From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 1 00:15:06 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 22:15:06 -0800 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: , <20101201052344.B4CD3A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>, Message-ID: <4CF5776A.17238.1C57FB@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Dec 2010 at 16:59, Nigel Williams wrote: > IBM's early OS/400 operating system for the CISC AS/400 (1988) was > written in mostly PL/MI (Programming Language / Machine Interface), > which via various steps derived from PL/I. Some layers of IO support > was done in Modula-2. Later, for the RISC versions of AS/400 parts of > OS/400 (SLIC) were migrated to C or C++ but much of OS/400 stayed with > PL/MI or Modula-2. -- [ paraphrased from Dan Hicks in > comp.sys.ibm.as400.misc ] Isn't Intel ISIS written in PL/M? I know that there's some early CP/M code written in it. --Chuck From leaknoil at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 00:19:27 2010 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 22:19:27 -0800 Subject: Can you even legally sell stuff with asbestos ? In-Reply-To: References: <20101201052344.B4CD3A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4CF5E8EF.1090002@gmail.com> I trust someone here will know. What is this thing ? http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-MOTHER-BOARD-IBM-Module-Machine-invoice-1963-/300499094216 From starbase89 at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 00:39:50 2010 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 01:39:50 -0500 Subject: Can you even legally sell stuff with asbestos ? In-Reply-To: <4CF5E8EF.1090002@gmail.com> References: <20101201052344.B4CD3A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4CF5E8EF.1090002@gmail.com> Message-ID: Asbestos is no longer produced or used in new application due to health reasons, but owning and buying/selling is perfectly legal. Joe On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 1:19 AM, leaknoil wrote: > I trust someone here will know. What is this thing ? > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-MOTHER-BOARD-IBM-Module-Machine-invoice-1963-/300499094216 > > > -- Joseph Giliberti Jackson, New Jersey Come Volunteer at the InfoAge Science / History Learning Center Get more information at http://www.infoage.org From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Dec 1 00:50:14 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 22:50:14 -0800 Subject: Can you even legally sell stuff with asbestos ? In-Reply-To: <4CF5E8EF.1090002@gmail.com> References: <20101201052344.B4CD3A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4CF5E8EF.1090002@gmail.com> Message-ID: <66ed5b743cb475d68fb81b2318623a37@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Nov 30, at 10:19 PM, leaknoil wrote: > I trust someone here will know. What is this thing ? > > http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-MOTHER-BOARD-IBM-Module-Machine-invoice > -1963-/300499094216 Before my time so to speak, but it's a program plugboard for some accounting machine, perhaps something like the 604 or 607 electronic calculators, or mayhaps the CPC (card-programmed-calculator). Perhaps someone will recognise exactly which machine. I don't know of any asbestos on IBM plug-board wires. Later plug-board wires were typical plastic insulation, however earlier ones were fabric-over-plastic insulation. It's just a woven fabric. Asbestos fibres wouldn't stand up to the flexing. From leaknoil at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 00:53:03 2010 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 22:53:03 -0800 Subject: Can you even legally sell stuff with asbestos ? In-Reply-To: References: <20101201052344.B4CD3A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4CF5E8EF.1090002@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CF5F0CF.1010307@gmail.com> You can actually transfer ownership of stuff containing asbestos ? I figured you if you had it was your business but, selling it to someone else seemed iffy if you knew. This thing is not a risk to anyone but, I was curious what the rules are. Still what is that ? It looks like a programming board of some sort. Love all the IBM logos on y connections or whatever they are. This from a punch card sorter ? On 11/30/2010 10:39 PM, Joe Giliberti wrote: > Asbestos is no longer produced or used in new application due to health > reasons, but owning and buying/selling is perfectly legal. From leaknoil at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 00:55:49 2010 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 22:55:49 -0800 Subject: Can you even legally sell stuff with asbestos ? In-Reply-To: <66ed5b743cb475d68fb81b2318623a37@cs.ubc.ca> References: <20101201052344.B4CD3A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4CF5E8EF.1090002@gmail.com> <66ed5b743cb475d68fb81b2318623a37@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4CF5F175.3040501@gmail.com> On 11/30/2010 10:50 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Before my time so to speak, but it's a program plugboard for some > accounting machine, perhaps something like the 604 or 607 electronic > calculators, or mayhaps the CPC (card-programmed-calculator). Thats what I thought as well. It is telling something what to do. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 1 00:56:50 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 22:56:50 -0800 Subject: Can you even legally sell stuff with asbestos ? In-Reply-To: References: , <4CF5E8EF.1090002@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <4CF58132.3466.428CAE@cclist.sydex.com> A related news item is that as of 2011, New Jersey will not allow sale of items that contain materials banned by the EU RoHS regulations. --Chuck From starbase89 at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 01:02:02 2010 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 02:02:02 -0500 Subject: Can you even legally sell stuff with asbestos ? In-Reply-To: <4CF5F175.3040501@gmail.com> References: <20101201052344.B4CD3A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4CF5E8EF.1090002@gmail.com> <66ed5b743cb475d68fb81b2318623a37@cs.ubc.ca> <4CF5F175.3040501@gmail.com> Message-ID: As long as asbestos is solid in chunks and not airborne, it is not hazardous. On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 1:55 AM, leaknoil wrote: > On 11/30/2010 10:50 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> Before my time so to speak, but it's a program plugboard for some >> accounting machine, perhaps something like the 604 or 607 electronic >> calculators, or mayhaps the CPC (card-programmed-calculator). >> > > Thats what I thought as well. It is telling something what to do. > -- Joseph Giliberti Jackson, New Jersey Come Volunteer at the InfoAge Science / History Learning Center Get more information at http://www.infoage.org From leaknoil at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 01:05:07 2010 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 23:05:07 -0800 Subject: Can you even legally sell stuff with asbestos ? In-Reply-To: <4CF58132.3466.428CAE@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CF5E8EF.1090002@gmail.com>, <4CF58132.3466.428CAE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CF5F3A3.6060309@gmail.com> Will that apply to only new items ? It's too expensive to make two versions of anything. Except stuff out of places "where they just don't care" I think most manufacturers have all gone RoHS long ago. Not sure there how Walmart will continue in New Jersey though. No more $15 dvd players anyway. On 11/30/2010 10:56 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > A related news item is that as of 2011, New Jersey will not allow > sale of items that contain materials banned by the EU RoHS > regulations. From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Dec 1 01:06:29 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 02:06:29 -0500 Subject: Can you even legally sell stuff with asbestos ? References: <20101201052344.B4CD3A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu><4CF5E8EF.1090002@gmail.com><66ed5b743cb475d68fb81b2318623a37@cs.ubc.ca><4CF5F175.3040501@gmail.com> Message-ID: You can sell houses with lead paint, so why not (they just paint over it). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Giliberti" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 2:02 AM Subject: Re: Can you even legally sell stuff with asbestos ? > As long as asbestos is solid in chunks and not airborne, it is not > hazardous. > > On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 1:55 AM, leaknoil wrote: > >> On 11/30/2010 10:50 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> >>> Before my time so to speak, but it's a program plugboard for some >>> accounting machine, perhaps something like the 604 or 607 electronic >>> calculators, or mayhaps the CPC (card-programmed-calculator). >>> >> >> Thats what I thought as well. It is telling something what to do. >> > > > > -- > Joseph Giliberti > Jackson, New Jersey > Come Volunteer at the InfoAge Science / History Learning Center > Get more information at http://www.infoage.org From starbase89 at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 01:07:47 2010 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 02:07:47 -0500 Subject: Can you even legally sell stuff with asbestos ? In-Reply-To: <4CF58132.3466.428CAE@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CF5E8EF.1090002@gmail.com> <4CF58132.3466.428CAE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Does that include antiques, or houses sided in asbestos tile? On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 1:56 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > A related news item is that as of 2011, New Jersey will not allow > sale of items that contain materials banned by the EU RoHS > regulations. > > --Chuck > > -- Joseph Giliberti Jackson, New Jersey Come Volunteer at the InfoAge Science / History Learning Center Get more information at http://www.infoage.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 1 01:08:09 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 23:08:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Can you even legally sell stuff with asbestos ? In-Reply-To: References: <20101201052344.B4CD3A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4CF5E8EF.1090002@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20101130230732.K98427@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 1 Dec 2010, Joe Giliberti wrote: > Asbestos is no longer produced or used in new application due to health > reasons, but owning and buying/selling is perfectly legal. Just don't EVER mention it in a .sig! From jws at jwsss.com Wed Dec 1 00:58:22 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 22:58:22 -0800 Subject: Can you even legally sell stuff with asbestos ? In-Reply-To: References: <20101201052344.B4CD3A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4CF5E8EF.1090002@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CF5F20E.4080408@jwsss.com> I'm not sure what material is asbestos in this plugboard, probably the laminates in the backer board. Unless you saw or break up the material asbestos is not much danger. Most applications where it is present in large quantities will try to contain or seal the material in place rather than removing and disposing of it. If you ran over this thing with a truck, or took out the backer and ran it thru a table or bandsaw you would have a problem. Leave it together and you are probably safe. I am worried about the siding on my house than something like this. All asbestos, and about 1/2 installed by me when I was maybe 10 or 12 (1965 was an innocent time). On 11/30/2010 10:39 PM, Joe Giliberti wrote: > Asbestos is no longer produced or used in new application due to health > reasons, but owning and buying/selling is perfectly legal. > > Joe > > On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 1:19 AM, leaknoil wrote: > >> I trust someone here will know. What is this thing ? >> >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-MOTHER-BOARD-IBM-Module-Machine-invoice-1963-/300499094216 >> >> >> > From leaknoil at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 01:14:06 2010 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 23:14:06 -0800 Subject: Can you even legally sell stuff with asbestos ? In-Reply-To: <20101130230732.K98427@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101201052344.B4CD3A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4CF5E8EF.1090002@gmail.com> <20101130230732.K98427@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CF5F5BE.1000701@gmail.com> On 11/30/2010 11:08 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Just don't EVER mention it in a .sig! > or the fact you are actually a bigot but, qualify everything with "I'm not a bigot but..." From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Dec 1 01:19:04 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 23:19:04 -0800 Subject: Can you even legally sell stuff with asbestos ? In-Reply-To: <4CF5F175.3040501@gmail.com> References: <20101201052344.B4CD3A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4CF5E8EF.1090002@gmail.com> <66ed5b743cb475d68fb81b2318623a37@cs.ubc.ca> <4CF5F175.3040501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3db5e299ae06bd4371e731e39f30aa51@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Nov 30, at 10:55 PM, leaknoil wrote: > On 11/30/2010 10:50 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> Before my time so to speak, but it's a program plugboard for some >> accounting machine, perhaps something like the 604 or 607 electronic >> calculators, or mayhaps the CPC (card-programmed-calculator). > > Thats what I thought as well. It is telling something what to do. Looks like it's for an IBM 402/403 accounting machine. The machine is identified at the bottom of the plugboard 'sections', visible in one of the ebay photos. Or compare: http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/plugboard.html Also: http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/402.html From starbase89 at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 01:24:55 2010 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 02:24:55 -0500 Subject: Can you even legally sell stuff with asbestos ? In-Reply-To: <4CF5F20E.4080408@jwsss.com> References: <20101201052344.B4CD3A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4CF5E8EF.1090002@gmail.com> <4CF5F20E.4080408@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Asbestos housing tile is one of the better house siding materials in my opinion. It is very durable, requires little upkeep, and is damn-near fireproof. Mesothelioma usually sets in 25 years post exposure, so you are probably safe, Jim. On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 1:58 AM, jim s wrote: > I'm not sure what material is asbestos in this plugboard, probably the > laminates in the backer board. > > Unless you saw or break up the material asbestos is not much danger. Most > applications where it is present in large quantities will try to contain or > seal the material in place rather than removing and disposing of it. > > If you ran over this thing with a truck, or took out the backer and ran it > thru a table or bandsaw you would have a problem. Leave it together and you > are probably safe. > > I am worried about the siding on my house than something like this. All > asbestos, and about 1/2 installed by me when I was maybe 10 or 12 (1965 was > an innocent time). > > > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Dec 1 01:29:53 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 23:29:53 -0800 Subject: Can you even legally sell stuff with asbestos ? In-Reply-To: <4CF5F20E.4080408@jwsss.com> References: <20101201052344.B4CD3A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4CF5E8EF.1090002@gmail.com> <4CF5F20E.4080408@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <23635c45650cf1e1739136b35c67a841@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Nov 30, at 10:58 PM, jim s wrote: > I'm not sure what material is asbestos in this plugboard, probably the > laminates in the backer board. The ebay mention is "It has wiring, some is asbestos, most is plastic". As I mentioned in an earlier message, I really think it's just a misunderstanding about fabric-covered wire. I have IBM plugboard wires in both plastic and fabric-covered form. From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Dec 1 01:32:34 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 07:32:34 -0000 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: <20101201015710.29413A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4F060AD832804067AD8BF52B862BFDE1@ANTONIOPC> Dennis Boone [drb at msu.edu] wrote: > Given the RSX heritage, I wouldn't be surprised if some BASIC > code came across. I was actually almost surprised not to > find MODULA, but a bit of googling suggests my memory of a > DEC compiler is erroneous. There was a MODULA-2 compiler but that was from outside DEC. I also think I remember a MODULA-3 compiler from one of the DEC research labs. Either way, I don't remember any Modula code on the source listings CD (I suppose I should just spin it up and check ...) Antonio From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 1 01:34:03 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 23:34:03 -0800 Subject: Can you even legally sell stuff with asbestos ? In-Reply-To: <4CF5F3A3.6060309@gmail.com> References: , <4CF58132.3466.428CAE@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CF5F3A3.6060309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CF589EB.27621.649E7B@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Nov 2010 at 23:05, leaknoil wrote: > Will that apply to only new items ? > > It's too expensive to make two versions of anything. Except stuff out > of places "where they just don't care" I think most manufacturers have > all gone RoHS long ago. Not sure there how Walmart will continue in > New Jersey though. No more $15 dvd players anyway. Well, here's the text of the law: http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/2008/Bills/A3500/3343_R1.PDF The law says "no person", but you'll have to read it closely yourself. This seems only to apply to electronics. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 1 01:37:59 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 23:37:59 -0800 Subject: Can you even legally sell stuff with asbestos ? In-Reply-To: References: , <4CF5F20E.4080408@jwsss.com>, Message-ID: <4CF58AD7.32279.683696@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Dec 2010 at 2:24, Joe Giliberti wrote: > Asbestos housing tile is one of the better house siding materials in > my opinion. It is very durable, requires little upkeep, and is > damn-near fireproof. Mesothelioma usually sets in 25 years post > exposure, so you are probably safe, Jim. Apparently, there's also "asbestos" and then there's "asbestos". Something about fiber length, with the short-fiber variety less dangerous: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1877505/pdf/amjpathol00105 -0042.pdf When I worked in the mills, it was used to line furnaces and the stuff was all over the place. I'm not dead yet. -Chuck From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Dec 1 01:37:48 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 07:37:48 -0000 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <24FB599B69A9438796E9DAECA44CC453@ANTONIOPC> Zane H. Healy [healyzh at aracnet.com] wrote: > Ethan, I'm pretty sure your memory is correct. Something else to > consider is just what does a source CD contain the source for? I've > never seen one. :-( But as I understand it, you have the basic OS, > some of the other components aren't included from what I've heard. There used to be a source kit that delivered source. I believe it was built on demand for those customers who met the necessary requirements (i.e. huge paranoia and a handy bottomless pit of money). What the rest of us had (unless we could SET HOST STAR:: :-)) was a source listings kit, which didn't have any (or much) source, just listings output by the various compilers. Basically the fiche but on CD. You could often mostly go from listings to source with an editor macro or two (iirc there was even one ona DECUS tape somewhere) but you'd occasionally have to massage stuff to cope with macro expansions (and the fact that listings cut off at something like column 132 ...). On top of that some particularly sensitive listings were deliberate omitted. Most of LMF (from V5 onwards) and some parts of LOGINOUT (in V4 at least) were not there (I presume other bits may have been excised too but I never noticed). Antonio From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Dec 1 01:40:18 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 07:40:18 -0000 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ian King [IanK at vulcan.com] wrote: > Yup, it was pretty much all BLISS-32. One of my grad school > profs was one of the people who did so. He actually likes BLISS.... I still like BLISS-32 (even though my day job is C++!). The group I worked in in DEC wrote device drivers (mostly) in BLISS. The result of a drunken challenge one day I assume :-) Antonio From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Dec 1 01:42:54 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 07:42:54 -0000 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Richard [legalize at xmission.com] wrote: > The reason I asked is that over on comp.lang.c++ someone > basically asserted that *all* desktop and server OS software > was written in C, so I was trying to think of other OSes > (whether current or not) that weren't written in C to drive > home the point that LMW is not the entire world. (LMW = > linux, mac, windows) Many, many counter-examples obviously. VAX/VMS started out as almost all MACRO-32 and BLISS-32 plus a bunch of non-native stuff that came in from RSX-11 and ran in compatibility mode (does that count?). Server software makes me think IBM - I bet that much of the original 360 software wasn't in C! Antonio From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 1 01:46:59 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 23:46:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Can you even legally sell stuff with asbestos ? In-Reply-To: <4CF5F5BE.1000701@gmail.com> References: <20101201052344.B4CD3A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4CF5E8EF.1090002@gmail.com> <20101130230732.K98427@shell.lmi.net> <4CF5F5BE.1000701@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20101130234419.R98427@shell.lmi.net> > > Just don't EVER mention it in a .sig! On Tue, 30 Nov 2010, leaknoil wrote: > or the fact you are actually a bigot but, qualify everything with "I'm > not a bigot but..." Am I? I've certainly never said that I'm not, so I'll have to rely on others to guage my bigotry. From leaknoil at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 01:51:00 2010 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 23:51:00 -0800 Subject: Can you even legally sell stuff with asbestos ? In-Reply-To: References: <20101201052344.B4CD3A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4CF5E8EF.1090002@gmail.com> <4CF5F20E.4080408@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4CF5FE64.3090407@gmail.com> Don't get me wrong. I was actually curious about legality having seen tents go up on buildings to remove it. It is obviously not toxic until it gets airborne. Like the RoHS rules they have all sorts specific rules about transfer of things like this. Not like many of us have 1960's era machines but, it made me wonder. I'm not so much worried about getting cancer from it as much as if I could run into legal trouble. On 11/30/2010 11:24 PM, Joe Giliberti wrote: > Asbestos housing tile is one of the better house siding materials in my > opinion. It is very durable, requires little upkeep, and is damn-near > fireproof. Mesothelioma usually sets in 25 years post exposure, so you are > probably safe, Jim. From leaknoil at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 01:52:51 2010 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 23:52:51 -0800 Subject: Can you even legally sell stuff with asbestos ? In-Reply-To: <20101130234419.R98427@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101201052344.B4CD3A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4CF5E8EF.1090002@gmail.com> <20101130230732.K98427@shell.lmi.net> <4CF5F5BE.1000701@gmail.com> <20101130234419.R98427@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CF5FED3.1070004@gmail.com> Keep at it. Eventually you'll win. On 11/30/2010 11:46 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Am I? I've certainly never said that I'm not, so I'll have to rely on > others to guage my bigotry. > > > -- This is my sig _,-%/%| _,-' \//%\ _,-' \%/|% / / ) __,-- /%\ \__/_,-'%(% ; %)% %\%, %\ '--%' From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Dec 1 07:38:35 2010 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 08:38:35 -0500 Subject: "How I saved the Macintosh" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> The title smacks of hyperbole, but still an interesting read from a Macintosh ComputerLand salesman back in the day. >> >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/11/30/charles_eicher_computerland_mac_memoir/ >The author sounds cocky and bitter. That's a very popular tone of those who read and write The Register :-). Remember, they were among the first to identify Itanium as the "Itanic", and have along lineage going all the way back to Charlie Matco. If you earned a Charlie Matco coffee mug, then by definition you knew how things really went down. My favorite Register contributor by far in the past couple years (way post Charlie Matco), is Ted Dziuba. E.g. "Google releases serialization scheme: Pedantic programmers hold love-in". http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07/14/dziuba_google_protocol_buffer/page2.html choice quotes include: * Unfortunately, because of heavy inbreeding within Silicon Valley * engineering teams, the two products, although functionally * similar, are not compatible with one another. * If you want to do it, writing your own RPC layer isn't a herculean * task. I managed to hack something together on top of Tomcat * in a couple of hours. It didn't make me feel as manly as I * hoped it would, so to supplement, I suggest you have two * cigars, a glass of Maker's Mark, no ice, and a copy * of The Godfather trilogy within reach. * The Web 2.0 startup circle, being mostly composed of pretentious * little shits, is likely to adopt protocol buffers as a first-class * data interchange format. And my favorite of all time: * Think of how scalable that shit's gonna be. You'll put a real hurt * on all that imaginary load your system is taking. Then, you get * to go home and fuck the prom queen. Tim. From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Dec 1 07:44:15 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 05:44:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: "How I saved the Macintosh" In-Reply-To: from "Shoppa, Tim" at "Dec 1, 10 08:38:35 am" Message-ID: <201012011344.oB1DiF8r015946@floodgap.com> > My favorite Register contributor by far in the past couple years (way post > Charlie Matco), is Ted Dziuba. Yeah, he really puts the fun in dysfunctional, and occasionally makes a good point :) I do prefer el Reg to most other online tech rags. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If the dictionary misspells a word, how would you know? -- Steven Wright --- From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Dec 1 08:35:49 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 06:35:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: <20101130225024.C3751A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <6E6D44D964A64B9BA6BC8DF4BEF52E12@ANTONIOPC> <20101201000003.E5D88A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Nov 2010, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 7:50 PM -0500 11/30/10, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 7:00 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: >> > For 7.3ish VAX OS source proper (includes RTLs, but no translators or >>> layered products), on VERY casual inspection, it looks like about 3000 >>> files of MACRO, 2900 of Bliss, 1400 of C, 155 of message definitions, 65 >>> of Fortran, 35 of Ada, 20 of command definitions, 10 of PL/1, 10 of >>> Pascal, 5 of Uil, a few DCL. >> >> Sure. I can see that. >> >>> I can't find any COBOL, BASIC, MODULA, CORAL, DIBOL, etc. >> >> In 7.3, I'm sure that's now true. I'm pretty sure I remember some >> COBOL and BASIC back in the 4.x and 5.x days, but I can't promise that >> my memory is 100% correct. > > Ethan, I'm pretty sure your memory is correct. Something else to consider is > just what does a source CD contain the source for? I've never seen one. :-( > But as I understand it, you have the basic OS, some of the other components > aren't included from what I've heard. > Was/is there an x86 version of VMS? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Dec 1 08:49:40 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 06:49:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Can you even legally sell stuff with asbestos ? In-Reply-To: <4CF5F5BE.1000701@gmail.com> References: <20101201052344.B4CD3A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4CF5E8EF.1090002@gmail.com> <20101130230732.K98427@shell.lmi.net> <4CF5F5BE.1000701@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Nov 2010, leaknoil wrote: > On 11/30/2010 11:08 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >> Just don't EVER mention it in a .sig! >> > > or the fact you are actually a bigot but, qualify everything with "I'm not a > bigot but..." Hey leaknoil! Plug it! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 09:17:27 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 10:17:27 -0500 Subject: Can you even legally sell stuff with asbestos ? In-Reply-To: <23635c45650cf1e1739136b35c67a841@cs.ubc.ca> References: <20101201052344.B4CD3A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4CF5E8EF.1090002@gmail.com> <4CF5F20E.4080408@jwsss.com> <23635c45650cf1e1739136b35c67a841@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > The ebay mention is "It has wiring, some is asbestos, most is plastic". As I > mentioned in an earlier message, I really think it's just a misunderstanding > about fabric-covered wire. I have IBM plugboard wires in both plastic and > fabric-covered form. I agree. Asbestos insulated wire is probably the most difficult wire to work with, and in the old days the manufacturers avoided it at all costs unless they had to use it. Stripping the insulation off is a real chore, even in a production environment, as the asbestos chews up all the tooling and leaves everything dull. -- Will From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 1 09:20:10 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 07:20:10 -0800 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: <20101130225024.C3751A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <6E6D44D964A64B9BA6BC8DF4BEF52E12@ANTONIOPC> <20101201000003.E5D88A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: At 6:35 AM -0800 12/1/10, Gene Buckle wrote: >Was/is there an x86 version of VMS? There is an Itanium version of VMS, I believe it pretty much requires you to have HP hardware, and I've not kept up on how much a 1U Itanium box will cost. I'm actually starting to think about emulation of a VAX or Alpha to have access to my VMS systems (yes, I have real hardware, but it costs real money to keep it up and running). There is also FreeVMS, which I'm not sure the status of. http://www.freevms.net/ Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Dec 1 09:30:00 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 07:30:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: <20101130225024.C3751A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <6E6D44D964A64B9BA6BC8DF4BEF52E12@ANTONIOPC> <20101201000003.E5D88A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Dec 2010, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 6:35 AM -0800 12/1/10, Gene Buckle wrote: >> Was/is there an x86 version of VMS? > > There is an Itanium version of VMS, I believe it pretty much requires you to > have HP hardware, and I've not kept up on how much a 1U Itanium box will > cost. I'm actually starting to think about emulation of a VAX or Alpha to > have access to my VMS systems (yes, I have real hardware, but it costs real > money to keep it up and running). > I'd love to have another VAX, but I can't afford to feed it. Emulation would be nice. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From dundas at caltech.edu Wed Dec 1 09:55:29 2010 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 07:55:29 -0800 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 7:42 AM +0000 12/1/10, wrote: >VAX/VMS started out as almost all MACRO-32 and BLISS-32 plus >a bunch of non-native stuff that came in from RSX-11 and ran >in compatibility mode (does that count?). I would have answered the question with BLISS-32 and MACRO (both -32 and -11 were used in V1.x of VMS, IIRC). So depending on the scope of the original question, most utility programs were still in MACRO-11 well into V3? (at least V2; my memory is hazy) of VMS. Regarding source access, I once had access to a magtape with the source files, in source form. Very useful when writing/debugging device drivers and other kernel mode and elevated IPL code. John From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 1 10:01:39 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 08:01:39 -0800 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: <20101130225024.C3751A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <6E6D44D964A64B9BA6BC8DF4BEF52E12@ANTONIOPC> <20101201000003.E5D88A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: At 7:30 AM -0800 12/1/10, Gene Buckle wrote: >I'd love to have another VAX, but I can't afford to feed it. >Emulation would be nice. :) Replacement HW costs are definitely going up. I managed to score a pair of Compaq XP1000's (Alpha 21264 500Mhz & 667Mhz) at the low point in their value. One now has a dead power supply, and last I checked XP1000's go for big bucks (not sure about the PS's). I assume drives are getting harder to find, but I have a large stash. I have several older Alpha's dating back to a DEC3000/300LX. My VAX hardware is a lot sparser, flakier, and my drive options more limited (plus I don't want to run a Q-bus system 24x7 which limits me even more). Still the biggest roadblock on keeping the stuff running is the cost of electricity and cooling. That's what caused me to power down MONK, which had been running for over a decade in one form or another. There are several emulation solutions, I'd recommend looking at SIMH first. I'm thinking of trying it on a Mini-ITX box. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Dec 1 10:10:55 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2010 08:10:55 -0800 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: <20101130203359.U98427@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CF6738F.1030409@brouhaha.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Off the top of my head, the following were all pretty much written in Assembly Language. > [...] > Multics Multics was mostly written in PL/I. Only small portions were in assembly. From trag at io.com Wed Dec 1 10:12:31 2010 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 10:12:31 -0600 (CST) Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5dd68d17a547a214f83689e4d4cd4653.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> > Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 13:59:11 -0800 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > On 30 Nov 2010 at 18:56, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >> - I can design a PCB at home using free tools (Kicad rulez!) - I >> can make boards good enough for fine pitch SMD at home (see my page, >> http://tabalabs.com.br/eletronica/tts/index.htm) and the equipment is >> all made from junk. > > Some very nice work, Alexandre! Yes, it is. How did you drill the holes? The issue that always stops me from taking up toner transfer PCB fabrication is drilling the vias. I calculate that my typical 8" X 10" panel of boards is going to have about 1000 vias on it more or less. Even if I stack several boards, peg them together and drill them all at once, that's an awful lot of fine pitch holes to drill by hand. By the time I contemplate, design, and build some kind of automated hole drilling machine, I'm back to thinking that paying for fabrication is cheaper. Getting mil resolution on a mobile drill head is not a simple task, or so it appears to me. Then if I solved the drilling issue, or just buckled down and did it by hand, plating the through-holes either involves an intricate and slightly dangerous (and more importantly, takes up lots of space) copper electroplating capability or soldering a wire in every via, which is back to vast tedium. Grommets are too large for the vias I usually want and also are so expensive it's generally cheaper just to pay for fabrication. Anyway, solving the drilling and plating issue is what stops me from home PCB fabrication. Jeff Walther From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 10:32:26 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 14:32:26 -0200 Subject: SCSI to IDE References: <5dd68d17a547a214f83689e4d4cd4653.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> Message-ID: <7164D995290547188A262A06CB27A015@portajara> > How did you drill the holes? By hand, with a drill table > The issue that always stops me from taking up toner transfer PCB > fabrication is drilling the vias. I calculate that my typical 8" X 10" > panel of boards is going to have about 1000 vias on it more or less. > Even if I stack several boards, peg them together and drill them all at > once, that's an awful lot of fine pitch holes to drill by hand. - Use via minimization - Try to locate vias in the pins of the components, so you can solder it on top & bottom, connecting both planes - Build a cnc machine and make it drill the board for you - Get the neighborhood's son and tell him you're going to give him a dollar :) :) ;) > By the time I contemplate, design, and build some kind of automated hole > drilling machine, I'm back to thinking that paying for fabrication is > cheaper. Getting mil resolution on a mobile drill head is not a simple > task, or so it appears to me. That is not so hard, it is very common to build machines like this in Brazil. > Then if I solved the drilling issue, or just buckled down and did it by > hand, plating the through-holes either involves an intricate and slightly > dangerous (and more importantly, takes up lots of space) copper > electroplating capability or soldering a wire in every via, which is back > to vast tedium. Grommets are too large for the vias I usually want and > also are so expensive it's generally cheaper just to pay for fabrication. But do you NEED to plate it? > Anyway, solving the drilling and plating issue is what stops me from home > PCB fabrication. I do mostly single-sided boards...but when I need a double-sided, I do and I'm happy with the results :) From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 1 11:01:11 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2010 10:01:11 -0700 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Simon Fryer writes: > On 01/12/2010, Richard wrote: > > > The reason I asked is that over on comp.lang.c++ someone basically > > asserted that *all* desktop and server OS software was written in C, > > so I was trying to think of other OSes (whether current or not) that > > weren't written in C to drive home the point that LMW is not the > > entire world. (LMW = linux, mac, windows) > > I thought that mac was written in Pascal! Actually I pointed that out; the original Finder/System was probably written in Pascal and assembly from what I understand. However, MacOS X is what most people think of as "Mac" these days and that's got a C heritage. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 11:18:43 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2010 12:18:43 -0500 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: <7164D995290547188A262A06CB27A015@portajara> References: <5dd68d17a547a214f83689e4d4cd4653.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> <7164D995290547188A262A06CB27A015@portajara> Message-ID: <4CF68373.8000407@gmail.com> Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > - Use via minimization > - Try to locate vias in the pins of the components, so you can solder it > on top & bottom, connecting both planes > - Build a cnc machine and make it drill the board for you > - Get the neighborhood's son and tell him you're going to give him a > dollar :) :) ;) Or you could do it with a drill press and a variety of jigs. Manufacturing the jigs can get interesting, but it's definitely doable. Peace... Sridhar From paco.linux at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 11:28:18 2010 From: paco.linux at gmail.com (Paco Linux) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 18:28:18 +0100 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: <20101201052344.B4CD3A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20101201052344.B4CD3A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: lisp machine -> lisp POS (perq) -> pascal FLEX (perq) -> modula 2 Xerox dandelion, dorado -> mesa, princops On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 6:23 AM, Dennis Boone wrote: > > The reason I asked is that over on comp.lang.c++ someone basically > > asserted that *all* desktop and server OS software was written in C, so > > I was trying to think of other OSes (whether current or not) that > > weren't written in C to drive home the point that LMW is not the entire > > world. (LMW = linux, mac, windows) > > Various older examples have been posted; I'll add a few: > > PRIMOS was written primarily in FORTRAN, with assembler for the lowest > level stuff. Later, PL/1 derivatives designed for systems work became > the favorites. Later yet, some bits were written in Modula. > > Multics was primarily in PL/1. > > IIRC there was something earlier written in BCPL. > > For current systems, z/VM has substantial amounts of PL/S or its > descendants, which I believe is another PL/1-derived systems language, > and of course assembler. The VM TCP/IP stack was originally written in > Pascal. Ada and Coral 66 (and probably Jovial, $deity help us) are > still being used in the military space. > > Depending on your definitions, things like the Forth in Sun ROMs might > be counted. > > De > -- |_|0|_| |_|_|0| ??? |0|0|0| From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 1 11:33:30 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 09:33:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Dec 2010, Richard wrote: > Actually I pointed that out; the original Finder/System was probably > written in Pascal and assembly from what I understand. I think the source is online for something like System 1. > However, MacOS X is what most people think of as "Mac" these days and > that's got a C heritage. How much is C, and how much is Objective-C? I honestly have no idea, but as it has run on 68k, x86, x64, Sparc, and PA-RISC, I doubt there is little if any Assembly Language in there. Thought for the day. I Love the Mac, and I hate Windows, so why do I prefer to write software for Windows. :-( Zane From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 1 11:40:13 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2010 09:40:13 -0800 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CF6887D.7030802@bitsavers.org> On 12/1/10 9:33 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I think the source is online for something like System 1. > URL? From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 1 11:48:29 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2010 09:48:29 -0800 Subject: System Implementation Languages (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: References: <20101201052344.B4CD3A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4CF68A6D.8010400@bitsavers.org> On 12/1/10 9:28 AM, Paco Linux wrote: >> IIRC there was something earlier written in BCPL. >> Cambridge University TRIPOS and the Alto operating system are in BCPL The classic HP 3000 is in SPL B5000/5500 and others in Extended Algol UCSD Pascal in itself. Smalltalk in itself. The Alto Mesa system in itself DEC SRC Topaz in Modula-2 Plus and on and on From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 1 11:52:00 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2010 10:52:00 -0700 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: <20101201052344.B4CD3A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20101201052344.B4CD3A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: In article <20101201052344.B4CD3A580D3 at yagi.h-net.msu.edu>, Dennis Boone writes: > PRIMOS was written primarily in FORTRAN, [...] Didn't know about that one. > Multics was primarily in PL/1. Nor this one. > IIRC there was something earlier written in BCPL. I'd forgotten that AmigaOS was written in BCPL. > For current systems, z/VM has substantial amounts of PL/S or its > descendants, [...] Didn't know about this one either, mostly because I blissfully remain ignorant of IBM equipment :-) > Depending on your definitions, things like the Forth in Sun ROMs might > be counted. I did mention FORTH. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Dec 1 11:55:56 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 09:55:56 -0800 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: <20101201052344.B4CD3A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 9:52 AM > To: cctalk > Subject: Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? > > > In article <20101201052344.B4CD3A580D3 at yagi.h-net.msu.edu>, > Dennis Boone writes: > > > PRIMOS was written primarily in FORTRAN, [...] > > Didn't know about that one. > > > Multics was primarily in PL/1. > > Nor this one. > > > IIRC there was something earlier written in BCPL. > > I'd forgotten that AmigaOS was written in BCPL. I believe that the Xerox Alto Executive was written in BCPL, as well. -- Ian > > > For current systems, z/VM has substantial amounts of PL/S or its > > descendants, [...] > > Didn't know about this one either, mostly because I blissfully remain > ignorant of IBM equipment :-) > > > Depending on your definitions, things like the Forth in Sun ROMs > might > > be counted. > > I did mention FORTH. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for > download > pipeline/> > > Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 11:55:59 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 12:55:59 -0500 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: <7164D995290547188A262A06CB27A015@portajara> References: <5dd68d17a547a214f83689e4d4cd4653.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> <7164D995290547188A262A06CB27A015@portajara> Message-ID: > ? That is not so hard, it is very common to build machines like this in > Brazil. Second hand Taigs are fairly plentiful and not horribly expensive. They are plenty capable of PC board drillwork, plus you can do all sortf os other fun things with them as well. -- Will From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Dec 1 11:57:51 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 09:57:51 -0800 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 9:34 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? > > > > On Wed, 1 Dec 2010, Richard wrote: > > > Actually I pointed that out; the original Finder/System was probably > > written in Pascal and assembly from what I understand. > > I think the source is online for something like System 1. > > > However, MacOS X is what most people think of as "Mac" these days and > > that's got a C heritage. > > How much is C, and how much is Objective-C? I honestly have no idea, > but as > it has run on 68k, x86, x64, Sparc, and PA-RISC, I doubt there is > little if > any Assembly Language in there. > > Thought for the day. I Love the Mac, and I hate Windows, so why do I > prefer > to write software for Windows. :-( > > Zane > Maybe because you enjoy the rush of triumph over adversity? ;-) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 12:03:37 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 13:03:37 -0500 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: <20101201052344.B4CD3A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 12:52 PM, Richard wrote: >> IIRC there was something earlier written in BCPL. > > I'd forgotten that AmigaOS was written in BCPL. Yeah... its origins are from TRIPOS. I haven't forgotten (and I *still* flee from BPTRs). I think by the 2.x era, the BCPL codebase was replaced by C (but the API remained, and so did the BPTRs). -ethan From spc at conman.org Wed Dec 1 12:12:46 2010 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 13:12:46 -0500 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: <20101201052344.B4CD3A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20101201181246.GA21542@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Richard once stated: > > > IIRC there was something earlier written in BCPL. > > I'd forgotten that AmigaOS was written in BCPL. Actually, only the filesystem portion. Exec was in Assembly, and Inuition was in C. -spc (Who found the AmigaOS to be fun to program under) From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 1 12:14:06 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2010 11:14:06 -0700 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , "Zane H. Healy" writes: > How much [of MacOSX] C, and how much is Objective-C? Since it has a BSD kernel underneath, I'm guessing that all of the OS proper is written in C and that all the Apple stuff on top is written in Objective-Cish. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 1 12:19:31 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2010 10:19:31 -0800 Subject: System Implementation Languages (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: <4CF68A6D.8010400@bitsavers.org> References: , , <4CF68A6D.8010400@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4CF62133.26129.FF69B@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Dec 2010 at 9:48, Al Kossow wrote: > Smalltalk in itself. > > The Alto Mesa system in itself > > DEC SRC Topaz in Modula-2 Plus > > and on and on ...and that's not counting the implementation languages that were written specifically for a platform. CDC Cyber in the 70's went from being almost exclusively assembly with FORTRAN sprinkled in to large sections written in SYMPL (based loosely on Pascal). CDC STAR OS was entirely IMPL (LRLTRAN with inline assembly capabilities and some datatype extensions). --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 12:19:14 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 16:19:14 -0200 Subject: SCSI to IDE References: <5dd68d17a547a214f83689e4d4cd4653.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com><7164D995290547188A262A06CB27A015@portajara> Message-ID: >Second hand Taigs are fairly plentiful and not horribly expensive. In USA they are... ;o( From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 12:26:22 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 13:26:22 -0500 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: References: <5dd68d17a547a214f83689e4d4cd4653.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> <7164D995290547188A262A06CB27A015@portajara> Message-ID: >> Second hand Taigs are fairly plentiful and not horribly expensive. > > ? In USA they are... ;o( USPS ships to all the way to Brazil. -- Will From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 12:34:02 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 16:34:02 -0200 Subject: SCSI to IDE References: <5dd68d17a547a214f83689e4d4cd4653.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com><7164D995290547188A262A06CB27A015@portajara> Message-ID: <7E1AB5BEFB9A48E3B08F071E38B6F36F@portajara> >> Second hand Taigs are fairly plentiful and not horribly expensive. > In USA they are... ;o( >USPS ships to all the way to Brazil. And brazilian customs tax me an arm and a leg. Maybe the left eye too. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 12:48:52 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 13:48:52 -0500 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: <7E1AB5BEFB9A48E3B08F071E38B6F36F@portajara> References: <5dd68d17a547a214f83689e4d4cd4653.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> <7164D995290547188A262A06CB27A015@portajara> <7E1AB5BEFB9A48E3B08F071E38B6F36F@portajara> Message-ID: > ? And brazilian customs tax me an arm and a leg. Maybe the left eye too. What would customs run for a $500 machine tool? -- Will From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 12:58:48 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 13:58:48 -0500 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: <20101201181246.GA21542@brevard.conman.org> References: <20101201052344.B4CD3A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20101201181246.GA21542@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 1:12 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Richard once stated: >> >> > IIRC there was something earlier written in BCPL. >> >> I'd forgotten that AmigaOS was written in BCPL. > > ?Actually, only the filesystem portion. ?Exec was in Assembly, and Inuition > was in C. Essentially, yes, though I'd expand "the filesystem portion" to be the part of the suite commonly called AmigaDOS, including various system utilities which sits on top of Exec (the "kernel", more or less, possibly better described as a "real-time message-passing task manager, similar _in concept_ to Mach) and sort-of next to Intuition (the GUI). The major components of AmigaOS are more intertwined than Linux or UNIX, but the divisions are similar. > ?-spc (Who found the AmigaOS to be fun to program under) I loved programming on the Amiga, but I preferred system programming to application programming (i.e. - not so much Intuition work, but plenty of work on device drivers for disk and network and I/O cards and lots of console-I/O programs in C and MC68K assembly). -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 1 12:59:59 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2010 10:59:59 -0800 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: References: , <7E1AB5BEFB9A48E3B08F071E38B6F36F@portajara>, Message-ID: <4CF62AAF.14581.3504FF@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Dec 2010 at 13:48, William Donzelli wrote: > > ? And brazilian customs tax me an arm and a leg. Maybe the left eye > > too. > > What would customs run for a $500 machine tool? There are also numerous versions of DIY CNC drilling machines using a Dremel as the head with the remainder being homebrew. For example, http://asocoamusement.com/articles/cnc_mill/index2.html --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 13:09:43 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 17:09:43 -0200 Subject: SCSI to IDE References: <5dd68d17a547a214f83689e4d4cd4653.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com><7164D995290547188A262A06CB27A015@portajara><7E1AB5BEFB9A48E3B08F071E38B6F36F@portajara> Message-ID: > And brazilian customs tax me an arm and a leg. Maybe the left eye too. >What would customs run for a $500 machine tool? Assuming the fiscal would understand it is for personal use, and a $500 shipping charge, I'd pay around $600 in taxes, being lucky. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 1 13:13:26 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 11:13:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Dec 2010, Ian King wrote: >> Thought for the day. I Love the Mac, and I hate Windows, so why do I >> prefer >> to write software for Windows. :-( >> >> Zane > > Maybe because you enjoy the rush of triumph over adversity? ;-) No, more a case of the quality of Visual Studio over what I've seen so far in the Apple developent environment. I'm not even sure that Xcode is up to the level that Metrowerks Codewarrior was back in the System 7 days (when I was last actively developing for the Mac). :-( Granted I've just finally started learning to use Xcode, but I've not been blown away by what I've seen. Zane From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 13:13:53 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 14:13:53 -0500 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: <4CF62AAF.14581.3504FF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <7E1AB5BEFB9A48E3B08F071E38B6F36F@portajara> <4CF62AAF.14581.3504FF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > There are also numerous versions of DIY CNC drilling machines using a > Dremel as the head with the remainder being homebrew. Life is not Minecraft - sometimes it is easier/faster/better just to buy the tools we need. Used, good condition Taigs are really not all that much money. -- Will From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 1 13:15:26 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 11:15:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: <4CF6887D.7030802@bitsavers.org> References: <4CF6887D.7030802@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Dec 2010, Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/1/10 9:33 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> I think the source is online for something like System 1. >> > > URL? Weren't you involved in getting something released in the last year or so? I'm pretty sure some kind of classic Mac source from that timeframe was released. I had thought it was the OS, but on thinking about it, it might have been an application. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 1 13:17:29 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 11:17:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Dec 2010, Richard wrote: > > In article , > "Zane H. Healy" writes: > >> How much [of MacOSX] C, and how much is Objective-C? > > Since it has a BSD kernel underneath, I'm guessing that all of the OS > proper is written in C and that all the Apple stuff on top is written > in Objective-Cish. It does not have a BSD kernel underneath. It uses the Mach Microkernel. It has a BSD layer on top of that. Zane From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Dec 1 13:22:32 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 11:22:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Dec 1, 10 11:15:26 am" Message-ID: <201012011922.oB1JMWKE018784@floodgap.com> > Weren't you involved in getting something released in the last year or so? > I'm pretty sure some kind of classic Mac source from that timeframe was > released. I had thought it was the OS, but on thinking about it, it might > have been an application. MacPaint and QuickDraw, IIRC. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Support your local hospital. Play hockey. ---------------------------------- From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 13:24:04 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 14:24:04 -0500 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: References: <5dd68d17a547a214f83689e4d4cd4653.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> <7164D995290547188A262A06CB27A015@portajara> <7E1AB5BEFB9A48E3B08F071E38B6F36F@portajara> Message-ID: > ? Assuming the fiscal would understand it is for personal use, and a $500 > shipping charge, I'd pay around $600 in taxes, being lucky. You could probably ship a small Tiag for a lot less than that - they come apart fairly easily, and most of the pieces would fit in a couple of flat rate boxes. -- Will From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Dec 1 13:25:36 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 11:25:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Dec 1, 10 09:33:30 am" Message-ID: <201012011925.oB1JPaNu017684@floodgap.com> > How much is C, and how much is Objective-C? [ in OS X ] That's kind of a hard question since Objective-C is a strict superset of C, so it could be argued the whole thing is Objective-C. Objective-C would only be used for the Cocoa-based portions in any case, or anything derived from NeXTSTEP. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- A straw vote only shows which way the hot air blows. -- O. Henry ----------- From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 1 13:31:43 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2010 11:31:43 -0800 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: References: , <4CF62AAF.14581.3504FF@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4CF6321F.17892.52104D@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Dec 2010 at 14:13, William Donzelli wrote: > Life is not Minecraft - sometimes it is easier/faster/better just to > buy the tools we need. Used, good condition Taigs are really not all > that much money. Oh, agreed, when it's practical. But if it's arm-and-a-leg as in the case of Alexandre, I recommend seeking alternatives. It may be *much* cheaper to build with the results being "good enough". --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Dec 1 13:19:42 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 11:19:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: References: <5dd68d17a547a214f83689e4d4cd4653.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> <7164D995290547188A262A06CB27A015@portajara> <7E1AB5BEFB9A48E3B08F071E38B6F36F@portajara> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Dec 2010, William Donzelli wrote: >> ? Assuming the fiscal would understand it is for personal use, and a $500 >> shipping charge, I'd pay around $600 in taxes, being lucky. > > You could probably ship a small Tiag for a lot less than that - they > come apart fairly easily, and most of the pieces would fit in a couple > of flat rate boxes. > Will, if my understanding is correct, any item imported to Brazil carries a huge import duty. From what I've been told it was done to "enourage" local innovation. A gent I ran into on IRC was complaining that buying a joystick on eBay would cost him twice its price in import duties. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 13:38:29 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 11:38:29 -0800 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: <20101130225024.C3751A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <6E6D44D964A64B9BA6BC8DF4BEF52E12@ANTONIOPC> <20101201000003.E5D88A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 8:01 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 7:30 AM -0800 12/1/10, Gene Buckle wrote: >> >> I'd love to have another VAX, but I can't afford to feed it. Emulation >> would be nice. :) > > Replacement HW costs are definitely going up. ?I managed to score a pair of > Compaq XP1000's (Alpha 21264 500Mhz & 667Mhz) at the low point in their > value. ?One now has a dead power supply, and last I checked XP1000's go for > big bucks (not sure about the PS's). ?I assume drives are getting harder to > find, but I have a large stash. I have several older Alpha's dating back to > a DEC3000/300LX. ?My VAX hardware is a lot sparser, flakier, and my drive > options more limited (plus I don't want to run a Q-bus system 24x7 which > limits me even more). > > Still the biggest roadblock on keeping the stuff running is the cost of > electricity and cooling. ?That's what caused me to power down MONK, which > had been running for over a decade in one form or another. > > There are several emulation solutions, I'd recommend looking at SIMH first. > ?I'm thinking of trying it on a Mini-ITX box. > > Zane What are people's opinions of Personal Alpha (http://www.stromasys.ch/hardware-virtualization-solutions/charon-axp/download-personalalpha/)? Mark From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Dec 1 13:48:16 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 19:48:16 -0000 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <6D0191EA92D64585B67A058979A697E2@ANTONIOPC> Mark Davidson [mdavidson1963 at gmail.com] wrote: > What are people's opinions of Personal Alpha > (http://www.stromasys.ch/hardware-virtualization-solutions/cha > ron-axp/download-personalalpha/)? (Must be the CHARON people right?) My view is that if it's free for personal use then I'll have to give it a go and put it to one side for the day when I don't have a real Alpha (or N) that still work(s) :-) Thanks for the heads up. Antonio From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 13:57:59 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 11:57:59 -0800 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: <6D0191EA92D64585B67A058979A697E2@ANTONIOPC> References: <6D0191EA92D64585B67A058979A697E2@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 11:48 AM, wrote: > Mark Davidson [mdavidson1963 at gmail.com] wrote: > >> What are people's opinions of Personal Alpha >> (http://www.stromasys.ch/hardware-virtualization-solutions/cha >> ron-axp/download-personalalpha/)? > > (Must be the CHARON people right?) > > My view is that if it's free for personal use then I'll have to > give it a go and put it to one side for the day when I don't have > a real Alpha (or N) that still work(s) :-) > > Thanks for the heads up. > > Antonio Antonio--- Yes, that's the Charon people and it is free for personal use. I use it on my Windows box to run one of my Alpha Hobbyist licenses (the real Alpha hardware is waiting for me to obtain a bigger office). You're welcome. :) Mark From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Dec 1 14:03:58 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 20:03:58 -0000 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8F450AC082984E2997DC2EC92DFC7265@ANTONIOPC> Mark Davidson [mdavidson1963 at gmail.com] wrote: > Yes, that's the Charon people and it is free for personal > use. I use it on my Windows box to run one of my Alpha > Hobbyist licenses (the real Alpha hardware is waiting for me to > obtain a bigger office). > > You're welcome. :) Apparently not: -------------------------- This web page is not found. No web page was found for the web address: ftp://tao:er65tza4 at ftp.stromasys.com/PersonalAlpha-2.0.17.zip More information on this error ----------------------------- sniff :-( From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Wed Dec 1 14:04:40 2010 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2010 14:04:40 -0600 Subject: FS: Multiplan & some books Message-ID: More closet cleaning :) See pics. Prices *include* postage in the USA lower 48 states. Paypal to this email. Will ship internationally at additional actual cost. Microsoft Multiplan for Apple II. Two floppies, manual in binder and clear box. $10 "Beneath Apple DOS", $6 "Apple Pascal - A Self-Study Guide", $6 "Borland Turbo Pascal 4.0, IBM PC version", (650+ pages), $8 http://s1181.photobucket.com/albums/x426/DrCharlesMorris/?action=view¤t=PC010053.jpg thanks Charles From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 14:09:50 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 12:09:50 -0800 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: <8F450AC082984E2997DC2EC92DFC7265@ANTONIOPC> References: <8F450AC082984E2997DC2EC92DFC7265@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 12:03 PM, wrote: > Mark Davidson [mdavidson1963 at gmail.com] wrote: >> Yes, that's the Charon people and it is free for personal >> use. ?I use it on my Windows box to run one of my Alpha >> Hobbyist licenses (the real Alpha hardware is waiting for me to >> obtain a bigger office). >> >> You're welcome. :) > Apparently not: > > -------------------------- > This web page is not found. > > No web page was found for the web address: > ftp://tao:er65tza4 at ftp.stromasys.com/PersonalAlpha-2.0.17.zip Hmm... that used to work because I'm a happy user. I'll drop a note to see what's going on. Mark From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 1 13:16:04 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 19:16:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: <4CF4F2ED.27572.1302E0E@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 30, 10 12:49:49 pm Message-ID: > > On 30 Nov 2010 at 19:44, Tony Duell wrote: > > > It's a darn sight easier to debug something when you know what it > > should be doing and can see what it is doing. The former is much > > easier to determine for a Z80 than many modern processors (where the > > instructions are not necesarily executed one at a time in the order > > you expect). The latter is also much easier to do on a system with > > external program memory where you cvan conenct a logic analyser to the > > ROM address lines. > > Fine--why not just do the job with SSI TTL, or even discrete > transistors, diodes, resistors, etc.? I'm sure your junk box is full > of those and you can devise any sort of programming or lack thereof > that you desire. _Precisely_. I know you were being sarcastic, but actually, that's just my point. For me (And for many people here), this is a hobby. We do it becasue we enjoy it. And that means we get to pick the ways that we enjoy the most. Of course sometimes we have to do things we don't enhoy too much, but, at least for me, I do them becasue I know that's what's eneded to complete the restoration, finish the design, whatever. But If I happen to like soldering a hundred or so 14 and 16 pin DIL chips to a bit of stripboard and connecting them up with roadrunner wire or whatever, then, to be frank, that's my business. Doing so doesn't affect anyone else. If you want to use an ARM microcontrolelr to do much the smae job, well, that's your business. I am certainly not goign to try to stop you. You knwo, I can think of dozens of hobbies that I have no interest in. But this doens;t mean I think the people who enjoy them are in any way wrong. All I ask is that they let me get on with tinkering with old computers. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 1 13:19:27 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 19:19:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Best use of a PDP-11/45 *EVER* In-Reply-To: <4CF564DD.5030001@machineroom.info> from "James Wilson" at Nov 30, 10 08:55:57 pm Message-ID: > > What is a TRAM in this context? (I can think of 2 meanings of the term, > > the obvious one associated iwht public transport, and the less common one > > associated with a certain microcprocessor, but I can't think either are > > applicable here). > > > Texture RAM. Generally in some form of pluggable memory module on the > graphics card. > Thanks... I couldn't see how the meaning I normally give to TRAM [1] could possibly be correct. [1] TRAnsputer Module, of course. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 1 14:08:53 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 20:08:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: <20101130203359.U98427@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 30, 10 08:38:07 pm Message-ID: > > On Tue, 30 Nov 2010, Richard wrote: > > asserted that *all* desktop and server OS software was written in C, > > so I was trying to think of other OSes (whether current or not) that > > weren't written in C to drive home the point that LMW is not the > > entire world. (LMW = linux, mac, windows) > > Howzbout: > CP/M > MS-DOS > Amiga-OS > Apple Lisa (Pascal?) > How much of the Lisa Pascal code was still in it when the first Mac OS > came out? > Why did Windoze use a Pascal calling protocol for its functions? Looking around me : POS (PERQ OS), wirtten in Pascal (of course). PNX (PERQ unix) was not suprisingly written in C, though LS-DOS/LDOS (TRS-80 OSes, written in Z80 assembler) OS-8 OS/9 (8 bit version on the CoCo. I assume that wasn't written in C. It doesn't seem to have been). And doubtless many more... Actually, What is an OS? Do the BASIC interpretters with buit-in keyboasrd, video display and mass-storage handling count as OSes? I could certainly argue they are... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 1 13:34:30 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 19:34:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: <0aa101cb90d1$4b749fd0$136d76bb@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Nov 30, 10 06:56:45 pm Message-ID: > > > Tony, you live in the seventies ;oD > > > You know as well as I do that the cost of the chip is not the major cost > > for a 1-off (or small run) project like this. > > No, but the sum of all chips maybe are :) OK, I meant the total compoent cost. If that was the primary design criterion in all cases, we would have many fewer embedded PCs, for example. > > > You might well have Z80s, EPORms, RAMs, etc in the junk box (I certainly > > do), but not the latest microcontroller > > I have many microcontrollers in my junk box, and it doesn't need to be > the latest. > > > You may well feel it's a lot easier to solder up a handful of DIL > > packages on stripboard than a fine-pitch SMD packge that requires you you > > to design a PCB first . This in turn may entail obtianign suitable CAD > > tools, something to run them on, and finding a PCB manufacturer (or > > buying the equipoment to do it at home). > > :oO > > - There are microcontrollers powerful enough for this task, and they are > all DIP I do not dispute htat. My main comment was to the poster who suggested an ARM-based microocntroller (I have never seen seen such a device in a DIL package) > - I can design a PCB at home using free tools (Kicad rulez!) For the nth time, the machien it runs on (and I susepct the OS it runs under) are not free. > - I can make boards good enough for fine pitch SMD at home (see my page, > http://tabalabs.com.br/eletronica/tts/index.htm) and the equipment is all > made from junk. Excellent (I am not being sarcastic). Hwoever, building that equipment is a project in itself (albeit an interesting one). If you just want to make up a SCSI-drive rpelacement or whatever, why should you _have_ to make the PCB stuff first? > > Maybe it is time for you to update your prototype methods :) Why? As I said in anotehr message, thsi is a hobby, why shouldn't I do it the way I enjoy? > > > You may well know the assmbly language for the Z80, and have the > > assembler, etc. Not so fo rthe microcotnroller. > > I know the asm for the Atmel microcontrollers. Also, I have the original Fine. I was ismpoly pointing out that there are people who ar expeerienced in (say) Z80 assemblet and not AVR. In which case, for a hobby project, why not use the former? > (and free) assembler from Atmel. BTW, the programmer is also cheap, 5 > resistors on your parallel port can do the task. BTW, there are lots of > compilers for atmel microcontrollers, and they run on windows, DOS and even > linux. Since they are portable, I can do development on my Octane (Irix) or > in my PA9000. (still OS-Less) Looking around, I don;t think I can see _one_ machine here that could be used for that. You mention a programmer conissiting of a few resistors ona a parellel port. I've got pletny of GPIB ports here, but I guess that's not what you meant. OK, what about an HP9817 with an HP98522 GPIO card? It probably could program an Atmel processor, but I'll bet the software doesn't exist... > > > It's a darn sight easier to debug something when you know what it should > > be doing and can see what it is doing. The former is much easier to > > determine for a Z80 than many modern processors (where the instructions > > are not necesarily executed one at a time in the order you expect). The > > latter is also much easier to do on a system with external program memory > > where you cvan conenct a logic analyser to the ROM address lines. > > In modern processors I can use cheap debug tools (which are CHEAP, look > for the price of the AVR Dragon which is an excellent USB programmer and > debugger via 1-wire. Ah, cheaper than my cheap logic analyser). And I can OK, so firtly you have to buy this tool [1] and secondly I need a USB host to control it. [1] You could claim I need to buy the logic analyser too. But a logic analyser is a much more general purpose device, useful for many things. > use (free) simulators to see the code running on my screen. I'd much rather know what my hardware is actually doing than what some simulator things it's doing. The fewer uncertainties the better! > > > If you want a design to last as long as the classic computer it's > > connected to, I would certainly go with the Z80 + memory solution. Z80s > > are very common. The microcontroller may be common _now_, but whata bout > > next year. There are som many fariants with different memory sizes, > > internal peripherals, etc that several times I've needed to find a > > replacement for something made a few years ago onlky to find that that > > particualr chip is rarere than hen's teeth. Oh, there are 'improved > > versions', but they are not drop-in replacements. > > Tell me a microcontroller that was common yesterday and isn't today. 6303 in one of its many varieants? 7811? COP400? 3870? Do I have to list any more? > > I also feel that this idea of always making everything as cheap as > > possible is a big mistake. It seems to lead to poorly made products with > > all sorts of corners cut. As I have said many times before, I can think > > of plentyy of examples where the cost to do it properly would add perhaps > > \pounds 1.00 od xomponents. Say that translates into \pounds 10.00 by the > > time you've added in all the otehr costs. That increase in selling price > > would not have stopped me buying the product. But when I see how many > > corners havec been cut, I am not goign to be happy, I am not going to buy > > any more products from that company, I am goign to tell my friends to > > look elsewhere too. > > Of course, as fewer devices on board, lesser problems of design, > manufacture and repair I'll have. I'd prefer to use an internal program Actually I disagree with that. It's often easier to repari something with lots of parts, where yoy only have to replace the one bit that's failed. Which would you rather have to fix? An HP9830 (lots of TTL), a Sinclear Spectrum (custom ULA) or a modern PC motherboard. -tony From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Dec 1 14:42:55 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 12:42:55 -0800 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Zane H. Healy Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 9:34 AM > On Wed, 1 Dec 2010, Richard wrote: >> Actually I pointed that out; the original Finder/System was probably >> written in Pascal and assembly from what I understand. Not "probably", definitely. Objective Pascal, if I remember the name correctly. Sat in on a Mac programming class at Stanford given by Andy Hertzfeld. Only the Toolbox was (very highly bummed) 68K assembler. > I think the source is online for something like System 1. >> However, MacOS X is what most people think of as "Mac" these days and >> that's got a C heritage. > How much is C, and how much is Objective-C? I honestly have no idea, but as > it has run on 68k, x86, x64, Sparc, and PA-RISC, I doubt there is little if > any Assembly Language in there. ???? Oh, you're collapsing NeXTstep and Mac OS X, aren't you? The latter only runs on PowerPC and x64, as far as I know. According to the book _Mac OS X Internals: A Systems Approach_ by Amit Singh, there is some very low level assembler code on the PowerPC. I don't know what might have been done about that on x64. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Dec 1 14:45:07 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 12:45:07 -0800 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: <20101130203359.U98427@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101130203359.U98427@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: From: Fred Cisin Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 8:38 PM > Apple Lisa (Pascal?) > How much of the Lisa Pascal code was still in it when the first Mac OS > came out? I don't believe that Mac OS shared any code with the Lisa. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Dec 1 15:24:43 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 16:24:43 -0500 Subject: Shipping to Brazil (was SCSI to IDE) References: Message-ID: <6D4B398BD50D4929B7E9209361668E06@vl420mt> Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2010 11:31:43 -0800 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: SCSI to IDE On 1 Dec 2010 at 14:13, William Donzelli wrote: > Life is not Minecraft - sometimes it is easier/faster/better just to > buy the tools we need. Used, good condition Taigs are really not all > that much money. Oh, agreed, when it's practical. But if it's arm-and-a-leg as in the case of Alexandre, I recommend seeking alternatives. It may be *much* cheaper to build with the results being "good enough". --Chuck +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Alexandre's right. My girlfriend is from Brazil, and as it happens her son wanted a small CNC mill; he decided on a nice little kit from California, but even for a relatively small package like that the shipping and duty would have tripled the price, so we had it shipped up here to Toronto and she took it down in her luggage on her next trip down, along with a Sony laptop for her daughter also for less than half price. Around $3000 saved just on those two items. I don't know if the high duties encourage local industry, but it sure looks like they foster imagination and creativity in making do with what's available locally; hard for us to imagine up here where stuff is so cheap. m From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Dec 1 15:35:58 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2010 15:35:58 -0600 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: <20101201052344.B4CD3A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <201012012136.oB1LaeO0070152@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 11:52 AM 12/1/2010, Richard wrote: >I'd forgotten that AmigaOS was written in BCPL. No, minimal parts of the low-level AmigaDOS 1.x was in BCPL, as based on Tim King's Tripos. The rest was in C. AmigaDOS 2.x replaced the BCPL with C and assembler. - John From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 1 15:45:07 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 13:45:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: <20101130225024.C3751A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <6E6D44D964A64B9BA6BC8DF4BEF52E12@ANTONIOPC> <20101201000003.E5D88A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Dec 2010, Mark Davidson wrote: > What are people's opinions of Personal Alpha > (http://www.stromasys.ch/hardware-virtualization-solutions/charon-axp/download-personalalpha/)? I have two major issues with it. One is it requires Windows, the other is that it is restricted to 128MB of RAM. I honestly can't survive on an Alpha with so little RAM. I could sqeeze into about 256MB, but realistically I need 512MB or more. I forget if my current system has 2GB or 4GB. I'd also be concerned about disk limitations, but could survive with those. The RAM really is the big one, since that is the realistic minimum for OpenVMS 7.2 if you're running DECwindows. DEC claimed you could do with 64MB, and based on my experience I disagree. I think I could better survive in the limitations imposed by SIMH (namely that it's a VAX emulator). Sadly work seems to have stopped on the following: http://www.es40.org/Homepage as the main developer is now working on a commercial emulator. However, they offer what looks like it might be a better alternative to Personal Alpha. http://www.migrationspecialties.com/FreeAXP.html I also need to look into their AvantiFlex option, as it looks like I might actually do what I need, at a price I can almost afford. The problem being I'm not sure if there is an annual fee. But a base price of $500 + $50 for adding 512MB RAM makes it interesting. Sadly it still requires Windows. :-( Zane From als at thangorodrim.de Wed Dec 1 15:41:22 2010 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 22:41:22 +0100 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101201214120.GA10721@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Wed, Dec 01, 2010 at 11:17:29AM -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > On Wed, 1 Dec 2010, Richard wrote: > > > > >In article , > > "Zane H. Healy" writes: > > > >>How much [of MacOSX] C, and how much is Objective-C? > > > >Since it has a BSD kernel underneath, I'm guessing that all of the OS > >proper is written in C and that all the Apple stuff on top is written > >in Objective-Cish. > > It does not have a BSD kernel underneath. It uses the Mach > Microkernel. It has a BSD layer on top of that. Which causes all kinds of "fun" for developers whose code has to be aware of system details like signal handling. I remember the SBCL folks doing some cursing about it ;-) Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From als at thangorodrim.de Wed Dec 1 15:54:19 2010 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 22:54:19 +0100 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: References: <5dd68d17a547a214f83689e4d4cd4653.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> <7164D995290547188A262A06CB27A015@portajara> <7E1AB5BEFB9A48E3B08F071E38B6F36F@portajara> Message-ID: <20101201215419.GC10721@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Wed, Dec 01, 2010 at 11:19:42AM -0800, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Wed, 1 Dec 2010, William Donzelli wrote: > > >>? Assuming the fiscal would understand it is for personal use, and a $500 > >>shipping charge, I'd pay around $600 in taxes, being lucky. > > > >You could probably ship a small Tiag for a lot less than that - they > >come apart fairly easily, and most of the pieces would fit in a couple > >of flat rate boxes. > > > Will, if my understanding is correct, any item imported to Brazil > carries a huge import duty. From what I've been told it was done to > "enourage" local innovation. A gent I ran into on IRC was > complaining that buying a joystick on eBay would cost him twice its > price in import duties. Yep, that is what I heard from my brazilian coworkers as well. Importing anything into Brazil is a very expensive undertaking due to very high customs duties. And on top of that there are other limitations as well, sharply curtailing the amount of stuff a young company for instance can import[0]. Kind regards, Alex. [0] Which was done to stop a common business model: 1) import lots of stuff with the customs duties to be paid later 2) sell the stuff locally with a good profit 3) fold the company before the customs folks come pounding at the door wanting their money. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From als at thangorodrim.de Wed Dec 1 15:46:12 2010 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 22:46:12 +0100 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: <20101201052344.B4CD3A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20101201214611.GB10721@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Wed, Dec 01, 2010 at 01:03:37PM -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 12:52 PM, Richard wrote: > >> IIRC there was something earlier written in BCPL. > > > > I'd forgotten that AmigaOS was written in BCPL. > > Yeah... its origins are from TRIPOS. I haven't forgotten (and I > *still* flee from BPTRs). Apparently TRIPOS is still very much alive in a strangely mutated form. There used to be some kind of appliance like computer system for insurance agents in the UK. It originally ran on 68k CPUs with native TRIPOS and nowadays seems to run in some kind of 68K emulation environment on Linux (with presumably standard x86 hardware), complete with callouts to the underlying Linux OS for things like tape handling (backups). It looks like it is still use quite heavily in this form by insurance agents in the UK. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 16:00:44 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 20:00:44 -0200 Subject: SCSI to IDE References: Message-ID: > I do not dispute htat. My main comment was to the poster who suggested an > ARM-based microocntroller (I have never seen seen such a device in a DIL > package) There are always SMD to DIP adapters :) >> - I can design a PCB at home using free tools (Kicad rulez!) > For the nth time, the machien it runs on (and I susepct the OS it runs > under) are not free. A Pentium III - which you can find in trashcans - runs it with linux. And linux is free :) > Excellent (I am not being sarcastic). Hwoever, building that equipment is > a project in itself (albeit an interesting one). If you just want to make > up a SCSI-drive rpelacement or whatever, why should you _have_ to make > the PCB stuff first? I can always use perfoboard...or just connect the wires chip-to-chip. > Why? As I said in anotehr message, thsi is a hobby, why shouldn't I do it > the way I enjoy? You can do in any way you want :) But when I do and for people being able to reproduce it, I try to do it in the easiest way to most hobbists to reproduce it. :) > Fine. I was ismpoly pointing out that there are people who ar > expeerienced in (say) Z80 assemblet and not AVR. In which case, for a > hobby project, why not use the former? No problem. But why not use the later, since it is more powerful, has more built-in things and is easier to program (not everyone has an eprom programmer, emulator, eraser, etc) for most hobbysts > Looking around, I don;t think I can see _one_ machine here that could be > used for that. You mention a programmer conissiting of a few resistors You don't have ONE PC on your home? > ona a parellel port. I've got pletny of GPIB ports here, but I guess > that's not what you meant. OK, what about an HP9817 with an HP98522 GPIO > card? It probably could program an Atmel processor, but I'll bet the > software doesn't exist... The nice thing of open standards is that you can always roll your own :) > OK, so firtly you have to buy this tool [1] and secondly I need a USB > host to control it. Ah, come on Tony, P3 are throwaway itens...P4 are cheap as candy. A nice post "I need a P4"will bring 3 or 4 to your door. For free. Why not use new technology? Linux drives that, you don't need to use windows. And if you get a PC with ORIGINAL windows installed, you can have it for free. > I'd much rather know what my hardware is actually doing than what some > simulator things it's doing. The fewer uncertainties the better! I programmed a nice debugging monitor for the AVR, so I can see everything is going on :) I used that before having the hardware debugger > 6303 in one of its many varieants? 7811? COP400? 