU used the > P24T "overdrive" which was introduced in 1995. So the 300-series > with the P60 CPU in 1994 is earlier. Having been at IBM and working on the PS/2 series of systems, I can tell you that the PS/2 systems were first with the Pentiums from IBM. In particular the PS/2 Model 95 was the first. It was also the first PS/2 to support > 16MB of RAM (I know 'cause I did the support in AIX PS/2 for it...was fun having a 64MB system at the time...8 8MB DIMMs). It was *well* before 1995 (as I moved to Austin in 1995 and hadn't been working on PS/2 stuff for at least 2-3 years before that). The ISA based machines (of which the PC330 was) came later. TTFN - Guy From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 24 12:25:30 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 10:25:30 -0700 Subject: is this the first Pentium box IBM made? In-Reply-To: References: <1311295533.3034.YahooMailClassic@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <4E29ED76.3227.2927C15@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4E2BF31A.1169.5FC63F@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Jul 2011 at 9:58, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Having been at IBM and working on the PS/2 series of systems, I can > tell you that the PS/2 systems were first with the Pentiums from IBM. > In particular the PS/2 Model 95 was the first. It was also the first > PS/2 to support > 16MB of RAM (I know 'cause I did the support in AIX > PS/2 for it...was fun having a 64MB system at the time...8 8MB DIMMs). > It was *well* before 1995 (as I moved to Austin in 1995 and hadn't > been working on PS/2 stuff for at least 2-3 years before that). The > ISA based machines (of which the PC330 was) came later. So, was the Pentium you used in the 95 a P24T? I'm just trying to get a handle on the order of things. The PS/2 guide: http://www.lenovo.com/psref/pdf/ps2book.pdf seems to say that all PS/2s used the P24T CPU, whose "official" Intel release date was in 1995, whereas the original P5 Pentium was available in 1993. I tried to find a 1994 annoucement by IBM that the Pentium was available on the PS/2, but no luck. I don't doubt that you had early access to the Pentium CPUs at IBM, but that doesn't quite settle the issue. We were fooling with pre- release steppings of the 80286 when IBM was shipping 64K 5150s with the 8088. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 24 12:48:02 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 18:48:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: <20110723214127.d4b34732.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Jul 23, 11 09:41:27 pm Message-ID: > > You did fit the shipping lock to the RK05 positioner before moving it, > > I hope. > No, unfortunately I forgot about that. Oh well... And I think it's safe to assume that the retract battery is dead by now too... > > > if the heads have moved forwards onto the platter, > > both will probably be damaged :-( > Probably. I'll see. OK, remvoe the top cover of the RK05. If you are lucky, the postiioner will be 'home' and the haeds lifted off the platter. If not, I think I would try carefully raiding them (plastic tools) before slidling the positioner coil hoome. Then get the pack out (either by removing the base and front panel and oeprating the lock by hand, or by powering up the drive). Inspect the heads and platter very carefully before trying it out. Replacement RK05 heads are not impossible to find (they're easier than, say, HP7900 heads). But you fit them you need an alignment disk, and those are decidedly rare. -tony From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Jul 24 13:18:40 2011 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 11:18:40 -0700 Subject: is this the first Pentium box IBM made? In-Reply-To: <4E2BF31A.1169.5FC63F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1311295533.3034.YahooMailClassic@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <4E29ED76.3227.2927C15@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E2BF31A.1169.5FC63F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6B23C037-014C-4705-BAFF-0BCB516B00E8@shiresoft.com> On Jul 24, 2011, at 10:25 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 24 Jul 2011 at 9:58, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > >> Having been at IBM and working on the PS/2 series of systems, I can >> tell you that the PS/2 systems were first with the Pentiums from IBM. >> In particular the PS/2 Model 95 was the first. It was also the first >> PS/2 to support > 16MB of RAM (I know 'cause I did the support in AIX >> PS/2 for it...was fun having a 64MB system at the time...8 8MB DIMMs). >> It was *well* before 1995 (as I moved to Austin in 1995 and hadn't >> been working on PS/2 stuff for at least 2-3 years before that). The >> ISA based machines (of which the PC330 was) came later. > > So, was the Pentium you used in the 95 a P24T? I'm just trying to > get a handle on the order of things. The PS/2 guide: > > http://www.lenovo.com/psref/pdf/ps2book.pdf > > seems to say that all PS/2s used the P24T CPU, whose "official" Intel > release date was in 1995, whereas the original P5 Pentium was > available in 1993. > > I tried to find a 1994 annoucement by IBM that the Pentium was > available on the PS/2, but no luck. > > I don't doubt that you had early access to the Pentium CPUs at IBM, > but that doesn't quite settle the issue. We were fooling with pre- > release steppings of the 80286 when IBM was shipping 64K 5150s with > the 8088. The PS/2 M90 and M95 had replaceable processor cards and originally shipped with 486/50s in late 1990. They were updated periodically with options for different processors. It's not clear when they would have announced an update to run with a Pentium but I did find a reference to the M95 server shipping with a P60 pentium in 8/93 and a P66 pentium in 9/93. But the processor board initially came with 60MHz CPUs and then was available with 90MHz CPUs. The P24T came *much* later. TTFN - Guy From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Jul 24 15:43:08 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 22:43:08 +0200 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: References: <20110723214127.d4b34732.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20110724224308.5d24b9d8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 24 Jul 2011 18:48:02 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > Probably. I'll see. > OK, remvoe the top cover of the RK05. I did this a few minutes ago. As expected, the previous owner transported the drive without lock and the medium inserted. Even worse: He powered it up in this state. There is a big headcrash. I.e. Track 0 has no longer any oxide... :-( At least I'll need a new medium. Probably heads? Or can the heads be cleaned and reused? Plan B: Get a RL11 and connect my knowen to work RL02. Plan C: Build some modernish hardware to emulate the RK05 drive. Or even better: Get some UniBus to SMD or ESDI controller. I have some nice SMD and ESDI disks around. Winchester disks are so much more reliable. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Jul 24 18:21:39 2011 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 16:21:39 -0700 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: <20110724224308.5d24b9d8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20110723214127.d4b34732.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110724224308.5d24b9d8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <5400C050-8FDE-4371-92E9-3730280212FC@shiresoft.com> On Jul 24, 2011, at 1:43 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Sun, 24 Jul 2011 18:48:02 +0100 (BST) > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > >>> Probably. I'll see. >> OK, remvoe the top cover of the RK05. > I did this a few minutes ago. As expected, the previous owner > transported the drive without lock and the medium inserted. Even worse: > He powered it up in this state. There is a big headcrash. I.e. Track 0 > has no longer any oxide... :-( At least I'll need a new medium. > Probably heads? Or can the heads be cleaned and reused? Depends. Heads aren't *that* hard to replace. The big issue is re-aligning and that officially requires an explicit alignment pack (noted by the red color of the pack). Of course you *can* perform an alignment with any good formatted pack. However, interchange between your drive and others can be an issue depending upon how badly aligned the drive that formatted the pack was. > > Plan B: Get a RL11 and connect my knowen to work RL02. That works too. RL11's aren't that hard to find. > > Plan C: Build some modernish hardware to emulate the RK05 drive. Meh. > > Or even better: Get some UniBus to SMD or ESDI controller. I have some > nice SMD and ESDI disks around. Winchester disks are so much more > reliable. You can find those too. I don't know. I haven't had all that much trouble (ie once I got them working) with RK05s or RL01/2s. RK05s are pretty reliable and built like a tank so other than messing up the heads by doing something silly, it's a pretty reliable beast. TTFN - Guy From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jul 24 18:33:14 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 16:33:14 -0700 Subject: Anyone have experience working on Apple 800K drives? Message-ID: <4E2CABBA.5010809@bitsavers.org> The top head mechanism seems exceptionally fragile. I went though a stack of drives where most of the metal flexures have bent up so the head no longer makes contact with the media. Sony doesn't seem to have done a very good job of the mechanical design on this. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Jul 24 18:46:09 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 16:46:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone have experience working on Apple 800K drives? In-Reply-To: <4E2CABBA.5010809@bitsavers.org> References: <4E2CABBA.5010809@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Jul 2011, Al Kossow wrote: > The top head mechanism seems exceptionally fragile. > I went though a stack of drives where most of the metal flexures have bent up > so > the head no longer makes contact with the media. Sony doesn't seem to have > done > a very good job of the mechanical design on this. Maybe that's another reason why those drives were shipped with those yellow disklike things -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Jul 24 19:01:50 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 02:01:50 +0200 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: <5400C050-8FDE-4371-92E9-3730280212FC@shiresoft.com> References: <20110723214127.d4b34732.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110724224308.5d24b9d8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5400C050-8FDE-4371-92E9-3730280212FC@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <20110725020150.40d5f1e4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 24 Jul 2011 16:21:39 -0700 Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Depends. Heads aren't *that* hard to replace. I know. I had a quick look at the maintenance manual. > However, interchange between your drive and others can be an issue Interchangeability is no issue. I have only one drive and don't need to read / write other peoples media. > > Plan B: Get a RL11 and connect my knowen to work RL02. > That works too. RL11's aren't that hard to find. Yes. I even got an offer. I have to see how this works out. > > Plan C: Build some modernish hardware to emulate the RK05 drive. > Meh. Yes, not as much fun as real hardware, but educative. > > Or even better: Get some UniBus to SMD or ESDI controller. I have some > > nice SMD and ESDI disks around. Winchester disks are so much more > > reliable. > You can find those too. Sure. It is just a mater of keeping open eye and time. > I don't know. I haven't had all that much trouble (ie once I got them working) with RK05s or RL01/2s. RK05s are pretty reliable and built like a tank so other than messing up the heads by doing something silly, it's a pretty reliable beast. The problem is the missuse by the previous owner, bad storage conditions and time. Meanwhile I removed the damaged disk from the RK05. If I am in real luck the headcrash may be before track 0. So the disk may be usable. But the drive needs a tough cleaning. The foam used as prefilter and gasket is brittle. The duct from the absolute filter to the cartridge is brittle too and has fallen into pieces already. I need at least replacements for the pre- and absolute filter and the cartridge duct. I did a quick smoke test with the Tektronix 4012. Unfortunately it doesn't work. The tube lights up in green, as usual, but can't be cleared. The phosphor is dameged on the right edge and there are quite some signs of bun in. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jul 24 19:02:32 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 17:02:32 -0700 Subject: Anyone have experience working on Apple 800K drives? In-Reply-To: References: <4E2CABBA.5010809@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E2CB298.6040401@bitsavers.org> On 7/24/11 4:46 PM, David Griffith wrote: > Maybe that's another reason why those drives were shipped with those yellow disklike things > That's needed to keep the heads from hitting each other. Any double-sided drive should have something like that (most often cardboard). From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jul 24 19:17:52 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 17:17:52 -0700 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: <20110725020150.40d5f1e4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20110723214127.d4b34732.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110724224308.5d24b9d8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5400C050-8FDE-4371-92E9-3730280212FC@shiresoft.com> <20110725020150.40d5f1e4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4E2CB630.1060805@bitsavers.org> On 7/24/11 5:01 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > If I am in real luck the headcrash may be before track 0. So the > disk may be usable. Throw it away. It is not worth messing with a platter that has visble damage. The head will extend almost all the way back to the edge of the platter at track 0. There's no way it's going to fly if there is any physical damage on the platter. I've dealt with literally hundreds of 2315 style packs. 12 sector packs are not THAT difficult to find. Even one tar-looking smudge can crash the heads again. If there are no scratches on the ceramic after you clean them, the heads will probably be OK. 2.5 mb heads are pretty tough. The heads and disk surfaces HAVE to be absolutely clean, through. No smudges, no scratches. There should be no funny little noises as the heads move across the surface. From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jul 24 20:38:36 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 19:38:36 -0600 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: <20110725020150.40d5f1e4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20110723214127.d4b34732.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110724224308.5d24b9d8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5400C050-8FDE-4371-92E9-3730280212FC@shiresoft.com> <20110725020150.40d5f1e4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: In article <20110725020150.40d5f1e4.jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, Jochen Kunz writes: > I did a quick smoke test with the Tektronix 4012. Unfortunately it > doesn't work. The tube lights up in green, as usual, but can't be > cleared. The phosphor is dameged on the right edge and there are quite > some signs of bun in. So pressing the PAGE key does nothing? That should clear the screen. How long did you let it warm up before concluding that the screen won't clear? I'd give it 30 minutes before reaching a conclusion that its horked for good. