From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Sep 1 01:11:43 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 23:11:43 -0700 Subject: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1 replica In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C7DEE9F.5020807@brouhaha.com> Richard wrote about the Xilinx Spartan-3E: > I believe the 3E is for embedded designs, i.e. automotive applications, etc. No, they do have special parts rated for an automotive temperature range, but that's not what the 3E is. All Spartan FPGAs are general-purpose FPGAs. I have no idea what would be special in an FPGA for an embedded design; nearly all FPGA designs are embedded, so I think there would be no real market for an FPGA that was NOT suitable for embedded designs. The Spartan-3, -3E, and -3A series are all general purpose FPGAs with minor differences in their features. The -3AN is a -3A with a serial flash chip in the same package, so that you don't need a separate configuration device. The -3A DSP is a bigger 3A with more DSP resources. Eric From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Sep 1 02:01:20 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 08:01:20 +0100 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: References: <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4C577605.2070700@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4C7DFA40.9070404@philpem.me.uk> On 03/08/10 14:00, Gene Buckle wrote: > That's not even a contest. Commodore rules, Atari drools. :) Acorn for the win! :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Sep 1 02:06:52 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 09:06:52 +0200 Subject: First digital camera Message-ID: <20100901070652.GA11120@Update.UU.SE> Hi Somewhat offtopic (and old), but interesting. Does the d|i|g|i|t|a|l cassette mean that it is a DECcassette they are using? http://pluggedin.kodak.com/post/?id=687843 Cheers, Pontus. From tosteve at yahoo.com Wed Sep 1 03:18:15 2010 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 01:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA Message-ID: <262988.64281.qm@web110613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Slightly off-topic, but still interests many of you. Dozens of vintage (mediocre condition) electronic and HAM radio equipment for sale in Costa Mesa, CA. Storage unit needs to be cleaned out! None of it is mine, I'm just assisting. There is a Kaypro II, Kaypro 4, a floppy drive assembly or two. No S-100 systems. The owner is very unlikely to ship anything, but I can if required. See pics at this link: http://popbottlecaps.com/temp/electronics.html I took the Altos 586, with 2 feet of manuals, and some software. From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Wed Sep 1 07:51:54 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 05:51:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: They have an Amiga now with AROS, was Re: The Commodore 64 is back.. In-Reply-To: <82C5A12CBB05416A8F9B1DA9C3E7C7D3@dell8300> Message-ID: <189235.41284.qm@web113502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/31/commodore-usa-to-relaunch-amiga-brand-with-series-of-aros-deskto/ From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Sep 1 08:18:26 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 06:18:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: They have an Amiga now with AROS, was Re: The Commodore 64 is back.. In-Reply-To: <189235.41284.qm@web113502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> from Christian Liendo at "Sep 1, 10 05:51:54 am" Message-ID: <201009011318.o81DIQmb014088@floodgap.com> > http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/31/commodore-usa-to-relaunch-amiga-brand-with-series-of-aros-deskto/ "Commodore USA: because your bulls**t detector isn't pegged enough already." -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- My Kingdom for a Mac! -- Walter van Lerberghe (rip), TidBITS --------------- From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Sep 1 08:21:14 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 06:21:14 -0700 Subject: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA In-Reply-To: <262988.64281.qm@web110613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <262988.64281.qm@web110613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'd love to have that dual 8 inch drive. See should know that that McIntosh amp is quite valuable. Dwight > Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 01:18:15 -0700 > From: tosteve at yahoo.com > Subject: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > > Slightly off-topic, but still interests many of you. > Dozens of vintage (mediocre condition) electronic and HAM radio equipment for > sale in Costa Mesa, CA. > Storage unit needs to be cleaned out! None of it is mine, I'm just assisting. > There is a Kaypro II, Kaypro 4, a floppy drive assembly or two. No S-100 > systems. > > The owner is very unlikely to ship anything, but I can if required. > > See pics at this link: > http://popbottlecaps.com/temp/electronics.html > > I took the Altos 586, with 2 feet of manuals, and some software. > > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Sep 1 08:28:59 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 06:28:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C7DFA40.9070404@philpem.me.uk> References: <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4C577605.2070700@atarimuseum.com> <4C7DFA40.9070404@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Sep 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 03/08/10 14:00, Gene Buckle wrote: >> That's not even a contest. Commodore rules, Atari drools. :) > > Acorn for the win! :) > You're nuts. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Sep 1 08:35:25 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 06:35:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: They have an Amiga now with AROS, was Re: The Commodore 64 is back.. In-Reply-To: <189235.41284.qm@web113502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <189235.41284.qm@web113502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Sep 2010, Christian Liendo wrote: > > http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/31/commodore-usa-to-relaunch-amiga-brand-with-series-of-aros-deskto/ > These direct links to engadget have never worked. It automatically redirects you to the home page. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Sep 1 08:51:44 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 09:51:44 -0400 Subject: The Commodore 64 is back.. Maybe.. Not really.. Kinda In-Reply-To: <82C5A12CBB05416A8F9B1DA9C3E7C7D3@dell8300> References: <69572.64445.qm@web113504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <82C5A12CBB05416A8F9B1DA9C3E7C7D3@dell8300> Message-ID: <4C7E5A70.4080802@atarimuseum.com> The keyboard part... I agree, but with the emulators, everything you are saying about networking, data moving, etc... could all be done on it. Teo Zenios wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christian Liendo" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 10:47 AM > Subject: The Commodore 64 is back.. Maybe.. Not really.. Kinda > > >> the 64 now means 64Bit Computer... Er ehm... yea.. >> >> http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/26/commodore-usa-announces-the-pc64-an-atom-powered-pc-in-a-replic/ >> >> >> When you think of it, you can now emulate an Amiga on your Commodore >> 64.. >> In fact you can emulate all the Commmodore computers in virtuals on >> your Commodore 64.. >> >> Here is the Commodore USA website >> http://www.commodoreusa.net >> > > > A bit lame trying to type on the original C64 layout and keyboard in > Windows, they could have use the C64C design to lower carpel tunnel > lawsuits. > > Instead of building a PC it would have been cool to have a functional > C64 but with USB for joysticks, proper VGA/DVI out, a CDROM, HD, and > built in networking for moving old data and installing programs but a > port for the older 1541/1571 drives so you can backup your originals > or play them. Device drivers for all of that stuff could have been > burned to ROM so the thing instantly boots and works (plus a bit more > then 64K of RAM would be nice). Something that would allow you to use > all the old software but make life so much easier (and maybe a CPU > accelerator to do new things). Of course this would mean some actual > design work instead of just making a new case and using an off the > shelf atom laptop motherboard. > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3104 - Release Date: 08/31/10 02:34:00 > > From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 09:02:38 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 10:02:38 -0400 Subject: They have an Amiga now with AROS, was Re: The Commodore 64 is back.. In-Reply-To: References: <189235.41284.qm@web113502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C7E5CFE.7010700@gmail.com> Gene Buckle wrote: >> http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/31/commodore-usa-to-relaunch-amiga-brand-with-series-of-aros-deskto/ >> > These direct links to engadget have never worked. It automatically > redirects you to the home page. Works fine here... Peace... Sridhar From lproven at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 09:21:44 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 15:21:44 +0100 Subject: They have an Amiga now with AROS, was Re: The Commodore 64 is back.. In-Reply-To: <4C7E5CFE.7010700@gmail.com> References: <189235.41284.qm@web113502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4C7E5CFE.7010700@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1 September 2010 15:02, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Gene Buckle wrote: >>> >>> >>> http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/31/commodore-usa-to-relaunch-amiga-brand-with-series-of-aros-deskto/ >>> >> These direct links to engadget have never worked. It automatically >> redirects you to the home page. > > Works fine here... And here, too. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Sep 1 09:49:29 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 07:49:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: They have an Amiga now with AROS, was Re: The Commodore 64 is back.. In-Reply-To: References: <189235.41284.qm@web113502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4C7E5CFE.7010700@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Sep 2010, Liam Proven wrote: > On 1 September 2010 15:02, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Gene Buckle wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/31/commodore-usa-to-relaunch-amiga-brand-with-series-of-aros-deskto/ >>>> >>> These direct links to engadget have never worked. It automatically >>> redirects you to the home page. >> >> Works fine here... > > And here, too. > When I paste that URL into Firefox, the server redirects to the main page. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 1 09:55:06 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 07:55:06 -0700 Subject: They have an Amiga now with AROS, was Re: The Commodore 64 is back.. In-Reply-To: <201009011318.o81DIQmb014088@floodgap.com> References: <201009011318.o81DIQmb014088@floodgap.com> Message-ID: At 6:18 AM -0700 9/1/10, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > >http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/31/commodore-usa-to-relaunch-amiga-brand-with-series-of-aros-deskto/ > >"Commodore USA: because your bulls**t detector isn't pegged enough already." Even worse, in this one Amiga Inc, is obviously involved. A quick look shows that Hyperion Entertainment might be getting their lawyers involved. http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=32323&forum=16&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=0#577704 Then there is taking a look at the "Commodore USA" website, is this a joke, or is this the wrong URL? I've seen joke websites that look more professional. http://www.commodoreusa.net/home.html Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 09:54:41 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 10:54:41 -0400 Subject: They have an Amiga now with AROS, was Re: The Commodore 64 is back.. In-Reply-To: References: <189235.41284.qm@web113502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4C7E5CFE.7010700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C7E6931.5010500@gmail.com> Gene Buckle wrote: >>>>> http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/31/commodore-usa-to-relaunch-amiga-brand-with-series-of-aros-deskto/ >>>>> >>>> These direct links to engadget have never worked. It automatically >>>> redirects you to the home page. >>> >>> Works fine here... >> >> And here, too. >> > When I paste that URL into Firefox, the server redirects to the main page. Are you sure you're getting the whole thing? That's the behavior I get if either there's a superfluous space in the URL or if I don't copy the whole URL including the slash at the end. Peace... Sridhar From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Wed Sep 1 09:56:44 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 07:56:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: They have an Amiga now with AROS, was Re: The Commodore 64 is back.. In-Reply-To: References: <189235.41284.qm@web113502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4C7E5CFE.7010700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <16495.25612.qm@web83913.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Worked for me as well just clicking the link. Maybe your mail client is mangling the link or you're not cutting/pasting it all. ________________________________ From: Gene Buckle To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wed, September 1, 2010 9:49:29 AM Subject: Re: They have an Amiga now with AROS, was Re: The Commodore 64 is back.. On Wed, 1 Sep 2010, Liam Proven wrote: > On 1 September 2010 15:02, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Gene Buckle wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/31/commodore-usa-to-relaunch-amiga-brand-with-series-of-aros-deskto/ >>>>/ >>>> >>> These direct links to engadget have never worked. It automatically >>> redirects you to the home page. >> >> Works fine here... > > And here, too. > When I paste that URL into Firefox, the server redirects to the main page. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Wed Sep 1 10:28:07 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 08:28:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: They have an Amiga now with AROS, was Re: The Commodore 64 is back.. In-Reply-To: References: <201009011318.o81DIQmb014088@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <136976.59310.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> All this fighting over useless trademarks. It's almost comical! :) ________________________________ From: Zane H. Healy To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wed, September 1, 2010 9:55:06 AM Subject: Re: They have an Amiga now with AROS, was Re: The Commodore 64 is back.. At 6:18 AM -0700 9/1/10, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > >http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/31/commodore-usa-to-relaunch-amiga-brand-with-series-of-aros-deskto/ > > > "Commodore USA: because your bulls**t detector isn't pegged enough already." Even worse, in this one Amiga Inc, is obviously involved. A quick look shows that Hyperion Entertainment might be getting their lawyers involved. http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=32323&forum=16&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=0#577704 Then there is taking a look at the "Commodore USA" website, is this a joke, or is this the wrong URL? I've seen joke websites that look more professional. http://www.commodoreusa.net/home.html Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From legalize at xmission.com Wed Sep 1 11:01:18 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 10:01:18 -0600 Subject: They have an Amiga now with AROS, was Re: The Commodore 64 is back.. In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 01 Sep 2010 06:35:25 -0700. Message-ID: In article , Gene Buckle writes: > On Wed, 1 Sep 2010, Christian Liendo wrote: > > > > > http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/31/commodore-usa-to-relaunch-amiga-brand-wi th-series-of-aros-deskto/ > > > These direct links to engadget have never worked. It automatically > redirects you to the home page. Works for me. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Sep 1 11:02:42 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 10:02:42 -0600 Subject: They have an Amiga now with AROS, was Re: The Commodore 64 is back.. In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 01 Sep 2010 07:49:29 -0700. Message-ID: In article , Gene Buckle writes: > When I paste that URL into Firefox, the server redirects to the main page. Install IE. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Sep 1 11:04:47 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 10:04:47 -0600 Subject: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1 replica In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 31 Aug 2010 23:11:43 -0700. <4C7DEE9F.5020807@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: In article <4C7DEE9F.5020807 at brouhaha.com>, Eric Smith writes: > Richard wrote about the Xilinx Spartan-3E: > > I believe the 3E is for embedded designs, i.e. automotive > applications, etc. > > No, they do have special parts rated for an automotive temperature > range, but that's not what the 3E is. All Spartan FPGAs are > general-purpose FPGAs. I have no idea what would be special in an FPGA > for an embedded design; nearly all FPGA designs are embedded, so I think > there would be no real market for an FPGA that was NOT suitable for > embedded designs. Well, when I try to find out information on Spartan 3 FPGA's on Xilinx's web site, all the web sections have "Automotive" plastered all over them. Perhaps they are just trying to market to that segment. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 1 11:04:53 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 09:04:53 -0700 Subject: They have an Amiga now with AROS, was Re: The Commodore 64 is back.. In-Reply-To: <136976.59310.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <201009011318.o81DIQmb014088@floodgap.com>, , <136976.59310.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C7E1735.32584.1D3EA2@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Sep 2010 at 8:28, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > All this fighting over useless trademarks. It's almost comical! :) I'm still waiting for the "new" Spectra 70. --Chuck From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Wed Sep 1 11:32:57 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 09:32:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1 replica In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <137989.76370.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Don't some FPGAs have dedicated peripherals on them for specific applications besides the field programmable parts of the silicon? ________________________________ From: Richard To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wed, September 1, 2010 11:04:47 AM Subject: Re: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1 replica In article <4C7DEE9F.5020807 at brouhaha.com>, Eric Smith writes: > Richard wrote about the Xilinx Spartan-3E: > > I believe the 3E is for embedded designs, i.e. automotive > applications, etc. > > No, they do have special parts rated for an automotive temperature > range, but that's not what the 3E is. All Spartan FPGAs are > general-purpose FPGAs. I have no idea what would be special in an FPGA > for an embedded design; nearly all FPGA designs are embedded, so I think > there would be no real market for an FPGA that was NOT suitable for > embedded designs. Well, when I try to find out information on Spartan 3 FPGA's on Xilinx's web site, all the web sections have "Automotive" plastered all over them. Perhaps they are just trying to market to that segment. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 1 11:38:57 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 09:38:57 -0700 Subject: They have an Amiga now with AROS, was Re: The Commodore 64 is back.. In-Reply-To: <136976.59310.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <201009011318.o81DIQmb014088@floodgap.com> <136976.59310.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 8:28 AM -0700 9/1/10, geoffrey oltmans wrote: >All this fighting over useless trademarks. It's almost comical! :) I suspected as much. The situation with Amiga and Hyperion disgusts me so much I've stopped following the Amiga. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 1 12:08:57 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 10:08:57 -0700 Subject: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1 replica In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <4C7E2639.24859.57E3A2@cclist.sydex.com> In the eval kits, the Spartan 6 kits seem to offer a significantly higher bang-for-the-buck than the Spartan 3 ones. What am I missing? --Chuck From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Sep 1 12:12:54 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 13:12:54 -0400 Subject: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1 replica In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C7E8996.2060506@verizon.net> On 9/1/2010 12:04 PM, Richard wrote: > In article<4C7DEE9F.5020807 at brouhaha.com>, > Eric Smith writes: > >> Richard wrote about the Xilinx Spartan-3E: >> > I believe the 3E is for embedded designs, i.e. automotive >> applications, etc. >> >> No, they do have special parts rated for an automotive temperature >> range, but that's not what the 3E is. All Spartan FPGAs are >> general-purpose FPGAs. I have no idea what would be special in an FPGA >> for an embedded design; nearly all FPGA designs are embedded, so I think >> there would be no real market for an FPGA that was NOT suitable for >> embedded designs. > > Well, when I try to find out information on Spartan 3 FPGA's on > Xilinx's web site, all the web sections have "Automotive" plastered > all over them. > > Perhaps they are just trying to market to that segment. Maybe. Did you see my other post? There are multiple versions of the Spartan-3E. PDF page 2 here http://www.xilinx.com/support/documentation/data_sheets/ds635.pdf outlines the differences between the commercial XC version and the automotive XA version. The XA automotive version is designed to be low-cost but has wide-range temperature support and has reliability qualifications. Otherwise it offers a LIMITED feature set, limited speed grades --- in comparison to the full commercial-grade Spartan-3E (that I own) There are no (AFAICT) specific automotive "features" that make it an extra special fit. Keith From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 1 12:34:50 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 10:34:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: First digital camera In-Reply-To: <20100901070652.GA11120@Update.UU.SE> References: <20100901070652.GA11120@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20100901101623.T21871@shell.lmi.net> As always on this list, ANY use of the word "first" is subject to challenge. On Wed, 1 Sep 2010, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Hi > Somewhat offtopic (and old), but interesting. Does the d|i|g|i|t|a|l > cassette mean that it is a DECcassette they are using? > http://pluggedin.kodak.com/post/?id=687843 It may very well have been the first digital camera from Kodak, or the first to meet certain completely arbitrary further restrictions (of weight, size, power source, image quality, etc.). But it (1975) was most certainly NOT the first digital camera. In 1970, I saw a Rube-Goldberg homemade system that used an almost unmodified Sony video-camera feeding its signal to a digitizer in the case of a gutted CV series recorder. Is that invalidated because it was two pieces connected with a cable? When I saw it, the tinkerers were putting together an interface to a crude fax machine. (Fax machines have been around a LONG time.) It is also amusing to note that in spite of this very nice "proof of concept", a decade later Kodak was betting the company on chemical capture with digital storage ("photo-CD" and later "picture-CD") Now, Kodak is phasing out a lot of their chemical products :-( -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From g-wright at att.net Wed Sep 1 12:38:33 2010 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 10:38:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: First digital camera In-Reply-To: <20100901070652.GA11120@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <811884.32138.qm@web83805.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Don't know about the Cassette, but they used a Motorola Exorciser to render the image. (6800)? Picture is missing the computer? interface and most likely floppy disk system. - Jerry --- On Wed, 9/1/10, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: From: Pontus Pihlgren Subject: First digital camera To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, September 1, 2010, 12:06 AM Hi Somewhat offtopic (and old), but interesting. Does the d|i|g|i|t|a|l cassette mean that it is a DECcassette they are using? http://pluggedin.kodak.com/post/?id=687843 Cheers, Pontus. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 1 13:14:25 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 11:14:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA In-Reply-To: References: <262988.64281.qm@web110613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20100901111320.J21871@shell.lmi.net> > I'd love to have that dual 8 inch drive. > See should know that that McIntosh amp is > quite valuable. "Wow! An amplifier named after the computer!" "I wonder why Apple let them do that" From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Wed Sep 1 13:20:08 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 11:20:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA In-Reply-To: <20100901111320.J21871@shell.lmi.net> References: <262988.64281.qm@web110613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20100901111320.J21871@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <250203.77282.qm@web83915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I wonder why Apple Records let an Apple Computer company alone for so long. ;) ________________________________ From: Fred Cisin To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wed, September 1, 2010 1:14:25 PM Subject: RE: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA > I'd love to have that dual 8 inch drive. > See should know that that McIntosh amp is > quite valuable. "Wow! An amplifier named after the computer!" "I wonder why Apple let them do that" From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 1 13:26:48 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 12:26:48 -0600 Subject: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA In-Reply-To: <20100901111320.J21871@shell.lmi.net> References: <262988.64281.qm@web110613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20100901111320.J21871@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C7E9AE8.6010801@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: >> I'd love to have that dual 8 inch drive. >> See should know that that McIntosh amp is >> quite valuable. > > "Wow! An amplifier named after the computer!" > "I wonder why Apple let them do that" I dare you to hook that to a IPOD output and headphones. :-) Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 1 13:29:49 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 12:29:49 -0600 Subject: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA In-Reply-To: <250203.77282.qm@web83915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <262988.64281.qm@web110613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20100901111320.J21871@shell.lmi.net> <250203.77282.qm@web83915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C7E9B9D.9060705@jetnet.ab.ca> geoffrey oltmans wrote: > I wonder why Apple Records let an Apple Computer company alone for so long. ;) Apple computer has better lawyers? I thought that records and a file would both count as music MEDIA. From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 13:34:35 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 14:34:35 -0400 Subject: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA In-Reply-To: <4C7E9B9D.9060705@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <262988.64281.qm@web110613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20100901111320.J21871@shell.lmi.net> <250203.77282.qm@web83915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4C7E9B9D.9060705@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4C7E9CBB.6070607@gmail.com> Ben wrote: > geoffrey oltmans wrote: >> I wonder why Apple Records let an Apple Computer company alone for so >> long. ;) > Apple computer has better lawyers? I thought that records and a file > would both count as music MEDIA. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Corps_v_Apple_Computer Peace... Sridhar From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Sep 1 14:13:13 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 21:13:13 +0200 Subject: DRTS-11 Message-ID: <9e1a269a118c7f0bd11afe800ede49d5.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> I have found a manual which is called the 'DRTS-11 Reference Manual' (Distributed Real Time System) and it talks about a pieces of software which is placed on top of RT-11. According to the description it optimized for I/O and uses 2 systems. One being the 'I/O processor', the other being the DRTS-11 system. The introduction reads : This document describes version V04.00 of the DRTS-11 multiprocessor operating system, and the Qnector processor link.' Apparently this software was made by 'Westfries Systems BV' and/or 'Viking Computer Corp.' Interesting bit is that this system does need one to logon to it and one can switch accounts. BTW, the manual is both the 'User guide', 'Admin guide', and 'Installation Guide'. Does this ring a bell to anyone? Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 1 14:33:10 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 12:33:10 -0700 Subject: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA In-Reply-To: <20100901111320.J21871@shell.lmi.net> References: <262988.64281.qm@web110613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , <20100901111320.J21871@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C7E4806.7539.DBEE1F@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Sep 2010 at 11:14, Fred Cisin wrote: > "Wow! An amplifier named after the computer!" > "I wonder why Apple let them do that" Macintosh .NE. McIntosh Reminds me of then-new Victor demanding that a electronics retailer who'd called his business "Victor Electronics" for 20 years (IIRC) change his business name or face the wrath of their mighty lawyers. That really put me off of that company. On the other hand, I've never used hand lotion to thicken gravy (Wondra). Maybe someday--when I'm very old and terribly confused and can't be trusted with sharp implements. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 1 14:35:17 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 12:35:17 -0700 Subject: DRTS-11 In-Reply-To: <9e1a269a118c7f0bd11afe800ede49d5.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <9e1a269a118c7f0bd11afe800ede49d5.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4C7E4885.29423.DDDDAB@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Sep 2010 at 21:13, E. Groenenberg wrote: > > I have found a manual which is called the 'DRTS-11 Reference Manual' > (Distributed Real Time System) ... > Does this ring a bell to anyone? Never heard of it, but I can well imagine that the name was just too good to resist pronouciation. ("Dirts-11" or better yet, "Dirtsy") --Chuck From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Sep 1 14:41:04 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 12:41:04 -0700 Subject: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA In-Reply-To: <4C7E4806.7539.DBEE1F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <262988.64281.qm@web110613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , <20100901111320.J21871@shell.lmi.net> <4C7E4806.7539.DBEE1F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 12:33 PM > On 1 Sep 2010 at 11:14, Fred Cisin wrote: >> "Wow! An amplifier named after the computer!" >> "I wonder why Apple let them do that" > Macintosh .NE. McIntosh In fact, Apple *did* pay a small fee to McIntosh just to head off exactly this kind of thing all the way back in 1984. The payment was reported in _BYTE_, or another similar venue. The computer company vis-a-vis the music company has been touched on else- where in this thread. Thanks, Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 1 14:55:38 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 12:55:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA In-Reply-To: <4C7E4806.7539.DBEE1F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <262988.64281.qm@web110613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , <20100901111320.J21871@shell.lmi.net> <4C7E4806.7539.DBEE1F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100901125331.O25169@shell.lmi.net> > > "Wow! An amplifier named after the computer!" > > "I wonder why Apple let them do that" On Wed, 1 Sep 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Macintosh .NE. McIntosh They ARE close enopugh for trademark squabbles. It is "common knowledge" that Apple Computer paid McIntosh Audio a royalty for using the name. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 15:25:47 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 16:25:47 -0400 Subject: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA In-Reply-To: <20100901125331.O25169@shell.lmi.net> References: <262988.64281.qm@web110613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20100901111320.J21871@shell.lmi.net> <4C7E4806.7539.DBEE1F@cclist.sydex.com> <20100901125331.O25169@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > They ARE close enopugh for trademark squabbles. > It is "common knowledge" that Apple Computer paid McIntosh Audio a royalty > for using the name. A purchase of legal protection, or a PR stunt? I bet a bit of both. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 1 15:47:05 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 13:47:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA In-Reply-To: References: <262988.64281.qm@web110613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20100901111320.J21871@shell.lmi.net> <4C7E4806.7539.DBEE1F@cclist.sydex.com> <20100901125331.O25169@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20100901134219.U31991@shell.lmi.net> > > They ARE close enopugh for trademark squabbles. > > It is "common knowledge" that Apple Computer paid McIntosh Audio a royalty > > for using the name. On Wed, 1 Sep 2010, William Donzelli wrote: > A purchase of legal protection, or a PR stunt? I bet a bit of both. At the time, the news reports referred to it as having been initiated by McIntosh Labs. Does anybody know the details on the Apple Music deal? At the time, it was touted as a mutual non-competition agreement. That would seem to preclude "iTunes". Or were there other relevant clauses? Or did it have an expiration date? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Sep 1 15:50:58 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 21:50:58 +0100 Subject: WTD -- ST506 style (MFM or RLL) hard drive and controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C7EBCB2.6060504@philpem.me.uk> On 31/08/10 13:48, Tony Duell wrote: > Alas not. Well, actually, I have a number od such drives, but I have even > more classic computers that use them. So nothing 'spare' Yeah, I've heard of a lot of folk in the same situation. I'm actually getting slightly tempted to hunt down a 1st-gen Acorn Archimedes with Acorn-installed ST506 hard drive. That would give me a drive and a known-good controller. > Err, the connectors are still avaialble (easily...) So is IDC ribbon > cable. And I assume you own a metalwork vice, since it's so useful for > other things. Which means you could make the cables in less time that > it's taken me to type this. Yes I could make a cable, but it's easier to use a ready-made one (if you can find one) than it is to make one up specially :) >> - MFM/RLL controller to match the drive. Anything goes here -- e.g.=20 >> Western Digital WD100x series, DTC, Omti... as long as I can make it=20 > > What do you want as the host computer interface? I am pretty sure I can > find the odd ISA bus one, but what would you use that with? ISA would be fine. Basically I need something I can hook up to a PC (either my clunky old 386-with-ISA-IDE-controller or something more recent) that will allow me to format the drive, and write something to it. Bulk-erase by holding WR_GATE active and WR_DATA low and track-stepping, then format using the controller. Read the data back with the Ferret and see what's there (probably an MFM bitstream based on the Seagate format recommendations). SCSI would be fine too, but then I'd have to buy a SCSI card... :) And it'd have to be capable of talking to a (relatively) modern SCSI card (PCI interface; Adaptec AHA2940 or something like that). At the moment, it's a "this would be really cool to have" type feature addition -- it doesn't seem that much harder to do MFM HDD dumping, and would make the DiscFerret the only imager capable of doing this at transition level. SMD might also be an option... later. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From drb at msu.edu Wed Sep 1 16:03:49 2010 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 17:03:49 -0400 Subject: WTD -- ST506 style (MFM or RLL) hard drive and controller In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 01 Sep 2010 21:50:58 BST.) <4C7EBCB2.6060504@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C7EBCB2.6060504@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20100901210349.37AC2A580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > ISA would be fine. Basically I need something I can hook up to a PC > (either my clunky old 386-with-ISA-IDE-controller or something more > recent) that will allow me to format the drive, and write something to > it. Bulk-erase by holding WR_GATE active and WR_DATA low and > track-stepping, then format using the controller. Read the data back > with the Ferret and see what's there (probably an MFM bitstream based on > the Seagate format recommendations). My understanding is that there's enough variation in the low level formatting between controllers that MFM drives aren't very portable. That could be interpreted as timing differences between models, or as timing variations in different instances of the same model, or even actual structure differences. I don't know which was meant by whatever source told me this long ago. Even assuming it is true, it doesn't necessarily kill your concept, though it might make implementation a hell of a lot more exciting. De From dbetz at xlisper.com Wed Sep 1 16:13:46 2010 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 17:13:46 -0400 Subject: Lots of TTL chips Message-ID: Does anyone want a whole slew of 74xxx TTL chips? Most are new although I suspect I bought them from some surplus place back in the '70s so I can't guarantee that they all work. I'm trying to clean out a parts cabinet and I don't want to throw these away if someone can use them. I also have a bunch of 27xxx EPROMs. I think they are mostly 2708s but there are certainly some 2716s and 2732s. I think there are even a few 27160s. I don't have fancy conductive foam to ship these in so you'll get a box full of stuff with possibly some bent pins. Anyone interested? From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Sep 1 16:21:52 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 22:21:52 +0100 Subject: WTD -- ST506 style (MFM or RLL) hard drive and controller In-Reply-To: <20100901210349.37AC2A580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <4C7EBCB2.6060504@philpem.me.uk> <20100901210349.37AC2A580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4C7EC3F0.5050905@philpem.me.uk> On 01/09/10 22:03, Dennis Boone wrote: > My understanding is that there's enough variation in the low level > formatting between controllers that MFM drives aren't very portable. > That could be interpreted as timing differences between models, or as > timing variations in different instances of the same model, or even > actual structure differences. I don't know which was meant by whatever > source told me this long ago. There are format differences. Different CRC implementations, different encoding rules (gap lengths and so on), slightly different ways of encoding the data (LSB-first, MSB-first, bit-sequential, staggered), interleaving, ...... The fun part is figuring out what those differences are, then 'teaching' the software how to identify them, and make sense of what's there. Same as I did with MagScan (which is still tied up in Licensing Hell and very close to being rewritten from scratch). > Even assuming it is true, it doesn't necessarily kill your concept, > though it might make implementation a hell of a lot more exciting. My life would be FAR more boring without all these fun and interesting puzzles :) I'm not above "blackbox" reverse engineering if it proves necessary. Change one byte, see what happens, that sort of thing. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 16:29:24 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 17:29:24 -0400 Subject: Lots of TTL chips In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C7EC5B4.5080102@gmail.com> David Betz wrote: > Does anyone want a whole slew of 74xxx TTL chips? Most are new > although I suspect I bought them from some surplus place back in the > '70s so I can't guarantee that they all work. I'm trying to clean out > a parts cabinet and I don't want to throw these away if someone can > use them. I also have a bunch of 27xxx EPROMs. I think they are > mostly 2708s but there are certainly some 2716s and 2732s. I think > there are even a few 27160s. I don't have fancy conductive foam to > ship these in so you'll get a box full of stuff with possibly some > bent pins. Anyone interested? Yes. Location? Peace... Sridhar From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 16:59:45 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 17:59:45 -0400 Subject: Lots of TTL chips In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/1/10, David Betz wrote: > Does anyone want a whole slew of 74xxx TTL chips? Yes, especially if you mean TTL vs TTL-LS. I have a use for many TTL parts for PDP-8 repair (7474, 7410, 7420, 7430, 7440 and several others). -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 1 17:11:42 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 15:11:42 -0700 Subject: WTD -- ST506 style (MFM or RLL) hard drive and controller In-Reply-To: <4C7EC3F0.5050905@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C7EBCB2.6060504@philpem.me.uk>, <20100901210349.37AC2A580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>, <4C7EC3F0.5050905@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C7E6D2E.19247.16D104C@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Sep 2010 at 22:21, Philip Pemberton wrote: > I'm not above "blackbox" reverse engineering if it proves necessary. > Change one byte, see what happens, that sort of thing. ...and then after you've cracked the MFM/RLL/ARLL hard drives, you can tackle the various flavors of ESDI... Fun! --Chuck From jws at jwsss.com Wed Sep 1 13:46:48 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 11:46:48 -0700 Subject: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA In-Reply-To: <4C7E9B9D.9060705@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <262988.64281.qm@web110613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20100901111320.J21871@shell.lmi.net> <250203.77282.qm@web83915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4C7E9B9D.9060705@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4C7E9F98.3080303@jwsss.com> > geoffrey oltmans wrote: >> I wonder why Apple Records let an Apple Computer company alone for so >> long. ;) > Apple computer has better lawyers? I thought that records and a file > would both count as music MEDIA. > > They didn't, but the legal issues have been settled. Jim From jws at jwsss.com Wed Sep 1 13:49:13 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 11:49:13 -0700 Subject: WTD -- ST506 style (MFM or RLL) hard drive and controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C7EA029.9050404@jwsss.com> >> Hi guys, >> >> I'm toying with the idea of doing an MFM/RLL hard drive bolt-on for the=20 >> DiscFerret (seeing as the DF hardware is basically done now -- I'm just=20 >> doing a final design check before I send the PCBs off for manufacturing). >> >> Problem is, I don't have a drive to play with. >> >> Does anyone have any or all of the following kicking around? >> >> - MFM or RLL hard drives. I could do with one or two of these;=20 >> anything's good, as long as it has an ST506-style interface (that is,=20 >> straight MFM/RLL with no funny business) and is believed to work. I'm=20 >> ideally aiming for something "of reputable manufacture" -- so not a=20 >> Kalok Octagon! > Alas not. Well, actually, I have a number od such drives, but I have even > more classic computers that use them. So nothing 'spare' > >> - Cable kit for the above. So that's the Data and Control cables --=20 >> edge connector to IDC plug. > Err, the connectors are still avaialble (easily...) So is IDC ribbon > cable. And I assume you own a metalwork vice, since it's so useful for > other things. Which means you could make the cables in less time that > it's taken me to type this. > > >> - MFM/RLL controller to match the drive. Anything goes here -- e.g.=20 >> Western Digital WD100x series, DTC, Omti... as long as I can make it=20 > What do you want as the host computer interface? I am pretty sure I can > find the odd ISA bus one, but what would you use that with? > > -tony > > I have an ST 225 / 238 that I have no particular use for. I'm in Los Angeles. It was a trophy at the local Goodwill Computer works, and I relieved them of it. I don't know where it came from, nor do I have a matching system to run it on at the moment. However it is not going to have priceless data from some system I know of on it, so no data or other attachment to it. Might be nice to drain it, but one has to do what one has to do to develope the first of anything, so wiping it out isn't a real big problem. jim From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Sep 1 21:46:25 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 20:46:25 -0600 Subject: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1 replica In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C7F1001.3040100@brouhaha.com> Richard wrote: > Well, when I try to find out information on Spartan 3 FPGA's on > Xilinx's web site, all the web sections have "Automotive" plastered > all over them. > > Perhaps they are just trying to market to that segment. > The Spartan-3 (no alpha suffix) is now an "older" family (as compared to the -3E, -3A, and -6), so yes, they might only be "pushing" the automotive spec parts, but they are still in full production in the standard commercial and industrial grades. Basically to get information for older devices out of the Xilinx web site requires clicking on "all devices" or some such thing. In fact, even the older Spartan-XL and Spartan-2 families are in full production, though they are not recommended for new designs, and you have to use older ("archived") versions of the ISE software to develop for them. (For Spartan-XL, there is no version of ISE that included HDL synthesis, so I definitely recommend against trying to use those for hobbyist development with Verilog or VHDL.) Beyond that, even some of the XC3000 and XC4000 parts are still in production. AFAIK, the only FPGA families that Xilinx have completely discontinued are the original XC2000 series (introduced in 1985), XC5200 series, and XC6200 series. Generally speaking, it only makes sense to use the most recent two generations of FPGAs for new designs, as the newer parts are always more cost-effective than the older ones, thanks largely to Moore's Law. Usually the only reason not to use the very latest (currently Spartan-6) is that the availability is not as good as the previous generation (Spartan-3E, -3A). Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Sep 1 21:53:26 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 20:53:26 -0600 Subject: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1 replica In-Reply-To: <137989.76370.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <137989.76370.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C7F11A6.5070209@brouhaha.com> geoffrey oltmans wrote: > Don't some FPGAs have dedicated peripherals on them for specific applications > besides the field programmable parts of the silicon? I can't tell you much about Altera, but some of the dedicated hardware in Xilinx FPGAs have included: * block RAMs, 18 or 36 Kbit, in almost all parts * multipliers or multiply/accumulate blocks in many parts * very high speed (>1Gbps) serial transceivers in some parts * a small amount of logic for traditional PCI, in the Spartan-2 * hardware PCIe endpoint logic in the Spartan-6 and Virtex-6 * hardware DDR SDRAM controller in the Spartan-6 and Virtex-6 * PowerPC processor core in some Virtex-4 and Virtex-5 parts * 10/100/1000 Ethernet MAC in some Virtex-5 and Virtex-6 parts For details, such as which parts have how many of what hardware blocks, you'll have to check the datasheets. Generally they only put in hardware blocks for things that can't be implemented reasonably efficiently in the fabric. I consider the 10/100/1000 Ethernet MAC to be an exception to that rule of thumb. Certainly if you want the kinds of traditional peripherals found in early microcomputers (GPIO, timers, UARTs, video display controllers), those will have to be in the fabric. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Sep 1 22:03:12 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 20:03:12 -0700 Subject: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1 replica In-Reply-To: <4C7E2639.24859.57E3A2@cclist.sydex.com> References: >, <4C7E2639.24859.57E3A2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C7F13F0.8050004@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > In the eval kits, the Spartan 6 kits seem to offer a significantly > higher bang-for-the-buck than the Spartan 3 ones. Certainly the Spartan-6 chips are far more cost effective than Spartan-3. For eval boards, I'm not convinced that this is the case yet. There aren't nearly as many inexpensive development boards for the -6 yet. I haven't yet seen any inexpensive Spartan-6 boards that seem comparable to the Digilent Spartan-3E or Spartan-3A boards, in terms of FPGA capacity, on-board peripheral interfaces/connectors, and availability of GPIO pins on connectors. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Sep 1 22:05:20 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 20:05:20 -0700 Subject: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA In-Reply-To: <250203.77282.qm@web83915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <262988.64281.qm@web110613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20100901111320.J21871@shell.lmi.net> <250203.77282.qm@web83915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C7F1470.4030601@brouhaha.com> On 09/01/2010 11:20 AM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > I wonder why Apple Records let an Apple Computer company alone for so long. ;) Given the smiley, I assume you know that they didn't, but others may not know that. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 1 23:13:18 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 21:13:18 -0700 Subject: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1 replica In-Reply-To: <4C7F13F0.8050004@brouhaha.com> References: , <4C7F13F0.8050004@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C7EC1EE.13395.2B81F08@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Sep 2010 at 20:03, Eric Smith wrote: > For eval boards, I'm not convinced that this is the case yet. There > aren't nearly as many inexpensive development boards for the -6 yet. > I haven't yet seen any inexpensive Spartan-6 boards that seem > comparable to the Digilent Spartan-3E or Spartan-3A boards, in terms > of FPGA capacity, on-board peripheral interfaces/connectors, and > availability of GPIO pins on connectors. I've been looking at the Ztex board--plenty of I/Os and $140, but I suppose it all depends upon one's needs. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 1 15:37:00 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 16:37:00 -0400 Subject: They have an Amiga now with AROS, was Re: The Commodore 64 is back.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02A2685E-39B7-4AE0-807A-6DE297726D29@neurotica.com> Heh ;) -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL On Sep 1, 2010, at 12:02 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article , > Gene Buckle writes: > >> When I paste that URL into Firefox, the server redirects to the main page. > > Install IE. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! From gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at Thu Sep 2 01:21:46 2010 From: gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at (Gerhard Kreuzer) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 08:21:46 +0200 Subject: Lots of TTL chips In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9F8A3C29EA8B43069BCB30CA7C12E5EB@mars> Hi, Very interested, we should make a direct contact ... With best regards Gerhard -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Im Auftrag von cctalk-request at classiccmp.org Gesendet: Donnerstag, 02. September 2010 05:03 An: cctalk at classiccmp.org Betreff: cctalk Digest, Vol 85, Issue 3 Send cctalk mailing list submissions to cctalk at classiccmp.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to cctalk-request at classiccmp.org You can reach the person managing the list at cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1 replica (Chuck Guzis) 2. Re: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1 replica (Keith M) 3. Re: WTD -- ST506 style (MFM or RLL) hard drive and controller (Tony Duell) 4. Re: First digital camera (Fred Cisin) 5. Re: First digital camera (Jerry Wright) 6. RE: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA (Fred Cisin) 7. Re: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA (geoffrey oltmans) 8. Re: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA (Ben) 9. Re: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA (Ben) 10. Re: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA (Sridhar Ayengar) 11. DRTS-11 (E. Groenenberg) 12. RE: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA (Chuck Guzis) 13. Re: DRTS-11 (Chuck Guzis) 14. RE: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA (Rich Alderson) 15. RE: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA (Fred Cisin) 16. Re: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA (William Donzelli) 17. Re: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA (Fred Cisin) 18. Re: WTD -- ST506 style (MFM or RLL) hard drive and controller (Philip Pemberton) 19. Re: WTD -- ST506 style (MFM or RLL) hard drive and controller (Dennis Boone) 20. Lots of TTL chips (David Betz) 21. Re: WTD -- ST506 style (MFM or RLL) hard drive and controller (Philip Pemberton) 22. Re: Lots of TTL chips (Sridhar Ayengar) 23. Re: Lots of TTL chips (Ethan Dicks) 24. Re: WTD -- ST506 style (MFM or RLL) hard drive and controller (Chuck Guzis) 25. Re: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA (jim s) 26. Re: WTD -- ST506 style (MFM or RLL) hard drive and controller (jim s) 27. Re: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1 replica (Eric Smith) 28. Re: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1 replica (Eric Smith) 29. Re: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1 replica (Eric Smith) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 10:08:57 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1 replica To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <4C7E2639.24859.57E3A2 at cclist.sydex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII In the eval kits, the Spartan 6 kits seem to offer a significantly higher bang-for-the-buck than the Spartan 3 ones. What am I missing? --Chuck ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 13:12:54 -0400 From: Keith M Subject: Re: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1 replica To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <4C7E8996.2060506 at verizon.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 9/1/2010 12:04 PM, Richard wrote: > In article<4C7DEE9F.5020807 at brouhaha.com>, > Eric Smith writes: > >> Richard wrote about the Xilinx Spartan-3E: >> > I believe the 3E is for embedded designs, i.e. automotive >> applications, etc. >> >> No, they do have special parts rated for an automotive temperature >> range, but that's not what the 3E is. All Spartan FPGAs are >> general-purpose FPGAs. I have no idea what would be special in an FPGA >> for an embedded design; nearly all FPGA designs are embedded, so I think >> there would be no real market for an FPGA that was NOT suitable for >> embedded designs. > > Well, when I try to find out information on Spartan 3 FPGA's on > Xilinx's web site, all the web sections have "Automotive" plastered > all over them. > > Perhaps they are just trying to market to that segment. Maybe. Did you see my other post? There are multiple versions of the Spartan-3E. PDF page 2 here http://www.xilinx.com/support/documentation/data_sheets/ds635.pdf outlines the differences between the commercial XC version and the automotive XA version. The XA automotive version is designed to be low-cost but has wide-range temperature support and has reliability qualifications. Otherwise it offers a LIMITED feature set, limited speed grades --- in comparison to the full commercial-grade Spartan-3E (that I own) There are no (AFAICT) specific automotive "features" that make it an extra special fit. Keith ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 13:48:19 +0100 (BST) From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: WTD -- ST506 style (MFM or RLL) hard drive and controller To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain > > Hi guys, > > I'm toying with the idea of doing an MFM/RLL hard drive bolt-on for the=20 > DiscFerret (seeing as the DF hardware is basically done now -- I'm just=20 > doing a final design check before I send the PCBs off for manufacturing). > > Problem is, I don't have a drive to play with. > > Does anyone have any or all of the following kicking around? > > - MFM or RLL hard drives. I could do with one or two of these;=20 > anything's good, as long as it has an ST506-style interface (that is,=20 > straight MFM/RLL with no funny business) and is believed to work. I'm=20 > ideally aiming for something "of reputable manufacture" -- so not a=20 > Kalok Octagon! Alas not. Well, actually, I have a number od such drives, but I have even more classic computers that use them. So nothing 'spare' > > - Cable kit for the above. So that's the Data and Control cables --=20 > edge connector to IDC plug. Err, the connectors are still avaialble (easily...) So is IDC ribbon cable. And I assume you own a metalwork vice, since it's so useful for other things. Which means you could make the cables in less time that it's taken me to type this. > - MFM/RLL controller to match the drive. Anything goes here -- e.g.=20 > Western Digital WD100x series, DTC, Omti... as long as I can make it=20 What do you want as the host computer interface? I am pretty sure I can find the odd ISA bus one, but what would you use that with? -tony ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 10:34:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Cisin Subject: Re: First digital camera To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <20100901101623.T21871 at shell.lmi.net> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII As always on this list, ANY use of the word "first" is subject to challenge. On Wed, 1 Sep 2010, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Hi > Somewhat offtopic (and old), but interesting. Does the d|i|g|i|t|a|l > cassette mean that it is a DECcassette they are using? > http://pluggedin.kodak.com/post/?id=687843 It may very well have been the first digital camera from Kodak, or the first to meet certain completely arbitrary further restrictions (of weight, size, power source, image quality, etc.). But it (1975) was most certainly NOT the first digital camera. In 1970, I saw a Rube-Goldberg homemade system that used an almost unmodified Sony video-camera feeding its signal to a digitizer in the case of a gutted CV series recorder. Is that invalidated because it was two pieces connected with a cable? When I saw it, the tinkerers were putting together an interface to a crude fax machine. (Fax machines have been around a LONG time.) It is also amusing to note that in spite of this very nice "proof of concept", a decade later Kodak was betting the company on chemical capture with digital storage ("photo-CD" and later "picture-CD") Now, Kodak is phasing out a lot of their chemical products :-( -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 10:38:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Jerry Wright Subject: Re: First digital camera To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <811884.32138.qm at web83805.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Don't know about the Cassette, but they used a Motorola Exorciser to render the image. (6800)? Picture is missing the computer? interface and most likely floppy disk system. - Jerry --- On Wed, 9/1/10, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: From: Pontus Pihlgren Subject: First digital camera To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, September 1, 2010, 12:06 AM Hi Somewhat offtopic (and old), but interesting. Does the d|i|g|i|t|a|l cassette mean that it is a DECcassette they are using? http://pluggedin.kodak.com/post/?id=687843 Cheers, Pontus. ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 11:14:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Cisin Subject: RE: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <20100901111320.J21871 at shell.lmi.net> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > I'd love to have that dual 8 inch drive. > See should know that that McIntosh amp is > quite valuable. "Wow! An amplifier named after the computer!" "I wonder why Apple let them do that" ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 11:20:08 -0700 (PDT) From: geoffrey oltmans Subject: Re: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <250203.77282.qm at web83915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I wonder why Apple Records let an Apple Computer company alone for so long. ;) ________________________________ From: Fred Cisin To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wed, September 1, 2010 1:14:25 PM Subject: RE: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA > I'd love to have that dual 8 inch drive. > See should know that that McIntosh amp is > quite valuable. "Wow! An amplifier named after the computer!" "I wonder why Apple let them do that" ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 12:26:48 -0600 From: Ben Subject: Re: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <4C7E9AE8.6010801 at jetnet.ab.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Fred Cisin wrote: >> I'd love to have that dual 8 inch drive. >> See should know that that McIntosh amp is >> quite valuable. > > "Wow! An amplifier named after the computer!" > "I wonder why Apple let them do that" I dare you to hook that to a IPOD output and headphones. :-) Ben. ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 12:29:49 -0600 From: Ben Subject: Re: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <4C7E9B9D.9060705 at jetnet.ab.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed geoffrey oltmans wrote: > I wonder why Apple Records let an Apple Computer company alone for so long. ;) Apple computer has better lawyers? I thought that records and a file would both count as music MEDIA. ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 14:34:35 -0400 From: Sridhar Ayengar Subject: Re: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <4C7E9CBB.6070607 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Ben wrote: > geoffrey oltmans wrote: >> I wonder why Apple Records let an Apple Computer company alone for so >> long. ;) > Apple computer has better lawyers? I thought that records and a file > would both count as music MEDIA. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Corps_v_Apple_Computer Peace... Sridhar ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 21:13:13 +0200 From: "E. Groenenberg" Subject: DRTS-11 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <9e1a269a118c7f0bd11afe800ede49d5.squirrel at webmail.xs4all.nl> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 I have found a manual which is called the 'DRTS-11 Reference Manual' (Distributed Real Time System) and it talks about a pieces of software which is placed on top of RT-11. According to the description it optimized for I/O and uses 2 systems. One being the 'I/O processor', the other being the DRTS-11 system. The introduction reads : This document describes version V04.00 of the DRTS-11 multiprocessor operating system, and the Qnector processor link.' Apparently this software was made by 'Westfries Systems BV' and/or 'Viking Computer Corp.' Interesting bit is that this system does need one to logon to it and one can switch accounts. BTW, the manual is both the 'User guide', 'Admin guide', and 'Installation Guide'. Does this ring a bell to anyone? Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 12:33:10 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: RE: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <4C7E4806.7539.DBEE1F at cclist.sydex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII On 1 Sep 2010 at 11:14, Fred Cisin wrote: > "Wow! An amplifier named after the computer!" > "I wonder why Apple let them do that" Macintosh .NE. McIntosh Reminds me of then-new Victor demanding that a electronics retailer who'd called his business "Victor Electronics" for 20 years (IIRC) change his business name or face the wrath of their mighty lawyers. That really put me off of that company. On the other hand, I've never used hand lotion to thicken gravy (Wondra). Maybe someday--when I'm very old and terribly confused and can't be trusted with sharp implements. --Chuck ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 12:35:17 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: DRTS-11 To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <4C7E4885.29423.DDDDAB at cclist.sydex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII On 1 Sep 2010 at 21:13, E. Groenenberg wrote: > > I have found a manual which is called the 'DRTS-11 Reference Manual' > (Distributed Real Time System) ... > Does this ring a bell to anyone? Never heard of it, but I can well imagine that the name was just too good to resist pronouciation. ("Dirts-11" or better yet, "Dirtsy") --Chuck ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 12:41:04 -0700 From: Rich Alderson Subject: RE: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 12:33 PM > On 1 Sep 2010 at 11:14, Fred Cisin wrote: >> "Wow! An amplifier named after the computer!" >> "I wonder why Apple let them do that" > Macintosh .NE. McIntosh In fact, Apple *did* pay a small fee to McIntosh just to head off exactly this kind of thing all the way back in 1984. The payment was reported in _BYTE_, or another similar venue. The computer company vis-a-vis the music company has been touched on else- where in this thread. Thanks, Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 12:55:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Cisin Subject: RE: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <20100901125331.O25169 at shell.lmi.net> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > "Wow! An amplifier named after the computer!" > > "I wonder why Apple let them do that" On Wed, 1 Sep 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Macintosh .NE. McIntosh They ARE close enopugh for trademark squabbles. It is "common knowledge" that Apple Computer paid McIntosh Audio a royalty for using the name. ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 16:25:47 -0400 From: William Donzelli Subject: Re: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > They ARE close enopugh for trademark squabbles. > It is "common knowledge" that Apple Computer paid McIntosh Audio a royalty > for using the name. A purchase of legal protection, or a PR stunt? I bet a bit of both. -- Will ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 13:47:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Cisin Subject: Re: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <20100901134219.U31991 at shell.lmi.net> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > They ARE close enopugh for trademark squabbles. > > It is "common knowledge" that Apple Computer paid McIntosh Audio a royalty > > for using the name. On Wed, 1 Sep 2010, William Donzelli wrote: > A purchase of legal protection, or a PR stunt? I bet a bit of both. At the time, the news reports referred to it as having been initiated by McIntosh Labs. Does anybody know the details on the Apple Music deal? At the time, it was touted as a mutual non-competition agreement. That would seem to preclude "iTunes". Or were there other relevant clauses? Or did it have an expiration date? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 21:50:58 +0100 From: Philip Pemberton Subject: Re: WTD -- ST506 style (MFM or RLL) hard drive and controller To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <4C7EBCB2.6060504 at philpem.me.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 31/08/10 13:48, Tony Duell wrote: > Alas not. Well, actually, I have a number od such drives, but I have even > more classic computers that use them. So nothing 'spare' Yeah, I've heard of a lot of folk in the same situation. I'm actually getting slightly tempted to hunt down a 1st-gen Acorn Archimedes with Acorn-installed ST506 hard drive. That would give me a drive and a known-good controller. > Err, the connectors are still avaialble (easily...) So is IDC ribbon > cable. And I assume you own a metalwork vice, since it's so useful for > other things. Which means you could make the cables in less time that > it's taken me to type this. Yes I could make a cable, but it's easier to use a ready-made one (if you can find one) than it is to make one up specially :) >> - MFM/RLL controller to match the drive. Anything goes here -- e.g.=20 >> Western Digital WD100x series, DTC, Omti... as long as I can make it=20 > > What do you want as the host computer interface? I am pretty sure I can > find the odd ISA bus one, but what would you use that with? ISA would be fine. Basically I need something I can hook up to a PC (either my clunky old 386-with-ISA-IDE-controller or something more recent) that will allow me to format the drive, and write something to it. Bulk-erase by holding WR_GATE active and WR_DATA low and track-stepping, then format using the controller. Read the data back with the Ferret and see what's there (probably an MFM bitstream based on the Seagate format recommendations). SCSI would be fine too, but then I'd have to buy a SCSI card... :) And it'd have to be capable of talking to a (relatively) modern SCSI card (PCI interface; Adaptec AHA2940 or something like that). At the moment, it's a "this would be really cool to have" type feature addition -- it doesn't seem that much harder to do MFM HDD dumping, and would make the DiscFerret the only imager capable of doing this at transition level. SMD might also be an option... later. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ ------------------------------ Message: 19 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 17:03:49 -0400 From: Dennis Boone Subject: Re: WTD -- ST506 style (MFM or RLL) hard drive and controller To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <20100901210349.37AC2A580D2 at yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > ISA would be fine. Basically I need something I can hook up to a PC > (either my clunky old 386-with-ISA-IDE-controller or something more > recent) that will allow me to format the drive, and write something to > it. Bulk-erase by holding WR_GATE active and WR_DATA low and > track-stepping, then format using the controller. Read the data back > with the Ferret and see what's there (probably an MFM bitstream based on > the Seagate format recommendations). My understanding is that there's enough variation in the low level formatting between controllers that MFM drives aren't very portable. That could be interpreted as timing differences between models, or as timing variations in different instances of the same model, or even actual structure differences. I don't know which was meant by whatever source told me this long ago. Even assuming it is true, it doesn't necessarily kill your concept, though it might make implementation a hell of a lot more exciting. De ------------------------------ Message: 20 Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 17:13:46 -0400 From: David Betz Subject: Lots of TTL chips To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Does anyone want a whole slew of 74xxx TTL chips? Most are new although I suspect I bought them from some surplus place back in the '70s so I can't guarantee that they all work. I'm trying to clean out a parts cabinet and I don't want to throw these away if someone can use them. I also have a bunch of 27xxx EPROMs. I think they are mostly 2708s but there are certainly some 2716s and 2732s. I think there are even a few 27160s. I don't have fancy conductive foam to ship these in so you'll get a box full of stuff with possibly some bent pins. Anyone interested? ------------------------------ Message: 21 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 22:21:52 +0100 From: Philip Pemberton Subject: Re: WTD -- ST506 style (MFM or RLL) hard drive and controller To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <4C7EC3F0.5050905 at philpem.me.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 01/09/10 22:03, Dennis Boone wrote: > My understanding is that there's enough variation in the low level > formatting between controllers that MFM drives aren't very portable. > That could be interpreted as timing differences between models, or as > timing variations in different instances of the same model, or even > actual structure differences. I don't know which was meant by whatever > source told me this long ago. There are format differences. Different CRC implementations, different encoding rules (gap lengths and so on), slightly different ways of encoding the data (LSB-first, MSB-first, bit-sequential, staggered), interleaving, ...... The fun part is figuring out what those differences are, then 'teaching' the software how to identify them, and make sense of what's there. Same as I did with MagScan (which is still tied up in Licensing Hell and very close to being rewritten from scratch). > Even assuming it is true, it doesn't necessarily kill your concept, > though it might make implementation a hell of a lot more exciting. My life would be FAR more boring without all these fun and interesting puzzles :) I'm not above "blackbox" reverse engineering if it proves necessary. Change one byte, see what happens, that sort of thing. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ ------------------------------ Message: 22 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 17:29:24 -0400 From: Sridhar Ayengar Subject: Re: Lots of TTL chips To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <4C7EC5B4.5080102 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed David Betz wrote: > Does anyone want a whole slew of 74xxx TTL chips? Most are new > although I suspect I bought them from some surplus place back in the > '70s so I can't guarantee that they all work. I'm trying to clean out > a parts cabinet and I don't want to throw these away if someone can > use them. I also have a bunch of 27xxx EPROMs. I think they are > mostly 2708s but there are certainly some 2716s and 2732s. I think > there are even a few 27160s. I don't have fancy conductive foam to > ship these in so you'll get a box full of stuff with possibly some > bent pins. Anyone interested? Yes. Location? Peace... Sridhar ------------------------------ Message: 23 Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 17:59:45 -0400 From: Ethan Dicks Subject: Re: Lots of TTL chips To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 9/1/10, David Betz wrote: > Does anyone want a whole slew of 74xxx TTL chips? Yes, especially if you mean TTL vs TTL-LS. I have a use for many TTL parts for PDP-8 repair (7474, 7410, 7420, 7430, 7440 and several others). -ethan ------------------------------ Message: 24 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 15:11:42 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: WTD -- ST506 style (MFM or RLL) hard drive and controller To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <4C7E6D2E.19247.16D104C at cclist.sydex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII On 1 Sep 2010 at 22:21, Philip Pemberton wrote: > I'm not above "blackbox" reverse engineering if it proves necessary. > Change one byte, see what happens, that sort of thing. ...and then after you've cracked the MFM/RLL/ARLL hard drives, you can tackle the various flavors of ESDI... Fun! --Chuck ------------------------------ Message: 25 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 11:46:48 -0700 From: jim s Subject: Re: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <4C7E9F98.3080303 at jwsss.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > geoffrey oltmans wrote: >> I wonder why Apple Records let an Apple Computer company alone for so >> long. ;) > Apple computer has better lawyers? I thought that records and a file > would both count as music MEDIA. > > They didn't, but the legal issues have been settled. Jim ------------------------------ Message: 26 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 11:49:13 -0700 From: jim s Subject: Re: WTD -- ST506 style (MFM or RLL) hard drive and controller To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <4C7EA029.9050404 at jwsss.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> Hi guys, >> >> I'm toying with the idea of doing an MFM/RLL hard drive bolt-on for the=20 >> DiscFerret (seeing as the DF hardware is basically done now -- I'm just=20 >> doing a final design check before I send the PCBs off for manufacturing). >> >> Problem is, I don't have a drive to play with. >> >> Does anyone have any or all of the following kicking around? >> >> - MFM or RLL hard drives. I could do with one or two of these;=20 >> anything's good, as long as it has an ST506-style interface (that is,=20 >> straight MFM/RLL with no funny business) and is believed to work. I'm=20 >> ideally aiming for something "of reputable manufacture" -- so not a=20 >> Kalok Octagon! > Alas not. Well, actually, I have a number od such drives, but I have even > more classic computers that use them. So nothing 'spare' > >> - Cable kit for the above. So that's the Data and Control cables --=20 >> edge connector to IDC plug. > Err, the connectors are still avaialble (easily...) So is IDC ribbon > cable. And I assume you own a metalwork vice, since it's so useful for > other things. Which means you could make the cables in less time that > it's taken me to type this. > > >> - MFM/RLL controller to match the drive. Anything goes here -- e.g.=20 >> Western Digital WD100x series, DTC, Omti... as long as I can make it=20 > What do you want as the host computer interface? I am pretty sure I can > find the odd ISA bus one, but what would you use that with? > > -tony > > I have an ST 225 / 238 that I have no particular use for. I'm in Los Angeles. It was a trophy at the local Goodwill Computer works, and I relieved them of it. I don't know where it came from, nor do I have a matching system to run it on at the moment. However it is not going to have priceless data from some system I know of on it, so no data or other attachment to it. Might be nice to drain it, but one has to do what one has to do to develope the first of anything, so wiping it out isn't a real big problem. jim ------------------------------ Message: 27 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 20:46:25 -0600 From: Eric Smith Subject: Re: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1 replica To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <4C7F1001.3040100 at brouhaha.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Richard wrote: > Well, when I try to find out information on Spartan 3 FPGA's on > Xilinx's web site, all the web sections have "Automotive" plastered > all over them. > > Perhaps they are just trying to market to that segment. > The Spartan-3 (no alpha suffix) is now an "older" family (as compared to the -3E, -3A, and -6), so yes, they might only be "pushing" the automotive spec parts, but they are still in full production in the standard commercial and industrial grades. Basically to get information for older devices out of the Xilinx web site requires clicking on "all devices" or some such thing. In fact, even the older Spartan-XL and Spartan-2 families are in full production, though they are not recommended for new designs, and you have to use older ("archived") versions of the ISE software to develop for them. (For Spartan-XL, there is no version of ISE that included HDL synthesis, so I definitely recommend against trying to use those for hobbyist development with Verilog or VHDL.) Beyond that, even some of the XC3000 and XC4000 parts are still in production. AFAIK, the only FPGA families that Xilinx have completely discontinued are the original XC2000 series (introduced in 1985), XC5200 series, and XC6200 series. Generally speaking, it only makes sense to use the most recent two generations of FPGAs for new designs, as the newer parts are always more cost-effective than the older ones, thanks largely to Moore's Law. Usually the only reason not to use the very latest (currently Spartan-6) is that the availability is not as good as the previous generation (Spartan-3E, -3A). Eric ------------------------------ Message: 28 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 20:53:26 -0600 From: Eric Smith Subject: Re: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1 replica To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <4C7F11A6.5070209 at brouhaha.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed geoffrey oltmans wrote: > Don't some FPGAs have dedicated peripherals on them for specific applications > besides the field programmable parts of the silicon? I can't tell you much about Altera, but some of the dedicated hardware in Xilinx FPGAs have included: * block RAMs, 18 or 36 Kbit, in almost all parts * multipliers or multiply/accumulate blocks in many parts * very high speed (>1Gbps) serial transceivers in some parts * a small amount of logic for traditional PCI, in the Spartan-2 * hardware PCIe endpoint logic in the Spartan-6 and Virtex-6 * hardware DDR SDRAM controller in the Spartan-6 and Virtex-6 * PowerPC processor core in some Virtex-4 and Virtex-5 parts * 10/100/1000 Ethernet MAC in some Virtex-5 and Virtex-6 parts For details, such as which parts have how many of what hardware blocks, you'll have to check the datasheets. Generally they only put in hardware blocks for things that can't be implemented reasonably efficiently in the fabric. I consider the 10/100/1000 Ethernet MAC to be an exception to that rule of thumb. Certainly if you want the kinds of traditional peripherals found in early microcomputers (GPIO, timers, UARTs, video display controllers), those will have to be in the fabric. Eric ------------------------------ Message: 29 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 20:03:12 -0700 From: Eric Smith Subject: Re: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1 replica To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <4C7F13F0.8050004 at brouhaha.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Chuck Guzis wrote: > In the eval kits, the Spartan 6 kits seem to offer a significantly > higher bang-for-the-buck than the Spartan 3 ones. Certainly the Spartan-6 chips are far more cost effective than Spartan-3. For eval boards, I'm not convinced that this is the case yet. There aren't nearly as many inexpensive development boards for the -6 yet. I haven't yet seen any inexpensive Spartan-6 boards that seem comparable to the Digilent Spartan-3E or Spartan-3A boards, in terms of FPGA capacity, on-board peripheral interfaces/connectors, and availability of GPIO pins on connectors. Eric End of cctalk Digest, Vol 85, Issue 3 ************************************* From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 05:00:40 2010 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 11:00:40 +0100 Subject: Collection reduction, part II the sequel Message-ID: Morning folks, Slightly less panic now, I almost accidentally fell over a house just half a mile away with enough storage and land for everything I already have that's less money than I'm currently paying - result! I'm still going to try and shift the vast majority of the DEC stuff though, particularly since the terms of the let on the new place are only for 2 years then I have to move again. I now have a chance to find related software etc for those of you who've asked for machines and bits and attempt to ebay the rest. I'm guessing there's no interest at all in my Grey Wall given the online availability of docs and CDs etc, I've dragged it all between houses for 10 years now, maybe it's time to hit the recycler and give some of those trees back :) I've also found 3 more DEC monitors - VRT21 (heavy trinitron model) plus a 17" and 21" workstation monitor, can't remember its designator but it has all the BNC connectors (r/g/b/h/v) and VGA inputs. I also doubt I'll ever do anything with most of the big TRS80 stuff on my Tandy page (http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Tandy/) like the model 2/3/4 and all-in-one model 1 (2nd one on the list - came with a LOT of books and docs). Any interest? I take it nobody wants the MINC-11? I'm not surprised to be honest though, it IS big. Cheers, -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Sep 2 05:07:44 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 12:07:44 +0200 Subject: Collection reduction, part II the sequel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100902100744.GA25971@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Sep 02, 2010 at 11:00:40AM +0100, Adrian Graham wrote: > Morning folks, > > Slightly less panic now, I almost accidentally fell over a house just > half a mile away with enough storage and land for everything I already > have that's less money than I'm currently paying - result! Hooray! > I take it nobody wants the MINC-11? I'm not surprised to be honest > though, it IS big. If it was local! But really, a 11/03 is not that much fun and besides the cool pedistal it is not very special. Have you tried giving it to tnmoc? /P From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 06:24:32 2010 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 12:24:32 +0100 Subject: Collection reduction, part II the sequel In-Reply-To: <20100902100744.GA25971@Update.UU.SE> References: <20100902100744.GA25971@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On 2 September 2010 11:07, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Thu, Sep 02, 2010 at 11:00:40AM +0100, Adrian Graham wrote: >> Morning folks, >> >> Slightly less panic now, I almost accidentally fell over a house just >> half a mile away with enough storage and land for everything I already >> have that's less money than I'm currently paying - result! > > Hooray! :D It's a hells of a weight off my mind I can tell you. Moving stuff from garage to garage will be easy. >> I take it nobody wants the MINC-11? I'm not surprised to be honest >> though, it IS big. > > If it was local! But really, a 11/03 is not that much fun and besides > the cool pedistal it is not very special. Have you tried giving it to > tnmoc? It's a MINC-23 I think, though it's been a while since I looked at the processor board. TNMOC aren't interested unfortunately, the days of giving them a collection are long gone. They didn't even want any of my PETs unless it was an excellent condition chiclet 2001. Which I'm keeping ;) -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home? computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From dbetz at xlisper.com Thu Sep 2 06:47:25 2010 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 07:47:25 -0400 Subject: Lots of TTL chips In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3C580001-8110-4D57-81CF-AE17C168EAD7@xlisper.com> On Sep 1, 2010, at 5:13 PM, David Betz wrote: > Does anyone want a whole slew of 74xxx TTL chips? Most are new although I suspect I bought them from some surplus place back in the '70s so I can't guarantee that they all work. I'm trying to clean out a parts cabinet and I don't want to throw these away if someone can use them. I also have a bunch of 27xxx EPROMs. I think they are mostly 2708s but there are certainly some 2716s and 2732s. I think there are even a few 27160s. I don't have fancy conductive foam to ship these in so you'll get a box full of stuff with possibly some bent pins. Anyone interested? I have people to take all of the chips. Thanks for your interest! From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 2 09:13:55 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 07:13:55 -0700 Subject: Collection reduction, part II the sequel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 11:00 AM +0100 9/2/10, Adrian Graham wrote: >I'm guessing there's no interest at all in my Grey Wall given the >online availability of docs and CDs etc, I've dragged it all between >houses for 10 years now, maybe it's time to hit the recycler and give >some of those trees back :) You're on the wrong side of the Pond, plus we should have more than a complete Grey Wall for the library, and we just got an Orange one. >I've also found 3 more DEC monitors - VRT21 (heavy trinitron model) >plus a 17" and 21" workstation monitor, can't remember its designator >but it has all the BNC connectors (r/g/b/h/v) and VGA inputs. Now this makes me wish you were local, not that I'm sure where I'd put one. I haven't had time to verify since moving, but I've a feeling my last one is dead, or nearly so (ISTR it having started having issues). >I take it nobody wants the MINC-11? I'm not surprised to be honest >though, it IS big. This surprises me. Sure a MINC isn't the fastest box, but it is definitely interesting. I had one for about two hours, sadly I traded it to Jim Willing for an external RX02 drive unit. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Sep 2 09:27:08 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 07:27:08 -0700 Subject: person in the sf bay area that can program a 16R4 In-Reply-To: <9F8A3C29EA8B43069BCB30CA7C12E5EB@mars> References: , <9F8A3C29EA8B43069BCB30CA7C12E5EB@mars> Message-ID: Hi I have a need to have 4 PALs programmed I have the jedec file and 4 TI chips. I just need someone in the area to do them. I'd also consider sending them as well. Dwight From legalize at xmission.com Thu Sep 2 10:26:40 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2010 09:26:40 -0600 Subject: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1 replica In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 01 Sep 2010 20:03:12 -0700. <4C7F13F0.8050004@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: In article <4C7F13F0.8050004 at brouhaha.com>, Eric Smith writes: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > In the eval kits, the Spartan 6 kits seem to offer a significantly > > higher bang-for-the-buck than the Spartan 3 ones. > > Certainly the Spartan-6 chips are far more cost effective than Spartan-3. > > For eval boards, I'm not convinced that this is the case yet. [...] That seems to echo what I was seeing in a casual search for eval/proto boards. The Spartan-6 ones were like $1K but the Spartan-3 ones were like $300. It wasn't a exhaustive search, just a few minutes spent searching. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 10:40:25 2010 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 16:40:25 +0100 Subject: Collection reduction, part II the sequel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2 September 2010 15:13, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 11:00 AM +0100 9/2/10, Adrian Graham wrote: >> >> I'm guessing there's no interest at all in my Grey Wall given the >> online availability of docs and CDs etc, I've dragged it all between >> houses for 10 years now, maybe it's time to hit the recycler and give >> some of those trees back :) > > You're on the wrong side of the Pond, plus we should have more than a > complete Grey Wall for the library, and we just got an Orange one. Fortunately it's looking like the wall will be saved from the pulpers thanks to Dave Caroline, my little fiches too. There's a few orange manuals too but I'm keeping my RT11 stuff. > Now this makes me wish you were local, not that I'm sure where I'd put one. > ?I haven't had time to verify since moving, but I've a feeling my last one > is dead, or nearly so (ISTR it having started having issues). Bah, I'd not fancy shipping it over the water :/ > This surprises me. ?Sure a MINC isn't the fastest box, but it is definitely > interesting. ?I had one for about two hours, sadly I traded it to Jim > Willing for an external RX02 drive unit. Double bonus with this MINC - it has the external RX02! -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home? computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From marvin at west.net Thu Sep 2 12:03:36 2010 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2010 10:03:36 -0700 Subject: Documentation listed on VCGM Message-ID: <4C7FD8E8.1080907@west.net> I just put some documentation up on the Vintage Computer & Gaming Marketplace site: http://marketplace.vintage-computer.com/ These are some of the docs a friend of mine had. Listed right now are the docs for the Western Peripherals TC-120 Nova Tape Controller, Ziatech ZT-7488, and ADDS CONSUL 520/580 Desktop Terminals. Other docs I'll be listing shortly include the ADM-1 Reference Manual (appears to be a copy) and operator's handbook, ADM-2 Maintenance Manual (appears to be a copy) and operator's handbook, and The Operations Manual for the AQ8080Z Microprocessor Analyzer (for use with the Pro-Log 7803.) Later today, I expect to get the HP 9825As checked out and listed (so far, they are in reasonable condition and don't work as I would expect.) Marvin From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 2 13:19:00 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2010 14:19:00 -0400 Subject: Collection reduction, part II the sequel In-Reply-To: <20100902100744.GA25971@Update.UU.SE> References: <20100902100744.GA25971@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4C7FEA94.4070401@neurotica.com> On 9/2/10 6:07 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> I take it nobody wants the MINC-11? I'm not surprised to be honest >> though, it IS big. > > If it was local! But really, a 11/03 is not that much fun and besides > the cool pedistal it is not very special. Have you tried giving it to > tnmoc? A MINC is a lot more than just a PDP-11! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 2 13:20:28 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2010 14:20:28 -0400 Subject: person in the sf bay area that can program a 16R4 In-Reply-To: References: , <9F8A3C29EA8B43069BCB30CA7C12E5EB@mars> Message-ID: <4C7FEAEC.4010206@neurotica.com> On 9/2/10 10:27 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > I have a need to have 4 PALs programmed I have the jedec file > and 4 TI chips. I just need someone in the area to do them. > I'd also consider sending them as well. My programmer can handle them, you'd have to send them obviously. Let me know. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 13:45:43 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 14:45:43 -0400 Subject: MINC-11 (was Re: Collection reduction, part II the sequel) Message-ID: On 9/2/10, Dave McGuire wrote: > A MINC is a lot more than just a PDP-11! While that's certainly true, has anyone on the list ever done anything with the Lab I/O stuff on a MINC? I got one years ago with all the docs and software (everything, really, except for the cart, which the lab kept for something else). Mine only has one or two modules - a clock board and one of the input boards (I'd have to check the exact types), but since I didn't have much, I've only ever booted RT-11 and noodled around on the VT105. ISTR the CPU bay is stuffed with a KDF-11, 256K of memory, an RXV21, a DLV11J, and an IBV11. Over the years, I've been given plenty of Qbus parts, but I've never run across any loose MINC modules. I'm curious if anyone else ever got a MINC loaded enough to do something fun with it. -ethan From tony.eros at machm.org Thu Sep 2 13:53:31 2010 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 14:53:31 -0400 Subject: MINC-11 (was Re: Collection reduction, part II the sequel) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <672e01cb4ad0$25f7f050$71e7d0f0$@machm.org> I have one, but haven't gotten around to playing with it yet. Keep wanting to, though... -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 2:46 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: MINC-11 (was Re: Collection reduction, part II the sequel) On 9/2/10, Dave McGuire wrote: > A MINC is a lot more than just a PDP-11! While that's certainly true, has anyone on the list ever done anything with the Lab I/O stuff on a MINC? I got one years ago with all the docs and software (everything, really, except for the cart, which the lab kept for something else). Mine only has one or two modules - a clock board and one of the input boards (I'd have to check the exact types), but since I didn't have much, I've only ever booted RT-11 and noodled around on the VT105. ISTR the CPU bay is stuffed with a KDF-11, 256K of memory, an RXV21, a DLV11J, and an IBV11. Over the years, I've been given plenty of Qbus parts, but I've never run across any loose MINC modules. I'm curious if anyone else ever got a MINC loaded enough to do something fun with it. -ethan From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Thu Sep 2 14:23:22 2010 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 14:23:22 -0500 (CDT) Subject: MINC-11 (was Re: Collection reduction, part II the sequel) In-Reply-To: <672e01cb4ad0$25f7f050$71e7d0f0$@machm.org> Message-ID: > On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 2:46 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: MINC-11 (was Re: Collection reduction, part II the sequel) > > On 9/2/10, Dave McGuire wrote: > > A MINC is a lot more than just a PDP-11! > > While that's certainly true, has anyone on the list ever done anything with > the Lab I/O stuff on a MINC? I got one years ago with all the docs and > software (everything, really, except for the cart, which the lab kept for > something else). Mine only has one or two modules - a clock board and one > of the input boards (I'd have to check the exact types), but since I didn't > have much, I've only ever booted RT-11 and noodled around on the VT105. > ISTR the CPU bay is stuffed with a KDF-11, 256K of memory, an RXV21, a > DLV11J, and an IBV11. > > Over the years, I've been given plenty of Qbus parts, but I've never run > across any loose MINC modules. I'm curious if anyone else ever got a MINC > loaded enough to do something fun with it. It's never been used for anything "fun" by us, but my Dad has a MINC that was owned by Canterbury University (Christchurch, NZ - I know Ethan knows;) for their Alternative Fuels experiments back in the 80s. They used it for doing all of the ADCs from their chassis dynamometer (which Dad built) and the emissions gear, etc. The unit had almost every one of the slots filled. I'm afraid I'm too young to have been aware of what it was doing when it was in action - I was only five or six when the old man left the project. - JP From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 2 14:31:33 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 12:31:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MINC-11 (was Re: Collection reduction, part II the sequel) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Sep 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 9/2/10, Dave McGuire wrote: >> A MINC is a lot more than just a PDP-11! > > While that's certainly true, has anyone on the list ever done anything > with the Lab I/O stuff on a MINC? I got one years ago with all the > docs and software (everything, really, except for the cart, which the > lab kept for something else). Mine only has one or two modules - a > clock board and one of the input boards (I'd have to check the exact > types), but since I didn't have much, I've only ever booted RT-11 and > noodled around on the VT105. ISTR the CPU bay is stuffed with a > KDF-11, 256K of memory, an RXV21, a DLV11J, and an IBV11. > > Over the years, I've been given plenty of Qbus parts, but I've never > run across any loose MINC modules. I'm curious if anyone else ever > got a MINC loaded enough to do something fun with it. > > -ethan The one I had for a couple hours, only had one or two boards in it. That and the size is why I quickly traded it. Realistically I only bought it for the RX02, so trading for an RX02 was a good deal. On a related note, I have a couple standard q-bus boards (I forget if they are A/D or D/A), but they are usable in a 16-bit system. :-( Zane From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 2 14:33:54 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 20:33:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Collection reduction, part II the sequel In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Sep 2, 10 11:00:40 am Message-ID: > I also doubt I'll ever do anything with most of the big TRS80 stuff on > my Tandy page (http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Tandy/) like > the model 2/3/4 and all-in-one model 1 (2nd one on the list - came > with a LOT of books and docs). Any interest? As somebody who grew up with TRS-80s (M1, them CoCo II, then M3, CoCo III and M4 in essentialyl that order), I would hate it if any of those were thrown out. If you can't find homes for them, I will see if I can house some of it... > > I take it nobody wants the MINC-11? I'm not surprised to be honest > though, it IS big. I already have 3 MINCs... But seriosuly, I am suprised nobody wants it. It's a normal Q18 system really (11/03 or 11/23 processor card) with (normally) GPIN (IBV11 card) and some interesting I/O modules (ADC, DAC, etc). Quite fun toy. Anybody looking for a PDP11 should consider this. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 2 14:48:47 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 20:48:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: MINC-11 (was Re: Collection reduction, part II the sequel) In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Sep 2, 10 02:45:43 pm Message-ID: > > On 9/2/10, Dave McGuire wrote: > > A MINC is a lot more than just a PDP-11! > > While that's certainly true, has anyone on the list ever done anything > with the Lab I/O stuff on a MINC? I got one years ago with all the Sort of. With one of my Mincs, I removed the CPU, RAM and boot boards and replaced the former with the Q-bus end of a DW-11B. That connected the Lab I/O stuff (and the IBV11) to my 11/45 system. I certainly have used the digital I/O modules like that. I think i tested the ADC but never did much with it. What MINC I/O modules are there? I have : ADC, DAC, clock, digital in, digital out, DMM preamp (essentially V/mA/Ohms converters to feeed into the ADC) and thermocouple preamp. I know there was an analogue mutiplexer unit which I;ve not got. Any oters? I seem to rememebr that having 2 clock modules in the same MINC is desirable, you can use them to make a frequency counter or similar. Has anyone ever seen the MINC BASIC system? It wsa essentally an interpreted BASIC with routines to do thigns like generate and display (on a VT105) a historgram of pulse heights, things like that. I don't have it myself, I think I have some of the manuals for it. -tony From dundas at caltech.edu Thu Sep 2 14:58:17 2010 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 12:58:17 -0700 Subject: MINC-11 (was Re: Collection reduction, part II the sequel) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 2:45 PM -0400 9/2/10, Ethan Dicks wrote: >Over the years, I've been given plenty of Qbus parts, but I've never >run across any loose MINC modules. I'm curious if anyone else ever >got a MINC loaded enough to do something fun with it. I don't personally have it, but I have access to one here that was used to control various telescopes at Mt. Palomar. I have archived almost all the printed material for the system and have 5 RL01's, of DEC layered product distributions staring at me for the system, that need to be archived. I also have the spares modules (CPUs, clock, preamp, digital in) and many extra parts for the system. The current owner has promised it to me when he's through. A MINC-23 can be upgraded to a -73 (which ours has), and I would find that VERY interesting. John From dundas at caltech.edu Thu Sep 2 15:01:10 2010 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 13:01:10 -0700 Subject: MINC-11 (was Re: Collection reduction, part II the sequel) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 8:48 PM +0100 9/2/10, Tony Duell wrote: >What MINC I/O modules are there? I have : ADC, DAC, clock, digital in, >digital out, DMM preamp (essentially V/mA/Ohms converters to feeed into >the ADC) and thermocouple preamp. I know there was an analogue mutiplexer >unit which I;ve not got. Any oters? These are the ones I know about: MNCBA The Chassis MNCSE Slot Expander MNCAD Analog/Digital Converter (16 channels) MNCAA Digital/Analog Converter (4 channels) MNCAG Preamplifier (4 channels) MNCAM Analog Multiplexer (increases capacity of A/D by 16 channels) MNCDI Digital Input (16 lines) MNCDO Digital Output (16 lines) MNCKW Real-Time Clock MNCTP Thermocouple Preamplifier (8 channels) There might be others that were released later. John From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 15:41:56 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2010 15:41:56 -0500 Subject: Collection reduction, part II the sequel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C800C14.4050601@gmail.com> Adrian Graham wrote: > Morning folks, > > Slightly less panic now, I almost accidentally fell over a house just > half a mile away with enough storage and land for everything I already > have that's less money than I'm currently paying - result! This is one of those times where email needs an "I like this" button ;-) Seriously, good news. Sorry I won't be there to help you move it all this time around! cheers Jules From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 16:22:07 2010 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 14:22:07 -0700 Subject: MINC-11 (was Re: Collection reduction, part II the sequel) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 12:58 PM, John A. Dundas III wrote: > > A MINC-23 can be upgraded to a -73 (which ours has), and I would find that > VERY interesting. > Is the standard backplane 18-bit or 22-bit? Do you need to mod the backplane to upgrade to an -73? I have a MINC-23 currently sitting idle in my garage. If I ever decide to part with it shipping it (Seattle area) would be a challenge. -Glen From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Sep 2 16:58:47 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 22:58:47 +0100 Subject: Collection reduction, part II the sequel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00fa01cb4aea$09317530$1b945f90$@ntlworld.com> I would definitely be interested in a TRS-80! Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Graham > Sent: 02 September 2010 11:01 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Collection reduction, part II the sequel > > Morning folks, > > Slightly less panic now, I almost accidentally fell over a house just half a mile > away with enough storage and land for everything I already have that's less > money than I'm currently paying - result! > > I'm still going to try and shift the vast majority of the DEC stuff though, > particularly since the terms of the let on the new place are only for 2 years > then I have to move again. I now have a chance to find related software etc > for those of you who've asked for machines and bits and attempt to ebay the > rest. > > I'm guessing there's no interest at all in my Grey Wall given the online > availability of docs and CDs etc, I've dragged it all between houses for 10 > years now, maybe it's time to hit the recycler and give some of those trees > back :) > > I've also found 3 more DEC monitors - VRT21 (heavy trinitron model) plus a > 17" and 21" workstation monitor, can't remember its designator but it has all > the BNC connectors (r/g/b/h/v) and VGA inputs. > > I also doubt I'll ever do anything with most of the big TRS80 stuff on my Tandy > page (http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Tandy/) like the model > 2/3/4 and all-in-one model 1 (2nd one on the list - came with a LOT of books > and docs). Any interest? > > I take it nobody wants the MINC-11? I'm not surprised to be honest though, > it IS big. > > Cheers, > > -- > adrian/witchy > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From dundas at caltech.edu Thu Sep 2 17:11:56 2010 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 15:11:56 -0700 Subject: MINC-11 (was Re: Collection reduction, part II the sequel) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 2:22 PM -0700 9/2/10, Glen Slick wrote: >On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 12:58 PM, John A. Dundas III > wrote: >> >> A MINC-23 can be upgraded to a -73 (which ours has), and I would find that >> VERY interesting. >> > >Is the standard backplane 18-bit or 22-bit? Do you need to mod the >backplane to upgrade to an -73? It's on the other side of campus at the moment so I can't eyeball, but I believe the standard was 18-bit. Note that a -73 will work in an -18 bit environment, so you're not required to modify the backplane. Whether the MINC modules themselves play well with 22-bit backplanes, I don't know. John From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Sep 2 17:18:23 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 15:18:23 -0700 Subject: MINC-11 (was Re: Collection reduction, part II the sequel) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, it's 18 bit. Mine has a third-party memory board that can be upgraded to 256kW, but it doesn't do me any good! Also, the original version of the BASIC software would not run properly on an 11/23 processor - it's necessary to have the 1.2 version. I have the A/D, D/A, clock and preamp modules. I don't have a VT105 so I can't play with some of the fun BASIC software (which I have), but one of these days in my Copious Spare Time I'm planning to write a translator to Tek codes so it will play on my 4209. I remember using one of these Back In The Day and it nicely filled the time domain between a high-precision voltmeter and a scope. -- Ian > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John A. Dundas III > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 3:12 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: MINC-11 (was Re: Collection reduction, part II the sequel) > > At 2:22 PM -0700 9/2/10, Glen Slick wrote: > >On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 12:58 PM, John A. Dundas III > > wrote: > >> > >> A MINC-23 can be upgraded to a -73 (which ours has), and I would > find that > >> VERY interesting. > >> > > > >Is the standard backplane 18-bit or 22-bit? Do you need to mod the > >backplane to upgrade to an -73? > > It's on the other side of campus at the moment so I can't eyeball, > but I believe the standard was 18-bit. > > Note that a -73 will work in an -18 bit environment, so you're not > required to modify the backplane. Whether the MINC modules > themselves play well with 22-bit backplanes, I don't know. > > John From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Sep 2 18:44:55 2010 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 16:44:55 -0700 Subject: MINC-11 (was Re: Collection reduction, part II the sequel) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201009021644.56233.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Thursday 02 September 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 9/2/10, Dave McGuire wrote: > > A MINC is a lot more than just a PDP-11! > > While that's certainly true, has anyone on the list ever done anything > with the Lab I/O stuff on a MINC? I got one years ago with all the > docs and software (everything, really, except for the cart, which the > lab kept for something else). Mine only has one or two modules - a > clock board and one of the input boards (I'd have to check the exact > types), but since I didn't have much, I've only ever booted RT-11 and > noodled around on the VT105. ISTR the CPU bay is stuffed with a > KDF-11, 256K of memory, an RXV21, a DLV11J, and an IBV11. > > Over the years, I've been given plenty of Qbus parts, but I've never > run across any loose MINC modules. I'm curious if anyone else ever > got a MINC loaded enough to do something fun with it. I have a working MINC/DECLAB-23 with the following: MINC Components --------------- (1) MNCAM Dual Multiplexer (1) MNCAG Preamp (1) MNCAD A/D (1) MNCAA D/A (2) MNCKW Clock 11/23 Components ---------------- M8043 DLV11J 4 port serial M8029 RXV21 RX02 Controller w/RX02 M8059KP Memory 128KW M8186YB 11/23 CPU w/MMU&FP11 M7954 IBV11 IEEE488 I also have all MINC manuals and MINC BASIC, etc. At the moment, I have a slight bug in one channel of the MNCAM, but other that that, everything passes MINC diagnostics. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley, AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 2 22:09:18 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 20:09:18 -0700 Subject: Minolta MS3000 Microfilm Scanner Message-ID: Does anyone happen to know where to get parts for one of these? At a minimum I need lenses to get it working. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 22:46:42 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 22:46:42 -0500 Subject: Please help me identify this case Message-ID: I've been looking for this case for years. And I stumbled upon it on ebay. Here's the listing. The price is also has some comedy value. http://cgi.ebay.com/AMAZING-VINTAGE-ONE-OWNER-ATARI-LOT-PRISTINE-MINT-/360296763509?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53e35c5075 I'm interested in the full heigh 5.25" case to the right in the photos with what looks like a floppy drive and a half height hard drive. Is there a name or model number for this case? And would anyone be willing to part with one? thanks. brian From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Sep 2 23:24:32 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 21:24:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 2-inch floppy usage Message-ID: I distinctly remember a dedicated word processing machine that used 2-inch or 2.5-inch floppies. Does anyone remember what it/they were? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 2 23:38:45 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2010 21:38:45 -0700 Subject: 2-inch floppy usage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C801965.21345.2CD6BD9@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Sep 2010 at 21:24, David Griffith wrote: > I distinctly remember a dedicated word processing machine that used > 2-inch or 2.5-inch floppies. Does anyone remember what it/they were? 2.8" maybe? Such as the Smith-Corona PWP? The Zenith Minisport used 2" floppies, but it was a portable PC, not a wapro. --Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Sep 2 23:51:28 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 21:51:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 2-inch floppy usage In-Reply-To: <4C801965.21345.2CD6BD9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C801965.21345.2CD6BD9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Sep 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2 Sep 2010 at 21:24, David Griffith wrote: > >> I distinctly remember a dedicated word processing machine that used >> 2-inch or 2.5-inch floppies. Does anyone remember what it/they were? > > 2.8" maybe? Such as the Smith-Corona PWP? > > The Zenith Minisport used 2" floppies, but it was a portable PC, not > a wapro. You're right. I was thinking of the Quickdisk. This question was prompted by my updating http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floppy_disk to re-add mention of a 2-inch disk other than the Video Floppy. A client of mine has a 2-inch disk on his wall that is quite different from a VF and I'm trying to figure out what it really is. I asked him for a scan of that disk, so we'll soon see what was what. By the way, the two articles "Floppy disk" and "History of the floppy disk" need some work to deal with duplicated material. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Sep 2 23:57:59 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 21:57:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: seeking twiggy floppy image for wikipedia Message-ID: Could someone here make a high-resolution scan of a Twiggy floppy that I can put on Wikipedia? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 3 00:20:29 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2010 22:20:29 -0700 Subject: seeking twiggy floppy image for wikipedia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C80232D.20500.2F3A148@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Sep 2010 at 21:57, David Griffith wrote: > > Could someone here make a high-resolution scan of a Twiggy floppy that > I can put on Wikipedia? > > -- Like this one? http://www.vintagecomputing.com/wp- content/images/retroscan/twiggy_1_large.jpg From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 3 00:27:02 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2010 22:27:02 -0700 Subject: 2-inch floppy usage In-Reply-To: References: , <4C801965.21345.2CD6BD9@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4C8024B6.1155.2F99F86@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Sep 2010 at 21:51, David Griffith wrote: > You're right. I was thinking of the Quickdisk. This question was > prompted by my updating http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floppy_disk to > re-add mention of a 2-inch disk other than the Video Floppy. A client > of mine has a 2-inch disk on his wall that is quite different from a > VF and I'm trying to figure out what it really is. I asked him for a > scan of that disk, so we'll soon see what was what. There was a fellow from China posting a blog entry on Erik's VCF who asked about a 3" floppy that didn't resemble anything that I'd ever seen. Plastic jacket, but with a V-shaped cutout that exposed the media. My guess was perhaps an office machine of some kind, probably a typewriter. Sadly, his site with the photo has joined the Great Bit Bucket in the sky. --Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Sep 3 00:49:37 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 22:49:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: seeking twiggy floppy image for wikipedia In-Reply-To: <4C80232D.20500.2F3A148@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C80232D.20500.2F3A148@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Sep 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2 Sep 2010 at 21:57, David Griffith wrote: > >> Could someone here make a high-resolution scan of a Twiggy floppy that >> I can put on Wikipedia? > > Like this one? > > http://www.vintagecomputing.com/wp- > content/images/retroscan/twiggy_1_large.jpg Perfect! Now to come up with a proper license for it. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Fri Sep 3 01:54:40 2010 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 22:54:40 -0800 Subject: Please help me identify this case In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <908F6106D94.000000CFn0body.h0me@inbox.com> Generic, cheap Taiwanese-made stuff from the mid-80's. I imagine there were many makers of these. I used one with the MAD-1 I had at the time . . . > -----Original Message----- > From: brianlanning at gmail.com > Sent: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 22:46:42 -0500 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Please help me identify this case > > I've been looking for this case for years. And I stumbled upon it on > ebay. Here's the listing. The price is also has some comedy value. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/AMAZING-VINTAGE-ONE-OWNER-ATARI-LOT-PRISTINE-MINT-/360296763509?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53e35c5075 > > I'm interested in the full heigh 5.25" case to the right in the photos > with what looks like a floppy drive and a half height hard drive. Is > there a name or model number for this case? And would anyone be > willing to part with one? > > thanks. > > brian ____________________________________________________________ Send any screenshot to your friends in seconds... Works in all emails, instant messengers, blogs, forums and social networks. TRY IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if2 for FREE From lproven at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 05:38:37 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 11:38:37 +0100 Subject: WTD -- ST506 style (MFM or RLL) hard drive and controller In-Reply-To: <4C7EBCB2.6060504@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C7EBCB2.6060504@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On 1 September 2010 21:50, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 31/08/10 13:48, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Alas not. Well, actually, I have a number od such drives, but I have even >> more classic computers that use them. So nothing 'spare' > > Yeah, I've heard of a lot of folk in the same situation. > > I'm actually getting slightly tempted to hunt down a 1st-gen Acorn > Archimedes with Acorn-installed ST506 hard drive. That would give me a drive > and a known-good controller. Might be able to help you there, actually. Not sure of running condition but I think I still have my A305 + 1MB RAM upgrade. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 05:39:32 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 11:39:32 +0100 Subject: WTD -- ST506 style (MFM or RLL) hard drive and controller In-Reply-To: <20100901210349.37AC2A580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <4C7EBCB2.6060504@philpem.me.uk> <20100901210349.37AC2A580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On 1 September 2010 22:03, Dennis Boone wrote: > My understanding is that there's enough variation in the low level > formatting between controllers that MFM drives aren't very portable. > That could be interpreted as timing differences between models, or as > timing variations in different instances of the same model, or even > actual structure differences. ?I don't know which was meant by whatever > source told me this long ago. This was as I recall it, too, but back in the '80s I did occasionally successfully move ST506 MFM and RLL drives between controllers. Always in fairly generic IBM-branded kit, though. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 05:45:52 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 11:45:52 +0100 Subject: Collection reduction, part II the sequel In-Reply-To: <20100902100744.GA25971@Update.UU.SE> References: <20100902100744.GA25971@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On 2 September 2010 11:07, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Thu, Sep 02, 2010 at 11:00:40AM +0100, Adrian Graham wrote: >> Morning folks, >> >> Slightly less panic now, I almost accidentally fell over a house just >> half a mile away with enough storage and land for everything I already >> have that's less money than I'm currently paying - result! > > Hooray! > >> I take it nobody wants the MINC-11? I'm not surprised to be honest >> though, it IS big. > > If it was local! You rent a vehilcle, I'll drive it to you. :?) It's been far too long since I've visited my friends in Stockholm; it is time I returned. Side-trip on the way not a problem. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 06:27:51 2010 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 12:27:51 +0100 Subject: Collection reduction, part II the sequel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2 September 2010 20:33, Tony Duell wrote: > > As somebody who grew up with TRS-80s (M1, them CoCo II, then M3, CoCo III > and M4 in essentialyl that order), I would hate it if any of those were > thrown out. If you can't find homes for them, I will see if I can house > some of it... Don't worry Tony, I won't be chucking and Tandy stuff but if I suddenly need the room I know where you are :) > I already have 3 MINCs... But seriosuly, I am suprised nobody wants it. > It's a normal Q18 system really (11/03 or 11/23 processor card) with > (normally) GPIN (IBV11 card) and some interesting I/O modules (ADC, DAC, > etc). Quite fun toy. Anybody looking for a PDP11 should consider this. Happily I might have a taker for the MINC, possibly two. Hopefully it'll go to someone braver than I who will power it up... now I need to find the box with the software in. which includes BASIC. I never got the VT105 or VT125 for it though, but it DID come with a DECwriter III that I took on as a restoration project that never got off the ground thanks to having to move house a couple of times... -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home? computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 06:33:19 2010 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 12:33:19 +0100 Subject: MINC-11 (was Re: Collection reduction, part II the sequel) In-Reply-To: <201009021644.56233.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <201009021644.56233.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: On 3 September 2010 00:44, Lyle Bickley wrote: > > I also have all MINC manuals and MINC BASIC, etc. > > At the moment, I have a slight bug in one channel of the MNCAM, but other that that, everything passes MINC diagnostics. > You're all making me want to attempt to power mine up now! Mind, it's been in 2 watertight-but-not-fully-wind-tight garages for 6 or 7 years so at minimum the RX02 will need to be stripped and cleaned fully. -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home? computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 09:25:47 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 10:25:47 -0400 Subject: MINC-11 (was Re: Collection reduction, part II the sequel) In-Reply-To: <201009021644.56233.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <201009021644.56233.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: On 9/2/10, Lyle Bickley wrote: > I have a working MINC/DECLAB-23 with the following... Lyle, Your post has jogged my memory. I'm pretty sure I have the following: MINC Components --------------- (1) MNCAG Preamp (1) MNCKW Clock 11/23 Components ---------------- (1) M8186 11/23 CPU w/MMU (4) M8044 MOS Memory 32KW (1) M8043 DLV11J 4 port serial (1) M8029 RXV21 RX02 Controller w/RX02 (1) M7954 IBV11 IEEE488 (1) M8012 BDV-11 bootstrap and terminator ISTR the MINC module slots are CD slots (with wide spacing), so it might not be difficult to mount an RLV11 in there, too, but I haven't tried it. -ethan From billdeg at degnanco.com Fri Sep 3 09:59:33 2010 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 10:59:33 -0400 Subject: Looking for assistance PDP 11/05 Console I/O Message-ID: We have been working to establish some sort of I/O, preferably RS232 with a PDP 11/05 After spending many hours on the problem we came up empty. The computer itself appears to be OK, the continuity cards are in the right places, the core RAM works, simple test programs function properly. For example entering code from 177700: 000240 000777 the computer will set the lowest address bit to 0-1-0-1 continuously. The current configuration is M9970 M7260 M7261 M920/H214 G110 G231 Grant UNIBUS bridge M7856 Grant Grant We don't have a device for 20ma current loop-ing so we're trying to use the M7856 for RS232 communications. We're not sure what ports to use with the M7856 while a M9970 is also installed, does a conflict exist? We have found the following resources and worked through what info was provided there http://www.shiresoft.com/pdp-11/11-10/index.html http://www.pdp-11.nl/per...terface/dl11w-info.html http://www.bitsavers.org...-DL11W-OP-001_May77.pdf If anyone on this list can assist with diagnostic steps it would be greatly appreciated. For example an octal listing for a character echo program. Please contact me directly. We're not sure what port to use for RS232, the default teletype port seems to be 60. I think we're close, and it's also possible that there is a problem with the card. The switch settings appear to be OK. Thanks Bill Degnan From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Sep 3 10:42:27 2010 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 08:42:27 -0700 Subject: Looking for assistance PDP 11/05 Console I/O In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The problem is that the 11/05 CPU has a (sort of) serial console built in. So if you install an M7856 that is also set as the default console CSR you'll have problems. For test purposes I'd set up an M7856 (with the LTC disabled) at an alternate address and try a simple (toggled in) test program to see if you can get any output to it. As I recall there were (at least) 3 different revs of the 11/05 (or 11/10) CPU boards. The last rev, allowed you to disable the built-in SLU (the best option IMHO) and use a *real* SLU. Part of the problem is that the SLU on the CPU was pretty flakey. Rather than use a crystal to generate the frequency they used a multivibrator set up which caused the frequency to be all over the place. One of the CPU variants allowed an external clock generator to be used. The M9970 I believe also brought out all of the TTL levels so one thought is to cable up an external board that has RS232 drivers and a (crystal based) baud rate generator. It should give better results than just doing what's internal. I gave up on that idea once I found out I could disable it on my CPU board set. TTFN - Guy On Sep 3, 2010, at 7:59 AM, Bill Degnan wrote: > We have been working to establish some sort of I/O, preferably RS232 with a > PDP 11/05 > > After spending many hours on the problem we came up empty. > > The computer itself appears to be OK, the continuity cards are in the right > places, the core RAM works, simple test programs function properly. For > example entering code from 177700: 000240 000777 the computer will set the > lowest address bit to 0-1-0-1 continuously. > > The current configuration is > M9970 > M7260 > M7261 > M920/H214 > G110 > G231 > Grant > UNIBUS bridge > M7856 > Grant > Grant > > We don't have a device for 20ma current loop-ing so we're trying to use the > M7856 for RS232 communications. We're not sure what ports to use with the > M7856 while a M9970 is also installed, does a conflict exist? > > We have found the following resources and worked through what info was > provided there > http://www.shiresoft.com/pdp-11/11-10/index.html > http://www.pdp-11.nl/per...terface/dl11w-info.html > http://www.bitsavers.org...-DL11W-OP-001_May77.pdf > > > If anyone on this list can assist with diagnostic steps it would be greatly > appreciated. For example an octal listing for a character echo program. > Please contact me directly. We're not sure what port to use for RS232, the > default teletype port seems to be 60. I think we're close, and it's also > possible that there is a problem with the card. The switch settings appear > to be OK. > > Thanks > > > Bill Degnan > > From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 10:56:57 2010 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 17:56:57 +0200 Subject: Looking for assistance PDP 11/05 Console I/O In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 16:59, Bill Degnan wrote: > We have been working to establish some sort of I/O, preferably RS232 with a > PDP 11/05 > ... > > If anyone on this list can assist with diagnostic steps it would be greatly > appreciated. For example an octal listing for a character echo program. > There are examples in any PDP-11 related book, as far as I remember, kind of "Hello, World" syndrome. Google 177560, including in google books, you might find a page like this one http://www.fpns.net/willy/pdp11/pdptrbsh.htm A cheap oscilloscope could help, too! -- Stephane http://conservatique.com From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 3 11:08:06 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2010 09:08:06 -0700 Subject: Please help me identify this case In-Reply-To: <908F6106D94.000000CFn0body.h0me@inbox.com> References: , <908F6106D94.000000CFn0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: <4C80BAF6.3877.20D4F7@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Sep 2010 at 22:54, N0body H0me wrote: > Generic, cheap Taiwanese-made stuff from the > mid-80's. I imagine there were many makers > of these. > > I used one with the MAD-1 I had at the time . . . Yup, you could find them at just about any computer fair during the 80s. Essentially made to match the 5150 look with an internal PSU. I have one and might be willing to let it go for doubloons, but would prefer to trade for something interesting. --Chuck From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 09:15:38 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 10:15:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Please help me identify this case In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Sep 2010, Brian Lanning wrote: > I've been looking for this case for years. And I stumbled upon it on > ebay. Here's the listing. The price is also has some comedy value. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/AMAZING-VINTAGE-ONE-OWNER-ATARI-LOT-PRISTINE-MINT-/360296763509?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53e35c5075 > > I'm interested in the full heigh 5.25" case to the right in the photos > with what looks like a floppy drive and a half height hard drive. Is > there a name or model number for this case? And would anyone be > willing to part with one? The asking price reflects either unreasonable aspiration or dementia - thanks for the laughs! I have picked up full-height cases of that form factor at swap meets, hamfests, etc. over the years. However, since "recycle" mania has hit, they are admittedly getting difficult to come by. There's a special place in Hell for misguided Green recyclying initiatives that crush vintage equipment and ship it to China. I made one or two attempts at hanging around one of the local crush-fests in hopes of picking the pile. Was chased off in no uncertain terms. Do not kid yourselves, these are money-making ventures for someone! Steve -- From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 11:30:22 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 11:30:22 -0500 Subject: Please help me identify this case In-Reply-To: <4C80BAF6.3877.20D4F7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <908F6106D94.000000CFn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4C80BAF6.3877.20D4F7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 11:08 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Yup, you could find them at just about any computer fair during the > 80s. ?Essentially made to match the 5150 look with an internal PSU. > > I have one and might be willing to let it go for doubloons, but would > prefer to trade for something interesting. What would you find interesting? And are you anywhere near chicago? brian From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 3 11:46:09 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2010 09:46:09 -0700 Subject: Please help me identify this case In-Reply-To: References: , <4C80BAF6.3877.20D4F7@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4C80C3E1.19845.43ADDD@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Sep 2010 at 11:30, Brian Lanning wrote: > On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 11:08 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Yup, you could find them at just about any computer fair during the > > 80s. ?Essentially made to match the 5150 look with an internal PSU. > > > I have one and might be willing to let it go for doubloons, but > would > prefer to trade for something interesting. > > What would you find interesting? And are you anywhere near chicago? 1790 miles, give or take. Let's discuss this more off-list. --Chuck From keithvz at verizon.net Fri Sep 3 12:31:26 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2010 13:31:26 -0400 Subject: Please help me identify this case In-Reply-To: <4C80C3E1.19845.43ADDD@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4C80BAF6.3877.20D4F7@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C80C3E1.19845.43ADDD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C8130EE.3090208@verizon.net> On 9/3/2010 12:46 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> What would you find interesting? And are you anywhere near chicago? > > 1790 miles, give or take. Let's discuss this more off-list. > > --Chuck Ok, this might be fun. :) http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/distances.html?n=64 scroll down to 1790 miles. Either California(Sacramento, San Buenaventura, Oxnard, Modesto, Stockton) or Eugene, OR. Your domain confirmed it. :) Keith From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Fri Sep 3 12:52:24 2010 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (F.J. Kraan) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2010 19:52:24 +0200 Subject: MINC-11 (was Re: Collection reduction, part II the sequel) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C8135D8.1090609@xs4all.nl> > Has anyone ever seen the MINC BASIC system? It wsa essentally an > interpreted BASIC with routines to do thigns like generate and display > (on a VT105) a historgram of pulse heights, things like that. I don't > have it myself, I think I have some of the manuals for it. > I got it with my mini-MINC, essentially a PDT-150. But it came without the VT-105, so no graphics. Later I got a VT-125, which should emulate a VT-105, but apparantly not seamless. The images of the disks are here: http://electrickery.xs4all.nl/comp/miniminc/floppyImages/info.html. I also have the manual set, but scanned the mini-MINC specific parts only so far (http://electrickery.xs4all.nl/comp/miniminc/doc/). > -tony > Fred Jan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 13:03:21 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 14:03:21 -0400 Subject: MINC-11 (was Re: Collection reduction, part II the sequel) In-Reply-To: <4C8135D8.1090609@xs4all.nl> References: <4C8135D8.1090609@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On 9/3/10, F.J. Kraan wrote: >> Has anyone ever seen the MINC BASIC system? ... >> > I got it with my mini-MINC, essentially a PDT-150. But it came without > the VT-105, so no graphics. I should get my VT105 and my PDT-150 in the same room. Thanks for sharing the MiniMINC stuff. It's got me thinking what I could do for data collection via serial port (a lot, given how cheap an Atmel MCU is these days, and how easy it is to read temp, etc, from one of those and format the results as ASCII strings). -ethan From keithvz at verizon.net Fri Sep 3 13:11:39 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2010 14:11:39 -0400 Subject: Looking for TI SN75413 pin layout In-Reply-To: <4C7D72D8.7030605@neurotica.com> References: <4C7D2CF2.5060102@xs4all.nl> <4C7D3259.2010703@neurotica.com> <201008311718.50607.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4C7D72D8.7030605@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C813A5B.9000608@verizon.net> On 8/31/2010 5:23 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 8/31/10 5:18 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >>> Sent as attachment in private mail. (lazy today) >> >> Email isn't a file transfer service!!! > > It certainly isn't. I was feeling rather lazy, as I said. ;) > >> Sorry, I couldn't resist. :) > > I'll get you one of these days! ;) > > -Dave > Dave, Sorry for the late reply. But I just noticed that your "get you"/"haunt you" list seems to be getting bigger by the day. :) Do you maintain this in a spreadsheet? Using Excel, of course. :) Keith From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 3 12:40:06 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 18:40:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: MINC-11 (was Re: Collection reduction, part II the sequel) In-Reply-To: from "John A. Dundas III" at Sep 2, 10 01:01:10 pm Message-ID: Incidnetally, I believe the MINC backplane has the normal Q18 connections and CD interconnect (certianly an RLV11, which uses CD interconenct between its 2 boards will work in the CPU bay, but I think there's CD interconnect between the MINC modules too, to cpmmect the analoge input moduels to the ADC, the clock to the ADC (for sampling at a given time interval) and so on/ > >What MINC I/O modules are there? I have : ADC, DAC, clock, digital in, > >digital out, DMM preamp (essentially V/mA/Ohms converters to feeed into > >the ADC) and thermocouple preamp. I know there was an analogue mutiplexer > >unit which I;ve not got. Any oters? > > These are the ones I know about: > > MNCBA The Chassis > MNCSE Slot Expander Now that I;ve not seen. What is it? > MNCAD Analog/Digital Converter (16 channels) Strictly a single-channel ADC (12 bit?) with a 16 inptu mux on the input and the capability to connect other multiplexers to that input node. > MNCAA Digital/Analog Converter (4 channels) That one is 4 separate DACs IIRC. > MNCAG Preamplifier (4 channels) That's the DMM unit I was thinking of. It's quite useful. It includes a4 channel mux and doesn't use up any of the 16 ADC inputs. Somebody is going to murder me, but about 5 years ago I was at an auction and a MINC turned up. It contained quite a few modules, including the MNCAG and the MNCTP, neither of which are common. It was the floppy disk model (dRX02) on the trolley and it was a MINC-23. It sold for \pounds 2.00 (I am not kidding). Yes I was the winning bidder. I actually bought it to get those 2 modules, but of course I've kept the whole thing. > MNCAM Analog Multiplexer (increases capacity of A/D by 16 channels) > MNCDI Digital Input (16 lines) > MNCDO Digital Output (16 lines) > MNCKW Real-Time Clock > MNCTP Thermocouple Preamplifier (8 channels) > > There might be others that were released later. Yes, thsoeare the ones I know about (apart form the slot expander). Anyone know of any others? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 3 13:15:45 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 19:15:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Looking for assistance PDP 11/05 Console I/O In-Reply-To: from "Bill Degnan" at Sep 3, 10 10:59:33 am Message-ID: > The current configuration is > M9970 > M7260 > M7261 > M920/H214 > G110 > G231 > Grant > UNIBUS bridge > M7856 > Grant > Grant > > We don't have a device for 20ma current loop-ing so we're trying to use the > M7856 for RS232 communications. We're not sure what ports to use with the > M7856 while a M9970 is also installed, does a conflict exist? The serial port on one of the CPU boards uses the standard console port addresses, so if youset another DL11 to the same address then there's a conflcit. You can use a DL11 at a differnet address, of course, but standard OSes will not use it as the console. On the later 11/05 CPU boards (which I don;t think yours are, but you'll have to check the printset) there is a soldered jumper you can fit to disable the internal console port.. At which point you can use a DL11. But there is nothinglike that on the original CPU boards. What I can't rememebr is if the PDP11/05 also ahs the TTL-level serial lines on the connecotr (I know it doesn't have RS232 ones). if it does, then it's asimple job to link up a MAX232 or similar. The other option is to build a current loop conerter. It's not that difficult... -tony From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Sep 3 13:33:33 2010 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 11:33:33 -0700 Subject: MINC-11 (was Re: Collection reduction, part II the sequel) In-Reply-To: References: <201009021644.56233.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <201009031133.33754.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Ethan, On Friday 03 September 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 9/2/10, Lyle Bickley wrote: > > I have a working MINC/DECLAB-23 with the following... > > Lyle, > > Your post has jogged my memory. I'm pretty sure I have the following: > > MINC Components > --------------- > (1) MNCAG Preamp > (1) MNCKW Clock > > 11/23 Components > ---------------- > (1) M8186 11/23 CPU w/MMU > (4) M8044 MOS Memory 32KW > > (1) M8043 DLV11J 4 port serial > (1) M8029 RXV21 RX02 Controller w/RX02 > (1) M7954 IBV11 IEEE488 > (1) M8012 BDV-11 bootstrap and terminator > You also jogged my memory - my MINC also has (as all MINCs do) an M8012 bootstrap and terminator. > ISTR the MINC module slots are CD slots (with wide spacing), so it > might not be difficult to mount an RLV11 in there, too, but I haven't > tried it. According to the MDL 23 Eng. Drawings an RLV11 should be installed as follows: Slot 4 M8013, Slot 5 M8014 - i.e.: Slot Board 1 M8186 2 M8044 3 M8044 4 M8013 5 M8014 6 M7954 7 M8043 ... Cheers, Lyle > > -ethan > > -- Lyle Bickley, AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Fri Sep 3 13:37:39 2010 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 13:37:39 -0500 Subject: documentation needed - AMD LabPro/Digelec PLD programmer Message-ID: <216E17434A3D4065BD3700C6D6E09E93@obie> A recent hamfest yielded a beautiful AMD LabPro Digelec PLD programmer, along with PALASM software and several pounds of programmable devices. The only thing lacking are docs for operating the programmer. It's reasonably self explanatory in local mode but I'd like to figure out how to connect with a PC to allow file transfers to and from the device. Anybody have the docs or experience with this device? Thanks, Jack From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 3 13:41:06 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2010 14:41:06 -0400 Subject: Looking for TI SN75413 pin layout In-Reply-To: <4C813A5B.9000608@verizon.net> References: <4C7D2CF2.5060102@xs4all.nl> <4C7D3259.2010703@neurotica.com> <201008311718.50607.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4C7D72D8.7030605@neurotica.com> <4C813A5B.9000608@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C814142.9020207@neurotica.com> On 9/3/10 2:11 PM, Keith M wrote: >>>> Sent as attachment in private mail. (lazy today) >>> >>> Email isn't a file transfer service!!! >> >> It certainly isn't. I was feeling rather lazy, as I said. ;) >> >>> Sorry, I couldn't resist. :) >> >> I'll get you one of these days! ;) > > Sorry for the late reply. > > But I just noticed that your "get you"/"haunt you" list seems to be > getting bigger by the day. :) Well, it's long, but I've been mellowing with age, so new additions are infrequent. ;) > Do you maintain this in a spreadsheet? Using Excel, of course. :) Shit, I use a heavily-indexed database with custom query tools! ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 3 13:52:41 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 19:52:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: MINC-11 (was Re: Collection reduction, part II the sequel) In-Reply-To: <4C8135D8.1090609@xs4all.nl> from "F.J. Kraan" at Sep 3, 10 07:52:24 pm Message-ID: > I got it with my mini-MINC, essentially a PDT-150. But it came without This has always puzzled me. The PDT-150 is essentally a closed system, no expansion bus. And AFAIK it doens'timclude a ADC. So what makes a mini-MINC a modular _intstrument_ computer. How do you use it to meaurevoltages or whatever? -tony From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Sep 3 14:42:21 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2010 15:42:21 -0400 Subject: MINC-11 (was Re: Collection reduction, part II the sequel) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C814F9D.20909@verizon.net> On 09/03/2010 02:52 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I got it with my mini-MINC, essentially a PDT-150. But it came without >> > This has always puzzled me. The PDT-150 is essentally a closed system, no > expansion bus. And AFAIK it doens'timclude a ADC. So what makes a > mini-MINC a modular _intstrument_ computer. How do you use it to > meaurevoltages or whatever? > > -tony > > > PDT-150 is a bounded system, no internal options to speak of (assuming full memory and serial option). As is the PDT130 (TU58 mass storage) and PDT110 (no mass storage). It has multiple serial ports. A/D, D/A and other general IO can be done via serial communications. I'm sure if it had a IEE488 bus port you would not have asked the question but, serial works and there are many instruments out there that have serial as an option. I know this as I'd used a Keithly High resolution DMM with a external 4 wire switch (also serial control) to build a 10 position test station. Allison From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 15:32:47 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 16:32:47 -0400 Subject: MINC-11 (was Re: Collection reduction, part II the sequel) In-Reply-To: References: <4C8135D8.1090609@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On 9/3/10, Tony Duell wrote: >> I got it with my mini-MINC, essentially a PDT-150. But it came without > > This has always puzzled me. The PDT-150 is essentally a closed system, no > expansion bus. And AFAIK it doens'timclude a ADC. So what makes a > mini-MINC a modular _intstrument_ computer. How do you use it to > meaurevoltages or whatever? Directly, there isn't an obvious way. I'm guessing they sold the MiniMINC for writing analysis code more than for direct measurement, though it could sample data from some sort of serial data logger. -etthan From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 3 17:37:14 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2010 18:37:14 -0400 Subject: road trip, east coast Message-ID: <4C81789A.7090909@neurotica.com> Hey folks. I realize this is short notice, but on Tuesday the 7th I'll be hitting the road from Port Charlotte, FL (Gulf coast south of Tampa) and driving a mostly-empty 16' box truck up to the Washington DC area. I am willing to transport stuff along that route, within a reasonable distance of the 95 corridor, for reasonable compensation. In the middle of the following week, likely around the 14th, I'll be driving back down the same route. I will have less space available then, but I should have some free room. Contact me directly via email if interested. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From marvin at west.net Fri Sep 3 18:39:31 2010 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2010 16:39:31 -0700 Subject: Lobo Drives Manual on Craigslist Message-ID: <4C818733.6040500@west.net> I'd pick it up except I've got a number of copies, so hopefully someone on the list needs the manual. http://ventura.craigslist.org/for/1917697039.html From rescue at hawkmountain.net Fri Sep 3 20:32:39 2010 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2010 21:32:39 -0400 Subject: I know this isn't particularly old yet... Message-ID: <4C81A1B7.7020907@hawkmountain.net> I'm looking for guide rails for the 5.25" drive bays for Chenbro cases (many use the same rails, mine is an SR20969 case.... I rescued this system from being recycled (2 dual core Opterons), however it is missing the front plastics and the guide rails.... You can find a p/n and buy the front plastic... but I can't find a part number for these rails (seems a shame to scrap a decent chassis over lack of device guide rails). Sorry this isn't a classic box... but I'm not having any luck finding these and was hoping maybe someone out there has something in there local scrap pile.... -- Curt From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Sep 3 21:08:16 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2010 03:08:16 +0100 Subject: DiscFerret update: PCB done! Message-ID: <4C81AA10.5030705@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, I've just (within the last few minutes) finished the "first cut" board layout for the DiscFerret. It's a 160x100mm Eurocard, with all the "inputs" (power and USB) on the back panel, and all the disc-drive interfacing stuff (power and I/O) on the front. Truth be told, it's not much different to the prototype schematic I posted to the list earlier this year... The 40-pin disc I/O connector carries a standard 17-line ("34-pin") Shugart disc interface with all lines wired, four high-speed 5V TTL "user I/O" lines, +5V (low current) and ground. The state of the DENSITY pin (pin 2) can be driven as an open-collector output, or used as an input (depending on the type of drive you're using). There's an external "power output" connector for the disc drive. This is a dual-row 4-pin AMP Micro Mate-n-Lok (P/N 3-794618-4, mating connector 794617-4 with 794610-1 contacts) which carries +12V, +5V and two grounds. Current-handling capacity is about 1.5A per channel, so plenty for most PC-style drives. There are no cop-outs here -- you can pull 1.5A from the 12V bus, and 1.5A from the 5V bus *at the same time* without any adverse effects. I wanted to use the standard Molex floppy drive power socket, but Molex only seem to make one PCB-mount variant, which is the "input" socket (which has a recessed body, but contains male pins -- go figure)... There are also three status LEDs -- Power, FPGA Status and PIC Status. The first is always on when the +3.3V regulator is running, the latter two are controlled by their respective devices. A plastic light-pipe redirects the light from these LEDs to the front panel. Simples! For the curious... Schematic: http://www.discferret.com/temp/discferret_sch.pdf PCB layout: Checkplot: http://www.discferret.com/temp/discferret_main_chk.pdf Top copper: http://www.discferret.com/temp/discferret_main_top.pdf Bot copper: http://www.discferret.com/temp/discferret_main_bot.pdf Top overlay: http://www.discferret.com/temp/discferret_main_tov.pdf EAGLE project files: http://www.discferret.com/temp/eagle/ (you'll need all the files in this directory) Next step is to do a full design review (i.e. print the board and schematic out REALLY BIG and go over them with a loupe), create a Quartus constraints file and test-synthesize the FPGA microcode. But first... it's 3AM and I'm tired. Sleep time! zzzzzz.... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From useddec at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 21:19:46 2010 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 21:19:46 -0500 Subject: MINC-11 (was Re: Collection reduction, part II the sequel) In-Reply-To: References: <4C8135D8.1090609@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: I was thinking of using one to monitor my solar PV and heating systems, but don't seem to have the time yet. i might look for canned software for a pc. I have eztras for most of the boards if anyone is interested. Paul On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 3:32 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 9/3/10, Tony Duell wrote: > >> I got it with my mini-MINC, essentially a PDT-150. But it came without > > > > This has always puzzled me. The PDT-150 is essentally a closed system, no > > expansion bus. And AFAIK it doens'timclude a ADC. So what makes a > > mini-MINC a modular _intstrument_ computer. How do you use it to > > meaurevoltages or whatever? > > Directly, there isn't an obvious way. I'm guessing they sold the > MiniMINC for writing analysis code more than for direct measurement, > though it could sample data from some sort of serial data logger. > > -etthan > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Sep 3 21:22:28 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 19:22:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DiscFerret update: PCB done! In-Reply-To: <4C81AA10.5030705@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C81AA10.5030705@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Sep 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > > I've just (within the last few minutes) finished the "first cut" board > layout for the DiscFerret. It's a 160x100mm Eurocard, with all the > "inputs" (power and USB) on the back panel, and all the disc-drive > interfacing stuff (power and I/O) on the front. Truth be told, it's not > much different to the prototype schematic I posted to the list earlier > this year... Yay! I'm glad you went ahead with this project. The Catweasel has been such a disappointment. Hopefully this will succeed where the Catweasel failed. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri Sep 3 21:25:07 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2010 19:25:07 -0700 Subject: S-100 Serial I/O options Message-ID: <4C81AE03.1020808@mail.msu.edu> Hi all -- I am one step closer to having a "useful" IMSAI 8080; thanks to a kind listmember I now have more spare 2147s than I know what to do with, and have used them to repopulate my 32K static RAM board. That brings me up to 48K of working RAM, which seems like more than enough to play with. Now I'd like to get the IMSAI talking to the world. Or at least a terminal. (Gotta start somewhere.) Were there ever any standards for serial I/O in the IMSAI/Altair/S-100 world (ports, interrupt settings, etc)? I have an IMSAI MIO board that I'd like to use. It has more configuration options than one can shake a stick at, and the (185 page) manual makes mention of several port address configurations, referring to them as "IMSAI SIO," "Processor Tech 3P+S," "Altair SIO." Did one of these emerge as a de facto standard at any point? My _eventual_ goal is to run CP/M at which point (hopefully) I assemble a CBIOS for whatever serial configuration I end up with and it's all taken care of; for now I'd be happy to get some paper-tape software to run. (Altair BASIC might be nice.) So I'm trying to work out a serial configuration that will work with a fair amount of archived software -- what would you recommend? Is the MIO board a decent serial board, or should I find something else? Thanks as always, Josh From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 3 22:15:13 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2010 20:15:13 -0700 Subject: DiscFerret update: PCB done! In-Reply-To: References: <4C81AA10.5030705@philpem.me.uk>, Message-ID: <4C815751.29136.2839B6D@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Sep 2010 at 19:22, David Griffith wrote: > Yay! I'm glad you went ahead with this project. The Catweasel has > been such a disappointment. Hopefully this will succeed where the > Catweasel failed. How so with the Catweasel? I've used the CW for years to both read and write some very weird formats. --Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Sep 3 22:56:43 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 23:56:43 -0400 Subject: DiscFerret update: PCB done! References: <4C81AA10.5030705@philpem.me.uk>, <4C815751.29136.2839B6D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 11:15 PM Subject: Re: DiscFerret update: PCB done! > On 3 Sep 2010 at 19:22, David Griffith wrote: > >> Yay! I'm glad you went ahead with this project. The Catweasel has >> been such a disappointment. Hopefully this will succeed where the >> Catweasel failed. > > How so with the Catweasel? I've used the CW for years to both read > and write some very weird formats. > > --Chuck Did you program the CW yourself? Most people complain about that card because it was sold for specific activities without the software to do it. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 3 23:27:58 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2010 21:27:58 -0700 Subject: DiscFerret update: PCB done! In-Reply-To: References: <4C81AA10.5030705@philpem.me.uk>, Message-ID: <4C81685E.13782.2C632DA@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Sep 2010 at 23:56, Teo Zenios wrote: > Did you program the CW yourself? Most people complain about that card > because it was sold for specific activities without the software to do > it. Yes--most of the things that I work with would require special programming anyway. I guess it all depends on your perspective. Before the CW was available, I used to prototype hardware to do the job, with all of the accompanying software. The CW was a godsend. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Sep 4 01:24:50 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 02:24:50 -0400 Subject: MINC-11 (was Re: Collection reduction, part II the sequel) In-Reply-To: References: <4C8135D8.1090609@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On 9/3/10, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 9/3/10, Tony Duell wrote: >>> I got it with my mini-MINC, essentially a PDT-150. But it came without >> >> This has always puzzled me. The PDT-150 is essentally a closed system, no >> expansion bus. And AFAIK it doens'timclude a ADC. So what makes a >> mini-MINC a modular _intstrument_ computer. How do you use it to >> meaurevoltages or whatever? > > Directly, there isn't an obvious way. I'm guessing they sold the > MiniMINC for writing analysis code more than for direct measurement, > though it could sample data from some sort of serial data logger. It's not period to the MiniMINC, but I have a stick-of-gum-sized multi-channel analog input device with a DE-9 on one end. ISTR it has four analog channels and it spits out readings over a 9600-N-1 connection. It was a freebie for answering a post card ad some years back. I'll pull it off the shelf and post the part number. Who knows? They might have some modern (less than 10-year-old) descendant product. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 4 02:41:39 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2010 03:41:39 -0400 Subject: MINC-11 (was Re: Collection reduction, part II the sequel) In-Reply-To: References: <4C8135D8.1090609@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4C81F833.9050801@neurotica.com> On 9/4/10 2:24 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > It's not period to the MiniMINC, but I have a stick-of-gum-sized > multi-channel analog input device with a DE-9 on one end. ISTR it has > four analog channels and it spits out readings over a 9600-N-1 > connection. It was a freebie for answering a post card ad some years > back. I got one of those too! It's got a PIC on it, if memory serves. I don't recall who sent those out. It annoyingly has double-sided tape on the back. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jws at jwsss.com Sat Sep 4 03:12:31 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2010 01:12:31 -0700 Subject: Ebay store stuff. Message-ID: <4C81FF6F.50202@jwsss.com> I was looking for other things in the IBM area, and stumbled across a store with a lot of cheap (by classic computing standards) stuff. this Adaptec SCSI to Qic-36 is $24 + 10 shipping, as an example 330221339704 If you have a lot of time, there a lot of parts such as some PS2 controller, and so forth if you look thru the entire store. I made it 4 pages (800 items) before I got tired tonight, but will look at more. The PS2 to QIC was $5 bucks for instance. If anyone has dealt with the vendor, post here if you like good or bad. I'm local to the place and may track them down and see if they will let the public noodle thru their pile. Jim From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Sep 4 08:46:27 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2010 14:46:27 +0100 Subject: DiscFerret update: PCB done! In-Reply-To: References: <4C81AA10.5030705@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C824DB3.5050400@philpem.me.uk> On 04/09/10 03:22, David Griffith wrote: > Yay! I'm glad you went ahead with this project. The Catweasel has been > such a disappointment. Hopefully this will succeed where the Catweasel > failed. Well, there's still a lot to do... - Get some prototypes made up. I have all the parts I need (with the possible exception of a few crystals I can buy with cash from the Farnell trade counter) but I need to get a PCB or two made up. Unfortunately I don't have the ?150 or so to pay for a prototype run, and half the vias are under ICs, so homebrew is out of the question :( - Port the FPGA HDL-code. Dead easy, just need to create a new pin constraints file, then rebuild. - Port the MCU firmware. Somewhat harder; the 18F85J50 has a newer, faster (=better!) parallel bus port. Catch is, this port isn't 100% backwards-compatible with the old 18F4550. So that means I need to rewrite fpga_writereg() and fpga_readreg() (aka POKE and PEEK). Will also need to put together a bootloader and an FPGA microcode loader. - Add write support. Basically, implement the Disc Write State Machine (a glorified microsequencer with a timer bolted on for good measure). - Documentation. DiscAPI and XDIFAPI are extensively commented, magdecode is lightly commented, ferret (the tool that reads and writes discs using the DF) isn't commented at all. - Code. DiscAPI and Magdecode are covered by my university's submissions policy (they were part of my final-year BSc project) -- I'm trying to get a copyright release, but the guy in charge of this is playing the Ostrich Game: "bury your head in the sand and hope it goes away". No doubt I'll end up rewriting a lot of code... ... But other than that, everything's peachy :) Thanks. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Sep 4 12:52:18 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 12:52:18 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest - follow us online Message-ID: I hear all kids these days are using the Twitters, so I went and set up an account for VCF Midwest. Those not able to make it can enjoy some "live tweeting" of the, er, "action" and attendees can get last-minute updates on setup times and other logistical issues. So if you're a Twitterererer, point your device our way: http://twitter.com/vcfmidwest Folks of the more old-school persuasion can also join us on IRC at #vcfmw on the freenode servers. Hope to see everyone there! -- jht vcfmw.org chiclassiccomp.