From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Jan 1 14:04:54 2010 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 14:04:54 -0600 Subject: sound player In-Reply-To: <6d6501090912171242i50e2cc90g3cb7b832d2ba5e20@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B212B34.6070003@hachti.de> <0B5EE3A3-01F7-4033-8194-979B038FFFEF@shiresoft.com> <6d6501090912142128s4198d947ydcccd57fd575fe9@mail.gmail.com> <6d6501090912171242i50e2cc90g3cb7b832d2ba5e20@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B3E5566.9010602@ubanproductions.com> While this doesn't have any classic content, it may be interesting to some. I'm working on modifying a Heath/Zenith wireless doorbell to play a sound effect other than the really bad "ding dong" or "Westminster" version of the same. The new sound effect will be the Cloister bell from the Doctor Who series. Patching into the doorbell circuitry to detect when it is playing its builtin sample is relatively easy. Coming up with a simple method of outputting my new sample is a bit trickier. As I recall, there were some specialized ICs out a few years back which would do just this sort of thing. I've also considered connecting a basic mp3 player. Other suggestions? Thanks and happy new year to all! --tom From pcw at mesanet.com Fri Jan 1 14:24:31 2010 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 12:24:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: sound player In-Reply-To: <4B3E5566.9010602@ubanproductions.com> References: <4B212B34.6070003@hachti.de> <0B5EE3A3-01F7-4033-8194-979B038FFFEF@shiresoft.com> <6d6501090912142128s4198d947ydcccd57fd575fe9@mail.gmail.com> <6d6501090912171242i50e2cc90g3cb7b832d2ba5e20@mail.gmail.com> <4B3E5566.9010602@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Jan 2010, Tom Uban wrote: > Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 14:04:54 -0600 > From: Tom Uban > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > ; > Subject: sound player > > While this doesn't have any classic content, it may be interesting > to some. > > I'm working on modifying a Heath/Zenith wireless doorbell to play > a sound effect other than the really bad "ding dong" or "Westminster" > version of the same. The new sound effect will be the Cloister bell > from the Doctor Who series. > > Patching into the doorbell circuitry to detect when it is playing > its builtin sample is relatively easy. Coming up with a simple method > of outputting my new sample is a bit trickier. As I recall, there were > some specialized ICs out a few years back which would do just this > sort of thing. I've also considered connecting a basic mp3 player. > > Other suggestions? > > Thanks and happy new year to all! > > --tom > What about stealing the chip out of one of those recordable greeting cards? Peter Wallace From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Fri Jan 1 14:32:28 2010 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 07:02:28 +1030 Subject: sound player In-Reply-To: <4B3E5566.9010602@ubanproductions.com> References: <4B212B34.6070003@hachti.de> <6d6501090912171242i50e2cc90g3cb7b832d2ba5e20@mail.gmail.com> <4B3E5566.9010602@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <201001020702.28621.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> On Sat, 2 Jan 2010 06:34:54 am Tom Uban wrote: > While this doesn't have any classic content, it may be interesting > to some. > > I'm working on modifying a Heath/Zenith wireless doorbell to play > a sound effect other than the really bad "ding dong" or "Westminster" > version of the same. The new sound effect will be the Cloister bell > from the Doctor Who series. > > Patching into the doorbell circuitry to detect when it is playing > its builtin sample is relatively easy. Coming up with a simple method > of outputting my new sample is a bit trickier. As I recall, there were > some specialized ICs out a few years back which would do just this > sort of thing. I've also considered connecting a basic mp3 player. > > Other suggestions? > > Thanks and happy new year to all! > > --tom > This is a nice idea! I used something like this for a project that required a sampled sound. Timer -> Counter -> EPROM -> DAC. The timer is set to double the sample frequency. The counters were a few 74LS161's. Next a standard 8-bit EEPROM (or EPROM) and the DAC was a simple R2R ladder connected to an op-amp to buffer it. There was also some glue logic to start and stop it counting when it was triggered and when it reached the end of the sample. Here's a diagram of an R2R ladder, http://www.ermicro.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/basic_r8.jpg Where R can be 10k ohms and 2R can be 20k ohms. You will probably want to buffer the output with an op-amp. To get a ROM image you can use Audacity and export the sample as an 8-bit, unsigned, raw data stream. This may be a little more complicated, but I think the components will be much simpler to obtain. Alexis. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 1 14:51:55 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 15:51:55 -0500 Subject: sound player In-Reply-To: <4B3E5566.9010602@ubanproductions.com> References: <4B212B34.6070003@hachti.de> <0B5EE3A3-01F7-4033-8194-979B038FFFEF@shiresoft.com> <6d6501090912142128s4198d947ydcccd57fd575fe9@mail.gmail.com> <6d6501090912171242i50e2cc90g3cb7b832d2ba5e20@mail.gmail.com> <4B3E5566.9010602@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <982FA724-D917-4C67-8D56-E1F17718F9CF@neurotica.com> On Jan 1, 2010, at 3:04 PM, Tom Uban wrote: > While this doesn't have any classic content, it may be interesting > to some. > > I'm working on modifying a Heath/Zenith wireless doorbell to play > a sound effect other than the really bad "ding dong" or "Westminster" > version of the same. The new sound effect will be the Cloister bell > from the Doctor Who series. > > Patching into the doorbell circuitry to detect when it is playing > its builtin sample is relatively easy. Coming up with a simple method > of outputting my new sample is a bit trickier. As I recall, there were > some specialized ICs out a few years back which would do just this > sort of thing. I've also considered connecting a basic mp3 player. > > Other suggestions? The ISD series of chips from Winbond will do the trick nicely. They store sound in what amount to analog EEPROM cells. I've designed with them; they are easy to deal with and work very well. Versions are available with pushbutton-compatible control signals, I2C, and others. Some have "address" pins so you can have multiple addressable messages. They are more or less self-contained; they require very little support circuitry. You can have a basic record/playback circuit up and running in an hour or two. Look at the ISD2560, for example. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 1 15:47:33 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 13:47:33 -0800 Subject: sound player In-Reply-To: <4B3E5566.9010602@ubanproductions.com> References: <4B212B34.6070003@hachti.de>, <6d6501090912171242i50e2cc90g3cb7b832d2ba5e20@mail.gmail.com>, <4B3E5566.9010602@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <4B3DFCF5.29518.ED33F0@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jan 2010 at 14:04, Tom Uban wrote: > Other suggestions? How about coding the sound into a cheap microcontroller's memory? How many bytes do you need? --Chuck From fjgjr1 at aol.com Fri Jan 1 17:39:43 2010 From: fjgjr1 at aol.com (fjgjr1 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 18:39:43 -0500 Subject: Osborne books In-Reply-To: <3fcqj5tkf5bg2nd79c2ftdvg8nk6tlllqi@4ax.com> References: <3fcqj5tkf5bg2nd79c2ftdvg8nk6tlllqi@4ax.com> Message-ID: <8CC5952D3FB8989-1DF4-4FC92@webmail-d093.sysops.aol.com> You may want to check www.paperbackswap.com - I got Osborne's "Hypergrowth" book autographed by him to an employee even! Perfect condition ! Very reasonable price & shipping. Also, Amazon and Barns & Noble have services for out of print books by very inexpensive reliable resellers. Note - for the questions on ISBN numbers, they did not start when some early computer books came out. You could try the Library of Congress numbers. Usually, I have found just the title & author are enough for a search. I am doing a lot of research and these are some good sources I found for such older books that are so hard to find. All the best ! Frank Pennsylvania USA -----Original Message----- From: Charles Morris To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Thu, Dec 31, 2009 6:23 pm Subject: Osborne books There was some recent interest in Adam Osborne books. I have found one each of the following: "An Introduction to Microcomputers Volume II: Some Real Products, June 977 Revision" "6800 Programming for Logic Design" Make me an offer. hipping will be USPS Media Mail from zip 65775. hanks harles From evan at snarc.net Fri Jan 1 18:31:21 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 19:31:21 -0500 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?=91Welcome_to_Macintosh=92_on_CNBC_?= =?windows-1252?Q?January_4_at_9=3A30PM_ET?= In-Reply-To: <8ee98aa60912310235h57c52974g4a98f73ac678019b@mail.gmail.com> References: <8ee98aa60912310235h57c52974g4a98f73ac678019b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B3E93D9.9090000@snarc.net> >> tell us more about the people who made it. I searched on their site and >> cannot find any biographical information. >> > http://www.applematters.com/article/the-apple-matters-interview-josh-rizzo/ > > "What is Welcome to Macintosh? > Welcome to Macintosh is a documentary that mixes history, criticism > and an unapologetic revelry of all things Apple." > > There is more in that interview at AppleMatters about their > motivations and approach to the films content. I appreciate your help, but that link is useless. The brief Q&A doesn't tell us anything about WHO these people are. Frankly, I want to know. The less I find about them, the more suspicious I get. Why would anyone go to such lengths to make a movie and disclose so little about themselves? There's not even an "about us" section of the film's web site. Doesn't anyone find that odd? I'm not saying there is some conspiracy. Just saying I find it very strange. From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Fri Jan 1 19:08:29 2010 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 17:08:29 -0800 Subject: Compaq Portable II - Restoration Problem, Help requested Message-ID: <4F0D096515FA41EB85572E2C43EECE70@tegp4> I have 2 Portable IIs in fairly good shape, except that both of them, one an HDD model and one with two FDs. Both run Memory Check and POST but fail to boot. During POST they both give a "162 System Options Not Set - Run Setup" message but when I continue I get a "Non-system disk or disk error" message with several known good original disks (Compaq Setup Disk, PCDOS 3.3 StartUp disk, MSDOS 2.0 disk) Sometimes I get the message, "Disk Boot Failure" I tried replacing the 1987 battery in the HDD Portable II with a fresh battery purchased recently at Frys and had no change in the failure mode. I have two HDD/FDD controller cards and tried both in the HDD Portable II with no change in the failure mode. If I listen to the boot process, it sounds like it cannot read the boot sector. That is, I can hear one seek (or maybe a rezero) to a single location and then no more. As I recall during a DOS boot, you can hear multiple seeks as, first the boot sector loads and then the boot loader (in the boot sector) loads MSDOS.SYS, IO.SYS and the FAT. Since I never hear any seeking I suspect the boot sector cannot be read. I find it surprising that two machines having very different histories will fail in the same way. BTW, they are not even the same type FDDs, one is a "push button" type and the other is a "lidded" type. I am hoping that I am making some sort of operator error which can easily be corrected. Any ideas? Thanks and Happy New Years. Tom From ragooman at comcast.net Fri Jan 1 19:09:27 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 20:09:27 -0500 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?=91Welcome_to_Macintosh=92_on_CNBC_?= =?windows-1252?Q?January_4_at_9=3A30PM_ET?= In-Reply-To: <4B3E93D9.9090000@snarc.net> References: <8ee98aa60912310235h57c52974g4a98f73ac678019b@mail.gmail.com> <4B3E93D9.9090000@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4B3E9CC7.4080901@comcast.net> Evan Koblentz wrote: > Why would anyone go to such lengths to make a movie and disclose so > little about themselves? http://www.linkedin.com/in/joshrizzo =Dan http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ http://www.midatlanticretro.org/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jan 1 19:37:29 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 20:37:29 -0500 Subject: Compaq Portable II - Restoration Problem, Help requested In-Reply-To: <4F0D096515FA41EB85572E2C43EECE70@tegp4> References: <4F0D096515FA41EB85572E2C43EECE70@tegp4> Message-ID: On 1/1/10, Tom Gardner wrote: > I have 2 Portable IIs in fairly good shape, except that both of them, one an > HDD model and one with two FDs. Both run Memory Check and POST but fail to > boot. I got one working the middle of last year. > During POST they both give a > "162 System Options Not Set - Run Setup" message > but when I continue I get a > "Non-system disk or disk error" message > with several known good original disks (Compaq Setup Disk, PCDOS 3.3 StartUp > disk, MSDOS 2.0 disk) You will probably need to boot a genuine Compaq setup floppy to set the drive type bits and such. Until then, it's probably confusing what sort of drive you have and unable to read disks as a consequence. You say "Compaq Setup Disk", but do you know that the setup disk you have matches and is some basic (360K) format? That's the problem I had trying to get mine booting. > I tried replacing the 1987 battery in the HDD Portable II with a fresh > battery purchased recently at Frys and had no change in the failure mode. That will help retain the values, but you still have to set them to non-random contents. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jan 1 19:37:54 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 20:37:54 -0500 Subject: Compaq Portable II - Restoration Problem, Help requested In-Reply-To: References: <4F0D096515FA41EB85572E2C43EECE70@tegp4> Message-ID: On 1/1/10, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 1/1/10, Tom Gardner wrote: >> I have 2 Portable IIs in fairly good shape, except that both of them, one >> an >> HDD model and one with two FDs. Both run Memory Check and POST but fail >> to >> boot. > > I got one working the middle of last year. > >> During POST they both give a >> "162 System Options Not Set - Run Setup" message >> but when I continue I get a >> "Non-system disk or disk error" message >> with several known good original disks (Compaq Setup Disk, PCDOS 3.3 >> StartUp >> disk, MSDOS 2.0 disk) > > You will probably need to boot a genuine Compaq setup floppy to set > the drive type bits and such. Until then, it's probably confusing > what sort of drive you have and unable to read disks as a consequence. > > You say "Compaq Setup Disk", but do you know that the setup disk you > have matches and is some basic (360K) format? That's the problem I > had trying to get mine booting. > >> I tried replacing the 1987 battery in the HDD Portable II with a fresh >> battery purchased recently at Frys and had no change in the failure mode. > > That will help retain the values, but you still have to set them to > non-random contents. > > -ethan > From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Jan 1 19:47:07 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 17:47:07 -0800 Subject: Compaq Portable II - Restoration Problem, Help requested In-Reply-To: <4F0D096515FA41EB85572E2C43EECE70@tegp4> Message-ID: If you take the floppy drive and hook it up to another pc, can you read or boot from those disks? Did you put those disks into a windows 2000/xp or newer pc? Possibly as far back as win 98/95 (I don't remember when they started) the boot sector gets overwritten if you put a non write protected disk in the drive in windows. On 1/1/10 5:08 PM, "Tom Gardner" wrote: > I have 2 Portable IIs in fairly good shape, except that both of them, one an > HDD model and one with two FDs. Both run Memory Check and POST but fail to > boot. > > During POST they both give a > "162 System Options Not Set - Run Setup" message > but when I continue I get a > "Non-system disk or disk error" message > with several known good original disks (Compaq Setup Disk, PCDOS 3.3 StartUp > disk, MSDOS 2.0 disk) > > Sometimes I get the message, "Disk Boot Failure" > > I tried replacing the 1987 battery in the HDD Portable II with a fresh > battery purchased recently at Frys and had no change in the failure mode. > > I have two HDD/FDD controller cards and tried both in the HDD Portable II > with no change in the failure mode. > > If I listen to the boot process, it sounds like it cannot read the boot > sector. That is, I can hear one seek (or maybe a rezero) to a single > location and then no more. As I recall during a DOS boot, you can hear > multiple seeks as, first the boot sector loads and then the boot loader (in > the boot sector) loads MSDOS.SYS, IO.SYS and the FAT. Since I never hear > any seeking I suspect the boot sector cannot be read. > > I find it surprising that two machines having very different histories will > fail in the same way. BTW, they are not even the same type FDDs, one is a > "push button" type and the other is a "lidded" type. > > I am hoping that I am making some sort of operator error which can easily be > corrected. > > Any ideas? > > Thanks and Happy New Years. > > Tom > > From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri Jan 1 20:55:56 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 18:55:56 -0800 Subject: Compaq Portable II - Restoration Problem, Help requested In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B3EB5BC.2010807@mail.msu.edu> Geoffrey Reed wrote: > Did you put those disks into a windows 2000/xp or newer pc? Possibly as far > back as win 98/95 (I don't remember when they started) the boot sector gets > overwritten if you put a non write protected disk in the drive in windows. > > I don't believe this is true. If it _is_ true, it's news to me, as I've been doing stuff with floppies on Windows for years and haven't noticed anything as odd as that occurring. Josh From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Jan 1 21:03:32 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 21:03:32 -0600 Subject: Looking for a few ISA cards Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001011903y24d932bar19a10e10e83e71e4@mail.gmail.com> Hi everyone. I'm looking for an isa VGA card, a sound card, and an ne2000 network board. I have 1 16-bit slot and 2 8-bit slots to play with. This is for an amiga with a 286 bridge board. If anyone has any they'd be willing to part with, please let me know. I have a sound blaster and an ne2000 board, but they're both 16-bit. The amiga 2000 motherboard is setup for 16 bit slots in place of the 2 8-bit slots. The sockets just aren't there. (Not sure why commodore thought this was a good idea) I could find a donor board and solder in the extra connectors I guess. A more interesting solution though would be a 16-bit isa extender and an expansion chassis. I could put a passive backplane in another amiga 2000 case and have more 16-bit isa slots than I could fill. Alas, these extender cards are ridiculously expensive. If you know where to get these bus extenders new/used at a reasonable price, please let me know. So I guess the best solution for now would be a 16-bit vga card and an 8-bit ne2000 board. I'm not sure if the bridgeboard can emulate a sound blaster through the amiga's sound system, so maybe that's not needed at all. brian From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Jan 1 21:17:09 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 01:17:09 -0200 Subject: sound player References: <4B212B34.6070003@hachti.de><0B5EE3A3-01F7-4033-8194-979B038FFFEF@shiresoft.com><6d6501090912142128s4198d947ydcccd57fd575fe9@mail.gmail.com><6d6501090912171242i50e2cc90g3cb7b832d2ba5e20@mail.gmail.com> <4B3E5566.9010602@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <153001ca8b5a$5c7ffe50$eed059bb@Alexandre> > Patching into the doorbell circuitry to detect when it is playing > its builtin sample is relatively easy. Coming up with a simple method > of outputting my new sample is a bit trickier. As I recall, there were > some specialized ICs out a few years back which would do just this > sort of thing. I've also considered connecting a basic mp3 player. ISD audio chips, look for that, winbond used to manufacture them. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 1 21:23:01 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 19:23:01 -0800 Subject: Compaq Portable II - Restoration Problem, Help requested In-Reply-To: <4B3EB5BC.2010807@mail.msu.edu> References: , <4B3EB5BC.2010807@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4B3E4B95.7988.2205638@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jan 2010 at 18:55, Josh Dersch wrote: > I don't believe this is true. If it _is_ true, it's news to me, as > I've been doing stuff with floppies on Windows for years and haven't > noticed anything as odd as that occurring. S'true. Early versions of Windows 9x would unceremoniously change the OEM name in bytes 3-10 to "xxxxIHC" where xxxx was a random character field on any un-protected diskette. Ostensibly, this was done for purposes of volume tracking--and done without warning. Of course, if the write failed by corrupting the boot sector, all manner of trouble ensued. I don't believe that later versions (e.g. Win95 OSR2, Win98, WinME) did this. I think that some people were stunned by the unmitigated chutzpa of the Win95 implementors. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 1 21:26:41 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 19:26:41 -0800 Subject: Looking for a few ISA cards In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381001011903y24d932bar19a10e10e83e71e4@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c381001011903y24d932bar19a10e10e83e71e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B3E4C71.24507.223B11B@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jan 2010 at 21:03, Brian Lanning wrote: > So I guess the best solution for now would be a 16-bit vga card and an > 8-bit ne2000 board. I'm not sure if the bridgeboard can emulate a > sound blaster through the amiga's sound system, so maybe that's not > needed at all. Wouldn't an 8-bit Novell nic be an NE-1000? --Chuck From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri Jan 1 21:40:18 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 19:40:18 -0800 Subject: Compaq Portable II - Restoration Problem, Help requested In-Reply-To: <4B3E4B95.7988.2205638@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B3EB5BC.2010807@mail.msu.edu> <4B3E4B95.7988.2205638@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B3EC022.6000103@mail.msu.edu> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 Jan 2010 at 18:55, Josh Dersch wrote: > > >> I don't believe this is true. If it _is_ true, it's news to me, as >> I've been doing stuff with floppies on Windows for years and haven't >> noticed anything as odd as that occurring. >> > > S'true. Early versions of Windows 9x would unceremoniously change > the OEM name in bytes 3-10 to "xxxxIHC" where xxxx was a random > character field on any un-protected diskette. Ostensibly, this was > done for purposes of volume tracking--and done without warning. > > Of course, if the write failed by corrupting the boot sector, all > manner of trouble ensued. > > I don't believe that later versions (e.g. Win95 OSR2, Win98, WinME) > did this. > > I think that some people were stunned by the unmitigated chutzpa of > the Win95 implementors. > > --Chuck > Very interesting, I had no idea. Looks like Windows 95/98 only: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/148637. Never heard about this before. Sounds like a useful idea poorly implemented (cue snarky comments). Recent Windows releases definitely don't do this or I'd have had a lot of trouble with my IBM PS/2 refdisks... Josh From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 1 21:47:49 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 22:47:49 -0500 Subject: sound player In-Reply-To: <153001ca8b5a$5c7ffe50$eed059bb@Alexandre> References: <4B212B34.6070003@hachti.de><0B5EE3A3-01F7-4033-8194-979B038FFFEF@shiresoft.com><6d6501090912142128s4198d947ydcccd57fd575fe9@mail.gmail.com><6d6501090912171242i50e2cc90g3cb7b832d2ba5e20@mail.gmail.com> <4B3E5566.9010602@ubanproductions.com> <153001ca8b5a$5c7ffe50$eed059bb@Alexandre> Message-ID: On Jan 1, 2010, at 10:17 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Patching into the doorbell circuitry to detect when it is playing >> its builtin sample is relatively easy. Coming up with a simple method >> of outputting my new sample is a bit trickier. As I recall, there >> were >> some specialized ICs out a few years back which would do just this >> sort of thing. I've also considered connecting a basic mp3 player. > > ISD audio chips, look for that, winbond used to manufacture them. Used to? They don't anymore? -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri Jan 1 21:53:37 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 19:53:37 -0800 Subject: Looking for a few ISA cards In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381001011903y24d932bar19a10e10e83e71e4@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c381001011903y24d932bar19a10e10e83e71e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B3EC341.20701@mail.msu.edu> Brian Lanning wrote: > Hi everyone. I'm looking for an isa VGA card, a sound card, and an > ne2000 network board. I have 1 16-bit slot and 2 8-bit slots to play > with. This is for an amiga with a 286 bridge board. If anyone has > any they'd be willing to part with, please let me know. > > I have a sound blaster and an ne2000 board, but they're both 16-bit. > The amiga 2000 motherboard is setup for 16 bit slots in place of the 2 > 8-bit slots. The sockets just aren't there. (Not sure why commodore > thought this was a good idea) I could find a donor board and solder > in the extra connectors I guess. > > A more interesting solution though would be a 16-bit isa extender and > an expansion chassis. I could put a passive backplane in another > amiga 2000 case and have more 16-bit isa slots than I could fill. > Alas, these extender cards are ridiculously expensive. If you know > where to get these bus extenders new/used at a reasonable price, > please let me know. > > So I guess the best solution for now would be a 16-bit vga card and an > 8-bit ne2000 board. I'm not sure if the bridgeboard can emulate a > sound blaster through the amiga's sound system, so maybe that's not > needed at all. > > brian > > Just FYI -- Some 16-bit ISA VGA cards work fine in an 8-bit slot, I have one in my XT. Josh From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Fri Jan 1 22:39:04 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 20:39:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IOKAmFdlbGNvbWUgdG8gTWFjaW50b3No4oCZIG9uIENOQkMgSmFudWFy?= =?utf-8?B?eSA0IGF0IDk6MzBQTSBFVA==?= In-Reply-To: <4B3E9CC7.4080901@comcast.net> Message-ID: <417796.99172.qm@web113520.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1247703/ It has 6 Reviews.. The best review I saw stated this: "There is a hugely compelling reason to buy this DVD, however, and that is in the special features. The filmmakers have VERY wisely chosen to include the complete interviews with each interviewee, adding up to almost three hours of stories and trivia that really seem more entertaining than the film itself. While the overall disc probably isn't terribly compelling to everyone, Apple history buffs will really enjoy the extended interview footage." From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 1 23:01:00 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 21:01:00 -0800 Subject: Looking for a few ISA cards In-Reply-To: <4B3EC341.20701@mail.msu.edu> References: <6dbe3c381001011903y24d932bar19a10e10e83e71e4@mail.gmail.com>, <4B3EC341.20701@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4B3E628C.12976.27A09C8@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jan 2010 at 19:53, Josh Dersch wrote: > Just FYI -- Some 16-bit ISA VGA cards work fine in an 8-bit slot, I > have one in my XT. So do some NICs--the Artisoft AE-2 comes to mind... --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 2 01:35:24 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 23:35:24 -0800 Subject: Compaq Portable II - Restoration Problem, Help requested In-Reply-To: <4B3EC022.6000103@mail.msu.edu> References: , <4B3E4B95.7988.2205638@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B3EC022.6000103@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4B3E86BC.11293.307647D@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jan 2010 at 19:40, Josh Dersch wrote: > Very interesting, I had no idea. Looks like Windows 95/98 only: > http://support.microsoft.com/kb/148637. > > Never heard about this before. Sounds like a useful idea poorly > implemented (cue snarky comments). Recent Windows releases definitely > don't do this or I'd have had a lot of trouble with my IBM PS/2 > refdisks... Modern (1.2M 5.25 and 1.44M 3.5) floppy drives come with a "disk changed" detection feature (really a "the drive gate was opened-- you'd better check" status). 360K and some 720K drives do not. Microsoft apparently wanted a volume tracking feature that would work for all removable media and so devised the above-described method; words in the KB say that the VSN in the boot sector isn't reliable enough and the implementors apparently didn't want to take the CP/M route of checksumming the first few directory entries of a disk. One wonders why MS couldn't have picked somewhere else to write if they really needed to do it. We used to warn our customers that if they were set on using Win95 to browse floppies to make sure that write protect was set on every floppy they looked at--or to disable writing (by clipping the WG* pin on the floppy connector) permanently on the floppy drive. --Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Jan 2 03:38:20 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 04:38:20 -0500 Subject: Looking for a few ISA cards References: <6dbe3c381001011903y24d932bar19a10e10e83e71e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <439D98196766498B87DB397CA61285D3@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Lanning" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 10:03 PM Subject: Looking for a few ISA cards > Hi everyone. I'm looking for an isa VGA card, a sound card, and an > ne2000 network board. I have 1 16-bit slot and 2 8-bit slots to play > with. This is for an amiga with a 286 bridge board. If anyone has > any they'd be willing to part with, please let me know. > > I have a sound blaster and an ne2000 board, but they're both 16-bit. > The amiga 2000 motherboard is setup for 16 bit slots in place of the 2 > 8-bit slots. The sockets just aren't there. (Not sure why commodore > thought this was a good idea) I could find a donor board and solder > in the extra connectors I guess. > > A more interesting solution though would be a 16-bit isa extender and > an expansion chassis. I could put a passive backplane in another > amiga 2000 case and have more 16-bit isa slots than I could fill. > Alas, these extender cards are ridiculously expensive. If you know > where to get these bus extenders new/used at a reasonable price, > please let me know. > > So I guess the best solution for now would be a 16-bit vga card and an > 8-bit ne2000 board. I'm not sure if the bridgeboard can emulate a > sound blaster through the amiga's sound system, so maybe that's not > needed at all. > > brian Easiest thing to do is solder in the 16 bit headers on the (2) 8 bit slots. That is what I did on my A2000 a few years ago for the 286 bridgeboard. I have downgraded to an XT bridgeboard recently to be different (and I owed a friend a favor and he wanted the 286). For the extenders just desolder (or find new) 16 bit isa slots and cleanly break off the extender part. The ones I tried almost seemed like they were made to snap in the correct place, I then just filed it down a little to look nice. Failing that you might as well use a common 16 bit network card and a not so common 8 bit VGA card (just snagged another one of those the other day actually, have yet to test it). Some 16 bit VGA work in 8 bit slots (some ATI anyway). There are 8 bit isa soundblasters. From nico at farumdata.dk Sat Jan 2 08:46:56 2010 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 15:46:56 +0100 Subject: Looking for a few ISA cards References: <6dbe3c381001011903y24d932bar19a10e10e83e71e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi I found an 8-bit net card for a coax and a 15-pin subd connector. It comes from digital. It has an AMD prom called 21-21672-11 050PROM, a 27c128JL EPROM and a chip called TC120G08AT The EPROM is labelled 23-392E5-00, dec'90 FCC-id AO9-DE100 I also have som 16-bit net cards, one of those is equipped with coax and RJ45. I/O addres, IRQ and ROM address can be strapped. There is a "netware Yes" sticker on the man chip. Can't help with the sound card. Please say so if you need further details. Free for posting (from Denmark) Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Lanning" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 4:03 AM Subject: Looking for a few ISA cards > Hi everyone. I'm looking for an isa VGA card, a sound card, and an > ne2000 network board. I have 1 16-bit slot and 2 8-bit slots to play > with. This is for an amiga with a 286 bridge board. If anyone has > any they'd be willing to part with, please let me know. > > I have a sound blaster and an ne2000 board, but they're both 16-bit. > The amiga 2000 motherboard is setup for 16 bit slots in place of the 2 > 8-bit slots. The sockets just aren't there. (Not sure why commodore > thought this was a good idea) I could find a donor board and solder > in the extra connectors I guess. > > A more interesting solution though would be a 16-bit isa extender and > an expansion chassis. I could put a passive backplane in another > amiga 2000 case and have more 16-bit isa slots than I could fill. > Alas, these extender cards are ridiculously expensive. If you know > where to get these bus extenders new/used at a reasonable price, > please let me know. > > So I guess the best solution for now would be a 16-bit vga card and an > 8-bit ne2000 board. I'm not sure if the bridgeboard can emulate a > sound blaster through the amiga's sound system, so maybe that's not > needed at all. > > brian > From halarewich at gmail.com Sat Jan 2 09:34:56 2010 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 07:34:56 -0800 Subject: sound player In-Reply-To: References: <4B212B34.6070003@hachti.de> <0B5EE3A3-01F7-4033-8194-979B038FFFEF@shiresoft.com> <6d6501090912142128s4198d947ydcccd57fd575fe9@mail.gmail.com> <6d6501090912171242i50e2cc90g3cb7b832d2ba5e20@mail.gmail.com> <4B3E5566.9010602@ubanproductions.com> <153001ca8b5a$5c7ffe50$eed059bb@Alexandre> Message-ID: <6d6501091001020734k457c2135jee24f2c1f43fa577@mail.gmail.com> http://www.isd.com/hq/enu/ http://www.isd.com/hq/enu/ProductAndSales/ProductLines/ConsumerElectronicsIC/ISDVoiceIC/ISDChipCorder/ On 1/1/10, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On Jan 1, 2010, at 10:17 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >> Patching into the doorbell circuitry to detect when it is playing >>> its builtin sample is relatively easy. Coming up with a simple method >>> of outputting my new sample is a bit trickier. As I recall, there were >>> some specialized ICs out a few years back which would do just this >>> sort of thing. I've also considered connecting a basic mp3 player. >>> >> >> ISD audio chips, look for that, winbond used to manufacture them. >> > > > Used to? They don't anymore? > > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 2 10:51:58 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 16:51:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Osborne books In-Reply-To: <8CC5952D3FB8989-1DF4-4FC92@webmail-d093.sysops.aol.com> from "fjgjr1@aol.com" at Jan 1, 10 06:39:43 pm Message-ID: > > > You may want to check www.paperbackswap.com - I got Osborne's "Hypergrowth= > " book autographed by him to an employee even! Perfect condition ! Very= > reasonable price & shipping. > > Also, Amazon and Barns & Noble have services for out of print books by ver= > y inexpensive reliable resellers. It's also worth checking ABE books (http://www.abebooks.com/ I think). I found a couple of old books there that I wanted, and the prices were reasonable. They haev a keyword/title search, so you don't have to know the iSBN. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 2 11:09:49 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 17:09:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Compaq Portable II - Restoration Problem, Help requested In-Reply-To: from "Geoffrey Reed" at Jan 1, 10 05:47:07 pm Message-ID: > Did you put those disks into a windows 2000/xp or newer pc? Possibly as far > back as win 98/95 (I don't remember when they started) the boot sector gets > overwritten if you put a non write protected disk in the drive in windows. I knew I had good reasons for disliking Microsoft operating systems. That is plain ridiculous. No OS should overwrite a boot sector, or for that matter just about any other part of a disk without the user explicitily telling it to. Period. -tony From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Sat Jan 2 12:11:32 2010 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 10:11:32 -0800 Subject: Compaq Portable II - Restoration Problem, Help requested In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 17:09:49 +0000 (GMT) From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: Compaq Portable II - Restoration Problem, Help requested To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain > Did you put those disks into a windows 2000/xp or newer pc? Possibly as far > back as win 98/95 (I don't remember when they started) the boot sector gets > overwritten if you put a non write protected disk in the drive in windows. Pretty sure some of these disks have never seen Windows of any form. At least one booted a Compaq Portable I owned by a friend Tom From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Jan 2 14:40:01 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 15:40:01 -0500 Subject: Looking for a few ISA cards Message-ID: <01CA8BC1.E4EF08A0@MSE_D03> ---------------Original Message: Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 21:03:32 -0600 From: Brian Lanning Subject: Looking for a few ISA cards Hi everyone. I'm looking for an isa VGA card, a sound card, and an ne2000 network board. I have 1 16-bit slot and 2 8-bit slots to play with. This is for an amiga with a 286 bridge board. If anyone has any they'd be willing to part with, please let me know. ----------------Reply: You might have better luck on the Computer Vintage Forum for this sort of stuff: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/ m ****************************************************************************** From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jan 2 16:24:50 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 14:24:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Compaq Portable II - Restoration Problem, Help requested In-Reply-To: <4B3E86BC.11293.307647D@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B3E4B95.7988.2205638@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B3EC022.6000103@mail.msu.edu> <4B3E86BC.11293.307647D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100102140352.O25676@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 1 Jan 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Modern (1.2M 5.25 and 1.44M 3.5) floppy drives come with a "disk > changed" detection feature (really a "the drive gate was opened-- > you'd better check" status). 360K and some 720K drives do not. > Microsoft apparently wanted a volume tracking feature that would work > for all removable media and so devised the above-described method; > words in the KB say that the VSN in the boot sector isn't reliable > enough and the implementors apparently didn't want to take the CP/M > route of checksumming the first few directory entries of a disk. A quick over-simplified reminder of WHY, . . . If you switch diskettes, and then WRITE to it, the system can mess up the diskette because it "remembered" the directory of the wrong diskette. Particularly when SMARTDSK is on, with write cacheing! Simple. Press ^C whenever you change diskettes. We've all seen plenty of times when that was NECESSARY. But, I have NEVER seen ANY mention by MICROS~1 about ^C to be used to signal disk change to the OS. NEVER. OK, if they won't tell people to press ^C, (and people would forget anyway), there needs to be some other way to know about disk change. The hardware works reliably, WHEN IT IS THERE. Ever have to mask off pin 34? ("READY" V "DISK CHANGE") VSN should work, but it was too easy to DISKCOPY and end up with two disks with the same VSN. Checksumming the DIRectory works marginally OK, but won't catch a situation where a disk has been replaced by its backup, particularly when there have been modifications to a file that didn't change the number of clusters of its length. Instead of the first few DIR entries, the last few are more likely to be changed with file additions. A USE for detecting 00 vs E5 in the first byte of a DIR entry! Instead of messing with my boot sector, howzbout creating a bogus directory entry, as is done for disk name, or long filenames, at the physical end of the directory sectors. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > One wonders why MS couldn't have picked somewhere else to write if > they really needed to do it. We used to warn our customers that if > they were set on using Win95 to browse floppies to make sure that > write protect was set on every floppy they looked at--or to disable > writing (by clipping the WG* pin on the floppy connector) > permanently on the floppy drive. > --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jan 2 16:33:35 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 14:33:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking for a few ISA cards In-Reply-To: <439D98196766498B87DB397CA61285D3@dell8300> References: <6dbe3c381001011903y24d932bar19a10e10e83e71e4@mail.gmail.com> <439D98196766498B87DB397CA61285D3@dell8300> Message-ID: <20100102143251.D25676@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 2 Jan 2010, Teo Zenios wrote: > > Hi everyone. I'm looking for an isa VGA card, a sound card, and an Should I bother to dig out some VGA cards that had Genlock? From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 2 17:48:12 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Jan 2010 15:48:12 -0800 Subject: Compaq Portable II - Restoration Problem, Help requested In-Reply-To: <20100102140352.O25676@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4B3E86BC.11293.307647D@cclist.sydex.com>, <20100102140352.O25676@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B3F6ABC.12563.148F65B@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jan 2010 at 14:24, Fred Cisin wrote: > Instead of messing with my boot sector, howzbout creating a bogus > directory entry, as is done for disk name, or long filenames, at the > physical end of the directory sectors. This is particularly ironic since Microsoft had complete control over what constituted an MS-DOS floppy boot sector since the beginning. Indeed, they even changed it a couple of times. The annoying thing about the boot sector rewrite is that it happens if the floppy is writable (i.e. write-protect is off); it doesn't matter if a file was opened on the floppy for writing or not. I'm too lazy to verify this, but I believe that most standard DOS floppy formats do not fully occupy the last sector of the FAT with allocation information. So writing the volume tracking data (if you had to do it) at the end of the last FAT sector in the second FAT copy would likely do the least damage. In any case, why track volume information if (a) the floppy doesn't have files open for writing and (b) one can handle write-protected floppies anyway? But then, Microsoft has the top technical talent, don't they? --Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Jan 2 20:19:36 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 18:19:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: (a bit OT) Tube radios Message-ID: Is there someone here who has built/designed an am/fm radio using currently manufactured vacuum tubes? If so, please point me in the right direction. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From steve at radiorobots.com Sat Jan 2 21:09:42 2010 From: steve at radiorobots.com (steve stutman) Date: Sat, 02 Jan 2010 22:09:42 -0500 Subject: (a bit OT) Tube radios In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B400A76.20405@radiorobots.com> David Griffith wrote: > > Is there someone here who has built/designed an am/fm radio using > currently manufactured vacuum tubes? If so, please point me in the > right direction. > If def of "currently mfg'ed" is literal, you may have issues. Virtually all the tubes which would make decent FM front ends / converters were made in USA and EU; stress were. Presently made, in general, covers only audio and similar. The quality of contemporary "global mfg" tubes is basically poor with a few exceptions. Sylvania, GE, Telefunken, Mullard, Raytheon, RCA, Philips etc are history in this sector. If you mean NOS, which number prob over 100 meg pieces, you can build/recreate many things. Look at a SAMS Photofact index for a circuit which appeals to you. It will be easier to salvage parts such as variable caps, inductors, IF xfmrs, etc from older donor radios than to buy or build new. See: tubesandmore.com and www.antiquewireless.org Might be of help getting going. GL es HNY, Steve From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jan 2 21:45:04 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sat, 02 Jan 2010 20:45:04 -0700 Subject: (a bit OT) Tube radios In-Reply-To: <4B400A76.20405@radiorobots.com> References: <4B400A76.20405@radiorobots.com> Message-ID: <4B4012C0.8010802@jetnet.ab.ca> steve stutman wrote: > David Griffith wrote: >> >> Is there someone here who has built/designed an am/fm radio using >> currently manufactured vacuum tubes? If so, please point me in the >> right direction. >> > If def of "currently mfg'ed" is literal, you may have issues. Virtually > all the tubes which would make decent FM front ends / converters were > made in USA and EU; stress were. Count on a big box of stuff. Your best bet is to find a older 'top' quality tuner and rebuild it. Today's tuners are for 'cheap sound'. Look around, you can still get them if you shop wisely on the net. Ben. PS. The problem with DIY is that tube radio transformers are hard to come by. From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Jan 2 23:50:18 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2010 00:50:18 -0500 Subject: (a bit OT) Tube radios In-Reply-To: <4B4012C0.8010802@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4B400A76.20405@radiorobots.com> <4B4012C0.8010802@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4B40301A.5020809@verizon.net> Ben wrote: > steve stutman wrote: >> David Griffith wrote: >>> >>> Is there someone here who has built/designed an am/fm radio using >>> currently manufactured vacuum tubes? If so, please point me in the >>> right direction. >>> > >> If def of "currently mfg'ed" is literal, you may have issues. Virtually >> all the tubes which would make decent FM front ends / converters were >> made in USA and EU; stress were. > > Count on a big box of stuff. Your best bet is to find a older 'top' > quality tuner and rebuild it. Today's tuners are for 'cheap sound'. > Look around, you can still get them if you shop wisely on the net. > Ben. > PS. The problem with DIY is that tube radio transformers are hard to > come by. > Roger that. The tubes are the easy part as there is a mountain of NOS (new unused old stock) floating around at acceptable prices. The coils needed as well is capacitors with adequate high voltage ratings are harder to find. You will also need resistors with .5 and 1W rating also scarcer and more expensive.. In many parts of the circuit the current generation metal film resistors exhibit too much inductance compared to the older carbon composition types. The power transformer you can plan on paying dearly, salvage from old gear or winding your own (on a dead one salvaged). FYI: doing a vacuum tube tuner at 88-108 mhz is as much a mechanical project as electronic. The preferred tubes for that are the old RCA Nuvistors (6ds4 and 6cw4 also available as NOS) but the sockets may be a challenge. there are other tubes that do nearly s well in the miniature basing. If this is stereo, a stereo decoder using tubes is a ponderous afair and none I've worked with are as good as the mid 80s or later solid state PLL based designs. Coils for this will be hand made if you really want to and design data will be scarce. Do try to find a mid 1960s RCA receiving tube handbook (circuits you will need are in the back). The easy way, find a Dynaco or Heathkit Tuners and refurbish it. Typically $50 in capacitors, a few tubes and they will live again. I completed a 5 tube 3.5 to 4mhz am/ssb/cw receiver from my junk box a few years ago. Based on current prices for the common parts it was greater than $200 for the parts new. Heavy cost items, aluminum chassis, power transformer (6.3V at 3A and 150V secondary), audio output transformer, IF coils, tuning capacitors, dial assembly, tube sockets, 1/2watt resistors, forms for hand wound coils. I know this as a friend wanted to duplicate it so I made a parts list (with acceptable substitutions) and he priced it deciding to pass on it. He had no old parts to draw on. Having built and maintaining ham gear using tubes the mechanical issues and finding suitable parts makes it difficult. While interesting and hobby fun I can build from scratch with conventional solid state devices faster and better radios. My junk box is not only bigger than most it also yields a lot more 35+ year old parts! Allison From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Jan 3 01:38:23 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sat, 02 Jan 2010 23:38:23 -0800 Subject: Tandon TM50 drives In-Reply-To: <4B40301A.5020809@verizon.net> Message-ID: Anyone have any old Tandon TM50 drives floating around? From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Sun Jan 3 03:06:20 2010 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2010 10:06:20 +0100 Subject: HP Integral / display schematic ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B405E0C.10904@bluewin.ch> Tony Duell wrote: >>>> The small PCB mounted on the back generates a blanking signal that was >>>> also correct. >>>> >>>> >>> Right. It's neen a long time since I've looked at one of these displays. Is >>> this a little PCB on top of the display PCB itself? >>> >>> >> No, it is a small PCB mounted on the plastic frame, and it contains 5 >> TTL to calculate the framing signal from H and V sync. Should have been >> done in the displaycontroller imho. >> > > Now that's interesting. I am darn sure neighter of my IPCs has such a > PCB. There are 2 unused threaded studs on the back of the display > housing, is that where this PCB is fitted? > Yes, on 3 such studs. The ribbon cable connects to the extra PCB, another 10 cm long ribbon cable goes to the display PCB. Most signals are just passed on, the framing signals is generated on the board. Both my Integrals have this. Jos From jws at jwsss.com Sat Jan 2 05:47:01 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sat, 02 Jan 2010 03:47:01 -0800 Subject: Compaq Portable II - Restoration Problem, Help requested In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B3F3235.8090507@jwsss.com> I received 2 copies of each diskette that Tom created for he and I. My Compaq Portable III booted both the setup disks successfully. (also no write protects were killed in the testing) The images are created from Soft Paq's that I archived before ftp.compaq.com had them removed, and are not copies, but rather generated from those utilities. If anyone needs more information on those let me know. I have both the 720k and 360k versions. Tom was careful to use blank diskettes in a high density drive, etc. to create the 360k ones I tried. below is a link to the splash screen from the setup disk http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=206530&l=73238a90bc&id=1795637800 The bootup process includes a few second delay, then a long seek, then about 10 seconds of short seeks / chatter, then another long seek. Tom is hearing none of this, so it is sounding like something very early and very fundamental. Hope this unleashes some other ideas for him. Jim Geoffrey Reed wrote: > If you take the floppy drive and hook it up to another pc, can you read or > boot from those disks? > > > From mjj14 at aol.com Sat Jan 2 20:25:13 2010 From: mjj14 at aol.com (mjj14 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 02 Jan 2010 21:25:13 -0500 Subject: Selling Vintage Apple Collection Message-ID: <8CC5A331CD3861F-25DC-249E@webmail-d011.sysops.aol.com> Hello group members, My name is Matt Janeczek and I live in Indianapolis, IN. I'm new to the list but come bearing goodies for all! To give you a little background on myself, I used to collect vintage Apple products from the Apple II all the way to the Power Macintosh G3 and amassed a fairly hefty collection over the years, from the very common to rare prototypes and everything in between. While I had great fun doing this for several years, I've come to the point in my life where I no longer have the time or space to continue the hobby. I'm trying to find a buyer (or small group of buyers) to purchase most, if not all, of my collection. It would save me a lot of time and effort if I can accomplish this versus listing everything individually on eBay or other sites. I would rate the vast majority of my collection in very good to excellent condition, so this isn't just a random junk pile I'm trying to dump on somebody, hah. I'm simply asking for reasonable, decent offers from buyers who will appreciate the collection for what it's worth. I'm not posting any prices but any serious offers will be considered. Shipping will be extra for any non-local purchases by the carrier of your choice. PayPal or money orders are acceptable forms of payment. The following address will take you to the Public folder of my iDisk. Click on the Apple folder to download pictures of everything listed below. http://public.me.com/mjaneczek -Mac Plus with 40 MB hard disk preloaded with an assortment of pre-OS 6 applications -Apple magnetic tape drive -Apple 5.25" external floppy drive -Apple IIGS keyboard with green and yellow keys -Apple Set Top Box -QuickTake 200 cameras (one new in box, one complete in box) and all accessories -Apple Presentation System (two new in box) -Apple TV/Video System (new in box) -Macintosh Portable Battery Recharger (two new in box) -GeoPort Telecom Adapter Kit (new in box) -DOS Compatibility Card for Power Macintosh 6100 (complete in box) -Power Macintosh AV Card (complete in box) -AudioVision Adapter Kit (new in box) -PowerBook Duo AC Adapter (new in box) -Network Server Memory Expansion Kit (two new in box) -Apple Ethernet NB Card (new in box) -Apple Ethernet CS Thin Coax Card (new in box) -Apple Ethernet 10T/5 Workgroup Hub (new in box) -Apple External Video Connector (new in box) -System 7.5 CD and manual -Assortment of Macintosh software titles, all complete in box (see pictures) -Apple Service Source CD 2003 -Apple Extended Keyboard II with Overlay -AppleDesign Powered Speakers -QuickTime Conferencing Kit -ADB Mouse I -Design Center 3D -Quicken 95 (syncs with PocketMoney on the Newton) -LocalTalk Locking Connector Kit DB-9 (new in box) -PrintShop and PrintShop Companion for the IIGS (complete in box) -GeoPort modem, software and manual -Avid VideoShop (the best video editing software to use with the 6100 AV card) -Assortment of early Apple II and Mac hardware, software and programming manuals -Apple II mouse and card -Echo II speaker and card -Music Construction Set for Apple II -20 loose floppy disks containing 150+ Apple II software titles -The Encyclopedia of Multimedia CD and LaserDisc -PowerBook Duo 280c with mini dock, floppy drive, extra battery, two power adapters, charging station, original manuals and documentation, preloaded with an assortment of software including MS Office and Adobe titles and compact carrying case to hold everything -PowerBook Duo 280c extra mini dock -PowerBook Due 280c replacement keyboard (new in box) The following items are not pictured but all are in excellent condition as well. Pictures provided upon request. -Performa 6115CD with OS 7.5, all hardware, accessories and original software bundle (complete in box) -Color StyleWriter 2400 (complete in box) -Color StyleWriter Pro (no box or manuals) -Color OneScanner 1200/30 (complete in box) -Color OneScanner Document Feeder (two complete in box) -Color OneScanner Transparent Media Adapter (complete in box) -PowerMac G3 Minitower and accessories including a scanner, printer, full size Wacom drawing tablet, MIDI interface, CD burner and speakers with OS 9 -Huge collection of MacAddict (with all shareware CDs), MacHome, Macworld and other computing magazines from the 1990s and early 2000s, literally hundreds all in near mint condition Please let me know if you have any questions. Thanks for looking! From jrr at flippers.com Sat Jan 2 21:28:04 2010 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Sat, 02 Jan 2010 19:28:04 -0800 Subject: Tech tip: check your batteries! Terminals and logic boards Message-ID: <4B400EC4.3050906@flippers.com> Anyone who collects laptops, terminals, or motherboards with memory backup needs to pay attention to the batteries. If the machine is in storage it would be a good idea to open it up and remove the battery (Ni-Cad or non-chargeable Alkaline) before it leaks and destroys the electronics. Note that many 1970s and 80s terminals all used rechargeable batteries to store user info... We often repair older arcade and pinball games (hey, they have computers - and they are classic!) where the battery has leaked and damaged or taken the board to the board graveyard... If you have some battery leakage you can read up on a possible solution here: http://www.flippers.com/battery.html Along with many other web sites I'm sure... John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 3 11:50:38 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2010 09:50:38 -0800 Subject: Compaq Portable II - Restoration Problem, Help requested In-Reply-To: <4B3F3235.8090507@jwsss.com> References: , <4B3F3235.8090507@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4B40686E.28466.2C6CEC@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jan 2010 at 3:47, jim s wrote: > Tom is hearing none of this, so it is sounding like something very > early and very fundamental. Does Tom have a set of POST ROMs (i.e. those from Landmark, for example)? They can diagnose a lot of very basic problems right at the start, including some floppy issues. If he has the capability to burn EPROMs, I can probably find an image for him. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 3 12:05:09 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2010 10:05:09 -0800 Subject: Tandon TM50 drives In-Reply-To: References: <4B40301A.5020809@verizon.net>, Message-ID: <4B406BD5.8978.39B570@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jan 2010 at 23:38, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > Anyone have any old Tandon TM50 drives floating around? Were those the ones that used a plastic body rather than a metal casting? --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 3 11:57:09 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 17:57:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: (a bit OT) Tube radios In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Jan 2, 10 06:19:36 pm Message-ID: > > > Is there someone here who has built/designed an am/fm radio using > currently manufactured vacuum tubes? If so, please point me in the right > direction. Your question is ambigous. Do you want to make a radio that can receive either the AM or FM broadcast bands (e.g. with a switch to select between them) or a set that receive one or the other? If the latter, I stongly recomend you build it as 2 separate receivers up to the detector stage followed by a common audio amplifier. Most commercial sets were not made this way, (in order to save valves) but the performance does suffer. A typical trick used was to have a pair of IF transformers one resonated at the AM IF requency (465kHz or so), the other at the FM IF frequency (10.7MHz) and connect them in series (remmeber a parallel tuned circuit is a high impedance at resonance, off resonance it is a low impedance so it has little effect)/. Doing it with vavles that are still made is going to be hard, since the vlaves currently made are mostly audio types. If you will allow 'valves that aare still trivial to find in large quatities' it becomes a lot easier. Try to get a set of the 'Impoverished Radio Experimenter' books. One of them covers making a superhet receiver, including home-made air-cored IF transformers -- the transformers for such sets are a lot harder to find new rhan valves. These books mostly cover the amateur short wave bands, but the principles are much the same for AM broadcast receivers. There was a circuit in the Radiophile magazine a few years back for an AM broadcast-band receiver using TV valves, mostly EF80s IIRC. The input stage was a cascode amplifier using a PCC84 I think. Odd, and the valves are still very common. Making a valve FM tuner from scratch is hard due to the high frequecines invloved (every bit of wire matters!). Mullard published a design of one in an early version of their hi-fi amplifier book, but left it out of later versions since it was so difficult to get working correctly. You will need a good, stable, RF signal generator to have any chance of success, I think. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 3 12:11:36 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 18:11:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP Integral / display schematic ? In-Reply-To: <4B405E0C.10904@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Jan 3, 10 10:06:20 am Message-ID: > Yes, on 3 such studs. The ribbon cable connects to the extra PCB, > another 10 cm long ribbon cable goes to the display PCB. Most signals > are just passed on, the framing signals is generated on the board. > > Both my Integrals have this. OK, I took one of my Integrals apart today to have a look... This machine has serial number 2521A04575. There are 5 trheaded studs on the back of the HP-made display hiusing, none holding anything. A 20 way ribbon cable goes straight from the Logic B PCB to the display module The display module was made by Sharp. It has 2 labels on the front plastic frame. The LH one reads 'PM505160652'. The RH one reads '00095-60032 H h21240' (the first part of that looks like an HP part number to me) The display has a conventional PCB on the back, conencted to the electroluminesxcent panel itself by flexible PCBs which themselves also have ICs on them. The PC is marked SO262YH and LJ512U03C. It has 5 connectors. CN1 is the 20 pin plug for the input cable. THe others all go to the flexiprints. CN2 is `Data (Odd)' at the top edge, 10 way CN3 is 'Data (Even)' at the bottom edge also 10 way CN4 is 'Scan (Odd) at the RH side of the PCB, 15 way CN5 is 'Scan (Even) at the LH side of the PCB, also 15 way. There are 14 ICs on the driver PCB, along with 6 8-pin optoisolators, a DC-DC converter (on a daughterboard) and the components for an HV power supply. The ICs are : IC1 : 'LS04 IC2 : 'LS86 IC3 : 75462 IC4 : IR3M01 IC5 : 75462 IC6 : 75462 IC7 : 2732 IC8 : LZ91E11 (this is a PQFP surface-mount device, all others are DIPs) IC9 : 7815 (OK, that's a TO220 package!) IC10 : 'LS04 IC11 : 'LS74 IC12 : IR2411 IC13 : 'LS04 IC14 : 'LS04 On the flexiprints are more ICs as follows : On the print conencted ot the 'Data Even' connector : 8 off LZ1030M On the print connected to the 'Data Odd' connector : 8 off LZ1232M On the rpint connected to the 'Scan Odd' connector : 4 off LZ1132BR On the print connected to the 'Scan Even' connector : 4 off LZ1032AM Any thoughts? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 3 11:46:15 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 17:46:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Compaq Portable II - Restoration Problem, Help requested In-Reply-To: <20100102140352.O25676@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jan 2, 10 02:24:50 pm Message-ID: > > On Fri, 1 Jan 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Modern (1.2M 5.25 and 1.44M 3.5) floppy drives come with a "disk > > changed" detection feature (really a "the drive gate was opened-- > > you'd better check" status). 360K and some 720K drives do not. As an aside, I have a machine using standed '360K' 5.25" drives -- that is Tandon TM100s -- which does correclty implent a disk-changed feature. How it does it is to have the 2 drives separately cabled to the controller board and the drives always selected. It then looks for a change-of-state of the write-protect line. This must change if a disk is inserted or removed. Anyone want to guess the machine? I have 3 of them, all different models (one only has on disk drive). > > Microsoft apparently wanted a volume tracking feature that would work > > for all removable media and so devised the above-described method; > > words in the KB say that the VSN in the boot sector isn't reliable > > enough and the implementors apparently didn't want to take the CP/M > > route of checksumming the first few directory entries of a disk. I much prefer having to mount and unmount disks than having an OS that overwrites the boot sector without asking me.... > > A quick over-simplified reminder of WHY, . . . > If you switch diskettes, and then WRITE to it, the system can mess up the > diskette because it "remembered" the directory of the wrong diskette. > Particularly when SMARTDSK is on, with write cacheing! WOuldn't simply re-reading the directory into the cache on any 'open-for-writing' call get round this. Anyone who switches disks when files are open is going to have problems anyway. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 3 13:14:40 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2010 11:14:40 -0800 Subject: Compaq Portable II - Restoration Problem, Help requested In-Reply-To: References: <20100102140352.O25676@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jan 2, 10 02:24:50 pm, Message-ID: <4B407C20.17116.795A48@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jan 2010 at 17:46, Tony Duell wrote: > As an aside, I have a machine using standed '360K' 5.25" drives -- > that is Tandon TM100s -- which does correclty implent a disk-changed > feature. How it does it is to have the 2 drives separately cabled to > the controller board and the drives always selected. It then looks for > a change-of-state of the write-protect line. This must change if a > disk is inserted or removed. > > Anyone want to guess the machine? I have 3 of them, all different > models (one only has on disk drive). Heh, nihil sub sole novum. I implemented that on the Durango F85 in 1979, but I don't think that's the machine you mean. We had a terrible problem with customers simply changing diskettes whenever they wanted. The drives were cabled normally, just selected and the status of the write- protect line checked every few hundred milliseconds. The FDC was a WD1781, so WP status was available all of the time, regardless of the state of the motor. The drives were TM-1004Ms or Micropolis 1610s. If a change in WP status was detected, the open file table was checked. If a floppy had files open only for reading, a flag was set, instructing the OS (not CP/M) to re-read the directory. If a floppy contained drives open for writing, the system locked out any operator action until the floppy was reinserted--and displayed a flashing message on the screen and a repeating beep. Very annoying, but very effective. Many drive vendors offered a door-lock feature, but that could get to be annoying should the OS have a problem. One problem we never did solve was that of the customer powering the machine down, without exiting an application. But that persisted on all systems until someone invented the "soft power" button. --Chuck From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Jan 3 14:08:05 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2010 12:08:05 -0800 Subject: Compaq Portable II - Restoration Problem, Help requested In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B40F925.8010207@mail.msu.edu> Tony Duell wrote: >>> Microsoft apparently wanted a volume tracking feature that would work >>> for all removable media and so devised the above-described method; >>> words in the KB say that the VSN in the boot sector isn't reliable >>> enough and the implementors apparently didn't want to take the CP/M >>> route of checksumming the first few directory entries of a disk. >>> > > I much prefer having to mount and unmount disks than having an OS that > overwrites the boot sector without asking me.... > Well, then don't run Windows 95. Probably good advice on principle. I prefer having intelligently designed hardware that allows software to determine when the disk can be ejected rather than allowing the media to be yanked out at any time. The old Macintosh or Sparcstation floppy drives are one such example. Alas the PC never had such luxury. (At least the later-common Zip drive (despite its other flaws) had a nice "soft" eject button which did the right thing...) Water under the bridge at this point, I suppose since the only people who still use floppy disks are on this mailing list :). Josh From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 3 14:28:45 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 15:28:45 -0500 Subject: Compaq Portable II - Restoration Problem, Help requested In-Reply-To: <4B40F925.8010207@mail.msu.edu> References: <4B40F925.8010207@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <013DD169-EC8F-4221-9306-1A7E2FC8933C@neurotica.com> On Jan 3, 2010, at 3:08 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>>> Microsoft apparently wanted a volume tracking feature that would >>>> work >>>> for all removable media and so devised the above-described method; >>>> words in the KB say that the VSN in the boot sector isn't reliable >>>> enough and the implementors apparently didn't want to take the CP/M >>>> route of checksumming the first few directory entries of a disk. >>>> >> >> I much prefer having to mount and unmount disks than having an OS >> that overwrites the boot sector without asking me.... > > Well, then don't run Windows 95. Probably good advice on principle. > I prefer having intelligently designed hardware that allows > software to determine when the disk can be ejected rather than > allowing the media to be yanked out at any time. The old Macintosh > or Sparcstation floppy drives are one such example. Alas the PC > never had such luxury. (At least the later-common Zip drive > (despite its other flaws) had a nice "soft" eject button which did > the right thing...) > > Water under the bridge at this point, I suppose since the only > people who still use floppy disks are on this mailing list :). ...and LOTS of people using them in test equipment and instrument control and factory stuff, not to mention the fact that the entire computing world doesn't move at the breakneck pace of what's available in retail stores. There are quite a few businesses around here who are running 486 desktops. Floppies will be around for quite a while, at least 3.5" 1.44MB ones. Just sayin'.. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Jan 3 14:43:43 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2010 14:43:43 -0600 Subject: Compaq Portable II - Restoration Problem, Help requested In-Reply-To: <4B3F3235.8090507@jwsss.com> References: <4B3F3235.8090507@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4B41017F.6090706@oldskool.org> jim s wrote: > I received 2 copies of each diskette that Tom created for he and I. My > Compaq Portable III booted both the setup disks successfully. (also no > write protects were killed in the testing) > > The images are created from Soft Paq's that I archived before > ftp.compaq.com had them removed, and are not copies, but rather > generated from those utilities. If anyone needs more information on > those let me know. I have both the 720k and 360k versions. Tom was > careful to use blank diskettes in a high density drive, etc. to create > the 360k ones I tried. Any chance you could make those available somewhere? I have two Portable IIs that I need to restore and would like these on-hand. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 3 15:01:57 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2010 13:01:57 -0800 Subject: Compaq Portable II - Restoration Problem, Help requested In-Reply-To: <013DD169-EC8F-4221-9306-1A7E2FC8933C@neurotica.com> References: , <4B40F925.8010207@mail.msu.edu>, <013DD169-EC8F-4221-9306-1A7E2FC8933C@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B409545.7149.DB92E0@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jan 2010 at 15:28, Dave McGuire wrote: > ...and LOTS of people using them in test equipment and instrument > control and factory stuff, not to mention the fact that the entire > computing world doesn't move at the breakneck pace of what's > available in retail stores. There are quite a few businesses around > here who are running 486 desktops. Floppies will be around for quite > a while, at least 3.5" 1.44MB ones. Indeed. I'm currently trying to talk a customer out of having to do a *new* design using floppies. There's no compelling technical reason for them; he seems to think that his old clients will find comfort in sneakerneting files around. I proposed a design using built-in flash and a 'net connection or a USB hookup. The typical amount of data transfered is normally not more than a few tens of kilobytes; most of a 3.5" DSHD floppy would go unused. How many new PCs even have floppy controllers in them or connectors on the motherboard for a drive? --Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Jan 3 15:03:54 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 13:03:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: (a bit OT) Tube radios In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Jan 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > Doing it with vavles that are still made is going to be hard, since the > vlaves currently made are mostly audio types. If you will allow 'valves > that aare still trivial to find in large quatities' it becomes a lot easier. Doing some more reading, I think I've settled on not doing FM with tubes. I found some material on doing it with discrete transistors. But I still want to play with tubes. I found a page on enhanced AA5 designs that, among other things, get rid of the hot chassis problem. AA5 tubes seem very cheap and easy to find on ebay. > Try to get a set of the 'Impoverished Radio Experimenter' books. One of > them covers making a superhet receiver, including home-made air-cored IF > transformers -- the transformers for such sets are a lot harder to find > new rhan valves. These books mostly cover the amateur short wave bands, > but the principles are much the same for AM broadcast receivers. I'll need something like that for making the required IF coils and antenna. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 3 15:14:59 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 16:14:59 -0500 Subject: Compaq Portable II - Restoration Problem, Help requested In-Reply-To: <4B409545.7149.DB92E0@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B40F925.8010207@mail.msu.edu>, <013DD169-EC8F-4221-9306-1A7E2FC8933C@neurotica.com> <4B409545.7149.DB92E0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <98059F3E-B350-4197-807A-11925B2F5A7E@neurotica.com> On Jan 3, 2010, at 4:01 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> ...and LOTS of people using them in test equipment and instrument >> control and factory stuff, not to mention the fact that the entire >> computing world doesn't move at the breakneck pace of what's >> available in retail stores. There are quite a few businesses around >> here who are running 486 desktops. Floppies will be around for quite >> a while, at least 3.5" 1.44MB ones. > > Indeed. I'm currently trying to talk a customer out of having to do > a *new* design using floppies. There's no compelling technical > reason for them; he seems to think that his old clients will find > comfort in sneakerneting files around. I proposed a design using > built-in flash and a 'net connection or a USB hookup. The typical > amount of data transfered is normally not more than a few tens of > kilobytes; most of a 3.5" DSHD floppy would go unused. Wow...a NEW design with floppies? That surprises me. > How many new PCs even have floppy controllers in them or connectors > on the motherboard for a drive? I honestly don't know, but admittedly the most recent PC hardware I've worked with is in the 2.8-3GHz range. They've had controllers and connectors but no drives. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 3 15:21:05 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2010 13:21:05 -0800 Subject: (a bit OT) Tube radios In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4B4099C1.9373.ED16B3@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jan 2010 at 13:03, David Griffith wrote: > Doing some more reading, I think I've settled on not doing FM with > tubes. I found some material on doing it with discrete transistors. > But I still want to play with tubes. I found a page on enhanced AA5 > designs that, among other things, get rid of the hot chassis problem. > AA5 tubes seem very cheap and easy to find on ebay. Why not start with some simply 1 and 2 tube designs. e.g. TRF, regen/autodyne, superregen? Two-tube superhets are also possible. Dig up some old radio experimenter's books from the 1940's and 50's for suggestions. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 3 15:31:18 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2010 13:31:18 -0800 Subject: Compaq Portable II - Restoration Problem, Help requested In-Reply-To: <98059F3E-B350-4197-807A-11925B2F5A7E@neurotica.com> References: , <4B409545.7149.DB92E0@cclist.sydex.com>, <98059F3E-B350-4197-807A-11925B2F5A7E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B409C26.24196.F673CC@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jan 2010 at 16:14, Dave McGuire wrote: > Wow...a NEW design with floppies? That surprises me. As I was surprised. He also wanted to employ socketed components only. I think Tony would like him. :) --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jan 3 15:43:01 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 13:43:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Disk change and write cacheing (Was: Compaq Portable II - In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100103131919.N60009@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 3 Jan 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > WOuldn't simply re-reading the directory into the cache on any > 'open-for-writing' call get round this. Anyone who switches disks when > files are open is going to have problems anyway. Oh, it got much worse than that! And, you CAN have the wrong disk with identical directory sectors - I made two copies of "The Great American Novel", I put one into the machine and rewrote a big chunk in the middle, that did not change the overall length. Now I put the wrong disk into the drive, . . . In the case of MS-DOS 6.00, that was compounded by separation of file-write V sector-write. SMARTDSK does a through job of screwing that up. Remember the uproar over MS-DOS 6.00, and how DBLSPACE was corrupting disks? SMARTDSK was a fairly simple disk cacheing add-on. When doing WRITE cacheing, SMARTDSK received the write request, told the OS that the write had been successfully completed, and then proceeded to try to do it, when time permitted. Since the OS had been told that the write had been completed, it declared the file closed. "Go ahead and change disks now". If the file write was the last thing that the application program wanted to do (word processing often ends with file write, followed by human turning off the computer and dashing out the door), then the OS would return to the command prompt, before the sectors actually got written! "All done, you can turn it off now" If an error occured during a chached write, it could not be recovered other than RETRY, since the application program had already been assured that the writes had been done, and had moved on. MS-DOS 6.2x attempted to deal with the "corruption caused by disk compression". The repair of DBLSPACE consisted of: Make write cacheing off by default in SMARTDSK. IF SMARTDSK write cacheing is on, do not rearrange the sequence of writes. IF SMARTDSK write cacheing is on, do not return to the OS prompt until the write cache writes have been completed. YES, I AM saying that the brouhaha over "problems with compression" was incorrectly attributed; those particular problems were ALL caused by write cacheing. There can be serious problems from compression; the big problems in 6.00 were NOT. billg tried to explain to Infoworld that the problem was not in the compression; but he didn't want to admit to the other problems, so his statements were misconstrued by Infoworld as attempted intimidation. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun Jan 3 16:12:35 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 23:12:35 +0100 Subject: HP Integral / display schematic ? In-Reply-To: References: <4B405E0C.10904@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Jan 3, 10 10:06:20 am Message-ID: <6F66A429C6EF4946816713A5BED199F1@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: zondag 3 januari 2010 19:12 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: HP Integral / display schematic ? > > > Yes, on 3 such studs. The ribbon cable connects to the extra PCB, > > another 10 cm long ribbon cable goes to the display PCB. > Most signals > > are just passed on, the framing signals is generated on the board. > > > > Both my Integrals have this. > > OK, I took one of my Integrals apart today to have a look... > > This machine has serial number 2521A04575. There are 5 > trheaded studs on the back of the HP-made display hiusing, > none holding anything. A 20 way ribbon cable goes straight > from the Logic B PCB to the display module > > The display module was made by Sharp. It has 2 labels on the > front plastic frame. The LH one reads 'PM505160652'. The RH one reads > '00095-60032 H h21240' (the first part of that looks like an > HP part number to me) > > The display has a conventional PCB on the back, conencted to > the electroluminesxcent panel itself by flexible PCBs which > themselves also have ICs on them. The PC is marked SO262YH > and LJ512U03C. > > It has 5 connectors. CN1 is the 20 pin plug for the input > cable. THe others all go to the flexiprints. > CN2 is `Data (Odd)' at the top edge, 10 way > CN3 is 'Data (Even)' at the bottom edge also 10 way > CN4 is 'Scan (Odd) at the RH side of the PCB, 15 way > CN5 is 'Scan (Even) at the LH side of the PCB, also 15 way. > > There are 14 ICs on the driver PCB, along with 6 8-pin > optoisolators, a DC-DC converter (on a daughterboard) and the > components for an HV power supply. The ICs are : > IC1 : 'LS04 > IC2 : 'LS86 > IC3 : 75462 > IC4 : IR3M01 > IC5 : 75462 > IC6 : 75462 > IC7 : 2732 > IC8 : LZ91E11 (this is a PQFP surface-mount device, all > others are DIPs) > IC9 : 7815 (OK, that's a TO220 package!) IC10 : 'LS04 > IC11 : 'LS74 > IC12 : IR2411 > IC13 : 'LS04 > IC14 : 'LS04 > > On the flexiprints are more ICs as follows : > > On the print conencted ot the 'Data Even' connector : 8 off > LZ1030M On the print connected to the 'Data Odd' connector : > 8 off LZ1232M On the rpint connected to the 'Scan Odd' > connector : 4 off LZ1132BR On the print connected to the > 'Scan Even' connector : 4 off LZ1032AM > > Any thoughts? > > -tony On the net there is also mentioned that Epson made the displays. So may be, there where two or more suppliers for the displays .. I'll check mine this week and will put some pictures online. I think you should look at these patents : US4707692, US4642524 and USD322603(this one is a design patent but interesting) -Rik From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 3 16:25:07 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 22:25:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Compaq Portable II - Restoration Problem, Help requested In-Reply-To: <4B407C20.17116.795A48@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 3, 10 11:14:40 am Message-ID: > > On 3 Jan 2010 at 17:46, Tony Duell wrote: > > > As an aside, I have a machine using standed '360K' 5.25" drives -- > > that is Tandon TM100s -- which does correclty implent a disk-changed > > feature. How it does it is to have the 2 drives separately cabled to > > the controller board and the drives always selected. It then looks for > > a change-of-state of the write-protect line. This must change if a > > disk is inserted or removed. > > > > Anyone want to guess the machine? I have 3 of them, all different > > models (one only has on disk drive). > > Heh, nihil sub sole novum. > > I implemented that on the Durango F85 in 1979, but I don't think > that's the machine you mean. We had a terrible problem with No it's not. > customers simply changing diskettes whenever they wanted. The drives > were cabled normally, just selected and the status of the write- > protect line checked every few hundred milliseconds. The FDC was a > WD1781, so WP status was available all of the time, regardless of the > state of the motor. The drives were TM-1004Ms or Micropolis 1610s. The machine I am thinking of uses a WD1793 or similar. The write-protect checking is done in hardware -- as I said both drives have separate cables back to the contrtoller PCB. The MX jumpers are fitted on the drives, causing them to drive the cable all the time, so the WP signal is always valid from the drive. There's a littlebit of locking involving a flip-flop,. etc that detects if the WP line changes state. (I would have to grab the schematics, it may be it only detects if the WP line goes to the asseted state, not the revers trasnition. That's certain to occur when a disk is inserted anyway). > One problem we never did solve was that of the customer powering the > machine down, without exiting an application. But that persisted on > all systems until someone invented the "soft power" button. YEs. Another of my machines (an early form of 'unix for the masses' -- it has a graphical front end over Uniplus+, but you tend to end up in the shell anyway -- has a touch switch to turn the power on and off For power down, the service processor detects the touch on the switch and then tells the main processor to flush the caches, etc before turning off the main power relay. The identity of the machines/ The first (WP used for disk change) is the HP9826 or HP9836, the latter is the Torch XXX (I think the Whtiechapel MG1 does something similar too). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 3 16:33:56 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 22:33:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: (a bit OT) Tube radios In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Jan 3, 10 01:03:54 pm Message-ID: > > On Sun, 3 Jan 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Doing it with vavles that are still made is going to be hard, since the > > vlaves currently made are mostly audio types. If you will allow 'valves > > that aare still trivial to find in large quatities' it becomes a lot easier. > > Doing some more reading, I think I've settled on not doing FM with tubes. I certainly wouldn't do it as my first valved project... > I found some material on doing it with discrete transistors. But I still > want to play with tubes. I found a page on enhanced AA5 designs that, > among other things, get rid of the hot chassis problem. AA5 tubes seem > very cheap and easy to find on ebay. If it's based on the AA5 design (series-string heaters, HT by half-wave-rectifying the mains), it'll still have a hot common rail. It may not be the chassis, but you can't clip your 'scope and sig-gen onto it. I would strongly recmend using parallel heaters and a fully isolated HT supply . I am sure valves like the 6K8 or 6A7 (I think those are the numbers for frequecny changers), 6K7 (RF or IF amplifer pentode), 6Q7 (detector diodes and audio triode) and 6V6 (output beam tetrode) are not hard to find. 6.3V transformers much still be available so you can get the ehater supply. The HT is more of a problem. A 1:1 isolating trasnformer + halfwave rectifier is the obvious solution I guess. For the little B7G-based valves (OK, '7 pin minatures') used in battery portables over here, I had great success gettign the 90V HT from a 30V trasnformer (easy to get -- a 15-9-15 one, ignore the centre tap) and a voltage doubler circuit. It gives about 84V -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 3 16:39:47 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 22:39:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Compaq Portable II - Restoration Problem, Help requested In-Reply-To: <4B40F925.8010207@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Jan 3, 10 12:08:05 pm Message-ID: > > I much prefer having to mount and unmount disks than having an OS that > > overwrites the boot sector without asking me.... > > > > Well, then don't run Windows 95. Probably good advice on principle. As if I would..... > > I prefer having intelligently designed hardware that allows software to > determine when the disk can be ejected rather than allowing the media to > be yanked out at any time. The old Macintosh or Sparcstation floppy Actually, I object to any system (hardware or software) which thinks it knows what I want to do better than I do. There are times when I may wish to remove a disk with files still open. Sure, let the OS warn me it's a darn bad idea, but don't stop me from doing it if I know it's the thing I want to do. > Water under the bridge at this point, I suppose since the only people > who still use floppy disks are on this mailing list :). Don't bet on it ;-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 3 16:59:39 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 22:59:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP Integral / display schematic ? In-Reply-To: <6F66A429C6EF4946816713A5BED199F1@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Jan 3, 10 11:12:35 pm Message-ID: > On the net there is also mentioned that Epson made the displays. Well, I can't find a maker's name on the actual display, but the PCB and many of the chips (including those on the flexiprints going to the display glass) say 'Sharp' on them. > So may be, there where two or more suppliers for the displays .. I guess there were. Given that the module i have connects directly to the Logic B PCB, I guess that is the one the machine was designed to use. If the Epson display needs the interface PCB to provide the blanking signal, etc, it would suggest that it was hacked in for some reason. It would be interesting to know the serial numbers of machines with each type of display. Was it that the Epson display was used in early machines (implying the Sharp one wasn't available in time, so they had to do the kludge to have working machines), or was it that the Epson display was used in late machines (possibly the Sharp display was discontinued and they had to find a replacement) or what? > I'll check mine this week and will put some pictures online. If necessary I can take mine apart again and photograph it... > I think you should look at these patents : > US4707692, US4642524 and USD322603(this one is a design patent but > interesting) Will do. -tony From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Jan 3 17:09:41 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2010 18:09:41 -0500 Subject: (a bit OT) Tube radios In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B4123B5.4080807@verizon.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> On Sun, 3 Jan 2010, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> >>> Doing it with vavles that are still made is going to be hard, since the >>> vlaves currently made are mostly audio types. If you will allow 'valves >>> that aare still trivial to find in large quatities' it becomes a lot easier. >>> >> Doing some more reading, I think I've settled on not doing FM with tubes. >> > > I certainly wouldn't do it as my first valved project... > > >> I found some material on doing it with discrete transistors. But I still >> want to play with tubes. I found a page on enhanced AA5 designs that, >> among other things, get rid of the hot chassis problem. AA5 tubes seem >> very cheap and easy to find on ebay. >> > > If it's based on the AA5 design (series-string heaters, HT by > half-wave-rectifying the mains), it'll still have a hot common rail. It > may not be the chassis, but you can't clip your 'scope and sig-gen onto > it. > > I would strongly recmend using parallel heaters and a fully isolated HT > supply . I am sure valves like the 6K8 or 6A7 (I think those are the > numbers for frequecny changers), 6K7 (RF or IF amplifer pentode), 6Q7 > (detector diodes and audio triode) and 6V6 (output beam tetrode) are not > hard to find. 6.3V transformers much still be available so you can get > the ehater supply. The HT is more of a problem. A 1:1 isolating > trasnformer + halfwave rectifier is the obvious solution I guess. > > For the little B7G-based valves (OK, '7 pin minatures') used in battery > portables over here, I had great success gettign the 90V HT from a 30V > trasnformer (easy to get -- a 15-9-15 one, ignore the centre tap) and a > voltage doubler circuit. It gives about 84V > > -tony > > > One place to look for simple superhet and other recievers without the high voltages needs: http://www.junkbox.com/electronics/lowvoltagetubes.shtml Having used space charge tubes I can say they are available and fun to work with. Also it's a nice thing to work at 12V and not worry about getting a shock. Allison From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Jan 3 17:22:19 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 15:22:19 -0800 Subject: Compaq Portable II - Restoration Problem, Help requested In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jan 3, 2010, at 2:39 PM, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >> > >> >> I prefer having intelligently designed hardware that allows >> software to >> determine when the disk can be ejected rather than allowing the >> media to >> be yanked out at any time. The old Macintosh or Sparcstation floppy > > Actually, I object to any system (hardware or software) which thinks > it > knows what I want to do better than I do. There are times when I may > wish > to remove a disk with files still open. Sure, let the OS warn me > it's a > darn bad idea, but don't stop me from doing it if I know it's the > thing I > want to do. That's what paperclips were made for. :) Josh > >> Water under the bridge at this point, I suppose since the only people >> who still use floppy disks are on this mailing list :). > > Don't bet on it ;-) > > -tony > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 3 17:57:29 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 18:57:29 -0500 Subject: Compaq Portable II - Restoration Problem, Help requested In-Reply-To: <4B409C26.24196.F673CC@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B409545.7149.DB92E0@cclist.sydex.com>, <98059F3E-B350-4197-807A-11925B2F5A7E@neurotica.com> <4B409C26.24196.F673CC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Jan 3, 2010, at 4:31 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Wow...a NEW design with floppies? That surprises me. > > As I was surprised. He also wanted to employ socketed components > only. I think Tony would like him. :) :-) -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From brianlanning at gmail.com Sun Jan 3 18:04:48 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 18:04:48 -0600 Subject: desoldering problems and technique Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001031604g1fcee094v10087f4a5609419a@mail.gmail.com> Hi Everyone. I'm harvesting parts from an old 386 motherboard... a couple pin headers and a few ISA slots for that 2000 upgrade I mentioned earlier. I'm having a bit of trouble though. I'm using one of those bulb-type solder suckers. The problem is that I think I'm getting 95% of the solder out of there. But the bit of solder that remains is preventing me from removing the parts from the holes. Can anyone offer suggestions to make this go more smoothly? brian From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jan 3 18:08:17 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2010 16:08:17 -0800 Subject: Tek 4404 documentation on eBay Message-ID: <4B413171.6090405@bitsavers.org> Was curious if anyone on the list was the person who drove up the price of the 4404 schematics. I REALLY hate the fact you can no longer tell who you're bidding against. FWIW, I'm NOT going after the unit itself. From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Jan 3 18:18:49 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2010 16:18:49 -0800 Subject: Tandon TM50 drives In-Reply-To: <4B406BD5.8978.39B570@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Nope, metal casting. There was the TM50-1 and -2, 1S and 2S respectively. On 1/3/10 10:05 AM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 2 Jan 2010 at 23:38, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > >> Anyone have any old Tandon TM50 drives floating around? > > Were those the ones that used a plastic body rather than a metal > casting? > > --Chuck > > From ragooman at comcast.net Sun Jan 3 18:46:12 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2010 19:46:12 -0500 Subject: desoldering problems and technique In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381001031604g1fcee094v10087f4a5609419a@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c381001031604g1fcee094v10087f4a5609419a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B413A54.7090103@comcast.net> What I do is add extra heat on the opposite side using an extra pencil tip solder iron , hold the board vertically[or use a vise], it helps control the action this way, and preheat the other side with the desolder iron [with the bulb squeezed tightly] for several seconds and then release. This also helps with the stubborn power pins on any DIP package. =Dan http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ http://www.midatlanticretro.org/ Brian Lanning wrote: > Hi Everyone. I'm harvesting parts from an old 386 motherboard... a > couple pin headers and a few ISA slots for that 2000 upgrade I > mentioned earlier. I'm having a bit of trouble though. I'm using one > of those bulb-type solder suckers. The problem is that I think I'm > getting 95% of the solder out of there. But the bit of solder that > remains is preventing me from removing the parts from the holes. Can > anyone offer suggestions to make this go more smoothly? > > brian > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.431 / Virus Database: 270.14.124/2598 - Release Date: 01/03/10 09:41:00 > > From brianlanning at gmail.com Sun Jan 3 18:57:10 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 18:57:10 -0600 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001031657q1e9845d4yaeea4c5047ef1837@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 6:46 PM, Dan Roganti wrote: > What I do is add extra heat on the opposite side using an extra pencil tip > solder iron , hold the board vertically[or use a vise], it helps control the > action this way, and preheat the other side with the desolder iron [with the > bulb squeezed tightly] for several seconds and then release. This also helps > with the stubborn power pins on any DIP package. In this case, there's plastic in the way on the component side. Adding heat did the trick though. I went out into the garage and grabbed my propane torch (1 quart bottle size). I used it to heat the tip of the desoldering iron. That made the process go much faster since the solder melted instantly. Then when I tried to pull out the part, I heated the solder side of the board. That let the part fall out. Works great when you don't care about ruining the circuit board. :-) The 16-bit part of the isa connector was attached to the 8-bit part. I used a bandsaw to cut through the connectors and free the half I needed. Now it's time to solder the isa connectors to the 2000 motherboard. It's the scary part for me. :-) brian From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Jan 3 19:10:44 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 17:10:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381001031657q1e9845d4yaeea4c5047ef1837@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c381001031657q1e9845d4yaeea4c5047ef1837@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > Now it's time to solder the isa connectors to the 2000 motherboard. > It's the scary part for me. :-) > Does anyone know why the connectors were left off the board in the first place? It seems kind of silly since they went to the effort to route the signals and have the holes drilled. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From ragooman at comcast.net Sun Jan 3 19:36:38 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2010 20:36:38 -0500 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381001031657q1e9845d4yaeea4c5047ef1837@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c381001031657q1e9845d4yaeea4c5047ef1837@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B414626.3070703@comcast.net> Brian Lanning wrote: > In this case, there's plastic in the way on the component side. > In this case, you can also apply extra heat with a pencil tip iron to the side of the desolder tip on the same side of the pcb. > Adding heat did the trick though. I went out into the garage and > grabbed my propane torch (1 quart bottle size). nothing like the brute force method :) =Dan http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ http://www.midatlanticretro.org/ From brianlanning at gmail.com Sun Jan 3 20:02:35 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 20:02:35 -0600 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <4B414626.3070703@comcast.net> References: <6dbe3c381001031657q1e9845d4yaeea4c5047ef1837@mail.gmail.com> <4B414626.3070703@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001031802r426001bdo11e9405acb8de915@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 7:36 PM, Dan Roganti wrote: > nothing like the brute force method :) It was fun. At one point I set the board on fire. I also cut through the connectors and motherboard so that I wouldn't have to desolder the 8-bit parts. Lots of pretty blue/green sparks. :-) I have the connectors soldered to the amiga now. I'm putting it back together. We'll see if it works. brian From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 3 20:38:44 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2010 18:38:44 -0800 Subject: desoldering problems and technique In-Reply-To: <4B413A54.7090103@comcast.net> References: <6dbe3c381001031604g1fcee094v10087f4a5609419a@mail.gmail.com>, <4B413A54.7090103@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4B40E434.22425.20FE81A@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jan 2010 at 19:46, Dan Roganti wrote: > What I do is add extra heat on the opposite side using an extra pencil > tip solder iron , hold the board vertically[or use a vise], it helps > control the action this way, and preheat the other side with the > desolder iron [with the bulb squeezed tightly] for several seconds and > then release. This also helps with the stubborn power pins on any DIP > package. You can give the process an Oriental flavor by heating the board over a charcoal brazier... --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jan 3 21:53:02 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 19:53:02 -0800 Subject: desoldering problems and technique In-Reply-To: <4B40E434.22425.20FE81A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <6dbe3c381001031604g1fcee094v10087f4a5609419a@mail.gmail.com>, , <4B413A54.7090103@comcast.net>, <4B40E434.22425.20FE81A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Fried in peanut oil is the way to go. Dwight > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 18:38:44 -0800 > Subject: Re: desoldering problems and technique > > On 3 Jan 2010 at 19:46, Dan Roganti wrote: > > > What I do is add extra heat on the opposite side using an extra pencil > > tip solder iron , hold the board vertically[or use a vise], it helps > > control the action this way, and preheat the other side with the > > desolder iron [with the bulb squeezed tightly] for several seconds and > > then release. This also helps with the stubborn power pins on any DIP > > package. > > You can give the process an Oriental flavor by heating the board over > a charcoal brazier... > > --Chuck > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222986/direct/01/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Jan 3 21:58:50 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2010 21:58:50 -0600 Subject: Disk change and write cacheing (Was: Compaq Portable II - In-Reply-To: <20100103131919.N60009@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100103131919.N60009@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B41677A.60909@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: > Since the OS had been told that the write had been completed, it declared > the file closed. "Go ahead and change disks now". > If the file write was the last thing that the application program wanted > to do (word processing often ends with file write, followed by human > turning off the computer and dashing out the door), then the OS would > return to the command prompt, before the sectors actually got written! > "All done, you can turn it off now" In defense of Microsoft, disk caches had been deferring writes for years before SMARTDRV. It only became a problem for Microsoft because they deployed this as the default behavior without notifying the user. I'd been using disk caches since the mid 1980s (anyone remember the 35K "Lightening"?) and willingly turned that behavior on since it made working with floppy-only systems tolerable. But the difference with me is that I, an informed user, made that choice and was aware of the behavior. I never lost data... but then again, I never suffered media failure. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Jan 3 22:39:03 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2010 20:39:03 -0800 Subject: Free in Seattle: HP 9826 Message-ID: <4B4170E7.7050809@mail.msu.edu> The never-ending house cleanup continues. I have an HP 9826 computer (http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=1068&st=1), in non-working condition. I picked this up at Boeing Surplus (RIP) a few years back. At that time, it was working but the built in monitor was not doing so well, but the machine worked fine otherwise. I powered it up recently and got nothing out of it aside from some fans spinning. I have no real desire to get it working again (too many other projects), but of course I don't want to see it trashed. It's in worn condition (it clearly got a lot of use at Boeing), but it doesn't look too bad. The "S" keycap is broken off the keyboard but can still be typed. It has the HPL ROM set installed, and 192k of memory, if I'm recalling the amount correctly from when it was running. If there's no interest by the end of the week, I'll be dropping this off at RE-PC in Tukwila. They tend to not scrap "cool" stuff like this so it'll probably end up on sale in their "vintage" department rather than sent to the scrap heap... (I hope). This is in the Seattle area. I'd rather not ship this but if you're willing to foot the bill (it's a heavy machine, HP made some pretty solid equipment back when the HP Way was still alive) we can work that out... - Josh From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jan 3 23:02:16 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 03:02:16 -0200 Subject: Compaq Portable II - Restoration Problem, Help requested References: <4B40F925.8010207@mail.msu.edu> <013DD169-EC8F-4221-9306-1A7E2FC8933C@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <241f01ca8cfc$bdc59410$eed059bb@Alexandre> > ...and LOTS of people using them in test equipment and instrument > control and factory stuff, not to mention the fact that the entire > computing world doesn't move at the breakneck pace of what's available in > retail stores. There are quite a few businesses around here who are > running 486 desktops. Floppies will be around for quite a while, at > least 3.5" 1.44MB ones. Believe it or not, I still use daily my pentium 233MMX notebook with windows 2000. And I can do most jobs I do with my quad core, only slower. I just can't run altium designer :( From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Jan 3 16:51:35 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 17:51:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: Tech tip: check your batteries! Terminals and logic boards In-Reply-To: <4B400EC4.3050906@flippers.com> References: <4B400EC4.3050906@flippers.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Jan 2010, John Robertson wrote: > Anyone who collects laptops, terminals, or motherboards with memory backup > needs to pay attention to the batteries. If the machine is in storage it > would be a good idea to open it up and remove the battery (Ni-Cad or > non-chargeable Alkaline) before it leaks and destroys the electronics. Add Amigas to that list as well! I've never come across an A4000 without damage to the motherboard from a leaking CMOS battery. -- From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 4 05:10:59 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 12:10:59 +0100 Subject: Tech tip: check your batteries! Terminals and logic boards In-Reply-To: References: <4B400EC4.3050906@flippers.com> Message-ID: <1ACCEE72EBA2465F89985C795EC26418@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Steven Hirsch > Verzonden: zondag 3 januari 2010 23:52 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Onderwerp: Re: Tech tip: check your batteries! Terminals and > logic boards > > On Sat, 2 Jan 2010, John Robertson wrote: > > > Anyone who collects laptops, terminals, or motherboards with memory > > backup needs to pay attention to the batteries. If the > machine is in > > storage it would be a good idea to open it up and remove > the battery > > (Ni-Cad or non-chargeable Alkaline) before it leaks and > destroys the electronics. > > Add Amigas to that list as well! I've never come across an > A4000 without damage to the motherboard from a leaking CMOS battery. > > > > -- Isn't this common knowledge ? The first thing I do when I get a new 'artifact' is pulling all the batteries and accu's out. And if cleaning if needed ofcause.. HP and Ti calculator collectors know the impact of leaking batteries for years.. -Rik From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Jan 4 05:59:52 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 06:59:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c381001031657q1e9845d4yaeea4c5047ef1837@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Jan 2010, Gene Buckle wrote: >> Now it's time to solder the isa connectors to the 2000 motherboard. >> It's the scary part for me. :-) >> > Does anyone know why the connectors were left off the board in the first > place? It seems kind of silly since they went to the effort to route the > signals and have the holes drilled. To save $0.50 per slot, I'd imagine. -- From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Jan 4 10:21:00 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 08:21:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c381001031657q1e9845d4yaeea4c5047ef1837@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jan 2010, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Sun, 3 Jan 2010, Gene Buckle wrote: > >>> Now it's time to solder the isa connectors to the 2000 motherboard. >>> It's the scary part for me. :-) >>> >> Does anyone know why the connectors were left off the board in the first >> place? It seems kind of silly since they went to the effort to route the >> signals and have the holes drilled. > > To save $0.50 per slot, I'd imagine. You think they'd save even more by not placing the traces to begin with... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 4 10:23:15 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 11:23:15 -0500 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c381001031657q1e9845d4yaeea4c5047ef1837@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 6:59 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Sun, 3 Jan 2010, Gene Buckle wrote: > >>> Now it's time to solder the isa connectors to the 2000 motherboard. >>> It's the scary part for me. ?:-) >>> >> Does anyone know why the connectors were left off the board in the first >> place? ?It seems kind of silly since they went to the effort to route the >> signals and have the holes drilled. > > To save $0.50 per slot, I'd imagine. That and probably because some 8-bit cards slopped into what later became the spot for the 16-bit extension. That's why most ISA boards still had 1-2 8-bit slots until very late in the game. But C= was notoriously cheap, so I'm sure they jumped at the chance to save a few pennies (and back when the A2000 was being designed, people *did* still use 8-bit serial cards and such). -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 4 10:25:50 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 11:25:50 -0500 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c381001031657q1e9845d4yaeea4c5047ef1837@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > You think they'd save even more by not placing the traces to begin with... The holes cost money, but the less copper you etch, the less etchant you need. Overall, it's a one-time cost to design them in, and a reoccurring cost to drill and plate the holes, but it's a huge cost to re-do the board later if you decide you want 16-bit slots after all. I'm sure the design engineers had to fight for those holes, but in the end, it's not impossible to justify. The traces are going to go from slot to slot to slot anyway (unless you group the empties on the far end). -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 4 10:26:50 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 11:26:50 -0500 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c381001031657q1e9845d4yaeea4c5047ef1837@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7DC22E06-5430-497B-9F4C-9C5786FB4B7C@neurotica.com> On Jan 4, 2010, at 11:21 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>>> Now it's time to solder the isa connectors to the 2000 motherboard. >>>> It's the scary part for me. :-) >>> Does anyone know why the connectors were left off the board in >>> the first place? It seems kind of silly since they went to the >>> effort to route the signals and have the holes drilled. >> >> To save $0.50 per slot, I'd imagine. > > You think they'd save even more by not placing the traces to begin > with... Urr? There's no significant incremental cost there. I'm sure it's calculable, but it'll be in the hundredths of a cent. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Jan 4 10:28:41 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 10:28:41 -0600 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c381001031657q1e9845d4yaeea4c5047ef1837@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001040828p64819d11o12645fc5d71e4908@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 5:59 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> Does anyone know why the connectors were left off the board in the first >> place? ?It seems kind of silly since they went to the effort to route the >> signals and have the holes drilled. > > To save $0.50 per slot, I'd imagine. This kind of thing makes me insane. I would have gladly paid another $1, or even $10, had they just put the parts on the board. I have a hard time believing (i.e. prefer to believe) that this would be purely a cost cutting move. I bet there real reason had to do with the transition from 8-bit to 16-bit add-on cards. With the introduction of the 5170, the form factor for ISA cards changed a bit. The cards got taller by about 3/4". This caused problems with the IBM PC-XT 286, which was a 286 machines with 16-bit slots crammed into a 5160 case, because the case wasn't tall enough. You could plug the 16-bit cards in and they'd work just fine, but you couldn't put the cover back on. :-P Another problem was that third party card makers could get a little more real estate by making the card drop down behind the 8-bit slot making the card about 3/8" taller. Later, when the 16-bit slots appeared, this drop-down interfered with the slot making the cards (structurally if not electrically) incompatible with the longer 16-bit slots. By leaving the 16-bit slot connectors off of the amiga 2000, they could accommodate these boards. And since the only bridge board available at the release of the 2000 was the 8086 bridgeboard which didn't connect to the 16-bit slots, no problem. But designing the motherboard to support it allowed them to add the connectors in later if needed should the market turn that way in a hurry. This is all speculation, but seems to make sense to me. brian From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jan 4 10:38:42 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 11:38:42 -0500 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381001040828p64819d11o12645fc5d71e4908@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c381001031657q1e9845d4yaeea4c5047ef1837@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c381001040828p64819d11o12645fc5d71e4908@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > This kind of thing makes me insane. ?I would have gladly paid another > $1, or even $10, had they just put the parts on the board. Keep in mind that catering to the tiny majority of people like yourself really throws a wrench in the manufacturing engineering works. For every component of a computer there is the obvious cost of the piece, but from there one can find *dozens* of little extra (and sometimes not so little) costs associated with it - everything from extra inventory costs to the extra toilet paper in the bathroom. Having semicustom builds, like including the connectors in this example,*really* amplifies things. >?I have a > hard time believing (i.e. prefer to believe) that this would be purely > a cost cutting move. It is. All companies do it - even Apple and IBM and the other premium equipment manufacturers. When you get into the trenches (the production floor), you see that building computers is much more than stuffing boards. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 4 10:43:59 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 11:43:59 -0500 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381001040828p64819d11o12645fc5d71e4908@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c381001031657q1e9845d4yaeea4c5047ef1837@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c381001040828p64819d11o12645fc5d71e4908@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0E56C59D-A8DF-49D6-B65B-6E94C30E593D@neurotica.com> On Jan 4, 2010, at 11:28 AM, Brian Lanning wrote: >>> Does anyone know why the connectors were left off the board in >>> the first >>> place? It seems kind of silly since they went to the effort to >>> route the >>> signals and have the holes drilled. >> >> To save $0.50 per slot, I'd imagine. > > This kind of thing makes me insane. I would have gladly paid another > $1, or even $10, had they just put the parts on the board. I have a > hard time believing (i.e. prefer to believe) that this would be purely > a cost cutting move. > > I bet there real reason had to do with the transition from 8-bit to > 16-bit add-on cards. ... It was definitely a cost-cutting move. Back in 2003 or so I was working on a commercial product for mass production. After the prototypes were working great, the owner of our very small company (a tyrant with no common sense whatsoever) sent my design to a "cost engineer" to "engineer the cost out of it". (his words) It came back with such wonderful "improvements" as swapping out those nice low-ESR capacitors in my switching regulators with cheaper ones whose ESR was through the roof, which of course rendered the power supplies nonfunctional. Without the power supplies, I obviously didn't get any farther in testing. ;) It's amazing what management types will do to increase their profit margins by even a tiny bit. I'm sure in production quantities that the cost savings was much less than $0.50 per slot, but still, even if it were $0.10 per slot, add that up over a production run of 25,000 boards and you end up with another few thousand bucks that the suit can later arrange to steal from the company. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Jan 4 10:49:05 2010 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 08:49:05 -0800 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c381001031657q1e9845d4yaeea4c5047ef1837@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c381001040828p64819d11o12645fc5d71e4908@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <57AF2C12-ADA2-4D4A-8BD3-FFB64C0048E5@shiresoft.com> On Jan 4, 2010, at 8:38 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> This kind of thing makes me insane. I would have gladly paid another >> $1, or even $10, had they just put the parts on the board. > > Keep in mind that catering to the tiny majority of people like > yourself really throws a wrench in the manufacturing engineering > works. For every component of a computer there is the obvious cost of > the piece, but from there one can find *dozens* of little extra (and > sometimes not so little) costs associated with it - everything from > extra inventory costs to the extra toilet paper in the bathroom. > Having semicustom builds, like including the connectors in this > example,*really* amplifies things. SKUs cost real $'s. And that's just to have it even if you never build one. It's part of the process of having a trackable production system. Depending upon the company this can be quite significant. Those are $'s that are part of the NRE and have to be recouped in order to make a profit. When I was at IBM I think the oft quoted number for a new part number (no part, no system, just adding and tracking the #) was $50,000. Now think about how many parts are in a system (note that sub-assemblies have their own part number). SKUs were more....much more. > >> I have a >> hard time believing (i.e. prefer to believe) that this would be purely >> a cost cutting move. > > It is. All companies do it - even Apple and IBM and the other premium > equipment manufacturers. When you get into the trenches (the > production floor), you see that building computers is much more than > stuffing boards. Not to mention having to track multiple SKUs and do all of the testing which may need to include agency tests (ie UL, FCC, etc). $$$$$'s. TTFN - Guy From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Jan 4 10:52:45 2010 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 08:52:45 -0800 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <0E56C59D-A8DF-49D6-B65B-6E94C30E593D@neurotica.com> References: <6dbe3c381001031657q1e9845d4yaeea4c5047ef1837@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c381001040828p64819d11o12645fc5d71e4908@mail.gmail.com> <0E56C59D-A8DF-49D6-B65B-6E94C30E593D@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Jan 4, 2010, at 8:43 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 4, 2010, at 11:28 AM, Brian Lanning wrote: >>>> Does anyone know why the connectors were left off the board in the first >>>> place? It seems kind of silly since they went to the effort to route the >>>> signals and have the holes drilled. >>> >>> To save $0.50 per slot, I'd imagine. >> >> This kind of thing makes me insane. I would have gladly paid another >> $1, or even $10, had they just put the parts on the board. I have a >> hard time believing (i.e. prefer to believe) that this would be purely >> a cost cutting move. >> >> I bet there real reason had to do with the transition from 8-bit to >> 16-bit add-on cards. > ... > > It's amazing what management types will do to increase their profit margins by even a tiny bit. I'm sure in production quantities that the cost savings was much less than $0.50 per slot, but still, even if it were $0.10 per slot, add that up over a production run of 25,000 boards and you end up with another few thousand bucks that the suit can later arrange to steal from the company. Being associated with high volume products (think 1,000,000's per quarter) even saving $0.001 per unit adds up. It's not the cost of the product, it's the multiplier. I've had to swallow hard on some HW choices that made the HW cheaper but made the SW more complex just because the multiplier was so large. TTFN - Guy From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Mon Jan 4 11:28:48 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 09:28:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c381001031657q1e9845d4yaeea4c5047ef1837@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <297168.96167.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Good point... you would think they would have opted to make the ISA slots a completely separate board from the mainboard to save some coin... and then sell that with the bridgeboard instead of including it with the motherboard. Those extra ISA slots take up a tremendous amount of real estate. ________________________________ From: Ethan Dicks To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Mon, January 4, 2010 10:23:15 AM Subject: Re: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 6:59 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Sun, 3 Jan 2010, Gene Buckle wrote: > >>> Now it's time to solder the isa connectors to the 2000 motherboard. >>> It's the scary part for me. :-) >>> >> Does anyone know why the connectors were left off the board in the first >> place? It seems kind of silly since they went to the effort to route the >> signals and have the holes drilled. > > To save $0.50 per slot, I'd imagine. That and probably because some 8-bit cards slopped into what later became the spot for the 16-bit extension. That's why most ISA boards still had 1-2 8-bit slots until very late in the game. But C= was notoriously cheap, so I'm sure they jumped at the chance to save a few pennies (and back when the A2000 was being designed, people *did* still use 8-bit serial cards and such). -ethan From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Jan 4 11:42:05 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 11:42:05 -0600 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <297168.96167.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <6dbe3c381001031657q1e9845d4yaeea4c5047ef1837@mail.gmail.com> <297168.96167.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001040942k1cc68218n860fbcad9d1f23cf@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 11:28 AM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > Good point... you would think they would have opted to make the ISA slots a completely >separate board from the mainboard to save some coin... and then sell that with the >bridgeboard instead of including it with the motherboard. Those extra ISA slots take up a >tremendous amount of real estate. Yeah, the board is huge. If you look at the Amiga 2000 case, the motherboard occupies the entire footprint of the case including under the drives and power supply. In the amiga 3000 and 4000 (and T models), they did switch to riser boards. Having the slots there made for an interesting upgrades though. Someone made a card called the Golden Gate "bridgeboard" (not to be confused with the Golden Gate 386/486 bridgeboards) that simply bridged the slots without providing a PC clone. The idea was that with extra drivers, you could put ISA cards in and access them directly from the amiga. I believe the slots were also powered all the time because there were some 8-bit ISA time base corrector boards that were designed to go in the amiga, just taking power from the ISA bus. The interacted with the rest of the system through cabling. brian From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Jan 4 11:51:47 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 09:51:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <291478.2509.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 1/4/10, William Donzelli wrote: > > This kind of thing makes me > insane. I would have gladly paid another > > $1, or even $10, had they just put the parts on the > board. > > Keep in mind that catering to the tiny majority of people > like > yourself really throws a wrench in the manufacturing > engineering > works. For every component of a computer there is the > obvious cost of > the piece, but from there one can find *dozens* of little > extra (and > sometimes not so little) costs associated with it - > everything from > extra inventory costs to the extra toilet paper in the > bathroom. > Having semicustom builds, like including the connectors in > this > example,*really* amplifies things. > Yeah, and besides, Commodore knew at this point that if people wanted a feature in their computers badly enough, they'd solder it in themselves. At least Commodore was good at giving users the framework and the information they needed to do it. For example, look how easy it is to add RS-232 to a C64. All you need is an inverter and some level shifters. The routines are already in ROM to allow that to work. Also, how many people actually *bought* the bridgeboard, anyway? I have seen dozens of 2000's, but I've never once seen a PC bridgeboard. -Ian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 4 11:55:12 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 12:55:12 -0500 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <291478.2509.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <291478.2509.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 12:51 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Also, how many people actually *bought* the bridgeboard, anyway? I have seen dozens of 2000's, but I've never once seen a PC bridgeboard. I have a couple of them, but I got them in a pile of bits from a defunct C= dealer. I don't recall running into them in the wild, so to speak. -ethan From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Jan 4 11:59:25 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 11:59:25 -0600 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <291478.2509.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <291478.2509.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001040959s6e2f5009ld2e6eb3a37656179@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 11:51 AM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Also, how many people actually *bought* the bridgeboard, anyway? I have seen dozens of > 2000's, but I've never once seen a PC bridgeboard. The 8086 bridgeboard (from watching ebay) seems to be really common. One pops up about once a month and usually goes for low prices. As you go up the scale, they get increasingly more rare. The 286 board appears from time to time. But the golden gate boards with 486s almost never show up... maybe once a year. They're more likely to be traded on the amiga forums. A tested/working 486 golden gate board with the external video breakout box, I bet, would go for around $500 on ebay now. brian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 4 12:01:43 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 13:01:43 -0500 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381001040942k1cc68218n860fbcad9d1f23cf@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c381001031657q1e9845d4yaeea4c5047ef1837@mail.gmail.com> <297168.96167.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <6dbe3c381001040942k1cc68218n860fbcad9d1f23cf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 12:42 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > Having the slots there made for an interesting upgrades though. > Someone made a card called the Golden Gate "bridgeboard" (not to be > confused with the Golden Gate 386/486 bridgeboards) that simply > bridged the slots without providing a PC clone. ?The idea was that > with extra drivers, you could put ISA cards in and access them > directly from the amiga. If you are interested in them, you can get them from me ;-) I purchased the design from the creator when he graduated from college and turned them out under the name "GG2 Bus+" (to distance myself from the confusion from the original name). I still have them in stock, but demand softened precipitously after C= went under. I did manage to sell a few bare boards to some enthusiastic hobbyists in Sweden a couple of years ago - they got all their own parts and copied the GALs from an existing board (no security bit), but it's been a long time since anyone really cared about installing a 10BaseT card in an Amiga (there's only one 100BaseT ISA card I know of, and it's weird and rare and there's no driver for it anyway). Essentially, there's drivers for IDE disks (yawn), 10BaseT networking (popular), serial and parallel (occasionally used in the days of dialup and local printers). There's also support in at least one DOS-oriented PC emulator (someone used it to talk to an FM tuner card and an EPROM programmer). The hardware supports VGA interfaces, but the low bandwidth and a few other things made it a non-starter. There's also some cacheing issues with Zorro-II space and most/all of the 68060 cards, so people who were maxing out their Amigas at the end were essentially not able to use this product. One mod I never did was to remove VGA/shared ISA memory support and shrink the board back to a 64K AUTOCONFIG block. That would have fixed the issue with caching at least, but there wasn't enough demand to fund the effort by that point. -ethan From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Jan 4 12:31:19 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 12:31:19 -0600 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c381001031657q1e9845d4yaeea4c5047ef1837@mail.gmail.com> <297168.96167.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <6dbe3c381001040942k1cc68218n860fbcad9d1f23cf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001041031x10377859g933734182b6eabb0@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 12:01 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > If you are interested in them, you can get them from me ;-) ? ?I > purchased the design from the creator when he graduated from college > and turned them out under the name "GG2 Bus+" (to distance myself from > the confusion from the original name). ?I still have them in stock, > but demand softened precipitously after C= went under. What do you want for one? Although I probably can't use it at the moment since I have a 286 bridgeboard. It would still be nice to play with one. > Essentially, there's drivers for IDE disks (yawn), >10BaseT networking > (popular), serial and parallel (occasionally used in the days of > dialup and local printers). IDE is a bigger deal now than you might think. I have a buddha board which is basically an IDE controller in a zorro 2 slot. Works great. But if you could package one of your bridge boards with a throw-away generic ide/port combo board, a network board, and a driver disk, (you should throw in a compact flash to IDE adapter also) I bet you'd get quite a few takers on the amiga boards. 10baseT on the 2000 is not so cheap these days either. The ability to read/write to high density floppy drives from that ide controller would be welcome too. Could you auto-boot the ide disk? > ?There's also support in at least one > DOS-oriented PC emulator (someone used it to talk to an FM tuner card > and an EPROM programmer). ?The hardware supports VGA interfaces, but > the low bandwidth and a few other things made it a non-starter. That's too bad. Desktop resolution and that horizontal scan rate, I think, are the amiga's Achilles' heal. Although NTSC/PAL comparability is what made the amiga so popular with the video houses. > There's also some cacheing issues with Zorro-II space and most/all of > the 68060 cards, so people who were maxing out their Amigas at the end > were essentially not able to use this product. Anyone with a 68060 processor board is likely to have a mediator anyway, which means PCI slots. brian From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 4 12:44:51 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 10:44:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Disk change and write cacheing (Was: Compaq Portable II - In-Reply-To: <4B41677A.60909@oldskool.org> References: <20100103131919.N60009@shell.lmi.net> <4B41677A.60909@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20100104101640.S5128@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 3 Jan 2010, Jim Leonard wrote: > In defense of Microsoft, disk caches had been deferring writes for years > before SMARTDRV. It only became a problem for Microsoft because they > deployed this as the default behavior without notifying the user. They also deployed it at the same time as disk compression, which people were scared of. When user actions caused deferred writes to corrupt disks, the disk compression was blamed. Infoworld, who by that time no longer had competence in testing, set up a loop to do some macros in word processing, some macros in a spreadsheet, maybe a file copy or two, a FULL RESET, REPEAT. That, of course, resulted in corruption, since there were deferred writes waiting each time the RESET was done. Infoworld had literally dozens of articles about "Disk compression damages disks". billg contacted the editor and said that their test suite was flawed (TRUE!). Infoworld ran an editorial accusing billg of intimidation. (probably TRUE, but not in this specific case) They also, by default, didn't give users a choice. The installation of Windoze 3.10 installed and turned on SMARTDRV. On one machine, I encountered a disk hardware error towards the end, while it was installing fonts (a consistent error that neither SSTOR nor SPINRITE could find!). Normally, I would record the filename of the file that had a problem, "IGNORE" the failed write, complete the installation, rename that file on the disk "BADSECT", and manually install that file. But, because the file "had already been successfully written", "IGNORE" was not an option. Nor "ABORT". Nor "FAIL". The ONLY option was "RETRY". NO WAY OUT. Only way out was to reboot. Since SMARTDRV rearranged writes, the DIRectory had not been written yet, and after reboot, there was no trace in the directory of the failed attempts, nor any record of WHERE the error had been. I was in the 3.10 "Beta" program, so I called MICROS~1. How to disable SMARTDRV for WIN3.10 installation: "can't be done" I told them that inability to operate without SMARTDRV created SERIOUS problems, that would probably result in recalled products. (Sure'nuff, MS-DOS 6.2x had to be created, and distributed FREE) "You have a hardware problem, nothing that WE can do about it." I created a stub program, renamed it "SMARTDRV.EXE" (so that WIN3.10 could install THAT, and continued without SMARTDRV. and I created a "BADSECT" file occupying the location with the disk error. > I'd been using disk caches since the mid 1980s (anyone remember the 35K > "Lightening"?) and willingly turned that behavior on since it made > working with floppy-only systems tolerable. But the difference with me > is that I, an informed user, made that choice and was aware of the > behavior. I never lost data... but then again, I never suffered media > failure. Fortunately, I hit an "irreparable" problem in the WIN3.10 installation. Once I knew what was going on, I didn't have any problems. WRITE cacheing requires an informed user. BTW, any NEGATIVE feedback would get you dropped from the "Beta" program, which is absolutely opposite of what a "Beta" program needs to be. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Jan 4 13:02:20 2010 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 14:02:20 -0500 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Brian Lanning writes: >On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 5:59 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: >>> Does anyone know why the connectors were left off the board in the first >>> place? ?It seems kind of silly since they went to the effort to route the >>> signals and have the holes drilled. >> >> To save $0.50 per slot, I'd imagine. >This kind of thing makes me insane. I would have gladly paid another >$1, or even $10, had they just put the parts on the board. I have a >hard time believing (i.e. prefer to believe) that this would be purely >a cost cutting move. More insane things have happened. Witness the VAXstation II RC, where RC stood for "reduced configuration". DEC took a perfectly normal Q-bus Backplane, with installed edge connectors, then filled the edge connectors with epoxy to prevent users from installing third-party peripherals. All to sell at a price lower than the normal Microvax II's (about $6K IIRC.) When DEC found out that folks were taking advantage of them by buying a VAXStation II RC and swapping out the backplane, the responded by pouring The epoxy so that it glued the backplane to the chassis, as well. A few folks Got these and then managed to chisel out the old backplane. Tim. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 4 13:20:45 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 14:20:45 -0500 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381001041031x10377859g933734182b6eabb0@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c381001031657q1e9845d4yaeea4c5047ef1837@mail.gmail.com> <297168.96167.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <6dbe3c381001040942k1cc68218n860fbcad9d1f23cf@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c381001041031x10377859g933734182b6eabb0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 1:31 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > What do you want for one? I've been selling them at $99 each, single quantities, with quantity discounts starting at q.5 to encourage groups to buy (with combined shipping, naturally). > Although I probably can't use it at the moment since I have a 286 > bridgeboard. ?It would still be nice to play with one. It's a good solid design, and the only real problem is Zorro II caching - not a problem with 68000s, naturally, and Enforcer works fine with '020 and '030 and most '040 boards. I think Enforcer works with some or most '060 boards, but since it interferes with most of the caching parameters, it robs the machine of most of its performance advantage. >> Essentially, there's drivers for IDE disks (yawn), > > IDE is a bigger deal now than you might think. ?I have a buddha board > which is basically an IDE controller in a zorro 2 slot. ?Works great. > But if you could package one of your bridge boards with a throw-away > generic ide/port combo board, a network board, and a driver disk, (you > should throw in a compact flash to IDE adapter also) I bet you'd get > quite a few takers on the amiga boards. Perhaps, and the Flash adapter is a good idea, but the limitation is that the IDE interface is old-school 16-bits-at-a-time-no-DMA, so really slow, and there's a definite limitation on disk size (I forget exactly, but probably around 1GB or so). >?10baseT on the 2000 is not so cheap these days either. It's not, and that's been the bread-and-butter of this design. > The ability to read/write to high density > floppy drives from that ide controller would be welcome too. Not possible. The Amiga lacks onboard DMA channels and this board does not provide any. No ISA DMA is supported. > Could you auto-boot the ide disk? Not without boot ROMs that knew what to do with it, so no. The GG2 Bus+ implements AUTOCONFIG with a GAL, not an EPROM, so it'd be a major change to support booting. Because of the non-DMA and the disk size, I don't think it's a desirable-enough feature to warrant a design change. > Anyone with a 68060 processor board is likely to have a mediator > anyway, which means PCI slots. Long ago, there were plenty of A4000s with '060 boards. Those were the folks that weren't viable customers. These days, anyone with PCI slots isn't going to care about an ISA adapter. The sweet spot for the GG2 Bus+ is an A2000 or lightly-loaded A3000 or unexpanded A4000. Most people aren't willing to drop the money on a network card for those machines, so unless you have a burning need to add a couple of serial ports or open up your Amiga parallel port for a digitizer and still want to attach a local Centronics printer, the GG2 Bus+ is probably not particularly desirable, thus the sales cliff 8-9 years ago. -ethan From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Jan 4 13:21:04 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 13:21:04 -0600 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001041121m7ba8ea7dva1d97cff12a30a27@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 1:02 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > More insane things have happened. Witness the VAXstation II RC, where > RC stood for "reduced configuration". DEC took a perfectly normal Q-bus > Backplane, with installed edge connectors, then filled the edge connectors > ?with epoxy to prevent users from installing third-party peripherals. All > to sell at a price lower than the normal Microvax II's (about $6K IIRC.) > > When DEC found out that folks were taking advantage of them by buying a > VAXStation II RC and swapping out the backplane, the responded by pouring > The epoxy so that it glued the backplane to the chassis, as well. A few folks > Got these and then managed to chisel out the old backplane. Sounds like the nintendo wii modding scene. Nintendo started putting epoxy on the key chip the modders were targeting. Turns out you can heat up the epoxy with a small torch and it pops right off. brian From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Mon Jan 4 13:24:12 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 11:24:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <291478.2509.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <291478.2509.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <919948.3842.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Not many, I'd wager. I've seen exactly two in the wild ever. One was installed in an A2000HD system from the dealer (an 8088 one). Another I found in a pile o' parts (80286 one). ________________________________ From: Mr Ian Primus To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Mon, January 4, 2010 11:51:47 AM Subject: Re: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) Yeah, and besides, Commodore knew at this point that if people wanted a feature in their computers badly enough, they'd solder it in themselves. At least Commodore was good at giving users the framework and the information they needed to do it. For example, look how easy it is to add RS-232 to a C64. All you need is an inverter and some level shifters. The routines are already in ROM to allow that to work. Also, how many people actually *bought* the bridgeboard, anyway? I have seen dozens of 2000's, but I've never once seen a PC bridgeboard. -Ian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 4 13:31:50 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 14:31:50 -0500 Subject: Anti-mod measures (was Re: desoldering problems and technique) Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 2:21 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > Sounds like the nintendo wii modding scene. ?Nintendo started putting > epoxy on the key chip the modders were targeting. ?Turns out you can > heat up the epoxy with a small torch and it pops right off. Or the epoxy or cut pins, etc., on the iOpener. Some of the "fixes" did make it difficult to mod the iOpener, but in the end, none were successful in keeping out the determined geeks. It did take a while to pick that epoxy out, but it can be done. ;-) -ethan From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Jan 4 13:36:36 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 11:36:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Anti-mod measures (was Re: desoldering problems and technique) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <237380.4935.qm@web52606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 1/4/10, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Sounds like the nintendo wii modding scene. Nintendo > started putting > > epoxy on the key chip the modders were targeting. > Turns out you can > > heat up the epoxy with a small torch and it pops right > off. > > Or the epoxy or cut pins, etc., on the iOpener. > > Some of the "fixes" did make it difficult to mod the > iOpener, but in > the end, none were successful in keeping out the determined > geeks. > > It did take a while to pick that epoxy out, but it can be > done. ;-) Or the early Commodore PET computers with holes drilled through the pads for additional RAM chips. Of course, once again, nothing really stopping a determined hardware hacker from bridging wires to the severed traces... -Ian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 4 13:46:12 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 14:46:12 -0500 Subject: Anti-mod measures (was Re: desoldering problems and technique) In-Reply-To: <237380.4935.qm@web52606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <237380.4935.qm@web52606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 2:36 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Or the early Commodore PET computers with holes drilled through the pads for additional RAM chips. Of course, once again, nothing really stopping a determined hardware hacker from bridging wires to the severed traces... I have one of those - I wouldn't call them early - it was the "dynamic PET" model that could take one or two rows of 4Kx1 or 16Kx1 DRAMs, so long after the SRAM PETs (which I _would_ call early). If you bought the 16K version, they sent you a board with a bunch of ~6mm holes between the unused RAM spots. For mine, I could run all the missing wires and drop in 8x 4116 chips, but I happen to have a CPU-socket ROM/RAM adapter, so I can just supply the missing memory with one SRAM and get multiple ROM versions for "free". -ethan From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Jan 4 14:06:04 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 15:06:04 -0500 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) References: <291478.2509.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <919948.3842.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0F7C7555F26F4439A862C4D631D501A6@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "geoffrey oltmans" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 2:24 PM Subject: Re: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) > Not many, I'd wager. I've seen exactly two in the wild ever. One was > installed in an A2000HD system from the dealer (an 8088 one). Another I > found in a pile o' parts (80286 one). > > My used A2000 came with a 286 bridgeboard and 5.25" floppy drive in factory config (it was a 2000HD badged unitt with a 2091 SCSI card installed. If we go by ebay then 90% of A2000's were sold with Toasters in them. From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Jan 4 14:15:43 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 14:15:43 -0600 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <0F7C7555F26F4439A862C4D631D501A6@dell8300> References: <291478.2509.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <919948.3842.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <0F7C7555F26F4439A862C4D631D501A6@dell8300> Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001041215i26859a00s3735c9cc8228e68f@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 2:06 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > If we go by ebay then 90% of A2000's were sold with Toasters in them. yeah, that's how i got mine. I think it's because the home users scrapped their machines in favor of 486s or Macs, but the video houses kept right on using their toasters. brian From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Mon Jan 4 14:22:10 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 12:22:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <0F7C7555F26F4439A862C4D631D501A6@dell8300> References: <291478.2509.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <919948.3842.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <0F7C7555F26F4439A862C4D631D501A6@dell8300> Message-ID: <94837.49471.qm@web83914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> While I wouldn't argue 90%, I'd wager that a significantly large percentage of 2000s were sold as Toaster machines. They were astronomically expensive for what you got when they were available. ________________________________ From: Teo Zenios To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Mon, January 4, 2010 2:06:04 PM Subject: Re: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) My used A2000 came with a 286 bridgeboard and 5.25" floppy drive in factory config (it was a 2000HD badged unitt with a 2091 SCSI card installed. If we go by ebay then 90% of A2000's were sold with Toasters in them. From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Jan 4 14:35:23 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 15:35:23 -0500 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) References: <291478.2509.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com><919948.3842.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><0F7C7555F26F4439A862C4D631D501A6@dell8300> <94837.49471.qm@web83914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0218876D6741D3B5D76A2FDFF302AA@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "geoffrey oltmans" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 3:22 PM Subject: Re: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) > While I wouldn't argue 90%, I'd wager that a significantly large > percentage of 2000s were sold as Toaster machines. They were > astronomically expensive for what you got when they were available. > > The 2000 was a workhorse Amiga, I would expect them to sell hundreds of thousands of them (anyone have production numbers?). Were there more then 30K Toaster boards sold? Quite a few A2000 Toasters on ebay are just generic 2000's that somebody stuck a Toaster card into because it makes the whole setup worth more. Those systems are missing the stickers you stuck to the expansion slot to label all the ports. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 4 14:37:58 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 21:37:58 +0100 Subject: HP Integral / display schematic ? In-Reply-To: References: <6F66A429C6EF4946816713A5BED199F1@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Jan 3, 10 11:12:35 pm Message-ID: > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: maandag 4 januari 2010 0:00 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: HP Integral / display schematic ? > > > On the net there is also mentioned that Epson made the displays. > > Well, I can't find a maker's name on the actual display, but > the PCB and many of the chips (including those on the > flexiprints going to the display glass) say 'Sharp' on them. > > > So may be, there where two or more suppliers for the displays .. > > I guess there were. Given that the module i have connects > directly to the Logic B PCB, I guess that is the one the > machine was designed to use. If the Epson display needs the > interface PCB to provide the blanking signal, etc, it would > suggest that it was hacked in for some reason. > > It would be interesting to know the serial numbers of > machines with each type of display. Was it that the Epson > display was used in early machines (implying the Sharp one > wasn't available in time, so they had to do the kludge to > have working machines), or was it that the Epson display was > used in late machines (possibly the Sharp display was > discontinued and they had to find a replacement) or what? > > > I'll check mine this week and will put some pictures online. > > If necessary I can take mine apart again and photograph it... > > > I think you should look at these patents : > > US4707692, US4642524 and USD322603(this one is a design patent but > > interesting) > > Will do. > > -tony I'll placed the picture online this evening. Quick pics but I'll think they do. www.flickr.com/hp-fix Reading your description of your display I think mine is the same. -Rik From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Jan 4 14:45:14 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 14:45:14 -0600 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <8D0218876D6741D3B5D76A2FDFF302AA@dell8300> References: <291478.2509.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <919948.3842.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <0F7C7555F26F4439A862C4D631D501A6@dell8300> <94837.49471.qm@web83914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8D0218876D6741D3B5D76A2FDFF302AA@dell8300> Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001041245x5cbf5002t169b1e85d25080ee@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > The 2000 was a workhorse Amiga, I would expect them to sell hundreds of > thousands of them (anyone have production numbers?). Were there more then > 30K Toaster boards sold? > > Quite a few A2000 Toasters on ebay are just generic 2000's that somebody > stuck a Toaster card into because it makes the whole setup worth more. Those > systems are missing the stickers you stuck to the expansion slot to label > all the ports. If I remember correctly, the toaster was available as a separate upgrade for the 2000. But NewTek also sold 2000s pre-installed with toaster. I think those machines are the ones with the stickers on the front and back, and maybe the color-coded keyboards. Maybe the toaster board came with those stickers in the box, and people just didn't put them on. I'm not sure. But my 2000/toaster came from a video editing company that went out of business. It was just a 2000 with a toaster in it (as well as a few other things), no stickers. brian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 4 14:40:01 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 20:40:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Jan 4, 10 06:59:52 am Message-ID: > > On Sun, 3 Jan 2010, Gene Buckle wrote: > > >> Now it's time to solder the isa connectors to the 2000 motherboard. > >> It's the scary part for me. :-) > >> > > Does anyone know why the connectors were left off the board in the first > > place? It seems kind of silly since they went to the effort to route the > > signals and have the holes drilled. > > To save $0.50 per slot, I'd imagine. There were some 8-bit ISA cards which will not fit in a 16 bit slot -- the board hangs down in front of the edge conenctor fingers and it bangs into the extra part of the connecotr. One of the original PC video cards is like that, I forget if it's the MDA or CGA one. That's why there are 2 8-bit slots in the 5170, I think (in the PC/XT286, there actually wans't room on the motherboard for the extra connectors -- the 8 bit slots have chips where the extra connector would have been). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 4 15:08:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 21:08:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP Integral / display schematic ? In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jan 3, 10 10:59:39 pm Message-ID: > > I think you should look at these patents : > > US4707692, US4642524 and USD322603(this one is a design patent but > > interesting) > > Will do. Have done :-). I guess that explains the 5 or so adjustable inductors on the PCB. What I find curious, though is that the patents were granted to HP, but the display module says 'Sharp' all over it. I could understnad HP buying the 'glass' from SHarp and putting their own deiver board on it, but getting Sharp to make the board with HP technology? Seems odd. There are plenty of times where HP have bought in subassemblies and added their own electronics, of course -- the disk drive in the 9885 is a Shugart 801 chassis with HP electronics, the Tandon TM100s (HP9130) used in the HP9836, etc are 'HPed' by having gold-plated PCBs, etc. Anyway, getting back to this display module, I have tracked down data on some of the obscure ICs : On the PCB, IR3M01 is a SMPSU controller similar to more common ones but with a different pinout. IR2411 is 7 darlington drivers, similar to the ULN2003 etc Which leaves the LZ91E11. Alas I suspect this is some kind of gate array/ULA. I cna find nothing on it. On the flexiprint, LZ1132BM and LZ1032AM are 32-output high-voltage drivers, with a shift register on the input. LZ1030M is just 32 diodes, common anode connection LZ1232M is described as 'Dot Matrix Display Driver'. I can find nothing more on it (I've found pinouts for the other ICs on the flexiprint). When I've completed the current projects, I may well take another serious look at that display module. -tony From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Mon Jan 4 15:35:06 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 13:35:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381001041245x5cbf5002t169b1e85d25080ee@mail.gmail.com> References: <291478.2509.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <919948.3842.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <0F7C7555F26F4439A862C4D631D501A6@dell8300> <94837.49471.qm@web83914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8D0218876D6741D3B5D76A2FDFF302AA@dell8300> <6dbe3c381001041245x5cbf5002t169b1e85d25080ee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <144365.61206.qm@web83915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> That's true... the Toaster was originally sold as an upgrade to the 2000 (and later 4000). Eventually they licensed the 2000 and rebadged it as a Video Toaster 2000 machine (with the aforementioned stickers), but certainly wasn't like that when the Toaster originally came out. Probably a year later or so. ________________________________ From: Brian Lanning To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Mon, January 4, 2010 2:45:14 PM Subject: Re: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > The 2000 was a workhorse Amiga, I would expect them to sell hundreds of > thousands of them (anyone have production numbers?). Were there more then > 30K Toaster boards sold? > > Quite a few A2000 Toasters on ebay are just generic 2000's that somebody > stuck a Toaster card into because it makes the whole setup worth more. Those > systems are missing the stickers you stuck to the expansion slot to label > all the ports. If I remember correctly, the toaster was available as a separate upgrade for the 2000. But NewTek also sold 2000s pre-installed with toaster. I think those machines are the ones with the stickers on the front and back, and maybe the color-coded keyboards. Maybe the toaster board came with those stickers in the box, and people just didn't put them on. I'm not sure. But my 2000/toaster came from a video editing company that went out of business. It was just a 2000 with a toaster in it (as well as a few other things), no stickers. brian From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Jan 4 16:01:08 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 22:01:08 +0000 Subject: Anti-mod measures (was Re: desoldering problems and technique) In-Reply-To: References: <237380.4935.qm@web52606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B426524.40702@dunnington.plus.com> On 04/01/2010 19:46, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 2:36 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> Or the early Commodore PET computers with holes drilled through the pads for additional RAM chips. Of course, once again, nothing really stopping a determined hardware hacker from bridging wires to the severed traces... > > I have one of those - I wouldn't call them early - it was the "dynamic > PET" model that could take one or two rows of 4Kx1 or 16Kx1 DRAMs, so > long after the SRAM PETs (which I _would_ call early). If you bought > the 16K version, they sent you a board with a bunch of ~6mm holes > between the unused RAM spots. Yup, the first two or three 3016's our college bought were fine, so we bought ten (IIRC) more, and those ones came with added holes -- more like 3/8, from memory. I used quite a lot of wire-wrap wire on those. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Jan 4 17:35:07 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 15:35:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Anti-mod measures (was Re: desoldering problems and technique) In-Reply-To: <4B426524.40702@dunnington.plus.com> References: <237380.4935.qm@web52606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4B426524.40702@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jan 2010, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 04/01/2010 19:46, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 2:36 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >>> Or the early Commodore PET computers with holes drilled through the pads >>> for additional RAM chips. Of course, once again, nothing really stopping a >>> determined hardware hacker from bridging wires to the severed traces... >> >> I have one of those - I wouldn't call them early - it was the "dynamic >> PET" model that could take one or two rows of 4Kx1 or 16Kx1 DRAMs, so >> long after the SRAM PETs (which I _would_ call early). If you bought >> the 16K version, they sent you a board with a bunch of ~6mm holes >> between the unused RAM spots. > > Yup, the first two or three 3016's our college bought were fine, so we bought > ten (IIRC) more, and those ones came with added holes -- more like 3/8, from > memory. I used quite a lot of wire-wrap wire on those. I wonder how many people tried to return these machines but were turned down with "Gee, we can't take these back. Someone drilled holes in the motherboard!". -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Jan 4 18:04:24 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 00:04:24 -0000 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <7DC22E06-5430-497B-9F4C-9C5786FB4B7C@neurotica.com> Message-ID: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > Urr? There's no significant incremental cost there. I'm sure > it's calculable, but it'll be in the hundredths of a cent. > > -Dave I've no idea why this board was built the way it was, but I've seen plenty of designs that had all the bells and whistles (or debug MICTORs etc.) in the proto and even early engineering builds and then were removed once the design was proven or requirements firmed up and the extra bits and pieces were not needed. Not building in connectors/components etc. saves a few pennies (or more) per board. Re-laying out the board costs $$$. There are also plenty of examples of part A and part B using the same board but with different/more components added for the more expensive variant (different capacity memory boards would be the classic example, I guess). Antonio From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Jan 4 18:08:31 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 00:08:31 -0000 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <27B00B16D3F048CC9159B09F257DD048@ANTONIOPC> cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > When DEC found out that folks were taking advantage of them > by buying a VAXStation II RC and swapping out the backplane, > the responded by pouring The epoxy so that it glued the > backplane to the chassis, as well. A few folks Got these and > then managed to chisel out the old backplane. There was a company round here (Oxford UK) that used to remove the glue for a fee (I'm told; I was never told who they were though). Antonio From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Mon Jan 4 18:52:20 2010 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 16:52:20 -0800 Subject: Going off the thread of a topic (Was: Compaq Portable II - ...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In Issue 15's Topics none of these emails had anything to do with their subject: "Compaq Portable II - Restoration Problem, Help requested". I would like to thank Fred for showing how one should change the subject line when the discussion goes off thread (see Topic 14) and suggest to the rest of us that this group will work better if we all follow Fred's example. 4. Re: Compaq Portable II - Restoration Problem, Help requested (Tony Duell) 5. Re: Compaq Portable II - Restoration Problem, Help requested (Chuck Guzis) 6. Re: Compaq Portable II - Restoration Problem, Help requested (Josh Dersch) 7. Re: Compaq Portable II - Restoration Problem, Help requested (Dave McGuire) 9. Re: Compaq Portable II - Restoration Problem, Help requested (Chuck Guzis) 11. Re: Compaq Portable II - Restoration Problem, Help requested (Dave McGuire) 13. Re: Compaq Portable II - Restoration Problem, Help requested (Chuck Guzis) 14. Disk change and write cacheing (Was: Compaq Portable II - (Fred Cisin) 16. Re: Compaq Portable II - Restoration Problem, Help requested (Tony Duell) 18. Re: Compaq Portable II - Restoration Problem, Help requested (Tony Duell) 21. Re: Compaq Portable II - Restoration Problem, Help requested (Josh Dersch) 22. Re: Compaq Portable II - Restoration Problem, Help requested (Dave McGuire) Tom From pneubauer at bluerwhite.org Tue Jan 5 16:01:37 2010 From: pneubauer at bluerwhite.org (Peter Neubauer) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 16:01:37 -0600 Subject: Mark Simonsen of Beagle Bros to keynote KansasFest 2010 Message-ID: <8AE2AEA4-9AC0-47B5-843C-2109D39838C5@bluerwhite.org> I thought this might interest some list members. -Peter === KANSAS CITY, MO ? December 22, 2009 ? Mark Simonsen, employee number three and later owner of Beagle Bros, will be the keynote speaker at KansasFest 2010. At Beagle Bros, whose popular software products for the Apple II hobbyist demonstrated the publisher's quirky sense of humor, Mark developed software including Flex Type, Beagle BASIC, Beagle Graphics, Triple-Dump, and Double-Take. In the early 1980s, Mark decided that he "wanted to work with the Apple for the rest of [his] life," a statement that captures the enthusiasm and spirit of Mark, Beagle Bros, and many Apple II users. Beagle Bros started in 1980 under the direction of Bert Kersey to provide software to casual users of the Apple II. A year and a half after graduating with a degree in computer science from Brigham Young University, Mark "fell in love with the Apple." Mark published Flex Type through Beagle Bros in 1982, joined the company as a programmer in 1983, and bought it in 1987 at the age of 29. Besides software like Shape Mechanic, GPLE, and DOS Boss for budding programmers, Beagle Bros produced books, posters, and even advertisements full of clever and useful tidbits demonstrating the capabilities of the Apple II. Later, the company produced highly regarded productivity software like Platinum Paint, BeagleWrite GS, and the TimeOut line of AppleWorks add-ons. Beagle Bros earned many loyal followers thanks to the combination of quality products, enthusiasm, and humor. Mark sold the company's product line in 1991 and 1992 to Quality Computers. Today, Mark helps save memories as the CEO of iPreserve, a company specializing in photo, film, video, and document preservation. KansasFest 2010, the 21st annual Apple II conference, is set for July 20th through July 25th at Rockhurst University in Kansas City, Missouri. KansasFest was originally hosted by Resource Central and has been brought to you by the KFest Committee since 1995. Any and all Apple II and Macintosh users, fans, and friends are invited to attend this year's "summer camp for geeks." Registration details will be announced on the KansasFest Web site in early 2010. Please heed the warning from Beagle Bros and refrain from feeding your disks to alligators. For photos, schedules, and presentations from past year's events, please visit the event's official Web site at http://www.kansasfest.org/ CONTACT: KansasFest 2010 http://www.kansasfest.org/ http://twitter.com/kansasfest/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 5 12:45:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 18:45:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP Integral / display schematic ? In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jan 4, 10 09:08:35 pm Message-ID: I've looked ath Rik's photos of his display module (on Flickr), and it is the same as the display in both my integrals. BTw, the heatsink in the middle of the PCB comes off by undoing the obvious screw (it's tapped into a boss on the plastic fream, there's no nut or anything to worry about). Under the end of the heatsink is that gate array chip I mentiuoned. If you want to remove the PCB altogether, you take off the hatsink, unplug the 4 eibbon tails from the PCB connectors and remove the remaining 4 screws, which have plastic washers under the heads. -tony From sethm at loomcom.com Tue Jan 5 13:37:49 2010 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 19:37:49 +0000 Subject: Hans Pufal's PDP-8 FPGA Core? Message-ID: <20100105193749.GA349@mail.loomcom.com> Does anyone know what became of Hans Pufal's PDP-8 FPGA core? I've found quite a few references to it on Google, but no links to it anywhere. I tried contacting Hans at his gmail address about a week ago and haven't heard back, but I don't know if that's his current address or not. -Seth From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Jan 5 00:46:31 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 22:46:31 -0800 Subject: Looking for Altair 680 monitor ROM image (or other simple 6800 software) Message-ID: <4B42E047.10102@mail.msu.edu> Decided to dust off an old software project -- at one point I was working on a Tektronix 4051 emulator, a machine based on the Motorola 6800 CPU. I've coded up a simple 6800 emulation & disassembler but I'm lacking some simple 6800 code to test out its accuracy on "real" code. I'd like to put it through its paces on a simple piece of hardware before tackling the (mostly) undocumented quirks of the 4051. (It's much easier to debug a hardware emulation when you're confident the CPU emulation isn't the culprit...) I thought the Altair 680 would be a good starting point but I can't for the life of me find any dumps of the monitor/VTL ROMs on the 'net. Anyone have any leads for these or other 680 software? Thanks, Josh From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 4 23:22:46 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 22:22:46 -0700 Subject: Tek 4404 documentation on eBay In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 03 Jan 2010 16:08:17 -0800. <4B413171.6090405@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4B413171.6090405 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > Was curious if anyone on the list was the person who drove up the price of th e > 4404 schematics. I see now that the owner "parted" everything out including unbundling the manuals. I thought about bidding on that, but I didn't realize it was a complete system that was shotgun blasted all over ebay. Oh well. > I REALLY hate the fact you can no longer tell who you're bidding against. Yeah. And you can't contact the winner afterwards. This whole business of hiding all the ebay ids has essentially killed ebay as a community. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jan 5 16:38:20 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 14:38:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking for Altair 680 monitor ROM image (or other simple 6800 software) In-Reply-To: <4B42E047.10102@mail.msu.edu> References: <4B42E047.10102@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jan 2010, Josh Dersch wrote: > Decided to dust off an old software project -- at one point I was working on > a Tektronix 4051 emulator, a machine based on the Motorola 6800 CPU. > > I've coded up a simple 6800 emulation & disassembler but I'm lacking some > simple 6800 code to test out its accuracy on "real" code. I'd like to put it > through its paces on a simple piece of hardware before tackling the (mostly) > undocumented quirks of the 4051. (It's much easier to debug a hardware > emulation when you're confident the CPU emulation isn't the culprit...) > I thought the Altair 680 would be a good starting point but I can't for the > life of me find any dumps of the monitor/VTL ROMs on the 'net. Anyone have > any leads for these or other 680 software? Check out http://www.altairkit.com/ -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Jan 5 16:52:06 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 14:52:06 -0800 Subject: Tek 4404 documentation on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Sun, 03 Jan 2010 16:08:17 -0800. <4B413171.6090405@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 9:23 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Tek 4404 documentation on eBay > > > In article <4B413171.6090405 at bitsavers.org>, > Al Kossow writes: > > > Was curious if anyone on the list was the person who drove up the > price of th > e > > 4404 schematics. > > I see now that the owner "parted" everything out including unbundling > the manuals. > > I thought about bidding on that, but I didn't realize it was a > complete system that was shotgun blasted all over ebay. Oh well. > > > I REALLY hate the fact you can no longer tell who you're bidding > against. > > Yeah. And you can't contact the winner afterwards. This whole > business of hiding all the ebay ids has essentially killed ebay as a > community. > -- IMO that's why eBay did it: since we as a community would cooperate and (usually) not bid things up to stupid prices, eBay wasn't making enough money (uh huh). I find that I shop eBay a lot less now. (Hm, maybe my wife put them up to it?) -- Ian From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Jan 5 17:24:17 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 23:24:17 +0000 Subject: Anti-mod measures (was Re: desoldering problems and technique) In-Reply-To: References: <237380.4935.qm@web52606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4B426524.40702@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4B43CA21.9040500@philpem.me.uk> David Griffith wrote: > I wonder how many people tried to return these machines but were turned down with "Gee, we can't take these back. Someone drilled holes in the motherboard!". That sounds like a trick a PC manufacturer would use to avoid honouring a warranty repair request -- leave a few unstuffed components on a thru-hole board, then declare the warranty void because "extra holes were drilled into the board". Put it this way: given the "fun" I've had with component suppliers and "warranties", it wouldn't surprise me in the least to hear of someone doing that. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 5 17:26:53 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 16:26:53 -0700 Subject: Tek 4404 documentation on eBay In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 05 Jan 2010 14:52:06 -0800. Message-ID: In article , Ian King writes: > IMO that's why eBay did it: since we as a community would cooperate and (us= > ually) not bid things up to stupid prices, eBay wasn't making enough money = > (uh huh). I find that I shop eBay a lot less now. (Hm, maybe my wife put = > them up to it?) -- Ian=20 Well, knowing that I could contact other bidders or winners never influenced how much I was willing to spend or how much I bid. Instead, it allowed me to contact winners and share information with them or ask them questions about what they ended up winning. Ebay says that they undertook these measures because of fraud and abuse and while fraud and abuse were (and are) occurring, obscuring identities and preventing you from contacting people who bid on/won items is not the only solution. They could have instituted a double-blind contact system so that you could still contact winners, but neither party would know the identity of the other in the communication unless they chose to reveal it. In other words, they could have solved the problem without fracturing the community. But essentially ebay has decided that they are only a community of sellers and that buyers are second class citizens. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 5 17:44:38 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 18:44:38 -0500 Subject: Tek 4404 documentation on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 6:26 PM, Richard wrote: >...?Ebay > says that they undertook these measures because of fraud and abuse... >?But essentially ebay has > decided that they are only a community of sellers and that buyers are > second class citizens. My biggest fraud complaint was auctions that smelled very suspiciously of shill bidding and other seller collusion. What the current scheme does is hide that so efficiently that it's essentially not possible to make an accusation of shill bidding stick. The result is a "fraud free" system since it's impossible to prove fraud. eBay gets to claim they cleaned things up and gets to collect higher fees as a side effect (though it's my belief that the bigger benefit is improved PR claims). I have essentially stopped bidding on eBay, and in fact have only bought one thing in two years, from an eBay store with BIN. It's not worth the aggravation. Since eBay is still doing quite well financially, they clearly aren't hurting from the changes they've made over the past few years that screw buyers. I'm done, though. -ethan From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jan 5 18:08:45 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 16:08:45 -0800 Subject: Looking for Altair 680 monitor ROM image (or other simple 6800software) References: <4B42E047.10102@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4B43D48D.7C3BF290@cs.ubc.ca> Josh Dersch wrote: > > Decided to dust off an old software project -- at one point I was > working on a Tektronix 4051 emulator, a machine based on the Motorola > 6800 CPU. > > I've coded up a simple 6800 emulation & disassembler but I'm lacking > some simple 6800 code to test out its accuracy on "real" code. I'd like > to put it through its paces on a simple piece of hardware before > tackling the (mostly) undocumented quirks of the 4051. (It's much > easier to debug a hardware emulation when you're confident the CPU > emulation isn't the culprit...) > > I thought the Altair 680 would be a good starting point but I can't for > the life of me find any dumps of the monitor/VTL ROMs on the 'net. > Anyone have any leads for these or other 680 software? > > Thanks, > Josh You might try the SWTP monitor, a slight variation on the original Motorola MIKBUG monitor. The SWTP manual is here: http://www.opencores.org/websvn,filedetails?repname=System68&path=%2FSystem68%2Ftrunk%2FDoc%2FSWTBUG_Users_Guide.pdf The assembler code listing is in the back and appears to have been OCR'd, so it could be mangled into source form with a little effort. These monitors use a bit-bashed serial port on bit lines of a 6820 with an external bit timer read off an input bit on the 6820. Might be an annoyance to try to emulate but alternatively one could simply hook into the base-level character read/write routines. There might be more stuff at Michael Holley's SWTP site but I couldn't access it a few minutes ago: http://www.swtpc.com/ (I could send you my own monitor that I use with the 6800 but it's been awhile since I used it .. also wrote an asm, disasm and simulator a few years ago.) From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 5 18:47:57 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 16:47:57 -0800 Subject: Looking for Altair 680 monitor ROM image (or other simple 6800 software) In-Reply-To: <4B42E047.10102@mail.msu.edu> References: <4B42E047.10102@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4B43DDBD.7030206@bitsavers.org> On 1/4/10 10:46 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Decided to dust off an old software project -- at one point I was > working on a Tektronix 4051 emulator, a machine based on the Motorola > 6800 CPU. > I was just wondering what happened to that > I've coded up a simple 6800 emulation & disassembler but I'm lacking > some simple 6800 code to test out its accuracy on "real" code. I'd like > to put it through its paces on a simple piece of hardware before > tackling the (mostly) undocumented quirks of the 4051. Have you thought about using MESS to do this? From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 5 18:49:42 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 16:49:42 -0800 Subject: Tek 4404 documentation on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B43DE26.8080509@bitsavers.org> On 1/4/10 9:22 PM, Richard wrote: > I thought about bidding on that, but I didn't realize it was a > complete system that was shotgun blasted all over ebay. Oh well. > It looked like the hard disk and controller were missing. When he posted the first of the stuff, he said he would send a list of what he had, which he never did. The docs and software ended up with me. From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Jan 5 22:05:13 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 20:05:13 -0800 Subject: Looking for Altair 680 monitor ROM image (or other simple 6800 software) In-Reply-To: <4B43DDBD.7030206@bitsavers.org> References: <4B42E047.10102@mail.msu.edu> <4B43DDBD.7030206@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4B440BF9.8@mail.msu.edu> Al Kossow wrote: > On 1/4/10 10:46 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> Decided to dust off an old software project -- at one point I was >> working on a Tektronix 4051 emulator, a machine based on the Motorola >> 6800 CPU. >> > > I was just wondering what happened to that Been distracted by other shiny objects :). Lately, I've been working on finishing (for some value of "finish") version 0.3 of PERQemu; I have the 16K CPU mostly done, fixed a number of hardware bugs, started on GPIB support and have done a small bit of optimization that improves performance by about 75%. And Accent S4 is almost usable! http://yahozna.dyndns.org/projects/PERQemu/accent-startup.jpg http://yahozna.dyndns.org/projects/PERQemu/accent-sapphire.jpg Been tackling a real RasterOp emulation on and off, and it's time to bite the bullet and actually do it (getting Accent to run properly basically requires it, as my hacks that work for POS are not sufficient.) But I've kind of burned myself out on it at the moment, so I thought I'd tackle something lighter-weight for awhile. > >> I've coded up a simple 6800 emulation & disassembler but I'm lacking >> some simple 6800 code to test out its accuracy on "real" code. I'd like >> to put it through its paces on a simple piece of hardware before >> tackling the (mostly) undocumented quirks of the 4051. > > Have you thought about using MESS to do this? > The thought hadn't crossed my mind. It's not a bad idea, I should probably look into it. Honestly, I wrote the 6800 emulator over a period of two evenings and I find it a good way to get accustomed to a new CPU (though I guess it's not that much different from the 6502 I already know...) but maybe it makes more sense to integrate the 4051 emulation into MESS... Josh From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Jan 5 22:11:39 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 20:11:39 -0800 Subject: Looking for Altair 680 monitor ROM image (or other simple 6800software) In-Reply-To: <4B43D48D.7C3BF290@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4B42E047.10102@mail.msu.edu> <4B43D48D.7C3BF290@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4B440D7B.4030306@mail.msu.edu> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Josh Dersch wrote: > >> Decided to dust off an old software project -- at one point I was >> working on a Tektronix 4051 emulator, a machine based on the Motorola >> 6800 CPU. >> >> I've coded up a simple 6800 emulation & disassembler but I'm lacking >> some simple 6800 code to test out its accuracy on "real" code. I'd like >> to put it through its paces on a simple piece of hardware before >> tackling the (mostly) undocumented quirks of the 4051. (It's much >> easier to debug a hardware emulation when you're confident the CPU >> emulation isn't the culprit...) >> >> I thought the Altair 680 would be a good starting point but I can't for >> the life of me find any dumps of the monitor/VTL ROMs on the 'net. >> Anyone have any leads for these or other 680 software? >> >> Thanks, >> Josh >> > > You might try the SWTP monitor, a slight variation on the original Motorola > MIKBUG monitor. > > The SWTP manual is here: > http://www.opencores.org/websvn,filedetails?repname=System68&path=%2FSystem68%2Ftrunk%2FDoc%2FSWTBUG_Users_Guide.pdf > > The assembler code listing is in the back and appears to have been OCR'd, so it > could be mangled into source > form with a little effort. These monitors use a bit-bashed serial port on bit > lines of a 6820 with an external bit timer read off an input bit on the 6820. > Might be an annoyance to try to emulate but alternatively one could simply hook > into the base-level character read/write routines. > > There might be more stuff at Michael Holley's SWTP site but I couldn't access > it a few minutes ago: > http://www.swtpc.com/ > > (I could send you my own monitor that I use with the 6800 but it's been awhile > since I used it .. also wrote an asm, disasm and simulator a few years ago.) > > Cool. I couldn't get to swtpc.com last night either; it appears to be back now, and it has a dump of MIKBUG as well as the 680b's PROM monitor & 6800 ALTAIR BASIC, amongst other things... that should give me something to start with. Thanks! Josh From wgungfu at gmail.com Mon Jan 4 12:00:34 2010 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 12:00:34 -0600 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: References: <291478.2509.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2c768b1e1001041000k2e247561reeb7352345d5d25@mail.gmail.com> I have one, a lower end bridgeboard model. Marty On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 11:55 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 12:51 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> Also, how many people actually *bought* the bridgeboard, anyway? I have seen dozens of 2000's, but I've never once seen a PC bridgeboard. > > I have a couple of them, but I got them in a pile of bits from a > defunct C= dealer. ?I don't recall running into them in the wild, so > to speak. > > -ethan > From wgungfu at gmail.com Tue Jan 5 14:15:33 2010 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 14:15:33 -0600 Subject: Call for displays at Midwest Gaming Classic March 27th and 28th Message-ID: <2c768b1e1001051215s46dd9244web2a94ee9f97c0cf@mail.gmail.com> Just sending out another call to members of this list for vintage computing displays at the Midwest Gaming Classic in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. We've taken over the entire Sheraton Four Points hotel and convention center, and have expanded to 30,000 sq. ft. this year. The convention covers consoles (past to present), pinball, video coin, and vintage computing. With about 4,000 in attendance last year and even more expected this year because of the move closer to the city, your equipment and display will be enjoyed and appreciated by a lot of people. Photos of the entire show from last year are available here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/91071283 at N00/collections/72157622883180931/ I'm, as always, continually interested in expanding the vintage computing area. Besides items from my archive, we've had members from the Commodore and TI communities come and do great displays. We want more! Please contact me direct if you're interested. Also, computing equipment is always in high demand in the vending hall as well for anyone that's interested. Marty From philpem at philpem.me.uk Tue Jan 5 17:23:49 2010 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 23:23:49 +0000 Subject: Anti-mod measures (was Re: desoldering problems and technique) In-Reply-To: References: <237380.4935.qm@web52606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4B426524.40702@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4B43CA05.5070603@philpem.me.uk> David Griffith wrote: > I wonder how many people tried to return these machines but were turned > down with "Gee, we can't take these back. Someone drilled holes in the > motherboard!". That sounds like a trick a PC manufacturer would use to avoid honouring a warranty repair request -- leave a few unstuffed components on a thru-hole board, then declare the warranty void because "extra holes were drilled into the board". Put it this way: given the "fun" I've had with component suppliers and "warranties", it wouldn't surprise me in the least to hear of someone doing that. -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Wed Jan 6 00:54:46 2010 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 17:54:46 +1100 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <2c768b1e1001041000k2e247561reeb7352345d5d25@mail.gmail.com> References: <291478.2509.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <2c768b1e1001041000k2e247561reeb7352345d5d25@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b4433bb.0d0bca0a.4dc6.ffff9c79@mx.google.com> They were pretty popular here in Australia - when I was working for a Commodore dealer we sold around 2 or 3 a week - this was the XT model. Lance -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Martin Goldberg Sent: Tuesday, 5 January 2010 5:01 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) I have one, a lower end bridgeboard model. Marty On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 11:55 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 12:51 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> Also, how many people actually *bought* the bridgeboard, anyway? I have seen dozens of 2000's, but I've never once seen a PC bridgeboard. > > I have a couple of them, but I got them in a pile of bits from a > defunct C= dealer. ?I don't recall running into them in the wild, so > to speak. > > -ethan > From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Jan 6 09:28:38 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 09:28:38 -0600 Subject: emulating an Apple II+ in an FPGA Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001060728o5777d335n5dba54611ea5c14@mail.gmail.com> I noticed that there's an article in the december circuit cellar that talks about emulating an Apple II+ in an FPGA. It was an interesting article, although I only understood about 20% of it. As a software guy though, the hardware "code" has me interested. Maybe this would be an easier and less time-consuming way for me to learn about hardware. brian From hachti at hachti.de Wed Jan 6 10:11:10 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 17:11:10 +0100 Subject: Hans Pufal's PDP-8 FPGA Core? In-Reply-To: <20100105193749.GA349@mail.loomcom.com> References: <20100105193749.GA349@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: <4B44B61E.60403@hachti.de> Hi Seth, > Does anyone know what became of Hans Pufal's PDP-8 FPGA core? I've found > quite a few references to it on Google, but no links to it anywhere. I > tried contacting Hans at his gmail address about a week ago and haven't > heard back, but I don't know if that's his current address or not. I tried to get in touch as well. Someone mentioned to have the code - but he won't distribute it as he doesn't have Hans' permission. And it seems that Hans it not reachable :-( I wanted to look as his code when I implemented a pdp8 in an FPGA for myself. If you're interested in pdp8 on FPGA, contact me off list. Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Jan 6 10:27:06 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 11:27:06 -0500 Subject: emulating an Apple II+ in an FPGA In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381001060728o5777d335n5dba54611ea5c14@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c381001060728o5777d335n5dba54611ea5c14@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B44B9DA.1010604@verizon.net> Brian Lanning wrote: > I noticed that there's an article in the december circuit cellar that > talks about emulating an Apple II+ in an FPGA. It was an interesting > article, although I only understood about 20% of it. As a software > guy though, the hardware "code" has me interested. Maybe this would > be an easier and less time-consuming way for me to learn about > hardware. > > brian Brian, I've got to subscribe -- sounds like a neat article. I recently subscribed to Nuts and Volts, and I like the fact that you get access to all of the back issues back to like 2004 for free included w/ your subscription. The whole retro-computing thing in an FPGA floats my boat. Very neat stuff. Lots of people have been reverse-engineering or duplicating the functionality of these old custom chips which is fantastic. Plus I love how it scales. Got two custom chips? 10 custom chips? The logic will fit into a small FPGA. And then throw the soft-core processor onto the same FPGA and you have the system-on-a-chip idea. And there's little wiring to do because everything is internal. As far as less time-consuming goes, I wouldn't count on it. I've had an FPGA board for awhile and there is a learning curve there. I've enjoyed the time I've spent on it, but like anything else, there is a fair bit of complexity if you hope to understand how everything works. The installed Xilinx(in my case) ISE software is huge, and requires a decent machine to give reasonable performance. The fact that many tools are separate programs, while (mostly) launched from the same place, leads to minor integration problems. Like tools that are command line only, and need 8.3 filenames. Or other tools that can't handle spaces in filenames (like "Documents and Settings", ie) And then there's documentation, which is mostly good, but BIIIIG. Like 600 pages for a memory controller. I'm not trying to sway your decision. Playing w/ this hardware is lots of fun --- just want to set your expectations accordingly. Keith From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Jan 6 10:52:08 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 10:52:08 -0600 Subject: emulating an Apple II+ in an FPGA In-Reply-To: <4B44B9DA.1010604@verizon.net> References: <6dbe3c381001060728o5777d335n5dba54611ea5c14@mail.gmail.com> <4B44B9DA.1010604@verizon.net> Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001060852j3ee35ecaue60f8b66f36abd1a@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 10:27 AM, Keith Monahan wrote: > I've got to subscribe -- sounds like a neat article. ?I recently subscribed > to Nuts and Volts, and I like the fact that you get access to all of the > back issues back to like 2004 for free included w/ your subscription. I was an EE major my first year of college before switching to CS. It was probably a good career move, but I miss playing with electronics. I really don't need another hobby though. > The whole retro-computing thing in an FPGA floats my boat. ?Very neat stuff. > ?Lots of people have been reverse-engineering or duplicating the > functionality of these old custom chips which is fantastic. ?Plus I love how > it scales. ?Got two custom chips? 10 custom chips? ?The logic will fit into > a small FPGA. ?And then throw the soft-core processor onto the same FPGA and > you have the system-on-a-chip idea. ?And there's little wiring to do because > everything is internal. That's how the minimig is. Someone reimplemented the amiga custom chips and a 68000 in an FPGA. I believe the new c64 chameleon works like this also. > As far as less time-consuming goes, I wouldn't count on it. I agree. There's so much to learn and nowhere near enough time. I'd like to learn to weld also, but that's not likely to happen any time soon either. I'll probably stick with tinkering with 6502 machine language. At least I'm already equipped to do that. The learning curve should be easy. brian From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 6 11:26:10 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 09:26:10 -0800 Subject: Morrow Micro Decision bootable floppy images Message-ID: <4B44C7B2.704@bitsavers.org> Bootable images for most flavors of Micro Decision, along with apps now up under http://bitsavers.org/bits/Morrow From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Jan 6 11:40:48 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 12:40:48 -0500 Subject: emulating an Apple II+ in an FPGA In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381001060852j3ee35ecaue60f8b66f36abd1a@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c381001060728o5777d335n5dba54611ea5c14@mail.gmail.com> <4B44B9DA.1010604@verizon.net> <6dbe3c381001060852j3ee35ecaue60f8b66f36abd1a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B44CB20.4090107@verizon.net> Brian Lanning wrote: > That's how the minimig is. Someone reimplemented the amiga custom > chips and a 68000 in an FPGA. I believe the new c64 chameleon works > like this also. I am a proud minimig owner. :) The minimig is awesome. It was actually the inspiration for me to learn verilog and FPGAs. > I agree. There's so much to learn and nowhere near enough time. I'd > like to learn to weld also, but that's not likely to happen any time > soon either. It's hard to really describe in words how DEEP and vast the FPGA world is. You'd think that learning your HDL is sort of 90% of the work. But it's really not true, learning Verilog is the easy part. :) The hard part is learning how all the tools work together to yield the desired result. > I'll probably stick with tinkering with 6502 machine language. At > least I'm already equipped to do that. The learning curve should be > easy. > > brian I've found that stuff straight-forward as well. Designing for FPGAs definitely takes a different mindset. You don't really write code, you design hardware. Practically everything is concurrent and simultaneous --- so the concept of one instruction after the other simply doesn't exist (for the most part). It's weird to see a block of code that, ummm, is always running. I mean, always there. It's good and it's bad. And your registers are always the exact size you specify --- doesn't matter if it is 3-bits wide or 100 bits wide. And there's no limitations except physical ones..... My current project is going to use picoblaze (8-bit microcontroller core ) with hardware for a timer and time-critical things. Keith From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 6 12:23:21 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 13:23:21 -0500 Subject: Tek 4404 documentation on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > They could have instituted a double-blind contact > system so that you could still contact winners, but neither party > would know the identity of the other in the communication unless they > chose to reveal it. ?In other words, they could have solved the > problem without fracturing the community. And then then is a huge exodus of sellers from Ebay... There has been talk for some time about Ebay doing exactly this, and their is FIERCE opposition from the seller community. We like to know who we are selling to. Sellers are pretty wide open to fraud, believe it or not, and we have little faith in what Ebay and Paypal do to fight it. We like to know that is we get defrauded, we can cut to the chase and talk to USPS or the FBI without Ebay getting in the way. Ebay actually is not doing that great. There are many available solutions for plug and play web stores, completely independent of Ebay. The only thing that keeps many sellers from jumping ship is the huge marketing advantage Ebay provides. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 6 12:31:29 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 13:31:29 -0500 Subject: Tek 4404 documentation on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > My biggest fraud complaint was auctions that smelled very suspiciously > of shill bidding and other seller collusion. Shilling actually never was a big problem on Ebay. Yes, it happens from time to time, just like a real auction. A fair number of times Ebay police will see it and kill it off before anyone sees it. Sellers see it with some kinds of fishy bid cancellation notices we get. Ebay tightened up privacy simply to make a buck - or rather to get the buck they were losing to deals outside their system after auctions closed. In the old days, one saying was that when you sold something on Ebay, you could sell two more. And most sellers did this. -- Will From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Jan 6 12:46:46 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 13:46:46 -0500 Subject: emulating an Apple II+ in an FPGA In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381001060852j3ee35ecaue60f8b66f36abd1a@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c381001060728o5777d335n5dba54611ea5c14@mail.gmail.com> <4B44B9DA.1010604@verizon.net> <6dbe3c381001060852j3ee35ecaue60f8b66f36abd1a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B44DA96.6020709@verizon.net> While I'm on my podium, one more quick thing: (I know this isn't your word perse, so I'm not picking on you Brian) but I think the word "emulate" is really walking a thin line when we talk about this stuff. The minimig, for instance, is really an Amiga clone. It doesn't "emulate" a processor -- it either has a physical hardware processor or a processor core in the FPGA. The hardware actually exists physically. The custom chips logic is physically instantiated and temporarily created within the FPGA. All this stuff is sort of "better than", or one step above, emulation. Here's the best part: let's say you don't like how the original amiga bus worked. You can take the existing design, and reimplement an entirely new bus, reconnect the various logic to the new bus, and off you go. What's amazing is that you are simply modifying code to make all this happen. Never touched a PCB design tool, wire wrap tool, wires on a breadboard, etc. Best yet, say you don't even have (any) hardware in front of you -- you can simulate your newly designed creation and look at logic waveforms to test your creation. Does it do what you intended? Is the timing right? Amazing stuff here. Keith From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Jan 6 12:54:57 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 12:54:57 -0600 Subject: emulating an Apple II+ in an FPGA In-Reply-To: <4B44DA96.6020709@verizon.net> References: <6dbe3c381001060728o5777d335n5dba54611ea5c14@mail.gmail.com> <4B44B9DA.1010604@verizon.net> <6dbe3c381001060852j3ee35ecaue60f8b66f36abd1a@mail.gmail.com> <4B44DA96.6020709@verizon.net> Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001061054p3de92854wf1c5b2684b9646a5@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 12:46 PM, Keith Monahan wrote: > but I think the word "emulate" is really walking a thin line when we talk > about this stuff. ?The minimig, for instance, is really an Amiga clone. ?It > doesn't "emulate" a processor -- it either has a physical hardware processor > or a processor core in the FPGA. ?The hardware actually exists physically. > ?The custom chips logic is physically instantiated and temporarily created > within the FPGA. I have software developer brain damage. :-) brian From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jan 6 13:04:18 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 11:04:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore chip design files Message-ID: Someone is acquiring and going through old 9-track tapes of chip design files produced by Atari during their heyday. See http://www.atariage.com/ for the story. Does anyone know anything about what happened to Commodore's design files? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jan 6 13:15:55 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 11:15:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: new non-x86 mobos Message-ID: A couple weeks ago I was grousing about there being nothing in the realm of non x86/amd64 motherboards. I stumbled across something new while looking at the Minimig board: the X1000. Its appears to be a multicore Power of some sort with ideas from the old Amiga machines mixed in. See http://www.a-eon.com/ or http://www.a-eon.com/6.html if you don't want to play the hide-and-seek game. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ball.of.john at gmail.com Wed Jan 6 13:18:35 2010 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 11:18:35 -0800 Subject: Two free RK05 drives in Kamloops BC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I picked these up a few months ago in hopes that I could add them on to a PDP-8 or PDP-11 I might hopefully some day find but I then discovered that the voice coil/head assemblies had been removed (which would mean I would have to find an alignment pack on top of finding new heads, a controller AND a PDP) and long story short, I have no use for them. They power up, all the boards seem to be in there, the spindle spins up if I trick it into thinking a pack is inserted but the foam has crumbled and several of the lamps have been removed from the front. If anyone wants these, feel free to tell me. I'm in Kamloops British Columbia. http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/Computer%20related/RK05J/P9 203118.jpg http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/Computer%20related/RK05J/P9 203105.jpg http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/Computer%20related/RK05J/P9 203107.jpg From doc at vaxen.net Wed Jan 6 13:22:18 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 13:22:18 -0600 Subject: new non-x86 mobos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B44E2EA.2040802@vaxen.net> David Griffith wrote: > > A couple weeks ago I was grousing about there being nothing in the realm > of non x86/amd64 motherboards. I stumbled across something new while > looking at the Minimig board: the X1000. Its appears to be a multicore > Power of some sort with ideas from the old Amiga machines mixed in. See > http://www.a-eon.com/ or http://www.a-eon.com/6.html if you don't want > to play the hide-and-seek game. Oddly enough, I was looking at that yesterday. It reeks of vaporware to me. Doc From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Wed Jan 6 13:32:03 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 11:32:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore chip design files In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <369621.60202.qm@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> That's really remarkable. I imagine that the masks are probably worthless for today's processes though. :( It would be a fantastic aid in reverse engineering though. ________________________________ From: David Griffith To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Wed, January 6, 2010 1:04:18 PM Subject: Commodore chip design files Someone is acquiring and going through old 9-track tapes of chip design files produced by Atari during their heyday. See http://www.atariage.com/ for the story. Does anyone know anything about what happened to Commodore's design files? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jan 6 13:32:12 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 19:32:12 +0000 Subject: new non-x86 mobos In-Reply-To: <4B44E2EA.2040802@vaxen.net> References: <4B44E2EA.2040802@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <575131af1001061132o7f2cb4ear19303f6ec66537a3@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 7:22 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: > David Griffith wrote: >> >> A couple weeks ago I was grousing about there being nothing in the realm >> of non x86/amd64 motherboards. ?I stumbled across something new while >> looking at the Minimig board: the X1000. ?Its appears to be a multicore >> Power of some sort with ideas from the old Amiga machines mixed in. ?See >> http://www.a-eon.com/ or http://www.a-eon.com/6.html if you don't want to >> play the hide-and-seek game. > > ?Oddly enough, I was looking at that yesterday. > > ?It reeks of vaporware to me. True - there have been a good few Amiga clones that have never seen the light of day. However, Hyperion is not Amiga Inc. Unlike Amiga Inc., Hyperion does actually /deliver./ It took years to ship AmigaOS 4.0, but a large part of that was legal wrangles. Hyperion had pretty much finished it, but Amiga Inc. wouldn't let 'em ship. AFAICT, basically, Amiga Inc does not like the thought of anyone else making any money off the Amiga name, even though AInc doesn't sell anything any more. AInc would have rather sunk and killed the name and the product than let it go. However, it appears that a few years back now, AInc lost the lawsuit and Hyperion now has a permanent right to use the name to describe the product that it wrote from scratch under commission from AInc. Fairly soon after, AmigaOS 4.1 followed and allegedly there will be more to come. Also Hyperion have produced versions for non-Amiga-badged PowerPC-Amiga-compatibles, such as Efika, Pegasos/Pegasos 2 etc. So I think the company is serious. Secondly, what makes me slightly hopeful is that the spec of the new machine is not that ridiculous. It sounds like a PowerFicient chip from (the late) PASemi - now part of Apple, AIUI - with a modern-ish chipset and this mysterious custom chip. It's doable. If it ships, though, I bet it'll be expensive. Personally, I find the BeagleBoard a bit more interesting - it's real, out there, mates of mine have them, it's fairly cheap - and I always was an Archimedes fan more than an AmigaHead. :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Jan 6 13:32:25 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 11:32:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: new non-x86 mobos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <763220.59701.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 1/6/10, David Griffith wrote: > > A couple weeks ago I was grousing about there being nothing > in the realm of non x86/amd64 motherboards. I stumbled > across something new while looking at the Minimig board: the > X1000. Its appears to be a multicore Power of some > sort with ideas from the old Amiga machines mixed in. > See http://www.a-eon.com/ or http://www.a-eon.com/6.html if you don't want to play > the hide-and-seek game. I saw this too. And it's exactly the kind of thing I've been hoping for - but it also seems like another one of those vaporware products that's never going to exist in a purchasable form. So, if it really does exist sometime in the near future, I'll buy one - but until then, I remain cautiously optimistic. -Ian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 6 13:21:10 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 19:21:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Anti-mod measures (was Re: desoldering problems and technique) In-Reply-To: <4B43CA05.5070603@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jan 5, 10 11:23:49 pm Message-ID: > > David Griffith wrote: > > I wonder how many people tried to return these machines but were turned > > down with "Gee, we can't take these back. Someone drilled holes in the > > motherboard!". > > That sounds like a trick a PC manufacturer would use to avoid honouring > a warranty repair request -- leave a few unstuffed components on a > thru-hole board, then declare the warranty void because "extra holes > were drilled into the board". Alternatively I wonder if anyone returned their PET3016 with the comment 'I am not acceptiyn that machine, it's got darn great holes in the PCB' :-) I also remember reading of a board-swap upgrade (may have been TRS80 M3 to M4) where you were supposed to destroy the old board by drilling a hole in it. Point is, they didn't tell you where to drill the hole, and it was possible to do it in an spot that was just ground plane on both sides. Hmmm... > Put it this way: given the "fun" I've had with component suppliers and > "warranties", it wouldn't surprise me in the least to hear of someone > doing that. I am sure I haev seen at least one warrenty that was technically void if you tired ot use the product in the standard way. But I forget what it was. Personally, I ignore warrenties. If the product really is defective in maufacutre, then you don;t _need_ a warrenty in the UK. And most of the time I take the view that if a company couldn't make it properly in the first place, I am not going to trust them to repair it. -tony From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jan 6 13:36:30 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 11:36:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore chip design files In-Reply-To: <369621.60202.qm@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <369621.60202.qm@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Jan 2010, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > > Someone is acquiring and going through old 9-track tapes of chip > > design files produced by Atari during their heyday. See > > http://www.atariage.com/ for the story. Does anyone know anything > > about what happened to Commodore's design files? > That's really remarkable. I imagine that the masks are probably > worthless for today's processes though. :( > > It would be a fantastic aid in reverse engineering though. I'm interested in seeing the guts of the SID. Perhaps newer and more advanced ones can be made. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Jan 6 13:40:40 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 12:40:40 -0700 Subject: new non-x86 mobos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B44E738.4030303@e-bbes.com> David Griffith wrote: > > A couple weeks ago I was grousing about there being nothing in the realm > of non x86/amd64 motherboards. I stumbled across something new while > looking at the Minimig board: the X1000. The Minimigs are a lot of fun ! > Its appears to be a multicore > Power of some sort with ideas from the old Amiga machines mixed in. See > http://www.a-eon.com/ or http://www.a-eon.com/6.html if you don't want > to play the hide-and-seek game. But there are enough powerpc based "amigas" out there, so what ? Just a new dual-core PowerPC. The FPGA based minimigs are more fun. Whatever you were ever missing on your machine, just add it to it now ;-) Cheers From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Jan 6 13:57:36 2010 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 19:57:36 +0000 Subject: emulating an Apple II+ in an FPGA In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381001061054p3de92854wf1c5b2684b9646a5@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c381001060728o5777d335n5dba54611ea5c14@mail.gmail.com> <4B44B9DA.1010604@verizon.net> <6dbe3c381001060852j3ee35ecaue60f8b66f36abd1a@mail.gmail.com> <4B44DA96.6020709@verizon.net> <6dbe3c381001061054p3de92854wf1c5b2684b9646a5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100106195736.GA7096@mail.loomcom.com> * On Wed, Jan 06, 2010 at 12:54:57PM -0600, Brian Lanning wrote: > On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 12:46 PM, Keith Monahan wrote: > > but I think the word "emulate" is really walking a thin line when we talk > > about this stuff. ?The minimig, for instance, is really an Amiga clone. ?It > > doesn't "emulate" a processor -- it either has a physical hardware processor > > or a processor core in the FPGA. ?The hardware actually exists physically. > > ?The custom chips logic is physically instantiated and temporarily created > > within the FPGA. > > I have software developer brain damage. :-) I like that phrase :-) This was really the biggest challenge to me when I started playing with FPGAs via an inexpensive Digilent board. Before 2007, I had never really touched hardware. I knew what a resistor was, that was about it. But I've been programming since I first laid hands on a Commodore 64, so those concepts were deeply ingrained. It took a little while - and a bunch of synthesis errors - before I really understood that VHDL and Verilog are not programming languages. They're hardware description languages. I had to get that software developer brain damage out of my head and start anew! The good news is that the FPGA was a gateway drug. When I had my epiphany about hardware description langauges, I realized I'd better understand a little something about hardware, and that led to my buying a breadboard and some components. Now I have a fully stocked electronics workbench that's led to a lot of fun tinkering, and a much richer understanding of the computers that I've been collecting all these years. > brian -Seth From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jan 6 13:57:45 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 11:57:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Minimig (was new non-x86 mobos) In-Reply-To: <4B44E738.4030303@e-bbes.com> References: <4B44E738.4030303@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Jan 2010, e.stiebler wrote: > But there are enough powerpc based "amigas" out there, so what ? > Just a new dual-core PowerPC. It's a board with specs on par with modern computers. the other PowerPC based Amigas are stuck around 600-700 MHz. I'm not particularly interested in just running AmigaOS on it. > The FPGA based minimigs are more fun. Whatever you were ever missing on your > machine, just add it to it now ;-) I was wondering if it's possible to attach real floppy drives and/or hard drives to the Minimig -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From andy at flirble.org Wed Jan 6 14:05:20 2010 From: andy at flirble.org (Andrew Back) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 20:05:20 +0000 Subject: new non-x86 mobos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100106200520.GE28050@plum.flirble.org> On (11:15 06/01/10), David Griffith wrote: > > A couple weeks ago I was grousing about there being nothing in the realm > of non x86/amd64 motherboards. I stumbled across something new while > looking at the Minimig board: the X1000. Its appears to be a > multicore Power of some sort with ideas from the old Amiga machines mixed > in. See http://www.a-eon.com/ or http://www.a-eon.com/6.html if you don't > want to play the hide-and-seek game. XCore processor based according to XMOS employee Jonathan May: http://twitter.com/jonathan_may/status/7404 Who happens to be the son of David May, transputer architect, and now CTO of XMOS. The INMOS/XMOS similarities don't end with the name... Very cool stuff. http://www.xmos.com Cheers, Andrew -- Andrew Back a at smokebelch.org From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Jan 6 14:07:10 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 13:07:10 -0700 Subject: Minimig (was new non-x86 mobos) In-Reply-To: References: <4B44E738.4030303@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <4B44ED6E.7050005@e-bbes.com> David Griffith wrote: > On Wed, 6 Jan 2010, e.stiebler wrote: > >> The FPGA based minimigs are more fun. Whatever you were ever missing >> on your machine, just add it to it now ;-) > > I was wondering if it's possible to attach real floppy drives and/or > hard drives to the Minimig Whatfor ? The SD-Flashes are big enough, or what is your application for a real harddrive ? From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Jan 6 14:10:40 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 14:10:40 -0600 Subject: Minimig (was new non-x86 mobos) In-Reply-To: References: <4B44E738.4030303@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001061210i2996f576i9c9b8e5d13c487cf@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 1:57 PM, David Griffith wrote: > I was wondering if it's possible to attach real floppy drives and/or hard > drives to the Minimig No. But there's this: http://www.c64upgra.de/c-one/ Looks like a regular hard drive interface, and an interface for a 1571, but not the amiga floppy (yet). brian From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Jan 6 14:13:00 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 14:13:00 -0600 Subject: Minimig (was new non-x86 mobos) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381001061210i2996f576i9c9b8e5d13c487cf@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B44E738.4030303@e-bbes.com> <6dbe3c381001061210i2996f576i9c9b8e5d13c487cf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001061213k331f43b4l878261548850f0fb@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 2:10 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 1:57 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> I was wondering if it's possible to attach real floppy drives and/or hard >> drives to the Minimig > > No. ?But there's this: > > http://www.c64upgra.de/c-one/ > > Looks like a regular hard drive interface, and an interface for a > 1571, but not the amiga floppy (yet). Maybe I'm wrong. It supports DD floppy drives, so maybe it will read/write amiga floppies. The catweasel can do it. brian From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Jan 6 14:36:01 2010 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 20:36:01 +0000 Subject: Minimig (was new non-x86 mobos) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381001061210i2996f576i9c9b8e5d13c487cf@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B44E738.4030303@e-bbes.com> <6dbe3c381001061210i2996f576i9c9b8e5d13c487cf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100106203601.GB7096@mail.loomcom.com> * On Wed, Jan 06, 2010 at 02:10:40PM -0600, Brian Lanning wrote: > On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 1:57 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > I was wondering if it's possible to attach real floppy drives and/or hard > > drives to the Minimig > > No. But there's this: > > http://www.c64upgra.de/c-one/ > > Looks like a regular hard drive interface, and an interface for a > 1571, but not the amiga floppy (yet). The C-One is a really interesting project. I got one last year. Probably the most interesting thing about it is that it's something of a mystery! The original project was designed by Jeri Ellsworth (of the C64 DTV project), but the schematics and design docs were permanently lost and Jeri moved on to new projects. Even now, the maintainers are making new discoveries about how the damn thing is put together and how to write cores for it. They're reverse-engineering their own product. Like in the "good old days", over the life of the project various corrections and hacks have been made to the existing boards. If you buy one you'll notice traces have been dremeled out and jumpers added here and there, and there have been other "patches" released since I bought mine. I hope someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that they can't make new boards without doing a complete re-layout because of the lost design files. Another oddity: Even though it comes with a hardware 65816, none of the existing cores make any use of it. It is purely vestigial. One of the better changes was the addition of an extender card with a second, larger FPGA to give core developers access to more overall logic. It's allowed the C-One to be an excellent Minimig platform, with a fully in-FPGA 68000 implementation. If you want a really cool FPGA hacking board, I still recommend it. Just don't go into it expecting a polished finished product (They're very up-front and honest about this on the website when you go to buy.) > brian -Seth From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Jan 6 14:38:54 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 15:38:54 -0500 Subject: Commodore chip design files In-Reply-To: <369621.60202.qm@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <369621.60202.qm@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B44F4DE.6090305@verizon.net> geoffrey oltmans wrote: > That's really remarkable. I imagine that the masks are probably worthless for today's processes though. :( > > It would be a fantastic aid in reverse engineering though. > Absolutely!! Keith From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Jan 6 14:49:00 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 15:49:00 -0500 Subject: Minimig (was new non-x86 mobos) In-Reply-To: References: <4B44E738.4030303@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <4B44F73C.4080609@verizon.net> David Griffith wrote: > I was wondering if it's possible to attach real floppy drives and/or > hard drives to the Minimig Not in the current generation ones, no. There are simply no (other) connectors on the board --- may not be spare I/O pins either on the FPGA. The hard drive would require a controller, and a bunch of I/O pins. The current SD reader actually creates MFM to feed back into Paula which functions (among other things) as the FDC. Realistically, the amiga doesn't have an FDC ala NEC 765/Intel 8272. The amiga uses Paula as the DPLL, data and clock recovery, and provides indication of MFM SYNC. The CIA chips provide both input and output floppy control signals. The coordination of everything all together is handled by the CPU using trackdisk device within the ROM. MFM decoding is done via blitter within Agnus. There are add-on devices to add functionality, but they likely wouldn't be easy to interface...... Keith From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jan 6 15:25:56 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 13:25:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: new non-x86 mobos In-Reply-To: <575131af1001061132o7f2cb4ear19303f6ec66537a3@mail.gmail.com> from Liam Proven at "Jan 6, 10 07:32:12 pm" Message-ID: <201001062125.o06LPut9006102@floodgap.com> > Secondly, what makes me slightly hopeful is that the spec of the new > machine is not that ridiculous. It sounds like a PowerFicient chip > from (the late) PASemi - now part of Apple, AIUI - with a modern-ish > chipset and this mysterious custom chip. It's doable. If it ships, > though, I bet it'll be expensive. I too am very curious about the X1000. I played with a SAM ep440 and found it a remarkably useable system even in its current state under AmigaOS 4.0. I just wish someone would make a portable Amiga. It would be much more convenient than having to clear desk space for it. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- In memory of Greg Morris --------------------------------------------------- From hachti at hachti.de Wed Jan 6 15:29:48 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 22:29:48 +0100 Subject: emulating an Apple II+ in an FPGA In-Reply-To: <4B44CB20.4090107@verizon.net> References: <6dbe3c381001060728o5777d335n5dba54611ea5c14@mail.gmail.com> <4B44B9DA.1010604@verizon.net> <6dbe3c381001060852j3ee35ecaue60f8b66f36abd1a@mail.gmail.com> <4B44CB20.4090107@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B4500CC.6050209@hachti.de> > My current project is going to use picoblaze (8-bit microcontroller core > ) with hardware for a timer and time-critical things. Hm, that's a quite different thing than building an Apple computer in an FPGA :-) -- http://www.hachti.de From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 6 17:55:34 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 16:55:34 -0700 Subject: Tek 4404 documentation on eBay In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 06 Jan 2010 13:23:21 -0500. Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > > They could have instituted a double-blind contact > > system so that you could still contact winners, but neither party > > would know the identity of the other in the communication unless they > > chose to reveal it. =A0In other words, they could have solved the > > problem without fracturing the community. > > And then then is a huge exodus of sellers from Ebay... > > There has been talk for some time about Ebay doing exactly this, and > their is FIERCE opposition from the seller community. Well, I wasn't thinking that it would be double-blind between winner and seller, but between third-party observer and winner. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jan 6 18:18:16 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 16:18:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: amiga ppc running 68k code? Message-ID: Flipping through all sorts of thing Amiga, I was wondering how backwards-compatible the PPC varieties are. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Jan 6 19:00:22 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 19:00:22 -0600 Subject: amiga ppc running 68k code? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001061700r54c0d16ua026ec5b6dd49ffa@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 6:18 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > Flipping through all sorts of thing Amiga, I was wondering how > backwards-compatible the PPC varieties are. The amigas that run powerpc software have powerpc processors. Toward their end, there were a few processor upgrade boards that contained both 68060 and powerpc processors. 603e I think. ppc and 68k aren't compatible. brian From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jan 6 19:35:43 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 01:35:43 +0000 Subject: amiga ppc running 68k code? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <575131af1001061735l2511dd66j8505c5ecae109f0e@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 12:18 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > Flipping through all sorts of thing Amiga, I was wondering how > backwards-compatible the PPC varieties are. AIUI - alas, not played with any of them myself - it depends more on the OS than on the H/W. All the 3 main PPC Amiga OSs (AmigaOS 4.x, MorphOS and the I-believe-still-somewhat-experimental port of AROS) include some form of 68K emulation. I think AROS' is still the most primitive, being more or less an embedded copy of UAE. The others have 68K interpreters and thunk API calls through to the native OS, in more or less the same fashion as a classic PowerMac running 68K code under System 7/8/9. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 6 21:22:39 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 19:22:39 -0800 Subject: 1Kx8 EPROMs Intel 8208 vs. 2708 Message-ID: <4B44E2FF.24429.2359D6C@cclist.sydex.com> Does anyone know the differences between the Intel 8708 and 2708 EPROMs? Thanks, Chuck From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Jan 6 23:34:59 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 00:34:59 -0500 Subject: Commodore chip design files Message-ID: <01CA8F31.5096A5A0@MSE_D03> Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 11:36:30 -0800 (PST) From: David Griffith Subject: Re: Commodore chip design files On Wed, 6 Jan 2010, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > > Someone is acquiring and going through old 9-track tapes of chip > > design files produced by Atari during their heyday. See > > http://www.atariage.com/ for the story. Does anyone know anything > > about what happened to Commodore's design files? > That's really remarkable. I imagine that the masks are probably > worthless for today's processes though. :( > > It would be a fantastic aid in reverse engineering though. I'm interested in seeing the guts of the SID. Perhaps newer and more advanced ones can be made. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu --------------------------------------------------------------------------- No problem: http://mail.lipsia.de/~enigma/neu/6581.html#SIDR2 mike ************************************************************* From marvin at west.net Thu Jan 7 01:11:03 2010 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 23:11:03 -0800 Subject: Hero Jr Manuals Message-ID: <4B458907.7010309@west.net> From the Heathkit Listserver: Subject: F.S. HERO JR MANUALS From: k2sse Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 13:23:58 -0500 1 ea Hero Jr Programmers guide $10 shipped conus. 1 set Hero Jr Programming Language book and 1 ea Hero Jr Owners guide. $7 shipped conus. Thank you Al From wgungfu at gmail.com Wed Jan 6 17:01:30 2010 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 17:01:30 -0600 Subject: Commodore chip design files In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2c768b1e1001061501t619d3775p4a2a5a1104ba65f9@mail.gmail.com> That's list member and uber Atari historian Curt Vendel. And he acquired them years ago, he has most of the Atari mainframe backups. Marty On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 1:04 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > Someone is acquiring and going through old 9-track tapes of chip design > files produced by Atari during their heyday. ?See http://www.atariage.com/ > for the story. ?Does anyone know anything about what happened to Commodore's > design files? > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Jan 6 17:06:39 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 18:06:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Commodore chip design files In-Reply-To: <369621.60202.qm@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <369621.60202.qm@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Jan 2010, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > That's really remarkable. I imagine that the masks are probably > worthless for today's processes though. :( s/probably/definitely/ > It would be a fantastic aid in reverse engineering though. That's the real value. A decent LVS tool can derive a netlist from the layout file. From there, it's grunt-work organizing devices into functional gates and getting a usable schematic. Given the relatively small size of ancient layouts, I bet that there are free tools capable of this analysis. For comparison, current processors can have upwards of a billion transistors. Extracting the netlist for checking mask data against the as-designed schematic is quite non-trivial. Doing it in a reasonably short amount of time - even more so. Disclaimer: I'm heavily involved with LVS and netlist extraction in my day job. Steve -- From shumaker at att.net Thu Jan 7 06:06:48 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (shumaker at att.net) Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2010 12:06:48 +0000 Subject: Hero Jr Manuals In-Reply-To: <4B458907.7010309@west.net> Message-ID: <010720101206.29682.4B45CE580005E156000073F222230647029B0A02D29B9B0EBF9D0A050E039A089C@att.net> where does one get on the Heathkit Listserver? steve -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Marvin Johnston > > > From the Heathkit Listserver: > > Subject: > F.S. HERO JR MANUALS > From: > k2sse > Date: > Wed, 6 Jan 2010 13:23:58 -0500 > > 1 ea Hero Jr Programmers guide > $10 shipped conus. > > 1 set Hero Jr Programming Language book and 1 ea Hero Jr Owners guide. > $7 shipped conus. > > Thank you > Al From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jan 7 12:01:48 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 10:01:48 -0800 Subject: 1Kx8 EPROMs Intel 8208 vs. 2708 In-Reply-To: <4B44E2FF.24429.2359D6C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B44E2FF.24429.2359D6C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 19:22:39 -0800 > Subject: 1Kx8 EPROMs Intel 8208 vs. 2708 > > Does anyone know the differences between the Intel 8708 and 2708 > EPROMs? > > Thanks, > Chuck > Hi Chuck The subject line is a little confusing. I looked at the two data sheets and can't find anything that is different. The 1702A and 4702A have a different negative voltage but I see no difference between the 8708 and the 2708. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390710/direct/01/ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 7 12:14:40 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2010 10:14:40 -0800 Subject: 1Kx8 EPROMs Intel 8208 vs. 2708 In-Reply-To: References: <4B44E2FF.24429.2359D6C@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B45B410.27854.5620D@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Jan 2010 at 10:01, dwight elvey wrote: > Hi Chuck > The subject line is a little confusing. > I looked at the two data sheets and can't find > anything that is different. > The 1702A and 4702A have a different negative > voltage but I see no difference between the 8708 > and the 2708. > Sorry, it's the 8708/2708. There's a seller on eBay selling a bunch of Tesla (Czech) NOS 8708s. Since I wasn't familiar with the part and any web searches brought me to the 2708 datasheet, I wondered if there was some practical reason for the difference in part numbering. --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jan 7 12:46:54 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 10:46:54 -0800 Subject: 1Kx8 EPROMs Intel 8208 vs. 2708 In-Reply-To: <4B45B410.27854.5620D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B44E2FF.24429.2359D6C@cclist.sydex.com>, , , <4B45B410.27854.5620D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 10:14:40 -0800 > Subject: RE: 1Kx8 EPROMs Intel 8208 vs. 2708 > > On 7 Jan 2010 at 10:01, dwight elvey wrote: > > > Hi Chuck > > The subject line is a little confusing. > > I looked at the two data sheets and can't find > > anything that is different. > > The 1702A and 4702A have a different negative > > voltage but I see no difference between the 8708 > > and the 2708. > > > Sorry, it's the 8708/2708. There's a seller on eBay selling a bunch > of Tesla (Czech) NOS 8708s. Since I wasn't familiar with the part > and any web searches brought me to the 2708 datasheet, I wondered if > there was some practical reason for the difference in part numbering. > > --Chuck > Hi Chuck Look on one of Harte's pdfs at: http://vt100.net/mirror/harte/Intel/ for the 8708 see in: Intel 8080 System Manual.pdf for the 2708 see in: C-160 mem Design Hndbk_May77.pdf There doesn't seem to be any spec difference. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390707/direct/01/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jan 7 12:53:13 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 10:53:13 -0800 Subject: Nicolet DSO ExplorerIII model 206 In-Reply-To: <4B45B410.27854.5620D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B44E2FF.24429.2359D6C@cclist.sydex.com>, , , <4B45B410.27854.5620D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Hi I just picked up one of these old scopes. On trying to power up, one of the tantalums was blown on the +12 line. It had taken out the 0.39 ohm resistor in the power supply as well. I was wondering if anyone had any more information on these scopes. I know that the sample rate is not really high (100KHz) but they do look like fun to play with. It has at least two TMS9900 processors in it and lots of 2111 type RAMs. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390710/direct/01/ From marvin at west.net Thu Jan 7 13:31:18 2010 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2010 11:31:18 -0800 Subject: Hero Jr Manuals Message-ID: <4B463686.8010805@west.net> > From: shumaker at att.net > > where does one get on the Heathkit Listserver? It has been a long time since I first got on the listserver. The information at the bottom of the digest that may help is: ----------------------------------------------------------- Products bought, sold or traded here is the responsibility of the parties involved. This list and the City of Tempe are not responsible for losses or misrepresentations of any kind. Buyer beware! ----------------------------------------------------------- This list is a public service of the City of Tempe, Arizona ----------------------------------------------------------- Subscription control - http://www.tempe.gov/lists/control.aspx?list=HEATH To post - HEATH at LISTS.TEMPE.GOV Archives - http://lists.tempe.gov/archives/HEATH.html From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jan 7 14:29:04 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2010 20:29:04 +0000 Subject: 1Kx8 EPROMs Intel 8208 vs. 2708 In-Reply-To: References: <4B44E2FF.24429.2359D6C@cclist.sydex.com>, , , <4B45B410.27854.5620D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B464410.4060602@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/01/2010 18:46, dwight elvey wrote: >> Sorry, it's the 8708/2708. There's a seller on eBay selling a bunch >> of Tesla (Czech) NOS 8708s. Since I wasn't familiar with the part >> and any web searches brought me to the 2708 datasheet, I wondered if >> there was some practical reason for the difference in part numbering. > for the 8708 see in: Intel 8080 System Manual.pdf > for the 2708 see in: C-160 mem Design Hndbk_May77.pdf > > There doesn't seem to be any spec difference. Dwight's right. I meant to check last night, but I just looked in my Intel 1976 and 1979 Data Catalogs. In the 1976 edition, the 2708 is listed in the EPROMs section while the 8708 is listed in the MCS-80 section. The only differences in the data are that the 2708 gives slightly more information, including "typical" values for some parameters. In the 1979 edition, they're listed on the same pages, ie there's one entry for 2708/8708 in the EPROM section and one entry for i2708/i8708 in the Industrial section (and on entry for M2708 -- no 8708 -- in the Military section). The 2708/8708 entry explicitly says "All 8708 specifications are identical to the 2708 specifications". I suspect they just gave it an alternate number to fit the 8080 family. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From tpeters at mixcom.com Thu Jan 7 15:00:05 2010 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2010 15:00:05 -0600 Subject: Nicolet DSO ExplorerIII model 206 In-Reply-To: References: <4B45B410.27854.5620D@cclist.sydex.com> <4B44E2FF.24429.2359D6C@cclist.sydex.com> <4B45B410.27854.5620D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20100107145855.00be40e8@localhost> At 10:53 AM 1/7/2010 -0800, you wrote: >Hi > I just picked up one of these old scopes. On trying to power >up, one of the tantalums was blown on the +12 line. >It had taken out the 0.39 ohm resistor in the power supply as >well. Not specifically, but when I got my Tek 7904, I had to replace all the tantalums in the power supply. Works good now. DigiKey is my friend. -T ----- 566. [Sex] When women go wrong, men go right after them. --Mae West (1893?-1980) --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixcom.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 7 17:08:45 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2010 15:08:45 -0800 Subject: 1Kx8 EPROMs Intel 8208 vs. 2708 In-Reply-To: <4B464410.4060602@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4B44E2FF.24429.2359D6C@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4B464410.4060602@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4B45F8FD.22034.112A023@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Jan 2010 at 20:29, Pete Turnbull wrote: > In the 1976 edition, the 2708 is listed in the EPROMs section while > the 8708 is listed in the MCS-80 section. The only differences in the > data are that the 2708 gives slightly more information, including > "typical" values for some parameters. In the 1979 edition, they're > listed on the same pages, ie there's one entry for 2708/8708 in the > EPROM section and one entry for i2708/i8708 in the Industrial section > (and on entry for M2708 -- no 8708 -- in the Military section). The > 2708/8708 entry explicitly says "All 8708 specifications are identical > to the 2708 specifications". I suspect they just gave it an alternate > number to fit the 8080 family. Thanks, that clears up a lot. On a related issue, where can one obtain 2758 EPROMs ? I know you can jigger around a 2716 to work, but the 1Kx8 5v-only part would be good to have. --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jan 7 18:12:29 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 16:12:29 -0800 Subject: 1Kx8 EPROMs Intel 8208 vs. 2708 In-Reply-To: <4B45F8FD.22034.112A023@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B44E2FF.24429.2359D6C@cclist.sydex.com>, , , , <4B464410.4060602@dunnington.plus.com>, <4B45F8FD.22034.112A023@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 15:08:45 -0800 > Subject: Re: 1Kx8 EPROMs Intel 8208 vs. 2708 > > On 7 Jan 2010 at 20:29, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > In the 1976 edition, the 2708 is listed in the EPROMs section while > > the 8708 is listed in the MCS-80 section. The only differences in the > > data are that the 2708 gives slightly more information, including > > "typical" values for some parameters. In the 1979 edition, they're > > listed on the same pages, ie there's one entry for 2708/8708 in the > > EPROM section and one entry for i2708/i8708 in the Industrial section > > (and on entry for M2708 -- no 8708 -- in the Military section). The > > 2708/8708 entry explicitly says "All 8708 specifications are identical > > to the 2708 specifications". I suspect they just gave it an alternate > > number to fit the 8080 family. > > Thanks, that clears up a lot. > > On a related issue, where can one obtain 2758 EPROMs ? I know you > can jigger around a 2716 to work, but the 1Kx8 5v-only part would be > good to have. > > --Chuck > Hi Chuck The intel 2758s were 2716s. Both H and L types. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390706/direct/01/ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 7 19:21:40 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2010 17:21:40 -0800 Subject: 1Kx8 EPROMs Intel 8208 vs. 2708 In-Reply-To: References: <4B44E2FF.24429.2359D6C@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B45F8FD.22034.112A023@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B461824.6056.18C5359@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Jan 2010 at 16:12, dwight elvey wrote: > The intel 2758s were 2716s. Both H and L types. Was there ever a 5v-only pin-compatible for the 2708? I've seen references to a 2508, but have never run across one. Thanks, Chuck From shumaker at att.net Thu Jan 7 19:37:59 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2010 20:37:59 -0500 Subject: Hero Jr Manuals In-Reply-To: <4B463686.8010805@west.net> References: <4B463686.8010805@west.net> Message-ID: <4B468C77.1070803@att.net> thanks! seems primarily focused on ham radio equipment but does have some occasional comments on the early heath computers. thanks for the link steve Marvin Johnston wrote: >> From: shumaker at att.net >> >> where does one get on the Heathkit Listserver? > > It has been a long time since I first got on the listserver. The > information at the bottom of the digest that may help is: > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Products bought, sold or traded here is the responsibility of the > parties involved. This list and the City of Tempe are not responsible > for losses or misrepresentations of any kind. Buyer beware! > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > This list is a public service of the City of Tempe, Arizona > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Subscription control - http://www.tempe.gov/lists/control.aspx?list=HEATH > To post - HEATH at LISTS.TEMPE.GOV > Archives - http://lists.tempe.gov/archives/HEATH.html > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jan 7 22:54:36 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 23:54:36 -0500 Subject: Nicolet DSO ExplorerIII model 206 In-Reply-To: References: <4B44E2FF.24429.2359D6C@cclist.sydex.com>, , , <4B45B410.27854.5620D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Jan 7, 2010, at 1:53 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > I just picked up one of these old scopes. On trying to power > up, one of the tantalums was blown on the +12 line. > It had taken out the 0.39 ohm resistor in the power supply as > well. > I was wondering if anyone had any more information on these > scopes. I know that the sample rate is not really high (100KHz) but > they do look like fun to play with. I don't have any docs or anything (wish I did) but I can tell you that these are fantastic scopes. They're not very fast because they tend to have quite a bit of vertical resolution; it was apparently a RAM trade-off. I used one briefly in a lab I worked in many years ago (1988 I think) and it was amazing. When one appeared at a surplus dealer that I visited in the late 1990s, I jumped at the chance to grab it. Now I have three instruments in that series...two of which now have blown power supplies. :-( This happened years ago; eventually I'll dig into them. > It has at least two TMS9900 processors in it and lots of 2111 > type RAMs. Neat! I've never opened mine. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From sourdif.pierre at yahoo.ca Thu Jan 7 13:15:28 2010 From: sourdif.pierre at yahoo.ca (Pierre Sourdif) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 11:15:28 -0800 Subject: Need Alpha Microsystems Videotrax hardware Message-ID: <000001ca8fcd$c6873da0$5395b8e0$@pierre@yahoo.ca> I have a Videotrax VHS that I am willing to give if somebody is willing to pay the shipping cost from Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada. mailto:sourdif.pierre at yahoo.ca From rich.cini at verizon.net Thu Jan 7 19:55:33 2010 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2010 20:55:33 -0500 Subject: Commodore chip design files In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 1/6/10 6:06 PM, "Steven Hirsch" wrote: > On Wed, 6 Jan 2010, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > >> That's really remarkable. I imagine that the masks are probably >> worthless for today's processes though. :( > > s/probably/definitely/ > >> It would be a fantastic aid in reverse engineering though. > > That's the real value. A decent LVS tool can derive a netlist from the > layout file. From there, it's grunt-work organizing devices into > functional gates and getting a usable schematic. Given the relatively > small size of ancient layouts, I bet that there are free tools capable of > this analysis. > > For comparison, current processors can have upwards of a billion > transistors. Extracting the netlist for checking mask data against the > as-designed schematic is quite non-trivial. Doing it in a reasonably > short amount of time - even more so. > > Disclaimer: I'm heavily involved with LVS and netlist extraction in my day > job. > > Steve Isn't this the process used to create schematics of the 4004? Rich From Mark at Misty.com Thu Jan 7 23:09:00 2010 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G. Thomas) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 00:09:00 -0500 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <4B414626.3070703@comcast.net> References: <6dbe3c381001031657q1e9845d4yaeea4c5047ef1837@mail.gmail.com> <4B414626.3070703@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20100108050900.GA40755@allie.home.misty.com> Hi, On Sun, Jan 03, 2010 at 08:36:38PM -0500, Dan Roganti wrote: > > Brian Lanning wrote: > >In this case, there's plastic in the way on the component side. > > In this case, you can also apply extra heat with a pencil tip iron > to the side of the desolder tip on the same side of the pcb. > > >Adding heat did the trick though. I went out into the garage and > >grabbed my propane torch (1 quart bottle size). > > nothing like the brute force method :) I've actually found that a a torch on one side of the board and a pair of pliers on the other is an excellent way of removing many components, no soldering iron involved, since the torch makes it easy to heat all the pins of an IC or connector simultaneously. Of course, the board doesn't end up in such good shape... Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com) Web: http://mgtinternet.com/ Tel: +1-215-512-0112 US: 877-512-0112 From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 8 00:03:33 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2010 22:03:33 -0800 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <20100108050900.GA40755@allie.home.misty.com> References: <6dbe3c381001031657q1e9845d4yaeea4c5047ef1837@mail.gmail.com>, <4B414626.3070703@comcast.net>, <20100108050900.GA40755@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: <4B465A35.23173.28E6506@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Jan 2010 at 0:09, Mark G. Thomas wrote: > I've actually found that a a torch on one side of the board and > a pair of pliers on the other is an excellent way of removing many > components, no soldering iron involved, since the torch makes it easy > to heat all the pins of an IC or connector simultaneously. > > Of course, the board doesn't end up in such good shape... ...and your respiratory system might end up in the same shape unless you do this sort of thing outdoors and upwind or with forced air ventilation in your work area. Those resins that boil out of the PCB are pretty nasty. I can't comment on the lead content of the vapors either. Just be careful. --Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Jan 8 00:10:14 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 01:10:14 -0500 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) References: <6dbe3c381001031657q1e9845d4yaeea4c5047ef1837@mail.gmail.com>, <4B414626.3070703@comcast.net>, <20100108050900.GA40755@allie.home.misty.com> <4B465A35.23173.28E6506@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 1:03 AM Subject: Re: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) > On 8 Jan 2010 at 0:09, Mark G. Thomas wrote: > >> I've actually found that a a torch on one side of the board and >> a pair of pliers on the other is an excellent way of removing many >> components, no soldering iron involved, since the torch makes it easy >> to heat all the pins of an IC or connector simultaneously. >> >> Of course, the board doesn't end up in such good shape... > > ...and your respiratory system might end up in the same shape unless > you do this sort of thing outdoors and upwind or with forced air > ventilation in your work area. Those resins that boil out of the PCB > are pretty nasty. I can't comment on the lead content of the vapors > either. > > Just be careful. > > --Chuck > How many people here do soldering (using lead solder) indoors with no way of getting the smoke out of the house? From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 8 00:27:07 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2010 22:27:07 -0800 Subject: desoldering problems and technique; toxics In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c381001031657q1e9845d4yaeea4c5047ef1837@mail.gmail.com>, Message-ID: <4B465FBB.12533.2A3F5B7@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Jan 2010 at 1:10, Teo Zenios wrote: > How many people here do soldering (using lead solder) indoors with no > way of getting the smoke out of the house? Almost all of the "smoke" is burning flux, not solder. Compared to the amount of solder I use in my other hobby--brass musical instrument repair--I suspect that the amount of airborne lead is miniscule when a PCB is soldered. Lead has quite a high (1740C) boiling point, so the vapor pressure of lead at normal (217C) 63-37 Sn-Pb solder melting point is probably very low. However, I don't know about torching PCBs. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jan 8 01:08:16 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 00:08:16 -0700 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c381001031657q1e9845d4yaeea4c5047ef1837@mail.gmail.com>, <4B414626.3070703@comcast.net>, <20100108050900.GA40755@allie.home.misty.com> <4B465A35.23173.28E6506@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B46D9E0.3080906@jetnet.ab.ca> Teo Zenios wrote: > > How many people here do soldering (using lead solder) indoors with no > way of getting the smoke out of the house? > Cough, Cough, Cough! Then I open the window! From whsiung at simconsultants.com Fri Jan 8 02:04:49 2010 From: whsiung at simconsultants.com (Winnie Hsiung) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 16:04:49 +0800 Subject: SGI Part/System Message-ID: <004701ca9039$424da1c0$c6e8e540$@com> Hello, I came across your post online asking to trade a SGI Iris system and I wonder if you might have another SGI system called Onyx 10000 laying around for trade or sale? Or if you have any boards removed from this system, please let me know. Thank you & I look forward to hearing from you. Best Regards, Winnie Hsiung CentraTech Corporation From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jan 8 08:02:28 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 06:02:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c381001031657q1e9845d4yaeea4c5047ef1837@mail.gmail.com>, <4B414626.3070703@comcast.net>, <20100108050900.GA40755@allie.home.misty.com> <4B465A35.23173.28E6506@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > > How many people here do soldering (using lead solder) indoors with no way of > getting the smoke out of the house? > *raises hand* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jan 8 08:23:36 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 06:23:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: from Gene Buckle at "Jan 8, 10 06:02:28 am" Message-ID: <201001081423.o08ENaRS012384@floodgap.com> > > How many people here do soldering (using lead solder) indoors with no way > > of getting the smoke out of the house? > > *raises hand* *tries to raise hand but has radial neuropathy from the lead* -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "My inner geek can beat up your inner geek." ------------------------------- From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Jan 8 08:56:00 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 06:56:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <201001081423.o08ENaRS012384@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <767744.1686.qm@web52606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 1/8/10, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > How many people here do > soldering (using lead solder) indoors with no way > > > of getting the smoke out of the house? > > > > *raises hand* > > *tries to raise hand but has radial neuropathy from the > lead* *raises hand* But... if you're soldering correctly, there really shouldn't be a whole lot of smoke - and most of what's smoke should really just be flux burning off. So, I don't see anything wrong with soldering in poorly ventalated areas. It' snot liek iit can cuase drain bamage. -Ian From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jan 8 09:01:35 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 07:01:35 -0800 Subject: 1Kx8 EPROMs Intel 8208 vs. 2708 In-Reply-To: <4B461824.6056.18C5359@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B44E2FF.24429.2359D6C@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4B45F8FD.22034.112A023@cclist.sydex.com>, , , <4B461824.6056.18C5359@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Hi Chuck To my knowledge, one always had to remove the other voltage and tie the pin. Dwight > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 17:21:40 -0800 > Subject: RE: 1Kx8 EPROMs Intel 8208 vs. 2708 > > On 7 Jan 2010 at 16:12, dwight elvey wrote: > > > The intel 2758s were 2716s. Both H and L types. > > Was there ever a 5v-only pin-compatible for the 2708? I've seen > references to a 2508, but have never run across one. > > Thanks, > Chuck > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390706/direct/01/ From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jan 8 09:04:52 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 10:04:52 -0500 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <4B465A35.23173.28E6506@cclist.sydex.com> References: <6dbe3c381001031657q1e9845d4yaeea4c5047ef1837@mail.gmail.com>, <4B414626.3070703@comcast.net>, <20100108050900.GA40755@allie.home.misty.com> <4B465A35.23173.28E6506@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B474994.8000809@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > ...and your respiratory system might end up in the same shape unless > you do this sort of thing outdoors and upwind or with forced air > ventilation in your work area. Those resins that boil out of the PCB > are pretty nasty. I can't comment on the lead content of the vapors > either. The flux is quite toxic also. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jan 8 09:08:19 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 10:08:19 -0500 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c381001031657q1e9845d4yaeea4c5047ef1837@mail.gmail.com>, <4B414626.3070703@comcast.net>, <20100108050900.GA40755@allie.home.misty.com> <4B465A35.23173.28E6506@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B474A63.1040903@gmail.com> Teo Zenios wrote: > How many people here do soldering (using lead solder) indoors with no > way of getting the smoke out of the house? I do, but I wear a half-face respirator with cartridges designed for lead and flux. Peace... Sridhar From sethm at loomcom.com Fri Jan 8 12:14:39 2010 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 18:14:39 +0000 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c381001031657q1e9845d4yaeea4c5047ef1837@mail.gmail.com> <4B414626.3070703@comcast.net> <20100108050900.GA40755@allie.home.misty.com> <4B465A35.23173.28E6506@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100108181439.GA22115@mail.loomcom.com> * On Fri, Jan 08, 2010 at 01:10:14AM -0500, Teo Zenios wrote: > > How many people here do soldering (using lead solder) indoors with > no way of getting the smoke out of the house? > I certainly do, though I have table-top Weller solder fume extractor that filters at least some of the fumes. I've inhaled my fair share of burning flux nevertheless. There seems to be some magic at work such that no matter where I sit, no matter what angle I hold the iron, no matter where I put the fume extractor, and no matter how much I hold my breath... the main tendril of solder smoke will aim directly for my nostrils, without fail. I'm sure this power could be used for good, if only I knew how. -Seth From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jan 8 12:52:44 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 11:52:44 -0700 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <767744.1686.qm@web52606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <767744.1686.qm@web52606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B477EFC.3010203@jetnet.ab.ca> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > But... if you're soldering correctly, there really shouldn't be a > whole lot of smoke - and most of what's smoke should really just be > flux burning off. So, I don't see anything wrong with soldering in > poorly ventalated areas. It' snot liek iit can cuase drain bamage. I had bad spelling long before I could solder. :) > -Ian > From keithvz at verizon.net Fri Jan 8 12:53:45 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 13:53:45 -0500 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <20100108181439.GA22115@mail.loomcom.com> References: <6dbe3c381001031657q1e9845d4yaeea4c5047ef1837@mail.gmail.com> <4B414626.3070703@comcast.net> <20100108050900.GA40755@allie.home.misty.com> <4B465A35.23173.28E6506@cclist.sydex.com> <20100108181439.GA22115@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: <4B477F39.5000101@verizon.net> Seth Morabito wrote: > There seems to be some magic at work such that no matter where I sit, no > matter what angle I hold the iron, no matter where I put the fume > extractor, and no matter how much I hold my breath... the main tendril > of solder smoke will aim directly for my nostrils, without fail. I'm > sure this power could be used for good, if only I knew how. We should join forces. If I'm at a establishment that allows smoking (still some around), no matter where I am in the room, the smoke from the person-closest-to-me's cigarette will come directly in my face. If I move to avoid it, the smoke will follow. Keith From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Jan 8 12:59:18 2010 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 12:59:18 -0600 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 77, Issue 11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:00 -0600 1/8/10, Teo wrote: >How many people here do soldering (using lead solder) indoors with no way of >getting the smoke out of the house? Used to, my wife, bless her heart, convinced me to do it on the balcony hereafter. *Normally* San Antonio is warm enough to make that practical.... (In my defense, I used to do it in the bathroom with the exhaust fan on.) At 12:00 -0600 1/8/10, Ian wrote: >It' snot liek iit can cuase drain bamage. :-) yeh, wtah he sed. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Jan 8 13:06:54 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 14:06:54 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 77, Issue 11 References: Message-ID: <996DB4D734F942D0938A117A036393C9@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Tapley" To: Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 1:59 PM Subject: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 77, Issue 11 > At 12:00 -0600 1/8/10, Teo wrote: >>How many people here do soldering (using lead solder) indoors with no way >>of >>getting the smoke out of the house? > > Used to, my wife, bless her heart, convinced me to do > it on the balcony hereafter. *Normally* San Antonio is warm enough to make > that practical.... > > (In my defense, I used to do it in the bathroom with the exhaust fan on.) I admit to soldering in the basement but there is not that much smoke fixing small boards. If you ever get a whiff of the smoke it is nasty. From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Fri Jan 8 13:13:06 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 11:13:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <20100108181439.GA22115@mail.loomcom.com> References: <6dbe3c381001031657q1e9845d4yaeea4c5047ef1837@mail.gmail.com> <4B414626.3070703@comcast.net> <20100108050900.GA40755@allie.home.misty.com> <4B465A35.23173.28E6506@cclist.sydex.com> <20100108181439.GA22115@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: <905690.32439.qm@web83904.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> ditto. I've been inhaling solder fumes for as long as I can remember...which admittedly these days seems to be less and less. Perhaps this is a contributing factor. :) ________________________________ From: Seth Morabito To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Fri, January 8, 2010 12:14:39 PM Subject: Re: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) * On Fri, Jan 08, 2010 at 01:10:14AM -0500, Teo Zenios wrote: > > How many people here do soldering (using lead solder) indoors with > no way of getting the smoke out of the house? > I certainly do, though I have table-top Weller solder fume extractor that filters at least some of the fumes. I've inhaled my fair share of burning flux nevertheless. There seems to be some magic at work such that no matter where I sit, no matter what angle I hold the iron, no matter where I put the fume extractor, and no matter how much I hold my breath... the main tendril of solder smoke will aim directly for my nostrils, without fail. I'm sure this power could be used for good, if only I knew how. -Seth From labomb_s at yahoo.com Fri Jan 8 13:17:57 2010 From: labomb_s at yahoo.com (Scott LaBombard) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 11:17:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Chrislin Industries Q-bus memory module Message-ID: <398882.48338.qm@web110812.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi folks, I'm in the process of resurrecting a Heathkit H-11 (essentially a DEC LSI-11) that I acquired a few years back. It came with a memory card that, after much creative research, I've determined is a Chrislin Industries CI-1103 module. It's a 32kw board with no parity, and it uses 4116 16kx1 dynamic RAM chips. It has two 8-position DIP switches for configuration. Would anyone happen to have any details relative to configuring this board? Thx... Scott From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 8 13:25:41 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 14:25:41 -0500 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <4B474A63.1040903@gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c381001031657q1e9845d4yaeea4c5047ef1837@mail.gmail.com>, <4B414626.3070703@comcast.net>, <20100108050900.GA40755@allie.home.misty.com> <4B465A35.23173.28E6506@cclist.sydex.com> <4B474A63.1040903@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6DCA65FF-CD2C-479D-9793-9A7F33FD5212@neurotica.com> On Jan 8, 2010, at 10:08 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> How many people here do soldering (using lead solder) indoors with no >> way of getting the smoke out of the house? > > I do, but I wear a half-face respirator with cartridges designed > for lead and flux. And farts! (if that's the same respirator..) > -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 8 13:31:47 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 14:31:47 -0500 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <20100108181439.GA22115@mail.loomcom.com> References: <6dbe3c381001031657q1e9845d4yaeea4c5047ef1837@mail.gmail.com> <4B414626.3070703@comcast.net> <20100108050900.GA40755@allie.home.misty.com> <4B465A35.23173.28E6506@cclist.sydex.com> <20100108181439.GA22115@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: <0B3626F2-FBE8-4ABE-845E-99A001EA5D73@neurotica.com> On Jan 8, 2010, at 1:14 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: >> How many people here do soldering (using lead solder) indoors with >> no way of getting the smoke out of the house? > > I certainly do, though I have table-top Weller solder fume extractor > that filters at least some of the fumes. I've inhaled my fair share of > burning flux nevertheless. > > There seems to be some magic at work such that no matter where I > sit, no > matter what angle I hold the iron, no matter where I put the fume > extractor, and no matter how much I hold my breath... the main tendril > of solder smoke will aim directly for my nostrils, without fail. I'm > sure this power could be used for good, if only I knew how. I have the exact same problem. Sure is annoying. Fume extractors and bench ionizers (blower style) solve that problem for me. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Jan 8 13:46:15 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 11:46:15 -0800 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) References: <6dbe3c381001031657q1e9845d4yaeea4c5047ef1837@mail.gmail.com> <4B414626.3070703@comcast.net> <20100108050900.GA40755@allie.home.misty.com> <4B465A35.23173.28E6506@cclist.sydex.com> <20100108181439.GA22115@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: <4B478B86.3C31198F@cs.ubc.ca> Seth Morabito wrote: > > I certainly do, though I have table-top Weller solder fume extractor > that filters at least some of the fumes. I've inhaled my fair share of > burning flux nevertheless. > > There seems to be some magic at work such that no matter where I sit, no > matter what angle I hold the iron, no matter where I put the fume > extractor, and no matter how much I hold my breath... the main tendril > of solder smoke will aim directly for my nostrils, without fail. Ya, that effect sure can be annoying. I've figured it has to do with convection air flow from body heat adding to that of the soldering iron and drawing the smoke over to one's head. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 8 13:00:58 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 19:00:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 1Kx8 EPROMs Intel 8208 vs. 2708 In-Reply-To: <4B461824.6056.18C5359@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 7, 10 05:21:40 pm Message-ID: > > On 7 Jan 2010 at 16:12, dwight elvey wrote: > > > The intel 2758s were 2716s. Both H and L types. > > Was there ever a 5v-only pin-compatible for the 2708? I've seen > references to a 2508, but have never run across one. I have one -- in the FTS 88 keybord behind me (it contains the firmware for the COP800 microcontroller in that keyboard). But as Dwight said, the 2758 is a half-good 2716 (the difference between the H and L versions is which half is good -- you had to tie one pin externally high or low -- the A10 pin on a 2716 of course) depending on which half you were supposed to use). I wouldn't be surprised if some 2758s were fully-good 2716s, acutally... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 8 13:11:38 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 19:11:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: from "Teo Zenios" at Jan 8, 10 01:10:14 am Message-ID: > How many people here do soldering (using lead solder) indoors with no way of > getting the smoke out of the house? I've been doing it for well over 30 years and it hasn't killed me yet... -tony From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jan 8 13:48:47 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 14:48:47 -0500 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <6DCA65FF-CD2C-479D-9793-9A7F33FD5212@neurotica.com> References: <6dbe3c381001031657q1e9845d4yaeea4c5047ef1837@mail.gmail.com>, <4B414626.3070703@comcast.net>, <20100108050900.GA40755@allie.home.misty.com> <4B465A35.23173.28E6506@cclist.sydex.com> <4B474A63.1040903@gmail.com> <6DCA65FF-CD2C-479D-9793-9A7F33FD5212@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B478C1F.5090000@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >>> How many people here do soldering (using lead solder) indoors with no >>> way of getting the smoke out of the house? >> >> I do, but I wear a half-face respirator with cartridges designed for >> lead and flux. > > And farts! (if that's the same respirator..) It is, indeed! Peace... Sridhar From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Jan 8 14:34:41 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 15:34:41 -0500 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) References: Message-ID: <855811248C914AD2AF36935EEE2CCA9D@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 2:11 PM Subject: Re: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) >> How many people here do soldering (using lead solder) indoors with no way >> of >> getting the smoke out of the house? > > I've been doing it for well over 30 years and it hasn't killed me yet... > > -tony Yea, well for all we know you look like an ash colored zombie stiffly walking into Radioshack with outstretched arms mumbling "brains... err flux, rosin core solder, flux!" ;) On a serious note, even lead poisining doesn't directly kill you but it sure screws you up. From classiccmp at crash.com Fri Jan 8 14:37:13 2010 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 12:37:13 -0800 Subject: OS/2-related stuff, low-$ Message-ID: <4B479779.5000105@crash.com> At work we're clearing out half my floor to consolidate office space. What we don't set aside or spirit away by EOD today will be cleared out by some contractor next week. We've been told repeatedly that the stuff will be trashed, not salvaged, and they don't use open/untended dumpsters. We also have /assinine/ [sic] rules about removal of anything and everything from the office - I can't haul out plain boxes of stuff, but if it fits in a bag or backpack I can slowly remove it. It's enough of a pain that I'm asking for a couple bucks more than just S&H, but if it will be useful to somebody I'll do it - just buy me a beer per item. PayPal preferred. There are two different boxed editions of C++ Set dev tools for OS/2, numbers 2.1 are in there somewhere. Don't have them in front of me or I'd provide details, but they both included media and some books. I can grab at least a half dozen shrink-wrapped boxes of Sytos Premium backup/recovery software for OS/2 by Arcada/Seagate ("Supports OS/2 Warp & Lan Server 4.0! Includes Graham Utilities Light!"). Have a genuine IBM box of "OS/2 Programming Tools & Information Version 1.2/1.3 Technical Upgrade 3.5'' Diskettes" with diskettes and manuals, mentions PM/2 and "C2, COBOL/2, FORTRAN/2 and Macro Assembler/2" bindings. Unboxed, I have the following developer bits in front of me: Collection 1: IBM Developer's Toolkit for OS/2 2.0 media kit on 3.5" floppy IBM C/C++ Tools/2 2.0 media kit on 3.5" floppy (these appear complete, but I cannot verify) - Dev Toolkit Getting Started guide - C/C++ Tools 2.0 Class Libraries Reference Summary - " " " UI Class Library User's Guide - " " " Programming Guide Collection 2: IBM Developer's Toolkit for OS/2 2.1 media kit on CD & 3.5" floppy still bagged IBM C/C++ FirstStep Tools 2.01 media kit on 3.5" floppy still bagged - Developer's Toolkit 2.1 Getting Started Guide - FirstStep Tools Programming Guide - " " " Debugger Introduction & Reference Summary If you're willing to cover shipping and a couple bucks for an item, let me know. First come, first served. I'll try shipping outside the US up until the paperwork becomes a pain, but will let you know and return funds if it falls through. For reference I'm in California, shipping from ZIP code 94596 or I can arrange to meet in the East (SF) Bay. --Steve. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 8 14:43:25 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 15:43:25 -0500 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <855811248C914AD2AF36935EEE2CCA9D@dell8300> References: <855811248C914AD2AF36935EEE2CCA9D@dell8300> Message-ID: On Jan 8, 2010, at 3:34 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: >>> How many people here do soldering (using lead solder) indoors >>> with no way of >>> getting the smoke out of the house? >> >> I've been doing it for well over 30 years and it hasn't killed me >> yet... >> >> -tony > > Yea, well for all we know you look like an ash colored zombie > stiffly walking into Radioshack with outstretched arms mumbling > "brains... err flux, rosin core solder, flux!" > > ;) ROFL! "BRAINS!!" > On a serious note, even lead poisining doesn't directly kill you > but it sure screws you up. Yeah I've been wondering about that for a while. I'm 40, been solding (a LOT) since I was about 7. I've inhaled lots of the vapors, handled lots of solder bare-handed, etc. I've heard rumors about people having trouble because of this but nothing confirmed. I sure wish my brain worked better; I have some serious complaints about it, but I don't know whether lead could be the source of the problem. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From classiccmp at crash.com Fri Jan 8 14:43:26 2010 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 12:43:26 -0800 Subject: Working Telebit Netblazer available Message-ID: <4B4798EE.1030203@crash.com> Buddy of mine in Western Massachusetts has a working Telebit Netblazer with (he believes) a complete set of manuals. He'd like to find it a new home rather than recycle it, free for cost of shipping from ZIP code 01012. He gave no guidance regarding international shipping, but /might/ be open to it. Contact me if interested, and I will provide your contact info to him on a first come, first served basis. Thanks, --Steve. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 8 15:13:37 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 21:13:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <855811248C914AD2AF36935EEE2CCA9D@dell8300> from "Teo Zenios" at Jan 8, 10 03:34:41 pm Message-ID: > > >> How many people here do soldering (using lead solder) indoors with no way > >> of > >> getting the smoke out of the house? > > > > I've been doing it for well over 30 years and it hasn't killed me yet... > > > > -tony > > Yea, well for all we know you look like an ash colored zombie stiffly > walking into Radioshack with outstretched arms mumbling "brains... err flux, > rosin core solder, flux!" Do you honestly think I would buy anything from RadioShack? > On a serious note, even lead poisining doesn't directly kill you but it sure > screws you up. Now that could explain a lot :-) -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 8 15:42:02 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 13:42:02 -0800 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: References: <855811248C914AD2AF36935EEE2CCA9D@dell8300> from "Teo Zenios" at Jan 8, 10 03:34:41 pm, Message-ID: <4B47362A.12643.DA7BC3@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Jan 2010 at 21:13, Tony Duell wrote in response to someone else: > > Yea, well for all we know you look like an ash colored zombie > > stiffly walking into Radioshack with outstretched arms mumbling > > "brains... err flux, rosin core solder, flux!" > > Do you honestly think I would buy anything from RadioShack? I save bits of rosin purchased for use on my double bass bow and dissolve them in denatured alcohol. The liquid flux works just fine when I need a bit extra (e.g. when tinning bare copper stranded wire). Waste not, want not. :) I suspect that any electronics-savvy gymnast might do the same with the powdered rosin used to improve one's grip, but to tell the truth, I've never known an electronics-savvy gymnast. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jan 8 16:41:34 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 15:41:34 -0700 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B47B49E.3020205@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: >> >>>> How many people here do soldering (using lead solder) indoors with no way >>>> of >>>> getting the smoke out of the house? >>> >>> I've been doing it for well over 30 years and it hasn't killed me yet... >>> >>> -tony >> >> Yea, well for all we know you look like an ash colored zombie stiffly >> walking into Radioshack with outstretched arms mumbling "brains... err flux, >> rosin core solder, flux!" > > Do you honestly think I would buy anything from RadioShack? Umm Do they sell anything other than solder and a bit of wire? > >> On a serious note, even lead poisining doesn't directly kill you but it sure >> screws you up. > > Now that could explain a lot :-) True. > -tony > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 8 16:48:27 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 17:48:27 -0500 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <4B47B49E.3020205@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4B47B49E.3020205@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Jan 8, 2010, at 5:41 PM, Ben wrote: >>>>> How many people here do soldering (using lead solder) indoors >>>>> with no way >>>>> of >>>>> getting the smoke out of the house? >>>> >>>> I've been doing it for well over 30 years and it hasn't killed >>>> me yet... >>>> >>>> -tony >>> >>> Yea, well for all we know you look like an ash colored zombie >>> stiffly >>> walking into Radioshack with outstretched arms mumbling >>> "brains... err flux, >>> rosin core solder, flux!" >> >> Do you honestly think I would buy anything from RadioShack? > > Umm Do they sell anything other than solder and a bit of wire? Now let's be fair. Radio Shack has considerably increased the number of electronic components that they carry in their stores in the past couple of years. Now you can get all the basic resistors and capacitors, as well as a fair assortment of transistors and ICs. And their connector assortment is pretty impressive. Let's give credit where credit is due. Due to exposure like Make magazine and such, electronic hobbyism seems to be on the rise, a welcome change after its massive decline over the past 10-15 years. Kudos to Radio Shack for recognizing this. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 8 17:14:03 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 15:14:03 -0800 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: References: , <4B47B49E.3020205@jetnet.ab.ca>, Message-ID: <4B474BBB.9492.12EB8C3@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Jan 2010 at 17:48, Dave McGuire wrote: > Now let's be fair. Radio Shack has considerably increased the > number of electronic components that they carry in their stores in > the past couple of years. Now you can get all the basic resistors > and capacitors, as well as a fair assortment of transistors and ICs. > And their connector assortment is pretty impressive. Perhaps in their web store and maybe in company-owned franchises, but "the Shack" outlet nearest me hasn't improved their selection very much over the last couple of years. The stock carried could well be the decision of the individual franchise owner. --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Jan 8 18:38:46 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 22:38:46 -0200 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) References: <4B47B49E.3020205@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <04ad01ca90c4$2b752e10$0101a8c0@Alexandre> > Due to exposure like Make magazine and such, electronic hobbyism > seems to be on the rise, a welcome change after its massive decline > over the past 10-15 years. Kudos to Radio Shack for recognizing this. Should I dream with Heathkit back? :o) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jan 8 18:50:37 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 17:50:37 -0700 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <04ad01ca90c4$2b752e10$0101a8c0@Alexandre> References: <4B47B49E.3020205@jetnet.ab.ca> <04ad01ca90c4$2b752e10$0101a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <4B47D2DD.9080702@jetnet.ab.ca> Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Due to exposure like Make magazine and such, electronic hobbyism >> seems to be on the rise, a welcome change after its massive decline >> over the past 10-15 years. Kudos to Radio Shack for recognizing this. > > Should I dream with Heathkit back? > > :o) > Only the plane kit! :) My wish was the Heath 11. Ben. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 8 18:46:39 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 19:46:39 -0500 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <04ad01ca90c4$2b752e10$0101a8c0@Alexandre> References: <4B47B49E.3020205@jetnet.ab.ca> <04ad01ca90c4$2b752e10$0101a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <452FCC7B-5FDE-4219-8CE1-2ADF8F3ED891@neurotica.com> On Jan 8, 2010, at 7:38 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Due to exposure like Make magazine and such, electronic >> hobbyism seems to be on the rise, a welcome change after its >> massive decline over the past 10-15 years. Kudos to Radio Shack >> for recognizing this. > > Should I dream with Heathkit back? > > :o) I think the suits will prevent that from happening, but there are lots of companies making kits now. Granted they're nowhere near on the grand scale of Heathkit, but perhaps that'll happen again in the future. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Fri Jan 8 19:00:07 2010 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 20:00:07 -0500 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <04ad01ca90c4$2b752e10$0101a8c0@Alexandre> References: <4B47B49E.3020205@jetnet.ab.ca> <04ad01ca90c4$2b752e10$0101a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <4affc5e1001081700i1cba8f18w48999b25d3061c24@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 19:38, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> ?Due to exposure like Make magazine and such, electronic hobbyism ?seems >> to be on the rise, a welcome change after its massive decline ?over the past >> 10-15 years. ?Kudos to Radio Shack for recognizing this. > > ? Should I dream with Heathkit back? > > ? :o) I think there are plenty of equivalents today. Sparkfun, Adafruit, Spare Time Gizmos, .... but just like Heathkit in its day was actually reasonably current technology, today's hobbyist is going to be programming FPGA's and ATmegas, and possibly baking SMT boards. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jan 8 19:27:27 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 18:27:27 -0700 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <4affc5e1001081700i1cba8f18w48999b25d3061c24@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B47B49E.3020205@jetnet.ab.ca> <04ad01ca90c4$2b752e10$0101a8c0@Alexandre> <4affc5e1001081700i1cba8f18w48999b25d3061c24@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B47DB7F.7070209@jetnet.ab.ca> Joachim Thiemann wrote: > I think there are plenty of equivalents today. Sparkfun, Adafruit, > Spare Time Gizmos, .... but just like Heathkit in its day was actually > reasonably current technology, today's hobbyist is going to be > programming FPGA's and ATmegas, and possibly baking SMT boards. Umm, My box with tubes and transformers came in today. You know what I will be doing tonight. I do plan to do modern stuff but I changing my mind on the digital stuff as I still have not found a Schematic/PCB program I can afford and I like. I have diptrace, but still need footprints for edge connectors and 84 pin PLCC socket. Once that is done, I hope to build a 24/12 bit computer (64K - 12 bit words) using one 128 cell CPLD's for control logic, 3 2901's and a 128 cell CPLD for glue registers. I plan to use a 6800 style clock, and run 24 bits through 2 passes of the 12 bit alu. This I hope will permit me say 6" x 6" cards on a motherboard with just XT connectors. Ben. From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Fri Jan 8 19:28:06 2010 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 20:28:06 -0500 Subject: Cleaning up: Apple II stuff (and some TRS-80 docs) to give away Message-ID: <4affc5e1001081728u6ddb872ci4f08d38371344633@mail.gmail.com> Ok, I've been sitting on this stuff for a while now, it was supposed to go to someone in upstate New York, but I haven't heard from him for a while. I need to get rid of it to make room, so if someone wants to take it, it's free to go. This stuff is in Montreal. Pictures in http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem/classiccmp/ First is a German Apple IIe, came with a family that immigrated to Canada in the 80's. Has a serial card, a Microsoft Softcard (CP/M and possibly 80-col), a printing buffer and floppy. Comes with 2 drives, bunch of original Apple floppies, documentation (including two books for the softcard) etc. Also I have an unlabeled II, probably a plus, likely a clone, built from kit it seems. All chips are labeled and socketed (see picture) - great care was taken to assemble this. With floppy card and two drives. Also troubleshooting documentation, and some original manuals for Ultima, Zork, and other games. Also comes with a green mono monitor - that also has documentation which includes schematics. The game connector is brought to the back to a DB-9, and there is a homebrew joystick for it (made from an R/C stick and two pushbutton switches in a hobby box). Finally there is an unknown board, obviously a Apple II clone, but has both a 6502 and Z80 on it. Strangely, no ROMs (except for char rom?) but I have a unpopulated ROM card that may belong to it. Some corrosion on the underside, it probably doesn't work anymore. Still all chips are socketed, would be a good place to pull from. (The other two are assumed to work, but haven't been switched on for many years.) I'd like to give all of this away as one big pile. There are also boxes of floppies and other miscellany. Too large to ship, but can fit into a car trunk easily. Unrelated - but also free to good home - some old TRS-80 docs: Series I Editor/Assembler, Level II Basic ref, Tiny Pascal User's manual, "Getting started with TRS-80 Basic", "TRS-80 Graphics", VTOS 3.0 Operator's guide, and a "cheat sheet" for Scripsit. Could conceivably be shipped. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Jan 8 19:46:11 2010 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 20:46:11 -0500 Subject: Cleaning up: Apple II stuff (and some TRS-80 docs) to give away Message-ID: Joachim writes: > Finally there is an unknown board, obviously a Apple II clone, but has > both a 6502 and Z80 on it. Strangely, no ROMs (except for char rom?) > but I have a unpopulated ROM card that may belong to it. Some > corrosion on the underside, it probably doesn't work anymore. Still > all chips are socketed, would be a good place to pull from. (The > other two are assumed to work, but haven't been switched on for many > years.) A Basis 108 maybe? It was a German clone. I think there was a very late (meaning mid-80's) Far-East clone that looked similar to the VTech Laser 128 but also had a Z80 in it. Funny, isn't it? Franklin clones the II, VTech clones the Franklin, and then somebody clones the VTech :-) Tim. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 8 22:57:18 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 23:57:18 -0500 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <4B478C1F.5090000@gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c381001031657q1e9845d4yaeea4c5047ef1837@mail.gmail.com>, <4B414626.3070703@comcast.net>, <20100108050900.GA40755@allie.home.misty.com> <4B465A35.23173.28E6506@cclist.sydex.com> <4B474A63.1040903@gmail.com> <6DCA65FF-CD2C-479D-9793-9A7F33FD5212@neurotica.com> <4B478C1F.5090000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A81F980-F16A-4DCB-8045-E87387A17347@neurotica.com> On Jan 8, 2010, at 2:48 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>>> How many people here do soldering (using lead solder) indoors >>>> with no >>>> way of getting the smoke out of the house? >>> >>> I do, but I wear a half-face respirator with cartridges designed for >>> lead and flux. >> >> And farts! (if that's the same respirator..) > > It is, indeed! It's good to know that it's versatile. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From trash80 at internode.on.net Fri Jan 8 23:46:48 2010 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2010 16:46:48 +1100 Subject: OS/2-related stuff, low-$ In-Reply-To: <4B479779.5000105@crash.com> References: <4B479779.5000105@crash.com> Message-ID: <007d01ca90ef$231877b0$69496710$@on.net> How do we contact you off list ++++++++++ KPA ++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Steven M Jones Sent: Saturday, 9 January 2010 7:37 AM To: classiccmp Talk Subject: OS/2-related stuff, low-$ At work we're clearing out half my floor to consolidate office space. What we don't set aside or spirit away by EOD today will be cleared out by some contractor next week. We've been told repeatedly that the stuff will be trashed, not salvaged, and they don't use open/untended dumpsters. We also have /assinine/ [sic] rules about removal of anything and everything from the office - I can't haul out plain boxes of stuff, but if it fits in a bag or backpack I can slowly remove it. It's enough of a pain that I'm asking for a couple bucks more than just S&H, but if it will be useful to somebody I'll do it - just buy me a beer per item. PayPal preferred. There are two different boxed editions of C++ Set dev tools for OS/2, numbers 2.1 are in there somewhere. Don't have them in front of me or I'd provide details, but they both included media and some books. I can grab at least a half dozen shrink-wrapped boxes of Sytos Premium backup/recovery software for OS/2 by Arcada/Seagate ("Supports OS/2 Warp & Lan Server 4.0! Includes Graham Utilities Light!"). Have a genuine IBM box of "OS/2 Programming Tools & Information Version 1.2/1.3 Technical Upgrade 3.5'' Diskettes" with diskettes and manuals, mentions PM/2 and "C2, COBOL/2, FORTRAN/2 and Macro Assembler/2" bindings. Unboxed, I have the following developer bits in front of me: Collection 1: IBM Developer's Toolkit for OS/2 2.0 media kit on 3.5" floppy IBM C/C++ Tools/2 2.0 media kit on 3.5" floppy (these appear complete, but I cannot verify) - Dev Toolkit Getting Started guide - C/C++ Tools 2.0 Class Libraries Reference Summary - " " " UI Class Library User's Guide - " " " Programming Guide Collection 2: IBM Developer's Toolkit for OS/2 2.1 media kit on CD & 3.5" floppy still bagged IBM C/C++ FirstStep Tools 2.01 media kit on 3.5" floppy still bagged - Developer's Toolkit 2.1 Getting Started Guide - FirstStep Tools Programming Guide - " " " Debugger Introduction & Reference Summary If you're willing to cover shipping and a couple bucks for an item, let me know. First come, first served. I'll try shipping outside the US up until the paperwork becomes a pain, but will let you know and return funds if it falls through. For reference I'm in California, shipping from ZIP code 94596 or I can arrange to meet in the East (SF) Bay. --Steve. From chrise at pobox.com Fri Jan 8 20:52:36 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 20:52:36 -0600 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100109025236.GE29564@n0jcf.net> On Friday (01/08/2010 at 07:11PM +0000), Tony Duell wrote: > > How many people here do soldering (using lead solder) indoors with no way of > > getting the smoke out of the house? > > I've been doing it for well over 30 years and it hasn't killed me yet... And 40 yrs here... and I still can't spell. oh-- and I also salvage chips from boards by heating the board with a propane torch and plucking them off with a vise-grips. You gotta love the smell of solder smoke in the morning man... -- Chris Elmquist From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Jan 9 02:13:38 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2010 00:13:38 -0800 Subject: Looking for Altair 680 monitor ROM image (or other simple 6800software) In-Reply-To: <4B440D7B.4030306@mail.msu.edu> References: <4B42E047.10102@mail.msu.edu> <4B43D48D.7C3BF290@cs.ubc.ca> <4B440D7B.4030306@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4B483AB2.2050109@mail.msu.edu> Josh Dersch wrote: > > Brent Hilpert wrote: >> You might try the SWTP monitor, a slight variation on the original >> Motorola >> MIKBUG monitor. >> >> The SWTP manual is here: >> >> http://www.opencores.org/websvn,filedetails?repname=System68&path=%2FSystem68%2Ftrunk%2FDoc%2FSWTBUG_Users_Guide.pdf >> >> >> The assembler code listing is in the back and appears to have been >> OCR'd, so it >> could be mangled into source >> form with a little effort. These monitors use a bit-bashed serial >> port on bit >> lines of a 6820 with an external bit timer read off an input bit on >> the 6820. >> Might be an annoyance to try to emulate but alternatively one could >> simply hook >> into the base-level character read/write routines. >> >> There might be more stuff at Michael Holley's SWTP site but I >> couldn't access >> it a few minutes ago: >> http://www.swtpc.com/ >> >> (I could send you my own monitor that I use with the 6800 but it's >> been awhile >> since I used it .. also wrote an asm, disasm and simulator a few >> years ago.) >> >> > > Cool. I couldn't get to swtpc.com last night either; it appears to be > back now, and it has a dump of MIKBUG as well as the 680b's PROM > monitor & 6800 ALTAIR BASIC, amongst other things... that should give > me something to start with. > > Thanks! > Josh > Thanks again for the recommendations; spent a few hours this evening implementing a very simple Altair 680b simulation (32k ram, monitor ROM, and a 6850 ACIA) and after fixing three or four silly bugs in my 6800 emulator I can now run MITS BASIC. Seems to be working ok. (I do get a few odd results from math operations -- 2^13 comes back as 8192.01, for example. Maybe it's just a BASIC bug :)) Having worked out a few kinks and increased my confidence in the sanity of my 6800 emulation, it's on to tackle the 4051... Josh From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jan 9 09:53:07 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2010 07:53:07 -0800 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <20100109025236.GE29564@n0jcf.net> References: , , <20100109025236.GE29564@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: Hi I still like peanut oil in a fry pan. It is a little more controlled than a torch. Dwight > Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 20:52:36 -0600 > From: chrise at pobox.com > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) > CC: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > On Friday (01/08/2010 at 07:11PM +0000), Tony Duell wrote: > > > How many people here do soldering (using lead solder) indoors with no way of > > > getting the smoke out of the house? > > > > I've been doing it for well over 30 years and it hasn't killed me yet... > > And 40 yrs here... and I still can't spell. > > oh-- and I also salvage chips from boards by heating the board with a > propane torch and plucking them off with a vise-grips. You gotta love > the smell of solder smoke in the morning man... > > -- > Chris Elmquist > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390708/direct/01/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jan 9 14:23:38 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2010 15:23:38 -0500 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <20100109025236.GE29564@n0jcf.net> References: <20100109025236.GE29564@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <920CF020-578D-42F9-AEF5-E715B00EAD9B@neurotica.com> On Jan 8, 2010, at 9:52 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: >>> How many people here do soldering (using lead solder) indoors >>> with no way of >>> getting the smoke out of the house? >> >> I've been doing it for well over 30 years and it hasn't killed me >> yet... > > And 40 yrs here... and I still can't spell. > > oh-- and I also salvage chips from boards by heating the board with a > propane torch and plucking them off with a vise-grips. You gotta love > the smell of solder smoke in the morning man... "Smells like......component recycling." -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 9 14:25:26 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2010 20:25:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <4B47362A.12643.DA7BC3@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 8, 10 01:42:02 pm Message-ID: > I save bits of rosin purchased for use on my double bass bow and > dissolve them in denatured alcohol. The liquid flux works just fine > when I need a bit extra (e.g. when tinning bare copper stranded > wire). > > Waste not, want not. :) > > I suspect that any electronics-savvy gymnast might do the same with > the powdered rosin used to improve one's grip, but to tell the truth, > I've never known an electronics-savvy gymnast. Well, I'm certainly not one. I am very much a 'high mass hobbyist', in both the snese that I collect high-mass machines and tbat I myself am high-mass. Athletic I am certainly not. But presumably anybody can buy the rosin intended for either of these uses and instrad use it as a soldering flux. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 9 14:28:58 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2010 20:28:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <4B47B49E.3020205@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben" at Jan 8, 10 03:41:34 pm Message-ID: > > Do you honestly think I would buy anything from RadioShack? > > Umm Do they sell anything other than solder and a bit of wire? I suppose the nearest equivalent we have over here (now all the Tandy shops have long gone) is Maplin, who have gone away from being an electronic component supplyer :-(. I don't buy much from them, although I was amazed to find they were one of the few places who stocked 38swg enammeled copper wire (In sensible-sized reels). . As I needed some [1] what's where I bought it from On the other hand the only solder they now sell is that lead-free stuff. I still prefer the lead-tin alloys. [1] Actually for a classic computer related purpose. Rewinding the motor in an old HP plotter. -tony From vern4wright at yahoo.com Sat Jan 9 15:44:38 2010 From: vern4wright at yahoo.com (Vernon Wright) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2010 13:44:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: OS/2-related stuff, low-$ In-Reply-To: <4B479779.5000105@crash.com> Message-ID: <733247.67456.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Steven, If it hasn't all gone to the dumpster yet, please drop me a note at vern4wright at yahoo.com I'd be particularly interested in the backup/recovery tools package. Possibly also dev tools. Regards, Vern Wright (down in San Diego, where there is NO ONE!) --- On Fri, 1/8/10, Steven M Jones wrote: > From: Steven M Jones > Subject: OS/2-related stuff, low-$ > To: "classiccmp Talk" > Date: Friday, January 8, 2010, 12:37 PM > At work we're clearing out half my > floor to consolidate office space. What we don't set aside > or spirit away by EOD today will be cleared out by some > contractor next week. > > We've been told repeatedly that the stuff will be trashed, > not salvaged, and they don't use open/untended dumpsters. We > also have /assinine/ [sic] rules about removal of anything > and everything from the office - I can't haul out plain > boxes of stuff, but if it fits in a bag or backpack I can > slowly remove it. It's enough of a pain that I'm asking for > a couple bucks more than just S&H, but if it will be > useful to somebody I'll do it - just buy me a beer per item. > PayPal preferred. > > There are two different boxed editions of C++ Set dev tools > for OS/2, numbers 2.1 are in there somewhere. Don't have > them in front of me or I'd provide details, but they both > included media and some books. > > I can grab at least a half dozen shrink-wrapped boxes of > Sytos Premium backup/recovery software for OS/2 by > Arcada/Seagate ("Supports OS/2 Warp & Lan Server 4.0! > Includes Graham Utilities Light!"). > > Have a genuine IBM box of "OS/2 Programming Tools & > Information Version 1.2/1.3 Technical Upgrade 3.5'' > Diskettes" with diskettes and manuals, mentions PM/2 and > "C2, COBOL/2, FORTRAN/2 and Macro Assembler/2" bindings. > > Unboxed, I have the following developer bits in front of > me: > > Collection 1: > IBM Developer's Toolkit for OS/2 2.0 media kit on 3.5" > floppy > IBM C/C++ Tools/2 2.0 media kit on 3.5" floppy > (these appear complete, but I cannot verify) > - Dev Toolkit Getting Started guide > - C/C++ Tools 2.0 Class Libraries Reference Summary > - "? "? " UI Class Library User's Guide > - "? "? " Programming Guide > > Collection 2: > IBM Developer's Toolkit for OS/2 2.1 media kit on CD & > 3.5" floppy still bagged > IBM C/C++ FirstStep Tools 2.01 media kit on 3.5" floppy > still bagged > - Developer's Toolkit 2.1 Getting Started Guide > - FirstStep Tools Programming Guide > - "? "? " Debugger Introduction & Reference > Summary > > > > If you're willing to cover shipping and a couple bucks for > an item, let me know. First come, first served. I'll try > shipping outside the US up until the paperwork becomes a > pain, but will let you know and return funds if it falls > through. For reference I'm in California, shipping from ZIP > code 94596 or I can arrange to meet in the East (SF) Bay. > > --Steve. > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Jan 9 20:06:28 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 02:06:28 +0000 Subject: Floppy drive track-0 issues Message-ID: <4B493624.5020600@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, I've got a Citizen Z1DE-55A (3.5" 1.44MB PC) floppy drive hooked up to the disc analyser (it seems my Sony MPF520 has a duff head; it's reading garbage for one side of the disc). Here's the problem... - When the drive is selected, irrespective of head position, TRK00 is always inactive. - If the drive is given a seek command, it will seek to track 0, assert TRK00, but the INDEX and READ DATA outputs will go idle (float high). - The drive remains stuck in this state until power-cycled. Has anyone seen this kind of thing before? The MPF520 had a head-step lockout (if track0_sensor == active, then ignore STEP commands) but didn't crash out if you asked it to step. For what it's worth, the drive works fine in my PC... I just can't see why it's locking up like this. Also, am I right in thinking that pins 12 (DS1) and 16 (MOTEN) are the two I need to pull low to select the drive, if it's connected before the twist in the cable? And that DS0 and DS2 would be the select and motor enable pins (respectively) if the drive was located after the twist? Citizen are, as always, their usual "helpful" selves: "We don't make floppy drives, we never made floppy drives. LA-LA-LA, NOT LISTENING!" Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From tpeters at mixcom.com Sat Jan 9 20:12:09 2010 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2010 20:12:09 -0600 Subject: Saw a Radio Shack printer-- got away Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20100109200908.0c1855b8@localhost> I saw a Radio Shack printer- typical black and silver/gray color scheme- at the WARAC swap today. Didn't get a close look at it due to sharp elbows in the vicinity. I think the guy was asking $20 for it. What I could see, looked like it was almost new condition. *WARAC: West Allis Radio Amateur's Club. Annual swap is 2nd Saturday in January at the Waukesha (WI) county expo center. ----- 124. [Philosophy] Reisner's Rule of Conceptual Inertia: If you think big enough, you'll never have to do it. --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixcom.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From rick at rickmurphy.net Sat Jan 9 21:47:27 2010 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2010 22:47:27 -0500 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: References: <4B47B49E.3020205@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <201001100347.o0A3lSdW016018@rickmurphy.net> At 05:48 PM 1/8/2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > Let's give credit where credit is due. > > Due to exposure like Make magazine and such, electronic hobbyism >seems to be on the rise, a welcome change after its massive decline >over the past 10-15 years. Kudos to Radio Shack for recognizing this. Make magazine has helped a great deal. To see the influence at work, particularly if you're a Doctor Who fan, look at http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/01/letters_we_get_letters_1.html and the link off of that to http://www.flickr.com/photos/piddlipoo/sets/72157622921889361/ which proves that the younger generation (younger than me, at least) is still interested in electronic hobbyism. Full disclosure: that's my daughter's project. And I didn't help her with the Dalek, that's all her work. -Rick From segin2005 at gmail.com Sat Jan 9 21:54:11 2010 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Kirn Gill) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2010 22:54:11 -0500 Subject: OS/2-related stuff, low-$ In-Reply-To: <4B479779.5000105@crash.com> References: <4B479779.5000105@crash.com> Message-ID: <4B494F63.8080301@gmail.com> On 1/8/2010 3:37 PM, Steven M Jones wrote: > At work we're clearing out half my floor to consolidate office space. > What we don't set aside or spirit away by EOD today will be cleared > out by some contractor next week. > > We've been told repeatedly that the stuff will be trashed, not > salvaged, and they don't use open/untended dumpsters. We also have > /assinine/ [sic] rules about removal of anything and everything from > the office - I can't haul out plain boxes of stuff, but if it fits in > a bag or backpack I can slowly remove it. It's enough of a pain that > I'm asking for a couple bucks more than just S&H, but if it will be > useful to somebody I'll do it - just buy me a beer per item. PayPal > preferred. > > There are two different boxed editions of C++ Set dev tools for OS/2, > numbers 2.1 are in there somewhere. Don't have them in front of me or > I'd provide details, but they both included media and some books. > > I can grab at least a half dozen shrink-wrapped boxes of Sytos Premium > backup/recovery software for OS/2 by Arcada/Seagate ("Supports OS/2 > Warp & Lan Server 4.0! Includes Graham Utilities Light!"). > > Have a genuine IBM box of "OS/2 Programming Tools & Information > Version 1.2/1.3 Technical Upgrade 3.5'' Diskettes" with diskettes and > manuals, mentions PM/2 and "C2, COBOL/2, FORTRAN/2 and Macro > Assembler/2" bindings. > > Unboxed, I have the following developer bits in front of me: > > Collection 1: > IBM Developer's Toolkit for OS/2 2.0 media kit on 3.5" floppy > IBM C/C++ Tools/2 2.0 media kit on 3.5" floppy > (these appear complete, but I cannot verify) > - Dev Toolkit Getting Started guide > - C/C++ Tools 2.0 Class Libraries Reference Summary > - " " " UI Class Library User's Guide > - " " " Programming Guide > > Collection 2: > IBM Developer's Toolkit for OS/2 2.1 media kit on CD & 3.5" floppy > still bagged > IBM C/C++ FirstStep Tools 2.01 media kit on 3.5" floppy still bagged > - Developer's Toolkit 2.1 Getting Started Guide > - FirstStep Tools Programming Guide > - " " " Debugger Introduction & Reference Summary > > > > If you're willing to cover shipping and a couple bucks for an item, > let me know. First come, first served. I'll try shipping outside the > US up until the paperwork becomes a pain, but will let you know and > return funds if it falls through. For reference I'm in California, > shipping from ZIP code 94596 or I can arrange to meet in the East (SF) > Bay. > > --Steve. How much would it cost to ship one of those kits to ... 33534? I might be interested in acquiring them, as eComStation makes OS/2 a current OS. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jan 9 21:58:03 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2010 20:58:03 -0700 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <201001100347.o0A3lSdW016018@rickmurphy.net> References: <4B47B49E.3020205@jetnet.ab.ca> <201001100347.o0A3lSdW016018@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <4B49504B.5040901@jetnet.ab.ca> Rick Murphy wrote: > Full disclosure: that's my daughter's project. And I didn't help her > with the Dalek, that's all her work. > -Rick What electronics? The classic Dalek has plywood,wheels,plummer's helper and a short guy inside. :-) Sigh! I guess the era of $50 props are long gone! Ben. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Jan 9 22:06:10 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 02:06:10 -0200 Subject: A very strange SIMM chip References: <4B47B49E.3020205@jetnet.ab.ca> <201001100347.o0A3lSdW016018@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <043901ca91ab$211463e0$0101a8c0@Alexandre> http://www.caetano.eng.br/crashcomputer/2010/01/state-of-art.html Very, VERY strange :oD From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 9 22:50:11 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2010 20:50:11 -0800 Subject: A very strange SIMM chip In-Reply-To: <043901ca91ab$211463e0$0101a8c0@Alexandre> References: , <043901ca91ab$211463e0$0101a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <4B48EC03.28327.2A3AF38@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Jan 2010 at 2:06, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > http://www.caetano.eng.br/crashcomputer/2010/01/state-of-art.html I've got a Panasonic laser printer memory card that uses the same SIPs. Apparently, the Japanese liked them. --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Jan 9 22:59:10 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 02:59:10 -0200 Subject: A very strange SIMM chip References: , <043901ca91ab$211463e0$0101a8c0@Alexandre> <4B48EC03.28327.2A3AF38@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <045501ca91b3$98c521b0$0101a8c0@Alexandre> >> http://www.caetano.eng.br/crashcomputer/2010/01/state-of-art.html > I've got a Panasonic laser printer memory card that uses the same > SIPs. Apparently, the Japanese liked them. That isn't hard to find something that uses SIPs. But 32 of them in a 72-pin SIMM module?! :oO From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Jan 9 23:31:55 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2010 21:31:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: PT210 serial board Message-ID: Is anyone here interested in connecting a TRS-80 PT-210 printing terminal to something through an rs232 serial port? I just put the finishing touches on a board layout I made by following the schematics in the service manual. The next step is to have a prototype made at batchpcb.com. Anyone interested in taking a look? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Jan 9 23:52:32 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 00:52:32 -0500 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) References: <4B47B49E.3020205@jetnet.ab.ca> <201001100347.o0A3lSdW016018@rickmurphy.net> <4B49504B.5040901@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2010 10:58 PM Subject: Re: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) > Rick Murphy wrote: > >> Full disclosure: that's my daughter's project. And I didn't help her >> with the Dalek, that's all her work. >> -Rick > > What electronics? The classic Dalek has plywood,wheels,plummer's helper > and a short guy inside. :-) > Sigh! I guess the era of $50 props are long gone! > Ben. I miss movies like The Thing where the special effects were real looking and non digital. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jan 9 23:58:33 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2010 21:58:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: References: <4B47B49E.3020205@jetnet.ab.ca> <201001100347.o0A3lSdW016018@rickmurphy.net> <4B49504B.5040901@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20100109215728.B32431@shell.lmi.net> > What electronics? The classic Dalek has plywood,wheels,plummer's helper > and a short guy inside. :-) > Sigh! I guess the era of $50 props are long gone! Electronics are getting cheaper. Plywood is getting more expensive (and they are shortchanging the dimensions) From g-wright at att.net Sun Jan 10 01:10:48 2010 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 07:10:48 +0000 Subject: AT&T system V 386 Software needed Message-ID: <011020100710.5608.4B497D7800000800000015E822230703729B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> Hi, Does anyone have a complete Package of AT&T SYS V UNIX for a the 386. I Have a AT&T 386/20 WGS computer that came with the software but when I looked closer, it does not have the boot disk (set up) or the license if it needs one. It has all of the rest of the floppies. I also have a few QIC tapes but with the same problem, no boot floppy. ESDI drive finally died so I need to start over. - Jerry From g-wright at att.net Sun Jan 10 01:40:39 2010 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 07:40:39 +0000 Subject: Hp 9000-310 computers need a new home. Message-ID: <011020100740.18494.4B4984760004EA470000483E22230703729B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> I just went through my stack of HP computers and I have too many 9000-310's These are 68010 processors with 1 meg of ram and RGB bit mapped video. No keyboard or HPIB drive. (external) All are in good condition and have just been booted. Some are missing the rear cover plates for memory. These use a standard HP HIL keyboard. Price is free, But local pickup only. I also have at least 1 desk side cabinet for these or the 7937 disk drives Located South of Seattle, WA. - Jerry From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 10 02:57:01 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 00:57:01 -0800 Subject: A very strange SIMM chip In-Reply-To: <045501ca91b3$98c521b0$0101a8c0@Alexandre> References: , <045501ca91b3$98c521b0$0101a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <4B4925DD.17652.385A71E@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Jan 2010 at 2:59, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > That isn't hard to find something that uses SIPs. But 32 of them > in a 72-pin SIMM module?! :oO Makes sense to me. Keeps things simple--one SIP per bit--although it does make for a thick package. --Chuck From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Jan 10 03:07:14 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 01:07:14 -0800 Subject: Hp 9000-310 computers need a new home. In-Reply-To: <011020100740.18494.4B4984760004EA470000483E22230703729B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: Tempting.... On 1/9/10 11:40 PM, "g-wright at att.net" wrote: > I just went through my stack of HP computers and I have > too many 9000-310's > These are 68010 processors with 1 meg of ram and RGB > bit mapped video. No keyboard or HPIB drive. (external) All > are in good condition and have just been booted. Some are > missing the rear cover plates for memory. These use a standard > HP HIL keyboard. > > Price is free, But local pickup only. I also have at least 1 desk > side cabinet for these or the 7937 disk drives > > Located South of Seattle, WA. > > - Jerry > > > From tingox at gmail.com Sat Jan 9 13:59:44 2010 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2010 20:59:44 +0100 Subject: emulating an Apple II+ in an FPGA In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381001060728o5777d335n5dba54611ea5c14@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c381001060728o5777d335n5dba54611ea5c14@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 4:28 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > I noticed that there's an article in the december circuit cellar that > talks about emulating an Apple II+ in an FPGA. It was an interesting > article, although I only understood about 20% of it. As a software > guy though, the hardware "code" has me interested. Maybe this would > be an easier and less time-consuming way for me to learn about > hardware. > Go for it: http://www1.cs.columbia.edu/~sedwards/apple2fpga/ http://alexfreed.com/FPGApple/ http://alexfreed.com/FPGApple/revisited.html http://www.applelogic.org/ -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun Jan 10 04:28:35 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 11:28:35 +0100 Subject: Hp 9000-310 computers need a new home. In-Reply-To: <011020100740.18494.4B4984760004EA470000483E22230703729B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> References: <011020100740.18494.4B4984760004EA470000483E22230703729B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: <7D5B5390AC0F4924A573F4B78C1614AE@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens g-wright at att.net > Verzonden: zondag 10 januari 2010 8:41 > Aan: cc_talk > Onderwerp: Hp 9000-310 computers need a new home. > > I just went through my stack of HP computers and I have too > many 9000-310's These are 68010 processors with 1 meg of ram > and RGB bit mapped video. No keyboard or HPIB drive. > (external) All are in good condition and have just been > booted. Some are missing the rear cover plates for memory. > These use a standard HP HIL keyboard. > > Price is free, But local pickup only. I also have at least 1 > desk side cabinet for these or the 7937 disk drives > > Located South of Seattle, WA. > > - Jerry > > Sniff,sniff,......... Bloody water ;-) From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Jan 10 07:15:07 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 14:15:07 +0100 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <4B474994.8000809@gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c381001031657q1e9845d4yaeea4c5047ef1837@mail.gmail.com> <4B414626.3070703@comcast.net> <20100108050900.GA40755@allie.home.misty.com> <4B465A35.23173.28E6506@cclist.sydex.com> <4B474994.8000809@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100110141507.13e7b6fd.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 08 Jan 2010 10:04:52 -0500 Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > The flux is quite toxic also. And the flux needed for lead-free solder even more. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 10 07:05:57 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 13:05:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Floppy drive track-0 issues In-Reply-To: <4B493624.5020600@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jan 10, 10 02:06:28 am Message-ID: > > Hi guys, > > I've got a Citizen Z1DE-55A (3.5" 1.44MB PC) floppy drive hooked up to > the disc analyser (it seems my Sony MPF520 has a duff head; it's reading > garbage for one side of the disc). Here's the problem... It may not be the head, but it shouldn't he hard to check... Firstly, clean the heads -- not with a cleaning disk (no matter what the manuals may say), but with a cotton bud and propan-2-ol. I once spent an afternoon chasing a non-existant fault on the analogue board of a CBM 2850LP that turned out to be drity heads. Secondly, most dosk heads have 4 connections -- if there are actually 5 wires on the connector, then the last is most likely a screen (do any of the pins on the drive pCB connector test as grounds? If so, it's almost certainly a screen). The 4 connections are the 3 wires of a centre-tapped reand/write winding and one end of the tunnel erase head, the other side of that goes ot the centre tap. Just occasionally you come acrooss other arrangements. One is to have the erase head totally flating wrt the read-write head, so 5 wires. Another is to include some or all of the switching diodes in the head assembly. Look for SOT23 pacakges on the flexiprint to the heads. Sony once made a double-sided head assembly with 6 wires and with the all the switching diodes on the flexiprint, but they went away from tlat on more modern drives. You cna test the head windings for continmuity quite easily. If you're worried you may have magnetised the head by so doing, you can demagnetise it using a tape head demagnetiser. The head windings are low-resistance and will essentially show as a short-circuit between all 4 head connections. If the head checks out, trace form the head connector on the PCB to switching diodes, often doube diode units in SOT23 packages. Check them, replace if necessary. The centre tap pin most likely foes to a transistor, part of the head swtiching circuit, I've had that fail before now. Again, easy to check and replace. That Sony model number sounds somewhat familiar to me. Is it a normal-size (half-height, techniclly 3.5" unit with a logic board iwth 2 large PQFPs on it (one for the analouge circuitry and one for the digital circuitry)? And a positiion at the rear right corner of the main chassis that could be used to mount an eject motor unit, like a Mac drive? If so, grab the HP9114B (must be B) diagrams from http://www.hpmuseum.net, IIRC that uses a similar drive. > - When the drive is selected, irrespective of head position, TRK00 is > always inactive. > - If the drive is given a seek command, it will seek to track 0, assert Those 2 seem inconsistent. The first says that TRK00 is never asserted, the latter gices a time when it is. Which is it? > TRK00, but the INDEX and READ DATA outputs will go idle (float high). > - The drive remains stuck in this state until power-cycled. > > Has anyone seen this kind of thing before? The MPF520 had a head-step > lockout (if track0_sensor == active, then ignore STEP commands) but > didn't crash out if you asked it to step. I've seen floppy drives that do odd things if, for example, one of the input signals is asserted on power-up. But never this. I assume the control logic is one ASIC :-(, so you can't investigate it. What signals are you asserting when you try the seek? You don't have write-gate asserted or anything silly, do you? Silly suggestion. Connect it to your PC and do some seeks. Use a logic analyser to see what the signals to the drive are doing. Then see how the signals from your excersiser differ. > > For what it's worth, the drive works fine in my PC... I just can't see > why it's locking up like this. > > Also, am I right in thinking that pins 12 (DS1) and 16 (MOTEN) are the > two I need to pull low to select the drive, if it's connected before the > twist in the cable? And that DS0 and DS2 would be the select and motor > enable pins (respectively) if the drive was located after the twist? Yes, that sounds right. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 10 08:02:22 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 14:02:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <20100110141507.13e7b6fd.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Jan 10, 10 02:15:07 pm Message-ID: > > The flux is quite toxic also. > And the flux needed for lead-free solder even more. So, considering that the smoke that comes off when I solder is mostly flux, I guess I am safer sticking to the old leaded solder. -tony From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Jan 10 09:06:27 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 15:06:27 +0000 Subject: Floppy drive track-0 issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B49ECF3.9020100@philpem.me.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > Firstly, clean the heads -- not with a cleaning disk (no matter what the > manuals may say), but with a cotton bud and propan-2-ol. I once spent an > afternoon chasing a non-existant fault on the analogue board of a CBM > 2850LP that turned out to be drity heads. I'll strip it again and have another go. But I wouldn't be at all surprised if the upper head has been wrecked -- the loading mechanism jammed a while ago. I stripped it, re-lubricated the sliders and reassembled it, but caught the top head when I was putting the top plate (with the pin that opens the disc shutter) back in. The head that's having issues appears to be "side 0" if that means anything (my copy of the ECMA 3.5in floppy standards is "missing" ATM, and I can't remember if that's the upper or lower head). TBH, the timing histogram from the Sony drive's upper head looks like noise. The timing histogram from the same disc in the Citizen drive (see below) or a Samsung SFD-321 looks like the normal MFM "three peaks" histogram. What I'm seeing is ~81.5ksamples acquired on the "OK" head, and ~67ksamples acquired on the "bad" head, typically with larger gaps in timing on the latter. It's as if the drive is missing transitions, or just spitting out noise. Hook up the Citizen drive, and it reads ~82ksamples of timing data for any track. > Just occasionally you come acrooss other arrangements. One is to have the > erase head totally flating wrt the read-write head, so 5 wires. Another > is to include some or all of the switching diodes in the head assembly. > Look for SOT23 pacakges on the flexiprint to the heads. Sony once made a > double-sided head assembly with 6 wires and with the all the switching > diodes on the flexiprint, but they went away from tlat on more modern drives. This one has two flexiprint cables with five pins each. No components on the flexi unless they're hidden inside the plastic body of the head mountings. > That Sony model number sounds somewhat familiar to me. Is it a normal-size > (half-height, techniclly 3.5" unit with a logic board iwth 2 large PQFPs > on it (one for the analouge circuitry and one for the digital circuitry)? It's 1-in high, with an 80-pin QFP labelled "SONY / CXA1803Q / JAPAN / 429A94K", a 32-pin TSSOP labelled "BA6489FS / 435 148" and a 20-pin SOIC labelled "NEC JAPAN / D16803 / 9423F7" on the logic board. From the label on top of the drive: 9409 E/A30 SONY(R) 5V== [//] MODEL MPF520-E 10292485 SMM Made in Malaysia 4-627-742-61 [9U] [CSA] [TUV] ([9U] is the UL Recognised Component mark, [CSA] is the CSA approvals logo, and TUV is the TUV triangle logo) On the second label: [hp] HEWLETT PACKARD 1.44MB Flexible Disk Drive PART NUMBER: D2035-60031 Made to Hewlett-Packard Standards 5V-0.89A SONY MPF520 ("[hp]" is the bracketed HP logo) > And a positiion at the rear right corner of the main chassis that could be > used to mount an eject motor unit, like a Mac drive? Centre front is more like it. There's a hole in the main chassis that leads to a serrated bar that moves when the eject button is pressed. There are a couple of holes that could (theoretically) be used to attach an eject motor, but they don't appear to have been tapped. >> - When the drive is selected, irrespective of head position, TRK00 is >> always inactive. >> - If the drive is given a seek command, it will seek to track 0, assert > > Those 2 seem inconsistent. The first says that TRK00 is never asserted, > the latter gices a time when it is. Which is it? It turned out to be a logic bug in the FPGA -- the nSTEP output wasn't being set high/inactive when the seek had completed (though it was being set high to produce the pulses during the seek). In other words, it looked like this: __ __ __ STEP ___| |__| |__| |____________ When I wanted this: __ __ ____________ STEP ...___| |__| |__| Added the missing assignment and now it works fine. Interesting that the Sony drive didn't care about this, yet the Citizen apparently locked up. In any case it's fixed now and both the Sony MPF520 and Citizen Z1DE-55A seem happy. The exact failure mode seems to be: - If nSTEP is low on startup, the drive will work fine until the next step operation. - If a STEP operation leaves nSTEP low (active) then the drive will leave most of the control outputs in their inactive states. > I've seen floppy drives that do odd things if, for example, one of the > input signals is asserted on power-up. But never this. I assume the > control logic is one ASIC :-(, so you can't investigate it. Probably. The PCB is covered by a metal plate which looks like it'll be very difficult to remove. It doesn't even look like the drive can be jumpered for DS0, unless it's done with SMD zero-ohm links under the metal shield. > What signals are you asserting when you try the seek? You don't have > write-gate asserted or anything silly, do you? No, WRGATE and WRDATA are locked high in the FPGA logic (for "data security" reasons... and because I haven't ported the disc write logic across yet). Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From marvin at west.net Sun Jan 10 10:26:45 2010 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 08:26:45 -0800 Subject: Vintage Ads Database Message-ID: <4B49FFC5.8050300@west.net> I was reading Seth Godins blog, and he gave a link to a great vintage Ads database! http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/ From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 10 10:53:32 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 16:53:32 -0000 Subject: Apple LC2 Message-ID: <000e01ca9215$72ba9740$582fc5c0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> A friend of mine has one of these. I know nothing about them. Just wondering if this is likely to have some financial value. I know it depends on what buyers are prepared to pay and all that, but just wondering as I could not find any on ebay, so is it unusual or just uninteresting? Thanks Rob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 10 10:56:08 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 16:56:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Floppy drive track-0 issues In-Reply-To: <4B49ECF3.9020100@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jan 10, 10 03:06:27 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > Firstly, clean the heads -- not with a cleaning disk (no matter what the > > manuals may say), but with a cotton bud and propan-2-ol. I once spent an > > afternoon chasing a non-existant fault on the analogue board of a CBM > > 2850LP that turned out to be drity heads. > > I'll strip it again and have another go. But I wouldn't be at all > surprised if the upper head has been wrecked -- the loading mechanism > jammed a while ago. I stripped it, re-lubricated the sliders and > reassembled it, but caught the top head when I was putting the top plate > (with the pin that opens the disc shutter) back in. As an aside, this is a major problem on the full-height Sony 3.5" drives. They were originally lubricated with a grease that turns hard and sticky with age. The result is that the eject mechansim doesn't lock in the 'up' posiiton properly. When you try to eject a disk, the upper head will catch in the slot of the disk itself and will be ripped off the gimbal spring. This drive was used in a lot of HP devices, if anyone has ole HP 3.5" stuff and hasn't cleaned off the grease, do so _now_ before you haveto ifind a new head assembly and align it! > > The head that's having issues appears to be "side 0" if that means > anything (my copy of the ECMA 3.5in floppy standards is "missing" ATM, > and I can't remember if that's the upper or lower head). The upper head -- the one that points down -- is side 1. Side 0 is the underside of the disk. The way to rememebr that is that the single-head drive has the lower head only with a preasure pad on the moveable part of the arm. And yes, single-head 3.5" drives do exist (as for that matter to 40 cylinder ones -- 67.5 tpi)/ > > TBH, the timing histogram from the Sony drive's upper head looks like Do you mean 'upper head' or 'side 0 head' here? > noise. The timing histogram from the same disc in the Citizen drive (see An open-circuit head will produce noise, as will anything that causes it not to be connected to the read amplifier. > This one has two flexiprint cables with five pins each. No components on > the flexi unless they're hidden inside the plastic body of the head > mountings. That;s normal for later drives. The switching components are on the PCB. > > > That Sony model number sounds somewhat familiar to me. Is it a normal-size > > (half-height, techniclly 3.5" unit with a logic board iwth 2 large PQFPs > > on it (one for the analouge circuitry and one for the digital circuitry)? > > It's 1-in high, with an 80-pin QFP labelled "SONY / CXA1803Q / JAPAN / > 429A94K", a 32-pin TSSOP labelled "BA6489FS / 435 148" and a 20-pin SOIC > labelled "NEC JAPAN / D16803 / 9423F7" on the logic board. That, alas, is nothing like the drive I am thinking of. Mind you, the drive I was thinking of is a 720K one (actually the version I know is a 80- cylinder, double hard _600 rpm_ unit, but it came in all sorts of versions. I would still be incined to trace back from the head connectors. If they go straight to one of the chips, you may well have big problems, but if there are any discrete components involved, it's worth checking them. > > Those 2 seem inconsistent. The first says that TRK00 is never asserted, > > the latter gices a time when it is. Which is it? > > It turned out to be a logic bug in the FPGA -- the nSTEP output wasn't > being set high/inactive when the seek had completed (though it was being > set high to produce the pulses during the seek). In other words, it > looked like this: > __ __ __ > STEP ___| |__| |__| |____________ > > When I wanted this: > __ __ ____________ > STEP ...___| |__| |__| > > Added the missing assignment and now it works fine. Interesting that the > Sony drive didn't care about this, yet the Citizen apparently locked up. Without knowing a lot more about the internals of the drive I can't begin to guess what is going on :-) -tony From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jan 10 11:00:49 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 09:00:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple LC2 In-Reply-To: <000e01ca9215$72ba9740$582fc5c0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> from Rob Jarratt at "Jan 10, 10 04:53:32 pm" Message-ID: <201001101700.o0AH0nJ8010542@floodgap.com> > A friend of mine has one of these. I know nothing about them. Just wondering > if this is likely to have some financial value. I know it depends on what > buyers are prepared to pay and all that, but just wondering as I could not > find any on ebay, so is it unusual or just uninteresting? Not to burst any balloons, but LC IIs are not particularly interesting Macs nor particularly rare. Some people like them for their form factor, but I wouldn't expect it to fetch more than a few dollars unless it has a lot of options installed. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- All science is either physics or stamp collecting. -- Ernest Rutherford ---- From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Jan 10 11:20:43 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 17:20:43 +0000 Subject: Floppy drive track-0 issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B4A0C6B.7080608@philpem.me.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > As an aside, this is a major problem on the full-height Sony 3.5" drives. > They were originally lubricated with a grease that turns hard and sticky > with age. The result is that the eject mechansim doesn't lock in the 'up' > posiiton properly. When you try to eject a disk, the upper head will > catch in the slot of the disk itself and will be ripped off the gimbal > spring. This drive was used in a lot of HP devices, if anyone has ole HP > 3.5" stuff and hasn't cleaned off the grease, do so _now_ before you > haveto ifind a new head assembly and align it! Sounds similar to what happened with this one -- I had to extract the disc by opening the drive up and manually forcing the eject mechanism to work. Unfortunately I pushed the slider too far and knocked the top tray off the mounting. When I put it back in, I suspect I hit the top head and either broke it or knocked it out of alignment. >> TBH, the timing histogram from the Sony drive's upper head looks like > > Do you mean 'upper head' or 'side 0 head' here? Side 1 head. Upper head. Side 0/lower reads OK, side 1/upper reads as garbage. > An open-circuit head will produce noise, as will anything that causes it > not to be connected to the read amplifier. What's odd is that there seems to be some data there -- one or two sector headers occasionally decode OK, so maybe the head is just out of alignment. > That, alas, is nothing like the drive I am thinking of. Mind you, the > drive I was thinking of is a 720K one (actually the version I know is a > 80- cylinder, double hard _600 rpm_ unit, but it came in all sorts of > versions. That sounds like the drive in my HP 1651B logic analyser... The drive in the 16500B appears to be a fairly standard laptop-style (i.e. thin) 300RPM 1.4MB drive, though. > I would still be incined to trace back from the head connectors. If they > go straight to one of the chips, you may well have big problems, but if > there are any discrete components involved, it's worth checking them. To be honest I'm not overly concerned about fixing the MPF520. It's a fairly nice drive in that it has physical jumpers for DS0/DS1 and density selection (AUTO or PIN-2), but I have Panasonic and Citizen drives that (at the very least) have the DS0/DS1 switch. The drive I'm using now (the Z1DE-55A) doesn't have the jumpers, but it does have a rather fetching black front panel and a green ACTIVE LED... which I'm very tempted to replace with a blue LED... :) > Without knowing a lot more about the internals of the drive I can't begin > to guess what is going on :-) :-) My best guess is that the LSI contains a flip-flop that's cleared when STEP transitions H->L, and cleared when it transitions L->H. The FF output is then used as an enable signal for the RD_DATA and INDEX drivers. As I've said before: "It works now, or at least seems to." -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 10 12:51:55 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 18:51:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Floppy drive track-0 issues In-Reply-To: <4B4A0C6B.7080608@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jan 10, 10 05:20:43 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > As an aside, this is a major problem on the full-height Sony 3.5" drives. > > They were originally lubricated with a grease that turns hard and sticky > > with age. The result is that the eject mechansim doesn't lock in the 'up' > > posiiton properly. When you try to eject a disk, the upper head will > > catch in the slot of the disk itself and will be ripped off the gimbal > > spring. This drive was used in a lot of HP devices, if anyone has ole HP > > 3.5" stuff and hasn't cleaned off the grease, do so _now_ before you > > haveto ifind a new head assembly and align it! > > Sounds similar to what happened with this one -- I had to extract the > disc by opening the drive up and manually forcing the eject mechanism to Ah no. In the full height one, the eject mechanism will normally still move if you press the button, but the latching pawl dowsn't drop into place. So the disk holder -- and upper head -- go down again when you release the button. if the disk is partially ejected when this happens, it's almost certain the top head will be ripped off the gimbal. There are some photss in my filckr account (tony_duell) of this drive in bits. > work. Unfortunately I pushed the slider too far and knocked the top tray > off the mounting. When I put it back in, I suspect I hit the top head > and either broke it or knocked it out of alignment. Does the gimbal spring (the spring leaf that uspports the upper head) look bent or distorted? It is quite delicate, although often bending it back so it looks flat will get the drie working again. > > >> TBH, the timing histogram from the Sony drive's upper head looks like > > > > Do you mean 'upper head' or 'side 0 head' here? > > Side 1 head. Upper head. Side 0/lower reads OK, side 1/upper reads as > garbage. > > > An open-circuit head will produce noise, as will anything that causes it > > not to be connected to the read amplifier. > > What's odd is that there seems to be some data there -- one or two > sector headers occasionally decode OK, so maybe the head is just out of > alignment. Maybe. Problem is I've yet to see a floppy drive where the 2 heads can be separately aligned in the field. Normally you set up one of them, then check the other, and if it';s out, you get to replace the head carriage assembly. I wonder what happens if one hald of the centre-tapped read/write winding is open or the associated swtiching diode has failed? Maybe you get a signal with lots of noise (pickup from the floating side) and it'll work sometimes. If it were my drive, I'd check the head for continuity, check the switching diodes, then try a format and read on a blank disk. If that works, it's pretty much sure ot be an alignmnet problem. > > > That, alas, is nothing like the drive I am thinking of. Mind you, the > > drive I was thinking of is a 720K one (actually the version I know is a > > 80- cylinder, double hard _600 rpm_ unit, but it came in all sorts of > > versions. > > That sounds like the drive in my HP 1651B logic analyser... Very likely. HP used this drive in many devices (and the older full-height 600 rpm units, both single and double sided , in rather more devices). -tony From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jan 10 13:02:24 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 11:02:24 -0800 Subject: Floppy drive track-0 issues In-Reply-To: <4B4A0C6B.7080608@philpem.me.uk> References: ,<4B4A0C6B.7080608@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: ---snip--- > > My best guess is that the LSI contains a flip-flop that's cleared when > STEP transitions H->L, and cleared when it transitions L->H. The FF > output is then used as an enable signal for the RD_DATA and INDEX drivers. > > As I've said before: "It works now, or at least seems to." > Hi This is normal behavour for the newer drives that don't have a DskRdy signal. The way they indicate not ready is to turn off both the data and the index signals. I think this works from seeing the disk spin but I don't recall exactly how this works. I've cross wired the index to the dskrdy for some of the older machines and that seems to work but you do need to check to see if it uses active or passive loading. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390707/direct/01/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Jan 10 14:12:46 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 14:12:46 -0600 Subject: Apple LC2 In-Reply-To: <000e01ca9215$72ba9740$582fc5c0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <000e01ca9215$72ba9740$582fc5c0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4B4A34BE.8000100@oldskool.org> On 1/10/2010 10:53 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > A friend of mine has one of these. I know nothing about them. Just wondering > if this is likely to have some financial value. I know it depends on what > buyers are prepared to pay and all that, but just wondering as I could not > find any on ebay, so is it unusual or just uninteresting? I couldn't give mine away, even with me paying for shipping, if that's any indication. One of the few items in my collection I have outright discarded. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jan 10 15:57:15 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 13:57:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Floppy drive track-0 issues In-Reply-To: <4B49ECF3.9020100@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B49ECF3.9020100@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20100110135440.T68249@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 10 Jan 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: > I'll strip it again and have another go. But I wouldn't be at all > surprised if the upper head has been wrecked -- the loading mechanism > jammed a while ago. I stripped it, re-lubricated the sliders and > reassembled it, but caught the top head when I was putting the top plate > (with the pin that opens the disc shutter) back in. > The head that's having issues appears to be "side 0" if that means > anything (my copy of the ECMA 3.5in floppy standards is "missing" ATM, > and I can't remember if that's the upper or lower head). Unless you install it on edge or upside down, the lower head is #0, and the upper head is #1 (or #1/#2, A/B, front/back, . . . ) From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Jan 10 16:21:55 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 17:21:55 -0500 Subject: Apple LC2 References: <000e01ca9215$72ba9740$582fc5c0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> <4B4A34BE.8000100@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <8D47CD77893947C0BCA5F114D0E63CC2@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Leonard" To: ; "Discussion at mail.mobygames.com :On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 3:12 PM Subject: Re: Apple LC2 > On 1/10/2010 10:53 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> A friend of mine has one of these. I know nothing about them. Just >> wondering >> if this is likely to have some financial value. I know it depends on what >> buyers are prepared to pay and all that, but just wondering as I could >> not >> find any on ebay, so is it unusual or just uninteresting? > > I couldn't give mine away, even with me paying for shipping, if that's any > indication. One of the few items in my collection I have outright > discarded. > -- LC3 are a bit more popular. About the only thing saving in a LC 1, LC 2 is the auto inject floppy drives if they work. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jan 10 16:38:39 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 20:38:39 -0200 Subject: Apple LC2 References: <000e01ca9215$72ba9740$582fc5c0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> <4B4A34BE.8000100@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <073d01ca9245$b11543c0$0101a8c0@Alexandre> > I couldn't give mine away, even with me paying for shipping, if that's any > indication. One of the few items in my collection I have outright > discarded. Feel free to send me, even better if you have the //e emulation board :) :) :) From billdeg at degnanco.com Sun Jan 10 16:52:33 2010 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 17:52:33 -0500 Subject: FIDONET Node List 1986 #164 (June 13 1986) Message-ID: <5213afdf$73da72fb$3315e626$@com> I found an old FIDONET nodelist from June 13 1986 in my files today. This list is missing from any online archives I could locate, but I assume that there *must* be a comprehensive list from the 1980's, right? I have uploaded the nodelist here: http://www.vintagecomputer.net/fidonet/ 1986 #164 Here is the best archive I could find in a brief search of the web: http://ambrosia60.dnsalias.net/fidonet/nodelist.php Does anyone have any nodelists they'd like to share? If so send to me and I will post on my site. It's a shame that there is not more of a comprehensive nodelist archive. Bill From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jan 10 16:58:05 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 20:58:05 -0200 Subject: Floppy drive track-0 issues References: Message-ID: <076a01ca9248$86254310$0101a8c0@Alexandre> > The upper head -- the one that points down -- is side 1. Side 0 is the > underside of the disk. The way to rememebr that is that the single-head > drive has the lower head only with a preasure pad on the moveable part of > the arm. And yes, single-head 3.5" drives do exist (as for that matter to > 40 cylinder ones -- 67.5 tpi)/ They are very common on european MSX machines. And most of them has drive belts! :oO From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jan 10 17:08:03 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 15:08:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Floppy drive track-0 issues In-Reply-To: <076a01ca9248$86254310$0101a8c0@Alexandre> References: <076a01ca9248$86254310$0101a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <20100110150435.R69765@shell.lmi.net> > the arm. And yes, single-head 3.5" drives do exist (as for that matter to > 40 cylinder ones -- 67.5 tpi)/ The Shugart SA300 single head 3.5" drive was ued in the Gavilan, with a custom bezel. The SA350 DS 3.5" drive could use that bezel and there was eventually DS support (GAVILAN MS-DOS 2.11 K?) Which SS 3.5" drives were out before that? The only 67.5 TPI drive that I have is an Epson. Who else made them? From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jan 10 17:25:33 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 15:25:33 -0800 Subject: Floppy drive track-0 issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B4A61ED.6020904@bitsavers.org> On 1/10/10 8:56 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > As an aside, this is a major problem on the full-height Sony 3.5" drives. Do you have the service manual? I was just about to upload it since it is part of the Apricot service manual. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jan 10 17:29:02 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 15:29:02 -0800 Subject: Floppy drive track-0 issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B4A62BE.7030509@bitsavers.org> On 1/10/10 5:05 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > Firstly, clean the heads -- not with a cleaning disk (no matter what the > manuals may say), but with a cotton bud and propan-2-ol. Be EXTREMELY careful doing this. At least on 800k Mac floppies it it very easy to bend the flexure on the upper head so that it no longer has enough downward pressure to make contact with the disk. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 10 17:35:24 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 15:35:24 -0800 Subject: Floppy drive track-0 issues In-Reply-To: <20100110150435.R69765@shell.lmi.net> References: , <076a01ca9248$86254310$0101a8c0@Alexandre>, <20100110150435.R69765@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B49F3BC.22427.1B41053@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Jan 2010 at 15:08, Fred Cisin wrote: > The only 67.5 TPI drive that I have is an Epson. Who else made them? Sony had at least one half-height single-sided 600 RPM 40 cylinder drive. I used to have a few (0AD or something like that). 26 pin connector on the rear. I think they were used on the Preis CP/M box. --Chuck From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Jan 10 18:39:14 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 19:39:14 -0500 Subject: Apple LC2 In-Reply-To: <201001101700.o0AH0nJ8010542@floodgap.com> References: <201001101700.o0AH0nJ8010542@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4B4A7332.7040402@atarimuseum.com> I'd love to find one if its got the Apple //e board in it. Curt Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> A friend of mine has one of these. I know nothing about them. Just wondering >> if this is likely to have some financial value. I know it depends on what >> buyers are prepared to pay and all that, but just wondering as I could not >> find any on ebay, so is it unusual or just uninteresting? >> > > Not to burst any balloons, but LC IIs are not particularly interesting > Macs nor particularly rare. Some people like them for their form factor, > but I wouldn't expect it to fetch more than a few dollars unless it has > a lot of options installed. > > From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jan 10 18:57:12 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 16:57:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple LC2 In-Reply-To: <4B4A7332.7040402@atarimuseum.com> from "Curt @ Atari Museum" at "Jan 10, 10 07:39:14 pm" Message-ID: <201001110057.o0B0vCg0011462@floodgap.com> > I'd love to find one if its got the Apple //e board in it. The only problem there is that most of the time they lack the Y-cable, without with the card is considerably harder to use (if not impossible). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Make welfare as hard to get as building permits. --------------------------- From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Sun Jan 10 19:08:50 2010 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 02:08:50 +0100 Subject: HDD settings on i386 AWARD BIOS Message-ID: <20100111010850.GV5758@lug-owl.de> Hi! I'd like to install on an old i386SX-16 mainboard. It comes along with 8MB RAM and 387-25 co-processor. My problem is that none of the 42 predefined HDD types fits my HDD, unfortunately not even the heads and sectors settings. (Missing some of the HDD's space due to a too small cylinders value wouldn't be a problem.) So I've got this mainboard. I cannot find a model description somewhere, only "REV 2B" and "COPYRIGHT 1989". Quality assurance sticker displays "HOWTEH Q.A", another sticker has "S/N: H 3204328" on it. During boot-up, "386SX/82335 Modular BIOS Version 3.04 (P24)" and "Copyright(c) 1984-88 Award Software Inc." are displayed, Ctrl+Alt+ESC gives the BIOS settings screen. (A photo can be found at http://lug-owl.de/~jbglaw/i386SX.jpeg .) My problem is that HDD settings 1 to 42 don't fit my HDD in any way. 43 to 47 contain all-zeroes values, so I guess they're all used for user-defined type. However, I cannot figure out any way to enter my correct C/H/S values. The displayed help is correct, but not exactly helpful to enter those numbers :) Maybe anybody recognizes this BIOS and can give me a hint? Thanks, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html the second : From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Sun Jan 10 19:11:30 2010 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 02:11:30 +0100 Subject: RAM for a VAXstation 4000 VLC Message-ID: <20100111011130.GW5758@lug-owl.de> Hi! I've got my hands on a VAXstation 4000 VLC, unfortunately with no RAM. Though I'm not 100% sure, it seems it would work with fast page 72pin SIMM modules (FPM), as long as it is with parity. Does anybody of you have some spare (up to 6) 4MB FP-SIMM modules (= 24MB total) with parity for me? Thanks, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: Alles wird gut! ...und heute wirds schon ein bi?chen besser. the second : From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jan 10 19:27:33 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 17:27:33 -0800 Subject: Apple LC2 In-Reply-To: <201001110057.o0B0vCg0011462@floodgap.com> References: <201001110057.o0B0vCg0011462@floodgap.com> Message-ID: At 4:57 PM -0800 1/10/10, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > I'd love to find one if its got the Apple //e board in it. > >The only problem there is that most of the time they lack the Y-cable, >without with the card is considerably harder to use (if not impossible). Personally I think this is the only reason someone would want an LC. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jan 10 19:42:30 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 17:42:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple LC2 In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Jan 10, 10 05:27:33 pm" Message-ID: <201001110142.o0B1gUSv016048@floodgap.com> > > > I'd love to find one if its got the Apple //e board in it. > > > > The only problem there is that most of the time they lack the Y-cable, > > without with the card is considerably harder to use (if not impossible). > > Personally I think this is the only reason someone would want an LC. My IIe card is installed in my Colour Classic, and the "LC III" in my server rack actually has a Quadra 605 board with a '040 in it. So that should tell you what I think of LCs, even though the CC is just an LC with a boob (tube) job. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- His mind is like a steel trap -- full of mice. -- Foghorn Leghorn ---------- From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Jan 10 22:56:27 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 22:56:27 -0600 Subject: Apple LC2 In-Reply-To: <073d01ca9245$b11543c0$0101a8c0@Alexandre> References: <000e01ca9215$72ba9740$582fc5c0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> <4B4A34BE.8000100@oldskool.org> <073d01ca9245$b11543c0$0101a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <4B4AAF7B.2080101@oldskool.org> On 1/10/2010 4:38 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I couldn't give mine away, even with me paying for shipping, if that's >> any indication. One of the few items in my collection I have outright >> discarded. > > Feel free to send me, even better if you have the //e emulation board :) > :) :) If it had the board, I would not have discarded it ;-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Jan 10 09:58:04 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 10:58:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: AT&T system V 386 Software needed In-Reply-To: <011020100710.5608.4B497D7800000800000015E822230703729B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> References: <011020100710.5608.4B497D7800000800000015E822230703729B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Jan 2010, g-wright at att.net wrote: > Does anyone have a complete Package of AT&T SYS V > UNIX for a the 386. I Have a AT&T 386/20 WGS computer > that came with the software but when I looked closer, it does > not have the boot disk (set up) or the license if it needs > one. It has all of the rest of the floppies. I also have a few > QIC tapes but with the same problem, no boot floppy. I have what I think is a complete set of diskettes for System V/386 r3.2 and there is nothing denoted as a boot diskette. ISTR installing from these many years ago. Are you sure there's a dedicated boot disk? I know I don't have any license codes but, again, I have no recollection of needing them. Steve -- From stevens.ludovico at wanadoo.fr Sun Jan 10 10:21:26 2010 From: stevens.ludovico at wanadoo.fr (Ludovico Stevens) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 17:21:26 +0100 Subject: Attn: Dan Wright / Looking for Remote Annex ELS - annex-R7.1B-R1.1.tar.Z Message-ID: <4B49FE86.7000705@wanadoo.fr> Hi I found your post here: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2004-May/029940.html Any chance you could send me the "annex-R7.1B-R1.1.tar.Z" file, if you still have it ? Thanks in advance Best regards Ludovico Stevens From jws at jwsss.com Sun Jan 10 13:30:58 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 11:30:58 -0800 Subject: Apple LC2 In-Reply-To: <000e01ca9215$72ba9740$582fc5c0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <000e01ca9215$72ba9740$582fc5c0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4B4A2AF2.4080300@jwsss.com> Rob Jarratt wrote: > A friend of mine has one of these. I know nothing about them. Just wondering > if this is likely to have some financial value. I know it depends on what > buyers are prepared to pay and all that, but just wondering as I could not > find any on ebay, so is it unusual or just uninteresting? > > Thanks > > Rob > > > lc2 and lc3's are nice little machines, but I have not seen them go for much. They are still 68030 based machines, but as far as value they don't have much. I always wanted to use one of the lc3's I have for a linux box, but have not had time to see how that would work out. jim From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Mon Jan 11 01:35:49 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 07:35:49 -0000 Subject: FIDONET Node List 1986 #164 (June 13 1986) In-Reply-To: <5213afdf$73da72fb$3315e626$@com> References: <5213afdf$73da72fb$3315e626$@com> Message-ID: Lo and behold there I was!!! Anybody else we know on the list? 33 Fido UK1 -Unpublished- Newbury GB Rod Smallwood 300 CT1 Regards Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bill Degnan Sent: 10 January 2010 22:53 To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: FIDONET Node List 1986 #164 (June 13 1986) I found an old FIDONET nodelist from June 13 1986 in my files today. This list is missing from any online archives I could locate, but I assume that there *must* be a comprehensive list from the 1980's, right? I have uploaded the nodelist here: http://www.vintagecomputer.net/fidonet/ 1986 #164 Here is the best archive I could find in a brief search of the web: http://ambrosia60.dnsalias.net/fidonet/nodelist.php Does anyone have any nodelists they'd like to share? If so send to me and I will post on my site. It's a shame that there is not more of a comprehensive nodelist archive. Bill From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Jan 11 03:41:03 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 07:41:03 -0200 Subject: FIDONET Node List 1986 #164 (June 13 1986) References: <5213afdf$73da72fb$3315e626$@com> Message-ID: <0a9f01ca92a2$9c992580$0101a8c0@Alexandre> > Does anyone have any nodelists they'd like to share? If so send to me and > I will post on my site. It's a shame that there is not more of a > comprehensive nodelist archive. Mine last nodelist is here: http://www.tabajara-labs.com.br/temp/NODELIST_078_14_3_1993.rar I was there, 4:802/22 ASMail :) From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Jan 11 06:26:11 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 13:26:11 +0100 Subject: new non-x86 mobos In-Reply-To: <575131af1001061132o7f2cb4ear19303f6ec66537a3@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B44E2EA.2040802@vaxen.net> <575131af1001061132o7f2cb4ear19303f6ec66537a3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100111132611.ac12289a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 6 Jan 2010 19:32:12 +0000 Liam Proven wrote: > Personally, I find the BeagleBoard a bit more interesting Or the FriendlyARM Mini2440. Though no "real" mainboard but a SBC. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From doc at vaxen.net Mon Jan 11 09:30:46 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 09:30:46 -0600 Subject: Apple LC2 In-Reply-To: <201001110057.o0B0vCg0011462@floodgap.com> References: <201001110057.o0B0vCg0011462@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4B4B4426.3000101@vaxen.net> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I'd love to find one if its got the Apple //e board in it. > > The only problem there is that most of the time they lack the Y-cable, > without with the card is considerably harder to use (if not impossible). That's one of the few classic machines I'm keeping, mostly because it's tiny and a twofer. I have an LC 475 with a SCSI-ethernet adapter, //e board with Y-cable, and both 3.5" and 5.25" drives. Oh, and a Raritan adapter so I can run it through my KVM. Doc From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jan 11 09:49:27 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 07:49:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple LC2 In-Reply-To: <4B4B4426.3000101@vaxen.net> from Doc at "Jan 11, 10 09:30:46 am" Message-ID: <201001111549.o0BFnRno018066@floodgap.com> > > The only problem there is that most of the time they lack the Y-cable, > > without with the card is considerably harder to use (if not impossible). > > That's one of the few classic machines I'm keeping, mostly because > it's tiny and a twofer. > > I have an LC 475 with a SCSI-ethernet adapter, //e board with > Y-cable, and both 3.5" and 5.25" drives. Oh, and a Raritan adapter so I > can run it through my KVM. But an LC 475 is hardly an LC II ... :) it verges on useful! -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Homestar has a web site? -- Strong Bad ------------------------------------- From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Mon Jan 11 10:00:54 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 08:00:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple LC2 In-Reply-To: <201001111549.o0BFnRno018066@floodgap.com> References: <201001111549.o0BFnRno018066@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <402468.88569.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I was kinda wanting to pick up an LCII or LCIII just to have something that I could use to transfer disk images to the IIgs. Sounds like that's not necessary these days with the updated ADT software though. ________________________________ From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Mon, January 11, 2010 9:49:27 AM Subject: Re: Apple LC2 > > The only problem there is that most of the time they lack the Y-cable, > > without with the card is considerably harder to use (if not impossible). > > That's one of the few classic machines I'm keeping, mostly because > it's tiny and a twofer. > > I have an LC 475 with a SCSI-ethernet adapter, //e board with > Y-cable, and both 3.5" and 5.25" drives. Oh, and a Raritan adapter so I > can run it through my KVM. But an LC 475 is hardly an LC II ... :) it verges on useful! -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Homestar has a web site? -- Strong Bad ------------------------------------- From doc at vaxen.net Mon Jan 11 10:04:35 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 10:04:35 -0600 Subject: Apple LC2 In-Reply-To: <201001111549.o0BFnRno018066@floodgap.com> References: <201001111549.o0BFnRno018066@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4B4B4C13.8040605@vaxen.net> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> The only problem there is that most of the time they lack the Y-cable, >>> without with the card is considerably harder to use (if not impossible). >> That's one of the few classic machines I'm keeping, mostly because >> it's tiny and a twofer. >> >> I have an LC 475 with a SCSI-ethernet adapter, //e board with >> Y-cable, and both 3.5" and 5.25" drives. Oh, and a Raritan adapter so I >> can run it through my KVM. > > But an LC 475 is hardly an LC II ... :) it verges on useful! Yes, yes it does. I forgot to mention I replaced the 680LC40 with a full 68040. HUGE difference! Doc From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Jan 11 10:13:51 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 10:13:51 -0600 Subject: Apple LC2 In-Reply-To: <402468.88569.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <201001111549.o0BFnRno018066@floodgap.com> <402468.88569.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001110813l13c21995nda4357ffa4ab57e5@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 10:00 AM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > I was kinda wanting to pick up an LCII or LCIII just to have something that I could use to >transfer disk images to the IIgs. Sounds like that's not necessary these days with the >updated ADT software though. I just used ADTPro over a serial cable the other day to write floppy images. I used XP and a 2gs. It works great, but it's a little slow because it's over a serial cable. It was only a few minutes though. I'm impatient. The LCIII with a 2e card on a network would be considerably faster. I believe ADTPro works over ethernet now, but ethernet boards for the 2e/2gs aren't cheap. brian From g-wright at att.net Mon Jan 11 11:40:48 2010 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 17:40:48 +0000 Subject: AT&T system V 386 Software needed In-Reply-To: References: <011020100710.5608.4B497D7800000800000015E822230703729B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: <011120101740.4841.4B4B62A0000AE6C6000012E922230703629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> -------------- Original message from Steven Hirsch : -------------- > On Sun, 10 Jan 2010, g-wright at att.net wrote: > snip >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > QIC tapes but with the same problem, no boot floppy. > > I have what I think is a complete set of diskettes for System V/386 r3.2 > and there is nothing denoted as a boot diskette. ISTR installing from > these many years ago. > > Are you sure there's a dedicated boot disk? I know I don't have any > license codes but, again, I have no recollection of needing them. > > Steve > > > -- Here is a list I found, I have not found any info on how to start the install. or Which disk can be used to set up the hard drive. I do not have the maintenance disk. AT&T UNIX System V/386 Release 3.02.03 Foundation Set (Base System Package, V2.3 -(8) 3.5" diskettes Editing Package, V2.3 -(1) 3.5" diskette, Remote Terminal Package, V2.3 -(1) 3.5" diskette, Remote Support Utilities 1.2 Pkg, V2.3 -(1) 3.5" diskette, Remote File Sharing 1.2 Package, V2.3 -(1) 3.5" diskette, Remote Terminal Package, V2.3 -(1) 3.5" diskette, 2-Kilobyte File System Package, V2.3 -(1) 3.5" diskette, Xenix File System Utility Package, V2.3 -(1) 3.5" diskette, FACE HELP 1.2 Package, V2.3 -(1) 3.5" diskette, FACE 1.2.2 Package, V2.3 -(2) 3.5" diskette, FMLI 1.2 Package, V2.3 -(1) 3.5" diskette, Remote File Sharing Management, V2.3 -(1) 3.5" diskette, Maintenance Disk #1, V2.1 Rel 4.0 -(1) 3.5" diskette, 2 User to 16 User Upgrade Package, V1.0 -(1) 3.5" diskette, 16 User to Unlimited User Upgrade Package, V1.0 -(1) 3.5" diskette, - Jerry From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 11 12:47:10 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 10:47:10 -0800 Subject: HDD settings on i386 AWARD BIOS In-Reply-To: <20100111010850.GV5758@lug-owl.de> References: <20100111010850.GV5758@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <4B4B01AE.5565.58A9A1@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Jan 2010 at 2:08, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > My problem is that none of the 42 predefined HDD types fits my HDD, > unfortunately not even the heads and sectors settings. (Missing some > of the HDD's space due to a too small cylinders value wouldn't be a > problem.) What kind of hard disk and controller are you using? If it's a standard MFM, 17 sectors per track was pretty much standard across all drives. (25, 26 or 32 for RLL controllers, but they have their own setup). So you should be able to at least find *something* that will halfway work. Of course, if this is an IDE or SCSI drive and controller, the controller should have its own BIOS to work in a setup like this. If it doesn't, you need to find one unless you're into BIOS hacking. You can, in a pinch, select a value that's less in all dimensions. For example, most IDE drives claim to have 63 sectors per track, but using only 17 of those will work, even if a substantial part of your drive will go unused. Just don't try to low-level format an IDE drive--some drives will actually support this and the result sometimes doesn't turn out well. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 11 12:48:33 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 10:48:33 -0800 Subject: Floppy drive track-0 issues In-Reply-To: <4B49F3BC.22427.1B41053@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20100110150435.R69765@shell.lmi.net>, <4B49F3BC.22427.1B41053@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B4B0201.19866.59EADC@cclist.sydex.com> > On 10 Jan 2010 at 15:08, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > The only 67.5 TPI drive that I have is an Epson. Who else made > > them? Did some digging around and research. The Sony OAD-1 came out slightly before the SA300. --Chuck From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Jan 11 12:57:38 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 12:57:38 -0600 Subject: HDD settings on i386 AWARD BIOS In-Reply-To: <20100111010850.GV5758@lug-owl.de> References: <20100111010850.GV5758@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001111057u1e5a6503q648fd0b839fffff4@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 7:08 PM, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > My problem is that none of the 42 predefined HDD types fits my HDD, > unfortunately not even the heads and sectors settings. (Missing some > of the HDD's space due to a too small cylinders value wouldn't be a > problem.) I was going to suggest what chuck said. Find a scsi controller (or something) that has its own bios. I'm at work, so no time to google at the moment. But isn't there an open-source bios project out there? Not sure how far along it is. But you might be able to get a copy of that on an eprom that would work maybe? brian From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 11 13:45:47 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 20:45:47 +0100 Subject: HDD settings on i386 AWARD BIOS In-Reply-To: <4B4B01AE.5565.58A9A1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20100111010850.GV5758@lug-owl.de> <4B4B01AE.5565.58A9A1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <42A8A6729D7546B1A6F885978720F642@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Chuck Guzis > Verzonden: maandag 11 januari 2010 19:47 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: HDD settings on i386 AWARD BIOS > > On 11 Jan 2010 at 2:08, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > > > My problem is that none of the 42 predefined HDD types fits my HDD, > > unfortunately not even the heads and sectors settings. > (Missing some > > of the HDD's space due to a too small cylinders value wouldn't be a > > problem.) > > What kind of hard disk and controller are you using? If it's > a standard MFM, 17 sectors per track was pretty much > standard across all drives. (25, 26 or 32 for RLL > controllers, but they have their own setup). > > So you should be able to at least find *something* that will > halfway work. > > Of course, if this is an IDE or SCSI drive and controller, > the controller should have its own BIOS to work in a setup > like this. If it doesn't, you need to find one unless you're > into BIOS hacking. > > You can, in a pinch, select a value that's less in all dimensions. > For example, most IDE drives claim to have 63 sectors per > track, but using only 17 of those will work, even if a > substantial part of your drive will go unused. > > Just don't try to low-level format an IDE drive--some drives > will actually support this and the result sometimes doesn't > turn out well. > > --Chuck > There is also the possibility to use a program like SpeedStor witch will load it's own bios extension at boot time. You can use it to format the drive and use a standard type 2 bios settings, while you can use the whole disc capacity. If you want a copy contact me off-list. -Rik From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 11 12:47:26 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:47:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Floppy drive track-0 issues In-Reply-To: <20100110135440.T68249@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jan 10, 10 01:57:15 pm Message-ID: > Unless you install it on edge or upside down, the lower head is #0, and > the upper head is #1 (or #1/#2, A/B, front/back, . . . ) For a 3.5" drive it's safe to say that the side where the motor spindle engages with the disk is the head 0 side. That's normally true of other sizes of floppy disks too, but with those it's technically possible for the motor spindle to be on either side of the media, with the 3.5" it isn't. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 11 12:54:33 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:54:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Floppy drive track-0 issues In-Reply-To: <20100110150435.R69765@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jan 10, 10 03:08:03 pm Message-ID: > > > the arm. And yes, single-head 3.5" drives do exist (as for that matter to > > 40 cylinder ones -- 67.5 tpi)/ > > The Shugart SA300 single head 3.5" drive was ued in the Gavilan, with a > custom bezel. The SA350 DS 3.5" drive could use that bezel and there was > eventually DS support (GAVILAN MS-DOS 2.11 K?) > > Which SS 3.5" drives were out before that? I assume the Sony was one of the first. I can't remember the model number of the drive (I can look it up), it's full height, 600 rpm, with a 26 pin connector. Used, for example, in the HP9121. > > > The only 67.5 TPI drive that I have is an Epson. Who else made them? The only one I've seen is the one used in the Epson portable floppy drive (PF10 or something like that) for their CP/M, etcc, laptops. That's a strange unit, the drive doesn't have its own logic board, therer's a single board with the cotnroller, CPU, firmware, read/write amplifier, etc on iot. Alas the CPU chip in mine has failed. Fortunately it's ROMless, so there's some hope of getting a replacement, it's one variant of the 6202 in a surface-mount package. Again I can dig out the number if anyone thinks they know a source... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 11 12:57:22 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:57:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Floppy drive track-0 issues In-Reply-To: <4B4A61ED.6020904@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Jan 10, 10 03:25:33 pm Message-ID: > > On 1/10/10 8:56 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > As an aside, this is a major problem on the full-height Sony 3.5" drives. > > Do you have the service manual? I was just about to upload it since it is part > of the Apricot service manual. I have the service manual for the single-head model and an unofficial scheamtic of the double-head one. Since they're indentical mechancially apart from the head carriage (and no service manual is going to cover stripping that down), I have all I need :-) Electroncially, they're quite different (and there are 2 versions of the double head PCB that I've seen -- FC9 and FC16 IIRC). The single-head PCB is quite unconventional in some areas, there's a matching transformer betwee nthe head and the read amplifer, for example. The double-head one is more normal. Thanks for asking, thouygh. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 11 12:59:55 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:59:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Floppy drive track-0 issues In-Reply-To: <4B4A62BE.7030509@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Jan 10, 10 03:29:02 pm Message-ID: > > On 1/10/10 5:05 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Firstly, clean the heads -- not with a cleaning disk (no matter what the > > manuals may say), but with a cotton bud and propan-2-ol. > > Be EXTREMELY careful doing this. At least on 800k Mac floppies it it very > easy to bend the flexure on the upper head so that it no longer has enough > downward pressure to make contact with the disk. Odd. All 3.5" double-head drive service manuals -- in fact just about all double-head flopply drive service manuals -- that I've read warn against cleaning the heads 'by hand' with a cotton bud and insist you use a cleaning disk. I've always used a cotton bud though, and had no problems at alll. Perhaps I am jsut very careful, but I have never distorted that gimbal spring during cleaning. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 11 13:02:42 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 19:02:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Apple LC2 In-Reply-To: <201001110057.o0B0vCg0011462@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Jan 10, 10 04:57:12 pm Message-ID: > > > I'd love to find one if its got the Apple //e board in it. > > The only problem there is that most of the time they lack the Y-cable, > without with the card is considerably harder to use (if not impossible). What does this Y-cable do (not being an Apple person...)? If it's just a cable (no electronics in it), can't somebody who has one 'ohm it out' and produce a wirelist? Or are the connectors unobtainable? -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 11 14:09:54 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 15:09:54 -0500 Subject: Apple LC2 In-Reply-To: References: <201001110057.o0B0vCg0011462@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 1/11/10, Tony Duell wrote: >> > What does this Y-cable do (not being an Apple person...)? According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_IIe_Card "An included "Y-cable" enables the attachment of up to two external 140 KB floppy disk 5.25" Drives, an 800 KB "intelligent" 3.5" Unidisk drive, and a joystick or paddle control for use with the hard-coded Apple IIe emulator." > If it's just a cable (no electronics in it), can't somebody who has one > 'ohm it out' and produce a wirelist? Or are the connectors unobtainable? It's a passive cable with a DA26HD on the card end and a DE9 (joystick) and "DB19" (Apple-style external disk) connectors on the other end. http://www.vintagemacworld.com/lc_card/piniie.jpg Joystick (9 pin) to IIe card connector 01 01 02 21 03 02 04 20 05 12 06 19 07 10 08 03 09 11 Disk drive (19 pin) to IIe card connector 01 04 02 04 03 13 04 14 05 no connection 06 05 07 22 08 23 09 06 10 15 11 24 12 07 13 16 14 25 15 08 16 17 17 26 18 09 19 18 While not strictly unobtanium, I wouldn't be sure where to get that DA26HD from right now. -ethan From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Jan 11 14:16:29 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:16:29 -0200 Subject: Apple LC2 References: <201001110057.o0B0vCg0011462@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <10b001ca92fd$65425e70$0101a8c0@Alexandre> > While not strictly unobtanium, I wouldn't be sure where to get that > DA26HD from right now. Here? http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=180-M2621MN-ND So easy :) Look for DB25HD on Digikey :D From mmaginnis at gmail.com Mon Jan 11 15:30:28 2010 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 14:30:28 -0700 Subject: Apple LC2 In-Reply-To: <4B4A34BE.8000100@oldskool.org> References: <4B4A34BE.8000100@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 1:12 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: > On 1/10/2010 10:53 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: -- > > I couldn't give mine away, even with me paying for shipping, if that's any > indication. ?One of the few items in my collection I have outright > discarded. > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) ? ? ? ? ? ?http://www.oldskool.org/ > Help our electronic games project: ? ? ? ? ? http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at ? ? http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ > Bummer. I'd have even given you a few dollars for it. My IIe card needs a home... - Mike From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 11 15:41:01 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 16:41:01 -0500 Subject: Apple LC2 In-Reply-To: <10b001ca92fd$65425e70$0101a8c0@Alexandre> References: <201001110057.o0B0vCg0011462@floodgap.com> <10b001ca92fd$65425e70$0101a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: On 1/11/10, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >> While not strictly unobtanium, I wouldn't be sure where to get that >> DA26HD from right now. > > Here? > > http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=180-M2621MN-ND > > So easy :) Look for DB25HD on Digikey :D At least the body of the spec does acknowledge that it's a "DA" shell. Thanks for posting that. I should probably buy a DB44HD from them (presuming they have them - I have not yet checked) to make an external IDE cable for my Planar 486DX100 "medical PC" (integral CPU, 2.5" drive, LCD, PCMCIA, 1x ISA bedside computer for patient monitoring apps) - same CPU board as at least one brand of keyboard "netstations" from the Novell era. The Planar has a DB25 for external floppy and a DB44HD for external CD-ROM. It's easy enough to pin them out, but was never able to make a CD-ROM cable. This machine, BTW, is the one that uses bizzaro 2MB and 8MB 30 pin SIMMs... that's right... they are 2-chip/4-chip SIMMs that are apparently reusing some line for an extra row or column. Mine came with 4x 2MB SIMMs and 4x4MB half-empty SIMMs. I'd love to find a few 8MB SIMMs for this - I have one set I can fully populate (with the right 16Mbit SMT DRAMs - they are pre-EDO), but I have several of these CPU boards. Anyway... good to know that it's still easy to find 3-row HD connectors in sizes larger than VGA connectors. -ethan From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Mon Jan 11 16:07:40 2010 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 23:07:40 +0100 Subject: HDD settings on i386 AWARD BIOS In-Reply-To: <4B4B01AE.5565.58A9A1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20100111010850.GV5758@lug-owl.de> <4B4B01AE.5565.58A9A1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100111220740.GF24075@lug-owl.de> On Mon, 2010-01-11 10:47:10 -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11 Jan 2010 at 2:08, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > > My problem is that none of the 42 predefined HDD types fits my HDD, > > unfortunately not even the heads and sectors settings. (Missing some > > of the HDD's space due to a too small cylinders value wouldn't be a > > problem.) > > What kind of hard disk and controller are you using? If it's a > standard MFM, 17 sectors per track was pretty much standard across > all drives. (25, 26 or 32 for RLL controllers, but they have their > own setup). It's one of these common 16bit multi-io ISA cards featuring two serial ports, one IDE port, a floppy port and a parallel port. > Of course, if this is an IDE or SCSI drive and controller, the > controller should have its own BIOS to work in a setup like this. If > it doesn't, you need to find one unless you're into BIOS hacking. Uh? Had these multi-id controllers have their own BIOS extension? My understanding is that the BIOS can handle these--all it needs to know is the geometry. (And this is because the BIOS uses C/H/S addressing instead of linear addresses.) I know for sure that I once entered the values (well, actually cyl=1024 (IIRC) and the "correct" numbers for heads and sectors.) The drive attached to the box is a modern 20GB HDD, which worked flawlessly in that box. There's even a Linux system installed on it, which was installed while the HDD was in that box. > You can, in a pinch, select a value that's less in all dimensions. > For example, most IDE drives claim to have 63 sectors per track, but > using only 17 of those will work, even if a substantial part of your > drive will go unused. The trick was to get heads and sectors correct (wrt. the drive's parameters, even if the drive was larger that some 540MB) and scale cylinders to the maximum allowed by the BIOS. That way, using a "modern" large IDE disk, one can boot off with an old BIOS by having a /boot partition (containing everything that the boot loader (through BIOS calls) needs to access.) I even screwed off the VGA/EGA card, the network card as well as the multi-io board to be able to have a view at the back of the motherboard. Unfortunately, everything I found was a sticker mentioning the end-of-guarantee date... MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: Fortschritt bedeutet, einen Schritt so zu machen, the second : da? man den n?chsten auch noch machen kann. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 11 16:57:51 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 14:57:51 -0800 Subject: HDD settings on i386 AWARD BIOS In-Reply-To: <20100111220740.GF24075@lug-owl.de> References: <20100111010850.GV5758@lug-owl.de>, <4B4B01AE.5565.58A9A1@cclist.sydex.com>, <20100111220740.GF24075@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <4B4B3C6F.17739.13E288C@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Jan 2010 at 23:07, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > Uh? Had these multi-id controllers have their own BIOS extension? My > understanding is that the BIOS can handle these--all it needs to know > is the geometry. (And this is because the BIOS uses C/H/S addressing > instead of linear addresses.) Some of the early ones did indeed have their own BIOSes. Some of the early IDE drives even had a translation mode that gave you 17 sectors per track (I don't know if your current one does). Some motherboard BIOSes pretty much had a "take it or leave it" table of values, but I don't know if that extends to yours (The IBM 5170, for example gave you a limited set of choices). Later motherboards knew about IDE (and ESDI) drives and would issue the IDENTIFY command and read the drive geometry directly. Earlier boards made to work only with MFM controllers obviously couldn't do this. You might try going to type 47 and hitting a few keys to see if the BIOS will allow you to enter values--one of the old Award BIOS versions allowed that. One of my Award BIOSes has NONE, 1-46 and USER, for example. It's also possible that another maker's BIOS will work, but you haven't identified the chipset for the board, so it's hard to say if anything readily available can be used. Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jan 11 20:28:17 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:28:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: GopherVR 0.4 Message-ID: <201001120228.o0C2SHOR014424@floodgap.com> For those following GopherVR's evolution, a "virtual reality" interface to Gopherspace, version 0.4 is out. This fixes a lot of problems and makes it much more controllable. You can get the source, plus pre-built Universal binaries for Mac OS X 10.4 through 10.6, and see screenshots at http://www.floodgap.com/software/gophervr/ gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/1/gophervr -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Magic armour is not all it's cracked up to be. -- Terry Pratchett ---------- From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Mon Jan 11 21:11:49 2010 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 21:11:49 -0600 Subject: Dr. Dobb's Z80 Toolbook now online Message-ID: <4E36D9B214584354801D5102E1A3FF08@obie> Dave Cortesi, author of "Inside CP/M" and "A Programmer's Notebook", has just published an online version of "Dr. Dobb's Z80 Toolbook", originally printed in 1985. In addition to the original text, Dave has prepared a .zip file with the original files and tools (including RMAC, LINK, LIB and XREF) on disk images ready for use with SIMH. The book is here - http://www.tassos-oak.com/NB2/toolbook.html - along with a link to the code files. Thanks to Dave for his generosity in making these tools available again. best, Jack From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Jan 12 00:49:44 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 22:49:44 -0800 Subject: Tek 465/475 repair. Message-ID: How difficult is it to repair a bad channel on a tek 465/475? It is starting to look like I?m only going to be able to afford a half-broken scope :( From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Jan 11 17:27:35 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:27:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: AT&T system V 386 Software needed In-Reply-To: <011120101740.4841.4B4B62A0000AE6C6000012E922230703629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> References: <011020100710.5608.4B497D7800000800000015E822230703729B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> <011120101740.4841.4B4B62A0000AE6C6000012E922230703629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Jan 2010, g-wright at att.net wrote: >> Are you sure there's a dedicated boot disk? I know I don't have any >> license codes but, again, I have no recollection of needing them. >> > Here is a list I found, I have not found any info on > how to start the install. or Which disk can be used to set up the > hard drive. I do not have the maintenance disk. > > AT&T UNIX System V/386 Release 3.02.03 > > Foundation Set > > (Base System Package, V2.3 -(8) 3.5" diskettes Have v2.0 (7) 5.25" diskettes > Editing Package, V2.3 -(1) 3.5" diskette, Have 2.0 (1) 5.25" > Remote Terminal Package, V2.3 -(1) 3.5" diskette, Have 2.0 > Remote Support Utilities 1.2 Pkg, V2.3 -(1) 3.5" diskette, Don't have this > Remote File Sharing 1.2 Package, V2.3 -(1) 3.5" diskette, Have 2.0 > 2-Kilobyte File System Package, V2.3 -(1) 3.5" diskette, Have 2.0 > Xenix File System Utility Package, V2.3 -(1) 3.5" diskette, Have 2.0 > FACE HELP 1.2 Package, V2.3 -(1) 3.5" diskette, > > FACE 1.2.2 Package, V2.3 -(2) 3.5" diskette, > > FMLI 1.2 Package, V2.3 -(1) 3.5" diskette, Have all the above > Remote File Sharing Management, V2.3 -(1) 3.5" diskette, Nope > Maintenance Disk #1, V2.1 Rel 4.0 -(1) 3.5" diskette, Nope > 2 User to 16 User Upgrade Package, V1.0 -(1) 3.5" diskette, Nope > 16 User to Unlimited User Upgrade Package, V1.0 -(1) 3.5" diskette, Nope Also have: Network Support Utilities 1.2 2-Kilobyte File System Utility Package Steve -- From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Jan 12 01:36:01 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 05:36:01 -0200 Subject: Tek 465/475 repair. References: Message-ID: <007501ca9359$f5ffb9b0$0101a8c0@Alexandre> >How difficult is it to repair a bad channel on a tek 465/475? It is >starting to look like I?m only going to be able to afford a half-broken >scope :( Not so hard. Look for the "tekscopes" list on yahoo, you'll find a great deal of help there! From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Jan 12 03:09:49 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 10:09:49 +0100 Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: References: <20100110141507.13e7b6fd.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20100112100949.73c272e0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 14:02:22 +0000 (GMT) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > So, considering that the smoke that comes off when I solder is mostly > flux, I guess I am safer sticking to the old leaded solder. You need lead free / RoHS certified components to use with lead free solder. You can not mix leaded with unleaded solder. So you need different tips for your soldering iron to prevent contamination. Unleaded solder needs higher temeratures also. I.e. if you repair older, leaded electronics you must use leaded solder. So most likely it will take an other 10 years until we hit this problem in this mailing list. ;-) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From quapla at xs4all.nl Tue Jan 12 03:26:36 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 10:26:36 +0100 Subject: VAX 6000 model 410 available Message-ID: All, I have a VAX 6000 model 410 available for free. It must go before the end of January but if interested, let me know before then end of the week. Machine has been switched of about 3 years ago and it's only the CPU cabinet, no additional cab's. If more details can be recovered, I'll post them. Regards, Ed -- Certified : VCP 3.x, SCSI 3.x SCSA S10, SCNA S10 From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Jan 12 07:22:22 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 05:22:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: VAX 6000 model 410 available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <665613.24217.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 1/12/10, Ed Groenenberg wrote: > I have a VAX 6000 model 410 available for free. > It must go before the end of January but if interested, > let me know before then end of the week. > > Machine has been switched of about 3 years ago and it's > only the CPU cabinet, no additional cab's. > > If more details can be recovered, I'll post them. Where is it? -Ian From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Tue Jan 12 07:34:53 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 14:34:53 +0100 Subject: VAX 6000 model 410 available In-Reply-To: <665613.24217.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <665613.24217.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <57F57A0F31694E6BB9B7CE21C7D95B21@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Mr Ian Primus > Verzonden: dinsdag 12 januari 2010 14:22 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: VAX 6000 model 410 available > > --- On Tue, 1/12/10, Ed Groenenberg wrote: > > > I have a VAX 6000 model 410 available for free. > > It must go before the end of January but if interested, let me know > > before then end of the week. > > > > Machine has been switched of about 3 years ago and it's > only the CPU > > cabinet, no additional cab's. > > > > If more details can be recovered, I'll post them. > > Where is it? > > -Ian At Ed's home, my side of the big water not sure if it's below the big rivers.. ;-) -Rik From quapla at xs4all.nl Tue Jan 12 07:58:01 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 14:58:01 +0100 Subject: VAX 6000 model 410 available In-Reply-To: <665613.24217.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <665613.24217.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7109b6ce40cd387b83a80a2ae6cc795e.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> It's in Holland, and it is above the rivers. Too big to ship I'm afraid... Ed > --- On Tue, 1/12/10, Ed Groenenberg wrote: > >> I have a VAX 6000 model 410 available for free. >> It must go before the end of January but if interested, >> let me know before then end of the week. >> >> Machine has been switched of about 3 years ago and it's >> only the CPU cabinet, no additional cab's. >> >> If more details can be recovered, I'll post them. > > Where is it? > > -Ian > -- Certified : VCP 3.x, SCSI 3.x SCSA S10, SCNA S10 From jgessling at yahoo.com Tue Jan 12 09:03:40 2010 From: jgessling at yahoo.com (James Gessling) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 07:03:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fw: DEC PWS 500au looking for new home Message-ID: <277114.6990.qm@web31903.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Please contact him directly. Thanks, Jim --- On Mon, 1/11/10, Wesley Dunnahoo wrote: > From: Wesley Dunnahoo > Subject: DEC PWS 500au looking for new home > To: VMS-SIG at LISTSERV.ENCOMPASSUS.ORG > Date: Monday, January 11, 2010, 7:44 PM > I have an old Alpha PWS 500au > available to anyone who wants it.? LOCAL PICKUP ONLY in > the St. Louis, MO area.? I'm currently between jobs and > am spending my time looking for a new job, testing OpenVMS > 8.4 and learning JAVA.? I don't have the time or money > to pack and ship it. > > Currently it won't boot because the ARC/SRM eproms need > reflashing.? I've been told it's a matter of setting a > jumper on the mother board, running the flash utility from > CD-ROM or floppy, setting the jumper back and replacing the > flash RAM battery.? I used to run OpenVMS 7.3-1 on it > before upgrading to an ES45 and rx4640. > > As far as I remember, it has 768MB of RAM, a 36GB SCSI hard > drive and two internal CD-ROMs (one is SCSI and bootable by > OpenVMS).? I also comes with an HP keyboard, a three > button mouse and an external SCSI CD-ROM (not bootable by > VMS).? It may also contain a 72GB SCSI disk also (I > can't remember). > > I'd like it to go to a loving home than just going to the > dump. > > Thanks everyone, > > Wesley > From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 12 09:51:39 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 07:51:39 -0800 Subject: Fw: DEC PWS 500au looking for new home In-Reply-To: <277114.6990.qm@web31903.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <277114.6990.qm@web31903.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: For anyone in the St. Louis area this is a great deal. The PWS systems are nice machines, a PWS 433au was my primary VMS box for a number of years, until I replaced it with an XP1000/667. It should be fairly simple to reflash the motherboard IIRC. Zane At 7:03 AM -0800 1/12/10, James Gessling wrote: >Please contact him directly. Thanks, Jim > >--- On Mon, 1/11/10, Wesley Dunnahoo wrote: > >> From: Wesley Dunnahoo >> Subject: DEC PWS 500au looking for new home >> To: VMS-SIG at LISTSERV.ENCOMPASSUS.ORG >> Date: Monday, January 11, 2010, 7:44 PM >> I have an old Alpha PWS 500au >> available to anyone who wants it. LOCAL PICKUP ONLY in >> the St. Louis, MO area. I'm currently between jobs and >> am spending my time looking for a new job, testing OpenVMS >> 8.4 and learning JAVA. I don't have the time or money >> to pack and ship it. >> >> Currently it won't boot because the ARC/SRM eproms need >> reflashing. I've been told it's a matter of setting a >> jumper on the mother board, running the flash utility from >> CD-ROM or floppy, setting the jumper back and replacing the >> flash RAM battery. I used to run OpenVMS 7.3-1 on it >> before upgrading to an ES45 and rx4640. >> >> As far as I remember, it has 768MB of RAM, a 36GB SCSI hard >> drive and two internal CD-ROMs (one is SCSI and bootable by >> OpenVMS). I also comes with an HP keyboard, a three >> button mouse and an external SCSI CD-ROM (not bootable by >> VMS). It may also contain a 72GB SCSI disk also (I >> can't remember). >> >> I'd like it to go to a loving home than just going to the >> dump. >> >> Thanks everyone, >> >> Wesley >> > > > -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From fryers at gmail.com Tue Jan 12 11:22:06 2010 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 17:22:06 +0000 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks Message-ID: Man crushed to death by computer gear http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/12/2790875.htm Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From evan at snarc.net Tue Jan 12 11:33:40 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 12:33:40 -0500 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B4CB274.6000207@snarc.net> > Man crushed to death by computer gear > http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/12/2790875.htm > > Simon > Back in 2006, Sellam showed up at VCF East 3.0 with a forehead wound. Seems a monitor was perilously perched atop a tall rack, and Sellam tried moving that rack .... From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Tue Jan 12 11:46:37 2010 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 11:46:37 -0600 (CST) Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jan 2010, Simon Fryer wrote: > Man crushed to death by computer gear > http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/12/2790875.htm Probably a reflection of my sickness (in computer collecting terms), but the first thing I wanted to know was what fell on him. 400lbs doesn't seem that much to me - I've moved both an Onyx10000 rack and a complete IBM SP2 frame up the stairs to my office (very steep, no hand rails and nowhere to run if they come crashing down) and survived to tell the tale. Maybe I'm just immensely lucky. In fact, that's almost certainly it. God protects drunks, children... and demented computer collectors? - JP From trag at io.com Tue Jan 12 12:16:40 2010 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 12:16:40 -0600 (CST) Subject: Apple LC2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9c17cd4b83cb4aa6711adab7991a47d7.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> > > Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 10:04:35 -0600 > From: Doc > Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> But an LC 475 is hardly an LC II ... :) it verges on useful! > > Yes, yes it does. I forgot to mention I replaced the 680LC40 with a > full 68040. HUGE difference! Now you just need to do the 25 MHz => 33 MHz modification (couple of resistors) or, if you're really ambitious and can find a MC88916DW80 do the 25 MHz => 40 MHz modification. The latter may also require 80ns VRAM. Jeff Walther From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue Jan 12 12:19:35 2010 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 13:19:35 -0500 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <474269.94803.qm@smtp102.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> On Tue, 12 Jan 2010 11:46:37 -0600 (CST), JP Hindin wrote: >Maybe I'm just immensely lucky. In fact, that's almost certainly it. God >protects drunks, children... and demented computer collectors? With that logic, his last words may have been "what do you think the melt value of this mutter is worth?" and likely not "Cant wait to get this running again!" PS: in the case of Drunks and Children, they Bounce! The other Bob From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Jan 12 13:16:44 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 14:16:44 -0500 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B4CCA9C.1080006@atarimuseum.com> Sridhar and I were moving a DEC cabinet up some stairs behind my house a few years back and we all lost grip of it and it nearly took out Sridhar, yeah --- cab's are big and heavy!!! I also had an Asteroids upright arcade come down on my chest while loading it into a u-haul back in 2001, not fun I can tell you, hurt like h*ll Curt Simon Fryer wrote: > Man crushed to death by computer gear > http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/12/2790875.htm > > Simon > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Jan 12 13:17:27 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 14:17:27 -0500 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B4CB274.6000207@snarc.net> References: <4B4CB274.6000207@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4B4CCAC7.7010207@atarimuseum.com> Nah --- that's a lie - Sellam wife hit him with a rolling pin! ;-) Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> Man crushed to death by computer gear >> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/12/2790875.htm >> >> Simon >> > > Back in 2006, Sellam showed up at VCF East 3.0 with a forehead wound. > Seems a monitor was perilously perched atop a tall rack, and Sellam > tried moving that rack .... > From ragooman at comcast.net Tue Jan 12 13:28:47 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 19:28:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B4CCA9C.1080006@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <1215752239.10099841263324527944.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> ----- Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Sridhar and I were moving a DEC cabinet up some stairs behind my house a > few years back and we all lost grip of it and it nearly took out > Sridhar, yeah --- cab's are big and heavy!!! I also had an Asteroids > upright arcade come down on my chest while loading it into a u-haul back > in 2001, not fun I can tell you, hurt like h*ll > > isn't that Newtons fourth law of motion Every object in a state of uniform motion creates an action of kinetic energy resulting in a painful reaction. > > Simon Fryer wrote: > > Man crushed to death by computer gear > > http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/12/2790875.htm > > > > Simon > > > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jan 12 14:20:44 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 15:20:44 -0500 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <1215752239.10099841263324527944.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> References: <4B4CCA9C.1080006@atarimuseum.com> <1215752239.10099841263324527944.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: In all seriousness, people, be careful when moving this stuff, and remember that mechanical physics can be either your best friend or worst enemy. Always plan out the move from beginning to end. In my early days I had one piece get away, but it did not go far, although it did leave a small dent on my van. These days, it can often take me a long time to unload a heavy piece from my trailer, because I move very slowly and carefully. That being said, I will now solicit for help this week end in Schenectady, where I will be unloading three Cybers plus a 400 Hz M-G set. I have already roped one person in, but another would be welcome. Food and drinks on me. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 12 14:26:05 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 15:26:05 -0500 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: References: <4B4CCA9C.1080006@atarimuseum.com> <1215752239.10099841263324527944.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <418C6178-F7CE-4FED-A4CA-060DA55DAEBC@neurotica.com> On Jan 12, 2010, at 3:20 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > In all seriousness, people, be careful when moving this stuff, and > remember that mechanical physics can be either your best friend or > worst enemy. Always plan out the move from beginning to end. In my > early days I had one piece get away, but it did not go far, although > it did leave a small dent on my van. These days, it can often take me > a long time to unload a heavy piece from my trailer, because I move > very slowly and carefully. You should've seen Sridhar, me, and three building management guys loading a z890 a couple of months ago. OH MY GOD that machine is heavy. > That being said, I will now solicit for help this week end in > Schenectady, where I will be unloading three Cybers plus a 400 Hz M-G > set. I have already roped one person in, but another would be welcome. > Food and drinks on me. If I had any income right now, I'd fly up there to help just to get a chance to see those machines. What models are they? -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Jan 12 14:32:14 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 14:32:14 -0600 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: References: <4B4CCA9C.1080006@atarimuseum.com> <1215752239.10099841263324527944.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001121232p71be16f0l29c108afcf002597@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 2:20 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > In all seriousness, people, be careful when moving this stuff, and > remember that mechanical physics can be either your best friend or > worst enemy. In the woodworking groups, we talk about this stuff all the time. People frequently have wood shops in their basement and have to get new machines down the stairs. The only advice I can offer is what the woodworking people do. Frequently, they disassemble machines as much as possible. They remove motors and cast iron tables and carry the pieces to the basement. The other thing they do is use engine cranes. I have a fold-up engine crane and a flat trailer. I was able to move all of the big machines in my shop in about a day. It's scary seeing a 500lb machine suspended a couple feet in the air, but it works well assuming you've tied it up correctly. And it's only scary because you're risking the machine. You're not actually under it. The only drama I had was my own fault. I didn't realize (seems obvious now) that the 1000lb rating means different things for lifting straps, towing straps, and tie-down straps. I used the tie-down variety to lift an 80 gallon compressor (the size of a fridge). I lifted it onto the trailer, moved it, then lifted it off of the trailer and had it 2 feet from it's intended resting place when the metal part of the strap broke. Luckily, it only dropped an inch to the concrete and let down slowly as the strap unraveled. 10 minutes earlier, it had been 2 feet in the air. brian From mikelee at tdh.com Tue Jan 12 14:49:05 2010 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 14:49:05 -0600 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B4CCA9C.1080006@atarimuseum.com> References: <4B4CCA9C.1080006@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4B4CE041.9010200@tdh.com> I have seen and felt, from one floor below, an fully populated EMC Symmetrix cabinet fall on it's side. Someone, who shouldn't have been, decided it needed to be moved, and rolled a wheel into a cutout in the raised flooring, and down it went. Luckily the guy moving it fell off to the side through an open tile, and the cabinet came down on it's side breaking several floor tiles and dislodging/shattering all the drop ceiling tiles nearby on the floor below. Had he fallen under it, that would probably been the end of him. I also had an arcade cabinet fall on me before, not fun. First time was trying to get one out of a Uhaul by myself, I was lowering it down and the top heavy monitor just went tumbling over. Wasn't too bad, I decided to just let go and get out of the way, and machine came to a rest on it's front unharmed, and second was lowering it down a set of stairs by myself, and it decided to just slide down the whole way pushing me down the rest of the stairs along with it. On 1/12/2010 1:16 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Sridhar and I were moving a DEC cabinet up some stairs behind my house > a few years back and we all lost grip of it and it nearly took out > Sridhar, yeah --- cab's are big and heavy!!! I also had an Asteroids > upright arcade come down on my chest while loading it into a u-haul > back in 2001, not fun I can tell you, hurt like h*ll > > > > Curt > > > > Simon Fryer wrote: >> Man crushed to death by computer gear >> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/12/2790875.htm >> >> Simon >> From evan at snarc.net Tue Jan 12 14:52:07 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 15:52:07 -0500 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <418C6178-F7CE-4FED-A4CA-060DA55DAEBC@neurotica.com> References: <4B4CCA9C.1080006@atarimuseum.com> <1215752239.10099841263324527944.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <418C6178-F7CE-4FED-A4CA-060DA55DAEBC@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B4CE0F7.9050408@snarc.net> Curt wrote: > Sridhar and I were moving a DEC cabinet up some stairs Will wrote: > You should've seen Sridhar, me, and three building management guys > loading a z890 a couple of months ago. OH MY GOD that machine is heavy. I'm beginning to think Sridhar isn't the best schlepper-helper. :) Curt and Will are big. Sridhar is my size, that is, built like a stick .... From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Jan 12 14:54:12 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 12:54:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <140860.54453.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 1/12/10, William Donzelli wrote: > In all seriousness, people, be > careful when moving this stuff, and > remember that mechanical physics can be either your best > friend or > worst enemy. Definitely. And the last thing we need is to have one of us get killed because a disk array fell off a forklift or something. And, don't underestimate how heavy smaller items are too. Even moving something one-person-liftable can be dangerous to your back. I recently got a back brace for doing repeated lifting of heavy objects (specifically, computer floor tiles). It really does reduce the strain of lifting things. > That being said, I will now solicit for help this week end > in > Schenectady, where I will be unloading three Cybers plus a > 400 Hz M-G > set. I have already roped one person in, but another would > be welcome. > Food and drinks on me. Ooh, man, that's not going to be fun unloading in the cold. I feel sorry for that poor sap you talked into helping you. Wait... Schenectady... right.... That's me, isn't it. Doh! Actually, in all seriousness, the weather is looking to be nice this weekend (as nice as it gets in New York in the winter). And with planning, everything should go well. And if anyone wants to bask in the glory of a complicated ECL computer system (and, of course, help move it), stop on by! -Ian From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Jan 12 14:55:44 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 14:55:44 -0600 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B4CE041.9010200@tdh.com> References: <4B4CCA9C.1080006@atarimuseum.com> <4B4CE041.9010200@tdh.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001121255q36fc35e6q72fdf10705280598@mail.gmail.com> Back when I was a kid, I worked for a computer rental house. We stacked IBM 5160s and 5170s on their side on a rack about 6' off the ground. I was pulling a bunch of them out for a job and dropped one 6' to the concrete floor. I jumped out of the way. The face broke off. But otherwise it was ok. It didn't even bend the case. brian From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 12 15:06:25 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 13:06:25 -0800 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B4CE041.9010200@tdh.com> References: , <4B4CCA9C.1080006@atarimuseum.com>, <4B4CE041.9010200@tdh.com> Message-ID: <4B4C73D1.14388.C532E9@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Jan 2010 at 14:49, Michael Lee wrote: > I have seen and felt, from one floor below, an fully populated EMC > Symmetrix cabinet fall on it's side. Someone, who shouldn't have > been, decided it needed to be moved, and rolled a wheel into a cutout > in the raised flooring, and down it went. Luckily the guy moving it > fell off to the side through an open tile, and the cabinet came down > on it's side breaking several floor tiles and dislodging/shattering > all the drop ceiling tiles nearby on the floor below. Had he fallen > under it, that would probably been the end of him. Definitely not the people you want to move your nice shiny Bosendorfer Concert Grand (piano). Crikey. --Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Jan 12 15:20:56 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 13:20:56 -0800 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B4C73D1.14388.C532E9@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B4CCA9C.1080006@atarimuseum.com>, <4B4CE041.9010200@tdh.com> <4B4C73D1.14388.C532E9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 1:06 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Be careful handling computer racks > > On 12 Jan 2010 at 14:49, Michael Lee wrote: > > > I have seen and felt, from one floor below, an fully populated EMC > > Symmetrix cabinet fall on it's side. Someone, who shouldn't have > > been, decided it needed to be moved, and rolled a wheel into a cutout > > in the raised flooring, and down it went. Luckily the guy moving it > > fell off to the side through an open tile, and the cabinet came down > > on it's side breaking several floor tiles and dislodging/shattering > > all the drop ceiling tiles nearby on the floor below. Had he fallen > > under it, that would probably been the end of him. > > Definitely not the people you want to move your nice shiny > Bosendorfer Concert Grand (piano). Crikey. > When I got my VAX 6660, it was on a pallet that was well on its way to being nothing more than kindling. As the poor delivery guy was trying to get it onto the lift gate and down, it listed seriously, and I wondered if we were going to lose either the machine or one of us! We got it down to the ground safely and wheeled it (on a pallet jack) into my garage. When it came time to move it into the house, I surveyed the two steps up from my garage to the basement with dismay. A friend came up with the idea of using a standard appliance dolly to move it. We secured the machine, tilted it over on the dolly's rollers and pushed it into the house on its side. Then came the job of picking it back up! We just could not get enough leverage to bring it up off the floor. Finally, I grabbed a floor jack, placed it under the spine of the dolly and angled the VAX up just close enough to the tipping point that the two of us could bring it the rest of the way up, without dropping it on its feet. Thank God those wonderful DEC casters took over from there.... -- Ian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 12 14:58:34 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 20:58:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Apple LC2 In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jan 11, 10 03:09:54 pm Message-ID: [Cable details deleted] > While not strictly unobtanium, I wouldn't be sure where to get that > DA26HD from right now. It's probably easier to find than the 19 pin D for the floppy drive (although I suppose you could wire upo a couple of 20 pin headers and used the old Disk IIs with it). What is the name for that connector anyhow? I've seen it called a DF19 (and a DG23 for the 23 pin version), but I am not convinced those are the offiical names. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 12 15:01:12 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 21:01:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Apple LC2 In-Reply-To: <10b001ca92fd$65425e70$0101a8c0@Alexandre> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Jan 11, 10 06:16:29 pm Message-ID: > > > > While not strictly unobtanium, I wouldn't be sure where to get that > > DA26HD from right now. > > Here? > http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=180-M2621MN-ND > > So easy :) Look for DB25HD on Digikey :D Why would you search for D_B_ anything? It's an A-size shell... Anyway, I've found all sorts of odd connectors at Digikey. They haev a good range of edge connectors (0.125" and 0.156" pitch edge connectors are almost unobtainable over here), they were also the only place I could get a cable-mounting microribbon socket. And I diskvoerd they sell UNC nuts and bolts :-). You haev to buy them in packets of 100, but that's not an excessive number. So I now haev a box of the most common types here... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 12 15:04:19 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 21:04:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HDD settings on i386 AWARD BIOS In-Reply-To: <20100111220740.GF24075@lug-owl.de> from "Jan-Benedict Glaw" at Jan 11, 10 11:07:40 pm Message-ID: > > > Of course, if this is an IDE or SCSI drive and controller, the=20 > > controller should have its own BIOS to work in a setup like this. If=20 > > it doesn't, you need to find one unless you're into BIOS hacking. > > Uh? Had these multi-id controllers have their own BIOS extension? My I was wondering about that too. The IDE interface is essentially the same at the I/O port level as the original PC/AT hard disk controller, so it whould work with the standard motherboard BIOS. FWIW. I have an IDE hard disk in this PC. The controller is a slightly-hacked one using a few TTL chips and an address decoder PAL. There is no BIOS extension ROM, the original IBM BIOS talks to it just fine. I did have to modify the drive parameter table (IBM didn't have user-definded drive types on the PC/AT), but given the TechRefs that was a trivial job. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 12 15:14:24 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 21:14:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tek 465/475 repair. In-Reply-To: from "Geoffrey Reed" at Jan 11, 10 10:49:44 pm Message-ID: > > How difficult is it to repair a bad channel on a tek 465/475? It is > starting to look like I=B9m only going to be able to afford a half-broken > scope :( I don;t know how easy it is to get the components now (are there any Tek-specific ICs?), but Tektronix published excellent manuals with schematics, and you have aready-made refeernce circuit in the other channel to compare agaainst. So finding the fault may not be too hard. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 12 15:18:22 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 21:18:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod) In-Reply-To: <20100112100949.73c272e0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Jan 12, 10 10:09:49 am Message-ID: > > So, considering that the smoke that comes off when I solder is mostly=20 > > flux, I guess I am safer sticking to the old leaded solder. > You need lead free / RoHS certified components to use with lead free > solder. You can not mix leaded with unleaded solder. So you need As I understand it (and partical experience partially verifies this), the problem is contamination of lead-free solder with lead. Not the reverse. In other words, you can't use old leaded components with lead free solder, but there's no problem in soldering lead-free components with lead/tin solder I've done that many times and had no problems. > different tips for your soldering iron to prevent contamination. > Unleaded solder needs higher temeratures also. I.e. if you repair > older, leaded electronics you must use leaded solder. So most likely it Sure. Which I do anyway. The point is for things I build myself for myself. I am currently sticking to leaded solder (for many reasons), my comment was that as the amount of lead in the fumes is miniaml -- they're mostly flux -- and as the lead-free flux is more toxic, I may acutally be safer sticking to the lead solder. > will take an other 10 years until we hit this problem in this mailing > list. ;-) -tony From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Jan 12 15:29:51 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 13:29:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <833622.76410.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 1/12/10, Ian King wrote: > When I got my VAX 6660, it was on a pallet that was well on > its way to being nothing more than kindling. As the > poor delivery guy was trying to get it onto the lift gate > and down, it listed seriously, and I wondered if we were > going to lose either the machine or one of us! We got > it down to the ground safely and wheeled it (on a pallet > jack) into my garage. > > When it came time to move it into the house, I surveyed the > two steps up from my garage to the basement with > dismay. A friend came up with the idea of using a > standard appliance dolly to move it. We secured the > machine, tilted it over on the dolly's rollers and pushed it > into the house on its side. Then came the job of > picking it back up! We just could not get enough > leverage to bring it up off the floor. Finally, I > grabbed a floor jack, placed it under the spine of the dolly > and angled the VAX up just close enough to the tipping point > that the two of us could bring it the rest of the way up, > without dropping it on its feet. Thank God those > wonderful DEC casters took over from there.... -- Ian Hehe. When I brought my Vax 6210 into the basement, I disassembled it. Of course, that massive cabinet doesn't come apart, but the doors and top come off, the blowers and power supplies can be removed, and it can be made somewhat lighter and more manuverable. I've also moved another Vax 6000 by myself - loading it into the van on it's side, then getting it out and standing up on it's casters again. I must say, that's very difficult (and probably rather stupid) to do alone. -Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 12 15:31:04 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 16:31:04 -0500 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B4CE0F7.9050408@snarc.net> References: <4B4CCA9C.1080006@atarimuseum.com> <1215752239.10099841263324527944.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <418C6178-F7CE-4FED-A4CA-060DA55DAEBC@neurotica.com> <4B4CE0F7.9050408@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Jan 12, 2010, at 3:52 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> Sridhar and I were moving a DEC cabinet up some stairs > > Will wrote: >> You should've seen Sridhar, me, and three building management guys >> loading a z890 a couple of months ago. OH MY GOD that machine is >> heavy. > > I'm beginning to think Sridhar isn't the best schlepper-helper. :) > > Curt and Will are big. Sridhar is my size, that is, built like a > stick .... Sridhar is HALF your size, Evan. ;) He's an extremely helpful mover...just not so much in the actual hefting heavy things part. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mardy at voysys.com Tue Jan 12 15:31:52 2010 From: mardy at voysys.com (Marden P. Marshall) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 16:31:52 -0500 Subject: Looking for Altair 680 parts Message-ID: Hi All, I'm trying to piece together an Altair 680 and am looking for a motherboard and display board, either for sale or trade. Either new or replica would be fine. Thanks, -Mardy From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 12 15:33:54 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 16:33:54 -0500 Subject: Tek 465/475 repair. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jan 12, 2010, at 4:14 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> How difficult is it to repair a bad channel on a tek 465/475? It is >> starting to look like I=B9m only going to be able to afford a half- >> broken >> scope :( > > I don;t know how easy it is to get the components now (are there any > Tek-specific ICs?), but Tektronix published excellent manuals with > schematics, and you have aready-made refeernce circuit in the other > channel to compare agaainst. So finding the fault may not be too hard. There are no proprietary ICs in the 465/475, as far as I'm aware. I have those manuals if anyone needs them. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jan 12 15:36:22 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 16:36:22 -0500 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B4CE041.9010200@tdh.com> References: <4B4CCA9C.1080006@atarimuseum.com> <4B4CE041.9010200@tdh.com> Message-ID: > I have seen and felt, from one floor below, an fully populated EMC Symmetrix > cabinet fall on it's side. I should say that a couple of months ago I dropped a big Amperif disk array (1600 pounds of Sabres for Cybers) off the forklift when pulling it out of the trailer. No big deal, it was scrap anyway. Kind of neat - one of those slow motion episodes... -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jan 12 15:38:44 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 16:38:44 -0500 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B4CE0F7.9050408@snarc.net> References: <4B4CCA9C.1080006@atarimuseum.com> <1215752239.10099841263324527944.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <418C6178-F7CE-4FED-A4CA-060DA55DAEBC@neurotica.com> <4B4CE0F7.9050408@snarc.net> Message-ID: > Will wrote: >> >> You should've seen Sridhar, me, and three building management guys loading >> a z890 a couple of months ago. ?OH MY GOD that machine is heavy. Not me writing that! It took 45 minutes, but I unloaded a S/390 (2003) off my trailer by myself. Slow and controlled. -- Will From evan at snarc.net Tue Jan 12 15:39:48 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 16:39:48 -0500 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: References: <4B4CCA9C.1080006@atarimuseum.com> <1215752239.10099841263324527944.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <418C6178-F7CE-4FED-A4CA-060DA55DAEBC@neurotica.com> <4B4CE0F7.9050408@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4B4CEC24.8040203@snarc.net> >>> Sridhar and I were moving a DEC cabinet up some stairs >> >> Will wrote: >>> You should've seen Sridhar, me, and three building management guys >>> loading a z890 a couple of months ago. OH MY GOD that machine is heavy. >> >> I'm beginning to think Sridhar isn't the best schlepper-helper. :) >> >> Curt and Will are big. Sridhar is my size, that is, built like a >> stick .... > > Sridhar is HALF your size, Evan. ;) He's an extremely helpful > mover...just not so much in the actual hefting heavy things part. ;) > > -Dave I was being nice. Eh, not really. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jan 12 15:40:13 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 16:40:13 -0500 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <140860.54453.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <140860.54453.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Definitely. And the last thing we need is to have one of us get killed because a disk array fell off a forklift or something. Hey, you thought it was cool as well. -- Will From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Jan 12 15:30:02 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 19:30:02 -0200 Subject: Apple LC2 References: Message-ID: <05dd01ca93d0$eaecab60$0101a8c0@Alexandre> >> So easy :) Look for DB25HD on Digikey :D > Why would you search for D_B_ anything? It's an A-size shell... Because I do believe in dumb people and "false standards" =) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jan 12 15:49:42 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 16:49:42 -0500 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <140860.54453.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <140860.54453.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Actually, in all seriousness, the weather is looking to be nice this weekend (as nice as it gets in New York in the winter). And with planning, everything should go well. And if anyone wants to bask in the glory of a complicated ECL computer system (and, of course, help move it), stop on by! The two 960s are split into their three (each) cabinets, and roll very well. No problems. The Leibert also rolls pretty well, although it may have to wait another day due to the weight. The 830 has no wheels, but should be movable with my pallet jack. The Kato M-G set, the heavy bastard, is getting wheels (two souped up heavy duty furniture dollies). I actually think things will go pretty well, and if Saturday not all is done (weather or fatigue), I will have the truck Sunday as a freebie anyway. -- Will From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Tue Jan 12 15:55:24 2010 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 15:55:24 -0600 Subject: Fw: DEC PWS 500au looking for new home In-Reply-To: <277114.6990.qm@web31903.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <277114.6990.qm@web31903.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20100112215524.GA23602@RawFedDogs.net> I'd love to give it a home, but I'm in Texas. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes. Longum iter est per praecepta, breve et efficax per exempla!!! From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Jan 12 16:00:34 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 14:00:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <186891.93231.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 1/12/10, William Donzelli wrote: > > Definitely. And the last thing > we need is to have one of us get killed because a disk array > fell off a forklift or something. > > Hey, you thought it was cool as well. Hehe. Yes - it was quite cool. It was also amazing just how intact it stayed, despite the fall. Although, had I been under it, I might not have thought it was so cool. -Ian From nico at farumdata.dk Tue Jan 12 16:39:43 2010 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 23:39:43 +0100 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks References: <186891.93231.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mr Ian Primus" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 11:00 PM Subject: Re: Be careful handling computer racks > --- On Tue, 1/12/10, William Donzelli wrote: > >> > Definitely. And the last thing >> we need is to have one of us get killed because a disk array >> fell off a forklift or something. >> >> Hey, you thought it was cool as well. > > Hehe. Yes - it was quite cool. It was also amazing just how intact it > stayed, despite the fall. Although, had I been under it, I might not have > thought it was so cool. > Probably not, but the disk array would probably have been even more intact :-) Nico From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 12 16:47:26 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 14:47:26 -0800 Subject: HDD settings on i386 AWARD BIOS In-Reply-To: References: <20100111220740.GF24075@lug-owl.de> from "Jan-Benedict Glaw" at Jan 11, 10 11:07:40 pm, Message-ID: <4B4C8B7E.8268.121AD59@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Jan 2010 at 21:04, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > Of course, if this is an IDE or SCSI drive and controller, the=20 > > > controller should have its own BIOS to work in a setup like this. > > > If=20 it doesn't, you need to find one unless you're into BIOS > > > hacking. > > > > Uh? Had these multi-id controllers have their own BIOS extension? My > > I was wondering about that too. The IDE interface is essentially the > same at the I/O port level as the original PC/AT hard disk controller, > so it whould work with the standard motherboard BIOS. Which, if you'll re-read my message, is what I essentially said-- particularly the thing about "BIOS hacking". The issue here is that this Award BIOS apparently doesn't implement dynamic configuration of the drive table. Hence, BIOS "hacking" would be in order--or, preferably, a controller with a BIOS extension (they were numerous). But also, as I mentioned, many IDE drives implement a 17-sector translation mode by default, so one of the standard BIOS definitions could conceivably be used. The OP didn't mention if he had access to an EPROM burner or if he felt comfortable patching code. I assumed the he felt negatively about both questions. Another alternative is to completely replace the BIOS with say, an AMI one with user drive configurations. But the OP didn't state what chipset his system was using and with a 386SX vintage system, that could make a difference. --Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jan 12 17:22:22 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 15:22:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking for Altair 680 parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jan 2010, Marden P. Marshall wrote: > Hi All, > > I'm trying to piece together an Altair 680 and am looking for a > motherboard and display board, either for sale or trade. Either new or > replica would be fine. See http://www.altairkit.com/. Grant has complete replica kits of the 680 and 8800. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mardy at voysys.com Tue Jan 12 17:35:08 2010 From: mardy at voysys.com (Marden P. Marshall) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 18:35:08 -0500 Subject: Looking for Altair 680 parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jan 12, 2010, at 6:22 PM, David Griffith wrote: > On Tue, 12 Jan 2010, Marden P. Marshall wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> I'm trying to piece together an Altair 680 and am looking for a motherboard and display board, either for sale or trade. Either new or replica would be fine. > > See http://www.altairkit.com/. Grant has complete replica kits of the 680 and 8800. > True, but Grant himself has become almost as scarce as original Atairs. :-) From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Jan 12 19:34:45 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 20:34:45 -0500 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B4CE0F7.9050408@snarc.net> References: <4B4CCA9C.1080006@atarimuseum.com> <1215752239.10099841263324527944.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <418C6178-F7CE-4FED-A4CA-060DA55DAEBC@neurotica.com> <4B4CE0F7.9050408@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4B4D2335.4050902@gmail.com> Evan Koblentz wrote: > Curt wrote: >> Sridhar and I were moving a DEC cabinet up some stairs > > Will wrote: >> You should've seen Sridhar, me, and three building management guys >> loading a z890 a couple of months ago. OH MY GOD that machine is heavy. > > I'm beginning to think Sridhar isn't the best schlepper-helper. :) > > Curt and Will are big. Sridhar is my size, that is, built like a stick .... I'm stronger than I look, and I have a lot of experience with this sort of thing. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Jan 12 19:36:14 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 20:36:14 -0500 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <418C6178-F7CE-4FED-A4CA-060DA55DAEBC@neurotica.com> References: <4B4CCA9C.1080006@atarimuseum.com> <1215752239.10099841263324527944.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <418C6178-F7CE-4FED-A4CA-060DA55DAEBC@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B4D238E.1080408@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > You should've seen Sridhar, me, and three building management guys > loading a z890 a couple of months ago. OH MY GOD that machine is heavy. The canonical story I always use is the one where I caught the DECsystem 5810 when it fell on me. Not nearly as heavy as a z890, but still heavy enough to kill. Peace... Sridhar From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Jan 12 19:39:38 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 20:39:38 -0500 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B4CE041.9010200@tdh.com> References: <4B4CCA9C.1080006@atarimuseum.com> <4B4CE041.9010200@tdh.com> Message-ID: <4B4D245A.4020300@atarimuseum.com> Oh jeeez..... I did a lot of installs while at Exodus Communications for EMC gear, I remember doing a massive storage upgrade for Fortune City and it was 4 massive cabinets, fully populated... man if one those had ever tipped, it would crush a person like a bug on a windshield!!!! Curt Michael Lee wrote: > I have seen and felt, from one floor below, an fully populated EMC > Symmetrix cabinet fall on it's side. Someone, who shouldn't have > been, decided it needed to be moved, and rolled a wheel into a cutout > in the raised flooring, and down it went. Luckily the guy moving it > fell off to the side through an open tile, and the cabinet came down > on it's side breaking several floor tiles and dislodging/shattering > all the drop ceiling tiles nearby on the floor below. Had he fallen > under it, that would probably been the end of him. > > I also had an arcade cabinet fall on me before, not fun. First time > was trying to get one out of a Uhaul by myself, I was lowering it down > and the top heavy monitor just went tumbling over. Wasn't too bad, I > decided to just let go and get out of the way, and machine came to a > rest on it's front unharmed, and second was lowering it down a set of > stairs by myself, and it decided to just slide down the whole way > pushing me down the rest of the stairs along with it. > > > > On 1/12/2010 1:16 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> Sridhar and I were moving a DEC cabinet up some stairs behind my >> house a few years back and we all lost grip of it and it nearly took >> out Sridhar, yeah --- cab's are big and heavy!!! I also had an >> Asteroids upright arcade come down on my chest while loading it into >> a u-haul back in 2001, not fun I can tell you, hurt like h*ll >> >> >> >> Curt >> >> >> >> Simon Fryer wrote: >>> Man crushed to death by computer gear >>> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/12/2790875.htm >>> >>> Simon >>> > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 12 20:34:20 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 21:34:20 -0500 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B4D2335.4050902@gmail.com> References: <4B4CCA9C.1080006@atarimuseum.com> <1215752239.10099841263324527944.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <418C6178-F7CE-4FED-A4CA-060DA55DAEBC@neurotica.com> <4B4CE0F7.9050408@snarc.net> <4B4D2335.4050902@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5C089949-7790-4DF4-BAB1-555130E4C006@neurotica.com> On Jan 12, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> Sridhar and I were moving a DEC cabinet up some stairs >> >> Will wrote: >>> You should've seen Sridhar, me, and three building management guys >>> loading a z890 a couple of months ago. OH MY GOD that machine is >>> heavy. >> >> I'm beginning to think Sridhar isn't the best schlepper-helper. :) >> >> Curt and Will are big. Sridhar is my size, that is, built like a >> stick .... > > I'm stronger than I look, No you're not, my skinny little friend. ;) > and I have a lot of experience with this sort of thing. Now this part I have to agree with. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 12 22:56:44 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 20:56:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B4D2335.4050902@gmail.com> References: <4B4CCA9C.1080006@atarimuseum.com> <1215752239.10099841263324527944.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <418C6178-F7CE-4FED-A4CA-060DA55DAEBC@neurotica.com> <4B4CE0F7.9050408@snarc.net> <4B4D2335.4050902@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100112205548.S67357@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 12 Jan 2010, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I'm stronger than I look, and I have a lot of experience with this sort > of thing. If I ever need to move a 360, I want the guy with experience. From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Jan 12 23:31:34 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 21:31:34 -0800 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <20100112205548.S67357@shell.lmi.net> References: <4B4CCA9C.1080006@atarimuseum.com> <1215752239.10099841263324527944.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <418C6178-F7CE-4FED-A4CA-060DA55DAEBC@neurotica.com> <4B4CE0F7.9050408@snarc.net> <4B4D2335.4050902@gmail.com>,<20100112205548.S67357@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: I'd like to find a 360 to move. :-) ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin [cisin at xenosoft.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 8:56 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Be careful handling computer racks On Tue, 12 Jan 2010, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I'm stronger than I look, and I have a lot of experience with this sort > of thing. If I ever need to move a 360, I want the guy with experience. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 12 23:40:26 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 00:40:26 -0500 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: References: <4B4CCA9C.1080006@atarimuseum.com> <1215752239.10099841263324527944.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <418C6178-F7CE-4FED-A4CA-060DA55DAEBC@neurotica.com> <4B4CE0F7.9050408@snarc.net> <4B4D2335.4050902@gmail.com>, <20100112205548.S67357@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <9B336AC2-7549-4935-ACBA-9ADB16A1583A@neurotica.com> You and me both. If you decommission it, they will come! -Dave On Jan 13, 2010, at 12:31 AM, Ian King wrote: > I'd like to find a 360 to move. :-) > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Fred Cisin [cisin at xenosoft.com] > Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 8:56 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Be careful handling computer racks > > On Tue, 12 Jan 2010, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> I'm stronger than I look, and I have a lot of experience with this >> sort >> of thing. > > If I ever need to move a 360, I want the guy with experience. > > > > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Tue Jan 12 22:23:20 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 22:23:20 -0600 Subject: Tek 465/475 repair. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B4D4AB8.7030309@tx.rr.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> How difficult is it to repair a bad channel on a tek 465/475? It is >> starting to look like I=B9m only going to be able to afford a half-broken >> scope :( > > I don;t know how easy it is to get the components now (are there any > Tek-specific ICs?), but Tektronix published excellent manuals with > schematics, and you have aready-made refeernce circuit in the other > channel to compare agaainst. So finding the fault may not be too hard. > > -tony > I think this is a pretty good resource for Tek info and help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/TekScopes/ I joined it a few months ago (it's free) and found some pretty good pointers on repairing the sweep triggering of my 466. Somewhere(!) I have some URLs for places with an amazing amount of Tek parts. Please note that I've not bought anything from any of them - not yet anyway. I've no affiliation with any of them either. If there is a need, I'll be glad to search more diligently to try to find them again. Later, Charlie C. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Jan 13 01:48:41 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 08:48:41 +0100 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <833622.76410.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <833622.76410.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20100113074841.GA28938@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 01:29:51PM -0800, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > Hehe. When I brought my Vax 6210 into the basement, I disassembled it. Of course, that massive cabinet doesn't come apart, but the doors and top come off, the blowers and power supplies can be removed, and it can be made somewhat lighter and more manuverable. > > I've also moved another Vax 6000 by myself - loading it into the van on it's side, then getting it out and standing up on it's casters again. I must say, that's very difficult (and probably rather stupid) to do alone. > > -Ian My entry in this competition is when I moved my VAX 11/750 into my apartment. We were two people and had to move the machine up one flight of stairs. We removed blower, PSU and sides and put it on a hand truck. My friend took the handle bars and went first, and I pushed from below. It went very smoothly the first steps but then the stairs took a 90 degree turn it became impossible for me to put any force behind my pushing. Luckily for me my friend is related to the hulk and pulled the VAX _alone_ for the last four steps. I'm very glad he made it, because should he have lost grip, I would have had VAX on top of me. I also have an "anecdote" related to the original topic. In a metal factory where I used to work there was some big industrial machinery being moved. One part was weighing in at about a metric ton, and it too started slipping from a forklift. One of the workers stepped in and said "I got it". Well no one has ever "gotten" one metric ton. This guy was lucky, he only lost one arm. It is better to see a nice piece of equipment smashed than be smashed under it which is something I always try to remember. Cheers, Pontus. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Jan 13 03:45:08 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:45:08 +0100 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <140860.54453.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <140860.54453.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20100113104508.eeb616c2.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 12 Jan 2010 12:54:12 -0800 (PST) Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Even moving something one-person-liftable can be dangerous to your back. > I recently got a back brace for doing repeated lifting of heavy objects Two weeks ago I got a serve herniated vertebral disk when moving big piles of old computer magazines. It caused partial paralysis of my right leg. One day later I had some serious surgery. Fortunatelely the paralysis got better, but I still don't have full control back. Most likely the rest will take several months to heal. Full recreation is likely, but still questionable. All of this at an age of only 36 years. Once a friend got a big HP9000 H70 in a full height rack. When he unloaded it, it started to roll away because the rack was on casters. He didn't took this into account when planing unloading. The rack sliped and nearly fell on him. Once I got several nasty pyic inflammations on my hands through litle scratches in the skin. This was caused by working on an old MicroVAX filled with dust puppies. There must have been some nasty bacteria in the dirt inside the MicroVAX. Girls and boys: Be carefull with your body. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 13 11:58:43 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 09:58:43 -0800 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <20100113074841.GA28938@Update.UU.SE> References: , <833622.76410.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <20100113074841.GA28938@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4B4D9953.4414.CE94C@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Jan 2010 at 8:48, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > My entry in this competition is when I moved my VAX 11/750 into my > apartment. Your landlord allowed this? When we moved a VAX 11/750 into a commercial office building, we had to pay to have the floor (second floor offices) reinforced (a platform built over the existing floor) because of the loading specs. I don't know if it was strictly necessary (perhaps the number is a worst-case-fully-populated situation) but it wasn't inexpensive. The Santa Clara fire marshall specified that we also had to have a fire door installed on the machine room, not to mention a few Halon fire extinguishers. When we moved, of course, we had to pay to have all of that removed. --Chuck From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Wed Jan 13 12:09:01 2010 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:09:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B4D9953.4414.CE94C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Jan 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > My entry in this competition is when I moved my VAX 11/750 into my > > apartment. > > Your landlord allowed this? When we moved a VAX 11/750 into a > commercial office building, we had to pay to have the floor (second > floor offices) reinforced (a platform built over the existing floor) > because of the loading specs. I don't know if it was strictly > necessary (perhaps the number is a worst-case-fully-populated > situation) but it wasn't inexpensive. When I needed to find a place to put my SP2 frame I contacted my landlord (for the office in town I rent) and asked him about the floor loadings. He is a pretty nice guy (and, ok, my wife's uncle) and said the subfloor was concrete (even though I'm on the second floor) but it was only rated to about 500lbs/sqft. He then brought me a sheet of 3/4" ply which he put down in the middle of the floor for me - that I then placed the empty SP2 rack on, and slowly built the machine back up to its complete 2200lbs weight. I figure if it's good enough for him, it's good enough for me... I guess it's not what you know, but who you know, right? - JP From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 13 12:32:27 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 18:32:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <833622.76410.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> from "Mr Ian Primus" at Jan 12, 10 01:29:51 pm Message-ID: > Hehe. When I brought my Vax 6210 into the basement, I disassembled it. > Of course, that massive cabinet doesn't come apart, but the doors and > top come off, the blowers and power supplies can be removed, and it can > be made somewhat lighter and more manuve rable. I always dismantly large machines before trying to move them, both for my protection and (more importantly) their's.. As you said, PSUs often come out quite easily, and are significantly heavy, particularly linear ones. It's suprising how heavy the PCBs in a full cardcage are. On their own, each board is light, but when you have 30 or so, it adds up. I often pull all the boards. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 13 12:57:16 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 18:57:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <20100113074841.GA28938@Update.UU.SE> from "Pontus Pihlgren" at Jan 13, 10 08:48:41 am Message-ID: > lucky, he only lost one arm. It is better to see a nice piece of > equipment smashed than be smashed under it which is something I always > try to remember. I am not at all convincced about that. People have a wonderful self-repair system, classic computers tend not to. I'd rather suffer a major injory than loose an irreplaceable classic computer... And I always remember there are many more good hardware hackers (with more being created all the time) than there are of some of the machines we work on (with no more ever going to be produced). -tony From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Wed Jan 13 15:20:49 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 13:20:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <864692.91863.qm@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I sure as hell wouldn't. A crushing internal injury is not always repairable, and I'm not about to lose a limb like this guy did for some old dinosaur. ________________________________ From: Tony Duell To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Wed, January 13, 2010 12:57:16 PM Subject: Re: Be careful handling computer racks > lucky, he only lost one arm. It is better to see a nice piece of > equipment smashed than be smashed under it which is something I always > try to remember. I am not at all convincced about that. People have a wonderful self-repair system, classic computers tend not to. I'd rather suffer a major injory than loose an irreplaceable classic computer... And I always remember there are many more good hardware hackers (with more being created all the time) than there are of some of the machines we work on (with no more ever going to be produced). -tony From evan at snarc.net Wed Jan 13 15:31:58 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 16:31:58 -0500 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net> --------------------------------------------- >> lucky, he only lost one arm. It is better to see a nice piece of >> equipment smashed than be smashed under it which is something I always >> try to remember. >> > I am not at all convincced about that. Yeah really! PERSPECTIVE is very important in a hobby like ours. I've seen people get divorced over technical collections; I know one person who committed suicide (he was a slide rule collector -- it ate up his home and caused endless tension with his wife.) How far would I go for an extremely rare / old / valuable computer? Pretty far, but not if it would bankrupt me, cause me to lose my job, or cost me a spouse .... and certainly not if it required major bodily harm!!! Hopefully the previous responder was only joking. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 13 15:46:22 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 13:46:22 -0800 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net> References: , <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4B4DCEAE.6336.DD5495@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Jan 2010 at 16:31, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Hopefully the previous responder was only joking. No kidding! Forget the iron, keep the paper. If you *had* to reconstruct one of these beasts, at least you'd have some reference material. --Chuck From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Jan 13 15:57:13 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 15:57:13 -0600 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net> References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net> Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 3:31 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Yeah really! ?PERSPECTIVE is very important in a hobby like ours. ?I've seen > people get divorced over technical collections; I know one person who > committed suicide (he was a slide rule collector -- it ate up his home and > caused endless tension with his wife.) > > How far would I go for an extremely rare / old / valuable computer? ?Pretty > far, but not if it would bankrupt me, cause me to lose my job, or cost me a > spouse .... and certainly not if it required major bodily harm!!! > > Hopefully the previous responder was only joking. (I know this is getting way off topic. And my reply is likely to irritate some people. But I think perspective is important also) My wife is a frequent reader of a yahoo internet support group for wives of men with asperger's syndrome. The Tony Attwood book says that about 85% of AS men have a "special interest". Generally, but not always, this takes the form of collections of things of a technical nature. There are husbands (married to the wives) on that group who collect old televisions, washing machines, vacuum cleaners, lawnmowers, and yes even old computers. One man has a washing machine collection that overflowed onto the front porch causing nasty letters from the home owner's association and much embarrassment for the wife. Whether you believe that you have AS or not is sort of irrelevant. Please recognize that this hobby isn't exactly normal, and has a good chance of irritating a wife or girlfriend. If your collection is overflowing into the rest of the house or overflowing the finances (guilty), marriage and family or even a rudimentary social life are more important than our hobby, even if it feels otherwise. Believe me, it's not worth getting divorced over a computer collection. I bet there was more to the divorces you've seen than the technical collections. brian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 13 16:26:20 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 22:26:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B4DCEAE.6336.DD5495@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 13, 10 01:46:22 pm Message-ID: > > On 13 Jan 2010 at 16:31, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > > Hopefully the previous responder was only joking. I was not joking. I am deadly serious. > > No kidding! Forget the iron, keep the paper. If you *had* to > reconstruct one of these beasts, at least you'd have some reference > material. I am not convinced about that either.... Even though I collect just about every service manual I can get my hands on, and know the value of good docuemntatinon, I am not convinced it's easier to make the machine f rom the schematics than the scheamtics from the machine. I've traced out schematics of all sorts of devices over the years. For a moderately complex macjhine, using nothing more than pen, paper, multimeter and a good pile of databooks, it takes me a couple of weeks normally. Given the official schematics and programming data for ROMs, etc, it would tkae me a lot longer than that to reconstruct the machine. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 13 16:32:19 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 22:32:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com> from "Brian Lanning" at Jan 13, 10 03:57:13 pm Message-ID: > Whether you believe that you have AS or not is sort of irrelevant. > Please recognize that this hobby isn't exactly normal, and has a good FWIW, I have no desire whatsover to be 'normal'. > chance of irritating a wife or girlfriend. If your collection is > overflowing into the rest of the house or overflowing the finances > (guilty), marriage and family or even a rudimentary social life are > more important than our hobby, even if it feels otherwise. Believe I don;'t have a wife (spending my time with on the lathe or with a soldering irn probably has something to do with that...), I have no desire to have what you call a 'social life' if it's what I think it means. Put it this way, I've met many more _true_ freinds through my eccentric interests than most people seem to have. > me, it's not worth getting divorced over a computer collection. -tony From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Wed Jan 13 16:40:42 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:40:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net> <6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <946526.6048.qm@web83914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> +1... computers can be a fun hobby... but they won't love you back or take care of you in your old age. ________________________________ From: Brian Lanning To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wed, January 13, 2010 3:57:13 PM Subject: Re: Be careful handling computer racks On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 3:31 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Yeah really! PERSPECTIVE is very important in a hobby like ours. I've seen > people get divorced over technical collections; I know one person who > committed suicide (he was a slide rule collector -- it ate up his home and > caused endless tension with his wife.) > > How far would I go for an extremely rare / old / valuable computer? Pretty > far, but not if it would bankrupt me, cause me to lose my job, or cost me a > spouse .... and certainly not if it required major bodily harm!!! > > Hopefully the previous responder was only joking. (I know this is getting way off topic. And my reply is likely to irritate some people. But I think perspective is important also) My wife is a frequent reader of a yahoo internet support group for wives of men with asperger's syndrome. The Tony Attwood book says that about 85% of AS men have a "special interest". Generally, but not always, this takes the form of collections of things of a technical nature. There are husbands (married to the wives) on that group who collect old televisions, washing machines, vacuum cleaners, lawnmowers, and yes even old computers. One man has a washing machine collection that overflowed onto the front porch causing nasty letters from the home owner's association and much embarrassment for the wife. Whether you believe that you have AS or not is sort of irrelevant. Please recognize that this hobby isn't exactly normal, and has a good chance of irritating a wife or girlfriend. If your collection is overflowing into the rest of the house or overflowing the finances (guilty), marriage and family or even a rudimentary social life are more important than our hobby, even if it feels otherwise. Believe me, it's not worth getting divorced over a computer collection. I bet there was more to the divorces you've seen than the technical collections. brian From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 13 16:58:34 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:58:34 -0800 Subject: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com> References: , <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net>, <6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Jan 2010 at 15:57, Brian Lanning wrote: > Whether you believe that you have AS or not is sort of irrelevant. > Please recognize that this hobby isn't exactly normal, and has a good > chance of irritating a wife or girlfriend. If your collection is > overflowing into the rest of the house or overflowing the finances > (guilty), marriage and family or even a rudimentary social life are > more important than our hobby, even if it feels otherwise. Believe > me, it's not worth getting divorced over a computer collection. My wife recounts the tale of a friend who collected model airplane engines--and his collection was close to encyclopedic. When he suddenly died, other collectors mobbed his widow, looking for bargains. It so irritated and overwhelmed her that she had the whole collection carted off to the dump. Collectables are worth something only to other collectors of a like mind. And many non-collectors do not understand that mind. At the end of the day, it's just stuff. Be sure to pass it on to others before your personal "use by" date has expired or that you have some framework in place to dispose of it quickly. Your widow will bless your memory. Best regards, Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 13 17:09:54 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 18:09:54 -0500 Subject: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net> <6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com> <4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > My wife recounts the tale of a friend who collected model airplane > engines--and his collection was close to encyclopedic. ?When he > suddenly died, other collectors mobbed his widow, looking for > bargains. ?It so irritated and overwhelmed her that she had the whole > At the end of the day, it's just stuff. ?Be sure to pass it on to > others before your personal "use by" date has expired or that you > have some framework in place to dispose of it quickly. ?Your widow > will bless your memory. Widow? There are...nevermind, I better not... What will not bless your memory is the dumpster you die in, after your weird OCD (Diogenes, I think?) has taken over your life, draining your money and your inheritance, scared away your friends and relatives, and left you homeless. I have been in the collecting business long enough to have seen this happen to people. And it scared me enough some years back to choke off an uncontrolled collection I had. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 13 17:17:17 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 18:17:17 -0500 Subject: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net> <6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com> <4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > At the end of the day, it's just stuff. ?Be sure to pass it on to > others before your personal "use by" date has expired or that you > have some framework in place to dispose of it quickly. A question I have asked on this list at least a couple of times, but have not asked in at least five years: How many serious collectors here have a will in place that takes care of their collection? Previous years have been zero - lets see if we can get at least three? A detailed note in your wife's or kid's or friends' possession DOES NOT COUNT. Why? Because that plan fails far too often. WAY too often. Real wills only, please. Everything else will be ignored. Answer on or off list, please. -- Will From brain at jbrain.com Wed Jan 13 18:33:45 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 18:33:45 -0600 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B4E6669.8010107@jbrain.com> On 1/13/2010 12:57 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > I am not at all convincced about that. People have a wonderful > self-repair system, classic computers tend not to. I'd rather suffer a > major injory than loose an irreplaceable classic computer... > > And I always remember there are many more good hardware hackers (with > more being created all the time) than there are of some of the machines > we work on (with no more ever going to be produced). > > -tony > Wow! This gives me a new persepctive on Tony. Like the rugged men who tame the impossible, who start journeys where the likelihood of return is negligible, like those who are branded fearless or foolish, but never undecided, there stands Tony Duell, EXTREME Computer Collector! Of course, the Search for the Holy Grail's Black Knight comes to mind as well ("Tis but a flesh wound!"), but I digress. Whether one agrees or not, one has to admire the seriousness and decisiveness. However, I'll remind myself to steer clear of any requests from Tony to help move/rescue large computer equipment. I'm most assuredly not that extreme. Jim, could maybe get a hernia from moving his PETs, Brain -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Jan 13 19:06:40 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 19:06:40 -0600 Subject: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net> <6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com> <4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001131706k256ab890h147afb45c28e8bb0@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 5:17 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > A detailed note in your wife's or kid's or friends' possession DOES > NOT COUNT. Why? Because that plan fails far too often. WAY too often. One of the guys from the woodworking group has a sig that reads, "My biggest fear is that when I die, my wife will sell all my tools for what I told her I paid for them." lol brian From vrs at msn.com Wed Jan 13 19:30:29 2010 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 17:30:29 -0800 Subject: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net><6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com><4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > A question I have asked on this list at least a couple of times, > but have not asked in at least five years: > > How many serious collectors here have a will in place that takes > care of their collection? > > Previous years have been zero - lets see if we can get at least three? I do. > A detailed note in your wife's or kid's or friends' possession > DOES NOT COUNT. Why? Because that plan fails far too often. WAY > too often. > > Real wills only, please. Everything else will be ignored. I don't see whether it's a "real will" as mattering that much. Just this year, two of the three folks mentioned in my will made noises about giving up (selling off) their collections, and the third publicly stated a lack of interest in acquiring more machines. So I suspect that if (when) I die suddenly, my wife will have just as hard a time getting rid of the machines as if I had just given her a not-quite-as-legal document telling her what I wanted done. There's still a real disconnect between plan and implementation, especially a few years down the road. Better to have some kind of plan than none, though. Vince From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Jan 13 20:43:36 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 18:43:36 -0800 Subject: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net><6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com><4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> , Message-ID: The other risk is: maybe it's not your spouse taking care of this task. Since we're already into the depressing subject: what if you and your spouse are both killed in an accident? If you have a well-written will that states your intentions, it's hard to override. But if your wishes are being carried around in his/her head... it may be a family member who never "got it" or even a completely clueless bureaucrat who disposes of your priceless collection. What my wife has asked for - as alluded to in that woodworker's sig :-) - is an inventory with approximate values, Just In Case. I told her it won't be enough to keep her in style, so I'm not worth killing off. And to answer the original question: disposition of my collection is not expressly set forth in my will. Hm, I think I talked myself into amending it.... -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vincent Slyngstad [vrs at msn.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 5:30 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks > A question I have asked on this list at least a couple of times, > but have not asked in at least five years: > > How many serious collectors here have a will in place that takes > care of their collection? > > Previous years have been zero - lets see if we can get at least three? I do. > A detailed note in your wife's or kid's or friends' possession > DOES NOT COUNT. Why? Because that plan fails far too often. WAY > too often. > > Real wills only, please. Everything else will be ignored. I don't see whether it's a "real will" as mattering that much. Just this year, two of the three folks mentioned in my will made noises about giving up (selling off) their collections, and the third publicly stated a lack of interest in acquiring more machines. So I suspect that if (when) I die suddenly, my wife will have just as hard a time getting rid of the machines as if I had just given her a not-quite-as-legal document telling her what I wanted done. There's still a real disconnect between plan and implementation, especially a few years down the road. Better to have some kind of plan than none, though. Vince From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Jan 13 20:52:55 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 21:52:55 -0500 Subject: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net><6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com><4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> , Message-ID: <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> >Ian King wrote: >The other risk is: maybe it's not your spouse taking care of this task. Since we're already into the depressing subject: what if you and your spouse are both killed in an accident? If you have a well-written will that states your intentions, it's hard to override. But if your wishes are being carried around in his/her head... it may be a family member who never "got it" or even a completely clueless bureaucrat who disposes of your priceless collection. > >What my wife has asked for - as alluded to in that woodworker's sig :-) - is an inventory with approximate values, Just In Case. I told her it won't be enough to keep her in style, so I'm not worth killing off. > Have any of you actually tried to dispose of your collections NOW? If you can't dispose of you collection yourself, how do you expect anyone else to do so? I have a reasonable collection of Qbus PDP-11 systems, but there no longer seems to be any interest, especially in the RL01 / RL02 drives and packs. I am in Toronto. Within 6 months, I must dispose of this stuff or it will have to go to the dumpter. Is anyone interested? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 13 20:55:31 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 21:55:31 -0500 Subject: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net> <6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com> <4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > I don't see whether it's a "real will" as mattering that much. Oh, yes, BIG difference. Wills tend to be treated with respect, ending up in safety deposit boxes or on file with lawyers or some other important entities. Plain instructional notes tend to get stuffed into junk drawers. > Just this year, two of the three folks mentioned in my will made noises > about giving up (selling off) their collections, and the third publicly > stated a lack of interest in acquiring more machines. The point is not to actually give away the collection, but to appoint someone to give it away (or sell it). There is far more flexibility that way, and if things really go wrong, with maybe the person you appointed vanishing or dying first, then the courts will appoint someone when it goes thru the probate system. > Better to have some kind of plan than none, though. A properly documented plan, even if bare bones. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 13 20:58:04 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 21:58:04 -0500 Subject: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net> <6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com> <4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> Message-ID: > Have any of you actually tried to dispose of your collections NOW? > If you can't dispose of you collection yourself, how do you expect > anyone else to do so? Estate lawyers have PLENTY of experience finding someone to handle the sales of collections - even weird ones. Fourteen seconds of Googling will open the door to many possibilities. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 13 21:00:58 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 22:00:58 -0500 Subject: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net> <6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com> <4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > The other risk is: maybe it's not your spouse taking care of this task. ?Since we're already into the depressing subject: what if you and your spouse are both killed in an accident? If a will is involved, and bad things happen to the executor, the courts can basically assign a new one. -- Will From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Jan 13 21:31:35 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 22:31:35 -0500 Subject: [SPAM] - Re: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks - Bayesian Filter detected spam In-Reply-To: References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net><6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com><4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com><4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4B4E9017.5040600@compsys.to> >William Donzelli wrote: >>Have any of you actually tried to dispose of your collections NOW? >>If you can't dispose of you collection yourself, how do you expect >>anyone else to do so? >> >> > >Estate lawyers have PLENTY of experience finding someone to handle the >sales of collections - even weird ones. Fourteen seconds of Googling >will open the door to many possibilities. > The collection probably fills a tightly packed 10' x 20' room (right now it is spread over 5 rooms. From my point of view, the software is the most important, although that fits on no more than a few DVDs and CDs, as well as an on-line copy that should certainly fit on the 1 TB drive in the PC - I run RT-11 under Ersatz-11 these days. Alas, no one seems interested in enhancements or fixing bugs in RT-11 and TSX-PLUS. I am losing interest in Y3K. Also a Logical Name Handler for RT-11, LN(X).SYS, which would be similar to the VMS Logical Name Search List. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 13 21:51:41 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 22:51:41 -0500 Subject: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net><6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com><4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> , <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Jan 13, 2010, at 9:52 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> The other risk is: maybe it's not your spouse taking care of this >> task. Since we're already into the depressing subject: what if >> you and your spouse are both killed in an accident? If you have a >> well-written will that states your intentions, it's hard to >> override. But if your wishes are being carried around in his/her >> head... it may be a family member who never "got it" or even a >> completely clueless bureaucrat who disposes of your priceless >> collection. >> What my wife has asked for - as alluded to in that woodworker's >> sig :-) - is an inventory with approximate values, Just In Case. >> I told her it won't be enough to keep her in style, so I'm not >> worth killing off. >> > Have any of you actually tried to dispose of your collections NOW? > If you can't dispose of you collection yourself, how do you expect > anyone else to do so? > > I have a reasonable collection of Qbus PDP-11 systems, but there no > longer seems to be any interest, especially in the RL01 / RL02 drives > and packs. > > I am in Toronto. Within 6 months, I must dispose of this stuff or > it will have to go to the dumpter. Is anyone interested? I'm interested. I drove hundreds of miles for an RL02 drive not long ago. Toronto, however...I'd not want to do that drive! My point is, don't just *assume* nobody wants them. I know several people who are looking for RL drives right now. They don't exactly grow on trees...dumpstering them would be a crime. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Jan 13 22:00:40 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 23:00:40 -0500 Subject: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net><6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com><4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> , <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> Message-ID: <8FB0E853FFB9497B9D67116E3F0E4A3E@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 10:51 PM Subject: Re: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks > On Jan 13, 2010, at 9:52 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I'm interested. I drove hundreds of miles for an RL02 drive not long > ago. Toronto, however...I'd not want to do that drive! > > My point is, don't just *assume* nobody wants them. I know several > people who are looking for RL drives right now. They don't exactly grow > on trees...dumpstering them would be a crime. > > -Dave >> I think the people with a small collection of large machines have an easier time disposing of collections then somebody like me with 1000's of smaller items. Would probably take a year or two of shipping a dozen items a week to get rid of it (asuming you sold it). I can see why people just junk it all to not have to deal with it, even if the stuff is worth money. From brain at jbrain.com Wed Jan 13 22:12:02 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 22:12:02 -0600 Subject: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net><6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com><4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> , <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4B4E9992.5090804@jbrain.com> On 1/13/2010 9:51 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> I am in Toronto. Within 6 months, I must dispose of this stuff or >> it will have to go to the dumpter. Is anyone interested? I have 0 interest in RL drives (not my collecting variant). However, I will drive to Toronto to keep them from the dumpster if someone in the US wants them and exhausts all the possibilities to get them. Jim From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 13 22:18:51 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 23:18:51 -0500 Subject: [SPAM] - Re: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks - Bayesian Filter detected spam In-Reply-To: <4B4E9017.5040600@compsys.to> References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net><6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com><4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com><4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> <4B4E9017.5040600@compsys.to> Message-ID: <539FCAE3-3374-4547-8368-6D3E4CEF76BC@neurotica.com> On Jan 13, 2010, at 10:31 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Alas, no one seems interested in enhancements or fixing bugs in > RT-11 and TSX-PLUS. > I am losing interest in Y3K. Also a Logical Name Handler for > RT-11, LN(X).SYS, which > would be similar to the VMS Logical Name Search List. Y3K...not this lifetime's problem. The logical name handler, though...I'd run that. What a neat idea! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From doug at stillhq.com Wed Jan 13 22:53:04 2010 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 15:53:04 +1100 Subject: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B4E9992.5090804@jbrain.com> References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net><6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com><4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> , <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> <4B4E9992.5090804@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4B4EA330.9020805@stillhq.com> I have significantly >0 interest in anything that will make either my PDP11/04 or PDP11/34 happier :-) But - sadly being in Australia (Canberra) means that there are very very few oportunities to obtain anything. I do have a set of disk packs that may (or may not) have operating sytems on them :-) - Just need to fault find the RL01 drives I have to make them work again - in my copious spare time. At least I am blessed with a wonderful wife who is aware of my need to collect shiny things of all sizes, and hide them im my cave. And she is even happy to help build a carport for the car so it can live out of the rain :-) Doug Jim Brain wrote: > On 1/13/2010 9:51 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> >>> I am in Toronto. Within 6 months, I must dispose of this stuff or >>> it will have to go to the dumpter. Is anyone interested? > I have 0 interest in RL drives (not my collecting variant). However, > I will drive to Toronto to keep them from the dumpster if someone in > the US wants them and exhausts all the possibilities to get them. > > Jim From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 14 00:04:39 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 23:04:39 -0700 Subject: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net><6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com><4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> , <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4B4EB3F7.5020607@jetnet.ab.ca> Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I am in Toronto. Within 6 months, I must dispose of this stuff or > it will have to go to the dumpter. Is anyone interested? What have you sell, that can be shipped and in *small packages*? Let me know now, and I can plan to scrape up cash. What I allways wanted was a Heath 11, or something that has a OS, 32KB of memory a PDP 11 cpu and working media bigger than mini-floppy size. > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine > PS. Can one still find quality 8" DS/DD floppies around? Ben. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Jan 14 00:21:18 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 07:21:18 +0100 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: References: <20100113074841.GA28938@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20100114072118.40d94091.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 13 Jan 2010 18:57:16 +0000 (GMT) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > I am not at all convincced about that. People have a wonderful > self-repair system, classic computers tend not to. I'd rather suffer a > major injory than loose an irreplaceable classic computer... Tony. This self-repair system can't repair everything. If you lost a limb, or if you got blinded, it will be for ever. You will not be able to work on classic computers without hands or eyesight. No computer is it worth to loose essential functions of your body! Remember: I lost essential functions of my body due to working on classic computers. (Lifting heavy things the wrong way. Sitting in the wrong position, or better slouching instead of sitting, endless houres in front of my desk.) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Jan 14 00:39:23 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 04:39:23 -0200 Subject: [SPAM] - Re: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks- Bayesian Filter detected spam References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net><6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com><4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com><4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> <4B4E9017.5040600@compsys.to> Message-ID: <79c101ca94e4$7897d070$0101a8c0@Alexandre> > over 5 rooms. From my point of view, the software is the most important, > although > that fits on no more than a few DVDs and CDs, as well as an on-line copy > that should > certainly fit on the 1 TB drive in the PC - I run RT-11 under Ersatz-11 > these days. That is why I have multiple copies of my website spread around with friends, and usually rip interesting (but of dubious future) sites. If the worse happens, the knowledge goes on. From halarewich at gmail.com Thu Jan 14 01:16:26 2010 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 23:16:26 -0800 Subject: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B4EB3F7.5020607@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net> <6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com> <4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> <4B4EB3F7.5020607@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <6d6501091001132316k7711d915o426f7d6b061cad9c@mail.gmail.com> PS. Can one still find quality 8" DS/DD floppies around? Ben. just found this dont know the seller but seems like a fair price http://cgi.ebay.com/MEMOREX-SSDD-8-Flexible-Floppy-Disks-10x-8-inch-NEW_W0QQitemZ310192895985QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Computing_ComputerComponents_BlankCDsDVDs?hash=item4838eff7f1 $8.08 for a box of 10 sealed new disks + bout $10 shipping From sethm at loomcom.com Thu Jan 14 01:58:54 2010 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 23:58:54 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Another possible round of partial SBC6120 & FP6120 Kits! Message-ID: <4B4ECEBE.7030008@loomcom.com> Hey folks, I'm forwarding this message from the Spartime Gizmos mailing list because I think there may be some interest here. Steve Gibson is trying to assess interest in doing another run of Sparetime Gizmos' PDP-8 clone, the SBC6120. This is a big job. The kit would include all the custom parts for both the SBC6120 single board computer and the (excellent, IMHO) FP6120 front panel kit. If you missed out on the last round of this kit, now would be a very good time to express interest in getting another run done. Read the message below for details and the URL where you can register. -Seth -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [sparetimegizmos] Another possible round of partial SBC6120 & FP6120 Kits! Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:23:02 -0800 From: Steve Gibson Reply-To: sparetimegizmos at yahoogroups.com To: sparetimegizmos at yahoogroups.com References: Everyone... I have been coordinating with Bob Armstrong about the possibility of another round of combined SBC6120/FP6120 kits. If sufficient interest can be generated -- at least 50 purchasers -- Bob has agreed to produce another round of kits containing all of the special, custom & programmed bits required to assemble the combination of an SBC6120 and FP6120. My web site's tribute to the PDP-8 consists of eight pages, the last one of which explains the details of the kits and provides a web-form for allowing interested people to declare their interest. A few minutes ago I announced the existence of the kits during my weekly Security Now podcast recording. The podcast goes live tomorrow (Thursday), when we'll have an audience of about 80,000. But a few thousand listeners watch the recording live ... and we immediately received several declarations of interest. If anyone here in this group was wishing they were able to obtain additional kit(s), I'm quite hopeful that there might be enough interest remaining for us to squeeze out another round. Here's the page... http://www.grc.com/pdp-8/yourown-sbc.htm And if by some chance you are not familiar with these terrific kits, other pages in that area, linked at the bottom of that page, contain videos to give you a good idea of the final product. :) Steve Gibson. From nico at farumdata.dk Thu Jan 14 01:58:44 2010 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 08:58:44 +0100 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net> <6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Lanning" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 10:57 PM Subject: Re: Be careful handling computer racks On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 3:31 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Yeah really! PERSPECTIVE is very important in a hobby like ours. I've seen > people get divorced over technical collections; I know one person who > committed suicide (he was a slide rule collector -- it ate up his home and > caused endless tension with his wife.) > Some time ago, there was a documentary on danish TV, telling about "the VALO man". Thus guy has a phenomenal memory for records (as LP, Cd, ....), and collects VALO packages. And what is VALO ? Boxes in which soap for washing clothes is sold. He can tell from the top of his had when a packages was made, based on color grading, character fonts, ... He has about (IIRC) 200 different packages Nico From nico at farumdata.dk Thu Jan 14 02:26:05 2010 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 09:26:05 +0100 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net> <6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <27558D3E0C9541DFA8F5712E4656950A@udvikling> I found a link to "the VALO man" : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6tXOY8154s&feature=related Danish is spoken. Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nico de Jong" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 8:58 AM Subject: Re: Be careful handling computer racks > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brian Lanning" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 10:57 PM > Subject: Re: Be careful handling computer racks > > > On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 3:31 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> Yeah really! PERSPECTIVE is very important in a hobby like ours. I've >> seen >> people get divorced over technical collections; I know one person who >> committed suicide (he was a slide rule collector -- it ate up his home >> and >> caused endless tension with his wife.) >> > Some time ago, there was a documentary on danish TV, telling about "the > VALO man". Thus guy has a phenomenal memory for records (as LP, Cd, ....), > and collects VALO packages. And what is VALO ? Boxes in which soap for > washing clothes is sold. He can tell from the top of his had when a > packages was made, based on color grading, character fonts, ... He has > about (IIRC) 200 different packages > > Nico > From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Jan 14 08:00:54 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 15:00:54 +0100 Subject: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net> <6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com> <4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100114150054.ba1e316d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 13 Jan 2010 21:55:31 -0500 William Donzelli wrote: > The point is not to actually give away the collection, but to appoint > someone to give it away (or sell it). That's it. A few years back a friend of mine died. He had quite some PeeCees, VAXen, PDP11s, Alphas, ... and some random "computer gear". His family was lost in all this stuff. They had enough work to care about the normal things like clothes, furniture, domestic appliances, ... They didn't know what to do with all this "computers". Some friends of the deceased person jumped in and liquidated all that computer stuff for the family. We took everything away, "soled" some it to our self or soled it on ebay. We returned the money to the family to cover part of the furneral costs. The family was very glad and thankfull to have this help. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From feldman.r at comcast.net Thu Jan 14 08:33:43 2010 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 14:33:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks Message-ID: <1207200462.10077911263479623453.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Remembering the fate of Don Maslin's OS disk collection is relevant here. Bob >Message: 11 >Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:58:34 -0800 >From: "Chuck Guzis" < cclist at sydex.com > >Subject: Re: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks >My wife recounts the tale of a friend who collected model airplane >engines--and his collection was close to encyclopedic. ?When he >suddenly died, other collectors mobbed his widow, looking for >bargains. ?It so irritated and overwhelmed her that she had the whole >collection carted off to the dump. ? > >Collectables are worth something only to other collectors of a like >mind. ?And many non-collectors do not understand that mind. > >At the end of the day, it's just stuff. ?Be sure to pass it on to >others before your personal "use by" date has expired or that you ? >have some framework in place to dispose of it quickly. ?Your widow >will bless your memory. > >Best regards, >Chuck From rborsuk at colourfull.com Thu Jan 14 08:39:19 2010 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 09:39:19 -0500 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <27558D3E0C9541DFA8F5712E4656950A@udvikling> References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net> <6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com> <27558D3E0C9541DFA8F5712E4656950A@udvikling> Message-ID: <47250E54-ADAA-4D22-8182-C76A59C6B0D2@colourfull.com> I just wanted to chime in on this with a quick story. The same day some one posted this, I was moving my professional Iris off the top of a half height rack, and I had small accident. The computer shifted too quick and crushed my hand against the side of the rack on it's way down. No broken bones but my hand swelled the other day. Seems okay today, just a bit stiff. The only person with me was my wife. If something really bad had happened she probably couldn't have helped. A couple of lessons learned: 1. I'm not 20 anymore (my mind is willing, my body is not). 2. Make sure my sons are around when moving heavy items from high spots to low spots. Be safe and have fun collecting. Rob Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Jan 14 08:57:51 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 09:57:51 -0500 Subject: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B4EB3F7.5020607@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net><6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com><4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> , <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> <4B4EB3F7.5020607@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4B4F30EF.7020906@compsys.to> >Ben wrote: > >Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >> I am in Toronto. Within 6 months, I must dispose of this stuff or >> it will have to go to the dumpter. Is anyone interested? > > What have you sell, that can be shipped and in *small packages*? > Let me know now, and I can plan to scrape up cash. What I allways > wanted was a Heath 11, or something that has a OS, 32KB of memory > a PDP 11 cpu and working media bigger than mini-floppy size. I would suggest that you aim a bit higher at a BA23 box since they are probably just as available as a PDP-11/03 as far as the backplane is concerned. MegaByte memory should also be available, so the minimum CPU would be a PDP-11/23. V05.00 of RT-11 supports the use of the full 4 MegaBytes of the memory and is available. SCSI hard disk drives are relatively rare, but probably inexpensive. The older drives of less than 10 GB are no longer seen very often. However, I have a number of (very?) noisy 2 GB drives I rarely use. The host adapters are still expensive. The alternatives are ESDI or MFM drives. ESDI controllers may be less available. The RQDXn controllers from DEC should be more available. Since you are mostly a hardware person (if you want a Heath 11), what do you actually do with a computer after you have it running? I ask that since I am a software person. There seems to be an endless supply of software challenges once the hardware is working. > Can one still find quality 8" DS/DD floppies around? 8" DS/DD floppies are probably rare. HOWEVER, before I found a supply, it was possible to punch the additional index holes in the cardboard jacket to enable DS use. The media are identical as far as I could ever tell. You may want to cover over the SS index hole. I probably have a few 8" DS/DD floppy media, but they have software on them. Which 8" DS/DD drive do you use? The DSD 880/30 combination was the only drive that I ever used that was 8" DS/DD. Also, which operating system? In RT-11, the DY.SYS device driver works very well. BUT the DYX.SYS device driver supports ONLY an 18 bit address, so the user buffer MUST be below 1/4 MegaByte in the extended memory for the DEC release. Since all of the DEC utility programs avoid the use of extended memory, a user buffer above 1/4 MegaByte is a problem only if VBGEXE is being used with a DEC utility program. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Jan 14 09:03:58 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 10:03:58 -0500 Subject: Lack of Posts on alt.sys.pdp11 and vmsnet.pdp-11 Message-ID: <4B4F325E.4050207@compsys.to> I normally watch theses two newsgroups. However, the last post on vmsnet.pdp-11 seems to have been on September 27th, 2009. Even for this low frequency group, that seems like a long time. For alt.sys.pdp11, the last post was on January 4th, 2010. Since there is usually a post every few days, this is also a long time. Has anyone seen any more recent posts? Perhaps the newsgroups server I use is not passing the posts along. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From blkline at attglobal.net Thu Jan 14 09:27:55 2010 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 10:27:55 -0500 Subject: Lack of Posts on alt.sys.pdp11 and vmsnet.pdp-11 In-Reply-To: <4B4F325E.4050207@compsys.to> References: <4B4F325E.4050207@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4B4F37FB.3090406@attglobal.net> Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Has anyone seen any more recent posts? Perhaps the > newsgroups server I use is not passing the posts along. > Hi Jerome. The latest I have is 1/4/2010, on alt.sys.pdp11. On vmsnet.pdp-11 the newest is 9/27/2009. Barry -- From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jan 14 10:04:24 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 08:04:24 -0800 Subject: Lack of Posts on alt.sys.pdp11 and vmsnet.pdp-11 In-Reply-To: <4B4F37FB.3090406@attglobal.net> References: <4B4F325E.4050207@compsys.to> <4B4F37FB.3090406@attglobal.net> Message-ID: At 10:27 AM -0500 1/14/10, Barry L. Kline wrote: >Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >> Has anyone seen any more recent posts? Perhaps the > > newsgroups server I use is not passing the posts along. > >Hi Jerome. > >The latest I have is 1/4/2010, on alt.sys.pdp11. > >On vmsnet.pdp-11 the newest is 9/27/2009. Also the vmsnet.* hierarchy is one of the ones that is likely to be skipped by USENET providers. For a long time I didn't have access, and I honestly can't remember if I do right now or not. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jan 14 10:07:35 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 08:07:35 -0800 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <47250E54-ADAA-4D22-8182-C76A59C6B0D2@colourfull.com> References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net> <6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com> <27558D3E0C9541DFA8F5712E4656950A@udvikling> <47250E54-ADAA-4D22-8182-C76A59C6B0D2@colourfull.com> Message-ID: At 9:39 AM -0500 1/14/10, Robert Borsuk wrote: >I just wanted to chime in on this with a quick story. The same day >some one posted this, I was moving my professional Iris off the top >of a half height rack, and I had small accident. The computer >shifted too quick and crushed my hand against the side of the rack >on it's way down. No broken bones but my hand swelled the other >day. Seems okay today, just a bit stiff. The only person with me >was my wife. If something really bad had happened she probably >couldn't have helped. A couple of lessons learned: 1. I'm not 20 >anymore (my mind is willing, my body is not). 2. Make sure my sons >are around when moving heavy items from high spots to low spots. > >Be safe and have fun collecting. Prior to getting everything moved out of storage and into the garage of our new house, I always made sure I had someone there that could at least run and get help if I got stuck under a "landslide". Things are a lot safer in our garage than storage had been for years. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jan 14 10:30:21 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 11:30:21 -0500 Subject: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B4F30EF.7020906@compsys.to> References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net><6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com><4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> , <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> <4B4EB3F7.5020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4F30EF.7020906@compsys.to> Message-ID: <9FA0CF4A-BF5C-4B82-8710-58BAA32D1500@neurotica.com> On Jan 14, 2010, at 9:57 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > SCSI hard disk drives are relatively rare, but probably inexpensive. > The older drives of less than 10 GB are no longer seen very often. > However, I have a number of (very?) noisy 2 GB drives I rarely use. > The host adapters are still expensive. The alternatives are ESDI or > MFM drives. ESDI controllers may be less available. The RQDXn > controllers from DEC should be more available. Good heavens. On what planet are SCSI drives rare? And on what planet are they inexpensive? At first (after picking myself up off the floor) I thought maybe you mistyped and meant "SCSI host adapters", which certainly are rare...but since they're far from inexpensive, that couldn't be it. To inject a little reality into this paragraph: SCSI drives are everywhere, while ESDI drives are comparatively difficult to find, and MFM drives are becoming somewhat difficult to find. For DEC machines, SCSI host adapters are rare and expensive, ESDI controllers are a bit more common and less expensive. RQDX3s are as common as dirt, with RQDX2 and RQDX1 boards less so but still not difficult to get. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 14 11:18:20 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 10:18:20 -0700 Subject: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B4F30EF.7020906@compsys.to> References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net><6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com><4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> , <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> <4B4EB3F7.5020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4F30EF.7020906@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4B4F51DC.8080105@jetnet.ab.ca> >> What have you sell, that can be shipped and in *small packages*? >> Let me know now, and I can plan to scrape up cash. What I allways >> wanted was a Heath 11, or something that has a OS, 32KB of memory >> a PDP 11 cpu and working media bigger than mini-floppy size. > > I would suggest that you aim a bit higher at a BA23 box since they > are probably just as available as a PDP-11/03 as far as the backplane > is concerned. MegaByte memory should also be available, so the > minimum CPU would be a PDP-11/23. V05.00 of RT-11 supports > the use of the full 4 MegaBytes of the memory and is available. Well I need real hardware first,how ever 18 bit adressing is ample for me, providing I have mass media that will last a few more years. I know nothing about what software or hardware is for the PDP 11 since it was never marketed as a personal product. > Since you are mostly a hardware person (if you want a Heath 11), > what do you actually do with a computer after you have it running? > I ask that since I am a software person. There seems to be an endless > supply of software challenges once the hardware is working. Well I would like to get a OS and assember/linker/editor as basic software, but I have no idea cost or legal issues of said items. PDP 8 software I find on the web, PDP 11 stuff I don't think so. > Also, which operating system? In RT-11, the DY.SYS device driver > works very well. BUT the DYX.SYS device driver supports ONLY > an 18 bit address, so the user buffer MUST be below 1/4 MegaByte > in the extended memory for the DEC release. Since all of the DEC > utility programs avoid the use of extended memory, a user buffer above > 1/4 MegaByte is a problem only if VBGEXE is being used with a DEC > utility program. I am single user here,small is better. > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine > Thank you. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 14 12:22:55 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 10:22:55 -0800 Subject: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <1207200462.10077911263479623453.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1207200462.10077911263479623453.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4B4EF07F.21186.C816A@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Jan 2010 at 14:33, feldman.r at comcast.net wrote: > Remembering the fate of Don Maslin's OS disk collection is relevant > here. I was going to mention that--another case of a exasperated and probably angry widow. Thank heavens Don shared a lot of his collection before his death. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 14 12:31:59 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 10:31:59 -0800 Subject: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B4F51DC.8080105@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net><6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com><4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> , <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> <4B4EB3F7.5020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4F30EF.7020906@compsys.to> <4B4F51DC.8080105@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4B4F631F.8030002@bitsavers.org> On 1/14/10 9:18 AM, Ben wrote: > I know nothing about what software or hardware is for the PDP 11 > since it was never marketed as a personal product. > Too bad there isn't any documentation available for the PDP-11 on the web. From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Jan 14 12:36:01 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 12:36:01 -0600 Subject: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B4EF07F.21186.C816A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1207200462.10077911263479623453.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4B4EF07F.21186.C816A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001141036l1c92fb1s7ef9c81d3e1e8e96@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 12:22 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 14 Jan 2010 at 14:33, feldman.r at comcast.net wrote: > >> Remembering the fate of Don Maslin's OS disk collection is relevant >> here. > > I was going to mention that--another case of a exasperated and > probably angry widow. ?Thank heavens Don shared a lot of his > collection before his death. I missed that! What happened? brian From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Jan 14 12:41:39 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 10:41:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B4EF07F.21186.C816A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <226882.37399.qm@web52603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 1/14/10, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Remembering the fate of Don Maslin's OS disk > collection is relevant > > here. > > I was going to mention that--another case of a exasperated > and > probably angry widow. Thank heavens Don shared a lot > of his > collection before his death. > I had wondered what actually became of this. I remember hearing of people's attempts to work with her to save the archive, but I never heard one way or the other. So, I assume she just finally pitched everything then? -Ian From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 14 12:49:39 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 10:49:39 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin (was Re: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks) In-Reply-To: <4B4EF07F.21186.C816A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1207200462.10077911263479623453.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4B4EF07F.21186.C816A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B4F6743.50104@bitsavers.org> On 1/14/10 10:22 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Thank heavens Don shared a lot of his > collection before his death. > Has what survived been collected anywhere? I've been going through dumping what I can find because I assumed that very few of the system disks he collected have survived. In Sep,2004... Vernon Wright (vern4wright AT yahoo DOT com), a colleague of Don for several years, posts that he has contacted the family of Don Maslin. He says he'll take care of Don's archive, and the family requests no one contact them about the archive for now. Was happened? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 14 12:59:11 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 18:59:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B4E6669.8010107@jbrain.com> from "Jim Brain" at Jan 13, 10 06:33:45 pm Message-ID: > Whether one agrees or not, one has to admire the seriousness and > decisiveness. However, I'll remind myself to steer clear of any > requests from Tony to help move/rescue large computer equipment. I'm > most assuredly not that extreme. Actually, AFAIK nobody has been injured (even in a minor way) when helping me (or when I've benn helping them) to move big iron. The reason is I don't try to exceed what's sensivly possible, I am not afraid to take machines apart into small, easilly moveable parts. I certianly wouldn't try moving a rack cabinet full of computer stuff without a _lot_ of thought. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 14 13:06:38 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 19:06:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <20100114072118.40d94091.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Jan 14, 10 07:21:18 am Message-ID: > > On Wed, 13 Jan 2010 18:57:16 +0000 (GMT) > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > I am not at all convincced about that. People have a wonderful=20 > > self-repair system, classic computers tend not to. I'd rather suffer a=20 > > major injory than loose an irreplaceable classic computer... > Tony. This self-repair system can't repair everything. If you lost a True... > limb, or if you got blinded, it will be for ever. You will not be able > to work on classic computers without hands or eyesight. Well, it depends on the limb... I would see no difficulty in doing a lot of classic computer work in a wheelchair (although how I would fit a wheelchair around my collection is another matter). And having had to do a num,ber of tasks one-handed (becuase the other hand is in use for something else at the time), I think I'd find it inconvenient to loose one arm, not totally impossible. And of course it would make no difference to working on high voltage stuff :-) As regards eyesight, yes, i regard that as very important. But I am more likely to damage my eyes wen making up some part for a classic computer, rather then when moving said computer. But I seem to recall reading about bind people who could solder, desolder, etc. I'd rather not have to re-learn said skills, but... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 14 13:14:00 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 19:14:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <20100114150054.ba1e316d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Jan 14, 10 03:00:54 pm Message-ID: > > On Wed, 13 Jan 2010 21:55:31 -0500 > William Donzelli wrote: > > > The point is not to actually give away the collection, but to appoint > > someone to give it away (or sell it). > That's it. A few years back a friend of mine died. He had quite some > PeeCees, VAXen, PDP11s, Alphas, ... and some random "computer gear". > His family was lost in all this stuff. They had enough work to care > about the normal things like clothes, furniture, domestic > appliances, ... They didn't know what to do with all this "computers". > Some friends of the deceased person jumped in and liquidated all that > computer stuff for the family. We took everything away, "soled" some it > to our self or soled it on ebay. We returned the money to the family > to cover part of the furneral costs. The family was very glad and > thankfull to have this help. My solution is to pick somebody who is knowledgeable about classic computers, and shares some of my other interests too, both as executor and prime beneificary (and I shall hopefully formalise this is a will before it becomes necessary :-)). Said person knows that a C64 is as common as dirt, whereas an HP9831 most certainly isn't. And that while a random book on BASIC programming is quite likely to he uninteresting, an autograpphed copy of 'Automatic Digital Computers' is something worth keeping. Since I have no dependant family, this seems to be the most sensible solution. Under UK law, you can't benefit from somebody's will if you are convicted of murderign them (and I suspect it's the same in other countries), so the chap has no incentive to bump me off. Not that he would... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 14 13:17:53 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 19:17:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <47250E54-ADAA-4D22-8182-C76A59C6B0D2@colourfull.com> from "Robert Borsuk" at Jan 14, 10 09:39:19 am Message-ID: > > I just wanted to chime in on this with a quick story. The same day some = > one posted this, I was moving my professional Iris off the top of a half = > height rack, and I had small accident. The computer shifted too quick = > and crushed my hand against the side of the rack on it's way down. No = > broken bones but my hand swelled the other day. Seems okay today, just = > a bit stiff. The only person with me was my wife. If something really = > bad had happened she probably couldn't have helped. A couple of lessons = Well, presumably she could have summoned help. THis reminds me of a rule I don't think I've ever broken. If you are working on live high-voltaeg stuff, make sure there's somebody else with you who knows how to turn off the power and fetch help if you do connect yourself across the amins. -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 14 13:56:24 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 12:56:24 -0700 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B4F76E8.70508@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: >> Whether one agrees or not, one has to admire the seriousness and >> decisiveness. However, I'll remind myself to steer clear of any >> requests from Tony to help move/rescue large computer equipment. I'm >> most assuredly not that extreme. > > Actually, AFAIK nobody has been injured (even in a minor way) when > helping me (or when I've benn helping them) to move big iron. The reason > is I don't try to exceed what's sensivly possible, I am not afraid to > take machines apart into small, easilly moveable parts. I certianly > wouldn't try moving a rack cabinet full of computer stuff without a _lot_ > of thought. You are no fun ... How far can this rack *roll* down the hall! :) > -tony > From pontus at update.uu.se Thu Jan 14 14:17:03 2010 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 21:17:03 +0100 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B4D9953.4414.CE94C@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <833622.76410.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <20100113074841.GA28938@Update.UU.SE> <4B4D9953.4414.CE94C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B4F7BBF.5010001@update.uu.se> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Your landlord allowed this? When we moved a VAX 11/750 into a > commercial office building, we had to pay to have the floor (second > floor offices) reinforced (a platform built over the existing floor) > because of the loading specs. I don't know if it was strictly > necessary (perhaps the number is a worst-case-fully-populated > situation) but it wasn't inexpensive Well.. uhm, I haven't asked. But a few janitors have been here and they have not complained. However, I have estimated that the 11/750 weighs no more than 200 kg and I've checked that it is below the number of kilos allowed for a square meter of concrete floor. Also the VAX occupies more than a square meter. If three persons of my posture(about 90kg) stood on the same square meter it would weigh more than the VAX. And what house doesn't mange that? /Pontus From pontus at update.uu.se Thu Jan 14 14:18:53 2010 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 21:18:53 +0100 Subject: Lack of Posts on alt.sys.pdp11 and vmsnet.pdp-11 In-Reply-To: References: <4B4F325E.4050207@compsys.to> <4B4F37FB.3090406@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <4B4F7C2D.4070303@update.uu.se> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 10:27 AM -0500 1/14/10, Barry L. Kline wrote: >> Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> >>> Has anyone seen any more recent posts? Perhaps the >> > newsgroups server I use is not passing the posts along. >> >> Hi Jerome. >> >> The latest I have is 1/4/2010, on alt.sys.pdp11. >> >> On vmsnet.pdp-11 the newest is 9/27/2009. > > Also the vmsnet.* hierarchy is one of the ones that is likely to be > skipped by USENET providers. For a long time I didn't have access, > and I honestly can't remember if I do right now or not. > > Zane > > Which brings up a question I've had for a long time. What USENET providers are good to rely on for these more obscure news feeds? /P From blkline at attglobal.net Thu Jan 14 14:48:01 2010 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 15:48:01 -0500 Subject: Lack of Posts on alt.sys.pdp11 and vmsnet.pdp-11 In-Reply-To: <4B4F7C2D.4070303@update.uu.se> References: <4B4F325E.4050207@compsys.to> <4B4F37FB.3090406@attglobal.net> <4B4F7C2D.4070303@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4B4F8301.5090109@attglobal.net> Pontus wrote: > Which brings up a question I've had for a long time. What USENET > providers are good to rely on for these more obscure news feeds? I just subscribed to thundernews.com and it seems to have all of the more obscure groups. Barry -- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 14 14:53:30 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 20:53:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B4F76E8.70508@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben" at Jan 14, 10 12:56:24 pm Message-ID: > You are no fun ... How far can this rack *roll* down the hall! :) I first read that as 'roll down the _hill_' :-) More seriosuly, I know I am going to have to repair/restore the machine after moving it, so I want to minimise any damage. The bits that get damaged when a rack overturns tend to be parts that are difficult to make and even more difficult to obtain. -tony From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jan 14 15:24:52 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 13:24:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Lack of Posts on alt.sys.pdp11 and vmsnet.pdp-11 In-Reply-To: <4B4F7C2D.4070303@update.uu.se> from Pontus at "Jan 14, 10 09:18:53 pm" Message-ID: <201001142124.o0ELOqiT009712@floodgap.com> > Which brings up a question I've had for a long time. What USENET > providers are good to rely on for these more obscure news feeds? I've been so far happy with Newscene. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "A View To A Kill" --------------------------------- From doc at vaxen.net Thu Jan 14 15:35:18 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 15:35:18 -0600 Subject: Lack of Posts on alt.sys.pdp11 and vmsnet.pdp-11 In-Reply-To: <201001142124.o0ELOqiT009712@floodgap.com> References: <201001142124.o0ELOqiT009712@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4B4F8E16.9040207@vaxen.net> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Which brings up a question I've had for a long time. What USENET >> providers are good to rely on for these more obscure news feeds? > > I've been so far happy with Newscene. Second that. I've had an account with them for a long time - 10 years maybe. Never had any issues with the service, and they carry a silly number of groups. Doc From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Thu Jan 14 15:38:46 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 13:38:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Lack of Posts on alt.sys.pdp11 and vmsnet.pdp-11 In-Reply-To: <201001142124.o0ELOqiT009712@floodgap.com> References: <201001142124.o0ELOqiT009712@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <375634.1931.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Man, $12.99 a month for the cheap plan. Remember when your ISP used to do this for free? Mine quit a few months ago. ________________________________ From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Thu, January 14, 2010 3:24:52 PM Subject: Re: Lack of Posts on alt.sys.pdp11 and vmsnet.pdp-11 > Which brings up a question I've had for a long time. What USENET > providers are good to rely on for these more obscure news feeds? I've been so far happy with Newscene. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "A View To A Kill" --------------------------------- From sethm at loomcom.com Thu Jan 14 15:54:35 2010 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 21:54:35 +0000 Subject: Lack of Posts on alt.sys.pdp11 and vmsnet.pdp-11 In-Reply-To: <4B4F7C2D.4070303@update.uu.se> References: <4B4F325E.4050207@compsys.to> <4B4F37FB.3090406@attglobal.net> <4B4F7C2D.4070303@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20100114215435.GA4413@mail.loomcom.com> * On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 09:18:53PM +0100, Pontus wrote: > Which brings up a question I've had for a long time. What USENET > providers are good to rely on for these more obscure news feeds? First, thank you so much for not saying "begs the question" ;-) Second, I've been very happy with news.eternal-september.org. For details on access, see http://www.eternal-september.org/ . I'd have used it just for the great in-joke name, but they offer free access to all text-only Usenet groups. So far, nothing I have wanted to read has been missing. Of course you won't get alt.binaries.*, but those have been useless for about 15 years, so you're not missing anything. And remember... Today is September 5980, 1993, the september that never ends! > /P -Seth From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jan 14 16:07:58 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 14:07:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Lack of Posts on alt.sys.pdp11 and vmsnet.pdp-11 In-Reply-To: <375634.1931.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <201001142124.o0ELOqiT009712@floodgap.com> <375634.1931.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Jan 2010, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > Man, $12.99 a month for the cheap plan. Remember when your ISP used to do > this for free? Mine quit a few months ago. My ISP still offers free USENET access, but when they outsourced their USENET server "x" years ago, they went with an outfit that doesn't carry vmsnet.*. :-( Actually come to think of it my "ISP" is no longer my ISP, but rather a company I pay for Shell, email, USENET, and light web hosting. My ISP is now Verizon, and I doubt they offer USENET. Zane From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Jan 14 16:19:16 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 17:19:16 -0500 Subject: Lack of Posts on alt.sys.pdp11 and vmsnet.pdp-11 References: <201001142124.o0ELOqiT009712@floodgap.com> <375634.1931.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: http://www.forteinc.com/apn/index.php Service Plan Monthly Cost Max Speed Binary Retention Text Retention Measured Service Plans 12 Gigabytes $2.95 Unlimited 300 days 500 days 25 Gigabytes $5.95 Unlimited 300 days 500 days 70 Gigabytes $9.95 Unlimited 300 days 500 days Unlimited Service Plans Unlimited $14.75 Unlimited 300 days 500 days From keithvz at verizon.net Thu Jan 14 16:22:41 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 17:22:41 -0500 Subject: Lack of Posts on alt.sys.pdp11 and vmsnet.pdp-11 In-Reply-To: References: <201001142124.o0ELOqiT009712@floodgap.com> <375634.1931.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B4F9931.1060203@verizon.net> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Actually come to think of it my "ISP" is no longer my ISP, but rather a > company I pay for Shell, email, USENET, and light web hosting. My ISP is > now Verizon, and I doubt they offer USENET. > > Zane > > For anyone looking, I used giganews for years, and they were cheap, very reliable, great retention, etc. When I canceled, it was followed up by a personal email (not a form letter), just asking why I was leaving and what they could have done better. This wasn't a push for me to stay, but a genuine concern for how they could improve the service. In my case, I simply didn't use it enough to justify the $5-$8/month I paid. If I ever needed it again, they'd get the first shot at my business. Verizon offered up to Sept 30, 2009. https://www.verizon.net/central/vzc.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=vzc_help_announcement&id=newsgroups_discontinue It's irritating because of why: http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2008/06/alt-blocked-verizon-blocks-access-to-whole-usenet-hierarchy.ars Of course, access to usenet HAD to be restricted because some people do bad things with some part of it. It's a dangerous dangerous slippery slope. Keith From blkline at attglobal.net Thu Jan 14 16:25:29 2010 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 17:25:29 -0500 Subject: Lack of Posts on alt.sys.pdp11 and vmsnet.pdp-11 In-Reply-To: References: <201001142124.o0ELOqiT009712@floodgap.com> <375634.1931.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B4F99D9.8010201@attglobal.net> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Actually come to think of it my "ISP" is no longer my ISP, but rather a > company I pay for Shell, email, USENET, and light web hosting. My ISP is > now Verizon, and I doubt they offer USENET. Zane, they used to but they shut it down last September or October. That's why I had to subscribe to thundernews. The best part of the announcement email I got from Verizon was the comment that the change would not result in a price increase. I'd be paying the same. I called them and told the rep "So let me get this straight... I get to pay the same amount for less service. What a deal!" Barry -- From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jan 14 16:51:29 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 14:51:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Lack of Posts on alt.sys.pdp11 and vmsnet.pdp-11 In-Reply-To: <4B4F99D9.8010201@attglobal.net> References: <201001142124.o0ELOqiT009712@floodgap.com> <375634.1931.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B4F99D9.8010201@attglobal.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Jan 2010, Barry L. Kline wrote: > Zane, they used to but they shut it down last September or October. > That's why I had to subscribe to thundernews. The best part of the > announcement email I got from Verizon was the comment that the change > would not result in a price increase. I'd be paying the same. > > I called them and told the rep "So let me get this straight... I get to > pay the same amount for less service. What a deal!" Prior to moving I had Aracnet for my ISP providing me with DSL service, and Verizon simply provided the line. When we bought a house one of the previous sets of owners had suckered for FIOS, as a result the only option was FIOS. To get the level of service I was paying about $40 for now costs me more like $120. While the insane jump in speed is nice at times, I don't see that much benefit from it, since most websites I visit can't provide the data anywhere near fast enough. Basically I have a business FIOS line now with Verizon, and still use Aracnet for everything. Zane From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Jan 14 18:43:59 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 19:43:59 -0500 Subject: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B4F51DC.8080105@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net><6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com><4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> , <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> <4B4EB3F7.5020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4F30EF.7020906@compsys.to> <4B4F51DC.8080105@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4B4FBA4F.3090009@compsys.to> >Ben wrote: >>> What have you sell, that can be shipped and in *small packages*? >>> Let me know now, and I can plan to scrape up cash. What I allways >>> wanted was a Heath 11, or something that has a OS, 32KB of memory >>> a PDP 11 cpu and working media bigger than mini-floppy size. >> >> I would suggest that you aim a bit higher at a BA23 box since they >> are probably just as available as a PDP-11/03 as far as the backplane >> is concerned. MegaByte memory should also be available, so the >> minimum CPU would be a PDP-11/23. V05.00 of RT-11 supports >> the use of the full 4 MegaBytes of the memory and is available. > > Well I need real hardware first,how ever 18 bit adressing is ample > for me, providing I have mass media that will last a few more years. > I know nothing about what software or hardware is for the PDP 11 > since it was never marketed as a personal product. The smallest Qbus backplane is one that fits into a VT100 which is then called a VT103. This backplane is 4 dual slots and just barely manages. There is also a 4 quad slot version which is likely no more expensive these days if you can find one - most likely free from an individual who has graduated to a BA23 box. There are also independent backplanes with power supply and 4 quad slots, but these are probably harder to find now than a BA23 box and probably only half the size and weight of a BA23. >> Since you are mostly a hardware person (if you want a Heath 11), >> what do you actually do with a computer after you have it running? >> I ask that since I am a software person. There seems to be an endless >> supply of software challenges once the hardware is working. > > Well I would like to get a OS and assember/linker/editor as > basic software, but I have no idea cost or legal issues of said items. > PDP 8 software I find on the web, PDP 11 stuff I don't think so. There are a number of sites which offer PDP-11 distributions. The site that I used for RT-11 was: http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RT-11/dists/ which offers V04.00, V05.03 and ALL (well probably most) of the binary RT-11 versions up to V05.03 of RT-11. If you want to learn about RT-11, then the simple way is to use an emulator running on a PC. Ersatz-11 (which I use most of the time) is free to hobby users and SIMH is free to everyone as far as I understand, although that may not be the case. But with Ersatz-11 being much less than the cost of real DEC hardware when DEC was selling it, any commercial user will run under Ersatz-11 since it is about ten times the speed of SIMH which is written in C. If you need help in running RT-11 after you download an RT-11 distribution, please ask. >> Also, which operating system? In RT-11, the DY.SYS device driver >> works very well. BUT the DYX.SYS device driver supports ONLY >> an 18 bit address, so the user buffer MUST be below 1/4 MegaByte >> in the extended memory for the DEC release. Since all of the DEC >> utility programs avoid the use of extended memory, a user buffer above >> 1/4 MegaByte is a problem only if VBGEXE is being used with a DEC >> utility program. > > I am single user here,small is better. Not after your programs become large enough. The maximum program under RT-11 using VBGEXE is 64 KBytes. Under the SJ unmapped monitor, programs must be much smaller. RT-11 distributions are complete with editor, assembler and linker. There are many utility programs to copy files. Languages such as C and FORTRAN are available as well. These are called layered products. The manuals for RT-11 are available at bitsavers. The hardcopy is THREE feet of manuals in binders. All of the PDF files are available in 21 files of a total of 12.5 MBytes. It is usually the data that becomes too large. I have a program that sieves for prime numbers. Under Ersatz-11, the program has direct access to the PC memory of over 1 GigaByte and more memory would be better. The actual code is very small, but when sieving for prime numbers, a larger work space helps. I should probably switch to a program directly on the PC, but I enjoy working in RT-11. I am in the midst of a slow (more than a year) move to Windows XP on an Intel Q9500 quad 2.83 GHz CPU which runs RT-11 about 100 times as fast as a PDP-11/93 for the CPU and about 200 times as fast as a SCSI or ESDI hard disk drive using a SATA 300 hard drive of 1 TB. That provides a lot of storage as compared to a 600 MB Maxstore or Hitachi ESDI hard drive which is what I run on the PDP-11/83 out of a BA123 box. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jan 14 18:57:12 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 16:57:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Lack of Posts on alt.sys.pdp11 and vmsnet.pdp-11 In-Reply-To: <375634.1931.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> from geoffrey oltmans at "Jan 14, 10 01:38:46 pm" Message-ID: <201001150057.o0F0vC6I009484@floodgap.com> > Man, $12.99 a month for the cheap plan. Remember when your ISP used to do > this for free? Mine quit a few months ago. No, newscene is not cheap. But they have always responded to me promptly, their service is very fast, and retention has always been there when I needed it. I'm a heavy Usenet user, however, so my needs are different than others'. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- In Computer Science, we stand on each other's feet. -- Brian Reid ---------- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 14 19:43:31 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 18:43:31 -0700 Subject: Collections:thinning out In-Reply-To: <4B4FBA4F.3090009@compsys.to> References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net><6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com><4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> , <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> <4B4EB3F7.5020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4F30EF.7020906@compsys.to> <4B4F51DC.8080105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4FBA4F.3090009@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4B4FC843.1070205@jetnet.ab.ca> Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > The smallest Qbus backplane is one that fits into a VT100 which is > then called a VT103. This backplane is 4 dual slots and just barely > manages. There is also a 4 quad slot version which is likely no more > expensive these days if you can find one - most likely free from an > individual who has graduated to a BA23 box. > > There are also independent backplanes with power supply and > 4 quad slots, but these are probably harder to find now than a BA23 > box and probably only half the size and weight of a BA23. I guess what it boils down to is what components you want to farm out to me, if you wish to sell part of your collection. Does the VT103 contain a VT100 terminal? > There are a number of sites which offer PDP-11 distributions. > The site that I used for RT-11 was: > http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RT-11/dists/ > which offers V04.00, V05.03 and ALL (well probably most) of > the binary RT-11 versions up to V05.03 of RT-11. If you want > to learn about RT-11, then the simple way is to use an emulator > running on a PC. Ersatz-11 (which I use most of the time) is free > to hobby users and SIMH is free to everyone as far as I understand, > although that may not be the case. But with Ersatz-11 being much > less than the cost of real DEC hardware when DEC was selling it, > any commercial user will run under Ersatz-11 since it is about ten > times the speed of SIMH which is written in C. Bookmarked until the next PC crash! > If you need help in running RT-11 after you download an RT-11 > distribution, please ask. > Not after your programs become large enough. The maximum program > under RT-11 using VBGEXE is 64 KBytes. Under the SJ unmapped > monitor, programs must be much smaller. How much free space? 48KB? > RT-11 distributions are complete with editor, assembler and linker. There > are many utility programs to copy files. Languages such as C and FORTRAN > are available as well. These are called layered products. > > The manuals for RT-11 are available at bitsavers. The hardcopy is THREE > feet of manuals in binders. All of the PDF files are available in 21 > files of a > total of 12.5 MBytes. This on my 'round tu-it' list for the spring. > It is usually the data that becomes too large. I have a program that sieves > for prime numbers. Under Ersatz-11, the program has direct access to the > PC memory of over 1 GigaByte and more memory would be better. The > actual code is very small, but when sieving for prime numbers, a larger > work space helps. I should probably switch to a program directly on the > PC, but I enjoy working in RT-11. I am in the midst of a slow (more than > a year) move to Windows XP on an Intel Q9500 quad 2.83 GHz CPU > which runs RT-11 about 100 times as fast as a PDP-11/93 for the CPU > and about 200 times as fast as a SCSI or ESDI hard disk drive using a > SATA 300 hard drive of 1 TB. That provides a lot of storage as compared > to a 600 MB Maxstore or Hitachi ESDI hard drive which is what I run > on the PDP-11/83 out of a BA123 box. From just using a PC at home with XP, automatic updates seem to want you to reboot at least one a week. > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine > From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Jan 14 19:54:19 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 20:54:19 -0500 Subject: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <9FA0CF4A-BF5C-4B82-8710-58BAA32D1500@neurotica.com> References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net><6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com><4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> , <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> <4B4EB3F7.5020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4F30EF.7020906@compsys.to> <9FA0CF4A-BF5C-4B82-8710-58BAA32D1500@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B4FCACB.9090907@compsys.to> >Dave McGuire wrote: > >On Jan 14, 2010, at 9:57 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >> SCSI hard disk drives are relatively rare, but probably inexpensive. >> The older drives of less than 10 GB are no longer seen very often. >> However, I have a number of (very?) noisy 2 GB drives I rarely use. >> The host adapters are still expensive. The alternatives are ESDI or >> MFM drives. ESDI controllers may be less available. The RQDXn >> controllers from DEC should be more available. > > Good heavens. On what planet are SCSI drives rare? And on what > planet are they inexpensive? Mostly just repeating what I saw here about 50 pin SCSI hard drives of less than 10 GB. When I finally managed to purchase a few such drives about 10 years ago, they were not that easy to find at a low price. I have not looked for 50 pin SCSI hard drives for a long time, so I was surprised to find a local company in Toronto who charges $ 15 for a 31 GB SCSI hard drive on eBay that allows local pickup. On the other hand, eBay has no Qbus SCSI host adapters, although I am confident that 3rd party Qbus dealers have many for sale. > At first (after picking myself up off the floor) I thought maybe you > mistyped and meant "SCSI host adapters", which certainly are > rare...but since they're far from inexpensive, that couldn't be it. I apologize!! I was VERY wrong about the SCSI hard drives. > To inject a little reality into this paragraph: > > SCSI drives are everywhere, while ESDI drives are comparatively > difficult to find, and MFM drives are becoming somewhat difficult to > find. For DEC machines, SCSI host adapters are rare and expensive, > ESDI controllers are a bit more common and less expensive. RQDX3s > are as common as dirt, with RQDX2 and RQDX1 boards less so but still > not difficult to get. YES!! Since the RQDX3 is a dual board and now easy to find from so many VAX and PDP-11 systems, that would be the better solution. Avoid the RD53 drive if you want to be able to read the files after the drive is turned off. The other RD5n drives seem to behave if they can be written in the first place. But formatting an RD5n drive is not trivial and requires XXDP software on a PDP-11 system. For myself, I still have a few ESDI hard drives. Most are Maxstor and Hitachi of 600 MB, 5 1/4" FULL height and heavy. I also have a few ESDI controllers. All ESDI hardware was purchased between 15 and 20 years ago when I needed reliable hard drives of around 600 MB. I suspect that for a company (not a hobby user) willing to pay the cost, a Qbus SCSI host adapter can easily be found. I can let you know a general range, but I suspect that $ 1000 might not be too much for some of these boards at quantity one. DEC, CMD, Emulex and Dialog all made Qbus SCSI host adapters. I don't know who sold the most Qbus SCSI host adapter boards. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Jan 14 20:04:47 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 21:04:47 -0500 Subject: [SPAM] - Re: Collections:thinning out - Found word(s) farm in the Text body In-Reply-To: <4B4FC843.1070205@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net><6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com><4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> , <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> <4B4EB3F7.5020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4F30EF.7020906@compsys.to> <4B4F51DC.8080105@jetnet.ab.ca><4B4FBA4F.3090009@compsys.to> <4B4FC843.1070205@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4B4FCD3F.2040600@compsys.to> >Ben wrote: > I guess what it boils down to is what components you want to farm out > to me, if you wish to sell part of your collection. Does the > VT103 contain a VT100 terminal? I don't recommend this solution unless you have a very specific application. My VT103 is a VT100 plus a Qbus backplane with 4 quad slots. The power supply is too limited to run anything properly for an extended period. > Bookmarked until the next PC crash! Just ask again. >> Not after your programs become large enough. The maximum program >> under RT-11 using VBGEXE is 64 KBytes. Under the SJ unmapped >> monitor, programs must be much smaller. > > How much free space? 48KB? Figure on about 32 KB at the most. While SJ RT-11 takes less, I always recommend the FB monitor. Better yet, run the XM monitor and use VBGEXE to support a 64 KB job when needed. That usually requires at least 1/4 MB of memory, but a PDP-11/73 with 2 MB of memory is probably just as easy to find as a smaller system. >> All of the PDF files are available in 21 >> files of a >> total of 12.5 MBytes. > > This on my 'round tu-it' list for the spring. The first time it is a lot to read. After the 100th time, it becomes easier to remember. I still need to look up questions about device handlers. > From just using a PC at home with XP, automatic updates seem to want you > to reboot at least one a week. My wife runs Windows XP already. She turns the system off every night. So a reboot is not a problem. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Jan 14 20:17:16 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 02:17:16 -0000 Subject: [SPAM] - Re: [SPAM] - Re: Collections:thinning out - etc. In-Reply-To: <4B4FCD3F.2040600@compsys.to> References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net><6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com><4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> , <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> <4B4EB3F7.5020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4F30EF.7020906@compsys.to> <4B4F51DC.8080105@jetnet.ab.ca><4B4FBA4F.3090009@compsys.to><4B4FC843.1070205@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4FCD3F.2040600@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4B88A9F7.9030702@compsys.to> >Jerome H. Fine wrote: I apologize for the SPAM words in the header - my ISP puts them there and I often forget to remove them!! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Jan 14 20:19:03 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 21:19:03 -0500 Subject: [SPAM] - Re: [SPAM] - Re: Collections:thinning out - etc. In-Reply-To: <4B4FCD3F.2040600@compsys.to> References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net><6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com><4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> , <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> <4B4EB3F7.5020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4F30EF.7020906@compsys.to> <4B4F51DC.8080105@jetnet.ab.ca><4B4FBA4F.3090009@compsys.to><4B4FC843.1070205@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4FCD3F.2040600@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4B4FD097.3080407@compsys.to> >Jerome H. Fine wrote: Sorry for the SPAM words in the Subject. My ISP puts them there and I often forget to remove them!! Also sorry for the wrong date and time! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From lynchaj at yahoo.com Thu Jan 14 20:34:39 2010 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 21:34:39 -0500 Subject: Z80 CP/M and 6809 CUBIX homebrew computer Message-ID: Hi! One of the N8VEM builders just posted this photo of a completed N8VEM homebrew computer system. http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/f/n8vem_case_nb.JPG The homebrew computer is functionally complete with all the components you would expect of a system of the late 1970's early 1980's era. It runs CP/M on the Z80 and CUBIX on the 6809. All information for hardware and software design is free and publicly posted on the N8VEM wiki and mailing list. You are welcome to join if you would like. You can make your own or buy low cost PCBs and build your own system. Andrew Lynch From vern4wright at yahoo.com Thu Jan 14 20:48:11 2010 From: vern4wright at yahoo.com (Vernon Wright) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 18:48:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Don Maslin (was Re: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks) Message-ID: <149598.64337.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Al, The short (or long) of it is that 1) I got everyone to stop calling Don's wife Winnie right after his death (8-2004) with the understanding that I would rescue his archive, package it, and make it available for everyone to download gratis (the Computer Museum here in SD was going to provide a platform and a bit of legal protection). 2) Winnie later declined to allow anyone to find, rescue the archive. There was no way to make her understand WHAT the archive was, much less its value. IMHO, she thought Don was just puttering in the garage that served as his shop. When it became clear that she would not keep her side of our agreement, and that my involvement was not going to be helpful, I suggested that Jay West contact her (I don't think he did). 3) A family member (who gave me the photos of Don and Winnie I sent to Sellam for the following VCF) told me that he thought the garage would remain as it was until Winnie died, or had it cleaned out by some junk hauler. I later heard that a lawyer was going to find the archive and rescue it; he supposedly thought it could be done in an afternoon. Rots of ruck, I thought. Don's shop was a physical mess, and the archive was not in just one computer, all nicely organized. Personally, I felt - and still feel sick about it. I OUGHT to have somehow forced Don to put the stuff on CD (I showed him how, but he hated Windoze with a passion and wouldn't play Linux either.) And he was an adult.... You can get all the details in the 2004-2005 ClassicCmp archives. Or write me back. Vern Wright --- On Thu, 1/14/10, Al Kossow wrote: > From: Al Kossow > Subject: Don Maslin (was Re: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks) > To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Thursday, January 14, 2010, 10:49 AM > On 1/14/10 10:22 AM, Chuck Guzis > wrote: > > Thank heavens Don shared a lot of his > > collection before his death. > > > > Has what survived been collected anywhere? > > I've been going through dumping what I can find because I > assumed > that very few of the system disks he collected have > survived. > > In Sep,2004... > > Vernon Wright (vern4wright AT > yahoo DOT com), a colleague of Don for several years, posts > that he > has contacted the family of Don Maslin. He says he'll take > care of > Don's archive, and the family requests no one contact them > about the > archive for now. > > Was happened? > > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jan 14 21:04:46 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 22:04:46 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin (was Re: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks) In-Reply-To: <149598.64337.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <149598.64337.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > 2) Winnie later declined to allow anyone to find, rescue the archive. There was no way to make her understand WHAT the archive was, much less its value. Has anyone offered her any dough for the archive? -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jan 14 22:14:03 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 23:14:03 -0500 Subject: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B4F631F.8030002@bitsavers.org> References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net><6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com><4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> , <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> <4B4EB3F7.5020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4F30EF.7020906@compsys.to> <4B4F51DC.8080105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4F631F.8030002@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Jan 14, 2010, at 1:31 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> I know nothing about what software or hardware is for the PDP 11 >> since it was never marketed as a personal product. > > Too bad there isn't any documentation available for the PDP-11 on > the web. Yeah really. And what does its as-marketed application have to do with what people know about it? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jan 14 22:34:50 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 20:34:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: small-cap SCSI was Re: Collections In-Reply-To: <4B4FCACB.9090907@compsys.to> from "Jerome H. Fine" at "Jan 14, 10 08:54:19 pm" Message-ID: <201001150434.o0F4YpeG012774@floodgap.com> > > Good heavens. On what planet are SCSI drives rare? And on what > > planet are they inexpensive? > > Mostly just repeating what I saw here about 50 pin SCSI hard drives > of less than 10 GB. When I finally managed to purchase a few such > drives about 10 years ago, they were not that easy to find at a low price. This is true. While they may be around, they are much harder to actually get. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Two can live as cheaply as one, for half as long. -------------------------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jan 14 22:59:32 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 20:59:32 -0800 Subject: small-cap SCSI was Re: Collections In-Reply-To: <201001150434.o0F4YpeG012774@floodgap.com> References: <201001150434.o0F4YpeG012774@floodgap.com> Message-ID: At 8:34 PM -0800 1/14/10, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > Good heavens. On what planet are SCSI drives rare? And on what >> > planet are they inexpensive? >> >> Mostly just repeating what I saw here about 50 pin SCSI hard drives >> of less than 10 GB. When I finally managed to purchase a few such >> drives about 10 years ago, they were not that easy to find at a low price. > >This is true. While they may be around, they are much harder to actually >get. The machines that used these are basically gone. The machines and drives that are still around are likely to be in the hands of collectors like us, or else in the stockpiles of resellers. I know I have a nice small collection for my PDP-11's. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Jan 14 23:01:00 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 00:01:00 -0500 Subject: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks Message-ID: <01CA9576.4BF1D560@MSE_D03> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 22:12:02 -0600 From: Jim Brain Subject: Re: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks >> >> I am in Toronto. Within 6 months, I must dispose of this stuff or >> it will have to go to the dumpter. Is anyone interested? >I have 0 interest in RL drives (not my collecting variant). However, I >will drive to Toronto to keep them from the dumpster if someone in the >US wants them and exhausts all the possibilities to get them. >Jim ----------- I can think of at least two other folks who might be interested in DEC stuff, one local and another who, like Jim, travels up here on occasion; hopefully there will be enough interest to keep it out of the dumpster. But it is a problem; everybody moans when a collectible gets scrapped, but when it comes to actually spending the time and/or money to save it there's often a deafening silence... mike (also in Toronto but with no space or interest). From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 14 23:11:14 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 21:11:14 -0800 Subject: small-cap SCSI was Re: Collections In-Reply-To: <201001150434.o0F4YpeG012774@floodgap.com> References: <4B4FCACB.9090907@compsys.to> from "Jerome H. Fine" at "Jan 14, 10 08:54:19 pm", <201001150434.o0F4YpeG012774@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4B4F8872.255.25E0CAE@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Jan 2010 at 20:34, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > This is true. While they may be around, they are much harder to > actually get. Really? Does that include "Macintosh SCSI"? Wasn't 250MB pretty much standard on the Performas? The local recycler must have crushed tons of the the things by now. --Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Jan 14 23:19:25 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 00:19:25 -0500 Subject: small-cap SCSI was Re: Collections References: <201001150434.o0F4YpeG012774@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <65E51A69FEB94431BE5C209E8B5D0F26@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 11:59 PM Subject: Re: small-cap SCSI was Re: Collections > At 8:34 PM -0800 1/14/10, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> > > Good heavens. On what planet are SCSI drives rare? And on what >>> > planet are they inexpensive? >>> >>> Mostly just repeating what I saw here about 50 pin SCSI hard drives >>> of less than 10 GB. When I finally managed to purchase a few such >>> drives about 10 years ago, they were not that easy to find at a low >>> price. >> >>This is true. While they may be around, they are much harder to actually >>get. > > The machines that used these are basically gone. The machines and drives > that are still around are likely to be in the hands of collectors like us, > or else in the stockpiles of resellers. I know I have a nice small > collection for my PDP-11's. > > Zane > Old small IDE laptop drives are also a little hard to find in working condition at a resonable price. I am sure people with old SCSI machines in their collection are finding the drives are dying out, so the spares will be drying up sooner or later. Oddly enough even scrappers seem to want a bunch of money for small old SCSI and IDE drives, for me it is cheaper just to get a whole laptop or desktop with a drive then just the drive itself (same source). One other thing, people in the hobby for a long time (I am new to collecting starting around 2001 or so) will have things in storage they used to trip over that are now hard to find in the wild. If you throw enough money around you can still get anything you need, just makes it harder to do on a budget. From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Jan 14 23:23:47 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 00:23:47 -0500 Subject: small-cap SCSI was Re: Collections References: <4B4FCACB.9090907@compsys.to> from "Jerome H. Fine" at "Jan 14, 10 08:54:19 pm", <201001150434.o0F4YpeG012774@floodgap.com> <4B4F8872.255.25E0CAE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 12:11 AM Subject: Re: small-cap SCSI was Re: Collections > On 14 Jan 2010 at 20:34, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> This is true. While they may be around, they are much harder to >> actually get. > > Really? Does that include "Macintosh SCSI"? Wasn't 250MB pretty > much standard on the Performas? The local recycler must have crushed > tons of the the things by now. > > --Chuck > Performas seem to have switched to IDE before the higher up models did. When is the last time you seen a 68K/nubus PPC Mac at a recycler anyway? I see mostly P2/P3/P4 systems and the occasional beige g3 or newer at the recyclers around here. Sometimes I get lucky and a few PS/2 systems or old 486 ThinkPads show up. If the recyclers had stacks of 68K macs I would be thrilled. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 14 23:33:55 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 21:33:55 -0800 Subject: small-cap SCSI was Re: Collections In-Reply-To: References: <4B4FCACB.9090907@compsys.to>, Message-ID: <4B4F8DC3.30424.272D28D@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jan 2010 at 0:23, Teo Zenios wrote: > Performas seem to have switched to IDE before the higher up models > did. When is the last time you seen a 68K/nubus PPC Mac at a recycler > anyway? Picked a 6200 off of Freecycle about a year ago. Other than scrapping it, what's it good for? The local recycler says they still get them. --Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Jan 15 00:00:44 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 01:00:44 -0500 Subject: small-cap SCSI was Re: Collections References: <4B4FCACB.9090907@compsys.to>, <4B4F8DC3.30424.272D28D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6033A64A4E244632B77F102266ABD7DD@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 12:33 AM Subject: Re: small-cap SCSI was Re: Collections > On 15 Jan 2010 at 0:23, Teo Zenios wrote: > >> Performas seem to have switched to IDE before the higher up models >> did. When is the last time you seen a 68K/nubus PPC Mac at a recycler >> anyway? > > Picked a 6200 off of Freecycle about a year ago. Other than > scrapping it, what's it good for? The local recycler says they still > get them. > > --Chuck > > 6200 is IDE, slow, and generally not a fun machine. I sold my 6200 (barely over shipping) after I cleaned it up and did a setup of the OS and apps. Generally if they are local and free I will snag any mac I do not have or have not used to see what makes them tick. The 6200 is one of the few I got rid of shortly after using it because it sucked so bad. So far the only Macs I seen at the recycler were 604 PPC/Beige G3 or newer. From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jan 15 00:04:39 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 22:04:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: small-cap SCSI was Re: Collections In-Reply-To: <4B4F8DC3.30424.272D28D@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Jan 14, 10 09:33:55 pm" Message-ID: <201001150604.o0F64dNP020742@floodgap.com> > > Performas seem to have switched to IDE before the higher up models > > did. When is the last time you seen a 68K/nubus PPC Mac at a recycler > > anyway? > > Picked a 6200 off of Freecycle about a year ago. Other than > scrapping it, what's it good for? It makes a handy doorstop. Seriously, they and their relatives are probably the most unloved Power Macintoshes for many good reasons. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish. -- Euripedes ---------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jan 15 00:05:54 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 22:05:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: small-cap SCSI was Re: Collections In-Reply-To: <4B4F8872.255.25E0CAE@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Jan 14, 10 09:11:14 pm" Message-ID: <201001150605.o0F65s4Q016218@floodgap.com> > > This is true. While they may be around, they are much harder to > > actually get. > > Really? Does that include "Macintosh SCSI"? Wasn't 250MB pretty > much standard on the Performas? The local recycler must have crushed > tons of the the things by now. The 68K Performas are rarer than they used to be (probably a combination of willing 68KMLA collectors plus low-quality electronics causing earlier failure), and the later Performas were IDE. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The point of good writing is knowing when to stop. -- Lucy Montgomery ------ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 15 00:15:57 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 22:15:57 -0800 Subject: small-cap SCSI was Re: Collections In-Reply-To: <6033A64A4E244632B77F102266ABD7DD@dell8300> References: <4B4FCACB.9090907@compsys.to>, <6033A64A4E244632B77F102266ABD7DD@dell8300> Message-ID: <4B4F979D.19031.2994DDF@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jan 2010 at 1:00, Teo Zenios wrote: > 6200 is IDE, slow, and generally not a fun machine. I sold my 6200 > (barely over shipping) after I cleaned it up and did a setup of the OS > and apps. Generally if they are local and free I will snag any mac I > do not have or have not used to see what makes them tick. The 6200 is > one of the few I got rid of shortly after using it because it sucked > so bad. Sorry, my fumble-fingers; it's a 6100/60. Came with a 250MB SCSI drive. Probably even slower than the 6200. --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jan 15 00:18:28 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 22:18:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: small-cap SCSI was Re: Collections In-Reply-To: <4B4F979D.19031.2994DDF@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Jan 14, 10 10:15:57 pm" Message-ID: <201001150618.o0F6IST0020750@floodgap.com> > Sorry, my fumble-fingers; it's a 6100/60. Came with a 250MB SCSI > drive. Probably even slower than the 6200. It is, but not by much. Furthermore, in many ways the 6100 is the better engineered machine, and you can turn them into G3s (and even G4s, although I personally have not seen those upgrades). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "Now you're playing with POWER!" ------------------------------------------- From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Jan 15 00:36:21 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 01:36:21 -0500 Subject: small-cap SCSI was Re: Collections References: <201001150618.o0F6IST0020750@floodgap.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 1:18 AM Subject: Re: small-cap SCSI was Re: Collections >> Sorry, my fumble-fingers; it's a 6100/60. Came with a 250MB SCSI >> drive. Probably even slower than the 6200. > > It is, but not by much. Furthermore, in many ways the 6100 is the better > engineered machine, and you can turn them into G3s (and even G4s, although > I personally have not seen those upgrades). > I have two 6100's, I like the one with the DOS compatible logo and the 486 PC card inside. Outside of the PC card novelty the early Nubus PPC is not too exciting other then the Radius 81/110 tower clone I have. My 7100/66 has a G3-240? card in it, not exactly a speed demon. You need a good 8500 or so PCI Powermac to make a G3 add-on worth messing with. From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Fri Jan 15 00:56:04 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 06:56:04 -0000 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: References: <4B4E6669.8010107@jbrain.com> from "Jim Brain" at Jan 13, 10 06:33:45 pm Message-ID: Although I have a lot of old heavy DEC equipment to move. I do have a thirty year old son, six feet four tall, 220lbs and a qualified weight lifting instructor. He knows what I can lift safely or if I wait he will move up to his limit. As with anything "If you aren't sure get someone who is" Regards Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 14 January 2010 18:59 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Be careful handling computer racks > Whether one agrees or not, one has to admire the seriousness and > decisiveness. However, I'll remind myself to steer clear of any > requests from Tony to help move/rescue large computer equipment. I'm > most assuredly not that extreme. Actually, AFAIK nobody has been injured (even in a minor way) when helping me (or when I've benn helping them) to move big iron. The reason is I don't try to exceed what's sensivly possible, I am not afraid to take machines apart into small, easilly moveable parts. I certianly wouldn't try moving a rack cabinet full of computer stuff without a _lot_ of thought. -tony From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jan 15 02:50:49 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 00:50:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: small-cap SCSI was Re: Collections In-Reply-To: from Teo Zenios at "Jan 15, 10 01:36:21 am" Message-ID: <201001150850.o0F8onYm015820@floodgap.com> > > > Sorry, my fumble-fingers; it's a 6100/60. Came with a 250MB SCSI > > > drive. Probably even slower than the 6200. > > > > It is, but not by much. Furthermore, in many ways the 6100 is the better > > engineered machine, and you can turn them into G3s (and even G4s, although > > I personally have not seen those upgrades). > > I have two 6100's, I like the one with the DOS compatible logo and the 486 > PC card inside. Outside of the PC card novelty the early Nubus PPC is not > too exciting other then the Radius 81/110 tower clone I have. > > My 7100/66 has a G3-240? card in it, not exactly a speed demon. You need a > good 8500 or so PCI Powermac to make a G3 add-on worth messing with. I rather like my 7100 with its own G3/233, although I do like my 7300 with a 500MHz G3 and a 400MHz K6-III OrangePC card rather better. :) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Talking about art is like dancing about architecture. -- Frank Zappa ------- From jlobocki at gmail.com Thu Jan 14 13:02:01 2010 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 13:02:01 -0600 Subject: Another possible round of partial SBC6120 & FP6120 Kits! In-Reply-To: <4B4ECEBE.7030008@loomcom.com> References: <4B4ECEBE.7030008@loomcom.com> Message-ID: just a hint, they now make LEDS that mimic the warm white of incandescent lightbulbs, that would seem to give it a more "original" look over the red ones. in fact, im currently using some to replace the light in my sgi octane. On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 1:58 AM, Seth Morabito wrote: > Hey folks, > > I'm forwarding this message from the Spartime Gizmos mailing list > because I think there may be some interest here. > > Steve Gibson is trying to assess interest in doing another run of > Sparetime Gizmos' PDP-8 clone, the SBC6120. This is a big job. The kit > would include all the custom parts for both the SBC6120 single board > computer and the (excellent, IMHO) FP6120 front panel kit. > > If you missed out on the last round of this kit, now would be a very > good time to express interest in getting another run done. Read the > message below for details and the URL where you can register. > > -Seth > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: [sparetimegizmos] Another possible round of partial SBC6120 & > FP6120 Kits! > Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:23:02 -0800 > From: Steve Gibson > Reply-To: sparetimegizmos at yahoogroups.com > To: sparetimegizmos at yahoogroups.com > References: > > Everyone... > > I have been coordinating with Bob Armstrong about the possibility of > another round of combined SBC6120/FP6120 kits. > > If sufficient interest can be generated -- at least 50 purchasers -- Bob > has agreed to produce another round of kits containing all of the special, > custom & programmed bits required to assemble the combination of an SBC6120 > and FP6120. > > My web site's tribute to the PDP-8 consists of eight pages, the last one of > which explains the details of the kits and provides a web-form for allowing > interested people to declare their interest. > > A few minutes ago I announced the existence of the kits during my weekly > Security Now podcast recording. The podcast goes live tomorrow (Thursday), > when we'll have an audience of about 80,000. But a few thousand listeners > watch the recording live ... and we immediately received several > declarations of interest. > > If anyone here in this group was wishing they were able to obtain > additional kit(s), I'm quite hopeful that there might be enough interest > remaining for us to squeeze out another round. > > Here's the page... > http://www.grc.com/pdp-8/yourown-sbc.htm > > And if by some chance you are not familiar with these terrific kits, other > pages in that area, linked at the bottom of that page, contain videos to > give you a good idea of the final product. :) > > Steve Gibson. > > > From jws at jwsss.com Thu Jan 14 14:13:41 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 12:13:41 -0800 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B4F7AF5.9040801@jwsss.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > Well, presumably she could have summoned help. > > THis reminds me of a rule I don't think I've ever broken. If you are working > on live high-voltaeg stuff, make sure there's somebody else with you who > knows how to turn off the power and fetch help if you do connect > yourself across the amins. > > -tony > I never work on anything w/o a cutoff that I completely control (know who is in a house for instance, and where they are, and cut the power with knowledge that they won't turn it back on on me) or where I can padlock the mains off. Same goes for gas. A fellow I know was working on a furnace and someone turned on the gas on him because he had not padlocked it. Not fun. Jim From pinball at telus.net Thu Jan 14 14:33:54 2010 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 12:33:54 -0800 Subject: Lack of Posts on alt.sys.pdp11 and vmsnet.pdp-11 In-Reply-To: <4B4F325E.4050207@compsys.to> References: <4B4F325E.4050207@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4B4F7FB2.5070309@telus.net> Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I normally watch theses two newsgroups. However, the > last post on vmsnet.pdp-11 seems to have been on > September 27th, 2009. Even for this low frequency > group, that seems like a long time. > > For alt.sys.pdp11, the last post was on January 4th, > 2010. Since there is usually a post every few days, > this is also a long time. > > Has anyone seen any more recent posts? Perhaps the > newsgroups server I use is not passing the posts along. > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine > vmsnet.pdp-11 is available in Vancouver, BC, Canada via Telus.net. Not sure about other providers, and I concur that the last post was Sept, 2009. John :-#)# From pinball at telus.net Thu Jan 14 16:39:16 2010 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 14:39:16 -0800 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B4F9D14.9090804@telus.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> You are no fun ... How far can this rack *roll* down the hall! :) >> > > I first read that as 'roll down the _hill_' :-) > I too read it as such, with the classic B&W movie showing Ollie & Stan trying to move a piano up a Los Angeles hill (The Music Box - 1932) playing in my mind... http://www.veoh.com/browse/videos/category/comedy/watch/v17189795Kr6n8XDr (an ad at the front but good otherwise) Dismantling equipment is how we move larger stuff as well...don't quite have a 747 dedicated to moving shuttles around in our warehouse. John ;-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From jws at jwsss.com Thu Jan 14 19:14:55 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 17:14:55 -0800 Subject: was Lack of Posts on alt.sys.pdp11 .. Archives In-Reply-To: <201001150057.o0F0vC6I009484@floodgap.com> References: <201001150057.o0F0vC6I009484@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4B4FC18F.1060401@jwsss.com> does anyone have any status on what was on google archives. I had heard that they were purged or were pruned at any rate. I know of groups such as the one on the RT that had a lot of good information that would be a shame to loose. Also a search for postings there by Don Maslin might give hints where his images came from or went to if one were rebuilding the collection. Only if it were complete though. Jim From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Jan 15 03:40:17 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 07:40:17 -0200 Subject: Z80 CP/M and 6809 CUBIX homebrew computer References: Message-ID: <81f201ca95c6$de8e9570$0101a8c0@Alexandre> > http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/f/n8vem_case_nb.JPG Beautiful! Love the duo of super-5 apple drives on top right :D From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jan 15 06:45:28 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 06:45:28 -0600 Subject: small-cap SCSI was Re: Collections In-Reply-To: <65E51A69FEB94431BE5C209E8B5D0F26@dell8300> References: <201001150434.o0F4YpeG012774@floodgap.com> <65E51A69FEB94431BE5C209E8B5D0F26@dell8300> Message-ID: <201001151246.o0FCkbpF089907@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 11:19 PM 1/14/2010, Teo Zenios wrote: >Oddly enough even scrappers seem to want a bunch of money for small old SCSI and IDE drives, for me it is cheaper just to get a whole laptop or desktop with a drive then just the drive itself (same source). Sounds like your scrapper knows how to run his business. :-) - John From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Jan 15 08:01:15 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 09:01:15 -0500 Subject: small-cap SCSI was Re: Collections In-Reply-To: References: <201001150434.o0F4YpeG012774@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4B50752B.3030100@verizon.net> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 8:34 PM -0800 1/14/10, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> > > Good heavens. On what planet are SCSI drives rare? And on what >>> > planet are they inexpensive? >>> >>> Mostly just repeating what I saw here about 50 pin SCSI hard drives >>> of less than 10 GB. When I finally managed to purchase a few such >>> drives about 10 years ago, they were not that easy to find at a low >>> price. >> >> This is true. While they may be around, they are much harder to actually >> get. > > The machines that used these are basically gone. The machines and > drives that are still around are likely to be in the hands of > collectors like us, or else in the stockpiles of resellers. I know I > have a nice small collection for my PDP-11's. > > Zane > > Amazing.. I have a pile of sub 1gb drives like RZ's in the 50-600mb range. Must be a local thing. Allison From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Jan 15 08:46:53 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 09:46:53 -0500 Subject: small-cap SCSI was Re: Collections In-Reply-To: <4B50752B.3030100@verizon.net> References: <201001150434.o0F4YpeG012774@floodgap.com> <4B50752B.3030100@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B507FDD.2060408@compsys.to> >Allison wrote: >>>> Mostly just repeating what I saw here about 50 pin SCSI hard drives >>>> of less than 10 GB. When I finally managed to purchase a few such >>>> drives about 10 years ago, they were not that easy to find at a >>>> low price. >>> >>> This is true. While they may be around, they are much harder to >>> actually >>> get. >> >> The machines that used these are basically gone. The machines and >> drives that are still around are likely to be in the hands of >> collectors like us, or else in the stockpiles of resellers. I know I >> have a nice small collection for my PDP-11's. >> Zane > > Amazing.. I have a pile of sub 1gb drives like RZ's in the 50-600mb > range. Must be a > local thing. > Allison Likewise! But most of my SCSI drives are the 2 GB Seagate ST32550N. I have a question???? I would like to use them as an interchange between the DEC PDP-11/83 and the PC running Windows XP. My experience with Windows 98SE was that the drive would NOT be recognized (not be available to be used) if there was not a Windows type "format" for the drive - which in DEC terms means a format and initialization. The way I worked around this under Windows 98SE was to use a Sony SMO S-501 Magneto Optical Drive with a removable media. If both the drives were connected to the SCSI bus and the ST32550N drive was powered down and the S-501 drive powered up without a media, then Windows 98SE allowed me to power down the S-501 and power up the ST32550N without crashing the operating system. The ST32550N was still recognized and I could use Ersatz-11 to: MOUNT DU0: SCSIn: followed by reading the ST32550N drive under RT-11. Can anyone suggest if this will work under Windows XP? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Jan 15 09:18:59 2010 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 10:18:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <4B4FBA4F.3090009@compsys.to> References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net><6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com><4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> , <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> <4B4EB3F7.5020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4F30EF.7020906@compsys.to> <4B4F51DC.8080105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4FBA4F.3090009@compsys.to> Message-ID: What is it about this PDP-8/L that makes it so valuable, to a few at least? Ebay #230423600012 Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jan 15 09:37:48 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 07:37:48 -0800 Subject: small-cap SCSI was Re: Collections In-Reply-To: <4B507FDD.2060408@compsys.to> References: <201001150434.o0F4YpeG012774@floodgap.com> <4B50752B.3030100@verizon.net> <4B507FDD.2060408@compsys.to> Message-ID: At 9:46 AM -0500 1/15/10, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Allison wrote: >>>The machines that used these are basically gone. The machines and >>>drives that are still around are likely to be in the hands of >>>collectors like us, or else in the stockpiles of resellers. I >>>know I have a nice small collection for my PDP-11's. >>>Zane >> >>Amazing.. I have a pile of sub 1gb drives like RZ's in the 50-600mb >>range. Must be a >>local thing. >>Allison Allison, think about where you live. :-) Except for the stash of NIB RZ25's in my garage they're rare as hens teeth around here. Sort of like how PDT-11's are ultra-rare around here (I do have one), but common for you. >Likewise! But most of my SCSI drives are the 2 GB Seagate ST32550N. Jerome, let me guess, they're out of old Sun workstations? That's where my stash of those is from. These are my primary drive for PDP-11's, but I also have a small stash of 100MB and 200MB drives from IBM PC's. I cleaned a guy out at a swap meet that had scrapped a load of PS/2's about 12 years ago, but had saved the drives. Sadly/thankfully the swap meet is gone, and *ALL* of my junk dealer contacts have dried up in the past few years. Of course only one of my collection of Alpha's actually came from locally, and a fair amount of my DEC gear was purchased through a dealer. The other thing is, anymore I really don't have the money to spend on this junk. >Can anyone suggest if this will work under Windows XP? I can't, though I think it would work under Linux. I've used Linux and Solaris for reading PDP-11 SCSI drives. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jan 15 09:40:28 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 07:40:28 -0800 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net><6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@ mail.gmail.com><4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> , <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> <4B4EB3F7.5020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4F30EF.7020906@compsys.to> <4B4F51DC.8080105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4FBA4F.3090009@compsys.to> Message-ID: At 10:18 AM -0500 1/15/10, Mike Loewen wrote: > What is it about this PDP-8/L that makes it so valuable, to a few at least? > >Ebay #230423600012 So far that's cheap. I expect it will go for quite a bit more than the current bid of about $2500. Even a fairly common PDP-8/e/f/m can go for quite a bit, though no where near that much. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pontus at update.uu.se Fri Jan 15 10:55:17 2010 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 17:55:17 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net><6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com><4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> , <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> <4B4EB3F7.5020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4F30EF.7020906@compsys.to> <4B4F51DC.8080105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4FBA4F.3090009@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4B509DF5.80101@update.uu.se> Mike Loewen wrote: > > What is it about this PDP-8/L that makes it so valuable, to a few > at least? > > Ebay #230423600012 > > It's slightly smaller than the PDP-8/I but compared to the e/f/m it offers the small neat flip-chips and lots of blinkenlights. I think that appeals to certain people (like me). Also they are less common than the e/f/m. I would want one, but that is to steep for me :) /P From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Jan 15 11:25:14 2010 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 09:25:14 -0800 Subject: small-cap SCSI was Re: Collections In-Reply-To: <4B507FDD.2060408@compsys.to> References: <201001150434.o0F4YpeG012774@floodgap.com> <4B50752B.3030100@verizon.net> <4B507FDD.2060408@compsys.to> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e91001150925nc757f2es2d1a566b740a5d12@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 6:46 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > I have a question???? ?I would like to use them as an interchange between > the DEC ?PDP-11/83 and the PC running Windows XP. ?My experience > with Windows 98SE was that the drive would NOT be recognized (not > be available to be used) if there was not a Windows type "format" for > the drive - which in DEC terms means a format and initialization. If you boot your Windows XP system with the SCSI drive attached and run Disk Management (type diskmgmt.msc in a command prompt window) and if the drive shows up there you should be able to do a raw read or write of the drive without there being a recognized filesystem on the drive or a drive letter assigned to the drive. If you get a prompt about needing to write a signature to the drive you want to cancel that. I wrote some simple code to do a raw read or write of a SCSI drive by modifying the SCSI Pass Through Interface sample in the Windows Driver Kit. I did this specifically so I could write a disk image generated using SIMH to a physical SCSI disk to use with a physical PDP-11. There must be other free tools out there for doing raw reads or writes of disks when running Windows. I didn't bother looking for any as it was just as easy to write my own. If what you really want to do is access the physical SCSI disk directly from the simulator when running Windows instead of creating an image of the physical disk first and then accessing the disk image from the simulator, that would depend on whether the simulator supported doing that. -Glen From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 15 11:27:50 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 12:27:50 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net><6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com><4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> , <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> <4B4EB3F7.5020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4F30EF.7020906@compsys.to> <4B4F51DC.8080105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4FBA4F.3090009@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Jan 15, 2010, at 10:18 AM, Mike Loewen wrote: > What is it about this PDP-8/L that makes it so valuable, to a > few at least? > > Ebay #230423600012 The fact that it's an 8/L. ;) It's going to go for quite a bit more than its current bid. Dammit. What a time to be broke! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 15 11:30:16 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 12:30:16 -0500 Subject: Collections:thinning out In-Reply-To: <4B4FC843.1070205@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net><6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com><4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> , <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> <4B4EB3F7.5020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4F30EF.7020906@compsys.to> <4B4F51DC.8080105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4FBA4F.3090009@compsys.to> <4B4FC843.1070205@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3188C5EB-85B5-4D63-A916-7C6EE8864745@neurotica.com> On Jan 14, 2010, at 8:43 PM, Ben wrote: > Bookmarked until the next PC crash! Why on earth do people use systems like that? Unbelievable. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 15 11:35:20 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 12:35:20 -0500 Subject: Lack of Posts on alt.sys.pdp11 and vmsnet.pdp-11 In-Reply-To: References: <201001142124.o0ELOqiT009712@floodgap.com> <375634.1931.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <57393AF3-53BD-48A0-901F-4F839B17ED9C@neurotica.com> On Jan 14, 2010, at 5:07 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Actually come to think of it my "ISP" is no longer my ISP, but > rather a > company I pay for Shell, email, USENET, and light web hosting. Some of those sound like Internet Services to me. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 15 12:23:10 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 13:23:10 -0500 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jan 13, 2010, at 1:57 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> lucky, he only lost one arm. It is better to see a nice piece of >> equipment smashed than be smashed under it which is something I >> always >> try to remember. > > I am not at all convincced about that. People have a wonderful > self-repair system, classic computers tend not to. I'd rather suffer a > major injory than loose an irreplaceable classic computer... While I'd not agree with "major", I'd agree otherwise. I'm not about to sacrifice a limb, but I don't mind bruises, muscle strain, or even fairly major cuts, to protect the equipment. I'd not complain about broken bones for any IBM 360-family machine. I will heal...the equipment won't! I don't mind making sacrifices for the stuff that is personally important to me. One thing I've never been able to wrap my brain around is some of the psychological aspects of this gang. Many people here scream so loudly about how "crazy" it is when things are worth real money, about how unimportant this stuff is, calling it a "hobby" like it's a purely recreational activity, etc. Do you guys REALLY think the preservation and study of the stuff that has literally changed every aspect of human life is such a bad thing to take seriously? After typing that, it occurred to me that there are actually people here who only do this for recreational purposes, and there are actually people here who had never seen or used (say) a PDP-11 when they were current technology. I suppose I need to wrap my brain around those concepts. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jan 15 12:28:13 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 10:28:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: from Dave McGuire at "Jan 15, 10 01:23:10 pm" Message-ID: <201001151828.o0FISDZO008786@floodgap.com> > After typing that, it occurred to me that there are actually > people here who only do this for recreational purposes, and there are > actually people here who had never seen or used (say) a PDP-11 when > they were current technology. I suppose I need to wrap my brain > around those concepts. I have never used a PDP-11 when it was current, and I only do this for recreational purposes (I just don't know when to stop ;-). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TRUE HEADLINE: Morning-After Pill Decision Delayed ------------------------- From sethm at loomcom.com Fri Jan 15 12:30:20 2010 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 18:30:20 +0000 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: References: <4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> <4B4EB3F7.5020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4F30EF.7020906@compsys.to> <4B4F51DC.8080105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4FBA4F.3090009@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20100115183020.GA13164@mail.loomcom.com> * On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 10:18:59AM -0500, Mike Loewen wrote: > > What is it about this PDP-8/L that makes it so valuable, to a few > at least? Basic economics, really. It's rare. It's the first 8/L I've ever seen come up for sale on eBay, though I'm sure others have change hands privately. Rare + DEC = Very Collectible, and therefore there is much more demand than supply. Supply will never go up. Demand will. 20 years ago, of course, you could probably have gotten it for free, or for scrap value. But it's not 20 years ago (more's the pity!) -Seth From doc at vaxen.net Fri Jan 15 12:40:35 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 12:40:35 -0600 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B4F7AF5.9040801@jwsss.com> References: <4B4F7AF5.9040801@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4B50B6A3.5030203@vaxen.net> jim s wrote: > > > Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Well, presumably she could have summoned help. >> THis reminds me of a rule I don't think I've ever broken. If you are >> working on live high-voltaeg stuff, make sure there's somebody else >> with you who knows how to turn off the power and fetch help if you do >> connect yourself across the amins. >> -tony >> > I never work on anything w/o a cutoff that I completely control (know > who is in a house for instance, and where they are, and cut the power > with knowledge that they won't turn it back on on me) or where I can > padlock the mains off. Same goes for gas. A fellow I know was > working on a furnace and someone turned on the gas on him because he had > not padlocked it. Not fun. I was 30 feet off the floor working on a bridge crane once, and a laborer on the ground: 1) Removed the red flag tying the fuse-box closed** 2) Installed the 2 fuses I had removed from the crane circuit 3) Threw the crossbar switch, and 4) Walked back over to the control pendant and started moving the bridge down the shop. All without ever looking up, or apparently even removing his brain from his anus. I was VERY fortunate that I didn't have my hands anywhere near current or moving parts, but I was sitting on the edge of the bridge and damn near fell off when it started moving. The guy that did it was quite offended when I started throwing tools at him. ** There were 2 emergency stop buttons INSIDE that box, so I wasn't allowed to padlock it. The silver lining to this incident was that my company finally agreed to move them out of the fuse box. Doc From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 15 12:45:48 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 10:45:48 -0800 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4B50475C.15211.30F5DF@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jan 2010 at 13:23, Dave McGuire wrote: > After typing that, it occurred to me that there are actually > people here who only do this for recreational purposes, and there are > actually people here who had never seen or used (say) a PDP-11 when > they were current technology. I suppose I need to wrap my brain > around those concepts. Indeed. One of the things that I ask myself when a piece of old gear presents itself is "What would I use it for now?". "Parts" is usually the only answer that makes sense. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jan 15 12:47:21 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 11:47:21 -0700 Subject: Collections:thinning out In-Reply-To: <3188C5EB-85B5-4D63-A916-7C6EE8864745@neurotica.com> References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net><6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com><4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> , <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> <4B4EB3F7.5020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4F30EF.7020906@compsys.to> <4B4F51DC.8080105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4FBA4F.3090009@compsys.to> <4B4FC843.1070205@jetnet.ab.ca> <3188C5EB-85B5-4D63-A916-7C6EE8864745@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B50B839.3020007@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 14, 2010, at 8:43 PM, Ben wrote: >> Bookmarked until the next PC crash! > > Why on earth do people use systems like that? Unbelievable. Well I do want play a few PC games now and then.My problem is I can back up my local data,but not my applications under windows. > -Dave Now if I can find somebody to sell me a PDP11/23 with memory and HD then I could run a more sane OS. Ben. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jan 15 12:48:27 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 13:48:27 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: References: <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> <4B4EB3F7.5020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4F30EF.7020906@compsys.to> <4B4F51DC.8080105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4FBA4F.3090009@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 10:18 AM, Mike Loewen wrote: > > ? What is it about this PDP-8/L that makes it so valuable, to a few at > least? > > Ebay #230423600012 DEC made about 4000 of those (http://www.faqs.org/faqs/dec-faq/pdp8/section-6.html) - more than some models, less than others. Part of what makes them desirable is that they are now over 40 years old and when found, usually complete enough to run and quite portable. They use individual TTL chips, so they are somewhat easy to repair (I've fixed several), and of them have core memory (unlike later models which might or might not). My first -8 experience was with an -8/L. As I've posted many times about this exact model, in 1982, they weren't expensive (mine cost $35 and some swap goods) because they were "old". Add 28 years of demand going up and the supply going down and you have these sorts of prices (others, perhaps on this very list, had similar experiences with the PDP-8/S a few years before that - same effect, but with more scarcity). The -8/L sold new in 1968 for $10,000 (1968) dollars - it's still cheaper now. -ethan From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Jan 15 12:56:25 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 12:56:25 -0600 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B50B6A3.5030203@vaxen.net> References: <4B4F7AF5.9040801@jwsss.com> <4B50B6A3.5030203@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001151056l37d56044i7dc943e69bfcabbc@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 12:40 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: > jim s wrote: >> I never work on anything w/o a cutoff that I completely control (know who >> is in a house for instance, and where they are, and cut the power with >> knowledge that they won't turn it back on on me) or where I can padlock the >> ?mains off. ?Same goes for gas. ?A fellow I know was ?working on a furnace >> and someone turned on the gas on him because he had not padlocked it. ?Not >> fun. I was doing plumbing work in my condo about 20 years ago. I took apart the shower valve (one of these push/pull turn for temperature thingies) so that i could fix a leak. After getting it apart, my neighbor turned the water back on. I had a powerful jet of water shooting across the shower and hitting the tile above the foot of the tub, then spraying everywhere. After much discussion and yelling at each other, we determined that a plumber had fixed a slab leak by tying the water supply from both our units together to a single valve. Her valve wasn't hooked up to anything anymore. It was only water. But there's all kinds of crazy tradesmen out there. As a side note, the reason she was mad at me was because she assumed that I couldn't tell which one was mine, so I just turned them all off. Thanks for the vote of confidence. :-/ I'm also reminded of the time I was working at IBM. The power went out for our entire office building. We looked out the window and could follow the line of orange flags a couple hundred feet to a backhoe. I guess even when you mark where the wires are, that's no guarantee. brian From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 15 12:59:47 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 10:59:47 -0800 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B50B6A3.5030203@vaxen.net> References: , <4B4F7AF5.9040801@jwsss.com>, <4B50B6A3.5030203@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4B504AA3.15759.3DC115@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jan 2010 at 12:40, Doc Shipley wrote: > I was 30 feet off the floor working on a bridge crane once, and a > laborer on the ground: Decades ago, when I worked in heavy industry, every electrician or related craft (e.g., pyrometer technician) was issued a lock and a tag with their clock number on it. Under no circumstances were you to work on any electrical equipment (with the exception of testing and calibration) without throwing the associated disconnect and locking and tagging it. Failure to do so would likely earn you unpaid vacation days. There are just too many idiots running around loose. (Then there's the time when I was 10 feet away when an overhead crane dropped a 20 ton coil of steel right through the floor...) Cheers, Chuck From sethm at loomcom.com Fri Jan 15 13:08:33 2010 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 19:08:33 +0000 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100115190832.GA13442@mail.loomcom.com> * On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 01:23:10PM -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > After typing that, it occurred to me that there are actually > people here who only do this for recreational purposes, and there > are actually people here who had never seen or used (say) a PDP-11 > when they were current technology. I suppose I need to wrap my > brain around those concepts. It really is a diverse crowd. I have no rational explanation for my love of old DEC equipment. Most of it is before my time. I grew up in the heyday of home computer proliferation in the early 1980s, and never touched a computer before being introduced to a brand-spanking-new Tandy TRS-80 model III in grade school. But I suspect having seen "real" DEC computer installations at the University of Connecticut in the early 80s must have had some effect on me, and probably instilled the curiosity in computer history that eventually led to a lot of building spelunking in college. [As an aside, I'm still extremely bitter about what happened to the DEC collection I and some friends amassed while I was a student at Cornell. We'd been finding PDP-11s, peripherals, DEC terminals, even a MINC-11, and had convinced the responsible parties to let us have them for free - they were just going to the scrappers after all. We'd collected them together in the common area of our dormatory as an impromptu display, and to have a nice area to hack on them. Then winter break happened. At some point over the break, the dorm staff decided it was all garbage and had the lot carted off and thrown away. I was understandably quite angry - more at myself than at them. If only we'd put them in our rooms over the break... ] > -Dave -Seth From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 15 13:16:43 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 11:16:43 -0800 Subject: Power outages, was:Re: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381001151056l37d56044i7dc943e69bfcabbc@mail.gmail.com> References: , <4B50B6A3.5030203@vaxen.net>, <6dbe3c381001151056l37d56044i7dc943e69bfcabbc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B504E9B.15999.4D41D5@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jan 2010 at 12:56, Brian Lanning wrote: >> I'm also reminded of the time I was working at IBM. The power went > out for our entire office building. We looked out the window and > could follow the line of orange flags a couple hundred feet to a > backhoe. I guess even when you mark where the wires are, that's no > guarantee. About 6 years ago, the local utility decided to redo all of the power distribution in the neighborhood. It's basically 6600V direct-bury cable, with a disconnect box at the head of, and branch wiring buried along one's driveway to a transformer sitting on a pad in the front yard. All of this was being replaced. The utility didn't want to disconnect the loop for two weeks while they worked on it so they did live replacement of segments. About 3 or 4 times a day, you'd hear a loud "bang" when the backhoe hit the live wiring--the power would go off until someone reset the distribution breaker. Apparently this is the way things are done routinely by my utility. When Silicon Valley was going through its 70's commercial building craze, the power would often go out at the CDC facility in Sunnyvale. When the lights went out and the machines fell silent, you'd hear a collective groan on the machine floor, people would grab their cards and tapes and head back to the cubes, because you weren't going to see any system up for at least the rest of the day. Overtime for the CE's, however was good news. --Chuck From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Jan 15 15:15:38 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 22:15:38 +0100 Subject: Collections:thinning out In-Reply-To: <4B50B839.3020007@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net> <6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com> <4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> <4B4EB3F7.5020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4F30EF.7020906@compsys.to> <4B4F51DC.8080105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4FBA4F.3090009@compsys.to> <4B4FC843.1070205@jetnet.ab.ca> <3188C5EB-85B5-4D63-A916-7C6EE8864745@neurotica.com> <4B50B839.3020007@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20100115221538.cf907c69.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 15 Jan 2010 11:47:21 -0700 Ben wrote: > Well I do want play a few PC games now and then.My problem is > I can back up my local data,but not my applications under windows. Use Windows only for gameing. Use some Unix like Linux or *BSD (or MacOS X) for everything else. Where is the problem? Dual booting a PeeCee is't black magic. I stoped using Windows 17 years ago. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 15 14:36:30 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 20:36:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B4F7AF5.9040801@jwsss.com> from "jim s" at Jan 14, 10 12:13:41 pm Message-ID: > I never work on anything w/o a cutoff that I completely control (know Agreed. Having power suddenly come on when you're working on something is not at all pleasant. For fixed wiring, I remove the appropriate fuse and keep it in my pocket. A switch can be 'accidentally' turned on. it's difficult to accifentally find the right sort of fuse carrier and insert it. For electrical/electronic devices with a built-in mains lead, I've been known to remove the cartridge fuse from the plug , just in case some homicidal lunatic decides to plug it in while I'm working on the device. The sort of things I work on are small enough that if there's a removeable mains lead (e.g. going into an IEC connector), I would notice somebody trying to plug one of those in when I was working on the instrument. One other thing I won't do (and it has nothing to do with classic computers) is work under a car unless it is supported on proper axle stands or ramps (depending on whether I need to remove the wheels). No way will I get under a car on a jack only. BTW, this doesn't contrdict my earlier statement that I consider some classic computers to be more caluable than I am. I have no intention of taking unnecsssary risks... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 15 15:20:22 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 21:20:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B50B6A3.5030203@vaxen.net> from "Doc Shipley" at Jan 15, 10 12:40:35 pm Message-ID: > I was 30 feet off the floor working on a bridge crane once, and a > laborer on the ground: > > 1) Removed the red flag tying the fuse-box closed** > > 2) Installed the 2 fuses I had removed from the crane circuit > > 3) Threw the crossbar switch, and One think I knew before I even went to school is that you _never_ turn on an isolator switch unless you are darn sure it's safe for everyone if you do so. Peirod. > > 4) Walked back over to the control pendant and started moving the bridge > down the shop. > > All without ever looking up, or apparently even removing his brain > from his anus. > > I was VERY fortunate that I didn't have my hands anywhere near > current or moving parts, but I was sitting on the edge of the bridge and > damn near fell off when it started moving. > > The guy that did it was quite offended when I started throwing tools > at him. I think that idiot should have eneded up being supseded from the crane. You can choose how you decide to do this :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 15 15:17:03 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 21:17:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Jan 15, 10 01:23:10 pm Message-ID: > > On Jan 13, 2010, at 1:57 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> lucky, he only lost one arm. It is better to see a nice piece of > >> equipment smashed than be smashed under it which is something I > >> always > >> try to remember. > > > > I am not at all convincced about that. People have a wonderful > > self-repair system, classic computers tend not to. I'd rather suffer a > > major injory than loose an irreplaceable classic computer... > > While I'd not agree with "major", I'd agree otherwise. I'm not I did say 'irreplacable classic computer' :-). I am not going to risk major injury for something like a C64, or even a VAXstation (which are not that rate), but for soemthing like a PDP10 or a PDP12, I probably would. Of course I would take all the precautions I could, I wouldn't try to move the machine in one piece, I'd check it over very carefgully before connecting mains, and so on. But in the end, I would consider such a machine to be valuable enoguh to risk injury to save. > about to sacrifice a limb, but I don't mind bruises, muscle strain, > or even fairly major cuts, to protect the equipment. I'd not Minor cuts/bruises/strains/burns are, alas, something that happens all too frequenctly. (particuarly the cuts and burns...) I try to avoid them, of course, but they happen. > complain about broken bones for any IBM 360-family machine. I will > heal...the equipment won't! I don't mind making sacrifices for the > stuff that is personally important to me. > > One thing I've never been able to wrap my brain around is some of > the psychological aspects of this gang. Many people here scream so > loudly about how "crazy" it is when things are worth real money, Actually, I wish the mecahnes _weren't_ worth 'real money'. I never intend to sell any of my collection, so the increase in value hasn't helped me there. It's just made it more difficult for me to obtain more interresting devices. > about how unimportant this stuff is, calling it a "hobby" like it's a > purely recreational activity, etc. Do you guys REALLY think the > preservation and study of the stuff that has literally changed every > aspect of human life is such a bad thing to take seriously? To me it is a hobby (meaning something I do in my spere time and not for finanical gain). I am an amateur (meaning somebody who does it because I love it -- check the latin origins of the word), but an amateur can be knowedgable and skilled (I am not claiming to be either...). But this doesn't mean I don't take it seriously. > After typing that, it occurred to me that there are actually > people here who only do this for recreational purposes, and there are > actually people here who had never seen or used (say) a PDP-11 when Actually, I fit both of those. I do it because I enjoy it, and the first PDP11 I really saw was the 11/45 I own. I knew what a PDP11 was long before that, of course, and wanted one. But there have been many machines that I didn't even know existed before I obtained one. -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jan 15 15:39:44 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 14:39:44 -0700 Subject: Collections:thinning out In-Reply-To: <20100115221538.cf907c69.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net> <6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com> <4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> <4B4EB3F7.5020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4F30EF.7020906@compsys.to> <4B4F51DC.8080105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4FBA4F.3090009@compsys.to> <4B4FC843.1070205@jetnet.ab.ca> <3188C5EB-85B5-4D63-A916-7C6EE8864745@neurotica.com> <4B50B839.3020007@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100115221538.cf907c69.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4B50E0A0.3070807@jetnet.ab.ca> Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Fri, 15 Jan 2010 11:47:21 -0700 > Ben wrote: > >> Well I do want play a few PC games now and then.My problem is >> I can back up my local data,but not my applications under windows. > Use Windows only for gameing. > Use some Unix like Linux or *BSD (or MacOS X) for everything else. > Where is the problem? Dual booting a PeeCee is't black magic. > I stoped using Windows 17 years ago. I have a few apps that are free - low cost compared to linux/unix apps. The other problem is I could never get X-windows to window right on that apps that used them, or a linux version I liked. Right now I would like to find out about getting "THE WOODWRIGHT'S SHOP" PBS videos, on VHS tapes, rather than a copy of linux since VHS tapes are vanishing quickly, and linux will be around a few more years. Ben. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jan 15 15:43:54 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 13:43:54 -0800 Subject: Rom Emulator In-Reply-To: <4B509DF5.80101@update.uu.se> References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net><6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com><4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> , , <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to>,<4B4EB3F7.5020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4F30EF.7020906@compsys.to>,<4B4F51DC.8080105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4FBA4F.3090009@compsys.to>, , <4B509DF5.80101@update.uu.se> Message-ID: Hi I just got from our scrap pile, a Abi ROM emulator. I got no instruction manual but it looks like I can download a current release from the web. I've not used one of these before but this looks like a great debug tool since one could create small programs to run specific debug test and stick it into systems without blowing EPROM ( always a drag ). I've always though it would be great to have one but never could justify the several hundred bucks to buy one. The one thing I wonder about is that the company is still selling this unit as an ISA board interface. I'm surprised they haven't come up to PCI or USB. I'm sure there is a larger market for an inexpensive USB unit. For me, I'm quite happy with the ISA board. I keep a system running just to work with my EMP10 programmer ( that I love ). I'd guess out bringup group is tossing it because they no longer even have a machine with a ISA slot in it. Does anyone else have any experience with the Abi units? I am missing a 40 pin cable but that I can make. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390706/direct/01/ From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Jan 15 15:55:50 2010 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 13:55:50 -0800 Subject: Qbus SCSI host adapters [was: Re: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks] Message-ID: <1e1fc3e91001151355q16ffacdcia5feab03e2946e4@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > On the other hand, eBay has no Qbus SCSI host adapters, although > I am confident that 3rd party Qbus dealers have many for sale. > > I suspect that for a company (not a hobby user) willing > to pay the cost, a Qbus SCSI host adapter can easily be found. > I can let you know a general range, but I suspect that $ 1000 > might not be too much for some of these boards at quantity one. > They do show up on eBay at reasonable prices from time to time. There are a couple of CQD-423/TM on eBay now that have been there for a while. Well under $1000, but more than most people would pay. I think it was a list member that recently sold a CQD-220/TM for around $100 on eBay. A couple of months ago I got a CQD-223/T off of eBay for around $60, which I then turned into a CQD-223/TM. An AVIV QSA S-box handle disk/tape SCSI adapter just went for $70 on eBay. Maybe the S-box handle adapters are less valuable to most people as they cannot be directly installed in a BA23 or similar without modification. -Glen From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 15 15:59:17 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 16:59:17 -0500 Subject: Collections:thinning out In-Reply-To: <4B50E0A0.3070807@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net> <6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com> <4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> <4B4EB3F7.5020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4F30EF.7020906@compsys.to> <4B4F51DC.8080105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4FBA4F.3090009@compsys.to> <4B4FC843.1070205@jetnet.ab.ca> <3188C5EB-85B5-4D63-A916-7C6EE8864745@neurotica.com> <4B50B839.3020007@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100115221538.cf907c69.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4B50E0A0.3070807@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <9689703B-F163-4591-9162-679CACC3A649@neurotica.com> On Jan 15, 2010, at 4:39 PM, Ben wrote: >> Ben wrote: >> >>> Well I do want play a few PC games now and then.My problem is >>> I can back up my local data,but not my applications under windows. >> Use Windows only for gameing. >> Use some Unix like Linux or *BSD (or MacOS X) for everything else. >> Where is the problem? Dual booting a PeeCee is't black magic. >> I stoped using Windows 17 years ago. > > I have a few apps that are free - low cost compared to linux/unix > apps. ??! > The other problem is I could never get X-windows to window right on > that > apps that used them, I use X all day, every day, have for 20+ years...no problems here. WTF? > or a linux version I liked. Forgive me, but is this just a "this looks different from what I'm used to so I don't like it" situation? > Right now I would like to find out about getting "THE WOODWRIGHT'S > SHOP" > PBS videos, on VHS tapes, rather than a copy of linux since VHS > tapes are vanishing quickly, and linux will be around a few more > years. Ok you totally lost me here. Somehow getting some VHS tapes or downloading Linux disk images are mutually exclusive? -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 15 16:00:58 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 17:00:58 -0500 Subject: Qbus SCSI host adapters [was: Re: Collections, was: Be careful handling computer racks] In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e91001151355q16ffacdcia5feab03e2946e4@mail.gmail.com> References: <1e1fc3e91001151355q16ffacdcia5feab03e2946e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8031D32F-2A5B-4023-9622-E8A232CFD1A5@neurotica.com> On Jan 15, 2010, at 4:55 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > I think it was a list member that recently sold a CQD-220/TM for > around $100 on eBay. Yep, that was me. I was pissed because the previous one (a few weeks prior) went for about $200. I only sold it to pay the power bill, and $100 doesn't put much of a dent in that. *grumble* -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From doc at vaxen.net Fri Jan 15 16:36:29 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 16:36:29 -0600 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B50EDED.5050708@vaxen.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> I was 30 feet off the floor working on a bridge crane once, and a >> laborer on the ground: >> >> 1) Removed the red flag tying the fuse-box closed** >> >> 2) Installed the 2 fuses I had removed from the crane circuit >> >> 3) Threw the crossbar switch, and > > One think I knew before I even went to school is that you _never_ turn on > an isolator switch unless you are darn sure it's safe for everyone if you > do so. Peirod. > >> The guy that did it was quite offended when I started throwing tools >> at him. > > I think that idiot should have eneded up being supseded from the crane. > You can choose how you decide to do this :-) Actually, he got fired about 20 minutes later. Not for trying to kill me, but for swearing at a supervisor.... He ran to the foreman and told him "You need to fire that crazy mother****er!" When the foreman asked why and he said "All I did was turn the bridge crane back on; I didn't know he was up there!" the boss told him he needed to get gone before I got down to floor level and took the matter to the front office. Turned out that they couldn't fire him for almost killing me, as throwing the switch on me wasn't an immediate termination offense, but saying "mother****er" to a supervisor was! Doc From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 15 16:39:51 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 17:39:51 -0500 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B50EDED.5050708@vaxen.net> References: <4B50EDED.5050708@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <2DC9D7BF-E4C7-4FBB-93A9-AA38DDF5BB87@neurotica.com> On Jan 15, 2010, at 5:36 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: >> The guy that did it was quite offended when I started throwing >> tools at him. >> I think that idiot should have eneded up being supseded from the >> crane. You can choose how you decide to do this :-) > > Actually, he got fired about 20 minutes later. Not for trying to > kill me, but for swearing at a supervisor.... > > He ran to the foreman and told him "You need to fire that crazy > mother****er!" When the foreman asked why and he said "All I did > was turn the bridge crane back on; I didn't know he was up there!" > the boss told him he needed to get gone before I got down to floor > level and took the matter to the front office. > > Turned out that they couldn't fire him for almost killing me, as > throwing the switch on me wasn't an immediate termination offense, > but saying "mother****er" to a supervisor was! ROFL! Priceless! -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 15 16:40:55 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 14:40:55 -0800 Subject: Rom Emulator In-Reply-To: References: , <4B509DF5.80101@update.uu.se>, Message-ID: <4B507E77.23138.1083525@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jan 2010 at 13:43, dwight elvey wrote: > The one thing I wonder about is that the company is still selling this > unit as an ISA board interface. I'm surprised they haven't come up to > PCI or USB. I'm sure there is a larger market for an inexpensive USB > unit. In today's JTAG/SPI world, how large a market would that be, Dwight? Don't forget that there's money paid up front to USB-IF for a VID: $4K annually (membership) or $2K every two years (non-membership). Not to mention the cost of USB-IF compiliance testing if your device will carry the USB logo. Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jan 15 16:56:38 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 14:56:38 -0800 Subject: Rom Emulator In-Reply-To: <4B507E77.23138.1083525@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B509DF5.80101@update.uu.se>, , , <4B507E77.23138.1083525@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 14:40:55 -0800 > Subject: Re: Rom Emulator > > On 15 Jan 2010 at 13:43, dwight elvey wrote: > > > The one thing I wonder about is that the company is still selling this > > unit as an ISA board interface. I'm surprised they haven't come up to > > PCI or USB. I'm sure there is a larger market for an inexpensive USB > > unit. > > In today's JTAG/SPI world, how large a market would that be, Dwight? > > Don't forget that there's money paid up front to USB-IF for a VID: > $4K annually (membership) or $2K every two years (non-membership). > Not to mention the cost of USB-IF compiliance testing if your device > will carry the USB logo. > > Hi Chuck One should be able to by USB interface boards with things like PIC processor on them that is already licensed. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390708/direct/01/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 15 17:11:22 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 15:11:22 -0800 Subject: Rom Emulator In-Reply-To: References: , <4B507E77.23138.1083525@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B50859A.742.12414B4@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jan 2010 at 14:56, dwight elvey wrote: > One should be able to by USB interface boards with things like PIC > processor on them that is already licensed. Certainly. FTDI offers a vendor sub-licensing program for PIDs under the FTDI VID, but it has good and bad points: http://ftdichip.com/Documents/TechnicalNotes/TN_100_USB_VID- PID_Guidelines.pdf On my own devices, I've taken to supplying an RS232 interface and using a USB-to-serial adapter. It's not the fastest, but it's good enough for a lot of things. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 15 19:37:08 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 17:37:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100115173543.C15321@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 15 Jan 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > For electrical/electronic devices with a built-in mains lead, I've been > known to remove the cartridge fuse from the plug , just in case some > homicidal lunatic decides to plug it in while I'm working on the device. Putting the pug end of the lead into your pocket also works. (USA doesn't usually HAVE fuses within mains plugs!) From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 15 19:51:33 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 17:51:33 -0800 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <20100115173543.C15321@shell.lmi.net> References: , <20100115173543.C15321@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B50AB25.4683.1B6BBDB@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jan 2010 at 17:37, Fred Cisin wrote: > Putting the pug end of the lead into your pocket also works. > (USA doesn't usually HAVE fuses within mains plugs!) If I did that sort of thing routinely and had to work with idiots, I'd buy one of these: http://www.familysafemedia.com/powerstop_power_plug_lock.html --Chuck From v.slyngstad at verizon.net Fri Jan 15 20:05:36 2010 From: v.slyngstad at verizon.net (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 18:05:36 -0800 Subject: Large pdp-8/i on eBay Message-ID: <84C392B587EF45C8B03037CE0D634C57@vrsxp> Tim put his 8/i up on eBay a couple of hours ago. It's worth a look. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320475395861 Vince -- o< The ASCII Ribbon Campaign Against HTML Email! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jan 15 20:26:29 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 21:26:29 -0500 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <20100115173543.C15321@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100115173543.C15321@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > Putting the pug end of the lead into your pocket also works. > (USA doesn't usually HAVE fuses within mains plugs!) Mostly because there are no "mains" in the USA. It is called the "line". -- Will From ragooman at comcast.net Fri Jan 15 21:21:07 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 22:21:07 -0500 Subject: Announcement: CP/M Programming workshop,Sat.Apr.10.2010,12pm-7pm, Delaware Hackerspace Message-ID: <4B5130A3.8060807@comcast.net> Announcement: CP/M Programming workshop For the vintage computer enthusiasts, in conjunction with the MARCH Computer Museum and the Delaware Hackerspace group, we like to invite you to a new workshop this year involving vintage computers. This new workshop is about CP/M programming and it will teach you how to install, build and configure CP/M on your vintage S-100 computer system. All the necessary steps are shown during the lecture and afterward is a hands-on training session which will let you upgrade your S-100 computer with a floppy disk based system and CP/M. Instruction and lecture will be provided by Rich Cini of the Altair32 emulator project. Please look at the link below about the workshop checklist for a detailed list of requirements about this workshop. You'll need to know what to prepare beforehand to get ready for this workshop. Ask any questions you have about getting ready before the start of the workshop. A knowledge of assembly programming, S-100 hardware, and CP/M operation is required for this workshop. Please do not come unprepared. We currently have seats for 12 workbenches for those who want the hands-on training. An additional 10 seats are available for those who like to watch and learn. If we happen to get more requests for this workshop, we will try to accommodate as many people as possible. This is a first come, first serve event, sorry, but we cannot accommodate latecomers. Once the registration opens, please specify which seat you like to reserve. The workshop is located very close to I-95 for those that are driving. More information can be found at the Delaware Hackerspace website below. Workshop Checklist - view message thread http://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=310 Address: 103 W. 7th St. Wilmington, DE 19801 Registration open: Feb 1st, 2010 Signup deadline: April 1st, 2010 Workshop Date: April 10th, 2010 hours: Sat: 12noon - 7pm SPONSORS: Bill Degnan http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ Delaware Hackerspace http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/Delaware_Hackerspace Altair32 emulator project http://www.altair32.com/ MARCH Computer Museum http://www.midatlanticretro.org/ Please send any questions offline. Dan Roganti ragooman at comcast.net see you there ! ================================================== -- http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From toby at coreware.co.uk Sat Jan 16 02:32:44 2010 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 08:32:44 +0000 Subject: DEC H960 or similary rack needed in UK Message-ID: I'm planning on starting my PDP-9 replica build (see http://pdp9.co.uk for some pics) this year and the starting point of this will be to build a suitable 'wide' rack for the console to be fitted to. Does anyone in the UK have a spare DEC H960 or a similar 42U rack I could acquire? Thanks, Toby From quapla at xs4all.nl Sat Jan 16 09:30:26 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 16:30:26 +0100 Subject: Large pdp-8/i on eBay In-Reply-To: <84C392B587EF45C8B03037CE0D634C57@vrsxp> References: <84C392B587EF45C8B03037CE0D634C57@vrsxp> Message-ID: <506874a586e686f6d1c86a81f2516d56.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> It certainly is a nice machine and a tech savvy person should be able to get is fully up and running. My guess is that it will go for around 10k or so. Ed > Tim put his 8/i up on eBay a couple of hours ago. It's worth a > look. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320475395861 > > Vince > > -- > o< The ASCII Ribbon Campaign Against HTML Email! > > > -- Certified : VCP 3.x, SCSI 3.x SCSA S10, SCNA S10 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jan 16 09:38:14 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 08:38:14 -0700 Subject: DEC H960 or similary rack needed in UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B51DD66.7050802@jetnet.ab.ca> Tobias Russell wrote: > I'm planning on starting my PDP-9 replica build (see http://pdp9.co.uk for > some pics) this year and the starting point of this will be to build a > suitable 'wide' rack for the console to be fitted to. Does anyone in the UK > have a spare DEC H960 or a similar 42U rack I could acquire? I have no help with a rack, but this link may inspire some more hardware: http://homepage.mac.com/dgcx/pdp4x/ > Thanks, > Toby Ben. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jan 16 11:09:24 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 09:09:24 -0800 Subject: Sony OA-D32 Microfloppy service manual Message-ID: <4B51F2C4.6040301@bitsavers.org> up now under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/sony fairly obscure. was part of the ACT Apricot Service manual which is up now under appliedComputerTechniques From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Sat Jan 16 11:16:50 2010 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 18:16:50 +0100 Subject: ISA based DSP card available. Message-ID: <4B51F482.5070609@bluewin.ch> Available, for the cost of shipping, from Zurich Switzerland : A dual full length ISA card with a TMS340 DSP, ADC/DAC and some static memory. Was used for audio measurements in its day. Type Data Physics Coporation DP340-B and DP420 Jos Dreesen From toby at coreware.co.uk Sat Jan 16 11:48:19 2010 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 17:48:19 +0000 Subject: DEC H960 or similary rack needed in UK In-Reply-To: <4B51DD66.7050802@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4B51DD66.7050802@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: I have in the back of my mind a hardware implementation of the -9, possibly using TTL flip chips as I have lots of them plus a suitable load of backplanes, but for now its going to be SIMH talking to a PIC microcontroller driving the console and a paper tape drive. I figure keeping it simple to begin with should give the best chance of success. The real challenge will be to getting my TU55s talking to SIMH. This will be anything but simple. Thanks, Toby On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 3:38 PM, Ben wrote: > Tobias Russell wrote: > >> I'm planning on starting my PDP-9 replica build (see http://pdp9.co.ukfor >> some pics) this year and the starting point of this will be to build a >> suitable 'wide' rack for the console to be fitted to. Does anyone in the >> UK >> have a spare DEC H960 or a similar 42U rack I could acquire? >> > I have no help with a rack, but this link may inspire some more hardware: > http://homepage.mac.com/dgcx/pdp4x/ > > Thanks, >> Toby >> > Ben. > > > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 16 12:21:02 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 18:21:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Rom Emulator In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Jan 15, 10 01:43:54 pm Message-ID: > > > Hi > I just got from our scrap pile=2C a Abi ROM emulator. I got no instruction > manual but it looks like I can download a current release from the web. > I've not used one of these before but this looks like a great debug > tool since one could create small programs to run specific debug test > and stick it into systems without blowing EPROM ( always a drag ). An EPROM emuloetor is certainly a very useful thing to have. I built one [1] some 21 years ago (actually a combined emulator/programmer) and have used it a lot. As you said, it sure beats burning an EPROM time and again. [1] 3 boards of TTL logic, RAM, and a dumb UART. A microcontroller would have made life a lot easier, but how the heck could I program the firmware ROM for that without a programmer :-). > I've always though it would be great to have one but never could > justify the several hundred bucks to buy one. There have been sevearl designs in magazines ove the years. My favourite was in Elektor, it was just RAM and a handful of TTL parts. It was loaded from a Centronics printer port, > The one thing I wonder about is that the company is still selling this > unit as an ISA board interface. I'm surprised they haven't come up to > PCI or USB. I'm sure there is a larger market for an inexpensive USB > unit. I've seen plenty of them with RS232 or Centronics host interfaces. I assume they can be used with the appropriate USB converter cable, but for obvious reasons I've not tried. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 16 12:26:41 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 18:26:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <20100115173543.C15321@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jan 15, 10 05:37:08 pm Message-ID: > > On Fri, 15 Jan 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > For electrical/electronic devices with a built-in mains lead, I've been > > known to remove the cartridge fuse from the plug , just in case some > > homicidal lunatic decides to plug it in while I'm working on the device. > > Putting the pug end of the lead into your pocket also works. I haev 2 problems with that. Firstly, UK mains plugs (which are invariably side cable entry) can be quite irritating in a pocket. Seocndly, and more imporntatly, I worry I'd forget it's there and walk away from my workbench with the plug sitll in my pocket. If the device is small, I can see it crashign to the ground and leaving me with a bigger repair job. If the device is large, I can see myself in the embarassing position of being trouserless... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 16 12:29:08 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 18:29:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B50AB25.4683.1B6BBDB@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 15, 10 05:51:33 pm Message-ID: > > On 15 Jan 2010 at 17:37, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > Putting the pug end of the lead into your pocket also works. > > (USA doesn't usually HAVE fuses within mains plugs!) > > If I did that sort of thing routinely and had to work with idiots, > I'd buy one of these: > > http://www.familysafemedia.com/powerstop_power_plug_lock.html I asusme that's some kind of lockable box or shroud that fits over the plug. THey exist over here, particularly for what I call BS4343 plugs (I can never rememebr the CEN number) which are used on industrial power tools, etc, and which don;'t contain fuses. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 16 12:34:45 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 18:34:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jan 15, 10 09:26:29 pm Message-ID: > > > Putting the pug end of the lead into your pocket also works. > > (USA doesn't usually HAVE fuses within mains plugs!) > > Mostly because there are no "mains" in the USA. It is called the "line". Yes, I know (I've worked on plenty of US instruemnts, mostly HP, with switches labled 'line' which we'd call a power switch over here...) However, the term 'line' for what we call mains is actually confusing over here. The horizontal deflection system of a CRT is called the 'line' circuit (or line timebase, line deflection, etc) because it produces the lines on the CRT screen. The vertical deflection system is called 'frame' or 'field' (those have different meanings when used with an interlaced scan, but anyway). So the term 'line hold control' is what you'd call a horizontal hold control. A 'line output transformer' or 'LOPT' is th flyback transformerm, and so on. Now is the 'line frequency' the frequency of the mains (50Hz to me, 60Hz to you) or the horixontal deflection frequency (15625Hz for UK televlsion). I try to avoid that problem on international lists like this one by calling the former 1mains frequency' and the latter 'horizontal freqeuncy'. -tony From rollerton at gmail.com Sat Jan 16 12:51:53 2010 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 12:51:53 -0600 Subject: Honeywell Level-6 In-Reply-To: <4AEF9FB4.7070803@hachti.de> References: <4AEF9FB4.7070803@hachti.de> Message-ID: <2789adda1001161051o4caf560aya436d259ef130e6b@mail.gmail.com> I have placed scans of the Marketing pamphlet for the 6/06 and the 4 Honeywell Level 6 manuals I have here: They will probably be getting shuffled into some kind of directory structure in a few days but I will leave the Level 6 docs where they are until at least Feb 1 so you have some time to download them. These will be offered to Bitsavers as well. I hope these are useful to you. It would be fun to see a Level 6 running again. best of luck, bob. On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 9:12 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi, > > are here people with intimate knowledge of Honeywell Level-6 (Series 60) > computers? Or documentation? > I got two Level-6/06 machines. Those seem to be somewhat different from the > rest of the line as they should be downwards compatible to the X16 machines. > But I have no single manual for them. All I have are some Level-6 manuals > talking about other machines. In one of them, the 6/06 is mentioned as > special and "Series 700" (WHAT is that?!?) compatible. And that it is > explicitly not subject of the manual and that it as its own manual that I do > not have. I also don't have any schematics. > > Best wishes, > > Philipp :-) > > > -- > http://www.hachti.de > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 16 12:57:36 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 10:57:36 -0800 Subject: Univac 422 sighting Message-ID: <4B519BA0.13703.4E85CE@cclist.sydex.com> Just happened to see one on an ancient rerun of the "Patty Duke Show". Although it was a "training computer", it still had 512 words of 15- bit storage and an instruction repertoire of 61 instructions. (6 bit opcode+9 bit address). Ed Thelen's list gives it as 1963. Power consumption, from the manufacturer's brochure, was 500W, with a 115VAC supply. Thelen gives it as 1.13KW, but I suspect that the difference is in the I/O device (typewriter, paper tape punch). Given the modest space and power requirements, would the 422 qualify as another one of the first minicomputers? Cheers, Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Jan 16 13:05:07 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 11:05:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: old transistors Message-ID: I stumbled across this page on old transistors from a hobbyist perspective. I thought some people might like it: http://transistorhistory.50webs.com/. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From hachti at hachti.de Sat Jan 16 13:45:13 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 20:45:13 +0100 Subject: Large pdp-8/i on eBay In-Reply-To: <506874a586e686f6d1c86a81f2516d56.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <84C392B587EF45C8B03037CE0D634C57@vrsxp> <506874a586e686f6d1c86a81f2516d56.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4B521749.5010101@hachti.de> Ed Groenenberg wrote: > It certainly is a nice machine and a tech savvy person > should be able to get is fully up and running. I want it! Ahhh!! And the TC controller! >> Tim put his 8/i up on eBay a couple of hours ago. It's worth a >> look. >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320475395861 Which Tim? -- http://www.hachti.de From als at thangorodrim.de Sat Jan 16 14:01:38 2010 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 21:01:38 +0100 Subject: Collections:thinning out In-Reply-To: <20100115221538.cf907c69.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> <4B4EB3F7.5020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4F30EF.7020906@compsys.to> <4B4F51DC.8080105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4FBA4F.3090009@compsys.to> <4B4FC843.1070205@jetnet.ab.ca> <3188C5EB-85B5-4D63-A916-7C6EE8864745@neurotica.com> <4B50B839.3020007@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100115221538.cf907c69.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20100116200137.GA32089@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 10:15:38PM +0100, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Fri, 15 Jan 2010 11:47:21 -0700 > Ben wrote: > > > Well I do want play a few PC games now and then.My problem is > > I can back up my local data,but not my applications under windows. > Use Windows only for gameing. > Use some Unix like Linux or *BSD (or MacOS X) for everything else. > Where is the problem? Dual booting a PeeCee is't black magic. > I stoped using Windows 17 years ago. The last Windows version I ran on my own time was Windows 3.1, after that I switched first to OS/2 and then Linux (with a sprinkling of the various BSDs) and since then I only touch Windows when I get paid for it. That saves me a lot of annoyances ;-) Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From halarewich at gmail.com Sat Jan 16 14:24:13 2010 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 12:24:13 -0800 Subject: Honeywell Level-6 In-Reply-To: <2789adda1001161051o4caf560aya436d259ef130e6b@mail.gmail.com> References: <4AEF9FB4.7070803@hachti.de> <2789adda1001161051o4caf560aya436d259ef130e6b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6d6501091001161224t7ab67ee1v5adf277d69d62f37@mail.gmail.com> I think u forgot to put the web address in Chris On 1/16/10, Robert Ollerton wrote: > > I have placed scans of the Marketing pamphlet for the 6/06 and the 4 > Honeywell Level 6 manuals I have here: > > They will probably be getting shuffled into some kind of directory > structure > in a few days but I will leave the Level 6 docs where they are until at > least Feb 1 so you have some time to download them. These will be offered > to Bitsavers as well. > > I hope these are useful to you. It would be fun to see a Level 6 running > again. > > best of luck, > > bob. > > > On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 9:12 PM, Philipp Hachtmann > wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > are here people with intimate knowledge of Honeywell Level-6 (Series 60) > > computers? Or documentation? > > I got two Level-6/06 machines. Those seem to be somewhat different from > the > > rest of the line as they should be downwards compatible to the X16 > machines. > > But I have no single manual for them. All I have are some Level-6 manuals > > talking about other machines. In one of them, the 6/06 is mentioned as > > special and "Series 700" (WHAT is that?!?) compatible. And that it is > > explicitly not subject of the manual and that it as its own manual that I > do > > not have. I also don't have any schematics. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Philipp :-) > > > > > > -- > > http://www.hachti.de > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 16 15:55:54 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 13:55:54 -0800 Subject: old transistors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B51C56A.25035.F1C417@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Jan 2010 at 11:05, David Griffith wrote: > I stumbled across this page on old transistors from a hobbyist > perspective. I thought some people might like it: > http://transistorhistory.50webs.com/. Very nice, David. Thank you! I remember experimenting with CK722, 2N107 and 2N170s many years ago. I recall my family's first transistor radio--a 6-transistor Automatic. Metal chassis construction with point-to-point wiring with each transistor in a socket. Oddly, much larger than a Motorola Pixie tube radio. Sitting on my kitchen counter for use as an emergency radio, I have an 60's era Sony 10 transistor AM-FM set. Has worked every time I've turned it on. Takes 3 D-sized cells and is very sensitive. I seem to recall that some early import manufacturers played the "watch jewel" game--added transistors to the unit without including them in any circuitry. This allowed them to up the all-important "transistor count" prominently displayed on the unit. So how many transistors does an iPod have? Cheers, Chuck From jthecman at netscape.net Sat Jan 16 16:02:39 2010 From: jthecman at netscape.net (jthecman at netscape.net) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 17:02:39 -0500 Subject: Atari Portfolio Interface Message-ID: <8CC650EC0CDE9AF-2A88-16772@webmail-d038.sysops.aol.com> Hello I have a brand new in the box Atari Portfolio Parallel Interface with complete docs. If anyone needs any information from the manual let me know and I can copy it and send it to you. John K From rollerton at gmail.com Sat Jan 16 16:48:07 2010 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 16:48:07 -0600 Subject: Honeywell Level-6 In-Reply-To: <6d6501091001161224t7ab67ee1v5adf277d69d62f37@mail.gmail.com> References: <4AEF9FB4.7070803@hachti.de> <2789adda1001161051o4caf560aya436d259ef130e6b@mail.gmail.com> <6d6501091001161224t7ab67ee1v5adf277d69d62f37@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2789adda1001161448w1b14d175m32d4d53b5cd21ad1@mail.gmail.com> Well that might just might save my server. On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 2:24 PM, Chris Halarewich wrote: > I think u forgot to put the web address in > Chris > > > On 1/16/10, Robert Ollerton wrote: > > > > I have placed scans of the Marketing pamphlet for the 6/06 and the 4 > > Honeywell Level 6 manuals I have here: > > > > They will probably be getting shuffled into some kind of directory > > structure > > in a few days but I will leave the Level 6 docs where they are until at > > least Feb 1 so you have some time to download them. These will be > offered > > to Bitsavers as well. > > > > I hope these are useful to you. It would be fun to see a Level 6 running > > again. > > > > best of luck, > > > > bob. > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 9:12 PM, Philipp Hachtmann > > wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > are here people with intimate knowledge of Honeywell Level-6 (Series > 60) > > > computers? Or documentation? > > > I got two Level-6/06 machines. Those seem to be somewhat different from > > the > > > rest of the line as they should be downwards compatible to the X16 > > machines. > > > But I have no single manual for them. All I have are some Level-6 > manuals > > > talking about other machines. In one of them, the 6/06 is mentioned as > > > special and "Series 700" (WHAT is that?!?) compatible. And that it is > > > explicitly not subject of the manual and that it as its own manual that > I > > do > > > not have. I also don't have any schematics. > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > Philipp :-) > > > > > > > > > -- > > > http://www.hachti.de > > > > > > From als at thangorodrim.de Sat Jan 16 18:32:09 2010 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 01:32:09 +0100 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381001151056l37d56044i7dc943e69bfcabbc@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B4F7AF5.9040801@jwsss.com> <4B50B6A3.5030203@vaxen.net> <6dbe3c381001151056l37d56044i7dc943e69bfcabbc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100117003209.GA24517@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 12:56:25PM -0600, Brian Lanning wrote: > I'm also reminded of the time I was working at IBM. The power went > out for our entire office building. We looked out the window and > could follow the line of orange flags a couple hundred feet to a > backhoe. I guess even when you mark where the wires are, that's no > guarantee. No, that doesn't help protect them. One of the jokes around backhoes magic ability to find wires/fibres: Always carry a short length of fibre-optic cable. If you get lost, then you can drop it on the ground, wait ten minutes, and ask the backhoe operator how to get back to civilization. -- Mike Andrews in NANAE Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Sat Jan 16 19:48:56 2010 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 20:48:56 -0500 Subject: Altair 680 power supply... Message-ID: My Altair 680 has achieved the position of primary attention on my workbench. All of the ICs are socketed. Not having seen power in over 20 years, I did not trust the power supply as far as I could throw a bus. I pulled all of the ICs, attached dummy loads (automobile bulbs) and powered up. Sure enough, there was AC all over the place (where there should have been DC). I replaced all of the electrolytic caps and that got rid of the AC but some of the voltage levels are very wrong, at least as compared to what is written on the schematics. The worst offender is just off the "plus" side of the full wave bridge (BR-1). It should be nine volts but is actually at 11.5. This makes what should be the main five volt rail a little more than 9 volts... the far side of VR-1 (a 7805). The wave form coming off the transformer is really ugly not a smooth sine wave. I hate power supplies. I don't really understand, looking at the schematics, what this transformer should be doing. My guess is that it should be making a nice nine volt, 60 cycle AC sine wave with each of the two outputs 90 degrees out of sync? What could be wrong with a transformer that it would produce something like: __ / \ | \ / \_ / \ | / | / \_/ bent and very squared off at spots? My scope shows nice clean 120 coming into the transformer. How do I figure out a part number for a replacement transformer? Thanks! From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 16 19:57:15 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 17:57:15 -0800 Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B51FDFB.14766.1CEB8D9@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Jan 2010 at 20:48, Bill Sudbrink wrote: Bill, try putting a load on the output of the power supply and then looking again. A 12V automotive tail or brake light bulb might do the trick. These supplies were designed to run with a load. --Chuck From vrs at msn.com Sat Jan 16 20:00:25 2010 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 18:00:25 -0800 Subject: Large pdp-8/i on eBay References: <84C392B587EF45C8B03037CE0D634C57@vrsxp><506874a586e686f6d1c86a81f2516d56.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4B521749.5010101@hachti.de> Message-ID: From: "Philipp Hachtmann" Saturday, January 16, 2010 11:45 AM >> Tim put his 8/i up on eBay a couple of hours ago. It's worth a >>> look. >>> >>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320475395861 > Which Tim? Technically, my user agreement with eBay prevents me from saying, but the last name starts with "R" and ends with "dde" :-). If that doesn't help, he's also listed in the PDP-8 frappr. Vince From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Sat Jan 16 20:06:47 2010 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 12:36:47 +1030 Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201001171236.48118.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> On Sun, 17 Jan 2010 12:18:56 pm Bill Sudbrink wrote: > What could be wrong with a transformer that it would > produce something like: > > __ > / \ > | \ > / \_ > / \ > | / > | / > \_/ > > bent and very squared off at spots? I've found that mains is hardly ever a nice sine wave. All of my transformer outputs look a little wonky in some way. Alexis. From IanK at vulcan.com Sat Jan 16 23:31:41 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 21:31:41 -0800 Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: <4B51FDFB.14766.1CEB8D9@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B51FDFB.14766.1CEB8D9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: And you have some other problem if the output side of a 7805 is showing anything other than five volts. You should be able to feed anything into it up to its maximum rating of (if memory serves) 40v and get 5v out. If there isn't anything in the ground path of the 7805, replace it; if there is (for instance, a pot or diode, or any sort of active circuitry), check it carefully. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis [cclist at sydex.com] Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010 5:57 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Altair 680 power supply... On 16 Jan 2010 at 20:48, Bill Sudbrink wrote: Bill, try putting a load on the output of the power supply and then looking again. A 12V automotive tail or brake light bulb might do the trick. These supplies were designed to run with a load. --Chuck From steve at radiorobots.com Sat Jan 16 23:57:07 2010 From: steve at radiorobots.com (steve stutman) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 00:57:07 -0500 Subject: {Spam?} Re: old transistors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B52A6B3.3060705@radiorobots.com> David Griffith wrote: > > I stumbled across this page on old transistors from a hobbyist > perspective. I thought some people might like it: > http://transistorhistory.50webs.com/. > A nice site, thanks. Also instructive to read: http://www.pat2pdf.org/patents/pat1745175.pdf Steve From tosteve at yahoo.com Sun Jan 17 00:25:20 2010 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 22:25:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Intel MDS-225 development system available in Mineapolis, MN Message-ID: <592287.28994.qm@web110612.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I am passing this along, as I am too far away to acquire this system. The owner would appreciate a few hundred dollars or so, if it is worthy, otherwise make an offer. It is very big and heavy - pick up in person preferred. I have photos, I will post them somewhere is desired. It's a good looking system! Please contact owner below for more information: > > I have a very old Intel MDS-225 and MDS-720 development system. System > was powered up and still works. > Steven Urbanski > steven.urbanski at minco.com > From hachti at hachti.de Sun Jan 17 01:25:44 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 08:25:44 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: References: <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> <4B4EB3F7.5020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4F30EF.7020906@compsys.to> <4B4F51DC.8080105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4FBA4F.3090009@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4B52BB78.5050603@hachti.de> > Part of what makes them desirable is > that they are now over 40 years old and when found, usually complete > enough to run and quite portable. Portable, yes. But also quite useless. You can add peripherals to the IO bus - if you have them. But you cannot run OS/8 on the machine. For that purpose you'd need an expansion box with further 4K. And then you're at the 8/L's maximum. AFAIK the basic system can be fitted with paper tape interfaces. That makes it a bit more usable. If you have the bare machine, you can toggle in programs and run paper tape software and - very important - spend your day waiting for the teletype to read in your program. > They use individual TTL chips, so they are somewhat easy to repair > (I've fixed several), and of them have core memory (unlike later > models which might or might not). Core memory was quite common with /e/f/m systems as well! Even the /a sold with core. But I have no info about the relation between /a with and without core. > My first -8 experience was with an -8/L. As I've posted many times > about this exact model, in 1982, they weren't expensive (mine cost $35 > and some swap goods) because they were "old". Add 28 years of demand > going up and the supply going down and you have these sorts of prices > (others, perhaps on this very list, had similar experiences with the > PDP-8/S a few years before that - same effect, but with more > scarcity). I initially only played with my Honeywell H316. One day I got a call that someone had a pdp8/l to dispose. After arrival it came out that there were three machines. Quite rotten, but complete. I saved them. One of the machines was in a partially runnable state. It has been completely restored to stable operation in fall 2009 - by a retired DEC field service engineer. He liked to do it. And he will probably fix the other two machines as well. So pdp8/l was my first (own) pdp8 experience as well. I rescued them only to demonstrate the difference in quality between Honeywell and DEC stuff :-) But with time I realized that the fact that the DEC stuff was very widely sold and that therefore the internet is full of /8 software makes the /8 very interesting. I added some /e/f/m style machines to my collection and play with them - if I just don't fix something. Currently fighting a pile of TU56 and RK05 drives which need some care to get working. I'm quite curious about the 8/i's end price on eBay! Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From chrise at pobox.com Sat Jan 16 09:21:52 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 09:21:52 -0600 Subject: Rom Emulator In-Reply-To: <4B507E77.23138.1083525@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B507E77.23138.1083525@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100116152152.GO29564@n0jcf.net> On Friday (01/15/2010 at 02:40PM -0800), Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 15 Jan 2010 at 13:43, dwight elvey wrote: > > > The one thing I wonder about is that the company is still selling this > > unit as an ISA board interface. I'm surprised they haven't come up to > > PCI or USB. I'm sure there is a larger market for an inexpensive USB > > unit. > > In today's JTAG/SPI world, how large a market would that be, Dwight? I'd love to see one of the FPGA or CPLD wizards out there whip up a little "shim" that would sit between a 32Kx8 or 64Kx8 SRAM and provide a sideband SPI interface to read/write that SRAM while still allowing parallel access from the target system. It wouldn't have to be true dual port and in fact this shim might also export a RESET signal that puts the target system into reset when you started diddling things on the SPI side. But with such a gadget, you could retrofit old systems with EPROM into the new age of in-circuit programming. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From jlobocki at gmail.com Sat Jan 16 17:55:23 2010 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 17:55:23 -0600 Subject: anyone have granite SGI mice? Message-ID: hello, I'm trying to find 3 granite mice to finish my SGI collection. if anyone has some they aren't using, please let me know. thanks! -Joe From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 17 03:40:21 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 04:40:21 -0500 Subject: anyone have granite SGI mice? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <66D0B577-3E2D-4E13-B291-A3D0CAF526E5@neurotica.com> On Jan 16, 2010, at 6:55 PM, joe lobocki wrote: > I'm trying to find 3 granite mice to finish my SGI collection. if > anyone has > some they aren't using, please let me know. thanks! I have lots of them, along with keyboards. Unearthing them will be difficult, but well worth it to send them to a new home. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jan 17 05:05:19 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 09:05:19 -0200 Subject: Rom Emulator References: <4B507E77.23138.1083525@cclist.sydex.com> <20100116152152.GO29564@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <8e3a01ca9765$e793bab0$0101a8c0@Alexandre> > I'd love to see one of the FPGA or CPLD wizards out there whip up a > little "shim" that would sit between a 32Kx8 or 64Kx8 SRAM and provide > a sideband SPI interface to read/write that SRAM while still allowing > parallel access from the target system. It wouldn't have to be true dual > port and in fact this shim might also export a RESET signal that puts the > target system into reset when you started diddling things on the SPI side. > But with such a gadget, you could retrofit old systems with EPROM into > the new age of in-circuit programming. This is not something hard to do and I've done that many times here. EPROM emulators aren't hard things to do. TTL-Tony-Duel-mode-of-doing: - Bunch of counters on the parallel port, you send a pulse to increase address, send 8 bits of data, pulse wr, keep it going to the end. Release bus isolation and the memory is connected to the bus ?C-Alexandre-mode-of-doing: - Microcontroller connects to the host via serial or USB port, gets address and data, writes the address and releases the mem to the bus. A day worth of work :) From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Sun Jan 17 08:40:13 2010 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 09:40:13 -0500 Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: <4B51FDFB.14766.1CEB8D9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 16 Jan 2010 at 20:48, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > Bill, try putting a load on the output of the power supply and then > looking again. A 12V automotive tail or brake light bulb might do > the trick. These supplies were designed to run with a load. Please reread my original post. That's exactly what I did. Thanks, Bill From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Sun Jan 17 08:45:37 2010 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 09:45:37 -0500 Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ian King wrote: > > And you have some other problem if the output side of a 7805 > is showing anything other than five volts. Yea, that's what I figured was next. I just wasn't going to go there until I understood why the input side of the 7805 was not at the schematic voltage. > If there isn't anything in the ground path of the 7805, There isn't. You can grab a good PDF of the schematics here: http://www.altair680kit.com/manuals.html Thanks, Bill From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jan 17 09:13:21 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 07:13:21 -0800 Subject: old transistors In-Reply-To: <4B52A6B3.3060705@radiorobots.com> References: , <4B52A6B3.3060705@radiorobots.com> Message-ID: > Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 00:57:07 -0500 > From: steve at radiorobots.com > To: > Subject: {Spam?} Re: old transistors > > David Griffith wrote: > > > > I stumbled across this page on old transistors from a hobbyist > > perspective. I thought some people might like it: > > http://transistorhistory.50webs.com/. > > > A nice site, thanks. > > Also instructive to read: > > http://www.pat2pdf.org/patents/pat1745175.pdf > > > Steve Hi Clearly a junction FET. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390707/direct/01/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jan 17 10:46:51 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 08:46:51 -0800 Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Hi I just came on an unusual problem. I'm fixing a power supply with +12 and +5 outs. It uses 2 723 regulators. The one on the +12 was blown. I bought another 723 regulator and it didn't seem to be working. I checked the voltages and noticed that the 5 volt one that is working fine, has a Vref of about 3 volts while the new one has a Vref of 7 volts. Looking at the specs, it is suppose to be 7 Volts. Looking at the resistors on the board, the board expects 3 volts. Has anyone seen these with different reference voltages before? I'll have to change the feedback resistors ( not a big deal ) but this is a strange one. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390706/direct/01/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jan 17 11:01:19 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 09:01:19 -0800 Subject: power supply problem In-Reply-To: References: , , , Message-ID: Sorry, forgot to change subject! > From: dkelvey at hotmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Altair 680 power supply... > Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 08:46:51 -0800 > > > > Hi > > I just came on an unusual problem. I'm fixing a > > power supply with +12 and +5 outs. It uses 2 > > 723 regulators. The one on the +12 was blown. > > I bought another 723 regulator and it didn't > > seem to be working. > > I checked the voltages and noticed that the > > 5 volt one that is working fine, has a Vref of > > about 3 volts while the new one has a Vref > > of 7 volts. > > Looking at the specs, it is suppose to be 7 Volts. > > Looking at the resistors on the board, the > > board expects 3 volts. > > Has anyone seen these with different reference > > voltages before? > > I'll have to change the feedback resistors ( not > > a big deal ) but this is a strange one. > > Dwight > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390706/direct/01/ _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390710/direct/01/ From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jan 17 11:27:21 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 09:27:21 -0800 Subject: RK05 exerciser manual ( was Re: PDP-8/L value) In-Reply-To: <4B52BB78.5050603@hachti.de> References: <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> <4B4EB3F7.5020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4F30EF.7020906@compsys.to> <4B4F51DC.8080105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4FBA4F.3090009@compsys.to> <4B52BB78.5050603@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4B534879.3080207@bitsavers.org> On 1/16/10 11:25 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Currently fighting a pile of TU56 and > RK05 drives which need some care to get working. > The maintenance manual for the RK05 drive exerciser is now on line under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/disc/rk05 From hachti at hachti.de Sun Jan 17 11:39:58 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 18:39:58 +0100 Subject: RK05 exerciser manual ( was Re: PDP-8/L value) In-Reply-To: <4B534879.3080207@bitsavers.org> References: <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> <4B4EB3F7.5020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4F30EF.7020906@compsys.to> <4B4F51DC.8080105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4FBA4F.3090009@compsys.to> <4B52BB78.5050603@hachti.de> <4B534879.3080207@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4B534B6E.8080104@hachti.de> > The maintenance manual for the RK05 drive exerciser is now > on line under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/disc/rk05 Oh, nice. Only missing the actual exerciser.... ;-) -- http://www.hachti.de From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 17 11:54:55 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 09:54:55 -0800 Subject: power supply problem In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4B52DE6F.2189.166631@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Jan 2010 at 9:01, dwight elvey wrote: > > I'll have to change the feedback resistors ( not > > a big deal ) but this is a strange one. That's a new one on me, Dwight. What are the markings on the old one? --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jan 17 12:15:11 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 10:15:11 -0800 Subject: power supply problem In-Reply-To: <4B52DE6F.2189.166631@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , , , , <4B52DE6F.2189.166631@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 09:54:55 -0800 > Subject: Re: power supply problem > > On 17 Jan 2010 at 9:01, dwight elvey wrote: > > > > > I'll have to change the feedback resistors ( not > > > > a big deal ) but this is a strange one. > > That's a new one on me, Dwight. What are the markings on the old > one? > > --Chuck > Hi Chuck It has a trangle with a lamda in it. The part number is: LAS 723 Date code: 7813 There is no question that the board was designed for the lower referance voltage. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390709/direct/01/ From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jan 17 12:18:10 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 16:18:10 -0200 Subject: RK05 exerciser manual ( was Re: PDP-8/L value) References: <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> <4B4EB3F7.5020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4F30EF.7020906@compsys.to> <4B4F51DC.8080105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4FBA4F.3090009@compsys.to> <4B52BB78.5050603@hachti.de><4B534879.3080207@bitsavers.org> <4B534B6E.8080104@hachti.de> Message-ID: <936e01ca97a2$d4b75040$0101a8c0@Alexandre> >> The maintenance manual for the RK05 drive exerciser is now >> on line under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/disc/rk05 > Oh, nice. Only missing the actual exerciser.... ;-) Just build one from the schematics ;o) From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 17 12:33:35 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 10:33:35 -0800 Subject: power supply problem In-Reply-To: References: , <4B52DE6F.2189.166631@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B52E77F.3965.39CDDA@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Jan 2010 at 10:15, dwight elvey wrote: > It has a trangle with a lamda in it. > > The part number is: LAS 723 > > Date code: 7813 A quick search turns up that the LAS723 does indeed have a Vref of 2.5v. datasheetarchive.com has the data sheet. Never heard of this one before. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jan 17 12:54:23 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 13:54:23 -0500 Subject: Univac 422 sighting In-Reply-To: <4B519BA0.13703.4E85CE@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B519BA0.13703.4E85CE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Given the modest space and power requirements, would the 422 qualify > as another one of the first minicomputers? Certainly. Do any survive? They are small enough to be hidden in basements and garages. -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jan 17 13:00:35 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 12:00:35 -0700 Subject: Fwd: [alt.sys.pdp8] Another round of PDP-8 kits happening Message-ID: This message has been forwarded from Usenet. To reply to the original author, use the email address from the forwarded message. Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 08:17:54 -0800 Groups: alt.sys.pdp8 From: Steve Gibson Org: Gibson Research Corporation Subject: Another round of PDP-8 kits happening Id: ======== Everyone... I expect that everyone here is aware of Bob Armstrong's really neat PDP-8 single board computer (SBC) kit, and its matching PDP-8 front panel kit. But if not, or to refresh your memory... It's a contemporary single board computer based around the Harris HD6120 single-chip, 12-bit PDP-8 clone microprocessor. It features a PDP-8 compatible RS-232 serial interface with a full BIOS "monitor" that allows the terminal to manage programs running on the PDP-8, single stepping, tracing, breakpoints, etc. It also exports a simple API that allows PDP-8 programs to access the IDE drive and other peripherals. The built-in IDE interface can attach to any IDE/ATA-style drive -- spinning platter, Compact Flash, or other non-volatile solid state drive (I went with small IDE SSDs.) Bob includes the device drivers for the PDP-8's classic operating system, OS/8, and a full OS/8 image is available for easy installation. (I wrote and provide a free Windows utility that installs bootable OS/8 on any drive instantly.) There's also an OS/8 "Games" partition image available that brings a collection of those. Various languages from the era, including FOCAL (Dec's interpreted BASIC-like language) and PAL-8 (the PDP-8 assembler) and editors, etc. are all there. This all means that with an attached drive and terminal, you can be messing around with a PDP-8 in its classic native environment. That's otherwise difficult to do on original DEC equipment. The front panel, which attaches to this board, is nothing less than a work of art and it was designed to copy the original PDP-8/e front panel as closely as made sense. Thanks to an efficient design using lots of CMOS and PALs to reduce chip count, the pair of SBC6120 and FP6120 consume about 150 milliamps when running with all lights illuminated. So it would even be practical to run the system from self-contained batteries. In early 2009 (about this time last year) Bob gathered a "critical mass" of interested classic computer enthusiasts and offered to make his beautiful creations available once again after many years. I purchased, assembled, and programmed three full kits that I'm very pleased with. Although I also own a collection of original DEC PDP-8s and PDP-11s, these kits are nevertheless something special. I recently completed publishing my work -- open-sourcing the PDP-8 software I wrote for Bob's front panel kit (a classic blinkenlights toy and a simple but challenging combinatorial puzzle) and I made flash videos of the results so that people who had not seen them in action could do so. (See link below.) As part of the publication of this work I have been coordinating with Bob Armstrong about the possibility of another round of combined SBC6120/FP6120 kits ... and that effort is underway. If sufficient interest can be generated -- at least 50 purchasers -- Bob has agreed to produce another round of kits containing all of the special, custom & programmed bits required to assemble the combination of an SBC6120 and FP6120. After its first day on the Net, we have about 15 people signed up so far. I am posting this note here, since I didn't want anyone who would WANT to know of this opportunity not to have learned of it in time to participate if they wished to. My web site's tribute to the PDP-8 consists of eight pages, the last one of which explains the details of the kits and provides a web-form for allowing interested people to declare their interest. Yesterday I announced the existence of the kits during my weekly Security Now podcast recording with Leo Laporte. The podcast goes live later today (Thursday, 1/14/2010), when we'll have an audience of about 80,000 receiving it then listening to it over the coming days. From among the few thousand listeners who were watching the recording live yesterday, we immediately received several declarations of interest... and they've been trickling in ever since. So, at the moment, we're looking good for achieving the required critical mass for another round. I have my kits, I don't need more ... but the kits are so nice that Bob and I wanted to help others get one. It seems unlikely that this opportunity will ever present itself again. Here's the page... http://www.grc.com/pdp-8/yourown-sbc.htm And if by some chance you are not familiar with these terrific kits, other pages in that area of my web site, linked at the bottom of that page, contain videos to give you a good idea of the final product. Here's to keeping classic computing alive ... and having a lot of fun doing so. :) -- ________________________________________________________________ Steve Gibson. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 17 12:40:16 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 18:40:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: from "Bill Sudbrink" at Jan 16, 10 08:48:56 pm Message-ID: > > My Altair 680 has achieved the position of primary attention on > my workbench. All of the ICs are socketed. Not having seen > power in over 20 years, I did not trust the power supply as far > as I could throw a bus. I pulled all of the ICs, attached dummy RIght... > loads (automobile bulbs) and powered up. Sure enough, there was > AC all over the place (where there should have been DC). I Do you mean AC, or DC with excessive ripple. Did any of the lines go the wrong side of ground? (my guess is they didn't, but it's best to be sure). > replaced all of the electrolytic caps and that got rid of the AC > but some of the voltage levels are very wrong, at least as compared > to what is written on the schematics. The worst offender is just > off the "plus" side of the full wave bridge (BR-1). It should be > nine volts but is actually at 11.5. This makes what should be the I wouldn't worry about that one. It's an unregulated supply, and will drop on load. Assuming it's the input to a regulator (like that 7805 you mention), it'll be fine. > main five volt rail a little more than 9 volts... the far side of > VR-1 (a 7805). The wave form coming off the transformer is really Now that does worry me, for obvious reasons. You need to correct that before you put the ICs back (but you knew that ;-)). There several reasons why this voltage could be high 1) The ground connection to the 7805 'common' pin is open. The 7805 treis to get the output pin 5V _above that common pin_, so if the latter is not ground, the output will be wrong wrt groud too. A few manufactuers used the mouting screw of the TO220 package as the common conneciton and didn't connect the middle pin anywhere. Others used the heatsink of a TO3 packaged regulator as part of the common connection (I've seen a version of the latter in an HP instrument!). Check the ground connection, if it's made through the mounting screws, check they're clean and tight. 2) THe 7805 is defective. They do fail, alas, which is why you chack the PCB on a dummy load :-)) 3) There is resistor in parallel with the regulator. Some manufacturers connected a high-wattage resistor between the input and output pins of the regulator, of a suitable value to carry most of the load current at the expected voltage drop, thus leaving the reguator to carry (and control) a much smaller current. This is an evil trick because the output voltage will rise (and the rewgualtor can't do anything about it) if the load is too small. Again, I've come across this in an HP device, it was fitted with a crowbar circuit, and I wondered why it tripped with the supply on dummy load. The reason was my load was not large enough. Do you have scehamtics? If so, that'll show if the resistor is present or not. > ugly not a smooth sine wave. I hate power supplies. I don't really > understand, looking at the schematics, what this transformer should > be doing. My guess is that it should be making a nice nine volt, > 60 cycle AC sine wave with each of the two outputs 90 degrees out No, assuming it's a centre=-tapped winding, the ends will be 180 degrees out of phase. With no load on the transforemr, the outputs should be approximately sinusoidal. With the sort of load you're giving it (rectifiers and smoothing capacitors), the waveform may look horrible. Provided the transofrmer is not getting exessively hot, I'd not worry about that too much. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 17 12:49:36 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 18:49:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <4B52BB78.5050603@hachti.de> from "Philipp Hachtmann" at Jan 17, 10 08:25:44 am Message-ID: > > > Part of what makes them desirable is > > that they are now over 40 years old and when found, usually complete > > enough to run and quite portable. > Portable, yes. But also quite useless. You can add peripherals to the Is any classic computer 'useful' _as a computer_ now? Even I realise that a modern PC will beat the heck out of just about any classic manchine... But they have other uses. It is interesting to me to analyse how they work, to look at signals on a 'scope or logic analyers, to toggle in programs on front panel swithces, and so on. I suspect that could be done on an 8/L -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 17 12:59:59 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 18:59:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Jan 17, 10 08:46:51 am Message-ID: > > > > Hi > > I just came on an unusual problem. I'm fixing a > > power supply with +12 and +5 outs. It uses 2 > > 723 regulators. The one on the +12 was blown. Just to conmfirm these are dfinietly supposed to be 723s (and not some other regualtor chip that is pin compatible but has a different reference voltage. I do recall other 'PSU kit chips' existing. > > I bought another 723 regulator and it didn't > > seem to be working. > > I checked the voltages and noticed that the > > 5 volt one that is working fine=2C has a Vref of > > about 3 volts while the new one has a Vref > > of 7 volts. > > Looking at the specs=2C it is suppose to be 7 Volts. Every 723 I've ever used (and I've come across ones that are 40 years old) have had a 7V reference or thereabouts. Is this a metal-can or a DIP package? The reason I ask is I might be convinced to look through databooks for a similar device with a 3V reference./ And what is the origin (in parcilar what country) of the PSU? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 17 12:28:22 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 18:28:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: old transistors In-Reply-To: <4B51C56A.25035.F1C417@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 16, 10 01:55:54 pm Message-ID: > I recall my family's first transistor radio--a 6-transistor > Automatic. Metal chassis construction with point-to-point wiring > with each transistor in a socket. Oddly, much larger than a Some of the early transistor radiops in the UK were built a bit like that (althoguh more often with the transsitors soldered to feed-throughs ont he metal chassis.. I've also seen at least oen device (IIRC some kind of signal tracing amplifier) were the R's and C's were in a potted module but the transsitors were soldered to pins coming out of it (and thus could be individually replaed). Wether the early transsitors were that unreliable, or whethter the designers were just worried the might bem I don't know. > Motorola Pixie tube radio. To get back to classic computing, I am somewhat amused by the fact that the HP9810 is a larger machine than the HP9100, even though the former uses ICs and has fewer standard functiuons than the latter (which is all discrtete transsotors apart from 8 op-amps in the card reader). > Sitting on my kitchen counter for use as an emergency radio, I have > an 60's era Sony 10 transistor AM-FM set. Has worked every time I've > turned it on. Takes 3 D-sized cells and is very sensitive. I've always liked the Hacker (seriously, that was the company name) RP18. Separate AM and FM tuners and IF strips feeding a common audio amplidier giving a genuine 1.5W (RMS) into a decent-sized speaker. Many are still working over 40 years after they were made. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 17 13:07:37 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 19:07:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: power supply problem In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Jan 17, 10 10:15:11 am Message-ID: > It has a trangle with a lamda in it. I've heard of Lambda brand PSUs, and I've heard they used 'odd' ICs that are now unobtainium. I could well believe a 723 with a difference reference is the sortof trick they'd pull... -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 17 13:26:32 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 11:26:32 -0800 Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: References: from "Bill Sudbrink" at Jan 16, 10 08:48:56 pm, Message-ID: <4B52F3E8.29456.6A4794@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Jan 2010 at 18:40, Tony Duell wrote: > 3) There is resistor in parallel with the regulator. MITS did this routinely and it wouldn't surprise me if they did this on the 680. In particular, I remember that the +5 supply for the 4K DRAM boards had this dirty little trick. Anything, I suppose, to shave a few dimes off the manufacturing cost. Everything's fine with a full load, but if the load should drop for any reason, any IC connected to the regulated (?) line were toast. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 17 13:43:31 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 14:43:31 -0500 Subject: power supply problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jan 17, 2010, at 2:07 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> It has a trangle with a lamda in it. > > I've heard of Lambda brand PSUs, and I've heard they used 'odd' ICs > that > are now unobtainium. I could well believe a 723 with a difference > reference is the sortof trick they'd pull... I've used lots and lots of Lambda power supplies, mostly bench units. They are absolutely top-notch for "spare no expense" projects. (thank heaven I can get them on the surplus market) I've never seen one die, so I can't speak to the "odd IC" problem, but as a frequent user over the years, I have nothing but good things to say about them. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 17 13:43:44 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 11:43:44 -0800 Subject: Univac 422 sighting In-Reply-To: References: <4B519BA0.13703.4E85CE@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B52F7F0.1950.7A08E7@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Jan 2010 at 13:54, William Donzelli wrote: > Do any survive? They are small enough to be hidden in basements and > garages. A quick web search turns up only monochrome photos. Fortunately, there seems to be no shortage of documents on the thing scattered about. For someone who wanted to recreate a vintage design in SSI or discretes, this might make a good candidate. Any software, however limited, would most likely survive on paper tape and I don't know if any of that still exists. The "Patty Duke Show" episode that featured the 422 is "The Genius" which aired on 9/25/63, which was the second episode of the series. It's on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54zgRfUMLc8 You can see the 422 in operation, starting at about 4 minutes in. That young man with Patty is none other than Paul Lynde. Note the Simpson 260 VOM sitting on the table. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 17 13:46:44 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 14:46:44 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1227CD05-1223-4666-A7AE-A26D23964FD3@neurotica.com> On Jan 17, 2010, at 1:49 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Part of what makes them desirable is >>> that they are now over 40 years old and when found, usually >>> complete >>> enough to run and quite portable. >> Portable, yes. But also quite useless. You can add peripherals to the > > Is any classic computer 'useful' _as a computer_ now? Even I > realise that > a modern PC will beat the heck out of just about any classic > manchine... Because Thing B is faster, Thing A is no longer useful? Who are you, and how did you get access to Tony's email account? -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 17 13:42:48 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 19:42:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: <4B52F3E8.29456.6A4794@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 17, 10 11:26:32 am Message-ID: > > On 17 Jan 2010 at 18:40, Tony Duell wrote: > > > 3) There is resistor in parallel with the regulator. > > MITS did this routinely and it wouldn't surprise me if they did this > on the 680. In particular, I remember that the +5 supply for the 4K Oh, right... The OP says he has the schematics, do they show any such resistor. > DRAM boards had this dirty little trick. Anything, I suppose, to > shave a few dimes off the manufacturing cost. I came across it in the HP59500 HPIB interface for the multiprogrammer. This is basically a unit which send/receives ASCII strings over HPIB and has 16-out, 13-in TTL level interface to the multiprogrammer. It's a large board of TTL (something like 70 chips) and a little PSU board giving the necessary 5V (that's the only supply it needs). The PSU board has 2 TO3 componnents on it, one is a regulator (I forget it it's a fixed of adjustable one) and the other is an SCR [1] for the crowbar circuit. Anyway, there is a reistor shunted across the regulator to carry most of the load current. If you try to test that supply without a dummy load oe with too small a load, the crowbar will fire and the resistor gets hot and bothered. [1] We (UK) often call that component a 'thyristor' by analogy with 'thyratron' (a gas-filled triode or more complex valve, line the 2D21 (EN91), etc). Is that name recognised elsewhere? > > Everything's fine with a full load, but if the load should drop for > any reason, any IC connected to the regulated (?) line were toast. Indeed. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 17 14:01:25 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 20:01:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <1227CD05-1223-4666-A7AE-A26D23964FD3@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jan 17, 10 02:46:44 pm Message-ID: > > On Jan 17, 2010, at 1:49 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >>> Part of what makes them desirable is > >>> that they are now over 40 years old and when found, usually > >>> complete > >>> enough to run and quite portable. > >> Portable, yes. But also quite useless. You can add peripherals to the > > > > Is any classic computer 'useful' _as a computer_ now? Even I > > realise that > > a modern PC will beat the heck out of just about any classic > > manchine... > > Because Thing B is faster, Thing A is no longer useful? That's not exactly what I said of meant :-). I also know that classic computers are perfectly capable of being useful for all sorts of things. Heck, this machine has a 16MHz master clock (that is not a typo...). And many of my machines are a lot slower than that. OK, I didn't express myself clearly. My point is that even if an 8/L is not as useful a computer as even pther PDP8s (only 8K words of store?, odd I/O bus?, and so on), it doesn't make it useless. It could certainly provide me with hours of entertainment. Alas it won't, since there's no way I could afford one, but anyway.... I asusme there are others who feel likewise (and unfortuaately, at least IMHO, people who probably can afford to buy it, but have no intention of trying to understnad it, trying to use it, and so on). -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 17 14:12:16 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 12:12:16 -0800 Subject: 200V Zeners avail In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4B52FEA0.13194.9424DD@cclist.sydex.com> While we're on the subject of power supplies, I came across about 5 1N2846 200V 50W zener diodes. These are TO-3 units, nicely gold- plated, Motorola branded, probably from the 1960's. I can't see myself ever having a use for these. Anyone care to make an offer? --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jan 17 14:18:08 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 15:18:08 -0500 Subject: 200V Zeners avail In-Reply-To: <4B52FEA0.13194.9424DD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B52FEA0.13194.9424DD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > While we're on the subject of power supplies, I came across about 5 > 1N2846 200V 50W zener diodes. ?These are TO-3 units, nicely gold- > plated, Motorola branded, probably from the 1960's. > > I can't see myself ever having a use for these. ?Anyone care to make > an offer? Are they JAN? If yes, are they new in the packages? -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 17 14:31:06 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 12:31:06 -0800 Subject: 200V Zeners avail In-Reply-To: References: , <4B52FEA0.13194.9424DD@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B53030A.21905.A56416@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Jan 2010 at 15:18, William Donzelli wrote: > Are they JAN? If yes, are they new in the packages? No and no. To the best of my recollection, they were removed from a piece of Lenkurt gear. --Chuck From pcw at mesanet.com Sun Jan 17 14:30:44 2010 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 12:30:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: 200V Zeners avail In-Reply-To: <4B53030A.21905.A56416@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B52FEA0.13194.9424DD@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B53030A.21905.A56416@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Jan 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 12:31:06 -0800 > From: Chuck Guzis > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: 200V Zeners avail > > On 17 Jan 2010 at 15:18, William Donzelli wrote: > >> Are they JAN? If yes, are they new in the packages? > > No and no. To the best of my recollection, they were removed from a > piece of Lenkurt gear. > > --Chuck > If nothing else they make fair high capacitance varicaps... I had a 5V 50W stud mount zener (probably also Motorola) that had .01 uF of capacitance! Peter Wallace From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jan 17 14:41:27 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 18:41:27 -0200 Subject: PDP-8/L value References: <1227CD05-1223-4666-A7AE-A26D23964FD3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <947301ca97b5$8d8db6b0$0101a8c0@Alexandre> >> Is any classic computer 'useful' _as a computer_ now? Even I realise >> that >> a modern PC will beat the heck out of just about any classic manchine... Hmm, maybe. I **do** prefer an original MSX to play nemesis than the best emulation (BlueMSX) avaiable. Also, for running old hardware compatible of course it is preferable! Also, a MSX (or a TRS-80, or a CoCo, or something useful as a computer) is waaayyyy better to teach computer programming and general workings to a child than a core2quad running crapXP with tons of icons and bilions of API calls to learn before you write "hello, (expletive deleted) world" on the screen. > Who are you, and how did you get access to Tony's email account? Hahahahahahahahahahahaha! :oD From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Sun Jan 17 16:32:38 2010 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 17:32:38 -0500 Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tony Duell wrote: > Do you mean AC, or DC with excessive ripple. Did any of the lines go the > wrong side of ground? (my guess is they didn't, but it's best to be sure). DC with excessive ripple. Nothing on the wrong side of ground but 60 and 120 Hz waveforms almost down to ground. > > replaced all of the electrolytic caps and that got rid of the AC > > but some of the voltage levels are very wrong, at least as compared > > to what is written on the schematics. The worst offender is just > > off the "plus" side of the full wave bridge (BR-1). It should be > > nine volts but is actually at 11.5. This makes what should be the > > I wouldn't worry about that one. It's an unregulated supply, and will > drop on load. Assuming it's the input to a regulator (like that 7805 you > mention), it'll be fine. > > > main five volt rail a little more than 9 volts... the far side of > > VR-1 (a 7805). The wave form coming off the transformer is really > > Now that does worry me, for obvious reasons. You need to correct that > before you put the ICs back (but you knew that ;-)). > 3) There is resistor in parallel with the regulator. Some manufacturers > connected a high-wattage resistor between the input and output pins of > the regulator, of a suitable value to carry most of the load current at > the expected voltage drop, thus leaving the reguator to carry (and > control) a much smaller current. This is an evil trick because the output > voltage will rise (and the rewgualtor can't do anything about it) if the > load is too small. Again, I've come across this in an HP device, it was > fitted with a crowbar circuit, and I wondered why it tripped with the > supply on dummy load. The reason was my load was not large enough. Do you > have scehamtics? If so, that'll show if the resistor is present or not. Yes, there is an 18 Ohm 2 Watt resistor between the +9 and +5 (the input and output pins of the 7805). I was wondering what that is supposed to do. Is this resistor causing the +5 side to "look higher" than it really is? Is everything actually OK, even though my VOM and scope both agree the +5 rail is at +9.2 _WITH_ automobile light dummy loads? A PDF of the schematics is here: http://www.altair680kit.com/manuals/Altair_680-Schematics-03-Beta_1-Searchable.pdf The power supply is on page 2. Thanks, Bill From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jan 17 16:46:50 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 17:46:50 -0500 Subject: Univac 422 sighting In-Reply-To: <4B52F7F0.1950.7A08E7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B519BA0.13703.4E85CE@cclist.sydex.com> <4B52F7F0.1950.7A08E7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > You can see the 422 in operation, starting at about 4 minutes in. > That young man with Patty is none other than Paul Lynde. ?Note the > Simpson 260 VOM sitting on the table. Clearly 6977 indicator tubes are used for the blinkenlights. -- Will From hachti at hachti.de Sun Jan 17 16:50:21 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 23:50:21 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <1227CD05-1223-4666-A7AE-A26D23964FD3@neurotica.com> References: <1227CD05-1223-4666-A7AE-A26D23964FD3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B53942D.4030109@hachti.de> > Because Thing B is faster, Thing A is no longer useful? That reminds me of a thought I have from time to time when confronted with statements like "The computer is already x years old, it' getting too slow and must be replaced" -- A computer doesn't get slower with time.....! -- http://www.hachti.de From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 17 17:01:00 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 15:01:00 -0800 Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4B53262C.24403.12EA328@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Jan 2010 at 17:32, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Yes, there is an 18 Ohm 2 Watt resistor between the +9 and +5 (the > input and output pins of the 7805). I was wondering what that is > supposed to do. Is this resistor causing the +5 side to "look higher" > than it really is? Is everything actually OK, even though my VOM and > scope both agree the +5 rail is at +9.2 _WITH_ automobile light dummy > loads? Back to what I said. Your load isn't heavy enough. At an 11 V high- side supply, an 18 ohm resistor will produce 9V at a load current of 100 mA, even if the 7805 is completely kaput. Put a load that pulls about 2A at 5V (a 10W 3 ohm resistor should do) and see what your readings are. Better yet, ditch the 7805 and resistor and install an LM323 with suitable heatsink. Or use one of the switching buck regulators. MITS was about shaving pennies from their designs. ---Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 17 17:04:00 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 18:04:00 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <4B53942D.4030109@hachti.de> References: <1227CD05-1223-4666-A7AE-A26D23964FD3@neurotica.com> <4B53942D.4030109@hachti.de> Message-ID: <9FA7AE30-E89C-4594-8EE4-0311AA3859E5@neurotica.com> On Jan 17, 2010, at 5:50 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > That reminds me of a thought I have from time to time when > confronted with statements like "The computer is already x years > old, it' getting too slow and must be replaced" -- A computer > doesn't get slower with time.....! Yup, I run into this all the time. Another good one I heard a few years ago was "my hard drive is getting really full, it's gonna crash soon!" Morons. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From toby at coreware.co.uk Sun Jan 17 17:11:42 2010 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 23:11:42 +0000 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <9FA7AE30-E89C-4594-8EE4-0311AA3859E5@neurotica.com> References: <1227CD05-1223-4666-A7AE-A26D23964FD3@neurotica.com> <4B53942D.4030109@hachti.de> <9FA7AE30-E89C-4594-8EE4-0311AA3859E5@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Every machine I've encountered that runs MS Vista seems to get slower with time! Wiping out Vista and installing Linux seems to resolve that problem though. Toby On Sun, Jan 17, 2010 at 11:04 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 17, 2010, at 5:50 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > >> That reminds me of a thought I have from time to time when confronted with >> statements like "The computer is already x years old, it' getting too slow >> and must be replaced" -- A computer doesn't get slower with time.....! >> > > Yup, I run into this all the time. Another good one I heard a few years > ago was "my hard drive is getting really full, it's gonna crash soon!" > > Morons. > > > -Dave > >> >> > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 17 17:20:51 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 15:20:51 -0800 Subject: Univac 422 sighting In-Reply-To: References: <4B519BA0.13703.4E85CE@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B52F7F0.1950.7A08E7@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B532AD3.2324.140CD7D@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Jan 2010 at 17:46, William Donzelli wrote: > Clearly 6977 indicator tubes are used for the blinkenlights. Rectangular slots in the panel? Otherwise, your eyes are better than mine. Hmmm, one could build a whole computer using 6977s as the active device. Wouild make a heckuva glow-in-the-dark display... Cheers, Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jan 17 18:03:44 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 19:03:44 -0500 Subject: Univac 422 sighting In-Reply-To: <4B532AD3.2324.140CD7D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B519BA0.13703.4E85CE@cclist.sydex.com> <4B52F7F0.1950.7A08E7@cclist.sydex.com> <4B532AD3.2324.140CD7D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Rectangular slots in the panel? Yes. > Hmmm, one could build a whole computer using 6977s as the active > device. ?Wouild make a heckuva glow-in-the-dark display... You could - but keep in mind they are simply awful triodes. People are using them as in-base UV201 subs, due to their crummy specs. Until recently, I had a large stock of EM80 "eye" tubes - probably enough for a 4 bit machine. -- Will From hachti at hachti.de Sun Jan 17 18:05:02 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 01:05:02 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: References: <1227CD05-1223-4666-A7AE-A26D23964FD3@neurotica.com> <4B53942D.4030109@hachti.de> <9FA7AE30-E89C-4594-8EE4-0311AA3859E5@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B53A5AE.3060303@hachti.de> Tobias Russell wrote: > Every machine I've encountered that runs MS Vista seems to get slower with > time! Wiping out Vista and installing Linux seems to resolve that problem > though. My Windows experience is not recent enough to confirm that :-) :-) :-) -- http://www.hachti.de From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jan 17 18:19:53 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 16:19:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <4B53942D.4030109@hachti.de> References: <1227CD05-1223-4666-A7AE-A26D23964FD3@neurotica.com> <4B53942D.4030109@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20100117161705.U90240@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 17 Jan 2010, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > > Because Thing B is faster, Thing A is no longer useful? > That reminds me of a thought I have from time to time when confronted with statements like "The > computer is already x years old, it' getting too slow and must be replaced" -- A computer doesn't > get slower with time.....! Unless it is running an OS that adds additional crap from relatively unknown sources on an ongoing basis, and needs to be reinstalled periodically. But, surely, nobody would be stupid enough to build and market such an OS. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 17 18:25:50 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 19:25:50 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <20100117161705.U90240@shell.lmi.net> References: <1227CD05-1223-4666-A7AE-A26D23964FD3@neurotica.com> <4B53942D.4030109@hachti.de> <20100117161705.U90240@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Jan 17, 2010, at 7:19 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Because Thing B is faster, Thing A is no longer useful? >> That reminds me of a thought I have from time to time when >> confronted with statements like "The >> computer is already x years old, it' getting too slow and must be >> replaced" -- A computer doesn't >> get slower with time.....! > > Unless it is running an OS that adds additional crap from relatively > unknown sources on an ongoing basis, and needs to be reinstalled > periodically. But, surely, nobody would be stupid enough to build and > market such an OS. A small number of people are stupid enough to build and market it. An astonishingly large number of people are stupid enough to actually use it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Jan 17 18:29:00 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 00:29:00 +0000 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B53AB4C.8090105@philpem.me.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > Minor cuts/bruises/strains/burns are, alas, something that happens all > too frequenctly. (particuarly the cuts and burns...) I try to avoid them, > of course, but they happen. Cuts, lacerations and bruises tend to be all too common when working on any computer, not just old iron. The copper heatsink in my machine (Zalman CNPS9500AT if you want to look it up) has a bunch of sheets of thin copper radiating out from the centre of a fan/heatpipe assembly. It's also about 2" from the back panel of the machine.... just close enough for you to catch the back of your hand on it when plugging in the front panel headers. Can't remember the last time I burned myself working on a PC though. On "old iron", never (I haven't had the joy of working on a PDP or similar, though "some form of PDP11" is still on my "things I want to have owned at least once in my lifetime" list). Last time I burned myself with a soldering iron was when I was trying to fix the Jupiter Ace (which reminds me, I still haven't managed to get Lee Davison to return that thing... grrrr...) Can't say I've burned myself with a soldering iron since I swapped the Antex XS out for a 660TC, though. Unfortunately the original iron/handpiece blew; I swapped it for a TC50 (50W temperature controlled) and whatever "new style RoHS compliant" plastic they're using now is nowhere near as heat-insulating as the old stuff. At about 300C, the handle can only be held comfortably for a few minutes at a time. Take it up to 400C and that goes down to seconds -- it must be getting to 50 or 60C at least. Thankfully the further back you go from the tip the cooler the plastic is -- if you hold the iron about halfway between the end of the plastic grip and the cable, it's fine. Makes it a bit of a pig to control, though. >> After typing that, it occurred to me that there are actually >> people here who only do this for recreational purposes, and there are >> actually people here who had never seen or used (say) a PDP-11 when > > Actually, I fit both of those. I do it because I enjoy it, and the first > PDP11 I really saw was the 11/45 I own. I knew what a PDP11 was long > before that, of course, and wanted one. But there have been many machines > that I didn't even know existed before I obtained one. I've had a play with SIMH and a PDP11 assembler, does that count? :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Jan 17 18:31:21 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 00:31:21 +0000 Subject: Collections:thinning out In-Reply-To: <3188C5EB-85B5-4D63-A916-7C6EE8864745@neurotica.com> References: <4B4E3BCE.3040303@snarc.net><6dbe3c381001131357x667e75bfm11bb49e89300436e@mail.gmail.com><4B4DDF9A.11760.11F6F5F@cclist.sydex.com> , <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> <4B4EB3F7.5020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4F30EF.7020906@compsys.to> <4B4F51DC.8080105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4FBA4F.3090009@compsys.to> <4B4FC843.1070205@jetnet.ab.ca> <3188C5EB-85B5-4D63-A916-7C6EE8864745@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B53ABD9.1080105@philpem.me.uk> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 14, 2010, at 8:43 PM, Ben wrote: >> Bookmarked until the next PC crash! > > Why on earth do people use systems like that? Unbelievable. Most of them can be tamed by replacing the hordes of leaking electrolytic capacitors (wikipedia: Capacitor Plague) on the motherboard, then wiping the HDD and installing some form of Linux. It's worked three times for me... No guarantees for others, I just use *nix-type OSes because I don't like the swiss-cheese security (if it's even *that* good.. wire mesh probably has less holes) of Windoze. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Jan 17 18:58:35 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 16:58:35 -0800 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: References: <1227CD05-1223-4666-A7AE-A26D23964FD3@neurotica.com> <4B53942D.4030109@hachti.de> <20100117161705.U90240@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B53B23B.7060205@mail.msu.edu> Dave McGuire wrote: > >> >> Unless it is running an OS that adds additional crap from relatively >> unknown sources on an ongoing basis, and needs to be reinstalled >> periodically. But, surely, nobody would be stupid enough to build and >> market such an OS. > > A small number of people are stupid enough to build and market it. > An astonishingly large number of people are stupid enough to actually > use it. > Thanks, I appreciate these clearly on-topic remarks insulting my intelligence. Josh > -Dave > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 17 19:04:07 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 20:04:07 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <4B53B23B.7060205@mail.msu.edu> References: <1227CD05-1223-4666-A7AE-A26D23964FD3@neurotica.com> <4B53942D.4030109@hachti.de> <20100117161705.U90240@shell.lmi.net> <4B53B23B.7060205@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <5270CF59-022F-4783-BFAE-24DB8B38CA46@neurotica.com> On Jan 17, 2010, at 7:58 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> Unless it is running an OS that adds additional crap from relatively >>> unknown sources on an ongoing basis, and needs to be reinstalled >>> periodically. But, surely, nobody would be stupid enough to >>> build and >>> market such an OS. >> >> A small number of people are stupid enough to build and market >> it. An astonishingly large number of people are stupid enough to >> actually use it. >> > > Thanks, I appreciate these clearly on-topic remarks insulting my > intelligence. Present company excluded, of course. If you were the only person writing code for Windows, I'm sure it'd be much better. Seriously. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jan 17 19:15:52 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 17:15:52 -0800 Subject: power supply problem In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > Subject: Re: power supply problem > Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 14:43:31 -0500 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > On Jan 17, 2010, at 2:07 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> It has a trangle with a lamda in it. > > > > I've heard of Lambda brand PSUs, and I've heard they used 'odd' ICs > > that > > are now unobtainium. I could well believe a 723 with a difference > > reference is the sortof trick they'd pull... > > I've used lots and lots of Lambda power supplies, mostly bench > units. They are absolutely top-notch for "spare no expense" > projects. (thank heaven I can get them on the surplus market) I've > never seen one die, so I can't speak to the "odd IC" problem, but as > a frequent user over the years, I have nothing but good things to say > about them. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > Hi The only problem I've had is their " long life " electrolytics. I've had to replace several of these on their LED readout supplies. These are used for the low voltage supplies used for the IC's of the display. Still, they are the most robust supplies I've worked with. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390708/direct/01/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jan 17 19:27:12 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 17:27:12 -0800 Subject: power supply problem In-Reply-To: References: from "dwight elvey" at Jan 17, 10 10:15:11 am, Message-ID: > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > Subject: Re: power supply problem > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 19:07:37 +0000 > > > It has a trangle with a lamda in it. > > I've heard of Lambda brand PSUs, and I've heard they used 'odd' ICs that > are now unobtainium. I could well believe a 723 with a difference > reference is the sortof trick they'd pull... > > -tony > Hi Tony It seems to be otherwise the same pins as the generic 723. I'm just going to us one of these with a slight change in feedback resistor divider. It is in the power supply for my Nicolet Scope. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390707/direct/01/ From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Jan 17 20:09:49 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 18:09:49 -0800 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <5270CF59-022F-4783-BFAE-24DB8B38CA46@neurotica.com> References: <1227CD05-1223-4666-A7AE-A26D23964FD3@neurotica.com> <4B53942D.4030109@hachti.de> <20100117161705.U90240@shell.lmi.net> <4B53B23B.7060205@mail.msu.edu> <5270CF59-022F-4783-BFAE-24DB8B38CA46@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B53C2ED.3080502@mail.msu.edu> Dave McGuire wrote: > >> >> Thanks, I appreciate these clearly on-topic remarks insulting my >> intelligence. > > Present company excluded, of course. If you were the only person > writing code for Windows, I'm sure it'd be much better. Seriously. Well, look, I try not to take personal offense to any of it (sometimes I fail in this department, for example, today...). I try to have a fairly thick skin, as is required. But I no longer buy the argument that people are stupid for running a particular operating system, and if they _only knew better_ they'd all be running MacOS/Linux/Workbench 3.1/CPM 2.2/The Hurd/Toggle switches on an IMSAI. You can insult the OS (hey, I do...) but I think it's unfair to insult so many _people_ with such a wide brush. I find it untenable to judge someone based on the *operating system* they choose (or allow) to run on their computer. (I instead judge them by shoe size, it's much easier.) It sometimes bothers me that every other discussion here about old hardware eventually devolves into Microsoft bashing, as if there's some unwritten requirement to occasionally assure everyone that no, they're still not a Communi...er Windows-lover. Look, I used to wear my Operating System of Choice on my sleeve. I was 15. (The OS was Slackware Linux). I also used to write "M$" or "Windoze." I'm not 15 years old any more, name-calling has become rather passe. As far as my OS-alignment, I'm fairly neutral, which is to say I hate all Operating Systems equally. There are things about Windows that make me insane, there are things about Linux that make me want to pull my hair out. Sometimes I want to throw my Sparc IPC through the window. I try to not make my OS choice(s) into a religion. (If I did, I'd have a major spiritual crisis on my hands given the wide variety of machines in my collection.) To bring this back on topic, I guess what I'm trying to say is: This is a classic computing list, not Slashdot. Can we have religious arguments about VMS vs. UNIX instead? :) Also: I wish I had a fortune to spend on that 8/L. (Also the 8/I). And while I'm wishing, a nice climate-controlled barn for them would be nice too. And a pony. Josh > > -Dave > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jan 17 20:19:05 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 21:19:05 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <4B53C2ED.3080502@mail.msu.edu> References: <1227CD05-1223-4666-A7AE-A26D23964FD3@neurotica.com> <4B53942D.4030109@hachti.de> <20100117161705.U90240@shell.lmi.net> <4B53B23B.7060205@mail.msu.edu> <5270CF59-022F-4783-BFAE-24DB8B38CA46@neurotica.com> <4B53C2ED.3080502@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: > You can insult the OS (hey, I do...) but I think it's unfair to insult so > many _people_ with such a wide brush. Don't take it personally. Microsoft bashing is basically Unix masturbation. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 17 20:26:35 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 21:26:35 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: References: <1227CD05-1223-4666-A7AE-A26D23964FD3@neurotica.com> <4B53942D.4030109@hachti.de> <20100117161705.U90240@shell.lmi.net> <4B53B23B.7060205@mail.msu.edu> <5270CF59-022F-4783-BFAE-24DB8B38CA46@neurotica.com> <4B53C2ED.3080502@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <09E6D410-E165-418F-86F7-D5F27CE0D094@neurotica.com> On Jan 17, 2010, at 9:19 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> You can insult the OS (hey, I do...) but I think it's unfair to >> insult so >> many _people_ with such a wide brush. > > Don't take it personally. Microsoft bashing is basically Unix > masturbation. Ahem, I'd not recommend starting that battle, because I'm liable to finish it. $ uname -a SunOS ns 5.9 Generic_118558-37 sun4u sparc SUNW,UltraSPARC-IIi-cEngine $ uptime 9:22pm up 1054 day(s), 22:29, 1 user, load average: 1.22, 2.03, 2.12 $ That's a DNS server. ~300 zones, ~50 queries per second, 24hrs/day. 'nuff said. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 17 20:28:18 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 21:28:18 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <4B53C2ED.3080502@mail.msu.edu> References: <1227CD05-1223-4666-A7AE-A26D23964FD3@neurotica.com> <4B53942D.4030109@hachti.de> <20100117161705.U90240@shell.lmi.net> <4B53B23B.7060205@mail.msu.edu> <5270CF59-022F-4783-BFAE-24DB8B38CA46@neurotica.com> <4B53C2ED.3080502@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 17, 2010, at 9:09 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Also: I wish I had a fortune to spend on that 8/L. (Also the 8/ > I). And while I'm wishing, a nice climate-controlled barn for them > would be nice too. And a pony. You and me both! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 17 20:36:35 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 21:36:35 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <4B53C2ED.3080502@mail.msu.edu> References: <1227CD05-1223-4666-A7AE-A26D23964FD3@neurotica.com> <4B53942D.4030109@hachti.de> <20100117161705.U90240@shell.lmi.net> <4B53B23B.7060205@mail.msu.edu> <5270CF59-022F-4783-BFAE-24DB8B38CA46@neurotica.com> <4B53C2ED.3080502@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <15D3EC82-E0CE-4259-8F90-FD97C4EC18D2@neurotica.com> On Jan 17, 2010, at 9:09 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > I try to not make my OS choice(s) into a religion. Labeling this as a religious argument is as rudely dismissive as it is incorrect. It's not a religious argument...it's a usability and stability argument, and it's quite valid. Again, present company excluded...I've seen your work, and in my opinion, you seriously know what you're doing. If the other Windows developers had even half of your level of clue, it wouldn't need to be reinstalled every time you turn around, viruses wouldn't exist, and it wouldn't be so damn slow...which are three problems a long list of other OSs, some UNIX and some not, simply don't have. Please forgive me for jumping up and down about it, but this week I'm squarely in the middle of a fairly large "pleaaaaase rescue me from Windows hell" migration and it is giving me one heck of a headache. If I bill the poor guy for all the time it's taking (thanks to proprietary crap and other shameless lock-in attempts) I'd put a really nice chain of stores out of business, so I'm ending up eating most of the hours myself. *grumble* -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Jan 17 21:07:36 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 21:07:36 -0600 Subject: Intel MDS-225 development system available in Mineapolis, MN In-Reply-To: <592287.28994.qm@web110612.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <592287.28994.qm@web110612.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B53D078.4050102@gmail.com> steven stengel wrote: > I am passing this along, as I am too far away to acquire this system. > > The owner would appreciate a few hundred dollars or so, if it is worthy, otherwise make an offer. > It is very big and heavy - pick up in person preferred. > I have photos, I will post them somewhere is desired. > It's a good looking system! It's close enough for me to pick up next time I'm down that way (probably in a couple of months, though). Whether I can justify a 'few hundred' is another matter... Maybe I'll prod 'em tomorrow and at least gauge what its fate is likely to be if they can't find a local buyer. Sounds like they're clued-up enough not to just junk it, though. It's really nice to see something reasonably local for once! cheers Jules From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Jan 17 21:20:35 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 21:20:35 -0600 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <15D3EC82-E0CE-4259-8F90-FD97C4EC18D2@neurotica.com> References: <1227CD05-1223-4666-A7AE-A26D23964FD3@neurotica.com> <4B53942D.4030109@hachti.de> <20100117161705.U90240@shell.lmi.net> <4B53B23B.7060205@mail.msu.edu> <5270CF59-022F-4783-BFAE-24DB8B38CA46@neurotica.com> <4B53C2ED.3080502@mail.msu.edu> <15D3EC82-E0CE-4259-8F90-FD97C4EC18D2@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201001180321.o0I3LApw091242@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 08:36 PM 1/17/2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > Labeling this as a religious argument is as rudely dismissive as >it is incorrect. It's not a religious argument...it's a usability >and stability argument, and it's quite valid. I think it's a testament to what sort of unreliability is tolerable to many people. Compare and contrast to land lines versus cell phones. People cheerfully pay twice as much for a portable phone that is far less reliable than their land line. - John From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jan 17 21:22:28 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 19:22:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: from William Donzelli at "Jan 17, 10 09:19:05 pm" Message-ID: <201001180322.o0I3MSJY017064@floodgap.com> > > You can insult the OS (hey, I do...) but I think it's unfair to insult so > > many _people_ with such a wide brush. > > Don't take it personally. Microsoft bashing is basically Unix masturbation. But why would a eunuch do that? (*) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Imagination is the one weapon in the war against reality. -- de Gaultier --- (*)I'll get my coat From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 17 21:27:00 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 19:27:00 -0800 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: References: , <4B53C2ED.3080502@mail.msu.edu>, Message-ID: <4B536484.16946.2222990@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Jan 2010 at 21:19, William Donzelli wrote: > Don't take it personally. Microsoft bashing is basically Unix > masturbation. I view it as evolution (or devolution) of the same argument that's been going on since more than one firm built a computer. DG vs. DEC, IBM vs. (fill in the blank), 6800 vs. 8080; 8080 vs. 6502; 68000 vs. 8086.... Since everyone's using an x86 architecture now, the hardware wars are a little silly, so we've devolved into OS comparisons. If everyone were running the same OS, we'd have a browswer war... Oh, wait... --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jan 17 21:28:41 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 19:28:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <4B536484.16946.2222990@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Jan 17, 10 07:27:00 pm" Message-ID: <201001180328.o0I3SfQ5018726@floodgap.com> > Since everyone's using an x86 architecture now, ... which makes me really sad, actually. I'm intentionally trying to stay PowerPC for that reason, because I want to support a little hardware heterogeneity. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TODAY'S HEADLINES: Corduroy pillows ---------------------------------------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 17 21:40:30 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 22:40:30 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <4B536484.16946.2222990@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B53C2ED.3080502@mail.msu.edu>, <4B536484.16946.2222990@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Jan 17, 2010, at 10:27 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Since everyone's using an x86 architecture now, the hardware wars are > a little silly, so we've devolved into OS comparisons. They are? I'm not. My company isn't. My last three companies didn't. Most of my consulting customers aren't. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 17 21:42:14 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 22:42:14 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <201001180321.o0I3LApw091242@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <1227CD05-1223-4666-A7AE-A26D23964FD3@neurotica.com> <4B53942D.4030109@hachti.de> <20100117161705.U90240@shell.lmi.net> <4B53B23B.7060205@mail.msu.edu> <5270CF59-022F-4783-BFAE-24DB8B38CA46@neurotica.com> <4B53C2ED.3080502@mail.msu.edu> <15D3EC82-E0CE-4259-8F90-FD97C4EC18D2@neurotica.com> <201001180321.o0I3LApw091242@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: On Jan 17, 2010, at 10:20 PM, John Foust wrote: >> Labeling this as a religious argument is as rudely dismissive as >> it is incorrect. It's not a religious argument...it's a usability >> and stability argument, and it's quite valid. > > I think it's a testament to what sort of unreliability is tolerable > to many people. Compare and contrast to land lines versus cell > phones. > People cheerfully pay twice as much for a portable phone that > is far less reliable than their land line. True. "Tolerance" is supposed to be this big great wonderful thing, but it got us made-in-China garbage from Wal*Mart, Microsoft Windows, and phones that drop calls for no real technical reason. Tolerance is overrated and misunderstood. And we're all paying the price. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jan 17 21:50:35 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 19:50:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <4B53C2ED.3080502@mail.msu.edu> References: <1227CD05-1223-4666-A7AE-A26D23964FD3@neurotica.com> <4B53942D.4030109@hachti.de> <20100117161705.U90240@shell.lmi.net> <4B53B23B.7060205@mail.msu.edu> <5270CF59-022F-4783-BFAE-24DB8B38CA46@neurotica.com> <4B53C2ED.3080502@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20100117193247.S90240@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 17 Jan 2010, Josh Dersch wrote: > It sometimes bothers me that every other discussion here about old > hardware eventually devolves into Microsoft bashing, as if there's some > unwritten requirement to occasionally assure everyone that no, they're > still not a Communi...er Windows-lover. > . . . > To bring this back on topic, I guess what I'm trying to say is: This is > a classic computing list, not Slashdot. Can we have religious arguments > about VMS vs. UNIX instead? :) I apologize for igniting a religious battle. That was not my intent; instead, I was giving a factual reference to refute Philipp Hachtmann's otherwise quite reasonable claim that "A computer doesn't get slower with time...!" Design choices were made that reduced the stability of Windows, in order to make it more adaptable to "multimedia" (dancing kangaroos, etc.), because that is what the public wants. We are not particularly representative of the generaal public. I use Windows a lot. I wish that there were a configuration choice to make it rigidly unchangeable, so that reinstallation would not ever be necessary -- but, I am not who it was designed for. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 17 22:07:20 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 20:07:20 -0800 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: References: , <4B536484.16946.2222990@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B536DF8.32308.24715A7@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Jan 2010 at 22:40, Dave McGuire wrote: > They are? > > I'm not. My company isn't. My last three companies didn't. Most > of my consulting customers aren't. I was talking about "new personal computers", not cellphones, PDAs, servers, gaming consoles or derivatives thereof. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jan 17 22:14:49 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 23:14:49 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <4B536DF8.32308.24715A7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B536484.16946.2222990@cclist.sydex.com> <4B536DF8.32308.24715A7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > I was talking about "new personal computers", not ?cellphones, PDAs, > servers, gaming consoles or derivatives thereof. Servers...beyond POWER and x86, what is there? Alpha and MIPS are dead, the Unisys architectures are emulated, Itanium is stillborn, and SPARC is on life support (with Larry reaching for the plug). -- Will From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jan 17 22:19:01 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 21:19:01 -0700 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <4B536484.16946.2222990@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B53C2ED.3080502@mail.msu.edu>, <4B536484.16946.2222990@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B53E135.1020106@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 17 Jan 2010 at 21:19, William Donzelli wrote: > >> Don't take it personally. Microsoft bashing is basically Unix >> masturbation. > > I view it as evolution (or devolution) of the same argument that's > been going on since more than one firm built a computer. > > DG vs. DEC, IBM vs. (fill in the blank), 6800 vs. 8080; 8080 vs. > 6502; 68000 vs. 8086.... > > Since everyone's using an x86 architecture now, the hardware wars are > a little silly, so we've devolved into OS comparisons. > > If everyone were running the same OS, we'd have a browswer war... > > Oh, wait... umm ... the first 0S/8 browser wanted with graphics ( grey scale ) too. :) > --Chuck > PS: remember you only have 32K of core! Ben. From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Jan 17 22:24:15 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 20:24:15 -0800 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <15D3EC82-E0CE-4259-8F90-FD97C4EC18D2@neurotica.com> References: <1227CD05-1223-4666-A7AE-A26D23964FD3@neurotica.com> <4B53942D.4030109@hachti.de> <20100117161705.U90240@shell.lmi.net> <4B53B23B.7060205@mail.msu.edu> <5270CF59-022F-4783-BFAE-24DB8B38CA46@neurotica.com> <4B53C2ED.3080502@mail.msu.edu> <15D3EC82-E0CE-4259-8F90-FD97C4EC18D2@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B53E26F.3090709@mail.msu.edu> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 17, 2010, at 9:09 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> I try to not make my OS choice(s) into a religion. > > Labeling this as a religious argument is as rudely dismissive as it > is incorrect. It's not a religious argument...it's a usability and > stability argument, and it's quite valid. Is it really? I guess I just don't understand why the discussion keeps popping up seemingly out of nowhere all the time. (This topic started on a discussion of the value of a PDP 8/L.) Usability is subjective, and people tend to like what they're accustomed to, so it does seem more like a religious argument there. I've had no stability problems with my Windows machines in years, aside from the occasional driver issue (raises a fist in anger at Creative Labs). Then again, I don't administrate high-load servers so I can't comment from the trenches there. > > Again, present company excluded...I've seen your work, and in my > opinion, you seriously know what you're doing. If the other Windows > developers had even half of your level of clue, There are lots of smart developers at Microsoft. Never underestimate the ability of management to screw with the ideals of developers. (I have had some *really good* managers in my time, but these are offset by the *really bad* ones...) > it wouldn't need to be reinstalled every time you turn around, If you're truly needing to reinstall Windows at all often, you're doing something wrong. (Unless it's Windows 95, in which case keep at it, I guess.) > viruses wouldn't exist, I know, old history, but the Morris worm infected what OSes? Written by what smart people? Viruses will always exist as long as humans are writing operating systems and software -- people do make mistakes and buffers get overrun or information gets leaked. Microsoft unfortunately does not have a good track record here (they did not learn from history), and I'm not going to attempt to candy coat it. We do try to make things better, I think for the most part we are heading in the right direction. We still have far to go. Windows 7 runs users as unprivileged by default (about time) and Internet Explorer 7/8 actually runs at even lower privilege than that (it does not have permissions to write to the filesystem or registry except in blessed locations, etc...) so even browser plugins that are vectors can't do any damage (other than possibly crashing the browser process.) (Not that this excuses Windows. Why all user accounts until the middle of this decade were in the Administrators group is beyond me. Well, I can guess -- most software pre-NT assumed a user could do anything since it wasn't written for a networked, multi-user system. Management decreed "thou must be backwards compatible" and so *poof* every user has to be able to do everything. And as a result, most Windows software is written to assume it can do anything (and thus *has* to run as an Admin).) The scarier thing I think, is that a lot of viruses (such as they are) these days are actually trojans or social engineering rather than code exploits. Where I used to work, people would get e-mail attachments -- in *password encrypted* ZIP files with instructions on how to unzip the files and install them -- that contained spyware. Meaning it required real work to get yourself infected. Despite the difficulty of the installation, despite us telling people constantly not to open them, not to run the program, to just delete the mails, we still had to clean peoples' machines constantly. (We eventually got better mail filtering software.) The number of true virus attack vectors (faulty APIs, etc...) in Windows is dwindling, but the social aspect is what is worrisome, and affects every OS as long as it gives unwary users enough rope to shoot themselves in the foot with. (i.e. a mail that asks the user "To see nekkid girls, type "su" at the prompt, type your Ubuntu administrator password, then type chmod u+x "naked-girls-not-really-a-security-exploit.sh" ...) > and it wouldn't be so damn slow...which are three problems a long list > of other OSs, some UNIX and some not, simply don't have. Vista was damned slow. (I'm sorry.) Windows XP or 7 runs snappily on my underpowered netbook. (I know, it's no 486, but then, Solaris doesn't run well on that either :)). > > Please forgive me for jumping up and down about it, but this week > I'm squarely in the middle of a fairly large "pleaaaaase rescue me > from Windows hell" migration and it is giving me one heck of a > headache. If I bill the poor guy for all the time it's taking (thanks > to proprietary crap and other shameless lock-in attempts) I'd put a > really nice chain of stores out of business, so I'm ending up eating > most of the hours myself. Best of luck. Sorry for your pain. Hope none of it is my fault :). (Also sorry for derailing this thread further. If anyone wants to discuss, feel free to mail me offlist...) - Josh > > *grumble* > > -Dave > From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Jan 17 22:52:47 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 20:52:47 -0800 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <4B53E135.1020106@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <4B53C2ED.3080502@mail.msu.edu>, <4B536484.16946.2222990@cclist.sydex.com> <4B53E135.1020106@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4B53E91F.5040406@mail.msu.edu> Ben wrote: > > umm ... the first 0S/8 browser wanted with graphics ( grey scale ) too. > :) >> --Chuck >> > PS: remember you only have 32K of core! > Ben. > You want that with or without Javascript support? - Josh From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Jan 17 22:54:20 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 23:54:20 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <4B52BB78.5050603@hachti.de> References: <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> <4B4EB3F7.5020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4F30EF.7020906@compsys.to> <4B4F51DC.8080105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4FBA4F.3090009@compsys.to> <4B52BB78.5050603@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 17, 2010 at 2:25 AM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> ?Part of what makes them desirable is >> >> that they are now ?over 40 years old and when found, usually complete >> enough to run and quite portable. > > Portable, yes. But also quite useless. Not completely. >You can add peripherals to the IO bus - if you have them. Or a high-speed paper tape reader/punch with in-cabinet boards (one of the few peripherals). > But you cannot run OS/8 on the machine. No. I'm still trying to build up my first PDP-8/L to that level - and haven't succeeded yet. In the meantime, it does run FOCAL. > For that purpose > you'd need an expansion box with further 4K. And then you're at the 8/L's > maximum. Not so... I have an 8K external box on an -8/L - total of 12K. Yes, it's 100% DEC. > AFAIK the basic system can be fitted with paper tape interfaces. > That makes it a bit more usable. If you have the bare machine, you can > toggle in programs and run paper tape software and - very important - spend > your day waiting for the teletype to read in your program. One of my -8/Ls came with high-speed punch/reader - that's much easier to live with, but not all that common. > Core memory was quite common with /e/f/m systems as well! Even the /a sold > with core. But I have no info about the relation between /a with and without > core. Any -8/e can take core. I think there were some non-core-capable PSUs sold in some models of -8/m. There are definitely two different revisions of the -8/a that are core-capable and MOS-memory-only. > I'm quite curious about the 8/i's end price on eBay! I am, too. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 17 23:03:22 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 00:03:22 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <4B536DF8.32308.24715A7@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B536484.16946.2222990@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B536DF8.32308.24715A7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <01383BD2-D9E1-4572-9C4A-D271D53AD79F@neurotica.com> On Jan 17, 2010, at 11:07 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> They are? >> >> I'm not. My company isn't. My last three companies didn't. Most >> of my consulting customers aren't. > > I was talking about "new personal computers", not cellphones, PDAs, > servers, gaming consoles or derivatives thereof. Ahhhh. So not "everybody" after all. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Jan 17 23:02:29 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 00:02:29 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/L value Message-ID: <01CA97D1.883AE2C0@MSE_D03> Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 16:58:35 -0800 From: Josh Dersch Subject: Re: PDP-8/L value ---------------Original Message: Dave McGuire wrote: > >> >> Unless it is running an OS that adds additional crap from relatively >> unknown sources on an ongoing basis, and needs to be reinstalled >> periodically. But, surely, nobody would be stupid enough to build and >> market such an OS. > > A small number of people are stupid enough to build and market it. > An astonishingly large number of people are stupid enough to actually > use it. > Thanks, I appreciate these clearly on-topic remarks insulting my intelligence. Josh --------------Reply: Doesn't bother me. When I read someone stating that only a moron would think a computer might crash if the hard disk fills up, or repeatedly generalizing that people are stupid based on their choice (if they have a choice) of operating systems (both of which apply to me), I just remind myself that it says more about his/her intelligence etc. than that of the people being judged. Same thing if the criterion for stupidity were race, religion or shoe size... m From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 17 23:05:40 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 00:05:40 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: References: <4B536484.16946.2222990@cclist.sydex.com> <4B536DF8.32308.24715A7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <0EB3870E-76EA-4D8F-AE2C-EFB4E5AD23B0@neurotica.com> On Jan 17, 2010, at 11:14 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I was talking about "new personal computers", not cellphones, PDAs, >> servers, gaming consoles or derivatives thereof. > > Servers...beyond POWER and x86, what is there? Alpha and MIPS are > dead, the Unisys architectures are emulated, Itanium is stillborn, and > SPARC is on life support (with Larry reaching for the plug). You're right about Alpha, Mips, and Itanium, but you're badly misinformed about SPARC. It is neither on life support, nor is Larry reaching for the plug. In fact, he has publicly stated that SPARC development will be *increasing*. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 17 23:38:01 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 21:38:01 -0800 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <0EB3870E-76EA-4D8F-AE2C-EFB4E5AD23B0@neurotica.com> References: , , <0EB3870E-76EA-4D8F-AE2C-EFB4E5AD23B0@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B538339.3377.29A1C3B@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Jan 2010 at 0:05, Dave McGuire wrote: > You're right about Alpha, Mips, and Itanium, but you're badly > misinformed about SPARC. It is neither on life support, nor is Larry > reaching for the plug. In fact, he has publicly stated that SPARC > development will be *increasing*. Now THAT'S religion! Didn't AMD shed their fab sometime recently? Maybe the Chinese will be dictating new architectures in the future... --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 17 23:39:45 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 00:39:45 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <01CA97D1.883AE2C0@MSE_D03> References: <01CA97D1.883AE2C0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <989F1854-5379-48A6-ABB0-5D7CFE599BB1@neurotica.com> On Jan 18, 2010, at 12:02 AM, M H Stein wrote: > Doesn't bother me. When I read someone stating that only a moron > would think > a computer might crash if the hard disk fills up, or repeatedly > generalizing that > people are stupid based on their choice (if they have a choice) of > operating > systems (both of which apply to me), I just remind myself that it > says more > about his/her intelligence etc. than that of the people being judged. Ahh, right. Clearly this is so. ;) > Same thing if the criterion for stupidity were race, religion or > shoe size... And this is EXACTLY the same thing, surely. *sigh* -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 17 23:40:46 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 00:40:46 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <20100117193247.S90240@shell.lmi.net> References: <1227CD05-1223-4666-A7AE-A26D23964FD3@neurotica.com> <4B53942D.4030109@hachti.de> <20100117161705.U90240@shell.lmi.net> <4B53B23B.7060205@mail.msu.edu> <5270CF59-022F-4783-BFAE-24DB8B38CA46@neurotica.com> <4B53C2ED.3080502@mail.msu.edu> <20100117193247.S90240@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <0C003BC8-D85E-4421-9252-2679794BA091@neurotica.com> On Jan 17, 2010, at 10:50 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Design choices were made that reduced the stability of Windows, in > order > to make it more adaptable to "multimedia" (dancing kangaroos, etc.), > because that is what the public wants. We are not particularly > representative of the generaal public. I use Windows a lot. I > wish that > there were a configuration choice to make it rigidly unchangeable, > so that > reinstallation would not ever be necessary -- but, I am not who it was > designed for. This is the most coherent statement I've seen on this subject matter in a very long time. Actually, ever. I am impressed. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Jan 17 23:40:27 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 21:40:27 -0800 Subject: C64 power bricks: What to do with. Message-ID: <4B53F44B.9000802@mail.msu.edu> Well, in my tenure as a computer-enthusiast/obsessive, I've amassed a number of the original, black Commodore 64 power supplies. (I don't know _how_ this happened, as I own only two C64s and one VIC-20...) I know their reputation as being ticking time bombs as regards reliability, so I don't use them. I assume they're not repairable, being potted power supplies. Is there _any_ reason to hold on to these, would anyone actually be interested in one or more of them, or should I just toss them (or turn them into doorstops, I suppose...) Thanks, Josh From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jan 17 23:44:30 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 21:44:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: C64 power bricks: What to do with. In-Reply-To: <4B53F44B.9000802@mail.msu.edu> from Josh Dersch at "Jan 17, 10 09:40:27 pm" Message-ID: <201001180544.o0I5iULD014068@floodgap.com> > Well, in my tenure as a computer-enthusiast/obsessive, I've amassed a > number of the original, black Commodore 64 power supplies. (I don't > know _how_ this happened, as I own only two C64s and one VIC-20...) I > know their reputation as being ticking time bombs as regards > reliability, so I don't use them. I assume they're not repairable, > being potted power supplies. > > Is there _any_ reason to hold on to these, would anyone actually be > interested in one or more of them, or should I just toss them (or turn > them into doorstops, I suppose...) I don't hang onto them. As soon as I find a repairable replacement, I bin them. However, I usually use 128s instead of 64s nowadays, which have much better (and maintainable) PSUs. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "Thunderball" -------------------------------------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 17 23:48:04 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 00:48:04 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <4B53E26F.3090709@mail.msu.edu> References: <1227CD05-1223-4666-A7AE-A26D23964FD3@neurotica.com> <4B53942D.4030109@hachti.de> <20100117161705.U90240@shell.lmi.net> <4B53B23B.7060205@mail.msu.edu> <5270CF59-022F-4783-BFAE-24DB8B38CA46@neurotica.com> <4B53C2ED.3080502@mail.msu.edu> <15D3EC82-E0CE-4259-8F90-FD97C4EC18D2@neurotica.com> <4B53E26F.3090709@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 17, 2010, at 11:24 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> I try to not make my OS choice(s) into a religion. >> >> Labeling this as a religious argument is as rudely dismissive as >> it is incorrect. It's not a religious argument...it's a usability >> and stability argument, and it's quite valid. > > Is it really? I guess I just don't understand why the discussion > keeps popping up seemingly out of nowhere all the time. (This > topic started on a discussion of the value of a PDP 8/L.) That is a very good question. ;) > Usability is subjective, and people tend to like what they're > accustomed to, so it does seem more like a religious argument there. Well, *some* people only like what they're accustomed to. I point again at stability, viruses, and performance. Am I accustomed to non- Windows OSs? Yes. I've never been a regular Windows user. But I like to think that I have better judgment than to bash something simply because I'm unfamiliar with it. I have real data points. > I've had no stability problems with my Windows machines in years, > aside from the occasional driver issue (raises a fist in anger at > Creative Labs). Then again, I don't administrate high-load servers > so I can't comment from the trenches there. And you also happen to be one of its developers. Software is most stable when used by the people who wrote it. This is why big programming shops have testing groups that are not comprised of the people who wrote the code. >> Again, present company excluded...I've seen your work, and in my >> opinion, you seriously know what you're doing. If the other >> Windows developers had even half of your level of clue, > > There are lots of smart developers at Microsoft. Never > underestimate the ability of management to screw with the ideals of > developers. (I have had some *really good* managers in my time, > but these are offset by the *really bad* ones...) Is bad management really a problem there? I suppose it is everywhere, but I guess I've never heard about this. >> it wouldn't need to be reinstalled every time you turn around, > > If you're truly needing to reinstall Windows at all often, you're > doing something wrong. (Unless it's Windows 95, in which case keep > at it, I guess.) I'm primarily talking about XP. In my (very small) circle of local friends, I've seen three XP reinstalls happen since the beginning of the year. >> viruses wouldn't exist, > > I know, old history, but the Morris worm infected what OSes? You're citing ONE virus? The last Windows box I reformatted had HUNDREDS. Come on, man. > Written by what smart people? Viruses will always exist as long as > humans are writing operating systems and software -- people do make > mistakes and buffers get overrun or information gets leaked. It's true, yes. > Microsoft unfortunately does not have a good track record here > (they did not learn from history), and I'm not going to attempt to > candy coat it. We do try to make things better, I think for the > most part we are heading in the right direction. We still have far > to go. Agreed on all points. > Windows 7 runs users as unprivileged by default (about time) and > Internet Explorer 7/8 actually runs at even lower privilege than > that (it does not have permissions to write to the filesystem or > registry except in blessed locations, etc...) so even browser > plugins that are vectors can't do any damage (other than possibly > crashing the browser process.) Is it true the the registry is broken into separate parts now? > (Not that this excuses Windows. Why all user accounts until the > middle of this decade were in the Administrators group is beyond > me. Well, I can guess -- most software pre-NT assumed a user could > do anything since it wasn't written for a networked, multi-user > system. Management decreed "thou must be backwards compatible" and > so *poof* every user has to be able to do everything. And as a > result, most Windows software is written to assume it can do > anything (and thus *has* to run as an Admin).) That particular management decision gave us easily 90% of the world's viruses, and more than half of today's spam. That guy should be beaten. Badly. >> and it wouldn't be so damn slow...which are three problems a long >> list of other OSs, some UNIX and some not, simply don't have. > > Vista was damned slow. (I'm sorry.) Windows XP or 7 runs snappily > on my underpowered netbook. (I know, it's no 486, but then, > Solaris doesn't run well on that either :)). I've not yet seen 7 in person. Is it really that much faster? >> Please forgive me for jumping up and down about it, but this >> week I'm squarely in the middle of a fairly large "pleaaaaase >> rescue me from Windows hell" migration and it is giving me one >> heck of a headache. If I bill the poor guy for all the time it's >> taking (thanks to proprietary crap and other shameless lock-in >> attempts) I'd put a really nice chain of stores out of business, >> so I'm ending up eating most of the hours myself. > > Best of luck. Sorry for your pain. Hope none of it is my fault :). Thanks. I kinda doubt any of it was your fault. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 17 23:48:44 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 00:48:44 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <4B538339.3377.29A1C3B@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <0EB3870E-76EA-4D8F-AE2C-EFB4E5AD23B0@neurotica.com> <4B538339.3377.29A1C3B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <2B28C8C5-6832-4884-960D-42CD547D392F@neurotica.com> On Jan 18, 2010, at 12:38 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> You're right about Alpha, Mips, and Itanium, but you're badly >> misinformed about SPARC. It is neither on life support, nor is Larry >> reaching for the plug. In fact, he has publicly stated that SPARC >> development will be *increasing*. > > Now THAT'S religion! Huh? > Didn't AMD shed their fab sometime recently? Maybe the Chinese will > be dictating new architectures in the future... They did? That's a scary thought. They had some big fabs! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 18 00:04:48 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 22:04:48 -0800 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <2B28C8C5-6832-4884-960D-42CD547D392F@neurotica.com> References: , <4B538339.3377.29A1C3B@cclist.sydex.com>, <2B28C8C5-6832-4884-960D-42CD547D392F@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B538980.9010.2B2A06A@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Jan 2010 at 0:48, Dave McGuire wrote: > They did? That's a scary thought. They had some big fabs! They call it "spun off", but essentially now owned by Abu Dhabi money. See: http://techreport.com/discussions.x/16505 The fab is now called "The Foundry Company". Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 18 00:09:05 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 22:09:05 -0800 Subject: ex-AMD Fab In-Reply-To: <2B28C8C5-6832-4884-960D-42CD547D392F@neurotica.com> References: , <4B538339.3377.29A1C3B@cclist.sydex.com>, <2B28C8C5-6832-4884-960D-42CD547D392F@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B538A81.7532.2B68EC3@cclist.sydex.com> A bit more of a followup on the AMD fab story: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/01/14/globalfoundries_chartered_comb o/ AMD still owns a minority share, but expect that to decrease as the operation expands. --Chuck From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Jan 18 00:09:12 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 22:09:12 -0800 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: References: <1227CD05-1223-4666-A7AE-A26D23964FD3@neurotica.com> <4B53942D.4030109@hachti.de> <20100117161705.U90240@shell.lmi.net> <4B53B23B.7060205@mail.msu.edu> <5270CF59-022F-4783-BFAE-24DB8B38CA46@neurotica.com> <4B53C2ED.3080502@mail.msu.edu> <15D3EC82-E0CE-4259-8F90-FD97C4EC18D2@neurotica.com> <4B53E26F.3090709@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4B53FB08.7080502@mail.msu.edu> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 17, 2010, at 11:24 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> Is it really? I guess I just don't understand why the discussion >> keeps popping up seemingly out of nowhere all the time. (This topic >> started on a discussion of the value of a PDP 8/L.) > > That is a very good question. ;) > >> Usability is subjective, and people tend to like what they're >> accustomed to, so it does seem more like a religious argument there. > > Well, *some* people only like what they're accustomed to. I point > again at stability, viruses, and performance. Am I accustomed to > non-Windows OSs? Yes. I've never been a regular Windows user. But I > like to think that I have better judgment than to bash something > simply because I'm unfamiliar with it. I have real data points. I was rebutting your point about *usability* here. Usability (i.e. look & feel, etc.) is subjective. I address stability & performance elsewhere. > >> I've had no stability problems with my Windows machines in years, >> aside from the occasional driver issue (raises a fist in anger at >> Creative Labs). Then again, I don't administrate high-load servers >> so I can't comment from the trenches there. > > And you also happen to be one of its developers. Software is most > stable when used by the people who wrote it. This is why big > programming shops have testing groups that are not comprised of the > people who wrote the code. I wasn't always one of its developers. And it's not like I *know* of every bug in the system and carefully step around them to avoid crashing my personal boxes at home. I work on a very small component of Windows, it's ridiculous to think that I use the vast majority of it any differently than a casual user. Hell, I file bugs against it all the time when testing private builds... > >>> Again, present company excluded...I've seen your work, and in my >>> opinion, you seriously know what you're doing. If the other Windows >>> developers had even half of your level of clue, >> >> There are lots of smart developers at Microsoft. Never underestimate >> the ability of management to screw with the ideals of developers. (I >> have had some *really good* managers in my time, but these are offset >> by the *really bad* ones...) > > Is bad management really a problem there? I suppose it is > everywhere, but I guess I've never heard about this. Vista was _definitely_ the result of bad management. Can't speak to all of MS's other problems, though. > >>> it wouldn't need to be reinstalled every time you turn around, >> >> If you're truly needing to reinstall Windows at all often, you're >> doing something wrong. (Unless it's Windows 95, in which case keep >> at it, I guess.) > > I'm primarily talking about XP. In my (very small) circle of local > friends, I've seen three XP reinstalls happen since the beginning of > the year. I'd suggest getting a decent antivirus on them (AVG does a good job, as do the Microsoft offerings). If they're falling to pieces for reasons other than malware, then something's very wrong. > >>> viruses wouldn't exist, >> >> I know, old history, but the Morris worm infected what OSes? > > You're citing ONE virus? The last Windows box I reformatted had > HUNDREDS. Come on, man. You said "viruses wouldn't exist," primarily due to "smart people working on software." I pointed out that UNIX had a huge virus, despite many smart developers working on it. That was my only point in saying the above -- viruses will always exist, no matter what. > >> Written by what smart people? Viruses will always exist as long as >> humans are writing operating systems and software -- people do make >> mistakes and buffers get overrun or information gets leaked. > > It's true, yes. > >> Microsoft unfortunately does not have a good track record here >> (they did not learn from history), and I'm not going to attempt to >> candy coat it. We do try to make things better, I think for the most >> part we are heading in the right direction. We still have far to go. > > Agreed on all points. > >> Windows 7 runs users as unprivileged by default (about time) and >> Internet Explorer 7/8 actually runs at even lower privilege than that >> (it does not have permissions to write to the filesystem or registry >> except in blessed locations, etc...) so even browser plugins that are >> vectors can't do any damage (other than possibly crashing the browser >> process.) > > Is it true the the registry is broken into separate parts now? It's always been (if you're talking about the various hives). The registry has also has had its own security model, so bad apps running in low integrity can't read/write stuff they might be able to exploit. > >> (Not that this excuses Windows. Why all user accounts until the >> middle of this decade were in the Administrators group is beyond me. >> Well, I can guess -- most software pre-NT assumed a user could do >> anything since it wasn't written for a networked, multi-user system. >> Management decreed "thou must be backwards compatible" and so *poof* >> every user has to be able to do everything. And as a result, most >> Windows software is written to assume it can do anything (and thus >> *has* to run as an Admin).) > > That particular management decision gave us easily 90% of the > world's viruses, and more than half of today's spam. That guy should > be beaten. Badly. Agreed. > >>> and it wouldn't be so damn slow...which are three problems a long >>> list of other OSs, some UNIX and some not, simply don't have. >> >> Vista was damned slow. (I'm sorry.) Windows XP or 7 runs snappily >> on my underpowered netbook. (I know, it's no 486, but then, Solaris >> doesn't run well on that either :)). > > I've not yet seen 7 in person. Is it really that much faster? In my experiences, yes. Machines I'd never have put Vista on if you paid me run it well (I have an 8-year-old Acer tablet running it right now and it's very nice.) Maybe a bit slower than XP. > >>> Please forgive me for jumping up and down about it, but this week >>> I'm squarely in the middle of a fairly large "pleaaaaase rescue me >>> from Windows hell" migration and it is giving me one heck of a >>> headache. If I bill the poor guy for all the time it's taking >>> (thanks to proprietary crap and other shameless lock-in attempts) >>> I'd put a really nice chain of stores out of business, so I'm ending >>> up eating most of the hours myself. >> >> Best of luck. Sorry for your pain. Hope none of it is my fault :). > > Thanks. I kinda doubt any of it was your fault. Probably not :) - Josh > > -Dave > From chrise at pobox.com Sun Jan 17 07:27:25 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 07:27:25 -0600 Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: <201001171236.48118.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> References: <201001171236.48118.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: <20100117132725.GP29564@n0jcf.net> On Sunday (01/17/2010 at 12:36PM +1030), Alexis wrote: > On Sun, 17 Jan 2010 12:18:56 pm Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > What could be wrong with a transformer that it would > > produce something like: > > > > __ > > / \ > > | \ > > / \_ > > / \ > > | / > > | / > > \_/ > > > > bent and very squared off at spots? > > I've found that mains is hardly ever a nice sine wave. All of my transformer > outputs look a little wonky in some way. Are you looking at the output of the transformer while the bridge rectifier is still connected? You may be seeing distortion due to a bad diode in the bridge which may then explain some of the additional problems downstream. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From iamvirtual at gmail.com Sun Jan 17 12:45:45 2010 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 11:45:45 -0700 Subject: Infoton Terminals Message-ID: <2645f9871001171045s2017dd1bpf74e4998894bf9fb@mail.gmail.com> I am looking for manuals on Infoton terminals. I believe these terminals are from the early 1970's. I searched using Google, but I have not found any documents relating to these machines. Via Google, it appears Infoton changed name to General Terminal. Here is the information I have about the terminals: Infoton Model: 1200/3 09200-G01-0M Serial: 26795 Any leads would be greatly appreciated. Thanks --barrym From chrise at pobox.com Sun Jan 17 15:31:39 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 15:31:39 -0600 Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: References: <4B52F3E8.29456.6A4794@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100117213139.GL9653@n0jcf.net> On Sunday (01/17/2010 at 07:42PM +0000), Tony Duell wrote: > > > > On 17 Jan 2010 at 18:40, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > 3) There is resistor in parallel with the regulator. > > > > MITS did this routinely and it wouldn't surprise me if they did this > > on the 680. In particular, I remember that the +5 supply for the 4K > > Oh, right... The OP says he has the schematics, do they show any such > resistor. Yes. There is a 15 ohm, 2W resistor from the input to the output of VR-1, a 7805 regulator. Danger Will Robinson. -- Chris Elmquist From hachti at hachti.de Mon Jan 18 06:43:51 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:43:51 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <4B53C2ED.3080502@mail.msu.edu> References: <1227CD05-1223-4666-A7AE-A26D23964FD3@neurotica.com> <4B53942D.4030109@hachti.de> <20100117161705.U90240@shell.lmi.net> <4B53B23B.7060205@mail.msu.edu> <5270CF59-022F-4783-BFAE-24DB8B38CA46@neurotica.com> <4B53C2ED.3080502@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4B545787.4030707@hachti.de> > Also: I wish I had a fortune to spend on that 8/L. (Also the 8/I). > And while I'm wishing, a nice climate-controlled barn for them would be > nice too. And a pony. climate-controlled is not necessary. Open the window when the /i is running for longer time. And wear only panties and a t-shirt while working with it :P The 8/L is so handy that you can even put it into the dish washer in one piece (I just haven't a dish washer, so I have to manually wash it in pieces). :-) -- http://www.hachti.de From hachti at hachti.de Mon Jan 18 06:51:36 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:51:36 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <4B53E91F.5040406@mail.msu.edu> References: , <4B53C2ED.3080502@mail.msu.edu>, <4B536484.16946.2222990@cclist.sydex.com> <4B53E135.1020106@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B53E91F.5040406@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4B545958.30203@hachti.de> > You want that with or without Javascript support? JavaScript....of course.... and FLASH! :-) -- http://www.hachti.de From hachti at hachti.de Mon Jan 18 06:57:49 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:57:49 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: References: <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> <4B4EB3F7.5020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4F30EF.7020906@compsys.to> <4B4F51DC.8080105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4FBA4F.3090009@compsys.to> <4B52BB78.5050603@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4B545ACD.4080701@hachti.de> >> You can add peripherals to the IO bus - if you have them. > > Or a high-speed paper tape reader/punch with in-cabinet boards (one of > the few peripherals). Want that, want that! I still have a spare PC04 sitting around. Perhaps I could combine that... > >> But you cannot run OS/8 on the machine. > > No. I'm still trying to build up my first PDP-8/L to that level - and > haven't succeeded yet. What's missing? Disk? > In the meantime, it does run FOCAL. Oh yes, Focal and Chekmo..... >> For that purpose >> you'd need an expansion box with further 4K. And then you're at the 8/L's >> maximum. > > Not so... I have an 8K external box on an -8/L - total of 12K. Yes, > it's 100% DEC. How that? I derived my statement from the fact that there is only one field select switch on the machine. How do you control the third field? >> AFAIK the basic system can be fitted with paper tape interfaces. >> That makes it a bit more usable. If you have the bare machine, you can >> toggle in programs and run paper tape software and - very important - spend >> your day waiting for the teletype to read in your program. > > One of my -8/Ls came with high-speed punch/reader - that's much easier > to live with, but not all that common. Want it, want it! How many of those do you have? >> Core memory was quite common with /e/f/m systems as well! Even the /a sold >> with core. But I have no info about the relation between /a with and without >> core. >> I'm quite curious about the 8/i's end price on eBay! > > I am, too. This is all strange. I'd never been able to even think of touching that DEC gear if I had to pay those prices... Who has so much money left? Why don't those people just look for the machines? -- http://www.hachti.de From hachti at hachti.de Mon Jan 18 07:33:30 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 14:33:30 +0100 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B4CCA9C.1080006@atarimuseum.com> References: <4B4CCA9C.1080006@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4B54632A.9050700@hachti.de> For my complete H316 rack we were four people to carry it... Later I transported it only in pieces (as most gear). But.... When I initially picked it up in Switzerland, an older guy (~65) carried it on his back from the attic down to the street (2 floors). The original seller and I only helped to keep the direction and balance. That guy was mad. Only comment was s.th. like "I've worked in the wood business" :-) Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Sridhar and I were moving a DEC cabinet up some stairs behind my house a > few years back and we all lost grip of it and it nearly took out > Sridhar, yeah --- cab's are big and heavy!!! I also had an Asteroids > upright arcade come down on my chest while loading it into a u-haul back > in 2001, not fun I can tell you, hurt like h*ll > > > > Curt > > > > Simon Fryer wrote: >> Man crushed to death by computer gear >> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/12/2790875.htm >> >> Simon >> >> -- http://www.hachti.de From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 18 07:48:53 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 08:48:53 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <4B545ACD.4080701@hachti.de> References: <4B4EB3F7.5020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4F30EF.7020906@compsys.to> <4B4F51DC.8080105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4FBA4F.3090009@compsys.to> <4B52BB78.5050603@hachti.de> <4B545ACD.4080701@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 7:57 AM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >>> You can add peripherals to the IO bus - if you have them. >> >> Or a high-speed paper tape reader/punch with in-cabinet boards (one of >> the few peripherals). > > Want that, want that! I still have a spare PC04 sitting around. Perhaps I > could combine that... You'd need the M710 (IIRC) and other boards. >>> But you cannot run OS/8 on the machine. >> >> No. ?I'm still trying to build up my first PDP-8/L to that level - and >> haven't succeeded yet. > > What's missing? Disk? Yes. >> Not so... I have an 8K external box on an -8/L - total of 12K. ?Yes, >> it's 100% DEC. > > How that? I derived my statement from the fact that there is only one field > select switch on the machine. How do you control the third field? My expansion box has a pair of DF/IF switches - it would theoretically support 16K, but there's only room in the box for two memory sets. >> One of my -8/Ls came with high-speed punch/reader - that's much easier >> to live with, but not all that common. > > Want it, want it! > How many of those do you have? Exactly 1. -ethan From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jan 18 08:28:58 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 08:28:58 -0600 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <0C003BC8-D85E-4421-9252-2679794BA091@neurotica.com> References: <1227CD05-1223-4666-A7AE-A26D23964FD3@neurotica.com> <4B53942D.4030109@hachti.de> <20100117161705.U90240@shell.lmi.net> <4B53B23B.7060205@mail.msu.edu> <5270CF59-022F-4783-BFAE-24DB8B38CA46@neurotica.com> <4B53C2ED.3080502@mail.msu.edu> <20100117193247.S90240@shell.lmi.net> <0C003BC8-D85E-4421-9252-2679794BA091@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201001181439.o0IEdDQb039794@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 11:40 PM 1/17/2010, Dave McGuire wrote: >On Jan 17, 2010, at 10:50 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>Design choices were made that reduced the stability of Windows, in order >>to make it more adaptable to "multimedia" (dancing kangaroos, etc.), >>because that is what the public wants. We are not particularly >>representative of the generaal public. I use Windows a lot. I wish that >>there were a configuration choice to make it rigidly unchangeable, >>so that reinstallation would not ever be necessary -- but, I am not who it was >>designed for. > > This is the most coherent statement I've seen on this subject >matter in a very long time. Actually, ever. I am impressed. That's Fred for you. :-) Windows can be locked down to a certain extent, of course. Only large institutions and malware take the time to do it. At 09:42 PM 1/17/2010, Dave McGuire wrote: >On Jan 17, 2010, at 10:20 PM, John Foust wrote: > True. "Tolerance" is supposed to be this big great wonderful >thing, but it got us made-in-China garbage from Wal*Mart, Microsoft >Windows, and phones that drop calls for no real technical reason. >Tolerance is overrated and misunderstood. And we're all paying the >price. I forgot video, too. Let's buy a new 1080p 50" television and then feed it MPEG distortion. Speaking of dancing animations and USA corporate cluster-stupidity, the original versions of the circa 1998 "dancing baby" animation were made with an add-on called Character Studio for 3D Studio Max from Kinetix, a branch of Autodesk. The 3D baby model was made years before by the company I was working for at the time, Viewpoint. The animation was licensed by another mo-cap company, Biovision. Viewpoint gave Kinetix the right to redistribute the baby model in exchange for a credit. The dancing baby was popularized by a recurring appearance as a hallucination of the main character of the television series "Ally McBeal". Autodesk PR promoted the fact it was produced in their software, but in fact many of the times it was on the air in the show, the animation was actually produced with a competing product, Lightwave. To top it all off, when Viewpoint intended to give-away a CD at a trade show containing a screen saver with a "dancing baby" animation, Autodesk slapped it with a cease-and-desist. - John From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 18 08:57:20 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 07:57:20 -0700 Subject: Collections:thinning out In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 18 Jan 2010 00:31:21 +0000. <4B53ABD9.1080105@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: In article <4B53ABD9.1080105 at philpem.me.uk>, Philip Pemberton writes: > It's worked three times for me... No guarantees for others, I just use > *nix-type OSes because I don't like the swiss-cheese security (if it's > even *that* good.. wire mesh probably has less holes) of Windoze. Yeah, VMS is such a piece of crap when it comes to security. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 18 08:58:25 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 07:58:25 -0700 Subject: Infoton Terminals In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 17 Jan 2010 11:45:45 -0700. <2645f9871001171045s2017dd1bpf74e4998894bf9fb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <2645f9871001171045s2017dd1bpf74e4998894bf9fb at mail.gmail.com>, B M writes: > I am looking for manuals on Infoton terminals. Are you looking to program for one or repair one? For the escape sequences you can probably figure it out from termcap/terminfo entries. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From hachti at hachti.de Mon Jan 18 10:41:44 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 17:41:44 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: References: <4B4EB3F7.5020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4F30EF.7020906@compsys.to> <4B4F51DC.8080105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4FBA4F.3090009@compsys.to> <4B52BB78.5050603@hachti.de> <4B545ACD.4080701@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4B548F48.9030502@hachti.de> > > You'd need the M710 (IIRC) and other boards. > Perhaps I'll find it "somewhere" :-) >>>> But you cannot run OS/8 on the machine. >>> No. I'm still trying to build up my first PDP-8/L to that level - and >>> haven't succeeded yet. >> What's missing? Disk? > > Yes. Hm, is there any sort of RK controller for the machine? >>> Not so... I have an 8K external box on an -8/L - total of 12K. Yes, >>> it's 100% DEC. >> How that? I derived my statement from the fact that there is only one field >> select switch on the machine. How do you control the third field? > > My expansion box has a pair of DF/IF switches - it would theoretically > support 16K, but there's only room in the box for two memory sets. Interesting. I don't even have those expansion boxes.... >>> One of my -8/Ls came with high-speed punch/reader - that's much easier >>> to live with, but not all that common. >> Want it, want it! >> How many of those do you have? > > Exactly 1. I asked for the amount of pdp8/L .-) And would a PC04 do the job? -- http://www.hachti.de From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Jan 18 14:04:40 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 21:04:40 +0100 Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: References: <4B52F3E8.29456.6A4794@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100118210440.ab2421d6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 17 Jan 2010 19:42:48 +0000 (GMT) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > [1] We (UK) often call that component a 'thyristor' by analogy with > 'thyratron' [...] > Is that name recognised elsewhere? It is called 'thyristor' in Germany too. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 18 14:05:20 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:05:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <0C003BC8-D85E-4421-9252-2679794BA091@neurotica.com> References: <1227CD05-1223-4666-A7AE-A26D23964FD3@neurotica.com> <4B53942D.4030109@hachti.de> <20100117161705.U90240@shell.lmi.net> <4B53B23B.7060205@mail.msu.edu> <5270CF59-022F-4783-BFAE-24DB8B38CA46@neurotica.com> <4B53C2ED.3080502@mail.msu.edu> <20100117193247.S90240@shell.lmi.net> <0C003BC8-D85E-4421-9252-2679794BA091@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20100118120033.N25719@shell.lmi.net> > On Jan 17, 2010, at 10:50 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Design choices were made that reduced the stability of Windows, in > > order > > to make it more adaptable to "multimedia" (dancing kangaroos, etc.), > > because that is what the public wants. We are not particularly > > representative of the generaal public. I use Windows a lot. I > > wish that > > there were a configuration choice to make it rigidly unchangeable, > > so that > > reinstallation would not ever be necessary -- but, I am not who it was > > designed for. On Mon, 18 Jan 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > This is the most coherent statement I've seen on this subject > matter in a very long time. Actually, ever. > I am impressed. I can only take half credit; Bob Wallace and I had some long discussions 20 years ago about the future of operating systems. The wording is mine; the analysis and predictions were shared speculation. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 18 14:16:44 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:16:44 -0800 Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: <20100118210440.ab2421d6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4B52F3E8.29456.6A4794@cclist.sydex.com>, , <20100118210440.ab2421d6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4B54512C.23571.F45929@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Jan 2010 at 21:04, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Sun, 17 Jan 2010 19:42:48 +0000 (GMT) > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > [1] We (UK) often call that component a 'thyristor' by analogy with > > 'thyratron' > [...] > > Is that name recognised elsewhere? > It is called 'thyristor' in Germany too. Both "thyristor" and "SCR" are used in the U.S., but "SCR" is easier to spell. "Thyristor" is more of a generic term that can include TRIACs, DIACs, SIDACs, LASCRs, and all manner of other 4-layer devices. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Jan 18 14:23:46 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 20:23:46 +0000 Subject: Collections:thinning out In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B54C352.4000606@philpem.me.uk> Richard wrote: > Yeah, VMS is such a piece of crap when it comes to security. I have no personal experience of using VMS, so I'm not going to comment on its security or alleged lack thereof. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From als at thangorodrim.de Mon Jan 18 14:15:39 2010 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 21:15:39 +0100 Subject: Collections:thinning out In-Reply-To: References: <4B53ABD9.1080105@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20100118201538.GA2588@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 07:57:20AM -0700, Richard wrote: > > In article <4B53ABD9.1080105 at philpem.me.uk>, > Philip Pemberton writes: > > > It's worked three times for me... No guarantees for others, I just use > > *nix-type OSes because I don't like the swiss-cheese security (if it's > > even *that* good.. wire mesh probably has less holes) of Windoze. > > Yeah, VMS is such a piece of crap when it comes to security. *sigh* Windows isn't VMS, despite the rather obvious similarities between VMS and Windows NT kernel internals. The really annoying thing about Windows security is that Windows has all the fundamental kernel level infrastructure to be far more secure than standard Unix, with much more fine grained security and privilege separation. Only ... as far as I'm aware, this is pretty much unused, even by Microsoft. Probably because properly securing a workstation environment (and that is where most Windows machines are used) without putting it into so much of a straightjacket as to be useless is _hard_. And requires active thought at the design phase of the user land software. Look how long it took for most application vendors to more or less grasp the idea of a multi-user system on Windows ... And so convenience wins over security, again. Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Jan 18 14:56:26 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:56:26 -0700 Subject: Collections:thinning out In-Reply-To: <20100118201538.GA2588@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <4B53ABD9.1080105@philpem.me.uk> <20100118201538.GA2588@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4B54CAFA.8090700@e-bbes.com> Alexander Schreiber wrote: > Look how long it took > for most application vendors to more or less grasp the idea of a > multi-user system on Windows ... This was a typo, wasn't it ? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 18 13:27:08 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 19:27:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <947301ca97b5$8d8db6b0$0101a8c0@Alexandre> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Jan 17, 10 06:41:27 pm Message-ID: > > >> Is any classic computer 'useful' _as a computer_ now? Even I realise > >> that > >> a modern PC will beat the heck out of just about any classic manchine... > > Hmm, maybe. I **do** prefer an original MSX to play nemesis than the > best emulation (BlueMSX) avaiable. Also, for running old hardware compatible > of course it is preferable! And I am sure you know which I'd rather have to repair or keep going :-). > Also, a MSX (or a TRS-80, or a CoCo, or something useful as a computer) Actually, I think I'll put in a plug for the BBC Micro again here. It has an excellent structured BASIC (but it's still interpretted BASIC, so you can type 10 FOR I = 1 TO 10 20 PRINT "Hello World" 30 NEXT I 40 END and RUN it with no more rigmarole, it also has a built-in 6502 assembler, USER and ADC ports for easy hardware add-ons, and so on. > is waaayyyy better to teach computer programming and general workings to a > child than a core2quad running crapXP with tons of icons and bilions of API > calls to learn before you write "hello, (expletive deleted) world" on the > screen. Yeo. And if you want to understnad how a computer really works, I think it's a lot easier to do so with a PDP8 or (old, Unibus) PDP11, the tech manuals, and some simple test gear than with any modern machine (even if by some piracly you have scheamtics...) And that's a perfectly good use of this 8/L, I suyspect... There's been a bit of talk in the UK recently about the use of computers in education. I still feel Seymor Papert (?spel) got it right and just about everyone else gets it wrong. The child should learn to program the computer, not have the computer program the child. I know that if I had children, I would object most strongly if computer lessons consisted of learning how to use popular-for-the-time applications (under any OS, this is not Windows-bashing!). I believe most people should learn to program, not because they are going to be employed as programmers, but because programming involves the essential skills of breaking a problem down, thinking how to solve each part, testing the solution, and so on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 18 14:08:32 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 20:08:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: from "Bill Sudbrink" at Jan 17, 10 05:32:38 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > Do you mean AC, or DC with excessive ripple. Did any of the lines go the > > wrong side of ground? (my guess is they didn't, but it's best to be sure). > > DC with excessive ripple. Nothing on the wrong side of ground but 60 and > 120 Hz waveforms almost down to ground. You would expect ot see 60Hz waveforms from a half-wave rectifier (one diode) with no smoothing, and 120Hz waveforms from a full-wave rectifier (either 2 diodes with a centre-tapped transformer winding or a 4-diode bridge rectifier) with no smoothing. The open-circuit capacitors would account for 'no smoothing', but if you have what appears to be a full-wave circuit giving 60Hz ripple, I would suspect faulty diodes too. > Yes, there is an 18 Ohm 2 Watt resistor between the +9 and +5 (the input > and output pins of the 7805). I was wondering what that is supposed to do. > Is this resistor causing the +5 side to "look higher" than it really is? No, the voltmeter is genuinely measuring the voltage on the 5V rail. It is 9V. The circuit _may_ be working -- if you incres the load, the output voltage may come down to 5V and then _stay there_ for increasing loads (that's more current, so lower resistance load, of course), until you get to tyhe point where the 7805 goes into current limiting. I explained the action of said resistor in another message, but the poster there said it was 15 ohms. If it's 18 Ohms, the principle is the same, you jkust have to re-do the calculations. > Is everything actually OK, even though my VOM and scope both agree the +5 > rail is at +9.2 _WITH_ automobile light dummy loads? What sort of car bulbs? What wattage? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 18 14:12:40 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 20:12:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <4B53942D.4030109@hachti.de> from "Philipp Hachtmann" at Jan 17, 10 11:50:21 pm Message-ID: > > > > Because Thing B is faster, Thing A is no longer useful? > That reminds me of a thought I have from time to time when confronted > with statements like "The > computer is already x years old, it' getting too slow and must be > ~replaced" -- A computer doesn't > get slower with time.....! Well, I hae no direct experience of this, but plenty of PC shops around here have adverts in the windo of the form 'Windows getting too slow? Have it re-installed here for only '. So perhaps at least one common OS does get slower with time... Incidentally, your comment is also true of amny other things. A 50Mhz 'scope made 40 years ago is _still_ a 50MHz 'scope. And I for one would rather hand cuch an instruemtn than a modern 'scope of the same quoted specidfications. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 18 13:47:36 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 19:47:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: <20100117213139.GL9653@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Jan 17, 10 03:31:39 pm Message-ID: > > > > 3) There is resistor in parallel with the regulator. > > > > > > MITS did this routinely and it wouldn't surprise me if they did this > > > on the 680. In particular, I remember that the +5 supply for the 4K > > > > Oh, right... The OP says he has the schematics, do they show any such > > resistor. > > Yes. There is a 15 ohm, 2W resistor from the input to the output of VR-1, > a 7805 regulator. OK. Let's analyse that circuit. A quick look at a 7805 data sheet will convince you it can only pull the output toiwards the input voltage, not towards ground. So if the output is already higher than 5V (in this case), the 7805 wioll do nothing. Consider the resistor on its own. The OP said there was an input voltage of 11.5V. SO there's 6.5V (11.5-5) to be dropped between the input and output -- without the 7805, that means the resistor is droping 6.5V and carrying 6.5V/15R = 0.4333A. If the load drwas less than 0.4333A, the output voltage will be higher than 5V. If it drwas more, then part of that current will be carried by the 7805, and the output will remain at 5V (without the 7805, of course, the output votlage would be less than 5V in this case). Light bulbs are an approximatley constant-current device. A 12V car bulb that draws 0.433A (at 12V) is a 5.2W bulb. If the load is significantly less than that, then of course the output voltage will be too high. > Danger Will Robinson. I could understand mentioning Heath Robinson here... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 18 14:16:40 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 20:16:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Univac 422 sighting In-Reply-To: <4B532AD3.2324.140CD7D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 17, 10 03:20:51 pm Message-ID: > > On 17 Jan 2010 at 17:46, William Donzelli wrote: > > > Clearly 6977 indicator tubes are used for the blinkenlights. > > Rectangular slots in the panel? Otherwise, your eyes are better than > mine. > > Hmmm, one could build a whole computer using 6977s as the active > device. Wouild make a heckuva glow-in-the-dark display... Are those similar to the DM160s used in Europe? Those are sub-minature triodes (about 1" long and 1/4" in diameter with 4 connections -- the 2 ends of the (1V or so) filament, control grid, and fluorescent anode. You need about 24V on the anod to get it to glow, and a -3V grid bias will curt the valve off and stop it glowing. They were used as indicators on computer/paper tape equipment in the 1960s (and then LEDs came and sp[oilt the fun!). I have mever tried cross-coupling a pair to make a flip-flop, now that would be an interesting project.... -tony > > Cheers, > Chuck > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 18 14:32:16 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 20:32:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B53AB4C.8090105@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jan 18, 10 00:29:00 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > Minor cuts/bruises/strains/burns are, alas, something that happens all > > too frequenctly. (particuarly the cuts and burns...) I try to avoid them, > > of course, but they happen. > > Cuts, lacerations and bruises tend to be all too common when working on > any computer, not just old iron. The copper heatsink in my machine Off-topic, but modern consumer electronics (particularly the cheap 'own brands' tends to be assembled in thin sheet-metal cases with edges that will give you a nasty-ish cut if you catch them. > Can't remember the last time I burned myself working on a PC though. On Modern components shouldn't get hot enough to burn you :-). Glassfets are another matter. And an IC that has developped internal shorts can get hot enough to burn you, some DRAMs were prone to this. > "old iron", never (I haven't had the joy of working on a PDP or similar, > though "some form of PDP11" is still on my "things I want to have owned > at least once in my lifetime" list). Last time I burned myself with a > soldering iron was when I was trying to fix the Jupiter Ace (which > reminds me, I still haven't managed to get Lee Davison to return that > thing... grrrr...) Yes, I was thinking of bruns from the soldering iron, or something heated by it Most of the time it's when I am soldering a piece of wire to a large-ish metal object (pin of a 4mm plug) and I don't let it cool for long enough before taking it out of the vice. Two nasty burns I;ce had from such causes were the time somebody tripped over the mains lead of my soldering iron, pulling the latter back through my hand so I ended up holding it by the metal shaft (and it was a few seconds before I realised it), and the tiome I dropped a blob of molten solder on my skin. -tony From doc at vaxen.net Mon Jan 18 15:18:11 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 15:18:11 -0600 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <0EB3870E-76EA-4D8F-AE2C-EFB4E5AD23B0@neurotica.com> References: <4B536484.16946.2222990@cclist.sydex.com> <4B536DF8.32308.24715A7@cclist.sydex.com> <0EB3870E-76EA-4D8F-AE2C-EFB4E5AD23B0@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B54D013.5010304@vaxen.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 17, 2010, at 11:14 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> I was talking about "new personal computers", not cellphones, PDAs, >>> servers, gaming consoles or derivatives thereof. >> >> Servers...beyond POWER and x86, what is there? Alpha and MIPS are >> dead, the Unisys architectures are emulated, Itanium is stillborn, and >> SPARC is on life support (with Larry reaching for the plug). > > You're right about Alpha, Mips, and Itanium, but you're badly > misinformed about SPARC. It is neither on life support, nor is Larry > reaching for the plug. In fact, he has publicly stated that SPARC > development will be *increasing*. The sad fact - and I currently admin more than a couple of Solaris servers - Sun is doing everything in its power to alienate its customers and become a casualty in the UNIX wars. Solaris 10 is a misbegotten joke, and Sun has changed the roadmap for the next version too many times for anyone to trust its placement in any large deployment. SXCE is dead as stone, and OpenSolaris is just Fedora with a different kernel and really shitty admin tools. As far as hardware goes, Fujitsu just might save SPARC, but if they do it will be in spite of Sun & Oracle. As stands today, in terms of raw processing power, scalability, power/thermal management, and sane OS development, SPARC is 10 years behind POWER with no clear means of closing the gap. Doc From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 18 15:21:18 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 21:21:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: <4B54512C.23571.F45929@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 18, 10 12:16:44 pm Message-ID: > > On 18 Jan 2010 at 21:04, Jochen Kunz wrote: > > > On Sun, 17 Jan 2010 19:42:48 +0000 (GMT) > > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > > [1] We (UK) often call that component a 'thyristor' by analogy with > > > 'thyratron' > > [...] > > > Is that name recognised elsewhere? > > It is called 'thyristor' in Germany too. > > Both "thyristor" and "SCR" are used in the U.S., but "SCR" is easier :-) > to spell. "Thyristor" is more of a generic term that can include > TRIACs, DIACs, SIDACs, LASCRs, and all manner of other 4-layer > devices. Right. Over here, AFAIK, a 'thyristor' was a 4-layer, 3 lead, unidirectional device, I've neer head it being used for any of the other devices. The name, I beliece, is derrived from the (ancient?) Greek 'Thura' meaning a door. I grew up calling them thyristors, but now normally call them SCRs since it causes less confusion. Similarly I learnt the German symbols for logic gates (the AND gate looks like what you'd expect, the OR gate looks like an AND gate -- it has a straight back -- but the input lines are continuted across the symbol to the curved face), but now use the normal US sysmbols when I'm drawing schematis, since everybody else does. I can still read a scehamtic using the German symbols, of course (nad often have to ;-)). I also learnt the zig-zag lien for a resistor, and nothing is going to get me to change that to the narrow rectangle used in the rest of Europe. Again I have no problem reading schemaitcs drawn with either symbol. -tony From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Jan 18 15:25:43 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:25:43 -0800 Subject: Collections:thinning out In-Reply-To: <20100118201538.GA2588@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <4B53ABD9.1080105@philpem.me.uk> <20100118201538.GA2588@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4B54D1D7.6020508@mail.msu.edu> Alexander Schreiber wrote: > On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 07:57:20AM -0700, Richard wrote: > >> In article <4B53ABD9.1080105 at philpem.me.uk>, >> Philip Pemberton writes: >> >> >>> It's worked three times for me... No guarantees for others, I just use >>> *nix-type OSes because I don't like the swiss-cheese security (if it's >>> even *that* good.. wire mesh probably has less holes) of Windoze. >>> >> Yeah, VMS is such a piece of crap when it comes to security. >> > > *sigh* > > Windows isn't VMS, despite the rather obvious similarities between VMS > and Windows NT kernel internals. The really annoying thing about Windows > security is that Windows has all the fundamental kernel level > infrastructure to be far more secure than standard Unix, with much more > fine grained security and privilege separation. Only ... as far as I'm > aware, this is pretty much unused, even by Microsoft. Probably because > properly securing a workstation environment (and that is where most > Windows machines are used) without putting it into so much of a > straightjacket as to be useless is _hard_. And requires active thought > at the design phase of the user land software. Look how long it took > for most application vendors to more or less grasp the idea of a > multi-user system on Windows ... > > And so convenience wins over security, again. > This is gonna be my last post on Windows here, honest. The above is true, at least for Windows up to XP. There was a legacy of code that assumed it had Admin privileges, and would not run otherwise. This caused Microsoft to decide to run users as Admins by default to maintain compatibility (and convenience) which at one time were paramount to security. This just encouraged more software to assume it could do anything, and so the cycle repeats. Windows Vista and Windows 7 are slowly breaking this trend. User accounts are no longer privileged by default. Registry and file accesses are virtualized, so bad apps that want to write to protected areas (like %windir%\system32, or the system registry hive) are told they *can* but the writes/reads are actually done to a different, safe location in the user's profile where possible, or denied where Microsoft has decided to put their foot down. This allows (most) bad applications to continue to run, while allowing the introduction of a much better security model for Windows. The intent is to winnow down the pool of these bad apps over time and eventually turn off the virtualization altogether. (see http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa965884%28VS.85%29.aspx). That is all, you may return to your regularly scheduled programming now. Josh > Regards, > Alex. > From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 18 15:25:56 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 14:25:56 -0700 Subject: Collections:thinning out In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 18 Jan 2010 21:15:39 +0100. <20100118201538.GA2588@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: In article <20100118201538.GA2588 at mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>, Alexander Schreiber writes: > On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 07:57:20AM -0700, Richard wrote: > > > > In article <4B53ABD9.1080105 at philpem.me.uk>, > > Philip Pemberton writes: > > > > > It's worked three times for me... No guarantees for others, I just use > > > *nix-type OSes because I don't like the swiss-cheese security (if it's > > > even *that* good.. wire mesh probably has less holes) of Windoze. > > > > Yeah, VMS is such a piece of crap when it comes to security. > > [...] > > And so convenience wins over security, again. Right. In other words, it has absolutely nothing at all to do with Windows per se. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 18 15:33:14 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:33:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100118133215.U25719@shell.lmi.net> > > ~replaced" -- A computer doesn't > > get slower with time.....! On Mon, 18 Jan 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > Well, I hae no direct experience of this, but plenty of PC shops around > here have adverts in the windo of the form 'Windows getting too slow? > Have it re-installed here for only '. So perhaps at least one > common OS does get slower with time... You said it much more tactfully than I had done. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 18 16:00:02 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 14:00:02 -0800 Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: References: <4B54512C.23571.F45929@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 18, 10 12:16:44 pm, Message-ID: <4B546962.12462.152EB1F@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Jan 2010 at 21:21, Tony Duell wrote: > Similarly I learnt the German symbols for logic gates (the AND gate > looks like what you'd expect, the OR gate looks like an AND gate -- it > has a straight back -- but the input lines are continuted across the > symbol to the curved face), but now use the normal US sysmbols when I'm > drawing schematis, since everybody else does. I can still read a > scehamtic using the German symbols, of > course (nad often have to ;-)). I'dve thought that the EU would have changed over to those dreadful IEC symbols by now (BS/EU EN 60617-12:1999). I stumble through those with my nose held. It's like reading a musical score that's been reduced to text with note names and durations. There's no visual "flow". --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 18 16:11:07 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 14:11:07 -0800 Subject: Univac 422 sighting In-Reply-To: References: <4B532AD3.2324.140CD7D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 17, 10 03:20:51 pm, Message-ID: <4B546BFB.30467.15D0F50@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Jan 2010 at 20:16, Tony Duell wrote: > Are those similar to the DM160s used in Europe? Those are sub-minature > triodes (about 1" long and 1/4" in diameter with 4 connections -- the > 2 ends of the (1V or so) filament, control grid, and fluorescent > anode. They look to be the same device (also, the CV6094); at least the datasheets match up. Filament is 1.0V at 30 ma. --Chuck From cfox1 at cogeco.ca Mon Jan 18 16:12:14 2010 From: cfox1 at cogeco.ca (Charles E. Fox) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 17:12:14 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <20100118133215.U25719@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100118133215.U25719@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <85cokl$qte8b@fipsb04.cogeco.net> At 04:33 PM 1/18/2010, you wrote: > > > ~replaced" -- A computer doesn't > > > get slower with time.....! > >On Mon, 18 Jan 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > Well, I hae no direct experience of this, but plenty of PC shops around > > here have adverts in the windo of the form 'Windows getting too slow? > > Have it re-installed here for only '. So perhaps at least one > > common OS does get slower with time... > >You said it much more tactfully than I had done. > > >-- >Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 9.0.730 / Virus Database: 270.14.149/2630 - Release Date: >01/18/10 02:35:00 In my limited experience the reason that Windows computers slow down with time is that the average "user" lets every program or game that he installs insert itself into the START menu. I have found up to 48 programs there. A little free program like Winpatrol will let them keep it under control, but most of them are not that technically inclined. Cheers Charlie Fox From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 18 16:34:47 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 15:34:47 -0700 Subject: Collections:thinning out In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:25:43 -0800. <4B54D1D7.6020508@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: In article <4B54D1D7.6020508 at mail.msu.edu>, Josh Dersch writes: > Alexander Schreiber wrote: > > And so convenience wins over security, again. > > This is gonna be my last post on Windows here, honest. The above is > true, at least for Windows up to XP. [...] > > Windows Vista and Windows 7 are slowly breaking this trend. [...] The trend has been breaking slowly for a lot longer than that. Windows NT, Windows 2000 and Windows XP all "broke" the convenience that assumed every user acted as god in one way or another. Not to mention the changes in device driver models over that time. I think what has changed since Vista is that the users have started screaming more for security than for convenience and so Microsoft changed in response to that. Mostly this is due to people using their computers primarily for internet-related activity and not for what you might call "in situ" activity that only cared about their computer and no others. Vista didn't *add* security, it *removed* permissions. By this I mean that the security mechanisms were always in place but the default set of privileges and permissions granted to an ordinary user, and thus any program executing under that user's identity, was reduced to the bare minimum. Want to write your configuration file into ProgramFiles? Oops, that fails. The irony of all of this is that MS is the entity that gets the black eye for the resulting failure dialog that pops itself up in the user's face, not the vendor of the program. So the vendors make the mistakes and MS gets the blame. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 18 16:40:25 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 14:40:25 -0800 Subject: Windows slowness, was: PDP 8/L... In-Reply-To: <85cokl$qte8b@fipsb04.cogeco.net> References: , <20100118133215.U25719@shell.lmi.net>, <85cokl$qte8b@fipsb04.cogeco.net> Message-ID: <4B5472D9.23390.177E157@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Jan 2010 at 17:12, Charles E. Fox wrote: > In my limited experience the reason that Windows computers > slow down with time is that the average "user" lets every program or > game that he installs insert itself into the START menu. I have found > up to 48 programs there. A little free program like Winpatrol will let > them keep it under control, but most of them are not that technically > inclined. The big problem that I see with Windows is that any program that's installed insinuates itself throughout the system. It copies DLLs into the system folder, makes changes to the registry and may even spawn system processes. It's like crabgrass in your lawn. I try to keep my Windows systems running with minimum slowdown by putting applications, data and as much non-system related stuff on a different partition when I install. It helps, but a system reload usually entails re-installing everything again. Why the decision was made against "compartmentalizing" the changes that applications make to the system, is something I've never had satisfactory explained. When an application is uninstalled, it almost always leaves a pile of detritus behind in the registry. --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Jan 18 16:42:31 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 20:42:31 -0200 Subject: PDP-8/L value References: Message-ID: <06e601ca988f$c0699290$04000100@Alexandre> > Incidentally, your comment is also true of amny other things. A 50Mhz > 'scope made 40 years ago is _still_ a 50MHz 'scope. And I for one would As a 2GHz pentium 4 core 2 duo will always be. There is something people never put on the equation: The windows OS is more and more bloated on each revision, but also has more features. I'll not discuss the usefullness of these features, but it has more and more indeed. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Jan 18 16:46:48 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 20:46:48 -0200 Subject: Windows slowness, was: PDP 8/L... References: , <20100118133215.U25719@shell.lmi.net>, <85cokl$qte8b@fipsb04.cogeco.net> <4B5472D9.23390.177E157@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <070d01ca9890$2bc67760$04000100@Alexandre> > When an application is uninstalled, it almost always leaves a pile of > detritus behind in the registry. The better solution I've found for this (insert expletive here) problem, is to use virtual pc (free from microsoft) and virtual HDs. You have a windows just to use the net, another to use another thing, and so on. So when the thing got bloated, you just erase the "virtual HD" and spawn another copy. Very pratic. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jan 18 16:51:51 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 15:51:51 -0700 Subject: Windows OT In-Reply-To: <06e601ca988f$c0699290$04000100@Alexandre> References: <06e601ca988f$c0699290$04000100@Alexandre> Message-ID: <4B54E607.8080506@jetnet.ab.ca> Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > As a 2GHz pentium 4 core 2 duo will always be. There is something people > never put on the equation: The windows OS is more and more bloated on > each revision, but also has more features. I'll not discuss the > usefullness of these features, but it has more and more indeed. So now windows is all singing and dancing. I like a nice 80x25 full screen *text* editor for the work I do. I will leave animated menus and crap for the people that play with windows. Ben. From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Jan 18 17:14:40 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 18:14:40 -0500 Subject: Free for pickup: Sun Ray 100 Message-ID: <201001181814.40198.pat@computer-refuge.org> I have 3 new in box, and 3 new sans-box Sun Ray 100s free for pickup in downtown Lafayette, IN. I've got some keyboards and mice for them as well. I don't want to ship them unless you want to give me much more than they're worth. :) I'd rather give them away then trash them, but if they're not claimed by Jan 25, they'll get thrown out. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon Jan 18 17:26:12 2010 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 18:26:12 -0500 Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: <4B53262C.24403.12EA328@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Chuck Guzis wrote: > Put a load that pulls about 2A at 5V (a 10W 3 ohm resistor should > do) and see what your readings are. I built a test load by putting three one Ohm 10W resistors (available at the local Radio Shack) in series. With the test load, the +9 rail goes down to a little more than 8 and the +5 rail goes to about 4.8, smooth as glass on my scope. With that test, I decided to go ahead and reinstall the ICs. I've applied power and the +5 rail is between 5.1 and 5.2. The system seems to function as far as I can test it with my limited operations knowledge. I can deposit values in memory and they remain as long as power is applied. Now I need to learn a little 6800 machine code and try a short program. Thanks for all of the help. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jan 18 17:59:43 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 15:59:43 -0800 Subject: power supply problem In-Reply-To: <4B52E77F.3965.39CDDA@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4B52DE6F.2189.166631@cclist.sydex.com>, , , <4B52E77F.3965.39CDDA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 10:33:35 -0800 > Subject: RE: power supply problem > > On 17 Jan 2010 at 10:15, dwight elvey wrote: > > > It has a trangle with a lamda in it. > > > > The part number is: LAS 723 > > > > Date code: 7813 > > A quick search turns up that the LAS723 does indeed have a Vref of > 2.5v. datasheetarchive.com has the data sheet. > > Never heard of this one before. > > --Chuck > Hi I suspect that Lambda wanted to take advantage of two things. 2.5 volts is a typical output of a band-gap reference and the lower voltage meant that two less resistors were needed for voltages below 7 volts. I believe the original 723 design used zeners as references and these are a little more process dependent than the band-gap that depends more on physical geometry. It would have been nice if they used another name, something like 723-2.5. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390708/direct/01/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Jan 18 18:03:21 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:03:21 +0000 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B54F6C9.2020803@philpem.me.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > Off-topic, but modern consumer electronics (particularly the cheap 'own > brands' tends to be assembled in thin sheet-metal cases with edges that > will give you a nasty-ish cut if you catch them. I've stopped using the really cheap PC cases. The Antec 300 I'm using now seems to have had the metal edges rolled over at least once, which pretty much leaves it with smooth rounded edges that have the cutting ability of a wet paper towel. > Modern components shouldn't get hot enough to burn you :-). Exceptions: power transistors (esp. BJTs). SCRs. Big diodes. Well, just about anything that's handling more than about ~10W of power really... That said an un-heatsinked 7805 running at 1A output with a 12V input will run surprisingly hot, too, and that's only 7W. I've seen 7805s hit the temperature threshold (where the internal limiter kicks in and tries valiantly to stop a meltdown) and on some chips that's over 80C. Well over enough to cause a fair amount of pain, if not an actual burn. > Glassfets are another matter. Mmm, vacuum tubes. "After turning off main power, wait 15 minutes for valves to cool." > And an IC that has developped internal shorts can get hot > enough to burn you, some DRAMs were prone to this. A few old 1k*4 SRAMs did this too. 2114 anyone? Those things were nasty little buggers. If it wasn't a bad bit, it was a dead bitline, address line or just a dead chip shorting the power bus. Must be one of the least reliable SRAM chips ever made. > Yes, I was thinking of bruns from the soldering iron, or something heated > by it Most of the time it's when I am soldering a piece of wire to a > large-ish metal object (pin of a 4mm plug) and I don't let it cool for > long enough before taking it out of the vice. I seem to do that with startling regularity... Somehow the concept of objects touched by soldering irons also being hot hasn't quite sunk in yet. > it), and the tiome I dropped a blob of molten solder on my skin. Ouch! I've done that... Hurts like hell for a good few hours (if not days). I was trying to desolder a couple of 0805-size SMDs by putting a solder blob on the iron. Well, the blob got too big -- I slipped, the iron hit a metal heatsink, and the solder hit my hand. Urrrgh! My current worst burn is from my hot-air SMD soldering workstation -- I hit the STANDBY button, which sets the air pump to full speed and kills the power to the heater. Problem is, it also kills the temperature display. I figured it was probably cool, reached over it to get a roll of equipment wire and got a hot-air burn roughly midway between my wrist and elbow. There's still a dark red mark there, several months since. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 18 18:26:23 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:26:23 -0800 Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: References: <4B53262C.24403.12EA328@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B548BAF.6834.1D8E651@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Jan 2010 at 18:26, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > I built a test load by putting three one Ohm 10W resistors (available > at the local Radio Shack) in series. With the test load, the +9 rail > goes down to a little more than 8 and the +5 rail goes to about 4.8, > smooth as glass on my scope. With that test, I decided to go ahead > and reinstall the ICs. I've applied power and the +5 rail is between > 5.1 and 5.2. I strongly urge you to replace the 7805 and parallel resistor with an LM323T unit. The pinout and package are the same, but the current rating is 3A, not 1. This would give you a measure of protection that the resistor + 7805 does not afford. There are, of course, other regulator option, but the LM323T is the simplest. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 18 18:34:59 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:34:59 -0800 Subject: power supply problem In-Reply-To: References: , <4B52E77F.3965.39CDDA@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B548DB3.28860.1E0C739@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Jan 2010 at 15:59, dwight elvey wrote: >> I suspect that Lambda wanted to take advantage of two things. > 2.5 volts is a typical output of a band-gap reference and the > lower voltage meant that two less resistors were needed for > voltages below 7 volts. I believe that the "stock" 723 uses a 6.2V zener as a reference. Another possibility would be that they wanted a regulator that would operate with lower supply headroom, particularly for low voltages. . In any case, you're right about the part labeling. It is confusing. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jan 18 18:40:54 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 17:40:54 -0700 Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: <4B548BAF.6834.1D8E651@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B53262C.24403.12EA328@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B548BAF.6834.1D8E651@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B54FF96.9060802@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I strongly urge you to replace the 7805 and parallel resistor with an > LM323T unit. The pinout and package are the same, but the current > rating is 3A, not 1. This would give you a measure of protection > that the resistor + 7805 does not afford. But where do you get 3 amp heat sinks? All I ever see are the wimpy heat sinks. > There are, of course, other regulator option, but the LM323T is the > simplest. > > --Chuck > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 18 19:13:50 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 17:13:50 -0800 Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: <4B54FF96.9060802@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4B53262C.24403.12EA328@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B548BAF.6834.1D8E651@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B54FF96.9060802@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4B5496CE.23478.204567E@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Jan 2010 at 17:40, Ben wrote: > But where do you get 3 amp heat sinks? All I ever see are the wimpy > heat sinks. Well, at Radio Shack, to start with: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102857 But you could also just pull out your Aavid catalog and see what will work. For TO-220, how about this one: http://www.aavidthermalloy.com/cgi-bin/stdisp.pl?Pnum=568000b00000g If you had to leave the resistor/7805 in, I'd add a fuse and overvoltage crowbar across the output. Alternatively, one could use one of the switching regulator ICs, such as the Micrel MIC4576-5. Still a TO-220 package, but 5 leads and >70% efficiency requiring a couple of extra components. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Jan 18 19:30:00 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 17:30:00 -0800 Subject: power supply problem References: , , <4B52DE6F.2189.166631@cclist.sydex.com>, , , <4B52E77F.3965.39CDDA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B550B17.A5C8369A@cs.ubc.ca> dwight elvey wrote: > I suspect that Lambda wanted to take advantage of two things. > 2.5 volts is a typical output of a band-gap reference and the > lower voltage meant that two less resistors were needed for > voltages below 7 volts. > I believe the original 723 design used zeners as references > and these are a little more process dependent than the band-gap > that depends more on physical geometry. > It would have been nice if they used another name, something > like 723-2.5. Just as an addendum to the discussion, the 1981 IC Master lists Lambda Semiconductor as producing a bunch of voltage regulator ICs. The LAS723 and LAS723B are listed separately from the group list of manufacturers producing the 723 (the difference between them is not specified, however). Rather poor that they didn't modify the part number, as you say. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 18 20:07:05 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 21:07:05 -0500 Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: <4B5496CE.23478.204567E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B53262C.24403.12EA328@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B548BAF.6834.1D8E651@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B54FF96.9060802@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B5496CE.23478.204567E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <419F21DF-0021-4C34-9706-ADA971F86EC0@neurotica.com> On Jan 18, 2010, at 8:13 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Alternatively, one could use one of the switching regulator ICs, such > as the Micrel MIC4576-5. Still a TO-220 package, but 5 leads and >> 70% efficiency requiring a couple of extra components. I like the TI/PowerTrends PT78ST105. >85%, 1.5A, no external components. About the size of a TO220+heatsink. Very, very nice modules. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 18 20:32:18 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 18:32:18 -0800 Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: <419F21DF-0021-4C34-9706-ADA971F86EC0@neurotica.com> References: <4B53262C.24403.12EA328@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B5496CE.23478.204567E@cclist.sydex.com>, <419F21DF-0021-4C34-9706-ADA971F86EC0@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B54A932.10459.24C2E86@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Jan 2010 at 21:07, Dave McGuire wrote: > I like the TI/PowerTrends PT78ST105. >85%, 1.5A, no external > components. About the size of a TO220+heatsink. Very, very nice > modules. I agree, but I'm not sure that a 1.5A rating is enough for this application. The Micrel part is rated for 3A. It's all good--my idea of a "voltage regulator IC" used to be a 741 op amp feeding a darlington. :) --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 18 20:40:22 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 21:40:22 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <4B54D013.5010304@vaxen.net> References: <4B536484.16946.2222990@cclist.sydex.com> <4B536DF8.32308.24715A7@cclist.sydex.com> <0EB3870E-76EA-4D8F-AE2C-EFB4E5AD23B0@neurotica.com> <4B54D013.5010304@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <3CD349E4-C86A-4918-AC6A-2E6370BFBF45@neurotica.com> On Jan 18, 2010, at 4:18 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: >>>> I was talking about "new personal computers", not cellphones, >>>> PDAs, >>>> servers, gaming consoles or derivatives thereof. >>> >>> Servers...beyond POWER and x86, what is there? Alpha and MIPS are >>> dead, the Unisys architectures are emulated, Itanium is >>> stillborn, and >>> SPARC is on life support (with Larry reaching for the plug). >> You're right about Alpha, Mips, and Itanium, but you're badly >> misinformed about SPARC. It is neither on life support, nor is >> Larry reaching for the plug. In fact, he has publicly stated that >> SPARC development will be *increasing*. > > The sad fact - and I currently admin more than a couple of > Solaris servers - Sun is doing everything in its power to alienate > its customers and become a casualty in the UNIX wars. They do have pretty bad management. They're not alienating *me*, though, because I don't deal with their management. If I need something of theirs, I buy it from them. If you talk to their suits, you're, well, talking to suits. Don't do that. > Solaris 10 is a misbegotten joke, WTF? What kind of crack are you smoking, Doc? I'm running it on about twenty systems now and couldn't be happier. The performance is amazing, the functionality is amazing, the reliability is amazing...it has literally changed the way I "do computers" for both myself, my employer, and my other clients. I've used pretty much every UNIX variant over the years, and I can honestly tell you that I don't know how I got along without it for so long. > and Sun has changed the roadmap for the next version too many times > for anyone to trust its placement in any large deployment. "Roadmap"? Who pays attention to that suitly crap? > SXCE is dead as stone, and OpenSolaris is just Fedora with a > different kernel and really shitty admin tools. Fedora...? Doc! Go do some reading and learn what OpenSolaris is. I think you're talking about Nexenta. > As far as hardware goes, Fujitsu just might save SPARC, but if > they do it will be in spite of Sun & Oracle. As stands today, in > terms of raw processing power, scalability, power/thermal > management, and sane OS development, SPARC is 10 years behind POWER > with no clear means of closing the gap. I'd give you TWO years, not ten. The problem is that AIX is twice that many years behind Solaris in terms of manageability and lack-of- cruftiness, with no reasonable OS alternatives for the godlike hardware. Wow, excellent troll job, Doc. ;) -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 18 20:52:16 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 21:52:16 -0500 Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: <4B54A932.10459.24C2E86@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B53262C.24403.12EA328@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B5496CE.23478.204567E@cclist.sydex.com>, <419F21DF-0021-4C34-9706-ADA971F86EC0@neurotica.com> <4B54A932.10459.24C2E86@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Jan 18, 2010, at 9:32 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I like the TI/PowerTrends PT78ST105. >85%, 1.5A, no external >> components. About the size of a TO220+heatsink. Very, very nice >> modules. > > I agree, but I'm not sure that a 1.5A rating is enough for this > application. The Micrel part is rated for 3A. Oh, duh. I wasn't paying attention to the application. I do really like those parts though! > It's all good--my idea of a "voltage regulator IC" used to be a 741 > op amp feeding a darlington. :) Hey, there you go. ;) I'm a 2N3055 man, myself. You can arc weld with those things. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jan 18 21:01:02 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 19:01:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <3CD349E4-C86A-4918-AC6A-2E6370BFBF45@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Jan 18, 10 09:40:22 pm" Message-ID: <201001190301.o0J312gj010222@floodgap.com> > I'd give you TWO years, not ten. The problem is that AIX is twice > that many years behind Solaris in terms of manageability and lack-of- > cruftiness, with no reasonable OS alternatives for the godlike hardware. > > Wow, excellent troll job, Doc. ;) PKB. :-P (AIX fan since 3.2.5) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Had this been an actual emergency, we would have fled already. ------------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 18 21:06:36 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 22:06:36 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <201001190301.o0J312gj010222@floodgap.com> References: <201001190301.o0J312gj010222@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <3BCB64D8-A248-443B-A0D7-335F6DF31393@neurotica.com> On Jan 18, 2010, at 10:01 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I'd give you TWO years, not ten. The problem is that AIX is twice >> that many years behind Solaris in terms of manageability and lack-of- >> cruftiness, with no reasonable OS alternatives for the godlike >> hardware. >> >> Wow, excellent troll job, Doc. ;) > > PKB. :-P > > (AIX fan since 3.2.5) Hey, I run it regularly, and I like it a lot. It's just dog meat when compared to Solaris 10. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Jan 18 23:23:54 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:23:54 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <3CD349E4-C86A-4918-AC6A-2E6370BFBF45@neurotica.com> References: <4B54D013.5010304@vaxen.net> <3CD349E4-C86A-4918-AC6A-2E6370BFBF45@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201001190023.54376.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 18 January 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 18, 2010, at 4:18 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: > > As far as hardware goes, Fujitsu just might save SPARC, but if > > they do it will be in spite of Sun & Oracle. As stands today, in > > terms of raw processing power, scalability, power/thermal > > management, and sane OS development, SPARC is 10 years behind POWER > > with no clear means of closing the gap. > > I'd give you TWO years, not ten. The problem is that AIX is twice > that many years behind Solaris in terms of manageability and lack-of- > cruftiness, with no reasonable OS alternatives for the godlike > hardware. AIX Isn't uniX. Really, AIX is a legacy OS. IBM doesn't seem to be really putting any significant resources into advancing it. Oh, and there's a reason that IBM is putting so much effort into making Linux run on their hardware as well. Like it or not, Linux on POWER is one of the best ways that IBM can make POWER systems competitive with a higher- end x86 box running Linux that are taking over everywhere. (Though the hardware price is still a few times too high it seems..) Thanks to IBM, there's support for things like hotplug CPU and memory that will make it succeed in high-end markets. The one biggest thing that Solaris 10 has going for it is that it's so much more like Linux than earlier versions of Solaris were, and has less legacy UNIX baggage holding it back. ZFS is nice, but not unique to Solaris 10 anymore (though isn't available on Linux due to Sun's asinine licensing), and Domains... well, there's a number of ways to do that on Linux. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jan 18 23:52:29 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 21:52:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <201001190023.54376.pat@computer-refuge.org> from Patrick Finnegan at "Jan 19, 10 00:23:54 am" Message-ID: <201001190552.o0J5qT0B010170@floodgap.com> > > I'd give you TWO years, not ten. The problem is that AIX is twice > > that many years behind Solaris in terms of manageability and lack-of- > > cruftiness, with no reasonable OS alternatives for the godlike > > hardware. > > AIX Isn't uniX. Really, AIX is a legacy OS. IBM doesn't seem to be > really putting any significant resources into advancing it. When you say "advancing it," though, what kind of stuff would you like them to be doing? On server-grade OSes, at some point you cover all the basics. There's no dancing babies to be had in smit. Myself, I've decided I'll be getting a brand new IBM server next year for my home network. Natch, it'll be running AIX, not Linux, so I can use all the RS/6000 and Apple Network Server software and such I've accumulated over the years. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- She loves ya! ... now what? -- "True Lies" --------------------------------- From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Tue Jan 19 00:41:35 2010 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 23:41:35 -0700 Subject: Windows slowness, was: PDP 8/L... In-Reply-To: <4B5472D9.23390.177E157@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20100118133215.U25719@shell.lmi.net>, <85cokl$qte8b@fipsb04.cogeco.net> <4B5472D9.23390.177E157@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B55541F.90404@rogerwilco.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > The big problem that I see with Windows is that any program that's > installed insinuates itself throughout the system. It copies DLLs > into the system folder, makes changes to the registry and may even > spawn system processes. It's like crabgrass in your lawn. > > {snip} > When an application is uninstalled, it almost always leaves a pile of > detritus behind in the registry. > For those that do use Windows, for whatever reason, you might want to take a look at Symantec's Endpoint Virtualization Suite, particularly the Symantec Workspace Virtualization (SWV) component (formerly, Software Virtualization Solution, SVS). We all know about virtualizing systems, basically done at the OS level using VMWare and VirtualPC, but SWV works at the individual application level, and imposes only a <1% performance penalty, so this works on minimal Win2K or XP systems just fine. The SWV solution basically installs a file and registry redirector deep into the WinNT OS, thus allowing for the creation of independent, but integrated, sandboxes for each of your apps as you install them. The beauty of this is manifold, but a few key benefits are: 1) Installed apps and their offspring are completely 'trapped' inside their sandbox which can be instantly and 100% completely hidden or uninstalled; 2) Installed apps can be 'refreshed/reset' to their initial post-installed 'virgin' state without reinstallation; 3) Apps can be configured as desired, then exported to another box, or held in archive, making for a single-step and more-or-less instant future (re)installation, with all your configurations intact. Symantec of course wants to sell this as part of a whole enterprise management suite, but they do allow individuals like us to use this application virtualization component free of charge. Just go to: http://www.symantec.com/business/endpoint-virtualization-suite and download the trailware. You have to go through a site registration process, but it might be worth it to you to get SWV to play with. I'm not sure if the present download's installation key has an expiration or not ... I use keys from way back that are unlimited. In the spirit of full disclosure, years ago I had a hand in inventing and producing this technology at FSLogic which was later sold to Altiris, which later was acquired by Symantec. This is not a paid product promotion...I am no longer part of this project. This is just a heads-up about some no-cost tools to help maintain a 'virgin' Windows environment over a long period of time. Frankly, the reason I got involved with this project in the first place was as much to get the tools I needed to solve my own personal problems as it was a general commercial venture. So forgive me if this sounds like I'm shilling, I'm not. But I can't imagine working in Windows without it now that I do have it. -- Jared From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Jan 19 01:14:21 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 08:14:21 +0100 Subject: Computer speed over time [Was: Re: PDP-8/L value] In-Reply-To: References: <4B53942D.4030109@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20100119071421.GA2286@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 08:12:40PM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > > Because Thing B is faster, Thing A is no longer useful? > > That reminds me of a thought I have from time to time when confronted > > with statements like "The > > computer is already x years old, it' getting too slow and must be > > ~replaced" -- A computer doesn't > > get slower with time.....! > > Well, I hae no direct experience of this, but plenty of PC shops around > here have adverts in the windo of the form 'Windows getting too slow? > Have it re-installed here for only '. So perhaps at least one > common OS does get slower with time... > As usual I didn't want to get into this discussion but you've dragged me in :) Yester I was listening to the government owned radio and there was a man interviewed regarding a report of computer usage in schools. The otherwise wellinformed man said that Sweden is among the top countries when it comes to number of computers in schools, but that the computers are getting old, and I translate: "They are on average three years old, and as we know things get a bit crufty then" What load of *beep*, the advertisers mentioned above have really driven their message home! Cheers, Pontus. From chrise at pobox.com Mon Jan 18 16:00:24 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:00:24 -0600 Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: References: <20100117213139.GL9653@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20100118220024.GC9653@n0jcf.net> On Monday (01/18/2010 at 07:47PM +0000), Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Yes. There is a 15 ohm, 2W resistor from the input to the output of VR-1, > > a 7805 regulator. > > OK. Let's analyse that circuit. A quick look at a 7805 data sheet will > convince you it can only pull the output toiwards the input voltage, not > towards ground. So if the output is already higher than 5V (in this > case), the 7805 wioll do nothing. 15 ohm, 2W is what my original schematics say. It's entirely possible they changed this value over time. If need be, I can take the lid off the machine and see what is really in there... but I think we've converged on the basic idea. > Consider the resistor on its own. The OP said there was an input voltage > of 11.5V. SO there's 6.5V (11.5-5) to be dropped between the input and > output -- without the 7805, that means the resistor is droping 6.5V and > carrying 6.5V/15R = 0.4333A. > > If the load drwas less than 0.4333A, the output voltage will be higher > than 5V. If it drwas more, then part of that current will be carried by > the 7805, and the output will remain at 5V (without the 7805, of course, > the output votlage would be less than 5V in this case). Is it fair (as in rational, smart, non-stupid) to put multiple 7805 in parallel? Can't say I've ever seen that done. Only the more typical design of adding a pass transistor to carry more current. > Light bulbs are an approximatley constant-current device. A 12V car bulb > that draws 0.433A (at 12V) is a 5.2W bulb. If the load is significantly > less than that, then of course the output voltage will be too high. > > > > Danger Will Robinson. > > I could understand mentioning Heath Robinson here... Yes.. of course! That works too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danger,_Will_Robinson -- Chris Elmquist From iamvirtual at gmail.com Mon Jan 18 20:42:41 2010 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 19:42:41 -0700 Subject: Infoton Terminals Message-ID: <2645f9871001181842t4bb74005mdd81fba6d04e1956@mail.gmail.com> I need to repair both of the terminals. :-( I am hoping to find a technical reference and in particular, a schematic. I have not found any information about these terminals yet. The first step is to identify the particular model. The model/serial number is given as an Infoton 1200, but I have not seen any references to this particular model. I am a software guy by trade, but am minimally knowledgeable about hardware. I have access to an oscilloscope as well as a logic analyzer (unknown if either work!). Thanks. --barrym > B M writes: > >> I am looking for manuals on Infoton terminals. > >Are you looking to program for one or repair one? For the escape >sequences you can probably figure it out from termcap/terminfo >entries. >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 19 02:17:41 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 01:17:41 -0700 Subject: Infoton Terminals In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 18 Jan 2010 19:42:41 -0700. <2645f9871001181842t4bb74005mdd81fba6d04e1956@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <2645f9871001181842t4bb74005mdd81fba6d04e1956 at mail.gmail.com>, B M writes: > I need to repair both of the terminals. :-( It may be possible to repair the terminals without having a schematic. I would start by examining all the capacitors. Some might even go so far as to just blanket replace all the electrolytic capacitors on any vintage gear. I'm sure there are plenty of results in the archive if you search for capacitor and most will be talking about replacing faulty aging capacitors. It would also help us to help you if you could post some pictures of the circuit boards. We could help you diagnose the board to find out the source of the problem. Chances are its either failing capacitors or a failing power supply. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 19 02:33:25 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 03:33:25 -0500 Subject: Computer speed over time [Was: Re: PDP-8/L value] In-Reply-To: <20100119071421.GA2286@Update.UU.SE> References: <4B53942D.4030109@hachti.de> <20100119071421.GA2286@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Jan 19, 2010, at 2:14 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Yester I was listening to the government owned radio and there was > a man > interviewed regarding a report of computer usage in schools. The > otherwise wellinformed man said that Sweden is among the top countries > when it comes to number of computers in schools, but that the > computers > are getting old, and I translate: "They are on average three years > old, > and as we know things get a bit crufty then" > > What load of *beep*, the advertisers mentioned above have really > driven > their message home! Consumers in our society are extremely well-trained. I am regularly offered 2+GHz Pentium-4 machines because it has gotten around that I'm into "vintage computing". Scary. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 19 02:34:27 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 03:34:27 -0500 Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: <20100118220024.GC9653@n0jcf.net> References: <20100117213139.GL9653@n0jcf.net> <20100118220024.GC9653@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <30EA148C-0BF5-4F38-92BA-2D7BE86D2213@neurotica.com> On Jan 18, 2010, at 5:00 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > Is it fair (as in rational, smart, non-stupid) to put multiple 7805 in > parallel? Can't say I've ever seen that done. Only the more typical > design of adding a pass transistor to carry more current. What about balancing problems? They won't be identical from part to part.. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jan 19 02:38:50 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:38:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Computer speed over time [Was: Re: PDP-8/L value] In-Reply-To: References: <4B53942D.4030109@hachti.de> <20100119071421.GA2286@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jan 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 19, 2010, at 2:14 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> Yester I was listening to the government owned radio and there was a man >> interviewed regarding a report of computer usage in schools. The >> otherwise wellinformed man said that Sweden is among the top countries >> when it comes to number of computers in schools, but that the computers >> are getting old, and I translate: "They are on average three years old, >> and as we know things get a bit crufty then" >> >> What load of *beep*, the advertisers mentioned above have really driven >> their message home! > > Consumers in our society are extremely well-trained. > > I am regularly offered 2+GHz Pentium-4 machines because it has gotten around > that I'm into "vintage computing". Scary. What kind of people offer such machines? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Jan 19 04:18:33 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:18:33 +0100 (CET) Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: <4B54512C.23571.F45929@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B52F3E8.29456.6A4794@cclist.sydex.com>, , <20100118210440.ab2421d6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4B54512C.23571.F45929@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Jan 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Both "thyristor" and "SCR" are used in the U.S., but "SCR" is easier > to spell. Maybe for you, but not for me ;-) > "Thyristor" is more of a generic term that can include > TRIACs, DIACs, SIDACs, LASCRs, and all manner of other 4-layer > devices. No! A thyristor is a semiconductor version of a thyratron. A triac is something different and has *never* been called a thyristor even though it may be seen as two anti-parallel thyristors (which is not correct). Christian From ragooman at comcast.net Tue Jan 19 06:06:18 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 07:06:18 -0500 Subject: Computer speed over time [Was: Re: PDP-8/L value] In-Reply-To: References: <4B53942D.4030109@hachti.de> <20100119071421.GA2286@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4B55A03A.6070900@comcast.net> David Griffith wrote: > On Tue, 19 Jan 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On Jan 19, 2010, at 2:14 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >>> Yester I was listening to the government owned radio and there was a >>> man >>> interviewed regarding a report of computer usage in schools. The >>> otherwise wellinformed man said that Sweden is among the top countries >>> when it comes to number of computers in schools, First, I hate these comparisons of countries, it's always based on percentage, and not actual numbers. One small country can't be compared against a whole continent. >>> but that the computers >>> are getting old, and I translate: "They are on average three years old, >>> and as we know things get a bit crufty then" >>> >>> What load of *beep*, the advertisers mentioned above have really driven >>> their message home! >> >> Consumers in our society are extremely well-trained. brainwashed would be more accurate >> >> I am regularly offered 2+GHz Pentium-4 machines because it has gotten >> around that I'm into "vintage computing". Scary. > > What kind of people offer such machines? > Whatever the speed of the newest computer is over time, there's always one constant in this universe. And it's in this little 25yr old cartoon about computer engineers that I hang right above my desk which I saved from an old issue of EDN. "It's fast alright, the only thing that goes faster is my paycheck." :) =Dan http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From mike at brickfieldspark.org Tue Jan 19 06:44:36 2010 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 12:44:36 -0000 Subject: [personal] Re: Altair 680 power supply... References: <20100117213139.GL9653@n0jcf.net> <20100118220024.GC9653@n0jcf.net> <30EA148C-0BF5-4F38-92BA-2D7BE86D2213@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <000701ca9905$28f9dbb0$961ca8c0@mss.local> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 8:34 AM Subject: [personal] Re: Altair 680 power supply... > On Jan 18, 2010, at 5:00 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: >> Is it fair (as in rational, smart, non-stupid) to put multiple 7805 in >> parallel? Can't say I've ever seen that done. Only the more typical >> design of adding a pass transistor to carry more current. > > What about balancing problems? They won't be identical from part to > part.. What's the current ?, 78S05 will give 2A 7805 cannot be directly paralleled due to the small difference in regulation points part to part. You would need a small value series resistor per part to load share. Best regards, Mike Hatch soemtron.org > > -Dave >> > > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > > From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Jan 19 07:37:58 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 08:37:58 -0500 Subject: [personal] Re: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: <000701ca9905$28f9dbb0$961ca8c0@mss.local> References: <20100117213139.GL9653@n0jcf.net> <20100118220024.GC9653@n0jcf.net> <30EA148C-0BF5-4F38-92BA-2D7BE86D2213@neurotica.com> <000701ca9905$28f9dbb0$961ca8c0@mss.local> Message-ID: <4B55B5B6.8070007@verizon.net> Mike Hatch wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 8:34 AM > Subject: [personal] Re: Altair 680 power supply... > > >> On Jan 18, 2010, at 5:00 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: >>> Is it fair (as in rational, smart, non-stupid) to put multiple 7805 in >>> parallel? Can't say I've ever seen that done. Only the more typical >>> design of adding a pass transistor to carry more current. >> >> What about balancing problems? They won't be identical from part >> to part.. > > What's the current ?, 78S05 will give 2A > > 7805 cannot be directly paralleled due to the small difference in > regulation points part to part. You would need a small value series > resistor per part to load share. > > Best regards, > Mike Hatch > soemtron.org > You cannot parallel fixed regulators such as 7805. If you need more current either go to a device that can handle the current or use a regulator and transistor combination. I've used the rather low power 7805(to220 part) with an external pass transistor to get 5A, the design is straight out of National Semi (and others) apnotes. Allison > >> >> -Dave >>> >> >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire >> Port Charlotte, FL >> >> >> >> > > > From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jan 19 07:40:53 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 05:40:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Computer speed over time [Was: Re: PDP-8/L value] In-Reply-To: from David Griffith at "Jan 19, 10 00:38:50 am" Message-ID: <201001191340.o0JDerwm011344@floodgap.com> > > I am regularly offered 2+GHz Pentium-4 machines because it has gotten > > around that I'm into "vintage computing". Scary. > > What kind of people offer such machines? They mean well. I get this a lot also, and I politely refuse. The only PCs I keep are various 486s for DOS applications. Now that Apple is also x86, there are no more interesting home computers, just variations on a theme with the same basic internals. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If two wrongs don't make a right, try three. -- Laurence J. Peter ---------- From david_comley at yahoo.com Tue Jan 19 08:14:11 2010 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 06:14:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: TU58 Tape Images for 11/750 Message-ID: <402433.6691.qm@web30605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Has anyone imaged the VAX RDM Microdiagnostic tape (tape #1) for the 11/750 ? I'm approaching a point on my 11/750 bringup where it would be useful to run some of the RDM diagnostics. In the absence of the real thing an image for use with a TU58 emulator would be great to have. Thanks, -Dave From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jan 19 08:22:34 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 06:22:34 -0800 Subject: [personal] Re: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: <4B55B5B6.8070007@verizon.net> References: <20100117213139.GL9653@n0jcf.net>, <20100118220024.GC9653@n0jcf.net>, <30EA148C-0BF5-4F38-92BA-2D7BE86D2213@neurotica.com>, <000701ca9905$28f9dbb0$961ca8c0@mss.local>, <4B55B5B6.8070007@verizon.net> Message-ID: > Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 08:37:58 -0500 > From: ajp166 at verizon.net > To: > Subject: Re: [personal] Re: Altair 680 power supply... > > Mike Hatch wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 8:34 AM > > Subject: [personal] Re: Altair 680 power supply... > > > > > >> On Jan 18, 2010, at 5:00 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > >>> Is it fair (as in rational, smart, non-stupid) to put multiple 7805 in > >>> parallel? Can't say I've ever seen that done. Only the more typical > >>> design of adding a pass transistor to carry more current. > >> > >> What about balancing problems? They won't be identical from part > >> to part.. > > > > What's the current ?, 78S05 will give 2A > > > > 7805 cannot be directly paralleled due to the small difference in > > regulation points part to part. You would need a small value series > > resistor per part to load share. > > > > Best regards, > > Mike Hatch > > soemtron.org > > > > You cannot parallel fixed regulators such as 7805. If you need more > current either go > to a device that can handle the current or use a regulator and > transistor combination. > I've used the rather low power 7805(to220 part) with an external pass > transistor > to get 5A, the design is straight out of National Semi (and others) apnotes. > > Allison > > > >> > >> -Dave > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Dave McGuire > >> Port Charlotte, FL Hi While it is incorrect to parallel regulators, one can always split the power rails to balance the loads. I've seen this done on a S-100 memory board. In general, well heat sinked 7805s can be paralleled if the power drop in is not too large. They do have a built in current limiter that is designed to handle a continuous constant current without failure. It does require good bypass capacitors or the board can make a nice 1MHz oscillator. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390706/direct/01/ From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Jan 19 08:35:45 2010 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 09:35:45 -0500 Subject: RK05 exerciser manual; reading the schematic? In-Reply-To: <936e01ca97a2$d4b75040$0101a8c0@Alexandre> (sfid-20100117_133027_163772_DD9CDE75) References: <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> <4B4EB3F7.5020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4F30EF.7020906@compsys.to> <4B4F51DC.8080105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4FBA4F.3090009@compsys.to> <4B52BB78.5050603@hachti.de><4B534879.3080207@bitsavers.org> <4B534B6E.8080104@hachti.de> <936e01ca97a2$d4b75040$0101a8c0@Alexandre> (sfid-20100117_133027_163772_DD9CDE75) Message-ID: <75DC65D9-38B6-41DF-BF2C-1DF1E3A4EC33@heeltoe.com> On Jan 17, 2010, at 1:18 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> The maintenance manual for the RK05 drive exerciser is now >>> on line under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/disc/rk05 >> Oh, nice. Only missing the actual exerciser.... ;-) > > Just build one from the schematics ;o) I looked over the schematics, and I can't figure out how the signals on the cable from the RK05 to the exerciser line up with the signals from the real RK05. I made a little table of the signals in A & B side and I can't get them to line up with those on the exerciser. I must be missing something. All the other functions of the exerciser make sense, as does the internal writing. It's just the "bus" wiring which seems missing. The schematics show a 4 slow backplane with 2 sides for each slot. It shows a few connections between them, but nothing about all of the signals from the cable. I'd be happy to share my text file with anyone who wants it. If one were going to re-create one of those exercisers, it seems like some information is missing. Maybe someone has one? I suspect there is a lot of wire wrap from slot 1 to the other slots, but I can't see anything in the schematics to indicate what pins. I thought at a minimum it might be fun to do some schematic capture :-) -brad From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Jan 19 08:47:17 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 12:47:17 -0200 Subject: RK05 exerciser manual; reading the schematic? References: <4B4E8707.6060603@compsys.to> <4B4EB3F7.5020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4F30EF.7020906@compsys.to> <4B4F51DC.8080105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4FBA4F.3090009@compsys.to> <4B52BB78.5050603@hachti.de><4B534879.3080207@bitsavers.org><4B534B6E.8080104@hachti.de><936e01ca97a2$d4b75040$0101a8c0@Alexandre>(sfid-20100117_133027_163772_DD9CDE75) <75DC65D9-38B6-41DF-BF2C-1DF1E3A4EC33@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <0c3701ca9916$5375a6b0$04000100@Alexandre> > I made a little table of the signals in A & B side and I can't get them > to line up with those > on the exerciser. I must be missing something. All the other functions > of the exerciser > make sense, as does the internal writing. It's just the "bus" wiring > which seems missing. Understanding that I know nothing about DEC gear, I do believe that the exerciser is a passthrough device which disconnects only the signals needed to exercise the RK05. Maybe this is the missing point. From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jan 19 09:15:33 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 10:15:33 -0500 Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: References: <4B52F3E8.29456.6A4794@cclist.sydex.com> <4B54512C.23571.F45929@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201001191015.33298.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 19 January 2010, Christian Corti wrote: > On Mon, 18 Jan 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Both "thyristor" and "SCR" are used in the U.S., but "SCR" is > > easier to spell. > > Maybe for you, but not for me ;-) > > > "Thyristor" is more of a generic term that can include > > TRIACs, DIACs, SIDACs, LASCRs, and all manner of other 4-layer > > devices. > > No! A thyristor is a semiconductor version of a thyratron. A triac is > something different and has *never* been called a thyristor even > though it may be seen as two anti-parallel thyristors (which is not > correct). Yes! It appears that some people on this list call a Triac a thyristor, and it's in use elsewhere too: http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_7/6.html Sorry to spoil the fun, Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jan 19 09:25:07 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 10:25:07 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <201001190552.o0J5qT0B010170@floodgap.com> References: <201001190552.o0J5qT0B010170@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <201001191025.08007.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 19 January 2010, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > I'd give you TWO years, not ten. The problem is that AIX is > > > twice that many years behind Solaris in terms of manageability > > > and lack-of- cruftiness, with no reasonable OS alternatives for > > > the godlike hardware. > > > > AIX Isn't uniX. Really, AIX is a legacy OS. IBM doesn't seem to > > be really putting any significant resources into advancing it. > > When you say "advancing it," though, what kind of stuff would you > like them to be doing? Stuff like a dependency-based boot process, something like Linux vServer or KVM support (NOT LPARs, but equivalent to zVM or KVM/Xen on x86). I'd also add getting rid of the ODM, but I guess that's what makes AIX, AIX (and not UNIX). Oh, and can you shrink filesystems yet? > On server-grade OSes, at some point you cover all the basics. There's > no dancing babies to be had in smit. I'm not sure that smit would be necessary on any other UNIX, once you "know" the platform. On AIX it's pretty much required because of its strange commands, and dependency on the ODM. > Myself, I've decided I'll be getting a brand new IBM server next year > for my home network. Natch, it'll be running AIX, not Linux, so I can > use all the RS/6000 and Apple Network Server software and such I've > accumulated over the years. Mind you, I have IBM RS/6000 and pSeries hardware, and even have AIX installed on some of it, but I don't see why anyone would deploy a new server running AIX when they don't have existing applications for AIX to run on it. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jan 19 09:58:03 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 07:58:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <201001191025.08007.pat@computer-refuge.org> from Patrick Finnegan at "Jan 19, 10 10:25:07 am" Message-ID: <201001191558.o0JFw3Ln009066@floodgap.com> > > > AIX Isn't uniX. Really, AIX is a legacy OS. IBM doesn't seem to > > > be really putting any significant resources into advancing it. > > > > When you say "advancing it," though, what kind of stuff would you > > like them to be doing? > > Stuff like a dependency-based boot process, something like Linux vServer > or KVM support (NOT LPARs, but equivalent to zVM or KVM/Xen on x86). > I'd also add getting rid of the ODM, but I guess that's what makes AIX, > AIX (and not UNIX). Oh, and can you shrink filesystems yet? I don't know enough about KVM/Xen, so I can't comment on that (but while I'd like it as well myself, dependency based boot, if I understand what you're referring to, isn't so old or mature in Linux either). Also, you can shrink a JFS2 fs as of AIX 5.3. > > On server-grade OSes, at some point you cover all the basics. There's > > no dancing babies to be had in smit. > > I'm not sure that smit would be necessary on any other UNIX, once you > "know" the platform. On AIX it's pretty much required because of its > strange commands, and dependency on the ODM. That's not what I meant. At some point features become frivolous, hence, "no dancing babies in smit." I'm sure the ODM is very alien to people who aren't used to AIX, but Linux's oddities have only become the de facto standard oddities because Linux has numerical dominance. Apple is very strange with certain things about Mac OS X and Darwin, such as dyld, but no one calls that a "legacy OS," just unusual. > > Myself, I've decided I'll be getting a brand new IBM server next year > > for my home network. Natch, it'll be running AIX, not Linux, so I can > > use all the RS/6000 and Apple Network Server software and such I've > > accumulated over the years. > > Mind you, I have IBM RS/6000 and pSeries hardware, and even have AIX > installed on some of it, but I don't see why anyone would deploy a new > server running AIX when they don't have existing applications for AIX to > run on it. That's a fair criticism, but an unfortunate one. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- To err is human -- to forgive is not company policy. ----------------------- From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 19 10:02:14 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:02:14 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <4B548F48.9030502@hachti.de> References: <4B4F51DC.8080105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B4FBA4F.3090009@compsys.to> <4B52BB78.5050603@hachti.de> <4B545ACD.4080701@hachti.de> <4B548F48.9030502@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 11:41 AM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >>>>> But you cannot run OS/8 on the machine. >>>> >>>> No. ?I'm still trying to build up my first PDP-8/L to that level - and >>>> haven't succeeded yet. > > Hm, is there any sort of RK controller for the machine? There might well be, but I don't have one. It would have to be a Posibus disk interface to work. I do have RK05s on hand, but only one 16-sector pack (vs dozens of 12-sector packs). There were Posibus DF32s (DF32D), but mine (2 master/2 slave) are all Negibus. >>>> Not so... I have an 8K external box on an -8/L - total of 12K. ?Yes, >>>> it's 100% DEC. >> >> My expansion box has a pair of DF/IF switches - it would theoretically >> support 16K, but there's only room in the box for two memory sets. > > Interesting. I don't even have those expansion boxes.... IIRC, it's a flavor of BM08. I don't have prints for it, IIRC, just the box. > I asked for the amount of pdp8/L .-) 3 working to one extent or another, 1 that came to me as a partial unit (missing bezel, missing core, missing cards, broken support bar on the chassis, damaged backplane pins, etc). That last one was always a donor machine. > And would a PC04 do the job? There's the PC04 and the PC05 - IIRC, the PC04 _is_ the PDP-8-compatible version and the PC05 is for the PDP-11 (differences in what cards are loaded in the PC0x card slots, not with the mechanicals). The PC04 (plus the M705, M710, and M715) should be what you need for either the -8/i or the -8/L (no differences there). ISTR folks have been able to migrate a PC04 to a PC05 or perhaps it was the other way. I've had no need to do either one, but in principle, if you have all the right parts (I think one model needs punch driver cards (M040? K040?) and the other model does not), you can make a hybrid high-speed punch/reader that can connect to either controller with a minimum of changes. -ethan From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jan 19 10:02:12 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 10:02:12 -0600 Subject: Computer speed over time [Was: Re: PDP-8/L value] In-Reply-To: References: <4B53942D.4030109@hachti.de> <20100119071421.GA2286@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <201001191602.o0JG2SEo035466@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 02:38 AM 1/19/2010, David Griffith wrote: >>I am regularly offered 2+GHz Pentium-4 machines because it has gotten around that I'm into "vintage computing". Scary. > >What kind of people offer such machines? People who think the easiest route to a new OS and 2 or 4 gigs of RAM is a new computer, as opposed to paying premium prices for big sizes of last-gen and last-last-gen RAM. When the cost of upgrading and/or a repair is half the cost of a new computer, many choose the new computer. The old one heads for the dust bin. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jan 19 09:59:43 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 09:59:43 -0600 Subject: Windows slowness, was: PDP 8/L... In-Reply-To: <4B55541F.90404@rogerwilco.org> References: <20100118133215.U25719@shell.lmi.net> <85cokl$qte8b@fipsb04.cogeco.net> <4B5472D9.23390.177E157@cclist.sydex.com> <4B55541F.90404@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: <201001191602.o0JG2SnG035465@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 12:41 AM 1/19/2010, J Blaser wrote: >The SWV solution basically installs a file and registry redirector deep into the WinNT OS, thus allowing for the creation of independent, but integrated, sandboxes for each of your apps as you install them. The beauty of this is manifold, but a few key benefits are: 1) Installed apps and their offspring are completely 'trapped' inside their sandbox which can be instantly and 100% completely hidden or uninstalled; Microsoft has their own version of this for Windows Server 2008, for what it's worth. I find VMware much more interesting for recreating classic computing environments. Why aren't we exchanging appliances containing premade emulation environments? - John From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 19 10:31:09 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:31:09 -0500 Subject: Computer speed over time [Was: Re: PDP-8/L value] In-Reply-To: <201001191340.o0JDerwm011344@floodgap.com> References: <201001191340.o0JDerwm011344@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <5685D3E5-C24C-41EF-9570-F7EACF789DE5@neurotica.com> On Jan 19, 2010, at 8:40 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Now that Apple is also x86, there are no more interesting home > computers, > just variations on a theme with the same basic internals. True. But there are plenty of good ones still available used. Lacking that...a decent small Sun machine with a bunch of Sun Ray terminals makes for a good central computer for home use. They don't do streaming (steaming?) video all that well, but they will soon (they're getting better in that area). USB peripherals work...cameras, printers, thumb drives, some PDAs, etc. Sound works. They're tiny and silent. This makes them perfect for home applications. A decent 1U or 2U machine to act as a server can be had for a few hundred bucks at most. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 19 10:32:52 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:32:52 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <201001190552.o0J5qT0B010170@floodgap.com> References: <201001190552.o0J5qT0B010170@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <27DE455F-2E9E-46DF-AC13-AD6DC1DA14D4@neurotica.com> On Jan 19, 2010, at 12:52 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > On server-grade OSes, at some point you cover all the basics. There's > no dancing babies to be had in smit. But there's a little running guy! > Myself, I've decided I'll be getting a brand new IBM server next year > for my home network. Natch, it'll be running AIX, not Linux, so I can > use all the RS/6000 and Apple Network Server software and such I've > accumulated over the years. What kind of machine are you getting? Any idea? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Jan 19 10:33:12 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:33:12 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <201001191558.o0JFw3Ln009066@floodgap.com> References: <201001191558.o0JFw3Ln009066@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4B55DEC8.5080306@gmail.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Mind you, I have IBM RS/6000 and pSeries hardware, and even have AIX >> installed on some of it, but I don't see why anyone would deploy a new >> server running AIX when they don't have existing applications for AIX to >> run on it. > > That's a fair criticism, but an unfortunate one. Why do I continue to deploy AIX over Linux? Because Linux is a mess. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 19 10:36:52 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:36:52 -0500 Subject: Computer speed over time [Was: Re: PDP-8/L value] In-Reply-To: <201001191602.o0JG2SEo035466@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <4B53942D.4030109@hachti.de> <20100119071421.GA2286@Update.UU.SE> <201001191602.o0JG2SEo035466@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4B568558-DCC7-4625-81EA-1550873A2498@neurotica.com> On Jan 19, 2010, at 11:02 AM, John Foust wrote: >>> I am regularly offered 2+GHz Pentium-4 machines because it has >>> gotten around that I'm into "vintage computing". Scary. >> >> What kind of people offer such machines? > > People who think the easiest route to a new OS and 2 or 4 gigs of > RAM is > a new computer, as opposed to paying premium prices for big sizes of > last-gen and last-last-gen RAM. > > When the cost of upgrading and/or a repair is half the cost of a new > computer, many choose the new computer. The old one heads for the > dust bin. Oh, if it were only that sensible. In reality, it's nearly always a matter of: Them: "This machine is TWO YEARS OLD! It's ANCIENT! I need a new one!" Me: "Why do you need a new one?" Them: "This one is TWO YEARS OLD!" These people don't know what RAM is. The people who DO know what RAM is know that last-gen and last- last-gen RAM is a whole lot CHEAPER than bleeding-edge stuff, and know where to find it. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 19 10:38:58 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:38:58 -0500 Subject: Windows slowness, was: PDP 8/L... In-Reply-To: <201001191602.o0JG2SnG035465@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <20100118133215.U25719@shell.lmi.net> <85cokl$qte8b@fipsb04.cogeco.net> <4B5472D9.23390.177E157@cclist.sydex.com> <4B55541F.90404@rogerwilco.org> <201001191602.o0JG2SnG035465@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <25875027-6874-4BC1-9137-8DCD217E66E8@neurotica.com> On Jan 19, 2010, at 10:59 AM, John Foust wrote: > I find VMware much more interesting for recreating classic computing > environments. Why aren't we exchanging appliances containing premade > emulation environments? When you can send me an instance of OS/360 MVT running in the Solaris/UltraSPARC version of VMware, I'll be interested. (I run several Solaris virtual machines supporting Hercules running OS/390, z/OS and VM/ESA) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Jan 19 10:37:20 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:37:20 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <27DE455F-2E9E-46DF-AC13-AD6DC1DA14D4@neurotica.com> References: <201001190552.o0J5qT0B010170@floodgap.com> <27DE455F-2E9E-46DF-AC13-AD6DC1DA14D4@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B55DFC0.6070407@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >> On server-grade OSes, at some point you cover all the basics. There's >> no dancing babies to be had in smit. > > But there's a little running guy! And if you screw something up, you get him to faceplant! >> Myself, I've decided I'll be getting a brand new IBM server next year >> for my home network. Natch, it'll be running AIX, not Linux, so I can >> use all the RS/6000 and Apple Network Server software and such I've >> accumulated over the years. > > What kind of machine are you getting? Any idea? I think the entry level for these machines is about $2.5-3K. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 19 10:41:21 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:41:21 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <4B55DFC0.6070407@gmail.com> References: <201001190552.o0J5qT0B010170@floodgap.com> <27DE455F-2E9E-46DF-AC13-AD6DC1DA14D4@neurotica.com> <4B55DFC0.6070407@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jan 19, 2010, at 11:37 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> On server-grade OSes, at some point you cover all the basics. >>> There's >>> no dancing babies to be had in smit. >> >> But there's a little running guy! > > And if you screw something up, you get him to faceplant! *SPLAT!* :) >>> Myself, I've decided I'll be getting a brand new IBM server next >>> year >>> for my home network. Natch, it'll be running AIX, not Linux, so I >>> can >>> use all the RS/6000 and Apple Network Server software and such I've >>> accumulated over the years. >> >> What kind of machine are you getting? Any idea? > > I think the entry level for these machines is about $2.5-3K. What sort of machines? Are these POWER6? -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jan 19 10:43:52 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:43:52 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <4B55DEC8.5080306@gmail.com> References: <201001191558.o0JFw3Ln009066@floodgap.com> <4B55DEC8.5080306@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201001191143.52522.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 19 January 2010, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> Mind you, I have IBM RS/6000 and pSeries hardware, and even have > >> AIX installed on some of it, but I don't see why anyone would > >> deploy a new server running AIX when they don't have existing > >> applications for AIX to run on it. > > > > That's a fair criticism, but an unfortunate one. > > Why do I continue to deploy AIX over Linux? Because Linux is a mess. And the reason I continue to use Linux (Debian to be specific, I have issues with RHEL and SuSE, and would easily agree that they're "a mess" and poorly laid out), is that "I have the source", and I understand how it's laid out. Yes, I've found kernel bugs and even fixed one myself (though Dave Miller reworked / rewrote my patch). I've done the same with user-land stuff as well. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jan 19 10:46:15 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 08:46:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <4B55DFC0.6070407@gmail.com> from Sridhar Ayengar at "Jan 19, 10 11:37:20 am" Message-ID: <201001191646.o0JGkFre016262@floodgap.com> > > > On server-grade OSes, at some point you cover all the basics. There's > > > no dancing babies to be had in smit. > > > > But there's a little running guy! > > And if you screw something up, you get him to faceplant! I never screw up, so I never saw the faceplant. ;-) > > > Myself, I've decided I'll be getting a brand new IBM server next year > > > for my home network. Natch, it'll be running AIX, not Linux, so I can > > > use all the RS/6000 and Apple Network Server software and such I've > > > accumulated over the years. > > > > What kind of machine are you getting? Any idea? > > I think the entry level for these machines is about $2.5-3K. Probably a p520 Express. I'm thinking the 4.7GHz or thereabouts, and load it up with disks and RAM. It's "just a home server." -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The optimum committee has no members. -- Norman Augustine ------------------ From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jan 19 10:47:49 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:47:49 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: References: <201001190552.o0J5qT0B010170@floodgap.com> <4B55DFC0.6070407@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201001191147.50028.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 19 January 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 19, 2010, at 11:37 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >>> On server-grade OSes, at some point you cover all the basics. > >>> There's > >>> no dancing babies to be had in smit. > >> > >> But there's a little running guy! > > > > And if you screw something up, you get him to faceplant! > > *SPLAT!* :) > > >>> Myself, I've decided I'll be getting a brand new IBM server next > >>> year > >>> for my home network. Natch, it'll be running AIX, not Linux, so I > >>> can > >>> use all the RS/6000 and Apple Network Server software and such > >>> I've accumulated over the years. > >> > >> What kind of machine are you getting? Any idea? > > > > I think the entry level for these machines is about $2.5-3K. > > What sort of machines? Are these POWER6? > Just under $4k is the cheapest new POWER6 machine I've seen: http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/bladecenter/hardware/servers/js12/browse.html POWER5 can be had for less, but it annoys me that IBM hasn't stopped selling POWER5 yet. The fact that they keep selling them new isn't helping the used system price deflate enough so that I could justify getting a used one. Even a 1-way 1.5GHz p520 on eBay still goes for like $1500. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 19 10:50:57 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:50:57 -0500 Subject: Computer speed over time [Was: Re: PDP-8/L value] In-Reply-To: References: <4B53942D.4030109@hachti.de> <20100119071421.GA2286@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <1615DB1D-6F87-43BC-9DAA-756ABC023712@neurotica.com> On Jan 19, 2010, at 3:38 AM, David Griffith wrote: >>> Yester I was listening to the government owned radio and there >>> was a man >>> interviewed regarding a report of computer usage in schools. The >>> otherwise wellinformed man said that Sweden is among the top >>> countries >>> when it comes to number of computers in schools, but that the >>> computers >>> are getting old, and I translate: "They are on average three >>> years old, >>> and as we know things get a bit crufty then" >>> What load of *beep*, the advertisers mentioned above have really >>> driven >>> their message home! >> >> Consumers in our society are extremely well-trained. >> >> I am regularly offered 2+GHz Pentium-4 machines because it has >> gotten around that I'm into "vintage computing". Scary. > > What kind of people offer such machines? Ones who think two-year-old computers are "ancient" and somehow no longer able to compute. Just typical everyday consumers who are technically illiterate but insist on using technical tools about which they have zero knowledge. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From keithvz at verizon.net Tue Jan 19 10:50:19 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:50:19 -0500 Subject: Windows slowness, was: PDP 8/L... In-Reply-To: <4B55541F.90404@rogerwilco.org> References: , <20100118133215.U25719@shell.lmi.net>, <85cokl$qte8b@fipsb04.cogeco.net> <4B5472D9.23390.177E157@cclist.sydex.com> <4B55541F.90404@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: <4B55E2CB.4040701@verizon.net> J Blaser wrote: > Symantec of course wants to sell this as part of a whole enterprise > management suite, but they do allow individuals like us to use this > application virtualization component free of charge. Just go to: > http://www.symantec.com/business/endpoint-virtualization-suite > and download the trailware. You have to go through a site registration > process, but it might be worth it to you to get SWV to play with. I'm > not sure if the present download's installation key has an expiration or > not ... I use keys from way back that are unlimited. Thanks for pointing this out. This sounds pretty neat, I'll have to play with it to see if it's useful. :) Keith From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 19 11:41:34 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 09:41:34 -0800 Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: <201001191015.33298.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4B52F3E8.29456.6A4794@cclist.sydex.com>, , <201001191015.33298.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4B557E4E.31581.25BAC0@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Jan 2010 at 10:15, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Tuesday 19 January 2010, Christian Corti wrote: > > No! A thyristor is a semiconductor version of a thyratron. A triac > > is something different and has *never* been called a thyristor even > > though it may be seen as two anti-parallel thyristors (which is not > > correct). > > Yes! It appears that some people on this list call a Triac a > thyristor, and it's in use elsewhere too: > http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_7/6.html Must be a EE cultural thing. I think "A DIAC is a type of thyristor...", I should check my old GE databook and see what, if any, distinction is made. This reminds me of my introduction to Hoosier English as she is spoke outside of the Calumet Region. At my first meal at Purdue, I asked the guy tending the steam table for some of the "string beans". "We don't have string beans; those is green beans." Actually, he said "strang" rather than "string", and yes--he really did say "those is". I learned to adapt---and developed a taste for onion rangs and learned that "grits" has two syllables. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 19 11:42:44 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 09:42:44 -0800 Subject: Windows slowness, was: PDP 8/L... In-Reply-To: <4B55541F.90404@rogerwilco.org> References: , <4B5472D9.23390.177E157@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B55541F.90404@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: <4B557E94.4165.26CA0D@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Jan 2010 at 23:41, J Blaser wrote: > For those that do use Windows, for whatever reason, you might want to > take a look at Symantec's Endpoint Virtualization Suite, particularly > the Symantec Workspace Virtualization (SWV) component (formerly, > Software Virtualization Solution, SVS). We all know about > virtualizing systems, basically done at the OS level using VMWare and > VirtualPC, but SWV works at the individual application level, and > imposes only a <1% performance penalty, so this works on minimal Win2K > or XP systems just fine. Jared, thank you! I'll give it a try. --Chuck From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Jan 19 11:49:27 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:49:27 -0600 Subject: Windows slowness, was: PDP 8/L... In-Reply-To: <4B5472D9.23390.177E157@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20100118133215.U25719@shell.lmi.net> <85cokl$qte8b@fipsb04.cogeco.net> <4B5472D9.23390.177E157@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001190949j5149d8a8p32513668380cd379@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 4:40 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The big problem that I see with Windows is that any program that's > installed insinuates itself throughout the system. ?It copies DLLs > into the system folder, makes changes to the registry and may even > spawn system processes. ?It's like crabgrass in your lawn. > > I try to keep my Windows systems running with minimum slowdown by > putting applications, data and as much non-system related stuff on a > different partition when I install. ?It helps, but a system reload > usually entails re-installing everything again. ? Why the decision > was made against "compartmentalizing" the changes that applications > make to the system, is something I've never had satisfactory > explained. > > When an application is uninstalled, it almost always leaves a pile of > detritus behind in the registry. Has anyone had any experience with XPLite? They claim that you can install XP on much slower/older machines when you remove a lot of crud. There's a 98Lite also. brian From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Tue Jan 19 12:57:41 2010 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:57:41 -0700 Subject: TU58 Tape Images for 11/750 In-Reply-To: <402433.6691.qm@web30605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <402433.6691.qm@web30605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B5600A5.5020800@rogerwilco.org> David Comley wrote: > Has anyone imaged the VAX RDM Microdiagnostic tape (tape #1) for the 11/750 ? I'm Check my modest repository[1] at: http://www.jaredblaser.com/antique/vax11750/TU58_diag_images/ I seem to have Tape #1. Please note that I haven't tried these images yet. My 11/750's power supply is still under the weather, but slowly we're sorting it out. -- Jared [1] Thanks to Barry M. for these images! From ray at arachelian.com Tue Jan 19 13:05:28 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 14:05:28 -0500 Subject: Computer speed over time [Was: Re: PDP-8/L value] In-Reply-To: References: <4B53942D.4030109@hachti.de> <20100119071421.GA2286@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4B560278.4040609@arachelian.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > Consumers in our society are extremely well-trained. > > I am regularly offered 2+GHz Pentium-4 machines because it has > gotten around that I'm into "vintage computing". Scary. If they're free, send some my way. I'm in need of building a Solaris x86 box as a fileserver. :) From ray at arachelian.com Tue Jan 19 13:08:31 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 14:08:31 -0500 Subject: Computer speed over time [Was: Re: PDP-8/L value] In-Reply-To: <201001191340.o0JDerwm011344@floodgap.com> References: <201001191340.o0JDerwm011344@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4B56032F.2050207@arachelian.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Now that Apple is also x86, there are no more interesting home computers, > just variations on a theme with the same basic internals. > > Don't forget that they're also ARM (iphones, ipod's touch both run a crippled version of OS X). But speaking of which ARM is making quite the headway into netbooks and phones these days. It's as if the interesting machines moved from big iron, to minis, to micros, to phones/PDA's/ultra portable. There's a trend there too in terms of features. From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Jan 19 13:08:22 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 14:08:22 -0500 Subject: Altair 680 power supply... Message-ID: <01CA9910.DD7A80C0@MSE_D03> --------------Original Message: Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:18:33 +0100 (CET) From: Christian Corti Subject: Re: Altair 680 power supply... On Mon, 18 Jan 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Both "thyristor" and "SCR" are used in the U.S., but "SCR" is easier > to spell. Maybe for you, but not for me ;-) > "Thyristor" is more of a generic term that can include > TRIACs, DIACs, SIDACs, LASCRs, and all manner of other 4-layer > devices. No! A thyristor is a semiconductor version of a thyratron. A triac is something different and has *never* been called a thyristor even though it may be seen as two anti-parallel thyristors (which is not correct). Christian ----------------Reply: Never say *never*; some people would disagree; e.g.: http://www.littelfuse.com/data/en/Application_Notes/AN1001.pdf mike ************************************************************************************ From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jan 19 13:23:42 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:23:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Computer speed over time [Was: Re: PDP-8/L value] In-Reply-To: <5685D3E5-C24C-41EF-9570-F7EACF789DE5@neurotica.com> References: <201001191340.o0JDerwm011344@floodgap.com> <5685D3E5-C24C-41EF-9570-F7EACF789DE5@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jan 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 19, 2010, at 8:40 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Now that Apple is also x86, there are no more interesting home computers, >> just variations on a theme with the same basic internals. > > True. But there are plenty of good ones still available used. > > Lacking that...a decent small Sun machine with a bunch of Sun Ray terminals > makes for a good central computer for home use. They don't do streaming > (steaming?) video all that well, but they will soon (they're getting better > in that area). > > USB peripherals work...cameras, printers, thumb drives, some PDAs, etc. > Sound works. They're tiny and silent. This makes them perfect for home > applications. A decent 1U or 2U machine to act as a server can be had for a > few hundred bucks at most. What bugs me about those Sun Rays is that Sun nickles and dimes you to death on the licenses and such. I'm looking at a thin client solution for my employer and so far Sun Rays don't look very good from that perspective. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue Jan 19 13:25:38 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:25:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Computer speed over time [Was: Re: PDP-8/L value] In-Reply-To: <4B56032F.2050207@arachelian.com> References: <201001191340.o0JDerwm011344@floodgap.com> <4B56032F.2050207@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <897943.10748.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Easier to make inroads into these segments, since low power consumption is king, and software compatibility is mostly unnecessary cross-platform. ________________________________ From: Ray Arachelian To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Tue, January 19, 2010 1:08:31 PM Subject: Re: Computer speed over time [Was: Re: PDP-8/L value] Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Now that Apple is also x86, there are no more interesting home computers, > just variations on a theme with the same basic internals. > > Don't forget that they're also ARM (iphones, ipod's touch both run a crippled version of OS X). But speaking of which ARM is making quite the headway into netbooks and phones these days. It's as if the interesting machines moved from big iron, to minis, to micros, to phones/PDA's/ultra portable. There's a trend there too in terms of features. From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jan 19 13:37:27 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:37:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Computer speed over time [Was: Re: PDP-8/L value] In-Reply-To: <4B56032F.2050207@arachelian.com> from Ray Arachelian at "Jan 19, 10 02:08:31 pm" Message-ID: <201001191937.o0JJbRFM004062@floodgap.com> > > Now that Apple is also x86, there are no more interesting home computers, > > just variations on a theme with the same basic internals. > > Don't forget that they're also ARM (iphones, ipod's touch both run a > crippled version of OS X). That's true, although until Apple gets around this ridiculous walled garden policy with the iPhone OS I won't consider it a true inheritor. However, the only interesting computer I've seen in the last few years was the OLPC XO-1, and that was more from a social and design standpoint than technology (though I was delighted to note it uses OpenFirmware). > But speaking of which ARM is making quite the headway into netbooks and > phones these days. It's still nice to see some heterogeneity in mobiles, and of course PowerPC owns the current game console market, but computers are a lost cause except for niche systems like the new Amigas. It's a cold, bitter x86 world out there, and Intel wants Atom to do the same in the mobile space. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Logic is the art of going wrong with confidence. -- George Bernard Shaw ---- From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Jan 19 13:41:51 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 14:41:51 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: References: <201001190552.o0J5qT0B010170@floodgap.com> <27DE455F-2E9E-46DF-AC13-AD6DC1DA14D4@neurotica.com> <4B55DFC0.6070407@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B560AFF.2020806@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >>>> Myself, I've decided I'll be getting a brand new IBM server next year >>>> for my home network. Natch, it'll be running AIX, not Linux, so I can >>>> use all the RS/6000 and Apple Network Server software and such I've >>>> accumulated over the years. >>> >>> What kind of machine are you getting? Any idea? >> >> I think the entry level for these machines is about $2.5-3K. > > What sort of machines? Are these POWER6? I think for a straight rackmount/pedestal system, the entry point for POWER6 is about $5k before discounts. You can pull off a low-end (JS12 with dual-core 3.8GHz POWER6 and 4GB RAM) POWER6 blade for $3k. POWER5 is well within reach for $2.5k after discounts. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Jan 19 13:45:45 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 14:45:45 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <201001191143.52522.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201001191558.o0JFw3Ln009066@floodgap.com> <4B55DEC8.5080306@gmail.com> <201001191143.52522.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4B560BE9.8020702@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> Why do I continue to deploy AIX over Linux? Because Linux is a mess. > > And the reason I continue to use Linux (Debian to be specific, I have > issues with RHEL and SuSE, and would easily agree that they're "a mess" > and poorly laid out), is that "I have the source", and I understand how > it's laid out. At home, I mostly use NetBSD. I understand that some people don't like using any OS that isn't "ubiquitous", but it's a lot less of a mess than Linux, and I do have the source. I use NetBSD at work too, primarily because it's much easier to track the CERT advisories for it. Most Linux distributions have many per day. I'd have to document that I'm not actually using the default-installed software that's referenced in the advisories. The paperwork would be very time-consuming. > Yes, I've found kernel bugs and even fixed one myself (though Dave > Miller reworked / rewrote my patch). I've done the same with user-land > stuff as well. Some of my code is in the Linux kernel too, but I still consider it too messy for me. Peace... Sridhar From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jan 19 13:47:26 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:47:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <4B560AFF.2020806@gmail.com> from Sridhar Ayengar at "Jan 19, 10 02:41:51 pm" Message-ID: <201001191947.o0JJlQ1K017050@floodgap.com> > > > > > Myself, I've decided I'll be getting a brand new IBM server next year > > > > > for my home network. Natch, it'll be running AIX, not Linux, so I can > > > > > use all the RS/6000 and Apple Network Server software and such I've > > > > > accumulated over the years. > > > > > > > > What kind of machine are you getting? Any idea? > > > > > > I think the entry level for these machines is about $2.5-3K. > > > > What sort of machines? Are these POWER6? > > I think for a straight rackmount/pedestal system, the entry point for > POWER6 is about $5k before discounts. You can pull off a low-end (JS12 > with dual-core 3.8GHz POWER6 and 4GB RAM) POWER6 blade for $3k. POWER5 > is well within reach for $2.5k after discounts. I'm going POWER6. Heck, by next year I'll have gotten over 13 years of service out of this 200MHz 604e ANS 500. The hardware is getting flaky now and throws an MCHK about once a week, and AIX 4 is really showing its age, or I'd be still running it. A POWER6 should last even longer. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- MOVIE IDEA: E-mailsignaturebusters ----------------------------------------- From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Jan 19 13:47:44 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 14:47:44 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <201001191646.o0JGkFre016262@floodgap.com> References: <201001191646.o0JGkFre016262@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4B560C60.4030809@gmail.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>> On server-grade OSes, at some point you cover all the basics. There's >>>> no dancing babies to be had in smit. >>> >>> But there's a little running guy! >> >> And if you screw something up, you get him to faceplant! > > I never screw up, so I never saw the faceplant. ;-) Sometimes I get the faceplant because I intentionally make my instructions too general, and he fails on the parts I've not given Mr. Smitty file-system permission to frobnicate. >>>> Myself, I've decided I'll be getting a brand new IBM server next year >>>> for my home network. Natch, it'll be running AIX, not Linux, so I can >>>> use all the RS/6000 and Apple Network Server software and such I've >>>> accumulated over the years. >>> >>> What kind of machine are you getting? Any idea? >> >> I think the entry level for these machines is about $2.5-3K. > > Probably a p520 Express. I'm thinking the 4.7GHz or thereabouts, and load > it up with disks and RAM. It's "just a home server." That's about $5k before discounts. Maybe $4k after? Pretty good for the buck. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Jan 19 13:56:01 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 14:56:01 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <201001191947.o0JJlQ1K017050@floodgap.com> References: <201001191947.o0JJlQ1K017050@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4B560E51.4020808@gmail.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I'm going POWER6. Heck, by next year I'll have gotten over 13 years of > service out of this 200MHz 604e ANS 500. The hardware is getting flaky now > and throws an MCHK about once a week, and AIX 4 is really showing its age, > or I'd be still running it. A POWER6 should last even longer. One of the nice things about BladeCenter + PSSP + HACMP(/ES) is that there are simple ways to cheaply throw more processing power at many kinds of problems later when these machines are used and cheap. Peace... Sridhar From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jan 19 14:31:59 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 20:31:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <201001181439.o0IEdDQb039794@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <518690.10989.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Yeah, the 3D baby model is hidden in part of Dreamkey 3. Dreamkey is a browser Sega created for their Dreamcast games console. It is based on the Japanese browser, Dream Passport. There are two other 3D models hidden in it too, a girl and a ghost (obake). You see, the browser includes 3D routines which allow HTML-like commands to manipulate the 3D models (set and alter X,Y and Z coordinates, alter light-shading, select textures and run animation data stored on the browser disc). From my experience of using the browser and DreamArena (the Dreamcasts online network back around 10 years ago), they never used the 3D element. For anyone interested, I have a few pages where I altered the code and light sourcing. To fully appreciate them you would have to have the Dreamkey 3 disc in your Dreamcast (or emulated Dreamcast) and go to these pages: http://www.geocities.com/aliensrcooluk/public/dk3_babymodelduo.html http://www.geocities.com/aliensrcooluk/public/dk3_babymodelquad.html http://www.geocities.com/aliensrcooluk/public/dk3_babymodeltri.html http://www.geocities.com/aliensrcooluk/public/dk3_babymodelv2.html http://www.geocities.com/aliensrcooluk/public/dk3_girlmodel.html http://www.geocities.com/aliensrcooluk/public/dk3_girlmodelv2.html http://www.geocities.com/aliensrcooluk/public/dk3_obake_nomotion.html http://www.geocities.com/aliensrcooluk/public/dk3_obakemodel.html Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk PS. Yes, I know Geocities closed, but I have yet to get myself a domain to transfer it to. --- On Mon, 18/1/10, John Foust wrote: From: John Foust Subject: Re: PDP-8/L value To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Monday, 18 January, 2010, 14:28 Speaking of dancing animations and USA corporate cluster-stupidity, the original versions of the circa 1998 "dancing baby" animation were made with an add-on called Character Studio for 3D Studio Max from Kinetix, a branch of Autodesk. The 3D baby model was made years before by the company I was working for at the time, Viewpoint.? The animation was licensed by another mo-cap company, Biovision.? Viewpoint gave Kinetix the right to redistribute the baby model in exchange for a credit. The dancing baby was popularized by a recurring appearance as a hallucination of the main character of the television series "Ally McBeal". Autodesk PR promoted the fact it was produced in their software, but in fact many of the times it was on the air in the show, the animation was actually produced with a competing product, Lightwave. To top it all off, when Viewpoint intended to give-away a CD at a trade show containing a screen saver with a "dancing baby" animation, Autodesk slapped it with a cease-and-desist. - John From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Jan 19 14:50:09 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 15:50:09 -0500 Subject: Computer speed over time [Was: Re: PDP-8/L value] Message-ID: <01CA991F.155E06C0@MSE_D03> ------------------Original Message: Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:38:50 -0800 (PST) From: David Griffith Subject: Re: Computer speed over time [Was: Re: PDP-8/L value] On Tue, 19 Jan 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > Consumers in our society are extremely well-trained. > > I am regularly offered 2+GHz Pentium-4 machines because it has gotten around > that I'm into "vintage computing". Scary. What kind of people offer such machines? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu ------------------Reply: Well, those well-trained/brainwashed consumers 'upgrading' of course. And large users who find it cheaper to just replace all the existing boxes with preconfigured new ones instead of upgrading and cleaning up the (often messy) existing installed systems. How many would you like? I think I have a couple of dozen left after foisting another dozen or so off on various friends, relatives & casual acquaintances. m *************************************************************************************** From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Tue Jan 19 14:56:54 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 12:56:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Wired Article, On Jan 19, 1983 Apple unveils Lisa In-Reply-To: <01CA991F.155E06C0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <985684.38456.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://www.wired.com/thisdayintech/2010/01/0119apple-unveils-lisa From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 19 14:59:33 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 15:59:33 -0500 Subject: Computer speed over time [Was: Re: PDP-8/L value] In-Reply-To: <01CA991F.155E06C0@MSE_D03> References: <01CA991F.155E06C0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 3:50 PM, M H Stein wrote: >> I am regularly offered 2+GHz Pentium-4 machines because it has gotten around >> that I'm into "vintage computing". ?Scary. > > What kind of people offer such machines? We are starting to get those donated to FreeGeek Columbus. They aren't the most common machines, but they started to appear in the donation stream a few months ago. They are all DDR1 boxes, and tend to have 512MB in them, though. Upgrading the memory will cost more than the asking price for the box, for this era of equipment. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 19 14:30:28 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 20:30:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: <4B54F6C9.2020803@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jan 19, 10 00:03:21 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > Off-topic, but modern consumer electronics (particularly the cheap 'own > > brands' tends to be assembled in thin sheet-metal cases with edges that > > will give you a nasty-ish cut if you catch them. > > I've stopped using the really cheap PC cases. The Antec 300 I'm using I wasn;'t just thinking of comptuers. Things like VCRs, DVD players, etc, have nasty sheet metacl covers now that draw blood. > now seems to have had the metal edges rolled over at least once, which > pretty much leaves it with smooth rounded edges that have the cutting > ability of a wet paper towel. > > > Modern components shouldn't get hot enough to burn you :-). > > Exceptions: power transistors (esp. BJTs). SCRs. Big diodes. Well, just > about anything that's handling more than about ~10W of power really... Hmm.. I prefer it if even those are cool enough to touch without a nasty burn. I always feel that too-hot == unreliable. A diode should be dropping 0.7V or so. For that to dissipate 10W, it must be carrying about 14A. That's not small. Ditto for thyristors. > > That said an un-heatsinked 7805 running at 1A output with a 12V input > will run surprisingly hot, too, and that's only 7W. I've seen 7805s hit True. The only ime I run a 7805 without a heatsink is when a 78L05 would have done :-), but I'm using the larger-cuirrent version becasue I had one in the junk box. > > Glassfets are another matter. > > Mmm, vacuum tubes. "After turning off main power, wait 15 minutes for > valves to cool." That sounds about right. Big output tetrods/pentodes get very hot... > > > And an IC that has developped internal shorts can get hot > > enough to burn you, some DRAMs were prone to this. > > A few old 1k*4 SRAMs did this too. 2114 anyone? > Those things were nasty little buggers. If it wasn't a bad bit, it was a > dead bitline, address line or just a dead chip shorting the power bus. > Must be one of the least reliable SRAM chips ever made. Oh, you've noticed that too. I don't like shotgu debugging as you know, but if I see 2114s in a device and have unexplained problems, I often replace them with known-good ones just to see. And most of the time that cures the problems. My HP9836CU would randomly fail to detect the intenral FDC card during the power-on tests. It turned out (and this is not in any manual that I can find) that the test for the presense of an FDC was to read and write the sector buffer RAM on the board. And this RAM was a pair of 2114s (it could also be 2112s, in the former case only 1/4 of each chip is used). Guess what... > > > Yes, I was thinking of bruns from the soldering iron, or something heated > > by it Most of the time it's when I am soldering a piece of wire to a > > large-ish metal object (pin of a 4mm plug) and I don't let it cool for > > long enough before taking it out of the vice. > > I seem to do that with startling regularity... Somehow the concept of > objects touched by soldering irons also being hot hasn't quite sunk in yet. It's suprising how long a metla pin will stay hot after soldering. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 19 14:05:37 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 20:05:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: <4B546962.12462.152EB1F@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 18, 10 02:00:02 pm Message-ID: > > On 18 Jan 2010 at 21:21, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Similarly I learnt the German symbols for logic gates (the AND gate > > looks like what you'd expect, the OR gate looks like an AND gate -- it > > has a straight back -- but the input lines are continuted across the > > symbol to the curved face), but now use the normal US sysmbols when I'm > > drawing schematis, since everybody else does. I can still read a > > scehamtic using the German symbols, of > > course (nad often have to ;-)). > > I'dve thought that the EU would have changed over to those dreadful > IEC symbols by now (BS/EU EN 60617-12:1999). I stumble through those Oh, officially we probably have. But I've not met anyone who uses them. > with my nose held. It's like reading a musical score that's been > reduced to text with note names and durations. There's no visual > "flow". Oh, and don't get me started on the related subject of schematics that have not been drawn by electronic engineers. A good schematic should be instantly recognisable for what it is. Not a 'pretty' arrangement of symbols on the page. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 19 14:09:37 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 20:09:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: <20100118220024.GC9653@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Jan 18, 10 04:00:24 pm Message-ID: > Is it fair (as in rational, smart, non-stupid) to put multiple 7805 in > parallel? Can't say I've ever seen that done. Only the more typical > design of adding a pass transistor to carry more current. It's a bad idea to parallel regualtors like that, since the output votlages will not be indentical and one will supply the lion's share of the current (and will try to feed current back into the others). What you can do is have separae regualtors for different bits of the circuit (the fact that all the 5V rails are not _quite_ the same won't matter). The S100 bus did this, of course (regulators on each card, the 5V line was not bussed between cards). I believe very early versions of the BBC Micro PSU (the linear one that 'took the paint of tables' because it ran so hot) used 3 7805s with 3 feed wires to the logic board. On later boards, designed for use with the SMPSU, the 5V terminals were all linked, I beliueve they may not have been on very early boards. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 19 14:43:00 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 20:43:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Jan 18, 10 09:52:16 pm Message-ID: > > It's all good--my idea of a "voltage regulator IC" used to be a 741 > > op amp feeding a darlington. :) Of course the 723 is a referece supply and an op-amp (which you can use to feed a darlington) ;-) > > Hey, there you go. ;) I'm a 2N3055 man, myself. You can arc weld > with those things. Ah yes. Good solid transistors. The PSU board of the plotter I am currently repairing has 5 of them on it. One for the -15V logic supply regulaotr, and 2 for each of the motor drivers (I would have expected an NPN/PNP pair here, but I guess there wasn't a suitable PNP transsitor available in 1959) IIRC the 'modern' 2N3055 is actually a 2N3055H, you can't get the original one any more. It doesn't matter for most applications, though. Either Bob Pease or Jim Williams makes a comment in one of their books. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 19 14:16:53 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 20:16:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: <06e601ca988f$c0699290$04000100@Alexandre> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Jan 18, 10 08:42:31 pm Message-ID: > > > Incidentally, your comment is also true of amny other things. A 50Mhz > > 'scope made 40 years ago is _still_ a 50MHz 'scope. And I for one would > > As a 2GHz pentium 4 core 2 duo will always be. There is something people > never put on the equation: The windows OS is more and more bloated on each > revision, but also has more features. I'll not discuss the usefullness of > these features, but it has more and more indeed. There is, however, no requirement to keep on upgrading the OS and applications AFAIK. If the machine was fast enough to do your word processing, spreadsheets, whatever when it was new, it should be the same speed today, if you run the same software. The problem comes, of coruse, when you want to interchange files with other people who have upgraded. There is no backwards compatibility. That's another reason I keep well away from proprietary software... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 19 14:46:25 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 20:46:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Computer speed over time [Was: Re: PDP-8/L value] In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Jan 19, 10 03:33:25 am Message-ID: > I am regularly offered 2+GHz Pentium-4 machines because it has > gotten around that I'm into "vintage computing". Scary. I have to explain quite often that a 'vintage computer' does not mean a 486-based PC. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 19 14:59:09 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 20:59:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jan 19, 10 11:02:14 am Message-ID: > > And would a PC04 do the job? > > There's the PC04 and the PC05 - IIRC, the PC04 _is_ the > PDP-8-compatible version and the PC05 is for the PDP-11 (differences > in what cards are loaded in the PC0x card slots, not with the > mechanicals). The PC04 (plus the M705, M710, and M715) should be what > you need for either the -8/i or the -8/L (no differences there). I beleive that's correct. The PC05 has some logic cards in the same chassis ans the mechanism (the driver cards are the same in both versions from what I can tell). Theres the minor issue of the no/off swtich for the punch motor (fitted on the PC04, not on thr PC05 btu that's easy to change) > > ISTR folks have been able to migrate a PC04 to a PC05 or perhaps it I've turned a PC05 into a PC04 (to link to a PC8e card in my PDP8/e). It was mostly a matter of re-wrapping the backplane in the PC05 chassis -- I think I needed one flip-chip card to provide a NAND gate (but you could hardware a '00 in the wirign if you had to. > was the other way. I've had no need to do either one, but in > principle, if you have all the right parts (I think one model needs > punch driver cards (M040? K040?) and the other model does not), you > can make a hybrid high-speed punch/reader that can connect to either > controller with a minimum of changes. I know I pulled the control logic cards and added them to the box of spare fli=chips. I think I left most, if not all, of the wiring undisturbed (there are enough spare slots on the backplane blocks to be able ot plug the cables and NAND gate flip-chip into unwired slots, so I could leave th wirign to the original slots unchanged). So going back mioght bust be a matter of pulling the NAD gate card, moving the cable connecotrs, and plugging the control cards back in. -tony From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Jan 19 15:10:35 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 16:10:35 -0500 Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B561FCB.3040200@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> Is it fair (as in rational, smart, non-stupid) to put multiple 7805 in >> parallel? Can't say I've ever seen that done. Only the more typical >> design of adding a pass transistor to carry more current. > > It's a bad idea to parallel regualtors like that, since the output > votlages will not be indentical and one will supply the lion's share of > the current (and will try to feed current back into the others). Couldn't you get around at least part of the problem with isolation diodes? Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Jan 19 15:11:18 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 16:11:18 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/L value In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B561FF6.80801@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> >>> Incidentally, your comment is also true of amny other things. A 50Mhz >>> 'scope made 40 years ago is _still_ a 50MHz 'scope. And I for one would >> >> As a 2GHz pentium 4 core 2 duo will always be. There is something people >> never put on the equation: The windows OS is more and more bloated on each >> revision, but also has more features. I'll not discuss the usefullness of >> these features, but it has more and more indeed. > > There is, however, no requirement to keep on upgrading the OS and > applications AFAIK. If the machine was fast enough to do your word > processing, spreadsheets, whatever when it was new, it should be the same > speed today, if you run the same software. > > The problem comes, of coruse, when you want to interchange files with > other people who have upgraded. There is no backwards compatibility. > That's another reason I keep well away from proprietary software... Or if you find a newfangled feature you want to use... It's rare, but it happens. Peace... Sridhar From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Jan 19 15:18:36 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 13:18:36 -0800 Subject: Wired Article, On Jan 19, 1983 Apple unveils Lisa In-Reply-To: <985684.38456.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <01CA991F.155E06C0@MSE_D03>, <985684.38456.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Does this guy not know how to spell "Alto"? ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Christian Liendo [christian_liendo at yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 12:56 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Wired Article, On Jan 19, 1983 Apple unveils Lisa http://www.wired.com/thisdayintech/2010/01/0119apple-unveils-lisa From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 19 15:27:53 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 13:27:53 -0800 Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: <4B561FCB.3040200@gmail.com> References: , <4B561FCB.3040200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B55B359.31083.F4ED1C@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Jan 2010 at 16:10, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Couldn't you get around at least part of the problem with isolation > diodes? No sir. Consider that the output of one 7805 might be 5.05 volts and of the other, 4.95 (manufacturing tolerances being what they are, that's not unreasonable). The bulk of the current will be conducted by the 7805 with the higher voltage output. One might put a resistor in series with the output of each one to balance the load a bit, but that would play hob with the voltage regulation. (On the other hand, this technique is used when paralleling rectifiers to balance the current.) But, as someone mentioned, the bigger problem is that linear regulators tend to dissipate a lot of heat, especially when the input voltage is substantially higher than the otuput voltage. Better to use a buck regulator in this application, methinks, and save some watts. --Chuck From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Jan 19 15:39:09 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 13:39:09 -0800 Subject: Wired Article, On Jan 19, 1983 Apple unveils Lisa In-Reply-To: References: <01CA991F.155E06C0@MSE_D03>, <985684.38456.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >> From:Christian Liendo >> Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 12:56 PM >> Subject: Wired Article, On Jan 19, 1983 Apple unveils Lisa >> http://www.wired.com/thisdayintech/2010/01/0119apple-unveils-lisa > From: Ian King > Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 1:19 PM > Does this guy not know how to spell "Alto"? He is, after all, writing for *_WiReD_*. Tesler's comment regarding Smalltalk vs. the Star hardware argues in favor of an Alto influence, but the team probably saw both the Star and the Alto at PARC. From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Jan 19 15:39:49 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 16:39:49 -0500 Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: <4B55B359.31083.F4ED1C@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B561FCB.3040200@gmail.com> <4B55B359.31083.F4ED1C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B5626A5.9030506@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Couldn't you get around at least part of the problem with isolation >> diodes? > > No sir. Consider that the output of one 7805 might be 5.05 volts and > of the other, 4.95 (manufacturing tolerances being what they are, > that's not unreasonable). The bulk of the current will be conducted > by the 7805 with the higher voltage output. One might put a resistor > in series with the output of each one to balance the load a bit, but > that would play hob with the voltage regulation. (On the other hand, > this technique is used when paralleling rectifiers to balance the > current.) But I thought part of the problem was that the regulator with the slightly higher output voltage would drive the voltage difference against the output of the lower-voltage regulator? Wouldn't isolation diodes prevent that from happening? Peace... Sridhar From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jan 19 15:44:54 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 14:44:54 -0700 Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: <4B5626A5.9030506@gmail.com> References: , <4B561FCB.3040200@gmail.com> <4B55B359.31083.F4ED1C@cclist.sydex.com> <4B5626A5.9030506@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B5627D6.6030509@jetnet.ab.ca> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> Couldn't you get around at least part of the problem with isolation >>> diodes? >> >> No sir. Consider that the output of one 7805 might be 5.05 volts and >> of the other, 4.95 (manufacturing tolerances being what they are, >> that's not unreasonable). The bulk of the current will be conducted >> by the 7805 with the higher voltage output. One might put a resistor >> in series with the output of each one to balance the load a bit, but >> that would play hob with the voltage regulation. (On the other hand, >> this technique is used when paralleling rectifiers to balance the >> current.) > > But I thought part of the problem was that the regulator with the > slightly higher output voltage would drive the voltage difference > against the output of the lower-voltage regulator? Wouldn't isolation > diodes prevent that from happening? How about plan B -- use lower power chips if possible? Plan C ... use Alien Technology. > Peace... Sridhar Ben. PS. I would like to remove the power resistor ... ripple on the 5+. From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Jan 19 15:45:27 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 15:45:27 -0600 Subject: Wired Article, On Jan 19, 1983 Apple unveils Lisa In-Reply-To: References: <01CA991F.155E06C0@MSE_D03> <985684.38456.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001191345t48636cf6r23552f3385f882d8@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 3:39 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >>> From:Christian Liendo >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 12:56 PM >>> Subject: Wired Article, On Jan 19, 1983 Apple unveils Lisa > >>> http://www.wired.com/thisdayintech/2010/01/0119apple-unveils-lisa > >> From: Ian King >> Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 1:19 PM > >> Does this guy not know how to spell "Alto"? > > He is, after all, writing for *_WiReD_*. > > Tesler's comment regarding Smalltalk vs. the Star hardware argues in favor of > an Alto influence, but the team probably saw both the Star and the Alto at > PARC. I've always heard the story told the way the article reads... that apple stole from xerox and microsoft stole from apple, who sued microsoft, etc. I'm always left wondering why xerox didn't stomp on both of them. brian From sethm at loomcom.com Tue Jan 19 15:47:59 2010 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 21:47:59 +0000 Subject: Computer speed over time [Was: Re: PDP-8/L value] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100119214759.GA13569@mail.loomcom.com> * On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 08:46:25PM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > I am regularly offered 2+GHz Pentium-4 machines because it has > > gotten around that I'm into "vintage computing". Scary. > > I have to explain quite often that a 'vintage computer' does not mean a > 486-based PC. Maybe, but maybe not. The 486 is 21 years old now, and not as easy to find as one might expect. For comparison, when I first started collecting vintage computers, the pdp-8/e was 22 years old. > -tony -Seth From halarewich at gmail.com Tue Jan 19 16:04:39 2010 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 14:04:39 -0800 Subject: Wired Article, On Jan 19, 1983 Apple unveils Lisa In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381001191345t48636cf6r23552f3385f882d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <01CA991F.155E06C0@MSE_D03> <985684.38456.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <6dbe3c381001191345t48636cf6r23552f3385f882d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6d6501091001191404n6599c400y568e9fb5357ea300@mail.gmail.com> >From the comments section of the article Xerox brass had no concept of what they had on their hands. PARC was an enclave of some brilliant engineers who, among other things, came up with the original concept of the GIU - though it was apparently fairly rudimentary. Xerox management lacked the vision to run with it. By the time they figured out what they had, it was too late. Apple and Wintel had already defined the personal computer Read More http://www.wired.com/thisdayintech/2010/01/0119apple-unveils-lisa#ixzz0d69qfT5G On 1/19/10, Brian Lanning wrote: > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 3:39 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > >>> From:Christian Liendo > >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 12:56 PM > >>> Subject: Wired Article, On Jan 19, 1983 Apple unveils Lisa > > > >>> http://www.wired.com/thisdayintech/2010/01/0119apple-unveils-lisa > > > >> From: Ian King > >> Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 1:19 PM > > > >> Does this guy not know how to spell "Alto"? > > > > He is, after all, writing for *_WiReD_*. > > > > Tesler's comment regarding Smalltalk vs. the Star hardware argues in > favor of > > an Alto influence, but the team probably saw both the Star and the Alto > at > > PARC. > > I've always heard the story told the way the article reads... that > apple stole from xerox and microsoft stole from apple, who sued > microsoft, etc. I'm always left wondering why xerox didn't stomp on > both of them. > > brian > From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Jan 19 16:05:14 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 14:05:14 -0800 Subject: Wired Article, On Jan 19, 1983 Apple unveils Lisa In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381001191345t48636cf6r23552f3385f882d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <01CA991F.155E06C0@MSE_D03> <985684.38456.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <6dbe3c381001191345t48636cf6r23552f3385f882d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > From:Brian Lanning > Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 1:45 PM > On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 3:39 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >>>> From:Christian Liendo >>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 12:56 PM >>>> Subject: Wired Article, On Jan 19, 1983 Apple unveils Lisa >>>> http://www.wired.com/thisdayintech/2010/01/0119apple-unveils-lisa >>> From: Ian King >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 1:19 PM >>> Does this guy not know how to spell "Alto"? >> He is, after all, writing for *_WiReD_*. >> Tesler's comment regarding Smalltalk vs. the Star hardware argues in favor of >> an Alto influence, but the team probably saw both the Star and the Alto at >> PARC. > I've always heard the story told the way the article reads... that > apple stole from xerox and microsoft stole from apple, who sued > microsoft, etc. I'm always left wondering why xerox didn't stomp on > both of them. Oh, none of that is in dispute. The question implicit in Ian's comment on the article was whether the writer left out the Alto from his story or not. (I think he did, but that he doesn't even know that he did.) One thing that I did notice the writer got completely wrong and forgot to comment on: The version of Windows that caused the suit was *not* v1, but v3. Windows v1 was a tiling text interface on top of MS-DOS, and looked not the least like anything from Apple or Xerox. From g at kurico.com Tue Jan 19 16:12:06 2010 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 16:12:06 -0600 Subject: Wired Article, On Jan 19, 1983 Apple unveils Lisa In-Reply-To: References: <01CA991F.155E06C0@MSE_D03> <985684.38456.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <6dbe3c381001191345t48636cf6r23552f3385f882d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B562E36.60903@kurico.com> Rich Alderson wrote: > One thing that I did notice the writer got completely wrong and forgot to > comment on: The version of Windows that caused the suit was *not* v1, but > v3. Windows v1 was a tiling text interface on top of MS-DOS, and looked not > the least like anything from Apple or Xerox. > Actually Windows was never character based (in the same sense as say TopView) in any version, though v1 did only support tiled windows. I believe it was v2 that introduced overlapping windows and thus the Apple lawsuit. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jan 19 16:20:45 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 16:20:45 -0600 Subject: Computer speed over time [Was: Re: PDP-8/L value] In-Reply-To: <01CA991F.155E06C0@MSE_D03> References: <01CA991F.155E06C0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <4B56303D.4000308@gmail.com> M H Stein wrote: > ------------------Original Message: > Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:38:50 -0800 (PST) > From: David Griffith > Subject: Re: Computer speed over time [Was: Re: PDP-8/L value] > > On Tue, 19 Jan 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> Consumers in our society are extremely well-trained. >> >> I am regularly offered 2+GHz Pentium-4 machines because it has gotten around >> that I'm into "vintage computing". Scary. > > What kind of people offer such machines? I've seen 'em before on Freecycle lists (not my local one, sadly!) and on things like university surplus lists. Oh, I did a comparison a while ago between a relatively-modern PC and an early-80s 8-bitter in terms of the time taken to boot the system, load some wordprocessing software (from tape in the 8-bitter's case, floppy would have been way faster), and start typing a document. The relatively-modern PC came out around 2% faster, which didn't seem like much for 25 years of progress. cheers Jules From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jan 19 16:48:40 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 14:48:40 -0800 Subject: Altair 680 power supply... References: , <4B561FCB.3040200@gmail.com> <4B55B359.31083.F4ED1C@cclist.sydex.com> <4B5626A5.9030506@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B5636C9.A27C2B18@cs.ubc.ca> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Couldn't you get around at least part of the problem with isolation > >> diodes? > > > > No sir. Consider that the output of one 7805 might be 5.05 volts and > > of the other, 4.95 (manufacturing tolerances being what they are, > > that's not unreasonable). The bulk of the current will be conducted > > by the 7805 with the higher voltage output. One might put a resistor > > in series with the output of each one to balance the load a bit, but > > that would play hob with the voltage regulation. (On the other hand, > > this technique is used when paralleling rectifiers to balance the > > current.) > > But I thought part of the problem was that the regulator with the > slightly higher output voltage would drive the voltage difference > against the output of the lower-voltage regulator? Wouldn't isolation > diodes prevent that from happening? Diodes will effectively leave you with only one regulator supplying the current, as only one diode will switch on. Using Chuck's numbers as an example, the one reg supplies 5.05V into one diode anode, the output at the cathode is 5.05-0.7=4.35V. The diode from the other reg (cathodes connected together) now has 4.95-4.35=0.6V dropped across it, which isn't enough to even send it into conduction, that reg supplies nothing to the load (..until the first reg over-temps and burns up or shuts down). If one looks at high-current regulators they have multiple pass transistors connected 'almost' in parallel, the catch is a small resistor is placed in the emitter lead of each so the CE & BE circuits take on some linear characteristics and distributes the current between the transistors. The regulation sense point is then placed after all the resistors join together for the output, so the resistors are inside the feedback loop and hence accounted for in the regulation. From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jan 19 16:52:02 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 16:52:02 -0600 Subject: Computer speed over time [Was: Re: PDP-8/L value] In-Reply-To: References: <06e601ca988f$c0699290$04000100@Alexandre> Message-ID: <201001192253.o0JMrrlb062948@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 10:36 AM 1/19/2010, Dave McGuire wrote: >The people who DO know what RAM is know that last-gen and last- last-gen RAM is a whole lot CHEAPER than bleeding-edge stuff, and know where to find it. You're saying that old PC133, PC2100, PC2700 RAM is cheaper in equivalent size/stick than today's cheapest RAM? What's your price on a new 1 gig PC133, PC2100, PC2700 stick? At 02:16 PM 1/19/2010, Tony Duell wrote: >There is, however, no requirement to keep on upgrading the OS and >applications AFAIK. If the machine was fast enough to do your word >processing, spreadsheets, whatever when it was new, it should be the same >speed today, if you run the same software. But that's rarely the case. People like to *use* their computer. They buy or download new software for it. They buy new gizmos that run on startup. Malware gets worse, requiring new countermeasures. Then Microsoft sends them patches. This seems like a tautology to me: "If they never change their computer, it'll stay the same." If my desires never changed, I'd still be drinking chocolate milk with my lunch. >The problem comes, of course, when you want to interchange files with >other people who have upgraded. There is no backwards compatibility. >That's another reason I keep well away from proprietary software... Office 2007 easily saves in older formats. - John From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jan 19 17:37:07 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 15:37:07 -0800 Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: <4B5626A5.9030506@gmail.com> References: , <4B561FCB.3040200@gmail.com>, <4B55B359.31083.F4ED1C@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B5626A5.9030506@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 16:39:49 -0500 > From: ploopster at gmail.com > To: > Subject: Re: Altair 680 power supply... > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Couldn't you get around at least part of the problem with isolation > >> diodes? > > > > No sir. Consider that the output of one 7805 might be 5.05 volts and > > of the other, 4.95 (manufacturing tolerances being what they are, > > that's not unreasonable). The bulk of the current will be conducted > > by the 7805 with the higher voltage output. One might put a resistor > > in series with the output of each one to balance the load a bit, but > > that would play hob with the voltage regulation. (On the other hand, > > this technique is used when paralleling rectifiers to balance the > > current.) > > But I thought part of the problem was that the regulator with the > slightly higher output voltage would drive the voltage difference > against the output of the lower-voltage regulator? Wouldn't isolation > diodes prevent that from happening? > > Peace... Sridhar No It would still be a supplied by the regulator with the largest voltage out. I did mention that these regulators are designed to run in the current shut-down mode, indefinitely unless the power spec is exceeded. That means they can be paralleled with care. The regulator, with the slightly higher voltage, will current limit, and then start loading up the next regulator. It's not the best for the life of the regulator but still within the design spec of the regulator. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390710/direct/01/ From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jan 19 20:56:34 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 18:56:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Attacking NT "through MS-DOS" Message-ID: <201001200256.o0K2uYkM006064@floodgap.com> I'm not pointing this out to beat on poor Josh! I'm not! I just think it's an interesting angle that support for legacy 16-bit MS-DOS and Win3.1 apps has apparently lead to the unearthing of a 17-year-old Windows NT security flaw. The really amusing thing would be if something similar existed in Classic on OS X, or Rosetta. http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/fulldisclosure/2010-01/0346.html -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- This message will self-destruct in five seconds. Good luck, Jim. -- M:I ---- From evan at snarc.net Tue Jan 19 20:57:46 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 21:57:46 -0500 Subject: MARCH rescue of Univac 1219(s) Message-ID: <4B56712A.7080204@snarc.net> This weekend, we in MARCH are rescuing a Univac 1219 (early/mid-1960s military version of Univac 418). We're also getting a second parts machine and several teletypes (unknown model) and some spare parts. It's all coming from the Johns Hopkins University Applies Physics Laboratory. We hope to find out what these machines were actually used for .... if that's not secret. We're going to put the full 1219 directly into exhibit, and gradually clean it, etc. .... the parts machine and other stuff will go into storage. There isn't any storage or I/O console with this donation. Whatever .... we're getting some big iron that says "Univac" on it, so I'm happy. It will be displayed right next to our Straight-8. Permission granted to be jealous. ;) - Evan From pye at mactec.com.au Tue Jan 19 21:06:44 2010 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 13:06:44 +1000 Subject: Panasonic JD series software Message-ID: I have recently acquired a Panasonic JD-850M, but don't have any info or boot disks. Does anyone know where I may be able to find CP/M boot disk images and/or documentation? Apparently these machines ran CP/M 1.4 and 2.2.. The machine I've got has dual 8 inch floppy drives. Regards, Chris Pye... From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 19 21:10:00 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 19:10:00 -0800 Subject: MARCH rescue of Univac 1219(s) In-Reply-To: <4B56712A.7080204@snarc.net> References: <4B56712A.7080204@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4B567408.60304@bitsavers.org> On 1/19/10 6:57 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Permission granted to be jealous. ;) > There was a 418 at the West Texas Air Museum that was looking for a home last summer. From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Tue Jan 19 21:39:00 2010 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 22:39:00 -0500 Subject: Attacking NT "through MS-DOS" In-Reply-To: <201001200256.o0K2uYkM006064@floodgap.com> References: <201001200256.o0K2uYkM006064@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e1001191939i71f774ffv9ac736afd4b23eec@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 9:56 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I'm not pointing this out to beat on poor Josh! I'm not! I just think it's > an interesting angle that support for legacy 16-bit MS-DOS and Win3.1 apps > has > apparently lead to the unearthing of a 17-year-old Windows NT security flaw I thought Microsoft nixed the old DOS routines, along with the OS/2 compatibility layer, in Windows XP? It's near-insanity to keep those low level routines around this long - they should have been virtualized a long time ago. Heck, DOSBox runs DOS software better than the console nowadays. From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Jan 19 21:59:51 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 19:59:51 -0800 Subject: Attacking NT "through MS-DOS" In-Reply-To: <5f7d1b0e1001191939i71f774ffv9ac736afd4b23eec@mail.gmail.com> References: <201001200256.o0K2uYkM006064@floodgap.com> <5f7d1b0e1001191939i71f774ffv9ac736afd4b23eec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B567FB7.9010005@mail.msu.edu> Jason McBrien wrote: > On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 9:56 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > >> I'm not pointing this out to beat on poor Josh! I'm not! I just think it's >> an interesting angle that support for legacy 16-bit MS-DOS and Win3.1 apps >> has >> apparently lead to the unearthing of a 17-year-old Windows NT security flaw >> > > > I thought Microsoft nixed the old DOS routines, along with the OS/2 > compatibility layer, in Windows XP? It's near-insanity to keep those low > level routines around this long - they should have been virtualized a long > time ago. Heck, DOSBox runs DOS software better than the console nowadays. > > They are, and have been, virtualized since NT 3.1. (It's not called the NT Virtual DOS Machine for nothing.) The bug here is in the thunking layer for BIOS calls (translating a DOS disk read into an NT version, etc...) Josh From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Jan 19 22:00:33 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 20:00:33 -0800 Subject: Attacking NT "through MS-DOS" In-Reply-To: <201001200256.o0K2uYkM006064@floodgap.com> References: <201001200256.o0K2uYkM006064@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4B567FE1.3090607@mail.msu.edu> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I'm not pointing this out to beat on poor Josh! I'm not! I just think it's > an interesting angle that support for legacy 16-bit MS-DOS and Win3.1 apps has > apparently lead to the unearthing of a 17-year-old Windows NT security flaw. > > The really amusing thing would be if something similar existed in Classic > on OS X, or Rosetta. > > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/fulldisclosure/2010-01/0346.html > Hey, I can handle it :). Interesting bug. I'm not a kernel hacker and I don't know the details of how the NTVDM works all that well, but I'm surprised that the CreateRemoteThread() call on the VDM subsystem required for the exploit would actually work if you weren't already an Administrator. (In which case an app running locally can already own the box in any number of other ways). NTVDM and 16-bit support in general have been removed from 64-bit SKUs of Windows, starting with the 64-bit edition of XP. I miss it sometimes, but there's always VirtualPC/VirtualBox/VMWare or the trusty PS/2 model 80 I have sitting over here... ;) (My favorite Windows bug has to be the csrss backspace bug (Fixed in Vista!) : http://www.juniper.net/security/auto/vulnerabilities/vuln3478.html) - Josh From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jan 19 23:13:57 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 21:13:57 -0800 Subject: MARCH rescue of Univac 1219(s) References: <4B56712A.7080204@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4B569114.7A6040C8@cs.ubc.ca> Evan Koblentz wrote: > > This weekend, we in MARCH are rescuing a Univac 1219 (early/mid-1960s > military version of Univac 418). We're also getting a second parts > machine and several teletypes (unknown model) and some spare parts. > > It's all coming from the Johns Hopkins University Applies Physics > Laboratory. We hope to find out what these machines were actually used > for .... if that's not secret. > > We're going to put the full 1219 directly into exhibit, and gradually > clean it, etc. .... the parts machine and other stuff will go into storage. > > There isn't any storage or I/O console with this donation. Whatever > .... we're getting some big iron that says "Univac" on it, so I'm happy. > > It will be displayed right next to our Straight-8. > > Permission granted to be jealous. ;) .. Indeed. I hope we get to see photos later. Here's one use they were put to: http://mccworkshop.com/computers/comphistory1.htm Love the slide-out logic drawers. I have some univac plug-in PCB modules that look like those in the photo. From evan at snarc.net Tue Jan 19 23:20:27 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 00:20:27 -0500 Subject: MARCH rescue of Univac 1219(s) In-Reply-To: <4B569114.7A6040C8@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4B56712A.7080204@snarc.net> <4B569114.7A6040C8@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4B56929B.5060400@snarc.net> >> Permission granted to be jealous. ;) >> > .. Indeed. I hope we get to see photos later. I promise. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 20 00:46:15 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 01:46:15 -0500 Subject: Computer speed over time [Was: Re: PDP-8/L value] In-Reply-To: <201001192253.o0JMrrlb062948@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <06e601ca988f$c0699290$04000100@Alexandre> <201001192253.o0JMrrlb062948@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: On Jan 19, 2010, at 5:52 PM, John Foust wrote: >> The people who DO know what RAM is know that last-gen and last- >> last-gen RAM is a whole lot CHEAPER than bleeding-edge stuff, and >> know where to find it. > > You're saying that old PC133, PC2100, PC2700 RAM is cheaper in > equivalent size/stick than today's cheapest RAM? > > What's your price on a new 1 gig PC133, PC2100, PC2700 stick? I haven't checked them all, but I certainly don't see them being particularly more expensive than the latest whiz-bang memory. I bought 512MB PC2700 DIMMs this afternoon for ~$8/ea. I haven't bought any 1GB DIMMs recently. But seriously; check eBay. There doesn't seem to be that much of a price spread. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From chrise at pobox.com Tue Jan 19 07:28:52 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 07:28:52 -0600 Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: <30EA148C-0BF5-4F38-92BA-2D7BE86D2213@neurotica.com> References: <20100117213139.GL9653@n0jcf.net> <20100118220024.GC9653@n0jcf.net> <30EA148C-0BF5-4F38-92BA-2D7BE86D2213@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20100119132852.GD29564@n0jcf.net> On Tuesday (01/19/2010 at 03:34AM -0500), Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 18, 2010, at 5:00 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: >> Is it fair (as in rational, smart, non-stupid) to put multiple 7805 in >> parallel? Can't say I've ever seen that done. Only the more typical >> design of adding a pass transistor to carry more current. > > What about balancing problems? They won't be identical from part to > part.. Then that means only one of them carries most of the current... True. I've had very few power supply failures in my life but those that I have had, were shorted 2N3055's used as pass transistors around 78xx regulators. So, I have grown to not appreciate that approach either. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From chrise at pobox.com Tue Jan 19 07:38:52 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 07:38:52 -0600 Subject: [personal] Re: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: <000701ca9905$28f9dbb0$961ca8c0@mss.local> References: <20100117213139.GL9653@n0jcf.net> <30EA148C-0BF5-4F38-92BA-2D7BE86D2213@neurotica.com> <000701ca9905$28f9dbb0$961ca8c0@mss.local> Message-ID: <20100119133852.GE29564@n0jcf.net> On Tuesday (01/19/2010 at 12:44PM -0000), Mike Hatch wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 8:34 AM > Subject: [personal] Re: Altair 680 power supply... > > >> On Jan 18, 2010, at 5:00 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: >>> Is it fair (as in rational, smart, non-stupid) to put multiple 7805 in >>> parallel? Can't say I've ever seen that done. Only the more typical >>> design of adding a pass transistor to carry more current. >> >> What about balancing problems? They won't be identical from part to >> part.. > > What's the current ?, 78S05 will give 2A The discussion was about a way to get more current from a 7805 design that uses a bypass resistor to cheat the regulator. A number of TO-220 packaged options were suggested but I was curious if one could get there with a different sort of cheat-- since plain old 7805 are so cheap and plentiful (still). > 7805 cannot be directly paralleled due to the small difference in > regulation points part to part. You would need a small value series > resistor per part to load share. Right. I saw one other suggestion that in addition to the series resistor you would also bring them into a Schottky diode summing network which presumably keeps them from back driving each other. In any case, you need enough other stuff to accomplish this that retrofitting with an LM323, 78S05 or any of the drop-in switchers is probably a much better option. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From gksloane at hotmail.com Tue Jan 19 07:55:13 2010 From: gksloane at hotmail.com (Gary Sloane) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 05:55:13 -0800 Subject: MMD-2 and E&L Instruments Message-ID: You gentlemen know where I can get copies of the schematics for the MMD-2? Can't find them anywhere... Gary Sloane From grant at stockly.com Wed Jan 20 02:17:03 2010 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 23:17:03 -0900 Subject: Computer speed over time [Was: Re: PDP-8/L value] In-Reply-To: References: <06e601ca988f$c0699290$04000100@Alexandre> <201001192253.o0JMrrlb062948@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <0KWJ008N9DUFDA40@msgmmp-1.gci.net> At 09:46 PM 1/19/2010, you wrote: >On Jan 19, 2010, at 5:52 PM, John Foust wrote: >>>The people who DO know what RAM is know that last-gen and last- >>>last-gen RAM is a whole lot CHEAPER than bleeding-edge stuff, and >>>know where to find it. >> >>You're saying that old PC133, PC2100, PC2700 RAM is cheaper in >>equivalent size/stick than today's cheapest RAM? >> >>What's your price on a new 1 gig PC133, PC2100, PC2700 stick? > > I haven't checked them all, but I certainly don't see them being >particularly more expensive than the latest whiz-bang memory. I >bought 512MB PC2700 DIMMs this afternoon for ~$8/ea. I haven't >bought any 1GB DIMMs recently. > > But seriously; check eBay. There doesn't seem to be that much of >a price spread. New DDR3 1333 memory is about $22 per GB. I have 12GB in my computer, and IE thanks me. : ) 16 windows are consuming about 6GB. Grant From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Wed Jan 20 03:05:59 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 01:05:59 -0800 Subject: Computer speed over time [Was: Re: PDP-8/L value] In-Reply-To: <0KWJ008N9DUFDA40@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: <06e601ca988f$c0699290$04000100@Alexandre> <201001192253.o0JMrrlb062948@billY.EZWIND.NET> <0KWJ008N9DUFDA40@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <4B56C777.4070706@mail.msu.edu> Grant Stockly wrote: > > New DDR3 1333 memory is about $22 per GB. I have 12GB in my computer, > and IE thanks me. : ) 16 windows are consuming about 6GB. > > Grant > What on *earth* do you have open in those browser windows? :). I regularly have twice that many open and I rarely pass the 300mb mark... - Josh From grant at stockly.com Wed Jan 20 03:40:19 2010 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 00:40:19 -0900 Subject: Computer speed over time [Was: Re: PDP-8/L value] In-Reply-To: <4B56C777.4070706@mail.msu.edu> References: <06e601ca988f$c0699290$04000100@Alexandre> <201001192253.o0JMrrlb062948@billY.EZWIND.NET> <0KWJ008N9DUFDA40@msgmmp-1.gci.net> <4B56C777.4070706@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <0KWJ008ZEHIVDC50@msgmmp-1.gci.net> At 12:05 AM 1/20/2010, you wrote: >Grant Stockly wrote: >> >>New DDR3 1333 memory is about $22 per GB. I have 12GB in my >>computer, and IE thanks me. : ) 16 windows are consuming about 6GB. >> >>Grant >What on *earth* do you have open in those browser windows? :). I >regularly have twice that many open and I rarely pass the 300mb mark... They creep over time. I've had this problem in XP too. It seems memory is never given up. The longer the uptime, the bigger they get. Most of the windows have been open for 20 days. From dave09 at dunfield.com Wed Jan 20 08:35:49 2010 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 09:35:49 -0500 Subject: Cromemco Series-3 avail. in Burnie Australia Message-ID: <1F4ED9162A35@dunfield.com> Hi Everybody, I've been corresponding with a guy in Burnie Australia who rescued a Cromemco Series-3 machine from going to the dump, and would like to find a home for it ... I don't have any other detail... if someone in that area is interested, please me email me and I'll forward his contact info. Regards, Dave -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Jan 20 11:04:25 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 12:04:25 -0500 Subject: slightly OT: replacing ebm papst fan Message-ID: <4B573799.30609@verizon.net> I've got a piece of equipment where a single ebm-papst fan has failed on a fan tray that contains 8 fans. The manufacturer wants $2500 for a new fan tray. This seems like a waste of money to me and I'd like to fix it myself. The entire equipment refuses to stay powered up with one bad fan. The fan is made by ebm-papst, part number 3214J/2H4F-191, 24V DC, 1.2 amp, 29w. I'm pretty sure it's a "VerioFan" which implies it can be variably controlled for RPMs, and then it has a tach output. These feed back to a motherboard. Is anyone familiar w/ how the signaling works between the PCB and the fan? Maybe PWM? I believe there are 4-pins on one connector (molex style 2x2), and then another 2-pin header which is glued (epoxied) in place. Is it possible to fake out the tach feedback by simply connecting those wires to another working fan? I'm in the process of searching for datasheets, but I believe this model is discontinued. Thanks Keith From ray at arachelian.com Wed Jan 20 11:02:19 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 12:02:19 -0500 Subject: Computer speed over time [Was: Re: PDP-8/L value] In-Reply-To: <0KWJ008ZEHIVDC50@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: <06e601ca988f$c0699290$04000100@Alexandre> <201001192253.o0JMrrlb062948@billY.EZWIND.NET> <0KWJ008N9DUFDA40@msgmmp-1.gci.net> <4B56C777.4070706@mail.msu.edu> <0KWJ008ZEHIVDC50@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <4B57371B.30106@arachelian.com> Grant Stockly wrote: > > They creep over time. I've had this problem in XP too. It seems > memory is never given up. The longer the uptime, the bigger they > get. Most of the windows have been open for 20 days. That's a serious memory leak there. Open a bug report, not that they'll read it, or fix it, but open one up anyway. From ray at arachelian.com Wed Jan 20 11:02:33 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 12:02:33 -0500 Subject: Computer speed over time [Was: Re: PDP-8/L value] In-Reply-To: <0KWJ008N9DUFDA40@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: <06e601ca988f$c0699290$04000100@Alexandre> <201001192253.o0JMrrlb062948@billY.EZWIND.NET> <0KWJ008N9DUFDA40@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <4B573729.9030202@arachelian.com> Grant Stockly wrote: > > New DDR3 1333 memory is about $22 per GB. I have 12GB in my computer, > and IE thanks me. : ) 16 windows are consuming about 6GB. > Holy crap man! I've got over 400 tabs open in a firefox session in a Linux VM (including pidgin, several terminals, thunderbird, and a few running gedits) and ALL of it fits nicely in just under 1GB - and mind you that's also what I use to compile and test the Linux version of LisaEm. What the hell is your OS doing? And here I thought windows was horrible when I abandoned it around ~2005 (last version I used for non-work was 2000.) From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed Jan 20 12:07:48 2010 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 13:07:48 -0500 Subject: PDP 8A value? Message-ID: I saw the talk about PDP 8/L and found a 8A locally. It comes with a paper tape punch. What is the value of it? Does it worth it to bring to ebay, and offer the list member 10%-20% off? From alexeyt at freeshell.org Wed Jan 20 13:01:27 2010 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 19:01:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: OLPC [Was: Re: Computer speed over time [Was: Re: PDP-8/L value]] In-Reply-To: <201001191937.o0JJbRFM004062@floodgap.com> References: <201001191937.o0JJbRFM004062@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jan 2010, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > However, the only interesting computer I've seen in the last few years was > the OLPC XO-1, and that was more from a social and design standpoint than > technology (though I was delighted to note it uses OpenFirmware). It is a cute little machine, but... the keyboard is... well, remember the Sinclair Spectrum? Now imagine that but with keys 1/4 the area, and packed closely together. It _is_ waterproof, and I guess with 8-12 year old fingers the spacing isn't a problem, but for me it's the most inconvenient keyboard I've used on something bigger than a PDA or cell-phone. I wanted to use it as a low-weight low-power ssh console, but I'd rather slam my fingers in a door than try to type on that keyboard for any length of time. Alexey From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Jan 20 13:05:11 2010 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 19:05:11 +0000 Subject: PDP 8A value? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100120190511.GA20831@mail.loomcom.com> * On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 01:07:48PM -0500, 9000 VAX wrote: > I saw the talk about PDP 8/L and found a 8A locally. It comes with a paper > tape punch. What is the value of it? Does it worth it to bring to ebay, and > offer the list member 10%-20% off? Several pdp-8/a's have sold on eBay in the past year. They were clean and cosmetically nice looking examples. If I remember correctly they sold in the $750-$1000 range. No external storage was included, nor a rack. Those prices were just for the main chassis and cards. -Seth From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jan 20 13:09:24 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 11:09:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: OLPC [Was: Re: Computer speed over time [Was: Re: PDP-8/L value]] In-Reply-To: from Alexey Toptygin at "Jan 20, 10 07:01:27 pm" Message-ID: <201001201909.o0KJ9OJ6017256@floodgap.com> > > However, the only interesting computer I've seen in the last few years was > > the OLPC XO-1, and that was more from a social and design standpoint than > > technology (though I was delighted to note it uses OpenFirmware). > > It is a cute little machine, but... the keyboard is... well, remember the > Sinclair Spectrum? Now imagine that but with keys 1/4 the area, and packed > closely together. It _is_ waterproof, and I guess with 8-12 year old > fingers the spacing isn't a problem, but for me it's the most inconvenient > keyboard I've used on something bigger than a PDA or cell-phone. I wanted > to use it as a low-weight low-power ssh console, but I'd rather slam my > fingers in a door than try to type on that keyboard for any length of time. I got used to it, but I agree that touch typing on it was a lost cause. Eventually I developed an arched technique that was reasonably accurate, and I use it now and then if I need to pack lighter than my iBook. That said, at least it's better than typing on a ZX-81. :-) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- It's bad luck to be suspicious. -- Andrew W. Mathis ------------------------ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 20 13:13:10 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 11:13:10 -0800 Subject: slightly OT: replacing ebm papst fan In-Reply-To: <4B573799.30609@verizon.net> References: <4B573799.30609@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B56E546.21740.A18E94@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Jan 2010 at 12:04, Keith wrote: > The fan is made by ebm-papst, part number 3214J/2H4F-191, 24V DC, 1.2 > amp, 29w. I'm pretty sure it's a "VerioFan" which implies it can be > variably controlled for RPMs, and then it has a tach output. These > feed back to a motherboard. Is there any possibility of retrofitting a new 3214J-series fan with the added componentry? For example, I've discovered that many 2-wire NMB fans have a tach output on the PCB; the tach wires are simply left off. I don't know if the same is true for Papst, however. You might also check for an NMB equivalent: http://www.nmbtc.com/fans/ --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 20 13:16:54 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 11:16:54 -0800 Subject: OT: Funny CL category In-Reply-To: References: <201001191937.o0JJbRFM004062@floodgap.com>, Message-ID: <4B56E626.32743.A4FA6F@cclist.sydex.com> Not particularly germane to any discussion at hand, but funny nonetheless. There's a fellow on the local Craigslist "free" section offering a printer/scanner/toilet. Must be one of those new "all in one" models. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jan 20 13:31:25 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 11:31:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: OLPC [Was: Re: Computer speed over time [Was: Re: PDP-8/L value]] In-Reply-To: References: <201001191937.o0JJbRFM004062@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Jan 2010, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Tue, 19 Jan 2010, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > I've used on something bigger than a PDA or cell-phone. I wanted to use it as > a low-weight low-power ssh console, but I'd rather slam my fingers in a door > than try to type on that keyboard for any length of time. > So go get a small form factor USB keyboard and just plug it in. You could also continue to whinge about how your adult hands don't fit on a keyboard designed for children. Your call. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 20 12:34:45 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 18:34:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: <20100119132852.GD29564@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Jan 19, 10 07:28:52 am Message-ID: > I've had very few power supply failures in my life but those that I > have had, were shorted 2N3055's used as pass transistors around 78xx > regulators. So, I have grown to not appreciate that approach either. The normal cause of that is not providing some current limiting circuit. The 7805 includes one (of course), but adding an external pass transistor will negate this unless you add some more components (how to do it is shown in the better data sheets for said 3 terminal regualtors). If you don't and accidentally short the output to ground (or give it too heavy a load in some other way), the 2N3055 will most likely fail. And it may fail shorted -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 20 12:39:12 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 18:39:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Computer speed over time [Was: Re: PDP-8/L value] In-Reply-To: <20100119214759.GA13569@mail.loomcom.com> from "Seth Morabito" at Jan 19, 10 09:47:59 pm Message-ID: > > I have to explain quite often that a 'vintage computer' does not mean a > > 486-based PC. > > Maybe, but maybe not. The 486 is 21 years old now, and not as easy to find as > one might expect. For comparison, when I first started collecting vintage > computers, the pdp-8/e was 22 years old. I think that means I started a couple of years before you,... But anyway, I don;'t think age is the sole criterion for determining 'vitagenaess'. I really do have great difficult regarding any PC as being 'vintage' (with the possible exception of the IBMs that started it, and some of the PS/2s, possibly). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 20 12:43:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 18:43:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Altair 680 power supply... In-Reply-To: <4B5636C9.A27C2B18@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Jan 19, 10 02:48:40 pm Message-ID: > If one looks at high-current regulators they have multiple pass transistors > connected 'almost' in parallel, the catch is a small resistor is placed in the > emitter lead of each so the CE & BE circuits take on some linear > characteristics and distributes the current between the transistors. The > regulation sense point is then placed after all the resistors join together for > the output, so the resistors are inside the feedback loop and hence accounted > for in the regulation. I've seen at least one PSU where one of those eqalisation resistors was also used as the current sense resistor (the circuit assumed the load current was shared approximatley equally between the pass transistors). It looks neat on paper, but the problem comes if the pass transsitor feeding the resistor also used for sensing opens. Then the circuit thinks the PSU is delivering no current, and won't shut down even if the load is shorted. Not what I would call a good design. -tony From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Wed Jan 20 14:19:05 2010 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 12:19:05 -0800 Subject: Cirrus Logic SH260, SH360 Application Manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi: Anyone happen to have copies of Cirrus Logic SH260 or SH360 application manuals or other controller chips of the same families (265, 365, etc). I seem to recall the application manual and specification was one large document. Tom From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Jan 20 14:27:41 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 12:27:41 -0800 Subject: Wired Article, On Jan 19, 1983 Apple unveils Lisa In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381001191345t48636cf6r23552f3385f882d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <01CA991F.155E06C0@MSE_D03> <985684.38456.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <6dbe3c381001191345t48636cf6r23552f3385f882d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brian Lanning > Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 1:45 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Wired Article, On Jan 19, 1983 Apple unveils Lisa > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 3:39 PM, Rich Alderson > wrote: > >>> From:Christian Liendo > >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 12:56 PM > >>> Subject: Wired Article, On Jan 19, 1983 Apple unveils Lisa > > > >>> http://www.wired.com/thisdayintech/2010/01/0119apple-unveils-lisa > > > >> From: Ian King > >> Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 1:19 PM > > > >> Does this guy not know how to spell "Alto"? > > > > He is, after all, writing for *_WiReD_*. > > > > Tesler's comment regarding Smalltalk vs. the Star hardware argues in > favor of > > an Alto influence, but the team probably saw both the Star and the > Alto at > > PARC. > > I've always heard the story told the way the article reads... that > apple stole from xerox and microsoft stole from apple, who sued > microsoft, etc. I'm always left wondering why xerox didn't stomp on > both of them. > Maybe Xerox's lawyers were smarter and recognized that a 'look and feel' lawsuit was stupid. (The fact that later decisions legitimized the 'look and feel' theory to some extent does not change my opinion that it is stupid precedent.) After all, think about the Intel vs. NEC suit over the V20. NEC created a chip that "looked like a duck, quacked like a duck, etc." NEC was found faultless because they did not copy Intel microcode or masks: they built their own "duck" that looked and quacked the same way. In even less guileful fashion, both Apple and Microsoft took ideas arguably available from Xerox's publications and demonstrations and built their own products upon them. I have always considered Apple's suit against Microsoft to have been a nuisance suit pure and simple, but then IANAL.... -- Ian From mwichary at gmail.com Wed Jan 20 14:38:48 2010 From: mwichary at gmail.com (Marcin Wichary) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 12:38:48 -0800 Subject: Wired Article, On Jan 19, 1983 Apple unveils Lisa In-Reply-To: References: <01CA991F.155E06C0@MSE_D03> <985684.38456.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <6dbe3c381001191345t48636cf6r23552f3385f882d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1debc0351001201238x5804e6b3k67ec5427c116ef17@mail.gmail.com> > > One thing that I did notice the writer got completely wrong and forgot to > comment on: The version of Windows that caused the suit was *not* v1, but > v3. Windows v1 was a tiling text interface on top of MS-DOS, and looked > not > the least like anything from Apple or Xerox. > Without necessarily disagreeing with your premise, there are some very noticeable similarities in v1 already, though. One example is the Get Info pop-ups, very Mac OS in spirit, never to be seen again in future editions of Windows. Neither Windows 1 nor 2 sported proportional typefaces yet, either, which contributed to them feeling like "text" interfaces. One book that debunks many of the myths/misconceptions surrounding the entire Xerox/Apple/Microsoft debacle is Michael Malone?s excellent *Infinite Loop. *Very recommended. Marcin From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jan 20 14:40:52 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 15:40:52 -0500 Subject: Wired Article, On Jan 19, 1983 Apple unveils Lisa In-Reply-To: References: <01CA991F.155E06C0@MSE_D03> <985684.38456.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <6dbe3c381001191345t48636cf6r23552f3385f882d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B576A54.9080200@gmail.com> Ian King wrote: > that it is stupid precedent.) After all, think about the Intel vs. > NEC suit over the V20. NEC created a chip that "looked like a duck, > quacked like a duck, etc." NEC was found faultless because they did > not copy Intel microcode or masks: they built their own "duck" that > looked and quacked the same way. On the other side of the coin is the 6501 vs. 6800 thing. The argument in that case was that some of the people working on the 6501 worked previously on the 6800, right? Is there no one who worked at Apple or Microsoft who had previously worked at Xerox? Is there no one who worked at Microsoft who had previously worked at Apple? Peace... Sridhar From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Wed Jan 20 14:53:43 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 12:53:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Wired Article, On Jan 19, 1983 Apple unveils Lisa In-Reply-To: References: <01CA991F.155E06C0@MSE_D03> <985684.38456.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <6dbe3c381001191345t48636cf6r23552f3385f882d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <615227.51402.qm@web83913.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Only thing though... Xerox actually got something for the access they gave the Apple engineers... namely 100000 options of common Apple stock. It's not as though Apple stole the concept outright. And in other cases, former Xerox engineers ended up proliferating the GUI concept when they left to work at other companies aside from Apple. And of course the GUI concept wasn't first done on the Xerox Star... previous to Xerox's implementation the NLS had a lot of the same design paradigms. ________________________________ From: Ian King To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wed, January 20, 2010 2:27:41 PM Subject: RE: Wired Article, On Jan 19, 1983 Apple unveils Lisa > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brian Lanning > Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 1:45 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Wired Article, On Jan 19, 1983 Apple unveils Lisa > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 3:39 PM, Rich Alderson > wrote: > >>> From:Christian Liendo > >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 12:56 PM > >>> Subject: Wired Article, On Jan 19, 1983 Apple unveils Lisa > > > >>> http://www.wired.com/thisdayintech/2010/01/0119apple-unveils-lisa > > > >> From: Ian King > >> Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 1:19 PM > > > >> Does this guy not know how to spell "Alto"? > > > > He is, after all, writing for *_WiReD_*. > > > > Tesler's comment regarding Smalltalk vs. the Star hardware argues in > favor of > > an Alto influence, but the team probably saw both the Star and the > Alto at > > PARC. > > I've always heard the story told the way the article reads... that > apple stole from xerox and microsoft stole from apple, who sued > microsoft, etc. I'm always left wondering why xerox didn't stomp on > both of them. > Maybe Xerox's lawyers were smarter and recognized that a 'look and feel' lawsuit was stupid. (The fact that later decisions legitimized the 'look and feel' theory to some extent does not change my opinion that it is stupid precedent.) After all, think about the Intel vs. NEC suit over the V20. NEC created a chip that "looked like a duck, quacked like a duck, etc." NEC was found faultless because they did not copy Intel microcode or masks: they built their own "duck" that looked and quacked the same way. In even less guileful fashion, both Apple and Microsoft took ideas arguably available from Xerox's publications and demonstrations and built their own products upon them. I have always considered Apple's suit against Microsoft to have been a nuisance suit pure and simple, but then IANAL.... -- Ian From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 20 15:29:32 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 13:29:32 -0800 Subject: Licensing FAT file system? Message-ID: <4B57053C.259.11E6AB1@cclist.sydex.com> I ran across this curious squib on one of the embedded development sites: "Important: FAT file system is owned by Microsoft and must be licensed from them if you intend to sell a product that uses it. More information can be found on Microsoft's web site." Is this really true? There's so much (public domain) prior art to the FAT filesystem that I find it hard to believe that it would be patentable. --Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jan 20 15:39:28 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 13:39:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: Funny CL category In-Reply-To: <4B56E626.32743.A4FA6F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201001191937.o0JJbRFM004062@floodgap.com>, <4B56E626.32743.A4FA6F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Jan 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Not particularly germane to any discussion at hand, but funny > nonetheless. > > There's a fellow on the local Craigslist "free" section offering a > printer/scanner/toilet. > > Must be one of those new "all in one" models. Maybe it's for producing junk mail. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From feedle at feedle.net Wed Jan 20 15:42:41 2010 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 13:42:41 -0800 Subject: Licensing FAT file system? In-Reply-To: <4B57053C.259.11E6AB1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B57053C.259.11E6AB1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Jan 20, 2010, at 1:29 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Is this really true? There's so much (public domain) prior art to > the FAT filesystem that I find it hard to believe that it would be > patentable. You don't need to be right to file a lawsuit. From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jan 20 16:38:07 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 14:38:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Licensing FAT file system? In-Reply-To: <4B57053C.259.11E6AB1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B57053C.259.11E6AB1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Is this really true? There's so much (public domain) prior art to > the FAT filesystem that I find it hard to believe that it would be > patentable. > It's not, but that never stopped them from trying or the USPTO from blindly granting them. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From root at parse.com Wed Jan 20 15:14:46 2010 From: root at parse.com (Robert Krten) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 16:14:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Museum for sale Message-ID: <201001202114.o0KLEkj6066352@amd64.ott.parse.com> I am selling the pdp12.org museum. Major pieces include: PDP-12 PDP-8/L PDP-8/I PDP-8/E (3) PDP-8/F PDP-8/M (2) 7 H960 cabinets 1100+ spare modules (1000+ single, rest dual and quad) Shelves for modules Dual TU56 drive 3 x 8" floppy drives 40+ square feet of parts drawers (TTL, discretes, other semis, connectors, etc) 8 linear feet+ of documentation 100+ DEC handbooks 100+ 8" floppies DECCassette unit Several expansion chassis (some empty, some with full card sets) Paper tapes Drawings plus a ton more stuff I'll be entertaining serious offers until the end of February. Shipping would be on a local pickup basis -- I will be available for up to 5 days get it packed up and loaded onto your truck. If you need a more detailed inventory, send me an email; I'm working on putting everything together. Due to the sheer volume of stuff, it will be almost impossible to be 100% accurate (except for the big things, of course :-)) The pdp12.org website is back up for a few days to allow browsing. The 11/20, 11/R20, ML11, are sold. The pdp12.org address can be included if you like. -- Robert Krten From alexeyt at freeshell.org Wed Jan 20 16:48:09 2010 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 22:48:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: OLPC [Was: Re: Computer speed over time [Was: Re: PDP-8/L value]] In-Reply-To: References: <201001191937.o0JJbRFM004062@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Jan 2010, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Wed, 20 Jan 2010, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > >> I've used on something bigger than a PDA or cell-phone. I wanted to use it >> as a low-weight low-power ssh console, but I'd rather slam my fingers in a >> door than try to type on that keyboard for any length of time. >> > So go get a small form factor USB keyboard and just plug it in. You could > also continue to whinge about how your adult hands don't fit on a keyboard > designed for children. Your call. And defeat the purpose of having a compact, low weight device? No thanks. The EEE PC series of machines is not much larger, and their keyboards are 100% more usable; that's what I'm using now, but unfortunately they are much heavier and use much more power... There is a difference between whining and pointing out questionable design... if you assume any complaint is whining, I assume you are a troll. Alexey From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jan 20 16:50:57 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 14:50:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Museum for sale In-Reply-To: <201001202114.o0KLEkj6066352@amd64.ott.parse.com> References: <201001202114.o0KLEkj6066352@amd64.ott.parse.com> Message-ID: I really hope this is because you've decided you want to, and not because you have to. I know you've spent a lot of time and money the last 10 years years or so putting this together. I wish you the best of luck on finding a buyer. Zane On Wed, 20 Jan 2010, Robert Krten wrote: > > I am selling the pdp12.org museum. Major pieces include: > PDP-12 > PDP-8/L > PDP-8/I > PDP-8/E (3) > PDP-8/F > PDP-8/M (2) > 7 H960 cabinets > 1100+ spare modules (1000+ single, rest dual and quad) > Shelves for modules > Dual TU56 drive > 3 x 8" floppy drives > 40+ square feet of parts drawers (TTL, discretes, other semis, connectors, etc) > 8 linear feet+ of documentation > 100+ DEC handbooks > 100+ 8" floppies > DECCassette unit > Several expansion chassis (some empty, some with full card sets) > Paper tapes > Drawings > plus a ton more stuff > > I'll be entertaining serious offers until the end of February. > > Shipping would be on a local pickup basis -- I will be available for > up to 5 days get it packed up and loaded onto your truck. > > If you need a more detailed inventory, send me an email; I'm working > on putting everything together. Due to the sheer volume of stuff, it > will be almost impossible to be 100% accurate (except for the big > things, of course :-)) > > The pdp12.org website is back up for a few days to allow browsing. > The 11/20, 11/R20, ML11, are sold. The pdp12.org address can be > included if you like. > > -- > Robert Krten > From drb at msu.edu Wed Jan 20 15:47:34 2010 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 16:47:34 -0500 Subject: Licensing FAT file system? In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 20 Jan 2010 13:29:32 PST.) <4B57053C.259.11E6AB1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B57053C.259.11E6AB1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201001202147.o0KLlYMU010219@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Is this really true? There's so much (public domain) prior art to the > FAT filesystem that I find it hard to believe that it would be > patentable. Yes, it's true, they are trying to enforce "rights" after years of not enforcing anything. They appear to have gone to great lengths to fabricate some technical claims they hope will generate enough argument to get companies to pay up rather than fight. This presumably explains some of their recent filesystem activity -- what's the new one called? Can't find the thing where I first saw it now. De From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jan 20 17:05:30 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 18:05:30 -0500 Subject: OLPC [Was: Re: Computer speed over time [Was: Re: PDP-8/L value]] In-Reply-To: References: <201001191937.o0JJbRFM004062@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4B578C3A.7080106@gmail.com> Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Wed, 20 Jan 2010, Gene Buckle wrote: >>> I've used on something bigger than a PDA or cell-phone. I wanted to >>> use it as a low-weight low-power ssh console, but I'd rather slam my >>> fingers in a door than try to type on that keyboard for any length of >>> time. >>> >> So go get a small form factor USB keyboard and just plug it in. You >> could also continue to whinge about how your adult hands don't fit on >> a keyboard designed for children. Your call. > > And defeat the purpose of having a compact, low weight device? No > thanks. The EEE PC series of machines is not much larger, and their > keyboards are 100% more usable; that's what I'm using now, but > unfortunately they are much heavier and use much more power... > > There is a difference between whining and pointing out questionable > design... if you assume any complaint is whining, I assume you are a troll. Not that I would speak for Gene, but he used the word "whinge", not the word "whine". They have different meanings. "Whinge" specifically means "complain". "Whine" specifically means "cry". Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 20 18:15:55 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 19:15:55 -0500 Subject: Computer speed over time [Was: Re: PDP-8/L value] In-Reply-To: References: <201001191340.o0JDerwm011344@floodgap.com> <5685D3E5-C24C-41EF-9570-F7EACF789DE5@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Jan 19, 2010, at 2:23 PM, David Griffith wrote: >>> Now that Apple is also x86, there are no more interesting home >>> computers, >>> just variations on a theme with the same basic internals. >> >> True. But there are plenty of good ones still available used. >> >> Lacking that...a decent small Sun machine with a bunch of Sun Ray >> terminals makes for a good central computer for home use. They >> don't do streaming (steaming?) video all that well, but they will >> soon (they're getting better in that area). >> >> USB peripherals work...cameras, printers, thumb drives, some PDAs, >> etc. Sound works. They're tiny and silent. This makes them >> perfect for home applications. A decent 1U or 2U machine to act >> as a server can be had for a few hundred bucks at most. > > What bugs me about those Sun Rays is that Sun nickles and dimes you > to death on the licenses and such. I'm looking at a thin client > solution for my employer and so far Sun Rays don't look very good > from that perspective. Ask your rep...they waive pretty much all of it if you ask them. That said, I don't know of very many installations which have actually licensed it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jan 20 18:28:18 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 16:28:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Licensing FAT file system? In-Reply-To: from "C. Sullivan" at "Jan 20, 10 01:42:41 pm" Message-ID: <201001210028.o0L0SIor016402@floodgap.com> > > Is this really true? There's so much (public domain) prior art to > > the FAT filesystem that I find it hard to believe that it would be > > patentable. > > You don't need to be right to file a lawsuit. QFT. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "Logan! You renewed!" ------------------------------------------------------ From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jan 20 19:54:25 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 17:54:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: OLPC [Was: Re: Computer speed over time [Was: Re: PDP-8/L value]] In-Reply-To: References: <201001191937.o0JJbRFM004062@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Jan 2010, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Wed, 20 Jan 2010, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> On Wed, 20 Jan 2010, Alexey Toptygin wrote: >> >>> I've used on something bigger than a PDA or cell-phone. I wanted to use it >>> as a low-weight low-power ssh console, but I'd rather slam my fingers in a >>> door than try to type on that keyboard for any length of time. >>> >> So go get a small form factor USB keyboard and just plug it in. You could >> also continue to whinge about how your adult hands don't fit on a keyboard >> designed for children. Your call. > > And defeat the purpose of having a compact, low weight device? No thanks. The > EEE PC series of machines is not much larger, and their keyboards are 100% > more usable; that's what I'm using now, but unfortunately they are much > heavier and use much more power... > > There is a difference between whining and pointing out questionable design... > if you assume any complaint is whining, I assume you are a troll. > The XO is designed and built for *children* In that aspect it does a very good job. Under no circumstances is it "questionable design" if your adult hands don't fit on that tiny keyboard. You're essentially taking a Fisher Price hammer and stating the design is deficient because it doesn't do 16p nails very well. If me pointing that out makes me a troll, well whoop de fucking do. Gimme a hat and I'll wear it. I just call 'em like I see 'em. I bought my XO to make sure some kid somewhere got one that maybe wouldn't have otherwise. If you want a tiny ssh console, go buy a Pico-ITX or Nano-ITX board and build yourself a tiny box around it. I'm gonna stop now because the more I think about it, the madder I get. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 20 20:23:03 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 21:23:03 -0500 Subject: Museum for sale In-Reply-To: <201001202114.o0KLEkj6066352@amd64.ott.parse.com> References: <201001202114.o0KLEkj6066352@amd64.ott.parse.com> Message-ID: > 1100+ spare modules (1000+ single, rest dual and quad) I assume you are selling the museum as parts, and not just one large lot. Anyway, I am interested in any early Flip Chip modules - R, B, S, early G and so forth. I am trying to repopulate a LINC-8. Does you module inventory have these cards? And I suppose I must ask - what would you be willing to take for the entire museum? -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 20 20:24:17 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 21:24:17 -0500 Subject: Museum for sale In-Reply-To: References: <201001202114.o0KLEkj6066352@amd64.ott.parse.com> Message-ID: > -- > Will Oops, meant to be private. -- Will From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Wed Jan 20 17:47:43 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 10:47:43 +1100 Subject: Cromemco Series-3 avail. in Burnie Australia Message-ID: <5f2019e51001201547y6cc8ec46h45271f86f28c381b@mail.gmail.com> Thanks Dave, contact has been made and pickup arranged. cheers, nigel. www.retroComputingTasmania.com From iamvirtual at gmail.com Wed Jan 20 20:05:45 2010 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 19:05:45 -0700 Subject: TU58 Tape Images for 11/750 Message-ID: <2645f9871001201805o479fc59cr936d147b1a495366@mail.gmail.com> I have imaged all of the TU58's that I have in my possession. See http://www.iamvirtual.ca/VAX11/VAX-11software.html for additional 11/750 software including stand-alone backup and console images. From what I recall, I read each of the tapes twice and binary compared the results. I used PUTR running on a *shudder* modern laptop connected to my external TU58 drives. The external box uses RS232, so it was rather easy. Make sure you check the rubber roller inside the TU58 before you use it. I had to replace all of my rollers with a slice of PVC hose in order to use the tape drives. Is there anyone interested in acquiring the various bits of media and knowledge in one area specific to the Vax-11/750? The result of the work would still go to bitsavers, this would be a special interest group ;-) My 11/750 has VMS 4.7 loaded, and I am looking for images that I can use reinstall VMS onto a new drive (I don't want to scribble over top of the drive I have for fear it may contain something important). I would also like to organize a SIG for the really early PDP-11's (PDP-11/20 and PDP-11/10). Comments? --barrym > David Comley wrote: >> Has anyone imaged the VAX RDM Microdiagnostic tape (tape #1) for the 11/750 ? I'm > > Check my modest repository[1] at: > http://www.jaredblaser.com/antique/vax11750/TU58_diag_images/ > > I seem to have Tape #1. Please note that I haven't tried these images > yet. My 11/750's power supply is still under the weather, but slowly > we're sorting it out. > > -- Jared > > [1] Thanks to Barry M. for these images! From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Jan 21 02:16:58 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 09:16:58 +0100 Subject: OLPC [Was: Something completely different] In-Reply-To: <201001191937.o0JJbRFM004062@floodgap.com> References: <4B56032F.2050207@arachelian.com> <201001191937.o0JJbRFM004062@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20100121081658.GB6924@Update.UU.SE> > However, the only interesting computer I've seen in the last few years was > the OLPC XO-1, and that was more from a social and design standpoint than > technology (though I was delighted to note it uses OpenFirmware). What struck me as very interesting and rather new was the dual mode screen. I've seen that ASUS is experimenting with a similar thing (Pixel Qi): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7ZErQ5Kl6w (excuse the rather shaky video, but it is worth the time) Has any of this reached the market yet? Can one get a high contrast screen somewhere? Argh.. I'm slipping far from topic here, maybe I should write something about the PDP-11/73 with VSV11 videocard I got to play with yesterday. Cheers, Pontus. From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Thu Jan 21 08:15:43 2010 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 06:15:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: LCD Panel recommendations Message-ID: <674612.75348.qm@web56208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I'm looking to upgrade my current LCD panel 'collection' to something that will cope a bit better with the various classic systems I have. The main thing is that the panel should be able to sync to a very wide range of signals. My current iiyama will cope with a fair range (eg older style VGA through to the more unusual Sun resolutions), but struggles to lock onto some signals and gives a scrolling picture. As there is no way of adjusting the H V hold like the older monitors, its awkward, and means swapping to a regular CRT. Any recommendations? From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Jan 21 08:34:01 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 06:34:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: LCD Panel recommendations In-Reply-To: <674612.75348.qm@web56208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <554970.58873.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 1/21/10, silvercreekvalley wrote: > The main thing is that the panel should be able to sync to > a > very wide range of signals. My current iiyama will cope > with > a fair range (eg older style VGA through to the more > unusual > Sun resolutions), but struggles to lock onto some signals > and > gives a scrolling picture. As there is no way of adjusting > the > H V hold like the older monitors, its awkward, and means > swapping to a regular CRT. > > Any recommendations? How about ditching the LCD and using a regular CRT monitor? You're going to want to find something that supports Sync On Green as well. Actually, you say that it works with some Sun resolutions, but fails on some others.. what resolutions/machines does it have trouble with? If you're having problems with SGI systems - remember that SGI and Sun monitors have different pinouts for sync signals, and if I remember correctly, different sync polarities. -Ian From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Jan 21 09:19:26 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 09:19:26 -0600 Subject: LCD Panel recommendations In-Reply-To: <554970.58873.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <674612.75348.qm@web56208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <554970.58873.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001210719k3ac2765dk26609bcd83f82f86@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 8:34 AM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > How about ditching the LCD and using a regular CRT monitor? I agree with this approach. :-) I never quite liked LCD displays. I mean, for a huge tv hanging on the wall, it's sort of nice. But I think they're too fragile. There's no way I would give an LCD to my farm-animal kids. It's also nice to take up less desk space. Most most of the time, size and weight only matter when I'm moving the monitor. And that's not very often. I think regular old monitors just produce a better image, especially when it's not at the LCD's native resolution. So I've been collecting large VGA monitors lately. I recently picked up a 21" mag in perfect condition for the right price (free). It hasn't even yellowed. These things uses to be ridiculously expensive. But everyone's gotta have a flat panel I guess. > You're going to want to find something that supports Sync On Green as well. I lucked out when I bought a batch of amiga and video editing gear. The lot included a 20" studio monitor (JVC I think) that's bristling with connectors, knobs, and switches. I can select between all kinds of different video modes. I have it hooked up to an amiga 2000. There's a 23-pin to vga connector, which goes into a vga to component cable. Then I select sync on green and it works great. It of course works with composite video also, so I can hook it up to Apple 2es or c64s. And I haven't tried it, but I suspect it works with PAL also. It's a behemoth. But it's shaped like a cube instead of the usual goofy monitor shape. And it has handles. I'd like to find a few more. I'm thinking about upgrading the main monitor for my (microsoft/.net) development work machine at home. I'm planning to get an LCD tv instead of just a monitor. They appear to be a bit larger, and have hdmi, s-video, component, and composite inputs in addition to the vga and dvi connectors. That should allow some classic computer options as well since they'd have to sync way down to do ntsc. I'm not sure if that means they'd support an entire wide range of frequencies, or if there would be gaps. brian From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Jan 21 09:23:44 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 09:23:44 -0600 Subject: LCD Panel recommendations In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381001210719k3ac2765dk26609bcd83f82f86@mail.gmail.com> References: <674612.75348.qm@web56208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <554970.58873.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <6dbe3c381001210719k3ac2765dk26609bcd83f82f86@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001210723x24d3bde7k4b4c441d6e92226f@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 9:19 AM, Brian Lanning wrote: > I'm thinking about upgrading the main monitor for my (microsoft/.net) > development work machine at home. ?I'm planning to get an LCD tv > instead of just a monitor. ?They appear to be a bit larger, and have > hdmi, s-video, component, and composite inputs in addition to the vga > and dvi connectors. ?That should allow some classic computer options > as well since they'd have to sync way down to do ntsc. ?I'm not sure > if that means they'd support an entire wide range of frequencies, or > if there would be gaps. One more thing... does anyone know if a TV like this would support 15khz through the vga connector? or would it only take that frequency through the composite and/or component rca connectors? brian From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jan 21 09:44:01 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 07:44:01 -0800 Subject: Canon Cat collection Message-ID: Hi I'm forwarding this for a friend. This is probably the most complete Canon Cat collection I've seen. He has items that I've never seen from anyone else. If you are interrested please contact Ted at accentontravel at juno.com Later Dwight I am offering for sale, the following complete Canon Cat system: 1. Canon Cat V777 Work Processor, S/N R1201 2102, Software Version 1.74 2. Canon PR100 Cat 180 Daisy Wheel Printer, S/N F42012 926, w.Print Wheel 3. Canon Cat Reference Guide, 153 pages 4. Canon Cat How-To Guide, 150 pages 5. Canon Cat 180 Daisy Wheel Printer Manual, 28 pages 6. Canon Cat Catfile Manual for Application Software For Mail Merge Printing and Name and Address List 7. Canon Cat Catform Manual for Application Software For Line/Line Typewriter Mode and Stop Position Formats 8. Disc 1: Welcome to the Cat, a Tutorial 9. Disc 2: Canon Cat Form 1.1 Quick Ref for Forms and Line/Line Typewriter Mode 9. Disc 3: Canon Cat Secretarial Work Station and Calender 10. Disc 4: Canon Cat Mailmerge 11. Canon Cat 8 page Quick Reference Guide. Print wheels available are: 1. Prestige 10 2. Courier 10 3. Pica 10 4. Script 12 5. Gothic 12 For high speed printing, the Canon BJ-200e is a plug and play printer for the Cat. You may still be able to find one on eBay. If not, I can add a BJ-200e to this system for an additional charge. I would like to offer this complete system to a knowledgeable member of our group, before listing it on eBay. If you are interested, please reply with an offer. All components are working perfectly. This is a one of a kind offer and should do very well on eBay. Regards, Ted Blishak, Train Travel Consulting at Accent on Travel. accentontravel at juno.com NAMED ONE OF THE WORLD'S TOP TRAVEL SPECIALISTS BY CONDE NAST TRAVELER MAGAZINE SINCE 2002. 3939 S. Sixth St. #331, Klamath Falls, OR 97603 Phone: 541 885 7331 Fax: 1 309 276-3460 _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390710/direct/01/ From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Jan 21 10:41:11 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 09:41:11 -0700 Subject: VSV11 on pdp11, was : Re: OLPC [Was: Something completely different] Message-ID: <4B5883A7.8070003@e-bbes.com> Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Argh.. I'm slipping far from topic here, maybe I should write something > about the PDP-11/73 with VSV11 videocard I got to play with yesterday. That would be actually refreshingly on topic ;-) From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Jan 21 10:50:20 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 17:50:20 +0100 Subject: VSV11 on pdp11, was : Re: OLPC [Was: Something completely different] In-Reply-To: <4B5883A7.8070003@e-bbes.com> References: <4B5883A7.8070003@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <20100121165019.GA1585@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 09:41:11AM -0700, e.stiebler wrote: > Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > Argh.. I'm slipping far from topic here, maybe I should write something > > about the PDP-11/73 with VSV11 videocard I got to play with yesterday. > > That would be actually refreshingly on topic ;-) I don't have much to say I'm afraid. A friend notified me of a 11/73 at his workplace and I went and had a look. I didn't expect much but was surprised to find a fully loaded BA11 box and a full expansion box. In the expansion box was a VSV11 with two memory cards. The system seems to check out ok, but we haven't booted anything yet. I'm curious though, what software took advantage of the VSV11? /P From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Thu Jan 21 10:54:39 2010 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 17:54:39 +0100 Subject: VSV11 on pdp11, was : Re: OLPC [Was: Something completely different] In-Reply-To: <4B5883A7.8070003@e-bbes.com> References: <4B5883A7.8070003@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: From: "e.stiebler" Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 5:41 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: VSV11 on pdp11, was : Re: OLPC [Was: Something completely different] > Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > Argh.. I'm slipping far from topic here, maybe I should write something > > about the PDP-11/73 with VSV11 videocard I got to play with yesterday. > > That would be actually refreshingly on topic ;-) Indeed! That pdp8/L value thread is way off topic unless Windows xxx runs on an 8! Anyway, ISTR to have the FMPS of the VSV-11. And somewhere is a BA11-? box stored with a backplane containing modules: M7061, M7062 and M7064 if I remember that correctly. That box was connected to a PDP-11/23+ which I swapped 10 years ago. If needed I can search the VSV-11. Could take some time, because it might be 40 km away ... - Henk. From dundas at caltech.edu Thu Jan 21 11:34:12 2010 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 09:34:12 -0800 Subject: VSV11 on pdp11, was : Re: OLPC [Was: Something completely different] In-Reply-To: <20100121165019.GA1585@Update.UU.SE> References: <4B5883A7.8070003@e-bbes.com> <20100121165019.GA1585@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: At 5:50 PM +0100 1/21/10, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 09:41:11AM -0700, e.stiebler wrote: >> Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> > Argh.. I'm slipping far from topic here, maybe I should write something >> > about the PDP-11/73 with VSV11 videocard I got to play with yesterday. >> >> That would be actually refreshingly on topic ;-) > >I don't have much to say I'm afraid. A friend notified me of a 11/73 at >his workplace and I went and had a look. I didn't expect much but was >surprised to find a fully loaded BA11 box and a full expansion box. In >the expansion box was a VSV11 with two memory cards. The system seems to >check out ok, but we haven't booted anything yet. > >I'm curious though, what software took advantage of the VSV11? I'm not certain as I never used one, but the VSV11/VS11 appears to be primarily a (raster) frame buffer, but also has some display processor capability. [Something we used in the Graphics Lab, but never DEC, always third party frame buffers, and E&S display processors.] Therefore there may not be a lot of DEC software to take advantage of the device. There was a DEC driver for RSX-11M as a product. There may be other COTS or locally written software that uses it to advantage. Looks like XXDP will at least check out the device. See CVVSA and perhaps other XXDP routines. Might try "GT ON" under RT-11 to see what happens. The docs say it can emulate a VT11. If that's successful, you should be able to play Lunar Lander. Good luck; sounds like fun. John From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jan 21 11:52:30 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 09:52:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: VSV11 on pdp11, was : Re: OLPC [Was: Something completely different] In-Reply-To: <20100121165019.GA1585@Update.UU.SE> References: <4B5883A7.8070003@e-bbes.com> <20100121165019.GA1585@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Jan 2010, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > I'm curious though, what software took advantage of the VSV11? I know support exists for RSX-11M+, but that is about all I know. I have one 3rd party PDP-11 video card, and while most likely have RSX-11M software for it, I lack the means to actually hook it up to anything (or anything to hook it up to). Zane From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jan 21 12:54:15 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 13:54:15 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 video, was Re: VSV11 on pdp11 In-Reply-To: References: <4B5883A7.8070003@e-bbes.com> <20100121165019.GA1585@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <74488B44-AC13-419D-9E5B-99F0AB1DB4F5@neurotica.com> On Jan 21, 2010, at 12:52 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I have one 3rd party PDP-11 video card, and while most likely have > RSX-11M > software for it, I lack the means to actually hook it up to > anything (or > anything to hook it up to). I have a nice little dual-width Qbus board with a TMS9918 (classic app-note circuit) on it. I've never messed with it, but I hope to find time to someday. It'll be fun. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Thu Jan 21 13:06:06 2010 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 20:06:06 +0100 Subject: VSV11 on pdp11, was : Re: OLPC [Was: Something completelydifferent] In-Reply-To: <4B5883A7.8070003@e-bbes.com> <20100121165019.GA1585@Update.UU.SE> References: <4B5883A7.8070003@e-bbes.com> <20100121165019.GA1585@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: From: "Zane H. Healy" Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 6:52 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: VSV11 on pdp11, was : Re: OLPC [Was: Something completelydifferent] > > On Thu, 21 Jan 2010, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > >> I'm curious though, what software took advantage of the VSV11? > > I know support exists for RSX-11M+, but that is about all I know. > > I have one 3rd party PDP-11 video card, and while most likely have RSX-11M > software for it, I lack the means to actually hook it up to anything (or > anything to hook it up to). > > Zane Yes, memories are coming back. The 11/23+ to which the VSV11 was hooked up ran RSX-11M+. Later I regretted giving the system away. I never got a copy of RSX-11M+. The system also had a DEC-made joystick with 2 push buttons on top, one at each side (left and right) of the joystick. I still have that joystick, but it is in bad shape. The covers over the push buttons are badly worn. The VSV was connected to a heavy BARCO monitor (metal housing) with R-G-B BNC connectors. The system was used for typesetting and graphics design work in a company that printed (offset press using ink) customer envelopes. - Henk. From alexeyt at freeshell.org Thu Jan 21 13:06:06 2010 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 19:06:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: OLPC [Was: Re: Computer speed over time [Was: Re: PDP-8/L value]] In-Reply-To: References: <201001191937.o0JJbRFM004062@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Jan 2010, Gene Buckle wrote: > The XO is designed and built for *children* In that aspect it does a very > good job. Under no circumstances is it "questionable design" if your adult > hands don't fit on that tiny keyboard. You're essentially taking a Fisher > Price hammer and stating the design is deficient because it doesn't do 16p > nails very well. If me pointing that out makes me a troll, well whoop de > fucking do. Gimme a hat and I'll wear it. I just call 'em like I see 'em. There are keyboards in that size that work for both adult and child hands (e.g. EEE PC). OLPC decided to go with a design that is known from the 1980s to be uncomfortable (e.g. the Sinclair Spectrum) and not with other, commonly used designs that work for both adult and child-sized hands. I call that questionable. > I bought my XO to make sure some kid somewhere got one that maybe wouldn't > have otherwise. If you want a tiny ssh console, go buy a Pico-ITX or > Nano-ITX board and build yourself a tiny box around it. The "Give one Get one" program seemed to me to imply that the XO would be useful not just for a child in a 3rd world country, but for the donor as well, which is why the gonor gets a second laptop... if it was called "Give Two" and they both went to children then I would not be complaining. Alexey From john_finigan at yahoo.com Thu Jan 21 13:33:31 2010 From: john_finigan at yahoo.com (John Finigan) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 11:33:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: LCD Panel recommendations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <961766.43245.qm@web37002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> silvercreekvalley wrote: > I'm looking to upgrade my current LCD panel 'collection' > to something that will cope a bit better with the various > classic systems I have. > > The main thing is that the panel should be able to sync to > a very wide range of signals. I have a 2+ year old Sceptre X9G-NagaV which understands signals from both a Sun GX framebuffer and a SGI Indigo2 framebuffer. This is through my particular 13W3 adapter; I don't know if it would be true with every 13W3 to VGA pinout. It's a 1280x1024 LCD, and the SGI looks good, but the GX looks nasty because the GX can only do 1152x900, as far as I can tell, and the scaling is hard to look at. I also have an slightly newer Acer AL2216W widescreen, 1680x1050 native. Surprisingly, it understands the GX output and looks better than the Sceptre scaling from 1152x900. Never tried it with the SGI. John Finigan From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Thu Jan 21 13:42:17 2010 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 11:42:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: LCD Panel recommendations Message-ID: <294205.62916.qm@web56204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hi, Thanks for the ideas. I already have a CRT which works great but its totally massive (33Kg) and takes up a whole desk. I use LCD panels mainly to save deskspace. The iiyama is pretty good, and will sync on green, etc, but seems to loose horizontal sync with some older framebuffers. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 21 13:52:54 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 11:52:54 -0800 Subject: LCD Panel recommendations In-Reply-To: <961766.43245.qm@web37002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: , <961766.43245.qm@web37002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B584016.3947.796332@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Jan 2010 at 11:33, John Finigan wrote: > I also have an slightly newer Acer AL2216W widescreen, 1680x1050 > native. Surprisingly, it understands the GX output and looks better > than the Sceptre scaling from 1152x900. Never tried it with the SGI. You may want to also look at some of the NEC Multisync LCD monitors. Some have 5 BNC hookups and accept separate sync, combined or SOG. A few models will sync down to 24KHz. But the prices will bring tears to your eyes. So you may want to look for a used unit. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jan 21 14:44:53 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 12:44:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: OLPC [Was: Re: Computer speed over time [Was: Re: PDP-8/L value]] In-Reply-To: References: <201001191937.o0JJbRFM004062@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Jan 2010, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Wed, 20 Jan 2010, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> The XO is designed and built for *children* In that aspect it does a very >> good job. Under no circumstances is it "questionable design" if your adult >> hands don't fit on that tiny keyboard. You're essentially taking a Fisher >> Price hammer and stating the design is deficient because it doesn't do 16p >> nails very well. If me pointing that out makes me a troll, well whoop de >> fucking do. Gimme a hat and I'll wear it. I just call 'em like I see 'em. > > There are keyboards in that size that work for both adult and child hands > (e.g. EEE PC). OLPC decided to go with a design that is known from the 1980s > to be uncomfortable (e.g. the Sinclair Spectrum) and not with other, commonly > used designs that work for both adult and child-sized hands. I call that > questionable. > Oh right. Just how long do you think that fancy EEE keyboard would last in a hostile environment like Mongolia or the jungles of Peru? Are you seriously suggesting that such a keyboard would be appropriate for a child in an under or un-developed area? Seriously? The keyboard on a Spectrum woudln't last any longer than the EEE keyboard would. A keyboard like the one the EEE sports just begs to be packed with dirt and other detrius as time goes on. The keyboard used in the XO met three pretty important criteria: 1. It was durable and pretty much impervious to foreign material 2. It was sized to fit the hands of the expected end-user. 3. It was inexpensive - an important factor when every penny counts in a design. >> I bought my XO to make sure some kid somewhere got one that maybe wouldn't >> have otherwise. If you want a tiny ssh console, go buy a Pico-ITX or >> Nano-ITX board and build yourself a tiny box around it. > > The "Give one Get one" program seemed to me to imply that the XO would be > useful not just for a child in a 3rd world country, but for the donor as > well, which is why the gonor gets a second laptop... if it was called "Give > Two" and they both went to children then I would not be complaining. Oh right. Point me to one instance where you were lead to believe that the XO would be useful for anyone other than a child. I mean c'mon man, the damn thing was *designed* for children! The case, the OS, EVERYTHING was aimed at being friendly and usable to a little kid! It looks like a bright green and white sour-puss candy fer chrissakes! The sad thing is, me getting all wound up about this makes me nearly as pathetic as your are for complaining about it the first place. I think I found the perfect SSH console for you! http://www.toysrus.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2647157 See how nice and big that keyboard is? It's even got a little mousie! Weee! What's that? Not appropriate for the task you want it for? Well no shit, sherlock. Have a little gold sticker. Put it on your XO to remind you not to bitch at the designer because you want to use it for a purpose that was never intended. I really wanted to use my F-15 as a submarine, but it's all MADAC's fault because it's not water tight! The bastards! *facepalm* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Jan 21 15:16:01 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 21:16:01 -0000 Subject: Part Number for a MicroVAX II Fan Message-ID: <007501ca9ade$eff10dd0$cfd32970$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> I have a fan in my MicroVAX II which sometimes does not start without a push, which means that I can't really put the machine back in its external enclosure. I have been unable to find an illustrated parts breakdown to give me a part number for the fan, so I was wondering if anyone here knows the part number, or has a suggestion for how to get the fan to work properly again. The machine is in a BA23 enclosure and it is the front fan which does not work well. Thanks Rob From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Jan 21 15:28:00 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 14:28:00 -0700 Subject: Part Number for a MicroVAX II Fan In-Reply-To: <007501ca9ade$eff10dd0$cfd32970$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <007501ca9ade$eff10dd0$cfd32970$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4B58C6E0.3040103@e-bbes.com> Rob Jarratt wrote: > I have a fan in my MicroVAX II which sometimes does not start without a > push, which means that I can't really put the machine back in its external where are you located ? I probably could find a spare (used) one ... From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Jan 21 16:08:41 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 22:08:41 -0000 Subject: Part Number for a MicroVAX II Fan In-Reply-To: <4B58C6E0.3040103@e-bbes.com> References: <007501ca9ade$eff10dd0$cfd32970$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> <4B58C6E0.3040103@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <007f01ca9ae6$4b8feec0$e2afcc40$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> I am in the UK, but I am sure I could pay the shipping for a fan from just about anywhere. Thanks Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of e.stiebler > Sent: 21 January 2010 21:28 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Part Number for a MicroVAX II Fan > > Rob Jarratt wrote: > > I have a fan in my MicroVAX II which sometimes does not start without > a > > push, which means that I can't really put the machine back in its > external > where are you located ? I probably could find a spare (used) one ... From useddec at gmail.com Thu Jan 21 16:26:15 2010 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 16:26:15 -0600 Subject: DEC RZ drives Message-ID: <624966d61001211426p8320e5ej11a0ec2a243734de@mail.gmail.com> If anyone needs some DEC RZ drives please contact me off list. Thanks, Paul From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 21 23:32:18 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 23:32:18 -0600 Subject: starting my relay computer project Message-ID: Hi Group, After years and years of interest in this, way back to the sci am 'Ameteur Scientist' articles, I am beginning this project. I have a unique and amazing resource, I work for a semiconductor company in test engineering, and we use tons of those little TO-5 Teledyne relays in our IC test boards. I have scavenged >1000 or so for the project, so its not going to be a giant machine like Harry Porters: http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~harry/Relay/ I envision a small stack of cards, ALU, instruction decode, sequencer like Harrys machine. There are a few other relay CPUs on the web, and it looks like I will follow suit and use semiconductor RAM for program storage. To be a purist, I suppose I should go core, and I have bought an array or two off ebay, but the chances of me getting them up and running right away are nil, but would be the next thing. Code? Well I was thinking the whole thing will be small enough for a tabletop game, like 3d tic tac toe or such, with a nice stacked up plexiglass of the game board with red and green neon for the moves. Im anticipating a nice click click click for the search as it examines the board, shifts rotates, compares etc for the move checks. my CPU clock will probably be 25 Hz or more, these little relays are fast. I found some simple asm here: http://webster.cs.ucr.edu/AsmTools/MASM/TicTacToe/ttt1_1.html I welcome a conversation and dialog with any of similar interests in computing the hard way... Randy _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390708/direct/01/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 21 23:55:25 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 22:55:25 -0700 Subject: starting my relay computer project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B593DCD.30506@jetnet.ab.ca> Randy Dawson wrote: > > Hi Group, > > After years and years of interest in this, way back to the sci am 'Ameteur Scientist' articles, I am beginning this project. > > I > have a unique and amazing resource, I work for a semiconductor company > in test engineering, and we use tons of those little TO-5 Teledyne > relays in our IC test boards. I have scavenged>1000 or so for the > project, so its not going to be a giant machine like Harry Porters: > What about a ROBOT with a ELECTRONIC BRAIN? I think Scientific American had a project book , 1965 ish with all sorts of electro-mechanical things. Ben. From bqt at softjar.se Thu Jan 21 14:40:52 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 21:40:52 +0100 Subject: VSV11 on pdp11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B58BBD4.1030801@softjar.se> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > On Thu, 21 Jan 2010, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > >> I'm curious though, what software took advantage of the VSV11? > > I know support exists for RSX-11M+, but that is about all I know. > > I have one 3rd party PDP-11 video card, and while most likely have RSX-11M > software for it, I lack the means to actually hook it up to anything (or > anything to hook it up to). I can fill in a few details. More later, if there is interest... The VS11 and VSV11 are graphic subsystems for the Unibus and Qbus (the VS11 is a VSV11 and a bus adapter, ISTR). I have never played with one, but have some basic documentation that mentions it. It is definitely supported under RSX. The follow up product was/is called VSV21. This thing can do 640x480 with 16 colors (out of a palette of 4096). It has a very intelligent graphic processor, which can do all kind of operations in hardware. The VSV21 was atleast used by mass spectrometers, which is where I got mine from. A few are probably still in use around the world. I do have the RSX software for this thing (unfortunately not the latest version, though), and the manuals (but only for the software, not much hardware info, unfortunately). So I can't tell how the low level interface works between the graphics system and the PDP-11. What I do know is that the graphic system has it's own memory, and also use DMA. So graphic objects can reside either on the PDP-11, or on the praphic system, and be drawn by the graphic processor from either source. They can also be copied back and forth. The VSV21 can also act in a VSV11 compatible mode, by loading other microcode (that's where all my VSV11 knowledge comes from). As I remember the differences are that the VSV11 have lower resolution, less colors, and a simpler hardware accelerator for graphics. From a user application point of view, they are interchangeable. The VSV21, loaded with VSV11-compatible microcode, can be used by programs written for the VSV11, since all the operations goes through a device driver and (normally) a library as well. I've been meaning to write some fun software to play with the VSV21, but haven't had time yet. If someone needs some information, or wants to talk more, just ask ahead. Johnny From dlwfanservice at sbcglobal.net Thu Jan 21 15:17:50 2010 From: dlwfanservice at sbcglobal.net (David Williams) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 15:17:50 -0600 Subject: VSV11 on pdp11, was : Re: OLPC [Was: Something completelydifferent] Message-ID: <186591.74013.qm@smtp125-mob.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> -----Original Message----- From: Henk Gooijen Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 13:06 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: VSV11 on pdp11, was : Re: OLPC [Was: Something completelydifferent] From: "Zane H. Healy" Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 6:52 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: VSV11 on pdp11, was : Re: OLPC [Was: Something completelydifferent] > > On Thu, 21 Jan 2010, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > >> I'm curious though, what software took advantage of the VSV11? > > I know support exists for RSX-11M+, but that is about all I know. > > I have one 3rd party PDP-11 video card, and while most likely have RSX-11M > software for it, I lack the means to actually hook it up to anything (or > anything to hook it up to). > > Zane Yes, memories are coming back. The 11/23+ to which the VSV11 was hooked up ran RSX-11M+. Later I regretted giving the system away. I never got a copy of RSX-11M+. The system also had a DEC-made joystick with 2 push buttons on top, one at each side (left and right) of the joystick. I still have that joystick, but it is in bad shape. The covers over the push buttons are badly worn. The VSV was connected to a heavy BARCO monitor (metal housing) with R-G-B BNC connectors. The system was used for typesetting and graphics design work in a company that printed (offset press using ink) customer envelopes. - Henk. From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Fri Jan 22 03:54:27 2010 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 02:54:27 -0700 Subject: TU58 Tape Images for 11/750 In-Reply-To: <2645f9871001201805o479fc59cr936d147b1a495366@mail.gmail.com> References: <2645f9871001201805o479fc59cr936d147b1a495366@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B5975D3.6090208@rogerwilco.org> B M wrote: > I have imaged all of the TU58's that I have in my possession. > > See http://www.iamvirtual.ca/VAX11/VAX-11software.html for > additional 11/750 software including stand-alone backup and console > images. From what I recall, I read each of the tapes twice and binary > compared the results. > This is great news! Thank you very much for the good word and for the efforts to pull this together. > I used PUTR running on a *shudder* modern laptop connected to my > external TU58 drives. The external box uses RS232, so it was rather > easy. > Hey, it worked, right? ;) > Make sure you check the rubber roller inside the TU58 before you use > it. I had to replace all of my rollers with a slice of PVC hose in > order to use the tape drives. > Good advice, and I'm happy to report that the puck in my system is still in great condition. Must be the clear mountain air in Idaho where this unit lived before my rescue. > Is there anyone interested in acquiring the various bits of media and > knowledge in one area specific to the Vax-11/750? The result of the > work would still go to bitsavers, this would be a special interest > group ;-) > I've got a number of VMS distributions on 9-track tape and original distribution CDs that I can make available. (Let's not forget, too, that Ulli Hoershel in Germany has a vast and comprehensive collection of VMS distributions, and he may be interested.) I have very little else to pitch into a repository, but am happy to offer copies of what I have. > My 11/750 has VMS 4.7 loaded, and I am looking for images that I can > use reinstall VMS onto a new drive (I don't want to scribble over top > of the drive I have for fear it may contain something important). > Wise man. You might want to image your current drive(s), at least for safety's sake, via ethernet or serial to a VTserver or whatever you have available. Let's talk off-list if you need installation CDs or images of the same for your new disk. In the meantime, I'll check on what versions I have. > I would also like to organize a SIG for the really early PDP-11's > (PDP-11/20 and PDP-11/10). > I'm afraid I don't have anything from that *that* far back. ;) -- Jared From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Jan 22 05:29:13 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 04:29:13 -0700 Subject: VSV11 on pdp11 In-Reply-To: <4B58BBD4.1030801@softjar.se> References: <4B58BBD4.1030801@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4B598C09.1050806@e-bbes.com> Johnny Billquist wrote: > The follow up product was/is called VSV21. This thing can do 640x480 > with 16 colors (out of a palette of 4096). It has a very intelligent > graphic processor, which can do all kind of operations in hardware. The HD63484 if I'm not mixing up boards at the moment. Very nice thing for the time. Did some designs with it. (on VME) > I've been meaning to write some fun software to play with the VSV21, but > haven't had time yet. If someone needs some information, or wants to > talk more, just ask ahead. Just talk ;-) Cheers From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Jan 22 05:57:48 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 12:57:48 +0100 Subject: VSV11 on pdp11 In-Reply-To: <4B58BBD4.1030801@softjar.se> References: <4B58BBD4.1030801@softjar.se> Message-ID: <20100122115748.GA5147@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 09:40:52PM +0100, Johnny Billquist wrote: > The VS11 and VSV11 are graphic subsystems for the Unibus and Qbus > (the VS11 is a VSV11 and a bus adapter, ISTR). I have what I think is called a VTV or VMV (consists of M7066, M7067, M7068 and possibly something I don't remember). The M7066 is a UNIBUS to Qbus converter. It fits in one 11/34 box and ran a system called GAMMA-11. I think it might only be a vector system, do you know anything about it? On a related note, does anyone have GAMMA-11? It might be necessary when I try to restore this system. /P From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Jan 22 07:25:03 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 14:25:03 +0100 (CET) Subject: HP-IB Medusa chip Message-ID: I'm trying to repair a HP260/30 which fails self-test at step 9 (HP-IB Programmed I/O test). It seems that the HP-IB interface card is the cause. There's a 1TL1-0001 HP-IB controller IC and I'd like to know if it could be replaced with a 1TL1-0006. The other ICs are all standard TTL (apart from the 74F403 FIFO memories and the HP-IB bus drivers). I know I've seen a pinout of the 1TL1 IC somewhere, but can't remember where... Christian From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Fri Jan 22 07:50:38 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 14:50:38 +0100 Subject: HP-IB Medusa chip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <37B8308D5E724AF1964C1FB93A870DB7@xp1800> Christian, You should try the service manuals of the HP 1000F series interface cards. You need the service manual of the HP-IB cards. http://www.hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?hwdoc=662 http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=522 -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Christian Corti > Verzonden: vrijdag 22 januari 2010 14:25 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: HP-IB Medusa chip > > I'm trying to repair a HP260/30 which fails self-test at step > 9 (HP-IB Programmed I/O test). It seems that the HP-IB > interface card is the cause. > There's a 1TL1-0001 HP-IB controller IC and I'd like to know > if it could be replaced with a 1TL1-0006. The other ICs are > all standard TTL (apart from the 74F403 FIFO memories and the > HP-IB bus drivers). > I know I've seen a pinout of the 1TL1 IC somewhere, but can't > remember where... > > Christian From root at parse.com Fri Jan 22 07:51:02 2010 From: root at parse.com (Robert Krten) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 08:51:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Museum for sale Message-ID: <201001221351.o0MDp2IF086860@amd64.ott.parse.com> Hi all, Apparently, I was not clear :-) I'm hoping to sell the museum in *one lot*, and that's what the end of February deadline applies to. If I haven't received an acceptable offer by then, then I will certainly consider selling individual pieces... Please ping me after the end of February if you are interested in individual pieces. Hope that clarifies things :-) Cheers, -RK Forwarded message: > From root Wed Jan 20 16:14:46 2010 > Subject: Museum for sale > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 16:14:46 -0500 (EST) > X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL6] > Content-Length: 1108 > > > I am selling the pdp12.org museum. Major pieces include: > PDP-12 > PDP-8/L > PDP-8/I > PDP-8/E (3) > PDP-8/F > PDP-8/M (2) > 7 H960 cabinets > 1100+ spare modules (1000+ single, rest dual and quad) > Shelves for modules > Dual TU56 drive > 3 x 8" floppy drives > 40+ square feet of parts drawers (TTL, discretes, other semis, connectors, etc) > 8 linear feet+ of documentation > 100+ DEC handbooks > 100+ 8" floppies > DECCassette unit > Several expansion chassis (some empty, some with full card sets) > Paper tapes > Drawings > plus a ton more stuff > > I'll be entertaining serious offers until the end of February. > > Shipping would be on a local pickup basis -- I will be available for > up to 5 days get it packed up and loaded onto your truck. > > If you need a more detailed inventory, send me an email; I'm working > on putting everything together. Due to the sheer volume of stuff, it > will be almost impossible to be 100% accurate (except for the big > things, of course :-)) > > The pdp12.org website is back up for a few days to allow browsing. > The 11/20, 11/R20, ML11, are sold. The pdp12.org address can be > included if you like. > > -- > Robert Krten > -- Robert Krten From evan at snarc.net Fri Jan 22 09:22:07 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 10:22:07 -0500 Subject: Museum for sale In-Reply-To: <201001221351.o0MDp2IF086860@amd64.ott.parse.com> References: <201001221351.o0MDp2IF086860@amd64.ott.parse.com> Message-ID: <4B59C29F.9050108@snarc.net> > Hi all, > > Apparently, I was not clear :-) I'm hoping to sell the museum in *one lot* Nice collection, but it's kind of dumb to call it a "museum". From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Jan 22 09:45:18 2010 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 10:45:18 -0500 Subject: Altair 680, up and running Message-ID: For anyone interested, after the power supply referb and chip reinstall the 680 was not fully functional. The front panel seemed to work properly, but examining page zero revealed that one of the 2102 RAMs was dead. This wasn't surprising and a quick replacement had front panel deposit and retrieval to RAM fully operational. Examining the contents of the 1702 EPROM with the front panel showed that the monitor code was in tact, but nothing was coming out of the serial port when the unit was reset. Looking around on page zero with the front panel after a reset revealed that the monitor code was running, so probably something was wrong with the serial port. I put a scope on the chip select lines of the UART and could see the monitor code polling for inbound characters. Was the UART dead? On a lark I put a probe on the receive clock pin of the UART. Nothing. I put it on the crystal. It was making a good signal. Turns out the 4702 bit rate generator was dead. It seems to me that that is a very odd component to fail. What surprised me even more was that I happened to have a tube of 4702s in my "random chips" box. I have no idea where I got them. I've never worked with a 4702 until now. The only small drawback is that the date codes on these 4702s are 1982. All of the other chips in the 680 have 1975 and 1976 date codes, including the 2102 I replaced. With the 4702 replaced, the monitor is active on the serial port. Now to find some _SMALL_ programs to push to it. Thanks to all for the power supply help. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Jan 22 09:35:37 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 13:35:37 -0200 Subject: Museum for sale References: <201001221351.o0MDp2IF086860@amd64.ott.parse.com> Message-ID: <227201ca9b7b$1bd0c570$04000100@Alexandre> > Apparently, I was not clear :-) I'm hoping to sell the museum in *one > lot*, > and that's what the end of February deadline applies to. If I haven't > received an acceptable offer by then, then I will certainly consider > selling individual pieces... Please ping me after the end of February > if you are interested in individual pieces. > Hope that clarifies things :-) An idea of price would make it way more clear. Even because maybe it is cheaper than most people think, and it would make your sale easier... From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Jan 22 10:59:44 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 08:59:44 -0800 Subject: Museum for sale In-Reply-To: <4B59C29F.9050108@snarc.net> References: <201001221351.o0MDp2IF086860@amd64.ott.parse.com>, <4B59C29F.9050108@snarc.net> Message-ID: And it's kind of rude to call his statement "dumb". ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Evan Koblentz [evan at snarc.net] Sent: Friday, January 22, 2010 7:22 AM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Museum for sale > Hi all, > > Apparently, I was not clear :-) I'm hoping to sell the museum in *one lot* Nice collection, but it's kind of dumb to call it a "museum". From starbase89 at gmail.com Fri Jan 22 11:04:25 2010 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 12:04:25 -0500 Subject: Museum for sale In-Reply-To: References: <201001221351.o0MDp2IF086860@amd64.ott.parse.com> <4B59C29F.9050108@snarc.net> Message-ID: <2b1f1f551001220904j61948d81u14f3d36547624b@mail.gmail.com> The website is the museum On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 11:59 AM, Ian King wrote: > And it's kind of rude to call his statement "dumb". > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On > Behalf Of Evan Koblentz [evan at snarc.net] > Sent: Friday, January 22, 2010 7:22 AM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Museum for sale > > > Hi all, > > > > Apparently, I was not clear :-) I'm hoping to sell the museum in *one > lot* > > Nice collection, but it's kind of dumb to call it a "museum". > > From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Jan 22 12:06:00 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 11:06:00 -0700 Subject: LCD Panel recommendations In-Reply-To: <4B584016.3947.796332@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <961766.43245.qm@web37002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4B584016.3947.796332@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B59E908.9050007@e-bbes.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > You may want to also look at some of the NEC Multisync LCD monitors. > Some have 5 BNC hookups and accept separate sync, combined or SOG. A > few models will sync down to 24KHz. Any specific model numbers which have the BNC connectors ? Went to the NEC webpage, wasted a lot of time there :( From billdeg at degnanco.com Fri Jan 22 12:09:39 2010 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 13:09:39 -0500 Subject: Altair 680, up and running Message-ID: <5f879144$1e56d1c2$6c90cb38$@com> Bill, You could port VTL (very tiny language) "BASIC" into 1K, the code and the address instruction listing is in The Altair Yahoogroup files section ((I think)), or I may have the machine instructions handy if you need them. You can burn VTL onto the remaining 3 PROM slots on the board and then use a serial connection to dump programs into the computer at the VTL Prompt. THere are also sample programs from the Yahoo group. Or you can make a 8K board for the 680 so you can load MS BASIC for the 680 from tape. Bill > > With the 4702 replaced, the monitor is active on the serial > port. Now to find some _SMALL_ programs to push to it. > > Thanks to all for the power supply help. > > > > End of cctech Digest, Vol 77, Issue 24 > ************************************** From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Jan 22 12:10:51 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 11:10:51 -0700 Subject: scandoubler/flicker fixer etc. recommendations Message-ID: <4B59EA2B.2000804@e-bbes.com> Hi all, as we had the thread before about good LCD panels which would work on our old machines, I thought of a different approach : Why not use the semi-standard good quality lcd panels with 1600x1200 (4:3) format, and use some flicker/fixer scan doubler as converter ? Is there actually one, which would really work ? I mean, from the old 512x256 resolutions up to the 1024x768 would scale up nicely, accepts BNC, SOG, and whatever we else use on our lovely boxes ? Cheers From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Jan 22 12:13:51 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 19:13:51 +0100 (CET) Subject: HP-IB Medusa chip In-Reply-To: <37B8308D5E724AF1964C1FB93A870DB7@xp1800> References: <37B8308D5E724AF1964C1FB93A870DB7@xp1800> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jan 2010, Rik Bos wrote: > You should try the service manuals of the HP 1000F series interface cards. Hmm, I've never seen a 1TL1 on any of the HP1000/MEF series HP-IB boards, neither on the "Bus Interface" cards, nor on the "Disk Interface" cards. > http://www.hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?hwdoc=662 Oh, that's an A-series card..., thanks for the pointer. (But I really dislike hpmuseum's scans, they are barely readable) Christian From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Jan 22 12:25:48 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 18:25:48 -0000 Subject: Museum for sale In-Reply-To: <2b1f1f551001220904j61948d81u14f3d36547624b@mail.gmail.com> References: <201001221351.o0MDp2IF086860@amd64.ott.parse.com> <4B59C29F.9050108@snarc.net> <2b1f1f551001220904j61948d81u14f3d36547624b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00bb01ca9b90$561f53d0$025dfb70$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> My dictionary says a museum is "A building used for storing and exhibition of objects...". Not much exhibiting going on in this "museum". I think a museum is only a museum if the public can go there and see the physical objects. I don't think a web site can be a museum, unless the "objects" are software or other purely digital artefacts. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Joe Giliberti > Sent: 22 January 2010 17:04 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Museum for sale > > The website is the museum > > On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 11:59 AM, Ian King wrote: > > > And it's kind of rude to call his statement "dumb". > > ________________________________________ > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On > > Behalf Of Evan Koblentz [evan at snarc.net] > > Sent: Friday, January 22, 2010 7:22 AM > > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Museum for sale > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > Apparently, I was not clear :-) I'm hoping to sell the museum in > *one > > lot* > > > > Nice collection, but it's kind of dumb to call it a "museum". > > > > From feedle at feedle.net Fri Jan 22 12:38:24 2010 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 10:38:24 -0800 Subject: Museum for sale In-Reply-To: <00bb01ca9b90$561f53d0$025dfb70$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <201001221351.o0MDp2IF086860@amd64.ott.parse.com> <4B59C29F.9050108@snarc.net> <2b1f1f551001220904j61948d81u14f3d36547624b@mail.gmail.com> <00bb01ca9b90$561f53d0$025dfb70$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <16D9786D-F85A-49DD-A703-8151654EC02E@feedle.net> On Jan 22, 2010, at 10:25 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > My dictionary says a museum is "A building used for storing and exhibition > of objects...". Not much exhibiting going on in this "museum". I think a > museum is only a museum if the public can go there and see the physical > objects. I don't think a web site can be a museum, unless the "objects" are > software or other purely digital artefacts. So, buy the collection and make one. Problem solved. From mwichary at gmail.com Fri Jan 22 12:41:54 2010 From: mwichary at gmail.com (Marcin Wichary) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 10:41:54 -0800 Subject: Museum for sale In-Reply-To: <3428400188086757586@unknownmsgid> References: <201001221351.o0MDp2IF086860@amd64.ott.parse.com> <4B59C29F.9050108@snarc.net> <2b1f1f551001220904j61948d81u14f3d36547624b@mail.gmail.com> <3428400188086757586@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <1debc0351001221041i1e8da26at904cdf794715f58b@mail.gmail.com> > > My dictionary says a museum is "A building used for storing and exhibition > of objects...". Not much exhibiting going on in this "museum". I think a > museum is only a museum if the public can go there and see the physical > objects. I don't think a web site can be a museum, unless the "objects" are > software or other purely digital artefacts. > However, definitions change, and dictionaries will lag behind technology almost by definition. Is Amazon a store? Marcin From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Jan 22 12:45:08 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 13:45:08 -0500 Subject: Museum for sale In-Reply-To: <227201ca9b7b$1bd0c570$04000100@Alexandre> References: <201001221351.o0MDp2IF086860@amd64.ott.parse.com> <227201ca9b7b$1bd0c570$04000100@Alexandre> Message-ID: <201001221345.09001.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 22 January 2010, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > Apparently, I was not clear :-) I'm hoping to sell the museum in > > *one lot*, > > and that's what the end of February deadline applies to. If I > > haven't received an acceptable offer by then, then I will certainly > > consider selling individual pieces... Please ping me after the end > > of February if you are interested in individual pieces. > > Hope that clarifies things :-) > > An idea of price would make it way more clear. Even because maybe > it is cheaper than most people think, and it would make your sale > easier... Indeed, in my head, adding up the value of the systems quickly brings me to around US$20k. Finding someone who wants to spend that much on "old computers" right now may be difficult... Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jan 22 12:51:05 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 12:51:05 -0600 Subject: Museum for sale In-Reply-To: <00bb01ca9b90$561f53d0$025dfb70$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <201001221351.o0MDp2IF086860@amd64.ott.parse.com> <4B59C29F.9050108@snarc.net> <2b1f1f551001220904j61948d81u14f3d36547624b@mail.gmail.com> <00bb01ca9b90$561f53d0$025dfb70$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4B59F399.5020803@gmail.com> Rob Jarratt wrote: > My dictionary says a museum is "A building used for storing and exhibition > of objects...". Not much exhibiting going on in this "museum". I think a > museum is only a museum if the public can go there and see the physical > objects. I don't think a web site can be a museum, unless the "objects" are > software or other purely digital artefacts. At once point in time it was 'virtual museum', but folk seem to be increasingly dropping the 'virtual' bit these days... From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 22 12:54:01 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 10:54:01 -0800 Subject: LCD Panel recommendations In-Reply-To: <4B59E908.9050007@e-bbes.com> References: , <4B584016.3947.796332@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B59E908.9050007@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <4B5983C9.31248.40DF1D@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Jan 2010 at 11:06, e.stiebler wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > You may want to also look at some of the NEC Multisync LCD monitors. > > Some have 5 BNC hookups and accept separate sync, combined or SOG. > > A few models will sync down to 24KHz. > > Any specific model numbers which have the BNC connectors ? > Went to the NEC webpage, wasted a lot of time there :( Not the best organization, is it? I can tell you that my Multisync LCD2010 has BNC connectors, though. When it came out, it was very expensive ($4K), but it still performs well after 9 years. Another option is an industrial LCD, for example one for AVDO: http://www.avdodisplays.net/prodetails.asp?id=62 --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 22 12:59:48 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 10:59:48 -0800 Subject: Museum for sale In-Reply-To: <4B59F399.5020803@gmail.com> References: <201001221351.o0MDp2IF086860@amd64.ott.parse.com>, <00bb01ca9b90$561f53d0$025dfb70$@jarratt@ntlworld.com>, <4B59F399.5020803@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B598524.18990.462AD4@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Jan 2010 at 12:51, Jules Richardson wrote: > At once point in time it was 'virtual museum', but folk seem to be > increasingly dropping the 'virtual' bit these days... ...and it seems that the "virtual" is being subconsciously dropped from "virtual reality". For an interesting column on the subject, see Neville Holmes' column "The Varieties of Reality" in the January issue of IEEE Computer. --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jan 22 13:13:57 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 11:13:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Museum for sale In-Reply-To: References: <201001221351.o0MDp2IF086860@amd64.ott.parse.com>, <4B59C29F.9050108@snarc.net> Message-ID: I couldn't agree more Ian, but consider the source. Personally I think that this collection qualifies to be called a "Museum" more than most. I'm really surprised that Robert is looking to let go of all of this, he's put a lot of effort into building this collection/museum. It would be nice if this could go to a brick and mortor Museum. Zane On Fri, 22 Jan 2010, Ian King wrote: > And it's kind of rude to call his statement "dumb". > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Evan Koblentz [evan at snarc.net] > Sent: Friday, January 22, 2010 7:22 AM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Museum for sale > >> Hi all, >> >> Apparently, I was not clear :-) I'm hoping to sell the museum in *one lot* > > Nice collection, but it's kind of dumb to call it a "museum". > > From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Jan 22 13:23:08 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 17:23:08 -0200 Subject: scandoubler/flicker fixer etc. recommendations References: <4B59EA2B.2000804@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <00a401ca9b99$35778f90$0101a8c0@Alexandre> > Is there actually one, which would really work ? > I mean, from the old 512x256 resolutions up to the 1024x768 would scale up > nicely, accepts BNC, SOG, and whatever we else use on our lovely boxes ? There are cheap ones on www.dealextreme.com From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Jan 22 13:49:35 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 11:49:35 -0800 Subject: Museum for sale In-Reply-To: <00bb01ca9b90$561f53d0$025dfb70$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <201001221351.o0MDp2IF086860@amd64.ott.parse.com> <4B59C29F.9050108@snarc.net> <2b1f1f551001220904j61948d81u14f3d36547624b@mail.gmail.com> <00bb01ca9b90$561f53d0$025dfb70$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Well, it says right here [in a book in my personal collection] that the propagation of light is accomplished through a medium called the "ether". :-) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt Sent: Friday, January 22, 2010 10:26 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Museum for sale My dictionary says a museum is "A building used for storing and exhibition of objects...". Not much exhibiting going on in this "museum". I think a museum is only a museum if the public can go there and see the physical objects. I don't think a web site can be a museum, unless the "objects" are software or other purely digital artefacts. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Joe Giliberti > Sent: 22 January 2010 17:04 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Museum for sale > > The website is the museum > > On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 11:59 AM, Ian King wrote: > > > And it's kind of rude to call his statement "dumb". > > ________________________________________ > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On > > Behalf Of Evan Koblentz [evan at snarc.net] > > Sent: Friday, January 22, 2010 7:22 AM > > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Museum for sale > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > Apparently, I was not clear :-) I'm hoping to sell the museum in > *one > > lot* > > > > Nice collection, but it's kind of dumb to call it a "museum". > > > > From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Jan 22 13:51:45 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 12:51:45 -0700 Subject: scandoubler/flicker fixer etc. recommendations In-Reply-To: <00a401ca9b99$35778f90$0101a8c0@Alexandre> References: <4B59EA2B.2000804@e-bbes.com> <00a401ca9b99$35778f90$0101a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <4B5A01D1.3030902@e-bbes.com> Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Is there actually one, which would really work ? >> I mean, from the old 512x256 resolutions up to the 1024x768 would >> scale up nicely, accepts BNC, SOG, and whatever we else use on our >> lovely boxes ? > > There are cheap ones on www.dealextreme.com Sorry, didn't find anything there which accepts BNC & SOG ... and up to 1024x768 ... From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jan 22 13:49:56 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 11:49:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: scandoubler/flicker fixer etc. recommendations In-Reply-To: <4B59EA2B.2000804@e-bbes.com> References: <4B59EA2B.2000804@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jan 2010, e.stiebler wrote: > as we had the thread before about good LCD panels which would work on our old > machines, I thought of a different approach : > > Why not use the semi-standard good quality lcd panels with 1600x1200 (4:3) > format, and use some flicker/fixer scan doubler as converter ? > > Is there actually one, which would really work ? > > I mean, from the old 512x256 resolutions up to the 1024x768 would scale up > nicely, accepts BNC, SOG, and whatever we else use on our lovely boxes ? Some thoughts on this. Off the top of my head, I have the following requirments; 1280x1024, 640x480 (VGA, Amiga 3000, Atari TT030), and NTSC (8-bit computers and various video game systems). Another thought is this. Are 1600x1200 (4:3) LCD panels available new? All I see now are widescreen monitors. I should have purchased a 1280x1024 panel when they were easily available, but didn't, and I would need one that would work with both Sun and SGI. If I was smart, I'd simply remove the need, and am leaning more and more to doing just that. Zane From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Jan 22 14:09:50 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 13:09:50 -0700 Subject: scandoubler/flicker fixer etc. recommendations In-Reply-To: References: <4B59EA2B.2000804@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <4B5A060E.5070904@e-bbes.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Some thoughts on this. Off the top of my head, I have the following > requirments; 1280x1024, 640x480 (VGA, Amiga 3000, Atari TT030), and NTSC > (8-bit computers and various video game systems). And some HP 9000, some DEC Vaxstations, and some ... > Another thought is this. Are 1600x1200 (4:3) LCD panels available new? Just checked. Newegg offers 54 different models which are NOT widescreen. 2 models 1024x768 43 models 1280x1024 (that should be actually sufficient for our needs, right ?) 8 models 1600x1200 > All > I see now are widescreen monitors. > If I was smart, I'd simply remove the need, and am leaning more and more to > doing just that. ;-) Cheers From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Fri Jan 22 14:15:22 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 21:15:22 +0100 Subject: HP-IB Medusa chip In-Reply-To: References: <37B8308D5E724AF1964C1FB93A870DB7@xp1800> Message-ID: <0034991F0CD84624AB23B23C42F89E7D@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Christian Corti > Verzonden: vrijdag 22 januari 2010 19:14 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: RE: HP-IB Medusa chip > > On Fri, 22 Jan 2010, Rik Bos wrote: > > You should try the service manuals of the HP 1000F series > interface cards. > > Hmm, I've never seen a 1TL1 on any of the HP1000/MEF series > HP-IB boards, neither on the "Bus Interface" cards, nor on > the "Disk Interface" cards. > > > http://www.hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?hwdoc=662 > > Oh, that's an A-series card..., thanks for the pointer. > (But I really dislike hpmuseum's scans, they are barely readable) > > Christian Sorry I ment L /A-series the L series share some interface cards with the a-series. It was a quick answer to set you on the right way. About the scan it's better then nothing, and Jon is doing his best. -Rik From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 22 14:14:24 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 20:14:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VSV11 on pdp11 In-Reply-To: <4B58BBD4.1030801@softjar.se> from "Johnny Billquist" at Jan 21, 10 09:40:52 pm Message-ID: > > "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > > On Thu, 21 Jan 2010, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > > >> I'm curious though, what software took advantage of the VSV11? > > > > I know support exists for RSX-11M+, but that is about all I know. > > > > I have one 3rd party PDP-11 video card, and while most likely have RSX-11M > > software for it, I lack the means to actually hook it up to anything (or > > anything to hook it up to). > > I can fill in a few details. More later, if there is interest... > > The VS11 and VSV11 are graphic subsystems for the Unibus and Qbus (the > VS11 is a VSV11 and a bus adapter, ISTR). It is. The bus adapter is the generic DW11B, which can be used to link just about any Q-bus devices to a Unibus machine > > I have never played with one, but have some basic documentation that > mentions it. It is definitely supported under RSX. I've never worked with one either, although I think I have the printset somewhere. From what I rememebr the VS(V)11 had a processor built from 2901s in it (I forget how many of them). I also can't rememer if the microcode was in ROM or RAM (but I think the former). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 22 14:24:40 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 20:24:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Part Number for a MicroVAX II Fan In-Reply-To: <007501ca9ade$eff10dd0$cfd32970$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Jan 21, 10 09:16:01 pm Message-ID: > > I have a fan in my MicroVAX II which sometimes does not start without a > push, which means that I can't really put the machine back in its external > enclosure. I have been unable to find an illustrated parts breakdown to give > me a part number for the fan, so I was wondering if anyone here knows the > part number, or has a suggestion for how to get the fan to work properly Is there something special about this fan? Or will any fan of the right dimensions and operating voltage work? DEC rarely used strange fans (the 11/44 being the obvious exception!), so you might get a generic replacement that will drop straight in. As regards repairing the fan, I've done this many times (time I have plenty of, money to buy replacement fans I don't :-)). I can give you some pointers.. Firstly, with the machine off (and the fan power wires disconnected if possible), try rotating the fan by hand. Check there's no 'catch' at any point of the revolution, which may point to bad bearings. Most of the time a fan that will only start when flicked is a DC fan. The ones I am used to have a 2-phase stator, a permanent magnet rotor, and a simple circuit using a hall effect device (to sense the rotor position) and a few transistors (to switch the windings). A fan that will only start when flicked normally means that one widing isn't being driven, this is either because the power transsitor driving it is dead or the widing is open (most often the latter. The bigest problem is getting to it. Oftne you have to peel back or cut away the label on the fan housing to reveal either secrews or the end of the spidnle. If the latter, theyre's a circlp to remove, then assorted washers, and the rotor slides out the other side. If it's bad bearings you can now get to them (either to replace the ball races, or make new sleeve bearings as applicable). If it's an electronic fauly, yo may have to remove the stator lamination stack from the bearing tube to get to the control PCB -- it's often stuck in place. Gentle heating with a soldering iron may get it free. Then you can test the windings and transistors. It's not hard to rewind one of these stators if you have to, BTW. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 22 14:30:33 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 20:30:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VSV11 on pdp11 In-Reply-To: <20100122115748.GA5147@Update.UU.SE> from "Pontus Pihlgren" at Jan 22, 10 12:57:48 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 09:40:52PM +0100, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > The VS11 and VSV11 are graphic subsystems for the Unibus and Qbus > > (the VS11 is a VSV11 and a bus adapter, ISTR). > > I have what I think is called a VTV or VMV (consists of M7066, M7067, > M7068 and possibly something I don't remember). The M7066 is a UNIBUS to > Qbus converter. It fits in one 11/34 box and ran a system called > GAMMA-11. I think it might only be a vector system, do you know anything > about it? I repaired a DEC GAMMA-11 many years ago. The name comes from the fact that it was used with a medical imaging camera (I assume using gamma rays), the place I repaired it for was the vet. department of a university. >From what I remember, it was a 11/34 processor with a VS60 grpahics board set in it. It also had an RL11 linked to a couple of drives (that was the bit I had to repair, sorry, so I didn't get to investigate any of the 'interesting' hardware). There was certainly a DW11 Unibus to Q-bus interface, and some special Qbus cards to link to the camera. IIRC, there awas a 5.25" BA11 with 2 4-slot hex backplanes in it, one Unibus, the other Qbus. Confused me for a few minutes when I first saw it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 22 14:33:25 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 20:33:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-IB Medusa chip In-Reply-To: from "Christian Corti" at Jan 22, 10 02:25:03 pm Message-ID: > > I'm trying to repair a HP260/30 which fails self-test at step 9 (HP-IB > Programmed I/O test). It seems that the HP-IB interface card is the cause. > There's a 1TL1-0001 HP-IB controller IC and I'd like to know if it could > be replaced with a 1TL1-0006. The other ICs are all standard TTL (apart >From what I rememnber, they are very similar devices... Somethign is telling me that the -0001 needs a 'strange' supply voltage or bias signal, or something like that, the -0006 doesn't. Wether the pin on the latter chip is a no-connect I don't know. The HP98265 high=speed HPIB card for DIO machines uses one version of the Medusa, if you can track down the manual for that it might give you some help. I should be able to dig out a pinout for it if that's any help. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 22 15:24:18 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 13:24:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Museum for sale In-Reply-To: References: <201001221351.o0MDp2IF086860@amd64.ott.parse.com>, <4B59C29F.9050108@snarc.net> Message-ID: <20100122131936.L55680@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 22 Jan 2010, Zane H. Healy wrote: > It would be nice if this could go to a brick and mortor Museum. I think that it would be great to leave a bequest to fund the creating of the "Museum of bricks and mortars". Why do used bricks sell for so much more than new bricks? There should be a separate wing for the collection of military mortars, although the two sections could have ongoing demonstrations and competition. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Fri Jan 22 15:24:53 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 22:24:53 +0100 Subject: HP-IB Medusa chip In-Reply-To: References: from"Christian Corti" at Jan 22, 10 02:25:03 pm Message-ID: > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: vrijdag 22 januari 2010 21:33 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: HP-IB Medusa chip > > > > > I'm trying to repair a HP260/30 which fails self-test at > step 9 (HP-IB > > Programmed I/O test). It seems that the HP-IB interface > card is the cause. > > There's a 1TL1-0001 HP-IB controller IC and I'd like to know if it > > could be replaced with a 1TL1-0006. The other ICs are all > standard TTL > > (apart > > >From what I rememnber, they are very similar devices... Somethign is > telling me that the -0001 needs a 'strange' supply voltage or > bias signal, or something like that, the -0006 doesn't. > Wether the pin on the latter chip is a no-connect I don't know. > > The HP98265 high=speed HPIB card for DIO machines uses one > version of the Medusa, if you can track down the manual for > that it might give you some help. I should be able to dig out > a pinout for it if that's any help. > > -tony I'm not sure but I think the first versions of the medusa were SOS chips, (Silicon on Saphire). I know the 1000 L versions and the 500 series used SOS chips, I'm not sure for the HP 260's. -Rik From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Jan 22 15:17:13 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 19:17:13 -0200 Subject: scandoubler/flicker fixer etc. recommendations References: <4B59EA2B.2000804@e-bbes.com><00a401ca9b99$35778f90$0101a8c0@Alexandre> <4B5A01D1.3030902@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <01b601ca9baa$940c4c60$0101a8c0@Alexandre> >> There are cheap ones on www.dealextreme.com > Sorry, didn't find anything there which accepts BNC & SOG ... > and up to 1024x768 ... That's because they are cheap, but you can take a bunch of BNC female sockets and add to it. From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Jan 22 15:34:15 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 13:34:15 -0800 Subject: Museum for sale In-Reply-To: <00bb01ca9b90$561f53d0$025dfb70$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <201001221351.o0MDp2IF086860@amd64.ott.parse.com> <4B59C29F.9050108@snarc.net> <2b1f1f551001220904j61948d81u14f3d36547624b@mail.gmail.com> <00bb01ca9b90$561f53d0$025dfb70$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > From:Rob Jarratt > Sent: Friday, January 22, 2010 10:26 AM > My dictionary says a museum is "A building used for storing and exhibition > of objects...". Not much exhibiting going on in this "museum". I think a > museum is only a museum if the public can go there and see the physical > objects. I don't think a web site can be a museum, unless the "objects" are > software or other purely digital artefacts. Here's what the American Association of Museums, the accrediting organization for museums in the U. S., has to say about that: http://www.aam-us.org/pubs/mn/snapshot.cfm Anyone who studies museums in a serious way will quickly encounter a few hurdles. First, you can't really define museums; at least, there is no definition that can be used consistently to include or exclude organizations from the ranks. A number of such groups as the International Council of Museums have written definitions that they use to determine membership. Others, such as the federal Institute of Museum and Library Services, use a definition to determine funding eligibility. The definitions agree on a few key points: museums are educational in nature and are open to the public at least part of the year. But consensus quickly breaks down. Most definitions prominently feature preservation and exhibition of collections, but our survey reveals that a fifth of museums report that they do not own, care for or use collections. Most definitions cite museums as being nonprofit entities working in service to the public, although there is a small but growing number of for-profit museums in the U.S. Increasingly, there are museums that exist only in such virtual locations as Second Life. What does it mean for these museums to be "open to the public"? It continues, but that's pretty definitive right there. Speaking as the holder of a certificate in museology from the University of Washington, I would consider Robert Krten's pdp12.org to be an on-line museum, and not at all unique even within this community. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From evan at snarc.net Fri Jan 22 15:46:22 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 16:46:22 -0500 Subject: Museum for sale In-Reply-To: References: <201001221351.o0MDp2IF086860@amd64.ott.parse.com> <4B59C29F.9050108@snarc.net> <2b1f1f551001220904j61948d81u14f3d36547624b@mail.gmail.com> <00bb01ca9b90$561f53d0$025dfb70$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4B5A1CAE.9080002@snarc.net> >>> I would consider Robert Krten's pdp12.org to be an on-line museum I strongly disagree. An individual's personal web site about his private collection is not a "museum" of any kind. In my work, I often receive press releases from vendors to announce "partnerships" with other vendors. But when you read more closely, they're often not "partnerships" at all -- merely sales. If it were up to the marketing folks, every time Ford sells a car, they'd announce a partnership with Mr. Joe Smith. Note to everyone: call things what they are! Making a web site about your own stuff isn't a freaking museum. Geez. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Jan 22 15:49:38 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 21:49:38 -0000 Subject: Part Number for a MicroVAX II Fan In-Reply-To: References: <007501ca9ade$eff10dd0$cfd32970$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Jan 21, 10 09:16:01 pm Message-ID: <00bf01ca9bac$ccca4a50$665edef0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > Is there something special about this fan? Or will any fan of the right > dimensions and operating voltage work? DEC rarely used strange fans > (the > 11/44 being the obvious exception!), so you might get a generic > replacement that will drop straight in. I had thought of this, it has a connector that I have not seen before, I don't know what sort of fan I would need (voltage etc), I probably ought to take a look and see if I can replace it as you suggest. > > As regards repairing the fan, I've done this many times (time I have > plenty of, money to buy replacement fans I don't :-)). I can give you > some pointers.. > > Firstly, with the machine off (and the fan power wires disconnected if > possible), try rotating the fan by hand. Check there's no 'catch' at > any > point of the revolution, which may point to bad bearings. > > Most of the time a fan that will only start when flicked is a DC fan. > The ones I am used to have a 2-phase stator, a permanent magnet rotor, > and a simple circuit using a hall effect device (to sense the rotor > position) and a few transistors (to switch the windings). A fan that > will > only start when flicked normally means that one widing isn't being > driven, this is either because the power transsitor driving it is dead > or > the widing is open (most often the latter. > > The bigest problem is getting to it. Oftne you have to peel back or cut > away the label on the fan housing to reveal either secrews or the end > of > the spidnle. If the latter, theyre's a circlp to remove, then assorted > washers, and the rotor slides out the other side. If it's bad bearings > you can now get to them (either to replace the ball races, or make new > sleeve bearings as applicable). If it's an electronic fauly, yo may > have > to remove the stator lamination stack from the bearing tube to get to > the > control PCB -- it's often stuck in place. Gentle heating with a > soldering > iron may get it free. Then you can test the windings and transistors. > It's > not hard to rewind one of these stators if you have to, BTW. > > -tony I might first make sure I can get a replacement to work, then I can try repairing the original as you suggest. Thanks for the tips. Regards Rob From ragooman at comcast.net Fri Jan 22 16:03:21 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 22:03:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Museum for sale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <30086685.3408961264197801885.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> ----- Rich Alderson wrote: I would consider Robert Krten's pdp12.org to be an on-line museum, Such a collection is quite admirable and valuable. But using the term "online museum" just *continues* to depreciate the meaning of a museum. Anyone can make a website, take photos, copy documentation, etc, etc, and then call it an online museum. Then who's to say that you ever have to own the equipment anymore in the first place ? =Dan -- http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 22 16:18:31 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 17:18:31 -0500 Subject: Museum for sale In-Reply-To: <30086685.3408961264197801885.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> References: <30086685.3408961264197801885.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <17F60ADD-381F-492A-A98D-3778E62471C9@neurotica.com> On Jan 22, 2010, at 5:03 PM, Dan Roganti wrote: > Such a collection is quite admirable and valuable. > > But using the term "online museum" just *continues* to depreciate > the meaning of a museum. > > Anyone can make a website, take photos, copy documentation, etc, > etc, and then call it an online museum. Anyone with the resources required to do so, yes. Just like anyone with the required resources can acquire a building, fill it with stuff to show off, and have a real physical museum. One takes significantly more resources than the other, of course, but where do you draw the line? And why are we really all that worried about it? > Then who's to say that you ever have to own the equipment anymore > in the first place ? Is that really relevant? -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Jan 22 16:18:34 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 14:18:34 -0800 Subject: Museum for sale In-Reply-To: <30086685.3408961264197801885.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> References: <30086685.3408961264197801885.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dan Roganti > Sent: Friday, January 22, 2010 2:03 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Museum for sale > > > > ----- Rich Alderson wrote: > I would consider Robert Krten's pdp12.org to be an on-line museum, > > > Such a collection is quite admirable and valuable. > > But using the term "online museum" just *continues* to depreciate the > meaning of a museum. > > Anyone can make a website, take photos, copy documentation, etc, etc, > and then call it an online museum. > Then who's to say that you ever have to own the equipment anymore in > the first place ? > ...which is not what we're talking about here. These are real machines, most in operating condition. They are displayed with contextual material. The difference is that I don't have to get on an airplane. Think of it as teleconferencing without an PowerPoint. Yes, there may be times I *want* to get on an airplane and touch the machine myself - but how many brick-and-mortar museums let you touch the exhibits anyway? The point of some of the statements on this thread is that the concept of "museum" is being transformed (as are many longstanding definitions) by the technology we are in fact preserving! How delightfully self-referent.... -- Ian From js at cimmeri.com Fri Jan 22 16:24:53 2010 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 17:24:53 -0500 Subject: Museum for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B5A25B5.8030201@cimmeri.com> ----- Rich Alderson wrote: I would consider Robert Krten's pdp12.org to be an on-line museum, ----- Dan Roganti wrote: Such a collection is quite admirable and valuable. But using the term "online museum" just *continues* to depreciate the meaning of a museum. Anyone can make a website, take photos, copy documentation, etc, etc, and then call it an online museum. Then who's to say that you ever have to own the equipment anymore in the first place ? =Dan -- mu?se?um (my?-z???m) n. Abbr. mus. 1. A building, place, or institution devoted to the acquisition, conservation, study, exhibition, and educational interpretation of objects having scientific, historical, or artistic value. {American Heritage} By this def, Robert's home (a "place") and website qualify collectively as a modest museum. I think it's better to argue over the aspects of his museum -- such as quality, size, rank amongst others, etc -- rather than what word Robert has likely casually ascribed to his purpose. Evan, when I invite others into my house, I often joke, "welcome to the museum" or if I don't, they call it that. There's casual usages of words, then there's serious ones. John Singleton From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 22 16:30:12 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 14:30:12 -0800 Subject: Museum for sale In-Reply-To: References: , <30086685.3408961264197801885.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>, Message-ID: <4B59B674.18756.106CCFA@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Jan 2010 at 14:18, Ian King wrote: > The point of some of the statements on this thread is that the concept > of "museum" is being transformed (as are many longstanding > definitions) by the technology we are in fact preserving! How > delightfully self-referent.... Our machines are definitely changing our behavior and thought processes. When a young friend mentioned that he'd met someone, I assumed a face- to-face encounter. My mistake--it was an online experience. Apparently the distinction is headed for the scrap heap. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 22 16:32:54 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 17:32:54 -0500 Subject: Museum for sale In-Reply-To: <4B5A25B5.8030201@cimmeri.com> References: <4B5A25B5.8030201@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On Jan 22, 2010, at 5:24 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > mu?se?um (my?-z???m) n. Abbr. mus. 1. A building, place, or > institution devoted to the acquisition, conservation, study, > exhibition, and educational interpretation of objects having > scientific, historical, or artistic value. {American Heritage} > > By this def, Robert's home (a "place") and website qualify > collectively as a modest museum. I think it's better to argue > over the aspects of his museum -- such as quality, size, rank > amongst others, etc -- rather than what word Robert has likely > casually ascribed to his purpose. We're squabbling over the definition of terms which are changing over time. Web sites didn't exist when the definition above was written. Things change! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 22 17:51:19 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 18:51:19 -0500 Subject: road trip to the MARCH museum, was Re: Museum for sale In-Reply-To: <4B5A1CAE.9080002@snarc.net> References: <201001221351.o0MDp2IF086860@amd64.ott.parse.com> <4B59C29F.9050108@snarc.net> <2b1f1f551001220904j61948d81u14f3d36547624b@mail.gmail.com> <00bb01ca9b90$561f53d0$025dfb70$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> <4B5A1CAE.9080002@snarc.net> Message-ID: <166F4E88-A642-40F7-8E93-C4778AA79F51@neurotica.com> On Jan 22, 2010, at 4:46 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>> I would consider Robert Krten's pdp12.org to be an on-line museum > > I strongly disagree. An individual's personal web site about his > private collection is not a "museum" of any kind. Sure it is. Look at it from the users' standpoint. It's nowhere near as big of an experience as an afternoon spent in a real physical museum (like the MARCH museum in NJ), but it's definitely worthwhile and can serve at least part of the same purpose. > Note to everyone: call things what they are! Making a web site > about your own stuff isn't a freaking museum. Geez. Perhaps we need a different term for online museums. ;) About real museums...I've not really had a spare few minutes to mention this, but a couple of months ago I had the pleasure of visiting the MARCH museum in NJ. I was on a road trip to retrieve a (non-vintage) mainframe from Boston for my employer, and had the opportunity to help the MARCH crew relocate part of a Burroughs L7000 system from Delaware to their facility in NJ, since I was heading through that area with a mostly-empty truck. Unfortunately Bill was sick that day and was unable to help me load the Burroughs system, but I got it done myself, and the museum folk threw me a few bucks to help with the fuel expenses. The L7000's console was in the basement and I couldn't get it up the stairs myself, so that stayed behind until enough manpower is available to move it. It's pretty heavy. The main unit, a wheeled cabinet-like structure with a formica (I think) top that forms a sort of table, contains a big stack of boards and two of the most unusual hard disk drives I've ever seen. That part was already upstairs and only needed a little bit of hefting to load into my liftgate-equipped truck. Sridhar took a train down and met me at the museum, where we hung out with Evan for most of the night. The three of us offloaded the L7000's main unit and got it situated in a holding area...a room so full of goodies that I could barely concentrate on what I was doing. Evan then gave me a truly fantastic multi-hour tour of the facility. I got to touch the "holy grail" of my world, a Straight-8, as well as another machine that I've always been fascinated with, an IBM System 38. I also got to type BASIC statements on a chicklet-keyboard Commodore PET, which was, well, interesting! ;) I'm absolutely thrilled to have touched a Straight-8. I've drooled over that machine for, oh, almost 30 years. There's also a pristine PDP-11/20 there, which is also a "biggie" for me. I really enjoyed seeing that. The guys are running a really nice operation up there, and it's definitely worth a trip to see it. I was kinda rushed on my trip, and was a bit sleep-deprived while I was there so I didn't get to spend as much time as I would've liked. When finances permit I hope to spend a few days up there and help them get some of their DEC stuff beaten into shape. (that is, if I can actually convince Evan that I know my way around DEC stuff! ;) *poke!*) As a brief aside, a few other interesting things happened on that trip. First, I picked up an IBM System/36 model 5360 (the big one) from a small company in Atlanta and delivered it to Sridhar in NY. I have a 5360 as well, so when we have time we'll bring them up and compare notes. Next, I acquired a DEC PDP-14, which I hope to take some pictures of soon. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From useddec at gmail.com Fri Jan 22 21:47:55 2010 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 21:47:55 -0600 Subject: DEC RF drives Message-ID: <624966d61001221947t206bf63cjd2aa9c41c8376887@mail.gmail.com> I just unloaded from storage several more boxes of toys that I don't need. 1 From useddec at gmail.com Fri Jan 22 22:05:07 2010 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 22:05:07 -0600 Subject: DEC RF drives and a few misc Message-ID: <624966d61001222005q1641afbu3f746597c099da46@mail.gmail.com> Sorry about the previous message. I just unloaded from storage several boxes of drives that I don't need. 8 RF31T $50 4 RF35 50 1 RF71 50 2 RF72 75 10 RF73 100 The following are field service spares sealed in static bags I purchased from a maintence company. Feel free to make an offer. Tandon TM-100-2a floppy (2) TM-502 (1) Magnetic Per. RR8B1A Shugart SA-712 HP 35470-20150 Will sell or possibly trade. Located in Illinois. If you need anything else or have interest in these, please contact me off list. Thanks, Paul From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Jan 23 00:20:55 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 00:20:55 -0600 Subject: scandoubler/flicker fixer etc. recommendations In-Reply-To: References: <4B59EA2B.2000804@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <4B5A9547.6080002@oldskool.org> On 1/22/2010 1:49 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Some thoughts on this. Off the top of my head, I have the following > requirments; 1280x1024, 640x480 (VGA, Amiga 3000, Atari TT030), and NTSC > (8-bit computers and various video game systems). NTSC input on LCD monitors is usually filtered a LOT (for noise) and results in a 1-2 frame delay and is usually not able to be turned off. There are a small set of scan converters that take analog input and simulate what it's supposed to look like via digital output (ie. simulating scanlines). The market for these are early game systems (NES, genesis, etc.) but I have been pleased with the results for my classic computers as well. Here is a page dedicated to discussing them: http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/ > Another thought is this. Are 1600x1200 (4:3) LCD panels available new? All Not for much longer, but that's not a problem: I have a 1920x1200 panel and it is a simple matter to tell the monitor to preserve aspect ratio. I have taken 800x600 input and displayed it perfectly 4:3 centered in a 1600x1200 area. Identical display to a 1600x1200 monitor. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Jan 23 00:26:23 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 00:26:23 -0600 Subject: scandoubler/flicker fixer etc. recommendations In-Reply-To: <4B5A9547.6080002@oldskool.org> References: <4B59EA2B.2000804@e-bbes.com> <4B5A9547.6080002@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4B5A968F.1040303@oldskool.org> On 1/23/2010 12:20 AM, Jim Leonard wrote: > Not for much longer, but that's not a problem: I have a 1920x1200 panel > and it is a simple matter to tell the monitor to preserve aspect ratio. > I have taken 800x600 input and displayed it perfectly 4:3 centered in a > 1600x1200 area. Identical display to a 1600x1200 monitor. I meant to make clear that my 800x600 input was doubled nicely to 1600x1200, not a tiny window centered, nor fullscreen-stretched to the full 16:9 1920x1200. In other words, it does the correct thing. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Jan 23 00:28:02 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 00:28:02 -0600 Subject: Museum for sale In-Reply-To: <00bb01ca9b90$561f53d0$025dfb70$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <201001221351.o0MDp2IF086860@amd64.ott.parse.com> <4B59C29F.9050108@snarc.net> <2b1f1f551001220904j61948d81u14f3d36547624b@mail.gmail.com> <00bb01ca9b90$561f53d0$025dfb70$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4B5A96F2.80403@oldskool.org> On 1/22/2010 12:25 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I don't think a web site can be a museum, unless the "objects" are > software or other purely digital artefacts. I would disagree, being a software collector. Some of the historical relevance of a piece is the packaging and other materials that come with the software. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Jan 23 00:33:31 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 00:33:31 -0600 Subject: Wired Article, On Jan 19, 1983 Apple unveils Lisa In-Reply-To: <1debc0351001201238x5804e6b3k67ec5427c116ef17@mail.gmail.com> References: <01CA991F.155E06C0@MSE_D03> <985684.38456.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <6dbe3c381001191345t48636cf6r23552f3385f882d8@mail.gmail.com> <1debc0351001201238x5804e6b3k67ec5427c116ef17@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B5A983B.1000307@oldskool.org> On 1/20/2010 2:38 PM, Marcin Wichary wrote: >> > Neither Windows 1 nor 2 sported proportional typefaces yet, either, which > contributed to them feeling like "text" interfaces. That is wholly incorrect. v1 had them from the very beginning. http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2428/3635572965_c18089d964_o.png is one such example where you can see that Write has a proportional font. I'm not defending Windows by any means, just correcting a statement. My favorite 808x environment that runs on top of DOS is DesqView (engineering marvel, that) with Geoworks Ensemble a very close second. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From mwichary at gmail.com Sat Jan 23 00:55:46 2010 From: mwichary at gmail.com (Marcin Wichary) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 22:55:46 -0800 Subject: Wired Article, On Jan 19, 1983 Apple unveils Lisa In-Reply-To: <4B5A983B.1000307@oldskool.org> References: <01CA991F.155E06C0@MSE_D03> <985684.38456.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <6dbe3c381001191345t48636cf6r23552f3385f882d8@mail.gmail.com> <1debc0351001201238x5804e6b3k67ec5427c116ef17@mail.gmail.com> <4B5A983B.1000307@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <1debc0351001222255p6a18dda4j4110ba16091a69bd@mail.gmail.com> > > Neither Windows 1 nor 2 sported proportional typefaces yet, either, which >> contributed to them feeling like "text" interfaces. >> > > That is wholly incorrect. v1 had them from the very beginning. > http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2428/3635572965_c18089d964_o.png is one > such example where you can see that Write has a proportional font. > You?re correct. I should have clarified that I meant the window chrome/UI, not the content fonts in applications. Mac OS?s and other GUIs default system fonts were typically proportional, which helped them distance themselves from text-based UIs. Windows sat uncomfortably in the middle until v3. :) Marcin From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 23 01:44:35 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 23:44:35 -0800 Subject: Wired Article, On Jan 19, 1983 Apple unveils Lisa In-Reply-To: <1debc0351001222255p6a18dda4j4110ba16091a69bd@mail.gmail.com> References: <01CA991F.155E06C0@MSE_D03>, <4B5A983B.1000307@oldskool.org>, <1debc0351001222255p6a18dda4j4110ba16091a69bd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B5A3863.15082.3025B4D@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Jan 2010 at 22:55, Marcin Wichary wrote: > You?re correct. I should have clarified that I meant the window > chrome/UI, not the content fonts in applications. Mac OS?s and other > GUIs default system fonts were typically proportional, which helped > them distance themselves from text-based UIs. Windows sat > uncomfortably in the middle until v3. :) Something I've wondered about is if there were *any* character-mode (text) display cards produced with proportional spacing capability. Wasn't NEC supposed to have a display chip to do that? (not the 7220). Hercules made a card that could handle various font widths and heights, but it was still a monospaced display. Creating and maintaining a graphic display for text requires more work than a text display, so there might have been some motivation. Cheers, Chuck From enrico.lazzerini at tiscali.it Fri Jan 22 12:17:21 2010 From: enrico.lazzerini at tiscali.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 19:17:21 +0100 Subject: PROMAC 2A Eprom Programmer Message-ID: Hello at all, i have the programmer from many years in a box. Its firmware make work it in automatic way so it is not possible (or almost this is aall i know) to drive it from its buttons. When i power on it, it trys to send somenting via its serial RS232 to the host computer. I checked the serial port for a null modem way to work and if i load hyperterminal i see some unknow characters on the screen, and if i push a key on the keyboard i see that something goes via serial to the programmer. If i try to change the serial speed or character lenghts or its parity the characters on the screen not become intellegible. At the end if i try to load its original DOS program (not in a window of windows XP, but making a DOS 3.3 boot!) after done the check i said, neither the DOS software can drive the eprom programmer. Here all information i found across internet: http://elazzerini.interfree.it/Promac%20Model%202A.htm Thanks for any suggestions. Enrico From jws at jwsss.com Fri Jan 22 12:44:26 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 10:44:26 -0800 Subject: Museum for sale In-Reply-To: <00bb01ca9b90$561f53d0$025dfb70$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <201001221351.o0MDp2IF086860@amd64.ott.parse.com> <4B59C29F.9050108@snarc.net> <2b1f1f551001220904j61948d81u14f3d36547624b@mail.gmail.com> <00bb01ca9b90$561f53d0$025dfb70$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4B59F20A.3080601@jwsss.com> On 1/22/2010 10:25 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > My dictionary says a museum is "A building used for storing and exhibition > of objects...". Not much exhibiting going on in this "museum". I think a > museum is only a museum if the public can go there and see the physical > objects. I don't think a web site can be a museum, unless the "objects" are > software or other purely digital artefacts. > > Regards > > Rob > > I know of a number of people who have collections such as this that refer to them as a museum. I don't think the fact that you have to know them, or arrange for admission by appointment with them to view the artifacts is a problem that makes the term incorrect here. And as pointed out elsewhere in the thread, the artifact information is actually available on a website, which is more than I can say for a lot of museums. Many art collections are this way as are collections of antiquarian books, the latter which I guess could be called a library. Each collector has their own perspective on what is unique about their collection, and whether it is rare, and what the significance is vs. just a random selection of parts. As to the definition above, I do not know that that "exhibition" means that the public can just walk in. One is required to purchase a ticket to most museums now, and knowing the person with the collection is not a lot different of a restriction than having to buy a ticket. From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Jan 22 17:13:20 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 18:13:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: scandoubler/flicker fixer etc. recommendations In-Reply-To: References: <4B59EA2B.2000804@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jan 2010, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> I mean, from the old 512x256 resolutions up to the 1024x768 would scale up >> nicely, accepts BNC, SOG, and whatever we else use on our lovely boxes ? > > Some thoughts on this. Off the top of my head, I have the following > requirments; 1280x1024, 640x480 (VGA, Amiga 3000, Atari TT030), and NTSC > (8-bit computers and various video game systems). I've had great results from the Highway 100 scan converter. It's a bit pricey, but produces a rock-solid scan-doubled image from my Amiga 2000 in interlaced 640x480 mode. It even supports the somewhat (well, very) oddball color output from an Apple IIgs. > Another thought is this. Are 1600x1200 (4:3) LCD panels available new? All > I see now are widescreen monitors. I should have purchased a 1280x1024 > panel when they were easily available, but didn't, and I would need one that > would work with both Sun and SGI. Unfortunately, 4:3 LCD displays in sizes much above 17" are simply not manufactured anymore. The vendors have decided that all anyone wants to do on a computer is watch video content, I guess. Probably need to watch eBay. Steve -- From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 23 11:57:26 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 09:57:26 -0800 Subject: scandoubler/flicker fixer etc. recommendations In-Reply-To: References: <4B59EA2B.2000804@e-bbes.com>, , Message-ID: <4B5AC806.24737.32C502@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Jan 2010 at 18:13, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> Unfortunately, 4:3 LCD displays in sizes much above 17" are simply not > manufactured anymore. The vendors have decided that all anyone wants > to do on a computer is watch video content, I guess. Probably need to > watch eBay. Unfortunately, the whole affair is a ripoff of epic proportions. Put a 20" 4:3 display next to a 22" wide-screen display and the 4:3 model looks positively gigantic. Since screen size is measured by the diagonal, making the screen wider than high drastically inflates that number. A screen that's 5 inches tall by 19.5 inches wide is a 20" display. You can still get 4:3 displays; see the NEC LCD195VX+ for example. NEC also sells color-corrected displays in 4:3 format, such as the LCD2090UXi-BK-SV. You're probably not going to find these at your local Wally's World. --Chuck From steve at radiorobots.com Sat Jan 23 12:53:01 2010 From: steve at radiorobots.com (steve stutman) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 13:53:01 -0500 Subject: Museum for sale In-Reply-To: <4B59F20A.3080601@jwsss.com> References: <201001221351.o0MDp2IF086860@amd64.ott.parse.com> <4B59C29F.9050108@snarc.net> <2b1f1f551001220904j61948d81u14f3d36547624b@mail.gmail.com> <00bb01ca9b90$561f53d0$025dfb70$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> <4B59F20A.3080601@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4B5B458D.8050606@radiorobots.com> Good comments. Why not think of a museum as a (somewhat ordered) collection of real objects that may be publicly viewed in one fashion or another ? Phenomenology notwithstanding, the existence of a museum does not depend upon my physical presence within. Steve jim s wrote: > > > On 1/22/2010 10:25 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> My dictionary says a museum is "A building used for storing and >> exhibition >> of objects...". Not much exhibiting going on in this "museum". I think a >> museum is only a museum if the public can go there and see the physical >> objects. I don't think a web site can be a museum, unless the >> "objects" are >> software or other purely digital artefacts. >> >> Regards >> >> Rob >> >> > I know of a number of people who have collections such as this that > refer to them as a museum. > > I don't think the fact that you have to know them, or arrange for > admission by appointment with them > to view the artifacts is a problem that makes the term incorrect here. > > And as pointed out elsewhere in the thread, the artifact information > is actually available on a website, > which is more than I can say for a lot of museums. Many art > collections are this way as are collections > of antiquarian books, the latter which I guess could be called a library. > > Each collector has their own perspective on what is unique about their > collection, and whether it is > rare, and what the significance is vs. just a random selection of parts. > > As to the definition above, I do not know that that "exhibition" means > that the public can just walk in. > One is required to purchase a ticket to most museums now, and knowing > the person with the collection > is not a lot different of a restriction than having to buy a ticket. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 23 12:47:14 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 18:47:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Part Number for a MicroVAX II Fan In-Reply-To: <00bf01ca9bac$ccca4a50$665edef0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Jan 22, 10 09:49:38 pm Message-ID: > > > Is there something special about this fan? Or will any fan of the right > > dimensions and operating voltage work? DEC rarely used strange fans > > (the > > 11/44 being the obvious exception!), so you might get a generic > > replacement that will drop straight in. > > I had thought of this, it has a connector that I have not seen before, I > don't know what sort of fan I would need (voltage etc), I probably ought to > take > a look and see if I can replace it as you suggest. Is this connector fixed on he fan chassis, or on the end of a piece of cable? If the latter, you can probalby find a way to move the connector and/or cable to the new fan. Most built-in connectors on fans are just the solder tags that you could solder the power leads too. There ware sockets made for some fans that would push onto these (ot you could use small faston terminals -- DEC were fond of this trick). Are there any marking at all on the old Fan? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 23 14:12:25 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 20:12:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Znner diode data Message-ID: The quick versions : Does anyone know of a book or website which gives brief characteristics of zemer diodes? The ones we use in Europe tend to have the zener voltage given as a suffix to the part number, but the US ones have 1Nxxxx numbers which tell me very little. The actual device I am looking for info on is a 1N5365 , but knowing where to look in future would be useful. The long version : I've got an HP2631 printer (wide carriage dot matrix with an HPIB interface). When I extracted it from my junk pile, it gave a power-on error (according to the service manual on hpmuseum.net) that was a RAM error. After pulling the case and CPU board, I was amused to see the RAMs were our old friends, 2114s. So I desoldered the RAM that the error code said had failed and fitted a new one. Next time I ppowered on, all hell broke loose. The carriage rammed into the right side plate and the carriage motor breaker tripped. Then the 2 fuses on the PSU board for the +/-20V rails blew, and the status LEDs for the +/-12V regulated supply rails went out. THe last is not too suprising, those rails are regualted down from the 20V ones. Replacement fuses blew at swtich-on Quick checks have indicated that both carriage motor drive transsitors (a 2N5844 and a 2N5886) are shorted all ways round. So is the overvoltage protection zneer between the -20V line and ground -- this is the 1N5365 I mentioned. I obviosuly need to replace these parts -- after finding out what caused the transistors to fail. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jan 23 14:18:29 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 12:18:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Wired Article, On Jan 19, 1983 Apple unveils Lisa In-Reply-To: <4B5A3863.15082.3025B4D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <01CA991F.155E06C0@MSE_D03>, <4B5A983B.1000307@oldskool.org>, <1debc0351001222255p6a18dda4j4110ba16091a69bd@mail.gmail.com> <4B5A3863.15082.3025B4D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100123121545.I92073@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 22 Jan 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Something I've wondered about is if there were *any* character-mode > (text) display cards produced with proportional spacing capability. > Wasn't NEC supposed to have a display chip to do that? (not the > 7220). > Hercules made a card that could handle various font widths and > heights, but it was still a monospaced display. > Creating and maintaining a graphic display for text requires more > work than a text display, so there might have been some motivation. Certainly, in software, not in text mode.. The regular Hercules MGA could do 720 x 348? graphics, and there were drivers for Ventura, Windows 3.10, PCPaint, etc. From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Jan 23 14:30:30 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 14:30:30 -0600 Subject: scandoubler/flicker fixer etc. recommendations In-Reply-To: References: <4B59EA2B.2000804@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <4B5B5C66.9000802@oldskool.org> On 1/22/2010 5:13 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > I've had great results from the Highway 100 scan converter. It's a bit > pricey, but produces a rock-solid scan-doubled image from my Amiga 2000 > in interlaced 640x480 mode. It even supports the somewhat (well, very) > oddball color output from an Apple IIgs. Where can I find more information on this converter? I have a need for analog capture of an Apple IIGS at highest quality. A cursory google of "highway 100 converter" was not helpful... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From jdbryan at acm.org Sat Jan 23 14:32:48 2010 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 15:32:48 -0500 Subject: Znner diode data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Saturday, January 23, 2010 at 20:12, Tony Duell wrote: > Does anyone know of a book or website which gives brief characteristics > of zemer diodes? > > The ones we use in Europe tend to have the zener voltage given as a suffix > to the part number, but the US ones have 1Nxxxx numbers which tell me > very little. ON Semi and Fairchild Semi probably produce most of the remaining 1N-series diodes: http://www.onsemi.com/ http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ (ON is the ex-Motorola Semi division.) > The actual device I am looking for info on is a 1N5365 , but knowing > where to look in future would be useful. ON has a datasheet available for that one. -- Dave From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jan 23 14:38:04 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 15:38:04 -0500 Subject: Museums Message-ID: > Apparently the distinction is headed for the scrap heap. Interesting that "scrap heap" is mentioned. A real museum should have some formal mechanism so stuff does not end up in the scrap heap after the museum fails. Failure can be the loss of funding, loss of space, death of "the main guy", divorce, apathy, or a million other reasons. Recall about a week or so ago I had an informal survey concerning wills, and taking care of collections after the collectors have passed. Results were better than last time - barely. Two. I guess this means there are going to be a lot of Straight-8s and Apple Is scrapped in the next 20-30 years. -- Will From halarewich at gmail.com Sat Jan 23 14:53:33 2010 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 12:53:33 -0800 Subject: Znner diode data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6d6501091001231253h252c7ba9j3d7aecb615b0235f@mail.gmail.com> heres the info on it http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/product.do?id=1N5365B data sheet http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/1N5333B-D.PDF On 1/23/10, J. David Bryan wrote: > > On Saturday, January 23, 2010 at 20:12, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Does anyone know of a book or website which gives brief characteristics > > of zemer diodes? > > > > The ones we use in Europe tend to have the zener voltage given as a > suffix > > to the part number, but the US ones have 1Nxxxx numbers which tell me > > very little. > > ON Semi and Fairchild Semi probably produce most of the remaining 1N-series > diodes: > > http://www.onsemi.com/ > > http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ > > (ON is the ex-Motorola Semi division.) > > > > The actual device I am looking for info on is a 1N5365 , but knowing > > where to look in future would be useful. > > ON has a datasheet available for that one. > > -- Dave > > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Jan 23 14:47:58 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 20:47:58 +0000 Subject: Znner diode data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B5B607E.3080009@dunnington.plus.com> On 23/01/2010 20:12, Tony Duell wrote: > The quick versions : > > Does anyone know of a book or website which gives brief characteristics > of zemer diodes? > The actual device I am looking for info on is a 1N5365 , but knowing > where to look in future would be useful. That's a 36V 5W zener. I usually look things like that up on Farnell's website -- just go to http://uk.farnell.com/ and type the part number into the Product Search box :-) Or look in the Farnell paper catalogue, if you have a copy. I've also got a set of three 1997 Japanese semiconductor data books; one is called The Diode Manual, another is The Transistor Manual and the other is called The FET Manual. I occasionally find them useful becasue they list lots of Japanese type numbers (not very recent ones, obviously). I frequently find them a bit frustrating because all the text is in Japanese (the numbers and operating parameter are mostly in Roman numerals and symbols though), but that's why they were so cheap (?1 for the set, IIRC). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Jan 23 15:12:00 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 13:12:00 -0800 Subject: Znner diode data References: Message-ID: <4B5B661F.9846BB8B@cs.ubc.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > > Does anyone know of a book or website which gives brief characteristics > of zemer diodes? > > The ones we use in Europe tend to have the zener voltage given as a suffix > to the part number, but the US ones have 1Nxxxx numbers which tell me > very little. > > The actual device I am looking for info on is a 1N5365 , but knowing > where to look in future would be useful. The 1N5365 is a 36V, 5W zener. I found it listed only in Motorola databooks, others may not have produced that series. More detailed specs available if necessary. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Jan 23 15:22:46 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 13:22:46 -0800 Subject: 'thyristor' definition References: Message-ID: <4B5B68A6.68AEDF0D@cs.ubc.ca> Re earlier discussion, while looking up the zener, I passed across Motorola's section on thyristors: For Motorola at least, they treat thyristors as a class of devices ("triggerred switches"), including both SCRs and TRIACs. It is somewhat ambiguous in the writing as to whether they consider DIACS, UJTs, PUTs, etc. to be thyristors, but they are all listed and described in the thyristors section. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 23 16:06:55 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 14:06:55 -0800 Subject: Wired Article, On Jan 19, 1983 Apple unveils Lisa In-Reply-To: <20100123121545.I92073@shell.lmi.net> References: <01CA991F.155E06C0@MSE_D03>, <4B5A3863.15082.3025B4D@cclist.sydex.com>, <20100123121545.I92073@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B5B027F.12126.1172BE5@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Jan 2010 at 12:18, Fred Cisin wrote: > Certainly, in software, not in text mode.. > The regular Hercules MGA could do 720 x 348? graphics, and there were > drivers for Ventura, Windows 3.10, PCPaint, etc. No, I was thinking of the Intel 82730/82731 combination. Prop spacing, super/sub script, double-width characters, etc. I've never run across a system with those as part of the display electronics, however, but I remember hearing about the chipset from my Intel Sales guy, "Fast Eddie". --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Jan 23 16:37:25 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 14:37:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: scandoubler/flicker fixer etc. recommendations In-Reply-To: from Steven Hirsch at "Jan 22, 10 06:13:20 pm" Message-ID: <201001232237.o0NMbP1s017360@floodgap.com> > I've had great results from the Highway 100 scan converter. It's a bit > pricey, but produces a rock-solid scan-doubled image from my Amiga 2000 in > interlaced 640x480 mode. It even supports the somewhat (well, very) > oddball color output from an Apple IIgs. Steve, is this the one you're talking about? http://www.converters.tv/products/pal_to_vga/100.html -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The cost of living has not adversely affected its popularity. -------------- From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Jan 23 17:25:56 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 23:25:56 -0000 Subject: Part Number for a MicroVAX II Fan In-Reply-To: References: <00bf01ca9bac$ccca4a50$665edef0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Jan 22, 10 09:49:38 pm Message-ID: <002901ca9c83$6b44f2d0$41ced870$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 23 January 2010 18:47 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Part Number for a MicroVAX II Fan > > > > > > Is there something special about this fan? Or will any fan of the > right > > > dimensions and operating voltage work? DEC rarely used strange fans > > > (the > > > 11/44 being the obvious exception!), so you might get a generic > > > replacement that will drop straight in. > > > > I had thought of this, it has a connector that I have not seen > before, I > > don't know what sort of fan I would need (voltage etc), I probably > ought to > > take > > a look and see if I can replace it as you suggest. > > Is this connector fixed on he fan chassis, or on the end of a piece of > cable? If the latter, you can probalby find a way to move the connector > and/or cable to the new fan. > > Most built-in connectors on fans are just the solder tags that you > could > solder the power leads too. There ware sockets made for some fans that > would push onto these (ot you could use small faston terminals -- DEC > were fond of this trick). > > Are there any marking at all on the old Fan? > > -tony Finally got round to getting the fan out. It is a 120mm fan, marked as follows: Nidec Torin TA450DC Model A 31728-10 10 V.D.C 30 AMP The only readily available DC fans I can find are 12V, guessing these would run at a reduced speed compared to the ones I have in the machine now, but would probably otherwise work OK. What do you reckon? If this would work I might replace them both with quieter fans (not sure what the flow rate of these fans is any idea? The connector is difficult to describe. The fan has two tags that stick out and the cable has a plastic block on the end with a socket that fits the two tags. Thanks Rob From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Jan 23 17:52:30 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 15:52:30 -0800 Subject: Stripping green soldermask? coating from pc-boards. In-Reply-To: <002901ca9c83$6b44f2d0$41ced870$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: The exact term is slipping my mind, but I have a PC-board I want to scan the traces on and see about making a transparency of to make some single sided pc-boards of, but am kind of stuck at how to strip the green coating off of it. From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Jan 23 17:40:49 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 15:40:49 -0800 Subject: Free in Seattle - SGI Personal Iris 4D/35 & Iris File Message-ID: <4B5B8901.10607@mail.msu.edu> Local pickup only, these things are huge. I have a 4D/35 in non-working condition. It doesn't power on but is complete (well, ok, it's lacking drives and sleds) with 64mb memory and if I recall, a full complement of video hardware (GR 1.2, bitplane, z-buffer, turbo.) I can take it apart again if you want to know for 100% sure. It's in decent cosmetic condition, but it could use some TLC. A fun machine when working, especially if you want to play around with older versions of IRIX. Comes with an Iris File (external SCSI enclosure the same size as the Iris itself). Again, no drives or sleds. I'm in the Seattle area. If you want it, come and get it in the next week or it's off to RE-PC in Tukwila... Thanks, Josh From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Jan 23 18:47:35 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 18:47:35 -0600 Subject: starting my relay computer project In-Reply-To: <4B5AD365.9070605@axeside.co.uk> References: , <4B5AD365.9070605@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: Phillip, Thanks for the lead on the book, and no I have not seen it. The Harry Porter relay computer and others seem to all use Zuse 4PDT relay design for the alu. If you have not been to his web site, take a look at the youtube, It appears that there are a lot of us relay computer guys out there (when the you tube finishes there are related links presented). Somewhat related, and also my interest, are the marble machines that do logic. Of course there is the Edmund Scientific NIM plastic 3 bit machine, analog computers and dont forget Martin Gardner and the deck of cards paper computers. There is more to classic computing than collecting microprocessor based machines. Thanks again, Randy > Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:45:57 +0000 > From: philip at axeside.co.uk > To: > Subject: Re: starting my relay computer project > > Randy Dawson wrote: > > > After years and years of interest in this, way back to the sci am > > 'Ameteur Scientist' articles, I am beginning this project. > > > > I have a unique and amazing resource, I work for a semiconductor > > company in test engineering, and we use tons of those little TO-5 > > Teledyne relays in our IC test boards. I have scavenged >1000 or so > > for the project, so its not going to be a giant machine like Harry > > Porters: > > Have you read "The Computer - My Life" by Konrad Zuse (New York: > Springer Verlag, 1993. ISBN 0-387-56453-5)? Mostly historical / > autobiographical, but some good technical bits on the evolution of relay > logic as Zuse's designs got more mature. Interesting how the number of > relays per bit he needed in his adder circuit got less and less... > > Philip. _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390708/direct/01/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Jan 23 20:13:07 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 18:13:07 -0800 Subject: starting my relay computer project References: , <4B5AD365.9070605@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <4B5BACB4.7A731B4A@cs.ubc.ca> Randy Dawson wrote: > > > Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:45:57 +0000 > > From: philip at axeside.co.uk > > To: > > Subject: Re: starting my relay computer project > > > > Have you read "The Computer - My Life" by Konrad Zuse (New York: > > Springer Verlag, 1993. ISBN 0-387-56453-5)? Mostly historical / > > autobiographical, but some good technical bits on the evolution of relay > > logic as Zuse's designs got more mature. Interesting how the number of > > relays per bit he needed in his adder circuit got less and less... > > Phillip, > > Thanks for the lead on the book, and no I have not seen it. > The Harry Porter relay computer and others seem to all use Zuse 4PDT relay design for the alu. > > If you have not been to his web site, take a look at the youtube, It appears that there are a lot of us relay computer guys out there (when the you tube finishes there are related links presented). > > Somewhat related, and also my interest, are the marble machines that do logic. Of course there is the Edmund Scientific NIM plastic 3 bit machine, analog computers and dont forget Martin Gardner and the deck of cards paper computers. > > There is more to classic computing than collecting microprocessor based machines. A relay computer is something I too would like to build if ever I were to come across enough suitable relays. A couple of years ago I fleshed out the Simon design and wrote it up, as well as breadboarding a small portion of it. (http://people.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/simon/index.html) Ultimately, I felt it would be unsatisfying to implement it fully, due to it's limitations. Funny how the adder circuit keeps coming up, one of those perennial topics in computing. I too worked on optimising it. (http://people.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/simon/imp.html#ALU). Later I saw Zuse's design and noted that I had -almost- arrived at the same design. The number of contacts and basic circuit were identical, but I missed one final optimisation of flipping some contacts in the sum circuit so the relays required would be 4-pole & 4-pole rather than 5 & 3 (the former tending to be a little more practical in the real world, of course). From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jan 23 20:47:03 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 19:47:03 -0700 Subject: starting my relay computer project In-Reply-To: <4B5BACB4.7A731B4A@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <4B5AD365.9070605@axeside.co.uk> <4B5BACB4.7A731B4A@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4B5BB4A7.8040707@jetnet.ab.ca> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Funny how the adder circuit keeps coming up, one of those perennial topics in > computing. I too worked on optimising it. > (http://people.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/simon/imp.html#ALU). Later I saw Zuse's > design and noted that I had -almost- arrived at the same design. The number of > contacts and basic circuit were identical, but I missed one final optimisation > of flipping some contacts in the sum circuit so the relays required would be > 4-pole& 4-pole rather than 5& 3 (the former tending to be a little more > practical in the real world, of course). > What I found more amazing, was his mechanical memory/relays in the first proto-type machines. http://user.cs.tu-berlin.de/~zuse/Konrad_Zuse/en/rechner_z1.html From ragooman at comcast.net Sat Jan 23 21:00:47 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 22:00:47 -0500 Subject: Wills....Re: Museums In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B5BB7DF.2070103@comcast.net> William Donzelli wrote: > Recall about a week or so ago I had an informal survey concerning > wills, and taking care of collections after the collectors have > passed. Results were better than last time - barely. Two. > > I guess this means there are going to be a lot of Straight-8s and > Apple Is scrapped in the next 20-30 years. > If you make a will, how do you guarantee to have your collection entrusted to a museum and prevent your collection, which is also considered assets in probate, from being sold off to settle debts ? From what I read, probate assets cannot be transferred to heirs and other beneficiaries (museum) until debts are settled. =Dan http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From IanK at vulcan.com Sat Jan 23 21:06:02 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 19:06:02 -0800 Subject: Wills....Re: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5BB7DF.2070103@comcast.net> References: , <4B5BB7DF.2070103@comcast.net> Message-ID: That's why estate planning lawyers make good money. :-) There are many mechanisms to ensure that your wishes are carried out. ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dan Roganti [ragooman at comcast.net] Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 7:00 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Wills....Re: Museums William Donzelli wrote: > Recall about a week or so ago I had an informal survey concerning > wills, and taking care of collections after the collectors have > passed. Results were better than last time - barely. Two. > > I guess this means there are going to be a lot of Straight-8s and > Apple Is scrapped in the next 20-30 years. > If you make a will, how do you guarantee to have your collection entrusted to a museum and prevent your collection, which is also considered assets in probate, from being sold off to settle debts ? From what I read, probate assets cannot be transferred to heirs and other beneficiaries (museum) until debts are settled. =Dan http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jan 23 21:13:59 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 22:13:59 -0500 Subject: Wills....Re: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5BB7DF.2070103@comcast.net> References: <4B5BB7DF.2070103@comcast.net> Message-ID: > If you make a will, how do you guarantee to have your collection entrusted > to a museum and prevent your collection, which is also considered assets in > probate, from being sold off to settle debts ? An asset is an asset, will or not. If there are debts to pay, any assets can become part of the game. If the estate has big debts - that is another can of worms. -- Will From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat Jan 23 21:23:57 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 19:23:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Stripping green soldermask? coating from pc-boards. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <245587.34999.qm@web52603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 1/23/10, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > From: Geoffrey Reed > Subject: Stripping green soldermask? coating from pc-boards. > To: "cctalk" > Date: Saturday, January 23, 2010, 6:52 PM > The exact term is slipping my mind, > but I have a PC-board I want to scan the > traces on and see about making a transparency of to make > some single sided > pc-boards of, but am kind of stuck at how to strip the > green coating off of > it. Sandpaper. I have to do this when repairing badly battery acid damaged boards. That said, you should still be able to get a good enough scan without having to remove the coating though. -Ian From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 23 21:57:47 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 19:57:47 -0800 Subject: Wills....Re: Museums In-Reply-To: References: , <4B5BB7DF.2070103@comcast.net>, Message-ID: <4B5B54BB.31557.258675E@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Jan 2010 at 19:06, Ian King wrote: > From what I read, probate assets cannot be transferred to heirs and > other beneficiaries (museum) until debts are settled. Probate where there is no will can take a very long time (read: years). Even with a will, probate can take months in some jurisdictions. The prudent thing to do as you settle into your golden years is to transfer title to your assets to the person or entity that you intend. Arrange a lease-back to you for, oh, $1 per year. There are two immediate benefits--the first is that you get to take the tax credit immediately if you're donating to a non-profit 501(c)3. The other is that once you depart to take your place at the great abacus in the sky, there's no going through probate or any question of title. The assets are not part of your estate. My mother-in-law gifted her house to her kids when she passed her 90th birthday. When she died at 99.5 years, the kids were able to take advantage of a midly overheated real estate market to dispose of it. Her estate cleared probate (even with a will) two years later when the market was beginning to tank. --Chuck From blstuart at bellsouth.net Sat Jan 23 22:11:54 2010 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart at bellsouth.net) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 22:11:54 -0600 Subject: Wills....Re: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5B54BB.31557.258675E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Probate where there is no will can take a very long time (read: > years). Even with a will, probate can take months in some > jurisdictions. > > The prudent thing to do as you settle into your golden years is to > transfer title to your assets to the person or entity that you > intend. Arrange a lease-back to you for, oh, $1 per year. Even with such planning, it can take quite a while. My dad passed away last January. His estate was finally closed in November. For us, similar planning made some things better and some more troublesome. But all in all, it was a good move. One last thing. If you do transfer the title that way and it's not to a spouse, be prepared to pay gift taxes on it. I think the limit before gift taxes kick in is $10K per recipient per year. Of course, keeping this on topic, if you have so much classic computer equipment that $10K per year won't get it all distributed, then I'll be glad to take $10K in computers per year off your hands. Can we start with a Straight-8? :) BLS From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jan 23 22:17:37 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 21:17:37 -0700 Subject: Wills....Re: Museums In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B5BC9E1.8010601@jetnet.ab.ca> blstuart at bellsouth.net wrote: > > One last thing. If you do transfer the title that way and > it's not to a spouse, be prepared to pay gift taxes on it. > I think the limit before gift taxes kick in is $10K per > recipient per year. Of course, keeping this on topic, if > you have so much classic computer equipment that $10K > per year won't get it all distributed, then I'll be glad to > take $10K in computers per year off your hands. Can > we start with a Straight-8? :) Only if the bills are dated 1969 or less. :) > BLS From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jan 23 22:39:29 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 23:39:29 -0500 Subject: Wills....Re: Museums In-Reply-To: References: <4B5B54BB.31557.258675E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Of course, keeping this on topic, if > you have so much classic computer equipment that $10K > per year won't get it all distributed, Computer collections worth more than $10K are not rare. I would say that 15 percent of the regulars on this list have collections worth more than $10K, including the holier-than-thou types that refuse to adequately value their holdings*. I would also say that more than a few percent have collections worth more than $50K. * You guys owe the favor to your heirs and spouses. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 23 22:53:55 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 20:53:55 -0800 Subject: Wills....Re: Museums In-Reply-To: References: <4B5B54BB.31557.258675E@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B5B61E3.4531.28BCB9E@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Jan 2010 at 22:11, blstuart at bellsouth.net wrote: > One last thing. If you do transfer the title that way and > it's not to a spouse, be prepared to pay gift taxes on it. > I think the limit before gift taxes kick in is $10K per > recipient per year. Of course, keeping this on topic, if > you have so much classic computer equipment that $10K > per year won't get it all distributed, then I'll be glad to > take $10K in computers per year off your hands. Can > we start with a Straight-8? :) It's currently (2009) $13K per year per person. If you're married and your spouse agrees, then s/he can participate and your total goes to $26K per person per year. If your recipient has children or a spouse, multiply accordingly. Regardless, you're an idiot if you don't see a tax specialist about all of this. --Chuck From g-wright at att.net Sun Jan 24 00:35:15 2010 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 06:35:15 +0000 Subject: Free in Seattle - SGI Personal Iris 4D/35 & Iris File In-Reply-To: <4B5B8901.10607@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <012420100635.22018.4B5BEA22000B5C880000560222230682329B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> -------------- Original message from Josh Dersch : -------------- > Local pickup only, these things are huge. > > I have a 4D/35 in non-working condition. It doesn't power on but is > complete (well, ok, it's lacking drives and sleds) with 64mb memory and > if I recall, a full complement of video hardware (GR 1.2, bitplane, > z-buffer, turbo.) I can take it apart again if you want to know for > 100% sure. It's in decent cosmetic condition, but it could use some > TLC. A fun machine when working, especially if you want to play around > with older versions of IRIX. > > Comes with an Iris File (external SCSI enclosure the same size as the > Iris itself). Again, no drives or sleds. > > I'm in the Seattle area. If you want it, come and get it in the next > week or it's off to RE-PC in Tukwila... > > Thanks, > Josh Hi Josh, Does it have the Keyboard and mouse ?? -Jerry From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Jan 24 01:59:11 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 23:59:11 -0800 Subject: Free in Seattle - SGI Personal Iris 4D/35 & Iris File In-Reply-To: <012420100635.22018.4B5BEA22000B5C880000560222230682329B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> References: <012420100635.22018.4B5BEA22000B5C880000560222230682329B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: <4B5BFDCF.4010007@mail.msu.edu> g-wright at att.net wrote: > >> Local pickup only, these things are huge. >> >> I have a 4D/35 in non-working condition. It doesn't power on but is >> complete (well, ok, it's lacking drives and sleds) with 64mb memory and >> if I recall, a full complement of video hardware (GR 1.2, bitplane, >> z-buffer, turbo.) I can take it apart again if you want to know for >> 100% sure. It's in decent cosmetic condition, but it could use some >> TLC. A fun machine when working, especially if you want to play around >> with older versions of IRIX. >> >> Comes with an Iris File (external SCSI enclosure the same size as the >> Iris itself). Again, no drives or sleds. >> >> I'm in the Seattle area. If you want it, come and get it in the next >> week or it's off to RE-PC in Tukwila... >> >> Thanks, >> Josh >> > > Hi Josh, > > Does it have the Keyboard and mouse ?? > > -Jerry > > No, just the main unit. I only have one old-style SGI keyboard/mouse and I need it for my Crimson, alas... Josh From philip at axeside.co.uk Sat Jan 23 04:45:57 2010 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:45:57 +0000 Subject: starting my relay computer project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B5AD365.9070605@axeside.co.uk> Randy Dawson wrote: > After years and years of interest in this, way back to the sci am > 'Ameteur Scientist' articles, I am beginning this project. > > I have a unique and amazing resource, I work for a semiconductor > company in test engineering, and we use tons of those little TO-5 > Teledyne relays in our IC test boards. I have scavenged >1000 or so > for the project, so its not going to be a giant machine like Harry > Porters: Have you read "The Computer - My Life" by Konrad Zuse (New York: Springer Verlag, 1993. ISBN 0-387-56453-5)? Mostly historical / autobiographical, but some good technical bits on the evolution of relay logic as Zuse's designs got more mature. Interesting how the number of relays per bit he needed in his adder circuit got less and less... Philip. From philip at axeside.co.uk Sat Jan 23 04:49:58 2010 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:49:58 +0000 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B5AD456.9030707@axeside.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > Modern components shouldn't get hot enough to burn you :-). Glassfets are > another matter. And an IC that has developped internal shorts can get hot > enough to burn you, some DRAMs were prone to this. I think the only time I burned myself on a _component_ it was an electrolytic capacitor I'd connected backwards. Soldering irons are another matter... And I once got a nasty point burn where I touched a live mains terminal with one finger. Philip. From pinball at telus.net Sat Jan 23 14:53:16 2010 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 12:53:16 -0800 Subject: Znner diode data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B5B61BC.5060906@telus.net> Tony Duell wrote: > The quick versions : > > Does anyone know of a book or website which gives brief characteristics > of zemer diodes? > http://search.datasheetcatalog.net/key/1N5365 These guys don't charge for PDFs either! John :-#)# From elazzerini at interfree.it Sat Jan 23 16:07:39 2010 From: elazzerini at interfree.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 23:07:39 +0100 Subject: PROMAC 2A Eprom Programmer Message-ID: Hello at all, i have the programmer from many years in a box. Its firmware make work it in automatic way so it is not possible (or almost this is aall i know) to drive it from its buttons. When i power on it, it trys to send somenting via its serial RS232 to the host computer. I checked the serial port for a null modem way to work and if i load hyperterminal i see some unknow characters on the screen, and if i push a key on the keyboard i see that something goes via serial to the programmer. If i try to change the serial speed or character lenghts or its parity the characters on the screen not become intellegible. At the end if i try to load its original DOS program (not in a window of windows XP, but making a DOS 3.3 boot!) after done the check i said, neither the DOS software can drive the eprom programmer. Here all information i found across internet: http://elazzerini.interfree.it/Promac%20Model%202A.htm Here you can find the software i had for this programmer: http://elazzerini.interfree.it/PROMAC2A.zip Thanks for any suggestions. Enrico From ka6gsu at arrl.net Sat Jan 23 19:47:30 2010 From: ka6gsu at arrl.net (Rod) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 17:47:30 -0800 Subject: Another batch of manuals / brochures that must go Message-ID: <4B5BA6B2.4030001@arrl.net> Hi Joe, Am I correct in assuming that the Precision Standard Time Inc brochures for models 1020 & 1030 are gone? Rod Austin From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Jan 23 20:28:16 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 21:28:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: scandoubler/flicker fixer etc. recommendations In-Reply-To: <201001232237.o0NMbP1s017360@floodgap.com> References: <201001232237.o0NMbP1s017360@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Jan 2010, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I've had great results from the Highway 100 scan converter. It's a bit >> pricey, but produces a rock-solid scan-doubled image from my Amiga 2000 in >> interlaced 640x480 mode. It even supports the somewhat (well, very) >> oddball color output from an Apple IIgs. > > Steve, is this the one you're talking about? > > http://www.converters.tv/products/pal_to_vga/100.html Yes, that's the one. I run into the RGB input. I actually think that it can handle NTSC composite input as well, but have never tried it. Steve -- From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Sun Jan 24 05:26:19 2010 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 12:26:19 +0100 Subject: Znner diode data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100124112619.GI24075@lug-owl.de> On Sat, 2010-01-23 20:12:25 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > The quick versions : > > Does anyone know of a book or website which gives brief characteristics > of zemer diodes? > > The ones we use in Europe tend to have the zener voltage given as a suffix > to the part number, but the US ones have 1Nxxxx numbers which tell me > very little. http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/microsemi/1n5333b-88b.pdf So this is a 36V Z-diode. MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the second : the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jan 24 09:31:32 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 07:31:32 -0800 Subject: Nicolet 2090 scope In-Reply-To: <20100124112619.GI24075@lug-owl.de> References: ,<20100124112619.GI24075@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: Hi I just got my 2090 Nicolet scope working. I'd picked it up for $30. It had a shorted tantalum that took out the regulator, power transistor and current limit resistor. I suspect the current limit resistor over heated and increased in resistance. This may have wiped out the regulator that wiped out the power transistor. Or, some such combination. I'd never used one of these DSO's but had to fiddle some time to figure it out. I've got most of it figured out. Understanding the execute button was a revilation. It does funny things if you open the disk door and don't have a disk in it but that is kind of expected. It uses a pile of 2111's for storage. I'd expected to see problems there but so far, it looks OK. I don't see any missing or additional data on the screen. Even though it is not a 100Mhz scope, it should work fine with my analog computer. It has the full dual differencial front end ( 206 not the 204 ). It is more than I need but cool to have the diffencial inputs. If anyone has an operators manual of a mantainance manual, I'd love to get a copy. There is someone on eBay selling a mantainance manual for $150 ( ArrrrrH! ). Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390709/direct/01/ From js at cimmeri.com Sun Jan 24 09:33:25 2010 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 10:33:25 -0500 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B5C6845.5000808@cimmeri.com> William Donzelli wrote: Recall about a week or so ago I had an informal survey concerning wills, and taking care of collections after the collectors have passed. Results were better than last time - barely. Two. I guess this means there are going to be a lot of Straight-8s and Apple Is scrapped in the next 20-30 years. Will ------------------------------------------- One problem I see is that the general population views old computers as just a bunch of old office equipment. When my friends come over, they tease me about all the effort I put into this stuff, saying, "Why bother with all this old crap? You realize that when you die, it's just all going into a dumpster?" And that's precisely what's going to happen if those not knowledgeable are left with your collection in their hands and not knowing what to do with it. It's just too hard to sell for most people. So, seems like "old office equipment collectors" could use a safe, central place to register... a place that they or their heirs can contact when it's time for the collection to go.. an organization that either handles dispensing of the collection, or that merely alerts others in the collecting world that the collection is available. Another question is whether old computers will have the same popularity as they have now (whatever that level of popularity is now). Will interest go up over time, or will it go down as the people that grew up with those models are replaced by people who did not? I would hazard the guess that most people are most fond of the machines they grew up with.. and then second, those that at least existed during their lifetimes, and then lastly, a sharp drop off for those that existed prior to their lifetimes. That pattern could change some due to machines having gotten so much smaller starting in the 70's. The prior question has much bearing on how much goes to dumpsters. If you others are contacted about a collection, will they even come? What is the best thing, today, that I can tell my family about what to do with this collection if I were to check out? I really don't know the answer to that question. John Singleton From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jan 24 10:04:36 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 08:04:36 -0800 Subject: starting my relay computer project In-Reply-To: <4B5AD365.9070605@axeside.co.uk> References: , <4B5AD365.9070605@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: > From: philip at axeside.co.uk > > Have you read "The Computer - My Life" by Konrad Zuse (New York: > Springer Verlag, 1993. ISBN 0-387-56453-5)? Mostly historical / > autobiographical, but some good technical bits on the evolution of relay > logic as Zuse's designs got more mature. Interesting how the number of > relays per bit he needed in his adder circuit got less and less... > I always loved his vertually zero delay carry. At least it was zero for relays. It was something that one would not think of just looking at a single bit or even normal logic of digital stuff. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390708/direct/01/ From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 24 10:24:40 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 16:24:40 -0000 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5C6845.5000808@cimmeri.com> References: <4B5C6845.5000808@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <003001ca9d11$bedc6480$3c952d80$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > > One problem I see is that the general population views old computers as > just a bunch of old office equipment. When my friends come over, they > tease me about all the effort I put into this stuff, saying, "Why > bother with all this old crap? You realize that when you die, it's > just all going into a dumpster?" > > And that's precisely what's going to happen if those not knowledgeable > are left with your collection in their hands and not knowing what to do > with it. It's just too hard to sell for most people. > > So, seems like "old office equipment collectors" could use a safe, > central place to register... a place that they or their heirs can > contact when it's time for the collection to go.. an organization that > either handles dispensing of the collection, or that merely alerts > others in the collecting world that the collection is available. > > Another question is whether old computers will have the same popularity > as they have now (whatever that level of popularity is now). Will > interest go up over time, or will it go down as the people that grew up > with those models are replaced by people who did not? I would hazard > the guess that most people are most fond of the machines they grew up > with.. and then second, those that at least existed during their > lifetimes, and then lastly, a sharp drop off for those that existed > prior to their lifetimes. That pattern could change some due to > machines having gotten so much smaller starting in the 70's. > I am not so sure that it is necessarily the case that people lose interest in things that pre-date their own lifetime. I live in Manchester in the UK and we have a museum of Science and Industry here that is full of old stationary steam engines that are still operated. These machines certainly predate the lifetimes of their current curators and maintainers. If there were no interest in things that pre-dated our own lifetimes then there would not be any museums. The peculiar problem faced by computer history is perhaps the frenetic pace of computer development, which has meant that historically interesting computers are not generally recognised as such because they are still relatively recent and become obsolete so quickly that they are discarded far too readily. I am sure the time will come when computers will become of general interest to anyone with any interest in history, the only danger is that we may have already thrown them all away. Regards Rob From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 24 10:40:30 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 08:40:30 -0800 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5C6845.5000808@cimmeri.com> References: , <4B5C6845.5000808@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <4B5C077E.577.5EA29@cclist.sydex.com> Germane to the discussion of "museums" is today's BBC World Service "Forum" program held at the British Museum. The topic is "objects" and more than once the term "virtual museum" has been used. FWIW, Chuck (who doesn't listen to what passes for radio in the US) From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Jan 24 10:46:44 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 11:46:44 -0500 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5C6845.5000808@cimmeri.com> References: <4B5C6845.5000808@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <201001241146.44516.