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From tosteve at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 20:57:45 2011 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (tosteve at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 18:57:45 -0700 Subject: Old computer magazines available Message-ID: <67805783-6C08-4FDD-954F-A03161602CD2@yahoo.com> This guy is going to give me boxes of these old magazines. If there are any you want, I can mail them media rate, or you can pick-up in southern California 92656. I don't really want to pick through them looking for specific issues, though. Byte magazine 80 Micro-C Communications of the ACM ACM Computing Surveys ACM Sigart Kilobaud Microcomputing Computational Linguistics Scientific American '60s Sent from Steve's iPhone. From rborsuk at colourfull.com Sun Jul 24 21:34:39 2011 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 22:34:39 -0400 Subject: Old computer magazines available In-Reply-To: <67805783-6C08-4FDD-954F-A03161602CD2@yahoo.com> References: <67805783-6C08-4FDD-954F-A03161602CD2@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hey Steve, I'm interested in the kilobauds. Rob Borsuk' 36885 Main St. Port Huron, MI. 48047 Just let me know if someone beat me / or what the cost is. Thanks Rob On Jul 24, 2011, at 9:57 PM, tosteve at yahoo.com wrote: > This guy is going to give me boxes of these old magazines. > If there are any you want, I can mail them media rate, or you can pick-up in southern California 92656. > I don't really want to pick through them looking for specific issues, though. > > Byte magazine > 80 Micro-C > Communications of the ACM > ACM Computing Surveys > ACM Sigart > Kilobaud Microcomputing > Computational Linguistics > Scientific American '60s > > > > Sent from Steve's iPhone. > > > Robert Borsuk rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations http://www.colourfull.com From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jul 24 23:01:50 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 00:01:50 -0400 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: References: <20110723214127.d4b34732.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110724224308.5d24b9d8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5400C050-8FDE-4371-92E9-3730280212FC@shiresoft.com> <20110725020150.40d5f1e4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: > How long did you let it warm up before concluding that the screen > won't clear? ?I'd give it 30 minutes before reaching a conclusion that Yes, letting a CRT "bake" for a while can do wonders. See the youtube videos of bandersentv and you will be convinced. > its horked for good. "Horked" has a different meaning here - meaning stolen. -- Will From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Jul 24 23:31:21 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 00:31:21 -0400 Subject: is this the first Pentium box IBM made? In-Reply-To: <4E2BF31A.1169.5FC63F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1311295533.3034.YahooMailClassic@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <4E29ED76.3227.2927C15@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E2BF31A.1169.5FC63F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E2CF199.5020305@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Having been at IBM and working on the PS/2 series of systems, I can >> tell you that the PS/2 systems were first with the Pentiums from IBM. >> In particular the PS/2 Model 95 was the first. It was also the first >> PS/2 to support> 16MB of RAM (I know 'cause I did the support in AIX >> PS/2 for it...was fun having a 64MB system at the time...8 8MB DIMMs). >> It was *well* before 1995 (as I moved to Austin in 1995 and hadn't >> been working on PS/2 stuff for at least 2-3 years before that). The >> ISA based machines (of which the PC330 was) came later. > > So, was the Pentium you used in the 95 a P24T? I'm just trying to > get a handle on the order of things. The PS/2 guide: > > http://www.lenovo.com/psref/pdf/ps2book.pdf > > seems to say that all PS/2s used the P24T CPU, whose "official" Intel > release date was in 1995, whereas the original P5 Pentium was > available in 1993. The PS/2 Server 95 *definitely* didn't use the Pentium Overdrive. The machines were available with 60MHz and 66MHz P5 chips. Later, there was added a Type-IV CPU complex which came with a 90MHz P54C, a different CPU socket (obviously) and different firmware. The document you linked has none of the "server grade" PS/2s in it. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Jul 24 23:40:28 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 00:40:28 -0400 Subject: is this the first Pentium box IBM made? In-Reply-To: <6B23C037-014C-4705-BAFF-0BCB516B00E8@shiresoft.com> References: <1311295533.3034.YahooMailClassic@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <4E29ED76.3227.2927C15@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E2BF31A.1169.5FC63F@cclist.sydex.com> <6B23C037-014C-4705-BAFF-0BCB516B00E8@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <4E2CF3BC.7000701@gmail.com> Guy Sotomayor wrote: > The PS/2 M90 and M95 had replaceable processor cards and originally > shipped with 486/50s in late 1990. They were updated periodically > with options for different processors. It's not clear when they > would have announced an update to run with a Pentium but I did find a > reference to the M95 server shipping with a P60 pentium in 8/93 and a > P66 pentium in 9/93. The 486DX-50 was the Type-III complex. The Model 90/95 came out way before that. The Type-0 complex had a 486-20 and no level 2 cache. The Type-I complex had a 486DX-25 and an optional cache daughterboard. The Type-II complex had on-board cache and a 486DX2-50. The Type-III had on-board cache and a 486DX-50 (yes, the one with the 50MHz core clock, single-clocked). The Type-IV had either a 60MHz or 66MHz Pentium P5. Sometimes referred to as a Type-IVa, but referred to by IBM as just another Type-IV, was a CPU complex with a 90MHz P54C Pentium and updated firmware. These are still worth a good chunk of change. Actually, even the Type-III is worth a bit of money, because some people have had luck with running AMD Am5x86-P75 chips (which have a 4x clock multiplier) at 200MHz using a 50MHz core clock using a big heatsink with a fan on it. I have examples of all this hardware in my collection. Peace... Sridhar From james at machineroom.info Sun Jul 24 05:54:03 2011 From: james at machineroom.info (James Wilson) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 11:54:03 +0100 Subject: MINC-11 boot problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E2BF9CB.6040501@machineroom.info> So I started checking caps but I've realised I'm out of my depth when it comes to analogue electronics. I'll come back to it though. For now I've substituted a modern peecee PSU (with the intention of putting the proper DEC PSU back in place when I'm sure the rest of the system is running). I also built a small circuit to bring BPOK and BDCOK up at the right times (http://home.windstream.net/engdahl/powerup_reset_circuit.htm). What I'm not seeing is any terminal output. I discovered there's a small 2A fuse on the quad serial card (DLV11-J) which had blown. Replaced this and now have the correct -12V on that card. Still no activity on Tx though. I've double checked all the jumpers on that card, port 3 is set for the console address, 9600 baud, RS232. I've checked the Tx pin on the UART and no activity there also, so it's not a line driver issue. Bear in mind I'm new to the PDP-11 so all this is taking some time since I'm learning as I go ;) Digging a little further I found the ODT is actually implemented as microcode on the CPU (M7270/KD11). There's a pair of jumpers on the CPU card that determine the boot method and I've changed these to boot straight to ODT. I'm trying to build the simplest possible system at the moment to get anything working. If I've understood corectly then just having the CPU+serial card should get me the '@' ODT prompt. It doesn't. I've tried other combinations of CPU+memory+serial+BDV etc. Other things I've checked : The CPU has all 4 clocks and correct voltages. The UARTs have clock and correct voltages. The bus lines are being pulled high (by the CPU card I think). Probing further the bus signals BSYNCL, BDOUTL etc. all seem to be pulsing so _something_ is happening. What I have noticed and doesn't seem right is during a BDOUTL cycle some of the data/address (BDALxL) lines are oscillating at high frequency, i.e. for the whole period that BDOUTL is low the BDALxL lines oscillate (around 20-30 times per BDOUTL period). Does anyone have any ideas what could be wrong here? Cheers, James On 13/07/2011 19:27, Tony Duell wrote: >> On 09/07/2011 21:13, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> Looks like the +12V startup and -12V (actually -15) are fine. I'm >>> Have you checked these with a 'scope? Excessive ripple on a supply line >>> could cause exactly the fault you are seeing. >>> >>> Ho >> Thanks Tony, you caused me to double check things...and it looks like >> there's a couple of spikes on the ground of about 4Vp-p and 3Vp-p @ > Hang on a second. What is the 'scope probe ground lead connected to, and > what is the 'scope probe tip connected to? > > If the 'scope ground lead is connected to the 0V rail and you are seeing > 4V spikes on something else that's supposed to 'ground' (i.e. also > connected to the 0V rail) then either you have a very serious ground > bounce problem or there's an open-circuit somewhere. > >> 32Khz which was throwing all my measurements out. I'm guessing a cap, >> does that sound about right? > 32kHz sounds to me like the switching frequency. If you're getting ripple > at that freqeucny, I would suspect the capactiros on the DC output side > of hte rectifiers. > > -tony > From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Jul 25 01:47:57 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 08:47:57 +0200 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: <4E2CB630.1060805@bitsavers.org> References: <20110723214127.d4b34732.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110724224308.5d24b9d8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5400C050-8FDE-4371-92E9-3730280212FC@shiresoft.com> <20110725020150.40d5f1e4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4E2CB630.1060805@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20110725084757.ba04baa8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 24 Jul 2011 17:17:52 -0700 Al Kossow wrote: > Throw it away. No. I'll reuse it as decoration for my office at work. Will look nice alongside that 9 track tape on the wall. I already have a platter from a 14" disk with head crashes hanging there. Now my colleagues can see how such platters where packed. :-) > It is not worth messing with a platter that has visble damage. OK. > Even one tar-looking smudge can crash the heads again. There is a nice picture in the manual. It shows different types of dirt in relation to the flying height of the heads... > If there are no scratches on the ceramic after you clean them, the heads will > probably be OK. 2.5 mb heads are pretty tough. I'll see. It will take some time until I get back to the drive due to the replacements needed. > There should be no funny little noises as the heads move across the surface. Obviously. No metal-cutting data storage... ;-) -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Jul 25 02:35:48 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 09:35:48 +0200 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: References: <20110723214127.d4b34732.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110724224308.5d24b9d8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5400C050-8FDE-4371-92E9-3730280212FC@shiresoft.com> <20110725020150.40d5f1e4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20110725093548.de68acc7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 24 Jul 2011 19:38:36 -0600 Richard wrote: > So pressing the PAGE key does nothing? Nothing. > That should clear the screen. It should, but it doesn't. > How long did you let it warm up before concluding that the screen > won't clear? A few minutes. > I'd give it 30 minutes before reaching a conclusion that > its horked for good. I did this now but it didn't change anything. My 4006-1 needs less then a minute to be usable. I typed on the keyboard in local mode, nothing happens. I placed a loop back connection on the RS232 in line mode, nothing happens. At least I get some garbled characters on my computer when I connect the terminal. (I tried baud rates from 2400 to 38400.) So it is not completely dead. Unfortunately bitsavers has docs on the 4010 and 4014, but not the 4012. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 08:51:35 2011 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 06:51:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Auction Hunters find a Classic Computer and totally dismiss it Message-ID: <1311601895.8711.YahooMailClassic@web113520.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Does anyone watch the TV Show "Auction Hunters". Last night they found a storage unit with some classic computers and they don't even notice. I put together a quick article on the episode.. There is one computer that is easily recognizable, the other I don't know what it is. Here is the link to the article http://8bitaficionado.com/2011/07/25/auction-hunters-totally-miss-out-on-the-collectible-computers-they-have/ From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon Jul 25 09:06:13 2011 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 10:06:13 -0400 Subject: Auction Hunters find a Classic Computer and totally dismiss it In-Reply-To: <1311601895.8711.YahooMailClassic@web113520.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1311601895.8711.YahooMailClassic@web113520.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <024f01cc4ad4$0433d650$0c9b82f0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Yup, saw it. I created a "spike" account just to complain. Others should join in. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Christian Liendo > Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 9:52 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Auction Hunters find a Classic Computer and totally dismiss it > > Does anyone watch the TV Show "Auction Hunters". Last night they found > a storage unit with some classic computers and they don't even notice. > > I put together a quick article on the episode.. There is one computer > that is easily recognizable, the other I don't know what it is. > > Here is the link to the article > > http://8bitaficionado.com/2011/07/25/auction-hunters-totally-miss-out- > on-the-collectible-computers-they-have/ > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1518/3787 - Release Date: 07/25/11 From oe5ewl at gmail.com Mon Jul 25 09:42:16 2011 From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 16:42:16 +0200 Subject: Auction Hunters find a Classic Computer and totally dismiss it In-Reply-To: <4e2d789d.e44dec0a.1d3b.1944SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> References: <1311601895.8711.YahooMailClassic@web113520.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4e2d789d.e44dec0a.1d3b.1944SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: that hurts. would be a nice find. i assume they would have found plenty of takers for the equipment if they had done some research about the stuff. the disk-packs alone would have been sold nicely. -- Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL Operating System Collector Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com Homepage: www.eichberger.org 2011/7/25 Bill Sudbrink > Yup, saw it. I created a "spike" account just to complain. Others > should join in. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Christian Liendo > > Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 9:52 AM > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Auction Hunters find a Classic Computer and totally dismiss it > > > > Does anyone watch the TV Show "Auction Hunters". Last night they found > > a storage unit with some classic computers and they don't even notice. > > > > I put together a quick article on the episode.. There is one computer > > that is easily recognizable, the other I don't know what it is. > > > > Here is the link to the article > > > > http://8bitaficionado.com/2011/07/25/auction-hunters-totally-miss-out- > > on-the-collectible-computers-they-have/ > > ----- > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1518/3787 - Release Date: 07/25/11 > > From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Jul 25 09:56:47 2011 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 07:56:47 -0700 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: <4E2CB630.1060805@bitsavers.org> References: <20110723214127.d4b34732.