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 4 13:15:12 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 19:15:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: MINC-11 (was Re: Collection reduction, part II the sequel) In-Reply-To: <4C814F9D.20909@verizon.net> from "allison" at Sep 3, 10 03:42:21 pm Message-ID: > PDT-150 is a bounded system, no internal options to speak of That's waht I thought. > (assuming full memory and serial option). As is the PDT130 > (TU58 mass storage) and PDT110 (no mass storage). > > It has multiple serial ports. A/D, D/A and other general IO can be done > via > serial communications. It's certainly possible, but it wasn't that common at the time. Did DEC make ADC and/or DAC modules with serial interfaces for it? Was there software to talk to such devices (other than send/receive a string to/from a seiral port)? I am wondering how this machine differed in its 'instrumentation' capabilites from any other machine with a couple of spare serial ports. How does it jsutify its name? > > I'm sure if it had a IEE488 bus port you would not have asked the question Indeed I wouldn't... > but, serial works and there are many instruments out there that have serial > as an option. I know this as I'd used a Keithly High resolution DMM with At that time HP were selling ADC, DAC, timing generator, relay, etc modules with an IEEE-488 interface. The ADC I am refering to is not a complete DVMor DMM unit, but a simple 11 bit ADC with much the same capabilities as the one that goes into a MINC-11 Were other companies selling similar units with RS232 interfaces? > a external 4 wire switch (also serial control) to build a 10 position > test station. -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Sep 4 15:11:25 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 16:11:25 -0400 Subject: MINC-11 (was Re: Collection reduction, part II the sequel) In-Reply-To: <4C81F833.9050801@neurotica.com> References: <4C8135D8.1090609@xs4all.nl> <4C81F833.9050801@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 9/4/10, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 9/4/10 2:24 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> It's not period to the MiniMINC, but I have a stick-of-gum-sized >> multi-channel analog input device with a DE-9 on one end.... > > I got one of those too! It's got a PIC on it, if memory serves. I > don't recall who sent those out. It annoyingly has double-sided tape on > the back. That's the one. I should be able to lay hands on it later today. -ethan From marvin at west.net Sat Sep 4 15:52:44 2010 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2010 13:52:44 -0700 Subject: Polymorphics 8813 on VCGM Message-ID: <4C82B19C.8040701@west.net> I just listed a Polymorphics 8813 on VCGM for a 2 day auction. I'll relist once if it doesn't sell, but RL will be getting in the way of dealing with it after that. http://marketplace.vintage-computer.com/auction_details.php?name=Polymorphic-Systems-8813-S100&auction_id=107858 From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Sep 4 16:00:11 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2010 17:00:11 -0400 Subject: MINC-11 (was Re: Collection reduction, part II the sequel) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C82B35B.3030609@verizon.net> On 09/04/2010 02:15 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> PDT-150 is a bounded system, no internal options to speak of >> > That's waht I thought. > > >> (assuming full memory and serial option). As is the PDT130 >> (TU58 mass storage) and PDT110 (no mass storage). >> >> It has multiple serial ports. A/D, D/A and other general IO can be done >> via >> serial communications. >> > It's certainly possible, but it wasn't that common at the time. Did DEC > make ADC and/or DAC modules with serial interfaces for it? Was there > software to talk to such devices (other than send/receive a string > to/from a seiral port)? > > No but it was possible to use M,K and other sries modules to do it yourself. As to not common, here (usa) it was, of course it wasn't cheap. > I am wondering how this machine differed in its 'instrumentation' > capabilites from any other machine with a couple of spare serial ports. > How does it jsutify its name? > > Packaged software. >> I'm sure if it had a IEE488 bus port you would not have asked the question >> > Indeed I wouldn't... > > >> but, serial works and there are many instruments out there that have serial >> as an option. I know this as I'd used a Keithly High resolution DMM with >> > At that time HP were selling ADC, DAC, timing generator, relay, etc > modules with an IEEE-488 interface. The ADC I am refering to is not a > complete DVMor DMM unit, but a simple 11 bit ADC with much the same > capabilities as the one that goes into a MINC-11 Were other companies > selling similar units with RS232 interfaces? > > Yes, National instruments, Keithly, Simpson, HP[with options], Tektronix and a multitude of smaller companies. It was not uncommon to use a complete 3-5000(US$) instrument just to test a specialized part because it was flexible or offered a very high order of resolution and accuracy (>5digits). Most ADC board were usually 10 to maybe 14 bits when the application needed 20 or more. You only have to remember that by time the PDT series hit the 8080/8085/z80/8048/8051/6502/6800 cpus were well entrenched in the instrumentation market and but needed a host with more power to do serious data reduction and PDP11 was a common choice (DG nova.. others) as the PC was not there yet (or taken seriously). Allison From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Sat Sep 4 16:15:08 2010 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 17:15:08 -0400 Subject: Exploring the world of minis and mainframes... Message-ID: I'm thinking of doing a little write-up/summary on the emulation/exploration of classic mainframe and minicomputer platforms and I was wondering what all is available to folks both in terms of host platforms (emulators and affordable real iron) and software. I know that DEC stuff (especially PDP-8, PDP-10, PDP-11 and VAX stuff) is widely available, as is a lot of early IBM stuff (360 and early 370 era) and even there's even a little bit available for things like the Interdata minis, the HP 2100 and (if you know the right people) the CDC 6x00/Cyber x70 systems. In addition, I've heard that a whole bunch of Data General software has been authorized for release to hobbyists, but work on that project is rather slow. Apart from what I've mentioned, is there anything else that's either available or "in the pipeline" or have I got it all? Mike From fjgjr1 at aol.com Sat Sep 4 16:24:56 2010 From: fjgjr1 at aol.com (fjgjr1 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2010 17:24:56 -0400 Subject: Check vc com - Re: I know this isn't particularly old yet... In-Reply-To: <4C81A1B7.7020907@hawkmountain.net> References: <4C81A1B7.7020907@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <8CD1A8EC1D0424B-3ECC-111D7@Webmail-d125.sysops.aol.com> Curt, Do a post on WWW.VINTAGE-COMPUTER.COM. They are the other big source for vintage computer items + much technical info. Good Luck ! Yes, shame to trash old stuff just because some little part is missing. I post under GADFRAN and I am in SE PA. You are associated with our local Hawk Mountain or another ? The big hawk watching season on now - went many times - just super ! Frank -----Original Message----- From: Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. To: cctech at classiccmp.org Sent: Fri, Sep 3, 2010 9:32 pm Subject: I know this isn't particularly old yet... I'm looking for guide rails for the 5.25" drive bays for Chenbro cases (many use the same rails, mine is an SR20969 case.... I rescued this system from being recycled (2 dual core Opterons), however it is missing the front plastics and the guide rails.... You can find a p/n and buy the front plastic... but I can't find a part number for these rails (seems a shame to scrap a decent chassis over lack of device guide rails). Sorry this isn't a classic box... but I'm not having any luck finding these and was hoping maybe someone out there has something in there local scrap pile.... -- Curt From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Sep 4 09:15:25 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 10:15:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Ebay store stuff. In-Reply-To: <4C81FF6F.50202@jwsss.com> References: <4C81FF6F.50202@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Sep 2010, Jim Stephens wrote: > I was looking for other things in the IBM area, and stumbled across a store > with a lot of cheap (by classic computing standards) stuff. > > this Adaptec SCSI to Qic-36 is $24 + 10 shipping, as an example 330221339704 > > If you have a lot of time, there a lot of parts such as some PS2 controller, > and so forth if you look thru the entire store. I made it 4 pages (800 > items) before I got tired tonight, but will look at more. > > The PS2 to QIC was $5 bucks for instance. > > If anyone has dealt with the vendor, post here if you like good or bad. Thanks for the pointer. It was like turning the clock back to a mid-90s hamfest - complete with reasonable prices. -- From jdbryan at acm.org Sat Sep 4 18:48:33 2010 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2010 19:48:33 -0400 Subject: Exploring the world of minis and mainframes... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Saturday, September 4, 2010 at 17:15, Michael Kerpan wrote: > In addition, I've heard that a whole bunch of Data General software has > been authorized for release to hobbyists, but work on that project is > rather slow. A similar situation exists for the HP 1000/21xx. See: http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/htdig/cctech/2007-November/087172.html -- Dave From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Sep 5 00:22:15 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 22:22:15 -0700 Subject: Polymorphics 8813 on VCGM In-Reply-To: <4C82B19C.8040701@west.net> References: <4C82B19C.8040701@west.net> Message-ID: > Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 13:52:44 -0700 > From: marvin at west.net > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Polymorphics 8813 on VCGM > > > I just listed a Polymorphics 8813 on VCGM for a 2 day auction. I'll > relist once if it doesn't sell, but RL will be getting in the way of > dealing with it after that. > > http://marketplace.vintage-computer.com/auction_details.php?name=Polymorphic-Systems-8813-S100&auction_id=107858 Hi Marvin If you can't find a system disk, I can give the winner one and also a program ( on DOS ) to transfer images to and from a PC. It does need one to have at least one booting system disk with the program they called 'ftp' ( not the same ftp we know today ). Dwight From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Sun Sep 5 00:59:26 2010 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 06:59:26 +0100 Subject: Exploring the world of minis and mainframes... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6CBA0AE5CB7C4A6A80CF19718A49322A@xp32vm> >>>> I'm thinking of doing a little write-up/summary on the emulation/exploration of classic mainframe and minicomputer platforms .... Apart from what I've mentioned, is there anything else that's either available or "in the pipeline" or have I got it all? <<<< There are at least two emulations of the ICL 1900 series (the original George 3 exec-level one by Dave Holdsworth and a newer "bare-metal"-level one; the latter seems only to be available by request, the former is hard to find - the easiest way is to look for the packaged version used to run Algol68R). There may well be an ICL 2960 emulator under way from the group who are restoring such a machine at Bletchley Park. I'm astonished that there doesn't seem to be a Multics emulator (OK, the hardware is the epitome of CISC, but it is one of the true classics). There are also emulators for some of the first and second generation machines (Manchester "Baby" for example, but, again regrettably, apparently not the Ferranti Atlas) Andy From rachael at telefisk.org Sun Sep 5 08:07:18 2010 From: rachael at telefisk.org (rachael at telefisk.org) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 15:07:18 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Ebay store stuff. In-Reply-To: <4C81FF6F.50202@jwsss.com> References: <4C81FF6F.50202@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Sep 2010, Jim Stephens wrote: > I was looking for other things in the IBM area, and stumbled across a store > with a lot of cheap (by classic computing standards) stuff. > > this Adaptec SCSI to Qic-36 is $24 + 10 shipping, as an example 330221339704 > > If you have a lot of time, there a lot of parts such as some PS2 controller, > and so forth if you look thru the entire store. I made it 4 pages (800 > items) before I got tired tonight, but will look at more. > > The PS2 to QIC was $5 bucks for instance. > > If anyone has dealt with the vendor, post here if you like good or bad. > > I'm local to the place and may track them down and see if they will let the > public noodle thru their pile. > Jim > I have brought stuff from him a few times, quick delivery and good packing, and not fuzzy about having to send it to me here in Denmark. Brough some mfm/rll to scsi adaptors and mfm 8bit isa controllers from him. Regards -- Jacob Dahl Pind | telefisk.org | fidonet 2:230/38.8 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 5 08:52:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 14:52:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT : hpcc mini-conference next saturday Message-ID: Next Saturday (11th September 2010) there is an HPCC mini-conference in London. This is not a classic computing event really (which is why it's OT), but it is somewhat traditional for one of the talks to cover a classic HP computer or calculator, and anyway, there will be older machines to look at... Non-members of HPCC are welcome to attend, but please let a member of the committee (e.g. me) know if you are likely to come. More details are on the hpcc web site, http://www.hpcc.org/ -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Sep 5 11:01:07 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2010 09:01:07 -0700 Subject: Exploring the world of minis and mainframes... In-Reply-To: <6CBA0AE5CB7C4A6A80CF19718A49322A@xp32vm> References: <6CBA0AE5CB7C4A6A80CF19718A49322A@xp32vm> Message-ID: <4C83BEC3.6070405@bitsavers.org> On 9/4/10 10:59 PM, Andy Holt wrote: > I'm astonished that there doesn't seem to be a Multics emulator (OK, the > hardware is the epitome of CISC, but it is one of the true classics). There isn't quite enough information on the I/O system. A few people have gotten as far as trying to get the main CPU to boot. > There are also emulators for some of the first and second generation > machines (Manchester "Baby" for example, but, again regrettably, apparently > not the Ferranti Atlas) > Does any of the code survive for Atlas? I was in communication with the Cambridge folks, and they were saddened to discover their only known copies of the software for Titan were discarded. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Sep 5 11:22:21 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2010 09:22:21 -0700 Subject: Exploring the world of minis and mainframes... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C83C3BD.9020206@bitsavers.org> On 9/4/10 2:15 PM, Michael Kerpan wrote: > a lot of early IBM stuff (360 and early 370 > era) 360 is not early. Actually, the pre unbundling 360 OS releases appear to be lost. Most of the work on Hercules is really in the 370 era. There has been some work on 7090 and earlier systems. IBSYS and CTSS are reported to be running. There are two people working on 50's IBM simulators, one who is trying to integrated his changes into SIMH, and another who is working on a lot of the other systems, including Stretch. I had been providing him listings of the Stretch diagnostic listings, but haven't heard of any progress in a couple of years. There are several early system simulators hiding in MESS, including the PDP-1, TX-0, as well as the TI 990-10 SIMH is where most of the work on minis has been occurring, with the exception of the PDP-8, where there are lots of independent projects. SIMH could use a lot more help in the mini and mainframe area. There are several simulators that Bob started (SDS 940 and Sigma) that have stalled because he doesn't have time to work on them. Rob Kolstad was working on a G-15 simulator in 2008 http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/g-15.html Brad Parker has several lisp machine simulators running Leif Harcke wrote a Univac 1103A simulator An MIT Whirlwind simulator should be possible. CHM has several hundred paper tapes from the system and pretty complete documentation. Same is true for the Autonetics Recomp-II Someone started a simulator for the Oregon Open-Shop timesharing system but I haven't heard about any progress in about 10 years. Adrian Wise wrote a Honeywell H-516 simulator http://www.series16.adrianwise.co.uk/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 5 11:34:27 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 17:34:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: MINC-11 (was Re: Collection reduction, part II the sequel) In-Reply-To: <4C82B35B.3030609@verizon.net> from "allison" at Sep 4, 10 05:00:11 pm Message-ID: > >> It has multiple serial ports. A/D, D/A and other general IO can be done > >> via > >> serial communications. > >> > > It's certainly possible, but it wasn't that common at the time. Did DEC > > make ADC and/or DAC modules with serial interfaces for it? Was there > > software to talk to such devices (other than send/receive a string > > to/from a seiral port)? > > > > > > No but it was possible to use M,K and other sries modules to do it yourself. Sure, but that doesn't seem like much liess work than designing the whole data logger from scratch. > > As to not common, here (usa) it was, of course it wasn't cheap. I will admit the only ADC/DAC modules I've worked with (as opposed to complete instruments that have computer interface ports) are the HP ones which of course have HPIB/IEEE488 interfaces. Was there an an RS232 equivalent of, say, the HP59313 ADC? > > How does it jsutify its name? > > > > > Packaged software. OK. > > At that time HP were selling ADC, DAC, timing generator, relay, etc > > modules with an IEEE-488 interface. The ADC I am refering to is not a > > complete DVMor DMM unit, but a simple 11 bit ADC with much the same > > capabilities as the one that goes into a MINC-11 Were other companies > > selling similar units with RS232 interfaces? > > > > > > Yes, National instruments, Keithly, Simpson, HP[with options], > Tektronix and a multitude of smaller companies. It was not For measuirng instruments, sure. But not for building-block modules/. > uncommon to use a complete 3-5000(US$) instrument > just to test a specialized part because it was flexible or > offered a very high order of resolution and accuracy > (>5digits). Most ADC board were usually 10 to maybe > 14 bits when the application needed 20 or more. That depends -- a lot -- on the application. I've done things where I'm glad of the (reliable) 5 digits from an HP DMM. I've done things where 6 bits wre enough/ > > You only have to remember that by time the PDT series hit > the 8080/8085/z80/8048/8051/6502/6800 cpus were well > entrenched in the instrumentation market and but needed Personally I wouldn't consider (or have considered at that time) a machine as an instrumetnion controller if there wasn't an IEEE-488 port eiterh built-in or as an option. > a host with more power to do serious data reduction and HP9845? HP9000/200 machines were starting to appear around then too. -tony From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 5 12:08:13 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 10:08:13 -0700 Subject: Exploring the world of minis and mainframes... In-Reply-To: <4C83BEC3.6070405@bitsavers.org> References: <6CBA0AE5CB7C4A6A80CF19718A49322A@xp32vm> <4C83BEC3.6070405@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: At 9:01 AM -0700 9/5/10, Al Kossow wrote: >On 9/4/10 10:59 PM, Andy Holt wrote: > >>I'm astonished that there doesn't seem to be a Multics emulator (OK, the >>hardware is the epitome of CISC, but it is one of the true classics). > >There isn't quite enough information on the I/O system. A few people >have gotten >as far as trying to get the main CPU to boot. While I never worked on a Multics system, I spent a few years working on a couple DPS-8 Mainframes running GCOS-8. The main CPU is just a tiny part of the system. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 13:07:54 2010 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 14:07:54 -0400 Subject: Exploring the world of minis and mainframes... In-Reply-To: References: <6CBA0AE5CB7C4A6A80CF19718A49322A@xp32vm> <4C83BEC3.6070405@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Thanks for all the hints and tips so far. It seems like there's at least a bit more stuff than I had heard of before. Mike From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Sep 5 14:21:35 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2010 15:21:35 -0400 Subject: MINC-11 (was Re: Collection reduction, part II the sequel) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C83EDBF.4030906@verizon.net> On 09/05/2010 12:34 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> It has multiple serial ports. A/D, D/A and other general IO can be done >>>> via >>>> serial communications. >>>> >>>> >>> It's certainly possible, but it wasn't that common at the time. Did DEC >>> make ADC and/or DAC modules with serial interfaces for it? Was there >>> software to talk to such devices (other than send/receive a string >>> to/from a seiral port)? >>> >>> >>> >> No but it was possible to use M,K and other sries modules to do it yourself. >> > Sure, but that doesn't seem like much liess work than designing the whole > data logger from scratch. > > >> As to not common, here (usa) it was, of course it wasn't cheap. >> > I will admit the only ADC/DAC modules I've worked with (as opposed to > complete instruments that have computer interface ports) are the HP ones > which of course have HPIB/IEEE488 interfaces. Was there an an RS232 > equivalent of, say, the HP59313 ADC? > > >>> How does it jsutify its name? >>> >>> >>> >> Packaged software. >> > OK. > > >>> At that time HP were selling ADC, DAC, timing generator, relay, etc >>> modules with an IEEE-488 interface. The ADC I am refering to is not a >>> complete DVMor DMM unit, but a simple 11 bit ADC with much the same >>> capabilities as the one that goes into a MINC-11 Were other companies >>> selling similar units with RS232 interfaces? >>> >>> >>> >> Yes, National instruments, Keithly, Simpson, HP[with options], >> Tektronix and a multitude of smaller companies. It was not >> > For measuirng instruments, sure. But not for building-block modules/. > > >> uncommon to use a complete 3-5000(US$) instrument >> just to test a specialized part because it was flexible or >> offered a very high order of resolution and accuracy >> (>5digits). Most ADC board were usually 10 to maybe >> 14 bits when the application needed 20 or more. >> > That depends -- a lot -- on the application. I've done things where I'm > glad of the (reliable) 5 digits from an HP DMM. I've done things where 6 > bits wre enough/ > > > >> You only have to remember that by time the PDT series hit >> the 8080/8085/z80/8048/8051/6502/6800 cpus were well >> entrenched in the instrumentation market and but needed >> > Personally I wouldn't consider (or have considered at that time) a > machine as an instrumetnion controller if there wasn't an IEEE-488 port > eiterh built-in or as an option. > > >> a host with more power to do serious data reduction and >> > HP9845? HP9000/200 machines were starting to appear around then too. > > -tony > > I'll cut to the chase, in the window of 1980 there were not a lot of IEEE488 as it was harder to do as there were barely chip level solutions emerging. But the gear that did 488 were often also available as serial 232 You could get building block systems that would do a few or many bits of IO and low end analog too. In the industries I was around then you often needed high accuracy or enough IO to make switches and valves happen. I would continue to see that through the early 90s when PLCs and PCs were starting to enter the picture. The most interesting building block system was a plant that packed Ice tea in aseptic boxes in the mid 90s. The host was a S100 Cromemco!) crate with 6 serial lines no parallel save for the MX80 printer. I might add nice color graphics too. Why serial, the wires can be far longer in exchange for speed (beyond 15M) and much cheaper. Speed was rarely an issue. Ever see a 15M IEEE488 cable or buy one? The only place outside of DEC I'd seen traditional MINCs were for lab rat experiments in the academic world or the occasional private collection. Even DEC would build register transfer machines out of modules to do tasks internally (factory) and control it with a PDP-8 or larger machine. Allison From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 14:31:16 2010 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 21:31:16 +0200 Subject: Exploring the world of minis and mainframes... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi There is a CADR Lisp Machine simulator out there too (not a mini or mainframe though). St?phane On Sat, Sep 4, 2010 at 23:15, Michael Kerpan wrote: > I'm thinking of doing a little write-up/summary on the > emulation/exploration of classic mainframe and minicomputer platforms > and I was wondering what all is available to folks both in terms of > host platforms (emulators and affordable real iron) and software. I > know that DEC stuff (especially PDP-8, PDP-10, PDP-11 and VAX stuff) > is widely available, as is a lot of early IBM stuff (360 and early 370 > era) and even there's even a little bit available for things like the > Interdata minis, the HP 2100 and (if you know the right people) the > CDC 6x00/Cyber x70 systems. In addition, I've heard that a whole bunch > of Data General software has been authorized for release to hobbyists, > but work on that project is rather slow. Apart from what I've > mentioned, is there anything else that's either available or "in the > pipeline" or have I got it all? > > Mike > -- Stephane http://updatedoften.blogspot.com From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Sep 5 14:55:14 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2010 12:55:14 -0700 Subject: Exploring the world of minis and mainframes... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C83F5A2.6050005@mail.msu.edu> Also not sure if this qualifies as a Minicomputer or something else; but here's a shameless plug for my own PERQ emulator: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/projects/PERQemu/index.html (some day I *will* finish this...) - Josh On 9/5/2010 12:31 PM, St?phane Tsacas wrote: > Hi > There is a CADR Lisp Machine simulator out there too (not a mini or > mainframe though). > St?phane > > > On Sat, Sep 4, 2010 at 23:15, Michael Kerpanwrote: > >> I'm thinking of doing a little write-up/summary on the >> emulation/exploration of classic mainframe and minicomputer platforms >> and I was wondering what all is available to folks both in terms of >> host platforms (emulators and affordable real iron) and software. I >> know that DEC stuff (especially PDP-8, PDP-10, PDP-11 and VAX stuff) >> is widely available, as is a lot of early IBM stuff (360 and early 370 >> era) and even there's even a little bit available for things like the >> Interdata minis, the HP 2100 and (if you know the right people) the >> CDC 6x00/Cyber x70 systems. In addition, I've heard that a whole bunch >> of Data General software has been authorized for release to hobbyists, >> but work on that project is rather slow. Apart from what I've >> mentioned, is there anything else that's either available or "in the >> pipeline" or have I got it all? >> >> Mike >> > > From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 15:40:15 2010 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 22:40:15 +0200 Subject: PDP 11/34 on Craigslist Message-ID: PDP-11/34 - $100 (Kitsap) ------------------------------ Date: 2010-09-04, 10:42AM PDT Reply to: sale-szusu-1936500683 at craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads? ] ------------------------------ This is a piece of history. Extrended memory, Floating Point card, Vt50 terminal, (2) RLO2's, (1) RLO1, (2) 500 Mb Eagles, including platters, manuals. If you know what this is, then you remember washing machine sized computing in the labs. Load with UCC APT NC programming software. Call for details. Merle, at 360-[see ad]. It was running when I last used it in 1991. This is not a laptop or a desktop! LOL. - Location: Kitsap - it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests PostingID: 1936500683 http://seattle.craigslist.org/kit/sys/1936500683.html -- Stephane http://updatedoften.blogspot.com From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 16:31:35 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2010 16:31:35 -0500 Subject: DiscFerret update: PCB done! In-Reply-To: <4C81685E.13782.2C632DA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C81AA10.5030705@philpem.me.uk>, <4C81685E.13782.2C632DA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C840C37.9080306@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 3 Sep 2010 at 23:56, Teo Zenios wrote: > > >> Did you program the CW yourself? Most people complain about that card >> because it was sold for specific activities without the software to do >> it. > > Yes--most of the things that I work with would require special > programming anyway. Maybe they were a little misleading though if they gave the impression that the software to do task x already existed (or if it did exist - but only in the sense that someone somewhere had written it, but had no plans to release it for everyone else to use). That would be rather sly marketing, I think. Of course saying something like "these are the features, you *could* do x, y and z with it" might be different. It's all in the wording... > I guess it all depends on your perspective. Before the CW was > available, I used to prototype hardware to do the job, with all of > the accompanying software. The CW was a godsend. Things I encountered: 1) difficulty in finding data about the product, what products were even available (vs. considered obsolete - lots of mention of different revisions, but difficult to see what could actually be bought), and actually purchasing one (I seem to recall the european website gave the impression of vaporware; perhaps the US one was better?) 2) I want to be able to support it myself; if the people making it were to vanish and it broke, I don't want to lose all the time I'd invested in writing code to use it, or find myself scrabbling around for a replacement - I at least want schematics etc. so I can have a chance at keeping the thing running (and probably a spare board on the shelf!). 3) It was hard to see what there was in the way of "community" - again I think that was more a website failing than anything else, but being able to bounce ideas and experiences around with other folk who have the boards would be useful, and it was difficult to see how to get in touch with them. I've been very tempted to get one at times, but only because (like you say) the alternative is really to build your own custom stuff - but maybe Phil's efforts will solve some of the above issues. cheers Jules From tosteve at yahoo.com Sun Sep 5 18:34:00 2010 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 16:34:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Free: Old manuals- Altos, CP/M, PDP-11, Northstar Message-ID: <966930.41143.qm@web110604.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> More than 50 pounds total - take one, some, or all. http://www.popbottlecaps.com/temp/books.html Located in southern California- 92656. From tosteve at yahoo.com Sun Sep 5 18:34:01 2010 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 16:34:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Free: Old manuals- Altos, CP/M, PDP-11, Northstar Message-ID: <2965.38743.qm@web110611.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> More than 50 pounds total - take one, some, or all. http://www.popbottlecaps.com/temp/books.html Located in southern California- 92656. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Sep 5 21:06:09 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 19:06:09 -0700 Subject: NEC D75008 MCU Message-ID: I just ran across an NEC D75008 microcontroller in a small photo copier ca. 1990. According to a search it is a 4-bit microcontroller. Idle curiousity, but does anybody know if this has any inheritance from or relation to better-known microcontrollers such as the TMS1000, that is, is it NEC's version of something better known?, or is it NEC's own architecture? From jws at jwsss.com Sun Sep 5 12:05:09 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2010 10:05:09 -0700 Subject: Exploring the world of minis and mainframes... In-Reply-To: <4C83C3BD.9020206@bitsavers.org> References: <4C83C3BD.9020206@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4C83CDC5.2090203@jwsss.com> I have a Microdata 1600 emulator, and a friend's Microdata 32/s emulator. 1600 emulator runs firmware, the 32/s emulator runs a software emulation which ran on the Microdata 3200, not the general machine. Software and firmware remain to be cleard to be shared. If any is saved it would be interesting to hear from anyone as well as where they got their copies. Jim Stephens On 9/5/2010 9:22 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 9/4/10 2:15 PM, Michael Kerpan wrote: >> a lot of early IBM stuff (360 and early 370 >> era) > > 360 is not early. Actually, the pre unbundling 360 > OS releases appear to be lost. Most of the work on > Hercules is really in the 370 era. > > There has been some work on 7090 and earlier systems. > IBSYS and CTSS are reported to be running. There are > two people working on 50's IBM simulators, one who is > trying to integrated his changes into SIMH, and another > who is working on a lot of the other systems, including > Stretch. I had been providing him listings of the Stretch > diagnostic listings, but haven't heard of any progress in > a couple of years. > > There are several early system simulators hiding in > MESS, including the PDP-1, TX-0, as well as the TI 990-10 > > SIMH is where most of the work on minis has been occurring, > with the exception of the PDP-8, where there are lots of > independent projects. > > SIMH could use a lot more help in the mini and mainframe area. > There are several simulators that Bob started (SDS 940 and Sigma) > that have stalled because he doesn't have time to work on them. > > Rob Kolstad was working on a G-15 simulator in 2008 > http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/g-15.html > > Brad Parker has several lisp machine simulators running > > Leif Harcke wrote a Univac 1103A simulator > > An MIT Whirlwind simulator should be possible. CHM has several hundred > paper tapes from the system and pretty complete documentation. Same is > true for the Autonetics Recomp-II > > Someone started a simulator for the Oregon Open-Shop timesharing system > but I haven't heard about any progress in about 10 years. > > Adrian Wise wrote a Honeywell H-516 simulator > http://www.series16.adrianwise.co.uk/ > > > > > From jws at jwsss.com Sun Sep 5 12:31:30 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2010 10:31:30 -0700 Subject: Exploring the world of minis and mainframes... In-Reply-To: References: <6CBA0AE5CB7C4A6A80CF19718A49322A@xp32vm> <4C83BEC3.6070405@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4C83D3F2.5050108@jwsss.com> On 9/5/2010 10:08 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 9:01 AM -0700 9/5/10, Al Kossow wrote: >> On 9/4/10 10:59 PM, Andy Holt wrote: >> >>> I'm astonished that there doesn't seem to be a Multics emulator (OK, >>> the >>> hardware is the epitome of CISC, but it is one of the true classics). >> >> There isn't quite enough information on the I/O system. A few people >> have gotten >> as far as trying to get the main CPU to boot. > > While I never worked on a Multics system, I spent a few years working > on a couple DPS-8 Mainframes running GCOS-8. The main CPU is just a > tiny part of the system. > > Zane I'd be interested in seeing what has been done so far. I would think that the big bits would be the IOM, DN-355 (comms) and disk. The system could be configured with drum for swapping, but that was dropped from the design later. I believe that the console on our system was on a different bit of hardware as well, so there might be some way to get booted up w/o the Datanet running. The nice thing about the Datanet system was that it was pretty much a 516 (If memory serves me) and there is already an emulation of that running. I remember looking at the software and firmware for that subsystem and seeing it looked like the Honeywell mini we had where had left school. Jim From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Sun Sep 5 14:17:18 2010 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 20:17:18 +0100 Subject: Exploring the world of minis and mainframes... In-Reply-To: <4C83BEC3.6070405@bitsavers.org> References: <6CBA0AE5CB7C4A6A80CF19718A49322A@xp32vm> <4C83BEC3.6070405@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <7C1FFBFD4C594352A929249C9201EBA9@xp32vm> >>>> On 9/4/10 10:59 PM, Andy Holt wrote: > I'm astonished that there doesn't seem to be a Multics emulator (OK, the > hardware is the epitome of CISC, but it is one of the true classics). There isn't quite enough information on the I/O system. A few people have gotten as far as trying to get the main CPU to boot. <<<< Odd, I'd have thought that the IOM would have been the one part of a Multics systems that was essentially unchanged from a G(e)COS one - the SCM(?)s (the boxes that contain memory and connect to processors and IOMs) would presumably need to know a bit about the memory management and the Datanet probably had entirely different code) >>>> > There are also emulators for some of the first and second generation > machines (Manchester "Baby" for example, but, again regrettably, apparently > not the Ferranti Atlas) > Does any of the code survive for Atlas? I was in communication with the Cambridge folks, and they were saddened to discover their only known copies of the software for Titan were discarded. <<<< I really don't know - after all there were only 6 Atlases in total: Manchester, London, Chiltern, Cambridge (x2), and Aldermaston unless GCHQ also had one or more. But it would be fun if a CPL compiler still existed. (CPL cut down led to BCPL led to B, extended led to C) Andy From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Sun Sep 5 14:30:17 2010 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 20:30:17 +0100 Subject: Exploring the world of minis and mainframes... In-Reply-To: References: <6CBA0AE5CB7C4A6A80CF19718A49322A@xp32vm><4C83BEC3.6070405@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <2158F7EF06484A368A5380B3C93CA1E3@xp32vm> >>>> While I never worked on a Multics system, I spent a few years working on a couple DPS-8 Mainframes running GCOS-8. The main CPU is just a tiny part of the system. <<<< Tell me about it :-) Very impressive engineers "blinkenlites" inside the doors of each of the system cabinets. Even more fun learning how to start the system up than the preceding 1905E. For the seven years that our University possessed a dual Level 66/60 system I was in effective charge of our systems team. I was the only one who wrote anything in GMAP (three key OS modules had to be in that assembler and were site specific) all our other systems programming was dome in B (and perhaps some Fortran which isn't really that different :-) The biggest pain was the dn355(?) communications processor, but I had delegated that to one of my senior programmers (as he had been responsible for the Digico Micro-16 that had performed the same function on the ICL 1900 system that preceded the Honeywell. Unfortunately, I have very little documentation remaining from the L66 - possibly just the pocketbook (the IBM green card hides in shame in comparison!) Andy From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Sep 6 07:56:36 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 08:56:36 -0400 Subject: NEC D75008 MCU In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C84E504.9090504@verizon.net> On 09/05/2010 10:06 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I just ran across an NEC D75008 microcontroller in a small photo > copier ca. 1990. According to a search it is a 4-bit microcontroller. > > Idle curiousity, but does anybody know if this has any inheritance > from or relation to better-known microcontrollers such as the TMS1000, > that is, is it NEC's version of something better known?, or is it > NEC's own architecture? > > No, it is NEC unique. For 4 bitters that is usually the case. it is a much more expanded design closer to modern PICs with many variants having LCD driver on board. Allison From jws at jwsss.com Mon Sep 6 04:02:37 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 02:02:37 -0700 Subject: UPDATE (Back on thread topic)Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA In-Reply-To: <262988.64281.qm@web110613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <262988.64281.qm@web110613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C84AE2D.4090100@jwsss.com> I visited today, and found a few items. The dual floppy enclosure is to an incircuit emulator system, discussed here before, the EZPro. I have one, but the floppy system won't add much to it. I'd be glad if Steve isn't able to help ship the enclosure, or the drives & PS. Kaypro II is still available, missing drives. There is an ATI all in wonder HD still there (new, but about all left of computer stuff). The McIntosh is a preamp, and marked $500, and people are helping to be sure she isn't screwed over by lowball buyers. Most of the ham equipment went yesterday to a friend who had contacted here thru a local group of Hams, etc. Still left (way way off topic) is a Cessna 172. Fellow was not only into electronics, but had a full machine shop (sold) care overhaul setup, and the electronics shop. There is a full size SummaGraphics wall or board type digitizer, about 4' x 8' on a stand. I can throw in an HP Plotter if anyone wants to get a full large size graphics system. It is set up with RS232 input / output, and it would be a real shame to have it scrapped. Sadly someone earlier in the thinning process undervalued it and a full CAD system was lost. They took it in trade from a client who owed money to another of their businesses. This lady has done a fantastic job in the wake of what most of our families will fail, the death of a big collector. I really want to help her out, so anything you are interested in, let myself, or Steve know if we can help. Also interesting to see such an end to a collection, rather than it foolishly going to the landfill. I'd say about 2000 sq ft has been cleared by her, and there are about 4 ea 300 sq ft storage units, and the aircraft left. Oh, and you ask... what did I find. Everyone overlooked the Selectric on the table, which wasn't just a Selectric. It's a console, with a winchester (or some sort of) connector on the bottom rear. I rescued it for hopefully someone's ancient machine to be restored with the correct hard copy console, and after I contact possible friends about the thing may be back here. I've been looking for one for a long time, just because I know they are very rare (looking since about 1980 or so) more than anything else. Jim On 9/1/2010 1:18 AM, steven stengel wrote: > Slightly off-topic, but still interests many of you. > Dozens of vintage (mediocre condition) electronic and HAM radio equipment for > sale in Costa Mesa, CA. > Storage unit needs to be cleaned out! None of it is mine, I'm just assisting. > There is a Kaypro II, Kaypro 4, a floppy drive assembly or two. No S-100 > systems. > > The owner is very unlikely to ship anything, but I can if required. > > See pics at this link: > http://popbottlecaps.com/temp/electronics.html > > I took the Altos 586, with 2 feet of manuals, and some software. > > > > > From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 07:53:11 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 08:53:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DiscFerret update: PCB done! In-Reply-To: <4C840C37.9080306@gmail.com> References: <4C81AA10.5030705@philpem.me.uk>, <4C81685E.13782.2C632DA@cclist.sydex.com> <4C840C37.9080306@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Sep 2010, Jules Richardson wrote: > Things I encountered: > > 1) difficulty in finding data about the product, what products were even > available (vs. considered obsolete - lots of mention of different revisions, > but difficult to see what could actually be bought), and actually purchasing > one (I seem to recall the european website gave the impression of vaporware; > perhaps the US one was better?) Unfortunately, Jens' website is a bit scattered. There are a few different ways to end up at information pages for the CW and they all seem to take you through slightly different information. > 2) I want to be able to support it myself; if the people making it were to > vanish and it broke, I don't want to lose all the time I'd invested in > writing code to use it, or find myself scrabbling around for a replacement - > I at least want schematics etc. so I can have a chance at keeping the thing > running (and probably a spare board on the shelf!). There actually is a long OEM coding document available. I found it almost incomprehensible, however. Took about four read-throughs combined with some study of third-party code before anything made sense. It suffers from the same thing that a lot of Linux documentation does: No context. There's an assumption that the reader (somehow) knows everything about the function of the unit and simply needs a reminder of specific port addresses or bit combinations. One example: There is simply no discussion of the basic operational paradigm of the unit! Took until the third reading until I realized that the unit operates by storing timer values between detected transitions. There's lots of discussion that dances a full circle around that explanation (and assumes you know it), but it is literally _never_ stated anywhere in those terms. > 3) It was hard to see what there was in the way of "community" - again I > think that was more a website failing than anything else, but being able to > bounce ideas and experiences around with other folk who have the boards would > be useful, and it was difficult to see how to get in touch with them. In fairness, there are are a few folks out there with CW coding experience and I found them friendly and very quick with help and pointers. The Yahoo group has almost no activity, but folks do respond to postings there. > I've been very tempted to get one at times, but only because (like you say) > the alternative is really to build your own custom stuff - but maybe Phil's > efforts will solve some of the above issues. The heart of the CW is an FPGA (I think). Although the bitstream is provided, you likely will not find the source code nor schematics. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 07:57:46 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 08:57:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: UPDATE (Back on thread topic)Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA In-Reply-To: <4C84AE2D.4090100@jwsss.com> References: <262988.64281.qm@web110613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4C84AE2D.4090100@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Sep 2010, jim s wrote: > I visited today, and found a few items. What, if anything, became of the IMI 8" hard disk? It's in the 'shelf-5.jpg' shot. -- From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 10:06:32 2010 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 11:06:32 -0400 Subject: Exploring the world of minis and mainframes... In-Reply-To: <2158F7EF06484A368A5380B3C93CA1E3@xp32vm> References: <6CBA0AE5CB7C4A6A80CF19718A49322A@xp32vm> <4C83BEC3.6070405@bitsavers.org> <2158F7EF06484A368A5380B3C93CA1E3@xp32vm> Message-ID: I wonder if Bull (or whoever owns the rights to this stuff these days) might be willing to make some internal documentation on the DPS-8 available to the community. Given that they signed off on and approved MIT's open source release of Multics, maybe they would be willing to provide a documentation dump to help get Multics running again as well. Mike From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 6 12:25:48 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 10:25:48 -0700 Subject: DiscFerret update: PCB done! In-Reply-To: References: <4C81AA10.5030705@philpem.me.uk>, <4C840C37.9080306@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <4C84C1AC.17552.4D4148@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Sep 2010 at 8:53, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Unfortunately, Jens' website is a bit scattered. There are a few > different ways to end up at information pages for the CW and they all > seem to take you through slightly different information. You have to understand Jens' motives for the CW. In a word, Amiga support. But for the very latest MK IV, all versions have had some sort of support for Amiga peripherals--and at least one model could be "flipped" (turned upside-down) and inserted into an Amiga. So it's understandable that his interest outside of Amiga support is minimal. The documentation (mostly the INSIDE.TXT document) is sparse and has a feeling of "if you lived here you would know what I'm talking about". But it's quite useful and I've seen far worse. Much of what Jens does could now be handled with most modern medium- scale microcontrollers. I think that's what most of the other products, such as the Deviceside do. All you need is a PWM-style timer with a "capture" mode and the ability to address about 128K of DRAM and a uC that runs at a sufficient speed to reduce aliasing effects. There's really no magic involved at all. You can get an AVR Mega (with external addressing capability) to produce acceptable results; an ARM-type uC would also be a good choice and most DSP chips would probably do the job. Given the rather pedestrian nature of the job and the fast cheap uCs available today, I doubt that a FPGA makes a lot of cost-effective sense in the case of floppy work. And of course, one has to write the software to interpret the results. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 6 12:46:32 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 18:46:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: MINC-11 (was Re: Collection reduction, part II the sequel) In-Reply-To: <4C83EDBF.4030906@verizon.net> from "allison" at Sep 5, 10 03:21:35 pm Message-ID: > I'll cut to the chase, in the window of 1980 there were not a lot of > IEEE488 as it was harder to do as there were barely chip level Maybe not a lot of manufacturers, but HP certainly made enough such instruemtns. And actually, around 1900 there were several smaller companies over here making GPIB building-blocks which were ofent controlled by PETs. > solutions emerging. You can trivially make a GPIB talker or listener in a few TTL chips. HP almost always did it that way in their earlier dervices (for all the had developned a single-chip HPIB interface) > > But the gear that did 488 were often also available as serial 232 I can think of a lto of counterexamples... > Why serial, the wires can be far longer in exchange for speed > (beyond 15M) and much cheaper. Speed was rarely an issue. > Ever see a 15M IEEE488 cable or buy one? No, but there were IEEE-488 'extenders' which could use a twisted pair connection or a pair of dial-up modems avaialble from virtually the start. Take a look at the hP59403, for example. I've run 10 or more IEEE-488 building blocks off a single interface. I wonder just how many computers could take that many serial ports. > > The only place outside of DEC I'd seen traditional MINCs were > for lab rat experiments in the academic world or the occasional As I mentioned earlier, I have 3 MINCs. The 2 hard-disk ones (twin RL01s) came from the phgsics departemnt of a university. The floppy-drive MINC-23 came from the research labs of a utility company. I have no real idea what any were used for, I must admit I've seen many more HP-bnsed data acquisition systems, 9825s, 9836s, 9816s, etc. -tony From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Sep 6 13:34:38 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 11:34:38 -0700 Subject: NEC D75008 MCU In-Reply-To: <4C84E504.9090504@verizon.net> References: <4C84E504.9090504@verizon.net> Message-ID: <9ffc07713ff0af0234d62cda9d4bbfd6@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Sep 6, at 5:56 AM, allison wrote: > On 09/05/2010 10:06 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> I just ran across an NEC D75008 microcontroller in a small photo >> copier ca. 1990. According to a search it is a 4-bit microcontroller. >> >> Idle curiousity, but does anybody know if this has any inheritance >> from or relation to better-known microcontrollers such as the >> TMS1000, that is, is it NEC's version of something better known?, or >> is it NEC's own architecture? > No, it is NEC unique. For 4 bitters that is usually the case. it > is a much more expanded > design closer to modern PICs with many variants having LCD driver on > board. OK, a family I had never run across before. Found a datasheet for (by appearance) a descendant (D75112/6). Looks like they took a cue from the 8080 family - the register set is nearly identical but in 4 bits, with register pairs BC, DE, HL to make 8-bit registers. From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Mon Sep 6 13:36:27 2010 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 20:36:27 +0200 Subject: HP92160 fanfold thermal paper available Message-ID: <4C8534AB.9040000@bluewin.ch> Once more cleaning up, I came across 1300 sheets of fanfold thermal paper, which I will never use, since I do not have the thermal printer it is intended for.Am I right in believing that this paper is getting rare ? For the (rounded up,,,) cost of shipping from Switzerland it is yours. Jos Dreesen From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Sep 6 13:46:40 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 19:46:40 +0100 Subject: DiscFerret update: PCB done! In-Reply-To: <4C84C1AC.17552.4D4148@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C81AA10.5030705@philpem.me.uk>, <4C840C37.9080306@gmail.com>, <4C84C1AC.17552.4D4148@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C853710.2070104@philpem.me.uk> On 06/09/10 18:25, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Much of what Jens does could now be handled with most modern medium- > scale microcontrollers. I think that's what most of the other > products, such as the Deviceside do. All you need is a PWM-style > timer with a "capture" mode and the ability to address about 128K of > DRAM and a uC that runs at a sufficient speed to reduce aliasing > effects. There's really no magic involved at all. Indeed -- the SPS guys are doing one (Kryoflux, google it) with an Atmel SAM chip (if memory serves). Basically an ARM, Flash ROM and SRAM on a single chip. I'd be a little concerned about interrupt latency and jitter (the ARM is a pipelined RISC design, interrupt timing tends not to be 100% deterministic) but it's a really cool way to do it cheaply... > Given the > rather pedestrian nature of the job and the fast cheap uCs available > today, I doubt that a FPGA makes a lot of cost-effective sense in the > case of floppy work. The reason I went with the FPGA was partly because I wanted it (the DiscFerret) to be as flexible as possible. If all you want is floppy disc reading and analysis, an Atmel AT91SAM chip should be plenty. If you want to image hard drives (I do) then you NEED the raw speed and programmability of an FPGA. It's a feature not everyone will use, I'll admit, but I don't want to be stuck making a "DiscFerret II" in a couple of years time, just because I need to clone an MFM drive. The other thing you can do on an FPGA is run an entire disc controller IP core inside the GA, then use the microcontroller to pipe data in and out. In this way, you could have (say) the Suska WD1771 controller core running in the FPGA, reacting as a real WD1771 would when presented with the same input data. So not only can you read and write discs at bit-transition level, you can see how a real disc controller would handle the discs. Assuming, of course, you have an IP core for the disc controller in question (apparently the Intel 8271 isn't hard to clone, the 1771 has already been cloned, and I'm willing to bet someone's got an NEC 765 IP core) > And of course, one has to write the software to interpret the > results. But of course :) Cheers, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Mon Sep 6 13:50:20 2010 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 20:50:20 +0200 Subject: RS232-gpib interface available Message-ID: <4C8537EC.6030205@bluewin.ch> And another item to go: an RS232 to/from GPIB interface Small metal box, 220V supply, contains a minimal 8085 system with the expected gpib interface IC's Etched on the PCB is "Hopp systems", no further info available. I have already decided not to bother with GPIB anymore, so off it goes. Do not know how or if it works. Those who want tp pay something for this get preference, but other may apply also ! ( + shipping from Switezerland of course..) Jos From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Mon Sep 6 13:54:16 2010 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 20:54:16 +0200 Subject: Exploring the world of minis and mainframes... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C8538D8.7030505@bluewin.ch> On 09/04/2010 11:15 PM, Michael Kerpan wrote: > I'm thinking of doing a little write-up/summary on the > emulation/exploration of classic mainframe and minicomputer platforms > and > Not a mainframe, nor a mini, but certainly a classic : google for Emulith to find my emulator for the ETH Lilith Modula-2 computer. As an aside : did anyone ever succeeded in getting Altogether, the Xerox Alto emulator, running ? Jos From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Sep 6 14:05:04 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 12:05:04 -0700 Subject: Exploring the world of minis and mainframes... In-Reply-To: <4C8538D8.7030505@bluewin.ch> References: <4C8538D8.7030505@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <4C853B60.2050309@bitsavers.org> On 9/6/10 11:54 AM, Jos Dreesen wrote: > As an aside : did anyone ever succeeded in getting Altogether, the Xerox Alto emulator, running ? > The version on bitsavers works, which was a fork of Eric's project. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Sep 6 14:05:30 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 20:05:30 +0100 Subject: DiscFerret update: PCB done! In-Reply-To: <4C840C37.9080306@gmail.com> References: <4C81AA10.5030705@philpem.me.uk>, <4C81685E.13782.2C632DA@cclist.sydex.com> <4C840C37.9080306@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C853B7A.8060102@philpem.me.uk> On 05/09/10 22:31, Jules Richardson wrote: > Maybe they were a little misleading though if they gave the impression > that the software to do task x already existed (or if it did exist - but > only in the sense that someone somewhere had written it, but had no > plans to release it for everyone else to use). That would be rather sly > marketing, I think. Of course saying something like "these are the > features, you *could* do x, y and z with it" might be different. It's > all in the wording... I hope I've not given anyone that impression with the DiscFerret... In simple terms... - As sold, a DiscFerret will read floppy discs into timing-format images. - Write support is on the cards, I need to port it from the old "FDRW1" proof of concept. For the hard-of-thinking, this means it's not done yet :) - It will read anything you feed to it in Timing mode. Anything written by a NEC 765, WesternDigital 177x or 179x or clone in MFM mode should also decode to sector data. Decoding of anything else will require software to be written. Documentation is on the TODO list -- including a full Theory of Operation for the FPGA logic and microcontroller firmware, and a Programmer's Guide which will explain how to talk to the baseline firmware and make it do stuff, and how to do the same with DiscAPI. I want a magic box that'll image MFM/RLL/ESDI hard drives and floppies at transition level, so I can play with the data on the computer and do data recovery, format analysis, preservation and disc copying. At the moment, the biggest problem is that the %#$!ing Elektor PCB Service just charged my card for 100 Euros, the payment went through and the website now says "There was an unknown error with your payment!". The 'contact us' link which is SUPPOSED to be there.... isn't. And email doesn't work (apparently). So I have a pro-forma invoice, a Receipt Number, and a website that insists I haven't paid when I couldn't possibly have #2 without having paid first... Ho hum. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From shumaker at att.net Mon Sep 6 14:30:17 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 12:30:17 -0700 Subject: road trip, east coast In-Reply-To: <4C81789A.7090909@neurotica.com> References: <4C81789A.7090909@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C854149.2030600@att.net> Dave! Just sent you an offlist msg.... hopefully you're still checking email before you leave! Let me know (or call me in California) Steve Shumaker 831.338.3247 On 9/3/2010 3:37 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Hey folks. I realize this is short notice, but on Tuesday the 7th > I'll be hitting the road from Port Charlotte, FL (Gulf coast south of > Tampa) and driving a mostly-empty 16' box truck up to the Washington > DC area. I am willing to transport stuff along that route, within a > reasonable distance of the 95 corridor, for reasonable compensation. > > In the middle of the following week, likely around the 14th, I'll be > driving back down the same route. I will have less space available > then, but I should have some free room. > > Contact me directly via email if interested. > > -Dave > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 6 14:55:24 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 12:55:24 -0700 Subject: DiscFerret update: PCB done! In-Reply-To: <4C853710.2070104@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C81AA10.5030705@philpem.me.uk>, <4C84C1AC.17552.4D4148@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C853710.2070104@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C84E4BC.24523.D63900@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Sep 2010 at 19:46, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 06/09/10 18:25, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Much of what Jens does could now be handled with most modern medium- > > scale microcontrollers. I think that's what most of the other > > products, such as the Deviceside do. All you need is a PWM-style > > timer with a "capture" mode and the ability to address about 128K of > > DRAM and a uC that runs at a sufficient speed to reduce aliasing > > effects. There's really no magic involved at all. > > Indeed -- the SPS guys are doing one (Kryoflux, google it) with an > Atmel SAM chip (if memory serves). Basically an ARM, Flash ROM and > SRAM on a single chip. > > I'd be a little concerned about interrupt latency and jitter (the ARM > is a pipelined RISC design, interrupt timing tends not to be 100% > deterministic) but it's a really cool way to do it cheaply... If it's got a "capture" mode on a timer, then jitter and latency are of little concern--the CPU need only come around often enough to read the capture register and stash it away. Some DSPs even include a DMA mode for capture events, so the CPU is more or less out of the loop. What kind of hard drive MFM resolution are you going for on the DF? The CW samples floppies at 56MHz; similar resolution on an ordinary ST506 hard drive would seem to require a clock of 560MHz, which is high, even for an FPGA. Synthesizing a commodity floppy controller is of little interest to me, as much of what I deal with is very far from "standard" 3740-type floppies. Group code, weird address marks, hard sectoring, unique CRCs (or even integer checksums) are more the rule. Besides, I think that the SMSC floppy controller is still available (in TQFP). --Chuck From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Mon Sep 6 15:45:02 2010 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 13:45:02 -0700 Subject: Wanted: DEC RRD50 CD-ROM Manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5ED71E3E6C7C4C88B53DC905171A173F@tegp4> Anyone have a copy of or know the location of the DEC RRD50 maintenance manual, specification, etc.? I'm interested in the interface for historical curiosity only. I'm pretty sure the DEC drive was an OEM Philips CM100. Tom From jws at jwsss.com Mon Sep 6 14:26:27 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 12:26:27 -0700 Subject: UPDATE (Back on thread topic)Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA In-Reply-To: References: <262988.64281.qm@web110613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4C84AE2D.4090100@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4C854063.7020904@jwsss.com> I was going to publish more info here. It is still there. If someone here doesn't buy it, I'll rescue it to be sure it isn't lost for now. On 9/6/2010 5:57 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Mon, 6 Sep 2010, jim s wrote: > >> I visited today, and found a few items. > > What, if anything, became of the IMI 8" hard disk? It's in the > 'shelf-5.jpg' shot. What flavor of Altos did you get? They had Pick machines, and I'd be interested in seeing it if it was one of those. The others were unix / cpm etc. Jim From jthecman at netscape.net Mon Sep 6 16:35:00 2010 From: jthecman at netscape.net (jthecman at netscape.net) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 17:35:00 -0400 Subject: Free: Old manuals- Altos, CP/M, PDP-11, Northstar In-Reply-To: <2965.38743.qm@web110611.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <2965.38743.qm@web110611.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CD1C227D9C9C1A-1F98-40936@webmail-m016.sysops.aol.com> Ifyou still have them I would like to have the PDP11 and NorthStar manuals. Shipping would beto John Keys, 15827 Thistledew Drive, Houston, TX 77082. Let me know the shipping cost and I will paypal or mail you the funds. Thanks, John keys -----Original Message----- From: steven stengel To: cctech at classiccmp.org Sent: Sun, Sep 5, 2010 6:34 pm Subject: Free: Old manuals- Altos, CP/M, PDP-11, Northstar More than 50 pounds total - take one, some, or all. http://www.popbottlecaps.com/temp/books.html Located in southern California- 92656. From evan at snarc.net Mon Sep 6 17:55:43 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 18:55:43 -0400 Subject: They have an Amiga now with AROS, was Re: The Commodore 64 is back.. In-Reply-To: <189235.41284.qm@web113502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <189235.41284.qm@web113502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C85716F.8030405@snarc.net> > http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/31/commodore-usa-to-relaunch-amiga-brand-with-series-of-aros-deskto/ Possible scam involved? http://www.osnews.com/story/23753/Commodore_Gets_Rights_to_Amiga_Hyperion_Takes_Legal_Action From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Sep 6 18:05:58 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 16:05:58 -0700 Subject: They have an Amiga now with AROS, was Re: The Commodore 64 is back.. In-Reply-To: <4C85716F.8030405@snarc.net> References: <189235.41284.qm@web113502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4C85716F.8030405@snarc.net> Message-ID: At 6:55 PM -0400 9/6/10, Evan Koblentz wrote: >>http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/31/commodore-usa-to-relaunch-amiga-brand-with-series-of-aros-deskto/ > >Possible scam involved? >http://www.osnews.com/story/23753/Commodore_Gets_Rights_to_Amiga_Hyperion_Takes_Legal_Action Does that question surprise anyone? I've been asking myself the same thing since I first heard of them. The "Commodore USA" website is a joke. Most of the personal websites I look at are far more professional. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Sep 6 18:13:36 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 19:13:36 -0400 Subject: NEC D75008 MCU In-Reply-To: <9ffc07713ff0af0234d62cda9d4bbfd6@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4C84E504.9090504@verizon.net> <9ffc07713ff0af0234d62cda9d4bbfd6@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4C8575A0.2080404@verizon.net> On 09/06/2010 02:34 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2010 Sep 6, at 5:56 AM, allison wrote: > >> On 09/05/2010 10:06 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>> I just ran across an NEC D75008 microcontroller in a small photo >>> copier ca. 1990. According to a search it is a 4-bit microcontroller. >>> >>> Idle curiousity, but does anybody know if this has any inheritance >>> from or relation to better-known microcontrollers such as the >>> TMS1000, that is, is it NEC's version of something better known?, or >>> is it NEC's own architecture? > >> No, it is NEC unique. For 4 bitters that is usually the case. it >> is a much more expanded >> design closer to modern PICs with many variants having LCD driver on >> board. > > OK, a family I had never run across before. Found a datasheet for (by > appearance) a descendant (D75112/6). Looks like they took a cue from > the 8080 family - the register set is nearly identical but in 4 bits, > with register pairs BC, DE, HL to make 8-bit registers. > Many of the 4bit MCUs did that. The instruction set is is similar to 8080 and different since it has skip on condition and typical Harvard oddities and additions for tables and inline constants. The family closest to it is the 1980s ucom75. Allison From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Sep 6 21:26:57 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 03:26:57 +0100 Subject: DiscFerret update: PCB done! In-Reply-To: <4C84E4BC.24523.D63900@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C81AA10.5030705@philpem.me.uk>, <4C84C1AC.17552.4D4148@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C853710.2070104@philpem.me.uk> <4C84E4BC.24523.D63900@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C85A2F1.1080309@philpem.me.uk> On 06/09/10 20:55, Chuck Guzis wrote: > If it's got a "capture" mode on a timer, then jitter and latency are > of little concern--the CPU need only come around often enough to read > the capture register and stash it away. Some DSPs even include a DMA > mode for capture events, so the CPU is more or less out of the loop. Depends if the capture mode has auto-retrigger. Some PICs implement capture/compare by storing the timer value and throwing an interrupt on an external event. The timer is left running -- IIRC there isn't an option to reset it after the C/C event. > What kind of hard drive MFM resolution are you going for on the DF? > The CW samples floppies at 56MHz; similar resolution on an ordinary > ST506 hard drive would seem to require a clock of 560MHz, which is > high, even for an FPGA. Quartus reckons the ACQCLK will go to 200MHz internal. External oscillator is a 20MHz crystal, which gets PLL'd up accordingly. On a standard floppy, the rate I've been using most often is 40MHz. 80MHz is most likely going to be the default in the 'release' microcode. As for HDDs.. decoding a 5Mbps stream with a good margin would require about 10 clocks per bit. 50MHz. I'd sample at 100MHz or 200MHz just for a bit of additional margin. 20Mbit ESDI will most likely be a "design a controller and implement in an FPGA" exercise -- timing-acquisition might not work particularly well for that kind of bitrate. > Synthesizing a commodity floppy controller is of little interest to > me, as much of what I deal with is very far from "standard" 3740-type > floppies. Group code, weird address marks, hard sectoring, unique > CRCs (or even integer checksums) are more the rule. Besides, I think > that the SMSC floppy controller is still available (in TQFP). Point taken. But the SMSC floppy controller is a bitch to find, and if memory serves it has issues with precompensation (if it's anything like modern controllers, it just plain doesn't do precomp). Totally worthless for anything vaguely resembling reliable R/W work. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Sep 6 21:28:21 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 03:28:21 +0100 Subject: DiscFerret update: PCB done! In-Reply-To: <4C853B7A.8060102@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C81AA10.5030705@philpem.me.uk>, <4C81685E.13782.2C632DA@cclist.sydex.com> <4C840C37.9080306@gmail.com> <4C853B7A.8060102@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C85A345.20603@philpem.me.uk> On 06/09/10 20:05, Philip Pemberton wrote: > At the moment, the biggest problem is that the %#$!ing Elektor PCB > Service just charged my card for 100 Euros, the payment went through and > the website now says "There was an unknown error with your payment!". > The 'contact us' link which is SUPPOSED to be there.... isn't. And email > doesn't work (apparently). So I have a pro-forma invoice, a Receipt > Number, and a website that insists I haven't paid when I couldn't > possibly have #2 without having paid first... Ho hum. ... and it seems the error has fixed itself, because my board is now showing as "in production"... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 6 22:21:27 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 20:21:27 -0700 Subject: DiscFerret update: PCB done! In-Reply-To: <4C85A2F1.1080309@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C81AA10.5030705@philpem.me.uk>, <4C84E4BC.24523.D63900@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C85A2F1.1080309@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C854D47.20519.26E9912@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Sep 2010 at 3:26, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Depends if the capture mode has auto-retrigger. Some PICs implement > capture/compare by storing the timer value and throwing an interrupt > on an external event. The timer is left running -- IIRC there isn't an > option to reset it after the C/C event. As long as the timer is either wide enough (e.g. 32 bit) or wraps to 0 from its maximum count, it really doesn't matter. AVRs definitely do wrap and so do a number of other chips. ARM uses a 32-bit timer, which is more than adequate for floppy use. > Point taken. But the SMSC floppy controller is a bitch to find, and if > memory serves it has issues with precompensation (if it's anything > like modern controllers, it just plain doesn't do precomp). Totally > worthless for anything vaguely resembling reliable R/W work. The FDC37C78 is still listed in SMSC's current production, but I"ll agree that it's not easy to find on the spot market. It does have selectable precompensation (port 3F4): http://www.smsc.com/media/Downloads_Public/Data_Sheets/37c78.pdf It even does FM uncomplainingly. --Chuck From cctech at vax-11.org Mon Sep 6 23:29:54 2010 From: cctech at vax-11.org (cctech at vax-11.org) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 22:29:54 -0600 (MDT) Subject: RRD50 interface In-Reply-To: <4C5F49E9.8040504@softjar.se> References: <4C5F49E9.8040504@softjar.se> Message-ID: Sorry for the mis-threading, I lost the original posting. The older CDROM drives were in fact CD audio drives with the logic bolted on in place of the serial DACs. In fact I used to have an old Reference Technology drive which was a commercial CD drive and several boards worth of discrete logic which performed the C3 ECC correction. The CDROM functionality was just connected in place of the DACs. I suspect the RRD50 interface is three main wires: Bit clock (32x data rate) Left/Right (high for left, low for right, or vice versa) Serial data And, if memory serves it was called an I2S interface, though what the acronym stands for I don't recall. Unfortunately, I don't have any documentation of the parts I worked on for Cirrus Logic from the early CDROM projects. Those drives were based on a CD audio DSP chip (analog, servo, laser control, C1 & C2 ECC) and a backend chip (C3 ECC, cache memory, and ATA interface). Sony was the primary supplier of the DSP chips and Cirrus, Oak Technology, and a few others made the backend chips. A perusal of the CD documents (Red book) and CDROM document (Yellow book) might sheds some light on it all. Clint From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Sep 6 23:44:31 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 21:44:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: walking through an IBM shop in 1990 Message-ID: On Youtube I found a video of some guy walking through an IBM mainframe installation showing the viewer a bunch of stuff. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdNxaRa4roo Does anyone here know of similar videos for, say, a DEC installation? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Sep 7 00:07:23 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 22:07:23 -0700 Subject: RRD50 interface In-Reply-To: References: <4C5F49E9.8040504@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4C85C88B.2010701@brouhaha.com> cctech at vax-11.org wrote: > I suspect the RRD50 interface is three main wires: > > Bit clock (32x data rate) > Left/Right (high for left, low for right, or vice versa) > Serial data > > And, if memory serves it was called an I2S interface, though what the > acronym stands for I don't recall. The RRD50 is a Philips/LMSI CM100 CD-ROM drive, which was based on the Philips CD100 CD player. There was a CM155 host adapters for PCs. I used to have the CM100 and CM155 service manuals, but don't have them readily available now. This site claims to sell a PDF of the CM100 service manual for $29: http://www.manuals-in-pdf.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=375943 However, it might be a manual for the Philips CM100 Transmission Electron Microscope, rather than the Philips CM100 CD-ROM drive. It would have been nice if Philips hadn't used the same model number for two entirely different products. The CM100 interface is not I2S; there are I2S or similar signals inside the drive, but there's a bunch of logic that reformats the data for the interface. The interface uses EIA-422 differential pairs. IIRC there were one or two pairs for the data, one for commands to the 8051 microcontroller, and one for status back from the 8051. The drive hardware does not perform the C3 error correction; that is up to the host adapter or the host. The CM155 is a very dumb adapter, so the driver must do the C3 error correction. I spent some time reverse-engineering the 8051 firmware, though truth be told, there isn't really much of interest in there. Oddly enough, they came very close to implementing the CM100 interface in such a way that multiple drives could be used on one host adapter, by assigning them unit numbers on the DIP switch, but they didn't put in the EIA-485 drivers that would be necessary to make it work. (EIA-422 does not define drivers with a high-impedance state, while EIA-485 does.) > Sony was the primary supplier of the DSP chips and Cirrus, Oak > Technology, and a few others made the backend chips. The CM100 uses the Signetics SAA7000 series CD-Audio chipset, since Signetics was owned by Philips. There was a CM110 which had an additional board that adapted the CM100 interface to SCSI. I'd like to find one of those, or the M7552 (KRQ50) or M7490 host adapters for the RRD50, but I haven't ever found them. Eric From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 7 00:35:25 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 01:35:25 -0400 Subject: RRD50 interface In-Reply-To: <4C85C88B.2010701@brouhaha.com> References: <4C5F49E9.8040504@softjar.se> <4C85C88B.2010701@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C85CF1D.3060701@neurotica.com> On 9/7/10 1:07 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > There was a CM110 which had an additional board that adapted the CM100 > interface to SCSI. I'd like to find one of those, or the M7552 (KRQ50) > or M7490 host adapters for the RRD50, but I haven't ever found them. I have at least two KRQ50 boards here, but they've been raped for parts; I think there's a PLCC socket or similar that's empty on both of them, perhaps EPROMs too. Let me know if you want to research this further; I can dig them out in about two weeks when I'm back and settled in from my road trip -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Mon Sep 6 16:51:37 2010 From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (John S) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 21:51:37 +0000 Subject: Microwriter MW4 help Message-ID: Hi, I recently obtained a Microwriter with an LCD display. It turns on and displays MW4/10, with an 'f' in the right of the display. I can enter letters, but after about 8 it locks up and I need to power cycle (using the white button), which resets the unit as above. I think 'f' is a mode, I think it was 'I' originally (but I can't find a way to change it!). I hope it stuck in some mode or waiting for serial input, can anyone help with command sequences please? Else it may be faulty, I found Tony's post from 2009 asking for a 'good' EPROM image, maybe mine is failing in a similar way. Regards, John From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 20:31:32 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 21:31:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wanted: DEC RRD50 CD-ROM Manuals In-Reply-To: <5ED71E3E6C7C4C88B53DC905171A173F@tegp4> References: <5ED71E3E6C7C4C88B53DC905171A173F@tegp4> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Sep 2010, Tom Gardner wrote: > Anyone have a copy of or know the location of the DEC RRD50 maintenance > manual, specification, etc.? I'm interested in the interface for historical > curiosity only. Is that the one that used a bizarre proprietary plastic carrier for the disk? -- From nick.allen at comcast.net Mon Sep 6 23:46:41 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 23:46:41 -0500 Subject: Apple Lisa 1 for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C85C3B1.6080803@comcast.net> Hi Sellam, Is the Apple still available, if so I am VERY interested, please email me back either way, thnx! nick From nick.allen at comcast.net Mon Sep 6 23:48:05 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 23:48:05 -0500 Subject: [for sale] IBM 5100 + IBM 5120 Message-ID: <4C85C405.4020705@comcast.net> Hi, Is the IBM 5100 and 5120 still for sale, if so I am very interested, please let me know either way, thnx! Nick From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Sep 7 01:03:44 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 08:03:44 +0200 Subject: walking through an IBM shop in 1990 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100907060344.GA24857@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Sep 06, 2010 at 09:44:31PM -0700, David Griffith wrote: > > On Youtube I found a video of some guy walking through an IBM > mainframe installation showing the viewer a bunch of stuff. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdNxaRa4roo Wow, that is awesome (in the original sense), the cabling sure is a mess. Raised floors are horrible, cable ladders in the ceiling seems better. > > Does anyone here know of similar videos for, say, a DEC installation? Nope, but I see what looks like a DEC rack at around 1:55 in the video. /P From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Sep 7 02:24:06 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 00:24:06 -0700 Subject: Wanted: DEC RRD50 CD-ROM Manuals In-Reply-To: References: <5ED71E3E6C7C4C88B53DC905171A173F@tegp4> Message-ID: <4C85E896.2020805@brouhaha.com> Steven Hirsch asked about the DEC RRD50 (Philips/LMSI CM100): > Is that the one that used a bizarre proprietary plastic carrier for the disk? No, it's a top-loader with no caddy. Maybe the RRD40 used a proprietary caddy? I've never seen it, so I don't know. Eric From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 05:24:15 2010 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 11:24:15 +0100 Subject: Wanted: DEC RRD50 CD-ROM Manuals In-Reply-To: References: <5ED71E3E6C7C4C88B53DC905171A173F@tegp4> Message-ID: On 7 September 2010 02:31, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Mon, 6 Sep 2010, Tom Gardner wrote: > >> Anyone have a copy of or know the location of the DEC RRD50 maintenance >> manual, specification, etc.? ?I'm interested in the interface for >> historical >> curiosity only. > > Is that the one that used a bizarre proprietary plastic carrier for the > disk? Yep. I'm not in the workshop so can't easily check, but I know we have one on the 'someone might need one one day' floor, and I'm fairly sure I've got the manual at home. It's SCSI-1 AFAIK. -- -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home? computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Sep 7 10:28:22 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 08:28:22 -0700 Subject: Wanted: DEC RRD50 CD-ROM Manuals In-Reply-To: References: <5ED71E3E6C7C4C88B53DC905171A173F@tegp4>, Message-ID: What's bizarre about it? It was fairly standard - I have NEC drives that use that carrier, too. The interface is fairly vanilla SCSI. The drive itself is different than most modern drives in that it was 512 byte sectors instead of 2048. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Steven Hirsch [snhirsch at gmail.com] Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 6:31 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Wanted: DEC RRD50 CD-ROM Manuals On Mon, 6 Sep 2010, Tom Gardner wrote: > Anyone have a copy of or know the location of the DEC RRD50 maintenance > manual, specification, etc.? I'm interested in the interface for historical > curiosity only. Is that the one that used a bizarre proprietary plastic carrier for the disk? -- From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 10:59:16 2010 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 16:59:16 +0100 Subject: Wanted: DEC RRD50 CD-ROM Manuals In-Reply-To: <4C85E896.2020805@brouhaha.com> References: <5ED71E3E6C7C4C88B53DC905171A173F@tegp4> <4C85E896.2020805@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 7 September 2010 08:24, Eric Smith wrote: > ?Steven Hirsch asked about the DEC RRD50 (Philips/LMSI CM100): >> Is that the one that used a bizarre proprietary plastic carrier for the >> disk? > > No, it's a top-loader with no caddy. > > Maybe the RRD40 used a proprietary caddy? ?I've never seen it, so I don't > know. *googles*. Ah. I've never seen an RRD50 in that case! I must've been thinking of the RRD40 since the next one up was the dual-speed RRD42 which also used a caddy but was less proprietary as the drive itself (Toshiba?) was also used in the Apple 300i, NeXT and even the Amiga CD32. The RRD43 (also used by SUN) spat the tray AND mechanism at you and then we got speedy with the tray loading RRD44 and RRD45. -- -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home? computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Sep 7 10:23:18 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 16:23:18 +0100 Subject: DiscFerret update: PCB done! In-Reply-To: <4C854D47.20519.26E9912@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C81AA10.5030705@philpem.me.uk>, <4C84E4BC.24523.D63900@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C85A2F1.1080309@philpem.me.uk> <4C854D47.20519.26E9912@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C8658E6.8010201@philpem.me.uk> On 07/09/10 04:21, Chuck Guzis wrote: > As long as the timer is either wide enough (e.g. 32 bit) or wraps to > 0 from its maximum count, it really doesn't matter. AVRs definitely > do wrap and so do a number of other chips. ARM uses a 32-bit timer, > which is more than adequate for floppy use. In that case, as long as you start the timer at zero and record when it wraps, there should be no (significant) problem. You'll need to keep track of last_counter_value modulo max_counter_value and subtract that from each timer value, but it should work. Just a little more effort in the 'decode to delta' stage. Also, if you use a 32bit counter, you'll need plenty of RAM to store the counter values... The DiscFerret prototype stores around 100,000 sample points for a 500kps MFM track (1.4MB PC HD floppy). Each SP is one byte long on the DF; quadruple that for a 32-bit counter and you need about 400kbytes of RAM... not practical on most microcontrollers. > The FDC37C78 is still listed in SMSC's current production, but I"ll > agree that it's not easy to find on the spot market. It does have > selectable precompensation (port 3F4): > > http://www.smsc.com/media/Downloads_Public/Data_Sheets/37c78.pdf Neat. Seems a lot of modern "all-in-one" style Super I/O controllers have really poor data separators and precomp engines though. I've never found a PC controller that could even read BBC Micro floppies (250kbps FM 5.25in) without complaining. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Sep 7 06:11:49 2010 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 07:11:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wanted: DEC RRD50 CD-ROM Manuals In-Reply-To: <4C85E896.2020805@brouhaha.com> References: <5ED71E3E6C7C4C88B53DC905171A173F@tegp4> <4C85E896.2020805@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Sep 2010, Eric Smith wrote: > Steven Hirsch asked about the DEC RRD50 (Philips/LMSI CM100): >> Is that the one that used a bizarre proprietary plastic carrier for the > disk? > > No, it's a top-loader with no caddy. > > Maybe the RRD40 used a proprietary caddy? I've never seen it, so I don't > know. The RRD40 used a two-piece thin caddy with a "lobster claw" insert which stays in the drive with the CD. I can take a picture if you like, but this is the drive: http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/VAX/Vax-26L.jpg Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 7 11:22:14 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 12:22:14 -0400 Subject: Wanted: DEC RRD50 CD-ROM Manuals In-Reply-To: <4C85E896.2020805@brouhaha.com> References: <5ED71E3E6C7C4C88B53DC905171A173F@tegp4> <4C85E896.2020805@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C8666B6.4040907@neurotica.com> On 9/7/10 3:24 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > Steven Hirsch asked about the DEC RRD50 (Philips/LMSI CM100): > > Is that the one that used a bizarre proprietary plastic carrier for > the disk? > > No, it's a top-loader with no caddy. I'm pretty sure I have one of those brand new, still in the box. > Maybe the RRD40 used a proprietary caddy? I've never seen it, so I don't > know. Yes, I think that's correct. I have several of those drives here (anybody need any?) but they're out of sight at the moment. Might be RRD42 instead of RRD40? They're definitely the ones with the narrow slot that requires the strange "claw" caddy. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 7 11:23:02 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 12:23:02 -0400 Subject: Wanted: DEC RRD50 CD-ROM Manuals In-Reply-To: References: <5ED71E3E6C7C4C88B53DC905171A173F@tegp4> <4C85E896.2020805@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C8666E6.1030706@neurotica.com> On 9/7/10 7:11 AM, Mike Loewen wrote: >> Maybe the RRD40 used a proprietary caddy? I've never seen it, so I >> don't know. > > The RRD40 used a two-piece thin caddy with a "lobster claw" insert which > stays in the drive with the CD. I can take a picture if you like, but > this is the drive: > > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/VAX/Vax-26L.jpg AH! Yes, I have about six of those. And a few caddies, fortunately. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From alhartman at yahoo.com Tue Sep 7 02:27:17 2010 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 00:27:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: They have an Amiga now with AROS, was Re: The Commodore 64 is back.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <467551.10917.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com> AROS isn't anywhere near done enough to sell as part of a commercial product. I think there are a few garage type companies selling AROS compatible systems with AROS pre-loaded, but they intend only to sell to folks who know what they're buying. I.E.: An unfinished alpha-state OS. This makes me think this whole thing is doomed to failure if it's real at all. Mainly because nobody involved has any business sense. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Sep 7 11:28:00 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 09:28:00 -0700 Subject: Wanted: DEC RRD50 CD-ROM Manuals In-Reply-To: References: <5ED71E3E6C7C4C88B53DC905171A173F@tegp4>, Message-ID: <4C866810.3030609@brouhaha.com> Ian King wrote: > What's bizarre about it? It was fairly standard - I have NEC drives that use that carrier, too. NEC drives use a standard caddy. Early DEC drives (but not the RRD50) used a non-standard caddy; they didn't use the standard one until later. Eric From maurice.smulders at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 11:29:13 2010 From: maurice.smulders at gmail.com (maurice smulders) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 10:29:13 -0600 Subject: NEC D75008 MCU In-Reply-To: <4C8575A0.2080404@verizon.net> References: <4C84E504.9090504@verizon.net> <9ffc07713ff0af0234d62cda9d4bbfd6@cs.ubc.ca> <4C8575A0.2080404@verizon.net> Message-ID: I think I have the NEC databook containing the series. Do you need a scan? Thanks, Maurice On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 5:13 PM, allison wrote: > On 09/06/2010 02:34 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> >> On 2010 Sep 6, at 5:56 AM, allison wrote: >> >>> On 09/05/2010 10:06 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>>> >>>> I just ran across an NEC D75008 microcontroller in a small photo copier >>>> ca. 1990. According to a search it is a 4-bit microcontroller. >>>> >>>> Idle curiousity, but does anybody know if this has any inheritance from >>>> or relation to better-known microcontrollers such as the TMS1000, that is, >>>> is it NEC's version of something better known?, or is it NEC's own >>>> architecture? >> >>> No, ?it is NEC unique. ?For 4 bitters that is usually the case. ? it is a >>> much more expanded >>> design closer to modern PICs with many variants having LCD driver on >>> board. >> >> OK, a family I had never run across before. Found a datasheet for (by >> appearance) a descendant (D75112/6). Looks like they took a cue from the >> 8080 family - the register set is nearly identical but in 4 bits, with >> register pairs BC, DE, HL to make 8-bit registers. >> > > Many of the 4bit MCUs did that. ?The instruction set is is similar to 8080 > and different since it has > skip on condition and typical Harvard oddities and additions for tables and > inline constants. > > The family closest to it is the 1980s ucom75. > > Allison > -- I've clicked for peace! Have you? www.tenmillionclicksforpeace.org/?sid=80760c414LJa5893tG4095162&s=1 From wulfcub at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 11:41:05 2010 From: wulfcub at gmail.com (Wulf daMan) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 11:41:05 -0500 Subject: Minolta MS3000 Microfilm Scanner In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 10:09 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Does anyone happen to know where to get parts for one of these? At a > minimum I need lenses to get it working. > > Zane > Talk to Ken Hansen with Imaging Systems - 608-276-5559 or Dick Svehla at All Micrographics & Scanning - 352-684-1159. Both are pretty resourceful and tend to have a lot of assorted microfilm gear and parts on hand. If neither of them can help you out, let me know, and I'll dig a little deeper into my contacts list to see who else I can find. --Shaun -- "If you live to be a hundred, I want to live to be a hundred minus one day, so I never have to live without you." -- Winnie The Pooh http://www.lungs4amber.org From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Sep 7 11:41:17 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 17:41:17 +0100 Subject: Wanted: DEC RRD50 CD-ROM Manuals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1E86FB2FCE904BEF8FCA7FBBCA148D09@ANTONIOPC> Mike Loewen [mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us] wrote: > > The RRD40 used a two-piece thin caddy with a "lobster claw" insert > which stays in the drive with the CD. I can take a picture if you > like, but this is the drive: > > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/VAX/Vax-26L.jpg I don't know why, but we called the caddy "antlers". Somewhere or other I have a VS3100 (or MV3100, I forget exactly) with 3 or 4 RRD40 CDROMs fitted internally. Those are a drive plus a SCSI interface board. So I'm not sure that the RRD40 is native SCSI: I suspect that it's whatever the RRD50 was (or close to it) with an adapter board fitted. (My RRD40 is buried right now so I'm in no position to open it up and look). Antonio From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 7 12:12:18 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 10:12:18 -0700 Subject: DiscFerret update: PCB done! In-Reply-To: <4C8658E6.8010201@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C81AA10.5030705@philpem.me.uk>, <4C854D47.20519.26E9912@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C8658E6.8010201@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C861002.20102.5F9B38@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Sep 2010 at 16:23, Philip Pemberton wrote: > In that case, as long as you start the timer at zero and record when > it wraps, there should be no (significant) problem. You'll need to > keep track of last_counter_value modulo max_counter_value and subtract > that from each timer value, but it should work. Just a little more > effort in the 'decode to delta' stage. The ARM allows for byte access, so you simply set the counter to zero at the beginning of the sample sequence and store the low order 8 bits. You could keep the "last value" around in a register and calculate and store the delta as part of the process and have cycles to burn. I found that an AVR Mega128 was more than up to the job of sampling 250Kpbs and 500kbps media at 16MHz, using the capture mode with a timer run at 16MHz. The only place I used actual interrupt servicing routines was for basic event timing (i.e. seek and head settle) and index detection. The sample loop simply polled the "capture complete" status. Rather than use Jens' high-order bit index status in the sample output, I noted the leading edge of each index with a 00 sample--my own experience told me that the falling edge of index could vary wildly from drive maker to drive maker. The result worked amazingly well on the few samples I tossed at it, but I didn't pose any "tough cases" to see how aliasing affected recovery. I never investigated if it was good enough for writing, however. What I'm investingating currently is if a NXP ARM "thumb" uC can not only sample but decode on the fly, at least to the extent of recognizing sector ID headers, so that sector-mode operation is possible, rather than track at a time. Does your DF have that capability? > Neat. Seems a lot of modern "all-in-one" style Super I/O controllers > have really poor data separators and precomp engines though. I've > never found a PC controller that could even read BBC Micro floppies > (250kbps FM 5.25in) without complaining. I'd have to go back to my samples, but something is itching in the back of my skull that the Beeb floppies weren't strictly 3740- conforming. Oddball DAM or IDAM maybe? --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Sep 7 12:24:34 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 10:24:34 -0700 Subject: NEC D75008 MCU In-Reply-To: References: <4C84E504.9090504@verizon.net> <9ffc07713ff0af0234d62cda9d4bbfd6@cs.ubc.ca> <4C8575A0.2080404@verizon.net> Message-ID: <360bcb81ef273c3586ae1b4dabe5ca97@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Sep 7, at 9:29 AM, maurice smulders wrote: > I think I have the NEC databook containing the series. Do you need a > scan? Thanks, but no, I'm not planning on doing anything with the MCU (the photocopier was being discarded and the MCU is internally programmed). I was just interested in knowing something of the architectural/family provenance of the MCU as I had never run across it before. > On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 5:13 PM, allison wrote: >> On 09/06/2010 02:34 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>> >>> On 2010 Sep 6, at 5:56 AM, allison wrote: >>> >>>> On 09/05/2010 10:06 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I just ran across an NEC D75008 microcontroller in a small photo >>>>> copier >>>>> ca. 1990. According to a search it is a 4-bit microcontroller. >>>>> >>>>> Idle curiousity, but does anybody know if this has any inheritance >>>>> from >>>>> or relation to better-known microcontrollers such as the TMS1000, >>>>> that is, >>>>> is it NEC's version of something better known?, or is it NEC's own >>>>> architecture? >>> >>>> No, ?it is NEC unique. ?For 4 bitters that is usually the case. ? >>>> it is a >>>> much more expanded >>>> design closer to modern PICs with many variants having LCD driver on >>>> board. >>> >>> OK, a family I had never run across before. Found a datasheet for (by >>> appearance) a descendant (D75112/6). Looks like they took a cue from >>> the >>> 8080 family - the register set is nearly identical but in 4 bits, >>> with >>> register pairs BC, DE, HL to make 8-bit registers. >>> >> >> Many of the 4bit MCUs did that. ?The instruction set is is similar to >> 8080 >> and different since it has >> skip on condition and typical Harvard oddities and additions for >> tables and >> inline constants. >> >> The family closest to it is the 1980s ucom75. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 7 12:41:08 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 10:41:08 -0700 Subject: NEC D75008 MCU In-Reply-To: <360bcb81ef273c3586ae1b4dabe5ca97@cs.ubc.ca> References: , , <360bcb81ef273c3586ae1b4dabe5ca97@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4C8616C4.16463.79FFFE@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Sep 2010 at 10:24, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2010 Sep 7, at 9:29 AM, maurice smulders wrote: > > > I think I have the NEC databook containing the series. Do you need a > > scan? > > Thanks, but no, I'm not planning on doing anything with the MCU (the > photocopier was being discarded and the MCU is internally programmed). > I was just interested in knowing something of the architectural/family > provenance of the MCU as I had never run across it before. Back in the 70s and 80s, didn't many of the Japanese vendors (Toshiba, NEC, Hitachi) have their own uC implementations for things like FAX machines, telephone answering machines, copiers and the like? I also seem to recall that several vendors went to the 0.050" pin pitch on these rather early. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 7 13:11:25 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 19:11:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wanted: DEC RRD50 CD-ROM Manuals In-Reply-To: <4C85E896.2020805@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Sep 7, 10 00:24:06 am Message-ID: > > Steven Hirsch asked about the DEC RRD50 (Philips/LMSI CM100): > > Is that the one that used a bizarre proprietary plastic carrier for > the disk? > > No, it's a top-loader with no caddy. In which case, alas, what I have is not a CM110. My drive is a front loader that does take a caddy (same as a DEC RRD40), but is half-height 5.25" drive sized and has a SCSI interface..No, amazingly I've found it, it's a CM212, made by Laser Magnetic Storage International (who IIRC were connected with Philips). It's got the Philips radial tracking mechanism, and many of the TTL ICs that I can see have the Philips logo. Anyone got a CM212 service manual? > > Maybe the RRD40 used a proprietary caddy? I've never seen it, so I > don't know. It does. Well, the caddt was also used with other Philips/LMSI drives. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 7 12:47:20 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 18:47:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Microwriter MW4 help In-Reply-To: from "John S" at Sep 6, 10 09:51:37 pm Message-ID: > I recently obtained a Microwriter with an LCD display. It turns on and disp= > lays MW4/10=2C with an 'f' in the right of the display. I can enter letters= > =2C but after about 8 it locks up and I need to power cycle (using the whit= > e button)=2C which resets the unit as above. > > I think 'f' is a mode=2C I think it was 'I' originally (but I can't find a = > way to change it!). I hope it stuck in some mode or waiting for serial inpu= > t=2C can anyone help with command sequences please? Else it may be faulty= > =2C I found Tony's post from 2009 asking for a 'good' EPROM image=2C maybe = > mine is failing in a similar way. FWIW, I am still stuck... I am pretty sure the Firmware EPROM in mine is corrupted, some 'chords' do not produce the characters I would espect (IIRC itr looks almost like a 1-way short between 2 of the buttons, if you see what I mean,, buit the microswitches, cabling, diodes, etc all check out perfectly. IIRC, the EPROM is a 25C64 (which is sligthly different to the more common 27C64). If you have a programmer capable of reading out that device, it would be ionteresting to compare the ROM in mine with it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 7 13:01:04 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 19:01:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: RRD50 interface In-Reply-To: from "cctech@vax-11.org" at Sep 6, 10 10:29:54 pm Message-ID: > > > Sorry for the mis-threading, I lost the original posting. > > The older CDROM drives were in fact CD audio drives with the logic bolted > on in place of the serial DACs. In fact I used to have an old Reference I have (and still use) an ancient external Philips single-speed CD-ROM drive (CDD462) which is a modified (by Philips) CD player. To the exptent that you need both its service manual and the one for the CR player it was based on to repair it. In fact for the one fault I've had with it, the CD-ROM drive service manual was not a lot of help. The mains switch failed. Yes, it's shown on the schematics, but for some reason not listed in the parts list. It is listed in the CD player manual, so I could order a replacement. IIRC, there is a ULA-type thing conencted to the input of the DACs which extracts the right bit of the bit-stream and sends it to the interface card in the PC (one ASIC and a buffer RAM). There's also a serial command/status link from the PC to the control microcontroller in the CD-ROM drive, to let the PC select the block to start reading from, etc. The main CD-player chipset was still there, it was the Philips one, of course, as docuemtned in their data books. > Technology drive which was a commercial CD drive and several boards worth > of discrete logic which performed the C3 ECC correction. The CDROM That sounds like fun... > functionality was just connected in place of the DACs. The Philis unit I mentioned kept the DACs, and even the headphone amplifdier. It ahs the normal play/stop/prev/next buttons on the front, and can be used as a CD-player without having a computer conencted. > > I suspect the RRD50 interface is three main wires: > > Bit clock (32x data rate) > Left/Right (high for left, low for right, or vice versa) > Serial data > > And, if memory serves it was called an I2S interface, though what the > acronym stands for I don't recall. I2S = Inter IC Sound (at least in this case [1]). There's also the totally different, but also from Philips I2C (Inter IC Communication) [1] Long before this there was an American company called IIS or I2S (I've seen both) standing for International Imaging Systems or something like that. They made some very nice image processor/display units for PDP11s -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 7 13:04:04 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 19:04:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: RRD50 interface In-Reply-To: <4C85C88B.2010701@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Sep 6, 10 10:07:23 pm Message-ID: > There was a CM110 which had an additional board that adapted the CM100 > interface to SCSI. I'd like to find one of those, or the M7552 (KRQ50) > or M7490 host adapters for the RRD50, but I haven't ever found them. I thnik I was given a CM110 many yuars ago. If so, I still have it (I never throw anytthing away...) ut don't expect me to know where it is. I would love to see a service manual for that, from what I rememebr I could recgnise most of the chips inside it, but there were a couple of custom ones... -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 13:35:31 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 14:35:31 -0400 Subject: VCFeast Message-ID: I have not heard anything about VCF East 2010. Will it happen? The year is starting to run down. -- Will From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Tue Sep 7 13:53:03 2010 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 11:53:03 -0700 Subject: Wanted: DEC RRD50 CD-ROM Manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7 Sep 2010 16:59:16 +0100 Adrian Graham wrote: > On 7 September 2010 02:31, Steven Hirsch wrote: > > On Mon, 6 Sep 2010, Tom Gardner wrote: > > > >> Anyone have a copy of or know the location of the DEC RRD50 maintenance > >> manual, specification, etc.? ?I'm interested in the interface for > >> historical > >> curiosity only. > Yep. I'm not in the workshop so can't easily check, but I know we have > one on the 'someone might need one one day' floor, and I'm fairly sure > I've got the manual at home. It's SCSI-1 AFAIK. > -- > adrian/witchy > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home? computer collection? > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk AFAIK the Philips CM100 inside the RRD50 used a proprietary interface, possibly a variant on ESDI - that's one of the things I'm trying to figure out. It maybe that DEC put a SCSI-1 bridge controller inside the RRD50 box so it presented that interface to the world. If possible a scan of the manual would be greatly appreciated. U can contact me off line to figure out how to do it. Tom tgardnercomputerorg From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Sep 7 14:06:46 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 12:06:46 -0700 Subject: Wanted: DEC RRD50 CD-ROM Manuals In-Reply-To: References: <5ED71E3E6C7C4C88B53DC905171A173F@tegp4>, Message-ID: Oops, I misread the original post - not enough caffeine in the bloodstream yet.... > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian King > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 8:28 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Wanted: DEC RRD50 CD-ROM Manuals > > What's bizarre about it? It was fairly standard - I have NEC drives > that use that carrier, too. > > The interface is fairly vanilla SCSI. The drive itself is different > than most modern drives in that it was 512 byte sectors instead of > 2048. -- Ian > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On > Behalf Of Steven Hirsch [snhirsch at gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 6:31 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: Wanted: DEC RRD50 CD-ROM Manuals > > On Mon, 6 Sep 2010, Tom Gardner wrote: > > > Anyone have a copy of or know the location of the DEC RRD50 > maintenance > > manual, specification, etc.? I'm interested in the interface for > historical > > curiosity only. > > Is that the one that used a bizarre proprietary plastic carrier for the > disk? > > -- > > From blkline at attglobal.net Tue Sep 7 14:49:45 2010 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 15:49:45 -0400 Subject: VCFeast In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C869759.6090508@attglobal.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 William Donzelli wrote: > I have not heard anything about VCF East 2010. Will it happen? The > year is starting to run down. Ethan sent the following post on the MARCH mailing list: Mark your calendars: VCF East 7.0 will be May 14-15, 2011. Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFMhpdZCFu3bIiwtTARApxxAJ424g/lezlWqjDeaFEsZnMAuhZm0QCfVO0O EdS43AKpFByXtFQdcAySzGQ= =L6IW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From legalize at xmission.com Tue Sep 7 15:20:32 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 14:20:32 -0600 Subject: VCF west In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 07 Sep 2010 14:35:31 -0400. Message-ID: Speaking of VCFs, when is the next VCF west? I have given up hopes of there ever beeing a VCF mountain. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 15:45:24 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 16:45:24 -0400 Subject: VCFeast In-Reply-To: <4C869759.6090508@attglobal.net> References: <4C869759.6090508@attglobal.net> Message-ID: > Mark your calendars: VCF East 7.0 will be May 14-15, 2011. What is the reason for the shift from Autumn to Spring? And so close to Dayton? -- Will From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 16:00:47 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 17:00:47 -0400 Subject: Wanted: DEC RRD50 CD-ROM Manuals In-Reply-To: <4C85E896.2020805@brouhaha.com> References: <5ED71E3E6C7C4C88B53DC905171A173F@tegp4> <4C85E896.2020805@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C86A7FF.7000507@gmail.com> Eric Smith wrote: > Steven Hirsch asked about the DEC RRD50 (Philips/LMSI CM100): > > Is that the one that used a bizarre proprietary plastic carrier for > the disk? > > No, it's a top-loader with no caddy. > > Maybe the RRD40 used a proprietary caddy? I've never seen it, so I don't > know. Yes, the RRD40 used a proprietary caddy. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 16:08:47 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 17:08:47 -0400 Subject: Wanted: DEC RRD50 CD-ROM Manuals In-Reply-To: <1E86FB2FCE904BEF8FCA7FBBCA148D09@ANTONIOPC> References: <1E86FB2FCE904BEF8FCA7FBBCA148D09@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <4C86A9DF.4010407@gmail.com> arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Somewhere or other I have a VS3100 (or MV3100, I forget exactly) > with 3 or 4 RRD40 CDROMs fitted internally. Those are a drive > plus a SCSI interface board. So I'm not sure that the RRD40 is > native SCSI: I suspect that it's whatever the RRD50 was (or close to it) > with an adapter board fitted. (My RRD40 is buried right now so > I'm in no position to open it up and look). I can verify that the RRD40 uses a non-SCSI interface to a SCSI bridgeboard. The standard-caddy-using standard-SCSI-connected CD-ROM is the RRD42. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 16:13:00 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 17:13:00 -0400 Subject: VCFeast In-Reply-To: References: <4C869759.6090508@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <4C86AADC.9030002@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> Mark your calendars: VCF East 7.0 will be May 14-15, 2011. > > What is the reason for the shift from Autumn to Spring? And so close to Dayton? It used to be held in the spring and switched to the autumn for the last two events. It's just switching back. Peace... Sridhar From blkline at attglobal.net Tue Sep 7 16:22:31 2010 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 17:22:31 -0400 Subject: VCFeast In-Reply-To: References: <4C869759.6090508@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <4C86AD17.7020507@attglobal.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 William Donzelli wrote: > What is the reason for the shift from Autumn to Spring? And so close to Dayton? There are a variety of reasons, from what I can see in the group. Evan (not Ethan, as I had earlier mistyped) had a rather lengthy post which I will forward to your if you want it. Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFMhq0XCFu3bIiwtTARAoHjAJ9ChBYTHf1wv5T36kim2Rv2AY4WVwCdFatM oYRymFXFiYnNRi4U7Uxso0Y= =wj84 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From chd at chdickman.com Tue Sep 7 17:32:36 2010 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 18:32:36 -0400 Subject: Why CD carriers? was: Wanted: DEC RRD50 CD-ROM Manuals Message-ID: What was the reason for the carriers used on first generation CD-ROM drives? My first CD-ROM drive cost about $800, but it included an encyclopedia. :-) It used the "standard carrier". I have a Pinnacle RCD-1000 disk burner that also uses the same carrier. I remember that it was attached to an IBM PC-AT or something close and that we basically turned out the lights in the room so as not to disturb it during a burn. The audio drives used the drawer. I know the error correction is better on the audio disk than the data disks, but I haven't found the data disks to be that unreliable. Anyway, why the carriers? -chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 19:19:58 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 20:19:58 -0400 Subject: VCFeast In-Reply-To: <4C86AD17.7020507@attglobal.net> References: <4C869759.6090508@attglobal.net> <4C86AD17.7020507@attglobal.net> Message-ID: > There are a variety of reasons, from what I can see in the group. ?Evan > (not Ethan, as I had earlier mistyped) had a rather lengthy post which I > will forward to your if you want it. A moot point now, but yes, I suppose I would like to see the email. I am not on the MARCH list. I will likely still be out West for VCF East, so MARCH may have to figure out some other means to get Claude to the show. I will let him know. -- Will From tosteve at yahoo.com Tue Sep 7 19:21:47 2010 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 17:21:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Free: Old manuals- Altos, CP/M, PDP-11, Northstar In-Reply-To: <8CD1C227D9C9C1A-1F98-40936@webmail-m016.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <449119.41107.qm@web110612.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> All manuals have been claimed. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I apologize if you received more than one email - Yahoo "Classic" does this. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- On Mon, 9/6/10, jthecman at netscape.net wrote: > From: jthecman at netscape.net > Subject: Re: Free: Old manuals- Altos, CP/M, PDP-11, Northstar > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Date: Monday, September 6, 2010, 2:35 PM > Ifyou still have them I would like to > have the PDP11 and NorthStar manuals. Shipping would beto > John Keys, 15827 Thistledew Drive, Houston, TX 77082. Let me > know the shipping cost and I will paypal or mail you the > funds. > Thanks, > John keys > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: steven stengel > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Sent: Sun, Sep 5, 2010 6:34 pm > Subject: Free: Old manuals- Altos, CP/M, PDP-11, Northstar > > > More than 50 pounds total - take one, some, or all. > > http://www.popbottlecaps.com/temp/books.html > > Located in southern California- 92656. > > > > > > From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Sep 7 20:07:49 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 18:07:49 -0700 Subject: Wanted: DEC RRD50 CD-ROM Manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C86E1E5.7080301@brouhaha.com> Tom Gardner wrote: > AFAIK the Philips CM100 inside the RRD50 used a proprietary interface, Proprietary to Philips/LMSI, yes. > possibly a variant on ESDI - that's one of the things I'm trying to figure > out. No, not even vaguely similar to ESDI. > It maybe that DEC put a SCSI-1 bridge controller inside the RRD50 box No, the RRD50 isn't SCSI. It's just a CM100, so it talks via the proprietary interface to DEC's Qbus or Unibus host adapters. And AFAIK, those host adapters only support the RRD50 (or CM100). Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Sep 7 20:10:22 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 18:10:22 -0700 Subject: Why CD carriers? was: Wanted: DEC RRD50 CD-ROM Manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C86E27E.2090902@brouhaha.com> Charles Dickman wrote: > What was the reason for the carriers used on first generation CD-ROM drives? The original expectation was that you would have a few CD-ROMs that you used frequently, and the caddy would keep the CD from being scratched in handling. Eric From chd at chdickman.com Tue Sep 7 20:47:15 2010 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 21:47:15 -0400 Subject: RRD40 was :Re: Why CD carriers? was: Wanted: DEC RRD50 CD-ROM Manuals Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 9:10 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > ... the caddy would keep the CD from being scratched in handling. > > Eric > > Which seems reasonable and obvious... The RRD40 that I have was given to me so that I could learn the way of the VAX and VMS. I have since found other CD drives that understand the special way of reading the short CD sectors. Today I am reminded of it, I am bound by honor to pass this drive on to another VAX/VMS kinder. I will send this drive to someone that wants to learn VAX/VMS and needs it to boot the OS. -chuck From rmay635703a at yahoo.com Tue Sep 7 21:02:46 2010 From: rmay635703a at yahoo.com (Ry May) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 19:02:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to repair Tektronix 4696 inkjet and what to use for the cleaner fluid cartridge? In-Reply-To: <1283788186.352.35161.m4@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <597726.26857.qm@web113818.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I own an old Casi Computer Portraits System with an old dried up Tektronix 4696 inkjet printer (the one with the actual wells)? Anyway I receieved it sort of working but it only would print Black and blue the other colors were plugged, I made the mistake of turning on and off too many times and wasted all teh fluid in the one remaining maintenance fluid cartridge.? Anyone have any ideas how to coax this beast to life?? I can pretty much use any ink.? Also I need to know the Dipp settings on the unit because i have a feeling it isn't configured for my box. ? The maintenance fluid has me stumped, distilled water maybe? ? Thank You Ryan May From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 21:37:32 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 22:37:32 -0400 Subject: How to repair Tektronix 4696 inkjet and what to use for the cleaner fluid cartridge? In-Reply-To: <597726.26857.qm@web113818.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1283788186.352.35161.m4@yahoogroups.com> <597726.26857.qm@web113818.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 9/7/10, Ry May wrote: > > I own an old Casi Computer Portraits System with an old dried up Tektronix > 4696 inkjet printer (the one with the actual wells) I had a 4695 - paid $200 for it at Dayton (when that was a *good* price for a color inkjet) and got a bunch of free ink and spare printhead from a client who had abandoned theirs (too fussy - took too much effort to calibrate after it was moved, etc). I never did get more than test prints out of it. :-( > Also I need to know the Dipp settings on the unit because i have a feeling > it isn't configured for my box. There might be a hint in an old Amiga manual - I know AmigaDOS supported it, and ISTR there was a dipswitch diagram and a sentence or two for setup. > The maintenance fluid has me stumped, distilled water maybe? That might be it, or deionized (DI) water. I don't think it was alcohol. -ethan From evan at snarc.net Tue Sep 7 23:00:33 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2010 00:00:33 -0400 Subject: VCFeast In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C870A61.1030106@snarc.net> > I have not heard anything about VCF East 2010. Will it happen? The year is starting to run down. We're taking a break this year. VCF East 7.0 will be May 14-15 at our usual location (InfoAge Science Center, Wall, New Jersey.) From evan at snarc.net Tue Sep 7 23:05:34 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2010 00:05:34 -0400 Subject: VCFeast In-Reply-To: References: <4C869759.6090508@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <4C870B8E.90001@snarc.net> >> Mark your calendars: VCF East 7.0 will be May 14-15, 2011. > What is the reason for the shift from Autumn to Spring? And so close to Dayton? Several reasons. Summer is Jersey short tourist season, which creates a nightmare for hotel costs, traffic, etc. September is frequently problematic because of Labor Day, everyone's kids going back to school, 9/11 anniversary, and the Jewish high holidays. October doesn't work for us because our museum always has a month-long Halloween event. Winter is generally risky because of weather concerns, nor did we want to overlap with future VCF West editions. That leaves the springtime. April here in NJ is all about the Trenton show. So, it's basically May or nothing for us. The Dayton hamfest is far away and only affects a few people overlap-wise who'd have to choose. From evan at snarc.net Tue Sep 7 23:08:10 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2010 00:08:10 -0400 Subject: VCF west In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C870C2A.8040802@snarc.net> > Speaking of VCFs, when is the next VCF west? I have given up hopes of there ever beeing a VCF mountain. Sellam is taking a continued hiatus from VCF West. He needs local help from people with significant event management experience, or a boom in his other business(es), or both. From marvin at west.net Tue Sep 7 23:11:59 2010 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 21:11:59 -0700 Subject: RCA CDP 18S604B Message-ID: <4C870D0F.8020604@west.net> I just found a couple of standard bus cards marked "CDP 18S 604B" and no real idea what they are. A Google search gave 3 results, all in German from their edition of Computer Weekly dated 1981. One looks to be in the original packaging, and the other looks used with an expansion PROM board. Unfortunately, no docs although I'll be trying to see if the person who had them has any docs left. Anyone have any idea what these things are? From bdamer at digitalspace.com Tue Sep 7 18:42:27 2010 From: bdamer at digitalspace.com (Bruce Damer) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 16:42:27 -0700 Subject: 8008 disassembly for 1972-73 SacState DOS/PROMs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201009072342.o87NgVYp085237@billY.EZWIND.NET> Hi CC Techers, Dwight Elvey visited here the other day and dumped the contents of the eight 1702 PROMs that are the heart of the Digibarn's 8008 system built by Bill Pentz and team at Sacramento State in 1972-73. It might have drivers and code for their "DOS" which supported a serial interface, hard disk, Tektronix 4023 and interpreter for mainframe 370 IBM BAL. It might be junk or nothing. If there was something there it would be the "earliest" such code for a microcomputer and very valuable historically. The SacState 8008 story can be seen at: http://www.digibarn.com/stories/bill-pentz-story/index.html and we would love to add the disassembled code to this ongoing project. If you are interested in trying to disassemble this and interpret what this code represents please email me directly at: bdamer at digitalspace.com and I will send you the binaries. Bruce cc Dwight From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 20:09:32 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 21:09:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wanted: DEC RRD50 CD-ROM Manuals In-Reply-To: References: <5ED71E3E6C7C4C88B53DC905171A173F@tegp4> <4C85E896.2020805@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Sep 2010, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Tue, 7 Sep 2010, Eric Smith wrote: > >> Steven Hirsch asked about the DEC RRD50 (Philips/LMSI CM100): >>> Is that the one that used a bizarre proprietary plastic carrier for the >> disk? >> >> No, it's a top-loader with no caddy. >> >> Maybe the RRD40 used a proprietary caddy? I've never seen it, so I don't >> know. > > The RRD40 used a two-piece thin caddy with a "lobster claw" insert which > stays in the drive with the CD. I can take a picture if you like, but this > is the drive: > > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/VAX/Vax-26L.jpg Yup, that's the one I'm thinking of. -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 20:10:57 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 21:10:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wanted: DEC RRD50 CD-ROM Manuals In-Reply-To: References: <5ED71E3E6C7C4C88B53DC905171A173F@tegp4>, Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Sep 2010, Ian King wrote: > What's bizarre about it? It was fairly standard - I have NEC drives > that use that carrier, too. All the NEC drives I've seen have used the more conventional sliding-shutter CD carrier. Never ran into the style you mention. Learn something every day! Steve -- From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 23:51:10 2010 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 21:51:10 -0700 Subject: RCA CDP 18S604B In-Reply-To: <4C870D0F.8020604@west.net> References: <4C870D0F.8020604@west.net> Message-ID: I have a CDP18S60? CPU board, a CDP18S623A RAM board, and a CDP18S625 EPROM board. I don't have an original backplane to plug them into. They plug into the "Microboard Bus Interface" bus. I have originals of the following catalog and manuals: MPG-180C COSMAC Microprocessor Product Guide MB-601 RCA COSMAC Microboard Computer CDP18S601 MB-623 RCA COSMAC Microboard 8-Kilobyte RAM CDP18S623 MB-625 RCA COSMAC Microboard 8/16/32-Kilobyte ROM/PROM CDP18S625 MB-640 RCA COSMAC Microboard Control and Display Module CDP18S640 MB-601: "The RCA COSMAC Microboard Computer CDP18S601 is a versatile computer system on a single 4.5 x 7.5 inch card. The card contains a CDP1802 CPU, a crystal-controlled clock, read-write memory, parallel I/O ports, a serial communications interface, power-on reset, and expansion interface. Four on-board sockets are provided for read-only memory enabling the user to select 4 or 8 kilobytes of mask-programmable ROM or EPROM, depending on the applications. Because of its CMOS design and low current requirements, the power supply and cooling requirements are minimal. The CDP18S601 Microboard Computer is designed to provide the key hardware for various microcomputer applications allowing the designer to concentrate on the software and special requirements of his specific application. The CDP18S601 is plug-in compatible with the RCA COSMAC Development System II CDP18S005 and the RCA COSMAC CDOS Development System CDP18S007 facilitating prototype design and debugging of both hardware and software." I wonder if any of these docs are scanned anywhere on the net. Here's one webpage which lists the documents but doesn't have links to them: http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/cosmac/dev4.htm -Glen On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 9:11 PM, Marvin Johnston wrote: > I just found a couple of standard bus cards marked "CDP 18S 604B" and no > real idea what they are. A Google search gave 3 results, all in German from > their edition of Computer Weekly dated 1981. > > One looks to be in the original packaging, and the other looks used with an > expansion PROM board. Unfortunately, no docs although I'll be trying to see > if the person who had them has any docs left. > > Anyone have any idea what these things are? From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Wed Sep 8 00:10:06 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 22:10:06 -0700 Subject: HP-85 keycaps Message-ID: <4C871AAE.2090703@mail.msu.edu> Hi all -- I've acquired an HP 85B computer in good working condition except for two missing keycaps. Anyone happen to have spares? I need a "k8/k4" key and a "comma" (numeric keypad) key. Thanks! Josh From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 00:29:57 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 01:29:57 -0400 Subject: HP-85 keycaps In-Reply-To: <4C871AAE.2090703@mail.msu.edu> References: <4C871AAE.2090703@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: > I've acquired an HP 85B computer in good working condition except for two > missing keycaps. ?Anyone happen to have spares? ?I need a "k8/k4" key and a > "comma" (numeric keypad) key. Fair Radio had a pile of junky 85s as of a month or so ago. Perhaps they can harvest some keys for you. -- Will From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 00:48:30 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 22:48:30 -0700 Subject: Byte, August 1981 issue... Message-ID: I'm so excited... I won a copy of the August 1981 issue of Byte (the infamous Smalltalk issue) on Ebay for $4. It arrived while I was away this weekend, so that was an awesome way to end my Labor Day weekend. Mark From bear at typewritten.org Wed Sep 8 03:01:47 2010 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 01:01:47 -0700 Subject: source for large capacity electrolytics Message-ID: Folks; The 5V rail in my Sun 2/120's PSU recently failed suddenly while the system was running. No pop, but the rail measures out around 2.5VDC. I believe I have tracked the fault down to one of a pair of 26000uF electrolytics which are in parallel across the 5V output studs. These are screw-lead, rated for 7.5V (12V surge), 85 deg. C, -10 +75% tol. They are 1.375" dia, and 2.125" tall. Mechanically, there is no room for anything even slighlty larger. Mouser stocks a part which is physically too tall---at 3.125", too tall by an inch. This is a 10V (12V surge) part. They also stock a 50V part from a different manufacturer which is even taller (>4"). There are 10V (12V surge) parts that fit, but have too low a capacitance (18000uF). There are 7.5V (9V surge) parts which will fit, but have too high a capacitance (49000uF), and I'm not totally sure how to be certain that a 9V surge rating is adequate in this application. Digi-key stocks nothing even close. Any suggestions? ok bear From david_comley at yahoo.com Wed Sep 8 07:11:10 2010 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 05:11:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: source for large capacity electrolytics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <215844.53596.qm@web30603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 9/8/10, r.stricklin wrote: > > Digi-key stocks nothing even close. > I've used tedss.com as a source for large can electrolytics when repairing various DEC power supplies. They have a reasonable assortment on hand. -Dave From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 09:05:28 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 10:05:28 -0400 Subject: RCA CDP 18S604B In-Reply-To: <4C870D0F.8020604@west.net> References: <4C870D0F.8020604@west.net> Message-ID: On 9/8/10, Marvin Johnston wrote: > I just found a couple of standard bus cards marked "CDP 18S 604B" and no > real idea what they are. A Google search gave 3 results, all in German > from their edition of Computer Weekly dated 1981. I googled for the part number with no spaces and found a reference to it on the cosmacelf Yahoo Group, including a link to the original docs. > One looks to be in the original packaging, and the other looks used with > an expansion PROM board. Nice. > Unfortunately, no docs... (you will probably have to join the cosmacelf Yahoo Group to get the file) > Anyone have any idea what these things are? RCA 1802 SBCs. More I/O than an Elf, but, AFAIK, meant for embedded applications more than general-purpose computing. RCA had a 44-pin cage for larger systems. I have a 3rd-party board that's mostly compatible with this, but not a "real" RCA board. Mine has more room for RAM/ROM sockets, but no prototype area, for instance. Same 44-pin connector on one end and same parallel I/O connector on the other. -ethan From rws at ripco.com Wed Sep 8 11:19:47 2010 From: rws at ripco.com (Richard Schauer) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 11:19:47 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Toshiba 3100/20 In-Reply-To: <4524A3E2D0982B4886AA71D88A1A06D40127D4DC@enpemea-nmexm01.emea.enpad.org> References: <4524A3E2D0982B4886AA71D88A1A06D40127D4DC@enpemea-nmexm01.emea.enpad.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Aug 2010, Martin.Stransky at emerson.com wrote: > I need to read data from my friend's old Toshiba PC with HDD 26 pin > connector. I would need to know what are the signals, or what is the > adapter. Even though I know that this guy probably isn't a classiccmp member, just replying to some message he found from who knows when, I'll echo his question. I have one of these too, and they seem to have trouble with the power supplies in them (not the external brick, the internal one). It's at least partly related to the fishy SMT capacitor problem; I've replaced all of them in mine. I have some data stored on the hard drive that I'd like to get; of course it's a neat computer too, that I'd like to have running (there's a reason the data is on the drive!) The connector isn't 26 pins as he says, though, it's 44 pins. There's a common fine-pitch connector used on laptop IDE drives that's 44 pins- this isn't it. It's just like the 2x20 .100 spacing 40-pin IDE connector, but 2x22. The drive is a JVC with a model number I don't have in front of me, that doesn't seem to be used much of anywhere else. Googling it comes up with a couple of people wanting to sell me one, but nothing else. Any ideas? It'd be nice if the connector was just IDE with power tacked on one end. Thanks, Richard Schauer KF9VP From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 11:58:39 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 12:58:39 -0400 Subject: VCFeast In-Reply-To: <4C870B8E.90001@snarc.net> References: <4C869759.6090508@attglobal.net> <4C870B8E.90001@snarc.net> Message-ID: > The Dayton hamfest is far away and only affects a few people overlap-wise > who'd have to choose. Do not underestimate the power of the Dayton Hamvention to suck away people from other events. I see it here in the Northeast in the hamfest season, and I used to see it when I did the hamfest scene back around Chicago. Basically, no one is safe within a days drive. -- Will From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 12:02:30 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 13:02:30 -0400 Subject: VCFeast In-Reply-To: References: <4C869759.6090508@attglobal.net> <4C870B8E.90001@snarc.net> Message-ID: On 9/8/10, William Donzelli wrote: >> The Dayton hamfest is far away and only affects a few people overlap-wise >> who'd have to choose. > > Do not underestimate the power of the Dayton Hamvention to suck away > people from other events. I see it here in the Northeast in the > hamfest season, and I used to see it when I did the hamfest scene back > around Chicago. Basically, no one is safe within a days drive. Dayton is close to me; NJ is far. I still see a friend from the Ice at Dayton most years. He drives in from NJ for it (and I know he's not alone). I would certainly be one of the folks affected by VCFeast being held in May (not that your other schedule conflicts aren't real and valid - just speaking for myself, I already have too much going on in May, every May, for a road trip to the East Coast). -ethan From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Sep 8 13:02:24 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 11:02:24 -0700 Subject: source for large capacity electrolytics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47980d823da11f2d2f93b34506660c0c@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Sep 8, at 1:01 AM, r.stricklin wrote: > The 5V rail in my Sun 2/120's PSU recently failed suddenly while the > system was running. No pop, but the rail measures out around 2.5VDC. I > believe I have tracked the fault down to one of a pair of 26000uF > electrolytics which are in parallel across the 5V output studs. These > are screw-lead, rated for 7.5V (12V surge), 85 deg. C, -10 +75% tol. > They are 1.375" dia, and 2.125" tall. Mechanically, there is no room > for anything even slighlty larger. > > Mouser stocks a part which is physically too tall---at 3.125", too > tall by an inch. This is a 10V (12V surge) part. They also stock a 50V > part from a different manufacturer which is even taller (>4"). There > are 10V (12V surge) parts that fit, but have too low a capacitance > (18000uF). There are 7.5V (9V surge) parts which will fit, but have > too high a capacitance (49000uF), and I'm not totally sure how to be > certain that a 9V surge rating is adequate in this application. How about using just one of those new 49000 uF units to replace both of the 26000 uF units (*2=52000 uF)? The 3000 uF diff isn't likely to matter, but it can be buffed up with a little 3000 uF cap in parallel if you feel compelled. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Sep 8 13:22:48 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 11:22:48 -0700 Subject: source for large capacity electrolytics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6197edf5d2980dcc1778015c8cf401fc@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Sep 8, at 1:01 AM, r.stricklin wrote: > > The 5V rail in my Sun 2/120's PSU recently failed suddenly while the > system was running. No pop, but the rail measures out around 2.5VDC. I > believe I have tracked the fault down to one of a pair of 26000uF > electrolytics which are in parallel across the 5V output studs. These > are screw-lead, rated for 7.5V (12V surge), 85 deg. C, -10 +75% tol. > They are 1.375" dia, and 2.125" tall. Mechanically, there is no room > for anything even slighlty larger. > > Mouser stocks a part which is physically too tall---at 3.125", too > tall by an inch. This is a 10V (12V surge) part. They also stock a 50V > part from a different manufacturer which is even taller (>4"). There > are 10V (12V surge) parts that fit, but have too low a capacitance > (18000uF). There are 7.5V (9V surge) parts which will fit, but have > too high a capacitance (49000uF), and I'm not totally sure how to be > certain that a 9V surge rating is adequate in this application. > Forgot to mention: considering the caps are on the output of the regulator, I would expect the 9V surge rating to be fine. If they were before the regulator it might be a greater concern. What is the basis for suspecting the caps? If they are dragging the 5V down to 2.5 they should be sucking a lot of current through the regulator and dissipating a lot of power themselves (heating up). From classiccmp at crash.com Wed Sep 8 14:01:32 2010 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2010 12:01:32 -0700 Subject: DEC/Compaq XP1000 can't see keyboard - ideas? Message-ID: <4C87DD8C.5050005@crash.com> I've recently received a Digital/Compaq XP1000 - 667MHz 21264 Alpha CPU, a mid-tower system nigh-identical to the Professional Workstation series (PWS 433/500/600). It came with 1G RAM and a PowerStorm 4D/20 PCI video card. I can access the SRM console through one of the serial ports, SRM version is V5.9-1. Unfortunately the machine refuses to recognize any keyboard I've tried. I've used the DEC LK411 off a working VT510, a spare LK411, an SGI PS/2 keyboard, and an IBM PS/2 Trackpoint keyboard. In all cases I get a message during POST that reads "No keyboard plugged in" before the "E8 ... E4" countdown. I've double-checked that I didn't have the mouse/keyboard ports backwards at various points. :) Just now I powered it up with the Trackpoint and I see all three status LEDs on the keyboard flash, then nothing. I get the "no keyboard" message and SRM prompt on the serial port. No output from the PowerStorm, and if I hit the CapsLock on the keyboard the LED does not light. A SHOW DEV on the console gives an appropriate-looking entry for a "vga0" device. A SHOW CONFIG gives a lot more output, including a "PowerStorm" device in slot 9 of hose 1, bus 2. However I have never gotten any output on the video card. I have not yet tried it in a PC. Any suggestions for what to try next? I'd like to have the option of running DECwindows... Thanks, /--/Steve. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 8 14:19:56 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2010 12:19:56 -0700 Subject: source for large capacity electrolytics In-Reply-To: <6197edf5d2980dcc1778015c8cf401fc@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <6197edf5d2980dcc1778015c8cf401fc@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4C877F6C.15468.7545BA@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Sep 2010 at 11:22, Brent Hilpert wrote: > What is the basis for suspecting the caps? If they are dragging the 5V > down to 2.5 they should be sucking a lot of current through the > regulator and dissipating a lot of power themselves (heating up). Don't know about the OP, but after a time, a lot of these caps just dry out and might as well be empty cans. I've got a couple of Lambda supplies like that--great 120Hz ripple, needing new computer-grade replacement caps. Something like 10,000 uF at 30V--not easy to find. --Chuck From fryers at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 15:01:48 2010 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 20:01:48 +0000 Subject: DEC/Compaq XP1000 can't see keyboard - ideas? In-Reply-To: <4C87DD8C.5050005@crash.com> References: <4C87DD8C.5050005@crash.com> Message-ID: On 8 September 2010 19:01, Steven M Jones wrote: [...] > Any suggestions for what to try next? I'd like to have the option of running > DECwindows... >>> set console graphics I think. The console may be set to the serial port in which case it will not display a lot on the screen. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From sellam at vintagetech.com Wed Sep 8 16:24:49 2010 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 14:24:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for GRiDlite, GRiDlite Plus or GRiDlite 1040 ($$$) Message-ID: Hello All! Hope everyone is well. I need a GRiDlite, GRiDlite Plus or GRiDlite 1040 for a short term project. I'm willing to buy or rent it. Has to be soon, or the opportunity shall pass. Inquire if you can assist. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From classiccmp at crash.com Wed Sep 8 16:33:48 2010 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2010 14:33:48 -0700 Subject: DEC/Compaq XP1000 can't see keyboard - ideas? In-Reply-To: References: <4C87DD8C.5050005@crash.com> Message-ID: <4C88013C.8000003@crash.com> Simon Fryer wrote: > >>>> set console graphics >>>> > > I think. The console may be set to the serial port in which case it > will not display a lot on the screen. > It's a good point, I had checked but didn't think to mention it -- when I type "SHOW CONSOLE" it prints out "console graphics". Came set that way. I assume I've got console output on the serial port because of the issue with the keyboard not being detected... Thanks, /--/Steve. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 8 16:23:01 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 22:23:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP-85 keycaps In-Reply-To: <4C871AAE.2090703@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Sep 7, 10 10:10:06 pm Message-ID: > > Hi all -- > > I've acquired an HP 85B computer in good working condition except for > two missing keycaps. Anyone happen to have spares? I need a "k8/k4" > key and a "comma" (numeric keypad) key. No, I don;t ahve any spares... But one thing to watch for on this design of keyboard [1] is that the keycaps become loose and fall off because of a ceack in the square tubualr key plunger. So you might want to replace that as well. Most of the time oyu cna still use the old plunger (the key doesn't stick down or anything), if you are careful about not losing keycaps. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 8 16:30:48 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 22:30:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: source for large capacity electrolytics In-Reply-To: <47980d823da11f2d2f93b34506660c0c@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Sep 8, 10 11:02:24 am Message-ID: > How about using just one of those new 49000 uF units to replace both of > the 26000 uF units (*2=52000 uF)? The 3000 uF diff isn't likely to > matter, but it can be buffed up with a little 3000 uF cap in parallel > if you feel compelled. I wouldn't think that 3000uF was necessary. Aluminium electrolytics are wide-tolerance devices at best, so that 49000 may be way off anyway (why isn't it a 47000, which is a prefered value, I wonder...) Which reminds me of what I call the 'silly capacitors' in HP machines. Things like 8100uF (why not 8200uF), 21000uF (why not 22000uF), and the classic of a PSU with both 5600uF and 6000uF devices on the same PCB... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 8 16:18:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 22:18:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: How to repair Tektronix 4696 inkjet and what to use for the In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Sep 7, 10 10:37:32 pm Message-ID: > > The maintenance fluid has me stumped, distilled water maybe? > > That might be it, or deionized (DI) water. I don't think it was alcohol. Do you still ahve any of it at all? If so : (a) any distintive smell? (b) Put some on a paper towel (you want a damp patch about 1" in diameter) hold a corner of the paper with pliers and set fire to it. Does the liquid prevent the paper burning (water will do this, obviously), or does it encourage the flames (many organic solvents)? Obviously do this outside and have a bucket of water handy to extinguish it. -tony From rmay635703a at yahoo.com Wed Sep 8 19:18:50 2010 From: rmay635703a at yahoo.com (Ry May) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 17:18:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to repair Tektronix 4696 inkjet and what to use for the cleaner fluid cartridge? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <363063.87016.qm@web113807.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Nope I don't have any of the fluid left, but it appears I "may" be able to order a cartridge online though its $51 refurbished and I have the feeling although listed likely would be canceled should I try and order one. ? Also $51 seems quite high, I think new they were in the $10-$20 area. ? Ah well? I will have to figure out how to dissassemble the thing to clean the heads and wells, I was told window cleaner does wonders. ? Cheers Ryan From rmay635703a at yahoo.com Wed Sep 8 19:38:12 2010 From: rmay635703a at yahoo.com (Ry May) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 17:38:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wanted any Wax thermal Supplies for Casi Futura 100 portrait booth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <88853.66291.qm@web113801.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Not sure if this is OT or not but my folks still use a 23 year old Color Computer Portrait system at fairs and we need ink and wax thermal Paper for our Shinko CHC 545 or Shinko CHC 445?we also have an old Panasonic Omniflex EPL-RAT unit and a Tektronix 4696 which I consider RIP.? If anyone here knows of anyone with old supplies laying around or where I might ask it would be appreciated.? I need both photo paper and T-shirt paper. (tektronix wax thermal supplies also seem to work, if they are for the ROLL wax thermal not stick)? Oddly enough our system was supported by Casi then QLT up until April 2000 (a long time I know) they released an HP 2000c printer driver for the unit and gave up.? Sadly the driver is crap, slow, inaccurate color,?unreliable and very low resolution compared to the Shinko 545 driver.? I often wondered if anyone could reprogram the 2000c driver with the Shinko dot pattern for better accuracy and speed?? The system is a Motorolla 68010 with 2mb system memory and 1mb video memory and Uses Innovion IDOS as the OS.? I can read and image the 720k floppies but don't have proper resources to know how to edit them effectively.? I had a little programming in high school and college but I would need a systematic method to approach this unit, I would love to be able to program it myself but never got to the point I could. ? Also the system saves photos to a floppy disk in 16bit targa format (not a dos disk though)? I can using a imaging program take the photo off, but sadly the pallette is completely wrong, I can tell who the people are but they are in psuido colors.? I often thought that might be a way for my folks to continue using their simple system then simply print the photo on a normal PC. ? http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=130698 ? Anyone want a free unit to play with to write a driver? I am located in central Wisconsin. Thanx Ryan May From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Sep 8 22:52:06 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 20:52:06 -0700 Subject: How to repair Tektronix 4696 inkjet and what to use for the In-Reply-To: References: from "Ethan Dicks" at Sep 7, 10 10:37:32 pm Message-ID: Or fire up the mass spectrometer you picked up on eBay (e.g. 290368922457).... :-) > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 2:18 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: How to repair Tektronix 4696 inkjet and what to use for > the > > > > The maintenance fluid has me stumped, distilled water maybe? > > > > That might be it, or deionized (DI) water. I don't think it was > alcohol. > > Do you still ahve any of it at all? If so : > > (a) any distintive smell? > > (b) Put some on a paper towel (you want a damp patch about 1" in > diameter) > hold a corner of the paper with pliers and set fire to it. Does the > liquid > prevent the paper burning (water will do this, obviously), or does it > encourage the flames (many organic solvents)? Obviously do this outside > and have a bucket of water handy to extinguish it. > > -tony From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Sep 8 23:18:42 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 00:18:42 -0400 Subject: How to repair Tektronix 4696 inkjet and what to use for thecleaner fluid cartridge? References: <363063.87016.qm@web113807.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <98C38E02ABED418698D280BCF9256746@dell8300> Is that what they look like (used but cheap) http://www.kpsurplus.com/tektronix-4696-maint-cartridge-016-0838-00.html . Is that realy an inkjet and not some solid ink printer? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ry May" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 8:18 PM Subject: Re: How to repair Tektronix 4696 inkjet and what to use for thecleaner fluid cartridge? Nope I don't have any of the fluid left, but it appears I "may" be able to order a cartridge online though its $51 refurbished and I have the feeling although listed likely would be canceled should I try and order one. Also $51 seems quite high, I think new they were in the $10-$20 area. Ah well I will have to figure out how to dissassemble the thing to clean the heads and wells, I was told window cleaner does wonders. Cheers Ryan From evan at snarc.net Wed Sep 8 23:38:45 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2010 00:38:45 -0400 Subject: Yet another IEEE archive article request Message-ID: <4C8864D5.6060404@snarc.net> Research request: can someone with IEEE Xplore access please send me this article: http://tinyurl.com/254do4q Thanks. - Evan* * From spedraja at ono.com Thu Sep 9 00:56:29 2010 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 07:56:29 +0200 Subject: Yet another IEEE archive article request In-Reply-To: <4C8864D5.6060404@snarc.net> References: <4C8864D5.6060404@snarc.net> Message-ID: I can try later. Regards Sergio 2010/9/9 Evan Koblentz > Research request: can someone with IEEE Xplore access please send me this > article: http://tinyurl.com/254do4q > > Thanks. > - Evan* > * > From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 06:47:42 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 07:47:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RRD40 was :Re: Why CD carriers? was: Wanted: DEC RRD50 CD-ROM Manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Sep 2010, Charles Dickman wrote: > The RRD40 that I have was given to me so that I could learn the way of the > VAX and VMS. I have since found other CD drives that understand the special > way of reading the short CD sectors. DEC, SGI and perhaps others relied on CD drives that could think in terms of 512-byte sectors. "Back in the day" (late 80s - early 90s) many SCSI drives had a dedicated jumper for sector size. Seemed to be most common on NEC units. -- From harten at injectstar.de Wed Sep 8 07:07:12 2010 From: harten at injectstar.de (Harten) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2010 13:07:12 +0100 Subject: DiscFerret update: PCB done! In-Reply-To: <4C853B7A.8060102@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C81685E.13782.2C632DA@cclist.sydex.com> <4C840C37.9080306@gmail.com> <4C853B7A.8060102@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <1b06865351.harten@injectstar.de> In message <4C853B7A.8060102 at philpem.me.uk> you wrote: > At the moment, the biggest problem is that the %#$!ing Elektor PCB > Service just charged my card for 100 Euros, the payment went through and > the website now says "There was an unknown error with your payment!". > The 'contact us' link which is SUPPOSED to be there.... isn't. And email > doesn't work (apparently). So I have a pro-forma invoice, a Receipt > Number, and a website that insists I haven't paid when I couldn't > possibly have #2 without having paid first... Ho hum. > Hi! Why not using a professional company for making your PCB, where you can ask, if everything is o.k. with the layout-data. We do business with EPN (www.epn.de) since 1998 and are fully satisfied. Axel Harten. From john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Wed Sep 8 15:40:20 2010 From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (John S) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 20:40:20 +0000 Subject: Microwriter MW4 help Message-ID: >> I recently obtained a Microwriter with an LCD display. >> >> Else it may be faulty >> I found Tony's post from 2009 asking for a 'good' EPROM image maybe >> mine is failing in a similar way. Tony wrote: > FWIW, I am still stuck... I am pretty sure the Firmware EPROM in mine is > corrupted, some 'chords' do not produce the characters I would expect My one can generate all the letters, numbers and punctuation marks so fingers crossed the EPROM is OK. > IIRC, the EPROM is a 25C64 (which is slightly different to the more common > 27C64). If you have a programmer capable of reading out that device, it > would be interesting to compare the ROM in mine with it. OK, I'll try and read the EPROM. This might take me some time, but I am keen to do it as there is very little technical stuff about the MW4 on line. I might try and disassemble the code too (but I don't think IDA has a 1802 option!) Regards, John From nick.allen at comcast.net Wed Sep 8 16:22:51 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2010 16:22:51 -0500 Subject: Help Identifying this Engineering/Mainframe panel Message-ID: <4C87FEAB.9010000@comcast.net> Ok I am stumped, I just acquired what I believe to be a Engineering/Mainframe Control Panel, but I can't find a model number, manufacture or any documentation on it. Anyone recognize this panel, or what it might have be used on? http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs303.ash2/58384_429250116851_530841851_5533769_6685015_n.jpg From nick.allen at comcast.net Wed Sep 8 16:26:51 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2010 16:26:51 -0500 Subject: For sale: Some DEC stuff In-Reply-To: <4C402ED5.5000309@hachti.de> References: <4C402ED5.5000309@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4C87FF9B.6010800@comcast.net> I am very interested, what are you asking for both (in US dollars)? Also, can you please send me some photos? Thnx! you can reply to: nick dot allen at comcast dot net From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Sep 9 01:41:13 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 02:41:13 -0400 Subject: Toshiba 3100/20 References: Message-ID: <3216F09773D94222B39402815EC99DFA@vl420mt> > Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 11:19:47 -0500 (CDT) > From: Richard Schauer > Subject: Re: Toshiba 3100/20 > > On Tue, 31 Aug 2010, Martin.Stransky at emerson.com wrote: >> I need to read data from my friend's old Toshiba PC with HDD 26 pin >> connector. I would need to know what are the signals, or what is the >> adapter. > > Even though I know that this guy probably isn't a classiccmp member, just > replying to some message he found from who knows when, I'll echo his > question. I have one of these too, and they seem to have trouble with the > power supplies in them (not the external brick, the internal one). It's > at least partly related to the fishy SMT capacitor problem; I've replaced > all of them in mine. > > I have some data stored on the hard drive that I'd like to get; of course > it's a neat computer too, that I'd like to have running (there's a reason > the data is on the drive!) The connector isn't 26 pins as he says, > though, it's 44 pins. There's a common fine-pitch connector used on > laptop IDE drives that's 44 pins- this isn't it. It's just like the 2x20 > .100 spacing 40-pin IDE connector, but 2x22. The drive is a JVC with a > model number I don't have in front of me, that doesn't seem to be used > much of anywhere else. Googling it comes up with a couple of people > wanting to sell me one, but nothing else. > > Any ideas? It'd be nice if the connector was just IDE with power tacked > on one end. > > Thanks, > Richard Schauer > KF9VP -------------------- Sorry, can't help but that's interesting... I'd always thought that the 3100/20 used that 26-pin interface, but maybe there's more than one version; I've got a 3100/40 which uses a normal IDE interface. On the other hand, I have a 3200 which does use the 26-pin version while someone on another forum says that his has a normal ST-506 ST-125. And now you come along with a 44-pin connector... Is there a separate power connector? I had heard that the 3100/20 had a non-standard implementation of the ST-506 (MFM) interface; perhaps that's the 44-pin version, and the 26-pin version is an early IDE interface. They are neat computers, but assuming it's still working I'd get that data off ASAP, using the serial port or diskettes... Anybody else out there that can shed some light? mike From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Sep 9 02:31:30 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 00:31:30 -0700 Subject: Help Identifying this Engineering/Mainframe panel In-Reply-To: <4C87FEAB.9010000@comcast.net> References: <4C87FEAB.9010000@comcast.net> Message-ID: <03282907268583d07a58dd033802db12@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Sep 8, at 2:22 PM, Nick Allen wrote: > Ok I am stumped, I just acquired what I believe to be a > Engineering/Mainframe Control Panel, but I can't find a model number, > manufacture or any documentation on it. Anyone recognize this panel, > or what it might have be used on? > > http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs303.ash2/ > 58384_429250116851_530841851_5533769_6685015_n.jpg Holy smokes. It would be interesting to see a photo sufficiently large to read the labeling, for some of us just out of interest, but it might also provides leads as to what it was used in. From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Thu Sep 9 02:31:57 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 17:31:57 +1000 Subject: Looking for GRiDlite, GRiDlite Plus or GRiDlite 1040 ($$$) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I cannot help with your request, but if people are generally thinking about GRiDs they have I am looking for copies of GRiDBASIC and GRiDTerm and any other software, documentation, product details anyone might know or have. My efforts so far are linked off this page: http://www.retrocomputingtasmania.com/home/projects/grid The linked Google document is somewhat chaotic since most of the information has been scraped off archive.org (waybackmachine) or extracted from the defunct GRiD forum (http://www.pd.com/GRiDpage.html) and the Yahoo group (http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RuGRiD-Laptop). From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Sep 9 02:32:29 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2010 03:32:29 -0400 Subject: Help Identifying this Engineering/Mainframe panel In-Reply-To: <03282907268583d07a58dd033802db12@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4C87FEAB.9010000@comcast.net> <03282907268583d07a58dd033802db12@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4C888D8D.6060508@gmail.com> Brent Hilpert wrote: >> Ok I am stumped, I just acquired what I believe to be a >> Engineering/Mainframe Control Panel, but I can't find a model number, >> manufacture or any documentation on it. Anyone recognize this panel, >> or what it might have be used on? >> >> http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs303.ash2/58384_429250116851_530841851_5533769_6685015_n.jpg >> > > Holy smokes. > > It would be interesting to see a photo sufficiently large to read the > labeling, for some of us just out of interest, but it might also > provides leads as to what it was used in. Well, it appears that the registers are 36-bits wide, if that's a hint. Peace... Sridhar From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Sep 9 02:35:45 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2010 08:35:45 +0100 Subject: Toshiba 3100/20 In-Reply-To: <3216F09773D94222B39402815EC99DFA@vl420mt> References: <3216F09773D94222B39402815EC99DFA@vl420mt> Message-ID: <4C888E51.9050702@dunnington.plus.com> MikeS wrote: > I'd always thought that the 3100/20 used that 26-pin interface, but maybe > there's more than one version; I've got a 3100/40 which uses a normal IDE > interface. I /think/ the original 3100/20 used a proprietary 26-pin interface and the 3100e/20 used something more like standard IDE. There definitely is more than one version. I recall a 44-pin interface which was IDE plus power, but not sure if that's what's in the 3100e. It should be fairly easy to check with a VOM, though. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Sep 9 07:04:01 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2010 13:04:01 +0100 Subject: Microwriter MW4 help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C88CD31.2000806@philpem.me.uk> On 08/09/10 21:40, John S wrote: > I might try and disassemble the code too (but I don't think IDA has a 1802 option!) I'm pretty sure it does -- it certainly has 6502 and Z80. You might need the "Advanced" licence to get the additional CPU modules, though. If not, you could always try DASMx -- -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Thu Sep 9 07:16:33 2010 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 13:16:33 +0100 Subject: 8088 CPU tester module Message-ID: Folks, In digging out some old Apple stuff last night I came across a module for a CPU testing machine I had years ago. It was a black IBM compatible PC called either an AMS3000, MSA3000 or MST3000 (I can't help but think of MST3K on that one though :)) with an EISA interface that allowed a connection to one of many CPU module testers, at the time I had an 8008, 68000, z80 etc - host adapters that you connected over an in-place CPU module. This module is for an 8088, is in its box and is heavy. Does anyone remember it or even want it before I recycle? Cheers -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home?computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Sep 9 07:58:17 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 08:58:17 -0400 Subject: Help Identifying this Engineering/Mainframe panel In-Reply-To: <4C87FEAB.9010000@comcast.net> References: <4C87FEAB.9010000@comcast.net> Message-ID: > ?Ok I am stumped, I just acquired what I believe to be a > Engineering/Mainframe Control Panel, but I can't find a model number, > manufacture or any documentation on it. Anyone recognize this panel, or what > it might have be used on? Did this panel come from somewhere down south, perhaps near Atlanta? -- Will From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Sep 9 08:55:08 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 06:55:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Encoding cassette data... Message-ID: This is a fantastic read: http://dabeaz.blogspot.com/2010/08/using-python-to-encode-cassette.html The guy wrote a Python script to encode KCS audio in order to load software into his Super Board II via his Mac. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Sep 9 09:28:10 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 10:28:10 -0400 Subject: Encoding cassette data... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/9/10, Gene Buckle wrote: > > This is a fantastic read: > http://dabeaz.blogspot.com/2010/08/using-python-to-encode-cassette.html > > The guy wrote a Python script to encode KCS audio in order to load > software into his Super Board II via his Mac. That's really cool. My first thought after reading it is what it would take to implement the Commodore tape scheme (since I really don't have any Kansas City Standard machines but I do have a pile of C= gear). -ethan From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Sep 9 09:32:33 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 07:32:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Encoding cassette data... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Sep 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 9/9/10, Gene Buckle wrote: >> >> This is a fantastic read: >> http://dabeaz.blogspot.com/2010/08/using-python-to-encode-cassette.html >> >> The guy wrote a Python script to encode KCS audio in order to load >> software into his Super Board II via his Mac. > > That's really cool. My first thought after reading it is what it > would take to implement the Commodore tape scheme (since I really > don't have any Kansas City Standard machines but I do have a pile of > C= gear). That's a cool idea Ethan. I suspect the resulting script would also have to tokenize the program during the audio stream creation. I bet the VICE guys know what the audio format is. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Sep 9 09:41:51 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 10:41:51 -0400 Subject: Encoding cassette data... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/9/10, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Thu, 9 Sep 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On 9/9/10, Gene Buckle wrote: >>> http://dabeaz.blogspot.com/2010/08/using-python-to-encode-cassette.html >> >> That's really cool. My first thought after reading it is what it >> would take to implement the Commodore tape scheme (since I really >> don't have any Kansas City Standard machines but I do have a pile of >> C= gear). > > That's a cool idea Ethan. I suspect the resulting script would also have > to tokenize the program during the audio stream creation. If you wanted to take an ASCII file containing a BASIC program, yes, but not if you had real C= files sitting around on the disk (binary or tokenized BASIC). Personally, I do a lot of cross-assembly work on UNIX-y platforms (edit on large screen, compile on the local OS, test in VICE), so tokenization isn't all that relevant to what I do. > I bet the VICE guys know what the audio format is. I'm sure they do, and there's documentation and discussions elsewhere as well (zimmers.net, cbm-hackers mailing list, the code and docs for the C2N232, etc). -ethan From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Sep 9 10:03:20 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 08:03:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Encoding cassette data... In-Reply-To: from Gene Buckle at "Sep 9, 10 07:32:33 am" Message-ID: <201009091503.o89F3KGc017404@floodgap.com> > > don't have any Kansas City Standard machines but I do have a pile of > > C= gear). > > That's a cool idea Ethan. I suspect the resulting script would also have > to tokenize the program during the audio stream creation. I bet the VICE > guys know what the audio format is. The Commodore tape format is very well documented and would probably be even easier since it's just pulses. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Flat text is just *never* what you want. -- stephen p spackman ------------- From roosmcd at dds.nl Thu Sep 9 11:10:29 2010 From: roosmcd at dds.nl (Michiel) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2010 18:10:29 +0200 Subject: Subject: Looking for GRiDlite, GRiDlite Plus or GRiDlite 1040 ($$$) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C8906F5.5070903@dds.nl> > Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 14:24:49 -0700 (PDT) > From: Sellam Ismail > Subject: Looking for GRiDlite, GRiDlite Plus or GRiDlite 1040 ($$$) > Hello All! > > Hope everyone is well. > > I need a GRiDlite, GRiDlite Plus or GRiDlite 1040 for a short term > project. I'm willing to buy or rent it. > > Has to be soon, or the opportunity shall pass. > > Inquire if you can assist. > > Thanks! > > I can offer a Philips PC200 (which would be a rebadged GRiD XT) with a broken power supply (but it also has a DC input). Or maybe somebody else would be interested? Any offers welcome,otherwise I'm afraid it is going to be thrashed sometime soon. It's the machine in the 21st image in: http://www.computermuseumgroningen.nl/philips/philips.html (not my machine btw) with regards, Michiel (located in the Netherlands) From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 9 11:20:58 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2010 09:20:58 -0700 Subject: Subject: Looking for GRiDlite, GRiDlite Plus or GRiDlite 1040 ($$$) In-Reply-To: <4C8906F5.5070903@dds.nl> References: , <4C8906F5.5070903@dds.nl> Message-ID: <4C88A6FA.14464.A9903@cclist.sydex.com> I sold a Gridlite 1040 a couple of years ago. I can provide the name of the buyer if it helps. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 9 11:28:56 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2010 09:28:56 -0700 Subject: Microwriter MW4 help In-Reply-To: <4C88CD31.2000806@philpem.me.uk> References: , <4C88CD31.2000806@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C88A8D8.31099.11E1C2@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Sep 2010 at 13:04, Philip Pemberton wrote: > I'm pretty sure it does -- it certainly has 6502 and Z80. You might > need the "Advanced" licence to get the additional CPU modules, though. Nope--here's the list: http://www.hex-rays.com/idapro/idaproc.htm But the 1802 is so simple, writing a disassembler shouln't take more than an afternoon. IDA also has a processor SDK available for the "roll your own" crowd. --Chuck From evan at snarc.net Thu Sep 9 13:44:46 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2010 14:44:46 -0400 Subject: Yet another IEEE archive article request In-Reply-To: <4C8864D5.6060404@snarc.net> References: <4C8864D5.6060404@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4C892B1E.8040204@snarc.net> > Research request: can someone with IEEE Xplore access please send me > this article: http://tinyurl.com/254do4q > > Thanks. > - Evan Got it now -- thanks cctalkers! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 9 13:10:30 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 19:10:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Microwriter MW4 help In-Reply-To: from "John S" at Sep 8, 10 08:40:20 pm Message-ID: > > > >> I recently obtained a Microwriter with an LCD display.=20 > >>=20 > >> Else it may be faulty > >> I found Tony's post from 2009 asking for a 'good' EPROM image maybe=20 > >> mine is failing in a similar way. > > Tony wrote: > > FWIW=2C I am still stuck... I am pretty sure the Firmware EPROM in mine i= > s=20 > > corrupted=2C some 'chords' do not produce the characters I would expect=20 > > My one can generate all the letters=2C numbers and punctuation marks so fin= > gers crossed the EPROM is OK. Excellent. If you ever do manage to read it out, I would be interested in a copy... > > OK=2C I'll try and read the EPROM. This might take me some time=2C but I am= > keen to=20 Certainly no hurry this end. I have (literally) hundreds of projects to be going on with... > do it as there is very little technical stuff about the MW4 on line. I can supply a reverse-engineered schematic of the MW4 if you want it. Alas I don't ahve scanner, so I would have to send you it on paper.. > > I might try and disassemble the code too (but I don't think IDA has a 1802 = > option!) I have the 1820 instruction set description, etc, if you need that. Writing a simple disassembler (i.e. one that doesn't try to make any sense of the code it's disassembling) is a fairly easy task, even I can manage it, and I'm no programmer. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 9 13:12:48 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 19:12:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP-85 keycaps In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Sep 8, 10 10:23:01 pm Message-ID: > > > > > Hi all -- > > > > I've acquired an HP 85B computer in good working condition except for > > two missing keycaps. Anyone happen to have spares? I need a "k8/k4" > > key and a "comma" (numeric keypad) key. > > No, I don;t ahve any spares... But one thing to watch for on this design > of keyboard [1] is that the keycaps become loose and fall off because of > a ceack in the square tubualr key plunger. So you might want to replace > that as well. Most of the time oyu cna still use the old plunger (the key > doesn't stick down or anything), if you are careful about not losing keycaps. Sorry, forgot the footnote last night... [1] Also used on the DEC VT50 series, DEC VT100 series, HP80 series (AFAIK, all models), HP262x terminals, HP120 (?), HP9816, TI99/4A, eraly TRS-80 Model 1, etc, etc, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 9 13:17:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 19:17:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: How to repair Tektronix 4696 inkjet and what to use for the In-Reply-To: from "Ian King" at Sep 8, 10 08:52:06 pm Message-ID: > > Or fire up the mass spectrometer you picked up on eBay (e.g. 290368922457). > ... :-) =20 Err, yes... But not everybody is lucky enough to have one... More seriosuly, there is a worrying tendency in all sorts of areas to throw a complex solution at a problem rather than actually thinking about the problem. As a book I've been reading says 'There is no shortage of information, but people don't know how to THINK anymore'. It worries me... And to be honest, even if I was going to tuse a mass-spec for this, I would still try some simple tests (such aas those I suggested first), so I can see if the results from the complicated machine make sense -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 9 14:01:57 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 20:01:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Olivetti JP101 ink cartridges? Message-ID: Since we are discussing obscure printer consumables... I have just bought an Olvetti JP101 on E-bay. This is the 'sparkjet' printer that was sold in the mid-1980s. It was commonly used over here with the BBC micro, and I beelive an Acorn-badged version existed. Mine has the Olivetti nameplate. One problem (and I knew this before bidding, I am not complaining) is that the ink cartridges for it are unobtainable. The machine came with a nearly-new one in it, and 2 brand new spares ,so I can at least try it out. But when i've used those up, nothing... The ink cartridge is a glass tube tapered to form a jet at the front end. It contains a solid ink with a compression spring [1] behind it which also acts as an eleectrical conenction to the rear metal end cap. Thetube is fitted in a little plastic holder. It clips into the printer carriage, an high voltage is applied between the ink (via the end cap and spring) and a metal paper guide. The resulting spark transfers some ink to the paper (note that the sparrk does not attempt to pass through the paper, and the paper is not special in any way. It's a pity the cartridges are unobtainalbe, since apart from the HV transformer module (which also contains at least one rectifier diode and maybe a limiting resisotr), the mains transformer (which is not likely to fail) and a programmed 2764 EPROM, all the other electornic compoents are standard (Z80 CPU, Z80 CTC, TTL chips, etc) and easy to get. The mechanism is pretty well made too, and looks easy to keep going. Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to make ink cartridges for this machine? -tony From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Sep 9 15:09:50 2010 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 16:09:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Bell & Howell II+ Message-ID: Does anyone have a good feel for the current market value of a Bell & Howell II+? Model is A2S1016B, serial #A2S3-000985 with disk drive, paddles, manuals, cassette player, cassettes and floppies. Unknown working condition. Installed boards are ROM Card, Disk II Interface, plus a Sup "R" Mod II. This isn't mine, but the owner contacted me asking what it might be worth. I haven't paid any attention to Ebay prices on these, but it looks like a generic Apple II+ might fetch $150 or more. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From halarewich at gmail.com Thu Sep 9 16:38:33 2010 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 14:38:33 -0700 Subject: Olivetti JP101 ink cartridges? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: acording to this site ther are avail http://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=http://www.monclick.it/schede/olivetti/83550/83550.htm&ei=C1KJTL7sH476sAOiq72xBA&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBsQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dolivetti%2B83550%26hl%3Den On 9/9/10, Tony Duell wrote: > > Since we are discussing obscure printer consumables... > > I have just bought an Olvetti JP101 on E-bay. This is the 'sparkjet' > printer that was sold in the mid-1980s. It was commonly used over here > with the BBC micro, and I beelive an Acorn-badged version existed. Mine > has the Olivetti nameplate. > > One problem (and I knew this before bidding, I am not complaining) is > that the ink cartridges for it are unobtainable. The machine came with a > nearly-new one in it, and 2 brand new spares ,so I can at least try it > out. But when i've used those up, nothing... > > The ink cartridge is a glass tube tapered to form a jet at the front end. > It contains a solid ink with a compression spring [1] behind it which > also acts as an eleectrical conenction to the rear metal end cap. Thetube > is fitted in a little plastic holder. It clips into the printer carriage, > an high voltage is applied between the ink (via the end cap and spring) > and a metal paper guide. The resulting spark transfers some ink to the > paper (note that the sparrk does not attempt to pass through the paper, > and the paper is not special in any way. > > It's a pity the cartridges are unobtainalbe, since apart from the HV > transformer module (which also contains at least one rectifier diode and > maybe a limiting resisotr), the mains transformer (which is not likely to > fail) and a programmed 2764 EPROM, all the other electornic compoents are > standard (Z80 CPU, Z80 CTC, TTL chips, etc) and easy to get. The > mechanism is pretty well made too, and looks easy to keep going. > > Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to make ink cartridges for > this machine? > > -tony > > From coredump at gifford.co.uk Thu Sep 9 16:54:01 2010 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2010 22:54:01 +0100 Subject: Olivetti JP101 ink cartridges? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C895779.7080505@gifford.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to make ink cartridges for > this machine? Given that description, and the fact that you have three cartridges, surely the best way is to re-fill the one(s) that you've got? In which case, the question is really "what's special about that ink?" It must be conductive, for one. Lots of carbon black in it? -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Sep 9 18:17:01 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 16:17:01 -0700 Subject: How to repair Tektronix 4696 inkjet and what to use for the In-Reply-To: References: from "Ian King" at Sep 8, 10 08:52:06 pm Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 11:18 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: How to repair Tektronix 4696 inkjet and what to use for > the > > > > > Or fire up the mass spectrometer you picked up on eBay (e.g. > 290368922457). > > ... :-) =20 > > Err, yes... But not everybody is lucky enough to have one... > > More seriosuly, there is a worrying tendency in all sorts of areas to > throw a complex solution at a problem rather than actually thinking > about > the problem. As a book I've been reading says 'There is no shortage of > information, but people don't know how to THINK anymore'. It worries > me... > > And to be honest, even if I was going to tuse a mass-spec for this, I > would still try some simple tests (such aas those I suggested first), > so > I can see if the results from the complicated machine make sense > Um, it was a joke. (Checking: yes, I did remember the smiley.) I guess I'll THINK before I offer a humorous comment here again.... From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 9 20:36:59 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2010 19:36:59 -0600 Subject: How to repair Tektronix 4696 inkjet and what to use for the In-Reply-To: References: from "Ian King" at Sep 8, 10 08:52:06 pm Message-ID: <4C898BBB.3080400@jetnet.ab.ca> Ian King wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell >> Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 11:18 AM >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: How to repair Tektronix 4696 inkjet and what to use for >> the >> >>> >>> Or fire up the mass spectrometer you picked up on eBay (e.g. >> 290368922457). > > Um, it was a joke. (Checking: yes, I did remember the smiley.) > > I guess I'll THINK before I offer a humorous comment here again.... > Well use a bigger smiley, most people here are behind rocks,big iron or computer screens. I expect with this group to have the odd rare bit of lab equipment. Ben. PS. Or the computer from such a beast. :) From rws at ripco.com Thu Sep 9 22:12:10 2010 From: rws at ripco.com (Richard Schauer) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 22:12:10 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Toshiba 3100/20 In-Reply-To: <4C888E51.9050702@dunnington.plus.com> References: <3216F09773D94222B39402815EC99DFA@vl420mt> <4C888E51.9050702@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Sep 2010, Pete Turnbull wrote: > MikeS wrote: > >> I'd always thought that the 3100/20 used that 26-pin interface, but maybe >> there's more than one version; I've got a 3100/40 which uses a normal IDE >> interface. > > I /think/ the original 3100/20 used a proprietary 26-pin interface and the > 3100e/20 used something more like standard IDE. There definitely is more > than one version. I recall a 44-pin interface which was IDE plus power, but > not sure if that's what's in the 3100e. It should be fairly easy to check > with a VOM, though. Aw crap. This is what I get for writing from work from memory- my machine is the 3100SX, not the 3100/20. Similar-looking laptop with a plasma screen, but 386-based instead of 286. The hard drive in it is a JVC JDE3896V10-1; the only connector on it is the 44-pin one, marked ISA I/F. The little 44-pin laptop connector is indeed just IDE plus power; they sell cheap little adapters on Ebay to hook up to standard. This isn't one of those; it's a header with "rectangular" pin spacing- between pins in a row it's the usual .100, but between rows it's less. It mates to a 3M #50144 connector, which Digikey says has .075 row spacing. The only obvious pin is a big ground trace on pin 26. Perhaps it has the same pinout- IDE on the first 40 pins, power on the next two, and ground on the last two. Richard Schauer KF9VP From jws at jwsss.com Thu Sep 9 05:29:47 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2010 03:29:47 -0700 Subject: How to repair Tektronix 4696 inkjet and what to use for thecleaner fluid cartridge? In-Reply-To: <98C38E02ABED418698D280BCF9256746@dell8300> References: <363063.87016.qm@web113807.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <98C38E02ABED418698D280BCF9256746@dell8300> Message-ID: <4C88B71B.8040704@jwsss.com> On 9/8/2010 9:18 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > Is that what they look like (used but cheap) > http://www.kpsurplus.com/tektronix-4696-maint-cartridge-016-0838-00.html > . > Is that realy an inkjet and not some solid ink printer? > Ted, From what I could read on the somewhat blurry photo, the instructions have many cautions about fluid on the cartridge shown. I don't know what a Maintenance cartridge is either. It may be that the thing is inserted and consumed cleaning the system, but the instructions sound like it is a supply cartridge of some sort. Perhaps the cycle of the printer draws on this in addition to ink supply cartridges. At any rate, it certainly is dealing with fluid, not solid. Jim From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Sep 9 06:06:39 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 07:06:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC/Compaq XP1000 can't see keyboard - ideas? In-Reply-To: <4C88013C.8000003@crash.com> References: <4C87DD8C.5050005@crash.com> <4C88013C.8000003@crash.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Sep 2010, Steven M Jones wrote: > It's a good point, I had checked but didn't think to mention it -- when I > type "SHOW CONSOLE" it prints out "console graphics". Came set that > way. I assume I've got console output on the serial port because of the issue > with the keyboard not being detected... You may want to keep trying different PS2 keyboards. My PC64 is _extremely_ fussy about which ones it will operate with. I think they cut the timing margins too close on some of the DEC Alpha systems. -- From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Thu Sep 9 09:57:17 2010 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 15:57:17 +0100 Subject: Help Identifying this Engineering/Mainframe panel In-Reply-To: <4C87FEAB.9010000@comcast.net> References: <4C87FEAB.9010000@comcast.net> Message-ID: <92E6D177427344B4844777CF7F27F642@xp32vm> > Ok I am stumped, I just acquired what I believe to be a > Engineering/Mainframe Control Panel, but I can't find a model number, > manufacture or any documentation on it. Anyone recognize this panel, or > what it might have be used on? > > http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak- > ash2/hs303.ash2/58384_429250116851_530841851_5533769_6685015_n.jpg It appears to be from the family of machines that originated with the GE535 (and GE 645 original Multics), became Honeywell 600 series, became Honeywell 6000 series, became Honeywell Level 66, became Bull DPS8. I can be confident of that much. It is almost identical to the CPU control panel from the Level-66 machines I remember except that ISTR they were black not white. With a better photo (higher resolution) I could confirm that it was a CPU panel, but probably not the model number as several models shared the same control panel. I see on http://www.multicians.org/multics-stories.html that the CPU panel for a 6180 (Multics) looks very similar, possibly identical. Andy From lee_courtney at acm.org Thu Sep 9 16:38:56 2010 From: lee_courtney at acm.org (Lee Courtney (ACM)) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 14:38:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP3000 Videos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <423695.78469.qm@web35308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have posted a couple (very low production value) videos of a Classic early-1980s HP3000 on Youtube: 1. System power up and CMP commands - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45hQS877UfY 2. Diagnostic Utility System (DUS) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq_eyOG7QQA Enjoy! Lee Courtney From nick.allen at comcast.net Thu Sep 9 21:23:00 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2010 21:23:00 -0500 Subject: Help Identifying this Engineering/Mainframe panel Message-ID: <4C899684.7010801@comcast.net> Here are some close up photos, thanks everyone for your help =) http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=213052&id=530841851&l=714eeedccd From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri Sep 10 03:00:29 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 01:00:29 -0700 Subject: Free: HP 264X terminal boards... Message-ID: <4C89E59D.8050208@mail.msu.edu> Hi all -- Doing some cleaning, I came across a box containing a number of old HP boards. I've had these a long time -- I think someone gave them to me when I was still in high school. Based on a cursory search of the 'net, these look like they possibly belong to an HP terminal, of the 264X family. (see pics: here http://www.hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?hwimg=240) I don't own an HP 264X terminal, so I obviously have no need of these -- maybe you do? They're in decent, but not great shape. Obviously I've no idea if they work. If anyone wants them, you can have 'em for the cost of shipping. Drop me a line. The boards I have are labeled in the upper-left corner thusly: 02640-60192 CONTROL MEMORY (these have what appear to be ROM chips) 02640-69192 CONTROL MEMORY 02640-60209 PROCESSOR - contains an AMD fabbed 8080 processor w/hp PN 1820-1701... 02640-69124 DMA 02640-69112 DSPLY CNTL 02640-60125 GRAPHICS M-CONTROLLER 02640-69126 GRAPHICS DISPLAY PCA 02640-60171 UNIVERSAL MEMORY PCA - Josh From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Sep 10 03:16:28 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 10:16:28 +0200 Subject: Help Identifying this Engineering/Mainframe panel In-Reply-To: <4C899684.7010801@comcast.net> References: <4C899684.7010801@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20100910081628.GA13337@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Sep 09, 2010 at 09:23:00PM -0500, Nick Allen wrote: > Here are some close up photos, thanks everyone for your help =) > > http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=213052&id=530841851&l=714eeedccd Excuse the french, but where the heck did you find that? That is a museum piece. Kind regards, Pontus From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Sep 10 08:05:00 2010 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 09:05:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HP3000 Videos In-Reply-To: <423695.78469.qm@web35308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <423695.78469.qm@web35308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Sep 2010, Lee Courtney (ACM) wrote: > I have posted a couple (very low production value) videos of a Classic > early-1980s HP3000 on Youtube: > > 1. System power up and CMP commands - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45hQS877UfY > 2. Diagnostic Utility System (DUS) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq_eyOG7QQA > > Enjoy! Oh, I did! Thanks for posting those - I used to work on the 3000 systems in '86-'88, everything from the Series III to the Series 70. I'd like to get my hands on something like a Series 42, some day. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Sep 10 08:26:08 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 06:26:08 -0700 Subject: Help Identifying this Engineering/Mainframe panel In-Reply-To: <20100910081628.GA13337@Update.UU.SE> References: <4C899684.7010801@comcast.net>,<20100910081628.GA13337@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: > From: pontus at Update.UU.SE > > On Thu, Sep 09, 2010 at 09:23:00PM -0500, Nick Allen wrote: > > Here are some close up photos, thanks everyone for your help =) > > > > http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=213052&id=530841851&l=714eeedccd > > Excuse the french, but where the heck did you find that? That is a > museum piece. > > Kind regards, > Pontus I love those drums. Those look like they are for instruction decoding and such. Dwight From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 09:24:29 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 10:24:29 -0400 Subject: Help Identifying this Engineering/Mainframe panel In-Reply-To: <20100910081628.GA13337@Update.UU.SE> References: <4C899684.7010801@comcast.net> <20100910081628.GA13337@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: > Excuse the french, but where the heck did you find that? That is a > museum piece. I think this panel used to belong to a friend of mine, Marty, who a few month back, fell to cancer. He lived in Atlanta - thus my (unanswered) question about where it came from. I would be very pleased if this was indeed his panel, as it would mean that his estate may be being handled properly. The older ham radio crowd can be very dense when it comes to the value of old computers (sometimes I think they *want* old computers to be worthless), so hopefully the guys dealing or advising Marty's estate are a little more on the ball. Not trashing this panel is a good sign. Hopefully they did not sell it to you for ten bucks. Marty collected all sorts of things, mostly ham radios, but with a few other goodies. He was an early Sun employee, and had a good pile of old Suns, with probably more Sun-1 equipment that anyone on the planet. I am hoping that the estate people have figured this out - those machines are probably worth more than his entire radio collection. Anyway, I remember his panel, and neither of us could make out what machine it was from. He valued it highly. -- Will From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Fri Sep 10 09:31:29 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 07:31:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Happy 26th for the Mac 512k In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <7535.19531.qm@web113503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://8bitaficionado.com/?p=47 From ragooman at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 09:49:33 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 10:49:33 -0400 Subject: Happy 26th for the Mac 512k In-Reply-To: <7535.19531.qm@web113503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <7535.19531.qm@web113503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 10:31 AM, Christian Liendo < christian_liendo at yahoo.com> wrote: > http://8bitaficionado.com/?p=47 > > interesting, nice touch gggrrr, I don't see the Amiga anniv on there :) =Dan From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Fri Sep 10 10:00:01 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 08:00:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Happy 26th for the Mac 512k Message-ID: <768754.23611.qm@web113509.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Well,, The Amiga was released on July 24.. I kinda missed that.. In fact I was in Louisiana working on the Oil Spill with the Coast Guard so I couldn't get the blog running at that time. --- On Fri, 9/10/10, Dan Roganti wrote: > interesting, nice touch > > gggrrr, I don't see the Amiga anniv on there :) > > =Dan > From ragooman at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 10:13:17 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 11:13:17 -0400 Subject: Happy 26th for the Mac 512k In-Reply-To: <768754.23611.qm@web113509.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <768754.23611.qm@web113509.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: --- On Fri, 9/10/10, Dan Roganti wrote: > > interesting, nice touch > > > > gggrrr, I don't see the Amiga anniv on there :) > > > > =Dan > > > On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 11:00 AM, Christian Liendo < > christian_liendo at yahoo.com> wrote: > Well,, The Amiga was released on July 24.. I kinda missed that.. In fact I > was in Louisiana working on the Oil Spill with the Coast Guard so I couldn't > get the blog running at that time. > > > I knew that. a belated one doesn't hurt, especially since it's the silver anniv =Dan --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 10:44:07 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 10:44:07 -0500 Subject: Help Identifying this Engineering/Mainframe panel In-Reply-To: <4C8A30C7.7000806@comcast.net> References: <4C89EE23.9000709@jwsss.com> <4C8A30C7.7000806@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 8:21 AM, Nick Allen wrote: > ?I have uploaded to picasa in their original FULL resolution =) > > http://picasaweb.google.com/NeXTprototype/MainframePanel?authkey=Gv1sRgCMvG1bHlqo3iyAE# > > Thanks again everyone, this is only my second day on the classiccmp lists, > and you have all been so helpful and quick to reply! I think the most important question still left unasked is: are you bringing it to VCF-MW? ;) -- j From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 10 10:44:27 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 08:44:27 -0700 Subject: Help Identifying this Engineering/Mainframe panel In-Reply-To: References: <4C899684.7010801@comcast.net> <20100910081628.GA13337@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4C8A525B.4060302@bitsavers.org> On 9/10/10 7:24 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > He was an early Sun employee, and had a good pile of > old Suns, with probably more Sun-1 equipment that anyone on the > planet. I am hoping that the estate people have figured this out I think Bear Stricklin acquired the Suns. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 11:41:18 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:41:18 -0400 Subject: Help Identifying this Engineering/Mainframe panel In-Reply-To: <4C8A525B.4060302@bitsavers.org> References: <4C899684.7010801@comcast.net> <20100910081628.GA13337@Update.UU.SE> <4C8A525B.4060302@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > I think Bear Stricklin acquired the Suns. OK, good news. I got some private emails confirming that the Suns were saved. -- Will From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 10 12:11:25 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 10:11:25 -0700 Subject: Help Identifying this Engineering/Mainframe panel In-Reply-To: References: <4C899684.7010801@comcast.net> <20100910081628.GA13337@Update.UU.SE> <4C8A525B.4060302@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4C8A66BD.6040606@bitsavers.org> On 9/10/10 9:41 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I think Bear Stricklin acquired the Suns. > > OK, good news. I got some private emails confirming that the Suns were saved. > Also, I'm guessing the panel is 36-bit Honeywell 6000-series, based on the industrial design and bit count. From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri Sep 10 12:51:09 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 10:51:09 -0700 Subject: Claimed - Free: HP 264X terminal boards... In-Reply-To: <4C89E59D.8050208@mail.msu.edu> References: <4C89E59D.8050208@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4C8A700D.8030203@mail.msu.edu> Evidently a lot of people need spares, judging by the number of repsonses I've gotten in the last 10 hours :). Suffice it to say, these boards have been claimed... Thanks, Josh On 9/10/2010 1:00 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > Doing some cleaning, I came across a box containing a number of old HP > boards. I've had these a long time -- I think someone gave them to me > when I was still in high school. Based on a cursory search of the > 'net, these look like they possibly belong to an HP terminal, of the > 264X family. (see pics: here > http://www.hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?hwimg=240) > > I don't own an HP 264X terminal, so I obviously have no need of these > -- maybe you do? They're in decent, but not great shape. Obviously > I've no idea if they work. If anyone wants them, you can have 'em for > the cost of shipping. Drop me a line. > > The boards I have are labeled in the upper-left corner thusly: > > 02640-60192 CONTROL MEMORY (these have what appear to be ROM chips) > 02640-69192 CONTROL MEMORY > 02640-60209 PROCESSOR - contains an AMD fabbed 8080 processor w/hp PN > 1820-1701... > 02640-69124 DMA > 02640-69112 DSPLY CNTL > 02640-60125 GRAPHICS M-CONTROLLER > 02640-69126 GRAPHICS DISPLAY PCA > 02640-60171 UNIVERSAL MEMORY PCA > > - Josh > > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 10 13:17:05 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 11:17:05 -0700 Subject: ST-412 interface MFM drives over on Erik's VCF Message-ID: <4C8A13B1.20665.6A5938@cclist.sydex.com> I know that some folks are on the prowl for the Maxtor XT-2190 and XT- 1140 big MFM drives. There's a fellow from New Jersey who's selling a couple on Erik's VCF: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?21977 --Chuck From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Fri Sep 10 13:29:04 2010 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 20:29:04 +0200 Subject: How to repair Tektronix 4696 inkjet and what to use for Message-ID: <20100910182904.127890@gmx.net> jim s wrote: > On 9/8/2010 9:18 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > > Is that what they look like (used but cheap) > > http://www.kpsurplus.com/tektronix-4696-maint-cartridge-016-0838- 00.html > > . > > Is that realy an inkjet and not some solid ink printer? > > > > Ted, > From what I could read on the somewhat blurry photo, the instructions > have many cautions about fluid on the cartridge shown. I don't know > what a Maintenance cartridge is either. It may be that the thing is > inserted and consumed cleaning the system, but the instructions sound > like it is a supply cartridge of some sort. Perhaps the cycle of the > printer draws on this in addition to ink supply cartridges. > > At any rate, it certainly is dealing with fluid, not solid. > Jim >From some discussion fragments I found on fixyourownprinter, the 4696 is a "real" (liquid) ink printer, since people talk about using conventional inkjet refill ink in the ink wells and flushing/cleaning out the ink lines. The link to the picture above didn't work for me, but I found the article in KP Surplus' eBay shop. Putting the maintenance cartridge P/N into a search machine took me to http://hazard.com/msds/f2/blx/blxkp.html, which has the MSDS for the fluid and also states the composition: DIETHYLENE GLYCOL MONOETHYL ETHER, Fraction by Wt: 20%; TETRASODIUM ETHYLENE DIAMINE TETRAACETATE, Fraction by Wt: 0.3%; WATER, Fraction by Wt: 79.7% The term "Maintenance cartridge" was known to me from the manuals of the later Tek/Xerox "Phaser" series solid ink printers, since I have a Phaser 340 standing in the basement since last year. I think the name refers to the fact that it has to be changed as a part of regular maintenance; it has however to be installed all the time for the printer to operate. In these printers, the maintenance cartridge applies a clear oily fluid from a plastic bag to the surface of a heated metal drum by means of a felt pad. This serves as a sort of anti-stick coating for the ink (think "fuser oil") because the image is first printed to the surface of the drum to be transferred onto the paper or film later. There is some sort of MSDS buried in the appendix of the Phaser 340 User's Manual which indicates that the fluid in the maintenance cartridge is silicone oil (Polydimethylsiloxane, CAS Number: 63148-62-9). Mostly harmless: "Hazards: ... Ingestion: Swallowing large amounts could cause discomfort. ... No first aid should be needed." The usage counter on the maintenance cartridge is realised by a spindle driven from the printer mechanism by gears and a moving block which hits a mechanical switch when the cartridge is supposed to be depleted. ISTR there is some sort of anti-windback device but nothing that looks impossible to overcome. The bag even has a thermo-sealed filling line attached to it which could be used to replenish it. So long, Arno -- Achtung Sicherheitswarnung: GMX warnt vor Phishing-Attacken! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/sicherheitspaket From bear at typewritten.org Fri Sep 10 14:01:43 2010 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:01:43 -0700 Subject: Help Identifying this Engineering/Mainframe panel In-Reply-To: <4C8A525B.4060302@bitsavers.org> References: <4C899684.7010801@comcast.net> <20100910081628.GA13337@Update.UU.SE> <4C8A525B.4060302@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1B656C4E-46BF-4724-8810-FC4D029328BA@typewritten.org> On Sep 10, 2010, at 8:44 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 9/10/10 7:24 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> He was an early Sun employee, and had a good pile of >> old Suns, with probably more Sun-1 equipment that anyone on the >> planet. I am hoping that the estate people have figured this out > > I think Bear Stricklin acquired the Suns. I did. More were found later, and went to a different collector. I will let him speak up if he chooses. ok bear From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 10 13:49:03 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 19:49:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Olivetti JP101 ink cartridges? In-Reply-To: from "Chris Halarewich" at Sep 9, 10 02:38:33 pm Message-ID: > > acording to this site ther are avail > > http://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=http://www.monclick.it/schede/olivetti/83550/83550.htm&ei=C1KJTL7sH476sAOiq72xBA&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBsQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dolivetti%2B83550%26hl%3Den Ah, thanks for that. The sites in English that I found all said that this cartridge was no longer avaiable. I am a little wary of sending money to a web site i na language I don't understnat -- Google translate is good, but it's not perfect, and I am always worried I will miss some important condition. But anyway... However, given that they have only a few in stock, my guess is they are no longer manufactuered, and this is old stock. Nohing wrong with that (solid ink shouldn't deteriorate), but getting them is only going to delay the problem of having to make or refill them. So I may as well think about that too.. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 10 13:54:46 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 19:54:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Olivetti JP101 ink cartridges? In-Reply-To: <4C895779.7080505@gifford.co.uk> from "John Honniball" at Sep 9, 10 10:54:01 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to make ink cartridges for > > this machine? > > Given that description, and the fact that you have three cartridges, > surely the best way is to re-fill the one(s) that you've got? In I would agree, if I can get them apart non-destructively. The metal cap on the back end is crimped on (like an old milk bottle cap, but thicker metal). I may have to cut theat off and make a repalcement. I do not want to break the glass tube, although it may not be too hard to make a replacement for that either. > which case, the question is really "what's special about that ink?" > It must be conductive, for one. Lots of carbon black in it? A friend driected me to US patent 4332487. This is clearly not the same printer, but the principles are the same The ink is indeed conductive, and is indeed mostly carbon (95%). Various binders are suggested, no details of shick one is used are given. I wonder what pencil 'lead' would do here... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 10 13:55:40 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 19:55:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: How to repair Tektronix 4696 inkjet and what to use for the In-Reply-To: from "Ian King" at Sep 9, 10 04:17:01 pm Message-ID: > Um, it was a joke. (Checking: yes, I did remember the smiley.) =20 Err, yes, but many a true word is spoken in jest... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 10 14:02:09 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 20:02:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: How to repair Tektronix 4696 inkjet and what to use for the In-Reply-To: <4C898BBB.3080400@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben" at Sep 9, 10 07:36:59 pm Message-ID: > > Ian King wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > >> Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 11:18 AM > >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> Subject: Re: How to repair Tektronix 4696 inkjet and what to use for > >> the > >> > >>> > >>> Or fire up the mass spectrometer you picked up on eBay (e.g. > >> 290368922457). > > > > > Um, it was a joke. (Checking: yes, I did remember the smiley.) > > > > I guess I'll THINK before I offer a humorous comment here again.... > > > > Well use a bigger smiley, most people here are behind rocks,big iron > or computer screens. I expect with this group to have the odd rare > bit of lab equipment. Oh, I have one, but it's only a little 1cm radius one, designed mainly for detecting the helium peak when looking for leaks. What I don't have is a suitable vacuum pump (yet...) > Ben. > PS. Or the computer from such a beast. :) No computers in mine. In fact no ICs that I rememebr. Just a handful of discrete transsitors and a few valves... -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 16:55:09 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 17:55:09 -0400 Subject: Help Identifying this Engineering/Mainframe panel In-Reply-To: <1B656C4E-46BF-4724-8810-FC4D029328BA@typewritten.org> References: <4C899684.7010801@comcast.net> <20100910081628.GA13337@Update.UU.SE> <4C8A525B.4060302@bitsavers.org> <1B656C4E-46BF-4724-8810-FC4D029328BA@typewritten.org> Message-ID: > I did. More were found later, and went to a different collector. I will let him speak up if he chooses. Well, I am pleased as punch that the stuff did not get trashed. As I responded in a private message: > That is a pretty large cache of Sun-1 class > gear. If there was more, I don't know any more about it. I remember one time I was there, or rather at his "business", and he just kept pointing the stuff out. "Oh, there's another one...". Cripes! -- Will From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Sep 10 16:57:05 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 22:57:05 +0100 Subject: How to repair Tektronix 4696 inkjet and what to use for In-Reply-To: <20100910182904.127890@gmx.net> References: <20100910182904.127890@gmx.net> Message-ID: <4C8AA9B1.2040906@philpem.me.uk> On 10/09/10 19:29, Arno Kletzander wrote: > There is some sort of MSDS buried in the appendix of the Phaser 340 > User's Manual which indicates that the fluid in the maintenance > cartridge is silicone oil (Polydimethylsiloxane, CAS Number: > 63148-62-9). Mostly harmless: "Hazards: ... Ingestion: Swallowing > large amounts could cause discomfort. ... No first aid should be > needed." A while ago, someone related a story to me about the solid ink sticks for the Phasers. At the time, Tek were making the solid ink blocks from natural products, and they reckoned that they were completely harmless if ingested. During a demonstration at a trade show, a high-ranking Tek executive picks up a solid ink block...... And eats it. The whole damn thing. From what I was told, half of the audience looked on in absolute incredulity, while the other half were contemplating calling an ambulance for the guy... The story I was told has a happy ending -- the executive survived with no ill effects. Does anyone know if there's any truth behind this story? -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 17:07:55 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 18:07:55 -0400 Subject: How to repair Tektronix 4696 inkjet and what to use for In-Reply-To: <4C8AA9B1.2040906@philpem.me.uk> References: <20100910182904.127890@gmx.net> <4C8AA9B1.2040906@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On 9/10/10, Philip Pemberton wrote: > A while ago, someone related a story to me about the solid ink sticks > for the Phasers. At the time, Tek were making the solid ink blocks from > natural products, and they reckoned that they were completely harmless > if ingested. During a demonstration at a trade show, a high-ranking Tek > executive picks up a solid ink block...... > > And eats it. > > The whole damn thing. I googled for pix - some of those blocks are larger than a bar of soap! > From what I was told, half of the audience looked on in absolute > incredulity, while the other half were contemplating calling an > ambulance for the guy... The story I was told has a happy ending -- the > executive survived with no ill effects. > > Does anyone know if there's any truth behind this story? It's mentioned on Wikipedia, so it's obviously a "well known" story (the article mentions a vegetable oil base). Substantiation, though, is another matter. I'm curious too. -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Fri Sep 10 17:09:05 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 16:09:05 -0600 Subject: Help Identifying this Engineering/Mainframe panel In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 10 Sep 2010 17:55:09 -0400. Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > I remember one time I was there, or rather at his "business", and he > just kept pointing the stuff out. "Oh, there's another one...". > Cripes! Disturbingly enough, I think there's more than a few members of this list that could give you a replay of that experience :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Sep 10 18:38:59 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 16:38:59 -0700 Subject: How to repair Tektronix 4696 inkjet and what to use for In-Reply-To: References: <20100910182904.127890@gmx.net> <4C8AA9B1.2040906@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: From: Ethan Dicks Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 3:08 PM > On 9/10/10, Philip Pemberton > wrote: >> During a demonstration at a trade show, a high-ranking Tek >> executive picks up a solid ink block...... >> And eats it. >> The whole damn thing. I googled for pix - some of those blocks are larger than a bar of soap! >> From what I was told, half of the audience looked on in absolute >> incredulity, while the other half were contemplating calling an >> ambulance for the guy... The story I was told has a happy ending -- the >> executive survived with no ill effects. >> Does anyone know if there's any truth behind this story? > It's mentioned on Wikipedia, so it's obviously a "well known" story > (the article mentions a vegetable oil base). Substantiation, though, > is another matter. > I'm curious too. Sequel to "I Am Curious--Yellow", right? Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 19:13:57 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 20:13:57 -0400 Subject: How to repair Tektronix 4696 inkjet and what to use for In-Reply-To: References: <20100910182904.127890@gmx.net> <4C8AA9B1.2040906@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On 9/10/10, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Ethan Dicks >> I'm curious too. > > Sequel to "I Am Curious--Yellow", right? Wouldn't it be "I Am Curious Cyan, Magenta, Yellow and Black"? -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 10 19:26:37 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 17:26:37 -0700 Subject: How to repair Tektronix 4696 inkjet and what to use for In-Reply-To: References: <20100910182904.127890@gmx.net>, , Message-ID: <4C8A6A4D.2223.1BCAAA7@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Sep 2010 at 20:13, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 9/10/10, Rich Alderson wrote: > > Sequel to "I Am Curious--Yellow", right? > > Wouldn't it be "I Am Curious Cyan, Magenta, Yellow and Black"? Ugh. You're reminding me of a bad stock investment I made in Grove Press, the publisher of the thing. --Chuck From nick.allen at comcast.net Fri Sep 10 08:21:11 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 08:21:11 -0500 Subject: Help Identifying this Engineering/Mainframe panel In-Reply-To: <4C89EE23.9000709@jwsss.com> References: <4C89EE23.9000709@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4C8A30C7.7000806@comcast.net> I have uploaded to picasa in their original FULL resolution =) http://picasaweb.google.com/NeXTprototype/MainframePanel?authkey=Gv1sRgCMvG1bHlqo3iyAE# Thanks again everyone, this is only my second day on the classiccmp lists, and you have all been so helpful and quick to reply! From nick.allen at comcast.net Fri Sep 10 12:06:27 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:06:27 -0500 Subject: Help Identifying this Engineering/Mainframe panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C8A6593.40305@comcast.net> Yes, this from Marty's estate! I personally drove from Chicago to Atlanta and purchased his estate of IMSAI's, an altair, a PET 2001, and this panel. The Sun 1 went to Bear as stated (good for him, lucky dog!). I wish I could have met Marty, I heard alot of stories, and he seems like someone I would have enjoyed. I am glad we are getting close to identifying this panel, it has been very difficult on my own to dig up and information. Thanks again everyone! From jws at jwsss.com Fri Sep 10 03:36:51 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 01:36:51 -0700 Subject: Help Identifying this Engineering/Mainframe panel In-Reply-To: <4C87FEAB.9010000@comcast.net> References: <4C87FEAB.9010000@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4C89EE23.9000709@jwsss.com> On 9/8/2010 2:22 PM, Nick Allen wrote: > Ok I am stumped, I just acquired what I believe to be a > Engineering/Mainframe Control Panel, but I can't find a model number, > manufacture or any documentation on it. Anyone recognize this panel, > or what it might have be used on? > > http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs303.ash2/58384_429250116851_530841851_5533769_6685015_n.jpg > > > Nick, I forwarded the information to Tom VanVleck who owns the multics site, so he can ask the hardware people he knows. I wonder if you could post your higher resolution photos at full quality on a flickr account, or picassa, so the originals were available. Facebook craps on the quality of what otherwise were good photos, so I always post links for stuff I care about. The CHM has at least the IOM of a Multics system, maybe the entire thing. I am sure it is stored in an inaccessible fashion during construction which is underway, but checking there would be good next year to compare with their system cabinets. The Multics Operator Guide describes how to Bootload multics. When the step dealing with the cpu is reached. (you have to set up the tape drive first, then the IOM) the switch that makes everything go is "Initialize" See page 88 of the manual (in the pdf) or 11-3 if you like the manual's page numbers. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/honeywell/multics/GB61-01B_OperatorsGde_Dec87.pdf in #3 of 5 photos you have on facebook there is a toggle on the left side top of the DISPLAY panel marked "Initalize & Clear", which is another term in the manual. I can't read enough of the other terms on the panel this time of night (vision getting blurry for the night) to look in the manual for register terms. As I said I'd like the real deal, not the mangled facebook version of the photos. Jim From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Fri Sep 10 04:24:09 2010 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 10:24:09 +0100 Subject: Help Identifying this Engineering/Mainframe panel In-Reply-To: <92E6D177427344B4844777CF7F27F642@xp32vm> References: <4C87FEAB.9010000@comcast.net> <92E6D177427344B4844777CF7F27F642@xp32vm> Message-ID: <1BB3FFA59CE647D7B991B03B88C4016C@xp32vm> On Thu, Sep 09, 2010 at 09:23:00PM -0500, Nick Allen wrote: > Here are some close up photos, thanks everyone for your help =) > > http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=213052&id=530841851&l=714eeedccd Right, I think the top line "Segment Number" switches confirms it as a Multics machine, not a GCOS 3 one. ((and yes, it is the panel from a CPU)) It's just the sort of item a systems programmer or Engineer would "acquire" as a souvenir when the system was scrapped. One of my former colleagues has probably still got the corresponding panel from a Level 66/60 machine attached to his office wall. Andy From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Fri Sep 10 10:27:07 2010 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 16:27:07 +0100 Subject: Help Identifying this Engineering/Mainframe panel In-Reply-To: References: <4C899684.7010801@comcast.net><20100910081628.GA13337@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4943B7EFDD6944289F02DD3CFB47235A@xp32vm> . > > I think this panel used to belong to a friend of mine, Marty, who a > few month back, fell to cancer. He lived in Atlanta - thus my > (unanswered) question about where it came from. ... > > Anyway, I remember his panel, and neither of us could make out what > machine it was from. He valued it highly. > Looking on the Multicians site (www.multicians.org) I discover that of the 84 known Multics sites, one was in Atlanta: Southern Company Services, Inc. (Atlanta GA) (2 L68, 4 MSU0451, 4 MSU0501) [1982 - ?] (those codes translate to two CPUs). The only other Multics sites vaguely near Atlanta were both in Tennessee. Andy From jws at jwsss.com Fri Sep 10 11:42:40 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 09:42:40 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Re: multics (possibly) front panel or 6180 Message-ID: <4C8A6000.5000704@jwsss.com> Tom has seen a large share of Multics front panels, and here is his reply. Nick, I can put you in touch, or you can contact the webmaster at multicians.org (that is him) for further investigation. Thanks for putting up the photos full resolution. Jim -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: multics (possibly) front panel or 6180 Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 08:05:58 -0400 From: Tom Van Vleck <> To: Jim Stephens It is clearly a maintenance panel from a 6000 series. Since it says "APU" on the top and "PTW" and "SDW" it looks like a Multics machine. I agree we should find out more. regards, tom On Sep 10, 2010, at 4:40 AM, jim s wrote: > Is this possibly a 6000 series "front" panel? It certainly looks like that. > > Hopefully it is viewable from the links w/o facebook if you don't have it. > > http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=213052&id=530841851&l=714eeedccd > > Also this photo > http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs303.ash2/58384_429250116851_530841851_5533769_6685015_n.jpg > > > it looks like one of the panels in this photo on the multicians site. > > http://www.multicians.org/multics-stories.html > > If so, sort of makes me sad. > > This is from a classic computing collectors site. > > It really looks promising. The fellow with the item is in Illinois. > Jim From nick.allen at comcast.net Fri Sep 10 12:30:26 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:30:26 -0500 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <4C87FEAB.9010000@comcast.net> References: <4C87FEAB.9010000@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4C8A6B32.2090408@comcast.net> So, I acquired a Xerox Alto II XM several months ago, I am still in SHOCK that I am the proud new owner of the Alto, but I still have yet to get it operational. Does anyone here have working knowledge that can help me troubleshoot the Alto (possibly even video chat with me on skype). Also, I am thinking of insuring the Alto, does anyone have ANY clue on the value of a Xerox Alto II XM (I know they are EXTREMELY RARE, however I don't think I have ever heard of any selling at auction, therefore no idea of the value)? From philpem at philpem.me.uk Fri Sep 10 15:40:33 2010 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 21:40:33 +0100 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: References: <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4C577605.2070700@atarimuseum.com> <4C7DFA40.9070404@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C8A97C1.8020702@philpem.me.uk> On 01/09/10 14:28, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Wed, 1 Sep 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> Acorn for the win! :) >> > You're nuts. :) That's funny, my shrink says the same thing. You two would probably get on like a house on fire :) -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From nick.allen at comcast.net Fri Sep 10 17:26:03 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 17:26:03 -0500 Subject: Help Identifying this Engineering/Mainframe panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C8AB07B.8030503@comcast.net> Subject: Re: [multicians] hardware maintenance panel Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 15:18:50 -0400 From: Chris Jones <> On 09/10/2010 02:11 PM, John W Gintell wrote: > > > It must be a Multics machine - I don't think any other architecture had > 36 bit words, segment numbers, PTWs and SDWs. I don't recognize it > though. I'd guess it is an 8/70M because it looks pretty modern, but > perhaps it was something built for testing. It sure looks to me like the Level 68 CPU maintenance panel we had at CISL (for most of my time there we had a Level 68 CPU and a DPS-80/70M CPU). As I recall, the DPS 8 panel was black and didn't have as many switches or lights, depending more on a Level 6 maintenance processor to provide many of the same functions. I always thought the Level 68 panel was the greatest computer panel I ever saw, but I'm a sucker for switches and "blinkenlights". Sorry I can't give many details on its operation. I do recall it was one of a pair on the inside of the doors of the CPU (but we usually kept the doors open to expose the full glory of the panel). I think this was the right hand panel; the left panel might have been called the display panel rather than the maintenance panel, but don't quote me. That one we usually kept displaying the EAQ registers, and you could watch the "worm" of the idle loop scroll in a circle to get an idea of how busy the machine was or whether it was hung (REAL experts could watch the pattern of lights as the system booted and pick out where in that process the system was, or if it had hung). From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 06:54:25 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 08:54:25 -0300 Subject: How to repair Tektronix 4696 inkjet and what to use for References: <20100910182904.127890@gmx.net> <4C8AA9B1.2040906@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <015e01cb51ab$29ea75c0$0600000a@portajara> > A while ago, someone related a story to me about the solid ink sticks for > the Phasers. At the time, Tek were making the solid ink blocks from > natural products, and they reckoned that they were completely harmless if > ingested. During a demonstration at a trade show, a high-ranking Tek > executive picks up a solid ink block...... > And eats it. > The whole damn thing. Hum, so he became a human printer, doing colorful things on the bathroom? Man, I could spend hours making countless jokes about this event :oD From als at thangorodrim.de Sat Sep 11 11:02:17 2010 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 18:02:17 +0200 Subject: Why CD carriers? was: Wanted: DEC RRD50 CD-ROM Manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100911160217.GA26094@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Tue, Sep 07, 2010 at 06:32:36PM -0400, Charles Dickman wrote: > What was the reason for the carriers used on first generation CD-ROM drives? I guess the idea was to protect the media from damage, as data disks are far more sensitive to errors than audio disk ("can't read file" versus a short noise pulse). > My first CD-ROM drive cost about $800, but it included an encyclopedia. :-) > It used the "standard carrier". > > I have a Pinnacle RCD-1000 disk burner that also uses the same carrier. I > remember that it was attached to an IBM PC-AT or something close and that we > basically turned out the lights in the room so as not to disturb it during a > burn. > > The audio drives used the drawer. I know the error correction is better on > the audio disk than the data disks, It isn't. CD-ROMs add another layer of error correction on top of what is already used for audio CDs, so the error correction for CD-ROMs is better. However, audio CDs are far less troubled by errors - at worst, you'll hear some annoying sound artefacts from the damaged sectors, whereas with a CD-ROM data errors means that you can't read (parts of) the afflicted file or directory. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Sep 11 13:32:53 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 20:32:53 +0200 Subject: Availeble Barcrest CPU and ROM boards Message-ID: <000a01cb51df$c255a260$4700e720$@xs4all.nl> I suppose this is on topic, I got a few (5) Barcrest CPU boards and ROM modules. If someone needs them contact me off-list. Items are located in the Netherlands. -Rik From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Sep 11 13:33:21 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 20:33:21 +0200 Subject: OT: Akai VT-100 video tapes Message-ID: <000f01cb51df$d0050d60$700f2820$@xs4all.nl> A small OT question is there someone on the list who can digitize Akai VT-100 video tapes. I'm asking this in behalf of the owner of the tapes and a non-working VT-100 system. I suppose the tapes are PAL because the owner of them lives in the Netherlands. The digitizer can have the system if he likes. -Rik From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Sep 11 13:41:42 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 11:41:42 -0700 Subject: Why CD carriers? was: Wanted: DEC RRD50 CD-ROM Manuals In-Reply-To: <20100911160217.GA26094@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <20100911160217.GA26094@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4C8BCD66.3020208@brouhaha.com> Charles Dickman wrote: > I know the error correction is better on > the audio disk than the data disks, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > It isn't. CD-ROMs add another layer of error correction on top of what is > already used for audio CDs, so the error correction for CD-ROMs is better. Only for Yellow Book Mode 1 or Mode 2 form 1. Mode 2 form 2 does not have L3 error correction. Admittedly Mode 2 is extremely rare now. > However, audio CDs are far less troubled by errors - at worst, you'll hear > some annoying sound artefacts from the damaged sectors, whereas with a > CD-ROM data errors means that you can't read (parts of) the afflicted file > or directory. It's more complicated than that. While CD-Audio (Red Book) doesn't have the L3 error correction of CDs, it does still have interleave, so defects beyond the correction capability of the L1+L2 error correction will almost never drop two consecutive samples. There may, however, be runs in which every other sample is missing. In this case, the player uses "error concealment" by interpolating between the samples to either side of the missing one(s). This results in a momentary drop in the audio bandwidth, but is usually not noticeable. When there are errors that result in multiple consecutive lost samples, the player will mute the audio, which was considered to be less unpleasant than playing digital noise. However, when there are rapidly alternating segments of good samples and multiple consecutive lost samples, it can end up sounding like digital nose anyhow. Eric From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Sep 11 14:04:34 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 12:04:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Why CD carriers? In-Reply-To: <4C8BCD66.3020208@brouhaha.com> References: <20100911160217.GA26094@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4C8BCD66.3020208@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20100911114848.D45062@shell.lmi.net> CD-ROMs were EXPENSIVE! For years, the price of them was so high that institutional purchases would typically dedicate an entire PC as a player for each one. (PCs were more expensive then, also). In those days, I compared that practice to buying a movie projector for each film purchased. I remember buying a used CD-ROM play only drive for $300. I remember when the first under $2000 writer (1X) came out. But, I didn't buy one until they got down to $300. Mad a lot of coasters - the success rate was under 25% For many years, I lusted after a Qubik (sp?). That was a changer designed by Keith Henson, that had a rotating carousel style tray holding 240? CD-ROMs, mounted in a square box with from 1 to 4 drives in the corners. (SCSI drive(s), RS232 control of the changer) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Sep 11 18:44:21 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 16:44:21 -0700 Subject: Commodore PETs, SGI Personal IRIS & More @ RE-PC in Tukwila Message-ID: <4C8C1455.5020502@mail.msu.edu> Just a heads up -- dropped by RE-PC in Tukwila today to recycle a few things (nothing classic, I assure you!) and they had a lot of cool old stuff for the first time in awhile; not the best prices but I thought I'd let you guys know, just in case. - They have several PETs -- 2 or 3 8032s and a couple of 2001s (none with chicklet keyboards, alas). Prices were between $100 and $200. They all appeared to be described as "not working" but were in good cosmetic condition. - There's an SGI Personal IRIS 4D/25. Looks to be complete, with tape drive & hard drive. $90, unfortunately... - An Intertec Intertube II terminal, marked as "not working", $35 - A Data I/O 120A gang EEPROM programmer. Kinda neat, a bit big for my tastes, though. $50. - A Franklin ACE 1000, good condition, $16. Probably a few other things that have slipped my mind, but those are the major ones... - Josh From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Sep 11 19:47:21 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 17:47:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: imaging multi-session CDs Message-ID: <201009120047.o8C0lLN6020696@floodgap.com> What are people using to make images of multi-session CDs? I have a lot of old Mac games I'm trying to image and store that have both audio and data sessions (in fact, this was pretty common). I can certainly rip them separately, but it would be nice to be able to hold them in a single archive, preferably something Toast or Disk Utility can burn. Any suggestions? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Everyone is entitled to my opinion. -- James Carpenter --------------------- From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Sat Sep 11 21:18:53 2010 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 11:48:53 +0930 Subject: imaging multi-session CDs In-Reply-To: <201009120047.o8C0lLN6020696@floodgap.com> References: <201009120047.o8C0lLN6020696@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <1284257933.1435.3.camel@fubar> On Sat, 2010-09-11 at 17:47 -0700, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > What are people using to make images of multi-session CDs? I have a lot of > old Mac games I'm trying to image and store that have both audio and data > sessions (in fact, this was pretty common). I can certainly rip them > separately, but it would be nice to be able to hold them in a single archive, > preferably something Toast or Disk Utility can burn. Any suggestions? > Try cdrao. http://cdrdao.sourceforge.net/ It won't create a single file but it will retain all of the information about the disc. Alexis. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Sep 12 10:27:29 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 08:27:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C8A97C1.8020702@philpem.me.uk> References: <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4C577605.2070700@atarimuseum.com> <4C7DFA40.9070404@philpem.me.uk> <4C8A97C1.8020702@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Sep 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 01/09/10 14:28, Gene Buckle wrote: >> On Wed, 1 Sep 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: >>> Acorn for the win! :) >>> >> You're nuts. :) > > That's funny, my shrink says the same thing. You two would probably get on > like a house on fire :) > Yeah, right up to the point where he saw the inside of my workshop, then we'd be padded-cell mates. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Sep 12 10:36:45 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 11:36:45 -0400 Subject: imaging multi-session CDs References: <201009120047.o8C0lLN6020696@floodgap.com> <1284257933.1435.3.camel@fubar> Message-ID: <297F9E127C534CB699C19BBBD6AE6935@dell8300> Padus Discjuggler was used back when people ripped Dreamcast CD's to get both the data and audio tracks. It would be for the PC and I forget if the audio tracks were separate or not. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alexis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 10:18 PM Subject: Re: imaging multi-session CDs > On Sat, 2010-09-11 at 17:47 -0700, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> What are people using to make images of multi-session CDs? I have a lot >> of >> old Mac games I'm trying to image and store that have both audio and data >> sessions (in fact, this was pretty common). I can certainly rip them >> separately, but it would be nice to be able to hold them in a single >> archive, >> preferably something Toast or Disk Utility can burn. Any suggestions? >> > > Try cdrao. http://cdrdao.sourceforge.net/ > > It won't create a single file but it will retain all of the information > about the disc. > > Alexis. > From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun Sep 12 12:52:37 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 19:52:37 +0200 Subject: HP 9845 replacement ROM boards Message-ID: <000601cb52a3$4d531af0$e7f950d0$@xs4all.nl> The rom's on my HP 9845B are getting unstable when the machine is heating up, they're giving errors. Ansgar Kueckes from www.hp9845.net has a very nice solution, the design for a replacement board using flash memory. It includes the pcb desing, I asked him permission to use his design and produce a certain amount of PCB's and to sell them for cost price to other collectors. He agreed, the more I order the cheaper the price will be, so who wants a PCB for his HP 9845 ? More info on the project at : http://www.hp9845.net/9845/projects/romboard/ If you're interested let me know off-list -Rik From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Sun Sep 12 13:58:18 2010 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 20:58:18 +0200 Subject: How to repair Tektronix 4696 inkjet and what to use for Message-ID: <20100912185818.37510@gmx.net> Philip Pemberton wrote: > During a demonstration at a trade show, a high-ranking Tek > executive picks up a solid ink block...... > > And eats it. > > The whole damn thing. It's certainly widely known, but with some differences. From the description I read of the incident when I googled stuff about my then-new printer, the person just took a bite off the ink block. The Wikipedia entry on "Solid Ink" also uses the wording "...ate part of a stick...", which IMHO is a bit more credible than the other version. So long, Arno -- GMX DSL SOMMER-SPECIAL: Surf & Phone Flat 16.000 f?r nur 19,99 Euro/mtl.!* http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl From RichA at vulcan.com Sun Sep 12 14:02:27 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 12:02:27 -0700 Subject: Help Identifying this Engineering/Mainframe panel In-Reply-To: <4C89EE23.9000709@jwsss.com> References: <4C87FEAB.9010000@comcast.net> <4C89EE23.9000709@jwsss.com> Message-ID: From:jim s Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 1:37 AM > The CHM has at least the IOM of a Multics system, maybe the entire > thing. I am sure it is stored in an inaccessible fashion during > construction which is underway, but checking there would be good next > year to compare with their system cabinets. CHM has *all* of the Dockmaster system, on permanent loan from the National Museum of Cryptology at Ft. Meade. Well, all except *the HDAs in the disk drives*. :-( Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 12 14:16:59 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 20:16:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 9845 replacement ROM boards In-Reply-To: <000601cb52a3$4d531af0$e7f950d0$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at Sep 12, 10 07:52:37 pm Message-ID: > > The rom's on my HP 9845B are getting unstable when the machine is heating > up, they're giving errors. > > Ansgar Kueckes from www.hp9845.net has a very nice > solution, the design for a replacement board using flash memory. Is this a replacement for a ROM module (the SIM-like thing that goes into the ROM drawer), the ROM drawer PCB, an internal HP845 PCB, or what? The first would be the best IMHO in that it keeps the machine as original as possible, It's known that some 3rd party ROM modules for the 9845 didn't use the HP hybrid circuits, they used normal DIL ICs on a little PCB. There is just enough space for a 0.6" wide package... > It includes the pcb desing, I asked him permission to use his design and > produce a certain amount of PCB's and to sell them for cost price to other > collectors. He agreed, the more I order the cheaper the price will be, so > who wants a PCB for his HP 9845 ? > > More info on the project at : http://www.hp9845.net/9845/projects/romboard/ I will take a look. I am not in a position to spend much money at the moment, but depending on the final price I might be interested. -tony From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Sep 12 15:15:45 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 13:15:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: imaging multi-session CDs In-Reply-To: <297F9E127C534CB699C19BBBD6AE6935@dell8300> from Teo Zenios at "Sep 12, 10 11:36:45 am" Message-ID: <201009122015.o8CKFjR0016580@floodgap.com> > Padus Discjuggler was used back when people ripped Dreamcast CD's to get > both the data and audio tracks. It would be for the PC and I forget if the > audio tracks were separate or not. I went looking to see if there was ever a Mac version of DiscJuggler made. It appears not, but there is this: http://simplyburns.berlios.de/ It rips and burns multi-session discs into simple cdrdao TOC/BIN packs and works flawlessly. It even ripped my Alpha Micro AlphaCD ($230! you can bet I want to make a backup), which is in a totally alien format neither Toast nor Disk Utility could make any sense out of. Happily ripping my Mac games collection as we speak, and saving images off to the server for safekeeping. After all, where are you going to find another copy of Carmageddon Mac? (Yes, I know where, but I mean legally.) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I still think he needs a beating. -- Ukyo, "Ranma 1/2" --------------------- From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Sep 12 15:17:20 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 21:17:20 +0100 Subject: RD54 Whine Message-ID: <014701cb52b7$8547f750$8fd7e5f0$@ntlworld.com> I have just acquired a MicroVAX 2000 which I found to contain an RD54. If I try booting the machine from the disk you hear a whine, when the whine stops you can hear the heads move, then when the heads stop moving you hear the whine again. Is this a terminally sick disk? Thanks Rob From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun Sep 12 15:19:05 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 22:19:05 +0200 Subject: HP 9845 replacement ROM boards In-Reply-To: References: <000601cb52a3$4d531af0$e7f950d0$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at Sep 12, 10 07:52:37 pm Message-ID: <001101cb52b7$bf7ffd00$3e7ff700$@xs4all.nl> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell Verzonden: zondag 12 september 2010 21:17 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: HP 9845 replacement ROM boards > > The rom's on my HP 9845B are getting unstable when the machine is > heating up, they're giving errors. > > Ansgar Kueckes from www.hp9845.net has a very > nice solution, the design for a replacement board using flash memory. Is this a replacement for a ROM module (the SIM-like thing that goes into the ROM drawer), the ROM drawer PCB, an internal HP845 PCB, or what? The first would be the best IMHO in that it keeps the machine as original as possible, It's known that some 3rd party ROM modules for the 9845 didn't use the HP hybrid circuits, they used normal DIL ICs on a little PCB. There is just enough space for a 0.6" wide package... > It includes the pcb desing, I asked him permission to use his design > and produce a certain amount of PCB's and to sell them for cost price > to other collectors. He agreed, the more I order the cheaper the price > will be, so who wants a PCB for his HP 9845 ? > > More info on the project at : > http://www.hp9845.net/9845/projects/romboard/ I will take a look. I am not in a position to spend much money at the moment, but depending on the final price I might be interested. -tony Tony, The rom board replaces the system rom's not the rom modules from the drawers. It's a small pcb that will be placed as a piggyback on the PPU board. Price will depend on the ordered amount and the delivery time (because there is no hurry I will go for 15 days .) -Rik From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 15:34:06 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 16:34:06 -0400 Subject: Are there any Tektronix graphics terminals demos out there? Message-ID: Hi, All, I'm dusting off a Tektronix 4105 color graphics terminal (for VCFmw) and while I have the docs and such, I lack the time to write any code from scratch to scribble on the tube. Does anyone know of any demos out there (for any platform, really - I can emulate anything that's likely to come up if I don't have an original system)? I see some mention out there about software for TOPS-20, and I'm sure there was stuff for VMS, and there may be some stuff out there for UNIX (the terminal was made in 1983). I'd also be happy with older Tektronix demos. The terminal is pretty versatile about what it emulates. I know I could find plot libraries and such and write something from scratch, but I have so much else going on that I just won't have time to be writing code as I collect, test (and probably repair) gear to go this weekend. Ideally, there's either some canned files that can be emitted to the terminal, or some FORTRAN or C code that can be compiled and pointed at a terminal. Thanks for any tips. -ethan From jws at jwsss.com Sat Sep 11 04:12:55 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 02:12:55 -0700 Subject: Help Identifying this Engineering/Mainframe panel In-Reply-To: <4C8AB07B.8030503@comcast.net> References: <4C8AB07B.8030503@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4C8B4817.8020105@jwsss.com> On 9/10/2010 3:26 PM, Nick Allen wrote: > > Subject: Re: [multicians] hardware maintenance panel > Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 15:18:50 -0400 > From: Chris Jones <> > > Next question to ask, since some here seem to know the prior owner, and the estate, can anyone speculate as to which machine this was from? There were systems in Nashville & Lafayette, La that I can think of, and maybe Florida. I think the ones scrapped in the northeast went to people there, and I think the Phoenix system went to the CHM. If noone has an answer, I'll check on the multicians list to see if there is any speculation as to disposition of scrap, other than Docmaster. Last system taken down in France was sadly broken up for scrap despite trys to save it. I think there is video somewhere of the shutdown, and possibly the panels. I'll look for that. I know the console was filmed (recorded), not sure about the power off. Jim From nick.allen at comcast.net Sat Sep 11 11:42:02 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 11:42:02 -0500 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <4C8A6B32.2090408@comcast.net> References: <4C87FEAB.9010000@comcast.net> <4C8A6B32.2090408@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4C8BB15A.9020405@comcast.net> So, I acquired a Xerox Alto II XM several months ago, I am still in SHOCK that I am the proud new owner of the Alto, but I still have yet to get it operational. Does anyone here have working knowledge that can help me troubleshoot the Alto (possibly even video chat with me on skype). Also, I am thinking of insuring the Alto, does anyone have ANY clue on the value of a Xerox Alto II XM (I know they are EXTREMELY RARE, however I don't think I have ever heard of any selling at auction, therefore no idea of the value)? From pinball at telus.net Sat Sep 11 12:21:48 2010 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 10:21:48 -0700 Subject: Help Identifying this Engineering/Mainframe panel In-Reply-To: <4C8A30C7.7000806@comcast.net> References: <4C89EE23.9000709@jwsss.com> <4C8A30C7.7000806@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4C8BBAAC.9000401@telus.net> Nick Allen wrote: > I have uploaded to picasa in their original FULL resolution =) > > http://picasaweb.google.com/NeXTprototype/MainframePanel?authkey=Gv1sRgCMvG1bHlqo3iyAE# > > > Thanks again everyone, this is only my second day on the classiccmp > lists, and you have all been so helpful and quick to reply! > One of the scrolls shows part of a number and "Rev B", perhaps there is more information on the edges... Also, the transistors may have date codes - that can help narrow down the search. Date codes are usually a four digit number without a prefix or suffix and are in the format YYWW for YearWeek. John :-#)# From nick.allen at comcast.net Sat Sep 11 12:35:37 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 12:35:37 -0500 Subject: Help Identifying this Engineering/Mainframe panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C8BBDE9.1030405@comcast.net> YES I will bring it to VCF-MW (i didn't even think of it before, I had no idea there would be so much interest). I can't wait till VCF-MW as I have so much to share, this is my first get together with any vintage collectors, I have been somewhat of a hermit with my collection, and none of my family or friends really appreciate vintage computers, it will be nice to share and chat with people who share the same passion. AND I HOPE people will be able to help me troubleshoot my Xerox Alto and get the Diablo Disk drive working! From rikbos at xs4all.nl Sat Sep 11 13:00:19 2010 From: rikbos at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 20:00:19 +0200 Subject: OT: Akai VT-100 video tapes Message-ID: <000001cb51db$35a0cf10$a0e26d30$@xs4all.nl> A small OT question is there someone on the list who can digitize Akai VT-100 video tapes. I'm asking this in behalf of the owner of the tapes and a non-working VT-100 system. I suppose the tapes are PAL because the owner of them lives in the Netherlands. The digitizer can have the system if he likes. -Rik From rikbos at xs4all.nl Sat Sep 11 13:04:23 2010 From: rikbos at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 20:04:23 +0200 Subject: Availeble Barcrest CPU and ROM boards Message-ID: <000501cb51db$c6f34330$54d9c990$@xs4all.nl> I suppose this is on topic, I got a few (5) Barcrest CPU boards and ROM modules. If someone needs them contact me off-list. Items are located in the Netherlands. -Rik From mark.kahrs at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 14:52:46 2010 From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 15:52:46 -0400 Subject: Chips as jewelry Message-ID: Argggh! Went with the spousal unit to a local arts fair and what did one vendor sell? Right, "obsolete" chips. I immediately spotted a LSI-11 chip set. And what about the EPROM bracelet? Some gold NASA stuff as well. Sad, very sad. From nick.allen at comcast.net Sat Sep 11 18:18:59 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 18:18:59 -0500 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <4C8BE5B4.9030100@degnanco.com> References: <4C8BE5B4.9030100@degnanco.com> Message-ID: <4C8C0E63.2020608@comcast.net> I thought a video might be easier for you all to see the issue I am having with restoring my Xerox Alto. The issue I am having is the Diablo Disk drive does not power on fully (I am measuring +15 and -15V on the drive, but +5V is only measuring at around 2.5V. The lamps on the front of the drive do not light-up, and the LOAD/RUN button does nothing, hence the door lock does not unlock. Here is a link to the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mx80CvjuvyE I have visually inspected all PCB boards and components, nothing seem to be damaged. Also, the power supplies seem to be outputting power properly (as seen via the RED voltage LEDS in the Alto card cage. Any recommendations on how to troubleshoot the disk drive further? From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 08:43:37 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 09:43:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Nice FreeCycle find! Message-ID: I picked up a UMAX Astra 2400S scanner with sheetfeeder for free. While the unit itself is not classic by any means, it is extremely well supported by Linux and I'm now able to do batch scanning of classic computer documentation :-). Would appreciate suggestions on application software and techniques, since I know that some folks on the list have considerable experience in this field. Also wondering if there is a "wish list" being kept for items that folks need. Steve -- From jws at jwsss.com Sun Sep 12 16:00:27 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 14:00:27 -0700 Subject: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA In-Reply-To: <262988.64281.qm@web110613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <262988.64281.qm@web110613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C8D3F6B.6060105@jwsss.com> A lot of the equipment is gone, but a very nice large Summagraphics input system remains. I am posting a pointer to the photos with this. I apologize for the bitly redirection, but it keeps my actual web URL out of google, which seems to index this site and pass the info around. http://bit.ly/summagraphics contact Alice directly if interested. Jim On 9/1/2010 1:18 AM, steven stengel wrote: > Slightly off-topic, but still interests many of you. > Dozens of vintage (mediocre condition) electronic and HAM radio equipment for > sale in Costa Mesa, CA. > Storage unit needs to be cleaned out! None of it is mine, I'm just assisting. > There is a Kaypro II, Kaypro 4, a floppy drive assembly or two. No S-100 > systems. > > The owner is very unlikely to ship anything, but I can if required. > > See pics at this link: > http://popbottlecaps.com/temp/electronics.html > > I took the Altos 586, with 2 feet of manuals, and some software. > > > > > From IanK at vulcan.com Sun Sep 12 19:00:13 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 17:00:13 -0700 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <4C8C0E63.2020608@comcast.net> References: <4C8BE5B4.9030100@degnanco.com>,<4C8C0E63.2020608@comcast.net> Message-ID: Given what you're seeing with the 5v rail, my advice would be to first isolate the 5v supply and troubleshoot it. Either it is defective or it is trying to deliver into a significant sink. Chances are it is defective. I don't know for sure but given the era of this drive I'd suspect the power supply is a switcher. Run it into a lightbulb to provide a load. If you aren't getting 5v into a dummy load, consider changing out the filter caps - on a machine of this era, they're almost certainly bad unless they've been replaced along the way (look at the date codes). Of course, there's also the possibility of a bad pass regulator or other active component, but my experience has been that it's most often the filter caps that go south. None of this advice is really much different for a linear supply - if you have a big ol' transformer in the box - but you don't have to have a load just to get it to run. A load is still a good idea so you can see if the filter caps collapse when the power supply is actually trying to supply current. If you find you have a perfectly good 5v into a dummy (and look at it with a scope, too), then I'd first look at filter caps on the boards fed by the 5v. I had a power supply in a Nova 1200 that was actually working just fine but was trying to deliver 15v into a dead short caused by a filter cap on one of the core memory rails. The current limiter in the power supply worked admirably, but it looked like the 15v supply was not generating, until I isolated it with a dummy load.... It looks like a really nice machine! Congratulations on a fabulous acquisition -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Nick Allen [nick.allen at comcast.net] Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 4:18 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto I thought a video might be easier for you all to see the issue I am having with restoring my Xerox Alto. The issue I am having is the Diablo Disk drive does not power on fully (I am measuring +15 and -15V on the drive, but +5V is only measuring at around 2.5V. The lamps on the front of the drive do not light-up, and the LOAD/RUN button does nothing, hence the door lock does not unlock. Here is a link to the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mx80CvjuvyE I have visually inspected all PCB boards and components, nothing seem to be damaged. Also, the power supplies seem to be outputting power properly (as seen via the RED voltage LEDS in the Alto card cage. Any recommendations on how to troubleshoot the disk drive further? From ragooman at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 19:14:40 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 20:14:40 -0400 Subject: Chips as jewelry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 3:52 PM, Mark Kahrs wrote: > Argggh! > > Went with the spousal unit to a local arts fair and what did one vendor > sell? Right, "obsolete" chips. I immediately spotted a LSI-11 chip set. > And what about the EPROM bracelet? > > Some gold NASA stuff as well. > > Sad, very sad. > yep, that must be the same guy I met at the Breezeshooters Hamfest a few years back. I twinged very badly when he introduced himself an his work. This was while I had an exhibit of various machines indoors there. He also supplies these to the gift shop at the Carnegie Science museum here. I still have his number around here. I wanted to check on him once in a while to see if he's harboring any stuff that might be sacrificed for his trade. =Dan --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From rescue at hawkmountain.net Sun Sep 12 20:21:59 2010 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 21:21:59 -0400 Subject: RD54 Whine In-Reply-To: <014701cb52b7$8547f750$8fd7e5f0$@ntlworld.com> References: <014701cb52b7$8547f750$8fd7e5f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4C8D7CB7.6030109@hawkmountain.net> Rob Jarratt wrote: > I have just acquired a MicroVAX 2000 which I found to contain an RD54. If I > try booting the machine from the disk you hear a whine, when the whine stops > you can hear the heads move, then when the heads stop moving you hear the > whine again. Is this a terminally sick disk? > > Thanks > > Rob > > Years ago, I ran an XT-2190 and an XT-1140 in a PC. The 2190 did not have a whine... but the 1140 did... but I discovered that it only happened in a certain track range.... so I wrote a program that call a DOS interrupt to seek the heads to a quiet track... compiled it and called it q1140.com. If the whine bothered me (and it happened to be whining), I could type q1140 at the DOS prompt and have the noise go away. The drive worked flawlessly until it was retired..... Never did know what the whine was. -- Curt From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 20:35:21 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 22:35:21 -0300 Subject: HP 9845 replacement ROM boards References: <000601cb52a3$4d531af0$e7f950d0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <053101cb52e5$5cee7170$0600000a@portajara> > More info on the project at : > http://www.hp9845.net/9845/projects/romboard/ > If you're interested let me know off-list Rik, may I suggest some mods on this project? - why not SMD chips? - The board can be made WAY smaller (and cheaper)!!! - If you use only one socket and 8 wires to the cs2 socket, you could make it EVEN smaller! - There are 16 bit memories on the market for cheap. Even SMD ones. Why not? I think there is an easier way of doing that board :) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 21:00:59 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 22:00:59 -0400 Subject: Help Identifying this Engineering/Mainframe panel In-Reply-To: <4C8B4817.8020105@jwsss.com> References: <4C8AB07B.8030503@comcast.net> <4C8B4817.8020105@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > Next question to ask, since some here seem to know the prior owner, and the > estate, can anyone speculate as to which machine this was from? Marty did not know. He was pretty good at glomming onto interesting junk. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 21:12:40 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 22:12:40 -0400 Subject: Chips as jewelry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Went with the spousal unit to a local arts fair and what did one vendor > sell? ?Right, "obsolete" chips. ?I immediately spotted a LSI-11 chip set. > And what about the EPROM bracelet? If you see a bunch of his jewelery with weird chrome knobs or white pilot light jewels, thank me, because I sold him the parts. Really people, get a grip - the stuff he sells is not super rare. I have already talked to him about these things. -- Will From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Sep 12 21:19:10 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 19:19:10 -0700 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: References: <4C8BE5B4.9030100@degnanco.com>, <4C8C0E63.2020608@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4C8D8A1E.1050403@bitsavers.org> On 9/12/10 5:00 PM, Ian King wrote: > Given what you're seeing with the 5v rail, my advice would be to first isolate the 5v supply and troubleshoot it. Most of the Mighty Mite 5v supplies have failed. They weren't all that great to begin with. I'd be curious if you're able to get a schematic out of LH for it. I have about 10 dead ones. I've built bolt-in replacement frames using modern Lambda multi-voltage switchers. You need +/- 5 to replace the Mighty Mite. From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 12 21:31:52 2010 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 19:31:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP 9825 refurbishing Message-ID: <486129.47183.qm@web38105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello all, I bought one of the HP 9825's that Marvin recently posted here about (via VCM auction). It's a 9825T and seems to work perfectly, along with an HPIB interface I bought off Ebay. Of course the case needs cleaning and there is a penny-sized chip from the corner of the bezel, so I've got the whole thing disassembled, and am now in the process of rebuilding the chipped bezel corner with JB-weld. Next step is to repaint the case, then replace the at-risk PSU caps, refurbish the tape drive, clean the keyboard, etc. The unit is beautifully engineered, by the way. Some questions for the group: 1) Does anyone have a suggestion for the best paint to match the original color? If I can find a close match, I'll just tape over the legends on the bezel, and paint around them. If I can't get a good match, I still may do the same thing, or I'll just paint the whole thing, and then print out some decals on a color printer to match the original legends. Or, if anyone here has a better suggestion, I'd love to hear. Any suggestion for type of paint? I found a can of Rustoleum brand almond-color satin finish enamel spray-paint. Is that a good choice, other than wrong color? I also just bought an HP 87 on Ebay as well, so I'm hoping that whatever I learn here, I can apply to refurbishing the 87 as well. 2) While the unit is completely disassembled, are there any hacks, mods, upgrades, etc. that I may want to know about before I put everything back together? 3) I would like to use this in my home lab, so I was hoping to find a way to store programs without using the tape drive or a disc drive. Is anyone there moving data between the 9825 and a PC? Can some of the utilities on hp9845.net be used to interface with the 9825 as well? This would be icing on the cake, since it would be shame to let such a nice machine go unused. However, I do have the Prologix GPIB interface with PyVISA/Scipy/Numpy, Thanks for any input, Dave From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Sep 12 21:40:54 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 19:40:54 -0700 Subject: Chips as jewelry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57847830e16d95b5995c045f3290fc5f@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Sep 11, at 12:52 PM, Mark Kahrs wrote: > Argggh! > > Went with the spousal unit to a local arts fair and what did one vendor > sell? Right, "obsolete" chips. I immediately spotted a LSI-11 chip > set. > And what about the EPROM bracelet? > > Some gold NASA stuff as well. > > Sad, very sad. Well, that activity could itself qualify as 'classic'. I doubt if I could find it, but I do remember a little 'news highlights' article in Popular Electronics or Radio Electronics in the late-60's or early-70's about e-stuff being made into jewelry. The accompanying photo showed a female model with bits of circuit boards or what-have-you hanging off her ears. It was, like, really mod, man. (.. the things one remembers) From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Sep 12 21:47:45 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 22:47:45 -0400 Subject: Chips as jewelry References: <57847830e16d95b5995c045f3290fc5f@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <1F410A65A8854821994BB4495238197B@dell8300> I recall a software seller in the 1990's selling keychains at the front counter made from 30 pin SIMMs. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Hilpert" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 10:40 PM Subject: Re: Chips as jewelry > On 2010 Sep 11, at 12:52 PM, Mark Kahrs wrote: > >> Argggh! >> >> Went with the spousal unit to a local arts fair and what did one vendor >> sell? Right, "obsolete" chips. I immediately spotted a LSI-11 chip set. >> And what about the EPROM bracelet? >> >> Some gold NASA stuff as well. >> >> Sad, very sad. > > Well, that activity could itself qualify as 'classic'. I doubt if I could > find it, but I do remember a little 'news highlights' article in Popular > Electronics or Radio Electronics in the late-60's or early-70's about > e-stuff being made into jewelry. The accompanying photo showed a female > model with bits of circuit boards or what-have-you hanging off her ears. > > It was, like, really mod, man. > > (.. the things one remembers) > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 12 21:54:03 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 19:54:03 -0700 Subject: Chips as jewelry In-Reply-To: <57847830e16d95b5995c045f3290fc5f@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <57847830e16d95b5995c045f3290fc5f@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4C8D2FDB.23817.245F988@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Sep 2010 at 19:40, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Well, that activity could itself qualify as 'classic'. I doubt if I > could find it, but I do remember a little 'news highlights' article in > Popular Electronics or Radio Electronics in the late-60's or > early-70's about e-stuff being made into jewelry. The accompanying > photo showed a female model with bits of circuit boards or > what-have-you hanging off her ears. Heck, Intel did it. I've got a key fob that has 386 and 486 dies embedded in a block of resin. --Chuck From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Sep 13 10:22:34 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 17:22:34 +0200 Subject: HP 9825 refurbishing In-Reply-To: <486129.47183.qm@web38105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <486129.47183.qm@web38105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000701cb5357$7df46560$79dd3020$@xs4all.nl> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Dave Verzonden: maandag 13 september 2010 4:32 Aan: cctech at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: HP 9825 refurbishing Hello all, I bought one of the HP 9825's that Marvin recently posted here about (via VCM auction). It's a 9825T and seems to work perfectly, along with an HPIB interface I bought off Ebay. Of course the case needs cleaning and there is a penny-sized chip from the corner of the bezel, so I've got the whole thing disassembled, and am now in the process of rebuilding the chipped bezel corner with JB-weld. Next step is to repaint the case, then replace the at-risk PSU caps, refurbish the tape drive, clean the keyboard, etc. The unit is beautifully engineered, by the way. Some questions for the group: 1) Does anyone have a suggestion for the best paint to match the original color? If I can find a close match, I'll just tape over the legends on the bezel, and paint around them. If I can't get a good match, I still may do the same thing, or I'll just paint the whole thing, and then print out some decals on a color printer to match the original legends. Or, if anyone here has a better suggestion, I'd love to hear. Any suggestion for type of paint? I found a can of Rustoleum brand almond-color satin finish enamel spray-paint. Is that a good choice, other than wrong color? I also just bought an HP 87 on Ebay as well, so I'm hoping that whatever I learn here, I can apply to refurbishing the 87 as well. 2) While the unit is completely disassembled, are there any hacks, mods, upgrades, etc. that I may want to know about before I put everything back together? 3) I would like to use this in my home lab, so I was hoping to find a way to store programs without using the tape drive or a disc drive. Is anyone there moving data between the 9825 and a PC? Can some of the utilities on hp9845.net be used to interface with the 9825 as well? This would be icing on the cake, since it would be shame to let such a nice machine go unused. However, I do have the Prologix GPIB interface with PyVISA/Scipy/Numpy, Thanks for any input, Dave Dave, If you want to use the HPDrive util, you need the 9895A ROM and the IO ROM. The 9895A ROM is hard to find the IO-rom isn't with those rom's you can use HPDrive on a PC with a HP-IB card as Mass Storage Unit. Tape drives are easy to refurbish but most of the HP-tapes are bad they losing the magnetic layer. It's possible to convert the drives so they can use QIC40 tapes, I do have a short description and drawing of this mod. You can order new DC100A tapes by Athana at ~ $38,- a piece. It's also advisable to add a crowbar circuit to the psu the 723 regulator IC's and power transistors don't life forever. When they go you will be grateful for adding the crowbar circuitry. -Rik From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Sep 13 10:29:56 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 17:29:56 +0200 Subject: HP 9845 replacement ROM boards In-Reply-To: <053101cb52e5$5cee7170$0600000a@portajara> References: <000601cb52a3$4d531af0$e7f950d0$@xs4all.nl> <053101cb52e5$5cee7170$0600000a@portajara> Message-ID: <000801cb5358$889a4470$99cecd50$@xs4all.nl> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Alexandre Souza - Listas Verzonden: maandag 13 september 2010 3:35 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: HP 9845 replacement ROM boards > More info on the project at : > http://www.hp9845.net/9845/projects/romboard/ > If you're interested let me know off-list Rik, may I suggest some mods on this project? - why not SMD chips? - The board can be made WAY smaller (and cheaper)!!! - If you use only one socket and 8 wires to the cs2 socket, you could make it EVEN smaller! - There are 16 bit memories on the market for cheap. Even SMD ones. Why not? I think there is an easier way of doing that board :) It looks you're right about resizing the board. Does this means you're volunteering to do it ? ;-P -Rik From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 12:12:46 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 14:12:46 -0300 Subject: HP 9845 replacement ROM boards In-Reply-To: <000801cb5358$889a4470$99cecd50$@xs4all.nl> References: <000601cb52a3$4d531af0$e7f950d0$@xs4all.nl> <053101cb52e5$5cee7170$0600000a@portajara> <000801cb5358$889a4470$99cecd50$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: It looks you're right about resizing the board. > Does this means you're volunteering to do it ? ;-P > > I wouldn~t mind that. Would you like me to do that? From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 13 12:23:38 2010 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 10:23:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP 9825 refurbishing In-Reply-To: <000701cb5357$7df46560$79dd3020$@xs4all.nl> References: <486129.47183.qm@web38105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <000701cb5357$7df46560$79dd3020$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <185247.376.qm@web38101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Rik, Thanks for the info. I would be grateful for your tape conversion description, since I would like to restore the machine fully. At $38/tape, I doubt I'll be using the tape drive much :-( Until I come up with another storage method, a tape will have to do. Looking at the PSU, I have rev. E. It looks like a crowbar could be useful after the 5V switcher, and the 12V linear reg. I would think it couldn't hurt to replace the pass elements of the 5V reg and the 12V reg (Q3 and Q4). Did you find that the 723 regs failed, or the pass elements? The electrolytics are looking aged, so I'll replace them preemptively. I would be very interested in any diagrams and/or photos of your PSU mods. Best regards, Dave, If you want to use the HPDrive util, you need the 9895A ROM and the IO ROM. The 9895A ROM is hard to find the IO-rom isn't with those rom's you can use HPDrive on a PC with a HP-IB card as Mass Storage Unit. Tape drives are easy to refurbish but most of the HP-tapes are bad they losing the magnetic layer. It's possible to convert the drives so they can use QIC40 tapes, I do have a short description and drawing of this mod. You can order new DC100A tapes by Athana at ~ $38,- a piece. It's also advisable to add a crowbar circuit to the psu the 723 regulator IC's and power transistors don't life forever. When they go you will be grateful for adding the crowbar circuitry. -Rik From alexeyt at freeshell.org Mon Sep 13 15:19:03 2010 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 20:19:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Chips as jewelry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Sep 2010, Mark Kahrs wrote: > Argggh! > > Went with the spousal unit to a local arts fair and what did one vendor > sell? Right, "obsolete" chips. I immediately spotted a LSI-11 chip set. > And what about the EPROM bracelet? > > Some gold NASA stuff as well. > > Sad, very sad. Making art from computer parts isn't always bad... back before I got into collecting, I once found a broken 286 'laptop' on the curb. I didn't have a machine of my own yet (I think this was when I was in the 10th grade), so I tried to fix it as best I could; eventually I found the problem - a corner of the CLCC CPU was chipped off and missing. I'd spent so much time on it that I didn't want to just throw it away, so I kept some of the nicer looking components. A few years later I turned the 286 into a necklace; I still have it. Later yet some a**hole sold me a used laptop at a hamfest that worked great whan I tested it in front of him, but never powered up again after I took it home (and it turns out everything about his business was fake, down to the address and phone number on the very professional looking invoices). I don't know what he must have sacrificed to make it appear to work for the demo... I parted that machine out, and I have a nice 'horseshoe' over my front door that was a pair of type II PC Card slots in a past life. Alexey From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 13 15:44:52 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 13:44:52 -0700 Subject: Chips as jewelry In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4C8E2AD4.16574.E4533B@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Sep 2010 at 20:19, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > Making art from computer parts isn't always bad... back before I got > into collecting, I once found a broken 286 'laptop' on the curb. I > didn't have a machine of my own yet (I think this was when I was in > the 10th grade), so I tried to fix it as best I could; eventually I > found the problem - a corner of the CLCC CPU was chipped off and > missing. I'd spent so much time on it that I didn't want to just throw > it away, so I kept some of the nicer looking components. A few years > later I turned the 286 into a necklace; I still have it. The epitome of this was the Honeywell animal sculptures made from parts used as advertising primarily for their H200 systems back in the 70's. Remarkable stuff and quite beautiful. I've always wondered if Honeywell simply allowed the sculptor to wander through the parts crib, selecting anything (regardless of cost) that caught his eye. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Sep 13 16:07:25 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 14:07:25 -0700 Subject: Chips as jewelry In-Reply-To: <4C8E2AD4.16574.E4533B@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4C8E2AD4.16574.E4533B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <697b28288e2a11fa990a0db78b42fad8@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Sep 13, at 1:44 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > The epitome of this was the Honeywell animal sculptures made from > parts used as advertising primarily for their H200 systems back in > the 70's. Remarkable stuff and quite beautiful. > > I've always wondered if Honeywell simply allowed the sculptor to > wander through the parts crib, selecting anything (regardless of > cost) that caught his eye. Ed Thelen has some info about them: http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/TheCompMusRep/TCMR-V13.html#Animals Need some good colour photos. Apparently six of them are on display at the museum (CHM). I remember my 10-year-old self at the time, who was always scraping around for parts, thinking it was an awful waste of components. From mikelee at tdh.com Mon Sep 13 16:44:07 2010 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 16:44:07 -0500 Subject: Honeywell animals was: Chips as jewelry In-Reply-To: <4C8E2AD4.16574.E4533B@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4C8E2AD4.16574.E4533B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C8E9B27.5070109@tdh.com> On 9/13/2010 3:44 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The epitome of this was the Honeywell animal sculptures made from > parts used as advertising primarily for their H200 systems back in > the 70's. Remarkable stuff and quite beautiful. > > I've always wondered if Honeywell simply allowed the sculptor to > wander through the parts crib, selecting anything (regardless of > cost) that caught his eye. > > --Chuck > About a year ago, someone on ebay had new old stock of posters of a bunch of these Honeywell animals, so I purchased them. I should bring them out to VCFMW to display. Some of the originals are at CHM, not sure about the others. I think there was 8-10 posters in the lot I purchased. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 13 15:26:02 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 21:26:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <4C8C0E63.2020608@comcast.net> from "Nick Allen" at Sep 11, 10 06:18:59 pm Message-ID: > > I thought a video might be easier for you all to see the issue I am > having with restoring my Xerox Alto. > > The issue I am having is the Diablo Disk drive does not power on fully > (I am measuring +15 and -15V on the drive, but +5V is only measuring at > around 2.5V. The lamps on the front of the drive do not light-up, and > the LOAD/RUN button does nothing, hence the door lock does not unlock. I don't know the Alto at all, but this sounds a bit like a Diablo model 30 drive. In it? If so, from whta I remember, it derrives the +5V rail intenrally from the +15V supply. If the +5V rail is low, then either there's a problem in the regulator, or an overcurrnet condition (maybe a nearly-shorted capacitor). FWIW, I have the DIablo Model 30 service mnaual, but it woudl take a little time to find it. > > Here is a link to the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mx80CvjuvyE > > I have visually inspected all PCB boards and components, nothing seem to > be damaged. Also, the power supplies seem to be outputting power > properly (as seen via the RED voltage LEDS in the Alto card cage. I would still chekc thiem with a voltmeter and a 'scope (to look for excessive ripple). > Any recommendations on how to troubleshoot the disk drive further? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 13 15:22:56 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 21:22:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Chips as jewelry In-Reply-To: from "Mark Kahrs" at Sep 11, 10 03:52:46 pm Message-ID: > > Argggh! > > Went with the spousal unit to a local arts fair and what did one vendor > sell? Right, "obsolete" chips. I immediately spotted a LSI-11 chip set. > And what about the EPROM bracelet? > > Some gold NASA stuff as well. > > Sad, very sad. > Before you panic, how do you know those chips were working before they were turned into ornaments? The reason I mention this is that on a couple of occasions I've given boxes of definitely-defective chips and other components to artists for use in their work. And some of thsoe chips were pretty obscure... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 13 16:02:03 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 22:02:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 9845 replacement ROM boards In-Reply-To: <001101cb52b7$bf7ffd00$3e7ff700$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at Sep 12, 10 10:19:05 pm Message-ID: > Tony, > > The rom board replaces the system rom's not the rom modules from the > drawers. Oh, right... > It's a small pcb that will be placed as a piggyback on the PPU board. Dn't you mean on the ROM/RAM board? And I assume you'd need 2 boards (PPU ROMs and LPU ROMs) for a complete machine. Actually, I doubt I'd be interested at the momnet. My ROMs are fortunately OK for the time being. And to be honest, wiring up a kludgeboard on stripboard isnt' that hard. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 13 16:35:39 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 22:35:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 9825 refurbishing In-Reply-To: <000701cb5357$7df46560$79dd3020$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at Sep 13, 10 05:22:34 pm Message-ID: > If you want to use the HPDrive util, you need the 9895A ROM and the IO ROM. > The 9895A ROM is hard to find the IO-rom isn't with those rom's you can use > HPDrive on a PC with a HP-IB card as Mass Storage Unit. I thought hte HP9825T had most of the ROMs built-in. IIRC, the only ones that are misisng are the disk ROMs anmd the Matirx ROM (those have to be added as front-port modules). If this is the machine I am thinking of, the IO ROM is built in. > Tape drives are easy to refurbish but most of the HP-tapes are bad they > losing the magnetic layer. > It's possible to convert the drives so they can use QIC40 tapes, I do have a > short description and drawing of this mod. If this is the Athena mod, it's slightly curious, in that it involves paralleling resistotrs when it's easier to desolder the original write-current control resistor and replace it by one of the correct value. > You can order new DC100A tapes by Athana at ~ $38,- a piece. > It's also advisable to add a crowbar circuit to the psu the 723 regulator > IC's and power transistors don't life forever. When they go you will be > grateful for adding the crowbar circuitry. Seconded! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 13 16:11:02 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 22:11:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Altou In-Reply-To: <4C8D8A1E.1050403@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Sep 12, 10 07:19:10 pm Message-ID: > > On 9/12/10 5:00 PM, Ian King wrote: > > Given what you're seeing with the 5v rail, my advice would be to > > first isolate the 5v supply and troubleshoot it. I htought the OP implied the system power rails were correct, it was the iternal 5V rail for the disk drive that was low. > Most of the Mighty Mite 5v supplies have failed. They weren't all that > great to begin with. > > I'd be curious if you're able to get a schematic out of LH for it. I > have about 10 dead ones. Unless there's something _very_ strange about these supplies it whould be possiuble to reverse engineer them and troubleshoot them without an official schematic. Hekc, a lot of faults can probably be found without a schematic at all. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 13 16:28:29 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 22:28:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 9825 refurbishing In-Reply-To: <486129.47183.qm@web38105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> from "Dave" at Sep 12, 10 07:31:52 pm Message-ID: > > Hello all, > > I bought one of the HP 9825's that Marvin recently posted here about (via VCM > auction). It's a 9825T and seems to work perfectly, along with an HPIB > interface I bought off Ebay. Of course the case needs cleaning and there is a > penny-sized chip from the corner of the bezel, so I've got the whole thing > disassembled, and am now in the process of rebuilding the chipped bezel corner > with JB-weld. Next step is to repaint the case, then replace the at-risk PSU > caps, refurbish the tape drive, clean the keyboard, etc. The unit is > beautifully engineered, by the way. Of course it's beautifully enginered. It's an old HP :-) (only semi-joking here) I assume yo've found http://www.hpmusuem.net/ where you can get manuals, etc, from. I don;t know which keyboard you have, but if it's the older 'chicklet' one, be caeful when dismantling it. You will end up with keys all over the floor if you remove al lthe tiny screws and then pull the PCB off. Don't ask how I found that out. > > Some questions for the group: > > 1) Does anyone have a suggestion for the best paint to match the original > color? If I can find a close match, I'll just tape over the legends on the > bezel, and paint around them. If I can't get a good match, I still may do the > same thing, or I'll just paint the whole thing, and then print out some decals > on a color printer to match the original legends. Or, if anyone here has a I dont hjave the equipment to do this, but I suspect everyone else does.... The vintage radio resotres often scan the tuning dials, etc of old sets clean them up on the PC, and then print out a replacement. If oyu have a colour scanner and printer, perhaps you could scan the legents and print out the replacements in the right size, colour, etc. > better suggestion, I'd love to hear. Any suggestion for type of paint? I found > a can of Rustoleum brand almond-color satin finish enamel spray-paint. Is that > a good choice, other than wrong color? I also just bought an HP 87 on Ebay as > well, so I'm hoping that whatever I learn here, I can apply to refurbishing the > 87 as well. > > 2) While the unit is completely disassembled, are there any hacks, mods, > upgrades, etc. that I may want to know about before I put everything back > together? You know do the tape drive (rollers, and check the 2 little filament lamps in it, one for the EOT sensor, the otehr for the tacho). Check the printer mechanism too, there's a rubber bumper that often fails, It's not hard to replace. I can give the procedure for taking the printer apart if it's not obvius/in the manual For some totally inexplicable reason HP did not fit crowbars to the PSU in the 9815 or 9825. If you are going to use the machine, I would certainly put crowbars on the +5V and +7.5V outputs, and probably on the otehr outputs too. The 7.5 rail is the one most people miss, but it's used by many of the custom chips, so you don;t want an overvoltage there... > > 3) I would like to use this in my home lab, so I was hoping to find a way to > store programs without using the tape drive or a disc drive. Is anyone there > moving data between the 9825 and a PC? Can some of the utilities on hp9845.net > be used to interface with the 9825 as well? The plain 9825 will only store programs on a tpae drive. There were 2 disk ROM modules that plug into the front of the machine -- these ROMs are not buil into any 9825. The older module worked with the 9885 8" drive only, this has a suctom 16 bit parallel interface which seems to be undocumetned (an project to tackle sometime, there is some information in the Pascal system documentation for the 9000/200 machines on bitsavers). The later ROM would also work with the 9895 drive, which is an HPIB device using the Amigo protocol I asusme that this can be used with some of the untilities on hp9845.org, but not having a machine to run them on (and having an objection on principle to binary-only software), I've not tried them. A silly thought. I beleive you have the Sysmte Programming ROM built into your machine. That has a keyword (STORE iirc) that stores a string as a line in program memeory. Could you write a bootloarder (stored at high line numbers) to read strings in from a PC (say over a serial interace) and store them as a program? -tony From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Sep 13 16:56:55 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 14:56:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Honeywell animals was: Chips as jewelry In-Reply-To: <4C8E9B27.5070109@tdh.com> References: , <4C8E2AD4.16574.E4533B@cclist.sydex.com> <4C8E9B27.5070109@tdh.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Sep 2010, Michael Lee wrote: > On 9/13/2010 3:44 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> The epitome of this was the Honeywell animal sculptures made from >> parts used as advertising primarily for their H200 systems back in >> the 70's. Remarkable stuff and quite beautiful. >> >> I've always wondered if Honeywell simply allowed the sculptor to >> wander through the parts crib, selecting anything (regardless of >> cost) that caught his eye. > > About a year ago, someone on ebay had new old stock of posters of a bunch of > these Honeywell animals, so I purchased them. I should bring them out to > VCFMW to display. Some of the originals are at CHM, not sure about the > others. I think there was 8-10 posters in the lot I purchased. Where are some good modern color photos of these sculptures? I found a headshot of the fox here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mwichary/3250018058/ -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 13 17:06:29 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 23:06:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: Chips as jewelry In-Reply-To: from "Alexey Toptygin" at Sep 13, 10 08:19:03 pm Message-ID: > Making art from computer parts isn't always bad... back before I got into True, if those parts are beyond repair, it makes snese to use them for something else... > collecting, I once found a broken 286 'laptop' on the curb. I didn't have > a machine of my own yet (I think this was when I was in the 10th grade), > so I tried to fix it as best I could; eventually I found the problem - a > corner of the CLCC CPU was chipped off and missing. I'd spent so much time IIRC the corners of LCC pacakges are notched so you can only fit the chip the right way round into teh socket. But I assume this was more borken than that. Off failure, I wonder how it happened... In any case, I think I'd have tried a new CPU chip (and IIRC, the PGA, PLCC and LCC versios of the CPU all have the same through-hole pinout when used in their standard sockets). > on it that I didn't want to just throw it away, so I kept some of the > nicer looking components. A few years later I turned the 286 into a > necklace; I still have it. > > Later yet some a**hole sold me a used laptop at a hamfest that worked > great whan I tested it in front of him, but never powered up again after I > took it home (and it turns out everything about his business was fake, This sounds very hard to fake (I asusme he didn't amange to switch the machine you saw for another one...) My guess is that the problem was PSU-related, and that there was some way of kick-starting the machine. In otehr words most, if not all, of the 'computer' stuff was working, and the problem may well have been a simple and cheap component. Finding whcih one is another matter... I have a policy of never buying anything on E-bay or at a hamfest unless what I can see is worth the selling price to me. I'll buy an old machine expexting to have to repalce some of the ICs. I don't expect it to work. For that reason I rarely buy old ICs (unless _very_ cheap), becuase I can't repair those if they're fault.. To be fair, though, almost every seller I've dealt with, on E-bay and at radio rallies (hamfests) has been very honest. I don't think I've ever been really diasapointed. And the very good deals (like the time I bought an old Toyo/Sanyo thermal trnnsfer printer at a radio rally for a very small sum, and when I collected it later, I found that I got mot just the machine, but also 6 new rolls of paper, 6 new rolls of the thrmal transfer film, a complte set of spare boards, the user manaul and hte serviec manual (including schematics) for the print engine)) have more tahn made up for any less good ones. I do remember that in most cases I am buying 25 year old or more electronic equipment and I don't expect it to be just as it left the factory. I expect sigs of use (scratches, rubbing, etc). I expect there to be faults. -tony From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 13 17:28:46 2010 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 15:28:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP 9825 refurbishing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <774604.66176.qm@web38106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > I thought hte HP9825T had most of the ROMs built-in. IIRC, the only ones > that are misisng are the disk ROMs anmd the Matirx ROM (those have to be > added as front-port modules). If this is the machine I am thinking of, > the IO ROM is built in. That's right. The Extended I/O ROM is built in. Under the cover, the following are listed: 9872A plotter, Genereal I/O, Extended I/O, Adv. Programming, String, Sytem Programming >From the hp9825.com site, I gather that it should be possible to transfer programs to and from the 9825 in ASCII format via the serial card and some Sytem Programming ROM routine. Not exactly the same as mass storage, but better than nothing. >> It's also advisable to add a crowbar circuit to the psu the 723 regulator >> IC's and power transistors don't life forever. When they go you will be >> grateful for adding the crowbar circuitry. > Seconded! I plan to do this. Any pointers from those who have done the mod? -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Sep 13 18:29:28 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 16:29:28 -0700 Subject: Honeywell animals was: Chips as jewelry In-Reply-To: <4C8E9B27.5070109@tdh.com> References: , <4C8E2AD4.16574.E4533B@cclist.sydex.com> <4C8E9B27.5070109@tdh.com> Message-ID: <4C8EB3D8.1050409@bitsavers.org> On 9/13/10 2:44 PM, Michael Lee wrote: > On 9/13/2010 3:44 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> The epitome of this was the Honeywell animal sculptures made from >> parts used as advertising primarily for their H200 systems back in >> the 70's. Remarkable stuff and quite beautiful. >> "Joe Veno?s artwork encompasses many areas, from children?s books and games to multidimensional sculptures. Within the Good Night Our World series, he has also illustrated Good Night Boston, Good Night New York City, and Good Night Chicago. His client list includes Houghton Mifflin, Harcourt Brace, Target, BP Oil, Honeywell, Hostess, Hasbro, Milton Bradely, Dunkin Donut, and Gummy Candies. Mr. Veno attended the Boston Museum of Fine Arts School and is a graduate of the Massachusetts College of Art. He lives with his wife, Tara, in a small town north of Boston. They have two grown children." -- Joe is still around, as far as I know. http://www.joeveno.com/contact/contact.html Someone really should talk to him about his work with Honeywell. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Sep 13 18:34:23 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 16:34:23 -0700 Subject: Honeywell animals was: Chips as jewelry In-Reply-To: <4C8EB3D8.1050409@bitsavers.org> References: , <4C8E2AD4.16574.E4533B@cclist.sydex.com> <4C8E9B27.5070109@tdh.com> <4C8EB3D8.1050409@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4C8EB4FF.2050205@bitsavers.org> On 9/13/10 4:29 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 9/13/10 2:44 PM, Michael Lee wrote: >> On 9/13/2010 3:44 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> The epitome of this was the Honeywell animal sculptures made from >>> parts used as advertising primarily for their H200 systems back in >>> the 70's. Remarkable stuff and quite beautiful. >>> > > "Joe Veno?s artwork encompasses many areas, from children?s books and games > to multidimensional sculptures. Within the Good Night Our World series, he > has also illustrated Good Night Boston, Good Night New York City, and Good > Night Chicago. His client list includes Houghton Mifflin, Harcourt Brace, > Target, BP Oil, Honeywell, Hostess, Hasbro, Milton Bradely, Dunkin Donut, > and Gummy Candies. Mr. Veno attended the Boston Museum of Fine Arts School > and is a graduate of the Massachusetts College of Art. He lives with his > wife, Tara, in a small town north of Boston. They have two grown children." > > -- > > Joe is still around, as far as I know. > > http://www.joeveno.com/contact/contact.html > > Someone really should talk to him about his work with Honeywell. > article in Datamation, Jul, 78: Famed for His Menagerie Joe Veno is a very peripheral character in this industry. He wouldn't know a cpu from a transistor; to him, DBM looks like a misprinted logo. Joe Veno is an artist, an independent commercial illustrator, known for his playful and loose style, a cartoonist's spirit that seems more germane to the muppet characters of Sesame Street than the corporate symbols of a mainframe manufacturer. Yet Joe and Honeywell have gotten along well. Veno is the artisan who has created most of Honeywell's acclaimed animal menagerie, those homey creatures sculpted of multicolored diodes and widgets that have danced through HIS promo ads and added panda-bear friendliness to the Honeywell booth at innumerable trade shows. The 39-year-old Veno works in a small studio on stately Commonwealth Avenue in Boston's Back Bay that is cluttered with paper sculptures, cartoon drawings, posters, and children's games that Veno designed or has in process. A small storage room to the rear is cluttered with boxes of tiny electronic components from Honeywell warehouses. "I still don't know what these parts are," the bush-mustached Veno admits." "I'm embarrassed to say it after all these years, but to me they're just color and form elements." When he picks up a new commission Veno visits a local HIS plant and wanders through the warehouse with a shopping cart. "It's always kind of a crazy scene, going through a factory looking for pretty pieces of things," he laughs. "Mostly I get things out of the bins for rejected parts, but in some of the later plexiglass creatures we used some very expensIve gold-plated components. But when I'm going through the factory, all these guys are coming up suggesting I use this little thing, pointing out some gadget with a particular color-wanting me to use the pieces they work with." Veno has been working on Honeywell assignments for "six or" seven years," and although he has not been the only artist to have done HIS animals~five or six were involved in the early years, most notably Red Bank, N.J., sculptor" Jack Ridder--Veno's work so dominates the menagerie in both number and style that he is generally identified as the series creator. Yet advertising art, like theater, is a collective art: the style and form are largely Veno's, but the subject and concept are dictated by HIS ad men at Batten, Barton, Durstine & Osborn (B80&0) "and Honeywell's director of advertising, Morey? Depman. Veno justly and generously shares credit. If it were not for the Boston office of 13BO&O, he would have stayed with his staple work, illustrating children's books and standard copy layouts, and creating games and various displays for Sesame Street and The Electric Company. Veno did a kooky paper sculpture for a Playboy magazine layout that caught the eye of a BBD&O art director who first asked him to design a skunk for the Honeywell series then underway. "I was rather hesitant to get into it," said Veno, "I'd never thought of myself as a sculptor; I was really just playing around with paper sculpture. But I did it and they liked it. It was cute, but not too sturdy. I had shaped the form with cardboard, and then glued the little pieces to it. I went from cardboard to using rigid polyurethane, big blocks that I could actually chisel and cut into." The polyurethane creatures Veno created over the years--the Honeywell camel, lion, fish, eagles, etc.-became the most prominent members of the HIS funny farm. While other artists who had earlier tried their hand had sculpted only a part of the animal, the angle of the head and body n~eded for a given camera angle (Ridder's bull's head is perhaps the most memorable example), Veno created full-bodied creatures, offering the ad designer the luxury of choosing a camera angle (or several) with the completed work before himand leaving Honeywell with a standalone menagerie that could tour for display. Last year Veno was asked to redesign the blocky style used in most of the series, to bring in a new, more modern flair. Inspired by Star Wars, he came up with an elaborate plexiglass design; futurist sculptures that capture life in a clear plastic form, and only display computer parts within. "I was really pleased with them. You can look through and around them; there is little of the solid mass that the earlier animals had. I did a series of three: a tiger, a fox, and the ram: They had movable limbs and eyes that lit up. Crazy! But it was fun, a real challenge." 'Those might be the last of the animals for a while," he added with an impish laugh. "Honeywell seems to think we went too far, but I really like those the best. In my judgment, the ram was the best of what I did. In fact, I'd love to have that one back .. " Com-_ mercially, I don't know, but critically, it got rave reviews." Feb, 1979 WILL THE REAL MR. RINDER PLEASE STAND UP? . I found your "People" story on Joe Veno (July, p. 39) very interesting, but also inaccurate on several counts. The name of the' notable sculptor of most of the early Honeywell animals is Jack Rindner (not Ridder). You also misspelled the name of Honeywell's director of advertising-Morey Dettman (not Depman). Most significant is your attribution of the new plexiglass design to Veno. The lion which appeared in January 1977 is Jack Rinder's, reflecting a creative use of curved plexiglass in response to BBD & O's request that he help them change the approach to the Honeywell series. ALAN B. SALISBURY Eatontown, New Jersey From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Sep 13 19:03:39 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 17:03:39 -0700 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C8EBBDB.1010001@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > I don't know the Alto at all, but this sounds a bit like a Diablo model > 30 drive. In it? Most Altos have the Diablo 31 (a variant of the 30 family). Some have the Diablo 44. > FWIW, I have the DIablo Model 30 service mnaual, but it woudl take a > little time to find it. Bitsavers has some 30-series and 40-series maintenance documentation online: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/diablo/ From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Sep 13 19:20:35 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 17:20:35 -0700 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: References: <4C8BE5B4.9030100@degnanco.com>, <4C8C0E63.2020608@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4C8EBFD3.8080000@bitsavers.org> On 9/12/10 5:00 PM, Ian King wrote: drive, but +5V is only measuring at > around 2.5V. The lamps on the front of the drive do not light-up, and > the LOAD/RUN button does nothing, hence the door lock does not unlock. > > Here is a link to the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mx80CvjuvyE > OK.. just watched the video. The CPU is fine. The red button disables the servo in the drive. His 5v is hosed in the drive, not the CPU. He originally reported that he smelled something burning in the drive, so I assume the low voltage supply inside is toast. 5v is derived from the incoming +15. It also appears to be a file server machine. It has the 80/300mb disc control in the bottom, which is what all the colored ribbon cables are down there in the CPU. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 13 19:28:52 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 17:28:52 -0700 Subject: Honeywell animals was: Chips as jewelry In-Reply-To: <4C8EB4FF.2050205@bitsavers.org> References: , <4C8EB3D8.1050409@bitsavers.org>, <4C8EB4FF.2050205@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4C8E5F54.16074.1B16557@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Sep 2010 at 16:34, Al Kossow wrote: > article in Datamation, Jul, 78: > > Famed for His > Menagerie > Joe Veno is a very peripheral character > in this industry.... Honeywell must have had some freewheeling marketing dpeartment at that time. It's probably been brought up before, but at about the same time (1966), Honeywell commissioned cartoonist Rowland Emmett to create a "Forget Me Not" computer: http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=2176 (1966, coincidentally, was the same year that "Star Trek" hit the little screen. It wasn't much liked by managment but was put on the air as a vehicle to promote NBC's color television broadcast. NBC's owner, RCA, was the largest manufacturer of color TVs at the time) --Chuck From bob099 at centurytel.net Mon Sep 13 20:51:53 2010 From: bob099 at centurytel.net (Bob Yates) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 20:51:53 -0500 Subject: TI-74 BasiCalc question Message-ID: <4C8ED539.4000904@centurytel.net> I picked up 3 of these that were being thrown out at work. Found a lot of information on the net, but don't see anything creative being done with the DockBus(HexBus) on them. Anyone have a pointer to something interesting? From Hollandia at ccountry.net Mon Sep 13 23:33:10 2010 From: Hollandia at ccountry.net (Hollandia at ccountry.net) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 21:33:10 -0700 Subject: Cleaning floppy drives Message-ID: <201009140433.o8E4X8Q2014222@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> As far as I know, all of the vendors of the "cleaning diskettes" that were available have stopped making them. Does anyone know of a source? Failing that, what is the correct way of cleaning a floppy drive? Thanks, Kurt From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 14 00:00:04 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 22:00:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cleaning floppy drives In-Reply-To: <201009140433.o8E4X8Q2014222@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> References: <201009140433.o8E4X8Q2014222@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Message-ID: <20100913215742.E39075@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 13 Sep 2010 Hollandia at ccountry.net wrote: > As far as I know, all of the vendors of the "cleaning diskettes" that were > available have stopped making them. > Does anyone know of a source? > > Failing that, what is the correct way of cleaning a floppy drive? Well, yeah, that DID usually fail to clean them. Try a Q-tip (cotton swab) with alcohol. Many use isopropyl, but I prefer 190 proof (95%) ethanol. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From nick.allen at comcast.net Mon Sep 13 21:13:21 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 21:13:21 -0500 Subject: Help Identifying this Engineering/Mainframe panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C8EDA41.3070708@comcast.net> Here is some more info on WHERE the panel MIGHT have come (input from the friend of Marty who sold me the panel): Nick- I don't think Marty knew WHAT it was from! I can only guess WHERE based on some places he was doing business. Ga Tech (first guess) Lockheed Grumman Pratt Savannah River Plant Then again, it could have come through other hands first... Possibly some GA state agency through GADOAS surplus disposition or pretty much anywhere in the south east or mid-west if he picked it up at a swap meet. I wish I could be of more help. From bear at typewritten.org Tue Sep 14 02:35:03 2010 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 00:35:03 -0700 Subject: Help Identifying this Engineering/Mainframe panel In-Reply-To: <4C8EDA41.3070708@comcast.net> References: <4C8EDA41.3070708@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7C3D2DA3-3BBC-4A49-8250-F793A4878F2D@typewritten.org> On Sep 13, 2010, at 7:13 PM, Nick Allen wrote: > Here is some more info on WHERE the panel MIGHT have come (input > from the friend of Marty who sold me the panel): The only Multics site I know of that was in Georgia (Atlanta, even) was at Southern Company Services, Inc. -- the electric utility. ok bear From jonas at otter.se Tue Sep 14 07:17:09 2010 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 12:17:09 +0000 Subject: Mass spectrometers etc Message-ID: <10WiYMZ0.1284466629.1056120.jotter@howe.textdrive.com> On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 20:02:09 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > >Oh, I have one, but it's only a little 1cm radius one, designed mainly >for detecting the helium peak when looking for leaks. What I don't have is >a suitable vacuum pump (yet...) > You might be interested in this site (sorry it's a Web site with pictures and so on, some of it will probably be readable using Lynx, and it's in French to boot, I'm sure it would interest you however): http://paillard.claude.free.fr/ He makes his own triode valves (or tubes, for those of us who speak the other language known as English ;-) ) and in order to do that he has designed and built among other things his own high vacuum pumps. I'm sure you would be able to make one like his. /Jonas From nick.allen at comcast.net Tue Sep 14 08:20:34 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 08:20:34 -0500 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <4C8EBFD3.8080000@bitsavers.org> References: <4C8EBFD3.8080000@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4C8F76A2.9050201@comcast.net> Al, Do you know which board/component inside the Alto creates 5V from the incoming 15V? If you can describe it in detail, it will help me immensely (so I can diagnose the failed component). From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Sep 14 10:59:31 2010 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 11:59:31 -0400 Subject: Boeing tearing down plant in Seattle, piles of old computers... Message-ID: Article: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100914/ap_on_hi_te/us_boeing_plant2_1 Quote: "The huge production bays now store tools, vehicles and surplus office equipment, plus scattered piles of old computers and other castoffs." I wonder if there is anything really interesting in there. Bill Sudbrink From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 14 13:07:32 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 11:07:32 -0700 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <4C8F76A2.9050201@comcast.net> References: <4C8EBFD3.8080000@bitsavers.org> <4C8F76A2.9050201@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4C8FB9E4.7030604@bitsavers.org> On 9/14/10 6:20 AM, Nick Allen wrote: > Al, > > Do you know which board/component inside the Alto creates 5V from the incoming 15V? It is documented in the service manual. One of the PC boards has everything for the regulator except the pass transistors, which are on the heat sink on the back. From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Sep 14 14:23:00 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 12:23:00 -0700 Subject: Help Identifying this Engineering/Mainframe panel In-Reply-To: <4C8EDA41.3070708@comcast.net> References: <4C8EDA41.3070708@comcast.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Nick Allen > Sent: Monday, September 13, 2010 7:13 PM > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Help Identifying this Engineering/Mainframe panel > > Here is some more info on WHERE the panel MIGHT have come (input from > the friend of Marty who sold me the panel): > > Nick- > I don't think Marty knew WHAT it was from! I can only guess WHERE based > on some places he was doing business. > Ga Tech (first guess) > Lockheed > Grumman > Pratt > Savannah River Plant > Then again, it could have come through other hands first... > Possibly some GA state agency through GADOAS surplus disposition or > pretty much anywhere in the south east or mid-west if he picked it up > at > a swap meet. > I wish I could be of more help. The rotating assemblies remind me of the Sigma 36-bit machines.... -- Ian From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Sep 14 14:28:10 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 12:28:10 -0700 Subject: Help Identifying this Engineering/Mainframe panel In-Reply-To: References: <4C8EDA41.3070708@comcast.net> Message-ID: From:Ian King Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 12:23 PM > The rotating assemblies remind me of the Sigma 36-bit machines.... -- Ian Ian, the Sigmas are 16-bit (Sigma 2/3/5) or 32-bit (6/7/9). --rma From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Sep 14 14:37:39 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 12:37:39 -0700 Subject: Help Identifying this Engineering/Mainframe panel In-Reply-To: References: <4C8EDA41.3070708@comcast.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rich Alderson > Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 12:28 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Help Identifying this Engineering/Mainframe panel > > From:Ian King > Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 12:23 PM > > > The rotating assemblies remind me of the Sigma 36-bit machines.... - > - Ian > > Ian, the Sigmas are 16-bit (Sigma 2/3/5) or 32-bit (6/7/9). --rma Oops, my bad. That's right, they were 360-ish. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 14 15:03:43 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 21:03:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 9825 refurbishing In-Reply-To: <774604.66176.qm@web38106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> from "Dave" at Sep 13, 10 03:28:46 pm Message-ID: > That's right. The Extended I/O ROM is built in. Under the cover, the following > are listed: > 9872A plotter, Genereal I/O, Extended I/O, Adv. Programming, String, Sytem > Programming I can never rememebr all the suffix letters for the 9825 series :-). But from what I remember, the earlier/simpler machines ahve the HPL firmware in a modle that slots into the RHS of the machine. The memroy boards in the 'stack' are just RAM, either 4K or 8K words. All extension ROms have to be added by front port modules. Later machines have a ROM/RAM board on top of the 'stack' It contains the HPL firmware and most of the extnsrtion ROMs. IIRC there's a DIP switch to select between the 9862 and 9872 plotter ROMs. The RHS module is not used, there's a cover clipped over the hole, and a couple of track cuts on the processor board to disable it (these cuts my be hiddeb my the CPU hybrid. The top model (IMHO) has thatr with another special 16K word RAM board under the ROM/RAM board. With that one you get soemthing like 31K words of RAM _and_ almost all the ROMs. > > >From the hp9825.com site, I gather that it should be possible to transfer > programs to and from the 9825 in ASCII format via the serial card and > some Sytem > Programming ROM routine. Not exactly the same as mass storage, but > better than nothing. Yes, look at the STORE keyword... > > > >> It's also advisable to add a crowbar circuit to the psu the 723 regulator > >> IC's and power transistors don't life forever. When they go you will be > >> grateful for adding the crowbar circuitry. > > > Seconded! > > I plan to do this. Any pointers from those who have done the mod? I've not actuiaslly done it, but I will do before I run the machines again. I would have thoght the traditional SCR + resisotr + zener crowbar is all that's needed. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 14 15:28:59 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 21:28:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cleaning floppy drives In-Reply-To: <201009140433.o8E4X8Q2014222@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> from "Hollandia@ccountry.net" at Sep 13, 10 09:33:10 pm Message-ID: > > As far as I know, all of the vendors of the "cleaning diskettes" that were > available have stopped making them. At last ! > > Does anyone know of a source? Nop, thankfully. I value my drive heads too much. Doing a head replacement nad alignment is a long job. > > Failing that, what is the correct way of cleaning a floppy drive? What I have always done -- on all sizes of floppy drive, is to take the drive out of the casing, take off the cover and/or logic board if necesary, and then clean the heads witha cotton bud (Q-tip) soaked in propan-2-ol (isopropyl alcohol, isopropanol) Some manufacturers specifically tell you not to do this for fear of damagingthe gimbal spring for the upper head, but I've neer had any problems. Of course you take care and don't exert much force on the upper head. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 14 15:35:10 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 21:35:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Mass spectrometers etc In-Reply-To: <10WiYMZ0.1284466629.1056120.jotter@howe.textdrive.com> from "Jonas Otter" at Sep 14, 10 12:17:09 pm Message-ID: > >Oh, I have one, but it's only a little 1cm radius one, designed mainly > >for detecting the helium peak when looking for leaks. What I don't have is > >a suitable vacuum pump (yet...) > > > > You might be interested in this site (sorry it's a Web site with > pictures and so on, some of it will probably be readable using Lynx, and > it's in French to boot, I'm sure it would interest you however): > http://paillard.claude.free.fr/ Thanks, I will take a look... I am sure I can find some way to view it... > > He makes his own triode valves (or tubes, for those of us who speak the > other language known as English ;-) ) and in order to do that he has > designed and built among other things his own high vacuum pumps. I'm > sure you would be able to make one like his. That sounds like fun :-). I've been re-reading 'Instrumnts of Amplification' recently, but in that book, the author bought a second-hand rotary vacuum pump (which doesn't really give a hard enough vaduum anyway...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 14 15:38:25 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 21:38:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <4C8F76A2.9050201@comcast.net> from "Nick Allen" at Sep 14, 10 08:20:34 am Message-ID: > > Al, > > Do you know which board/component inside the Alto creates 5V from > the incoming 15V? If you can describe it in detail, it will help me > immensely (so I can diagnose the failed component). I beleive it's a circuit (more than one component is involved) inside the Diablo drive. Certainly the Model 30s I used on a PDP11 only took +/-15V from the PSU. You need to get the service manual for the deive (Eric Smith suggested there's something of use on bitsavers) and see how the 5V is produced. Note that the fault may well not be in that section. It's entirely possible for excessive loading (say a very leay capacitor) to pull the output of the regualtor cirucit down so that it can't supply 5V properly. Before you start replacing parts you, as ever, need to do some tests (Yes, I know this is not the way it's done these days, but it's the way i do it, and it's never failed me...) -tony From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 14 17:48:23 2010 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 15:48:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP 9825 refurbishing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <540145.80661.qm@web38101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > >> It's also advisable to add a crowbar circuit to the psu the 723 regulator > >> IC's and power transistors don't life forever. When they go you will be > >> grateful for adding the crowbar circuitry. > > > Seconded! > > I plan to do this. Any pointers from those who have done the mod? I've not actuiaslly done it, but I will do before I run the machines again. I would have thoght the traditional SCR + resisotr + zener crowbar is all that's needed. -tony Yeah, but when it comes down to the nuts and bolts of it, we have to figure what threshold we want for each crowbar, and also how to physically cram it in. There's not much space in there, and I hate to cut traces and have fat wires all over the place. I'm thinking the best options to add the crowbar circuits would be: 1) (No mods to the original parts) Build the circuits on a PCB with a connector on one end, and contact fingers on the other end for the harness. 2) Or (easier to hand-build) remove the connector from the harness, and solder the wires directly to a PCB with the circuitry and a connector to plug onto the PSU. Also, it's good to know which outputs really need the crowbar. For example, -12V is regulated to -5V with a Zener, but is also separately regulated on each RAM board, so is it important to protect the -5V? What's using it? Rik indicated that if the -12V supply fails, the failure mode is towards 0V, which can damage the RAM boards. Does that mean the best way to protect that circuit is to build the circuit relative to the unregulated -20V from the transformer? Are the RAM circuits OK with that? Finally, some of the circuits are fused (+12/+7V), so it may be enough to place tack a hefty Zener across the output in some cases to blow the fuse. By the way, does anyone have full schematics for this machine? I am going off the service manual scan from the HP calculator museum (Great work, David Hicks!). It would be nice to get the interfacing info for the ROM modules and the I/O ports. -Dave From rmay635703a at yahoo.com Tue Sep 14 18:39:31 2010 From: rmay635703a at yahoo.com (Ry May) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 16:39:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to repair Tektronix 4696 inkjet and what to use for the cleaner fluid cartridge? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <927232.94591.qm@web113818.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> The maintenance fluid is sucked in each time you turn the printer on and expelled at some point.? Basically the print heads sit in a bath of it while not doing anything or while at the carriage return position,? the printer draws the maintenance fluid from the cartridge (which is a plastic bag) and expells it into the same container but on the outside of the plastic bag, one instruction warned not to turn the printer on and off too much and I found out the hard way why as a bunch of colorfull maintenance fluid spilled all over the table. My main interest was figuring out how to dissassemble the machine, at one point there was a maintenance manual for the 4695, sadly the archive that had it didn't seem to want to put it up for download. Cheers Ryan From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 19:47:08 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 19:47:08 -0500 Subject: Cleaning floppy drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C90178C.50700@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> Failing that, what is the correct way of cleaning a floppy drive? > > What I have always done -- on all sizes of floppy drive, is to take the > drive out of the casing, take off the cover and/or logic board if > necesary, and then clean the heads witha cotton bud (Q-tip) soaked in > propan-2-ol (isopropyl alcohol, isopropanol) Some manufacturers > specifically tell you not to do this for fear of damagingthe gimbal > spring for the upper head, but I've neer had any problems. Of course you > take care and don't exert much force on the upper head. Seconded (for what it's worth) - that's my approach, and I've never damaged a drive that way either. Sometimes the hub area attracts crud and can use a clean too. Some drives are better than others when it comes to access to the heads... cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 14 20:12:55 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 18:12:55 -0700 Subject: Cleaning floppy drives In-Reply-To: <4C90178C.50700@gmail.com> References: , <4C90178C.50700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C8FBB27.29938.273EAE3@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Sep 2010 at 19:47, Jules Richardson wrote: > Seconded (for what it's worth) - that's my approach, and I've never > damaged a drive that way either. Sometimes the hub area attracts crud > and can use a clean too. Some drives are better than others when it > comes to access to the heads... Disagree on the applicator--I use a fiber optic swab; has a polyurethane sponge on the tip rather than cotton, which can leave fibers behind. I'm still using Freon TF, BTW. Laid in a big supply when it became illegal to sell. Perhaps incandescent lamps will be next... FWIW --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Sep 14 20:23:33 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 02:23:33 +0100 Subject: DiscFerret update: PCB done! In-Reply-To: <1b06865351.harten@injectstar.de> References: <4C81685E.13782.2C632DA@cclist.sydex.com> <4C840C37.9080306@gmail.com> <4C853B7A.8060102@philpem.me.uk> <1b06865351.harten@injectstar.de> Message-ID: <4C902015.3000803@philpem.me.uk> On 08/09/10 13:07, Harten wrote: > Why not using a professional company for making your PCB, where you can > ask, if everything is o.k. with the layout-data. > > We do business with EPN (www.epn.de) since 1998 and are fully satisfied. I'm probably going to have the full production run done through either Eurocircuits, Gold Phoenix, or one of the UK manufacturers (Spirit Circuits aka PCBSnap, Newbury Electronics aka PCBTrain, Photomechanical Services, ...) The other issue at the moment is WEEE and RoHS compliance. RoHS is fairly easy (don't use SnPb solder, make sure parts are RoHS compliant...) but I'm having a hell of a time figuring out what exactly I need to do to appease the Gods of WEEE... EMC compliance is another matter entirely, although I'm pretty sure the two dozen or so decoupling capacitors (they cost less than a penny each, so why not have one per Vcc line?) and the massive ground plane are going to obliterate any chance this thing has of radiating anything... Even if it does, the spiffy metal instrument case should provide adequate shielding. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Sep 14 21:09:17 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 03:09:17 +0100 Subject: DiscFerret update: PCB done! In-Reply-To: <4C824DB3.5050400@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C81AA10.5030705@philpem.me.uk> <4C824DB3.5050400@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C902ACD.8040804@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys -- it's nearly 3AM here, I'm about to fall asleep, and I figure I should send an update... Here's the to-do list as it stands: **Get some prototypes made up.** I'm half way through sorting out my component boxes; I need to find a few DiscFerret parts which appear to have scuttled off to join the circus, but other than that, job's a good'un. The first run of PCBs are due in today. I should hopefully have the PSU section up and running within a couple of hours of the boards arriving, and (all being well) a DiscFerret doing USB enumeration by midnight. **Port the FPGA HDL-code.** Done this. Perfect compile, first-time. There are a few timing issues with the MFM sync-word detector, but a bit of logic optimisation and PLL-elimination (read: recalculating the DPLL tap points for a different clock frequency/data rate ratio) should fix those. **Port the MCU firmware.** I'm going to do a partial-rewrite on this. The original microcontroller code is pure, unadulterated evil. It's commented, but it's still evil. **Add write support.** Still need to port this from the FD1. I want to get the hardware reading discs before I add write support. It's an attempt to avoid Creeping Featuritis (where features are added relentlessly, and none of them work right). **Documentation.** I've got an artist working on a logo, found a nice font (URW Neustadt), and rigged up some OpenOffice templates for the documentation. Just need to write up the documentation! **Code** I'm thinking about doing a complete rewrite on DiscAPI and MfmDecode. The original code was submitted as part of my university project, and obtaining a suitable copyright release is proving to be difficult. **Pre-orders** I have a few beta-testers who will be receiving a prototype DiscFerret once I have some built-and-tested units sorted out. Once I've heard back from the Beta Team, I'll probably start taking pre-orders of various forms: - Bare PCB - PCB with switch-mode PSU chip mounted (it's the only part that can't be easily installed with a soldering iron) - Kit of parts (SMPSU chip pre-mounted) - Fully assembled PCB - Fully assembled unit Comments on which one of these you'd be most likely to buy would be appreciated -- either reply to this message, or send a new message to discferret at philpem.me.uk. Thank-you and goodnight! :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 01:05:54 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 02:05:54 -0400 Subject: MicroVAX 2000 ROM placement question Message-ID: Hi, All, I've been trying to dust off a MicroVAX 2000 for VCFmw, and so far, all I've accomplished is literally getting the dust off. This unit was one I tried to install the SCSI-enabled patched boot ROMs in some time back. I _thought_ I had arranged the original ROMs in the same pattern, but it's possible with all the swapping, I got some mixed up. I have checked (and re-downloaded) all the ROMs I have - one factory set (23-092E7-00 through 23-095E7-00) and one patched set. Cross-checking with the Technical Reference manual (EK-VTTAA-TM-001) from Bitsavers, I have verified that all ROMs have reasonable contents in the first few bytes (there are three signature bytes, among other things). No matter which set I have installed, I cannot get the console to respond with the self-test info. Does anyone have a photograph of a KA410 board where the labels on the ROMs can be read? Alternately, does anyone have any docs with part numbers? I'm reasonably certain that the underlying hardware is functional and that I just need to re-install the ROMs correctly. Yes, I could try the lucky-dip method, but one of the ROMs is rather difficult to pull (owing to the memory interface connectors), and I'd rather not break a pin off while sequencing through a dozen chip swaps. I'd like to _know_ what goes where before I proceed (especially if I am wrong and I _do_ have a hardware fault). I don't have any video cables handy, but in case it does come down to testing with a tube vs a console terminal, I have a four-plane video interface in addition to the mono frame buffer all KA410s come with. I had just thought that it would be easy enough to use a BCC08 console cable and go from there (it's worked before). Thanks for any tips or pointers, -ethan P.S. - I've been delving into the guts of the machine deeply enough that I'm musing about what it would take to make a 16MB memory board that didn't respond in the lower 2MB (to work with the on-board memory). Static would be easy to interface, but the KA410 _does_ generate and pass along refresh signals, so something with 30-pin or 72-pin SIMMs shouldn't be that hard to whip up. I'm only considering it because my largest memory board is 4MB, and the current prices for an MS400-CA (12MB DEC board) are more than I'm personally willing to pay - I'll do without first (which is what I'm already doing ;-) P.P.S - this would probably all be moot if I had a SCSI-based MicroVAX slab of some sort, but I just haven't been in the right place at the right time. Perhaps some DEC gear will make an appearance at the VCF... From tim at tim-mann.org Tue Sep 14 14:38:54 2010 From: tim at tim-mann.org (Tim Mann) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 12:38:54 -0700 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto Message-ID: Probably not too useful a remark, but I remember from years ago when we had some Xerox Altos at the Stanford computer science department that the disk drives were very prone to head crashes. We were instructed to never attempt to remove the disk pack under penalty of flogging (or some less colorful words). So, I hope once Nick gets the voltage problem fixed, he's not disappointed to find out that disk doesn't work anyway. :-/ From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Wed Sep 15 01:22:04 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 23:22:04 -0700 Subject: MicroVAX 2000 ROM placement question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C90660C.5020300@mail.msu.edu> I grabbed my 2000 off the shelf and took a pic for you. http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/uvax2000/IMG_0464.JPG Looks like mine's been tampered with as well, but hopefully the labels help anyway... mine seem to have different numbers than the ones you describe; they're in the following order: 160E7 | 158E7 -------+-------- 161E7 | 159E7 (with the board oriented such that the ROMs are in the lower-right corner...) Josh On 9/14/2010 11:05 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hi, All, > > I've been trying to dust off a MicroVAX 2000 for VCFmw, and so far, > all I've accomplished is literally getting the dust off. > > This unit was one I tried to install the SCSI-enabled patched boot > ROMs in some time back. I _thought_ I had arranged the original ROMs > in the same pattern, but it's possible with all the swapping, I got > some mixed up. I have checked (and re-downloaded) all the ROMs I have > - one factory set (23-092E7-00 through 23-095E7-00) and one patched > set. Cross-checking with the Technical Reference manual > (EK-VTTAA-TM-001) from Bitsavers, I have verified that all ROMs have > reasonable contents in the first few bytes (there are three signature > bytes, among other things). No matter which set I have installed, I > cannot get the console to respond with the self-test info. > > Does anyone have a photograph of a KA410 board where the labels on the > ROMs can be read? Alternately, does anyone have any docs with part > numbers? I'm reasonably certain that the underlying hardware is > functional and that I just need to re-install the ROMs correctly. > Yes, I could try the lucky-dip method, but one of the ROMs is rather > difficult to pull (owing to the memory interface connectors), and I'd > rather not break a pin off while sequencing through a dozen chip > swaps. I'd like to _know_ what goes where before I proceed > (especially if I am wrong and I _do_ have a hardware fault). > > I don't have any video cables handy, but in case it does come down to > testing with a tube vs a console terminal, I have a four-plane video > interface in addition to the mono frame buffer all KA410s come with. > I had just thought that it would be easy enough to use a BCC08 console > cable and go from there (it's worked before). > > Thanks for any tips or pointers, > > -ethan > > P.S. - I've been delving into the guts of the machine deeply enough > that I'm musing about what it would take to make a 16MB memory board > that didn't respond in the lower 2MB (to work with the on-board > memory). Static would be easy to interface, but the KA410 _does_ > generate and pass along refresh signals, so something with 30-pin or > 72-pin SIMMs shouldn't be that hard to whip up. I'm only considering > it because my largest memory board is 4MB, and the current prices for > an MS400-CA (12MB DEC board) are more than I'm personally willing to > pay - I'll do without first (which is what I'm already doing ;-) > > P.P.S - this would probably all be moot if I had a SCSI-based MicroVAX > slab of some sort, but I just haven't been in the right place at the > right time. Perhaps some DEC gear will make an appearance at the > VCF... > From fryers at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 05:44:42 2010 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 10:44:42 +0000 Subject: Amstrad PPC640D available Cheltenham UK Message-ID: All, I have an Amstrad PPC640D with original box that I would like to pass on to someone. These are reasonably common and not that rare. It makes a great low power terminal (LCD screen) and real serial port, but that is about all I can say in it's favor. It will need to be collected in the next two weeks. If I don't hear anything this it will be going off to the small electricals bin at the local recycling centre this weekend. Thanks. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From jws at jwsss.com Wed Sep 15 02:16:56 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 00:16:56 -0700 Subject: odd SCSI drives + parts at friend's shop. Message-ID: <4C9072E8.2030106@jwsss.com> I spotted some 3 1/2" form factor drives that I think may be SCSI drives of the narrow "SCA" persuasion. I noted them mainly because they have a small looking black plastic connector similar to a centronics connector, with what appears to be a central male bar with contacts on it. It rang a bell about the discussion about such connectors in some Sparcbook laptops. Though the form factor is totally useless, it would be interesting if the bus was the same, and one could fab up a cable out of a dead sparcbook to such a drive. Just thinking. I have to grab the drives tomorrow and see what they are. No idea at all about whether they work, but they have been around for a long time. Also I have a line on a huge amount of recent junk, and am listing it on epay. It is way too new (except for technically some 2001 dual xeon dell serverboards). contact me off line for some quantum high capacity tape drives if interested. There are 17 to be had, and a deal on them. Jim From rescue at hawkmountain.net Wed Sep 15 07:04:36 2010 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 08:04:36 -0400 Subject: odd SCSI drives + parts at friend's shop. In-Reply-To: <4C9072E8.2030106@jwsss.com> References: <4C9072E8.2030106@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4C90B654.7070106@hawkmountain.net> jim s wrote: > I spotted some 3 1/2" form factor drives that I think may be SCSI > drives of the narrow "SCA" persuasion. I noted them mainly because > they have a small looking black plastic connector similar to a > centronics connector, with what appears to be a central male bar with > contacts on it. If you are saying they are like SCA, but narrower connector.... you've probably got fiberchannel drives there.... not SCSI. -- Curt From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Wed Sep 15 07:08:31 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 05:08:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Happy Birthday Apple IIgs In-Reply-To: <4C90B654.7070106@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <800396.1700.qm@web113519.