3870? Do I have to list > any more? Was ist common?? When? > Actually I disagree with that. It's often easier to repari something with > lots of parts, where yoy only have to replace the one bit that's failed. > Which would you rather have to fix? An HP9830 (lots of TTL), a Sinclear > Spectrum (custom ULA) or a modern PC motherboard. I can repair the three :) I can even recreate the speccy ULA in CPLD :) From doc at vaxen.net Wed Dec 1 16:01:48 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2010 16:01:48 -0600 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: <20101130225024.C3751A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <6E6D44D964A64B9BA6BC8DF4BEF52E12@ANTONIOPC> <20101201000003.E5D88A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4CF6C5CC.3050504@vaxen.net> If you'd rather run on lower-power hardware, I'm about to test and sell an AlphaStation 500/500, a PWS500, and an LX164 board. I don't remember how much RAM the PWS has, but the other 2 have 384MB each. Also, somebody here in Texas was interested in the rackmount AS2100. I can't find that email, so if you still want it, I've dug it out. Let me know off-list when you can come get it. :) Why, you ask, am I ditching all my cool AXP gear? My rx2600 (2x 1.5GHz ia64, 10GB RAM, SAS3080 SATA) takes care of all my VMS needs these days.... Doc On 12/1/10 3:45 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > On Wed, 1 Dec 2010, Mark Davidson wrote: > >> What are people's opinions of Personal Alpha >> (http://www.stromasys.ch/hardware-virtualization-solutions/charon-axp/download-personalalpha/)? >> > > I have two major issues with it. One is it requires Windows, the other is > that it is restricted to 128MB of RAM. I honestly can't survive on an Alpha > with so little RAM. I could sqeeze into about 256MB, but realistically I > need 512MB or more. I forget if my current system has 2GB or 4GB. I'd also > be concerned about disk limitations, but could survive with those. The RAM > really is the big one, since that is the realistic minimum for OpenVMS 7.2 > if you're running DECwindows. DEC claimed you could do with 64MB, and based > on my experience I disagree. > > I think I could better survive in the limitations imposed by SIMH (namely > that it's a VAX emulator). > > Sadly work seems to have stopped on the following: > http://www.es40.org/Homepage as the main developer is now working on a > commercial emulator. However, they offer what looks like it might be a > better alternative to Personal Alpha. > http://www.migrationspecialties.com/FreeAXP.html > I also need to look into their AvantiFlex option, as it looks like I might > actually do what I need, at a price I can almost afford. The problem being > I'm not sure if there is an annual fee. But a base price of $500 + $50 for > adding 512MB RAM makes it interesting. Sadly it still requires Windows. :-( > > Zane > > From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 1 16:03:53 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2010 15:03:53 -0700 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , "Zane H. Healy" writes: > On Wed, 1 Dec 2010, Richard wrote: > > > Since it has a BSD kernel underneath, I'm guessing that all of the OS > > proper is written in C and that all the Apple stuff on top is written > > in Objective-Cish. > > It does not have a BSD kernel underneath. It uses the Mach Microkernel. > It has a BSD layer on top of that. Sorry, my mistake. I knew there was BSD in there somewhere. Still, I doubt the Mach stuff is written in Objective-C, although I believe it originally came from NeXT, so who knows. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 16:04:13 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 20:04:13 -0200 Subject: SCSI to IDE References: <5dd68d17a547a214f83689e4d4cd4653.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com><7164D995290547188A262A06CB27A015@portajara><7E1AB5BEFB9A48E3B08F071E38B6F36F@portajara> <20101201215419.GC10721@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <5BB611203EB74C49BF95E5942C3CB849@portajara> > Yep, that is what I heard from my brazilian coworkers as well. Importing > anything into Brazil is a very expensive undertaking due to very high > customs duties. And on top of that there are other limitations as well, > sharply curtailing the amount of stuff a young company for instance can > import[0]. Look here http://websro.correios.com.br/sro_bin/txect01$.QueryList?P_LINGUA=001&P_TIPO=001&P_COD_UNI=EG533592565US This is a HP16500A to C upgrade kit a nice chap from this list kindly helped me to aquire and shipped to me in Brazil. It was stopped by the customs, and they want to charge hefty charges for it. When you see "emissao de DSI" it means they think the item costs more than $500 and has to be imported by other means, paying lots of money. I sent the docs to them explaining what it is and how much it costed, and I'm waiting for them to clear the packet and tell me how much will it be. But I already know it will be a hell of money. Brazil. From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Dec 1 16:07:45 2010 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2010 17:07:45 -0500 Subject: System Implementation Languages (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: <4CF68A6D.8010400@bitsavers.org> (sfid-20101201_125157_299856_16D1DFED) References: <20101201052344.B4CD3A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4CF68A6D.8010400@bitsavers.org> (sfid-20101201_125157_299856_16D1DFED) Message-ID: <4CF6C731.8090403@heeltoe.com> Al Kossow wrote: > > B5000/5500 and others in Extended Algol Has any of the system software in Algol ever surfaced? I always enjoyed using big B5* and B6* machines (I used to "borrow" time on one at UDEL :-) -brad From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 1 16:10:53 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 14:10:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Dec 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > POS (PERQ OS), wirtten in Pascal (of course). PNX (PERQ unix) was not > suprisingly written in C, though Just how many "POS" OS's where there? I wasn't aware of this one, but knew about P/OS (stripped RSX-11 for the DEC Professional), and pOS for the Amiga in the late 90's. > Actually, What is an OS? Do the BASIC interpretters with buit-in > keyboasrd, video display and mass-storage handling count as OSes? I could > certainly argue they are... I would definitely argue that BASIC in my Commodore 8-bit systems is an OS! Zane From doc at vaxen.net Wed Dec 1 16:13:06 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2010 16:13:06 -0600 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: <4CF6C5CC.3050504@vaxen.net> References: <20101130225024.C3751A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <6E6D44D964A64B9BA6BC8DF4BEF52E12@ANTONIOPC> <20101201000003.E5D88A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4CF6C5CC.3050504@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4CF6C872.2060302@vaxen.net> On 12/1/10 4:01 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: > If you'd rather run on lower-power hardware, I'm about to test and sell > an AlphaStation 500/500, a PWS500, and an LX164 board. I don't remember > how much RAM the PWS has, but the other 2 have 384MB each. > > Also, somebody here in Texas was interested in the rackmount AS2100. I > can't find that email, so if you still want it, I've dug it out. Let me > know off-list when you can come get it. :) > > Why, you ask, am I ditching all my cool AXP gear? My rx2600 (2x 1.5GHz > ia64, 10GB RAM, SAS3080 SATA) takes care of all my VMS needs these days.... > Urk! Sorry about the top post! Doc From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 1 16:17:53 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 14:17:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: <4CF6738F.1030409@brouhaha.com> References: <20101130203359.U98427@shell.lmi.net> <4CF6738F.1030409@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20101201140346.S26310@shell.lmi.net> "A REAL programmer can write a FORTRAN program in any language." Assembly language is necessary if one is to get full optimization of performance. Many people don't agree with that, and insist that throwing more hardware at it is easier, particularly for people in a big hurry. ("The hardware is done. Now you can start writing the OS. You have 6 weeks") "Nobody programs in assembly language any more, nor ever will again" - Clancy and Harvey PL/1 was once the language of choice for systems programming. C became the language of choice for systems programming. But "language of choice" was rarely an edict, and there are many reasons why many products were written in languages other than the current "language of choice". Personal preference greater familiarity with something else best fit to the hardware tool availability reuse of some old code overly-specific specs "Baby duck syndrome" I have heard numerous (and, of course, conflicting) accounts of WHY Pascal was chosen for the Lisa. I have even heard multiple (conflicting) accounts of how much the Mac was based on the Lisa. Some day, I might even learn to not believe everything that I hear. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 1 16:19:35 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 14:19:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Dec 2010, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Zane H. Healy >> How much is C, and how much is Objective-C? I honestly have no idea, but as >> it has run on 68k, x86, x64, Sparc, and PA-RISC, I doubt there is little if >> any Assembly Language in there. > > ???? Oh, you're collapsing NeXTstep and Mac OS X, aren't you? The latter > only runs on PowerPC and x64, as far as I know. > > According to the book _Mac OS X Internals: A Systems Approach_ by Amit Singh, > there is some very low level assembler code on the PowerPC. I don't know > what might have been done about that on x64. NeXTSTEP, OPENSTEP, Rhapsody, and Mac OS X are all the same OS as far as I'm concerned. I still laugh at the claims Apple ported "Mac OS X" to Intel. The initial versions shipped to Apple developers didn't run on PPC, they ran on Intel CPU's. Are we supposed to believe that Apple was foolish enough to not develop Intel and PPC versions side by side as an insurance policy? The NeXTSTEP origins are still very visable under the hood of Mac OS X. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 1 16:21:13 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 14:21:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: <20101201214120.GA10721@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <20101201214120.GA10721@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Dec 2010, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > On Wed, Dec 01, 2010 at 11:17:29AM -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> It does not have a BSD kernel underneath. It uses the Mach >> Microkernel. It has a BSD layer on top of that. > > Which causes all kinds of "fun" for developers whose code has to be > aware of system details like signal handling. I remember the SBCL folks > doing some cursing about it ;-) It also hurts performance based on tests I've seen in the past. Zane From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 1 16:26:00 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 14:26:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101201141935.Q26310@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 1 Dec 2010, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Just how many "POS" OS's where there? It depends on your specific usage of the "POS" acronym. Many people insist that Windoze is the biggest POS. > > Actually, What is an OS? Do the BASIC interpretters with buit-in > > keyboasrd, video display and mass-storage handling count as OSes? I could > > certainly argue they are... > I would definitely argue that BASIC in my Commodore 8-bit systems is an OS! . . . and certainly any of the Microsoft Stand-Alone BASIC, such as Coco, NEC-DOS, etc. (which Patterson gave credit to as the inspiration for the MS-DOS FAT), Did Apple ever talk about WHY Mac went with a similar linked list of pointers? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 1 16:31:07 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2010 14:31:07 -0800 Subject: System Implementation Languages (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: <4CF6C731.8090403@heeltoe.com> References: <20101201052344.B4CD3A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4CF68A6D.8010400@bitsavers.org> (sfid-20101201_125157_299856_16D1DFED) <4CF6C731.8090403@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <4CF6CCAB.1010005@bitsavers.org> On 12/1/10 2:07 PM, Brad Parker wrote: > Al Kossow wrote: >> >> B5000/5500 and others in Extended Algol > Has any of the system software in Algol ever surfaced? > I have paper listings for the B5500 timeshared MCP scanned Hopefully, we'll have some money in the budget next year to have John read the 7 track tapes. From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Dec 1 16:45:25 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 14:45:25 -0800 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: <20101201140346.S26310@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101130203359.U98427@shell.lmi.net> <4CF6738F.1030409@brouhaha.com> <20101201140346.S26310@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 2:18 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? > > "A REAL programmer can write a FORTRAN program in any language." > > Assembly language is necessary if one is to get full optimization of > performance. Many people don't agree with that, and insist that > throwing > more hardware at it is easier, particularly for people in a big hurry. > ("The hardware is done. Now you can start writing the OS. You have 6 > weeks") > I don't necessarily agree that assembler is required "to get full optimization of performance" today because of the work that's been done over the past three decades or so in compiler design. Modern compilers are written to take advantage of every trick available on the target platform such as load hoisting, redundant load/store elimination, loop unrolling, conditional execution and the like, over varying code scopes that aren't apparent across a project of a non-trivial size. Perhaps a really really good assembly language programmer could produce code a tiny bit faster than a reasonably well-written compiler could, but at what cost in development time? I certainly agree that "more hardware - MORE!" is not the solution, which I think is an important part of the argument you make. BTW, improvements in compiler technology was an argument I used as a test manager with ${a large software company} when I told coders in code reviews it wasn't acceptable to write indecipherable code because "it would be more efficient." Today I use the intermediate variables I need to make the code's functionality clear (and maintainable), because I'm confident they'll be optimized away by the compiler. That's not just opinion - I've tested it. :-) -- Ian From trag at io.com Wed Dec 1 16:52:16 2010 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 16:52:16 -0600 (CST) Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8d0f4e0bfb127e61999140c202a23040.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> > Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 12:55:59 -0500 > From: William Donzelli >> ? That is not so hard, it is very common to build machines like this in >> Brazil. > > Second hand Taigs are fairly plentiful and not horribly expensive. > They are plenty capable of PC board drillwork, plus you can do all > sortf os other fun things with them as well. I did a search on Taig. Interesting machines and the prices look comparatively good. I was considering a lathe a while back for my rocketry hobby... Which machine would one need for automated drilling? It looks like the CNC Mill would be needed. It's new price is $2200+. It would have to be discounted an awful lot on the used market before I would think that was a better buy than just having boards professionally fabricated. I think the Micro Mill is mechanically capable of the job, but it doesn't seem to have any type of automated controls, but perhaps I just don't understand what a mill is. Which leads to the other issue. In order to make an intelligent decision about buying a drilling machine, it seems that I must become moderately educated about the art of machining. Which is an interesting topic, but not the hobby I was setting out to practice. This is what ultimately stopped me from buying a lathe for rocketry. Toner transfer PCB fabrication is attractive because I already have a laser printer that serves another purpose. A laminator takes up little space and is easy to put away. The etching tank is a bit of a pain, but not too bad. The problem is when I start adding in a milling machine, learning enough about machining to make intelligent purchases, or building a drilling machine out of a plotter, and the same two issues for electroplating, which also kind of leads to building one's own power supply (AKA plating rectifier). All of these are interesting topics/diversions, but enough of them and one isn't practicing hobby electronics any more, one is practicing PCB making as the primary hobby. Of course, if enough of my hobbies lead to machining, maybe I should take it up. I don't know where I'd make the space for the tools though. Someone else mentioned using a drill press with jigs. How would that work? Would that be like having a pre-drilled template? That might be interesting. I could see using the toner transfer procedure on a piece of steel, then drilling the steel and then pegging boards to the steel for future drilling in stacks. Might be a little hard on the drills if they aren't well centered though. Jeff Walther From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 1 16:55:12 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2010 14:55:12 -0800 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: References: <0aa101cb90d1$4b749fd0$136d76bb@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Nov 30, 10 06:56:45 pm, Message-ID: <4CF661D0.14358.10C5B57@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Dec 2010 at 19:34, Tony Duell wrote: > I do not dispute htat. My main comment was to the poster who suggested > an ARM-based microocntroller (I have never seen seen such a device in > a DIL package) No, but there's at least one in a PLCC package, sockets for which have contacts on 0.100" centers, so in my mind, a PLCC is about the same as a DIL socket regarding ease of use. If I'm really dead-set on a through-hole package (perhaps I want to wire-wrap the design), SMT adapters are inexpensive are easy to use. What's more of a consideration for me is the shift to 3.3V logic and using mixed signal levels. While many uCs have 5V tolerant inputs, many don't and adding either a resistor-clamp-diode network to each 5V output, or resorting to a made-for the-purpose IC to shift levels is a bit of a bother. It's actually surprising that a number of manufacturers have modern MCUs in DIL configurations. Even the TI MSP430 has at least one family member in a 14 pin DIL package. If you're making things for your own use, fine--use whatever works for you. But don't expect others to use galena-and-catwhisker diodes or ammonium sulphate and aluminum wet rectifiers. Consider a project to convert a PC AT-type keyboard to a PC XT one. I could do this with a Z80, an SIO chip, some ROM and some RAM--and the "glue" to interface it all, or I could do it with an 8 pin PIC microcontroller that costs less than a dollar. The choice to me is a no-brainer--my design debugging time will be substantially less. As far as learning new instruction sets, that's a big shrug. After your first dozen or two, they all pretty much look the same. I've yet to be really surprised by any new one--hardly any learning at all- -and most new uCs can be programmed in C at any rate. Show me a new dataflow uC with 19 bit words that uses a Chen-Ho encoding and I'll be surprised. One big benefit of modern uCs is the number and variety of I/O pins. You simply can't find a 144-pin DIL package. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 1 17:06:31 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2010 15:06:31 -0800 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: , <20101201140346.S26310@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: <4CF66477.30500.116B686@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Dec 2010 at 14:45, Ian King wrote: > I don't necessarily agree that assembler is required "to get full > optimization of performance" today because of the work that's been > done over the past three decades or so in compiler design. Modern > compilers are written to take advantage of every trick available on > the target platform such as load hoisting, redundant load/store > elimination, loop unrolling, conditional execution and the like, over > varying code scopes that aren't apparent across a project of a > non-trivial size. Perhaps a really really good assembly language > programmer could produce code a tiny bit faster than a reasonably > well-written compiler could, but at what cost in development time? I've seen where a good optimizing FORTRAN compiler can do substantially better than the run of the mill assembly programmer simply because the compiler can cast a wider net (e.g. global optimizations, register allocation, etc.), knows more tricks and usually does a better job of instruction scheduling than the average programmer. Of course, badly-written code in any language can thwart even the best compiler's efforts to generate good code. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 17:23:59 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 18:23:59 -0500 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: <8d0f4e0bfb127e61999140c202a23040.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> References: <8d0f4e0bfb127e61999140c202a23040.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> Message-ID: > Which machine would one need for automated drilling? ? It looks like the > CNC Mill would be needed. ?It's new price is $2200+. ?It would have to be > discounted an awful lot on the used market before I would think that was a > better buy than just having boards professionally fabricated. You could probably get a capable machine for $500 on the used market. There are quite a few kicking around. Clearly a fairly simple machine is all that is needed. > In order to make an intelligent decision > about buying a drilling machine, it seems that I must become moderately > educated about the art of machining. ? Which is an interesting topic, but > not the hobby I was setting out to practice. Not really. Drilling holes in a flat surface is probably the easiest thing you can learn and do. Simple enough you could even do the coding by hand. -- Will From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 17:30:58 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 18:30:58 -0500 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: References: <8d0f4e0bfb127e61999140c202a23040.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 6:23 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > You could probably get a capable machine for $500 on the used market. > There are quite a few kicking around. Clearly a fairly simple machine > is all that is needed. I've seen more than one machine capable of this task sell for around $500 in my area in the past year. I've chosen to make my own (a McWire, for those that know about Instructables and Makerbots). It's mostly done - I just need some time over/after the holidays to put the finishing touches on it. My cost is about $200 for the electronics and the motors and less than that again for the framework and moving plates. > Not really. Drilling holes in a flat surface is probably the easiest > thing you can learn and do. Simple enough you could even do the coding > by hand. GCode is pretty simple, and it's not difficult to turn an excellon drill file (the standard thing that fab houses want, that any competent schematic CAD package should be able to generate) into GCode. -ethan From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Wed Dec 1 17:35:52 2010 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 15:35:52 -0800 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5450F2940A10417780E426EC57A9C5E1@tegp4> I haven't been following this thread too closely so I may have missed something, but it seems to me that the proposed solutions are overly complex. One simple solution that comes to mind is to define a set of vendor unique SCSI commands, one for each of the registers in the IDE command stack and then do all the emulation in the device driver on the host side. The interface card is just then a simple state machine; really simple if u make it a non arbitrating protocol implementation and use PIO for data transfers (SCSI-1 lives :-). Tom From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 1 17:44:47 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2010 16:44:47 -0700 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: <20101130203359.U98427@shell.lmi.net> <4CF6738F.1030409@brouhaha.com> <20101201140346.S26310@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: In article , Ian King writes: > I don't necessarily agree that assembler is required "to get full > optimization of performance" today because of the work that's been done > over the past thre e decades or so in compiler design. I agree. For instance, templated C++ recursive descent parsers can produce code that is faster than the C library routine atoi. See -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 1 17:45:57 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2010 16:45:57 -0700 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: <4CF66477.30500.116B686@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20101201140346.S26310@shell.lmi.net>, <4CF66477.30500.116B686@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4CF66477.30500.116B686 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > I've seen where a good optimizing FORTRAN compiler can do > substantially better than the run of the mill assembly programmer > [...] One interesting thing about FORTRAN that keeps it alive is that due to the semantics of FORTRAN compared to C, its easier to optimize the execution of FORTRAN statements. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 1 18:19:35 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2010 16:19:35 -0800 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: , <4CF66477.30500.116B686@cclist.sydex.com> , Message-ID: <4CF67597.4586.1599B67@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Dec 2010 at 16:45, Richard wrote: > One interesting thing about FORTRAN that keeps it alive is that due to > the semantics of FORTRAN compared to C, its easier to optimize the > execution of FORTRAN statements. Indeed. Back in the 80's, we got some very good compiler people together to write an optimizing vectorizing FORTRAN compiler, using a lot of very aggressive methods. Since we'd done all of the heavy lifting, we thought that it would be a good idea to take the same back end and write a C front end for it. Easy money, right? After much hair-pulling, we came to the conclusion that pointer variables are evil; pointers to pointers are extremely evil and C programmers use entirely too much of both. --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Dec 1 19:41:28 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 17:41:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: from Rich Alderson at "Dec 1, 10 12:42:55 pm" Message-ID: <201012020141.oB21fSAE022320@floodgap.com> > Only the Toolbox was (very highly bummed) 68K assembler. FTR, since we're mentioning 68K OSes like the Amiga and original Mac, AMOS on the Alpha Micros started as "WD-16" assembly, and then 68000 assembly, although using AM's weird macro syntax. Most systems programming was done directly with the AM assembler, although application programs were usually written and compiled in AlphaBASIC. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Proponents of other opinions will be merrily beaten to a bloody pulp. ------ From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 1 19:47:23 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 17:47:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: <4CF66477.30500.116B686@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20101201140346.S26310@shell.lmi.net>, <4CF66477.30500.116B686@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20101201173722.Y33162@shell.lmi.net> > On 1 Dec 2010 at 14:45, Ian King wrote: > > I don't necessarily agree that assembler is required "to get full > > optimization of performance" today because of the work that's been > > done over the past three decades or so in compiler design. Modern > > compilers are written to take advantage of every trick available on > > the target platform such as load hoisting, redundant load/store > > elimination, loop unrolling, conditional execution and the like, over > > varying code scopes that aren't apparent across a project of a > > non-trivial size. Perhaps a really really good assembly language > > programmer could produce code a tiny bit faster than a reasonably > > well-written compiler could, but at what cost in development time? On Wed, 1 Dec 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've seen where a good optimizing FORTRAN compiler can do > substantially better than the run of the mill assembly programmer > simply because the compiler can cast a wider net (e.g. global > optimizations, register allocation, etc.), knows more tricks and > usually does a better job of instruction scheduling than the average > programmer. Well, there's no question in my mind that an excellent programmer can out-optimize a mediocre compiler, and an excellent compiler can out-optimize a mediocre programmer. Depending on their personal strengths would determine how well given programmers would do relative to the compilers that they wrote. Some things are fairly straightforward, but the maximum optimization depends on an understanding of what the intent of a section of code is. I remember some minor difficulties with the optimizations on Microsoft CF 5.0? (viewing and tampering with the keyboard buffer in BIOS RAM, rather than using an INT21h function) Microsoft fixed most of those with the next version, by adding in the "volatile" keyword, and providing a manual over-ride on what portions of the code were to be optimized. It seems that every publisher's first attempt at creating an optimizing compiler results in a new release that gives the user the power to turn off local optimizations. > Of course, badly-written code in any language can thwart even the > best compiler's efforts to generate good code. . . . and somebody who writes a lot of bad code can probably manage to write even worse code with the help of a compiler. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Dec 1 19:59:25 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 20:59:25 -0500 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? References: , <20101201140346.S26310@shell.lmi.net>, <4CF66477.30500.116B686@cclist.sydex.com> <20101201173722.Y33162@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 8:47 PM Subject: RE: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? > Well, there's no question in my mind that > an excellent programmer can out-optimize a mediocre compiler, and > an excellent compiler can out-optimize a mediocre programmer. > Depending on their personal strengths would determine how well given > programmers would do relative to the compilers that they wrote. > Coding "optimizing" to me means getting the job done with well commented code in a manner that the average programmer can figure out, maintain, and add to as needed. Sure some people can even do better then a good compiler but will most people understand what is going on with those special tricks and why they were used, plus can people add to the code without screwing something up or it crashing if the hardware is changed? From cctech at vax-11.org Wed Dec 1 20:14:16 2010 From: cctech at vax-11.org (cctech at vax-11.org) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 19:14:16 -0700 (MST) Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: References: <2E1ADA14CBCC4900B4DAB2615D10FEE0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Nov 2010, Robert Borsuk wrote: > Instead of starting a flame war, or another "project" how about another solution: > > How about using a PC to emulate a SCSI drive? > > Found an interesting blurb at > > http://linux.derkeiler.com/Newsgroups/comp.os.linux.misc/2008-02/msg00055.html > > Haven't pursued it any further but it might be simpler then building your own. > > Rob > > Most SCSI drives (primarily CD-ROMs) I worked on had fairly simple interface logic, and the bulk of the heavy lifting was done by the microcontroller. I've been trying to track down a datasheet for one of the old Cirrus Logic SCSI CDROM chips, but thus far have been unable to. The chips I worked on had a moderate amount of automation (possibly even scatter-gather support), but in essence were just fancy DMA controllers that could handshake with a SCSI host. Clint From cctech at vax-11.org Wed Dec 1 20:14:47 2010 From: cctech at vax-11.org (cctech at vax-11.org) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 19:14:47 -0700 (MST) Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: <20101129190657.GA28637@n0jcf.net> References: <48A1B7FE9926437B80ACF36143E2F7DC@andrewdesktop> <20101129190657.GA28637@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: Excellent plan! On Mon, 29 Nov 2010, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > Maybe someone should invent a SCSI target board (old, parallel SCSI > interface) that turns it into iSCSI initiator over ethernet on the > other side and then your actual disk is anything you can connect to a > Linux box or other server running iSCSI target host code. Now you can > have multiple old systems connecting to your storage pool, which would > essentially be a SAN made from a Linux box. > > -- > Chris Elmquist > From john_finigan at yahoo.com Wed Dec 1 20:20:40 2010 From: john_finigan at yahoo.com (John Finigan) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 18:20:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? Message-ID: <747397.24766.qm@web37001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> On PersonalAlpha, Zane Healy wrote: > I have two major issues with it. One is it requires > Windows, the other is > that it is restricted to 128MB of RAM. Stromasys actually has an AlphaStation 400 emulator that runs on Linux, and allows at least 512 MB. You have to register on their site, but it's free. There's an also ES40 emulator that I think will allow several GB. The AS400 runs Tru64 reasonably on my 2.X GHz AMD PC. PersonalAlpha emulates a 3000/400 but won't boot prehistoric OSF/1 versions like 2.0, last time I tried. Not that I can blame them. I wonder if 2.0 is still in use anywhere? John Finigan From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 1 20:42:42 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2010 18:42:42 -0800 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4CF69722.4553.1DCA31A@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Dec 2010 at 20:59, Teo Zenios wrote: > Coding "optimizing" to me means getting the job done with well > commented code in a manner that the average programmer can figure out, > maintain, and add to as needed. Sure some people can even do better > then a good compiler but will most people understand what is going on > with those special tricks and why they were used, plus can people add > to the code without screwing something up or it crashing if the > hardware is changed? In my own experience, most programmers think about optimization only when it matters; i.e. work really hard on the "hot spots" and leave everything else relatively straightforward. Effectively using a compiler with an all-out optimizer requires a fair bit of knowledge on the part of user. Consider the following (overly) simple example... DO 100 I=1,N 100 C(I) = A(I)+B(I) On a machine with pipelined instruction issue, a possible optimization might be SET I=1 LOAD A(1) LOAD B(1) LABEL1: IS I > N, EXIT IF TRUE COMPUTE C INCREMENT I STORE C(I-1) LOAD A(I) LOAD B(I) GOTO LABEL1 This potentially allows the CPU to run at issue rate with no "bubbles" due to waiting on a storage access. In most cases this will work just fine. However, change the loop index to a non-unitary stride--e.g., DO 100 I=1,N,100 and you run the risk of an address fault as the last+1 set of operands for the loop is fetched. Should you eliminate the prefetch optimization altogether or give the user the option of selectively applying it? The Microsoft issue, I recall was with dead code elimination. The C expression while( C != 0); could normally be eliminated if C was 0--unless C referred to a memory location that was changed by some external influence, e.g. a hardware status byte. The "volatile" keyword told the optimizer to keep hands off. The beauty of a good optimizer is that it allows one to write legible code that still turns in good performance. --Chuck From lynchaj at yahoo.com Wed Dec 1 21:47:15 2010 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 22:47:15 -0500 Subject: Emailing: SCSI to IDE.htm Message-ID: <447E21A9EEB8462EB2474BCA2F449761@andrewdesktop> SCSI to IDE Tom Gardner thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Wed Dec 1 17:35:52 CST 2010 * Previous message: SCSI to IDE * Next message: SCSI to IDE * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] _____ I haven't been following this thread too closely so I may have missed something, but it seems to me that the proposed solutions are overly complex. One simple solution that comes to mind is to define a set of vendor unique SCSI commands, one for each of the registers in the IDE command stack and then do all the emulation in the device driver on the host side. The interface card is just then a simple state machine; really simple if u make it a non arbitrating protocol implementation and use PIO for data transfers (SCSI-1 lives :-). Tom _____ * Previous message: SCSI to IDE * Next message: SCSI to IDE * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] _____ More information about the cctalk mailing list _____ -----REPLY----- I agree and have started a new thread for a SCSI to IDE converter board over on Vintage-Computer.com forums. If you or anyone is interested in the project stop on by and help out. http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?22906-SCSI-1-to-from- IDE-drive-converter The project is a Z80 CPU, NVSRAM, EEPROM, UART, 8255 PPI IDE, and Z53C80 SCSI-1 controller. The UART is for a serial port to program the converter board and store parameters in the NVSRAM and allows for ROM reprogramming in circuit. It is on a dual layer Eurocard and uses 14 ICs plus connectors, passives, etc. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 1 21:53:13 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 22:53:13 -0500 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: <5450F2940A10417780E426EC57A9C5E1@tegp4> References: <5450F2940A10417780E426EC57A9C5E1@tegp4> Message-ID: Eh...this would have the same problems as the scads if other "all the smarts are in the OS device driver" products. Poor platform support, difficulty in supporting newer (or older) platforms, version dependencies, etc etc. Standard interfaces and protocols exist for a reason.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL On Dec 1, 2010, at 6:35 PM, "Tom Gardner" wrote: > I haven't been following this thread too closely so I may have missed > something, but it seems to me that the proposed solutions are overly > complex. One simple solution that comes to mind is to define a set of > vendor unique SCSI commands, one for each of the registers in the IDE > command stack and then do all the emulation in the device driver on the host > side. The interface card is just then a simple state machine; really simple > if u make it a non arbitrating protocol implementation and use PIO for data > transfers (SCSI-1 lives :-). > > Tom > From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 1 22:05:35 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 20:05:35 -0800 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: <747397.24766.qm@web37001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <747397.24766.qm@web37001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 6:20 PM -0800 12/1/10, John Finigan wrote: >On PersonalAlpha, Zane Healy wrote: > >> I have two major issues with it. One is it requires >> Windows, the other is >> that it is restricted to 128MB of RAM. > >Stromasys actually has an AlphaStation 400 emulator that runs on Linux, >and allows at least 512 MB. >You have to register on their site, but it's free. >There's an also ES40 emulator that I think will allow several GB. >The AS400 runs Tru64 reasonably on my 2.X GHz AMD PC. I'm currently creating an account. If I can get 512Mb under Linux, I'm in business! That would allow me to squeeze what I *need* in there, and probably get acceptable performance. I'm a little concerned about the time limited nature though. >PersonalAlpha emulates a 3000/400 but won't boot prehistoric OSF/1 >versions like 2.0, last time I tried. Not that I can blame them. >I wonder if 2.0 is still in use anywhere? Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if someone still is. We have some very old UNIX boxes at work still running, though none that old. When you have requirements to run an application that only runs on a specific OS version, you have problems. :-( Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From jlobocki at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 11:38:35 2010 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 11:38:35 -0600 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: <20101129190657.GA28637@n0jcf.net> References: <48A1B7FE9926437B80ACF36143E2F7DC@andrewdesktop> <20101129190657.GA28637@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: Well alright then, if its just a flame war I wont bother bringing it up. Just thought it would be an interesting idea, a way to keep the machines running in the future with a cheap media when scsi becomes unavailable or too expensive because of its rarity. Anyone who has come up with ideas, i'd encourage you to move forward with at least a theory or virtual model, if not a physical device. From tingox at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 11:58:47 2010 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 18:58:47 +0100 Subject: System Implementation Languages (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: <4CF68A6D.8010400@bitsavers.org> References: <20101201052344.B4CD3A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4CF68A6D.8010400@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 6:48 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/1/10 9:28 AM, Paco Linux wrote: > > IIRC there was something earlier written in BCPL. >>> >>> > Cambridge University TRIPOS and the Alto operating system are in BCPL > I believe the first version of AmigaDOS (v1.x) also was written in BCPL. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Thu Dec 2 00:57:10 2010 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 17:57:10 +1100 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: <20101130225024.C3751A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <6E6D44D964A64B9BA6BC8DF4BEF52E12@ANTONIOPC> <20101201000003.E5D88A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <510CA1C1-E0F3-4313-A3E8-C45436411E72@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 02/12/2010, at 6:38 AM, Mark Davidson wrote: > > What are people's opinions of Personal Alpha > (http://www.stromasys.ch/hardware-virtualization-solutions/charon-axp/download-personalalpha/)? Great way of running OpenVMS without powering up real hardware (which is inevitably noisier than my laptop). Pity it's only Windows - would be nice if it ran natively on Linux or Mac OS-X. I do have it running under Xen on my Linux server - in fact on four virtual machines forming a cluster. I used it a while back for a customer presentation on Availability Manager - much easier to stop a virtual machine :-) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Dec 2 01:26:24 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 08:26:24 +0100 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: <20101201140346.S26310@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101130203359.U98427@shell.lmi.net> <4CF6738F.1030409@brouhaha.com> <20101201140346.S26310@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20101202072624.GA21066@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Dec 01, 2010 at 02:17:53PM -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Assembly language is necessary if one is to get full optimization of > performance. Many people don't agree with that, and insist that throwing > more hardware at it is easier, particularly for people in a big hurry. > I strongly disagree. I've read the other replies but none have touched on one big reson why assembly is less important today: Memory latency! I doesn't matter if your loop is unrolled or made to avoid bubbles in the pipeline if you have to wait some 100 ns for data because of a cache miss. Optimizing today means keeping your memory management straight. The levels of indirection imposed by high level languages and virtual machines doesn't help, which is an argument for assembly :) Another argument for assembly is that it tends to make your code smaller. However, in the end, I think the key to fast code is to know your hardware, your compiler and your problem domain, none of which is easy. Cheers - Pontus From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Dec 2 01:28:10 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 02:28:10 -0500 Subject: SCSI to IDE References: <48A1B7FE9926437B80ACF36143E2F7DC@andrewdesktop><20101129190657.GA28637@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "joe lobocki" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 12:38 PM Subject: Re: SCSI to IDE > Well alright then, if its just a flame war I wont bother bringing it > up. Just thought it would be an interesting idea, a way to keep the > machines running in the future with a cheap media when scsi becomes > unavailable or too expensive because of its rarity. > > Anyone who has come up with ideas, i'd encourage you to move forward > with at least a theory or virtual model, if not a physical device. How hard would it be to make an adapter from SCSI (or laptop IDE) to SD cards (the ones all these digital cameras use)? I figure there will be millions of those things in the 256MB to several GB range (perfect for old systems), they should be fast enough, small enough, and about worthless plus easy to ship cheaply. People are using IDE to CF adapters but it seems to be SD is more common and much smaller. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 2 02:56:33 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 01:56:33 -0700 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: <20101202072624.GA21066@Update.UU.SE> References: <20101130203359.U98427@shell.lmi.net> <4CF6738F.1030409@brouhaha.com> <20101201140346.S26310@shell.lmi.net> <20101202072624.GA21066@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: In article <20101202072624.GA21066 at Update.UU.SE>, Pontus Pihlgren writes: > Optimizing today means keeping your memory management straight. The real-time gaming guys agree with you 100%. By the way, so does the guy who wrote Varnish. See, for example, this article written by the author of Varnish. (No ACM membership required to read.) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Dec 2 03:03:18 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 10:03:18 +0100 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: <20101130203359.U98427@shell.lmi.net> <4CF6738F.1030409@brouhaha.com> <20101201140346.S26310@shell.lmi.net> <20101202072624.GA21066@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20101202090317.GA27897@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Dec 02, 2010 at 01:56:33AM -0700, Richard wrote: > See, for example, this article written by the author of Varnish. > Well, It migth not come as a surprise that I've already read that :) But my Computer Architecture professor pounded the message into me already when I studied for my computer science degree. /P From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Dec 2 07:20:45 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 13:20:45 +0000 Subject: AT&T 3B1 keyboard protocol Message-ID: <4CF79D2D.30702@philpem.me.uk> (once more, from the correct email account...) Hi guys, Does anyone have any details on the control protocol for the keyboard on the AT&T 3B1? A command list and/or scan code list would be most useful... or even actual driver source code :) I'm about a third of the way there with my emulator -- it's running the BootPROM, passes the MAPRAM, VRAM and Base RAM self tests, and I'm well on the way to implementing memory mapping/protection and the UI interfaces (keyboard, mouse and video)... I'm not sure how to go about emulating the telephony hardware though; I might just leave that "unemulated" for now. Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 2 11:18:47 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 10:18:47 -0700 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: <20101202090317.GA27897@Update.UU.SE> References: <20101130203359.U98427@shell.lmi.net> <4CF6738F.1030409@brouhaha.com> <20101201140346.S26310@shell.lmi.net> <20101202072624.GA21066@Update.UU.SE> <20101202090317.GA27897@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: In article <20101202090317.GA27897 at Update.UU.SE>, Pontus Pihlgren writes: > On Thu, Dec 02, 2010 at 01:56:33AM -0700, Richard wrote: > > See, for example, this article written by the author of Varnish. > > > > Well, It migth not come as a surprise that I've already read that :) But > my Computer Architecture professor pounded the message into me already > when I studied for my computer science degree. I don't recall cache being discussed at all when I was an undergrad (1982-1986), but it came up in computer architecture courses when I was a grad student. Since then, cache (or memory latency in general) has become the dominating factor in high performance systems. The Cell processor takes what you might call an "architectural left turn" as a result of the size of off-chip memory latencies, by putting fast SRAM in the SPU processors and treating off-chip memory access as essentially an I/O operation akin to getting data from a disk drive. SPU processors have no cache and no direct external memory bus. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 2 12:09:47 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 11:09:47 -0700 Subject: MACRO FAP Message-ID: Ken Knowlton sent me a paper from AFIPS 1964 on his BEFLIX language for creating animations (named from "Bell Flicks" as the work was done at Bell Labs). The language uses "MACRO FAP" as its implementation layer so to create a modern implementation of BEFLIX, I would need to know some things about "MACRO FAP". Google led me to this page: Which seems to be the IBM 7090 assembly source code for the MACRO FAP program, from which I glean that "FAP" is an acronym for "FORTRAN ASSEMBLY PROGRAM". I don't know 7090 assembly, although I can guess at the opcodes. This leads me to the following questions: 1) How long has softwarepreservation.org been around? Its part of the CHM, but I haven't stumbled on this web site before. 2) Does anyone have any experience with MACRO FAP that can help me understand the semantics of MACRO FAP instructions? 3) Barring that, does anyone have any IBM 7090 assembly experience that can help me understand the semantics of the implementation of MACRO FAP so that I can understand the semantics of its command language? BEFLIX is actually quite interesting and could be fun in creating animated movies today. Its got a combination of simple 2D graphics primitives, turtle graphics and animation control in its command set. I'd like to write a BEFLIX interpreter for modern experimentation. Seeing as BEFLIX was created in 1964, its probably one of the oldest, if not the oldest, domain specific language for creating computer graphics animations. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Dec 2 12:54:06 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 10:54:06 -0800 Subject: MACRO FAP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CF7EB4E.5000709@bitsavers.org> On 12/2/10 10:09 AM, Richard wrote: > 1) How long has softwarepreservation.org been around? Its part of the > CHM, but I haven't stumbled on this web site before. > It is the Software Special Interest group at CHM. The Plone has been active for about five years. > 2) Does anyone have any experience with MACRO FAP that can help me > understand the semantics of MACRO FAP instructions? > Dave Pitts would be a good person to talk to -- From: Dave Pitts Reply-To: dpitts at cozx.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.ibm,alt.comp.emulators Hello All: I've got an initial cut of CTSS running under the s709 simulator. I've put the most current versions up under my site: http://www.cozx.com/~dpitts/ibm7090.html I've also put on the site the current CTSS source and some prebuilt kits. There are still some issues with it; but I think it is in a good enough state to let you all in on it. If you'd like to contribute to the restoration effort (and exercise the IBM 7094 neurons). I'd welcome the help... It currently supports the FAP assembler and the MAD compiler. The QED, EDC and EDL text editors. The command script processor RUNCOM and FIB submission. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 2 13:04:06 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 11:04:06 -0800 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: , <20101202090317.GA27897@Update.UU.SE> , Message-ID: <4CF77D26.11809.9781B4@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Dec 2010 at 10:18, Richard wrote: > I don't recall cache being discussed at all when I was an undergrad > (1982-1986), but it came up in computer architecture courses when I > was a grad student. Since then, cache (or memory latency in general) > has become the dominating factor in high performance systems. Memory latency issues are almost as old as stored-program computers. Just look at the instruction set of an IBM 650 and the mental effort needed to time instruction execution to drum rotation. Mainframes have had instruction caches since the 1960s (and probably before that) and a good programmer learned to use them. (Didn't the 650 have an option of a small core memory that could be used to execute loops?). Even in 1971 we were talking about "bubbles in the pipe" that a memory accesses could cause and what to do about them. Core latency in general was solved by interleaving, so any non- consecutive access could have detrimental effects. Something you don't see anymore is the penalty incurred by a program repeatedly hitting the same bank of memory. On modern machines, that might be considered as a plus, but not so on all older hardware. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 2 13:47:49 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 14:47:49 -0500 Subject: Excessive optimization (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 9:42 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The Microsoft issue, I recall was with dead code elimination. ?The C > expression > > ? ? ? ?while( C != 0); > > could normally be eliminated if C was 0... I have used the following in embedded code to tight-loop the CPU in certain circumstances, intentionally requiring a reset of the processor to escape... for (;;) ; I suppose a good optimizer would know that you really meant to do that and should produce something resembling the following $1: JMP $1 ...but I certainly wouldn't want that statement optimized out entirely. > The beauty of a good optimizer is that it allows one to write legible > code that still turns in good performance. Indeed. The horror of a bad optimizer (and I _have_ seen this) is that it introduces bugs that vanish when the optimizer is turned off. -ethan From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Dec 2 14:04:12 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 12:04:12 -0800 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: <20101130203359.U98427@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CF7FBBC.5030002@brouhaha.com> Rich Alderson wrote: > I don't believe that Mac OS shared any code with the Lisa. Bill Atkinson wrote QuickDraw (originally named LisaGraf) in Pascal on the Lisa, then rewrote it in assembly. The assembly version was used on the Mac. My vague recollection is that the assembly version also got used on the Lisa, but I could be wrong about that. If so, it's probably the only shared code. (Not counting MacWorks.) Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Dec 2 14:29:14 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 12:29:14 -0800 Subject: Excessive optimization (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CF8019A.30803@brouhaha.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I have used the following in embedded code to tight-loop the CPU in > certain circumstances, intentionally requiring a reset of the > processor to escape... > > for (;;) > ; > > I suppose a good optimizer would know that you really meant to do that > and should produce something resembling the following > > $1: JMP $1 > > ...but I certainly wouldn't want that statement optimized out entirely. > If the compiler optimized that out entirely, the compiler is defective. Optimizations are not supposed to change the semantics of well-formed code. On the other hand, the compiler is free to optimize int i; for (i = 0; i < 100; i++) ; into int i; i = 100; Since that does not change the semantics. Eric From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 2 14:32:39 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 13:32:39 -0700 Subject: Excessive optimization (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Ethan Dicks writes: > I have used the following in embedded code to tight-loop the CPU in > certain circumstances, intentionally requiring a reset of the > processor to escape... > > for (;;) > ; I don't see how this is an infinite loop requiring reset of the processor to escape since the condition clause is empty. In fact, since the condition clause is empty, I'm not even sure its syntactically valid, but C is strange enough that it may be syntactically valid but not intuititve. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Dec 2 14:47:26 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 20:47:26 -0000 Subject: Excessive optimization (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: <4CF8019A.30803@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <3DAB4239B0D344C78B9E0DD9F8639B28@ANTONIOPC> Eric Smith [eric at brouhaha.com] wrote: > If the compiler optimized that out entirely, the compiler is > defective. Optimizations are not supposed to change the semantics of > well-formed code. > > On the other hand, the compiler is free to optimize > > int i; > for (i = 0; i < 100; i++) > ; > > into > > int i; > i = 100; > > Since that does not change the semantics. Indeed. In fact the very first time I helped someone with a "program bug" was precisely that example, except in FORTRAN (on VAX/VMS). He wanted to slow down execution of the program for some reason I forget now and found that it ran at the same speed no matter how large a value of 100 he chose. He wouldn't believe that the FORTRAN compiler had helpfully turned the loop into a simple assignment until I showed him exactly what it had done in the listing file. Antonio From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 2 14:59:30 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 15:59:30 -0500 Subject: Excessive optimization (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 3:32 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article , > ? ?Ethan Dicks writes: > >> I have used the following in embedded code to tight-loop the CPU in >> certain circumstances, intentionally requiring a reset of the >> processor to escape... >> >> for (;;) >> ? ; > > I don't see how this is an infinite loop requiring reset of the > processor to escape since the condition clause is empty. > ?In fact, > since the condition clause is empty, I'm not even sure its > syntactically valid, but C is strange enough that it may be > syntactically valid but not intuititve. It is valid. C does not require that all (or in fact any) portion of the for() construct be populated, so with no condition clause, the loop will never exit without a break; The following line is a valid statement in C for "no operation", a lexical placeholder. It should evaluate the same as "{ }". The whole effect is to say "forever, do nothing". Running on a machine with a modern operating system, your process should loop endlessly until killed. On an embedded processor (the context I mentioned at the start), there's no "process" as such, so nothing to be killed, and with no programmatic escape from the loop, all you can do is restart the processor. I've used it as a "hang forever" debugging token to let me step through bits of embedded code and go no further - that way, I can reset the machine, watch various things happen, I/O lines change state, etc., then know that below a certain point in the code, activity beyond fetching the same address endlessly will cease. I wouldn't want my C compiler to optimize out the null-statement since it "does nothing". It does nothing forever, but it does it intentionally. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 2 15:02:17 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 16:02:17 -0500 Subject: Excessive optimization (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: <4CF8019A.30803@brouhaha.com> References: <4CF8019A.30803@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 3:29 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> ...but I certainly wouldn't want that statement optimized out entirely. >> > > If the compiler optimized that out entirely, the compiler is defective. > ?Optimizations are not supposed to change the semantics of well-formed code. I agree. They are not. OTOH, IIRC, I had problems with the optimizer on certain early versions of Lattice C on the Amiga where code ported from, say, comp.sources.games, that worked as-is in a UNIX environment (so no _horrible_ bugs), failed with optimization turned on, but ran as expected with optimization turned off. > On the other hand, the compiler is free to optimize > > ? ?int i; > ? ?for (i = 0; i < 100; i++) > ? ? ? ?; > > into > > ? ?int i; > ? ?i = 100; > > Since that does not change the semantics. Agreed. -ethan From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Dec 2 15:12:13 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 21:12:13 +0000 Subject: Excessive optimization (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1291324333.29855.11.camel@ryoko> On Thu, 2010-12-02 at 13:32 -0700, Richard wrote: > In article , > Ethan Dicks writes: > > > for (;;) > > ; > > I don't see how this is an infinite loop requiring reset of the > processor to escape since the condition clause is empty. In fact, > since the condition clause is empty, I'm not even sure its > syntactically valid, but C is strange enough that it may be > syntactically valid but not intuititve. Oh, it's valid. A C for() loop has the following syntax: for (initialiser, condition, loop) Initialiser is run once before the first loop. Condition is validated at the beginning of the loop. If it is TRUE, then the loop carries on regardless. If the condition is omitted, it is assumed to be TRUE. Loop is executed once for each time the loop completes, at the end of the loop. So this: for (i=0; i<10; i++) { printf("foo %d\n", i); } Is equivalent to: i=0; while (i<10) { printf("foo %d\n", i); i++; } Kernighan & Ritchie "The C Programming Language", Second Edition "Revised for ANSI C". Page 60, section 3.5, paragraph 4, last line. I'd reference the ANSI standard, but K&R seemed just as good (and more accessible) 8^) TTFN, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 2 12:01:21 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 18:01:21 -0000 Subject: Amiga programming (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) References: <20101201052344.B4CD3A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu><20101201181246.GA21542@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <003001cb9265$c1fd0d50$f60c78d5@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 6:58 PM Subject: Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? > > I loved programming on the Amiga, but I preferred system programming > to application programming (i.e. - not so much Intuition work, but > plenty of work on device drivers for disk and network and I/O cards > and lots of console-I/O programs in C and MC68K assembly). > > -ethan > So noone here did any demo programming on the Amiga? I have only just started my first (all assembly coded) demo. It's certainly fun playing with the hardware :) I have only been working on it for a month, but hope to have the finished version done by around March next year, when I'll release it into the Amiga community and upload a video of it to YouTube :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 2 15:15:57 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 13:15:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Excessive optimization (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 2 Dec 2010, Richard wrote: > > for (;;) > > ; > > I don't see how this is an infinite loop requiring reset of the > processor to escape since the condition clause is empty. In fact, > since the condition clause is empty, I'm not even sure its > syntactically valid, but C is strange enough that it may be > syntactically valid but not intuititve. Yes, C DOES permit an empty condition clause. Valid, and often used when a programmer prefers to use the "for" rather than "while" keyword. C permits, and damn near ENCOURAGES, "puzzle code" A sparse commenting style that one might get away with in many other languages, can be a disaster in C. Consider while (*t++=*s++); Or, read any of Holub's work to see great examples of short statements in C that require a lot of thought to figure out. But, I thought that APL was a lot of fun. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Dec 2 15:19:11 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 13:19:11 -0800 Subject: Excessive optimization (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: <1291324333.29855.11.camel@ryoko> References: <1291324333.29855.11.camel@ryoko> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Philip Pemberton > Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2010 1:12 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Excessive optimization (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS > written in?) > > On Thu, 2010-12-02 at 13:32 -0700, Richard wrote: > > In article c9ErbpNYW+hMfMe=@mail.gmail.com>, > > Ethan Dicks writes: > > > > > for (;;) > > > ; > > > > I don't see how this is an infinite loop requiring reset of the > > processor to escape since the condition clause is empty. In fact, > > since the condition clause is empty, I'm not even sure its > > syntactically valid, but C is strange enough that it may be > > syntactically valid but not intuititve. > > Oh, it's valid. A C for() loop has the following syntax: > for (initialiser, condition, loop) > > Initialiser is run once before the first loop. > Condition is validated at the beginning of the loop. If it is TRUE, > then > the loop carries on regardless. If the condition is omitted, it is > assumed to be TRUE. > Loop is executed once for each time the loop completes, at the end of > the loop. > > So this: > for (i=0; i<10; i++) { > printf("foo %d\n", i); > } > > Is equivalent to: > i=0; > while (i<10) { > printf("foo %d\n", i); > i++; > } > > > Kernighan & Ritchie "The C Programming Language", Second Edition > "Revised for ANSI C". Page 60, section 3.5, paragraph 4, last line. I'd > reference the ANSI standard, but K&R seemed just as good (and more > accessible) 8^) > This discussion puts me in mind of a series of columns in "C Users Journal" about the draft ANSI standard and how it changed behaviors exhibited by some well-known compilers at the time. The "quiet changes" were the worst: those that caused working programs to fail if recompiled, but generated no warning. In developing the standard, some things came down to judgement calls, since you could demonstrate successful implementations that were on either side of the question! -- Ian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 2 13:54:43 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 19:54:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Dec 1, 10 08:00:44 pm Message-ID: > > > I do not dispute htat. My main comment was to the poster who suggested an > > ARM-based microocntroller (I have never seen seen such a device in a DIL > > package) > > There are always SMD to DIP adapters :) Which normalyl cost more than the chips to put on them (at least in the UK). > > >> - I can design a PCB at home using free tools (Kicad rulez!) > > For the nth time, the machien it runs on (and I susepct the OS it runs > > under) are not free. > > A Pentium III - which you can find in trashcans - runs it with linux. > And linux is free :) You keep on telling us that things are different between Brazil and the States, and what is common in one place is not common in the other. Whcih I happily accept. All I can say is that the UK is different again. Or at least I've enver found any form of Pentium PC for free. The latest PC that I've been given was a battered 386SX that, I have to admit, I took apart for useful bits. Also, not being a PC enthusiast, you have to relaise that while I would have things like HP-HIL keyboards and mice, HP 22kHz horizontal composte monitors, and the like, I do not have spare PC/AT or PS/2 keyboards, PC mice or VGA monitors. > > Excellent (I am not being sarcastic). Hwoever, building that equipment is > > a project in itself (albeit an interesting one). If you just want to make > > up a SCSI-drive rpelacement or whatever, why should you _have_ to make > > the PCB stuff first? > > I can always use perfoboard...or just connect the wires chip-to-chip. Sure, do thast all the time. It's a little harder (not I did not say impossible, I do it all the time) with SMD pacakges though. > > Why? As I said in anotehr message, thsi is a hobby, why shouldn't I do it > > the way I enjoy? > > You can do in any way you want :) But when I do and for people being > able to reproduce it, I try to do it in the easiest way to most hobbists to > reproduce it. :) I am actually wondering how on earth you can know what 'most hobbyists' can do, or would want to do... > > > Fine. I was ismpoly pointing out that there are people who ar > > expeerienced in (say) Z80 assemblet and not AVR. In which case, for a > > hobby project, why not use the former? > > No problem. But why not use the later, since it is more powerful, has No reason, if you want to, and you have the facilities to use it. > more built-in things and is easier to program (not everyone has an eprom > programmer, emulator, eraser, etc) for most hobbysts > > > Looking around, I don;t think I can see _one_ machine here that could be > > used for that. You mention a programmer conissiting of a few resistors > > You don't have ONE PC on your home? It is my bitter esperience that a lot of thsee parallel-port devices, even those that have software that runs under MS-DOS, do not work properly on a 4.77MHz PC/XT... > > > ona a parellel port. I've got pletny of GPIB ports here, but I guess > > that's not what you meant. OK, what about an HP9817 with an HP98522 GPIO > > card? It probably could program an Atmel processor, but I'll bet the > > software doesn't exist... > > The nice thing of open standards is that you can always roll your own :) True, and contrary to some other people here, I do like making my own tools, whether they be mechancial tools, electronic tools (like test equipment) or software tools. In fact _I_ am seriously looking at some of the current microcotnrolelr families for use in projects. But this doesn't mean everybody has to want to use them. FWIW, I was simply defending the right of some other poster to build this device using a Z80 and 8255s if he wants to. You don't like that desing? Well, nobody is stopping you making your own. > > > OK, so firtly you have to buy this tool [1] and secondly I need a USB > > host to control it. > > Ah, come on Tony, P3 are throwaway itens...P4 are cheap as candy. A nice Not round here... > post "I need a P4"will bring 3 or 4 to your door. For free. Why not use new > technology? Linux drives that, you don't need to use windows. And if you get For mt own (in)sanity, I want to unsderstand how thigns should work, so when (not if) they don't I have some chance of putting them right. I guess that answers your question... > > 6303 in one of its many varieants? 7811? COP400? 3870? Do I have to list > > any more? > > Was ist common?? When? I have come across all of those microcontrollers in my time. In fact I was using something based on the 3870 (the HPIL-GPIO interface) and reparing something containing a COP400 (HPIL knob input device -- in fact jsut about all HP-HIL devices have COP400s in them) a couple of days ago. Actually, the 8048 family is getting soemwhat hard to find now (AFAIL it is no longer manufactured), and that one turns up _everywhere_. > > > Actually I disagree with that. It's often easier to repari something with > > lots of parts, where yoy only have to replace the one bit that's failed. > > Which would you rather have to fix? An HP9830 (lots of TTL), a Sinclear > > Spectrum (custom ULA) or a modern PC motherboard. > > I can repair the three :) I can even recreate the speccy ULA in CPLD :) So can I. So what? Which would you rather repair? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 2 14:07:04 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 20:07:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Dec 1, 10 02:10:53 pm Message-ID: > > > > On Wed, 1 Dec 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > > POS (PERQ OS), wirtten in Pascal (of course). PNX (PERQ unix) was not > > suprisingly written in C, though > > Just how many "POS" OS's where there? I wasn't aware of this one, but knew > about P/OS (stripped RSX-11 for the DEC Professional), and pOS for the Amiga > in the late 90's. The PERQ one is POS (no slash, no lower case AFAIK). It's pascal-based, much of it is written in an extended pascal. The machine code of the PERQ when running POS is somewhat like the UCSD p-code, although the OS is very different (it's command-line based, in fact it feels a little like RT11) > > > Actually, What is an OS? Do the BASIC interpretters with buit-in > > keyboasrd, video display and mass-storage handling count as OSes? I could > > certainly argue they are... > > I would definitely argue that BASIC in my Commodore 8-bit systems is an OS! Yes that's the sort of thing I was thinking of. Waht about HP's BASIC fo the 9000/200 seires. It boots from disk (there is no OS prompt that you load BASIC from, you just boot the disk and get a BASIC prompt), it manages mass storage devices, I/O, etc. I would claim tht it certainly an OS (I have no idea what it was written in, but I don't think it was C). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 2 14:34:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 20:34:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: <20101201140346.S26310@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Dec 1, 10 02:17:53 pm Message-ID: > > "A REAL programmer can write a FORTRAN program in any language." :-) I wonce tranlated a piece of 6502 assembly language line-for-line into Pascal (with interger variables called A,X,Y, a boolean called carryflag, and procedures with names like ADC, etc). This led one of my frieds to observe that 'a hacker can write assembler code in any language' :-) (FWIW, I was working out how the checksum routing in a firmware ROM worked, so I could correclty update the checksum after modifyign some of the code). > > Assembly language is necessary if one is to get full optimization of > performance. Many people don't agree with that, and insist that throwing Actually, i disagree with it. I don't see why, in principle, a compiler can;t produce as tight code as a good programmer. > more hardware at it is easier, particularly for people in a big hurry. I think you all know my views on throwing procssor power at a problem. > ("The hardware is done. Now you can start writing the OS. You have 6 > weeks") > > "Nobody programs in assembly language any more, > nor ever will again" - Clancy and Harvey Sinec I hand-assembled a bit of machine code a couple of days ago, that is clearly false :-) > But "language of choice" was rarely an edict, > and there are many reasons > why many products were written in languages other > than the current "language of choice". > > Personal preference > greater familiarity with something else > best fit to the hardware > tool availability > reuse of some old code > overly-specific specs > "Baby duck syndrome" ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ What is this? Acxtually, just about all those arguements apply to using, say, a Z80 + memory+peripheral chips rahter than an all-one-one-chip microcontroller... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 2 15:13:50 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 21:13:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: <4CF661D0.14358.10C5B57@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 1, 10 02:55:12 pm Message-ID: > > I do not dispute htat. My main comment was to the poster who suggested > > an ARM-based microocntroller (I have never seen seen such a device in > > a DIL package) > > No, but there's at least one in a PLCC package, sockets for which Do you haappen to have the part number for that? And know of a supplier that sells 1-off qunanitites. When I looked at the commpon suppliers in the UK< I couldn't find any prototypiong-friemndly ARMs :-) The reason I ask about the supplier is that I rememebr som years ago when I was doing a commerical design, findin the ideal chip for the job. I thn found that _nobody_ would sell me less than a tube quantity (which as they wwre nearly \pounds 200 each was way over budget). This was after I'd done all the rest of the design... > have contacts on 0.100" centers, so in my mind, a PLCC is about the > same as a DIL socket regarding ease of use. If I'm really dead-set Actually, it's signlly harder to wire (you can't put a PLCC socket on stripboard, for example), but certianly no real problem. > on a through-hole package (perhaps I want to wire-wrap the design), > SMT adapters are inexpensive are easy to use. You can plug the PLCC socket into wire-wrap pin strips (eitehr the proper ones, or cut apart DIL wire-wrap sockets) and then wire-wrap to that. Yes, you ahve an extra contact which may reduce long-time reliability, but this is a prototype, right? > If you're making things for your own use, fine--use whatever works > for you. But don't expect others to use galena-and-catwhisker diodes > or ammonium sulphate and aluminum wet rectifiers. DOn't worry, I won't :-) > > Consider a project to convert a PC AT-type keyboard to a PC XT one. > I could do this with a Z80, an SIO chip, some ROM and some RAM--and > the "glue" to interface it all, or I could do it with an 8 pin PIC > microcontroller that costs less than a dollar. The choice to me is a > no-brainer--my design debugging time will be substantially less. And I would fully agree with you there. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 2 15:06:11 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 21:06:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: <8d0f4e0bfb127e61999140c202a23040.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> from "Jeff Walther" at Dec 1, 10 04:52:16 pm Message-ID: > I did a search on Taig. Interesting machines and the prices look > comparatively good. I was considering a lathe a while back for my In my experience, you very much 'get what you pay for' with machine tools. Tools that look too cheap to be good generally are. Also watch out for impossible accuracy. I remember seing a hobbyist CNC drill/mill kit that claimed an accuracy of 1/10 thou [1]. Well, the electronics/stepper motors may have been capable of that, but by the time you've aded in the errors due to the unevenness of the leadscews, paly i nthe bearings, flatness of the slides, etc, you are not going to get anything like that accuracy. Note that even solid-looking iron castings (like a lathe bed) may distort by that sort of amount when bolted odwn, hence the require to check and addjust all sorts of things when installing a precieison machine tool. Any machine tool that doesn't require this is most likely not precision :-) [1] To point out the obvious, a 'thou' is a thousandth of an inch. > rocketry hobby... > > Which machine would one need for automated drilling? It looks like the > CNC Mill would be needed. It's new price is $2200+. It would have to be > discounted an awful lot on the used market before I would think that was a > better buy than just having boards professionally fabricated. > > I think the Micro Mill is mechanically capable of the job, but it doesn't > seem to have any type of automated controls, but perhaps I just don't > understand what a mill is. In general, machine tools come as manual and CNC (Computer Numeric Control -- automatic) versions. The difference is that the altter have stepper motors driving the leadscres that psotion the workpiece relatice to the cutter, and thus can be used automatically. Manual machine tools have graduated dials on the controls, you have to do everything by hand. With a CNC tool, you vcan normally move everal things at once (rather like drawing a diagonal line with a pen plotter) and thus may be able ot make shapes you can't easity do on the manual version. That said, I would much rather use a good manual machine tool than a poor CNC one. A mill (or milling machine) is basically a machines that positions a workpiece against a revolving cutter. The workpiece can be moved along 3 aes, it may also be able to be rotated (with most, if not all, machine otols, you start adding accessories, either commercial or home-made and can do jobs the manuifactuerer never imagined :-)). So iot can be used as a drilling machin, or for cutting slots, odd shaped holes, cavities in metal blocks, making strange shapes out of metal blocks, cutting gears, and so on. > > Which leads to the other issue. In order to make an intelligent decision > about buying a drilling machine, it seems that I must become moderately > educated about the art of machining. Which is an interesting topic, but > not the hobby I was setting out to practice. This is very much true. Home shop machining (I much prefer that American term to the Britsh one of 'Model Engineering') is a hobby in itself. If you want to do it, it's great fun. But that's not saying you hsve to want to do it [2]. Do you know anyone who does this sort of thing and who can talk to you, and /or let you use a machine tool? Buying machine tools (lathe or mill) is a major investment, you don't just need the tool itself, but also all sorts of other bits (you won't do mcuh without a micrometer, for example). You want to be sure you want to get into it. [2] That applies to all sorts of other things, like using PLDs or microcotnrollers :-) > This is what ultimately stopped me from buying a lathe for rocketry. I finally got a lathe when I wanted to make a mechanical spare for a device that the manufactuers would not sell me. yes, the lateh cost about 10 times as much as the device was worth, but I'd been looking at them for some time, and I knew I wanted one. I have several interests where the ability to make metal parts is very useful. > Toner transfer PCB fabrication is attractive because I already have a When I was making PCbs, I found the UV method to be more reliable (even though the pre-coated boards were more expensive). The UV exposure unit is easy to build (the UV tubes are avaialbe as spares for commercial PCB exposeure untis, they are notm of course, the same as the ones used to erase EPROMS), the starters and balasts are the same as for normal fluorescent lamps, and the timer is pretty easy to design. > laser printer that serves another purpose. A laminator takes up little > space and is easy to put away. The etching tank is a bit of a pain, but > not too bad. > > The problem is when I start adding in a milling machine, learning enough > about machining to make intelligent purchases, or building a drilling > machine out of a plotter, and the same two issues for electroplating, > which also kind of leads to building one's own power supply (AKA plating > rectifier). What are you planning to plate? AFAIK gold plating (which is the one you ar most likely to wnat to do) involves some _very_ toxic substances. > > All of these are interesting topics/diversions, but enough of them and one > isn't practicing hobby electronics any more, one is practicing PCB making > as the primary hobby. It';s very much up to you. I enjoy metal machining, and it's useful in many of my hobbies (classic computing, horology, even photography). But I certainly wouldn't suggest you should go out and buy a machine tool without carefully considering what you want to do. > > Of course, if enough of my hobbies lead to machining, maybe I should take > it up. I don't know where I'd make the space for the tools though. > > Someone else mentioned using a drill press with jigs. How would that > work? Would that be like having a pre-drilled template? That might be Basically, yes. An old trick, which I've used many times with a Dremel-type drill is to clamp a bit of perboard over the IC pads on the PCB and drill through the holes on thbe perfboard. Sure they weare out fast, and the accuracy is not perfect, but it's a lot better than doing it totally by hand. > interesting. I could see using the toner transfer procedure on a piece of > steel, then drilling the steel and then pegging boards to the steel for I don't see the point of this if you're making one-offs.I would only really be interested in making one-off prototpyes at home. FOr those it's handy to be able ot chage the desing and get a quick turn-round, and/or not have to meet some minium order size. Buit if I ahve a design that I want, say, 50 or 100 boards of, I'd got to a PCB company. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 2 15:53:35 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 13:53:35 -0800 Subject: Excessive optimization (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> References: , , <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CF7A4DF.11212.132ADC4@cclist.sydex.com> I've been trying to follow this discussion, but there's a huge gap in received email (into the bit bucket?), so now I haven't the faintest idea of what's being discussed. Is there someplace I can request a digest of the last couple dozen messages? Thanks, Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Dec 2 15:54:45 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 15:54:45 -0600 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: <20101201140346.S26310@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201012022156.oB2LuBBm028786@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 02:34 PM 12/2/2010, Tony Duell wrote: >> > "Baby duck syndrome" > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >What is this? Let me google that for you. Maybe you'll debug something for me someday. "Baby Duck Syndrome denotes the tendency for computer users to "imprint" on the first system they learn, then judge other systems by their similarity to that first system. The result is that "users generally prefer systems similar to those they learned on and dislike unfamiliar systems."[1] The term may have been inspired by popular understanding of the work, experiences, and observations of Konrad Lorenz." Or, for example, why I'm still running a 1984 copy of Brief as my text editor in a DOS window on a dual-24" quad processor PC. - John From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 2 16:00:43 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 17:00:43 -0500 Subject: Excessive optimization (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: <3DAB4239B0D344C78B9E0DD9F8639B28@ANTONIOPC> References: <4CF8019A.30803@brouhaha.com> <3DAB4239B0D344C78B9E0DD9F8639B28@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 3:47 PM, wrote: > He wouldn't believe that the FORTRAN compiler had helpfully turned the > loop into a simple assignment until I showed him exactly what it had done in > the listing file. I've done that "slowdown" trick in embedded code and had it optimized down to a simple assignment. I've found that rather than tweak the compilier, tweaking the code this much... for (i=0; i < 100; i++) { a=i; } (i.e. - putting something active in the loop) ... was enough to leave the loop in and generate a few cycles for the delay. If I'm in an environment where C and assembler are mixed (not uncommon with microcontroller programming), a #asm/NOP construct works, too. -ethan From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Dec 2 16:10:20 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 14:10:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: <201012022156.oB2LuBBm028786@billY.EZWIND.NET> from John Foust at "Dec 2, 10 03:54:45 pm" Message-ID: <201012022210.oB2MAKAj023422@floodgap.com> > "Baby Duck Syndrome denotes the tendency for computer users to "imprint" on > the first system they learn, then judge other systems by their similarity > to that first system. The result is that "users generally prefer systems > similar to those they learned on and dislike unfamiliar systems."[1] The > term may have been inspired by popular understanding of the work, > experiences, and observations of Konrad Lorenz." > > Or, for example, why I'm still running a 1984 copy of Brief as my > text editor in a DOS window on a dual-24" quad processor PC. Or why I excessively favour *BSD and tcsh, being a product of the University of California and experiencing my first Un*x shell as csh on BSDI/386. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Innovation is hard to schedule. -- Dan Fylstra ----------------------------- From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Dec 2 16:08:20 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 20:08:20 -0200 Subject: SCSI to IDE References: Message-ID: <561EAE3F30CE4597BD7DA5D6153C377F@portajara> > Which normalyl cost more than the chips to put on them (at least in the > UK). I usually make them at home :) > You keep on telling us that things are different between Brazil and the > States, and what is common in one place is not common in the other. Whcih > I happily accept. All I can say is that the UK is different again. Or at > least I've enver found any form of Pentium PC for free. The latest PC > that I've been given was a battered 386SX that, I have to admit, I took > apart for useful bits. Strange. I **though** "old" PCs in UK were as cheap as water. But I still don't believe someone reading this won't give you as a gift an old P3 or even a P4. If I were near you I'd surely do that. > Also, not being a PC enthusiast, you have to relaise that while I would > have things like HP-HIL keyboards and mice, HP 22kHz horizontal composte > monitors, and the like, I do not have spare PC/AT or PS/2 keyboards, PC > mice or VGA monitors. I believe you would get a complete pack :) > Sure, do thast all the time. It's a little harder (not I did not say > impossible, I do it all the time) with SMD pacakges though. look for elm-chan.org, he does that all the time :) But as I told you, there are adapters, blah blah blah :) > I am actually wondering how on earth you can know what 'most hobbyists' > can do, or would want to do... - Keep it simple - Keep it cheap - Keep it reproductible in the easiest way > No reason, if you want to, and you have the facilities to use it. As there is no reason to the former ;) > It is my bitter esperience that a lot of thsee parallel-port devices, > even those that have software that runs under MS-DOS, do not work > properly on a 4.77MHz PC/XT... My keyboard runs faster than that... :oD > True, and contrary to some other people here, I do like making my own > tools, whether they be mechancial tools, electronic tools (like test > equipment) or software tools. In fact _I_ am seriously looking at some of > the current microcotnrolelr families for use in projects. But this > doesn't mean everybody has to want to use them. So they roll their own :) > FWIW, I was simply defending the right of some other poster to build this > device using a Z80 and 8255s if he wants to. You don't like that desing? > Well, nobody is stopping you making your own. I'm not against! You can do it however you want > For mt own (in)sanity, I want to unsderstand how thigns should work, so > when (not if) they don't I have some chance of putting them right. I > guess that answers your question... That is up to you. I have this notebook for some years, and it just works. Although I love to know my tools, I can use some I don't know the internal workings. > I have come across all of those microcontrollers in my time. In fact I > was using something based on the 3870 (the HPIL-GPIO interface) and > reparing something containing a COP400 (HPIL knob input device -- in fact > jsut about all HP-HIL devices have COP400s in them) a couple of days ago. HP does everything different :o) > Actually, the 8048 family is getting soemwhat hard to find now (AFAIL it > is no longer manufactured), and that one turns up _everywhere_. Ok, this one you are right. But as far as I remember, MCS-51 devices are pin-compatible. And since they don't have code protection, I can always download the code of a good 8048 and use a 8748 to replace it. I did it many times in Kenwood TS-430's. > So can I. So what? Which would you rather repair? The three of them :) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Dec 2 16:09:47 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 20:09:47 -0200 Subject: SCSI to IDE References: Message-ID: <066CA08FD7FB4E1DAD460C0EBCD286BD@portajara> > Do you haappen to have the part number for that? And know of a supplier > that sells 1-off qunanitites. When I looked at the commpon suppliers in > the UK< I couldn't find any prototypiong-friemndly ARMs :-) Farnell UK > The reason I ask about the supplier is that I rememebr som years ago > when I was doing a commerical design, findin the ideal chip for the job. > I thn found that _nobody_ would sell me less than a tube quantity (which > as they wwre nearly \pounds 200 each was way over budget). This was after > I'd done all the rest of the design... Farnell UK > Actually, it's signlly harder to wire (you can't put a PLCC socket on > stripboard, for example), but certianly no real problem. You can, I do it many times. Want a photo? > You can plug the PLCC socket into wire-wrap pin strips (eitehr the proper > ones, or cut apart DIL wire-wrap sockets) and then wire-wrap to that. > Yes, you ahve an extra contact which may reduce long-time reliability, > but this is a prototype, right? Yep > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 2 16:12:06 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 17:12:06 -0500 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: <201012022156.oB2LuBBm028786@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <20101201140346.S26310@shell.lmi.net> <201012022156.oB2LuBBm028786@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 4:54 PM, John Foust wrote: > "Baby Duck Syndrome denotes the tendency for computer users to "imprint" on > the first system they learn, then judge other systems by their similarity > to that first system. (not that anyone will find this shocking, but...) My first few systems were the Commodore PET (BASIC and assembly), the COSMAC Elf (1802 assembly), the PDP-8 (assembly), the C-64 (BASIC and assembly), the Apple II (assembly), then at one job, VAX/VMS, 4BSD and Ultrix on VAX, and assembly on the 68000 and PDP-11, pretty much all absorbed at once. I'll certainly confess to being imprinted on all of those - they are still my favorite environments to play in, no matter how many new ones I run across. As an example of that, I use Intel (and AMD) architecture machines for many hours of the day, nearly 365 days a year, but they don't garner any admiration or respect from me - they are ubiquitous but not "interesting" to me. > Or, for example, why I'm still running a 1984 copy of Brief as my > text editor in a DOS window on a dual-24" quad processor PC. Fortunately I _don't_ use the Commodore screen editor or VMS EDT every day (but I _do_ use vi every day (learned in 1997) and emacs (learned in 1985) every week). I never used Brief, but around 1999-2002 I did use CRiSP, which AFAIK was heavily influenced by Brief. *quack* -ethan From pontus at update.uu.se Thu Dec 2 16:10:02 2010 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 23:10:02 +0100 Subject: Best use of a PDP-11/45 *EVER* In-Reply-To: <20101130081259.GA4135@Update.UU.SE> References: <4CF2FB80.6080104@bitsavers.org> <20101130081259.GA4135@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4CF8193A.4040201@update.uu.se> Replying to myself here. I got an email from Geert and he allowed me to forward it to the list. ---- Hi Pontus, We were pointed to the mailing list and I found your message... The DC-10 Sim was moved from Houston to Oslo in 2004. Installation and reconstruction took considerable time. Me and my coworker joined end of 2007. Two out of three old PDPs have been replaced by newer. See http://www.xs4all.nl/~geerol/FLG-talk-75dpi.pdf Last half year we have (step by step) interfaced the Sim to MSFS 2004 for visual only. The original Night Vision System has never worked again. The third PDP-11 receives the position information from the core Simulator ran by the other two machines. The 3rd PDP got a DELUA ethernet card and I've written a program that receives the data from CPU-A and kicks it onto the ethernet as UDP Broadcasts. The conversion software runs at a PC with Unix and receives the broadcasts and converts runway oriented X, Y and Z into Lat, Lon and AGL, using a table with all known runways. It also counts overflows in 24 bit X and Y and maps to 32 bit. This drops the limit of NVS: 86 NM in X and Y are current max. They flew LAX-SFO: close (+- 45 NM distance) to SFO visual orientation hopped to SFO. MS FS2004 runs with FSUIPC licensed (23 Euro) and a LUA program that sets position, lights etc. The conversion program on Unix connects to this LUA module. If you are a flightsimmer Lillestrom, Norway is worth the trip!! --- 2010-11-30 09:12, Pontus Pihlgren skrev: > On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 03:45:45PM -0800, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> On Mon, 29 Nov 2010, Jason T wrote: >> >> >>>> On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 4:32 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>>> >>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-DpcvY4aBk >>>>> >>> Any idea when the video was taken? Obviously fairly recently, given >>> the LCD panels, etc. >>> >>> >> No idea. I suspect it's close to the upload date of the video. >> It's a shame they don't have the motion base active. >> > This is from the Norwegian Cooperative Nordic Simulator Center(NSC). > They aquired the flight sim in 2007 (or so) and have been working on > restoring it. It's _awesome_ that they have gotten this far. Imagine > getting all that hardware going! It is three PDP-11 cooperating! > > I found the Zip-drive somewhat anachronistic and amusing. > > Read more here: > > http://www.dc10.no/ > > and here: > > http://www.toomuchfs.com/2mfs/showdoc.php?dsn=493 > > I'm not affiliated, but I want to take a trip to norway now :D > > /P > From doc at vaxen.net Thu Dec 2 16:16:02 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 16:16:02 -0600 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: <201012022156.oB2LuBBm028786@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <20101201140346.S26310@shell.lmi.net> <201012022156.oB2LuBBm028786@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4CF81AA2.5070702@vaxen.net> On 12/2/10 3:54 PM, John Foust wrote: > At 02:34 PM 12/2/2010, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> "Baby duck syndrome" >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> What is this? > > Let me google that for you. Maybe you'll debug something for me someday. > > "Baby Duck Syndrome denotes the tendency for computer users to"imprint" on > the first system they learn, then judge other systems by their similarity > to that first system. The result is that "users generally prefer systems > similar to those they learned on and dislike unfamiliar systems."[1] The > term may have been inspired by popular understanding of the work, > experiences, and observations ofKonrad Lorenz." > > Or, for example, why I'm still running a 1984 copy of Brief as my > text editor in a DOS window on a dual-24" quad processor PC. Huh. Then why am I running Mac OS X and doing most of my production work in VIm? My first exposure to computers was Windows 3.1, followed closely by Win95. I suppose it's no wonder that when I was introduced to AIX and then Slackware Linux, I jumped ship and never looked back. Doc From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 2 16:20:46 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 14:20:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Excessive optimization (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: References: <4CF8019A.30803@brouhaha.com> <3DAB4239B0D344C78B9E0DD9F8639B28@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <20101202140735.V63877@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 2 Dec 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I've done that "slowdown" trick in embedded code and had it optimized > down to a simple assignment. I've found that rather than tweak the > compilier, tweaking the code this much... > > for (i=0; i < 100; i++) { > a=i; > } > > (i.e. - putting something active in the loop) > ... was enough to leave the loop in and generate a few cycles for the > delay. If I'm in an environment where C and assembler are mixed (not > uncommon with microcontroller programming), a #asm/NOP construct > works, too. Some optimizers are a little too smart for you, and WILL optimze that out, ; or a=i=100; /* IF a and/or i are used later in the code and are read before the next time that they are assigned.*/ Some optimizers will even remove NOPs! requiring you to use the ALIGN keyword instead of NOPs if word boundaries are going to matter. WORD/DOUBLE boundaries was even useful (with NON-auto-optimized code) for determining the word size on a machine, and/or as one of the steps in determining processor. I always manually checked where buffers ended up in the code, and rearranged variables to make sure that REP MOVSW was dealing with aligned words (except in 5150 and 5160) BTW, when Microsoft first attempted optimization in their C compiler (4.0? 5.0?), "VOLATILE" was NOT the only "excess optimization". It was merely the one that bit me first. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 2 16:28:15 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 14:28:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: <4CF81AA2.5070702@vaxen.net> References: <20101201140346.S26310@shell.lmi.net> <201012022156.oB2LuBBm028786@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4CF81AA2.5070702@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <20101202142210.E63877@shell.lmi.net> > >>>> "Baby duck syndrome" > > "Baby Duck Syndrome denotes the tendency for computer users to"imprint" on > > the first system they learn, then judge other systems by their similarity > > to that first system. The result is that "users generally prefer systems > > similar to those they learned on and dislike unfamiliar systems."[1] The > > term may have been inspired by popular understanding of the work, > > experiences, and observations ofKonrad Lorenz." On Thu, 2 Dec 2010, Doc Shipley wrote: > Huh. Then why am I running Mac OS X and doing most of my production > work in VIm? > My first exposure to computers was Windows 3.1, followed closely by > Win95. I suppose it's no wonder that when I was introduced to AIX and > then Slackware Linux, I jumped ship and never looked back. "baby duck syndrome" is not ALWAYS the first exposure. Sometimes it is the an early (not necessarily first) ENJOYABLE exposure, or the first system that one bonded to. I do not miss "Electric Pencil". much. nor Scripsit. And I'm over my bond with Wordstar. I used Windoze "WRITE" for my PhD written exams (first one in the UC Library and Information school to use a computer for them!) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Dec 2 16:28:03 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 16:28:03 -0600 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: <4CF81AA2.5070702@vaxen.net> References: <20101201140346.S26310@shell.lmi.net> <201012022156.oB2LuBBm028786@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4CF81AA2.5070702@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <201012022230.oB2MURa9030318@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 04:16 PM 12/2/2010, Doc Shipley wrote: >On 12/2/10 3:54 PM, John Foust wrote: >>Or, for example, why I'm still running a 1984 copy of Brief as my >>text editor in a DOS window on a dual-24" quad processor PC. > > Huh. Then why am I running Mac OS X and doing most of my production work in VIm? > > My first exposure to computers was Windows 3.1, followed closely by Win95. I suppose it's no wonder that when I was introduced to AIX and then Slackware Linux, I jumped ship and never looked back. Oh, yeah. The 24" Mac with Terminal running is to the left of the two PC 24"s. The Linux box to the right - hmm, doesn't need a monitor, it just keeps running. :-) Amiga, SGI, PDP, etc. in the basement, not running. I did have fun the other day starting with a blank Virtual PC machine, loading MS-DOS 6.22, then loading Windows for Workgroups 3.11 on top of that, then installing from floppy images an app I helped write years ago, then installed video drivers to let it run at 1024x768 true-color. Ran fine. Wouldn't convert to VMware, though. Told a friend. He said the 18-year-old Windows app runs just fine under WinXP and I needn't bother. "We wrote it right," said the old geezers to each other. - John From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 2 16:32:47 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 17:32:47 -0500 Subject: Excessive optimization (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: <20101202140735.V63877@shell.lmi.net> References: <4CF8019A.30803@brouhaha.com> <3DAB4239B0D344C78B9E0DD9F8639B28@ANTONIOPC> <20101202140735.V63877@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 5:20 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Some optimizers will even remove NOPs! ?requiring you to use the ALIGN > keyword instead of NOPs if word boundaries are going to matter. Ooh... never been bitten by that one, but it sounds nasty. I haven't done any assembly on Intel processors past the 286 (and it wasn't mixed-mode), and the only other architectures I've worked with at that level that care about even-address-alignment (PDP-11 and MC68K) shouldn't hurl if some entity pulls out a 16-bit NOP, but, boy, I'd be steamed if I had to manually align some code only to find the compiler tried to "help me out". Sounds like a need for a #DWIM pragma. ;-) -ethan From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Dec 2 16:30:09 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 14:30:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: <201012022156.oB2LuBBm028786@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <20101201140346.S26310@shell.lmi.net> <201012022156.oB2LuBBm028786@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Dec 2010, John Foust wrote: > Or, for example, why I'm still running a 1984 copy of Brief as my > text editor in a DOS window on a dual-24" quad processor PC. > WordStar 3.3. ^K^D! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 2 16:58:58 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 14:58:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Excessive optimization (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: References: <4CF8019A.30803@brouhaha.com> <3DAB4239B0D344C78B9E0DD9F8639B28@ANTONIOPC> <20101202140735.V63877@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20101202145536.P65313@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 2 Dec 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Ooh... never been bitten by that one, but it sounds nasty. I haven't > done any assembly on Intel processors past the 286 (and it wasn't > mixed-mode), and the only other architectures I've worked with at that > level that care about even-address-alignment (PDP-11 and MC68K) > shouldn't hurl if some entity pulls out a 16-bit NOP, but, boy, I'd be > steamed if I had to manually align some code only to find the compiler > tried to "help me out". Well, under MS-DOS on 286 and above, there was a noticable difference in performance with alignment. 'Course the 8088, with an 8 bit ata path didn't care. > Sounds like a need for a #DWIM pragma. ;-) In addition to the "VOLATILE" keyword, the next version of the Microsoft C compiler did have a directive to specify specific areas where optimization was forbidden. Sorry, I can't remember what the keyword was. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Dec 2 17:03:16 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 15:03:16 -0800 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > Yes, C DOES permit an empty condition clause. Valid, and often used when > a programmer prefers to use the "for" rather than "while" keyword. C permits a lot of interesting things. I've occasionally interviewed programmers claiming to be C experts, and amongst my questions for them are whether the following is valid C code, what will happen when it is executed, and why: #include int main () { int i; for (i = 0; i < 14; i++) putchar (i ["Hello, world!\n"]); } So far none of the self-styled C experts I've interviewed were able to answer all three questions correctly. Note that I do not claim to be a C expert; I am just skeptical of most people who claim to be such. I don't expect a C expert to necessarily know the answer offhand, but they should be able to figure it out. If they can't, they clearly don't know C anywhere near well enough to be considered expert, as this problem is based on fundamental principles of the language. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 2 17:01:09 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 15:01:09 -0800 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: <066CA08FD7FB4E1DAD460C0EBCD286BD@portajara> References: , <066CA08FD7FB4E1DAD460C0EBCD286BD@portajara> Message-ID: <4CF7B4B5.17005.1708956@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Dec 2010 at 20:09, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > Do you haappen to have the part number for that? And know of a > > supplier that sells 1-off qunanitites. When I looked at the commpon > > suppliers in the UK< I couldn't find any prototypiong-friemndly ARMs > > :-) Again, my email seems to have been dropped, but I'm assuming that this is Tony asking about my claim of a PLCC ARM MCU: LPC1114FA44/302 LPC1114FA44/301 Don't know if it's in production yet, but the NXP datasheets show it. Apparently also the LPC2101, 2102 and 2103. With adapters being as cheap as they are, however, PLCC doesn't make much sense. I wouldn't bother with it. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Dec 2 17:05:25 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 15:05:25 -0800 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: <20101202142210.E63877@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101201140346.S26310@shell.lmi.net> <201012022156.oB2LuBBm028786@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4CF81AA2.5070702@vaxen.net> <20101202142210.E63877@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CF82635.6040806@brouhaha.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > And I'm over my bond with Wordstar. Me too. I don't think my fingers remember the key bindings any more. That will suck if I ever have to use Turbo Pascal or Turbo C again. Eric From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Dec 2 17:07:40 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 15:07:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "Dec 2, 10 03:03:16 pm" Message-ID: <201012022307.oB2N7fnE010506@floodgap.com> > > Yes, C DOES permit an empty condition clause. Valid, and often used when > > a programmer prefers to use the "for" rather than "while" keyword. > > C permits a lot of interesting things. I've occasionally interviewed > programmers claiming to be C experts, and amongst my questions for them > are whether the following is valid C code, what will happen when it is > executed, and why: > > #include > int main () > { > int i; > for (i = 0; i < 14; i++) > putchar (i ["Hello, world!\n"]); > } > > So far none of the self-styled C experts I've interviewed were able to > answer all three questions correctly. Okay, I compiled this and was shocked at the result (I didn't think it would work, honestly). So what are the answers to your questions above? I'm genuinely interested. > -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Haiku is easy/Sometimes it doesn't make sense/Refrigerator -- "KFI Haikus" - From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 2 17:14:14 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 18:14:14 -0500 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 6:03 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > C permits a lot of interesting things. ?I've occasionally interviewed > programmers claiming to be C experts, and amongst my questions for them are > whether the following is valid C code, what will happen when it is executed, > and why: > > #include > int main () > { > ?int i; > ?for (i = 0; i < 14; i++) > ? ?putchar (i ["Hello, world!\n"]); > } > > So far none of the self-styled C experts I've interviewed were able to > answer all three questions correctly. Hmm... Looking at what's there, I'd say that it wouldn't surprise me that some compilers would accept it (gcc does) and some might not, but what it's going to do is to loop 14 times, then, using i as a pointer to an array (for which the pointer values will range from 0-13), the loop will sequentially access the Nth element of that array, but since "N" happens to be the fixed address of the string "Hello, World!\n", the effective calculation will be to sequentially point to each character in the string (0+start address, 1+start address...) and feed the "char" at that address to putchar() which will print it to stdout. So... it will iterate across the static string one char at a time, but by doing the pointer math "backwards" from the traditional technique (i.e., a fixed index to a moving array pointer). The end result is "Hello, World\n" sent to stdout. > Note that I do not claim to be a C expert; I am just skeptical of most > people who claim to be such. ?I don't expect a C expert to necessarily know > the answer offhand, but they should be able to figure it out. If they can't, > they clearly don't know C anywhere near well enough to be considered expert, > as this problem is based on fundamental principles of the language. I do represent myself in the workplace as a C expert, so hopefully I passed the audition. -ethan From g at kurico.com Thu Dec 2 17:17:01 2010 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 17:17:01 -0600 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CF828ED.4090902@kurico.com> On 12/2/10 5:03 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: > > Yes, C DOES permit an empty condition clause. Valid, and often used > when > > a programmer prefers to use the "for" rather than "while" keyword. > > C permits a lot of interesting things. I've occasionally interviewed > programmers claiming to be C experts, and amongst my questions for > them are whether the following is valid C code, what will happen when > it is executed, and why: > > #include > int main () > { > int i; > for (i = 0; i < 14; i++) > putchar (i ["Hello, world!\n"]); > } > > So far none of the self-styled C experts I've interviewed were able to > answer all three questions correctly. > > Note that I do not claim to be a C expert; I am just skeptical of most > people who claim to be such. I don't expect a C expert to necessarily > know the answer offhand, but they should be able to figure it out. If > they can't, they clearly don't know C anywhere near well enough to be > considered expert, as this problem is based on fundamental principles > of the language. > > Eric > It prints "Hello, world!" and a newline (no quotes). It works because C compilers treat array subscripts as simple pointer arithmetic, so i["He...\n"] is the same as (i * sizeof(char)) + "He...\n" (the string is a converted to a pointer internally). From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 2 17:17:56 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 16:17:56 -0700 Subject: Excessive optimization (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: <1291324333.29855.11.camel@ryoko> References: <1291324333.29855.11.camel@ryoko> Message-ID: In article <1291324333.29855.11.camel at ryoko>, Philip Pemberton writes: > [...] If the condition is omitted, it is > assumed to be TRUE. This is the part I'm trying to find in the standard. I'd never seen someone write an infinite loop by *omitting* the condition on a for loop. I've seen it written as while (1); or while (1) {}. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From chd at chdickman.com Thu Dec 2 17:26:01 2010 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 18:26:01 -0500 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 6:14 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Looking at what's there, I'd say that it wouldn't surprise me that > some compilers would accept it (gcc does) and some might not, but what > it's going to do is to loop 14 times, then, using i as a pointer to an > array (for which the pointer values will range from 0-13), the loop > will sequentially access the Nth element of that array, but since "N" > happens to be the fixed address of the string "Hello, World!\n", the > effective calculation will be to sequentially point to each character > in the string (0+start address, 1+start address...) and feed the > "char" at that address to putchar() which will print it to stdout. > > So... it will iterate across the static string one char at a time, but > by doing the pointer math "backwards" from the traditional technique > (i.e., a fixed index to a moving array pointer). ?The end result is > "Hello, World\n" sent to stdout. That's what I figured it was going to do, (it wouldn't be very interesting if the answer was it would SIGSEGV) but I don't know that I understand why the index doesn't get multiplied by the size of the array type before being added to the pointer. If p is int p[] then *(p + sizeof(int)*n) is the same as p[n], right? -chuck ps. certainly not a C expert. From schoedel at kw.igs.net Thu Dec 2 17:26:23 2010 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (schoedel at kw.igs.net) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 18:26:23 -0500 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <201012022307.oB2N7fnE010506@floodgap.com> References: <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at Message-ID: <20101202232049.M71300@kw.igs.net> > > for (i = 0; i < 14; i++) > > putchar (i ["Hello, world!\n"]); > Okay, I compiled this and was shocked at the result (I didn't think it > would work, honestly). So what are the answers to your questions above? To keep this slightly on-topic, here's the answer from the 1975 _C Reference Manual_, via dmr's home page: The expression "E1[E2]" is identical (by definition) to "*((E1) + (E2))". -- Kevin Schoedel VA3TCS From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Dec 2 17:27:22 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 18:27:22 -0500 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: <561EAE3F30CE4597BD7DA5D6153C377F@portajara> References: <561EAE3F30CE4597BD7DA5D6153C377F@portajara> Message-ID: > ? Strange. I **though** "old" PCs in UK were as cheap as water. But I still > don't believe someone reading this won't give you as a gift an old P3 or > even a P4. If I were near you I'd surely do that. Not for nothing...but it took me about three long minutes of Google to find some very recently placed ads for free Pentium or better computers all over the UK. -- Will From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Dec 2 17:31:54 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 15:31:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <20101202232049.M71300@kw.igs.net> from "schoedel@kw.igs.net" at "Dec 2, 10 06:26:23 pm" Message-ID: <201012022331.oB2NVsBX015398@floodgap.com> > > > for (i = 0; i < 14; i++) > > > putchar (i ["Hello, world!\n"]); > > > Okay, I compiled this and was shocked at the result (I didn't think it > > would work, honestly). So what are the answers to your questions above? > > To keep this slightly on-topic, here's the answer from the 1975 _C Reference > Manual_, via dmr's home page: > > The expression "E1[E2]" is identical (by definition) to "*((E1) + (E2))". That is ... grotesque. I'll file under "things I learned today" -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. -- Hunter S. Thompson ------- From schoedel at kw.igs.net Thu Dec 2 17:31:44 2010 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (schoedel at kw.igs.net) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 18:31:44 -0500 Subject: Excessive optimization (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: References: <1291324333.29855.11.camel@ryoko> Message-ID: <20101202232843.M13155@kw.igs.net> > > [...] If the condition is omitted, it is > > assumed to be TRUE. > This is the part I'm trying to find in the standard. I'd never seen > someone write an infinite loop by *omitting* the condition on a for > loop. I've seen it written as while (1); or while (1) {}. In the 1975 _C Reference Manual_ it looks like this: Any or all of the expressions may be dropped. A missing expression-2 makes the implied while clause equivalent to "while( 1 )"; other missing expressions are simply dropped from the expansion above. C99 phrases it, in 6.8.5.3, as: An omitted expression-2 is replaced by a nonzero constant. -- Kevin Schoedel VA3TCS From chd at chdickman.com Thu Dec 2 17:33:50 2010 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 18:33:50 -0500 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <4CF828ED.4090902@kurico.com> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <4CF828ED.4090902@kurico.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 6:17 PM, George Currie wrote: > It works because C compilers treat array subscripts as simple pointer > arithmetic, so i["He...\n"] is the same as (i * sizeof(char)) + "He...\n" > (the string is a converted to a pointer internally). > Shouldn't it be (i + sizeof(int)*"He...\n") ? From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Dec 2 17:34:54 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 15:34:54 -0800 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: <201012022156.oB2LuBBm028786@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <20101201140346.S26310@shell.lmi.net> <201012022156.oB2LuBBm028786@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: At 3:54 PM -0600 12/2/10, John Foust wrote: >Or, for example, why I'm still running a 1984 copy of Brief as my >text editor in a DOS window on a dual-24" quad processor PC. Guess that explains why one of my main Text Editors is Joe. The keybindings are the same as Wordstar and the Borland language editors. Then there is the little matter of my inability to give up ClarisDraw. Or my fondness for the Commodore 64 and BASIC (for several years my only computer was a VIC-20). It doesn't explain my love of the Mac, or VMS. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 2 17:35:56 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 15:35:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20101202151325.T65761@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 2 Dec 2010, Eric Smith wrote: > Note that I do not claim to be a C expert; I am just skeptical of most > people who claim to be such. I don't expect a C expert to necessarily > know the answer offhand, but they should be able to figure it out. If > they can't, they clearly don't know C anywhere near well enough to be > considered expert, as this problem is based on fundamental principles of > the language. I'm a rank beginner at C ( <30 years) I would be worried about the ego of anybody who claims to be expert. Of course your example would work. I'm assuming that it was created by mistake, not a deliberate attempt to print 14 characters from pseudo-random places in memory. When you shoot yourself in the foot, C has no "gun-control". What would an excessive optimization compiler change it to? A[i++] = i++; Many people think that they know what that will do. They may even be right for THEIR compiler, but I don't think that even ANSI C is a rigid enough specification to pin down the sequence of certain actions. When I taught, I TRIED to get my students to begin to understand that C will do exactly what you asked for, disunirregardless of what you WANTED. I also explained to my students that one could optimize for speed, optimize for object code size, optimize for source code size, optimize for obfuscation (obfuscated C contest, anyone?), or optimize for readability. All class assignments were to optimized for readability and thoroughly commented. I suggested to them that they should NEVER optimize for speed or size, until AFTER they had debugged a version optimized for readability, and even then, seriously consider including the "readable" code as a comment in their final optimized version. Very little of what I do/did requires much, if any, speed. So I am very much NOT an expert on optimization. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 2 17:41:43 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 18:41:43 -0500 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <20101202232049.M71300@kw.igs.net> References: <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <201012022307.oB2N7fnE010506@floodgap.com> <20101202232049.M71300@kw.igs.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 6:26 PM, wrote: > To keep this slightly on-topic, here's the answer from the 1975 _C Reference > Manual_, via dmr's home page: > > ?The expression "E1[E2]" is identical (by definition) to "*((E1) + (E2))". Very concisely put. We're just used to E1 being large and fixed and E2 being small and variable, but there's no lexical requirement of such. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 2 17:44:12 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 15:44:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <20101202151325.T65761@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <20101202151325.T65761@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20101202154132.V65761@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 2 Dec 2010, I wrote: > I'm assuming that it was created by mistake, not a deliberate attempt to > print 14 characters from pseudo-random places in memory. Sorry, I blew it. I got tangled up in the sizeof(i), and PROVED my lack of expertise. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Dec 2 17:48:03 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 15:48:03 -0800 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <4CF828ED.4090902@kurico.com> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <4CF828ED.4090902@kurico.com> Message-ID: <4CF83033.4020401@brouhaha.com> George Currie wrote: > It works because C compilers treat array subscripts as simple pointer arithmetic, It's not that C compilers have chosen to do that, but the C language that *requires* it. My little program doesn't work by accident, but is in fact a fully standard-conformant program. > so i["He...\n"] is the same as (i * sizeof(char)) + "He...\n" (the string is a converted to a pointer internally). Very close. You omitted the pointer dereference, and the multiplication by sizeof(char) is incorrect, though it expresses your intent. When you write "Somestring" + i The quoted literal is an array of elements of type char, which becomes a pointer to char. The language requires that addition of integers and pointers to someType to have an implicit scaling by sizeof(someType). The multiplication by sizeof(char) thus happens "under the hood". For a character, where sizeof(char) is 1, your explicit multiplication won't cause a problem, but for any type with sizeof(type) > 1, the extra multiplication would cause a problem. In C, the expression a[b] is essentially a shorthand for *(a+b) Since addition is commutative (even between pointers and integers), that is equivalent to *(b+a) which is, of course, equivalent to b[a] In the specific example, i["He...\n"] is equivalent to *(i + "He...\n") or *("He...\n" + i) or "He...\n"[i] Eric From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 2 17:49:22 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 18:49:22 -0500 Subject: Excessive optimization (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: References: <1291324333.29855.11.camel@ryoko> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 6:17 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article <1291324333.29855.11.camel at ryoko>, > ? ?Philip Pemberton writes: > >> [...] If the condition is omitted, it is >> assumed to be TRUE. > > This is the part I'm trying to find in the standard. ?I'd never seen > someone write an infinite loop by *omitting* the condition on a for > loop. I think you are imagining it backwards. A for loop continues *until* the condition is true. (i > 10 or some such). A _missing_ conditional test is always false, so the loop test will never satisfy, so the loop will never exit on its own (which is why a break or a processor reset is needed to break out of it). >?I've seen it written as while (1); or while (1) {}. Those are correct as written, but they are a different keyword with a different sense on the test. A while loop continues _as long as_ the test is true. 1 is never 0, so it's always true. -ethan From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Dec 2 17:50:16 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 15:50:16 -0800 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <4CF828ED.4090902@kurico.com> Message-ID: <4CF830B8.7070806@brouhaha.com> Charles Dickman wrote: > Shouldn't it be (i + sizeof(int)*"He...\n") ? No. There shouldn't be a multiplication by sizeof(anything), because C does the scaling automatically, but the automatic scaling has to be of the size of the target of the pointer, which is char, not by the size of the index. The automatic scaling is such that indices 0, 1, 2, etc. always refer to successive elements of the target type, and not to successive bytes. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Dec 2 17:54:39 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 15:54:39 -0800 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CF831BF.2080209@brouhaha.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Looking at what's there, I'd say that it wouldn't surprise me that > some compilers would accept it (gcc does) and some might not, It's legal, standard-conformant C code, so any compiler that doesn't deal with it is broken. > I do represent myself in the workplace as a C expert, so hopefully I passed the audition. While not 100% correct, your answer is a lot better than those from most of the "experts" I've interviewed, and close enough that I would consider it to pass. My purpose was to hire good programmers, not C experts, but I held anyone claiming to be an expert to a higher standard than those who don't. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 2 17:57:53 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 15:57:53 -0800 Subject: Excessive optimization (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: <20101202232843.M13155@kw.igs.net> References: , , <20101202232843.M13155@kw.igs.net> Message-ID: <4CF7C201.24174.1A4799A@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Dec 2010 at 18:31, schoedel at kw.igs.net wrote: > In the 1975 _C Reference Manual_ it looks like this: > Any or all of the expressions may be dropped. A missing expression-2 > makes the implied while clause equivalent to "while( 1 )"; other > missing expressions are simply dropped from the expansion above. > > C99 phrases it, in 6.8.5.3, as: > An omitted expression-2 is replaced by a nonzero constant. In particular the null expression-2 construct is useful when a loop contians a non-null initializer and an increment, but the termination condition isn't known until the inside of the loop. For example: for ( j = 0, i = 0;;i++) { j = thisfunc(i,j); if ( somefunc(j)) break; else dosomethingelse(j); } On the other hand, there's no requirement that the initialization, test and increment expressions be remotely related. C's for() is comparatively straightforward. Other languages (e.g. COBOL PERFORM) have much more varied iteration statements. Was it Dennis Ritchie who ran the C language list on usenet sometime around 1981 or so? He'd post little puzzles that asked the question "What does this code do?". There were several problems for which the answer was "I don't know--it depends on the implementation". --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 2 18:01:50 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 16:01:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Excessive optimization (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: References: <1291324333.29855.11.camel@ryoko> Message-ID: <20101202155610.E65761@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 2 Dec 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I think you are imagining it backwards. A for loop continues *until* > the condition is true. (i > 10 or some such). A _missing_ conditional > test is always false, so the loop test will never satisfy, so the loop > will never exit on its own (which is why a break or a processor reset > is needed to break out of it). Close. A for loop will continue *until* the condition is NOT true. for (i=0; i<10; i++) { /*something*/ . . . } on the first 10 passes, the condition is true, as i is, indeed, less than 10. > >?I've seen it written as while (1); or while (1) {}. > Those are correct as written, but they are a different keyword with a > different sense on the test. A while loop continues _as long as_ the > test is true. 1 is never 0, so it's always true. I have been told many times (someday I'll learn never to believe what I am told!) that some compilers actually preprocess for's into while's or vice-versa, before compilation. It is certainly trivial to replace either one with the other in almost all cases. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 2 18:02:59 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 16:02:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <4CF831BF.2080209@brouhaha.com> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <4CF831BF.2080209@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20101202160244.W65761@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 2 Dec 2010, Eric Smith wrote: > It's legal, standard-conformant C code, so any compiler that doesn't > deal with it is broken. aren't most? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 2 18:03:30 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 19:03:30 -0500 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <4CF831BF.2080209@brouhaha.com> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <4CF831BF.2080209@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 6:54 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Looking at what's there, I'd say that it wouldn't surprise me that >> some compilers would accept it (gcc does) and some might not, > > It's legal, standard-conformant C code, so any compiler that doesn't deal > with it is broken. I got my start with Whitesmith's C for VMS (pre-ANSI). I can't recall details 25 years on, but ISTR we had an occasional issue where code that compiled fine on a 4BSD box could choke Whitesmith's (and that the pain points were pointer-math-related). It's made me shy to claim that "of course it will work anywhere" when it comes to C. Compiler writers, like all other programmers, can suffer from a lack of vision about what's allowed vs what's required vs what happens to have been used as a test case during development. That's one reason for ongoing compiler development - nobody's perfect, especially not at Rev 0.1. -ethan From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Dec 2 18:04:00 2010 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 19:04:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: QIC backup tapes available Message-ID: I've got to clear out some various backup tapes I've been keeping for several years now. For starters, I have a bunch of QW5122F and QIC-3020 taumat format tape carts available. pay for shipping and anything else you want to add, and they are yours. Reply off list please. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 2 18:04:50 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 16:04:50 -0800 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: References: from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Dec 1, 10 08:00:44 pm, Message-ID: <4CF7C3A2.2410.1AAD79B@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Dec 2010 at 19:54, Tony Duell wrote: > Which normalyl cost more than the chips to put on them (at least in > the UK). They're getting cheaper, at least in the import market. Apparently the Chinese have noticed that there's a market for these things. For example, the adapters from Futurlec are less than USD$1 Q1: http://futurlec.com/SMD_Adapters.shtml Header pins (with machine-pin socket-compatible ends) are getting similarly cheap. --Chuck From g at kurico.com Thu Dec 2 18:07:17 2010 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 18:07:17 -0600 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <4CF83033.4020401@brouhaha.com> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <4CF828ED.4090902@kurico.com> <4CF83033.4020401@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CF834B5.5030406@kurico.com> On 12/2/10 5:48 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > George Currie wrote: > > It works because C compilers treat array subscripts as simple > pointer arithmetic, > > It's not that C compilers have chosen to do that, but the C language > that *requires* it. My little program doesn't work by accident, but > is in fact a fully standard-conformant program. > > > so i["He...\n"] is the same as (i * sizeof(char)) + "He...\n" (the > string is a converted to a pointer internally). > > Very close. You omitted the pointer dereference, and the > multiplication by sizeof(char) is incorrect, though it expresses your > intent. When you write > "Somestring" + i > The quoted literal is an array of elements of type char, which becomes > a pointer to char. The language requires that addition of integers > and pointers to someType to have an implicit scaling by > sizeof(someType). The multiplication by sizeof(char) thus happens > "under the hood". For a character, where sizeof(char) is 1, your > explicit multiplication won't cause a problem, but for any type with > sizeof(type) > 1, the extra multiplication would cause a problem. > > In C, the expression > a[b] > is essentially a shorthand for > *(a+b) > Since addition is commutative (even between pointers and integers), > that is equivalent to > *(b+a) > which is, of course, equivalent to > b[a] > > In the specific example, > i["He...\n"] > is equivalent to > *(i + "He...\n") > or > *("He...\n" + i) > or > "He...\n"[i] > > Eric > I didn't mean for it to be syntactically correct, I was only giving the basic gist of why it works the way it does (hence why no dereference and explicitly stating sizeof(char)). I'm also aware that this isn't undefined behavior or a side effect, I didn't say "might/can/likely treat" or "some/many/most C compilers" :) Unlike some of the other folks responding, I personally don't find this heinous at all, as a matter of fact I think it's a great example of a language where once you understand some of the basic underpinnings, it becomes a fairly straight forward matter to suss out "odd" constructs like the above. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 2 18:07:20 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 19:07:20 -0500 Subject: Excessive optimization (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: <20101202155610.E65761@shell.lmi.net> References: <1291324333.29855.11.camel@ryoko> <20101202155610.E65761@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 7:01 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 2 Dec 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I think you are imagining it backwards. ?A for loop continues *until* >> the condition is true. > > Close. > A for loop will continue *until* the condition is NOT true. Yeah... Sorry. You are correct. I got flipped around one too many times in my head trying to phrase that while trying to shut down and get out the door. That'll learn me to check my logic before pressing 'send'. -ethan From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Dec 2 18:24:43 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 16:24:43 -0800 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <20101202151325.T65761@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <20101202151325.T65761@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CF838CB.1020206@brouhaha.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > Of course your example would work. > I'm assuming that it was created by mistake, not a deliberate attempt to > print 14 characters from pseudo-random places in memory. > When you shoot yourself in the foot, C has no "gun-control". > > What would an excessive optimization compiler change it to? > By definition, if it is "excessive" optimization, it might do anything! > A[i++] = i++; > Many people think that they know what that will do. They may even be > right for THEIR compiler, but I don't think that even ANSI C is a rigid > enough specification to pin down the sequence of certain actions. > > I can't quote chapter and verse, but I'm fairly sure the standard will say that the result of that assignment is undefined. In pre-standard C, it is also undefined, but for a different reason. Many programmers would say "I would never write code like that", but I've seen statements like that creep into code as a result of cut-and-paste or global-search-and-replace operations that weren't carefully checked. It's also quite possible when writing complex expressions to come up with things like that which are not necessarily obvious to casual inspection. It is good that many compilers will detect these things and generate warnings. When I have the power to do so, I generally treat warnings from the compiler as fatal errors requiring a fix, and not acceptable in released code. Eric From doug at stillhq.com Thu Dec 2 18:27:56 2010 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 11:27:56 +1100 Subject: Excessive optimization (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CF8398C.2090208@stillhq.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > > C permits, and damn near ENCOURAGES, "puzzle code" > If you want a giggle - try to follow comp.lang.forth for a couple of weeks - Forth has changed sooooo much in the last 40 years that examples written in many older books simply won't work - I suspect the decline started when ANSI got involved..... Bring back FIG forth I say !!! (Duck) From g at kurico.com Thu Dec 2 18:38:02 2010 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 18:38:02 -0600 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <4CF838CB.1020206@brouhaha.com> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <20101202151325.T65761@shell.lmi.net> <4CF838CB.1020206@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CF83BEA.6010900@kurico.com> On 12/2/10 6:24 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > A[i++] = i++; > I can't quote chapter and verse, but I'm fairly sure the standard will > say that the result of that assignment is undefined. > > In pre-standard C, it is also undefined, but for a different reason. > > Many programmers would say "I would never write code like that", but > I've seen statements like that creep into code as a result of > cut-and-paste or global-search-and-replace operations that weren't > carefully checked. It's also quite possible when writing complex > expressions to come up with things like that which are not necessarily > obvious to casual inspection. It is good that many compilers will > detect these things and generate warnings. When I have the power to > do so, I generally treat warnings from the compiler as fatal errors > requiring a fix, and not acceptable in released code. One "common" scenario occurs when using macros: in some header file: #define FOO(x) x++ in some source file A[i++] = FOO(i); so someone casually looking at the code won't realize that the macro has a side effect. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 2 18:44:22 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 17:44:22 -0700 Subject: Excessive optimization (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: <4CF8398C.2090208@stillhq.com> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF8398C.2090208@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <4CF83D66.2050500@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/2/2010 5:27 PM, Doug Jackson wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: >> >> C permits, and damn near ENCOURAGES, "puzzle code" > > If you want a giggle - try to follow comp.lang.forth for a couple of > weeks - Forth has changed sooooo much in the last 40 years that examples > written in many older books simply won't work - I suspect the decline > started when ANSI got involved..... > > Bring back FIG forth I say !!! With the last bunch of APPLE I's out recently, 6502 FIG FORTH may make a comeback. I liked FIG forth. While I don't know if you can get machine code, I think you still can find the assembler listing on-line. > (Duck) Did BYTE's book threaded langauges? have any useful information in it? Ben. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Dec 2 18:44:45 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 00:44:45 +0000 Subject: Excessive optimization (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: References: <4CF8019A.30803@brouhaha.com> <3DAB4239B0D344C78B9E0DD9F8639B28@ANTONIOPC> <20101202140735.V63877@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1291337085.1742.16.camel@ryoko> On Thu, 2010-12-02 at 17:32 -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Ooh... never been bitten by that one, but it sounds nasty. I haven't > done any assembly on Intel processors past the 286 (and it wasn't > mixed-mode), I've had some fun doing Protected Mode on Bochs, in 80386 mode. Bit too masochistic for my liking, though... Thankfully the Motorola 68K is a bit easier to deal with (I've been learning that while debugging the 3B1 emulator)... My current love affair is with 'soft' (FPGA-implemented) CPUs. I've been playing with Lattice's "LatticeMico32" CPU core on an Altera FPGA board (and an Enterpoint Drigmorn2 Xilinx devboard, just for good measure) and the assembly language for that is like a dream come true. It's almost completely orthogonal, opcodes do what their names say... you could probably use it to teach a computer architecture class. The GNU assembler is a piece of cack, but a few hours spent with Flex, Bison and GCC should produce a workable assembler. Tack on a modification of an old C preprocessor and hey, you've got ifdefs and macros! Yeah, I'm a RISC fanboy (as evidenced by the MIPS books on my bookshelf). From memory, LM32 has 64 instruction codes (several of which are unused) versus the several thousand on the 32-bit X86/MMX/SSE/SIMD/3DNOW platform. I have nothing but the utmost respect for any programmer good enough to write (or maintain) a *good* compiler or operating system for the X86 platform.... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 2 18:48:39 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 16:48:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <4CF838CB.1020206@brouhaha.com> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <20101202151325.T65761@shell.lmi.net> <4CF838CB.1020206@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20101202163901.Y65761@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 2 Dec 2010, Eric Smith wrote: > > A[i++] = i++; > I can't quote chapter and verse, but I'm fairly sure the standard will > say that the result of that assignment is undefined. C can be pretty loose about letting you do such. > Many programmers would say "I would never write code like that", but > I've seen statements like that creep into code as a result of > cut-and-paste or global-search-and-replace operations that weren't > carefully checked. It's also quite possible when writing complex > expressions to come up with things like that which are not necessarily > obvious to casual inspection. It is good that many compilers will > detect these things and generate warnings. When I have the power to do > so, I generally treat warnings from the compiler as fatal errors > requiring a fix, and not acceptable in released code. absolutely. At the bare minimum, understand what is being pointed out. It's hard, but necessary, to get beginning students to realize that an assignment is not complete just because the output has the right number. #define SIX 1+5 #define NINE 8+1 printf("What you get when you multiply SIX by NINE: %d", (SIX * NINE) ); "The mice will be furious." -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 2 18:55:41 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 17:55:41 -0700 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <20101202163901.Y65761@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <20101202151325.T65761@shell.lmi.net> <4CF838CB.1020206@brouhaha.com> <20101202163901.Y65761@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CF8400D.9020908@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/2/2010 5:48 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > absolutely. At the bare minimum, understand what is being pointed out. > It's hard, but necessary, to get beginning students to realize that an > assignment is not complete just because the output has the right number. > > > #define SIX 1+5 > #define NINE 8+1 > printf("What you get when you multiply SIX by NINE: %d", (SIX * NINE) ); > > "The mice will be furious." * Chuckle * But that only works for large values of 1 ... :-) > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Dec 2 19:01:12 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 01:01:12 +0000 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <20101202163901.Y65761@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <20101202151325.T65761@shell.lmi.net> <4CF838CB.1020206@brouhaha.com> <20101202163901.Y65761@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1291338072.1742.21.camel@ryoko> On Thu, 2010-12-02 at 16:48 -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: > #define SIX 1+5 > #define NINE 8+1 > printf("What you get when you multiply SIX by NINE: %d", (SIX * NINE) ); Which is why you should either bracket arithmetic operations in macros, or declare them as 'const' variables: const unsigned int SIX = 1+5; #define NINE (8+1) And your example gives the result 1 + (5*8) + 1 = (5*8)+2 = 42, because of operator precedence rules (multiply first, then add). What you probably wanted was 54, which is what you'd get if you fixed the constants. Whether this is a bug depends on what the code is meant to do. If it's supposed to give you the answer for 1+(5*8)+1, then it's fine (though I'd call it bad code because there's a significant potential for confusion). If you wanted to know what 6*9 was, then you have a problem... > "The mice will be furious." Um, what? -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From chd at chdickman.com Thu Dec 2 19:12:22 2010 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 20:12:22 -0500 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <4CF830B8.7070806@brouhaha.com> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <4CF828ED.4090902@kurico.com> <4CF830B8.7070806@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 6:50 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Charles Dickman wrote: >> Shouldn't it be (i + sizeof(int)*"He...\n") ? > > No. ?There shouldn't be a multiplication by sizeof(anything), because C does > the scaling automatically, but the automatic scaling has to be of the size > of the target of the pointer, which is char, not by the size of the index. > ?The automatic scaling is such that indices 0, 1, 2, etc. always refer to > successive elements of the target type, and not to successive bytes. > > Eric > > The target size is determined by the declaration of putchar? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 2 19:13:52 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 18:13:52 -0700 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <1291338072.1742.21.camel@ryoko> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <20101202151325.T65761@shell.lmi.net> <4CF838CB.1020206@brouhaha.com> <20101202163901.Y65761@shell.lmi.net> <1291338072.1742.21.camel@ryoko> Message-ID: <4CF84450.3060305@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/2/2010 6:01 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: problem... > >> "The mice will be furious." > > Um, what? Read up on the fictional computer 'deep thought'. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 2 19:15:00 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 17:15:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <1291338072.1742.21.camel@ryoko> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <20101202151325.T65761@shell.lmi.net> <4CF838CB.1020206@brouhaha.com> <20101202163901.Y65761@shell.lmi.net> <1291338072.1742.21.camel@ryoko> Message-ID: <20101202170717.V65761@shell.lmi.net> > > #define SIX 1+5 > > #define NINE 8+1 > > printf("What you get when you multiply SIX by NINE: %d", (SIX * NINE) ); On Fri, 3 Dec 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Which is why you should either bracket arithmetic operations in macros, > or declare them as 'const' variables: > const unsigned int SIX = 1+5; > #define NINE (8+1) > Whether this is a bug depends on what the code is meant to do. If it's > supposed to give you the answer for 1+(5*8)+1, then it's fine (though > I'd call it bad code because there's a significant potential for > confusion). If you wanted to know what 6*9 was, then you have a > problem... Just need to know what the QUESTION is. > > "The mice will be furious." > Um, what? The crash on earth of the Golgafrincham B ark was a horrible cock-up, and ruined the project. The last iteration of the search for the question (when Arthur Dent tried to teach a neanderthal to play scrabble) was "Whatdoyougetwhenyoumultiplysixbynine" If that is still a "Um, what?": Douglas Adams "Restaurant At The End Of The Universe" (of "Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy") -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rborsuk at colourfull.com Thu Dec 2 19:38:03 2010 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 20:38:03 -0500 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: <4CF7B4B5.17005.1708956@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <066CA08FD7FB4E1DAD460C0EBCD286BD@portajara> <4CF7B4B5.17005.1708956@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Dec 2, 2010, at 6:01 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2 Dec 2010 at 20:09, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >>> Do you haappen to have the part number for that? And know of a >>> supplier that sells 1-off qunanitites. When I looked at the commpon >>> suppliers in the UK< I couldn't find any prototypiong-friemndly ARMs >>> :-) > > Again, my email seems to have been dropped, but I'm assuming that > this is Tony asking about my claim of a PLCC ARM MCU: > > LPC1114FA44/302 > LPC1114FA44/301 > > Don't know if it's in production yet, but the NXP datasheets show it. > > Apparently also the LPC2101, 2102 and 2103. > > With adapters being as cheap as they are, however, PLCC doesn't make > much sense. I wouldn't bother with it. > > --Chuck > mbed NXP LPC1768 Arm cortex in a dip package. http://mbed.org/ price not too bad and easy to use. Rob Robert Borsuk rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations http://www.colourfull.com From lynchaj at yahoo.com Thu Dec 2 19:40:41 2010 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 20:40:41 -0500 Subject: SCSI to IDE Message-ID: SCSI to IDE Joachim Thiemann joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Sat Nov 27 09:07:00 CST 2010 * Previous message: SCSI to IDE * Next message: SCSI to IDE * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] _____ On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 11:48, joe lobocki > wrote: > So what is our option? I have seen SCSI to IDE adapters around, but they go > up into the $100's to $200's, say you have a minimum 10 machines, that > leaves you somewhere between $1,000 and $2,000 total, before the disk or > devices. If we could design a simple SCSI to IDE interface, we could be set > for a good long while on storage for these devices for a decent amount of > time. There are all sorts of adapters to IDE, there is CF to IDE, SD to > IDE, > SD to CF which could be placed in a CF to IDE adapter if need be, i'm sure > one could also rig up a USB drive to SCSI if one tried, but I could be > wrong. > > I have previously proposed here a SCSI-to-SD interface; I've only done preliminary brainstorming on it, but think it should not be too hard. The SD card interface is very simple, both from a logic and electrical point of view: if you don't care much about speed it can be done with SPI. (the speed should be sufficient to keep up with 68k Mac, Amiga and Atari) All logic can probably be done in a single AVR or even PIC chip, if you run that at 3.3V, the only additional hardware is the SCSI level shifters. I do not know enough about low-level SCSI to start designing this yet, and since I gave away my Amiga 3000 and classic Macs my interest in this project has all but disappeared... still it'd be kinda fun, I think. Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem -----REPLY----- There was some room left on my SCSI to IDE converter board design so I added an SD socket. The SD circuit is very simple and is able to work with some left over inputs and outputs from the UART. I think this design would allow for a SCSI to SD converter as you mentioned. The original intent was for SCSI to IDE converter but would also allow for SCSI to CF via an IDE to CF adapter. After a closer reading of the Z53C80 datasheet, I think it is possible to implement both the polling mode and a pseudo-DMA mode SCSI. The circuitry seems pretty straight forward and I think an 8 MHz Z80 should be able to get some fairly decent transfer speeds. http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?22906-SCSI-1-to-from- IDE-drive-converter Andrew Lynch From lproven at gmail.com Thu Dec 2 20:46:49 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 02:46:49 +0000 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: <20101202142210.E63877@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101201140346.S26310@shell.lmi.net> <201012022156.oB2LuBBm028786@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4CF81AA2.5070702@vaxen.net> <20101202142210.E63877@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 10:28 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > "baby duck syndrome" is not ALWAYS the first exposure. ?Sometimes it is > the an early (not necessarily first) ENJOYABLE exposure, or the first > system that one bonded to. > I do not miss "Electric Pencil". ?much. > nor Scripsit. > And I'm over my bond with Wordstar. > I used Windoze "WRITE" for my PhD written exams (first one in the UC > Library and Information school to use a computer for them!) Oh my yes. Back in the day, I was somewhere between /au fait/ and expert with WordStar (4 & 5, sure, but also 1512 and 2000), DisplayWrite, MultiMate, MS Word 3 & 4 for DOS and various others, not to mention WordPerfect, which swept them all before it before Windows swept it away in turn - meaning Samna Am? at first. Plus a bunch of Mac WPs, two Sinclair Spectrum ones (Tasword and The Last Word), Acorn View, various incarnations of LocoScript and more I've doubtless forgotten. But by the early 1990s, Windows and CUA replaced the lot. CUA-compliant editors ran on DOS, Windows, Mac and now GNOME and KDE. Now I think in CUA keystrokes and it's an effort to recall any other ones. I *really* don't miss them. Not at all. No, not even WordPerfect. Never liked it much, just had to support it. Too many function-key combinations. (Aside: I have recently, for a laugh, got MS-Word 5.5 for DOS running under DOSemu under Linux. And 6.0 for that matter, but 5.5 is a free download from MS. I actually could work in that, still - because 5.5 is the version that went CUA.) FTAOD: CUA = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_User_Access What I'd /really/ like as a writing tool would be a CUA mode for EMACS. I find its native UI bizarre and incomprehensible - if I have to edit text at a Unix prompt, I use Vi, badly - but reading comments like Neal Stephenson's in /In The Beginning Was The Command Line/ make me think it might be the ultimate writers' tool. I'm damned if I'm learning another new set of keybindings [a] at my age and [b] in a world where CUA has killed off everything else and now rules the GUI world. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Dec 2 20:49:36 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 02:49:36 +0000 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 7:17 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > It does not have a BSD kernel underneath. ?It uses the Mach Microkernel. It > has a BSD layer on top of that. Why won't this one die? OS X is a Unix. All the Unix-compatibility stuff comes from a honking great monolithic lump of code straight out of the BSD kernel which runs right inside the Mach kernel. Xnu comprises far more BSD code than Mach code. Yes, it's Mach, but the BSD stuff is right there as a peer, it's not some subsidiary layer. Large chunks of the BSD /userland/ could be considered subsidiary, yes, but there's BSD right there in the kernel, executing in ring 0. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Dec 2 20:51:36 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 18:51:36 -0800 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <4CF828ED.4090902@kurico.com> <4CF830B8.7070806@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <72fba4b57fcb9ff07e321f3b274d53f0@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Dec 2, at 5:12 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: > On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 6:50 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> Charles Dickman wrote: >>> Shouldn't it be (i + sizeof(int)*"He...\n") ? >> >> No. ?There shouldn't be a multiplication by sizeof(anything), because >> C does >> the scaling automatically, but the automatic scaling has to be of the >> size >> of the target of the pointer, which is char, not by the size of the >> index. >> ?The automatic scaling is such that indices 0, 1, 2, etc. always >> refer to >> successive elements of the target type, and not to successive bytes. >> >> Eric > The target size is determined by the declaration of putchar? > No, as has been explained: a[b] == *(a+b); the 'target size' and hence scaling factor for the integer operand of the addition (be it a or b) is determined by the base type of the pointer operand. Problems may be anticipated if the two operands are not constituted from one integer type (or promotable to integer) and one pointer type. In C, indexing with "[]" is really just a syntactic nicety for the sake of convention, it is not a functional addition to the language. (I haven't done any C programming to speak of in over 20 years (1988). I don't think I ever claimed to be a C expert, but I think I can say people used to treat me as such. I will claim that I answered Eric's questions correctly when he first posed them.) -- Way back then, a lowly undergrad learning C came up against a baffling problem. The program would compile and run but produce inexplicable results. The instructor couldn't figure it out, so a bunch of grad students and research assistants were called in, me amongst them. We stood around and scratched our heads and none of us experts could see the error. We cognoscenti left, the student did some more debugging and eventually reported back to us with the explanation. Perhaps it is more or less obvious when presented in stark, pared-down form like this, but what is wrong with the following C program, or what problem might be anticipated? (Arguably, it's not really a C language problem): main() { Read(); } Read() { blah; blah; } From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 2 21:02:55 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 20:02:55 -0700 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <72fba4b57fcb9ff07e321f3b274d53f0@cs.ubc.ca> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <4CF828ED.4090902@kurico.com> <4CF830B8.7070806@brouhaha.com> <72fba4b57fcb9ff07e321f3b274d53f0@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4CF85DDF.8040001@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/2/2010 7:51 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > main() > { > Read(); > } > > Read() > { > blah; > blah; > } > Well I am stumped, other case sensitvity for Read and the OS read routine, when linked. From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Dec 2 21:03:25 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 21:03:25 -0600 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 5:03 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: > #include > int main () > { > ?int i; > ?for (i = 0; i < 14; i++) > ? ?putchar (i ["Hello, world!\n"]); > } That's awesome. I didn't see at first that the loop pointer was being used as an array. For some reason it was invisible to me, I guess because I wasn't expecting it. But after seeing that, it became somewhat more obvious to me. :-) This reminds me of a problem I once ran into on AIX. I'm not sure if the latest AIX implementation still has this issue, but it would be easy to find out. I was working on a rather large machine scheduling system for brass foundries. I had been in dbx for several hours trying to track down a particularly nasty bug when I discovered that a rather large calculation had a denominator of 0. I stepped through the line of code anyway expecting an error and instead got a plausible value. So I wrote this quick test program: #include int main() { int x, y, z; x = 1; y = 0; z = x / y; printf("%d\n", z); } Can anyone guess what the output was? 15. Apparently, according to AIX, 1/0 = 15. At the time, I had access to an HPUX box, so I ran the same program over there. It crashed. The error I got was initially puzzling, but after a few minutes was the key to understanding what was happening over on AIX. The error over on HPUX was "floating point exception". My guess is that most C programmers wouldn't know that the divide operator in C takes floats as parameters. The compiler does an implicit conversion from into to float on x and y, does the divide on the floats (hence floating point exception), then converts the value back to an int for storage in z. It looks like when this implicit conversion is done (on AIX) for the 0, instead of getting official floating point zero, you instead get a close approximation. This approximation divided into 1 gets you a number that rounds to 15. (2/0 yields 30) And since dividing by zero is undefined, you get a crazy answer. So while technically correct, IBM really screws over the programmer here. In my opinion, floating point exception is the correct behavior. And it's what solaris and linux (and probably windows) do also. I was happy when we abandoned AIX. brian From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Dec 2 21:13:24 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 19:13:24 -0800 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <4CF85DDF.8040001@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <4CF828ED.4090902@kurico.com> <4CF830B8.7070806@brouhaha.com> <72fba4b57fcb9ff07e321f3b274d53f0@cs.ubc.ca> <4CF85DDF.8040001@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 2010 Dec 2, at 7:02 PM, ben wrote: > On 12/2/2010 7:51 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> main() >> { >> Read(); >> } >> >> Read() >> { >> blah; >> blah; >> } > > Well I am stumped, other case sensitvity for Read > and the OS read routine, when linked. You're not stumped, that was exactly the problem. The linker decided to prioritise the Unix system call over the user's routine, without complaint or advisory. In the larger context of all the surrounding code, all us experts who just as a matter of unconscious habit avoided naming routines like that, didn't see the problem. It did always annoy me, that such generic words as "open", "close", "read", "write" were sucked up by the Unix OS, the OS writers having had first pickings from the global symbol name space. From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Dec 2 21:16:59 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 21:16:59 -0600 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <4CF85DDF.8040001@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <4CF828ED.4090902@kurico.com> <4CF830B8.7070806@brouhaha.com> <72fba4b57fcb9ff07e321f3b274d53f0@cs.ubc.ca> <4CF85DDF.8040001@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 9:02 PM, ben wrote: > On 12/2/2010 7:51 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> main() >> { >> Read(); >> } >> >> Read() >> { >> blah; >> blah; >> } >> > > Well I am stumped, other case sensitvity for Read > and the OS read routine, when linked. I'm stumped as well. I'm not helped by the fact that I can't remember the specifics of the C standard library. Is the read function exactly called Read? If that's the case, maybe this is a forward declaration problem where the compiler picks the standard library function over the one in the code since it hasn't found the symbol yet? When I was working on my CS degree, about a half dozen of us were stumped by this one: int somefunction() { while(somevalue == true); { printf("test\n"); } } Like the one from brent, it's a little more obvious without all the extra code around the problem. The issue is that no matter what we put in the criteria, we'd get either exactly one "test", or the while loop would get stuck forever printing nothing. I finally did spot it after about a hour of staring at it. Maybe we would all have found it faster if it hadn't been 3 in the morning with us all pulling all-nighters to get the assignment done. brian From blstuart at bellsouth.net Thu Dec 2 21:16:34 2010 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 22:16:34 -0500 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <20101202163901.Y65761@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > #define SIX 1+5 > #define NINE 8+1 > printf("What you get when you multiply SIX by NINE: %d", (SIX * NINE) ); > > "The mice will be furious." I love it! I've got to remember that one. BLS From g at kurico.com Thu Dec 2 21:17:52 2010 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 21:17:52 -0600 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <4CF828ED.4090902@kurico.com> <4CF830B8.7070806@brouhaha.com> <72fba4b57fcb9ff07e321f3b274d53f0@cs.ubc.ca> <4CF85DDF.8040001@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4CF86160.2040007@kurico.com> On 12/2/10 9:13 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2010 Dec 2, at 7:02 PM, ben wrote: >> On 12/2/2010 7:51 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> >>> main() >>> { >>> Read(); >>> } >>> >>> Read() >>> { >>> blah; >>> blah; >>> } >> >> Well I am stumped, other case sensitvity for Read >> and the OS read routine, when linked. > > You're not stumped, that was exactly the problem. The linker decided > to prioritise the Unix system call over the user's routine, without > complaint or advisory. In the larger context of all the surrounding > code, all us experts who just as a matter of unconscious habit avoided > naming routines like that, didn't see the problem. The linker was case insensitive !?! From blstuart at bellsouth.net Thu Dec 2 21:28:44 2010 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 22:28:44 -0500 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > #include > int main () > { > int i; > for (i = 0; i < 14; i++) > putchar (i ["Hello, world!\n"]); > } That's interesting as a puzzle, but I've seen the converse: "0123456789abcdef"[i] in the wild. I'm pretty sure it was in some of Ken's code. BLS From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Dec 2 21:30:35 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 19:30:35 -0800 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <4CF828ED.4090902@kurico.com> <4CF830B8.7070806@brouhaha.com> <72fba4b57fcb9ff07e321f3b274d53f0@cs.ubc.ca> <4CF85DDF.8040001@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 2010 Dec 2, at 7:16 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > When I was working on my CS degree, about a half dozen of us were > stumped by this one: > > int somefunction() > { > > while(somevalue == true); > { > printf("test\n"); > } > } > > > Like the one from brent, it's a little more obvious without all the > extra code around the problem. The issue is that no matter what we > put in the criteria, we'd get either exactly one "test", or the while > loop would get stuck forever printing nothing. I finally did spot it > after about a hour of staring at it. Maybe we would all have found it > faster if it hadn't been 3 in the morning with us all pulling > all-nighters to get the assignment done. > Those annoying semi-colons. (Plus I hope you had "true" defined appropriately.) From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 2 21:35:49 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 19:35:49 -0800 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: References: , <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com>, Message-ID: <4CF7F515.798.26BFE81@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Dec 2010 at 21:03, Brian Lanning wrote: > My guess is that most C programmers wouldn't know that the divide > operator in C takes floats as parameters. The compiler does an > implicit conversion from into to float on x and y, does the divide on > the floats (hence floating point exception), then converts the value > back to an int for storage in z. It's certainly the case that many architectures lack a fixed-point divide--or a floating poit divide (see, for example, the i860 or Cray- 1 with the floating reciprocal approximation), but conversion to float then division, then conversion back to int is an implementation decision rather than a C requirement. This can lead to some interesting issues. On the CDC Cyber 70/170, an integer divide was usually done by performing an unnormalized floating divide and recovering the low-order result (also unnormalized). This worked well, but an integer was 60 bits, and the divide operated only on 48 of them. So you could get some very odd answers with large numbers. Moral: Always be aware of implementatin details. One particularly ugly implementation detail I recall from Lattice/Microsoft 16-bit C was the division of a long int (32 bits) by a long int. The run-time employed a very slow shift-and-subtract (paper-and-pencil long division) routine to perform the task. On the other hand, if one was expecting a 16-bit quotient and had a 16-bit divisor, a 32-by-16 bit could be performed by calling a library routine and was *much* faster. --Chuck From blstuart at bellsouth.net Thu Dec 2 21:34:14 2010 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 22:34:14 -0500 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > You're not stumped, that was exactly the problem. The linker decided to > prioritise the Unix system call over the user's routine, without > complaint or advisory. In the larger context of all the surrounding > code, all us experts who just as a matter of unconscious habit avoided > naming routines like that, didn't see the problem. I thought that was broken behavior. Isn't it defined behavior that the standard libraries are linked after any objects specified in the ld command? And code isn't used from a library if the symbol already has a definition from an earlier object file. In fact, I've used that property more than once to override a function in a library. BLS From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Dec 2 21:37:01 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 19:37:01 -0800 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <4CF828ED.4090902@kurico.com> <4CF830B8.7070806@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CF865DD.6070405@brouhaha.com> Charles Dickman wrote: > The target size is determined by the declaration of putchar? The target of the pointer. Since it's a char *, the target is a char, so the scaling is by sizeof(char). From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Dec 2 21:39:08 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 19:39:08 -0800 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <72fba4b57fcb9ff07e321f3b274d53f0@cs.ubc.ca> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <4CF828ED.4090902@kurico.com> <4CF830B8.7070806@brouhaha.com> <72fba4b57fcb9ff07e321f3b274d53f0@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4CF8665C.30609@brouhaha.com> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Perhaps it is more or less obvious when presented in stark, pared-down > form like this, but what is wrong with the following C program, or > what problem might be anticipated? (Arguably, it's not really a C > language problem): > > main() > { > Read(); > } > > Read() > { > blah; > blah; > } > Is blah the name of a function? If so, I've definitely encountered this problem before. GCC will warn about it. Eric From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Dec 2 21:38:48 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 19:38:48 -0800 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <4CF86160.2040007@kurico.com> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <4CF828ED.4090902@kurico.com> <4CF830B8.7070806@brouhaha.com> <72fba4b57fcb9ff07e321f3b274d53f0@cs.ubc.ca> <4CF85DDF.8040001@jetnet.ab.ca> <4CF86160.2040007@kurico.com> Message-ID: <4deeea6164456b6d88b904f8af84d49e@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Dec 2, at 7:17 PM, George Currie wrote: > On 12/2/10 9:13 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> On 2010 Dec 2, at 7:02 PM, ben wrote: >>> On 12/2/2010 7:51 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>> >>>> main() >>>> { >>>> Read(); >>>> } >>>> >>>> Read() >>>> { >>>> blah; >>>> blah; >>>> } >>> >>> Well I am stumped, other case sensitvity for Read >>> and the OS read routine, when linked. >> >> You're not stumped, that was exactly the problem. The linker decided >> to prioritise the Unix system call over the user's routine, without >> complaint or advisory. In the larger context of all the surrounding >> code, all us experts who just as a matter of unconscious habit >> avoided naming routines like that, didn't see the problem. > The linker was case insensitive !?! Yes, it was (insensitive). I think it was on Apollo workstations IIRC, ca. 1987. I don't know whether things are any better in standard C environs these days or not. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 2 21:40:30 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 19:40:30 -0800 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: <20101201140346.S26310@shell.lmi.net>, <20101202142210.E63877@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: <4CF7F62E.22682.2704A3C@cclist.sydex.com> On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 10:28 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > "baby duck syndrome" is not ALWAYS the first exposure. ? > Sometimes it is the an early (not necessarily first) ENJOYABLE > exposure, or the first > system that one bonded to. ...and then you grow up. Not many modern systems are programmed using a keypunch... --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Thu Dec 2 21:44:18 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 03:44:18 +0000 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 7:54 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > You keep on telling us that things are different between Brazil and the > States, and what is common in one place is not common in the other. Whcih > I happily accept. All I can say is that the UK is different again. Or at > least I've enver found any form of Pentium PC for free. Oh, come *on*, Tony. You live about a 45min cycle ride from me. You are not in some parallel universe! Just last year I gave 14 Pentium-class machines in a single transaction to a chap on Freecycle, and I was /very/ glad to do so, because otherwise they'd have been off to the recycling centre. It is virtually impossible to *give* anything as old as a Pentium-class machine away these days. The last few individual machines I've given to Freecyclers were Cyrix 6x86-powered, in the region of 200-300MHz. I gave them away on Freecycle because no charity will accept machines that old. In the summer, I donated 4 PCs to the collection scheme at the Zeitgeist pub in Vauxhall - a few circa-1500MHz AMD AthlonXP boxes and a 2.6GHz Pentium-4-class Celeron. These were too low-specification for ComputerAid to be interested in them. No, you don't often see free Pentium machines any more, because they're "skipware" - too old to be of any interest to any ordinary user these days. The current class of free kit most commonly going is stuff like ~2GHz Pentium 4 boxes and low-end Athlon64 machines. Occasionally you'll get late-model Pentium III machines but most of them disappeared by 3-4y ago. I though the reason you limped along on your PC-AT with a 486 in it was that it was the latest-model PC you could get for which you had full schematics and so on. Machines 2 orders of magnitude show up in skips beside the road all the time. Try your local recycling centre - you'll probably find piles of them, you just need to get to 'em before they're left out in the rain. (10sec on Google) Try Townmead - they take electricals. Townmead Road, Re-use and Recycling Centre, Townmead Road (off Mortlake Road), Kew, TW9 4EL. Telephone 020 8876 3281 for more details. If you /want/ a newer PC that's not been scrapped, I have a dual Athlon MP 1600+ machine in the garage. It worked, it just very occasionally hard-reset for no apparent reason. It's been extensively cannibalised - now it's just a motherboard in a case - but if you want it it's yours. I can probably find you graphics, sound, hard disks, optical drive, PSU and ancillary cabling. I also have a dual Pentium-II 400 that I have been using for some server testing, but I'd consider it to be too old for use as a desktop machine any more. You /can/ access the Web on a Pentium II but it's not terribly pleasant. It's in a ginormous full-tower Gateway case I was planning to strip out and try to eBay off to some casemodder for phase-change cooling or something -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Dec 2 21:45:51 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 03:45:51 +0000 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 3:44 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > not terribly pleasant. It's in a ginormous full-tower Gateway case I > was planning to strip out and try to eBay off to some casemodder for > phase-change cooling or something Oops! Closed the message in the wrong window. Anyway, I was going to say, if you want the case, you're welcome to it. If you wanted both the machines, and were, say, prepared to take them in exchange for attempting the repairs we were discussing in private email, then I might be able to arrange delivery. I know neither of us drives. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Dec 2 21:47:27 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 19:47:27 -0800 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <4CF8665C.30609@brouhaha.com> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <4CF828ED.4090902@kurico.com> <4CF830B8.7070806@brouhaha.com> <72fba4b57fcb9ff07e321f3b274d53f0@cs.ubc.ca> <4CF8665C.30609@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4ab53bf373e2ebe836e851147da38f07@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Dec 2, at 7:39 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Brent Hilpert wrote: >> Perhaps it is more or less obvious when presented in stark, >> pared-down form like this, but what is wrong with the following C >> program, or what problem might be anticipated? (Arguably, it's not >> really a C language problem): >> >> main() >> { >> Read(); >> } >> >> Read() >> { >> blah; >> blah; >> } > > Is blah the name of a function? If so, I've definitely encountered > this problem before. GCC will warn about it. > Sorry, my mislead, I guess I should have just put in "..." instead of "blah"s. See other responses. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Dec 2 21:53:05 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 19:53:05 -0800 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <4CF7F515.798.26BFE81@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com>, <4CF7F515.798.26BFE81@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2010 Dec 2, at 7:35 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2 Dec 2010 at 21:03, Brian Lanning wrote: > >> My guess is that most C programmers wouldn't know that the divide >> operator in C takes floats as parameters. The compiler does an >> implicit conversion from into to float on x and y, does the divide on >> the floats (hence floating point exception), then converts the value >> back to an int for storage in z. > > It's certainly the case that many architectures lack a fixed-point > divide--or a floating poit divide (see, for example, the i860 or Cray- > 1 with the floating reciprocal approximation), but conversion to > float then division, then conversion back to int is an implementation > decision rather than a C requirement. > > This can lead to some interesting issues. On the CDC Cyber 70/170, > an integer divide was usually done by performing an unnormalized > floating divide and recovering the low-order result (also > unnormalized). This worked well, but an integer was 60 bits, and the > divide operated only on 48 of them. So you could get some very odd > answers with large numbers. > > Moral: Always be aware of implementatin details. The notion of integer divide is pretty well defined. I'd be pretty annoyed if I specced two ints, did a divide and didn't get back the 'standard' result. I don't have a C ref at hand, but in C at least, I think it would be stretching acceptable claims of language flexibility or non-specification for compiler implementors to be taking leniency here. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 2 21:56:04 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 20:56:04 -0700 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <4ab53bf373e2ebe836e851147da38f07@cs.ubc.ca> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <4CF828ED.4090902@kurico.com> <4CF830B8.7070806@brouhaha.com> <72fba4b57fcb9ff07e321f3b274d53f0@cs.ubc.ca> <4CF8665C.30609@brouhaha.com> <4ab53bf373e2ebe836e851147da38f07@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4CF86A54.8020305@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/2/2010 8:47 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2010 Dec 2, at 7:39 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> Brent Hilpert wrote: >>> Perhaps it is more or less obvious when presented in stark, >>> pared-down form like this, but what is wrong with the following C >>> program, or what problem might be anticipated? (Arguably, it's not >>> really a C language problem): >>> >>> main() >>> { >>> Read(); >>> } >>> >>> Read() >>> { >>> blah; >>> blah; >>> } >> >> Is blah the name of a function? If so, I've definitely encountered >> this problem before. GCC will warn about it. >> > Sorry, my mislead, I guess I should have just put in "..." instead of > "blah"s. See other responses. > umm ... #define blah write("Blah Humbug\n",3) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 2 22:04:50 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 23:04:50 -0500 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <20101202163901.Y65761@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <20101202151325.T65761@shell.lmi.net> <4CF838CB.1020206@brouhaha.com> <20101202163901.Y65761@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 7:48 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 2 Dec 2010, Eric Smith wrote: >> > A[i++] = i++; >> I can't quote chapter and verse, but I'm fairly sure the standard will >> say that the result of that assignment is undefined. > > C can be pretty loose about letting you do such. There are many things that folks commonly do that are officially undefined... like strlen(NULL) (that returned 0 on an NCR box but segfaulted a SPARC - the NCR guys tried to claim it proved the Sun was broken, but I had to point out that it's undefined). >> Many programmers would say "I would never write code like that", but >> I've seen statements like that creep into code as a result of >> cut-and-paste or global-search-and-replace operations that weren't >> carefully checked. Indeed. > #define SIX 1+5 > #define NINE 8+1 > printf("What you get when you multiply SIX by NINE: %d", (SIX * NINE) ); Very nice. > "The mice will be furious." LOL -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Dec 2 22:09:34 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 20:09:34 -0800 Subject: AT&T 3B1 keyboard protocol In-Reply-To: <4CF79D2D.30702@philpem.me.uk> References: <4CF79D2D.30702@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4CF86D7E.80509@bitsavers.org> On 12/2/10 5:20 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Does anyone have any details on the control protocol for the keyboard on the AT&T 3B1? > > A command list and/or scan code list would be most useful... or even actual driver source code :) > kbd.h is in DEV351_6.IMD on bitsavers. hopefully someone with a running machine can just send you the file out of /include/sys a version of the driver is in http://unixpc.taronga.com/ftp.uu.net/systems/att7300/kernel/nkbd.cpio.Z there are probably other things on taronga that would be of use (like the Xinu port) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Dec 2 22:11:52 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 20:11:52 -0800 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4f1edf647ef8657b3c41ade68c783aa0@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Dec 2, at 7:34 PM, blstuart at bellsouth.net wrote: >> You're not stumped, that was exactly the problem. The linker decided >> to >> prioritise the Unix system call over the user's routine, without >> complaint or advisory. In the larger context of all the surrounding >> code, all us experts who just as a matter of unconscious habit avoided >> naming routines like that, didn't see the problem. > > I thought that was broken behavior. Isn't it defined behavior that > the standard libraries are linked after any objects specified in the > ld command? And code isn't used from a library if the symbol already > has a definition from an earlier object file. In fact, I've used that > property more than once to override a function in a library. I'd agree that's the common expectation, defined behaviour is another matter. To my recollection, such linking and naming issues are not specified in the C language, or at least were not back then. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 2 22:15:26 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 20:15:26 -0800 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4CF7FE5E.15166.29044C2@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Dec 2010 at 19:30, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Those annoying semi-colons. (Plus I hope you had "true" defined > appropriately.) There are lots of those... main() { /* program illustrating use of pointers */ int a, b, c; int *p; a = 10; b = 2; p = &b; /* p points to b */ c = a/*p; /* divide 10/2 */ ; /* null statements are legal in C */ printf( "%d divided by %d is %d\n", a, b, c); } Compile and run: D:\tmp>cl /AS x.c Microsoft (R) C/C++ Optimizing Compiler Version 8.00c Copyright (c) Microsoft Corp 1984-1993. All rights reserved. x.c Microsoft (R) Segmented Executable Linker Version 5.60.339 Dec 5 1994 Copyright (C) Microsoft Corp 1984-1993. All rights reserved. Object Modules [.obj]: x.obj Run File [x.exe]: "x.exe" /noi List File [nul.map]: NUL Libraries [.lib]: Definitions File [nul.def]: ; D:\tmp>x 10 divided by 2 is 10 Digraphs are nasty. --Chuck From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Dec 2 22:15:42 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 22:15:42 -0600 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <20101202151325.T65761@shell.lmi.net> <4CF838CB.1020206@brouhaha.com> <20101202163901.Y65761@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 10:04 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > There are many things that folks commonly do that are officially > undefined... like strlen(NULL) ?(that returned 0 on an NCR box but > segfaulted a SPARC - the NCR guys tried to claim it proved the Sun was > broken, but I had to point out that it's undefined). Years ago, I worked at the institute for simulation and training in orlando. They had a warfare simulator that ran on a collection of computers over the network. My project was to port the system from c++ on dos (borland iirc) to solaris. The programmer had a lot of code that passed null pointers to printf("%s\n",...) instead of a (valid) pointer to a null string, that is, a pointer to a null. Worked on dos. Crashed on unix. brian From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Dec 2 22:20:11 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 02:20:11 -0200 Subject: SCSI to IDE References: Message-ID: <4883EC841E8C4E009317ACE5E486CFC2@portajara> >If you /want/ a newer PC that's not been scrapped, I have a dual >Athlon MP 1600+ machine in the garage. It worked, it just very >occasionally hard-reset for no apparent reason. It's been extensively >cannibalised - now it's just a motherboard in a case - but if you want >it it's yours. I can probably find you graphics, sound, hard disks, >optical drive, PSU and ancillary cabling. That is SUCH a machine! With linux, I doubt Tony will have something against that :oD Lets' start a campaign: "A modern PC for Tony. Tony using Linux" :oD From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 2 22:30:56 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 23:30:56 -0500 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <97EA8326-4900-4937-A64B-13D78F78F501@neurotica.com> On Dec 2, 2010, at 10:28 PM, blstuart at bellsouth.net wrote: >> #include >> int main () >> { >> int i; >> for (i = 0; i < 14; i++) >> putchar (i ["Hello, world!\n"]); >> } > > That's interesting as a puzzle, but I've seen the converse: > > "0123456789abcdef"[i] > > in the wild. I'm pretty sure it was in some of Ken's code. I've done that a few times. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 2 22:35:47 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 20:35:47 -0800 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: References: , <4CF7F515.798.26BFE81@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4CF80323.16401.2A2E550@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Dec 2010 at 19:53, Brent Hilpert wrote: > The notion of integer divide is pretty well defined. I'd be pretty > annoyed if I specced two ints, did a divide and didn't get back the > 'standard' result. I don't have a C ref at hand, but in C at least, I > think it would be stretching acceptable claims of language flexibility > or non-specification for compiler implementors to be taking leniency > here. Oh, I agree, but K&R is silent on exceptions. Does any C detect integer overflow (i.e. subtracting a large positive number from a negative and getting a positive number back)? While some hardware can trap this behavior, there's a lot that can't. There may be a status flag set somewhere, but testing takes cycles and is generally not performed. Source: main() { /* program demonstrating integer subtraction */ int a, b, c; a = -31000; b = 12345; c = a - b; printf( "%d minus %d is %d\n", a, b, c); } Compile and run: D:\tmp>cl /AS x.c Microsoft (R) C/C++ Optimizing Compiler Version 8.00c Copyright (c) Microsoft Corp 1984-1993. All rights reserved. x.c Microsoft (R) Segmented Executable Linker Version 5.60.339 Dec 5 1994 Copyright (C) Microsoft Corp 1984-1993. All rights reserved. Object Modules [.obj]: x.obj Run File [x.exe]: "x.exe" /noi List File [nul.map]: NUL Libraries [.lib]: Definitions File [nul.def]: ; D:\tmp>x -31000 minus 12345 is 22191 --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 2 22:42:10 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 21:42:10 -0700 Subject: L6: Bell Telephone Laboratories Low-Level Linked List Language (film) Message-ID: In 1966, Ken Knowlton created a 16-minute black and white film showing animated algorithms for the L6 language. Does anyone know if this film is online anywhere or if the film has been archived anywhere (CHM perhaps?). Bell Labs used to have a historian, but since Bell Labs no longer exists, I have no idea who to contact anymore about this sort of thing. Does anyone know? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 2 22:46:58 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 23:46:58 -0500 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <4CF7FE5E.15166.29044C2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CF7FE5E.15166.29044C2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 11:15 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > ? ?c = a/*p; ? ?/* divide 10/2 */ > ? ? ? ?; ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? /* null statements are legal in C */ > > Digraphs are nasty. There was a good example of that sort of thing and an intentionally obsoleted feature of C interacting badly in a VAX-C tutorial... It was something like... main() { int i; i=-1; printf("i is %d\n", i); } ... it worked *if* you loaded the program with the debugger, otherwise you got a seemingly large and random value for i. The trick is the "=-" was originally (like c. 1972) the syntax for what's now "-=" and that took precedence over the seemingly obvious interpretation of "i = -1" (note the spaces). The reason it worked in the debugger was that as part of the debugging process, the program loader would clear out one page of the stack frame with zeros so you could see autovariables populate the stack area, so the result was a zero in memory "minus equals" one, or negative one (-1). Later versions of VAX-C (and other C compilers) complain about non-initialized autovariables and obsolete language features (like =- and =+), but the compiler at the time did something odd but quasi-legal and did it quietly. -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 2 22:56:37 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 21:56:37 -0700 Subject: Excessive optimization (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: References: <1291324333.29855.11.camel@ryoko> Message-ID: In article , Ethan Dicks writes: > I think you are imagining it backwards. A for loop continues *until* > the condition is true. Huh? A for loop is just a while loop with an initialization chunk and a per-loop chunk at the end of the while block. What's weird is that for allows the condition to be omitted and have an implied "true" put in its place, but while doesn't allow the condition to be omitted. for (start; condition; incr) block; is equivalent to start; while (condition) { block; incr; } ...but you knew that. Just that what you're saying above makes it sound like a do...while loop, because of your use of the word "until", but its not a do while, its a while. The loop block is not executed at all if the condition is false, unlike a do/while loop which always executes the block once. But I'm sure you knew that, too. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Dec 2 23:15:57 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 21:15:57 -0800 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <4CF80323.16401.2A2E550@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CF7F515.798.26BFE81@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CF80323.16401.2A2E550@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2010 Dec 2, at 8:35 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2 Dec 2010 at 19:53, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> The notion of integer divide is pretty well defined. I'd be pretty >> annoyed if I specced two ints, did a divide and didn't get back the >> 'standard' result. I don't have a C ref at hand, but in C at least, I >> think it would be stretching acceptable claims of language flexibility >> or non-specification for compiler implementors to be taking leniency >> here. > > Oh, I agree, but K&R is silent on exceptions. ..right, I was forgetting the OP's original problem was for / by 0, so an exception case. I was just thinking/conjecturing that if the implementors were doing inherent floating point conversions, they better have confirmed that the integer divide result would be correct for all (legal) combinations of operand values, with no (say) off-by-1 situations or what-have-you. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 2 23:44:31 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 21:44:31 -0800 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: References: , <4CF80323.16401.2A2E550@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4CF8133F.17827.2E1D560@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Dec 2010 at 21:15, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I was just thinking/conjecturing that if the implementors were doing > inherent floating point conversions, they better have confirmed that > the integer divide result would be correct for all (legal) > combinations of operand values, with no (say) off-by-1 situations or > what-have-you. I suspect that in the original example the system had a special representation for NAN or infinity in the case of DBZ and the generated code didn't test for it. --Chuck From schoedel at kw.igs.net Fri Dec 3 00:02:39 2010 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 01:02:39 -0500 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: At 9:03 pm -0600 2010/12/02, Brian Lanning wrote: >[...] The error over on HPUX was "floating point exception". > >My guess is that most C programmers wouldn't know that the divide >operator in C takes floats as parameters. The compiler does an >implicit conversion from into to float on x and y, does the divide on >the floats (hence floating point exception), then converts the value >back to an int for storage in z. No. The reason you got a "floating point exception" is that Unix traditionally lumps integer arithmetic fault together with floating point faults under one signal, SIGFPE. $ cat t.c int a, b; int main() { return a / b; } $ cc t.c; ./a.out Floating exception(coredump) $ otool -tv -p _main ./a.out ./a.out: (__TEXT,__text) section _main: 0000000100000f20 pushq %rbp 0000000100000f21 movq %rsp,%rbp 0000000100000f24 leaq 0x00000139(%rip),%rcx 0000000100000f2b leaq 0x0000012e(%rip),%rax 0000000100000f32 movl (%rax),%edx 0000000100000f34 movl %edx,%eax 0000000100000f36 sarl $0x1f,%edx 0000000100000f39 idivl (%rcx) 0000000100000f3b leave 0000000100000f3c ret At 10:28 pm -0500 2010/12/02, blstuart at bellsouth.net wrote: >That's interesting as a puzzle, but I've seen the converse: >"0123456789abcdef"[i] >in the wild. I'm pretty sure it was in some of Ken's code. Also, "TF"[!b] At 8:35 pm -0800 2010/12/02, Chuck Guzis wrote: >Does any C detect integer overflow (i.e. subtracting a large positive >number from a negative and getting a positive number back)? The current standard allows operations on that standard signed (but not unsigned) integer types to fail on overflow, but I'm not aware of any implementation that does that. There is no standard way to detect overflow. -- Kevin Schoedel VA3TCS From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 3 01:10:40 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 23:10:40 -0800 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <97EA8326-4900-4937-A64B-13D78F78F501@neurotica.com> References: , <97EA8326-4900-4937-A64B-13D78F78F501@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CF82770.29939.330B499@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Dec 2010 at 23:30, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Dec 2, 2010, at 10:28 PM, blstuart at bellsouth.net wrote: > > That's interesting as a puzzle, but I've seen the converse: > > > > "0123456789abcdef"[i] > > > > in the wild. I'm pretty sure it was in some of Ken's code. > > I've done that a few times. > How about: #define s "0123456789' int i; for (i = 0; i < 10; i++) s[i] = 'x'; printf( "%s\n", s); A lot of compilers will accept this without a whimper. What you get on output depends on whether or not the compiler "pools" literal constants--and whether or not the literal is stored in a memory segment with read-only permissions. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 3 01:38:48 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 23:38:48 -0800 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <4CF82770.29939.330B499@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <97EA8326-4900-4937-A64B-13D78F78F501@neurotica.com>, <4CF82770.29939.330B499@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CF82E08.28501.34A75FB@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Dec 2010 at 23:10, Chuck Guzis wrote: > How about: > > #define s "0123456789' Make that #define s "0123456789" --Chuck From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri Dec 3 01:46:27 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 23:46:27 -0800 Subject: Fixing small plastic... things Message-ID: <4CF8A053.7060801@mail.msu.edu> Hi all -- Got myself a Friden 1162 desktop calculator. This is from about 1968-69 and has a neat-O keen CRT display and uses a magnetorestrictive delay line memory. Kinda cool. Mine has taken a fair amount of abuse over the years, and is currently not working properly -- at the moment it powers up (with nominal voltages, etc) and displays a normal display of all zeros, but as soon as a key is depressed, the screen goes blank and never returns. The 1162 has a rather interesting keyboard encoding mechanism (you can see a decent overview of the device & the keyboard mechanism here: http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/friden1162.html) Close investigation of the keyboard mechanism on my specimen reveals that a few of the plastic "fingers" that are positioned on the rods that move the magnets to/away from the reed switches have snapped off. I have a close up picture of what the fingers are supposed to look like at: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/friden/normal-finger.JPG And a picture of one of the broken ones at: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/friden/broken-finger.JPG The broken fingers no longer make contact with the mechanism, and so a couple of the reed switches do not get activated properly. I'm guessing that this is at least part of the reason the machine is acting the way that it is (that it's getting unexpected scancodes from the keyboard and going off into the weeds...) I need to figure out how to "recap" these fingers. I don't have a lot of experience repairing plastic stuff like this, anyone have any suggestions? Thanks! Josh From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Dec 3 01:47:09 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 08:47:09 +0100 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <201012022331.oB2NVsBX015398@floodgap.com> References: <20101202232049.M71300@kw.igs.net> <201012022331.oB2NVsBX015398@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20101203074708.GA526@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Dec 02, 2010 at 03:31:54PM -0800, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > The expression "E1[E2]" is identical (by definition) to "*((E1) + (E2))". > > That is ... grotesque. I'll file under "things I learned today" No, it's quite logical, we are quite used to the fact that E2[E1] means E2+E1, why not the reverse :D Its just that we are taught that x in [x] is the index in an array. Neat :) (I also file this under new things learned) /P From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Dec 3 03:48:06 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 10:48:06 +0100 (CET) Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Dec 2010, Tony Duell wrote: >> A Pentium III - which you can find in trashcans - runs it with linux. >> And linux is free :) > > You keep on telling us that things are different between Brazil and the > States, and what is common in one place is not common in the other. Whcih > I happily accept. All I can say is that the UK is different again. Or at > least I've enver found any form of Pentium PC for free. The latest PC > that I've been given was a battered 386SX that, I have to admit, I took > apart for useful bits. Now I can't really believe you, there can't be such a big difference within the EU. Don't you have e.g. a university around or someone who works there? I could give you several Pentium-4 or AMD Athlon PCs for free if they were near you as they are old by today's standard. Since I don't collect that kind of stuff, I will junk them as soon as something more modern falls out of the "system". BTW these systems are all in the several-GHz range and fast enough, just not on the top of the edge and over three years old. > monitors, and the like, I do not have spare PC/AT or PS/2 keyboards, PC > mice or VGA monitors. Oh, boxes full of them... and nobody wants the (modern) CRT monitors. Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Dec 3 04:32:05 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 11:32:05 +0100 (CET) Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Dec 2010, Kevin Schoedel wrote: > Also, > "TF"[!b] This is a great example! Now let's guess why this works, but not "FT"[b] Christian From bqt at softjar.se Thu Dec 2 09:56:08 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 16:56:08 +0100 Subject: TECO... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CF7C198.8000500@softjar.se> Coming a bit late into this, but anyway... On 11/18/10 08:39, "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > >Antonio wrote: > >>>> >>>Having (many years ago) recovered data from a borked RT-11 >>>> >>>filesystem, I can certainly confirm that. >>>> >>> >>> >>However, I don't understand how you can use TECO to actually >>> >>repair an RT-11 filesystem. For that purpose, I can only see >>> >>SIPP as being able to >>> >>change or repair >>> >> >> >I'm pretty sure I didn't say "repair"; I merely recovered data. >> > >> >I don't recall exactly what went wrong, but essentially I went >> >in with TECO and found the right blocks for the various source >> >files I needed, loaded them into TECO and wrote them out >> >to floppy. Needed some minor tidy up as I recall but that's about all. >> > >> > > OK!! I understand completely!! If anyone else who is interested does not > understand, please ask some questions. > > If the ASCII data in question was not in the first buffer, than I assume > that > something like the TECO command: > $$ > was what you used to find the start of the file which you had lost. Well, yes and no. What you actually do is: ERfilename$_string$$EWnewfile$HPW$EC$EX$$ (assuming that all the data you are interested in are in the buffer, otherwise include P commands in there to the appropriate amount, before the HPW.) If you really want to use A to append more data from the disk, you should probably not use 9999K to dump the current buffer, but use HK instead. Also, if a search fails, you'll aready be at 0, so no reason for the J command. > By the way, KED can do the same, but is limited to devices (I assume that > you must have done a non-file-structured open, i.e. ERdev:$$) that are less > than 32768 blocks. Since I have never had occasion to edit a full MSCP > device of 65535 blocks, I just never noticed the limitation. This > restriction > for KED also applies to files. So KED can INSPECT a logical device which > is 32767 blocks or less or an RL02 device, but no physical device or file > larger than 32767 blocks in total. TECO itself will not care, so that would be a limitation from the RT-11 point of view, in that case. TECO will serially read a file (or device) from start to finish, and don't really care about the file position information as such. >>> >>Can you describe how you used TECO to recover data from a >>> >>borked RT-11 filesystem (assuming that you did more than just >>> >>READ the text contents >>> >>of the files >>> >>in the same manner that KED would also allow using a >>> >>non-file-structured edit >>> >>of the whole device)? Otherwise, if you just used TECO to >>> >>just READ the >>> >>text >>> >>strings, please confirm that as well. >>> >> >> >I didn't fix a corrupt system back to a working system. I read >> >blocks from disk into TECO (as you say, in a non-file structured >> >mode), somehow found the root directory and worked out where the >> >files I cared about lived, read each of those and saved them to floppy. >> >Then either the disk was reformatted or it went back to whoever we >> >bought it from for a replacement- I just don't remember. >> > > More than likely, you just found the source ASCII text you were looking > for and wrote > that to the floppy file using something similar the the TECO command > that I suggested. > TECO is not designed nor able to show individual words of a specific > block as SIPP > is able to do. Not sure what SIPP is, but TECO can handle, and display, anything. It was designed to be able to deal with any kind of information, not just text. >> >TECO can certainly read disk block N, and having done that it can surely >> >mangle that disk block; what I'm not sure of is whether it can then >> >write that block out to the required disk block. >> > > I really don't think so. TECO can, as far as I know, work only with > ASCII text strings. No. TECO works perfectly fine with any kind of binary data. > Binary data can't be managed easily, if at all, by TECO such as what > SIPP can do. No. TECO handles binary data just fine. Whenever you enter text, all characters are allowed. And by all characters, I really mean all characters. Control characters are just as welcome as printable ones. A few characters have special meaning in TECO, such as ESC, ^C, and a few more. ESC can be used by instead setting another character as the delimiter for the search string. Other special control characters can be inserted by prefixing them with ^Q, which means that the next character should be taken literally, and not be interpreted. For most characters though, nothing special is needed at all, and you can just enter them in your search string. In the case you don't really want to type the control characters as such, you can create the search string before using it, and then just suck it into your search string as well. In addition to this, you also have the powerful pattern matching of search strings, that TECO gives you. So you can say that any character should match at a specific position, and then match whatever comes after more specifically as well (or any number of other potential pattern matching schemes you can think of). Johnny From bqt at softjar.se Thu Dec 2 12:13:03 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 19:13:03 +0100 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CF7E1AF.3040506@softjar.se> On 12/01/10 08:13, Dennis Boone wrote: > > > I can't find any COBOL, BASIC, MODULA, CORAL, DIBOL, etc. > > > In 7.3, I'm sure that's now true. I'm pretty sure I remember some > > COBOL and BASIC back in the 4.x and 5.x days, but I can't promise that > > my memory is 100% correct. > > Given the RSX heritage, I wouldn't be surprised if some BASIC code came > across. I was actually almost surprised not to find MODULA, but a bit > of googling suggests my memory of a DEC compiler is erroneous. I would > only expect to find COBOL in some kind of reporting tool, where > performance wouldn't so much. ??? What made you connect RSX with BASIC? There is not a single piece of RSX that has anything to do with BASIC, as far as I know. You'll have to go to some layered products before you find any BASIC at all in relation to RSX. Were you perhaps thinking of RSTS/E? Johnny From philpem at philpem.me.uk Thu Dec 2 07:20:09 2010 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 13:20:09 +0000 Subject: AT&T 3B1 keyboard protocol Message-ID: <4CF79D09.5030204@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, Does anyone have any details on the control protocol for the keyboard on the AT&T 3B1? A command list and/or scan code list would be most useful... or even actual driver source code :) I'm about a third of the way there with my emulator -- it's running the BootPROM, passes the MAPRAM, VRAM and Base RAM self tests, and I'm well on the way to implementing memory mapping/protection and the UI interfaces (keyboard, mouse and video)... I'm not sure how to go about emulating the telephony hardware though; I might just leave that "unemulated" for now. Thanks, -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From bqt at softjar.se Thu Dec 2 12:15:50 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 19:15:50 +0100 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CF7E256.7070309@softjar.se> On 12/01/10 08:13, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Dennis Boone > Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 5:57 PM > >>>> >>> I can't find any COBOL, BASIC, MODULA, CORAL, DIBOL, etc. >>> >> In 7.3, I'm sure that's now true. I'm pretty sure I remember some >>> >> COBOL and BASIC back in the 4.x and 5.x days, but I can't promise that >>> >> my memory is 100% correct. >> > Given the RSX heritage, I wouldn't be surprised if some BASIC code came >> > across. I was actually almost surprised not to find MODULA, but a bit >> > of googling suggests my memory of a DEC compiler is erroneous. I would >> > only expect to find COBOL in some kind of reporting tool, where >> > performance wouldn't so much. > I think you've confused RSX-11M (the basis of VMS) with RSTS/E (the version > in existence by the time VMS came to be written). RSX-11{A,B,C,D,M,S} is > very much Macro-11 oriented; I'm not sure that there is a BASIC available. Late to the thread... (as usual) :-) Yes, there exists BASIC for RSX. It's called BASIC+2. But no part of RSX proper have anything to do with this layered product. RSX-11M(+) is mostly written in MACRO-11, with some BLISS-11 in there. Johnny From bqt at softjar.se Thu Dec 2 12:38:04 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 19:38:04 +0100 Subject: OS X (was: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CF7E78C.4030500@softjar.se> On 12/01/10 23:55, Richard wrote: > In article, > "Zane H. Healy" writes: > >> > On Wed, 1 Dec 2010, Richard wrote: >> > >>> > > Since it has a BSD kernel underneath, I'm guessing that all of the OS >>> > > proper is written in C and that all the Apple stuff on top is written >>> > > in Objective-Cish. >> > >> > It does not have a BSD kernel underneath. It uses the Mach Microkernel. >> > It has a BSD layer on top of that. > Sorry, my mistake. I knew there was BSD in there somewhere. Still, I > doubt the Mach stuff is written in Objective-C, although I believe it > originally came from NeXT, so who knows. Well, technically, OS X is neither Mach, nor BSD. But a mix of both. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XNU for more details. But I'd consider it closer to BSD than Mach myself. There is not really much of the microkernel left in there... Johnny From philpem at philpem.me.uk Thu Dec 2 15:53:30 2010 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 21:53:30 +0000 Subject: Excessive optimization (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1291326810.29855.14.camel@ryoko> On Thu, 2010-12-02 at 13:15 -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: > A sparse commenting style that one might get away with in many other > languages, can be a disaster in C. Consider > while (*t++=*s++); That's easy. A string copy. The null-terminator is binary value 0, and any value which is nonzero is considered to be 'true' in the context of C Boolean statements. Thus, we have a loop that copies from 's' to 't' until it hits a NULL, then it bails out, having completely trashed both pointers. Hope you kept a backup copy (or this piece of code was part of a 1-line strcpy function, in which case "the stack saved ya!") ! -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From chrise at pobox.com Thu Dec 2 20:10:20 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 20:10:20 -0600 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: References: <4CF661D0.14358.10C5B57@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20101203021020.GB19168@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (12/02/2010 at 09:13PM +0000), Tony Duell wrote: > > > I do not dispute htat. My main comment was to the poster who suggested > > > an ARM-based microocntroller (I have never seen seen such a device in > > > a DIL package) > > > > No, but there's at least one in a PLCC package, sockets for which > > Do you haappen to have the part number for that? And know of a supplier > that sells 1-off qunanitites. When I looked at the commpon suppliers in > the UK< I couldn't find any prototypiong-friemndly ARMs :-) There's also these, http://mbed.org/nxp/lpc1768/ http://mbed.org/handbook/mbed-NXP-LPC1768 ARM Cortex-M3 and a design contest, http://www.nxp.com/news/content/file_1767.html where you can win $10,000! No, I don't work for NXP. Just think these are kinda cool. -- Chris Elmquist From philpem at philpem.me.uk Thu Dec 2 20:23:42 2010 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 02:23:42 +0000 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <20101202170717.V65761@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <20101202151325.T65761@shell.lmi.net> <4CF838CB.1020206@brouhaha.com> <20101202163901.Y65761@shell.lmi.net> <1291338072.1742.21.camel@ryoko> <20101202170717.V65761@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1291343022.5198.1.camel@ryoko> On Thu, 2010-12-02 at 17:15 -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: > If that is still a "Um, what?": > Douglas Adams > "Restaurant At The End Of The Universe" > (of "Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy") Ah -- that explains it. I really must get around to reading the other Hitchhiker's Guide books at some point... -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Fri Dec 3 00:03:33 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 00:03:33 -0600 Subject: Excessive optimization (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: <4CF8019A.30803@brouhaha.com> References: <4CF8019A.30803@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CF88835.4090606@tx.rr.com> On 12/2/2010 2:29 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I have used the following in embedded code to tight-loop the CPU in >> certain circumstances, intentionally requiring a reset of the >> processor to escape... >> >> for (;;) >> ; >> >> I suppose a good optimizer would know that you really meant to do that >> and should produce something resembling the following >> >> $1: JMP $1 >> >> ...but I certainly wouldn't want that statement optimized out entirely. > > If the compiler optimized that out entirely, the compiler is defective. > Optimizations are not supposed to change the semantics of well-formed code. > > On the other hand, the compiler is free to optimize > > int i; > for (i = 0; i < 100; i++) > ; > > into > > int i; > i = 100; > > Since that does not change the semantics. > > Eric > > I'm afraid I must disagree. What if, for my own nefarious purposes, I need the N microseconds of delay achieved via the "spurious" for loop? I know, code loop delays are generally a poor practice, but what does one do if a delay is absolutely required before timer interrupts can be enabled? What if there is no hardware timer (e.g. 8254) that can be read periodically to time the delay? What if I am writing a quick hardware test? Later, Charlie C. From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Fri Dec 3 00:19:53 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 00:19:53 -0600 Subject: Excessive optimization (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CF88C09.2020705@tx.rr.com> On 12/2/2010 2:59 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 3:32 PM, Richard wrote: >> >> In article, >> Ethan Dicks writes: >> >>> I have used the following in embedded code to tight-loop the CPU in >>> certain circumstances, intentionally requiring a reset of the >>> processor to escape... >>> >>> for (;;) >>> ; >> >> I don't see how this is an infinite loop requiring reset of the >> processor to escape since the condition clause is empty. >> In fact, >> since the condition clause is empty, I'm not even sure its >> syntactically valid, but C is strange enough that it may be >> syntactically valid but not intuititve. > > It is valid. C does not require that all (or in fact any) portion of > the for() construct be populated, so with no condition clause, the > loop will never exit without a break; The following line is a valid > statement in C for "no operation", a lexical placeholder. It should > evaluate the same as "{ }". The whole effect is to say "forever, do > nothing". Running on a machine with a modern operating system, your > process should loop endlessly until killed. On an embedded processor > (the context I mentioned at the start), there's no "process" as such, > so nothing to be killed, and with no programmatic escape from the > loop, all you can do is restart the processor. > > I've used it as a "hang forever" debugging token to let me step > through bits of embedded code and go no further - that way, I can > reset the machine, watch various things happen, I/O lines change > state, etc., then know that below a certain point in the code, > activity beyond fetching the same address endlessly will cease. > > I wouldn't want my C compiler to optimize out the null-statement since > it "does nothing". It does nothing forever, but it does it > intentionally. > > -ethan > While we are at it, please don't optimize out while (1) { } as a forever (or semi-forever if there is the possibility of a break) either. :-) BTW, I realize I'm another curmudgeon at large, but I claim the intent of while (1) is more immediately obvious than for (;;). I also claim the difference matters. FWIW, I also claim that many other matters of style matter as well, and that they in fact matter a great deal if one takes more than an immediate view of one's code. I suppose I also would claim that one should always take a relatively long term view of one's code. The trick of course is determining just how long the long term is, so the appropriate amount of effort is applied to make the code maintainable without making the project take forever. Later, Charlie C. From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Fri Dec 3 04:18:38 2010 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 10:18:38 -0000 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1D26196A2A4E4B6895F5C3BA9CD52C2D@xp32vm> >>>> Now I can't really believe you, there can't be such a big difference within the EU. <<<< The UK govt's "gold plating" of the Waste Electrical and Electronic Equipment Directive (2002/96/EC) tends to make UK businesses and Universities very wary of how they dispose of "obsolete" (typically 3 year old) computers. Andy From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 3 05:17:58 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 11:17:58 +0000 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: <1D26196A2A4E4B6895F5C3BA9CD52C2D@xp32vm> References: <1D26196A2A4E4B6895F5C3BA9CD52C2D@xp32vm> Message-ID: <4CF8D1E6.2070503@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Andy Holt wrote: > Now I can't really believe you, there can't be such a big difference > within the EU. > > The UK govt's "gold plating" of the Waste Electrical and Electronic > Equipment Directive (2002/96/EC) tends to make UK businesses and > Universities very wary of how they dispose of "obsolete" (typically 3 year > old) computers. The university that I work at has a policy that we are not even allowed to give old hardware away, let alone sell it. I believe that the thinking goes, that if we sell/give away equipment then we qualify as a supplier and have the problem that if a piece of equipment subsiquently catches fire and burns someone's house down then we could be found liable. Cheers. Phill. From rick at rickmurphy.net Fri Dec 3 05:28:46 2010 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 06:28:46 -0500 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <20101202151325.T65761@shell.lmi.net> <4CF838CB.1020206@brouhaha.com> <20101202163901.Y65761@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201012031128.oB3BSkED025994@rickmurphy.net> At 11:04 PM 12/2/2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: >On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 7:48 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Thu, 2 Dec 2010, Eric Smith wrote: > >> > A[i++] = i++; > >> I can't quote chapter and verse, but I'm fairly sure the standard will > >> say that the result of that assignment is undefined. > > > > C can be pretty loose about letting you do such. > >There are many things that folks commonly do that are officially >undefined... like strlen(NULL) (that returned 0 on an NCR box but >segfaulted a SPARC - the NCR guys tried to claim it proved the Sun was >broken, but I had to point out that it's undefined). I remember this with a large potential customer with a bunch of applications running on HP-UX that needed to be ported to ULTRIX. lots of code like strcpy(foo, NULL); used to initialize strings and strcmp(foo, NULL) to see if a string is empty, etc. Apparently location 0 in memory had a zero. Fixing this required a lot of work, then we had to fix binary blobs written to disk (big-endian) to fix them to little-endian. All of this was used to demonstrate that the DEC platform was obviously unusable. Aren't sales reps fun? Probably more relevant to the compiler optimization thread, another fun with marketing incident was the Sun rep handing our customer a "simple little benchmark" that their compiler apparently recognized and optimized out. The SPARC ran it in seconds while our MIPS based machine took quite a while. This was my first run-in with the benchmark preprocessor that did "deep optimization" of the SPECmark benchmarks. -Rick From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Dec 3 07:36:35 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 07:36:35 -0600 Subject: L6: Bell Telephone Laboratories Low-Level Linked List Language (film) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201012031343.oB3DgtVG063143@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 10:42 PM 12/2/2010, Richard wrote: >In 1966, Ken Knowlton created a 16-minute black and white film showing >animated algorithms for the L6 language. Does anyone know if this >film is online anywhere or if the film has been archived anywhere (CHM >perhaps?). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv0JUEqaAXo - John From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Dec 3 07:39:08 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 07:39:08 -0600 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <201012031343.oB3Dgt3H063145@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 12:02 AM 12/3/2010, Kevin Schoedel wrote: >No. The reason you got a "floating point exception" is that Unix >traditionally lumps integer arithmetic fault together with floating point >faults under one signal, SIGFPE. I had a hard time imagining a C that used floating point ops to handle integer divides. On the other hand, if someone wasn't watching the type of their variables, they might not realize that a right-hand operation would be calculated as floats, even if it was being stored back into an int. >Also, > "TF"[!b] > >At 8:35 pm -0800 2010/12/02, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>Does any C detect integer overflow (i.e. subtracting a large positive >>number from a negative and getting a positive number back)? Overflow? What if that was what you wanted to happen? After all, you wrote it that way. - John From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Dec 3 08:42:59 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 09:42:59 -0500 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: References: <48A1B7FE9926437B80ACF36143E2F7DC@andrewdesktop><20101129190657.GA28637@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4CF901F3.3030708@verizon.net> On 12/02/2010 02:28 AM, Teo Zenios wrote: > >> >> Anyone who has come up with ideas, i'd encourage you to move forward >> with at least a theory or virtual model, if not a physical device. > > > How hard would it be to make an adapter from SCSI (or laptop IDE) to > SD cards (the ones all these digital cameras use)? I figure there will > be millions of those things in the 256MB to several GB range (perfect > for old systems), they should be fast enough, small enough, and about > worthless plus easy to ship cheaply. People are using IDE to CF > adapters but it seems to be SD is more common and much smaller. > A little bit of history and how we got to SCSI to anything... In the early days pre-SCSI there was the WD1001HDO , What that was is a bus level interface not unlike IDE (8bit bus, a few address lines, read, wrie and select) to a board that had CPU, RAM,EPROM, and the full interface from the cpu to ST506 disk drive(MFM). The idea was to make using the ST506 drives easier as it was largely interfaces like and IO chip. These were used in many systems and also existed in forms like the S100 version (aternate vendors did this like KONAN, Teltek). Many systems had a functionally similar board that plugged into do this and for PCs the most well known was the WD1003 (hint remember that one). SCSI to MFM.. A starting point. the typical bridge board sucj as the WD, Adaptec, or Xybec were very similar. they contained a SCSI to microprocessor interface (raw ttl, ASIC, or 5380), A CPU typically Z80 or 8085 and 4-16K of rom and 2-8k of ram followed by (for the ones I have) a WD1010 MFM chip set and TTL ST506 interface or maybe the WD11C00 ST506 D interface chipset. The rest is software that does three major things, SCSI protocol and interface management, SCSI command structure(read write and housekeeping), and the needed routines to read, write and manage the disk hardware and the drive itself. All on a board that fits in the common (then) 5.25 footprint. These were emerging soon after the WD1001HDO as the naucent SASI bus that later would be come SCSI in all its flavors. SCSI to IDE.. First why IDE, IDE drives are still available and CF or solid state IDE is the same interface and parts in the 32MB to many GB range are available. A bridge board for SCSI to anything will look the same as most of the boards already known save for the one area gets way simpler. the scsi interface can still be done with TTL, Z80 or 8085s are easily found in small volumes, Eprom/flash for fixed storage is easy and same for Ram though a few K is all thats needed such as a 2116 or maybe 2164. The departure is that the whole disk interface just goes away and can be replaces with a trivial bit of TTL to interface to IDE/CF as the "DISK and interface". Fundamentally the IDE interface was the WD1003(remember that) and a MFM drive amalgamated into one so that the PC bus could literally be connected to the IDE (integrated electronics disk) directly. Well, it was never direct as engineers decided a little buffering and decoding of the PC bus was needed but that was very trivial. It became a standard. The IDE command set is the WD1003 command set though later versions allowed for LBA instead of CHS and a few extensions. So what does that ahve to do with SCSI... Well, if you can put the whole WD1001HDO or 1003equivilent on the drive then the interface is ready for CPU/ram/rom to do intelligent interfaces like SASI and SCSI. Due to miniaturization in the same time frame the SCSI to IDE was skipped as the SCSI interface with all the electronics could be put on the drive. So what we have been talking about is revisiting the SCSI to IDE bridge that never emerged as it was a evolutionary step never needed. Until now. So to do this all was need to do is build the SCSI interface with TTL or a FPGA to CPU, add the cpu plus some ram and rom and then employ the common and electronically simple IDE interface to add the drive . The drive could easily be a IDE drive or CF, MMD, FLASH but the idea is the host interface to whatever. this whole thing can be done with common parts and need not include ASICs or FPGA, gal or other programmable logic outside of Eproms. Parts like an ARM with integrated peripherals are appealing for this as they offer speed and may limit the needed external hardware but mounting a BGA or TQFP is at best unappealing to out of reach. Additionally many older systems that use SCSI do not stress the performance needed and a z80 or 8085 is fast enough. Plenty of people have built 8085 or z80 to IDE so this is known and in the public domain. there are examples of Z80 to SCSI using nothing but TTL and software the Visual 1050 used that and there are others. So SCSI to IDE is electrically fairly simple. The software is harder to call but if a z80 with 4k Eprom could do SCSI to MFM and IDE is simpler or minimally similar to the MFM chip sets the task should be about the same magnitude. I don't presume to know all of SCSI but the AmproLB+ had a CPM Bios that spoke SCSI to a SCSI hard disk so there is code there and likely other places to use. I also had to rewrite it to go from a SCSI bridge with 10mb drive to a 45mb SCSI drive so there is no real mystery there. The tasks that need to be performed are likely not many or complex and it would only take a spec for a SCSI drive to find out what those commands and actions would be. So if SCSI drive supplies went away that's a solution. Myself I'm not planning on doing it as I have dozens of SCSI drives in the 45mb to 1.3GB range (DEC RZ2x, RZ55,RZ56 and Barcudas) to insure my needs. I also made a point to collect SCSI drives with failed media and electronics as they can be used to reeanimate a similar dead drive. On the other front I have a boxes (imagine two 10 ream paper boxes) of IDE drives in the 10mb to 500mb range and a smaller collection of 1gb to 80gb drives pulled from those PCs people just toss. Since I also maintain DEC systems a significant pile of 5mb to 31mb drives of the ST506, 512 and Q540(AKA rd52), RD53 and a few RD54 drives. Sure some might fail from sitting, I've not seen that. Also drives with known poor histories (as a family) have been eliminated by use to extinction already, for example ST251s and JST and some flavors of WD and Segates. Oddly enough the oldest is a ST506 that refuses to quit and it's been used hard for a long time. I also have a lot of the RD53s with the head stick problem (micropolos 1325s) I've fixed all and they all have long use that says for that class of drive opening them without doing the extremes of a clean room has no ill effect. The only bridge ibe interested in is Q-bus MSCP to IDE/CF/MMD/FLASH to fill the need in the DEC space as Q-bus to anything is not well filled with cheap anything especially the RQDXn series Q-bus to MFM. In the end If I had to and I didn't have the SCSI spares I see no great difficulty in wire wrapping a SCSI to IDE bridge. Some research would be be needed to unsure the board implemented the SCSI drive it replaces but if the drive existed the spec should be on hand anyway. I'm rather pragmatic and practical on all this as much of the hardware I have has 20+ years of my experience as well and is maintainable for a long time to come. When it comes to the system people are worrying drives when Power supplies, and a whole host of other subsystems are also likely to fail. Systems become unsupportable when the sum total of the parts has an item that has become unobtainium and there for unrepairable if failed. Allison From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Dec 3 08:57:01 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 09:57:01 -0500 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: References: <4CF7FE5E.15166.29044C2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CF9053D.7030505@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> c = a/*p; /* divide 10/2 */ >> ; /* null statements are legal in C */ >> >> Digraphs are nasty. > > There was a good example of that sort of thing and an intentionally > obsoleted feature of C interacting badly in a VAX-C tutorial... > > It was something like... > > main() > { > int i; > > i=-1; > printf("i is %d\n", i); > } > > ... it worked *if* you loaded the program with the debugger, otherwise > you got a seemingly large and random value for i. Ah! A Heisenbug! Peace... Sridhar From tony.eros at machm.org Fri Dec 3 09:06:20 2010 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 10:06:20 -0500 Subject: Fixing small plastic... things In-Reply-To: <4CF8A053.7060801@mail.msu.edu> References: <4CF8A053.7060801@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <654301cb92fb$a45a9ec0$ed0fdc40$@machm.org> I wonder -- would this be a good application for a 3D printer? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Josh Dersch Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 2:46 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Fixing small plastic... things Hi all -- Got myself a Friden 1162 desktop calculator. This is from about 1968-69 and has a neat-O keen CRT display and uses a magnetorestrictive delay line memory. Kinda cool. Mine has taken a fair amount of abuse over the years, and is currently not working properly -- at the moment it powers up (with nominal voltages, etc) and displays a normal display of all zeros, but as soon as a key is depressed, the screen goes blank and never returns. The 1162 has a rather interesting keyboard encoding mechanism (you can see a decent overview of the device & the keyboard mechanism here: http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/friden1162.html) Close investigation of the keyboard mechanism on my specimen reveals that a few of the plastic "fingers" that are positioned on the rods that move the magnets to/away from the reed switches have snapped off. I have a close up picture of what the fingers are supposed to look like at: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/friden/normal-finger.JPG And a picture of one of the broken ones at: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/friden/broken-finger.JPG The broken fingers no longer make contact with the mechanism, and so a couple of the reed switches do not get activated properly. I'm guessing that this is at least part of the reason the machine is acting the way that it is (that it's getting unexpected scancodes from the keyboard and going off into the weeds...) I need to figure out how to "recap" these fingers. I don't have a lot of experience repairing plastic stuff like this, anyone have any suggestions? Thanks! Josh From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Dec 3 09:12:28 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 07:12:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fixing small plastic... things In-Reply-To: <654301cb92fb$a45a9ec0$ed0fdc40$@machm.org> References: <4CF8A053.7060801@mail.msu.edu> <654301cb92fb$a45a9ec0$ed0fdc40$@machm.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Dec 2010, Tony Eros wrote: > I wonder -- would this be a good application for a 3D printer? > I would suspect yes. Check out Ponoko - they've got some great pricing on this kind of thing. http://www.ponoko.com/ g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From lproven at gmail.com Fri Dec 3 09:25:49 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 15:25:49 +0000 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: <4CF8D1E6.2070503@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <1D26196A2A4E4B6895F5C3BA9CD52C2D@xp32vm> <4CF8D1E6.2070503@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 11:17 AM, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > Andy Holt wrote: >> >> Now I can't really believe you, there can't be such a big difference >> within the EU. >> The UK govt's "gold plating" of the Waste Electrical and Electronic >> Equipment Directive (2002/96/EC) ?tends to make UK businesses and >> Universities very wary of how they dispose of "obsolete" (typically 3 year >> old) computers. > > The university that I work at has a policy that we are not even allowed to > give old hardware away, let alone sell it. I believe that the thinking goes, > that if we sell/give away equipment then we qualify as a supplier and have > the problem that if a piece of equipment subsiquently catches fire and burns > someone's house down then we could be found liable. Then talk to Computer Aid, who have all manner of legal waivers and so on to avoid that, and are WEEE compliant. http://www.computeraid.org/ -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Dec 3 09:38:42 2010 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 07:38:42 -0800 Subject: OS X (was: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: <4CF7E78C.4030500@softjar.se> References: <4CF7E78C.4030500@softjar.se> Message-ID: <44855A7F-B05A-4BC3-A166-A3D00E6FCC68@shiresoft.com> On Dec 2, 2010, at 10:38 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 12/01/10 23:55, Richard wrote: > >> In article, >> "Zane H. Healy" writes: >> >>> > On Wed, 1 Dec 2010, Richard wrote: >>> > >>>> > > Since it has a BSD kernel underneath, I'm guessing that all of the OS >>>> > > proper is written in C and that all the Apple stuff on top is written >>>> > > in Objective-Cish. >>> > >>> > It does not have a BSD kernel underneath. It uses the Mach Microkernel. >>> > It has a BSD layer on top of that. >> Sorry, my mistake. I knew there was BSD in there somewhere. Still, I >> doubt the Mach stuff is written in Objective-C, although I believe it >> originally came from NeXT, so who knows. > > Well, technically, OS X is neither Mach, nor BSD. But a mix of both. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XNU for more details. But I'd consider it closer to BSD than Mach myself. There is not really much of the microkernel left in there... umm, no. There really is. However the line has been blurred quite a bit. TTFN - Guy From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Dec 3 09:46:03 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 10:46:03 -0500 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: <4CF8D1E6.2070503@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <1D26196A2A4E4B6895F5C3BA9CD52C2D@xp32vm> <4CF8D1E6.2070503@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: > The university that I work at has a policy that we are not even allowed to > give old hardware away, let alone sell it. Most universities have gone this way. However, if you talk to the right people the right way, good stuff can still be had (quite legally and above the board, too.). -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 3 11:19:59 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 10:19:59 -0700 Subject: L6: Bell Telephone Laboratories Low-Level Linked List Language (film) In-Reply-To: <201012031343.oB3DgtVG063143@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <201012031343.oB3DgtVG063143@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: In article <201012031343.oB3DgtVG063143 at billY.EZWIND.NET>, John Foust writes: > At 10:42 PM 12/2/2010, Richard wrote: > >In 1966, Ken Knowlton created a 16-minute black and white film showing > >animated algorithms for the L6 language. Does anyone know if this > >film is online anywhere or if the film has been archived anywhere (CHM > >perhaps?). > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv0JUEqaAXo Wrong film. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 3 11:26:56 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 10:26:56 -0700 Subject: Fixing small plastic... things In-Reply-To: References: <4CF8A053.7060801@mail.msu.edu> <654301cb92fb$a45a9ec0$ed0fdc40$@machm.org> Message-ID: In article , Gene Buckle writes: > On Fri, 3 Dec 2010, Tony Eros wrote: > > > I wonder -- would this be a good application for a 3D printer? > > > I would suspect yes. Check out Ponoko - they've got some great pricing on > this kind of thing. http://www.ponoko.com/ There's a guy in our make group that has a printer and can print small parts reasonably well. If you want, I can have him contact you Josh. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 3 11:28:40 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 10:28:40 -0700 Subject: Excessive optimization (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: <4CF88835.4090606@tx.rr.com> References: <4CF8019A.30803@brouhaha.com> <4CF88835.4090606@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: In article <4CF88835.4090606 at tx.rr.com>, Charlie Carothers writes: > I'm afraid I must disagree. What if, for my own nefarious purposes, I > need the N microseconds of delay achieved via the "spurious" for loop? Put that code in a compilation unit that is compiled with optimizations turned off. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Dec 3 11:38:20 2010 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 09:38:20 -0800 Subject: Excessive optimization (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: References: <4CF8019A.30803@brouhaha.com> <4CF88835.4090606@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4FE5A782-1FE6-4408-BF45-61FA3701FD16@shiresoft.com> On Dec 3, 2010, at 9:28 AM, Richard wrote: > > In article <4CF88835.4090606 at tx.rr.com>, > Charlie Carothers writes: > >> I'm afraid I must disagree. What if, for my own nefarious purposes, I >> need the N microseconds of delay achieved via the "spurious" for loop? > > Put that code in a compilation unit that is compiled with > optimizations turned off. Better yet, have the loop call an external (to the compilation unit) function (that does nothing - ie just returns). The optimizer can't eliminate the loop because it doesn't know what side effects the function may have. The other way to deal with this is to declare a variable as a volatile pointer and keep reading it. The optimizer can't remove the reads (or writes) to a volatile pointer. Although the best case would be to have a high resolution clock that you keep checking (but again that would use either an external function or a volatile pointer). TTFN - Guy From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 3 11:52:40 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 09:52:40 -0800 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <201012031343.oB3Dgt3H063145@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: , , <201012031343.oB3Dgt3H063145@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4CF8BDE8.13345.10495F@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Dec 2010 at 7:39, John Foust wrote: > I had a hard time imagining a C that used floating point ops to > handle integer divides. On the other hand, if someone wasn't > watching the type of their variables, they might not realize > that a right-hand operation would be calculated as floats, > even if it was being stored back into an int. Not at all. On the CDC 6000, the usual way to do an integer divide by a non-constant was: * Divide integer X1 by X2 leaving result in X3. PX4 X1,B0 PX5 X2,B0 NX4 X4 NX5 X5 FX3 X4/X5 UX3 X3,B3 LX3 X3,B3 Hope I've got the syntax right--it's been 30-odd years since I've written any COMPASS. The point is that on some systems, the only divide is a floating-point one and is by far faster than any bit-by- bit software integer divide. I can't recall, but I think the i860 also falls in this category; the Cray-1 certainly does, not even having a floating-point divide, but rather a reciprocal approximation. On the 6000, system code that needed to calculate a low-precision (say, 18 bits) result often substituted a divide by a constant with an unnormalized double-precision multiply of the shifted reciprocal of the divisor. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Dec 3 12:29:55 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 18:29:55 +0000 Subject: AT&T 3B1 keyboard protocol In-Reply-To: <4CF86D7E.80509@bitsavers.org> References: <4CF79D2D.30702@philpem.me.uk> <4CF86D7E.80509@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1291400995.8887.48.camel@ryoko> On Thu, 2010-12-02 at 20:09 -0800, Al Kossow wrote: > kbd.h is in DEV351_6.IMD on bitsavers. > hopefully someone with a running machine can just send you the file out of /include/sys There's another (more complete) set of disc images on http://www.unixpc.org/floppies/ -- in dd format. Take the development disc set (disk0[1-8]), and cat them together: cat disk0[1-8] > devel.cpio Open the cpio file in Midnight Commander, navigate to usr/sys/kbd.h, and hit F3. I get the impression that the protocol is fairly simple; a preamble byte before the mouse/keyboard data, groups of three bytes for mouse data (0x80 set for the 1st byte in a group, clear for the other two), a preamble byte for keyboard data, then the keyboard data. The fun part will be emulating the FORMAT TRACK, READ TRACK and WRITE TRACK commands on the 2797 FDC... which of course is Job #1, seeing as the machine won't boot without a floppy or hard drive :( Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Dec 3 13:17:42 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 14:17:42 -0500 Subject: Excessive optimization (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: References: <1291324333.29855.11.camel@ryoko> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 11:56 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article , > ? ?Ethan Dicks writes: > >> I think you are imagining it backwards.... > > Huh? ?A for loop is just a while loop with an initialization chunk and > a per-loop chunk at the end of the while block. ?What's weird is that > for allows the condition to be omitted and have an implied "true" put > in its place, but while doesn't allow the condition to be omitted. That is a clear way of putting it. I was focusing on the questor's issue about how the construct didn't make sense with null elements and got tangled up elsewhere. >?The loop block is not executed > at all if the condition is false, unlike a do/while loop which always > executes the block once. ?But I'm sure you knew that, too. Right. I was unclear about the case of once-through vs skipping the payload, but that wasn't the aspect of it that I was trying to address. Apologies for muddling the issue. As I said earlier, I should have taken the time to proof what I read, and in my haste, failed so to do. -ethan From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Dec 3 13:41:09 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 11:41:09 -0800 Subject: Editor bindings [was RE: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?] In-Reply-To: References: <20101201140346.S26310@shell.lmi.net> <201012022156.oB2LuBBm028786@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4CF81AA2.5070702@vaxen.net> <20101202142210.E63877@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: From: Liam Proven Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2010 6:47 PM > FTAOD: CUA = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_User_Access > What I'd /really/ like as a writing tool would be a CUA mode for > EMACS. I find its native UI bizarre and incomprehensible - if I have > to edit text at a Unix prompt, I use Vi, badly - but reading comments > like Neal Stephenson's in /In The Beginning Was The Command Line/ > make me think it might > be the ultimate writers' tool. I'm damned if I'm learning another new > set of keybindings [a] at my age and [b] in a world where CUA has > killed off everything else and now rules the GUI world. You're apparently in luck. Starting with release 22.1, GNU Emacs includes a cua-mode with appropriate keybindings, so that you don't have to do them all yourself. (One of the beauties of the entire EMACS family of editors is that you *can* do anything you want with key bindings. You don't have to accept the defaults.) I learned EMACS on TOPS-20 in 1978. I liked it so much that I studied the TECO sources,[1] and came up with my own variant which I used for years.[2] When GNU Emacs hit Stanford, at version 17., I immediately began to use it under Ultrix on our VAXen at LOTS, and have continued to use it through today. Some of the keybindings I use go back to my personalized version of TECO EMACS. I found the keybindings on MacWrite a little annoying, since my EMACS fingers often tripped on them, but I've gotten used to Word in the last few years (since my current employer uses Microsoft products as a corporate standard). I still trip over as "cancel" instead of "Meta-", so I type e-mail into an Emacs window on my Windows desktop, then cut-and-paste into the Outlook window. Because Emacs has continued to be supported and improved, I've never needed to move to another editor. When I'm writing things for personal use, I use Emacs on Mac OS X at home, and run them through TeX for formatting, usually creating a PDF document in a single step. I don't need CUA, but it's there for those who do. [1] In fact, I posted a Y2K fix to the TIME library to the Emacs newsgroups 11 years ago. Both the original author of the library and RMS himself were amazed and amused. [2] Mostly a matter of moving selected functions from standard libraries into my own, to save space. TECO EMACS has never been moved from its original 256KW address space into the modern 1GW world of recent versions of the PDP-10 and its OSes. Editor and document must all fit into the cramped confines of a single memory section. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Dec 3 13:50:21 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 11:50:21 -0800 Subject: AT&T 3B1 keyboard protocol In-Reply-To: <1291400995.8887.48.camel@ryoko> References: <4CF79D2D.30702@philpem.me.uk> <4CF86D7E.80509@bitsavers.org> <1291400995.8887.48.camel@ryoko> Message-ID: <4CF949FD.5050209@bitsavers.org> On 12/3/10 10:29 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > The fun part will be emulating the FORMAT TRACK, READ TRACK and WRITE > TRACK commands on the 2797 FDC... why don't you just add it to MESS, where these devices are already simulated? From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Dec 3 15:00:42 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 21:00:42 +0000 Subject: AT&T 3B1 keyboard protocol In-Reply-To: <4CF949FD.5050209@bitsavers.org> References: <4CF79D2D.30702@philpem.me.uk> <4CF86D7E.80509@bitsavers.org> <1291400995.8887.48.camel@ryoko> <4CF949FD.5050209@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1291410042.10979.43.camel@ryoko> On Fri, 2010-12-03 at 11:50 -0800, Al Kossow wrote: > why don't you just add it to MESS, where these devices are already simulated? I've seen the MESS codebase. It's.... messy. Definitely shows its MAME roots. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 3 12:50:01 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 18:50:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: <201012022156.oB2LuBBm028786@billY.EZWIND.NET> from "John Foust" at Dec 2, 10 03:54:45 pm Message-ID: > > At 02:34 PM 12/2/2010, Tony Duell wrote: > >> > "Baby duck syndrome" > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >What is this? > > Let me google that for you. Maybe you'll debug something for me someday. Thank you... I make the same offer as I've always made. If I receive any personal e-mail about classic computers, I will respond. The repoly may be 'sorry, I have never come across that machine' or '$ccperson is the expert on that machine'. But if you ask about something I have some knowledge off, I _will_ try to help. Period. > > "Baby Duck Syndrome denotes the tendency for computer users to "imprint" on > the first system they learn, then judge other systems by their similarity > to that first system. The result is that "users generally prefer systems > similar to those they learned on and dislike unfamiliar systems."[1] The > term may have been inspired by popular understanding of the work, > experiences, and observations of Konrad Lorenz." Oh right... I don't think I suffer from that. The first disk OS I used was not suprisingly CP/M. And yet I find unix much nicer than, say, RT11 of VMS. The first assembly language I learnt was Z80 (and SC/MP at about the same time), but I find 6809 and PDP11 assembly to be a lot more pleasant. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 3 13:17:41 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 19:17:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: <561EAE3F30CE4597BD7DA5D6153C377F@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Dec 2, 10 08:08:20 pm Message-ID: > > You keep on telling us that things are different between Brazil and the > > States, and what is common in one place is not common in the other. Whcih > > I happily accept. All I can say is that the UK is different again. Or at > > least I've enver found any form of Pentium PC for free. The latest PC > > that I've been given was a battered 386SX that, I have to admit, I took > > apart for useful bits. > > Strange. I **though** "old" PCs in UK were as cheap as water. But I I clearly don;'t know the right people (or perhaps my friends wouldn't insult me by offering me a PC, prefering to give me useful thinks like bench multimetes :-)). I've never been offered such a macnine anyway... > still don't believe someone reading this won't give you as a gift an old P3 > or even a P4. If I were near you I'd surely do that. Of coruse the otehr side ot this is 'Do I realy want a Pentium PC'. And to be honest, I can't see that I do. I'm happy with the machine I've got... > > It is my bitter esperience that a lot of thsee parallel-port devices, > > even those that have software that runs under MS-DOS, do not work > > properly on a 4.77MHz PC/XT... > > My keyboard runs faster than that... :oD Define 'faster' :-) Comapring the speed of totally diiffernt processors by comapring the clock input frequency of one (the 4.77MHz of my XT) with the crystal freuqncy of the other (I asusme something like an 8MHz xtal) is meaningless. > > > True, and contrary to some other people here, I do like making my own > > tools, whether they be mechancial tools, electronic tools (like test > > equipment) or software tools. In fact _I_ am seriously looking at some of > > the current microcotnrolelr families for use in projects. But this > > doesn't mean everybody has to want to use them. > > So they roll their own :) Exactly. I roll my own. Which might inovlve soldering up a PCB of TTL chips... > That is up to you. I have this notebook for some years, and it just > works. Although I love to know my tools, I can use some I don't know the > internal workings. I really do like to know what's going on, and be able to repair everything. Call me eccentric if you like, but I am, not likely to change :-) > > > I have come across all of those microcontrollers in my time. In fact I > > was using something based on the 3870 (the HPIL-GPIO interface) and > > reparing something containing a COP400 (HPIL knob input device -- in fact > > jsut about all HP-HIL devices have COP400s in them) a couple of days ago. > > HP does everything different :o) Indeed :-). Which is one reason I find their machines so interesting. Actually the COP400 turns up on the keyboard PCB of the Newbrain (a somewhat odd UK home computer) too. And I can't remember which COP is used in the keybaord of the FTS-88 system. > > > Actually, the 8048 family is getting soemwhat hard to find now (AFAIL it > > is no longer manufactured), and that one turns up _everywhere_. > > Ok, this one you are right. But as far as I remember, MCS-51 devices are > pin-compatible. And since they don't have code protection, I can always > download the code of a good 8048 and use a 8748 to replace it. I did it many I was counint the 8748 is the '8048 family'. The 8748/8749/8750 and the ROMless 8035/8039/8040 are all getting hard to obtain now. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 3 13:21:30 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 19:21:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: <066CA08FD7FB4E1DAD460C0EBCD286BD@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Dec 2, 10 08:09:47 pm Message-ID: > > > Do you haappen to have the part number for that? And know of a supplier > > that sells 1-off qunanitites. When I looked at the commpon suppliers in > > the UK< I couldn't find any prototypiong-friemndly ARMs :-) > > Farnell UK That was, not suprisingly, the first place I looked. Alas the web site is somwhat broken, in that if you look at microcotnrollers it will tell you that there are of them (for a large ) and then ask you to refine the sarach by selecting from checklists. It's then that you discover that while you can select DIP, PLCC, PQFP, SIOC, BGA, etc packages, the sum of the numbers for all the package types is a lot less than . And you can't seay 'I definetely do not want a BGA deivce). Mind you, the paper catalogue is not much better... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 3 13:29:40 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 19:29:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Dec 2, 10 03:03:16 pm Message-ID: > > Fred Cisin wrote: > > Yes, C DOES permit an empty condition clause. Valid, and often used when > > a programmer prefers to use the "for" rather than "while" keyword. > > C permits a lot of interesting things. I've occasionally interviewed > programmers claiming to be C experts, and amongst my questions for them > are whether the following is valid C code, what will happen when it is > executed, and why: > > #include > int main () > { > int i; > for (i = 0; i < 14; i++) > putchar (i ["Hello, world!\n"]); > } I am not a C programmer, or indeed any sort of programmer, but my answers are : It is valid C code It should do the same as the BASIC program 10 PRINT "Hello, woeld" 20 END -- that is it will send the string 'Hello, world' followed by a newline to stnadard out Fromw what I rememebr A[i] in C is just a shorthand for indirecting from a pointer, and i[A] should be exactly the same thing. Hence the program thakss one character at a time from the character array containing "Hello, world\n" and output it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 3 15:20:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 21:20:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Dec 3, 10 03:44:18 am Message-ID: > I though the reason you limped along on your PC-AT with a 486 in it > was that it was the latest-model PC you could get for which you had > full schematics and so on. Machines 2 orders of magnitude show up in Indeed I do. having the schemaitcs and source code is very important to me. It measn I can fix the machine when things go wrong... > skips beside the road all the time. Try your local recycling centre - > you'll probably find piles of them, you just need to get to 'em before > they're left out in the rain. > > (10sec on Google) Try Townmead - they take electricals. > Townmead Road, Re-use and Recycling Centre, Townmead Road (off > Mortlake Road), Kew, TW9 4EL. Telephone 020 8876 3281 for more > details. No matter what it now clls itself, that's the council dump. And lasttime I checked they would not let me have old PCs quoting reasons of health and sefet and data protection. > > If you /want/ a newer PC that's not been scrapped, I have a dual > Athlon MP 1600+ machine in the garage. It worked, it just very > occasionally hard-reset for no apparent reason. It's been extensively I don;t want to seem ungreatful, but the last thing I need is a PC that occasiuonaly reboots for no apparent reason, and which I don;t have scheamtics for. Since this whole discussion started over programming microcontrollers, what happens if the thing decides to reboot half way though a programming cycle. I've come across device programs that can damge chips under such comnditions/ And considering this PC clearly has problems, should I really trust it to necessarily ru nthe microcontroller development tools correctly? The last thing i need when designing something is any more unknowns. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 3 15:24:34 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 21:24:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: <4883EC841E8C4E009317ACE5E486CFC2@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Dec 3, 10 02:20:11 am Message-ID: > > >If you /want/ a newer PC that's not been scrapped, I have a dual > >Athlon MP 1600+ machine in the garage. It worked, it just very > >occasionally hard-reset for no apparent reason. It's been extensively > >cannibalised - now it's just a motherboard in a case - but if you want > >it it's yours. I can probably find you graphics, sound, hard disks, > >optical drive, PSU and ancillary cabling. > That is SUCH a machine! With linux, I doubt Tony will have something > against that :oD Only that I have absolutely no way of fixing it... > Lets' start a campaign: "A modern PC for Tony. Tony using Linux" :oD Firstly, what do you think I am using at this very moment? Secondly, why do you want to change me. Surely the machine I chose to use is my business? Why do you think my life would be improved in any way if I had such a machine? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 3 15:31:46 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 21:31:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Fixing small plastic... things In-Reply-To: <4CF8A053.7060801@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Dec 2, 10 11:46:27 pm Message-ID: > > Hi all -- > > Got myself a Friden 1162 desktop calculator. This is from about 1968-69 > and has a neat-O keen CRT display and uses a magnetorestrictive delay > line memory. Kinda cool. Sounds very nice... [...] > The 1162 has a rather interesting keyboard encoding mechanism (you can > see a decent overview of the device & the keyboard mechanism here: > http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/friden1162.html) Close investigation > of the keyboard mechanism on my specimen reveals that a few of the > plastic "fingers" that are positioned on the rods that move the magnets > to/away from the reed switches have snapped off. > > I have a close up picture of what the fingers are supposed to look like at: > > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/friden/normal-finger.JPG > > And a picture of one of the broken ones at: > > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/friden/broken-finger.JPG > > The broken fingers no longer make contact with the mechanism, and so a > couple of the reed switches do not get activated properly. I'm guessing > that this is at least part of the reason the machine is acting the way > that it is (that it's getting unexpected scancodes from the keyboard and > going off into the weeds...) > > I need to figure out how to "recap" these fingers. I don't have a lot > of experience repairing plastic stuff like this, anyone have any > suggestions? A number of plastics become brittle with age, and I wonder if this has happeend here. In any case, I have had very little success in trying to repair things like this. I have found the best thing to do (and you won't like it) is to make new parts. Do they ahve to be plastic (e.g. for insulation)? I'd want to use brass rods and make little 'cams' to fit on them (secured by setscrews [1] against flats on the shaft). It wouldn't be oriignal, but it would almsocertainly be stronger. [1] A tirival hint. If you need to use small setscrews (grub screws), I suggest getting allen-hex ones. You can put one on the end of the hex key and use the latter to get the screw into the hole. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 3 15:52:16 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 13:52:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: 42 (Was: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <1291343022.5198.1.camel@ryoko> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <20101202151325.T65761@shell.lmi.net> <4CF838CB.1020206@brouhaha.com> <20101202163901.Y65761@shell.lmi.net> <1291338072.1742.21.camel@ryoko> <20101202170717.V65761@shell.lmi.net> <1291343022.5198.1.camel@ryoko> Message-ID: <20101203134616.U98997@shell.lmi.net> > > Douglas Adams > > "Restaurant At The End Of The Universe" > > (of "Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy") On Fri, 3 Dec 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Ah -- that explains it. I really must get around to reading the other > Hitchhiker's Guide books at some point... I'd recommend them, assuming that your personal tastes run in those directions. The original BBC TV production was great! The books are great! Five volumes in the trilogy, and a sixth book (by somebody else) that is a moderately good attempt to mimic Adams' style. Adams' other books that are NOT part of the series are also worth reading. The Disney movie: I gave away my DVD. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Dec 3 15:56:54 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 13:56:54 -0800 Subject: Excessive optimization (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: <4CF88835.4090606@tx.rr.com> References: <4CF8019A.30803@brouhaha.com> <4CF88835.4090606@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4CF967A6.1080209@brouhaha.com> Charlie Carothers wrote: > > I'm afraid I must disagree. What if, for my own nefarious purposes, I > need the N microseconds of delay achieved via the "spurious" for loop? > I know, code loop delays are generally a poor practice, but what does > one do if a delay is absolutely required before timer interrupts can > be enabled? What if there is no hardware timer (e.g. 8254) that can > be read periodically to time the delay? What if I am writing a quick > hardware test? > Disagree all you want, but the C language offers no guarantees about how long a loop (or anything else) takes to execute, so a compiler optimizing away an empty loop is perfectly valid. You can try compiling with optimizations off, but there's not really any guarantee with that either. If I had to have a delay of a known length, and had no timer available, I'd call an assembly language subroutine. You could try a more complicated loop in C: int i, j; j = 0; for (i = 1; i <= 100; i++) j += i; But a really clever compiler could still replace all of this with: int i, j; i = 101; j = 5050; Eric From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Dec 3 16:00:13 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 17:00:13 -0500 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CF9686D.7070209@verizon.net> On 12/03/2010 02:21 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>> Do you haappen to have the part number for that? And know of a supplier >>> that sells 1-off qunanitites. When I looked at the commpon suppliers in >>> the UK< I couldn't find any prototypiong-friemndly ARMs :-) >>> >> Farnell UK >> > That was, not suprisingly, the first place I looked. Alas the web site is > somwhat broken, in that if you look at microcotnrollers it will tell you > that there are of them (for a large) and then ask you to refine > the sarach by selecting from checklists. It's then that you discover that > while you can select DIP, PLCC, PQFP, SIOC, BGA, etc packages, the sum of > the numbers for all the package types is a lot less than. And you > can't seay 'I definetely do not want a BGA deivce). > > Mind you, the paper catalogue is not much better... > > -tony > > Around here, USA if I want a ARM to proto with I just go on the net and look for a board with the desired arm on it I bought one recently for $150 and the config was ARM9, 64meg ram, built in 256mb of flash with linux in it and the usual USB, Ethernet and an IO extension area. Plug in a USB flash of 16gb and you can bootstrap develop on it. Generally a decent P4 PC running linux makes a good development system as tools for arms are common and plenty of free stuff out there and linux for ARM (if you need a OS platform). I've seen boards in the 80$(US) to 300$us range. Generally you proto starting with that until the memory requirements are known and then design a board (or even ask the proto vendor to do a custom if its a volume build). Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 3 16:16:17 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 22:16:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: <4CF9686D.7070209@verizon.net> from "allison" at Dec 3, 10 05:00:13 pm Message-ID: > Around here, USA if I want a ARM to proto with I just go on the net and > look for a board with the desired arm on it I bought one recently for > $150 and the config was ARM9, 64meg ram, built in 256mb of flash with > linux in it and the usual USB, Ethernet and an IO extension area. > Plug in a USB flash of 16gb and you can bootstrap develop on it. Only 2 problems with me doing that : 1) $150 is far too expensive for one of my projects. I am used to microcontrollers costing a few pounds at msot 2) I don't want a pre-built board with peripherals I don't need on it. I am a great believeer in actually designin the hardware to suit the problem I am solving -tony From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Fri Dec 3 11:08:51 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 11:08:51 -0600 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: References: <48A1B7FE9926437B80ACF36143E2F7DC@andrewdesktop><20101129190657.GA28637@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4CF92423.2050206@tx.rr.com> On 12/2/2010 1:28 AM, Teo Zenios wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "joe lobocki" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 12:38 PM > Subject: Re: SCSI to IDE > > >> Well alright then, if its just a flame war I wont bother bringing it >> up. Just thought it would be an interesting idea, a way to keep the >> machines running in the future with a cheap media when scsi becomes >> unavailable or too expensive because of its rarity. >> >> Anyone who has come up with ideas, i'd encourage you to move forward >> with at least a theory or virtual model, if not a physical device. > > How hard would it be to make an adapter from SCSI (or laptop IDE) to SD > cards (the ones all these digital cameras use)? I figure there will be > millions of those things in the 256MB to several GB range (perfect for > old systems), they should be fast enough, small enough, and about > worthless plus easy to ship cheaply. People are using IDE to CF adapters > but it seems to be SD is more common and much smaller. > I believe if the appropriate pin is grounded on power up, the CF card interface is exactly an IDE interface. In this mode the adapter is just a couple of connectors and a bunch of conductors - usually etch of course. Thus the adapter is really just compensating for the connector differences. I think that is why they are relatively inexpensive. You're right about SD cards replacing CF. Not too long back I bought a good sized CF card for my still very serviceable Canon G3 camera since I fear the CF cards will shortly become more difficult to find. SD cards are attractive in many ways. For one thing, they can be accessed via an SPI interface which saves some I/O pins on that end. Since I really know nothing about SCSI, I don't know if that is a good approach for a SCSI/SD adapter or not. I wonder if there are any real time requirements in a SCSI interface that would be impacted by talking to the SD card in a bit serial fashion. Later, Charlie C. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Dec 3 16:20:00 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 20:20:00 -0200 Subject: SCSI to IDE References: Message-ID: <5041402249FE475A801F6AF4DB30EA9A@portajara> > Mind you, the paper catalogue is not much better... Exactely the same in Brazil. I have three of their catalogs :) From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Dec 3 15:34:44 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 16:34:44 -0500 Subject: TECO... In-Reply-To: <4CF7C198.8000500@softjar.se> References: <4CF7C198.8000500@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4CF96274.2000008@compsys.to> This answer is fairly long, so be prepared to read for a while. In summary, the ONLY point I disagree about with respect to TECO (based on the test of TECO I just made under RT-11 V36 of TECO) is that TECO ignores zero bytes when it writes out a file. Non-zero control characters are retained, but any binary data with 16 bit integer values less than decimal 255 will have an upper byte of zero. That upper byte of zero will be lost when the block of binary data is written to a file. >Johnny Billquist wrote: >> OK!! I understand completely!! If anyone else who is interested >> does not >> understand, please ask some questions. >> >> If the ASCII data in question was not in the first buffer, than I assume >> that >> something like the TECO command: >> $$ >> was what you used to find the start of the file which you had lost. > > Well, yes and no. > What you actually do is: > ERfilename$_string$$EWnewfile$HPW$EC$EX$$ > (assuming that all the data you are interested in are in the buffer, > otherwise include P commands in there to the appropriate amount, > before the HPW.) > > If you really want to use A to append more data from the disk, you > should probably not use 9999K to dump the current buffer, but use HK > instead. > Also, if a search fails, you'll aready be at 0, so no reason for the J > command. I was attempting to use the MOST obvious and least difficult TECO commands. I agree that your commands are correct and perhaps more efficient. >> By the way, KED can do the same, but is limited to devices (I assume >> that >> you must have done a non-file-structured open, i.e. ERdev:$$) that >> are less >> than 32768 blocks. Since I have never had occasion to edit a full MSCP >> device of 65535 blocks, I just never noticed the limitation. This >> restriction >> for KED also applies to files. So KED can INSPECT a logical device >> which >> is 32767 blocks or less or an RL02 device, but no physical device or >> file >> larger than 32767 blocks in total. > > TECO itself will not care, so that would be a limitation from the > RT-11 point of view, in that case. TECO will serially read a file (or > device) from start to finish, and don't really care about the file > position information as such. Agreed! I was attempting to point out that in some cases, RT-11 KED will not work and why. >> More than likely, you just found the source ASCII text you were looking >> for and wrote >> that to the floppy file using something similar the the TECO command >> that I suggested. >> TECO is not designed nor able to show individual words of a specific >> block as SIPP >> is able to do. > > Not sure what SIPP is, but TECO can handle, and display, anything. It > was designed to be able to deal with any kind of information, not just > text. In RT-11, SIPP.SAV is the Save Image Patch Program. SIPP is able to access ANY word (or byte) of a file by the offset from the start of the file - or a base value specified by the user when using a BASE VALUE is useful. I don't know about TECO under RSX-11, but under RT-11, both TECO and KED ignore bytes of ZERO or NULL. I just did a short test under RT-11. I used KED to create a file with 4 lines of "abcdefghijklmn" each followed by for a total of 64 non-zero characters. I used the DUMP.SAV program to confirm my assumption. The rest of the file was all zeros. I then used SIPP.SAV to zero the "cd" characters in the first and second line. I again used DUMP.SAV to confirm that was what had been done. That left 2 bytes of zero on the first and second line. I then made an exact binary copy of the file and used TECO (EBTST.TXT$$) to edit the file. As expected, I was able to find any character on any line and display the character. However, when I did an exit "" from TECO (without changing anything), the zeros in the first and second line had been ignored by TECO and (in effect) shifted to the end of the non-zero text. KED did the exact same thing. Maybe I am missing something, but I would assume that most file structures also contain any number of zero bytes which would prevent, under RT-11, TECO from being used to correct such data. I agree that, as per the example, when a user is searching for an ASCII file, TECO and KED are both capable of finding the specific files in any number of blocks by searching for specified ASCII strings. But, RT-11 TECO at least, will not write out the data from a corrupted file structure BYTE by BYTE when any of the BYTES are zero. ONLY RT-11 SIPP, in my experience, can do that, In an additional illustration, RT-11 supports READ ONLY files. In fact, the Resident Monitor in RT-11 requires only two additional instructions to check the READ ONLY status of a file and abort any write requests. BUT, DEC never bothered to enhance PIP and DIR to display and change the READ ONLY bit in the file status word in a disk directory. On a number of rare occasions when I needed a READ ONLY file, for testing my code, I used SIPP to modify the status word for a file in the disk directory. Neither TECO nor KED can even begin to easily look for the status words in a disk directory and neither can possibly write out the new status word even if it is correctly modified since any zero bytes will be ignored. I believe you are aware of this aspect of how TECO and KED (at least for RT-11) treat zero bytes in a file, but I suggest that you may have confused anyone else who reads this discussion. So while both TECO and KED can definitely (and easily) search for the strings in a file somewhere on a disk, both are then limited to making a copy of the text that is found (ignoring any imbedded zero bytes) and writing out the text to a device with a valid file structure. >>> >TECO can certainly read disk block N, and having done that it can >>> surely >>> >mangle that disk block; what I'm not sure of is whether it can then >>> >write that block out to the required disk block. >> >> I really don't think so. TECO can, as far as I know, work only with >> ASCII text strings. > > No. TECO works perfectly fine with any kind of binary data. Here is where we disagree. Maybe it is RT-11, but any zero bytes are ignored and I suggest that zero bytes are included in "any kind of binary data". >> Binary data can't be managed easily, if at all, by TECO such as what >> SIPP can do. > > No. TECO handles binary data just fine. > > Whenever you enter text, all characters are allowed. And by all > characters, I really mean all characters. Control characters are just > as welcome as printable ones. A few characters have special meaning in > TECO, such as ESC, ^C, and a few more. ESC can be used by instead > setting another character as the delimiter for the search string. > Other special control characters can be inserted by prefixing them > with ^Q, which means that the next character should be taken > literally, and not be interpreted. For most characters though, nothing > special is needed at all, and you can just enter them in your search > string. Again, we agree EXCEPT for zero bytes. This means that any binary data with any zero bytes (and in my experience binary data almost always seems to contain some small 16 bit integer values less than 256 - which means an upper byte of zero) will not be written out correctly block by block. Even one or two missing zero bytes completely changes a block of binary data. Perhaps TECO under RSX-11 does not have this problem. Can you check? > In the case you don't really want to type the control characters as > such, you can create the search string before using it, and then just > suck it into your search string as well. > > In addition to this, you also have the powerful pattern matching of > search strings, that TECO gives you. So you can say that any character > should match at a specific position, and then match whatever comes > after more specifically as well (or any number of other potential > pattern matching schemes you can think of). TECO is definitely MUCH more powerful than KED in respect of searching. Indeed, on a few rare situations when I have a dozen or more of a string to change, I use TECO. Can you please specify if TECO under RSX-11 retains or ignores zero bytes in a file when it exits after an initial EBTST.TXT$$ command. If TECO under RSX-11 retains zero bytes, then I agree that TECO can then be effectively used for patching binary data. In addition, if RSX-11 is able to run RT-11 programs in some fashion (as for example RSTS/E is able to run RT-11 programs under its RT-11 RTS), then you can also use SIPP to make true binary modifications to a disk or file. Jerome Fine From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 3 16:42:11 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 14:42:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Excessive optimization (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: References: <4CF8019A.30803@brouhaha.com> <4CF88835.4090606@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20101203143209.I98997@shell.lmi.net> > > I'm afraid I must disagree. What if, for my own nefarious purposes, I > > need the N microseconds of delay achieved via the "spurious" for loop? On Fri, 3 Dec 2010, Richard wrote: > Put that code in a compilation unit that is compiled with > optimizations turned off. Going way back to where this thread first forked off, . . . Microsoft's first optimizing C compiler DID NOT provide any simple way to turn optimizations off. I've heard of a few other first attempts at optimizing compilers that did likewise. The repercussions were that the next version of that compiler added the capability of turning off optimizations. (also s'posedly typical of second attempts at optimizing compilers) Whether a programmer or a compiler produce better code would seem to depend on how well one can get the compiler to understand all of the details of what one WANTS the code to do, and just how weird THAT might be. Some things, such as deliberately wasting time, or polling a memory location that is influenced externally, need additional explanation for the compiler to understand not to optimize them out. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Dec 3 16:37:25 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 20:37:25 -0200 Subject: SCSI to IDE References: <48A1B7FE9926437B80ACF36143E2F7DC@andrewdesktop><20101129190657.GA28637@n0jcf.net> <4CF92423.2050206@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4618B2BE3DB2465EBF7E6C1223DB8664@portajara> > SD cards are attractive in many ways. For one thing, they can be accessed > via an SPI interface which saves some I/O pins on that end. Since I really > know nothing about SCSI, I don't know if that is a good approach for a > SCSI/SD adapter or not. I wonder if there are any real time requirements > in a SCSI interface that would be impacted by talking to the SD card in a > bit serial fashion. HDSD cards are speedy enough to be used as SCSI drives. I think how command queueing would work, but being a "for fun" project, I believe things can be implemented, one by one. I'm studying whatever I can find about SCSI. Seems I'll dive deep on this project as soon as I can get my lab back. I want to have my name remembered by the comunity he he he :o) From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Dec 3 16:43:08 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 14:43:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: 42 (Was: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <20101203134616.U98997@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <20101202151325.T65761@shell.lmi.net> <4CF838CB.1020206@brouhaha.com> <20101202163901.Y65761@shell.lmi.net> <1291338072.1742.21.camel@ryoko> <20101202170717.V65761@shell.lmi.net> <1291343022.5198.1.camel@ryoko> <20101203134616.U98997@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Dec 2010, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Douglas Adams >>> "Restaurant At The End Of The Universe" >>> (of "Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy") > > On Fri, 3 Dec 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> Ah -- that explains it. I really must get around to reading the other >> Hitchhiker's Guide books at some point... > > I'd recommend them, assuming that your personal tastes run in those > directions. > > The original BBC TV production was great! > > The books are great! Five volumes in the trilogy, and a sixth book (by > somebody else) that is a moderately good attempt to mimic Adams' style. > Adams' other books that are NOT part of the series are also worth reading. > > The Disney movie: I gave away my DVD. The BBC TV production was good, the BBC Radio Production was FANTASTIC, the books were great. I didn't even bother to see the Disney movie. Zane From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Dec 3 16:47:31 2010 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 14:47:31 -0800 Subject: Excessive optimization (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: <20101203143209.I98997@shell.lmi.net> References: <4CF8019A.30803@brouhaha.com> <4CF88835.4090606@tx.rr.com> <20101203143209.I98997@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Dec 3, 2010, at 2:42 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> I'm afraid I must disagree. What if, for my own nefarious purposes, I >>> need the N microseconds of delay achieved via the "spurious" for loop? > > On Fri, 3 Dec 2010, Richard wrote: >> Put that code in a compilation unit that is compiled with >> optimizations turned off. > > > Whether a programmer or a compiler produce better code would seem to > depend on how well one can get the compiler to understand all of the > details of what one WANTS the code to do, and just how weird THAT might > be. Some things, such as deliberately wasting time, or polling a memory > location that is influenced externally, need additional explanation for > the compiler to understand not to optimize them out. See my previous post. Using the volatile keyword on a variable requires the compiler to read/write it as expressed in the program (ie if in a loop, the compiler can't just read it once and be done). If the compiler doesn't do that, it's a bug if it in any way claimed be a standards compliant compiler. TTFN - Guy From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Dec 3 16:58:13 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 14:58:13 -0800 Subject: OT: 42 (Was: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <20101202151325.T65761@shell.lmi.net> <4CF838CB.1020206@brouhaha.com> <20101202163901.Y65761@shell.lmi.net> <1291338072.1742.21.camel@ryoko> <20101202170717.V65761@shell.lmi.net> <1291343022.5198.1.camel@ryoko> <20101203134616.U98997@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy > Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 2:43 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: OT: 42 (Was: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive > optimization) > > > > On Fri, 3 Dec 2010, Fred Cisin wrote: > > >>> Douglas Adams > >>> "Restaurant At The End Of The Universe" > >>> (of "Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy") > > > > On Fri, 3 Dec 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: > >> Ah -- that explains it. I really must get around to reading the > other > >> Hitchhiker's Guide books at some point... > > > > I'd recommend them, assuming that your personal tastes run in those > > directions. > > > > The original BBC TV production was great! > > > > The books are great! Five volumes in the trilogy, and a sixth book > (by > > somebody else) that is a moderately good attempt to mimic Adams' > style. > > Adams' other books that are NOT part of the series are also worth > reading. > > > > The Disney movie: I gave away my DVD. > > The BBC TV production was good, the BBC Radio Production was FANTASTIC, > the > books were great. I didn't even bother to see the Disney movie. > > Zane > Are you talking about the 2005 production? That was done by Touchstone, not Disney. My daughter loves that movie. Of course, she's ten.... The original stories are wonderful and belong in any true geek's collection. "Ford, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it." -- Ian From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 3 17:10:51 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 15:10:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Excessive optimization (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: References: <4CF8019A.30803@brouhaha.com> <4CF88835.4090606@tx.rr.com> <20101203143209.I98997@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20101203150321.R3233@shell.lmi.net> > > Whether a programmer or a compiler produce better code would seem to > > depend on how well one can get the compiler to understand all of the > > details of what one WANTS the code to do, and just how weird THAT might > > be. Some things, such as deliberately wasting time, or polling a memory > > location that is influenced externally, need additional explanation for > > the compiler to understand not to optimize them out. On Fri, 3 Dec 2010, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > See my previous post. Using the volatile keyword on a variable requires > the compiler to read/write it as expressed in the program (ie if in a > loop, the compiler can't just read it once and be done). If the > compiler doesn't do that, it's a bug if it in any way claimed be a > standards compliant compiler. You are absolutely correct. If there is a VOLATILE keyword, and the compiler ignored it, then that is certainly a bug. There is certainly no argument about THAT. But, see MY previous posts. My ORIGINAL post (the origin of this sub-thread) was that the first attempt at an optimizing compiler from Microsoft DID NOT HAVE a VOLATILE keyword. The second attempt, as would be expected, added the VOLATILE keyword, as well as a few others to permit over-riding the oprimizations. "Standards compliant"?? I'm talking about before that, when "standards compliant" was a CLAIM that it was "K&R". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 3 17:15:39 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 15:15:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: 42 (Was: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <20101202151325.T65761@shell.lmi.net> <4CF838CB.1020206@brouhaha.com> <20101202163901.Y65761@shell.lmi.net> <1291338072.1742.21.camel@ryoko> <20101202170717.V65761@shell.lmi.net> <1291343022.5198.1.camel@ryoko> <20101203134616.U98997@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20101203151135.C3233@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 3 Dec 2010, Ian King wrote: > Are you talking about the 2005 production? That was done by Touchstone, > not Disney. My daughter loves that movie. Of course, she's ten.... I just couldn't get past the tendency to make Marvin "cute". > The original stories are wonderful and belong in any true geek's collection. > "Ford, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it." -- Ian "It's times like this that I wish that I would have listened to what my mother said." "Why? What did she say?" "I don't know, I didn't listen." "I've always thought that there was something fundamentally wrong with the universe". ". . . so amazingly primitive that they still think that digital watches are a good idea." -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Dec 3 17:20:31 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 15:20:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: 42 (Was: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: from Ian King at "Dec 3, 10 02:58:13 pm" Message-ID: <201012032320.oB3NKVUH024490@floodgap.com> > Are you talking about the 2005 production? That was done by Touchstone, not > Disney. My daughter loves that movie. Of course, she's ten.... Touchstone *is* Disney (it's just the 'less kidsy' side of the building). That said, Adams I believe had some role in the script, though I'm sure he took the extent and nature of his contribution to the grave. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- 1-GHz Pentium-III + Java + XSLT == 1-MHz 6502. -- Craig Bruce -------------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 3 17:21:17 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 15:21:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101203151818.B3233@shell.lmi.net> > > >> > "Baby duck syndrome" > > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ On Fri, 3 Dec 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > Oh right... I don't think I suffer from that. The first disk OS I used > was not suprisingly CP/M. And yet I find unix much nicer than, say, RT11 > of VMS. The first assembly language I learnt was Z80 (and SC/MP at about > the same time), but I find 6809 and PDP11 assembly to be a lot more pleasant. Some could argue that our preference for "obsolete" electronic technology is a manifestation of a "baby duck syndrome". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Dec 3 17:22:30 2010 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 15:22:30 -0800 Subject: Excessive optimization (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: <20101203150321.R3233@shell.lmi.net> References: <4CF8019A.30803@brouhaha.com> <4CF88835.4090606@tx.rr.com> <20101203143209.I98997@shell.lmi.net> <20101203150321.R3233@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Dec 3, 2010, at 3:10 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Whether a programmer or a compiler produce better code would seem to >>> depend on how well one can get the compiler to understand all of the >>> details of what one WANTS the code to do, and just how weird THAT might >>> be. Some things, such as deliberately wasting time, or polling a memory >>> location that is influenced externally, need additional explanation for >>> the compiler to understand not to optimize them out. > > On Fri, 3 Dec 2010, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> See my previous post. Using the volatile keyword on a variable requires >> the compiler to read/write it as expressed in the program (ie if in a >> loop, the compiler can't just read it once and be done). If the >> compiler doesn't do that, it's a bug if it in any way claimed be a >> standards compliant compiler. > > You are absolutely correct. > If there is a VOLATILE keyword, and the compiler ignored it, then that is > certainly a bug. There is certainly no argument about THAT. > > > But, see MY previous posts. Some of these threads go on long enough it's hard to remember how it started. ;-) > > My ORIGINAL post (the origin of this sub-thread) was that the first > attempt at an optimizing compiler from Microsoft DID NOT HAVE a VOLATILE > keyword. That was a mistake! > > > "Standards compliant"?? > I'm talking about before that, when "standards compliant" was a CLAIM that > it was "K&R". One of (many of) the problems with "K&R" was that it assumed that there would be no significant optimization. I'd argue that this was a bit short sighted since at the time there were a number of optimizing compilers out. Some of them were used for systems implementation and had to deal with this very issue. I actually recall the surprise in the early days of BLISS-11 when it optimized out a whole chunk of I/O polling code...it then had to be "taught" about PDP-11 MMIO and that it had to do all of the loads/stores as written. TTFN - Guy From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Dec 3 17:29:17 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 23:29:17 +0000 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <1291418957.12310.6.camel@ryoko> On Fri, 2010-12-03 at 11:32 +0100, Christian Corti wrote: > On Fri, 3 Dec 2010, Kevin Schoedel wrote: > > Also, > > "TF"[!b] > > This is a great example! > Now let's guess why this works, but not "FT"[b] The compiler returns either 0 or 1 for the unary inversion operator. The C standard dictates that 0 is false, anything else is true. Problem is, 'b' can contain damn near anything and still be true. So "FT"[b] with b=0x80 -- b is still true, but you get an access violation, or possibly just a crap result. If your boolean is a true boolean (i.e. only 0 and 1 are valid values, for false and true respectively) then the code *will* work. So you use the unary negation operator, which turns your 0x80 (true) into 0 (false). "TF"[0] is "T", because the original value was true. Similarly, !0 = 1, and "TF"[1] is "F". However: the compiler would still be correct to use the value 123 instead of 1, thus that code may not work... So it's compiler dependent, but most compilers use 0/1 for boolean results, meaning you might not spot the Big Nasty Bug until much, much later. A better way: b?'T':'F' If b is true, then this statement evaluates to 'T', otherwise it evaluates to 'F'. Just it does it without tricky pointer math, and is more likely to work across different compilers. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From lynchaj at yahoo.com Fri Dec 3 17:42:37 2010 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 18:42:37 -0500 Subject: SCSI to IDE Message-ID: <1098C4D5A81446439E77863BD4203626@andrewdesktop> [snip] 2) I don't want a pre-built board with peripherals I don't need on it. I am a great believeer in actually designin the hardware to suit the problem I am solving -tony -----REPLY----- Hi, Please check this approach to a SCSI to IDE and SD interface My design for the SCSI to IDE and SD interface is just the basics: Z80, RAM, ROM, UART, IDE, SD, and SCSI controller. http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=SCSI2IDE Everything fits comfortably on a Eurocard PCB. All the part are commonly available for about $20-$30 total. Thanks Andrew Lynch From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Dec 3 18:05:31 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 18:05:31 -0600 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: <20101203151818.B3233@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101203151818.B3233@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201012040007.oB4077tQ092776@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 05:21 PM 12/3/2010, Fred Cisin wrote: >Some could argue that our preference for "obsolete" electronic technology >is a manifestation of a "baby duck syndrome". I sometimes think it is due to the high price of equipment in the old days. Our young minds perceived these machines as being unimaginably expensive, something few single people could ever own and operate. Now they're scrap and you can own one. What a deal! - John From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Dec 3 18:21:26 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 16:21:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: <201012040007.oB4077tQ092776@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <20101203151818.B3233@shell.lmi.net> <201012040007.oB4077tQ092776@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Dec 2010, John Foust wrote: > At 05:21 PM 12/3/2010, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Some could argue that our preference for "obsolete" electronic technology >> is a manifestation of a "baby duck syndrome". > > I sometimes think it is due to the high price of equipment in the > old days. Our young minds perceived these machines as being > unimaginably expensive, something few single people could ever > own and operate. Now they're scrap and you can own one. > What a deal! I think that's a lot of it, stuff we could never hope to own when it was new. For example, I used to have most of a VAX that was originally $250k, and have I don't know how many Workstations that would have been in the $20k range. My concern as I've said many times over the past several years is the high cost of owning this junk. It takes space to store it, for a lot of us, it takes a *LOT* of space. I have several hundred square feet given over to it, and I know there are people with a *LOT* more than I have. It's not just computer gear that falls into this catagory. I wanted a Hasselblad for about 30 years, now they're "almost affordable", and I own one. It helps it takes great photo's! :-) Zane From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 3 18:36:07 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2010 00:36:07 +0000 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: <1098C4D5A81446439E77863BD4203626@andrewdesktop> References: <1098C4D5A81446439E77863BD4203626@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <4CF98CF7.7040702@aurigae.demon.co.uk> On 03/12/2010 23:42, Andrew Lynch wrote: > > Hi, > > Please check this approach to a SCSI to IDE and SD interface > My design for the SCSI to IDE and SD interface is just the basics: > Z80, RAM, ROM, UART, IDE, SD, and SCSI controller. > > http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=SCSI2IDE > > Everything fits comfortably on a Eurocard PCB. > All the part are commonly available for about $20-$30 total. Is the Z53C80 still available new ? If so from where ? Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From michael_holley at mentor.com Fri Dec 3 18:38:23 2010 From: michael_holley at mentor.com (Holley, Michael) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 16:38:23 -0800 Subject: Data I/O Unipak 2B ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1775CC70CD47484EA68ACCD903F02CB30227238B@na3-mail.mgc.mentorg.com> Steven I have a 315B103 UniPak 2B cartridge, it does Intel 8051 microprocessors. I am in the Seattle area. Contact me off list. Michael Holley -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of alan canning Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 11:56 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Data I/O Unipak 2B ? I just bought a Data I/O 29B with an Unipak 2B from Epay. Everything seems okay BUT the pinout cartridge ( the little module that plugs in the end of the 2B ) is missing. I suspect that all it has is some kind of simple interlock like two pins tied together to tell the Data I/O the cartridge is there ( probably so you can't run the unit with that HAZARDOUS 20 volts on the open connector. Anybody know how to get around this or fake it ? The unit won't do squat without it.... Have not been able to find a schematic of the 2B or the pinout cartridge. Thanks. Best regards, Steven From spc at conman.org Fri Dec 3 18:52:48 2010 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 19:52:48 -0500 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <1291418957.12310.6.camel@ryoko> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <1291418957.12310.6.camel@ryoko> Message-ID: <20101204005248.GA24023@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Philip Pemberton once stated: > On Fri, 2010-12-03 at 11:32 +0100, Christian Corti wrote: > > On Fri, 3 Dec 2010, Kevin Schoedel wrote: > > > Also, > > > "TF"[!b] > > > > This is a great example! > > Now let's guess why this works, but not "FT"[b] > > The compiler returns either 0 or 1 for the unary inversion operator. The > C standard dictates that 0 is false, anything else is true. Problem is, > 'b' can contain damn near anything and still be true. > > So "FT"[b] with b=0x80 -- b is still true, but you get an access > violation, or possibly just a crap result. If your boolean is a true > boolean (i.e. only 0 and 1 are valid values, for false and true > respectively) then the code *will* work. > > So you use the unary negation operator, which turns your 0x80 (true) > into 0 (false). "TF"[0] is "T", because the original value was true. > Similarly, !0 = 1, and "TF"[1] is "F". > > However: the compiler would still be correct to use the value 123 > instead of 1, thus that code may not work... So it's compiler dependent, > but most compilers use 0/1 for boolean results, meaning you might not > spot the Big Nasty Bug until much, much later. > > A better way: > b?'T':'F' > If b is true, then this statement evaluates to 'T', otherwise it > evaluates to 'F'. Just it does it without tricky pointer math, and is > more likely to work across different compilers. Of course, there's always "FT"[!!b] -spc (which forces b to be 0 or 1) From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Dec 3 19:27:34 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 17:27:34 -0800 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <1291418957.12310.6.camel@ryoko> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <1291418957.12310.6.camel@ryoko> Message-ID: <4CF99906.8060608@brouhaha.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > A better way: > b?'T':'F' [...] > Just it does it without tricky pointer math, and is > more likely to work across different compilers. You've lost me on how that's better than "TF"[!b], or why it would be "more likely to work across different compilers". There's no tricky pointer math to it. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Dec 3 19:30:09 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 17:30:09 -0800 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: <4CF98CF7.7040702@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <1098C4D5A81446439E77863BD4203626@andrewdesktop> <4CF98CF7.7040702@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4CF999A1.1010101@brouhaha.com> Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > Is the Z53C80 still available new ? If so from where ? It is still made by Zilog, and still stocked by Digikey. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 3 19:33:25 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 17:33:25 -0800 Subject: Excessive optimization (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4CF929E5.299.1B744D1@cclist.sydex.com> Heck, if you're in serious need of a headache, wrap your mind around some of the IOCCC winner submissions: http://www0.us.ioccc.org/years.html The last samples I can find are from 2005 here: http://www.mailcom.com/ioccc/winners2005.tgz The 2007 winners were apparently selected, but the code not made public. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Dec 3 19:39:32 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2010 01:39:32 +0000 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <4CF99906.8060608@brouhaha.com> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <1291418957.12310.6.camel@ryoko> <4CF99906.8060608@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <1291426772.13642.0.camel@ryoko> On Fri, 2010-12-03 at 17:27 -0800, Eric Smith wrote: > You've lost me on how that's better than "TF"[!b], or why it would be > "more likely to work across different compilers". There's no tricky > pointer math to it. OK, tricky pointer math wasn't the right way to put it... What I meant was, it doesn't rely on the compiler returning '0' for a false Boolean evaluation, and '1' for a True evaluation. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 3 20:04:57 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2010 02:04:57 +0000 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: <4CF999A1.1010101@brouhaha.com> References: <1098C4D5A81446439E77863BD4203626@andrewdesktop> <4CF98CF7.7040702@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4CF999A1.1010101@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CF9A1C9.5020907@aurigae.demon.co.uk> On 04/12/2010 01:30, Eric Smith wrote: > Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > > Is the Z53C80 still available new ? If so from where ? > > It is still made by Zilog, and still stocked by Digikey. Humm, all hits searching for it on digikey.co.uk list it as non-stock, the minimum order number of any of the parts listed is 175 chips, so dunno how practical using that is going to be. So looks like I'll stick with the AVR and a bunch of LS for now :) Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Dec 3 20:24:32 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 21:24:32 -0500 Subject: Excessive optimization (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: <4CF929E5.299.1B744D1@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4CF929E5.299.1B744D1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CF9A660.8090002@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Heck, if you're in serious need of a headache, wrap your mind around > some of the IOCCC winner submissions: > > http://www0.us.ioccc.org/years.html > > The last samples I can find are from 2005 here: > > http://www.mailcom.com/ioccc/winners2005.tgz > > The 2007 winners were apparently selected, but the code not made > public. My personal favorite of all the IOCCC winners is 1984/Mullender. I've always thought that was a particularly clever way of screwing with the judges. Peace... Sridhar From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Dec 3 20:34:55 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 21:34:55 -0500 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: <4CF999A1.1010101@brouhaha.com> References: <1098C4D5A81446439E77863BD4203626@andrewdesktop> <4CF98CF7.7040702@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4CF999A1.1010101@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CF9A8CF.4010009@verizon.net> On 12/03/2010 08:30 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > > Is the Z53C80 still available new ? If so from where ? > > It is still made by Zilog, and still stocked by Digikey. > > Eric > > Look again, they list it but have zero stock. That however is certainly a key part if you wnat to do the SCSI as minimal parts count. However, watch out as the Nmos part and the Cmos part are not completely interchangeable due to implementation oddities. If memory serves the 53C part is also preferred over the NMOS as less buggy. If you want to know how to hook it up to a z80 see the AmproLB+ schematics. Allison From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Dec 3 20:39:40 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 18:39:40 -0800 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <1291426772.13642.0.camel@ryoko> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <1291418957.12310.6.camel@ryoko> <4CF99906.8060608@brouhaha.com> <1291426772.13642.0.camel@ryoko> Message-ID: <4CF9A9EC.9080708@brouhaha.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > OK, tricky pointer math wasn't the right way to put it... What I meant > was, it doesn't rely on the compiler returning '0' for a false Boolean > evaluation, and '1' for a True evaluation. If the compiler produces code that returns anything other than 0 or 1 for the result of the unary logical negation operator, the compiler is seriously broken, as the standard explicitly requires the result to be 0 or 1. See IEE/IEC 9899 (1999) section 6.5.3.3 paragraph 5. Same for all of the relational operators (6.5.8 paragraph 6), equality operators (6.5.9 paragraph 3), logical AND operator (6.5.13 paragraph 3), and logical OR operator (6.5.14 paragraph 3). Eric From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 3 20:46:31 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 18:46:31 -0800 Subject: Excessive optimization (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: <4CF9A660.8090002@gmail.com> References: , <4CF929E5.299.1B744D1@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CF9A660.8090002@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CF93B07.30615.1FA3395@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Dec 2010 at 21:24, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > My personal favorite of all the IOCCC winners is 1984/Mullender. > > I've always thought that was a particularly clever way of screwing > with the judges. I note that the rules get tighter and tighter each year--for good reason! applin/1986 made me chuckle. A program that works in C, FORTRAN and sh without modification. natori/2000 is kind of cute and darned near opaque. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Dec 3 20:47:33 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 18:47:33 -0800 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: <4CF9A1C9.5020907@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <1098C4D5A81446439E77863BD4203626@andrewdesktop> <4CF98CF7.7040702@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4CF999A1.1010101@brouhaha.com> <4CF9A1C9.5020907@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4CF9ABC5.6000608@brouhaha.com> I wrote about the Z85C30: > It is still made by Zilog, and still stocked by Digikey. Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > Humm, all hits searching for it on digikey.co.uk list it as non-stock, > the minimum order number of any of the parts listed is 175 chips, > so dunno how practical using that is going to be. I use digikey.com, not digikey.co.uk, and see eight variants in stock (three DIP, five PLCC), all with a minimum quantity of one. The 8 MHz DIP version is USD 8.79 for quantity one, and there are 700 in stock. The also have the Z85230, which is an enhanced part. In small quantities, it is about twice as expensive as the Z85C30. Eric From lynchaj at yahoo.com Fri Dec 3 20:52:47 2010 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 21:52:47 -0500 Subject: SCSI to IDE Message-ID: <28927FF763FC495F91D4307FA894435F@andrewdesktop> Is the Z53C80 still available new ? If so from where ? Cheers. Phill. -----REPLY------ Try findchips.com Digikey, Quest Components, Area51ESG, eBay, etc. You might need to get an RFQ. Thanks! Andrew Lynch PS, if you or anyone else is interested in helping/developing on making this project a reality, please join me on vintage-computer.com forums. I am assessing interest in this as an N8VEM project and need some volunteer builders to launch the project. The schematic, PCB layout, and parts list is ready for a prototype order which will happen once there is enough builders involved to sustain the project. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Dec 3 21:13:08 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 19:13:08 -0800 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: <4CF9A8CF.4010009@verizon.net> References: <1098C4D5A81446439E77863BD4203626@andrewdesktop> <4CF98CF7.7040702@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4CF999A1.1010101@brouhaha.com> <4CF9A8CF.4010009@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4CF9B1C4.5020300@brouhaha.com> Dyslexia strikes again. I thought you were looking for the 85C30, not the 53C80. Sigh. I doubt that anyone makes the 5380 or 53C80 anymore. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Dec 3 21:37:30 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2010 03:37:30 +0000 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <4CF9A9EC.9080708@brouhaha.com> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <1291418957.12310.6.camel@ryoko> <4CF99906.8060608@brouhaha.com> <1291426772.13642.0.camel@ryoko> <4CF9A9EC.9080708@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <1291433850.13642.4.camel@ryoko> On Fri, 2010-12-03 at 18:39 -0800, Eric Smith wrote: > If the compiler produces code that returns anything other than 0 or 1 > for the result of the unary logical negation operator, the compiler is > seriously broken, as the standard explicitly requires the result to be 0 > or 1. See IEE/IEC 9899 (1999) section 6.5.3.3 paragraph 5. > > Same for all of the relational operators (6.5.8 paragraph 6), equality > operators (6.5.9 paragraph 3), logical AND operator (6.5.13 paragraph > 3), and logical OR operator (6.5.14 paragraph 3). Point duly noted... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Dec 3 22:50:06 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 23:50:06 -0500 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <4CF9A9EC.9080708@brouhaha.com> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <1291418957.12310.6.camel@ryoko> <4CF99906.8060608@brouhaha.com> <1291426772.13642.0.camel@ryoko> <4CF9A9EC.9080708@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CF9C87E.4080103@gmail.com> Eric Smith wrote: > If the compiler produces code that returns anything other than 0 or 1 > for the result of the unary logical negation operator, the compiler is > seriously broken, as the standard explicitly requires the result to be 0 > or 1. See IEE/IEC 9899 (1999) section 6.5.3.3 paragraph 5. > > Same for all of the relational operators (6.5.8 paragraph 6), equality > operators (6.5.9 paragraph 3), logical AND operator (6.5.13 paragraph > 3), and logical OR operator (6.5.14 paragraph 3). That's a pretty new standard. What did older C standards say on the subject? Peace... Sridhar From schoedel at kw.igs.net Fri Dec 3 23:06:22 2010 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 00:06:22 -0500 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <4CF9C87E.4080103@gmail.com> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <1291418957.12310.6.camel@ryoko> <4CF99906.8060608@brouhaha.com> <1291426772.13642.0.camel@ryoko> <4CF9A9EC.9080708@brouhaha.com> <4CF9C87E.4080103@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 11:50 pm -0500 2010/12/03, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >Eric Smith wrote: >> If the compiler produces code that returns anything other than 0 or 1 >> for the result of the unary logical negation operator, the compiler is >> seriously broken, as the standard explicitly requires the result to be 0 >> [...] > >That's a pretty new standard. What did older C standards say on the >subject? >From the May 1975 version of the _C Reference Manual_ at : 7.2.4 ! expression The result of the logical negation operator ! is 1 if the value of the expression is 0, 0 if the value of the expression is non-zero. -- Kevin Schoedel VA3TCS From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Dec 4 02:07:55 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2010 00:07:55 -0800 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <4CF9C87E.4080103@gmail.com> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <1291418957.12310.6.camel@ryoko> <4CF99906.8060608@brouhaha.com> <1291426772.13642.0.camel@ryoko> <4CF9A9EC.9080708@brouhaha.com> <4CF9C87E.4080103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CF9F6DB.2060107@brouhaha.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > That's a pretty new standard. What did older > C standards say on the subject? The same thing. I just don't have them handy to give specific section references. From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Fri Dec 3 22:50:18 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 22:50:18 -0600 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: <20101203151818.B3233@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101203151818.B3233@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CF9C88A.2080703@tx.rr.com> On 12/3/2010 5:21 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>>> "Baby duck syndrome" >>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > On Fri, 3 Dec 2010, Tony Duell wrote: >> Oh right... I don't think I suffer from that. The first disk OS I used >> was not suprisingly CP/M. And yet I find unix much nicer than, say, RT11 >> of VMS. The first assembly language I learnt was Z80 (and SC/MP at about >> the same time), but I find 6809 and PDP11 assembly to be a lot more pleasant. > > Some could argue that our preference for "obsolete" electronic technology > is a manifestation of a "baby duck syndrome". > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > Quack, quack. Charlie C. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat Dec 4 04:16:08 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 11:16:08 +0100 (CET) Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <20101204005248.GA24023@brevard.conman.org> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <1291418957.12310.6.camel@ryoko> <20101204005248.GA24023@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Dec 2010, Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Philip Pemberton once stated: Really? His posting is missing in cctalk... >> On Fri, 2010-12-03 at 11:32 +0100, Christian Corti wrote: >>> On Fri, 3 Dec 2010, Kevin Schoedel wrote: >>>> Also, >>>> "TF"[!b] >>> >>> This is a great example! >>> Now let's guess why this works, but not "FT"[b] >> [...] >> So you use the unary negation operator, which turns your 0x80 (true) >> into 0 (false). "TF"[0] is "T", because the original value was true. >> Similarly, !0 = 1, and "TF"[1] is "F". Right. >> However: the compiler would still be correct to use the value 123 >> instead of 1, thus that code may not work... So it's compiler dependent, Indeed, it's compiler dependent. > Of course, there's always "FT"[!!b] This doesn't change much because !!123 may still be 123 instead of 1. Christian From spc at conman.org Sat Dec 4 04:37:10 2010 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 05:37:10 -0500 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <1291418957.12310.6.camel@ryoko> <20101204005248.GA24023@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20101204103710.GB24023@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Christian Corti once stated: > > > Of course, there's always "FT"[!!b] > > This doesn't change much because !!123 may still be 123 instead of 1. Nope. !b will turn 0 to 1, and anything not 0 to 0. !!-1 = !(!-1) = !(0) = 1 !!123 = !(!123) = !(0) = 1 !!0 = !(!0) = !(1) = 0 -spc From lproven at gmail.com Sat Dec 4 06:25:35 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 12:25:35 +0000 Subject: Editor bindings [was RE: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?] In-Reply-To: References: <20101201140346.S26310@shell.lmi.net> <201012022156.oB2LuBBm028786@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4CF81AA2.5070702@vaxen.net> <20101202142210.E63877@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 7:41 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Liam Proven > Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2010 6:47 PM > >> FTAOD: CUA = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_User_Access > >> What I'd /really/ like as a writing tool would be a CUA mode for >> EMACS. I find its native UI bizarre and incomprehensible - if I have >> to edit text at a Unix prompt, I use Vi, badly - but reading comments >> like Neal Stephenson's in /In The Beginning Was The Command Line/ >> make me think it might >> be the ultimate writers' tool. I'm damned if I'm learning another new >> set of keybindings [a] at my age and [b] in a world where CUA has >> killed off everything else and now rules the GUI world. > > You're apparently in luck. ?Starting with release 22.1, GNU Emacs includes > a cua-mode with appropriate keybindings, so that you don't have to do them > all yourself. ?(One of the beauties of the entire EMACS family of editors > is that you *can* do anything you want with key bindings. ?You don't have > to accept the defaults.) While I instantly defer, I didn't learn it way back when. I learned the weird Sinclair BASIC editor first, then Edlin, then a maze of twisty little DOS wordprocessors, all alike, then RPED on Amstrad CP/M, then the frankly bizarre Acorn dual-cursor text editor, and finally I switched to Windows, at which point, sanity broke out. Basically, and I realise this probably sounds very silly and strange and odd to a Unix or Emacs veteran, I want it to look and work pretty much like (say) MS-DOS Edit - but when you hit the limits of that program and its functionality, you get all the extra Emacs power opening up before you. But menu bar, movable resizable sub-windows, dialog boxes, etc., all in text mode and keyboard operated. I found a Linux text editor I /really/ liked a few years back, but the author is not maintaining it and it doesn't work properly on modern Linuxes. It's called SETedit. http://setedit.sourceforge.net/ It probably looks like a dog's breakfast to Unixy types, but to my PC-permeated mind, this is what a text-mode PC text editor /should/ look like. :?) Emacs could, I am sure, provide this functionality without breaking sweat. The thing is, I suspect Emacs types don't see the point. I am not fussed about X.11 - there are numerous X.11 editors that are just fine. However, for me personally, I am crippled if I am stuck in a terminal window. I can use Vi for the very basics, but I have never worked out how to search and replace, or cut & paste, under it, in some 22 years of usage. I don't care for it at all; I can just about endure it. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From rachael at telefisk.org Sat Dec 4 11:20:04 2010 From: rachael at telefisk.org (Jacob Dahl Pind) Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2010 18:20:04 +0100 Subject: Amiga programming (was Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in?) In-Reply-To: <003001cb9265$c1fd0d50$f60c78d5@user8459cef6fa> References: <20101201052344.B4CD3A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu><20101201181246.GA21542@brevard.conman.org> <003001cb9265$c1fd0d50$f60c78d5@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4CFA7844.1050903@telefisk.org> On 12/02/2010 07:01 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ethan Dicks" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 6:58 PM > Subject: Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? > > >> >> I loved programming on the Amiga, but I preferred system programming >> to application programming (i.e. - not so much Intuition work, but >> plenty of work on device drivers for disk and network and I/O cards >> and lots of console-I/O programs in C and MC68K assembly). >> >> -ethan >> > > So noone here did any demo programming on the Amiga? I have only just > started my first (all assembly coded) demo. It's certainly fun playing with > the hardware :) > I have only been working on it for a month, but hope to have the finished > version done by around March next year, when I'll release it into the Amiga > community and upload a video of it to YouTube :) > > > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > I did some demo coding with friends on amiga, we never got much finished though, http://pouet.net/prod.php?which=31678 pouet has a old intro of ours. gopher://telefisk.org/1/amiga/Development/sources/ regards -- Jacob Dahl Pind | telefisk.org | fidonet 2:237/38.8 From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 4 11:27:46 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2010 09:27:46 -0800 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <20101204103710.GB24023@brevard.conman.org> References: , , <20101204103710.GB24023@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <4CFA0992.23213.4935B3@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Dec 2010 at 5:37, Sean Conner wrote: > Nope. !b will turn 0 to 1, and anything not 0 to 0. > > !!-1 = !(!-1) = !(0) = 1 > !!123 = !(!123) = !(0) = 1 > !!0 = !(!0) = !(1) = 0 Or, to put it another way, the prefix ! operator has the same effect as a comparison to zero. i.e. !(expression) is equivalent to ((expression) == 0) --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 4 13:33:12 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 19:33:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: <4CF92423.2050206@tx.rr.com> from "Charlie Carothers" at Dec 3, 10 11:08:51 am Message-ID: > SD cards are attractive in many ways. For one thing, they can be > accessed via an SPI interface which saves some I/O pins on that end. > Since I really know nothing about SCSI, I don't know if that is a good > approach for a SCSI/SD adapter or not. I wonder if there are any real > time requirements in a SCSI interface that would be impacted by talking > to the SD card in a bit serial fashion. As far as I know, there is nothing in the SCSI spec that specifies a minimum data rate or a maximum seek time. Soyou could even read 1 byte out of an SD card and then send it over the SCSI interfce, and then do the net byte, and so on. It would probably be better to buffer a 'sector' in RAM on the microcontroller, and then transfer the buffer to the SCSI interface. However, it's entirely possible that some OSes will moan if the device is too slow because they will assuem there's a hardware failure. However, I would think the time taken to read/write a 'sector' from an SD card would nopt be any longer than the seek time of some hard drives. So there should be no problem. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 4 13:40:45 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 19:40:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: <20101203151818.B3233@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Dec 3, 10 03:21:17 pm Message-ID: > Some could argue that our preference for "obsolete" electronic technology > is a manifestation of a "baby duck syndrome". I wonder... In particualr, I wonder what proportion of us now actively collect machines that we either used when younger, or at least wanted to own when younger. In my case, I'd heard of the PDP11 before I owened one, but knew nothing about them really. And in the case of PERQs, HP9800s, and several other machines I now seriously owrk on, I had never heard of them before I got my first one. However, a little time looking inside them convinced me of the beauty of the design -tony From alexeyt at freeshell.org Sat Dec 4 14:04:27 2010 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 20:04:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Baby Ducks Was: Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Dec 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > I wonder... > > In particualr, I wonder what proportion of us now actively collect > machines that we either used when younger, or at least wanted to own when > younger. That's how I got into transputers (and by means of transputers into retro-computing). A friend of mine got a (non-functional) 128-core Parsytec branded transputer machine from university surplus for $75, and then proceeded to let it rot in his parents garage and not let anyone else touch it... I was so jealous I went out and got all the relevant books/hardware that I could get my hands on, at first in an effort to convince him I could make it do something cool, and eventually in an effort to do something cool with my own transputer hardware. I'm still working on it (slowly) 10 years later. Alexey From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Dec 4 14:20:35 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2010 15:20:35 -0500 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CFAA293.5060800@verizon.net> On 12/04/2010 02:33 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> SD cards are attractive in many ways. For one thing, they can be >> accessed via an SPI interface which saves some I/O pins on that end. >> Since I really know nothing about SCSI, I don't know if that is a good >> approach for a SCSI/SD adapter or not. I wonder if there are any real >> time requirements in a SCSI interface that would be impacted by talking >> to the SD card in a bit serial fashion. >> > As far as I know, there is nothing in the SCSI spec that specifies a > minimum data rate or a maximum seek time. Soyou could even read 1 byte > out of an SD card and then send it over the SCSI interfce, and then do > the net byte, and so on. It would probably be better to buffer a 'sector' > in RAM on the microcontroller, and then transfer the buffer to the SCSI > interface. > Correct, same for IDE and CF. though in those cases you poll or wait interrupt for ready. Or in the SCSI case wait for ATN (poll or interrupt). The oddity is that SCSI treats block IO the same if slow data rate or to the medium limit. generally slow can be very slow. Sector buffering is not needed for SCSI, CF, SD or IDE as all have their own local buffers and for the SCSI and IDE those buffers are a minimum of one cylinder in size (for the oldest drives) and for later drive can be many hundreds of KB or even several MB. However, it can help if the controller is doing a interleaved operations as block Io overhead is generally lower that byte IO. So the performance is really define in the bridge device rather than the end storage devices up to the slowest in the pipeline(bottlnecking). > However, it's entirely possible that some OSes will moan if the device is > too slow because they will assuem there's a hardware failure. However, I > would think the time taken to read/write a 'sector' from an SD card would > nopt be any longer than the seek time of some hard drives. So there > should be no problem. > > Possible but not likely as most would assume speeds typical for the time (slow) and even slow SD cards are faster than that. Speed in the scsi to anything case is rarely an issue beyond the fact that slow devices will be a performance bottleneck. But for systems using SCSI or SCSI1 we are not talking data rates exceeding a few hundred Kb/Second. Where CF and SD cards will excel even with slower data rates they have no real seek time and for typical disks seek to data rate is usually defining the performance for transfers greater than one cylinder (typically 20k to 100Kbyts depending on vintage). Allison From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Dec 4 14:24:52 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2010 15:24:52 -0500 Subject: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CFAA394.90306@verizon.net> On 12/04/2010 02:40 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Some could argue that our preference for "obsolete" electronic technology >> is a manifestation of a "baby duck syndrome". >> > I wonder... > > In particualr, I wonder what proportion of us now actively collect > machines that we either used when younger, or at least wanted to own when > younger. > > In my case, I'd heard of the PDP11 before I owened one, but knew nothing > about them really. And in the case of PERQs, HP9800s, and several other > machines I now seriously owrk on, I had never heard of them before I got > my first one. However, a little time looking inside them convinced me of > the beauty of the design > In my case they were parallel. I wanted my first PDP-8 in 1969 when I had access, I actually got on in 81. PDP11 was in '79 and a real one in 1982. What drove it was cost, availability and sometimes need. Now its all look back as I don't lust for anything out there thats current mostly. I wouldn't mind having an Ipad running emulators for PDP-8, 11 and VAX. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 4 14:31:17 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2010 12:31:17 -0800 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: References: <4CF92423.2050206@tx.rr.com> from "Charlie Carothers" at Dec 3, 10 11:08:51 am, Message-ID: <4CFA3495.8781.F138BF@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Dec 2010 at 19:33, Tony Duell wrote: > As far as I know, there is nothing in the SCSI spec that specifies a > minimum data rate or a maximum seek time. Soyou could even read 1 byte > out of an SD card and then send it over the SCSI interfce, and then do > the net byte, and so on. It would probably be better to buffer a > 'sector' in RAM on the microcontroller, and then transfer the buffer > to the SCSI interface. There's an excellent argument for heavily cache-ing SD card accesses when using it as a hard disk--to minimize repeated writes to a block (usually 16K) of SDRAM to extend longevity of the medium--and to defer much slower writes as much as possible for performance reasons. If reading speed was an issue, one could employ the faster 4-bit access to SD rather than the simpler and much slower SPI mode that's usually used for slow embedded applications. --Chuck From a50mhzham at gmail.com Sat Dec 4 14:39:56 2010 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (a50mHzHam) Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2010 14:39:56 -0600 Subject: Free SCSI CD-ROM drives -- last stop before the dumpster! Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20101204141659.0bc02b58@localhost> WANTED: A good home for my last three RACK'O'CD boxes by MDI. MUST GO, need space, need basement floor and drain tile repaired. PLEASE some take these, or some of the drives, soonest. Price: FREE (you pay shipping.) These are nifty 7 inch high rack mount boxes about 20 inches deep, each containing seven SCSI CD-ROM drives, a power supply (4 voltages, including +5 at 23A, +12 at 15A) assorted cabling, and a SCSI LUN controller widget. The boxes have two SCSI conncectors each, the large "centronics" type (50-pin?) and a SCSI address selector. The CD-ROM drives are Toshiba XM-5401B, each mounted to a sort-of sled, more like drive rails, with spring-loaded thumb screws holding them in. Each has connectors for Audio Out (L and R), SCSI ID and termination, SCSI, and power. The boxes have a hinged door on top for access to the rear of the drives. With the thumb screws on the drives, tool-less removal is possible. If you need the terminating resistor packs, specify you want drive a #7 (first-come, first served.) You can get the entire box, or two, or three, or some drives (specify quantity) but I don't really want to disassemble these enough to extract the power supply. If I do that, I'll keep a power supply. They look like old style AT type, without the motherboard connection. ----- 135. [Computing] Was it Ritchie or Thompson who said about X: "Sometimes, when you fill a vacuum, it still sucks"? --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... a50mhzham at gmail.com (Email) N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixcom.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From a50mhzham at gmail.com Sat Dec 4 14:41:41 2010 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (a50mHzHam) Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2010 14:41:41 -0600 Subject: Baby Ducks Was: Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20101204144027.00c58038@pop.gmail.com> At 08:04 PM 12/4/2010 +0000, you wrote: >On Sat, 4 Dec 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > >>I wonder... >> >>In particualr, I wonder what proportion of us now actively collect >>machines that we either used when younger, or at least wanted to own when >>younger. > >That's how I got into transputers (and by means of transputers into >retro-computing). A friend of mine got a (non-functional) 128-core >Parsytec branded transputer machine from university surplus for $75, and >then proceeded to let it rot in his parents garage and not let anyone else >touch it... I was so jealous I went out and got all the relevant >books/hardware that I could get my hands on, at first in an effort to >convince him I could make it do something cool, and eventually in an >effort to do something cool with my own transputer hardware. I'm still >working on it (slowly) 10 years later. > > Alexey I think if I had time and money I'd collect all the TI-99/4A stuff I sold to people when I was a dealer but never owned myself. ----- 947. LER /L-E-R/ n. [TMRC, from `Light-Emitting Diode'] A light-emitting resistor (that is, one in the process of burning up). Ohm's law was broken. See also SED --jargon.net --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixcom.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Dec 4 14:50:26 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 18:50:26 -0200 Subject: SCSI to IDE References: <4CF92423.2050206@tx.rr.com> from "Charlie Carothers" at Dec 3, 10 11:08:51 am, <4CFA3495.8781.F138BF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <04B9CB3C0CBB4169A8660B24014CB7FB@portajara> > If reading speed was an issue, one could employ the faster 4-bit > access to SD rather than the simpler and much slower SPI mode that's > usually used for slow embedded applications. Hey people, c'mon?! SD Card speeds: ---8<---cut here---8<--- Speed Class Rating The Speed Class Rating is the official unit of speed measurement for SD Cards, defined by the SD Association. The Class number represents a multiple of 8 Mb/s (1 MB/s), and meets the least sustained write speeds for a card in a fragmented state.[12] These are the ratings of some currently available cards:[12] a.. Class 0 cards do not specify performance, which includes all legacy cards prior to class specifications. b.. Class 2, 2 MB/s, slowest for SDHC cards. c.. Class 4, 4 MB/s. d.. Class 6, 6 MB/s. e.. Class 10, 10 MB/s. ---8<---cut here---8<--- Ok, now to SCSI specs ---8<---cut here---8<--- SCSI-1: 5MB/s Fast SCSI: 10MB/s Fast-Wide SCSI: 10MB/s Ultra SCSI: 20MB/s Ultra-Wide SCSI: 40MB/s ---8<---cut here---8<--- So... - I hope I can develop a SCSI bridge that can move 10MB/s, because I doubt a normal Atmel XMega will be capable of that. - If I can design a fast enough circuit, I can use a Class 10 card and will have 10MB/s. - Since it will be a hard disk emulator, and not a SD Card reader, I can have TWO interleaved cards on the bridge, so making 20MB/s easy - We are talking old computers here. What do you use about CLASSIC computing that goes beyond Fast-Wide SCSI? - Not all people are capable of begin big. - Maybe with ARM microcontrollers, Ultra2Wide can be achived. Who knows? Time to define DOWN TO EARTH specs and begin working :) Greetings from Brazil, Alexandre SOuza From brianlanning at gmail.com Sat Dec 4 15:14:35 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 15:14:35 -0600 Subject: Free SCSI CD-ROM drives -- last stop before the dumpster! In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20101204141659.0bc02b58@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20101204141659.0bc02b58@localhost> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 2:39 PM, a50mHzHam wrote: > WANTED: A good home for my last three RACK'O'CD boxes by MDI. I'd be interested if it's easy (which means no shipping). Where are you located? brian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 4 15:35:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 21:35:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Baby Ducks Was: Re: what was VMS/OpenVMS written in? In-Reply-To: from "Alexey Toptygin" at Dec 4, 10 08:04:27 pm Message-ID: > convince him I could make it do something cool, and eventually in an > effort to do something cool with my own transputer hardware. I'm still > working on it (slowly) 10 years later. I really must do somethign with my transputer stuff again. My Ph.D. work involved a couple of hom-ebuilt transputer boards, and I found them one of the easierst CPUs to design hardware round that I have ever used. Since then I've obtained a fair amount ot transputer stuff myself, not just the normal PC-hosted boards, but also an ITEM (Inmos Tranputer Evaluation Machine, a Sun 3 traansputer motherboard with a number of T800 TRAMs on it, asn quite a few other TRAMs, including SCSI, GPIB, VecTRAM, etc. turely an interestign processor... -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 4 16:56:21 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2010 14:56:21 -0800 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: <04B9CB3C0CBB4169A8660B24014CB7FB@portajara> References: <4CF92423.2050206@tx.rr.com>, <04B9CB3C0CBB4169A8660B24014CB7FB@portajara> Message-ID: <4CFA5695.22053.1760A16@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Dec 2010 at 18:50, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > Speed Class Rating > The Speed Class Rating is the official unit of speed measurement for > SD Cards, defined by the SD Association. The Class number represents a > multiple of 8 Mb/s (1 MB/s), and meets the least sustained write > speeds for a card in a fragmented state. Using SPI, 400KB/sec is about the top rate for read, 200KB/sec for write. If you can get 1MB/sec write speed, more power to you. Most uC implementations get substantially less. Most first-timers trying to wring performance using SPI out of an SDHC are surprised by the low transfer rate. Cache-ing would help a lot. --Chuck From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat Dec 4 18:23:46 2010 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 19:23:46 -0500 Subject: SCSI to IDE Message-ID: SCSI to IDE Alexandre Souza - Listas pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Dec 4 14:50:26 CST 2010 [snip] Time to define DOWN TO EARTH specs and begin working :) Greetings from Brazil, Alexandre SOuza [snip] Alexandre, The work on a SCSI to IDE and SD bridge has already started. I have a schematic, parts list, and PCB layout ready for prototype board up on the N8VEM wiki. Check out the thread on vintage-computer.com forum. It has the Z80 controller, Z53C80, and IDE plus the SD interface. An 8 MHz Z80 will push the data plenty fast enough for early microcomputers. We've seen it first hand with XT-IDE board, the N8VEM DiskIO board, and the S-100 IDE interface. Connect an IDE to CF adapter and it will be a fast drive on most any vintage system. Low cost commercially available SCSI to IDE bridges are already available for those with Ultra-SCSI and later so there is no need to help them. I think the need is for the older SCSI format which *classic* computers use, not the fancy modern stuff. An Ultra-SCSI interface does no good for an early microcomputer with a SCSI-1 interface which I think should be the "classic computer" audience since they need a SCSI to IDE bridge the most. The mailing list is called "CCTALK" for a reason. That's what's pretty much the only thing done here. I agree with your sentiment -- I to would like to see less "talk" and more "do". Don't listen to the naysayers or those who set unrealistically high expectations but refuse to actually do anything except complain. I've been offering to help design a KiCAD schematic and/or PCB board and/or prototype PCBs based on *anyones* design since the start of this thread and have only gotten flamed and ignored. Maybe you'll have better luck. Andrew Lynch PS, if you are planning to offer a PCB or kit, I advise you not use SMT or you'll be assembling nearly all of them yourself. A lot of hobbyists especially those with diminished vision struggle with even DIP/PLCC soldering and SMT parts will just make you the assembler as well as the designer. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Dec 4 20:05:58 2010 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 15:05:58 +1300 Subject: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? References: Message-ID: <54B9CCDF75BB4BC4B1C3F52DF2D72B65@vshack> Hi Guys, Anyone on the list have experience with the Apple Lisa? I'm having fun playing with three broken Lisa's (1 Lisa 2/10 and 2 Lisa 2s) I aquired about a month ago. The aim is eventually to get the Lisa 2/10 and one Lisa 2 going eventually. The Lisa 2/10 comes up with a disk controller error during the I/O board check. I don't have an I/O board I can swap out I've shelved that one until I can get one of the other Lisa 2s going. After a systematic check of what is and what is not faulty in the three Lisas, I've now got one of the Lisa 2s to the point where it asks for a disk. And here's the problem. I can't get any of my sony Lisa 400k 3.5 drives (all three of them) to show any sign of life? You can see the little LEDs come on inside but nothing mechanical moves at all? I have 2 LisaLite controller boards, but swapping these around makes no difference. I find it hard to believe that all three drives have exactly the same problem or even that both LisaLite boards have the same fault (although it's always possible I guess?). The only thing not swapped is the main cable going from the backboard connector to the Lisa Light controller? However the connecting ends look ok with no sign of missing or damaged pins? Before I dive into some deeper diagnostics, I just wonder if I'm missing something obvious here? Has anyone else had this problem or can suggest what might be wrong? Do these Lisalight controllers often fail (say by someone plugging them in backwards...Apple II drive controllers can certainly be killed this way) and how likely do you think it is I might have two faulty ones? (or three faulty drives for that matter). Any comments most appreciated. Terry Stewart (Tez) From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 4 20:08:13 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2010 02:08:13 +0000 Subject: SCSI to SD/IDE Message-ID: <4CFAF40D.30108@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Ok guys, The Good bit.... All this talk of SCSI to whatever got me curious so I started experementing. What I have so far : An AVR ATMega1284 (DIP40), connected to an SD card by SPI and to the SCSI bus via 4 LS chips (1xLS273 and 3xLS240). I currently have implemented just a few of the SCSI command set, Identify, read, write, test ready and request sense. Thist is enough to be able to connect to a PC SCSI card, format the drive and read and write files to it....heheh I can even boot off it ! I'm using Chan's FatFS, and in this way the drive seen by the SCSI is actually a large image file on the SD card, I did this as it will make backing up the drive *MUCH* easier if the target system is not a PC, as you can simply take the SD card out and copy the image file without worrying about it's internal structure. In theory this will also make sharing data between the target system and an emulation running on something more modern. There's a couple of pictures here : http://www.stardot.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3646 The bad bit...... Whilst this all works it's SLOWWWW, using Norton utilities SI, reports that the disk is 0.2x the speed of an original PC, cirtainly bootup times are much more akin to what I would expect from a floppy drive :( So I would sugest that for replacing hard disks that using SCSI->SD is probably not going to be fast enough. My next experements are going to center on replacing the SD with an IDE drive, hopefully this will provide a suitable speed increse, asuming that this works it should be easy enough to use a CF->IDE adapter board to use a CF drive instead of an IDE, which will allow the media to be removable and easiliy swapable. The other thing I want this to support is 256 byte sectors as some old machines rely on this, a feature which is supported by some of the early SCSI/SASI to MFM/RLL boards but very few native SCSI drives, this would be of perticular intrest to some of the Acorn 8 bit machines. Comments & sugestions welcome. Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Dec 4 20:09:42 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 21:09:42 -0500 Subject: Free SCSI CD-ROM drives -- last stop before the dumpster! In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20101204141659.0bc02b58@localhost> Message-ID: <201012042109.42431.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday, December 04, 2010, Brian Lanning wrote: > On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 2:39 PM, a50mHzHam wrote: > > WANTED: A good home for my last three RACK'O'CD boxes by MDI. > > I'd be interested if it's easy (which means no shipping). Where are > you located? > > brian Based on his .sig, I'd guess Menomonee Falls, WI 53051. > 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815' Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Dec 4 20:34:26 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 00:34:26 -0200 Subject: SCSI to SD/IDE References: <4CFAF40D.30108@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: > Thist is enough to be able to connect to a PC SCSI card, format the drive > and read and write files to it....heheh I can even boot off it ! **I AM SPEECHLESS** :oO Some suggestions: - Forget bit-bang SPI code. There is a SPI interface on atmega, it makes things waayy faster - Forget FAT. Use the SD card as a block device, it will triple the speed. It won't be readable in PC but will be with a layer of code less. - Use the fastest processor you can - Use the internal RAM as a buffer. It will speed things a lot, move the data to sdcard in the idle times - Map the entire SD card as a drive, with no translation. E.G.: The sector 321 of the card is the sector 321 of the SCSI "hard disk" I'm sure it will be way faster CONGRATULATIONS! :D From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Dec 4 20:47:10 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 00:47:10 -0200 Subject: Fw: [Amateur-repairs] Computer drives Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 7:59 PM Subject: [Amateur-repairs] Computer drives >I don't expect anyone wants one of these, but I've "got" to ask anyway. > > Have box of various computer drives.... floppy (all types), hard (SCSI), > and even a CD-RW. > > Of course, no drivers. > > Free for postage > > Ed > > . > ____________________________________________________________ > Explosive Stock Secrets > Learn the Secret art of picking penny stocks before they spike > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4cfaba0b5b184f28c1st05duc > From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Dec 4 21:29:40 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2010 19:29:40 -0800 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <1291418957.12310.6.camel@ryoko> <20101204005248.GA24023@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <4CFB0724.5060504@brouhaha.com> Christian Corti wrote: > This doesn't change much because !!123 may still be 123 instead of 1. Only on a seriously broken C compiler. The unary logical negation operator has been required to return only 0 or 1 by all of the C standards, and by pre-standard definitions of the language dating back to at least May 1975 as Kevin Schoedel pointed out. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 4 21:32:28 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2010 19:32:28 -0800 Subject: SCSI to SD/IDE In-Reply-To: <4CFAF40D.30108@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <4CFAF40D.30108@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4CFA974C.23730.272D3F4@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Dec 2010 at 2:08, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > Comments & sugestions welcome. Use an ARM CPU. The SD-to-CPU connection is straightforward and you should have more than enough I/O pins to implement the 4-bit interface. Since most ARMs have internal PLL clock generators, getting 60-70 MHz is easy on all but the lowest-end models. SCSI bus drivers should be OC, not totem-pole (so you can have more than one device on the bus), so you'll want to use something like an LS641 for the bus transceiver. You can do active termination with a 2.85V LDO regulator (I like the LM1086) and some 110 ohm resistor packs. Many ARMs have built-in external RAM controllers, so adding a few MB of RAM for cache is easy. Some offer DMA. --Chuck P.S. I'm looking forward to Energy Micro's Giant Gecko line with 128K of RAM on-chip. From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Dec 4 21:43:30 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2010 22:43:30 -0500 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: <04B9CB3C0CBB4169A8660B24014CB7FB@portajara> References: <4CF92423.2050206@tx.rr.com> from "Charlie Carothers" at Dec 3, 10 11:08:51 am, <4CFA3495.8781.F138BF@cclist.sydex.com> <04B9CB3C0CBB4169A8660B24014CB7FB@portajara> Message-ID: <4CFB0A62.20406@verizon.net> On 12/04/2010 03:50 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> If reading speed was an issue, one could employ the faster 4-bit >> access to SD rather than the simpler and much slower SPI mode that's >> usually used for slow embedded applications. > > Hey people, c'mon?! > > SD Card speeds: > ---8<---cut here---8<--- > Speed Class Rating > The Speed Class Rating is the official unit of speed measurement for > SD Cards, defined by the SD Association. The Class number represents a > multiple of 8 Mb/s (1 MB/s), and meets the least sustained write > speeds for a card in a fragmented state.