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110724224308.5d24b9d8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5400C050-8FDE-4371-92E9-3730280212FC@shiresoft.com> <20110725020150.40d5f1e4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4E2CB630.1060805@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <9DDA0E84-8B12-4002-9FD6-4807C8964F81@shiresoft.com> On Jul 24, 2011, at 5:17 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 7/24/11 5:01 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: >> If I am in real luck the headcrash may be before track 0. So the >> disk may be usable. > > Throw it away. It is not worth messing with a platter that has visble damage. > The head will extend almost all the way back to the edge of the platter at > track 0. There's no way it's going to fly if there is any physical damage > on the platter. I've dealt with literally hundreds of 2315 style packs. > > 12 sector packs are not THAT difficult to find. > > Even one tar-looking smudge can crash the heads again. > > If there are no scratches on the ceramic after you clean them, the heads will > probably be OK. 2.5 mb heads are pretty tough. The heads and disk surfaces > HAVE to be absolutely clean, through. No smudges, no scratches. There should > be no funny little noises as the heads move across the surface. Yea, I had assumed that he would through the pack away. The drive is definitely salvageable. Just make sure the heads are *clean*. That's why I talked about re-alignment. The easiest way to make sure that the heads are clean is to remove them from the drive. Allows you to make a good inspection (under magnification) that you've cleaned them up properly and there aren't any remaining bits of the old pack stuck to them. As far as 12 sector packs, I've literally hundreds of them. So I know they're not that hard to find. :-) TTFN - Guy From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jul 25 10:28:07 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 08:28:07 -0700 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: <20110725084757.ba04baa8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20110723214127.d4b34732.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110724224308.5d24b9d8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5400C050-8FDE-4371-92E9-3730280212FC@shiresoft.com> <20110725020150.40d5f1e4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4E2CB630.1060805@bitsavers.org> <20110725084757.ba04baa8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4E2D8B87.4020107@bitsavers.org> On 7/24/11 11:47 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Sun, 24 Jul 2011 17:17:52 -0700 > Al Kossow wrote: >> There should be no funny little noises as the heads move across the surface. > Obviously. No metal-cutting data storage... ;-) A smudge will cause head-disk interference. Those were the noises I was talking about. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jul 25 15:22:14 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 14:22:14 -0600 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: <20110725093548.de68acc7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20110723214127.d4b34732.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110724224308.5d24b9d8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5400C050-8FDE-4371-92E9-3730280212FC@shiresoft.com> <20110725020150.40d5f1e4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110725093548.de68acc7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: In article <20110725093548.de68acc7.jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, Jochen Kunz writes: > On Sun, 24 Jul 2011 19:38:36 -0600 > Richard wrote: > > > So pressing the PAGE key does nothing? > Nothing. > > > That should clear the screen. > It should, but it doesn't. > > > How long did you let it warm up before concluding that the screen > > won't clear? > A few minutes. > > > I'd give it 30 minutes before reaching a conclusion that > > its horked for good. > I did this now but it didn't change anything. My 4006-1 needs less then > a minute to be usable. I typed on the keyboard in local mode, nothing > happens. This could mean that you have a disconnect somewhere between the keyboard and the rest of the circuitry, which means its not hearing your PAGE keystrokes. > I placed a loop back connection on the RS232 in line mode, > nothing happens. At least I get some garbled characters on my computer > when I connect the terminal. (I tried baud rates from 2400 to 38400.) > So it is not completely dead. Unfortunately bitsavers has docs on the > 4010 and 4014, but not the 4012. Look at the 4010 service manual and compare the board numbers to those in your machine. The 4012 is not *that* different from a 4010 and probably shares some boards in common with the 4010. A 4010 only does 9600 baud max IIRC, so you should check the strap/knob settings on the 4012 to determine the right baud rate. Its probably set for 300 or 1200 baud. I wouldn't give up on this terminal just yet. The 401x machines are all small-scale integration fixed logic, no microprocessor and no microcode. Just simple state machines and logic. I've studied the diagrams and its not that complicated if you just take some time to study it and work through the problem logically. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 25 15:20:34 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 21:20:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: MINC-11 boot problems In-Reply-To: <4E2BF9CB.6040501@machineroom.info> from "James Wilson" at Jul 24, 11 11:54:03 am Message-ID: > > So I started checking caps but I've realised I'm out of my depth when it > comes to analogue electronics. I'll come back to it though. I hope so... > What I'm not seeing is any terminal output. I discovered there's a small > 2A fuse on the quad serial card (DLV11-J) which had blown. Replaced this > and now have the correct -12V on that card. Still no activity on Tx > though. I've double checked all the jumpers on that card, port 3 is set > for the console address, 9600 baud, RS232. I've checked the Tx pin on > the UART and no activity there also, so it's not a line driver issue. Is anything evr being written to the UART? There is a tranmit register load input (IIRC) that should pulse when the CPU write to the UART chip. Does it? > > Bear in mind I'm new to the PDP-11 so all this is taking some time since Now My mINC has a PDP11/45 CPU. No, that's not a typo. I have a MINC chassis (for the IBV11 and MINC modules) hung off a DW11B on a PDP11/45 Unibus. This means I know less about the 11/03 CPU than perhaps I should od., > I'm learning as I go ;) Digging a little further I found the ODT is > actually implemented as microcode on the CPU (M7270/KD11). There's a > pair of jumpers on the CPU card that determine the boot method and I've > changed these to boot straight to ODT. I'm trying to build the simplest > possible system at the moment to get anything working. If I've > understood corectly then just having the CPU+serial card should get me > the '@' ODT prompt. It doesn't. I've tried other combinations of > CPU+memory+serial+BDV etc. I think ou need some RAM memory for it to work properly. I don;t think the grant chains are an issue at this point, but I'd put the CPU in the far right slot (where it was origianly), then memory immediately to the left of itm then the serial board -- with no gaps between them. The MINC backplane is one with CD interconnect, and all the dual-height boards go in the rear pair of connectors. > > Other things I've checked : The CPU has all 4 clocks and correct > voltages. The UARTs have clock and correct voltages. The bus lines are > being pulled high (by the CPU card I think). > Probing further the bus signals BSYNCL, BDOUTL etc. all seem to be > pulsing so _something_ is happening. What I have noticed and doesn't > seem right is during a BDOUTL cycle some of the data/address (BDALxL) > lines are oscillating at high frequency, i.e. for the whole period that > BDOUTL is low the BDALxL lines oscillate (around 20-30 times per BDOUTL > period). Does anyone have any ideas what could be wrong here? That can't be right. They should be stable throughout the cycle. When you say 'some', is there anything in common between them (are they all driven by thge same IC which might be malfucntioing)? And what is the frequency (and does it relate to other frequencies in the machine, like ther master clock)? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 25 15:37:16 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 21:37:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: <20110724224308.5d24b9d8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Jul 24, 11 10:43:08 pm Message-ID: > > > > Probably. I'll see. > > OK, remvoe the top cover of the RK05. > I did this a few minutes ago. As expected, the previous owner > transported the drive without lock and the medium inserted. Even worse: > He powered it up in this state. There is a big headcrash. I.e. Track 0 > has no longer any oxide... :-( At least I'll need a new medium. THe consolation is that this damage wasn't done by _you_ forgetting the shipping lock. > Probably heads? Or can the heads be cleaned and reused? RK05 heads will stand lot of abuse. If it were my drive, I'd remove them cna clean them up. If they clean up properly and look undamaged, I'd refit them and put in a scratch pack. If they fly without crashing, I'd align them. Problem is, you need the alignment pack if you remove the heads.I don;t think you can clean them proeprl without removing them from the positioner either. > Or even better: Get some UniBus to SMD or ESDI controller. I have some > nice SMD and ESDI disks around. Winchester disks are so much more > reliable. And RK05s are so much mroe repairable... This is a common issue. actually/. I'd much ratehr have something that needs minor repairs every 6 months than somethign that'll run for 5 years but nees major work (or complete replacement) when it does fail. So I'll stick to my RKs and RLs... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 25 15:41:42 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 21:41:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone have experience working on Apple 800K drives? In-Reply-To: <4E2CABBA.5010809@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Jul 24, 11 04:33:14 pm Message-ID: Not the Apple one, but I have quite a bit of experience in working on the Sony half-0height drive used in the HP9114B, later HP9123s, etc. It's very similar mechanically. > > The top head mechanism seems exceptionally fragile. Yes, it is on most 3.5" drives, actually. > I went though a stack of drives where most of the metal flexures have bent up so > the head no longer makes contact with the media. Sony doesn't seem to have done > a very good job of the mechanical design on this. This normally happens when somebody pushes a paperclip in the ejsct hole and doesn't push it in far enough. The disk ejects, but the mechansims doesn't latch up. If you now pull the disk out, you wreck the upper head mounting. The full-height drives suffer from hardened grease o nthe ejcted mechansim which casues this problem a lot. HP enthusisats know that one of old. The half-height mechansim doesn't, but you need to make sure it's latched befroe pulling the disk out. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 25 15:45:50 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 21:45:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: <20110725020150.40d5f1e4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Jul 25, 11 02:01:50 am Message-ID: > > On Sun, 24 Jul 2011 16:21:39 -0700 > Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > > Depends. Heads aren't *that* hard to replace. > I know. I had a quick look at the maintenance manual. > > > However, interchange between your drive and others can be an issue > Interchangeability is no issue. I have only one drive and don't need to > read / write other peoples media. In which case, screw in the adjustment screws so they just touch the tails of the heads. Lock them in that position, and remove the heads. Clean thm and put them back without touching the adjusting screws. It's not close enough for interchangablilty, but if the heads are good you'll be able to foramt, read and write with it. [...] > conditions and time. Meanwhile I removed the damaged disk from the > RK05. If I am in real luck the headcrash may be before track 0. So the > disk may be usable. But the drive needs a tough cleaning. The foam used Err no!. If the disk is damaged, the heads will not fly over it, and the ehads load at th eoutside edge of the disk. If that area of the disk is damaged, the ehads will crash every time, and will be damaged. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 25 15:48:46 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 21:48:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Jul 24, 11 07:38:36 pm Message-ID: [Tek 4012] > How long did you let it warm up before concluding that the screen > won't clear? I'd give it 30 minutes before reaching a conclusion that > its horked for good. Hav you checked the obvious -- the power supply votlags, the CRT electrode volatage, whether the heaters (write gun and flood guns) are glowing, etc? -tony From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 11:30:41 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 09:30:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: is this the first Pentium box IBM made? In-Reply-To: <4E2BF31A.1169.5FC63F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1311611441.24999.YahooMailClassic@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 7/24/11, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I don't doubt that you had early access to the Pentium CPUs > at IBM, > but that doesn't quite settle the issue.? We were > fooling with? pre- > release steppings of the 80286 when IBM was shipping 64K > 5150s with > the 8088. Which is a different discussion altogether. I neither care what systems utilized overdrive processors (in a discussion of Pentium "firsts") - you can always retrofit a box w/some *official* or aftermarket cpu upgrade (for instance there was a 3rd party 486 retrofit for 286 based machines, though likely came out a good while after _actual_ 486 boxes were shipping, and even machines like the ALR 386 offering was supposedly geared towards running a 486, but I don't know the details. Maybe it just had the main guts on a card). But...since you brought it up - and this is a vintage/historic forum, I doubt I've received answers to the questions of which were the earliest machines/upgrades/cpu cards/sbc's used the 8086/8 and 80286 uPs. As far as IBM is concerned, I suppose the Displaywriter is the first 8088 based system. That would be a relevant discussion. Another question - did 8086/8 upgrades to 8085s predate from the ground up 8086/8 based boards? Since most of the support chips are interchangeable, I would think yes. But personally I don't know of any. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Jul 25 16:17:43 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 23:17:43 +0200 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: References: <20110723214127.d4b34732.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110724224308.5d24b9d8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5400C050-8FDE-4371-92E9-3730280212FC@shiresoft.com> <20110725020150.40d5f1e4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110725093548.de68acc7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20110725231743.685ff827.