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I made a small tribute to the Apple IIgs. It's 24 today and so I quickly put something together http://8bitaficionado.com/?p=189 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Sep 15 08:22:03 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 06:22:03 -0700 Subject: Mass spectrometers etc In-Reply-To: References: <10WiYMZ0.1284466629.1056120.jotter@howe.textdrive.com> from Message-ID: > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > > > >Oh, I have one, but it's only a little 1cm radius one, designed mainly > > >for detecting the helium peak when looking for leaks. What I don't have is > > >a suitable vacuum pump (yet...) > > > > > > > You might be interested in this site (sorry it's a Web site with > > pictures and so on, some of it will probably be readable using Lynx, and > > it's in French to boot, I'm sure it would interest you however): > > http://paillard.claude.free.fr/ > > Thanks, I will take a look... I am sure I can find some way to view it... > > > > > He makes his own triode valves (or tubes, for those of us who speak the > > other language known as English ;-) ) and in order to do that he has > > designed and built among other things his own high vacuum pumps. I'm > > sure you would be able to make one like his. > > That sounds like fun :-). I've been re-reading 'Instrumnts of > Amplification' recently, but in that book, the author bought a > second-hand rotary vacuum pump (which doesn't really give a hard enough > vaduum anyway...) > > -tony Hi You need to find a diffussion pump. These will get you down to 10-6 torr without traps. With traps, you can reach 10-9. Of course, if you have a high speed turbo pump, you can do similar but these are real expensive, even used. Most diffussion pumps can be had for scrap value, used. Dwight From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Sep 15 08:36:08 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 09:36:08 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday Apple IIgs In-Reply-To: <800396.1700.qm@web113519.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <800396.1700.qm@web113519.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C90CBC8.1090902@atarimuseum.com> Nice! -- Just posted up onto my facebook page.... Christian Liendo wrote: > I made a small tribute to the Apple IIgs. It's 24 today and so I quickly put something together > > http://8bitaficionado.com/?p=189 > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3136 - Release Date: 09/15/10 02:34:00 > > From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Wed Sep 15 09:01:48 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 07:01:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Happy Birthday Apple IIgs In-Reply-To: <4C90CBC8.1090902@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <202942.84081.qm@web113506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Thanks.. The IIc Plus is tomorrow, but I really can't say too much about it.. I am trying to put together the anniversaries of many computers and probably make a calendar to keep track. --- On Wed, 9/15/10, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > From: Curt @ Atari Museum > Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Apple IIgs > To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Wednesday, September 15, 2010, 9:36 AM > Nice!???-- Just posted > up onto my facebook page.... > > > > Christian Liendo wrote: > > I made a small tribute to the Apple IIgs. It's 24 > today and so I quickly put something together > > > > http://8bitaficionado.com/?p=189 > > > > > >? ? > ???------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus > Database: 271.1.1/3136 - Release Date: 09/15/10 02:34:00 > > > >??? From ragooman at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 09:08:04 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 10:08:04 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday Apple IIgs In-Reply-To: <202942.84081.qm@web113506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <4C90CBC8.1090902@atarimuseum.com> <202942.84081.qm@web113506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 10:01 AM, Christian Liendo < christian_liendo at yahoo.com> wrote: > Thanks.. The IIc Plus is tomorrow, but I really can't say too much about > it.. I am trying to put together the anniversaries of many computers and > probably make a calendar to keep track. > > anniversary calendar sounds good =Dan From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Sep 15 09:36:21 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 16:36:21 +0200 Subject: HP 9825 refurbishing In-Reply-To: <540145.80661.qm@web38101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <540145.80661.qm@web38101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001801cb54e3$60cd7ca0$226875e0$@xs4all.nl> Dave, At http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=171 at the documentation section you find the diagrams made by Tony. For the crowbar I use a zener SCR/Thyristor construction, I didn't made one for the negative voltages. But I have had one memory board destroyed due to a missing neg. voltage, I had to replace almost all the memory chips. If you search the archive you'll find the posts about it. I do have some spares if you need something let me know. -Rik From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Sep 15 11:15:46 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 12:15:46 -0400 Subject: converting RGBHV to RGBS -- anyone have 74HCT86's? Message-ID: <4C90F132.1070203@verizon.net> I've got a chinese converter(from ebay, recommended by a few here) that will take 15khz RGB video with composite sync and spit out VGA at ~32khz so a regular monitor can be used to display the signal. http://cgi.ebay.com/RGBS-CGA-EGA-YUV-VGA-converter-1-output-arcade-game-/250675162632?pt=Video_Games&hash=item3a5d676e08 The seller claims (and spec sheet does indeed look this way) that the RGBHV input must be 30khz+, but the RGBS input supports down to 14.5khz. I'm attempting to use this with my amiga, which sends out separate H and V SYNC signals but at 15.7khz. I found this schematic http://www.epanorama.net/circuits/vga2rgbs.html The simple VGA to RGB+CSYNC adapter TTL (which appears the same as the "Separate Sync to Composite Sync Adapter") I intend to build this, and see if this does the trick for me. This sound like a reasonable plan? Anyone happen to have a few 74HCT86's lying around? I can order them online but because they are under $0.50 a piece, and I'll likely have to pay a minimum order size fee plus S&H. Seems a waste for a dollar's worth of items. Thanks Keith in Pittsburgh, PA, USA From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 15 11:15:20 2010 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 09:15:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP 9825 refurbishing In-Reply-To: <001801cb54e3$60cd7ca0$226875e0$@xs4all.nl> References: <540145.80661.qm@web38101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <001801cb54e3$60cd7ca0$226875e0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <625002.47507.qm@web38101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> At http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=171 at the documentation section you find the diagrams made by Tony. For the crowbar I use a zener SCR/Thyristor construction, I didn't made one for the negative voltages. -Rik Wow, amazing. Those schematics are quite a piece of work, Tony! Did you service these machines professionally, or was that a labor of love, or both? I had seen the site, but didn't notice the buttons for documentation at the bottom! By the way, thanks to Rik and Tony for your very helpful pointers and responses. With this info, I should be able to rig up a ROM cartrige, in case I'm able to get my hands on images of the Matrix, Disk, and Network Analyzer control images. Best regards, Dave From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Sep 15 11:22:46 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 17:22:46 +0100 Subject: odd SCSI drives + parts at friend's shop. In-Reply-To: <4C9072E8.2030106@jwsss.com> Message-ID: jim s [jws at jwsss.com] wrote: > I spotted some 3 1/2" form factor drives that I think may be SCSI > drives of the narrow "SCA" persuasion. I noted them mainly > because they > have a small looking black plastic connector similar to a centronics > connector, with what appears to be a central male bar with > contacts on it. > > It rang a bell about the discussion about such connectors in some > Sparcbook laptops. > > Though the form factor is totally useless, it would be interesting if > the bus was the same, and one could fab up a cable out of a dead > sparcbook to such a drive. Just thinking. > > I have to grab the drives tomorrow and see what they are. No idea at > all about whether they work, but they have been around for a > long time. If the drives are the usual 3.5" HDD form factor (as you would find in a modern PC for example) and the connector is SCA-80 (i.e. takes up 75% or so of the rear width of the drive) then it's almost certainly SCSI and all you need is a cheap (~ ?5) adapter to hook it up to a SCSI-1 or SCSI-2 chain. If the connector is significantly narrower (noticeably less than 50% of the width of the drive) then it is SCA-40 and will almost certainly be Fibre Channel. Some Sun boxes apparently take FC drives and you can make an adapter to hook them up to an HBA in a PC. Interestingly I always thought that SCA-80 was a relatively recent addition to the SCSI fold, but a few months ago I acquired a Seagate(?) 1GB drive with an SCA-80 interface. So it's obviously not as recent as I thought. Antonio From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 11:39:38 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 12:39:38 -0400 Subject: odd SCSI drives + parts at friend's shop. In-Reply-To: References: <4C9072E8.2030106@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On 9/15/10, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > jim s [jws at jwsss.com] wrote: >> I spotted some 3 1/2" form factor drives that I think may be SCSI >> drives of the narrow "SCA" persuasion... small looking black plastic >> connector similar to a centronics connector, with what appears to >> be a central male bar with contacts on it. >> > If the drives are the usual 3.5" HDD form factor (as you would find in > a modern PC for example) and the connector is SCA-80 (i.e. takes up > 75% or so of the rear width of the drive) then it's almost certainly > SCSI and all you need is a cheap (~ ?5) adapter to hook it up to a > SCSI-1 or SCSI-2 chain. Yep. > If the connector is significantly narrower > (noticeably less than 50% of the width of the drive) then it is SCA-40 > and will almost certainly be Fibre Channel. Yep. And Seagate drives will usually have a "-FC" designator (SCA-80 drives have a "-WC", IIRC) > Some Sun boxes apparently > take FC drives and you can make an adapter to hook them up to an HBA > in a PC. Yes. ISTR machines of the SPARCserver 3000 and 5000 era (c. 1996) might have been able to take the -FC drives directly, or at least through an available drive shelf product of the same vintage. Stuff from the early 1990s was pretty much all parallel SCSI, either narrow or wide (I forget exactly how old wide-SCSI is). > Interestingly I always thought that SCA-80 was a relatively recent > addition to the SCSI fold, but a few months ago I acquired a Seagate(?) > 1GB drive with an SCA-80 interface. So it's obviously not as recent > as I thought. That connector has been around for at least 15 years. I think I saw a 500MB Seagate drive with an SCA connector once, but those weren't common. There were lots of 1GB and 2GB drives with SCA connectors. The oldest machine I've personally used that had internal SCA connectors is a SPARC5. -ethan From nick.allen at comcast.net Wed Sep 15 10:42:02 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 10:42:02 -0500 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C90E94A.20902@comcast.net> Thanks EVERYONE for all your help and suggestions! Armed with the schematics recommended, I will begin to troubleshoot, hopefully I can get some assistance and expertise during the Midwest Vintage Computer Festival this Saturday!!! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 12:07:25 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 13:07:25 -0400 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <4C90E94A.20902@comcast.net> References: <4C90E94A.20902@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 9/15/10, Nick Allen wrote: > Thanks EVERYONE for all your help and suggestions! Armed with the > schematics recommended, I will begin to troubleshoot, hopefully I can > get some assistance and expertise during the Midwest Vintage Computer > Festival this Saturday!!! See you there! (I've never seen an Alto up close) -ethan From ragooman at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 12:28:22 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 13:28:22 -0400 Subject: converting RGBHV to RGBS -- anyone have 74HCT86's? In-Reply-To: <4C90F132.1070203@verizon.net> References: <4C90F132.1070203@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 12:15 PM, Keith M wrote: > I've got a chinese converter(from ebay, recommended by a few here) that > will take 15khz RGB video with composite sync and spit out VGA at ~32khz so > a regular monitor can be used to display the signal. > > I'm not at home yet, so I can't check my manuals. that schematic shows 74LS86, any reason why you want to switch to HCT ? I have boatloads of 86's and LS86's That schematic is VGA->RGBS which is the opposite. I use that converter board too. It does goes down to 15khz, that's how arcades are converted to use LCD's. But I haven't used it yet with my 1000. What I understand is that you would want to use this to be able to display the unsupported screenmodes at the varying scan freq's. They do make a Amiga RGB to VGA Monitor Adapter for alot cheaper, about $25 http://tinyurl.com/295vhzc The Amiga is 31.5Khz. I was looking to get one for my 1000. But since this is a straight wired adapter, it only supports the OS supported screen modes at the one scan freq. This is the rgb connector pinout if you want to wire it http://tinyurl.com/28w8spn =Dan across the river in Pittsburgh --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From ragooman at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 12:36:56 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 13:36:56 -0400 Subject: converting RGBHV to RGBS -- anyone have 74HCT86's? In-Reply-To: References: <4C90F132.1070203@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Dan Roganti wrote: > > The Amiga is 31.5Khz. > oops big typo, meant to say 15khz =Dan From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Sep 15 13:05:58 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 14:05:58 -0400 Subject: converting RGBHV to RGBS -- anyone have 74HCT86's? In-Reply-To: References: <4C90F132.1070203@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C910B06.9070108@verizon.net> On 9/15/2010 1:28 PM, Dan Roganti wrote: > I'm not at home yet, so I can't check my manuals. > that schematic shows 74LS86, > any reason why you want to switch to HCT ? The parts list below the schematic says LS or HCT is acceptable. For new designs, I thought either 74HC or 74HCT parts were best. My limited understanding is that their power draw is lower, accept both CMOS and TTL level signals, have a wider power supply range, have high sink/source ratings, etc. Note that I'm just regurgitating what I read online, I really have no experience with this stuff. > That schematic is VGA->RGBS which is the opposite. The main point is that the Amiga has analog RGB outputs, and separate horizontal and vertical syncs. I need those syncs combined into a composite signal. > I use that converter board too. It does goes down to 15khz, that's how > arcades are converted to use LCD's. It goes down to 15khz when you feed it a COMPOSITE SYNC signal. It you give it separate RGBHV signal(which comes out of the Amiga on the DB23), it only goes down to 30khz, hence my problem. > But I haven't used it yet with my 1000. > What I understand is that you would want to use this to be able to display > the unsupported screenmodes at the varying scan freq's. I'd like to attach an LCD to the amiga. The output from my amiga is usually 320 x 240, and so two things have to happen: 1> 15.7khz has to be doubled to something in the horiz freq range that the monitor can handle. 2> 320 x 240 has to be scaled to something the monitor will take natively, likely just 640 x 480. > They do make a Amiga RGB to VGA Monitor Adapter for alot cheaper, about $25 > http://tinyurl.com/295vhzc While this might do the appropriate pin-changing to get the amiga video signals onto a standard VGA connector, it does absolutely nothing for affecting the horiz sync rate which is problem numero uno! Thanks Keith From spedraja at ono.com Wed Sep 15 13:34:16 2010 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 20:34:16 +0200 Subject: DEC PDP spare boards & backplane for sale on ebay In-Reply-To: <4C910756.7080500@comcast.net> References: <4C910756.7080500@comcast.net> Message-ID: I got one PDP8E lacking of some of these boards. Sergio 2010/9/15 Nick Allen > Just listed some spare DEC PDP parts on ebay, I haven't had much use for > them, hopefully they will find a good home! > > DEC PDP G227, G619, G104 Core Memory 4k Words Board < > http://cgi.ebay.com/DEC-PDP-G227-G619-G104-Core-Memory-4k-Words-Board-/270635762364?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f032602bc>: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/DEC-PDP-G227-G619-G104-Core-Memory-4k-Words-Board-/270635762364?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f032602bc > > DEC PDP G918 fc photo amplifier Board < > http://cgi.ebay.com/DEC-PDP-G918-fc-photo-amplifier-Board-/270635763952?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f032608f0>: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/DEC-PDP-G918-fc-photo-amplifier-Board-/270635763952?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f032608f0 > > DEC PDP G930 Board < > http://cgi.ebay.com/DEC-PDP-G930-Board-/270635765207?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f03260dd7>: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/DEC-PDP-G930-Board-/270635765207?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f03260dd7 > > DEC PDP M8330 KK8E - Timing board < > http://cgi.ebay.com/DEC-PDP-M8330-KK8E-Timing-board-/270635766119?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f03261167>: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/DEC-PDP-M8330-KK8E-Timing-board-/270635766119?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f03261167 > > DEC PDP M8350 KA8E External positive I/O bus interface < > http://cgi.ebay.com/DEC-PDP-M8350-KA8E-External-positive-I-O-bus-interface-/270635766749?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f032613dd>: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/DEC-PDP-M8350-KA8E-External-positive-I-O-bus-interface-/270635766749?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f032613dd > > DEC PDP W940 IC Board < > http://cgi.ebay.com/DEC-PDP-W940-IC-Board-/270635767858?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f03261832>: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/DEC-PDP-W940-IC-Board-/270635767858?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f03261832 > > DEC PDP W990 IC Board < > http://cgi.ebay.com/DEC-PDP-W990-IC-Board-/270635768387?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f03261a43>: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/DEC-PDP-W990-IC-Board-/270635768387?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f03261a43 > > DEC PDP Omnibus 10 slot Backplane < > http://cgi.ebay.com/DEC-PDP-Omnibus-10-slot-Backplane-/270635769866?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f0326200a > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/DEC-PDP-Omnibus-10-slot-Backplane-/270635769866?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f0326200a > From ragooman at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 13:41:05 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 14:41:05 -0400 Subject: converting RGBHV to RGBS -- anyone have 74HCT86's? In-Reply-To: <4C910B06.9070108@verizon.net> References: <4C90F132.1070203@verizon.net> <4C910B06.9070108@verizon.net> Message-ID: I just wire a straight 7486 here to combine the H, V sync to get composite out, with a 75ohm matching resistor on the output whenever I hook up a monitor. It has enough power to run the signal over the cable about 3ft. No need for the extra components, RC delay in that schematic. Then depending if you have pos. or neg. sync's you need a 2nd one to invert, as in that schematic(4th 86) - that all what's done on a arcade board. I don't know off hand if the Amiga has pos or neg syncs. your welcome to have a few '86's , just let me know, I'll drop them in the mail. =Dan --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 14:10:30 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 14:10:30 -0500 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: References: <4C90E94A.20902@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 12:07 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > See you there! ?(I've never seen an Alto up close) Certainly not outside a museum. CHM probably has one/many, and I know I saw one at the Smithsonian's exhibit, which was partially closed at the time but I snuck a peek behind the curtains and there was the Alto :) -- jht From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 14:33:49 2010 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 20:33:49 +0100 Subject: Any interest in Research Machines PCs? Message-ID: Folks, Today I discovered I had more RM Nimbus machines than I actually need, as well as a few Acorn Archimedes. Any interest? The RMs are mostly PC-1 which is a pretty well specced 80186-based machine but there's also an AX/2, VX/2 and a microchannel M-series. Not strictly home based machines so I guess I should pass them onto someone! Cheers, -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home? computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 15 13:14:00 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 19:14:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: from "Tim Mann" at Sep 14, 10 12:38:54 pm Message-ID: > > Probably not too useful a remark, but I remember from years ago when we had > some Xerox Altos at the Stanford computer science department that the disk > drives were very prone to head crashes. We were instructed to never attempt I am suprised... These drives are similar technology and bit density to the DEC RK05, and presumably have a similar head flying height. My experience of RK05s is that they don't crash that often, and when they do the heads are not always destroyed. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 15 14:23:49 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 20:23:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Amstrad PPC640D available Cheltenham UK In-Reply-To: from "Simon Fryer" at Sep 15, 10 10:44:42 am Message-ID: > > All, > > I have an Amstrad PPC640D with original box that I would like to pass > on to someone. > Ah ues, the only laptop I've ever seen that's wider than a PDP11 (I am not joking) > These are reasonably common and not that rare. It makes a great low > power terminal (LCD screen) and real serial port, but that is about > all I can say in it's favor. I actually use one for aligning disk drives. I have the single-drive model, and I added a DC37 connector on the blanking plate for rhe second drive so as to be able cable up the drive I am testing. I have a thing called 'Microtest' which is an ADC box and special software. The ADC unit links ot the seiral port and has test leads you connec to the drive under test, the software runs on any PC compatible, even an XT, so it'll run on the Amstrad PPC. I have the programmer's reference and service manuals for it, thankfully. Many of the ASICs are the same as ones used in Amstrad desktop machines. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 15 14:30:26 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 20:30:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Mass spectrometers etc In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Sep 15, 10 06:22:03 am Message-ID: > You need to find a diffussion pump. These will get you down to Indeed I do (My father spoet most of his working days on high vacuum systems., I think I'd head ofa 'diff pump' before I even went to school... OIl, from choice. Mercury vapour, even inside a vacuum system (and some will, alas, end up in the backing rotary pump) is not something I particualrly keen on.... There is the minor problem of 'where the heck do I set up a vacuum system, along with all the other things I am working on' :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 15 14:05:39 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 20:05:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 9825 refurbishing In-Reply-To: <540145.80661.qm@web38101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> from "Dave" at Sep 14, 10 03:48:23 pm Message-ID: > > > > > >> It's also advisable to add a crowbar circuit to the psu the 723 regulator > > >> IC's and power transistors don't life forever. When they go you will be > > >> grateful for adding the crowbar circuitry. > > > > > Seconded! > > > > I plan to do this. Any pointers from those who have done the mod? > > I've not actuiaslly done it, but I will do before I run the machines > again. I would have thoght the traditional SCR + resisotr + zener crowbar > is all that's needed. > > -tony > > Yeah, but when it comes down to the nuts and bolts of it, we have to figure what > threshold we want for each crowbar, and also how to physically cram it in. True. The SCR is going to take about 0.6V to trigger, so I'd probably use seners equal to or slightly above the nominal rail voltage. Some later HP machines (the 9826/9836 being the one I remember, mainly because I was giving a talk on it a few days ago) have one SCR connected across the _input_ to the regulator (that is across the main smoothing capacitor) with zeners from teh gate to each of the output rails. If any rail goes overvoltage, the SCR fires and hopefully blows the fuse. Thsi might be worth considering for the 9825 too. > There's not much space in there, and I hate to cut traces and have fat wires all > over the place. I'm thinking the best options to add the crowbar circuits would > be: Remember the crowbar goes in parallel with things (you need to pick up the votage rails to sense them, and have an SCR which shorts a suitable point (either hte rail or the input to the PSU) to ground. So there shouldn't be any need to cut traces. I wonder if there's enough space to build this as a pgyback to the PSU regulator PCB... > Also, it's good to know which outputs really need the crowbar. For example, > -12V is regulated to -5V with a Zener, but is also separately regulated on each > RAM board, so is it important to protect the -5V? What's using it? I will have to shcem schematics. It wouldn't suprise me if it wa used by the procesosr hybrid module or soemthing like that. > Finally, some of the circuits are fused (+12/+7V), so it may be enough to place > tack a hefty Zener across the output in some cases to blow the fuse. I think I would add the normal SCR crowbar. > > By the way, does anyone have full schematics for this machine? I am going off Yes. There's a lot of information available from http://www.hpmuseum.net/ This is the Australian HP Museum site, and is somewhat hard to find your way around at first. I normally follow the 'documentation' link from the homeapge and look down the list (since not all manuals are listed under all the machines they apply to -- an obvious example is that since the HP9831 hardware is almost indentical to that of the HP9825, you would need ot look at the latter if you want manuals on the former...) Don;'t try this site on a dial-up connection :-). There's a lot of interesting stuff there, and if you're like me you'll read all sorts of related manuals for intereast... Anyway, I beleive you can get some HP blueprints from there which apply to the early versions of the 9825. You can also get 'my' schematics for the machine (all versions that I've seen) if you can stick my handwriting. > the service manual scan from the HP calculator museum (Great work, David The service manuals is a boardswapper guide (and is available for free from the site I mentioned). It dors contain some useful information though. One thing that is there (IIRC), is the schemeatic for the printer test board. I really must make one sometime... > Hicks!). It would be nice to get the interfacing info for the ROM modules and > the I/O ports. In general the I/O module manuals contain schematics... The I/O bus is not hard to figure out from that. The ROM modules have internal address latches and address decoders. So far I've seen 3 types. One uses a pair of HP custom ROM chips (16 bits wide, with intenral latches and decoders). Another uses more conventional ROM chips and standard glue logic. And the last is bank-switched, with the bank control logic being standard TTL parts .Schematics for the first 2 are in the HP9825 diagram set I mentioend, I don't think the last one (I came across it in the later disk drive ROM) is up there yet, but if you need it, I can tell you (off-list) who to contact. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 15 14:35:01 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 20:35:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Happy Birthday Apple IIgs In-Reply-To: from "Dan Roganti" at Sep 15, 10 10:08:04 am Message-ID: > > Thanks.. The IIc Plus is tomorrow, but I really can't say too much about > > it.. I am trying to put together the anniversaries of many computers and > > probably make a calendar to keep track. > > > > > anniversary calendar sounds good A 'classic computer wall calendar' would be rather fun... AA couple of years back, PPC (I think) sold one for HP handhelds. The picture for each month was a family of HP calcualtors, My only moan was that they only listed the various religious festivals on the various days. I would have liked to ahve seen things like 'HP41C introduced 1979' o nthe appropriate day too. I would also like one for more general clasisc computing. Every known date of introduction, etc. And there's no shortage of interesting machines to photograph (inside and out...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 15 14:11:56 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 20:11:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cleaning floppy drives In-Reply-To: <4C90178C.50700@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Sep 14, 10 07:47:08 pm Message-ID: > Seconded (for what it's worth) - that's my approach, and I've never damaged a > drive that way either. Sometimes the hub area attracts crud and can use a > clean too. Some drives are better than others when it comes to access to the > heads... In som,e cases the slide rails that the heads run on need clenaing too. It's wlaso worth cleaning the dust out of any optical sensorts (track 0, write protect). In the case of Sony 3.5" full-height drives, it's _essential_ to strip down the eject mechanism and clean off the hardened grease. Not doing this can cause hte upper head to get ripped off when you eject a disk! Not what hte OP was sksing, but quite often I totally strip down the drives in a newly-acquired machine and clean all the parts separtely. Only do this if you have the alignemtn disks and know how to use them!. A hint here is to assume the drive was aligned at the start, and mark the positions of the stepper motor, trakc 0 sensor, etc before taking them apart. Assuming the steper works, before dismanyling, use an exerciser to go to track 0 and measure the clearance between the head carriage and some bit of th chassis with feeler gauges. This is not accurate enough to avoid the need to do an alignment, but it will mean that when you put the CE disk in, you are close enough to see the pattern. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 15 14:41:22 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 20:41:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 9825 refurbishing In-Reply-To: <625002.47507.qm@web38101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> from "Dave" at Sep 15, 10 09:15:20 am Message-ID: > Wow, amazing. Those schematics are quite a piece of work, Tony! Did you If you poke arouind that site some more, you'll dins that the 9825 is not the only machine I've pulled apart... I think somebody claimed there's over 100 'HPxx_SchematicsByTonyDuell' files on that site. > service these machines professionally, or was that a labor of love, or both? I have never serivced any machines professionally.. I traced out the schematics intitially to maitai~n my own machines (I like the engineering qulaitiy of _old_ HP hardwareand then decided to share them. In a couple of cases I produced schematics that I didn't need at the time, just for interest... I was aseisted by another HPCC memeber who scans my diagrams (I don't have a scanner, or anything modern like that). You can buy a DVD-ROM of them from HPCC, the profits go to the club, BTW, not to me. > > I had seen the site, but didn't notice the buttons for documentation at the > bottom! By the way, thanks to Rik and Tony for your very helpful pointers and > responses. Poke around that site. There's a lot of interesting stuff there, on all sorts of HP machines nad peripherals. Be warned you will spend houes looking at the manuals, and an equal time trying to find some of the items on E-bay... > > With this info, I should be able to rig up a ROM cartrige, in case I'm able to > get my hands on images of the Matrix, Disk, and Network Analyzer control images. Good luck. And feel free to ask if there's anything you want to know... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 15 15:04:46 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 21:04:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: converting RGBHV to RGBS -- anyone have 74HCT86's? In-Reply-To: from "Dan Roganti" at Sep 15, 10 02:41:05 pm Message-ID: > > I just wire a straight 7486 here to combine the H, V sync to get composite Assuming you just need a single XOR gate (which is normal for this), then you could use the 4 NAND gates in a 74x00 to make one. The schematic is well-knon, but in case you've not coem across it : ---------+-----------|\ | | >o---+ | +---|/ | +-|\ | +--|\ | >o--+ | >o---- +-|/ | +--|/ | +---|\ | | | >o----+ --------+-----------|/ If you need an XNOR gate, I think you can use a similar circuit with 4 NOR gates (e.g. all the gates in a 74x02) Also, inverting an odd number of the 2 inputs and output (that is, a single input, the output, or all 3) will change an XOR to an XNOR or vice versa, while invertian and even number (both inputs, or one input and the output) ahs no effect. . -tony From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 15 15:51:22 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 21:51:22 +0100 Subject: Any interest in Research Machines PCs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C9131CA.7090301@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Adrian Graham wrote: > Folks, > > Today I discovered I had more RM Nimbus machines than I actually need, > as well as a few Acorn Archimedes. Any interest? Might be worth posting on the BBC users forum at http://www.stairwaytohell.com I can post on your behalf if you want. > The RMs are mostly PC-1 which is a pretty well specced 80186-based > machine but there's also an AX/2, VX/2 and a microchannel M-series. > Not strictly home based machines so I guess I should pass them onto > someone! I have a few RM machines too, couple of the original 186 based machines, one of the later slimline ones, one of the 386 MCA ones and an AX. If you have any spares for the 186 I may be interested, I also have a pile of ram for both the 186 series, and the MCA based machines. Adrian, I have passed on your details (a copy of this posting) to someone that has been in email contact with me, as they have a Nimbus but no floppy controler etc, so they may well be in contact. Cheers, Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 16:00:48 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 17:00:48 -0400 Subject: DEC PDP spare boards & backplane for sale on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4C910756.7080500@comcast.net> Message-ID: > 2010/9/15 Nick Allen > >> Just listed some spare DEC PDP parts on ebay, I haven't had much use for >> them, hopefully they will find a good home! I wish I'd known - I see you are in Chicago, and I'm coming to VCFmw. I have an -8/e that I'm restoring. The M8330 might come in handy (I have an older rev one, an M833, that is supposed to only work with 4K TTY machines) -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 16:03:37 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 17:03:37 -0400 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/15/10, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Probably not too useful a remark, but I remember from years ago when we >> had >> some Xerox Altos at the Stanford computer science department that the disk >> drives were very prone to head crashes. We were instructed to never >> attempt > > I am suprised... These drives are similar technology and bit density to > the DEC RK05, and presumably have a similar head flying height. My > experience of RK05s is that they don't crash that often, and when they do > the heads are not always destroyed. I have experience with RK05s too (and used to own a Diablo 30/RK03 until it got coated in a flood, but that's another story) and I agree they are quite robust. Perhaps they had issues with the retraction batteries or with dirty/missing filters? -ethan From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 15 18:48:03 2010 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 16:48:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP 9825 refurbishing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <395635.98303.qm@web38103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> If you poke arouind that site some more, you'll dins that the 9825 is not the only machine I've pulled apart... I think somebody claimed there's over 100 'HPxx_SchematicsByTonyDuell' files on that site. . . . Good luck. And feel free to ask if there's anything you want to know... -tony Wow, no kidding! I found several instances of your efforts already. Great stuff!! I also have already alloted WAY too much time on that site today. . . Dave From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Sep 15 20:47:01 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 21:47:01 -0400 Subject: MicroVAX 2000 ROM placement question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C917715.3090404@verizon.net> Ethan, If you don't get an answer before the weekend I can open one of mine. Any of the mumble VAX3100 series is a good scsi machine and can usually swallow two to three 1.07gb 3.5" drives or larger (boot drive for the older ones needs to be under 1.07gb). If you get close to Boston I could also arrange a 3100, too dang heavy to pack safely. Allison On 09/15/2010 02:05 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hi, All, > > I've been trying to dust off a MicroVAX 2000 for VCFmw, and so far, > all I've accomplished is literally getting the dust off. > > This unit was one I tried to install the SCSI-enabled patched boot > ROMs in some time back. I _thought_ I had arranged the original ROMs > in the same pattern, but it's possible with all the swapping, I got > some mixed up. I have checked (and re-downloaded) all the ROMs I have > - one factory set (23-092E7-00 through 23-095E7-00) and one patched > set. Cross-checking with the Technical Reference manual > (EK-VTTAA-TM-001) from Bitsavers, I have verified that all ROMs have > reasonable contents in the first few bytes (there are three signature > bytes, among other things). No matter which set I have installed, I > cannot get the console to respond with the self-test info. > > Does anyone have a photograph of a KA410 board where the labels on the > ROMs can be read? Alternately, does anyone have any docs with part > numbers? I'm reasonably certain that the underlying hardware is > functional and that I just need to re-install the ROMs correctly. > Yes, I could try the lucky-dip method, but one of the ROMs is rather > difficult to pull (owing to the memory interface connectors), and I'd > rather not break a pin off while sequencing through a dozen chip > swaps. I'd like to _know_ what goes where before I proceed > (especially if I am wrong and I _do_ have a hardware fault). > > I don't have any video cables handy, but in case it does come down to > testing with a tube vs a console terminal, I have a four-plane video > interface in addition to the mono frame buffer all KA410s come with. > I had just thought that it would be easy enough to use a BCC08 console > cable and go from there (it's worked before). > > Thanks for any tips or pointers, > > -ethan > > P.S. - I've been delving into the guts of the machine deeply enough > that I'm musing about what it would take to make a 16MB memory board > that didn't respond in the lower 2MB (to work with the on-board > memory). Static would be easy to interface, but the KA410 _does_ > generate and pass along refresh signals, so something with 30-pin or > 72-pin SIMMs shouldn't be that hard to whip up. I'm only considering > it because my largest memory board is 4MB, and the current prices for > an MS400-CA (12MB DEC board) are more than I'm personally willing to > pay - I'll do without first (which is what I'm already doing ;-) > > P.P.S - this would probably all be moot if I had a SCSI-based MicroVAX > slab of some sort, but I just haven't been in the right place at the > right time. Perhaps some DEC gear will make an appearance at the > VCF... > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 20:57:36 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 21:57:36 -0400 Subject: MicroVAX 2000 ROM placement question In-Reply-To: <4C917715.3090404@verizon.net> References: <4C917715.3090404@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 9/15/10, allison wrote: > Ethan, > > If you don't get an answer before the weekend I can open one of mine. I haven't gotten an answer that matches my ROM set, but I've gotten a couple of answers with similar patterns. Unfortunately, nobody has yet sent me anything based on contents matching labels. > Any of the mumble VAX3100 series is a good scsi machine and can > usually swallow two to three 1.07gb 3.5" drives or larger (boot drive > for the older ones needs to be under 1.07gb). Sure. I know about the machines (and the 1GB limit and _why_) but I've never been offered one. I think around here, smaller VAXen died out (the "newest" one I ran was an 8840 in 1997 at Lucent) > If you get close to Boston I could also arrange a 3100, too dang heavy > to pack safely. Not this month, but perhaps in the next year. I have many friends in the area - so far, I've only been once. I do happen to be going to the Maker Worlds Faire in two weeks and will have a car. If you were going already (by some convenient means) and hauled a MicroVAX along, I'd be able to get it home safely. Thanks, -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 21:05:36 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 22:05:36 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday Apple IIgs In-Reply-To: <202942.84081.qm@web113506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <4C90CBC8.1090902@atarimuseum.com> <202942.84081.qm@web113506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 9/15/10, Christian Liendo wrote: > Thanks.. The IIc Plus is tomorrow, but I really can't say too much about > it.. Please try... I have one that I haven't done much with (I also have a IIc) My second job (while I was still in High School) was programming the Apple II+ (along with the C-64). I still have some of my old work disks (we used Big Mac for our assembler). I need to get those imaged off - I expect that they can still be read, but I haven't tried in many years. If anyone has any stuff for the IIc Plus, even imaged disks, AFAIK, an older Mac should be able to write out real media for it (800K 3.5", unlike earlier Apple II models). -ethan From trs80 at marmotking.com Wed Sep 15 21:10:27 2010 From: trs80 at marmotking.com (David J. Cooper) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 19:10:27 -0700 Subject: MicroVAX 2000 ROM placement question References: Message-ID: Why, yes, I do have many Microvax 2000 motherboards. What numbers do you have on your ROMs? I seem to have a variety of numbers on various boards. Maybe I can find a match. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 11:05 PM Subject: MicroVAX 2000 ROM placement question > Hi, All, > > I've been trying to dust off a MicroVAX 2000 for VCFmw, and so far, > all I've accomplished is literally getting the dust off. > > This unit was one I tried to install the SCSI-enabled patched boot > ROMs in some time back. I _thought_ I had arranged the original ROMs > in the same pattern, but it's possible with all the swapping, I got > some mixed up. I have checked (and re-downloaded) all the ROMs I have > - one factory set (23-092E7-00 through 23-095E7-00) and one patched > set. Cross-checking with the Technical Reference manual > (EK-VTTAA-TM-001) from Bitsavers, I have verified that all ROMs have > reasonable contents in the first few bytes (there are three signature > bytes, among other things). No matter which set I have installed, I > cannot get the console to respond with the self-test info. > > Does anyone have a photograph of a KA410 board where the labels on the > ROMs can be read? Alternately, does anyone have any docs with part > numbers? I'm reasonably certain that the underlying hardware is > functional and that I just need to re-install the ROMs correctly. > Yes, I could try the lucky-dip method, but one of the ROMs is rather > difficult to pull (owing to the memory interface connectors), and I'd > rather not break a pin off while sequencing through a dozen chip > swaps. I'd like to _know_ what goes where before I proceed > (especially if I am wrong and I _do_ have a hardware fault). > > I don't have any video cables handy, but in case it does come down to > testing with a tube vs a console terminal, I have a four-plane video > interface in addition to the mono frame buffer all KA410s come with. > I had just thought that it would be easy enough to use a BCC08 console > cable and go from there (it's worked before). > > Thanks for any tips or pointers, > > -ethan > > P.S. - I've been delving into the guts of the machine deeply enough > that I'm musing about what it would take to make a 16MB memory board > that didn't respond in the lower 2MB (to work with the on-board > memory). Static would be easy to interface, but the KA410 _does_ > generate and pass along refresh signals, so something with 30-pin or > 72-pin SIMMs shouldn't be that hard to whip up. I'm only considering > it because my largest memory board is 4MB, and the current prices for > an MS400-CA (12MB DEC board) are more than I'm personally willing to > pay - I'll do without first (which is what I'm already doing ;-) > > P.P.S - this would probably all be moot if I had a SCSI-based MicroVAX > slab of some sort, but I just haven't been in the right place at the > right time. Perhaps some DEC gear will make an appearance at the > VCF... > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 21:22:46 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 22:22:46 -0400 Subject: MicroVAX 2000 ROM placement question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/15/10, David J. Cooper wrote: > Why, yes, I do have many Microvax 2000 motherboards. > > What numbers do you have on your ROMs? I seem to have a variety of numbers > on various boards. Maybe I can find a match. The stickers say... 23-092E7-00 | ABOfy/w8851 | digital | 23-093E7-00 | ABOfy/w8850 | digital | 23-094E7-00 | ABOfy/w8852 | digital | 23-095E7-00 | | | The last one is in a much larger dot-matrix font with each block of numbers on their own line. The others look like they were printed on an LA210 or something "nice". Thanks for any tips. -ethan From trs80 at marmotking.com Wed Sep 15 21:33:16 2010 From: trs80 at marmotking.com (David J. Cooper) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 19:33:16 -0700 Subject: MicroVAX 2000 ROM placement question References: Message-ID: <4CDAA2DF746C485C8803676320EEAF0A@phildirt> So here's a photo I have immediately available. It's very high resolution. http://download.marmotking.com/img_9377.png But, I have many more motherboards and machines if this doesn't match. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 11:05 PM Subject: MicroVAX 2000 ROM placement question > Hi, All, > > I've been trying to dust off a MicroVAX 2000 for VCFmw, and so far, > all I've accomplished is literally getting the dust off. > > This unit was one I tried to install the SCSI-enabled patched boot > ROMs in some time back. I _thought_ I had arranged the original ROMs > in the same pattern, but it's possible with all the swapping, I got > some mixed up. I have checked (and re-downloaded) all the ROMs I have > - one factory set (23-092E7-00 through 23-095E7-00) and one patched > set. Cross-checking with the Technical Reference manual > (EK-VTTAA-TM-001) from Bitsavers, I have verified that all ROMs have > reasonable contents in the first few bytes (there are three signature > bytes, among other things). No matter which set I have installed, I > cannot get the console to respond with the self-test info. > > Does anyone have a photograph of a KA410 board where the labels on the > ROMs can be read? Alternately, does anyone have any docs with part > numbers? I'm reasonably certain that the underlying hardware is > functional and that I just need to re-install the ROMs correctly. > Yes, I could try the lucky-dip method, but one of the ROMs is rather > difficult to pull (owing to the memory interface connectors), and I'd > rather not break a pin off while sequencing through a dozen chip > swaps. I'd like to _know_ what goes where before I proceed > (especially if I am wrong and I _do_ have a hardware fault). > > I don't have any video cables handy, but in case it does come down to > testing with a tube vs a console terminal, I have a four-plane video > interface in addition to the mono frame buffer all KA410s come with. > I had just thought that it would be easy enough to use a BCC08 console > cable and go from there (it's worked before). > > Thanks for any tips or pointers, > > -ethan > > P.S. - I've been delving into the guts of the machine deeply enough > that I'm musing about what it would take to make a 16MB memory board > that didn't respond in the lower 2MB (to work with the on-board > memory). Static would be easy to interface, but the KA410 _does_ > generate and pass along refresh signals, so something with 30-pin or > 72-pin SIMMs shouldn't be that hard to whip up. I'm only considering > it because my largest memory board is 4MB, and the current prices for > an MS400-CA (12MB DEC board) are more than I'm personally willing to > pay - I'll do without first (which is what I'm already doing ;-) > > P.P.S - this would probably all be moot if I had a SCSI-based MicroVAX > slab of some sort, but I just haven't been in the right place at the > right time. Perhaps some DEC gear will make an appearance at the > VCF... > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 15 21:36:40 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 19:36:40 -0700 Subject: MicroVAX 2000 ROM placement question In-Reply-To: <4CDAA2DF746C485C8803676320EEAF0A@phildirt> References: <4CDAA2DF746C485C8803676320EEAF0A@phildirt> Message-ID: <4C9182B8.6000207@bitsavers.org> On 9/15/10 7:33 PM, David J. Cooper wrote: > But, I have many more motherboards and machines if this doesn't match. > it would be a good thing to get rom dumps of all the variants. From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Sep 15 21:51:01 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 22:51:01 -0400 Subject: MicroVAX 2000 ROM placement question In-Reply-To: References: <4C917715.3090404@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C918615.9010004@verizon.net> On 09/15/2010 09:57 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 9/15/10, allison wrote: > >> Ethan, >> >> If you don't get an answer before the weekend I can open one of mine. >> > I haven't gotten an answer that matches my ROM set, but I've gotten a > couple of answers with similar patterns. Unfortunately, nobody has > yet sent me anything based on contents matching labels. > > That sounds odd, could the eproms you have be in some way oddball? I'll crack mine this weekend if needed. The MV2000 is a bit of a pain to open and recase. But I have one without disks just for formatting disks. >> Any of the mumble VAX3100 series is a good scsi machine and can >> usually swallow two to three 1.07gb 3.5" drives or larger (boot drive >> for the older ones needs to be under 1.07gb). >> > Sure. I know about the machines (and the 1GB limit and _why_) but > I've never been offered one. I think around here, smaller VAXen died > out (the "newest" one I ran was an 8840 in 1997 at Lucent) > > >> If you get close to Boston I could also arrange a 3100, too dang heavy >> to pack safely. >> > Not this month, but perhaps in the next year. I have many friends in > the area - so far, I've only been once. > > I do happen to be going to the Maker Worlds Faire in two weeks and > will have a car. If you were going already (by some convenient means) > and hauled a MicroVAX along, I'd be able to get it home safely. > > Thats not going to happen.. I moved away from NY. Actually I have other demands on my time. But I'll have the ones I have for a while. Allison > Thanks, > > -ethan > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 21:53:38 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 22:53:38 -0400 Subject: MicroVAX 2000 ROM placement question In-Reply-To: <4CDAA2DF746C485C8803676320EEAF0A@phildirt> References: <4CDAA2DF746C485C8803676320EEAF0A@phildirt> Message-ID: On 9/15/10, David J. Cooper wrote: > So here's a photo I have immediately available. It's very high resolution. > > http://download.marmotking.com/img_9377.png Niiice! > But, I have many more motherboards and machines if this doesn't match. OK. I'll check it against things when I get home in an hour... Thanks! -ethan From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Sep 15 21:54:42 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 22:54:42 -0400 Subject: MicroVAX 2000 ROM placement question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C9186F2.60104@verizon.net> On 09/15/2010 10:22 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 9/15/10, David J. Cooper wrote: > >> Why, yes, I do have many Microvax 2000 motherboards. >> >> What numbers do you have on your ROMs? I seem to have a variety of numbers >> on various boards. Maybe I can find a match. >> > The stickers say... > > 23-092E7-00 | ABOfy/w8851 | digital | > 23-093E7-00 | ABOfy/w8850 | digital | > 23-094E7-00 | ABOfy/w8852 | digital | > 23-095E7-00 | | | > > The 23-09xE7-00 is the magic number, the abo is where and the 8852 is 1988 week 52. If memory serves the 2-5 is sequential as are the sockets. Allison > The last one is in a much larger dot-matrix font with each block of > numbers on their own line. The others look like they were printed on > an LA210 or something "nice". > > Thanks for any tips. > > -ethan > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 21:55:59 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 22:55:59 -0400 Subject: MicroVAX 2000 ROM placement question In-Reply-To: <4C9182B8.6000207@bitsavers.org> References: <4CDAA2DF746C485C8803676320EEAF0A@phildirt> <4C9182B8.6000207@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 9/15/10, Al Kossow wrote: > On 9/15/10 7:33 PM, David J. Cooper wrote: > >> But, I have many more motherboards and machines if this doesn't match. >> > > it would be a good thing to get rom dumps of all the variants. Agreed. I have my four 64KB files, and another list member sent me a monolithic dump taken from a running machine (that I plan to split 4 ways and compare vs what I have). Yet another set of numbers is listed on the original printsets, but I don't have a matching set of ROMs for those numbers. Is there an incoming spot on bitsavers, or for small stuff like this, should we just mail it to you? I'm personally curious what the "ABOfy" means on 3 of my 4 labels. The other numbers all make sense, given DEC's numbering schemes. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 21:59:02 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 22:59:02 -0400 Subject: MicroVAX 2000 ROM placement question In-Reply-To: <4C9186F2.60104@verizon.net> References: <4C9186F2.60104@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 9/15/10, allison wrote: > On 09/15/2010 10:22 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> The stickers say... >> >> 23-092E7-00 | ABOfy/w8851 | digital | >> 23-093E7-00 | ABOfy/w8850 | digital | >> 23-094E7-00 | ABOfy/w8852 | digital | >> 23-095E7-00 | | | > > The 23-09xE7-00 is the magic number... Right. That's the pattern I recognize from other products. > the abo is where Aha! > and the 8852 is 1988 week 52. I wouldn't have guessed that, being so late in the year. > If memory serves the 2-5 is sequential as are the sockets. Sequential makes sense, but there are no E-numbers on the board to match up with the sockets. I pored over the schematics (on bitsavers) and know what the designations are for each group of 8 bits (D0-D7, D8-D15...) but it's the correlation that was eluding me. Thanks for all the info folks. This is really helping. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 22:01:19 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 23:01:19 -0400 Subject: MicroVAX 2000 ROM placement question In-Reply-To: <4C918615.9010004@verizon.net> References: <4C917715.3090404@verizon.net> <4C918615.9010004@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 9/15/10, allison wrote: > That sounds odd, could the eproms you have be in some way oddball? Perhaps. I haven't had this machine operational in many years. > I'll crack mine this weekend if needed. The MV2000 is a bit of a pain to > open and recase. Yeah it is. > But I have one without disks just for formatting disks. Handy. >>> If you get close to Boston I could also arrange a 3100... >> >> I do happen to be going to the Maker Worlds Faire... > > Thats not going to happen.. I moved away from NY. Gotcha. Perhaps some time down the road. Thanks again for the help and info. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 22:27:29 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 23:27:29 -0400 Subject: Any design "gotchas" with the Xicor X2864 EEPROM? Message-ID: Hi, All, I'm going through a box of older ICs and ran across a few X2864s. I know they are 64Kbit JEDEC EEPROMs, but what I don't know is if there are any odd issues with them. I found a datasheet that's mostly in Japanese - I do happen to read some Japanese, but I'm far from fluent. I'm mostly curious about in-circuit programming. I know a lot of newer hobby-type projects use different families of EEPROMs and that some devices can only program certain ones. What I don't know is how that relates to something as old as the X2864. I can probably program these in a standalone device programmer and potentially have to build a pin-swabber socket for a 2364 (or even 2332 for a PET), but I'd like to know if I'm opening a can of worms before I begin. Thanks for any warnings of pitfalls ahead. -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 15 22:46:42 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 20:46:42 -0700 Subject: MicroVAX 2000 ROM placement question In-Reply-To: References: <4CDAA2DF746C485C8803676320EEAF0A@phildirt> <4C9182B8.6000207@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4C919322.4070504@bitsavers.org> On 9/15/10 7:55 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Is there an incoming spot on bitsavers, or for small stuff like this, > should we just mail it to you? > Email is fine. I've received attachments over 10mb. From nick.allen at comcast.net Wed Sep 15 12:50:14 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 12:50:14 -0500 Subject: DEC PDP spare boards & backplane for sale on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C910756.7080500@comcast.net> Just listed some spare DEC PDP parts on ebay, I haven't had much use for them, hopefully they will find a good home! DEC PDP G227, G619, G104 Core Memory 4k Words Board : http://cgi.ebay.com/DEC-PDP-G227-G619-G104-Core-Memory-4k-Words-Board-/270635762364?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f032602bc DEC PDP G918 fc photo amplifier Board : http://cgi.ebay.com/DEC-PDP-G918-fc-photo-amplifier-Board-/270635763952?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f032608f0 DEC PDP G930 Board : http://cgi.ebay.com/DEC-PDP-G930-Board-/270635765207?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f03260dd7 DEC PDP M8330 KK8E - Timing board : http://cgi.ebay.com/DEC-PDP-M8330-KK8E-Timing-board-/270635766119?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f03261167 DEC PDP M8350 KA8E External positive I/O bus interface : http://cgi.ebay.com/DEC-PDP-M8350-KA8E-External-positive-I-O-bus-interface-/270635766749?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f032613dd DEC PDP W940 IC Board : http://cgi.ebay.com/DEC-PDP-W940-IC-Board-/270635767858?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f03261832 DEC PDP W990 IC Board : http://cgi.ebay.com/DEC-PDP-W990-IC-Board-/270635768387?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f03261a43 DEC PDP Omnibus 10 slot Backplane http://cgi.ebay.com/DEC-PDP-Omnibus-10-slot-Backplane-/270635769866?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f0326200a From tingox at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 13:52:02 2010 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 20:52:02 +0200 Subject: DiscFerret update: PCB done! In-Reply-To: <4C902ACD.8040804@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C81AA10.5030705@philpem.me.uk> <4C824DB3.5050400@philpem.me.uk> <4C902ACD.8040804@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: Hi, Congrats on the progress. On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 4:09 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > **Pre-orders** > > I have a few beta-testers who will be receiving a prototype DiscFerret once > I have some built-and-tested units sorted out. Once I've heard back from the > Beta Team, I'll probably start taking pre-orders of various forms: > - Bare PCB > - PCB with switch-mode PSU chip mounted (it's the only part that can't be > easily installed with a soldering iron) > - Kit of parts (SMPSU chip pre-mounted) > - Fully assembled PCB > - Fully assembled unit > > Comments on which one of these you'd be most likely to buy would be > appreciated -- either reply to this message, or send a new message to > discferret at philpem.me.uk. > It all depends on the price of course, but if it is in my I-can-afford-it range, I will either buy a kit or a fully assembled PCB. I like soldering up kits (if they aren't too much work). -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From nick.allen at comcast.net Wed Sep 15 14:06:17 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 14:06:17 -0500 Subject: FS: Hawley Mark II X063X Rare Vinage Computer Mouse Message-ID: <4C911929.90503@comcast.net> Not sure if anyone is interested, but I am clearing out items I am not using (I have a family of 5 in a 2 bedroom condo, with limited storage space, and a gracious wife with limited patience with my collection). I have listed this Hawley Mark II X063X Rare Vinage Computer Mouse for sale on ebay: http://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/e12000.m43.l1123/7?euid=430eac132fc24b63aa8f3481953dedd7&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Fws%2FeBayISAPI.dll%3FViewItem%26item%3D270635809877%26ssPageName%3DADME%3AL%3ALCA%3AUS%3A1123 From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 14:20:00 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 15:20:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: odd SCSI drives + parts at friend's shop. In-Reply-To: References: <4C9072E8.2030106@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Sep 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Interestingly I always thought that SCA-80 was a relatively recent >> addition to the SCSI fold, but a few months ago I acquired a Seagate(?) >> 1GB drive with an SCA-80 interface. So it's obviously not as recent >> as I thought. > > That connector has been around for at least 15 years. I think I saw a > 500MB Seagate drive with an SCA connector once, but those weren't > common. There were lots of 1GB and 2GB drives with SCA connectors. > > The oldest machine I've personally used that had internal SCA > connectors is a SPARC5. My Sparc 2 has SCA connectors for the internal drives. -- From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Thu Sep 16 01:32:27 2010 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 08:32:27 +0200 Subject: Classic computing on the rise ! Message-ID: <4C91B9FB.9080402@bluewin.ch> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-10951040 show how old computers are used toteach programming. From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 03:16:31 2010 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 09:16:31 +0100 Subject: Classic computing on the rise ! In-Reply-To: <4C91B9FB.9080402@bluewin.ch> References: <4C91B9FB.9080402@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On 16 September 2010 07:32, Jos Dreesen wrote: > > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-10951040 > > show how old computers are used toteach programming. Yep, it's a pity none of the local schools have asked me for some of my own BBCs, it's not like I don't have loads of them or anything :) -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home? computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Sep 16 07:48:13 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 08:48:13 -0400 Subject: Any design "gotchas" with the Xicor X2864 EEPROM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C92120D.2010509@verizon.net> Hi Ethan, I have a unch of them and use them frequently. The way I program them is a 64kx8 ram board that uses 2164s and I just plug them in and run a simple copy program that has a delay after write for each byte. Beats 2764s! I use the parts where 2764s would be used paying attention to device access times. You shuld be able to find an english datasheet as they were popular. Allison Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hi, All, > > I'm going through a box of older ICs and ran across a few X2864s. I > know they are 64Kbit JEDEC EEPROMs, but what I don't know is if there > are any odd issues with them. I found a datasheet that's mostly in > Japanese - I do happen to read some Japanese, but I'm far from fluent. > > I'm mostly curious about in-circuit programming. I know a lot of > newer hobby-type projects use different families of EEPROMs and that > some devices can only program certain ones. What I don't know is how > that relates to something as old as the X2864. I can probably program > these in a standalone device programmer and potentially have to build > a pin-swabber socket for a 2364 (or even 2332 for a PET), but I'd like > to know if I'm opening a can of worms before I begin. > > Thanks for any warnings of pitfalls ahead. > > -ethan > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 08:46:04 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 09:46:04 -0400 Subject: odd SCSI drives + parts at friend's shop. In-Reply-To: References: <4C9072E8.2030106@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 3:20 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Wed, 15 Sep 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >>> Interestingly I always thought that SCA-80 was a relatively recent >>> addition to the SCSI fold, but a few months ago I acquired a Seagate(?) >>> 1GB drive with an SCA-80 interface. So it's obviously not as recent >>> as I thought. >> >> That connector has been around for at least 15 years. ?I think I saw a >> 500MB Seagate drive with an SCA connector once, but those weren't >> common. ?There were lots of 1GB and 2GB drives with SCA connectors. >> >> The oldest machine I've personally used that had internal SCA >> connectors is a SPARC5. > > My Sparc 2 has SCA connectors for the internal drives. Where? The SUN Sparc2 (4/75) motherboard has a pair of internal 50-pin narrow SCSI connectors for internal drives, and a "SCSI-2" 50-pin external connector for external disks/tapes. Do you mean an Ultra2? Do you have a replacement motherboard? -ethan From jonas at otter.se Thu Sep 16 04:04:01 2010 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 09:04:01 +0000 Subject: Mass spectrometers etc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On , 15 Sep 2010 20:30:26 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >Subject: Re: Mass spectrometers etc >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain > >> You need to find a diffussion pump. These will get you down to > The French guy used a rotary vane pump and a molecular pump, which you could probably make yourself at home (he did). The rotary vane pump shouldn't give you any problems, and for the molecular pump you only need an old motor capable of 24000 rpm without breaking up, and some careful machining :-) A spot of high vacuum grease, a few seals etc and you are all set. The finished set up isn't particularly large either. No oil in the molecular pump either... /Jonas >Indeed I do (My father spoet most of his working days on high vacuum >systems., I think I'd head ofa 'diff pump' before I even went to school... > >OIl, from choice. Mercury vapour, even inside a vacuum system (and some >will, alas, end up in the backing rotary pump) is not something I >particualrly keen on.... > >There is the minor problem of 'where the heck do I set up a vacuum >system, along with all the other things I am working on' :-) > >-tony > From dj.taylor4 at verizon.net Thu Sep 16 06:20:09 2010 From: dj.taylor4 at verizon.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 07:20:09 -0400 Subject: MicroVAX 2000 ROM placement question In-Reply-To: <4CDAA2DF746C485C8803676320EEAF0A@phildirt> References: <4CDAA2DF746C485C8803676320EEAF0A@phildirt> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20100916071845.024faec0@verizon.net> I have to replace my digital camera and really would like to be able to take close up high resolution photos like this one. What's the cheapest way to do this? At 10:33 PM 9/15/2010, you wrote: >So here's a photo I have immediately available. It's very high resolution. > >http://download.marmotking.com/img_9377.png > >But, I have many more motherboards and machines if this doesn't match. > > >----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 11:05 PM >Subject: MicroVAX 2000 ROM placement question > > >>Hi, All, >>I've been trying to dust off a MicroVAX 2000 for VCFmw, and so far, >>all I've accomplished is literally getting the dust off. >>This unit was one I tried to install the SCSI-enabled patched boot >>ROMs in some time back. I _thought_ I had arranged the original ROMs >>in the same pattern, but it's possible with all the swapping, I got >>some mixed up. I have checked (and re-downloaded) all the ROMs I have >>- one factory set (23-092E7-00 through 23-095E7-00) and one patched >>set. Cross-checking with the Technical Reference manual >>(EK-VTTAA-TM-001) from Bitsavers, I have verified that all ROMs have >>reasonable contents in the first few bytes (there are three signature >>bytes, among other things). No matter which set I have installed, I >>cannot get the console to respond with the self-test info. >>Does anyone have a photograph of a KA410 board where the labels on the >>ROMs can be read? Alternately, does anyone have any docs with part >>numbers? I'm reasonably certain that the underlying hardware is >>functional and that I just need to re-install the ROMs correctly. >>Yes, I could try the lucky-dip method, but one of the ROMs is rather >>difficult to pull (owing to the memory interface connectors), and I'd >>rather not break a pin off while sequencing through a dozen chip >>swaps. I'd like to _know_ what goes where before I proceed >>(especially if I am wrong and I _do_ have a hardware fault). >>I don't have any video cables handy, but in case it does come down to >>testing with a tube vs a console terminal, I have a four-plane video >>interface in addition to the mono frame buffer all KA410s come with. >>I had just thought that it would be easy enough to use a BCC08 console >>cable and go from there (it's worked before). >>Thanks for any tips or pointers, >>-ethan >>P.S. - I've been delving into the guts of the machine deeply enough >>that I'm musing about what it would take to make a 16MB memory board >>that didn't respond in the lower 2MB (to work with the on-board >>memory). Static would be easy to interface, but the KA410 _does_ >>generate and pass along refresh signals, so something with 30-pin or >>72-pin SIMMs shouldn't be that hard to whip up. I'm only considering >>it because my largest memory board is 4MB, and the current prices for >>an MS400-CA (12MB DEC board) are more than I'm personally willing to >>pay - I'll do without first (which is what I'm already doing ;-) >>P.P.S - this would probably all be moot if I had a SCSI-based MicroVAX >>slab of some sort, but I just haven't been in the right place at the >>right time. Perhaps some DEC gear will make an appearance at the >>VCF... > From mark.kahrs at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 06:52:31 2010 From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 07:52:31 -0400 Subject: Diablo 30 disks and failure Message-ID: When I was maintaining Alto Is, I put a warning sign on the machines that stated "Avoid VD --- Venereal Disks! If your disk doesn't load, do NOT try another machine"... For the most part the drives were OK, but if they did fail, then the contagion could be spread. I certainly had my share of disk crashes. There's a reason the Alto file system had the scavanger and was designed to be recovered... From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Thu Sep 16 09:10:16 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 07:10:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic Computer Wall Calendar, Sept 16 Jobs leaves Apple and then comes back In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <230269.55772.qm@web113503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 9/15/10, Tony Duell wrote: > A 'classic computer wall calendar' would be rather fun... This was done already: http://www.digicraft.com.au/calendars/ I used to get them but they stopped. I want to make an online Calendar of different dates in Computer History and then every year just pop them up to say "On this date, blah blah blah happened" Like today Sept 16 the Apple IIc was introduced, so I made a blog entry. [http://8bitaficionado.com/?p=198] Then I saw an article that on Sept 16 1988 Jobs left Apple and on Sept 16 1997 he returned to his CEO position [http://8bitaficionado.com/?p=266]. I want something that I can keep track of all these dates... I have been looking for online calendar widgets for Wordpress. I am still learning wordpress. I don't even have a proper about section. I kinda just made something minimal and started posting. From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Sep 16 11:33:03 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 17:33:03 +0100 Subject: odd SCSI drives + parts at friend's shop. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0A67EC4508DD4890AEB32AB5F4CA14D8@ANTONIOPC> Ethan Dicks [ethan.dicks at gmail.com] wrote: > On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 3:20 PM, Steven Hirsch >> My Sparc 2 has SCA connectors for the internal drives. > > Where? The SUN Sparc2 (4/75) motherboard has a pair of > internal 50-pin narrow SCSI connectors for internal drives, > and a "SCSI-2" 50-pin external connector for external disks/tapes. > > Do you mean an Ultra2? Do you have a replacement motherboard? The Ultra 2 definitely takes SCA-80 SCSI disks - I have one on the desk here. Antonio From ragooman at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 11:41:43 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 12:41:43 -0400 Subject: Classic Computer Wall Calendar, Sept 16 Jobs leaves Apple and then comes back In-Reply-To: <230269.55772.qm@web113503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <230269.55772.qm@web113503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 10:10 AM, Christian Liendo < christian_liendo at yahoo.com> wrote: > --- On Wed, 9/15/10, Tony Duell wrote: > > A 'classic computer wall calendar' would be rather fun... > > > This was done already: > http://www.digicraft.com.au/calendars/ > > > Chris, maybe just stick with the [hw/sw] releases, innovations [new 64Kbit dram, etc] and not include all the fluff. Otherwise it might just turn into another ramping drama contest - "Bill Gates wrote letter to Hobbyists". There's only 12pics[mon] to go on a calendar - there's alot more computers than that. just my 2? =Dan --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From trs80 at marmotking.com Thu Sep 16 12:02:12 2010 From: trs80 at marmotking.com (David J. Cooper) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 10:02:12 -0700 Subject: MicroVAX 2000 ROM placement question References: <4CDAA2DF746C485C8803676320EEAF0A@phildirt> <7.0.1.0.2.20100916071845.024faec0@verizon.net> Message-ID: <52A8DBBEBE7649C1ABCD7C54B2F96F57@phildirt> I'm not sure how to do it cheaply. This was done with a fairly expensive camera. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Taylor" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 4:20 AM Subject: Re: MicroVAX 2000 ROM placement question >I have to replace my digital camera and really would like to be able to >take > close up high resolution photos like this one. What's the cheapest way to > do this? > > At 10:33 PM 9/15/2010, you wrote: >>So here's a photo I have immediately available. It's very high >>resolution. >> >>http://download.marmotking.com/img_9377.png >> >>But, I have many more motherboards and machines if this doesn't match. >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" >>To: >>Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 11:05 PM >>Subject: MicroVAX 2000 ROM placement question >> >> >>>Hi, All, >>>I've been trying to dust off a MicroVAX 2000 for VCFmw, and so far, >>>all I've accomplished is literally getting the dust off. >>>This unit was one I tried to install the SCSI-enabled patched boot >>>ROMs in some time back. I _thought_ I had arranged the original ROMs >>>in the same pattern, but it's possible with all the swapping, I got >>>some mixed up. I have checked (and re-downloaded) all the ROMs I have >>>- one factory set (23-092E7-00 through 23-095E7-00) and one patched >>>set. Cross-checking with the Technical Reference manual >>>(EK-VTTAA-TM-001) from Bitsavers, I have verified that all ROMs have >>>reasonable contents in the first few bytes (there are three signature >>>bytes, among other things). No matter which set I have installed, I >>>cannot get the console to respond with the self-test info. >>>Does anyone have a photograph of a KA410 board where the labels on the >>>ROMs can be read? Alternately, does anyone have any docs with part >>>numbers? I'm reasonably certain that the underlying hardware is >>>functional and that I just need to re-install the ROMs correctly. >>>Yes, I could try the lucky-dip method, but one of the ROMs is rather >>>difficult to pull (owing to the memory interface connectors), and I'd >>>rather not break a pin off while sequencing through a dozen chip >>>swaps. I'd like to _know_ what goes where before I proceed >>>(especially if I am wrong and I _do_ have a hardware fault). >>>I don't have any video cables handy, but in case it does come down to >>>testing with a tube vs a console terminal, I have a four-plane video >>>interface in addition to the mono frame buffer all KA410s come with. >>>I had just thought that it would be easy enough to use a BCC08 console >>>cable and go from there (it's worked before). >>>Thanks for any tips or pointers, >>>-ethan >>>P.S. - I've been delving into the guts of the machine deeply enough >>>that I'm musing about what it would take to make a 16MB memory board >>>that didn't respond in the lower 2MB (to work with the on-board >>>memory). Static would be easy to interface, but the KA410 _does_ >>>generate and pass along refresh signals, so something with 30-pin or >>>72-pin SIMMs shouldn't be that hard to whip up. I'm only considering >>>it because my largest memory board is 4MB, and the current prices for >>>an MS400-CA (12MB DEC board) are more than I'm personally willing to >>>pay - I'll do without first (which is what I'm already doing ;-) >>>P.P.S - this would probably all be moot if I had a SCSI-based MicroVAX >>>slab of some sort, but I just haven't been in the right place at the >>>right time. Perhaps some DEC gear will make an appearance at the >>>VCF... >> > > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 16 12:06:18 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 10:06:18 -0700 Subject: Classic Computer Wall Calendar, Sept 16 Jobs leaves Apple and then comes back In-Reply-To: <230269.55772.qm@web113503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <230269.55772.qm@web113503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C924E8A.50703@bitsavers.org> On 9/16/10 7:10 AM, Christian Liendo wrote: > on Sept 16 1988 Jobs left Apple 1985 From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 16 12:07:27 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 10:07:27 -0700 Subject: MicroVAX 2000 ROM placement question In-Reply-To: <52A8DBBEBE7649C1ABCD7C54B2F96F57@phildirt> References: <4CDAA2DF746C485C8803676320EEAF0A@phildirt> <7.0.1.0.2.20100916071845.024faec0@verizon.net> <52A8DBBEBE7649C1ABCD7C54B2F96F57@phildirt> Message-ID: <4C924ECF.5080601@bitsavers.org> On 9/16/10 10:02 AM, David J. Cooper wrote: > I'm not sure how to do it cheaply. use a flat-bed scanner From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Thu Sep 16 12:33:30 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 10:33:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic Computer Wall Calendar, Sept 16 Jobs leaves Apple and then comes back In-Reply-To: <4C924E8A.50703@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <439295.50978.qm@web113509.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Typo... I was typing too fast. My blog entry is correct. --- On Thu, 9/16/10, Al Kossow wrote: > From: Al Kossow > Subject: Re: Classic Computer Wall Calendar, Sept 16 Jobs leaves Apple and then comes back > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Thursday, September 16, 2010, 1:06 PM > On 9/16/10 7:10 AM, Christian Liendo > wrote: > >? on Sept 16 1988 Jobs left Apple > > 1985 > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 16 14:32:46 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 12:32:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic Computer Wall Calendar, Sept 16 Jobs leaves Apple and then comes back In-Reply-To: References: <230269.55772.qm@web113503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20100916122905.L53965@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 16 Sep 2010, Dan Roganti wrote: > maybe just stick with the [hw/sw] releases, innovations [new 64Kbit dram, > etc] and not include all the fluff. Otherwise it might just turn into > another ramping drama contest - "Bill Gates wrote letter to Hobbyists". What date was that? (one of the early uses of "piracy" for personal unauthorized copying, beginning of "you" v "we" adversarial attitude) > There's only 12pics[mon] to go on a calendar - there's alot more computers > than that. Do you have enough pictures for a "week-at-a-glance" or "picture-every-day" calendar? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 16 14:05:57 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 20:05:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Sep 15, 10 05:03:37 pm Message-ID: > I have experience with RK05s too (and used to own a Diablo 30/RK03 > until it got coated in a flood, but that's another story) and I agree > they are quite robust. > > Perhaps they had issues with the retraction batteries or with > dirty/missing filters? What retrcation battery (in a Diablo Model 30)? This drive has a head load solenoid (!) which when enrgised allows the heads to come towards the disk and fly. When it'as not powered, the heads are mechanically lifted off the disk (althoghh they may not be in the home position). Other oddities of this drive are that the blower fan is driven by the spidnle motor and the head positioner is a pemanent magnet motor and IIRC a rack-and-pinion mechanism. I agree, though, that dirty filters will cause problems in these drives (as with all other demountable hard disks). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 16 14:26:36 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 20:26:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Diablo 30 disks and failure In-Reply-To: from "Mark Kahrs" at Sep 16, 10 07:52:31 am Message-ID: > There's a reason the Alto file system had the scavanger and was designed to > be recovered... I wonder if it's a conincidence that the PERQ POS filesystem recovery tool is also called 'scavenger' and that the PERQ filesystem also stores all the pointers at least twice so it's posisble to recover from quite bad disk corruption. Not that any PERQ had a dmountable hard disk. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 16 14:57:43 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 20:57:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Classic Computer Wall Calendar, Sept 16 Jobs leaves Apple and In-Reply-To: from "Dan Roganti" at Sep 16, 10 12:41:43 pm Message-ID: > There's only 12pics[mon] to go on a calendar - there's alot more computers > than that. True... But firstly, you could put several related machines on one page. And secondly, there are plenty of years still to go (we hope :-)), so you could produce calnedars with a new set of 12 pictures each year. -tony From coredump at gifford.co.uk Thu Sep 16 16:10:04 2010 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 22:10:04 +0100 Subject: GNT 3601 tape punch docs? In-Reply-To: <4C9260E7.3010706@gmail.com> References: 20090208231032.GN3515@n0jcf.net <4C9260E7.3010706@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C9287AC.6040906@gifford.co.uk> Kheireddine Saidi wrote: ... > Then I made a null modem cable and connected to the PC, but i can't get > anything punched using windows terminal or the program that i wrote, at > 300bauds and neither at 1200 bauds. In what way did it not work? Did anything happen at all when you sent serial characters? Is the power supply OK? You haven't given us much information to go on! -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From s.kheireddine at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 13:24:39 2010 From: s.kheireddine at gmail.com (Kheireddine Saidi) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 19:24:39 +0100 Subject: GNT 3601 tape punch docs? References: 20090208231032.GN3515@n0jcf.net Message-ID: <4C9260E7.3010706@gmail.com> Hello, I need to interface a GNT 3601 puncher to make some tapes, I didn't succeed yet. I asked for the pinouts from the manufacturer. According to their document, the communication could be done at 50, 75, 100, 110, 134.5, 150, 200, 300, 600 and 1200 bauds. and the pinouts are: 1 N.C. 2 Transmitted Data 3 Received Data 4 N.C. 5 N.C 6 Data Set Ready 7 GND 8-12 N.C. 13 Current Loop Receive, - 14-17 N.C. 18 Current Loop Receive, + 19 N.C. 20 Data Terminal Ready 21-24 N.C. 25 DC Output, 12v 20mA max Then I made a null modem cable and connected to the PC, but i can't get anything punched using windows terminal or the program that i wrote, at 300bauds and neither at 1200 bauds. I would appreciate your help, thanks. From wmaddox at pacbell.net Thu Sep 16 17:24:21 2010 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 15:24:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Diablo 30 disks and failure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <248192.42861.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 9/16/10, Tony Duell wrote: > I wonder if it's a conincidence that the PERQ POS > filesystem recovery > tool is also called 'scavenger' and that the PERQ > filesystem also stores > all the pointers at least twice so it's posisble to recover > from quite > bad disk corruption. Not that any PERQ had a dmountable > hard disk. The Perq was the result of a visit (sabbatical?) at Xerox PARC by one of the principals of Three Rivers Computer, much like the way Lilith originated from Wirth's experiences there. I believe that the original code name of the Perq was the "PascAlto", referring to its obvious heritage, but with the intent to base the software on UCSD Pascal rather than BCPL. Undoubtedly the Perq owes much to the Alto, as did every other similar graphical workstation of that era. --Bill From ss at allegro.com Thu Sep 16 19:16:08 2010 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 17:16:08 -0700 Subject: BACCL.com, BACCL.org In-Reply-To: References: <423695.78469.qm@web35308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi, (mostly for Bay Area collectors) Some years ago, when the Bay Area Computer Collectors List was alive, and people were often coming to my office once a week for "show and tell", I registered baccl.com and baccl.org, intending to give them to whoever wanted to manage the BACCL list server. However, life intervened and I forgot :) I just got a notice from the registrar that the two domains are going to expire on October 1 ... if anyone is interested in them, let me know and I'll transfer them before the expiration if possible. thanks, Stan Sieler From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 17:36:03 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 18:36:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: odd SCSI drives + parts at friend's shop. In-Reply-To: References: <4C9072E8.2030106@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Sep 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 3:20 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> On Wed, 15 Sep 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >>>> Interestingly I always thought that SCA-80 was a relatively recent >>>> addition to the SCSI fold, but a few months ago I acquired a Seagate(?) >>>> 1GB drive with an SCA-80 interface. So it's obviously not as recent >>>> as I thought. >>> >>> That connector has been around for at least 15 years. ?I think I saw a >>> 500MB Seagate drive with an SCA connector once, but those weren't >>> common. ?There were lots of 1GB and 2GB drives with SCA connectors. >>> >>> The oldest machine I've personally used that had internal SCA >>> connectors is a SPARC5. >> >> My Sparc 2 has SCA connectors for the internal drives. > > Where? The SUN Sparc2 (4/75) motherboard has a pair of internal > 50-pin narrow SCSI connectors for internal drives, and a "SCSI-2" > 50-pin external connector for external disks/tapes. > > Do you mean an Ultra2? Do you have a replacement motherboard? That's what I get for posting when I'm half-asleep... You are quite correct. The machine is actually a SparcStation 20 pizza-box. Steve -- From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Fri Sep 17 03:50:40 2010 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (F.J. Kraan) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 10:50:40 +0200 Subject: MicroVAX 2000 ROM placement question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C932BE0.1010606@xs4all.nl> For ROM image collectors or otherwise, at http://electrickery.xs4all.nl/tmp/vs2k8850ROMS.zip are images (both electrical and optical) of an all DEC8850 ROM set from a VAXstation 2000. Fred Jan From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Fri Sep 17 07:28:43 2010 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 14:28:43 +0200 Subject: does anybody recognize this panel? Message-ID: Hi all, I wanted to sell a big blinkenlight panel, because I realized I will never find the time for again another project ... Auction number 170539265245 shows a few pictures (auction is ended). I would like to add more info before re-listing the front panel. thanks, - Henk. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Sep 17 08:18:08 2010 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 09:18:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: does anybody recognize this panel? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Sep 2010, Henk Gooijen wrote: > I wanted to sell a big blinkenlight panel, because I realized I will > never find the time for again another project ... Auction number > 170539265245 shows a few pictures (auction is ended). > I would like to add more info before re-listing the front panel. I have one of those, as well: http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/Panels/index.html#Univac It's supposedly from a Univac tape controller, possibly a T5042. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Sep 17 08:19:49 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 09:19:49 -0400 Subject: MicroVAX 2000 ROM placement question In-Reply-To: <4C932BE0.1010606@xs4all.nl> References: <4C932BE0.1010606@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4C936AF5.6040601@verizon.net> On 09/17/2010 04:50 AM, F.J. Kraan wrote: > For ROM image collectors or otherwise, at > http://electrickery.xs4all.nl/tmp/vs2k8850ROMS.zip are images (both > electrical and optical) of an all DEC8850 ROM set from a VAXstation 2000. > > Fred Jan > > There you go that has the code and the picture... Allison From nick.allen at comcast.net Fri Sep 17 10:31:29 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 10:31:29 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest: something to wet your appetite! Message-ID: <4C9389D1.1050901@comcast.net> NEVER BEFORE SEEN BY THE PUBLIC: a Frankenstein Microcomputer!!! http://lh5.ggpht.com/_lkddKjPsPFU/TJOJIwCimrI/AAAAAAAABgY/6a0rGCjfs08/s640/_1020934.JPG http://lh5.ggpht.com/_lkddKjPsPFU/TJOJGTKcIEI/AAAAAAAABgQ/FGZDkx1BC5I/s720/_1020933.JPG From jws at jwsss.com Fri Sep 17 10:44:10 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 08:44:10 -0700 Subject: odd SCSI drives: Updated. whoever called FC gets the prize. In-Reply-To: References: <4C9072E8.2030106@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4C938CCA.6070801@jwsss.com> On 9/16/2010 3:36 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Thu, 16 Sep 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 3:20 PM, Steven Hirsch >> wrote: >>> On Wed, 15 Sep 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: Were Seagate Cheetah's when turned over. ST136403FC if anyone is interested. I do have some Quantums with the same edge pattern as these, had to dig thru things to get these out of the pile. Sorry for the misinformation. Such is computer archeology From ragooman at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 11:45:02 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 12:45:02 -0400 Subject: VCF Midwest: something to wet your appetite! In-Reply-To: <4C9389D1.1050901@comcast.net> References: <4C9389D1.1050901@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Nick Allen wrote: > NEVER BEFORE SEEN BY THE PUBLIC: a Frankenstein Microcomputer!!! > > > http://lh5.ggpht.com/_lkddKjPsPFU/TJOJIwCimrI/AAAAAAAABgY/6a0rGCjfs08/s640/_1020934.JPG > > > http://lh5.ggpht.com/_lkddKjPsPFU/TJOJGTKcIEI/AAAAAAAABgQ/FGZDkx1BC5I/s720/_1020933.JPG > nnniiiiiiccce where's the neck bolts :) =Dan --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Fri Sep 17 12:00:38 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 10:00:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF Midwest: something to wet your appetite! In-Reply-To: <4C9389D1.1050901@comcast.net> Message-ID: <42369.56813.qm@web113512.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> DUDE what is that? Can I put this on my blog? That looks cool... Please send me info. --- On Fri, 9/17/10, Nick Allen wrote: > From: Nick Allen > Subject: VCF Midwest: something to wet your appetite! > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Date: Friday, September 17, 2010, 11:31 AM > NEVER BEFORE SEEN BY THE PUBLIC: a > Frankenstein Microcomputer!!! > > http://lh5.ggpht.com/_lkddKjPsPFU/TJOJIwCimrI/AAAAAAAABgY/6a0rGCjfs08/s640/_1020934.JPG > > http://lh5.ggpht.com/_lkddKjPsPFU/TJOJGTKcIEI/AAAAAAAABgQ/FGZDkx1BC5I/s720/_1020933.JPG > From lproven at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 12:05:56 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 18:05:56 +0100 Subject: VCF Midwest: something to wet your appetite! In-Reply-To: <4C9389D1.1050901@comcast.net> References: <4C9389D1.1050901@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 17 September 2010 16:31, Nick Allen wrote: > ?NEVER BEFORE SEEN BY THE PUBLIC: a Frankenstein Microcomputer!!! > > http://lh5.ggpht.com/_lkddKjPsPFU/TJOJIwCimrI/AAAAAAAABgY/6a0rGCjfs08/s640/_1020934.JPG > > http://lh5.ggpht.com/_lkddKjPsPFU/TJOJGTKcIEI/AAAAAAAABgQ/FGZDkx1BC5I/s720/_1020933.JPG Nice! :?) But that's "whet", meaning "sharpen", as in "whetstone". You can wet your whistle, but you only whet your appetite. Unless you can show me a way to dunk a sensation of hunger into a glass of water... -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Sep 17 12:30:06 2010 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 12:30:06 -0500 Subject: Diablo 30 disks and failure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:00 -0500 9/17/10, Bill M. wrote: >The Perq was the result of a visit (sabbatical?) at Xerox PARC >by one of the principals of Three Rivers Computer, much like >the way Lilith originated from Wirth's experiences there.... --Bill Ah, hah! Do I correctly surmise that the correct pronunciation of "Perq" is /park/ = [pahrk] (cf dictionary.com "park") and not /p3rk/ = [purk] (cf dictionary.com, "perk") ? -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri Sep 17 12:41:46 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 10:41:46 -0700 Subject: Diablo 30 disks and failure In-Reply-To: <248192.42861.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <248192.42861.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C93A85A.3090709@mail.msu.edu> On 9/16/2010 3:24 PM, William Maddox wrote: > --- On Thu, 9/16/10, Tony Duell wrote: > >> I wonder if it's a conincidence that the PERQ POS >> filesystem recovery >> tool is also called 'scavenger' and that the PERQ >> filesystem also stores >> all the pointers at least twice so it's posisble to recover >> from quite >> bad disk corruption. Not that any PERQ had a dmountable >> hard disk. > The Perq was the result of a visit (sabbatical?) at Xerox PARC > by one of the principals of Three Rivers Computer, much like > the way Lilith originated from Wirth's experiences there. > I believe that the original code name of the Perq was the > "PascAlto", referring to its obvious heritage, but with the > intent to base the software on UCSD Pascal rather than BCPL. > Undoubtedly the Perq owes much to the Alto, as did every other > similar graphical workstation of that era. > > --Bill > > My understanding is that Brian Rosen, one of the founders of 3RCC (creators of the PERQ) worked at Xerox PARC for a time in the mid-late 70's, but he was frustrated with Xerox's inability/unwillingness to commercialize the Alto in any significant way. The PERQ was the result of this frustration. So yes, the PERQ was influenced by the Alto in some rather major ways :). (There's a nice writeup here: http://www.chilton-computing.org.uk/acd/sus/perq_history/part_1/c5.htm -- this is an interesting site to read about ICL/3RCC and the PERQ, just FYI...) - Josh From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 17 12:43:53 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 13:43:53 -0400 Subject: odd SCSI drives + parts at friend's shop. In-Reply-To: References: <4C9072E8.2030106@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4C93A8D9.4000902@neurotica.com> On 9/15/10 12:39 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Some Sun boxes apparently >> take FC drives and you can make an adapter to hook them up to an HBA >> in a PC. > > Yes. ISTR machines of the SPARCserver 3000 and 5000 era (c. 1996) > might have been able to take the -FC drives directly, or at least > through an available drive shelf product of the same vintage. Stuff > from the early 1990s was pretty much all parallel SCSI, either narrow > or wide (I forget exactly how old wide-SCSI is). (sorry for the late entry, I've been on the road) You're talking about the Enterprise series, which contains models such as E3000, E3500, E6500, etc. If the second digit is '0', it uses SCA-80 SCSI. If the second digit is '5', it's a later model which has native FibreChannel. FibreChannel drives use SCA-40 connectors. The Exx00 series take the same proc/mem boards, each of which can carry up to two 64-bit UltraSPARC-II processors and 2GB or (IIRC) 4GB of memory. The higher-numbered machines (the first 'x' in Exx00) simply have more slots for those proc/mem boards. The lower-level members, I'll use the E3500 as an example, are self-contained machines with internal drive bays. The E3500 can take four proc/mem modules in the back and has eight FibreChannel drive bays in the front. The drives mount on standard "spud" brackets as are used in the much older machines like the Ultra2. Ex000 machines are pretty old these days, but Ex500 machines hold their own quite well, especially for server workloads like email and database stuff. My company still has two of these in production. Some of the more recent high-end Sun machines have native FibreChannel as well. Some examples are the Sun Fire 280r and the Sun V480/V880. My company is running quite a few of the latter, and my central computer here at home is a V480. Current high-end Sun machines that support in-cabinet disks are typically SAS, though most also have FibreChannel. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Fri Sep 17 12:56:37 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 11:56:37 -0600 Subject: SGI IRIS 3130 Joins the Collection Message-ID: Finally! I got a member of the IRIS 680x0 product line and its a nice one. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 17 13:05:15 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 11:05:15 -0700 Subject: SGI IRIS 3130 Joins the Collection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C93ADDB.9060704@bitsavers.org> On 9/17/10 10:56 AM, Richard wrote: > > > Finally! I got a member of the IRIS 680x0 product line and its a nice one. Yup, fully loaded, it appears. Which disk controller does it have? I don't see any pics. It should either be a Qualogy or Interphase. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 17 12:57:44 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 18:57:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: GNT 3601 tape punch docs? In-Reply-To: <4C9287AC.6040906@gifford.co.uk> from "John Honniball" at Sep 16, 10 10:10:04 pm Message-ID: > > Kheireddine Saidi wrote: > ... > > Then I made a null modem cable and connected to the PC, but i can't get > > anything punched using windows terminal or the program that i wrote, at > > 300bauds and neither at 1200 bauds. > > In what way did it not work? Did anything happen at all when you sent > serial characters? Is the power supply OK? > > You haven't given us much information to go on! We don;t even know that the PC is sending anything. Have you tried a 'scope or breakout box or whatever to make sure the TxD line is doing something when you try to send a character? Also, 'Null Modem Cable' covers a multitude of sins. What ahve you done with the flkw control lines? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 17 13:00:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 19:00:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Diablo 30 disks and failure In-Reply-To: <248192.42861.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> from "William Maddox" at Sep 16, 10 03:24:21 pm Message-ID: > > --- On Thu, 9/16/10, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I wonder if it's a conincidence that the PERQ POS > > filesystem recovery > > tool is also called 'scavenger' and that the PERQ > > filesystem also stores > > all the pointers at least twice so it's posisble to recover > > from quite > > bad disk corruption. Not that any PERQ had a dmountable > > hard disk. > > The Perq was the result of a visit (sabbatical?) at Xerox PARC > by one of the principals of Three Rivers Computer, much like Sure. It was Brian Rosen, I believe. > the way Lilith originated from Wirth's experiences there. > I believe that the original code name of the Perq was the > "PascAlto", referring to its obvious heritage, but with the Now that I hadn't heard. > intent to base the software on UCSD Pascal rather than BCPL. > Undoubtedly the Perq owes much to the Alto, as did every other > similar graphical workstation of that era. Absolutely. But I am curious as to how similar they are. Do schematics/Technical docs for the Alto exist anywhere? It would be interesting to compare them with those of the PERQ. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 17 13:20:40 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 19:20:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Diablo 30 disks and failure In-Reply-To: from "Mark Tapley" at Sep 17, 10 12:30:06 pm Message-ID: > >The Perq was the result of a visit (sabbatical?) at Xerox PARC > >by one of the principals of Three Rivers Computer, much like > >the way Lilith originated from Wirth's experiences there.... --Bill > > Ah, hah! Do I correctly surmise that the correct pronunciation of > "Perq" is /park/ = [pahrk] (cf dictionary.com "park") and not /p3rk/ > = [purk] (cf dictionary.com, "perk") ? Hmmm.. I've always heard it prodounced as 'purk'.... But 'park' would have a certain logic to it, based on the ancestry, I guess... Pascal Evaluation Really Quickly :-) [Note, I have also heard 'Execution' rather than 'Evaluation' and 'Real Quick' at the end...] -tony From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Sep 17 13:25:57 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 11:25:57 -0700 Subject: Diablo 30 disks and failure In-Reply-To: References: <248192.42861.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> from "William Maddox" at Sep 16, 10 03:24:21 pm Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 11:00 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Diablo 30 disks and failure > > > > > --- On Thu, 9/16/10, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > I wonder if it's a conincidence that the PERQ POS > > > filesystem recovery > > > tool is also called 'scavenger' and that the PERQ > > > filesystem also stores > > > all the pointers at least twice so it's posisble to recover > > > from quite > > > bad disk corruption. Not that any PERQ had a dmountable > > > hard disk. > > > > The Perq was the result of a visit (sabbatical?) at Xerox PARC > > by one of the principals of Three Rivers Computer, much like > > Sure. It was Brian Rosen, I believe. > > > the way Lilith originated from Wirth's experiences there. > > I believe that the original code name of the Perq was the > > "PascAlto", referring to its obvious heritage, but with the > > Now that I hadn't heard. > > > intent to base the software on UCSD Pascal rather than BCPL. > > Undoubtedly the Perq owes much to the Alto, as did every other > > similar graphical workstation of that era. > > Absolutely. But I am curious as to how similar they are. Do > schematics/Technical docs for the Alto exist anywhere? It would be > interesting to compare them with those of the PERQ. > There's plenty of documentation on the Alto on BitSavers -- Ian From legalize at xmission.com Fri Sep 17 14:07:29 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 13:07:29 -0600 Subject: SGI IRIS 3130 Joins the Collection In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 17 Sep 2010 11:05:15 -0700. <4C93ADDB.9060704@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4C93ADDB.9060704 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > On 9/17/10 10:56 AM, Richard wrote: > > > > > > Finally! I got a member of the IRIS 680x0 product line and its a nice one. > > Yup, fully loaded, it appears. > > Which disk controller does it have? I don't see any pics. It should either be a Qualogy or Interphase. Pics were taken by the seller. Its en route, but I have purchased it. I'll post a followup when its in my hands. I expect I'll want to image the hard drive before doing anything else. I imagine that the "GL2" OS these things need isn't exactly common. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 17 14:28:48 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 15:28:48 -0400 Subject: Chips as jewelry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C93C170.1040406@neurotica.com> On 9/12/10 10:12 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > If you see a bunch of his jewelery with weird chrome knobs or white > pilot light jewels, thank me, because I sold him the parts. > > Really people, get a grip - the stuff he sells is not super rare. I > have already talked to him about these things. Get a grip indeed. This is how good stuff (like LSI-11s) BECOMES rare. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Fri Sep 17 15:07:40 2010 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 12:07:40 -0800 Subject: SGI IRIS 3130 Joins the Collection In-Reply-To: References: <4c93addb.9060704@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4780F4CB50E.00000743n0body.h0me@inbox.com> Wow, definitely the biggest, baddest multibus machine I've ever seen . . . . > > Pics were taken by the seller. Its en route, but I have purchased it. > > I'll post a followup when its in my hands. I expect I'll want to > image the hard drive before doing anything else. I imagine that the > "GL2" OS these things need isn't exactly common. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for > download > > > Legalize Adulthood! ____________________________________________________________ TRY FREE IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if5 Capture screenshots, upload images, edit and send them to your friends through IMs, post on Twitter?, Facebook?, MySpace?, LinkedIn? ? FAST! From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 17 15:17:53 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 13:17:53 -0700 Subject: GNT 3601 tape punch docs? In-Reply-To: References: <4C9287AC.6040906@gifford.co.uk> from "John Honniball" at Sep 16, 10 10:10:04 pm, Message-ID: <4C936A81.4813.FFBE94@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Sep 2010 at 18:57, Tony Duell wrote: > We don;t even know that the PC is sending anything. Have you tried a > 'scope or breakout box or whatever to make sure the TxD line is doing > something when you try to send a character? > > Also, 'Null Modem Cable' covers a multitude of sins. What ahve you > done with the flkw control lines? Also, there might be a set of jumpers to change from current loop to RS232C. Many (if not most) punches tended to use current loop, parciularly in CNC applications, so it's a pretty fair guess that that's the way this one is set up. --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 16:01:23 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 16:01:23 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest: T-16hrs. Message-ID: I am at the hotel and about to start inspecting the show area. Soon we shall commence storming the Heron Point Building with never-before witnessed piles of ccmp and related ephemera. Everything that could have been done has been done, and that which should have been done and was not must wait for next year. We accept this and proceed. Twitterized folks can get updates by following @vcfmidwest. A uStream broadcast will begin sometime tomorrow morning, depending on factors of technology, polar alignment, sunspots and when I get up. View it here: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/chiclassiccomp Onward to non-fail and glory! Bring on the junk! -- S.7k chiclassiccomp.org From chd at chdickman.com Fri Sep 17 17:17:33 2010 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 18:17:33 -0400 Subject: Paging: Dave McGuire Message-ID: I haven't heard from you in a while. Send me an address that I can contact you at. Regards, Chuck Dickman chd at chdickman.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 17 17:22:04 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 18:22:04 -0400 Subject: Paging: Dave McGuire In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C93EA0C.7040706@neurotica.com> On 9/17/10 6:17 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: > I haven't heard from you in a while. Send me an address that I can contact > you at. > > Regards, > Chuck Dickman > chd at chdickman.com Hey Chuck, I'm sorry, I'm behind on my email due to a road trip, we just got home last night. I have your other email here and will reply shortly. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Sep 18 12:49:23 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 10:49:23 -0700 Subject: 6502 simulated at transistor level - right in your browser (JavaScript) Message-ID: <4C94FBA3.3020504@brouhaha.com> http://www.visual6502.org/JSSim/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 18 15:05:31 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 16:05:31 -0400 Subject: VCF Midwest: something to wet your appetite! In-Reply-To: <4C9389D1.1050901@comcast.net> References: <4C9389D1.1050901@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4C951B8B.4000209@neurotica.com> On 9/17/10 11:31 AM, Nick Allen wrote: > NEVER BEFORE SEEN BY THE PUBLIC: a Frankenstein Microcomputer!!! > > http://lh5.ggpht.com/_lkddKjPsPFU/TJOJIwCimrI/AAAAAAAABgY/6a0rGCjfs08/s640/_1020934.JPG > > > http://lh5.ggpht.com/_lkddKjPsPFU/TJOJGTKcIEI/AAAAAAAABgQ/FGZDkx1BC5I/s720/_1020933.JPG That's a beautifully-built machine! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pontus at Update.UU.SE Sat Sep 18 16:45:37 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 23:45:37 +0200 Subject: SGI IRIS 3130 Joins the Collection In-Reply-To: References: <4C93ADDB.9060704@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20100918214537.GA1718@Update.UU.SE> > > > Finally! I got a member of the IRIS 680x0 product line and its a nice one. > > > > Yup, fully loaded, it appears. I have one as well, fully loaded to I think. (almost all card slots were filled) > I'll post a followup when its in my hands. I expect I'll want to > image the hard drive before doing anything else. I imagine that the > "GL2" OS these things need isn't exactly common. Send me a mail and I'll tell you what I have :) /P From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sat Sep 18 17:06:10 2010 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles Morris) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 17:06:10 -0500 Subject: FS: manuals (photocopies) Message-ID: In cleaning my house I have discovered a complete and unused photocopy of the Teletype 33 service manual (Bulletin 310B Vol. 1 & 2) and 33 parts list (Bulletin 1184B). It weighs 9 lbs boxed. Also a new photocopy of the DEC PDP-8/L "Maintenance Manual Vol. 1 Oct. 1968". Chapters 1-5 plus readable schematics (8.5x11"). Shipping wt. 2 lbs. First reasonable offer gets one or both... shipping is inexpensive by Media Mail, from zip 65775. thanks Charles From tony.eros at machm.org Sat Sep 18 18:39:11 2010 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 19:39:11 -0400 Subject: FS: manuals (photocopies) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: $25 + shipping for the two? Sent from my iPhone On Sep 18, 2010, at 6:06 PM, Charles Morris wrote: > In cleaning my house I have discovered a complete and unused photocopy > of the Teletype 33 service manual (Bulletin 310B Vol. 1 & 2) and 33 > parts list (Bulletin 1184B). It weighs 9 lbs boxed. > > Also a new photocopy of the DEC PDP-8/L "Maintenance Manual Vol. 1 > Oct. 1968". Chapters 1-5 plus readable schematics (8.5x11"). Shipping > wt. 2 lbs. > > First reasonable offer gets one or both... shipping is inexpensive by > Media Mail, from zip 65775. > > thanks > Charles From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Sep 19 04:25:57 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 10:25:57 +0100 Subject: Unknown MicroVAX 2000 Board Message-ID: <002401cb57dc$ac1303a0$04390ae0$@ntlworld.com> I recently acquired a couple of MicroVAX 2000s. One of them has this board in it: http://cid-fc758a5a91b91301.office.live.com/self.aspx/Public/MV2000Board-1.j pg I don't know what this board is but it connects by two ribbon cables to connectors on the main board. Can anyone tell me what it is? Also one of the machines has faulty memory. I have removed the memory option and I am trying to identify it, but the marking says "2/4 MB MEMORY OPTION". Anyone know how to tell which one it is? Thanks Rob From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 05:51:23 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 06:51:23 -0400 Subject: Unknown MicroVAX 2000 Board In-Reply-To: <002401cb57dc$ac1303a0$04390ae0$@ntlworld.com> References: <002401cb57dc$ac1303a0$04390ae0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4C95EB2B.7060007@gmail.com> Rob Jarratt wrote: > Also one of the machines has faulty memory. I have removed the memory option > and I am trying to identify it, but the marking says "2/4 MB MEMORY OPTION". > Anyone know how to tell which one it is? Add up the sizes of the memory chips on the board. Peace... Sridhar From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Sep 19 06:08:59 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 04:08:59 -0700 Subject: Unknown MicroVAX 2000 Board In-Reply-To: <002401cb57dc$ac1303a0$04390ae0$@ntlworld.com> References: <002401cb57dc$ac1303a0$04390ae0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4C95EF4B.7070405@brouhaha.com> Rob Jarratt wrote: > I recently acquired a couple of MicroVAX 2000s. One of them has this board > in it [...] I don't know what this board is but it connects by two ribbon cables to > connectors on the main board. Can anyone tell me what it is? Since it has the AMD Am7990 (DEC 21-21672-07) "LANCE" Ethernet MAC and what appears to be an AMD Am7992 Ethernet transceiver (obscured by rework), it seems likely that it is the optional DESVA Ethernet interface module (installed as standard on VAXstation 2000). Note that the presence of an Ethernet connector on the KA410 main logic board doesn't mean that the machine has Ethernet; they just put the connector there but the necessary electronics is all on the separate module. Eric From ragooman at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 06:11:03 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 07:11:03 -0400 Subject: Unknown MicroVAX 2000 Board In-Reply-To: <4C95EB2B.7060007@gmail.com> References: <002401cb57dc$ac1303a0$04390ae0$@ntlworld.com> <4C95EB2B.7060007@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 6:51 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Rob Jarratt wrote: > >> Also one of the machines has faulty memory. I have removed the memory >> option >> and I am trying to identify it, but the marking says "2/4 MB MEMORY >> OPTION". >> Anyone know how to tell which one it is? >> > > Add up the sizes of the memory chips on the board. > > Peace... Sridhar > that 48pin Dip , AMD AM7990 is an Ethernet controller =Dan --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Sep 19 07:12:53 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 08:12:53 -0400 Subject: Unknown MicroVAX 2000 Board In-Reply-To: <4C95EF4B.7070405@brouhaha.com> References: <002401cb57dc$ac1303a0$04390ae0$@ntlworld.com> <4C95EF4B.7070405@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C95FE45.3040201@verizon.net> On 09/19/2010 07:08 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > Rob Jarratt wrote: > > I recently acquired a couple of MicroVAX 2000s. One of them has this > board > > in it [...] I don't know what this board is but it connects by two > ribbon cables to > > connectors on the main board. Can anyone tell me what it is? > > Since it has the AMD Am7990 (DEC 21-21672-07) "LANCE" Ethernet MAC and > what appears to be an AMD Am7992 Ethernet transceiver (obscured by > rework), it seems likely that it is the optional DESVA Ethernet > interface module (installed as standard on VAXstation 2000). Note > that the presence of an Ethernet connector on the KA410 main logic > board doesn't mean that the machine has Ethernet; they just put the > connector there but the necessary electronics is all on the separate > module. > > Eric > > It is the Ethernet board and yes the electronics were off the main board. It was not an option as MicroVAX2000s were all built with it. It was for repair purposes. The only variation common was memory. mostly because memory at the start of production was expensive. Allison From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Sep 19 08:05:10 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 14:05:10 +0100 Subject: Unknown MicroVAX 2000 Board In-Reply-To: <4C95FE45.3040201@verizon.net> References: <002401cb57dc$ac1303a0$04390ae0$@ntlworld.com> <4C95EF4B.7070405@brouhaha.com> <4C95FE45.3040201@verizon.net> Message-ID: <002c01cb57fb$4d8bda90$e8a38fb0$@ntlworld.com> > It is the Ethernet board and yes the electronics were off the main board. It > was not an option as MicroVAX2000s were all built with it. It was for repair > purposes. > The only variation common > was memory. mostly because memory at the start of production was > expensive. > > Allison So I have one with a DESVA and one without, I think they were both used for spares at some point , so perhaps one of the machines had to give up its DESVA as a replacement. Thanks to everyone for the information. Now I also know that I have a faulty 4MB memory option too. Unfortunately I don't really have the expertise or the equipment to diagnose and fix it. Regards Rob From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Sep 19 08:31:37 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 14:31:37 +0100 Subject: WTD: Clarion/JPI TopSpeed C (for Psion SIBO SDK) Message-ID: <4C9610B9.7080508@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, Pushing the boundaries of the Ten Year Rule here, but I think the "coolness factor" might apply here, so please don't get the pitchforks and flaming torches out just yet... :) I just got back from the Barnsley Hamfest, with a new toy in tow: a Psion Workabout MX, 2MB version, with IrDA, TTL, RS232 and LIF ports, a 256K flash SSD and a 1MB SRAM SSD. Batteries were -- predictably -- shot, but on installing a fresh pair of AAs, it booted to SIBO. Seems the SSDs are blank, and aside from a few small screen scratches the machine is in pretty good nick. Thing is, I'd like to see it do something useful. This dictates that I write some code for it... I've managed to find a copy of the old Psion Sibo SDK and some PDF documentation on an FTP site, but this doesn't include the C compiler required to compile the code: TopSpeed C. As near as I can tell, this was a 16-bit 8086 C compiler which generated code under (and for) MS-DOS type platforms. The Psion documentation references Topspeed Compiler v3.10 and Environment v3.10.002, but I suspect other versions may also work. Psion suggest it was released by Clarion, but every other reference I can find suggests it was sold be a company called "JPI". Does anyone happen to have a spare copy of Topspeed C kicking around? Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Sep 19 09:46:42 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 15:46:42 +0100 Subject: RD54 Whine In-Reply-To: <014701cb52b7$8547f750$8fd7e5f0$@ntlworld.com> References: <014701cb52b7$8547f750$8fd7e5f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <002d01cb5809$7c867e50$75937af0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > Sent: 12 September 2010 21:17 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RD54 Whine > > I have just acquired a MicroVAX 2000 which I found to contain an RD54. If I try > booting the machine from the disk you hear a whine, when the whine stops > you can hear the heads move, then when the heads stop moving you hear > the whine again. Is this a terminally sick disk? > > Thanks > > Rob I had a couple of private replies on this. Someone suggested turning the machine on its side, a change in sound might indicate a bearing problem and that otherwise it might be the servo mechanism. The noise and behaviour did not change. I don't think it is the bearing, because the heads do not move when it whines. I suspect it is trying to move the head and can't for some reason. I have opened up RD53s to fix the sticky bumper problem and am comfortable with that. But I recall others saying RD54s are another matter altogether. Do I have a chance of getting this disk working? Regards Rob From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 13:17:48 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 11:17:48 -0700 Subject: WTD: Clarion/JPI TopSpeed C (for Psion SIBO SDK) In-Reply-To: <4C9610B9.7080508@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C9610B9.7080508@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 6:31 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > As near as I can tell, this was a 16-bit 8086 C compiler which generated > code under (and for) MS-DOS type platforms. The Psion documentation > references Topspeed Compiler v3.10 and Environment v3.10.002, but I suspect > other versions may also work. Psion suggest it was released by Clarion, but > every other reference I can find suggests it was sold be a company called > "JPI". I know others will probably provide more info, but you are mostly correct. TopSpeed was originally sold and supported by (I believe) JPI, but they bought Clarion many years ago. These days, Clarion is the only remnants of the company. Clarion was originally the purveyors of the Clarion Development System, a 4GL-like system for DOS and (eventually) Windows. They merged with JPI to gain the compiler technology of TopSpeed. I don't know if you can still get the original compiler system from Clarion. Disclaimer: I worked for Clarion back in 1987 or so, back before TopSpeed and before they went into the world of Windows. I definitely have a bias. :) They're idiots. Mark From js at cimmeri.com Sun Sep 19 13:39:05 2010 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 13:39:05 -0500 Subject: Almost free: various DEC, HP, Fluke, Wyse items, for pickup Rockville, MD, USA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C9658C9.1080201@cimmeri.com> Items located in Rockville, MD, 20850. Almost free: $2 (two) dollars per item, local pickup only at this time, no photos. Special offer intended especially for anyone having a hard time due to economy. I'm needing to make space fast and clear out items without hassle of ebay, ads, photos, etc.. 1.California Computer Systems S-100 chassis, with 12-slot passive terminated backplane, power supply, fan, filter. The chassis functions perfectly, has been thoroughly cleaned, and the PSU caps have been reformed. Cosmetically, the chassis is decent: has dings, scratches, some minor bends in sheet metal. 2. Fluke 8520A/AS-1 rackmount digital multimeter with GPIB. Perfect cosmetic and functional condition. 3. Digital BA23 floor pedestal enclosure, complete with front + rear covers. Very decent shape. No yellowing (painted). 4. Digital LA100 Letterprinter w/ ribbons. Tested working. Mild yellowing of plastic but not disagreeable. 5. Digital LA75 Plus Companion Printer (LA75S-A2) w/ parallel + MMJ. Professionally refurbished and assumed working (but untested). Clean and nice cosmetic shape. No yellowing. 6. Wyse 60 terminal with keyboard and spare analog board. Terminal unit is in excellent shape all around, as is spare analog board. Keyboard works but 3 of the keycaps broke when it slid off my desk. No yellowing. 7. HP PA-RISC Model 712/60 computer with floppy, hard drive, new keyboard and new mouse. Currently loaded with the NEXT operating system. I have the original hard disk with HPUX on it. You can have one OR the other. Computer is in perfect cosmetic and working condition. My handle on ebay is MdntTrain if anyone wishes to verify my character and reputation. Email me if interested in any or all. I will select who the items go to. Thank you, John Singleton js at cimmeri.com From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Sep 19 13:52:39 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 11:52:39 -0700 Subject: Unknown MicroVAX 2000 Board In-Reply-To: <4C95FE45.3040201@verizon.net> References: <002401cb57dc$ac1303a0$04390ae0$@ntlworld.com> <4C95EF4B.7070405@brouhaha.com> <4C95FE45.3040201@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C965BF7.4090008@brouhaha.com> allison wrote: > It is the Ethernet board and yes the electronics were off the main board. It was not an option > as MicroVAX2000s were all built with it. Could be, though some of the manuals say that it was optional on the MicroVAX 2000 and standard on the VAXstation 2000. Eric From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 14:00:20 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 16:00:20 -0300 Subject: Almost free: various DEC, HP, Fluke, Wyse items, for pickup Rockville, MD, USA References: <4C9658C9.1080201@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <075301cb582d$3856db20$0600000a@portajara> > 2. Fluke 8520A/AS-1 rackmount digital multimeter with GPIB. Perfect > cosmetic and functional condition. I'd cry for it... From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 14:08:08 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 15:08:08 -0400 Subject: Unknown MicroVAX 2000 Board In-Reply-To: References: <002401cb57dc$ac1303a0$04390ae0$@ntlworld.com> <4C95EB2B.7060007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C965F98.6050804@gmail.com> Dan Roganti wrote: >>> Also one of the machines has faulty memory. I have removed the memory >>> option >>> and I am trying to identify it, but the marking says "2/4 MB MEMORY >>> OPTION". >>> Anyone know how to tell which one it is? >> >> Add up the sizes of the memory chips on the board. > > that 48pin Dip , AMD AM7990 is an Ethernet controller The OP was talking about two different boards, an unknown board, which is the ethernet controller, as well as a memory board, which is what I was talking about. Peace... Sridhar From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 14:21:43 2010 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 15:21:43 -0400 Subject: WTD: Clarion/JPI TopSpeed C (for Psion SIBO SDK) In-Reply-To: References: <4C9610B9.7080508@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 2:17 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: > On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 6:31 AM, Philip Pemberton > wrote: >> Hi guys, >> As near as I can tell, this was a 16-bit 8086 C compiler which generated >> code under (and for) MS-DOS type platforms. The Psion documentation >> references Topspeed Compiler v3.10 and Environment v3.10.002, but I suspect >> other versions may also work. Psion suggest it was released by Clarion, but >> every other reference I can find suggests it was sold be a company called >> "JPI". > > I know others will probably provide more info, but you are mostly > correct. ?TopSpeed was originally sold and supported by (I believe) > JPI, but they bought Clarion many years ago. ?These days, Clarion is > the only remnants of the company. ?Clarion was originally the > purveyors of the Clarion Development System, a 4GL-like system for DOS > and (eventually) Windows. ?They merged with JPI to gain the compiler > technology of TopSpeed. ?I don't know if you can still get the > original compiler system from Clarion. > > Disclaimer: ?I worked for Clarion back in 1987 or so, back before > TopSpeed and before they went into the world of Windows. ?I definitely > have a bias. :) ?They're idiots. > > Mark > IIRC, most SIBO programming was done in OPL rather than in C. I'm not sure how much better performance native C offers over OPL, but I'd certain think it would be worth trying out before you go crazy looking for some long-gone C compiler... Anyways, congratulations on the Workabout. I wish that there were still PDAs on the market that had the combo of super-readable screens, excellent keyboards and long battery life that Psion had back in the early 90s... Mike From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Sep 19 14:54:47 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 15:54:47 -0400 Subject: Unknown MicroVAX 2000 Board In-Reply-To: <4C965BF7.4090008@brouhaha.com> References: <002401cb57dc$ac1303a0$04390ae0$@ntlworld.com> <4C95EF4B.7070405@brouhaha.com> <4C95FE45.3040201@verizon.net> <4C965BF7.4090008@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C966A87.3070905@verizon.net> On 09/19/2010 02:52 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > allison wrote: > > It is the Ethernet board and yes the electronics were off the main > board. It was not an option > > as MicroVAX2000s were all built with it. > > Could be, though some of the manuals say that it was optional on the > MicroVAX 2000 and standard on the VAXstation 2000. > > Eric > I know but the number built says most people were smart enough to know it was much less usefull without networking. These days if you find one without it's because it was robbed and the chassis was used for a disk formatter (diags do that well!). Allison From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Sep 19 16:30:56 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 22:30:56 +0100 Subject: WTD: Clarion/JPI TopSpeed C (for Psion SIBO SDK) In-Reply-To: References: <4C9610B9.7080508@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C968110.10304@philpem.me.uk> On 19/09/10 20:21, Michael Kerpan wrote: > IIRC, most SIBO programming was done in OPL rather than in C. I'm not > sure how much better performance native C offers over OPL, but I'd > certain think it would be worth trying out before you go crazy looking > for some long-gone C compiler... Yeah, the attraction of C was basically that I already know the language, so I just have to learn the API. In theory, that shouldn't be hard with all the Psion SDK docs and some example code to play with. And I'm lazy. If I don't have to learn a new language, I won't :) Oh, and the Sibo SDK should (in theory) produce code which would work on my Acorn Pocketbook (the Mk1, not the Mk2, but I do have the serial cable and PSU). Said machine does *not* have OPL... :( > Anyways, congratulations on the Workabout. I wish that there were > still PDAs on the market that had the combo of super-readable screens, > excellent keyboards and long battery life that Psion had back in the > early 90s... Heh, funny story. Another guy was arguing with the seller on price... "I figure it's worth at least a tenner!" "Are you mad, the batteries aren't charged. And there isn't even a serial cable with it!" At this point I spot the Psion badge and pick the thing up... and realise what it is (in short: a Sibo organiser in a ruggedised case, but with standard ports). Serial port is straight RS232, with a TTL port next to it, IRDA on the bottom and a Psion LIF port next to that. Two AA Nicads to run the organiser (Psion seem to like those) and a CR1620 Lithium to do RAM backup. At this point the other guy is still haggling. I figured ten quid was worth it, even if it was only good for parts value... "What about two quid?" "That's a bloody insult!" "I'll take it for a tenner." "Bah, you're mad! It'll never work!" The AAs were already on my shelf (I keep a few charged Eneloops and several boxes of Duracell ProCell AAs and PP3s and Extralife Lithium PP3s on standby for multimeters, clocks and TV remotes) and the CR1620s didn't cost me a thing -- struck a deal with another seller for two 9Ah 12V VRLA batteries, and he threw in a pack of 1620s for free. That and the CCTV cameras makes this a pretty fun day. Always wanted to have a play with machine vision, now I have some cameras and just need a few C or CS-mount lenses... (seriously, half a dozen cameras at 50p each, there was no reason *not* to take the whole box). Cheers, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Sep 19 17:35:50 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 23:35:50 +0100 Subject: WTD: Clarion/JPI TopSpeed C (for Psion SIBO SDK) In-Reply-To: References: <4C9610B9.7080508@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C969046.4@philpem.me.uk> On 19/09/10 19:17, Mark Davidson wrote: > Clarion was originally the > purveyors of the Clarion Development System, a 4GL-like system for DOS > and (eventually) Windows. Apparently good for databases and business apps. The British magazine "PC Plus" put a demo version of Clarion on a CD a while ago (1996/1997 timeframe), and did a whole series of articles on how to use it. Didn't seem to make it any more popular though. I always used Delphi and the BDE for quick database apps, and C, newt (Erik Troan's windowing toolkit) and one of the SQL engines (sqlite, mysql or postgres) for the more advanced stuff. > They merged with JPI to gain the compiler > technology of TopSpeed. I don't know if you can still get the > original compiler system from Clarion. It looks like you can still get Clarion, but TopSpeed C seems to be long gone. Clarion now seems to be owned by SoftVelocity, who are advertising the fact that it has a Modula-2 and C++ compiler in addition to Clarion 4GL, but there's no sign of a separate compiler option. Website is http://www.softvelocity.com/Clarion/Clarion.htm for anyone who cares... > Disclaimer: I worked for Clarion back in 1987 or so, back before > TopSpeed and before they went into the world of Windows. I definitely > have a bias. :) They're idiots. I could name a lot of software companies who could be described as "idiots".... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From bqt at softjar.se Fri Sep 17 12:20:40 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 19:20:40 +0200 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C93A368.4070008@softjar.se> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Richard wrote: >> > In article<744DB5469BEB4131832EC66D4BA961F6 at dell8300>, >> > "Teo Zenios" writes: >> > >>> >> How well would a VT525 work with a MicroVAX 3100 series model 80? >> > >> > says the VT525 is a color multi-session >> > terminal. So that's a fairly decent model for the 500 series. >> > >> > Judging from the programmer's manual, you can select from a palette of >> > 16 colors. >> > > > Unfortunately, it uses the later ANSI color stuff rather than the > control codes used previously with the VT340/VT241. Sorry, I've been out of town some, and have not had time to make comments for a while. As for the previous stuff on modem signals and so on, I was caught in a small lie, yes. Properly, it isn't right to hook to DTEs together with a crossed cable. But I'm willing to cheat on that one. I'll let the rest of the RS-232 stuff rest unless we really want to revive that thread... As for the VT525, yes, it is correct that it's just a base unit with no screen or keyboard. It has a normal VGA connector for any VGA screen on the back, along with two MMJ connectors and two DB-25 connectors (unless my memory fails me). As for colors, well... The VT241 and VT340 have no way at all to select colors for text. You can, however, select that different attributes, such as bold and so on, instead be rendered in other colors. And the VT525 can do that as well. So it is as compatible with the older terminals as much as is possible. But, people might say, I have seen output in different colors on the VT340... Yes, you can do output in all colors on those older terminals. The problem is, you need to switch to REGIS to do that. Ie, you do that when playing around in graphic mode, which the VT525 don't have, so there is no way it could do this in a way that would be compatible with the older color VT terminals, with less than implementing the full REGIS stuff. So, in the end, implementing the ANSI color codes was the only reasonable way to get colored output on the VT525, and it is nice to have... I like playing Beyond Zork with color and primitive graphics on my PDP11... :-) Johnny From s.kheireddine at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 15:33:16 2010 From: s.kheireddine at gmail.com (Kheireddine Saidi) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 21:33:16 +0100 Subject: GNT 3601 tape punch docs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C93D08C.8040107@gmail.com> Hi, No, nothing happens. What power supply do you mean? the one of the puncher, yes i think it's ok, cuz as I push one of the buttons of the puncher (the tiny holes puncher and the all holes puncher) it does what it's intended to do. Well, i tried multiple setups, i don't really remember what i did try. About the null modem cable, I wired as follows: 20 DTR - 6 DSR (puncher - puncher) 3 RD (puncher) - 3 TD (PC) 7 Gnd - 5 Gnd 4 DTR - 6 DSR (PC - PC) Note that I didn't try the TX from puncher side, cuz I think it's not returning useful data. Right now, i hooked a led and a resistor to the TX of the PC, I see it flashing as i send some data, then I'll assume the PC is correctly sending. Something comes to my mind, I remember from the days that I programmed PIC MCUs that the serial port of a laptop operates at low voltages, 3V I think. Can it be the problem here? But according to the specifications of the manufacturer, the puncher deals with 3V communication. Hope to get a reply soon, tsch?ss From chrise at pobox.com Fri Sep 17 19:27:51 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 19:27:51 -0500 Subject: GNT 3601 tape punch docs? In-Reply-To: <4C9260E7.3010706@gmail.com> References: <4C9260E7.3010706@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100918002751.GA21923@n0jcf.net> I recently got one of these 3601's up and running. I was able to obtain a .jpg scan of a manual page which shows how to set the 8-pos DIP switches in the unit for baud rate, bits/char, etc. I've attached it here (might not make it to the list so I've cc:'d the OP directly too. I apologize for the quality but that is how I received the document, which I was grateful for nonetheless. It wasn't too difficult to get the serial port stuff sorted out but the punch mechanism itself was a bit more of a challenge. The pins were seizing in their raceways and ultimately stopping the motor which would then cause an overcurrent shutdown. I had to disassemble the punch, free each of the punch pins, properly clean and then lightly oil the punch block and pins and after that it worked real well. Too well actually, you can burn through a roll of tape in short order with that thing ;-) Chris On Thursday (09/16/2010 at 07:24PM +0100), Kheireddine Saidi wrote: > Hello, > > I need to interface a GNT 3601 puncher to make some tapes, I didn't > succeed yet. I asked for the pinouts from the manufacturer. According to > their document, the communication could be done at 50, 75, 100, 110, > 134.5, 150, 200, 300, 600 and 1200 bauds. and the pinouts are: > > 1 N.C. > 2 Transmitted Data > 3 Received Data > 4 N.C. > 5 N.C > 6 Data Set Ready > 7 GND > 8-12 N.C. > 13 Current Loop Receive, - > 14-17 N.C. > 18 Current Loop Receive, + > 19 N.C. > 20 Data Terminal Ready > 21-24 N.C. > 25 DC Output, 12v 20mA max > > Then I made a null modem cable and connected to the PC, but i can't get > anything punched using windows terminal or the program that i wrote, at > 300bauds and neither at 1200 bauds. > > I would appreciate your help, thanks. -- Chris Elmquist From wgungfu at gmail.com Sat Sep 18 16:04:55 2010 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 16:04:55 -0500 Subject: 6502 simulated at transistor level - right in your browser (JavaScript) In-Reply-To: <4C94FBA3.3020504@brouhaha.com> References: <4C94FBA3.3020504@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: Getting a javascropt "object doesn't support this property or method" in wires.js. Marty On Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 12:49 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > ?http://www.visual6502.org/JSSim/ > > > From nick.allen at comcast.net Sun Sep 19 09:20:10 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 09:20:10 -0500 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C961C1A.1070600@comcast.net> Some GOOD news, at the Midwest VCF, Chris (from St Paul, don't remember last name) and Eric Kudzin were huge helps and took Jim S's recommendation and repaired the 5V Op Amp fixing the 5V issue and now the Disk Drive SPINS! We still need to repair the CRT and diagnose the rest of the system, but we are making progress!! Thank you Jim (for the amazing feat of properly diagnosing remotely via schematics) and thank you Chris and Eric for your endless hours of help at the VCF!' I will keep everyone posted as we progress, Eric and I will be working over the next several months to restore the Alto! From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Sep 19 17:57:31 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 15:57:31 -0700 Subject: 6502 simulated at transistor level - right in your browser (JavaScript) In-Reply-To: References: <4C94FBA3.3020504@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C96955B.3040101@brouhaha.com> Martin Goldberg wrote: > Getting a javascropt "object doesn't support this property or method" > in wires.js. Using what browser and version on what platform? From bear at typewritten.org Sun Sep 19 18:03:15 2010 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 16:03:15 -0700 Subject: SGI IRIS 3130 Joins the Collection In-Reply-To: <4C93ADDB.9060704@bitsavers.org> References: <4C93ADDB.9060704@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sep 17, 2010, at 11:05 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > Which disk controller does it have? I don't see any pics. It should > either be a Qualogy or Interphase. For it to be an actual 3130, it would have to be an Interphase (Storager II). The SMD controller used in the rackmount IRIS is also made by Interphase (2190), but it would not be found in a 3130. ok bear From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 18:09:30 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 18:09:30 -0500 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <4C961C1A.1070600@comcast.net> References: <4C961C1A.1070600@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 9:20 AM, Nick Allen wrote: > ?Some GOOD news, at the Midwest VCF, Chris (from St Paul, don't remember > last name) and Eric Kudzin were huge helps and took Jim S's recommendation > and repaired the 5V Op Amp fixing the 5V issue and now the Disk Drive SPINS! Great news! I was so busy there I didn't even hear about this. It's great to know we've got a helpful ccmp community coming together here in the Chicago area. Really glad you made it to the show! -- jht From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 18:43:08 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 16:43:08 -0700 Subject: WTD: Clarion/JPI TopSpeed C (for Psion SIBO SDK) In-Reply-To: <4C969046.4@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C9610B9.7080508@philpem.me.uk> <4C969046.4@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 3:35 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 19/09/10 19:17, Mark Davidson wrote: >> >> Clarion was originally the >> purveyors of the Clarion Development System, a 4GL-like system for DOS >> and (eventually) Windows. > > Apparently good for databases and business apps. The British magazine "PC > Plus" put a demo version of Clarion on a CD a while ago (1996/1997 > timeframe), and did a whole series of articles on how to use it. That was one of the incredibly frustrating things about Clarion... they had a pretty good product and yes, it was good for database and business apps. However, they made some incredibly bad decisions, and the company itself was full of unhappy people. Many people who used Clarion loved Clarion. I remember my 2nd day there... the team of developers I had joined (there were 5 of us) spent the entire lunch telling me how much the company sucked and how I had better like my salary because raises were nonexistent. Nice, eh? > Didn't seem to make it any more popular though. I always used Delphi and the > BDE for quick database apps, and C, newt (Erik Troan's windowing toolkit) > and one of the SQL engines (sqlite, mysql or postgres) for the more advanced > stuff. No... they decided they wanted to compete with Ashton-Tate. They lost. >> They merged with JPI to gain the compiler >> >> technology of TopSpeed. ?I don't know if you can still get the >> original compiler system from Clarion. > > It looks like you can still get Clarion, but TopSpeed C seems to be long > gone. Clarion now seems to be owned by SoftVelocity, who are advertising the > fact that it has a Modula-2 and C++ compiler in addition to Clarion 4GL, but > there's no sign of a separate compiler option. SoftVelocity is the name of the merged company. The compilers are only available to use with Clarion itself AFAIK. > Website is http://www.softvelocity.com/Clarion/Clarion.htm for anyone who > cares... > >> Disclaimer: ?I worked for Clarion back in 1987 or so, back before >> TopSpeed and before they went into the world of Windows. ?I definitely >> have a bias. :) ?They're idiots. > > I could name a lot of software companies who could be described as > "idiots".... Oh, so could I. I just got out of there as fast as I could... it was the shortest employment period of my life. Mark From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Sun Sep 19 19:16:07 2010 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 20:16:07 -0400 Subject: Almost free: various DEC, HP, Fluke, Wyse items, for pickup Rockville,MD, USA In-Reply-To: <4C9658C9.1080201@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: Dear Mr. Singleton, I am located in Silver Spring and would very much like (and would be able to pick up at your convince) the CCS S-100 chasis and the Fluke DMM. Thanks Very Much, Bill Sudbrink > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of js at cimmeri.com > Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 2:39 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Almost free: various DEC, HP, Fluke, Wyse items, for pickup > Rockville,MD, USA > > > > Items located in Rockville, MD, 20850. > > Almost free: $2 (two) dollars per item, local pickup only at this time, > no photos. > > Special offer intended especially for anyone having a hard time due to > economy. > I'm needing to make space fast and clear out items without hassle of > ebay, ads, photos, etc.. > > > 1.California Computer Systems S-100 chassis, with 12-slot passive terminated > backplane, power supply, fan, filter. The chassis functions > perfectly, has been thoroughly cleaned, > and the PSU caps have been reformed. Cosmetically, the chassis > is decent: has dings, scratches, > some minor bends in sheet metal. > > 2. Fluke 8520A/AS-1 rackmount digital multimeter with GPIB. Perfect > cosmetic and functional condition. > > 3. Digital BA23 floor pedestal enclosure, complete with front + rear > covers. Very decent shape. No yellowing (painted). > > 4. Digital LA100 Letterprinter w/ ribbons. Tested working. Mild > yellowing of plastic but not disagreeable. > > 5. Digital LA75 Plus Companion Printer (LA75S-A2) w/ parallel + MMJ. > Professionally refurbished > and assumed working (but untested). Clean and nice cosmetic > shape. No yellowing. > > 6. Wyse 60 terminal with keyboard and spare analog board. Terminal > unit is in excellent shape all around, as is > spare analog board. Keyboard works but 3 of the keycaps broke > when it slid off my desk. No yellowing. > > 7. HP PA-RISC Model 712/60 computer with floppy, hard drive, new > keyboard and new mouse. Currently > loaded with the NEXT operating system. I have the original hard > disk with HPUX on it. You can have > one OR the other. Computer is in perfect cosmetic and working > condition. > > My handle on ebay is MdntTrain if anyone wishes to verify my character > and reputation. > Email me if interested in any or all. I will select who the items go to. > > Thank you, > John Singleton > js at cimmeri.com > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3143 - Release Date: 09/19/10 02:34:00 > From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Sun Sep 19 19:19:53 2010 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 20:19:53 -0400 Subject: Almost free: various DEC, HP, Fluke, Wyse items,for pickup Rockville,MD, USA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh Shoot! Meant that to be a private message. Sorry to the list. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Bill Sudbrink > Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 8:16 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Almost free: various DEC, HP, Fluke, Wyse items,for pickup > Rockville,MD, USA > > > Dear Mr. Singleton, > > I am located in Silver Spring and would very much like (and would be > able to pick up at your convince) the CCS S-100 chasis and the Fluke > DMM. > > Thanks Very Much, > Bill Sudbrink > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of js at cimmeri.com > > Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 2:39 PM > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Almost free: various DEC, HP, Fluke, Wyse items, for pickup > > Rockville,MD, USA > > > > > > > > Items located in Rockville, MD, 20850. > > > > Almost free: $2 (two) dollars per item, local pickup only at this time, > > no photos. > > > > Special offer intended especially for anyone having a hard time due to > > economy. > > I'm needing to make space fast and clear out items without hassle of > > ebay, ads, photos, etc.. > > > > > > 1.California Computer Systems S-100 chassis, with 12-slot passive terminated > > backplane, power supply, fan, filter. The chassis functions > > perfectly, has been thoroughly cleaned, > > and the PSU caps have been reformed. Cosmetically, the chassis > > is decent: has dings, scratches, > > some minor bends in sheet metal. > > > > 2. Fluke 8520A/AS-1 rackmount digital multimeter with GPIB. Perfect > > cosmetic and functional condition. > > > > 3. Digital BA23 floor pedestal enclosure, complete with front + rear > > covers. Very decent shape. No yellowing (painted). > > > > 4. Digital LA100 Letterprinter w/ ribbons. Tested working. Mild > > yellowing of plastic but not disagreeable. > > > > 5. Digital LA75 Plus Companion Printer (LA75S-A2) w/ parallel + MMJ. > > Professionally refurbished > > and assumed working (but untested). Clean and nice cosmetic > > shape. No yellowing. > > > > 6. Wyse 60 terminal with keyboard and spare analog board. Terminal > > unit is in excellent shape all around, as is > > spare analog board. Keyboard works but 3 of the keycaps broke > > when it slid off my desk. No yellowing. > > > > 7. HP PA-RISC Model 712/60 computer with floppy, hard drive, new > > keyboard and new mouse. Currently > > loaded with the NEXT operating system. I have the original hard > > disk with HPUX on it. You can have > > one OR the other. Computer is in perfect cosmetic and working > > condition. > > > > My handle on ebay is MdntTrain if anyone wishes to verify my character > > and reputation. > > Email me if interested in any or all. I will select who the items go to. > > > > Thank you, > > John Singleton > > js at cimmeri.com > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3143 - Release Date: 09/19/10 02:34:00 > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3143 - Release Date: 09/19/10 14:34:00 > From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 01:07:19 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 01:07:19 -0500 Subject: VCFMW5.0: Success! Message-ID: Old computers. A running network. Friends. Dinner. Community. New innovations in old gear. Aching backs. A lot of laughs. A little bit of capacitor smoke in the air. Alas, another VCF has passed - but what a time it was! While the seeds of plans for next year sprout, our first priority is to collect documents of this event. If you took pictures or video and have them hosted somewhere, and would like them up on the vcfmw page, please send me a link and I'll post it ASAP. You'll find them here: http://vcfmw.org I feel I can speak on behalf of the other vcfmw organizers and the Chicago-area retrocomputing community at large when I issue a big THANK YOU to all who attended, whether it was from our own backyard or from out across the plains. You are what made the show work - without your enthusiasm, knowledge and spirit we'd have been a lonely bunch in the basement. There are a few shirts remaining, if anyone wants one for posterity. I will count them up and post a list soon. I do know we're sold out of "XL" and have a number of "L" left, along with a few M and XXL. There are mostly black ones with a few blue (which proved more popular than expected.) The front design is here (the back is just the URL:) http://picasaweb.google.com/Silent700/VCFMW50OfficialGraphics#5512512730455260610 Again, thanks to all who attended, helped out and made it an awesome night. It's events like this that keep the hobby alive and strong. -j -- From jws at jwsss.com Sun Sep 19 18:48:50 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 16:48:50 -0700 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <4C961C1A.1070600@comcast.net> References: <4C961C1A.1070600@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4C96A162.5000506@jwsss.com> Glad to hear it was that. Hope that the mechanical bits can be made to work as well. How about setting up the cpu system, etc, have you assessed that part yet? what about software, etc. Jim On 9/19/2010 7:20 AM, Nick Allen wrote: > Some GOOD news, at the Midwest VCF, Chris (from St Paul, don't > remember last name) and Eric Kudzin were huge helps and took Jim S's > recommendation and repaired the 5V Op Amp fixing the 5V issue and now > the Disk Drive SPINS! We still need to repair the CRT and diagnose > the rest of the system, but we are making progress!! > > Thank you Jim (for the amazing feat of properly diagnosing remotely > via schematics) and thank you Chris and Eric for your endless hours of > help at the VCF!' > > I will keep everyone posted as we progress, Eric and I will be working > over the next several months to restore the Alto! > > From wgungfu at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 19:11:14 2010 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 19:11:14 -0500 Subject: 6502 simulated at transistor level - right in your browser (JavaScript) In-Reply-To: <4C96955B.3040101@brouhaha.com> References: <4C94FBA3.3020504@brouhaha.com> <4C96955B.3040101@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: IE8, Windows XP On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 5:57 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > ?Martin Goldberg wrote: >> Getting a javascropt "object doesn't support this property or method" >> in wires.js. > > Using what browser and version on what platform? > From chrise at pobox.com Sun Sep 19 20:14:07 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 20:14:07 -0500 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <4C961C1A.1070600@comcast.net> References: <4C961C1A.1070600@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20100920011407.GC21591@n0jcf.net> ah, that was me. Was a great time and really a blast to dig into the Alto. We definitely improvised, not having a stock of uA709 opamp on hand... we just bypassed that regulator circuit and stuck a 7805 there instead, which was pilfered from Vince Briel's spare parts stock for his Altair8800micro kits. Too much fun. Good luck Nick and keep us posted. Chris On Sunday (09/19/2010 at 09:20AM -0500), Nick Allen wrote: > Some GOOD news, at the Midwest VCF, Chris (from St Paul, don't remember > last name) and Eric Kudzin were huge helps and took Jim S's > recommendation and repaired the 5V Op Amp fixing the 5V issue and now > the Disk Drive SPINS! We still need to repair the CRT and diagnose the > rest of the system, but we are making progress!! > > Thank you Jim (for the amazing feat of properly diagnosing remotely via > schematics) and thank you Chris and Eric for your endless hours of help > at the VCF!' > > I will keep everyone posted as we progress, Eric and I will be working > over the next several months to restore the Alto! -- Chris Elmquist From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Sep 20 09:26:36 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 07:26:36 -0700 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <20100920011407.GC21591@n0jcf.net> References: <4C961C1A.1070600@comcast.net> <20100920011407.GC21591@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4C976F1C.1000500@bitsavers.org> On 9/19/10 6:14 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > ah, that was me. > > we just bypassed > that regulator circuit and stuck a 7805 there instead I don't know how long that will survive, since it is only a 1A regulator dropping 10v (15 -> 5) From mardy at voysys.com Mon Sep 20 11:50:02 2010 From: mardy at voysys.com (Marden P. Marshall) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 12:50:02 -0400 Subject: How to prevent yellowing of equipment on display Message-ID: <4B76AEEC-7AB2-4074-ABD8-3B2A817EC805@voysys.com> I know that there has been a tremendous amount of talk about removing yellowing from vintage equipment, but going forward, does anyone have any suggestions for helping prevent yellowing of equipment on display, short of keeping them in a dark cave? I have a couple of Apple II's that are in excellent condition with minimal yellowing and would like to put them on display without having to worry about damage to the plastic. -Mardy From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 11:52:02 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 12:52:02 -0400 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <4C93A368.4070008@softjar.se> References: <4C93A368.4070008@softjar.se> Message-ID: On 9/17/10, Johnny Billquist wrote: > So, in the end, implementing the ANSI color codes was the only > reasonable way to get colored output on the VT525, and it is nice to > have... I like playing Beyond Zork with color and primitive graphics on > my PDP11... :-) Ooh! Now you have my attention. Long ago, I grabbed the ITF Z-machine source code and got it working under VMS 4.x (it was trivial once I had a working curses library), so I was able to run an number of v3 games on our 11/750, but now that there are many more Z-machine choices, I haven't gone back to fiddle with newer game file types. I haven't seen a VT525 in the wild, but now I know what to do to show it off if I do get one (but now I'm also wondering what it would take to get what you have working on a Tektronix 4105 since I have a couple of those). -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Mon Sep 20 12:37:23 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 11:37:23 -0600 Subject: How to prevent yellowing of equipment on display In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 20 Sep 2010 12:50:02 -0400. <4B76AEEC-7AB2-4074-ABD8-3B2A817EC805@voysys.com> Message-ID: I believe the best you can do is to prevent strong UV exposure. However, there are indications that no matter what you do, some yellowing will occur due to the breakdown of fire retardent additives to the plastic. It is believed that UV exposure accelerates this breakdown. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Sep 20 12:42:43 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 11:42:43 -0600 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 20 Sep 2010 12:52:02 -0400. Message-ID: In article , Ethan Dicks writes: > I haven't seen a VT525 in the wild, but now I know what to do to show > it off if I do get one (but now I'm also wondering what it would take > to get what you have working on a Tektronix 4105 since I have a couple > of those). It shouldn't take much with a proper termcap/terminfo entry for the 4105. If you need escape codes, consult the 4105 programmer's reference on bitsavers: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 20 13:11:48 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 11:11:48 -0700 Subject: How to prevent yellowing of equipment on display In-Reply-To: <4B76AEEC-7AB2-4074-ABD8-3B2A817EC805@voysys.com> References: <4B76AEEC-7AB2-4074-ABD8-3B2A817EC805@voysys.com> Message-ID: <4C974174.8416.76EE2A@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Sep 2010 at 12:50, Marden P. Marshall wrote: > I know that there has been a tremendous amount of talk about removing > yellowing from vintage equipment, but going forward, does anyone have > any suggestions for helping prevent yellowing of equipment on display, > short of keeping them in a dark cave? I have a couple of Apple II's > that are in excellent condition with minimal yellowing and would like > to put them on display without having to worry about damage to the > plastic. Pack the equipment away with some dessicant and some activated charcoal (to absorb any outgassing products) and stick it in cold storage. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 13:17:51 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 14:17:51 -0400 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/20/10, Richard wrote: > > In article , > Ethan Dicks writes: > >> I haven't seen a VT525 in the wild, but now I know what to do to show >> it off if I do get one (but now I'm also wondering what it would take >> to get what you have working on a Tektronix 4105 since I have a couple >> of those). > > It shouldn't take much with a proper termcap/terminfo entry for the > 4105. For the basic curses stuff, that's all pretty standard. It was more the color fonts and color graphics that I was figuring might take some effort. > If you need escape codes, consult the 4105 programmer's > reference on bitsavers: > Thanks for the reference (it's always good to know where such things are), but as unusual as it sounds, my terminals came with docs on paper. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 13:24:16 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 14:24:16 -0400 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <4C979E3A.50109@softjar.se> References: <4C979E3A.50109@softjar.se> Message-ID: On 9/20/10, Johnny Billquist wrote: > I suspect you'd also have to work on whatever Z-machine implementation > you use to actually make it use both ANSI color control, and also user > defined fonts. And then, of course, you need a font. Right. > I don't think you want to go down that path. :-) I do understand how involved that could be. > I did say "primitive" graphics. Beyond Zork uses font 3 to play with > some crude graphics. Basically mapping, and some bar charts and nice > framing. And, of course, it uses color if possible. I've been up to my elbows in more than one Z-machine, so I do have a clue about the scope. > But if you are interested, I can send you my Z-machine font definitions > for the VT200, VT200, VT400 and VT500 terminals, so you don't have to > define those yourself. Yes! I do happen to have a handy VT240 base (need to dig out a friendly color monitor for it). That would be really cool to see. > As for playing, if you just have a VT525, it's easy to test, by just > logging in to Mim.Update.UU.SE, and play any Infocom game on that > machine. My Z-machine for the PDP-11 do handle the font and color stuff > for the VT terminals (of course). :-) Nice. I don't have anything newer than a VT320, but I have lots of stuff from the 1970s and 1980s. It will be interesting to see what's the different terminals can display from the same app. Back in the day, we had a mix of real VT100s, VT101s, VT220s and C-Itoh clones (which were essentially 100% VT100 compatible, but with a few extended features that we occasionally took advantage of - like using the "printer" port for a second host connection on the C-Itoh 101e). Please feel free to send me a tarball or a URL. I'm always interested in new and different Z-machines. Naturally I have all of the .DAT files already. -ethan From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Mon Sep 20 13:27:36 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 11:27:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to prevent yellowing of equipment on display In-Reply-To: <4B76AEEC-7AB2-4074-ABD8-3B2A817EC805@voysys.com> References: <4B76AEEC-7AB2-4074-ABD8-3B2A817EC805@voysys.com> Message-ID: <871191.15990.