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 24 January 2010, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > Another question is whether old computers will have the same > popularity as they have now (whatever that level of popularity is > now). Will interest go up over time, or will it go down as the > people that grew up with those models are replaced by people who did > not? I would hazard the guess that most people are most fond of > the machines they grew up with.. and then second, those that at > least existed during their lifetimes, and then lastly, a sharp drop > off for those that existed prior to their lifetimes. That pattern > could change some due to machines having gotten so much smaller > starting in the 70's. Some of the people on this list are pre-dated by most of the "classic" computers that they collect, and are more interested in the history aspect, and less so in the "I want to hoard machines that I grew up with" aspect. I guess I fall somewhere in the middle of those two. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Jan 24 10:46:58 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 17:46:58 +0100 Subject: Free in Seattle - SGI Personal Iris 4D/35 & Iris File In-Reply-To: <4B5BFDCF.4010007@mail.msu.edu> References: <012420100635.22018.4B5BEA22000B5C880000560222230682329B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> <4B5BFDCF.4010007@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20100124174658.d65fb9b1.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 23 Jan 2010 23:59:11 -0800 Josh Dersch wrote: > > Does it have the Keyboard and mouse ?? > No, just the main unit. I only have one old-style SGI keyboard/mouse > and I need it for my Crimson, alas... Indigo Keyboard and Mouse Converter http://rshockley.dyndns.org/indigo.htm Should work on the PI also. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Jan 24 11:17:08 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 11:17:08 -0600 Subject: Museum for sale In-Reply-To: <4B5A1CAE.9080002@snarc.net> References: <201001221351.o0MDp2IF086860@amd64.ott.parse.com> <4B59C29F.9050108@snarc.net> <2b1f1f551001220904j61948d81u14f3d36547624b@mail.gmail.com> <00bb01ca9b90$561f53d0$025dfb70$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> <4B5A1CAE.9080002@snarc.net> Message-ID: <201001241717.o0OHHI8O008002@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 03:46 PM 1/22/2010, Evan Koblentz wrote: >I strongly disagree. An individual's personal web site about his private collection is not a "museum" of any kind. Yeah, but it sounds so much better than "a bunch of junk in my basement". >Note to everyone: call things what they are! Making a web site about your own stuff isn't a freaking museum. Geez. Speaking as someone with one of those online museum pages, I'll say I can call my web page any damn thing I want, and if you don't like it, get a life and hit the back button. :-) I'd say the biggest risk of making a web page and calling it a "museum" is that people can figure out where you are, and they'll show up in person, unannounced, expecting a free guided tour. No offense taken, actually. - John From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 24 11:20:10 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 12:20:10 -0500 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5C6845.5000808@cimmeri.com> References: <4B5C6845.5000808@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <7593774A-B308-49B5-877F-B8B002AD1511@neurotica.com> On Jan 24, 2010, at 10:33 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > One problem I see is that the general population views old > computers as just a bunch of old office equipment. When my friends > come over, they tease me about all the effort I put into this > stuff, saying, "Why bother with all this old crap? You realize > that when you die, it's just all going into a dumpster?" Don't worry, this is an easy problem to solve. There are two options: 1) Choose better friends 2) Educate your existing friends #2 is, of course, the best option, and often the only option with family members. The analogy I like to use is cars. Everyone understands the guy with the Model T Ford in the garage. I explain that this is exactly the same thing...just the cars have only revolutionized transportation, while computers have revolutionized EVERYTHING, and preserving them, and their history, is just as important if not more so. Every nontechnical person I've explained this to has gotten it, without exception. You can actually watch their facial expressions change as the light dawns, then suddenly they start to respect the equipment and sometimes become curious about it. In fact, two of those people now own (and love) small PDP-11s. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jan 24 11:19:16 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 09:19:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: scandoubler/flicker fixer etc. recommendations In-Reply-To: from Steven Hirsch at "Jan 23, 10 09:28:16 pm" Message-ID: <201001241719.o0OHJGUm011250@floodgap.com> > > > I've had great results from the Highway 100 scan converter. It's a bit > > > pricey, but produces a rock-solid scan-doubled image from my Amiga 2000 in > > > interlaced 640x480 mode. It even supports the somewhat (well, very) > > > oddball color output from an Apple IIgs. > > > > Steve, is this the one you're talking about? > > > > http://www.converters.tv/products/pal_to_vga/100.html > > Yes, that's the one. I run into the RGB input. I actually think that it > can handle NTSC composite input as well, but have never tried it. How do you have it connected to the IIgs? What pins do you have where? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- ASK ME ABOUT MY VOW OF SILENCE!!!! ----------------------------------------- From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Jan 24 11:43:31 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 10:43:31 -0700 Subject: BNC to VGA Cable Message-ID: <4B5C86C3.8090302@e-bbes.com> Hi all, a source for a BNC to VGA cable ? (Yes, I have a soldering iron, but like to buy some ;-)) The other way around (VGA->BNC) is easy to get, but don't find any BNC->VGA(15 pin) Cheers & thanks From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 24 11:56:10 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 09:56:10 -0800 Subject: BNC to VGA Cable In-Reply-To: <4B5C86C3.8090302@e-bbes.com> References: <4B5C86C3.8090302@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <4B5C193A.18102.4B2EA4@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Jan 2010 at 10:43, e.stiebler wrote: > a source for a BNC to VGA cable ? > (Yes, I have a soldering iron, but like to buy some ;-)) > > The other way around (VGA->BNC) is easy to get, but don't find any > BNC->VGA(15 pin) Color me confused. All of my VGA monitors and cards have HD15F connectors, so it wouldn't seem to matter which way it goes. What am I missing? Thanks, Chuck From js at cimmeri.com Sun Jan 24 12:15:49 2010 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 13:15:49 -0500 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B5C8E55.3050105@cimmeri.com> Rob Jarrat wrote: > If there were no interest in things that pre-dated our own lifetimes then > there would not be any museums. Of course, but that wasn't my point. My point is that I observe there to be, in general, LESS interest in collecting items that predate our own existence. For example, I know many more people who own classic cars like Mustangs simply because they always wanted one while growing up, or maybe had one... than those collectors who own Ford Model Ts. You could make the argument that Mustangs are more readily available, but that wouldn't be true. It's just that few if any those Mustang owners have any interest in Model T's for any number of valid reasons. So, I'm drawing a distinction between personal nostalgia and emotional response, vs. collecting purely for historical enjoyment or purposes. Rob Jarrat wrote: > The peculiar problem faced by computer > history is perhaps the frenetic pace of computer development, which has > meant that historically interesting computers are not generally recognised > as such because they are still relatively recent and become obsolete so > quickly that they are discarded far too readily. Excellent point. Which leads to wonder if only the early computers -- when development moved slower and there were far fewer models in existence -- will remain the collectible ones. I don't see any computers in most of the 90's, and none at all from 2000 onwards that I'd ever want to collect. Wonder how others feel? Will a Dell PC ever be collectible? Are Apples the only ones that might stand a chance? Are all computers now merely appliances with zero personality? John Singleton From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Jan 24 12:18:25 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 11:18:25 -0700 Subject: BNC to VGA Cable In-Reply-To: <4B5C193A.18102.4B2EA4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B5C86C3.8090302@e-bbes.com> <4B5C193A.18102.4B2EA4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B5C8EF1.7090604@e-bbes.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Color me confused. All of my VGA monitors and cards have HD15F > connectors, so it wouldn't seem to matter which way it goes. What am > I missing? A gender-changer on the HD15 ? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 24 12:23:33 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 18:23:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Znner diode data In-Reply-To: <4B5B607E.3080009@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jan 23, 10 08:47:58 pm Message-ID: > > On 23/01/2010 20:12, Tony Duell wrote: > > The quick versions :=20 > >=20 > > Does anyone know of a book or website which gives brief characteristics= > =20 > > of zemer diodes?=20 Thanks to everyone who has replied. I now know it's a 36V 5W zener, I also know a place I can get one (not that expensive either). But I would still an equivalent for 'Towers International Transistor Selector', but for Zners, useful. One for SCRs/thyristors/triacs/etc would be useful too. Does such a thing exist? > > > The actual device I am looking for info on is a 1N5365 , but knowing=20 > > where to look in future would be useful. > > That's a 36V 5W zener. I usually look things like that up on Farnell's=20 > website -- just go to http://uk.farnell.com/ and type the part number=20 This only works if Farnell stock the part in question :-). I didn't expect the original component for a 30-year-old printer to be avaiablke that easily. Farnell also sell the 2 power transistors that failed at the same time (2N5884 and 2N5886 -- they're not cheap, but they are available. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 24 12:30:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 18:30:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Part Number for a MicroVAX II Fan In-Reply-To: <002901ca9c83$6b44f2d0$41ced870$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Jan 23, 10 11:25:56 pm Message-ID: > Finally got round to getting the fan out. It is a 120mm fan, marked as > follows: > > Nidec > Torin > TA450DC > Model A 31728-10 > 10 V.D.C > 30 AMP I do not believe for one instant that that fan draws 30A! 0.3A, quite possibly. > > The only readily available DC fans I can find are 12V, guessing these would I've seen 24V ones, but those are even less use to you. > run at a reduced speed compared to the ones I have in the machine now, but > would probably otherwise work OK. What do you reckon? If this would work I Well, if it was my machine, I'd have a go are repairing the old fan first. Officially I'd claim that was for originality, practically it's bacuase I've got more time than money :-). Seriously, you've got nothing to lose by trying to take it apart and find the fault. If you can't fix it, you can just fit a new fan anyway. > might replace them both with quieter fans (not sure what the flow rate of > these fans is any idea? > > The connector is difficult to describe. The fan has two tags that stick out > and the cable has a plastic block on the end with a socket that fits the two > tags. Yes,t that's the standard arrangemetn. The tags can have wires soldered straight to them, or you cna use faston terminals . Smoe manufcatuters also sold leads with mouteded connectors that fitted onto the tags on their fans, as you have here. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 24 13:38:53 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 11:38:53 -0800 Subject: Znner diode data In-Reply-To: References: <4B5B607E.3080009@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jan 23, 10 08:47:58 pm, Message-ID: <4B5C314D.1760.A9386F@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Jan 2010 at 18:23, Tony Duell wrote: > But I would still an equivalent for 'Towers International Transistor > Selector', but for Zners, useful. One for SCRs/thyristors/triacs/etc > would be useful too. Does such a thing exist? NTE's website contains a cross-reference tool with data sheets. (Your zener is listed) http://nte01.nteinc.com/nte/NTExRefSemiProd.nsf/$$Search?OpenForm --Chuck From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Jan 24 13:55:29 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 20:55:29 +0100 Subject: BNC to VGA Cable In-Reply-To: <4B5C86C3.8090302@e-bbes.com> References: <4B5C86C3.8090302@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <20100124205529.b1ab47e8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 10:43:31 -0700 "e.stiebler" wrote: > The other way around (VGA->BNC) is easy to get, but don't find any > BNC->VGA(15 pin) VGA->BNC and Sub-D gender changer? VGA->BNC and BNC "barrel connectors"[1]? VGA->BNC and both of the above? [1] You can use a BNC T-piece as well. At least I do for this purpose if a "barrel connector" in not at hand. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Jan 24 14:12:26 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 15:12:26 -0500 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5C8E55.3050105@cimmeri.com> References: <4B5C8E55.3050105@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <201001241512.26267.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 24 January 2010, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > Excellent point. Which leads to wonder if only the early computers > -- when development moved slower and there were far fewer models in > existence -- will remain the collectible ones. I don't see any > computers in most of the 90's, and none at all from 2000 onwards > that I'd ever want to collect. Wonder how others feel? Will a > Dell PC ever be collectible? Are Apples the only ones that might > stand a chance? Are all computers now merely appliances with zero > personality? It depends. "Home computers" are generally appliances, but there are still interesting computers being produced, IMO. Stuff like Sun Niagra (UltraSparc T1/T2) series machines, IBM mainframes, SiCortex's machines, Crays, and other high-dollar/high end machines. Even things like the XO OLPC, Asus Eee PC, Apple original iPhone and iPod, etc, are unique enough (or were when they came out) that I'd say they are collectible. (that's not to say that I find them interesting, but I can understand someone finding them to be interesting). I don't think $random_home_pc is much less collectible than $random_s100_bus_machine really is. I've got S-100 bus machines (mostly gone now to other collectors) that people generally were more interested in the cards in them, than the system itself. In that regard, old PCs are similar to old "generic" S-100 bus machines... the parts are easily worth more than the assembled machine. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Jan 24 14:48:36 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 15:48:36 -0500 Subject: Museums References: <4B5C8E55.3050105@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <84A2461935DD482784A3C96EB3CDAFF5@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 1:15 PM Subject: Re: Museums > Excellent point. Which leads to wonder if only the early computers -- > when development moved slower and there were far fewer models in > existence -- will remain the collectible ones. I don't see any > computers in most of the 90's, and none at all from 2000 onwards that I'd > ever want to collect. Wonder how others feel? Will a Dell PC ever be > collectible? Are Apples the only ones that might stand a chance? Are > all computers now merely appliances with zero personality? > > John Singleton I think the 90's will be collectable because of the history and variety of 3D Video (and somewhat sound) revolution in gaming. There are quite a few companies (many no longer around) that were involved in that era, and people will want vintage machines to run those cards in. Check out this link for example: http://www.maximumpc.com/print/6338 The fact that recycling started getting serious in that time frame I bet that the supply of those machines (and each generation after) will be quite small by the time people show interest. It seems people are hunting down 386/486 machines now, and they are getting harder to find even if they were made in the millions. I see P2/P3 machines recycled in the 100's each month where I live. Recently Goodwill got a deal with DELL to recycle old computers for free (including monitors), so that will just speed up the process of recycling since people do not even have to pay a token amount anymore. I suspect in a decade CRT monitors will be hard to find in working condition. From vax9000 at gmail.com Sun Jan 24 15:00:55 2010 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 16:00:55 -0500 Subject: PDP 8A value? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 10% #280456133366 Thanks. On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 1:07 PM, 9000 VAX wrote: > I saw the talk about PDP 8/L and found a 8A locally. It comes with a paper > tape punch. What is the value of it? Does it worth it to bring to ebay, and > offer the list member 10%-20% off? > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 24 15:06:33 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 13:06:33 -0800 Subject: Recurring subject: Goo removal Message-ID: <4B5C45D9.1656.F97BEB@cclist.sydex.com> I was going through some of my old equipment and decided to see if my old DDS autochanger still worked. I powered it up and, after many whirring and "SCANNING" "LOAD 01" etc. messages, it gave me an ERROR 10. Upon opening up the unit, I discovered that the rubber rollers that manipulate the magazine as well those that actually feed the cassette had turned to black goo and spread it all over the place. Alcohol wouldn't cut the stuff, so I tried mineral spirits. Better, but no cigar. Lamp oil was even better, but I finally settled on Coleman Stove fuel. Not perfect, but at least I got things cleaned up. I'm probably not going to do the next step any time soon--replace the now-gone rubber feed rollers. I don't need the drive (although it can read DAT audio tapes, which is kind of interesting) as I have other DDS drives that work just fine. Maybe a rainy-day project when I'm looking for something to do. Does anyone have any preferences for a goo remover? I've heard that Ronson Lighter fluid also works well. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 24 13:14:32 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 19:14:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Shaft encoder in HP2631B printer Message-ID: This is a long shot... On the other hand, there are people here who've done all sorts of odd things, and the only silly question is one that's not asked (or something like that). As I mentioned yesterday (when I asked about zneer diode data), I've got an HP2631B printer that's gone crazy. I had anohter quick look at it today, and it appears that one problem is the shaft encoder on the right hand end of the carriage leadscrew. This connects by a 10 way cable (integral with the encoder) to the 'printer logic' PCB, 6 of the pins on the connector sseem to be used, 2 grouds, 2 +5V and the 2 quadrature output signals. Those 2 outputs are buffered by a couple of sections of a '14, the outputs of that go to testpoints (and elswehere, of course). Anyway, both those testpoints are low all the time (turning the leadscrew by hand, I've not fixed the motor drive amplifer yet!). The outputs from the encoder are high all the time (so the problem isn't the '14, more's the pity), they are genuinely high, not floating. And there don't seem to be any pull-ups on the printer logic PCB< so the 'high' is coming from the encoder. Anyway. Iv'e read the HP service manual (on http://www.hpmuseum.net) and it appears you need special tools to remove and replace the encoder. The encoder disk is epoxied to the neadscrew, you need a special puller to break the bond and an alignment tool to get the encoder disk the right distance insde the encoder housing when you refit it. Of coruse I don;t ahve the tools... Has anyone ever done this? Maybe the same tools, or something like them, were used with THe shaft encoders that HP sold as loose componets. Any thoughts? -tony From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sun Jan 24 15:19:03 2010 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 21:19:03 +0000 Subject: Shaft encoder in HP2631B printer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: sounds like the lamp/led is off Dave Caroline From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Jan 24 15:29:00 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 16:29:00 -0500 Subject: Recurring subject: Goo removal References: <4B5C45D9.1656.F97BEB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 4:06 PM Subject: Recurring subject: Goo removal > Does anyone have any preferences for a goo remover? I've heard that > Ronson Lighter fluid also works well. > > --Chuck The GOO gone product line works well for most things (reminds me I need to get some more). I like the label remover stuff they make, no idea what is inside. There are plenty of nasty solvents that will remove pretty much anything organic/petroleum based (MEK for one), but they will damage the plastic and are harmfull to humans as well. From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Jan 24 15:40:22 2010 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 13:40:22 -0800 Subject: Recurring subject: Goo removal In-Reply-To: References: <4B5C45D9.1656.F97BEB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5B3093DA-1F47-4338-81DA-324EC6956629@shiresoft.com> On Jan 24, 2010, at 1:29 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" > >> Does anyone have any preferences for a goo remover? I've heard that >> Ronson Lighter fluid also works well. >> >> --Chuck > > The GOO gone product line works well for most things (reminds me I need to get some more). I like the label remover stuff they make, no idea what is inside. > > There are plenty of nasty solvents that will remove pretty much anything organic/petroleum based (MEK for one), but they will damage the plastic and are harmfull to humans as well. > I've found that denatured alcohol works well for a number of different things and it's not as toxic as most solvents. It's pretty easy on most things but I've found some inks/paint are removed by it. TTFN - Guy From halarewich at gmail.com Sun Jan 24 15:52:19 2010 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 13:52:19 -0800 Subject: BNC to VGA Cable In-Reply-To: <4B5C86C3.8090302@e-bbes.com> References: <4B5C86C3.8090302@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <6d6501091001241352u1aad1095t2443cef3c4b01310@mail.gmail.com> here are the gender changers http://www.monoprice.com/products/search.asp?keyword=hd-15+gender and here are the cables i think http://www.monoprice.com/products/search.asp?spcDB=10203&spcWord=Video+Cables+%2D+RCA%2FBNC%2F13W3&keyword=bnc Chris On 1/24/10, e.stiebler wrote: > > Hi all, > a source for a BNC to VGA cable ? > (Yes, I have a soldering iron, but like to buy some ;-)) > > The other way around (VGA->BNC) is easy to get, but don't find any > BNC->VGA(15 pin) > > Cheers & thanks > From halarewich at gmail.com Sun Jan 24 16:05:52 2010 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 14:05:52 -0800 Subject: Large pdp-8/i on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <84C392B587EF45C8B03037CE0D634C57@vrsxp> <506874a586e686f6d1c86a81f2516d56.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4B521749.5010101@hachti.de> Message-ID: <6d6501091001241405n50e6948av845d8d759671578b@mail.gmail.com> It edded up going for $15,000 US! On 1/16/10, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > > From: "Philipp Hachtmann" Saturday, January 16, 2010 11:45 AM > >> Tim put his 8/i up on eBay a couple of hours ago. It's worth a >>> >>>> look. >>>> >>>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320475395861 >>>> >>> Which Tim? >> > > Technically, my user agreement with eBay prevents me from saying, > but the last name starts with "R" and ends with "dde" :-). If that doesn't > help, he's also listed in the PDP-8 frappr. > > Vince > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jan 24 16:43:34 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 15:43:34 -0700 Subject: Large pdp-8/i on eBay In-Reply-To: <6d6501091001241405n50e6948av845d8d759671578b@mail.gmail.com> References: <84C392B587EF45C8B03037CE0D634C57@vrsxp> <506874a586e686f6d1c86a81f2516d56.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4B521749.5010101@hachti.de> <6d6501091001241405n50e6948av845d8d759671578b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B5CCD16.4050007@jetnet.ab.ca> Chris Halarewich wrote: > It edded up going for $15,000 US! Any idea what the list price would have been? Ben. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jan 24 16:47:20 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 17:47:20 -0500 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5C6845.5000808@cimmeri.com> References: <4B5C6845.5000808@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: > And that's precisely what's going to happen if those not knowledgeable are > left with your collection in their hands and not knowing what to do with it. > ?It's just too hard to sell for most people. This is very easy language to add to a will. > So, seems like "old office equipment collectors" could use a safe, central > place to register... a place that they or their heirs can contact when it's > time for the collection to go.. an organization that either handles > dispensing of the collection, or that merely alerts others in the collecting > world that the collection is available. BAD idea. The will and probate system has been around since the dawn of law. Don't screw up something that works with a competing, well established, well run, and effective system. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jan 24 16:49:45 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 17:49:45 -0500 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5C6845.5000808@cimmeri.com> References: <4B5C6845.5000808@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: > What is the best thing, today, that I can tell my family about what to do > with this collection if I were to check out? ? I really don't know the > answer to that question. The best thing your family can say to you is: Call an estate lawyer. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jan 24 16:59:02 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 17:59:02 -0500 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5C8E55.3050105@cimmeri.com> References: <4B5C8E55.3050105@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: > Of course, but that wasn't my point. ?My point is that I observe there to > be, in general, LESS interest in collecting items that predate our own > existence. ? For example, ?I know many more people who own classic cars like > Mustangs simply because they always wanted one while growing up, or maybe > had one... than those collectors who own Ford Model Ts. Everything collectible has a generational aspect. With your example, the generation that connected with Model Ts is gone, and interest has diminished. It has not, however, died, and will likely never die. Our computers are the same way - 50 years from now, the plethora of 1980 era micros with be in the same boat. Many will be likely junked as interest will have waned, but later, interest will level off, and the survivors will be cherished. > ?Wonder how others feel? ? ?Will a Dell PC ever be collectible? ? Are Apples > the only ones that might stand a chance? ? ?Are all computers now merely > appliances with zero personality? Everything that man has ever made has become collectible. Computers will not break that long term rule, no matter how we today hate a Dell running Windows. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 24 17:44:28 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 15:44:28 -0800 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: References: , <4B5C8E55.3050105@cimmeri.com>, Message-ID: <4B5C6ADC.24622.18A0F74@cclist.sydex.com> >> ?Wonder how others feel? ? ?Will a Dell PC ever be collectible? ? > > Are Apples the only ones that might stand a chance? ? ?Are all > > computers now merely appliances with zero personality? On Erik's VC Forum, there have been two notable requests. One was for a P1 PCChips motherboard, probably close to the bottom of the barrel in terms of quality. The other was for a Packard-Bell 486 desktop. Both were from people who had used them as their first computer. Are Yugos collectable yet? --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jan 24 18:01:02 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 19:01:02 -0500 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5C6ADC.24622.18A0F74@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B5C8E55.3050105@cimmeri.com> <4B5C6ADC.24622.18A0F74@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Are Yugos collectable yet? US market Yugos are quite collectible. -- Will From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Jan 24 19:39:26 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 20:39:26 -0500 Subject: PDP 8A value? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201001242039.26112.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 24 January 2010, 9000 VAX wrote: > 10% > #280456133366 > > Thanks. "This listing (280456133366) has been removed, or this item is not available." Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From vrs at msn.com Sun Jan 24 20:27:27 2010 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 18:27:27 -0800 Subject: Museums References: <4B5C6845.5000808@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: From: "William Donzelli", Sunday, January 24, 2010 2:47 PM > BAD idea. The will and probate system has been around since the dawn > of law. Don't screw up something that works with a competing, well > established, well run, and effective system. You have a *lot* more faith in lawers, courts, etc. than I do! Vince From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Jan 24 20:38:49 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 20:38:49 -0600 Subject: BNC to VGA Cable In-Reply-To: <4B5C86C3.8090302@e-bbes.com> References: <4B5C86C3.8090302@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <4B5D0439.8010003@oldskool.org> On 1/24/2010 11:43 AM, e.stiebler wrote: > Hi all, > a source for a BNC to VGA cable ? > (Yes, I have a soldering iron, but like to buy some ;-)) > > The other way around (VGA->BNC) is easy to get, but don't find any > BNC->VGA(15 pin) Tried monoprice.com? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jan 24 20:51:44 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 18:51:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: from William Donzelli at "Jan 24, 10 07:01:02 pm" Message-ID: <201001250251.o0P2picU011590@floodgap.com> > > Are Yugos collectable yet? > > US market Yugos are quite collectible. Especially running. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Ninety-nine percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name. ------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jan 24 20:57:34 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 18:57:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <201001241512.26267.pat@computer-refuge.org> from Patrick Finnegan at "Jan 24, 10 03:12:26 pm" Message-ID: <201001250257.o0P2vYiH015146@floodgap.com> > It depends. "Home computers" are generally appliances, but there are > still interesting computers being produced, IMO. Stuff like Sun Niagra > (UltraSparc T1/T2) series machines, IBM mainframes, SiCortex's machines, > Crays, and other high-dollar/high end machines. Even things like the XO > OLPC, Asus Eee PC, Apple original iPhone and iPod, etc, are unique > enough (or were when they came out) that I'd say they are collectible. > (that's not to say that I find them interesting, but I can understand > someone finding them to be interesting). I was reading an interview with Richard Stallman, and while I have some opinions about Mr Stallman not germane to this mailing list, I have to admit the man has an intriguing computer: a Lemote Yeelong, based on the Chinese Godson/Loongson MIPS chips. http://richard.stallman.usesthis.com/ I know China is putting big renminbi into MIPS so they don't have to deal with the licensing headaches of x86, but it's cool to see such a device, and I have to admit that Mr Stallman practises what he preaches. I'm even tempted to get one just to see what those systems are like. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Do me a favour: don't breed. -- "Sledge Hammer!" --------------------------- From rws at ripco.com Sun Jan 24 21:20:24 2010 From: rws at ripco.com (Richard Schauer) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 21:20:24 -0600 (CST) Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5C6ADC.24622.18A0F74@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B5C8E55.3050105@cimmeri.com>, <4B5C6ADC.24622.18A0F74@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Jan 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Are Yugos collectable yet? Well, it's funny you ask; I happen to think so. So I acquired six of them, two of which were for parts for the other (decent) four. Some types of Yugo are indeed quite collectible; the major type that I don't have is the Cabrio convertible, which still goes for a decent sum. Yes, I realize you asked your question in jest. Richard Schauer '81 DeLorean DMC-12 '80 CVI Comutacar electric '88 Yugo GV x 2 '88 Yugo GVX '90 Yugo GV+ '75 Suzuki RE-5 motorcycle ... and a lot of classic computers packed in around the cars :-) From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 24 21:20:59 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 19:20:59 -0800 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <201001250257.o0P2vYiH015146@floodgap.com> References: <201001241512.26267.pat@computer-refuge.org> from Patrick Finnegan at "Jan 24, 10 03:12:26 pm", <201001250257.o0P2vYiH015146@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4B5C9D9B.10462.250494E@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Jan 2010 at 18:57, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I know China is putting big renminbi into MIPS so they don't have to > deal with the licensing headaches of x86, but it's cool to see such a > device, and I have to admit that Mr Stallman practises what he > preaches. I'm even tempted to get one just to see what those systems > are like. If you like that sort of thing and want to get collectable, try looking for a NEC Bungo Mini. Mid 80's, runs CP/M with full Kanji. Very small--not much bigger than a Netbook. --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jan 24 21:35:57 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 19:35:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5C9D9B.10462.250494E@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Jan 24, 10 07:20:59 pm" Message-ID: <201001250335.o0P3Zwiq011132@floodgap.com> > > I know China is putting big renminbi into MIPS so they don't have to > > deal with the licensing headaches of x86, but it's cool to see such a > > device, and I have to admit that Mr Stallman practises what he > > preaches. I'm even tempted to get one just to see what those systems > > are like. > > If you like that sort of thing and want to get collectable, try > looking for a NEC Bungo Mini. Mid 80's, runs CP/M with full Kanji. > Very small--not much bigger than a Netbook. No, I mean Godson/Loongson systems, not necessarily Asian computers -- my Tomy Pyuuta systems scratch that itch :) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "You Only Live Twice" ------------------------------ From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jan 24 21:36:26 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 19:36:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: from Richard Schauer at "Jan 24, 10 09:20:24 pm" Message-ID: <201001250336.o0P3aQhp014752@floodgap.com> > Richard Schauer > '81 DeLorean DMC-12 > '80 CVI Comutacar electric > '88 Yugo GV x 2 > '88 Yugo GVX > '90 Yugo GV+ > '75 Suzuki RE-5 motorcycle > ... and a lot of classic computers packed in around the cars :-) Dang. What, um, is your, uh, street address? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I'm watching the cat litter clump." ------ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 24 21:39:07 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 19:39:07 -0800 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: References: , <4B5C6ADC.24622.18A0F74@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B5CA1DB.19809.260E273@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Jan 2010 at 21:20, Richard Schauer wrote: > Yes, I realize you asked your question in jest. Yes, I suppose that goes toward the "you can collect anything". I suspect that someone has a collection of Studebaker Scotsman models. Perception changes with time. I can remember seeing my first Ford Mustang and thinking how stupid it looked. Similarly, I suspect that some of the uber-ugly cars on today's roads will be collector's items. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jan 24 21:44:49 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 22:44:49 -0500 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5CA1DB.19809.260E273@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B5C6ADC.24622.18A0F74@cclist.sydex.com> <4B5CA1DB.19809.260E273@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Yes, I suppose that goes toward the "you can collect anything". ?I > suspect that someone has a collection of Studebaker Scotsman models. ...and yes, there is a registry. -- Will From keithvz at verizon.net Sun Jan 24 21:51:58 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 22:51:58 -0500 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5C8E55.3050105@cimmeri.com> References: <4B5C8E55.3050105@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <4B5D155E.1050005@verizon.net> js at cimmeri.com wrote: > I don't see any > computers in most of the 90's, and none at all from 2000 onwards that > I'd ever want to collect. Wonder how others feel? Will a Dell PC > ever be collectible? Are Apples the only ones that might stand a > chance? Are all computers now merely appliances with zero personality? Good questions, John. My computer of choice is the Amiga. While I'm still trying to get to the bottom of my fascination with the Amiga, one of the reasons is because I grew up with the machine. Many summers between high school years I spent programming, and learning, and hacking, and so on. But also because of the community that was built around this special machine. During the late 80's and early 90's, the IBMs and clones had already taken a pretty good foothold, and so the majority of the software/hardware support for was PCs. This divide created a stronger minority, and the need to stick together produced pretty strong devotees. If you look at places like amiga.org, english amiga board, amigaworld, etc --- this devotion dies hard! The amiga was special in terms of design and held several technical advantages over designs at the time(and some might argue, as I've seen recently, some aspects of today's designs) We were different, and we were better. And we had personality. I spent large sums of money (credit, actually) upgrading my A500 to add hard drive, faster processor, more memory, etc. This held me off until Feb 1998 where I just couldn't deny the technology advances that PC's had made. And the desire to finally have access to all of the software available for Windows. Amiga freeware/shareware was good, and fairly robust, but just couldn't touch the PC base. So I also like playing with my old amiga because older technology is more accessible to the hobbyist. It is often easier to understand. Affordable tools can deal with the single-digit megahertz clocks in comparison to single-digit gigahertz. Cheap logic analyzers, oscilloscopes, etc can be used. And it's more discrete. Less condensed. Getting to the heart is easier. And plus, it's unique. Not everyone has/had one, but they were popular enough. I can't tell you how many people I run into that say, "Oh, Amigas. Yeah, I had a 500. I loved that machine." I hear that all the time. So I recently decommissioned the PII 333mhz Dell I bought in 1998. It was powered on for about 11 years in a row -- had uptimes of 1.5years in some cases. Zero hardware failure. It was worth the $3k I paid for it in 1998. But do I care about it? No. It seems hardly different from the P4 that replaced it. Or the quad core that replaced that. Have there been technological advances? Definitely. But there's just no soul. Sometimes I ran Windows, sometimes Linux. So it's not really the OS. It's something that is hard to put my finger on. I've heard and seen the Mac crowd. And many amigans went the way of the Mac. And I've seen some people talk about their Macs in sort of the same way I talk(ed) about the amiga. But there's just something about Apple that I just can't stand. I'm not sure if it's the elitist attitude, or the prices, or the forced-lock-ins. I see my current machines as tools. As soon as they lose enough life, I get rid of them, and buy a new one. I simply don't have the same connection with the computer. It just doesn't feel alive. I've seen often that fascination comes with ignorance. You know, sort of the "Anything so technologically advanced is indistinguishable from magic"-concept. And so as I learn more about this stuff, the magic-factor dissipates and unfortunately, I'm left with completely understandable and rationally explainable concepts. And so it ruins the magic somewhat. This has NOT happened w/ the Amiga because I'm left with the feeling of, "oh, these guys were smart." They couldn't do xyz with raw cpu power, but instead used the graphics chip to encode/decode MFM. Or whatever. There's a feeling of ingenuity and cleverness that is either a> not there today b> hidden between so many layers of abstraction that it's nearly impossible to put your finger on it. If I could have lunch with someone famous, I'd pick the designer of the Amiga, or the Atari ST, or the TRS-80, or maybe some early apples even. How about someone who designs current motherboards for PCs?? Not so much. While I think that the standard off-the-shelf dell/gateway(whatever ibm clone here) cannot be ignored for their role in making computers more available, cheaper, and more powerful, I just don't see their uniqueness. What is it about PCs today that separates them from ones five years ago, or 10 years ago? Clock speed? Memory? Windows 3.1 -> Vista? More colors? Better sound? Are there groups of young people today that find themselves emotionally attached to the computers of today? Last, but not least, I think it's interesting the whole lifetime of a technology in relation to supply and demand. 1. Best out there 2. Drops in price 3. Becomes commodity 4. Becomes obsolete 5. Has no value. 6. Time passes. 7. Becomes rare 8. Prices increase 9. Niche market is formed. Once something becomes obsolete, it's not often preserved because it seems to have no value, and then you're posting on goofy forums and paying $300 years later to get your hands on one. I apologize for my verbosity. Keith From keithvz at verizon.net Sun Jan 24 21:54:44 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 22:54:44 -0500 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: References: , <4B5C8E55.3050105@cimmeri.com>, <4B5C6ADC.24622.18A0F74@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B5D1604.4020709@verizon.net> Richard Schauer wrote: > Richard Schauer > '81 DeLorean DMC-12 This is the one that hurts the most. On my things to do before I die list, buying one of those, and installing something that looks like a flux capacitor is most definitely on there. :) Keith From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Jan 24 22:25:52 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 22:25:52 -0600 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5D155E.1050005@verizon.net> References: <4B5C8E55.3050105@cimmeri.com> <4B5D155E.1050005@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B5D1D50.8020902@oldskool.org> On 1/24/2010 9:51 PM, Keith M wrote: > We were different, and we were better. And we had personality. You can find personality in almost any computer subculture if you look hard enough. I've been involved with the "demoscene" since 1990 and no matter what platform a demo is written on, there's a lot of personality. I'd argue that IBM machinery definitely had a personality -- reliable, solid, strong, definitive. Artistic or creative? No. But intriguing all the same. > So I recently decommissioned the PII 333mhz Dell I bought in 1998. It > was powered on for about 11 years in a row -- had uptimes of 1.5years in > some cases. Zero hardware failure. It was worth the $3k I paid for it in > 1998. > > But do I care about it? No. It seems hardly different from the P4 that > replaced it. Or the quad core that replaced that. Have there been > technological advances? Definitely. But there's just no soul. This changes when you build your own. My current machine was built from hand-picked parts meant for a specific purpose (chewing through high-def video). I spec'd every part not only for that purpose but also in regards to each other; the end result is something that has my personality infused in it (and as a side effect, it is rock solid reliable). I call it "The Combine" and it lives up to its name. > This has NOT happened w/ the Amiga because I'm left with the feeling of, > "oh, these guys were smart." They couldn't do xyz with raw cpu power, > but instead used the graphics chip to encode/decode MFM. Or whatever. > There's a feeling of ingenuity and cleverness that is either > > a> not there today > b> hidden between so many layers of abstraction that it's nearly > impossible to put your finger on it. Cleverness is definitely alive and well but you might not be looking in the right place. Cleverness, for me, was "making do with what you have" and performing the seemingly impossible (see prior note about the demoscene). Today, sometimes that is taking what a modern graphics card can do and figuring out what it is capable of. Here's an example to blow you away (download link provided too): http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=52938 It's an executable that produces a realistic mountain range with motion blur and music -- and the executable is 4K. Seriously, a windows .exe that is 4K that produces what I just described. Listing all of the tricks that made it possible would take hundreds of lines, by several clever people. So it is there, if you know where to look. > What is it about PCs today that separates them from ones five years ago, > or 10 years ago? Clock speed? Memory? Windows 3.1 -> Vista? More colors? > Better sound? Cores, actually. And that is also an interesting problem to solve (how can you break your problem up into sections that multithread well?) > Are there groups of young people today that find themselves emotionally > attached to the computers of today? Yes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demoscene -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ragooman at comcast.net Sun Jan 24 22:40:48 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 23:40:48 -0500 Subject: Wills....Re: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5B54BB.31557.258675E@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B5BB7DF.2070103@comcast.net>, <4B5B54BB.31557.258675E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B5D20D0.9050800@comcast.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 23 Jan 2010 at 19:06, Dan Roganti wrote: > > >> From what I read, probate assets cannot be transferred to heirs and >> other beneficiaries (museum) until debts are settled. >> > > Probate where there is no will can take a very long time (read: > years). Even with a will, probate can take months in some > jurisdictions. > > The prudent thing to do as you settle into your golden years is to > transfer title to your assets to the person or entity that you > intend. Arrange a lease-back to you for, oh, $1 per year. > > There are two immediate benefits--the first is that you get to take > the tax credit immediately if you're donating to a non-profit > 501(c)3. The other is that once you depart to take your place at the > great abacus in the sky, there's no going through probate or any > question of title. The assets are not part of your estate. > This sound like a very good option to use. Thanks for the tip. =Dan http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jan 24 22:55:05 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 23:55:05 -0500 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5D155E.1050005@verizon.net> References: <4B5C8E55.3050105@cimmeri.com> <4B5D155E.1050005@verizon.net> Message-ID: > Are there groups of young people today that find themselves emotionally > attached to the computers of today? There will be - definitely. Human nature does not change, generation to generation. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jan 24 22:58:36 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 23:58:36 -0500 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5D1D50.8020902@oldskool.org> References: <4B5C8E55.3050105@cimmeri.com> <4B5D155E.1050005@verizon.net> <4B5D1D50.8020902@oldskool.org> Message-ID: > I'd argue that IBM machinery definitely had a personality -- reliable, > solid, strong, definitive. ?Artistic or creative? ?No. ?But intriguing all > the same. (vaguely related) Except for the beige box 70s and 80s, IBM hardware has consistently managed to get high praise from the industrial design folks. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 24 23:04:55 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 00:04:55 -0500 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5D155E.1050005@verizon.net> References: <4B5C8E55.3050105@cimmeri.com> <4B5D155E.1050005@verizon.net> Message-ID: <83F4300A-3E2C-4CAA-A1E4-AE3F17FD53FF@neurotica.com> On Jan 24, 2010, at 10:51 PM, Keith M wrote: > But there's just something about Apple that I just can't stand. > I'm not sure if it's the elitist attitude, or the prices, or the > forced-lock-ins. What lock-ins would those be, specifically? My main desktop machine is (right now) a Mac, because it is (right now) the best way to get a very fast UNIX machine on a desktop. I suffer no lock-ins of any kind. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 24 23:47:13 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 21:47:13 -0800 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: References: , <4B5CA1DB.19809.260E273@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B5CBFE1.5379.2D62D00@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Jan 2010 at 22:44, William Donzelli wrote: > > Yes, I suppose that goes toward the "you can collect anything". ?I > > suspect that someone has a collection of Studebaker Scotsman models. > > ...and yes, there is a registry. So when do you think the price of a Trabant will pass $50K? --Chuck From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Jan 25 00:40:14 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 01:40:14 -0500 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <83F4300A-3E2C-4CAA-A1E4-AE3F17FD53FF@neurotica.com> References: <4B5C8E55.3050105@cimmeri.com> <4B5D155E.1050005@verizon.net> <83F4300A-3E2C-4CAA-A1E4-AE3F17FD53FF@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B5D3CCE.9030401@verizon.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 24, 2010, at 10:51 PM, Keith M wrote: >> But there's just something about Apple that I just can't stand. I'm >> not sure if it's the elitist attitude, or the prices, or the >> forced-lock-ins. > > What lock-ins would those be, specifically? My main desktop machine > is (right now) a Mac, because it is (right now) the best way to get a > very fast UNIX machine on a desktop. I suffer no lock-ins of any kind. > > -Dave > Hi Dave, SO you admit the elitist attitude and price part? :) For as long as I've been on the internet, you think I would have learned by now to avoid posting flame-bait like that. There are tons of ipod/itunes and iphone issues abound (see ongoing Sherman Antitrust Act lawsuits, like slattery vs apple. This suit has been renamed, and I'm too lazy to find it). If you've ever own an ipod, you know exactly what the problem is. You must use itunes to manage your ipod, and it only manages your ipod. Want to just load mp3s onto your ipod without itunes? You can't do it (w/o running 3rd party unsupported software that risks damaging the stability of your ipod). Every other mp3 player sold(OK, I'm probably pushing my luck here) supports simply copying the .mp3s directly onto the player. Proprietary .AAC extensions, DRM issues, problems w/ corrupted ipods and getting music that you paid for off it. Moving/switching/upgrading ipods. Apple charging for removing drm, etc. I was mainly talking about the hardware<---->OS locks. According to the license agreement for OSX, you must install OSX on Apple Hardware. If your apple hardware breaks, you have to buy more, expensive, apple hardware to replace it. You are forced to buy their hardware to upgrade. Completely different situation with Windows, Linux, and so on. You can use any available (compatible) hardware, and if my dell breaks, I buy a new Dell, Gateway, Sony, etc etc etc. I don't know about video cards, etc, but the pure number of hardware options available for Windows/Linux users simply kills any mac offering. Isn't simply having much more choice about what hardware to use better than being given a smaller group to choose from? http://www.pcworld.com/article/181200/bad_apple_five_classic_apple_marketing_tactics_that_lock_you_in.html Has this stuff changed recently? Keith From pinball at telus.net Sun Jan 24 18:15:38 2010 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 16:15:38 -0800 Subject: Znner diode data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B5CE2AA.5010006@telus.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> On 23/01/2010 20:12, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>> The quick versions :=20 >>> =20 >>> Does anyone know of a book or website which gives brief characteristics= >>> >> =20 >> >>> of zemer diodes?=20 >>> > > Thanks to everyone who has replied. I now know it's a 36V 5W zener, I > also know a place I can get one (not that expensive either). > > But I would still an equivalent for 'Towers International Transistor > Selector', but for Zners, useful. One for SCRs/thyristors/triacs/etc > would be useful too. Does such a thing exist? > > >>> The actual device I am looking for info on is a 1N5365 , but knowing=20 >>> where to look in future would be useful. >>> >> That's a 36V 5W zener. I usually look things like that up on Farnell's=20 >> website -- just go to http://uk.farnell.com/ and type the part number=20 >> > > This only works if Farnell stock the part in question :-). I didn't > expect the original component for a 30-year-old printer to be avaiablke > that easily. Farnell also sell the 2 power transistors that failed at the > same time (2N5884 and 2N5886 -- they're not cheap, but they are available. > > > -tony > > > The old TI Diode/Transistor data book is one book that you are looking for...unfortunately it was published in something like 1975 and you will have to track one down. It lists diodes, including Zener, Tunnel, Rectifier, and others - fat sucker at around 300 pages or so. It is at my shop so I can't give you the exact title, size, or year. Motorola data books from the 70s and 80s covered diodes quite well - nice pictures of the diode and comparison rated by voltage and wattage... ECG/TCG catalog is a third option... John :-#)# From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 25 02:10:26 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 09:10:26 +0100 Subject: Large pdp-8/i on eBay In-Reply-To: <4B5CCD16.4050007@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <84C392B587EF45C8B03037CE0D634C57@vrsxp> <506874a586e686f6d1c86a81f2516d56.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4B521749.5010101@hachti.de> <6d6501091001241405n50e6948av845d8d759671578b@mail.gmail.com> <4B5CCD16.4050007@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > Chris Halarewich wrote: >> It ended up going for $15,000 US! > Any idea what the list price would have been? > Ben. > > > Well, I guess the list price was the reserve price. There is a big gap between the winning bidder and the next higher bidder. Quite a good amount, I thought it would go for around 10 - 12k. Just wondering what my collection would be worth then...... -- Certified : VCP 3.x, SCSI 3.x SCSA S10, SCNA S10 www.groenenberg.net www.witte-kat-batterijen.nl From mike at brickfieldspark.org Mon Jan 25 03:19:01 2010 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 09:19:01 -0000 Subject: [personal] Shaft encoder in HP2631B printer References: Message-ID: <005001ca9d9f$6fa585c0$961ca8c0@mss.local> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 7:14 PM Subject: [personal] Shaft encoder in HP2631B printer > This is a long shot... On the other hand, there are people here who've > done all sorts of odd things, and the only silly question is one that's > not asked (or something like that). > > As I mentioned yesterday (when I asked about zneer diode data), I've got > an HP2631B printer that's gone crazy. I had anohter quick look at it > today, and it appears that one problem is the shaft encoder on the right > hand end of the carriage leadscrew. This connects by a 10 way cable > (integral with the encoder) to the 'printer logic' PCB, 6 of the pins on > the connector sseem to be used, 2 grouds, 2 +5V and the 2 quadrature > output signals. Those 2 outputs are buffered by a couple of sections of a > '14, the outputs of that go to testpoints (and elswehere, of course). Sounds like it may be a HEDS or HEDL encoder as it's HP, any chance of a photo or a p#. Mike. > > Anyway, both those testpoints are low all the time (turning the leadscrew > by hand, I've not fixed the motor drive amplifer yet!). The outputs from > the encoder are high all the time (so the problem isn't the '14, more's > the pity), they are genuinely high, not floating. And there don't seem to > be any pull-ups on the printer logic PCB< so the 'high' is coming from > the encoder. > > Anyway. Iv'e read the HP service manual (on http://www.hpmuseum.net) and Link to the manual ? > it appears you need special tools to remove and replace the encoder. The > encoder disk is epoxied to the neadscrew, you need a special puller to > break the bond and an alignment tool to get the encoder disk the right > distance insde the encoder housing when you refit it. > > Of coruse I don;t ahve the tools... > > Has anyone ever done this? Maybe the same tools, or something like them, > were used with THe shaft encoders that HP sold as loose componets. Any > thoughts? > We use HEDS an HEDL's all the time, no special tools. > -tony > > > > > > From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Mon Jan 25 06:11:36 2010 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 13:11:36 +0100 Subject: Recurring subject: Goo removal In-Reply-To: <4B5C45D9.1656.F97BEB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B5C45D9.1656.F97BEB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100125121136.GM24075@lug-owl.de> On Sun, 2010-01-24 13:06:33 -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Upon opening up the unit, I discovered that the rubber rollers that > manipulate the magazine as well those that actually feed the cassette > had turned to black goo and spread it all over the place. I'm facing a similar problem. The rubber feets of some of my DECstations and VAXstations got somewhat "fluid" and rinsed down as a sticky, black drop. Very nasty stuff :( Any idea how to solve that sticky stuff away? MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: Friends are relatives you make for yourself. the second : From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Mon Jan 25 08:45:31 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 06:45:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: The new 1984 Apple Tablet In-Reply-To: <20100125121136.GM24075@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <162996.37704.qm@web113518.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/24/frog-design-outs-the-apple-tablet-that-could-have-been-in-198/ From rws at ripco.com Mon Jan 25 08:47:58 2010 From: rws at ripco.com (Richard Schauer) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 08:47:58 -0600 (CST) Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <201001250336.o0P3aQhp014752@floodgap.com> References: <201001250336.o0P3aQhp014752@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Jan 2010, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Richard Schauer >> '81 DeLorean DMC-12 >> '80 CVI Comutacar electric >> '88 Yugo GV x 2 >> '88 Yugo GVX >> '90 Yugo GV+ >> '75 Suzuki RE-5 motorcycle >> ... and a lot of classic computers packed in around the cars :-) > > Dang. What, um, is your, uh, street address? Yeah right! I'm in the northwest suburbs of Chicago. There's actually quite strong owner's communities for all four of the above types of "unusual" vehicle, DeLorean and Citicar/Comutacar being the most cohesive. Richard From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jan 25 09:34:56 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 07:34:56 -0800 Subject: Recurring subject: Goo removal In-Reply-To: References: <4B5C45D9.1656.F97BEB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B5DBA20.1070504@bitsavers.org> On 1/24/10 1:29 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > The GOO gone product line works well for most things (reminds me I need > to get some more). I like the label remover stuff they make, no idea > what is inside. > The "citrus based" cleaners are mostly naptha. Material Safety Data Sheets list the ingredients. From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Jan 25 09:36:48 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 07:36:48 -0800 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5D3CCE.9030401@verizon.net> References: <4B5C8E55.3050105@cimmeri.com> <4B5D155E.1050005@verizon.net> <83F4300A-3E2C-4CAA-A1E4-AE3F17FD53FF@neurotica.com>, <4B5D3CCE.9030401@verizon.net> Message-ID: The problem I've found with all that choice is that it's choice of trash, garbage and crap. PC hardware has become such a commodity market that there doesn't seem to be any quality to it, no matter how much you pay. It's assumed to be a consumable that you'll throw away and replace in six months or a year. I'm pretty happy with my PowerBook G4 and my dual G4 desktops. Yes, they're no longer made, but they work great for everything I want. They are useful appliances to support me in playing with the computers I really care about. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Keith M [keithvz at verizon.net] Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 10:40 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Museums Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 24, 2010, at 10:51 PM, Keith M wrote: >> But there's just something about Apple that I just can't stand. I'm >> not sure if it's the elitist attitude, or the prices, or the >> forced-lock-ins. > > What lock-ins would those be, specifically? My main desktop machine > is (right now) a Mac, because it is (right now) the best way to get a > very fast UNIX machine on a desktop. I suffer no lock-ins of any kind. > > -Dave > Hi Dave, SO you admit the elitist attitude and price part? :) For as long as I've been on the internet, you think I would have learned by now to avoid posting flame-bait like that. There are tons of ipod/itunes and iphone issues abound (see ongoing Sherman Antitrust Act lawsuits, like slattery vs apple. This suit has been renamed, and I'm too lazy to find it). If you've ever own an ipod, you know exactly what the problem is. You must use itunes to manage your ipod, and it only manages your ipod. Want to just load mp3s onto your ipod without itunes? You can't do it (w/o running 3rd party unsupported software that risks damaging the stability of your ipod). Every other mp3 player sold(OK, I'm probably pushing my luck here) supports simply copying the .mp3s directly onto the player. Proprietary .AAC extensions, DRM issues, problems w/ corrupted ipods and getting music that you paid for off it. Moving/switching/upgrading ipods. Apple charging for removing drm, etc. I was mainly talking about the hardware<---->OS locks. According to the license agreement for OSX, you must install OSX on Apple Hardware. If your apple hardware breaks, you have to buy more, expensive, apple hardware to replace it. You are forced to buy their hardware to upgrade. Completely different situation with Windows, Linux, and so on. You can use any available (compatible) hardware, and if my dell breaks, I buy a new Dell, Gateway, Sony, etc etc etc. I don't know about video cards, etc, but the pure number of hardware options available for Windows/Linux users simply kills any mac offering. Isn't simply having much more choice about what hardware to use better than being given a smaller group to choose from? http://www.pcworld.com/article/181200/bad_apple_five_classic_apple_marketing_tactics_that_lock_you_in.html Has this stuff changed recently? Keith From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jan 25 09:48:31 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 08:48:31 -0700 Subject: Recurring subject: Goo removal In-Reply-To: <4B5DBA20.1070504@bitsavers.org> References: <4B5C45D9.1656.F97BEB@cclist.sydex.com> <4B5DBA20.1070504@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4B5DBD4F.3020000@jetnet.ab.ca> Al Kossow wrote: > The "citrus based" cleaners are mostly naptha. > Material Safety Data Sheets list the ingredients. Now you can have a lemon sented zippo . :) > > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jan 25 09:48:44 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 07:48:44 -0800 Subject: Recurring subject: Goo removal In-Reply-To: <4B5DBA20.1070504@bitsavers.org> References: <4B5C45D9.1656.F97BEB@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4B5DBA20.1070504@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 07:34:56 -0800 > From: aek at bitsavers.org > To: > Subject: Re: Recurring subject: Goo removal > > On 1/24/10 1:29 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > The GOO gone product line works well for most things (reminds me I need > > to get some more). I like the label remover stuff they make, no idea > > what is inside. > > > > The "citrus based" cleaners are mostly naptha. > Material Safety Data Sheets list the ingredients. > Hi Orange oil is remarkable stuff. Besides taking off lables, it kills ants and termites. Actually it is the naptha loosens the stucky stuff but it is the orange oil that keeps it from stucking back on the surface. A good combination. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390710/direct/01/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jan 25 09:53:13 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 08:53:13 -0700 Subject: Recurring subject: Goo removal In-Reply-To: References: <4B5C45D9.1656.F97BEB@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4B5DBA20.1070504@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4B5DBE69.50203@jetnet.ab.ca> dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > > Orange oil is remarkable stuff. Besides taking off lables, > > it kills ants and termites. > > Actually it is the naptha loosens the stucky stuff but > > it is the orange oil that keeps it from stucking back > > on the surface. A good combination. > > Dwight > SPLAT! No I can't quite clean spam from the keyboard yet! > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390710/direct/01/ From onymouse at garlic.com Mon Jan 25 09:52:58 2010 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 07:52:58 -0800 Subject: LLC's? (Re: Wills....Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <4B5D20D0.9050800@comcast.net> References: , <4B5BB7DF.2070103@comcast.net>, <4B5B54BB.31557.258675E@cclist.sydex.com> <4B5D20D0.9050800@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4B5DBE5A.4050906@garlic.com> Eh... brainfart: If the collection were transferred to a (nonprofit?) llc, then it should be excluded from the will and from probate, making it easier to transfer or liquidate. Some people use corporations to protect their assets and to avoid having them liquidated in probate. Depends on which state the llc incorporates in I suspect, and how the llc is formed, and it's purpose, and how sharp your lawyer is, and whether or not your collection can be considered your investment in the company, et cetera. Hmmm, perhaps several people with their own private collections could form a llc and keep their collections where they are? BTW, I is not a lawyer. and this is not legal advice. 'kay? == jd Any clod can have the facts, but having an opinion is an art. -- Charles McCabe -- From onymouse at garlic.com Mon Jan 25 09:34:59 2010 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 07:34:59 -0800 Subject: Museum for the defining In-Reply-To: References: <4B5A25B5.8030201@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <4B5DBA23.7060700@garlic.com> Dave McGuire ????????: > On Jan 22, 2010, at 5:24 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: >> mu?se?um (my?-z???m) n. Abbr. mus. 1. A building, place, or >> institution devoted to the acquisition, conservation, study, >> exhibition, and educational interpretation of objects having >> scientific, historical, or artistic value. {American Heritage} >> >> By this def, Robert's home (a "place") and website qualify >> collectively as a modest museum. I think it's better to argue over >> the aspects of his museum -- such as quality, size, rank amongst >> others, etc -- rather than what word Robert has likely casually >> ascribed to his purpose. > > We're squabbling over the definition of terms which are changing over > time. Web sites didn't exist when the definition above was written. > Things change! > It was once in fashion to call certain websites "virtual museums". Not mentioned in the American Heritage Dictionary's definition, but certainly part of the commonly accepted definition, if not description of a museum is that it is generally open to the public. For museums which are private and closed to the public, the term "private collection" tended to be used. By the broadest definition so far discussed, any collection of anything could be referred to as a musuem, including Jay Leno's car collection, various coin and stamp collections, pop-top tab collections, and even someone's collection of used kleenex, and it need not be open to the public. But these times they are a-changin', and so are languages, not the least of which is English. By the time a dictionary is printed it's obsolete. Even the OED, which is the most up-to-date (and exhaustively thorough) dictionary, is unable to keep itself abreast of current word usage: It's always at least months or even a year behind. Since it has become possible to publicly display and share a private collection via a "virtual museum" website, and there is a tendency to simplify language, it is not surprising that the word "virtual" is being dropped and only "museum" used. So the argument about what constitutes a museum is, or will shortly be, moot. No? == jd The penalty for laughing in a courtroom is six months in jail; if it were not for this penalty, the jury would never hear the evidence. -- H. L. Mencken -- From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jan 25 10:02:57 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 08:02:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5D3CCE.9030401@verizon.net> from Keith M at "Jan 25, 10 01:40:14 am" Message-ID: <201001251602.o0PG2vX9018022@floodgap.com> > Isn't simply having much more choice about what hardware to use better > than being given a smaller group to choose from? Also, emacs sucks. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- armadillo, n. the act of providing weapons to a Spanish pickle. ------------ From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 10:03:16 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 10:03:16 -0600 Subject: General machine cleaning (was Re: Recurring subject: Goo removal) Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001250803p4f77e942q39cb73c8bded26e2@mail.gmail.com> Not sure how it is about taking goo off, but for cleaning up old machines in general, I like those Magic Erasers from Mr Clean. I haven't looked into the ingredients, but whatever's in it, they hit the nail of the head. If you have some machines that have marker writing in stead of an asset tag, this might take it off. For me, it's worked in some cases and not others. It will take those general hard to remove scuffs off also. I start cleaning new machines by first scrubbing them with baby wipes, then a magic eraser. brian From evan at snarc.net Mon Jan 25 10:19:33 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 11:19:33 -0500 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: References: <4B5C8E55.3050105@cimmeri.com> <4B5D155E.1050005@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B5DC495.80309@snarc.net> >> Are there groups of young people today that find themselves emotionally attached to the computers of today? >> > There will be - definitely. > > Human nature does not change, generation to generation. > Yeah really. I'm not sure who wrote the message before Will's reply, but to that person: ever hear of the iPod/iPhone? Or of Crackberry addiction? The young (and old too) are perhaps MORE emotionally attached to their computers than the rest of us ever were to our minicomputers, Altairs, and Apple IIs. But, the definition of "computer" changed. See? I pick and choose which words can change. Museum isn't one of them. ;) From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Jan 25 10:20:49 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 11:20:49 -0500 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <201001251602.o0PG2vX9018022@floodgap.com> References: <201001251602.o0PG2vX9018022@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4B5DC4E1.2040109@verizon.net> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Isn't simply having much more choice about what hardware to use better >> than being given a smaller group to choose from? > > Also, emacs sucks. Hahaha. I really should know better. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emacs Eight Megabytes And Constantly Swapping Emacs Makes A Computer Slow Eventually Mallocs All Computer Storage Eventually Makes All Computers Sick alt.religion.emacs. haha. or vi-vi-vi, 666. What's wrong with these people? :) Keith From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Mon Jan 25 10:21:26 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 08:21:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5D3CCE.9030401@verizon.net> References: <4B5C8E55.3050105@cimmeri.com> <4B5D155E.1050005@verizon.net> <83F4300A-3E2C-4CAA-A1E4-AE3F17FD53FF@neurotica.com> <4B5D3CCE.9030401@verizon.net> Message-ID: <304375.66919.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I'm a self-avowed former Apple hater, so let me address some of the Apple hate below. ;) ________________________________ From: Keith M To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Mon, January 25, 2010 12:40:14 AM Subject: Re: Museums >There are tons of ipod/itunes and iphone issues abound (see ongoing Sherman Antitrust Act lawsuits, like slattery vs apple. >This suit has been renamed, and I'm too lazy to find it). If you've ever own an ipod, you know exactly what the problem is. You >must use itunes to manage your ipod, and it only manages your ipod. Want to just load mp3s onto your ipod without itunes? >You can't do it (w/o running 3rd party unsupported software that risks damaging the stability of your ipod). Every other mp3 >player sold(OK, I'm probably pushing my luck here) supports simply copying the .mp3s directly onto the player. Proprietary >.AAC extensions, DRM issues, problems w/ corrupted ipods and getting music that you paid for off it. Moving/switching>/upgrading ipods. Apple charging for removing drm, etc. On the other hand, the combination of the iPod/iTunes system works remarkably well. And, my mother can use it without harassing me. From what I've seen personally, iTunes is at least as good or better than other iTunes-like stores. As for lawsuits, this is to be expected. Biggest player in the field = biggest target. >I was mainly talking about the hardware<---->OS locks. According to the license agreement for OSX, you must install OSX on >Apple Hardware. If your apple hardware breaks, you have to buy more, expensive, apple hardware to replace it. You are forced >to buy their hardware to upgrade. So what? OS X development is supported by the hardware sales. Apple is not selling just a computer, they are selling a complete solution. >I don't know about video cards, etc, but the pure number of hardware options available for Windows/Linux users simply kills any >mac offering. This is probably true for anything short of a Mac Tower, which has expansion slots in it. Still need drivers of course. >Isn't simply having much more choice about what hardware to use better than being given a smaller group to choose from? I've seen my share of crappy white-box hardware and/or Windows PCs over the years. I bought a turn-key solution and so far does everything I require of it. Nobody ever talks about all the good software you get with an Apple machine. I have yet to see anything that comes standard with a PC that approaches the quality of the iLife suite of software. Most of that software you get is trialware garbage, whereas the Apple stuff is fully functional. Not only that, I got Xcode with OS X, a full development suite. How much extra do I have to pay for Visual Studio on a Windows machine? From evan at snarc.net Mon Jan 25 10:27:35 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 11:27:35 -0500 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5DC495.80309@snarc.net> References: <4B5C8E55.3050105@cimmeri.com> <4B5D155E.1050005@verizon.net> <4B5DC495.80309@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4B5DC677.4060206@snarc.net> > Yeah really. I'm not sure who wrote the message before Will's reply, > but to that person: ever hear of the iPod/iPhone? Or of Crackberry > addiction? The young (and old too) are perhaps MORE emotionally > attached to their computers than the rest of us ever were to our > minicomputers, Altairs, and Apple IIs. But, the definition of > "computer" changed. PS - That's also why one of our exhibits (during our next expansion phase) will focus on "modern history" - stuff that's not vintage but still interesting and someday historic. From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 10:32:41 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 10:32:41 -0600 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5DC4E1.2040109@verizon.net> References: <201001251602.o0PG2vX9018022@floodgap.com> <4B5DC4E1.2040109@verizon.net> Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001250832q3e5972efi5650d1427d3bcba8@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Keith wrote: > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> Isn't simply having much more choice about what hardware to use better >>> than being given a smaller group to choose from? >>> >> >> Also, emacs sucks. >> > > Hahaha. I really should know better. > > From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emacs > > Eight Megabytes And Constantly Swapping > Emacs Makes A Computer Slow > Eventually Mallocs All Computer Storage > Eventually Makes All Computers Sick > > alt.religion.emacs. haha. > > or vi-vi-vi, 666. > > What's wrong with these people? :) > Emacs: the greatest operating system ever created. :-) brian From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Jan 25 10:38:03 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 11:38:03 -0500 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381001250832q3e5972efi5650d1427d3bcba8@mail.gmail.com> References: <201001251602.o0PG2vX9018022@floodgap.com> <4B5DC4E1.2040109@verizon.net> <6dbe3c381001250832q3e5972efi5650d1427d3bcba8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B5DC8EB.20903@verizon.net> Brian Lanning wrote: > > Emacs: the greatest operating system ever created. > > :-) > :) indeed. I was always a vi man myself. (come on, some one take the bait!) Keith From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Jan 25 10:39:09 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 17:39:09 +0100 (CET) Subject: Catweasel support for Intel M2FM working! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Oct 2009, Steven Hirsch wrote: > I'm pleased to announce that the maintainer of Linux cwtool has implemented > working support for reading and writing Intel M2FM "DD" diskettes as used > with the Intellec development systems :-). I've just looked at the current cwtool's code, and it seems that the M2FM support is still missing. Christian From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 10:39:57 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 11:39:57 -0500 Subject: Znner diode data In-Reply-To: <4B5CE2AA.5010006@telus.net> References: <4B5CE2AA.5010006@telus.net> Message-ID: > The old TI Diode/Transistor data book is one book that you are looking > for...unfortunately it was published in something like 1975 and you will > have to track one down. These databooks are quite common. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 10:42:04 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 11:42:04 -0500 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5DC8EB.20903@verizon.net> References: <201001251602.o0PG2vX9018022@floodgap.com> <4B5DC4E1.2040109@verizon.net> <6dbe3c381001250832q3e5972efi5650d1427d3bcba8@mail.gmail.com> <4B5DC8EB.20903@verizon.net> Message-ID: > (come on, some one take the bait!) No thanks. Some of us had enough religion, with last week's Microsoft/Unix fapfest. -- Will From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 10:51:55 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 11:51:55 -0500 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: References: <201001251602.o0PG2vX9018022@floodgap.com> <4B5DC4E1.2040109@verizon.net> <6dbe3c381001250832q3e5972efi5650d1427d3bcba8@mail.gmail.com> <4B5DC8EB.20903@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 11:42 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> (come on, some one take the bait!) > > No thanks. Some of us had enough religion, with last week's > Microsoft/Unix fapfest. No doubt. I use both on various operating systems - there's no need to choose one editor over the other. If I've got a C compiler and at least an 80x24 textual interface to a session, it's virtually certain that I have enough resources to find or build vi _and_ emacs for that target. Can't we all just get along? ;-) -ethan From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Jan 25 10:53:21 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 11:53:21 -0500 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <304375.66919.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <4B5C8E55.3050105@cimmeri.com> <4B5D155E.1050005@verizon.net> <83F4300A-3E2C-4CAA-A1E4-AE3F17FD53FF@neurotica.com> <4B5D3CCE.9030401@verizon.net> <304375.66919.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B5DCC81.5040805@verizon.net> geoffrey oltmans wrote: > I'm a self-avowed former Apple hater, so let me address some of the Apple hate below. ;) So I'm really not trying to "hate" on Apple here. It seems as long as you are willing to stay within the Apple paradigm, then everything is nice. Everything works. I don't doubt that. The problem comes in whenever you'd like to use your hardware/software in a different way. I'd like to just plug my ipod into my Windows PC, and copy my .mp3's to it. It seems absurd to me that you can't do this. Forget the huge bloated management application that is constantly advertising and trying to sell you something. I will say I've had no end to problems w/ the ipod nano I bought my wife a few years ago. And lost songs (aka money) due to DRM issues. Serves me right for actually paying for music, anyways. Or maybe you don't want the new software update for your ipod. Or maybe you don't want to use itunes to restore a broken ipod. There's really no choice. It vaguely reminds me of those Caribbean and Mexican beach resort vacations. As long as you stay on the property in the enclosed fence, everything is fine. Ignore the guys with machine guns outside. Just do as we tell you and no one will get hurt. :) Floomla is a decent free ipod app, btw. BTW: Microsoft offers a number of free versions of Visual Studio. Depending on the language, etc, Eclipse is a good free alternative too. Keith From ray at arachelian.com Mon Jan 25 11:02:45 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 12:02:45 -0500 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5DC8EB.20903@verizon.net> References: <201001251602.o0PG2vX9018022@floodgap.com> <4B5DC4E1.2040109@verizon.net> <6dbe3c381001250832q3e5972efi5650d1427d3bcba8@mail.gmail.com> <4B5DC8EB.20903@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B5DCEB5.20803@arachelian.com> Keith wrote: > > I was always a vi man myself. > (come on, some one take the bait!) > Fine. Emacs? Feh! Real men don't use editors, they burn circuits directly into sand using their cigars. Happy? :-D From js at cimmeri.com Mon Jan 25 11:05:00 2010 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 12:05:00 -0500 Subject: museums In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B5DCF3C.50507@cimmeri.com> > Keith M wrote > > My computer of choice is the Amiga. ... [entire essay] ... Once > something becomes obsolete, it's not often preserved because it seems > to have no value, and then you're posting on goofy forums and paying > $300 years later to get your hands on one. Extremely nice writeup, Keith. The more I think about the subject, the more complicated it is. There's just a lot of factors that go into something having meaning for us, and those factors are going to be different for every person, as well as changing as the person matures or learns more. For instance, I started out collecting machines I had as a young guy -- Apple II, S-100, Mac. But because of the internet, delving into those led by chance into learning about others... never imagined I'd end up with a PDP-11 in my house. You are so right about soul. I will never collect one of my Dell laptops, even though I love them as an appliance.. and I really can't tell you why. Maybe if my first machine ever had been a Dell laptop? For me, at some point machines evolve from being magical to commonplace. Computers when they first appeared in my life really did seem magical... Remember the feeling of your first car vs. buying cars now? Perhaps it is precisely that initial awe of something new is what inures us to certain machines and not to others... Machines that don't wow us now because our initial exposure has passed, might wow others. Or maybe, kids growing up with them will see them as like a toaster -- so ordinary as to be nothing more than a tool... who knows. More, it's being able to comprehend the machine. The machines I collect are ones I can service and fairly comprehend the entire picture of (even if not all the options and variations). Machines today.. whether they be cars or computers... are beyond my currently ability to service or fully understand the innards of... therefore, I'm forced to just accept them as tools that work. John Singleton From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Jan 25 12:09:09 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 19:09:09 +0100 Subject: Recurring subject: Goo removal In-Reply-To: <4B5C45D9.1656.F97BEB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B5C45D9.1656.F97BEB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100125190909.99530c6d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 13:06:33 -0800 "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > I was going through some of my old equipment and decided to see if my > old DDS autochanger still worked. \begin{troll} DDS and working is paradox. There is no working DDS. (Working in the sense of "You can read back what you have written onto it.") Don't waste your time with a DDS drive. Trash ist and you are done. \end{troll} Goo removal: Try with acetone or benzine. (petroleum aether? Don't know the english word.) Be carefull with acetone. It will dissolve many plastics. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 25 12:20:48 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 13:20:48 -0500 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: References: <201001251602.o0PG2vX9018022@floodgap.com> <4B5DC4E1.2040109@verizon.net> <6dbe3c381001250832q3e5972efi5650d1427d3bcba8@mail.gmail.com> <4B5DC8EB.20903@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Jan 25, 2010, at 11:42 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> (come on, some one take the bait!) > > No thanks. Some of us had enough religion, with last week's > Microsoft/Unix fapfest. "Religion", of course, being the term Windows fanboys use to dismiss anything they don't like, even when it's presented with proof. That's immature, disrespectful, unprofessional, and it makes one out to be a bit of a dick. Here's your proof, once again: ns$ uptime 1:17pm up 1062 day(s), 14:23, 1 user, load average: 2.05, 1.65, 1.85 ns$ -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 25 12:26:54 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 13:26:54 -0500 Subject: OT hardware flexibility and reliability, was Re: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5D3CCE.9030401@verizon.net> References: <4B5C8E55.3050105@cimmeri.com> <4B5D155E.1050005@verizon.net> <83F4300A-3E2C-4CAA-A1E4-AE3F17FD53FF@neurotica.com> <4B5D3CCE.9030401@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1862A959-91F6-4F00-B814-2B78C2CFD5A0@neurotica.com> On Jan 25, 2010, at 1:40 AM, Keith M wrote: >>> But there's just something about Apple that I just can't stand. >>> I'm not sure if it's the elitist attitude, or the prices, or the >>> forced-lock-ins. >> What lock-ins would those be, specifically? My main desktop >> machine is (right now) a Mac, because it is (right now) the best >> way to get a very fast UNIX machine on a desktop. I suffer no >> lock-ins of any kind. > > Hi Dave, > > SO you admit the elitist attitude and price part? :) Elitist attitude: I prefer to refer to it as "having standards". It's the same thing that causes me to avoid eating at McDonald's and shopping at Wal*Mart. But I have something to back it up. I've owned my primary desktop machine for four years; I bought it used for $1K. In that time, it has never crashed, never gotten a virus, and never had a hardware failure. I am what most people would call an "uber power user"...At any one time I've got probably fifty shell windows open, and maybe twenty browser windows with upwards of a hundred tabs each, and probably half a dozen PDF files, running across eight virtual screens. Add to that a mail program, and probably half a dozen other things. Oh, and at least two simh simulators, and three instances of Hercules. I work at home. I use this machine all day, every day, not just "a few hours after dinner to surf porn and eBay" like most people...but I use it ALL DAY, part of the time for work stuff, part for personal, but on any average day I'm pounding the crap out of this machine for probably fifteen hours. It has never crashed. Never had a virus. Never had a hardware failure. Never rebooted unless it was intentional. I've never replaced anything due to breakage or wearing out except a keyboard, and only because I wanted one. And oh by the way, that wasn't an Apple keyboard. (though my new one is) As for pricing, you get what you pay for...but do you really think $1000 for a machine of this level of reliability and longevity, over that many years, is bad economics? > For as long as I've been on the internet, you think I would have > learned by now to avoid posting flame-bait like that. Probably. ;) But I'd not dismiss it as such. I'll simply explain my point and move on. You're laboring under some false assumptions, which I will clarify. > There are tons of ipod/itunes and iphone issues abound (see ongoing > Sherman Antitrust Act lawsuits, like slattery vs apple. This suit > has been renamed, and I'm too lazy to find it). If you've ever own > an ipod, you know exactly what the problem is. You must use itunes > to manage your ipod, and it only manages your ipod. Want to just > load mp3s onto your ipod without itunes? You can't do it (w/o > running 3rd party unsupported software that risks damaging the > stability of your ipod). Every other mp3 player sold(OK, I'm > probably pushing my luck here) supports simply copying the .mp3s > directly onto the player. Proprietary .AAC extensions, DRM issues, > problems w/ corrupted ipods and getting music that you paid for off > it. Moving/switching/upgrading ipods. Apple charging for removing > drm, etc. I don't own an iPod or an iPhone. It's trivial to put mp3 files on an iPod, though; I've done that lots of times. The suitly DRM garbage is easy to avoid. I've never been bitten by it, and never will be. You don't have to be either. > I was mainly talking about the hardware<---->OS locks. According > to the license agreement for OSX, you must install OSX on Apple > Hardware. No problem there...not that I pay much attention to licenses. > If your apple hardware breaks, you have to buy more, expensive, > apple hardware to replace it. You are forced to buy their hardware > to upgrade. Well, it rarely breaks in the first place, but since you mentioned it...Stuff is cheap and available. Neither my video card, my DIMMs, my GigE interface, my FibreChannel controller, nor my hard drives say Apple anywhere on them. > Completely different situation with Windows, Linux, and so on. You > can use any available (compatible) hardware, and if my dell breaks, ...which it will... (sorry) > I buy a new Dell, Gateway, Sony, etc etc etc. ...and if my G5 breaks, which it hasn't (and remember, it was a few years old when I bought it!) I can just pick up some parts via eBay. Problem solved. > I don't know about video cards, etc, but the pure number of > hardware options available for Windows/Linux users simply kills any > mac offering. Really? How many different video cards do you have in your computer right now? Mine works great, I have no complaints and I'm missing no functionality. There's probably a newer one out there, but do I care? Not particularly. I will admit, though, that I do enjoy the hardware flexibility that exists in the Linux world. I set up lots of Linux machines for people who finally figure out the Windows scam and jump ship. I don't push them toward Macs because everyone around here (southwest Florida) is broke, and I can give them Linux machines for free. I drive around on trash day and pick up PCs that are too slow to run Windows (typically 1GHz-2GHz machines) or have bad power supplies (lots of lightning down here), etc, and load them up with Linux for people. I like the hardware flexibility there, because I can scrounge anything out of the junk box and it'll work. But for my machines? I depend on them for my livelihood. I want the best of everything, and I don't like to settle for less. > Isn't simply having much more choice about what hardware to use > better than being given a smaller group to choose from? > > http://www.pcworld.com/article/181200/ > bad_apple_five_classic_apple_marketing_tactics_that_lock_you_in.html > > Has this stuff changed recently? I have no idea (haven't read the article), I generally don't listen to what the media wants to tell me, I just use my computers. I have no doubt that Apple employs a bunch of sleazy suits who will do whatever they can to make money, no matter how dishonest, and those suits need to be beaten to within an inch of their lives. But that doesn't change the fact that: This computer has been in daily, VERY hard use at about 15hrs/day seven days per week and has never crashed, never had a virus, never had a hardware failure...never so much as burped. Ever. This isn't "religion", nor is it a "flame"...It's a fact. I looked at the stuff that was available, and made my decision. And I'm not "an Apple guy": I use a Mac because, right now, it's the best way to get a very fast, very reliable graphical UNIX machine on the desktop. The moment that changes, I will move to a different platform. If the PC world or Microsoft had anything better to offer, I'd use it. The moment Microsoft comes out with a good, fast, solid, standards-based desktop UNIX implementation, I'll use it! -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Jan 25 12:27:07 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 10:27:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: References: <201001251602.o0PG2vX9018022@floodgap.com> <4B5DC4E1.2040109@verizon.net> <6dbe3c381001250832q3e5972efi5650d1427d3bcba8@mail.gmail.com> <4B5DC8EB.20903@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jan 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > "Religion", of course, being the term Windows fanboys use to dismiss > anything they don't like, even when it's presented with proof. That's > immature, disrespectful, unprofessional, and it makes one out to be a bit of > a dick. > > Here's your proof, once again: > > ns$ uptime > 1:17pm up 1062 day(s), 14:23, 1 user, load average: 2.05, 1.65, 1.85 > ns$ > Translation: *fap* *fap* *fap* *fap* *fap* *fap* *fap* *fap* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 25 12:53:31 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 13:53:31 -0500 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: References: <201001251602.o0PG2vX9018022@floodgap.com> <4B5DC4E1.2040109@verizon.net> <6dbe3c381001250832q3e5972efi5650d1427d3bcba8@mail.gmail.com> <4B5DC8EB.20903@verizon.net> Message-ID: <3CBA561C-AADC-49AC-A05F-4F7E5FD294AE@neurotica.com> On Jan 25, 2010, at 1:27 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> "Religion", of course, being the term Windows fanboys use to >> dismiss anything they don't like, even when it's presented with >> proof. That's immature, disrespectful, unprofessional, and it >> makes one out to be a bit of a dick. >> >> Here's your proof, once again: >> >> ns$ uptime >> 1:17pm up 1062 day(s), 14:23, 1 user, load average: 2.05, 1.65, >> 1.85 >> ns$ >> > Translation: > > *fap* *fap* *fap* *fap* *fap* *fap* *fap* *fap* AbsoLUTELY. :-) Definitely fap-worthy, if I do say so myself! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Jan 25 13:18:15 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 11:18:15 -0800 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: References: <201001251602.o0PG2vX9018022@floodgap.com> <4B5DC4E1.2040109@verizon.net> <6dbe3c381001250832q3e5972efi5650d1427d3bcba8@mail.gmail.com> <4B5DC8EB.20903@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B5DEE77.6050808@mail.msu.edu> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 25, 2010, at 11:42 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> (come on, some one take the bait!) >> >> No thanks. Some of us had enough religion, with last week's >> Microsoft/Unix fapfest. > > "Religion", of course, being the term Windows fanboys use to dismiss > anything they don't like, even when it's presented with proof. That's > immature, disrespectful, unprofessional, and it makes one out to be a > bit of a dick. Ah, generalization. Yes, only Windows "fanboys" use this term. Ever. Because as you so often like to state, Windows users are all morons. Yes, *I'm* the dick here. > > Here's your proof, once again: > > ns$ uptime > 1:17pm up 1062 day(s), 14:23, 1 user, load average: 2.05, 1.65, 1.85 > ns$ Ah, proof, being in this case, "anecdotal evidence." - Josh > > -Dave >> > > From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Mon Jan 25 13:27:00 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 11:27:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5DCC81.5040805@verizon.net> References: <4B5C8E55.3050105@cimmeri.com> <4B5D155E.1050005@verizon.net> <83F4300A-3E2C-4CAA-A1E4-AE3F17FD53FF@neurotica.com> <4B5D3CCE.9030401@verizon.net> <304375.66919.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B5DCC81.5040805@verizon.net> Message-ID: <99648.3433.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I know you're not really hating on Apple, I was being a little tongue-in-cheek. I haven't seen any sort of problems that you reported with iTunes, so I can't comment on those. Maybe things are better now. My wife has a 2nd gen iPod Touch 32MB and I have a 1 GB iPod Shuffle for when I go to the gym (actually, this is my second, the first one was destroyed when I accidentally washed it in my gym pants, something I'd have a hard time ascribing to Apple). I haven't really noticed iTunes trying to sell you stuff in-your-face, excepting when you open it up since it comes up by default in the iTunes Store rather than your library. Click a tab in your library and that's gone pretty quick. The iTunes store has had a lot of DRM-free stuff for a while now, and I can't really say that DRM is an Apple-only concern where it does exist. As for my stuff, all my photos are still plain old jpegs or RAW images, all my music is in drm-less codecs that are freely available on other platforms, my mail can be converted to another database if I so desire... I can still run Firefox if I want to, I can still use Microsoft Office or OpenOffice, I use Quicken, which is also available on Windows. I recently upgraded the hard disk in my MacBook with an off-the-shelf 2.5" SATA drive with no issues (and in fact my Time Machine backup made this the least painful hard drive upgrade ever). I can reasonably run a lot of open software on OS X. Point being, I can easily move out of the OS X realm into Linux or Windows if I wanted to, taking all my toys along with me, but why do it? I'm having fun playing in this sandbox right now. Other people might feel differently, but I don't feel like I'm hindered in any realistic way from doing whatever it is I want, and in fact, Apple's software has made my life with computers less annoying. That said, I do have a couple of quibbles: Cosmetically, I loved my white macbook when I first got it. The slick polycarbonate shell has scratched rather easily though. The keyboard has cracked in a couple places at the edges of the case. Both are cosmetic issues rather than functional issues. Part of me thinks this never should have happened, but on the flipside I'm not one to baby my laptop either. It is well-used believe me, and aside from these two points I'd say overall I'm happy with my purchase. I think they've at least addressed the cracking issue on the latest white cased MacBook. As for the development software, I believe the free versions of Visual Studio are crippled in some ways are they not? And it's nice to have a company-sanctioned IDE to use, regardless of how nice a third parties' IDE might be. ________________________________ From: Keith To: General at olddell.com; On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Mon, January 25, 2010 10:53:21 AM Subject: Re: Museums geoffrey oltmans wrote: > I'm a self-avowed former Apple hater, so let me address some of the Apple hate below. ;) So I'm really not trying to "hate" on Apple here. It seems as long as you are willing to stay within the Apple paradigm, then everything is nice. Everything works. I don't doubt that. The problem comes in whenever you'd like to use your hardware/software in a different way. I'd like to just plug my ipod into my Windows PC, and copy my .mp3's to it. It seems absurd to me that you can't do this. Forget the huge bloated management application that is constantly advertising and trying to sell you something. I will say I've had no end to problems w/ the ipod nano I bought my wife a few years ago. And lost songs (aka money) due to DRM issues. Serves me right for actually paying for music, anyways. Or maybe you don't want the new software update for your ipod. Or maybe you don't want to use itunes to restore a broken ipod. There's really no choice. It vaguely reminds me of those Caribbean and Mexican beach resort vacations. As long as you stay on the property in the enclosed fence, everything is fine. Ignore the guys with machine guns outside. Just do as we tell you and no one will get hurt. :) Floomla is a decent free ipod app, btw. BTW: Microsoft offers a number of free versions of Visual Studio. Depending on the language, etc, Eclipse is a good free alternative too. Keith From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Jan 25 13:30:31 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 11:30:31 -0800 Subject: Large pdp-8/i on eBay In-Reply-To: <4B5CCD16.4050007@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <84C392B587EF45C8B03037CE0D634C57@vrsxp> <506874a586e686f6d1c86a81f2516d56.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4B521749.5010101@hachti.de> <6d6501091001241405n50e6948av845d8d759671578b@mail.gmail.com> <4B5CCD16.4050007@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > From: Ben > Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 2:44 PM > Chris Halarewich wrote: >> It edded up going for $15,000 US! > Any idea what the list price would have been? The CPU listed for $16,000 new. 1968 dollars. Or did you mean the seller's reserve? $15,000. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jan 25 13:29:36 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 13:29:36 -0600 Subject: General machine cleaning In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381001250803p4f77e942q39cb73c8bded26e2@mail.gmail.co m> References: <6dbe3c381001250803p4f77e942q39cb73c8bded26e2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <201001251934.o0PJY0ck082520@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 10:03 AM 1/25/2010, you wrote: >Not sure how it is about taking goo off, but for cleaning up old machines in >general, I like those Magic Erasers from Mr Clean. I haven't looked into >the ingredients, but whatever's in it, they hit the nail of the head. If >you have some machines that have marker writing in stead of an asset tag, >this might take it off. For me, it's worked in some cases and not others. >It will take those general hard to remove scuffs off also. I start cleaning >new machines by first scrubbing them with baby wipes, then a magic eraser. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melamine_foam "In the early 21st century it was discovered that melamine foam was an effective abrasive cleaner. The open cell foam is microporous and its polymeric substance is extremely hard, so that when used for cleaning it works like extremely fine sandpaper, getting into tiny grooves and pits in the object being cleaned." - John From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 25 13:42:16 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 14:42:16 -0500 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5DEE77.6050808@mail.msu.edu> References: <201001251602.o0PG2vX9018022@floodgap.com> <4B5DC4E1.2040109@verizon.net> <6dbe3c381001250832q3e5972efi5650d1427d3bcba8@mail.gmail.com> <4B5DC8EB.20903@verizon.net> <4B5DEE77.6050808@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 25, 2010, at 2:18 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>>> (come on, some one take the bait!) >>> >>> No thanks. Some of us had enough religion, with last week's >>> Microsoft/Unix fapfest. >> >> "Religion", of course, being the term Windows fanboys use to >> dismiss anything they don't like, even when it's presented with >> proof. That's immature, disrespectful, unprofessional, and it >> makes one out to be a bit of a dick. > > Ah, generalization. Yes, only Windows "fanboys" use this term. > Ever. Because as you so often like to state, Windows users are all > morons. Yes, *I'm* the dick here. I didn't say "only", and I certainly never called YOU a dick. Nor would I. >> Here's your proof, once again: >> >> ns$ uptime >> 1:17pm up 1062 day(s), 14:23, 1 user, load average: 2.05, >> 1.65, 1.85 >> ns$ > > Ah, proof, being in this case, "anecdotal evidence." You want an account on the machine to see for yourself? ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ray at arachelian.com Mon Jan 25 13:40:42 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 14:40:42 -0500 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: References: <201001251602.o0PG2vX9018022@floodgap.com> <4B5DC4E1.2040109@verizon.net> <6dbe3c381001250832q3e5972efi5650d1427d3bcba8@mail.gmail.com> <4B5DC8EB.20903@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B5DF3BA.0@arachelian.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > Here's your proof, once again: > > ns$ uptime > 1:17pm up 1062 day(s), 14:23, 1 user, load average: 2.05, 1.65, 1.85 > ns$ For home use, especially if well firewalled off, that's just pure awesomeness. For production use, not so much, means that you don't know whether this box will boot up or not if it goes down hard. It is possible for blocks to have gone back, blocks on which the kernel or other startup related files may be mapped - unless you were the guy that set it up and tested it, you don't know whether it will boot up and bring up services, whether you need to add routes to make it work, etc. - i.e. the original builder left the job for more cash, etc.. It also means that it hasn't been patched in that many days and is likely vulnerable to lots of attacks. Despite that, it's quite impressive. :-) Well played sir. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 25 13:49:58 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 14:49:58 -0500 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5DF3BA.0@arachelian.com> References: <201001251602.o0PG2vX9018022@floodgap.com> <4B5DC4E1.2040109@verizon.net> <6dbe3c381001250832q3e5972efi5650d1427d3bcba8@mail.gmail.com> <4B5DC8EB.20903@verizon.net> <4B5DF3BA.0@arachelian.com> Message-ID: On Jan 25, 2010, at 2:40 PM, Ray Arachelian wrote: >> Here's your proof, once again: >> >> ns$ uptime >> 1:17pm up 1062 day(s), 14:23, 1 user, load average: 2.05, 1.65, 1.85 >> ns$ > > For home use, especially if well firewalled off, that's just pure > awesomeness. > > For production use, not so much, means that you don't know whether > this > box will boot up or not if it goes down hard. It is possible for > blocks > to have gone back, blocks on which the kernel or other startup related > files may be mapped - unless you were the guy that set it up and > tested > it, you don't know whether it will boot up and bring up services, > whether you need to add routes to make it work, etc. - i.e. the > original > builder left the job for more cash, etc.. Good point, but this isn't my first BBQ my friend...There's a cold spare in the rack. > It also means that it hasn't been patched in that many days and is > likely vulnerable to lots of attacks. Despite that, it's quite > impressive. :-) Well played sir. It's been patched, just nothing that requires a reboot. And as you know, most UNIX-based OSs rarely require reboots for patching. For example, I've replaced the Ethernet interface drivers on this machine, hot, without rebooting. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ats at offog.org Mon Jan 25 13:52:45 2010 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 19:52:45 +0000 Subject: Recurring subject: Goo removal In-Reply-To: <20100125190909.99530c6d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> (Jochen Kunz's message of "Mon, 25 Jan 2010 19:09:09 +0100") References: <4B5C45D9.1656.F97BEB@cclist.sydex.com> <20100125190909.99530c6d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: Jochen Kunz writes: > Don't waste your time with a DDS drive. Trash ist and you are done. Unless it's one of the (fairly rare) drives that's capable of reading audio DATs, in which case it's a very useful tool for people with a stack of DATs to digitise. Mine's a Sony SDT-9000, scavenged from a local school's backup server when they junked it a few years ago. There's a decent overview here: http://www.trygve.com/playaudiodat.html -- Adam Sampson From doc at vaxen.net Mon Jan 25 14:02:39 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 14:02:39 -0600 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5D1D50.8020902@oldskool.org> References: <4B5C8E55.3050105@cimmeri.com> <4B5D155E.1050005@verizon.net> <4B5D1D50.8020902@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4B5DF8DF.50009@vaxen.net> Jim Leonard wrote: > You can find personality in almost any computer subculture if you look > hard enough. I've been involved with the "demoscene" since 1990 and no > matter what platform a demo is written on, there's a lot of personality. > > I'd argue that IBM machinery definitely had a personality -- reliable, > solid, strong, definitive. Artistic or creative? No. But intriguing > all the same. Um. Can you say "OS/2"? Doc From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Jan 25 14:04:45 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 12:04:45 -0800 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: References: <201001251602.o0PG2vX9018022@floodgap.com> <4B5DC4E1.2040109@verizon.net> <6dbe3c381001250832q3e5972efi5650d1427d3bcba8@mail.gmail.com> <4B5DC8EB.20903@verizon.net> <4B5DF3BA.0@arachelian.com> Message-ID: On Jan 25, 2010, at 11:49 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 25, 2010, at 2:40 PM, Ray Arachelian wrote: >>> Here's your proof, once again: >>> >>> ns$ uptime >>> 1:17pm up 1062 day(s), 14:23, 1 user, load average: 2.05, 1.65, 1.85 >>> ns$ >> >> For home use, especially if well firewalled off, that's just pure >> awesomeness. >> >> For production use, not so much, means that you don't know whether >> this >> box will boot up or not if it goes down hard. It is possible for >> blocks >> to have gone back, blocks on which the kernel or other startup >> related >> files may be mapped - unless you were the guy that set it up and >> tested >> it, you don't know whether it will boot up and bring up services, >> whether you need to add routes to make it work, etc. - i.e. the >> original >> builder left the job for more cash, etc.. > > Good point, but this isn't my first BBQ my friend...There's a cold > spare in the rack. > >> It also means that it hasn't been patched in that many days and is >> likely vulnerable to lots of attacks. Despite that, it's quite >> impressive. :-) Well played sir. > > It's been patched, just nothing that requires a reboot. And as you > know, most UNIX-based OSs rarely require reboots for patching. For > example, I've replaced the Ethernet interface drivers on this > machine, hot, without rebooting. I can (and do) replace video drivers on my Windows 7 boxes without rebooting :) same for network and just about anything else. Now if I could just beat some sense into the windows update guys so they stop marking fixes to IE as "reboot required" when they're clearly not... Josh > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > From doc at vaxen.net Mon Jan 25 14:05:43 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 14:05:43 -0600 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <201001251602.o0PG2vX9018022@floodgap.com> References: <201001251602.o0PG2vX9018022@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4B5DF997.9010508@vaxen.net> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Isn't simply having much more choice about what hardware to use better >> than being given a smaller group to choose from? > > Also, emacs sucks. emacs would be an awesome operating system, if it had a decent text editor.... Doc From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 25 14:11:20 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 15:11:20 -0500 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: References: <201001251602.o0PG2vX9018022@floodgap.com> <4B5DC4E1.2040109@verizon.net> <6dbe3c381001250832q3e5972efi5650d1427d3bcba8@mail.gmail.com> <4B5DC8EB.20903@verizon.net> <4B5DF3BA.0@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <413114BE-C6A2-4295-B515-FB909A03941F@neurotica.com> On Jan 25, 2010, at 3:04 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> It's been patched, just nothing that requires a reboot. And as >> you know, most UNIX-based OSs rarely require reboots for >> patching. For example, I've replaced the Ethernet interface >> drivers on this machine, hot, without rebooting. > > I can (and do) replace video drivers on my Windows 7 boxes without > rebooting :) same for network and just about anything else. Ok, that's cool. But.. > Now if I could just beat some sense into the windows update guys so > they stop marking fixes to IE as "reboot required" when they're > clearly not... ...this is what I was going to ask about. Why do they do that? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Mon Jan 25 14:10:16 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 12:10:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5DF997.9010508@vaxen.net> References: <201001251602.o0PG2vX9018022@floodgap.com> <4B5DF997.9010508@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <880184.7461.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> lol! ________________________________ From: Doc Shipley To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Mon, January 25, 2010 2:05:43 PM Subject: Re: Museums Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Isn't simply having much more choice about what hardware to use better than being given a smaller group to choose from? > > Also, emacs sucks. emacs would be an awesome operating system, if it had a decent text editor.... Doc From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 14:13:24 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 15:13:24 -0500 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) Message-ID: On 1/25/10, Doc Shipley wrote: > emacs would be an awesome operating system, if it had a decent text editor.... It does... M-x viper-mode *ducks and runs* -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 25 13:26:38 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 19:26:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [personal] Shaft encoder in HP2631B printer In-Reply-To: <005001ca9d9f$6fa585c0$961ca8c0@mss.local> from "Mike Hatch" at Jan 25, 10 09:19:01 am Message-ID: > Sounds like it may be a HEDS or HEDL encoder as it's HP, any chance of a > photo or a p#. It has a number QEDS8997 on the end cover (the part that carries the LEDs). There may be a number on the other end of the housing, but I can't remove it to check, the screws holding it to the bearing plate are covered by the encoder disk that's emoxied to the eladscrew and which needs the special tools (according to HP) to remove/replace. I cna't easily provide a photo (no digital camera). If you've ever worked on HP9000/200 machines, it's similar to the encoder used on the twiddleknob on the keyboards of said machiens, but without he spindle/mounting bush. > > Anyway. Iv'e read the HP service manual (on http://www.hpmuseum.net) and > > Link to the manual ? The easiest way to get to it is to go to said site, then naviage through 'printers' 'impact' 'hp2531' 'product documentation'. You'll then see a serevice manaul (and a CE manual) for the 2630B series listed. I think the encoder i nthe 2531A is similar, the one in the 2631G is very different (and, alas, looks a lot more repairable from the manual). > We use HEDS an HEDL's all the time, no special tools. According to the manual, this encoder was supplied as 3 separate parts. The housing, constianing the sensorts and with the cable fixed to it ; the encoder disk; and the end conver containing the LEDs. THey are fitted in that order, and removed in the reverse order. The hub of the encoder disk doesn't have a setscrew or similar. It is glued to the hend of the leadscrew with epoxy. One tool is used to remove the disk (it hocks round the hub, and a screw then applies pressure to the ned of the shaft to pull the disk off, breaking the epoxy bond. The other tool is used to bet the disk back on the spindile, it, again, fits round the hub and rests against the end of the housing, this getting the disk the right distance inside. What is not clear ffom the manual is wheter this procedure damages the disk, or whether you can refit the old one if you want to. My guessis that he other reply is correct, and that the LEDs are out. If that's the case, I may not need to remocve the encoder assembly. The end cover carrying the LEDs comes off anyway. The whould thing can be removed from the printer complete with leadscrew, bearing, and bearing cover plate. And after doing that it's possible to unclip the cover over the cable and get to the edge of the snensoor PCB. Maybe that will be enough. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 25 13:01:37 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 19:01:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Shaft encoder in HP2631B printer In-Reply-To: from "Dave Caroline" at Jan 24, 10 09:19:03 pm Message-ID: > > sounds like the lamp/led is off Thanks!. I asusme the otuputs are high if the corresponding sensors are dark, then. This encoder is supplied in 3 piexes according to the manual. There's a housing that scred to the ebaring cover plate in the printer. A slotted encoder disk that's then glued to the leadscrew. And an end cover that clips onto the end of the casing, this carries the light source (I assume IR LEDs). When I next work on the printer, I'll invesigate the powering and operation of those LEDs. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 25 13:29:15 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 19:29:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Recurring subject: Goo removal In-Reply-To: <20100125121136.GM24075@lug-owl.de> from "Jan-Benedict Glaw" at Jan 25, 10 01:11:36 pm Message-ID: > > On Sun, 2010-01-24 13:06:33 -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Upon opening up the unit, I discovered that the rubber rollers that > > manipulate the magazine as well those that actually feed the cassette > > had turned to black goo and spread it all over the place. > > I'm facing a similar problem. The rubber feets of some of my > DECstations and VAXstations got somewhat "fluid" and rinsed down as a > sticky, black drop. Very nasty stuff :( > > Any idea how to solve that sticky stuff away? The printer platten roller in my HP9820 turned to a sticky black goo and dripped (litereally_ onto the printer driver PCB. I cleaned it up using propan-2-ol (not very effective), lighter fluid (naphtha, rather more effetive) and a lot of elbow grease. It wasn't perfect at the end, but it was a lot betterm good enough to let me replace the roller and get the printer prining again. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 25 14:10:58 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 20:10:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP HPIB chips Message-ID: A week or so ago there were a few messages about the HP 'Medusa' HPIB chip. While looking for indormation on the custom chips in the HP printer I'm working on from time to time, I cam across some comments that might be applicable. The HPIB interface chip in the HP2531 printer is called 'Phi'. According to HP Jorunal July 1978, it is a silicon-on-saphire CMOS device. It's pacakaged in a 48 'pin' leadless ceramic package, and has the number 1AA6-6004 The Medusa, packaged in a 48 pin DIL package, seems to be a closely related device. The pinot is in the same order, for example. This probably explains the rather curious numbering of the data bus pins on the Medusa (D0, D1, and D8-D15, with D15 as the LSB). The best reference I've found so far on this is the reference manual for the HP12009A HPIB interface for HP1000 machines. It's on http://www.hpmusuem,net. THe earlier version of the manual there covers the Phi-based board, the later version the Medusa-based one. They are very similar.. -tony From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Jan 25 14:24:39 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 12:24:39 -0800 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <413114BE-C6A2-4295-B515-FB909A03941F@neurotica.com> References: <201001251602.o0PG2vX9018022@floodgap.com> <4B5DC4E1.2040109@verizon.net> <6dbe3c381001250832q3e5972efi5650d1427d3bcba8@mail.gmail.com> <4B5DC8EB.20903@verizon.net> <4B5DF3BA.0@arachelian.com> <413114BE-C6A2-4295-B515-FB909A03941F@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Jan 25, 2010, at 12:11 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 25, 2010, at 3:04 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> It's been patched, just nothing that requires a reboot. And as >>> you know, most UNIX-based OSs rarely require reboots for >>> patching. For example, I've replaced the Ethernet interface >>> drivers on this machine, hot, without rebooting. >> >> I can (and do) replace video drivers on my Windows 7 boxes without >> rebooting :) same for network and just about anything else. > > Ok, that's cool. But.. Very cool. And if the driver crashes it just gets restarted, so the system doesn't go down due to a horrible ATI driver... > >> Now if I could just beat some sense into the windows update guys so >> they stop marking fixes to IE as "reboot required" when they're >> clearly not... > > ...this is what I was going to ask about. Why do they do that? > Wish I knew. My guess is "paranoia.". For IE, for example they may not be able to reliably find and restart every running app that's using an IE component (HTML renderer, etc) or they just don't trust other apps, etc. They just want to make 100% sure that the patch gets applied, upime be damned. We have enough problems getting people to keep their machines up to date as it is. Most malware attacks vectors that have been fixed for months, if not years... Or they could just be chuckleheads. Josh > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Jan 25 15:26:24 2010 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 16:26:24 -0500 Subject: OT iPods etc (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Keith writes: > I'd like to just plug my ipod into my Windows PC, and copy my .mp3's to > it. It seems absurd to me that you can't do this. Forget the huge > bloated management application that is constantly advertising and trying > to sell you something. You can do that... you just don't use the Apple iTunes software to do it. I use GNUpod under linux, but I'm sure it'd work under Windows too. What's ironic is that I use a Microsoft VFAT file system under linux Gnupod to write To an apple device. When mish-mashes of hardware, filesystems, etc., occur Like that in fact it's hard to even think in terms of religious wars anymore. You just plug everything together and it's ugly but it works. It's not as ugly As the Apple iTunes software! There's a lot of generic music devices out there too that don't need the gnupod layer at all. Tim. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 25 15:37:13 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 22:37:13 +0100 Subject: Recurring subject: Goo removal In-Reply-To: References: <20100125121136.GM24075@lug-owl.de> from "Jan-Benedict Glaw" atJan 25, 10 01:11:36 pm Message-ID: <85FA8B4A3F39470C852850437D9FB21E@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: maandag 25 januari 2010 20:29 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: Recurring subject: Goo removal > > > > > On Sun, 2010-01-24 13:06:33 -0800, Chuck Guzis > wrote: > > > Upon opening up the unit, I discovered that the rubber > rollers that > > > manipulate the magazine as well those that actually feed the > > > cassette had turned to black goo and spread it all over the place. > > > > I'm facing a similar problem. The rubber feets of some of my > > DECstations and VAXstations got somewhat "fluid" and rinsed > down as a > > sticky, black drop. Very nasty stuff :( > > > > Any idea how to solve that sticky stuff away? > > The printer platten roller in my HP9820 turned to a sticky > black goo and dripped (litereally_ onto the printer driver > PCB. I cleaned it up using propan-2-ol (not very effective), > lighter fluid (naphtha, rather more > effetive) and a lot of elbow grease. It wasn't perfect at the > end, but it was a lot betterm good enough to let me replace > the roller and get the printer prining again. > > -tony I'm using silicone degreaser, it's a special degreaser you use before you're goint to spray paint to remove solicone's and other grease frations. It's very effective. -Rik From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 25 15:42:12 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 22:42:12 +0100 Subject: [personal] Shaft encoder in HP2631B printer In-Reply-To: References: <005001ca9d9f$6fa585c0$961ca8c0@mss.local> from "Mike Hatch" atJan 25, 10 09:19:01 am Message-ID: <6F0C47604C3D44AA85A1AC98052D484D@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: maandag 25 januari 2010 20:27 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: [personal] Shaft encoder in HP2631B printer > > > Sounds like it may be a HEDS or HEDL encoder as it's HP, > any chance of > > a photo or a p#. > > > > It has a number QEDS8997 on the end cover (the part that > carries the LEDs). There may be a number on the other end of > the housing, but I can't remove it to check, the screws > holding it to the bearing plate are covered by the encoder > disk that's emoxied to the eladscrew and which needs the > special tools (according to HP) to remove/replace. > > I cna't easily provide a photo (no digital camera). If you've > ever worked on HP9000/200 machines, it's similar to the > encoder used on the twiddleknob on the keyboards of said > machiens, but without he spindle/mounting bush. > > > > Anyway. Iv'e read the HP service manual (on > http://www.hpmuseum.net) > > > and > > > > Link to the manual ? > > The easiest way to get to it is to go to said site, then > naviage through 'printers' 'impact' 'hp2531' 'product > documentation'. You'll then see a serevice manaul (and a CE > manual) for the 2630B series listed. I think the encoder i > nthe 2531A is similar, the one in the 2631G is very different > (and, alas, looks a lot more repairable from the manual). > > > > We use HEDS an HEDL's all the time, no special tools. > > According to the manual, this encoder was supplied as 3 > separate parts. > The housing, constianing the sensorts and with the cable > fixed to it ; the encoder disk; and the end conver containing > the LEDs. > > THey are fitted in that order, and removed in the reverse order. > > The hub of the encoder disk doesn't have a setscrew or > similar. It is glued to the hend of the leadscrew with epoxy. > One tool is used to remove the disk (it hocks round the hub, > and a screw then applies pressure to the ned of the shaft to > pull the disk off, breaking the epoxy bond. The other tool is > used to bet the disk back on the spindile, it, again, fits > round the hub and rests against the end of the housing, this > getting the disk the right distance inside. > > What is not clear ffom the manual is wheter this procedure > damages the disk, or whether you can refit the old one if you want to. > > My guessis that he other reply is correct, and that the LEDs > are out. If that's the case, I may not need to remocve the > encoder assembly. The end cover carrying the LEDs comes off > anyway. The whould thing can be removed from the printer > complete with leadscrew, bearing, and bearing cover plate. > And after doing that it's possible to unclip the cover over > the cable and get to the edge of the snensoor PCB. Maybe that > will be enough. > > -tony The HP 9000/200 series knob encoder uses a small bulb, witch I replaced for a white LED (3mm type). I had to remodel the LED a bit to make it fit. -Rik From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 25 15:41:45 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 13:41:45 -0800 Subject: Recurring subject: Goo removal In-Reply-To: References: <4B5C45D9.1656.F97BEB@cclist.sydex.com>, <20100125190909.99530c6d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> (Jochen Kunz's message of "Mon, 25 Jan 2010 19:09:09 +0100"), Message-ID: <4B5D9F99.1949.115BB8C@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Jan 2010 at 19:52, Adam Sampson wrote: > Jochen Kunz writes: > > > Don't waste your time with a DDS drive. Trash ist and you are done. > > Unless it's one of the (fairly rare) drives that's capable of reading > audio DATs, in which case it's a very useful tool for people with a > stack of DATs to digitise. Mine's a Sony SDT-9000, scavenged from a > local school's backup server when they junked it a few years ago. Well, I could say the same thing about DECTapes, audio cassettes, QIC, Travan, 8mm, Pereos or even half-inch 7 or 9 track reel-to- reel, or just about any tape for that matter. But I keep it around because I do have lots of things on DDS and I'm not about to dedicate the time to put them some other equally capricious medium. It's one of about 5 DDS 4mm drives that I own, so I'm not out of luck by any means. And yes, this is one of the rare ones (an Archive) that does read audio DAT. Fortunately, it can be manually fed, rather than relying on the magazine feed. --Chuck From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 25 15:48:22 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 22:48:22 +0100 Subject: HP HPIB chips In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: maandag 25 januari 2010 21:11 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: HP HPIB chips > > A week or so ago there were a few messages about the HP > 'Medusa' HPIB chip. > > While looking for indormation on the custom chips in the HP > printer I'm working on from time to time, I cam across some > comments that might be applicable. > > The HPIB interface chip in the HP2531 printer is called > 'Phi'. According to HP Jorunal July 1978, it is a > silicon-on-saphire CMOS device. It's pacakaged in a 48 'pin' > leadless ceramic package, and has the number > 1AA6-6004 > > The Medusa, packaged in a 48 pin DIL package, seems to be a > closely related device. The pinot is in the same order, for > example. This probably explains the rather curious numbering > of the data bus pins on the Medusa (D0, D1, and D8-D15, with > D15 as the LSB). > > The best reference I've found so far on this is the reference > manual for the HP12009A HPIB interface for HP1000 machines. > It's on http://www.hpmusuem,net. THe earlier version of the > manual there covers the Phi-based board, the later version > the Medusa-based one. They are very similar.. > > -tony > The board is on flickr, put it on a few weeks ago. http://www.flickr.com/photos/hp-fix/4247818112/ -Rik From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jan 25 16:00:13 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 14:00:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5DF8DF.50009@vaxen.net> from Doc Shipley at "Jan 25, 10 02:02:39 pm" Message-ID: <201001252200.o0PM0DX2004016@floodgap.com> > > You can find personality in almost any computer subculture if you look > > hard enough. I've been involved with the "demoscene" since 1990 and no > > matter what platform a demo is written on, there's a lot of personality. > > > > I'd argue that IBM machinery definitely had a personality -- reliable, > > solid, strong, definitive. Artistic or creative? No. But intriguing > > all the same. > > Um. Can you say "OS/2"? OS/2 has a personality. What kind of personality is up to debate. ;-) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Where there's a will, there's a probate. ----------------------------------- (actually, I rather like OS/2) From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 16:02:12 2010 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 14:02:12 -0800 Subject: RTE-A VC install screen Message-ID: <1e1fc3e91001251402s7c0f01e8n9b8c9a27d077e096@mail.gmail.com> How did you get to this screen? http://www.flickr.com/photos/hp-fix/3300388502/ Was this a boot from a physical tape in a physical tape drive? A cartridge tape or 9-track? Do you have images of these boot tapes? I wonder what it would take to get something like the HPDrive emulator setup for HP-IB tape drives. I have an HP A900 but no boot/install tapes, and even if I had them I don't have any HP-IB tape drives. On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 1:48 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > > > The board is on flickr, put it on a few weeks ago. > http://www.flickr.com/photos/hp-fix/4247818112/ > > -Rik > From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Jan 25 16:08:51 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 14:08:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <201001252200.o0PM0DX2004016@floodgap.com> References: <201001252200.o0PM0DX2004016@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jan 2010, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> You can find personality in almost any computer subculture if you look >>> hard enough. I've been involved with the "demoscene" since 1990 and no >>> matter what platform a demo is written on, there's a lot of personality. >>> >>> I'd argue that IBM machinery definitely had a personality -- reliable, >>> solid, strong, definitive. Artistic or creative? No. But intriguing >>> all the same. >> >> Um. Can you say "OS/2"? > > OS/2 has a personality. What kind of personality is up to debate. ;-) > The PDP-11 version? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From doc at vaxen.net Mon Jan 25 16:09:48 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 16:09:48 -0600 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <201001252200.o0PM0DX2004016@floodgap.com> References: <201001252200.o0PM0DX2004016@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4B5E16AC.2080602@vaxen.net> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> You can find personality in almost any computer subculture if you look >>> hard enough. I've been involved with the "demoscene" since 1990 and no >>> matter what platform a demo is written on, there's a lot of personality. >>> >>> I'd argue that IBM machinery definitely had a personality -- reliable, >>> solid, strong, definitive. Artistic or creative? No. But intriguing >>> all the same. >> Um. Can you say "OS/2"? > > OS/2 has a personality. What kind of personality is up to debate. ;-) No argument from me on that score. In 2000-2003 I was teaching IBM's Linux curricula and all of Austin's OS/2 guys were scrambling to get Linux trained. Just about every in-house Linux class I tought in that time-frame had one OS/2 fanatic who couldn't care less about learning Linux. His whole motivation for attending would be proving to me, the other students, and Gawd that Linux will never be half the operating system OS/2 should have been. Doc From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jan 25 16:11:42 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 15:11:42 -0700 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5DC8EB.20903@verizon.net> References: <201001251602.o0PG2vX9018022@floodgap.com> <4B5DC4E1.2040109@verizon.net> <6dbe3c381001250832q3e5972efi5650d1427d3bcba8@mail.gmail.com> <4B5DC8EB.20903@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B5E171E.4060608@jetnet.ab.ca> Keith wrote: > Brian Lanning wrote: > >> >> Emacs: the greatest operating system ever created. >> >> :-) >> > > :) indeed. > > I was always a vi man myself. > (come on, some one take the bait!) Long live Elvis. :) > Keith > PS. I hate vi since I can never remember how exit the $#%! thing! From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 16:13:57 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 16:13:57 -0600 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <201001252200.o0PM0DX2004016@floodgap.com> References: <4B5DF8DF.50009@vaxen.net> <201001252200.o0PM0DX2004016@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001251413m51e02813re312e5678273564d@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 4:00 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > OS/2 has a personality. What kind of personality is up to debate. ;-) > This reminds me of the old joke that made the rounds relating various operating systems to airplanes and airports. It talked about various passenger experiences with "DOS airlines" and such. My favorite one was Unix... each passenger arrives at the airport with a piece of the airplane. They gather on the tarmac and begin to assemble the airplane, all the while arguing about what kind of airplane they're building. With OS/2 I have a mental image of bill gates dressed up as charlie chaplin serving drinks from one of those skinny airplane refreshment carts. brian From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 16:15:45 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 16:15:45 -0600 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5E171E.4060608@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <201001251602.o0PG2vX9018022@floodgap.com> <4B5DC4E1.2040109@verizon.net> <6dbe3c381001250832q3e5972efi5650d1427d3bcba8@mail.gmail.com> <4B5DC8EB.20903@verizon.net> <4B5E171E.4060608@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001251415p52e3529fuc25a852eb0586d10@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 4:11 PM, Ben wrote: > > PS. I hate vi since I can never remember how exit the $#%! thing! > > Lol, I have the same problem with emacs. I just kill the process from another terminal window. brian From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 25 16:23:47 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 17:23:47 -0500 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381001251415p52e3529fuc25a852eb0586d10@mail.gmail.com> References: <201001251602.o0PG2vX9018022@floodgap.com> <4B5DC4E1.2040109@verizon.net> <6dbe3c381001250832q3e5972efi5650d1427d3bcba8@mail.gmail.com> <4B5DC8EB.20903@verizon.net> <4B5E171E.4060608@jetnet.ab.ca> <6dbe3c381001251415p52e3529fuc25a852eb0586d10@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jan 25, 2010, at 5:15 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: >> PS. I hate vi since I can never remember how exit the $#%! thing! > > Lol, I have the same problem with emacs. I just kill the process from > another terminal window. Good grief, guys. Are :q and ^X^C really so difficult to remember? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 16:24:40 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 16:24:40 -0600 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: References: <201001251602.o0PG2vX9018022@floodgap.com> <4B5DC4E1.2040109@verizon.net> <6dbe3c381001250832q3e5972efi5650d1427d3bcba8@mail.gmail.com> <4B5DC8EB.20903@verizon.net> <4B5E171E.4060608@jetnet.ab.ca> <6dbe3c381001251415p52e3529fuc25a852eb0586d10@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001251424nb2b1a2dqe421e5f4eddf0a9e@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 4:23 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 25, 2010, at 5:15 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > >> PS. I hate vi since I can never remember how exit the $#%! thing! >>> >> >> Lol, I have the same problem with emacs. I just kill the process from >> another terminal window. >> > > Good grief, guys. Are :q and ^X^C really so difficult to remember? > > The first one is easy for me to remember. The other one is just too arcane. :-D brian From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 25 16:26:51 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 14:26:51 -0800 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <201001252200.o0PM0DX2004016@floodgap.com> References: <4B5DF8DF.50009@vaxen.net> from Doc Shipley at "Jan 25, 10 02:02:39 pm", <201001252200.o0PM0DX2004016@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4B5DAA2B.7568.13F031D@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Jan 2010 at 14:00, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Um. Can you say "OS/2"? > > OS/2 has a personality. What kind of personality is up to debate. ;-) Sniping aside, I recall OS/2 with fondness, but most of my experience goes no further than 2.1. If you laid out the long green for the PTI kit, development was a pleasant experience. The documentation was well organized and very accurate (and on real paper), technical support was prompt and courteous and you didn't have to beg for updates. After Warp, things got pretty crufty and it wasn't as much fun. Perhaps that's the case with all operating systems--they don't age gracefully. --Chuck From als at thangorodrim.de Mon Jan 25 16:36:31 2010 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 23:36:31 +0100 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381001250832q3e5972efi5650d1427d3bcba8@mail.gmail.com> References: <201001251602.o0PG2vX9018022@floodgap.com> <4B5DC4E1.2040109@verizon.net> <6dbe3c381001250832q3e5972efi5650d1427d3bcba8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100125223631.GA9042@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 10:32:41AM -0600, Brian Lanning wrote: > On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Keith wrote: > > > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > >> Isn't simply having much more choice about what hardware to use better > >>> than being given a smaller group to choose from? > >>> > >> > >> Also, emacs sucks. > >> > > > > Hahaha. I really should know better. > > > > From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emacs > > > > Eight Megabytes And Constantly Swapping > > Emacs Makes A Computer Slow > > Eventually Mallocs All Computer Storage > > Eventually Makes All Computers Sick > > > > alt.religion.emacs. haha. > > > > or vi-vi-vi, 666. > > > > What's wrong with these people? :) > > > > > Emacs: the greatest operating system ever created. Too bad the editor sucked. > :-) ;-) Although honestly, I use both editors (vi & emacs): emacs for typical coding and LaTeX sessions, vi for quick edit jobs, plain text and when wielding uid 0. Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From als at thangorodrim.de Mon Jan 25 16:50:23 2010 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 23:50:23 +0100 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: References: <201001251602.o0PG2vX9018022@floodgap.com> <4B5DC4E1.2040109@verizon.net> <6dbe3c381001250832q3e5972efi5650d1427d3bcba8@mail.gmail.com> <4B5DC8EB.20903@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20100125225023.GB9042@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 01:20:48PM -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 25, 2010, at 11:42 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> (come on, some one take the bait!) >> >> No thanks. Some of us had enough religion, with last week's >> Microsoft/Unix fapfest. > > "Religion", of course, being the term Windows fanboys use to dismiss > anything they don't like, even when it's presented with proof. That's > immature, disrespectful, unprofessional, and it makes one out to be a bit > of a dick. > > Here's your proof, once again: > ns$ uptime > 1:17pm up 1062 day(s), 14:23, 1 user, load average: 2.05, 1.65, > 1.85 IP address please[0], there probably were a few remote kernel bugs in the last 3 years. Yes, it is nice that $unixoid_OS can stay up for 3 years, but uptime alone is mostly only good for d?cksize wars - and 3 years probably doesn't impress the old VMS hands anyway. ;-) Regards, Alex. [0] nmap should deduce the OS remotely well enough -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From als at thangorodrim.de Mon Jan 25 16:53:19 2010 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 23:53:19 +0100 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: References: <201001251602.o0PG2vX9018022@floodgap.com> <4B5DC4E1.2040109@verizon.net> <6dbe3c381001250832q3e5972efi5650d1427d3bcba8@mail.gmail.com> <4B5DC8EB.20903@verizon.net> <4B5DEE77.6050808@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20100125225318.GC9042@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 02:42:16PM -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 25, 2010, at 2:18 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>>>> (come on, some one take the bait!) >>>> >>>> No thanks. Some of us had enough religion, with last week's >>>> Microsoft/Unix fapfest. >>> >>> "Religion", of course, being the term Windows fanboys use to >>> dismiss anything they don't like, even when it's presented with >>> proof. That's immature, disrespectful, unprofessional, and it makes >>> one out to be a bit of a dick. >> >> Ah, generalization. Yes, only Windows "fanboys" use this term. Ever. >> Because as you so often like to state, Windows users are all morons. >> Yes, *I'm* the dick here. > > I didn't say "only", and I certainly never called YOU a dick. Nor > would I. > >>> Here's your proof, once again: >>> >>> ns$ uptime >>> 1:17pm up 1062 day(s), 14:23, 1 user, load average: 2.05, 1.65, >>> 1.85 >>> ns$ >> >> Ah, proof, being in this case, "anecdotal evidence." > > You want an account on the machine to see for yourself? ;) If the machine is as well patched as the uptime implies then _I_ wouldn't be handing out accounts to other people. Want some more rain on your parade? *SCNR* HTH, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Jan 25 17:30:20 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 18:30:20 -0500 Subject: OT hardware flexibility and reliability, was Re: Museums Message-ID: <01CA9DEC.968C4BE0@MSE_D03> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 13:26:54 -0500 From: Dave McGuire Subject: OT hardware flexibility and reliability, was Re: Museums >I'll simply explain my point and move on. >Dave McGuire --------------------------------------------- Sigh... if only 'twere so; 'tis a consummation Devoutly to be wished... mike ******************** From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 25 17:46:29 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 18:46:29 -0500 Subject: OT hardware flexibility and reliability, was Re: Museums In-Reply-To: <01CA9DEC.968C4BE0@MSE_D03> References: <01CA9DEC.968C4BE0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: On Jan 25, 2010, at 6:30 PM, M H Stein wrote: > Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 13:26:54 -0500 > From: Dave McGuire > Subject: OT hardware flexibility and reliability, was Re: Museums > > > >> I'll simply explain my point and move on. > > > >> Dave McGuire > --------------------------------------------- > > Sigh... if only 'twere so; 'tis a consummation Devoutly to be > wished... Well, if people wouldn't keep spouting bull at me, perhaps I could! Now I've got a guy saying reliability isn't really important after all. Unbelievable! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 25 17:48:04 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 18:48:04 -0500 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <20100125225318.GC9042@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <201001251602.o0PG2vX9018022@floodgap.com> <4B5DC4E1.2040109@verizon.net> <6dbe3c381001250832q3e5972efi5650d1427d3bcba8@mail.gmail.com> <4B5DC8EB.20903@verizon.net> <4B5DEE77.6050808@mail.msu.edu> <20100125225318.GC9042@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: On Jan 25, 2010, at 5:53 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: >>>> ns$ uptime >>>> 1:17pm up 1062 day(s), 14:23, 1 user, load average: 2.05, >>>> 1.65, >>>> 1.85 >>>> ns$ >>> >>> Ah, proof, being in this case, "anecdotal evidence." >> >> You want an account on the machine to see for yourself? ;) > > If the machine is as well patched as the uptime implies then _I_ > wouldn't be handing out accounts to other people. I know and trust Josh, and the machine is reasonably well- patched. Your assumptions are showing. > Want some more rain on your parade? *SCNR* > Not getting wet here, sorry man. Nice try though! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 25 17:48:05 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 18:48:05 -0500 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <20100125225023.GB9042@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <201001251602.o0PG2vX9018022@floodgap.com> <4B5DC4E1.2040109@verizon.net> <6dbe3c381001250832q3e5972efi5650d1427d3bcba8@mail.gmail.com> <4B5DC8EB.20903@verizon.net> <20100125225023.GB9042@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <44F95682-9B56-4303-9FAF-3D91EB0CB105@neurotica.com> On Jan 25, 2010, at 5:50 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: >>>> (come on, some one take the bait!) >>> >>> No thanks. Some of us had enough religion, with last week's >>> Microsoft/Unix fapfest. >> >> "Religion", of course, being the term Windows fanboys use to >> dismiss >> anything they don't like, even when it's presented with proof. >> That's >> immature, disrespectful, unprofessional, and it makes one out to >> be a bit >> of a dick. >> >> Here's your proof, once again: >> ns$ uptime >> 1:17pm up 1062 day(s), 14:23, 1 user, load average: 2.05, 1.65, >> 1.85 > > IP address please[0], there probably were a few remote kernel bugs in > the last 3 years. Do you really want to make a run at it? > Yes, it is nice that $unixoid_OS can stay up for 3 > years, but uptime alone is mostly only good for d?cksize wars - Really? I find uptime to be good for a few other things as well, like keeping customers happy, keeping my job, keeping my cell phone from ringing at 3AM, etc etc. > and 3 > years probably doesn't impress the old VMS hands anyway. ;-) Being an old VMS hand myself, I think it's only a moderately impressive uptime, but I myself am not actually impressed at all, because that's the kind of reliability I demand from my equipment. Amazingly, I also expect my car to not randomly stall or catch on fire while I'm driving down the road. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Jan 25 17:47:59 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 15:47:59 -0800 Subject: OS/2 (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <4B5DAA2B.7568.13F031D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B5DF8DF.50009@vaxen.net> from Doc Shipley at "Jan 25, 10 02:02:39 pm", <201001252200.o0PM0DX2004016@floodgap.com> <4B5DAA2B.7568.13F031D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <09E4F716-7463-489B-A48D-B8295CC4D6F2@mail.msu.edu> On Jan 25, 2010, at 2:26 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 25 Jan 2010 at 14:00, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >>> Um. Can you say "OS/2"? >> >> OS/2 has a personality. What kind of personality is up to debate. ;-) > > Sniping aside, I recall OS/2 with fondness, but most of my experience > goes no further than 2.1. If you laid out the long green for the PTI > kit, development was a pleasant experience. The documentation was > well organized and very accurate (and on real paper), technical > support was prompt and courteous and you didn't have to beg for > updates. > > After Warp, things got pretty crufty and it wasn't as much fun. > Perhaps that's the case with all operating systems--they don't age > gracefully. > > --Chuck It occurs to me that OS/2 is one of the OSes I have yet to spend an appreciable amount of time with that I keep meaning to (another example being VMS...) Where would you guys suggest starting if I wanted to get a good feel for it? (what versions, what hardware, what fun software to play around with...) Heck, where would one get a legit copy of this these days? - Josh From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 18:19:04 2010 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:19:04 +1100 Subject: OS/2 (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <09E4F716-7463-489B-A48D-B8295CC4D6F2@mail.msu.edu> References: <4B5DF8DF.50009@vaxen.net> from Doc Shipley at "Jan 25, 10 02:02:39 pm", <201001252200.o0PM0DX2004016@floodgap.com> <4B5DAA2B.7568.13F031D@cclist.sydex.com> <09E4F716-7463-489B-A48D-B8295CC4D6F2@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4b5e34fc.101abc0a.715d.ffffdad9@mx.google.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Josh Dersch Sent: Tuesday, 26 January 2010 10:48 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: OS/2 (was Re: Museums) > It occurs to me that OS/2 is one of the OSes I have yet to spend an > appreciable amount of time with that I keep meaning to (another > example being VMS...) > Where would you guys suggest starting if I wanted to get a good feel > for it? (what versions, what hardware, what fun software to play > around with...) > Heck, where would one get a legit copy of this these days? Warp 4 (Warp 3 at a pinch) for the original, else you can by eComStation at http://www.ecomstation.com/ Warp turns up regularly at eBay As far as hardware, it isn't too demanding and will run on most modern PC's - drivers aren't such a big issue as there are generics available. My Warp 4.52 box is a 233MHz Pentium with 64mb RAM and an 8gb drive - more than sufficient for the task! For software, go to Hobbes - http://hobbes.nmsu.edu/ OS/2 still remains my one of my favourite OS's to this day. Cheers, Lance Lyon http://www.ferriesofsydney.com http://www.savethebaragoola.com http://www.commodore128.org From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jan 25 19:01:18 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 17:01:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5E171E.4060608@jetnet.ab.ca> from Ben at "Jan 25, 10 03:11:42 pm" Message-ID: <201001260101.o0Q11IcG011854@floodgap.com> > PS. I hate vi since I can never remember how exit the $#%! thing! Admiral Ackbar: "It's a TRAP!" -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- :wq! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 25 19:14:57 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 20:14:57 -0500 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <201001260101.o0Q11IcG011854@floodgap.com> References: <201001260101.o0Q11IcG011854@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Jan 25, 2010, at 8:01 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> PS. I hate vi since I can never remember how exit the $#%! thing! > > Admiral Ackbar: "It's a TRAP!" ROFL!! ROFLMAO!!! > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From evan at snarc.net Mon Jan 25 19:56:28 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 20:56:28 -0500 Subject: David Ahl sez: Phila. Computer Music Festival remastered onto CD Message-ID: <4B5E4BCC.4080804@snarc.net> Got this email from Dave Ahl tonight: -------------------------- Hi Evan: At VCF last summer, I mentioned the Phila Computer Music Festival (Aug 1978) and asked if anyone was interested in a CD of it. Quite a few hands went up. So I finally took the time to make a CD of the Festival. Unfortunately I had to start with the vinyl record because the tapes had long since disappeared. But in remastering it, I was able to balance the tracks (on the original, the left was at a higher volume) and also adjust the volume of the various pieces to make them more of less equal (there was a 50% difference on the original). So now I have remastered CDs available with all the original jacket and liner notes (slightly re-edited) for $7.95 postpaid in USA. Maybe you could put out a notice to the VCF list. Complete Info and how to order can be found at http://www.swapmeetdave.com/PhilaMusic/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 20:11:13 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 21:11:13 -0500 Subject: David Ahl sez: Phila. Computer Music Festival remastered onto CD In-Reply-To: <4B5E4BCC.4080804@snarc.net> References: <4B5E4BCC.4080804@snarc.net> Message-ID: > So now I have remastered CDs available with all the original jacket and > liner notes (slightly re-edited) for $7.95 postpaid in USA. Maybe you could > put out a notice to the VCF list. Complete Info and how to order can be > found at http://www.swapmeetdave.com/PhilaMusic/ Please make sure a copy of this gets to WFMU and KFJC. -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 25 20:29:53 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 19:29:53 -0700 Subject: Display peripherals for PDP-10 Message-ID: Do any of these still exist? >From 1970 PDP-10 reference manual, part 7, pg. 631: "346/ 340B PRECISION' INCREMENTAL CRT DIS- PLAY: plots points, lines, vectors, and char- acters on a 9 3/8 in. square raster of 1,024 points along each axis. 1 1/2 us is required per point in vector, increment, and character modes. Random point plotting rate of 35/is. A 370 high-speed Light Pen is included. 342B CHARACTER GENERATOR for 346/ 340B 348/VR30 PRECISION POINT PLOTTING DISPLAY: operates at a maximum plotting rate of 20 KC or one' point every 50 ,ts on a 9% in. x 9% in. display area. Number of addressable points along each axis is 1024. A 370 high-speed Light Pen is included. ' VP10 POINT PLOTIING DISPLAY CONTROL: operates at either of two maximum' plotting rates. Low rateis 10 KC (one point every 100 ns). High rate is 50 KC (one point every 20 Ms). Number of addressable points along each axis is 1024. Control interfaces to. a cus- tomer supplied oscilloscope (Tektronix Type RM503 or equivalent) or to a CRT display. 370 HIGH SPEED LIGHT PEN: for use with VPl0." I'd never heard of there being graphics display peripherals. Looks like these are storage tube technology based, even though the description says "raster". I think here they just mean the addressable range of points on the tube. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 20:42:01 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 21:42:01 -0500 Subject: Display peripherals for PDP-10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Do any of these still exist? Doubtful - unless there is one stashed away in a garage, which is always a possibility. I think the bad news is that these things were likely made in such low numbers that survival will be tough. Ten? Twenty units? The same is true for the CDC graphics displays (not the CC545 Cyber Console, but the real graphics unit) - likely only a handful were made. Even the best seller, the IBM 2250 - are there any left? -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 25 20:45:07 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 19:45:07 -0700 Subject: ebay: PDP-11/03, dual RL02, RX02 Message-ID: Sitting at $100 right now. Seems like a good price. Item # 150408425839 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Jan 25 21:17:01 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 22:17:01 -0500 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5E16AC.2080602@vaxen.net> References: <201001252200.o0PM0DX2004016@floodgap.com> <4B5E16AC.2080602@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <201001252217.02334.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 25 January 2010, Doc Shipley wrote: > No argument from me on that score. > > In 2000-2003 I was teaching IBM's Linux curricula and all of > Austin's OS/2 guys were scrambling to get Linux trained. Just about > every in-house Linux class I tought in that time-frame had one OS/2 > fanatic who couldn't care less about learning Linux. His whole > motivation for attending would be proving to me, the other students, > and Gawd that Linux will never be half the operating system OS/2 > should have been. At work, I hear the same thing from some people, except it's Solaris or AIX instead of OS/2... Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Jan 26 01:29:57 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 08:29:57 +0100 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100126072957.GA31588@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 03:13:24PM -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 1/25/10, Doc Shipley wrote: > > emacs would be an awesome operating system, if it had a decent text editor.... > > It does... > > M-x viper-mode > > *ducks and runs* > > -ethan Yesterday I thought about how anoying and off topic these religious wars are and that I better stay out of them. But today I realised that religious wars has been going on for as long as there has been a user community of computers. So, please, do go on, it is very much classic, retro and on topic for this list :D /P From als at thangorodrim.de Tue Jan 26 01:56:33 2010 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 08:56:33 +0100 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <44F95682-9B56-4303-9FAF-3D91EB0CB105@neurotica.com> References: <201001251602.o0PG2vX9018022@floodgap.com> <4B5DC4E1.2040109@verizon.net> <6dbe3c381001250832q3e5972efi5650d1427d3bcba8@mail.gmail.com> <4B5DC8EB.20903@verizon.net> <20100125225023.GB9042@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <44F95682-9B56-4303-9FAF-3D91EB0CB105@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20100126075633.GA3494@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 06:48:05PM -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 25, 2010, at 5:50 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: >>>>> (come on, some one take the bait!) >>>> >>>> No thanks. Some of us had enough religion, with last week's >>>> Microsoft/Unix fapfest. >>> >>> "Religion", of course, being the term Windows fanboys use to >>> dismiss >>> anything they don't like, even when it's presented with proof. >>> That's >>> immature, disrespectful, unprofessional, and it makes one out to be a >>> bit >>> of a dick. >>> >>> Here's your proof, once again: >>> ns$ uptime >>> 1:17pm up 1062 day(s), 14:23, 1 user, load average: 2.05, 1.65, >>> 1.85 >> >> IP address please[0], there probably were a few remote kernel bugs in >> the last 3 years. > > Do you really want to make a run at it? For legal reasons: no. And if that didn't get in the way of it, not without the express permission of the owner, for not wanting to act like a digital hooligan. >> Yes, it is nice that $unixoid_OS can stay up for 3 >> years, but uptime alone is mostly only good for d?cksize wars - > > Really? I find uptime to be good for a few other things as well, like > keeping customers happy, keeping my job, keeping my cell phone from > ringing at 3AM, etc etc. Well, usually the thing that gets in the way of high uptimes these days in proper systems is not the machine crashing, but either upgrades or security patches, including ones were a reboot is needed to run a new kernel. Another thing killing uptime is the bloody hardware failing. >> and 3 >> years probably doesn't impress the old VMS hands anyway. ;-) > > Being an old VMS hand myself, I think it's only a moderately > impressive uptime, but I myself am not actually impressed at all, > because that's the kind of reliability I demand from my equipment. Modern hardware, and especially disks, still fail too damn often. Have enough machines up and running and you'll lose a disk almost every day. And that is with the good (high MTBF) stuff. > Amazingly, I also expect my car to not randomly stall or catch on fire > while I'm driving down the road. Different rules apply there. Cars randomly catching on fire tends to be expensive for the manufacturer, disks dying after two years doesn't, usually. Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue Jan 26 02:10:40 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 08:10:40 -0000 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5E171E.4060608@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <201001251602.o0PG2vX9018022@floodgap.com> <4B5DC4E1.2040109@verizon.net> <6dbe3c381001250832q3e5972efi5650d1427d3bcba8@mail.gmail.com><4B5DC8EB.20903@verizon.net> <4B5E171E.4060608@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <7291CC5AD6A74BB4AD89E0195447B6F9@EDIConsultingLtd.local> With regard to Museums there's something they could do to help the collector community. There's a tendency for them to accept any and every thing and just put it into storage. They only pick items to restore and display with the widest appeal. Many exhibits are static insofar as they don't run. Collectors in the main have very little storage but do attempt to get what they have running. Is it not better for the museums to loan out systems to collectors who will get them going again and either return or keep them in working order. Most computer museums do want volunteers but that involves traveling to the museum site to work. Worse still they tend to put technically competent people to work cleaning floors and painting buildings. Regards Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ben Sent: 25 January 2010 22:12 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Museums Keith wrote: > Brian Lanning wrote: > >> >> Emacs: the greatest operating system ever created. >> >> :-) >> > > :) indeed. > > I was always a vi man myself. > (come on, some one take the bait!) Long live Elvis. :) > Keith > PS. I hate vi since I can never remember how exit the $#%! thing! From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 26 02:17:42 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 03:17:42 -0500 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <20100126075633.GA3494@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <201001251602.o0PG2vX9018022@floodgap.com> <4B5DC4E1.2040109@verizon.net> <6dbe3c381001250832q3e5972efi5650d1427d3bcba8@mail.gmail.com> <4B5DC8EB.20903@verizon.net> <20100125225023.GB9042@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <44F95682-9B56-4303-9FAF-3D91EB0CB105@neurotica.com> <20100126075633.GA3494@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <64B8FF93-34B5-47CA-9889-6D4B80B54A85@neurotica.com> On Jan 26, 2010, at 2:56 AM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: >>> IP address please[0], there probably were a few remote kernel >>> bugs in >>> the last 3 years. >> >> Do you really want to make a run at it? > > For legal reasons: no. And if that didn't get in the way of it, not > without the express permission of the owner, for not wanting to act > like > a digital hooligan. Ahh, my faith in you is restored. ;) But I did just upgrade sshd on that machine just in case! =) > Well, usually the thing that gets in the way of high uptimes these > days > in proper systems is not the machine crashing, but either upgrades or > security patches, including ones were a reboot is needed to run a new > kernel. The latter situation is the only case where I end up doing it. With modern kernels being so ridiculously module-oriented, I almost never really need to reboot, though. > Another thing killing uptime is the bloody hardware failing. I generally don't experience that. > Modern hardware, and especially disks, still fail too damn often. Have > enough machines up and running and you'll lose a disk almost every > day. > And that is with the good (high MTBF) stuff. Yes. Years ago, I managed a network of over 1,000 machines (mostly Sun SPARCstation-2s with some -5s sprinkled about) and I did see some disk failures. They involved downtime, a screwdriver, the spinning up of Exabyte tapes, and a lot of cursing in the datacenter. Very annoying. Nowadays, thank heaven, I just replace the failed drive and watch the array resync while sipping a latte and reading an issue of EDN, and the customer never knows it happened. I've done rolling upgrades of system disks (as in, completely replaced boot volumes) without shutting machines down that way. I rotate drives out of service *usually* before they fail, but when they do, there's no downtime involved. I very, very rarely reboot most of the computers that I'm responsible for because, most of the time, it just isn't required. >> Amazingly, I also expect my car to not randomly stall or catch >> on fire >> while I'm driving down the road. > > Different rules apply there. Cars randomly catching on fire tends > to be > expensive for the manufacturer, disks dying after two years doesn't, > usually. Heh, unfortunately! ;) But what I was really referring to is operating systems needing to be preemptively rebooted to keep them stable, and other absurd stuff like that. Nobody should put up with that. The fact that many people DO put up with it doesn't change the fact that it's just plain silly. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 06:25:34 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 07:25:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: scandoubler/flicker fixer etc. recommendations In-Reply-To: <201001241719.o0OHJGUm011250@floodgap.com> References: <201001241719.o0OHJGUm011250@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Jan 2010, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>> I've had great results from the Highway 100 scan converter. It's a bit >>>> pricey, but produces a rock-solid scan-doubled image from my Amiga 2000 in >>>> interlaced 640x480 mode. It even supports the somewhat (well, very) >>>> oddball color output from an Apple IIgs. >>> >>> Steve, is this the one you're talking about? >>> >>> http://www.converters.tv/products/pal_to_vga/100.html >> >> Yes, that's the one. I run into the RGB input. I actually think that it >> can handle NTSC composite input as well, but have never tried it. > > How do you have it connected to the IIgs? What pins do you have where? Thusly: http://vintageware.orconhosting.net.nz/apple2/scart.html You may need to expirement a bit with the sync. I got my best results using the pinouts at the above web page (IIgs composite sync output). Others have reported that using the IIgs composite _video_ output produced a clearly display. So, best to assemble things at the computer end to permit this to be switched. The function-select and RGB control voltages are derived by using series resistors from the IIgs +12V out. That's probably fine for function-select, since it wants 9-12v for "AV" mode, but for RGB control it relies on the internal impedence to provide the bottom leg of a voltage divider. It works (shrug), but isn't a terribly elegant approach. The only visual artifacts in my case were some very fine vertical lines. I don't find them very obtrusive, but YMMV. Folks on comp.sys.apple2 have suggested that low-pass filters in the video signal lines might help. Never tried it. You can peruse many threads of discussion on the issue of IIgs video conversion by using Google Groups to search the csa2 archives. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 06:26:55 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 07:26:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: Free in Seattle - SGI Personal Iris 4D/35 & Iris File In-Reply-To: <20100124174658.d65fb9b1.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <012420100635.22018.4B5BEA22000B5C880000560222230682329B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> <4B5BFDCF.4010007@mail.msu.edu> <20100124174658.d65fb9b1.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Jan 2010, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Sat, 23 Jan 2010 23:59:11 -0800 > Josh Dersch wrote: > >>> Does it have the Keyboard and mouse ?? >> No, just the main unit. I only have one old-style SGI keyboard/mouse >> and I need it for my Crimson, alas... > Indigo Keyboard and Mouse Converter > http://rshockley.dyndns.org/indigo.htm > Should work on the PI also. I have one of these. Highly recommended! -- From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Mon Jan 25 08:25:47 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 08:25:47 -0600 Subject: PDP 8A value? In-Reply-To: <201001242039.26112.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201001242039.26112.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4B5DA9EB.7030007@tx.rr.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Sunday 24 January 2010, 9000 VAX wrote: >> 10% >> #280456133366 >> >> Thanks. > > "This listing (280456133366) has been removed, or this item is not > available." > > Pat For some reason, I still see 2 days, 12 hours left; starting bid US $499 and 0 bids. I copied and pasted the item number from both messages above with the same result. Later, Charlie Carothers From waisun.chia at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 09:45:07 2010 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 23:45:07 +0800 Subject: Part Number for a MicroVAX II Fan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 2:30 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > Finally got round to getting the fan out. It is a 120mm fan, marked as > > follows: > > > > Nidec > > Torin > > TA450DC > > Model A 31728-10 > > 10 V.D.C > > 30 AMP > > I do not believe for one instant that that fan draws 30A! 0.3A, quite > possibly. > > Yes. On the sticker is actually .30 AMP. There's a decimal point before the 30. Here's some pictures. Pardon the quality. These came from my phone camera. From chrise at pobox.com Mon Jan 25 14:53:22 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 14:53:22 -0600 Subject: General machine cleaning In-Reply-To: <201001251934.o0PJY0ck082520@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <6dbe3c381001250803p4f77e942q39cb73c8bded26e2@mail.gmail.com> <201001251934.o0PJY0ck082520@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <20100125205322.GA1463@n0jcf.net> On Monday (01/25/2010 at 01:29PM -0600), John Foust wrote: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melamine_foam > > "In the early 21st century it was discovered that melamine foam was an > effective abrasive cleaner. The open cell foam is microporous and its > polymeric substance is extremely hard, so that when used for cleaning > it works like extremely fine sandpaper, getting into tiny grooves and > pits in the object being cleaned." It also works great as an additive in baby formula and pet food! oh wait... -- Chris Elmquist From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Mon Jan 25 15:18:11 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 15:18:11 -0600 Subject: Recurring subject: Goo removal In-Reply-To: <20100125190909.99530c6d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4B5C45D9.1656.F97BEB@cclist.sydex.com> <20100125190909.99530c6d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4B5E0A93.1000106@tx.rr.com> Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 13:06:33 -0800 > "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > >> I was going through some of my old equipment and decided to see if my >> old DDS autochanger still worked. > \begin{troll} > DDS and working is paradox. There is no working DDS. (Working in the > sense of "You can read back what you have written onto it.") > > Don't waste your time with a DDS drive. Trash ist and you are done. > \end{troll} > > Goo removal: Try with acetone or benzine. (petroleum aether? Don't know > the english word.) Be carefull with acetone. It will dissolve many > plastics. I believe benzene is a known carcinogen. I used to use something called "Painter's Friend" to slightly soften the existing oil based enamel before applying a new coat on interior trim. It contained benzene, and I don't believe it is still available as a result. I was sorry to see it go in a way as it worked really well. Of course I'd rather not get cancer either... Later, Charlie Carothers From wgungfu at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 21:58:09 2010 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 21:58:09 -0600 Subject: Square D Sy/Max 8010-SPR-300 Programmer rescued Message-ID: <2c768b1e1001251958r7c9ea179s69d0f5da43b9a7b9@mail.gmail.com> Hey all, just rescued a Sy/Max Programmer today. Same model as the following: http://www.maraindustrial.com/catalog/8010SPR300.jpg Unlike that pic, everything looks in great condition. Thought I'd check here for any interest. Looking for trades or cash (which will ultimately go towards other equipment anyways). Marty From james at jfc.org.uk Tue Jan 26 06:35:59 2010 From: james at jfc.org.uk (James Carter) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:35:59 +0000 Subject: Univac 422 sighting In-Reply-To: <4B519BA0.13703.4E85CE@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B519BA0.13703.4E85CE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1264509359.12443.6.camel@pc004.cs.york.ac.uk> On Sat, 2010-01-16 at 10:57 -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Just happened to see one on an ancient rerun of the "Patty Duke > Show". very nice shots too - well spotted, chuck! by coincidence, is happens to be the 300th feature on starring-the-computer: http://www.starringthecomputer.com/feature.php?f=300 another classic sighting that i've not seen mentioned here before is the CDC 924 in the terminator: http://www.starringthecomputer.com/feature.php?f=296 -- James F. Carter www.jfc.org.uk podquiz.com starringthecomputer.com From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Tue Jan 26 08:21:27 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 06:21:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Unix/Windows/OS Fap Fests In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <442982.57436.qm@web113502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> "strange game. The only winning move is not to play." "........How about a nice game of chess?" Seriously this is tiresome and it's usually the same players over and over again. You are not proving your technical l33tness, you are just annoying the rest of us who wish to discuss vintage computing. From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Tue Jan 26 08:25:48 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 06:25:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <20100126072957.GA31588@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <430737.94925.qm@web113501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> If this was a religious war per say in the realm of: Apple II vs Commodore Atari vs Amiga CP/M vs DOS I would be somewhat amused. But these constant Unix vs. X or Windows vs. X or Mac vs. X are quite annoying and if you go through the threads, you will see the same people over and over and over again. --- On Tue, 1/26/10, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Yesterday I thought about how anoying and off topic these > religious wars > are and that I better stay out of them. But today I > realised that > religious wars has been going on for as long as there has > been a user > community of computers. So, please, do go on, it is very > much classic, > retro and on topic for this list :D > > /P > From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 08:35:19 2010 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 09:35:19 -0500 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <430737.94925.qm@web113501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <20100126072957.GA31588@Update.UU.SE> <430737.94925.qm@web113501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e1001260635y2e86653clcb74fdc6ddd6f160@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 9:25 AM, Christian Liendo < christian_liendo at yahoo.com> wrote: > If this was a religious war per say in the realm of: > > Apple II vs Commodore > Atari vs Amiga > CP/M vs DOS > > I would be somewhat amused. > > But these constant Unix vs. X or Windows vs. X or Mac vs. X are quite > annoying and if you go through the threads, you will see the same people > over and over and over again. > > How about: QBus vs Unibus VT100 vs 3270 OS/370 vs VAX/VMS SPARC vs MIPS (vs Alpha) :) From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Jan 26 08:39:39 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 09:39:39 -0500 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <5f7d1b0e1001260635y2e86653clcb74fdc6ddd6f160@mail.gmail.com> References: <20100126072957.GA31588@Update.UU.SE>, <430737.94925.qm@web113501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <5f7d1b0e1001260635y2e86653clcb74fdc6ddd6f160@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: OS9 - the one true OS to rule them all! :P Dan. > Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 09:35:19 -0500 > Subject: Re: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) > From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 9:25 AM, Christian Liendo < > christian_liendo at yahoo.com> wrote: > > > If this was a religious war per say in the realm of: > > > > Apple II vs Commodore > > Atari vs Amiga > > CP/M vs DOS > > > > I would be somewhat amused. > > > > But these constant Unix vs. X or Windows vs. X or Mac vs. X are quite > > annoying and if you go through the threads, you will see the same people > > over and over and over again. > > > > > How about: > > QBus vs Unibus > VT100 vs 3270 > OS/370 vs VAX/VMS > SPARC vs MIPS (vs Alpha) > > :) _________________________________________________________________ Say Happy New Year with Messenger for Mobile. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9706117 From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Tue Jan 26 08:39:56 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 06:39:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <5f7d1b0e1001260635y2e86653clcb74fdc6ddd6f160@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <863188.61969.qm@web113509.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Intel 8080 vs. 6502 vs. Z80 WGF (World Geek Federation) Three Way Mashup.. --- On Tue, 1/26/10, Jason McBrien wrote: > > QBus vs Unibus > VT100 vs 3270 > OS/370 vs VAX/VMS > SPARC vs MIPS (vs Alpha) > > :) > From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Jan 26 08:41:14 2010 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 09:41:14 -0500 Subject: Floomla / Floola Message-ID: <4B5EFF0A.6080101@sbcglobal.net> > From: Keith > Sent: Mon, January 25, 2010 10:53:21 AM > Subject: Re: Museums > > ... > > Floomla is a decent free ipod app, btw... > > Keith This got me curious and looking... But I've got some detailed questions that I haven't been able to realy answer via Google. Can I contact you directly, Keith, (or any other Floola user) about it? Reply direct to me, since this is OT.... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jan 26 08:42:28 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 06:42:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: from Dan Gahlinger at "Jan 26, 10 09:39:39 am" Message-ID: <201001261442.o0QEgSmx011020@floodgap.com> > OS9 - the one true OS to rule them all! :P Exactly! *fires up Classilla* -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Any clod can have the facts, but having an opinion is an art. -- C. McCabe - (oh, you didn't mean Mac OS 9?) From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jan 26 08:44:14 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 06:44:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <5f7d1b0e1001260635y2e86653clcb74fdc6ddd6f160@mail.gmail.com> from Jason McBrien at "Jan 26, 10 09:35:19 am" Message-ID: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> > > If this was a religious war per say in the realm of: > > > > Apple II vs Commodore > > Atari vs Amiga > > CP/M vs DOS > > > > I would be somewhat amused. > > > > But these constant Unix vs. X or Windows vs. X or Mac vs. X are quite > > annoying and if you go through the threads, you will see the same people > > over and over and over again. > > > > > How about: > > QBus vs Unibus > VT100 vs 3270 > OS/370 vs VAX/VMS > SPARC vs MIPS (vs Alpha) PowerPC versus x86 ... just because we lost doesn't mean we don't keep having that fight. ;-) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "The ants are my friends/They're blowing in the wind" ---------------------- From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 08:47:37 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 09:47:37 -0500 Subject: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) Message-ID: On 1/26/10, Christian Liendo wrote: > Intel 8080 vs. 6502 vs. Z80 > > WGF (World Geek Federation) Three Way Mashup.. I remember 6502 vs Z80 back in the day, and in the S-100 world, there was plenty of 8080 vs Z80, but IIRC, there wasn't a lot of user overlap between those that might run an 8080 vs the 6502. I was a bit young for the S-100 era - I used an occasional machine when visiting family friends, but was myself solidly in the 6502 camp as far back as 1977 with the PET - it was what we could afford, so that's the way it went at my family's house. Perhaps it was different for the guys who had an 8080 machine and watched the 6502 gobble up the low-end market. I myself never heard anyone espousing the "obvious merits" of the 8080 in the late 1970s, but I can concede that I might not have hung around that crowd. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 08:57:40 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 09:57:40 -0500 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <5f7d1b0e1001260635y2e86653clcb74fdc6ddd6f160@mail.gmail.com> References: <20100126072957.GA31588@Update.UU.SE> <430737.94925.qm@web113501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <5f7d1b0e1001260635y2e86653clcb74fdc6ddd6f160@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/26/10, Jason McBrien wrote: > How about: > > QBus vs Unibus When I was doing DEC stuff every day, we never had any Qbus vs Unibus tension - if you had peripherals that were largely older and larger, you probably had a Unibus box. If you came onto the scene later, especially after the uVAXen were released, lower budgets steered you towards Qbus, larger installations tended towards Unibus. All this stuff was so expensive that hobbyists rarely had Unibus equipment unless it was long past commercial viability (like having an 11/05 in the early 1980s when DEC was selling the 11/04 and 11/34). I know a few folks that had LSI-11s when they were semi-current, and for them, the "religious argument" was minicomputer vs microcomputer. That particular one was probably because the cost of DEC gear was high enough that it needed some justification in the minds of a few who shelled out for it. > VT100 vs 3270 That's just a subset of DEC vs IBM, an old but vigorous one. You couldn't stick a VT100 on a mainframe (terminal emulator packages aside) and you couldn't stick a 3270 on a VAX, so besides arguing that the 3270 was faster (it wasn't async serial at 9600 baud) and the VT100 was cheaper (but was still well over $1500, IIRC), it came down to session-based vs interactive, which kicks upstairs to DEC vs IBM. > OS/370 vs VAX/VMS Same thing. > SPARC vs MIPS (vs Alpha) That one is more like it - "my workstation is better than yours!" A broader offshoot of that is CISC vs RISC, which tended to translate to either VAX vs UNIX workstation or 680x0 workstation vs RISC workstation depending on the audience and what they used every day. -ethan From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 09:01:22 2010 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 10:01:22 -0500 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> References: <5f7d1b0e1001260635y2e86653clcb74fdc6ddd6f160@mail.gmail.com> <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4affc5e1001260701s41e35449w3261049f411cd91f@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 09:44, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> SPARC vs MIPS (vs Alpha) > > PowerPC versus x86 ... just because we lost doesn't mean we don't keep > having that fight. ;-) Interestingly enough a similar new fight in the same RISC vs CISC (if those labels are actually sill relevant in todays virtualisied on-the-fly recompilation processor architectures) wars seems to be the upcoming ARM-vs-Intel (Atom, or Pinetrail or whatever) flamewars! Already some skirmishes are happening on the smartphone/tablet borders, but fanboys on either side are prepping their keyboards on the emerging netbook front... Heavy casualties expected on all tech blogs. Civilians are asked to say well clear of the bleeding edge tech, as interesting hardware will no doubt to be deemed obsolete within a year, and can then be had second hand for a song :-) -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 09:10:38 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 10:10:38 -0500 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: References: <20100126072957.GA31588@Update.UU.SE> <430737.94925.qm@web113501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <5f7d1b0e1001260635y2e86653clcb74fdc6ddd6f160@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > That's just a subset of DEC vs IBM, an old but vigorous one. ?You > couldn't stick a VT100 on a mainframe (terminal emulator packages > aside) and you couldn't stick a 3270 on a VAX, I think you could (either way), with the appropriate 3rd party stuff. DEC was not completely unaware of block mode terminals (VT62? And I think a VT-100oid?). -- Will From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Jan 26 09:15:09 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 16:15:09 +0100 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <5f7d1b0e1001260635y2e86653clcb74fdc6ddd6f160@mail.gmail.com> References: <20100126072957.GA31588@Update.UU.SE> <430737.94925.qm@web113501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <5f7d1b0e1001260635y2e86653clcb74fdc6ddd6f160@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100126151508.GA12268@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 09:35:19AM -0500, Jason McBrien wrote: > > QBus vs Unibus > VT100 vs 3270 > OS/370 vs VAX/VMS > SPARC vs MIPS (vs Alpha) > > :) Was there ever a big endian vx little endian war? /P From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 09:19:46 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 10:19:46 -0500 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: References: <20100126072957.GA31588@Update.UU.SE> <430737.94925.qm@web113501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <5f7d1b0e1001260635y2e86653clcb74fdc6ddd6f160@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/26/10, William Donzelli wrote: >> That's just a subset of DEC vs IBM, an old but vigorous one. You >> couldn't stick a VT100 on a mainframe (terminal emulator packages >> aside) and you couldn't stick a 3270 on a VAX, > > I think you could (either way), with the appropriate 3rd party stuff. Yes, but it was a sliver of the overall terminal market. One of the things you could use a COMBOARD for was a 3270 session from your VT100 - but there was $15000 in add-on hardware/software between the VT100 user and the PU Type 4 on the other end of the modem to make that happen. It didn't spawn a lot of VT100 vs 3270 arguments. > DEC was not completely unaware of block mode terminals (VT62? And I > think a VT-100oid?). The VT62 supported block mode, but was, IIRC, a one-trick pony (it was apparently used for typesetting apps). The VT100-era version was the VT131. With either model, it was the application you used that took advantage of block mode; DEC OSes weren't block-mode-friendly. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 09:24:57 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 10:24:57 -0500 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <20100126151508.GA12268@Update.UU.SE> References: <20100126072957.GA31588@Update.UU.SE> <430737.94925.qm@web113501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <5f7d1b0e1001260635y2e86653clcb74fdc6ddd6f160@mail.gmail.com> <20100126151508.GA12268@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On 1/26/10, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > Was there ever a big endian vx little endian war? I don't know about a war, but there was lots of grumbling about it when programmers and software migrated between different architectures. It's not just software - I have some "Rev 0" COMBOARDs where the endiness of the onboard 68000 didn't logically match up with the endiness of the Unibus - there were hardware and software hacks for the prototype boards to get them working enough for the developers to have a platform. Rev 1 boards had the high and low bytes swapped so that writing a 16-bit quantity on one processor would result in the same 16-bit quantity read by the other processor. Nothing new there - there are old network protocol problems as well (talk vs ntalk). It's easy to write code or build hardware for your preferred byte order. Something that's architecture agnostic takes more work. I don't remember much of "my order is the one, true order" except as part of the larger context of Motorola vs Intel or VAX vs Motorola or any of the other architecture wars. -ethan From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 09:58:15 2010 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 10:58:15 -0500 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: References: <20100126072957.GA31588@Update.UU.SE> <430737.94925.qm@web113501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <5f7d1b0e1001260635y2e86653clcb74fdc6ddd6f160@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e1001260758n7abfd8f4rec8e22da09666b1a@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 9:57 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 1/26/10, Jason McBrien wrote: > > VT100 vs 3270 > > That's just a subset of DEC vs IBM, > In college we had both - an Amdahl with 5250's on local controllers, and VT220's connected to various smaller VAXen (and some UNIX terminal servers). There was much debate as to which was the superior setup. Interactive vs. session didn't really enter into it - as far as most users were concerned it was like using two different applications, the terminals just behaved somewhat differently. Now as far as screen color, keyboard layout, keyboard action, responsiveness, size, even the whine of the flyback transformers, people had widely varying opinions. Verging into the realm of religious-scale throwdowns? Usually no, but in the support department you'd hear professors raised on VT100's complaining loudly over how clunky the 5250's were to work with when they had to use SPSS on one, and vice-versa when someone had to use Maple on a VAX. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 26 10:13:46 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 08:13:46 -0800 Subject: Great old IBM Pic's Message-ID: Someone at work forwarded this link to me, knowing I like old computers. Definitely a nice set of photo's. http://www.luckham.org/LHL.Bell%20Labs%20Days.html Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue Jan 26 10:17:46 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 08:17:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> PowerPC didn't really lose though, did it? I mean, it did in the desktop sector, but it's still quite ubiquitous in embedded-land. (goes back to using his PPC debugger) ________________________________ From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Tue, January 26, 2010 8:44:14 AM Subject: Re: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) > > If this was a religious war per say in the realm of: > > > > Apple II vs Commodore > > Atari vs Amiga > > CP/M vs DOS > > > > I would be somewhat amused. > > > > But these constant Unix vs. X or Windows vs. X or Mac vs. X are quite > > annoying and if you go through the threads, you will see the same people > > over and over and over again. > > > > > How about: > > QBus vs Unibus > VT100 vs 3270 > OS/370 vs VAX/VMS > SPARC vs MIPS (vs Alpha) PowerPC versus x86 ... just because we lost doesn't mean we don't keep having that fight. ;-) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "The ants are my friends/They're blowing in the wind" ---------------------- From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 10:22:14 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:22:14 -0500 Subject: Great old IBM Pic's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/26/10, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Someone at work forwarded this link to me, knowing I like old > computers. Definitely a nice set of photo's. > > http://www.luckham.org/LHL.Bell%20Labs%20Days.html What a great blast from the past. I remember scenes like those from when I was a kid and we'd go on field trips to places like Rockwell and Battelle. -ethan From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Tue Jan 26 10:54:45 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 17:54:45 +0100 Subject: RTE-A VC install screen In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e91001251402s7c0f01e8n9b8c9a27d077e096@mail.gmail.com> References: <1e1fc3e91001251402s7c0f01e8n9b8c9a27d077e096@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Glen Slick > Verzonden: maandag 25 januari 2010 23:02 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: RTE-A VC install screen > > How did you get to this screen? > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/hp-fix/3300388502/ Booting from CS80-tape .. I've a HP 7912R HP-IB drive with build in tape unit. > > Was this a boot from a physical tape in a physical tape > drive? A cartridge tape or 9-track? Do you have images of > these boot tapes? > > I wonder what it would take to get something like the HPDrive > emulator setup for HP-IB tape drives. I have an HP A900 but > no boot/install tapes, and even if I had them I don't have > any HP-IB tape drives. I'm able to make a binary image of the disc, with a tool named LIFDIAG.EXE It runs on DOS or WIN95/98 dosbox, but you need a HP 82335A HP-IB card to place the image back on a HP-IB drive. But I think it shoudn't be difficult to use the image with the HP-IB disc emulator. And I think you have to mirror my HP1000-configuration. > On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 1:48 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > > > > > > The board is on flickr, put it on a few weeks ago. > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/hp-fix/4247818112/ > > > > -Rik - Rik From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jan 26 10:58:58 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 09:58:58 -0700 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: References: <20100126072957.GA31588@Update.UU.SE>, <430737.94925.qm@web113501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <5f7d1b0e1001260635y2e86653clcb74fdc6ddd6f160@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B5F1F52.8040306@jetnet.ab.ca> Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > OS9 - the one true OS to rule them all! :P > > Dan. Now is that the 6809 version? PS: Other than GUI interfaces, has a OS better than the classic PDP-11 unix came out? Memory size don't count here. From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jan 26 11:20:16 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 09:20:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Great old IBM Pic's In-Reply-To: from Ethan Dicks at "Jan 26, 10 11:22:14 am" Message-ID: <201001261720.o0QHKGaa011888@floodgap.com> > > Someone at work forwarded this link to me, knowing I like old > > computers. Definitely a nice set of photo's. > > > > http://www.luckham.org/LHL.Bell%20Labs%20Days.html > > What a great blast from the past. I remember scenes like those from > when I was a kid and we'd go on field trips to places like Rockwell > and Battelle. Those are wonderful pictures. Although I have to confess my favourite was his secretary. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- /etc/motd: /earth is 98% full. please delete anyone you can. --------------- From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 26 11:22:13 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 09:22:13 -0800 Subject: Recurring subject: Goo removal In-Reply-To: <4B5E0A93.1000106@tx.rr.com> References: <4B5C45D9.1656.F97BEB@cclist.sydex.com>, <20100125190909.99530c6d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, <4B5E0A93.1000106@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4B5EB445.21358.1254CF@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Jan 2010 at 15:18, CSquared wrote: > > Goo removal: Try with acetone or benzine. (petroleum aether? Don't > > know the english word.) Be carefull with acetone. It will dissolve > > many plastics. > I believe benzene is a known carcinogen. I used to use something > called "Painter's Friend" to slightly soften the existing oil based > enamel before applying a new coat on interior trim. It contained > benzene, and I don't believe it is still available as a result. I was > sorry to see it go in a way as it worked really well. Of course I'd > rather not get cancer either... Once upon a time that threw me too, but benzine != benzene, as I discovered. Benzine is naphta, but benzene == C6H6 == nasty stuff. Naphta here in the US is commonly found as paint thinner. I've found that lamp oil (light triple-filtered kerosene) works a bit better and doesn't bother plastics. Incidentally, kerosene == paraffin in the UK, but refers to the wax here. English is confusing at times. --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jan 26 11:25:08 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 09:25:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: survival of PowerPC was Re: Editor religious wars was Re: Museums In-Reply-To: <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> from geoffrey oltmans at "Jan 26, 10 08:17:46 am" Message-ID: <201001261725.o0QHP8YS010592@floodgap.com> > PowerPC didn't really lose though, did it? I mean, it did in the desktop > sector, but it's still quite ubiquitous in embedded-land. This is true. I was more referring to the Mac wars. And, of course, the last remnant Amigas are PPC (fwiw) and POWER chips own the game console market. But I'm still sore about Apple ditching it (and buying and then killing PA Semi just to twist the knife and beef up their ARM offerings -- otherwise we might all be using PWRficient PowerBook G5s). > (goes back to using his PPC debugger) Coincidentally, so am I :) (but mine is in CodeWarrior 7 on Mac OS 9). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- When in doubt, take a pawn. -- Mission: Impossible ("Crack-Up") ------------ From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jan 26 11:32:57 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 09:32:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: from Ethan Dicks at "Jan 26, 10 10:24:57 am" Message-ID: <201001261732.o0QHWvdD010818@floodgap.com> > It's not just software - I have some "Rev 0" COMBOARDs where the > endiness of the onboard 68000 didn't logically match up with the > endiness of the Unibus - there were hardware and software hacks for > the prototype boards to get them working enough for the developers to > have a platform. Rev 1 boards had the high and low bytes swapped so > that writing a 16-bit quantity on one processor would result in the > same 16-bit quantity read by the other processor. Alpha Micro had this problem when they went from WD-16 to 68K, and ended up doing the same thing (swapping lines) to keep the endianness the same for client data. Obviously, when they went x86 they simply did software emulation, which is much less prosaic. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes? -- Groucho Marx --------- From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jan 26 11:40:19 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 09:40:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: from Ethan Dicks at "Jan 26, 10 09:47:37 am" Message-ID: <201001261740.o0QHeJ8h015078@floodgap.com> > > Intel 8080 vs. 6502 vs. Z80 > > > > WGF (World Geek Federation) Three Way Mashup.. > > I remember 6502 vs Z80 back in the day, and in the S-100 world, there > was plenty of 8080 vs Z80, but IIRC, there wasn't a lot of user > overlap between those that might run an 8080 vs the 6502. There is always the annual C64 versus Spectrum wars on Usenet, a/k/a the Commode versus Speculum wars, and the general discussion level is about that intellectual. OTOH, every so often there is true grist for the mill over processor types. The Speccies point out correctly that the Z80 in theirs was clocked higher, and had more registers and instructions, but the Commies respond with the criticism that the Z80 takes more clock cycles for typical tasks. The consensus opinion is that the Speccy has more meat in its CPU, but is hobbled by poor video and a merely adequate sound chip (the AY is fine, but no SID), while the C64, while having a lower speed clock and requiring zero page for register dependent operations, has a much better graphics "co-processor" which hardware-assists things like sprites, and a much better sound chip. Naturally we all know what the market chose. I think the best example of the Z80 not at full potential was the C128. I know Bil wanted to do more with it later on, but a lot of neat stuff could have been realized with some relatively modest improvements. I still like the C128 best anyway. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- MOVIE IDEA: The Never-Ending E-mail Signature ------------------------------ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 11:41:12 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:41:12 -0500 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <7291CC5AD6A74BB4AD89E0195447B6F9@EDIConsultingLtd.local> References: <201001251602.o0PG2vX9018022@floodgap.com> <4B5DC4E1.2040109@verizon.net> <6dbe3c381001250832q3e5972efi5650d1427d3bcba8@mail.gmail.com> <4B5DC8EB.20903@verizon.net> <4B5E171E.4060608@jetnet.ab.ca> <7291CC5AD6A74BB4AD89E0195447B6F9@EDIConsultingLtd.local> Message-ID: > With regard to Museums there's something they could do to help the collector > community. There's a tendency for them to accept any and every thing and > just put it into storage. I am confused - I think you have things reversed. Museums tend to be the picky ones, and taking in new artifacts results in a fair amount of red tape in committee, with a good number of the offered artifacts getting rejected. The people that accept any and everything are typically private collectors that are still new to the game and have not figured out that rampant unbounded collecting is a recipe for disaster. -- Will From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 11:54:18 2010 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 17:54:18 +0000 Subject: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I did a consultancy report comparing 6502, Z80 and 6802, the project was for a Torque, Speed and Power measuring system that had a PWM input from the transducer to an analogue out 200 times a second, I dont have the paper doc any more but the 2 meg 6502 beat the Z80 and 6802, everyone at the time would mention the clock rate of the Z80 claiming it was faster, they never notice the clock is divided, basic instruction rate was about 1 meg on the Z80. 6502 the original risc Dave Caroline From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 26 11:55:30 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 09:55:30 -0800 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <7291CC5AD6A74BB4AD89E0195447B6F9@EDIConsultingLtd.local> References: <201001251602.o0PG2vX9018022@floodgap.com> <4B5DC4E1.2040109@verizon.net> <6dbe3c381001250832q3e5972efi5650d1427d3bcba8@mail.gmail.com><4B5DC8EB.20903@verizon.net> <4B5E171E.4060608@jetnet.ab.ca> <7291CC5AD6A74BB4AD89E0195447B6F9@EDIConsultingLtd.local> Message-ID: <4B5F2C92.10301@bitsavers.org> On 1/26/10 12:10 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > With regard to Museums there's something they could do to help the collector > community. There's a tendency for them to accept any and every thing and > just put it into storage. As one of the curators at the Computer History Museum, one of the people responsible for making decisions on what to accept into the collection, I respectfully disagree. Actually, very little of what is offered is accepted. > They only pick items to restore and display with > the widest appeal. Many exhibits are static insofar as they don't run. > > Collectors in the main have very little storage but do attempt to get what > they have running. > Is it not better for the museums to loan out systems to > collectors who will get them going again and either return or keep them in > working order. > Ask a curator at the Smithsonian or the British Science Museum if you can take one of their artifacts home to play with, and see how far you get. What you will find out is there is a big difference between a computer club with a public collection, and institutions following AAM guidelines. > Most computer museums do want volunteers but that involves traveling to the > museum site to work. Worse still they tend to put technically competent > people to work cleaning floors and painting buildings. > As opposed to 'playing' with the artifacts? Volunteers at CHM working with the collection must attend artifact training. The first thing that they learn is even though the gear they see here is stuff that they've used in the past, once it is accepted into the permanent collection it has to be treated in ways to make sure it survives as long as possible (hopefully hundreds of years). This includes not touching it with bare hands, etc. There is absolutely no way that established museum practices would allow what you are suggesting to occur. I would suggest people look at the guidelines posted on the American Association of Museums site with regards to protocols for artifact handling. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 26 11:59:09 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:59:09 -0500 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <430737.94925.qm@web113501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <430737.94925.qm@web113501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jan 26, 2010, at 9:25 AM, Christian Liendo wrote: > If this was a religious war per say in the realm of: > > Apple II vs Commodore > Atari vs Amiga > CP/M vs DOS > > I would be somewhat amused. If it were a "religious war" AT ALL, I would be amused. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 26 12:07:59 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:07:59 -0500 Subject: block-mode terminals, was Re: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: References: <20100126072957.GA31588@Update.UU.SE> <430737.94925.qm@web113501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <5f7d1b0e1001260635y2e86653clcb74fdc6ddd6f160@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jan 26, 2010, at 10:10 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> That's just a subset of DEC vs IBM, an old but vigorous one. You >> couldn't stick a VT100 on a mainframe (terminal emulator packages >> aside) and you couldn't stick a 3270 on a VAX, > > I think you could (either way), with the appropriate 3rd party stuff. > DEC was not completely unaware of block mode terminals (VT62? And I > think a VT-100oid?). That was the VT-131, I think? That always confused me...It's a block-mode device but it still speaks ASCII over async serial? Was there an ASCII and async serial version of a 3174-ish terminal controller, or something like that? -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 26 12:11:47 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:11:47 -0500 Subject: byte ordering, was Re: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <20100126151508.GA12268@Update.UU.SE> References: <20100126072957.GA31588@Update.UU.SE> <430737.94925.qm@web113501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <5f7d1b0e1001260635y2e86653clcb74fdc6ddd6f160@mail.gmail.com> <20100126151508.GA12268@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <13D6CFDB-FABC-4BC0-8189-666AF4E5EDF9@neurotica.com> On Jan 26, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> QBus vs Unibus >> VT100 vs 3270 >> OS/370 vs VAX/VMS >> SPARC vs MIPS (vs Alpha) >> >> :) > > Was there ever a big endian vx little endian war? There was an internal one at a company I worked for many years ago. The root of the argument was network byte order (big endian) and the need for byte-swapping multibyte values. This was for a device (actually a Sun SPARCstation-5) that moved, demultiplexed, and translated data from a satellite downlink, a full transponder, at 45Mbps in real-time. Adding byte-swapping code right in the latency- sensitive part of the code was something we were trying hard to avoid. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 26 12:10:08 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 10:10:08 -0800 Subject: Great old IBM Pic's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B5EBF80.20530.3E3460@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Jan 2010 at 8:13, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Someone at work forwarded this link to me, knowing I like old > computers. Definitely a nice set of photo's. > > http://www.luckham.org/LHL.Bell%20Labs%20Days.html "All the programmers were mathamatitions by training." Sigh. Obviously not English majors. My experience was that programmers came from far more diverse backgrounds--when I got my first job, my boss's computer training consisted of having worked on SAGE. The guy in the office next to mine was a Music Ed graduate from IU. If anything, the common thread that ran through the systems group was that most people could play a musical instrument--the guy across the hall from me took 6 months off every other year to play his trombone in the casinos in Las Vegas--I still have one of his group's LPs. Must be a corporate-culture thing. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 26 12:14:15 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:14:15 -0500 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: References: <20100126072957.GA31588@Update.UU.SE> <430737.94925.qm@web113501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <5f7d1b0e1001260635y2e86653clcb74fdc6ddd6f160@mail.gmail.com> <20100126151508.GA12268@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Jan 26, 2010, at 10:24 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Nothing new there - there are old network protocol problems as well > (talk vs ntalk). It's easy to write code or build hardware for your > preferred byte order. Something that's architecture agnostic takes > more work. ntohl()/htonl() and ntohs()/htons() are SO easy to use, but for years, almost nobody used them. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 12:12:57 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:12:57 -0500 Subject: block-mode terminals, was Re: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: References: <20100126072957.GA31588@Update.UU.SE> <430737.94925.qm@web113501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <5f7d1b0e1001260635y2e86653clcb74fdc6ddd6f160@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/26/10, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 26, 2010, at 10:10 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> DEC was not completely unaware of block mode terminals (VT62? And I >> think a VT-100oid?). > > That was the VT-131, I think? Yep. > That always confused me...It's a > block-mode device but it still speaks ASCII over async serial? Yep. > Was > there an ASCII and async serial version of a 3174-ish terminal > controller, or something like that? Nope. The VT-131 depended on application code that processed block-level screen updates. The only application I know of that worked with DEC block-mode terminals was some sort of typesetting program. It's possible there was more than one, but if so, it was obscure then and forgotten now. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 26 12:18:46 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:18:46 -0500 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CB46956-1778-4478-A932-3899AA67D392@neurotica.com> On Jan 26, 2010, at 11:17 AM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > PowerPC didn't really lose though, did it? I mean, it did in the > desktop sector, but it's still quite ubiquitous in embedded-land. Yeah, but lots of people mistakenly believe that desktop PCs contain a significant percentage of the world's microprocessors. And if I'm not mistaken, the world's most common processor architecture, and the one rolling out of chip fabs in the largest quantities per day, is 8051. This was definitely the case three or four years ago...and while I haven't seen current statistics, it's not likely to have changed since then. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 26 12:23:18 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:23:18 -0500 Subject: block-mode terminals, was Re: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: References: <20100126072957.GA31588@Update.UU.SE> <430737.94925.qm@web113501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <5f7d1b0e1001260635y2e86653clcb74fdc6ddd6f160@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9A85BEDB-86D2-4EB8-A474-872876DA413C@neurotica.com> On Jan 26, 2010, at 1:12 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Was >> there an ASCII and async serial version of a 3174-ish terminal >> controller, or something like that? > > Nope. The VT-131 depended on application code that processed > block-level screen updates. > > The only application I know of that worked with DEC block-mode > terminals was some sort of typesetting program. It's possible there > was more than one, but if so, it was obscure then and forgotten now. So they weren't actually used to talk to IBM hosts? -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From evan at snarc.net Tue Jan 26 12:26:31 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:26:31 -0500 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5F2C92.10301@bitsavers.org> References: <201001251602.o0PG2vX9018022@floodgap.com> <4B5DC4E1.2040109@verizon.net> <6dbe3c381001250832q3e5972efi5650d1427d3bcba8@mail.gmail.com><4B5DC8EB.20903@verizon.net> <4B5E171E.4060608@jetnet.ab.ca> <7291CC5AD6A74BB4AD89E0195447B6F9@EDIConsultingLtd.local> <4B5F2C92.10301@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4B5F33D7.4040006@snarc.net> > Ask a curator at the Smithsonian or the British Science Museum if you > can take one of their artifacts home to play with, and see how far you > get. What you will find out is there is a big difference between a > computer club with a public > collection, and institutions following AAM guidelines. I agree. Last time I checked, there are around 15 "real" computer museums in America -- basically it's the CHM, and everyone else. I can't speak for the others, but we in MARCH are, as Al said, a club with a public collection. The only time we wear gloves is when cleaning artifacts covered in you-don't-want-to-know-what (our PDP-8 came from a barn, so....) Luckily, there is room for both kinds of museum. Our hobby is incredibly fortunate to have a professional organization like the CHM. I visit there every couple of years (usually when VCF West happens) and it's a highlight of my year. Where else can you see parts of machines from Babbage or the Moore School, and then play SpaceWar on a restored PDP-1? (Answer: No place else.) But if you're just a family man who wants to show your kid BASIC a Commodore 64, then club-run museums are the way to go. Conversely, at CHM's Visible Storage, you can't * use * anything. I always tell our visitors that if they're seeking a professional, Smithsonian-like museum experience, then it's totally worthwhile to go visit CHM in California. Personally I love it out there. If they ask about documentation then I even tell them about Al and Bitsavers. Presumably, if Al, Dag Spicer, and the others at CHM encounter visitors who want to do more hands-on, then I assume they inform the visitors about options such as Digibarn, VCF, etc. So it works both ways. Different scales/scopes of museums cater to different audiences. What works for us in MARCH is, as hackers say, "the hands-on imperative." Of course that changes somewhat with our larger / rarer / older artifacts. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 26 12:31:33 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:31:33 -0500 Subject: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <24F11137-3866-4149-8172-D987381B120E@neurotica.com> On Jan 26, 2010, at 12:54 PM, Dave Caroline wrote: > I did a consultancy report comparing 6502, Z80 and 6802, the project > was for a Torque, Speed and Power measuring system that had a PWM > input from the transducer to an analogue out 200 times a second, I > dont have the paper doc any more but the 2 meg 6502 beat the Z80 and > 6802, everyone at the time would mention the clock rate of the Z80 > claiming it was faster, they never notice the clock is divided, basic > instruction rate was about 1 meg on the Z80. This same problem happens all the time today...people assuming that "more gigahertz" means "faster processor", even when it doesn't. It's funny. I was a dyed-in-the-wool Z80 guy in my early years (I still hack around with them today, http://www.neurotica.com/wiki/Z80_SBC_1) and mostly ignored the 6502 due to the lack of registers. I could never deny, though, that some hard-core 6502 guys could really work magic with that architecture. Oh the creativity that existed in those days. It only really seems to survive today in the embedded systems world. > 6502 the original risc In my first participation in an actual religious war...Years ago, I used to refer to 6502s as "RRSC"...Reduced Register Set Computing. =) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 12:32:03 2010 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:32:03 -0500 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <8CB46956-1778-4478-A932-3899AA67D392@neurotica.com> References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CB46956-1778-4478-A932-3899AA67D392@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e1001261032j47a9fe7ak6b78b93b752f8b3c@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 1:18 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > And if I'm not mistaken, the world's most common processor architecture, > and the one rolling out of chip fabs in the largest quantities per day, is > 8051. > I would guess it's ARM-core based stuff these days. I read somewhere that a billion ARMs end up in cell phones alone, every year. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 26 12:36:38 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:36:38 -0500 Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <201001261740.o0QHeJ8h015078@floodgap.com> References: <201001261740.o0QHeJ8h015078@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <7A01384E-2694-49DC-8F88-50D01C5BF67F@neurotica.com> On Jan 26, 2010, at 12:40 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > The consensus opinion is that the Speccy has more meat in its CPU, but > is hobbled by poor video and a merely adequate sound chip (the AY > is fine, > but no SID), while the C64, while having a lower speed clock and > requiring > zero page for register dependent operations, has a much better > graphics > "co-processor" which hardware-assists things like sprites, and a much > better sound chip. Naturally we all know what the market chose. When I was a kid, I had an Atari 800, and my best friend Rob had a Commodore 64. We'd fight back and forth all the time, but we both loved showing off our systems to each other. He was always in awe of the Atari's graphics, and I was always in awe of his C64's audio. I often wondered what it'd be like to build a small computing with Atari graphics hardware and Commodore audio hardware. That'd be neat, eh? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jan 26 12:38:51 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:38:51 -0500 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: References: <20100126072957.GA31588@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <201001261338.51955.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 26 January 2010, William Donzelli wrote: > > That's just a subset of DEC vs IBM, an old but vigorous one. You > > couldn't stick a VT100 on a mainframe (terminal emulator packages > > aside) and you couldn't stick a 3270 on a VAX, > > I think you could (either way), with the appropriate 3rd party stuff. > DEC was not completely unaware of block mode terminals (VT62? And I > think a VT-100oid?). Howsabout a 3174 with HG23 ports on it (I think that's the right designation), and 3270-type terminals (or VT-100s on the HG23 ports) connected to that? Or, is that cheating? Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 26 12:41:45 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:41:45 -0500 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <5f7d1b0e1001261032j47a9fe7ak6b78b93b752f8b3c@mail.gmail.com> References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CB46956-1778-4478-A932-3899AA67D392@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e1001261032j47a9fe7ak6b78b93b752f8b3c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <66AD9588-0F02-4A9E-AA57-1C72D75D604B@neurotica.com> On Jan 26, 2010, at 1:32 PM, Jason McBrien wrote: >> And if I'm not mistaken, the world's most common processor >> architecture, >> and the one rolling out of chip fabs in the largest quantities per >> day, is >> 8051. > > I would guess it's ARM-core based stuff these days. I read > somewhere that a > billion ARMs end up in cell phones alone, every year. I'm sure ARM is huge, but I'll bet there are still more 8051s. They were shipping in FAR FAR greater volumes than anything else a couple of years ago, and had been for well over a decade running. I doubt it could change that quickly just because of high-end cell phones. Keep in mind, every USB host controller is an 8051 (doesn't your desktop machine have at least two?), many USB hubs, most window air conditioners, many remote controls...Zilog's Z8 (not Z80) is the king of the remote control market, but there are many 8051s in there too. They are *everywhere*. I was flabbergasted when I learned just how ubiquitous they area. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 12:44:20 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:44:20 -0500 Subject: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <24F11137-3866-4149-8172-D987381B120E@neurotica.com> References: <24F11137-3866-4149-8172-D987381B120E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 1/26/10, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 26, 2010, at 12:54 PM, Dave Caroline wrote: >> ...everyone at the time would mention the clock rate of the Z80 >> claiming it was faster, they never notice the clock is divided, basic >> instruction rate was about 1 meg on the Z80. Yep. I remember those arguments - fanboys would get excited because their number was larger than your number, but ignore how much work got done per clock tick. One of the "worst" for that (the ratio of work-per-ticks, not fanboys) was the 1802. If you executed a 3-cycle instruction (not uncommon), it was 24 clock ticks. 1.7MHz was a typical number (half of NTSC colorburst), so you were doing well to get to 0.1 MIPS. By comparison, a 1MHz 6502 is a few times faster. > This same problem happens all the time today...people assuming > that "more gigahertz" means "faster processor", even when it > doesn't. It's funny. It's a number - easy to memorize and throw around, especially when you don't bother to understand what's really going on in one tick. > I was a dyed-in-the-wool Z80 guy in my early years... and > mostly ignored the 6502 due to the lack of registers. I started with the 6502 and the 1802 - very different register models. I do have to admit that more than once, I was frustrated by the 6502 only having three 8-bit registers and a non-orthogonal instruction set (no TYX or TXY or PHX or PHY for example). The 65C02 made up for a lot, but it came along late enough that it didn't help much. ISTR that a 4MHz Z80 could match or outperform average code on a 1MHz 6502, but clever 6502 code could really rip. -ethan From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Jan 26 12:45:24 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:45:24 -0500 Subject: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: I keep thinking it was the 6520 or 6522 processor in the 1541 which had the cool dual-clock ability. 