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 25 Jul 2011 14:22:14 -0600 Richard wrote: [Tektronix 4012] > I wouldn't give up on this terminal just yet. Surely not! The problem is simply that I have three babys to care about at the moment: The RK05, the 11/34a and the 4012. I am more or less finished with the RK05 for the moment due to the damaged medium. More when I get a new medium... I still haven't looked at the 11/34a. Will do some PSU testing tomorow before I power up the logic. If the 11/34a is well and alive I'll return to the 4012. It would be really nice to get it back to live. Maybe I'll replace the tube of the 4012 with the tube of the 4006. They look the same, but the 4006 tube isn't damaged. Would it be a sacrilege to use a HP scope to repair a Tektronix terminal. (I have only HP scops.) ;-) -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 25 16:52:09 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 17:52:09 -0400 Subject: MINC-11 boot problems In-Reply-To: References: <4E2BF9CB.6040501@machineroom.info> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 4:20 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> What I'm not seeing is any terminal output. I discovered there's a small >> 2A fuse on the quad serial card (DLV11-J) which had blown. Replaced this >> and now have the correct -12V on that card. Important (I'm sure the EIA drivers/receivers won't be happy without that). >> Still no activity on Tx >> though. I've double checked all the jumpers on that card, port 3 is set >> for the console address, 9600 baud, RS232. I've checked the Tx pin on >> the UART and no activity there also, so it's not a line driver issue. Good to check (I've occasionally run into bad line receivers on DEC gear (probably caused by ESD), but rarely have I seen bad line drivers). >> Bear in mind I'm new to the PDP-11 so all this is taking some time since >> I'm learning as I go... >> I'm trying to build the simplest >> possible system at the moment to get anything ?working. If I've >> understood corectly then just having the CPU+serial card should get me >> the '@' ODT prompt. It doesn't. I've tried other combinations of >> CPU+memory+serial+BDV etc. > > I think ou need some RAM memory for it to work properly. AFAIK, that is correct. > I don;t think > the grant chains are an issue at this point, but I'd put the CPU in the > far right slot (where it was origianly), then memory immediately to the > left of itm then the serial board -- with no gaps between them. Yep. Don't worry about the long gap between the serial board and the BDV-11 - there's nothing on it that needs granting. > The MINC > backplane is one with CD interconnect, and all the dual-height boards go > in the rear pair of connectors. For a picture of the "ideal" MINC layout, have a look at page 8... http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/minc/MP00652_MNC11_1978.pdf -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 25 17:02:58 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 15:02:58 -0700 Subject: is this the first Pentium box IBM made? In-Reply-To: <1311611441.24999.YahooMailClassic@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <4E2BF31A.1169.5FC63F@cclist.sydex.com>, <1311611441.24999.YahooMailClassic@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E2D85A2.21393.1722032@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Jul 2011 at 9:30, Chris M wrote: > > > --- On Sun, 7/24/11, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > I don't doubt that you had early access to the Pentium CPUs > > at IBM, > > but that doesn't quite settle the issue.? We were > > fooling with? pre- > > release steppings of the 80286 when IBM was shipping 64K > > 5150s with > > the 8088. > But...since you brought it up - and this is a vintage/historic forum, > I doubt I've received answers to the questions of which were the > earliest machines/upgrades/cpu cards/sbc's used the 8086/8 and 80286 > uPs. As far as IBM is concerned, I suppose the Displaywriter is the > first 8088 based system. The DW was an 8086 system, not 8088. > That would be a relevant discussion. Another question - did 8086/8 > upgrades to 8085s predate from the ground up 8086/8 based boards? The first 8086 board reaching the market for sale would probably be the Intel SDK-86. The S-100 crowd closely on, with SCP's board, Godbout and others. Bill Godbout's notable because I think he may have been the first to integrate an 8088 and 8085 on the same S-100 board. The 8086 was a hard sell to those wating for a real 16-bit CPU, not a bankswitching 8085 on steriods. I wonder if IBM hadn't used it in the 5150 if it would have been anything more than a footnote. Even our sales guy couldn't mention the 8086 without talking about the "Real Soon Now" 432 chipset. Has anyone benchmarked a Z80H at 8 MHz against an 8088 at 4.77 MHz? --Chuck From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Jul 25 17:07:53 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 00:07:53 +0200 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: References: <20110725020150.40d5f1e4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20110726000753.1c1bdd54.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 25 Jul 2011 21:45:50 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Err no!. If the disk is damaged, the heads will not fly over it, and the > ehads load at th eoutside edge of the disk. If that area of the disk is > damaged, the ehads will crash every time, and will be damaged. Without knowing better, the previous owner may have done this already... Anyway: I got an offer for a RL11. So I can get the machine up with my RL02. - If the actual machine is OK. I still have to check the 11/34a CPU. If the CPU and RAM doesn't work I have more serious problems then the disk! -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Jul 25 17:27:42 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 00:27:42 +0200 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110726002742.44f3bc3c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 25 Jul 2011 21:48:46 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Hav you checked the obvious -- the power supply votlags, the CRT > electrode volatage, whether the heaters (write gun and flood guns) are > glowing, etc? Not really. First I had to clean the rest of the machine, get the stuff back into the rack and out of my hallway... I get a glow on the tube and upon power off I see a bright dot in the center of the tube. So it sholdn't be a fatal fault like a broken heater. I really want to get this back to live, but I have no time at the moment. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From useddec at gmail.com Mon Jul 25 18:02:02 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 18:02:02 -0500 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: <20110725231743.685ff827.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20110723214127.d4b34732.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110724224308.5d24b9d8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5400C050-8FDE-4371-92E9-3730280212FC@shiresoft.com> <20110725020150.40d5f1e4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110725093548.de68acc7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110725231743.685ff827.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: If you remove the heads, then you have to align them. Several times in the field I have unfolded a tex pad, placed it between the heads and hand launched them. Carefully sliding the pad back and forth cleans the heads and most of the time removes any oxide. A small tool can be used for stubborn oxide. I haven't read all of the replies, but is the pack beyond cleaning? Do you have access to another? Paul On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 4:17 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Mon, 25 Jul 2011 14:22:14 -0600 > Richard wrote: > > [Tektronix 4012] >> I wouldn't give up on this terminal just yet. > Surely not! The problem is simply that I have three babys to care about > at the moment: The RK05, the 11/34a and the 4012. I am more or less > finished with the RK05 for the moment due to the damaged medium. More > when I get a new medium... I still haven't looked at the 11/34a. Will do > some PSU testing tomorow before I power up the logic. If the 11/34a is > well and alive I'll return to the 4012. It would be really nice to get > it back to live. Maybe I'll replace the tube of the 4012 with the tube > of the 4006. They look the same, but the 4006 tube isn't damaged. > > Would it be a sacrilege to use a HP scope to repair a Tektronix > terminal. (I have only HP scops.) ;-) > -- > > > \end{Jochen} > > \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Jul 25 22:39:56 2011 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 22:39:56 -0500 Subject: testing Message-ID: <92C86F50B90046F49C6008B7D2D7BFC0@osa.local> test 1 2 3 From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Jul 25 22:30:28 2011 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 22:30:28 -0500 Subject: test Message-ID: <4C03522FAD464129BC3F84EB2CA3D6BF@osa.local> test... a reply or two please :) From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jul 25 23:00:15 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 00:00:15 -0400 Subject: testing In-Reply-To: <92C86F50B90046F49C6008B7D2D7BFC0@osa.local> References: <92C86F50B90046F49C6008B7D2D7BFC0@osa.local> Message-ID: <4E2E3BCF.5090106@neurotica.com> On 07/25/2011 11:39 PM, Jay West wrote: > test 1 2 3 It's broken. This message didn't make it through. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Mon Jul 25 23:01:54 2011 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 14:01:54 +1000 Subject: testing In-Reply-To: <92C86F50B90046F49C6008B7D2D7BFC0@osa.local> References: <92C86F50B90046F49C6008B7D2D7BFC0@osa.local> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 1:39 PM, Jay West wrote: > test 1 2 3 As requested by JW via IRC here is the reply... From cvisors at gmail.com Mon Jul 25 23:02:15 2011 From: cvisors at gmail.com (Ivy Gardiner) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 14:02:15 +1000 Subject: test In-Reply-To: <4C03522FAD464129BC3F84EB2CA3D6BF@osa.local> References: <4C03522FAD464129BC3F84EB2CA3D6BF@osa.local> Message-ID: Test received. On Jul 26, 2011 2:01 PM, "Jay West" wrote: > test... a reply or two please :) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 25 23:02:49 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 23:02:49 -0500 Subject: test In-Reply-To: <4C03522FAD464129BC3F84EB2CA3D6BF@osa.local> References: <4C03522FAD464129BC3F84EB2CA3D6BF@osa.local> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 10:30 PM, Jay West wrote: > test... a reply or two please :) One. -ethan From doc at vaxen.net Mon Jul 25 23:02:51 2011 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 23:02:51 -0500 Subject: test In-Reply-To: <4C03522FAD464129BC3F84EB2CA3D6BF@osa.local> References: <4C03522FAD464129BC3F84EB2CA3D6BF@osa.local> Message-ID: <4E2E3C6B.1090902@vaxen.net> Jay West wrote: > test... a reply or two please :) Responding... From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Jul 25 23:11:36 2011 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 23:11:36 -0500 Subject: upgrade status Message-ID: <9904CE8D7AFC47848958055BF85F52CD@osa.local> It appears all the classiccmp websites were moved sucessfully as well as the list itself. Everything went to a temp machine, so that I can replace all the drives/controller and reload the ccmp server from scratch without extended downtime. Let me know if there's any issues, and I'll keep you posted. J From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Jul 25 23:18:35 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 00:18:35 -0400 Subject: test References: <4C03522FAD464129BC3F84EB2CA3D6BF@osa.local> Message-ID: <7BEDC3F52A2944359E949ABCEE0A61BB@dell8300> Upgrades or something broken? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 11:30 PM Subject: test test... a reply or two please :) From innfoclassics at gmail.com Tue Jul 26 02:01:49 2011 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 00:01:49 -0700 Subject: ebay: Tektronix 8310 microprocessor development unit (Goldendale, WA) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 12:49 PM, Paxton Hoag wrote: >> It has all the probes and manuals, which is more than is usually offered >> for these things on ebay. ?Looks a little dusty/dirty, but otherwise appears >> to be in working order. >> >> Seller wants $10 for it, which is probably less than scrap value. I missed the closing and it sold for less than scrap. I hope someone on the list got it. I am going to follow up with the seller. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Jul 26 03:01:51 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 10:01:51 +0200 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: References: <20110723214127.d4b34732.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110724224308.5d24b9d8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5400C050-8FDE-4371-92E9-3730280212FC@shiresoft.com> <20110725020150.40d5f1e4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110725093548.de68acc7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110725231743.685ff827.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20110726100151.46bafbb2.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 25 Jul 2011 18:02:02 -0500 Paul Anderson wrote: > If you remove the heads, then you have to align them. Obviously. > Several times in the field I have unfolded a tex pad What is a "tex pad"? Some special "magnetic head cleaning tissue"? > but is the pack beyond cleaning? Yes. The hads have scratched track 0 off the plater. > Do you have access to another? No. But I am sure I'll get one sooner or later. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From vintagecoder at aol.com Tue Jul 26 07:53:17 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 12:53:17 +0000 Subject: testing Message-ID: <1140899570-1311684798-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-790405569-@b2.c1.bise3.blackberry> Don't know about the rest of you guys, but I am getting nothing but test messages from the list. ------Original Message------ From: Dave McGuire Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ReplyTo: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: testing Sent: 26 Jul 2011 04:00 On 07/25/2011 11:39 PM, Jay West wrote: > test 1 2 3 It's broken. This message didn't make it through. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From james at machineroom.info Tue Jul 26 02:41:29 2011 From: james at machineroom.info (James Wilson) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 08:41:29 +0100 Subject: MINC-11 boot problems In-Reply-To: References: <4E2BF9CB.6040501@machineroom.info> Message-ID: <4E2E6FA9.2070207@machineroom.info> >> I don;t think >> the grant chains are an issue at this point, but I'd put the CPU in the >> far right slot (where it was origianly), then memory immediately to the >> left of itm then the serial board -- with no gaps between them. > Yep. Don't worry about the long gap between the serial board and the > BDV-11 - there's nothing on it that needs granting. > Hi Ethan, are you saying the BDV is required for a minimal system? My understanding was I should be able to start ODT without it, since it's built into the LSI-11 CPU. The CPU also provides the pull-ups for the bus. Tony - I currently have RAM installed since without it BRPLYL wasn't being asserted. I'll check the control pins on the console UART (not familiar with the 6402 but it looks pretty simple) and the cycling frequency of those BDAxL lines too. Thanks for confirming my suspicions that things aren't right. Cheers James From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 26 09:13:53 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 10:13:53 -0400 Subject: MINC-11 boot problems In-Reply-To: <4E2E6FA9.2070207@machineroom.info> References: <4E2BF9CB.6040501@machineroom.info> <4E2E6FA9.2070207@machineroom.info> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 3:41 AM, James Wilson wrote: > Hi Ethan, are you saying the BDV is required for a minimal system? My > understanding was I should be able to start ODT without it, since it's built > into the LSI-11 CPU. The CPU also provides the pull-ups for the bus. The BDV-11 is bootstrap code and bus terminators, not ODT code. The CPU provides one end of bus termination. The BDV-11 provides the other. The backplane does not have any termination of its own (unlike some enclosures like the BA23). AFAIK, you will still need the BDV-11 in that last slot. -ethan From useddec at gmail.com Tue Jul 26 13:05:18 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 13:05:18 -0500 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: <20110726100151.46bafbb2.