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Maybe SPF 50? Seriously, I'd say probably limiting exposure to sunlight and/or florescent lighting. I believe some (all?) clear polycarbonate plastics will filter UV as well to some degree, so maybe a clear case? ________________________________ From: Marden P. Marshall To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Mon, September 20, 2010 11:50:02 AM Subject: How to prevent yellowing of equipment on display I know that there has been a tremendous amount of talk about removing yellowing from vintage equipment, but going forward, does anyone have any suggestions for helping prevent yellowing of equipment on display, short of keeping them in a dark cave? I have a couple of Apple II's that are in excellent condition with minimal yellowing and would like to put them on display without having to worry about damage to the plastic. -Mardy From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 13:31:10 2010 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 14:31:10 -0400 Subject: How to prevent yellowing of equipment on display In-Reply-To: <4C974174.8416.76EE2A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B76AEEC-7AB2-4074-ABD8-3B2A817EC805@voysys.com> <4C974174.8416.76EE2A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 2:11 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 20 Sep 2010 at 12:50, Marden P. Marshall wrote: > >> I know that there has been a tremendous amount of talk about removing >> yellowing from vintage equipment, but going forward, does anyone have >> any suggestions for helping prevent yellowing of equipment on display, >> short of keeping them in a dark cave? ?I have a couple of Apple II's >> that are in excellent condition with minimal yellowing and would like >> to put them on display without having to worry about damage to the >> plastic. > > Pack the equipment away with some dessicant and some activated > charcoal (to absorb any outgassing products) and stick it in cold > storage. > > --Chuck Frankly, that seems a bit much. Given that there are ways to reverse that yellowing if it occurs (google "retrobrite" for more info), I'd say that simply limiting exposure to UV is an adequate measure. If things happen anyway, at least you'll know it can be fixed. Mike From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 20 13:32:19 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 11:32:19 -0700 Subject: Sighted on CL: Sun SparcStations FS (Oregon) Message-ID: <4C974643.16611.89B73F@cclist.sydex.com> Don't know if this interests anyone, but I spotted this in the local Craigslist: http://eugene.craigslist.org/sys/1963898368.html On the same day's postings, I note that the UofO is surplusing an LSI ADM-31 terminal for $50. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Sep 20 13:49:49 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 11:49:49 -0700 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <20100920011407.GC21591@n0jcf.net> References: <4C961C1A.1070600@comcast.net> <20100920011407.GC21591@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4a1fc98c909ce04df6e5c6935681bda8@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Sep 19, at 6:14 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > ah, that was me. > > Was a great time and really a blast to dig into the Alto. We > definitely > improvised, not having a stock of uA709 opamp on hand... we just > bypassed > that regulator circuit and stuck a 7805 there instead, which was > pilfered > from Vince Briel's spare parts stock for his Altair8800micro kits. > Too much fun. If the 709 was a TO-99 (can) package and you need to replace it, I have lots of 741's in TO-99. Just mentioning it in case it is difficult to find a 709 in TO-99. (DIP should be easy to find something to substitute.) > Good luck Nick and keep us posted. > > Chris > > On Sunday (09/19/2010 at 09:20AM -0500), Nick Allen wrote: >> Some GOOD news, at the Midwest VCF, Chris (from St Paul, don't >> remember >> last name) and Eric Kudzin were huge helps and took Jim S's >> recommendation and repaired the 5V Op Amp fixing the 5V issue and now >> the Disk Drive SPINS! We still need to repair the CRT and diagnose >> the >> rest of the system, but we are making progress!! >> >> Thank you Jim (for the amazing feat of properly diagnosing remotely >> via >> schematics) and thank you Chris and Eric for your endless hours of >> help >> at the VCF!' >> >> I will keep everyone posted as we progress, Eric and I will be working >> over the next several months to restore the Alto! From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 20 13:54:20 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 11:54:20 -0700 Subject: How to prevent yellowing of equipment on display In-Reply-To: References: <4B76AEEC-7AB2-4074-ABD8-3B2A817EC805@voysys.com>, <4C974174.8416.76EE2A@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4C974B6C.6404.9DE004@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Sep 2010 at 14:31, Michael Kerpan wrote: > Frankly, that seems a bit much. Given that there are ways to reverse > that yellowing if it occurs (google "retrobrite" for more info), I'd > say that simply limiting exposure to UV is an adequate measure. If > things happen anyway, at least you'll know it can be fixed. There are a number of articles that have been published by conservators for museums that limiting UV exposure doesn't prevent the degradation of plastics. Indeed, it's a big headache now for museums and no one's come up with any satisfactory answer to the problem. Cold storage at least slows the process. I've had gear packed away (in the dark) for 20 years that was in good shape cosmetically but now is yellowed. At no time did the stuff get any appreciable exposure to UV (or ozone, for that matter). The forumulations used in some of the plastics are simply unstable. Most notably, I had an old Apple color monitor stored in a black plastic wrap. When I went to retrieve it, I found that several bits and pieces had spontaneously detached themselves from the unit--the plastic was so brittle you could break it right off with a minimum of force. --Chuck From mardy at voysys.com Mon Sep 20 14:07:08 2010 From: mardy at voysys.com (Marden P. Marshall) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 15:07:08 -0400 Subject: How to prevent yellowing of equipment on display In-Reply-To: <4C974B6C.6404.9DE004@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B76AEEC-7AB2-4074-ABD8-3B2A817EC805@voysys.com>, <4C974174.8416.76EE2A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C974B6C.6404.9DE004@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <04868CE0-26CF-4327-BD93-BED141E6AB88@voysys.com> On Sep 20, 2010, at 2:54 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 20 Sep 2010 at 14:31, Michael Kerpan wrote: > >> Frankly, that seems a bit much. Given that there are ways to reverse >> that yellowing if it occurs (google "retrobrite" for more info), I'd >> say that simply limiting exposure to UV is an adequate measure. If >> things happen anyway, at least you'll know it can be fixed. > > There are a number of articles that have been published by > conservators for museums that limiting UV exposure doesn't prevent > the degradation of plastics. > > Indeed, it's a big headache now for museums and no one's come up with > any satisfactory answer to the problem. Cold storage at least slows > the process. > > I've had gear packed away (in the dark) for 20 years that was in good > shape cosmetically but now is yellowed. At no time did the stuff get > any appreciable exposure to UV (or ozone, for that matter). The > forumulations used in some of the plastics are simply unstable. > > Most notably, I had an old Apple color monitor stored in a black > plastic wrap. When I went to retrieve it, I found that several bits > and pieces had spontaneously detached themselves from the unit--the > plastic was so brittle you could break it right off with a minimum of > force. > > --Chuck > So it sounds like much of the vintage equipment that this community has been rescuing from the landfills will ultimately turn into dust, in spite of our best efforts. And I thought that capacitors going bad was a pain... -Mardy From mardy at voysys.com Mon Sep 20 14:17:05 2010 From: mardy at voysys.com (Marden P. Marshall) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 15:17:05 -0400 Subject: Apple II Killer App Message-ID: <3C7F5F6B-F013-4E0E-862E-36A395F1EF6E@voysys.com> So now that I know that my recently restored Apple II is going to turn into dust in the not too distant future, how can It best be demonstrated to illustrate why it was so awesome back in '78? For example, with an Altair, you can either load Billy's Micro Soft Basic or play "Fool on the Hill" through your AM radio. But what application do you run on an Apple II that epitomizes Steve and The Woz's gift to man kind? -Mardy From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 20 14:32:06 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 12:32:06 -0700 Subject: How to prevent yellowing of equipment on display In-Reply-To: <04868CE0-26CF-4327-BD93-BED141E6AB88@voysys.com> References: <4B76AEEC-7AB2-4074-ABD8-3B2A817EC805@voysys.com>, <4C974B6C.6404.9DE004@cclist.sydex.com>, <04868CE0-26CF-4327-BD93-BED141E6AB88@voysys.com> Message-ID: <4C975446.1458.C0728A@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Sep 2010 at 15:07, Marden P. Marshall wrote: > So it sounds like much of the vintage equipment that this community > has been rescuing from the landfills will ultimately turn into dust, > in spite of our best efforts. And I thought that capacitors going bad > was a pain... Cue Shel Silverstein "Pastic"... Here's an interesting page about plastic conservation: http://www.conservationregister.com/careplastics.asp?id=4 Also, check around for publications by the French POPART conservation effort. It'll all end up in the Pacific Gyre, I'm afraid. Centuries from now, people will wonder how we lived. I seem to be seeing the same thing happening with internet content. Things I've bookmarked a decade or more ago can't be found in any form online (not even in archive.org). Good thing that I saved some of it. --Chuck From evan at snarc.net Mon Sep 20 14:32:37 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 15:32:37 -0400 Subject: Apple II Killer App In-Reply-To: <3C7F5F6B-F013-4E0E-862E-36A395F1EF6E@voysys.com> References: <3C7F5F6B-F013-4E0E-862E-36A395F1EF6E@voysys.com> Message-ID: <4C97B6D5.4060908@snarc.net> > So now that I know that my recently restored Apple II is going to turn into dust in the not too distant future, how can It best be demonstrated to illustrate why it was so awesome back in '78? For example, with an Altair, you can either load Billy's Micro Soft Basic or play "Fool on the Hill" through your AM radio. But what application do you run on an Apple II that epitomizes Steve and The Woz's gift to man kind? Visicalc. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 20 14:51:44 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 12:51:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple II Killer App In-Reply-To: <3C7F5F6B-F013-4E0E-862E-36A395F1EF6E@voysys.com> References: <3C7F5F6B-F013-4E0E-862E-36A395F1EF6E@voysys.com> Message-ID: <20100920125051.I7054@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 20 Sep 2010, Marden P. Marshall wrote: > So now that I know that my recently restored Apple II is going to turn > into dust in the not too distant future, how can It best be demonstrated > to illustrate why it was so awesome back in '78? For example, with an > Altair, you can either load Billy's Micro Soft Basic or play "Fool on > the Hill" through your AM radio. But what application do you run on an > Apple II that epitomizes Steve and The Woz's gift to man kind? VisiCalc Flight Simulator From ragooman at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 14:52:31 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 15:52:31 -0400 Subject: Apple II Killer App In-Reply-To: <4C97B6D5.4060908@snarc.net> References: <3C7F5F6B-F013-4E0E-862E-36A395F1EF6E@voysys.com> <4C97B6D5.4060908@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 3:32 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > So now that I know that my recently restored Apple II is going to turn >> into dust in the not too distant future, how can It best be demonstrated to >> illustrate why it was so awesome back in '78? For example, with an Altair, >> you can either load Billy's Micro Soft Basic or play "Fool on the Hill" >> through your AM radio. But what application do you run on an Apple II that >> epitomizes Steve and The Woz's gift to man kind? >> > > Visicalc. > Apple II Software Hits - sorted by year http://apple2history.org/appendix/aha/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 15:00:58 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 16:00:58 -0400 Subject: Apple II Killer App In-Reply-To: <20100920125051.I7054@shell.lmi.net> References: <3C7F5F6B-F013-4E0E-862E-36A395F1EF6E@voysys.com> <20100920125051.I7054@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > On Mon, 20 Sep 2010, Marden P. Marshall wrote: >> But what application do you run on an >> Apple II that epitomizes Steve and The Woz's gift to man kind? If you were the right age to be in school when they were full of Apple IIs, "Oregon Trail" was a big deal. I was not, but folks I know who are now about 30-35 were. -ethan From ragooman at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 15:03:41 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 16:03:41 -0400 Subject: How to prevent yellowing of equipment on display In-Reply-To: <4C975446.1458.C0728A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B76AEEC-7AB2-4074-ABD8-3B2A817EC805@voysys.com> <4C974B6C.6404.9DE004@cclist.sydex.com> <04868CE0-26CF-4327-BD93-BED141E6AB88@voysys.com> <4C975446.1458.C0728A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 3:32 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I seem to be seeing the same thing happening with internet content. > Things I've bookmarked a decade or more ago can't be found in any > form online (not even in archive.org). Good thing that I saved some > of it. > > --Chuck > > Chuck, I'm still looking for the plans to that super-electromagnet stargate traveling time machine that was online about '93 - if it's in your archive. =Dan From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Sep 20 15:07:38 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 13:07:38 -0700 Subject: 6502 simulated at transistor level - right in your browser (JavaScript) In-Reply-To: References: <4C94FBA3.3020504@brouhaha.com> <4C96955B.3040101@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C97BF0A.6070503@brouhaha.com> Martin Goldberg wrote: > IE8, Windows XP There's the problem. The web site specifically says that IE will not work, because it doesn't have any HTML5 support. From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Sep 20 15:13:36 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 16:13:36 -0400 Subject: 6502 simulated at transistor level - right in your browser (JavaScript) In-Reply-To: <4C94FBA3.3020504@brouhaha.com> References: <4C94FBA3.3020504@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C97C070.8040904@verizon.net> On 9/18/2010 1:49 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > http://www.visual6502.org/JSSim/ > > Eric, Thanks for posting the link. Very cool and these guys are doing great work. Keith From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Sep 20 15:14:40 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 13:14:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple II Killer App In-Reply-To: References: <3C7F5F6B-F013-4E0E-862E-36A395F1EF6E@voysys.com> <20100920125051.I7054@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Sep 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On Mon, 20 Sep 2010, Marden P. Marshall wrote: >>> But what application do you run on an >>> Apple II that epitomizes Steve and The Woz's gift to man kind? > > If you were the right age to be in school when they were full of Apple > IIs, "Oregon Trail" was a big deal. I was not, but folks I know who > are now about 30-35 were. Type "BANG" -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From evan at snarc.net Mon Sep 20 15:17:35 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 16:17:35 -0400 Subject: Apple II Killer App In-Reply-To: References: <3C7F5F6B-F013-4E0E-862E-36A395F1EF6E@voysys.com> <20100920125051.I7054@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C97C15F.1010103@snarc.net> > If you were the right age to be in school when they were full of Apple > IIs, "Oregon Trail" was a big deal. I was not, but folks I know who are now about 30-35 were. It's weird: I am 35, and our school was all-Apple II, but we didn't have that game. Actually we didn't have any games. We learned AppleWorks, PrintShop, and BASIC. All the game-playing was done at home. FlightSim, the Epyx olympic series, H2G2, games we wrote ourselves in BASIC, Pole Position, etc. ..... although I was addicted to a sword-fighting game called Swashbuckler. Anyone remember that? From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Sep 20 15:24:07 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 21:24:07 +0100 Subject: Mouse and Keyboard Cable for DECstation 5000/240 Message-ID: <006a01cb5901$c8796770$596c3650$@ntlworld.com> I am looking for the special cable that connects mouse and keyboard to a DECstation 5000-240. Unfortunately I don't even know a part number. Can anyone tell me what part number to look for? Better still, anyone have one going spare? Regards Rob From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 15:25:23 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 15:25:23 -0500 Subject: Apple II Killer App In-Reply-To: References: <3C7F5F6B-F013-4E0E-862E-36A395F1EF6E@voysys.com> <20100920125051.I7054@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 3:00 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > If you were the right age to be in school when they were full of Apple > IIs, "Oregon Trail" was a big deal. ?I was not, but folks I know who > are now about 30-35 were. Oregon Trail and Odell Lake are synonymous with my grade-school Apple // experience. However those were available on other platforms as well (OT came with my 64C.) From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 20 15:32:25 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 13:32:25 -0700 Subject: How to prevent yellowing of equipment on display In-Reply-To: References: <4B76AEEC-7AB2-4074-ABD8-3B2A817EC805@voysys.com>, <4C975446.1458.C0728A@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4C976269.18639.F7A9CB@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Sep 2010 at 16:03, Dan Roganti wrote: > I'm still looking for the plans to that super-electromagnet stargate > traveling time machine that was online about '93 - if it's in your > archive. Not mine, but I heard that they'd dropped it because of unavailability of flux capacitors and ZPMs. --Chuck From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Mon Sep 20 15:35:06 2010 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 13:35:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple II Killer App In-Reply-To: <4C97C15F.1010103@snarc.net> References: <3C7F5F6B-F013-4E0E-862E-36A395F1EF6E@voysys.com> <20100920125051.I7054@shell.lmi.net> <4C97C15F.1010103@snarc.net> Message-ID: <964192.30643.qm@web81002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Ah Swashbuckler was great! I remember that one well. But I spent hours and hours playing Loadrunner. David Williams ----- Original Message ---- From: Evan Koblentz To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Mon, September 20, 2010 3:17:35 PM Subject: Re: Apple II Killer App > If you were the right age to be in school when they were full of Apple > IIs, "Oregon Trail" was a big deal. I was not, but folks I know who are now >about 30-35 were. It's weird: I am 35, and our school was all-Apple II, but we didn't have that game. Actually we didn't have any games. We learned AppleWorks, PrintShop, and BASIC. All the game-playing was done at home. FlightSim, the Epyx olympic series, H2G2, games we wrote ourselves in BASIC, Pole Position, etc. ..... although I was addicted to a sword-fighting game called Swashbuckler. Anyone remember that? From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 20 15:58:33 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 13:58:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to prevent yellowing of equipment on display In-Reply-To: References: <4B76AEEC-7AB2-4074-ABD8-3B2A817EC805@voysys.com> <4C974B6C.6404.9DE004@cclist.sydex.com> <04868CE0-26CF-4327-BD93-BED141E6AB88@voysys.com> <4C975446.1458.C0728A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100920135708.H13041@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 20 Sep 2010, Dan Roganti wrote: > I'm still looking for the plans to that super-electromagnet stargate > traveling time machine that was online about '93 - if it's in your archive. Well, if you ever find the plans, you can go back to '93 and make sure that they remail available. Hmmm. It seems that you haven't done so, and therefore never will. :-( -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 20 14:46:22 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 20:46:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: GNT 3601 tape punch docs? In-Reply-To: <4C93D08C.8040107@gmail.com> from "Kheireddine Saidi" at Sep 17, 10 09:33:16 pm Message-ID: > > Hi, > > No, nothing happens. What power supply do you mean? the one of the=20 > puncher, yes i think it's ok, cuz as I push one of the buttons of the=20 Yes, the PSU inside the punch. Many of use have discovered the hard way that elecrronic stuff doesn't work unless it's getting the right power, and that PSU problems are common (I am one of the ones who has spent a long time tracking down nasty faults before realising the PSU is not doing what it should be...) > puncher (the tiny holes puncher and the all holes puncher) it does what=20 > it's intended to do. That sounds as though it's working properly, though. > > Well, i tried multiple setups, i don't really remember what i did try.=20 > About the null modem cable, I wired as follows: > > 20 DTR - 6 DSR (puncher - puncher) > 3 RD (puncher) - 3 TD (PC) > 7 Gnd - 5 Gnd > 4 DTR - 6 DSR (PC - PC) > > Note that I didn't try the TX from puncher side, cuz I think it's not=20 > returning useful data. > > Right now, i hooked a led and a resistor to the TX of the PC, I see it=20 > flashing as i send some data, then I'll assume the PC is correctly sendin= > g. Sounds OK. > > Something comes to my mind, I remember from the days that I programmed=20 > PIC MCUs that the serial port of a laptop operates at low voltages, 3V I=20 Any port that claims to be RS232 compatable should send <-3V for one state and >+3V for the other. Most desktop machines swing between =112V and +12V, I am told some laptops have a much smaller swing than this (but my _ancient_ laptops generally use -12V and +12V). But anyway.... > think. Can it be the problem here? But according to the specifications=20 > of the manufacturer, the puncher deals with 3V communication. Most RS232 devices of that sort of vintage use a 1489 receiver (or a 75189 which is much the same thing). This chip will take -ve input voltage sithoug damage, but it has a single threshold of IIRC, a little over 1V. That is, a swing from 0V to 3V would be OK. So wouid -3V to +3V, Or -12V to +12V. I shouldn't say this, but you can feed a TTL level signal into such a receiver chip and expect it to work. I've done this a few times fro testing, I would enver do it on a deviec that was to be used by someone else. What I would do next is a little conection-tracing inside the punch. Where does the RxD (data input pin (3?) on the DB25 connector) go? Can you trace it to an RS232 receiver chip like a 1489? If you have a logic probe or 'scope, does the output of the appropriate section of this receiver change state when you send data to the punch? Is ther a recognisable serial chip? Either a 'dumb' 40 pin UART, like a 6402 or a microprocessor bus chip (6850, 6551, Z80-SIO, 8250, 8251, etc). If you can find one, is the serial input (receiver input, whatever) pin of that changing state when you send data from the PC? If not, what is between the line receiver and the serial chip? Maybe some jumpers to select a currnet loop interface (as others have suggested). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 20 14:48:49 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 20:48:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Almost free: various DEC, HP, Fluke, Wyse items, In-Reply-To: <075301cb582d$3856db20$0600000a@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Sep 19, 10 04:00:20 pm Message-ID: > > > 2. Fluke 8520A/AS-1 rackmount digital multimeter with GPIB. Perfect > > cosmetic and functional condition. > > I'd cry for it... As would I... Why can't these things ever be near me?... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 20 15:24:30 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 21:24:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: WTD: Clarion/JPI TopSpeed C (for Psion SIBO SDK) In-Reply-To: <4C968110.10304@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Sep 19, 10 10:30:56 pm Message-ID: > That and the CCTV cameras makes this a pretty fun day. Always wanted to > have a play with machine vision, now I have some cameras and just need a > few C or CS-mount lenses... (seriously, half a dozen cameras at 50p > each, there was no reason *not* to take the whole box). That remoinds me... Some time back I bought a Sony portable video recorder and camera. No, I don't mean a camcorder, this is 2 separate units powered by a lead-acid battery pack. It's not a VCR either, it uses reels of tape. Oh, it's monochrome only (EIAJ format on the tape, thankfully). Anyway, I didn't pay much for it. Only later when I took the bits out of the cardboard box did I find a couple of C-mount lenses in the bottom. Kern-Paillard Switar lenses.... :-) The only problem was, I didn't have an C mount lens caps. And they seem to be very hard to get. In the end, I bought some brass rod and cut the theads msyelf (32tpi is trivial to cut on a lathe with an 8 tpi leadscrew :-)). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 20 15:27:42 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 21:27:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <20100920011407.GC21591@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Sep 19, 10 08:14:07 pm Message-ID: > > ah, that was me. > > Was a great time and really a blast to dig into the Alto. We definitely > improvised, not having a stock of uA709 opamp on hand... we just bypassed > that regulator circuit and stuck a 7805 there instead, which was pilfered > from Vince Briel's spare parts stock for his Altair8800micro kits. > Too much fun. I think if i has a machine as rare as an Alto, I would try to keep the circuitry as original as posisble. In other words, I'd not bung in a 3 terminal regulator hore. The 709, IIRC, uses external compensation, while most more modern op-amps don't. But that shou;ldn't be much of a problem for a PSU regulator circuit. I would try to fidnm an op-amp that owuld work here (even you can't stil lget a 709 anywhere...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 20 15:37:19 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 21:37:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: How to prevent yellowing of equipment on display In-Reply-To: from "Michael Kerpan" at Sep 20, 10 02:31:10 pm Message-ID: > Frankly, that seems a bit much. Given that there are ways to reverse > that yellowing if it occurs (google "retrobrite" for more info), I'd > say that simply limiting exposure to UV is an adequate measure. If > things happen anyway, at least you'll know it can be fixed. Does the chemical change that causes the yellowing have any other effect? (e.g. does it make the plastic weaker or more brittle?). If so, can _those_ effects be reversed? To be honest, I am not over-worried about the colour of things like Vt100s, but I'd rather they didn;t start falling apart... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 20 16:01:40 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 22:01:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Multimeter recomendations Message-ID: As all of us who do hardware repairs know, a multimeter is an essential piece of test equipment. Until a couple of days ago, I used a Fluke 85 (original series). It did what I wanted, there were 2 parts of the design I didn't like, but apart from that it was great The 2 thing I didn't like were 1) You have ot dispmantle the meter to change the battery, and it's assembeled with self-tapping screws going into the plastic case. I don't know how many insertions they will stand. 2) The most switch used resistive traces on the PCB with a wiping contact to connect them to an analogue input on the main chip. If that wiper didn't make contact properly, it sometimes got into the wrong mode. It owuld even sometimes power itself up (and flatten the battery) when in the off poosition. Anyway, I was using this iustrument on Saturday (actualy for testing the PSU, etc, in an HP2623 graphics terminal) with no problems. I put it away in my tool drawer. On Sunday I got it out for some other tests and discovered the display had failed. It's totally black for half the height, I asusem the liquid crystal material has leaked out (although the glass is not obviously cracked or broken). AFAIK nothing fell on it in the tool drawer (there are no really heavy tools in there anyway), it wasn't dropped, etc. Just one of those things. Alas Fluke say they can no longer supply the display for this insturment as a spare part. Given that I need the standard functions only (including a good continuity tester!), don't need excessive accuracy, and would like to be able to fix it if anything goes wrong, does anyone have any recomendatins? I am not conviced I should buy another Fluke, BTW. Long shot : Does anyone have a defective original-series Fluke 80 with a good display (maybe the ASIC has died or something). I would be interested in buying it. -tony From legalize at xmission.com Mon Sep 20 16:06:54 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 15:06:54 -0600 Subject: How to prevent yellowing of equipment on display In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 20 Sep 2010 12:32:06 -0700. <4C975446.1458.C0728A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4C975446.1458.C0728A at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > Here's an interesting page about plastic conservation: > > http://www.conservationregister.com/careplastics.asp?id=4 It basically says: "contact a conservator". Not very helpful or interesting IMO. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 20 16:08:57 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 14:08:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to prevent yellowing of equipment on display In-Reply-To: <4C976269.18639.F7A9CB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B76AEEC-7AB2-4074-ABD8-3B2A817EC805@voysys.com>, <4C975446.1458.C0728A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C976269.18639.F7A9CB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100920140540.H13041@shell.lmi.net> > On 20 Sep 2010 at 16:03, Dan Roganti wrote: > > I'm still looking for the plans to that super-electromagnet stargate > > traveling time machine that was online about '93 - if it's in your > > archive. On Mon, 20 Sep 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Not mine, but I heard that they'd dropped it because of > unavailability of flux capacitors and ZPMs. Alas, Jeri Ellsworth, the only person that I know that has any real chance of making a homemade flux capacitor, is too young to have an obsession with trying to go back top the '60s. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ragooman at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 16:09:11 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (ragooman at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 14:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to prevent yellowing of equipment on display Message-ID: <4c97cd77.24978e0a.3e34.7301@mx.google.com> Well, if you ever find the plans, you can go back to '93 and make sure that they remail available. Hmmm. It seems that you haven't done so, and therefore never will. :-( there still might be one in a parallel universe :) From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 20 16:15:40 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 14:15:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WTD: Clarion/JPI TopSpeed C (for Psion SIBO SDK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100920141110.D13041@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 20 Sep 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > The only problem was, I didn't have an C mount lens caps. And they seem > to be very hard to get. In the end, I bought some brass rod and cut the > theads msyelf (32tpi is trivial to cut on a lathe with an 8 tpi leadscrew > :-)). If you are looking for C-mount rear lens caps, they are, indeed hard to find. BUT, eBay has a lot of cheap 5mm C-mount extension tubes ("C-mount to CS-mount adapter") Put a 1" diameter thin disk (such as, or thinner than, a USA quarter) into one of the extension tubes, and you have a C-mount rear lens cap, or C-mount body cap From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 20 16:18:56 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 14:18:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100920141820.C13041@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 20 Sep 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > 1) You have ot dispmantle the meter to change the battery, and it's > assembeled with self-tapping screws going into the plastic case. I don't > know how many insertions they will stand. Can you drill them out, and install threaded inserts, to then use machine screws? From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 20 16:21:25 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 14:21:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to prevent yellowing of equipment on display In-Reply-To: <4c97cd77.24978e0a.3e34.7301@mx.google.com> References: <4c97cd77.24978e0a.3e34.7301@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <20100920142009.V13041@shell.lmi.net> > Well, if you ever find the plans, you can go back to '93 and make sure > that they remail available. > Hmmm. It seems that you haven't done so, and therefore never will. :-( On Mon, 20 Sep 2010, ragooman at gmail.com wrote: > there still might be one in a parallel universe :) When I try to contact myself in that universe, I find that that me went back to the 1960s, and did not leave a forwarding address. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Sep 20 16:22:18 2010 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 14:22:18 -0700 Subject: 6502 simulated at transistor level - right in your browser (JavaScript) In-Reply-To: <4C94FBA3.3020504@brouhaha.com> References: <4C94FBA3.3020504@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <201009201422.43797.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Saturday 18 September 2010, Eric Smith wrote: > http://www.visual6502.org/JSSim/ > For those (poor souls) who are using IE - you might want to use Google's Chrome browser instead. It does HTML5 (and the site Eric mentions above) just fine. Chrome is available for Windows, Mac OS X and Linux... As I write I'm using Chrome on Linux view the "Visual 6502"... Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley, AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Sep 20 16:22:20 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 17:22:20 -0400 Subject: Flux caps (was:How to prevent yellowing of equipment on display) References: Message-ID: <14E43974CC43430D9F034D8AE7C7476E@vl420mt> > Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 13:32:25 -0700 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: Re: How to prevent yellowing of equipment on display > On 20 Sep 2010 at 16:03, Dan Roganti wrote: > >> I'm still looking for the plans to that super-electromagnet stargate >> traveling time machine that was online about '93 - if it's in your >> archive. > > Not mine, but I heard that they'd dropped it because of > unavailability of flux capacitors and ZPMs. > > --Chuck --------------- Flux capacitors are no problem: http://www.thinkgeek.com/geektoys/plush/9fc6/ Alas, temporarily out of stock, so you might have to DIY: http://www.instructables.com/id/Flux-Capacitor/ mike From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 16:38:56 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 16:38:56 -0500 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C97D470.5000401@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: > 1) You have ot dispmantle the meter to change the battery, and it's > assembeled with self-tapping screws going into the plastic case. I don't > know how many insertions they will stand. *if* you could fix yours, can you modify the case to make some form of hinged / clip-on battery compartment so that ceases to be an issue? It probably doesn't even have to be pretty, so long as it's functional. > 2) The most switch used resistive traces on the PCB with a wiping contact > to connect them to an analogue input on the main chip. If that wiper > didn't make contact properly, it sometimes got into the wrong mode. It > owuld even sometimes power itself up (and flatten the battery) when in > the off poosition. Can that be solved too, via a different switch and flying leads (I suspect there's not the clearance, though, or the switch wiring is something unusual?) Personally, if I've got a tool or bit of equipment that I like, I'll do whatever I can to keep it going - and so long as it's not something rare, I don't mind making a few alterations to the original design to make it suit *my* needs better. I expect you can understand that! Regarding the LCD, maybe it's a driver issue rather than the LCD itself? How do signals get from the PCB to the LCD - some form of ribbon cable, conductive rubber strips, or something else? Maybe dirt's got in there or something? cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 20 16:44:29 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 14:44:29 -0700 Subject: How to prevent yellowing of equipment on display In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <4C97734D.14609.139A526@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Sep 2010 at 15:06, Richard wrote: > It basically says: "contact a conservator". Not very helpful or > interesting IMO. What I gather from my reading is that no one's got any good procedures yet, other than low-temperature storage. Basically, plastics are inherently unstable and keeping them around for future generations is going to be a tough nut to crack. POPART has perhaps the best-funded conservation research project on plastics, so it's a site to watch for news. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 20 17:00:29 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 15:00:29 -0700 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <20100920141820.C13041@shell.lmi.net> References: , <20100920141820.C13041@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C97770D.9423.1484D97@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Sep 2010 at 14:18, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 20 Sep 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > 1) You have ot dispmantle the meter to change the battery, and it's > > assembeled with self-tapping screws going into the plastic case. I > > don't know how many insertions they will stand. > > Can you drill them out, and install threaded inserts, to then use > machine screws? I wonder if you could ask that crazy Aussie over at http://www.eevblog.com/2010/03/07/eevblog-66-death-destruction-of-a- fluke-multimeter/ who likes destroying DMMs if he's got any extra parts? --Chuck (WARNING: It's a video clip) From kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com Mon Sep 20 17:05:27 2010 From: kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com (Keven Miller) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 16:05:27 -0600 Subject: Apple II Killer App References: <3C7F5F6B-F013-4E0E-862E-36A395F1EF6E@voysys.com> <20100920125051.I7054@shell.lmi.net> <4C97C15F.1010103@snarc.net> Message-ID: <2E0358946B8340479BF92358A7444420@RANGER1> Maybe not the best for graphics abilities, But I enjoyed ChopLifter and LodeRunner. Graphics and sound. Keven From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Sep 20 17:15:30 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 18:15:30 -0400 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <4a1fc98c909ce04df6e5c6935681bda8@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4C961C1A.1070600@comcast.net> <20100920011407.GC21591@n0jcf.net> <4a1fc98c909ce04df6e5c6935681bda8@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4C97DD02.2010107@neurotica.com> On 9/20/10 2:49 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> Was a great time and really a blast to dig into the Alto. We definitely >> improvised, not having a stock of uA709 opamp on hand... we just bypassed >> that regulator circuit and stuck a 7805 there instead, which was pilfered >> from Vince Briel's spare parts stock for his Altair8800micro kits. >> Too much fun. > > If the 709 was a TO-99 (can) package and you need to replace it, I have > lots of 741's in TO-99. > > Just mentioning it in case it is difficult to find a 709 in TO-99. (DIP > should be easy to find something to substitute.) TO-99 709s are difficult to find, but not impossible. For most applications I believe a 741 can be used as a drop-in replacement for a 709; this being a voltage regulator I'd guess it probably isn't all that demanding on the 709's particular specifications. It wouldn't be 100% historically correct, but if you think about it, that would likely have been a reasonable repair method during this machine's service lifetime. I'd say do it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ss at allegro.com Mon Sep 20 17:20:20 2010 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 15:20:20 -0700 Subject: Free?: Toshiba Libretto 100CT and Apple Powerbook 160 In-Reply-To: <3C7F5F6B-F013-4E0E-862E-36A395F1EF6E@voysys.com> References: <3C7F5F6B-F013-4E0E-862E-36A395F1EF6E@voysys.com> Message-ID: Hi, If anyone's interested, a friend is looking for a home for a Toshiba Libretto 100CT and an Apple Powerbook 160 (presumably free). The computers are in the S.F. Bay Area. (Both are over 10 years old :) I'll send the name and email contact info to the first responder who wants them ... but I'm otherwise staying out of the loop :) thanks, Stan Sieler sieler at allegro.com From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Sep 20 17:37:24 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 15:37:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple II Killer App In-Reply-To: from Jason T at "Sep 20, 10 03:25:23 pm" Message-ID: <201009202237.o8KMbOEX014792@floodgap.com> > > If you were the right age to be in school when they were full of Apple > > IIs, "Oregon Trail" was a big deal. _I was not, but folks I know who > > are now about 30-35 were. > > Oregon Trail and Odell Lake are synonymous with my grade-school Apple > // experience. However those were available on other platforms as > well (OT came with my 64C.) The Odell Lake port to the C64 was particularly compelling. Some nice sprite art. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- SOFTWARE -- formal evening attire for female computer analysts. ------------ From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Sep 20 18:06:36 2010 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 19:06:36 -0400 Subject: Apple II Killer App Message-ID: In the time-wasting sense: The Integer Basic games that came on cassette and had an Apple I heritage, ESPECIALLY Apple Trek but to a lesser extent Breakout and Pong too Beagle Bag, or Applesoft Basic and any Beagle Bros catalog, or just a Peeks and Pokes chart. Lemonade Sabotage None are killer apps But all are excellent fun Tim. From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 18:13:17 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 19:13:17 -0400 Subject: How to prevent yellowing of equipment on display In-Reply-To: <20100920142009.V13041@shell.lmi.net> References: <4c97cd77.24978e0a.3e34.7301@mx.google.com> <20100920142009.V13041@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C97EA8D.3090203@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >> there still might be one in a parallel universe :) > > When I try to contact myself in that universe, I find that that me went > back to the 1960s, and did not leave a forwarding address. In any case, it's usually easier to contact one's self in a *perpendicular* universe. Peace... Sridhar From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Sep 20 18:18:17 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 16:18:17 -0700 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk ---snip--- > > 1) You have ot dispmantle the meter to change the battery, and it's > assembeled with self-tapping screws going into the plastic case. I don't > know how many insertions they will stand. > ---snip--- Ahh Something I know that Tony doesn't. I work with a lot of things that are wood and have screws that, if screwed in and out too many times, will end up with holes that don't hold the screws any more. Similar problem to the plastic and self tapping screws. I was shown a trick by an old wood worker years ago to keep from cutting new threads. You place the screw into the hole and while holding light pressure, rotate it backwards with the screw driver. At one point in rotation, it will kind of pop down. I don't know how else to describe this but it is a feel thing. Then, screw the screw in. It will now follow the old threads. On the plastic with thread cutting screws, use very light touch and carefully screw in. It will bind if not aligned well. Of course, if the hole has already been abused many times, this doesn't work as well. Dwight From ss at allegro.com Mon Sep 20 18:30:04 2010 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 16:30:04 -0700 Subject: Free?: Toshiba Libretto 100CT and Apple Powerbook 160 In-Reply-To: References: <3C7F5F6B-F013-4E0E-862E-36A395F1EF6E@voysys.com> Message-ID: I've received two "yes" responses, so please consider it claimed. thanks! On Sep 20, 2010, at 3:20 PM, Stan Sieler wrote: > Hi, > > If anyone's interested, a friend is looking for a home for a Toshiba Libretto 100CT and an Apple Powerbook 160 > (presumably free). The computers are in the S.F. Bay Area. (Both are over 10 years old :) > > I'll send the name and email contact info to the first responder who wants them ... but I'm otherwise staying out of the loop :) > > thanks, > > Stan Sieler > sieler at allegro.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 20 18:34:57 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 16:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to prevent yellowing of equipment on display In-Reply-To: <4C975446.1458.C0728A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B76AEEC-7AB2-4074-ABD8-3B2A817EC805@voysys.com>, <4C974B6C.6404.9DE004@cclist.sydex.com>, <04868CE0-26CF-4327-BD93-BED141E6AB88@voysys.com> <4C975446.1458.C0728A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100920163404.U14879@shell.lmi.net> "Retro-brite" will not completely stop or reverse entropy. For that, you need Ubik. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 20 19:00:15 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 17:00:15 -0700 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4C97931F.28901.1B5F30D@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Sep 2010 at 16:18, dwight elvey wrote: > Then, screw the screw in. It will now follow the old threads. > On the plastic with thread cutting screws, use very light > touch and carefully screw in. It will bind if not aligned well. > Of course, if the hole has already been abused many times, > this doesn't work as well. I've usually thrown in the towel and just grabbed some apropriately- sized ABS stock and the methylene chloride. Apply solvent, tap it into the old hole and let set. Drill for new holes. Good as new. You can get ABS rod stock in very small diameters (3 mm) as "ABS welding rod". --Chuck From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Sep 20 19:02:21 2010 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 20:02:21 -0400 Subject: Multimeter recomendations Message-ID: Personally I enjoy a big Simpson 260-dash-whatever. The Triplett 630 is in the same league. Both have been in production (in one variant or another) since before WWII. The RCA Senior Voltohmysts I love for their fashion sense but unless I need VTVM class input impedances, I'd prefer the Simpson or Triplett. In terms of used Flukes, I highly recommend any used 77-series unit. You can critique the designs because of what you saw as failings of your Fluke 85, but believe me, the LCD display on any Fluke LCD DMM will be far more durable than the faceplate on my Simpson 260 or Triplett 630. At the very low end, in the $3 to $5 range there are "disposable" DMM's available at discount stores here in the US. They are not a joy to use but they do mostly work. Tim. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Sep 20 19:07:06 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 17:07:06 -0700 Subject: How to prevent yellowing of equipment on display In-Reply-To: <20100920163404.U14879@shell.lmi.net> References: <4B76AEEC-7AB2-4074-ABD8-3B2A817EC805@voysys.com>, <4C974B6C.6404.9DE004@cclist.sydex.com>, <04868CE0-26CF-4327-BD93-BED141E6AB88@voysys.com> <4C975446.1458.C0728A@cclist.sydex.com> <20100920163404.U14879@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C97F72A.9070108@brouhaha.com> On 09/20/2010 04:34 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > "Retro-brite" will not completely stop or reverse entropy. > For that, you need Ubik. Caution: do not exceed recommended dosage. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Sep 20 19:56:20 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 01:56:20 +0100 Subject: DiscFerret -- PCBs have arrived Message-ID: <4C9802B4.3040108@philpem.me.uk> ... Well, actually, they arrived at the beginning of last week and I didn't finish checking them against the netlist until today. My excuse is that my notes are all on Cougar (my laptop), which is currently refusing to boot without segfaulting in the kernel. Rather than deal with ASUS support, I replaced it -- the replacement (an MSI U230 named Ryoko) is far better behaved :) Scanned images: Top: http://www.discferret.com/images/discferret-pcb-top.jpg Bottom: http://www.discferret.com/images/discferret-pcb-bot.jpg They seem to have come out OK. The solder mask is a little discoloured around some of the thinner tracks, but that's a cosmetic issue. It still resists solder, thus it's OK :) For the pathologically curious: Substrate -- FR4 fiberglass, 1.6mm Track layers -- two copper, 1oz Layer stacking -- BOTTOM COPPER, FR4, TOP COPPER, TOP OVERLAY Surface finish -- looks like lead-free HASL or roller-tin. It's certainly not immersion tin or silver, the pads have roller marks on them. It turns out I hammed the entry of the order, and managed to order two sets of three boards, leaving me with six PCBs in total, and an additional 130 Euro bill. Ick. I'm still short of some parts (notably: the USB ESD suppressor chip, some pin headers, 7-pin SIL resistor packs and 10nF 0603 decoupling capacitors). A trip to the Farnell trade counter is being meticulously planned, as long as I can get someone to hang around the house and wait for my Rapid order to arrive (mouse microswitches... Logitech should be shot for using those nasty Omron things). Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Mon Sep 20 20:06:13 2010 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 17:06:13 -0800 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <6FD43BE0FFE.000007EFn0body.h0me@inbox.com> In my book, if you're looking for accuracy and sheer reliability, I'd look for a good used Fluke 8020A,B, or an 8021,8022,or 8024B. The 8024A also exists, but that model had some reliability issues until they re-laid the switchboard in the 'B' model. They don't have all of the fancy bells and whistles of later models, but they JUST WORK. The only issue of course, is finding one with a decent LCD; most of the ones offered on the net are shot. I got lucky-- I found an 8020B in a thrift store with a bad display for $5. I replaced the LCD with a spare that I had, and I've had a reliable meter ever since. You'll have to hunt, but it's worth it. > -----Original Message----- > From: tshoppa at wmata.com > Sent: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 20:02:21 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Multimeter recomendations > > Personally I enjoy a big Simpson 260-dash-whatever. > > The Triplett 630 is in the same league. > > Both have been in production (in one variant or another) since before > WWII. > > The RCA Senior Voltohmysts I love for their fashion sense but unless I > need VTVM class input impedances, I'd prefer the Simpson or Triplett. > > In terms of used Flukes, I highly recommend any used 77-series unit. You > can critique the designs because of what you saw as failings of your > Fluke 85, but believe me, the LCD display on any Fluke LCD DMM will be > far more durable than the faceplate on my Simpson 260 or Triplett 630. > > At the very low end, in the $3 to $5 range there are "disposable" DMM's > available at discount stores here in the US. They are not a joy to use > but they do mostly work. > > Tim. ____________________________________________________________ Send any screenshot to your friends in seconds... Works in all emails, instant messengers, blogs, forums and social networks. TRY IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if2 for FREE From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Sep 20 20:07:39 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 18:07:39 -0700 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <4C97DD02.2010107@neurotica.com> References: <4C961C1A.1070600@comcast.net> <20100920011407.GC21591@n0jcf.net> <4a1fc98c909ce04df6e5c6935681bda8@cs.ubc.ca> <4C97DD02.2010107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 2010 Sep 20, at 3:15 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 9/20/10 2:49 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>> Was a great time and really a blast to dig into the Alto. We >>> definitely >>> improvised, not having a stock of uA709 opamp on hand... we just >>> bypassed >>> that regulator circuit and stuck a 7805 there instead, which was >>> pilfered >>> from Vince Briel's spare parts stock for his Altair8800micro kits. >>> Too much fun. >> >> If the 709 was a TO-99 (can) package and you need to replace it, I >> have >> lots of 741's in TO-99. >> >> Just mentioning it in case it is difficult to find a 709 in TO-99. >> (DIP >> should be easy to find something to substitute.) > > TO-99 709s are difficult to find, but not impossible. For most > applications I believe a 741 can be used as a drop-in replacement for > a 709; this being a voltage regulator I'd guess it probably isn't all > that demanding on the 709's particular specifications. > > It wouldn't be 100% historically correct, but if you think about it, > that would likely have been a reasonable repair method during this > machine's service lifetime. > > I'd say do it. The 741 was well available by the time of the Altos introduction, and simpler to use than the 709. Mildly surprising to hear the Altos used the 709, perhaps the 741 was still a fair bit more expensive. Pins 1 & 5 (TO-99) connect to external compensation components on the 709, they are for offset null on the 741. One should probably snip off or leave open those pins if replacing a 709 with a 741. I think I have one 709 in TO-99 from my first op-amp project (a square-wave generator) ca 1972. From chd at chdickman.com Mon Sep 20 20:08:34 2010 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 21:08:34 -0400 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 5:01 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > As all of us who do hardware repairs know, a multimeter is an essential > piece of test equipment. > Agreed and I like the Fluke meters. I have one personally and I insist on them professionally. It's totally black for half the > height, I asusem the liquid crystal material has leaked out (although the > glass is not obviously cracked or broken). Something that I have seen on multiple occasions with Fluke meters is a problem with the conductive polymer bridge between the circuit board and the LCD glass. Usually pressing on the case in the right spot makes the display normal. I don't think I have seen the display behave as you describe. Usually it causes dim segments. -chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 20:15:26 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 20:15:26 -0500 Subject: DiscFerret -- PCBs have arrived In-Reply-To: <4C9802B4.3040108@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C9802B4.3040108@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C98072E.9040703@gmail.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > (mouse microswitches... Logitech should be shot for using those nasty Omron things). On that note... yes. I like my Logitech rodents, but I always had a couple of spare mice in the junk pile, just because I knew I'd be using the microswitches sooner of later :-) Mind you, my mouse of choice for the last few years has been the Intellimouse. I never thought I'd find a good Microsoft product! cheers Jules From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Sep 20 20:16:27 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 18:16:27 -0700 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: References: <4C961C1A.1070600@comcast.net> <20100920011407.GC21591@n0jcf.net> <4a1fc98c909ce04df6e5c6935681bda8@cs.ubc.ca> <4C97DD02.2010107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C98076B.2050705@bitsavers.org> On 9/20/10 6:07 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Mildly surprising to hear the Altos used the 709 The Diablo 31 disk drive uses a 709, not the Alto. From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Sep 20 20:21:57 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 18:21:57 -0700 Subject: Diablo 30 disks and failure In-Reply-To: References: from "Mark Kahrs" at Sep 16, 10 07:52:31 am Message-ID: From: Tony Duell Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 12:27 PM >> There's a reason the Alto file system had the scavanger and was designed to >> be recovered... > I wonder if it's a conincidence that the PERQ POS filesystem recovery > tool is also called 'scavenger' and that the PERQ filesystem also stores > all the pointers at least twice so it's posisble to recover from quite > bad disk corruption. Not that any PERQ had a dmountable hard disk. The ITS ("eye" "tee" "ess", never "it's") operating system for the PDP-10 also has a filesystem component called the scavenger, and there's unlikely to be much influence between that and the Alto/PERQ. It's kind of an obvious name, isn't it? Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From pcw at mesanet.com Mon Sep 20 20:30:39 2010 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 18:30:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Diablo 30 disks and failure In-Reply-To: References: from "Mark Kahrs" at Sep 16, 10 07:52:31 am Message-ID: > > The ITS ("eye" "tee" "ess", never "it's") operating system for the PDP-10 > also has a filesystem component called the scavenger, and there's unlikely > to be much influence between that and the Alto/PERQ. It's kind of an > obvious name, isn't it? > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer > Vulcan, Inc. > 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 > Seattle, WA 98104 > > mailto:RichA at vulcan.com > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.PDPplanet.org/ > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > Didn't the Perq scavenger have a vulture cursor? I vaguely remember that. (I did our first data sheets on he Perq with Metaform, printed on a Xerox 2700? laser printer) Peter Wallace From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Sep 20 20:35:39 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 18:35:39 -0700 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <4C98076B.2050705@bitsavers.org> References: <4C961C1A.1070600@comcast.net> <20100920011407.GC21591@n0jcf.net> <4a1fc98c909ce04df6e5c6935681bda8@cs.ubc.ca> <4C97DD02.2010107@neurotica.com> <4C98076B.2050705@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 2010 Sep 20, at 6:16 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 9/20/10 6:07 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> Mildly surprising to hear the Altos used the 709 > > The Diablo 31 disk drive uses a 709, not the Alto. Right, .. was forgetting as the specifics were getting lost as the thread progressed. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Sep 20 20:58:39 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 02:58:39 +0100 Subject: DiscFerret -- PCBs have arrived In-Reply-To: <4C98072E.9040703@gmail.com> References: <4C9802B4.3040108@philpem.me.uk> <4C98072E.9040703@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C98114F.7060106@philpem.me.uk> On 21/09/10 02:15, Jules Richardson wrote: > On that note... yes. I like my Logitech rodents, but I always had a > couple of spare mice in the junk pile, just because I knew I'd be using > the microswitches sooner of later :-) I was going to buy a bunch of the Omron switches Logitech used, except they were apparently a custom part. Cherry's equivalent is discontinued (and has a mechanical lifetime of only 5000 operations vs. 1e6 for the Omron part)... ... so I bought a bag full of Rapid's own "RVFM" brand switches. Specced for 1e6 operations, and cheap enough that if I need to swap a switch again I won't really care. > Mind you, my mouse of choice for the last few years has been the > Intellimouse. I never thought I'd find a good Microsoft product! I've got a Logitech LX8 on my desktop, and a V450 Nano in the laptop bag. They're great little things, but I have had issues with them: - Soldering quality. The antenna on the LX8 came desoldered. Predictably, the operating range went from a few feet to about six inches. Fixed by disassembling it (lots of plastic clips!) and resoldering part of the RF section. - Switch quality. The Omron switches are utter crap. But the good points definitely outweigh the bad: - The laser mice will track on just about anything, including the really nasty workbenches and computer desks in the university computer labs and library. The LX8 does REALLY nicely on my varnished pine desk, which has a reputation for upsetting cheap optical mice. - Radio range is pretty damn good (when the aerial is soldered down properly!) - Great battery life. Several months on a charged set of Eneloops or Duracells. - Spares availability. If I manage to lose the Nano receiver, they're available as spares for a shade under a tenner. Shame the glide-pads aren't on the spares list though :( - Ergonomics. Cheap mice tend to make my hand / wrist hurt after a while. I've never had that with Logitechs. In short: if you're OK with having to perform surgery on the thing every year to replace the switches (or go through Warranty Claim Hell), they're fine. Frankly I'd just swap the switches, it saves one more piece of WEEE ending up in landfill. Now if only I could find a source for some of the little Teflon feet that stick on the bottom... those things wear out FAST (or the glue fails, one or the other). -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 21:10:49 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 22:10:49 -0400 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <4a1fc98c909ce04df6e5c6935681bda8@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4C961C1A.1070600@comcast.net> <20100920011407.GC21591@n0jcf.net> <4a1fc98c909ce04df6e5c6935681bda8@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > If the 709 was a TO-99 (can) package and you need to replace it, I have lots > of 741's in TO-99. I have new Motorola MC1709Gs in stock. -- Will From dbetz at xlisper.com Mon Sep 20 21:18:39 2010 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 22:18:39 -0400 Subject: Free?: Toshiba Libretto 100CT and Apple Powerbook 160 In-Reply-To: References: <3C7F5F6B-F013-4E0E-862E-36A395F1EF6E@voysys.com> Message-ID: <5F69EC56-96AA-4F83-B335-65D77428A2FD@xlisper.com> > I've received two "yes" responses, so please consider it claimed. Well, I have the consolation prize I guess. I've been meaning to get rid of a Toshiba Libretto 70CT with external floppy drive, CD ROM drive and docking station. I also have a carrying case for it. It worked the last time I tried it but I'm not sure how good the battery is. Anyone interested? You pay the shipping unless you have something interesting to trade. Ever since reading the book "Racing the Beam" by Nick Montfort and Ian Bogost I've been interested in getting an Atari 2600... From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Sep 20 21:25:43 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 03:25:43 +0100 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C9817A7.7060803@philpem.me.uk> On 20/09/10 22:01, Tony Duell wrote: > Given that I need the standard functions only (including a good > continuity tester!), don't need excessive accuracy, and would like to be > able to fix it if anything goes wrong, does anyone have any > recomendatins? I am not conviced I should buy another Fluke, BTW. I was going to suggest the Fluke 25 or 27 -- these can be had for about ?20 to ?30, do all the basics (current to 10A, voltage to about 750V, resistance to 10M) and are ruggedised, so pretty difficult to break. Put it this way: if you drop it on your foot, expect a trip to A&E. If you want a true fix-it-yourself meter and can live with a bench DMM, hunt down a Solartron 7150 Plus. They're >90% standard parts; only the EAROM and maskROM CPU are likely to cause issues. In any case, they're Hitachi 63B09s, so you could desolder them, kick them into Test mode on a breadboard, and read out the entire mask ROM. Then all you need is a "piggyback" (development/debug) 63B09 and an EPROM to replace it with. If you're after modern, shiny and new, the Agilent U1251A and U1251B are nice. Really, REALLY nice. Big display, 4.5-digit 50,000 count, true-RMS voltage to 1kV, current to 10A, resistance to 500Megohms, capacitance, diode check and continuity. Also does temperature measurement (internal sensor or external K-type thermocouple) and data-logging with RS232-over-infrared output, which is handy. I've been using it to track reflow profiles during SMD soldering tests. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 21:35:05 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 23:35:05 -0300 Subject: Mouse, mice, rato, etc References: <4C9802B4.3040108@philpem.me.uk> <4C98072E.9040703@gmail.com> <4C98114F.7060106@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <005b01cb5935$bdf7bf20$0600000a@portajara> > Now if only I could find a source for some of the little Teflon feet > that stick on the bottom... those things wear out FAST (or the glue > fails, one or the other). www.dealextreme.com has them for a very cheap price From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Mon Sep 20 22:08:32 2010 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles Morris) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 22:08:32 -0500 Subject: ST-277R drive and controller Message-ID: I have an old Seagate ST-277R (62 MB) drive with ST21/22 controller. It is recognized by MSDOS and Win98 in an AMD K6/300 system and can read and write files. I'm running Defrag on it now. Someone on the list had expressed interest but I don't have your email any more - if you still want it (cheap!) please contact me offlist. thanks Charles From dbetz at xlisper.com Mon Sep 20 22:12:18 2010 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 23:12:18 -0400 Subject: Free?: Toshiba Libretto 100CT and Apple Powerbook 160 In-Reply-To: <5F69EC56-96AA-4F83-B335-65D77428A2FD@xlisper.com> References: <3C7F5F6B-F013-4E0E-862E-36A395F1EF6E@voysys.com> <5F69EC56-96AA-4F83-B335-65D77428A2FD@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <3D683BC6-766A-442C-84AF-8BD989D4BFC6@xlisper.com> I still have it but I'm going to wait a bit to see if anyone offers anything in trade. On Sep 20, 2010, at 10:18 PM, David Betz wrote: >> I've received two "yes" responses, so please consider it claimed. > > Well, I have the consolation prize I guess. I've been meaning to get rid of a Toshiba Libretto 70CT with external floppy drive, CD ROM drive and docking station. I also have a carrying case for it. It worked the last time I tried it but I'm not sure how good the battery is. Anyone interested? You pay the shipping unless you have something interesting to trade. Ever since reading the book "Racing the Beam" by Nick Montfort and Ian Bogost I've been interested in getting an Atari 2600... > From dbetz at xlisper.com Mon Sep 20 22:17:34 2010 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 23:17:34 -0400 Subject: Free?: Toshiba Libretto 100CT and Apple Powerbook 160 In-Reply-To: <3D683BC6-766A-442C-84AF-8BD989D4BFC6@xlisper.com> References: <3C7F5F6B-F013-4E0E-862E-36A395F1EF6E@voysys.com> <5F69EC56-96AA-4F83-B335-65D77428A2FD@xlisper.com> <3D683BC6-766A-442C-84AF-8BD989D4BFC6@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <473A1B87-76B3-46E5-B0C9-96D522175441@xlisper.com> On Sep 20, 2010, at 11:12 PM, David Betz wrote: > I still have it but I'm going to wait a bit to see if anyone offers anything in trade. Sorry! That was supposed to be a private message. :-( From bqt at softjar.se Mon Sep 20 12:47:38 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 19:47:38 +0200 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C979E3A.50109@softjar.se> cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > On 9/17/10, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> > So, in the end, implementing the ANSI color codes was the only >> > reasonable way to get colored output on the VT525, and it is nice to >> > have... I like playing Beyond Zork with color and primitive graphics on >> > my PDP11... :-) > > Ooh! Now you have my attention. Long ago, I grabbed the ITF > Z-machine source code and got it working under VMS 4.x (it was trivial > once I had a working curses library), so I was able to run an number > of v3 games on our 11/750, but now that there are many more Z-machine > choices, I haven't gone back to fiddle with newer game file types. :-) I suspect you'd also have to work on whatever Z-machine implementation you use to actually make it use both ANSI color control, and also user defined fonts. And then, of course, you need a font. > I haven't seen a VT525 in the wild, but now I know what to do to show > it off if I do get one (but now I'm also wondering what it would take > to get what you have working on a Tektronix 4105 since I have a couple > of those). I don't think you want to go down that path. :-) I did say "primitive" graphics. Beyond Zork uses font 3 to play with some crude graphics. Basically mapping, and some bar charts and nice framing. And, of course, it uses color if possible. But if you are interested, I can send you my Z-machine font definitions for the VT200, VT200, VT400 and VT500 terminals, so you don't have to define those yourself. As for playing, if you just have a VT525, it's easy to test, by just logging in to Mim.Update.UU.SE, and play any Infocom game on that machine. My Z-machine for the PDP-11 do handle the font and color stuff for the VT terminals (of course). :-) Johnny From chrise at pobox.com Mon Sep 20 13:14:26 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 13:14:26 -0500 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <4C976F1C.1000500@bitsavers.org> References: <4C961C1A.1070600@comcast.net> <20100920011407.GC21591@n0jcf.net> <4C976F1C.1000500@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20100920181426.GE9145@n0jcf.net> On Monday (09/20/2010 at 07:26AM -0700), Al Kossow wrote: > On 9/19/10 6:14 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: >> ah, that was me. >> >> we just bypassed >> that regulator circuit and stuck a 7805 there instead > > I don't know how long that will survive, since it is only a 1A regulator > dropping 10v (15 -> 5) That's right. It was definitely not intended as a long term fix. Just something to move the ball forward while at the show. We tried to be careful to do the mod so that it can be undone and the proper fix (which is to replace the 709 op amp) applied. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From mark.kahrs at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 14:15:42 2010 From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 15:15:42 -0400 Subject: Tektronix inkjet printer (ancient stuff) Message-ID: I had this idea once and so I gutted a Tektronix inkjet printer --- what I have is a set of driver boards and the inkjets. This is part number 070-8072-00 and others. If you'd like them, all I ask is that you pay postage / shipping. From s.kheireddine at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 15:47:29 2010 From: s.kheireddine at gmail.com (Kheireddine Saidi) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 21:47:29 +0100 Subject: GNT 3601 tape punch docs? In-Reply-To: <20100918002751.GA21923@n0jcf.net> References: <20100918002751.GA21923@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4C97C861.5080409@gmail.com> Hi, I got it working, well, what I have is a parallel interface GNT 3601 puncher rather than a serial one. Thanks to chris for the document. Actually I'm still having a timing problem, some bytes gets missed while others gets punched twice. I'll see how I could solve it (I'll probabely be checking the ack line but i got to make an other cable). It's a software problem. Then I think thats an advantage of the serial interface over the parallel. Sure the parallel is faster at punching, but I have time :-p I would had preffered not having to worry about synchronization than to punsh faster. I could send the parallel pinouts if someone needs them. Thank you people, tsch?ss S. Kheireddine From wgungfu at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 15:58:20 2010 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 15:58:20 -0500 Subject: 6502 simulated at transistor level - right in your browser (JavaScript) In-Reply-To: <4C97BF0A.6070503@brouhaha.com> References: <4C94FBA3.3020504@brouhaha.com> <4C96955B.3040101@brouhaha.com> <4C97BF0A.6070503@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: LOL, now the site does. Originally it did not show a picture or state any of that. On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 3:07 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Martin Goldberg wrote: > >> ?IE8, Windows XP > > There's the problem. ?The web site specifically says that IE will not work, > because it doesn't have any HTML5 support. > > From wgungfu at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 16:48:41 2010 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 16:48:41 -0500 Subject: How to prevent yellowing of equipment on display In-Reply-To: <4C974B6C.6404.9DE004@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B76AEEC-7AB2-4074-ABD8-3B2A817EC805@voysys.com> <4C974174.8416.76EE2A@cclist.sydex.com> <4C974B6C.6404.9DE004@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 1:54 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 20 Sep 2010 at 14:31, Michael Kerpan wrote: > >> Frankly, that seems a bit much. Given that there are ways to reverse >> that yellowing if it occurs (google "retrobrite" for more info), I'd >> say that simply limiting exposure to UV is an adequate measure. If >> things happen anyway, at least you'll know it can be fixed. > > There are a number of articles that have been published by > conservators for museums that limiting UV exposure doesn't prevent > the degradation of plastics. > > Indeed, it's a big headache now for museums and no one's come up with > any satisfactory answer to the problem. ?Cold storage at least slows > the process. It's usually the oxygen that's involved in the breakdown. After Retrobrite, it's recommended to spray them with a light sealant like satin acrylic lacquer. (Note that this is not a heavy paint on lacquer like people think of with lacquering a piece of furniture). Same thing used in some art communities to protect paper projects, paintings, etc. Marty From wgungfu at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 16:51:19 2010 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 16:51:19 -0500 Subject: 6502 simulated at transistor level - right in your browser (JavaScript) In-Reply-To: <201009201422.43797.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <4C94FBA3.3020504@brouhaha.com> <201009201422.43797.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: Actually, the new IE9 does HTML5. Of course, IE9 does not support Windows XP. Oh Joy. Marty On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 4:22 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > On Saturday 18 September 2010, Eric Smith wrote: >> ? http://www.visual6502.org/JSSim/ >> > > For those (poor souls) who are using IE - you might want to use Google's Chrome browser instead. It does HTML5 (and the site Eric mentions above) just fine. Chrome is available for Windows, Mac OS X and Linux... > > As I write I'm using Chrome on Linux view the "Visual 6502"... > > Cheers, > Lyle > -- > Lyle Bickley, AF6WS > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > http://bickleywest.com > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" > From pinball at telus.net Mon Sep 20 20:58:33 2010 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 18:58:33 -0700 Subject: How to prevent yellowing of equipment on display In-Reply-To: <4B76AEEC-7AB2-4074-ABD8-3B2A817EC805@voysys.com> References: <4B76AEEC-7AB2-4074-ABD8-3B2A817EC805@voysys.com> Message-ID: <4C981149.4050603@telus.net> Marden P. Marshall wrote: > I know that there has been a tremendous amount of talk about removing yellowing from vintage equipment, but going forward, does anyone have any suggestions for helping prevent yellowing of equipment on display, short of keeping them in a dark cave? I have a couple of Apple II's that are in excellent condition with minimal yellowing and would like to put them on display without having to worry about damage to the plastic. > > -Mardy > > > Has anyone looked into sealing the plastic items with a plastic coating? Spray on acrylic or urethane products? Possibly dipping in something like fiberglass resin would protect against the atmosphere. I haven't seen signs of that polymer breaking down - at least in equipment I have from the early 1970s. If oxygen is the enemy then almost anything would help... John :-#)# From pinball at telus.net Mon Sep 20 21:00:55 2010 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 19:00:55 -0700 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C9811D7.1070105@telus.net> Tony Duell wrote: > As all of us who do hardware repairs know, a multimeter is an essential > piece of test equipment. > > Until a couple of days ago, I used a Fluke 85 (original series). It did > what I wanted, there were 2 parts of the design I didn't like, but apart > from that it was great > ... > > Anyway, I was using this iustrument on Saturday (actualy for testing the > PSU, etc, in an HP2623 graphics terminal) with no problems. I put it away > in my tool drawer. On Sunday I got it out for some other tests and > discovered the display had failed. It's totally black for half the > height, I asusem the liquid crystal material has leaked out (although the > glass is not obviously cracked or broken). AFAIK nothing fell on it in > the tool drawer (there are no really heavy tools in there anyway), it > wasn't dropped, etc. Just one of those things. > > This may simply be a case of reseating the LCD screen. It is a compression fit against the PCB with a conduction riser, try reversing the riser and power it up again. I've kept a few meters going past apparent best-before-dates doing this. John :-#)# > -tony > > > > From zmerch at 1400rpm.com Mon Sep 20 21:21:27 2010 From: zmerch at 1400rpm.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 22:21:27 -0400 Subject: They have an Amiga now with AROS, was Re: The Commodore 64 is back.. In-Reply-To: <467551.10917.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <467551.10917.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C9816A7.2010208@1400rpm.com> On 09/07/2010 03:27 AM, Al Hartman wrote: > AROS isn't anywhere near done enough to sell as part of a commercial product. > > I think there are a few garage type companies selling AROS compatible systems > with AROS pre-loaded, but they intend only to sell to folks who know what > they're buying. I.E.: An unfinished alpha-state OS. > > This makes me think this whole thing is doomed to failure if it's real at all. > Mainly because nobody involved has any business sense. Sure... make me start thinking about a hobby I don't have time for again... Some of the new Amiga systems (assuming they every get out of VaporWare) do look rather gnarly, but I haven't had time to tinker with the A4000T that I have next to me. Danger... Danger... Blasphemy ahead... I've been semi-seriously debating selling it - it's a "new-ish" 4000T made in '98; so it's only 12 years old. Not a lot of addins, but I think it had a decent amount of RAM (12M seems to ring a bell) -- decent by old Amiga standards anyway... OK, Blasphemy over (for now, anyway)... Trying to get back into all the lists that I've had no choice to ignore over the last several months... and this is the best I can do? I'm pitiful... ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger From chrise at pobox.com Mon Sep 20 21:35:59 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 21:35:59 -0500 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <4a1fc98c909ce04df6e5c6935681bda8@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4C961C1A.1070600@comcast.net> <20100920011407.GC21591@n0jcf.net> <4a1fc98c909ce04df6e5c6935681bda8@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20100921023559.GJ21591@n0jcf.net> On Monday (09/20/2010 at 11:49AM -0700), Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2010 Sep 19, at 6:14 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > >> ah, that was me. >> >> Was a great time and really a blast to dig into the Alto. We >> definitely >> improvised, not having a stock of uA709 opamp on hand... we just >> bypassed >> that regulator circuit and stuck a 7805 there instead, which was >> pilfered >> from Vince Briel's spare parts stock for his Altair8800micro kits. >> Too much fun. > > If the 709 was a TO-99 (can) package and you need to replace it, I have > lots of 741's in TO-99. > > Just mentioning it in case it is difficult to find a 709 in TO-99. (DIP > should be easy to find something to substitute.) I'm sure Nick will appreciate the offer... unfortunately, the one that's in there is a 14-pin DIP. I'm not remembering now if I saw a manufacturers mark on the package but I do see now that Fairchild made a single 709 in a 14-pin DIP... Chris -- Chris Elmquist From nick.allen at comcast.net Mon Sep 20 23:16:06 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 23:16:06 -0500 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C983186.8030605@comcast.net> Need to find the 14 pin opamp (as I am also a purest and want it to be ORIGINAL), found a pair on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330471900022&rvr_id=143156802920&crlp=1_263602_263622&UA=%3F*F%3F&GUID=94213f4c1260a0269d971e47ff8e9d4d&itemid=330471900022%24&ff4=263602_263622 WAY to expensive, and I only need 1, anyone have one they might be able to sell me, or able to find a cheaper source? Also, Eric Kudzin spent some time trying to fix the CRT, we are making progress and as part of the testing we need to test a KNOWN WORKING computer on the Alto monitor/crt. I have a PET 2001, we made a custom cable (it "should" work), anyone know if the PET video out will work on the Alto monitor? Here is the adapter: http://lh6.ggpht.com/_lkddKjPsPFU/TJgv61uSNMI/AAAAAAAABhM/-n0SEds-o5g/_1020935.JPG From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 01:22:44 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 02:22:44 -0400 Subject: How to prevent yellowing of equipment on display In-Reply-To: References: <4B76AEEC-7AB2-4074-ABD8-3B2A817EC805@voysys.com> <4C974174.8416.76EE2A@cclist.sydex.com> <4C974B6C.6404.9DE004@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > It's usually the oxygen that's involved in the breakdown. ?After > Retrobrite, it's recommended to spray them with a light sealant like > satin acrylic lacquer. If you are going to spray the thing, you might as well use paint, and not worry about Retrobrite. -- Will From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Sep 21 01:30:05 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 23:30:05 -0700 Subject: Diablo 30 disks and failure In-Reply-To: References: from "Mark Kahrs" at Sep 16, 10 07:52:31 am Message-ID: <4C9850ED.4060007@mail.msu.edu> On 9/20/2010 6:30 PM, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > > Didn't the Perq scavenger have a vulture cursor? I vaguely remember that. > (I did our first data sheets on he Perq with Metaform, printed on a > Xerox 2700? laser printer) > > Peter Wallace > Yup: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/projects/PERQemu/scavenger.jpg The "garbage" on the screen is simply the memory of Scavenger as it runs; the window size is reduced so that Scavenger has more memory to run in on low-memory systems. (It also doubles as a progress indicator of sorts...) - Josh From rachael at telefisk.org Tue Sep 21 04:02:35 2010 From: rachael at telefisk.org (Jacob Dahl Pind) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 11:02:35 +0200 Subject: quantum link video Message-ID: <4C9874AB.8040002@telefisk.org> havent seen this one posted here a video of a quantium link session , september 1989. http://blip.tv/file/4138357 -- Jacob Dahl Pind | telefisk.org | fidonet 2:237/38.8 From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue Sep 21 05:29:36 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 11:29:36 +0100 Subject: Apple II Killer App In-Reply-To: <20100920125051.I7054@shell.lmi.net> References: <3C7F5F6B-F013-4E0E-862E-36A395F1EF6E@voysys.com> <20100920125051.I7054@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <328CCFD359FB4250B7E95B2035F91F5D@RodsDevSystem> Visicalc.. But .. It was the Visicalc they were buying. The Apple was considered just something you needed if you wanted to run Visicalc. Visicalc also ran on Apple Lisa, Atari. IBM PC and Commodore PET. Regards ? Rod Smallwood (Formerly Visicalc Product Manger - Rapid Recall) ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: 20 September 2010 20:52 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Apple II Killer App On Mon, 20 Sep 2010, Marden P. Marshall wrote: > So now that I know that my recently restored Apple II is going to turn > into dust in the not too distant future, how can It best be demonstrated > to illustrate why it was so awesome back in '78? For example, with an > Altair, you can either load Billy's Micro Soft Basic or play "Fool on > the Hill" through your AM radio. But what application do you run on an > Apple II that epitomizes Steve and The Woz's gift to man kind? VisiCalc Flight Simulator From billdeg at degnanco.com Tue Sep 21 08:14:43 2010 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 09:14:43 -0400 Subject: Photos from VCF MW including the Alto II XM Message-ID: <113d5075$32054ee7$30292730$@com> Link to photos from the VCF MW http://vintagecomputer.net/vcfmw-ECCC_2010/ http://vintagecomputer.net/vcfmw-ECCC_2010/Xerox_Alto-II-XM/ Bill Degnan From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Sep 21 08:26:45 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 09:26:45 -0400 Subject: Apple II Killer App References: <3C7F5F6B-F013-4E0E-862E-36A395F1EF6E@voysys.com><20100920125051.I7054@shell.lmi.net> <328CCFD359FB4250B7E95B2035F91F5D@RodsDevSystem> Message-ID: The whole point of a killer app is that is sells systems just to run that app. How many months or years was it before you could run Visicalc on anything but an Apple II? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rod Smallwood" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only'" Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2010 6:29 AM Subject: RE: Apple II Killer App Visicalc.. But .. It was the Visicalc they were buying. The Apple was considered just something you needed if you wanted to run Visicalc. Visicalc also ran on Apple Lisa, Atari. IBM PC and Commodore PET. Regards Rod Smallwood (Formerly Visicalc Product Manger - Rapid Recall) -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: 20 September 2010 20:52 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Apple II Killer App On Mon, 20 Sep 2010, Marden P. Marshall wrote: > So now that I know that my recently restored Apple II is going to turn > into dust in the not too distant future, how can It best be demonstrated > to illustrate why it was so awesome back in '78? For example, with an > Altair, you can either load Billy's Micro Soft Basic or play "Fool on > the Hill" through your AM radio. But what application do you run on an > Apple II that epitomizes Steve and The Woz's gift to man kind? VisiCalc Flight Simulator From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Tue Sep 21 08:27:58 2010 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 08:27:58 -0500 Subject: Apple II Killer App In-Reply-To: References: <3C7F5F6B-F013-4E0E-862E-36A395F1EF6E@voysys.com><20100920125051.I7054@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E05B46D3B@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Lemonade stand. Our high school computer room used to resound with the music from the various weather forcasts for that game. -Bob bbrown at harpercollege.edu ####? #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ##? ##? ## Supervisor of Operations Palatine IL USA????????? ####? #### Saved by grace -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jason T Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 3:25 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Apple II Killer App On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 3:00 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > If you were the right age to be in school when they were full of Apple > IIs, "Oregon Trail" was a big deal. ?I was not, but folks I know who > are now about 30-35 were. Oregon Trail and Odell Lake are synonymous with my grade-school Apple // experience. However those were available on other platforms as well (OT came with my 64C.) From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 21 09:10:51 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 10:10:51 -0400 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C98BCEB.2040608@neurotica.com> On 9/20/10 7:18 PM, dwight elvey wrote: >> 1) You have ot dispmantle the meter to change the battery, and it's >> assembeled with self-tapping screws going into the plastic case. I don't >> know how many insertions they will stand. >> > ---snip--- > > Ahh > Something I know that Tony doesn't. > I work with a lot of things that are wood and > have screws that, if screwed in and out too many times, > will end up with holes that don't hold the screws any more. > Similar problem to the plastic and self tapping screws. > I was shown a trick by an old wood worker years ago > to keep from cutting new threads. > You place the screw into the hole and while holding light > pressure, rotate it backwards with the screw driver. > At one point in rotation, it will kind of pop down. I don't > know how else to describe this but it is a feel thing. > Then, screw the screw in. It will now follow the old threads. > On the plastic with thread cutting screws, use very light > touch and carefully screw in. It will bind if not aligned well. > Of course, if the hole has already been abused many times, > this doesn't work as well. This is really the only sane way to do it, and it really does significantly reduce the wear and tear on the plastic. This was discussed here a few months ago. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 21 09:17:41 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 10:17:41 -0400 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C98BE85.3010304@neurotica.com> On 9/20/10 8:02 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > In terms of used Flukes, I highly recommend any used 77-series unit. You can critique the designs because of what you saw as failings of your Fluke 85, but believe me, the LCD display on any Fluke LCD DMM will be far more durable than the faceplate on my Simpson 260 or Triplett 630. > > At the very low end, in the $3 to $5 range there are "disposable" DMM's available at discount stores here in the US. They are not a joy to use but they do mostly work. I've evaluated five or six of these. The accuracy and stability of these things, especially in the face of temperature variations, is utter crap. Don't ever adjust a +5V supply in a PDP-11 using one of these. ;) Some of these were tested as being 15% off, measuring nearly six volts from a (very tightly calibrated) 5V supply! Buying cheap multimeters (or any other tool, really) is a false economy. My daily-use handheld DMM is an original Fluke 77 (no suffix) that I stole from work so long ago that I don't mind mentioning it here. ;) I've had it for almost twenty years, and it was well-used when I got it. It works as if it were brand new. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 21 09:25:30 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 07:25:30 -0700 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <4C983186.8030605@comcast.net> References: <4C983186.8030605@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4C98C05A.5020300@bitsavers.org> On 9/20/10 9:16 PM, Nick Allen wrote: > Also, Eric Kudzin spent some time trying to fix the CRT, we are making progress and as part of the testing we need to test a KNOWN WORKING computer on the Alto totally incompatible. The Alto monitor timing is pretty unique. The display is portrait, 606 x 808 with the high frequency scan from top to bottom. Overheating and horizontal deflection failures are very common in Alto monitors. The most common cause of failure is that the horizontal width coil overheats and unsolders itself from the PC board. Because the horizontal scan occurs across the narrower dimension of the tube, a lot of power is dissipated in the width coil. It also burns up the paper tube it is wound on, making it impossible to adjust the width. I ended up rewinding a bunch of them recently using new coil forms and heavier wire. Horizonal and vertical drive are hardwired in the display hardware. You won't get a raster until the display microcode is loaded and running, though, and you have a long way to go before you're that far. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 21 09:45:16 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 07:45:16 -0700 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 8:02 PM -0400 9/20/10, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >Personally I enjoy a big Simpson 260-dash-whatever. > >The Triplett 630 is in the same league. > >Both have been in production (in one variant or another) since before WWII. > >The RCA Senior Voltohmysts I love for their fashion sense but unless >I need VTVM class input impedances, I'd prefer the Simpson or >Triplett. > >In terms of used Flukes, I highly recommend any used 77-series unit. >You can critique the designs because of what you saw as failings of >your Fluke 85, but believe me, the LCD display on any Fluke LCD DMM >will be far more durable than the faceplate on my Simpson 260 or >Triplett 630. I never liked the Simpson's, but I've always loved the Fluke 77's. I used both when I was an electrician. I used to have a fairly nice Rat Shack multimeter that was a lot like it, until I gave it to my Dad. I replaced it with a Fluke 77 series III, and wouldn't hesitate to buy another! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 21 09:45:18 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 07:45:18 -0700 Subject: Photos from VCF MW including the Alto II XM In-Reply-To: <113d5075$32054ee7$30292730$@com> References: <113d5075$32054ee7$30292730$@com> Message-ID: <4C98C4FE.9010902@bitsavers.org> On 9/21/10 6:14 AM, Bill Degnan wrote: > Link to photos from the VCF MW > > http://vintagecomputer.net/vcfmw-ECCC_2010/Xerox_Alto-II-XM/ > http://vintagecomputer.net/vcfmw-ECCC_2010/Xerox_Alto-II-XM/xerox_Alto-II-XM_card-cage-populated.jpg The MEAT card is in the wrong slot (5 instead of 7). The module placement drawings are on bitsavers. AltoIIMaintSchem_1978.pdf page 10. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 10:00:13 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 10:00:13 -0500 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4C98BE85.3010304@neurotica.com> References: <4C98BE85.3010304@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C98C87D.20400@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >> At the very low end, in the $3 to $5 range there are "disposable" >> DMM's available at discount stores here in the US. They are not a joy >> to use but they do mostly work. > > I've evaluated five or six of these. The accuracy and stability of > these things, especially in the face of temperature variations, is utter > crap. Don't ever adjust a +5V supply in a PDP-11 using one of these. ;) > Some of these were tested as being 15% off, measuring nearly six volts > from a (very tightly calibrated) 5V supply! Yeah, they're certainly not great - although I've generally had one kicking around for car-related stuff, where it usually gets pretty dirty and is bumped around a lot. Good for continuity and "does this thing have power?" type tests. Must pick another one up - I'm just surviving on my good Amprobe meter right now, and it's already got oily fingerprints all over it :-) cheers Jules From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Sep 21 10:07:41 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 08:07:41 -0700 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4C98BE85.3010304@neurotica.com> References: , <4C98BE85.3010304@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 10:17:41 -0400 > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > To: > Subject: Re: Multimeter recomendations > > On 9/20/10 8:02 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > > In terms of used Flukes, I highly recommend any used 77-series unit. You can critique the designs because of what you saw as failings of your Fluke 85, but believe me, the LCD display on any Fluke LCD DMM will be far more durable than the faceplate on my Simpson 260 or Triplett 630. > > > > At the very low end, in the $3 to $5 range there are "disposable" DMM's available at discount stores here in the US. They are not a joy to use but they do mostly work. > > I've evaluated five or six of these. The accuracy and stability of > these things, especially in the face of temperature variations, is utter > crap. Don't ever adjust a +5V supply in a PDP-11 using one of these. ;) > Some of these were tested as being 15% off, measuring nearly six volts > from a (very tightly calibrated) 5V supply! > > Buying cheap multimeters (or any other tool, really) is a false > economy. My daily-use handheld DMM is an original Fluke 77 (no suffix) > that I stole from work so long ago that I don't mind mentioning it here. > ;) I've had it for almost twenty years, and it was well-used when I got > it. It works as if it were brand new. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL Hi This is not always true. I have a cheap meter that I bought for about $8 at HSC. It has always been dead-nuts-on. It even has a socket for testing transistors ( never use that ). It has calibration pots if needed but I've never needed it. I've used it in all kind of realistic temperatures ( those I can withstand ) and it hasn't had a problem. I don't use it to calibrate my supply output ( for that I use a 5 digit Fluke ). As a handy hand held meter that I could always not worry about breaking, it has worked quite well. I don't think I've ever seen such a meter being 15% off unless it was broken to start with. When you say, some of these were tested, what exactly does that mean? Which brands and were they calibrated or just off the shelf? Dwight From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 10:08:47 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 11:08:47 -0400 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4C97931F.28901.1B5F30D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C97931F.28901.1B5F30D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 9/20/10, Chuck Guzis wrote: > You can get ABS rod stock in very small diameters (3 mm) as "ABS > welding rod". That material in that size happens to be the feedstock for Makerbot and RepRap 3D printers. It costs anywhere from $10-$15/lb, so a small snip for hole repair would be more in postage than for the plastic. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 21 10:16:11 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 11:16:11 -0400 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: References: , <4C98BE85.3010304@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C98CC3B.20802@neurotica.com> On 9/21/10 11:07 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > > > > >> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 10:17:41 -0400 >> From: mcguire at neurotica.com >> To: >> Subject: Re: Multimeter recomendations >> >> On 9/20/10 8:02 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >>> In terms of used Flukes, I highly recommend any used 77-series unit. You can critique the designs because of what you saw as failings of your Fluke 85, but believe me, the LCD display on any Fluke LCD DMM will be far more durable than the faceplate on my Simpson 260 or Triplett 630. >>> >>> At the very low end, in the $3 to $5 range there are "disposable" DMM's available at discount stores here in the US. They are not a joy to use but they do mostly work. >> >> I've evaluated five or six of these. The accuracy and stability of >> these things, especially in the face of temperature variations, is utter >> crap. Don't ever adjust a +5V supply in a PDP-11 using one of these. ;) >> Some of these were tested as being 15% off, measuring nearly six volts >> from a (very tightly calibrated) 5V supply! >> >> Buying cheap multimeters (or any other tool, really) is a false >> economy. My daily-use handheld DMM is an original Fluke 77 (no suffix) >> that I stole from work so long ago that I don't mind mentioning it here. >> ;) I've had it for almost twenty years, and it was well-used when I got >> it. It works as if it were brand new. > > This is not always true. I have a cheap meter that I bought > for about $8 at HSC. It has always been dead-nuts-on. > It even has a socket for testing transistors ( never use that ). > It has calibration pots if needed but I've never needed it. > I've used it in all kind of realistic temperatures ( those I > can withstand ) and it hasn't had a problem. > I don't use it to calibrate my supply output ( for that I use > a 5 digit Fluke ). As a handy hand held meter that I > could always not worry about breaking, it has worked quite well. That's excellent! For every rule, there is an exception. ;) > I don't think I've ever seen such a meter being 15% off unless > it was broken to start with. That's kinda my point. ;) > When you say, some of these were tested, what exactly does > that mean? Which brands and were they calibrated or just > off the shelf? Just off-the-shelf. I don't recall the brands offhand; they're in a box somewhere. I got curious about cheapie DMMs after a discussion with a colleague many years ago, and I bought a bunch of them. They cost no more than $20/ea. I tested them against my lab standards (I have NIST-traceable voltage and resistance standards here) and did some very basic "stick it in the freezer for five minutes then retest, hit it with a hair dryer and retest" type of thermal stability testing. The results were less than stellar. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Sep 21 10:34:27 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 11:34:27 -0400 Subject: Multimeter recomendations References: , <4C98BE85.3010304@neurotica.com> <4C98CC3B.20802@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <243BA82881384E048445DF64ACC94C16@dell8300> I have a Fluke 29 series (going by memory). Do you guys ever bother to get your meters recalibrated every so many years? From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 21 10:55:08 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 11:55:08 -0400 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <243BA82881384E048445DF64ACC94C16@dell8300> References: , <4C98BE85.3010304@neurotica.com> <4C98CC3B.20802@neurotica.com> <243BA82881384E048445DF64ACC94C16@dell8300> Message-ID: <4C98D55C.8010503@neurotica.com> On 9/21/10 11:34 AM, Teo Zenios wrote: > I have a Fluke 29 series (going by memory). Do you guys ever bother to > get your meters recalibrated every so many years? I do my Fluke 77 every two years or so, but for the past couple of years it hasn't needed any adjustment at all. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 21 11:28:56 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 09:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple II Killer App In-Reply-To: <328CCFD359FB4250B7E95B2035F91F5D@RodsDevSystem> References: <3C7F5F6B-F013-4E0E-862E-36A395F1EF6E@voysys.com> <20100920125051.I7054@shell.lmi.net> <328CCFD359FB4250B7E95B2035F91F5D@RodsDevSystem> Message-ID: <20100921092650.E43496@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 21 Sep 2010, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Visicalc also ran on Apple Lisa, Atari. IBM PC and Commodore PET. and TRS80. The Visicalc location bar 'L', and that of the VisiClones (Supercalc, Lotus, etc) created the "Screen Saver" market From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Sep 21 12:00:46 2010 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 13:00:46 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?PARC_turns_40=3A_mice=2C_money=2C_and?= =?windows-1252?Q?_the_new_interwebs_=95_The_Register?= Message-ID: <4C98E4BE.5060106@sbcglobal.net> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/09/20/parc_40th_anniversary/ -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy in the internet. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 21 12:26:02 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 10:26:02 -0700 Subject: How to prevent yellowing of equipment on display In-Reply-To: References: <4B76AEEC-7AB2-4074-ABD8-3B2A817EC805@voysys.com>, <4C974B6C.6404.9DE004@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4C98883A.20423.4D4436@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Sep 2010 at 16:48, Martin Goldberg wrote: > It's usually the oxygen that's involved in the breakdown. After > Retrobrite, it's recommended to spray them with a light sealant like > satin acrylic lacquer. (Note that this is not a heavy paint on > lacquer like people think of with lacquering a piece of furniture). > Same thing used in some art communities to protect paper projects, > paintings, etc. Do you have a reference for this? The literature that I've seen pretty much faults the stabilizers and plasticizers as well as outgassing of same. I'd think that if a simple lacquer coating worked, museums could save a lot of money by not pursuing grants and holding conferences, publishing papers and books and generally agonizing about the subject. FWIW, I've used a product called "Midas Finish Seal Lacquer" marketed by Rio Grande (the jewelers' supply house). It's primarily used to seal jewelry finishes for display and can be easily removed. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 21 13:15:35 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 11:15:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4C98BCEB.2040608@neurotica.com> References: <4C98BCEB.2040608@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20100921111045.Y46522@shell.lmi.net> > Something I know that Tony doesn't. > I work with a lot of things that are wood and > have screws that, if screwed in and out too many times, > will end up with holes that don't hold the screws any more. Do you REALLY think that Tony does not know to turn back the screw to find the thread start??? Everybody that I have evr met who did NOT know to do that was under 30. Somehow, the absolute basics of even working with threaded fasteners have fallen from the educational system, and people are re-inventing basic normal techniques. When is the demo on how to suck eggs? From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 21 13:21:13 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 11:21:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4C98C87D.20400@gmail.com> References: <4C98BE85.3010304@neurotica.com> <4C98C87D.20400@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100921111816.D46522@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 21 Sep 2010, Jules Richardson wrote: > Yeah, they're certainly not great - although I've generally had one kicking > around for car-related stuff, where it usually gets pretty dirty and is bumped > around a lot. Good for continuity and "does this thing have power?" type tests. > Must pick another one up - I'm just surviving on my good Amprobe meter right > now, and it's already got oily fingerprints all over it :-) Harbor Freight puts them on sale for $3, or even $2 They are worth that much. One at work (I am not authorized to do ANYTHING with hardware at work), one in the trunk of the car, one at my mother's house, and a handful for when neighbors want to borrow tools. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Sep 21 13:58:01 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 11:58:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <20100921111045.Y46522@shell.lmi.net> References: <4C98BCEB.2040608@neurotica.com> <20100921111045.Y46522@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Sep 2010, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Something I know that Tony doesn't. >> I work with a lot of things that are wood and >> have screws that, if screwed in and out too many times, >> will end up with holes that don't hold the screws any more. > > Somehow, the absolute basics of even working with threaded fasteners have > fallen from the educational system, and people are re-inventing basic > normal techniques. > > When is the demo on how to suck eggs? Probably scheduled right after the How To Steal Sheep seminar. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Sep 21 14:03:40 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 12:03:40 -0700 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <4C983186.8030605@comcast.net> References: <4C983186.8030605@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 2010 Sep 20, at 9:16 PM, Nick Allen wrote: > Need to find the 14 pin opamp (as I am also a purest and want it to > be ORIGINAL), found a pair on ebay: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? > ViewItem&item=330471900022&rvr_id=143156802920&crlp=1_263602_263622&UA= > %3F*F%3F&GUID=94213f4c1260a0269d971e47ff8e9d4d&itemid=330471900022%24&f > f4=263602_263622 > > WAY to expensive, and I only need 1, anyone have one they might be > able to sell me, or able to find a cheaper source? Well, if you can't find a (reasonably-priced) 14-pinner, the pinout patterns of the 8 and 14-pin DIP versions are the same, so an 8-pin is a drop-in replacement for the the 14-pin. Begs the question of why the 14-pin version was ever produced, machine insertion/handling perhaps. I have a couple of 8-pin DIP 741s (UA741C) from 1974 (7409). From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 21 14:08:24 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 13:08:24 -0600 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: References: <4C98BCEB.2040608@neurotica.com> <20100921111045.Y46522@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C9902A8.1070003@jetnet.ab.ca> Gene Buckle wrote: >> When is the demo on how to suck eggs? > > Probably scheduled right after the How To Steal Sheep seminar. That one allways puts me to sleep. > g. > PS. topic . All ways keep spare batteries them too! From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Sep 21 14:19:07 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 12:19:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4C9902A8.1070003@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4C98BCEB.2040608@neurotica.com> <20100921111045.Y46522@shell.lmi.net> <4C9902A8.1070003@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Sep 2010, Ben wrote: > Gene Buckle wrote: > >>> When is the demo on how to suck eggs? >> >> Probably scheduled right after the How To Steal Sheep seminar. > > That one allways puts me to sleep. > Bummer. You might be more interested on Eve's Treatise on Apple Harvesting. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 15:04:33 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 15:04:33 -0500 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <20100921111045.Y46522@shell.lmi.net> References: <4C98BCEB.2040608@neurotica.com> <20100921111045.Y46522@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C990FD1.9080301@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > When is the demo on how to suck eggs? Too dangerous due to risk of choking, lacerations from broken shells, salmonella etc. etc. From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Sep 21 15:08:08 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 15:08:08 -0500 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <20100921111045.Y46522@shell.lmi.net> References: <4C98BCEB.2040608@neurotica.com> <20100921111045.Y46522@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201009212009.o8LK9qqL010433@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 01:15 PM 9/21/2010, Fred Cisin wrote: >Do you REALLY think that Tony does not know to turn back the screw to find >the thread start??? >Everybody that I have evr met who did NOT know to do that was under 30. When I read it, I was waiting for something tricky like slipping in a bit of tissue paper to tighten up the hole. At 01:21 PM 9/21/2010, Fred Cisin wrote: >Harbor Freight puts them on sale for $3, or even $2 >They are worth that much. Last flyer I saw, they were giving them away. - John From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 21 14:36:10 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 20:36:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4C97D470.5000401@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Sep 20, 10 04:38:56 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > 1) You have ot dispmantle the meter to change the battery, and it's > > assembeled with self-tapping screws going into the plastic case. I don't > > know how many insertions they will stand. > > *if* you could fix yours, can you modify the case to make some form of hinged > / clip-on battery compartment so that ceases to be an issue? It probably > doesn't even have to be pretty, so long as it's functional. Possibly. The problem with doing this (and the switch mod you suggested) is that I do use my mutlmeter on live mains stuff from time to time (not suprisingly). Now, there is obviously no isolation between the inputs and hte battery, which means the battery is 'live' when I am testing mains, etc. And any modifications would have to ensure that the there were no exposed live parts. > > Personally, if I've got a tool or bit of equipment that I like, I'll do > whatever I can to keep it going - and so long as it's not something rare, I > don't mind making a few alterations to the original design to make it suit > *my* needs better. I expect you can understand that! Oh, indeed... > > Regarding the LCD, maybe it's a driver issue rather than the LCD itself? How > do signals get from the PCB to the LCD - some form of ribbon cable, conductive > rubber strips, or something else? Maybe dirt's got in there or something? I wasnt clear in my fault description.... The LCD is not a dot-matrix one, it's a 7 segment thing with annunciators and a row of bargraph segments at the bottom. When I said half of it was black, I did not mean that half of the segments were turned on all the time (whcih would lmost likley be a driver problem, not that that would be any easier to fix). Nor do I mean that half the display is blank (which would suggest bad connectios tat the zebra strip connectors). No, what I mean is that the bottom part of the display is entirely _black_. Even parts where there are no segments. Even when the unit is turned off, when the battery is removed, or when the LCD glass is removed from its holder.It's not an even line between the black part and the bit that still works -- I could probably pass the display off as a silhouette iamge of a munntain range :-). IIRC, the LCD material rotates the plane of polarisation of light by $\pi$/2, and there are corssed polarising filters on the outside of the display (in this case they are not removeable). So normally the display looks clear. If the LCD material laks out, you get the effect of looking throguh a pair of crossed polaroids, i.e. black. Which is what I guess has happened here. Form the number of connections to the display, it must be multiplexed. And thus I cna't drop in a nromal display (not even for the digits only). Unless I can get the right part somehow -- and Fluke can no longer supply it -- I am stuck. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 21 14:14:51 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 20:14:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: GNT 3601 tape punch docs? In-Reply-To: <4C97C861.5080409@gmail.com> from "Kheireddine Saidi" at Sep 20, 10 09:47:29 pm Message-ID: > > Hi, > > I got it working, well, what I have is a parallel interface GNT 3601=20 > puncher rather than a serial one. Thanks to chris for the document. I wouldn't be suprised if that interface is very similar to the one on a Facit 4070, particularly as it's a DB25 connector. This parallel interfave seems to have become a de facto stanard for paprr tape punches. I don't know what the input stages are (I have even seen discrete transistors used in some punches), but if they're TTL ICs, the one connected to pin 3 will not have liked the -12V or whatever from a serial interface... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 21 14:42:43 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 20:42:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Sep 20, 10 04:18:17 pm Message-ID: > > 1) You have ot dispmantle the meter to change the battery=2C and it's=20 > > assembeled with self-tapping screws going into the plastic case. I don't= > =20 > > know how many insertions they will stand. > >=20 > ---snip--- > =20 > Ahh > Something I know that Tony doesn't. There are many thingd you know and I don't, but this is not one of them ;-) > I work with a lot of things that are wood and > have screws that=2C if screwed in and out too many times=2C > will end up with holes that don't hold the screws any more. > Similar problem to the plastic and self tapping screws. > I was shown a trick by an old wood worker years ago > to keep from cutting new threads. > You place the screw into the hole and while holding light > pressure=2C rotate it backwards with the screw driver. > At one point in rotation=2C it will kind of pop down. I don't > know how else to describe this but it is a feel thing. It's very distinctive when you know what to feel for... I didn't mention it because I thought it was well-known and it's something I do without thinking about it. In the same way that I always tightne the screws evenly in a diagonal pattern (as one manual put it 'like torquing down the cylinder head on an engine) even when it's not strictly necessary. Or the faxct that I know the diffeence between Phillips and Pozidriv and use the right screwdriver. > Then=2C screw the screw in. It will now follow the old threads. > On the plastic with thread cutting screws=2C use very light > touch and carefully screw in. It will bind if not aligned well. > Of course=2C if the hole has already been abused many times=2C > this doesn't work as well. However, even with this trick, there is still some wear when you insert and rtemve the screw. You'll get more insertion/revmoval cycles if you avoid recutting the thread each time, but it may not be that many. Personally, if I am going to spend the money and get a high-end instrument, I would expect it to be made well.. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 21 14:17:09 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 20:17:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: WTD: Clarion/JPI TopSpeed C (for Psion SIBO SDK) In-Reply-To: <20100920141110.D13041@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Sep 20, 10 02:15:40 pm Message-ID: > > On Mon, 20 Sep 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > The only problem was, I didn't have an C mount lens caps. And they seem > > to be very hard to get. In the end, I bought some brass rod and cut the > > theads msyelf (32tpi is trivial to cut on a lathe with an 8 tpi leadscrew > > :-)). > > If you are looking for C-mount rear lens caps, they are, > indeed hard to find. As of coures are body caps.. > BUT, eBay has a lot of cheap 5mm C-mount extension tubes > ("C-mount to CS-mount adapter") Put a 1" diameter thin disk > (such as, or thinner than, a USA quarter) into one of the > extension tubes, and you have a C-mount rear lens cap, > or C-mount body cap Neat... Probably whicher and cheaper than buying a length of 1.25" brass rod, turning it to size, cutting yhe threads, etc. But not as much fun... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 21 14:22:46 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 20:22:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <20100920141820.C13041@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Sep 20, 10 02:18:56 pm Message-ID: > > On Mon, 20 Sep 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > 1) You have ot dispmantle the meter to change the battery, and it's > > assembeled with self-tapping screws going into the plastic case. I don't > > know how many insertions they will stand. > > Can you drill them out, and install threaded inserts, to then use machine > screws? Yes, I could do, easily. And if I manage to get a replacemnt displayu and the self-tapped holes doen't last, I may well do that. But if I buy a new, expensive, multimter, I don't want to have to modify it. The Fl;uke 85 cost around 5 times as much as a no-name meter with the same specifications on paper. Yes, the Fluke is probably more accurate, But it should also be better built, and I am not convinced it is. Since I was prepared to pay for a Fluke origianlly, it should be obvious that the price was not the primary consideration in choosing a meter. In particualr, had it been, say, $20 more to cover the cost of having tapped bushes, etc, I would not have worried. As I mentioned a couple of weeks ago, I recently bought the new Big Trak toy. This is assembled by self-tapping screws going into the plastic -- which is what I'd expect in a toy. But the battery cover, the part that the average owner has to remove and replace many times, is fitted with machine screrws into tapped bushes. Now, if they can do that in a cheap toy, they darn well should do it in an expensice measuring instrument. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 21 15:02:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 21:02:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: from "Shoppa, Tim" at Sep 20, 10 08:02:21 pm Message-ID: > > Personally I enjoy a big Simpson 260-dash-whatever. > > The Triplett 630 is in the same league. > > Both have been in production (in one variant or another) since before WWII. OR over here the Avo Model 8 (which went out of production a couple of months back, it's been around for 50 years or so). But those are analogue instruemnts. And while I have no problem using one (I do use an AVO model 8, and a cheapo analogue meter quite often), there are things that hte digital meter does better. I really like having both on my bench. > The RCA Senior Voltohmysts I love for their fashion sense but unless I need= > VTVM class input impedances, I'd prefer the Simpson or Triplett. > > In terms of used Flukes, I highly recommend any used 77-series unit. You ca= > n critique the designs because of what you saw as failings of your Fluke 85= > , but believe me, the LCD display on any Fluke LCD DMM will be far more dur= > able than the faceplate on my Simpson 260 or Triplett 630. I don;t think mine failed because it was dropped or anything like that. There is no evidence of damage ot the glass. I think the seal must have failed from old age. Which could affect any old meter. Baically, there are 3 things I don't like abotu the Fluke : 1 The self-tapping screws you have to remove the change the battery (seems to be a 'cheap' mechanical design, and such penny-pinching in an expensive instrument is a very good way to get me to go elsewhere) 2 The mode switch design was unreliable (IMHO a bad biece of electronic design) 3 A lot of custom parts and spares are unobtainable. If I picked up a FLuke 77 or 79, there is no gaurantee that I would be able to get any spares for it. WHich considering the large number of custom parts worries me. > > At the very low end, in the $3 to $5 range there are "disposable" DMM's ava= > ilable at discount stores here in the US. They are not a joy to use but the= > y do mostly work. I've yet to see one witha fast enough continuity beeper. I want to be able to stroke the probe along a row of pins at a reasonable speed and have iot beep if there's a conneciton. I looked at the chepa meters in a Maplin shop, and not one met my requirements (even discounting the build quality). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 21 15:08:36 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 21:08:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: from "Charles Dickman" at Sep 20, 10 09:08:34 pm Message-ID: > > On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 5:01 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > As all of us who do hardware repairs know, a multimeter is an essential > > piece of test equipment. > > > > Agreed and I like the Fluke meters. I have one personally and I insist on > them professionally. As do a lot of people. I used to, before this episode... The Fluke 85 cost me around 5 times as much as a no-name meter of comparable specificaitons (on paper). For that I would expect it to be better designed, better built, and better supports. So far I am not convinced of any of those :-( > > It's totally black for half the > > height, I asusem the liquid crystal material has leaked out (although the > > glass is not obviously cracked or broken). > > > Something that I have seen on multiple occasions with Fluke meters is a > problem with the conductive polymer bridge between the circuit board and the > LCD glass. Usually pressing on the case in the right spot makes the display > normal. Sure, seen that many times. Bad 'zebra strip' connections are common on old LCD displays. My fluke suffered from this from time to time, in fact when I changed the battery most times I would unclip the display cover, lift out hte dispaly and zebra strips and clean them. But bad connections do not cause unsgmeented areas of the display to go black enve when the power is off ... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 21 15:10:22 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 21:10:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Diablo 30 disks and failure In-Reply-To: from "Peter C. Wallace" at Sep 20, 10 06:30:39 pm Message-ID: > Didn't the Perq scavenger have a vulture cursor? I vaguely remember that. Indeed it does. Called an' aasvogel' by a mad friend of mine who liked the 3 common (?) words starting with 'aa' :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 21 15:15:25 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 21:15:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: DiscFerret -- PCBs have arrived In-Reply-To: <4C98114F.7060106@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Sep 21, 10 02:58:39 am Message-ID: > - Soldering quality. The antenna on the LX8 came desoldered. > Predictably, the operating range went from a few feet to about six > inches. Fixed by disassembling it (lots of plastic clips!) and > resoldering part of the RF section. > Waht's the betting the RoHS directive has soemthing to do with this? I am not convincd that lead-free solder is really reliable at the best of times, I am certianly convinced that using lead-free solder at the temperature for lead/tin stuff leads to major problems... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 21 15:46:38 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 21:46:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple II Killer App In-Reply-To: <328CCFD359FB4250B7E95B2035F91F5D@RodsDevSystem> from "Rod Smallwood" at Sep 21, 10 11:29:36 am Message-ID: > Visicalc also ran on Apple Lisa, Atari. IBM PC and Commodore PET. And many more besides.. I have a Visicalc ROM module in my HP75C handheld, for example. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 21 15:51:42 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 21:51:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4C98BE85.3010304@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 21, 10 10:17:41 am Message-ID: > > On 9/20/10 8:02 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > > In terms of used Flukes, I highly recommend any used 77-series unit. You can critique the designs because of what you saw as failings of your Fluke 85, but believe me, the LCD display on any Fluke LCD DMM will be far more durable than the faceplate on my Simpson 260 or Triplett 630. > > > > At the very low end, in the $3 to $5 range there are "disposable" DMM's available at discount stores here in the US. They are not a joy to use but they do mostly work. > > I've evaluated five or six of these. The accuracy and stability of > these things, especially in the face of temperature variations, is utter > crap. Don't ever adjust a +5V supply in a PDP-11 using one of these. ;) > Some of these were tested as being 15% off, measuring nearly six volts > from a (very tightly calibrated) 5V supply! Ouch. Good enough reason fro me not to conider one (since adjusting PSUs is something I do need to do :-)). I don't require a very high accuracy, but I would expect better than 115%. Sounds like these meters are designed for people who thin that becuase it shows 4 digits, it must be accurate... > Buying cheap multimeters (or any other tool, really) is a false > economy. My daily-use handheld DMM is an original Fluke 77 (no suffix) 'I am not rich enough to buy cheap tools' :-) As I have said many times. But equally, if you buy an expensive tool it should be worth the money. Most times it is. As I have said, I didn't objerct to the fact that the FLuke was at least 5 times the price of a cheap meter with similar paper specifications. But I do object if what I get isn't much better than the cheap version. > that I stole from work so long ago that I don't mind mentioning it here. > ;) I've had it for almost twenty years, and it was well-used when I got > it. It works as if it were brand new. As did my 85 (origianl version, no suffix) until a couple of days ago. Just needed batteries every so often and the occasional cleaning fo trhe zebra strip. Perhaps I was unlucky that the display died, but... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 21 15:28:20 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 21:28:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4C9817A7.7060803@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Sep 21, 10 03:25:43 am Message-ID: > > On 20/09/10 22:01, Tony Duell wrote: > > Given that I need the standard functions only (including a good > > continuity tester!), don't need excessive accuracy, and would like to b= > e > > able to fix it if anything goes wrong, does anyone have any > > recomendatins? I am not conviced I should buy another Fluke, BTW. > > I was going to suggest the Fluke 25 or 27 -- these can be had for about=20 > =A320 to =A330, do all the basics (current to 10A, voltage to about 750V,= > =20 > resistance to 10M) and are ruggedised, so pretty difficult to break. Put=20 > it this way: if you drop it on your foot, expect a trip to A&E. I assume those are E-bay prices? Or is there somewhere else I should be looking? As I mentioend, I don;'t think my 85 failed due to external impact. It wasn't dropped. Nothing fell on it. Yes, it was in a tool drawer, with fairly small tools in boxes. Not in a tool box with hammers, etc. I don;t think a ruggedised version would have helped. > > If you want a true fix-it-yourself meter and can live with a bench DMM,=20 While a bench DMM would be nice _too_, at this point I am looking for somehting I can easily carry about, use in the field, etc. And _old_ HP DMM would be nice (either BCD or GPIB interface, etc). But they sell for excessisve prices on E-bay, even when they are 40 years old. Yes, I could repair them (all TTL, etc), but... > If you're after modern, shiny and new, the Agilent U1251A and U1251B are=20 > nice. Really, REALLY nice. Big display, 4.5-digit 50,000 count, true-RMS=20 > voltage to 1kV, current to 10A, resistance to 500Megohms, capacitance,=20 > diode check and continuity. Also does temperature measurement (internal=20 > sensor or external K-type thermocouple) and data-logging with=20 > RS232-over-infrared output, which is handy. I've been using it to track=20 > reflow profiles during SMD soldering tests. Sounds very nice, but I'll bet it's not cheap :-). For that sort of thing I'd problaby use my HP3421 anyway... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 21 15:30:51 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 21:30:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <20100921023559.GJ21591@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Sep 20, 10 09:35:59 pm Message-ID: > I'm sure Nick will appreciate the offer... unfortunately, the one that's > in there is a 14-pin DIP. I'm not remembering now if I saw a manufacturers > mark on the package but I do see now that Fairchild made a single 709 in > a 14-pin DIP... Most of the time the 14 pin DIP has 6 pins on the ends (2 at one end, 4 at the other) unused, and the remaining 8 pins have the same conenctions as the 8 pin DIP (or the TO99 isf you spread out the leads appropriately). You should be able to fit an 8 pin op-amp onto that board (not original,but it preserces the circuit design and it is the sort of thing that would bave been done when the machine was in use). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 21 15:59:45 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 21:59:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <4C98C05A.5020300@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Sep 21, 10 07:25:30 am Message-ID: > The Alto monitor timing is pretty unique. The display is portrait, 606 Is 'pretty unique' like 'slightly pregnant' ? :-) > x 808 with > the high frequency scan from top to bottom. Overheating and > horizontal deflection > failures are very common in Alto monitors. The most common cause of > failure is that> > the horizontal width coil overheats and unsolders itself from the PC > board. Because the > horizontal scan occurs across the narrower dimension of the tube, a THis doesn't make sense to me. In the first part you're saying that th high frequency scna in the vertical one -- that is that it's like a normal monitor turned on its side. And they you talk about a width coil which to me would always be associated with the fsster scan (horizontal in anromal monitor), and yoy then say that it's the horizotnal scan on the shorter tube axis (OK, I get that, it's a portait monitor) here too. Can you tell me if the scan lines are horizontal or verticla here? FWIW, the PEEQ portrait monbitors have horizontal scan lines alont the shorter acixe of the screen. > lot of power is > dissipated in the width coil. It also burns up the paper tube it is > wound on, making > it impossible to adjust the width. I ended up rewinding a bunch of > them recently using > new coil forms and heavier wire. > > Horizonal and vertical drive are hardwired in the display hardware. > You won't get a > raster until the display microcode is loaded and running, though, and > you have a long > way to go before you're that far. Do you get syncpulses from the start? If so, at least things like the HV should be coming up[ in the monitor (check this...) If you are as insane as I am, you might make a little board with a clcok oscillator and timing chain on it (TTL, FPGA, whatever you are comfortable with) to genrate the sync pulses and some kind of fixed video (corsshatch, checkerboard, etc)(. Then use that to test the monitor. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 21 15:34:20 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 21:34:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <4C983186.8030605@comcast.net> from "Nick Allen" at Sep 20, 10 11:16:06 pm Message-ID: > Also, Eric Kudzin spent some time trying to fix the CRT, we are making > progress and as part of the testing we need to test a KNOWN WORKING > computer on the Alto monitor/crt. I have a PET 2001, we made a custom > cable (it "should" work), anyone know if the PET video out will work on > the Alto monitor? Since the Alto is a grpahics workstation with a fairly high resolution (I assume), I would guess the horizotnal scan rate of the monitor was much higher than the 15kHz used by the PET. In other words, I don't think it's going to work. Can you not use a 'scope or logic analuser to check that the Alto is giving out sync pulses and some kind of video? If it is, then you can use that to test the monitor. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 21 16:09:55 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 22:09:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <201009212009.o8LK9qqL010433@billY.EZWIND.NET> from "John Foust" at Sep 21, 10 03:08:08 pm Message-ID: > >Do you REALLY think that Tony does not know to turn back the screw to find > >the thread start??? > >Everybody that I have evr met who did NOT know to do that was under 30. > > When I read it, I was waiting for something tricky like slipping > in a bit of tissue paper to tighten up the hole. An old trick for moderately-sized self-tappers is a bit of insulation stripped off some hookup wire and put down the hole first :-) > >Harbor Freight puts them on sale for $3, or even $2 > >They are worth that much. > > Last flyer I saw, they were giving them away. And that's probalby more than they're worth ;-) -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 21 16:05:52 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 14:05:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <201009212009.o8LK9qqL010433@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <4C98BCEB.2040608@neurotica.com> <20100921111045.Y46522@shell.lmi.net> <201009212009.o8LK9qqL010433@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <20100921140107.L52364@shell.lmi.net> I really didn't intend that to sound as nasty as it did. On Tue, 21 Sep 2010, John Foust wrote: > When I read it, I was waiting for something tricky like slipping > in a bit of tissue paper to tighten up the hole. Strangely, people think that they've hit on a hot tip; also those who come up with joining plastic parts with cyano-acrylate (super-glue) and then running a soldering iron along the joint. > >Harbor Freight puts them on sale for $3, or even $2 > >They are worth that much. > Last flyer I saw, they were giving them away. So, they tried them out, and got a more realistic assessment of their value? I think that they are great to have around, and casually give away to those who don't even own a meter. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 16:19:09 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 16:19:09 -0500 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C99214D.8010006@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> Tony Duell wrote: >>> 1) You have ot dispmantle the meter to change the battery, and it's >>> assembeled with self-tapping screws going into the plastic case. I don't >>> know how many insertions they will stand. >> *if* you could fix yours, can you modify the case to make some form of hinged >> / clip-on battery compartment so that ceases to be an issue? It probably >> doesn't even have to be pretty, so long as it's functional. > > Possibly. The problem with doing this (and the switch mod you suggested) > is that I do use my mutlmeter on live mains stuff from time to time (not > suprisingly). Now, there is obviously no isolation between the inputs and > hte battery, which means the battery is 'live' when I am testing mains, > etc. And any modifications would have to ensure that the there were no > exposed live parts. Well, I'm not sure I'd want something that wasn't sealed anyway, just so dirt couldn't get in there. There's a little rubber strip around the battery cover on one of my meters, for instance. I just wonder if you could chop the part of the case that sits over the battery and somehow turn it into a removable battery cover... > I could probably pass the display off as a silhouette iamge of a > munntain range :-). Ahh, so the black portion is 'jagged' then? From your original description it sounded like a regular rectangular section corresponding to the lower half of the display, which did seem more like a driver-type fault. Something more irregular does seem more like a broken LCD :-( > Unless I can get the right part somehow -- and Fluke can no longer supply > it -- I am stuck. Maybe try the local Freecycle list? Given the population density around you, I expect there's a healthy nearby list, and such a meter's the sort of thing someone might have lurking in their loft that they'd completely forgotten about :-) From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Sep 21 16:25:04 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 22:25:04 +0100 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > FLuke was at least 5 times the price of a cheap meter with similar > paper specifications. But I do object if what I get isn't much > better than the > cheap version. That's a bit unfair on the Fluke: it might have been quite a bit better than my Rolson quite-a-lot-of-functions multimeter (good enough for continuity tests and fiddling with the car). Your complaints are that swapping the battery would eventually lead to a failure which could easily have been prevented by better design (actually the Rolson might win there :-)) and that the LCD display failed through old age (10p says the Rolson won't last that long despite the light usage it sees). I cannot really comment on the accuracy of my two cheap and one not-so-cheap (but free to me) meters, other than to say that they all matched to within one percent (and also matched the equally uncalibrated PSU) but I bet I could send my branded one off to be calibrated with a straight face (if I could afford it) but the Rolson would cost more in postage alone than the meter did in the first place :-) So do you have a cheap meter against which to compare? Antonio From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Sep 21 16:15:59 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 16:15:59 -0500 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <20100921140107.L52364@shell.lmi.net> References: <4C98BCEB.2040608@neurotica.com> <20100921111045.Y46522@shell.lmi.net> <201009212009.o8LK9qqL010433@billY.EZWIND.NET> <20100921140107.L52364@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201009212127.o8LLRkZ7013917@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 04:05 PM 9/21/2010, Fred Cisin wrote: >Strangely, people think that they've hit on a hot tip; also those who come >up with joining plastic parts with cyano-acrylate (super-glue) and then >running a soldering iron along the joint. What does that do? Heat helps it? - John From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 21 17:03:05 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 15:03:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100921143958.R52364@shell.lmi.net> > > Can you drill them out, and install threaded inserts, to then use machine > > screws? On Tue, 21 Sep 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > Yes, I could do, easily. And if I manage to get a replacemnt displayu and > the self-tapped holes doen't last, I may well do that. > But if I buy a new, expensive, multimter, I don't want to have to modify > it. I'm surprised! I have often bought things that would be what I want AFTER modifications. Sometimes, I modify newly purchased stuff as soon as I have confirmed that it works. Admittedly, most of those mods are TRIVIAL, such as adding an external power connector. A few hours after I got my first TRS80, I put in an RCA jack for the video. And, immediately after the expansion interface arrived, as soon as I tested it, I populated it, retested it, cut a notch for the power cord to go through instead of around, and then put in 1/4-20 threaded inserts into the bottom of it, an outlet strip, and the TRS80, and bolted them to a scrap of thin marine plywood. (It's good to NOT flex the connecting cable, . . .) Back when I was working on cars (70s), I got a good deal on a used Snap-On meter. I connected it, turned it on, then disconnected it, replaced the proprietary 9V battery and holder with "normal" transistor radio battery, put threaded inserts in place of the screws into plastic, and made a gasket for the case. > Now, if they can do that in a cheap toy, they darn well should do it in > an expensice measuring instrument. . . . and it is STRANGE that they hadn't done so! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 21 17:23:29 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 15:23:29 -0700 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: References: from "Shoppa, Tim" at Sep 20, 10 08:02:21 pm, Message-ID: <4C98CDF1.5449.15D975C@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Sep 2010 at 21:02, Tony Duell wrote: > I looked at the chepa meters in a Maplin shop, and not one met my > requirements (even discounting the build quality). A couple of years ago, I received a Mastech 8284 DMM as a promotional item ("buy $50 or more of our stuff and we'll throw in a meter"). After awhile, I found myself using it more than my Fluke 77. The accuracy is very good on mine, the display is large (with a backlight), the continuity checker is fast, and it seems to be well- made, right down to having brass bushings on the battery compartment screws (and you don't have to remove the rubber "bib" to get at them). http://www.p-mastech.com/products/04_dm/ms8264.html The battery compartment is pretty decent--it's sized to exactly fit a 9V battery with no foam to keep it in place. Connections to the terminals are via spring contacts, making it easy to change. It's not an autoranger like the Fluke, but I'm not sure that I care for the autoranging feature. Yes, there are some things that I don't care for; I wish the buttons were better engineered, but all in all, it's way better than the Harbor Freqight DMM. Another one I've used for many years is one branded by JDR--decent enough, but no continuity buzzer. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Sep 21 17:39:13 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 23:39:13 +0100 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C993411.5020500@philpem.me.uk> On 21/09/10 21:28, Tony Duell wrote: >> I was going to suggest the Fluke 25 or 27 -- these can be had for about=20 >> =A320 to =A330, do all the basics (current to 10A, voltage to about 750V,= >> =20 >> resistance to 10M) and are ruggedised, so pretty difficult to break. Put=20 >> it this way: if you drop it on your foot, expect a trip to A&E. > > I assume those are E-bay prices? Or is there somewhere else I should be > looking? Yeah, those prices are about right for ebay. Stewart of Reading usually have them too, but at a considerably higher price (?45 last time I checked). > As I mentioend, I don;'t think my 85 failed due to external impact. It > wasn't dropped. Nothing fell on it. Yes, it was in a tool drawer, with > fairly small tools in boxes. Not in a tool box with hammers, etc. I don;t > think a ruggedised version would have helped. Aye, by the sounds of it the seal on the LCD failed, and over time the liquid crystal material has evaporated or leaked out of the display, and has now failed completely. >> If you're after modern, shiny and new, the Agilent U1251A and U1251B are=20 >> nice. Really, REALLY nice. Big display, 4.5-digit 50,000 count, true-RMS=20 [ ... ] > Sounds very nice, but I'll bet it's not cheap :-). ?300 ish from Farnell. I'm a regular customer at the Farnell trade counter (enough so that I can remember my account number off the top of my head, and a couple of the staff recognise me on site), where they have a little "bargain corner". Usually it's ex-demo kit, slightly damaged (scuff or scrape? half the price!) or stuff that's been sent back, repaired by the manufacturer, and for whatever reason isn't suitable for sending back to the customer. Off the top of my head, I've ended up with: - Endless spools of wire-wrap and equipment wire - a JST crimp connector kit (butt splices, Faston blades and sockets, etc. including crimp tool) for ?20 -- discounted because the plastic tray was slightly damaged (solution: Araldite and a few chunks of FR4). - the Agilent DMM (?50). Someone tried to "fix" it, and put it back together wrong. Fixed the switch, chucked in a new PP3 and some fuses, good to go. I've since bought the IR Data Link and Temperature Measurement kits for it. - GALEP-4 EPROM programmer (?20). Seems to be a customer return. No PSU or cable, but it's just a standard 1:1 M-M DB25 anyway (PC parallel port). 40 pin Aries ZIF socket, pindriver based, does EPROMs, Flash, GALs, AMD/Vantis PALCEs, MCUs... I don't think it can read the Hitachi 6803 variant on the Floating Logic Board (read: A/D board) in the Solartron, but you can't have everything... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 21 18:26:33 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 17:26:33 -0600 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: References: <4C98BCEB.2040608@neurotica.com> <20100921111045.Y46522@shell.lmi.net> <4C9902A8.1070003@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4C993F29.8060104@jetnet.ab.ca> Gene Buckle wrote: >> > > Bummer. You might be more interested on Eve's Treatise on Apple Harvesting. No I only like green apples ... > g. Still I think a good anlog meter, would still have its place as I find autoranging can take too long to find a value if you are checking power supplies. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Sep 21 20:29:11 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 18:29:11 -0700 Subject: DIP packages (was Re: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto) In-Reply-To: References: <4C983186.8030605@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4C995BE7.1010605@brouhaha.com> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Well, if you can't find a (reasonably-priced) 14-pinner, the pinout patterns > of the 8 and 14-pin DIP versions are the same, so an 8-pin is a drop-in > replacement for the the 14-pin. > Begs the question of why the 14-pin version was ever produced, > machine insertion/handling perhaps. Perhaps. Also the 14-pin DIP was probably invented and standardized (TO-116) several years before the 8-pin DIP. The 14-pin DIP appears to date back to 1965 or earlier. I don't have any information suggesting when the 8-pin DIP appeared. Was the ?A709 the first monolithic op-amp offered in a DIP package? The earlier ?A702 was available in a 14-pin DIP by 1976, but I don't think it was offered in a DIP at its introduction. Fairchild had one part that was in a 36-pin DIP in 1969. I've never seen that used for any other part. Early on (late 1960s, early-to-mid 1970s), some of the Japanese semiconductor vendors such as NEC seemed to like the 42-pin DIP. From evan at snarc.net Tue Sep 21 22:30:22 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 23:30:22 -0400 Subject: Maker Faire Message-ID: <4C99784E.2020408@snarc.net> MARCH's booth for Maker Faire this weekend will be indoors at the main venue (New York Hall of Science). Our maker # is 3641 if any cctalkers are looking for us. I'm told we will be inside a modern computer lab. Saturday night we'll be eating/drinking; all are welcome to join us. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 22:36:26 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 23:36:26 -0400 Subject: Maker Faire In-Reply-To: <4C99784E.2020408@snarc.net> References: <4C99784E.2020408@snarc.net> Message-ID: On 9/21/10, Evan Koblentz wrote: > MARCH's booth for Maker Faire this weekend will be indoors at the main > venue (New York Hall of Science). Our maker # is 3641 if any cctalkers > are looking for us. I'm told we will be inside a modern computer lab. > Saturday night we'll be eating/drinking; all are welcome to join us. I'm #4518 and will be outside at the 3D Printing Village tent next to the Makerbot tent. See you there! -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 21 22:54:09 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 20:54:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <201009212127.o8LLRkZ7013917@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <4C98BCEB.2040608@neurotica.com> <20100921111045.Y46522@shell.lmi.net> <201009212009.o8LK9qqL010433@billY.EZWIND.NET> <20100921140107.L52364@shell.lmi.net> <201009212127.o8LLRkZ7013917@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <20100921205122.M52364@shell.lmi.net> > >up with joining plastic parts with cyano-acrylate (super-glue) and then > >running a soldering iron along the joint. On Tue, 21 Sep 2010, John Foust wrote: > What does that do? Heat helps it? Welding the joint at the surface. Even that shallow weld substantially reduces the stress on the joint. Obviously only suitable for SOME types of plastics. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Sep 22 00:38:36 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 22:38:36 -0700 Subject: DIP packages (was Re: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto) In-Reply-To: <4C995BE7.1010605@brouhaha.com> References: <4C983186.8030605@comcast.net> <4C995BE7.1010605@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <2d98999e638e7e4c5b6fdf9c31136763@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Sep 21, at 6:29 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Brent Hilpert wrote: > > Well, if you can't find a (reasonably-priced) 14-pinner, the pinout > patterns > > of the 8 and 14-pin DIP versions are the same, so an 8-pin is a > drop-in > > replacement for the the 14-pin. > > > Begs the question of why the 14-pin version was ever produced, > > machine insertion/handling perhaps. > > Perhaps. Also the 14-pin DIP was probably invented and standardized > (TO-116) several years before the 8-pin DIP. The 14-pin DIP appears to > date back to 1965 or earlier. I don't have any information suggesting > when the 8-pin DIP appeared. Was the ?A709 the first monolithic op-amp > offered in a DIP package? The earlier ?A702 was available in a 14-pin > DIP by 1976, but I don't think it was offered in a DIP at its > introduction. Good point. My subjective experience was that cans predominated for such devices into the early 70's and then 8-pin DIPs replaced them. The 1966 Fairchild catalog shows the 709 offered in only can and 10-pin flat-pak, even though 14 & 16-pin DIPs are listed for other devices. In support of your suggestion, the 1969 Motorola databook shows the 709 offered in can, flat-pak and 14-pin DIP. There is no mention of an 8-pin DIP package anywhere in this 1969 Moto book, they do show up by 1973 (another Moto book), including for the 709 and 741. BTW, in the 1966 catalog, Fairchild states: The Dual In-Line - the most significant contribution to microcircuit packaging in recent years - is a Fairchild concept. > Fairchild had one part that was in a 36-pin DIP in 1969. I've never > seen that used for any other part. > > Early on (late 1960s, early-to-mid 1970s), some of the Japanese > semiconductor vendors such as NEC seemed to like the 42-pin DIP. From jws at jwsss.com Tue Sep 21 01:32:47 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 23:32:47 -0700 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <4C983186.8030605@comcast.net> References: <4C983186.8030605@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4C98518F.3030500@jwsss.com> Chips manufactured in the day of gold plated DIP leads are cheap at $39.00. Nearly unobtainium. I can check with some collectors, but I know that the subject just came up involving some other IC's of similar vintage, and I suspect that these are cheap. Hopefully someone has some in their junk if you can get them for less. On 9/20/2010 9:16 PM, Nick Allen wrote: > Need to find the 14 pin opamp (as I am also a purest and want it to > be ORIGINAL), found a pair on ebay: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330471900022&rvr_id=143156802920&crlp=1_263602_263622&UA=%3F*F%3F&GUID=94213f4c1260a0269d971e47ff8e9d4d&itemid=330471900022%24&ff4=263602_263622 > > WAY to expensive, and I only need 1, anyone have one they might be > able to sell me, or able to find a cheaper source? > I didn't look, but if this is the part that is dropping your 15 v to 5 v and it already was failed, buying two isn't such a bad move while you can get them. Jim From chrise at pobox.com Tue Sep 21 06:13:51 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 06:13:51 -0500 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: References: <4C961C1A.1070600@comcast.net> <20100920011407.GC21591@n0jcf.net> <4a1fc98c909ce04df6e5c6935681bda8@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20100921111351.GA15573@n0jcf.net> On Monday (09/20/2010 at 10:10PM -0400), William Donzelli wrote: > > If the 709 was a TO-99 (can) package and you need to replace it, I have lots > > of 741's in TO-99. > > I have new Motorola MC1709Gs in stock. That's what the part was! That would be what he needs. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From bqt at softjar.se Tue Sep 21 06:38:19 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 13:38:19 +0200 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C98992B.3000705@softjar.se> Richard wrote: > In article , Ethan Dicks writes: >> > I haven't seen a VT525 in the wild, but now I know what to do to show >> > it off if I do get one (but now I'm also wondering what it would take >> > to get what you have working on a Tektronix 4105 since I have a couple >> > of those). > > It shouldn't take much with a proper termcap/terminfo entry for the > 4105. If you need escape codes, consult the 4105 programmer's > reference on bitsavers: > Whoa! I know you mean well, Richard, but you are making huge assumptions here, which are very wrong. First of all, you assume that termcap can actually do this stuff, which it cannot. Termcap have no clue about user defined fonts. Termcap is rather limited in some ways. There are plenty of things I can do with a terminal that cannot be done properly within termcap. But even adding the word "termcap" here, is making a big assumption about my software. In fact, my software is not using termcap, so adding information to the termcap database would not help at all. Even assuming this is a Unix system is making a mistake. It is, in fact not. And, when all that is said and done, do you really think that the tektronix terminals aren't already in the termcap database? In fact, they are... (as are just about any terminal you ever never heard of) And to make a long story short - the software I'm talking about is my Z-machine implementation, written in MACRO-11 for RSX, RT-11 and RSTS/E. It can (should) handle all V1 to V8 games, but it do not handle sound, nor full graphic games. All the rest should be fine, and it should work with most any terminal, although some fancy stuff is not possible with simple terminals. If anyone wants to take it for a test drive, just telnet mim.update.uu.se, log in as guest/guest, and when you have logged in, type ZEM , or ZEM /LI (to list which games there are). And this is a publicly available RSX system. Johnny From nick.allen at comcast.net Tue Sep 21 10:29:15 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 10:29:15 -0500 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <4C98C05A.5020300@bitsavers.org> References: <4C98C05A.5020300@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4C98CF4B.5090505@comcast.net> Thanks Al, We are doing component testing of all the electronics in the monitor first, before we do any further testing with the actual alto. We do see the tube glowing, also the transistors all seem to be working. We are however NOT getting any static on the screen, I don't think the flyback is outputting high voltage, we are working our way backwards to find the culprit. From nick.allen at comcast.net Tue Sep 21 12:10:47 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 12:10:47 -0500 Subject: Well I went ahead a did it... The Multics/Honeywell panel is now on eBay Message-ID: <4C98E717.2000909@comcast.net> I had to do it, please understand =) I am just grateful I was able to share it with everyone at the Midwest Vintage Computer Festival. I live in a 2 bedroom condo with my family of 5, and the Alto already takes up plenty of the living room. Plus with my main initiative being repairing the Alto, I will need some finances to fund the project. Jim, I know you expressed much interest in the panel, if it fails to sell at the starting bid I will ensure we work out a swap as previously talked about =) If anyone is interested in the auction link, here it is: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270638335277 From elazzerini at interfree.it Tue Sep 21 15:09:36 2010 From: elazzerini at interfree.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 22:09:36 +0200 Subject: microcornucipia magazine issues Message-ID: Hi at all, time ago i inserted some issues i scan. Below i report again their links: http://web.tiscali.it/enrico.lazzerini/MICRO_CORNUCOPIA_No.01_Jul_1981.pdf http://web.tiscali.it/enrico.lazzerini/MICRO_CORNUCOPIA_No.02_Sep_1981.pdf http://web.tiscali.it/enrico.lazzerini/MICRO_CORNUCOPIA_No.03_Dec_1981.pdf http://web.tiscali.it/enrico.lazzerini/MICRO_CORNUCOPIA_No.14_Oct_1983.pdf http://web.tiscali.it/enrico.lazzerini/MICRO_CORNUCOPIA_No.16_Feb_1984.pdf My request are: a. is there anybody had already scan other issues or would be able to devide the job to scan other issues to save time? b. is there anybody who could be User?s disks as told in the Magazine? c. is there anybody who still have any other stuff on BigBoard 1 or 2? My website: http://elazzerini.interfree.it I hope to can add other useful info soon. Regards from Italy Enrico From wgungfu at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 17:12:21 2010 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 17:12:21 -0500 Subject: How to prevent yellowing of equipment on display In-Reply-To: <4C98883A.20423.4D4436@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B76AEEC-7AB2-4074-ABD8-3B2A817EC805@voysys.com> <4C974B6C.6404.9DE004@cclist.sydex.com> <4C98883A.20423.4D4436@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Chuck - the yellowing has to do with a breakdown of the flame retardent in the plastic. The bromine free readicals involved in the breakdown look for Oxygen to attach themselves to. Per the chemical engineer that came up with the Retrobrite process: "Retr0bright reverses the yellowing process, it's not a permanent cure. If the surface of the plastic is still open to the air, it will yellow again, as the bromine free radical reaction is reversible (otherwise, we wouldn't be able to reverse it... ) The permanent fix it is to coat it with clear satin acrylic lacquer to seal the surface off from the air. No oxygen, no oxidation; simple, really......" The chemical reaction of the breakdown process as well as the recovery process are well documented at the Retrobrite wiki: http://retr0bright.wikispaces.com/ Hope that answers you question. I've used the process on several items myself about two years ago (Apple III case, white bally computer case) to great success. So far no degradation of the plastic, and no re-yellowing. Marty On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 12:26 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 20 Sep 2010 at 16:48, Martin Goldberg wrote: > >> It's usually the oxygen that's involved in the breakdown. ?After >> Retrobrite, it's recommended to spray them with a light sealant like >> satin acrylic lacquer. ?(Note that this is not a heavy paint on >> lacquer like people think of with lacquering a piece of furniture). >> Same thing used in some art communities to protect paper projects, >> paintings, etc. > > Do you have a reference for this? ?The literature that I've seen > pretty much faults the stabilizers and plasticizers as well as > outgassing of same. > > I'd think that if a simple lacquer coating worked, museums could save > a lot of money by not pursuing grants and holding conferences, > publishing papers and books and generally agonizing about the > subject. > > FWIW, I've used a product called "Midas Finish Seal Lacquer" marketed > by Rio Grande (the jewelers' supply house). ?It's primarily used to > seal jewelry finishes for display and can be easily removed. > > --Chuck > > > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Sep 22 01:29:02 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 23:29:02 -0700 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <4C983186.8030605@comcast.net> References: <4C983186.8030605@comcast.net> Message-ID: <8ce082693ff9582425f8a04c2d642376@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Sep 20, at 9:16 PM, Nick Allen wrote: > Need to find the 14 pin opamp (as I am also a purest and want it to > be ORIGINAL), found a pair on ebay: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? > ViewItem&item=330471900022&rvr_id=143156802920&crlp=1_263602_263622&UA= > %3F*F%3F&GUID=94213f4c1260a0269d971e47ff8e9d4d&itemid=330471900022%24&f > f4=263602_263622 > > WAY to expensive, and I only need 1, anyone have one they might be > able to sell me, or able to find a cheaper source? > http://lh6.ggpht.com/_lkddKjPsPFU/TJgv61uSNMI/AAAAAAAABhM/-n0SEds-o5g/ > _1020935.JPG With a blown 709 to replace, you might find this interesting, an interview with Dave Fullagar, the designer of the 741, following 709 designer Bob Widlar's departure from Fairchild: http://www.edn.com/article/472246- Voices_Dave_Fullagar_analog_IC_designer_and_entrepreneur.php Extract: My assigned task when I joined Fairchild R&D in 1966 was to design the successor to the ?A709. ... However the biggest problems with the 709 were its idiosyncrasies, not its specifications: It was tricky to stabilize, there was no short-circuit protection, and it would latch-up and self-destruct in nanoseconds. ... -- If op-amp history is too off-topic for people, there is also some mention of the development of those nifty Maxim RS232 drivers. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Sep 22 05:18:04 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 04:18:04 -0600 Subject: How to prevent yellowing of equipment on display In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 21 Sep 2010 17:12:21 -0500. Message-ID: In article , Martin Goldberg writes: > Hope that answers you question. I've used the process on several > items myself about two years ago (Apple III case, white bally computer > case) to great success. So far no degradation of the plastic, and no > re-yellowing. Did you apply the acrylic lacquer? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 22 08:00:22 2010 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 06:00:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <547162.54130.qm@web114606.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> > > When is the demo on how to suck eggs? > > Too dangerous due to risk of choking, lacerations from > broken shells, salmonella etc. etc. And if you're in a combat zone, perhaps you'd get a Purple Heart. True story as related in Reader's Digest Humor in Uniform section: An Army cook in Vietnam got an egg shell fragment in his eye while making scrambled eggs. The albumin stuck it to his eyeball so he had to see the unit medic to get it removed. Some time later, he was notified that he was receiving a Purple Heart. The reason cited was "shell fragment in eye." Apparently, someone was just glancing through through the undoubtedly numerous medical treatment records to discern who to present the medals to and found his record with its deceptive entry. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 08:18:43 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 08:18:43 -0500 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4C98CDF1.5449.15D975C@cclist.sydex.com> References: from "Shoppa, Tim" at Sep 20, 10 08:02:21 pm, <4C98CDF1.5449.15D975C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C9A0233.8000009@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > It's not an autoranger like the Fluke, but I'm not sure that I care > for the autoranging feature. Always been curious about that; I don't like autoranging meters either - but I've never really worked out why. Maybe I just like knowing what a tool's going to do, without feeling like it's second-guessing me - but that logic probably doesn't really make much sense in a multimeter context :-) > branded by JDR--decent enough, but no continuity buzzer. I know that for at least one of the meters I had, the buzzer was on the lowest resistance range, rather than a separate function - so could be irritating in certain situations (I ended up adding a switch so I could disable the buzzer). My holy grail would be a meter where the test leads didn't auto-tangle on the bench as soon as my back was turned for more than five minutes ;-) cheers Jules From trag at io.com Wed Sep 22 09:46:41 2010 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 09:46:41 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40d694ae78e471c926ea2d5d7b521010.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> > Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 11:15:35 -0700 (PDT) > From: Fred Cisin > Somehow, the absolute basics of even working with threaded fasteners have > fallen from the educational system, and people are re-inventing basic > normal techniques. > > > When is the demo on how to suck eggs? My experience is that most folks don't know what one means when one uses an expression about sucking eggs. I thought everyone knew the, "Don't teach your grandmother..." expression, but apparently familiarity with it is kind of rare. At least around here. Jeff Walther From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Sep 22 10:09:32 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 08:09:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <40d694ae78e471c926ea2d5d7b521010.