1/2 a clock running as one mode, the other 1/2 as another mode, technically running two instructions at once. so to speak. I don't think we've seen this type of tech since then. Dan. > Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 17:54:18 +0000 > Subject: Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) > From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > I did a consultancy report comparing 6502, Z80 and 6802, the project > was for a Torque, Speed and Power measuring system that had a PWM > input from the transducer to an analogue out 200 times a second, I > dont have the paper doc any more but the 2 meg 6502 beat the Z80 and > 6802, everyone at the time would mention the clock rate of the Z80 > claiming it was faster, they never notice the clock is divided, basic > instruction rate was about 1 meg on the Z80. > > 6502 the original risc > > Dave Caroline _________________________________________________________________ From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 26 12:48:01 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:48:01 -0500 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <201001261338.51955.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <20100126072957.GA31588@Update.UU.SE> <201001261338.51955.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <7C2BCDD4-BF52-4B8A-AA8A-52AC9D289D59@neurotica.com> On Jan 26, 2010, at 1:38 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >>> That's just a subset of DEC vs IBM, an old but vigorous one. You >>> couldn't stick a VT100 on a mainframe (terminal emulator packages >>> aside) and you couldn't stick a 3270 on a VAX, >> >> I think you could (either way), with the appropriate 3rd party stuff. >> DEC was not completely unaware of block mode terminals (VT62? And I >> think a VT-100oid?). > > Howsabout a 3174 with HG23 ports on it (I think that's the right > designation), and 3270-type terminals (or VT-100s on the HG23 ports) > connected to that? > > Or, is that cheating? Could you put a straight VT-100 (i.e., not a VT-131) on one of those ports and have the 3174 do all the screen management to simulate a block-mode terminal? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 12:46:57 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:46:57 -0500 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <201001261338.51955.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <20100126072957.GA31588@Update.UU.SE> <201001261338.51955.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On 1/26/10, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Howsabout a 3174 with HG23 ports on it (I think that's the right > designation), and 3270-type terminals (or VT-100s on the HG23 ports) > connected to that? > > Or, is that cheating? I don't think it's cheating, but didn't the HG23 ports come out rather late in the game compared to the peak of the IBM-vs-DEC wars? (or compared to when many users shifted away from dumb terminals and towards PCs on their desks?) -ethan From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jan 26 12:49:50 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 10:49:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <66AD9588-0F02-4A9E-AA57-1C72D75D604B@neurotica.com> References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CB46956-1778-4478-A932-3899AA67D392@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e1001261032j47a9fe7ak6b78b93b752f8b3c@mail.gmail.com> <66AD9588-0F02-4A9E-AA57-1C72D75D604B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > market, but there are many 8051s in there too. > > They are *everywhere*. I was flabbergasted when I learned just how > ubiquitous they area. > Why is it so popular? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 26 12:50:37 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 10:50:37 -0800 Subject: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <24F11137-3866-4149-8172-D987381B120E@neurotica.com> References: , , <24F11137-3866-4149-8172-D987381B120E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B5EC8FD.19583.63419B@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Jan 2010 at 13:31, Dave McGuire wrote: > I was a dyed-in-the-wool Z80 guy in my early years (I still hack > around with them today, http://www.neurotica.com/wiki/Z80_SBC_1) and > mostly ignored the 6502 due to the lack of registers. I could never > deny, though, that some hard-core 6502 guys could really work magic > with that architecture. Oh the creativity that existed in those > days. It only really seems to survive today in the embedded systems > world. I remember the "Sweet 16" 16-bit arithmetic package. I was surprised with what some hard-bitten folks could do with the RCA 1802 or even the Signetics 8X300 bipolar microcontroller (?). But then, even the 8080 felt brain-dead when compared to mainframes. And the AVRs and PICs feel the same way when compared to the Z80. After awhile, you can get used to anything. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 12:54:06 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:54:06 -0500 Subject: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/26/10, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > I keep thinking it was the 6520 or 6522 processor in the 1541 > which had the cool dual-clock ability. > 1/2 a clock running as one mode, the other 1/2 as another mode, > technically running two instructions at once. so to speak. The 6520 and 6522 are the PIA and VIA, respectively - parallel I/O and timers, not processors. There were tricks one could perform with the 6502 since it had alternating fetch and execute cycles, so by doing something else with the bus during the right portion of the clock phase, you could design a board to "do twice as much" at 1Mhz, but I don't think the 1541 did that. It did have a pair of "processes" in its firmware - one to talk to the host and parse DOS commands, and one to perform low-level "tasks" (move the heads, read/write buffers, etc). -ethan From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Jan 26 12:58:26 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 18:58:26 -0000 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4D409CDC03714DC4B18E76228FD9B3DB@ANTONIOPC> cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: >> That's just a subset of DEC vs IBM, an old but vigorous one. ?You >> couldn't stick a VT100 on a mainframe (terminal emulator packages >> aside) and you couldn't stick a 3270 on a VAX, > > I think you could (either way), with the appropriate 3rd > party stuff. DEC was not completely unaware of block mode > terminals (VT62? And I think a VT-100oid?). VT132? Antonio From ray at arachelian.com Tue Jan 26 12:59:59 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:59:59 -0500 Subject: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4B5F3BAF.50201@arachelian.com> Dan Gahlinger wrote: > I keep thinking it was the 6520 or 6522 processor in the 1541 > which had the cool dual-clock ability. > 1/2 a clock running as one mode, the other 1/2 as another mode, > technically running two instructions at once. so to speak. > Not sure about the 6520, but the 6522 certainly did - that was the VIA, had two timers and different modes for both, but T2 was less powerful from what I recall. I think the C64 had an update to this chip called the CIA 6526 instead off the VIA. (Complex instead of Versatile?). Pet's and the Vic 20's had 6522's. The clocks could also be used to count pulses, or be used to reload/repeat - that's how you got sound on the Pet's - you'd program one of the timers to loop, and it was attached to a piezo. The rate you set the timer to was the frequency of the sound. From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Tue Jan 26 13:00:42 2010 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 20:00:42 +0100 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <66AD9588-0F02-4A9E-AA57-1C72D75D604B@neurotica.com> References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CB46956-1778-4478-A932-3899AA67D392@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e1001261032j47a9fe7ak6b78b93b752f8b3c@mail.gmail.com> <66AD9588-0F02-4A9E-AA57-1C72D75D604B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B5F3BDA.1030006@bluewin.ch> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 26, 2010, at 1:32 PM, Jason McBrien wrote: >> >> I would guess it's ARM-core based stuff these days. I read somewhere >> that a >> billion ARMs end up in cell phones alone, every year. > > > I'm sure ARM is huge, but I'll bet there are still more 8051s. They > were shipping in FAR FAR greater volumes than anything else a couple > of years ago, and had been for well over a decade running. I doubt it > could change that quickly just because of high-end cell phones. ARM's are in almost every cellphone, not just the highend. They are used as the processor core in most baseband chips, together with a DSP. Also my ADSL modem has one, mr router, my Internet radio etc etc Even my Archimeds A440 has one ! Jos Dreesen From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 26 12:24:23 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 18:24:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Recurring subject: Goo removal In-Reply-To: <4B5E0A93.1000106@tx.rr.com> from "CSquared" at Jan 25, 10 03:18:11 pm Message-ID: > > Goo removal: Try with acetone or benzine. (petroleum aether? Don't know > > the english word.) Be carefull with acetone. It will dissolve many > > plastics. > I believe benzene is a known carcinogen. I used to use something called At least in England, Benzene |= Benzine. Benzene is C6H6, the simplest aromatic compound. Benzine is a mixture of hyrdrocarbons, I think obtained for the distillation of crude oil. > "Painter's Friend" to slightly soften the existing oil based enamel > before applying a new coat on interior trim. It contained benzene, and > I don't believe it is still available as a result. I was sorry to see > it go in a way as it worked really well. Of course I'd rather not get > cancer either... I suspect in a lot of cases the carcinogenic risk is massively overstated. It's probably a problem if you work with the stuff all day every day, in large quantities. It's probably much less of a problem (if a problem at all), if you use a little from time to time. I've been told by somebody who darn well ought to know, for example, that PCBs (polychorinated biphneyls, not circuit boards) probably are harmful if you work every day on large power transformers. But the amount contained in one high voltage capacitor is not going to kill you unless you are really stupid with it. Anyway, smoking is almost certainly more harmful than any of these substances i nthe quanties they are likely to be used here, and I don't smoke so I'll take the risk in other ways... -tony (it's a well known fact that research causes cancer in rats) From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Jan 26 13:02:51 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 14:02:51 -0500 Subject: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: References: , , , Message-ID: It was definitely in the 1541, I remember it distinctly, all sorts of interesting tricks came out of it. all part of "inside commodore dos" book, still have the original. but still, that sort of trick isn't seen today. even the manufacturers of cpus have bought into the "faster mhz is better" trick, rather than multiprocessing. thus the death of the c64, the amiga, and ppc-mac... sigh. (one could add the vax to this list and ppc sun as well I suppose) thus explains why my amiga-1200 always felt "faster" than my pentium4. you had custom chipsets for dedicated tasks, a multiprocessing cpu whereas on the pc, it was one doing everything. uh oh i feel another religious war coming on... Dan. > Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:54:06 -0500 > Subject: Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) > From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > On 1/26/10, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > I keep thinking it was the 6520 or 6522 processor in the 1541 > > which had the cool dual-clock ability. > > 1/2 a clock running as one mode, the other 1/2 as another mode, > > technically running two instructions at once. so to speak. > > The 6520 and 6522 are the PIA and VIA, respectively - parallel I/O and > timers, not processors. > > There were tricks one could perform with the 6502 since it had > alternating fetch and execute cycles, so by doing something else with > the bus during the right portion of the clock phase, you could design > a board to "do twice as much" at 1Mhz, but I don't think the 1541 did > that. > > It did have a pair of "processes" in its firmware - one to talk to the > host and parse DOS commands, and one to perform low-level "tasks" > (move the heads, read/write buffers, etc). > > -ethan _________________________________________________________________ Reinvent how you stay in touch with the new Windows Live Messenger. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9706116 From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 26 13:05:04 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 14:05:04 -0500 Subject: 8051, was Re: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CB46956-1778-4478-A932-3899AA67D392@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e1001261032j47a9fe7ak6b78b93b752f8b3c@mail.gmail.com> <66AD9588-0F02-4A9E-AA57-1C72D75D604B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Jan 26, 2010, at 1:49 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> market, but there are many 8051s in there too. >> >> They are *everywhere*. I was flabbergasted when I learned just >> how ubiquitous they area. > > Why is it so popular? It has been second-sourced by just about every chip manufacturer in existence...literally a few dozen companies make 8051 variants nowadays. It wasn't that huge twenty years ago, but it was still very widely second-sourced...I suspect that had a lot to to with its widespread adoption. Add to that the fact that there just weren't all that many low-cost architectures in that space in the early days (the original 8051 came out in 1980), and the fact that it's very, VERY good for control applications (look at the boolean instructions for an idea as to why), then look at all the third-party development tool support (very good 100% free stuff too), and you have a recipe for success. The barrier to entry for 8051 development is almost nonexistent. Then, engineers typically use what they know, and it spreads like crazy from there. I've done tons of work with 8051s over the years, and I love them, but I have to admit I've always felt hamstrung by the memory addressing scheme. It's fine once you get used to it, but that's one part of the architecture that I really dislike. When I first got into ARM, I used 8051 for "small" applications and ARM for "big" applications, but when low-end ARM chips like the Philips LPC2103 hit the streets, I started using them for some of the lower-end stuff too, but I still use lots of 8051s for very small applications. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 26 12:36:00 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 18:36:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [personal] Shaft encoder in HP2631B printer In-Reply-To: <6F0C47604C3D44AA85A1AC98052D484D@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Jan 25, 10 10:42:12 pm Message-ID: > > The HP 9000/200 series knob encoder uses a small bulb, witch I replaced for > a white LED (3mm type). > I had to remodel the LED a bit to make it fit. HP must have used several different encoders, then. I have 4 HP9000/200 machines with the twiddleknob -- an HP9826, an HP9836A, an HP9836CU and an HP9816. I also have an HP9817, but I use a standard HP46020 keyboard with that, so no know :-( Anyway, all 4 machines use the same encoder, and the light source is a pair of IR LEDs with the LED chips driectly mounted ona timy PCB on the end cover. They're wired in series to 2 little wire sockets on the board. There are 2 wire pins sticking up from the housing thac connect to these -- one is a noraml wire to ground, the other is actually a 100 Ohm (or so) resistor with one ende osldered to the +5V line, the other end goes into the +ve pin socket on the LED board. If I had to replace the light source in an encoder and I couldn't get a suitable bulb, I'd try an IR LED first. The sensors are almost vertainly sensitive to IR. Filaments bulbs give off a lot of IR (particularly if underrun). of course some is absorbed by the glass envelope [1] but enough gets out to operate the sensors. [1] I once worked on an IR spectrometer which used a Nernst glower as the light source. THis is a rod or coil of rare earth oxides, and you'd think it eas a good electircal insualtor. At room temperature it is, but get it hot, and it'll conduct (the reisstance drops with increasing temperature, in fact it can thermally 'run away'). Anyway, the nernst glower was connected in series wiht a ballast lamp across the mains. To get it started you used a bit of cototn wool soaked in ethanol and ignited to heat the glower, once it got hot, it would glow quite brightly. Of course the advantage is that the nernst glower runs in air (it can't exaclty oxidise, so you don't have a glass bulb to absorb any IR emission. The nernst lamp was actually proposed for electric lighting at one point (with an electical heater coil to start it), the advantage being that you don't have to have an evauated bulb, and you can just replace the glower when it fails, not the whole lamp. But they're less efficient than vacuum or gas-filled filament lamps for producing visible light (the golwer runs cooler than a tnngsten filament). -tony From ragooman at comcast.net Tue Jan 26 13:07:28 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 19:07:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <7A01384E-2694-49DC-8F88-50D01C5BF67F@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <2098608013.4903411264532848664.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> ----- Dave McGuire wrote: > I often wondered what it'd be like to build a small computing with > Atari graphics hardware and Commodore audio hardware. That'd be > neat, eh? That was the Amiga !! All hail for Jay Miner !! Too bad Atari lost out on this, I think they deserved to build this, but you know how shifty Tramiel was :) =Dan -- http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From brain at jbrain.com Tue Jan 26 13:14:01 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:14:01 -0600 Subject: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B5F3EF9.4090300@jbrain.com> On 1/26/2010 12:54 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 1/26/10, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > >> I keep thinking it was the 6520 or 6522 processor in the 1541 >> which had the cool dual-clock ability. >> 1/2 a clock running as one mode, the other 1/2 as another mode, >> technically running two instructions at once. so to speak. >> > The 6520 and 6522 are the PIA and VIA, respectively - parallel I/O and > timers, not processors. > > There were tricks one could perform with the 6502 since it had > alternating fetch and execute cycles, so by doing something else with > the bus during the right portion of the clock phase, you could design > a board to "do twice as much" at 1Mhz, but I don't think the 1541 did > that. > > It did have a pair of "processes" in its firmware - one to talk to the > host and parse DOS commands, and one to perform low-level "tasks" > (move the heads, read/write buffers, etc). > > -ethan > He's probably thinking of the earlier IEEE drives. Peddle designed them and tried to be very clever in the design. They contained a 6502 and 6504 that shared the bus by running one on a (effectively) reversed clock. THe 6502 got the bus for half a cycle, followed by the 6504, etc. The 1541 (and some of the later IEEE drives) proved you didn't need that level of sophistication to operate a floppy disk mechanism. It cost Peddle, too, Jack was furious at the cost and design lag of the IEEE drives. I'm not sure Chuck ever fully recovered. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 13:19:11 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 14:19:11 -0500 Subject: 8051, was Re: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CB46956-1778-4478-A932-3899AA67D392@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e1001261032j47a9fe7ak6b78b93b752f8b3c@mail.gmail.com> <66AD9588-0F02-4A9E-AA57-1C72D75D604B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 1/26/10, Dave McGuire wrote: > Then, engineers typically use what they know, and it spreads like > crazy from there. I've certainly seen a lot of that. I've only been working with the 8051 recently (since 2001) and on a small number of projects (Spare Time Gizmos "Life", among others). Even though most of what I do these days is with AVR processors, I happen to be about to send off an AT80S52 board design for fabrication this week, my first 8051 design (selected because the prototype was an everything-but-the-kitchen-sink 8051 board, picked by someone who has a long history with the 8051). > I've done tons of work with 8051s over the years, and I love them, > but I have to admit I've always felt hamstrung by the memory > addressing scheme. It's fine once you get used to it, but that's one > part of the architecture that I really dislike. I've only done a little 8051 assembler and do recognize that the memory model is a bit bizarre compared to most microprocessors, but the vast majority of my microcontroller code is low-performance and in C, which hides ugly details of the architecture. It does get fun, though, when you do have a critical task or have to delve into assembler for debugging. -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 26 13:21:45 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:21:45 -0800 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5F33D7.4040006@snarc.net> References: <201001251602.o0PG2vX9018022@floodgap.com> <4B5DC4E1.2040109@verizon.net> <6dbe3c381001250832q3e5972efi5650d1427d3bcba8@mail.gmail.com><4B5DC8EB.20903@verizon.net> <4B5E171E.4060608@jetnet.ab.ca> <7291CC5AD6A74BB4AD89E0195447B6F9@EDIConsultingLtd.local> <4B5F2C92.10301@bitsavers.org> <4B5F33D7.4040006@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4B5F40C9.8010603@bitsavers.org> On 1/26/10 10:26 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Presumably, if Al, Dag Spicer, and the others at CHM encounter visitors > who want to do more hands-on, then I assume they inform the visitors > about options such as Digibarn, VCF, etc. > > So it works both ways. Different scales/scopes of museums cater to > different audiences. > > What works for us in MARCH is, as hackers say, "the hands-on imperative." > > Of course that changes somewhat with our larger / rarer / older artifacts. > I do try to explain the differences when people ask why we don't have more running hardware. It is a challenge and requires a team of dedicated volunteers to keep the PDP-1 in good shape to be shown as a scheduled exhibit, for example. What we hope CHM will be in the future is the place where techies and non-techies can experience our computing heritage. We'll be very busy this coming year building a world- class exhibit on the history of computing that will be the next phase in the institution's evolution, and I am continuing to develop CHM's software and documentation collections. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jan 26 13:24:57 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:24:57 -0800 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) References: <20100126072957.GA31588@Update.UU.SE> <430737.94925.qm@web113501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <5f7d1b0e1001260635y2e86653clcb74fdc6ddd6f160@mail.gmail.com> <20100126151508.GA12268@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4B5F4188.9577C850@cs.ubc.ca> Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 09:35:19AM -0500, Jason McBrien wrote: > > > > QBus vs Unibus > > VT100 vs 3270 > > OS/370 vs VAX/VMS > > SPARC vs MIPS (vs Alpha) > > > > :) > > Was there ever a big endian vx little endian war? I'm not sure when the war started (earlier one might expect) but there was a major battle back in the late-70's/early-80's when portable operating systems and networking were in vogue, and programmers had to account for both orders within the same code. Danny Cohen's paper "On Holy Wars And a Plea For Peace" (1980) was one result: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?OnHolyWarsAndaPleaForPeace http://www.rdrop.com/~cary/html/endian_faq.html or numerous other links (I prefer little-endian as it is mathematically consistent, while big-endian is the result of a disparate mixture of cultural artifacts.) From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jan 26 13:23:16 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 19:23:16 +0000 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <8CB46956-1778-4478-A932-3899AA67D392@neurotica.com> References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CB46956-1778-4478-A932-3899AA67D392@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B5F4124.70402@dunnington.plus.com> On 26/01/2010 18:18, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 26, 2010, at 11:17 AM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: >> PowerPC didn't really lose though, did it? I mean, it did in the >> desktop sector, but it's still quite ubiquitous in embedded-land. > > Yeah, but lots of people mistakenly believe that desktop PCs contain a > significant percentage of the world's microprocessors. > > And if I'm not mistaken, the world's most common processor > architecture, and the one rolling out of chip fabs in the largest > quantities per day, is 8051. This was definitely the case three or four > years ago...and while I haven't seen current statistics, it's not likely > to have changed since then. Nope, its ARM, or at least ARM cores, as far as data I can find supports. And MIPS is second. I don't have the figures here at home, but I researched it at work for a computer architecture class I helped with a couple of years ago. Have you got any figures for 8051, because it would be interesting to compare? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 26 13:25:12 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:25:12 -0800 Subject: Recurring subject: Goo removal In-Reply-To: References: <4B5E0A93.1000106@tx.rr.com> from "CSquared" at Jan 25, 10 03:18:11 pm, Message-ID: <4B5ED118.193.82EB13@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Jan 2010 at 18:24, Tony Duell wrote: > I suspect in a lot of cases the carcinogenic risk is massively > overstated. It's probably a problem if you work with the stuff all day > every day, in large quantities. It's probably much less of a problem > (if a problem at all), if you use a little from time to time. The cases that I've seen where benzene has had serious cancer consequences are where it's gotten into the groundwater or where it's been sloshed around without protection, such as in automotive tire- making operations (used to adhere tire plies). At one time it was widely used for dry cleaning, which resulted in a lot of contamination. I can still remember benzene sold in bottles as a spot remover, later replaced by carbon tet, also nasty. But then, ordinary gasoline contains several carcinogenic substances. That's why we have self-serve stations to spread the risk around. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 13:25:28 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 14:25:28 -0500 Subject: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <4B5F3EF9.4090300@jbrain.com> References: <4B5F3EF9.4090300@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On 1/26/10, Jim Brain wrote: > On 1/26/2010 12:54 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> There were tricks one could perform with the 6502 since it had >> alternating fetch and execute cycles, so by doing something else with >> the bus during the right portion of the clock phase, you could design >> a board to "do twice as much" at 1Mhz, but I don't think the 1541 did >> that. >> > He's probably thinking of the earlier IEEE drives. Peddle designed them > and tried to be very clever in the design. They contained a 6502 and > 6504 that shared the bus by running one on a (effectively) reversed > clock. THe 6502 got the bus for half a cycle, followed by the 6504, etc. Most likely. That is a slick design - saves on expensive dual-port memory. > The 1541 (and some of the later IEEE drives) proved you didn't need that > level of sophistication to operate a floppy disk mechanism. There was also only a single drive mechanism to fiddle with in the 1541. Design improvements aside, that may have helped shrink it down to a single processor. > It cost Peddle, too, Jack was furious at the cost and design lag of the > IEEE drives. I'm not sure Chuck ever fully recovered. One thing I do remember is the story that some "damn connector" was in short supply in the PET era and that part of the mandate from Jack was that the next drive "better not use that". I never heard for certain which exact connector it was - could have been the IEEE-488 cable connector or the PCB connector - either way, no cables or no boards means lost sales opportunities. -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 26 13:34:22 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:34:22 -0800 Subject: Recurring subject: Goo removal In-Reply-To: <4B5ED118.193.82EB13@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B5E0A93.1000106@tx.rr.com> from "CSquared" at Jan 25, 10 03:18:11 pm, <4B5ED118.193.82EB13@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B5F43BE.2070504@bitsavers.org> On 1/26/10 11:25 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > But then, ordinary gasoline contains several carcinogenic substances. > That's why we have self-serve stations to spread the risk around. > Did the laws change in Oregon? I thought self-serve was banned there? From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jan 26 13:36:18 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 19:36:18 +0000 Subject: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B5F4432.1010602@dunnington.plus.com> On 26/01/2010 17:54, Dave Caroline wrote: > I did a consultancy report comparing 6502, Z80 and 6802, the project > was for a Torque, Speed and Power measuring system that had a PWM > input from the transducer to an analogue out 200 times a second, I > dont have the paper doc any more but the 2 meg 6502 beat the Z80 and > 6802, everyone at the time would mention the clock rate of the Z80 > claiming it was faster, they never notice the clock is divided, basic > instruction rate was about 1 meg on the Z80. True, but on an original 6502, the clock rate is only 1MHz. The 2MHz version is a 6502A :-) In fact the 6502 was part of the inspiration for the ARM chip. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jan 26 13:32:46 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 19:32:46 +0000 Subject: Recurring subject: Goo removal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B5F435E.90300@dunnington.plus.com> On 26/01/2010 18:24, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Goo removal: Try with acetone or benzine. (petroleum aether? Don't know >>> the english word.) Be carefull with acetone. It will dissolve many >>> plastics. >> I believe benzene is a known carcinogen. I used to use something called > > At least in England, Benzene |= Benzine. Benzene is C6H6, the simplest > aromatic compound. Benzine is a mixture of hyrdrocarbons, I think > obtained for the distillation of crude oil. Benzine used to be a common name in parts of Europe for what we call petrol and a good number of listmembers would call gasoline. It's often used as another name for what I call petroleum ether (which is the lighter fractions of what you get if you distil petrol/gasoline -- pet ether is the stuff with a low boiling point, under 60C, and therefore not dissimilar to diethyl ether). Interestingly, perhaps, benzene used to be a constituent of petrol/gasoline, for its anti-knock properties. > -tony (it's a well known fact that research causes cancer in rats) LOL! yes! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Jan 26 13:53:11 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 14:53:11 -0500 Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <7A01384E-2694-49DC-8F88-50D01C5BF67F@neurotica.com> References: <201001261740.o0QHeJ8h015078@floodgap.com> <7A01384E-2694-49DC-8F88-50D01C5BF67F@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B5F4827.7040402@atarimuseum.com> Thats actually been messed around with over on Atariage.com where some guys were wiring a SID into an Atari XL/XE system... Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 26, 2010, at 12:40 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> The consensus opinion is that the Speccy has more meat in its CPU, but >> is hobbled by poor video and a merely adequate sound chip (the AY is >> fine, >> but no SID), while the C64, while having a lower speed clock and >> requiring >> zero page for register dependent operations, has a much better graphics >> "co-processor" which hardware-assists things like sprites, and a much >> better sound chip. Naturally we all know what the market chose. > > When I was a kid, I had an Atari 800, and my best friend Rob had a > Commodore 64. We'd fight back and forth all the time, but we both > loved showing off our systems to each other. He was always in awe of > the Atari's graphics, and I was always in awe of his C64's audio. > > I often wondered what it'd be like to build a small computing with > Atari graphics hardware and Commodore audio hardware. That'd be neat, > eh? > > -Dave > From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jan 26 13:55:19 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 14:55:19 -0500 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <7C2BCDD4-BF52-4B8A-AA8A-52AC9D289D59@neurotica.com> References: <20100126072957.GA31588@Update.UU.SE> <201001261338.51955.pat@computer-refuge.org> <7C2BCDD4-BF52-4B8A-AA8A-52AC9D289D59@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201001261455.19546.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 26 January 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 26, 2010, at 1:38 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >>> That's just a subset of DEC vs IBM, an old but vigorous one. You > >>> couldn't stick a VT100 on a mainframe (terminal emulator packages > >>> aside) and you couldn't stick a 3270 on a VAX, > >> > >> I think you could (either way), with the appropriate 3rd party > >> stuff. DEC was not completely unaware of block mode terminals > >> (VT62? And I think a VT-100oid?). > > > > Howsabout a 3174 with HG23 ports on it (I think that's the right > > designation), and 3270-type terminals (or VT-100s on the HG23 > > ports) connected to that? > > > > Or, is that cheating? > > Could you put a straight VT-100 (i.e., not a VT-131) on one of > those ports and have the 3174 do all the screen management to > simulate a block-mode terminal? That's my understanding of it, yes. I still need to get my 3174-11L set up on a machine to test this out... Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 26 14:01:35 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:01:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: References: <20100126072957.GA31588@Update.UU.SE>, <430737.94925.qm@web113501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <5f7d1b0e1001260635y2e86653clcb74fdc6ddd6f160@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100126115546.M88224@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 26 Jan 2010, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > OS9 - the one true OS to rule them all! :P I assume that you are talking about the Microware product for 6809 (including Coco), NOT the Apple Mac OS. But, what about Pro-Dos? Pick? (where's my copy of "The Pick Pocket guide"? Mumps? Micro-Dos (Micropolis, was available for TRS-80!) CP/M-68K? From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Jan 26 14:05:02 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 15:05:02 -0500 Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <2098608013.4903411264532848664.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> References: <2098608013.4903411264532848664.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4B5F4AEE.9040007@atarimuseum.com> Atari already had the Amiga, paid for and financed its development from March 3, 1984 through June 29, 1984 with $500,000 long before Tramiel was ever in the picture. I even have a photo of the Warner Comm. owned Atari check to Amiga that Dave Morse cashed. Atari was already well into development of project "Mickey" a high end game console that would use the Amiga chipset, I even have copies of the actual wirewrap board. In court, the judge asked Dave Morse to present the June 84 CES version of the Amiga, Dave Morse lied on the stand and said it was taken apart and used for other revisions... of course we all now know that is a complete lie, as Dale Luck brings that unit to the Vintage Computer Fest shows each year. I have most of the court documents right up to the sudden request to settle out of court. The settlement details are private and sealed. My suspicion is someone within Commodore, still loyal to Jack Tramiel, tipped him off about the CES unit still being in existence and that evidence was presented to the Amiga lawyers and then they immediately wanted to settle out of court. Essentially the June 84 CES proto would've proved that Amiga had made significant progress on the design from the Jan 84 CES model, that progress made the machine workable and of course sellable to Commodore... which meant all of that progress was due to Atari's investment into the machine from the $500,000 and therefor Atari now held a stake in the machine, despite the company paying back the money to Atari the day before the June 30th deadline whereby Atari, Inc (Not Tramiels Atari Corp) would then have access to all Amiga chip data and materials to use according to the terms outlined in the March 1984 contract agreement (which I also have) all of this occured just days before Atari was sold to Jack Tramiel. Jack knew nothing of the Amiga-Atari agreement, if it wasn't for his son finding the cashed check from Amiga in Atari's files, they may have never have known... ...this is all going to be revealed in full detail quite soon, its been over 500 pages of documents and has lead to a massive research project that myself and Marty Goldberg have been working on for over 6 months. Curt Dan Roganti wrote: > > ----- Dave McGuire wrote: > > >> I often wondered what it'd be like to build a small computing with >> Atari graphics hardware and Commodore audio hardware. That'd be >> neat, eh? >> > > That was the Amiga !! > > All hail for Jay Miner !! > > Too bad Atari lost out on this, I think they deserved to build this, but you know how shifty Tramiel was :) > > =Dan > -- > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 26 14:06:17 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:06:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <20100126151508.GA12268@Update.UU.SE> References: <20100126072957.GA31588@Update.UU.SE> <430737.94925.qm@web113501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <5f7d1b0e1001260635y2e86653clcb74fdc6ddd6f160@mail.gmail.com> <20100126151508.GA12268@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20100126120411.K88224@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 26 Jan 2010, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Was there ever a big endian vx little endian war? Has there ever NOT been a big endian V little endian war? It has always been fun to watch beginners try to cope with a 6845 in an 8088 machine! From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 14:10:11 2010 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 15:10:11 -0500 Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <4B5F4827.7040402@atarimuseum.com> References: <201001261740.o0QHeJ8h015078@floodgap.com> <7A01384E-2694-49DC-8F88-50D01C5BF67F@neurotica.com> <4B5F4827.7040402@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e1001261210t6e926380p226c25b5bf81bd00@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 2:53 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Thats actually been messed around with over on Atariage.com where some guys > were wiring a SID into an Atari XL/XE system... You could always get that cartridge that turns a C64 into a MIDI controlled synth, then drive it with an Atari MIDI board... From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 26 14:10:35 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:10:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: References: <20100126072957.GA31588@Update.UU.SE> <430737.94925.qm@web113501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <5f7d1b0e1001260635y2e86653clcb74fdc6ddd6f160@mail.gmail.com> <20100126151508.GA12268@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20100126121019.C88224@shell.lmi.net> EBCDIC V ASCII ! From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Jan 26 14:15:22 2010 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 15:15:22 -0500 Subject: Wanted: Altair 680 VTL image and 1702 burning... Message-ID: Hi, I would like to put VTL on my 680. I have a few 1702s but I need the image to put on them and someone to put them on for me. Can anybody help with either? Thanks, Bill From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 26 14:21:08 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 15:21:08 -0500 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <4B5F4124.70402@dunnington.plus.com> References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CB46956-1778-4478-A932-3899AA67D392@neurotica.com> <4B5F4124.70402@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <602E4CEF-B73F-44E0-B391-86829656CF77@neurotica.com> On Jan 26, 2010, at 2:23 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> And if I'm not mistaken, the world's most common processor >> architecture, and the one rolling out of chip fabs in the largest >> quantities per day, is 8051. This was definitely the case three >> or four years ago...and while I haven't seen current statistics, >> it's not likely to have changed since then. > > Nope, its ARM, or at least ARM cores, as far as data I can find > supports. And MIPS is second. I don't have the figures here at > home, but I researched it at work for a computer architecture class > I helped with a couple of years ago. I'd like to see the data if you can find it; I've not been able to find anything recent. > Have you got any figures for 8051, because it would be interesting > to compare? Not current figures, no. The first thing I laid hands on just now was a very old 8051 FAQ entry that states that 126 million 8051 processors were shipped in 1993, an average of 300,000 chips per day. With the number of applications and second-source suppliers increasing dramatically since that time, that already-impressive number has skyrocketed. An article about 8-bit microcontrollers in the February 2006 issue of CCI suggests that 8-bit chips (not just 8051s) are rolling out of fabs in quantities of about ten million chips per day (no typo there). Since a large percentage of those are 8051s due to the relatively unprotected status of the architecture, and thus the number of companies embedding it into high-integration ICs and such, that's quite a few chips. Now, I know ARM is big, huge even. And I'm very happy about that, because I love ARM. But I have a hard time believing that millions of ARM chips are leaving fabs every day. Not arguing, mind you, or even really disagreeing...but I'd love to see hard supporting numbers if you can find them. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Jan 26 14:20:24 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 15:20:24 -0500 Subject: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: References: , , , , <4B5F3EF9.4090300@jbrain.com>, Message-ID: It was the 1541, non-IEEE version, standard off the shelf. I remember twiddling with that functionality for a while. it was very cool for little tricks (ok, so it was useless, you got me). but it *was* fun. you could even use it for a form of copy protection. and there were other little tricks to be done with it. and then (not related) people started making their drives "sing" daisy... ugh. show me a modern drive that can produce music... Dan. > Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 14:25:28 -0500 > Subject: Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) > From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > On 1/26/10, Jim Brain wrote: > > On 1/26/2010 12:54 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> There were tricks one could perform with the 6502 since it had > >> alternating fetch and execute cycles, so by doing something else with > >> the bus during the right portion of the clock phase, you could design > >> a board to "do twice as much" at 1Mhz, but I don't think the 1541 did > >> that. > >> > > He's probably thinking of the earlier IEEE drives. Peddle designed them > > and tried to be very clever in the design. They contained a 6502 and > > 6504 that shared the bus by running one on a (effectively) reversed > > clock. THe 6502 got the bus for half a cycle, followed by the 6504, etc. > > Most likely. That is a slick design - saves on expensive dual-port memory. > > > The 1541 (and some of the later IEEE drives) proved you didn't need that > > level of sophistication to operate a floppy disk mechanism. > > There was also only a single drive mechanism to fiddle with in the > 1541. Design improvements aside, that may have helped shrink it down > to a single processor. > > > It cost Peddle, too, Jack was furious at the cost and design lag of the > > IEEE drives. I'm not sure Chuck ever fully recovered. > > One thing I do remember is the story that some "damn connector" was in > short supply in the PET era and that part of the mandate from Jack was > that the next drive "better not use that". > > I never heard for certain which exact connector it was - could have > been the IEEE-488 cable connector or the PCB connector - either way, > no cables or no boards means lost sales opportunities. > > -ethan _________________________________________________________________ From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jan 26 14:24:03 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:24:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8051, was Re: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CB46956-1778-4478-A932-3899AA67D392@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e1001261032j47a9fe7ak6b78b93b752f8b3c@mail.gmail.com> <66AD9588-0F02-4A9E-AA57-1C72D75D604B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jan 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 26, 2010, at 1:49 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>> market, but there are many 8051s in there too. >>> >>> They are *everywhere*. I was flabbergasted when I learned just how >>> ubiquitous they area. >> >> Why is it so popular? > > It has been second-sourced by just about every chip manufacturer in Thanks for the explaination Dave. I'm just getting into microcontrollers right now - I'm working with Atmel ATMega devices. I like the toolchain and I can leverage all the work done with the Arduino software stack.. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue Jan 26 14:25:07 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:25:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <4B5F4AEE.9040007@atarimuseum.com> References: <2098608013.4903411264532848664.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <4B5F4AEE.9040007@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <342390.63918.qm@web83901.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> That's very interesting! I look forward to seeing the results of your investigations. ________________________________ From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Tue, January 26, 2010 2:05:02 PM Subject: Re: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) Atari already had the Amiga, paid for and financed its development from March 3, 1984 through June 29, 1984 with $500,000 long before Tramiel was ever in the picture. I even have a photo of the Warner Comm. owned Atari check to Amiga that Dave Morse cashed. Atari was already well into development of project "Mickey" a high end game console that would use the Amiga chipset, I even have copies of the actual wirewrap board. In court, the judge asked Dave Morse to present the June 84 CES version of the Amiga, Dave Morse lied on the stand and said it was taken apart and used for other revisions... of course we all now know that is a complete lie, as Dale Luck brings that unit to the Vintage Computer Fest shows each year. I have most of the court documents right up to the sudden request to settle out of court. The settlement details are private and sealed. My suspicion is someone within Commodore, still loyal to Jack Tramiel, tipped him off about the CES unit still being in existence and that evidence was presented to the Amiga lawyers and then they immediately wanted to settle out of court. Essentially the June 84 CES proto would've proved that Amiga had made significant progress on the design from the Jan 84 CES model, that progress made the machine workable and of course sellable to Commodore... which meant all of that progress was due to Atari's investment into the machine from the $500,000 and therefor Atari now held a stake in the machine, despite the company paying back the money to Atari the day before the June 30th deadline whereby Atari, Inc (Not Tramiels Atari Corp) would then have access to all Amiga chip data and materials to use according to the terms outlined in the March 1984 contract agreement (which I also have) all of this occured just days before Atari was sold to Jack Tramiel. Jack knew nothing of the Amiga-Atari agreement, if it wasn't for his son finding the cashed check from Amiga in Atari's files, they may have never have known... ...this is all going to be revealed in full detail quite soon, its been over 500 pages of documents and has lead to a massive research project that myself and Marty Goldberg have been working on for over 6 months. Curt Dan Roganti wrote: > > ----- Dave McGuire wrote: > > >> I often wondered what it'd be like to build a small computing with Atari graphics hardware and Commodore audio hardware. That'd be neat, eh? >> > > That was the Amiga !! > > All hail for Jay Miner !! > > Too bad Atari lost out on this, I think they deserved to build this, but you know how shifty Tramiel was :) > > =Dan > -- > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 26 14:33:11 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 15:33:11 -0500 Subject: 8051, was Re: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CB46956-1778-4478-A932-3899AA67D392@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e1001261032j47a9fe7ak6b78b93b752f8b3c@mail.gmail.com> <66AD9588-0F02-4A9E-AA57-1C72D75D604B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Jan 26, 2010, at 3:24 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>>> market, but there are many 8051s in there too. >>>> They are *everywhere*. I was flabbergasted when I learned just >>>> how ubiquitous they area. >>> Why is it so popular? >> >> It has been second-sourced by just about every chip manufacturer in > > > Thanks for the explaination Dave. I'm just getting into > microcontrollers right now - I'm working with Atmel ATMega > devices. I like the toolchain and I can leverage all the work done > with the Arduino software stack.. That's good stuff! The AVR architecture looks wonderful from the docs, though I've never programmed it myself. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 14:33:42 2010 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 15:33:42 -0500 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <20100126121019.C88224@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100126072957.GA31588@Update.UU.SE> <430737.94925.qm@web113501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <5f7d1b0e1001260635y2e86653clcb74fdc6ddd6f160@mail.gmail.com> <20100126151508.GA12268@Update.UU.SE> <20100126121019.C88224@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4affc5e1001261233j3983e9d4r6355bf8b6f00a2ee@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 15:10, Fred Cisin wrote: > EBCDIC V ASCII ! Punched Cards vs. Paper Tape vs. Mag Tape (or Mag wire?) Relays vs. Tubes? -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jan 26 14:36:56 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:36:56 -0700 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <4affc5e1001261233j3983e9d4r6355bf8b6f00a2ee@mail.gmail.com> References: <20100126072957.GA31588@Update.UU.SE> <430737.94925.qm@web113501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <5f7d1b0e1001260635y2e86653clcb74fdc6ddd6f160@mail.gmail.com> <20100126151508.GA12268@Update.UU.SE> <20100126121019.C88224@shell.lmi.net> <4affc5e1001261233j3983e9d4r6355bf8b6f00a2ee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B5F5268.6000505@jetnet.ab.ca> Joachim Thiemann wrote: > On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 15:10, Fred Cisin wrote: >> EBCDIC V ASCII ! > > Punched Cards vs. Paper Tape vs. Mag Tape (or Mag wire?) > Relays vs. Tubes? You forgot Paper Tape vs Punched Film stock. Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jan 26 14:40:10 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:40:10 -0700 Subject: 8051, was Re: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CB46956-1778-4478-A932-3899AA67D392@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e1001261032j47a9fe7ak6b78b93b752f8b3c@mail.gmail.com> <66AD9588-0F02-4A9E-AA57-1C72D75D604B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B5F532A.9080509@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: >> Thanks for the explaination Dave. I'm just getting into >> microcontrollers right now - I'm working with Atmel ATMega devices. I >> like the toolchain and I can leverage all the work done with the >> Arduino software stack.. > > That's good stuff! The AVR architecture looks wonderful from the docs, > though I've never programmed it myself. I am into programing Atmel CPLD's, I like programing hardware better than software. Ben. > -Dave > PS. With the advent of CPLD's, I am surprised there has not been more 'add on boards' for vintage computer equipment. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jan 26 14:46:32 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:46:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8051, was Re: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CB46956-1778-4478-A932-3899AA67D392@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e1001261032j47a9fe7ak6b78b93b752f8b3c@mail.gmail.com> <66AD9588-0F02-4A9E-AA57-1C72D75D604B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jan 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 26, 2010, at 3:24 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>>>> market, but there are many 8051s in there too. >>>>> They are *everywhere*. I was flabbergasted when I learned just how >>>>> ubiquitous they area. >>>> Why is it so popular? >>> >>> It has been second-sourced by just about every chip manufacturer in >> >> >> Thanks for the explaination Dave. I'm just getting into microcontrollers >> right now - I'm working with Atmel ATMega devices. I like the toolchain >> and I can leverage all the work done with the Arduino software stack.. > > That's good stuff! The AVR architecture looks wonderful from the docs, > though I've never programmed it myself. > I bought one of Atmel's STK500 "beginner" kits last week. It looks pretty interestin, but I haven't had time to dig into it yet. Still building projectors for the sim. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Tue Jan 26 14:49:34 2010 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 21:49:34 +0100 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5F2C92.10301@bitsavers.org> References: <201001251602.o0PG2vX9018022@floodgap.com> <4B5DC4E1.2040109@verizon.net> <6dbe3c381001250832q3e5972efi5650d1427d3bcba8@mail.gmail.com><4B5DC8EB.20903@verizon.net> <4B5E171E.4060608@jetnet.ab.ca> <7291CC5AD6A74BB4AD89E0195447B6F9@EDIConsultingLtd.local> <4B5F2C92.10301@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4B5F555E.5070401@bluewin.ch> > > Ask a curator at the Smithsonian or the British Science Museum if you > can take > one of their artifacts home to play with, and see how far you get. > What you will > find out is there is a big difference between a computer club with a > public > collection, and institutions following AAM guidelines. Luckily the Berne Museum of Kommunikation does not use these guidelines, or the Liltih's Medos OS source code would still be lingering on a cartridge for very obscure and unreliable disksystem in a very propriatary format. Sometimes mere hobbyists do make contributions that museums are unable/unwilling to deliver ! Jos Dreesen From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jan 26 15:17:47 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:17:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <20100126115546.M88224@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Jan 26, 10 12:01:35 pm" Message-ID: <201001262117.o0QLHlhr016110@floodgap.com> > > OS9 - the one true OS to rule them all! :P > > I assume that you are talking about the Microware product for 6809 > (including Coco), NOT the Apple Mac OS. > > > But, what about Pro-Dos? > Pick? (where's my copy of "The Pick Pocket guide"? > Mumps? > Micro-Dos (Micropolis, was available for TRS-80!) > CP/M-68K? AMOS! -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Experience only makes you more interesting and marketable. -- Judy Blackburn From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 26 15:18:49 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:18:49 -0800 Subject: Recurring subject: Goo removal In-Reply-To: <4B5F43BE.2070504@bitsavers.org> References: <4B5E0A93.1000106@tx.rr.com>, <4B5ED118.193.82EB13@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B5F43BE.2070504@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4B5EEBB9.25376.EAF2E9@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Jan 2010 at 11:34, Al Kossow wrote: > Did the laws change in Oregon? I thought self-serve was banned there? Yep, and for now, the oil companies seem to have given up on that one. It's curious seeing someone from out-of-state pulling up and trying to pump their own gas. Are we the only state in the US with no self-serve gas? And no sales tax? --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jan 26 15:19:36 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:19:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Recurring subject: Goo removal In-Reply-To: <4B5F43BE.2070504@bitsavers.org> from Al Kossow at "Jan 26, 10 11:34:22 am" Message-ID: <201001262119.o0QLJa5N016968@floodgap.com> > > But then, ordinary gasoline contains several carcinogenic substances. > > That's why we have self-serve stations to spread the risk around. > > Did the laws change in Oregon? I thought self-serve was banned there? It sure is (banned, that is). I hate that. Same thing for New Jersey. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- You cannot have a science without measurement. -- R. W. Hamming ------------ From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jan 26 15:21:21 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:21:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5F40C9.8010603@bitsavers.org> from Al Kossow at "Jan 26, 10 11:21:45 am" Message-ID: <201001262121.o0QLLLpD017594@floodgap.com> > I do try to explain the differences when people ask why we don't have more > running hardware. What about emulation? That sounds like something the museum may want to sponsor (with its copious spare cash, natch ;-). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Falling in love is no way of getting to know someone. -- Sheila Sullivan --- From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 15:22:40 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 16:22:40 -0500 Subject: Recurring subject: Goo removal In-Reply-To: <4B5EEBB9.25376.EAF2E9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B5E0A93.1000106@tx.rr.com> <4B5ED118.193.82EB13@cclist.sydex.com> <4B5F43BE.2070504@bitsavers.org> <4B5EEBB9.25376.EAF2E9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 1/26/10, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Are we the only state in the US with no self-serve gas? And no sales > tax? Self-serve is illegal in NJ, and Delaware has no sales tax. Oregon might be the only place with both, though. -ethan From alhartman at yahoo.com Tue Jan 26 15:26:59 2010 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:26:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Free Stuff for pickup in NJ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <223607.41150.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com> I have some extra hardware that is free for pickup in Keansburg NJ starting next week: Qty 2 - HP Laserjet IIIP Printers Mixed lot of ISA network cards, mostly NE2000 clones. I think there's at least one NE1000 in there. Cards only. No docs or drivers. Most are dual Coax/10-Base-T Lot of Corvus stuff: Constellation Controller, mixed lot of Apple II/IBM adapters, a Mirror board, I think there's a 5mb Mac Omnidrive too, Constellation Cables, and some manuals/software. IBM Graphics Printer (EPSON MX-80) Power 100 Computer PowerMac 8500 Mac IIsi Mac LC III Mac LC I with a newer logic board in it. I have the original also. (I have keyboards and mice to go with all Macs.) HP Deskwriter Wallstreet G3 233mhz I'm moving to a smaller place and this old stuff has to go. PM me off-list. Al From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jan 26 15:27:31 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:27:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <7A01384E-2694-49DC-8F88-50D01C5BF67F@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Jan 26, 10 01:36:38 pm" Message-ID: <201001262127.o0QLRVJV014232@floodgap.com> > When I was a kid, I had an Atari 800, and my best friend Rob had a > Commodore 64. We'd fight back and forth all the time, but we both > loved showing off our systems to each other. He was always in awe of > the Atari's graphics, and I was always in awe of his C64's audio. Mind you, I like ANTIC and POKEY, though ANTIC more than POKEY. I have issues with player/missile graphics, but the palette and graphics modes more than make up for those, and so do display lists. You can get something like display lists out of a VIC-II, and if you really work at it a few extra colours, but you'll bind up the 6510 something fierce for something that ANTIC gives you for free. POKEY does have a distinct sound which is in its own way unique and pleasant, but SID really was unmatched for the time. > I often wondered what it'd be like to build a small computing with > Atari graphics hardware and Commodore audio hardware. That'd be > neat, eh? People have already said the Amiga, but I'm not sure if I buy that. Agnus is clearly ANTIC-inspired, but I don't really see much SID-like about Paula or Portia. If anything, they act more like POKEY. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Don't be humble ... you're not that great. -- Golda Meir ------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jan 26 15:30:00 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:30:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <201001262127.o0QLRVJV014232@floodgap.com> from Cameron Kaiser at "Jan 26, 10 01:27:31 pm" Message-ID: <201001262130.o0QLU07u018078@floodgap.com> > > When I was a kid, I had an Atari 800, and my best friend Rob had a > > Commodore 64. We'd fight back and forth all the time, but we both > > loved showing off our systems to each other. He was always in awe of > > the Atari's graphics, and I was always in awe of his C64's audio. > > Mind you, I like ANTIC and POKEY, though ANTIC more than POKEY. I have > issues with player/missile graphics, but the palette and graphics modes > more than make up for those, and so do display lists. I should add here that I have intentionally conflated ANTIC and GTIA. I know that GTIA generates P/Ms, but I don't think I've seen any application of ANTIC *without* GTIA/CTIA. (Curt would know, of course.) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- MOVIE IDEA: From Russia with E-mail Signature ------------------------------ From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jan 26 15:30:39 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:30:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <201001262117.o0QLHlhr016110@floodgap.com> References: <201001262117.o0QLHlhr016110@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jan 2010, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> OS9 - the one true OS to rule them all! :P >> >> I assume that you are talking about the Microware product for 6809 >> (including Coco), NOT the Apple Mac OS. >> >> >> But, what about Pro-Dos? >> Pick? (where's my copy of "The Pick Pocket guide"? Friends don't let friends use JOIN. *huge grin* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 26 15:51:20 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:51:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20100126135025.V19325@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 26 Jan 2010, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > PowerPC versus x86 ... just because we lost doesn't mean we don't keep > having that fight. ;-) another characteristic of true religious wars From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jan 26 15:51:26 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 21:51:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Boolean opertaors (was Re: Recurring subject: Goo removal ) In-Reply-To: <4B5EB445.21358.1254CF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <750139.14064.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> ... and so are boolean operators. Only recently (a few weeks ago) I discovered the meaning of "!=". Personally I always prefer "<>" and dislike seeing "><" even though they mean the same thing. Or is the "<>" vs. "!=" a bit like the Return vs. Enter argument (e.g. it depends what computer/s you were brought up/trained on). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Tue, 26/1/10, Chuck Guzis wrote: From: Chuck Guzis Subject: Re: Recurring subject: Goo removal To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Tuesday, 26 January, 2010, 17:22 English is confusing at times. --Chuck From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 15:54:24 2010 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 16:54:24 -0500 Subject: Ebay final fee increases Message-ID: I received an email today of the new auction final fee schedule. I dug out the old emails (thanks to gmail). Before 02/18/2005: $0.01 - $25: 5.25% of the closing value $25.01 - $1,000: add 2.75% for those over $25 Over $1,000: add 1.5 for those over $1000 After 02/18/2005: $0.01 - $25: 8% of the closing value $25.01 - $1,000: add 5% for those over $25 Over $1,000: add 3% for those over $1000 (may miss some increases in between) After 03/01/2010: 9% ($50 cap) Thank you, monopoly. From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jan 26 15:56:35 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:56:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Boolean opertaors (was Re: Recurring subject: Goo removal ) In-Reply-To: <750139.14064.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> from Andrew Burton at "Jan 26, 10 09:51:26 pm" Message-ID: <201001262156.o0QLuZxM017542@floodgap.com> > Or is the "<>" vs. "!=" a bit like the Return vs. Enter argument > (e.g. it depends what computer/s you were brought up/trained on). I wouldn't say that. I grew up learning Commodore BASIC, but I hardly use it now, instead using Algol-derived languages like Perl and C which use != (thus I use "!=" > "<>"). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I, for one, welcome our new C64 overlords. -- John Floren ------------------ From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 26 16:16:46 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 14:16:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <4affc5e1001261233j3983e9d4r6355bf8b6f00a2ee@mail.gmail.com> References: <20100126072957.GA31588@Update.UU.SE> <430737.94925.qm@web113501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <5f7d1b0e1001260635y2e86653clcb74fdc6ddd6f160@mail.gmail.com> <20100126151508.GA12268@Update.UU.SE> <20100126121019.C88224@shell.lmi.net> <4affc5e1001261233j3983e9d4r6355bf8b6f00a2ee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100126141613.O19325@shell.lmi.net> > > EBCDIC V ASCII ! On Tue, 26 Jan 2010, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > Punched Cards vs. Paper Tape vs. Mag Tape (or Mag wire?) > Relays vs. Tubes? Analog V Digital! From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 26 16:19:17 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 14:19:17 -0800 Subject: Boolean opertaors (was Re: Recurring subject: Goo removal ) In-Reply-To: <750139.14064.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <4B5EB445.21358.1254CF@cclist.sydex.com>, <750139.14064.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B5EF9E5.30070.1224CE5@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Jan 2010 at 21:51, Andrew Burton wrote: > Only recently (a few weeks ago) I discovered the meaning of "!=". > Personally I always prefer "<>" and dislike seeing "><" even though > they mean the same thing. Personally, I prefer .NE., but I'm a dinosaur. --Chuck From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Jan 26 16:24:41 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 17:24:41 -0500 Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <201001262130.o0QLU07u018078@floodgap.com> References: <201001262130.o0QLU07u018078@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4B5F6BA9.6010305@atarimuseum.com> Well, the GTIA/CTIA is actually the Player Missile Generator, it is also the converter to take the digital data from an Antic and generate video signals, it also handles collisions and produces keyboard key clicks -- those are its basic functions. You need the ANTIC is the companion to the CTIA/GTIA, in fact the functions original were meant to be combined, but the cost of going past a 40 pin package were too expensive at the time, so the functions were separated. ANTIC is a DMA controller besides handling graphics displays and text modes as well as one of Atari's most power features, its Display List. Pokey was meant to handle analog controllers and keyboard input. It also was the systems sound processor. Digital control was handled by a standard 6532 PIA (Parallel Interface Adapter) Curt Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> When I was a kid, I had an Atari 800, and my best friend Rob had a >>> Commodore 64. We'd fight back and forth all the time, but we both >>> loved showing off our systems to each other. He was always in awe of >>> the Atari's graphics, and I was always in awe of his C64's audio. >>> >> Mind you, I like ANTIC and POKEY, though ANTIC more than POKEY. I have >> issues with player/missile graphics, but the palette and graphics modes >> more than make up for those, and so do display lists. >> > > I should add here that I have intentionally conflated ANTIC and GTIA. I > know that GTIA generates P/Ms, but I don't think I've seen any application > of ANTIC *without* GTIA/CTIA. (Curt would know, of course.) > > From ken at seefried.com Tue Jan 26 16:43:51 2010 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 22:43:51 +0000 Subject: ARM & 8051 Shipments (and kinda PPC) Message-ID: I've looked into this a bit. As noted previously, it is essentially impossible to figure out exact shipments of 8051, as there is no central clearinghouse of licensees, and there are literally dozens of suppliers sticking 8051 IP in all sorts of things. That said, according to the only reasonably well cited analyst report I have (from Emitt Solutions), the 8051 architecture accounted for 19% of the US$4.9 billion 8-bit MPU market in 2007. If you wave your hand and say the average volume price across all 8051 variants is US$0.25 (a number I think is probably high), that's around 40 billion units shipped in 2007. According the Annual Report for ARM Holdings, Plc., there were shipped 2.6 billion ARM processors for mobile applications and 1.4 billion in other applications from all licenses in 2008. This was up from around 3 billion units in 2007 (in a total market for 32-bit embedded processors of around US$3.8B). Safe to assume it was more than that in 2009. Not sure what that represents as a revenue number, as ARM Holdings revenue numbers are for licensing fees. However, one could guess it's a market of significantly more than US$4b across all licensees in 2008. By comparison, Freescale did around US$1.88B in microcontroller sales, but that was across all their lines (including the still very popular 68xx/HC lines), so is safe to assume the actual units shipped for PPC is a fraction of ARM numbers. I know there are other PPC licensees, but I don't think they're going to make up that gap. All analysts agree that the 8-bit market is eroding and the 32-bit world is exploding, from a market share if not revenue perspective. KJ From arcbe2001 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 26 17:34:13 2010 From: arcbe2001 at yahoo.com (Russ Bartlett) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 15:34:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ebay final fee increases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <115780.25785.qm@web110412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Let us not kid ourselves here!? They try to position it as though they are giving us something when the reality is it is all about ebay making even money for themselves.? Next move might to be outsourcing all the buyers to China and India.? They took out the line item for insurance as they don't want the buyers to see the true bottom line and from a buyer perspective they want them to foot the bill. --- On Tue, 1/26/10, 9000 VAX wrote: From: 9000 VAX Subject: Ebay final fee increases To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Tuesday, January 26, 2010, 4:54 PM I received an email today of the new auction final fee schedule. I dug out the old emails (thanks to gmail). Before 02/18/2005: $0.01 - $25:? ? ? ? ? ? 5.25% of the closing value $25.01 - $1,000:? ???add 2.75% for those over $25 Over $1,000:? ? ? ? ? add 1.5 for those over $1000 After 02/18/2005: $0.01 - $25:? ? ? ? ? ? 8% of the closing value $25.01 - $1,000:? ???add 5% for those over $25 Over $1,000:? ? ? ? ? add 3% for those over $1000 (may miss some increases in between) After 03/01/2010: 9% ($50 cap) Thank you, monopoly. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jan 26 17:33:15 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 23:33:15 +0000 Subject: ARM & 8051 Shipments (and kinda PPC) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B5F7BBB.8080407@dunnington.plus.com> On 26/01/2010 22:43, Ken Seefried wrote: > I've looked into this a bit. :-) You've saved me some work there! > As noted previously, it is essentially impossible to figure out exact > shipments of 8051 [...] > If you wave your hand and say the average volume price > across all 8051 variants is US$0.25 (a number I think is probably > high), that's around 40 billion units shipped in 2007. I must admit that's more than I thought... more than 100 million a day. > According the Annual Report for ARM Holdings, Plc., there were > shipped 2.6 billion ARM processors for mobile applications and 1.4 > billion in other applications from all licenses in 2008. This was up > from around 3 billion units in 2007 (in a total market for 32-bit > embedded processors of around US$3.8B). So that's roughly 1/10 of the 8051 units, and I'm forced to concede I was wrong about ARM being most prolific. > By comparison, Freescale did around US$1.88B in microcontroller > sales, but that was across all their lines (including the still very > popular 68xx/HC lines), so is safe to assume the actual units shipped > for PPC is a fraction of ARM numbers. I know there are other PPC > licensees, but I don't think they're going to make up that gap. > > All analysts agree that the 8-bit market is eroding and the 32-bit > world is exploding, from a market share if not revenue perspective. There's an awful lot of 32-bit parts in things that don't really need that sort of grunt. I'm reminded of a colleague who told me his friend was working on fuses for explosives -- building PICs into the detonators. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 26 18:03:22 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 16:03:22 -0800 Subject: Ebay final fee increases In-Reply-To: <115780.25785.qm@web110412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <115780.25785.qm@web110412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B5F82CA.7010207@bitsavers.org> On 1/26/10 3:34 PM, Russ Bartlett wrote: > They try to position it as though they are giving us something when the reality is it is all about ebay making even money for themselves > Last I checked, eBay was a for-profit public corporation. What they provide hasn't improved at all for buyers. The only thing they haven't done (yet) is make their twitchy popups flash. I noticed today they added more crap for their 'buyer protection' on every page. > Before 02/18/2005: > $0.01 - $25: 5.25% of the closing value > $25.01 - $1,000: add 2.75% for those over $25 > Over $1,000: add 1.5 for those over $1000 > > After 02/18/2005: > $0.01 - $25: 8% of the closing value > $25.01 - $1,000: add 5% for those over $25 > Over $1,000: add 3% for those over $1000 > > (may miss some increases in between) > > After 03/01/2010: > 9% ($50 cap) > Observations: If I'm reading this correctly, they are trying to increase the number of high-ticket auctions. Makes sense if they're trying to reduce transaction counts. There seem to be insane numbers of auctions in the 5 - 20 dollar range. Almost nothing sells for less than $10 with shipping. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 26 18:09:33 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 16:09:33 -0800 Subject: ARM & 8051 Shipments (and kinda PPC) In-Reply-To: <4B5F7BBB.8080407@dunnington.plus.com> References: , <4B5F7BBB.8080407@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4B5F13BD.20597.DC97A@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Jan 2010 at 23:33, Pete Turnbull wrote: > There's an awful lot of 32-bit parts in things that don't really need > that sort of grunt. I'm reminded of a colleague who told me his > friend was working on fuses for explosives -- building PICs into the > detonators. That trend will probably continue with the Cortex M0 chips coming out. Just as cheap as the PIC and AVR and 8051 types. --Chuck From brain at jbrain.com Tue Jan 26 18:25:14 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 18:25:14 -0600 Subject: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: References: <4B5F3EF9.4090300@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4B5F87EA.5020901@jbrain.com> On 1/26/2010 1:25 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 1/26/10, Jim Brain wrote: > > > There was also only a single drive mechanism to fiddle with in the > 1541. Design improvements aside, that may have helped shrink it down > to a single processor. > I doubt it. The job queue and such on the IEEE drives could only handle 1 drive at a time. > > One thing I do remember is the story that some "damn connector" was in > short supply in the PET era and that part of the mandate from Jack was > that the next drive "better not use that". > According to Jim Butterfield, it was the IEEE488 24 pin "centronics" (or whatever they are called) connector. Note the PET itself didn't use the connector, opting for the simpler2x12x3.96mm connector. > I never heard for certain which exact connector it was - could have > been the IEEE-488 cable connector or the PCB connector - either way, > no cables or no boards means lost sales opportunities. > According to Butterfield, Belkin ran out of the IEEE cables at some point, which angered Jack to no end. He was not set up to produce cables, and he didn;t like being held up by a supplier. Jim From brain at jbrain.com Tue Jan 26 18:34:33 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 18:34:33 -0600 Subject: 8051, was Re: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CB46956-1778-4478-A932-3899AA67D392@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e1001261032j47a9fe7ak6b78b93b752f8b3c@mail.gmail.com> <66AD9588-0F02-4A9E-AA57-1C72D75D604B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B5F8A19.7080907@jbrain.com> On 1/26/2010 2:24 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Tue, 26 Jan 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On Jan 26, 2010, at 1:49 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>>> market, but there are many 8051s in there too. >>>> >>>> They are *everywhere*. I was flabbergasted when I learned just how >>>> ubiquitous they area. >>> >>> Why is it so popular? >> >> It has been second-sourced by just about every chip manufacturer in > > > Thanks for the explaination Dave. I'm just getting into > microcontrollers right now - I'm working with Atmel ATMega devices. I > like the toolchain and I can leverage all the work done with the > Arduino software stack.. > > g. > In 2004, after being out of embedded programming for a decade (6502 to 68HC11), I decided to get back into it. After researching a number of architectures, I chose the AVR. I have never been happier. I will admit Microchip did a better job of marketing their parts in the past, but the Arduino has raised the visibility of the AVR, and there are many more variants of the AVR now. I think PIC still has more lower cost options, if a mass produced item is your goal. Feel free to ask any AVR questions off-list. They make a nice platform for retro peripherals (CBM ones, here) Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 26 18:47:10 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 19:47:10 -0500 Subject: ARM & 8051 Shipments (and kinda PPC) In-Reply-To: <4B5F13BD.20597.DC97A@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B5F7BBB.8080407@dunnington.plus.com> <4B5F13BD.20597.DC97A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <7A927033-77B3-41C8-9E54-C1C3FEC72DA6@neurotica.com> On Jan 26, 2010, at 7:09 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> There's an awful lot of 32-bit parts in things that don't really need >> that sort of grunt. I'm reminded of a colleague who told me his >> friend was working on fuses for explosives -- building PICs into the >> detonators. > > That trend will probably continue with the Cortex M0 chips coming > out. Just as cheap as the PIC and AVR and 8051 types. That's pretty scary stuff. I will laugh in the face of the "engineer" who designs a 32-bit processor into a refrigerator. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jan 26 18:52:58 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 17:52:58 -0700 Subject: ARM & 8051 Shipments (and kinda PPC) In-Reply-To: <7A927033-77B3-41C8-9E54-C1C3FEC72DA6@neurotica.com> References: , <4B5F7BBB.8080407@dunnington.plus.com> <4B5F13BD.20597.DC97A@cclist.sydex.com> <7A927033-77B3-41C8-9E54-C1C3FEC72DA6@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B5F8E6A.4050204@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > That's pretty scary stuff. I will laugh in the face of the "engineer" > who designs a 32-bit processor into a refrigerator. Umm your ice dispensor needs a net address for haveing a cold drink made from you cell plhone. > -Dave Other than cell phones, I think 8051 is everything but toasters and waffle irons. Ben. Now back to my bit slice design slower than a 8080A. Where on this schematic capture program anything about edge connector fingers.??? From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jan 26 18:55:51 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 16:55:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <20100126141613.O19325@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Jan 26, 10 02:16:46 pm" Message-ID: <201001270055.o0R0tpWN016956@floodgap.com> > > > EBCDIC V ASCII ! > > Punched Cards vs. Paper Tape vs. Mag Tape (or Mag wire?) > > Relays vs. Tubes? > Analog V Digital! Tubes vs. transistors? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Even cabbage more sense than you! -- Shampoo, "Ranma 1/2" ------------------ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 18:57:25 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 19:57:25 -0500 Subject: Ebay final fee increases In-Reply-To: <4B5F82CA.7010207@bitsavers.org> References: <115780.25785.qm@web110412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4B5F82CA.7010207@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > What they provide hasn't improved at all for buyers. > > The only thing they haven't done (yet) is make their > twitchy popups flash. Nor sellers. The general consensus is that things can not really get all that much worse. They have paperworked the selling process to within an inch of its life, neutered feedback to uselessness, have a completely flawed seller protection system, and have raised rates about as high as they can go. Now, when I hear about Ebay changes, I no longer sweat. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for they screwed us already and we are used to it. > If I'm reading this correctly, they are trying to increase the number of > high-ticket > auctions. Makes sense if they're trying to reduce transaction counts. No, I do not think so. I think they are just trying to squeeze the orange just a little more. These latest increases are really not all that bad for lower and average ticket items, once you figure in that picture fees have been slowly going away, and now listing fees are going away. One advantage I can see with this latest move is that I can put up a lot more weird crap that I doubted in the past. Now I do not have to worry about having stuff not sell. > There seem to be insane numbers of auctions in the 5 - 20 dollar range. Yes, this is a sweet spot. If I look at my numbers, the average is just around 30 dollars per sale, with a big lump just around ten bucks. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 26 19:01:37 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 17:01:37 -0800 Subject: ARM & 8051 Shipments (and kinda PPC) In-Reply-To: <7A927033-77B3-41C8-9E54-C1C3FEC72DA6@neurotica.com> References: , <4B5F13BD.20597.DC97A@cclist.sydex.com>, <7A927033-77B3-41C8-9E54-C1C3FEC72DA6@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B5F1FF1.14179.3D74C9@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Jan 2010 at 19:47, Dave McGuire wrote: > That's pretty scary stuff. I will laugh in the face of the > "engineer" who designs a 32-bit processor into a refrigerator. Remove the "32-bit" from your sentence and you my sentiments. True story--my sister-in-law is legally blind and usually quite self- sufficient. When she and her husband decided to remodel their kitchen, they couldn't find a new electric range with knobs that would give a tactile indication of which burner was on and the level. Just buttons and displays. Which is very dangerous if you can't see. I don't understand why anyone would design a dishwasher with a CPU in it--surely that has to be one of the most hostile environments in the home. I like my radios with tuning knobs and really thougth the volume knob on my old HP PC keyboard was pretty neat. I'm thinking about how I might add one to a Model M. --Chuck From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Jan 26 19:05:25 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 20:05:25 -0500 Subject: Douglas Goodall releases his PowerC DOS utils into PD... In-Reply-To: <4B5F1FF1.14179.3D74C9@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B5F13BD.20597.DC97A@cclist.sydex.com>, <7A927033-77B3-41C8-9E54-C1C3FEC72DA6@neurotica.com> <4B5F1FF1.14179.3D74C9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B5F9155.1060804@atarimuseum.com> Douglas Goodall has released the source and executables of his PowerC Utilities for DOS. Available at http://server.goodall.com/~doug/pub/development/powerc These utilities do things such as read floppy images into disk files, restore disk files to floppies, read sectors and make C header files from the sectors, read prom images from a Data I/O 280 Set Programmer, dump files in hex and ascii. Also is included code to low-level format floppies. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 26 19:15:39 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 20:15:39 -0500 Subject: TU58 Tape Images for 11/750 In-Reply-To: <2645f9871001201805o479fc59cr936d147b1a495366@mail.gmail.com> References: <2645f9871001201805o479fc59cr936d147b1a495366@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jan 20, 2010, at 9:05 PM, B M wrote: > Is there anyone interested in acquiring the various bits of media and > knowledge in one area specific to the Vax-11/750? The result of the > work would still go to bitsavers, this would be a special interest > group ;-) I'm very much interested in this. I have a big soft spot for the 11/750; I was a sysadmin for one for a long time many years ago (VMS) and later had one at home, back when that was considered "odd" (1992 I think)...I stupidly sold it and missed it ever since, and got one from a listmember not long ago. It's not yet running, but it will be; I need some little mechanical parts for it and then I'll start testing power supplies. > My 11/750 has VMS 4.7 loaded, and I am looking for images that I can > use reinstall VMS onto a new drive (I don't want to scribble over top > of the drive I have for fear it may contain something important). What sort of drive is it? > I would also like to organize a SIG for the really early PDP-11's > (PDP-11/20 and PDP-11/10). I think a group of SIGs like this is a really good idea. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From madodel at ptdprolog.net Tue Jan 26 20:05:33 2010 From: madodel at ptdprolog.net (madodel) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 21:05:33 -0500 Subject: OS/2 (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <4b5e34fc.101abc0a.715d.ffffdad9@mx.google.com> References: <4B5DF8DF.50009@vaxen.net> from Doc Shipley at "Jan 25, 10 02:02:39 pm", <201001252200.o0PM0DX2004016@floodgap.com> <4B5DAA2B.7568.13F031D@cclist.sydex.com> <09E4F716-7463-489B-A48D-B8295CC4D6F2@mail.msu.edu> <4b5e34fc.101abc0a.715d.ffffdad9@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4B5F9F6D.7040805@ptdprolog.net> Lance Lyon wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Josh Dersch > Sent: Tuesday, 26 January 2010 10:48 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: OS/2 (was Re: Museums) > > > >> It occurs to me that OS/2 is one of the OSes I have yet to spend an >> appreciable amount of time with that I keep meaning to (another >> example being VMS...) > >> Where would you guys suggest starting if I wanted to get a good feel >> for it? (what versions, what hardware, what fun software to play >> around with...) > >> Heck, where would one get a legit copy of this these days? > > Warp 4 (Warp 3 at a pinch) for the original, else you can by eComStation at > http://www.ecomstation.com/ > > Warp turns up regularly at eBay > > As far as hardware, it isn't too demanding and will run on most modern PC's > - drivers aren't such a big issue as there are generics available. Warp4 would have problems with any current hardware because of ACPI and large drives. Video may also be a problem if you need anything other then VGA OS/2 Warp is best on IBM PS/2. But OS/2 Warp (3 or 4) can do very well on just about anything from a 486 to a P4 > > My Warp 4.52 box is a 233MHz Pentium with 64mb RAM and an 8gb drive - more > than sufficient for the task! That is great hardware for OS/2. Pre- OS/2 2.0 versions (1.0 - 1.3) are very hardware selective. 2.0 was the first 32 bit version and was more tolerant of non-IBM hardware. Still PS/2's are the best hardware for OS/2. I have run Warp 4 on as modern as a Pentium Mobile T42 laptop with 2GB of RAM. And I have run it on a Gateway 486 with just 4MB RAM (though it ran much better with 16MB). Beyond that you would pretty much need the newest version of OS/2 (eComStation) for a successful install because of problems with the size of drives and RAM in current systems. > > For software, go to Hobbes - http://hobbes.nmsu.edu/ The best repository for OS/2 software. > > OS/2 still remains my one of my favourite OS's to this day. Mine as well, but I'm running the eComStation version on all my machines now because of the better hardware support out of the box, including dual core support. Mark From evan at snarc.net Tue Jan 26 20:41:51 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 21:41:51 -0500 Subject: Herb Grosch Message-ID: <4B5FA7EF.7090805@snarc.net> Computer scientist Herb Grosch died today. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herb_Grosch From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Jan 26 21:50:34 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 19:50:34 -0800 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <64B8FF93-34B5-47CA-9889-6D4B80B54A85@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 1/26/10 12:17 AM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > > Heh, unfortunately! ;) > > But what I was really referring to is operating systems needing to > be preemptively rebooted to keep them stable, and other absurd stuff > like that. Nobody should put up with that. The fact that many > people DO put up with it doesn't change the fact that it's just plain > silly. > > -Dave I am currently jousting with purchasing at work, trying to get a macpro instead of a standard windows machine. I'm sick and tired of the "lets remotely reboot all the windows machines 2x a week with no advance warning" tango. That and having to reboot the bloody thing because it has become unstable. My mac pro at home running macosx is just plain stable. If they made a niagra based workstation and the software I need to run was available for it, that is what I'd be trying to get. From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Jan 26 21:57:48 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 19:57:48 -0800 Subject: 8051, was Re: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dumb 8051ish related question.... Will 8040 code run on a '51? I have yet to find a definitive yea or nay :( From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 26 22:30:36 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 23:30:36 -0500 Subject: Be careful handling computer racks In-Reply-To: References: , <4B4CCA9C.1080006@atarimuseum.com>, <4B4CE041.9010200@tdh.com> <4B4C73D1.14388.C532E9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Jan 12, 2010, at 4:20 PM, Ian King wrote: > When I got my VAX 6660, it was on a pallet that was well on its way > to being nothing more than kindling. As the poor delivery guy was > trying to get it onto the lift gate and down, it listed seriously, > and I wondered if we were going to lose either the machine or one > of us! We got it down to the ground safely and wheeled it (on a > pallet jack) into my garage. > > When it came time to move it into the house, I surveyed the two > steps up from my garage to the basement with dismay. A friend came > up with the idea of using a standard appliance dolly to move it. > We secured the machine, tilted it over on the dolly's rollers and > pushed it into the house on its side. Then came the job of picking > it back up! We just could not get enough leverage to bring it up > off the floor. Finally, I grabbed a floor jack, placed it under > the spine of the dolly and angled the VAX up just close enough to > the tipping point that the two of us could bring it the rest of the > way up, without dropping it on its feet. Thank God those wonderful > DEC casters took over from there.... -- Ian That's some serious stuff right there. I've had some similar experiences. Here are some pictures and a description of my unload of two extremely heavy Sun machines, Sun Fire 6800s, can be seen here: http://www.neurotica.com/wiki/Sun_Fire_6800_Unload These machines were picked up for my employer, but I had no resources for the unload so I ended up doing it myself. It was...interesting. I ended up using 2" ratchet straps for all sorts of nefarious purposes. Here's a StorageTek Timberwolf DLT jukebox, same situation. Note that this is a BIG juke, 588 tapes: http://www.neurotica.com/wiki/StorageTek_Timberwolf_Unload And some pics and the story behind the retrieval of my IBM System/ 36 model 5360, just to keep this on-topic: http://www.neurotica.com/wiki/IBM_System/36_rescue -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 26 23:18:06 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 21:18:06 -0800 Subject: 8051, was Re: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4B5F5C0E.3595.1284594@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Jan 2010 at 19:57, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > Dumb 8051ish related question.... > > > Will 8040 code run on a '51? I have yet to find a definitive yea or > nay :( Do you mean are the codes binary-compatible? No. They bear a certain resemblance to each other in terms of programming model, but the opcodes themselves are different. For example: 04 on the 8048 is a jump 04 on the 8051 is INC A Picking another at random 97 on the 8048 is CLR C 97 on the 8051 is SUBB A, at R1 No, if you try to run unmodified 8048 code on an 8051 or vice-versa, you're going to crash and burn in short order. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 26 23:20:03 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 21:20:03 -0800 Subject: Herb Grosch In-Reply-To: <4B5FA7EF.7090805@snarc.net> References: <4B5FA7EF.7090805@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4B5F5C83.25058.12A0C3B@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Jan 2010 at 21:41, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Computer scientist Herb Grosch died today. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herb_Grosch I remember Herb venting in a CW issue about how it seemed impossible in the ACM to advance past member status. A couple of years later, he was president. I liked to read his columns. --Chuck From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 23:38:46 2010 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 16:38:46 +1100 Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <4B5F4AEE.9040007@atarimuseum.com> References: <2098608013.4903411264532848664.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <4B5F4AEE.9040007@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4b5fd165.0e0bca0a.6a16.5a63@mx.google.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Curt @ Atari Museum Sent: Wednesday, 27 January 2010 7:05 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) > In court, the judge asked Dave Morse to present the June 84 CES version > of the Amiga, Dave Morse lied on the Pardon me for being a little suspicious - especially considering Dave is now deceased and can't reply to your accusations. Lance Lyon http://www.ferriesofsydney.com http://www.savethebaragoola.com http://www.commodore128.org From jdbryan at acm.org Wed Jan 27 00:00:06 2010 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 01:00:06 -0500 Subject: RTE-A VC install screen In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e91001251402s7c0f01e8n9b8c9a27d077e096@mail.gmail.com> References: <1e1fc3e91001251402s7c0f01e8n9b8c9a27d077e096@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Monday, January 25, 2010 at 14:02, Glen Slick wrote: > I wonder what it would take to get something like the HPDrive emulator > setup for HP-IB tape drives. I have an HP A900 but no boot/install > tapes, and even if I had them I don't have any HP-IB tape drives. Caveat: to my knowledge, HPDrive has not been tested on an A-Series. It may work, though, as it's been tested extensively on the MEF-Series and on the HP 64000 logic development system. HPDrive natively supports the 9144A and 9145A cartridge tape drives. If you have an HP-IB disc drive, you should be able to add an emulated CTD using HPDrive. To emulate both a disc and a tape drive, or a disc/tape combination drive such as the 7912, you'd need two GPIB cards and two copies of HPDrive running on the host platform, as the disc and tape units each would have their own HP-IB addresses. HPDrive emulates the 7912 natively, but without the embedded tape unit, as I understand. On Tuesday, January 26, 2010 at 17:54, Rik Bos wrote: > I'm able to make a binary image of the disc, with a tool named > LIFDIAG.EXE It runs on DOS or WIN95/98 dosbox, but you need a HP > 82335A HP-IB card to place the image back on a HP-IB drive. But I think > it shoudn't be difficult to use the image with the HP-IB disc emulator. An HPDrive CS/80 disc image is a simple linear list of blocks, from block 0 to the number defined by the drive. That is, it's a block-for-block copy of a real HP-IB disc. With a GPIB card, the HPDir program can be used to make such a copy from a real disc. Or a utility program that can copy a real disc to a file can be used. One important point to note is that HPDrive images are accessed as a stream of bytes. A program, such as SIMH, that writes disc images as a stream of 16-bit integers will write them in little-endian format on some platforms (e.g., Intel). Such a SIMH image must be byte-swapped before being usable as an HPDrive image. -- Dave From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Jan 27 00:19:37 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 01:19:37 -0500 Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <4b5fd165.0e0bca0a.6a16.5a63@mx.google.com> References: <2098608013.4903411264532848664.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <4B5F4AEE.9040007@atarimuseum.com> <4b5fd165.0e0bca0a.6a16.5a63@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4B5FDAF9.7010003@atarimuseum.com> They aren't accusations, they are Dave Morse's own words, under oath in a court of law. Here a small sample of just a small piece of his testimony (I don't want to spill all of the beans, but here is some just to show that what I'm saying is fact) http://www.atarimuseum.com/computers/amiga/dmorse.pdf Curt Lance Lyon wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Curt @ Atari Museum > Sent: Wednesday, 27 January 2010 7:05 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) > > >> In court, the judge asked Dave Morse to present the June 84 CES version >> of the Amiga, Dave Morse lied on the >> > > Pardon me for being a little suspicious - especially considering Dave is now deceased and can't reply to your accusations. > > > Lance Lyon > http://www.ferriesofsydney.com > http://www.savethebaragoola.com > http://www.commodore128.org > > > > > From d_cymbal at hotmail.com Tue Jan 26 20:29:54 2010 From: d_cymbal at hotmail.com (Damien Cymbal) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 21:29:54 -0500 Subject: Seeking dump of TRS-80 Model II ROMs Message-ID: Hi folks, I am looking for a dump of the boot and character generator ROMs from a TRS-80 Model II (not Model I Level II) if anyone can help out. Thank you. From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Tue Jan 26 22:00:12 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 22:00:12 -0600 Subject: Recurring subject: Goo removal In-Reply-To: <4B5EB445.21358.1254CF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B5C45D9.1656.F97BEB@cclist.sydex.com>, <20100125190909.99530c6d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, <4B5E0A93.1000106@tx.rr.com> <4B5EB445.21358.1254CF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B5FBA4C.9030608@tx.rr.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 25 Jan 2010 at 15:18, CSquared wrote: > >>> Goo removal: Try with acetone or benzine. (petroleum aether? Don't >>> know the english word.) Be carefull with acetone. It will dissolve >>> many plastics. > >> I believe benzene is a known carcinogen. I used to use something >> called "Painter's Friend" to slightly soften the existing oil based >> enamel before applying a new coat on interior trim. It contained >> benzene, and I don't believe it is still available as a result. I was >> sorry to see it go in a way as it worked really well. Of course I'd >> rather not get cancer either... > > Once upon a time that threw me too, but benzine != benzene, as I > discovered. Benzine is naphta, but benzene == C6H6 == nasty stuff. > > Naphta here in the US is commonly found as paint thinner. I've found > that lamp oil (light triple-filtered kerosene) works a bit better and > doesn't bother plastics. Incidentally, kerosene == paraffin in the > UK, but refers to the wax here. > > English is confusing at times. > > --Chuck > Yep, that English to English translation tripped me right up! :) Thanks for the enlightenment. I think I had known about the kerosene/paraffin equivalence at one time (though I had pretty much forgotten it until you mentioned it), but I don't recall ever seeing the benzine/naphta one before. With the similarity of the names benzine and benzene I guess it's really a good thing the nasty one has been banned. (Actually I really like to "collect" the idiomatic variations in English. I think some of the UK ones like "book a table" and "ring up your friends" are really cool.) When I was a youngster, we kept a 55 gallon drum of kerosene out in the back yard. I never tried using it as a paint thinner, but I did use it to clean oil based paint out of brushes on occasion. Of course that kerosene (intended for burning in the kitchen range) was probably not as pure as the lamp oil you mention. Later, Charlie C. From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Tue Jan 26 22:44:21 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 22:44:21 -0600 Subject: Recurring subject: Goo removal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B5FC4A5.60203@tx.rr.com> Tony Duell wrote: >>> Goo removal: Try with acetone or benzine. (petroleum aether? Don't know >>> the english word.) Be carefull with acetone. It will dissolve many >>> plastics. >> I believe benzene is a known carcinogen. I used to use something called > > At least in England, Benzene |= Benzine. Benzene is C6H6, the simplest > aromatic compound. Benzine is a mixture of hyrdrocarbons, I think > obtained for the distillation of crude oil. Many thanks to you and Chuck for straightening me out on that point. > >> "Painter's Friend" to slightly soften the existing oil based enamel >> before applying a new coat on interior trim. It contained benzene, and >> I don't believe it is still available as a result. I was sorry to see >> it go in a way as it worked really well. Of course I'd rather not get >> cancer either... > > I suspect in a lot of cases the carcinogenic risk is massively > overstated. It's probably a problem if you work with the stuff all day > every day, in large quantities. It's probably much less of a problem (if > a problem at all), if you use a little from time to time. > > I've been told by somebody who darn well ought to know, for example, that > PCBs (polychorinated biphneyls, not circuit boards) probably are harmful > if you work every day on large power transformers. But the amount > contained in one high voltage capacitor is not going to kill you unless > you are really stupid with it. You're probably right, but having lost way too many friends to cancer, I guess I'm just overly cautious these days. One good friend got leukemia likely due to solvents, but he was in construction so your point is still well taken. Too, not knowing the difference in benzine and benzene at the time, I just really felt obligated to provide a bit of a warning - just in case it might save someone from a bad result. > > Anyway, smoking is almost certainly more harmful than any of these > substances i nthe quanties they are likely to be used here, and I don't > smoke so I'll take the risk in other ways... Thankfully, having never started, I never had to stop smoking, and have not had to endure much second hand smoke in quite a long time either. Sadly, one very good friend I lost to cancer was pretty obviously due to his years of smoking. > > -tony (it's a well known fact that research causes cancer in rats) > > From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Tue Jan 26 23:17:12 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 23:17:12 -0600 Subject: [personal] Shaft encoder in HP2631B printer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B5FCC58.7030404@tx.rr.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > [1] I once worked on an IR spectrometer which used a Nernst glower as the > light source. THis is a rod or coil of rare earth oxides, and you'd think > it eas a good electircal insualtor. At room temperature it is, but get it > hot, and it'll conduct (the reisstance drops with increasing temperature, > in fact it can thermally 'run away'). Anyway, the nernst glower was > connected in series wiht a ballast lamp across the mains. To get it > started you used a bit of cototn wool soaked in ethanol and ignited to > heat the glower, once it got hot, it would glow quite brightly. Of course > the advantage is that the nernst glower runs in air (it can't exaclty > oxidise, so you don't have a glass bulb to absorb any IR emission. > > The nernst lamp was actually proposed for electric lighting at one point > (with an electical heater coil to start it), the advantage being that you > don't have to have an evauated bulb, and you can just replace the glower > when it fails, not the whole lamp. But they're less efficient than vacuum > or gas-filled filament lamps for producing visible light (the golwer runs > cooler than a tnngsten filament). > > -tony I wonder if one of those Nernst glowers emits many electrons. I've had this pipe dream lately to build a triode to operate in open air, and I've been pondering what to use for a filament/cathode. Googling so far has not revealed anyone else this crazy. ;) Later, Charlie C. From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jan 27 08:10:00 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 06:10:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <4B5FDAF9.7010003@atarimuseum.com> from "Curt @ Atari Museum" at "Jan 27, 10 01:19:37 am" Message-ID: <201001271410.o0REA00s019842@floodgap.com> > Here a small sample of just a small piece of his testimony (I don't want > to spill all of the beans, but here is some just to show that what I'm > saying is fact) > > http://www.atarimuseum.com/computers/amiga/dmorse.pdf Hmmm. Mac OS X Preview doesn't like that PDF at all. It says the format is invalid. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- #include ------------------------------------------------ From als at thangorodrim.de Wed Jan 27 08:23:34 2010 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 15:23:34 +0100 Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <201001271410.o0REA00s019842@floodgap.com> References: <4B5FDAF9.7010003@atarimuseum.com> <201001271410.o0REA00s019842@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20100127142334.GA20070@sam.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 06:10:00AM -0800, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Here a small sample of just a small piece of his testimony (I don't want > > to spill all of the beans, but here is some just to show that what I'm > > saying is fact) > > > > http://www.atarimuseum.com/computers/amiga/dmorse.pdf > > Hmmm. Mac OS X Preview doesn't like that PDF at all. It says the format > is invalid. Both xpdf and acroread display it just fine. But acroread tells me that it is a 'secured document', maybe that is tripping MacOS X Preview up. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jan 27 08:33:27 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 06:33:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <20100127142334.GA20070@sam.angband.thangorodrim.de> from Alexander Schreiber at "Jan 27, 10 03:23:34 pm" Message-ID: <201001271433.o0REXR6s016724@floodgap.com> > > > Here a small sample of just a small piece of his testimony (I don't want > > > to spill all of the beans, but here is some just to show that what I'm > > > saying is fact) > > > > > > http://www.atarimuseum.com/computers/amiga/dmorse.pdf > > > > Hmmm. Mac OS X Preview doesn't like that PDF at all. It says the format > > is invalid. > > Both xpdf and acroread display it just fine. But acroread tells me that > it is a 'secured document', maybe that is tripping MacOS X Preview up. That could be. I don't know if Preview handles those. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Everything! Is my! Delusion! -- "Dead or Alive 2" -------------------------- From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Jan 27 08:45:04 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:45:04 +0000 Subject: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <4B5F87EA.5020901@jbrain.com> References: <4B5F3EF9.4090300@jbrain.com> <4B5F87EA.5020901@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4B605170.80604@philpem.me.uk> Jim Brain wrote: > According to Butterfield, Belkin ran out of the IEEE cables at some > point, which angered Jack to no end. He was not set up to produce > cables, and he didn;t like being held up by a supplier. Are you sure it wasn't Belden? I wasn't aware Belkin had been around for as long as that, nor that they ever made '488 cables -- I do, however, have a grey 5-metre Belden one hanging off the back of my PC... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Wed Jan 27 08:55:39 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 06:55:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <201001271410.o0REA00s019842@floodgap.com> References: <201001271410.o0REA00s019842@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <40437.13190.qm@web83913.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I didn't have a problem. ________________________________ From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Wed, January 27, 2010 8:10:00 AM Subject: Re: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) > Here a small sample of just a small piece of his testimony (I don't want > to spill all of the beans, but here is some just to show that what I'm > saying is fact) > > http://www.atarimuseum.com/computers/amiga/dmorse.pdf Hmmm. Mac OS X Preview doesn't like that PDF at all. It says the format is invalid. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- #include ------------------------------------------------ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jan 27 08:56:12 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 06:56:12 -0800 Subject: Code for programmer In-Reply-To: <4B5F5C83.25058.12A0C3B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B5FA7EF.7090805@snarc.net>, <4B5F5C83.25058.12A0C3B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Hi All Does anyone have code for a PC-UPROG by Advantech? Thanks Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390710/direct/01/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Jan 27 08:58:42 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:58:42 +0000 Subject: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: References: , , , Message-ID: <4B6054A2.6030405@philpem.me.uk> Dan Gahlinger wrote: > but still, that sort of trick isn't seen today. > even the manufacturers of cpus have bought into the "faster mhz is better" trick, > rather than multiprocessing. Ultimately that depends on what you're doing. If you're doing something that can be easily split across multiple CPUs (e.g. matrix maths, raytracing, some types of image processing), then a multi-core CPU beats an uber-GHz CPU almost every time (or at least has the potential to). Best case, you're looking at around (cpu_speed * number_of_cores) equivalent on a single-core CPU (less a bit for the threading code). If you're single-threading then your quad-core 3.2GHz uber-CPU is only going to work as well as a single-core chip of the same speed (although if the OS has a multithreaded kernel, it might push some of the grunt work of OS management / HW interfacing onto a spare core). Take a look at some of the fairly new "GPGPU" concepts -- nVidia's CUDA for example. A typical GTX200 class GeForce chip has ~192 cores running at 1.7GHz, and can easily run rings round most modern CPUs (within certain limitations). It's mainly intended for e.g. running the same (or a very similar) operation on a ton of input data in one go -- things like raytracing and games-style (particle engine, visual effects, etc.) algorithms tend to work well, as do brute-force password-cracking engines (!), as proven by the likes of Elcomsoft... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From dgahling at hotmail.com Wed Jan 27 09:57:09 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 10:57:09 -0500 Subject: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <4B6054A2.6030405@philpem.me.uk> References: , , , , , , , , <4B6054A2.6030405@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: I never said it wasn't coming along, or improving. But it's still a far cry from having specialized chips for various functions. ok, we've split into say 4 cores, and we have a GPU now, still, not the same. the PS3 is about the most advanced and its very hard to code for, yet that's still multiple cpu's not specialized chips dedicated to tasks. a general purpose cpu is going to be slower than a chip specialized to a task (for the same task). there will be a point were the general cpu speed gets so high it doesn't matter, however, that's an incredible waste. this is where early systems excelled, the amiga is the best example I can think of this. specialized chips for almost every function, offloaded work from the cpu. yet it still wasn't terribly difficult to code for. technology improves, but not always for the best. (OS2 was better than windows, scsi was better than IDE) the market doesn't always pick the best technology (where is beos today? for example) the list goes on and on, in the end, resulting in lists like this one. here we have a huge hobbyist following of various "dead" technologies which will never be produced again, yet they continue life, providing things many others can't. Dan. > Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:58:42 +0000 > From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > To: > Subject: Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) > > Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > but still, that sort of trick isn't seen today. > > even the manufacturers of cpus have bought into the "faster mhz is better" trick, > > rather than multiprocessing. > > Ultimately that depends on what you're doing. If you're doing something > that can be easily split across multiple CPUs (e.g. matrix maths, > raytracing, some types of image processing), then a multi-core CPU beats > an uber-GHz CPU almost every time (or at least has the potential to). > Best case, you're looking at around (cpu_speed * number_of_cores) > equivalent on a single-core CPU (less a bit for the threading code). > > If you're single-threading then your quad-core 3.2GHz uber-CPU is only > going to work as well as a single-core chip of the same speed (although > if the OS has a multithreaded kernel, it might push some of the grunt > work of OS management / HW interfacing onto a spare core). > > Take a look at some of the fairly new "GPGPU" concepts -- nVidia's CUDA > for example. A typical GTX200 class GeForce chip has ~192 cores running > at 1.7GHz, and can easily run rings round most modern CPUs (within > certain limitations). It's mainly intended for e.g. running the same (or > a very similar) operation on a ton of input data in one go -- things > like raytracing and games-style (particle engine, visual effects, etc.) > algorithms tend to work well, as do brute-force password-cracking > engines (!), as proven by the likes of Elcomsoft... > > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ _________________________________________________________________ Reinvent how you stay in touch with the new Windows Live Messenger. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9706116 From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Jan 27 10:00:58 2010 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 08:00:58 -0800 Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <201001271410.o0REA00s019842@floodgap.com> References: <201001271410.o0REA00s019842@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <2E0F39F2-F5CC-4129-ABFF-93CEF13ED7CD@shiresoft.com> On Jan 27, 2010, at 6:10 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Here a small sample of just a small piece of his testimony (I don't want >> to spill all of the beans, but here is some just to show that what I'm >> saying is fact) >> >> http://www.atarimuseum.com/computers/amiga/dmorse.pdf > > Hmmm. Mac OS X Preview doesn't like that PDF at all. It says the format > is invalid. What version of OS X? 10.6.2 seems quite happy with it. TTFN - Guy From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jan 27 10:03:25 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 08:03:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <2E0F39F2-F5CC-4129-ABFF-93CEF13ED7CD@shiresoft.com> from Guy Sotomayor at "Jan 27, 10 08:00:58 am" Message-ID: <201001271603.o0RG3Pvn018230@floodgap.com> > > Hmmm. Mac OS X Preview doesn't like that PDF at all. It says the format > > is invalid. > > What version of OS X? 10.6.2 seems quite happy with it. 10.4.11. I guess the writing is on the wall, isn't it? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If there was a hole, I would jump into it. -- Gackt Camui ------------------ From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 27 10:44:29 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 11:44:29 -0500 Subject: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: References: , , , , , , , , <4B6054A2.6030405@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4FD87621-8AAC-4B1D-8C80-8388570D6F01@neurotica.com> On Jan 27, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > technology improves, but not always for the best. (OS2 was better > than windows, scsi was better than IDE) Well to be fair, IDE didn't exactly replace SCSI. ;) And, interestingly, it's starting to look like SCSI drives will still be produced after IDE drives are no longer being made. > the market doesn't always pick the best technology (where is beos > today? for example) Ok, here's where I have to ask. Why does everyone get all excited about BeOS? I ran it for a while and I thought it was a pile of crap. What was so great about it, from your point of view? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Jan 27 10:45:23 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 17:45:23 +0100 Subject: Recurring subject: Goo removal In-Reply-To: References: <4B5E0A93.1000106@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20100127174523.04617af8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 18:24:23 +0000 (GMT) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Benzine is a mixture of hyrdrocarbons, I think > obtained for the distillation of crude oil. Yes. Actually fuel / gas / gasoline / petrol (The stuff that you fill into your car at the gas station.) is called "Benzin" in german. (I think Diesel is called Diesel everywhere.) The stuff that you use for cleaning is called "washing benzine" (word to word translation) in german. It is a lighter fraction of crude oil then gasoline. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 27 10:55:08 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 08:55:08 -0800 Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <201001271603.o0RG3Pvn018230@floodgap.com> References: <201001271603.o0RG3Pvn018230@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4B606FEC.7060709@bitsavers.org> On 1/27/10 8:03 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> Hmmm. Mac OS X Preview doesn't like that PDF at all. It says the format >>> is invalid. >> >> What version of OS X? 10.6.2 seems quite happy with it. > > 10.4.11. I guess the writing is on the wall, isn't it? > works on 4.2 (469.5) of Preview under 10.5.8 (PPC) From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jan 27 11:07:03 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 09:07:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <4FD87621-8AAC-4B1D-8C80-8388570D6F01@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Jan 27, 10 11:44:29 am" Message-ID: <201001271707.o0RH73m5018172@floodgap.com> > > the market doesn't always pick the best technology (where is beos > > today? for example) > > Ok, here's where I have to ask. Why does everyone get all excited > about BeOS? I ran it for a while and I thought it was a pile of > crap. What was so great about it, from your point of view? I like BeOS, but part of that is due to the fact I adore the BeBox (tip of the hat to Doc). I'm going to port Classilla to it as soon as I get it stabilized on Mac OS 9. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Perl: the only language that makes Welsh look acceptable. -- David Cantrell From wgungfu at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 02:23:55 2010 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 02:23:55 -0600 Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <4B5FDAF9.7010003@atarimuseum.com> References: <2098608013.4903411264532848664.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <4B5F4AEE.9040007@atarimuseum.com> <4b5fd165.0e0bca0a.6a16.5a63@mx.google.com> <4B5FDAF9.7010003@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <2c768b1e1001270023m47d2c30ctd291099ad023997f@mail.gmail.com> As Curt mentioned, Dave lied on the stand and stated the Lorraine shown off was broken up and could not be produced in court. The very same one that gets shown off at VCF East now. Marty On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 12:19 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > They aren't accusations, they are Dave Morse's own words, under oath in a > court of law. > > Here a small sample of just a small piece of his testimony (I don't want to > spill all of the beans, but here is some just to show that what I'm saying > is fact) > > http://www.atarimuseum.com/computers/amiga/dmorse.pdf > > > Curt > > > > > Lance Lyon wrote: >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >> On Behalf Of Curt @ Atari Museum >> Sent: Wednesday, 27 January 2010 7:05 AM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was >> Re: Editor religious wars) >> >> >>> >>> In court, the judge asked Dave Morse to present the June 84 CES version >>> of the Amiga, Dave Morse lied on the >> >> Pardon me for being a little suspicious - especially considering Dave is >> now deceased and can't reply to your accusations. >> >> >> Lance Lyon >> http://www.ferriesofsydney.com >> http://www.savethebaragoola.com >> http://www.commodore128.org >> >> >> >> >> > From wgungfu at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 02:34:27 2010 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 02:34:27 -0600 Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <4B5F4AEE.9040007@atarimuseum.com> References: <2098608013.4903411264532848664.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <4B5F4AEE.9040007@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <2c768b1e1001270034r35efea67g2be76f449d612f2f@mail.gmail.com> > Dan Roganti wrote: > > Too bad Atari lost out on this, I think they deserved to build this, but > you know how shifty Tramiel was :) > > =Dan > -- > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ > You must be going by RJ Mical's misinformation. Jack Tramiel had nothing to do with the Amiga, that was Warner Atari Inc. as Curt mentioned. Tramiel discovered about the previous Warner/Atari Inc./Amiga deal *after* taking over the Atari Inc. assets and forming Atari Corp., when his son Leonard discovered the cashed Warner Atari Inc. check during the project freeze and asset evaluation at the end of July. Commodore had already filed against Shiraz and several other ex-Commodore engineers in early July, getting injunctions against them working on any computers for Jack. Warner still owned the Amiga contract (i.e. it was not part of the deal with Jack) so he got it signed over to him and used it to file a suit against Amiga in mid August as a counter to Commodore. There was never any computer under Jack that was supposed to use Amiga hardware. Marty From amigansoftware at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 08:33:48 2010 From: amigansoftware at gmail.com (James Jacobs) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 01:33:48 +1100 Subject: Yet more books, free for cost of shipping from Austin, TX Message-ID: <96a75b0f1001270633j14a02c83vae05a2a70d950ae6@mail.gmail.com> >The Instructor 50 Desktop Computer User's Guide >Signetics, 1978, 300 pages? >Introduction to the Instructor 50 Desktop Computer >Signetics, 1978, 120 pages? I'm interested in these two, as I am the programmer of the world's only emulator (WinArcadia) of this trainer and it would be invaluable for improving the compatibility. Many thanks James Jacobs Canberra, Australia From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Jan 27 11:26:20 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 18:26:20 +0100 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <66AD9588-0F02-4A9E-AA57-1C72D75D604B@neurotica.com> References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CB46956-1778-4478-A932-3899AA67D392@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e1001261032j47a9fe7ak6b78b93b752f8b3c@mail.gmail.com> <66AD9588-0F02-4A9E-AA57-1C72D75D604B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20100127182620.2e2a455c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:41:45 -0500 Dave McGuire wrote: > Keep in mind, every USB host controller is an 8051 ??? Please elaborate. Or do you mean the PeeCee PS/2 keyboard controller emulation for USB keyboards? This is not done by the USB host controller. (AFAIK) \begin{troll} BTW: 8051 is bullshit. I did one project with 8051. Never again. Then came the light of Atmel AVR... (This was over 10 years ago and so is on topic. ;-) ) AVR is my religion! We can mix PIC (also bullshit) or 68HC11 (never worked with it, but looks nice) into this too. ;-) \end{troll} -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From evan at snarc.net Wed Jan 27 11:27:44 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 12:27:44 -0500 Subject: OT: RIM/MSFT developers needed for Haiti relief efforts Message-ID: <4B607790.1000303@snarc.net> Got this email from my boss. It's off-topic here, but perhaps some cctalk'rs can help: ------------------------- http://www.CrisisCommons.org is looking for app developers with BlackBerry and WinMo experience to help build mobile tools for NGOs and others on the ground in Haiti. Learn about this and other inspiring efforts to restore communications in the earthquake devastated here: http://bit.ly/bWtUFG From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Jan 27 11:31:39 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 18:31:39 +0100 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <4B5F3BDA.1030006@bluewin.ch> References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CB46956-1778-4478-A932-3899AA67D392@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e1001261032j47a9fe7ak6b78b93b752f8b3c@mail.gmail.com> <66AD9588-0F02-4A9E-AA57-1C72D75D604B@neurotica.com> <4B5F3BDA.1030006@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <20100127183139.29459eb8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 20:00:42 +0100 Jos Dreesen wrote: > ARM's are in almost every cellphone, not just the highend. > They are used as the processor core in most baseband chips, together > with a DSP. You can add GPS receivers to this. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 27 11:38:00 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 12:38:00 -0500 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <20100127182620.2e2a455c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CB46956-1778-4478-A932-3899AA67D392@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e1001261032j47a9fe7ak6b78b93b752f8b3c@mail.gmail.com> <66AD9588-0F02-4A9E-AA57-1C72D75D604B@neurotica.com> <20100127182620.2e2a455c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Jan 27, 2010, at 12:26 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: >> Keep in mind, every USB host controller is an 8051 > ??? Please elaborate. Standard USB host controllers are (unless this has changed recently) based on an 8051 core. Very deeply embedded, sure, but that's kinda the point. ;) As I understand it, the very first prototype implementations were discrete-chip 8051s, but probably of some more modern incarnation, and that basic design hasn't had any reason to change. > Or do you mean the PeeCee PS/2 keyboard controller emulation for USB > keyboards? This is not done by the USB host controller. (AFAIK) No, the host controller itself. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 27 11:48:49 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 09:48:49 -0800 Subject: Recurring subject: Goo removal In-Reply-To: <20100127174523.04617af8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4B5E0A93.1000106@tx.rr.com>, , <20100127174523.04617af8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4B600C01.3930.3D3678@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Jan 2010 at 17:45, Jochen Kunz wrote: > Yes. Actually fuel / gas / gasoline / petrol (The stuff that you fill > into your car at the gas station.) is called "Benzin" in german. (I > think Diesel is called Diesel everywhere.) The stuff that you use for > cleaning is called "washing benzine" (word to word translation) in > german. It is a lighter fraction of crude oil then gasoline. -- Otherwise known as "white gas" here in the U.S., or--wait for it-- Coleman Stove fuel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_gas Which is where we started. It's not bad, but I had better results with lamp oil/kerosene/paraffin oil. --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 11:47:40 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 15:47:40 -0200 Subject: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) References: , , , , , , , , <4B6054A2.6030405@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <24dc01ca9f7a$45f39be0$0101a8c0@Alexandre> >this is where early systems excelled, the amiga is the best example I can >think of this. >specialized chips for almost every function, offloaded work from the cpu. >yet it still wasn't terribly difficult to code for. This is something of a lie, because things yesterday were WAY easier. Less code, less memory, less graphics, less everything. Every aspect of a PS3 game is many orders of magnitude more complicated and bigger than anything made before! From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jan 27 11:58:48 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 11:58:48 -0600 Subject: Recurring subject: Goo removal In-Reply-To: <4B600C01.3930.3D3678@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B5E0A93.1000106@tx.rr.com> <20100127174523.04617af8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4B600C01.3930.3D3678@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201001271759.o0RHxgAB025148@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 11:48 AM 1/27/2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 27 Jan 2010 at 17:45, Jochen Kunz wrote: >> Yes. Actually fuel / gas / gasoline / petrol (The stuff that you fill >> into your car at the gas station.) is called "Benzin" in german. (I >> think Diesel is called Diesel everywhere.) The stuff that you use for >> cleaning is called "washing benzine" (word to word translation) in >> german. It is a lighter fraction of crude oil then gasoline. -- > >Otherwise known as "white gas" here in the U.S., or--wait for it-- >Coleman Stove fuel: > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_gas > >Which is where we started. It's not bad, but I had better results >with lamp oil/kerosene/paraffin oil. Speaking of washing, all this talk of naptha made me think of Fels-Naptha soap, which I was surprised to learn contains Stoddard solvent. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fels-Naptha At http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naptha , there's a picture of Coleman camp fuel. - John From ragooman at comcast.net Wed Jan 27 11:59:52 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 17:59:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <2c768b1e1001270034r35efea67g2be76f449d612f2f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <318622156.223381264615192647.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> ----- Martin Goldberg wrote: > > Dan Roganti wrote: > > > > Too bad Atari lost out on this, I think they deserved to build this, but > > you know how shifty Tramiel was :) > > > > =Dan > > -- > > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ > > > > > You must be going by RJ Mical's misinformation. Jack Tramiel had > nothing to do with the Amiga, that was Warner Atari Inc. as Curt > mentioned. I'm not referring to any timeline. I was only saying how Tramiel has a reputation ignoring engineering advice. He has a lot of cost cutting tactics as a businessman - some good, but also some bad = such as slashing valuable personal in the engineering staff. Although I feel Atari lost out, I would shudder to think what Tramiel might have done afterwards to Jay Miner's design just to make it cheaper, that's his MO ( I know this is hindsight). He may be famous for the early Commodore success, but Commodore was still successful without him--thanks to engineers. If he was so remarkable, how is it that the Atari ST was just a mediocre design ( I know this just another religious war - but open your eyes for a minute). Thankfully, we were privileged to see Jay Miner's achievement as Commodore succeeded without a hatchet job on his design. =Dan http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Jan 27 12:04:30 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 18:04:30 +0000 Subject: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <4FD87621-8AAC-4B1D-8C80-8388570D6F01@neurotica.com> References: , , , , , , , , <4B6054A2.6030405@philpem.me.uk> <4FD87621-8AAC-4B1D-8C80-8388570D6F01@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B60802E.5010308@philpem.me.uk> Dave McGuire wrote: > Well to be fair, IDE didn't exactly replace SCSI. ;) And, > interestingly, it's starting to look like SCSI drives will still be > produced after IDE drives are no longer being made. Also bear in mind -- the USB Mass Storage protocol stack is essentially a USB wrapper for the SCSI command set. SCSI is going to leave its mark for a long time to come. Heck, ATAPI (usually used for CD/DVD drive interfacing) is basically "SCSI over ATA"... SATA is PATA-over-serial-link, so I guess that makes ATAPI+SATA SCSI-over-PATA-over-serial-link. Layers, so many layers... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 27 12:12:19 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 10:12:19 -0800 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com>, <20100127182620.2e2a455c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, Message-ID: <4B601183.9168.52B72B@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Jan 2010 at 12:38, Dave McGuire wrote: > Standard USB host controllers are (unless this has changed > recently) based on an 8051 core. Very deeply embedded, sure, but > that's kinda the point. ;) As I understand it, the very first > prototype implementations were discrete-chip 8051s, but probably of > some more modern incarnation, and that basic design hasn't had any > reason to change. To some extent, that may still be true for the devices themselves. I've still got a bunch of USB peripherals with Intel N82930A3 chips on them, which, I believe is nothing more than a specially-configured 8051. --Chuck From brain at jbrain.com Wed Jan 27 12:37:37 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 12:37:37 -0600 Subject: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <4B605170.80604@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B5F3EF9.4090300@jbrain.com> <4B5F87EA.5020901@jbrain.com> <4B605170.80604@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4B6087F1.80508@jbrain.com> On 1/27/2010 8:45 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Jim Brain wrote: >> According to Butterfield, Belkin ran out of the IEEE cables at some >> point, which angered Jack to no end. He was not set up to produce >> cables, and he didn;t like being held up by a supplier. > > Are you sure it wasn't Belden? > > I wasn't aware Belkin had been around for as long as that, nor that > they ever made '488 cables -- I do, however, have a grey 5-metre > Belden one hanging off the back of my PC... > Most likely. I have Belkin on the brain for some reason. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From brain at jbrain.com Wed Jan 27 12:56:25 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 12:56:25 -0600 Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <318622156.223381264615192647.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> References: <318622156.223381264615192647.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4B608C59.8010002@jbrain.com> On 1/27/2010 11:59 AM, Dan Roganti wrote: > > I'm not referring to any timeline. I was only saying how Tramiel has a reputation ignoring engineering advice. He has a lot of cost cutting tactics as a businessman - some good, but also some bad = such as slashing valuable personal in the engineering staff. Although I feel Atari lost out, I would shudder to think what Tramiel might have done afterwards to Jay Miner's design just to make it cheaper, that's his MO ( I know this is hindsight). He may be famous for the early Commodore success, but Commodore was still successful without him--thanks to engineers. If he was so remarkable, how is it that the Atari ST was just a mediocre design ( I know this just another religious war - but open your eyes for a minute). Thankfully, we were privileged to see Jay Miner's achievement as Commodore succeeded without a hatchet job on his design. I would wholeheartedly agree with this. I think it would have come down to whether the fab Atari used being able to produce the OCS chipset cheaper than the ST reference implementation. If not, then I think Jack would have buried it, or maybe cherry picked some features that were most doable.cost effective. Note, though, that CBM did some major reworking of the Lorraine design before it ended. As I recall, the initial box was mostly a game machine, and CBM moved it from that spot. Not sure what was worse, though. CBM had the engineering chops, but Marketing and Management was a true Achilles Heel. Atari must have had better Marketing/Management (The ST was an uninspiring product, but it sold very well, in my opinion). It's a shame the two companies didn't find a way to merge when the chips were down. I could be entirely wrong. Although I tracked the Amiga as a good Commodore fanboi (I remember buying AmigaWorld from Issue #1 on, even though I did not have an Amiga), Commodore's Marketing just drove a number of us 8-bitters away. I think Apple did the same thing with the Mac introduction, but they are still around, so I guess it made more sense there. As aresult, my Amiga knowledge is sparse. Jim From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Jan 27 13:05:55 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 20:05:55 +0100 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CB46956-1778-4478-A932-3899AA67D392@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e1001261032j47a9fe7ak6b78b93b752f8b3c@mail.gmail.com> <66AD9588-0F02-4A9E-AA57-1C72D75D604B@neurotica.com> <20100127182620.2e2a455c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20100127200555.6bd55559.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 12:38:00 -0500 Dave McGuire wrote: > Standard USB host controllers are (unless this has changed > recently) based on an 8051 core. You mean UHCI? (As UHCI == intel & VIA. Everything else is OHCI.) Well. Why not? There are gigabit Ethernet controllers with dual MIPS R4000 cores inside... (Broadcom BCM570x) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From dgahling at hotmail.com Wed Jan 27 13:11:24 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:11:24 -0500 Subject: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <24dc01ca9f7a$45f39be0$0101a8c0@Alexandre> References: , ,,, ,,, , , , , , , <4B6054A2.6030405@philpem.me.uk>, , <24dc01ca9f7a$45f39be0$0101a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: thats more of a lie. and it was not a lie. it's an unfair comparison. If you load up an amiga game today, sure, maybe it can't compete with the movie-scene cut-scenes of todays games, or 3d or whatever. but a lot of them hold their own. its a fact that a specialized chip dedicated to a task will do that task better than a general purpose cpu trying to do the same task. again, I mentioned, there is a receding line of performance gains as the general purpose cpu speed goes up, but I think it's a very long line. Babylon 5 was done entirely on amigas, that's not a small feat, so what you say isn't entirely true. the complexity is available, the ability is there, to an extent. that being said, there are c64 games that to this day look better and play better than modern games. there's just a certain look and feel to them. Dan. > From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) > Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 15:47:40 -0200 > > >this is where early systems excelled, the amiga is the best example I can > >think of this. > >specialized chips for almost every function, offloaded work from the cpu. > >yet it still wasn't terribly difficult to code for. > > This is something of a lie, because things yesterday were WAY easier. > Less code, less memory, less graphics, less everything. Every aspect of a > PS3 game is many orders of magnitude more complicated and bigger than > anything made before! > _________________________________________________________________ From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Wed Jan 27 13:26:36 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 11:26:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <4B601183.9168.52B72B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com>, <20100127182620.2e2a455c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, <4B601183.9168.52B72B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <124047.25648.qm@web83904.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> All this beating up on the 8051. They are actually a fairly capable chip. We used them quite extensively in my work. ________________________________ From: Chuck Guzis To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wed, January 27, 2010 12:12:19 PM Subject: Re: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) On 27 Jan 2010 at 12:38, Dave McGuire wrote: > Standard USB host controllers are (unless this has changed > recently) based on an 8051 core. Very deeply embedded, sure, but > that's kinda the point. ;) As I understand it, the very first > prototype implementations were discrete-chip 8051s, but probably of > some more modern incarnation, and that basic design hasn't had any > reason to change. To some extent, that may still be true for the devices themselves. I've still got a bunch of USB peripherals with Intel N82930A3 chips on them, which, I believe is nothing more than a specially-configured 8051. --Chuck From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Wed Jan 27 13:29:08 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 11:29:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <318622156.223381264615192647.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> References: <318622156.223381264615192647.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <939437.78329.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> These are good points. I think that a lot of Commodore's successes were despite Tramiels' involvement, rather than because of it. The accounts of the design of the SID and VIC-II in particular seem to point to this, and as you say, he ultimately drove that talent away from the company. ________________________________ From: Dan Roganti To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wed, January 27, 2010 11:59:52 AM Subject: Re: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) ----- Martin Goldberg wrote: > > Dan Roganti wrote: > > > > Too bad Atari lost out on this, I think they deserved to build this, but > > you know how shifty Tramiel was :) > > > > =Dan > > -- > > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ > > > > > You must be going by RJ Mical's misinformation. Jack Tramiel had > nothing to do with the Amiga, that was Warner Atari Inc. as Curt > mentioned. I'm not referring to any timeline. I was only saying how Tramiel has a reputation ignoring engineering advice. He has a lot of cost cutting tactics as a businessman - some good, but also some bad = such as slashing valuable personal in the engineering staff. Although I feel Atari lost out, I would shudder to think what Tramiel might have done afterwards to Jay Miner's design just to make it cheaper, that's his MO ( I know this is hindsight). He may be famous for the early Commodore success, but Commodore was still successful without him--thanks to engineers. If he was so remarkable, how is it that the Atari ST was just a mediocre design ( I know this just another religious war - but open your eyes for a minute). Thankfully, we were privileged to see Jay Miner's achievement as Commodore succeeded without a hatchet job on his design. =Dan http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 27 13:42:52 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:42:52 -0500 Subject: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <24dc01ca9f7a$45f39be0$0101a8c0@Alexandre> References: , , , , , , , , <4B6054A2.6030405@philpem.me.uk> <24dc01ca9f7a$45f39be0$0101a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <0420FF07-B25C-4886-B6AE-95FE552DE61C@neurotica.com> On Jan 27, 2010, at 12:47 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> this is where early systems excelled, the amiga is the best >> example I can think of this. >> specialized chips for almost every function, offloaded work from >> the cpu. >> yet it still wasn't terribly difficult to code for. > > This is something of a lie, because things yesterday were WAY > easier. Less code, less memory, less graphics, less everything. > Every aspect of a PS3 game is many orders of magnitude more > complicated and bigger than anything made before! That increase in complexity hasn't really changed the ease of programming for decentralized systems much. We've *sorta* moved back in that direction with GPUs, hardware RAID controllers, IP-offloading network controllers, etc, but they (especially the latter two) are usually only found in very high-end systems. Programming them isn't really any more difficult, and in some ways it's actually quite a bit easier. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Jan 27 13:42:49 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:42:49 -0500 Subject: Atari/Commodore discussion In-Reply-To: <939437.78329.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <318622156.223381264615192647.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <939437.78329.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B609739.4030609@atarimuseum.com> I agree... Same with Atari - the design of the Atari 2600, not managements handling of it was what made it such a success. The Atari 800 computer and it is chip architecture, again, is what made is such an incredible computer, management had nothing to do with it, in fact, when you look at Warner-Atari handling of the company, they crippled Atari's efforts at making the home computers more serious in features, software and peripherals, on the video gaming side, more capable designs were created, but infighting caused Atari to pull back the reigns for fear that the game systems might conflict with the home computers. Atari stupidly went after cost reducing and price lowering their computers instead of dropping their low end computer - the Atari 400, making the Atari 800 the low end computer and then coming out with a higher end system (perhaps 80 columns, more memory and maybe in a different package with professional detachable keyboard) and then clearing the low end area to allow the video games - even an advanced system, to occupy and then there wouldn't have been overlap or conflict. Its the products, not necessarily the management that make them successful for the most part. Curt geoffrey oltmans wrote: > These are good points. I think that a lot of Commodore's successes were despite Tramiels' involvement, rather than because of it. The accounts of the design of the SID and VIC-II in particular seem to point to this, and as you say, he ultimately drove that talent away from the company. > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Dan Roganti > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Sent: Wed, January 27, 2010 11:59:52 AM > Subject: Re: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) > > > > ----- Martin Goldberg wrote: > >>> Dan Roganti wrote: >>> >>> Too bad Atari lost out on this, I think they deserved to build this, but >>> you know how shifty Tramiel was :) >>> >>> =Dan >>> -- >>> http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ >>> >>> >> You must be going by RJ Mical's misinformation. Jack Tramiel had >> nothing to do with the Amiga, that was Warner Atari Inc. as Curt >> mentioned. >> > > I'm not referring to any timeline. I was only saying how Tramiel has a reputation ignoring engineering advice. He has a lot of cost cutting tactics as a businessman - some good, but also some bad = such as slashing valuable personal in the engineering staff. Although I feel Atari lost out, I would shudder to think what Tramiel might have done afterwards to Jay Miner's design just to make it cheaper, that's his MO ( I know this is hindsight). He may be famous for the early Commodore success, but Commodore was still successful without him--thanks to engineers. If he was so remarkable, how is it that the Atari ST was just a mediocre design ( I know this just another religious war - but open your eyes for a minute). Thankfully, we were privileged to see Jay Miner's achievement as Commodore succeeded without a hatchet job on his design. > > =Dan > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 27 13:48:09 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:48:09 -0500 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <124047.25648.qm@web83904.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com>, <20100127182620.2e2a455c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, <4B601183.9168.52B72B@cclist.sydex.com> <124047.25648.qm@web83904.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <38718AAF-8847-4F44-B588-5B327F9CB162@neurotica.com> Actually there hasn't been much beating up going on. -Dave On Jan 27, 2010, at 2:26 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > All this beating up on the 8051. They are actually a fairly capable > chip. We used them quite extensively in my work. > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Chuck Guzis > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Sent: Wed, January 27, 2010 12:12:19 PM > Subject: Re: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) > > On 27 Jan 2010 at 12:38, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> Standard USB host controllers are (unless this has changed >> recently) based on an 8051 core. Very deeply embedded, sure, but >> that's kinda the point. ;) As I understand it, the very first >> prototype implementations were discrete-chip 8051s, but probably of >> some more modern incarnation, and that basic design hasn't had any >> reason to change. > > To some extent, that may still be true for the devices themselves. > I've still got a bunch of USB peripherals with Intel N82930A3 chips > on them, which, I believe is nothing more than a specially-configured > 8051. > > --Chuck -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Wed Jan 27 13:55:23 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 11:55:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <38718AAF-8847-4F44-B588-5B327F9CB162@neurotica.com> References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com>, <20100127182620.2e2a455c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, <4B601183.9168.52B72B@cclist.sydex.com> <124047.25648.qm@web83904.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <38718AAF-8847-4F44-B588-5B327F9CB162@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <930259.72380.qm@web83914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I know... certainly not by you. :) They take some finesse to program, but they do have several features that are beneficial in such a small MCU. ________________________________ From: Dave McGuire To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wed, January 27, 2010 1:48:09 PM Subject: Re: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) Actually there hasn't been much beating up going on. -Dave On Jan 27, 2010, at 2:26 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > All this beating up on the 8051. They are actually a fairly capable chip. We used them quite extensively in my work. > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Chuck Guzis > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Sent: Wed, January 27, 2010 12:12:19 PM > Subject: Re: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) > > On 27 Jan 2010 at 12:38, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> Standard USB host controllers are (unless this has changed >> recently) based on an 8051 core. Very deeply embedded, sure, but >> that's kinda the point. ;) As I understand it, the very first >> prototype implementations were discrete-chip 8051s, but probably of >> some more modern incarnation, and that basic design hasn't had any >> reason to change. > > To some extent, that may still be true for the devices themselves. > I've still got a bunch of USB peripherals with Intel N82930A3 chips > on them, which, I believe is nothing more than a specially-configured > 8051. > > --Chuck --Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Wed Jan 27 14:09:14 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 12:09:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Atari/Commodore discussion In-Reply-To: <4B609739.4030609@atarimuseum.com> References: <318622156.223381264615192647.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <939437.78329.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B609739.4030609@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <924090.63843.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I don't want to completely discount Tramiel's involvement... I think probably the single biggest thing that he did to help Commodore was to vertically scale the company so that their designs relied little on third party suppliers. It probably didn't hurt that they had their own then state of the art chip fab. I think it's clear from eyewitness accounts (and indeed his own words) that he didn't completely understand the computer business. In fact, I think it's fair to say that a lot of other people in the home computer segment really didn't get it either. In the end it seems that, CP/M notwithstanding, Apple is the only company that in the end built a truly upwardly scaleable 8-bit system. But, they also sold a lot less of the whole Apple II line than Commodore did the C-64. ________________________________ From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wed, January 27, 2010 1:42:49 PM Subject: Re: Atari/Commodore discussion I agree... Same with Atari - the design of the Atari 2600, not managements handling of it was what made it such a success. The Atari 800 computer and it is chip architecture, again, is what made is such an incredible computer, management had nothing to do with it, in fact, when you look at Warner-Atari handling of the company, they crippled Atari's efforts at making the home computers more serious in features, software and peripherals, on the video gaming side, more capable designs were created, but infighting caused Atari to pull back the reigns for fear that the game systems might conflict with the home computers. Atari stupidly went after cost reducing and price lowering their computers instead of dropping their low end computer - the Atari 400, making the Atari 800 the low end computer and then coming out with a higher end system (perhaps 80 columns, more memory and maybe in a different package with professional detachable keyboard) and then clearing the low end area to allow the video games - even an advanced system, to occupy and then there wouldn't have been overlap or conflict. Its the products, not necessarily the management that make them successful for the most part. Curt geoffrey oltmans wrote: > These are good points. I think that a lot of Commodore's successes were despite Tramiels' involvement, rather than because of it. The accounts of the design of the SID and VIC-II in particular seem to point to this, and as you say, he ultimately drove that talent away from the company. > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Dan Roganti > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Sent: Wed, January 27, 2010 11:59:52 AM > Subject: Re: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) > > > > ----- Martin Goldberg wrote: > >>> Dan Roganti wrote: >>> >>> Too bad Atari lost out on this, I think they deserved to build this, but >>> you know how shifty Tramiel was :) >>> >>> =Dan >>> -- >>> http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ >>> >>> >> You must be going by RJ Mical's misinformation. Jack Tramiel had >> nothing to do with the Amiga, that was Warner Atari Inc. as Curt >> mentioned. > > I'm not referring to any timeline. I was only saying how Tramiel has a reputation ignoring engineering advice. He has a lot of cost cutting tactics as a businessman - some good, but also some bad = such as slashing valuable personal in the engineering staff. Although I feel Atari lost out, I would shudder to think what Tramiel might have done afterwards to Jay Miner's design just to make it cheaper, that's his MO ( I know this is hindsight). He may be famous for the early Commodore success, but Commodore was still successful without him--thanks to engineers. If he was so remarkable, how is it that the Atari ST was just a mediocre design ( I know this just another religious war - but open your eyes for a minute). Thankfully, we were privileged to see Jay Miner's achievement as Commodore succeeded without a hatchet job on his design. > > =Dan > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ > > From doc at vaxen.net Wed Jan 27 14:16:22 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:16:22 -0600 Subject: Sort of On-Topic? Message-ID: <4B609F16.6090707@vaxen.net> http://www.elizium.nu/scripts/lemmings/ Yes, exactly what the URL implies. Doc From ragooman at comcast.net Wed Jan 27 14:17:23 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 20:17:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <4B608C59.8010002@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <20577972.301851264623443779.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> ----- Jim Brain wrote: > On 1/27/2010 11:59 AM, Dan Roganti wrote: > Note, though, that CBM did some major reworking of the Lorraine design > before it ended. As I recall, the initial box was mostly a game > machine, and CBM moved it from that spot. > >From what I've read (there's several stories), the Warner mgmnt were becoming nervous with the downturn in home video console market of the early 80 's and politely suggested to Jay Miner about turning this into a home computer. I understood that he was actually thrilled with the idea because he had purposely -- and perhaps covertly considering the new mgmnt -- morphed the design into a personal computer rather than a home video console. I think CBM[?] came up with the packageing/enclosure design - not sure what additional design was added. =Dan -- http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From vern4wright at yahoo.com Wed Jan 27 14:18:40 2010 From: vern4wright at yahoo.com (Vernon Wright) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 12:18:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Herb Grosch In-Reply-To: <4B5FA7EF.7090805@snarc.net> Message-ID: <833712.44162.qm@web65513.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Thanks for the heads-up. It's been so many years since I last saw Herb but I recall him well. His columns in Datamation were of inestimable value; his ComputerWorld columns of constant value. His self-deprecating sense of humor (while he truly thought himself the world's brightest man) a constant joy. I have forgotten how many times he was hired and fired by IBM, but I think he held the record. Keep them on their toes, wherever you go, Herb. Vern Wright --- On Tue, 1/26/10, Evan Koblentz wrote: > From: Evan Koblentz > Subject: Herb Grosch > To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Tuesday, January 26, 2010, 6:41 PM > Computer scientist Herb Grosch died > today. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herb_Grosch > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 14:44:12 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 15:44:12 -0500 Subject: Sort of On-Topic? In-Reply-To: <4B609F16.6090707@vaxen.net> References: <4B609F16.6090707@vaxen.net> Message-ID: On 1/27/10, Doc Shipley wrote: > > http://www.elizium.nu/scripts/lemmings/ > > Yes, exactly what the URL implies. Pretty cool - of course what struck me was that their own recommendation is to play on a 500Mhz+ i386 machine a game that coded natively (vs scripted) plays smoothly on a 7.16MHz 68000. That's a lot of overhead. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 27 14:47:38 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 15:47:38 -0500 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <930259.72380.qm@web83914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com>, <20100127182620.2e2a455c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, <4B601183.9168.52B72B@cclist.sydex.com> <124047.25648.qm@web83904.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <38718AAF-8847-4F44-B588-5B327F9CB162@neurotica.com> <930259.72380.qm@web83914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jan 27, 2010, at 2:55 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > I know... certainly not by you. :) Well I didn't see much 8051-bashing going on by anyone. One or two negative comments, that's all. > They take some finesse to program, but they do have several > features that are beneficial in such a small MCU. I agree. It does take a while to get used to the architecture, but once you do, and remember to stay within the limits of the tool, it's fantastic for control applications. I've used them in bunches of things both at home and at work, and I'm sure I'll continue to do so. I'm totally crazy about the Philips...erm, NXP LPC2xxx ARM MCUs for bigger applications, though. Man what nice chips they are! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 27 14:02:42 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 20:02:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 8051, was Re: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: from "Geoffrey Reed" at Jan 26, 10 07:57:48 pm Message-ID: > > Dumb 8051ish related question.... > > > Will 8040 code run on a '51? I have yet to find a definitive yea or nay :( No. THe 8040 is the ROMless 8050 IIRC. it's related to the 8035/8039/8048/8049 too. It's a different instruction set from the 8051 family. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 27 14:08:41 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 20:08:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [personal] Shaft encoder in HP2631B printer In-Reply-To: <4B5FCC58.7030404@tx.rr.com> from "CSquared" at Jan 26, 10 11:17:12 pm Message-ID: > I wonder if one of those Nernst glowers emits many electrons. I've had > this pipe dream lately to build a triode to operate in open air, and > I've been pondering what to use for a filament/cathode. Googling so far > has not revealed anyone else this crazy. ;) You are going to have problems. The mean free path of an electron in air at atmospheric pressure is pretty short (I forget how short, but it can be looked up). You need to have the overal distance between the electrodes to be less than that. There was a proposable to make field emitting triodes (rather than thermionic ones) using eteched silicon structures. Those would work without a vacuum due to their small size. The reuslt would be radiation-hard chips. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 27 14:51:45 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 15:51:45 -0500 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <20100127200555.6bd55559.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CB46956-1778-4478-A932-3899AA67D392@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e1001261032j47a9fe7ak6b78b93b752f8b3c@mail.gmail.com> <66AD9588-0F02-4A9E-AA57-1C72D75D604B@neurotica.com> <20100127182620.2e2a455c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20100127200555.6bd55559.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <8597B991-DA5D-4838-912C-DBD0649CE05C@neurotica.com> On Jan 27, 2010, at 2:05 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: >> Standard USB host controllers are (unless this has changed >> recently) based on an 8051 core. > > You mean UHCI? (As UHCI == intel & VIA. Everything else is OHCI.) I don't recall whether it was UHCI or OHCI that grew out of the prototype implementation; I think it was UHCI. > Well. Why not? There are gigabit Ethernet controllers with dual MIPS > R4000 cores inside... (Broadcom BCM570x) Hey, I didn't say I had a problem with it. I think it's a perfect application for an 8051. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 27 14:53:41 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 15:53:41 -0500 Subject: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <201001271707.o0RH73m5018172@floodgap.com> References: <201001271707.o0RH73m5018172@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Jan 27, 2010, at 12:07 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> the market doesn't always pick the best technology (where is beos >>> today? for example) >> >> Ok, here's where I have to ask. Why does everyone get all excited >> about BeOS? I ran it for a while and I thought it was a pile of >> crap. What was so great about it, from your point of view? > > I like BeOS, but part of that is due to the fact I adore the BeBox > (tip > of the hat to Doc). I'm going to port Classilla to it as soon as I > get it > stabilized on Mac OS 9. Ok...so what do you like about BeOS? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 27 15:12:49 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 16:12:49 -0500 Subject: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <4B60802E.5010308@philpem.me.uk> References: , , , , , , , , <4B6054A2.6030405@philpem.me.uk> <4FD87621-8AAC-4B1D-8C80-8388570D6F01@neurotica.com> <4B60802E.5010308@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Jan 27, 2010, at 1:04 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> Well to be fair, IDE didn't exactly replace SCSI. ;) And, >> interestingly, it's starting to look like SCSI drives will still >> be produced after IDE drives are no longer being made. > > Also bear in mind -- the USB Mass Storage protocol stack is > essentially a USB wrapper for the SCSI command set. SCSI is going > to leave its mark for a long time to come. Heck, ATAPI (usually > used for CD/DVD drive interfacing) is basically "SCSI over ATA"... Indeed. FireWire also uses the SCSI command set, as does FibreChannel and IBM's SSA. There are lots of different transport layers for SCSI that aren't called SCSI. Since this industry is filled to overflowing with people who talk without knowing what they're talking about, this has the unfortunate side effect of many people thinking that SCSI is somehow "dead". -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jan 27 15:23:13 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 21:23:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Sort of On-Topic? In-Reply-To: <4B609F16.6090707@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <434931.15060.qm@web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com> OMG :) I have Lemmings on the Megadrive, played a few levels at school (badly) on Acorn Archemedes, and have (and completed) various versions on the Amiga. I'm back in heaven... and perhaps this would suit the *cough* I-Pad *cough* perfectly. The only version I lack, and would love, is the Spectrum one... just to see purple Lemmings :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Wed, 27/1/10, Doc Shipley wrote: From: Doc Shipley Subject: Sort of On-Topic? To: "CCtalk" Date: Wednesday, 27 January, 2010, 20:16 http://www.elizium.nu/scripts/lemmings/ ? Yes, exactly what the URL implies. ??? Doc From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jan 27 15:25:41 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 13:25:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: from Dave McGuire at "Jan 27, 10 03:53:41 pm" Message-ID: <201001272125.o0RLPffY017370@floodgap.com> > Ok...so what do you like about BeOS? I like the interface, and I like the unique nature of its kernel. It feels very much like a cross between the Classic Mac OS and POSIX, and given Gassee's history, that sort of makes sense. That occupies a sweet spot for me which is why I'm so fond of Power MachTen. I have to admit I don't find it insanely useful, but that's because BeOS on the PPC suffered badly thanks to Apple, and all the BeOS and Haiku development that matters is x86. So whatever things I've wanted to use on it I've had to build myself (lynx, perl, ...) Fortunately it comes with a MetroWerks compiler, and thanks to Classilla I am *intimately* familiar with that compiler's quirks :) I put some more RAM in it (which had the strange effect of breaking SheepShaver, which couldn't handle the extra memory, I guess) and did some twiddling, and it's up to where I like it and tinker with it often. So, I guess you could say I like it because it's different and odd, yet still workably familiar. I like OS/2 for much the same reasons, although interestingly I don't know how many BeOS fans like OS/2. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Birth, n.: The first and direst of all disasters. -- Ambrose Bierce -------- From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jan 27 15:30:02 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 13:30:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sort of On-Topic? In-Reply-To: <4B609F16.6090707@vaxen.net> from Doc Shipley at "Jan 27, 10 02:16:22 pm" Message-ID: <201001272130.o0RLU2A3017286@floodgap.com> > http://www.elizium.nu/scripts/lemmings/ > Yes, exactly what the URL implies. A 500MHz CPU to play Lemmings? The modern world is a cold place. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Drive defensively ... buy a tank. ------------------------------------------ From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Wed Jan 27 15:34:31 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 13:34:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <201001272125.o0RLPffY017370@floodgap.com> References: <201001272125.o0RLPffY017370@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <69114.63297.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Seems to me that one of the bragging points about BeOS (and even moreso when you consider the dual CPU BeBox) was the multithreaded nature of the apps and OS. At the time it came out ISTR that they claimed none of the other desktop OSs did that quite as well. I can't really say one way or the other, but I do remember being impressed with it when I first played with it as well. ________________________________ From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Wed, January 27, 2010 3:25:41 PM Subject: Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) > Ok...so what do you like about BeOS? I like the interface, and I like the unique nature of its kernel. It feels very much like a cross between the Classic Mac OS and POSIX, and given Gassee's history, that sort of makes sense. That occupies a sweet spot for me which is why I'm so fond of Power MachTen. I have to admit I don't find it insanely useful, but that's because BeOS on the PPC suffered badly thanks to Apple, and all the BeOS and Haiku development that matters is x86. So whatever things I've wanted to use on it I've had to build myself (lynx, perl, ...) Fortunately it comes with a MetroWerks compiler, and thanks to Classilla I am *intimately* familiar with that compiler's quirks :) I put some more RAM in it (which had the strange effect of breaking SheepShaver, which couldn't handle the extra memory, I guess) and did some twiddling, and it's up to where I like it and tinker with it often. So, I guess you could say I like it because it's different and odd, yet still workably familiar. I like OS/2 for much the same reasons, although interestingly I don't know how many BeOS fans like OS/2. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Birth, n.: The first and direst of all disasters. -- Ambrose Bierce -------- From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 27 15:41:05 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:41:05 -0700 Subject: block-mode terminals, was Re: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:23:18 -0500. <9A85BEDB-86D2-4EB8-A474-872876DA413C@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Its my understanding that block mode terminals help you implement fill-out-forms for terminals. I don't know if curses like libraries take advantage of that. My understanding of curses is limited, but I don't believe it ever evolved to the point of implementing a forms mechanism as part of the library. IBM terminals are so weird that I know nothing about them. ASCII terminals implement block mode through an escape sequence. I don't know if they implement block mode similarly enough that a curses type abstraction could be put on top of it. Mostly what I've seen is that the application defines the editable portion of the screen using escape codes. The user can then fill out individual fields on the screen and navigate from field to field using the keys on the keyboard. Some key indicates that the user is done filling out the form and the terminal notifies the application that this is so. Some terminals send the field data at the same time as the notification, some don't and require the application to query that back from the terminal. I think it was typical for the terminal to bulk send the entire form when it acknowledged the user's "done" action. Now I'm wondering if there is some sort of game that could be created that exploited block mode :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 27 15:48:36 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:48:36 -0700 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:21:45 -0800. <4B5F40C9.8010603@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4B5F40C9.8010603 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > I do try to explain the differences when people ask why we don't > have more running hardware. It is a challenge and requires a team of > dedicated volunteers to ke ep the PDP-1 in good shape to be shown as > a scheduled exhibit, for example. Don't forget that you can point them to pdp planet where they can get a free login on the DECsystem machines they have. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 15:48:21 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 15:48:21 -0600 Subject: Sort of On-Topic? In-Reply-To: References: <4B609F16.6090707@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4B60B4A5.7060700@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 1/27/10, Doc Shipley wrote: >> http://www.elizium.nu/scripts/lemmings/ >> >> Yes, exactly what the URL implies. > > Pretty cool - of course what struck me was that their own > recommendation is to play on a 500Mhz+ i386 machine a game that coded > natively (vs scripted) plays smoothly on a 7.16MHz 68000. > > That's a lot of overhead. Yes, although I keep seeing Flash remakes of old 8-bitter games which would have run on hardware at 2MHz or less, and they don't run particularly well even on this laptop's 1.4GHz CPU... yet I'm sure Adobe would love it if everything in the world was a bit of Flash code, just as much as Google want everything to run within a web browser. I find that kind of 'progress' rather depressing :-( From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Jan 27 15:52:21 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 16:52:21 -0500 Subject: 8051, was Re: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B60B595.4070206@verizon.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> Dumb 8051ish related question.... >> >> >> Will 8040 code run on a '51? I have yet to find a definitive yea or nay :( >> > > No. THe 8040 is the ROMless 8050 IIRC. it's related to the > 8035/8039/8048/8049 too. It's a different instruction set from the 8051 > family. > > -tony > > The answer is, nay. As Tony said the 8050/40 is a version of the 8048/35 group that has 256bytes of internal ram and if rom is present 2k. FYI: 256 bytes is the addressing limit for ram in the part and the pointer register (R0, R1 or the secondaries are 8bit. 8048 is a 12bit max instruction address and 8bit data address Harvard machine. The code at the source level and be ported easily to 8051 if care is taken to limit interactions with the added features so notably the initialization code must be changed to reflect enviroment. The 8051 is a 16bit instruction address 16bit data address Harvard machine. The 8051 is very similar to 8048 in basic design but has greater addressing and larger instruction set. The 8051 also adds a significant number if internal peripherals that would require external chips in the 8048 design to approximate. NOTE: it is possible with a simple external hack (external rom and ram) to make both parts look like a VonNeuman like machine. It was a common hack to make instruction space and data space overlap. Allison From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 15:54:28 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 15:54:28 -0600 Subject: Amiga Slingshot Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001271354k5c796f35ibac19fe8d17564ff@mail.gmail.com> In short, I'd really like to have one of these: http://amiga.resource.cx/exp/search.pl?product=slingshot&company= It's an adapter that turns the expansion port on an amiga 500 into a zorro 2 slot like those in the amiga 2000. They're rare enough to almost never show up on ebay. But they look really easy to construct. Assuming the card edge connectors were available, I bet someone with more hardware knowledge than me could make a batch of these for cheap. While you're at it, there's a few designs floating around for IDE adapters for amigas that wedge between the 68000 and the motherboard. A batch of those would sell out quickly as well. brian From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 16:02:15 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 16:02:15 -0600 Subject: ARM & 8051 Shipments (and kinda PPC) In-Reply-To: <7A927033-77B3-41C8-9E54-C1C3FEC72DA6@neurotica.com> References: , <4B5F7BBB.8080407@dunnington.plus.com> <4B5F13BD.20597.DC97A@cclist.sydex.com> <7A927033-77B3-41C8-9E54-C1C3FEC72DA6@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B60B7E7.4050404@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > That's pretty scary stuff. I will laugh in the face of the "engineer" > who designs a 32-bit processor into a refrigerator. I've been tempted to duct-tape a CRT TV to our 30 year old fridge, just to make it look like one of the current generation ;) From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 27 16:03:57 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 17:03:57 -0500 Subject: 8051, was Re: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <4B60B595.4070206@verizon.net> References: <4B60B595.4070206@verizon.net> Message-ID: <594C71D2-9D70-43CF-9079-102B77F92372@neurotica.com> On Jan 27, 2010, at 4:52 PM, Allison wrote: > NOTE: it is possible with a simple external hack (external rom and > ram) > to make both parts look like a VonNeuman like machine. It was a > common > hack to make instruction space and data space overlap. And it's an easy hack to do. This is what makes 8051 FORTH implementations practical. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 27 16:05:54 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 17:05:54 -0500 Subject: ARM & 8051 Shipments (and kinda PPC) In-Reply-To: <4B60B7E7.4050404@gmail.com> References: , <4B5F7BBB.8080407@dunnington.plus.com> <4B5F13BD.20597.DC97A@cclist.sydex.com> <7A927033-77B3-41C8-9E54-C1C3FEC72DA6@neurotica.com> <4B60B7E7.4050404@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1CACBE12-7BDE-43BF-8DEF-D117BE8409C8@neurotica.com> On Jan 27, 2010, at 5:02 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> That's pretty scary stuff. I will laugh in the face of the >> "engineer" who designs a 32-bit processor into a refrigerator. > > I've been tempted to duct-tape a CRT TV to our 30 year old fridge, > just to make it look like one of the current generation ;) ROFL! -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 16:09:53 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 16:09:53 -0600 Subject: ARM & 8051 Shipments (and kinda PPC) In-Reply-To: <4B5F1FF1.14179.3D74C9@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B5F13BD.20597.DC97A@cclist.sydex.com>, <7A927033-77B3-41C8-9E54-C1C3FEC72DA6@neurotica.com> <4B5F1FF1.14179.3D74C9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B60B9B1.1050802@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 26 Jan 2010 at 19:47, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> That's pretty scary stuff. I will laugh in the face of the >> "engineer" who designs a 32-bit processor into a refrigerator. > > Remove the "32-bit" from your sentence and you my sentiments. > > True story--my sister-in-law is legally blind and usually quite self- > sufficient. When she and her husband decided to remodel their > kitchen, they couldn't find a new electric range with knobs that > would give a tactile indication of which burner was on and the level. The odd thing there is that I've seen knobs and switches and such 'tactile' devices at the high end of the market - so it sounds almost as though buttons and displays has become cheaper than the "old fashioned" way of doing things on the low-end stuff. > I like my radios with tuning knobs and really thougth the volume knob > on my old HP PC keyboard was pretty neat. I've got a real hankering after 1970's Pioneer audio gear at the moment - not because of the audio quality (or lack thereof) but because their knobs and switches had such a nice feel to them... cheers Jules From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Jan 27 16:28:44 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 17:28:44 -0500 Subject: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) References: , , , , , , , , , , , , , <4B6054A2.6030405@philpem.me.uk>, , <24dc01ca9f7a$45f39be0$0101a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <056FED94FB0E40D7B926497C3BAE96B8@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Gahlinger" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 2:11 PM Subject: RE: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) Babylon 5 was done entirely on amigas, that's not a small feat, so what you say isn't entirely true. the complexity is available, the ability is there, to an extent. http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/making/effects.html "All special effects for Babylon 5 are computer generated. Foundation Imaging, headed by Ron Thornton, produced the special effects for the pilot movie and seasons one through three. Starting in season four, the special effects were moved in-house to Netter Digital Imaging, another subsidiary of the parent of B5's production company. The B5 effects teams, both at Foundation and at NDI, use Lightwave 3D by NewTek and specialized software to design and render the visual effects. For the pilot, the effects were rendered on a network of Amiga computers; later, Foundation used 12 Pentium PCs and 5 DEC Alpha workstations for 3D rendering and design, and 3 Macintoshes for piecing together on-set computer displays" From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Jan 27 16:40:27 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 17:40:27 -0500 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <4B5D1D50.8020902@oldskool.org> References: <4B5C8E55.3050105@cimmeri.com> <4B5D155E.1050005@verizon.net> <4B5D1D50.8020902@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4B60C0DB.5090302@verizon.net> Forgive the dated reply. Jim Leonard wrote: > On 1/24/2010 9:51 PM, Keith M wrote: >> We were different, and we were better. And we had personality. > > You can find personality in almost any computer subculture if you look > hard enough. I've been involved with the "demoscene" since 1990 and no > matter what platform a demo is written on, there's a lot of personality. Very cool. I've always liked the Amiga demos and was amazed with the things that they could do. I would get these foreign demos and read about these crazy copy parties/demo parties in Europe and always wondered what going to one would be like. >> Are there groups of young people today that find themselves emotionally >> attached to the computers of today? > > Yes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demoscene Very cool. I guess I didn't know that there were still people involved in creating demos. Thanks for your post. Keith From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Jan 27 16:42:12 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 17:42:12 -0500 Subject: Amiga Slingshot In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381001271354k5c796f35ibac19fe8d17564ff@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c381001271354k5c796f35ibac19fe8d17564ff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B60C144.1040801@atarimuseum.com> Doesn't look like very much, I'm surprised there aren't more around, I personally need something like that as I'd like to either find a sidecar or a HD from my A1000. I'm really surprised how few mods/upgrades there seem to be for the A1000, the original 520 ST's have more upgrades then I could count. Curt Brian Lanning wrote: > In short, I'd really like to have one of these: > > http://amiga.resource.cx/exp/search.pl?product=slingshot&company= > > It's an adapter that turns the expansion port on an amiga 500 into a zorro 2 > slot like those in the amiga 2000. > > They're rare enough to almost never show up on ebay. But they look really > easy to construct. Assuming the card edge connectors were available, I bet > someone with more hardware knowledge than me could make a batch of these for > cheap. > > While you're at it, there's a few designs floating around for IDE adapters > for amigas that wedge between the 68000 and the motherboard. A batch of > those would sell out quickly as well. > > brian > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 27 16:56:51 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:56:51 -0800 Subject: 8051, was Re: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <4B60B595.4070206@verizon.net> References: , <4B60B595.4070206@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B605433.23352.15738ED@cclist.sydex.com> On the other hand, the 8041 shares its instruction set with the 8038/8048... series. There existed an EPROM version, the 8741. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 27 17:28:10 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 18:28:10 -0500 Subject: ARM & 8051 Shipments (and kinda PPC) In-Reply-To: <4B60B9B1.1050802@gmail.com> References: , <4B5F13BD.20597.DC97A@cclist.sydex.com>, <7A927033-77B3-41C8-9E54-C1C3FEC72DA6@neurotica.com> <4B5F1FF1.14179.3D74C9@cclist.sydex.com> <4B60B9B1.1050802@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6E66141D-1877-45DD-A38C-546303C8D380@neurotica.com> On Jan 27, 2010, at 5:09 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > The odd thing there is that I've seen knobs and switches and such > 'tactile' devices at the high end of the market - so it sounds > almost as though buttons and displays has become cheaper than the > "old fashioned" way of doing things on the low-end stuff. Well, the reasoning for this is simple. Toggle switches are very expensive, and so are knobs: variable resistors, rotary switches, and shaft encoders, typically in order of increasing expense. Pushbutton switches are a bit cheaper but still pretty pricey. Membrane switches, on the other hand, are dirt cheap. They're produced via a printing process. Logic is also cheap. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dgahling at hotmail.com Wed Jan 27 17:44:57 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 18:44:57 -0500 Subject: Amiga Slingshot In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381001271354k5c796f35ibac19fe8d17564ff@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c381001271354k5c796f35ibac19fe8d17564ff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Jim Brain should be able to build this in his sleep ;) (assuming he's not too busy) Dan. > Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 15:54:28 -0600 > Subject: Amiga Slingshot > From: brianlanning at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > In short, I'd really like to have one of these: > > http://amiga.resource.cx/exp/search.pl?product=slingshot&company= > > It's an adapter that turns the expansion port on an amiga 500 into a zorro 2 > slot like those in the amiga 2000. > > They're rare enough to almost never show up on ebay. But they look really > easy to construct. Assuming the card edge connectors were available, I bet > someone with more hardware knowledge than me could make a batch of these for > cheap. > > While you're at it, there's a few designs floating around for IDE adapters > for amigas that wedge between the 68000 and the motherboard. A batch of > those would sell out quickly as well. > > brian _________________________________________________________________ From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Jan 27 17:53:15 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 18:53:15 -0500 Subject: Manual for Matrox Video Controller PND00188 - 166 D06 2 Message-ID: <4B60D1EB.90706@compsys.to> I looked in bitsavers under Matrox for the manual. The board is a Qbus quad with the number PND00188 - 166 D06 2 (Matrox Alpha Video) Made By: Matrox Electronic Systems Ltd. Type: QRGB - Alpha Date: November 10, 1986 Might anyone have a copy of this as a PDF? Jerome Fine From brain at jbrain.com Wed Jan 27 18:42:50 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 18:42:50 -0600 Subject: Amiga Slingshot In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c381001271354k5c796f35ibac19fe8d17564ff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B60DD8A.4060807@jbrain.com> On 1/27/2010 5:44 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > Jim Brain should be able to build this in his sleep ;) > (assuming he's not too busy) > I'm happy to help, but the pic's a bit too small for me to see the specifics. If you can get a good scan, and some info on the connectors and the IC on board, that would be helpful. I noticed it says the passthrough is of limited use due to the missing Buster IC. Does that imply there's no practical point in designing the pro version? Jim From halarewich at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 18:55:49 2010 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 16:55:49 -0800 Subject: Amiga Slingshot In-Reply-To: <4B60DD8A.4060807@jbrain.com> References: <6dbe3c381001271354k5c796f35ibac19fe8d17564ff@mail.gmail.com> <4B60DD8A.4060807@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <6d6501091001271655o168c3dd3m690ee37fed688617@mail.gmail.com> hires here http://amiga.resource.cx/photos/photo2.pl?id=slingshot&pg=1&res=hi&lang=en http://amiga.resource.cx/photos/photo2.pl?id=slingshot&pg=2&res=hi&lang=en http://amiga.resource.cx/photos/photo2.pl?id=slingshot&pg=3&res=hi&lang=en On 1/27/10, Jim Brain wrote: > > On 1/27/2010 5:44 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > >> Jim Brain should be able to build this in his sleep ;) >> (assuming he's not too busy) >> >> > I'm happy to help, but the pic's a bit too small for me to see the > specifics. If you can get a good scan, and some info on the connectors and > the IC on board, that would be helpful. > > I noticed it says the passthrough is of limited use due to the missing > Buster IC. Does that imply there's no practical point in designing the pro > version? > > Jim > > From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 19:00:52 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 19:00:52 -0600 Subject: Amiga Slingshot In-Reply-To: <4B60DD8A.4060807@jbrain.com> References: <6dbe3c381001271354k5c796f35ibac19fe8d17564ff@mail.gmail.com> <4B60DD8A.4060807@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001271700t1e5d44cbw14d1ede17d38e0a3@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 6:42 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > On 1/27/2010 5:44 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > >> Jim Brain should be able to build this in his sleep ;) >> (assuming he's not too busy) >> > > > I'm happy to help, but the pic's a bit too small for me to see the >> specifics. If you can get a good scan, and some info on the connectors and >> the IC on board, that would be helpful. >> > Done! Although the 500 expansion connector and the zorro slot are well-documented. Now to just figure out what that little IC is... > I noticed it says the passthrough is of limited use due to the missing >> Buster IC. Does that imply there's no practical point in designing the pro >> version? >> > I'm not sure. The amiga hardware database says that use would be limited... whatever that means. Maybe for ram expansion only? I'll do some reasearch and get back to you. Also, some guys from finland (or was it sweeden?) made this: http://amiga.erkan.se/index.php/internal-amiga-500-ide-hard-drive-controller-from-finland/ I know the circuit board designs are available, so maybe all the work has been done. I'll ask around the amiga boards and see how much interest there is. brian From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Wed Jan 27 19:10:12 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 19:10:12 -0600 Subject: Amiga Slingshot In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381001271700t1e5d44cbw14d1ede17d38e0a3@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c381001271354k5c796f35ibac19fe8d17564ff@mail.gmail.com> <4B60DD8A.4060807@jbrain.com> <6dbe3c381001271700t1e5d44cbw14d1ede17d38e0a3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <65C00518-B72C-4033-A908-627A11BA9D7C@bellsouth.net> Isn't it just an OR gate for Autoconfig passthrough? On Jan 27, 2010, at 7:00 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 6:42 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > >> On 1/27/2010 5:44 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: >> >>> Jim Brain should be able to build this in his sleep ;) >>> (assuming he's not too busy) >>> >> >> > > >> I'm happy to help, but the pic's a bit too small for me to see the >>> specifics. If you can get a good scan, and some info on the connectors and >>> the IC on board, that would be helpful. >>> >> > > Done! Although the 500 expansion connector and the zorro slot are > well-documented. Now to just figure out what that little IC is... > > > >> I noticed it says the passthrough is of limited use due to the missing >>> Buster IC. Does that imply there's no practical point in designing the pro >>> version? >>> >> > > I'm not sure. The amiga hardware database says that use would be limited... > whatever that means. Maybe for ram expansion only? I'll do some reasearch > and get back to you. > > Also, some guys from finland (or was it sweeden?) made this: > > http://amiga.erkan.se/index.php/internal-amiga-500-ide-hard-drive-controller-from-finland/ > > I know the circuit board designs are available, so maybe all the work has > been done. I'll ask around the amiga boards and see how much interest there > is. > > brian From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 27 19:23:20 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 17:23:20 -0800 Subject: ARM & 8051 Shipments (and kinda PPC) In-Reply-To: <6E66141D-1877-45DD-A38C-546303C8D380@neurotica.com> References: , <4B60B9B1.1050802@gmail.com>, <6E66141D-1877-45DD-A38C-546303C8D380@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B607688.1481.1DD52E2@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Jan 2010 at 18:28, Dave McGuire wrote: > Membrane switches, on the other hand, are dirt cheap. They're > produced via a printing process. Logic is also cheap. All very true, but will a cell phone turn on your oven if it's knob- operated? http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/23/nyregion/23about.html I'm also deeply suspicious about the safety of "soft" power switches that seem to be everywhere nowadays. --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 19:20:06 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 23:20:06 -0200 Subject: Amiga Slingshot References: <6dbe3c381001271354k5c796f35ibac19fe8d17564ff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <276b01ca9fba$80653410$0101a8c0@Alexandre> > In short, I'd really like to have one of these: > http://amiga.resource.cx/exp/search.pl?product=slingshot&company= > It's an adapter that turns the expansion port on an amiga 500 into a zorro > 2 > slot like those in the amiga 2000. I'd build one of these into an afternoon, if I had one to copy! I can do that with double sided boards MADE AT HOME, so easy it is to copy! :oO From hachti at hachti.de Wed Jan 27 20:22:44 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 03:22:44 +0100 Subject: Sort of On-Topic? In-Reply-To: <201001272130.o0RLU2A3017286@floodgap.com> References: <201001272130.o0RLU2A3017286@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4B60F4F4.1030809@hachti.de> > A 500MHz CPU to play Lemmings? The modern world is a cold place. I remember playing it on my first PC: A NEC UltraLite 286 LAPTOP with CGA (or EGA?) grey LCD and a 20MB harddisk. The machine was ideal to play lemmings. The NiCd accu lasted some hours as well. And it had the same size as a current 14" laptop. I loved Lemmings! Was the only useful application for my Logitech serial mouse.... -- http://www.hachti.de From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 27 20:38:34 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 18:38:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: ARM & 8051 Shipments (and kinda PPC) In-Reply-To: <4B607688.1481.1DD52E2@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B60B9B1.1050802@gmail.com>, <6E66141D-1877-45DD-A38C-546303C8D380@neurotica.com> <4B607688.1481.1DD52E2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100127175449.O72264@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 27 Jan 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > All very true, but will a cell phone turn on your oven if it's knob- > operated? With a 32 bit processor in it, . . . it should be able to analyze your past eating habits, and project that you will want the oven pre-heated, so that the OS can proceed to do exactly opposite of what you want. http://monster-island.org/tinashumor/humor/mstvdin.html There are earlier editions that were written by somebody without a clue of OS syntax and punctuation, and later editions expanded with further corrections that have systematically been removed, because they didn't praise Microsoft and Apple. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 20:47:58 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 21:47:58 -0500 Subject: ARM & 8051 Shipments (and kinda PPC) In-Reply-To: <6E66141D-1877-45DD-A38C-546303C8D380@neurotica.com> References: <4B5F13BD.20597.DC97A@cclist.sydex.com> <7A927033-77B3-41C8-9E54-C1C3FEC72DA6@neurotica.com> <4B5F1FF1.14179.3D74C9@cclist.sydex.com> <4B60B9B1.1050802@gmail.com> <6E66141D-1877-45DD-A38C-546303C8D380@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 1/27/10, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 27, 2010, at 5:09 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> The odd thing there is that I've seen knobs and switches and such >> 'tactile' devices at the high end of the market - so it sounds >> almost as though buttons and displays has become cheaper than the >> "old fashioned" way of doing things on the low-end stuff. > > Well, the reasoning for this is simple. > > Toggle switches are very expensive, and so are knobs: variable > resistors, rotary switches, and shaft encoders, typically in order of > increasing expense. Pushbutton switches are a bit cheaper but still > pretty pricey. Holes are expensive, too. Years ago, I worked for a company that made a telephone line simulator that fit into a standard gray PacTec box. The front and back panels were machined and silkscreened, and the next most expensive part of the entire product after the 4-layer PCB. These days, laser cutting is cheaper than machining, but even with that, there's still RF leakage (FCC approval) and manual assembly that make knobs more expensive than the alternative. That said, I still enjoy UIs with lights, knobs, and switches, but have come to expect them less and less on consumer items. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 27 21:26:13 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 22:26:13 -0500 Subject: ARM & 8051 Shipments (and kinda PPC) In-Reply-To: <4B607688.1481.1DD52E2@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B60B9B1.1050802@gmail.com>, <6E66141D-1877-45DD-A38C-546303C8D380@neurotica.com> <4B607688.1481.1DD52E2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Jan 27, 2010, at 8:23 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Membrane switches, on the other hand, are dirt cheap. They're >> produced via a printing process. Logic is also cheap. > > All very true, but will a cell phone turn on your oven if it's knob- > operated? > > http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/23/nyregion/23about.html Niiiiiice. A little shielding goes a long way! > I'm also deeply suspicious about the safety of "soft" power switches > that seem to be everywhere nowadays. Yeah I've always had an issue with those. There are several things that I just unplug because of them. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 21:48:31 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 22:48:31 -0500 Subject: ARM & 8051 Shipments (and kinda PPC) In-Reply-To: References: <4B5F13BD.20597.DC97A@cclist.sydex.com> <7A927033-77B3-41C8-9E54-C1C3FEC72DA6@neurotica.com> <4B5F1FF1.14179.3D74C9@cclist.sydex.com> <4B60B9B1.1050802@gmail.com> <6E66141D-1877-45DD-A38C-546303C8D380@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Holes are expensive, too. ?Years ago, I worked for a company that made > a telephone line simulator that fit into a standard gray PacTec box. > The front and back panels were machined and silkscreened, and the next > most expensive part of the entire product after the 4-layer PCB. Things get really bad when shaping and welding the metal come into play. The US Robotic Total Control chassis, the rackmount box that held about 20 modems, cost USR $632.00. Just the metal box. No circuit boards, no backplanes, no power supplies, no wires, no fans, no nothing. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 27 21:51:52 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 22:51:52 -0500 Subject: ARM & 8051 Shipments (and kinda PPC) In-Reply-To: References: <4B5F13BD.20597.DC97A@cclist.sydex.com> <7A927033-77B3-41C8-9E54-C1C3FEC72DA6@neurotica.com> <4B5F1FF1.14179.3D74C9@cclist.sydex.com> <4B60B9B1.1050802@gmail.com> <6E66141D-1877-45DD-A38C-546303C8D380@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <617181AE-5C16-4288-8A15-47D7603E4D37@neurotica.com> On Jan 27, 2010, at 10:48 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Holes are expensive, too. Years ago, I worked for a company that >> made >> a telephone line simulator that fit into a standard gray PacTec box. >> The front and back panels were machined and silkscreened, and the >> next >> most expensive part of the entire product after the 4-layer PCB. > > Things get really bad when shaping and welding the metal come into > play. The US Robotic Total Control chassis, the rackmount box that > held about 20 modems, cost USR $632.00. Just the metal box. No circuit > boards, no backplanes, no power supplies, no wires, no fans, no > nothing. You could drive a car over one of those with no ill effects, though! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jan 27 21:56:01 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 20:56:01 -0700 Subject: ARM & 8051 Shipments (and kinda PPC) In-Reply-To: <617181AE-5C16-4288-8A15-47D7603E4D37@neurotica.com> References: <4B5F13BD.20597.DC97A@cclist.sydex.com> <7A927033-77B3-41C8-9E54-C1C3FEC72DA6@neurotica.com> <4B5F1FF1.14179.3D74C9@cclist.sydex.com> <4B60B9B1.1050802@gmail.com> <6E66141D-1877-45DD-A38C-546303C8D380@neurotica.com> <617181AE-5C16-4288-8A15-47D7603E4D37@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B610AD1.8090609@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 27, 2010, at 10:48 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> Holes are expensive, too. Years ago, I worked for a company that made >>> a telephone line simulator that fit into a standard gray PacTec box. >>> The front and back panels were machined and silkscreened, and the next >>> most expensive part of the entire product after the 4-layer PCB. >> >> Things get really bad when shaping and welding the metal come into >> play. The US Robotic Total Control chassis, the rackmount box that >> held about 20 modems, cost USR $632.00. Just the metal box. No circuit >> boards, no backplanes, no power supplies, no wires, no fans, no >> nothing. > > You could drive a car over one of those with no ill effects, though! > > -Dave > I don't know. Cars arn't cheap any more! Ben. From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Jan 27 22:04:20 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 20:04:20 -0800 Subject: 8051, was Re: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <4B5F5C0E.3595.1284594@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Does anyone know of a disassembler that will disassemble code for the family of processors that the 8040 is in? On 1/26/10 9:18 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 26 Jan 2010 at 19:57, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > >> Dumb 8051ish related question.... >> >> >> Will 8040 code run on a '51? I have yet to find a definitive yea or >> nay :( > > Do you mean are the codes binary-compatible? No. They bear a > certain resemblance to each other in terms of programming model, but > the opcodes themselves are different. > > For example: > > 04 on the 8048 is a jump > 04 on the 8051 is INC A > > Picking another at random > > 97 on the 8048 is CLR C > 97 on the 8051 is SUBB A, at R1 > > No, if you try to run unmodified 8048 code on an 8051 or vice-versa, > you're going to crash and burn in short order. > > --Chuck > > > > From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 22:18:30 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 22:18:30 -0600 Subject: Amiga Slingshot In-Reply-To: <4B60DD8A.4060807@jbrain.com> References: <6dbe3c381001271354k5c796f35ibac19fe8d17564ff@mail.gmail.com> <4B60DD8A.4060807@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001272018ub4c1e81i22872c64dd0396f3@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 6:42 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > On 1/27/2010 5:44 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > >> Jim Brain should be able to build this in his sleep ;) >> (assuming he's not too busy) >> >> > I'm happy to help, but the pic's a bit too small for me to see the > specifics. If you can get a good scan, and some info on the connectors and > the IC on board, that would be helpful. > > I noticed it says the passthrough is of limited use due to the missing > Buster IC. Does that imply there's no practical point in designing the pro > version? > A bit more info... apparently the card edge connector for the amiga 500 is the same as the CPU slot on an amiga 2000. There are 1000s of amiga 2000 boards out there with acid damage from leaky batteries. They're not right-angle connectors though, so I'm not sure how well that would work. There are 1000s of scsi controllers out there for the 2000, many with ram on them that would be cheap and plentiful that could plug right into this. brian From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Wed Jan 27 23:06:56 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 23:06:56 -0600 Subject: Amiga Slingshot In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381001272018ub4c1e81i22872c64dd0396f3@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c381001271354k5c796f35ibac19fe8d17564ff@mail.gmail.com> <4B60DD8A.4060807@jbrain.com> <6dbe3c381001272018ub4c1e81i22872c64dd0396f3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <79DE675D-B6D5-4AA2-B9CB-C42E71452158@bellsouth.net> I'm kind of surprised at the simplicity of the adapter. I always thought that more buffering was needed on the bus. I guess for just one plug in card it's not as critical though. On Jan 27, 2010, at 10:18 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 6:42 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > >> On 1/27/2010 5:44 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: >> >>> Jim Brain should be able to build this in his sleep ;) >>> (assuming he's not too busy) >>> >>> >> I'm happy to help, but the pic's a bit too small for me to see the >> specifics. If you can get a good scan, and some info on the connectors and >> the IC on board, that would be helpful. >> >> I noticed it says the passthrough is of limited use due to the missing >> Buster IC. Does that imply there's no practical point in designing the pro >> version? >> > > A bit more info... apparently the card edge connector for the amiga 500 is > the same as the CPU slot on an amiga 2000. There are 1000s of amiga 2000 > boards out there with acid damage from leaky batteries. They're not > right-angle connectors though, so I'm not sure how well that would work. > > There are 1000s of scsi controllers out there for the 2000, many with ram on > them that would be cheap and plentiful that could plug right into this. > > brian From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Jan 27 23:14:59 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 00:14:59 -0500 Subject: Amiga Slingshot In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381001272018ub4c1e81i22872c64dd0396f3@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c381001271354k5c796f35ibac19fe8d17564ff@mail.gmail.com> <4B60DD8A.4060807@jbrain.com> <6dbe3c381001272018ub4c1e81i22872c64dd0396f3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B611D53.9060109@atarimuseum.com> I would DEFINITELY pay anyone who makes a run of these adapters as I'd definitely like to add a SCSI HD to my A1000... so if Brian or anyone else is going to take up making a small run of these, count me in. Brian Lanning wrote: > On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 6:42 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > > >> On 1/27/2010 5:44 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: >> >> >>> Jim Brain should be able to build this in his sleep ;) >>> (assuming he's not too busy) >>> >>> >>> >> I'm happy to help, but the pic's a bit too small for me to see the >> specifics. If you can get a good scan, and some info on the connectors and >> the IC on board, that would be helpful. >> >> I noticed it says the passthrough is of limited use due to the missing >> Buster IC. Does that imply there's no practical point in designing the pro >> version? >> >> > > A bit more info... apparently the card edge connector for the amiga 500 is > the same as the CPU slot on an amiga 2000. There are 1000s of amiga 2000 > boards out there with acid damage from leaky batteries. They're not > right-angle connectors though, so I'm not sure how well that would work. > > There are 1000s of scsi controllers out there for the 2000, many with ram on > them that would be cheap and plentiful that could plug right into this. > > brian > > From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Jan 27 23:35:40 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 00:35:40 -0500 Subject: Amiga Slingshot References: <6dbe3c381001271354k5c796f35ibac19fe8d17564ff@mail.gmail.com> <4B60DD8A.4060807@jbrain.com><6dbe3c381001272018ub4c1e81i22872c64dd0396f3@mail.gmail.com> <4B611D53.9060109@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 12:14 AM Subject: Re: Amiga Slingshot >I would DEFINITELY pay anyone who makes a run of these adapters as I'd >definitely like to add a SCSI HD to my A1000... so if Brian or anyone else >is going to take up making a small run of these, count me in. > > > Isn't the side expansion slot of the 1000 and 500 flipped in orientation? Anything that works in one would be upside down on the other? From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Thu Jan 28 00:03:46 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 00:03:46 -0600 Subject: Amiga Slingshot In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c381001271354k5c796f35ibac19fe8d17564ff@mail.gmail.com> <4B60DD8A.4060807@jbrain.com><6dbe3c381001272018ub4c1e81i22872c64dd0396f3@mail.gmail.com> <4B611D53.9060109@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: I think it's a front-to-back thing rather than an upside down thing if memory serves. On Jan 27, 2010, at 11:35 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 12:14 AM > Subject: Re: Amiga Slingshot > > >> I would DEFINITELY pay anyone who makes a run of these adapters as I'd definitely like to add a SCSI HD to my A1000... so if Brian or anyone else is going to take up making a small run of these, count me in. >> >> >> > > Isn't the side expansion slot of the 1000 and 500 flipped in orientation? Anything that works in one would be upside down on the other? > From starbase89 at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 00:18:49 2010 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 01:18:49 -0500 Subject: Sorta-OT: Selling IBM Model M13 Keyboards, proceeds benefit Infoage Science Center Message-ID: <2b1f1f551001272218x7b8cb5d1g574bef09c592c9c7@mail.gmail.com> As a sort of fund raising method for Infoage, I am selling some things for them. This one is a Model M M13 keyboard with the built in trackpoint. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270522341799 Thanks Joe From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu Jan 28 00:43:08 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 06:43:08 -0000 Subject: [personal] Shaft encoder in HP2631B printer In-Reply-To: References: <4B5FCC58.7030404@tx.rr.com> from "CSquared" at Jan 26, 10 11:17:12 pm Message-ID: <3B45B7C41DD943919910BE8204F2F3BD@EDIConsultingLtd.local> Use a light beam, an analog optical gate and a photocell Regards Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 27 January 2010 20:09 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: [personal] Shaft encoder in HP2631B printer > I wonder if one of those Nernst glowers emits many electrons. I've had > this pipe dream lately to build a triode to operate in open air, and > I've been pondering what to use for a filament/cathode. Googling so far > has not revealed anyone else this crazy. ;) You are going to have problems. The mean free path of an electron in air at atmospheric pressure is pretty short (I forget how short, but it can be looked up). You need to have the overal distance between the electrodes to be less than that. There was a proposable to make field emitting triodes (rather than thermionic ones) using eteched silicon structures. Those would work without a vacuum due to their small size. The reuslt would be radiation-hard chips. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 28 01:12:54 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 23:12:54 -0800 Subject: 8051, was Re: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: References: <4B5F5C0E.3595.1284594@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B60C876.15454.31D5C63@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Jan 2010 at 20:04, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > Does anyone know of a disassembler that will disassemble code for the > family of processors that the 8040 is in? How about this one: http://www.8052.com/users/disasm --Chuck From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Jan 28 02:31:30 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 00:31:30 -0800 Subject: 8051, was Re: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <4B60C876.15454.31D5C63@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Thank you :) for some reason I wasn't getting anything when I searched. On 1/27/10 11:12 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 27 Jan 2010 at 20:04, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > >> Does anyone know of a disassembler that will disassemble code for the >> family of processors that the 8040 is in? > > How about this one: > > http://www.8052.com/users/disasm > > --Chuck > > From mike at brickfieldspark.org Thu Jan 28 03:03:48 2010 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 09:03:48 -0000 Subject: Paper tape reader in the UK References: Message-ID: <001001ca9ff8$ce7c7850$961ca8c0@mss.local> For those few lurkers over here in the UK there is a spool feed Textron papertape reader on Ebay in the UK, from a Bridgeport CNC machine. Ebay listing 120523596119. I'm not connected to the seller, auto searches found it. Best regards, Mike Hatch Web - www.soemtron.org PDP-7 - www.soemtron.org/pdp7.html Email - mike at soemtron.org Stock sale - www.soemtron.org/stockdisposalmenu.html Looking for a PDP-7 (some hope!) From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Jan 28 03:49:42 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 10:49:42 +0100 (CET) Subject: Code for programmer In-Reply-To: References: <4B5FA7EF.7090805@snarc.net>, <4B5F5C83.25058.12A0C3B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Jan 2010, dwight elvey wrote: > Does anyone have code for a PC-UPROG by Advantech? Yes, the most recent version in here: http://support.elmark.com.pl/programatory/AEC/PCUPROG/pcuprog.zip Christian From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Thu Jan 28 05:46:15 2010 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 03:46:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking for an SBUS CG3 501-1718 or 501-1909 Message-ID: <447176.3945.qm@web56208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hi I'm looking for a SBUS cg3 card, the later models which were 501-1718 or 501-1909. I have a new monitor which will only sync to 1152x900x76 not 1152x900x66 the card I have (of course). Its for a sparcstation 1+. For some reason the cg3 is the only card I could ever get working with the sparcstation 1+. Later TGX cards, etc wouldnt work. Anyone have a spare? I'm in the UK, but for something this size shouldnt be too much to post. Thanks Ian. From spedraja at ono.com Thu Jan 28 06:05:59 2010 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 13:05:59 +0100 Subject: PDP8E and compliments Message-ID: Hello. I shall receive in a short one PDP8E in working state. It was used with one paper tape reader years ago. With independence of the revision of the machine that I shall do, I should like to locate some peripherals to interact with the computer. I was thinking in one Teletype with paper tape reader-punch, or both, one cathode-ray terminal or typewriter terminal and one paper tape reader-punch... I have one VT220 operative that perhaps could use with the appropiate cable, with I'm not sure about this. What I have is one offer for one modern storage device for the PDP8E of solid state kind or similar. It's expensive and I must think about it seriously. I should agree any comment and offer related with this matter. Better for free :-) Regards Sergio From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 07:09:13 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 07:09:13 -0600 Subject: Amiga Slingshot In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c381001271354k5c796f35ibac19fe8d17564ff@mail.gmail.com> <4B60DD8A.4060807@jbrain.com> <6dbe3c381001272018ub4c1e81i22872c64dd0396f3@mail.gmail.com> <4B611D53.9060109@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001280509g3e744855p77053c08b2e84ebf@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 11:35 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > Isn't the side expansion slot of the 1000 and 500 flipped in orientation? > Anything that works in one would be upside down on the other? > > That's right. The expansion connector on the 500 and 1000 are electrically compatible, but since it's on the other side of the case and backwards, they can't share peripherals. The slingshot would work upside down though. Although you'd have a zorro card (possibly with a hard drive attached to it) hanging out in mid air on the 1000 whereas on the 500 it would be flat on the table. I guess that would mean the pro version would have the card upside down on the 1000, so you'd have to elevate the 1000 off the desk. The amiga has always had a cult following, but appears to have had a resurgance in popularity lately. There's a lot of hardware that goes for silly prices on ebay. Acclerators in particular go for crazy prices as do graphics related boards for the 2000. Recently, a former employee of GVP managed to buy the designs for their upgrade boards and start making them again: http://www.gvp-m.com/ The prices are reasonable if you compare them to the original new prices, but they're still more than what I would pay for an accelerator. If it were possible for someone to make accelerator boards and undercut these prices, you could sell a lot of hardware. Individual computers has also made some good hardware for the amiga. Although he (Jens) seems to be focusing on VGA adapters these days. There seems to be a definite shortage of love for the 1000 and 500 though. Most "new" hardware focuses on the 1200. There's plenty of used upgrades for the 2000 floating around. And Individual recently released a VGA board for the 500/1000/2000 seriese machines. But memory, hard drive, and processor upgrades for the 1000 and 500 are in very short supply and I think would sell very well. The slingshot could do the hard drive, or maybe the memory. There are zorro boards that had both, but I think they're less common. There were processor upgrades for the 500 that plugged into the expansion slot, but they're in very short supply as well and can sell for several hundred dollars on ebay for a 68030 board with disk and memory. brian From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jan 28 08:51:03 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 06:51:03 -0800 Subject: Code for programmer In-Reply-To: References: <4B5FA7EF.7090805@snarc.net>, , <4B5F5C83.25058.12A0C3B@cclist.sydex.com>, , Message-ID: Hi Christian Thanks, I just found that site as well after looking through a few hundred search results. I also saw a post by someone that seemed to think that the labtool-48 should also work with the PC-UPROG but I'm not as sure. I uploaded it anyway just to see if it did. The file PC-UPROG.ZIP comes with a nice file converter as well. It looks like it will convert most of the formats but it is not to clear there. There is one of the parameters that it doesn't describe. I'll have to play with it. It does at least do HEX to binary( not that writing such a program is too hard, I've done it a several times). It is nice to have all the converters in one program. I don't know if the programmer that I got even works. I'll check it out this weekend. I hope it does. I think it will be an upgrade from my EMP-10( that blow an buffer occational chip ). Dwight > Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 10:49:42 +0100 > From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Code for programmer > > On Wed, 27 Jan 2010, dwight elvey wrote: > > Does anyone have code for a PC-UPROG by Advantech? > > Yes, the most recent version in here: > http://support.elmark.com.pl/programatory/AEC/PCUPROG/pcuprog.zip > > Christian _________________________________________________________________ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390709/direct/01/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Jan 28 10:03:30 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 17:03:30 +0100 Subject: Looking for an SBUS CG3 501-1718 or 501-1909 In-Reply-To: <447176.3945.qm@web56208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <447176.3945.qm@web56208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20100128170330.956ce9b9.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 03:46:15 -0800 (PST) silvercreekvalley wrote: > For some reason the cg3 is the only card I could ever get > working with the sparcstation 1+. Later TGX cards, etc > wouldnt work. Yes. TGX and SS1+ are incompatible. (I dim remember they can be made compatible by installing the newest OBP ROM.) Any CG6 should work as well as GX (without T) as the GX is a souped up GC6. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jan 28 10:08:19 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 11:08:19 -0500 Subject: Looking for an SBUS CG3 501-1718 or 501-1909 In-Reply-To: <20100128170330.956ce9b9.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <447176.3945.qm@web56208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <20100128170330.956ce9b9.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Jan 28, 2010, at 11:03 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: >> For some reason the cg3 is the only card I could ever get >> working with the sparcstation 1+. Later TGX cards, etc >> wouldnt work. > > Yes. TGX and SS1+ are incompatible. (I dim remember they can be made > compatible by installing the newest OBP ROM.) Any CG6 should work as > well as GX (without T) as the GX is a souped up GC6. Waitaminute...is there a such thing as a CG6 that's *not* a GX? I'm pretty sure there isn't. A TGX (TurboGX) is a souped-up GX. (faster, more memory for higher resolutions, etc) I have a metric buttload of GX (not TGX) cards here if anyone needs them. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Jan 28 10:12:29 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 09:12:29 -0700 Subject: Amiga Slingshot In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381001280509g3e744855p77053c08b2e84ebf@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c381001271354k5c796f35ibac19fe8d17564ff@mail.gmail.com> <4B60DD8A.4060807@jbrain.com> <6dbe3c381001272018ub4c1e81i22872c64dd0396f3@mail.gmail.com> <4B611D53.9060109@atarimuseum.com> <6dbe3c381001280509g3e744855p77053c08b2e84ebf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B61B76D.9040802@e-bbes.com> Brian Lanning wrote: > > There seems to be a definite shortage of love for the 1000 and 500 though. Not really following the amigas to close, but I think the amiag500 got a little competition from the FPGA based minimig, where you can use standard vga screens, harddrive and floppy are replaced by sd-flash. for people, who just like to play some games, this thing is it. Cheers From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Jan 28 10:16:59 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 17:16:59 +0100 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <8597B991-DA5D-4838-912C-DBD0649CE05C@neurotica.com> References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CB46956-1778-4478-A932-3899AA67D392@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e1001261032j47a9fe7ak6b78b93b752f8b3c@mail.gmail.com> <66AD9588-0F02-4A9E-AA57-1C72D75D604B@neurotica.com> <20100127182620.2e2a455c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20100127200555.6bd55559.