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20110723214127.d4b34732.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110724224308.5d24b9d8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5400C050-8FDE-4371-92E9-3730280212FC@shiresoft.com> <20110725020150.40d5f1e4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110725093548.de68acc7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110725231743.685ff827.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110726100151.46bafbb2.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: TEX pad= A small foil packet with a disposable cloth of some kind with isopropel alcohol on it. On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 3:01 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Mon, 25 Jul 2011 18:02:02 -0500 > Paul Anderson wrote: > >> If you remove the heads, then you have to align them. > Obviously. > >> Several times in the field I have unfolded a tex pad > What is a "tex pad"? Some special "magnetic head cleaning tissue"? > >> but is the pack beyond cleaning? > Yes. The hads have scratched track 0 off the plater. > >> Do you have access to another? > No. But I am sure I'll get one sooner or later. > -- > > > \end{Jochen} > > \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} > > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jul 26 14:15:51 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 12:15:51 -0700 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: References: <20110723214127.d4b34732.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110724224308.5d24b9d8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5400C050-8FDE-4371-92E9-3730280212FC@shiresoft.com> <20110725020150.40d5f1e4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110725093548.de68acc7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110725231743.685ff827.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110726100151.46bafbb2.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4E2F1267.9080200@bitsavers.org> On 7/26/11 11:05 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > TEX pad= A small foil packet with a disposable cloth of some kind with > isopropel alcohol on it. > The preferred tool for cleaning heads in the field were Texsleeves. Plastic wand that looked like a tongue depressor that had a disposable cloth sleeve that slid over it. http://www.fishersci.com/ecomm/servlet/fsproductdetail?catalogId=29104&productId=805263&langId=-1&storeId=10652&distype=2&isChemical=false&fromSearch=0 describe them, though i'm not sure the catalog entry is correct since the sleeves weren't soaked in alcohol. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Jul 26 14:51:52 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 21:51:52 +0200 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: References: <20110723214127.d4b34732.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110724224308.5d24b9d8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5400C050-8FDE-4371-92E9-3730280212FC@shiresoft.com> <20110725020150.40d5f1e4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110725093548.de68acc7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110725231743.685ff827.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110726100151.46bafbb2.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20110726215152.0fd476b7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 26 Jul 2011 13:05:18 -0500 Paul Anderson wrote: > TEX pad= A small foil packet with a disposable cloth of some kind with > isopropel alcohol on it. OK. Thanks for the explanation. I didn't find anything usefull when I googled it. Unfortunately I am on the other side of The Big Pond. So I can't get exactely this stuff. But I think I can use the cleaning pads that are used for cleaning video heads and the like. That seems to be equivalent. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 26 14:57:39 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 20:57:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: <20110725231743.685ff827.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Jul 25, 11 11:17:43 pm Message-ID: > Would it be a sacrilege to use a HP scope to repair a Tektronix > terminal. (I have only HP scops.) ;-) No worse than using a Tektronix 'scope to trace a fault in an HP computer, and I'll bet many of us have done that... [Quite why you'd prefer an HP 'scope to a Tekky is beyond me, thouygh :-)] Are there people who insist on only using test equipment that was around when the device-under-repair was new? Personally, I'll use whatever I have that's appropriate, which means I'll happily work on a 1970's computer with a 1990's LogicDart. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 26 15:01:11 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 21:01:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: <20110726000753.1c1bdd54.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Jul 26, 11 00:07:53 am Message-ID: > Anyway: I got an offer for a RL11. So I can get the machine up with my > RL02. - If the actual machine is OK. I still have to check the 11/34a The RL11 is an NPR (DAM to the rest of the world) device, so when you install it, uou have to cut the jumper between pisn CA1 and CB1 on the backplane. If you dont uyou get soem very odd problems (although the magic smoke stays in the ICs...) > CPU. If the CPU and RAM doesn't work I have more serious problems then > the disk! I don't think so. The CPU and memroy boards use standard ICs. OK, many of them are no logner made, but they are not hard to find. And you don't need special alignment tools to repalce them :-). I think a logic fault is a lot easier to fix than a headcrash. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 26 15:02:40 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 21:02:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: <20110726002742.44f3bc3c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Jul 26, 11 00:27:42 am Message-ID: > Not really. First I had to clean the rest of the machine, get the stuff > back into the rack and out of my hallway... I get a glow on the tube > and upon power off I see a bright dot in the center of the tube. So it I am not very familair with these storage CRTs... How do they behave if the flood guns are operaitonal but the 'write' gun isn't? What happens if the latter has an open-circuit heater? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 26 15:11:06 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 21:11:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: from "Paul Anderson" at Jul 25, 11 06:02:02 pm Message-ID: > > If you remove the heads, then you have to align them. Several times in Only if you require the packs to be interchanageable with ones formatted on other drives, and IIRC the OP says he doesn't care about that. There are 4 allen setscrews on top of the carriage. Each head has a locking clamp screw and an adjustment screw which pushes agains the tpaered tail of the head to move it towards the spindle when you are doing an alignment. If you are goign to be refitting the same heads, I'd leave the heads locked to the carrage and carefully screw in the adjusting screws so that theyu touch the head tails. Lock the addusting screws in that position (I think running a suitable nut -- probably 4-40 or 6-32 UNC -- onto the screw will do it [1]) and then undo the clocking screws. Slide out the heads and clean/inspect. Put them hack in so that the tails are again afgains the alignemet screws. Tighten the lockign scress, remove the temorare nuts, and back out the adjustment screws a little bit. [1] You will need to get some UNC fasteners if you work on DEC machines. These are non-trivial to get in the UK, and I asusme elsewhere in Europe. I eneded up buiying them from Digikey. One other thing. No matter what the manual says, you can remvoe the positioner assembly (and for that matter the spindle) and put them back without needing to do an alignmetn. To rmeove the positioner, disconnect the head wires from teh PCB in the logic cage (through the hole in the side of the cage), unplug the positioenr coil from the servo amplifer board, and disconnect the wires from the postion transduer from the tagstrip next to the postioner (faston terminals). Take out the 3 large cap-head screws on the underside of the driv and lift the complete postioner up and out. It's al ot easier to work on it out of the drive > the field I have unfolded a tex pad, placed it between the heads and > hand launched them. Carefully sliding the pad back and forth cleans > the heads and most of the time removes any oxide. A small tool can be > used for stubborn oxide. I haven't read all of the replies, but is the > pack beyond cleaning? Do you have access to another? Alas tyhe OP's back has a serious headcrash at the outside edge... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 26 15:12:51 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 21:12:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: test In-Reply-To: <4C03522FAD464129BC3F84EB2CA3D6BF@osa.local> from "Jay West" at Jul 25, 11 10:30:28 pm Message-ID: > > test... a reply or two please :) QSL -tony From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Jul 26 17:12:16 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 17:12:16 -0500 Subject: Saddam's Atari 2600 Message-ID: I'd have preferred chrome, myself... http://dvice.com/archives/2011/07/gold-atari-2600.php From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Jul 26 17:21:57 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 00:21:57 +0200 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: References: <20110725231743.685ff827.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20110727002157.b1cbbc3c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 26 Jul 2011 20:57:39 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > [Quite why you'd prefer an HP 'scope to a Tekky is beyond me, thouygh :-)] Quite simple: I was given a HP 1740A (analog, 100 MHz, dual channel) and a HP 54720D (digital, 1.1 GHz / 2 GS/sec, three channels) for free. (Though, I don't have the active probes for the 54720D.) I rarely need a scope so I am satisfied with the HPs. :-) -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Jul 26 17:25:43 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 00:25:43 +0200 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: References: <20110726002742.44f3bc3c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20110727002543.8b55dccf.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 26 Jul 2011 21:02:40 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > I am not very familair with these storage CRTs... Neither am I. > How do they behave if the flood guns are operaitonal but the 'write' > gun isn't? What happens if the latter has an open-circuit heater? I don't know. I'll care later at the Tek terminal. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Jul 26 17:31:27 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 00:31:27 +0200 Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: References: <20110726000753.1c1bdd54.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20110727003127.f8d3c0a6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 26 Jul 2011 21:01:11 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > CPU. If the CPU and RAM doesn't work I have more serious problems then > > the disk! > I don't think so. The CPU and memroy boards use standard ICs. OK, many of > them are no logner made, but they are not hard to find. And you don't > need special alignment tools to repalce them :-). I think a logic fault > is a lot easier to fix than a headcrash. What I meant to say: The 11/34a is my one and only UNIBUS machine. If I can't get the 11/34a to work, I have no machine to connect the RK05 to. Without machine, I have no need to fix the RK05 now. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Jul 26 17:33:09 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 00:33:09 +0200 Subject: Power Ripple in DEC BA11-K Message-ID: <20110727003309.96e3a6cf.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Hi. I try to get my "new" PDP-11/34a back to live. I did a quick PSU test today with dummy loads. All voltages, LTCL, DCLO and ACLO where OK so I pluged in the logic boards. But the machine does not respond to the knobs on the programmers console. Pressing HLT + CNTRL brings the machine not to halt, but the "Bus Error" LED of the console lights up. Grant continuity cards and NPR jumpers are in place. It looks like I have the wrong bus terminator: There is a M9301-YF at the CPU side and a M930 at the other bus end. It seems I need a M9302 in place of the M930? This would explain the bus error. I took my scope to have a look at the ripple of the voltages. Here is what I got on the second +5 V PSU: X = 0.2 V / div ; Y = 2 ms / div http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/tmp/5_Volt_Ripple__y=0.2V__x=2ms.jpg X = 0.2 V / div ; Y = 10 us / div http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/tmp/5_Volt_Ripple__y=0.2V__x=10us.jpg I get similar pictures on all voltages. Both +5 V power bricks (H7441) show similar ripple as well as +15 V and -15 V. There are spikes with up to 1.2 Vpp and it is clearly related to the 50 Hz lines frequency. This doesn't look that healthy. I had a look at the BA11-K power distribution schematic. The two +5 V PSUs are independent and run of different windings of the mains transformer. I am a bit surprised to see about the same fault on all PSUs. I am no SM-PSU expert, so I am now at the point where I have to ask for advice. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Jul 27 03:19:23 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 10:19:23 +0200 Subject: A visit to berlin Message-ID: <20110727081923.GA15676@Update.UU.SE> Hi All I'm in Berlin until friday. I'm planning a visit to the Technical museum today. Is there anything else classic computing wise that I should check out? Anyone in berlin who wants to show of their collection? Kind Regards, Pontus From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Jul 27 04:31:34 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 11:31:34 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Power Ripple in DEC BA11-K In-Reply-To: <20110727003309.96e3a6cf.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20110727003309.96e3a6cf.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Jul 2011, Jochen Kunz wrote: > It looks like I have the wrong bus terminator: There is a M9301-YF at > the CPU side and a M930 at the other bus end. It seems I need a M9302 > in place of the M930? This would explain the bus error. No, a M930 is good enough for an 11/34. Of course, a M9302 would be better. > I took my scope to have a look at the ripple of the voltages. > Here is what I got on the second +5 V PSU: > X = 0.2 V / div ; Y = 2 ms / div > http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/tmp/5_Volt_Ripple__y=0.2V__x=2ms.jpg > X = 0.2 V / div ; Y = 10 us / div > http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/tmp/5_Volt_Ripple__y=0.2V__x=10us.jpg How did you connect your scope? Looks more like a ground problem with your measurement setup. > I get similar pictures on all voltages. Both +5 V power bricks (H7441) > show similar ripple as well as +15 V and -15 V. Ground problem (with your probe, not with the power supply). Christian From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Jul 27 06:14:55 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 13:14:55 +0200 Subject: Power Ripple in DEC BA11-K In-Reply-To: References: <20110727003309.96e3a6cf.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20110727131455.451f6d28.