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> from Jeff Walther at "Sep 22, 10 09:46:41 am" Message-ID: <201009221509.o8MF9Wmr018236@floodgap.com> > > Somehow, the absolute basics of even working with threaded fasteners have > > fallen from the educational system, and people are re-inventing basic > > normal techniques. > > When is the demo on how to suck eggs? > > My experience is that most folks don't know what one means when one uses > an expression about sucking eggs. I thought everyone knew the, "Don't > teach your grandmother..." expression, but apparently familiarity with it > is kind of rare. At least around here. Don't teach granny about the expression involving granny sucking eggs? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- NO, I'M NOT AN ELITIST...WHY DO YOU ASK, PEASANT? -- Rusty Spoon ----------- From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 22 10:49:28 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 08:49:28 -0700 Subject: How to prevent yellowing of equipment on display In-Reply-To: References: <4B76AEEC-7AB2-4074-ABD8-3B2A817EC805@voysys.com>, <4C98883A.20423.4D4436@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4C99C318.19292.F4685@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Sep 2010 at 17:12, Martin Goldberg wrote: > Hope that answers you question. I've used the process on several > items myself about two years ago (Apple III case, white bally computer > case) to great success. So far no degradation of the plastic, and no > re-yellowing. Martin, I've followed the Retrobrite (forgive me for not using the "LEET" spelling) saga since nearly its inception. To date, I know of not a single museum conservationist who agrees wtih or uses the retrobrite process, even though all agree that plastics degradation is a serious problem. If the process were vetted by POPART, I would feel much better about it. Retrobrite also does not address the loss or breakdown of plasticizers (e.g. that Apple monitor that was spontaneously disintegrating. I also have a tape drive bezel that's behaving similarly). Nor does it address the breakdown in high-density structural polyurethane foam used on some enclosures. I submit that the problem with plastics is far more complex and problematical than the Retrobrite folks make it to be. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 22 10:53:24 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 08:53:24 -0700 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <40d694ae78e471c926ea2d5d7b521010.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> References: , <40d694ae78e471c926ea2d5d7b521010.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> Message-ID: <4C99C404.5482.12DFE8@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Sep 2010 at 9:46, Jeff Walther wrote: > My experience is that most folks don't know what one means when one > uses an expression about sucking eggs. I thought everyone knew the, > "Don't teach your grandmother..." expression, but apparently > familiarity with it is kind of rare. At least around here. ...and here I thought that everyone knew how to suck eggs. (a small hole in the opposite end of the shell to admit air makes the job much easier). Of course, with factory-farmed eggs, the risk of salmonella is always a factor. Bet my grandma didn't know about that one. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 22 10:55:46 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 11:55:46 -0400 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4C99C404.5482.12DFE8@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <40d694ae78e471c926ea2d5d7b521010.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> <4C99C404.5482.12DFE8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C9A2702.9030900@neurotica.com> On 9/22/10 11:53 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> My experience is that most folks don't know what one means when one >> uses an expression about sucking eggs. I thought everyone knew the, >> "Don't teach your grandmother..." expression, but apparently >> familiarity with it is kind of rare. At least around here. > > ...and here I thought that everyone knew how to suck eggs. (a small > hole in the opposite end of the shell to admit air makes the job much > easier) What I'm wondering is why anyone would WANT to. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Sep 22 11:05:03 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 11:05:03 -0500 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4C9A2702.9030900@neurotica.com> References: <40d694ae78e471c926ea2d5d7b521010.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> <4C99C404.5482.12DFE8@cclist.sydex.com> <4C9A2702.9030900@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201009221605.o8MG5HEo061830@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 10:55 AM 9/22/2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > What I'm wondering is why anyone would WANT to. Yeah, I thought everyone blew eggs. Then you have a cool empty nearly intact shell! - John From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 22 11:09:23 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 12:09:23 -0400 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <201009221605.o8MG5HEo061830@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <40d694ae78e471c926ea2d5d7b521010.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> <4C99C404.5482.12DFE8@cclist.sydex.com> <4C9A2702.9030900@neurotica.com> <201009221605.o8MG5HEo061830@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4C9A2A33.9080103@neurotica.com> On 9/22/10 12:05 PM, John Foust wrote: > At 10:55 AM 9/22/2010, Dave McGuire wrote: >> What I'm wondering is why anyone would WANT to. > > Yeah, I thought everyone blew eggs. Then you have a cool empty nearly intact shell! Umm, yeah, I suppose, but...for what purpose? Eggsperimentation? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Sep 22 11:15:26 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 12:15:26 -0400 Subject: Multimeter recomendations References: <40d694ae78e471c926ea2d5d7b521010.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> <4C99C404.5482.12DFE8@cclist.sydex.com> <4C9A2702.9030900@neurotica.com><201009221605.o8MG5HEo061830@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4C9A2A33.9080103@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3E55638D3152491C86CDCD64F4E9FE17@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 12:09 PM Subject: Re: Multimeter recomendations > On 9/22/10 12:05 PM, John Foust wrote: >> At 10:55 AM 9/22/2010, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> What I'm wondering is why anyone would WANT to. >> >> Yeah, I thought everyone blew eggs. Then you have a cool empty nearly >> intact shell! > > Umm, yeah, I suppose, but...for what purpose? Eggsperimentation? > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL For painted/decorated eggs that last forever and don't stink? From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 11:19:51 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 11:19:51 -0500 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4C99C404.5482.12DFE8@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <40d694ae78e471c926ea2d5d7b521010.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> <4C99C404.5482.12DFE8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C9A2CA7.6020200@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 22 Sep 2010 at 9:46, Jeff Walther wrote: > >> My experience is that most folks don't know what one means when one >> uses an expression about sucking eggs. I thought everyone knew the, >> "Don't teach your grandmother..." expression, but apparently >> familiarity with it is kind of rare. At least around here. > > ...and here I thought that everyone knew how to suck eggs. (a small > hole in the opposite end of the shell to admit air makes the job much > easier). Of course, with factory-farmed eggs, the risk of salmonella > is always a factor. Bet my grandma didn't know about that one. Philosophical question: is the casing an integral part of what it is to be an egg - and can you therefore suck the insides without sucking the shell, and still claim to be sucking an egg? (I think that's my most irrelevant and off-topic post to classiccmp ever ;) From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 22 11:17:55 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 12:17:55 -0400 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <3E55638D3152491C86CDCD64F4E9FE17@dell8300> References: <40d694ae78e471c926ea2d5d7b521010.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> <4C99C404.5482.12DFE8@cclist.sydex.com> <4C9A2702.9030900@neurotica.com><201009221605.o8MG5HEo061830@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4C9A2A33.9080103@neurotica.com> <3E55638D3152491C86CDCD64F4E9FE17@dell8300> Message-ID: <4C9A2C33.8000808@neurotica.com> On 9/22/10 12:15 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: >>>> What I'm wondering is why anyone would WANT to. >>> >>> Yeah, I thought everyone blew eggs. Then you have a cool empty nearly >>> intact shell! >> >> Umm, yeah, I suppose, but...for what purpose? Eggsperimentation? > > For painted/decorated eggs that last forever and don't stink? AHH! The light dawns! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Sep 22 11:53:45 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 11:53:45 -0500 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4C9A2A33.9080103@neurotica.com> References: <40d694ae78e471c926ea2d5d7b521010.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> <4C99C404.5482.12DFE8@cclist.sydex.com> <4C9A2702.9030900@neurotica.com> <201009221605.o8MG5HEo061830@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4C9A2A33.9080103@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201009221654.o8MGsCgQ065037@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 11:09 AM 9/22/2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > Umm, yeah, I suppose, but...for what purpose? Eggsperimentation? Decorations? Magic tricks? Cascarones? - John From db at db.net Wed Sep 22 12:23:31 2010 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 13:23:31 -0400 Subject: Stupid egg tricks was Re: Multimeter recomendations Message-ID: <20100922172331.GA24296@night.db.net> On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 11:53:45AM -0500, John Foust wrote: > At 11:09 AM 9/22/2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Umm, yeah, I suppose, but...for what purpose? Eggsperimentation? > > > Decorations? Magic tricks? Cascarones? Easter eggs. And not the software kind. > > - John - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From legalize at xmission.com Wed Sep 22 12:58:42 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 11:58:42 -0600 Subject: How to prevent yellowing of equipment on display In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 22 Sep 2010 08:49:28 -0700. <4C99C318.19292.F4685@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4C99C318.19292.F4685 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > I submit that the problem with plastics is far more complex and > problematical than the Retrobrite folks make it to be. Retrobrite only claims to deal with the yellowing due to the fire retardent additives; it makes no claims with regard to any of the other problems with plastics. I think for a nice looking museum acceptable display you're going to need to create replicas if you want to give the viewer an idea of what things looked like when they were first manufactured. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Sep 22 13:25:14 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 11:25:14 -0700 Subject: Cf. "eggs, sucking of, rationale for" [was RE: Multimeter recomendations] In-Reply-To: <4C9A2702.9030900@neurotica.com> References: , <40d694ae78e471c926ea2d5d7b521010.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> <4C99C404.5482.12DFE8@cclist.sydex.com> <4C9A2702.9030900@neurotica.com> Message-ID: From: Dave McGuire Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 8:56 AM On 9/22/10 11:53 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> ...and here I thought that everyone knew how to suck eggs. (a small >> hole in the opposite end of the shell to admit air makes the job much >> easier) > What I'm wondering is why anyone would WANT to. The practice far predates modern cooking regimina[1], and originally referred to the consumption of the eggs of wild birds. These are an excellent source of protein, as well as vitamin D, and easily eaten even by elders who have lost their teeth to the ravages of time (thus, "grandmother" in the saying in question). Since they are internally fragile, it is simpler to suck out the contents rather than opening the shell more completely. [1] Plural of "regimen". Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Sep 22 13:48:37 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 14:48:37 -0400 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <40d694ae78e471c926ea2d5d7b521010.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> References: <40d694ae78e471c926ea2d5d7b521010.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> Message-ID: <4C9A4F85.5080403@verizon.net> On 9/22/2010 10:46 AM, Jeff Walther wrote: > > My experience is that most folks don't know what one means when one uses > an expression about sucking eggs. I thought everyone knew the, "Don't > teach your grandmother..." expression, but apparently familiarity with it > is kind of rare. At least around here. > > Jeff Walther I'm not sure I've ever heard this before, and I usually make it a point to look these things up. but of course, wikipedia saves the day: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teaching_grandmother_to_suck_eggs :) Keith From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Sep 22 14:02:30 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 21:02:30 +0200 Subject: BSD 2.11 install tape needed Message-ID: <3d4aca2805e4c76eb6ae798021a50fe4.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hi, I was planning to convert all my RSX-11 & RT-11 RL02 disks to SIMH container files. And for that purpose I was planning to use 11/73, which did have BSD2.11 on it. 'Did' indeed, as the disk has gone to heaven. So' my question is if there is a kind soul who can provide me with a (copy) of the install tape. Postage and such can be paid for. Thanks, Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 22 14:03:29 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 12:03:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <40d694ae78e471c926ea2d5d7b521010.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> References: <40d694ae78e471c926ea2d5d7b521010.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> Message-ID: <20100922114825.S88355@shell.lmi.net> > > Somehow, the absolute basics of even working with threaded fasteners have > > fallen from the educational system, and people are re-inventing basic > > normal techniques. > > When is the demo on how to suck eggs? On Wed, 22 Sep 2010, Jeff Walther wrote: > My experience is that most folks don't know what one means when one uses > an expression about sucking eggs. I thought everyone knew the, "Don't > teach your grandmother..." expression, but apparently familiarity with it > is kind of rare. At least around here. True. But, . . . is there a correlation (non-causal) between those who do not know the old saying(s), and those who are re-inventing remedial basic techniques for working with threaded fasteners? In 30 years of college "professorship", I have seen obvious changes in college students. It used to be that I could start my OS class with "DOS est omnis divisa in partes tres" and at least some of the class would understand the phrase and the analogy. Is the reduction in ability to spell, or differentiate homonyms, related? I made a license plate frame that says "UC Berkeley Aluminum" (I also made a slightly variant one in case I ever have another British car) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 22 14:16:07 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 12:16:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cf. "eggs, sucking of, rationale for" [was RE: Multimeter recomendations] In-Reply-To: References: , <40d694ae78e471c926ea2d5d7b521010.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> <4C99C404.5482.12DFE8@cclist.sydex.com> <4C9A2702.9030900@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20100922121411.G88355@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 22 Sep 2010, Rich Alderson wrote: > The practice far predates modern cooking regimina[1], and originally > referred to the consumption of the eggs of wild birds. These are an > excellent source of protein, as well as vitamin D, and easily eaten even > by elders who have lost their teeth to the ravages of time (thus, > "grandmother" in the saying in question). Since they are internally > fragile, it is simpler to suck out the contents rather than opening the > shell more completely. > [1] Plural of "regimen". Thank you I'd bet that you habitually turn screws back to find the start of the threads. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Wed Sep 22 14:23:20 2010 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 14:23:20 -0500 Subject: Turbo Pascal floppies Message-ID: I have a set of six 5.25" floppies containing "Borland Turbo Pascal for Windows 1.5". Please contact me off-list if interested. thanks Charles From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 22 14:58:23 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 12:58:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4C99C404.5482.12DFE8@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <40d694ae78e471c926ea2d5d7b521010.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> <4C99C404.5482.12DFE8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100922125718.R88355@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 22 Sep 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > ...and here I thought that everyone knew how to suck eggs. (a small > hole in the opposite end of the shell to admit air makes the job much > easier). Of course, with factory-farmed eggs, the risk of salmonella > is always a factor. Bet my grandma didn't know about that one. wild bird eggs have a much lower risk than the half a billion in the supermarkets. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 22 13:05:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 19:05:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <4C98CF4B.5090505@comcast.net> from "Nick Allen" at Sep 21, 10 10:29:15 am Message-ID: > > Thanks Al, > > We are doing component testing of all the electronics in the > monitor first, before we do any further testing with the actual alto. > We do see the tube glowing, also the transistors all seem to be > working. We are however NOT getting any static on the screen, I don't > think the flyback is outputting high voltage, we are working our way > backwards to find the culprit. > I seem to rememebr seeing schematics for the Alto monitor on bitsavers (but I can't rememebr them in detail). I assume you don't have an EHT voltmeter, otherwise you'd have measured the fianl anode voltage on the CRT by now :-) OK, the first thing to do is see how the CRT heater is powered (since you know that's working). Most of the time it just comes from a PSU regulator, but occasionally, it's powered by a little winding on the flyback transfotmer. If the latter, then if the heater is glowing, you know the horizotnal output staage is doing something. Next masure the CRT pin voltages. On a monchrome CRT you'd expect, perhaps, 700V on some of the electrodes, but not much more. Which means the votlages are witin the range of most multimeters. If you can't find suh voltages, it's a petty good bet you have problems in the horizontal section. One trick I hesitate to mention, since there's the posibilty of doing damage, is to _momentarily_ short the cathode to grid (g1) on the CRT. By removing hte -ve grid bias, you should get a very bright screen. But don't leave thsoe electrodes shorted together, you can damage the CRT due to excessive beam current. Just a quick flick with a bit of wire. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 22 13:13:31 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 19:13:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4C99214D.8010006@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Sep 21, 10 04:19:09 pm Message-ID: > > Well, I'm not sure I'd want something that wasn't sealed anyway, just so dirt Agreed. There are some high-impedance nodes in the input stages of a DMM, and leakage on the PCB (due to dirt) will cause all sorts of problems. The Fluke 85 is well-sealead (rubber gasket round the case, O-ring round the input connector assmebly, etc). I can;t fault it there > couldn't get in there. There's a little rubber strip around the battery cover > on one of my meters, for instance. I just wonder if you could chop the part of > the case that sits over the battery and somehow turn it into a removable > battery cover... Possibly. Although I think modifying the screws (fitting tapped bushes, etc) is preferable. > > > I could probably pass the display off as a silhouette iamge of a > > munntain range :-). > > Ahh, so the black portion is 'jagged' then? From your original description it Yes. And it's gettign worse, I think (more of the display is turning black), which is consistent with my theroy that it's losing the liquid crystal material. > sounded like a regular rectangular section corresponding to the lower half of > the display, which did seem more like a driver-type fault. Something more > irregular does seem more like a broken LCD :-( Especially as it's still there with the LCB removed from the instrument :-) > > > Unless I can get the right part somehow -- and Fluke can no longer supply > > it -- I am stuck. > > Maybe try the local Freecycle list? Given the population density around you, I > expect there's a healthy nearby list, and such a meter's the sort of thing > someone might have lurking in their loft that they'd completely forgotten > about :-) Maybe... But of all neighbours, etc, I know, only one has a multimeter, and that's a cheapo one, not a Fluke. I suspect the number of old Fluke 85s sitting around is minimal... FWIW the oriignal 83 used the same display, the 87 didn't. Yes I have checked the service manual. It's a 4-way multiplexed thing (4 backplanes), so fidning an alternative is impososible, I think. And almost all the electronics in the insturment is in one ASIC, so I can't modify that either. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 22 13:28:33 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 19:28:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: from "arcarlini@iee.org" at Sep 21, 10 10:25:04 pm Message-ID: > > FLuke was at least 5 times the price of a cheap meter with similar > > paper specifications. But I do object if what I get isn't much > > better than the > > cheap version. > > That's a bit unfair on the Fluke: it might have been quite a bit better > than my Rolson quite-a-lot-of-functions multimeter (good enough for > continuity tests and fiddling with the car). That may not be good enough for _my_ continuity tests. Most cheap meters respond far too slowly and/or they beep on, say, the 'resistance' between power rails or similar. Tracing out connections on a PCB with soemthing like that gets painful fast :-) > > Your complaints are that swapping the battery would eventually lead to > a failure which could easily have been prevented by better design My rela moan here is that if I am spending sevearl hundred pounds on an instrument when 'simular' ones cost, say \pounds 20, then there has to be something to justify the higher cost. And not cutting corners is part of it. > (actually > the Rolson might win there :-)) and that the LCD display failed through > old age (10p says the Rolson won't last that long despite the light > usage it sees). Actually, there are 2 more complainmts. The first is hte mode switching aranagement, which did sometimes not work properly (why they did it this way I don;t know) And the other is that spares are not available. Perhaps that is unfair after all this time, but I do like to keep my devices running for ridiculously long times. The 'lifetime warranty' on modrre moderm DMMs uses their own definiton of 'lifetime' and is of not much use to me... I've poked around the FLuke website. It's somewhat silly in that, for exampl,e what manuals they have for download depends on whether you claim to be in the US or UK. If you're in the US, there's a like for getting spare parts (mind you, the form on the next page seems to be broken), that doesn't exist in the UK., But anyway... One thing I _do not_ like is that there are no service manuals for the later instruments (this applies to Agilent too, I have considered one of their meters). There are calibration manuals, but no compoent-level scheamtics or parts lists. Which means (a) it's going to be expensive/diffiuclt to repair and (b) I can't see if the mode swithcing 'feature' is still there or not. It's coming to the point where I am going to have to make my own portable DMM to get one that I like... > > I cannot really comment on the accuracy of my two cheap and one > not-so-cheap > (but free to me) meters, other than to say that they all matched to > within one > percent (and also matched the equally uncalibrated PSU) but I bet I > could > send my branded one off to be calibrated with a straight face (if I > could afford it) I don;t need traceable claibration for anything I do. Calibrating against my own pseudo-standards (like 0.01% resisotrs), is good enough. > but the Rolson would cost more in postage alone than the meter did in > the first > place :-) > > So do you have a cheap meter against which to compare? No. I have some reasonable bench DVMs, etc (going back quite a few years, some are old enoguh to be all discrete transistors, I think one even has a couple of vlavles in the input stageto keep the impedance high enough). Given those, and until recently a Fluke DMM, why would I want a cheap one? Oh, I do have, non-working, but I suspect repairalbe, a fully valved DVM. An 8U or so rack of electronics. Around 50 valves all told... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 22 13:39:27 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 19:39:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <20100921143958.R52364@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Sep 21, 10 03:03:05 pm Message-ID: > > Yes, I could do, easily. And if I manage to get a replacemnt displayu and > > the self-tapped holes doen't last, I may well do that. > > But if I buy a new, expensive, multimter, I don't want to have to modify > > it. > > I'm surprised! > I have often bought things that would be what I want AFTER modifications. Oh so do I. Look, I mentioned I'd bought a Big Trak. You don't honestly think I need a toy plastic 'tank' do you? I bought it, intending to modify it. > Sometimes, I modify newly purchased stuff as soon as I have confirmed that > it works. Admittedly, most of those mods are TRIVIAL, such as adding an > external power connector. Ditto. I take just about everyhing apart to check it's been assembled properly (often it has _not_!) and to do modifications. But I don't do mods for no good reason. And to be honest, the sort of measuredments I need a DMM for are pretty standard ones. If I am spending a few hundred pounds/dollars on such an instruemnt, I darn well think it shouldn't need modifying... > > Now, if they can do that in a cheap toy, they darn well should do it in > > an expensice measuring instrument. > > . . . and it is STRANGE that they hadn't done so! And _that_ is my main complaint. It can't bee a leakage or safety issue in that the self-tapping screws are metal (of course), and there would be no electrical difference if they were machine screws and tapped bushes. Probalby some idiot bean-counter had figurted out how to save $1 per insturment (not realising that had they sold them at $10 more, they'd have sold the same numbero of units), but in the process has got me sugggesting to all and sundy that Fluke is perhaps not the great brand it once was... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 22 15:08:57 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 21:08:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4C9A0233.8000009@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Sep 22, 10 08:18:43 am Message-ID: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > It's not an autoranger like the Fluke, but I'm not sure that I care > > for the autoranging feature. > > Always been curious about that; I don't like autoranging meters either - but > I've never really worked out why. Nor do I. I find it takes considerably longer for me to read the thing if the range has changed between readings. The worst I ever used was a Fluke 73 (the original one, this was over 25 years ago). It was autoranging _only_ and had the analogue bargraph along the bottom of the display. You can guess the rest. You'd be trying to peak or null something, the darn thing would change ranges, and the bar would suddnetly shrink or grow. Rather defeated the prupose of that bargraph... I would _never_ consider an autoranging-only meter. > > Maybe I just like knowing what a tool's going to do, without feeling like it's > second-guessing me - but that logic probably doesn't really make much sense in > a multimeter context :-) I think it does. The best tools are ones that you know how they are going to behave, so you don't ahve to think about them. This is one reason I'll not use anything but an RPN calcualtor, I don't want to have to remember all the precedence rules (i.e. what does '-2^2' evaluate to?). And probalby why I hate autoconfiguration programs. Any program that thinks it knows more aobut my computer's hardware than I do is wrong. Period. Some of the DEC autoconfuration programs drove me mad. You could end up having to change the addresses and vecotrs of almost all the devices in the machine ebcause you'd removed one controller. Ouch. I would much prefer to be able to say 'I have an RL11 at address , vector . Yes, I know htat's non-standard, but just take my word for it':-). > My holy grail would be a meter where the test leads didn't auto-tangle on the > bench as soon as my back was turned for more than five minutes ;-) Alas all test gear suffers from that. No manufactuer has solved that one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 22 15:14:17 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 21:14:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4C9A2A33.9080103@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 22, 10 12:09:23 pm Message-ID: > > On 9/22/10 12:05 PM, John Foust wrote: > > At 10:55 AM 9/22/2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> What I'm wondering is why anyone would WANT to. > > > > Yeah, I thought everyone blew eggs. Then you have a cool empty nearly intact shell! > > Umm, yeah, I suppose, but...for what purpose? Eggsperimentation? Somewhere (and I really must find it...) I have a book entitled something like 'Mad things to make'. One of them is a 'bird bombing kite', the payload concists of blown eggs 'filled with an obnoxious substance of your choice' :-). Same book has a design for a 'bubble blowing fish hat', something I really must make and wear... -tonh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 22 14:49:20 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 20:49:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4C98CDF1.5449.15D975C@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 21, 10 03:23:29 pm Message-ID: > A couple of years ago, I received a Mastech 8284 DMM as a promotional > item ("buy $50 or more of our stuff and we'll throw in a meter"). That, I guess, makes it a cheap meter :-) > After awhile, I found myself using it more than my Fluke 77. The > accuracy is very good on mine, the display is large (with a > backlight), the continuity checker is fast, and it seems to be well- > made, right down to having brass bushings on the battery compartment > screws (and you don't have to remove the rubber "bib" to get at > them). > > http://www.p-mastech.com/products/04_dm/ms8264.html I will take a look... FWIW, I am currnetly using a Maplin own-brand analogue multimeter. I bought a couple of them _years_ ago as customer returns, non-working. There was a cehcmatic in the manual, and it didn't take me long to find the dry joint on the fuseholder (I didn't need the schematic for that :-)). It's got rather more ranges that most analogue meters, including temperature, Hfe, and capacitance. It even ahs AC current, somethign that few analogue meters have. Thing is, it's quite well made, and works remarkably well... > It's not an autoranger like the Fluke, but I'm not sure that I care > for the autoranging feature. _Many_ years ago I used an origianl FLuke 73, which was autoranging _only_, not even a range hold function. It drove me insane. I would insist on manual ranging, and to be honest, I never _needed_ the autorange feature of the Fluke 85. Often I would sleect the range by hand, and the times when I let it autorange it wouldnt' ahve made much difference if I'd had to select the right range. > Yes, there are some things that I don't care for; I wish the buttons > were better engineered, but all in all, it's way better than the > Harbor Freqight DMM. Another one I've used for many years is one > branded by JDR--decent enough, but no continuity buzzer. That is a feautre I do regard as essential, though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 22 14:52:40 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 20:52:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4C993411.5020500@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Sep 21, 10 11:39:13 pm Message-ID: > Yeah, those prices are about right for ebay. Stewart of Reading usually=20 > have them too, but at a considerably higher price (=A345 last time I chec= > ked). I am going to be very wary about buying an old Fluke instrument now. Since they don't have spares for old models, and since they use a lot of custom parts which are not used elserwhere, if there are any problems I could be in the same situation I am in now. > > >> If you're after modern, shiny and new, the Agilent U1251A and U1251B a= > re=3D20 > >> nice. Really, REALLY nice. Big display, 4.5-digit 50,000 count, true-R= > MS=3D20 > [ ... ] > > Sounds very nice, but I'll bet it's not cheap :-). > > =A3300 ish from Farnell. I've looked at those on THe Agilent website. They look nice, but without seeing one and/or a full service manual (which doesn't seem to be available) I can't comment any further. > - the Agilent DMM (=A350). Someone tried to "fix" it, and put it back=20 > together wrong. Fixed the switch, chucked in a new PP3 and some fuses,=20 > good to go. I've since bought the IR Data Link and Temperature=20 > Measurement kits for it. I am living in the wrong city :-( -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 22 14:55:37 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 20:55:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: DIP packages (was Re: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto) In-Reply-To: <4C995BE7.1010605@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Sep 21, 10 06:29:11 pm Message-ID: > Fairchild had one part that was in a 36-pin DIP in 1969. I've never seen=20 > that used for any other part. Now that's one I've never seen... > > Early on (late 1960s, early-to-mid 1970s), some of the Japanese=20 > semiconductor vendors such as NEC seemed to like the 42-pin DIP. Seen those often enough... I've used at least one chip in a 52 pin DIP (0.9" wide, an 8X300 series microcontroller)), and IIRC a 10 pin DIP (some kind of clock driver I think). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 22 14:59:43 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 20:59:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <20100921205122.M52364@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Sep 21, 10 08:54:09 pm Message-ID: > > > >up with joining plastic parts with cyano-acrylate (super-glue) and then > > >running a soldering iron along the joint. > > On Tue, 21 Sep 2010, John Foust wrote: > > What does that do? Heat helps it? > > Welding the joint at the surface. > Even that shallow weld substantially reduces the stress on the joint. Now that trick I'd not come across. Mind you, I find isocyano acrylic hydro-copolymerising adhesives to be anything but 'super' :-) A trick which I do not claim any kind of originality for works on plastics that you can find a solvent for (dichloromethane works on quite a few plastics, it's sold as 'plastic weld'). What you do is put the bits together and run a brush dipped in the solvent along the cracks. That much is stnadard. Then take a piece of cotton fabric (an old shirt or similar) and cut a pieve to fit over the back of the broekn area. Put it in place and paint it with the solvent. Then force it into the softened plastic forming a sort of composite matrieal. It makes the repair a lot stronger. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 22 15:33:49 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 13:33:49 -0700 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <20100922114825.S88355@shell.lmi.net> References: , <40d694ae78e471c926ea2d5d7b521010.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>, <20100922114825.S88355@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C9A05BD.6212.1139A71@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Sep 2010 at 12:03, Fred Cisin wrote: > In 30 years of college "professorship", I have seen obvious changes in > college students. It used to be that I could start my OS class with > "DOS est omnis divisa in partes tres" and at least some of the class > would understand the phrase and the analogy. Would they have understood (re: sucking eggs) "Bubo canit lusciniae"? --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Sep 22 15:36:47 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 21:36:47 +0100 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C9A68DF.9060503@philpem.me.uk> On 22/09/10 20:52, Tony Duell wrote: > I am going to be very wary about buying an old Fluke instrument now. > Since they don't have spares for old models, and since they use a lot of > custom parts which are not used elserwhere, if there are any problems I > could be in the same situation I am in now. Yeah, I had a bit of a re-think when I saw the service manual for my Fluke. One custom ASIC, and a bunch of passives... (Agilent U1251A) >> =A3300 ish from Farnell. > > I've looked at those on THe Agilent website. They look nice, but without > seeing one and/or a full service manual (which doesn't seem to be > available) I can't comment any further. There isn't a full service manual -- there's a "board swapping guide" which IIRC just tells you how to get the mainboard out. Their suggestion for aligning the mode switch? (paraphrasing a little here, I don't have the S/M in front of me) "When removing the Main PCB from the unit, ensure the mode switch is set to one of the OFF positions. The switch may be difficult to re-align if this instruction is not followed." I went with the highly scientific method of "figure out what mode it's in now, then set the switch to that mode and put it back together again". To my knowledge, there isn't a CLIP available for it, nor are any of the parts on the mainboard available separately, except the fuses. Those are about ?20 EACH (there are two of them). That money will get you a set of four Littelfuse DMM fuses (two to use and two spares), which work fine and meet all the specs of the Agilent parts except for breaking capacity... though I doubt I'll be measuring any 1kA circuits with a handheld DMM! -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 22 16:11:05 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 14:11:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100922140533.I92443@shell.lmi.net> > > I'm surprised! > > I have often bought things that would be what I want AFTER modifications. On Wed, 22 Sep 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > Oh so do I. Look, I mentioned I'd bought a Big Trak. You don't honestly > think I need a toy plastic 'tank' do you? I bought it, intending to > modify it. Yet, a BIG difference between us is that YOU get around to doing a much higher percentage of your projects. I bought an original Big Trak, intending to modify it. I never got around to doing any of the modifications. And, I have to admit that I still haven't gotten around to sending it to you! So far, all that I've done is to confirm that none of the boxes in my office will fit it well, so I need to check out the ones that I have at home. I WILL do so. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From chd at chdickman.com Wed Sep 22 16:57:45 2010 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 17:57:45 -0400 Subject: BSD 2.11 install tape needed In-Reply-To: <3d4aca2805e4c76eb6ae798021a50fe4.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <3d4aca2805e4c76eb6ae798021a50fe4.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 3:02 PM, E. Groenenberg wrote: > > > So' my question is if there is a kind soul who can provide > me with a (copy) of the install tape. > > What kind of tape? I created 9-track install tapes a long time ago. I could probably duplicate them. Its a lot easier to image the disk directly if it is SCSI for example. -chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Sep 22 17:27:48 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 15:27:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: disk platter advertising Message-ID: I found a fun little "business card" in the form of a 5.25" disk platter with a business name silk-screened on it. See http://661.org/images/disk-ad.jpg -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Sep 22 17:32:45 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 15:32:45 -0700 Subject: BSD 2.11 install tape needed In-Reply-To: References: <3d4aca2805e4c76eb6ae798021a50fe4.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Charles Dickman > Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 2:58 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: BSD 2.11 install tape needed > > On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 3:02 PM, E. Groenenberg > wrote: > > > > > > > So' my question is if there is a kind soul who can provide > > me with a (copy) of the install tape. > > > > > What kind of tape? > > I created 9-track install tapes a long time ago. I could probably > duplicate > them. > > Its a lot easier to image the disk directly if it is SCSI for example. > > -chuck Somewhere I have a TK50 install tape... and installed 2.11 on *my* 11/73 -- Ian From db at db.net Wed Sep 22 18:05:45 2010 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 19:05:45 -0400 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <20100922114825.S88355@shell.lmi.net> References: <40d694ae78e471c926ea2d5d7b521010.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> <20100922114825.S88355@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20100922230545.GA31789@night.db.net> On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 12:03:29PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > Somehow, the absolute basics of even working with threaded fasteners have ... > > In 30 years of college "professorship", I have seen obvious changes in > college students. > It used to be that I could start my OS class with "DOS est omnis divisa in That was a terrible pun you sneaky man. > partes tres" and at least some of the class would understand the phrase > and the analogy. I translated it fine with my rusty Latin, but it took me a while to catch the bad pun. > > Is the reduction in ability to spell, or differentiate homonyms, related? > I made a license plate frame that says "UC Berkeley Aluminum" (I also > made a slightly variant one in case I ever have another British car) You have seen the eggcorn database I hope? http://eggcorns.lascribe.net Language change is inevitable. Otherwise we would still be using Old English. What I think has changed is we have lost the kite tail of the written book.. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com - (not so grumpy) Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 22 18:51:07 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 16:51:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <20100922230545.GA31789@night.db.net> References: <40d694ae78e471c926ea2d5d7b521010.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> <20100922114825.S88355@shell.lmi.net> <20100922230545.GA31789@night.db.net> Message-ID: <20100922162244.N95074@shell.lmi.net> > > In 30 years of college "professorship", I have seen obvious changes in > > college students. It used to be that I could start my OS class with > > "DOS est omnis divisa in partes tres" On Wed, 22 Sep 2010, Diane Bruce wrote: > That was a terrible pun you sneaky man. My "ViaDisk?" and "DOS boot" lectures were worse. But, I always felt that in mastering DOS (or conquering Gaul) that learning what command to invoke in a given OS was way less important than understanding the relationship(s) between the BIOS, the API/BDOS/File-manager, and the User Interface, as well as a basic understanding of disk format(s), computer history, what trends to expect in the near future, internal commands V "external commands"/programs, batch processing, multitasking, etc. When college administrators asked "Which operating system do you teach?", I was able to honestly (although exaggeratingly) answer, "ALL." > I translated it fine with my rusty Latin, but it took me a while to > catch the bad pun. In the first semester that I started my lecture with that, I missed it also! > You have seen the eggcorn database I hope? > http://eggcorns.lascribe.net I hadn't. Thank you. That's a very nice collection of Mondegreens! Many of those add substantial additional information content to the phrases that they replace. > Language change is inevitable. Otherwise we would still be using > Old English. What I think has changed is we have lost the kite tail > of the written book.. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 22 19:02:53 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 17:02:53 -0700 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <20100922230545.GA31789@night.db.net> References: , <20100922114825.S88355@shell.lmi.net>, <20100922230545.GA31789@night.db.net> Message-ID: <4C9A36BD.26922.1D302CF@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Sep 2010 at 19:05, Diane Bruce wrote: > That was a terrible pun you sneaky man. Care to point me to the pun? I got the reference to the opening of Caesar's commentary on the Gallic Wars, but whence he pun? --Chuck From db at db.net Wed Sep 22 19:05:00 2010 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 20:05:00 -0400 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <20100922162244.N95074@shell.lmi.net> References: <40d694ae78e471c926ea2d5d7b521010.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> <20100922114825.S88355@shell.lmi.net> <20100922230545.GA31789@night.db.net> <20100922162244.N95074@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20100923000500.GA32780@night.db.net> On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 04:51:07PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > In 30 years of college "professorship", I have seen obvious changes in > > > college students. It used to be that I could start my OS class with > > > "DOS est omnis divisa in partes tres" > > On Wed, 22 Sep 2010, Diane Bruce wrote: > > That was a terrible pun you sneaky man. > > My > "ViaDisk?" and > "DOS boot" lectures were worse. *groan* > > I translated it fine with my rusty Latin, but it took me a while to > > catch the bad pun. > In the first semester that I started my lecture with that, I missed it > also! *g* > > You have seen the eggcorn database I hope? > > http://eggcorns.lascribe.net > > I hadn't. Thank you. That's a very nice collection of Mondegreens! Well, Monegreens apply to mis-heard song lyrics. An eggcorn is somewhat different, though can be similar. http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2633 "Eggcorn" makes the OED. > Many of those add substantial additional information content to the > phrases that they replace. Well. When we have forgotten the original rationale for a term, a new construction that seems to fit often arises. But I am still amused by youthamism for euphemism. Perhaps we have strayed way too far off topic. - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 22 19:25:28 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 17:25:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4C9A05BD.6212.1139A71@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <40d694ae78e471c926ea2d5d7b521010.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>, <20100922114825.S88355@shell.lmi.net> <4C9A05BD.6212.1139A71@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100922172505.N95074@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 22 Sep 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Would they have understood (re: sucking eggs) "Bubo canit > lusciniae"? Current students? 0%. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Sep 22 22:00:32 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 20:00:32 -0700 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <4C98CF4B.5090505@comcast.net> References: <4C98C05A.5020300@bitsavers.org> <4C98CF4B.5090505@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4C9AC2D0.2040208@brouhaha.com> Nick Allen wrote: > We are however NOT getting any static on the screen, I don't think the flyback is outputting high voltage, > we are working our way backwards to find the culprit. Why on earth would you expect to see static on the screen? It's not a TV. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Sep 22 23:26:59 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 21:26:59 -0700 Subject: DIP packages & the 555 In-Reply-To: <4C995BE7.1010605@brouhaha.com> References: <4C983186.8030605@comcast.net> <4C995BE7.1010605@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <23ad9329bc3ec48becf89c95bab2a8e4@cs.ubc.ca> While looking around for a little about the 8-pin DIP package, I checked into the 555, as it was introduced about the same time as the 8-pin DIP appeared. This site (albeit a 2nd-source, not direct ref) says the 555 in 8-pin DIP was introduced in 1971 (page 2): http://semiconductormuseum.com/Transistors/LectureHall/Camenzind/ Camenzind_Index.htm But what I was surprised about was the statement about the 555 still selling a billion units in 2003. I thought it had faded from popularity since the '70/'80's as I can't recall seeing one in a new product in many years. Apparently I'm not looking hard enough. Where are all these 555's going? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Sep 22 23:32:58 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 21:32:58 -0700 Subject: 8 mm tapes In-Reply-To: <4C9AC2D0.2040208@brouhaha.com> References: <4C98C05A.5020300@bitsavers.org> <4C98CF4B.5090505@comcast.net>,<4C9AC2D0.2040208@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: Hi I've added a scsi tape drive to my collection. I hope to use it with my Sparcbook. It is a Sun box with a sticker on it saying that it is a EXB-8500C drive. Do I need special 8mm tapes with it? How do I know what tapes will work with it? I've never dealt with these drives before. Dwight From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Sep 22 23:43:16 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 00:43:16 -0400 Subject: 8 mm tapes References: <4C98C05A.5020300@bitsavers.org><4C98CF4B.5090505@comcast.net>, <4C9AC2D0.2040208@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: http://www-esd.fnal.gov/esd/catalog/main/exabyte/8500-spec.htm 8mm EXATAPE, 112m) EXB-8500: 5 GB EXB-8500c: 10 GB (compressed)* http://cgi.ebay.com/FujiFilm-8mm-Data-Tape-112M-5GB-10GB-/2757123687 ----- Original Message ----- From: "dwight elvey" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 12:32 AM Subject: 8 mm tapes Hi I've added a scsi tape drive to my collection. I hope to use it with my Sparcbook. It is a Sun box with a sticker on it saying that it is a EXB-8500C drive. Do I need special 8mm tapes with it? How do I know what tapes will work with it? I've never dealt with these drives before. Dwight = From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 23 00:32:13 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 22:32:13 -0700 Subject: 8 mm tapes In-Reply-To: References: <4C98C05A.5020300@bitsavers.org>, <4C9AC2D0.2040208@brouhaha.com>, Message-ID: <4C9A83ED.17716.30086BC@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Sep 2010 at 21:32, dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi > I've added a scsi tape drive to my collection. I hope to use > it with my Sparcbook. It is a Sun box with a sticker on it saying that > it is a EXB-8500C drive. Do I need special 8mm tapes with it? How do I > know what tapes will work with it? I've never dealt with these drives > before. Dwight Hi Dwight, I have a bunch of new unused 90m Maxell 8mm tapes. If you'd like, I can send you a few. Heaven knows, they're not going to get used here. --Chuck From nick.allen at comcast.net Wed Sep 22 21:11:00 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 21:11:00 -0500 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C9AB734.2090406@comcast.net> Al, Quick question regarding the Horizontal coil, do you remember how the turns/wire gauge required for repairing the horizontal gauge, did you wind it to a certain value, or simply a number of turns? Thanks! Nick From nick.allen at comcast.net Wed Sep 22 22:27:39 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 22:27:39 -0500 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <4C9AC2D0.2040208@brouhaha.com> References: <4C9AC2D0.2040208@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C9AC92B.2060306@comcast.net> Not SEE static, but feel static From quapla at xs4all.nl Thu Sep 23 01:28:59 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 08:28:59 +0200 Subject: BSD 2.11 install tape needed In-Reply-To: References: <3d4aca2805e4c76eb6ae798021a50fe4.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: A TK50. The machine has one tk50 drive and one RD54. I fortunately do have 2 spare RD54's, one is now going to be used to replace the crashed one. > On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 3:02 PM, E. Groenenberg wrote: > >> >> >> So' my question is if there is a kind soul who can provide >> me with a (copy) of the install tape. >> >> > What kind of tape? > > I created 9-track install tapes a long time ago. I could probably > duplicate > them. > > Its a lot easier to image the disk directly if it is SCSI for example. > > -chuck > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From quapla at xs4all.nl Thu Sep 23 01:31:11 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 08:31:11 +0200 Subject: BSD 2.11 install tape needed In-Reply-To: References: <3d4aca2805e4c76eb6ae798021a50fe4.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Any change of getting a copy of it? Ed >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Charles Dickman >> Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 2:58 PM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: BSD 2.11 install tape needed >> >> On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 3:02 PM, E. Groenenberg >> wrote: >> >> > >> > >> > So' my question is if there is a kind soul who can provide >> > me with a (copy) of the install tape. >> > >> > >> What kind of tape? >> >> I created 9-track install tapes a long time ago. I could probably >> duplicate >> them. >> >> Its a lot easier to image the disk directly if it is SCSI for example. >> >> -chuck > > Somewhere I have a TK50 install tape... and installed 2.11 on *my* 11/73 > -- Ian > > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From quapla at xs4all.nl Thu Sep 23 01:34:05 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 08:34:05 +0200 Subject: disk platter advertising In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2d5a23c74150fb436515d138752ee09b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Well the guy who handed them out may have needed a trolly or something similar to carry then and be able to hand them out at every visit.... Ed > > I found a fun little "business card" in the form of a 5.25" disk platter > with a business name silk-screened on it. See > http://661.org/images/disk-ad.jpg > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 23 07:24:40 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 06:24:40 -0600 Subject: DIP packages & the 555 In-Reply-To: <23ad9329bc3ec48becf89c95bab2a8e4@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4C983186.8030605@comcast.net> <4C995BE7.1010605@brouhaha.com> <23ad9329bc3ec48becf89c95bab2a8e4@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4C9B4708.9010907@jetnet.ab.ca> On 22/09/2010 10:26 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > While looking around for a little about the 8-pin DIP package, I > checked into the 555, as it was introduced about the same time as the > 8-pin DIP appeared. This site (albeit a 2nd-source, not direct ref) > says the 555 in 8-pin DIP was introduced in 1971 (page 2): > > > http://semiconductormuseum.com/Transistors/LectureHall/Camenzind/Camenzind_Index.htm > > But what I was surprised about was the statement about the 555 still > selling a billion units in 2003. I thought it had faded from > popularity since the '70/'80's as I can't recall seeing one in a new > product in many years. Apparently I'm not looking hard enough. Where > are all these 555's going? > > who knows? But they sure must sell alot of embeded cpu's for all the usb crap out today. ben. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Sep 23 08:36:12 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 06:36:12 -0700 Subject: 8 mm tapes In-Reply-To: <4C9A83ED.17716.30086BC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C98C05A.5020300@bitsavers.org>, <4C9AC2D0.2040208@brouhaha.com>, , , <4C9A83ED.17716.30086BC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Hi Chuck That would be great. Would it still work OK as the spec says 112m? I can buy three 160 EXABYTE labled tapes on ebay for not a hole lot as well. I own you a disk from the Canon Cat so you can look at it as well. I tend to get side tracked. So, what all seem to be saying is that there is no special length requirement. I don't have to get exactly 112m tapes? Dwight > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 22:32:13 -0700 > Subject: Re: 8 mm tapes > > On 22 Sep 2010 at 21:32, dwight elvey wrote: > > > > > Hi > > I've added a scsi tape drive to my collection. I hope to use > > it with my Sparcbook. It is a Sun box with a sticker on it saying that > > it is a EXB-8500C drive. Do I need special 8mm tapes with it? How do I > > know what tapes will work with it? I've never dealt with these drives > > before. Dwight > > > Hi Dwight, > > I have a bunch of new unused 90m Maxell 8mm tapes. If you'd like, I > can send you a few. Heaven knows, they're not going to get used > here. > > --Chuck > > > From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Sep 23 08:39:49 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 09:39:49 -0400 Subject: 8 mm tapes In-Reply-To: References: <4C98C05A.5020300@bitsavers.org> <4C9AC2D0.2040208@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <201009230939.49441.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday, September 23, 2010, dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > I've added a scsi tape drive to my collection. I hope to use > it with my Sparcbook. It is a Sun box with a sticker on it saying > that it is a EXB-8500C drive. Do I need special 8mm tapes > with it? How do I know what tapes will work with it? > I've never dealt with these drives before. Especially for the low-capacity 8500/8200 Exabyte drives, 8mm video tape was commonly used with the drives. Some may say that "isn't reliable", but 8mm drives tend to not have great reliability due to their helical scan head, including the fact that they tend to drift out of alignment over time. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 23 08:41:15 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 09:41:15 -0400 Subject: 8 mm tapes In-Reply-To: References: <4C98C05A.5020300@bitsavers.org> <4C98CF4B.5090505@comcast.net>, <4C9AC2D0.2040208@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C9B58FB.7070709@neurotica.com> On 9/23/10 12:32 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > I've added a scsi tape drive to my collection. I hope to use > it with my Sparcbook. It is a Sun box with a sticker on it saying > that it is a EXB-8500C drive. Do I need special 8mm tapes > with it? How do I know what tapes will work with it? > I've never dealt with these drives before. The 8200 (2.3GB) could use standard video tapes, but the 8500 (5GB) requires data tapes. I tried video tapes in the 8500 when it came out, but the error rates were horrendous. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 23 08:44:06 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 09:44:06 -0400 Subject: 8 mm tapes In-Reply-To: <201009230939.49441.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4C98C05A.5020300@bitsavers.org> <4C9AC2D0.2040208@brouhaha.com> <201009230939.49441.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4C9B59A6.8030309@neurotica.com> On 9/23/10 9:39 AM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> I've added a scsi tape drive to my collection. I hope to use >> it with my Sparcbook. It is a Sun box with a sticker on it saying >> that it is a EXB-8500C drive. Do I need special 8mm tapes >> with it? How do I know what tapes will work with it? >> I've never dealt with these drives before. > > Especially for the low-capacity 8500/8200 Exabyte drives, 8mm video tape > was commonly used with the drives. Video was commonly *tried* with 8500s, but not many people got very far. Our error rates with "good" video tapes were upwards of 20%. > Some may say that "isn't reliable", but 8mm drives tend to not have > great reliability due to their helical scan head, including the fact > that they tend to drift out of alignment over time. "Write-only media", yes. I've never seen a tape as unreliable as an 8200/8500. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Sep 23 08:52:30 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 09:52:30 -0400 Subject: 8 mm tapes References: <4C98C05A.5020300@bitsavers.org><4C9AC2D0.2040208@brouhaha.com> <201009230939.49441.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4C9B59A6.8030309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: IBM sold the 20/40GB Mammoth 8MM drives so reliability must have been decent at that point (different tape formulation I assume). I linked to an ebay seller who had the correct tapes for that 8500 drive for $4 shipped, not going to find anything much cheaper (even if free you are paying for postage). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 9:44 AM Subject: Re: 8 mm tapes > On 9/23/10 9:39 AM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >>> I've added a scsi tape drive to my collection. I hope to use >>> it with my Sparcbook. It is a Sun box with a sticker on it saying >>> that it is a EXB-8500C drive. Do I need special 8mm tapes >>> with it? How do I know what tapes will work with it? >>> I've never dealt with these drives before. >> >> Especially for the low-capacity 8500/8200 Exabyte drives, 8mm video tape >> was commonly used with the drives. > > Video was commonly *tried* with 8500s, but not many people got very far. > Our error rates with "good" video tapes were upwards of 20%. > >> Some may say that "isn't reliable", but 8mm drives tend to not have >> great reliability due to their helical scan head, including the fact >> that they tend to drift out of alignment over time. > > "Write-only media", yes. I've never seen a tape as unreliable as an > 8200/8500. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 23 09:06:06 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 10:06:06 -0400 Subject: 8 mm tapes In-Reply-To: References: <4C98C05A.5020300@bitsavers.org><4C9AC2D0.2040208@brouhaha.com> <201009230939.49441.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4C9B59A6.8030309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C9B5ECE.3040209@neurotica.com> On 9/23/10 9:52 AM, Teo Zenios wrote: > IBM sold the 20/40GB Mammoth 8MM drives so reliability must have been > decent at that point (different tape formulation I assume). That was easily a decade, possibly more, after the drives we're talking about. I had "write-only" experiences with 8200 and 8500 drives in 1992; they were new at that time. I'm sure subsequent development improved error correction, head design, tape wear, and just about everything else. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 23 09:06:09 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 10:06:09 -0400 Subject: DIP packages & the 555 In-Reply-To: <23ad9329bc3ec48becf89c95bab2a8e4@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4C983186.8030605@comcast.net> <4C995BE7.1010605@brouhaha.com> <23ad9329bc3ec48becf89c95bab2a8e4@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4C9B5ED1.8050706@neurotica.com> On 9/23/10 12:26 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > While looking around for a little about the 8-pin DIP package, I checked > into the 555, as it was introduced about the same time as the 8-pin DIP > appeared. This site (albeit a 2nd-source, not direct ref) says the 555 > in 8-pin DIP was introduced in 1971 (page 2): > > http://semiconductormuseum.com/Transistors/LectureHall/Camenzind/Camenzind_Index.htm > > > But what I was surprised about was the statement about the 555 still > selling a billion units in 2003. I thought it had faded from popularity > since the '70/'80's as I can't recall seeing one in a new product in > many years. Apparently I'm not looking hard enough. Where are all these > 555's going? A common use of 555s is as a PWM generator for large battery-powered tools such as drills, power screwdrivers, and saws. These alone account for quite a few 555s. There was also one in my recently-replaced dishwasher (built around 2000) that timed one of the cycles. I think this was one of the few times I actually saw a 555 used as a "timer". ;) I designed 555s into a commercial product in 2002 and again in 2004. I needed a ~455KHz carrier generator for an IR data transmitter, and a 555 was the easiest way to do it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Sep 23 10:22:52 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 16:22:52 +0100 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <20100922140533.I92443@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100922140533.I92443@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C9B70CC.7030109@philpem.me.uk> On 22/09/10 22:11, Fred Cisin wrote: > Yet, a BIG difference between us is that YOU get around to doing a much > higher percentage of your projects. I bought an original Big Trak, > intending to modify it. I never got around to doing any of the > modifications. Sounds like me. Something else "more important" always gets in the way... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Sep 23 10:32:22 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 08:32:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8 mm tapes In-Reply-To: <201009230939.49441.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <22925.35714.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 9/23/10, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > Do I need special 8mm tapes > > with it? How do I know what tapes will work with it? > > I've never dealt with these drives before. > > Especially for the low-capacity 8500/8200 Exabyte drives, > 8mm video tape > was commonly used with the drives. I pretty regularly use video tapes in Exabyte 8200 drives on my Prime computers. The 8200 drives only store 2.5 gig per tape, and don't seem to be very picky about what tape they use. Length is not important either - it'll just write until it runs out of tape, there is no form of tape length accounting with these drives. I've found that the Fuji brand 8mm video tape (available at the grocery store) works just fine in the 8200 drives. I don't know if the 8500's are pickier or not. I've found the Exabyte drives to be "pretty reliable". They're not as reliable as nine track drives, but they are a lot more convenient. I run into less problems with the tape media than I do with the interface between the drive and the computer, but that's really more of an idiosyncrasy of the Prime SCSI controller than the drive itself - although it is possible to get an 8200 into a weird mode where it's just hung up and won't eject. -Ian From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 23 11:25:13 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 17:25:13 +0100 Subject: DIP packages & the 555 In-Reply-To: <4C9B5ED1.8050706@neurotica.com> References: <4C983186.8030605@comcast.net> <4C995BE7.1010605@brouhaha.com> <23ad9329bc3ec48becf89c95bab2a8e4@cs.ubc.ca> <4C9B5ED1.8050706@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20100923172513.16644yrb89nbvh4w@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Quoting Dave McGuire : > I designed 555s into a commercial product in 2002 and again in > 2004. I needed a ~455KHz carrier generator for an IR data > transmitter, and a 555 was the easiest way to do it. Would a crystal oscilator not have been beter for this ? I seem to remember 555s as having a rep for not being perticually accurate.....though I guess if it was good enough for your app, it's prolly the simplest/cheapest solution. Cheers. Phill. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Sep 23 11:29:30 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 09:29:30 -0700 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <4C9AC92B.2060306@comcast.net> References: <4C9AC2D0.2040208@brouhaha.com> <4C9AC92B.2060306@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4C9B806A.1060105@brouhaha.com> > Not SEE static, but feel static Oh. You're probably already aware that monochrome tubes generally don't exhibit as much static attraction as color tubes, due to the lower second anode voltage. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 23 11:38:00 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 12:38:00 -0400 Subject: DIP packages & the 555 In-Reply-To: <20100923172513.16644yrb89nbvh4w@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <4C983186.8030605@comcast.net> <4C995BE7.1010605@brouhaha.com> <23ad9329bc3ec48becf89c95bab2a8e4@cs.ubc.ca> <4C9B5ED1.8050706@neurotica.com> <20100923172513.16644yrb89nbvh4w@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4C9B8268.6070007@neurotica.com> On 9/23/10 12:25 PM, afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk wrote: >> I designed 555s into a commercial product in 2002 and again in 2004. I >> needed a ~455KHz carrier generator for an IR data transmitter, and a >> 555 was the easiest way to do it. > > Would a crystal oscilator not have been beter for this ? I seem to > remember 555s as having a rep for not being perticually > accurate.....though I guess if it was good enough for your app, it's > prolly the simplest/cheapest solution. Well sure, a crystal oscillator would've been a lot more stable, but the receiver (Vishay TSOP-7000, a really nice device) has a VERY wide tolerance for its carrier frequency. Further, this was for an indoor-only application, so thermal drift wasn't going to be much of a problem either. It worked very well. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 23 12:09:52 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 10:09:52 -0700 Subject: 8 mm tapes In-Reply-To: References: <4C98C05A.5020300@bitsavers.org>, <4C9A83ED.17716.30086BC@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4C9B2770.6037.204A9A@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Sep 2010 at 6:36, dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi Chuck > That would be great. Would it still work OK as the spec says > 112m? I can buy three 160 EXABYTE labled tapes > on ebay for not a hole lot as well. I own you a disk > from the Canon Cat so you can look at it as well. > I tend to get side tracked. > So, what all seem to be saying is that there is no > special length requirement. I don't have to get exactly > 112m tapes? > Dwight Hi Dwight, Would you rather have the 112m tapes? I've got a bunch of those too, but I preferred the 90m ones as they're a bit sturdier (thicker substrate). Length isn't critical for the drive--Exabyte even sold 60m tapes for their drives. Give me your mailing address and I'll pack a small flat-rate USPS box full of them. $5 to cover shipping is all I'd ask. --Chuck P.S. That's the awful thing about doing media conversion--stuff seems to pile up as no one wants it back. I've got boxes and boxes of 5.25" floppies from old customer jobs, for example. My latest job involves a pile of hard-sector 8" floppies. Your 8mm tapes, however, will be new--only the carboard packaging removed to save space. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 23 12:13:49 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 10:13:49 -0700 Subject: 8 mm tapes In-Reply-To: <4C9B58FB.7070709@neurotica.com> References: <4C98C05A.5020300@bitsavers.org>, , <4C9B58FB.7070709@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C9B285D.27921.23E758@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Sep 2010 at 9:41, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 9/23/10 12:32 AM, dwight elvey wrote: >The 8200 (2.3GB) could use standard video tapes, but the 8500 (5GB) > requires data tapes. I tried video tapes in the 8500 when it came > out, but the error rates were horrendous. Exabyte had warnings about the unreliability of 8mm video tape with all of their later drives. I've got an 8700 here (as well as an 8500 and 8200) and 8mm videotapes don't work worth beans. Anyone know if later 8mm media contained an ID burst like DDS media? --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 23 12:15:11 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 10:15:11 -0700 Subject: 8 mm tapes In-Reply-To: <4C9B2770.6037.204A9A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C98C05A.5020300@bitsavers.org>, , <4C9B2770.6037.204A9A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C9B28AF.25719.25272B@cclist.sydex.com> Sorry List, that last message to Dwight was supposed to be off-list. --Chuck From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu Sep 23 12:18:50 2010 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 13:18:50 -0400 Subject: DIP packages & the 555 Message-ID: My favorite use for the 555 that I ever saw, was in a homebrew paper tape reader in Byte or PE in the mid-70's. The timing function wasn't used at all; only the Schmitt trigger function used. Default 555 Schmitt trigger action is at 1/3Vcc and 2/3Vcc; just brilliant! Tim. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 23 12:23:36 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 10:23:36 -0700 Subject: DIP packages & the 555 In-Reply-To: <4C9B5ED1.8050706@neurotica.com> References: , <23ad9329bc3ec48becf89c95bab2a8e4@cs.ubc.ca>, <4C9B5ED1.8050706@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C9B2AA8.28041.2CDBF2@cclist.sydex.com> On 9/23/10 12:26 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > While looking around for a little about the 8-pin DIP package, I > checked into the 555, as it was introduced about the same time as > the 8-pin DIP appeared. This site (albeit a 2nd-source, not direct > ref) says the 555 in 8-pin DIP was introduced in 1971 (page 2): > > http://semiconductormuseum.com/Transistors/LectureHall/Camenzind/Cam > enzind_Index.htm > > > But what I was surprised about was the statement about the 555 still > selling a billion units in 2003. I thought it had faded from > popularity since the '70/'80's as I can't recall seeing one in a new > product in many years. Apparently I'm not looking hard enough. Where > are all these 555's going? 8 pin DIPs were around in the 60s for linear products. Motorola referred to them as their "Case 626" and used them for a lot of consumer products such as the MC1350 IF amplifier. There was even a 4-pin DIP (Case 629) for the MFC4000 series of transistor arrays. The NE555 for analog-minded folks is a hugely useful IC. Every couple of months it seems that there's a circuit in EDN or Electronic Design using one. I've lately seen one used as a switching boost regulator. I've often wondered if the NE555 (and 556) isn't the single most popular IC in history. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 23 12:56:32 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 10:56:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: disk platter advertising In-Reply-To: <2d5a23c74150fb436515d138752ee09b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <2d5a23c74150fb436515d138752ee09b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20100923105353.U27626@shell.lmi.net> > > I found a fun little "business card" in the form of a 5.25" disk platter > > with a business name silk-screened on it. See > > http://661.org/images/disk-ad.jpg On Thu, 23 Sep 2010, E. Groenenberg wrote: > Well the guy who handed them out may have needed a trolly or something > similar to carry then and be able to hand them out at every visit.... At anything short of Comdex, you will generally not be giving out more than a few hundred or so at any event. From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Sep 23 13:01:18 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 11:01:18 -0700 Subject: DIP packages & the 555 In-Reply-To: <4C9B2AA8.28041.2CDBF2@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <23ad9329bc3ec48becf89c95bab2a8e4@cs.ubc.ca>, <4C9B5ED1.8050706@neurotica.com> <4C9B2AA8.28041.2CDBF2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 10:24 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: DIP packages & the 555 > > On 9/23/10 12:26 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > While looking around for a little about the 8-pin DIP package, I > > checked into the 555, as it was introduced about the same time as > > the 8-pin DIP appeared. This site (albeit a 2nd-source, not direct > > ref) says the 555 in 8-pin DIP was introduced in 1971 (page 2): > > > > http://semiconductormuseum.com/Transistors/LectureHall/Camenzind/Cam > > enzind_Index.htm > > > > > > But what I was surprised about was the statement about the 555 still > > selling a billion units in 2003. I thought it had faded from > > popularity since the '70/'80's as I can't recall seeing one in a new > > product in many years. Apparently I'm not looking hard enough. Where > > are all these 555's going? > > 8 pin DIPs were around in the 60s for linear products. Motorola > referred to them as their "Case 626" and used them for a lot of > consumer products such as the MC1350 IF amplifier. There was even a > 4-pin DIP (Case 629) for the MFC4000 series of transistor arrays. > > The NE555 for analog-minded folks is a hugely useful IC. Every > couple of months it seems that there's a circuit in EDN or Electronic > Design using one. > > I've lately seen one used as a switching boost regulator. I've often > wondered if the NE555 (and 556) isn't the single most popular IC in > history. > > > --Chuck > > My favorite story about the 555 has nothing to do with its function, but rather its form. I was working at an electronics store and a customer came in with a desperate need for a 555 (a radio station was off the air until the part was replaced in some critical circuit that should probably have been redundant in the first place). I fetched our *last* 555 from the warehouse and noted that, in addition to the four legs coming out of each side, there was one coming out the end! Of course, the jokes immediately started about the male version of the chip, and we were actually reluctant to sell our 'breeding stock' 555 and speculated on how it had escaped from the 555 ranch. But alas, the customer really REALLY needed the part, and off it went.... I've never seen another like it - although to be honest, I haven't expended much (any) energy in looking for one. -- Ian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 23 12:49:29 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 18:49:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4C9A68DF.9060503@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Sep 22, 10 09:36:47 pm Message-ID: > > On 22/09/10 20:52, Tony Duell wrote: > > I am going to be very wary about buying an old Fluke instrument now. > > Since they don't have spares for old models, and since they use a lot o= > f > > custom parts which are not used elserwhere, if there are any problems I > > could be in the same situation I am in now. > > Yeah, I had a bit of a re-think when I saw the service manual for my=20 > Fluke. One custom ASIC, and a bunch of passives... Yes, I looked at the service manual for my 85 to get the part number of the display. That one you were supposed to repair to component level, but it's one SMD ASIC, a handful of precision resisotrs, etc, the display, the range swtich parts, and so on. The only source for most of the parts would be Fluke. And of course the time you tend to need spares is when the instruemnt is getting old. Whcih is when they no longer have them :-( > > (Agilent U1251A) > >> =3DA3300 ish from Farnell. > > > > I've looked at those on THe Agilent website. They look nice, but withou= > t > > seeing one and/or a full service manual (which doesn't seem to be > > available) I can't comment any further. > > There isn't a full service manual -- there's a "board swapping guide"=20 > which IIRC just tells you how to get the mainboard out. Their suggestion=20 > for aligning the mode switch? I think there are instructions on calibrating it, something which I probably don't need... > > (paraphrasing a little here, I don't have the S/M in front of me) > "When removing the Main PCB from the unit, ensure the mode switch is set=20 > to one of the OFF positions. The switch may be difficult to re-align if=20 > this instruction is not followed." > > I went with the highly scientific method of "figure out what mode it's=20 > in now, then set the switch to that mode and put it back together again". :-) This is one thing that Fluke got right on the 85. The mode switch consists of a normal swich wafer soldered to the PCB. There's a plastic splndle that goes inot that with a hexagonal socket on the top end. A wiper assembly clips on the back (it will on;y fit one way round) to contact the resistive tracks on the PCB to tall the ASIC what mode it should be in. (the wafer does things like selecting current shunts IIRC). The switch knob comes off with the top case. Now the neat part is that there's a mounted pointer on the top of that little plastic spindle, and legends mounlded itno the top PCB cover (which also carries the display. So what you do is put he spindle throug hthe wafer (I can't rememebr ifit will fit 2 ways round, if so, you have to work out which one makes sense, then clip on the wiper (that will only fit one way. Then fit the PCB covers/display. The pointer on the spindle now points to a legend on the upper PCB cover. you set the user knob to the same position (say DCV) and then put the case together. > > To my knowledge, there isn't a CLIP available for it, nor are any of the=20 CLIP? > parts on the mainboard available separately, except the fuses. Those are=20 Err, no thanks. \ppounds 300 is a considerable expenditure for me, and I expect ot be able to keep it going... What has gone wrong with the world? Surely the sort of person who buys a 300 quid multimeter may well be an electronics engineer quite capable of repairing it. > about =A320 EACH (there are two of them). That money will get you a set o= > f=20 > four Littelfuse DMM fuses (two to use and two spares), which work fine=20 Yes, I discovereed this too... > and meet all the specs of the Agilent parts except for breaking=20 > capacity... though I doubt I'll be measuring any 1kA circuits with a=20 > handheld DMM! I just hope the current range probes neer get connected straight across the mains, or if the do, then some other fuse/breaker trips first. Or across a chargerd car battey (which could easily supply 1kA). Both of those I do work with, of course, but it's never eeally worried me... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 23 12:51:00 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 18:51:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <20100922140533.I92443@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Sep 22, 10 02:11:05 pm Message-ID: > Yet, a BIG difference between us is that YOU get around to doing a much > higher percentage of your projects. I bought an original Big Trak, Do I? I've got projects that I've been working on for at least 10 years :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 23 13:09:11 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 19:09:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <4C9AC2D0.2040208@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Sep 22, 10 08:00:32 pm Message-ID: > > Nick Allen wrote: > > We are however NOT getting any static on the screen, I don't think > the flyback is outputting high voltage, > > we are working our way backwards to find the culprit. > > Why on earth would you expect to see static on the screen? It's not a TV. Does 'static' here refer to random video noise/snow (which you will not see on a monitor, only a TV), or the electrostaitc attraction of the hairs on the back of your hand which you cna feel if you put your hand near the screen The latter is possible (but not alaways detectable) on any CRT monitor or TV. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 23 13:16:35 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 11:16:35 -0700 Subject: DIP packages & the 555 In-Reply-To: References: , <4C9B2AA8.28041.2CDBF2@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4C9B3713.23772.5D5E77@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Sep 2010 at 11:01, Ian King wrote: > My favorite story about the 555 has nothing to do with its function, > but rather its form. I was working at an electronics store and a > customer came in with a desperate need for a 555 (a radio station was > off the air until the part was replaced in some critical circuit that > should probably have been redundant in the first place). I fetched > our *last* 555 from the warehouse and noted that, in addition to the > four legs coming out of each side, there was one coming out the end! > Of course, the jokes immediately started about the male version of the > chip, and we were actually reluctant to sell our 'breeding stock' 555 > and speculated on how it had escaped from the 555 ranch. But alas, > the customer really REALLY needed the part, and off it went.... I've > never seen another like it - although to be honest, I haven't expended > much (any) energy in looking for one. I wonder if this wasn't part of the leadframe that had missed being sheared off. If you carefully inspect a few older plastic DIPs, you can often spot the glint of the leadframe "tail" on the "bottom" end of the DIP. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 23 13:21:03 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 14:21:03 -0400 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C9B9A8F.7030000@neurotica.com> On 9/23/10 1:49 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> I am going to be very wary about buying an old Fluke instrument now. >>> Since they don't have spares for old models, and since they use a lot o= >> f >>> custom parts which are not used elserwhere, if there are any problems I >>> could be in the same situation I am in now. >> >> Yeah, I had a bit of a re-think when I saw the service manual for my=20 >> Fluke. One custom ASIC, and a bunch of passives... > > Yes, I looked at the service manual for my 85 to get the part number of > the display. That one you were supposed to repair to component level, but > it's one SMD ASIC, a handful of precision resisotrs, etc, the display, > the range swtich parts, and so on. The only source for most of the parts > would be Fluke. > > And of course the time you tend to need spares is when the instruemnt is > getting old. Whcih is when they no longer have them :-( What's the point? If you like the 85, buy two or three more on eBay and put them in the closet until you need them. I'm all for repair repair repair to keep things going, but for very small and relatively inexpensive (when purchased used) like handheld DMMs, crap, man...just get another one. Or three or four, if you like them so much that you want to make sure you'll never be without one. (there's a Fluke 85 on eBay right now at $85) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Sep 23 13:47:21 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 11:47:21 -0700 Subject: DIP packages & the 555 In-Reply-To: <4C9B5ED1.8050706@neurotica.com> References: <4C983186.8030605@comcast.net> <4C995BE7.1010605@brouhaha.com> <23ad9329bc3ec48becf89c95bab2a8e4@cs.ubc.ca> <4C9B5ED1.8050706@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201ef92ce3981e2f94a926acaa9853d7@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Sep 23, at 7:06 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > A common use of 555s is as a PWM generator for large battery-powered > tools such as drills, power screwdrivers, and saws. These alone > account for quite a few 555s. > There was also one in my recently-replaced dishwasher (built around > 2000) that timed one of the cycles. I think this was one of the few > times I actually saw a 555 used as a "timer". ;) OK, interesting to know. I often repair household stuff for friends but I guess just as a matter of chance/coincidence haven't come across one in newer stuff. > I designed 555s into a commercial product in 2002 and again in 2004. > I needed a ~455KHz carrier generator for an IR data transmitter, and > a 555 was the easiest way to do it. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Sep 23 13:49:05 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 11:49:05 -0700 Subject: DIP packages & the 555 In-Reply-To: <4C9B2AA8.28041.2CDBF2@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <23ad9329bc3ec48becf89c95bab2a8e4@cs.ubc.ca>, <4C9B5ED1.8050706@neurotica.com> <4C9B2AA8.28041.2CDBF2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <14275b247c5df123fa46a9004040cc0f@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Sep 23, at 10:23 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9/23/10 12:26 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> While looking around for a little about the 8-pin DIP package, I >> checked into the 555, as it was introduced about the same time as >> the 8-pin DIP appeared. This site (albeit a 2nd-source, not direct >> ref) says the 555 in 8-pin DIP was introduced in 1971 (page 2): >> >> http://semiconductormuseum.com/Transistors/LectureHall/Camenzind/Cam >> enzind_Index.htm >> >> >> But what I was surprised about was the statement about the 555 still >> selling a billion units in 2003. I thought it had faded from >> popularity since the '70/'80's as I can't recall seeing one in a new >> product in many years. Apparently I'm not looking hard enough. Where >> are all these 555's going? > > 8 pin DIPs were around in the 60s for linear products. Motorola > referred to them as their "Case 626" and used them for a lot of > consumer products such as the MC1350 IF amplifier. There was even a > 4-pin DIP (Case 629) for the MFC4000 series of transistor arrays. Cases 626 & 629 are not present in the 1969 Motorola Databook, however. From what I see the devices you mention are 70's products. In my (limited) search the earliest mention or ref for use of the 8-pin I have found is 1971 (the 555). > The NE555 for analog-minded folks is a hugely useful IC. Every > couple of months it seems that there's a circuit in EDN or Electronic > Design using one. > > I've lately seen one used as a switching boost regulator. I've often > wondered if the NE555 (and 556) isn't the single most popular IC in > history. The web site mentioned suggests that is so. I've been repairing some modern stuff lately for friends (ipod, cell phone, laptop, digital cameras) so I'm not completely stuck in dealing with hardware from the past, but recent uses of the 555 have escaped me. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 23 13:49:46 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 11:49:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100923113826.L27626@shell.lmi.net> > > Yet, a BIG difference between us is that YOU get around to doing a much > > higher percentage of your projects. I bought an original Big Trak, On Thu, 23 Sep 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > Do I? I've got projects that I've been working on for at least 10 years :-) Yes, you do! I've got stuff in the back of my refrigerator much older than that. I've got projects that I've NOT been working on for almost half a century :-) From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 23 13:58:22 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 14:58:22 -0400 Subject: DIP packages & the 555 In-Reply-To: <14275b247c5df123fa46a9004040cc0f@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <23ad9329bc3ec48becf89c95bab2a8e4@cs.ubc.ca>, <4C9B5ED1.8050706@neurotica.com> <4C9B2AA8.28041.2CDBF2@cclist.sydex.com> <14275b247c5df123fa46a9004040cc0f@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4C9BA34E.4050102@neurotica.com> On 9/23/10 2:49 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > The web site mentioned suggests that is so. I've been repairing some > modern stuff lately for friends (ipod, cell phone, laptop, digital > cameras) so I'm not completely stuck in dealing with hardware from the > past, but recent uses of the 555 have escaped me. They're just not much used in computers or "computery" things. (like everything you mentioned above) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 14:02:03 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 15:02:03 -0400 Subject: DIP packages & the 555 In-Reply-To: <4C9BA34E.4050102@neurotica.com> References: <23ad9329bc3ec48becf89c95bab2a8e4@cs.ubc.ca> <4C9B5ED1.8050706@neurotica.com> <4C9B2AA8.28041.2CDBF2@cclist.sydex.com> <14275b247c5df123fa46a9004040cc0f@cs.ubc.ca> <4C9BA34E.4050102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 9/23/10, Dave McGuire wrote: > They're just not much used in computers or "computery" things. (like > everything you mentioned above) Lately, I'm sure that's true, but IIRC seeing them in the late 1970s and early 1980s as timed one-shots on reset circuits on microprocessors. I only ever used them for audio noisemakers and LED blinkers until the past year or two when I started dabbling in PWM. I read all I can find about them and learn something every time I do - the on-chip design may be simple, but the the applications are myriad and complex. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 23 14:04:59 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 12:04:59 -0700 Subject: DIP packages & the 555 In-Reply-To: <14275b247c5df123fa46a9004040cc0f@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <4C9B2AA8.28041.2CDBF2@cclist.sydex.com>, <14275b247c5df123fa46a9004040cc0f@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4C9B426B.11014.89B04A@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Sep 2010 at 11:49, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Cases 626 & 629 are not present in the 1969 Motorola Databook, > however. > From what I see the devices you mention are 70's products. In my > (limited) search the earliest mention or ref for use of the 8-pin I > have found is 1971 (the 555). They are in my big brown 2nd edition 1969 moto databook. Go to the section labeled "Consumer Products" and have a gander. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 23 14:06:43 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 15:06:43 -0400 Subject: DIP packages & the 555 In-Reply-To: References: <23ad9329bc3ec48becf89c95bab2a8e4@cs.ubc.ca> <4C9B5ED1.8050706@neurotica.com> <4C9B2AA8.28041.2CDBF2@cclist.sydex.com> <14275b247c5df123fa46a9004040cc0f@cs.ubc.ca> <4C9BA34E.4050102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C9BA543.4090803@neurotica.com> On 9/23/10 3:02 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> They're just not much used in computers or "computery" things. (like >> everything you mentioned above) > > Lately, I'm sure that's true, but IIRC seeing them in the late 1970s > and early 1980s as timed one-shots on reset circuits on > microprocessors. Yep. I should've qualified my statement above to include the term "modern". > I only ever used them for audio noisemakers and LED blinkers until the > past year or two when I started dabbling in PWM. I read all I can > find about them and learn something every time I do - the on-chip > design may be simple, but the the applications are myriad and complex. It really is an amazing circuit. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Sep 23 14:09:36 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 12:09:36 -0700 Subject: DIP packages & the 555 In-Reply-To: <4C9B3713.23772.5D5E77@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4C9B2AA8.28041.2CDBF2@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C9B3713.23772.5D5E77@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 11:17 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: DIP packages & the 555 > > On 23 Sep 2010 at 11:01, Ian King wrote: > > > My favorite story about the 555 has nothing to do with its function, > > but rather its form. I was working at an electronics store and a > > customer came in with a desperate need for a 555 (a radio station was > > off the air until the part was replaced in some critical circuit that > > should probably have been redundant in the first place). I fetched > > our *last* 555 from the warehouse and noted that, in addition to the > > four legs coming out of each side, there was one coming out the end! > > Of course, the jokes immediately started about the male version of > the > > chip, and we were actually reluctant to sell our 'breeding stock' 555 > > and speculated on how it had escaped from the 555 ranch. But alas, > > the customer really REALLY needed the part, and off it went.... I've > > never seen another like it - although to be honest, I haven't > expended > > much (any) energy in looking for one. > > I wonder if this wasn't part of the leadframe that had missed being > sheared off. If you carefully inspect a few older plastic DIPs, you > can often spot the glint of the leadframe "tail" on the "bottom" end > of the DIP. > > --Chuck > I'm sure that's the explanation - but I have an odd sense of humor. :-) From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Sep 23 14:11:16 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 12:11:16 -0700 Subject: [insert subject here] (was RE: Multimeter recomendations) In-Reply-To: <20100923113826.L27626@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100923113826.L27626@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: This is the 84th entry in this thread, and it hasn't been on topic for at least half that. Can the next contributor please change the subject line? > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 11:50 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Multimeter recomendations > > > > Yet, a BIG difference between us is that YOU get around to doing a > much > > > higher percentage of your projects. I bought an original Big Trak, > > On Thu, 23 Sep 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > Do I? I've got projects that I've been working on for at least 10 > years :-) > > Yes, you do! > I've got stuff in the back of my refrigerator much older than that. > > I've got projects that I've NOT been working on for almost half a > century :-) > > > > > > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Sep 23 14:23:51 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 12:23:51 -0700 Subject: DIP packages & the 555 In-Reply-To: <4C9B426B.11014.89B04A@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4C9B2AA8.28041.2CDBF2@cclist.sydex.com>, <14275b247c5df123fa46a9004040cc0f@cs.ubc.ca> <4C9B426B.11014.89B04A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <027fe39bd86e4cc65e3a33d4d5db52e3@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Sep 23, at 12:04 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 23 Sep 2010 at 11:49, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> Cases 626 & 629 are not present in the 1969 Motorola Databook, >> however. >> From what I see the devices you mention are 70's products. In my >> (limited) search the earliest mention or ref for use of the 8-pin I >> have found is 1971 (the 555). > > They are in my big brown 2nd edition 1969 moto databook. Go to the > section labeled "Consumer Products" and have a gander. > Curious, I have: The Semiconductor Data Book Motorola Semiconductor Products 4th Edition, June 1969 (on back cover): 4552 Printed in USA 7-69 WAK (also big & brown) I don't see a separate Consumer Products section, although the MC1303 stereo preamp and MC1325 chroma demodulator (the only 1300 series devices listed) are present with the linear ICs. In the packaging section the last case number listed is Case 620. (?) From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Sep 23 14:30:08 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 21:30:08 +0200 Subject: [insert subject here]Stuff in the frig ? (was RE: Multimeter recomendations) Message-ID: <003101cb5b55$bed3cb10$3c7b6130$@xs4all.nl> This is the 84th entry in this thread, and it hasn't been on topic for at least half that. Can the next contributor please change the subject line? > > Do I? I've got projects that I've been working on for at least 10 > years :-) > > Yes, you do! > I've got stuff in the back of my refrigerator much older than that. Ahh.. evolution experiments, does it walk and talk yet ?? > I've got projects that I've NOT been working on for almost half a > century :-) Woow, I don't have those.. I'm married ;-) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 23 14:28:35 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 13:28:35 -0600 Subject: [insert subject here] (was RE: Multimeter recomendations) In-Reply-To: References: <20100923113826.L27626@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C9BAA63.9020704@jetnet.ab.ca> On 23/09/2010 1:11 PM, Ian King wrote: > This is the 84th entry in this thread, and it hasn't been on topic for at least half that. Can the next contributor please change the subject line? > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin >> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 11:50 AM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Multimeter recomendations >> >>>> Yet, a BIG difference between us is that YOU get around to doing a >> much >>>> higher percentage of your projects. I bought an original Big Trak, >> On Thu, 23 Sep 2010, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Do I? I've got projects that I've been working on for at least 10 >> years :-) >> >> Yes, you do! >> I've got stuff in the back of my refrigerator much older than that. >> >> I've got projects that I've NOT been working on for almost half a >> century :-) Welll for me that would be ... open a lemonade stand :) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Sep 23 14:35:59 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 12:35:59 -0700 Subject: DIP packages & the 555 In-Reply-To: <4C9BA34E.4050102@neurotica.com> References: , <23ad9329bc3ec48becf89c95bab2a8e4@cs.ubc.ca>, <4C9B5ED1.8050706@neurotica.com> <4C9B2AA8.28041.2CDBF2@cclist.sydex.com> <14275b247c5df123fa46a9004040cc0f@cs.ubc.ca> <4C9BA34E.4050102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <723a3279c17f114ecc2fb3948fc764d3@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Sep 23, at 11:58 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 9/23/10 2:49 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> The web site mentioned suggests that is so. I've been repairing some >> modern stuff lately for friends (ipod, cell phone, laptop, digital >> cameras) so I'm not completely stuck in dealing with hardware from the >> past, but recent uses of the 555 have escaped me. > > They're just not much used in computers or "computery" things. > (like everything you mentioned above) > No, I wouldn't expect to see them in those things, but, off the top of my head, in the last couple of months I have also repaired for friends: - water pump (microcontroller) - simple valve control system - jigsaw (not variable speed so I guess I just missed with that one) - battery chargers (op amps and microcontrollers) - a couple of switching power supplies in things like DVD players Someday I expect somebody will throw a battery-powered drill at me to repair - maybe then. From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Sep 23 13:51:40 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 14:51:40 -0400 Subject: DIP packages & the 555 In-Reply-To: References: <23ad9329bc3ec48becf89c95bab2a8e4@cs.ubc.ca> <4C9B5ED1.8050706@neurotica.com> <4C9B2AA8.28041.2CDBF2@cclist.sydex.com> <14275b247c5df123fa46a9004040cc0f@cs.ubc.ca> <4C9BA34E.4050102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C9BA1BC.2040801@verizon.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 9/23/10, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> They're just not much used in computers or "computery" things. (like >> everything you mentioned above) >> > > Lately, I'm sure that's true, but IIRC seeing them in the late 1970s > and early 1980s as timed one-shots on reset circuits on > microprocessors. > They are still quite popular as they are common and cheap. Its only recently that other more specialized devices have edged them out. However it was a mainstay in power supplies and are still see there and many other places. > I only ever used them for audio noisemakers and LED blinkers until the > past year or two when I started dabbling in PWM. I read all I can > find about them and learn something every time I do - the on-chip > design may be simple, but the the applications are myriad and complex. > > I've used them as system reset timers and sequencers, Power sequencers, tone generators and sequential timing logic. Another use was tone/frequency dividers. I've used them to pump up or invert power bus voltages for low power analog use or drive transistors and MOSFETs for high power voltage conversion. My favorite use is window detector for saturation tape playback circuit. It's one of those what can't you do with it parts. Allison > -ethan > > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Sep 23 14:49:53 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 12:49:53 -0700 Subject: DIP packages & the 555 In-Reply-To: <4C9BA543.4090803@neurotica.com> References: <23ad9329bc3ec48becf89c95bab2a8e4@cs.ubc.ca> <4C9B5ED1.8050706@neurotica.com> <4C9B2AA8.28041.2CDBF2@cclist.sydex.com> <14275b247c5df123fa46a9004040cc0f@cs.ubc.ca> <4C9BA34E.4050102@neurotica.com> <4C9BA543.4090803@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <52a6683e9ad8926800b2a6b9c96d3d7b@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Sep 23, at 12:06 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 9/23/10 3:02 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> I only ever used them for audio noisemakers and LED blinkers until the >> past year or two when I started dabbling in PWM. I read all I can >> find about them and learn something every time I do - the on-chip >> design may be simple, but the the applications are myriad and complex. > > It really is an amazing circuit. > I think my favorite observed application was a series of them used as touch-sensitive switches for preset station selection in a mid-1970's Sherwood FM tuner. It was the type of app that might get mentioned in some book or article as an idea, but not likely to be used in real-world production. I kind of wonder how they stood up in those FM tuners in high-static climates/environments. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 15:30:11 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 15:30:11 -0500 Subject: disk platter advertising In-Reply-To: <2d5a23c74150fb436515d138752ee09b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <2d5a23c74150fb436515d138752ee09b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4C9BB8D3.7020601@gmail.com> E. Groenenberg wrote: > Well the guy who handed them out may have needed a trolly or something > similar to carry then and be able to hand them out at every visit.... Take one, and lots of backups on tape... :-) From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 23 16:07:27 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 14:07:27 -0700 Subject: DIP packages & the 555 In-Reply-To: <027fe39bd86e4cc65e3a33d4d5db52e3@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <4C9B426B.11014.89B04A@cclist.sydex.com>, <027fe39bd86e4cc65e3a33d4d5db52e3@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4C9B5F1F.14091.F9CEBE@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Sep 2010 at 12:23, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I don't see a separate Consumer Products section, although the MC1303 > stereo preamp and MC1325 chroma demodulator (the only 1300 series > devices listed) are present with the linear ICs. In the packaging > section the last case number listed is Case 620. Mine is a hard-cover "The Microelectronics Data Book" Copyright (C) 1969 2nd Edition, December, 1969 About 2.25 inches thick. About 3 times the size of the 1968 edition. Includes a section on MOS (MC1124L MC1141G, MC1150L, MC1151L) and Memories (MC1036, MC1037, MC4004, MC4005) as well as a "Microwave Device" section with the MCH5800 chip inductors and the MCH5880 chip resistors). --Chuck From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 16:40:06 2010 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 22:40:06 +0100 Subject: disk platter advertising In-Reply-To: <4C9BB8D3.7020601@gmail.com> References: <2d5a23c74150fb436515d138752ee09b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4C9BB8D3.7020601@gmail.com> Message-ID: A similar but different one given out in the UK at the Electronics Design Show in 1991 was from Allegro Microsystems on a slice of silicon. I just put it on the scanner but the resulting scan does not do it justice http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/Allegro.jpeg if anyone knows Allegro/Sprague mask numbers it has 003793P AP82248A 89 at the top edge Dave Caroline On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 9:30 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > E. Groenenberg wrote: >> >> Well the guy who handed them out may have needed a trolly or something >> similar to carry then and be able to hand them out at every visit.... > > Take one, and lots of backups on tape... :-) > > > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Sep 23 17:09:52 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 15:09:52 -0700 Subject: DIP packages & the 555 In-Reply-To: <4C9B5F1F.14091.F9CEBE@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4C9B426B.11014.89B04A@cclist.sydex.com>, <027fe39bd86e4cc65e3a33d4d5db52e3@cs.ubc.ca> <4C9B5F1F.14091.F9CEBE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <7fdc1dce29856d9ef319db8a50e8524e@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Sep 23, at 2:07 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 23 Sep 2010 at 12:23, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> I don't see a separate Consumer Products section, although the MC1303 >> stereo preamp and MC1325 chroma demodulator (the only 1300 series >> devices listed) are present with the linear ICs. In the packaging >> section the last case number listed is Case 620. > > Mine is a hard-cover "The Microelectronics Data Book" > Copyright (C) 1969 > 2nd Edition, December, 1969 > > About 2.25 inches thick. About 3 times the size of the 1968 edition. > Includes a section on MOS (MC1124L MC1141G, MC1150L, MC1151L) and > Memories (MC1036, MC1037, MC4004, MC4005) as well as a "Microwave > Device" section with the MCH5800 chip inductors and the MCH5880 chip > resistors). I guess what I have is a 'full-line' catalog, it includes diodes and transistors but only lists or has one-page entries (not full specs) for ICs, while what you have is the more detailed specs and datasheets for ICs. Most, but not all, of the devices you mention are listed in the book I have. In any event, perhaps we have narrowed down the intro of the 8-pin DIP to the latter half of 1969, for Motorola at least. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 23 17:46:59 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 15:46:59 -0700 Subject: DIP packages & the 555 In-Reply-To: <7fdc1dce29856d9ef319db8a50e8524e@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <4C9B5F1F.14091.F9CEBE@cclist.sydex.com>, <7fdc1dce29856d9ef319db8a50e8524e@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4C9B7673.30605.154ED86@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Sep 2010 at 15:09, Brent Hilpert wrote: > In any event, perhaps we have narrowed down the intro of the 8-pin DIP > to the latter half of 1969, for Motorola at least. Seems reasonable to me. The remarkable thing about Motorola's databooks from that time was that they were lacking completely and utterly in page numbering. Not even the appnote pages were numbered. The only way to find what you were looking for in a section was to leaf through the pages one by one. Perhaps that was by design. --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Sep 23 23:34:30 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 21:34:30 -0700 Subject: 8 mm tapes In-Reply-To: <4C9B2770.6037.204A9A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C98C05A.5020300@bitsavers.org>, , <4C9A83ED.17716.30086BC@cclist.sydex.com>, , , <4C9B2770.6037.204A9A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Hi Two or three tapes would be more than I'd expect to ever use. My address: Dwight Elvey 784 Corlista dr San Jose, California. 95128 When I get the box, I'll send back the shipping and a floppy with the Canon Cat format and data on. Dwight > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 10:09:52 -0700 > Subject: RE: 8 mm tapes > > On 23 Sep 2010 at 6:36, dwight elvey wrote: > > > > > Hi Chuck > > That would be great. Would it still work OK as the spec says > > 112m? I can buy three 160 EXABYTE labled tapes > > on ebay for not a hole lot as well. I own you a disk > > from the Canon Cat so you can look at it as well. > > I tend to get side tracked. > > So, what all seem to be saying is that there is no > > special length requirement. I don't have to get exactly > > 112m tapes? > > Dwight > > Hi Dwight, > > Would you rather have the 112m tapes? I've got a bunch of those too, > but I preferred the 90m ones as they're a bit sturdier (thicker > substrate). Length isn't critical for the drive--Exabyte even sold > 60m tapes for their drives. > > Give me your mailing address and I'll pack a small flat-rate USPS box > full of them. $5 to cover shipping is all I'd ask. > > --Chuck > > P.S. That's the awful thing about doing media conversion--stuff > seems to pile up as no one wants it back. I've got boxes and boxes > of 5.25" floppies from old customer jobs, for example. My latest job > involves a pile of hard-sector 8" floppies. Your 8mm tapes, however, > will be new--only the carboard packaging removed to save space. > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Sep 24 00:03:59 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 22:03:59 -0700 Subject: 8 mm tapes In-Reply-To: References: <4C98C05A.5020300@bitsavers.org>, ,,<4C9A83ED.17716.30086BC@cclist.sydex.com>, , , , , <4C9B2770.6037.204A9A@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: Sorry All I just made the same mistake Chuck did. How silly of me. Dwight > From: dkelvey at hotmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: 8 mm tapes > Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 21:34:30 -0700 > > > Hi > Two or three tapes would be more than I'd expect to ever use. > My address: > ---snip--- From jws at jwsss.com Thu Sep 23 01:49:33 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 23:49:33 -0700 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <4C9AC92B.2060306@comcast.net> References: <4C9AC2D0.2040208@brouhaha.com> <4C9AC92B.2060306@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4C9AF87D.70409@jwsss.com> On 9/22/2010 8:27 PM, Nick Allen wrote: > Not SEE static, but feel static > > Nick, and others with Alto experience, I wonder if the system has control over the video, and it may not fire until the firmware is running, and ready for the display. I had an experience with one in El Segundo at the XDS facility there years ago, and played with a graphics program. One thing we did was turn on one bit with the screen black (all 0, I assume) and then turn off one bit with the screen white, just to see if it was noticeable. I don't know if the program, whatever it was had control over the scan or not, but it is possible that was firmware controlled. If the monitor schematics exist, you might need to see if there is a control that turned on the video, which may fire the high voltage on demand. Jim From jws at jwsss.com Thu Sep 23 09:52:37 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 07:52:37 -0700 Subject: 8 mm tapes In-Reply-To: <4C9B59A6.8030309@neurotica.com> References: <4C98C05A.5020300@bitsavers.org> <4C9AC2D0.2040208@brouhaha.com> <201009230939.49441.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4C9B59A6.8030309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C9B69B5.1090301@jwsss.com> On 9/23/2010 6:44 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 9/23/10 9:39 AM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > "Write-only media", yes. I've never seen a tape as unreliable as an > 8200/8500. > > -Dave > I have tapes that are 20 years old. All are readable. The error rate is lower than with 1/2" though the 1/2" tapes can be manually nursed back by alignment play. I used video tapes in the 8200's w/o any problem. All are still readable. Sample size was about 30 tapes in my case, not hundreds. YMMV Jim From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 16:57:45 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 17:57:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 8 mm tapes In-Reply-To: <4C9B58FB.7070709@neurotica.com> References: <4C98C05A.5020300@bitsavers.org> <4C98CF4B.5090505@comcast.net>, <4C9AC2D0.2040208@brouhaha.com> <4C9B58FB.7070709@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Sep 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 9/23/10 12:32 AM, dwight elvey wrote: >> I've added a scsi tape drive to my collection. I hope to use >> it with my Sparcbook. It is a Sun box with a sticker on it saying >> that it is a EXB-8500C drive. Do I need special 8mm tapes >> with it? How do I know what tapes will work with it? >> I've never dealt with these drives before. > > The 8200 (2.3GB) could use standard video tapes, but the 8500 (5GB) > requires data tapes. I tried video tapes in the 8500 when it came out, but > the error rates were horrendous. And, I don't want to dump cold water on anyone's backup plans, but I've found the 8mm DAT drives are by far the least reliable of any tape system ever used here. Not necessarily in terms of data integrity, but in terms of the _&)(*^^ drive itself dropping dead or developing problems. Probably threw a half dozen of them away in the past ten years. I have two working that I keep around only for laughs and data recovery. Steve -- From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri Sep 24 01:25:27 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 08:25:27 +0200 Subject: disk platter advertising In-Reply-To: <4C9BB8D3.7020601@gmail.com> References: <2d5a23c74150fb436515d138752ee09b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4C9BB8D3.7020601@gmail.com> Message-ID: > E. Groenenberg wrote: >> Well the guy who handed them out may have needed a trolly or something >> similar to carry then and be able to hand them out at every visit.... > > Take one, and lots of backups on tape... :-) Definately :) But who knows, that the same company used 5.25" platters a year or 2 later, just to show that you could get more bits on less surface. -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 24 08:43:55 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 09:43:55 -0400 Subject: 8 mm tapes In-Reply-To: <4C9B69B5.1090301@jwsss.com> References: <4C98C05A.5020300@bitsavers.org> <4C9AC2D0.2040208@brouhaha.com> <201009230939.49441.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4C9B59A6.8030309@neurotica.com> <4C9B69B5.1090301@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4C9CAB1B.3040800@neurotica.com> On 9/23/10 10:52 AM, jim s wrote: >> >> "Write-only media", yes. I've never seen a tape as unreliable as an >> 8200/8500. > > I have tapes that are 20 years old. All are readable. The error rate is > lower than with 1/2" though the 1/2" tapes can be manually nursed back > by alignment play. > > I used video tapes in the 8200's w/o any problem. All are still readable. > > Sample size was about 30 tapes in my case, not hundreds. YMMV MMDV (My Mileage Definitely Varied) :) I too have some that are readable, mostly from Exabyte 8200s (2.3GB) but some from 8500s (5GB). At least they were still readable a few years ago. These were definitely the exception though. The company I worked for around '92 had an 8200 and a bunch of video tapes when I got there, but had never set it up. My first results were ok, but the second set of tapes were full of errors. I guess the first time I just got lucky. We got into the habit of running a head-cleaning tape after every two or three uses of the drive; that helped a bit. My boss insisted on getting an 8500, though I wasn't convinced of the efficacy of the technology. I wanted to just stick with our trusty QIC-150 and use a bunch of tapes for incremental backups. He wanted full backups every time (I think he didn't really understand the incremental backup concept) which made the 150MB QIC-150 tapes impractical. Results with video tapes for the 8500 were terrible; not a single tape worked well. We bought data-grade tapes (Sony QG-112M I think) and that improved things, but it was still pretty bad. At my next company we had a brief dabbling with an 8200 but replaced it with a 4mm DAT, with which I had had some experience at a small consulting job. I liked DAT at the time, but hadn't really put volumes of data through it. I wish I had, because I fought tooth and nail to get us a DAT drive at that company, but boy was that a mistake. They were only marginally more reliable than the 8mm Exabytes all told. It took a few years of running double backups until we got a truly reliable tape system: DLT. That was 1995, and I am still sold on DLT (and its descendants) now. Super fast, super reliable. My home network's backups are running to a 64-tape juke with four SDLT-220 drives. I also found your comment regarding 1/2" tapes interesting. I'm assuming you mean 9-track, as there are many 1/2" tapes that aren't. In my experience ("mileage"! ;)) 9-track is the only tape format that's anywhere near as reliable as a DLT. Of course we're talking 150MB vs. 200+GB per tape (for my current drives) so it's very much apples and oranges. 9-track tape reliability depends very much on the particular drive in use. (though I suppose that's true for any kind of tape) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 24 08:47:21 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 09:47:21 -0400 Subject: 8 mm tapes In-Reply-To: References: <4C98C05A.5020300@bitsavers.org> <4C98CF4B.5090505@comcast.net>, <4C9AC2D0.2040208@brouhaha.com> <4C9B58FB.7070709@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C9CABE9.7090403@neurotica.com> On 9/23/10 5:57 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: >>> I've added a scsi tape drive to my collection. I hope to use >>> it with my Sparcbook. It is a Sun box with a sticker on it saying >>> that it is a EXB-8500C drive. Do I need special 8mm tapes >>> with it? How do I know what tapes will work with it? >>> I've never dealt with these drives before. >> >> The 8200 (2.3GB) could use standard video tapes, but the 8500 (5GB) >> requires data tapes. I tried video tapes in the 8500 when it came out, >> but the error rates were horrendous. > > And, I don't want to dump cold water on anyone's backup plans, but I've > found the 8mm DAT drives are by far the least reliable of any tape > system ever used here. Not necessarily in terms of data integrity, but > in terms of the _&)(*^^ drive itself dropping dead or developing problems. > > Probably threw a half dozen of them away in the past ten years. I have > two working that I keep around only for laughs and data recovery. There is no 8mm DAT. Do you mean 8mm Exabyte or 4mm DAT? Not that it makes much difference, as one is just about as bad as the other. I will never go near helical-scan media again. Give me DLT, SDLT, and LTO and I'll be happy. It's also kinda cool (for me) that DLT is a direct descendant of my old favorite: the DEC TK-50. Yes, they're slow, finicky, and horribly unreliable, but I have a lot of good memories from my later childhood days hacking with TK-50s with my friends/mentors Ernie Perez, Bob Mader, and Mike Santiago. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rwadamson at hotmail.com Fri Sep 24 04:49:53 2010 From: rwadamson at hotmail.com (Bob Adamson) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 09:49:53 +0000 Subject: Switch cleaning Message-ID: I'm restoring a couple of RK05s which I haven't used for a few years. The rocker switches have lost their springiness and the contacts are a bit hit and miss. I don't really fancy trying any disassembly as I think this is likely to be fatal. Any recommendations for the best approach and materials (available in UK)? Thanks Bob From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Sep 24 10:22:40 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 11:22:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 8 mm tapes In-Reply-To: <4C9CABE9.7090403@neurotica.com> References: <4C98C05A.5020300@bitsavers.org> <4C98CF4B.5090505@comcast.net>, <4C9AC2D0.2040208@brouhaha.com> <4C9B58FB.7070709@neurotica.com> <4C9CABE9.7090403@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Sep 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 9/23/10 5:57 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: >>>> I've added a scsi tape drive to my collection. I hope to use >>>> it with my Sparcbook. It is a Sun box with a sticker on it saying >>>> that it is a EXB-8500C drive. Do I need special 8mm tapes >>>> with it? How do I know what tapes will work with it? >>>> I've never dealt with these drives before. >>> >>> The 8200 (2.3GB) could use standard video tapes, but the 8500 (5GB) >>> requires data tapes. I tried video tapes in the 8500 when it came out, >>> but the error rates were horrendous. >> >> And, I don't want to dump cold water on anyone's backup plans, but I've >> found the 8mm DAT drives are by far the least reliable of any tape >> system ever used here. Not necessarily in terms of data integrity, but >> in terms of the _&)(*^^ drive itself dropping dead or developing problems. >> >> Probably threw a half dozen of them away in the past ten years. I have >> two working that I keep around only for laughs and data recovery. > > There is no 8mm DAT. Do you mean 8mm Exabyte or 4mm DAT? Slip of the brain... 8mm Exabyte, of course. Interestingly enough, I never had much trouble at all with the 4mm drives. Go figure. Haven't used any of the rotary head drives much since getting my first DLT in 2005 or so. > Not that it makes much difference, as one is just about as bad as the > other. I will never go near helical-scan media again. Give me DLT, SDLT, > and LTO and I'll be happy. We violently agree on that point... I used DLT7000 drives for a few years until I grew tired of changing tapes every 1/2 hour. Currently quite happy with the LTO-2 units. The eBay price-point is just right and I was able to pickup a plastic storage-bin full of tapes for $20 at a flea market. The tapes track usage and none of them were anywhere near the point where I'd worry about data integrity. Steve -- From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Fri Sep 24 10:33:47 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 10:33:47 -0500 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <20100922114825.S88355@shell.lmi.net> References: <40d694ae78e471c926ea2d5d7b521010.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> <20100922114825.S88355@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C9CC4DB.20903@tx.rr.com> On 9/22/2010 2:03 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Somehow, the absolute basics of even working with threaded fasteners have >>> fallen from the educational system, and people are re-inventing basic >>> normal techniques. >>> When is the demo on how to suck eggs? > > On Wed, 22 Sep 2010, Jeff Walther wrote: >> My experience is that most folks don't know what one means when one uses >> an expression about sucking eggs. I thought everyone knew the, "Don't >> teach your grandmother..." expression, but apparently familiarity with it >> is kind of rare. At least around here. > > True. > But, . . . > is there a correlation (non-causal) between those who do not know the old > saying(s), and those who are re-inventing remedial basic techniques for > working with threaded fasteners? On reflecting back, I don't believe anyone ever taught me (in any manner) the "turn in reverse to find the start of the thread" technique. I've done it so long now, I usually do it without even thinking about it. I suspect that I discovered the technique for myself shortly after I thoroughly cross threaded some fastener in my youth. I did get the chance to pass it on to my 42 year old daughter recently when I was helping her assemble a small computer desk. In that case the "nuts" were plastic inserts in the wood of the bottom side of the desk top, and I was unusually concerned about the possibility of cross threading one of those. She saw the advantage of the technique right away once I pointed it out. Maybe what the world needs is more/better mentors ("Elmers" as I recall in the ham radio world). > > In 30 years of college "professorship", I have seen obvious changes in > college students. > It used to be that I could start my OS class with "DOS est omnis divisa in > partes tres" and at least some of the class would understand the phrase > and the analogy. > > Is the reduction in ability to spell, or differentiate homonyms, related? Could spell checkers be to blame for some of that? > I made a license plate frame that says "UC Berkeley Aluminum" (I also > made a slightly variant one in case I ever have another British car) > Heh! I love it... I assume the frames are made of aluminum/aluminium. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 24 11:46:07 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 09:46:07 -0700 Subject: 8 mm tapes In-Reply-To: <4C9CAB1B.3040800@neurotica.com> References: <4C98C05A.5020300@bitsavers.org>, <4C9B69B5.1090301@jwsss.com>, <4C9CAB1B.3040800@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C9C735F.10041.2CE950@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Sep 2010 at 9:43, Dave McGuire wrote: > It took a few years of running double backups until we got a truly > reliable tape system: DLT. That was 1995, and I am still sold on DLT > (and its descendants) now. Super fast, super reliable. My home > network's backups are running to a 64-tape juke with four SDLT-220 > drives. We spent about 13 years recommending backup media for a number of government agencies, starting in about 1988. This was in a field application--i.e., not a permanent installation, but rather a "snatch and grab" sort of affair. At the time, we standardized on SCSI, being one of the few external- device interfaces with a standard attached to it. Intially, the most popular was the Iomega Bernoulli drives (5.25"). Heavy, yes, but very reliable and reasonably fast. A few also used the DC-600 (6150, 6250) size QIC media. Not quite as straightforward as Bernoulli, but all in all, not bad. DDS (4mm tape) was a nightmare. About all the devices had going for them was cost (for read-after-write medium, it was pretty good) and capacity. I've not found long-term (>10 years) stability to be very good. 8mm (Exabyte) tape was most popular with the larger agencies and performed quite well. The biggest problem is that it was Exabyte- proprietary and so the drives were single-sourced. After that, the next step was high-capacity MO (e.g. PMC Apex 4GB). The medium wasn't bad, but the drives weren't made for field use and failed frequently. PMC got to be overwhelmed with their swap-repair service and eventually declared bankruptcy. DLT was briefly popular (reliability was great), media and drive cost was high, but using commodity hard drives eventually won out. For me, there are always surprises. I recently came across a cache of backup tapes I made in 1988 using an Irwin (EZTape?) DC-1000 minicart drive. Every single one of the dozen backups was readable. Sometimes, you just never can tell. But you can keep your Datasonix Pereos drives. One of the largest publicity blitzes for a non-working product that I've ever seen. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 24 11:50:29 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 09:50:29 -0700 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4C9CC4DB.20903@tx.rr.com> References: , <20100922114825.S88355@shell.lmi.net>, <4C9CC4DB.20903@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4C9C7465.5149.30E69D@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Sep 2010 at 10:33, Charlie Carothers wrote: > On reflecting back, I don't believe anyone ever taught me (in any > manner) the "turn in reverse to find the start of the thread" > technique. Anyone who plays a brass musical instrument with piston valves knows the technique because of the nature of valve end-caps. They're usually somewhere around 3/4 - 1" in diameter with fine machined threads--the danger of cross-threading is great. However, turning the cap anti/counter-clockwise until one hears the "click" ensures success. I suspect that most plumbers know about this when using fine-thread fittings. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Sep 24 12:31:13 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 13:31:13 -0400 Subject: Wood thread trick Message-ID: It is amazing how many people MISSED THE DAMN POINT. The original posted "trick" involves a situation where there are *no* threads left in the wood. By backing the screw out with a little pressure, eventually the wood will give at the point where the original threads were, due to how the fibers of the wood remain (not crushed, but cut). All this happens at a scale pretty much too small for the unaided eye. MInd you, the new wood screw will hold, but not well, because there just is not much good fiber left. This trick does not really work with metal - no fibers, obviously. This is *not* the same "everyone knows it" trick about backing out a screw to find the thread. -- Will From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Sep 24 12:51:47 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 12:51:47 -0500 Subject: Wood thread trick In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201009241752.o8OHq0l3099588@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 12:31 PM 9/24/2010, William Donzelli wrote: >It is amazing how many people MISSED THE DAMN POINT. So the trick is how to make a wood screw hold just long enough to make it look like everything is OK, so you can sell the item? :-) - John From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Sep 24 13:10:18 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 13:10:18 -0500 Subject: OT: wireless access solutions Message-ID: It appears as though my wireless router hub thingy has died. I need a new one. But here's the thing. I wan't to setup a smoothwall machine using some old hardware I have around. And since I'll have this, I don't need (or want) the router feature that's seems to be supplied with all these consumer grade wireless access points. What I really want is a wireless access point that simply puts everyone on the wired network, if that's possible. Ideally, I'd like to handle DHCP through the smoothwall box, although I'm willing to do static IP on the wireless devices if i need to. Worst case, I guess I could just continue the way I always have, having the wireless access point handle DHCP for the wireless devices and turning off the firewall features so that everything passes through. Of course, maybe I want that extra layer of security since WEP is so bad. But I know there's new wireless security standards tor replace WEP. Can I get away with just a wireless network board in the smoothwall machine and use that as the access point? I suspect range would suffer. As you can tell, I'm not up on any of this. I know enough to assemble a network that works. But network design and security isn't my thing. brian From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 24 13:24:12 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 11:24:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Screwing around (Was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4C9CC4DB.20903@tx.rr.com> References: <40d694ae78e471c926ea2d5d7b521010.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> <20100922114825.S88355@shell.lmi.net> <4C9CC4DB.20903@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20100924111345.S66929@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 24 Sep 2010, Charlie Carothers wrote: > On reflecting back, I don't believe anyone ever taught me (in any > manner) the "turn in reverse to find the start of the thread" technique. > I've done it so long now, I usually do it without even thinking about > it. I suspect that I discovered the technique for myself shortly after > I thoroughly cross threaded some fastener in my youth. > I did get the chance to pass it on to my 42 year old daughter recently > when I was helping her assemble a small computer desk. In that case the > "nuts" were plastic inserts in the wood of the bottom side of the desk > top, and I was unusually concerned about the possibility of cross > threading one of those. She saw the advantage of the technique right > away once I pointed it out. Maybe what the world needs is more/better > mentors ("Elmers" as I recall in the ham radio world). Ah Ha! The new generation didn't have Erector sets as kids (the snap-together plastic stuff without a plug-in motor don't count) Any significant amount of play or work with screw fasteners will eventually make it clear. Lack of adequate experience means that one will have to be TOLD such basics. Presumably the same with clockwise v counter-clockwise threads, in an almost counter-productive form. The experienced person will be assuming clockwise, whereas the totally inexperienced are more likely to try both directions. Will the loss of analog clocks have a significant effect on learning CW V CCW? > > I made a license plate frame that says "UC Berkeley Aluminum" (I also > > made a slightly variant one in case I ever have another British car) > Heh! I love it... I assume the frames are made of aluminum/aluminium. Of course! billetframes.com can make some if anybody else is similarly inclined -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Sep 24 13:32:56 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 13:32:56 -0500 Subject: OT: wireless access solutions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201009241833.o8OIXH7T001594@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 01:10 PM 9/24/2010, Brian Lanning wrote: >It appears as though my wireless router hub thingy has died. I need a >new one. But here's the thing. I wan't to setup a smoothwall machine >using some old hardware I have around. And since I'll have this, I >don't need (or want) the router feature that's seems to be supplied >with all these consumer grade wireless access points. There are consumer devices that only act as access points, such as the Netgear WG602. It accepts DHCP from another device and lets wireless devices connect to your existing network. I've heard of some who take router-and-AP devices, assign them to your desired subnet and on a static IP outside of the range assigned by your actual router, turn off DHCP serving, and don't connect anything to the WAN port, just patch it to the LAN side, (using a cross-over if it wasn't auto-sensing.) http://kb.netgear.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1080 http://www.dslreports.com/faq/11233 So yes, you could use a $35 WGR614 from Walmaret instead. - John From keithvz at verizon.net Fri Sep 24 13:42:00 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 14:42:00 -0400 Subject: OT: wireless access solutions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C9CF0F8.1020206@verizon.net> On 9/24/2010 2:10 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > It appears as though my wireless router hub thingy has died. I need a > new one. But here's the thing. I wan't to setup a smoothwall machine > using some old hardware I have around. And since I'll have this, I > don't need (or want) the router feature that's seems to be supplied > with all these consumer grade wireless access points. > > What I really want is a wireless access point that simply puts > everyone on the wired network, if that's possible. Ideally, I'd like > to handle DHCP through the smoothwall box, although I'm willing to do > static IP on the wireless devices if i need to. I'm assuming your smoothwall box will be doing the NAT. Turn off NAT and DHCP server on the router. Use the native, built-in access point functionality of pretty much any wireless router. It will connect wired and wireless machines just fine. Don't use the WAN port on the router. If you have a DSL router with built-in ADSL port, you'll need to put the router into bridge mode if it has one. If you can't disable NAT on the router, this could still work, but it's ugly to double-NAT. > Worst case, I guess I could just continue the way I always have, > having the wireless access point handle DHCP for the wireless devices > and turning off the firewall features so that everything passes > through. > > Of course, maybe I want that extra layer of security since WEP is so > bad. But I know there's new wireless security standards tor replace > WEP. Then don't run WEP. Use WPA2 or something. Keith From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 24 13:45:36 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 11:45:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wood thread trick In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100924112601.U66929@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 24 Sep 2010, William Donzelli wrote: > It is amazing how many people MISSED THE DAMN POINT. > . . . > This is *not* the same "everyone knows it" trick about backing out a > screw to find the thread. Thanks for clarifying! Sorry about the assumption. I still see them as closely related variants of the same technique - you are backing out the screw to find the residual remains of the threads. In automotive work, the competent OR EXPERIENCED wrench knows the difference between "cutting" v "rethreading"/"restoring" taps and dies, for the same reason. I do know some people who are constantly sharing "great new tips" that they have just learned, that are usually things that it is hard for me to imagine anybody not knowing - such as "start the lugnut a few turns onto the stud before using the power wrench", or "make a small pit or starter hole before drilling the full size hole", or "don't tighten any of the bolts all of the way until they are ALL snug". There are some otherwise sentient people who manage to reach adulthood before learning such things. Wonko the sane would find that amusing, along with the "wear safety goggles" boilerplate on the package of a Harbor Freight hose nozzle. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Sep 24 09:44:15 2010 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 09:44:15 -0500 Subject: Multimeter recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 19:25 -0500 9/22/10, ard wrote: >It's coming to the point where I am going to have to make my own portable >DMM to get one that I like... DMM designed by ARD? I'd buy one. I'd even buy a kit. I'd still keep my old Archerkit, though, for nostalgia. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Fri Sep 24 14:10:49 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 12:10:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: wireless access solutions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <729611.27271.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Sounds like you want a wireless bridge. I know Linksys makes one (can't remember the model #) but my father-in-law uses one to wirelessly connect his DirecTV receiver to the rest of his wireless network. ________________________________ From: Brian Lanning To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Fri, September 24, 2010 1:10:18 PM Subject: OT: wireless access solutions It appears as though my wireless router hub thingy has died. I need a new one. But here's the thing. I wan't to setup a smoothwall machine using some old hardware I have around. And since I'll have this, I don't need (or want) the router feature that's seems to be supplied with all these consumer grade wireless access points. What I really want is a wireless access point that simply puts everyone on the wired network, if that's possible. Ideally, I'd like to handle DHCP through the smoothwall box, although I'm willing to do static IP on the wireless devices if i need to. Worst case, I guess I could just continue the way I always have, having the wireless access point handle DHCP for the wireless devices and turning off the firewall features so that everything passes through. Of course, maybe I want that extra layer of security since WEP is so bad. But I know there's new wireless security standards tor replace WEP. Can I get away with just a wireless network board in the smoothwall machine and use that as the access point? I suspect range would suffer. As you can tell, I'm not up on any of this. I know enough to assemble a network that works. But network design and security isn't my thing. brian From keithvz at verizon.net Fri Sep 24 14:20:15 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 15:20:15 -0400 Subject: OT: wireless access solutions In-Reply-To: <729611.27271.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <729611.27271.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C9CF9EF.1030403@verizon.net> On 9/24/2010 3:10 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > Sounds like you want a wireless bridge. I know Linksys makes one (can't remember > the model #) but my father-in-law uses one to wirelessly connect his DirecTV > receiver to the rest of his wireless network. > Just be careful with those bridges. I bought a Linksys WET11 to connect an mp3 receiver. While it mostly works, there are a bunch of gotchas. The WET11 does some screw-ball stuff like spoofing MACs of connected devices, etc. ---- which is not configurable and can get in the way of certain applications working correctly. Keith From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 24 14:37:27 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 12:37:27 -0700 Subject: Wood thread trick In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C9C9B87.18550.C9C3BB@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Sep 2010 at 13:31, William Donzelli wrote: > MInd you, the new wood screw will hold, but not well, because there > just is not much good fiber left. This trick does not really work with > metal - no fibers, obviously. Thank you for clarifying, Will. May I assume that since most plastic isn't fibrous also, that it wouldn't work (well) on that (the original topic, after all)? I have to admit that I'd just carve a wood splint to fit, dip it in some glue and drive it into the hole, cut it off flush and treat the situation as if there was no hole to start with. --Chuck From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Sep 24 14:39:28 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 12:39:28 -0700 Subject: Backup regimen [was RE: 8 mm tapes] In-Reply-To: <4C9CAB1B.3040800@neurotica.com> References: <4C98C05A.5020300@bitsavers.org> <4C9AC2D0.2040208@brouhaha.com> <201009230939.49441.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4C9B59A6.8030309@neurotica.com> <4C9B69B5.1090301@jwsss.com> <4C9CAB1B.3040800@neurotica.com> Message-ID: From: Dave McGuire Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 6:44 AM > My boss insisted on getting an 8500, though I wasn't convinced of the > efficacy of the technology. I wanted to just stick with our trusty > QIC-150 and use a bunch of tapes for incremental backups. He wanted > full backups every time (I think he didn't really understand the > incremental backup concept) [snip] When I worked at Cisco, on the IT side of the house, we preferred doing nightly full backups, rather than the industry-standard monthly-full/ weekly-incremental/daily-incremental I was used to. Why? Because it took a *lot* less time doing a restore to a known point in time, which meant that a system down had us out of business for a couple of hours at most. This was good enough on our MIPS boxes, and even better on our HP-UX 9000/870 servers with three-way mirroring, where we could break one volume out of the mirror and do backups from it, then merge it back in. I took the same backup regimen with me to XKL when I moved north, where it saved a lot of engineering time following system crashes on the dev boxen. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Fri Sep 24 15:02:29 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 13:02:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: wireless access solutions In-Reply-To: <4C9CF9EF.1030403@verizon.net> References: <729611.27271.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4C9CF9EF.1030403@verizon.net> Message-ID: <873187.69402.qm@web83901.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> What's it spoofing... multicast? ________________________________ From: Keith Monahan To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Fri, September 24, 2010 2:20:15 PM Subject: Re: OT: wireless access solutions On 9/24/2010 3:10 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > Sounds like you want a wireless bridge. I know Linksys makes one (can't >remember > the model #) but my father-in-law uses one to wirelessly connect his DirecTV > receiver to the rest of his wireless network. > Just be careful with those bridges. I bought a Linksys WET11 to connect an mp3 receiver. While it mostly works, there are a bunch of gotchas. The WET11 does some screw-ball stuff like spoofing MACs of connected devices, etc. ---- which is not configurable and can get in the way of certain applications working correctly. Keith From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Fri Sep 24 15:14:04 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 13:14:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: wireless access solutions In-Reply-To: <873187.69402.qm@web83901.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <729611.27271.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4C9CF9EF.1030403@verizon.net> <873187.69402.qm@web83901.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <17112.65618.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> What I really meant was IGMP. ________________________________ From: geoffrey oltmans To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Fri, September 24, 2010 3:02:29 PM Subject: Re: OT: wireless access solutions What's it spoofing... multicast? ________________________________ From: Keith Monahan To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Fri, September 24, 2010 2:20:15 PM Subject: Re: OT: wireless access solutions On 9/24/2010 3:10 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > Sounds like you want a wireless bridge. I know Linksys makes one (can't >remember > the model #) but my father-in-law uses one to wirelessly connect his DirecTV > receiver to the rest of his wireless network. > Just be careful with those bridges. I bought a Linksys WET11 to connect an mp3 receiver. While it mostly works, there are a bunch of gotchas. The WET11 does some screw-ball stuff like spoofing MACs of connected devices, etc. ---- which is not configurable and can get in the way of certain applications working correctly. Keith From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Sep 24 15:27:36 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 16:27:36 -0400 Subject: Wood thread trick In-Reply-To: <201009241752.o8OHq0l3099588@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <201009241752.o8OHq0l3099588@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: > So the trick is how to make a wood screw hold just long enough to > make it look like everything is OK, so you can sell the item? ?:-) Yes, Lovejoy, that's right. -- Will From keithvz at verizon.net Fri Sep 24 15:29:34 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 16:29:34 -0400 Subject: OT: wireless access solutions In-Reply-To: <17112.65618.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <729611.27271.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4C9CF9EF.1030403@verizon.net> <873187.69402.qm@web83901.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <17112.65618.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C9D0A2E.20002@verizon.net> On 9/24/2010 4:14 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > What I really meant was IGMP. > > > > > ________________________________ > From: geoffrey oltmans > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Sent: Fri, September 24, 2010 3:02:29 PM > Subject: Re: OT: wireless access solutions > > What's it spoofing... multicast? > I don't remember the full damage of what it did, but it would essentially answer ARPs and such for the connected wired device with ITS OWN MAC ADDRESS, instead of the devices. It should be functioning as a layer-2 bridge, not touching packets. This screws with functions like DHCP. Keith From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Fri Sep 24 15:55:59 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 13:55:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: wireless access solutions In-Reply-To: <4C9D0A2E.20002@verizon.net> References: <729611.27271.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4C9CF9EF.1030403@verizon.net> <873187.69402.qm@web83901.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <17112.65618.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4C9D0A2E.20002@verizon.net> Message-ID: <425354.64936.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Well, I have seen other Linksys networking gear not play nicely too, so it may just be crappy firmware. I've got a Linksys print server that I cannot use wireless because it doesn't support WPA/WPA2 correctly. At first I thought it was a compatibility problem with my Apple Time Capsule, but I tried it with my older Linksys router (which would lock up on a fairly frequent basis after a firmware update) and it performed equally bad. ________________________________ From: Keith Monahan To: General at olddell.com; On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Fri, September 24, 2010 3:29:34 PM Subject: Re: OT: wireless access solutions On 9/24/2010 4:14 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > What I really meant was IGMP. > > > > > ________________________________ > From: geoffrey oltmans > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Sent: Fri, September 24, 2010 3:02:29 PM > Subject: Re: OT: wireless access solutions > > What's it spoofing... multicast? > I don't remember the full damage of what it did, but it would essentially answer ARPs and such for the connected wired device with ITS OWN MAC ADDRESS, instead of the devices. It should be functioning as a layer-2 bridge, not touching packets. This screws with functions like DHCP. Keith From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Sep 24 15:59:26 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 13:59:26 -0700 Subject: Screwing around (Was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <20100924111345.S66929@shell.lmi.net> References: <40d694ae78e471c926ea2d5d7b521010.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> <20100922114825.S88355@shell.lmi.net> <4C9CC4DB.20903@tx.rr.com> <20100924111345.S66929@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 2010 Sep 24, at 11:24 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 24 Sep 2010, Charlie Carothers wrote: >> On reflecting back, I don't believe anyone ever taught me (in any >> manner) the "turn in reverse to find the start of the thread" >> technique. >> I've done it so long now, I usually do it without even thinking >> about >> it. I suspect that I discovered the technique for myself shortly >> after >> I thoroughly cross threaded some fastener in my youth. >> I did get the chance to pass it on to my 42 year old daughter recently >> when I was helping her assemble a small computer desk. In that case >> the >> "nuts" were plastic inserts in the wood of the bottom side of the desk >> top, and I was unusually concerned about the possibility of cross >> threading one of those. She saw the advantage of the technique right >> away once I pointed it out. Maybe what the world needs is more/better >> mentors ("Elmers" as I recall in the ham radio world). > > Ah Ha! > The new generation didn't have Erector sets as kids (the snap-together > plastic stuff without a plug-in motor don't count) > > Any significant amount of play or work with screw fasteners will > eventually make it clear. Lack of adequate experience means that one > will > have to be TOLD such basics. Presumably the same with clockwise v > counter-clockwise threads, in an almost counter-productive form. The > experienced person will be assuming clockwise, whereas the totally > inexperienced are more likely to try both directions. Will the loss of > analog clocks have a significant effect on learning CW V CCW? There is experience and mentoring, and there is disposition. Some people are sensitive in material/tool handling and some are not. For example, back to the original topic, plastic (and less so wood) threads will last for many, many cycles, IF they aren't over-tightened. Obvious to many, but anything past snug, or the point where the turning force required begins to increase, is doing damage. Some simply try to tighten them as one would a metal thread. I find even many experienced people will tend to over-tighten, although not to that degree. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Sep 24 15:59:43 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 13:59:43 -0700 Subject: Wood thread trick In-Reply-To: <4C9C9B87.18550.C9C3BB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C9C9B87.18550.C9C3BB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <9c48eae39b43d48941d71304d025e744@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Sep 24, at 12:37 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 24 Sep 2010 at 13:31, William Donzelli wrote: > >> MInd you, the new wood screw will hold, but not well, because there >> just is not much good fiber left. This trick does not really work with >> metal - no fibers, obviously. > > Thank you for clarifying, Will. May I assume that since most plastic > isn't fibrous also, that it wouldn't work (well) on that (the > original topic, after all)? > > I have to admit that I'd just carve a wood splint to fit, dip it in > some glue and drive it into the hole, cut it off flush and treat the > situation as if there was no hole to start with. I don't know if it is still on the market but there are/were pieces of thin tin punched with a grid of rough-edge holes available for this. Cut off a little strip or two and slide down the screw hole to 'recreate' a thread. Instant and quite effective. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 24 16:37:46 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 14:37:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4C9C7465.5149.30E69D@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20100922114825.S88355@shell.lmi.net>, <4C9CC4DB.20903@tx.rr.com> <4C9C7465.5149.30E69D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100924143515.J71720@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 24 Sep 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > the technique because of the nature of valve end-caps. They're > usually somewhere around 3/4 - 1" in diameter with fine machined > threads--the danger of cross-threading is great. However, turning > the cap anti/counter-clockwise until one hears the "click" ensures > success. > I suspect that most plumbers know about this when using fine-thread > fittings. MOST plumbing is a relatively coarse thread. Screw-mount camera lenses. 39mm x 25 tpi. (39mm x 1mm is a less than perfect fit.) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 24 15:46:12 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 21:46:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <4C9AF87D.70409@jwsss.com> from "Jim Stephens" at Sep 22, 10 11:49:33 pm Message-ID: > I don't know if the program, whatever it was had control over the scan > or not, but it is possible that was firmware controlled. If the monitor > schematics exist, you might need to see if there is a control that > turned on the video, which may fire the high voltage on demand. I don't have the monitor schematics to hand (they're on bitsavers), but it's entirely possible that there will be no horizontal drive (and thus no HV) if there's no horizontal sync pulses from the Alto. Amnd that might well be software controlled. to the OP : What test gear do you have/ Do you have an EHT voltmeter (up to about 20kV)? A 'scope? A multimeter? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 24 16:14:04 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 22:14:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Switch cleaning In-Reply-To: from "Bob Adamson" at Sep 24, 10 09:49:53 am Message-ID: > > > I'm restoring a couple of RK05s which I haven't used for a few years. The r= > ocker switches have lost their springiness and the contacts are a bit hit a= > nd miss. I don't really fancy trying any disassembly as I think this is lik= It would take me some time to find them, but I may have some 'spare' switches for these drives. of course they'll be old, so they may well ahev the same problems. > ely to be fatal. Any recommendations for the best approach and materials (a= > vailable in UK)? Personally I would dismantly them. Most of the time the grease used in these sorts of switrches hardens withage, and you will not clean it out by soaking or sparying with solvent. You may well just move it elsewhere, like ont othe contacts ;-). I'vew dismantled many switches over the years, and unless there were plastic parts broken before I took them apart (the little rocker switches used for mains switching on some HP machines suffer from this), I've always got them back together again. As for solvents, I find the best thing to use to start with (in that it shifts grese and doesn;'t attack most plastics) is popan-2-ol. It's available from Mapiin in a 'Servisol' spray can. It's OK for cleaning the RK05 heads too :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 24 15:59:20 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 21:59:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4C9B9A8F.7030000@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 23, 10 02:21:03 pm Message-ID: > What's the point? If you like the 85, buy two or three more on eBay The point is that I don;'t like wating money. And I don't like throwing stuff away that could be repaired. I have no particualr love of the Fluke 85, and I don't even have a love of Fluke. The reason I asked if anyone had a dead 85 was that I have one with a dead display. If there's been a dead one out there with some other fault, then either maybe I could have bought it to extract the display and fix mine, or maybe the owner of that one would want to buy mine for parts. Either way it wuld seem to get an instrument workign again. > and put them in the closet until you need them. I'm all for repair Wait a second. This display fialed for no discenrable (to me) reason. It was OK one day, I put the meter away fairly carefully (I put it in the tool drawer, I didn;t drop it, or throw it in), next day it had lost some liquid crystal. There's no reason to believe that if I'd had a spare meter it would nevessarily still be good. And ICs do fail even when not pwered... > repair repair to keep things going, but for very small and relatively > inexpensive (when purchased used) like handheld DMMs, crap, man...just > get another one. Or three or four, if you like them so much that you > want to make sure you'll never be without one. > > (there's a Fluke 85 on eBay right now at $85) Firstly, I don;t have $85 sprre at the moment. Sad, but true. I certainly don't have 2 or 3 times that amount. Not to mention shipping (based on ther things sent to me from the States, I would estimate abotu $30 per meter). And VAT (tax). In any case, if I buy 3 old Fluke 85s on E-bay, I am getting towards the price of a new Fluke (or Agilent) meter. And at least in the case of the Flike I'd get effective at least a 10 year warranty on it. Not that I like trusting warranties, and not that I like instruments without service manuals, but it would seem a lot more sensible ot do that that stock up on old insterumnwets that may or may not have failed by the time I need them, and for which spares are unavailable. It's a pity I am not looking for a benchtop or rackmount instrument. There are plenty of thsoe from HP and/or Fluke. And they still seem to ahve real service manuals. The older ones have few, if any, custom parts (in the case of HP, you might find a 'nanoprocesosr' (HP's microcontroller), but AFAIK that was always ROMless and was used in enough other products to be able to find them quite easily [1]. Of course I can't afford them either, but at least they'd meet my other reuirements. [1] If anyone has the instruction set for this, I am looking for it... I don't get it. Some new Agilent bench DMMs have proper service manuals. With component-level scheamtics etc. They are all SMD inside, the manuals have warnings that using the wrong tools will ruin the PCB and void the warranty (which seems reasonable enough). Now why isn't such repair supported on the hendheld ones? Should I conclude that some of them are direct-on-board epoxy-capped chips? I'd expect that in a cheapo DMM, I am not at all happy about it in a 300 quid instrument. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 24 16:01:27 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 22:01:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <20100923113826.L27626@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Sep 23, 10 11:49:46 am Message-ID: > > Do I? I've got projects that I've been working on for at least 10 years :-) > > Yes, you do! > I've got stuff in the back of my refrigerator much older than that. So have I. It's called 'film' :-) > > I've got projects that I've NOT been working on for almost half a century :-) I've got one project I've been working on continually for nearly half a century. It's called 'reading'. And I don't intend to stop any time soon :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 24 16:32:04 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 22:32:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4C9C7465.5149.30E69D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 24, 10 09:50:29 am Message-ID: > Anyone who plays a brass musical instrument with piston valves knows > the technique because of the nature of valve end-caps. They're > usually somewhere around 3/4 - 1" in diameter with fine machined > threads--the danger of cross-threading is great. However, turning > the cap anti/counter-clockwise until one hears the "click" ensures > success. I do it without thinking when screwing filters onto camera lenses (0.5 or 0.75mm picth threads, 50 or so mm diameter). I guess most photogrpahers know to do that. As I seaid early, it;s second-nature to me now. I probably do it on all sorts of fittings without thinking about it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 24 16:38:44 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 22:38:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Screwing around (Was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <20100924111345.S66929@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Sep 24, 10 11:24:12 am Message-ID: > The new generation didn't have Erector sets as kids (the snap-together > plastic stuff without a plug-in motor don't count) Kids these days :-) I mentioned some months hack that I got my first electic shock before I was 2 years old. By finding a screwdriver and unscrewing a wall socket to see how it was wired. So I guess I learnt early ;-) > > Any significant amount of play or work with screw fasteners will > eventually make it clear. Lack of adequate experience means that one will > have to be TOLD such basics. Presumably the same with clockwise v > counter-clockwise threads, in an almost counter-productive form. The > experienced person will be assuming clockwise, whereas the totally > inexperienced are more likely to try both directions. Will the loss of > analog clocks have a significant effect on learning CW V CCW? The really experienced will assume a right hand thread but will check too see if there's any good reason for the theread to be left-handed, particularly if it would undo when turning it anticlockwise. There are some LH threads in calssic computers. In particular the spindle bolt in some 5.25" disk drives (like the ones used in the IBM PC/AT) re left handnd. I've seen left-handed taps and dies on sale. And of course it's easy to cut a left-hand thread on a lathe. But I have never seen LH nuts an bolts listed by any company in the UK. But I've not seriously looked for them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 24 16:44:58 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 22:44:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wood thread trick In-Reply-To: <20100924112601.U66929@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Sep 24, 10 11:45:36 am Message-ID: > I do know some people who are constantly sharing "great new tips" that > they have just learned, that are usually things that it is hard for me to > imagine anybody not knowing - such as "start the lugnut a few turns onto > the stud before using the power wrench", or "make a small pit or starter Err, don;t you mean 'Fit the wheel nuts, tighten them evenly, lower the car to the groudn, and then tighten them in a diagonal pattern to the torque given in the shop manual'. Yes, I do that _always_. > hole before drilling the full size hole", or "don't tighten any of the Use a centre punch. Or a Slocombe drill. And drill a pilot hole. And rememebr the drill tip angles are different for different materials. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 24 16:58:46 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 22:58:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <20100924143515.J71720@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Sep 24, 10 02:37:46 pm Message-ID: > Screw-mount camera lenses. 39mm x 25 tpi. (39mm x 1mm is a less than > perfect fit.) I thought Leica thread was 26 tpi, but it's been a long time since I cut one... I have no idea if the Russian Leica 'copies' were the same or 1mm pitch. Pentax/Praktica/Edixa thread is certianly 42mm * 1mm pitch. And C mount is 32 tpi. I think VP exakta is normally 0.75mm pitch (but very early ones were 0.5mm). I've not measured the Nercury, Robot or Reflex Korelle threads (to mention 3 cameras I can see from where I am sitting). All are fine emough (along with the filters I mentioend in the other message) that I always start them off by turning them anticlockwise until I feel the threds engage. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 24 17:04:53 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 15:04:53 -0700 Subject: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <20100924143515.J71720@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4C9C7465.5149.30E69D@cclist.sydex.com>, <20100924143515.J71720@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C9CBE15.23639.150BE4C@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Sep 2010 at 14:37, Fred Cisin wrote: > MOST plumbing is a relatively coarse thread. But not all--many tub drains still use fine-thread brass tube. As do many older toilet flush valves. I also seem to recall that some older gas piping is fine-thread brass, rather than black iron. But the threads are really easy to mess up. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 24 17:20:30 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 15:20:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Thread pitch (was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100924150944.F71720@shell.lmi.net> > > Screw-mount camera lenses. 39mm x 25 tpi. (39mm x 1mm is a less than > > perfect fit.) On Fri, 24 Sep 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > I thought Leica thread was 26 tpi, but it's been a long time since I cut > one... I have no idea if the Russian Leica 'copies' were the same or 1mm > pitch. Good catch! That would ALSO be a less than perfect fit! I'm pretty sure that the FED was 1mm pitch, don't know about the Zorki, or particularly the early East German counterfeit Leicas. > Pentax/Praktica/Edixa thread is certianly 42mm * 1mm pitch. But, IIRC, "T-mount" is 42mm x .75mm pitch > And C mount is 32 tpi. "CS mount" is the same, but with 5mm difference in registry (distance to film plane) Some computer parts have metric fasteners, some don't. I don't remember, but I would guess that Shugart 8" and full height 5.25" drives are not metric, but their half-height and 3.5" frives were metric? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 24 17:49:33 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 15:49:33 -0700 Subject: Thread pitch (was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <20100924150944.F71720@shell.lmi.net> References: , <20100924150944.F71720@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C9CC88D.30688.179A5EA@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Sep 2010 at 15:20, Fred Cisin wrote: > Some computer parts have metric fasteners, some don't. > I don't remember, but I would guess that Shugart 8" and full height > 5.25" drives are not metric, but their half-height and 3.5" frives > were metric? 3.5" and 5.25" hard drives were mostly 6-32. Japanese 5.25" and 3.5" floppies were mostly M3--some had two rows of holes in the casting-- one imperial; the other, metric. 8" floppy drives are largely imperial, mounted with 8-32 screws, although some Japanese drives used metric. Brass threaded PCB standoffs in early Taiwanese systems were sometimes an interesting mixed bag--the threaded stud was often imperial, while the threaded hole was metric. In some Compaq Deskpro tower systems, Torx, cheese-head bolts are used as part of the guide for mouthing drives in the case. Compaq considerately provided a couple of rows of holes drilled in the chassis that held Torx-head screws in both 6-32 and M3 in two labeled rows. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 24 17:58:22 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 15:58:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Thread pitch (was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4C9CC88D.30688.179A5EA@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20100924150944.F71720@shell.lmi.net> <4C9CC88D.30688.179A5EA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100924155408.E71720@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 24 Sep 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > 3.5" and 5.25" hard drives were mostly 6-32. Japanese 5.25" and 3.5" > floppies were mostly M3--some had two rows of holes in the casting-- > one imperial; the other, metric. Yes But what I can't remember, . . . Was the Shugart SA400 (and SA390, etc.) imperial, and would Shugart SA455, (&465,475) be considered an American/imperial drive, or a Japanese one? From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 24 18:21:15 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 16:21:15 -0700 Subject: Thread pitch (was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <20100924155408.E71720@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4C9CC88D.30688.179A5EA@cclist.sydex.com>, <20100924155408.E71720@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C9CCFFB.14741.196A958@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Sep 2010 at 15:58, Fred Cisin wrote: > Yes > But what I can't remember, . . . > Was the Shugart SA400 (and SA390, etc.) imperial, and > would Shugart SA455, (&465,475) be considered an American/imperial > drive, or a Japanese one? Okay, you caught me! Half-height 5.25" floppies (SA455, etc.) used M3, but the FH (SA400, etc.) used 6-32. OTOH, 3.25" drives seem to mount with 4-40 screws. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Sep 24 19:12:08 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 01:12:08 +0100 Subject: Screwing around (Was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C9D3E58.10005@philpem.me.uk> On 24/09/10 22:38, Tony Duell wrote: > I've seen left-handed taps and dies on sale. And of course it's easy to > cut a left-hand thread on a lathe. But I have never seen LH nuts an bolts > listed by any company in the UK. But I've not seriously looked for them. PTS (or someone like them) could probably make them up if you really wanted them... Though given that the standard is right-handed, I'd file left-handed under "use only if you want to screw with peoples' minds". Pun not intended but worth a grin regardless :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From keithvz at verizon.net Fri Sep 24 21:49:13 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 22:49:13 -0400 Subject: OT: wireless access solutions In-Reply-To: <425354.64936.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <729611.27271.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4C9CF9EF.1030403@verizon.net> <873187.69402.qm@web83901.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <17112.65618.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4C9D0A2E.20002@verizon.net> <425354.64936.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C9D6329.5070309@verizon.net> On 9/24/2010 4:55 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > Well, I have seen other Linksys networking gear not play nicely too, so it may > just be crappy firmware. I've got a Linksys print server that I cannot use > wireless because it doesn't support WPA/WPA2 correctly. At first I thought it > was a compatibility problem with my Apple Time Capsule, but I tried it with my > older Linksys router (which would lock up on a fairly frequent basis after a > firmware update) and it performed equally bad. I've been happy enough with most of the other linksys gear I've bought. I will say that my current router, a D-link gigabit model, is actually very good. I've been happy with the throughput, the number of concurrent sessions (very important for p2p, etc), reliability, features, etc. Very decent. I just need more bandwidth. How can a man be expected to live with 20/5 ? Life is tough. Keith P.S. This is sort of tongue-in-cheek, if you didn't catch it. I started with a 300 baud modem, (yah yah, faster than your acoustic coupler, I know) From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Sep 24 23:02:18 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 23:02:18 -0500 Subject: OT: wireless access solutions In-Reply-To: <4C9D6329.5070309@verizon.net> References: <729611.27271.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4C9CF9EF.1030403@verizon.net> <873187.69402.qm@web83901.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <17112.65618.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4C9D0A2E.20002@verizon.net> <425354.64936.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4C9D6329.5070309@verizon.net> Message-ID: Thanks for all the replies. I'll see what kind of hardware I can find this weekend. brian From nick.allen at comcast.net Fri Sep 24 20:27:53 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 20:27:53 -0500 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C9D5019.9050706@comcast.net> Tony, Have access to a fluke multimeter, oscilloscope, eprom programmer/reader, and a brilliant vintage computer repair technician local to Chicago (Eric Kudzin), he is extremely helpful and taking the lead on repairs, but we sometimes need help/advice/direction and ALL your help on this listing is extremely helpful! From williams.dan at gmail.com Sat Sep 25 10:49:36 2010 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 16:49:36 +0100 Subject: Any interest in Research Machines PCs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 15 September 2010 20:33, Adrian Graham wrote: > Folks, > > Today I discovered I had more RM Nimbus machines than I actually need, > as well as a few Acorn Archimedes. Any interest? > > The RMs are mostly PC-1 which is a pretty well specced 80186-based > machine but there's also an AX/2, VX/2 and a microchannel M-series. > Not strictly home based machines so I guess I should pass them onto > someone! > > Cheers, > > -- > adrian/witchy > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home? computer collection? > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk > Hi, Probably a bit late now. I would be interested in the RM stuff. If the PC-1's have network interfaces I am definitely interested. Also I would like a AX/2 or a VX/2. Do You have network server software for these ? What I really want is a colour monitor for a PC-1, do have any of these ?. I have been using monochrome on the machines I have. Dan From bob at theadamsons.co.uk Sat Sep 25 13:50:08 2010 From: bob at theadamsons.co.uk (Robert Adamson) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 19:50:08 +0100 Subject: Wood Thread Trick In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000601cb5ce2$7ab2bed0$70183c70$@co.uk> >> hole before drilling the full size hole", or "don't tighten any of >> the > > Use a centre punch. Or a Slocombe drill. And drill a pilot hole. And > rememebr the drill tip angles are different for different materials. > And remember that most ordinary twist drills aren't meant for enlarging existing holes because their centre isn't then supported, and unless everything is held rigidly (and often not even then) will tend to produce some sort of curve of constant width other than the desired circle. From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Sep 25 13:55:58 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 13:55:58 -0500 Subject: VCFMW Pics and Shirts Message-ID: It's been a week since VCFMW and now we've got some galleries to display! You can find them at vcfmw.org. I have video from the abortive uStream broadcast that I still need to chop up (it made a 2.8gb .flv file!) but will post as soon as I can. I'm not at all happy with the video or audio quality, so different methods will be employed next year. We still have a stock of shirts remaining. The design can be seen here: http://picasaweb.google.com/Silent700/VCFMW50OfficialGraphics#5512512730455260610 If anyone would like one, they are $15 incl. shipping in the US (talk to me if you're international.) Here are the sizes we have left (you can tell which we'll order more and less of next year :) Same yellow design on black or Navy-Blue Gildan pre-shrunk cotton shirts: Blue M: 2 Black M: 1 Black L: 11 Black XXL: 8 Blue XXL: 3 Blue XXXL: 2 Thanks and see you next year! -j From jthecman at netscape.net Sat Sep 25 14:29:43 2010 From: jthecman at netscape.net (jthecman at netscape.net) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 15:29:43 -0400 Subject: Help Needed in KC (MO) Message-ID: <8CD2AFF2413F318-1E44-1652F@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com> Hello I will in Kansas City Mo on October 22 to load up some tape drives, CPU, large printers, and other items located there in a warehouse. If anyone can spare some time (even 30 minutes) to come by and help load the UHAUL rental truck on Saturday the 23rd it really needed. I hope to start loading the smaller items on Friday after I fly in and pick up the 26' box tuck. All the large and heavy stuff will be loaded on Saturday. If you help load email me and I will get the address of the warehouse and a contact phone number. Thanks in advance, John Keys From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Sep 25 15:33:36 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 15:33:36 -0500 Subject: FFS large set of Orcad manuals, training materials Message-ID: I have the Capture and Layout course all the product doc, libraries and footprints bookset, about a foot and a half of manuals. Probably will fit in 2-3 of those anything fits it ships boxes. Randy From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 25 14:11:45 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 20:11:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Thread pitch (was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <20100924150944.F71720@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Sep 24, 10 03:20:30 pm Message-ID: [Leica copies and their lens threads] > I'm pretty sure that the FED was 1mm pitch, don't know about the Zorki, or > particularly the early East German counterfeit Leicas. My guess is that the FED and Zorki are the same, I've never had any problems fitting lens from one to the other, but I don't own the original models. The later ones are not really Leica copies -- they're rangefinder cameras with the same lens mount and register, but the shutter mechanism is very different (for example Leica never made a screw-mount camera with slow speeds on the same dial as the dfast speeds, Zorki did (and IMHO the way it's done is ingenious). > > > > Pentax/Praktica/Edixa thread is certianly 42mm * 1mm pitch. > > But, IIRC, "T-mount" is 42mm x .75mm pitch Certainly 42mm and a finer pitch... 0.75mm sounds about right. > > > > And C mount is 32 tpi. > "CS mount" is the same, but with 5mm difference in registry (distance to > film plane) Yes. I've enver actually come across that one, my video cameras have the C mount register. There's also D mount, used on 8 mm cine cameras. Also 32tpi, but a smaller diameter. And I suspect a shorter register. > Some computer parts have metric fasteners, some don't. Yes. It's not at all uncommon to find a mixture of threads in the same machine, particualrly when sub-assemblies (PSUs, disk drives, etc) are bought-in. European machines are almost always metric. Old US ones (DEC, HP, etc) are almost always UNC (4-40, 6-32, etc). I have both sets of spanners in my toolkit, along with a set of BA spanners for when I work on Creed teleprinters :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 25 15:43:00 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 21:43:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <4C9D5019.9050706@comcast.net> from "Nick Allen" at Sep 24, 10 08:27:53 pm Message-ID: > > Tony, > > Have access to a fluke multimeter, oscilloscope, eprom > programmer/reader, and a brilliant vintage computer repair technician > local to Chicago (Eric Kudzin), he is extremely helpful and taking the Exceellent. And you realise that the most important piece of equipment for repairing something is not electronic, it's a brain :-). > lead on repairs, but we sometimes need help/advice/direction and ALL > your help on this listing is extremely helpful! No problem/. That, surely, is one thing the classiccmp list is for. Exchanging repair/diagnostic tips, etc. While not its only use (and nor should it be), it's certain;y a very important use for the lsit. Anyway, I've had another look at the monitor info on bitsavers. It appears it's a Ball Brothers monitor, and the information is a reprint of the original service manual for the monitor (makes sense). There's a fairly good secion in that manual on diagnosing faults. If you have that monitor (and it's not certain, Xerox may well have used other manufacturer's monitors -- the PERQ, for example, may have had a VMI, KME, Moniterm or 3 rivers monitor depending on the model!), yuo want to look at the that manual carefully. Firstly, the horizontal fdeflection system, which as usual, produces the high voltages for the CRt, wil lrun without sync pulses. So you should get HV without the Alto doing anything. Secondly, the mains PSU prodcues 2 votlages. One is the 6.3V AC supplky to the CRT heater (which implies the heater will be alight even if just about anything else has failed). The other is regulated down to 55V and suppleis the monitor electronics. The manual suggests you measure this first since if there is a short or overload, the regulator circuit will shut down. IIt then suggests isolating the verticla and horizontal defleciton circuits by removing connetors (details are in the manual) to see what is fialing. If you have that model of monitor, I can see no reason not to follow that procedure... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 25 15:30:18 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 21:30:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Thread pitch (was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4C9CC88D.30688.179A5EA@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 24, 10 03:49:33 pm Message-ID: > Brass threaded PCB standoffs in early Taiwanese systems were > sometimes an interesting mixed bag--the threaded stud was often > imperial, while the threaded hole was metric. The classic example of this is the jackposts on HPIB connectors. The male end (to fit into the socket/panel) is often 6-32 UNC (expeically in HP machines), although I have seen metric theads in, say an Epson printer [1]. The female part, to take the screw in the cable connectors is M3.5 (!) now, early ones were 6-32 UNC. The convention for real HP cables/jackposts was taht nickel-plated (shiny metal) screws/posts are UNC, black oxide ones are metric, but I've seen plenty of shiny metric ones on other eqyipment. [1] There was an HPIB interface board for classic Epson dot-matrix printers. It fits into the intenral interface connector normally used for a serial option. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 25 15:35:48 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 21:35:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Screwing around (Was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4C9D3E58.10005@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Sep 25, 10 01:12:08 am Message-ID: > > On 24/09/10 22:38, Tony Duell wrote: > > I've seen left-handed taps and dies on sale. And of course it's easy to > > cut a left-hand thread on a lathe. But I have never seen LH nuts an bolts > > listed by any company in the UK. But I've not seriously looked for them. > > PTS (or someone like them) could probably make them up if you really > wanted them... > > Though given that the standard is right-handed, I'd file left-handed > under "use only if you want to screw with peoples' minds". Pun not > intended but worth a grin regardless :) The point of LH screws is not to confuse poor hackers who want to take the thing apart. You know my views on dismantling things well enough, and I am not going to hinder others from doing the same :-) You use LH scres in places where RH screw would tend to be loosened by the movement of the parts concerned. Like that 5.25" disk drive I mentioned. Such cases are not common, but they do exist. As an (odd-topic) aseide, the Sony EIAJ reel-to-reel video recorders have a metal disk mounted on a spidle by a nut and lockwasher. The head beam fits onto the disk 9and is held down by 2 screws), the head tips then go round a slot beteen the 2 stationary drum parts. That nut really should be left-handed (it isn't) becuase it's naturally loosened by the mocvement of the parts,and if it comes loose, the head beam goes askew and the head tips get shattered as they hit the drum. Don't ask how I found this out... -tony From useddec at gmail.com Sat Sep 25 16:18:06 2010 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 16:18:06 -0500 Subject: 8 mm tapes In-Reply-To: <4C9C735F.10041.2CE950@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C98C05A.5020300@bitsavers.org> <4C9B69B5.1090301@jwsss.com> <4C9CAB1B.3040800@neurotica.com> <4C9C735F.10041.2CE950@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: I have several hundred extra tapes, including the 8mm 112, 160, and 170. If anyone has need of any, feel free to send me your wish list off list. Thanks, Paul On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 11:46 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 24 Sep 2010 at 9:43, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > It took a few years of running double backups until we got a truly > > reliable tape system: DLT. That was 1995, and I am still sold on DLT > > (and its descendants) now. Super fast, super reliable. My home > > network's backups are running to a 64-tape juke with four SDLT-220 > > drives. > > We spent about 13 years recommending backup media for a number of > government agencies, starting in about 1988. This was in a field > application--i.e., not a permanent installation, but rather a "snatch > and grab" sort of affair. > > At the time, we standardized on SCSI, being one of the few external- > device interfaces with a standard attached to it. > > Intially, the most popular was the Iomega Bernoulli drives (5.25"). > Heavy, yes, but very reliable and reasonably fast. A few also used > the DC-600 (6150, 6250) size QIC media. Not quite as > straightforward as Bernoulli, but all in all, not bad. > > DDS (4mm tape) was a nightmare. About all the devices had going for > them was cost (for read-after-write medium, it was pretty good) and > capacity. I've not found long-term (>10 years) stability to be very > good. > > 8mm (Exabyte) tape was most popular with the larger agencies and > performed quite well. The biggest problem is that it was Exabyte- > proprietary and so the drives were single-sourced. > > After that, the next step was high-capacity MO (e.g. PMC Apex 4GB). > The medium wasn't bad, but the drives weren't made for field use and > failed frequently. PMC got to be overwhelmed with their swap-repair > service and eventually declared bankruptcy. > > DLT was briefly popular (reliability was great), media and drive cost > was high, but using commodity hard drives eventually won out. > > For me, there are always surprises. I recently came across a cache > of backup tapes I made in 1988 using an Irwin (EZTape?) DC-1000 > minicart drive. Every single one of the dozen backups was readable. > Sometimes, you just never can tell. > > But you can keep your Datasonix Pereos drives. One of the largest > publicity blitzes for a non-working product that I've ever seen. > > --Chuck > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 25 16:52:37 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 22:52:37 +0100 Subject: Joining cctalk Message-ID: <01a101cb5cfb$f9aaad10$ed000730$@ntlworld.com> I have a friend who has tried on several occasions to join this list. Can someone tell me how long it is now taking to process new membership requests? Thanks Rob From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Sep 25 17:05:14 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 15:05:14 -0700 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C9E721A.6090407@bitsavers.org> On 9/25/10 1:43 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> So you should > get HV without the Alto doing anything. > You missed that there is no horizontal oscillator. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 25 17:12:27 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 15:12:27 -0700 Subject: Thread pitch (was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: References: <4C9CC88D.30688.179A5EA@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 24, 10 03:49:33 pm, Message-ID: <4C9E115B.6721.171312F@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Sep 2010 at 21:30, Tony Duell wrote: > The classic example of this is the jackposts on HPIB connectors. The > male end (to fit into the socket/panel) is often 6-32 UNC (expeically > in HP machines), although I have seen metric theads in, say an Epson > printer [1]. The female part, to take the screw in the cable > connectors is M3.5 (!) now, early ones were 6-32 UNC. The convention > for real HP cables/jackposts was taht nickel-plated (shiny metal) > screws/posts are UNC, black oxide ones are metric, but I've seen > plenty of shiny metric ones on other eqyipment. I was thinking about that too. I've also got some GPIB gear that uses the "blue ribbon" wire bail clips as well. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Sep 25 17:27:27 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 18:27:27 -0400 Subject: Help Needed in KC (MO) In-Reply-To: <8CD2AFF2413F318-1E44-1652F@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD2AFF2413F318-1E44-1652F@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: > I will in Kansas City Mo on October 22 to load up some tape drives, CPU, > large printers, and other items located there in a warehouse. What are they? -- Will From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Sep 25 19:08:17 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 19:08:17 -0500 Subject: Screwing around (Was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C9E8EF1.2060305@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> The new generation didn't have Erector sets as kids (the snap-together >> plastic stuff without a plug-in motor don't count) > > Kids these days :-) > > I mentioned some months hack that I got my first electic shock before I > was 2 years old. By finding a screwdriver and unscrewing a wall socket to > see how it was wired. So I guess I learnt early ;-) I was very young when I got my first burn from a soldering iron (not by soldering - I had some kind of plastic version of Meccano and decided that the soldering iron would be the perfect way to "drill" some more useful bolt holes through some of the beams). Earliest AC-mains shock I remember for sure wasn't until I was about nine (I decided to grab hold of a transformer that was still plugged in - it hurt). re. toys like that though, I'm not sure if the problem is that kids today don't like them - or that they don't get the chance to find out because parents don't buy them and companies don't make/market them. > I've seen left-handed taps and dies on sale. And of course it's easy to > cut a left-hand thread on a lathe. But I have never seen LH nuts an bolts > listed by any company in the UK. But I've not seriously looked for them. The regulator in my air compressor uses a LH thread - I'm not sure if all compressors are like that or not. When it eventually gives up completely (the threads on the associated brass nut are pretty chewed up) I'll convert it all to RH parts I think (or plumb in a different regulator, but I can't get off-the-shelf parts that "just fit"). cheers Jules From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Sep 25 19:20:56 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 20:20:56 -0400 Subject: Screwing around (Was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4C9E8EF1.2060305@gmail.com> References: <4C9E8EF1.2060305@gmail.com> Message-ID: > The regulator in my air compressor uses a LH thread - I'm not sure if all > compressors are like that or not. When it eventually gives up completely > (the threads on the associated brass nut are pretty chewed up) I'll convert > it all to RH parts I think (or plumb in a different regulator, but I can't > get off-the-shelf parts that "just fit"). The thread direction and size are meaningful with air fittings. Look it up before monkeying around with it. -- Will From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Sep 26 11:34:49 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 11:34:49 -0500 Subject: Screwing around (Was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: References: <4C9E8EF1.2060305@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C9F7629.2050105@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> The regulator in my air compressor uses a LH thread - I'm not sure if all >> compressors are like that or not. When it eventually gives up completely >> (the threads on the associated brass nut are pretty chewed up) I'll convert >> it all to RH parts I think (or plumb in a different regulator, but I can't >> get off-the-shelf parts that "just fit"). > > The thread direction and size are meaningful with air fittings. Look > it up before monkeying around with it. I don't think it's an issue for the regulator though... which way you have to turn it by hand matters not. (I agree about not messing with threads on other fittings though - but I don't think I have any there that aren't RH) cheers Jules From jthecman at netscape.net Sun Sep 26 11:31:55 2010 From: jthecman at netscape.net (jthecman at netscape.net) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 12:31:55 -0400 Subject: Help Needed in KC (MO) In-Reply-To: References: <8CD2AFF2413F318-1E44-1652F@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CD2BAF77DF34BA-1318-2F6D6@Webmail-m124.sysops.aol.com> -----Original Message----- From: William Donzelli To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Sat, Sep 25, 2010 5:27 pm Subject: Re: Help Needed in KC (MO) > I will in Kansas City Mo on October 22 to load up some tape drives, CPU, > large printers, and other items located there in a warehouse. What are they? -- Will The tape drives are SDS, the CPU is a SDS910, the printers are various brands, there are some racks, and other items that I have not seen in awhile. John From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 26 12:56:41 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 18:56:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <4C9E721A.6090407@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Sep 25, 10 03:05:14 pm Message-ID: > > On 9/25/10 1:43 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> > >> So you should > > get HV without the Alto doing anything. > > > > You missed that there is no horizontal oscillator. Mea clupa! You are absolutely correct, of course. This will teach me to quickly glance at schematics and not fully analyse them. I looked at the monitor scheamtic and saw the horizontal system had half adozen transistors in it, and what looked to be timing networks. So I assumed, incorrectly, that it was an oscillator. I failed to notice there was no feedback path anywhere. To the OP : I posted some incorrect information yesterday. The Alto monitor, at least if it's the Ball Brothers one shown in the schematics on bitsavers, will _NOT_ produce the high voltages (including the CRT anode voltage) unless it is getting horizontal sync pulsse ('drive pulses' is probably more accurate) from the Alto itself. I don't know enough about the Alto to know if it will always proeduce such sync pulses, or whether you have to have the right software or microcode loadrd. I thnik what I would do, given that you have a 'scope, is to see if the Alto is producing said horizontal sync pulses. If not, then figure out why (it may not be a hardware problem, I can take a look at the Alto video scehamtics to see if I can figrue out if there's any software control). When you arr getting sync pulses, then troubleshoot the monitor. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 26 13:12:19 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 19:12:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Screwing around (Was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4C9E8EF1.2060305@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Sep 25, 10 07:08:17 pm Message-ID: > re. toys like that though, I'm not sure if the problem is that kids today > don't like them - or that they don't get the chance to find out because > parents don't buy them and companies don't make/market them. I think I've mentioend before that these days my parents would probably be guilty of child cruelty or something. My 8th (I think) birthday prsennt consisted of things like a woodworking tenon saw, a junior hacksaw, a set of twist drills, a wheelbrace (hand drill) to use them in, a small vice, and so on. Yes, I ahve cut myslef with them over the years. But no, I have had no serious injuries from tools ever... And I do thank my parents for encouraging my hackish tendencies. I certianly think there are fewer constructional toys around now than there were perhaps 30 or 40 eyars ago. I must have over a dozen different educational electronics systems, and none of them are Heathkit :-). As I've said before, I think the Philips EE kits were the most fun, but teher were others. And there were many more electronic kits (as in solder a device together) around back then than there are now. It's dubious how mucyh electronics you learnt by assembling a Heathkit, say, but you did certianly get practice with tools, and you might be inpsired to find out more about what you were doing and why. > > > I've seen left-handed taps and dies on sale. And of course it's easy to > > cut a left-hand thread on a lathe. But I have never seen LH nuts an bolts > > listed by any company in the UK. But I've not seriously looked for them. > > The regulator in my air compressor uses a LH thread - I'm not sure if all > compressors are like that or not. When it eventually gives up completely (the > threads on the associated brass nut are pretty chewed up) I'll convert it all > to RH parts I think (or plumb in a different regulator, but I can't get > off-the-shelf parts that "just fit"). Be careful!. LH threads are always ued for a reason, not becuase the manufacturer is awkward. I don;t know aobut compressors, but I rememebr there is some convention with gas cylinders and the regulators for those. There are LH and RH threads, IIRC oxygen/air/oxidising gases is one, 'fuels' like acetylene, etc is the other. The idea is so you can't accidentally couple up the wrong one, or put oxygen into a regulator that has been lubricated with oil (compresed oxygen and oil can catch fire or explode). It's been a long time since I worked iwth gas cylinders, so I cna't remember the details, but I can check. So I would not modify anythread in a compressor unless you really know what you are doing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 26 13:01:09 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 19:01:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Thread pitch (was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4C9E115B.6721.171312F@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 25, 10 03:12:27 pm Message-ID: > I was thinking about that too. I've also got some GPIB gear that > uses the "blue ribbon" wire bail clips as well. I have never seen a 'real' GPIB cable with anything other than the double-sided connectors and jackscrews. So I wonder what cables this was designed to be used with. Who made it? I have seen a few so-called IEEE-488 devices where the interface connection is made by a 'captive' length of ribbon cable ending in a 24 pin microribbon plng (only). The idea was you put it on the end of the stack of doubel-sdied conenctors on a convenient device. Hmm.. I think the devices I remember this being done on were relatively inexpensive RS232 interface units for the Commodore PET, etc. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 26 15:33:00 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 13:33:00 -0700 Subject: Thread pitch (was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: References: <4C9E115B.6721.171312F@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 25, 10 03:12:27 pm, Message-ID: <4C9F4B8C.14857.1374925@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Sep 2010 at 19:01, Tony Duell wrote: > I have never seen a 'real' GPIB cable with anything other than the > double-sided connectors and jackscrews. So I wonder what cables this > was designed to be used with. Who made it? I don't recall the brand, but it was a disk drive. I seem to recall that the command set was only "sort of" HPIB; i.e. "interesting" extensions. I never played much with it, just had it around for a time as a curiosity item. --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Sep 26 15:48:02 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 17:48:02 -0300 Subject: Screwing around (Was: Multimeter recomendations References: Message-ID: <0c3b01cb5dbc$814504d0$6400a8c0@portajara> > I think I've mentioend before that these days my parents would probably > be guilty of child cruelty or something. My 8th (I think) birthday > prsennt consisted of things like a woodworking tenon saw, a junior > hacksaw, a set of twist drills, a wheelbrace (hand drill) to use them in, > a small vice, and so on. Yes, I ahve cut myslef with them over the years. > But no, I have had no serious injuries from tools ever... And I do thank > my parents for encouraging my hackish tendencies. Children are become more and more stupid everyday! Things like lego, mecano, educational kits and good junior tools are almost nonexistent as gifts. Children prefer a brand new PS3 :oP > I certianly think there are fewer constructional toys around now than > there were perhaps 30 or 40 eyars ago. I must have over a dozen > different educational electronics systems, and none of them are Heathkit > :-). As I've said before, I think the Philips EE kits were the most fun, > but teher were others. Lucky you, because we had almost nothing of it in Brazil (although some lucky guys in Sao Paulo had it, don't know why) > And there were many more electronic kits (as in solder a device together) > around back then than there are now. It's dubious how mucyh electronics > you learnt by assembling a Heathkit, say, but you did certianly get > practice with tools, and you might be inpsired to find out more about > what you were doing and why. At least you're having some "hands-on" with REAL electronics, and don't think there is a bunch of chineses painting the screen on the television (they must be real thin in newer flat-panel televisions). So you get interested into subject and learn about it. So bad we live in the age of information, and children lives in the age of stupidity :( From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Sep 26 16:06:46 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 14:06:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Screwing around (Was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <0c3b01cb5dbc$814504d0$6400a8c0@portajara> from Alexandre Souza - Listas at "Sep 26, 10 05:48:02 pm" Message-ID: <201009262106.o8QL6k7S029146@floodgap.com> > Children are become more and more stupid everyday! Things like lego, > mecano, educational kits and good junior tools are almost nonexistent as > gifts. Children prefer a brand new PS3 :oP Depends on the parents. My folks refused to get us an NES when we were younger, and wouldn't even let us rot with the old Intellivision. They got us Legos and Construx, and forced me to learn how to use the C64 ("we spent a lot of money on this, and you will damn well learn how to use it"). I'm eternally grateful to them. Truly. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- You cannot trust this technology stuff. -- Ira Oldham ---------------------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Sep 26 16:10:09 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 14:10:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Screwing around (Was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4C9F7629.2050105@gmail.com> References: <4C9E8EF1.2060305@gmail.com> <4C9F7629.2050105@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100926140807.C35902@shell.lmi.net> Left handed threads on flammable gases are an exercise in Darwinism. Think about the guy with a cigarette in his mouth who smells gas, so he turns the gas fitting clockwise. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Sep 26 16:21:07 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 14:21:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Screwing around (Was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <201009262106.o8QL6k7S029146@floodgap.com> References: <201009262106.o8QL6k7S029146@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20100926141448.O35902@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 26 Sep 2010, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Depends on the parents. My folks refused to get us an NES when we were > younger, and wouldn't even let us rot with the old Intellivision. They got > us Legos and Construx, and forced me to learn how to use the C64 ("we spent > a lot of money on this, and you will damn well learn how to use it"). > I'm eternally grateful to them. Truly. My parents got my brother and I a used REAL erector set, and a used chemistry set (a reasonably REAL one). But they never understood tools. My father never understood that there was more than one size of Philips screwdrivers, and always thought that a soldering iron was a big pistol shaped thing with a trigger, that all auto body work was done with a big rubber hammer, and that nobody needed a "whole SET" of wrenches, because the slip-joint pliers and the imitation Crescent wrench from the dime store fit all sizes. But, I did learn the concept of a mains fuse box when I was 4 :-) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Sep 26 16:29:21 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 14:29:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Screwing around (Was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4C9D3E58.10005@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C9D3E58.10005@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20100926142353.U35902@shell.lmi.net> > On 24/09/10 22:38, Tony Duell wrote: > > I've seen left-handed taps and dies on sale. And of course it's easy to > > cut a left-hand thread on a lathe. But I have never seen LH nuts an bolts > > listed by any company in the UK. But I've not seriously looked for them. On Sat, 25 Sep 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: > PTS (or someone like them) could probably make them up if you really > wanted them... I know that Philip didn't intend it that way, but it is humorous to think that anybody could expect that ARD would need to have somebody else make them up! Even I have made RH nuts and bolts. A set of LH taps and dies would be FUN! There is a mechanical puzzle that includes a bottle with a stick in it, with a nut and screw through the stick, and to solve the puzzle, one has to unscrew the nut while it is in the bottle. I wanna make one of those with LH threads :-) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 26 16:34:17 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 14:34:17 -0700 Subject: Screwing around (Was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <20100926140807.C35902@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4C9F7629.2050105@gmail.com>, <20100926140807.C35902@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C9F59E9.21590.16F6400@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Sep 2010 at 14:10, Fred Cisin wrote: > Left handed threads on flammable gases are an exercise in Darwinism. True story. I was installing a new faucet in the kitchen sink and decided to do something that made sense. This is the type with independently-mounted valves so one can swap right-to-left with no problem. Which is what I did--consider that the usual way has you pulling on the vavle (toward you) to turn the water on--just what you don't want if you're hands are full of sticky dough. With the direction reversed, you can bump the water on with your elbow. Another benefit is that the faucet handles don't protrude into the sink when the water's on. For my wife and I this worked wonderfully. But every once in a while, we'd get a guest who'd want to get a glass of water and (usually she) he or she would single-mindedly keep trying to turn the cold water (right-hand side) clockwise, never thinking that it might be set up the other way. Eventually, I put the valves back the conventional way. It was getting to be too funny. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Sep 26 18:29:15 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 17:29:15 -0600 Subject: Screwing around (Was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4C9F59E9.21590.16F6400@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4C9F7629.2050105@gmail.com>, <20100926140807.C35902@shell.lmi.net> <4C9F59E9.21590.16F6400@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C9FD74B.8010904@jetnet.ab.ca> On 26/09/2010 3:34 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 26 Sep 2010 at 14:10, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> Left handed threads on flammable gases are an exercise in Darwinism. > > True story. I was installing a new faucet in the kitchen sink and > decided to do something that made sense. This is the type with > independently-mounted valves so one can swap right-to-left with no > problem. > > Which is what I did--consider that the usual way has you pulling on > the vavle (toward you) to turn the water on--just what you don't want > if you're hands are full of sticky dough. With the direction > reversed, you can bump the water on with your elbow. Another benefit > is that the faucet handles don't protrude into the sink when the > water's on. > > For my wife and I this worked wonderfully. But every once in a > while, we'd get a guest who'd want to get a glass of water and > (usually she) he or she would single-mindedly keep trying to turn the > cold water (right-hand side) clockwise, never thinking that it might > be set up the other way. > > Eventually, I put the valves back the conventional way. It was > getting to be too funny. > > --Chuck > Put the valves back, and just say you have water from Austraila. :) ben From marvin at west.net Sun Sep 26 19:18:26 2010 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 17:18:26 -0700 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse Message-ID: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net> I saw an article on Mashable with photos of the evolution of the Apple mouse. Kind of interesting. http://mashable.com/2010/09/26/evolution-apple-mouse/ Marvin From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Sep 26 19:32:51 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 17:32:51 -0700 Subject: (d)Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net> References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net> Message-ID: <4C9FE633.7080604@bitsavers.org> On 9/26/10 5:18 PM, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > I saw an article on Mashable with photos of the evolution of the Apple mouse. The ADB II mouse (the heavy ball version) was the best they ever produced. I refuse to use any Apple USB pointing device or keyboard developed after Jobs came back, they are ALL crap. The keyboard I've used since the switch to USB is a macally ikey (essentially the same feel and travel as the ADB extended keyboard) and a Logitech M-BJ69 3 button roller mouse. And the roller and right button work under OS X! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Sep 26 19:46:07 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 18:46:07 -0600 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net> References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net> Message-ID: <4C9FE94F.3060600@jetnet.ab.ca> On 26/09/2010 6:18 PM, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > I saw an article on Mashable with photos of the evolution of the Apple > mouse. Kind of interesting. > > http://mashable.com/2010/09/26/evolution-apple-mouse/ > > Marvin > I found reading about the IBM MODEL M keyboard more interesting. My computer just died, and had to buy a new one. The USB keyboard that came with it, is too cheap with too many keys that I can't type with it. So I got looking for 'THE BEST KEY BOARD MADE' on the web, and I ordered a NEW refurbished model M and the correct USB adapter to go with it. So what, key boards do you all use, if for don't have a DEC terminal online? Ben. From spc at conman.org Sun Sep 26 20:13:56 2010 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 21:13:56 -0400 Subject: Keyboards (was Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse) In-Reply-To: <4C9FE94F.3060600@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net> <4C9FE94F.3060600@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20100927011356.GA10138@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great ben once stated: > On 26/09/2010 6:18 PM, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > > >I saw an article on Mashable with photos of the evolution of the Apple > >mouse. Kind of interesting. > > > >http://mashable.com/2010/09/26/evolution-apple-mouse/ > > > >Marvin > > > I found reading about the IBM MODEL M keyboard more interesting. > My computer just died, and had to buy a new one. The USB keyboard that > came with it, is too cheap with too many keys that I can't type with it. > So I got looking for 'THE BEST KEY BOARD MADE' on the web, > and I ordered a NEW refurbished model M and the correct USB adapter > to go with it. So what, key boards do you all use, if for don't have a > DEC terminal online? IBM Model M. I have a stash of them and they're on all my computers (including the Mac). I even took one to the office to use; the one they got me was close (it uses a similar mechanism as the IBM Modem M) but was too mushy (it was the "quiet" model) for my liking. -spc (Who won't use anything else if he can help it) From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Sun Sep 26 20:22:02 2010 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 03:22:02 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Don=92t_cross_the_LHC_stream=21_=28PDP=2D11=29?= Message-ID: This video is nice : http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2010/09/21/dont-cross-the-lhc-stream and this is an unusual comment : http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2010/09/21/dont-cross-the-lhc-stream/#comment-307214 -- Stephane http://updatedoften.blogspot.com From nick.allen at comcast.net Sun Sep 26 18:52:23 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 18:52:23 -0500 Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C9FDCB7.2070604@comcast.net> Excellent! This explains a lot. The CRT wasn't producing high voltage when connected to the PET or when powered on stand alone. I do believe it WAS producing high voltage when connected to the alto, hence the video card on the alto should then be outputting signal! Make sense, am I understanding your post correctly? From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Sep 26 20:38:28 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 21:38:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Advice for scanning docs Message-ID: All, I'm trying to scan some documentation on "IBM PC" sized 3-hole paper. For some reason the scanner is prone to pulling multiple sheets through when doing the reverse sides. Doesn't seem to have this issue when doing the facing side. I haven't seen this with US letter size paper, either. Wondering if anyone has any tips for avoiding this? The scanner is a Umax Astra 2400S w/ Umax sheet feeder. Steve -- From chrise at pobox.com Sun Sep 26 20:41:32 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 20:41:32 -0500 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4C9FE94F.3060600@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net> <4C9FE94F.3060600@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20100927014132.GP19489@n0jcf.net> On Sunday (09/26/2010 at 06:46PM -0600), ben wrote: > On 26/09/2010 6:18 PM, Marvin Johnston wrote: >> >> I saw an article on Mashable with photos of the evolution of the Apple >> mouse. Kind of interesting. >> >> http://mashable.com/2010/09/26/evolution-apple-mouse/ >> >> Marvin >> > I found reading about the IBM MODEL M keyboard more interesting. > My computer just died, and had to buy a new one. The USB keyboard that > came with it, is too cheap with too many keys that I can't type with it. > So I got looking for 'THE BEST KEY BOARD MADE' on the web, > and I ordered a NEW refurbished model M and the correct USB adapter > to go with it. So what, key boards do you all use, if for don't have a > DEC terminal online? > Ben. I use a Northgate OmniKey 102. They will bury me with that keyboard. We had the luxery of being able to buy them in stores here in MN a very long time ago, when Northgate Computer was a local clone manufacturer. Their computers were junk but somehow they got the keyboard right. http://www.northgate-keyboard-repair.com/102.jpg -- Chris Elmquist From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sun Sep 26 21:36:57 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 21:36:57 -0500 Subject: Help Needed in KC (MO) In-Reply-To: <8CD2BAF77DF34BA-1318-2F6D6@Webmail-m124.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD2AFF2413F318-1E44-1652F@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com> <8CD2BAF77DF34BA-1318-2F6D6@Webmail-m124.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4CA00349.90704@tx.rr.com> On 9/26/2010 11:31 AM, jthecman at netscape.net wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: William Donzelli > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Sent: Sat, Sep 25, 2010 5:27 pm > Subject: Re: Help Needed in KC (MO) > > >> I will in Kansas City Mo on October 22 to load up some tape drives, > CPU, >> large printers, and other items located there in a warehouse. > > What are they? > > -- > Will > > The tape drives are SDS, the CPU is a SDS910, the printers are various > brands, there are some racks, and other items that I have not seen in > awhile. > > John > A 910 - that brings back some really pleasant memories - in spite of having to deal with punched paper tape. Later, Charlie C. From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sun Sep 26 22:37:53 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 22:37:53 -0500 Subject: Screwing around (Was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <20100926141448.O35902@shell.lmi.net> References: <201009262106.o8QL6k7S029146@floodgap.com> <20100926141448.O35902@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CA01191.70001@tx.rr.com> On 9/26/2010 4:21 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 26 Sep 2010, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Depends on the parents. My folks refused to get us an NES when we were >> younger, and wouldn't even let us rot with the old Intellivision. They got >> us Legos and Construx, and forced me to learn how to use the C64 ("we spent >> a lot of money on this, and you will damn well learn how to use it"). >> I'm eternally grateful to them. Truly. > > My parents got my brother and I a used REAL erector set, and a used > chemistry set (a reasonably REAL one). I suppose there are some advantages to having been born in 1938. :-) I still think the Erector set I got for Christmas when I was about 10 was about the best present I ever got from my parents. After they passed away in 99, when I was cleaning out one of their storage buildings I rescued it, and I still have what was left of it out in my garage. The last thing I built with it (a windmill) is out there too. With the little electric motor on the base driving it I'm sure those unprotected metal "blades" would be considered way too dangerous for a kid today - even though the drive "belt" was (I think) just some string. IMHO, everyone should learn to keep their hands out of obviously dangerous places, and learning that at a fairly young age is not a bad thing. I had a pretty fun chemistry set too, but I always liked the Erector set better. I could never get some of the "experiments" to work, but the Erector set projects always worked... > > But they never understood tools. My father never understood that there > was more than one size of Philips screwdrivers, and always thought that a > soldering iron was a big pistol shaped thing with a trigger, that all auto > body work was done with a big rubber hammer, and that nobody needed a > "whole SET" of wrenches, because the slip-joint pliers and the imitation > Crescent wrench from the dime store fit all sizes. > > But, I did learn the concept of a mains fuse box when I was 4 :-) > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 01:02:02 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 02:02:02 -0400 Subject: Help Needed in KC (MO) In-Reply-To: <8CD2BAF77DF34BA-1318-2F6D6@Webmail-m124.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD2AFF2413F318-1E44-1652F@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com> <8CD2BAF77DF34BA-1318-2F6D6@Webmail-m124.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: > The tape drives are SDS, the CPU is a SDS910, the printers are various > brands, there are some racks, and other items that I have not seen in > awhile. OK, thanks for the info. I thought you had already picked that system up, but I guess not. Treat them gingerly! -- Will From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Sep 27 01:47:21 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 08:47:21 +0200 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4C9FE94F.3060600@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net> <4C9FE94F.3060600@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20100927084721.3127276f.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 26 Sep 2010 18:46:07 -0600 ben wrote: > So what, key boards do you all use, if for don't have a > DEC terminal online? The LK201 is one of the worst keyboards I came acros. (The next worse is Sun type 3.) ... IBM Model M is nice, but very NOISY. I can't stand that. I prefere the first generation of PS/2 keyboards from SGI. (SGI OEMed them from Alps.) -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Sep 27 03:24:28 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 01:24:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Advice for scanning docs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Sep 2010, Steven Hirsch wrote: > All, > > I'm trying to scan some documentation on "IBM PC" sized 3-hole paper. For > some reason the scanner is prone to pulling multiple sheets through when > doing the reverse sides. Doesn't seem to have this issue when doing the > facing side. I haven't seen this with US letter size paper, either. > > Wondering if anyone has any tips for avoiding this? > > The scanner is a Umax Astra 2400S w/ Umax sheet feeder. The first thing that comes to mind is static cling. Check the room humidity, if possible, and/or get some antistatic spray. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 07:26:17 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 07:26:17 -0500 Subject: Screwing around (Was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <20100926140807.C35902@shell.lmi.net> References: <4C9E8EF1.2060305@gmail.com> <4C9F7629.2050105@gmail.com> <20100926140807.C35902@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CA08D69.2080004@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > Left handed threads on flammable gases are an exercise in Darwinism. > > > Think about the guy with a cigarette in his mouth who smells gas, so he > turns the gas fitting clockwise. I suppose I like to think that nobody who isn't trained in the equipment would be allowed to mess with it - but if they've got a cigarette dangling from their mouth at the time then they probably deserve everything they get :-) From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 07:43:47 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 07:43:47 -0500 Subject: Screwing around (Was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA09183.7050700@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> re. toys like that though, I'm not sure if the problem is that kids today >> don't like them - or that they don't get the chance to find out because >> parents don't buy them and companies don't make/market them. > > I think I've mentioend before that these days my parents would probably > be guilty of child cruelty or something. My 8th (I think) birthday > prsennt consisted of things like a woodworking tenon saw, a junior > hacksaw, a set of twist drills, a wheelbrace (hand drill) to use them in, > a small vice, and so on. Now I'm jealous ;-) I was really interested in that Technic Lego that used to be around - I spent many an hour designing gearboxes and the like. I'm not sure if you can even get the stuff these days (or if it's anything like it used to be - gradually there were more and more custom parts creeping into the model kits, and of course anyone with a real interest in that stuff built the kit model once and then used the parts to create their own things) > I certianly think there are fewer constructional toys around now than > there were perhaps 30 or 40 eyars ago. I must have over a dozen > different educational electronics systems, and none of them are Heathkit > :-). As I've said before, I think the Philips EE kits were the most fun, > but teher were others. I was probably around 7 when I got one of those ones with the bendy springs and a bunch of wires for making connections to components that were mounted on the board - it was a good introduction to electronics. I don't remember how old I was when I first tried soldering my own stuff together, though. > Be careful!. LH threads are always ued for a reason, not becuase the > manufacturer is awkward. > > I don;t know aobut compressors, but I rememebr there is some convention > with gas cylinders and the regulators for those. Yeah, I asked around a while back, and it seems that general-purpose compressors exist with both RH and LH threads for the regulators - there doesn't seem to be any kind of standard. I don't care which way I have to turn it to do what - it's a tool that has to be learnt, like any other - so I'd much rather they used standard parts (although to be fair I suppose they never thought that someone would be taking the regulator apart!) cheers Jules From cctech at vax-11.org Mon Sep 27 07:51:18 2010 From: cctech at vax-11.org (cctech at vax-11.org) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 06:51:18 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Advice for scanning docs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've run into this as well. For some reason the addition friction from the page distortion around the punched holes causes the pages to 'stick' together. I've had some luck with fanning the pages before loading them into the scanner by pinching the side with the holes, bending the stack into a U shape, pinching the side without the holes, releasing the hole side pinch, and flattening the stack back out. Since my scanner pulls from the bottom, the stack tends to get pulled in correctly without multiple feeds. If that doesn't work, load the pages improperly and fix the sheet orientation in postprocessing. Clint On Sun, 26 Sep 2010, Steven Hirsch wrote: > All, > > I'm trying to scan some documentation on "IBM PC" sized 3-hole paper. For > some reason the scanner is prone to pulling multiple sheets through when > doing the reverse sides. Doesn't seem to have this issue when doing the > facing side. I haven't seen this with US letter size paper, either. > > Wondering if anyone has any tips for avoiding this? > > The scanner is a Umax Astra 2400S w/ Umax sheet feeder. > > Steve > > > > -- > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Sep 27 09:13:13 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 07:13:13 -0700 Subject: Advice for scanning docs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA0A679.7090703@bitsavers.org> On 9/26/10 6:38 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Wondering if anyone has any tips for avoiding this? > Scan it rotated 90, so the right edge is fed first. If you have a scanner capable of 11x17, do the same with 8.5 x 11 pages. I've done several million pages this way. From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 09:25:39 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 15:25:39 +0100 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <20100927014132.GP19489@n0jcf.net> References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net> <4C9FE94F.3060600@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100927014132.GP19489@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: On 27 September 2010 02:41, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Sunday (09/26/2010 at 06:46PM -0600), ben wrote: >> On 26/09/2010 6:18 PM, Marvin Johnston wrote: >>> >>> I saw an article on Mashable with photos of the evolution of the Apple >>> mouse. Kind of interesting. >>> >>> http://mashable.com/2010/09/26/evolution-apple-mouse/ >>> >>> Marvin >>> >> I found reading about the IBM MODEL M keyboard more interesting. >> My computer just died, and had to buy a new one. The USB keyboard that >> came with it, is too cheap with too many keys that I can't type with it. >> So I got looking for 'THE BEST KEY BOARD MADE' on the web, >> and I ordered a ?NEW refurbished model M and the correct USB adapter >> to go with it. So what, key boards do you all use, if for don't have a >> DEC terminal online? >> Ben. > > I use a Northgate OmniKey 102. ?They will bury me with that keyboard. > We had the luxery of being able to buy them in stores here in MN a very > long time ago, when Northgate Computer was a local clone manufacturer. > Their computers were junk but somehow they got the keyboard right. > > http://www.northgate-keyboard-repair.com/102.jpg I think Gateway used to ship a variant of those, a bigger one with 2 sets of F-keys, programmable? As shown on here: http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2005/QBlog301105A.html I had one. I think I gave it away - I was never all that impressed. Not enough "feel" for me. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 09:28:13 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 15:28:13 +0100 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net> References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net> Message-ID: On 27 September 2010 01:18, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > I saw an article on Mashable with photos of the evolution of the Apple > mouse. Kind of interesting. > > http://mashable.com/2010/09/26/evolution-apple-mouse/ > > Marvin They missed at least one significant model - the slimline rectangular mouse that came between the original blocky Mac/Mac+ and the rounded oval ADB mouse. It remains my personal favourite. I hated the "pro mouse" with the ball and the Magic mouse, while clever, makes it too hard to right-click. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 09:30:34 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 15:30:34 +0100 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <20100927084721.3127276f.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net> <4C9FE94F.3060600@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100927084721.3127276f.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On 27 September 2010 07:47, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Sun, 26 Sep 2010 18:46:07 -0600 > ben wrote: > >> So what, key boards do you all use, if for don't have a >> DEC terminal online? > The LK201 is one of the worst keyboards I came acros. > (The next worse is Sun type 3.) Some friends love Sun keyboards. I was never that impressed. Also, the Apple Extended II is often regarded as a classic. It's certainly far better than modern Apple k/bs but although they're OK I don't love them. I sold one recently on eBay & it only fetched a few pounds, so I will keep the others I have. > IBM Model M is nice, but very NOISY. I can't stand that. Still my all-time favourite. I'm typing on one now. I love them and the noise is totally worth it. > I prefere the first generation of PS/2 keyboards from SGI. > (SGI OEMed them from Alps.) Not tried one, but I have used Alps boards and found them lacking feel for my taste. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Sep 27 09:40:55 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 16:40:55 +0200 Subject: Keyboards (again) [WAS: Evolution of the Apple Mouse] In-Reply-To: References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net> <4C9FE94F.3060600@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100927084721.3127276f.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20100927144055.GA16693@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 03:30:34PM +0100, Liam Proven wrote: > On 27 September 2010 07:47, Jochen Kunz wrote: > > On Sun, 26 Sep 2010 18:46:07 -0600 > > ben wrote: > > > >> So what, key boards do you all use, if for don't have a > >> DEC terminal online? > > The LK201 is one of the worst keyboards I came acros. > > (The next worse is Sun type 3.) > > Some friends love Sun keyboards. I was never that impressed. Also, the > Apple Extended II is often regarded as a classic. It's certainly far > better than modern Apple k/bs but although they're OK I don't love > them. I sold one recently on eBay & it only fetched a few pounds, so I > will keep the others I have. > > > IBM Model M is nice, but very NOISY. I can't stand that. > > Still my all-time favourite. I'm typing on one now. I love them and > the noise is totally worth it. > > > I prefere the first generation of PS/2 keyboards from SGI. > > (SGI OEMed them from Alps.) > > Not tried one, but I have used Alps boards and found them lacking feel > for my taste. > I must have read a thousand of these threads, I have friends that swear by the Model M, SGI PS/2, LK201 (exists in ps/2 version), SUN type-X and other. I wonder, is there a objective measurment to the ergonomical quality of keyboards? If you set durability aside, what makes a good keyboard? What is the optimal distance between keys, what is the optimal preassure that reduces strain but provides good tactile feedback, how far should you have to push a key. There must have been studies made or is everything at the whim and heuristic knowledge of the designer? /P From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 09:43:10 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 15:43:10 +0100 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Don=92t_cross_the_LHC_stream=21_=28PDP=2D11=29?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 27 September 2010 02:22, St?phane Tsacas wrote: > This video is nice : > http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2010/09/21/dont-cross-the-lhc-stream > and this is an unusual comment : > http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2010/09/21/dont-cross-the-lhc-stream/#comment-307214 Ahh, yes, I just watched that myself. Very good. I would not stick /my/ hand in there, vacuum or no vacuum! -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Sep 27 10:09:27 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 08:09:27 -0700 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net> Message-ID: <4CA0B3A7.606@brouhaha.com> Liam Proven wrote: > and the Magic mouse, while clever, makes it too > hard to right-click. As compared to the earlier Apple mice, with which it was impossible to right-click? From lynchaj at yahoo.com Mon Sep 27 10:26:30 2010 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 11:26:30 -0400 Subject: S-100 68K CPU board Message-ID: <2C8912AA460B45EF9522018121EC67C9@andrewdesktop> Hi! I've received permission from the author of "68000 Microcomputer Systems Designing and Troubleshooting" to include the S-100 68K CPU board as part of the N8VEM home brew computing project for educational purposes. This is a classic text found in many computer science and engineering courses in the 1980's and 1990's. It is possible some here recall the book from their own college and/or professional experiences. http://www.amazon.com/68000-Microcomputer-Systems-Designing-Troubleshooting/ dp/0138113998/ref=sr_1_1?s=gateway &ie=UTF8&qid=1285587152&sr=8-1 As part of that effort, I am capturing the schematic and PCB layout from the book as closely as possible. The intent is to replicate the authors' original board. There is a draft schematic and PCB layout on the N8VEM wiki here: http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/browse/#view=ViewFolder ¶m=S-100%252068K%2520CPU If anyone is interested in helping with this project please contact me. In particular, I am looking for volunteers to review the schematic and compare it against the schematic and PCB layout in the book. Due to the complexity of this board quality assurance is extremely important. Actually if anyone has one of these boards or experience with them I would be very interested in hearing from you. The plan is to make a limited run of manufactured prototype PCBs to do an initial build and test of the board. If you are an experienced builder and interested in participating in the initial build and test please contact me. The corrections/updates from the prototype board will be incorporated into a board to be made available for all the N8VEM builders as part of the S-100 project. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Mon Sep 27 11:30:35 2010 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 16:30:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <1701317000.1446566.1285604633437.JavaMail.root@sz0109a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <1749308903.1446922.1285605035083.JavaMail.root@sz0109a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> I still have an early Logitech mouse that was used with the FutureNet schematic capture program for the original IBM PC (5150). It had a special graphics card that would do ?high resolution? graphics on the IBM PC monochrome monitor This Logitech mouse was released in 1983. Here is an early advertisement. http://books.google.com/books?id=ti8EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA21 Here are some photos of my mouse. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Logitech_Logimouse_Front_1983.jpg Michael Holley From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Sep 27 12:00:57 2010 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 12:00:57 -0500 Subject: Floppy Drive Advice Message-ID: Ok, apparently my PC knowledge is dated ;) I've been working on rebuilding my Hercules setup (vm/360 with CMS and MVS/JES2). This is currently a token ring setup with a 3179 terminal going to a 3174 establishment controller. The 3174 connects to an IBM 8228 MAU. Also connected to the MAU is a token ring card in a PC running Linux/Hercules. I'm changing it to a FreeBSD PC that dualboots with FreeBSD (for hercules) and DRDOS (for PUTR which I'll use a 5.25 floppy for, and for running PromLink to attach to my Data I/O, and several other classiccmp related items that require DOS). Long story short, it will be a more "general purpose (classiccmp)" PC. I'm getting rid of the token ring card in the PC (FreeBSD dropped Olicom support, the only token ring card previously supported). So the PC running hercules will connect to an IBM 8271 ethernet switch, which connects to an IBM 2210-24M token ring/ethernet router. That will connect to the MAU and back to the 3174 and 3179. Much to my chagrin, I've become aware when I started rebuilding that PC last night with a modern mainboard that most mainboards these days that have a FDC connector (many don't even have one) which only supports ONE floppy drive. I really need to have both 5.25 and 3.5 floppy drives, and they need to be recognized by DOS (which rules out any cards that have special drivers). I can't find a PCI floppy controller, and even if I could I'm worried DRDOS won't recognize it. So, the only idea I can think of is would it be possible to put a small switch on the front panel that allows me to switch between 3.5 floppy and 5.25 floppy? I realize I'd have to reboot and change BIOS settings each time, but at least I would have to derack the PC and open the case and move cables. Any ideas if that is feasible or anyone have some other ideas? Jay From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 27 12:00:46 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 10:00:46 -0700 Subject: Screwing around (Was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4CA08D69.2080004@gmail.com> References: , <20100926140807.C35902@shell.lmi.net>, <4CA08D69.2080004@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CA06B4E.138.4FD560@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Sep 2010 at 7:26, Jules Richardson wrote: > I suppose I like to think that nobody who isn't trained in the > equipment would be allowed to mess with it - but if they've got a > cigarette dangling from their mouth at the time then they probably > deserve everything they get :-) Doesn't the ordinary backyard barbeque use a propane tank with a left- handed fitting? So much for training... --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 27 12:18:41 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 10:18:41 -0700 Subject: Floppy Drive Advice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA06F81.3070.603EEA@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Sep 2010 at 12:00, Jay West wrote: > So, the only idea I can think of is would it be possible to put a > small switch on the front panel that allows me to switch between 3.5 > floppy and 5.25 floppy? I realize I'd have to reboot and change BIOS > settings each time, but at least I would have to derack the PC and > open the case and move cables. Any ideas if that is feasible or anyone > have some other ideas? If you don't require low-level (FDC) access, there are external drives, such as the MicroSolutions Backpack that interface through the printer port and are DOS-usable. If you've got a PATA interface, an LS120 drive could give you access to a 3.5" drive, albeit not at a low level. There may be DOS-usable drivers to use a USB 3.6" drive as well. Your BIOS likely supports only a single drive, so absent the external drive proposal, yup, you're pretty much stuck with a swich. There used to be a gizmo that worked off the ISA bus years ago that provided for 3rd and 4th floppy support by switching drive selects from a 2-drive controller. --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 12:47:13 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 14:47:13 -0300 Subject: Floppy Drive Advice References: Message-ID: <054e01cb5e6c$0a56a300$6ca961bd@portajara> >So, the only idea I can think of is would it be possible to put a small >switch on the front panel that allows me to switch between 3.5 >floppy and >5.25 floppy? I realize I'd have to reboot and change BIOS settings each >time, but at least I would have to derack the PC >and open the case and >move cables. Any ideas if that is feasible or anyone have some other ideas? Jay, my knowledge may be dated too, but I have some options you may try for it. - There is NO need of having the SECOND drive set on BIOS. In DOS you can access it whenever it is set or not - There is an area on the system which lists the second drive. You can config it with some debug time - If you're going to use other OS, maybe they bypass the BIOS (linux?). - You can always use a switch that interchanges DRVSEL0 with DRVSEL1. It is a DPST switch you can wire easily. - Of course you can keep both cables outside the computer and switch them manually :) Would you mind trying the first option? I have no setup ready-to-go that I could use to verify it to you Good look Alexandre Souza, PU1BZZ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 27 12:50:23 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 10:50:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Screwing around (Was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4CA08D69.2080004@gmail.com> References: <4C9E8EF1.2060305@gmail.com> <4C9F7629.2050105@gmail.com> <20100926140807.C35902@shell.lmi.net> <4CA08D69.2080004@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100927104811.N70654@shell.lmi.net> > > Left handed threads on flammable gases are an exercise in Darwinism. > > Think about the guy with a cigarette in his mouth who smells gas, so he > > turns the gas fitting clockwise. On Mon, 27 Sep 2010, Jules Richardson wrote: > I suppose I like to think that nobody who isn't trained in the equipment > would be allowed to mess with it BBQ with hose to propane bottle? > - but if they've got a cigarette dangling from their mouth at the time > then they probably deserve everything they get :-) . . . or at least the survivors can sue the tobacco companies :-) From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 27 13:02:10 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 11:02:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floppy Drive Advice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100927105738.W70654@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 27 Sep 2010, Jay West wrote: > So, the only idea I can think of is would it be possible to put a small > switch on the front panel that allows me to switch between 3.5 floppy > and 5.25 floppy? I realize I'd have to reboot and change BIOS settings > each time, but at least I would have to derack the PC and open the case > and move cables. Any ideas if that is feasible or anyone have some other > ideas? Yes. And the "phantom B:" from early DOS single drive may let you flip the switch, instead of swapping diskettes. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 27 13:05:30 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 11:05:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floppy Drive Advice In-Reply-To: <4CA06F81.3070.603EEA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CA06F81.3070.603EEA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100927110334.P70654@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 27 Sep 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > If you don't require low-level (FDC) access, there are external > drives, such as the MicroSolutions Backpack that interface through > the printer port and are DOS-usable. If you've got a PATA interface, > an LS120 drive could give you access to a 3.5" drive, albeit not at a > low level. There may be DOS-usable drivers to use a USB 3.5" drive > as well. and Floptical is available in SCSI -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 27 13:14:50 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 11:14:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Screwing around (Was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4CA01191.70001@tx.rr.com> References: <201009262106.o8QL6k7S029146@floodgap.com> <20100926141448.O35902@shell.lmi.net> <4CA01191.70001@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20100927110950.I70654@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 26 Sep 2010, Charlie Carothers wrote: > I suppose there are some advantages to having been born in 1938. :-) I > still think the Erector set I got for Christmas when I was about 10 was > about the best present I ever got from my parents. After they passed > away in 99, when I was cleaning out one of their storage buildings I > rescued it, and I still have what was left of it out in my garage. The > last thing I built with it (a windmill) is out there too. With the > little electric motor on the base driving it I'm sure those unprotected Lots of opportunity for minor finger damage in that open gearbox! That was the blue mains powered motor with the attached red frame holding a bunch of gears on shafts that could be slid back and forth to enagage? What kinda motor drives the blades of commercial windmills, such as Altamont or Tehachapi? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 14:20:07 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 20:20:07 +0100 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4CA0B3A7.606@brouhaha.com> References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net> <4CA0B3A7.606@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 27 September 2010 16:09, Eric Smith wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: >> and the Magic mouse, while clever, makes it too >> hard to right-click. > > As compared to the earlier Apple mice, with which it was impossible to > right-click? The preceding model, the Mighty Mouse, actually has 2 microswitches beneath the shell. Although there is no visible division on the surface of the mouse, as well as scrolling both vertically and horizontally with the tiny trackball, you can also left-click, right-click and squeeze it & it detects all separately. I don't like it - I prefer more obvious, tactile buttons; it used to amuse me to use a MICROS~1 mouse on my Mac - but the Mighty Mouse /did/ support 3 or 4 button actions. The Magic Mouse, while much simpler, doesn't - but its multitouch surface does allow gestures to perform most of these actions. But I don't really need gestures. It's clever but I'd rather some clear physical buttons I can feel with my fingertips, myself. (I imagine, come to that, that the multitouch version is harder and less accessible for people with physical disabilities.) Anyway. To be fair, the model before /did/ allow right-clicking. All the ones before that, no - you had to hold down Ctrl while left-clicking. Easy enough, but a 2-handed operation. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Mon Sep 27 14:39:29 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 12:39:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net> <4CA0B3A7.606@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <832170.31636.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I actually like the gestures of the new Magic Mouse. Haven't bought one (yet), but I've been contemplating it. I'm used to using the multi-fingered gestures on my MacBook though. Sadly, the gestures only work with the OS X driver. ________________________________ From: Liam Proven To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Mon, September 27, 2010 2:20:07 PM Subject: Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse On 27 September 2010 16:09, Eric Smith wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: >> and the Magic mouse, while clever, makes it too >> hard to right-click. > > As compared to the earlier Apple mice, with which it was impossible to > right-click? The preceding model, the Mighty Mouse, actually has 2 microswitches beneath the shell. Although there is no visible division on the surface of the mouse, as well as scrolling both vertically and horizontally with the tiny trackball, you can also left-click, right-click and squeeze it & it detects all separately. I don't like it - I prefer more obvious, tactile buttons; it used to amuse me to use a MICROS~1 mouse on my Mac - but the Mighty Mouse /did/ support 3 or 4 button actions. The Magic Mouse, while much simpler, doesn't - but its multitouch surface does allow gestures to perform most of these actions. But I don't really need gestures. It's clever but I'd rather some clear physical buttons I can feel with my fingertips, myself. (I imagine, come to that, that the multitouch version is harder and less accessible for people with physical disabilities.) Anyway. To be fair, the model before /did/ allow right-clicking. All the ones before that, no - you had to hold down Ctrl while left-clicking. Easy enough, but a 2-handed operation. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 27 12:54:52 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 18:54:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Thread pitch (was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4C9F4B8C.14857.1374925@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 26, 10 01:33:00 pm Message-ID: > > I have never seen a 'real' GPIB cable with anything other than the > > double-sided connectors and jackscrews. So I wonder what cables this > > was designed to be used with. Who made it? > > I don't recall the brand, but it was a disk drive. I seem to recall > that the command set was only "sort of" HPIB; i.e. "interesting" > extensions. As far as I am aware, there is no stnadard command set for HPIB/GPIB/IEEE-488 disk drives. There are 4 that I know of, and probably many others (HP used 3 command sets : Amigo, SS/80 and CS/80, and hten there were the Comoodore drives for the PET). > I never played much with it, just had it around for a time as a > curiosity item. If thios was supposedly an HP-drive compatible device, it would be interesting to find out what it was. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 27 13:17:26 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 19:17:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Screwing around (Was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <20100926141448.O35902@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Sep 26, 10 02:21:07 pm Message-ID: > But they never understood tools. My father never understood that there > was more than one size of Philips screwdrivers, and always thought that a Like the neighbour who asaked me for a 'small cross screwdriver' and didn't realise tht Phillips != Pozidriv, and that small to me means size 000 or 0000 :-) > soldering iron was a big pistol shaped thing with a trigger, that all auto I thought it was a thing with a block of copper on the end that you heat in a gas flame. It isn't? This might explan why am having problems with these new-fangled SMD parts... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 27 13:11:44 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 19:11:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Screwing around (Was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <0c3b01cb5dbc$814504d0$6400a8c0@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Sep 26, 10 05:48:02 pm Message-ID: > > I think I've mentioend before that these days my parents would probably > > be guilty of child cruelty or something. My 8th (I think) birthday > > prsennt consisted of things like a woodworking tenon saw, a junior > > hacksaw, a set of twist drills, a wheelbrace (hand drill) to use them in, > > a small vice, and so on. Yes, I ahve cut myslef with them over the years. > > But no, I have had no serious injuries from tools ever... And I do thank > > my parents for encouraging my hackish tendencies. > > Children are become more and more stupid everyday! Things like lego, > mecano, educational kits and good junior tools are almost nonexistent as > gifts. Children prefer a brand new PS3 :oP Ah, but to they? Or is it that kids today are only offered totally mindless toys (like most electronic games) and don't realise there are other things they could be doing. I wonder how many kids would like boulding things, etc, if they were given the chance. FWIW, my favourite constructional toy was FischerTechnik. I never had enough to do everything I wanted (it was very expensive in the UK), espcially the electronics modules. I made my own versions of some of them, and I sometimes wired up circuits on stripboard and connected them to the FischerTechnick motors, etc. Yes, I still ahve all the FT I ever owned. Still use it sometimes, along with the commerical BBC micro interface I bought on E-bay and the homebrew HP48 interface. I did once ask for an get an electronic game. It was the Milton-Bradely 'Microvison' (nothing to do with the Sinclair pocket TV). Stece Ciarcia has mentioned it in his article on LCD displays, and I wanted to investigate the display in this game. It's a 16*16 dot matrix device, at a time when such things wrre not ocmmon. The main unit contains a custom driver chip only, the cartrige contains a TMS1000 microcontroller. It didn't take me long (even at that age) to work ou the basic connectoions between them (given the TMS1000 data sheet), and from said data sheet I discovered the TMS1000 could be clocked as slowly as you liked. So I added a larger capacitor to the clock circuit to slow it down, and hung LEDs and series resistors off the TMS1000 pins that went to the display driver. I think I got it to change state at <1Hz. I then wrote down the patterns and eventially made sense of them (it's soemthing like : Send 8 nybbles t odefine the state of the 32 lines going to the display, the first nybble has a sync line set also. Then sent the complement (to drive the display with AC), and repeat.) Doing that was much more fun that playing the 'breakout' game that came with it :-) Did I mention that I rarely used (or use) my toys as expected... > > And there were many more electronic kits (as in solder a device together) > > around back then than there are now. It's dubious how mucyh electronics > > you learnt by assembling a Heathkit, say, but you did certianly get > > practice with tools, and you might be inpsired to find out more about > > what you were doing and why. > > At least you're having some "hands-on" with REAL electronics, and don't > think there is a bunch of chineses painting the screen on the television > (they must be real thin in newer flat-panel televisions). So you get > interested into subject and learn about it. That'as basically my point. You won't learn muc electroncis just soldering up a Heathkit or somilar, but you will get to see and handle the components, you'll use the tools, and you may get interested in finding out more. And then you start reading books on electronics, and so on. I certainly feel you're more likely to want to find out about electronics if you've assembled a few kits than if you haven't. > > So bad we live in the age of information, and children lives in the age > of stupidity :( At the start of this year's HPCC conference I quoted a paragraph from 'The Voice of the Crystal'. Basically it said that people (as a whole) have never been better educated, and that there's never been more information available, but we don't know how to _think_ any more. Unfortuantely I feel that is exactly right. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 27 13:25:08 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 19:25:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Screwing around (Was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <20100926142353.U35902@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Sep 26, 10 02:29:21 pm Message-ID: > > > On 24/09/10 22:38, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I've seen left-handed taps and dies on sale. And of course it's easy to > > > cut a left-hand thread on a lathe. But I have never seen LH nuts an bolts > > > listed by any company in the UK. But I've not seriously looked for them. > > On Sat, 25 Sep 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > PTS (or someone like them) could probably make them up if you really > > wanted them... > > I know that Philip didn't intend it that way, but it is humorous to think > that anybody could expect that ARD would need to have somebody else make > them up! :-). I harv, of course. cut plenty of threads... Male threads can generally be cut on lathe if you dont have the right size die (even if you do, it's good practice to cut them to most of the depth on the lathe and finish them with the die). Female threads can also be cut on a lathe but only if they're over about 10mm. Below that you can't fit the cutting tool into the hole. Nuts of all shapes and sizes are easy enough to make (although even I don't make things that standard M3 nuts myself.). Cutting the threads on bolts is also quite easy, the problem is making the head. Hexagon heads (of any size) are not hard, nor are slotted heads for a normal screwriver.But making Allen socket heads, Torx heads or Phillips/Pozidriv heads really neads a suitable punch and a press. > > > Even I have made RH nuts and bolts. > A set of LH taps and dies would be FUN! A web search should find soemthing. I know a company who claims they can get LH taps and Dies for, IIRC, 3* the price of the corresponding RH one. In generaly you buy these individually, in the sizes you need. > There is a mechanical puzzle that includes a bottle with a stick in it, > with a nut and screw through the stick, and to solve the puzzle, one has > to unscrew the nut while it is in the bottle. > I wanna make one of those with LH threads :-) Evil ! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 27 13:29:32 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 19:29:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Screwing around (Was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4C9F59E9.21590.16F6400@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 26, 10 02:34:17 pm Message-ID: > > Which is what I did--consider that the usual way has you pulling on > the vavle (toward you) to turn the water on--just what you don't want > if you're hands are full of sticky dough. With the direction > reversed, you can bump the water on with your elbow. Another benefit > is that the faucet handles don't protrude into the sink when the > water's on. There's a customer toilet in a shop somewhere in the London area (I am tryuign to remembr where) where the washbasin has a pair of taps like this. It's fairly obvious which way you have ot move the levers when you want to turn them on (moving them the other way would push them into the wall), but every time I've used it, I forget which way is off and end up turning at least one tap on full-blast. Not that it does any real harm :-) As a Physicist (at leat on paper) it annoys me that clod taps are coloured blue and hot taps are coloured red (at least over here). Red heat is a lot colder than blue heat to me :-) But the convention is so well-known that if I put my own taps the other way round, even I would get it wrong sometimes... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 27 13:32:34 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 19:32:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help resurrect my Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <4C9FDCB7.2070604@comcast.net> from "Nick Allen" at Sep 26, 10 06:52:23 pm Message-ID: > > Excellent! This explains a lot. The CRT wasn't producing high > voltage when connected to the PET or when powered on stand alone. I do > believe it WAS producing high voltage when connected to the alto, hence > the video card on the alto should then be outputting signal! Make > sense, am I understanding your post correctly? Yes, that sounds right. The monitor need a horizontal sync/drive signal from the Alto for the HV section to operate. Without it (for excample if the poniteir is powered on its own), there will be bo high voltage. This singal also needs to be the right frequency, which probably explains wny it didn't work when connected to the PET In fact driving it off-frequency could, I think, do damage, much as plugging an IBM5151 MDA monuitor into a CGA card causes magic smoke to escape. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 27 14:05:39 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 20:05:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4C9FE94F.3060600@jetnet.ab.ca> from "ben" at Sep 26, 10 06:46:07 pm Message-ID: > I found reading about the IBM MODEL M keyboard more interesting. > My computer just died, and had to buy a new one. The USB keyboard that Hmmm... I guess that's why I have test gear ;-) > came with it, is too cheap with too many keys that I can't type with it. > So I got looking for 'THE BEST KEY BOARD MADE' on the web, > and I ordered a NEW refurbished model M and the correct USB adapter > to go with it. So what, key boards do you all use, if for don't have a > DEC terminal online? I prefer an IBM Model M, period. Mine is currently in need of cleaning, and minor repairs (I do this from time to time), so I am currnetly using a horrible cheap thing with rubber domes and membrane contacts [1]. It's not at all pleasnt or reliable (and although I've only had it a month or so, the legends are already wearing fof the keys [2]. Must get that Model M fixed... [1] The modem M is actually a membrane contact device, but it has bucling spings and flaps to actuate it, and it feels a lot nicer. [2] Yes, I do rememebr dual-shot-moulded keycaps. Many of my machines have them. And those to not wear off. Other keyboards I quite like are the VT100 one, the HP9826/9836 and the 'clicky' HP keybaords used on the HP150, Integral and the earlier HP-HIL one (46020). I don;t like the later HP-HIL keyboard (46021) which is a capacitive matrix design, or the DEC LK201. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 27 14:18:54 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 20:18:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Advice for scanning docs In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Sep 27, 10 01:24:28 am Message-ID: > > On Sun, 26 Sep 2010, Steven Hirsch wrote: > > > All, > > > > I'm trying to scan some documentation on "IBM PC" sized 3-hole paper. For > > some reason the scanner is prone to pulling multiple sheets through when > > doing the reverse sides. Doesn't seem to have this issue when doing the > > facing side. I haven't seen this with US letter size paper, either. > > > > Wondering if anyone has any tips for avoiding this? > > > > The scanner is a Umax Astra 2400S w/ Umax sheet feeder. > > The first thing that comes to mind is static cling. Check the room > humidity, if possible, and/or get some antistatic spray. My thought is more mechanical. Is there a noticable burr round the holes in the pages (some manuals are prone to this) which is more likely to catch with the pages one way up or one way round? Have you tried scanning the back sidees with the pages rotated by $\pi$ (and then correct in software later). It may be they slip more easily that way. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 27 14:27:41 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 20:27:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Screwing around (Was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4CA08D69.2080004@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Sep 27, 10 07:26:17 am Message-ID: > I suppose I like to think that nobody who isn't trained in the equipment would > be allowed to mess with it - but if they've got a cigarette dangling from > their mouth at the time then they probably deserve everything they get :-) You might want to rephrase the first part of that. I have never been trained in computer repair. Or in soldering, Or in using machine tools. Or in classic computing in general. Or in.... from "Jules Richardson" at Sep 27, 10 07:43:47 am Message-ID: > > I think I've mentioend before that these days my parents would probably > > be guilty of child cruelty or something. My 8th (I think) birthday > > prsennt consisted of things like a woodworking tenon saw, a junior > > hacksaw, a set of twist drills, a wheelbrace (hand drill) to use them in, > > a small vice, and so on. > > Now I'm jealous ;-) Those are hardly exotic tools :-) > > I was really interested in that Technic Lego that used to be around - I spent > many an hour designing gearboxes and the like. I'm not sure if you can even > get the stuff these days (or if it's anything like it used to be - gradually I think it is still available. A few years back I was in a Lego shop in, IIRC, Bluewater (a larger shopping centre to the East of London) and they certianly had it. In fact you could buy an empty box form them in various sizes (cost more as it got larger) and fill it with yor own assortment of parts, and the Technical gears, spindles, etc were there. The first version of Lego Mindstorms used the nroaml Technical mechancial bits. I have no idea what the latest one uses. > there were more and more custom parts creeping into the model kits, and of > course anyone with a real interest in that stuff built the kit model once and > then used the parts to create their own things) Of course. Hackery does not come from follwoing the instructions :-) FischerTechnik, alas, went the same way. The stuff I grew up loving was very general-purpose with few custom aprts. Even the electronics stuff was things like relay moduels, analoughe comparator modules, etc. Now, apprently, you get a pre-built and configured black box for the projects in that kit. Bletch!. Maybe after I desing a multimeter I should design an educational construction toy. Now, should the basic kit include enought bits to make a fairly accurate mini-lathe so you can make more parts yourself :-) > > > I certianly think there are fewer constructional toys around now than > > there were perhaps 30 or 40 eyars ago. I must have over a dozen > > different educational electronics systems, and none of them are Heathkit > > :-). As I've said before, I think the Philips EE kits were the most fun, > > but teher were others. > > I was probably around 7 when I got one of those ones with the bendy springs > and a bunch of wires for making connections to components that were mounted on > the board - it was a good introduction to electronics. I don't remember how I know them.... I always preferec the Philips kits becauise the components weren't pre-mounted (as in thost bendy-spring ones) or hidden inside modules (Electroni-kit, Braun Lectron, etc). With the Philis EE kits you got to handle and conenct 'loose' resistors, capacitors, etc. OK, the transistors (BC148 and BF194 in Lokfit packages) were pre-soldered ot little PCBs that fittedo not the spring terminals, but everything else was just 'real' components. So of course you could trivially add extra components yourself... The kits I had had some interesting projects including both common forms of AF signal generaotr (diode-mxing a pair of RF oscillators and taking the beat frequency ; The Wein bridge osicllator with a lamp to stabilise the gain (OK, it was transiotrised, but it's nice to have a kit that lets you build something a bit like an HP200) and various suiperhet radios (most enducational kits don't go beyond TRF recievers). I never had the add-on kits that weren't sold in the UK, like the one with the CRT or the TV tuner module... To get the sliightly closer to being on topic, has anyone else here come acros the Philps CL1600 series of eductional digital electronics modules? -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Sep 27 14:55:55 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 15:55:55 -0400 Subject: Screwing around (Was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA0F6CB.4020604@neurotica.com> On 9/27/10 3:27 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I suppose I like to think that nobody who isn't trained in the equipment would >> be allowed to mess with it - but if they've got a cigarette dangling from >> their mouth at the time then they probably deserve everything they get :-) > > You might want to rephrase the first part of that. I have never been > trained in computer repair. Or in soldering, Or in using machine tools. > Or in classic computing in general. Or in.... assocaite me with :-)). Do you feel I shouldn't be allowed, say, to mess > with an HP9830? "I'm highly educated. I just didn't get that education in a school." Our society is quick to dismiss any learning that doesn't happen within the four walls of a school. Or worse yet, they insist that it's impossible to learn in any other way. This is complete bullshit, of course, but like the Emperor's new clothes, most companies don't want to admit that it's the non-degreed fellow in the low-paying position that keeps the whole place running, rather than the expensive PhD (present company excluded of course!) whose hiring resulted in a press release. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 27 15:01:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 21:01:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Floppy Drive Advice In-Reply-To: <054e01cb5e6c$0a56a300$6ca961bd@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Sep 27, 10 02:47:13 pm Message-ID: > > >So, the only idea I can think of is would it be possible to put a small > >switch on the front panel that allows me to switch between 3.5 >floppy and > >5.25 floppy? I realize I'd have to reboot and change BIOS settings each > >time, but at least I would have to derack the PC >and open the case and > >move cables. Any ideas if that is feasible or anyone have some other ideas? > > Jay, my knowledge may be dated too, but I have some options you may try > for it. > > - There is NO need of having the SECOND drive set on BIOS. In DOS you > can access it whenever it is set or not I think the problem is that many modern motherboards don't have the pins of the second drive select and MotorOn signal wired up. Whether the signals exist on accessible pins of an I/O chip I don't know (if they do, it may be possible to add jumper wires, but some people are afraid of soldering to motherboards). If the pins on the connector are not driven, then no amount of software will let ou use a second drive. [...] > - You can always use a switch that interchanges DRVSEL0 with DRVSEL1. It > is a DPST switch you can wire easily. You also want to switch the MotorOn line. That needs a DPDT switch (one pole switches the mototherobard drive sleect line to the right drive, the other pole handles MotorOn). Not dififcult to do, of course. -tony From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 14:58:42 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 16:58:42 -0300 Subject: Screwing around (Was: Multimeter recomendations References: Message-ID: <070701cb5e7e$ae46d900$6ca961bd@portajara> >> Children are become more and more stupid everyday! Things like lego, >> mecano, educational kits and good junior tools are almost nonexistent as >> gifts. Children prefer a brand new PS3 :oP > Ah, but to they? Or is it that kids today are only offered totally > mindless toys (like most electronic games) and don't realise there are > other things they could be doing. I wonder how many kids would like > boulding things, etc, if they were given the chance. If you reread my sentence, you'll see that is what exactely I said :) > At the start of this year's HPCC conference I quoted a paragraph from > 'The Voice of the Crystal'. Basically it said that people (as a whole) > have never been better educated, and that there's never been more > information available, but we don't know how to _think_ any more. > Unfortuantely I feel that is exactly right. I don't agree. There's never been more information avaiable. I still remember when I was 14 (1991) that I bought my TTL Data Book (second edition, orange hard cover) and paid $150 for it - 10 months paying $15 and I'm talking american dollars here. Nowadays everything is on the net, and even here in Brazil it isn't so hard to have SOME kind of conectivity and some old but useful computer. Why people isn't more clever/better educated/more polite/more happy than before? Of course, because children spends all the net time seeing rap videos on youtube and posting/seeing photos on Orkut... (did I also said playing GTA?) Sad, sad but true. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 27 15:02:49 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 13:02:49 -0700 Subject: Floppy Drive Advice In-Reply-To: <20100927110334.P70654@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4CA06F81.3070.603EEA@cclist.sydex.com>, <20100927110334.P70654@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CA095F9.9458.F68281@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Sep 2010 at 11:05, Fred Cisin wrote: > and Floptical is available in SCSI As is plain old floppy (e.g. Teac FD235HS). --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 15:03:01 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 17:03:01 -0300 Subject: Screwing around (Was: Multimeter recomendations References: <4CA0F6CB.4020604@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <072601cb5e7f$22948f50$6ca961bd@portajara> > "I'm highly educated. I just didn't get that education in a school." Uau, that was the phrase of the year :D Being copied to my MSN right now ;) > Our society is quick to dismiss any learning that doesn't happen From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 27 15:04:36 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 13:04:36 -0700 Subject: Thread pitch (was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: References: <4C9F4B8C.14857.1374925@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 26, 10 01:33:00 pm, Message-ID: <4CA09664.12044.F8244A@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Sep 2010 at 18:54, Tony Duell wrote: > If thios was supposedly an HP-drive compatible device, it would be > interesting to find out what it was. Well it wasn't HP-branded for certain and the connector was labeled "GPIB" as I recall. Long ago in the past and not interesting enough to hoard. --Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Sep 27 15:11:25 2010 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 15:11:25 -0500 Subject: Floppy Drive Advice References: <054e01cb5e6c$0a56a300$6ca961bd@portajara> Message-ID: <7A0D8477FB2648B89BDE62B49A0D5486@osa.local> Alexandre wrote.... > - There is NO need of having the SECOND drive set on BIOS. In DOS you > can access it whenever it is set or not > - There is an area on the system which lists the second drive. You can > config it with some debug time > - You can always use a switch that interchanges DRVSEL0 with DRVSEL1. > It is a DPST switch you can wire easily. I noticed on the FDC on the mainboard, there's maybe 2 or 3 pins that are noticably absent from the normal connector. Perhaps they absconded with the signals. I know absolutely nothing about the floppy drive interface & cable signals. However, I need to build a custom cable anyways (as the existing cable has an odd placement of the connectors, causing major twists in the ribbon cable to get them right). I did notice that when powering up the system, the 3.5 floppy drive light flashes for a moment but the 5.25 drive never flashes. On an Old Tyme mainboard, this exact cable situated as it is now - definitely worked for both drives. > - Of course you can keep both cables outside the computer and switch > them manually :) Uggg. And mess up my nice rackmount Herc setup? No way ;) I recently added a wireless bridge/switch to the rack, so that I can get internet to the thing down in the basement from my wireless router upstairs. That part works like a champ. Once this is all done, I'll have to look for a TCP stack for DOS. I think Trumpet Winsock was strictly a windows thing. But perhaps DRDOS (full install, not minimal) has support for this. But not thinking I'll find a packet driver for a modern mainboard on-board NIC. I was also thinking of putting a third partition on the drive, for those few times when I absolutely must boot up windoze for some reason or another. > Would you mind trying the first option? I have no setup ready-to-go > that I could use to verify it to you It will be a few days before I can try this option. Wife has a big "to-do" at our house so the next couple days will be honey-do's to get ready for it. Then I can get back to it and try. If not, perhaps someone can give me the pinouts or diagram of how to lash up a cable that that connects to the mainboard, lets drivesel go to the switch, and then hits the 5.25 edge-card connector and the 3.5 IDC connector. I have an IBM terminal question, but I'll start a new subject for that solicitation ;) Best, J From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Sep 27 15:15:34 2010 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 15:15:34 -0500 Subject: IBM 3179 terminal(s) wanted Message-ID: Ok, as NICE as a pair of 3278 or 3279's would look in my herc setup - those aren't likely to be reasonably found. So I was looking for one or two 3179 terms to act as CMS or TSO user terminals. Anyone have some in working condition that they'd like to trade off? J From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 27 15:20:23 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 21:20:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Screwing around (Was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4CA0F6CB.4020604@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 27, 10 03:55:55 pm Message-ID: > >> I suppose I like to think that nobody who isn't trained in the equipment would > >> be allowed to mess with it - but if they've got a cigarette dangling from > >> their mouth at the time then they probably deserve everything they get :-) > > > > You might want to rephrase the first part of that. I have never been > > trained in computer repair. Or in soldering, Or in using machine tools. > > Or in classic computing in general. Or in.... > assocaite me with :-)). Do you feel I shouldn't be allowed, say, to mess > > with an HP9830? > > "I'm highly educated. I just didn't get that education in a school." I could certianly claim the second aprt of that. The firsr part is open to debate ;-) However, I would argue that there is a difference betwene education and training in that the second implies (at least to me) being shown how to do something and being expected to follow that procedure. Mind you, I do have a license for 'self training in wireless telegraphy' :-) > Our society is quick to dismiss any learning that doesn't happen > within the four walls of a school. Or worse yet, they insist that it's > impossible to learn in any other way. Tell me about it. It really annoys me. The powers-that-be need to realise that there are people who ahve taught themselves things to a very high level, and are quite capable of applying that knowledge... Put it this way : You need to emply a guy as a C++ programmer. Who would _you_ rather have : A chap who has a bit of paper saying he knows C++, based on the fact he did a 2-week course in the language, but has no other programming experience A chap who's never written C++ and has no programming qualifications at all. On the other hand he's taught himself to program in serveral languages and has written many thousands of lines of plain C. I know who I'd rather have. And I know, alas, who the HR department would pick. > > This is complete bullshit, of course, but like the Emperor's new > clothes, most companies don't want to admit that it's the non-degreed > fellow in the low-paying position that keeps the whole place running, > rather than the expensive PhD (present company excluded of course!) > whose hiring resulted in a press release. ACtually, I could argue that a Ph.D. at least the way I, and my parents, did it involves a lot of self-teaching, and a lot of hands-on work. Maybe some don't, though ;-( But a first degree (BA/BSc) over here involves almost no origianl thought or hands-on expeirence at all most of the time. And it shows, I despair when I hear of people with degrees in electronic engeineering who've never soldered antything toghter, and people with degrees in mechancial engineering who wouldn't recognise a lathe if it got up and bit them. -tony From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 15:19:19 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 17:19:19 -0300 Subject: Floppy Drive Advice References: <054e01cb5e6c$0a56a300$6ca961bd@portajara> <7A0D8477FB2648B89BDE62B49A0D5486@osa.local> Message-ID: <074401cb5e81$48904e40$6ca961bd@portajara> > Then I can get back to it and try. If not, perhaps someone can give me the > pinouts or diagram of how to lash up a cable that that connects to the > mainboard, lets drivesel go to the switch, and then hits the 5.25 > edge-card connector and the 3.5 IDC connector. Just a moment! :D http://pinouts.ru/Storage/InternalDisk_pinout.shtml Seems easy enough. And thanks Tony that remembered that the motor ON signals have to be swapped too. Just swap pins 10 and 14 to pins 16 and 12. You can use a DPDT switch for that. If you want a drawing of how the switch must be wired, e-mail me in PVT. (just asking, because not everyone understands that switch things :)) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 27 15:26:10 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 21:26:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Screwing around (Was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <070701cb5e7e$ae46d900$6ca961bd@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Sep 27, 10 04:58:42 pm Message-ID: > > At the start of this year's HPCC conference I quoted a paragraph from > > 'The Voice of the Crystal'. Basically it said that people (as a whole) > > have never been better educated, and that there's never been more > > information available, but we don't know how to _think_ any more. > > Unfortuantely I feel that is exactly right. > > I don't agree. There's never been more information avaiable. I still Exactly. That's what the quote was saying (and I agree with it). Today : People are provavly better educated than any time in the past There is more indromation available than at any time in the past But : People no longer think :-( > remember when I was 14 (1991) that I bought my TTL Data Book (second > edition, orange hard cover) and paid $150 for it - 10 months paying $15 and Ouch!. I can remember buing various databooks in the mid 1980s (Texas TTL, Zilog microprocessors, Motorola 8-bit processors/peripherals and so on). They were typically \pounds 15 to \pounds 20 each. Quite expensive for a schoolboy at the time, but cheaper than you had to pay. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Sep 27 15:30:35 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 16:30:35 -0400 Subject: Screwing around (Was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA0FEEB.7030508@neurotica.com> On 9/27/10 4:20 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> I suppose I like to think that nobody who isn't trained in the equipment would >>>> be allowed to mess with it - but if they've got a cigarette dangling from >>>> their mouth at the time then they probably deserve everything they get :-) >>> >>> You might want to rephrase the first part of that. I have never been >>> trained in computer repair. Or in soldering, Or in using machine tools. >>> Or in classic computing in general. Or in....>> assocaite me with :-)). Do you feel I shouldn't be allowed, say, to mess >>> with an HP9830? >> >> "I'm highly educated. I just didn't get that education in a school." > > I could certianly claim the second aprt of that. The firsr part is open > to debate ;-) > > However, I would argue that there is a difference betwene education and > training in that the second implies (at least to me) being shown how to > do something and being expected to follow that procedure. Mind you, I do > have a license for 'self training in wireless telegraphy' :-) I have a similar belief. The word "training" to me implies "nothing more than rote memorization" with no understanding of any concepts or science. >> Our society is quick to dismiss any learning that doesn't happen >> within the four walls of a school. Or worse yet, they insist that it's >> impossible to learn in any other way. > > Tell me about it. It really annoys me. The powers-that-be need to realise > that there are people who ahve taught themselves things to a very high > level, and are quite capable of applying that knowledge... Not many businesspeople understand this. Keep in mind, though, that most management types think of (for example) computer programmers as "glorified typists" (actual quote from upper-level manager), and often think of any I.T. work as "mind-numbing digital toil" (actual quote from BusinessWeek Magazine article, around 2003). What we do is to be "trained", not "understood" or "mastered", and we are all interchangeable (barely-) skilled laborers. In other words, the people in control have NO CLUE, and society is circling the drain as a result. > Put it this way : You need to emply a guy as a C++ programmer. Who would > _you_ rather have : > > A chap who has a bit of paper saying he knows C++, based on the fact he > did a 2-week course in the language, but has no other programming experience > > A chap who's never written C++ and has no programming qualifications at > all. On the other hand he's taught himself to program in serveral > languages and has written many thousands of lines of plain C. > > I know who I'd rather have. And I know, alas, who the HR department would > pick. Yep, exactly. >> This is complete bullshit, of course, but like the Emperor's new >> clothes, most companies don't want to admit that it's the non-degreed >> fellow in the low-paying position that keeps the whole place running, >> rather than the expensive PhD (present company excluded of course!) >> whose hiring resulted in a press release. > > ACtually, I could argue that a Ph.D. at least the way I, and my parents, > did it involves a lot of self-teaching, and a lot of hands-on work. Maybe > some don't, though ;-( Many don't. I've worked with a few. > But a first degree (BA/BSc) over here involves almost no origianl thought > or hands-on expeirence at all most of the time. And it shows, I despair > when I hear of people with degrees in electronic engeineering who've > never soldered antything toghter, and people with degrees in mechancial > engineering who wouldn't recognise a lathe if it got up and bit them. Yep. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 27 15:35:23 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 21:35:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Floppy Drive Advice In-Reply-To: <7A0D8477FB2648B89BDE62B49A0D5486@osa.local> from "Jay West" at Sep 27, 10 03:11:25 pm Message-ID: > I noticed on the FDC on the mainboard, there's maybe 2 or 3 pins that are > noticably absent from the normal connector. Perhaps they absconded with the > signals. I know absolutely nothing about the floppy drive interface & cable On a normal flopy conenctor the pins are numbered like this 1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 31 32 33 34 Pin one is normally marked, it's near the coloured edge of the cable. Now, on PC floppy drives, all the odd numbered pins -- the entire column -- are grounds. All the signals are on even numbered pins [I specified PC drives here, becuase in a few systemsm, there are drives with 34 pin connecotrs that don't have a speparate power conenctor. Instead some of the odd numbered pins are +5V, some are +12V, and the rest are grounds. Also, I have pet drives where there's an active signal on pin 1, but not in PCs] Ok after that aside... 17 grounds is enoguh for anyone, and it wasn't uncommon for one of those pins to be missing on some machines, and the corrisopondign hole on the socket (on the cable) to be blocked up. That way, the cable would only fit the floppy drive conenctor (other 34 pin conenctors i nthe machine had different pins missing), and only the right way round. Made it easier for field servoids... If your floppy connector is misisng a couple of odd-numbered gound pins, then nothing to worry about. But if it is missing some signal pins, it's quite posible (likely?) that what's misisng are the drive sleect and motor on signals for the second drive. Using the pin numbering I've shown, what pin numbwes are not rhere. IIRC it's 10,12,14,16 that carry the drive sleect and motor on lines on a PC. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Sep 27 15:34:01 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 16:34:01 -0400 Subject: IBM 3179 terminal(s) wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA0FFB9.3090301@neurotica.com> On 9/27/10 4:15 PM, Jay West wrote: > Ok, as NICE as a pair of 3278 or 3279's would look in my herc setup - those aren't likely to be reasonably found. So I was looking for one or two 3179 terms to act as CMS or TSO user terminals. Anyone have some in working condition that they'd like to trade off? Me too. I'm also looking for a physically small establishment controller with an Ethernet interface, OR a token ring option board and cable set for a 3174-51R. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 27 15:46:16 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 13:46:16 -0700 Subject: Floppy Drive Advice In-Reply-To: References: <054e01cb5e6c$0a56a300$6ca961bd@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Sep 27, 10 02:47:13 pm, Message-ID: <4CA0A028.10763.11E48D1@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Sep 2010 at 21:01, Tony Duell wrote: > I think the problem is that many modern motherboards don't have the > pins of the second drive select and MotorOn signal wired up. Whether > the signals exist on accessible pins of an I/O chip I don't know (if > they do, it may be possible to add jumper wires, but some people are > afraid of soldering to motherboards). In most modern motherboards,the FDC is tucked into a corner of the Southbridge chip (or on the combo south/north chip) and the signals for only one floppy are materialized. I've seen this on a lot of not- so-modern Pentium 3 booards, so it's not a new trend. What was the Intel(?) chipset that could be configured to support an additional floppy on the parallel port? I recall being a little surprised to see that, but now I don't recall the specifics. There's also at least one chipset that allows for an additional drive by decoding the motor and drive-select lines (probably something like "selected, but motor off), but I don't recall the details either. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 27 15:48:09 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 13:48:09 -0700 Subject: Keyboards (again) [WAS: Evolution of the Apple Mouse] In-Reply-To: <20100927144055.GA16693@Update.UU.SE> References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net>, , <20100927144055.GA16693@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4CA0A099.21424.120041D@cclist.sydex.com> I have a soft spot in my heart for the IBM DisplayWriter keyboard-- built like a tank. I don't suppose that anyone has a spare? :) --Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Sep 27 15:51:48 2010 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 15:51:48 -0500 Subject: IBM 3179 terminal(s) wanted References: <4CA0FFB9.3090301@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <31B50B8EC8504D469CD820BB3F1651F1@osa.local> Dave wrote.... >... OR a token ring option board and cable set for a 3174-51R. I got my token ring option board from lordsnet.com. I told the guy what all I was doing, and he gave me "hobbyist pricing". I think he also included a set of version C microcode disks, as that version is required for reverse3270. I think I also picked up a second floppy drive and maybe some memory from him - so I could run version C. J From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 27 16:07:52 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 22:07:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Screwing around (Was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4CA0FEEB.7030508@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 27, 10 04:30:35 pm Message-ID: > > Tell me about it. It really annoys me. The powers-that-be need to realise > > that there are people who ahve taught themselves things to a very high > > level, and are quite capable of applying that knowledge... > > Not many businesspeople understand this. Keep in mind, though, that > most management types think of (for example) computer programmers as > "glorified typists" (actual quote from upper-level manager), and often Ouch!. There's also the widely-held belief that learning to program mainly invloves learning where to up the semicolons in a C program (or equivalent). Whereas to me (not a programmer, I admit), that's something you can look up if you need to, and 'programming' is much more about how to analyse the problem, choose suitable algorithms and data structures , and express those algorithems in the chosen language. Actually getting the syntax correct is a minor part of it. > think of any I.T. work as "mind-numbing digital toil" (actual quote from > BusinessWeek Magazine article, around 2003). What we do is to be > "trained", not "understood" or "mastered", and we are all > interchangeable (barely-) skilled laborers. And we wonder why this world is in a right old mess... > > In other words, the people in control have NO CLUE, and society is > circling the drain as a result. Ahm you said much the same thing. > > ACtually, I could argue that a Ph.D. at least the way I, and my parents, > > did it involves a lot of self-teaching, and a lot of hands-on work. Maybe > > some don't, though ;-( > > Many don't. I've worked with a few. I wonder if that;s a worldwide problem. At least over here, the Ph.D. work is supposed ot 'advance the subject' in some way. I was perhaps lucky in working a department run by, and containing people who had no objection to getting their hands dirty (literally sometimes...) -tony From tosteve at yahoo.com Mon Sep 27 17:15:23 2010 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 15:15:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP 9816, and more, available in Eugene, Oregon Message-ID: <902736.55896.qm@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Dallas Hemphill has: 2 HP-9816 systems 2 HP-9121 disk drives 2 keyboards 2 6-pen plotters 1 2225A printer cables, operating system, software, and lots of manuals, from about 1983. contact Dallas if interested: dallashemphill at hotmail.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I apologize if you received more than one email - Yahoo "Classic" does this. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 00:11:34 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 15:11:34 +1000 Subject: seeking enter keycap for IBM Model 11C electric typewriter Message-ID: http://library.rider.edu/special_collections/typewriters/ibm1.jpg I am currently minding one of these on its journey to a local museum, but it is missing the enter/return key cap [*], if anyone has a spare please I would be willing to pay postage. The console I have was once used with the local Elliott Brothers Elliott 503 computer. thanks. [*] large square key cap seen at the right hand side of the keyboard. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 28 00:41:58 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 22:41:58 -0700 Subject: seeking enter keycap for IBM Model 11C electric typewriter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA11DB6.11630.308BD94@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Sep 2010 at 15:11, Nigel Williams wrote: > http://library.rider.edu/special_collections/typewriters/ibm1.jpg > > I am currently minding one of these on its journey to a local museum, > but it is missing the enter/return key cap [*], if anyone has a spare > please I would be willing to pay postage. > > The console I have was once used with the local Elliott Brothers > Elliott 503 computer. IBM Model B? Looks exactly like the one on an IBM 1620. --Chuck From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 00:45:57 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 15:45:57 +1000 Subject: seeking enter keycap for IBM Model 11C electric typewriter In-Reply-To: <4CA11DB6.11630.308BD94@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CA11DB6.11630.308BD94@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 3:41 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > IBM Model B? ?Looks exactly like the one on an IBM 1620. Could be, checkout the description here as to the myriad of closely related models: http://www.mrmartinweb.com/type.htm I can provide identifying marks from the typewriter if that would help or needed; I am assuming the keycap is the same for most of these models (at least judging by the pictures). From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 28 00:52:58 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 22:52:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: seeking enter keycap for IBM Model 11C electric typewriter In-Reply-To: <4CA11DB6.11630.308BD94@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CA11DB6.11630.308BD94@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100927225153.Y97740@shell.lmi.net> > > but it is missing the enter/return key cap [*], if anyone has a spare > > please I would be willing to pay postage. On Mon, 27 Sep 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > IBM Model B? Looks exactly like the one on an IBM 1620. So, the solution would be to scrap a 1620 to get one? From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 06:37:59 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 07:37:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Advice for scanning docs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Sep 2010, David Griffith wrote: > On Sun, 26 Sep 2010, Steven Hirsch wrote: > >> All, >> >> I'm trying to scan some documentation on "IBM PC" sized 3-hole paper. For >> some reason the scanner is prone to pulling multiple sheets through when >> doing the reverse sides. Doesn't seem to have this issue when doing the >> facing side. I haven't seen this with US letter size paper, either. >> >> Wondering if anyone has any tips for avoiding this? >> >> The scanner is a Umax Astra 2400S w/ Umax sheet feeder. > > The first thing that comes to mind is static cling. Check the room > humidity, if possible, and/or get some antistatic spray. That's a good thought. Will give that one a shot. After looking closely at the paper, it also seems like the punched binding holes may be interlocking very slightly. Not quite sure how to work around it, though. Steve -- From jws at jwsss.com Mon Sep 27 09:08:59 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 07:08:59 -0700 Subject: Advice for scanning docs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA0A57B.40308@jwsss.com> On 9/26/2010 6:38 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > All, > > I'm trying to scan some documentation on "IBM PC" sized 3-hole paper. > For some reason the scanner is prone to pulling multiple sheets > through when doing the reverse sides. Doesn't seem to have this issue > when doing the facing side. I haven't seen this with US letter size > paper, either. > > Wondering if anyone has any tips for avoiding this? > > The scanner is a Umax Astra 2400S w/ Umax sheet feeder. > > Steve Most of the older documents I had had both had the toner fuse to ajoining pages as well as having had the holes drilled in the paper in such a way as to cause the papers to be held together. I know for a fact that a lot of my documentation was drilled on a paper drill after printing from stock that was not originally 3 hole. This causes an affect with the paper edges around the holds being pushed into a cone if you will that can bind to the prior page. only fanning the paper might help, and probably hand feeding each sheet is the only answer. When I was scanning for Al with his Ricoh scanners, I had to do the page at a time trick. I prepared each manual by fanning it, and making sure each page was free, then just fed each page. Sadly not being able to put in a manual and go away. Jim From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 10:06:40 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 11:06:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Advice for scanning docs In-Reply-To: <4CA0A57B.40308@jwsss.com> References: <4CA0A57B.40308@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Sep 2010, Jim Stephens wrote: > On 9/26/2010 6:38 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> All, >> >> I'm trying to scan some documentation on "IBM PC" sized 3-hole paper. For >> some reason the scanner is prone to pulling multiple sheets through when >> doing the reverse sides. Doesn't seem to have this issue when doing the >> facing side. I haven't seen this with US letter size paper, either. >> >> Wondering if anyone has any tips for avoiding this? >> >> The scanner is a Umax Astra 2400S w/ Umax sheet feeder. >> >> Steve > Most of the older documents I had had both had the toner fuse to ajoining > pages as well as having had the holes drilled in the paper in such a way as > to cause the papers to be held together. > > I know for a fact that a lot of my documentation was drilled on a paper drill > after printing from stock that was not originally 3 hole. This causes an > affect with the paper edges around the holds being pushed into a cone if you > will that can bind to the prior page. > > only fanning the paper might help, and probably hand feeding each sheet is > the only answer. > > When I was scanning for Al with his Ricoh scanners, I had to do the page at a > time trick. I prepared each manual by fanning it, and making sure each page > was free, then just fed each page. Sadly not being able to put in a manual > and go away. .. I had a feeling that was the only reliable answer. It's slightly less painful than repeatedly laying the pages into a flatbed scanner, though. Thanks, all! Steve -- From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Mon Sep 27 21:20:23 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 21:20:23 -0500 Subject: Screwing around (Was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <20100927110950.I70654@shell.lmi.net> References: <201009262106.o8QL6k7S029146@floodgap.com> <20100926141448.O35902@shell.lmi.net> <4CA01191.70001@tx.rr.com> <20100927110950.I70654@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CA150E7.9040708@tx.rr.com> On 9/27/2010 1:14 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 26 Sep 2010, Charlie Carothers wrote: >> I suppose there are some advantages to having been born in 1938. :-) I >> still think the Erector set I got for Christmas when I was about 10 was >> about the best present I ever got from my parents. After they passed >> away in 99, when I was cleaning out one of their storage buildings I >> rescued it, and I still have what was left of it out in my garage. The >> last thing I built with it (a windmill) is out there too. With the >> little electric motor on the base driving it I'm sure those unprotected > > Lots of opportunity for minor finger damage in that open gearbox! That is quite true, though I can't recall ever hurting myself with those either. I have the feeling somehow that just tinkering with such things at an early age helped equip me to behave safely when later in life I worked around some much larger, much higher powered, and therefore much more dangerous open gear and drive belt situations. > That was the blue mains powered motor with the attached red frame holding > a bunch of gears on shafts that could be slid back and forth to enagage? That sounds about right. It is definitely mains powered, and I'm pretty sure the motor is sort of pale blue or blue/gray. I think some of the color on the little frame that holds the gears may have faded quite a bit over the years and/or the paint peeled off. The gears do slide back and forth on shafts, and ISTR there are set screws to clamp them where you currently want them. I think there may be collars with set screws on the outside of the frame so you can move the shafts to different hole positions as well. Later, Charlie C. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Mon Sep 27 22:07:45 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 22:07:45 -0500 Subject: Advice for scanning docs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA15C01.8020801@tx.rr.com> On 9/27/2010 2:18 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On Sun, 26 Sep 2010, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> >>> All, >>> >>> I'm trying to scan some documentation on "IBM PC" sized 3-hole paper. For >>> some reason the scanner is prone to pulling multiple sheets through when >>> doing the reverse sides. Doesn't seem to have this issue when doing the >>> facing side. I haven't seen this with US letter size paper, either. >>> >>> Wondering if anyone has any tips for avoiding this? >>> >>> The scanner is a Umax Astra 2400S w/ Umax sheet feeder. >> >> The first thing that comes to mind is static cling. Check the room >> humidity, if possible, and/or get some antistatic spray. > > My thought is more mechanical. Is there a noticable burr round the holes > in the pages (some manuals are prone to this) which is more likely to > catch with the pages one way up or one way round? > > Have you tried scanning the back sidees with the pages rotated by $\pi$ > (and then correct in software later). It may be they slip more easily > that way. > > -tony > You might try just pounding the "cones" flat and then vigorously fanning the pages from the holey edge. Later, Charlie C. From tim at tim-mann.org Mon Sep 27 23:07:39 2010 From: tim at tim-mann.org (Tim Mann) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 21:07:39 -0700 Subject: Floppy Drive Advice Message-ID: > > I think the problem is that many modern motherboards don't have the pins > of the second drive select and MotorOn signal wired up. Whether the > signals exist on accessible pins of an I/O chip I don't know (if they do, > it may be possible to add jumper wires, but some people are afraid of > soldering to motherboards). > Quite likely they don't. The first time I ran into a motherboard like this, I was fortunate enough that the manufacturer provided a schematic online. I looked at it and at the data sheet for the SuperIO chip that the motherboard uses, and I found out that that SuperIO chip does not have enough pins to run two floppy drives and also drive all the fans and other stuff on that motherboard. IIRC, the SuperIO is configurable and does have the option of bringing the signals for the second floppy drive out to pins, but if you did that, some other functions that the motherboard needs more could not be brought out to pins. --Tim From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 01:51:19 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 02:51:19 -0400 Subject: Keyboards (was Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse) In-Reply-To: <20100927011356.GA10138@brevard.conman.org> References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net> <4C9FE94F.3060600@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100927011356.GA10138@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <4CA19067.2030309@gmail.com> Sean Conner wrote: > IBM Model M. I have a stash of them and they're on all my computers > (including the Mac). I even took one to the office to use; the one they got > me was close (it uses a similar mechanism as the IBM Modem M) but was too > mushy (it was the "quiet" model) for my liking. I buy a LOT of the new ones from pckeyboard.com Peace... Sridhar From gyorpb at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 02:18:50 2010 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 09:18:50 +0200 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net> <4CA0B3A7.606@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Sep 27, 2010, at 21:20, Liam Proven wrote: > The preceding model, the Mighty Mouse, actually has 2 microswitches > beneath the shell. Although there is no visible division on the > surface of the mouse, as well as scrolling both vertically and > horizontally with the tiny trackball, you can also left-click, > right-click and squeeze it & it detects all separately. > > I don't like it - I prefer more obvious, tactile buttons; it used to > amuse me to use a MICROS~1 mouse on my Mac - but the Mighty Mouse > /did/ support 3 or 4 button actions. The Magic Mouse, while much > simpler, doesn't - but its multitouch surface does allow gestures to > perform most of these actions. The Magic Mouse works exactly the same as the Mighty Mouse when it comes to clicking: there's a single switch for detecting the clicking motion, then there's a capacitive surface that detects where your fingers are on the mouse surface and interprets the click as a left or right click, accordingly. .tsooJ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 07:54:46 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 07:54:46 -0500 Subject: Screwing around (Was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA1E596.9060806@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> I suppose I like to think that nobody who isn't trained in the equipment would >> be allowed to mess with it - but if they've got a cigarette dangling from >> their mouth at the time then they probably deserve everything they get :-) > > You might want to rephrase the first part of that. I have never been > trained in computer repair. Or in soldering, Or in using machine tools. You know what I mean! ;-) "Trained" as in understanding the equipment - self-training by reading, dismantling etc. is perfectly acceptable. I never think of training as always meaning having someone looking over your shoulder and telling you what to do. The propane grill's an interesting case (although I'm sure it relates to air compressors) - even then I wouldn't expect someone to be messing with valves unless they knew which way they were supposed to be turning (or hooking up lines), but I suppose it's hard to guarantee that it won't happen at some kind of social event... cheers J. From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Sep 28 08:30:15 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 09:30:15 -0400 Subject: Screwing around (Was: Multimeter recomendations References: <4CA1E596.9060806@gmail.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 8:54 AM Subject: Re: Screwing around (Was: Multimeter recomendations > Tony Duell wrote: >>> I suppose I like to think that nobody who isn't trained in the equipment >>> would be allowed to mess with it - but if they've got a cigarette >>> dangling from their mouth at the time then they probably deserve >>> everything they get :-) >> >> You might want to rephrase the first part of that. I have never been >> trained in computer repair. Or in soldering, Or in using machine tools. > > You know what I mean! ;-) "Trained" as in understanding the equipment - > self-training by reading, dismantling etc. is perfectly acceptable. I > never think of training as always meaning having someone looking over your > shoulder and telling you what to do. > > The propane grill's an interesting case (although I'm sure it relates to > air compressors) - even then I wouldn't expect someone to be messing with > valves unless they knew which way they were supposed to be turning (or > hooking up lines), but I suppose it's hard to guarantee that it won't > happen at some kind of social event... > > cheers > > J. > There are different levels of training. Lets take the propane grill for example, anyone can pretty much turn on the gas and hit the igniter and then cool a steak. Some people who tinker can adjust the air fuel mixture by moving objects or making different sized holes to make the grill a little hotter or cooler running even by trial and error. And then there are those who know the theory behind combustion and can calculate the perfect orifice valve without blindly changing things that could lead to explosions (because of air/fuel mixtures) and can even convert the grill from propane to natural gas. So you have operating knowledge (user), maintenance and proper setup knowledge (technician), and in depth design of combustion material and flow metering (engineer), and even possibly advanced theorists who know all about combustion period (scientist) if we needed to cook using alternatives to a common grill (also needing the engineer to then design it, the tech to set it up and adjust it for proper burning, and a user to cook the steaks after everyone else fought over who was more important). Screwing around is how many things were discovered over the centuries, but doing it blindly is also how many people end up dead. From shumaker at att.net Tue Sep 28 08:52:57 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 06:52:57 -0700 Subject: Keyboards (was Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse) In-Reply-To: <4CA19067.2030309@gmail.com> References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net> <4C9FE94F.3060600@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100927011356.GA10138@brevard.conman.org> <4CA19067.2030309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CA1F339.2060203@att.net> are these really the same thing? Have you tried the "rubber dome" model? Steve On 9/27/2010 11:51 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Sean Conner wrote: >> IBM Model M. I have a stash of them and they're on all my computers >> (including the Mac). I even took one to the office to use; the one >> they got >> me was close (it uses a similar mechanism as the IBM Modem M) but was >> too >> mushy (it was the "quiet" model) for my liking. > > I buy a LOT of the new ones from pckeyboard.com > > Peace... Sridhar > From lproven at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 09:55:38 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 15:55:38 +0100 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net> <4CA0B3A7.606@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 28 September 2010 08:18, Joost van de Griek wrote: > On Sep 27, 2010, at 21:20, Liam Proven wrote: > >> The preceding model, the Mighty Mouse, actually has 2 microswitches >> beneath the shell. Although there is no visible division on the >> surface of the mouse, as well as scrolling both vertically and >> horizontally with the tiny trackball, you can also left-click, >> right-click and squeeze it & it detects all separately. >> >> I don't like it - I prefer more obvious, tactile buttons; it used to >> amuse me to use a MICROS~1 mouse on my Mac - but the Mighty Mouse >> /did/ support 3 or 4 button actions. The Magic Mouse, while much >> simpler, doesn't - but its multitouch surface does allow gestures to >> perform most of these actions. > > The Magic Mouse works exactly the same as the Mighty Mouse when it comes to > clicking: there's a single switch for detecting the clicking motion, then > there's a capacitive surface that detects where your fingers are on the > mouse surface and interprets the click as a left or right click, > accordingly. Weird. I've Googled this and in essence, you're right. I'm not saying it's weird you're right! I'm saying it seems a weird way to do it, to me. 2 microswitches would have been easier than a single one and a sensor to tell where your finger is. This might explain why I never liked using the Mighty Mouse much. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 28 10:45:22 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 08:45:22 -0700 Subject: seeking enter keycap for IBM Model 11C electric typewriter In-Reply-To: <20100927225153.Y97740@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4CA11DB6.11630.308BD94@cclist.sydex.com>, <20100927225153.Y97740@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CA1AB22.16240.B0B45@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Sep 2010 at 22:52, Fred Cisin wrote: > So, > the solution would be to scrap a 1620 to get one? The Model B was one of the most common IBM typewriters prior to the Selectric line. When the division GM's secretary turned in her Model B Executive (prop-spacing with the split spacebar) for a Selectric, I grabbed it and turned out better-looking correspondece than she did. There must have been millions of the Model B made (some with 1620s attached), so it shouldn't be hard to turn up a key in some old typewriter shop's parts crib. --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 10:59:20 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 10:59:20 -0500 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net> <4CA0B3A7.606@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CA210D8.5080307@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: > On 28 September 2010 08:18, Joost van de Griek wrote: >> The Magic Mouse works exactly the same as the Mighty Mouse when it comes to >> clicking: there's a single switch for detecting the clicking motion, then >> there's a capacitive surface that detects where your fingers are on the >> mouse surface and interprets the click as a left or right click, >> accordingly. > > Weird. I've Googled this and in essence, you're right. > > I'm not saying it's weird you're right! I'm saying it seems a weird > way to do it, to me. 2 microswitches would have been easier than a > single one and a sensor to tell where your finger is. Art over functionality, by the sounds of it. I'm surprised they can make it work in all weather conditions and for all skin types (or in any kind of trade business, where it's not unknown for employees to quickly pull up stuff while still wearing gloves) (I'm not sure I like the whole 'gesture' concept either - if you're starting to introduce that level of complexity, maybe it's simply the wrong tool for the job, and some other - possibly as-yet-undeveloped - input device would be better) From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 28 10:58:08 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 11:58:08 -0400 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net> <4CA0B3A7.606@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CA21090.7040908@neurotica.com> On 9/28/10 10:55 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > 2 microswitches would have been easier than a > single one and a sensor to tell where your finger is. Not really. The replacement of one expensive, failure-prone mechanical part with a cheap-and-getting-cheaper silicon part is almost always a good thing. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Sep 28 11:29:33 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 12:29:33 -0400 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net> <4CA0B3A7.606@brouhaha.com> <4CA210D8.5080307@gmail.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 11:59 AM Subject: Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse > Liam Proven wrote: >> On 28 September 2010 08:18, Joost van de Griek wrote: >>> The Magic Mouse works exactly the same as the Mighty Mouse when it comes >>> to >>> clicking: there's a single switch for detecting the clicking motion, >>> then >>> there's a capacitive surface that detects where your fingers are on the >>> mouse surface and interprets the click as a left or right click, >>> accordingly. >> >> Weird. I've Googled this and in essence, you're right. >> >> I'm not saying it's weird you're right! I'm saying it seems a weird >> way to do it, to me. 2 microswitches would have been easier than a >> single one and a sensor to tell where your finger is. > > Art over functionality, by the sounds of it. I'm surprised they can make > it work in all weather conditions and for all skin types (or in any kind > of trade business, where it's not unknown for employees to quickly pull up > stuff while still wearing gloves) > > (I'm not sure I like the whole 'gesture' concept either - if you're > starting to introduce that level of complexity, maybe it's simply the > wrong tool for the job, and some other - possibly as-yet-undeveloped - > input device would be better) > > The gesture concept makes sense for small portable devices with limited CPU power. For desktop users I don't see why they cannot design something that tracks what you are focusing on with your eyes and use that for a cursor while having a few buttons on your keyboard you can mouseclick with (hands never leave the keyboard, no mouse needed). From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 28 11:35:55 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 09:35:55 -0700 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4CA21090.7040908@neurotica.com> References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net>, , <4CA21090.7040908@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CA1B6FB.30294.396EB2@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Sep 2010 at 11:58, Dave McGuire wrote: > Not really. The replacement of one expensive, failure-prone > mechanical part with a cheap-and-getting-cheaper silicon part is > almost always a good thing. I won't quibble wth the "cheaper" part, but exactly how "failure- prone" are microswitches? I can remember only one failing and that was on an automatic coffeemaker (handled lots of current in a wet environment; arcing eventually destroyed the contacts). --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 28 11:39:54 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 09:39:54 -0700 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net>, Message-ID: <4CA1B7EA.26714.3D15E0@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Sep 2010 at 12:29, Teo Zenios wrote: > The gesture concept makes sense for small portable devices with > limited CPU power. For desktop users I don't see why they cannot > design something that tracks what you are focusing on with your eyes > and use that for a cursor while having a few buttons on your keyboard > you can mouseclick with (hands never leave the keyboard, no mouse > needed). That one seems to be in the "Real Soon Now" category. Google "Eyepoint". Ought to be a real blast for those with congenital nystagmus... --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 28 11:49:40 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 12:49:40 -0400 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4CA1B6FB.30294.396EB2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net>, , <4CA21090.7040908@neurotica.com> <4CA1B6FB.30294.396EB2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CA21CA4.1080607@neurotica.com> On 9/28/10 12:35 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Not really. The replacement of one expensive, failure-prone >> mechanical part with a cheap-and-getting-cheaper silicon part is >> almost always a good thing. > > I won't quibble wth the "cheaper" part, but exactly how "failure- > prone" are microswitches? I can remember only one failing and that > was on an automatic coffeemaker (handled lots of current in a wet > environment; arcing eventually destroyed the contacts). I've replaced two in mice, which admittedly isn't many, but do you really think they're as reliable in the long term as a multiple-zone capacitance touch sensor? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Sep 28 11:58:57 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 09:58:57 -0700 Subject: Mechanical bits (was RE: Evolution of the Apple Mouse) In-Reply-To: <4CA21CA4.1080607@neurotica.com> References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net>, , <4CA21090.7040908@neurotica.com> <4CA1B6FB.30294.396EB2@cclist.sydex.com> <4CA21CA4.1080607@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 9:50 AM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse > > On 9/28/10 12:35 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Not really. The replacement of one expensive, failure-prone > >> mechanical part with a cheap-and-getting-cheaper silicon part is > >> almost always a good thing. > > > > I won't quibble wth the "cheaper" part, but exactly how "failure- > > prone" are microswitches? I can remember only one failing and that > > was on an automatic coffeemaker (handled lots of current in a wet > > environment; arcing eventually destroyed the contacts). > > I've replaced two in mice, which admittedly isn't many, but do you > really think they're as reliable in the long term as a multiple-zone > capacitance touch sensor? > Our clothes dryer quit working one day, so I cracked it open to see what I could see. What quickly became obvious was that a safety circuit, activated by a microswitch, wasn't working right, and careful test jumpering around the switch showed that it was in fact the switch to blame. I removed it so I could take it to a parts store and get a replacement, and its cover came off! It was clear it was designed to do that, and after cleaning up the contacts I reassembled everything and put it back in place. Not a problem with that dryer for about eight years now.... It's nice when things are engineered to be fixable. -- Ian From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 28 12:02:52 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 10:02:52 -0700 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4CA21CA4.1080607@neurotica.com> References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net>, <4CA1B6FB.30294.396EB2@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA21CA4.1080607@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CA1BD4C.14781.521A01@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Sep 2010 at 12:49, Dave McGuire wrote: > I've replaced two in mice, which admittedly isn't many, but do you > really think they're as reliable in the long term as a multiple-zone > capacitance touch sensor? I've never replaced one in a mouse, so I'm not qualifed to say, but how does a touch sensor stand up to ESD in comparison to a microswitch? --Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Sep 28 12:06:40 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 13:06:40 -0400 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net>, , <4CA21090.7040908@neurotica.com><4CA1B6FB.30294.396EB2@cclist.sydex.com> <4CA21CA4.1080607@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <64C727F243F44531ABDA636654E96D89@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 12:49 PM Subject: Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse > > I've replaced two in mice, which admittedly isn't many, but do you > really think they're as reliable in the long term as a multiple-zone > capacitance touch sensor? > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL With new computers designed to be thrown away after 3 years what gives you the idea that the mice on those machines are supposed to last longer then that? From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 28 12:07:23 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 13:07:23 -0400 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4CA1BD4C.14781.521A01@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net>, <4CA1B6FB.30294.396EB2@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA21CA4.1080607@neurotica.com> <4CA1BD4C.14781.521A01@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CA220CB.1050502@neurotica.com> On 9/28/10 1:02 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I've replaced two in mice, which admittedly isn't many, but do you >> really think they're as reliable in the long term as a multiple-zone >> capacitance touch sensor? > > I've never replaced one in a mouse, so I'm not qualifed to say, but > how does a touch sensor stand up to ESD in comparison to a > microswitch? You make a good point, but I'm still not convinced. We've seen some pretty amazing ESD protection capabilities in modern interface chips these days. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 28 12:13:57 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 10:13:57 -0700 Subject: seeking enter keycap for IBM Model 11C electric typewriter In-Reply-To: <4CA11DB6.11630.308BD94@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CA11DB6.11630.308BD94@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CA1BFE5.23028.5C40B3@cclist.sydex.com> Here's a handy list of typewriter repair folks around the world: http://staff.xu.edu/polt/typewriters/tw-repair.html One just might have what you need. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 28 12:18:44 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 13:18:44 -0400 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <64C727F243F44531ABDA636654E96D89@dell8300> References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net>, , <4CA21090.7040908@neurotica.com><4CA1B6FB.30294.396EB2@cclist.sydex.com> <4CA21CA4.1080607@neurotica.com> <64C727F243F44531ABDA636654E96D89@dell8300> Message-ID: <4CA22374.4040700@neurotica.com> On 9/28/10 1:06 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: >> I've replaced two in mice, which admittedly isn't many, but do you >> really think they're as reliable in the long term as a multiple-zone >> capacitance touch sensor? > > With new computers designed to be thrown away after 3 years what gives > you the idea that the mice on those machines are supposed to last longer > then that? I thought we were talking about Mac mice. Macs generally don't operate on that three-years-to-the-trash cycle. Aside from that, even if they did, why would a person throw away a functioning mouse? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue Sep 28 13:16:20 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 11:16:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4CA210D8.5080307@gmail.com> References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net> <4CA0B3A7.606@brouhaha.com> <4CA210D8.5080307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <788521.22321.