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <8597B991-DA5D-4838-912C-DBD0649CE05C@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20100128171659.1171785c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 15:51:45 -0500 Dave McGuire wrote: > Hey, I didn't say I had a problem with it. I know that you don't have problems with 8051. But I have. It is just an other shitty intel chip. Well. Is there at least one non-shitty intel chip? ;-) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 10:18:03 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 10:18:03 -0600 Subject: Amiga Slingshot In-Reply-To: <4B61B76D.9040802@e-bbes.com> References: <6dbe3c381001271354k5c796f35ibac19fe8d17564ff@mail.gmail.com> <4B60DD8A.4060807@jbrain.com> <6dbe3c381001272018ub4c1e81i22872c64dd0396f3@mail.gmail.com> <4B611D53.9060109@atarimuseum.com> <6dbe3c381001280509g3e744855p77053c08b2e84ebf@mail.gmail.com> <4B61B76D.9040802@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001280818t1721546fr4ef8aa9f8b1d393a@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 10:12 AM, e.stiebler wrote: > Brian Lanning wrote: > >> >> There seems to be a definite shortage of love for the 1000 and 500 though. >> > > Not really following the amigas to close, but I think the amiag500 got a > little competition from the FPGA based minimig, where you can use standard > vga screens, harddrive and floppy are replaced by sd-flash. > > for people, who just like to play some games, this thing is it. > I agree, it's been very popular and I wouldn't mind having one. I think there's a lot of people who prefer to play with the original hardware though. I think the minimig is great. But if I wanted to emulate, I'd probably just run WinUAE on a PC and save some money. brian From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jan 28 10:20:57 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 11:20:57 -0500 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <20100128171659.1171785c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CB46956-1778-4478-A932-3899AA67D392@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e1001261032j47a9fe7ak6b78b93b752f8b3c@mail.gmail.com> <66AD9588-0F02-4A9E-AA57-1C72D75D604B@neurotica.com> <20100127182620.2e2a455c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20100127200555.6bd55559.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <8597B991-DA5D-4838-912C-DBD0649CE05C@neurotica.com> <20100128171659.1171785c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4A91DFB2-E7FE-4FDF-A278-1C7377AB276D@neurotica.com> On Jan 28, 2010, at 11:16 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: >> Hey, I didn't say I had a problem with it. > > I know that you don't have problems with 8051. But I have. It is just > an other shitty intel chip. Well. Is there at least one non-shitty > intel chip? ;-) Sure...the i860, the i960, and (to me) the 8051. I'm partial to the 8085 too, but am more of a Z80 guy in that area. It's only really the x86 family that sucks, IMO. Well, it didn't suck so much in 1978, it just needed to die by, say, 1980 or so. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From keithvz at verizon.net Thu Jan 28 10:34:08 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 11:34:08 -0500 Subject: Amiga Slingshot In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381001280818t1721546fr4ef8aa9f8b1d393a@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c381001271354k5c796f35ibac19fe8d17564ff@mail.gmail.com> <4B60DD8A.4060807@jbrain.com> <6dbe3c381001272018ub4c1e81i22872c64dd0396f3@mail.gmail.com> <4B611D53.9060109@atarimuseum.com> <6dbe3c381001280509g3e744855p77053c08b2e84ebf@mail.gmail.com> <4B61B76D.9040802@e-bbes.com> <6dbe3c381001280818t1721546fr4ef8aa9f8b1d393a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B61BC80.5050500@verizon.net> Brian Lanning wrote: > On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 10:12 AM, e.stiebler wrote: > >> Brian Lanning wrote: >> >>> There seems to be a definite shortage of love for the 1000 and 500 though. >>> >> Not really following the amigas to close, but I think the amiag500 got a >> little competition from the FPGA based minimig, where you can use standard >> vga screens, harddrive and floppy are replaced by sd-flash. >> >> for people, who just like to play some games, this thing is it. >> > > I agree, it's been very popular and I wouldn't mind having one. I think > there's a lot of people who prefer to play with the original hardware > though. I think the minimig is great. But if I wanted to emulate, I'd > probably just run WinUAE on a PC and save some money. > > brian I've got a minimig, but I really wouldn't consider the minimig competition. I definitely like using the original A500 hardware with my 68030 accelerator, 3mb of ram (2mb 32-bit fastram, 1 meg chip), and external IDE harddrive(s). My biggest fear is turning on the machine and either the accelerator card failing, or the IDE interface going. I've got the harddrive imaged, so there's no fear of losing data. I would happily buy a new IDE interface/memory/accelerator/vga scandoubler-thing. The other models don't really do it for me. Keith From ray at arachelian.com Thu Jan 28 10:38:51 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 11:38:51 -0500 Subject: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <4B60802E.5010308@philpem.me.uk> References: , , , , , , , , <4B6054A2.6030405@philpem.me.uk> <4FD87621-8AAC-4B1D-8C80-8388570D6F01@neurotica.com> <4B60802E.5010308@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4B61BD9B.4060403@arachelian.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: >> Well to be fair, IDE didn't exactly replace SCSI. ;) And, >> interestingly, it's starting to look like SCSI drives will still be >> produced after IDE drives are no longer being made. > > Also bear in mind -- the USB Mass Storage protocol stack is > essentially a USB wrapper for the SCSI command set. SCSI is going to > leave its mark for a long time to come. Heck, ATAPI (usually used for > CD/DVD drive interfacing) is basically "SCSI over ATA"... > > SATA is PATA-over-serial-link, so I guess that makes ATAPI+SATA > SCSI-over-PATA-over-serial-link. Layers, so many layers... > Even more fun is SAS, which is serial attached scsi. So that may seem like it's not that big of a deal, but some SAS controllers can actually be attached to SATA drives with the right splitter cables... Which of course could be external, and could be CD/DVD drives... And even better, they might just be shared over TCP/IP via iSCSI... :) So there you go, even more layers, and in this case, recursively so. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 10:30:52 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 14:30:52 -0200 Subject: Amiga Slingshot References: <6dbe3c381001271354k5c796f35ibac19fe8d17564ff@mail.gmail.com><4B60DD8A.4060807@jbrain.com><6dbe3c381001272018ub4c1e81i22872c64dd0396f3@mail.gmail.com><4B611D53.9060109@atarimuseum.com> <6dbe3c381001280509g3e744855p77053c08b2e84ebf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2aad01caa038$6f1f85b0$0101a8c0@Alexandre> > The amiga has always had a cult following, but appears to have had a > resurgance in popularity lately. There's a lot of hardware that goes for > silly prices on ebay. Acclerators in particular go for crazy prices as do > graphics related boards for the 2000. Any shit that is old now is being seem for silly prices on ebay. Unfortunately. > Recently, a former employee of GVP managed to buy the designs for their > upgrade boards and start making them again: > http://www.gvp-m.com/ :oD > The prices are reasonable if you compare them to the original new prices, > but they're still more than what I would pay for an accelerator. If it > were :o( A nice expansion chassis for 1000 and 500's would be great... ;o) From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jan 28 10:45:00 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 11:45:00 -0500 Subject: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <4B61BD9B.4060403@arachelian.com> References: , , , , , , , , <4B6054A2.6030405@philpem.me.uk> <4FD87621-8AAC-4B1D-8C80-8388570D6F01@neurotica.com> <4B60802E.5010308@philpem.me.uk> <4B61BD9B.4060403@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <108E1FA8-3C9F-4466-9EF6-3361ED6C8635@neurotica.com> On Jan 28, 2010, at 11:38 AM, Ray Arachelian wrote: >>> Well to be fair, IDE didn't exactly replace SCSI. ;) And, >>> interestingly, it's starting to look like SCSI drives will still be >>> produced after IDE drives are no longer being made. >> >> Also bear in mind -- the USB Mass Storage protocol stack is >> essentially a USB wrapper for the SCSI command set. SCSI is going to >> leave its mark for a long time to come. Heck, ATAPI (usually used for >> CD/DVD drive interfacing) is basically "SCSI over ATA"... >> >> SATA is PATA-over-serial-link, so I guess that makes ATAPI+SATA >> SCSI-over-PATA-over-serial-link. Layers, so many layers... >> > Even more fun is SAS, which is serial attached scsi. So that may seem > like it's not that big of a deal, but some SAS controllers can > actually > be attached to SATA drives with the right splitter cables... I'm pretty sure *all* SAS controllers can be attached to SATA drives. If I understand correctly, SAS is a superset of SATA. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Jan 28 10:50:19 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 17:50:19 +0100 Subject: Looking for an SBUS CG3 501-1718 or 501-1909 In-Reply-To: References: <447176.3945.qm@web56208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <20100128170330.956ce9b9.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20100128175019.d3c31e8a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 11:08:19 -0500 Dave McGuire wrote: > Waitaminute...is there a such thing as a CG6 that's *not* a GX? AFAIK the difference GX vs. CG6 is only in the implementation and naming. (Like dual and single slot CG6.) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 10:52:36 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 10:52:36 -0600 Subject: Amiga Slingshot In-Reply-To: <4B61BC80.5050500@verizon.net> References: <6dbe3c381001271354k5c796f35ibac19fe8d17564ff@mail.gmail.com> <4B60DD8A.4060807@jbrain.com> <6dbe3c381001272018ub4c1e81i22872c64dd0396f3@mail.gmail.com> <4B611D53.9060109@atarimuseum.com> <6dbe3c381001280509g3e744855p77053c08b2e84ebf@mail.gmail.com> <4B61B76D.9040802@e-bbes.com> <6dbe3c381001280818t1721546fr4ef8aa9f8b1d393a@mail.gmail.com> <4B61BC80.5050500@verizon.net> Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001280852m2a34e47aobcb65e2563163b@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 10:34 AM, Keith wrote: > I would happily buy a new IDE interface/memory/accelerator/vga > scandoubler-thing. > > All of those could work through the expansion connector (or wedged under the 68000 like the mega midget racer boards) except for the scan doubler. That has to go in the denise socket. Individual makes a board that does that. It's about $150. Jens does good work. I have the analogous board for my 1200. But I have a 20" studio monitor that works great with the amigas, so I'll just continue to use that. I'd like to have three of those vga boards for the 500, 600, and 2000 though. > The other models don't really do it for me. > I had a 500 originally. I worked for a year and a half at minimum wage to buy it back in 1987. My parents wouldn't help me pay for it because they thought it was a glorified video game machine. And besides, I already had a computer (an IBM 5150 with 128k ram, 1 functioning floppy drive, a cheesy word processor, and that high persistence monochrome monitor). :-/ I really wanted a 2000 though. So I have one now. I've also had a lot of fun playing with the 1200. brian From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Jan 28 11:06:46 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 10:06:46 -0700 Subject: Amiga Slingshot In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381001280818t1721546fr4ef8aa9f8b1d393a@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c381001271354k5c796f35ibac19fe8d17564ff@mail.gmail.com> <4B60DD8A.4060807@jbrain.com> <6dbe3c381001272018ub4c1e81i22872c64dd0396f3@mail.gmail.com> <4B611D53.9060109@atarimuseum.com> <6dbe3c381001280509g3e744855p77053c08b2e84ebf@mail.gmail.com> <4B61B76D.9040802@e-bbes.com> <6dbe3c381001280818t1721546fr4ef8aa9f8b1d393a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B61C426.4050301@e-bbes.com> Brian Lanning wrote: > [MINIMIG] > I agree, it's been very popular and I wouldn't mind having one. I think > there's a lot of people who prefer to play with the original hardware > though. I think the minimig is great. But if I wanted to emulate, I'd > probably just run WinUAE on a PC and save some money. Sorry, disagree here (at least a little) ;-) Minimig is nicer and better than a WinUAE, because it is a self contained system, which doesn't need patches all the time. Like to original, you just switch it on, and play. Cheers From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Jan 28 11:09:07 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 10:09:07 -0700 Subject: Amiga Slingshot In-Reply-To: <4B61BC80.5050500@verizon.net> References: <6dbe3c381001271354k5c796f35ibac19fe8d17564ff@mail.gmail.com> <4B60DD8A.4060807@jbrain.com> <6dbe3c381001272018ub4c1e81i22872c64dd0396f3@mail.gmail.com> <4B611D53.9060109@atarimuseum.com> <6dbe3c381001280509g3e744855p77053c08b2e84ebf@mail.gmail.com> <4B61B76D.9040802@e-bbes.com> <6dbe3c381001280818t1721546fr4ef8aa9f8b1d393a@mail.gmail.com> <4B61BC80.5050500@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B61C4B3.40101@e-bbes.com> Keith wrote: > I've got a minimig, but I really wouldn't consider the minimig > competition. I definitely like using the original A500 hardware with my > 68030 accelerator, 3mb of ram (2mb 32-bit fastram, 1 meg chip), and > external IDE harddrive(s). My biggest fear is turning on the machine > and either the accelerator card failing, or the IDE interface going. Probably it changes for you, as soon as the 68030 minimigs are out ? ;-) > I've got the harddrive imaged, so there's no fear of losing data. Which is even easier, if all your data is on a memory stick ? Cheers From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 11:41:34 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 11:41:34 -0600 Subject: Amiga Slingshot In-Reply-To: <4B61C4B3.40101@e-bbes.com> References: <6dbe3c381001271354k5c796f35ibac19fe8d17564ff@mail.gmail.com> <4B60DD8A.4060807@jbrain.com> <6dbe3c381001272018ub4c1e81i22872c64dd0396f3@mail.gmail.com> <4B611D53.9060109@atarimuseum.com> <6dbe3c381001280509g3e744855p77053c08b2e84ebf@mail.gmail.com> <4B61B76D.9040802@e-bbes.com> <6dbe3c381001280818t1721546fr4ef8aa9f8b1d393a@mail.gmail.com> <4B61BC80.5050500@verizon.net> <4B61C4B3.40101@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001280941k768d58a7qf57a797b1cb8c304@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 11:09 AM, e.stiebler wrote: > I've got the harddrive imaged, so there's no fear of losing data. > > Which is even easier, if all your data is on a memory stick ? > I've got my 2000 and 1200 on CF ide adapters. It's fast, quiet, and works great. You can also pull it out and plug it into your desktop and use WinUAE to format and set up the OS, copy files over. brian From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Jan 28 11:44:11 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:44:11 -0500 Subject: Tricord Servers???? In-Reply-To: <20100128175019.d3c31e8a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <447176.3945.qm@web56208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <20100128170330.956ce9b9.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20100128175019.d3c31e8a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4B61CCEB.1020306@atarimuseum.com> Hi, Anyone out there collect Tricord Servers? I used to install and work on these back around 95', did work on a couple of ES7000 and ES8000 systems at Newsday and Scherring-Plough. I was just remembering them today, and figured I'd see if anyone had any of them. They are fairly big sized units, about 3-4' tall, 19" wide styled cabinet, their motherboards were rather unique and in a sense, weird too, like how the card cage was accessed via the back and underneath the mainboard and such... Let me know if anyone collects these, thanks. Curt From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 28 11:54:11 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 10:54:11 -0700 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <20100128171659.1171785c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CB46956-1778-4478-A932-3899AA67D392@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e1001261032j47a9fe7ak6b78b93b752f8b3c@mail.gmail.com> <66AD9588-0F02-4A9E-AA57-1C72D75D604B@neurotica.com> <20100127182620.2e2a455c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20100127200555.6bd55559.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <8597B991-DA5D-4838-912C-DBD0649CE05C@neurotica.com> <20100128171659.1171785c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4B61CF43.4050601@jetnet.ab.ca> Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 15:51:45 -0500 > Dave McGuire wrote: > >> Hey, I didn't say I had a problem with it. > I know that you don't have problems with 8051. But I have. It is just > an other shitty intel chip. Well. Is there at least one non-shitty > intel chip? ;-) I can not think of any.The 8085 is the only 1/2 good chip I can think of other than 8051's. Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 28 12:00:46 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 11:00:46 -0700 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <4A91DFB2-E7FE-4FDF-A278-1C7377AB276D@neurotica.com> References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CB46956-1778-4478-A932-3899AA67D392@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e1001261032j47a9fe7ak6b78b93b752f8b3c@mail.gmail.com> <66AD9588-0F02-4A9E-AA57-1C72D75D604B@neurotica.com> <20100127182620.2e2a455c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20100127200555.6bd55559.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <8597B991-DA5D-4838-912C-DBD0649CE05C@neurotica.com> <20100128171659.1171785c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4A91DFB2-E7FE-4FDF-A278-1C7377AB276D@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B61D0CE.8060801@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > It's only really the x86 family that sucks, IMO. Well, it didn't suck so > much in 1978, it just needed to die by, say, 1980 or so. But looking now at history, Intel did not have a working 16/32 bit design at that time. That x86 was just a hack that worked well with the blessing of IBM. It seems only Motorola thought of 'home' computing more with 6809. Everything larger seems to have been designed to replace the mini-computer/main-frame market. > > -Dave > Ben. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 28 12:11:59 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 10:11:59 -0800 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <4B61D0CE.8060801@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com>, <4A91DFB2-E7FE-4FDF-A278-1C7377AB276D@neurotica.com>, <4B61D0CE.8060801@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4B6162EF.23276.50AB8C@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Jan 2010 at 11:00, Ben wrote: > But looking now at history, Intel did not have a working 16/32 bit > design at that time. That x86 was just a hack that worked well with > the blessing of IBM. It seems only Motorola thought of 'home' > computing more with 6809. Everything larger seems to have been > designed to replace the mini-computer/main-frame market. The 8086, as I recall, was intended to be a stopgap product until the 432 could be shipped in quantity. I do recall our Intel sales guy pitching how great the 432 was going to be at the time. When we saw the initial prices for the chipset (calling the 432 a "single chip microcomputer" ISTR, was a misnomer), our jaws hit the floor. Perhaps the 432 was "too much too soon". Nowadays, it'd probably be possible to implement it in a large FPGA. --Chuck From dbetz at xlisper.com Thu Jan 28 12:18:58 2010 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 13:18:58 -0500 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <4B61D0CE.8060801@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CB46956-1778-4478-A932-3899AA67D392@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e1001261032j47a9fe7ak6b78b93b752f8b3c@mail.gmail.com> <66AD9588-0F02-4A9E-AA57-1C72D75D604B@neurotica.com> <20100127182620.2e2a455c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20100127200555.6bd55559.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <8597B991-DA5D-4838-912C-DBD0649CE05C@neurotica.com> <20100128171659.1171785c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4A91DFB2-E7FE-4FDF-A278-1C7377AB276D@neurotica.com> <4B61D0CE.8060801@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <57EBA5B3-BC1D-423F-BF8D-89680CF64769@xlisper.com> On Jan 28, 2010, at 1:00 PM, Ben wrote: > It seems only Motorola thought of 'home' computing > more with 6809. I always wanted to program the 6809. I have a SWTPc 6800/6809 system that I built but I never fleshed it out with a disk drive and OS. Does anyone make a 6809 SBC that will run OS-9 these days? From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Jan 28 12:23:46 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 11:23:46 -0700 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <4B6162EF.23276.50AB8C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com>, <4A91DFB2-E7FE-4FDF-A278-1C7377AB276D@neurotica.com>, <4B61D0CE.8060801@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B6162EF.23276.50AB8C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B61D632.7090207@e-bbes.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > The 8086, as I recall, was intended to be a stopgap product until the > 432 could be shipped in quantity. They tried so many times to kill this bastard ... iapx432, i860 (not sure if they really tried, titanic, didn't work out either I do recall our Intel sales guy > pitching how great the 432 was going to be at the time. When we saw > the initial prices for the chipset (calling the 432 a "single chip > microcomputer" ISTR, was a misnomer), our jaws hit the floor. When it was presented to us, I was just amazed that they compared it to our 11/780 which could be easily replaced by the iapx432. They only need a few of them > Perhaps the 432 was "too much too soon". Nowadays, it'd probably be > possible to implement it in a large FPGA. It should definitely fit in a mid-size FPGA, but is there really any software out there for it ? From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Jan 28 12:28:01 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 11:28:01 -0700 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <57EBA5B3-BC1D-423F-BF8D-89680CF64769@xlisper.com> References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CB46956-1778-4478-A932-3899AA67D392@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e1001261032j47a9fe7ak6b78b93b752f8b3c@mail.gmail.com> <66AD9588-0F02-4A9E-AA57-1C72D75D604B@neurotica.com> <20100127182620.2e2a455c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20100127200555.6bd55559.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <8597B991-DA5D-4838-912C-DBD0649CE05C@neurotica.com> <20100128171659.1171785c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4A91DFB2-E7FE-4FDF-A278-1C7377AB276D@neurotica.com> <4B61D0CE.8060801@jetnet.ab.ca> <57EBA5B3-BC1D-423F-BF8D-89680CF64769@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <4B61D731.907@e-bbes.com> David Betz wrote: > On Jan 28, 2010, at 1:00 PM, Ben wrote: > >> It seems only Motorola thought of 'home' computing >> more with 6809. > > I always wanted to program the 6809. I have a SWTPc 6800/6809 system that I built but I never fleshed it out with a disk drive and OS. Does anyone make a 6809 SBC that will run OS-9 these days? I think there is one hiding on : http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem Or take a cheap FPGA kit, there is the system09, which runs a lot of software in the meantime From brain at jbrain.com Thu Jan 28 12:29:45 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (brain at jbrain.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 18:29:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amiga Slingshot In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381001280509g3e744855p77053c08b2e84ebf@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c381001271354k5c796f35ibac19fe8d17564ff@mail.gmail.com> <4B60DD8A.4060807@jbrain.com> <6dbe3c381001272018ub4c1e81i22872c64dd0396f3@mail.gmail.com> <4B611D53.9060109@atarimuseum.com> <6dbe3c381001280509g3e744855p77053c08b2e84ebf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1010128025.281572.1264703385731.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxusltgw09.schlund.de> On January 28, 2010 at 1:09 PM Brian Lanning wrote: > That's right.? The expansion connector on the 500 and 1000 are electrically > compatible, but since it's on the other side of the case and backwards, they > can't share peripherals. It wouldn't be too much of an issue to make a "flipper" for that issue.? Would there be any value on allowing 500 peripherals on the A1000 or vice versa? > The slingshot would work upside down though.? Although you'd have a zorro > card (possibly with a hard drive attached to it) hanging out in mid air on > the 1000 whereas on the 500 it would be flat on the table.? I guess that > would mean the pro version would have the card upside down on the 1000, so > you'd have to elevate the 1000 off the desk. What I don't understand with the designs is why the Slingshot puts the right angle connectors on the "bottom" of the board?? I noticed on the pics that what I would call the "bottom" of the design (the part where all the solder pads are, is labeled "this side up".? As well, anyone know why the design doesn't just use normal connectors that straddle the board edge?? Right angle connectors are almost always more expensive to buy as opposed to straights. I'm not saying the design is bad, mind you, just trying to understand why the choices were made. Jim From dbetz at xlisper.com Thu Jan 28 12:40:03 2010 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 13:40:03 -0500 Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: <4B61D731.907@e-bbes.com> References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CB46956-1778-4478-A932-3899AA67D392@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e1001261032j47a9fe7ak6b78b93b752f8b3c@mail.gmail.com> <66AD9588-0F02-4A9E-AA57-1C72D75D604B@neurotica.com> <20100127182620.2e2a455c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20100127200555.6bd55559.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <8597B991-DA5D-4838-912C-DBD0649CE05C@neurotica.com> <20100128171659.1171785c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4A91DFB2-E7FE-4FDF-A278-1C7377AB276D@neurotica.com> <4B61D0CE.8060801@jetnet.ab.ca> <57EBA5B3-BC1D-423F-BF8D-89680CF64769@xlisper.com> <4B61D731.907@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <1EA52674-F26F-4783-9889-80FEBFDC0F0C@xlisper.com> On Jan 28, 2010, at 1:28 PM, e.stiebler wrote: > David Betz wrote: >> On Jan 28, 2010, at 1:00 PM, Ben wrote: >>> It seems only Motorola thought of 'home' computing >>> more with 6809. >> I always wanted to program the 6809. I have a SWTPc 6800/6809 system that I built but I never fleshed it out with a disk drive and OS. Does anyone make a 6809 SBC that will run OS-9 these days? > > I think there is one hiding on : > > http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem I checked this out a while ago but I think it is just a 6809 coprocessor board that only works with their Z80 board. > > Or take a cheap FPGA kit, there is the system09, which runs a lot of software in the meantime Thanks for the suggestion but I was hoping for something actually had a 6809 chip on it. From keithvz at verizon.net Thu Jan 28 12:48:44 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 13:48:44 -0500 Subject: Amiga Slingshot In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381001280941k768d58a7qf57a797b1cb8c304@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c381001271354k5c796f35ibac19fe8d17564ff@mail.gmail.com> <4B60DD8A.4060807@jbrain.com> <6dbe3c381001272018ub4c1e81i22872c64dd0396f3@mail.gmail.com> <4B611D53.9060109@atarimuseum.com> <6dbe3c381001280509g3e744855p77053c08b2e84ebf@mail.gmail.com> <4B61B76D.9040802@e-bbes.com> <6dbe3c381001280818t1721546fr4ef8aa9f8b1d393a@mail.gmail.com> <4B61BC80.5050500@verizon.net> <4B61C4B3.40101@e-bbes.com> <6dbe3c381001280941k768d58a7qf57a797b1cb8c304@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B61DC0C.1060608@verizon.net> Brian Lanning wrote: > On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 11:09 AM, e.stiebler wrote: > >> I've got the harddrive imaged, so there's no fear of losing data. >> >> Which is even easier, if all your data is on a memory stick ? >> > > I've got my 2000 and 1200 on CF ide adapters. It's fast, quiet, and works > great. You can also pull it out and plug it into your desktop and use > WinUAE to format and set up the OS, copy files over. > > brian I tried a IDE<->CF adapter in my A500. It works, and that's actually how I ended up imaging my harddrive. I used tsgui to create the HD images. Nice program. I had several problems with mounting the card directly within WINUAE. I think the DataFlyer IDE controller swaps bytes, so all of my dd's needed conv=swab as an option when imaging. Then the byte-swapped images would mount under winuae correctly. It definitely isn't convenient to use with this limitation. This may be different from A2000/A1200 controller. Keith From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 28 12:50:35 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 11:50:35 -0700 Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: <1EA52674-F26F-4783-9889-80FEBFDC0F0C@xlisper.com> References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CB46956-1778-4478-A932-3899AA67D392@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e1001261032j47a9fe7ak6b78b93b752f8b3c@mail.gmail.com> <66AD9588-0F02-4A9E-AA57-1C72D75D604B@neurotica.com> <20100127182620.2e2a455c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20100127200555.6bd55559.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <8597B991-DA5D-4838-912C-DBD0649CE05C@neurotica.com> <20100128171659.1171785c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4A91DFB2-E7FE-4FDF-A278-1C7377AB276D@neurotica.com> <4B61D0CE.8060801@jetnet.ab.ca> <57EBA5B3-BC1D-423F-BF8D-89680CF64769@xlisper.com> <4B61D731.907@e-bbes.com> <1EA52674-F26F-4783-9889-80FEBFDC0F0C@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <4B61DC7B.6050303@jetnet.ab.ca> David Betz wrote: > Thanks for the suggestion but I was hoping for something actually had > a 6809 chip on it. It is too bad, you have zillions of 6502 projects out there, but not a one 6809 cpu board. The really hard part is finding a IDE interface. OS9 is modular so all you should have to change is the driver code. Ben. PS. Google for Nintro 9, I think a open source version of OS.9. PPS. I still think you can by COCO III's. From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Jan 28 12:50:53 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 11:50:53 -0700 Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: <1EA52674-F26F-4783-9889-80FEBFDC0F0C@xlisper.com> References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CB46956-1778-4478-A932-3899AA67D392@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e1001261032j47a9fe7ak6b78b93b752f8b3c@mail.gmail.com> <66AD9588-0F02-4A9E-AA57-1C72D75D604B@neurotica.com> <20100127182620.2e2a455c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20100127200555.6bd55559.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <8597B991-DA5D-4838-912C-DBD0649CE05C@neurotica.com> <20100128171659.1171785c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4A91DFB2-E7FE-4FDF-A278-1C7377AB276D@neurotica.com> <4B61D0CE.8060801@jetnet.ab.ca> <57EBA5B3-BC1D-423F-BF8D-89680CF64769@xlisper.com> <4B61D731.907@e-bbes.com> <1EA52674-F26F-4783-9889-80FEBFDC0F0C@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <4B61DC8D.9040308@e-bbes.com> David Betz wrote: > > Thanks for the suggestion but I was hoping for something actually had a 6809 chip on it. If it doesn't have to be an SBC the TRS COCO ran it ... From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 28 12:55:27 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 18:55:27 +0000 Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: <1EA52674-F26F-4783-9889-80FEBFDC0F0C@xlisper.com> References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CB46956-1778-4478-A932-3899AA67D392@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e1001261032j47a9fe7ak6b78b93b752f8b3c@mail.gmail.com> <66AD9588-0F02-4A9E-AA57-1C72D75D604B@neurotica.com> <20100127182620.2e2a455c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20100127200555.6bd55559.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <8597B991-DA5D-4838-912C-DBD0649CE05C@neurotica.com> <20100128171659.1171785c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4A91DFB2-E7FE-4FDF-A278-1C7377AB276D@neurotica.com> <4B61D0CE.8060801@jetnet.ab.ca> <57EBA5B3-BC1D-423F-BF8D-89680CF64769@xlisper.com> <4B61D731.907@e-bbes.com> <1EA52674-F26F-4783-9889-80FEBFDC0F0C@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <4B61DD9F.7080705@aurigae.demon.co.uk> David Betz wrote: > On Jan 28, 2010, at 1:28 PM, e.stiebler wrote: Thanks for the > suggestion but I was hoping for something actually had a 6809 chip on > it. Depending where you are in the world, you might be able to pick up a Tandy Colour Computer or a Dragon 32/64 for a reasonable price. Ok not quite single board...... Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Thu Jan 28 12:55:06 2010 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 10:55:06 -0800 Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: <1EA52674-F26F-4783-9889-80FEBFDC0F0C@xlisper.com> References: <4b61d0ce.8060801@jetnet.ab.ca> <8cb46956-1778-4478-a932-3899aa67d392@neurotica.com> <8597b991-da5d-4838-912c-dbd0649ce05c@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e1001261032j47a9fe7ak6b78b93b752f8b3c@mail.gmail.com> <66ad9588-0f02-4a9e-aa57-1c72d75d604b@neurotica.com> <57eba5b3-bc1d-423f-bf8d-89680cf64769@xlisper.com> <20100127182620.2e2a455c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20100127200555.6bd55559.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20100128171659.1171785c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201001261444.o0qeieiv011146@floodgap.com> <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4b61d731.907@e-bbes.com> <4a91dfb2-e7fe-4fdf-a278-1c7377ab276d@neurotica.com> Message-ID: If you are interested in getting your SwTPc working, try: http://www.flexusergroup.com/flexusergroup/default.htm Some nice 6800/6809 people there . . . . Jeff > -----Original Message----- > From: dbetz at xlisper.com > Sent: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 13:40:03 -0500 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) > > On Jan 28, 2010, at 1:28 PM, e.stiebler wrote: > >> David Betz wrote: >>> On Jan 28, 2010, at 1:00 PM, Ben wrote: >>>> It seems only Motorola thought of 'home' computing >>>> more with 6809. >>> I always wanted to program the 6809. I have a SWTPc 6800/6809 system >>> that I built but I never fleshed it out with a disk drive and OS. Does >>> anyone make a 6809 SBC that will run OS-9 these days? >> >> I think there is one hiding on : >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem > > I checked this out a while ago but I think it is just a 6809 coprocessor > board that only works with their Z80 board. > >> >> Or take a cheap FPGA kit, there is the system09, which runs a lot of >> software in the meantime > > Thanks for the suggestion but I was hoping for something actually had a > 6809 chip on it. ____________________________________________________________ FREE 3D MARINE AQUARIUM SCREENSAVER - Watch dolphins, sharks & orcas on your desktop! Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/marineaquarium From dbetz at xlisper.com Thu Jan 28 12:57:50 2010 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 13:57:50 -0500 Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: <4B61DD9F.7080705@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CB46956-1778-4478-A932-3899AA67D392@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e1001261032j47a9fe7ak6b78b93b752f8b3c@mail.gmail.com> <66AD9588-0F02-4A9E-AA57-1C72D75D604B@neurotica.com> <20100127182620.2e2a455c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20100127200555.6bd55559.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <8597B991-DA5D-4838-912C-DBD0649CE05C@neurotica.com> <20100128171659.1171785c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4A91DFB2-E7FE-4FDF-A278-1C7377AB276D@neurotica.com> <4B61D0CE.8060801@jetnet.ab.ca> <57EBA5B3-BC1D-423F-BF8D-89680CF64769@xlisper.com> <4B61D731.907@e-bbes.com> <1EA52674-F26F-4783-9889-80FEBFDC0F0C@xlisper.com> <4B61DD9F.7080705@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Jan 28, 2010, at 1:55 PM, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > David Betz wrote: >> On Jan 28, 2010, at 1:28 PM, e.stiebler wrote: Thanks for the >> suggestion but I was hoping for something actually had a 6809 chip on >> it. > > Depending where you are in the world, you might be able to pick up a > Tandy Colour Computer or a Dragon 32/64 for a reasonable price. > > Ok not quite single board...... I had a COCO 3 once. Unfortunately, I gave it away. Bad move! From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 13:04:05 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 13:04:05 -0600 Subject: Amiga Slingshot In-Reply-To: <1010128025.281572.1264703385731.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxusltgw09.schlund.de> References: <6dbe3c381001271354k5c796f35ibac19fe8d17564ff@mail.gmail.com> <4B60DD8A.4060807@jbrain.com> <6dbe3c381001272018ub4c1e81i22872c64dd0396f3@mail.gmail.com> <4B611D53.9060109@atarimuseum.com> <6dbe3c381001280509g3e744855p77053c08b2e84ebf@mail.gmail.com> <1010128025.281572.1264703385731.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxusltgw09.schlund.de> Message-ID: <6dbe3c381001281104g29b6cc93k5f1f8dfac4b861a0@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 12:29 PM, brain at jbrain.com wrote: > > On January 28, 2010 at 1:09 PM Brian Lanning > wrote: > > That's right. The expansion connector on the 500 and 1000 are > electrically > > compatible, but since it's on the other side of the case and backwards, > they > > can't share peripherals. > It wouldn't be too much of an issue to make a "flipper" for that issue. > Would > there be any value on allowing 500 peripherals on the A1000 or vice versa? > Definitely. I'm not interested in 1000s, but the 1000 almost has its own cult following. And hard drives for that are probably even harder to find. A slingshot would allow the amiga A2091 scsi board (among many others) to be plugged into either machine. It would also allow the more recent Buddha ide controller to be used. There's also a usb 2.0 controller called Deneb that would work in this case also, although that requires a 68030 or better. Right now, the only hard drive options for 1000 users is something that goes in the 68000 socket (I believe there were some expensive accelerators that had scsi controllers) or an ide adapter that is now no longer available. It's too bad we can't get two slots out of this. Both the 500 and 1000 need more memory and a hard disk controller. There are boards out there that have both, but since the 2000 had plenty of slots, most solutions were two separate boards. The separate boards are much more plentiful. If it's easy to add a simm socket to this, that would make it a lot more interesting and useful. I'm not sure if you need a bus controller (buster) for that. That ide controller I linked to in the first email should be cheap to make also, and it would free the slingshot for other things, like scsi, audio boards, or more memory. > > > The slingshot would work upside down though. Although you'd have a zorro > > card (possibly with a hard drive attached to it) hanging out in mid air > on > > the 1000 whereas on the 500 it would be flat on the table. I guess that > > would mean the pro version would have the card upside down on the 1000, > so > > you'd have to elevate the 1000 off the desk. > What I don't understand with the designs is why the Slingshot puts the > right > angle connectors on the "bottom" of the board? I noticed on the pics that > what > I would call the "bottom" of the design (the part where all the solder pads > are, > is labeled "this side up". As well, anyone know why the design doesn't > just use > normal connectors that straddle the board edge? Right angle connectors are > almost always more expensive to buy as opposed to straights. > I'm not saying the design is bad, mind you, just trying to understand why > the > choices were made. > It's upside down for the 500 and right side up for the 1000 (or maybe the other way around). It could have been that this was originally designed before the 500 was produced, and just happened to work upsidedown on the 500 when that came out? I'm not sure. I'd label it clearly though. Putting a card in a zorro slot backwards results in magic smoke. I'm not sure why they used right angles. Maybe to make it compatible with solder baths? Or maybe they just got a good deal on the connectors. Apparently there's plans for the slingshot on aminet. I'll try to locate them when I get home tonight. brian From rborsuk at colourfull.com Thu Jan 28 13:10:32 2010 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 14:10:32 -0500 Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: <4B61DC7B.6050303@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CB46956-1778-4478-A932-3899AA67D392@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e1001261032j47a9fe7ak6b78b93b752f8b3c@mail.gmail.com> <66AD9588-0F02-4A9E-AA57-1C72D75D604B@neurotica.com> <20100127182620.2e2a455c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20100127200555.6bd55559.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <8597B991-DA5D-4838-912C-DBD0649CE05C@neurotica.com> <20100128171659.1171785c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4A91DFB2-E7FE-4FDF-A278-1C7377AB276D@neurotica.com> <4B61D0CE.8060801@jetnet.ab.ca> <57EBA5B3-BC1D-423F-BF8D-89680CF64769@xlisper.com> <4B61D731.907@e-bbes.com> <1EA52674-F26F-4783-9889-80FEBFDC0F0C@xlisper.com> <4B61DC7B.6050303@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3D3E3B46-8E4C-4428-B989-D60939DDFDAF@colourfull.com> You could do (or find) a motorola mono-board. They made both a 6800 and a 6809 version. You can grab the schematic and manual off of bitsavers under motorola. Rob On Jan 28, 2010, at 1:50 PM, Ben wrote: > David Betz wrote: > >> Thanks for the suggestion but I was hoping for something actually had >> a 6809 chip on it. > > It is too bad, you have zillions of 6502 projects out there, but > not a one 6809 cpu board. The really hard part is finding a > IDE interface. OS9 is modular so all you should have to change is > the driver code. Ben. > PS. Google for Nintro 9, I think a open source version of OS.9. > PPS. I still think you can by COCO III's. > > > Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Thu Jan 28 13:11:41 2010 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 11:11:41 -0800 Subject: Compaq Portable II fails to boot - some analysis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sometime ago I posted a request for help on my two Compaq Portable IIs that failed to boot from the FDD. I now can boot one using an "off the shelf" (at Weird Stuff) half height 360 kB FDD in place of either of the two Canon 5201 1/3 height FDDs that were in the two Portable IIs. Both exhibit the same failure mode, while trying to read the disk visibly spins erratically, as if there were some form of stiction causing it to go slower and then faster. Manually turning it with and without a disk, the spindle motor feels free of stiction. It is surprising to me to find both Canon 1/3 height FDDs fail in the same mode, suggesting a fundamental flaw in the design. For example, the full height and half heights I used in this project are older than the Canon's, of unknown provenance, but all 5 have worked flawlessly. Any ideas, other than avoid old Canon 1/3 height FDs? Anyone have a working 1/3 height 360 kB Canon FD? (I think I need Canon to get the bezel right on the machine I am "restoring"). Tom PS: I bought a package of 20 360 kB FDs off the internet and one of my problems was that about 1/2 of them were full of defects, causing some of my problems. I finally solved that problem by throwing away any disk with any defect found during Format and doing a Diskcomp after each Diskcopy. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Jan 28 13:39:45 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 11:39:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Compaq Portable II fails to boot - some analysis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <954649.10034.qm@web52606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 1/28/10, Tom Gardner wrote: > Both exhibit the same failure > mode, while trying to > read the disk visibly spins erratically, as if there were > some form of > stiction causing it to go slower and then faster. > Manually turning it with > and without a disk, the spindle motor feels free of > stiction. I had a standard half height floppy drive in a Compaq Portable 286 that did something similar. I found that the glue holding the magnetic ring into the metal "puck" on the motor had come loose. Removing the center screw (careful, it's left-hand thread!) will allow you to take off the puck. Inside, there should be a magnetic ring glued into place. In my case, that ring was loose, and dragging against the board. A little super glue and it was good as new. Perhaps yours is crooked, but not dragging on the baord yet? > > Anyone have a working 1/3 height 360 kB Canon FD? (I > think I need Canon to > get the bezel right on the machine I am "restoring"). I had to replace a 1/3 height floppy drive in a friend's sequencer one time. It was a 720k (80 track, double density 5 1/4") drive, and there was something wrong with the heads or read/write logic - it would appear to write disks, but could not read them back. Mechanical motions were fine. I ended up using a half height 1.2mb Teac drive that I hardwired to run as 720k. I had to strip down the mechanism and cut the aluminum casting down with a dremel on the front so it would match up with the 1/3 height opening in the front of the sequencer. The faceplate was able to remain mostly unmodified, and it hung over the opening on the front of the sequencer. All told it looked pretty good when I was done... however this probably wouldn't work on your Compaq, I don't remember there being enough room on the side of one of those things. -Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jan 28 13:45:15 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 14:45:15 -0500 Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: <4B61DC7B.6050303@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CB46956-1778-4478-A932-3899AA67D392@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e1001261032j47a9fe7ak6b78b93b752f8b3c@mail.gmail.com> <66AD9588-0F02-4A9E-AA57-1C72D75D604B@neurotica.com> <20100127182620.2e2a455c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20100127200555.6bd55559.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <8597B991-DA5D-4838-912C-DBD0649CE05C@neurotica.com> <20100128171659.1171785c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4A91DFB2-E7FE-4FDF-A278-1C7377AB276D@neurotica.com> <4B61D0CE.8060801@jetnet.ab.ca> <57EBA5B3-BC1D-423F-BF8D-89680CF64769@xlisper.com> <4B61D731.907@e-bbes.com> <1EA52674-F26F-4783-9889-80FEBFDC0F0C@xlisper.com> <4B61DC7B.6050303@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <68F1E1D2-09A4-48BD-BADF-2146476D08EA@neurotica.com> On Jan 28, 2010, at 1:50 PM, Ben wrote: >> Thanks for the suggestion but I was hoping for something actually had >> a 6809 chip on it. > > It is too bad, you have zillions of 6502 projects out there, but > not a one 6809 cpu board. I could swear I've seen a few out there. > PS. Google for Nintro 9, I think a open source version of OS.9. > PPS. I still think you can by COCO III's. Every CoCo model is pretty easy to find these days. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 28 14:13:47 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:13:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: <4B61DC7B.6050303@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CB46956-1778-4478-A932-3899AA67D392@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e1001261032j47a9fe7ak6b78b93b752f8b3c@mail.gmail.com> <66AD9588-0F02-4A9E-AA57-1C72D75D604B@neurotica.com> <20100127182620.2e2a455c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20100127200555.6bd55559.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <8597B991-DA5D-4838-912C-DBD0649CE05C@neurotica.com> <20100128171659.1171785c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4A91DFB2-E7FE-4FDF-A278-1C7377AB276D@neurotica.com> <4B61D0CE.8060801@jetnet.ab.ca> <57EBA5B3-BC1D-423F-BF8D-89680CF64769@xlisper.com> <4B61D731.907@e-bbes.com> <1EA52674-F26F-4783-9889-80FEBFDC0F0C@xlisper.com> <4B61DC7B.6050303@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20100128121248.X5131@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 28 Jan 2010, Ben wrote: > It is too bad, you have zillions of 6502 projects out there, but > not a one 6809 cpu board. The really hard part is finding a > IDE interface. OS9 is modular so all you should have to change is > the driver code. Ben. > PS. Google for Nintro 9, I think a open source version of OS.9. > PPS. I still think you can by COCO III's. Hmmmmmm. Can a Mac emulate a 6809 well enough to run OS9? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Thu Jan 28 14:15:21 2010 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 21:15:21 +0100 Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CB46956-1778-4478-A932-3899AA67D392@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e1001261032j47a9fe7ak6b78b93b752f8b3c@mail.gmail.com> <66AD9588-0F02-4A9E-AA57-1C72D75D604B@neurotica.com> <20100127182620.2e2a455c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20100127200555.6bd55559.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <8597B991-DA5D-4838-912C-DBD0649CE05C@neurotica.com> <20100128171659.1171785c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4A91DFB2-E7FE-4FDF-A278-1C7377AB276D@neurotica.com> <4B61D0CE.8060801@jetnet.ab.ca> <57EBA5B3-BC1D-423F-BF8D-89680CF64769@xlisper.com> <4B61D731.907@e-bbes.com><1EA52674-F26F-4783-9889-80FEBFDC0F0C@xlisper.com> <4B61DC7B.6050303@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CB46956-1778-4478-A932-3899AA67D392@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e1001261032j47a9fe7ak6b78b93b752f8b3c@mail.gmail.com> <66AD9588-0F02-4A9E-AA57-1C72D75D604B@neurotica.com> <20100127182620.2e2a455c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20100127200555.6bd55559.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <8597B991-DA5D-4838-912C-DBD0649CE05C@neurotica.com> <20100128171659.1171785c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4A91DFB2-E7FE-4FDF-A278-1C7377AB276D@neurotica.com> <4B61D0CE.8060801@jetnet.ab.ca> <57EBA5B3-BC1D-423F-BF8D-89680CF64769@xlisper.com> <4B61D731.907@e-bbes.com><1EA52674-F26F-4783-9889-80FEBFDC0F0C@xlisper.com> <4B61DC7B.6050303@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: From: "Ben" Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 7:50 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) > David Betz wrote: > >> Thanks for the suggestion but I was hoping for something actually had >> a 6809 chip on it. > > It is too bad, you have zillions of 6502 projects out there, but > not a one 6809 cpu board. The really hard part is finding a > IDE interface. OS9 is modular so all you should have to change is > the driver code. Ben. > PS. Google for Nintro 9, I think a open source version of OS.9. > PPS. I still think you can by COCO III's. If you just want a small 6809 SBC with one 6821 and one 6850, you might take a look at the "blinkenboard" core board. A similar small board will give you simple 64 TTL outputs and 64 TTL inputs (74LS373/LS374). There is also a design with a 2793 FDC (working). Check out my website (folder "my projects"). An IDE interface is really simple, you can actually realize that with the 64 I/O board! Maybe you need some additional hardware to support OS9. I am not sure if the memory map for OS9 will fit on the 6809 core board. For example, I have the I/O mapped on $0000 - $007F, and RAM starts at $2000. - Henk (www.pdp-11.nl) From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 28 14:18:20 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:18:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CB46956-1778-4478-A932-3899AA67D392@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e1001261032j47a9fe7ak6b78b93b752f8b3c@mail.gmail.com> <66AD9588-0F02-4A9E-AA57-1C72D75D604B@neurotica.com> <20100127182620.2e2a455c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20100127200555.6bd55559.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <8597B991-DA5D-4838-912C-DBD0649CE05C@neurotica.com> <20100128171659.1171785c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4A91DFB2-E7FE-4FDF-A278-1C7377AB276D@neurotica.com> <4B61D0CE.8060801@jetnet.ab.ca> <57EBA5B3-BC1D-423F-BF8D-89680CF64769@xlisper.com> <4B61D731.907@e-bbes.com> <1EA52674-F26F-4783-9889-80FEBFDC0F0C@xlisper.com> <4B61DD9F.7080705@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <20100128121537.L5131@shell.lmi.net> > > Depending where you are in the world, you might be able to pick up a > > Tandy Colour Computer or a Dragon 32/64 for a reasonable price. > > Ok not quite single board...... All of the Cocos that I had were single boards. Just take it out of the case! Well, except for the FDC add-on board in an 8-track cartridge that pugged onto the side. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jan 28 14:21:15 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:21:15 -0500 Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CB46956-1778-4478-A932-3899AA67D392@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e1001261032j47a9fe7ak6b78b93b752f8b3c@mail.gmail.com> <66AD9588-0F02-4A9E-AA57-1C72D75D604B@neurotica.com> <20100127182620.2e2a455c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20100127200555.6bd55559.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <8597B991-DA5D-4838-912C-DBD0649CE05C@neurotica.com> <20100128171659.1171785c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4A91DFB2-E7FE-4FDF-A278-1C7377AB276D@neurotica.com> <4B61D0CE.8060801@jetnet.ab.ca> <57EBA5B3-BC1D-423F-BF8D-89680CF64769@xlisper.com> <4B61D731.907@e-bbes.com><1EA52674-F26F-4783-9889-80FEBFDC0F0C@xlisper.com> <4B61DC7B.6050303@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <18C0D576-53C6-49C3-BDD7-269690BD056E@neurotica.com> On Jan 28, 2010, at 3:15 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > If you just want a small 6809 SBC with one 6821 and one 6850, > you might take a look at the "blinkenboard" core board. I have one of these but it's only half-built so far. I hope to finish it this spring. Fun stuff! Nice work, guys! -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jan 28 14:25:18 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:25:18 -0500 Subject: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <4B61D632.7090207@e-bbes.com> References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com>, <4A91DFB2-E7FE-4FDF-A278-1C7377AB276D@neurotica.com>, <4B61D0CE.8060801@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B6162EF.23276.50AB8C@cclist.sydex.com> <4B61D632.7090207@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <4BA0A95A-A1E0-4696-B839-E77BF1002FEC@neurotica.com> On Jan 28, 2010, at 1:23 PM, e.stiebler wrote: >> The 8086, as I recall, was intended to be a stopgap product until >> the 432 could be shipped in quantity. > > They tried so many times to kill this bastard ... Yeah I can tell: 80286 80386 80486 Pentium Pentium-II PentiumPro Pentium-III Pentium 4 etc etc etc Clearly they're tryin' real hard to get rid of it.. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 14:47:32 2010 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:47:32 -0500 Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> <8597B991-DA5D-4838-912C-DBD0649CE05C@neurotica.com> <20100128171659.1171785c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4A91DFB2-E7FE-4FDF-A278-1C7377AB276D@neurotica.com> <4B61D0CE.8060801@jetnet.ab.ca> <57EBA5B3-BC1D-423F-BF8D-89680CF64769@xlisper.com> <4B61D731.907@e-bbes.com> <1EA52674-F26F-4783-9889-80FEBFDC0F0C@xlisper.com> <4B61DC7B.6050303@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4affc5e1001281247o71e1c145y8af45304142016db@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 15:15, Henk Gooijen wrote: > If you just want a small 6809 SBC with one 6821 and one 6850, > you might take a look at the "blinkenboard" core board. > A similar small board will give you simple 64 TTL outputs and > 64 TTL inputs (74LS373/LS374). There is also a design with > a 2793 FDC (working). Check out my website (folder "my projects"). Hmmm, in a similar question that someone just asked about 8050/8051 cpus, how similar is the 6809 to the 68HC11/12? Could I run OS9 on the M68HC12A4EVB I have kicking around? Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Thu Jan 28 14:51:03 2010 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:51:03 -0800 Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: <20100128121248.X5131@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100128171659.1171785c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <8597b991-da5d-4838-912c-dbd0649ce05c@neurotica.com> <20100127182620.2e2a455c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8cb46956-1778-4478-a932-3899aa67d392@neurotica.com> <57eba5b3-bc1d-423f-bf8d-89680cf64769@xlisper.com> <5f7d1b0e1001261032j47a9fe7ak6b78b93b752f8b3c@mail.gmail.com> <4b61d0ce.8060801@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100127200555.6bd55559.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1ea52674-f26f-4783-9889-80febfdc0f0c@xlisper.com> <4a91dfb2-e7fe-4fdf-a278-1c7377ab276d@neurotica.com> <4b61dc7b.6050303@jetnet.ab.ca> <201001261444.o0qeieiv011146@floodgap.com> <66ad9588-0f02-4a9e-aa57-1c72d75d604b@neurotica.com> <4b61d731.907@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: Actually Mike Evenson's SwTPc emulator runs OS/9, besides FLEX, and UniFlex. Get it at: http://www.evenson-consulting.com/swtpc.aspx This is for windows, but I understand Mike's working on an OS/X version . . > -----Original Message----- > From: cisin at xenosoft.com > Sent: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:13:47 -0800 (PST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) > > On Thu, 28 Jan 2010, Ben wrote: >> It is too bad, you have zillions of 6502 projects out there, but >> not a one 6809 cpu board. The really hard part is finding a >> IDE interface. OS9 is modular so all you should have to change is >> the driver code. Ben. >> PS. Google for Nintro 9, I think a open source version of OS.9. >> PPS. I still think you can by COCO III's. > > Hmmmmmm. > Can a Mac emulate a 6809 well enough to run OS9? > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From lynchaj at yahoo.com Thu Jan 28 15:41:09 2010 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 16:41:09 -0500 Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) Message-ID: http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2010-January/281973.html 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) David Betz dbetz at xlisper.com Thu Jan 28 12:40:03 CST 2010 * Previous message: Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums) * Next message: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] _____ On Jan 28, 2010, at 1:28 PM, e.stiebler wrote: > David Betz wrote: >> On Jan 28, 2010, at 1:00 PM, Ben wrote: >>> It seems only Motorola thought of 'home' computing >>> more with 6809. >> I always wanted to program the 6809. I have a SWTPc 6800/6809 system that I built but I never fleshed it out with a disk drive and OS. Does anyone make a 6809 SBC that will run OS-9 these days? > > I think there is one hiding on : > > http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem I checked this out a while ago but I think it is just a 6809 coprocessor board that only works with their Z80 board. > > Or take a cheap FPGA kit, there is the system09, which runs a lot of software in the meantime Thanks for the suggestion but I was hoping for something actually had a 6809 chip on it. _____ size=2 width="100%" align=center> The N8VEM 6809 host processor by itself is dependent on the ECB SBC for its IO. However, I recently released an "IO mezzanine" PCB that connects on top of the 6809 host processor board that allows it to be operated independently with its own power interface, serial port, timer, and dual VIAs for IO. One of the N8VEM builders ported CUBIX to the 6809 host processor and I am using ASSIST09 on the 6809 host processor with IO mezzanine as a stand alone computer. It definitely uses a real 6809 CPU. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 28 15:47:13 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 13:47:13 -0800 Subject: Compaq Portable II fails to boot - some analysis In-Reply-To: <954649.10034.qm@web52606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: , <954649.10034.qm@web52606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B619561.29803.115B998@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Jan 2010 at 11:39, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > I had to replace a 1/3 height floppy drive in a friend's sequencer one > time. It was a 720k (80 track, double density 5 1/4") drive, and there > was something wrong with the heads or read/write logic - it would > appear to write disks, but could not read them back. Mechanical > motions were fine. > > I ended up using a half height 1.2mb Teac drive that I hardwired to > run as 720k. I had to strip down the mechanism and cut the aluminum > casting down with a dremel on the front so it would match up with the > 1/3 height opening in the front of the sequencer. The faceplate was > able to remain mostly unmodified, and it hung over the opening on the > front of the sequencer. All told it looked pretty good when I was > done... however this probably wouldn't work on your Compaq, I don't > remember there being enough room on the side of one of those things. Could you have better used the 5.25' section from a Teac FD-505 dual drive? --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 28 15:58:12 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 13:58:12 -0800 Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: <4affc5e1001281247o71e1c145y8af45304142016db@mail.gmail.com> References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com>, , <4affc5e1001281247o71e1c145y8af45304142016db@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B6197F4.1887.11FC9C4@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Jan 2010 at 15:47, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > Hmmm, in a similar question that someone just asked about 8050/8051 > cpus, how similar is the 6809 to the 68HC11/12? Could I run OS9 on > the M68HC12A4EVB I have kicking around? 68HC12 is an enhanced 6800 (i.e. object code compatible); the 6809, while bearing a family resemblance, is sui generis, but for the Hitachi 6309. AFAIK the 09 architecture never made it into an embedded microcontroller. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 28 16:02:21 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 22:02:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Compaq Portable II fails to boot - some analysis In-Reply-To: from "Tom Gardner" at Jan 28, 10 11:11:41 am Message-ID: > > Sometime ago I posted a request for help on my two Compaq Portable IIs that > failed to boot from the FDD. > > I now can boot one using an "off the shelf" (at Weird Stuff) half height 360 > kB FDD in place of either of the two Canon 5201 1/3 height FDDs that were in > the two Portable IIs. Both exhibit the same failure mode, while trying to > read the disk visibly spins erratically, as if there were some form of > stiction causing it to go slower and then faster. Manually turning it with > and without a disk, the spindle motor feels free of stiction. > > It is surprising to me to find both Canon 1/3 height FDDs fail in the same > mode, suggesting a fundamental flaw in the design. For example, the full Hve you checked -- with a voltmeter and 'scope -- the 12V power line to the drives? It's possible the original Canon drives need more current than your replacemetn (enve if they're working correctly) and you have a PSU problem that is cuaseing the 12V line to dip under those conditions. If it's certianly the drive (I'd stick it on an exerciser powered by a known-stable PSU), I'd start ivestigatgn the spindle motor. I assume it's a direct-drive mortor under the spindle (that's not _always_ the case, even in slimline drives).. Strip it down and check the windigns for open-scirucits. Check the outputs of the hall sensrs witha 'scope when the motor is running. Maybe suspect the motor control IC((if you're lucky it'll be a stnadard one. -tony From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Jan 28 17:14:46 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 23:14:46 -0000 Subject: Part Number for a MicroVAX II Fan In-Reply-To: References: <002901ca9c83$6b44f2d0$41ced870$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Jan 23, 10 11:25:56 pm Message-ID: <000601caa06f$afbc07b0$0f341710$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 24 January 2010 18:30 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Part Number for a MicroVAX II Fan > > > Finally got round to getting the fan out. It is a 120mm fan, marked > as > > follows: > > > > Nidec > > Torin > > TA450DC > > Model A 31728-10 > > 10 V.D.C > > 30 AMP > > I do not believe for one instant that that fan draws 30A! 0.3A, quite > possibly. > I agree, I thought 30A was a bit ridiculous, but I typed what I saw, and with the noise it makes 30A might not be too far out :-). It is back in the machine now so I can't check at the moment to see if there was actually a faint decimal point before the "3", but I am sure there must be. In fact someone sent me a picture of a similar one which does show a clear leading decimal point. Regards Rob From bob at copenhagen.cuug.ab.ca Thu Jan 28 18:49:14 2010 From: bob at copenhagen.cuug.ab.ca (Bob Bramwell) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 20:49:14 -0400 Subject: Solaris manuals Message-ID: <16436A26-4E64-4BFD-B249-A51FC11CA265@copenhagen.cuug.ab.ca> Recently a friend of mine in Calgary (Canada) fell heir to a 13Kg box of Solaris manuals. He says that they are still in their original plastic wrappers and that most of them have "5.1" and "x86" on the spines. There are a few which appear to relate to Solaris 2.5.1 for Sparc. If anyone is interested please get in touch with him directly: rick at hartmantech.com Bob Bramwell | The birds have vanished into the sky, | and now the last cloud drains away. +1 902 531 2289 | We sit together, the mountain and I, | until only the mountain remains. | - Li Po, 8th Century Chinese poet From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 28 19:25:21 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 18:25:21 -0700 Subject: Boomerang decompiler Message-ID: Anyone using the Boomerang decompiler to recover vintage source from vintage binaries? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 28 19:27:32 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 18:27:32 -0700 Subject: Part Number for a MicroVAX II Fan In-Reply-To: <000601caa06f$afbc07b0$0f341710$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <002901ca9c83$6b44f2d0$41ced870$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Jan 23, 10 11:25:56 pm <000601caa06f$afbc07b0$0f341710$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4B623984.5090806@jetnet.ab.ca> Rob Jarratt wrote: > I agree, I thought 30A was a bit ridiculous, but I typed what I saw, and > with the noise it makes 30A might not be too far out :-). > > It is back in the machine now so I can't check at the moment to see if there > was actually a faint decimal point before the "3", but I am sure there must > be. In fact someone sent me a picture of a similar one which does show a > clear leading decimal point. No you have wrong! 1 amp fans when you have a 30 amp CPU. 30 amp fan when have a 1 amp micro-chip! > Regards > > Rob > In any case use a bigger fan. :) Ben. From billdeg at degnanco.com Thu Jan 28 19:59:33 2010 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B Degnan) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 20:59:33 -0500 Subject: Tricord Servers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B624105.3080700@degnanco.com> Curt, I don't know if "collect" is the proper term, but I have an untested, M 40-50C. I use it as a table, it looks to have been stripped of the drives and such. http://www.vintagecomputer.net/tricord/ Bill > > Hi, > > Anyone out there collect Tricord Servers? I used to install and > work on these back around 95', did work on a couple of ES7000 and ES8000 > systems at Newsday and Scherring-Plough. I was just remembering them > today, and figured I'd see if anyone had any of them. They are fairly > big sized units, about 3-4' tall, 19" wide styled cabinet, their > motherboards were rather unique and in a sense, weird too, like how the > card cage was accessed via the back and underneath the mainboard and such... > > Let me know if anyone collects these, thanks. > > > > Curt > From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Jan 28 21:09:26 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 19:09:26 -0800 Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: <1EA52674-F26F-4783-9889-80FEBFDC0F0C@xlisper.com> Message-ID: On 1/28/10 10:40 AM, "David Betz" wrote: > On Jan 28, 2010, at 1:28 PM, e.stiebler wrote: > >> David Betz wrote: >>> On Jan 28, 2010, at 1:00 PM, Ben wrote: >>>> It seems only Motorola thought of 'home' computing >>>> more with 6809. >>> I always wanted to program the 6809. I have a SWTPc 6800/6809 system that I >>> built but I never fleshed it out with a disk drive and OS. Does anyone make >>> a 6809 SBC that will run OS-9 these days? >> >> I think there is one hiding on : >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem > > I checked this out a while ago but I think it is just a 6809 coprocessor board > that only works with their Z80 board. > >> >> Or take a cheap FPGA kit, there is the system09, which runs a lot of software >> in the meantime > > Thanks for the suggestion but I was hoping for something actually had a 6809 > chip on it. > > There is a IO mezzanine board in the works that will make the 6809 board more of a full system. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 28 21:36:38 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 20:36:38 -0700 Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B6257C6.3090706@jetnet.ab.ca> Geoffrey Reed wrote: >> Thanks for the suggestion but I was hoping for something actually had a 6809 >> chip on it. >> >> > > There is a IO mezzanine board in the works that will make the 6809 board > more of a full system. > Well if remember right a 2 MHZ 6809 with Memory Managment Unit could run 2 to 5 users under OS/9 level two at modest serial baud rates.( 300 to 1200 baud ) That to me is a full system. I consider a 6809, 1/3 a PDP 11 in computing power as a ballpark. Ben. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jan 28 22:05:40 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 23:05:40 -0500 Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: <4B6257C6.3090706@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4B6257C6.3090706@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Jan 28, 2010, at 10:36 PM, Ben wrote: > Well if remember right a 2 MHZ 6809 with Memory Managment Unit > could run 2 to 5 users under OS/9 level two at modest serial > baud rates.( 300 to 1200 baud ) That to me is a full system. I > consider a 6809, 1/3 a PDP 11 in computing power as a ballpark. It'll do a good bit more than that. My high school used a UniFLEX system that was a 2MHz 6809 with about a dozen 1200-baud terminals. It was used to teach Pascal. Interactive performance was typically pretty good. And you do realize "PDP-11" spanned some two and a half decades and more than a dozen implementations with a huge range of processing power ranging from "wimpy" to "big clanging brass balls", right? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Jan 28 22:14:05 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 23:14:05 -0500 Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: <4B6257C6.3090706@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4B6257C6.3090706@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4B62608D.3090903@verizon.net> Ben wrote: > Geoffrey Reed wrote: > >>> Thanks for the suggestion but I was hoping for something actually >>> had a 6809 >>> chip on it. >>> >>> >> >> There is a IO mezzanine board in the works that will make the 6809 board >> more of a full system. >> > Well if remember right a 2 MHZ 6809 with Memory Managment Unit > could run 2 to 5 users under OS/9 level two at modest serial > baud rates.( 300 to 1200 baud ) That to me is a full system. I > consider a 6809, 1/3 a PDP 11 in computing power as a ballpark. > Ben. I've run a 6809 and programmed it. Nice chip. Lots of PDP-11 like similarities but speed wise it was more like 1/3 an LSI-11 which was about the slowest of the PDP11s. Compared to an 11/23 or worse 11/34 it was far slower. The T11 (8bit access mode) and the 6809 without MMU were on par with each other only because the bus bandwidth in 8bit mode slower. Since I've played with both chips T11 and 6809 I will say the 6809 is one of the easier CPUs to build around and has a far more balanced and powerful instruction set and addressing modes than anything Intel. For those wanting to build aa SBC with this chip look at Dave Dunfields CUBIX. Allison > > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Jan 28 22:20:14 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 23:20:14 -0500 Subject: Tricord Servers In-Reply-To: <4B624105.3080700@degnanco.com> References: <4B624105.3080700@degnanco.com> Message-ID: <4B6261FE.7070207@atarimuseum.com> Too bad its been gutted... Tricord was one of the first company's who's servers were tested to work with Novell's SMP Netware. Tricords and Netframes were probably the two coolest Netware server hardware platforms to work on Curt B Degnan wrote: > Curt, > I don't know if "collect" is the proper term, but I have an untested, > M 40-50C. I use it as a table, it looks to have been stripped of the > drives and such. > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/tricord/ > Bill > > >> >> Hi, >> >> Anyone out there collect Tricord Servers? I used to install and >> work on these back around 95', did work on a couple of ES7000 and ES8000 >> systems at Newsday and Scherring-Plough. I was just remembering them >> today, and figured I'd see if anyone had any of them. They are fairly >> big sized units, about 3-4' tall, 19" wide styled cabinet, their >> motherboards were rather unique and in a sense, weird too, like how the >> card cage was accessed via the back and underneath the mainboard and >> such... >> >> Let me know if anyone collects these, thanks. >> >> >> >> Curt >> > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 28 22:23:48 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 21:23:48 -0700 Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: References: <4B6257C6.3090706@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4B6262D4.70307@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > It'll do a good bit more than that. My high school used a UniFLEX system > that was a 2MHz 6809 with about a dozen 1200-baud terminals. It was used > to teach Pascal. Interactive performance was typically pretty good. The Missing 6809 UniFLEX Archive http://www.rtmx.com/UniFLEX/index.html This needs to mirrored. > And you do realize "PDP-11" spanned some two and a half decades and more > than a dozen implementations with a huge range of processing power > ranging from "wimpy" to "big clanging brass balls", right? Yes, but the PDP 11 was designed to have raw power from the original design. OK, they goofed on a basic address space of 18 bits. The 68000 comes close in design but offhand I still think the 68000 had only 16 bit addressing*. I do know it took a few revisions of the chip to get a MMU for it. By this time I moved from a COCO II to a PC clone and never got to play with well designed chips. > -Dave > Ben. *I know it had long addressing, but think that was absolute not indexed. From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Thu Jan 28 01:55:58 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 01:55:58 -0600 Subject: [personal] Shaft encoder in HP2631B printer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B61430E.2010501@tx.rr.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> I wonder if one of those Nernst glowers emits many electrons. I've had >> this pipe dream lately to build a triode to operate in open air, and >> I've been pondering what to use for a filament/cathode. Googling so far >> has not revealed anyone else this crazy. ;) > > You are going to have problems. The mean free path of an electron in air > at atmospheric pressure is pretty short (I forget how short, but it can > be looked up). You need to have the overal distance between the > electrodes to be less than that. > > There was a proposable to make field emitting triodes (rather than > thermionic ones) using eteched silicon structures. Those would work > without a vacuum due to their small size. The reuslt would be > radiation-hard chips. > > -tony > Yes, and I'm sure that's not the only problem I'd have. :) Maybe my next dream will be better... Later, Charlie C. From wgungfu at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 12:39:18 2010 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:39:18 -0600 Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <318622156.223381264615192647.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> References: <2c768b1e1001270034r35efea67g2be76f449d612f2f@mail.gmail.com> <318622156.223381264615192647.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <2c768b1e1001281039l5d2f7e7h90db884fd813860b@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 11:59 AM, Dan Roganti wrote: > > > > I'm not referring to any timeline. I was only saying how Tramiel has a reputation ignoring engineering advice. He has a >lot of cost cutting tactics as a businessman - some good, but also some bad = such as slashing valuable personal in the >engineering staff. ?Although I feel Atari lost out, I would shudder to think what Tramiel might have done afterwards to >Jay Miner's design just to make it cheaper, that's his MO ?( I know this is hindsight). Warner/Atari Inc.'s contract was simply for licensing the chip technology, allowing Jay and company to also continue on with their own full computer designs and license it out to whoever else they wanted to - or even sell the company to who they wanted to, which is something Morse wanted. So the implication isn't really valid. The lawsuit was also in regards to this - full access to the chipset. >He may be famous for the early Commodore success, but Commodore was still successful without him--thanks to engineers. >If he was so remarkable, how is it that the Atari ST was just a mediocre design ( I know this just another religious war >- but open your eyes for a minute). It was Shiraz's design, and it was following the same "power without the price" methodology they did back at Commodore with the vic20 and C64. At least according to them. Although the ST's main competitor wound up being the Amiga, it was actually promoted as a cheaper full color Macintosh (hence the Jackintosh). >Thankfully, we were privileged to see Jay Miner's achievement as Commodore succeeded >without a hatchet job on his design. > Never would have happened anyway, per above. Marty From wgungfu at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 12:41:25 2010 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:41:25 -0600 Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <939437.78329.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <318622156.223381264615192647.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <939437.78329.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2c768b1e1001281041r6bba1d7ah911a22b5572ff9d8@mail.gmail.com> Where is he saying talent was driven away from the company? If anything, he took a lot of the talent with him. On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 1:29 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > These are good points. I think that a lot of Commodore's successes were despite Tramiels' involvement, rather than because of it. The accounts of the design of the SID and VIC-II in particular seem to point to this, and as you say, he ultimately drove that talent away from the company. > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Dan Roganti > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Sent: Wed, January 27, 2010 11:59:52 AM > Subject: Re: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) > > > > ----- Martin Goldberg ?wrote: >> > Dan Roganti wrote: >> > >> > Too bad Atari lost out on this, I think they deserved to build this, but >> > you know how shifty Tramiel was :) >> > >> > =Dan >> > -- >> > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ >> > >> >> >> You must be going by RJ Mical's misinformation. ?Jack Tramiel had >> nothing to do with the Amiga, that was Warner Atari Inc. as Curt >> mentioned. > > I'm not referring to any timeline. I was only saying how Tramiel has a reputation ignoring engineering advice. He has a lot of cost cutting tactics as a businessman - some good, but also some bad = such as slashing valuable personal in the engineering staff. ?Although I feel Atari lost out, I would shudder to think what Tramiel might have done afterwards to Jay Miner's design just to make it cheaper, that's his MO ?( I know this is hindsight). He may be famous for the early Commodore success, but Commodore was still successful without him--thanks to engineers. If he was so remarkable, how is it that the Atari ST was just a mediocre design ( I know this just another religious war - but open your eyes for a minute). Thankfully, we were privileged to see Jay Miner's achievement as Commodore succeeded without a hatchet job on his design. > > =Dan > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ > From julianskidmore at yahoo.com Thu Jan 28 14:37:33 2010 From: julianskidmore at yahoo.com (Julian Skidmore) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:37:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Acorn vs Sinclair (was Re: Editor Religious wars) Message-ID: <148982.49884.qm@web37103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Of course, everyone knows the most important computer war was between Acorn and Sinclair. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00n5b92 Thanks to pompous Sir Clive's fallout with his ex-sidekick, the cigarette-chuffing Chris Curry, the UK got to enjoy a continual dust-up between the two biggest home computer companies of the early 80s. Acorn vs Sinclair had the lot: 6502 vs Z80; elistism vs affordability; skunk-works development vs glossy buildings; establishmentism vs the underdog. And into the bargain they introduced not only the earliest home computers using gate array chips; a generation of UK games programmers, but also the preeminent mobile RISC cpu: the Advanced Risc Machine. In comparison, Commodore vs Atari are just tiffs between best buddies ;-) -cheers from julz @P From tingox at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 17:48:10 2010 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 00:48:10 +0100 Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: <4B61DC7B.6050303@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> <20100127200555.6bd55559.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <8597B991-DA5D-4838-912C-DBD0649CE05C@neurotica.com> <20100128171659.1171785c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4A91DFB2-E7FE-4FDF-A278-1C7377AB276D@neurotica.com> <4B61D0CE.8060801@jetnet.ab.ca> <57EBA5B3-BC1D-423F-BF8D-89680CF64769@xlisper.com> <4B61D731.907@e-bbes.com> <1EA52674-F26F-4783-9889-80FEBFDC0F0C@xlisper.com> <4B61DC7B.6050303@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 7:50 PM, Ben wrote: > PS. Google for Nintro 9, I think a open source version of OS.9. > NitrOS-9: http://www.nitros9.org/ -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Fri Jan 29 03:12:35 2010 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 20:12:35 +1100 Subject: Acorn vs Sinclair (was Re: Editor Religious wars) In-Reply-To: <148982.49884.qm@web37103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <148982.49884.qm@web37103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4b62a687.0703c00a.1e09.590e@mx.google.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Julian Skidmore Sent: Friday, 29 January 2010 7:38 AM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Acorn vs Sinclair (was Re: Editor Religious wars) > Of course, everyone knows the most important computer war was between Acorn and Sinclair. > between the two biggest home computer companies of the early 80s. > Acorn vs Sinclair Errr.... biggest ? Lance Lyon http://www.ferriesofsydney.com http://www.savethebaragoola.com http://www.commodore128.org From tosteve at yahoo.com Fri Jan 29 04:11:07 2010 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 02:11:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Free systems in Archorage, Alaska Message-ID: <794007.49472.qm@web110605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> William, (not I), has a few systems to give away: TRS-80 Coco Zenith Data Systems portable from 1987 - a ZFL-161-93 Zenith Data Systems Z-Sport from 1990. Zenith Data Systems Z-Noteflex, complete with port replicator from 1994. PCMCIA-based ZPlayer (CD Player) from Zenith Data System from 1994. Contact *him* for more info! William Lidster williamlidster at gmail.com Anchorage, Alaska From ats at offog.org Fri Jan 29 06:22:50 2010 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 12:22:50 +0000 Subject: Amiga Slingshot In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381001271354k5c796f35ibac19fe8d17564ff@mail.gmail.com> (Brian Lanning's message of "Wed, 27 Jan 2010 15:54:28 -0600") References: <6dbe3c381001271354k5c796f35ibac19fe8d17564ff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Brian Lanning writes: > It's an adapter that turns the expansion port on an amiga 500 into a > zorro 2 slot like those in the amiga 2000. People who're interested in playing with this should have a look through the Aminet docs/hard directory; there are descriptions in there of all sorts of hardware mods along the same lines. http://aminet.net/docs/hard -- Adam Sampson From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 29 08:14:58 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 14:14:58 +0000 Subject: Acorn vs Sinclair (was Re: Editor Religious wars) In-Reply-To: <4b62a687.0703c00a.1e09.590e@mx.google.com> References: <148982.49884.qm@web37103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4b62a687.0703c00a.1e09.590e@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4B62ED62.8000807@aurigae.demon.co.uk> On 29/01/2010 09:12, Lance Lyon wrote: >> Of course, everyone knows the most important computer war was between > Acorn and Sinclair. > >> between the two biggest home computer companies of the early 80s. > >> Acorn vs Sinclair > > Errr.... biggest ? In the UK cirtainly. Cheers. Phill. From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 29 09:00:01 2010 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 07:00:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <392936.72562.qm@web111516.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Having learned assembly language programming on the beautifully simple architecture and instruction set of the 6800, the Byte magazine article linked to below that I read when it was originally published really impressed me. In the 6809 they made one of the earliest efforts I know of to really tweak an already great uP instruction set based upon an analysis of existing software: http://tlindner.macmess.org/?page_id=119 From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jan 29 10:27:16 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 08:27:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <2c768b1e1001281039l5d2f7e7h90db884fd813860b@mail.gmail.com> from Martin Goldberg at "Jan 28, 10 12:39:18 pm" Message-ID: <201001291627.o0TGRGvE017160@floodgap.com> > It was Shiraz's design, and it was following the same "power without > the price" methodology they did back at Commodore with the vic20 and > C64. At least according to them. Although the ST's main competitor > wound up being the Amiga, it was actually promoted as a cheaper full > color Macintosh (hence the Jackintosh). The Atari ST is no match for the Amiga, but the ST is still a very nice system. I'm rather fond of them myself. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- FORTUNE: Travel is important today. The IRS will arrive tomorrow. ---------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jan 29 10:35:57 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 08:35:57 -0800 Subject: Free systems in Archorage, Alaska In-Reply-To: <794007.49472.qm@web110605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <794007.49472.qm@web110605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hopefully someone can rescue these, sounds like an interesting selection of systems. If the one from '87 is what I'm familiar with, it was an interesting little system. Zane At 2:11 AM -0800 1/29/10, steven stengel wrote: >William, (not I), has a few systems to give away: > >TRS-80 Coco >Zenith Data Systems portable from 1987 - a ZFL-161-93 >Zenith Data Systems Z-Sport from 1990. >Zenith Data Systems Z-Noteflex, complete with port replicator from 1994. >PCMCIA-based ZPlayer (CD Player) from Zenith Data System from 1994. > >Contact *him* for more info! > >William Lidster >williamlidster at gmail.com >Anchorage, Alaska -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 29 12:44:42 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 13:44:42 -0500 Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: <4B62608D.3090903@verizon.net> References: <4B6257C6.3090706@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B62608D.3090903@verizon.net> Message-ID: <7975B8BF-D458-470C-9D81-4F36A3B3ECE1@neurotica.com> On Jan 28, 2010, at 11:14 PM, allison wrote: > For those wanting to build aa SBC with this chip look at Dave > Dunfields > CUBIX. I have drooled over that design for some time now. I'd like to build one similar to that when I have some spare time. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 29 12:49:37 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 18:49:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: from "Torfinn Ingolfsen" at Jan 29, 10 00:48:10 am Message-ID: > > On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 7:50 PM, Ben wrote: > > > PS. Google for Nintro 9, I think a open source version of OS.9. > > > > NitrOS-9: http://www.nitros9.org/ Do the zip archives on soruceforge contain the full sources? If not, where do I get the sources from? I would be interested in (sometime) trying this on my CoCos (I was an OS-9 hacker years ago) and I might feel like porting it to other 6809 machines I have (from what I remember, writing OS-9 device drivers was quite easy, I wrote them for the triple serial poert and paper tape interfaces I built for my CoCo). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 29 12:52:21 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 18:52:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Part Number for a MicroVAX II Fan In-Reply-To: <4B623984.5090806@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben" at Jan 28, 10 06:27:32 pm Message-ID: > No you have wrong! 1 amp fans when you have a 30 amp CPU. > 30 amp fan when have a 1 amp micro-chip! I seem to remember that the Write Only Memory datasheet tells you that proper cooling is achieved by a 5' diameter fan 1" from the device and that if the device overheats then cooling was inadequate :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 29 13:26:20 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 19:26:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: <392936.72562.qm@web111516.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> from "William Blair" at Jan 29, 10 07:00:01 am Message-ID: > Having learned assembly language programming on the beautifully > simple architecture and instruction set of the 6800, the Byte magazine > article linked to below that I read when it was originally published > really impressed me. In the 6809 they made one of the earliest efforts > I know of to really tweak an already great uP instruction set based upon > an analysis of existing software: I found the 6809 to be by far the nicest 8-bit CPU I ever worked with. The instruction set was simple and very orthogonal, the fact that you had various relative addressing modes meant you could write truely position-independant code, there were 2 stack points, and so on. Unlike certain chips I could name, there were no major misfeatures that I came across. Of course the problem (as we all know) is that it came out too late. By that tine everybody was using the Z80 or 6502. Oh well. It always suprised me that hre BBC micro used the 6502 rather than the 6809. By the time the Beeb was designed, Acorn had made a 6809 processor board for their System machines, so they must have had experience with the chip. THe Beeb is nice, but a Beeb with a 6809 processor would have been something else :-) -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jan 29 13:46:25 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 12:46:25 -0700 Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B633B11.5050305@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: >> Having learned assembly language programming on the beautifully >> simple architecture and instruction set of the 6800, the Byte magazine >> article linked to below that I read when it was originally published >> really impressed me. In the 6809 they made one of the earliest efforts >> I know of to really tweak an already great uP instruction set based upon >> an analysis of existing software: > > I found the 6809 to be by far the nicest 8-bit CPU I ever worked with. > The instruction set was simple and very orthogonal, the fact that you had > various relative addressing modes meant you could write truely > position-independant code, there were 2 stack points, and so on. Unlike > certain chips I could name, there were no major misfeatures that I came > across. > > Of course the problem (as we all know) is that it came out too late. By > that tine everybody was using the Z80 or 6502. Oh well. Around here, it was Apple ]['s and C-64's. The Coco was the only cost 6809 machine I can think of, but RS designed for BASIC rather than business machine. RS did have a 68000 machine, but I think the next year they switched to in house PC clones. > It always suprised me that hre BBC micro used the 6502 rather than the > 6809. By the time the Beeb was designed, Acorn had made a 6809 processor > board for their System machines, so they must have had experience with > the chip. THe Beeb is nice, but a Beeb with a 6809 processor would have > been something else :-) I thought the BBC micro was designed, just before the 6809 came out. I still think the 6502 was cheaper than the 6800. I think the 6502 was ~$50 when it came out compared to ~$250 of the 8080A and 6800. > -tony Ben. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jan 29 13:49:25 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 13:49:25 -0600 Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: <4B61DD9F.7080705@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CB46956-1778-4478-A932-3899AA67D392@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e1001261032j47a9fe7ak6b78b93b752f8b3c@mail.gmail.com> <66AD9588-0F02-4A9E-AA57-1C72D75D604B@neurotica.com> <20100127182620.2e2a455c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20100127200555.6bd55559.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <8597B991-DA5D-4838-912C-DBD0649CE05C@neurotica.com> <20100128171659.1171785c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4A91DFB2-E7FE-4FDF-A278-1C7377AB276D@neurotica.com> <4B61D0CE.8060801@jetnet.ab.ca> <57EBA5B3-BC1D-423F-BF8D-89680CF64769@xlisper.com> <4B61D731.907@e-bbes.com> <1EA52674-F26F-4783-9889-80FEBFDC0F0C@xlisper.com> <4B61DD9F.7080705@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4B633BC5.4050409@gmail.com> Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > David Betz wrote: >> On Jan 28, 2010, at 1:28 PM, e.stiebler wrote: Thanks for the >> suggestion but I was hoping for something actually had a 6809 chip on >> it. > > Depending where you are in the world, you might be able to pick up a > Tandy Colour Computer or a Dragon 32/64 for a reasonable price. > > Ok not quite single board...... Hmm, I have a Dragon 32 and a 64 - ISTR one of them has two PCBs but the other is all on a single PCB. Can't remember which is which, now; it's been a long time since I've been inside them. I've got a disk cart, floppy drive and OS-9 for the D64, but the machine itself was unwell and I never did get the time to fix it. One day... cheers Jules From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 29 14:04:21 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 15:04:21 -0500 Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: <4B6262D4.70307@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4B6257C6.3090706@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B6262D4.70307@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Jan 28, 2010, at 11:23 PM, Ben wrote: >> It'll do a good bit more than that. My high school used a UniFLEX >> system >> that was a 2MHz 6809 with about a dozen 1200-baud terminals. It >> was used >> to teach Pascal. Interactive performance was typically pretty good. > > The Missing 6809 UniFLEX Archive > http://www.rtmx.com/UniFLEX/index.html > This needs to mirrored. Whoa! Mirrored. >> And you do realize "PDP-11" spanned some two and a half decades >> and more >> than a dozen implementations with a huge range of processing power >> ranging from "wimpy" to "big clanging brass balls", right? > > Yes, but the PDP 11 was designed to have raw power from the original > design. OK, they goofed on a basic address space of 18 bits. 16 bits, actually. The two MMU architectures extended that to 18 and 22 bits. I wouldn't call it a goof considering the first one came out in 1970. For a small lab minicomputer in 1970, 64KB isn't bad at all. > The 68000 > comes close in design but offhand I still think the 68000 had only > 16 bit addressing*. I do know it took a few revisions of the chip > to get > a MMU for it. By this time I moved from a COCO II to a PC clone > and never got to play with well designed chips. You did that to yourself, man. ;) And who on this list only has one computer? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 29 14:17:39 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 20:17:39 +0000 Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: <4B633BC5.4050409@gmail.com> References: <201001261444.o0QEiEIV011146@floodgap.com> <379546.12183.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CB46956-1778-4478-A932-3899AA67D392@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e1001261032j47a9fe7ak6b78b93b752f8b3c@mail.gmail.com> <66AD9588-0F02-4A9E-AA57-1C72D75D604B@neurotica.com> <20100127182620.2e2a455c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20100127200555.6bd55559.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <8597B991-DA5D-4838-912C-DBD0649CE05C@neurotica.com> <20100128171659.1171785c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4A91DFB2-E7FE-4FDF-A278-1C7377AB276D@neurotica.com> <4B61D0CE.8060801@jetnet.ab.ca> <57EBA5B3-BC1D-423F-BF8D-89680CF64769@xlisper.com> <4B61D731.907@e-bbes.com> <1EA52674-F26F-4783-9889-80FEBFDC0F0C@xlisper.com> <4B61DD9F.7080705@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4B633BC5.4050409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B634263.2000807@aurigae.demon.co.uk> On 29/01/2010 19:49, Jules Richardson wrote: > Hmm, I have a Dragon 32 and a 64 - ISTR one of them has two PCBs but the > other is all on a single PCB. Can't remember which is which, now; it's > been a long time since I've been inside them. > > I've got a disk cart, floppy drive and OS-9 for the D64, but the machine > itself was unwell and I never did get the time to fix it. One day... Wellll...all the Dragon 32/64 machines I have seen have 2 boards, a power/modulator board and the main CPU board but I guess this is not what you mean :) :) It's probably the 32 that has 2 boards, the main cpu board and a little stand off board with some of the RAM on it. I believe that the reason for this was that the 32 was initially designed to be a 16K machine, but then Sinclair announced the 48K spectrum and the design was hastily updated to add another 16K on the addon board. Cheers, Phill. From ragooman at comcast.net Fri Jan 29 14:49:27 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 20:49:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: <4B633B11.5050305@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1960727935.1358181264798167294.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> ----- Ben wrote: > Around here, it was Apple ]['s and C-64's. The Coco was the only cost > 6809 machine I can think of, but RS designed for BASIC rather than > business machine. RS did have a 68000 machine, but I think the next year > they switched to in house PC clones. > The Coco was also capable of running OS-9, I had this. They also had one for the SWTPC-6809 and other SS-50 bus machines It was even ported to the 68K And it was a quite powerful OS for it's time on an 8bitter- even more than CP/M. =Dan -- http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Jan 29 14:50:08 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 15:50:08 -0500 Subject: Old Tektronix boards Message-ID: <5094C47AB8D240A782BC6814DDC4CD35@dell8300> I hit the recycler today and found some cool looking old circuit boards from an old oscilloscope. One has Copyright 1969 Tektronix, inc and is a readout system board and a smaller board with just a part number. What caught my eye was the hand laid traces (curvy pre CAD), and the chips on it all had gold/copper leads and were socketed. Most of the chips are Tektronics made (there is a ti sn7402n), I assume the chips are just logic chips. Are they worth anything? From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 29 14:58:30 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 15:58:30 -0500 Subject: Old Tektronix boards In-Reply-To: <5094C47AB8D240A782BC6814DDC4CD35@dell8300> References: <5094C47AB8D240A782BC6814DDC4CD35@dell8300> Message-ID: <58329793-ADCD-4B32-8272-74D744BA2123@neurotica.com> On Jan 29, 2010, at 3:50 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > I hit the recycler today and found some cool looking old circuit > boards from an old oscilloscope. One has Copyright 1969 Tektronix, > inc and is a readout system board and a smaller board with just a > part number. What caught my eye was the hand laid traces (curvy pre > CAD), and the chips on it all had gold/copper leads and were > socketed. Most of the chips are Tektronics made (there is a ti > sn7402n), I assume the chips are just logic chips. > Are they worth anything? I don't know about worth anything, but they might be useful. There are LOTS of Tek scopes of that vintage in use all over the place. What are the part numbers? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 29 14:50:34 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 20:50:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: <4B633B11.5050305@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben" at Jan 29, 10 12:46:25 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> Having learned assembly language programming on the beautifully > >> simple architecture and instruction set of the 6800, the Byte magazine > >> article linked to below that I read when it was originally published > >> really impressed me. In the 6809 they made one of the earliest efforts > >> I know of to really tweak an already great uP instruction set based upon > >> an analysis of existing software: > > > > I found the 6809 to be by far the nicest 8-bit CPU I ever worked with. > > The instruction set was simple and very orthogonal, the fact that you had > > various relative addressing modes meant you could write truely > > position-independant code, there were 2 stack points, and so on. Unlike > > certain chips I could name, there were no major misfeatures that I came > > across. > > > > Of course the problem (as we all know) is that it came out too late. By > > that tine everybody was using the Z80 or 6502. Oh well. > > Around here, it was Apple ]['s and C-64's. The Coco was the only cost > 6809 machine I can think of, but RS designed for BASIC rather than > business machine. RS did have a 68000 machine, but I think the next year > they switched to in house PC clones. The only common 6809 machine in the UK was the Dragon, which was based on the same Motorola application note as the CoCo. Of cource the CoCo was also sold here (althohgh AFAIK the CoCo3 never was). Acorn made a 6809 CPU board for their Eurocard based System machines, it normally ran Flex09. It's not easy to find. The curious Tiger used a 68B09 for I/O (along with a Z80A for the main processor and a 7220 graphics chip). There were, of course, various special-purpose embeeded 6809 controller boards. > > > > It always suprised me that hre BBC micro used the 6502 rather than the > > 6809. By the time the Beeb was designed, Acorn had made a 6809 processor > > board for their System machines, so they must have had experience with > > the chip. THe Beeb is nice, but a Beeb with a 6809 processor would have > > been something else :-) > > I thought the BBC micro was designed, just before the 6809 came out. I'm not sure. The Beeb was 1982 or so. I thought the 6809 was out by then. If not, it implies Acorn were still working on their System machines, which seems a little curious. > I still think the 6502 was cheaper than the 6800. I think the 6502 > was ~$50 when it came out compared to ~$250 of the 8080A and 6800. That's almost certainly true. The 6502 was a cheap processor when it first came out, But by about 1980 the other chips had really dropped in price. -tony From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Jan 29 15:34:09 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 21:34:09 +0000 Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B635451.5020206@dunnington.plus.com> On 29/01/2010 20:50, Tony Duell wrote: > I'm not sure. The Beeb was 1982 or so. 1981. The 6809 came out a little before that; I'd guess 1979-80 because although it's listed in a couple of 1980 data books I have, the specs are incomplete. Acorn's 6809 board came out in late 1980, so the 6809 MPU can't be any later than that. When the Beeb was designed, Acorn had a lot of expertise with the 6502, and since they hadn't much time, I suspect the 6502 was an easier and more obvious choice. Probably cheaper, too, at that time. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Jan 29 16:14:20 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 17:14:20 -0500 Subject: Old Tektronix boards References: <5094C47AB8D240A782BC6814DDC4CD35@dell8300> <58329793-ADCD-4B32-8272-74D744BA2123@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <753AB7B840634566ADC2079E08CC1394@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 3:58 PM Subject: Re: Old Tektronix boards > > I don't know about worth anything, but they might be useful. There are > LOTS of Tek scopes of that vintage in use all over the place. What are > the part numbers? > > -Dave > big board is 388-1166-01 small one is 670-0625-00 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jan 29 16:19:51 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 15:19:51 -0700 Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: References: <4B6257C6.3090706@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B6262D4.70307@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4B635F07.1010005@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > You did that to yourself, man. ;) And who on this list only has one > computer? Two! I am keeping the PDP8 clone as back up. :) > -Dave ( Truth be told - I had a Coco III but I dumped since the floppy got flakey and the RGB monitor I had died.) Ben. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Jan 29 16:20:36 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 22:20:36 -0000 Subject: HP Connect Membership for Hobbyist VMS Licence Message-ID: <003401caa131$497bf3d0$dc73db70$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> A while back I joined at the most basic membership level of Encompass just to get access to VMS hobbyist licences as I was not really interested in any other benefits. This used to be a free membership. Am I right that now you need to pay $50 a year to be able to get a hobbyist licence? Is there some way to avoid this charge? Regards Rob From drb at msu.edu Fri Jan 29 16:24:49 2010 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 17:24:49 -0500 Subject: HP Connect Membership for Hobbyist VMS Licence In-Reply-To: (Your message of Fri, 29 Jan 2010 22:20:36 GMT.) <003401caa131$497bf3d0$dc73db70$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <003401caa131$497bf3d0$dc73db70$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <201001292224.o0TMOnP0028672@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > A while back I joined at the most basic membership level of Encompass > just to get access to VMS hobbyist licences as I was not really > interested in any other benefits. This used to be a free > membership. Am I right that now you need to pay $50 a year to be able > to get a hobbyist licence? Is there some way to avoid this charge? DECUServe is a chapter now, and registration is free. De From halarewich at gmail.com Fri Jan 29 16:42:21 2010 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 14:42:21 -0800 Subject: HP Connect Membership for Hobbyist VMS Licence In-Reply-To: <201001292224.o0TMOnP0028672@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <201001292224.o0TMOnP0028672@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <6d6501091001291442k505a39bgfd082f3af71d6108@mail.gmail.com> here http://www.decuserve.org/ On 1/29/10, Dennis Boone wrote: > > > A while back I joined at the most basic membership level of Encompass > > just to get access to VMS hobbyist licences as I was not really > > interested in any other benefits. This used to be a free > > membership. Am I right that now you need to pay $50 a year to be able > > to get a hobbyist licence? Is there some way to avoid this charge? > > DECUServe is a chapter now, and registration is free. > > De > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 29 17:00:14 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 18:00:14 -0500 Subject: Old Tektronix boards In-Reply-To: <753AB7B840634566ADC2079E08CC1394@dell8300> References: <5094C47AB8D240A782BC6814DDC4CD35@dell8300> <58329793-ADCD-4B32-8272-74D744BA2123@neurotica.com> <753AB7B840634566ADC2079E08CC1394@dell8300> Message-ID: On Jan 29, 2010, at 5:14 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: >> I don't know about worth anything, but they might be useful. >> There are LOTS of Tek scopes of that vintage in use all over the >> place. What are the part numbers? > > big board is 388-1166-01 > small one is 670-0625-00 I'll see if I can find out what those are. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Jan 29 18:04:32 2010 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 16:04:32 -0800 Subject: French/German/Italian Sybex books Message-ID: <201001300004.o0U04W5F025620@lots.reanimators.org> A Friends of Library organization where I volunteer has a small bunch of non-English-language Sybex books, early 1980s vintage. They're wondering, "do folks in Europe have more interest in this sort of thing?" Not so much a value thing as a not wanting to throw them out if there's interest. They're unusual to us, maybe more usual over in Europe, we don't know. Though, we don't see the English editions as much as we used to. Some are shrink-wrapped, some are spotted or water-damaged. It's a mix. Author, title, year of publication, ISBN, the latter two where I could get 'em (sometimes the shrink-wrap made that hard): "Le Beux","Introduction au BASIC","1980","2902414161" "Lamoitier","Le BASIC Par La Pratique","1981","2902414315" "Laurent","Programmez en BASIC sur TRS-80 Tome 2","1983","290241451X" "Laurent","Programmez en BASIC sur TRS-80 Tome 1","1983","2902414501" "Hergert","Sinclair ZX Spectrum BASIC Handbuch","1983","3887450272" "Hergert","BASIC fu:r den Kaufmann","1983","3887450264" "Zaks","Les Microprocesseurs","1980","290241417X" "Grant","Introduction au p-System UCSD","1983","2902414579" "Gourlay","Jeux en BASIC sur VIC 20","1983","2902414773" "Shaw","Jeux en BASIC sur Spectrum","1983","2902414765" "Charlton","Jeux en BASIC sur ZX81","1983","2902414757" "Bunn","Jeux en BASIC sur Atari","1983","290241482X" "Glatzer","Introduction au Traitement de Texte","1983","2902414439" "Gee","Programmez en BASIC sur Spectrum","1983","2902414528" "Hamann","Programmes en BASIC sur VIC 20 Tome 1","1983","2902414447" "Lhoir","Decouvrez le Sharp PC-1500 et le TRS-80 PC-2 Tome 1: l'Ordinateur","1983","2902414617" "Le Beux","Introduction au BASIC","1980","2902414161" "Naiman","Einfu:hrung in Wordstar","1983","3887450191" "Glatzer","Einfu:hrung in die Textverarbeitung","1983","3887450183" "Lamoitier","Basic U:bungen fu:r den IBM Personal Computer","","388745023X" "Hergert","Mein Sinclair ZX81","","3887450213" "Bui","Planen + Entscheiden mit BASIC","","3887450256" "Trost","Programm-Sammlung zum IBM Personal Computer","","3887450248" "Hergert","Sinclair ZX81 BASIC Handbuch","","388745028" "Mateosian","La programmazione dello Z-8000","","" "Hergert","Erfolg mit VisiCalc","","3887450302" "Hergert","Commodore 64 BASIC Handbuch","","3887450485" "Hartnell","Sinclair ZX Spectrum Programme zum Lernen und Spielen","","3887450221" "Schmidt","Spielen, Lernen, Arbeiten mit dem TI-994A","","3887450396" "Black","Farbspiele mit dem Commodore 64","","" "Zaks","Introduction aux Microprocesseurs","1976","" -Frank McConnell From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Fri Jan 29 22:14:02 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 22:14:02 -0600 Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <2c768b1e1001281041r6bba1d7ah911a22b5572ff9d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <318622156.223381264615192647.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <939437.78329.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <2c768b1e1001281041r6bba1d7ah911a22b5572ff9d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3A26949F-9F9D-4187-A856-C898BD628914@bellsouth.net> He wasn't saying that... I was. It seems apparent given comments from people that worked there. On Jan 28, 2010, at 12:41 PM, Martin Goldberg wrote: > Where is he saying talent was driven away from the company? > > If anything, he took a lot of the talent with him. > > > On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 1:29 PM, geoffrey oltmans > wrote: >> These are good points. I think that a lot of Commodore's successes were despite Tramiels' involvement, rather than because of it. The accounts of the design of the SID and VIC-II in particular seem to point to this, and as you say, he ultimately drove that talent away from the company. >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Dan Roganti >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Sent: Wed, January 27, 2010 11:59:52 AM >> Subject: Re: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) >> >> >> >> ----- Martin Goldberg wrote: >>>> Dan Roganti wrote: >>>> >>>> Too bad Atari lost out on this, I think they deserved to build this, but >>>> you know how shifty Tramiel was :) >>>> >>>> =Dan >>>> -- >>>> http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ >>>> >>> >>> >>> You must be going by RJ Mical's misinformation. Jack Tramiel had >>> nothing to do with the Amiga, that was Warner Atari Inc. as Curt >>> mentioned. >> >> I'm not referring to any timeline. I was only saying how Tramiel has a reputation ignoring engineering advice. He has a lot of cost cutting tactics as a businessman - some good, but also some bad = such as slashing valuable personal in the engineering staff. Although I feel Atari lost out, I would shudder to think what Tramiel might have done afterwards to Jay Miner's design just to make it cheaper, that's his MO ( I know this is hindsight). He may be famous for the early Commodore success, but Commodore was still successful without him--thanks to engineers. If he was so remarkable, how is it that the Atari ST was just a mediocre design ( I know this just another religious war - but open your eyes for a minute). Thankfully, we were privileged to see Jay Miner's achievement as Commodore succeeded without a hatchet job on his design. >> >> =Dan >> http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ >> From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Fri Jan 29 22:17:20 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 22:17:20 -0600 Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <201001291627.o0TGRGvE017160@floodgap.com> References: <201001291627.o0TGRGvE017160@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <30EA3514-0FB1-4CFF-BBEC-953051A609DA@bellsouth.net> I think one thing in particular that the Atari ST had an advantage with was the addition of the hard disk/dma port. It made adding a hard disk a lot cheaper. Hard disk controllers on the Amiga were astronomical. On Jan 29, 2010, at 10:27 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> It was Shiraz's design, and it was following the same "power without >> the price" methodology they did back at Commodore with the vic20 and >> C64. At least according to them. Although the ST's main competitor >> wound up being the Amiga, it was actually promoted as a cheaper full >> color Macintosh (hence the Jackintosh). > > The Atari ST is no match for the Amiga, but the ST is still a very nice > system. I'm rather fond of them myself. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- FORTUNE: Travel is important today. The IRS will arrive tomorrow. ---------- From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jan 29 22:20:36 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 20:20:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <30EA3514-0FB1-4CFF-BBEC-953051A609DA@bellsouth.net> from Geoff Oltmans at "Jan 29, 10 10:17:20 pm" Message-ID: <201001300420.o0U4KalK004188@floodgap.com> > I think one thing in particular that the Atari ST had an advantage with was > the addition of the hard disk/dma port. It made adding a hard disk a lot > cheaper. Hard disk controllers on the Amiga were astronomical. And the built-in MIDI. That was its killer feature to my musician buddy who used an ST up until only a few years ago, when he replaced it with a Mac. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- God made the integers; all else is the work of Man. -- Kronecker ----------- From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Fri Jan 29 22:30:19 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 22:30:19 -0600 Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <201001300420.o0U4KalK004188@floodgap.com> References: <201001300420.o0U4KalK004188@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <1506D3BF-CFBB-4E88-8929-170AF48B2C48@bellsouth.net> That was without a doubt its claim to fame to be sure. When I was a teenager I worked at a music (and computer!) store. The Atari ST was starting on its way out when I first started, but we had quite a few of them. On Jan 29, 2010, at 10:20 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I think one thing in particular that the Atari ST had an advantage with was >> the addition of the hard disk/dma port. It made adding a hard disk a lot >> cheaper. Hard disk controllers on the Amiga were astronomical. > > And the built-in MIDI. That was its killer feature to my musician buddy who > used an ST up until only a few years ago, when he replaced it with a Mac. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- God made the integers; all else is the work of Man. -- Kronecker ----------- From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jan 29 22:44:19 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 20:44:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <201001300420.o0U4KalK004188@floodgap.com> References: <201001300420.o0U4KalK004188@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Jan 2010, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I think one thing in particular that the Atari ST had an advantage with was >> the addition of the hard disk/dma port. It made adding a hard disk a lot >> cheaper. Hard disk controllers on the Amiga were astronomical. > > And the built-in MIDI. That was its killer feature to my musician buddy who > used an ST up until only a few years ago, when he replaced it with a Mac. Not to mention Midi Wars. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jan 29 22:53:04 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 23:53:04 -0500 Subject: Recurring subject: Goo removal In-Reply-To: <4B5EEBB9.25376.EAF2E9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B5E0A93.1000106@tx.rr.com>, <4B5ED118.193.82EB13@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B5F43BE.2070504@bitsavers.org> <4B5EEBB9.25376.EAF2E9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B63BB30.6060401@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 26 Jan 2010 at 11:34, Al Kossow wrote: > >> Did the laws change in Oregon? I thought self-serve was banned there? > > Yep, and for now, the oil companies seem to have given up on that > one. It's curious seeing someone from out-of-state pulling up and > trying to pump their own gas. > > Are we the only state in the US with no self-serve gas? And no sales > tax? New Jersey. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jan 29 22:54:12 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 23:54:12 -0500 Subject: Recurring subject: Goo removal In-Reply-To: References: <4B5E0A93.1000106@tx.rr.com> <4B5ED118.193.82EB13@cclist.sydex.com> <4B5F43BE.2070504@bitsavers.org> <4B5EEBB9.25376.EAF2E9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B63BB74.5080207@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 1/26/10, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Are we the only state in the US with no self-serve gas? And no sales >> tax? > > Self-serve is illegal in NJ, and Delaware has no sales tax. > > Oregon might be the only place with both, though. New Jersey only has sales tax on items above a certain amount. ($110?) Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 29 22:59:00 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 23:59:00 -0500 Subject: Recurring subject: Goo removal In-Reply-To: <4B63BB74.5080207@gmail.com> References: <4B5E0A93.1000106@tx.rr.com> <4B5ED118.193.82EB13@cclist.sydex.com> <4B5F43BE.2070504@bitsavers.org> <4B5EEBB9.25376.EAF2E9@cclist.sydex.com> <4B63BB74.5080207@gmail.com> Message-ID: <47CA83B3-16FB-4EC6-955F-8DF99E0D24A2@neurotica.com> On Jan 29, 2010, at 11:54 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> Are we the only state in the US with no self-serve gas? And no >>> sales >>> tax? >> >> Self-serve is illegal in NJ, and Delaware has no sales tax. >> >> Oregon might be the only place with both, though. > > New Jersey only has sales tax on items above a certain amount. > ($110?) Is that a new thing? I grew up in NJ; there was always sales tax regardless of the amount. I moved away in 1992. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Fri Jan 29 21:20:59 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 21:20:59 -0600 Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B63A59B.2020203@tx.rr.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> Having learned assembly language programming on the beautifully >> simple architecture and instruction set of the 6800, the Byte magazine >> article linked to below that I read when it was originally published >> really impressed me. In the 6809 they made one of the earliest efforts >> I know of to really tweak an already great uP instruction set based upon >> an analysis of existing software: > > I found the 6809 to be by far the nicest 8-bit CPU I ever worked with. > The instruction set was simple and very orthogonal, the fact that you had > various relative addressing modes meant you could write truely > position-independant code, there were 2 stack points, and so on. Unlike > certain chips I could name, there were no major misfeatures that I came > across. > > Of course the problem (as we all know) is that it came out too late. By > that tine everybody was using the Z80 or 6502. Oh well. > > It always suprised me that hre BBC micro used the 6502 rather than the > 6809. By the time the Beeb was designed, Acorn had made a 6809 processor > board for their System machines, so they must have had experience with > the chip. THe Beeb is nice, but a Beeb with a 6809 processor would have > been something else :-) > > -tony > When I moved from the 6800 to the 6809 (in assembly language - *many* years ago) I was sort of astounded and at the same time very pleased by the way many of the little subroutines I had written for the 6800 became one instruction in the 6809. I think it will always be my favorite 8-bit CPU. My only annoyance at the time was the fact that there was no way for the software to reset the companion UART chip, whose number I've completely forgotten by now. 6821 maybe??? Later, Charlie Carothers From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Sat Jan 30 02:03:19 2010 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 09:03:19 +0100 Subject: ETH Lilith schematics online Message-ID: <4B63E7C7.1070704@bluewin.ch> I put my (reverse-engineered) ETH Lilith schematics in Eagle format online. ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/CAD If anyone is crazy and foolhardy enough to create new PCB's, then I want a set ! You'd want to do a bit of redesign though, at the very least modern DRAM's and a different diskdrive. Or do everything in a smallish FPGA... Jos From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sat Jan 30 03:32:21 2010 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 10:32:21 +0100 Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: <4B63A59B.2020203@tx.rr.com> References: <4B63A59B.2020203@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: From: "CSquared" Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 4:20 AM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Subject: Re: 6809 SBC > When I moved from the 6800 to the 6809 (in assembly language - *many* > years ago) I was sort of astounded and at the same time very pleased by > the way many of the little subroutines I had written for the 6800 became > one instruction in the 6809. I think it will always be my favorite > 8-bit CPU. My only annoyance at the time was the fact that there was no > way for the software to reset the companion UART chip, whose number I've > completely forgotten by now. 6821 maybe??? > Later, > Charlie Carothers I am somewhat a Motorola-guy, so a bit biased :-) Of the 8 bit CPUs the 6809 indeed would be my favorite. The 6821 PIA (parallel I/O) has the RST* pin, the 6850 ACIA (serial I/O) does not. - Henk. From alhartman at yahoo.com Sat Jan 30 08:00:17 2010 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 06:00:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Free for pickup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <990883.74434.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Of the items I posted earlier, the following is still available: Qty 2 - HP Laserjet IIIP Printers Box of Misc Network Adapter cards, ISA mixed 8 and 16 bit. Mostly 16 bit. All are Novell, Windows 3.x, Windows 95 and Lantastic Compatible. I have the following to add: 1 ZIP 100 Drive and Power Supply 1 Ditto Tape Backup Drive (Not sure if it still works due to age of rubber rollers) 1 Apple Imagewriter II Items are located in Keansburg, NJ 07734 Contact me off-list via PM. Thanks! Al Hartman From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jan 30 09:57:11 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 08:57:11 -0700 Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: References: <4B63A59B.2020203@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4B6456D7.6020509@jetnet.ab.ca> Henk Gooijen wrote: > I am somewhat a Motorola-guy, so a bit biased :-) Of the 8 bit CPUs the Umm so why do all your projects end up with PDP 11's or 8's :) > 6809 indeed would be my favorite. The 6821 PIA (parallel I/O) has the RST* > pin, the 6850 ACIA (serial I/O) does not. As I am currently working a CPLD/2901 homebrew computer design I will have to say that is my favorite at the moment. A 12 bit op code does make for a nice 8 bit micro style of computer, and I can manage to sqeaze in a full 18 bit address space. +-15 bits branches/18 bits calls. Ben. > - Henk. From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Jan 30 11:20:36 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 11:20:36 -0600 Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <201001300420.o0U4KalK004188@floodgap.com> References: <30EA3514-0FB1-4CFF-BBEC-953051A609DA@bellsouth.net> <201001300420.o0U4KalK004188@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <201001301736.o0UHaEsj043312@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 10:20 PM 1/29/2010, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >And the built-in MIDI. That was its killer feature to my musician buddy who >used an ST up until only a few years ago, when he replaced it with a Mac. What is this, 1987? Amiga realized the importance of MIDI. I still have my pre-release handmade dongle that RJ sent me. Commercial MIDI adapters were pretty cheap, which satisfied the tiny fraction of the market who wanted MIDI. - John From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Sat Jan 30 12:00:43 2010 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 13:00:43 -0500 Subject: Classic Epson printer emulators? Message-ID: <8dd2d95c1001301000o2b1de736ge2ae894ed58efb94@mail.gmail.com> Are there any free or open-source programs that can convert raw ESC/P (Epson printer code) data into bitmap images or PDFs or something? Many classic home computer programs rely on having a printer of this sort in order to print, and while many emulators have a way to dump serial or parallel output to a file, the only interpreters I can find to turn that raw data into something useful are commercial programs that I can't really justify the purchase of, given my student budget... Any help on this front would be much appreciated, Mike From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jan 30 12:21:07 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 11:21:07 -0700 Subject: ETH Lilith schematics online In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 30 Jan 2010 09:03:19 +0100. <4B63E7C7.1070704@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: Wow, just awesome. You're making me feel guilty for not having pictures of my Eve yet! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jan 30 12:24:23 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 13:24:23 -0500 Subject: ETH Lilith schematics online In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jan 30, 2010, at 1:21 PM, Richard wrote: > Wow, just awesome. > > You're making me feel guilty for not having pictures of my Eve yet! [cue 1970's porn music] -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Jan 30 12:45:17 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 10:45:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <201001301736.o0UHaEsj043312@billY.EZWIND.NET> from John Foust at "Jan 30, 10 11:20:36 am" Message-ID: <201001301845.o0UIjH1S011378@floodgap.com> > > And the built-in MIDI. That was its killer feature to my musician buddy who > > used an ST up until only a few years ago, when he replaced it with a Mac. > > What is this, 1987? Amiga realized the importance of MIDI. I still have my > pre-release handmade dongle that RJ sent me. Commercial MIDI adapters were > pretty cheap, which satisfied the tiny fraction of the market who wanted MIDI. I don't know much about MIDI on the Amiga, but I saw (my personal experience) many more STs doing music work than Amigas. If Amiga had this by 1987, it was obviously too late to make a significant dent in that particular niche, at least around here. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I'm joining my split ends individually." - From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jan 30 12:53:51 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 13:53:51 -0500 Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <201001301845.o0UIjH1S011378@floodgap.com> References: <201001301845.o0UIjH1S011378@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Jan 30, 2010, at 1:45 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> And the built-in MIDI. That was its killer feature to my musician >>> buddy who >>> used an ST up until only a few years ago, when he replaced it >>> with a Mac. >> >> What is this, 1987? Amiga realized the importance of MIDI. I >> still have my >> pre-release handmade dongle that RJ sent me. Commercial MIDI >> adapters were >> pretty cheap, which satisfied the tiny fraction of the market who >> wanted MIDI. > > I don't know much about MIDI on the Amiga, but I saw (my personal > experience) > many more STs doing music work than Amigas. If Amiga had this by > 1987, it > was obviously too late to make a significant dent in that > particular niche, > at least around here. I've seen this too. STs seem to be generally known as "music computers" by less-technical people who were around during that era. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 30 12:28:40 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 18:28:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: <4B63A59B.2020203@tx.rr.com> from "CSquared" at Jan 29, 10 09:20:59 pm Message-ID: > When I moved from the 6800 to the 6809 (in assembly language - *many* > years ago) I was sort of astounded and at the same time very pleased by > the way many of the little subroutines I had written for the 6800 became > one instruction in the 6809. I think it will always be my favorite > 8-bit CPU. My only annoyance at the time was the fact that there was no I was a confirmed Z80 hacker until I bought a CoCo 2 in a clearout sale. And after reading the 6809 data sheet I fell in love with that chip. > way for the software to reset the companion UART chip, whose number I've > completely forgotten by now. 6821 maybe??? The 6821 is the parallel chip (2 16 bit perts). The serial chip, commonly called te ACIA is the 6850. It needs an external baud rate generator. There was also the 6852 synchronous serial chip and the 6854 which did some other flavour of synchonous comms and was used in the Acorn Econet system Of course you could also use 6502-series I/O chips on a 6809 (and vice versa), the buses are essentially the sane,. The 6522 VIA is a nicer parallel chip (with counter/timers, a shift register, etc). The 6551 is a serial chip with a built-in baud rate generator. -tony From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sat Jan 30 13:27:37 2010 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 20:27:37 +0100 Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: <4B63A59B.2020203@tx.rr.com> <4B6456D7.6020509@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4B63A59B.2020203@tx.rr.com> <4B6456D7.6020509@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: From: "Ben" Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 4:57 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: 6809 SBC > Henk Gooijen wrote: >> I am somewhat a Motorola-guy, so a bit biased :-) Of the 8 bit CPUs the > Umm so why do all your projects end up with PDP 11's or 8's :) > > ...snip... > Ben. True! Just trying to combine hobbies. However, for something completely different, the main screen software in my StarShip uses the 6809 :-) to plot lines (Bresenham algorithm) and arcs/circles, but that would go OT. - Henk. From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Jan 30 16:51:42 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 17:51:42 -0500 Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <30EA3514-0FB1-4CFF-BBEC-953051A609DA@bellsouth.net> References: <201001291627.o0TGRGvE017160@floodgap.com> <30EA3514-0FB1-4CFF-BBEC-953051A609DA@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <4B64B7FE.3060407@atarimuseum.com> Also, the fact that Atari used the same format/fat scheme as standard IBM disks, with just some minor nuances which in later versions of TOS made it fully compatible, this was a God send, since it allowed sneaker-net exchanging of data between PC's and ST's and with low cost, simple upgrades like ATSPEED, which allowed a simple daughterboard install, gave ST's full speed IBM compatibilty, and having PC compatible floppies was the icing on the cake. What was truly the ST's major flaw was its display, while obviously a huge improvement for its time of 85', once the Amiga and Apple Mac II computers hit the scene with far higher resolutions and deeper on-screen at the same time color palletes, the ST's really began to lag. This was further compounded by the very slow introduction of upgrades to the Atari TOS, small incremental changes were made, while the Amiga OS and especially the Mac OS made large, noticable jumps in their features... this further hindered the ST's which quickly lost their polish and shine in the competing marketplace. Curt Geoff Oltmans wrote: > I think one thing in particular that the Atari ST had an advantage with was the addition of the hard disk/dma port. It made adding a hard disk a lot cheaper. Hard disk controllers on the Amiga were astronomical. > > > On Jan 29, 2010, at 10:27 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > >>> It was Shiraz's design, and it was following the same "power without >>> the price" methodology they did back at Commodore with the vic20 and >>> C64. At least according to them. Although the ST's main competitor >>> wound up being the Amiga, it was actually promoted as a cheaper full >>> color Macintosh (hence the Jackintosh). >>> >> The Atari ST is no match for the Amiga, but the ST is still a very nice >> system. I'm rather fond of them myself. >> >> -- >> ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- >> Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com >> -- FORTUNE: Travel is important today. The IRS will arrive tomorrow. ---------- >> > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 30 17:04:25 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 15:04:25 -0800 Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <4B64B7FE.3060407@atarimuseum.com> References: <201001291627.o0TGRGvE017160@floodgap.com>, <30EA3514-0FB1-4CFF-BBEC-953051A609DA@bellsouth.net>, <4B64B7FE.3060407@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4B644A79.16650.137FD04@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Jan 2010 at 17:51, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > What was truly the ST's major flaw was its display, while obviously a > huge improvement for its time of 85', once the Amiga and Apple Mac II > computers hit the scene with far higher resolutions and deeper > on-screen at the same time color palletes, the ST's really began to > lag. Honestly, what did in the ST for me was the terrible, terrible keyboard. I tried everything, including aftermarket bootster springs to make it halfway usable. Yes, later (and rarer) "business" versions of the system (e.g. the TT) finally used a decent keyboard, but by then, it was too late for me. By comparison, the keyboard on the lowly Atari 800 was pure luxury. --Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Jan 30 17:07:49 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 18:07:49 -0500 Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re:Editor religious wars) References: <201001291627.o0TGRGvE017160@floodgap.com><30EA3514-0FB1-4CFF-BBEC-953051A609DA@bellsouth.net> <4B64B7FE.3060407@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <010D0D99EF3648BB92E9E489ACFA6501@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 5:51 PM Subject: Re: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re:Editor religious wars) > What was truly the ST's major flaw was its display, while obviously a huge > improvement for its time of 85', once the Amiga and Apple Mac II computers > hit the scene with far higher resolutions and deeper on-screen at the same > time color palletes, the ST's really began to lag. This was further > compounded by the very slow introduction of upgrades to the Atari TOS, > small incremental changes were made, while the Amiga OS and especially the > Mac OS made large, noticable jumps in their features... this further > hindered the ST's which quickly lost their polish and shine in the > competing marketplace. > > > Curt The ST had that monochrome (cheap too at the time I think) 640x400 flicker free display perfect for doing work on. Mac II computers that could do VGA resolutions were many times the price of an ST http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_II "The Macintosh II was designed by hardware engineers Michael Dhuey (computer) and Brian Berkeley (monitor). A basic system with 20 Mb drive and monitor cost about $5200, A complete color-capable system could cost as much as $10,000 once the cost of the color monitor, video card, hard disk, keyboard and RAM were added.." The ST was always priced for entry level users to compete against the Mac line plus you could play games on it. They also had one of the cheapest laser printers at the time (granted used the ST CPU to do the real work). From tingox at gmail.com Sat Jan 30 06:00:36 2010 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 13:00:36 +0100 Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 7:49 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > NitrOS-9: http://www.nitros9.org/ > > Do the zip archives on soruceforge contain the full sources? If not, > where do I get the sources from? >From the downloads page: http://www.nitros9.org/downloads.html "You can get NitrOS-9's source code from SourceForge's CVS Repository". HTH -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Jan 30 17:16:09 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 18:16:09 -0500 Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <4B644A79.16650.137FD04@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201001291627.o0TGRGvE017160@floodgap.com>, <30EA3514-0FB1-4CFF-BBEC-953051A609DA@bellsouth.net>, <4B64B7FE.3060407@atarimuseum.com> <4B644A79.16650.137FD04@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B64BDB9.50608@atarimuseum.com> So true --- the same for the XE computers, mushy horrible feeling keyboards, just horrible! I still say that the best keyboard of any computer I've ever used (Atari, Apple, etc...) is the 1982 Atari 1200XL keyboard, it has a solid feel, silky smooth travel and the perfect amount of push back on it that just made you realize you were working on a truly high quality piece of equipment - nothing to date has ever come close. Curt Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 30 Jan 2010 at 17:51, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > >> What was truly the ST's major flaw was its display, while obviously a >> huge improvement for its time of 85', once the Amiga and Apple Mac II >> computers hit the scene with far higher resolutions and deeper >> on-screen at the same time color palletes, the ST's really began to >> lag. >> > > Honestly, what did in the ST for me was the terrible, terrible > keyboard. I tried everything, including aftermarket bootster springs > to make it halfway usable. > > Yes, later (and rarer) "business" versions of the system (e.g. the > TT) finally used a decent keyboard, but by then, it was too late for > me. By comparison, the keyboard on the lowly Atari 800 was pure > luxury. > > --Chuck > > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Jan 30 17:21:27 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 18:21:27 -0500 Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re:Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <010D0D99EF3648BB92E9E489ACFA6501@dell8300> References: <201001291627.o0TGRGvE017160@floodgap.com><30EA3514-0FB1-4CFF-BBEC-953051A609DA@bellsouth.net> <4B64B7FE.3060407@atarimuseum.com> <010D0D99EF3648BB92E9E489ACFA6501@dell8300> Message-ID: <4B64BEF7.60406@atarimuseum.com> I remember I was working for Entre Computer Centers as an on-site full time computer support engineer at Colgate Palmolive on Park Ave, across from the Waldof Astoria hotel.... we got in I think 3 of the first Mac II's in New York.... there was only 1 huge problem with them, the only monitors that could be used on them were these new versions of Sony monitors, and they weren't fully available yet and it took like 7-10 days before they arrived. The 3 exec's that were getting the Mac II's... it was hilarious, they wanted the computer sooooooooooooooo bad, that even without monitors, they wanted them installed in their offices and those machines sat there for like over a week - monitorless until the Sony displays arrived... I remember powering up the first Mac II and to see the Mac OS running in full GORGEOUS color was really breath-taking, ah the good old days when I used to actually get excited over technology... Curt Teo Zenios wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 5:51 PM > Subject: Re: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars > (was Re:Editor religious wars) > > >> What was truly the ST's major flaw was its display, while obviously a >> huge improvement for its time of 85', once the Amiga and Apple Mac II >> computers hit the scene with far higher resolutions and deeper >> on-screen at the same time color palletes, the ST's really began to >> lag. This was further compounded by the very slow introduction of >> upgrades to the Atari TOS, small incremental changes were made, while >> the Amiga OS and especially the Mac OS made large, noticable jumps in >> their features... this further hindered the ST's which quickly lost >> their polish and shine in the competing marketplace. >> >> >> Curt > > The ST had that monochrome (cheap too at the time I think) 640x400 > flicker free display perfect for doing work on. Mac II computers that > could do VGA resolutions were many times the price of an ST > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_II > > "The Macintosh II was designed by hardware engineers Michael Dhuey > (computer) and Brian Berkeley (monitor). A basic system with 20 Mb > drive and monitor cost about $5200, A complete color-capable system > could cost as much as $10,000 once the cost of the color monitor, > video card, hard disk, keyboard and RAM were added.." > > The ST was always priced for entry level users to compete against the > Mac line plus you could play games on it. They also had one of the > cheapest laser printers at the time (granted used the ST CPU to do the > real work). > > > > > From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Sat Jan 30 17:46:26 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 17:46:26 -0600 Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) In-Reply-To: <201001301845.o0UIjH1S011378@floodgap.com> References: <201001301845.o0UIjH1S011378@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <6F816570-4F59-485E-BD38-2152D55219D3@bellsouth.net> No kidding... the Atari ST was pretty prominent in the music industry. That's probably the only market it really made inroads in.. at least in North America. I think Germany was also a big market for them as well. On Jan 30, 2010, at 12:45 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> And the built-in MIDI. That was its killer feature to my musician buddy who >>> used an ST up until only a few years ago, when he replaced it with a Mac. >> >> What is this, 1987? Amiga realized the importance of MIDI. I still have my >> pre-release handmade dongle that RJ sent me. Commercial MIDI adapters were >> pretty cheap, which satisfied the tiny fraction of the market who wanted MIDI. > > I don't know much about MIDI on the Amiga, but I saw (my personal experience) > many more STs doing music work than Amigas. If Amiga had this by 1987, it > was obviously too late to make a significant dent in that particular niche, > at least around here. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I'm joining my split ends individually." - From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Jan 30 18:12:04 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 19:12:04 -0500 Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re:Editor religious wars) References: <201001291627.o0TGRGvE017160@floodgap.com><30EA3514-0FB1-4CFF-BBEC-953051A609DA@bellsouth.net> <4B64B7FE.3060407@atarimuseum.com><010D0D99EF3648BB92E9E489ACFA6501@dell8300> <4B64BEF7.60406@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <922D662BABB74569A106D274854CFA2D@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 6:21 PM Subject: Re: Atari/Commodore hybrid,was Re: General religious wars (was Re:Editor religious wars) >I remember I was working for Entre Computer Centers as an on-site full time >computer support engineer at Colgate Palmolive on Park Ave, across from the >Waldof Astoria hotel.... we got in I think 3 of the first Mac II's in New >York.... there was only 1 huge problem with them, the only monitors that >could be used on them were these new versions of Sony monitors, and they >weren't fully available yet and it took like 7-10 days before they arrived. >The 3 exec's that were getting the Mac II's... it was hilarious, they >wanted the computer sooooooooooooooo bad, that even without monitors, they >wanted them installed in their offices and those machines sat there for >like over a week - monitorless until the Sony displays arrived... I >remember powering up the first Mac II and to see the Mac OS running in full >GORGEOUS color was really breath-taking, ah the good old days when I used >to actually get excited over technology... > > > Curt > I guess they were too cheap to get 2 video cards and dual monitors then? Having multiple color monitors (easily setup if you had the cash) was one of the coolest things you could do on a Mac II/IIx/IIfx when it was unheard of on the PC Win3.1 machines. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Jan 30 18:13:39 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 22:13:39 -0200 Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re:Editor religious wars) References: <201001291627.o0TGRGvE017160@floodgap.com>, <30EA3514-0FB1-4CFF-BBEC-953051A609DA@bellsouth.net>, <4B64B7FE.3060407@atarimuseum.com><4B644A79.16650.137FD04@cclist.sydex.com> <4B64BDB9.50608@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <07d601caa20a$84c535d0$0101a8c0@Alexandre> > So true --- the same for the XE computers, mushy horrible feeling > keyboards, just horrible! I still say that the best keyboard of any > computer I've ever used (Atari, Apple, etc...) is the 1982 Atari 1200XL > keyboard, it has a solid feel, silky smooth travel and the perfect amount > of push back on it that just made you realize you were working on a truly > high quality piece of equipment - nothing to date has ever come close. Not only the 1200XL but also the 800XL and (I believe) the 600XL. It was a great keyboard!!! From grant at stockly.com Sat Jan 30 18:54:24 2010 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 15:54:24 -0900 Subject: Free Osborne Stuff Message-ID: <0KX3006S06IJRA70@msgmmp-1.gci.net> I have a 30lb or so box of Osborne manuals and software. I also have a non-working Osborne. The disk drive is probably dirty, it can't read disks. If anyone wants these, they are available for the cost of shipping. International is OK. Let me know ASAP because I want this stuff gone. ^^ Grant From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Jan 30 19:03:23 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 23:03:23 -0200 Subject: Atari/Commodore hybrid, was Re: General religious wars (was Re: Editor religious wars) References: <201001301845.o0UIjH1S011378@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <094501caa211$9b7d62f0$0101a8c0@Alexandre> >> > And the built-in MIDI. That was its killer feature to my musician buddy >> > who >> > used an ST up until only a few years ago, when he replaced it with a >> > Mac. >> What is this, 1987? Amiga realized the importance of MIDI. I still have >> my >> pre-release handmade dongle that RJ sent me. Commercial MIDI adapters >> were >> pretty cheap, which satisfied the tiny fraction of the market who wanted >> MIDI. > I don't know much about MIDI on the Amiga, but I saw (my personal > experience) > many more STs doing music work than Amigas. If Amiga had this by 1987, it > was obviously too late to make a significant dent in that particular > niche, > at least around here. With built-in MIDI, it was easy to make it a huge success between musicians. This is one of the (few) biggest mistakes of the Amiga From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Jan 30 19:04:11 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 23:04:11 -0200 Subject: 6809 SBC References: <4B63A59B.2020203@tx.rr.com><4B6456D7.6020509@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <094601caa211$9cac1ef0$0101a8c0@Alexandre> > True! Just trying to combine hobbies. However, for something completely > different, the main screen software in my StarShip uses the 6809 :-) > to plot lines (Bresenham algorithm) and arcs/circles, but that would go > OT. StarShip? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jan 30 20:06:11 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 21:06:11 -0500 Subject: IBM 026 weight Message-ID: I am looking for the overall dimensions and weight of an IBM 026 keypunch. Does anyone have this data handy? -- Will From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat Jan 30 21:19:25 2010 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 22:19:25 -0500 Subject: 6809 SBC Message-ID: <0317F94D04B5407E9E515FAF55CCAD25@andrewdesktop> http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2010-January/282022.html It always suprised me that hre BBC micro used the 6502 rather than the 6809. By the time the Beeb was designed, Acorn had made a 6809 processor board for their System machines, so they must have had experience with the chip. THe Beeb is nice, but a Beeb with a 6809 processor would have been something else :-) -tony Hi! When I designed the N8VEM 6809 host processor it is loosely based on an article I read for the BBC computer called "Dragon in the tube". I am not very familiar with the UK microcomputers but apparently 6809 "coprocessors" were fairly common peripherals on their Z80 and 6502 designs. I used a similar concept for the N8VEM to allow its Z80 SBC to access the 6809 as a "host processor" peripheral on the ECB. One of the builders was able to get CUBIX running on the N8VEM 6809 host processor using the Z80 as its "IO processor". However, I can see how the implementation can get confusing because it is either a Z80 based system with a 6809 coprocessor or a 6809 based system with a Z80 IO processor. In reality it doesn't really matter but it's a matter of perspective. The N8VEM 6809 CUBIX implementation allows the use of ECB peripherals like IDE, video, floppy, serial, parallel, etc but it requires the Z80 to serve all the IO based on 6809 commands. I added the 6809 IO mezzanine board (power, ACIA, PTM, 2 VIAs, expansion bus) to give builders the option of using the 6809 host processor as a stand alone computer or to add separate IO to the N8VEM system when connected to the bus. The idea being to let the 6809 host processor interact with the outside world using its own IO and only involve the Z80 when absolutely necessary. The hardware seems to work OK but we'll see where the software goes. I think with CUBIX the 6809 N8VEM system becomes a lot more practical. The IO mezzanine fits on top of the 6809 host processor. You can see some photos here. These are out of date but give a good idea. Recently I fitted an improved serial cable and the nylon standoff hardware. Also the PTM seems to be working and that's good. http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=m6809 I have many 6809 host processor and IO mezzanine PCBs so if anyone is interested please let me know. This would be a great opportunity for anyone who would like to do some 6809 hardware and software hacking. I think the N8VEM 6809 host processor is the only system I am aware of other than Dave's homebrew that is running CUBIX. There maybe some other homebrew systems out there too I can't find them after some searching. Thanks and have nice day! Andrew Lynch From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 30 22:44:44 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 20:44:44 -0800 Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4B649A3C.18179.26F8C2C@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Jan 2010 at 20:27, Henk Gooijen wrote: > True! Just trying to combine hobbies. However, for something > completely different, the main screen software in my StarShip uses the > 6809 :-) to plot lines (Bresenham algorithm) and arcs/circles, but > that would go OT. Was the 6809 all that wonderful for the time? Consider that the NS32016 was just starting to show up around 1980. Far more advanced architecture. If it wasn't for NS's attention-deficit-disorder, it might have found its way into many more systems. I've got an NS32CG16 (32016 with graphics extensions) that's waiting for a "sometime" SBC project. --Chuck From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sat Jan 30 22:09:31 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 22:09:31 -0600 Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: References: <4B63A59B.2020203@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4B65027B.4030008@tx.rr.com> Henk Gooijen wrote: > From: "CSquared" > Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 4:20 AM > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Subject: Re: 6809 SBC > >> When I moved from the 6800 to the 6809 (in assembly language - *many* >> years ago) I was sort of astounded and at the same time very pleased >> by the way many of the little subroutines I had written for the 6800 >> became one instruction in the 6809. I think it will always be my >> favorite 8-bit CPU. My only annoyance at the time was the fact that >> there was no way for the software to reset the companion UART chip, >> whose number I've completely forgotten by now. 6821 maybe??? >> Later, >> Charlie Carothers > > I am somewhat a Motorola-guy, so a bit biased :-) Of the 8 bit CPUs the > 6809 indeed would be my favorite. The 6821 PIA (parallel I/O) has the RST* > pin, the 6850 ACIA (serial I/O) does not. > > - Henk. Ah yes, 6850 and ACIA, thanks for the memory jog. I had completely forgotten both of those. I can't remember now precisely why I felt the need to reset the ACIA with a software controlled line, but ISTR I *really* needed to occasionally, and a power cycle was the only way. I do remember the little system had several of the ACIA's attached to one 6809 and I controlled a number of unique hardware devices that way. I got to do some 68000 stuff a few years later and liked it quite well too, though that was using C - my very first C as a matter of fact, along about 1986 or 1987. Later, Charlie C. From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sat Jan 30 22:19:04 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 22:19:04 -0600 Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B6504B8.9080404@tx.rr.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> When I moved from the 6800 to the 6809 (in assembly language - *many* >> years ago) I was sort of astounded and at the same time very pleased by >> the way many of the little subroutines I had written for the 6800 became >> one instruction in the 6809. I think it will always be my favorite >> 8-bit CPU. My only annoyance at the time was the fact that there was no > > I was a confirmed Z80 hacker until I bought a CoCo 2 in a clearout sale. > And after reading the 6809 data sheet I fell in love with that chip. > >> way for the software to reset the companion UART chip, whose number I've >> completely forgotten by now. 6821 maybe??? > > The 6821 is the parallel chip (2 16 bit perts). The serial chip, commonly > called te ACIA is the 6850. It needs an external baud rate generator. > There was also the 6852 synchronous serial chip and the 6854 which did > some other flavour of synchonous comms and was used in the Acorn Econet > system > > Of course you could also use 6502-series I/O chips on a 6809 (and vice > versa), the buses are essentially the sane,. The 6522 VIA is a nicer > parallel chip (with counter/timers, a shift register, etc). The 6551 is a > serial chip with a built-in baud rate generator. > > -tony > Many thanks to you and Henk for reminding me what the Motorola "UART" chips were called/numbered. All this discussion is making me want a CoCo unfortunately. Never had one when they were "new" but always thought they would be a lot of fun - maybe a garage sale will turn one up some day. Just what I don't need of course - yet another project or piece of hardware. Later, Charlie C. From alhartman at yahoo.com Sun Jan 31 04:46:54 2010 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 02:46:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Netframe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <195852.73901.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Back in the early 90's I worked for PC Technical Services in NYC. We sold and serviced Netframe systems. I became Netframe certified in 1990. Really nicely designed systems. I think they were bought by Dell at some point. Al From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun Jan 31 04:55:10 2010 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 11:55:10 +0100 Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: <4B63A59B.2020203@tx.rr.com><4B6456D7.6020509@jetnet.ab.ca> <094601caa211$9cac1ef0$0101a8c0@Alexandre> References: <4B63A59B.2020203@tx.rr.com><4B6456D7.6020509@jetnet.ab.ca> <094601caa211$9cac1ef0$0101a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: From: "Alexandre Souza - Listas" Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 2:04 AM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: 6809 SBC >> True! Just trying to combine hobbies. However, for something completely >> different, the main screen software in my StarShip uses the 6809 :-) >> to plot lines (Bresenham algorithm) and arcs/circles, but that would go >> OT. > > StarShip? Yup. See the bottom of my webpage. There are two small "gearboxes". One of them links to my StarShip. It is a project which did not get much attention the last 5 years or so. I hope to start on it this summer. That will also give a lot of new material on that site. - Henk (www.pdp-11.nl) From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun Jan 31 04:59:46 2010 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 11:59:46 +0100 Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: , <4B649A3C.18179.26F8C2C@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B649A3C.18179.26F8C2C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: From: "Chuck Guzis" Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 5:44 AM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: 6809 SBC > On 30 Jan 2010 at 20:27, Henk Gooijen wrote: > >> True! Just trying to combine hobbies. However, for something >> completely different, the main screen software in my StarShip uses the >> 6809 :-) to plot lines (Bresenham algorithm) and arcs/circles, but >> that would go OT. > > Was the 6809 all that wonderful for the time? Consider that the > NS32016 was just starting to show up around 1980. Far more advanced > architecture. If it wasn't for NS's attention-deficit-disorder, it > might have found its way into many more systems. > > I've got an NS32CG16 (32016 with graphics extensions) that's waiting > for a "sometime" SBC project. If the National CPU had received more attention back then, it might have been a lot more successful. Perhaps the absence of software and developers for it contributed to that. It would have helped if the popular magazines like Byte etc. had written more interesting articles. I know that some Oc? copiers had some National chips (32xxx, really can't remember) working as pixel processors for the generation of the bitmap. Never worked on that part of the machines though, always worked on the real-time control software. - Henk. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 07:55:52 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 11:55:52 -0200 Subject: 6809 SBC References: <4B63A59B.2020203@tx.rr.com><4B6456D7.6020509@jetnet.ab.ca><094601caa211$9cac1ef0$0101a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <0b6301caa27f$a8610f80$0101a8c0@Alexandre> > Yup. See the bottom of my webpage. There are two small "gearboxes". > One of them links to my StarShip. It is a project which did not get much > attention the last 5 years or so. I hope to start on it this summer. That > will > also give a lot of new material on that site. Nice control console :oD Will it blen...eh...fly to mars? :o) > - Henk (www.pdp-11.nl) HAHAHAHA PA8PDP!!! UHAUAUHAUHA!!! This one was GREAT! :oD 73' de PU1BZZ Alexandre :) From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sun Jan 31 08:31:25 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 14:31:25 +0000 Subject: IBM 026 weight In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <025BF97E-0A61-4861-9788-64F4B15042A7@microspot.co.uk> I had an 029 shipped across the atlantic last year. The 026 will weigh a bit more I think. I got the weight and dimensions for the carrier off of the original IBM spec on BitSavers. Of course if you could find the right search terms you might find Google could point you to a spec directly online. Roger On 31 Jan 2010, at 10:59, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Message: 20 > Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 21:06:11 -0500 > From: William Donzelli > Subject: IBM 026 weight > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > I am looking for the overall dimensions and weight of an IBM 026 > keypunch. Does anyone have this data handy? > > -- > Will From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sun Jan 31 08:46:06 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 14:46:06 +0000 Subject: Classic Epson printer emulators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I haven't seen one but its not difficult to write one for yourself. I had one for H.P. RTL which we used for testing our large format printer drivers a few years ago. I think I still have an Epson manual which summarises their different small printer command codes I could copy, if you fancy writing something. I don't know if there is a collection of printer and plotter manuals online anywhere. BitSavers seems very light on them, I checked recently to see if I could free up the six feet of shelf space occupied by such manuals at my office but no such luck, so I will have to keep hold of them for now. Al seems to be snowed under at the moment, I scanned and sent him the ICT1301 programmers reference manual 12 months ago but it has not appeared yet. Roger. On 31 Jan 2010, at 10:59, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 13:00:43 -0500 > From: Michael Kerpan > Subject: Classic Epson printer emulators? > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > <8dd2d95c1001301000o2b1de736ge2ae894ed58efb94 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Are there any free or open-source programs that can convert raw ESC/P > (Epson printer code) data into bitmap images or PDFs or something? > Many classic home computer programs rely on having a printer of this > sort in order to print, and while many emulators have a way to dump > serial or parallel output to a file, the only interpreters I can find > to turn that raw data into something useful are commercial programs > that I can't really justify the purchase of, given my student > budget... > > Any help on this front would be much appreciated, > Mike From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 31 09:16:51 2010 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 07:16:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <7057.99350.qm@web111516.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> > Tony Duell wrote: > >> Having learned assembly language programming on the beautifully > >> simple architecture and instruction set of the 6800, the Byte magazine > >> article linked to below that I read when it was originally published > >> really impressed me.? In the 6809 they made one of the earliest efforts > >> I know of to really tweak an already great uP instruction set based upon > >> an analysis of existing software: > > > > I found the 6809 to be by far the nicest 8-bit CPU I ever worked with. > > The instruction set was simple and very orthogonal, the fact that you had > > various relative addressing modes meant you could write truely > > position-independant code, there were 2 stack points, and so on. Unlike > > certain chips I could name, there were no major misfeatures that I came > > across. > > > > Of course the problem (as we all know) is that it came out too late. By > > that tine everybody was using the Z80 or 6502. Oh well. > > > > It always suprised me that hre BBC micro used the 6502 rather than the > > 6809. By the time the Beeb was designed, Acorn had made a 6809 processor > > board for their System machines, so they must have had experience with > > the chip. THe Beeb is nice, but a Beeb with a 6809 processor would have > > been something else :-) > > > > -tony > > > When I moved from the 6800 to the 6809 (in assembly language - *many* > years ago) I was sort of astounded and at the same time very pleased by > the way many of the little subroutines I had written for the 6800 became > one instruction in the 6809.? I think it will always be my favorite > 8-bit CPU.? My only annoyance at the time was the fact that there was no > way for the software to reset the companion UART chip, whose number I've > completely forgotten by now.? 6821 maybe??? > Later, > Charlie Carothers I was so impressed I even took a photo of it. A photo of the die of an Atmel EF6809CV is a short way down my page here: http://diephotos.blogspot.com/ From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Jan 31 10:24:45 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 11:24:45 -0500 Subject: Netframe In-Reply-To: <195852.73901.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <195852.73901.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B65AECD.506@atarimuseum.com> I loved working on Netframes - they were just sooooooooooo cool looking. It was a bit of a pain to setup the SPX consoles in the beginning, but once you got the hang of it, they were great. Yeah, I think you're right, Dell picked them up, essentially dropped most of the design, used a few pieces of the core architecture and did their Powerframe or Poweredge servers which were so cheaply made and so flimsy, you could never ever even move a live server on its casters, the box would shift and a board would also lose contact and the whole server would freeze up. Curt Al Hartman wrote: > Back in the early 90's I worked for PC Technical Services in NYC. We sold and serviced Netframe systems. I became Netframe certified in 1990. > > Really nicely designed systems. > > I think they were bought by Dell at some point. > > Al > > > From dbwood at kc.rr.com Sun Jan 31 10:31:09 2010 From: dbwood at kc.rr.com (dbwood at kc.rr.com) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 16:31:09 +0000 Subject: Free Osborne Stuff In-Reply-To: <0KX3006S06IJRA70@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <20100131163109.986K7.24291.root@hrndva-web18-z01> Any estimates as to the cost for shipping? Douglas Wood Leavenworth, KS 66048 ---- Grant Stockly wrote: > I have a 30lb or so box of Osborne manuals and software. > > I also have a non-working Osborne. The disk drive is probably dirty, > it can't read disks. > > If anyone wants these, they are available for the cost of > shipping. International is OK. > > Let me know ASAP because I want this stuff gone. ^^ > > Grant > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 31 10:57:32 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 11:57:32 -0500 Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: <7057.99350.qm@web111516.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <7057.99350.qm@web111516.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jan 31, 2010, at 10:16 AM, William Blair wrote: > I was so impressed I even took a photo of it. A photo of the die > of an Atmel EF6809CV is a short way down my page here: > > http://diephotos.blogspot.com/ Those images are nothing short of breathtaking. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 31 10:59:21 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 11:59:21 -0500 Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: References: <4B63A59B.2020203@tx.rr.com><4B6456D7.6020509@jetnet.ab.ca> <094601caa211$9cac1ef0$0101a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: On Jan 31, 2010, at 5:55 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >>> True! Just trying to combine hobbies. However, for something >>> completely >>> different, the main screen software in my StarShip uses the 6809 :-) >>> to plot lines (Bresenham algorithm) and arcs/circles, but that >>> would go OT. >> >> StarShip? > > Yup. See the bottom of my webpage. There are two small "gearboxes". > One of them links to my StarShip. It is a project which did not get > much > attention the last 5 years or so. I hope to start on it this > summer. That will > also give a lot of new material on that site. Neat! Very nice work! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Jan 31 11:06:36 2010 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 12:06:36 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 video, was Re: VSV11 on pdp11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2356472F211443B3A16A331E8DEDEB0D@andrewdesktop> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 1:54 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: PDP-11 video, was Re: VSV11 on pdp11 > > On Jan 21, 2010, at 12:52 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > I have one 3rd party PDP-11 video card, and while most likely have > > RSX-11M > > software for it, I lack the means to actually hook it up to > > anything (or > > anything to hook it up to). > > I have a nice little dual-width Qbus board with a TMS9918 (classic > app-note circuit) on it. I've never messed with it, but I hope to > find time to someday. It'll be fun. > > -Dave > > > > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL [AJL>] Hi Dave! The next board we're making for the N8VEM project is an ECB "color graphics and sound" peripheral. The goal is MSX BIOS level compatibility. It probably won't be fully compatible with all MSX applications but should allow "well behaved" applications work that use the MSX BIOS. The board will have a TMS9918 for color graphics and AY-3-8910 for sound as per the MSX specification. We are considering some other items as well such as a SP0256-AL2 and/or CT5256A-AL2 depending on how the prototyping goes. So far, we've got three TMS9918 prototypes working. The board has a SRAM modification so no fussy 4116 DRAMs are needed. If you or anyone else is interested in helping develop and/or test a modern ECB TMS9918 board. Unfortunately, I've fallen woefully behind on my prototyping efforts as this week I got fully absorbed into this S-100 front panel board John and I are working on. John's got a prototype and I'm trying to make the PCB board. The schematic is done and the PCB has a layout but the trace routing is proving to be highly problematic. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun Jan 31 11:41:14 2010 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 12:41:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Seeking Dynabyte Naked Terminal docs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Does any have the documentation for the Dynabyte Naked Terminal (S100) card? In particular, I need switch settings and keyboard connector pinout. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From brain at jbrain.com Sun Jan 31 11:50:22 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 11:50:22 -0600 Subject: Classic Epson printer emulators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B65C2DE.8000208@jbrain.com> Couldn't one use CUPS for this, setting up a EPSON printer queue, but attaching it to a PDF printer: http://embraceubuntu.com/2006/03/23/print-to-pdf-using-cups-pdf/ Maybe not, I'm just brainstorming. Jim From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Jan 31 12:02:34 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 11:02:34 -0700 Subject: ISO HP-UX 9.10 install CD In-Reply-To: <4A9ECCA6.8090209@bitsavers.org> References: <4A9ECCA6.8090209@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4B65C5BA.1000106@e-bbes.com> Al Kossow wrote: > I need to get a system running to recover some data from some > HPIB drives. Does anyone have one to spare, or an ISO image of it? Did you ever got the CDs ? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 31 12:36:14 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 18:36:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Classic Epson printer emulators In-Reply-To: from "Roger Holmes" at Jan 31, 10 02:46:06 pm Message-ID: > > I haven't seen one but its not difficult to write one for yourself. I = > had one for H.P. RTL which we used for testing our large format printer = > drivers a few years ago. I think I still have an Epson manual which = > summarises their different small printer command codes I could copy, if = > you fancy writing something. I don't know if there is a collection of = > printer and plotter manuals online anywhere. BitSavers seems very light = When I was looking for an Epson printer to fit the HPIB or HPIL interface cards into, I poked around on the Epson website. They have a lot of fairly old printer user manauls available to download, many of which contain the Esc-P command set. One tip : You;ll find a lot more classic manuals if you tell the site you're in the States than if you say you're in the UK. I have no idea why this is... I was amazed that Epson still seem to sell 9 pin and 24 pin dot matrix printers. Presumably some people still require multi-part carbon forms. And the printer ribbon vartridge seems to be unchanged from the days of the MX80, you can still get ribbons for that machine. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 31 12:16:32 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 18:16:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: from "Torfinn Ingolfsen" at Jan 30, 10 01:00:36 pm Message-ID: > > On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 7:49 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > > NitrOS-9: http://www.nitros9.org/ > > > > Do the zip archives on soruceforge contain the full sources? If not, > > where do I get the sources from? > > > >From the downloads page: > http://www.nitros9.org/downloads.html > "You can get NitrOS-9's source code from SourceForge's CVS Repository". Yes, I saw that comment, hence my original question. Nowhere (that I can see) on Sourceforget does it say whether the 'distribution' .zip files include the sources, or whether I need to get some other files, and if so where they are. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 31 12:27:55 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 18:27:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: <0317F94D04B5407E9E515FAF55CCAD25@andrewdesktop> from "Andrew Lynch" at Jan 30, 10 10:19:25 pm Message-ID: > Hi! When I designed the N8VEM 6809 host processor it is loosely based on an > article I read for the BBC computer called "Dragon in the tube". I am not Ther 'tube' was an interface on the BBC micro ro link up a so-called second processor. The connector on the Beeb carried a subset of the system bus signals (8 data lines, a few address lines, an address decoder output, r/w, and so on). THe second processors, at least the official Acorn ones, had a ULA chip that contained a couple of FIFOs to act as an interface between the 2 machines. The reason for the name of that article is thus obvious. THe Dragon was, of course, the most common 6809-based computer in the UK. The name 'tube' came from the fact it was a connnection to trasnfer data between the 2 porcessors, also becasue the London Underground (railway) is commonly called the Tube. In that sense it is an alternative to a bus (as a form of public transport), I am sure the connection between bus and tube was appreciated at Acron. The Tatung Einstein's system bus was called the 'Pipe', presumably as a pun on 'tube'. > very familiar with the UK microcomputers but apparently 6809 "coprocessors" > were fairly common peripherals on their Z80 and 6502 designs. I used a Were they? I've never heard of one. Acorn never (AFAIK) made a 6809 second processor for the BBC micro. The original series of second processors (in 'chesse wedge' cases to fit alongside the BBC micro) were the 65C02, Z80A, 32016 (originally 16032 :-)) and ARM 1. There was also a 32016 board with 4 times as much RAM that was used in the Acorn Cambridge WOrkstation There were internal second processor boards for the Master series, including a 80186-based one. But I've never heard of a 6809 one there either. > similar concept for the N8VEM to allow its Z80 SBC to access the 6809 as a > "host processor" peripheral on the ECB. Is this article available on-line anywhere? Or do you have a reference to it? It sounds as though it might be worth reading. -tony From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 31 12:42:57 2010 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 10:42:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 77, Issue 68 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <362153.20019.qm@web111503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> > Dave McGuire wrote: > > William Blair wrote: > > I was so impressed I even took a photo of it.? A photo of the die? > > of an Atmel EF6809CV is a short way down my page here: > > > > http://diephotos.blogspot.com/ > > ???Those images are nothing short of breathtaking. > > ? ? ? ? ???-Dave Thanks. Thousands of people did 99.999% of the job, I just took a photo of their absolutely beautiful and incredibly useful product. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 31 12:44:55 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 18:44:55 -0000 Subject: HP Connect Membership for Hobbyist VMS Licence In-Reply-To: <000801caa29c$c9a804b0$6501a8c0@HP24150918428> References: <003401caa131$497bf3d0$dc73db70$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> <000801caa29c$c9a804b0$6501a8c0@HP24150918428> Message-ID: <001e01caa2a5$7f9b53f0$7ed1fbd0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Daniel Snyder [mailto:ddsnyder at zoominternet.net] > Sent: 31 January 2010 17:43 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Cc: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com > Subject: Re: HP Connect Membership for Hobbyist VMS Licence > > From a posting in c.o.v. - > > DECUServe is now an official Hobbyist Chapter, and DECUServe > subscribers now > have OpenVMS Hobbyist benefits. > > DECUServe provides a friendly platform, primarily using the DEC Notes > conferencing system, but also providing a full OpenVMS account. > > > If you don't already have an account on DECUServe (aka Encompasserve > aka > Eisner.DECUS.org) -- registration is free. To register for DECUServe, > just > Telnet to decuserve.org (or eisner.decus.org), use username > REGISTRATION, > and follow the simple instructions. We do appreciate it if you supply > true > information - and we don't share that information. > > > You will need your "DECUServe Number" to request Hobbyist licenses. > You are > told that number during the DECUServe registration process (please > write it > down). Or... > > > To check your DECUServe registration details needed to request Hobbyist > Licenses, you can just type $ HOBBYIST. > > > DECUServe transmits membership information to the Hobbyist Program > twice > weekly. If you have recently registered on DECUServe, please allow > time for > that transfer and for loading into the Hobbyist database. > Thanks. Someone else reminded me of the same thing. I had forgotten about this and I am in fact already registered on DECUServe, although to be honest I am not active there. I will let my Encompass/Connect membership lapse and stick to DECUServe. Regards Rob From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 31 13:11:40 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 14:11:40 -0500 Subject: Classic Epson printer emulators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jan 31, 2010, at 1:36 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I was amazed that Epson still seem to sell 9 pin and 24 pin dot matrix > printers. Presumably some people still require multi-part carbon > forms. > And the printer ribbon vartridge seems to be unchanged from the > days of > the MX80, you can still get ribbons for that machine. Okidata does too, as do many other manufacturers. Even the venerable Okidata Microline 320 is available with a USB interface. They're almost always used for multi-part forms and individual print jobs which require less than a whole page of output, like receipt printers. I'm doing some consulting work for a local retail chain that uses USB-connected Oki 320s as receipt printers for single- part pin-fed forms. This is preferable to a laser printer because they get three to a page, significantly reducing their paper usage. Dedicated thermal receipt printers are nice, but from what I've heard they're not as reliable as dot-matrix impact printers in the field. That seems odd to me, but I guess the heating elements dying does make some sense. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 31 13:13:39 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 14:13:39 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 77, Issue 68 In-Reply-To: <362153.20019.qm@web111503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <362153.20019.qm@web111503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3F65DB5B-E0F5-4B01-A63B-B1D7C70D116A@neurotica.com> On Jan 31, 2010, at 1:42 PM, William Blair wrote: >>> I was so impressed I even took a photo of it. A photo of the die >>> of an Atmel EF6809CV is a short way down my page here: >>> >>> http://diephotos.blogspot.com/ >> >> Those images are nothing short of breathtaking. > > Thanks. Thousands of people did 99.999% of the job, I just took a > photo of their absolutely beautiful and incredibly useful product. Don't sell yourself short. I know a bit about microscopy (Vickers Photoplan optical and ETec Autoscan SEM here) and I know how difficult it is to make good pictures...and those are among the best I've ever seen, of any subject matter. In fact, I'd like to print a few out on a dye sub printer and maybe hang them up in my office, if you wouldn't mind that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 31 13:26:51 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 11:26:51 -0800 Subject: Classic Epson printer emulators In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4B6568FB.13639.52928C@cclist.sydex.com> Many older laser printers also had MX80 emulation. My Panasonic certainly does, as well as Diablo 630 daisy-wheel emulation. --Chuck From drb at msu.edu Sun Jan 31 12:53:12 2010 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 13:53:12 -0500 Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sun, 31 Jan 2010 18:16:32 GMT.) References: Message-ID: <201001311853.o0VIrCW5004678@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Yes, I saw that comment, hence my original question. Nowhere (that I can > see) on Sourceforget does it say whether the 'distribution' .zip files > include the sources, or whether I need to get some other files, and if > so where they are. The downloads on the nitros9.org site are too small to include source. The checkout I just got from CVS is about 56 MB flat, 18 MB zipped. You can grab my zip file if you want (well, in a few minutes when it finishes uploading): http://yagi.h-net.msu.edu/nitros9src.zip Note that since I just pulled CVS without specifying a branch, it's roughly equivalent to today's daily build. De From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Jan 31 13:49:40 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 11:49:40 -0800 Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: <4B65027B.4030008@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: On 1/30/10 8:09 PM, "CSquared" wrote: > Ah yes, 6850 and ACIA, thanks for the memory jog. I had completely > forgotten both of those. I can't remember now precisely why I felt the > need to reset the ACIA with a software controlled line, but ISTR I > *really* needed to occasionally, and a power cycle was the only way. I > do remember the little system had several of the ACIA's attached to one > 6809 and I controlled a number of unique hardware devices that way. I > got to do some 68000 stuff a few years later and liked it quite well > too, though that was using C - my very first C as a matter of fact, > along about 1986 or 1987. > Later, > Charlie C. Hmmm, possibly It is because I am more of a hardware guy anymore than a software guy, but couldn't you make an adapter pcb for the ACIA chip, that had a relay and a few other componants on it, like a 555 set as a timer, and when the 555 is triggered, it would power off your acia for a preset amount of time by tripping the relay so the VCC pin no longer gets voltage, then at the end of the timing cycle it returns the relay to normal position and the acia comes back on and you set baud, etc.... From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Jan 31 14:27:11 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 20:27:11 +0000 Subject: Classic Epson printer emulators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B65E79F.5090903@philpem.me.uk> Dave McGuire wrote: > Dedicated thermal receipt printers are nice, but from what I've heard > they're not as reliable as dot-matrix impact printers in the field. > That seems odd to me, but I guess the heating elements dying does make > some sense. There's one major issue with direct thermal: ink fade. Basically the printing fades over time. Some retailers love this, because after about 8 months the receipt is basically blank -- "Sir, we'd be happy to accept that under the 12-month guarantee, but we need a receipt -- not a blank strip of paper." For bonus points: heat and light make it fade quicker. Leave a thermal-print receipt on a windowsill on the 1st of the month and it'll be blank by the end of the month. Leave it on or near a radiator and it'll go completely black within a few minutes. There are also significant chemical compatibility issues. Most notably, applying a strip of Sellotape to a thermal-printed slip/receipt causes the ink to fade over a matter of hours (or in some cases minutes). This is great fun in photo labs -- you have an order slip with the order number on it, which the customer takes to the counter to pay. That's then taped to an order docket, which is given to the lab guy to print. Catch: tape erases the printing on the order slip, so you by the time the prints are done, you've got a docket and no matching order number. (Process C-41 bleach-fix fumes just serve to speed up the fading process!) Such fun. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Jan 31 14:46:30 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 20:46:30 +0000 Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B65EC26.2040509@dunnington.plus.com> On 31/01/2010 19:49, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > On 1/30/10 8:09 PM, "CSquared" wrote: > >> Ah yes, 6850 and ACIA, thanks for the memory jog. I had completely >> forgotten both of those. I can't remember now precisely why I felt the >> need to reset the ACIA with a software controlled line, but ISTR I >> *really* needed to occasionally, and a power cycle was the only way. I >> do remember the little system had several of the ACIA's attached to one >> 6809 and I controlled a number of unique hardware devices that way. > Hmmm, possibly It is because I am more of a hardware guy anymore than a > software guy, but couldn't you make an adapter pcb for the ACIA chip, that > had a relay and a few other componants on it, like a 555 set as a timer, and > when the 555 is triggered, it would power off your acia for a preset amount > of time by tripping the relay so the VCC pin no longer gets voltage, then at > the end of the timing cycle it returns the relay to normal position and the > acia comes back on and you set baud, etc.... I am really puzzled by this. The ACIA has no hardware reset line, but it's very easy to send it a master reset command in software. In fact, you have to do that to clear the hardware reset condition after a power up, because the ACIA stays in the inactive/reset condition until you program it. Charlie, you weren't using GTE 68C50s, were you? They did have a few weird bugs. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Jan 31 14:50:42 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 14:50:42 -0600 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 77, Issue 68 In-Reply-To: <3F65DB5B-E0F5-4B01-A63B-B1D7C70D116A@neurotica.com> References: <362153.20019.qm@web111503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <3F65DB5B-E0F5-4B01-A63B-B1D7C70D116A@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201001312054.o0VKs502007746@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 01:13 PM 1/31/2010, Dave McGuire wrote: >On Jan 31, 2010, at 1:42 PM, William Blair wrote: >>>>I was so impressed I even took a photo of it. A photo of the die >>>>of an Atmel EF6809CV is a short way down my page here: > > In fact, I'd like to print a few out on a dye sub printer and >maybe hang them up in my office, if you wouldn't mind that. The FinePix S5100 is a 4 megapixel camera (max 2,272 x 1,704 pixels). - John From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 31 15:12:22 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 16:12:22 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 77, Issue 68 In-Reply-To: <201001312054.o0VKs502007746@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <362153.20019.qm@web111503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <3F65DB5B-E0F5-4B01-A63B-B1D7C70D116A@neurotica.com> <201001312054.o0VKs502007746@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: On Jan 31, 2010, at 3:50 PM, John Foust wrote: >>>>> I was so impressed I even took a photo of it. A photo of the die >>>>> of an Atmel EF6809CV is a short way down my page here: >> >> In fact, I'd like to print a few out on a dye sub printer and >> maybe hang them up in my office, if you wouldn't mind that. > > The FinePix S5100 is a 4 megapixel camera (max 2,272 x 1,704 pixels). My dye sub (Kodak 8500) is 314dpi, so an 8x10 would be 3140x2512. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 31 15:11:19 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 21:11:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Classic Epson printer emulators In-Reply-To: <4B65E79F.5090903@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jan 31, 10 08:27:11 pm Message-ID: > > Dave McGuire wrote: > > Dedicated thermal receipt printers are nice, but from what I've heard > > they're not as reliable as dot-matrix impact printers in the field. > > That seems odd to me, but I guess the heating elements dying does make > > some sense. > > There's one major issue with direct thermal: ink fade. Basically the Indeed. Many older (HP) calculators used thermal paper. It'sa good idea to make photocopies (or I guess scans these days) of any printouts you want to keep. It's not generally realsied that themral printouts fade with time. I was chatting to somebody from a major museum and he didn't realise the historically-significant calculator printouts needed to be copied _NOW_. > printing fades over time. Some retailers love this, because after about > 8 months the receipt is basically blank -- "Sir, we'd be happy to accept > that under the 12-month guarantee, but we need a receipt -- not a blank > strip of paper." > > For bonus points: heat and light make it fade quicker. Leave a > thermal-print receipt on a windowsill on the 1st of the month and it'll > be blank by the end of the month. Leave it on or near a radiator and > it'll go completely black within a few minutes. Needless to say a soldering iron works just as well. I've been known to use one to check if the paper is still thermally sensitive, and to see which is the sensitive side. > There are also significant chemical compatibility issues. Most notably, Propan-2-ol will darken most thermal paper, as I fopudn out the hard way when clening a bit of hardware with said solvent and some othe spray landed on some printouts from my LogicDart (it uses the HP82440 IR thermal printer).. > applying a strip of Sellotape to a thermal-printed slip/receipt causes Pehaps I've been lucky,but I've not had any prolems sticking down HP calculator printouts with 3M 'magic tape' onto a piece of plain paper to make them easier to copy. [...] -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jan 31 15:47:50 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 14:47:50 -0700 Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: <201001311853.o0VIrCW5004678@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <201001311853.o0VIrCW5004678@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4B65FA86.8080300@jetnet.ab.ca> Dennis Boone wrote: > > Yes, I saw that comment, hence my original question. Nowhere (that I can > > see) on Sourceforget does it say whether the 'distribution' .zip files > > include the sources, or whether I need to get some other files, and if > > so where they are. > > The downloads on the nitros9.org site are too small to include source. > The checkout I just got from CVS is about 56 MB flat, 18 MB zipped. You > can grab my zip file if you want (well, in a few minutes when it > finishes uploading): > > http://yagi.h-net.msu.edu/nitros9src.zip > > Note that since I just pulled CVS without specifying a branch, it's > roughly equivalent to today's daily build. I wonder if that is every thing or just the kernel? Is that written in C or ASM? > De > Ben From drb at msu.edu Sun Jan 31 17:50:32 2010 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 18:50:32 -0500 Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sun, 31 Jan 2010 14:47:50 MST.) <4B65FA86.8080300@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4B65FA86.8080300@jetnet.ab.ca> <201001311853.o0VIrCW5004678@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <201001312350.o0VNoW9S019484@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I wonder if that is every thing or just the kernel? >From inspection, kernel in several variants (l1, l2, l3, 6309, etc.), externals, third party applications/utilities/games/languages, etc. > Is that written in C or ASM? Again from inspection, there's a bit of C, but the kernel proper seems to be almost entirely asm. De From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Jan 31 17:54:24 2010 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 18:54:24 -0500 Subject: 6809 SBC Message-ID: <178591A3FB52492EB9CF9083FBE4B3A4@andrewdesktop> http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2010-January/282094.html Is this article available on-line anywhere? Or do you have a reference to it? It sounds as though it might be worth reading. -tony Hi Tony, there are several related articles here: http://mdfs.net/Software/Tube/6809/ Like I said earlier, I am not familiar with the UK microcomputers but when I was researching how to make a 6809 "host processor"/coprocessor it seems like I found several 6809 coprocessor designs. I think Graham Harston frequently posts on comp.os.cpm and he is a hosting the 6809 information related to the BBC and Acorn computers. None of the designs I found were exactly what I was looking for but there was enough ideas that I could cobble together a working prototype. The N8VEM 6809 host processor appears as an ECB 8255 PPI peripheral to the SBC Z80 and as a 6821 PIA peripheral to the 6809. Whether that was a great design or not remains to be seen although it seems to work well enough that Dan got CUBIX ported and I got ASSIST09 and MINIBUG working. Frankly, I think the 8255 PPI strobe and acknowledge handshaking leaves a lot to be desired compared to the 6821 PIA but neither were exactly cooperative IMO. I like 6809 architecture and personally think it was probably the apex of the 8 bit CPUs and (albeit admitted only begrudgingly) better overall than my beloved Z80. Also I think the 6809 hardware is obviously well thought out as it was amazingly easy to get the breadboard systems working. So far the N8VEM 6809 computer has worked great. It hasn't been terribly popular but I made it mostly because I thought it was neat idea. I can see why people like the 6809 so much. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch, 73 de N8VEM From fjgjr1 at aol.com Sun Jan 31 18:04:56 2010 From: fjgjr1 at aol.com (fjgjr1 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 19:04:56 -0500 Subject: Free Osborne Stuff In-Reply-To: <20100131163109.986K7.24291.root@hrndva-web18-z01> Message-ID: <8CC70E952487CCF-4B84-283ED@webmail-m048.sysops.aol.com> Yea, Where are you ? Can you give more detailed specifics of what you have? If only a disk drive issue, then easily fixed, even by you so get higher price ??? Thanks! Frank -----Original Message----- From: dbwood at kc.rr.com To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:31 am Subject: Re: Free Osborne Stuff Any estimates as to the cost for shipping? Douglas Wood eavenworth, KS 66048 ---- Grant Stockly wrote: I have a 30lb or so box of Osborne manuals and software. I also have a non-working Osborne. The disk drive is probably dirty, it can't read disks. If anyone wants these, they are available for the cost of shipping. International is OK. Let me know ASAP because I want this stuff gone. ^^ Grant From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Jan 31 18:27:20 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 19:27:20 -0500 Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: References: <4B6257C6.3090706@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4B661FE8.3020901@compsys.to> >Dave McGuire wrote: > >On Jan 28, 2010, at 10:36 PM, Ben wrote: > >> Well if remember right a 2 MHZ 6809 with Memory Managment Unit >> could run 2 to 5 users under OS/9 level two at modest serial >> baud rates.( 300 to 1200 baud ) That to me is a full system. I >> consider a 6809, 1/3 a PDP 11 in computing power as a ballpark. > > And you do realize "PDP-11" spanned some two and a half decades and > more than a dozen implementations with a huge range of processing > power ranging from "wimpy" to "big clanging brass balls", right? If you allow an implementation done by way of emulation, then the computing power of a PDP-11 is still increasing. While 3rd party CPU boards (from QED and Mentec as just two examples) were restricted to about ten times the speed of the DEC PDP-11/93, under Ersatz-11, I normally realize about 100 times the speed of the PDP-11/93 on an Intel Q9550 CPU running WXP and for the disk I/O using SATA 300 drives about 200 times the speed of the better ESDI and SCSI hard drives available with a Qbus controller to use on the PDP-11/93. And even a commercial license for Ersatz-11 is less than the current price of a PDP-11/93, let alone the DEC price when first released. What do you call 100 * "big clanging brass balls"? Any comments from the hardware side of the fence? So that twenty-five year span can be extended to a forty year span. Note that there will be a number of problems in running 3rd party hardware under Ersatz-11 since the Logical Company no longer makes PCI <=> Qbus adapters. Does anyone know of a source of these boards (used at this point)? It is possible to write a DLL to emulate these boards, but it may be quite time consuming for some of them. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Jan 31 18:29:00 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 19:29:00 -0500 Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: References: <4B6257C6.3090706@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B6262D4.70307@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4B66204C.4050807@compsys.to> >Dave McGuire wrote: >>> And you do realize "PDP-11" spanned some two and a half decades and >>> more >>> than a dozen implementations with a huge range of processing power >>> ranging from "wimpy" to "big clanging brass balls", right? >> >> Yes, but the PDP 11 was designed to have raw power from the original >> design. OK, they goofed on a basic address space of 18 bits. > > 16 bits, actually. The two MMU architectures extended that to 18 and > 22 bits. I wouldn't call it a goof considering the first one came > out in 1970. For a small lab minicomputer in 1970, 64KB isn't bad at > all. Considering the cost of CORE memory in 1970, 64KB was much larger than any PDP-11 at that time. 8KB was a common system. Even up to around 1975, I don't think there was an MMU available in any case. Does anyone know when the MMU was first used with more than 64KB of memory for the system? As for total memory available to use for temporary work space, when I run Ersatz-11 under WXP on a system with 4 GB of physical memory (I agree that WXP wastes almost 1 GB of that memory), Ersatz-11 allows me to provide a program running on what looks like a PDP-11 with access to about 1.2 GigaBytes of temporary storage work space. The words are accessed via 4 IOPAGE registers, the third and fourth registers being a 32 bit byte address. The access time is up to ten times the access time to emulated PDP-11 program data within the normal 64KB, but that is MUCH faster than using other methods such as VIRTUAL in FORTRAN, let alone the size limitation with the latter method of 4 MegaBytes. In addition, it is possible to enhance the DLL which is used to access that extra 1.2 GigaBytes and have the DLL perform a substantial portion of the data manipulation. It would be very similar to adding a co-processor to the PDP-11 which I have using in the past to calculate FFTs and other vector quantities. Of course, no one would ever start a new project using Ersatz-11, but for current projects that have a major investment in software, using Ersatz-11 is often a very low cost solution to increased CPU and disk I/O speeds. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jan 31 18:31:49 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 16:31:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 77, Issue 68 In-Reply-To: <362153.20019.qm@web111503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> from William Blair at "Jan 31, 10 10:42:57 am" Message-ID: <201002010031.o110VnHd019028@floodgap.com> > > > http://diephotos.blogspot.com/ > > Thanks. Thousands of people did 99.999% of the job, I just took a > photo of their absolutely beautiful and incredibly useful product. Perhaps I missed it on there, but any higher resolution versions? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- All I ask is a chance to prove money can't make me happy. ------------------ From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 18:30:17 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 22:30:17 -0200 Subject: Classic Epson printer emulators References: Message-ID: <0f2a01caa2d6$7d001960$0101a8c0@Alexandre> > I was amazed that Epson still seem to sell 9 pin and 24 pin dot matrix > printers. Presumably some people still require multi-part carbon forms. > And the printer ribbon vartridge seems to be unchanged from the days of > the MX80, you can still get ribbons for that machine. In Brazil, this is very common, although we are moving for a digital invoice. And it is hellish complicated and expensive, but orders of our nice govnmt. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 18:41:37 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 22:41:37 -0200 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 77, Issue 68 References: <201002010031.o110VnHd019028@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <0f6f01caa2d9$62044390$0101a8c0@Alexandre> >> > > http://diephotos.blogspot.com/ Wow, so nice! What about clickable high resolution photos? :oD From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Jan 31 20:17:25 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 18:17:25 -0800 Subject: Classic Epson printer emulators References: Message-ID: <4B6639B5.42702BFA@cs.ubc.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > > Dave McGuire wrote: > > For bonus points: heat and light make it fade quicker. Leave a > > thermal-print receipt on a windowsill on the 1st of the month and it'll > > be blank by the end of the month. Leave it on or near a radiator and > > it'll go completely black within a few minutes. > > It's not generally realsied that themral printouts fade with time. I was > chatting to somebody from a major museum and he didn't realise the > historically-significant calculator printouts needed to be copied _NOW_. > > > There are also significant chemical compatibility issues. Most notably, > > applying a strip of Sellotape to a thermal-printed slip/receipt causes > > Pehaps I've been lucky,but I've not had any prolems sticking down HP > calculator printouts with 3M 'magic tape' onto a piece of plain paper to > make them easier to copy. I thought the fading issue was quite commonly realised, esp. if you're the type that hangs on to receipts. On the other hand, I have dozens of printouts from high school in 1976, from the printer for a HP9830 computer/calculator, taped to sheets and bound in a folder, all of which are completely legible, very slight fading, except for some corners under 3M tape which have faded completely. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 31 20:38:29 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 18:38:29 -0800 Subject: Classic Epson printer emulators In-Reply-To: <4B6639B5.42702BFA@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <4B6639B5.42702BFA@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4B65CE25.2948.1DDBBFC@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Jan 2010 at 18:17, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I thought the fading issue was quite commonly realised, esp. if you're > the type that hangs on to receipts. On the other hand, I have dozens > of printouts from high school in 1976, from the printer for a HP9830 > computer/calculator, taped to sheets and bound in a folder, all of > which are completely legible, very slight fading, except for some > corners under 3M tape which have faded completely. Or old faxes printed out on thermal fax paper. I've got a few from about 15 years ago (technical reference stuff sent by a considerate manufacturer) that are all but unreadable today. I should have made photocopies, too late now. Another bit of proof that the story of our civilization is written in sand... --Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Jan 31 21:20:10 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 21:20:10 -0600 Subject: Classic Epson printer emulators In-Reply-To: <4B65CE25.2948.1DDBBFC@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B6639B5.42702BFA@cs.ubc.ca> <4B65CE25.2948.1DDBBFC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B66486A.6000709@oldskool.org> On 1/31/2010 8:38 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Or old faxes printed out on thermal fax paper. I've got a few from > about 15 years ago (technical reference stuff sent by a considerate > manufacturer) that are all but unreadable today. I should have made > photocopies, too late now. "all but unreadable" sounds like they are faint and almost discernible. If that's the case, scanning them and then making drastic adjustments to contrast should render them readable. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Jan 31 21:58:50 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 19:58:50 -0800 Subject: Classic Epson printer emulators References: , <4B6639B5.42702BFA@cs.ubc.ca> <4B65CE25.2948.1DDBBFC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B66517B.920D5D78@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 31 Jan 2010 at 18:17, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > I thought the fading issue was quite commonly realised, esp. if you're > > the type that hangs on to receipts. On the other hand, I have dozens > > of printouts from high school in 1976, from the printer for a HP9830 > > computer/calculator, taped to sheets and bound in a folder, all of > > which are completely legible, very slight fading, except for some > > corners under 3M tape which have faded completely. > > Or old faxes printed out on thermal fax paper. I've got a few from > about 15 years ago (technical reference stuff sent by a considerate > manufacturer) that are all but unreadable today. I should have made > photocopies, too late now. > > Another bit of proof that the story of our civilization is written in > sand... I hope my phrasing didn't lead to misinterpretation if read quickly. In the case of my 34 year-old printouts, they are all readily legible. What fading may have occurred is minor. Perhaps the best to be said is there is tremendous variability in the longevity of thermal printouts. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 31 22:13:08 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 20:13:08 -0800 Subject: Classic Epson printer emulators In-Reply-To: <4B66517B.920D5D78@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <4B66517B.920D5D78@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4B65E454.21480.23464AE@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Jan 2010 at 19:58, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Perhaps the best to be said is there is tremendous variability in the > longevity of thermal printouts. How are your old blue-line copies doing? I found a couple in one of my desk drawers and it took quite a bit of time to even figure out what they were, they had faded so much. D size--too big to scan. --Chuck From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Sun Jan 31 11:42:41 2010 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 12:42:41 -0500 Subject: HP Connect Membership for Hobbyist VMS Licence References: <003401caa131$497bf3d0$dc73db70$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <000801caa29c$c9a804b0$6501a8c0@HP24150918428> >From a posting in c.o.v. - DECUServe is now an official Hobbyist Chapter, and DECUServe subscribers now have OpenVMS Hobbyist benefits. DECUServe provides a friendly platform, primarily using the DEC Notes conferencing system, but also providing a full OpenVMS account. If you don't already have an account on DECUServe (aka Encompasserve aka Eisner.DECUS.org) -- registration is free. To register for DECUServe, just Telnet to decuserve.org (or eisner.decus.org), use username REGISTRATION, and follow the simple instructions. We do appreciate it if you supply true information - and we don't share that information. You will need your "DECUServe Number" to request Hobbyist licenses. You are told that number during the DECUServe registration process (please write it down). Or... To check your DECUServe registration details needed to request Hobbyist Licenses, you can just type $ HOBBYIST. DECUServe transmits membership information to the Hobbyist Program twice weekly. If you have recently registered on DECUServe, please allow time for that transfer and for loading into the Hobbyist database. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob Jarratt" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 5:20 PM Subject: HP Connect Membership for Hobbyist VMS Licence >A while back I joined at the most basic membership level of Encompass just > to get access to VMS hobbyist licences as I was not really interested in > any > other benefits. This used to be a free membership. Am I right that now you > need to pay $50 a year to be able to get a hobbyist licence? Is there some > way to avoid this charge? > > Regards > > Rob > From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Sun Jan 31 11:59:41 2010 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 12:59:41 -0500 Subject: Free for pickup References: <990883.74434.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000e01caa29f$29640140$6501a8c0@HP24150918428> Still thinning my vintage stuff.. Go to http://picasaweb.google.com/DanielDSnyder for a look, category is: Old stuff looking for a new home Available is: 1 - Centronics 761 KSR - serial 1 - Centronics 779 - parallel 1 - Centronics 781 - serial? 1 - IBM PS/2 TV - complete 2 - IBM PS/2 model 30-286 1 - IBM PS/2 model 25 B&W 1 - IBM PS/2 model 50 2 - IBM PS/2 model 70 386 & 486 1 - IBM PS/2 model 80 with Kingston 486 1 - IBM PS/2 B&W monitor 2 - IBM PS/2 keyboards Contact me offine. I really do not want to ship this stuff, but I am willing to relay the stuff and at this moment there is no time limit, I am not going to toss the stuff.. Note all items have been stored in my home and have been known to work. I know for a fact the Centronics printers have been in my home for almost 30 years. I need the space, would like to pass the items to someone else to enjoy.. whatever the reason may be, I have narrowed my focus to VAX, Alpha and Integrity based VMS boxes. This is one of the few constants in my career in the last 31 years. Dan Snyder ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Hartman" To: Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 9:00 AM Subject: Re: Free for pickup > Of the items I posted earlier, the following is still available: > > Qty 2 - HP Laserjet IIIP Printers > > Box of Misc Network Adapter cards, ISA mixed 8 and 16 bit. Mostly 16 bit. > All are Novell, Windows 3.x, Windows 95 and Lantastic Compatible. > > I have the following to add: > > 1 ZIP 100 Drive and Power Supply > 1 Ditto Tape Backup Drive (Not sure if it still works due to age of rubber > rollers) > 1 Apple Imagewriter II > > Items are located in Keansburg, NJ 07734 > > Contact me off-list via PM. > > Thanks! > > Al Hartman > > From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Sun Jan 31 12:04:27 2010 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 13:04:27 -0500 Subject: Free for pickup - one more item Message-ID: <000501caa29f$d46418f0$6501a8c0@HP24150918428> One more item as shown in the photos. A NEC 8500 thimble writer with tractor and bin sheet feeder. Spare ribbons and thimbles as well as interface cartridges for serial and parallel ports. From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Sun Jan 31 13:08:34 2010 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 14:08:34 -0500 Subject: More Free stuff References: <990883.74434.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000501caa2a8$c961b670$6501a8c0@HP24150918428> Micro Cornucopia magazines: Issue 1 to 21 inclusive. others up to 1989 Sol Libes' Micro Systems magazines many issues. I could ship these as they are rather thin per issue.. Contact me offline Dan From r.w.grier at worldnet.att.net Sun Jan 31 14:05:31 2010 From: r.w.grier at worldnet.att.net (Robert Grier) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 15:05:31 -0500 Subject: MDS User Message-ID: <201001312005.o0VK5ZD5006163@billY.EZWIND.NET> Hi Joe R. I have a Intellec Series II/III System with a Universal Prom Programmer UPP 103 and I have lost my Eden Engineering Manual for Model EP-710A Ver 2.5 Personality Programming Board, I would like to purchase a copy or If you could scan the few pages so I can set the dip switches for the proper eprom to program on the board. The board uses (2716, 2732, and 2764 Eproms) I'm E-mailing you, because I found you with a web search for Eden Engineering EP-170A which show a list of all your MDS Manuals. If you could help me out, It would be great. Please E-mail me with a cost or what you could do for me. My E-mail r.w.grier at worldnet.att.net Or my Address Robert Grier 36876 Main St. New Balitimore, Mi 48047 Thanks Bob From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sun Jan 31 22:40:33 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 22:40:33 -0600 Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: <7057.99350.qm@web111516.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <7057.99350.qm@web111516.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B665B41.3090801@tx.rr.com> William Blair wrote: >> Tony Duell wrote: >>>> Having learned assembly language programming on the beautifully >>>> simple architecture and instruction set of the 6800, the Byte magazine >>>> article linked to below that I read when it was originally published >>>> really impressed me. In the 6809 they made one of the earliest efforts >>>> I know of to really tweak an already great uP instruction set based upon >>>> an analysis of existing software: >>> I found the 6809 to be by far the nicest 8-bit CPU I ever worked with. >>> The instruction set was simple and very orthogonal, the fact that you had >>> various relative addressing modes meant you could write truely >>> position-independant code, there were 2 stack points, and so on. Unlike >>> certain chips I could name, there were no major misfeatures that I came >>> across. >>> >>> Of course the problem (as we all know) is that it came out too late. By >>> that tine everybody was using the Z80 or 6502. Oh well. >>> >>> It always suprised me that hre BBC micro used the 6502 rather than the >>> 6809. By the time the Beeb was designed, Acorn had made a 6809 processor >>> board for their System machines, so they must have had experience with >>> the chip. THe Beeb is nice, but a Beeb with a 6809 processor would have >>> been something else :-) >>> >>> -tony >>> >> When I moved from the 6800 to the 6809 (in assembly language - *many* >> years ago) I was sort of astounded and at the same time very pleased by >> the way many of the little subroutines I had written for the 6800 became >> one instruction in the 6809. I think it will always be my favorite >> 8-bit CPU. My only annoyance at the time was the fact that there was no >> way for the software to reset the companion UART chip, whose number I've >> completely forgotten by now. 6821 maybe??? >> Later, >> Charlie Carothers > > I was so impressed I even took a photo of it. A photo of the die of an Atmel EF6809CV is a short way down my page here: > > http://diephotos.blogspot.com/ > What a great bunch of IC photos - beautiful! Later, Charlie C. From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sun Jan 31 23:13:19 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 23:13:19 -0600 Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B6662EF.6030100@tx.rr.com> Geoffrey Reed wrote: > > > On 1/30/10 8:09 PM, "CSquared" wrote: > >> Ah yes, 6850 and ACIA, thanks for the memory jog. I had completely >> forgotten both of those. I can't remember now precisely why I felt the >> need to reset the ACIA with a software controlled line, but ISTR I >> *really* needed to occasionally, and a power cycle was the only way. I >> do remember the little system had several of the ACIA's attached to one >> 6809 and I controlled a number of unique hardware devices that way. I >> got to do some 68000 stuff a few years later and liked it quite well >> too, though that was using C - my very first C as a matter of fact, >> along about 1986 or 1987. >> Later, >> Charlie C. > > Hmmm, possibly It is because I am more of a hardware guy anymore than a > software guy, but couldn't you make an adapter pcb for the ACIA chip, that > had a relay and a few other componants on it, like a 555 set as a timer, and > when the 555 is triggered, it would power off your acia for a preset amount > of time by tripping the relay so the VCC pin no longer gets voltage, then at > the end of the timing cycle it returns the relay to normal position and the > acia comes back on and you set baud, etc.... > I'm sure that would have worked. We did something similar a few years ago so the software could reset external (non-plug-in) modems where an I/O line controlled a small relay whose contacts were in series with the low voltage modem power. That worked quite well. Back when I was coping with the ACIA's I was in a working environment where the hardware guys were sometimes not too eager to listen to the software guys input, to be ultra polite about it. :) This was a new board design, and they were not about to respin the board to solve what they probably considered to be a software problem. So, we just sort of lived with it. Once the system was pretty well debugged and tested I think it was not so much of an issue. I really don't recall by now how the ACIA's would get into a state where only a reset could get them unstuck. It's just been way too many years and way too many other projects between then and now, but I do remember it being a bit of a pain. ISTR that particular project was scuttled before it ever made into production, so we never found out whether it would be a problem in the field or not. Later, Charlie C. From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sun Jan 31 23:37:51 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 23:37:51 -0600 Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: <4B65EC26.2040509@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4B65EC26.2040509@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4B6668AF.6080007@tx.rr.com> Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 31/01/2010 19:49, Geoffrey Reed wrote: >> On 1/30/10 8:09 PM, "CSquared" wrote: >> >>> Ah yes, 6850 and ACIA, thanks for the memory jog. I had completely >>> forgotten both of those. I can't remember now precisely why I felt the >>> need to reset the ACIA with a software controlled line, but ISTR I >>> *really* needed to occasionally, and a power cycle was the only way. I >>> do remember the little system had several of the ACIA's attached to one >>> 6809 and I controlled a number of unique hardware devices that way. > >> Hmmm, possibly It is because I am more of a hardware guy anymore than a >> software guy, but couldn't you make an adapter pcb for the ACIA chip, >> that >> had a relay and a few other componants on it, like a 555 set as a >> timer, and >> when the 555 is triggered, it would power off your acia for a preset >> amount >> of time by tripping the relay so the VCC pin no longer gets voltage, >> then at >> the end of the timing cycle it returns the relay to normal position >> and the >> acia comes back on and you set baud, etc.... > > I am really puzzled by this. The ACIA has no hardware reset line, but > it's very easy to send it a master reset command in software. In fact, > you have to do that to clear the hardware reset condition after a power > up, because the ACIA stays in the inactive/reset condition until you > program it. > > Charlie, you weren't using GTE 68C50s, were you? They did have a few > weird bugs. > I'm pretty sure they were Motorola parts. As I told Geoffrey, it has been a very long time - like probably 40 years - and I've forgotten a lot of the details, and just sort of remember the pain. I think the ACIA would somehow get into a state where it would not pay attention to the master reset command. Over the years, because of this and other similar experiences, I sort of developed a philosophy that every peripheral of an embedded controller should have a software controlled reset line that could unconditionally reset the device independent of the state of the device. Without this capability, I don't believe it is possible to create a truly robust system. By robust I mean a system that can continue to run for months with no intervention needed to clear an error condition. Another example of the sort of experience that led to this philosophy are the modems I mentioned to Geoffrey. A reset command to the modem has no effect if the firmware in the modem is off in the weeds somewhere. Later, Charlie C. From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sun Jan 31 23:54:46 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 23:54:46 -0600 Subject: Classic Epson printer emulators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B666CA6.5060906@tx.rr.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> Dave McGuire wrote: >>> Dedicated thermal receipt printers are nice, but from what I've heard >>> they're not as reliable as dot-matrix impact printers in the field. >>> That seems odd to me, but I guess the heating elements dying does make >>> some sense. >> There's one major issue with direct thermal: ink fade. Basically the > > Indeed. Many older (HP) calculators used thermal paper. It'sa good idea > to make photocopies (or I guess scans these days) of any printouts you > want to keep. > > It's not generally realsied that themral printouts fade with time. I was > chatting to somebody from a major museum and he didn't realise the > historically-significant calculator printouts needed to be copied _NOW_. > >> printing fades over time. Some retailers love this, because after about >> 8 months the receipt is basically blank -- "Sir, we'd be happy to accept >> that under the 12-month guarantee, but we need a receipt -- not a blank >> strip of paper." >> >> For bonus points: heat and light make it fade quicker. Leave a >> thermal-print receipt on a windowsill on the 1st of the month and it'll >> be blank by the end of the month. Leave it on or near a radiator and >> it'll go completely black within a few minutes. > > Needless to say a soldering iron works just as well. I've been known to > use one to check if the paper is still thermally sensitive, and to see > which is the sensitive side. > >> There are also significant chemical compatibility issues. Most notably, > > Propan-2-ol will darken most thermal paper, as I fopudn out the hard way > when clening a bit of hardware with said solvent and some othe spray > landed on some printouts from my LogicDart (it uses the HP82440 IR > thermal printer).. > >> applying a strip of Sellotape to a thermal-printed slip/receipt causes > > Pehaps I've been lucky,but I've not had any prolems sticking down HP > calculator printouts with 3M 'magic tape' onto a piece of plain paper to > make them easier to copy. > > [...] > > -tony > > Taping thermal paper printouts down for copying worked fine for me as long as I made the copies immediately, and planned to discard the originals anyway. In my experience it did not take very long for the print under the tape to disappear. ISTR one day was too long the first time I tried it and discovered this issue. Fortunately that printing was something that could be rather easily recreated. I suspect it probably depends on the specific printer and paper too. Also, some thermal printers have a software controlled "intensity" or "energy" setting which changes how much current and/or how long it is applied to the heaters, and I suspect that might affect the durability of the printing as well. Later, Charlie C.