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 11:31:34 +0200 (CEST) Christian Corti wrote: > No, a M930 is good enough for an 11/34. Of course, a M9302 would be > better. I know that the M9302 has some "SACK" logic in addition to resistors, wheres the M930 has only resistors. But I don't know what this logic is good for. (UNIBUS is new to me.) > How did you connect your scope? Looks more like a ground problem with your > measurement setup. This could be the problem. I don't have an isolating transformer. GND of the scope and GND of the PDP-11 are connected to earth of the mains plug. Because of this I connected both to the same power strip. I did _not_ connect the GND clip of the probe to GND of the PDP-11. If I had done this, I would have created a ground loop. This, of course, _will_ create problems. Without connecting the GND clip of the probe my reference point was in the power strip. But if the M930 is enough and if the voltages are OK, why can't I halt the CPU with the control panel? There are NPR jumpers in the backplane and grand cards in emty slots. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From mikelee at tdh.com Wed Jul 27 09:30:58 2011 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 09:30:58 -0500 Subject: Wanted: Hayes Pocket Modem 2400 Message-ID: <4E302122.6010705@tdh.com> Not the most classic of classiccmp but by chance anyone have one of these around? No real reason or need, just want one in my collection. Or anyone know how common they were back in the day? Here's an Ad for it I found: http://www.flickr.com/photos/thedamnmushroom/5362889570/ From james at machineroom.info Wed Jul 27 02:42:42 2011 From: james at machineroom.info (James Wilson) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 08:42:42 +0100 Subject: Power Ripple in DEC BA11-K In-Reply-To: <20110727003309.96e3a6cf.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20110727003309.96e3a6cf.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4E2FC172.6050904@machineroom.info> Hi Jochen, I'm assuming that your X & Y are swapped? i.e. voltage is normally on the vertical (Y) :) I'm going through a similar learning experience with my MINC-11 at the moment. What is your scope probe ground connected to? AFAIK it should be on signal ground, i.e. the 0V that's associated with the 5V & 12V lines. Actually SMPSUs are quite simple, especially from this vintage. The trickier parts are the voltage overload and voltage good detection circuits in my experience. I'm sure others here will come back with good advice on what to check but working your way methodically through the stages of the PSU isn't that hard - just be careful and remember to allow those large caps to fully discharge before touching anything! Cheers, James On 26/07/2011 23:33, Jochen Kunz wrote: > Hi. > > I try to get my "new" PDP-11/34a back to live. I did a quick PSU test > today with dummy loads. All voltages, LTCL, DCLO and ACLO where OK so I > pluged in the logic boards. But the machine does not respond to the > knobs on the programmers console. Pressing HLT + CNTRL brings the > machine not to halt, but the "Bus Error" LED of the console lights up. > Grant continuity cards and NPR jumpers are in place. > > It looks like I have the wrong bus terminator: There is a M9301-YF at > the CPU side and a M930 at the other bus end. It seems I need a M9302 > in place of the M930? This would explain the bus error. > > I took my scope to have a look at the ripple of the voltages. > Here is what I got on the second +5 V PSU: > X = 0.2 V / div ; Y = 2 ms / div > http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/tmp/5_Volt_Ripple__y=0.2V__x=2ms.jpg > X = 0.2 V / div ; Y = 10 us / div > http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/tmp/5_Volt_Ripple__y=0.2V__x=10us.jpg > > I get similar pictures on all voltages. Both +5 V power bricks (H7441) > show similar ripple as well as +15 V and -15 V. > > There are spikes with up to 1.2 Vpp and it is clearly related to the > 50 Hz lines frequency. This doesn't look that healthy. I had a look at > the BA11-K power distribution schematic. The two +5 V PSUs are > independent and run of different windings of the mains transformer. > I am a bit surprised to see about the same fault on all PSUs. I am no > SM-PSU expert, so I am now at the point where I have to ask for advice. From james at machineroom.info Wed Jul 27 02:49:33 2011 From: james at machineroom.info (James Wilson) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 08:49:33 +0100 Subject: MINC-11 boot problems In-Reply-To: References: <4E2BF9CB.6040501@machineroom.info> <4E2E6FA9.2070207@machineroom.info> Message-ID: <4E2FC30D.9010509@machineroom.info> On 26/07/2011 15:13, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 3:41 AM, James Wilson wrote: >> Hi Ethan, are you saying the BDV is required for a minimal system? My >> understanding was I should be able to start ODT without it, since it's built >> into the LSI-11 CPU. The CPU also provides the pull-ups for the bus. > The BDV-11 is bootstrap code and bus terminators, not ODT code. The > CPU provides one end of bus termination. The BDV-11 provides the > other. The backplane does not have any termination of its own (unlike > some enclosures like the BA23). > > AFAIK, you will still need the BDV-11 in that last slot. > > -ethan > My only reason for thinking the BDV-11 isn't required is other minimal systems have been built with similar cards and no BDV (such as http://www.diane-neisius.de/pdp11/index_E.html). Admitedly, this is in a different chassis but I wouldn't have thought that would matter, would it? James From spedraja at gmail.com Wed Jul 27 03:57:31 2011 From: spedraja at gmail.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 10:57:31 +0200 Subject: Operating Systema for one HP Integrity Server (model 1620) Message-ID: Hi. It's possible for me to obtain one HP Integrity Server (model 1620). As HP said in its website, it supports Four Operating Systems: HP UX 11i version 2, Linux (RHEL 3 Update 3, RHEL 4, SuSE SLES9), Windows Server 2003 Enterprise and Datacenter Edition, and OpenVMS V8.2-1 or higher. Most interesting options for me are HP-UX (I know and manage it usually) and OpenVMS. Some way to obtain them for an affordable (yes, yes, good question about the meaning of affordable...) price ? Thanks. -- Saludos - Greetings - Freundliche Gr??e - Salutations Sergio Pedraja twitter: @sergio_pedraja http://www.linkedin.com/in/sergiopedraja http://www.quora.com/Sergio-Pedraja https://www.xing.com/profile/Sergio_Pedraja http://www.viadeo.com http://www.avalonred.com/ ----- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 27 15:20:41 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 21:20:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: 9 Track Tape Drive Interface Variants In-Reply-To: <20110727003127.f8d3c0a6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Jul 27, 11 00:31:27 am Message-ID: > What I meant to say: The 11/34a is my one and only UNIBUS machine. If I > can't get the 11/34a to work, I have no machine to connect the RK05 to. > Without machine, I have no need to fix the RK05 now. Well, there are controllers to conenct the RK05 to machines other than Unibus ones. The RK8e (for Omnibus PDP8s) and the RKV11 (for Q-bus machines, although it only supports 18 bit DMA addresses) spring to mind. The RKV11 is not easy to find though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 27 15:25:48 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 21:25:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Power Ripple in DEC BA11-K In-Reply-To: <20110727003309.96e3a6cf.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Jul 27, 11 00:33:09 am Message-ID: > > Hi. > > I try to get my "new" PDP-11/34a back to live. I did a quick PSU test > today with dummy loads. All voltages, LTCL, DCLO and ACLO where OK so I > pluged in the logic boards. But the machine does not respond to the > knobs on the programmers console. Pressing HLT + CNTRL brings the > machine not to halt, but the "Bus Error" LED of the console lights up. > Grant continuity cards and NPR jumpers are in place. > > It looks like I have the wrong bus terminator: There is a M9301-YF at > the CPU side and a M930 at the other bus end. It seems I need a M9302 > in place of the M930? This would explain the bus error. Err no. If you have an N930 terminator, a missing grant won't cause a bus error. The amchine should run properly with such a terminator (actuially, on a short Unibus, you can get away with no terminator at the 'far end' for testing. I don't recoemnd running a machine that way though. > > I took my scope to have a look at the ripple of the voltages. > Here is what I got on the second +5 V PSU: > X = 0.2 V / div ; Y = 2 ms / div > http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/tmp/5_Volt_Ripple__y=0.2V__x=2ms.jpg > X = 0.2 V / div ; Y = 10 us / div > http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/tmp/5_Volt_Ripple__y=0.2V__x=10us.jpg > > I get similar pictures on all voltages. Both +5 V power bricks (H7441) > show similar ripple as well as +15 V and -15 V. > > There are spikes with up to 1.2 Vpp and it is clearly related to the > 50 Hz lines frequency. This doesn't look that healthy. I had a look at > the BA11-K power distribution schematic. The two +5 V PSUs are > independent and run of different windings of the mains transformer. > I am a bit surprised to see about the same fault on all PSUs. I am no > SM-PSU expert, so I am now at the point where I have to ask for advice. First quesiton. What is the ground lead of the 'scome conncted to ? Is it connected to the system 0V rail? These supplies do suffer from dried-up electrolytics. Mains-frequency ripple is normally provblems with the capacitor at the output of the bridge rectifier (the very large one mounted horizontally on the PCB), spikes at switching freqeuncy are often due to the capactiro at the output of the 'brick'. If you have an ESR meter, it's worth checking them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 27 15:34:01 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 21:34:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Power Ripple in DEC BA11-K In-Reply-To: <4E2FC172.6050904@machineroom.info> from "James Wilson" at Jul 27, 11 08:42:42 am Message-ID: > Actually SMPSUs are quite simple, especially from this vintage. The > trickier parts are the voltage overload and voltage good detection > circuits in my experience. I'm sure others here will come back with good > advice on what to check but working your way methodically through the > stages of the PSU isn't that hard - just be careful and remember to > allow those large caps to fully discharge before touching anything! The BA11-K supply is benign in this respect. It uses a convenitonal iron-cored mains transformer to drop the incoming mains voltage to 20-30Vac. This is then fed to the regulator 'bricks'. While these contain some large capactiors [1] storing enough energy to blow transistors apart, the voltage is not high enouhg to give you a lethal shock. [1] A friend of mine (not on the list) refers to them as a 'CFE', standing for 'Capacitor, F***ing Enormous'. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 27 15:37:51 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 21:37:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Power Ripple in DEC BA11-K In-Reply-To: <20110727131455.451f6d28.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Jul 27, 11 01:14:55 pm Message-ID: > > How did you connect your scope? Looks more like a ground problem with your > > measurement setup. > This could be the problem. I don't have an isolating transformer. GND > of the scope and GND of the PDP-11 are connected to earth of the mains > plug. Because of this I connected both to the same power strip. I did > _not_ connect the GND clip of the probe to GND of the PDP-11. If I had You should have done! > done this, I would have created a ground loop. This, of course, _will_ > create problems. Without connecting the GND clip of the probe my > reference point was in the power strip. I can assure you a groudn loop -- a small omne like you'll have here -- will not cause problems withterse sorts of signals. Try again with the 'scope ground led connected. -tony From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jul 27 15:55:37 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 21:55:37 +0100 Subject: Power Ripple in DEC BA11-K In-Reply-To: <20110727131455.451f6d28.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20110727003309.96e3a6cf.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110727131455.451f6d28.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4E307B49.3070205@dunnington.plus.com> On 27/07/2011 12:14, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 11:31:34 +0200 (CEST) > Christian Corti wrote: >> How did you connect your scope? Looks more like a ground problem with your >> measurement setup. > This could be the problem. I don't have an isolating transformer. GND > of the scope and GND of the PDP-11 are connected to earth of the mains > plug. Because of this I connected both to the same power strip. I did > _not_ connect the GND clip of the probe to GND of the PDP-11. If I had > done this, I would have created a ground loop. This, of course, _will_ > create problems. Not necessarily, I do it all the time. And the lack of a local ground is almost certainly where all that hum and noise is from. > But if the M930 is enough and if the voltages are OK, why can't I halt > the CPU with the control panel? There are NPR jumpers in the backplane > and grand cards in emty slots. Classic sign of something wrong with the bus grants. If the grant cards are all the small type, are they the right way round? Is there one in every slot, including the last (slot 9)? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Jul 27 16:43:46 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 14:43:46 -0700 Subject: Power Ripple in DEC BA11-K In-Reply-To: <4E307B49.3070205@dunnington.plus.com> References: <20110727003309.96e3a6cf.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110727131455.451f6d28.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, <4E307B49.3070205@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: Agreed on the scope connection: hook up the ground. :-) And check the filter caps - unless they've been replaced in the last fifteen or twenty years (check the date codes) they are Prime Suspects in the sort of noise you're seeing (unless it's from your scope setup). It's worthwhile to pull the big ones and perform a leakdown test on them. Another question: are you certain that all the NPG lines are feeding through? I don't know whether a break in the NPG chain will cause BUS ERR on the display - I've never tempted that fate - but if the machine had a DMA device like a disk controller in it at some point and it was removed, the small G727 is not sufficient in that slot. You need a G7272, that also jumpers CA1 and CB1 - or if you find a SPC slot that doesn't have those two connected, you can just replace the jumper on the backplane. (I'd check it for you on my 11/34, but I have too much stuff stacked in front of it right now - sorry.) That's a guess, as I'm not sure if an NPG failure gives you a front panel error or just hangs the machine. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull [pete at dunnington.plus.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 1:55 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Power Ripple in DEC BA11-K On 27/07/2011 12:14, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 11:31:34 +0200 (CEST) > Christian Corti wrote: >> How did you connect your scope? Looks more like a ground problem with your >> measurement setup. > This could be the problem. I don't have an isolating transformer. GND > of the scope and GND of the PDP-11 are connected to earth of the mains > plug. Because of this I connected both to the same power strip. I did > _not_ connect the GND clip of the probe to GND of the PDP-11. If I had > done this, I would have created a ground loop. This, of course, _will_ > create problems. Not necessarily, I do it all the time. And the lack of a local ground is almost certainly where all that hum and noise is from. > But if the M930 is enough and if the voltages are OK, why can't I halt > the CPU with the control panel? There are NPR jumpers in the backplane > and grand cards in emty slots. Classic sign of something wrong with the bus grants. If the grant cards are all the small type, are they the right way round? Is there one in every slot, including the last (slot 9)? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Jul 27 16:49:49 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 14:49:49 -0700 Subject: Operating Systema for one HP Integrity Server (model 1620) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Look at www.openvmshobbyist.com for VMS - it says in the FAQ they support the Itanic. I see HP-UX on eBay all the time, including 11i. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of SPC [spedraja at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 1:57 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Operating Systema for one HP Integrity Server (model 1620) Hi. It's possible for me to obtain one HP Integrity Server (model 1620). As HP said in its website, it supports Four Operating Systems: HP UX 11i version 2, Linux (RHEL 3 Update 3, RHEL 4, SuSE SLES9), Windows Server 2003 Enterprise and Datacenter Edition, and OpenVMS V8.2-1 or higher. Most interesting options for me are HP-UX (I know and manage it usually) and OpenVMS. Some way to obtain them for an affordable (yes, yes, good question about the meaning of affordable...) price ? Thanks. -- Saludos - Greetings - Freundliche Gr??e - Salutations Sergio Pedraja twitter: @sergio_pedraja http://www.linkedin.com/in/sergiopedraja http://www.quora.com/Sergio-Pedraja https://www.xing.com/profile/Sergio_Pedraja http://www.viadeo.com http://www.avalonred.com/ ----- From oe5ewl at gmail.com Thu Jul 28 03:21:14 2011 From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 10:21:14 +0200 Subject: Got 2, Epson HX20s; One available for swap; Bull Gamma10 Boards Message-ID: Hi, got 2 HX20s in carrying cases yesterday. As far as I can tell the displays work. The Cassette Drives spool and the one machine I tested loaded a program. The internal batteries are dead but exchangeable to more modern rechargable cells with little effort. I'd like to swap the second HX20 for some radio gear (a Stornophone 6000 for 2m VHF for example would be a great deal). The available HX20 comes to you with a carrying case, a bit of printer paper, a Wall-Wart(original) and the cassette module on the right; german localized keyboard. The little computer looks nice and clean but is rather untested (it switches on at least and brings the 1 Monitor 2 Basic menu). I can throw in a micro-cassette or two if you want. There were some Bull marked printed boards in this lot, likely from an old computer which are available for any interested people too. I don't have any idea what this boards are but I think these are 60s PCB-Design. Every board is a c (abt. 15cm sidequadratis) and has some little doughter-boards soldered onto. I'll post pictures in the evening. http://www.technikum29.de/de/rechnertechnik/gamma10.shtm has an Image of One of the cards I've got too. I have 5 or 6 cards in total. Available to good hands. Regards, Wolfgang With the HX20s came an old Eminent Type-80 Electronic Organ. I found nearly nothing about this particular model but would need some schematics or hints to repair this one. Should bring nice sounds as it is a full tube model. Anyone a clue where I could get some more information -- Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL Operating System Collector Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com Homepage: www.eichberger.org From hachti at hachti.de Thu Jul 28 07:23:40 2011 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 14:23:40 +0200 Subject: A visit to berlin In-Reply-To: <20110727081923.GA15676@Update.UU.SE> References: <20110727081923.GA15676@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4E3154CC.3040906@hachti.de> > Anyone in berlin who wants to show of their collection? Hannover... :-( From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jul 28 09:38:51 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 15:38:51 +0100 Subject: Help the UK Computer Museum ID a new acquisition? Message-ID: http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/15532/Mystery-Item/ http://ow.ly/i/eXzb -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Thu Jul 28 12:38:47 2011 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 12:38:47 -0500 Subject: Old computer magazines available In-Reply-To: References: <67805783-6C08-4FDD-954F-A03161602CD2@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E0A7E3B9A@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Interested in Byte if they are pre-1980. -Bob bbrown at harpercollege.edu ####? #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ##? ##? ## Supervisor of Operations Palatine IL USA????????? ####? #### Saved by grace -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Robert Borsuk Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2011 9:35 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Old computer magazines available Hey Steve, I'm interested in the kilobauds. Rob Borsuk' 36885 Main St. Port Huron, MI. 48047 Just let me know if someone beat me / or what the cost is. Thanks Rob On Jul 24, 2011, at 9:57 PM, tosteve at yahoo.com wrote: > This guy is going to give me boxes of these old magazines. > If there are any you want, I can mail them media rate, or you can pick-up in southern California 92656. > I don't really want to pick through them looking for specific issues, though. > > Byte magazine > 80 Micro-C > Communications of the ACM > ACM Computing Surveys > ACM Sigart > Kilobaud Microcomputing > Computational Linguistics > Scientific American '60s > > > > Sent from Steve's iPhone. > > > Robert Borsuk rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations http://www.colourfull.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 28 13:56:48 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 19:56:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Power Ripple in DEC BA11-K In-Reply-To: from "Ian King" at Jul 27, 11 02:43:46 pm Message-ID: > > Agreed on the scope connection: hook up the ground. :-) And check > the filter caps - unless they've been replaced in the last fifteen or > twenty years (check the date codes) they are Prime Suspects in the sort Hmmm... Most, if not all, of the electrolytics in the PSUs of my PDP11s are original, some age getrting on for 40 years old, and they aren't casuing problems. Certainly if you have ripple/noise problems on the PSU outputs, you need to check the capactiors, but don't assume that they will need replaceing > of noise you're seeing (unless it's from your scope setup). It's > worthwhile to pull the big ones and perform a leakdown test on them. It's not the leakage that's the problem, it's the ESR (effective series resistance). If you pass an AC current through the capacitor, then for a perfect capacitor, the votlage droipped across it will be in phase quadrature ot the current. For real, not-so-perfect capactiros, there'll bve an in-phase compoonent too (of course the voltage can be resolved into in-phase and quadrature components in the normal way). The higher that in-phase component, the hogher rhe ESR. There are specail meters made for measuring this, there have also been designs publishd in various magazines over the years. Its' somethign that';s well worth having if you repair older machines, and particularly SMPUs. > > Another question: are you certain that all the NPG lines are feeding > through? I don't know whether a break in the NPG chain will cause BUS It will -- if you have an M9302 terminor. The normal casue of a Bus Err is that a grant (either a BG or an NPG) has got to the temrinator, I am sure you'll find the explanation in the list archives. However, an M930 terminore will not, itself, assert SACK, so it won't cause a bus error under these conditions. > ERR on the display - I've never tempted that fate - but if the machine > had a DMA device like a disk controller in it at some point and it was > removed, the small G727 is not sufficient in that slot. You need a > G7272, that also jumpers CA1 and CB1 - or if you find a SPC slot that > doesn't have those two connected, you can just replace the jumper on the > backplane. (I'd check it for you on my 11/34, but I have too much stuff stacked in front of it right now - sorry.) Anotehr trick is a little pice of single-sided coppr-clad board inserted at the rear of conenctor C with the copper side towards ther right hand side of the machine (note that the tracks on a G727 continutiy card, which goes in connector D, face the left side of the machine). Make sure the copper-clad boardis narrow enough just to connect pins CA1 and CB1 together, -tony From earl at baugh.org Thu Jul 28 14:26:29 2011 From: earl at baugh.org (Earl Baugh) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 15:26:29 -0400 Subject: Looking for Sun 3/110 CPU Board Message-ID: Anybody know where I might be able to find a Sun 501-1134 or 501-1209 3/110 Motherboard? I've got one that's got flaky RAM, and while I try to find the defective components, I'd like to find a replacement in case it's not something easily repairable, so I can keep the system operational. Thanks. Earl From h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl Thu Jul 28 14:49:34 2011 From: h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl (Henk Stegeman) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 21:49:34 +0200 Subject: Source for IBM logic probe tips Message-ID: Hi, Who can help me with a source (not IBM) for logic probe tips used with IBM MST and SLT backplanes. See: http://home.hccnet.nl/h.j.stegeman/IBM_logic_probes.jpg Prefably the lower one (P/N 453826). Thanks for your replies. Regards Henk From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Thu Jul 28 15:00:44 2011 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 16:00:44 -0400 Subject: cleaning out databooks- any takers?- update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E31BFEC.7080006@splab.cas.neu.edu> Well, no takers unless Will makes yet another trip here. So, I'm going to pack them all up to free up some shelf space and as I have time and space, bring them to the library to recycle. Joe Heck From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Jul 28 15:34:11 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 21:34:11 +0100 Subject: DEC MMJ Adapter H8571-J Rev A and B Differences Message-ID: <058501cc4d65$bcf06ad0$36d14070$@ntlworld.com> I will shortly be receiving some of these, apparently a mixture of rev A and rev B. I don't know what the difference is, can anyone tell me? Thanks Rob From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Jul 28 15:41:21 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 15:41:21 -0500 Subject: New doc upload: Cipher Tape Drive Drawings Message-ID: For all you third-party DEC accessories fans, newly uploaded to the ChiClassicComp archives: Engineering drawings for the Cipher Quarterback 1/4 Inch Tape Drive. 89 11x17 pages, 600dpi. http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/Cipher -- jht From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jul 28 16:09:56 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 15:09:56 -0600 Subject: cleaning out databooks- any takers?- update In-Reply-To: <4E31BFEC.7080006@splab.cas.neu.edu> References: <4E31BFEC.7080006@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: In article <4E31BFEC.7080006 at splab.cas.neu.edu>, joe heck writes: > Well, no takers unless Will makes yet another trip here. I know I didn't bother responding because there were no pictures of the books in question, nor was a list of the books in question posted. Its like saying "hey, I got some crap". -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Jul 29 04:27:17 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2011 11:27:17 +0200 Subject: Power Ripple in DEC BA11-K In-Reply-To: <4E2FC172.6050904@machineroom.info> References: <20110727003309.96e3a6cf.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4E2FC172.6050904@machineroom.info> Message-ID: <2f8f93e7-b372-40d6-a5e5-3514bf61ad9a@email.android.com> James Wilson schrieb: >Hi Jochen, I'm assuming that your X & Y are swapped? Yes. Actually I got it right in the file name. > What is your scope probe ground connected to? > AFAIK it should be on signal ground Ground is connectet through the mains earth. > The trickier parts are the voltage overload and voltage good detection circuits in my experience. DCLO and ACLO signals are OK. > just be careful and remember to >allow those large caps to fully discharge before touching The PSUs run not on mains voltages. There is a big mains transformer... From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Jul 29 06:23:31 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2011 13:23:31 +0200 Subject: Power Ripple in DEC BA11-K In-Reply-To: <4E307B49.3070205@dunnington.plus.com> References: <20110727003309.96e3a6cf.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110727131455.451f6d28.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4E307B49.3070205@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <17c1766c-1dd8-4165-8f99-54e36db5aea5@email.android.com> Pete Turnbull > And the lack of a local ground >is almost certainly where all that hum and noise is from. OK, I'll recheck with the ground clip connected when I am back home on sunday. >Classic sign of something wrong with the bus grants. If the grant >cards >are all the small type, are they the right way round? Is there one in >every slot, including the last (slot 9)? All emty slots have grand cards. The NPR wires on the backplane are in place, except slot 8. There is a non DEC, double wide grand card in this slot. I checked that it connects the grand pins and NPR. I'll recheck with an ohm meter in case there are any loose contacts. I have to reconfigure the serial console DL11-W also. Currently it is set to 110 BAUD but my VT520 doesn't support this. I need to build a new serial cable also. Thats the reason why I didn't check serial console output. I was in the hope to perform basic checks with the programmers console and care about the serial console problems later. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Jul 29 06:51:02 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2011 13:51:02 +0200 Subject: Power Ripple in DEC BA11-K In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <778ac773-62b8-49d9-aa22-a221f2bb6fff@email.android.com> ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk schrieb: >Err no. If you have an N930 terminator, a missing grant won't cause a >bus error. The amchine should run properly with such a terminator That's what I expected, as the machine came with this terminator instaled in the tape controller. The tape controller is in a separate box, so I moved the terminator into the CPU box, when I pulled the UNIBUS cable from the CPU to the tape controller box. >(actuially, on a short Unibus, you can get away with no terminator at >the >'far end' for testing. I don't recoemnd running a machine that way >though. I suspected that I cold get away without terminator when the bus is limited to the 9 slot CPU system unit. So I tried without terminator, but this made no difference. >First quesiton. What is the ground lead of the 'scome conncted to ? Is >it >connected to the system 0V rail? No, as I wrote. I'll recheck with the ground clip connected. >These supplies do suffer from dried-up electrolytics. Any electrolytic capacitor potentionally suffers from this problem, not only those old ons. But sometimes even very old capacitors work well. Mains-frequency >ripple is normally provblems with the capacitor at the output of the >bridge rectifier (the very large one mounted horizontally on the PCB), >spikes at switching freqeuncy are often due to the capactiro at the >output of the 'brick'. Thanks for the hints. I'll have a closer look when I return to the machine. > If you have an ESR meter, it's worth checking them. I don't have an ESR meter. I'll try to find an other way of testing the capacitors. From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Fri Jul 29 11:57:36 2011 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2011 11:57:36 -0500 Subject: VCFMW 6.0 / ECCC 2011 -- equipment I'm looking for In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E0A7E3BB6@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Does anyone have any old mainframe goodies they want to dispose of that they could bring to vcfmw? In particular I'm looking for a mainframe terminal (even an old biggie like a 3278/3279..or something newer) and a 3174 that could be made to connect to either Ethernet or token ring. Thanks! -Bob bbrown at harpercollege.edu ####? #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ##? ##? ## Supervisor of Operations Palatine IL USA????????? ####? #### Saved by grace -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of James L. Mazurek Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2011 1:32 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: VCFMW 6.0 / ECCC 2011 Vintage Computer Festival Midwest 6.0 / Emergency Chicagoland Commodore Convention 2011 http://vcfmw.org / http://starbase.globalpc.net/eccc September 24-25, 2011, Lombard, IL WHAT: VCFMW is a free and open exposition of classic computing hardware, software and memorabilia. ECCC is the world's top September destination for Commodore enjoyment. Two great shows, one great non-price! WHEN: 8AM Saturday, September 24, 2011 to 4PM Sunday, September 25, 2011 (display area will close 11PM Saturday to 10AM Sunday) WHERE: Heron Point Building, next to Fairfield Inn and Suites (Marriott) http://marriott.com/property/propertypage/CHIFS 665 West North Ave Lombard, Illinois 60148 USA 1-630-629-1500 Mention "Fall Commodore Expo" for special $69/night room rate! # Join the VCF-MW Facebook group! http://www.facebook.com/#!