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I'm quite pleased with gestures. Once you get used to them you can really zip around. Two finger swipe to scroll in any direction. Two finger tap - right mouse click, three fingers can go back and forward one page in your web browser, etc. In practice you typically just use the two finger gestures. ________________________________ From: Jules Richardson To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Tue, September 28, 2010 10:59:20 AM Subject: Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse Liam Proven wrote: > On 28 September 2010 08:18, Joost van de Griek wrote: >> The Magic Mouse works exactly the same as the Mighty Mouse when it comes to >> clicking: there's a single switch for detecting the clicking motion, then >> there's a capacitive surface that detects where your fingers are on the >> mouse surface and interprets the click as a left or right click, >> accordingly. > > Weird. I've Googled this and in essence, you're right. > > I'm not saying it's weird you're right! I'm saying it seems a weird > way to do it, to me. 2 microswitches would have been easier than a > single one and a sensor to tell where your finger is. Art over functionality, by the sounds of it. I'm surprised they can make it work in all weather conditions and for all skin types (or in any kind of trade business, where it's not unknown for employees to quickly pull up stuff while still wearing gloves) (I'm not sure I like the whole 'gesture' concept either - if you're starting to introduce that level of complexity, maybe it's simply the wrong tool for the job, and some other - possibly as-yet-undeveloped - input device would be better) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 28 13:17:45 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 12:17:45 -0600 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4CA22374.4040700@neurotica.com> References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net>, , <4CA21090.7040908@neurotica.com><4CA1B6FB.30294.396EB2@cclist.sydex.com> <4CA21CA4.1080607@neurotica.com> <64C727F243F44531ABDA636654E96D89@dell8300> <4CA22374.4040700@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CA23149.7020302@jetnet.ab.ca> On 28/09/2010 11:18 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 9/28/10 1:06 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: >>> I've replaced two in mice, which admittedly isn't many, but do you >>> really think they're as reliable in the long term as a multiple-zone >>> capacitance touch sensor? >> >> With new computers designed to be thrown away after 3 years what gives >> you the idea that the mice on those machines are supposed to last longer >> then that? > > I thought we were talking about Mac mice. Macs generally don't operate > on that three-years-to-the-trash cycle. > > Aside from that, even if they did, why would a person throw away a > functioning mouse? > > -Dave > The little telflon sp? feet have worn off? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 28 13:22:16 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 12:22:16 -0600 Subject: Keyboards (was Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse) In-Reply-To: <4CA19067.2030309@gmail.com> References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net> <4C9FE94F.3060600@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100927011356.GA10138@brevard.conman.org> <4CA19067.2030309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CA23258.9080108@jetnet.ab.ca> On 28/09/2010 12:51 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Sean Conner wrote: >> IBM Model M. I have a stash of them and they're on all my computers >> (including the Mac). I even took one to the office to use; the one >> they got >> me was close (it uses a similar mechanism as the IBM Modem M) but was too >> mushy (it was the "quiet" model) for my liking. > > I buy a LOT of the new ones from pckeyboard.com I tried that until I found they just take credit card or paypal - I have neither. http://www.clickykeyboards.com/ will take real money! :) > Peace... Sridhar > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 28 13:37:38 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 11:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: seeking enter keycap for IBM Model 11C electric typewriter In-Reply-To: <4CA1AB22.16240.B0B45@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CA11DB6.11630.308BD94@cclist.sydex.com>, <20100927225153.Y97740@shell.lmi.net> <4CA1AB22.16240.B0B45@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100928113018.L36370@shell.lmi.net> > > So, > > the solution would be to scrap a 1620 to get one? JUST KIDDING!!!!!! (scrap something rare to fix something common) On Tue, 28 Sep 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The Model B was one of the most common IBM typewriters prior to the > Selectric line. When the division GM's secretary turned in her > Model B Executive (prop-spacing with the split spacebar) for a > Selectric, I grabbed it and turned out better-looking correspondece > than she did. > There must have been millions of the Model B made (some with 1620s > attached), so it shouldn't be hard to turn up a key in some old > typewriter shop's parts crib. I remember them. Although I loved the concept of the Selectric, (In 1970, I had my own APL type ball), the model B could withstand longer periods of high speed typing. My book publisher's wife averaged 150WPM over an 8 hour day, and afterwards had no recollection of what she had been typing. I introduced them to Word Processing with TRS80 ("Electric Pencil", and then "Scripsit") Sorry about that. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 28 14:33:07 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 15:33:07 -0400 Subject: IBM 3179 terminal(s) wanted In-Reply-To: <31B50B8EC8504D469CD820BB3F1651F1@osa.local> References: <4CA0FFB9.3090301@neurotica.com> <31B50B8EC8504D469CD820BB3F1651F1@osa.local> Message-ID: <4CA242F3.6030806@neurotica.com> On 9/27/10 4:51 PM, Jay West wrote: > Dave wrote.... >> ... OR a token ring option board and cable set for a 3174-51R. > I got my token ring option board from lordsnet.com. I told the guy what > all I was doing, and he gave me "hobbyist pricing". I think he also > included a set of version C microcode disks, as that version is required > for reverse3270. I think I also picked up a second floppy drive and > maybe some memory from him - so I could run version C. Oh! Thanks for the contact. I'll give them a shot the next time I have a few bucks. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 28 14:54:39 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 12:54:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Screwing around (Was: Multimeter recomendations In-Reply-To: <4CA1E596.9060806@gmail.com> References: <4CA1E596.9060806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100928125343.A36370@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 28 Sep 2010, Jules Richardson wrote: > The propane grill's an interesting case (although I'm sure it relates to air > compressors) - even then I wouldn't expect someone to be messing with valves > unless they knew which way they were supposed to be turning (or hooking up > lines), You have an optimistic view of human nature! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 28 14:20:50 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 20:20:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Advice for scanning docs In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Sep 27, 10 11:06:40 am Message-ID: > > When I was scanning for Al with his Ricoh scanners, I had to do the page at a > > time trick. I prepared each manual by fanning it, and making sure each page > > was free, then just fed each page. Sadly not being able to put in a manual > > and go away. > > .. I had a feeling that was the only reliable answer. It's > slightly less painful than repeatedly laying the pages into a flatbed > scanner, though. It probably doesn';t save any time or work, but what happens if you turn every other page through $\pi$ (keeping it the same face up) so that the holes/'cones' can't interlock throughout the stack. And then convince the software to roate every otehr scan back again. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 28 14:27:21 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 20:27:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 9816, and more, available in Eugene, Oregon In-Reply-To: <902736.55896.qm@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> from "steven stengel" at Sep 27, 10 03:15:23 pm Message-ID: > > > Dallas Hemphill has: > > 2 HP-9816 systems > 2 HP-9121 disk drives > 2 keyboards > 2 6-pen plotters > 1 2225A printer > cables, operating system, software, and lots of manuals, from about 1983. Somebody should grab these... The 9816 is a small 68000 machine built into the same case as the monitor. It's about the same age as the Mac 128 I think, but IMHO a much nicer machine. There's no internal mass stroage device, but you have an HPIB port (which will connect to HP disk drives like those 9121s (although a double-sided drive is very useful...) and a serial port. You also have 2 DIO expansion slots. There's normally either 128K or 256K of RAM on the CPU board. It's not hard to upgrade it to 1M though (involves replacing 32 RAM chips, adding a TTL chip and a rrsistor and cutting some links). I can give you details if you want to do it. One currious construcitonal feature is that you can remvoe all the PCBs apart from the PSU by undoing 2 quarter-turn fasteners and just one screw. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 28 15:15:19 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 21:15:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4CA1B6FB.30294.396EB2@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 28, 10 09:35:55 am Message-ID: > > Not really. The replacement of one expensive, failure-prone > > mechanical part with a cheap-and-getting-cheaper silicon part is > > almost always a good thing. > > I won't quibble wth the "cheaper" part, but exactly how "failure- > prone" are microswitches? I can remember only one failing and that > was on an automatic coffeemaker (handled lots of current in a wet > environment; arcing eventually destroyed the contacts). Didn';t somebody say here last week that they had ordered some replacement switches for their mouse? So presumbly they do fail. I can think of 2 microswitches that I've had problems with in computer devices farily recently. The devices themsevles were over 25 years old, so I can't moan. One was a track 0 switch in a Tandon TM100 drive in an HP9836. It intermeittanylu failed to make contact properly. Since it was debounced by an SR flip-flop this caused some interesting faults. Since the drive will step towards the spidle when the track0 siganl is active, but won't step out again once the stepper ahs got to the right phase, this caused the itneresting effec that the drive would step in ith no problems but would only step out by 3 or 4 cylinders. This switch was a low-force one, but amazinygly I foudn the exact replacement (size and operating force) in a current catalogue. So I replaced it. The other was the paper-out swtich in an HP 2631 printer. I think I mentiond this on the lis a few months back. The contacts were shorted, even though it still clicked properly. This led me a merry dance trying to work out why the printer appeared totally dead. I guess switches are less reliable than ICs, but equally they are easier to test and repair/replace. So I am not at all convinced that replacing the former wit hthe latter is a good thing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 28 15:06:57 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 21:06:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4CA21090.7040908@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 28, 10 11:58:08 am Message-ID: > > On 9/28/10 10:55 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > > 2 microswitches would have been easier than a > > single one and a sensor to tell where your finger is. > > Not really. The replacement of one expensive, failure-prone > mechanical part with a cheap-and-getting-cheaper silicon part is almost > always a good thing. I am not convinced, given that the mechancial swtich is easy to test and easy to rpelace if it's failed. Unlike a custom silicon device. OK, I am strange, but I nearly always favour the simple solution. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 28 15:27:23 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 13:27:23 -0700 Subject: HP 9816, and more, available in Eugene, Oregon In-Reply-To: References: <902736.55896.qm@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> from "steven stengel" at Sep 27, 10 03:15:23 pm, Message-ID: <4CA1ED3B.26227.10D5A39@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Sep 2010 at 20:27, Tony Duell wrote: > Somebody should grab these... The 9816 is a small 68000 machine built > into the same case as the monitor. It's about the same age as the Mac > 128 I think, but IMHO a much nicer machine. There's no internal mass > stroage device, but you have an HPIB port (which will connect to HP > disk drives like those 9121s (although a double-sided drive is very > useful...) and a serial port. You also have 2 DIO expansion slots. If nobody grabs these, I'll drop Dallas another line, since he's here in town and I'll stash them away against the day that someone expresses an interest. I'm not all that interested in vintage HP computer gear (at least not 68K bases stuff), but I don't mind storing it for someone. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 28 15:31:13 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 13:31:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4CA22374.4040700@neurotica.com> References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net>, , <4CA21090.7040908@neurotica.com><4CA1B6FB.30294.396EB2@cclist.sydex.com> <4CA21CA4.1080607@neurotica.com> <64C727F243F44531ABDA636654E96D89@dell8300> <4CA22374.4040700@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20100928132931.T36370@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 28 Sep 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > I thought we were talking about Mac mice. Macs generally don't > operate on that three-years-to-the-trash cycle. four years? > Aside from that, even if they did, why would a person throw away a > functioning mouse? "because the new computer comes with a brand-new one!" From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 15:51:59 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 13:51:59 -0700 Subject: HP 9816, and more, available in Eugene, Oregon In-Reply-To: <4CA1ED3B.26227.10D5A39@cclist.sydex.com> References: <902736.55896.qm@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4CA1ED3B.26227.10D5A39@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: I've been discussing the machines with Dallas. I'm very interested in these machines! On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 1:27 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 28 Sep 2010 at 20:27, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Somebody should grab these... The 9816 is a small 68000 machine built >> into the same case as the monitor. It's about the same age as the Mac >> 128 I think, but IMHO a much nicer machine. There's no internal mass >> stroage device, but you have an HPIB port (which will connect to HP >> disk drives like those 9121s (although a double-sided drive is very >> useful...) and a serial port. You also have 2 DIO expansion slots. > > If nobody grabs these, I'll drop Dallas another line, since he's here > in town and I'll stash them away against the day that someone > expresses an interest. > > I'm not all that interested in vintage HP computer gear (at least not > 68K bases stuff), but I don't mind storing it for someone. > > --Chuck > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 28 16:05:15 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 14:05:15 -0700 Subject: HP 9816, and more, available in Eugene, Oregon In-Reply-To: References: <902736.55896.qm@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> from "steven stengel" at Sep 27, 10 03:15:23 pm, Message-ID: <4CA1F61B.28175.130042F@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Sep 2010 at 20:27, Tony Duell wrote: > There's no internal mass stroage device, but you have an HPIB port For some reason, I thought these came with 2 3.5" internal floppies. --Chuck From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 06:32:59 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 07:32:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Advice for scanning docs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Sep 2010, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On Sun, 26 Sep 2010, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> >>> All, >>> >>> I'm trying to scan some documentation on "IBM PC" sized 3-hole paper. For >>> some reason the scanner is prone to pulling multiple sheets through when >>> doing the reverse sides. Doesn't seem to have this issue when doing the >>> facing side. I haven't seen this with US letter size paper, either. >>> >>> Wondering if anyone has any tips for avoiding this? >>> >>> The scanner is a Umax Astra 2400S w/ Umax sheet feeder. >> >> The first thing that comes to mind is static cling. Check the room >> humidity, if possible, and/or get some antistatic spray. > > My thought is more mechanical. Is there a noticable burr round the holes > in the pages (some manuals are prone to this) which is more likely to > catch with the pages one way up or one way round? > > Have you tried scanning the back sidees with the pages rotated by $\pi$ > (and then correct in software later). It may be they slip more easily > that way. Great input, everyone! Turns out that Al and Tony had it nailed. I rotated the paper 90-degrees and ensured that both front and rear scans pulled from the non-punched side. Now I'm getting perhaps one or two snags out of every 100 pages - easy enough to correct after the fact. I'm quite impressed with 'gscan2pdf' on my x86_64 Linux box. A little quirky to setup, but has all the features you could ask for. Steve -- From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 28 16:34:50 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 17:34:50 -0400 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA25F7A.6040706@neurotica.com> On 9/28/10 4:06 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> 2 microswitches would have been easier than a >>> single one and a sensor to tell where your finger is. >> >> Not really. The replacement of one expensive, failure-prone >> mechanical part with a cheap-and-getting-cheaper silicon part is almost >> always a good thing. > > I am not convinced, given that the mechancial swtich is easy to test and > easy to rpelace if it's failed. You'll get no argument from me there. > Unlike a custom silicon device. OK, I am > strange, but I nearly always favour the simple solution. Sure, but this is a mass-market device that will never be "collectible" in any sense. The choice is between a cheap device that will last maybe a year or two and give limited functionality, or a more expensive device that will last more likely a decade or more (I have several decade-old expensive Apple optical mice) and give enhanced functionality. "I'm not rich enough to buy cheap tools." ;) *poke* -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From innfoclassics at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 16:40:48 2010 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 14:40:48 -0700 Subject: HP 9816, and more, available in Eugene, Oregon In-Reply-To: <902736.55896.qm@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <902736.55896.qm@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 3:15 PM, steven stengel wrote: > > Dallas Hemphill has: > > 2 HP-9816 systems > 2 HP-9121 disk drives > 2 keyboards > 2 6-pen plotters > 1 2225A printer > cables, operating system, software, and lots of manuals, from about 1983. I have sent a message also as I am very familiar with these units and go to Eugene every other week. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 19:33:46 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 21:33:46 -0300 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse References: <4CA25F7A.6040706@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <120f01cb5f6e$8c9ef4e0$6ca961bd@portajara> > "I'm not rich enough to buy cheap tools." ;) *poke* Another nice quote for the month :oD From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 28 19:50:20 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 20:50:20 -0400 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <120f01cb5f6e$8c9ef4e0$6ca961bd@portajara> References: <4CA25F7A.6040706@neurotica.com> <120f01cb5f6e$8c9ef4e0$6ca961bd@portajara> Message-ID: <4CA28D4C.3090801@neurotica.com> On 9/28/10 8:33 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> "I'm not rich enough to buy cheap tools." ;) *poke* > > Another nice quote for the month :oD I'm full of 'em. =) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From keithvz at verizon.net Tue Sep 28 22:13:01 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 23:13:01 -0400 Subject: anyone have access to this article? In-Reply-To: <788521.22321.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net> <4CA0B3A7.606@brouhaha.com> <4CA210D8.5080307@gmail.com> <788521.22321.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4CA2AEBD.3040209@verizon.net> Anyone have access to this article? Cryptographic Hardware and Embedded Systems - CHES 2009 Lecture Notes in Computer Science, 2009, Volume 5747/2009, 363-381, DOI: 10.1007/978-3-642-04138-9_26 The State-of-the-Art in IC Reverse Engineering Randy Torrance and Dick James It's also available via ACM: http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1617758 Thanks Keith From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Sep 28 22:35:14 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 20:35:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone have access to this article? In-Reply-To: <4CA2AEBD.3040209@verizon.net> References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net> <4CA0B3A7.606@brouhaha.com> <4CA210D8.5080307@gmail.com> <788521.22321.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4CA2AEBD.3040209@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Sep 2010, Keith wrote: > Anyone have access to this article? > > Cryptographic Hardware and Embedded Systems - CHES 2009 > Lecture Notes in Computer Science, 2009, Volume 5747/2009, 363-381, DOI: > 10.1007/978-3-642-04138-9_26 > > The State-of-the-Art in IC Reverse Engineering > > Randy Torrance and Dick James > > > It's also available via ACM: > > http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1617758 I'm paid up with my ACM membership, but I can't seem to figure this one out. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From tingox at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 16:34:50 2010 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 23:34:50 +0200 Subject: HP 9816, and more, available in Eugene, Oregon In-Reply-To: <4CA1ED3B.26227.10D5A39@cclist.sydex.com> References: <902736.55896.qm@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4CA1ED3B.26227.10D5A39@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 10:27 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 28 Sep 2010 at 20:27, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Somebody should grab these... The 9816 is a small 68000 machine built > Yes, if only they were available on this side of the pond (Oslo, Norway). Shipping for such large items are not funny from US to Norway. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 17:22:08 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 18:22:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Advice for scanning docs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Sep 2010, Tony Duell wrote: >>> When I was scanning for Al with his Ricoh scanners, I had to do the page at a >>> time trick. I prepared each manual by fanning it, and making sure each page >>> was free, then just fed each page. Sadly not being able to put in a manual >>> and go away. >> >> .. I had a feeling that was the only reliable answer. It's >> slightly less painful than repeatedly laying the pages into a flatbed >> scanner, though. > > It probably doesn';t save any time or work, but what happens if you turn > every other page through $\pi$ (keeping it the same face up) so that the > holes/'cones' can't interlock throughout the stack. And then convince the > software to roate every otehr scan back again. Not a bad thought, but I'm not up for the requisite hacking to add such a feature. I can live with the behavior now. -- From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Wed Sep 29 08:20:05 2010 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 08:20:05 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Slightly-OT: Anyone want a couple of boards from an AT&T MERLIN? Message-ID: While refreshing my memory of the bits and pieces of sundry I picked up with an IBM System/34 several years ago I rediscovered a pair of boards in-box that are marked AT&T MERLIN. They appear completely unused, bubble-wrapped in apparent original packaging. I don't know anything about the system, so if you want me to be able to identify _which_ boards they are, you'll need to give me some hints :) Shipping costs only, from 50441. - JP From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Sep 29 11:00:40 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 12:00:40 -0400 Subject: anyone have access to this article? In-Reply-To: <4CA2AEBD.3040209@verizon.net> References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net> <4CA0B3A7.606@brouhaha.com> <4CA210D8.5080307@gmail.com> <788521.22321.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4CA2AEBD.3040209@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4CA362A8.9010100@verizon.net> On 9/28/2010 11:13 PM, Keith wrote: > Anyone have access to this article? > > Cryptographic Hardware and Embedded Systems - CHES 2009 > Lecture Notes in Computer Science, 2009, Volume 5747/2009, 363-381, DOI: > 10.1007/978-3-642-04138-9_26 > > The State-of-the-Art in IC Reverse Engineering > > Randy Torrance and Dick James > > > It's also available via ACM: > > http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1617758 > > Thanks > > Keith Thanks everyone who responded, I now have the article. Keith From innfoclassics at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 11:46:15 2010 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 09:46:15 -0700 Subject: Slightly-OT: Anyone want a couple of boards from an AT&T MERLIN? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > While refreshing my memory of the bits and pieces of sundry I picked up > with an IBM System/34 several years ago I rediscovered a pair of boards > in-box that are marked AT&T MERLIN. They appear completely unused, > bubble-wrapped in apparent original packaging. The AT&T MERLIN is a telephone system from the mid 1980s. Maybe they are line cards for the Merlin switch? Pax -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 29 12:20:04 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 18:20:04 +0100 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net>, <4CA1B7EA.26714.3D15E0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <008801cb5ffd$ab238ef0$502c5d0a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 5:39 PM Subject: Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse > On 28 Sep 2010 at 12:29, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > > The gesture concept makes sense for small portable devices with > > limited CPU power. For desktop users I don't see why they cannot > > design something that tracks what you are focusing on with your eyes > > and use that for a cursor while having a few buttons on your keyboard > > you can mouseclick with (hands never leave the keyboard, no mouse > > needed). > > That one seems to be in the "Real Soon Now" category. Google > "Eyepoint". Ought to be a real blast for those with congenital > nystagmus... > > --Chuck > > I wear glasses... does that mean it won't work for me?!! Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 29 12:39:49 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 18:39:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 9816, and more, available in Eugene, Oregon In-Reply-To: from "Torfinn Ingolfsen" at Sep 28, 10 11:34:50 pm Message-ID: > Yes, if only they were available on this side of the pond (Oslo, Norway). > Shipping for such large items are not funny from US to Norway. I know the feeling :-). Shipping to England isn't cheap either -- just abpout always the cost of shipping exceeds the price I paid for the item on E-bay. Oh well... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 29 12:44:01 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 18:44:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4CA25F7A.6040706@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 28, 10 05:34:50 pm Message-ID: > > Unlike a custom silicon device. OK, I am > > strange, but I nearly always favour the simple solution. > > Sure, but this is a mass-market device that will never be > "collectible" in any sense. The choice is between a cheap device that True. You have to realise, though, that even for stuff I am going to use, I prefer things I can repair. I know this is odd, but I would rather have something that needs minor repairs every couple of years (like replacing microswitches) but if I do that can carru on running for many years than something that runs fine for 5 years and then fails in a way that I can't fix. > will last maybe a year or two and give limited functionality, or a more > expensive device that will last more likely a decade or more (I have > several decade-old expensive Apple optical mice) and give enhanced And how many of those used capacitive sensors in place of switches? > functionality. > > "I'm not rich enough to buy cheap tools." ;) *poke* Indeed not. But equally, I want to be sure that when I buy the expensive tool I am actually paying the money for what I want. And not, say, gimmicks that do noting for the useability or reliavility of the tool. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 29 12:31:40 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 18:31:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 9816, and more, available in Eugene, Oregon In-Reply-To: <4CA1F61B.28175.130042F@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 28, 10 02:05:15 pm Message-ID: It sounds like there are people interested so these machines will be saved. Good! If someone here gets them, feel free to ask me how to upgrade the RAM (f they don't have 1Mbyte on the CPU board), etc. > > There's no internal mass stroage device, but you have an HPIB port > > For some reason, I thought these came with 2 3.5" internal floppies. I;ve enver seen a 9816 with internal drives. It's the same case as the HP120, HP150 (but without the enlarged top cover for a printer), etc. It's pretty tightly packed in there, there's no room for drives. But one common system configuration for any of these machines consists of a turntable on the desktop, then an HP9121 or 9122 dual 3.5" floppy drive unit, and then on top of that a tilt unit containing the computer (which contains the CRT). That may look like an all-in-one machine with CRT and drives in one unit. I can't believe you made the other somehat common mistake of assuming the thing with a CRT in it is just a monitor and all the logic is in the disk drive. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 29 13:16:24 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 19:16:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sharp IS501 OPIC Message-ID: I havea shaft encoder here in a classic (well, it's over 10 years old :-)) printer. And it seems to have failed in that I am getting no signal at all on either output line (they should be quadrature signals, of couse). They test as floating.. I've taken in apart (of course, what have I got to lose...) and the PCB cotnains a Sharp IS501 OPIC device along with a couple of resistors conencted to it, a supply decoupling capacitor and a limiting resistor for the IR LED. THe latter seems to be working (dropping about 1.5V). but no outputs. The IS501 is a 6 pin stagered-DIP transparent package. The 6 pins are +5V, gorund, the 2 outputs and the 2 (sensitivity?) resistors. So not much I can so other than replace the chip. A qucik web search turns up nothing useful (and no data sheets). Anyone ever come across anything like this before, knows a substitute, etc? -tony From lynchaj at yahoo.com Wed Sep 29 15:13:19 2010 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 16:13:19 -0400 Subject: 68K ISA project Message-ID: <262EB4D8DD6F4F1C9B093A88357898A4@andrewdesktop> Following up on this thread from last July: I found the 1989 mc magazine article on the 68K ISA coprocessor board. I have the article and have gone through it. Instead of an PC/XT ISA coprocessor, I've decided to pursue an S-100 68K CPU board based on the one in the "68000 Microcomputer Systems: Designing and Troubleshooting". Thanks! Andrew Lynch > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew Lynch [mailto:lynchaj at yahoo.com] > Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2010 5:49 PM > To: 'cctalk at classiccmp.org' > Subject: 68K ISA project > > Hi! Just out of curiosity does anyone know of any home brew ISA bus 68K > boards? > > I've seen numerous home brew 68K projects of varying styles but none meant > to plug into the PC/AT ISA bus. I tried Google but nothing obvious turned > up. Ideas/URLs appreciated. > > Thanks and have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch > > PS, something like this but with more detail > > http://john.ccac.rwth-aachen.de:8000/as/pcpar.html From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 29 15:20:25 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 13:20:25 -0700 Subject: HP 9816, and more, available in Eugene, Oregon In-Reply-To: References: <4CA1F61B.28175.130042F@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 28, 10 02:05:15 pm, Message-ID: <4CA33D19.9561.1232B7D@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Sep 2010 at 18:31, Tony Duell wrote: > I can't believe you made the other somehat common mistake of assuming > the thing with a CRT in it is just a monitor and all the logic is in > the disk drive. That wasn't me. I know better--I think I've seen one of these before- -an incredibly crammed-full 68K CPU board. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 29 15:25:45 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 13:25:45 -0700 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4CA25F7A.6040706@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 28, 10 05:34:50 pm, Message-ID: <4CA33E59.31447.1280FBF@cclist.sydex.com> Somewhat on-topic and coincidental, EDN's "Prying Eyes" series looks at a nearly-40-year-old Sharp microwave oven and marvels at the simplicity and robust design. What I gather from the article is that the oven still works fine: http://bit.ly/dA6bSM What's notable is the electromechanical timer. How many microwave ovens made 20 years later with electronic controls are still functional? --Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 16:15:34 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 17:15:34 -0400 Subject: Keyboards (was Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse) In-Reply-To: <4CA1F339.2060203@att.net> References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net> <4C9FE94F.3060600@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100927011356.GA10138@brevard.conman.org> <4CA19067.2030309@gmail.com> <4CA1F339.2060203@att.net> Message-ID: <4CA3AC76.3040306@gmail.com> steve shumaker wrote: > are these really the same thing? Have you tried the "rubber dome" model? The ones from pckeyboard.com are not the soft "rubber dome" ones. They definitely have the older-style mechanical buckling-spring keyswitches. Peace... Sridhar From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Sep 29 16:43:45 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 14:43:45 -0700 Subject: anyone have access to this article? In-Reply-To: References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net> <4CA0B3A7.606@brouhaha.com> <4CA210D8.5080307@gmail.com> <788521.22321.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4CA2AEBD.3040209@verizon.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Griffith > Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 8:35 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: anyone have access to this article? > > On Tue, 28 Sep 2010, Keith wrote: > > > Anyone have access to this article? > > > > Cryptographic Hardware and Embedded Systems - CHES 2009 > > Lecture Notes in Computer Science, 2009, Volume 5747/2009, 363-381, > DOI: > > 10.1007/978-3-642-04138-9_26 > > > > The State-of-the-Art in IC Reverse Engineering > > > > Randy Torrance and Dick James > > > > > > It's also available via ACM: > > > > http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1617758 > > I'm paid up with my ACM membership, but I can't seem to figure this one > out. > You have to have a 'web account' set up - have you done that? -- Ian From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Sep 29 16:46:20 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 14:46:20 -0700 Subject: anyone have access to this article? In-Reply-To: References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net> <4CA0B3A7.606@brouhaha.com> <4CA210D8.5080307@gmail.com> <788521.22321.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4CA2AEBD.3040209@verizon.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Ian King > Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 2:44 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: anyone have access to this article? > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Griffith > > Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 8:35 PM > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Cc: cctech at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: anyone have access to this article? > > > > On Tue, 28 Sep 2010, Keith wrote: > > > > > Anyone have access to this article? > > > > > > Cryptographic Hardware and Embedded Systems - CHES 2009 > > > Lecture Notes in Computer Science, 2009, Volume 5747/2009, 363-381, > > DOI: > > > 10.1007/978-3-642-04138-9_26 > > > > > > The State-of-the-Art in IC Reverse Engineering > > > > > > Randy Torrance and Dick James > > > > > > > > > It's also available via ACM: > > > > > > http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1617758 > > > > I'm paid up with my ACM membership, but I can't seem to figure this > one > > out. > > > You have to have a 'web account' set up - have you done that? -- Ian ...but then I went to look at it and see that it's not an ACM document. Their catalog includes references to lots of papers from other journals, but not the actual papers. It's frustrating, but understandable. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Sep 29 16:57:18 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 14:57:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone have access to this article? In-Reply-To: References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net> <4CA0B3A7.606@brouhaha.com> <4CA210D8.5080307@gmail.com> <788521.22321.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4CA2AEBD.3040209@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Sep 2010, Ian King wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Griffith >> Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 8:35 PM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Cc: cctech at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: anyone have access to this article? >> >> On Tue, 28 Sep 2010, Keith wrote: >> >>> Anyone have access to this article? >>> >>> Cryptographic Hardware and Embedded Systems - CHES 2009 >>> Lecture Notes in Computer Science, 2009, Volume 5747/2009, 363-381, >> DOI: >>> 10.1007/978-3-642-04138-9_26 >>> >>> The State-of-the-Art in IC Reverse Engineering >>> >>> Randy Torrance and Dick James >>> >>> >>> It's also available via ACM: >>> >>> http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1617758 >> >> I'm paid up with my ACM membership, but I can't seem to figure this one >> out. >> > You have to have a 'web account' set up - have you done that? -- Ian I did that. That's how I got my @acm.org email address. All I can figure out is how to save an abstract to my "binder shelf". I can't actually view the article. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Wed Sep 29 17:02:06 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 15:02:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4CA33E59.31447.1280FBF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CA25F7A.6040706@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 28, 10 05:34:50 pm, <4CA33E59.31447.1280FBF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <591364.86951.qm@web83908.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> You know though... every washing machine my family has owned with a mechanical timer/sequencer eventually died and needed replacement. My last dishwasher (with electronic controls, but mechanical sequencing/timing) the sequencer started getting flakey. Somethings mechanical good, somethings not so much. ________________________________ From: Chuck Guzis To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wed, September 29, 2010 3:25:45 PM Subject: Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse Somewhat on-topic and coincidental, EDN's "Prying Eyes" series looks at a nearly-40-year-old Sharp microwave oven and marvels at the simplicity and robust design. What I gather from the article is that the oven still works fine: http://bit.ly/dA6bSM What's notable is the electromechanical timer. How many microwave ovens made 20 years later with electronic controls are still functional? --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 29 17:06:42 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 15:06:42 -0700 Subject: anyone have access to this article? In-Reply-To: <4CA362A8.9010100@verizon.net> References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net> <4CA0B3A7.606@brouhaha.com> <4CA210D8.5080307@gmail.com> <788521.22321.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4CA2AEBD.3040209@verizon.net> <4CA362A8.9010100@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4CA3B872.8000904@bitsavers.org> On 9/29/10 9:00 AM, Keith Monahan wrote: > Thanks everyone who responded, I now have the article. > http://www.springerlink.com/content/w8568j6533634w74/fulltext.pdf now, EVERYONE has it From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 29 17:13:06 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 18:13:06 -0400 Subject: anyone have access to this article? In-Reply-To: <4CA3B872.8000904@bitsavers.org> References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net> <4CA0B3A7.606@brouhaha.com> <4CA210D8.5080307@gmail.com> <788521.22321.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4CA2AEBD.3040209@verizon.net> <4CA362A8.9010100@verizon.net> <4CA3B872.8000904@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4CA3B9F2.7090206@neurotica.com> On 9/29/10 6:06 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> Thanks everyone who responded, I now have the article. > > http://www.springerlink.com/content/w8568j6533634w74/fulltext.pdf > > now, EVERYONE has it 403 -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Sep 29 17:54:01 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 15:54:01 -0700 Subject: anyone have access to this article? In-Reply-To: <4CA3B9F2.7090206@neurotica.com> References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net> <4CA0B3A7.606@brouhaha.com> <4CA210D8.5080307@gmail.com> <788521.22321.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4CA2AEBD.3040209@verizon.net> <4CA362A8.9010100@verizon.net> <4CA3B872.8000904@bitsavers.org> <4CA3B9F2.7090206@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <48ceec09e388196e2b604f0c312841ec@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Sep 29, at 3:13 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 9/29/10 6:06 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >>> Thanks everyone who responded, I now have the article. >> >> http://www.springerlink.com/content/w8568j6533634w74/fulltext.pdf >> >> now, EVERYONE has it > > 403 Just picked it up here, no problem. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 29 19:00:25 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 17:00:25 -0700 Subject: anyone have access to this article? In-Reply-To: <4CA3B9F2.7090206@neurotica.com> References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net>, <4CA3B872.8000904@bitsavers.org>, <4CA3B9F2.7090206@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CA370A9.5731.1EC97E1@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Sep 2010 at 18:13, Dave McGuire wrote: > > now, EVERYONE has it > > 403 Picked it up here, no problem. Very interesting document! Thanks, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 29 19:07:57 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 20:07:57 -0400 Subject: anyone have access to this article? In-Reply-To: <4CA370A9.5731.1EC97E1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net>, <4CA3B872.8000904@bitsavers.org>, <4CA3B9F2.7090206@neurotica.com> <4CA370A9.5731.1EC97E1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CA3D4DD.2030104@neurotica.com> On 9/29/10 8:00 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> now, EVERYONE has it >> >> 403 > > Picked it up here, no problem. Very interesting document! Damn thing's giving me a 403 here with wget. I tried it in a web browser and it redirected me to a "here, give us money and we'll let you read this" page. WTF? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Wed Sep 29 20:24:53 2010 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 20:24:53 -0500 Subject: IP Fragments - Worth doing, testing strategies? Message-ID: <4CA3E6E5.3000409@brutman.com> I have been working on my TCP/IP stack for DOS, adding IP fragmentation support. There are not too many more features that I want to add to make it 'complete' before I open source the code and IP fragment support was a big one. I am having a terrible time testing it though. It seems that IP fragments out in the wild are pretty rare. I tried connecting to a slew of remote FTP sites hoping to find one that was behind a really bad network, and thus would have fragments coming from it. No joy. It seems that there are a lot of tricks out there to prevent fragments from being created, especially when using TCP. The only way I can test the code is to send myself oversized UDP packets. If it works for UDP then it should work for TCP too, but I'd really like to test the TCP path explicitly. Combine the tricks with modern broadband and getting fragments is really difficult. Even on the home network I am having a hard time getting fragments. I put a Linux box between the DOS PC and a Windows machine, and set one of the Ethernet MTUs to 576. Well, that didn't force fragments because the Windows box is too clever. I could start turning everything off in the registry, but I really don't want to get that involved. Off the top of my head I think I am going to have to get another Linux box and dumb that down, if it is possible. Dumbing Linux down to turn off the features and then restoring it to a good state is probably safer/easier than doing it with Windows. Does anybody have a good technique for setting up a simple network that will result in IP fragments of TCP? On a related note, is this even worth it? I don't know of anything that needs to send fragments except for NFS over UDP. There might be other applications that send big packets over UDP but those would be the only class of applications that absolutely require fragment support. With TCP it is nice, but a user should be able to get around any problem by setting the local MTU to 576. Mike From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Sep 29 20:27:20 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 20:27:20 -0500 Subject: Sharp IS501 OPIC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201009300127.o8U1Rjdl010478@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 01:16 PM 9/29/2010, Tony Duell wrote: >I havea shaft encoder here in a classic (well, it's over 10 years old >:-)) printer. What make and model of printer? - John From rick at rickmurphy.net Wed Sep 29 20:37:21 2010 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 21:37:21 -0400 Subject: IP Fragments - Worth doing, testing strategies? In-Reply-To: <4CA3E6E5.3000409@brutman.com> References: <4CA3E6E5.3000409@brutman.com> Message-ID: <201009300137.o8U1bL6g001342@rickmurphy.net> At 09:24 PM 9/29/2010, Michael B. Brutman wrote: >Does anybody have a good technique for setting up a simple network >that will result in IP fragments of TCP? Set up a network going through a SLIP link with a small MTU. That's the easiest way to test such things that I've ever found. We used to use this kind of configuration to verify VPN implementations across limited MTUs. -Rick From schoedel at kw.igs.net Wed Sep 29 20:48:56 2010 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 21:48:56 -0400 Subject: anyone have access to this article? In-Reply-To: <4CA3D4DD.2030104@neurotica.com> References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net>, <4CA3B872.8000904@bitsavers.org>, <4CA3B9F2.7090206@neurotica.com> <4CA370A9.5731.1EC97E1@cclist.sydex.com> <4CA3D4DD.2030104@neurotica.com> Message-ID: >> Picked it up here, no problem. Very interesting document! > > Damn thing's giving me a 403 here with wget. I tried it in a web >browser and it redirected me to a "here, give us money and we'll let you >read this" page. WTF? They noticed the sudden popularity and started charging for it? They think everyone in southern California is a search bot? In any case, searching on the title reveals that the paper is available for free from the reverse-enginerring firm Chipworks: . This is linked from Chipworks' Whitepapers page, , and there are links to related material, plus a gallery of die art, in the sidebar. -- Kevin Schoedel VA3TCS From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 20:55:49 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 21:55:49 -0400 Subject: IP Fragments - Worth doing, testing strategies? In-Reply-To: <201009300137.o8U1bL6g001342@rickmurphy.net> References: <4CA3E6E5.3000409@brutman.com> <201009300137.o8U1bL6g001342@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <4CA3EE25.5010307@gmail.com> Rick Murphy wrote: > At 09:24 PM 9/29/2010, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > >> Does anybody have a good technique for setting up a simple network >> that will result in IP fragments of TCP? > > Set up a network going through a SLIP link with a small MTU. That's the > easiest way to test such things that I've ever found. We used to use > this kind of configuration to verify VPN implementations across limited > MTUs. You might also block all icmp in between so pmtud doesn't work. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 29 22:36:21 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 23:36:21 -0400 Subject: anyone have access to this article? In-Reply-To: References: <4C9FE2D2.6010103@west.net>, <4CA3B872.8000904@bitsavers.org>, <4CA3B9F2.7090206@neurotica.com> <4CA370A9.5731.1EC97E1@cclist.sydex.com> <4CA3D4DD.2030104@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CA405B5.4060007@neurotica.com> On 9/29/10 9:48 PM, Kevin Schoedel wrote: >>> Picked it up here, no problem. Very interesting document! >> >> Damn thing's giving me a 403 here with wget. I tried it in a web >> browser and it redirected me to a "here, give us money and we'll let you >> read this" page. WTF? > > They noticed the sudden popularity and started charging for it? > They think everyone in southern California is a search bot? I suppose, but I'm in SW FL. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 29 22:38:12 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 23:38:12 -0400 Subject: IP Fragments - Worth doing, testing strategies? In-Reply-To: <4CA3EE25.5010307@gmail.com> References: <4CA3E6E5.3000409@brutman.com> <201009300137.o8U1bL6g001342@rickmurphy.net> <4CA3EE25.5010307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CA40624.3060806@neurotica.com> On 9/29/10 9:55 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> Does anybody have a good technique for setting up a simple network >>> that will result in IP fragments of TCP? >> >> Set up a network going through a SLIP link with a small MTU. That's the >> easiest way to test such things that I've ever found. We used to use >> this kind of configuration to verify VPN implementations across limited >> MTUs. > > You might also block all icmp in between so pmtud doesn't work. That oughtta be easy enough to test. Every clueless network admin in the country blocks ICMP. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 29 22:43:39 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 20:43:39 -0700 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS Message-ID: <4CA4076B.6070300@bitsavers.org> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230532269086 I don't know how he does this, but the auction starting price went up $10 as soon as I started watching the auction. It has happened TWICE now on relists of the same item. From evan at snarc.net Wed Sep 29 22:47:35 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 23:47:35 -0400 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: <4CA4076B.6070300@bitsavers.org> References: <4CA4076B.6070300@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4CA40857.5070103@snarc.net> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230532269086 > > I don't know how he does this, but the auction starting price went up > $10 as soon as I started > watching the auction. Didn't happen to me. Perhaps the seller just happened to change it when you were online? From drb at msu.edu Wed Sep 29 23:11:23 2010 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 00:11:23 -0400 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 29 Sep 2010 20:43:39 PDT.) <4CA4076B.6070300@bitsavers.org> References: <4CA4076B.6070300@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20100930041123.BD67AA580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I don't know how he does this, but the auction starting price went up > $10 as soon as I started watching the auction. He goes in and changes it. It shows in the revision history. You're not doing ebay watches, are you? Can't _imagine_ why anyone would want to give ebay or the seller hard data on interest. De From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Sep 29 23:42:00 2010 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 21:42:00 -0700 Subject: IP Fragments - Worth doing, testing strategies? In-Reply-To: <4CA3E6E5.3000409@brutman.com> (Michael B. Brutman's message of "Wed\, 29 Sep 2010 20\:24\:53 -0500") References: <4CA3E6E5.3000409@brutman.com> Message-ID: <201009300442.o8U4g1kB091673@lots.reanimators.org> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Does anybody have a good technique for setting up a simple network > that will result in IP fragments of TCP? Interpose a router with two interfaces, one configured with a smaller MTU. I expect that's what you're using the Linux box to do. It's either that or fiddle with the sending IP stack so that IP knows the network has a small MTU but TCP doesn't find out. If the sending host is setting the DF bit expecting to get ICMP messages back for path MTU discovery, hmm, that will make this tricky: you could get your router to drop those ICMP messages before they go out, but then your router will give the appearance of silently dropping those DF'd datagrams, and the sending host's path MTU discovery may discover the path MTU slowly through timeouts and backoff, or it may not discover it at all, with the result that the send just fails. What you really want to do in that case is have your router clear the DF bit, adjust the IP header checksum, and then go on to fragment the datagram before sending it out the smaller-MTU interface. This isn't RFC-compliant behavior, but you're wanting to test stuff, right? And since you're wanting to test stuff, the next things will be to check that you're assembling the datagram correctly when you've got all the fragments, and to check that you give up when you don't get all the fragments after some time, and to check that you don't leak memory or packet buffers either when you assemble the datagram or when you give up on the datagram. I wouldn't use Linux for this, but that's because I've done things like this before, using FreeBSD, ipfw, dummynet, netgraph, and a small C program to do the DF-clearing stuff. They're the tools I'm comfortable with for this sort of thing. You may have a learning experience either way, and you've already got a penguin handy, you probably know how to work it better than I do. > On a related note, is this even worth it? I don't know of anything > that needs to send fragments except for NFS over UDP. There might be > other applications that send big packets over UDP but those would be > the only class of applications that absolutely require fragment > support. With TCP it is nice, but a user should be able to get around > any problem by setting the local MTU to 576. It's not that things send fragments, it's that a network link in the middle has a smaller MTU than the networks on the ends and that routers having more knowledge of this than the hosts on the ends fragment large packets as they pass through. The user first has to recognize the problem as one that can be got around in this way. That's a learned response, and I'm not sure how people learn it these days. And yeah, you may be doing this for a PCjr and not supporting a web browser or NFS, but FTP can trip over this pretty easily, and Telnet can too if the phase of the moon is just right. What I'm really saying here is, if you should decide that fragment reassembly isn't worth doing, think instead about having your TCP stack figure out that it's going to be sending to a non-local host, and adjust its MSS downward for those connections. And giving the user a way to turn that behavior off if he's sure it's safe and he finds the switch. -Frank McConnell From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Sep 29 23:44:57 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 00:44:57 -0400 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS References: <4CA4076B.6070300@bitsavers.org> <20100930041123.BD67AA580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <47BD129EBA944278B51D5849ECB42ADA@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Boone" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 12:11 AM Subject: Re: Latest eBay seller BS > > I don't know how he does this, but the auction starting price went up > > $10 as soon as I started watching the auction. > > He goes in and changes it. It shows in the revision history. > > You're not doing ebay watches, are you? Can't _imagine_ why anyone > would want to give ebay or the seller hard data on interest. > > De Why is that? I watch all kinds of items (hard to keep track otherwise). Some I might bid on, others I just want to see the ending price. There are many auctions with ebay watchers that never even bid the first time around. From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 00:01:59 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 22:01:59 -0700 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: <47BD129EBA944278B51D5849ECB42ADA@dell8300> References: <4CA4076B.6070300@bitsavers.org> <20100930041123.BD67AA580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <47BD129EBA944278B51D5849ECB42ADA@dell8300> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 9:44 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Boone" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 12:11 AM > Subject: Re: Latest eBay seller BS > > >> > I don't know how he does this, but the auction starting price went up >> > $10 as soon as I started watching the auction. >> >> He goes in and changes it. ?It shows in the revision history. >> >> You're not doing ebay watches, are you? ?Can't _imagine_ why anyone >> would want to give ebay or the seller hard data on interest. >> >> De > > Why is that? I watch all kinds of items (hard to keep track otherwise). Some > I might bid on, others I just want to see the ending price. There are many > auctions with ebay watchers that never even bid the first time around. Same here. On more than one occasion, if the item doesn't sell the seller will relist it at a lower price. Mark From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 30 00:03:03 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 01:03:03 -0400 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: <47BD129EBA944278B51D5849ECB42ADA@dell8300> References: <4CA4076B.6070300@bitsavers.org> <20100930041123.BD67AA580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <47BD129EBA944278B51D5849ECB42ADA@dell8300> Message-ID: <4CA41A07.6090605@neurotica.com> On 9/30/10 12:44 AM, Teo Zenios wrote: >> > I don't know how he does this, but the auction starting price went up >> > $10 as soon as I started watching the auction. >> >> He goes in and changes it. It shows in the revision history. >> >> You're not doing ebay watches, are you? Can't _imagine_ why anyone >> would want to give ebay or the seller hard data on interest. > > Why is that? I watch all kinds of items (hard to keep track otherwise). > Some I might bid on, others I just want to see the ending price. There > are many auctions with ebay watchers that never even bid the first time > around. So leave the auction open in a browser tab until it ends. When sellers (I'm speaking here as a frequent seller) see that there's lots of interest in an item, they're less likely to relist an item at a lower price...and FAR less likely to edit an existing listing to raise the starting price. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 30 00:05:48 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 01:05:48 -0400 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: <4CA4076B.6070300@bitsavers.org> <20100930041123.BD67AA580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <47BD129EBA944278B51D5849ECB42ADA@dell8300> Message-ID: <4CA41AAC.6000805@neurotica.com> On 9/30/10 1:01 AM, Mark Davidson wrote: >>>> I don't know how he does this, but the auction starting price went up >>>> $10 as soon as I started watching the auction. >>> >>> He goes in and changes it. It shows in the revision history. >>> >>> You're not doing ebay watches, are you? Can't _imagine_ why anyone >>> would want to give ebay or the seller hard data on interest. >> >> Why is that? I watch all kinds of items (hard to keep track otherwise). Some >> I might bid on, others I just want to see the ending price. There are many >> auctions with ebay watchers that never even bid the first time around. > > Same here. On more than one occasion, if the item doesn't sell the > seller will relist it at a lower price. ...but that's much less likely to happen if they know there's a lot of interest in the item, which is exactly what you're showing him/her with a large number of watchers. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Thu Sep 30 00:15:52 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 23:15:52 -0600 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 30 Sep 2010 00:44:57 -0400. <47BD129EBA944278B51D5849ECB42ADA@dell8300> Message-ID: In article <47BD129EBA944278B51D5849ECB42ADA at dell8300>, "Teo Zenios" writes: > Why is that? I watch all kinds of items (hard to keep track otherwise). Some > I might bid on, others I just want to see the ending price. There are many > auctions with ebay watchers that never even bid the first time around. I do the same thing. I routinely watch auctions that never get a bid and watch plenty of things on which I never bid. I watch them so that I can keep an idea on what kinds of prices are being fetched for certain kinds of items. Other times I just watch to see if anyone is stupid to bid on an inflated price. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 30 00:27:41 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 01:27:41 -0400 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> On 9/29/10 1:44 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Unlike a custom silicon device. OK, I am >>> strange, but I nearly always favour the simple solution. >> >> Sure, but this is a mass-market device that will never be >> "collectible" in any sense. The choice is between a cheap device that > > True. You have to realise, though, that even for stuff I am going to use, > I prefer things I can repair. I know this is odd, but I would rather have > something that needs minor repairs every couple of years (like replacing > microswitches) but if I do that can carru on running for many years than > something that runs fine for 5 years and then fails in a way that I can't > fix. Fair enough. And I do see where you're coming from, but for something as pedestrian as a mass-market mouse, personally I don't go that far. More power to you, though. >> will last maybe a year or two and give limited functionality, or a more >> expensive device that will last more likely a decade or more (I have >> several decade-old expensive Apple optical mice) and give enhanced > > And how many of those used capacitive sensors in place of switches? None of course, but they all use imaging-based optical positioning sensors rather than mechanical rollers, axles, and opto-interrupter wheels. >> "I'm not rich enough to buy cheap tools." ;) *poke* > > Indeed not. But equally, I want to be sure that when I buy the expensive > tool I am actually paying the money for what I want. And not, say, > gimmicks that do noting for the useability or reliavility of the tool. Sure, but the types of functionality we're talking about are far from "gimmicks". I'm the most gimmick-averse person you'll ever meet (save for perhaps yourself ;)) and *I* want one of those new mice. Why? Because I want a scroll wheel that's not a "wheel" (I find them very difficult to use), and I want two-finger zoom manipulation. This is real functionality that I will use every day...I know this because my laptop has that functionality in its trackpad, and I use it to great advantage. Just my $6.72. (inflation..) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Sep 30 00:31:15 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 01:31:15 -0400 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS References: <4CA4076B.6070300@bitsavers.org> <20100930041123.BD67AA580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <47BD129EBA944278B51D5849ECB42ADA@dell8300> <4CA41AAC.6000805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <548DE3DE80DC4C969CC8072275C3216A@dell8300> >> Same here. On more than one occasion, if the item doesn't sell the >> seller will relist it at a lower price. > > ...but that's much less likely to happen if they know there's a lot of > interest in the item, which is exactly what you're showing him/her with a > large number of watchers. > > -Dave > Happens all the time, they want the item to sell (relisting fees cost money) so they will eventually drop the price or just trash the item (if they think there is no market at all). If you have a car for sale in your front yard and 20 people come to look it over in a month but nobody offers to buy it at your price you will eventually lower it to get rid of it (thinking the item is wanted but the price is just too high). From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 30 00:45:20 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 01:45:20 -0400 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: <548DE3DE80DC4C969CC8072275C3216A@dell8300> References: <4CA4076B.6070300@bitsavers.org> <20100930041123.BD67AA580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <47BD129EBA944278B51D5849ECB42ADA@dell8300> <4CA41AAC.6000805@neurotica.com> <548DE3DE80DC4C969CC8072275C3216A@dell8300> Message-ID: <4CA423F0.6030304@neurotica.com> On 9/30/10 1:31 AM, Teo Zenios wrote: >>> Same here. On more than one occasion, if the item doesn't sell the >>> seller will relist it at a lower price. >> >> ...but that's much less likely to happen if they know there's a lot of >> interest in the item, which is exactly what you're showing him/her >> with a large number of watchers. > > Happens all the time, they want the item to sell (relisting fees cost > money) so they will eventually drop the price or just trash the item (if > they think there is no market at all). > > If you have a car for sale in your front yard and 20 people come to look > it over in a month but nobody offers to buy it at your price you will > eventually lower it to get rid of it (thinking the item is wanted but > the price is just too high). Again speaking as a frequent seller, this really isn't the same thing. Twenty people stopping by to see it is very different from the same twenty people driving by severa times per day to see if it has sold yet. One registers interest, the other does not. I personally drop my prices significantly on a re-list (as well as revisit my auction text and title wording) if there were no watchers. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 06:39:22 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 12:39:22 +0100 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 30 September 2010 06:27, Dave McGuire wrote: > > *I* want one of those new mice. ?Why? Because I > want a scroll wheel that's not a "wheel" (I find them very difficult to > use), and I want two-finger zoom manipulation. ?This is real functionality > that I will use every day...I know this because my laptop has that > functionality in its trackpad, and I use it to great advantage. That's interesting. I find a wheel easier than 2-finger gestures. Mind you, I preferred the system on the Acorn Archimedes, where left-clicking a scrollbar arrow scrolled in the direction it pointed but *right*-clicking it scrolled the opposite way. This was so simple and efficient that there was no need for a wheel, really. Nobody has ever implemented 3-button mouse support as efficiently and gracefully as Acorn RISC OS did, to my mind. But more generally, I think I am seeing an interesting trend which I find positive: the gradual removal of mechanical, moving parts from PCs (and Macs). Spinning HDDs are gradually being replaced by SSDs. Floppy drives have pretty much gone; optical drives will follow them in time. Blueray is probably the last iteration of that technology, although we might see a physical media shrink of it first, before it goes. The last hold-out is the cooling fan and they are a real point of weakness, as they clog up with dust and cause the system to fail. I hope to see some improved, solid-state cooling mechanisms come along and deliver sealed-box, airtight PCs with no moving parts or airflow inside. Then the only bits that move will be the keyboards and mice. Mice I regard as relatively disposable; optical ones are cheap and work well, so despite my initial reservations about the "waste" of CPU power on tracking the movement of the desk surface underneath the sensor, hell, it's worth it. They're cheap, simple, need next to no cleaning or maintenance and last for ages. Some of mine are now pushing a decade old, work fine and have outlived 2, 3 or 4 PCs. So a mouse with no moving parts, no microswitches or buttons, could only be an improvement, in that sense. I want the thing to have a damned cable, though, not a wireless transciever and batteries. Too untrendy for Apple but perhaps someone will find a way to clone the Magic Mouse without infringing. As for keyboards, well, some of my Model Ms are now pushing 25, so I am not worried about their longevity. :?) -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Sep 30 08:31:05 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 06:31:05 -0700 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: <20100930041123.BD67AA580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <4CA4076B.6070300@bitsavers.org>, <20100930041123.BD67AA580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > From: drb at msu.edu > Subject: Re: Latest eBay seller BS > Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 00:11:23 -0400 > > > I don't know how he does this, but the auction starting price went up > > $10 as soon as I started watching the auction. > > He goes in and changes it. It shows in the revision history. > > You're not doing ebay watches, are you? Can't _imagine_ why anyone > would want to give ebay or the seller hard data on interest. > > De Hi Until the first persom bids, the seller can change the price, description or anything they want without a history change. Dwight From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 08:47:47 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 08:47:47 -0500 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: > Mind > you, I preferred the system on the Acorn Archimedes, where > left-clicking a scrollbar arrow scrolled in the direction it pointed > but *right*-clicking it scrolled the opposite way. This was so simple > and efficient that there was no need for a wheel, really. Hmm, I think X windows had something similar at one time - middle button to drag the bar, left button to automatically go up and page and right button to go down a page (if I remember right, it did jump by a screenful, rather than smaller increments) > Nobody has > ever implemented 3-button mouse support as efficiently and gracefully > as Acorn RISC OS did, to my mind. I've got some internal Acorn emails from that era related to their UI design - one day I'll have to see about 'releasing' them. It's interesting reading, seeing their thoughts about what features they should implement, and their analysis of what the competition was up to. > The last hold-out is the cooling fan and they are a real point of > weakness, as they clog up with dust and cause the system to fail. I > hope to see some improved, solid-state cooling mechanisms come along > and deliver sealed-box, airtight PCs with no moving parts or airflow > inside. Hmm, those Dyson bladeless fans, maybe? (No idea how that technology works, or if it needs a minimum size to do so effectively). I think that *good* bladed fans rarely fail, though - it's just that 99% of those inside modern PCs are cheap junk. Oh, and I've had old all-metal fans of around 5" or so which are very quiet in comparison to modern plastic-bladed, smaller versions. Maybe systems just need better airflow design/ducting and a single larger-but-quieter fan. That and sensible grilles - a lot of PCs just have stamped grilles with rough slot edges, and they create a huge amount of noise (as well as collecting dust) compared to grilles of old which were formed from round metal stock. > Then the only bits that move will be the keyboards and mice. Mice I > regard as relatively disposable; optical ones are cheap and work well, > so despite my initial reservations about the "waste" of CPU power on > tracking the movement of the desk surface underneath the sensor, hell, > it's worth it. They're cheap, simple, need next to no cleaning or > maintenance and last for ages. Some of mine are now pushing a decade > old, work fine and have outlived 2, 3 or 4 PCs. It's rare I've had a traditional rodent fail on me and be unfixable, though - a good clean now and then, and the odd microswitch is about it. What I really dislike are mice that try to be too ergonomic (OK if you have an average hand size and are right-handed, bad for everyone else) or which have too many unnecessary buttons (3 is good, more is pointless) > I want the thing to have a damned cable, though, not a wireless > transciever and batteries. Yes, me too - I like the reliability of cables. There was a lot of hoo-hah about wireless charging a couple of years ago, but that seems to have gone quiet for the moment (it'd at least solve the battery swap problem) > As for keyboards, well, some of my Model Ms are now pushing 25, so I > am not worried about their longevity. :?) Yes, this one turns 25 next year :-) cheers Jules From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 08:56:36 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 14:56:36 +0100 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 30 September 2010 14:47, Jules Richardson wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: >> >> Mind >> you, I preferred the system on the Acorn Archimedes, where >> left-clicking a scrollbar arrow scrolled in the direction it pointed >> but *right*-clicking it scrolled the opposite way. This was so simple >> and efficient that there was no need for a wheel, really. > > Hmm, I think X windows had something similar at one time - middle button to > drag the bar, left button to automatically go up and page and right button > to go down a page (if I remember right, it did jump by a screenful, rather > than smaller increments) Interesting. I have played with a fairly primitive X setup, no modern window managers and so on, and yes, it did some of that, but I'd not registered the direction-switching bit, which (for my money) is the core usability feature. ISTR going "ooh, it's like RISC OS", playing to see if the features I liked were there, and being disappointed - but I might have missed it. >> Nobody has >> ever implemented 3-button mouse support as efficiently and gracefully >> as Acorn RISC OS did, to my mind. > > I've got some internal Acorn emails from that era related to their UI design > - one day I'll have to see about 'releasing' them. It's interesting reading, > seeing their thoughts about what features they should implement, and their > analysis of what the competition was up to. Oh, that would be cool! >> The last hold-out is the cooling fan and they are a real point of >> weakness, as they clog up with dust and cause the system to fail. I >> hope to see some improved, solid-state cooling mechanisms come along >> and deliver sealed-box, airtight PCs with no moving parts or airflow >> inside. > > Hmm, those Dyson bladeless fans, maybe? (No idea how that technology works, > or if it needs a minimum size to do so effectively). They cheat. It does have conventional fans, with blades, they're just concealed within the base. No whizzy electrostatic impellers or anything here. Nothing to see, move along. :?) > I think that *good* bladed fans rarely fail, though - it's just that 99% of > those inside modern PCs are cheap junk. Oh, and I've had old all-metal fans > of around 5" or so which are very quiet in comparison to modern > plastic-bladed, smaller versions. Maybe systems just need better airflow > design/ducting and a single larger-but-quieter fan. That and sensible > grilles - a lot of PCs just have stamped grilles with rough slot edges, and > they create a huge amount of noise (as well as collecting dust) compared to > grilles of old which were formed from round metal stock. You may be right there, although I've seen round-metal-bar brazed-together grilles clog, albeit in fairly extreme conditions. But like it or not, the PC is moving toward being a consumer appliance, like TVs or phones. There are no commercial TV or phone repairmen around any more; the PC will go the same way. The question is, will they do it well or not? And if the big players don't, is there room for a small company to make money doing it right? >> Then the only bits that move will be the keyboards and mice. Mice I >> regard as relatively disposable; optical ones are cheap and work well, >> so despite my initial reservations about the "waste" of CPU power on >> tracking the movement of the desk surface underneath the sensor, hell, >> it's worth it. They're cheap, simple, need next to no cleaning or >> maintenance and last for ages. Some of mine are now pushing a decade >> old, work fine and have outlived 2, 3 or 4 PCs. > > It's rare I've had a traditional rodent fail on me and be unfixable, though > - a good clean now and then, and the odd microswitch is about it. Conceded. > What I > really dislike are mice that try to be too ergonomic (OK if you have an > average hand size and are right-handed, bad for everyone else) or which have > too many unnecessary buttons (3 is good, more is pointless) Entirely agree. But no buttons is also an infinite number of buttons, in a way. Apple /were/ right, like it or not - there are abundant figures to prove it. 1 button *is* the easiest for novices. Mind you, come to that, as ordinary user PCs migrate to being multi-touch-operated slates, it could be that mice will disappear altogether. Keyboards too, when the speech recognition gets good enough. >> I want the thing to have a damned cable, though, not a wireless >> transciever and batteries. > > Yes, me too - I like the reliability of cables. There was a lot of hoo-hah > about wireless charging a couple of years ago, but that seems to have gone > quiet for the moment (it'd at least solve the battery swap problem) Oh, it's coming. Much argument over techniques and standards. They'll squabble for a while then make it work. >> As for keyboards, well, some of my Model Ms are now pushing 25, so I >> am not worried about their longevity. :?) > > Yes, this one turns 25 next year :-) Aha! I think this particular one is a relative youngster, from 1993. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Sep 30 09:31:23 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 10:31:23 -0400 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com><4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1EA59A31D7BA45A0882FF9D914A913EB@dell8300> I have somewhere around 8 Model M keyboards (most found at the recycler) and none had a bad key (all needed cleaning but look new now). I also have a Model F that works great and is older them the model M. I wonder if anybody would have kept using those model F's for 25+ years (if they worked on AT machines)? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liam Proven" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 9:56 AM Subject: Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse On 30 September 2010 14:47, Jules Richardson wrote: >> As for keyboards, well, some of my Model Ms are now pushing 25, so I >> am not worried about their longevity. :?) > > Yes, this one turns 25 next year :-) Aha! I think this particular one is a relative youngster, from 1993. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Thu Sep 30 09:34:34 2010 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 09:34:34 -0500 Subject: FS: 80186 chips Message-ID: While reorganizing my parts cabinet, I came across three unused AMD '186 CPUs from the early 1980's, still in original antistatic plastic box. One 80L186-16, one 80C186-25, and the small one is also an 80C186-25. http://s1181.photobucket.com/albums/x426/DrCharlesMorris/?action=view¤t=P9300018.jpg $10 shipped in US; $10 plus actual postage internationally. thanks Charles From doc at vaxen.net Thu Sep 30 10:38:03 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 10:38:03 -0500 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CA4AEDB.2060802@vaxen.net> Liam Proven wrote: > On 30 September 2010 14:47, Jules Richardson > wrote: >> Hmm, I think X windows had something similar at one time - middle button to >> drag the bar, left button to automatically go up and page and right button >> to go down a page (if I remember right, it did jump by a screenful, rather >> than smaller increments) > > Interesting. I have played with a fairly primitive X setup, no modern > window managers and so on, and yes, it did some of that, but I'd not > registered the direction-switching bit, which (for my money) is the > core usability feature. ISTR going "ooh, it's like RISC OS", playing > to see if the features I liked were there, and being disappointed - > but I might have missed it. If I remember rightly, that was a feature of one of the window managers, rather than the X server itself, but it was indeed a feature. I want to say it was either twm or mwm, and I'm pretty sure it was configurable. And just to pick a nit, it's "X" or "The X Window System", but never ever "X Windows". :^) Doc From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 30 11:42:26 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 09:42:26 -0700 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: <20100930041123.BD67AA580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <4CA4076B.6070300@bitsavers.org> <20100930041123.BD67AA580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4CA4BDF2.2060303@bitsavers.org> On 9/29/10 9:11 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: > You're not doing ebay watches, are you? I am REALLY starting to think there is a market for an alternative to eBay search/monitoring geared to BUYERS. Things I'd like to see - blacklisting of sellers so I NEVER see their overpriced listings - private monitoring of auctions - notification if a seller EVER raises the starting price of an item Of course, no one would be willing to PAY for this, so the first thing that would happen is they'd start selling the statistics to sellers.. From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Sep 30 12:13:16 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 13:13:16 -0400 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS References: <4CA4076B.6070300@bitsavers.org><20100930041123.BD67AA580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4CA4BDF2.2060303@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <926FBEE0BAF5415B8FA3E207BA3E9542@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 12:42 PM Subject: Re: Latest eBay seller BS > On 9/29/10 9:11 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: > >> You're not doing ebay watches, are you? > > I am REALLY starting to think there is a market for an alternative to > eBay search/monitoring geared to BUYERS. > > Things I'd like to see > > - blacklisting of sellers so I NEVER see their overpriced listings > - private monitoring of auctions > - notification if a seller EVER raises the starting price of an item > > Of course, no one would be willing to PAY for this, so the first thing > that would happen is they'd start selling the statistics to sellers.. > > The only thing I would like to see is a way of booting sellers using shills. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 30 12:13:54 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 13:13:54 -0400 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4CA4AEDB.2060802@vaxen.net> References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> <4CA4AEDB.2060802@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4CA4C552.5060301@neurotica.com> On 9/30/10 11:38 AM, Doc wrote: >>> Hmm, I think X windows had something similar at one time - middle >>> button to >>> drag the bar, left button to automatically go up and page and right >>> button >>> to go down a page (if I remember right, it did jump by a screenful, >>> rather >>> than smaller increments) >> >> Interesting. I have played with a fairly primitive X setup, no modern >> window managers and so on, and yes, it did some of that, but I'd not >> registered the direction-switching bit, which (for my money) is the >> core usability feature. ISTR going "ooh, it's like RISC OS", playing >> to see if the features I liked were there, and being disappointed - >> but I might have missed it. > > If I remember rightly, that was a feature of one of the window managers, > rather than the X server itself, but it was indeed a feature. I want to > say it was either twm or mwm, and I'm pretty sure it was configurable. It's not part of the window manager, it's part of the "toolkit". That word has a slightly special meaning in X; basically it's a higher-level set of widgets that sits atop raw Xlib. Typically-implemented widgets are buttons, menus, and...scrollbars. The behavior that Jules mentions is specific to the scrollbars implemented by Xt, for "X toolkit", which is a standard toolkit that ships with X11. Nowadays, though, most apps use other toolkits like GTK+ or Qt. > And just to pick a nit, it's "X" or "The X Window System", but never > ever "X Windows". :^) Thank you. =) I was debating mentioning it but didn't want to sound too pedantic. I'm glad you did. :) "It's a window system called X, not a system called X Window". -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 12:17:49 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 13:17:49 -0400 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: <926FBEE0BAF5415B8FA3E207BA3E9542@dell8300> References: <4CA4076B.6070300@bitsavers.org> <20100930041123.BD67AA580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4CA4BDF2.2060303@bitsavers.org> <926FBEE0BAF5415B8FA3E207BA3E9542@dell8300> Message-ID: On 9/30/10, Teo Zenios wrote: > The only thing I would like to see is a way of booting sellers using shills. I ran into lots of that with some of the bulk and surplus reseller auctions a while back (Buycomp.com, etc). I gave up. It's just too obvious when someone comes in and buys 500 items at the floor price on a Dutch Auction when only 1/3 of the goods are allocated to the existing buyers (i.e., the seller wasn't going to have to sell a partial load at the opening price). I've seen a bunch of shill bidding on eBay too, but I guess since I bid on less than one thing a month, I don't see it as often as I used to. -ethan From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Thu Sep 30 12:34:03 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 10:34:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The lazarus 64 Message-ID: <643760.69823.qm@web113513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> This is a bit off topic, but no so much. Here a guy designs his own 8 bit retro system and has somewhat documented the thing http://www.lucidscience.com/pro-lazarus-64%20prototype-1.aspx For all you hardware junkies, you will like this. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 12:37:51 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 12:37:51 -0500 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4CA4AEDB.2060802@vaxen.net> References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> <4CA4AEDB.2060802@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4CA4CAEF.30001@gmail.com> Doc wrote: > And just to pick a nit, it's "X" or "The X Window System", but never > ever "X Windows". :^) The correction's appreciated - I knew it was wrong, but was being lazy in looking up the right terminology :-) cheers Jules From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 30 14:01:58 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 12:01:58 -0700 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: <4CA4BDF2.2060303@bitsavers.org> References: <4CA4076B.6070300@bitsavers.org> <20100930041123.BD67AA580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4CA4BDF2.2060303@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4CA4DEA6.5020402@bitsavers.org> On 9/30/10 9:42 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 9/29/10 9:11 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: > >> You're not doing ebay watches, are you? > > I am REALLY starting to think there is a market for an alternative to > eBay search/monitoring geared to BUYERS. > > Things I'd like to see > > - blacklisting of sellers so I NEVER see their overpriced listings > - private monitoring of auctions > - notification if a seller EVER raises the starting price of an item > just thought of another thing.. Integration with something like streetprices.com, so you know what going NEW price is. I'm puzzled when people don't realize you can buy something NEW for less than a bid price. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 14:11:22 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 15:11:22 -0400 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: <926FBEE0BAF5415B8FA3E207BA3E9542@dell8300> References: <4CA4076B.6070300@bitsavers.org> <20100930041123.BD67AA580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4CA4BDF2.2060303@bitsavers.org> <926FBEE0BAF5415B8FA3E207BA3E9542@dell8300> Message-ID: > The only thing I would like to see is a way of booting sellers using shills. Every auction since some ancient Greek wanted the enhance the price of his sheep has had shills. Ebay does kick shills off when they catch them - they just do not advertise an account cancellation as "Caught Shilling". "Administrative Cancellation" sounds more sterile but safe for business. And as well seasoned veteran, my observation is that the whole shill concern is quite overblown. It is just not nearly as common as some would like to believe. It is easy to blame a shill than to come to grips that lots of others with deep pockets like this stuff as well. -- Will From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Thu Sep 30 14:12:23 2010 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 14:12:23 -0500 Subject: IP Fragments - Worth doing, testing strategies? In-Reply-To: <201009300442.o8U4g1kB091673@lots.reanimators.org> References: <4CA3E6E5.3000409@brutman.com> <201009300442.o8U4g1kB091673@lots.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <4CA4E117.9050908@brutman.com> Frank McConnell wrote: > Michael B. Brutman wrote: >> Does anybody have a good technique for setting up a simple network >> that will result in IP fragments of TCP? > > Interpose a router with two interfaces, one configured with a smaller > MTU. I expect that's what you're using the Linux box to do. It's either > that or fiddle with the sending IP stack so that IP knows the network > has a small MTU but TCP doesn't find out. That is exactly what the Linux box in the middle is supposed to be doing. One interface is setup for an MTU of 1500, and the other is setup for an MTU of 576. > If the sending host is setting the DF bit expecting to get ICMP > messages back for path MTU discovery, hmm, that will make this tricky: > you could get your router to drop those ICMP messages before they go > out, but then your router will give the appearance of silently > dropping those DF'd datagrams, and the sending host's path MTU > discovery may discover the path MTU slowly through timeouts and > backoff, or it may not discover it at all, with the result that the > send just fails. All of the modern TCP/IP implementations seem to use a combination of these techniques. The Windows XP machine I'm using for the FTP server definitely is, and I really don't want to mess with the registry. Overall this is a good thing for end users, but a pain for those of us trying to implement. > What you really want to do in that case is have your router clear the > DF bit, adjust the IP header checksum, and then go on to fragment the > datagram before sending it out the smaller-MTU interface. This isn't > RFC-compliant behavior, but you're wanting to test stuff, right? > > And since you're wanting to test stuff, the next things will be to > check that you're assembling the datagram correctly when you've got > all the fragments, and to check that you give up when you don't get > all the fragments after some time, and to check that you don't leak > memory or packet buffers either when you assemble the datagram or when > you give up on the datagram. > > I wouldn't use Linux for this, but that's because I've done things > like this before, using FreeBSD, ipfw, dummynet, netgraph, and > a small C program to do the DF-clearing stuff. They're the tools > I'm comfortable with for this sort of thing. You may have a learning > experience either way, and you've already got a penguin handy, you > probably know how to work it better than I do. I'm hesitant to start writing my own router test code because it is error prone too and I'll wind up making my code match the test. But after giving it some more thought, I would get much better error injection capability than I have now if I started mucking with the packets myself. >> On a related note, is this even worth it? I don't know of anything >> that needs to send fragments except for NFS over UDP. There might be >> other applications that send big packets over UDP but those would be >> the only class of applications that absolutely require fragment >> support. With TCP it is nice, but a user should be able to get around >> any problem by setting the local MTU to 576. > > It's not that things send fragments, it's that a network link in the > middle has a smaller MTU than the networks on the ends and that > routers having more knowledge of this than the hosts on the ends > fragment large packets as they pass through. Correct, but actually in the case of large UDP packets the source machine sends the fragments. TCP is too dang smart and tries all of the path MTU discovery tricks, but UDP doesn't have that luxury. Which is great because it does give me an easy way to test - but only with UDP. I put the gateway in the middle of the machines to try to force TCP fragments. I may have to get more perverse and use a SLIP connection to the DOS machine, which has a much smaller MTU. But I suspect that the TCP path length discovery will get in the way again. (I'm really going to have to try to turn all of that off.) > The user first has to recognize the problem as one that can be got > around in this way. That's a learned response, and I'm not sure how > people learn it these days. And yeah, you may be doing this for a > PCjr and not supporting a web browser or NFS, but FTP can trip over > this pretty easily, and Telnet can too if the phase of the moon is > just right. Right. And that's why I want to add fragmentation support. I get an occasional report of a program not working, and if it just looks like a failed connection or a packet loss problem there isn't much I can do. I set the DF bit on, but ICMP gets filtered too often so I can't rely on it to tell me that fragmentation is needed. For those users I tell them to lower the MTU, but I don't know how many people are giving up without talking to me first. (And I have all of this in the README, but nobody reads those.) > What I'm really saying here is, if you should decide that fragment > reassembly isn't worth doing, think instead about having your TCP > stack figure out that it's going to be sending to a non-local host, > and adjust its MSS downward for those connections. And giving the > user a way to turn that behavior off if he's sure it's safe and he > finds the switch. > -Frank McConnell > > That's not a bad idea! Local subnet = large MTU is probably safe, anything else fall back to 576. The additional expense of the fragmentation reassembly code is 3KB of code, and anywhere from 4kb to 32kb of data depending on the configuration. I was pre-allocating the memory for the packet reassembly; seeing how rare it really is I might go to malloc and deal with the performance penalty. Once you start having to reassemble packets your performance has gone to hell anyway. Thanks - this has been helpful. Regards, Mike From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 14:13:42 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 15:13:42 -0400 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: <4CA4BDF2.2060303@bitsavers.org> References: <4CA4076B.6070300@bitsavers.org> <20100930041123.BD67AA580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4CA4BDF2.2060303@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > I am REALLY starting to think there is a market for an alternative to > eBay search/monitoring geared to BUYERS. > > Things I'd like to see > > - blacklisting of sellers so I NEVER see their overpriced listings > - private monitoring of auctions > - notification if a seller EVER raises the starting price of an item > > Of course, no one would be willing to PAY for this, Also, EBay crushes 3rd party things like this. They have quite the army of in house counsel. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 14:17:25 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 15:17:25 -0400 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4CA4CAEF.30001@gmail.com> References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> <4CA4AEDB.2060802@vaxen.net> <4CA4CAEF.30001@gmail.com> Message-ID: > The correction's appreciated - I knew it was wrong, but was being lazy in > looking up the right terminology :-) The term "X Windows", as "improper" as it is, is very widely used and understood. - Will From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 30 14:20:38 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 12:20:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: <4CA4DEA6.5020402@bitsavers.org> References: <4CA4076B.6070300@bitsavers.org> <20100930041123.BD67AA580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4CA4BDF2.2060303@bitsavers.org> <4CA4DEA6.5020402@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Sep 2010, Al Kossow wrote: > just thought of another thing.. > > Integration with something like streetprices.com, so you know what going > NEW price is. > > I'm puzzled when people don't realize you can buy something NEW for less > than a bid price. This is something that really drives me crazy. This isn't simply a problem with eBay either, I frequently see this on Craigslist for the stuff I monitor it for. I recently ran into just this issue at a Camera store that takes consignments. They had a very nice used book on Paper Negatives I was interested in. I almost bought it, but couldn't bring myself to pay what they wanted. Then I learned you could not only get the book new still, but that it was on Amazon for 2/5ths what the store wanted. Needless to say a new copy of the book is sitting on my desk at this moment. Zane From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 30 13:13:17 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 19:13:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sharp IS501 OPIC In-Reply-To: <201009300127.o8U1Rjdl010478@billY.EZWIND.NET> from "John Foust" at Sep 29, 10 08:27:20 pm Message-ID: > > At 01:16 PM 9/29/2010, Tony Duell wrote: > >I havea shaft encoder here in a classic (well, it's over 10 years old > >:-)) printer. > > What make and model of printer? The printer is an Olivetti JP10 'Sparkjet'. The encoder unit has the followind moulded int othe plastic cover : 'Encoder GP-1R12 Olivetti Made in Japan' The encoder is fitted to the front of the print mechanism chassis and has as 4 wire cable that plugs into the logic board. To remove the encoder, you unclip a cover over the boss of the encocer wheel and remove the setscrew that hols this to the carriage cable drum spidle. Then undo the 2 larger screws on the front of the encoder and slide it off the spidle. If the cable drumn comes out of the rear bearing there's a real danger the carriage drive cable withl come off and you'll have the 'fun' job of sorting it all out. After rremoving the encoder, it can be dismantled by first peeling off the foam insulator on the rear surface. Then desolder the LED wires (The LED is pushed into a hole in the front cover) from the PCB. Take out the 3 screes, nuts and washers. It then separates into 4 parts -- the front cover (and the LED, whcih can be pushed out), the encoder disk, the rear cover/bearing. and the PCB. I have done this to mine and refitted the rear cover/bearing to the printer chassis just so the carriage cable drum stays in place. The 4 wires to the logic PCB are +5V, ground and 2 output signals which I will bet are the normal quadrature outputs. The encoder disk is bout 30mm in diameter and has 60 slots in it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 30 12:46:36 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 18:46:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 9816, and more, available in Eugene, Oregon In-Reply-To: <4CA33D19.9561.1232B7D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 29, 10 01:20:25 pm Message-ID: > > On 29 Sep 2010 at 18:31, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I can't believe you made the other somehat common mistake of assuming > > the thing with a CRT in it is just a monitor and all the logic is in > > the disk drive. > > That wasn't me. I know better--I think I've seen one of these before- > -an incredibly crammed-full 68K CPU board. Yes, the 9816 CPU board is pretty well packed. So is the 9817 ('shoebox' style case) board. Theyr'e the same size, but the latter contains no user RAM, instead thaere's an MMU (and not a single-chip thing). There are other changes to the keybaord/sound circuitry too. I've never tried it, but it appears you could put hteh 9816 CPU board in the shoebox cae or the 9817 board in the 9816 'monitor style' case with just some link changes. Incidnetally, the disk drive unit does contain a microprocesosr (6809) and it is possible to download and run programs on it (there's a diangonstic command for this purpose). Something else that I have never tried. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 30 13:18:21 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 19:18:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: <4CA41A07.6090605@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 30, 10 01:03:03 am Message-ID: > So leave the auction open in a browser tab until it ends. When DOens't that imply yo uhave a machine left running all the time, probably connected to the internet all the time? That's a luxury that not all of us have. > sellers (I'm speaking here as a frequent seller) see that there's lots > of interest in an item, they're less likely to relist an item at a lower > price...and FAR less likely to edit an existing listing to raise the > starting price. Hang on a second. If you list something with a starting bid of, say, $50 and you notice that plenty of people are wathcing the item and yet nobody bids on it, doesnt; this suggest your starting bid is too high? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 30 14:21:53 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 20:21:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Sep 30, 10 12:39:22 pm Message-ID: > But more generally, I think I am seeing an interesting trend which I > find positive: the gradual removal of mechanical, moving parts from > PCs (and Macs). Spinning HDDs are gradually being replaced by SSDs. Hmm... I see this often as a negative trend in that I can fix the mechanical bits (other than HDDs) and can't fix custom silicon. It may be cheaper to replace, but when you have a deadline looming, the ability ot get the machine workign again is very useful... > The last hold-out is the cooling fan and they are a real point of > weakness, as they clog up with dust and cause the system to fail. I > hope to see some improved, solid-state cooling mechanisms come along How are these supposed to work (without violating the 2nd law)? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 30 14:01:42 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 20:01:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 30, 10 01:27:41 am Message-ID: > > True. You have to realise, though, that even for stuff I am going to use, > > I prefer things I can repair. I know this is odd, but I would rather have > > something that needs minor repairs every couple of years (like replacing > > microswitches) but if I do that can carru on running for many years than > > something that runs fine for 5 years and then fails in a way that I can't > > fix. > > Fair enough. And I do see where you're coming from, but for > something as pedestrian as a mass-market mouse, personally I don't go > that far. More power to you, though. And if my mousebutton fails at a time when I need to get something done _THEN_. I would rather have to kludge up a repalcement for a microswitch -- if necessary 2 bits of wire that I could touch together -- than a replacement for a custom IC. > > >> will last maybe a year or two and give limited functionality, or a more > >> expensive device that will last more likely a decade or more (I have > >> several decade-old expensive Apple optical mice) and give enhanced > > > > And how many of those used capacitive sensors in place of switches? > > None of course, but they all use imaging-based optical positioning > sensors rather than mechanical rollers, axles, and opto-interrupter wheels. I think i'd prefer the optointerrupters... Although as my message asking for data on an IS501 drives indicates, those optointerrupters can fail too... -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 30 14:27:35 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 15:27:35 -0400 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> <4CA4AEDB.2060802@vaxen.net> <4CA4CAEF.30001@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CA4E4A7.6000300@neurotica.com> On 9/30/10 3:17 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> The correction's appreciated - I knew it was wrong, but was being lazy in >> looking up the right terminology :-) > > The term "X Windows", as "improper" as it is, is very widely used and > understood. Does the "evolution" of language due to imprecision and "not giving a shit" legitimately apply to proper names? If so, I'm going to go read some more works of William Shake-a-Wanker. Hey, if you knew who I was talking about, it must be ok, right? It's The X Window System, or X, or X11. Period. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 14:27:38 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 15:27:38 -0400 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: <4CA4076B.6070300@bitsavers.org> <20100930041123.BD67AA580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4CA4BDF2.2060303@bitsavers.org> <4CA4DEA6.5020402@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > I recently ran into just this issue at a Camera store that takes > consignments. ?They had a very nice used book on Paper Negatives I was > interested in. ?I almost bought it, but couldn't bring myself to pay what > they wanted. ?Then I learned you could not only get the book new still, but > that it was on Amazon for 2/5ths what the store wanted. ?Needless to say a > new copy of the book is sitting on my desk at this moment. Keep in mind that many stores, most notably antique and book stores, do a fair amount of business to impulse shoppers. The stores can ask a good buck to some of their items, and often enough they get it. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 30 14:29:30 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 15:29:30 -0400 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA4E51A.1070908@neurotica.com> On 9/30/10 3:01 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> True. You have to realise, though, that even for stuff I am going to use, >>> I prefer things I can repair. I know this is odd, but I would rather have >>> something that needs minor repairs every couple of years (like replacing >>> microswitches) but if I do that can carru on running for many years than >>> something that runs fine for 5 years and then fails in a way that I can't >>> fix. >> >> Fair enough. And I do see where you're coming from, but for >> something as pedestrian as a mass-market mouse, personally I don't go >> that far. More power to you, though. > > And if my mousebutton fails at a time when I need to get something done > _THEN_. I would rather have to kludge up a repalcement for a microswitch > -- if necessary 2 bits of wire that I could touch together -- than a > replacement for a custom IC. Come on, you don't have a box of mice kicking around? Even nontechnical people I know have at least two or three in a closet somewhere. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 14:30:39 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 15:30:39 -0400 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: <4CA4076B.6070300@bitsavers.org> <20100930041123.BD67AA580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4CA4BDF2.2060303@bitsavers.org> <926FBEE0BAF5415B8FA3E207BA3E9542@dell8300> Message-ID: On 9/30/10, William Donzelli wrote: >> The only thing I would like to see is a way of booting sellers using >> shills. > > Every auction since some ancient Greek wanted the enhance the price of > his sheep has had shills. Yes. The difference is that when everyone is in the same room, a veteran bidder can spot signs, recognize familiar faces, etc. This is not as easy with a virtual auction. > Ebay does kick shills off when they catch > them - they just do not advertise an account cancellation as "Caught > Shilling". "Administrative Cancellation" sounds more sterile but safe > for business. Sure... when they catch them. > And as well seasoned veteran, my observation is that the whole shill > concern is quite overblown. It is just not nearly as common as some > would like to believe. It is easy to blame a shill than to come to > grips that lots of others with deep pockets like this stuff as well. When there are 3-4 bidders with 0-1 feedback that jump in and nudge the price up in several increments to exhaust the max bid of the present winner, that's not the same as someone with dozens of hundreds of feedback _on similar items_ coming in with one bid that blows past any competition. I've been outbid by lots of folks with deeper pockets than mine (there are plenty of them out there). I've also been seen clear evidence of bid-rigging on auctions I was bidding on. When I see it, I'm done. More than one of those auctions has been "won" by the 12-hour-old account with zero feedback. I presume the item then gets relisted. I wouldn't know. I'm done with that seller. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 30 14:31:38 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 15:31:38 -0400 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA4E59A.6010403@neurotica.com> On 9/30/10 2:18 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> So leave the auction open in a browser tab until it ends. When > > DOens't that imply yo uhave a machine left running all the time, probably > connected to the internet all the time? That's a luxury that not all of > us have. I guess I just don't get that. >> sellers (I'm speaking here as a frequent seller) see that there's lots >> of interest in an item, they're less likely to relist an item at a lower >> price...and FAR less likely to edit an existing listing to raise the >> starting price. > > Hang on a second. If you list something with a starting bid of, say, $50 > and you notice that plenty of people are wathcing the item and yet nobody > bids on it, doesnt; this suggest your starting bid is too high? Maybe. But if NOBODY is watching it, it very clearly says either nobody is interested in that particular item, or (if I know it's an item of interest) the starting bid is too high. Watchers indicate SOME level of interest. Sellers will usually drop prices if there is NO interest, and will be more reluctant to drop prices (and just try it again) if there is SOME interest. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 30 14:35:36 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 15:35:36 -0400 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: <4CA4076B.6070300@bitsavers.org> <20100930041123.BD67AA580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4CA4BDF2.2060303@bitsavers.org> <926FBEE0BAF5415B8FA3E207BA3E9542@dell8300> Message-ID: <4CA4E688.8070409@neurotica.com> On 9/30/10 3:30 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Ebay does kick shills off when they catch >> them - they just do not advertise an account cancellation as "Caught >> Shilling". "Administrative Cancellation" sounds more sterile but safe >> for business. > > Sure... when they catch them. One thing they do specifically check for is bids for an item coming from the same IP address that the listing was initiated from, or from the same browser (via cookies). This obviously will result in occasional false positives. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 14:48:37 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 15:48:37 -0400 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: <4CA4076B.6070300@bitsavers.org> <20100930041123.BD67AA580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4CA4BDF2.2060303@bitsavers.org> <926FBEE0BAF5415B8FA3E207BA3E9542@dell8300> Message-ID: > Yes. ?The difference is that when everyone is in the same room, a > veteran bidder can spot signs, recognize familiar faces, etc. ?This is > not as easy with a virtual auction. Another veteran bidder can also bid very discretely - and I am not talking about the winks and noserubs that work in televisionland. Still another bidder can get a friend to do the bidding (completely legal and ethical) using his original paddle. Yet another bidder can move around the room between bids, and get lost in the crowd. In a real live auction with serious players, it can be very difficult to see who you may be up against. The one thing that I will praise EBay for (and being how much I hate Ebay, that is saying something) - at least the auctioneer is impartial. Just a few weeks ago I was at a radio estate auction where the auctioneer missed a number of my bids, and banged the gavel a bit too quickly for his buddies benefit. > When there are 3-4 bidders with 0-1 feedback that jump in and nudge > the price up in several increments to exhaust the max bid of the > present winner, that's not the same as someone with dozens of hundreds > of feedback _on similar items_ coming in with one bid that blows past > any competition. Lets be honest - how often does that really happen? We have all seen it once or twice, or maybe a bunch of times if you live on Ebay, but what percentage of the auctions are really like that? This is the "overblown" aspect I mentioned - for every auction you describe with these potential shills, there are *thousands* that are normal. One more thing - experienced shills do not register a day before their target auctions, but hang around for weeks before. Inexperienced shills will register right before an auction - and they are the ones that get caught. -- Will From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 14:50:02 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 20:50:02 +0100 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 30 September 2010 20:01, Tony Duell wrote: > And if my mousebutton fails at a time when I need to get something done > _THEN_. I would rather have to kludge up a repalcement for a microswitch > -- if necessary 2 bits of wire that I could touch together -- than a > replacement for a custom IC. You use a mouse? I'd have thought that was a bit modern for you, Tony! :?) -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Sep 30 14:50:42 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 15:50:42 -0400 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS References: <4CA4076B.6070300@bitsavers.org><20100930041123.BD67AA580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu><4CA4BDF2.2060303@bitsavers.org><926FBEE0BAF5415B8FA3E207BA3E9542@dell8300> Message-ID: <75764A970A764C99AE4A7A6F161276E6@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 3:11 PM Subject: Re: Latest eBay seller BS >> The only thing I would like to see is a way of booting sellers using >> shills. > > Every auction since some ancient Greek wanted the enhance the price of > his sheep has had shills. Ebay does kick shills off when they catch > them - they just do not advertise an account cancellation as "Caught > Shilling". "Administrative Cancellation" sounds more sterile but safe > for business. > > And as well seasoned veteran, my observation is that the whole shill > concern is quite overblown. It is just not nearly as common as some > would like to believe. It is easy to blame a shill than to come to > grips that lots of others with deep pockets like this stuff as well. > > -- > Will I don't bid on rarities against people with deep pockets, I use ebay for relatively common things I need to fix/finish some project or other. When I bid on something like a junker Pentium laptop I wanted for parts that nobody else has bid on 2 days left in the auction and 5 minutes later some recent account with under 5 feedback incrementally bids until they top my bid something is fishy. Every time I seen an auction for some common item going for 5x what it should there is some new account with under 5 feedback doing the same crap to every bidder (and usually there are 2 new accounts with low feedback fighting over it). Sure you can say its some new people on ebay in a bidding war, but this isn't 2001 anymore and that just doesn't happen very often. Then a week later the same item/picture is relisted hoping for somebody to bid on it and get it cheaper then the last final fake price. There are usually enough real bidders to drive up prices for very uncommon stuff so shilling isn't needed. The low end stuff is flooded with cheap BIN auctions. Seems like larger (too big to ship from Asia cheaply) commodity stuff is where sellers want to double their profit and do shilling. From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 14:54:43 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 20:54:43 +0100 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 30 September 2010 20:21, Tony Duell wrote: >> But more generally, I think I am seeing an interesting trend which I >> find positive: the gradual removal of mechanical, moving parts from >> PCs (and Macs). Spinning HDDs are gradually being replaced by SSDs. > > Hmm... I see this often as a negative trend in that I can fix the > mechanical bits (other than HDDs) and can't fix custom silicon. It may > be cheaper to replace, but when you have a deadline looming, the ability > ot get the machine workign again is very useful... Overall, I'd agree. For mass-market consumer kit, I think it might be good. Cheaper, faster computers are a good thing. Also, for the random punter, *simpler* computers are a good thing. >> The last hold-out is the cooling fan and they are a real point of >> weakness, as they clog up with dust and cause the system to fail. I >> hope to see some improved, solid-state cooling mechanisms come along > > How are these supposed to work (without violating the 2nd law)? Well, one idea I am surprised I have not seen exploited in PCs, that I have already seen in hifi, is large external passive heatsinks, outside the case. I presume they're connected by heatpipes or something. Gets the heat outside the box, in the open air, where the user can easily clean the fins with a duster, and where it will be carried away by open-air circulation. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 14:58:11 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 15:58:11 -0400 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Well, one idea I am surprised I have not seen exploited in PCs, that I > have already seen in hifi, is large external passive heatsinks, > outside the case. I presume they're connected by heatpipes or > something. Try pricing a big-ass hunk of extruded heatsink some day. -- Will From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 15:21:07 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 16:21:07 -0400 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: <4CA4076B.6070300@bitsavers.org> <20100930041123.BD67AA580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4CA4BDF2.2060303@bitsavers.org> <926FBEE0BAF5415B8FA3E207BA3E9542@dell8300> Message-ID: On 9/30/10, William Donzelli wrote: >> Yes. The difference is that when everyone is in the same room, a >> veteran bidder can spot signs, recognize familiar faces, etc. >> > In a real live auction with serious players, it can be very difficult > to see who you may be up against. It can be, but my assertion is merely that it's more difficult than that with a virtual auction. There, the only thing you have is IP addresses and whatever eBay cares to let you know about the bidders (less now, with their obscuration policies) > The one thing that I will praise EBay for (and being how much I hate > Ebay, that is saying something) - at least the auctioneer is > impartial. Just a few weeks ago I was at a radio estate auction where > the auctioneer missed a number of my bids, and banged the gavel a bit > too quickly for his buddies benefit. That's certainly true. I have been to numerous estate auctions, and the auctioneer has a lot of ability to control the flow of things, push to get the bids up, direct the win at a particular bidder, etc. >> When there are 3-4 bidders with 0-1 feedback that jump in and nudge >> the price up in several increments to exhaust the max bid of the >> present winner, that's not the same as someone with dozens of hundreds >> of feedback _on similar items_ coming in with one bid that blows past >> any competition. > > Lets be honest - how often does that really happen? We have all seen > it once or twice, or maybe a bunch of times if you live on Ebay, but > what percentage of the auctions are really like that? Of all the auctions of all time everywhere? Probably pretty few. Of the items I've personally bid on? More than merely "a bunch of times". I don't bid on dozens of things a month - my habits are far more selective (my eBay feedback count is under 100 and I had an account on "AuctionWeb" before it was eBay). Very specifically, I rarely bid on anything that isn't classic computer related, and much more often than other products, on 12-bit DEC gear. > This is the "overblown" aspect I mentioned - for every auction you > describe with these potential shills, there are *thousands* that are > normal. Across all of eBay, almost certainly. I'm not claiming that all of eBay sucks for everyone equally. I'm merely pointing things that I have personally experienced (vs repeating stories of others) and found unpleasant enough to impact my use of their services. > One more thing - experienced shills do not register a day before their > target auctions, but hang around for weeks before. Inexperienced > shills will register right before an auction - and they are the ones > that get caught. No argument there. If I can spot them, they aren't that sophisticated. -ethan From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Sep 30 15:22:09 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 16:22:09 -0400 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse References: Message-ID: It would be kind of a pain to get a heat pipe from the power supply, RAM, multiple video cards, southbridge, and CPU to a common external heatsink without going to liquid cooling and all the problems you have with that. There are just too many internal components these days that need cooled. Even the heat from a spinning DVD/Burner drive or hard disk will heat up the interior of a PC case over time and cause problems if not vented with forced air. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 3:58 PM Subject: Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse >> Well, one idea I am surprised I have not seen exploited in PCs, that I >> have already seen in hifi, is large external passive heatsinks, >> outside the case. I presume they're connected by heatpipes or >> something. > > Try pricing a big-ass hunk of extruded heatsink some day. > > -- > Will From spc at conman.org Thu Sep 30 15:33:58 2010 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 16:33:58 -0400 Subject: IP Fragments - Worth doing, testing strategies? In-Reply-To: <4CA4E117.9050908@brutman.com> References: <4CA3E6E5.3000409@brutman.com> <201009300442.o8U4g1kB091673@lots.reanimators.org> <4CA4E117.9050908@brutman.com> Message-ID: <20100930203358.GC26418@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Michael B. Brutman once stated: > > Correct, but actually in the case of large UDP packets the source > machine sends the fragments. TCP is too dang smart and tries all of the > path MTU discovery tricks, but UDP doesn't have that luxury. Which is > great because it does give me an easy way to test - but only with UDP. > > I put the gateway in the middle of the machines to try to force TCP > fragments. I may have to get more perverse and use a SLIP connection to > the DOS machine, which has a much smaller MTU. But I suspect that the > TCP path length discovery will get in the way again. (I'm really going > to have to try to turn all of that off.) While I'm familiar wih IP, I haven't tried implementing it, but, what if you were to set an MTU size of around 50 bytes? The IP header (sans options) is 20 bytes, and the TCP header is another 20. I would think setting the MTU to just above 40 might cause some fragmentation (I thought of suggesting an MTU of just above 20, but then you're testing for IP fragmentation, and not TCP fragmentation. I tend to do stupid stuff like that, but then again, I *was* hired to write testing code at my current job ... -spc (In thoery, IP should work with an MTU of 30 bytes, right?) From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 15:39:50 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 16:39:50 -0400 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA4F596.1060406@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Hang on a second. If you list something with a starting bid of, say, $50 > and you notice that plenty of people are wathcing the item and yet nobody > bids on it, doesnt; this suggest your starting bid is too high? Or they're all snipers. Peace... Sridhar From legalize at xmission.com Thu Sep 30 15:50:19 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 14:50:19 -0600 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 30 Sep 2010 15:11:22 -0400. Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > And as well seasoned veteran, my observation is that the whole shill > concern is quite overblown. It is just not nearly as common as some > would like to believe. It is easy to blame a shill than to come to > grips that lots of others with deep pockets like this stuff as well. Ditto. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Thu Sep 30 15:51:38 2010 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 15:51:38 -0500 Subject: IP Fragments - Worth doing, testing strategies? In-Reply-To: <20100930203358.GC26418@brevard.conman.org> References: <4CA3E6E5.3000409@brutman.com> <201009300442.o8U4g1kB091673@lots.reanimators.org> <4CA4E117.9050908@brutman.com> <20100930203358.GC26418@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <4CA4F85A.2070909@brutman.com> Sean Conner wrote: > While I'm familiar wih IP, I haven't tried implementing it, but, what if > you were to set an MTU size of around 50 bytes? The IP header (sans > options) is 20 bytes, and the TCP header is another 20. I would think > setting the MTU to just above 40 might cause some fragmentation (I thought > of suggesting an MTU of just above 20, but then you're testing for IP > fragmentation, and not TCP fragmentation. > > I tend to do stupid stuff like that, but then again, I *was* hired to > write testing code at my current job ... > > -spc (In thoery, IP should work with an MTU of 30 bytes, right?) The IP header is 20 bytes without any IP header options, and the TCP header is another 20 bytes without any TCP header options. My implementation has room for 10 fragments per packet (configurable with a #define), which is great for a 'normal' MTU size. If I tested with a ridiculously small MTU it would wind up throwing a lot of things away, but many implementations do the same thing. My fragment problem is mostly on the source side - the source machines are too clever about trying to probe and eliminate fragments. Linux has also been 'interesting' as a gateway. Some kernel versions allow TCP fragments through even though they have bad checksums. I throw away any packet with a bad checksum. Mixing NAT (Network Address Translation) and fragments was problematic in my setup too - I think that Linux was completely screwing up the payload checksums for TCP. Mike From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 30 15:57:15 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 13:57:15 -0700 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: <4CA4F596.1060406@gmail.com> References: , <4CA4F596.1060406@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CA4973B.29467.10F61B1@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Sep 2010 at 16:39, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > Hang on a second. If you list something with a starting bid of, say, > > $50 and you notice that plenty of people are wathcing the item and > > yet nobody bids on it, doesnt; this suggest your starting bid is too > > high? > > Or they're all snipers. Yup, there are some sections where sniping seems to be de-facto order (e.g. oriental rugs). As much as many people hate the practice, I see no difference between sniping and sealed-bid auctions. Just bid what you're prepared to pay. --Chuck From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Sep 30 15:57:55 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 21:57:55 +0100 Subject: IP Fragments - Worth doing, testing strategies? In-Reply-To: <20100930203358.GC26418@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: Sean Conner [spc at conman.org] wrote: > While I'm familiar wih IP, I haven't tried implementing it, > but, what if you were to set an MTU size of around 50 bytes? There's a requirement that you be able to support 68 byte packets (iirc). But his problem is almost certainly that some form of MTU discovery is in use and it's thwarting his testing. It should be possible to overcome that either by disabling it (which probably does mean hacking the registry, using a VM might make this less risky) or by refusing to respond to whatever style of packets the source uses to probe (or even faking a "godd" response). Antonio From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 30 16:03:45 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 17:03:45 -0400 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: <4CA4973B.29467.10F61B1@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CA4F596.1060406@gmail.com> <4CA4973B.29467.10F61B1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CA4FB31.1070607@neurotica.com> On 9/30/10 4:57 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> Hang on a second. If you list something with a starting bid of, say, >>> $50 and you notice that plenty of people are wathcing the item and >>> yet nobody bids on it, doesnt; this suggest your starting bid is too >>> high? >> >> Or they're all snipers. > > Yup, there are some sections where sniping seems to be de-facto order > (e.g. oriental rugs). > > As much as many people hate the practice, I see no difference between > sniping and sealed-bid auctions. Just bid what you're prepared to > pay. ...but if you want to pay LESS, snipe. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From doc at vaxen.net Thu Sep 30 16:06:50 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 16:06:50 -0500 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> <4CA4AEDB.2060802@vaxen.net> <4CA4CAEF.30001@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CA4FBEA.8080107@vaxen.net> On 9/30/10 2:17 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> The correction's appreciated - I knew it was wrong, but was being lazy in >> looking up the right terminology :-) > > The term "X Windows", as "improper" as it is, is very widely used and > understood. So is "DB9". Doc From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 30 16:08:18 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 14:08:18 -0700 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: <4CA4076B.6070300@bitsavers.org>, , Message-ID: <4CA499D2.11549.1197EAE@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Sep 2010 at 15:48, William Donzelli wrote: > The one thing that I will praise EBay for (and being how much I hate > Ebay, that is saying something) - at least the auctioneer is > impartial. Just a few weeks ago I was at a radio estate auction where > the auctioneer missed a number of my bids, and banged the gavel a bit > too quickly for his buddies benefit. Local government real-estate auctions sometimes work like this. Although the time and place of the auction is publicized, you often have to have sharp eyes to spot a small group of what appears to be lawyers having a friendly and quiet chat on the courthouse steps... --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Sep 30 16:12:00 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 14:12:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4CA4FBEA.8080107@vaxen.net> References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> <4CA4AEDB.2060802@vaxen.net> <4CA4CAEF.30001@gmail.com> <4CA4FBEA.8080107@vaxen.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Sep 2010, Doc Shipley wrote: > On 9/30/10 2:17 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> The correction's appreciated - I knew it was wrong, but was being lazy in >>> looking up the right terminology :-) >> >> The term "X Windows", as "improper" as it is, is very widely used and >> understood. > > So is "DB9". > > Yeah, but only HITLER would use that! *gd&r* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 30 16:14:23 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 14:14:23 -0700 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: <4CA4FB31.1070607@neurotica.com> References: , <4CA4973B.29467.10F61B1@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA4FB31.1070607@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CA49B3F.22553.11F0FAB@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Sep 2010 at 17:03, Dave McGuire wrote: > ...but if you want to pay LESS, snipe. That was what I implied by "bid". A snipe is nothing more than a bid that happens a short time before closing. There are still some online auctions that extend the bidding every time a bid is received (uBid, ISTR. I can't recall how OnSale worked). Those can be very frustrating. You think you've gotten something and the auction gets extended again and again... --Chuck From doc at vaxen.net Thu Sep 30 16:20:05 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 16:20:05 -0500 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: <4CA49B3F.22553.11F0FAB@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CA4973B.29467.10F61B1@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA4FB31.1070607@neurotica.com> <4CA49B3F.22553.11F0FAB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CA4FF05.8090104@vaxen.net> On 9/30/10 4:14 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 30 Sep 2010 at 17:03, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> ...but if you want to pay LESS, snipe. > > That was what I implied by "bid". A snipe is nothing more than a bid > that happens a short time before closing. > > There are still some online auctions that extend the bidding every > time a bid is received (uBid, ISTR. I can't recall how OnSale > worked). Those can be very frustrating. You think you've gotten > something and the auction gets extended again and again... One of my friends always says "You can either work with what you got, or not." I have a LOT of stuff, computer stuff and otherwise, that I wouldn't have if Ebay didn't exist. It's never perfect and sometimes it's infuriating, but it does get the job done. Doc From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 30 16:21:37 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 14:21:37 -0700 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <4CA49CF1.787.125AFD6@cclist.sydex.com> William Donzelli writes: > And as well seasoned veteran, my observation is that the whole shill > concern is quite overblown. It is just not nearly as common as some > would like to believe. It is easy to blame a shill than to come to > grips that lots of others with deep pockets like this stuff as well. I'm acquainted with a retired patent attorney who collects brass musical instruments. When he moved from Idaho to Texas a few years ago, his collection went in 11 moving vans. When he spots something that he likes, he places a bid and it's like a dog marking its territory. Since he has more money than time, he'll outbid anyone who tries to bid against him. No shill, he--just very deep pockets. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Thu Sep 30 16:28:50 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 15:28:50 -0600 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 30 Sep 2010 14:14:23 -0700. <4CA49B3F.22553.11F0FAB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4CA49B3F.22553.11F0FAB at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 30 Sep 2010 at 17:03, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > ...but if you want to pay LESS, snipe. > > That was what I implied by "bid". A snipe is nothing more than a bid > that happens a short time before closing. ...on an auction system that doesn't extend the closing time. Other on-line auction sites extend the closing time until bids stop coming. Sniping only works on ebay because bidding activity doesn't move the closing time. Its as if you were at an in-person auction and someone bid right between the "going" and "gone" and the auctioneer pointed to that last bidder and said "sold!" to that last bidder without giving anyone else a chance to bid. This is what feels off about sniping compared to what most people expect in an auction. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Thu Sep 30 16:46:26 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 14:46:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <938243.26137.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> The problem is there are people that don't understand the proxy bidding process on eBay and therefore circumvent it by placing their own incremental bids. Once they get to wherever they feel like the max they're willing to pay is, they quit bidding period. I feel like most of these bidders aren't really serious, so why give them the opportunity to run the bid up for you? Bid early, bid often is a bad strategy for eBay. Bidding at the last possible second will save you money. ________________________________ From: Richard To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ; Chuck Guzis Sent: Thu, September 30, 2010 4:28:50 PM Subject: Re: Latest eBay seller BS In article <4CA49B3F.22553.11F0FAB at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 30 Sep 2010 at 17:03, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > ...but if you want to pay LESS, snipe. > > That was what I implied by "bid". A snipe is nothing more than a bid > that happens a short time before closing. ...on an auction system that doesn't extend the closing time. Other on-line auction sites extend the closing time until bids stop coming. Sniping only works on ebay because bidding activity doesn't move the closing time. Its as if you were at an in-person auction and someone bid right between the "going" and "gone" and the auctioneer pointed to that last bidder and said "sold!" to that last bidder without giving anyone else a chance to bid. This is what feels off about sniping compared to what most people expect in an auction. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 17:03:16 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 18:03:16 -0400 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: <4CA4076B.6070300@bitsavers.org> <20100930041123.BD67AA580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4CA4BDF2.2060303@bitsavers.org> <926FBEE0BAF5415B8FA3E207BA3E9542@dell8300> Message-ID: > It can be, but my assertion is merely that it's more difficult than > that with a virtual auction. ?There, the only thing you have is IP > addresses and whatever eBay cares to let you know about the bidders > (less now, with their obscuration policies) The Ebay police have much more than just IP address - they have registration info and access to all sorts of databases we mortals do not. > That's certainly true. ?I have been to numerous estate auctions, and > the auctioneer has a lot of ability to control the flow of things, > push to get the bids up, direct the win at a particular bidder, etc. And pulling bids out of thin air. > Of all the auctions of all time everywhere? ?Probably pretty few. ?Of > the items I've personally bid on? ?More than merely "a bunch of > times". Give me some estimated percentages. > Across all of eBay, almost certainly. ?I'm not claiming that all of > eBay sucks for everyone equally. ?I'm merely pointing things that I > have personally experienced (vs repeating stories of others) and found > unpleasant enough to impact my use of their services. Yes, unpleasant experiences tend to get exaggerated, and weigh far more than they really are. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 17:05:54 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 18:05:54 -0400 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: <4CA4FF05.8090104@vaxen.net> References: <4CA4973B.29467.10F61B1@cclist.sydex.com> <4CA4FB31.1070607@neurotica.com> <4CA49B3F.22553.11F0FAB@cclist.sydex.com> <4CA4FF05.8090104@vaxen.net> Message-ID: > It's never perfect and sometimes it's infuriating, > but it does get the job done. Exactly. Ebay is just as imperfect and infuriating as any live auction, flea market, or garage sale. Maybe even less infuriating than dealing with some surplus dealers. -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Thu Sep 30 17:06:01 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 16:06:01 -0600 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 30 Sep 2010 14:46:26 -0700. <938243.26137.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Who appointed you god of ebay bidding? If you don't like the way other people bid on ebay, then don't use it. That goes for sniping and non-sniping bidding alike. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 17:09:37 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 18:09:37 -0400 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: <4CA49B3F.22553.11F0FAB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Its as if you were at an in-person auction and someone bid right > between the "going" and "gone" and the auctioneer pointed to that last > bidder and said "sold!" to that last bidder without giving anyone else > a chance to bid. ?This is what feels off about sniping compared to > what most people expect in an auction. In real live auctions, such dramatic bidding almost never happens. There are plenty of late bidders, but they chime in before the whole "going" bit starts. So I can see why Ebay has a fixed time limit. And I like it this way - I know when my auctions are ending, and can plan my life and business accordingly. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 17:13:54 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 18:13:54 -0400 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4CA4FBEA.8080107@vaxen.net> References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> <4CA4AEDB.2060802@vaxen.net> <4CA4CAEF.30001@gmail.com> <4CA4FBEA.8080107@vaxen.net> Message-ID: > ?So is "DB9". And "VMS" is incorrect as well. It is "OpenVMS". Nitpicker, start your engines. -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Thu Sep 30 17:15:10 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 16:15:10 -0600 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 30 Sep 2010 18:09:37 -0400. Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > So I can see why Ebay has a fixed time limit. And I like it this way - > I know when my auctions are ending, and can plan my life and business > accordingly. There are plusses and minuses to both kinds of system (fixed ending date and sliding end date). However, most of the buyers on ebay are the general public and they have this "going going gone!" mental image of auctions. That mental image doesn't match ebay's exact auctioning process, which is why sniping leaves a bad taste in most people's mouths. Ironically, its because people get burnt on sniping that they bid early and "drive up the price" on the snipers. To the snipers that don't like those "incremental bidders", I say: tough. You're getting that behavior from people as a response to your sniping, so just quit griping. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Sep 30 17:20:50 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 15:20:50 -0700 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> <4CA4AEDB.2060802@vaxen.net> <4CA4CAEF.30001@gmail.com> <4CA4FBEA.8080107@vaxen.net> Message-ID: From: William Donzelli Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 3:14 PM >> So is "DB9". > And "VMS" is incorrect as well. It is "OpenVMS". Nitpicker, start your > engines. Depends on timeframe. "OpenVMS" is incorrect for pre-Alpha-processor releases of the VMS operating system. The incorrectness of "X Windows" or "DB9" does not depend on when it is used. Picky enough? :-) Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 30 17:22:19 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 18:22:19 -0400 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> <4CA4AEDB.2060802@vaxen.net> <4CA4CAEF.30001@gmail.com> <4CA4FBEA.8080107@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4CA50D9B.9010206@neurotica.com> On 9/30/10 6:13 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> So is "DB9". > > And "VMS" is incorrect as well. It is "OpenVMS". Some people would debate that. ;) "The 'Open' in 'OpenVMS' is silent." That era was so very strange. Every vendor prepending "Open" to the names of proprietary products, usually the ones that were the LEAST "open". Too weird. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 17:27:01 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 15:27:01 -0700 Subject: Ok, gotta show this... Message-ID: My latest acquisition (thank you, Stan!). An HP 3000/935 with several drives (all working). Photo links below. http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5152529&l=4dfb3c29ff&id=734972117 http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5152533&l=3e032379a3&id=734972117 I'm so thrilled! Mark From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 17:27:48 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 18:27:48 -0400 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >?However, most of the buyers on ebay are > the general public and they have this "going going gone!" mental image > of auctions. ?That mental image doesn't match ebay's exact auctioning > process, which is why sniping leaves a bad taste in most people's > mouths. I think these days most of the bidders that matter snipe (manually or with a service) or do not care. Four or five years ago, I used to time my auctions so that they would end when people are likely to be home for the evening or in front of their computer at work. I found there were two sweet spots during the weekdays - 2-3 PM and 9:30-11 PM EST. These would cover the US quite nicely. There was a real difference in hammer prices if I strayed out of these two spots for whatever various reasons. This is no longer the case. There are no more real sweet spots, and hammer prices are not so dependent on timing, yet the last minute bids still pile up. This is telling me that far more people snipe today than five years ago. And, as an informal survey in my head, it seems that nearly all of my friends snipe, including the ones that are pretty low key. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 30 17:31:51 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 18:31:51 -0400 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA50FD7.1080402@neurotica.com> On 9/30/10 5:28 PM, Richard wrote: > Its as if you were at an in-person auction and someone bid right > between the "going" and "gone" and the auctioneer pointed to that last > bidder and said "sold!" to that last bidder without giving anyone else > a chance to bid. This is what feels off about sniping compared to > what most people expect in an auction. "What most people expect in an auction", I suspect, is pretty different from what it was fifteen years ago, due primarily to eBay. I am willing to bet that more transactions are conducted per year on eBay than have been conducted at traditional auctions across the entirety of recorded history. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From g at kurico.com Thu Sep 30 17:31:24 2010 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 17:31:24 -0500 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA50FBC.2000905@kurico.com> On 9/30/10 5:27 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Four or five years ago, I used to time my auctions so that they would > end when people are likely to be home for the evening or in front of > their computer at work. I found there were two sweet spots during the > weekdays - 2-3 PM and 9:30-11 PM EST. These would cover the US quite > nicely. There was a real difference in hammer prices if I strayed out > of these two spots for whatever various reasons. This is no longer the > case. There are no more real sweet spots, and hammer prices are not so > dependent on timing, yet the last minute bids still pile up. This is > telling me that far more people snipe today than five years ago. > > And, as an informal survey in my head, it seems that nearly all of my > friends snipe, including the ones that are pretty low key. > Don't forget the "smartphone" effect as well. With an iphone (or other) and a web browser or dedicated app, you don't have to be tied to your computer or a network (other than cellular) anymore. Folks can literally bid from almost anywhere now. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 17:32:04 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 18:32:04 -0400 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> <4CA4AEDB.2060802@vaxen.net> <4CA4CAEF.30001@gmail.com> <4CA4FBEA.8080107@vaxen.net> Message-ID: > Depends on timeframe. ?"OpenVMS" is incorrect for pre-Alpha-processor > releases of the VMS operating system. Certainly you mean VAX-11/VMS or VAX/VMS for those early machines, correct? Don't make me filibuster this list by posting the MIL-STD for D shell connectors. -- Will From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 30 17:33:21 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 15:33:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Sep 2010, Richard wrote: > Who appointed you god of ebay bidding? If you don't like the way > other people bid on ebay, then don't use it. That goes for sniping > and non-sniping bidding alike. LOL! As long as the problem isn't shill bidding an the like I couldn't agree more. Sniping is basically built into the system. If I can't be online when it ends to snipe an auction I typically won't bid. Right now I have a real problem, an auction with a part I need badly ends at 6:15am on Saturday. There is no way I'm getting up that early, do I bid, or wait for another to show up... Yes, I know there are services and applications that will do the sniping for me, but I choose not to use them, I save money that way since I win fewer auctions! :-) Zane From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Sep 30 17:38:47 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 18:38:47 -0400 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201009301838.47738.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 30 September 2010, Richard wrote: > To the snipers that don't like those "incremental bidders", I say: > tough. You're getting that behavior from people as a response to > your sniping, so just quit griping. I think you missed the point. Incremental bidders are a problem for people who *don't* snipe. If you put in a snipe bid, people don't get a chance to incrementally bid against you, and you tend to get the item for a lower price than if they had sniped or put in their max bid price. Sniping is only a problem for those who haven't figured out how to make ebay bidding work for them. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From g at kurico.com Thu Sep 30 17:40:06 2010 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 17:40:06 -0500 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA511C6.20305@kurico.com> On 9/30/10 5:33 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Sniping is basically built into the system. > Note that "sniping" (or at least a form of it) isn't strictly an ebay phenomenon. When I was attending many live auctions in days of yore, I would employ a similar strategy, let the other folks determine a baseline for your bid and wait for most of the other bidders to drop out. Someone mentioned bidding at "going", I would do exactly that. Obviously the main difference is that the bidding would then continue, but it's a similar notion. Silent auctions also frequently work this way, it's usually better to not drive the price up yourself by continuously bidding against someone else, wait until it gets close to the end and then engage in battle. From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Thu Sep 30 17:41:24 2010 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 17:41:24 -0500 Subject: SPSS for Windows Message-ID: I'm cleaning out the closet and found my V6.1 SPSS for Windows (24 Jan 1995) on eight 3.5" floppy disks "Graduate Pack for student home use only", purchased in 1996. Anyone want it for $5 plus postage from zip 65775? From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 17:54:25 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 18:54:25 -0400 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> <4CA4AEDB.2060802@vaxen.net> <4CA4CAEF.30001@gmail.com> <4CA4FBEA.8080107@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4CA51521.30208@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> So is "DB9". > > And "VMS" is incorrect as well. It is "OpenVMS". Nitpicker, start your engines. Doesn't that only apply to recent versions? Peace... Sridhar From legalize at xmission.com Thu Sep 30 18:05:40 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 17:05:40 -0600 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 30 Sep 2010 18:38:47 -0400. <201009301838.47738.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: In article <201009301838.47738.pat at computer-refuge.org>, Patrick Finnegan writes: > I think you missed the point. Nope. The sniper was complaining that incremental bidders were driving up the price and he wasn't getting his "good deal" by sniping. I say: tough. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From marvin at west.net Thu Sep 30 18:06:26 2010 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 16:06:26 -0700 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA517F2.1050200@west.net> > Try pricing a big-ass hunk of extruded heatsink some day. > > -- > Will I'm sure this somehow relates to the Apple Mouse, but it will need to be explained to me so I can understand. I just sold 30# of aluminum heatsink approx 8" wide x 4" high x 5' long for $40.00. 9 other identical pieces were scrapped out for about $15.00 each. My understanding is that they were in the $100.00 + catagory when new. Marvin From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 17:59:33 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 19:59:33 -0300 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS References: Message-ID: <09d001cb60f3$538dc330$0600000a@portajara> >And, as an informal survey in my head, it seems that nearly all of my >friends snipe, including the ones that are pretty low key. AFAIK, this is the only way to get cheap things :) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 18:23:07 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 19:23:07 -0400 Subject: Dealing with heat Message-ID: > I just sold 30# of aluminum heatsink approx 8" wide x 4" high x 5' long for > $40.00. 9 other identical pieces were scrapped out for about $15.00 each. My > understanding is that they were in the $100.00 + catagory when new. And that sounds like it was for stock extrusions. If you add all sorts of machining so the heatsink actually touches the processor, you can add a bunch more on to the price. Fans are cheap and effective. And the last place *anyone* wants to go is liquid cooling. -- Will From alexeyt at freeshell.org Thu Sep 30 20:49:35 2010 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 01:49:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Sep 2010, Liam Proven wrote: > Mind you, come to that, as ordinary user PCs migrate to being > multi-touch-operated slates, it could be that mice will disappear > altogether. Keyboards too, when the speech recognition gets good > enough. I know many, many people that can type faster than they can talk. And then there's programming. When every character matters, and many of them are punctuation, speech recoginition (and speech for that matter) falls flat on its face. It will never be faster to pronounce: print join(',', map $_->(), @$closures), "\n" for 1..$num; than it is to type it. And that's relatively readable; perl lets you code with >50% punctuation... When I see photos of the 'keyboardless' ipad, more often than not there's a virtual keyboard taking up half of that very expensive screen... I giggle and keep on typing :-) Alexey From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 30 21:03:04 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 19:03:04 -0700 Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4CA4DEE8.3896.2275B37@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Oct 2010 at 1:49, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > I know many, many people that can type faster than they can talk. And > then there's programming. When every character matters, and many of > them are punctuation, speech recoginition (and speech for that matter) > falls flat on its face. When Lernaut & Hauspie started distributing their text-to-speech application via MSDN, I installed it on Windows and used to it read back some of my email. I couldn't stand it. It was then that I realized exactly how much faster reading was than listening. --Chuck From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 21:28:47 2010 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 22:28:47 -0400 Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 21:49, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > I know many, many people that can type faster than they can talk. And then > there's programming. When every character matters, and many of them are > punctuation, speech recoginition (and speech for that matter) falls flat on > its face. It will never be faster to pronounce: > > print join(',', map $_->(), @$closures), "\n" for 1..$num; > > than it is to type it. And that's relatively readable; perl lets you code > with >50% punctuation... Of course, programming languages these days are designed for typing, with plenty of special characters to indicate common syntactic elements. Try writing code on a typical smartphone qwerty keyboard; it's a pain because the special characters, seldom used in text messaging are hard to get to (sometimes only via menu). Example: the Kindle... Thus, programming using voice recognition should have a language syntax adapted to it, and likely be very annoying to type. Perhaps COBOL will see a resurrection ($deity save us all)! Perhaps a new language can use non-speech vocalisations as syntax elements. "Ummmm.." to delimit arguments to functions. A cough to terminate statements. Clicking the tongue to delimit literals! print umm... result umm... a umm.. b umm... d! Programmer's cubicles will become very noisy places! Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 21:27:50 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 22:27:50 -0400 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA54726.5000800@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > In article<201009301838.47738.pat at computer-refuge.org>, > Patrick Finnegan writes: > >> I think you missed the point. > > Nope. > > The sniper was complaining that incremental bidders were driving up > the price and he wasn't getting his "good deal" by sniping. I say: > tough. My argument to that is that he's driving the price up for the sniper and getting nothing in return. It's just plain stupid. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 21:27:50 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 22:27:50 -0400 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA54726.5000800@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > In article<201009301838.47738.pat at computer-refuge.org>, > Patrick Finnegan writes: > >> I think you missed the point. > > Nope. > > The sniper was complaining that incremental bidders were driving up > the price and he wasn't getting his "good deal" by sniping. I say: > tough. My argument to that is that he's driving the price up for the sniper and getting nothing in return. It's just plain stupid. Peace... Sridhar From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 22:15:18 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 22:15:18 -0500 Subject: They don't make them like they used to Message-ID: :-) http://cgi.ebay.com/Synertek-1978-SYM-Model-1-vintage-computer-ktm-2-/110593136725?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19bfdd5855 From legalize at xmission.com Thu Sep 30 22:32:23 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 21:32:23 -0600 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 30 Sep 2010 19:59:33 -0300. <09d001cb60f3$538dc330$0600000a@portajara> Message-ID: In article <09d001cb60f3$538dc330$0600000a at portajara>, "Alexandre Souza - Listas" writes: > AFAIK, this is the only way to get cheap things :) Nope. I've gotten plenty of things cheap without sniping. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From evan at snarc.net Thu Sep 30 22:41:46 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 23:41:46 -0400 Subject: OT: Worth exhibiting at Maker Faire? In-Reply-To: <4C4CF83B.1050302@snarc.net> References: <4C4CF83B.1050302@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4CA5587A.2020008@snarc.net> > Hi all -- > > My club (MARCH) is scheduled to exhibit at the inaugural Maker Faire > NYC. I'm starting to have second thoughts because we don't "make" > anything, we just make old things work again. Who here has been to a > Maker Faire event, and if so, would a vintage computers exhibit be > well received by the audience? Update .... the event was GREAT and unlike anything I've been to ..... very glad that we went. Our booth was very well received. We showed a Pong machine, Altair, C-64 with Shredz64 (Guitar Hero), and networked C-64 gaming (Artillery Duel.) From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Thu Sep 30 23:10:45 2010 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 13:40:45 +0930 Subject: They don't make them like they used to In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1285906246.2292.5.camel@fubar.kaput.homeunix.org> On Thu, 2010-09-30 at 22:15 -0500, Brian Lanning wrote: > :-) > > http://cgi.ebay.com/Synertek-1978-SYM-Model-1-vintage-computer-ktm-2-/110593136725?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19bfdd5855 > Oh man, I'm turning green with envy already for whoever may get that... I've got a SYM-1, I rescued it from the soldering practice pile at TAFE. A KTM-2 would be really nice to go with it. :) Alexis From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 23:40:08 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 21:40:08 -0700 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: <09d001cb60f3$538dc330$0600000a@portajara> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 8:32 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article <09d001cb60f3$538dc330$0600000a at portajara>, > ? ?"Alexandre Souza - Listas" writes: > >> ? ? AFAIK, this is the only way to get cheap things :) > > Nope. > > I've gotten plenty of things cheap without sniping. Agreed. I've managed to find lots of bargains without sniping... especially in books. I've found a bunch of great, usually expensive books on compilers and AI for very little money. Mark From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 23:44:18 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 21:44:18 -0700 Subject: Another 935 shot... Message-ID: Ok, can't resist. I'm just so happy to have this machine! Mark http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5153811&l=e3d7fbce9f&id=734972117 http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5153808&l=e4aaef5843&id=734972117 From jws at jwsss.com Thu Sep 30 18:32:50 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 16:32:50 -0700 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA51E22.8010004@jwsss.com> On 9/30/2010 4:05 PM, Richard wrote:Yeah! On 9/30/2010 1:42 PM, Kent Rieger wrote: > FYI - so far so good. > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Stuart.R.Holland at sce.com > *To:* Kent Rieger > *Sent:* Thursday, September 30, 2010 3:24 PM > *Subject:* Re: Fw: Fw: GMCStars on z/OS 1.12 > > So far, no abends. It only has a couple of days of continuous running. > It never made it through a full day before, though. > > > Stuart Holland > (626) 302-7209 > PAX 27209 > In article<201009301838.47738.pat at computer-refuge.org>, > Patrick Finnegan writes: > >> I think you missed the point. > Nope. > > The sniper was complaining that incremental bidders were driving up > the price and he wasn't getting his "good deal" by sniping. I say: > tough. The gist of the thread was that the price was driven up if you put in your "snipe" bid and allowed it to be chewed on by squirrels. Increasing the bid on eBay requires two bidders, so if I leave out my bid till the end, both of us (or all of us) simply throw our cards on the table and the one with the highest bid wins. I don't care if it happens that way, but I do not care to have anyone make other bids knowing what I am willing to pay and that information is visible as bids are made with your maximum amount out there (as in not sniping). If a shill puts in a bid, then has another shill chew up the action to make it look interesting, that is unethical and illegal. I think some sellers think that makes the less skilled bidders want to jump in. Again sniping trumps that, as if they stop with a bid that is lower than I was willing to pay, tough. I agree with the others, I hate to see this and usually avoid items and sellers who have this activity if at all possible. It usually means other trouble post sale (non delivery, etc.) Jim From legalize at xmission.com Thu Sep 30 22:11:35 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 21:11:35 -0600 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 30 Sep 2010 22:27:50 -0400. <4CA54726.5000800@gmail.com> Message-ID: [Nit: can't we just post to the list, folks? Why do you need to cc: me a private copy?] In article <4CA54726.5000800 at gmail.com>, Sridhar Ayengar writes: > My argument to that is that he's driving the price up for the sniper and > getting nothing in return. It's just plain stupid. The whole point of sniping is that noone knows you're doing it. From the incrmental bidder's perspective, he's not "ruining it for the sniper" since there is, by definition, no way to know there's a sniper waiting until 5 seconds before close to bid. To the sniper I say: tough. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Sep 25 13:55:58 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 13:55:58 -0500 Subject: VCFMW Pics and Shirts Message-ID: It's been a week since VCFMW and now we've got some galleries to display! You can find them at vcfmw.org. I have video from the abortive uStream broadcast that I still need to chop up (it made a 2.8gb .flv file!) but will post as soon as I can. I'm not at all happy with the video or audio quality, so different methods will be employed next year. We still have a stock of shirts remaining. The design can be seen here: http://picasaweb.google.com/Silent700/VCFMW50OfficialGraphics#5512512730455260610 If anyone would like one, they are $15 incl. shipping in the US (talk to me if you're international.) Here are the sizes we have left (you can tell which we'll order more and less of next year :) Same yellow design on black or Navy-Blue Gildan pre-shrunk cotton shirts: Blue M: 2 Black M: 1 Black L: 11 Black XXL: 8 Blue XXL: 3 Blue XXXL: 2 Thanks and see you next year! -j