/event.php?eid=198133433540110 # Follow us on Twitter http://twitter.com/vcfmidwest # Join us on IRC at freenode #vcfmw # Visit for extra ECCC Facebookery. http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=199033060117396 Copyright ? 1997-2011 Vintage Computer Festival http://vintage.org Vintage Computer Festival and VCF are trademarks of VintageTech http://www.vintagetech.com From dgahling at hotmail.com Fri Jul 29 14:14:40 2011 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2011 15:14:40 -0400 Subject: vms fortune from 1970s plus Message-ID: This is a copy of late 1970s "fortune" from Vax/Vms of the time,with some additions. I'm still trying to find my original printout of the actual filewhich I'll post when I do. But I didn't want this lost, and some of it's amusing. Also several of the sayings are my fault or because of me or inspired by me.Some will live forever in infamy see: http://pastebin.com/RQz0ax0F Again, it's not 100% original, when I do find that one, it'll get posted.Maybe some here will recognize it. I may never live down some of the ones that are my fault :) Dan. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jul 29 14:30:08 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2011 15:30:08 -0400 Subject: vms fortune from 1970s plus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 3:14 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > This is a copy of late 1970s "fortune" from Vax/Vms of the time,with some additions. This must be one of the later additions: "My name's Friday. I carry a 486 ..." > Again, it's not 100% original, when I do find that one, it'll get posted.Maybe some here > will recognize it. I first ran FORTUNE.EXE in the Fall of 1984 on an 11/750 running VMS 3.4 or 3.6 (it was right around the time they upgraded). I probably have that fortune file somewhere. I doubt it's all that historic or profound (I do remember "11-PDP a ni deppart m'I !pleH", so I'm guessing its ancestor ran on RSX-11 or RSTS) but if there's a place to share such things, I can go look for it on a backup image and post it. -ethan From oe5ewl at gmail.com Fri Jul 29 16:48:24 2011 From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2011 23:48:24 +0200 Subject: VCFMW 6.0 / ECCC 2011 -- equipment I'm looking for In-Reply-To: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E0A7E3BB6@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> References: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E0A7E3BB6@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: i could supply some really old ibm terminals. but i'm in austria, europe. contact me off list if you are interested. i'm not interested in money, but swaps are welcome. the termials can be haved for grabs. regards,. wolfgang -- Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL Operating System Collector Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com Homepage: www.eichberger.org 2011/7/29 Bob Brown > Does anyone have any old mainframe goodies they want to dispose of that > they could bring to > vcfmw? In particular I'm looking for a mainframe terminal > (even an old biggie like a 3278/3279..or something newer) and a 3174 that > could be made to connect to either Ethernet or token ring. > Thanks! > -Bob > > bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR > Harper Community College ## ## ## Supervisor of Operations > Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of James L. Mazurek > Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2011 1:32 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: VCFMW 6.0 / ECCC 2011 > > Vintage Computer Festival Midwest 6.0 / Emergency Chicagoland > Commodore Convention 2011 > http://vcfmw.org / http://starbase.globalpc.net/eccc > September 24-25, 2011, Lombard, IL > > WHAT: VCFMW is a free and open exposition of classic computing > hardware, software and memorabilia. ECCC is the world's top September > destination for Commodore enjoyment. Two great shows, one great > non-price! > > WHEN: 8AM Saturday, September 24, 2011 to 4PM Sunday, September 25, > 2011 (display area will close 11PM Saturday to 10AM Sunday) > > WHERE: Heron Point Building, next to Fairfield Inn and Suites (Marriott) > http://marriott.com/property/propertypage/CHIFS > 665 West North Ave > Lombard, Illinois 60148 USA > 1-630-629-1500 > > Mention "Fall Commodore Expo" for special $69/night room rate! > > # Join the VCF-MW Facebook group! > http://www.facebook.com/#!/event.php?eid=198133433540110 > # Follow us on Twitter http://twitter.com/vcfmidwest > # Join us on IRC at freenode #vcfmw > > # Visit for extra ECCC Facebookery. > http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=199033060117396 > > Copyright ? 1997-2011 Vintage Computer Festival http://vintage.org > Vintage Computer Festival and VCF are trademarks of VintageTech > http://www.vintagetech.com > > From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Fri Jul 29 16:53:26 2011 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2011 16:53:26 -0500 Subject: VCFMW 6.0 / ECCC 2011 -- equipment I'm looking for In-Reply-To: References: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E0A7E3BB6@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E0A7E3BBF@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> I'd be interested but I expect the cost to ship old ibm terminals from Austria to the Chicago area would be extremely high...sigh.. -Bob bbrown at harpercollege.edu ####? #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ##? ##? ## Supervisor of Operations Palatine IL USA????????? ####? #### Saved by grace -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Wolfgang Eichberger Sent: Friday, July 29, 2011 4:48 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: VCFMW 6.0 / ECCC 2011 -- equipment I'm looking for i could supply some really old ibm terminals. but i'm in austria, europe. contact me off list if you are interested. i'm not interested in money, but swaps are welcome. the termials can be haved for grabs. regards,. wolfgang -- Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL Operating System Collector Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com Homepage: www.eichberger.org 2011/7/29 Bob Brown > Does anyone have any old mainframe goodies they want to dispose of that > they could bring to > vcfmw? In particular I'm looking for a mainframe terminal > (even an old biggie like a 3278/3279..or something newer) and a 3174 that > could be made to connect to either Ethernet or token ring. > Thanks! > -Bob > > bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR > Harper Community College ## ## ## Supervisor of Operations > Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of James L. Mazurek > Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2011 1:32 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: VCFMW 6.0 / ECCC 2011 > > Vintage Computer Festival Midwest 6.0 / Emergency Chicagoland > Commodore Convention 2011 > http://vcfmw.org / http://starbase.globalpc.net/eccc > September 24-25, 2011, Lombard, IL > > WHAT: VCFMW is a free and open exposition of classic computing > hardware, software and memorabilia. ECCC is the world's top September > destination for Commodore enjoyment. Two great shows, one great > non-price! > > WHEN: 8AM Saturday, September 24, 2011 to 4PM Sunday, September 25, > 2011 (display area will close 11PM Saturday to 10AM Sunday) > > WHERE: Heron Point Building, next to Fairfield Inn and Suites (Marriott) > http://marriott.com/property/propertypage/CHIFS > 665 West North Ave > Lombard, Illinois 60148 USA > 1-630-629-1500 > > Mention "Fall Commodore Expo" for special $69/night room rate! > > # Join the VCF-MW Facebook group! > http://www.facebook.com/#!/event.php?eid=198133433540110 > # Follow us on Twitter http://twitter.com/vcfmidwest > # Join us on IRC at freenode #vcfmw > > # Visit for extra ECCC Facebookery. > http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=199033060117396 > > Copyright ? 1997-2011 Vintage Computer Festival http://vintage.org > Vintage Computer Festival and VCF are trademarks of VintageTech > http://www.vintagetech.com > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jul 29 17:04:20 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2011 18:04:20 -0400 Subject: VCFMW 6.0 / ECCC 2011 -- equipment I'm looking for In-Reply-To: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E0A7E3BBF@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> References: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E0A7E3BB6@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E0A7E3BBF@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: > I'd be interested but I expect the cost to ship old ibm terminals from Austria to the Chicago area would be extremely high...sigh.. 3270 terminals are still quite easy to get in the US - many of the mainframe resellers have gobs of them, and demand is dropping to zero. For less than $100 you can get a nice one, checked and working. (didn't I mention this a month or so back?) -- Will From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Jul 30 15:06:49 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2011 13:06:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: floodgap temporarily offline (damn you Time Warner) Message-ID: <201107302006.p6UK6ndY014452@floodgap.com> For those of you using gopher.floodgap.com and the various Mac, Commodore and Alpha Micro resources on www.floodgap.com, thanks to Time Warner Business who promised me two weeks for the buildout and are now up to four and counting I will be offline completely starting tomorrow (as my current ISP contract was terminated based on their estimate). Services on those machines will be inaccessible until connectivity is restored, which hopefully should be in less than a week or there will be hell to pay. Hopefully Jay will not unsub me from the list :) but E-mail should fail over to my MX peer anyway. The inconvenience is regretted. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- There's always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby. -- Tom Waits ------------- From david at thecoolbears.org Sat Jul 30 23:33:27 2011 From: david at thecoolbears.org (David Coolbear) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2011 21:33:27 -0700 Subject: TI PC100A Message-ID: I have a TI-59 calculator and a PC100a printer. The printer stopped working suddenly and I would like to see if I can figure out why. Does anyone have access to: A) a schematic B) a pin out for the TMC0251 controller From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 31 12:16:00 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 18:16:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: TI PC100A In-Reply-To: from "David Coolbear" at Jul 30, 11 09:33:27 pm Message-ID: > > I have a TI-59 calculator and a PC100a printer. The printer stopped working > suddenly and I would like to see if I can figure out why. Does anyone have > access to: > > A) a schematic > B) a pin out for the TMC0251 controller > >From waht I remember, there PC100 (I think mine is a -C model) cotnains a PSU, the custom controlelr chip, the print mechanism, and not a lot else... Not having a schemaitc, I think I'd start by checking the obvious -- the power rails (see if you can find somebody with a similar unit who will measure them so you have something to compare against), the swtiches, etc. -tony From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Sun Jul 31 15:06:17 2011 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 13:06:17 -0700 Subject: Looking for old Memorex gear In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <016C8C7EAEDD4AE4BF610BA657F04FC2@tegp4> This year is the 50th anniversary of the founding of Memorex and its alumni will be holding a reunion in October at the Computer History Museum. We are looking for historic Memorex hardware and media products to display at the reunion and then donate to the museum for its permanent collection. Anyone know where there is 1) A 1270 Terminal Control Unit (or parts thereof) 2) A 1377 or 206x Terminal 3) Mark I, V, VI, X or XI disk packs 4) A Data Mark module We can pay for shipping. Any help would be appreciated Tom From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Fri Jul 29 19:13:46 2011 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2011 20:13:46 -0400 Subject: Looking for Sun 3/110 CPU Board Message-ID: > From:?Earl Baugh > Date:?Thu, 28 Jul 2011 15:26:29 -0400 > Anybody know where I might be able to find a Sun 501-1134 or 501-1209 3/110 > Motherboard? > > Thanks. > > Earl I have twelve of the 501-1209 boards that are untested. It looks like one is new. What I have done for others is drop the board off at the local PakMail store. You can call the PakMail store and pay for the shipping with your credit card. -- Michael Thompson From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jul 31 17:48:09 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 16:48:09 -0600 Subject: TI PC100A In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E35DBA9.3030401@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > From waht I remember, there PC100 (I think mine is a -C model) cotnains a > PSU, the custom controlelr chip, the print mechanism, and not a lot else... And a few ROM chips for the calculator, depending on which suffix. The A suffix added TI-58/59 support, and the B and C suffix drop the SR-52 and SR-56 support. The SR-51 and SR-51A, but not the SR-51-II, work (mostly) on the PC-100 and PC-100A with the switch set to SR-52 mode. I could have sworn that I saw a schematic of the PC-100A somewhere, but I can't find it now. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Jul 31 18:19:57 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 16:19:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FFS: Databooks and docs Message-ID: I have some databooks and docs that didn't sell and I'm offering them free for shipping. Take one or take all. Motorola CMOS/NMOS Special Functions Data 1986 TRW RF Devices DataBook (1986 printing) Zenith Z-207-7 and Z-207-71 floppy drive manuals Pragmatic hard disk subsystem brochure & documentation -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Jul 31 18:21:14 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 16:21:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FFS: Databooks and docs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 31 Jul 2011, David Griffith wrote: > I have some databooks and docs that didn't sell and I'm offering them free > for shipping. Take one or take all. > > Motorola CMOS/NMOS Special Functions Data 1986 > TRW RF Devices DataBook (1986 printing) > Zenith Z-207-7 and Z-207-71 floppy drive manuals > Pragmatic hard disk subsystem brochure & documentation Sorry if it's not clear. I meant, "take any quantity". -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?