[12] > > These are the ratings of some currently available cards:[12] > > a.. Class 0 cards do not specify performance, which includes all > legacy cards prior to class specifications. > b.. Class 2, 2 MB/s, slowest for SDHC cards. > c.. Class 4, 4 MB/s. > d.. Class 6, 6 MB/s. > e.. Class 10, 10 MB/s. > ---8<---cut here---8<--- > Ok, now to SCSI specs > > ---8<---cut here---8<--- > SCSI-1: 5MB/s Assumes the full speed was used. Often not most of the SCSI to MFM controllers I have (adaptex, WD, Xybec) were limited to what the drives could do and thats maybe 5MB peak but sustained more like 400kbyts/S. Considering all of them run 4mhz z80s even thats likely to be unlikely. I have an AIC4070 Adaptec SCSI to MFM card loose. The core is a 8085 running 3mhz (6mhz crystal) and the memory is a mere 256bytes (8156= 256ram, 22-IO pins and timer) and the EProm a 2764. There are two asics one to do part of the MFM disk interface the other looks to be part of the MFM plus some added IO function. a pair of 2148s supplied and additional 2k of ram likely as a sector buffer. An 8085 would be hard pressed to do about 85kbytes second without a DMA assist. The DMA Bus speed being processor speed that put the bus in the 3mbyte/S range maximum. None of the bridge boards or early (sub 150mb) SCSI disks ran at SCSI bus speeds. However the design does show that the cpu and core facilities need not be big/fast. The Xybec is a 4mhz Z80, 2116, 2764 and 5380(scsi) and WD asics for MFM disk. I pulled these as reference designs. Drives that are of the era arfe using tms320 and 80c196 cpus (1gb baracuda class) and the buffers are in the 256K but that includes LRU cache and cylinder buffering. And older RZ23 had a 68hc11,27256 and a 6165 (8k ram) plus a 256Kx8 dram for cache and buffer. The basic CPU can be a bench mark for performance. So those numbers are more about what the BUS was spec'ed to do and not what actual devices did. > Fast SCSI: 10MB/s > Fast-Wide SCSI: 10MB/s > Ultra SCSI: 20MB/s > Ultra-Wide SCSI: 40MB/s > ---8<---cut here---8<--- > > So... > - I hope I can develop a SCSI bridge that can move 10MB/s, because > I doubt a normal Atmel XMega will be capable of that. The atmega might if you go for te fastest part and write tight code. the problem is it will be waiting for the SD as they are generally not that fast (it would have to be class 6). > - If I can design a fast enough circuit, I can use a Class 10 card > and will have 10MB/s. Why not CF, they are faster. and also IDE can be used. > > - Since it will be a hard disk emulator, and not a SD Card reader, > I can have TWO interleaved cards on the bridge, so making 20MB/s easy Not so fast. SD cards are not like rams/roms and running them interleaved is going to take a lot to sync them. It's also a storage management problem. The overhead will assure that you get less than twice. > - We are talking old computers here. What do you use about CLASSIC > computing that goes beyond Fast-Wide SCSI? > - Not all people are capable of begin big. > - Maybe with ARM microcontrollers, Ultra2Wide can be achived. Who > knows? > > Time to define DOWN TO EARTH specs and begin working :) > If one is deperate for a drive to run a system then modest speeds that are in the z80/6mhz range and SD class 2 are more likely and probably faster on average than most under 200mb drives were. To replace a 1.07gb Baracuda, thin more like a a CPU that can do multiple MIPS of IO performance or faster. The best a Z80 can do with DMA is 4mbytes/S and a 8085AH with DMA (8237H) is around 5mb/S. To faster than SCSI-2your need a 100mhz ARM DMA support (if not on the ARM) and lots of fast everything. FYI a quick check found plenty of Seagate Barcudas in the 1gb range. Not cheap but not scarce either. DEC RZ series drives were easy to find too. If you looking at fast wide or faster those are still available. It doesnt look worth the effort at this time to do faster than base SCSI. Allison From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 4 21:46:40 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2010 03:46:40 +0000 Subject: SCSI to SD/IDE In-Reply-To: References: <4CFAF40D.30108@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4CFB0B20.9050700@aurigae.demon.co.uk> On 05/12/2010 02:34, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Thist is enough to be able to connect to a PC SCSI card, format the >> drive and read and write files to it....heheh I can even boot off it ! > > **I AM SPEECHLESS** :oO :) It was helped by already having worked some of it out when writing the emulation for the RM nimbus hard disk in MESS, which is effectivly bit-banged SCSI..... > Some suggestions: > - Forget bit-bang SPI code. There is a SPI interface on atmega, it makes > things waayy faster Yep using the hardware SPI, it's just the SCSI that I have to do manually. > - Forget FAT. Use the SD card as a block device, it will triple the > speed. It won't be readable in PC but will be with a layer of code less. > - Use the fastest processor you can Of course...the Mega 1284 is good to 20MHz > - Use the internal RAM as a buffer. It will speed things a lot, move the > data to sdcard in the idle times I may try implementing that one of the reasons for picking the m1284 was that it has 16K of internal SRAM. > - Map the entire SD card as a drive, with no translation. E.G.: The > sector 321 of the card is the sector 321 of the SCSI "hard disk" That's how I tried it initially, so I know it works I just wanted the FAT because it makes things much more convenient :) > I'm sure it will be way faster > > CONGRATULATIONS! :D Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 4 21:57:36 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2010 03:57:36 +0000 Subject: SCSI to SD/IDE In-Reply-To: <4CFA974C.23730.272D3F4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CFAF40D.30108@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4CFA974C.23730.272D3F4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CFB0DB0.3000106@aurigae.demon.co.uk> On 05/12/2010 03:32, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5 Dec 2010 at 2:08, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > >> Comments& sugestions welcome. > > Use an ARM CPU. The SD-to-CPU connection is straightforward and you > should have more than enough I/O pins to implement the 4-bit > interface. Since most ARMs have internal PLL clock generators, > getting 60-70 MHz is easy on all but the lowest-end models. I had considdered that, however this does mean doing fine pitch smd work, which whilst not really (yet) a problem for me does serve as a barrier to some members of this list (and the community in general). > SCSI bus drivers should be OC, not totem-pole (so you can have more > than one device on the bus), so you'll want to use something like an > LS641 for the bus transceiver. You can do active termination with a > 2.85V LDO regulator (I like the LM1086) and some 110 ohm resistor > packs. Humm I used LS240s as that was what the sugested interface circuits in the Adaptec ACB-4000 and Xebec SCSI to MFM boards used, they are 3 state, and I do HiZ them when I'm not driving the bus, I'll have to try it with another SCSI drive also on the bus tho. > Many ARMs have built-in external RAM controllers, so adding a few MB > of RAM for cache is easy. Some offer DMA. Yep, though again at the disadvantage of having to do SM. > P.S. I'm looking forward to Energy Micro's Giant Gecko line with 128K > of RAM on-chip. Just googled them, looks cool. Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Dec 4 22:20:49 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2010 20:20:49 -0800 Subject: SCSI to SD/IDE In-Reply-To: <4CFA974C.23730.272D3F4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CFAF40D.30108@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4CFA974C.23730.272D3F4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CFB1321.4090608@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > P.S. I'm looking forward to Energy Micro's Giant Gecko line with 128K > of RAM on-chip. And 1 MB of flash. I'm using a non-giant Gecko (EFM32G280) in one of my designs, and am hoping to drop in an EFM32GG280F1024 Giant Gecko to get more memory. An Energy Micro press release of 19-JUL-2010 said "Detailed datasheets on the Giant Gecko will be released November 1st 2010", but unfortunately that doesn't seem to have happened yet. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 4 22:25:18 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2010 20:25:18 -0800 Subject: SCSI to SD/IDE In-Reply-To: <4CFB0DB0.3000106@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <4CFAF40D.30108@aurigae.demon.co.uk>, <4CFA974C.23730.272D3F4@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CFB0DB0.3000106@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4CFAA3AE.25474.2A335D2@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Dec 2010 at 3:57, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > I had considdered that, however this does mean doing fine pitch smd > work, which whilst not really (yet) a problem for me does serve as a > barrier to some members of this list (and the community in general). There seems to be more fear than reality. I'm in my "golden years" with many pairs of glasses (one I use for walking around, another for computer use, another for reading music, another for electronics work...) so my vision's hardly optimal and I have terrible depth perception and congenital nystagmus. For the *really* small stuff, I use a stereomicroscope which makes the end of a soldering iron tip look like baseball bat. But I rarely have need for that. For QFP microcontrollers on a prototype, I use an adapter to 0.100" pin spacing (cheap) for the MCU. The remainder of the board can be through-hole or even wire-wrap. Easy to solder one, using only a bit of solder wick to grab any excess. Strangely, it does not take a fine-point soldering iron tip-- I find a broad chisel-tip. Note that we're not talking about tiny SMD resistors or BGAs here, but good-sized ICs. If I can do it, anyone can. Another option might be a vintage, but faster CPU like an 80C188, which can be had in PLCC. Still easy to interface to external memory and other devices. Familiar instruction set. But, I'm not the one designing this thing or building it. I've got my own project list to work on. Your opinion, obviously counts the most. --Chuck From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Dec 4 22:32:10 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2010 23:32:10 -0500 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CFB15CA.1000506@verizon.net> On 12/04/2010 07:23 PM, Andrew Lynch wrote: > SCSI to IDE > > Alexandre Souza - Listas pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com > %3C04B9CB3C0CBB4169A8660B24014CB7FB%40portajara%3E> > Sat Dec 4 14:50:26 CST 2010 > [snip] > > Time to define DOWN TO EARTH specs and begin working :) > > Greetings from Brazil, > Alexandre SOuza > > [snip] > > > Alexandre, > > The work on a SCSI to IDE and SD bridge has already started. I have a > schematic, parts list, and PCB layout ready for prototype board up on the > N8VEM wiki. Check out the thread on vintage-computer.com forum. It has the > Z80 controller, Z53C80, and IDE plus the SD interface. An 8 MHz Z80 will > push the data plenty fast enough for early microcomputers. We've seen it > first hand with XT-IDE board, the N8VEM DiskIO board, and the S-100 IDE > interface. Connect an IDE to CF adapter and it will be a fast drive on most > any vintage system. > > Low cost commercially available SCSI to IDE bridges are already available > for those with Ultra-SCSI and later so there is no need to help them. I > think the need is for the older SCSI format which *classic* computers use, > not the fancy modern stuff. An Ultra-SCSI interface does no good for an > early microcomputer with a SCSI-1 interface which I think should be the > "classic computer" audience since they need a SCSI to IDE bridge the most. > > If memory serves the real problem is wide scsi and narrow scsi don't mix. The fast and slow scsi bus parts work fine if it's fast on a slow host but slow on a fast host was problematic. However, most are trying to solve the slow (relatively) host to anything and that can be fast so long as it's not wide. But wait we are not done as the host may be limited in the drive sizes (and expected ID string) they will work with. I know one example of that, AmproLB+ the bios supplied only worked with two scsi bridges (only with 10mb drives) or a oddball Sugart ST125N or some such. anything else required a new BIOS and rewriting drive install/initialize tool. MY SB180 with the SCSI adaptor board had the oddball requirement that the target drive/adaptor had to have 256byte sectors (not as common). Some SCSI bridge boards did that but not all and I've not found a drive with SCSI on it that could. This means a SCSI to anything board has to have the ability to: A) look like a known drive (supply drive ID and all). B) allow partitioning the IDE (or whatever) to match the replacement drive and identify as multiple LUNs aif needed/required. C) match sector size of obbball systems (since IDE and most CF and SD tech are 512byte sector) that means blocking and deblocking are required. D) Operate in CHS or LBA as needed for sector addressing on the SCSI side. E) Depending on the size/age of the IDE drive also do CHS of LBA Translations. (CF and SD are LBA). This sounds more practical. Parallel IDE can easily do 33mB/S and faster. SD from actual use is not fast but cheap. The limiting factor is the Z80 with no dma as the best you can get to with that is maybe 200KB/s and this is as good or better than the old SCSI to MFM cards. > The mailing list is called "CCTALK" for a reason. That's what's pretty much > the only thing done here. I agree with your sentiment -- I to would like to > see less "talk" and more "do". Don't listen to the naysayers or those who > set unrealistically high expectations but refuse to actually do anything > except complain. I've been offering to help design a KiCAD schematic and/or > PCB board and/or prototype PCBs based on *anyones* design since the start of > this thread and have only gotten flamed and ignored. Maybe you'll have > better luck. > > One of the pet issues I have is hearing I want... fast... cheap. The rules are the same in 1960 as now, Good, fast, cheap Pick two only. Fast is rarely cheap. In this case fast complicates the parts used, bus layout and even impacts software. > PS, if you are planning to offer a PCB or kit, I advise you not use SMT or > you'll be assembling nearly all of them yourself. A lot of hobbyists > especially those with diminished vision struggle with even DIP/PLCC > soldering and SMT parts will just make you the assembler as well as the > designer. > > It's worse than that. Even with through hole parts, people hire out K1 and K2 (ham transceivers) kit assembly! Those that can pay do and those that can't and are unskilled, just want. SMT parts are not that hard and the vision thing is a red herring as thats what magnifiers are for. I've built lots of SMT stuff and my reading glasses are +2.0 and getting worse. Not a problem as a good +5 magnifier makes it happen. I do down to 0403 and TQFP to 64pins. Those require good soldering tools. Me, this is NOT a project I might be interested in as I have a boat load of SCSI drives and only a few machines that use SCSI (all of them are microVAXes). So I likely have a lifetime supply. Allison From trag at io.com Sat Dec 4 22:37:56 2010 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 22:37:56 -0600 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 19:13:08 -0800 >From: Eric Smith >Dyslexia strikes again. I thought you were looking for the 85C30, not >the 53C80. Sigh. > >I doubt that anyone makes the 5380 or 53C80 anymore. Not quite the 53C80, but perhaps the next best thing: I have three 53C94 and three 53CF94 in 84 pin PLCC packages which I will happily ship (for free) to anyone who wants to dabble on this project. They are untested, and I'm looking at my inventory trying to figure out whatever possessed me to buy them in the first place. Perhaps I got them with a larger lot. I only ask that you actually be about to experiment before you ask me to send them to you. It's too easy to acquire stuff with the intention of doing a project and then for various reasons never do it. I also have a brick of 660 NCR 53C96 chips. Unfortunately, these are a (IIRC) 100 pin QFP (30 X 20?), which is more difficult to work with than a DIP or socketable PLCC. I am reluctant to open the (sealed) brick to pull out one or two, but if someone wants to develop this project with the 53C96 in mind I'd be happy to supply 53C96s for the production at a nominal cost; certainly no more than $1 per chip. Again, not quite sure what I was thinking when I bought them.... If these are usable and not too modern for this project that should help keep the cost down as compared to paying $5 - $10 per SCSI chip. Finally having a written inventory really helps to bring home all those items that I just can't imagine any realistic future use for.... I put the datasheets for the AMD 53C94/96 and the 53CF94/96 as well as the Zilog 53C80 up at: Jeff Walther From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 4 23:34:20 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2010 21:34:20 -0800 Subject: SCSI to SD/IDE In-Reply-To: <4CFB1321.4090608@brouhaha.com> References: <4CFAF40D.30108@aurigae.demon.co.uk>, <4CFA974C.23730.272D3F4@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CFB1321.4090608@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CFAB3DC.17755.2E26962@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Dec 2010 at 20:20, Eric Smith wrote: > And 1 MB of flash. I'm using a non-giant Gecko (EFM32G280) in one of > my designs, and am hoping to drop in an EFM32GG280F1024 Giant Gecko to > get more memory. An Energy Micro press release of 19-JUL-2010 said > "Detailed datasheets on the Giant Gecko will be released November 1st > 2010", but unfortunately that doesn't seem to have happened yet. Sure hope it's not one of those "Real Soon Now" releases... --Chuck From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sat Dec 4 23:22:32 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2010 23:22:32 -0600 Subject: SCSI to IDE In-Reply-To: <4CFA3495.8781.F138BF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CF92423.2050206@tx.rr.com> from "Charlie Carothers" at Dec 3, 10 11:08:51 am, <4CFA3495.8781.F138BF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CFB2198.2010406@tx.rr.com> On 12/4/2010 2:31 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4 Dec 2010 at 19:33, Tony Duell wrote: > >> As far as I know, there is nothing in the SCSI spec that specifies a >> minimum data rate or a maximum seek time. Soyou could even read 1 byte >> out of an SD card and then send it over the SCSI interfce, and then do >> the net byte, and so on. It would probably be better to buffer a >> 'sector' in RAM on the microcontroller, and then transfer the buffer >> to the SCSI interface. > > There's an excellent argument for heavily cache-ing SD card accesses > when using it as a hard disk--to minimize repeated writes to a block > (usually 16K) of SDRAM to extend longevity of the medium That's a very good point. I was rather naively thinking of a vintage system that is used only very occasionally. That notion may be valid in some instances, but obviously not always. If you are going to be doing much writing to the flash, I think you would need to do flash wear leveling in the bridge device. If you are running an OS which (like some I could mention) seem to access the disk drive fairly frequently for no apparent reason (reading? writing? I'm never sure) then you should probably not consider using a flash drive at all unless you have enough RAM to make most of the writing unseen by the flash. Then of course you must be sure the write from RAM to flash occurs when power is about to be lost. This is starting to sound pretty complicated. I'm sure most of the new SSD's take all of that into account. Maybe what is really needed is a SCSI to SATA bridge. :-) Later, Charlie C. --and to > defer much slower writes as much as possible for performance reasons. > > If reading speed was an issue, one could employ the faster 4-bit > access to SD rather than the simpler and much slower SPI mode that's > usually used for slow embedded applications. > > --Chuck > > From kevenm at 3kranger.com Sat Dec 4 08:17:33 2010 From: kevenm at 3kranger.com (Keven Miller) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 07:17:33 -0700 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <1291418957.12310.6.camel@ryoko> <4CF99906.8060608@brouhaha.com><1291426772.13642.0.camel@ryoko><4CF9A9EC.9080708@brouhaha.com> <4CF9C87E.4080103@gmail.com> <4CF9F6DB.2060107@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <902E9F7DFEE0437D85EA3B2042C04B48@RANGER1> I have a copy of Draft Proposed American National Standard for Information Systems -- Programming Language C Jan 11, 1988 X3J11/88-001 In section 3.3.3.3 (page 45 line 27) it states The result of the logical negation operator ! is 0 if the value of its operand compares unequal to 0, 1 if the value of its operand compares equal to 0. The result has type int. The expression !E is equivalent to (0==E). Keven Miller ----- Original Message ----- From: Eric Smith To: Sridhar Ayengar Cc: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 01:07 AM Subject: Re: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > That's a pretty new standard. What did older > C standards say on the subject? The same thing. I just don't have them handy to give specific section references. From jws at jwsss.com Sat Dec 4 15:17:32 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2010 13:17:32 -0800 Subject: SCSI on the small and cheap Message-ID: <4CFAAFEC.8040004@jwsss.com> Does anyone have experience or notes on the absolute minimum hardware to do parallel narrow (and slow) SCSI. Back in the early days, we were doing non arbitrated buses, and they are now essentially unsupported, and there are some more bits related to Attention that possibly has to be responded to quickly to keep from upsetting initiator stacks. However I would think a small circuit external to a small processor such as a PIC or AVR would allow one to fool most initiators, and do a simple device with SCSI on one side, and either ethernet or USB on the other, or even an SD ram part. The reset signal has some real constraints about getting the drivers off the bus really quickly, and that is one signal that can't be handled in software unless you have really fast response. Also there are some state transitions related to Reset that I think might have some issues. You would of course need to latch that a reset occurred and when your slow device got around to polling it it could handle that. Also when the states are decoded would not be too hard to record and latch. I just wonder if this would be less than the simple target circuits out there and would be very difficult to implement. The messaging and selection added some logic I have not studied in a long time such that there were some transitions that could not be easily handled either. Jim From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 5 12:26:19 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 18:26:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? In-Reply-To: <54B9CCDF75BB4BC4B1C3F52DF2D72B65@vshack> from "Terry Stewart" at Dec 5, 10 03:05:58 pm Message-ID: > > Hi Guys, > > Anyone on the list have experience with the Apple Lisa? I'm having fun ALas I don't ahve a Lisa (I can always dream...) But I may be able to offer some advice. Please be warned that last time I sent a message like this it caused yet another almighty flamefest. Let's see if that happens again :-) > playing with three broken Lisa's (1 Lisa 2/10 and 2 Lisa 2s) I aquired about > a month ago. The aim is eventually to get the Lisa 2/10 and one Lisa 2 going > eventually. > > The Lisa 2/10 comes up with a disk controller error during the I/O board > check. I don't have an I/O board I can swap out I've shelved that one until > I can get one of the other Lisa 2s going. > > After a systematic check of what is and what is not faulty in the three > Lisas, I've now got one of the Lisa 2s to the point where it asks for a > disk. And here's the problem. I can't get any of my sony Lisa 400k 3.5 > drives (all three of them) to show any sign of life? You can see the little > LEDs come on inside but nothing mechanical moves at all? > > I have 2 LisaLite controller boards, but swapping these around makes no > difference. > > I find it hard to believe that all three drives have exactly the same > problem or even that both LisaLite boards have the same fault (although it's > always possible I guess?). The only thing not swapped is the main cable > going from the backboard connector to the Lisa Light controller? However > the connecting ends look ok with no sign of missing or damaged pins? \beign{rant} There are some people I hope I never meet, beause if I do I will probably do things that I come to regret (like when I'k in court for assault!). The inventor of board swapping is one such. \enf{rant} This si a very clear example of why board-swapping on classic computes is a very bad idea. Firstly, since you have no idea as to the health of any of the parts, you can't deduce anything from the fact that swapping them out makes no difference. Secondly, if there's somethign wrong that is damaging parts (say 12V where it shouldn't be), you might well have just ruined all the aprts you have. Oh well... As I said, I know noting about the Lisa. But a Google search for 'lise schematic' (no quotes) got me to a site with said scheamtics as the first or second site listed. These schemeaitcs incldue the Lisalite board (which I had never heard of) and the main Lisa boards, but alas not the drives themselves. If I am reading the schematics right, the Lisalite is an interface to make a Sony 400K 3.5" drive -- presumably the same as the Apple Mac 400K drive -- look something like the 'Twiggy' 5.25" drive. I don't think it does a complete coversion -- like the PERQ (which I am muich more familiar with), a number of the signals are software defined (they go to I/O port chips), so obviously those could change in meaning. The Lisalite board seems ot be really a PWM generatiro (using TTL chips that are easy to understand) to handle the motor speed control. As I said, there don't seem to be any schematics of the drive available, and I've never worked on one (I have worked on the 80KK drive, but that is quite different). However, IIRC one of the origianls volumes of 'Inside Macintosh' has some information on the drive interface. Just don't expect me to find it :-) I seem to rememebr that the control protocol for thsie drive is a lot more complex than that for a normal floppy drive, there aren't the expect signals on individual connector pins. What I would do now -- actually waht I would have done first -- is grab the Lisalite scheaatic and check the power lines are correct. Check that there's 5V on the TTL chips, check that 5V and 12V are on the right pins of the drive connector. Then find out (possibly from Inside Macintosh) what is needed for the drive to spin. Presumably a PWM singal that's not always 0, but is there a separate motor enable bit too? In any case, see if the PWM scircuit is running, see if the machine is trying to talk to the drive. -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Dec 5 12:48:58 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 13:48:58 -0500 Subject: SCSI to SD/IDE In-Reply-To: <4CFAF40D.30108@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <4CFAF40D.30108@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On 12/4/10, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > The other thing I want this to support is 256 byte sectors as some old > machines rely on this, a feature which is supported by some of the early > SCSI/SASI to MFM/RLL boards but very few native SCSI drives, this would > be of perticular intrest to some of the Acorn 8 bit machines. PET as well - the D9060/D9090 drives had a SASI board and either a 5MB or 7.5MB MFM drive inside (Tandon TM602S or TM603S) that was presented as 256 byte blocks. The slowness you describe probably wouldn't be a problem in this system since even the SASI interface on the "DOS board" is implemented programmatically in 6502 code. For the near term, it's convenient that one can drop in an ST225 (formatted to 5MB) or an ST251 (formatted to 7.5MB), but a solid-state drive emulator would still be nice to have. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 5 13:04:18 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2010 11:04:18 -0800 Subject: SCSI on the small and cheap In-Reply-To: <4CFAAFEC.8040004@jwsss.com> References: <4CFAAFEC.8040004@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4CFB71B2.10778.51D7B8@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Dec 2010 at 13:17, jim s wrote: > Does anyone have experience or notes on the absolute minimum hardware > to do parallel narrow (and slow) SCSI. I think I once investigated this and found that a PC parallel port in bidirectional mode could at least talk to a slow SCSI device. IMOHO, that would be the minimum. Same for GPIB. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 5 13:10:11 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2010 11:10:11 -0800 Subject: SCSI to SD/IDE In-Reply-To: References: <4CFAF40D.30108@aurigae.demon.co.uk>, Message-ID: <4CFB7313.22217.573706@cclist.sydex.com> Okay, a faintly related question to this thing with SD cards. Are USB pen drives any better at leveling wear than SDHCs? The reason I ask is that there's a USB 2.0 flash driver available for the inexpensive AVR90USB162 chip that might also work as a SCSI-emulated device. Any sort of buffering isn't possible, as the chip only has 512 bytes of SRAM. But there are many other inexpensive USB-capable microcontrollers as well. --Chuck From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Dec 5 13:42:47 2010 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 14:42:47 -0500 Subject: SCSI to SD-IDE Message-ID: SCSI to SD/IDE Phill Harvey-Smith afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 4 20:08:13 CST 2010 * Previous message: SCSI to IDE * Next message: SCSI to SD/IDE * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] ________________________________ Ok guys, The Good bit.... All this talk of SCSI to whatever got me curious so I started experementing. What I have so far : An AVR ATMega1284 (DIP40), connected to an SD card by SPI and to the SCSI bus via 4 LS chips (1xLS273 and 3xLS240). I currently have implemented just a few of the SCSI command set, Identify, read, write, test ready and request sense. Thist is enough to be able to connect to a PC SCSI card, format the drive and read and write files to it....heheh I can even boot off it ! I'm using Chan's FatFS, and in this way the drive seen by the SCSI is actually a large image file on the SD card, I did this as it will make backing up the drive *MUCH* easier if the target system is not a PC, as you can simply take the SD card out and copy the image file without worrying about it's internal structure. In theory this will also make sharing data between the target system and an emulation running on something more modern. There's a couple of pictures here : http://www.stardot.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3646 The bad bit...... Whilst this all works it's SLOWWWW, using Norton utilities SI, reports that the disk is 0.2x the speed of an original PC, cirtainly bootup times are much more akin to what I would expect from a floppy drive :( So I would sugest that for replacing hard disks that using SCSI->SD is probably not going to be fast enough. My next experements are going to center on replacing the SD with an IDE drive, hopefully this will provide a suitable speed increse, asuming that this works it should be easy enough to use a CF->IDE adapter board to use a CF drive instead of an IDE, which will allow the media to be removable and easiliy swapable. The other thing I want this to support is 256 byte sectors as some old machines rely on this, a feature which is supported by some of the early SCSI/SASI to MFM/RLL boards but very few native SCSI drives, this would be of perticular intrest to some of the Acorn 8 bit machines. Comments & sugestions welcome. Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. ________________________________ * Previous message: SCSI to IDE * Next message: SCSI to SD/IDE * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] ________________________________ More information about the cctalk mailing list ________________________________ -----REPLY----- Huzzah! Good for you! Glad to see *something* coming out of all of this. Congratulations! Have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 5 14:05:08 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2010 20:05:08 +0000 Subject: SCSI to SD/IDE In-Reply-To: <4CFB7313.22217.573706@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CFAF40D.30108@aurigae.demon.co.uk>, <4CFB7313.22217.573706@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CFBF074.1060701@aurigae.demon.co.uk> On 05/12/2010 19:10, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Okay, a faintly related question to this thing with SD cards. > > Are USB pen drives any better at leveling wear than SDHCs? The > reason I ask is that there's a USB 2.0 flash driver available for the > inexpensive AVR90USB162 chip that might also work as a SCSI-emulated > device. Any sort of buffering isn't possible, as the chip only has > 512 bytes of SRAM. But there are many other inexpensive USB-capable > microcontrollers as well. Also the AVR90USB162 won't do OTG which is what would be required for it to talk to a flash drive. However it's bigger brother the USB1287 will. It could be used with the LUFA library, and I see no reason why it couldn't be used. Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Dec 5 14:09:55 2010 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 09:09:55 +1300 Subject: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? References: Message-ID: <4AEDA1B8C902473FBD707132BEA47925@massey.ac.nz> Tony, thanks for doing that bit of research. While I can see your point, I feel board swapping does have its place in some circumstances but let's put that aside. I don't want to fan flames (-: Yes, a checkout to see if voltages were where they should be on the LisaLite boards was going to be my next step (and also a check of the cables). I just wanted to see if there was any common design flaw/fault people know if in either the boards or the drives which caused the symptom before I went any further. Collective knowledge might have been a shortcut to the problem, hence the post. I have a manual with some schematics and tonight I'll check and see if the LisaLite board is there. >Firstly, since you have no idea as to the health of any > of the parts, you can't deduce anything from the fact that swapping them > out makes no difference. Not entirely true, as the Lisa 2 startup checks carry right through until it asks for a disk for inserted. So I can assume most parts are working. Incidently, the docs I have suggests this routine also checks the LisaLite controllers so (according to the machine anyway) these are ok. It's hard to believe that THREE drives all have the same fault though. All inputs into the drive are from the LisaLite board. Maybe the diagnostic checks are not as thourough as they should be. I'll report any more progress. In the meantime if anyone else has any ideas, I'm all ears! Terry Stewart (tezza) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 7:26 AM Subject: Re: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? >> >> Hi Guys, >> >> Anyone on the list have experience with the Apple Lisa? I'm having fun > > ALas I don't ahve a Lisa (I can always dream...) But I may be able to > offer some advice. > > Please be warned that last time I sent a message like this it caused yet > another almighty flamefest. Let's see if that happens again :-) > >> playing with three broken Lisa's (1 Lisa 2/10 and 2 Lisa 2s) I aquired >> about >> a month ago. The aim is eventually to get the Lisa 2/10 and one Lisa 2 >> going >> eventually. >> >> The Lisa 2/10 comes up with a disk controller error during the I/O board >> check. I don't have an I/O board I can swap out I've shelved that one >> until >> I can get one of the other Lisa 2s going. >> >> After a systematic check of what is and what is not faulty in the three >> Lisas, I've now got one of the Lisa 2s to the point where it asks for a >> disk. And here's the problem. I can't get any of my sony Lisa 400k 3.5 >> drives (all three of them) to show any sign of life? You can see the >> little >> LEDs come on inside but nothing mechanical moves at all? >> >> I have 2 LisaLite controller boards, but swapping these around makes no >> difference. >> >> I find it hard to believe that all three drives have exactly the same >> problem or even that both LisaLite boards have the same fault (although >> it's >> always possible I guess?). The only thing not swapped is the main cable >> going from the backboard connector to the Lisa Light controller? However >> the connecting ends look ok with no sign of missing or damaged pins? > > \beign{rant} > There are some people I hope I never meet, beause if I do I will probably > do things that I come to regret (like when I'k in court for assault!). > The inventor of board swapping is one such. > \enf{rant} > > This si a very clear example of why board-swapping on classic computes is > a very bad idea. Firstly, since you have no idea as to the health of any > of the parts, you can't deduce anything from the fact that swapping them > out makes no difference. Secondly, if there's somethign wrong that is > damaging parts (say 12V where it shouldn't be), you might well have just > ruined all the aprts you have. Oh well... > > As I said, I know noting about the Lisa. But a Google search for 'lise > schematic' (no quotes) got me to a site with said scheamtics as the first > or second site listed. These schemeaitcs incldue the Lisalite board > (which I had never heard of) and the main Lisa boards, but alas not the > drives themselves. > > If I am reading the schematics right, the Lisalite is an interface to > make a Sony 400K 3.5" drive -- presumably the same as the Apple Mac 400K > drive -- look something like the 'Twiggy' 5.25" drive. I don't think it > does a complete coversion -- like the PERQ (which I am muich more > familiar with), a number of the signals are software defined (they go to > I/O port chips), so obviously those could change in meaning. The Lisalite > board seems ot be really a PWM generatiro (using TTL chips that are easy > to understand) to handle the motor speed control. > > As I said, there don't seem to be any schematics of the drive > available, and I've never worked on one (I have worked on the 80KK drive, > but that is quite different). However, IIRC one of the origianls volumes > of 'Inside Macintosh' has some information on the drive interface. Just > don't expect me to find it :-) I seem to rememebr that the control > protocol for thsie drive is a lot more complex than that for a normal > floppy drive, there aren't the expect signals on individual connector > pins. > > What I would do now -- actually waht I would have done first -- is grab > the Lisalite scheaatic and check the power lines are correct. Check that > there's 5V on the TTL chips, check that 5V and 12V are on the right pins > of the drive connector. Then find out (possibly from Inside Macintosh) > what is needed for the drive to spin. Presumably a PWM singal that's not > always 0, but is there a separate motor enable bit too? In any case, see > if the PWM scircuit is running, see if the machine is trying to talk to > the drive. > > -tony > > From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Sun Dec 5 14:20:31 2010 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2010 15:20:31 -0500 Subject: SCSI on the small and cheap In-Reply-To: <4CFB71B2.10778.51D7B8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CFAAFEC.8040004@jwsss.com> <4CFB71B2.10778.51D7B8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CFBF40F.8080901@30below.com> On 12/05/2010 02:04 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4 Dec 2010 at 13:17, jim s wrote: > >> Does anyone have experience or notes on the absolute minimum hardware >> to do parallel narrow (and slow) SCSI. > > I think I once investigated this and found that a PC parallel port in > bidirectional mode could at least talk to a slow SCSI device. IMOHO, > that would be the minimum. ISTR something about the fact that the parallel zip drive was basically a SCSI device internally, but used level shifters or whatever was necessary to make it I/O compatible with the parallel port. If I'm not mistaken, I think the driver even "talked to the drive" with SCSI commands over the parallel port... but I could be full of condensed milk. However, if one were to attempt to reverse-engineer that device, it might be old and/or slow enough to glean some clues on how to interface parallel -> SCSI... I might be able to find a parallel Zip drive, but most that I cared to own were either internal IDE or external SCSI, as I personally had no shortage of SCSI-based machines. Laterz! "Merch" From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 5 14:32:44 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2010 12:32:44 -0800 Subject: SCSI on the small and cheap In-Reply-To: <4CFBF40F.8080901@30below.com> References: <4CFAAFEC.8040004@jwsss.com>, <4CFB71B2.10778.51D7B8@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CFBF40F.8080901@30below.com> Message-ID: <4CFB866C.2844.A2CAED@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Dec 2010 at 15:20, Roger Merchberger wrote: > ISTR something about the fact that the parallel zip drive was > basically a SCSI device internally, but used level shifters or > whatever was necessary to make it I/O compatible with the parallel > port. > > If I'm not mistaken, I think the driver even "talked to the drive" > with SCSI commands over the parallel port... but I could be full of > condensed milk. > > However, if one were to attempt to reverse-engineer that device, it > might be old and/or slow enough to glean some clues on how to > interface parallel -> SCSI... This was discussed some years back in the Linux fora when the Zip drive was considerably more popular. The command set is, in fact, SCSI for the parallel ZIP, relying on an ASIC called the "VPIO" chip. I don't think there's any practical way to bypass it to turn a parallel ZIP into a SCSI one. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 5 14:38:59 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2010 12:38:59 -0800 Subject: SCSI on the small and cheap In-Reply-To: <4CFBF40F.8080901@30below.com> References: <4CFAAFEC.8040004@jwsss.com>, <4CFB71B2.10778.51D7B8@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CFBF40F.8080901@30below.com> Message-ID: <4CFB87E3.28834.A8858A@cclist.sydex.com> I found the following document that details the Zip parallel interface. It turns out that there are two chipsets with different handshakes: http://linux-sxs.org/bedtime/zip/zipif_parallel.html --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 5 15:09:22 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 21:09:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? In-Reply-To: <4AEDA1B8C902473FBD707132BEA47925@massey.ac.nz> from "Terry Stewart" at Dec 6, 10 09:09:55 am Message-ID: > > Tony, thanks for doing that bit of research. > > While I can see your point, I feel board swapping does have its place in > some circumstances but let's put that aside. I don't want to fan flames (-: Well, I might as well put forward my objections to board-swapping... Board-swapping really has 2 meanings. One is replacing a PCB (or other module) where you know exactly what's wrong with it eithe becasue you can';t get the individual spare component or because you don't have the skill/tools to fit it. For example, replacing a PCB witha failed BGA-packaged device if you only have a normal soldering iron. Or replacing a floppy drive with a damaged head becuae (a) you can't get a spare head and (b) you don';t ahve the alignmet disk anyway. Now that I dislike doing, becuase I prefer to replace as little as posisble both to keep my machines as origianl as possible and to cut down on waste. But it's less objectionable than the other meaning of 'board swapping'. Which is, of course, to repalce parts mroe or less at random until the machine appears to work again. I have plenty of reasons for disliking it : 1) Particualrly in the case of classic computers, you may well not have any known-good parts. Swapping one possibly defectinve part for another possibly defecrtive part is not going to tell you very much. 2) Defects in the amchine can damage the parts you're fitting. The classic (but by no means only) example of this is a power supply problem that is causing one of the supply rails to be overvoltage. You can end up blowing every PCB you fit. 3) Even if the machine appears to work after you've replaced a certain part, you dont know that was the problem, and that it's going to stay working. It may have been a bad connection on one of the connectors that has been temporarily fixed when you removed the old PCB and fitted the new one. Or worse still, the problem could be in a totally different part of the machine. Let me explain. Suppose you have 2 parts A,B that are connected. And supposing there is some tolerance on a signal between them. In fact let's say that it's a pulse train and it's the frequency that's important. Module A outputs a nominal 500kbps pulse train (let's say it's a disk drive ;-)). Module B receives it amd has some kind of PLL circuit that has to lock to it. Now, suppose that A is running slowly, but within tolerance. The PLL on B is drifiting in the opposite direction. In the end, the system fails to work. You replace the drive first, and by chance you pick one that's still withing tolerance, but towards the faster side. The PLL can lock to that, so the system works again. But as you've not cured the real fault -- the fact that the free-running freqeuncy of that PLL is drifitng up, the machine fails again after a short while. Think that sounds unlikely? I've seen it often enough for it to be a real problem! 4) Again particualrly for clasisc computers, you don't knowe that the replacement part is the same revision level as the one you are replacing and you don't know it's going to work correctly with the rest of the machine. Yes, seen that one too. It led me a merry dance in a PDP11/45 until I discoered that the later version of one the CPU boards needed an extra clock signal to be wire-wrapped on the backplane. I learnt how to find faults _many_ years ago. And I learnt that the best way to do it -- heck the only way to really do it -- was to collect evidence as to what the problem was (that is, make measurements) then think about that evidence and then (and only then) make any repairs. Strangely that method still works today. And machines I've fixed, even if I say so myself, seem to keep working... > Yes, a checkout to see if voltages were where they should be on the LisaLite > boards was going to be my next step (and also a check of the cables). I I hate to say this, but that's the first thing I would have done, if only to prevent further damage. > just wanted to see if there was any common design flaw/fault people know if > in either the boards or the drives which caused the symptom before I went I am not a great beleiver in 'stock faults' either. Yes, if there is a known weak spot, I'll check that first, but I won't be suprised if that's no the fault or at least not the only fault. being able to fix, say, 95% of machines by stock faults is great if you have a lot of such machines to repair and can get most of them off the bench quickly. It's less useful when you have just one machine to repair, and when murphey's law dictates that itwill be in the 5% :-) > any further. Collective knowledge might have been a shortcut to the problem, > hence the post. OK, rant over, let's get back to this machine... > > I have a manual with some schematics and tonight I'll check and see if the > LisaLite board is there. As I said a Google search found it fairly easily. The Lisalite board looks quite simple (the schematic is just 1 sheet, and I recognisd all the chips on it). I didn't do much more than glance at the schematic, but it seemed to be a dairly simple PWM generator using TTL coutners and '85 comparators. I think the control vaule is bit-serially loaded into a shift register on the board. > > >Firstly, since you have no idea as to the health of any > > of the parts, you can't deduce anything from the fact that swapping them > > out makes no difference. > > Not entirely true, as the Lisa 2 startup checks carry right through until it > asks for a disk for inserted. So I can assume most parts are working. Can you? I have no idea what these startup checks actually test, but I would have thouht it as possible for one of the I/O chips that links to the drive to havee failed but in a way that it still passes the tests. > Incidently, the docs I have suggests this routine also checks the LisaLite > controllers so (according to the machine anyway) these are ok. It's hard to I wonder how? I couldn't see any way for the machine ot check that the PWM signal (the only signal truely sourced by the Lisalite board) is present and corret. > believe that THREE drives all have the same fault though. All inputs into > the drive are from the LisaLite board. Maybe the diagnostic checks are not Not really. While the only external cable from the drive does, indeed, plug into the Lisalite board, the shcmeatics show the most of the signals are simply passed (with no buffering or anything) between the 'Twiggy' connector back to the Lisa I/O board and the Sony drive connector. I think it's likely that any problems iwth those signals are not caused by the Lisalite board (broekn PCB tracks are not common). > as thourough as they should be. We don;t (or at least I don;t know) what hte diagnostics actually check. There's also the issue that you're using a defective system to diagnose itseld, and while most diagnostics are written assuming that anythign that hasn't been checked could well be defective, some are not. I've seen diagnostics that basically assume that the machine is working correctly, and which don't help _at all_ if there is a fault. I really do think you need to start making some measurements on the drive connecotr and see just what is, and is not, correct there. -tony From maurice.smulders at gmail.com Sun Dec 5 16:51:18 2010 From: maurice.smulders at gmail.com (maurice smulders) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 15:51:18 -0700 Subject: SCSI to SD/IDE In-Reply-To: References: <4CFAF40D.30108@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: Atmel and ST have ARM chips which have an SD port (4bits) - and i suspect there might be others... Another option are the PIC24 chips. They have a 8/16 bit master slave port which could be used for the SCSI interface... I think a device could be made pretty small with a 28 pin MCU and a microSD socket... Most likely a bit faster than an AVR solution... And small.. Maurice On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 11:48 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 12/4/10, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: >> The other thing I want this to support is 256 byte sectors as some old >> machines rely on this, a feature which is supported by some of the early >> SCSI/SASI to MFM/RLL boards but very few native SCSI drives, this would >> be of perticular intrest to some of the Acorn 8 bit machines. > > PET as well - the D9060/D9090 drives had a SASI board and either a 5MB > or 7.5MB MFM drive inside (Tandon TM602S or TM603S) that was presented > as 256 byte blocks. ?The slowness you describe probably wouldn't be a > problem in this system since even the SASI interface on the "DOS > board" is implemented programmatically in 6502 code. > > For the near term, it's convenient that one can drop in an ST225 > (formatted to 5MB) or an ST251 (formatted to 7.5MB), but a solid-state > drive emulator would still be nice to have. > > -ethan > -- I've clicked for peace! Have you? www.tenmillionclicksforpeace.org/?sid=80760c414LJa5893tG4095162&s=1 From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 5 17:17:57 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2010 23:17:57 +0000 Subject: SCSI to SD/IDE In-Reply-To: References: <4CFAF40D.30108@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4CFC1DA5.2020505@aurigae.demon.co.uk> On 05/12/2010 22:51, maurice smulders wrote: > Atmel and ST have ARM chips which have an SD port (4bits) - and i > suspect there might be others... Do you have part numbers ? > Another option are the PIC24 chips. They have a 8/16 bit master slave > port which could be used for the SCSI interface... I think a device > could be made pretty small with a 28 pin MCU and a microSD socket... > Most likely a bit faster than an AVR solution... And small.. With propper 4 bit SD no doubt, talking to it by SPI is always gonna be slower, but do those chips actually have the SD protocl built in, IIRC that was one of those you have to sign an NDA and pay $$$/??? to get hold of :( I don't think it's the SCSI interface that is slowing the thing down TBH, I rather suspect that the SPI-SD is the culpret. You'd also probably need some interface logic between the slave port on a PIC, between it and the SCSI data lines. Also the AVR I have used has a usefull feature where you can tag a bunch of pins and generate an interrupt when any of them changes, this is how I monitor the reset, SEL, ACK and ATN pins. I have a version now designed with IDE and SCSI, time to start building it up on breadboard.... Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 5 19:08:06 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 17:08:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCSI on the small and cheap In-Reply-To: <4CFBF40F.8080901@30below.com> References: <4CFAAFEC.8040004@jwsss.com> <4CFB71B2.10778.51D7B8@cclist.sydex.com> <4CFBF40F.8080901@30below.com> Message-ID: <20101205170555.F68810@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 5 Dec 2010, Roger Merchberger wrote: > ISTR something about the fact that the parallel zip drive was basically > a SCSI device internally, but used level shifters or whatever was > necessary to make it I/O compatible with the parallel port. . . . and the "Zip PLUS"? had BOTH interfaces > However, if one were to attempt to reverse-engineer that device, it > might be old and/or slow enough to glean some clues on how to interface > parallel -> SCSI... Or take a very close look at the TRANTOR parallel to SCSI adapters. From a50mhzham at gmail.com Sun Dec 5 19:11:33 2010 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (a50mHzHam) Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2010 19:11:33 -0600 Subject: Free SCSI CD-ROM drives -- last stop before the dumpster! In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20101204141659.0bc02b58@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20101204141659.0bc02b58@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20101205191102.0c747fc8@pop.gmail.com> At 03:14 PM 12/4/2010 -0600, you wrote: >On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 2:39 PM, a50mHzHam wrote: > > WANTED: A good home for my last three RACK'O'CD boxes by MDI. > >I'd be interested if it's easy (which means no shipping). Where are >you located? > >brian Southeast Wisconsin-- Milwaukee metro area. ----- 350. [Computing] "Formal specifications yield correct programs." No. Formal specifications yield PhD theses. They may also occasionally yield programs as by-products, but no useful ones. --Ronald F. Guilmette --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixcom.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Dec 5 21:27:52 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2010 19:27:52 -0800 Subject: Fixing small plastic... things In-Reply-To: References: <4CF8A053.7060801@mail.msu.edu> <654301cb92fb$a45a9ec0$ed0fdc40$@machm.org> Message-ID: <4CFC5838.5000802@mail.msu.edu> On 12/3/2010 9:26 AM, Richard wrote: > In article, > Gene Buckle writes: > >> On Fri, 3 Dec 2010, Tony Eros wrote: >> >>> I wonder -- would this be a good application for a 3D printer? >>> >> I would suspect yes. Check out Ponoko - they've got some great pricing on >> this kind of thing. http://www.ponoko.com/ > There's a guy in our make group that has a printer and can print small > parts reasonably well. If you want, I can have him contact you Josh. Interesting suggestion. I'll keep it in mind. The good news is I managed to (at least temporarily) fix most of the broken fingers -- I found the broken off pieces of two of them stuck inside the mechanism while cleaning it out, and they superglued back on very nicely. There isn't a lot of force applied to these fingers, so hopefully they'll hold. The bad news is that even with the mechanism fixed, the machine still exhibits the same problem. I'm wondering if it's the delay line memory -- it appears to have taken a beating at some point (the enclosure got dented in somehow). I'm not really sure how to test it :). Need to dig up a service manual. Thanks for all the repair suggestions! Josh From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Dec 5 21:31:50 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 03:31:50 +0000 Subject: AT&T 3B1 / 7300 / UNIX PC: Boot sequence from floppy Message-ID: <1291606310.29851.72.camel@ryoko> Hi guys, I've got my 3B1 emulator "mostly working" in that it runs the Boot PROM, sees the floppy disc in the drive, and proceeds to boot from it, getting as far as the Loader. When it gets to the Loader, I get the following display: AT&T UNIX(tm) pc Loader version 3.51 Copyright (c) 1985, 1986 AT&T All Rights Reserved Searching floppy disk... #### Searching hard disk... ... and it stops there. I can tell from the emulator log that it's trying to get the hard drive controller to read CHS 0:0:0 and DMA the data into RAM at 0x77830, but because the HDC isn't implemented, it locks. What I expected was for the Loader to pick up the boot files on the Diags disk, boot from that, and ignore the HDD. Does anyone know what "typical boot behaviour" is for a 3B1, 7300 or UNIX PC, when booted from the Diagnostics floppy (Foundation Set, disk 1) ? This is a bit of a head-scratcher -- I'm trying to figure out if there's a problem with my FDC driver (wouldn't be the first one) or the DMA/interrupt controller, or if the Loader really needs a hard drive controller (or a really good fake) to boot the system. I'd also really like to know why the DMA controller has two separate direction control bits -- DMAR/W- and IDMAR/W-... this seems downright silly, though in keeping with the rest of the TechRef. My "annotated edition" corrects about a dozen minor and major errors in the register set descriptions, and adds a bunch of informational sticky-notes and scribbly comments to reinforce certain points. Ewwww... If anyone's interested in playing with my emulator -- go to . Hit the link under "Mercurial repository", then ".tar.bz2" to get a Tarball of the sources. Untar it. Grab the boot PROMs, and put them in a directory called 'roms' as '14c.rom' and '15c.rom'. Use IMDU (Imagedisk utility) on a DOS PC (or inside Dosbox) to convert the Foundation Set disks from IMDs to binary files, then copy the first Foundation disk (Diagnostics) as 'discim'. Compile (you'll need libsdl, aka the Simple DirectMedia Layer) and run. I know the code is a mess, patches to rectify this (or any of the other millions of bugs) would be almost certainly be accepted :) There's also no keyboard or mouse emulation yet, just the CPU, video, RAM, ROM and a basic memory mapper and DMA emulation. As for Ethernet emulation... that's on the "maybe later" list, right after "learn how to send and receive Raw Ethernet frames on Linux". Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Sun Dec 5 21:38:13 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 19:38:13 -0800 Subject: AT&T 3B1 / 7300 / UNIX PC: Boot sequence from floppy In-Reply-To: <1291606310.29851.72.camel@ryoko> References: <1291606310.29851.72.camel@ryoko> Message-ID: I can tell you that my Unix PC does what you suggested... if you put the diag floppy in the machine and reboot, it just boots the floppy without ever trying to boot from the hard drive. I'm definitely going to download your emulator and give it a try! :) Mark On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 7:31 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > > I've got my 3B1 emulator "mostly working" in that it runs the Boot PROM, > sees the floppy disc in the drive, and proceeds to boot from it, getting > as far as the Loader. > > When it gets to the Loader, I get the following display: > > AT&T UNIX(tm) pc > Loader version 3.51 > Copyright (c) 1985, 1986 > AT&T > All Rights Reserved > > Searching floppy disk... > #### > > Searching hard disk... > > > ... and it stops there. I can tell from the emulator log that it's > trying to get the hard drive controller to read CHS 0:0:0 and DMA the > data into RAM at 0x77830, but because the HDC isn't implemented, it > locks. > > What I expected was for the Loader to pick up the boot files on the > Diags disk, boot from that, and ignore the HDD. Does anyone know what > "typical boot behaviour" is for a 3B1, 7300 or UNIX PC, when booted from > the Diagnostics floppy (Foundation Set, disk 1) ? > > This is a bit of a head-scratcher -- I'm trying to figure out if there's > a problem with my FDC driver (wouldn't be the first one) or the > DMA/interrupt controller, or if the Loader really needs a hard drive > controller (or a really good fake) to boot the system. > > I'd also really like to know why the DMA controller has two separate > direction control bits -- DMAR/W- and IDMAR/W-... this seems downright > silly, though in keeping with the rest of the TechRef. My "annotated > edition" corrects about a dozen minor and major errors in the register > set descriptions, and adds a bunch of informational sticky-notes and > scribbly comments to reinforce certain points. Ewwww... > > If anyone's interested in playing with my emulator -- go to > . Hit the link under "Mercurial > repository", then ".tar.bz2" to get a Tarball of the sources. Untar it. > Grab the boot PROMs, and put them in a directory called 'roms' as > '14c.rom' and '15c.rom'. Use IMDU (Imagedisk utility) on a DOS PC (or > inside Dosbox) to convert the Foundation Set disks from IMDs to binary > files, then copy the first Foundation disk (Diagnostics) as 'discim'. > Compile (you'll need libsdl, aka the Simple DirectMedia Layer) and run. > > I know the code is a mess, patches to rectify this (or any of the other > millions of bugs) would be almost certainly be accepted :) > > There's also no keyboard or mouse emulation yet, just the CPU, video, > RAM, ROM and a basic memory mapper and DMA emulation. As for Ethernet > emulation... that's on the "maybe later" list, right after "learn how to > send and receive Raw Ethernet frames on Linux". > > Thanks, > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ > > > From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Dec 5 21:57:14 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2010 19:57:14 -0800 Subject: SCSI on the small and cheap In-Reply-To: <20101205170555.F68810@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 12/5/10 5:08 PM, "Fred Cisin" wrote: > > Or take a very close look at the TRANTOR parallel to SCSI adapters. > > > I disassembled a couple of those, they were fried logic wise, they had 53c80 scsi chips in them and some 74 series logic. I don't think there was enything else in them (don't remember for sure) From billdeg at degnanco.com Sun Dec 5 22:22:45 2010 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 23:22:45 -0500 Subject: Drive Type International Memories, Inc. (IMI) 5012H Message-ID: <5e07c3c5$2b004eca$6271f5eb$@com> The IMI 5012H is I am told a clone of the Shugart ST-512, which is a type 1 drive, can anyone confirm this? I am, working to resurrect an IBM AT. Silly me I disconnected the battery and lost the configuration settings. I attempted to run setup, but when I declare the drive to be type 1 (or 2), the system returns a 1780 error code (drive seek error)...which makes me wonder if this is not really a drive type=1. Thanks Bill Degnan From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 5 23:07:42 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2010 21:07:42 -0800 Subject: Drive Type International Memories, Inc. (IMI) 5012H In-Reply-To: <5e07c3c5$2b004eca$6271f5eb$@com> References: <5e07c3c5$2b004eca$6271f5eb$@com> Message-ID: <4CFBFF1E.2920.27B3DC3@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Dec 2010 at 23:22, Bill Degnan wrote: > The IMI 5012H is I am told a clone of the Shugart ST-512, which is a > type 1 drive, can anyone confirm this? I am, working to resurrect an > IBM AT. Silly me I disconnected the battery and lost the > configuration settings. I attempted to run setup, but when I declare > the drive to be type 1 (or 2), the system returns a 1780 error code > (drive seek error)...which makes me wonder if this is not really a > drive type=1. Thanks My CSC "Hard Drive Bible, VIII Edition" says the 5012H is 4 heads, 306 cylinders 15MB but the 10MB 5012 has the same geometry, so I suspect the "H" is RLL-certified. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 5 23:14:05 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2010 21:14:05 -0800 Subject: SCSI on the small and cheap In-Reply-To: References: <20101205170555.F68810@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: <4CFC009D.24019.28116F5@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Dec 2010 at 19:57, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > I disassembled a couple of those, they were fried logic wise, they had > 53c80 scsi chips in them and some 74 series logic. I don't think > there was enything else in them (don't remember for sure) I've got an T358, but I grabbed a no-name unit with a SCSI 50pin HD connector on it rather than the Trantor's "Centronics" one. Okay, I'm about to pop it open... Surprise, surprise--it's got an NCR 53C80 on one side of the PCB and what appears to be an ASIC on the other side labeled KINGBYTE KBIC- 951A. So no help there. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 5 23:35:51 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2010 21:35:51 -0800 Subject: SCSI on the small and cheap In-Reply-To: <4CFC009D.24019.28116F5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20101205170555.F68810@shell.lmi.net>, , <4CFC009D.24019.28116F5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CFC05B7.15863.29505DC@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Dec 2010 at 21:14, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Surprise, surprise--it's got an NCR 53C80 on one side of the PCB and > what appears to be an ASIC on the other side labeled KINGBYTE KBIC- > 951A. So no help there. A little searching turned up the Linux sparcsi.c driver which identifies that ASIC as an ISA port replicator. Apparently, Kingbyte also used the same chip on their parallel port IDE adapter. --Chuck From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Dec 5 11:32:59 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 12:32:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: MacOS 7.x problem Message-ID: I was given a ZIP file that unpacks to two directories under MacOSX: Diagnostic1 MacUser All files are in pre-OSX "forked" format. I copied both resulting subtrees to a netatalk server and tried to access them from a 68k mac. For some reason, the second of these is visible under MacOS 7.x (tried several values of 'x')! The MacUser directory is fine - both data and resource forks are as expected. However, no matter what I've tried 'Diagnostic1' simply does not show up in the finder. I'm sure it's something basic, but I'm not much of an ancient Mac guru. Any ideas? Steve -- From keylard at ncidata.com Sun Dec 5 13:31:58 2010 From: keylard at ncidata.com (Robert Keylard) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 11:31:58 -0800 Subject: Atari SLM 804 Message-ID: <004101cb94b3$16301da0$429058e0$@com> Could you let me know whether it comes with a manual and toner? What condition is it in? Much obliged, Robert keylard From philpem at philpem.me.uk Sun Dec 5 20:57:29 2010 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 02:57:29 +0000 Subject: AT&T 3B1 / 7300 / UNIX PC: Boot sequence from floppy Message-ID: <1291604249.29851.48.camel@ryoko> Hi guys, I've got my 3B1 emulator "mostly working" in that it runs the Boot PROM, sees the floppy disc in the drive, and proceeds to boot from it, getting as far as the Loader. When it gets to the Loader, I get the following display: AT&T UNIX(tm) pc Loader version 3.51 Copyright (c) 1985, 1986 AT&T All Rights Reserved Searching floppy disk... #### Searching hard disk... ... and it stops there. I can tell from the emulator log that it's trying to get the hard drive controller to read CHS 0:0:0 and DMA the data into RAM at 0x77830, but because the HDC isn't implemented, it locks. What I expected was for the Loader to pick up the boot files on the Diags disk, boot from that, and ignore the HDD. Does anyone know what "typical boot behaviour" is for a 3B1, 7300 or UNIX PC, when booted from the Diagnostics floppy (Foundation Set, disk 1) ? This is a bit of a head-scratcher -- I'm trying to figure out if there's a problem with my FDC driver (wouldn't be the first one) or the DMA/interrupt controller, or if the Loader really needs a hard drive controller (or a really good fake) to boot the system. I'd also really like to know why the DMA controller has two separate direction control bits -- DMAR/W- and IDMAR/W-... this seems downright silly, though in keeping with the rest of the TechRef. My "annotated edition" corrects about a dozen minor and major errors in the register set descriptions, and adds a bunch of informational sticky-notes and scribbly comments to reinforce certain points. Ewwww... If anyone's interested in playing with my emulator -- go to . Hit the link under "Mercurial repository", then ".tar.bz2" to get a Tarball of the sources. Untar it. Grab the boot PROMs, and put them in a directory called 'roms' as '14c.rom' and '15c.rom'. Use IMDU (Imagedisk utility) on a DOS PC (or inside Dosbox) to convert the Foundation Set disks from IMDs to binary files, then copy the first Foundation disk (Diagnostics) as 'discim'. Compile (you'll need libsdl, aka the Simple DirectMedia Layer) and run. I know the code is a mess, patches to rectify this (or any of the other millions of bugs) would be almost certainly be accepted :) There's also no keyboard or mouse emulation yet, just the CPU, video, RAM, ROM and a basic memory mapper and DMA emulation. As for Ethernet emulation... that's on the "maybe later" list, right after "learn how to send and receive Raw Ethernet frames on Linux". Thanks, -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Dec 6 01:43:14 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2010 23:43:14 -0800 Subject: SCSI on the small and cheap In-Reply-To: <4CFC009D.24019.28116F5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Dang. It's been over a year since I opened them :( On 12/5/10 9:14 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 5 Dec 2010 at 19:57, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > >> I disassembled a couple of those, they were fried logic wise, they had >> 53c80 scsi chips in them and some 74 series logic. I don't think >> there was enything else in them (don't remember for sure) > > I've got an T358, but I grabbed a no-name unit with a SCSI 50pin HD > connector on it rather than the Trantor's "Centronics" one. Okay, > I'm about to pop it open... > > Surprise, surprise--it's got an NCR 53C80 on one side of the PCB and > what appears to be an ASIC on the other side labeled KINGBYTE KBIC- > 951A. So no help there. > > --Chuck > > From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Dec 6 02:00:14 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 00:00:14 -0800 Subject: AT&T 3B1 / 7300 / UNIX PC: Boot sequence from floppy In-Reply-To: <1291606310.29851.72.camel@ryoko> References: <1291606310.29851.72.camel@ryoko> Message-ID: <4CFC980E.3080603@brouhaha.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > My "annotated edition" corrects about a dozen minor and > major errors in the register set descriptions, and adds a bunch > of informational sticky-notes and scribbly comments to reinforce > certain points. At some point when you have spare time, could you transcribe the corrections and comments and post them? Thanks! Eric From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Dec 6 02:25:48 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 00:25:48 -0800 Subject: SCSI on the small and cheap In-Reply-To: <4CFAAFEC.8040004@jwsss.com> References: <4CFAAFEC.8040004@jwsss.com> Message-ID: I did some digging in my personal collection and while I came up empty-handed, perhaps someone else has this stuff. I recall from the days of the Motorola 6800 and 6809 an application note that described how to build a SCSI (presumably -1) interface to the processor employing common low-level components. I thought it was perhaps in the M6800 Microprocessor Applications Manual (which I have), but while that talks about interfacing to a floppy disk it does not have details on interfacing to SCSI. I'll keep digging to see if I have that material, but it wasn't where I expected to find it -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jim s [jws at jwsss.com] Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 1:17 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: SCSI on the small and cheap Does anyone have experience or notes on the absolute minimum hardware to do parallel narrow (and slow) SCSI. Back in the early days, we were doing non arbitrated buses, and they are now essentially unsupported, and there are some more bits related to Attention that possibly has to be responded to quickly to keep from upsetting initiator stacks. However I would think a small circuit external to a small processor such as a PIC or AVR would allow one to fool most initiators, and do a simple device with SCSI on one side, and either ethernet or USB on the other, or even an SD ram part. The reset signal has some real constraints about getting the drivers off the bus really quickly, and that is one signal that can't be handled in software unless you have really fast response. Also there are some state transitions related to Reset that I think might have some issues. You would of course need to latch that a reset occurred and when your slow device got around to polling it it could handle that. Also when the states are decoded would not be too hard to record and latch. I just wonder if this would be less than the simple target circuits out there and would be very difficult to implement. The messaging and selection added some logic I have not studied in a long time such that there were some transitions that could not be easily handled either. Jim From spedraja at ono.com Mon Dec 6 02:38:17 2010 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 09:38:17 +0100 Subject: AT&T 3B1 / 7300 / UNIX PC: Boot sequence from floppy In-Reply-To: <1291604249.29851.48.camel@ryoko> References: <1291604249.29851.48.camel@ryoko> Message-ID: Great news, Philip. Perhaps finally I could have a replacement for my 3B1 and my 3B2/400 (It's a joke, I like a lot the old stuff). I have a great lot of manuals of the thing, mostly for the 3B2, but casually (or not) appeared in past days 3th and 4th some manuals about the matter in http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/att/3b1/ Good luck and Greetings ----- Sergio http://es.linkedin.com/in/sergiopedraja twitter: @sergio_pedraja 2010/12/6 Philip Pemberton > Hi guys, > > I've got my 3B1 emulator "mostly working" in that it runs the Boot PROM, > sees the floppy disc in the drive, and proceeds to boot from it, getting > as far as the Loader. > > When it gets to the Loader, I get the following display: > > AT&T UNIX(tm) pc > Loader version 3.51 > Copyright (c) 1985, 1986 > AT&T > All Rights Reserved > > Searching floppy disk... > #### > > Searching hard disk... > > > ... and it stops there. I can tell from the emulator log that it's > trying to get the hard drive controller to read CHS 0:0:0 and DMA the > data into RAM at 0x77830, but because the HDC isn't implemented, it > locks. > > What I expected was for the Loader to pick up the boot files on the > Diags disk, boot from that, and ignore the HDD. Does anyone know what > "typical boot behaviour" is for a 3B1, 7300 or UNIX PC, when booted from > the Diagnostics floppy (Foundation Set, disk 1) ? > > This is a bit of a head-scratcher -- I'm trying to figure out if there's > a problem with my FDC driver (wouldn't be the first one) or the > DMA/interrupt controller, or if the Loader really needs a hard drive > controller (or a really good fake) to boot the system. > > I'd also really like to know why the DMA controller has two separate > direction control bits -- DMAR/W- and IDMAR/W-... this seems downright > silly, though in keeping with the rest of the TechRef. My "annotated > edition" corrects about a dozen minor and major errors in the register > set descriptions, and adds a bunch of informational sticky-notes and > scribbly comments to reinforce certain points. Ewwww... > > If anyone's interested in playing with my emulator -- go to > . Hit the link under "Mercurial > repository", then ".tar.bz2" to get a Tarball of the sources. Untar it. > Grab the boot PROMs, and put them in a directory called 'roms' as > '14c.rom' and '15c.rom'. Use IMDU (Imagedisk utility) on a DOS PC (or > inside Dosbox) to convert the Foundation Set disks from IMDs to binary > files, then copy the first Foundation disk (Diagnostics) as 'discim'. > Compile (you'll need libsdl, aka the Simple DirectMedia Layer) and run. > > I know the code is a mess, patches to rectify this (or any of the other > millions of bugs) would be almost certainly be accepted :) > > There's also no keyboard or mouse emulation yet, just the CPU, video, > RAM, ROM and a basic memory mapper and DMA emulation. As for Ethernet > emulation... that's on the "maybe later" list, right after "learn how to > send and receive Raw Ethernet frames on Linux". > > Thanks, > -- > Phil. > philpem at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ > > From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Mon Dec 6 05:42:39 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 11:42:39 -0000 Subject: SCSI on the small and cheap In-Reply-To: References: <4CFAAFEC.8040004@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <27CA27859A9A4B9DA51382B2F59F7738@ERODSDEVSYSTEM> This is kind of he same topic. I have a reasonable number of SCSI drives but no ST506 (MFM drives). I know they used to fit ST506's with adapters to make them SCSI. I need to go the other way i.e. have an adaptor to make a SCSI look like a ST506. Any ideas folks? Or even make an IDE look like an ST506. Regards ? Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian King Sent: 06 December 2010 08:26 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: SCSI on the small and cheap I did some digging in my personal collection and while I came up empty-handed, perhaps someone else has this stuff. I recall from the days of the Motorola 6800 and 6809 an application note that described how to build a SCSI (presumably -1) interface to the processor employing common low-level components. I thought it was perhaps in the M6800 Microprocessor Applications Manual (which I have), but while that talks about interfacing to a floppy disk it does not have details on interfacing to SCSI. I'll keep digging to see if I have that material, but it wasn't where I expected to find it -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jim s [jws at jwsss.com] Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 1:17 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: SCSI on the small and cheap Does anyone have experience or notes on the absolute minimum hardware to do parallel narrow (and slow) SCSI. Back in the early days, we were doing non arbitrated buses, and they are now essentially unsupported, and there are some more bits related to Attention that possibly has to be responded to quickly to keep from upsetting initiator stacks. However I would think a small circuit external to a small processor such as a PIC or AVR would allow one to fool most initiators, and do a simple device with SCSI on one side, and either ethernet or USB on the other, or even an SD ram part. The reset signal has some real constraints about getting the drivers off the bus really quickly, and that is one signal that can't be handled in software unless you have really fast response. Also there are some state transitions related to Reset that I think might have some issues. You would of course need to latch that a reset occurred and when your slow device got around to polling it it could handle that. Also when the states are decoded would not be too hard to record and latch. I just wonder if this would be less than the simple target circuits out there and would be very difficult to implement. The messaging and selection added some logic I have not studied in a long time such that there were some transitions that could not be easily handled either. Jim From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Dec 6 05:56:17 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 12:56:17 +0100 Subject: SCSI on the small and cheap In-Reply-To: <27CA27859A9A4B9DA51382B2F59F7738@ERODSDEVSYSTEM> References: <4CFAAFEC.8040004@jwsss.com> <27CA27859A9A4B9DA51382B2F59F7738@ERODSDEVSYSTEM> Message-ID: <20101206115617.GC21824@Update.UU.SE> Sorry to hijack the thread, but I would like to achieve the same for ESDI disks. Primarily for my IRIS 3130. /P On Mon, Dec 06, 2010 at 11:42:39AM -0000, Rod Smallwood wrote: > This is kind of he same topic. I have a reasonable number of SCSI drives but > no ST506 (MFM drives). I know they used to fit ST506's with adapters to make > them SCSI. I need to go the other way i.e. have an adaptor to make a SCSI > look like a ST506. Any ideas folks? Or even make an IDE look like an ST506. > > > Regards > ? > Rod Smallwood > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Ian King > Sent: 06 December 2010 08:26 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: SCSI on the small and cheap > > I did some digging in my personal collection and while I came up > empty-handed, perhaps someone else has this stuff. > > I recall from the days of the Motorola 6800 and 6809 an application note > that described how to build a SCSI (presumably -1) interface to the > processor employing common low-level components. I thought it was perhaps > in the M6800 Microprocessor Applications Manual (which I have), but while > that talks about interfacing to a floppy disk it does not have details on > interfacing to SCSI. I'll keep digging to see if I have that material, but > it wasn't where I expected to find it -- Ian > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On > Behalf Of jim s [jws at jwsss.com] > Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 1:17 PM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: SCSI on the small and cheap > > Does anyone have experience or notes on the absolute minimum hardware to > do parallel narrow (and slow) SCSI. > > Back in the early days, we were doing non arbitrated buses, and they are > now essentially unsupported, and there are some more bits related to > Attention that possibly has to be responded to quickly to keep from > upsetting initiator stacks. However I would think a small circuit > external to a small processor such as a PIC or AVR would allow one to > fool most initiators, and do a simple device with SCSI on one side, and > either ethernet or USB on the other, or even an SD ram part. > > The reset signal has some real constraints about getting the drivers off > the bus really quickly, and that is one signal that can't be handled in > software unless you have really fast response. Also there are some > state transitions related to Reset that I think might have some issues. > You would of course need to latch that a reset occurred and when your > slow device got around to polling it it could handle that. > > Also when the states are decoded would not be too hard to record and latch. > > I just wonder if this would be less than the simple target circuits out > there and would be very difficult to implement. > > The messaging and selection added some logic I have not studied in a > long time such that there were some transitions that could not be easily > handled either. > > Jim > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Dec 6 07:39:19 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 14:39:19 +0100 (CET) Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <4CFB0724.5060504@brouhaha.com> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <1291418957.12310.6.camel@ryoko> <20101204005248.GA24023@brevard.conman.org> <4CFB0724.5060504@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Dec 2010, Eric Smith wrote: >> This doesn't change much because !!123 may still be 123 instead of 1. > > Only on a seriously broken C compiler. The unary logical negation operator I was referring to the statement Philip Pemberton made. Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Dec 6 07:47:37 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 14:47:37 +0100 (CET) Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <20101204103710.GB24023@brevard.conman.org> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <1291418957.12310.6.camel@ryoko> <20101204005248.GA24023@brevard.conman.org> <20101204103710.GB24023@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Dec 2010, Sean Conner wrote: >>> Of course, there's always "FT"[!!b] >> >> This doesn't change much because !!123 may still be 123 instead of 1. > > Nope. !b will turn 0 to 1, and anything not 0 to 0. > > !!-1 = !(!-1) = !(0) = 1 > !!123 = !(!123) = !(0) = 1 > !!0 = !(!0) = !(1) = 0 According to the following (and I was only referring to this!): [...] > It was thus said that the Great Philip Pemberton once stated: [...] > > However: the compiler would still be correct to use the value 123 > > instead of 1, thus that code may not work... So it's compiler !!-1 = !(!-1) = !(0) = 123 !!123 = !(!123) = !(0) = 123 !!0 = !(!0) = !(123) = 0 Whether that's correct behaviour or not was not the question. Christian From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Dec 6 08:28:41 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 08:28:41 -0600 Subject: SCSI on the small and cheap In-Reply-To: <4CFBF40F.8080901@30below.com> References: <4CFAAFEC.8040004@jwsss.com> <4CFB71B2.10778.51D7B8@cclist.sydex.com> <4CFBF40F.8080901@30below.com> Message-ID: <201012061432.oB6EWLZa009371@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 02:20 PM 12/5/2010, Roger Merchberger wrote: >ISTR something about the fact that the parallel zip drive was basically a SCSI device internally, but used level shifters or whatever was necessary to make it I/O compatible with the parallel port. At least one early Amiga hard drive ran on its bidirectional parallel port, to an external SCSI drive. - John From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Dec 6 09:59:58 2010 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 10:59:58 -0500 Subject: L6: Bell Telephone Laboratories Low-Level Linked List Language (film) In-Reply-To: (sfid-20101202_234442_684173_CE3C358A) References: (sfid-20101202_234442_684173_CE3C358A) Message-ID: <4CFD087E.1040801@heeltoe.com> Richard wrote: > In 1966, Ken Knowlton created a 16-minute black and white film showing > animated algorithms for the L6 language. Does anyone know if this > film is online anywhere or if the film has been archived anywhere (CHM > perhaps?). Bell Labs used to have a historian, but since Bell Labs no > longer exists, I have no idea who to contact anymore about this sort > of thing. Does anyone know? > Interesting. On a similar (perhaps) note, I've been wondering if there were any remnants of "WESP", which I think was the "Western Electric String Processor". I once read an interesting tutorial for WESP but never got to run it. I think it ran on PDP-8's. -brad From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Mon Dec 6 12:14:23 2010 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 13:14:23 -0500 Subject: MacOS 7.x problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 12:32 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > > The MacUser directory is fine - both data and resource forks are as > expected. However, no matter what I've tried 'Diagnostic1' simply does not > show up in the finder. I'm sure it's something basic, but I'm not much of > an ancient Mac guru. > Wild guess, but might be a custom folder icon that's having it's resource fork blown away? Did you try rebuilding the desktop on the 68k machine? I'm not sure if it's possible, but you might try doing the same on the netatalk share. From maurice.smulders at gmail.com Mon Dec 6 12:34:43 2010 From: maurice.smulders at gmail.com (maurice smulders) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 11:34:43 -0700 Subject: SCSI to SD/IDE In-Reply-To: <4CFC1DA5.2020505@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <4CFAF40D.30108@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4CFC1DA5.2020505@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: >> Atmel ?and ST have ARM chips which have an SD port (4bits) - and i >> suspect there might be others... > > Do you have part numbers ? STM32 series Atmel: http://www.atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_documents/6500s.pdf 12.8 High Speed Multimedia Card Interface (HSMCI) ? 4-bit or 1-bit Interface ? Compatibility with MultiMedia Card Specification Version 4.3 ? Compatibility with SD and SDHC Memory Card Specification Version 2.0 ? Compatibility with SDIO Specification Version V1.1. ? Compatibility with CE-ATA Specification 1.1 ? Cards clock rate up to Master Clock divided by 2 ? Boot Operation Mode support ? High Speed mode support ? Embedded power management to slow down clock rate when not used ? HSMCI has one slot supporting ? One MultiMediaCard bus (up to 30 cards) or ? One SD Memory Card ? One SDIO Card ? Support for stream, block and multi-block data read and write From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 6 12:40:33 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 11:40:33 -0700 Subject: ebay: TRS-80 Model 4 (NJ pickup) $0.01 Message-ID: Item # 260703951205 FYI -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 6 13:08:01 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 11:08:01 -0800 Subject: SCSI to SD/IDE In-Reply-To: References: <4CFAF40D.30108@aurigae.demon.co.uk>, <4CFC1DA5.2020505@aurigae.demon.co.uk>, Message-ID: <4CFCC411.24595.3DC654@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Dec 2010 at 11:34, maurice smulders wrote: > >> Atmel ?and ST have ARM chips which have an SD port (4bits) - and i > >> suspect there might be others... > > > > Do you have part numbers ? > STM32 series And many ARM9 MCUs also have the facility (and a bunch of others) such as the NXP LPC3130. --Chuck From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Dec 6 13:08:59 2010 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 14:08:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: ebay: TRS-80 Model 4 (NJ pickup) $0.01 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Dec 2010, Richard wrote: > Item # 260703951205 Aw man, now there's going to be a bidding war. :-) I passed that on to Kelly last night, since he's been looking for a graphics board. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Dec 6 14:22:27 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 12:22:27 -0800 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <1291418957.12310.6.camel@ryoko> <20101204005248.GA24023@brevard.conman.org> <20101204103710.GB24023@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <429d3bc5738036d26c0d8e74e62b846e@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Dec 6, at 5:47 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > On Sat, 4 Dec 2010, Sean Conner wrote: >>>> Of course, there's always "FT"[!!b] >>> >>> This doesn't change much because !!123 may still be 123 instead of 1. >> >> Nope. !b will turn 0 to 1, and anything not 0 to 0. >> >> !!-1 = !(!-1) = !(0) = 1 >> !!123 = !(!123) = !(0) = 1 >> !!0 = !(!0) = !(1) = 0 > > According to the following (and I was only referring to this!): > [...] >> It was thus said that the Great Philip Pemberton once stated: > [...] >> > However: the compiler would still be correct to use the value 123 >> > instead of 1, thus that code may not work... So it's compiler > > !!-1 = !(!-1) = !(0) = 123 > !!123 = !(!123) = !(0) = 123 > !!0 = !(!0) = !(123) = 0 > > Whether that's correct behaviour or not was not the question. Lame. It was the question. You also said: > Indeed, it's compiler dependent. .. which is incorrect. You're making excuses for yourself. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 6 14:25:29 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 20:25:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: AT&T 3B1 / 7300 / UNIX PC: Boot sequence from floppy In-Reply-To: <1291606310.29851.72.camel@ryoko> from "Philip Pemberton" at Dec 6, 10 03:31:50 am Message-ID: > I'd also really like to know why the DMA controller has two separate > direction control bits -- DMAR/W- and IDMAR/W-... this seems downright > silly, though in keeping with the rest of the TechRef. My "annotated > edition" corrects about a dozen minor and major errors in the register > set descriptions, and adds a bunch of informational sticky-notes and > scribbly comments to reinforce certain points. Ewwww... I know nothing about this machine, but I seem to rememebr that the scheamtics on bitsavers contain things that appear to be the schematics of the DMA and video ASICs in terms of TTL parts. If I am right, that may be a start in understanding what they actually do. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 6 14:31:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 20:31:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Drive Type International Memories, Inc. (IMI) 5012H In-Reply-To: <5e07c3c5$2b004eca$6271f5eb$@com> from "Bill Degnan" at Dec 5, 10 11:22:45 pm Message-ID: > > The IMI 5012H is I am told a clone of the Shugart ST-512, which is a type 1 > drive, can anyone confirm this? I am, working to resurrect an IBM AT. > Silly me I disconnected the battery and lost the configuration settings. I Obvious question : Did it work before you disconencted the battery? In other words do you know the problem is just due to misconfiguration? > attempted to run setup, but when I declare the drive to be type 1 (or 2), > the system returns a 1780 error code (drive seek error)...which makes me > wonder if this is not really a drive type=1. There is a 3rd party setup program that will run on the real IBM AT (I know this, becuase it's what I use on mine). I has the advantage that when you select a particualr drive type, it displays the actual parameters (cylinders/heads/etc) too. That way you could at least check you're selecting someting that makes sesne. Are you using the orignal IBM (Western Digital, actually) controller board? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 6 14:21:44 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 20:21:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Fixing small plastic... things In-Reply-To: <4CFC5838.5000802@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Dec 5, 10 07:27:52 pm Message-ID: > Interesting suggestion. I'll keep it in mind. The good news is I > managed to (at least temporarily) fix most of the broken fingers -- I > found the broken off pieces of two of them stuck inside the mechanism > while cleaning it out, and they superglued back on very nicely. There > isn't a lot of force applied to these fingers, so hopefully they'll hold. I suspect it would be OK for testing, but I wouldn't trust it if I was restoring the machine (not evne if just for my own use). Some plastics do degrade and turn brittle with time (the HP9800 keyboard bezles do, for example), and I wonder if that's happeend here. I would want to make new parts. I would use metal if there's no requirement for them to be insulators, but that may be simply becuase I have the tools to make such things. I am not sure if a 3D pritner owuld peoduce a smooth enough part in plastic for this. Worth a try if you have such a machine, I suppose. > > The bad news is that even with the mechanism fixed, the machine still > exhibits the same problem. I'm wondering if it's the delay line memory Other than the physical damage, do you have any reason to suspect the delay line system at thiis point? > -- it appears to have taken a beating at some point (the enclosure got > dented in somehow). I'm not really sure how to test it :). Need to dig In my epxerience, the covers come off these delays lines quite easily. It would be worth doing that just to look for damage inside (broekn supports, cracked PCB (if there is one), etc. > up a service manual. Did such a thing ever sxist? -tony From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 6 15:43:07 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 14:43:07 -0700 Subject: ebay: TRS-80 Model 4 (NJ pickup) $0.01 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Mike Loewen writes: > Aw man, now there's going to be a bidding war. :-) My experience on ebay is that "pickup only" items suffer price depression and allow you to get a bargain. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 6 15:47:47 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 14:47:47 -0700 Subject: ebay: TRS-80 Model 4 (NJ pickup) $0.01 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CFD5A03.6060500@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/6/2010 2:43 PM, Richard wrote: > In article, > Mike Loewen writes: > >> Aw man, now there's going to be a bidding war. :-) > > My experience on ebay is that "pickup only" items suffer price > depression and allow you to get a bargain. Don't look at me to buy, I expect the fine print to read "'Shiny New Pennies', Only.". I just have old DULL ones. The sad thing with deals like this, two months later you'll often need that item. Ben. From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Dec 6 15:51:48 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 16:51:48 -0500 Subject: ebay: TRS-80 Model 4 (NJ pickup) $0.01 References: Message-ID: <5155951544444983940199BD65E960E9@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard" To: "cctalk" Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 4:43 PM Subject: Re: ebay: TRS-80 Model 4 (NJ pickup) $0.01 > > In article , > Mike Loewen writes: > >> Aw man, now there's going to be a bidding war. :-) > > My experience on ebay is that "pickup only" items suffer price > depression and allow you to get a bargain. > -- > The few that I won also end up giving you a bunch of other related stuff not listed. Mostly people do pickup only for large lots of stuff that nobody would even think of paying shipping for (and the seller would not dream of having to pack it). From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 6 16:31:52 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 14:31:52 -0800 Subject: Drive Type International Memories, Inc. (IMI) 5012H In-Reply-To: References: <5e07c3c5$2b004eca$6271f5eb$@com> from "Bill Degnan" at Dec 5, 10 11:22:45 pm, Message-ID: <4CFCF3D8.20705.F866C2@cclist.sydex.com> If the geometry is really a mystery (I don't think it is), I do have a program I wrote some years back to determine the geometry of any drive, IDE, ESDI or MFM/RLL. The former two by issuing an IDENTIFY command; the latter by a binary-search type of approach. As long as the MFM drive is formatted and readable, I can determine the actual geometry--it uses direct I/O port access (either PC/XT or AT-style controllers) and does not rely on the BIOS. (With a nod in Tony's direction) This obviously is for PCs and compatibles, sorry. --Chuck From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Dec 6 16:33:50 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 17:33:50 -0500 Subject: Drive Type International Memories, Inc. (IMI) 5012H In-Reply-To: <4CFCF3D8.20705.F866C2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5e07c3c5$2b004eca$6271f5eb$@com> from "Bill Degnan" at Dec 5, 10 11:22:45 pm, <4CFCF3D8.20705.F866C2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CFD64CE.4070708@atarimuseum.com> Weren't IMI's used in much of the earlier Corvus drives too? Chuck Guzis wrote: > If the geometry is really a mystery (I don't think it is), I do have > a program I wrote some years back to determine the geometry of any > drive, IDE, ESDI or MFM/RLL. The former two by issuing an IDENTIFY > command; the latter by a binary-search type of approach. As long as > the MFM drive is formatted and readable, I can determine the actual > geometry--it uses direct I/O port access (either PC/XT or AT-style > controllers) and does not rely on the BIOS. > > (With a nod in Tony's direction) This obviously is for PCs and > compatibles, sorry. > > --Chuck > > > > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Dec 6 16:37:05 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 22:37:05 +0000 Subject: AT&T 3B1 / 7300 / UNIX PC: Boot sequence from floppy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CFD6591.6040901@philpem.me.uk> On 06/12/10 20:25, Tony Duell wrote: > I know nothing about this machine, but I seem to rememebr that the > scheamtics on bitsavers contain things that appear to be the schematics > of the DMA and video ASICs in terms of TTL parts. If I am right, that may > be a start in understanding what they actually do. The schematics cover the DMA Address Counter gate array, but unfortunately not the Data Latch gate array :( -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From vrs at msn.com Mon Dec 6 16:41:52 2010 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 14:41:52 -0800 Subject: Fixing small plastic... things In-Reply-To: <4CFC5838.5000802@mail.msu.edu> References: <4CF8A053.7060801@mail.msu.edu> <654301cb92fb$a45a9ec0$ed0fdc40$@machm.org> <4CFC5838.5000802@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: From: "Josh Dersch": Sunday, December 05, 2010 7:27 PM > The good news is I > managed to (at least temporarily) fix most of the broken fingers -- I > found the broken off pieces of two of them stuck inside the mechanism > while cleaning it out, and they superglued back on very nicely. There > isn't a lot of force applied to these fingers, so hopefully they'll hold. If you've managed to restore the correct shape, it might be fairly easy to make some RTV molds, then cast some new parts for yourself. Vince From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Dec 6 17:08:09 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 18:08:09 -0500 Subject: SCSI on the small and cheap In-Reply-To: <20101206115617.GC21824@Update.UU.SE> References: <4CFAAFEC.8040004@jwsss.com> <27CA27859A9A4B9DA51382B2F59F7738@ERODSDEVSYSTEM> <20101206115617.GC21824@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4CFD6CD9.8080603@verizon.net> On 12/06/2010 06:56 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Sorry to hijack the thread, but I would like to achieve the same for > ESDI disks. Primarily for my IRIS 3130. > > /P > > On Mon, Dec 06, 2010 at 11:42:39AM -0000, Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> This is kind of he same topic. I have a reasonable number of SCSI drives but >> no ST506 (MFM drives). I know they used to fit ST506's with adapters to make >> them SCSI. I need to go the other way i.e. have an adaptor to make a SCSI >> look like a ST506. Any ideas folks? Or even make an IDE look like an ST506. >> >> >> Regards >> >> Rod Smallwood >> >> That would be doing the hard way around. If anything MFM to CF, IDE or SD would be far more direct. the problem is MFM is a disk level interface and you have to do revere MFM to get the data and then interpret the byte stricns for sector numbers and also look at the step and direction for cylinder, the return side would require data in MFM format and other responses like TRK000. EDSI is really the same thing faster with a bit more control intelligence. In the end to do that is a lot of complication where a MFM drive directly would be easier or to drop on the bus and grab all the control signals before they go to the MFM controller. The fact that I was grabbing ST5xx drive and ST2xx drives when they were almost junk for free has paid over time as I have a store of drives to avoid this level of pain. Allison From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Dec 6 17:17:07 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 18:17:07 -0500 Subject: SCSI to SD/IDE In-Reply-To: <4CFC1DA5.2020505@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <4CFAF40D.30108@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4CFC1DA5.2020505@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4CFD6EF3.2010808@verizon.net> On 12/05/2010 06:17 PM, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > On 05/12/2010 22:51, maurice smulders wrote: >> Atmel and ST have ARM chips which have an SD port (4bits) - and i >> suspect there might be others... > > Do you have part numbers ? > >> Another option are the PIC24 chips. They have a 8/16 bit master slave >> port which could be used for the SCSI interface... I think a device >> could be made pretty small with a 28 pin MCU and a microSD socket... >> Most likely a bit faster than an AVR solution... And small.. > > With propper 4 bit SD no doubt, talking to it by SPI is always gonna > be slower, but do those chips actually have the SD protocl built in, > IIRC that was one of those you have to sign an NDA and pay $$$/??? to > get hold of :( > Having used SD on PIC never had to cough up money. The interface is SPI and the library is not anything special at last for the SPI interfaced, the 4bit interface I never looked doing as the project was cheap, not fast. > I don't think it's the SCSI interface that is slowing the thing down > TBH, I rather suspect that the SPI-SD is the culpret. SD is the slow side. > > You'd also probably need some interface logic between the slave port > on a PIC, between it and the SCSI data lines. Also the AVR I have used > has a usefull feature where you can tag a bunch of pins and generate > an interrupt when any of them changes, this is how I monitor the > reset, SEL, ACK and ATN pins. Yes very likely, or use a PIC24 and take advantage of the pin state change feature in that flavor. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 6 18:48:46 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 16:48:46 -0800 Subject: Drive Type International Memories, Inc. (IMI) 5012H In-Reply-To: <4CFD64CE.4070708@atarimuseum.com> References: <5e07c3c5$2b004eca$6271f5eb$@com>, <4CFCF3D8.20705.F866C2@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CFD64CE.4070708@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4CFD13EE.9669.175BE48@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Dec 2010 at 17:33, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Weren't IMI's used in much of the earlier Corvus drives too? Yes, both the 8" and 5.25" ones that used a closed-loop voice-coil servo positioner. On the shoebox-sized 5.25" one (4MB?) it was fun to lift the front end of the drive off level and listen to the positioner desperately trying to seek to an inner track. Not a lot of oomph in the servo, I suspect. I think Corvus eventually bought Onyx+IMI didn't they. And then promptly filed for bankruptcy... --Chuck From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Mon Dec 6 18:52:09 2010 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 16:52:09 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Haul in York PA Message-ID: I was contacted many months ago by folks in York PA about a large TRS-80 Model II collection they need to get rid of. This includes several CPUs, hard drives, software, manuals and so on. Someone was supposed to collect this but has failed to do so and now the gear is in jeopardy of being scrapped VERY soon. If you can save all or part of this haul please contact me ASAP so I can put you in touch with the owner. This stuff should have been gone by the beginning of last month so time is critical to save it. -- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage Computer Forums marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage Computer and Gaming Marketplace From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Dec 6 18:54:11 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 19:54:11 -0500 Subject: Drive Type International Memories, Inc. (IMI) 5012H In-Reply-To: <4CFD13EE.9669.175BE48@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5e07c3c5$2b004eca$6271f5eb$@com>, <4CFCF3D8.20705.F866C2@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CFD64CE.4070708@atarimuseum.com> <4CFD13EE.9669.175BE48@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CFD85B3.4060704@atarimuseum.com> Yeah that's right, the sold a line of PC clones that Onyx was building, I've never seen an Onyx or Corvus branded PC. I have an ad for a Corvus 386 Server. Infact Infoworld announced it was the first server to use the new 386 processors. The screenshot shows it running Netware on the screen. Curt Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 6 Dec 2010 at 17:33, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > >> Weren't IMI's used in much of the earlier Corvus drives too? >> > > Yes, both the 8" and 5.25" ones that used a closed-loop voice-coil > servo positioner. On the shoebox-sized 5.25" one (4MB?) it was fun > to lift the front end of the drive off level and listen to the > positioner desperately trying to seek to an inner track. Not a lot > of oomph in the servo, I suspect. > > I think Corvus eventually bought Onyx+IMI didn't they. And then > promptly filed for bankruptcy... > > --Chuck > > > From evan at snarc.net Mon Dec 6 18:55:19 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 19:55:19 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Haul in York PA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CFD85F7.6000509@snarc.net> > I was contacted many months ago by folks in York PA about a large TRS-80 Model II collection they need to get rid of. > > This includes several CPUs, hard drives, software, manuals and so on. > > Someone was supposed to collect this but has failed to do so and now the gear is in jeopardy of being scrapped VERY soon. > > If you can save all or part of this haul please contact me ASAP so I can put you in touch with the owner. > > This stuff should have been gone by the beginning of last month so time is critical to save it. ... That fact that it * wasn't * all handled by last month is entirely my fault. I'm trying again to have some local MARCH members get it done. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Dec 6 19:42:51 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 17:42:51 -0800 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <1291418957.12310.6.camel@ryoko> <20101204005248.GA24023@brevard.conman.org> <20101204103710.GB24023@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <4CFD911B.9060501@brouhaha.com> Christian Corti wrote: > > !!-1 = !(!-1) = !(0) = 123 > !!123 = !(!123) = !(0) = 123 > !!0 = !(!0) = !(123) = 0 > > Whether that's correct behaviour or not was not the question. If it's supposed to be a C compiler, the unary negation operator can only return 0 or 1. It returns 0 if its operand is non-zero, and 1 if its operand is zero. If we're not talking about a C compiler, what are we talking about? Eric From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Dec 6 21:14:54 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 19:14:54 -0800 Subject: Fixing small plastic... things In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <25622773947bf6603d0c92ca644b3596@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Dec 2, at 11:46 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Got myself a Friden 1162 desktop calculator. This is from about > 1968-69 and has a neat-O keen CRT display and uses a > magnetorestrictive delay line memory. Kinda cool. A very neat find, CRT-display calcs of that era are rare compared to the Nixie-display models. Of all the calcs I have collected, I still have yet to personally come across a CRT-display one. > Mine has taken a fair amount of abuse over the years, and is currently > not working properly -- at the moment it powers up (with nominal > voltages, etc) and displays a normal display of all zeros, but as soon > as a key is depressed, the screen goes blank and never returns. > > The 1162 has a rather interesting keyboard encoding mechanism (you can > see a decent overview of the device & the keyboard mechanism here: > http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/friden1162.html) Close > investigation of the keyboard mechanism on my specimen reveals that a > few of the plastic "fingers" that are positioned on the rods that move > the magnets to/away from the reed switches have snapped off. >> >> The bad news is that even with the mechanism fixed, the machine still >> exhibits the same problem. I'm wondering if it's the delay line >> memory Generally, in such calculators, an operation initiates a state-machine sequence. Some condition terminates the sequence and returns the machine to the idle state. The behaviour is suggestive of the state-machine hanging up somewhere, but that's not very helpful as there can be a lot in-between sequence start and termination. Often, all the keys will get OR'ed together to produce a signal which triggers an 'operation' flip-flop, which is then reset at the end of the operation. The display working suggests the clock and a lot of the timing is working. In my experience: - you may get lucky and solve the problem in a general cleanup and inspection of the machine, - again with luck, a little bit of inspired tracing around keyboard/operation start/terminate circuitry or timing circuitry will find the problem, - you'll need the schematic to track it down in depth, If you can't obtain the manufacturer's schematic, reverse-engineering is the option. My own preference (from multiple experiences) is to do some cleanup and inspection, and then go straight to reverse-engineering - a long process but you have some greater surety of eventual success and you have the schematic for the next time it breaks. Here's my little tale of the first time I did this: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/eec/misc/ftf/index.html Rick Bensene's writeup suggests the 1162 is an SSI-implementation of the earlier discrete EC-130. I believe there is more info about the EC-130 out there, perhaps including the service manual. It may provide some insight into the 1162. The EC-130 (and by extension the 1162) is one I have wanted to RE and produce a simulation of, both for the vector display and because the arithmetic technique used is different than most. -- On 2010 Dec 6, at 12:21 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> -- it appears to have taken a beating at some point (the enclosure >> got dented in somehow). I'm not really sure how to test it :). Need >> to dig > > In my epxerience, the covers come off these delays lines quite easily. > It > would be worth doing that just to look for damage inside (broekn > supports, cracked PCB (if there is one), etc. I don't know specifically about the 1162, but the delay lines in calculators of that era are often/sometimes sealed up with rivets or otherwise not easily accessible. They were factory-aligned and generally not to be monkeyed with in the field, although the rules are a little different 40+ years later. >> up a service manual. > > Did such a thing ever sxist? Most likely it did. Such calculators were very expensive in their day and were worth repairing for the few years of their service life, until LSI obsoleted them. To my observation manufacturers generally produced quite comprehensive service manuals for them. Obtaining one is another matter. From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Dec 6 23:12:28 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 21:12:28 -0800 Subject: Fixing small plastic... things In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CFDC23C.9070804@mail.msu.edu> On 12/6/2010 12:21 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Interesting suggestion. I'll keep it in mind. The good news is I >> managed to (at least temporarily) fix most of the broken fingers -- I >> found the broken off pieces of two of them stuck inside the mechanism >> while cleaning it out, and they superglued back on very nicely. There >> isn't a lot of force applied to these fingers, so hopefully they'll hold. > I suspect it would be OK for testing, but I wouldn't trust it if I was > restoring the machine (not evne if just for my own use). Some plastics do > degrade and turn brittle with time (the HP9800 keyboard bezles do, for > example), and I wonder if that's happeend here. > > I would want to make new parts. I would use metal if there's no > requirement for them to be insulators, but that may be simply becuase I > have the tools to make such things. > > I am not sure if a 3D pritner owuld peoduce a smooth enough part in > plastic for this. Worth a try if you have such a machine, I suppose. We'll see how this works out with the glue. Fabricating replacement parts might be a bit of an undertaking -- some of the fingers are like the ones in my photos, a single, small plastic unit maybe a few millimeters wide. I can see fabricating new ones, though they're small enough that precision might be an issue. Others are part of a larger set of fingers on a single "tube"of plastic maybe 6-8 centimeters in length, these I suspect it will be difficult to replace. >> The bad news is that even with the mechanism fixed, the machine still >> exhibits the same problem. I'm wondering if it's the delay line memory > Other than the physical damage, do you have any reason to suspect the > delay line system at thiis point? Not really. The physical damage was such that the dent looked as if it might actually be deep enough to be touching the delay line wire inside, potentially dampening the pulses. I opened it up this evening (had to gently hack off some rivets holding it shut) and gently hammered out the dents in the aluminum enclosure. No difference in behavior after reassembling it and hooking it back up, alas. But at least I can eliminate that particular aspect as a problem. >> up a service manual. > Did such a thing ever sxist? > > -tony > I hope so. I'd guess that a machine like this, of this vintage, would have such a manual. Not sure where to find one, though :). - Josh From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Dec 6 23:29:28 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 21:29:28 -0800 Subject: Fixing small plastic... things In-Reply-To: <25622773947bf6603d0c92ca644b3596@cs.ubc.ca> References: <25622773947bf6603d0c92ca644b3596@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4CFDC638.8000309@mail.msu.edu> On 12/6/2010 7:14 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2010 Dec 2, at 11:46 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> Got myself a Friden 1162 desktop calculator. This is from about >> 1968-69 and has a neat-O keen CRT display and uses a >> magnetorestrictive delay line memory. Kinda cool. > > A very neat find, CRT-display calcs of that era are rare compared to > the Nixie-display models. Of all the calcs I have collected, I still > have yet to personally come across a CRT-display one. > Yeah, I'm excited about it. I love Nixie tubes, but this is a very cool display in its own right :). > >> Mine has taken a fair amount of abuse over the years, and is >> currently not working properly -- at the moment it powers up (with >> nominal voltages, etc) and displays a normal display of all zeros, >> but as soon as a key is depressed, the screen goes blank and never >> returns. >> >> The 1162 has a rather interesting keyboard encoding mechanism (you >> can see a decent overview of the device & the keyboard mechanism >> here: http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/friden1162.html) Close >> investigation of the keyboard mechanism on my specimen reveals that a >> few of the plastic "fingers" that are positioned on the rods that >> move the magnets to/away from the reed switches have snapped off. >>> >>> The bad news is that even with the mechanism fixed, the machine still >>> exhibits the same problem. I'm wondering if it's the delay line memory > > Generally, in such calculators, an operation initiates a state-machine > sequence. Some condition terminates the sequence and returns the > machine to the idle state. The behaviour is suggestive of the > state-machine hanging up somewhere, but that's not very helpful as > there can be a lot in-between sequence start and termination. > > Often, all the keys will get OR'ed together to produce a signal which > triggers an 'operation' flip-flop, which is then reset at the end of > the operation. The display working suggests the clock and a lot of the > timing is working. Yeah, the display works and adjusting the "decimal point" wheel moves the decimal point on the display. That's about all it does now. > > In my experience: > - you may get lucky and solve the problem in a general cleanup > and inspection of the machine, > - again with luck, a little bit of inspired tracing around > keyboard/operation start/terminate circuitry or timing circuitry > will find the problem, > - you'll need the schematic to track it down in depth, > If you can't obtain the manufacturer's schematic, > reverse-engineering is the option. > > My own preference (from multiple experiences) is to do some cleanup > and inspection, and then go straight to reverse-engineering - a long > process but you have some greater surety of eventual success and you > have the schematic for the next time it breaks. Here's my little tale > of the first time I did this: > http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/eec/misc/ftf/index.html That's very cool. I like the idea of building a logic-level simulation. I'm hoping I won't have to reverse-engineer the whole thing, but doing it by hand might be a useful experience... > > Rick Bensene's writeup suggests the 1162 is an SSI-implementation of > the earlier discrete EC-130. I believe there is more info about the > EC-130 out there, perhaps including the service manual. It may provide > some insight into the 1162. I'll see if I can track that down as well. I've read through Rick's stuff a few times -- he's got a good resource for this stuff. I should bug him and see if he has any info... > > The EC-130 (and by extension the 1162) is one I have wanted to RE and > produce a simulation of, both for the vector display and because the > arithmetic technique used is different than most. There was an EC-132 on eBay just this week, I was really tempted to bid on it... but I have to fix this one first :). - Josh From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Dec 6 06:46:44 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 07:46:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: MacOS 7.x problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Dec 2010, Steven Hirsch wrote: > I was given a ZIP file that unpacks to two directories under MacOSX: > > Diagnostic1 > MacUser > > All files are in pre-OSX "forked" format. I copied both resulting subtrees > to a netatalk server and tried to access them from a 68k mac. For some > reason, the second of these is visible under MacOS 7.x (tried several values > of 'x')! Ack, sorry: s/visible/invisible/ -- From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Mon Dec 6 10:29:30 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 10:29:30 -0600 Subject: SCSI to SD/IDE In-Reply-To: <4CFB7313.22217.573706@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CFAF40D.30108@aurigae.demon.co.uk>, <4CFB7313.22217.573706@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CFD0F6A.1000208@tx.rr.com> On 12/5/2010 1:10 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Okay, a faintly related question to this thing with SD cards. > > Are USB pen drives any better at leveling wear than SDHCs? The > reason I ask is that there's a USB 2.0 flash driver available for the > inexpensive AVR90USB162 chip that might also work as a SCSI-emulated > device. Any sort of buffering isn't possible, as the chip only has > 512 bytes of SRAM. But there are many other inexpensive USB-capable > microcontrollers as well. > > --Chuck > > I had been wondering the same thing. I did a bit of internet searching and found that it appears that the controller inside the USB stick does do some degree of wear leveling. I thought the following URLs were pretty interesting. http://www.corsair.com/_faq/FAQ_flash_drive_wear_leveling.pdf http://www.pcreview.co.uk/forums/thread-1941484.php http://blog.ironkey.com/?p=595 I had not thought of the fact that wear leveling has security implications as indicated here. Surely this is not an issue with vintage systems though. http://www.truecrypt.org/docs/?s=wear-leveling Then I wondered about CF and SD, and found that they appear to be wear leveled internally as well. http://superuser.com/questions/17350/whats-the-life-expectancy-of-an-sd-card I must say that all this makes me feel much better about their potential use as hard drive substitutes in vintage systems. I also learned that some of the USB drives have a RAM buffer (512 bytes or so), so one might not even need to worry much about buffering data in a bridge device. I do wonder what algorithm they use to decide when to write the RAM to flash - probably varies some by manufacturer. I do think the bridge should provide a "flash drive busy" indicator to discourage removal of the flash device while a write is in progress. The built in LED in most USB drives might suffice for them, but I don't believe I've ever seen that in a CF or SD card. Later, Charlie C. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Dec 7 04:33:24 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 11:33:24 +0100 (CET) Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <429d3bc5738036d26c0d8e74e62b846e@cs.ubc.ca> References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <1291418957.12310.6.camel@ryoko> <20101204005248.GA24023@brevard.conman.org> <20101204103710.GB24023@brevard.conman.org> <429d3bc5738036d26c0d8e74e62b846e@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Dec 2010, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>> It was thus said that the Great Philip Pemberton once stated: >> [...] >>> > However: the compiler would still be correct to use the value 123 >>> > instead of 1, thus that code may not work... So it's compiler >> >> !!-1 = !(!-1) = !(0) = 123 >> !!123 = !(!123) = !(0) = 123 >> !!0 = !(!0) = !(123) = 0 >> >> Whether that's correct behaviour or not was not the question. > > Lame. It was the question. No, it was stated by Sean Conner that if a (admittedly broken) compiler used a value of 123 for !0, you could circumvent this behaviour with a double negation, i.e. !!(!0) would produce a 1. That's what he said: > Nope. !b will turn 0 to 1, and anything not 0 to 0. > > !!-1 = !(!-1) = !(0) = 1 > !!123 = !(!123) = !(0) = 1 > !!0 = !(!0) = !(1) = 0 which is clearly not the case if you assume a broken compiler that doesn't evaluate !(0) to 1. I think I have seen such a compiler (maybe a cheap PD compiler on the Amiga, but I'm not sure), so it may well be compiler dependent (although not correct and I've never questioned that). Is it possible that we are talking past each other? Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Dec 7 04:39:46 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 11:39:46 +0100 (CET) Subject: Fixing small plastic... things In-Reply-To: <25622773947bf6603d0c92ca644b3596@cs.ubc.ca> References: <25622773947bf6603d0c92ca644b3596@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Dec 2010, Brent Hilpert wrote: > The EC-130 (and by extension the 1162) is one I have wanted to RE and produce > a simulation of, both for the vector display and because the arithmetic > technique used is different than most. Did you already have a look at the Friden patents? No. 3523282 No. 3526760 No. 3546676 No. 3725873 Christian From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Dec 7 07:37:59 2010 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2010 08:37:59 -0500 Subject: Original HP Laserjet printer, free in Maryland... Message-ID: <09be01cb9613$f6df3780$e49da680$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Owned by a coworker of mine who says it still works fine. He doesn't want to throw it out if there is someone interested in preserving it. Somehow, I've never been interested in adding printers to my collection. In the "nostalgia era" of my computer experience, what I collect, printers were noisy, messy and not worth the bother. Anyway, if you want it and can arrange to pick it up fairly quickly, let me know. Bill From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Dec 7 11:10:31 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 12:10:31 -0500 Subject: Drive Type International Memories, Inc. (IMI) 5012H References: Message-ID: <9FCDBAAD1C4543969D12CFF6EFC78C24@vl420mt> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 17:33:50 -0500 From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" Subject: Re: Drive Type International Memories, Inc. (IMI) 5012H > Weren't IMI's used in much of the earlier Corvus drives too? Yes, in fact Corvus later acquired IMI AFAIK. Cromemco also exclusively used IMI drives with their WDI and WDI-II IMI controllers before they finally went to an ST-506 controller, both the large 7000 series and then the smaller 5000 series; note that the 5000s were available with either the 40-pin IMI interface or a standard ST-506 interface and the model numbers are not necessarily unique. mike From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Dec 7 11:22:28 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2010 12:22:28 -0500 Subject: Onyx C-8000??? In-Reply-To: <9FCDBAAD1C4543969D12CFF6EFC78C24@vl420mt> References: <9FCDBAAD1C4543969D12CFF6EFC78C24@vl420mt> Message-ID: <4CFE6D54.6050702@atarimuseum.com> Anyone have an Onyx C-8000 Computer or have any photo's or docs on them? Either the Z80 version or the Z8000 version Curt From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Dec 7 11:48:53 2010 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 06:48:53 +1300 Subject: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? References: Message-ID: <34376925837442C3BD9068277237C5A6@massey.ac.nz> Hi Tony and others. Progress and pin readings from the Lisa 2 project... I've cleaned a couple of the 400k Drives thouroughly just in case the machine was struggling with the mechanisms. No change. The drives still sit there on boot in stubborn silence, although the LEDs inside are lit. No sound or attempt at disk ejection when there is a disk present. I did some measurements on the Lisa Lite board input connector, and here's what I found. I used the circuit diagram at http://www.freeinfosociety.com/electronics/schemview.php?id=1417 . The signals in brackets represent the corresponding pins on the sony floppy drive. A disk was in the drive at the time. PH0 (CA0) - 0.2v but rises to 3.5v momentarily when the machine is first switched on PH1 (CA1) - 0,2v normally but every 4-5 seconds this pulses to 3.5v PH2 (CA2) - Same as PH1 PH3 (LSTRB) - 0.2v WRQ (WRTGATE) - 4.9v HDS (SEL) - 4.3v but pulses to 0.2 v every 4-5 seconds DEN (ENBL) - 0.2v RDA (RD) - 4.9v but pulses to 0.2 v every 4-5 seconds WRD (WRTDATA) - 0.2v MT (goes to Lite Adaptor circuitry) - 0.11 Returns to drive pin as PWR - 3.6v All 12v and 5v power and ground pins read what they should. SNS - 4.9v but pulses to 0.2 v every 4-5 seconds I''m still digesting what this all means using the Lisa hardware manual here http://lisa.sunder.net/LisaHardwareManual1983.pdf . There is a comprehensive explanation of how the drive interface works in section 6 but I'm still digesting this and trying to get my head around it. Appreciate that I'm not a techie and a lot of this stuff is new to me. As I see it at the moment, the drive is certainly getting power, and appears to be getting signals. Whether these signals are the right ones are another question? Terry (Tez) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 10:09 AM Subject: Re: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? >> >> Tony, thanks for doing that bit of research. ...... ...... >> I have a manual with some schematics and tonight I'll check and see if >> the >> LisaLite board is there. > > As I said a Google search found it fairly easily. The Lisalite board > looks quite simple (the schematic is just 1 sheet, and I recognisd all > the chips on it). I didn't do much more than glance at the schematic, but > it seemed to be a dairly simple PWM generator using TTL coutners and '85 > comparators. I think the control vaule is bit-serially loaded into a > shift register on the board. > >> >> >Firstly, since you have no idea as to the health of any >> > of the parts, you can't deduce anything from the fact that swapping >> > them >> > out makes no difference. >> >> Not entirely true, as the Lisa 2 startup checks carry right through until >> it >> asks for a disk for inserted. So I can assume most parts are working. > > Can you? I have no idea what these startup checks actually test, but I > would have thouht it as possible for one of the I/O chips that links to > the drive to havee failed but in a way that it still passes the tests. > >> Incidently, the docs I have suggests this routine also checks the >> LisaLite >> controllers so (according to the machine anyway) these are ok. It's hard >> to > > I wonder how? I couldn't see any way for the machine ot check that the > PWM signal (the only signal truely sourced by the Lisalite board) is > present and corret. > >> believe that THREE drives all have the same fault though. All inputs >> into >> the drive are from the LisaLite board. Maybe the diagnostic checks are >> not > > Not really. While the only external cable from the drive does, indeed, > plug into the Lisalite board, the shcmeatics show the most of the signals > are simply passed (with no buffering or anything) between the 'Twiggy' > connector back to the Lisa I/O board and the Sony drive connector. I > think it's likely that any problems iwth those signals are not caused by > the Lisalite board (broekn PCB tracks are not common). > >> as thourough as they should be. > > We don;t (or at least I don;t know) what hte diagnostics actually check. > There's also the issue that you're using a defective system to diagnose > itseld, and while most diagnostics are written assuming that anythign > that hasn't been checked could well be defective, some are not. I've seen > diagnostics that basically assume that the machine is working correctly, > and which don't help _at all_ if there is a fault. > > I really do think you need to start making some measurements on the drive > connecotr and see just what is, and is not, correct there. > > -tony > From nathan at nathanpralle.com Tue Dec 7 09:43:03 2010 From: nathan at nathanpralle.com (Nathan Pralle) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2010 09:43:03 -0600 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Haul in York PA In-Reply-To: <4CFD85F7.6000509@snarc.net> References: <4CFD85F7.6000509@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4CFE5607.4060001@nathanpralle.com> On 12/6/2010 6:55 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> I was contacted many months ago by folks in York PA about a large >> TRS-80 Model II collection they need to get rid of. >> >> This includes several CPUs, hard drives, software, manuals and so on. > If nobody can grab the hardware, at least someone should speak up for the software and manuals. That'd be infinitely useful. I'd be happy to take those myself, but if it's a matter of needing a local pickup first, then I'm not much help for that part of it. But if a home is needed.... Nathan -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Nathan Pralle, Computer Geek Email: nathan at nathanpralle.com Web: http://www.nathanpralle.com Blog: http://www.philosyphia.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/NathanPralle -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From billdeg at degnanco.com Tue Dec 7 12:07:02 2010 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 13:07:02 -0500 Subject: Drive Type International Memories, Inc. (IMI) 5012H Message-ID: <4b5ca065$3968bde6$30c81a8e$@com> > > > > > The IMI 5012H is I am told a clone of the Shugart ST-512, which is a type 1 > > drive, can anyone confirm this? I am, working to resurrect an IBM AT. > > Silly me I disconnected the battery and lost the configuration settings. I > > Obvious question : Did it work before you disconencted the battery? In > other words do you know the problem is just due to misconfiguration? > Yes. It worked fine before I disconnected the battery. I assumed it was dead and I was planning on replacing it with a new one. > > There is a 3rd party setup program that will run on the real IBM AT (I > know this, becuase it's what I use on mine). I has the advantage that > when you select a particualr drive type, it displays the actual > parameters (cylinders/heads/etc) too. > > That way you could at least check you're selecting someting that makes sesne. > > Are you using the orignal IBM (Western Digital, actually) controller board? > Yes. original board. What I plan to do next is put the drive in an XT, because in an XT there is no battery needed and I can use spinrite to determine the drive number. It's possible given I was getting a 1780 error that there is a problem with both my controllers. Bill From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Dec 7 14:14:55 2010 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 09:14:55 +1300 Subject: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? Message-ID: <6F567F0152694CE4B18F08007C5F96DD@massey.ac.nz> I should add that these readings were taken while the machine was waiting for me to insert a disk (according to the screen icon). Actually a disk was already inserted. I also looked for any change in voltage on any of the pins when I clicked the icon to activate the drive. There was no change in any of the readings. Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "terry stewart" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 6:48 AM Subject: Re: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? > Hi Tony and others. Progress and pin readings from the Lisa 2 project... > > I've cleaned a couple of the 400k Drives thouroughly just in case the > machine was struggling with the mechanisms. No change. The drives still > sit there on boot in stubborn silence, although the LEDs inside are lit. > No sound or attempt at disk ejection when there is a disk present. > > I did some measurements on the Lisa Lite board input connector, and here's > what I found. I used the circuit diagram at > http://www.freeinfosociety.com/electronics/schemview.php?id=1417 . The > signals in brackets represent the corresponding pins on the sony floppy > drive. A disk was in the drive at the time. > > PH0 (CA0) - 0.2v but rises to 3.5v momentarily when the machine is first > switched on > PH1 (CA1) - 0,2v normally but every 4-5 seconds this pulses to 3.5v > PH2 (CA2) - Same as PH1 > PH3 (LSTRB) - 0.2v > WRQ (WRTGATE) - 4.9v > HDS (SEL) - 4.3v but pulses to 0.2 v every 4-5 seconds > DEN (ENBL) - 0.2v > RDA (RD) - 4.9v but pulses to 0.2 v every 4-5 seconds > WRD (WRTDATA) - 0.2v > MT (goes to Lite Adaptor circuitry) - 0.11 Returns to drive pin as > PWR - 3.6v > All 12v and 5v power and ground pins read what they should. > SNS - 4.9v but pulses to 0.2 v every 4-5 seconds > > I''m still digesting what this all means using the Lisa hardware manual > here > http://lisa.sunder.net/LisaHardwareManual1983.pdf . There is a > comprehensive explanation of how the drive interface works in section 6 > but I'm still digesting this and trying to get my head around it. > Appreciate that I'm not a techie and a lot of this stuff is new to me. > > As I see it at the moment, the drive is certainly getting power, and > appears to be getting signals. Whether these signals are the right ones > are another question? > > Terry (Tez) > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tony Duell" > To: > Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 10:09 AM > Subject: Re: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? > > >>> >>> Tony, thanks for doing that bit of research. > ..... > ..... >>> I have a manual with some schematics and tonight I'll check and see if >>> the >>> LisaLite board is there. >> >> As I said a Google search found it fairly easily. The Lisalite board >> looks quite simple (the schematic is just 1 sheet, and I recognisd all >> the chips on it). I didn't do much more than glance at the schematic, but >> it seemed to be a dairly simple PWM generator using TTL coutners and '85 >> comparators. I think the control vaule is bit-serially loaded into a >> shift register on the board. >> >>> >>> >Firstly, since you have no idea as to the health of any >>> > of the parts, you can't deduce anything from the fact that swapping >>> > them >>> > out makes no difference. >>> >>> Not entirely true, as the Lisa 2 startup checks carry right through >>> until it >>> asks for a disk for inserted. So I can assume most parts are working. >> >> Can you? I have no idea what these startup checks actually test, but I >> would have thouht it as possible for one of the I/O chips that links to >> the drive to havee failed but in a way that it still passes the tests. >> >>> Incidently, the docs I have suggests this routine also checks the >>> LisaLite >>> controllers so (according to the machine anyway) these are ok. It's >>> hard to >> >> I wonder how? I couldn't see any way for the machine ot check that the >> PWM signal (the only signal truely sourced by the Lisalite board) is >> present and corret. >> >>> believe that THREE drives all have the same fault though. All inputs >>> into >>> the drive are from the LisaLite board. Maybe the diagnostic checks are >>> not >> >> Not really. While the only external cable from the drive does, indeed, >> plug into the Lisalite board, the shcmeatics show the most of the signals >> are simply passed (with no buffering or anything) between the 'Twiggy' >> connector back to the Lisa I/O board and the Sony drive connector. I >> think it's likely that any problems iwth those signals are not caused by >> the Lisalite board (broekn PCB tracks are not common). >> >>> as thourough as they should be. >> >> We don;t (or at least I don;t know) what hte diagnostics actually check. >> There's also the issue that you're using a defective system to diagnose >> itseld, and while most diagnostics are written assuming that anythign >> that hasn't been checked could well be defective, some are not. I've seen >> diagnostics that basically assume that the machine is working correctly, >> and which don't help _at all_ if there is a fault. >> >> I really do think you need to start making some measurements on the drive >> connecotr and see just what is, and is not, correct there. >> >> -tony >> > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 7 13:08:16 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 19:08:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ebay: TRS-80 Model 4 (NJ pickup) $0.01 In-Reply-To: <5155951544444983940199BD65E960E9@dell8300> from "Teo Zenios" at Dec 6, 10 04:51:48 pm Message-ID: > > My experience on ebay is that "pickup only" items suffer price > > depression and allow you to get a bargain. > > -- > > > > The few that I won also end up giving you a bunch of other related stuff not > listed. Mostly people do pickup only for large lots of stuff that nobody > would even think of paying shipping for (and the seller would not dream of > having to pack it). Or for items that would be difficult/expensive to pack so that they aren't damaged in shipping. I've been very lucky a couple of times, when it turned out that the seller was actually going to be passing near my house and for a reasonable payment[1] he was prepared to put the machine in the boot (trunk) of his car and deliver it. Yes, I did check before bidding. [1] OK, if you want to be silly about it, the charge was high for the extra distance he had to drive. It was very reasonable to ensure that I got the machine I wanted in perfect codntion, and it's the latter that I care about. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 7 13:58:34 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 19:58:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Fixing small plastic... things In-Reply-To: <25622773947bf6603d0c92ca644b3596@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Dec 6, 10 07:14:54 pm Message-ID: > > On 2010 Dec 2, at 11:46 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > Got myself a Friden 1162 desktop calculator. This is from about > > 1968-69 and has a neat-O keen CRT display and uses a > > magnetorestrictive delay line memory. Kinda cool. > > A very neat find, CRT-display calcs of that era are rare compared to > the Nixie-display models. Of all the calcs I have collected, I still > have yet to personally come across a CRT-display one. I suspect the HP9100 is about the most common CRT-display calculator, at least over here [1] but they're not all that common now. [1] I've never seen any otehr CRT display model 'in the flesh'. > In my experience: > - you may get lucky and solve the problem in a general cleanup > and inspection of the machine, > - again with luck, a little bit of inspired tracing around > keyboard/operation start/terminate circuitry or timing circuitry > will find the problem, > - you'll need the schematic to track it down in depth, > If you can't obtain the manufacturer's schematic, > reverse-engineering is the option. > > My own preference (from multiple experiences) is to do some cleanup and > inspection, and then go straight to reverse-engineering - a long As is mine. Reverse engineering takes a lot of time [2] but you end up really understnading the machine. And yoy _will_ be able to find the fault. [2] Doing the HP9100B too me sevral months... In general, the easiest things to revese-enginer are ones that contain docuemtned LSI chips like microproessors. There is essentially just one thing you can do with a microprocessor, so you've got identifyable address and data buses, etc. Boards of SSI/MSI are harder -- an NAND gate or ashift register could be used in lots of different ways. And discrete transsitors are the hardest of the lot -- a transistor need not even be used for a digital function. Hveing reverse-enginered a number of devices over the years, I am happy to provide hints if you want to have a go. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 7 13:40:58 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 19:40:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Drive Type International Memories, Inc. (IMI) 5012H In-Reply-To: <4CFCF3D8.20705.F866C2@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 6, 10 02:31:52 pm Message-ID: > > If the geometry is really a mystery (I don't think it is), I do have > a program I wrote some years back to determine the geometry of any > drive, IDE, ESDI or MFM/RLL. The former two by issuing an IDENTIFY > command; the latter by a binary-search type of approach. As long as > the MFM drive is formatted and readable, I can determine the actual I seem to remember that some/most/all ST412-interfaced drives will assert an error signal if you select a head that isn't present (e.g. selecting head 6 on a 6-head (numbered 0 to 5) drice) or if you seek heyond the maximum cylinder. I've worked on several systems that use this to make sure the hard drive is the one they're xonfigured for and complain if it isn't (even it it haas more heads/cyliunders than are expected). Can you use something like that on a normal PC controller? > geometry--it uses direct I/O port access (either PC/XT or AT-style > controllers) and does not rely on the BIOS. > > (With a nod in Tony's direction) This obviously is for PCs and > compatibles, sorry. Err, yes :-). While I have seen PC controller cards used in machines that are certainly not PCs, I would have guessed from yuour mention of PC/XT and PC/AT controllers that your program runs on a PC. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 7 13:50:42 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 19:50:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: SCSI on the small and cheap In-Reply-To: <4CFD6CD9.8080603@verizon.net> from "allison" at Dec 6, 10 06:08:09 pm Message-ID: > the problem is MFM is a disk level interface and you have to do revere MFM > to get the data and then interpret the byte stricns for sector numbers > and also look > at the step and direction for cylinder, the return side would require > data in MFM format This has been discussed here many times before... I wonder if you could do somethjing akin to the DiskFerret and simply record the transistions (sampled suitable fast) of the write data signal and replay those samples when readoing. OK, it would be wasteful of the flash memory space, but as many ST412 hard drives were around 20MBytes, but modern flash memory cards are a few Gbytes, I don't think that would be a major problem You would ahve to continually replay the bitstream, of course, to simulate the rotating disk (whcih outputs the same track again and again until you chenage head/cylinder), but I think it's possible. > and other responses like TRK000. EDSI is really the same thing faster > with a bit more > control intelligence. I think ESDI is sltightly easier is that the data sepaator is in the drive and you have clock/data lines on the interface conenctor. Thus you can simply record the data line beased on the write clock and replay it based on the read clock, you don't have to sample at several times the data rate. This would use the flash memroy more efficiently. > > In the end to do that is a lot of complication where a MFM drive > directly would be easier > or to drop on the bus and grab all the control signals before they go to > the MFM controller. That depends on the machine. It;s OK to make a new controller card when the disk controller is a seaprate PCB (as in most PCs, Unibus and Qbus machines, etc). It's a lot harder (and less desirable historically) when the hard disk controiller is part of a larger PCB -- e.g. the EIO board in a PERQ. > The fact that I was grabbing ST5xx drive and ST2xx drives when they were > almost junk > for free has paid over time as I have a store of drives to avoid this > level of pain. I am not all convinced that an unused hard drive will 'keep' for ever... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 7 14:06:05 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 20:06:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Fixing small plastic... things In-Reply-To: <4CFDC23C.9070804@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Dec 6, 10 09:12:28 pm Message-ID: > We'll see how this works out with the glue. Fabricating replacement > parts might be a bit of an undertaking -- some of the fingers are like > the ones in my photos, a single, small plastic unit maybe a few > millimeters wide. I can see fabricating new ones, though they're small > enough that precision might be an issue. Others are part of a larger > set of fingers on a single "tube"of plastic maybe 6-8 centimeters in > length, these I suspect it will be difficult to replace. What I would trty to do in the latter case is make the spindle and fingers separately (the latter having a hole for the spindle, of course) and then fix then together using either setscres, solder (soft solder or silver solder) or loctite. Not having seen the machine I don't know if this is possible, of course. > > >> The bad news is that even with the mechanism fixed, the machine still > >> exhibits the same problem. I'm wondering if it's the delay line memory > > Other than the physical damage, do you have any reason to suspect the > > delay line system at thiis point? > > Not really. The physical damage was such that the dent looked as if it > might actually be deep enough to be touching the delay line wire inside, > potentially dampening the pulses. I opened it up this evening (had to > gently hack off some rivets holding it shut) and gently hammered out the > dents in the aluminum enclosure. No difference in behavior after > reassembling it and hooking it back up, alas. But at least I can > eliminate that particular aspect as a problem. Indeed yse. As I read someehwere the comment 'I've checked every darn compoennt in the circuit and I can;tfindanything wrong' should imply (assuming that the tests are valid) that hte problem is not in the circuit but elsewhere. And that is a step forward. > > >> up a service manual. > > Did such a thing ever sxist? > I hope so. I'd guess that a machine like this, of this vintage, would > have such a manual. Not sure where to find one, though :). I wonder if it was ever available outside the factory, thohgh (some companies did not release service manuls :-(). Or if it contained full schematics or if it was what I generally call a 'boardswapper guide'. HP cdesktop cacluator service manuals are invariably the latter which has caused me to spend many hours with a contiuity tester, pen and paper... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 7 14:25:16 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 20:25:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? In-Reply-To: <34376925837442C3BD9068277237C5A6@massey.ac.nz> from "terry stewart" at Dec 8, 10 06:48:53 am Message-ID: > > Hi Tony and others. Progress and pin readings from the Lisa 2 project... > > I've cleaned a couple of the 400k Drives thouroughly just in case the > machine was struggling with the mechanisms. No change. The drives still I assume you've checked the obvious -- that the spindle motor will turn freely by hand. > sit there on boot in stubborn silence, although the LEDs inside are lit. No > sound or attempt at disk ejection when there is a disk present. How do these things detelct that a disk is inserted? I know the 800K Mac drive usese switches on the front of the PCB operated by the disk housing whern it is loaded. Does this do the same thing, or does it use photodetectors, or what? This is a really silly comment, but I'll make it anyway. You are using DD (and not HD) disks, right? The point is that in some drives (certainly some erly Sony full-height osnes), the disk-insered sensor lines up with the HD-detect hole in the latter disk tpye, so if you load such a disk the drive doesn't notice it. > > I did some measurements on the Lisa Lite board input connector, and here's > what I found. I used the circuit diagram at > http://www.freeinfosociety.com/electronics/schemview.php?id=1417 . The > signals in brackets represent the corresponding pins on the sony floppy > drive. A disk was in the drive at the time. > > PH0 (CA0) - 0.2v but rises to 3.5v momentarily when the machine is first > switched on > PH1 (CA1) - 0,2v normally but every 4-5 seconds this pulses to 3.5v > PH2 (CA2) - Same as PH1 > PH3 (LSTRB) - 0.2v I don;t knowwhere you'd find it, but I think one of the origianl Inside Macintosh books has some descrition of the floppy drive control protocol. It might explain how those lines are used. > WRQ (WRTGATE) - 4.9v > HDS (SEL) - 4.3v but pulses to 0.2 v every 4-5 seconds > DEN (ENBL) - 0.2v > RDA (RD) - 4.9v but pulses to 0.2 v every 4-5 seconds > WRD (WRTDATA) - 0.2v > MT (goes to Lite Adaptor circuitry) - 0.11 Returns to drive pin as PWR - > 3.6v That suggests to me that the Lisalite board isdoing something sensible and producing a PWM signal. I asusme you don;t have a 'scope or logic analyser :-)( > All 12v and 5v power and ground pins read what they should. OK. So we now know it's not a power problem. That is good in that it means you won;t be damaging any hardware :-) > SNS - 4.9v but pulses to 0.2 v every 4-5 seconds > > I''m still digesting what this all means using the Lisa hardware manual here > http://lisa.sunder.net/LisaHardwareManual1983.pdf . There is a > comprehensive explanation of how the drive interface works in section 6 but Be careful. I don't know if that manual covers the Liaslite/Sony drive system or just the origianl Twiggy drives, but I could well believe there are differneces between them. >From what I rememebr of the I/O board scheamtics, the floppy drive control lines come from some parallel interface chips (6522s?) on the I/O board, so their function and timing is determined by software. It's entirely possible (I would say 'quite likely') that these signals do different things when you use the Lisalite/Sony board. I will take a look at the URL you mention and see if I can suggest anything. > I'm still digesting this and trying to get my head around it. Appreciate > that I'm not a techie and a lot of this stuff is new to me. All I can say is that I remember that feeling all too well :-) > As I see it at the moment, the drive is certainly getting power, and appears > to be getting signals. Whether these signals are the right ones are another > question? At this stage I think I'd concentrate on either trying to work out what the control signals are really doing (but this will be very hard without a logic analyser [1]) or I'd be looking at the drive itself to see if I could find anythig wrong there. It's a pity I've never actually seen one of these drives [1] Yes, there are plenty of ways to manage without one, but as with most things it's a trade-off between equipment and experience. Ifyuo know what you are doing you can make do with a couple of chips from the juk box and a few LEDs. If you have less experience, having the test gear can help (provided you know enough to use it...) -tony From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Dec 7 15:19:44 2010 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 10:19:44 +1300 Subject: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? References: Message-ID: <6B53EF8645AB4BF28B9D275317AC893C@massey.ac.nz> Much obliged for the comments. Actually I do have a logic analyser and a (borrowed) scope, so I can see if there is a pulse or a waveform. Making sense of the latter is another matter entirely of course. (-: > I assume you've checked the obvious -- that the spindle motor will turn > freely by hand. Yep! > How do these things detelct that a disk is inserted? .... Not sure Tony. I'm fair more familar with 5.25 inch drives. I'll do some reading... > This is a really silly comment, but I'll make it anyway. You are using DD > (and not HD) disks, right? The point is that in some drives (certainly > some erly Sony full-height osnes), the disk-insered sensor lines up with > the HD-detect hole in the latter disk tpye, so if you load such a disk > the drive doesn't notice it. Actually not that silly. I AM using a HD disk as a dummy disk just to see if it rotates and is spat out. I hadn't considered the sensor lining up with the HD hole. I actually don't have any Lisa disks at the moment (someone is sending me a MacWorks one). You make a good point. I'm sure I have got some DD disks tucked away somewhere so I'll try those before doing anything else. If it's as simple as this, I'll be over the moon. The previous owner said the drives didn't work though and (unlike me) he was a Mac man (hence should know these things, right? :-) ). > Be careful. I don't know if that manual covers the Liaslite/Sony drive > system or just the origianl Twiggy drives, but I could well believe there > are differneces between them. Noted. From the reading I've done so far, it seems to cover only the original Twiggy drives. From what I've read though the Lisa 2 has the twiggy interface, and the Lisa Lite board allows the Sony 400k drive to be used with it. As you noted, most of the lines seem to go straight through. Terry From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Dec 7 16:08:38 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 14:08:38 -0800 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: References: <20101202130806.I60380@shell.lmi.net> <4CF825B4.5080105@brouhaha.com> <1291418957.12310.6.camel@ryoko> <20101204005248.GA24023@brevard.conman.org> <20101204103710.GB24023@brevard.conman.org> <429d3bc5738036d26c0d8e74e62b846e@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <27442d8e4f3948d87f4b4edec9d65944@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Dec 7, at 2:33 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > On Mon, 6 Dec 2010, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>>> It was thus said that the Great Philip Pemberton once stated: >>> [...] >>>> > However: the compiler would still be correct to use the value 123 >>>> > instead of 1, thus that code may not work... So it's compiler >>> !!-1 = !(!-1) = !(0) = 123 >>> !!123 = !(!123) = !(0) = 123 >>> !!0 = !(!0) = !(123) = 0 >>> Whether that's correct behaviour or not was not the question. >> >> Lame. It was the question. > > No, it was stated by Sean Conner that if a (admittedly broken) > compiler used a value of 123 for !0, you could circumvent this > behaviour with a double negation, i.e. !!(!0) would produce a 1. > > That's what he said: >> Nope. !b will turn 0 to 1, and anything not 0 to 0. >> >> !!-1 = !(!-1) = !(0) = 1 >> !!123 = !(!123) = !(0) = 1 >> !!0 = !(!0) = !(1) = 0 > > which is clearly not the case if you assume a broken compiler that > doesn't evaluate !(0) to 1. I think I have seen such a compiler (maybe > a > cheap PD compiler on the Amiga, but I'm not sure), so it may well be > compiler dependent (although not correct and I've never questioned > that). > > Is it possible that we are talking past each other? In the same sense that anything is possible if a compiler can do anything it wants regardless of the language definition, I guess it is. Agreed that double negation is not a fix to the error of said broken compiler, but I wasn't sure that was Sean's point in suggesting double negation. You nonetheless agreed with Phil's assertion that it was compiler-dependant behaviour. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Dec 7 16:15:26 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 14:15:26 -0800 Subject: Fixing small plastic... things In-Reply-To: References: <25622773947bf6603d0c92ca644b3596@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <7e06467d2467b0770ca8f50b9c11f2a4@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Dec 7, at 2:39 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > On Mon, 6 Dec 2010, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> The EC-130 (and by extension the 1162) is one I have wanted to RE and >> produce a simulation of, both for the vector display and because the >> arithmetic technique used is different than most. > > Did you already have a look at the Friden patents? > No. 3523282 > No. 3526760 > No. 3546676 > No. 3725873 No, I haven't. The objective is to make a precise gate-level simulation of the calculator, both for understanding and which can be used to track down faults in a broken instance of the real thing. Patents generally don't provide the level of accuracy for that objective, so it generally doesn't occur to me to look to patents for these purposes. Looking at the first you mention, 3523282, it is *very* detailed in it's 216 pages. But therein we run into the other problem with some technical patents: they take things to the other extreme. The schematic of something is presented (is it really the schematic of the EC-130?), spread across more than 100 pages with apparently precise - but largely unhelpful - labels for the interconnections. The prose description, filling another 100 pages, is like bad comments in code: it again appears to describe precisely what is happening, but at a very low level and in a very obfuscated manner. Very little elucidation of the intent, to obtain a higher level understanding of what is going on, is provided. Technical patents like this were not intended for the dissemination of information or to assist in understanding. They exist so the patent holder, who already knows what is buried in there, when they hear of an infringement, can point to page 546187484109, paragraph 9086(j)(g)(4)(n)(8) and say "See, right there, you stole my idea." It appears there may be some tidbits of useful information in there and I wouldn't ignore it, but on the whole, to understand this patent, one has to reverse engineer it. I'd rather work from an original unit, and know what I had in the outcome. On the other hand, it could be an interesting (but laborious) exercise to piece together a simulation from the schematic provided there, just to see if you could get something out of it in the end that actually worked. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 7 16:27:40 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2010 14:27:40 -0800 Subject: Drive Type International Memories, Inc. (IMI) 5012H In-Reply-To: References: <4CFCF3D8.20705.F866C2@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 6, 10 02:31:52 pm, Message-ID: <4CFE445C.32245.F531F5@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Dec 2010 at 19:40, Tony Duell wrote: > I seem to remember that some/most/all ST412-interfaced drives will > assert an error signal if you select a head that isn't present (e.g. > selecting head 6 on a 6-head (numbered 0 to 5) drice) or if you seek > heyond the maximum cylinder. I've worked on several systems that use > this to make sure the hard drive is the one they're xonfigured for and > complain if it isn't (even it it haas more heads/cyliunders than are > expected). What most PC controllers return for a non-existent head is either "time out" or "sector not found"--and that seems to work. --Chuck From spc at conman.org Tue Dec 7 16:30:05 2010 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 17:30:05 -0500 Subject: Obscure C code (was Re: Excessive optimization) In-Reply-To: <27442d8e4f3948d87f4b4edec9d65944@cs.ubc.ca> References: <1291418957.12310.6.camel@ryoko> <20101204005248.GA24023@brevard.conman.org> <20101204103710.GB24023@brevard.conman.org> <429d3bc5738036d26c0d8e74e62b846e@cs.ubc.ca> <27442d8e4f3948d87f4b4edec9d65944@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20101207223005.GD3583@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Brent Hilpert once stated: > > Agreed that double negation is not a fix to the error of said broken > compiler, but I wasn't sure that was Sean's point in suggesting double > negation. I was replying to the following: It was thus said that the Great Philip Pemberton once stated: > So you use the unary negation operator, which turns your 0x80 (true) > into 0 (false). "TF"[0] is "T", because the original value was true. > Similarly, !0 = 1, and "TF"[1] is "F". > > However: the compiler would still be correct to use the value 123 > instead of 1, thus that code may not work... So it's compiler dependent, > but most compilers use 0/1 for boolean results, meaning you might not > spot the Big Nasty Bug until much, much later. Which I don't think is correct compiler behavior, and (ha ha-half seriously) suggested the double negation. > You nonetheless agreed with Phil's assertion that it was > compiler-dependant behaviour. -spc (don't think it's compiler-depenant behavior, but I avoid logical negation in my own C code ... ) From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 7 16:32:03 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2010 14:32:03 -0800 Subject: SCSI on the small and cheap In-Reply-To: References: <4CFD6CD9.8080603@verizon.net> from "allison" at Dec 6, 10 06:08:09 pm, Message-ID: <4CFE4563.31810.F9356C@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Dec 2010 at 19:50, Tony Duell wrote: > I wonder if you could do somethjing akin to the DiskFerret and simply > record the transistions (sampled suitable fast) of the write data > signal and replay those samples when readoing. OK, it would be > wasteful of the flash memory space, but as many ST412 hard drives were > around 20MBytes, but modern flash memory cards are a few Gbytes, I > don't think that would be a major problem Speaking as one who has studied the problem a bit and who has no intention of implementing anything, I think that a sampled stream is overkill. While it's true that the result is something that's controller- and format-independent, it's more straightforward and requires less horsepower to simply generate the formatting information, inserting the data as required. There's a floppy emulator that does this with comparatively little RAM and runs on an 8-bit 8MHz AVR. One also doesn't need to worry about aliasing effects. I suspect that a 60-70MHz ARM MCU might prove to be useful in this respect. --Chuck From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Dec 7 16:49:37 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2010 17:49:37 -0500 Subject: SCSI on the small and cheap In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CFEBA01.4030303@verizon.net> >> The fact that I was grabbing ST5xx drive and ST2xx drives when they were >> almost junk >> for free has paid over time as I have a store of drives to avoid this >> level of pain. >> > I am not all convinced that an unused hard drive will 'keep' for ever... > > -tony > > I'm not saying they will but, I do have a bunch of ST506s that are near 28 years old and still work when I use them. That and with a bunch of them it's likely that a failed drive could be not a HDA but the electronics so with a few mix and match or outright repair having a usable drive 5, 10 or more years from now is likely. I also store them at temperatures I personally prefer to dwell at so high heat and cold are allowed to be a factor. I've seen enough hardware that had been allowed to bake in summer heat (over 90f) and winter cold (below 0F) with significant swings in humidity and it tends to degrade much faster. Also anti-ESD Packaging is advised as that can kill boards. Allison From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 7 19:21:47 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2010 20:21:47 -0500 Subject: Onyx C-8000??? In-Reply-To: <4CFE6D54.6050702@atarimuseum.com> References: <9FCDBAAD1C4543969D12CFF6EFC78C24@vl420mt> <4CFE6D54.6050702@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4CFEDDAB.8060704@neurotica.com> On 12/7/10 12:22 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Anyone have an Onyx C-8000 Computer or have any photo's or docs on them? > > Either the Z80 version or the Z8000 version I have one in storage in my former roommate's basement in NJ. He and I have been out of touch for several years but I'm sure it's still there. I'll retrieve it when I can. Family circumstances will have me spending some time up north this winter, so I will actually have an opportunity to retrieve it. (oddly, I was just thinking about it a few days ago!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 7 21:20:47 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2010 19:20:47 -0800 Subject: Onyx C-8000??? In-Reply-To: <4CFE6D54.6050702@atarimuseum.com> References: <9FCDBAAD1C4543969D12CFF6EFC78C24@vl420mt> <4CFE6D54.6050702@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4CFEF98F.7070004@bitsavers.org> On 12/7/10 9:22 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Anyone have an Onyx C-8000 Computer or have any photo's or docs on them? > > Either the Z80 version or the Z8000 version > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/X1641.99 http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/X2218.2002A From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Dec 7 21:29:12 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2010 22:29:12 -0500 Subject: Onyx C-8000??? In-Reply-To: <4CFEDDAB.8060704@neurotica.com> References: <9FCDBAAD1C4543969D12CFF6EFC78C24@vl420mt> <4CFE6D54.6050702@atarimuseum.com> <4CFEDDAB.8060704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CFEFB88.3000406@atarimuseum.com> Thanks Dave, I was able to find a very grainy photo from Google Books from the cover of an Infoworld issue.... kinda looks like a rack mounted tape drive, reminds me of the 3COM servers I worked on back in 88-89' doing 3COM 3Plus Open server installs. Let me know when you dig it up... Curt Dave McGuire wrote: > On 12/7/10 12:22 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > >> Anyone have an Onyx C-8000 Computer or have any photo's or docs on them? >> >> Either the Z80 version or the Z8000 version >> > > I have one in storage in my former roommate's basement in NJ. He and > I have been out of touch for several years but I'm sure it's still > there. I'll retrieve it when I can. Family circumstances will have me > spending some time up north this winter, so I will actually have an > opportunity to retrieve it. > > (oddly, I was just thinking about it a few days ago!) > > -Dave > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Dec 7 21:31:15 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2010 22:31:15 -0500 Subject: Onyx C-8000??? In-Reply-To: <4CFEF98F.7070004@bitsavers.org> References: <9FCDBAAD1C4543969D12CFF6EFC78C24@vl420mt> <4CFE6D54.6050702@atarimuseum.com> <4CFEF98F.7070004@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4CFEFC03.7060002@atarimuseum.com> Excellent! Thanks Al... So, which is correct, did they run Oasis-8, CP/M and or Xenix or Unix ?!?!? I can't really nail down precisely the OS they were using. Curt Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/7/10 9:22 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> Anyone have an Onyx C-8000 Computer or have any photo's or docs on them? >> >> Either the Z80 version or the Z8000 version >> > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/X1641.99 > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/X2218.2002A > > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 7 21:34:37 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2010 19:34:37 -0800 Subject: Onyx C-8000??? In-Reply-To: <4CFEFC03.7060002@atarimuseum.com> References: <9FCDBAAD1C4543969D12CFF6EFC78C24@vl420mt> <4CFE6D54.6050702@atarimuseum.com> <4CFEF98F.7070004@bitsavers.org> <4CFEFC03.7060002@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4CFEFCCD.5020801@bitsavers.org> On 12/7/10 7:31 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Excellent! Thanks Al... > > So, which is correct, did they run Oasis-8, CP/M and or Xenix or Unix ?!?!? I can't really nail down precisely the OS they were using. > The Z80 box could run oasis and mp/m while the Z8000 box ran Unix. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 7 22:52:42 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2010 20:52:42 -0800 Subject: Onyx C-8000??? In-Reply-To: <4CFEFCCD.5020801@bitsavers.org> References: , <4CFEFC03.7060002@atarimuseum.com>, <4CFEFCCD.5020801@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4CFE9E9A.13587.255B500@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Dec 2010 at 19:34, Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/7/10 7:31 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > Excellent! Thanks Al... > > > > So, which is correct, did they run Oasis-8, CP/M and or Xenix or > > Unix ?!?!? I can't really nail down precisely the OS they were > > using. > > > > The Z80 box could run oasis and mp/m while the Z8000 box ran Unix. When I used a C8000 circ 1982, it ran Xenix. --Chuck From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Dec 8 00:49:26 2010 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 19:49:26 +1300 Subject: apple Lisa2. One working!! - one to go? References: <6B53EF8645AB4BF28B9D275317AC893C@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: <92712272A95242FAA7447219D3E60F37@vshack> Well, goodness. Tony, good call.. > Actually not that silly. I AM using a HD disk as a dummy disk just to see > if it rotates and is spat out. I hadn't considered the sensor lining up > with the HD hole. I actually don't have any Lisa disks at the moment > (someone is sending me a MacWorks one). You make a good point. I'm sure > I > have got some DD disks tucked away somewhere so I'll try those before > doing > anything else. If it's as simple as this, I'll be over the moon. The > previous owner said the drives didn't work though and (unlike me) he was a > Mac man (hence should know these things, right? :-) ). I tried a blank DD 3.5 disk in the slot and volia! The disk spins, then spits out with an expected error 23 (unreadable disk error code). Although I won't know for sure until I get the Macworks disk (who knows if all the keys on the keyboard work), my Lisa 2 seems to be a going concern! Earlier today I had scoured the web for any mention of a sensor in these early 3.5 inch drives which might prevented them working at all with HD disks and found nothing. Nothing in the Lisa forums either although this is less surprising as many people with Lisas also have software on the right type of disks. So tonight I really didn't expect to get a positive result. I'm a happy camper now! Many thanks for your time and input. It's now onto the next project, which is a faulty I/O board in a Lisa 2/10. I want to get that widget drive booting so I can experience the real Lisa office suite! Cheers Terry Stewart (Tezza) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Stewart" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 10:19 AM Subject: Re: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? > Much obliged for the comments. > > Actually I do have a logic analyser and a (borrowed) scope, so I can see > if > there is a pulse or a waveform. Making sense of the latter is another > matter entirely of course. (-: > >> I assume you've checked the obvious -- that the spindle motor will turn >> freely by hand. > > Yep! > >> How do these things detelct that a disk is inserted? .... > > Not sure Tony. I'm fair more familar with 5.25 inch drives. I'll do some > reading... > >> This is a really silly comment, but I'll make it anyway. You are using DD >> (and not HD) disks, right? The point is that in some drives (certainly >> some erly Sony full-height osnes), the disk-insered sensor lines up with >> the HD-detect hole in the latter disk tpye, so if you load such a disk >> the drive doesn't notice it. > > Actually not that silly. I AM using a HD disk as a dummy disk just to see > if it rotates and is spat out. I hadn't considered the sensor lining up > with the HD hole. I actually don't have any Lisa disks at the moment > (someone is sending me a MacWorks one). You make a good point. I'm sure > I > have got some DD disks tucked away somewhere so I'll try those before > doing > anything else. If it's as simple as this, I'll be over the moon. The > previous owner said the drives didn't work though and (unlike me) he was a > Mac man (hence should know these things, right? :-) ). > >> Be careful. I don't know if that manual covers the Liaslite/Sony drive >> system or just the origianl Twiggy drives, but I could well believe there >> are differneces between them. > > Noted. From the reading I've done so far, it seems to cover only the > original Twiggy drives. From what I've read though the Lisa 2 has the > twiggy interface, and the Lisa Lite board allows the Sony 400k drive to be > used with it. As you noted, most of the lines seem to go straight > through. > > Terry > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3301 - Release Date: 12/07/10 08:34:00 From chrise at pobox.com Tue Dec 7 19:23:20 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 19:23:20 -0600 Subject: SCSI on the small and cheap In-Reply-To: <4CFE4563.31810.F9356C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CFD6CD9.8080603@verizon.net> <4CFE4563.31810.F9356C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20101208012320.GJ19168@n0jcf.net> On Tuesday (12/07/2010 at 02:32PM -0800), Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 7 Dec 2010 at 19:50, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I wonder if you could do somethjing akin to the DiskFerret and simply > > record the transistions (sampled suitable fast) of the write data > > signal and replay those samples when readoing. OK, it would be > > wasteful of the flash memory space, but as many ST412 hard drives were > > around 20MBytes, but modern flash memory cards are a few Gbytes, I > > don't think that would be a major problem > > Speaking as one who has studied the problem a bit and who has no > intention of implementing anything, I think that a sampled stream is > overkill. > > While it's true that the result is something that's controller- and > format-independent, it's more straightforward and requires less > horsepower to simply generate the formatting information, inserting > the data as required. There's a floppy emulator that does this with > comparatively little RAM and runs on an 8-bit 8MHz AVR. One also > doesn't need to worry about aliasing effects. > > I suspect that a 60-70MHz ARM MCU might prove to be useful in this > respect. Yes... I have been brainstorming this exact approach for some time. I think you could use one of the (very) highspeed SPI interfaces on such a microcontroller and either do the oversampling thing with a fixed clock or the ESDI thing, using the interface clock to clock the SPI interface. I would read a track from the SD/CF/other modern media and hold that in RAM while I "play" it back to the MFM controller. When the controller says step, I'd go fetch another track from the SD card, load that to RAM, signal ready, and start playing it (and the index marks too, btw) back. This put the transfer to/from the SD or other media in the step time, which is forever+1 day in modern terms. In the write direction, you commit the track buffer in RAM to the SD card whenever you step to a different track... and again, you have the step time to do that commit. It would seem that you wouldn't really need a lot of external hardware around that microcontroller to pull this off... and the use of the SPI gives you 8x reduction in the byte rate to/from RAM. Why do you think that the sampling method is overkill? It would seem that cracking all the various header formats and sector sizes/counts would be a more involved effort than what would otherwise be just a fast bit stream recorder/player. I'd like to emulate RL01, RL02, various ST-506/-412 types and lots of different floppy types and it seems like this approach could do all of those with very minor hardware differences for each. It sounds like DiscFerret is pretty close but I'm not sure how fast it can go?? Chris -- Chris Elmquist From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Tue Dec 7 22:34:11 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2010 22:34:11 -0600 Subject: Calculator simulations (Was Fixing small plastic... things) In-Reply-To: <25622773947bf6603d0c92ca644b3596@cs.ubc.ca> References: <25622773947bf6603d0c92ca644b3596@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4CFF0AC3.4030509@tx.rr.com> On 12/6/2010 9:14 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > My own preference (from multiple experiences) is to do some cleanup and > inspection, and then go straight to reverse-engineering - a long process > but you have some greater surety of eventual success and you have the > schematic for the next time it breaks. Here's my little tale of the > first time I did this: > http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/eec/misc/ftf/index.html > That simulation of the Facit 1123 is downright beautiful! It took me a bit to realize it was never going to work in Firefox, but once I switched to IE it was great. With the decimal point position set to blank, it did seem to get stuck looping in state 31 forever when I divided 1 by 3. It could also be that I have no experience whatever with this calculator and this behavior is quite normal. :-) I found it curious that the only + function is to memory, and I found the M+ and MR operation to not be intuitive but that's probably just my ignorance as well. Again, this was with the DP position blank; maybe that is just not intended or I don't understand it's purpose. I've bookmarked your website for future reference as I can envision several other uses for that simulation language. Later, Charlie C. From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Dec 8 07:32:55 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 05:32:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Onyx C-8000??? In-Reply-To: <4CFEFC03.7060002@atarimuseum.com> References: <9FCDBAAD1C4543969D12CFF6EFC78C24@vl420mt> <4CFE6D54.6050702@atarimuseum.com> <4CFEF98F.7070004@bitsavers.org> <4CFEFC03.7060002@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Dec 2010, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Excellent! Thanks Al... > > So, which is correct, did they run Oasis-8, CP/M and or Xenix or Unix ?!?!? > I can't really nail down precisely the OS they were using. > I wish I had more to give you, but there was a BBS in the Federal Way, WA area back in the mid 80's that ran a custom Citadel on an Onyx system - AFAIK it was a Xenix system of some kind. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From rickb at bensene.com Wed Dec 8 08:55:00 2010 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 06:55:00 -0800 Subject: Calculator simulations In-Reply-To: <4CFF0AC3.4030509@tx.rr.com> References: <25622773947bf6603d0c92ca644b3596@cs.ubc.ca> <4CFF0AC3.4030509@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: Charlie C. wrote: > With the decimal point position set to blank, it did seem to get stuck > looping in state 31 forever when I divided 1 by 3. It could also be > that I have no experience whatever with this calculator and this > behavior is quite normal. :-) I found it curious that the only + > function is to memory, and I found the M+ and MR operation to not be > intuitive but that's probably just my ignorance as well. Again, this > was with the DP position blank; maybe that is just not intended or I > don't understand it's purpose. > The blank position of the decimal point setting switch does cause odd behavior in this class of machines. Why Sharp (who designed the guts for many Facit calculators of this time) put a rotary switch in with a position that led to incorrect operation isn't clear. Similar Sharp machines exhibit the same behavior. The really cool thing about Brent's simulations is that they are so accurate that they properly reproduce this behavior. Brent's reverse-engineering skills are truly epic. To add, the "=" key is used. Enter a number, press "=". It is added to the display. For example, to add 16 to 45, enter 16, press "=", enter 45, press "=", and the answer is in the display. To subtract, just enter the number to be subtracted, and press the "-" key. For example to subtract 9 from the result, simply enter 9, then press "-". Brent's simulation of the Facit 1123 does add the memory function keys that don't actually exist on the Facit 1123 model. The circuitry is all there for the memory functions, but on the actual machine, the keys weren't on the keyboard. A different model (that cost more) included the memory keys. The memory is a separate register that can be added to or subtracted from. The M+ and M- keys add or subtract the number in the display from the memory register. The CM key clears the memory register, and the MR key brings up the content of the memory register into the display. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From dbetz at xlisper.com Wed Dec 8 09:33:56 2010 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 10:33:56 -0500 Subject: Onyx C-8000??? In-Reply-To: <4CFEFC03.7060002@atarimuseum.com> References: <9FCDBAAD1C4543969D12CFF6EFC78C24@vl420mt> <4CFE6D54.6050702@atarimuseum.com> <4CFEF98F.7070004@bitsavers.org> <4CFEFC03.7060002@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <7F2B1317-6B1F-4326-AEE3-F5E5DBBE2812@xlisper.com> On Dec 7, 2010, at 10:31 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Excellent! Thanks Al... > > So, which is correct, did they run Oasis-8, CP/M and or Xenix or Unix ?!?!? I can't really nail down precisely the OS they were using. I have a friend whose company worked with Onyx C800x systems when they were current. He said that they ran a flavor of Unix that was ported by Onyx themselves called Onix. He still has a couple of machines but hasn't powered them up in years. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 8 11:31:00 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2010 09:31:00 -0800 Subject: SCSI on the small and cheap In-Reply-To: <20101208012320.GJ19168@n0jcf.net> References: <4CFD6CD9.8080603@verizon.net>, <4CFE4563.31810.F9356C@cclist.sydex.com>, <20101208012320.GJ19168@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4CFF5054.29990.DC8DE@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Dec 2010 at 19:23, Chris Elmquist wrote: > Why do you think that the sampling method is overkill? It would seem > that cracking all the various header formats and sector sizes/counts > would be a more involved effort than what would otherwise be just a > fast bit stream recorder/player. I'd assume that you want to use an 8-bit memory, right? So you'd serialize to a bit stream of some sort as you read the memory, right? Now, a write splice can occur anywhere within each 8 bit byte, so you'd need a read-ahead write-behind sort of setup. And you'll get quantization errors that will need to be corrected eventually (where the bit transition occurs between sampling intervals). I don't doubt that it could work, but it just seems like a lot of work where the primary variation in formats is not with datarate or encoding but in details of header ID bytes. Your poison, I've still got enough drives to last me until they put me away... --Chuck From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Dec 8 06:11:55 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 07:11:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: MacOS 7.x problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Dec 2010, Jason McBrien wrote: > On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 12:32 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > >> >> The MacUser directory is fine - both data and resource forks are as >> expected. However, no matter what I've tried 'Diagnostic1' simply does not >> show up in the finder. I'm sure it's something basic, but I'm not much of >> an ancient Mac guru. >> > > Wild guess, but might be a custom folder icon that's having it's resource > fork blown away? Did you try rebuilding the desktop on the 68k machine? I'm > not sure if it's possible, but you might try doing the same on the netatalk > share. Good thought, but there is no icon information in the netatalk metadata (it has a dedicated file for desktop info). I believe this is something much more basic. -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Dec 8 06:16:05 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 07:16:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: Drive Type International Memories, Inc. (IMI) 5012H In-Reply-To: <9FCDBAAD1C4543969D12CFF6EFC78C24@vl420mt> References: <9FCDBAAD1C4543969D12CFF6EFC78C24@vl420mt> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Dec 2010, MikeS wrote: > Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 17:33:50 -0500 > From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" > Subject: Re: Drive Type International Memories, Inc. (IMI) 5012H > >> Weren't IMI's used in much of the earlier Corvus drives too? > > Yes, in fact Corvus later acquired IMI AFAIK. And, unfortunately, the older "flat cable" Corvus systems will only work with IMI drives. I've tried Seagates with the same geometry as replacements with no success. There's something different in their behavior. One of these days I'll get ahold of a logic analyzer and try to figure out what it is. -- From clay at ArcherServices.com Wed Dec 8 13:40:28 2010 From: clay at ArcherServices.com (Clay Archer) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 12:40:28 -0700 Subject: Original HP Laserjet printer, free in Maryland... Message-ID: I still have some parts for the original LaserJet. If I recall correctly, the engine was made by Canon and was also used in printers by other manufacturers like QMS and Canon. I installed & maintained quite a few of them. As far as collecting printers, I still have a few that are small enough to hold onto. I have a Kleinschmidt drum printer (1960's?) and an Axiohm aluminized-thermal printer from the late 70's. I had to give up all my Teletype's (ASR-33 and an older model) as well as a chain printer, Printronix line printer, and a wet-process "laser" printer from the early 70's (?) I think it was a Xerox. Just took up too much space. They are all a part of history; I hope someone out there is holding onto them. Clay --------------------------------------------------- Owned by a coworker of mine who says it still works fine. He doesn't want to throw it out if there is someone interested in preserving it. Somehow, I've never been interested in adding printers to my collection. In the "nostalgia era" of my computer experience, what I collect, printers were noisy, messy and not worth the bother. Anyway, if you want it and can arrange to pick it up fairly quickly, let me know. Bill From clay at ArcherServices.com Wed Dec 8 13:57:38 2010 From: clay at ArcherServices.com (Clay Archer) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 12:57:38 -0700 Subject: HP 87 Keyboard parts (plungers)... Message-ID: I recently acquired an HP 87 that I was able to repair, all except for a few sticking keys. From digging through the archives at this site and the HP-80 Series sites it seems the only way people have found to fix these is to cannibalize the plungers from other similar keyboards. Has anyone figured out a way to repair these cracked key plungers yet? I have tried a few things like gluing and wrapping and melting, etc, with little success. Does anyone know a source for these plungers? The HP part number 1535-4043 still comes up on HP parts site with no stock. Clay From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Dec 8 14:49:25 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 12:49:25 -0800 Subject: MacOS 7.x problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7bdc128ea9e375247035e7750d40a430@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Dec 8, at 4:11 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Mon, 6 Dec 2010, Jason McBrien wrote: >> On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 12:32 PM, Steven Hirsch >> wrote: >>> The MacUser directory is fine - both data and resource forks are as >>> expected. However, no matter what I've tried 'Diagnostic1' simply >>> does not >>> show up in the finder. I'm sure it's something basic, but I'm not >>> much of >>> an ancient Mac guru. >> >> Wild guess, but might be a custom folder icon that's having it's >> resource >> fork blown away? Did you try rebuilding the desktop on the 68k >> machine? I'm >> not sure if it's possible, but you might try doing the same on the >> netatalk >> share. > > Good thought, but there is no icon information in the netatalk > metadata (it has a dedicated file for desktop info). I believe this > is something much more basic. If I'm following this correctly, a file - which you know exists - is not showing up in the finder windows or desktop? IIRC, there is a HIDDEN attribute for files in the old MacOS, which can be accessed through something like ResEdit or the Norton Utilities. I'd have to fire up an MacOS 9 machine to check and I'm not sure the machine I could easily fire up has the utility to double-check the matter installed. Aren't there some MacExperts here? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 8 13:34:07 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 19:34:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? In-Reply-To: <6B53EF8645AB4BF28B9D275317AC893C@massey.ac.nz> from "Terry Stewart" at Dec 8, 10 10:19:44 am Message-ID: > > Much obliged for the comments. > > Actually I do have a logic analyser and a (borrowed) scope, so I can see if > there is a pulse or a waveform. Making sense of the latter is another > matter entirely of course. (-: Indeed. What non-trchnical people don't realise is that there isn't (normally) a magic box you can plug into a non-working whatever that will tell you what is wrong. Instead there are many instruments which will let you discover (in part) what the deicce is doing, but you need a brain/experience to interpret the results. > > > How do these things detelct that a disk is inserted? .... > > Not sure Tony. I'm fair more familar with 5.25 inch drives. I'll do some > reading... II would have lookedas ther drives themselves (given that the drive was not manyufactered by Apple, and that the internal design could well have been modified druign the prodsuction run, so documentation my not be that accurate). Basically there are only 2 types of sensors used -- mechanical swtiches and LED/phototransistor light barriers. The latter may be a single component, such as a slotted optoswitch. A mechanical switch could detect the disk holder coming down, or the disk itelf in the holder (often the latter). A light barrier could be interrupted by the disk itself (rare), a tab on the disk holder, or a 'flag' moved when the disk slots into position. If it were my drive, I would take off any removeable covers and then look for swiches and sensors and see what happens when a disk is loaded and ejected manually. As an aside, one book I have on teleprinters (actually on amateru RTTY using Creed 7s, etc) suggests turnign the motor by hand (power off, of course) and operating keys, the receive magent, etc and watching just how things work. I did this and learnt a lot... (One thing, nothing to do with Apples or disk drives is that in some machines there are clutches that depedn o nthe motor speed to latch up properly., If you turn the machine slowly by hand, you need to latch them up manually before applying power (or at least release them as soon as possible after applying power to the motor so they can latch up properly. Otherwise they will wear very quickyl). > > > This is a really silly comment, but I'll make it anyway. You are using DD > > (and not HD) disks, right? The point is that in some drives (certainly > > some erly Sony full-height osnes), the disk-insered sensor lines up with > > the HD-detect hole in the latter disk tpye, so if you load such a disk > > the drive doesn't notice it. > > Actually not that silly. I AM using a HD disk as a dummy disk just to see Actually, I have learnt many times over the years that the thing which is so obvious that it's not checked is the cause of the problem. Been cuaght by things like that more times than I can remember. > if it rotates and is spat out. I hadn't considered the sensor lining up > with the HD hole. I actually don't have any Lisa disks at the moment I know that the Sony full-height 3.5" drives used in soem HP machiens certainyly have a disk-inserted sensor that lines up with the HD hole and such drives will not detect HD disks. I've heard 2 explanations of this : It prevents you using HD disks in drives without sufficient write current to write them properly ; or having put a sensor in that position it made sense to keep it there and use it for the HD detection. I don't know. > (someone is sending me a MacWorks one). You make a good point. I'm sure I I think i'd been assuming that as the Lisa has a very non-standard disk format (I assume it's GCR), that you would have been using real Lisa disks in that nothign else could he read by the machine. And that would have implied DD. I didn't ealise you were using a scratch disk just to see if it tried to read it. > have got some DD disks tucked away somewhere so I'll try those before doing > anything else. If it's as simple as this, I'll be over the moon. The I see from your other message that this seems to have been at least part of the problem. WIthout a Lisa disk, I guess you can't be sure it's working properelt, but at least it detects and spins up the disk now. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 8 13:37:47 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 19:37:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Fixing small plastic... things In-Reply-To: <7e06467d2467b0770ca8f50b9c11f2a4@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Dec 7, 10 02:15:26 pm Message-ID: > > On 2010 Dec 7, at 2:39 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > > On Mon, 6 Dec 2010, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> The EC-130 (and by extension the 1162) is one I have wanted to RE and > >> produce a simulation of, both for the vector display and because the > >> arithmetic technique used is different than most. > > > > Did you already have a look at the Friden patents? > > No. 3523282 > > No. 3526760 > > No. 3546676 > > No. 3725873 > > No, I haven't. The objective is to make a precise gate-level simulation > of the calculator, both for understanding and which can be used to > track down faults in a broken instance of the real thing. Patents > generally don't provide the level of accuracy for that objective, so it > generally doesn't occur to me to look to patents for these purposes. As n aside, some of the HP desktop calcualtor patents are very detailed, and include sechematics, commented firmware source, extension ROM sources, and so on. But as you imply, there are often suble differences between the machien described i nthe patent and the actual prodcution model. I regard these patents as a very useful resource and well worth reading, but you need to check against an actual machine. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 8 13:48:36 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 19:48:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Drive Type International Memories, Inc. (IMI) 5012H In-Reply-To: <4CFE445C.32245.F531F5@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 7, 10 02:27:40 pm Message-ID: > > On 7 Dec 2010 at 19:40, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I seem to remember that some/most/all ST412-interfaced drives will > > assert an error signal if you select a head that isn't present (e.g. > > selecting head 6 on a 6-head (numbered 0 to 5) drice) or if you seek > > heyond the maximum cylinder. I've worked on several systems that use > > this to make sure the hard drive is the one they're xonfigured for and > > complain if it isn't (even it it haas more heads/cyliunders than are > > expected). > > What most PC controllers return for a non-existent head is either > "time out" or "sector not found"--and that seems to work. The advantage of using the hardware error line from the drive (if you can) is that iy doesn't require the drive to be formatted in a way that the controller understands. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 8 13:52:15 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 19:52:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: SCSI on the small and cheap In-Reply-To: <4CFE4563.31810.F9356C@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 7, 10 02:32:03 pm Message-ID: > > On 7 Dec 2010 at 19:50, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I wonder if you could do somethjing akin to the DiskFerret and simply > > record the transistions (sampled suitable fast) of the write data > > signal and replay those samples when readoing. OK, it would be > > wasteful of the flash memory space, but as many ST412 hard drives were > > around 20MBytes, but modern flash memory cards are a few Gbytes, I > > don't think that would be a major problem > > Speaking as one who has studied the problem a bit and who has no > intention of implementing anything, I think that a sampled stream is > overkill. > > While it's true that the result is something that's controller- and > format-independent, it's more straightforward and requires less > horsepower to simply generate the formatting information, inserting > the data as required. There's a floppy emulator that does this with > comparatively little RAM and runs on an 8-bit 8MHz AVR. One also > doesn't need to worry about aliasing effects. Does that floppy emulator work on _any_ possible floppy controller, or does it assume a 'normal' FM or MFM one (or perhaps an Apple ][ GCR one)? There are some pretty strange ST412 controllers out there -- take a look at the PERQ one, for example. It does not uise normal sector headers. And of course that's one machine that it would be useful to have a drive emulator for. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 8 14:19:23 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 20:19:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: apple Lisa2. One working!! - one to go? In-Reply-To: <92712272A95242FAA7447219D3E60F37@vshack> from "Terry Stewart" at Dec 8, 10 07:49:26 pm Message-ID: > Many thanks for your time and input. No problem... Diagnosing faults is much more fun that flamewars about musuems ;-) > > It's now onto the next project, which is a faulty I/O board in a Lisa 2/10. > I want to get that widget drive booting so I can experience the real Lisa > office suite! I've had a quick look at the I/O board schematics on the web. It looks to be several somewhat independant sectioms, each one (apart from the FDC, which has its own 6504 microprocessor..) fairly simple. Do you have any idea where the fault is? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 8 14:59:07 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 20:59:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Original HP Laserjet printer, free in Maryland... In-Reply-To: from "Clay Archer" at Dec 8, 10 12:40:28 pm Message-ID: > > I still have some parts for the original LaserJet. If I recall > correctly, the engine was made by Canon and was also used in printers by Yes, it was the Canon CX engine. Canon sold the CX-VDO mdoel with no formatter board ('video interfacve') and the LBP8A1, etc with their own formatter, Ohter manufacturers made their own formatter boards. Actually the HP Laserjet used the Cannon formatter board with different firmware ROMs. > other manufacturers like QMS and Canon. I installed & maintained quite > a few of them. I still have the CX-VDO that I built (after much hacking) from a defective LBP8A1. I have the laser printer interface in my PERQ which drives this printer (and almsot noting else). Alas CX toner cartridges are unobtainable now. > =20 > As far as collecting printers, I still have a few that are small enough > to hold onto. I have a Kleinschmidt drum printer (1960's?) and an > Axiohm aluminized-thermal printer from the late 70's. I had to give up > all my Teletype's (ASR-33 and an older model) as well as a chain > printer, Printronix line printer, and a wet-process "laser" printer from > the early 70's (?) I think it was a Xerox. Just took up too much space. > They are all a part of history; I hope someone out there is holding onto > them. Bieign a hardware collecotr, I colelct things other than just computers, and as I've said before I can find beauty in a printer (or a modem, a terminal, etc) as well as in a processor. I try to colelct machines that are in some way unusual (which actually covers quite a lot of them :-)). Amongst them I have : A few mechancail teleprinters (Creed 7E, Creed 444 [1]. Teletype ASR33) A Versatec V80 electrostatic printer Canocn CX laserpiner (heck, an SX engine, in the form of an Apple Laserwriter, is the main printer here). An HP 7245A thermal printer/plotter. A strange machine, it both prints (using a 712 element printhead) and plots (using one element and moving both the prinhead and paper back and forth). A Centronic printer that seems to move the carriage by havign a contiuously moving belt running acrsos the chassis and solenoids in the carriage that grip eiterh the top or bottom run of the belt to move the carriage in either direction) That Oivetti Sparkjet (JP101) I mentioned a while back HP Thinkjets (I think I have one of every model now). ICL/GE 'Termiprinter' A priting termianl that is actually a belt type line printer inside. And of coruse assorted impact dot matrix printers, daisywheels, spark-onto-alumiium-coated-paper printers, numerical strip printers, etc, etc, etc. [1] I don;t suppsoe anyone knows where to get a reader drive belt for this machine from? As far as I rememebrr it's the same pitch as the mtoro belt in an ASR33, but that one has 44 teeth and the Creed 444 4needs a shorter one (40 teeh? 41 teeth?). -tony From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 8 15:09:27 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2010 13:09:27 -0800 Subject: SCSI on the small and cheap In-Reply-To: References: <4CFE4563.31810.F9356C@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 7, 10 02:32:03 pm, Message-ID: <4CFF8387.15280.D5C74B@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Dec 2010 at 19:52, Tony Duell wrote: > Does that floppy emulator work on _any_ possible floppy controller, or > does it assume a 'normal' FM or MFM one (or perhaps an Apple ][ GCR > one)? No, there are specific versions/settings for Apple II, C64, Atari ST, etc. On the other hand, the memories on MCUs are getting to be pretty huge, so several different versions of the software in one chip shouldn't be an issue. As I said, I have no intention of trying to implement this. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 8 15:04:55 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 21:04:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP 87 Keyboard parts (plungers)... In-Reply-To: from "Clay Archer" at Dec 8, 10 12:57:38 pm Message-ID: > > I recently acquired an HP 87 that I was able to repair, all except for a Nice machine (even if the 80 series are my least favourit HP desktops :-)). I assume you've discovered http://www.hpmusuem.net/ which has a lot of docuemtation (and software I think) for this machine. > few sticking keys. From digging through the archives at this site and > the HP-80 Series sites it seems the only way people have found to fix > these is to cannibalize the plungers from other similar keyboards. Has The good news is that such keyboars were usef by many manuifacturers, not just HP. The bad news is that all of them suffer from the same cracking. Trying to mend the pluger is difficult becaue putting the keycap onwill try to force the pluger apart again. One thing Ihave not tried is to file down the stem of the keycap so that it's a loose fit in the plunger, then repairign the plugner and gluing the keycap to it (with a 'weak' glue so it can be separated again if necessary). The reason I've not tried it, BTW, is that the keycaps are much more machine--specific than the plungers, so I dont;' want to risk damaging them. > anyone figured out a way to repair these cracked key plungers yet? I > have tried a few things like gluing and wrapping and melting, etc, with > little success. Does anyone know a source for these plungers? The HP > part number 1535-4043 still comes up on HP parts site with no stock. I don't think these keybaord spares have been available for some time (and AFAIK nobody is still making them). -tony From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Dec 8 15:10:00 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 19:10:00 -0200 Subject: Original HP Laserjet printer, free in Maryland... References: Message-ID: <4BA2B60CAC554B45B58B635957FDF293@portajara> > I still have the CX-VDO that I built (after much hacking) from a > defective LBP8A1. I have the laser printer interface in my PERQ which > drives this printer (and almsot noting else). Alas CX toner cartridges > are unobtainable now. Try cartridges for the copier CANON PC-1. If you don't find and need some, drop me a mail that I maybe can find some here. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 8 15:19:40 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2010 16:19:40 -0500 Subject: Original HP Laserjet printer, free in Maryland... In-Reply-To: <4BA2B60CAC554B45B58B635957FDF293@portajara> References: <4BA2B60CAC554B45B58B635957FDF293@portajara> Message-ID: <4CFFF66C.1070703@neurotica.com> On 12/8/10 4:10 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I still have the CX-VDO that I built (after much hacking) from a >> defective LBP8A1. I have the laser printer interface in my PERQ which >> drives this printer (and almsot noting else). Alas CX toner cartridges >> are unobtainable now. > > Try cartridges for the copier CANON PC-1. If you don't find and need > some, drop me a mail that I maybe can find some here. I worked on the Canon CX and SX engines for a living for a few years. I remember pretty clearly that the PC-1 copier cartridges are physically identical, but they don't work. The composition of either the drum coating or the toner is different. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Dec 8 15:47:17 2010 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 10:47:17 +1300 Subject: apple Lisa2. One working!! - one to go? References: Message-ID: Tony (and anyone else interested), Here is the symptom on this Lisa 2/10 (or Mac XL as they are also called sometimes). It passes all tests until it gets to the I/O board test. It then fails with an error 57 message (disk controller fault). Reading Lisa 2 documentation suggests this is the Lisa Lite adaptor, but with a Lisa 2/10 there is no such thing. The floppy disk is connected straight to the I/O board. I am not sure if the fault is on the I/O board itself, or somewhere on the Widget hard drive controller? I've found the schematics, but no real "theory of operation" docs for the widget drive itself. The Lisa allows you to click on both the hard drive icon or the floppy drive icon even after the error is posted. Neither work. The hard drive comes up with an error 82 which means "Drive doesn't answer". I can't recall right now what the floppy error is, but it doesn't spin up or eject, even with a DD drive. I suspect the fault is on the I/O board itself as the floppy seems dead even when the hard disk is disconnected. However, I'm not assuming anything. This may be just because the I/O has reported an error, or it's functionality may need the widget drive to be on-line. Some other things... 1. With the widget and floppy drive unplugged, the same error occurs (but this might be because they ARE unplugged). The error also occurs with either one or the other plugged in 2. When I switch on, the widget drive spins up, the drive light flashes and I "think" I can hear the "clack" people write about when the brake is released. It's quite noisy but I believe these drives are. 3. I've cleaned all the card edges. 4. I'm fairly sure I have the right ROMS. The machine reports H/E8. H is correct for the Lisa 2/10. E8 (which refers to the floppy disk routine I think) is not documented anywhere. 88 seems more common. It may be a later revision. 5. The I/O board looks in good external shape with no evidence of corrosion anywhere. 6. I've reseated all socketed ICs I could find, both on the I/O board and the widget drive. I have a scope, logic probe and multimeter. I also have the schematics. I have a website where I can post pictures if needed for diagnostic purposes. I have "some" skills at interpretation but I would still class myself as an "advanced beginner" so any guidence as to where I might start is most welcome. Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 9:19 AM Subject: Re: apple Lisa2. One working!! - one to go? >> Many thanks for your time and input. > > No problem... Diagnosing faults is much more fun that flamewars about > musuems ;-) > >> >> It's now onto the next project, which is a faulty I/O board in a Lisa >> 2/10. >> I want to get that widget drive booting so I can experience the real Lisa >> office suite! > > I've had a quick look at the I/O board schematics on the web. It looks to > be several somewhat independant sectioms, each one (apart from the FDC, > which has its own 6504 microprocessor..) fairly simple. Do you have any > idea where the fault is? > > -tony > From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Dec 8 15:47:48 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 19:47:48 -0200 Subject: Original HP Laserjet printer, free in Maryland... References: <4BA2B60CAC554B45B58B635957FDF293@portajara> <4CFFF66C.1070703@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > I worked on the Canon CX and SX engines for a living for a few years. > I remember pretty clearly that the PC-1 copier cartridges are > physically identical, but they don't work. The composition of either > the drum coating or the toner is different. Strange, they use even the same engine, why woulnd't work? ;oO From lynchaj at yahoo.com Wed Dec 8 16:34:18 2010 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 17:34:18 -0500 Subject: SCSI to IDE/SD community project Message-ID: Hi! I made this offer at Vintage-Computer.com forums and got some response so am also making the same offer on CCTALK. The following link is the design I referring to: http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=SCSI2IDE I am trying to decide what to do with the SCSI to IDE/SD project. I think it would be a good and helpful thing to have but recognize it may be too specific or overcome by events. If you are interested in buying a prototype board please contact me at mailto:LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM?subject=SCSI2IDE If there are 5 people interested I can get a batch of five PCBs made for $150 or $30 each. If there are 10 I think I can get the prototype board cost reduced to around $20 each. Please note if you buy a prototype board you don't have to actually build and test it. You can buy a board and have it sent to a volunteer builder for build and test. If the SCSI2IDE project is to succeed we have to get past the prototype board phase and into the hands of builders for coding. Obviously with prototype boards there are no assurances and you can expect there will be problems. We have to find those and fix them before a manufactured PCB is even a possibility. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Dec 8 16:50:04 2010 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 11:50:04 +1300 Subject: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? References: Message-ID: > I see from your other message that this seems to have been at least part > of the problem. WIthout a Lisa disk, I guess you can't be sure it's > working properelt, but at least it detects and spins up the disk now. > Yes. Although it's great to see this first Lisa at least go through all it's checks and spin/spit disks, my excitement is tempered by the fact it's no guarantee there won't be problems found once the software arrives. The drive actually has to load it for a start. Also, I have misgivings about all three keyboards I have. I couldn't activate the special diagnostic routine the Lisa is suppose to have. Despite the keyboard passing it's POST test then, the jury is still out on whether any of the keys actually work! Anyway, we'll see. One small step at a time... Terry From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Dec 8 16:58:50 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 14:58:50 -0800 Subject: MacOS 7.x problem In-Reply-To: <7bdc128ea9e375247035e7750d40a430@cs.ubc.ca> References: <7bdc128ea9e375247035e7750d40a430@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4a03077bf75cda673c8d7493d29c1e08@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Dec 8, at 12:49 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2010 Dec 8, at 4:11 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> On Mon, 6 Dec 2010, Jason McBrien wrote: >>> On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 12:32 PM, Steven Hirsch >>> wrote: >>>> The MacUser directory is fine - both data and resource forks are as >>>> expected. However, no matter what I've tried 'Diagnostic1' simply >>>> does not >>>> show up in the finder. I'm sure it's something basic, but I'm not >>>> much of >>>> an ancient Mac guru. >>> >>> Wild guess, but might be a custom folder icon that's having it's >>> resource >>> fork blown away? Did you try rebuilding the desktop on the 68k >>> machine? I'm >>> not sure if it's possible, but you might try doing the same on the >>> netatalk >>> share. >> >> Good thought, but there is no icon information in the netatalk >> metadata (it has a dedicated file for desktop info). I believe this >> is something much more basic. > > If I'm following this correctly, a file - which you know exists - is > not showing up in the finder windows or desktop? > > IIRC, there is a HIDDEN attribute for files in the old MacOS, which > can be accessed through something like ResEdit or the Norton > Utilities. > > I'd have to fire up an MacOS 9 machine to check and I'm not sure the > machine I could easily fire up has the utility to double-check the > matter installed. I fired up an old Mac Performa 5300CD / MacOS 8.5 and installed Norton Utilities from floppies (that was a nostalgic novelty: flipping floppy disks from install prompts). There is an "Is Invisible" flag for each file (bit 14 of the Finder Flags), which does exactly what it suggests, and which can be toggled with Norton Disk Editor. I don't know what other means there might be to toggle the flag. I'm not sure this is the nature of the issue you have, so just FWIW ... From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 8 17:07:30 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2010 18:07:30 -0500 Subject: Original HP Laserjet printer, free in Maryland... In-Reply-To: References: <4BA2B60CAC554B45B58B635957FDF293@portajara> <4CFFF66C.1070703@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D000FB2.2040808@neurotica.com> On 12/8/10 4:47 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I worked on the Canon CX and SX engines for a living for a few years. >> I remember pretty clearly that the PC-1 copier cartridges are >> physically identical, but they don't work. The composition of either >> the drum coating or the toner is different. > > Strange, they use even the same engine, why woulnd't work? ;oO They do not use the same engine. They are similar (since they use the same physical cartridge) but the way the operate is very different. The CX laser printer engine uses a laser diode (I don't recall if it is visible or infrared) to scan across the drum, while the PC-1 photocopier uses an incandescent lamp to illuminate a strip across the page as it is scanned. The wavelength and amount of radiant energy involved are completely different. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 8 17:11:25 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2010 15:11:25 -0800 Subject: Tek 4051 firmware listing Message-ID: <4D00109D.6010103@bitsavers.org> from microfiche http://bitsavers.org/pdf/tektronix/405x/fiche/4051_Firmware From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Dec 8 17:51:07 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 21:51:07 -0200 Subject: Original HP Laserjet printer, free in Maryland... References: <4BA2B60CAC554B45B58B635957FDF293@portajara> <4CFFF66C.1070703@neurotica.com> <4D000FB2.2040808@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <940BD79A623848DBA69996B367D60FA8@portajara> > They do not use the same engine. They are similar (since they use the > same physical cartridge) but the way the operate is very different. The > CX laser printer engine uses a laser diode (I don't recall if it is > visible or infrared) to scan across the drum, while the PC-1 photocopier > uses an incandescent lamp to illuminate a strip across the page as it is > scanned. The wavelength and amount of radiant energy involved are > completely different. This is something I didn't though...Thanks for shedding a light on the subject, Dave! From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 8 17:57:39 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2010 18:57:39 -0500 Subject: Original HP Laserjet printer, free in Maryland... In-Reply-To: <940BD79A623848DBA69996B367D60FA8@portajara> References: <4BA2B60CAC554B45B58B635957FDF293@portajara> <4CFFF66C.1070703@neurotica.com> <4D000FB2.2040808@neurotica.com> <940BD79A623848DBA69996B367D60FA8@portajara> Message-ID: <4D001B73.9000603@neurotica.com> On 12/8/10 6:51 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> They do not use the same engine. They are similar (since they use the >> same physical cartridge) but the way the operate is very different. The >> CX laser printer engine uses a laser diode (I don't recall if it is >> visible or infrared) to scan across the drum, while the PC-1 photocopier >> uses an incandescent lamp to illuminate a strip across the page as it is >> scanned. The wavelength and amount of radiant energy involved are >> completely different. > > This is something I didn't though...Thanks for shedding a light on > the subject, Dave! It is my pleasure. I would love to give this old Laserjet a home, and (as I mentioned to you in private mail) I will be in that part of the country for a while starting in a few days. I wonder if it will still be available. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Dec 8 18:26:18 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 16:26:18 -0800 Subject: Calculator simulations In-Reply-To: References: <25622773947bf6603d0c92ca644b3596@cs.ubc.ca> <4CFF0AC3.4030509@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <35f9ec2766a491afd93c0464dd75bed4@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Dec 8, at 6:55 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: > Charlie C. wrote: > >> With the decimal point position set to blank, it did seem to get stuck >> looping in state 31 forever when I divided 1 by 3. It could also be >> that I have no experience whatever with this calculator and this >> behavior is quite normal. :-) I found it curious that the only + >> function is to memory, and I found the M+ and MR operation to not be >> intuitive but that's probably just my ignorance as well. Again, this >> was with the DP position blank; maybe that is just not intended or I >> don't understand it's purpose. > > The blank position of the decimal point setting switch does cause odd > behavior in this class of machines. Why Sharp (who designed the guts > for many Facit calculators of this time) put a rotary switch in with a > position that led to incorrect operation isn't clear. Similar Sharp > machines exhibit the same behavior. > > The really cool thing about Brent's simulations is that they are so > accurate that they properly reproduce this behavior. Brent's > reverse-engineering skills are truly epic. > > To add, the "=" key is used. Enter a number, press "=". It is added > to > the display. For example, to add 16 to 45, enter 16, press "=", enter > 45, press "=", and the answer is in the display. To subtract, just > enter the number to be subtracted, and press the "-" key. For example > to subtract 9 from the result, simply enter 9, then press "-". > > Brent's simulation of the Facit 1123 does add the memory function keys > that don't actually exist on the Facit 1123 model. The circuitry is > all > there for the memory functions, but on the actual machine, the keys > weren't on the keyboard. A different model (that cost more) included > the memory keys. The memory is a separate register that can be added > to > or subtracted from. The M+ and M- keys add or subtract the number in > the display from the memory register. > The CM key clears the memory register, and the MR key brings up the > content of the memory register into the display. Thanks for filling in all that, Rick. I'll just add that in these discrete and SSI-based machines there were lots of boundary and exception conditions which would have required more physical logic, complexity and expense to account for, so the designers frequently didn't do so. (The specifics of the DP switch are that it would have required a couple more NAND gates to provide another DP alignment point to fill the 6th position on the switch .. perhaps a 5-position switch wasn't available. In the 6th 'blank' position, the state machine is looping, looking for a match signal that never comes, as it tries to align the number to the unspecified decimal point position.) A few weeks ago IIRC, Roger Holmes was touching on this issue of building gate-level simulations for diagnosis and repair of complex old machines, in relation to his mainframe. I just have to emphasize again how effective it can be, not necessarily for all classes of problems, but for some/those that are buried deep in the logic. With the schematic in hand, make observations and measurements on the physical target, make your conjectures from those observed symptoms, and then hack around in the simulation to try to get the same symptoms. Iterate as necessary. Lots of fun and can save a lot of hassle and avoid messing up the original hardware. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 8 18:34:14 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 16:34:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Original HP Laserjet printer, free in Maryland... In-Reply-To: References: <4BA2B60CAC554B45B58B635957FDF293@portajara> <4CFFF66C.1070703@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20101208162213.R96781@shell.lmi.net> > > I worked on the Canon CX and SX engines for a living for a few years. > > I remember pretty clearly that the PC-1 copier cartridges are > > physically identical, but they don't work. The composition of either > > the drum coating or the toner is different. On Wed, 8 Dec 2010, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > Strange, they use even the same engine, why woulnd't work? ;oO Not quite. I do not know the specific differences, but, I do know that if you put CX toner in a PC10 copier cartridge, you get a white on black image, but not a clean one - it vaguely resembles solarized photos. CX also makes vaguely round dots "inscribed" in a rectangular grid, that do not overlap [much]. You can not get a really good black. On the SX, which is a engine that is much different from the CX and PC ones, the dots are larger, and overlap, so you can get a much richer black. From evan at snarc.net Wed Dec 8 21:59:37 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2010 22:59:37 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Haul in York PA In-Reply-To: <4CFD85F7.6000509@snarc.net> References: <4CFD85F7.6000509@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4D005429.6020405@snarc.net> > >> I was contacted many months ago by folks in York PA about a large >> TRS-80 Model II collection they need to get rid of. > > ... That fact that it * wasn't * all handled by last month is entirely > my fault. I'm trying again to have some local MARCH members get it done. Update -- we're picking it up this Friday morning -- big thanks to Mike Loewen. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 8 23:37:46 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2010 21:37:46 -0800 Subject: 1970s TTL specs and prices In-Reply-To: <57313DAA05B241C09A0CF79DE4906A83@tegp4> References: <57313DAA05B241C09A0CF79DE4906A83@tegp4> Message-ID: <4D006B2A.5090407@bitsavers.org> On 8/20/10 11:23 AM, Tom Gardner wrote: > For some Computer History Museum work I need information on 7400 series Flip > Flops (S and Normal, DIPs) circa 1973 (anything 1970-75). Anyone have any > maximum clock speed and OEM volume pricing information on parts such as 7473 > thru 79 or 74106-116? > At introduction (May 1966) The 7474 (25Mhz toggle freq) was $11.40, $9.10, $7.70 quantity 1/25/100, respectively The most expensive TI TTL part at that time was the 7491 9 bit shift register at $31.25, $24.85, $21.25 Their most expensive IC was the linear SN354A Demodulator/Chopper at $145, $116, $99 From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Wed Dec 8 14:56:45 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2010 14:56:45 -0600 Subject: Calculator simulations In-Reply-To: References: <25622773947bf6603d0c92ca644b3596@cs.ubc.ca> <4CFF0AC3.4030509@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4CFFF10D.1050003@tx.rr.com> On 12/8/2010 8:55 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: > Charlie C. wrote: > >> With the decimal point position set to blank, it did seem to get stuck >> looping in state 31 forever when I divided 1 by 3. It could also be >> that I have no experience whatever with this calculator and this >> behavior is quite normal. :-) I found it curious that the only + >> function is to memory, and I found the M+ and MR operation to not be >> intuitive but that's probably just my ignorance as well. Again, this >> was with the DP position blank; maybe that is just not intended or I >> don't understand it's purpose. >> > > The blank position of the decimal point setting switch does cause odd > behavior in this class of machines. Why Sharp (who designed the guts > for many Facit calculators of this time) put a rotary switch in with a > position that led to incorrect operation isn't clear. Similar Sharp > machines exhibit the same behavior. > > The really cool thing about Brent's simulations is that they are so > accurate that they properly reproduce this behavior. Brent's > reverse-engineering skills are truly epic. > > To add, the "=" key is used. Enter a number, press "=". It is added to > the display. For example, to add 16 to 45, enter 16, press "=", enter > 45, press "=", and the answer is in the display. To subtract, just > enter the number to be subtracted, and press the "-" key. For example > to subtract 9 from the result, simply enter 9, then press "-". > > Brent's simulation of the Facit 1123 does add the memory function keys > that don't actually exist on the Facit 1123 model. The circuitry is all > there for the memory functions, but on the actual machine, the keys > weren't on the keyboard. A different model (that cost more) included > the memory keys. The memory is a separate register that can be added to > or subtracted from. The M+ and M- keys add or subtract the number in > the display from the memory register. > The CM key clears the memory register, and the MR key brings up the > content of the memory register into the display. > > Rick Bensene > The Old Calculator Museum > http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > Hi Rick, Thanks much for the explanation. I notice that the Toshiba BC-1212 has one key labeled with both + and = so I'm guessing this was pretty common in that time frame. The CM, M+ and M- do seem very intuitive to me as long as the DP switch is not set to blank. BTW, my bad on Firefox, as I had failed to restart it after downloading and installing Shockwave. After a restart the simulation works just fine with Firefox. Later, Charlie C. From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Dec 8 18:40:16 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 19:40:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: MacOS 7.x problem In-Reply-To: <7bdc128ea9e375247035e7750d40a430@cs.ubc.ca> References: <7bdc128ea9e375247035e7750d40a430@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Dec 2010, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2010 Dec 8, at 4:11 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> On Mon, 6 Dec 2010, Jason McBrien wrote: >>> On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 12:32 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: >>>> The MacUser directory is fine - both data and resource forks are as >>>> expected. However, no matter what I've tried 'Diagnostic1' simply does >>>> not >>>> show up in the finder. I'm sure it's something basic, but I'm not much >>>> of >>>> an ancient Mac guru. >>> >>> Wild guess, but might be a custom folder icon that's having it's resource >>> fork blown away? Did you try rebuilding the desktop on the 68k machine? >>> I'm >>> not sure if it's possible, but you might try doing the same on the >>> netatalk >>> share. >> >> Good thought, but there is no icon information in the netatalk metadata (it >> has a dedicated file for desktop info). I believe this is something much >> more basic. > > If I'm following this correctly, a file - which you know exists - is not > showing up in the finder windows or desktop? More accurately, it's a _folder_ (directory) that fails to show up. > IIRC, there is a HIDDEN attribute for files in the old MacOS, which can be > accessed through something like ResEdit or the Norton Utilities. I suspected that, but am not really a Mac guru. Any pointers to such a utility would be appreciated! For laughs, I created a new directory from the mac, then used netatalk utils to copy the "invisible" files into that location (they can't hide from Linux). The new directory and its contents are quite visible to the mac. > I'd have to fire up an MacOS 9 machine to check and I'm not sure the machine > I could easily fire up has the utility to double-check the matter installed. > > Aren't there some MacExperts here? What he said :-) Steve -- From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Dec 9 04:06:09 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 11:06:09 +0100 (CET) Subject: Fixing small plastic... things In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Dec 2010, Tony Duell wrote: >> No, I haven't. The objective is to make a precise gate-level simulation >> of the calculator, both for understanding and which can be used to >> track down faults in a broken instance of the real thing. Patents >> generally don't provide the level of accuracy for that objective, so it >> generally doesn't occur to me to look to patents for these purposes. > > As n aside, some of the HP desktop calcualtor patents are very detailed, > and include sechematics, commented firmware source, extension ROM > sources, and so on. But as you imply, there are often suble differences > between the machien described i nthe patent and the actual prodcution > model. I regard these patents as a very useful resource and well worth > reading, but you need to check against an actual machine. Sure, but the patents help identify signal names and understand the priciples of the machine. You can't easilly find out how a machine works by just looking at the flip-flop or some random logic. We had to repair some Friden 132 boards just a few weeks ago, the block diagrams and descriptions in the patents were quite helpful. Christian From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Dec 9 07:26:26 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 07:26:26 -0600 Subject: Fwd: [GreenKeys] ATLANTIC RESEARCH DATA TECH DTS-1-M470/483 Message-ID: <201012091326.oB9DQYQs065351@billY.EZWIND.NET> Forwarded from the Greenkeys list. Looks like an interesting piece of test gear: http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370462778137 - John From: "George B. Hutchison" To: "Don Robert House" , References: <4D001215.31954.3F92DD3 at dhunter.islandregister.com> <77B62C3F-03B0-47FD-8BC6-BFC1BF51B8DA at gmail.com> Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 22:14:21 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-osmtp-outbound-sender: w7tty at olypen.com X-osmtp-host: 65.243.191.51 X-osmtp-virus: clean Cc: greenkeys at mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [GreenKeys] ATLANTIC RESEARCH DATA TECH DTS-1-M470/483 X-BeenThere: greenkeys at mailman.qth.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of older radio teletype \(RTTY\) gear " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: greenkeys-bounces at mailman.qth.net Errors-To: greenkeys-bounces at mailman.qth.net X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 X-Spam-Score: -25 X-Spam-Bar: -- X-Spam-Flag: NO That unit was one of the standard pieces of test equipment issued to all RCA Service Company Data Comm Techs. When RCA succumbed to GE, a lot of them just disappeared. I still have mine and it still works like a champ. If the manual didn't come with that one let me know and I'll haul my manual down to UPS and have it scanned into a .pdf. You can either use it as a loop keyer, or, if you need loop power, it will provide that as well. You can send distorted signals up to 44 per cent switched bias, and can measure incoming bias and distortion as well. I never left home without mine. There is a built-in FOX generator that will do baudot, ASCII, Teletypesetter, and EBCDIC. And you got a very good deal. A friend of mine traded a new, unfired .45 ACP Match Grade pistol for one, and both parties thought they got the better end of the deal. The Beer Cooler Accessory was extra, but otherwise they were a repairman's dream. W7TTY From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Thu Dec 9 13:24:55 2010 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 11:24:55 -0800 Subject: 1970s TTL specs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Subject: Re: 1970s TTL specs and prices > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <4D006B2A.5090407 at bitsavers.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 8/20/10 11:23 AM, Tom Gardner wrote: > > For some Computer History Museum work I need information on 7400 series > Flip > > Flops (S and Normal, DIPs) circa 1973 (anything 1970-75). Anyone have > any > > maximum clock speed and OEM volume pricing information on parts such as > 7473 > > thru 79 or 74106-116? > > > > At introduction (May 1966) The 7474 (25Mhz toggle freq) was $11.40, $9.10, > $7.70 > quantity 1/25/100, respectively > > The most expensive TI TTL part at that time was the 7491 9 bit shift > register at > $31.25, $24.85, $21.25 > > Their most expensive IC was the linear SN354A Demodulator/Chopper at > $145, $116, $99 > ------------------------------ There is a fairly complete set of IC Masters at the UC's Northern Reference Library Facility, Richmond CA, http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/NRLF/. They have a public reading room and will pre-pull material per an email request, nrlfreq at library.berkeley.edu. As it turns out I will be there next week doing some research on DRAM using all the IC Masters and can see what is in the 1973 version about various TTL. FWIW, I frequently use a learning (pricing) curve off a per 100 price to get a reasonable estimate of the high volume OEM price. You will have to justify the learning percentage (2% to 10%) and the OEM volume (multiple of annual volume of a high volume system?) to come up with a price. For example using the 1966 7474 at $7.70 with a 5% learning curve and a 100,000 OEM volume has an estimated OEM price of $4.60. You will have to do some research and thinking to come up with the values u use. Tom From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Dec 9 14:12:34 2010 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 09:12:34 +1300 Subject: apple Lisa2. One working!! - one to go? References: Message-ID: <3D2494D912A94D36A4DC08A2A300C420@massey.ac.nz> Progress report.: Last night I swapped out the 6540A controller chip on the I/O board with a known good one but no change. I then disconnected the hard drive (to reduce the amount of times it had to spin up and spin down while testing) and checked a few of the 74xxxx chips associated with the floppy disk controller on the I/O board to ascertain the logic was ok. Its a long shot I know but at least with a scope and datasheets, at least I can eliminate them as a source of the problem (and understand what I'm doing, unlike trying to interpret some of the data and address lines). These were: LS132 (U6A) - ok LS 02 (U8A) - ok LS 109 (U6B) - ok LS139 (U5A) -ok LS139 was very hot to the touch which caused a brief flurry of excitement. It completely checks out as far as the logic is concerned though. A lot of the pins have 5v runing through them which is maybe why they are so hot. There are a few more logic chips to check out which I'll do tonight or on the weekend. The ROM is actually H/EA not H/E8. Either way, I can't find reports of this ROM anywhere. The ROM normally reported for this type of machine is H/88. The investigation continues.... Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Stewart" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 10:47 AM Subject: Re: apple Lisa2. One working!! - one to go? > Tony (and anyone else interested), > > Here is the symptom on this Lisa 2/10 (or Mac XL as they are also called > sometimes). > > It passes all tests until it gets to the I/O board test. It then fails > with an error 57 message (disk controller fault). Reading Lisa 2 > documentation suggests this is the Lisa Lite adaptor, but with a Lisa 2/10 > there is no such thing. The floppy disk is connected straight to the I/O > board. I am not sure if the fault is on the I/O board itself, or > somewhere on the Widget hard drive controller? I've found the > schematics, but no real "theory of operation" docs for the widget drive > itself. > > The Lisa allows you to click on both the hard drive icon or the floppy > drive icon even after the error is posted. Neither work. The hard drive > comes up with an error 82 which means "Drive doesn't answer". I can't > recall right now what the floppy error is, but it doesn't spin up or > eject, even with a DD drive. > > I suspect the fault is on the I/O board itself as the floppy seems dead > even when the hard disk is disconnected. However, I'm not assuming > anything. This may be just because the I/O has reported an error, or it's > functionality may need the widget drive to be on-line. > > Some other things... > > 1. With the widget and floppy drive unplugged, the same error occurs (but > this might be because they ARE unplugged). The error also occurs with > either one or the other plugged in > > 2. When I switch on, the widget drive spins up, the drive light flashes > and I "think" I can hear the "clack" people write about when the brake is > released. It's quite noisy but I believe these drives are. > > 3. I've cleaned all the card edges. > > 4. I'm fairly sure I have the right ROMS. The machine reports H/E8. H is > correct for the Lisa 2/10. E8 (which refers to the floppy disk routine I > think) is not documented anywhere. 88 seems more common. It may be a > later revision. > > 5. The I/O board looks in good external shape with no evidence of > corrosion anywhere. > > 6. I've reseated all socketed ICs I could find, both on the I/O board and > the widget drive. > > I have a scope, logic probe and multimeter. I also have the schematics. I > have a website where I can post pictures if needed for diagnostic > purposes. I have "some" skills at interpretation but I would still class > myself as an "advanced beginner" so any guidence as to where I might start > is most welcome. > > Terry > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tony Duell" > To: > Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 9:19 AM > Subject: Re: apple Lisa2. One working!! - one to go? > > >>> Many thanks for your time and input. >> >> No problem... Diagnosing faults is much more fun that flamewars about >> musuems ;-) >> >>> >>> It's now onto the next project, which is a faulty I/O board in a Lisa >>> 2/10. >>> I want to get that widget drive booting so I can experience the real >>> Lisa >>> office suite! >> >> I've had a quick look at the I/O board schematics on the web. It looks to >> be several somewhat independant sectioms, each one (apart from the FDC, >> which has its own 6504 microprocessor..) fairly simple. Do you have any >> idea where the fault is? >> >> -tony >> > > > From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Dec 9 14:14:57 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 18:14:57 -0200 Subject: SCSI sector size References: Message-ID: <9507677033BA43EBBDD010E9CB23DDE8@portajara> Sirs, I have some old systems (sun, SGI, commodore, etc) and some new systems (PC, whatever). For all those systems I have few SCSI drivers. Should I include on external SCSI boxes with CD-ROMs and DVD-ROMs a switch for changing the SCSI sector size or can I keep everything on 512 bytes which seems to be the more common? --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Dec 9 06:17:35 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 07:17:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: MacOS 7.x problem In-Reply-To: <4a03077bf75cda673c8d7493d29c1e08@cs.ubc.ca> References: <7bdc128ea9e375247035e7750d40a430@cs.ubc.ca> <4a03077bf75cda673c8d7493d29c1e08@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Dec 2010, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2010 Dec 8, at 12:49 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> On 2010 Dec 8, at 4:11 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: >>> On Mon, 6 Dec 2010, Jason McBrien wrote: >>>> On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 12:32 PM, Steven Hirsch >>>> wrote: >>>>> The MacUser directory is fine - both data and resource forks are as >>>>> expected. However, no matter what I've tried 'Diagnostic1' simply does >>>>> not >>>>> show up in the finder. I'm sure it's something basic, but I'm not much >>>>> of >>>>> an ancient Mac guru. >>>> >>>> Wild guess, but might be a custom folder icon that's having it's resource >>>> fork blown away? Did you try rebuilding the desktop on the 68k machine? >>>> I'm >>>> not sure if it's possible, but you might try doing the same on the >>>> netatalk >>>> share. >>> >>> Good thought, but there is no icon information in the netatalk metadata >>> (it has a dedicated file for desktop info). I believe this is something >>> much more basic. >> >> If I'm following this correctly, a file - which you know exists - is not >> showing up in the finder windows or desktop? >> >> IIRC, there is a HIDDEN attribute for files in the old MacOS, which can be >> accessed through something like ResEdit or the Norton Utilities. >> >> I'd have to fire up an MacOS 9 machine to check and I'm not sure the >> machine I could easily fire up has the utility to double-check the matter >> installed. > > I fired up an old Mac Performa 5300CD / MacOS 8.5 and installed Norton > Utilities from floppies (that was a nostalgic novelty: flipping floppy disks > from install prompts). > > There is an "Is Invisible" flag for each file (bit 14 of the Finder Flags), > which does exactly what it suggests, and which can be toggled with Norton > Disk Editor. I don't know what other means there might be to toggle the flag. > I'm not sure this is the nature of the issue you have, so just FWIW ... I don't have Norton Utilities, but was able to lay my hands on a shareware version of "Snitch" that supports a similar function. After a bit of fumbling around (the author spent about 10x the effort on annoying pop-ups requesting payment than he did on actually documenting how to use the )(*^()*&^% thing) I was able to find and flip off the invisible bit. I found the tool so annoying that I think I'll go after a copy of Norton before considering a shareware payment. Life is good now, at any rate. Steve -- From fryers at gmail.com Thu Dec 9 16:00:04 2010 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 09:00:04 +1100 Subject: SCSI sector size In-Reply-To: <9507677033BA43EBBDD010E9CB23DDE8@portajara> References: <9507677033BA43EBBDD010E9CB23DDE8@portajara> Message-ID: Hi, On 10/12/2010, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > Sirs, > > I have some old systems (sun, SGI, commodore, etc) and some new systems > (PC, whatever). For all those systems I have few SCSI drivers. Should I > include on external SCSI boxes with CD-ROMs and DVD-ROMs a switch for > changing the SCSI sector size or can I keep everything on 512 bytes which > seems to be the more common? Personally, I add switches just in case. It is good insurance so that you will never need to use it! :) Following on from this I expect the usual discussion about 512 / 2048 byte blocks, the actual format of the CD / DVD and where the 2048 <-> 512 byte conversion is done. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 9 15:24:41 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 21:24:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Calculator simulations In-Reply-To: <4CFFF10D.1050003@tx.rr.com> from "Charlie Carothers" at Dec 8, 10 02:56:45 pm Message-ID: > Thanks much for the explanation. I notice that the Toshiba BC-1212 has > one key labeled with both + and = so I'm guessing this was pretty common > in that time frame. A number of machines had keys labelled '+=' amd '-=' or something simialr. Addition and subtraction were effectively RPN : 2 + 3 = -> 2 += 3+= 7-5 = -> 7 += 5 -= Multipliciation and division used normal infix notion with the '+=' key being used for the 'equals'. The Casio AL1000 (Commodore AL1000 in the States I think) and I believe the AL2000 had something slghtly weirder. They used the += and -= as above for addition and subtraction. Multiplication were infix, using += to give all digits of the product/quotient and -= to round it to the number of digits set on the decimal places thumbwheel. There was also a swtich for 5/4 rounding or truncation. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 9 15:30:09 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 21:30:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Original HP Laserjet printer, free in Maryland... In-Reply-To: <4BA2B60CAC554B45B58B635957FDF293@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Dec 8, 10 07:10:00 pm Message-ID: > > > I still have the CX-VDO that I built (after much hacking) from a > > defective LBP8A1. I have the laser printer interface in my PERQ which > > drives this printer (and almsot noting else). Alas CX toner cartridges > > are unobtainable now. > > Try cartridges for the copier CANON PC-1. If you don't find and need > some, drop me a mail that I maybe can find some here. I was under the impression (due to somebody who I fixed a PC-1 for and who also had a CX-engined printer) that the cartridges were different. While they will mechancially interchange, they don't work in the 'wrong' machine. Photocopiers and laser printers, while similar on concept differ a lot in the details. There are 2 very obvious differences that might matter here. Firstly, the laser printer uses an IR laser beam to put an image o nthe drum, tbe photocopier uses visible light reflected from the original. I could well believe that the drum coatings are different as a result. Secondly, all photocopiers (for obvious reasons) are 'write for white'. That is, the toner stickes to the unexposed parts of the drum -- the bits that were black in the original (so no reflected light) and which ened to be black in the copy. Many laser printers (including the CX) are 'write for black' -- the toner sticks to the exposed parts of the drum, where the laser beam has been. This certainly means different polariities of soem of the EHT corona wires, it may also mean a differnet toner compostion. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 9 15:40:40 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 21:40:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: apple Lisa2. One working!! - one to go? In-Reply-To: from "Terry Stewart" at Dec 9, 10 10:47:17 am Message-ID: > > Tony (and anyone else interested), I am seriosuly wondering why I am the only person responding to this, given that I've never seen a Lisa 'in the flesh' and have certainly never been inside one. But I don't mind helping... > > Here is the symptom on this Lisa 2/10 (or Mac XL as they are also called > sometimes). > > It passes all tests until it gets to the I/O board test. It then fails with > an error 57 message (disk controller fault). Reading Lisa 2 documentation It would be very useful to know if this is a floppy controller error or a hard idsk cotnroller error. Should a Lisa 2/10 be able to boot from the floppy drive if there's no hard drive connected? If so, it would be worth trying to get that working first. > suggests this is the Lisa Lite adaptor, but with a Lisa 2/10 there is no > such thing. The floppy disk is connected straight to the I/O board. I am > not sure if the fault is on the I/O board itself, or somewhere on the Widget > hard drive controller? I've found the schematics, but no real "theory of > operation" docs for the widget drive itself. > > The Lisa allows you to click on both the hard drive icon or the floppy drive > icon even after the error is posted. Neither work. The hard drive comes up > with an error 82 which means "Drive doesn't answer". I can't recall right OK, I assume the Widget is spinning, etc. I will take a look at the schematics for the I/O board and the Widget. I wonder if it's posssible to easily see if the machine is even trying to access the drive. > now what the floppy error is, but it doesn't spin up or eject, even with a > DD drive. Right. This is a Sony 400K drive, as in the other Lisa, right? To eliminate the silly faults, I would at least check the power at the drive connector, and also see what the various signals are doing. > > I suspect the fault is on the I/O board itself as the floppy seems dead even > when the hard disk is disconnected. However, I'm not assuming anything. I wonder if there's some common circuit (address decoder, buffers, I/O chip) that's common to both disk controllers. I will have a look. > This may be just because the I/O has reported an error, or it's > functionality may need the widget drive to be on-line. > > Some other things... > > 1. With the widget and floppy drive unplugged, the same error occurs (but > this might be because they ARE unplugged). The error also occurs with > either one or the other plugged in On the other hand it may mean the system is not looking for either of them for some reason, and therefore doesn;t notice they are not connected. > > 2. When I switch on, the widget drive spins up, the drive light flashes and > I "think" I can hear the "clack" people write about when the brake is > released. It's quite noisy but I believe these drives are. > > 3. I've cleaned all the card edges. > > 4. I'm fairly sure I have the right ROMS. The machine reports H/E8. H is > correct for the Lisa 2/10. E8 (which refers to the floppy disk routine I > think) is not documented anywhere. 88 seems more common. It may be a later > revision. > > 5. The I/O board looks in good external shape with no evidence of corrosion > anywhere. > > 6. I've reseated all socketed ICs I could find, both on the I/O board and > the widget drive. > > I have a scope, logic probe and multimeter. I also have the schematics. I > have a website where I can post pictures if needed for diagnostic purposes. > I have "some" skills at interpretation but I would still class myself as an > "advanced beginner" so any guidence as to where I might start is most > welcome. A few very quick checks (I hope). 1) Check the power supplies at the floppy drive. Unlikely to be the problem, but let's eliminate it. 2) Check the logic signals the floppy drive interface connector. Is there any activity (changing signals) here? Anything chenge when you put a disk in? 3) What abotu the Widget interface conenctoe? I will see what the signals should be there... 4) The floppy coitnroller has its own 6504 microprocessor I believe. Can you see activity (changing signals) on the address and data bus of this processor? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 9 16:13:04 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 22:13:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Fwd: [GreenKeys] ATLANTIC RESEARCH DATA TECH DTS-1-M470/483 In-Reply-To: <201012091326.oB9DQYQs065351@billY.EZWIND.NET> from "John Foust" at Dec 9, 10 07:26:26 am Message-ID: > > > Forwarded from the Greenkeys list. > > Looks like an interesting piece of test gear: > > http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370462778137 [...] > You can either use it as a loop keyer, or, if you need loop power, it will > provide that as well. > > You can send distorted signals up to 44 per cent switched bias, and can > measure incoming bias and distortion as well. I still have (and use) a TDMS5 made by ATE (part of Plessey I beleive). This is a somewaht simialr thing that wil lsend the Quick Brown Fox message (albeint in Baudot only), or a repeated character (set of toggle switches) with cotnrollable distortion. It'll also display distortion on the incoming signal, test relays for bais and transit time, etc. Alas I don't have the companion TDMS6 which is a receiver only, but does rrater more tests on the incoming signal Oh, and it is entirely valved (maybe with semiconsductor diodes, but none of those new-fangled transistors!) [1]. Yes I ahve the manual includign schematics and parts lists. [1][ In case you'rewondering, the Quick Brown Fox messge is stored on a rtoating disk with sping contacts to read off the 5-bit characters. There's an exploded view of the mechanism with set-up instruction in the manaul. I also have a much later test signal geneator (only, no receive fuctions at all) made by Trend. I really mustget that going sometime.. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 9 15:46:04 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 21:46:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? In-Reply-To: from "Terry Stewart" at Dec 9, 10 11:50:04 am Message-ID: > routine the Lisa is suppose to have. Despite the keyboard passing it's POST > test then, the jury is still out on whether any of the keys actually work! I think this thing uses the well-known Keytonics cpacitive keyboard.The foam pads under the keys can fail with age (resultign in non-working keys), also the metalising on the back of the lower plasic disk can vanish (!). One of the lisa manuals implies that the keyboard has 3 conenctiosn back to the main unit : +5V, ground, signal. I have no idea if the signal line is bidirecitoanl or not, I susepct it isn't. In any case, if you put a logic probe on the signal line, what is it doing? Does it do anything if you press a key? These keybaords will come apart. After removing the outer casing, flip the keyboard over and take out all the small screws that hold the PCB to the keyframe. Then lift off the PCB. You cna now inspect the foam, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 9 16:00:12 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 22:00:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Fixing small plastic... things In-Reply-To: from "Christian Corti" at Dec 9, 10 11:06:09 am Message-ID: > > On Wed, 8 Dec 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > >> No, I haven't. The objective is to make a precise gate-level simulation > >> of the calculator, both for understanding and which can be used to > >> track down faults in a broken instance of the real thing. Patents > >> generally don't provide the level of accuracy for that objective, so it > >> generally doesn't occur to me to look to patents for these purposes. > > > > As n aside, some of the HP desktop calcualtor patents are very detailed, > > and include sechematics, commented firmware source, extension ROM > > sources, and so on. But as you imply, there are often suble differences > > between the machien described i nthe patent and the actual prodcution > > model. I regard these patents as a very useful resource and well worth > > reading, but you need to check against an actual machine. > > Sure, but the patents help identify signal names and understand the > priciples of the machine. You can't easilly find out how a machine works > by just looking at the flip-flop or some random logic. We had to repair Well, maybe some people can't, but there are plenty who can :-). More seriously, this is really what reverse-engineering is about, not just tracing out the schematic, but understanding what it is saying. > some Friden 132 boards just a few weeks ago, the block diagrams and > descriptions in the patents were quite helpful. I think we're saying the same things. Certainly for the HP machines (which I am more familiar with), the patents are very useful. They will help you understnad what is going on in the real machine. However, if you attmept to repari a prodcution machine using the patent as a 'service manual' with no more thought then you will run into problems. The machien in the patent and the actuall machine are not quite the same. If you use the patent intellegently, examine the actuall hardware and see how it relates to the descriptions and diagrams in the patent then you'll sort it out. -tony From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Thu Dec 9 16:40:38 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 09:40:38 +1100 Subject: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 8:46 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > I think this thing uses the well-known Keytonics cpacitive keyboard.The > foam pads under the keys can fail with age (resultign in non-working > keys), also the metalising on the back of the lower plasic disk can > vanish (!). Patrick Sch?fer has suggested a different material for repair of Lisa keyboards, the metal-foil-like wrapping from a crisps/chips/fries pack. I have not tried this yet but I am collecting the packaging. Patrick also describes a handy Lisa keyboard tester. http://john.ccac.rwth-aachen.de:8000/patrick/KBDtester.htm From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 9 16:46:39 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 15:46:39 -0700 Subject: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <4D00109D.6010103@bitsavers.org> References: <4D00109D.6010103@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4D00109D.6010103 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > from microfiche > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/tektronix/405x/fiche/4051_Firmware Is anyone working on transcribing the firmware listing into source files? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Dec 9 16:58:32 2010 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 11:58:32 +1300 Subject: apple Lisa2. One working!! - one to go? References: Message-ID: > It would be very useful to know if this is a floppy controller error or a > hard idsk cotnroller error. Yes, I'd like to know that myself! > Should a Lisa 2/10 be able to boot from the floppy drive if there's no > hard drive connected? If so, it would be worth trying to get that working > first. I don't know but I'm assuming it can. I'm progressing on that basis anyway. > OK, I assume the Widget is spinning, etc. Yes, it is. > I will take a look at the schematics for the I/O board and the Widget. I > wonder if it's posssible to easily see if the machine is even trying to > access the drive. > Right. This is a Sony 400K drive, as in the other Lisa, right? To > eliminate the silly faults, I would at least check the power at the drive > connector, and also see what the various signals are doing. Good idea. > On the other hand it may mean the system is not looking for either of > them for some reason, and therefore doesn;t notice they are not connected. True. > A few very quick checks (I hope). > 1) Check the power supplies at the floppy drive. Unlikely to be the > problem, but let's eliminate it. Yes, I'll check this. > 2) Check the logic signals the floppy drive interface connector. Is there > any activity (changing signals) here? Anything chenge when you put a disk > in? Nope the drive is dead. And this time even with DD disks! Lights are on inside it though so it might be getting power. The drive's been cleaned/relubed and the platter turns. It would be worth me checking out the signals on the card edge though and comparing them to the working machine. > 4) The floppy coitnroller has its own 6504 microprocessor I believe. Can > you see activity (changing signals) on the address and data bus of this > processor? I swapped out with a known good one, and it didn't make any difference. I appreciate these comments and help Tony. Anyone else, please feel free to chip in. Terry From evan at snarc.net Thu Dec 9 18:22:18 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 19:22:18 -0500 Subject: Wow! Lego Antikythera device -- and it works Message-ID: <4D0172BA.8040003@snarc.net> http://therawfeed.com/apple-engineer-re-creates-2000-year-old-greek From bdwheele at indiana.edu Thu Dec 9 19:51:27 2010 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 20:51:27 -0500 Subject: Wow! Lego Antikythera device -- and it works In-Reply-To: <4D0172BA.8040003@snarc.net> References: <4D0172BA.8040003@snarc.net> Message-ID: <1291945888.15654.1.camel@bender> On Thu, 2010-12-09 at 19:22 -0500, Evan Koblentz wrote: > http://therawfeed.com/apple-engineer-re-creates-2000-year-old-greek That is astounding. From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Dec 9 21:25:47 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 22:25:47 -0500 Subject: Onyx C-8000??? In-Reply-To: <7F2B1317-6B1F-4326-AEE3-F5E5DBBE2812@xlisper.com> References: <9FCDBAAD1C4543969D12CFF6EFC78C24@vl420mt> <4CFE6D54.6050702@atarimuseum.com> <4CFEF98F.7070004@bitsavers.org> <4CFEFC03.7060002@atarimuseum.com> <7F2B1317-6B1F-4326-AEE3-F5E5DBBE2812@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <4D019DBB.30200@atarimuseum.com> Really? He interested in parting with one? Does you have the Onix disks? Curt David Betz wrote: > On Dec 7, 2010, at 10:31 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > >> Excellent! Thanks Al... >> >> So, which is correct, did they run Oasis-8, CP/M and or Xenix or Unix ?!?!? I can't really nail down precisely the OS they were using. >> > > I have a friend whose company worked with Onyx C800x systems when they were current. He said that they ran a flavor of Unix that was ported by Onyx themselves called Onix. He still has a couple of machines but hasn't powered them up in years. > From lproven at gmail.com Thu Dec 9 21:35:42 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 03:35:42 +0000 Subject: Wow! Lego Antikythera device -- and it works In-Reply-To: <4D0172BA.8040003@snarc.net> References: <4D0172BA.8040003@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 12:22 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > http://therawfeed.com/apple-engineer-re-creates-2000-year-old-greek Stunning. I actually suggested this to a very skilled AFOL mate of mine at an event in Wexford, SE Ireland, a week ago. I was his (very junior & unskilled) helper, constructing an exhibit of Lego Star Wars models, including a scale diorama of Hoth, complete with /walking/ AT-ATs... :?) -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu Dec 9 21:52:35 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 19:52:35 -0800 Subject: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: References: <4D00109D.6010103@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4D01A403.5020301@mail.msu.edu> On 12/9/2010 2:46 PM, Richard wrote: > In article<4D00109D.6010103 at bitsavers.org>, > Al Kossow writes: > >> from microfiche >> >> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/tektronix/405x/fiche/4051_Firmware > Is anyone working on transcribing the firmware listing into source > files? I was considering it, but it's about 950 pages which makes it a rather daunting task. Is there any OCR software that can deal with this sort of thing? This is potentially made more complicated by the fact that there are horizontal lines across most of the pages, which in many cases intersect with the text (which also isn't the clearest text I've ever seen). But I haven't done anything with OCR software in over a decade, so maybe the technology is up to the challenge? Josh From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Dec 9 22:08:31 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 20:08:31 -0800 Subject: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <4D01A403.5020301@mail.msu.edu> References: <4D00109D.6010103@bitsavers.org> <4D01A403.5020301@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4D01A7BF.5000507@bitsavers.org> On 12/9/10 7:52 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > so maybe the technology is up to the challenge? > nope. I tried to OCR it before uploading the resolution and the horizontal lines ruin it it might make sense to try to use it to commment a disassembly From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Dec 9 22:13:01 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 02:13:01 -0200 Subject: Tek 4051 firmware listing References: <4D00109D.6010103@bitsavers.org> <4D01A403.5020301@mail.msu.edu> <4D01A7BF.5000507@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <7B30FE28515F46CAAC24F6558E167E54@portajara> > nope. I tried to OCR it before uploading > the resolution and the horizontal lines ruin it Even with adobe acrobat pro X? It made things incredible here with my docs and the clearscan option... From trag at io.com Thu Dec 9 22:23:23 2010 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 22:23:23 -0600 Subject: FFS: HP Memory Board D4262-60009 for LX Pro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Anyone have a use for this? It is a memory expansion board of some kind from a Netserver LX PRO. It has sixteen 72 pin SIMM slots. Not populated. HP D4262-60009 Free for cost of shipping from 78759 Jeff Walther From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Dec 9 23:12:25 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 21:12:25 -0800 Subject: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <4D01A403.5020301@mail.msu.edu> References: <4D00109D.6010103@bitsavers.org> <4D01A403.5020301@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4D01B6B9.5060405@brouhaha.com> Josh Dersch wrote: > I was considering it, but it's about 950 pages which makes it a rather daunting task. I typed in around that many pages of listings on two different occasions, once for the HP-41C mainframe ROM source code, and once for HP 2000C Time-Shared BASIC. Each project took a few weeks of spare time. However, I don't have spare time any more, so I'm not likely to do this for the Tek listings. > Is there any OCR software that can deal with this sort of thing? This is > potentially made more complicated by the fact that there are horizontal > lines across most of the pages, which in many cases intersect with the text > (which also isn't the clearest text I've ever seen). The aforementioned source code listings were in better shape than this Tek listing, and didn't have horizontal lines, but I couldn't find any OCR package that could handle them. It would have taken far longer to clean up the OCR output than it took me to type it in myself. OCR is designed for business letters, not code listings. What I did in each case was: 1) typed in the listing *including* the line numbers, address, and object code 2) used an awk script to process that into a source file 3) wrote an assembler compatible with the original HP assembler 4) assembled the source code, producing a listing file 5) compared the listing file output by the assembler to the listing I typed in 6) correct errors 7) lather, rinse, repeat From mikelee at tdh.com Thu Dec 9 23:14:42 2010 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 23:14:42 -0600 Subject: HP Netserver LX Pro Re: FFS: HP Memory Board D4262-60009 for LX Pro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D01B742.1080000@tdh.com> Jeff, Sorry to hijack your offer, but I can also add and offer more parts. I have a HP Netserver LX Pro that I will be parting out due to lack of interest as a whole. Of course consideration will be given to someone who might want the thing intact. It is some type of quad-ppro machine with 512Mb or 1Gb 72-pin ecc ram if I recall correctly. It's been in storage for some time now, so the chassis will have some rust, but not horrible. It's about 8-10U tall and can be rack mounted or it is on wheels currently. There are 12+x HP Netserver half height SCSI drive trays (also will work in the Netserver rack storage and other HP Netserver units), 2x 6 SCSI SCA half-height drive bays, 3x power supply, 2x PPro CPU cards, Memory cards, and anything else you might want from the thing. I believe I already grabbed the RAID card for other uses. Also around are memory and CPU cards from older dual CPU pentium units I pulled when I parted those. Shipping parts is ok, but not the whole thing. Located in 60194, near Chicago. Mike On 12/9/2010 10:23 PM, Jeff Walther wrote: > Anyone have a use for this? It is a memory expansion board of some kind > from a Netserver LX PRO. > > It has sixteen 72 pin SIMM slots. Not populated. > > HP D4262-60009 > > Free for cost of shipping from 78759 > > Jeff Walther From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu Dec 9 23:21:54 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 21:21:54 -0800 Subject: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <4D01B6B9.5060405@brouhaha.com> References: <4D00109D.6010103@bitsavers.org> <4D01A403.5020301@mail.msu.edu> <4D01B6B9.5060405@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4D01B8F2.3050400@mail.msu.edu> On 12/9/2010 9:12 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Josh Dersch wrote: > > I was considering it, but it's about 950 pages which makes it a > rather daunting task. > > I typed in around that many pages of listings on two different > occasions, once for the HP-41C mainframe ROM source code, and once for > HP 2000C Time-Shared BASIC. Each project took a few weeks of spare > time. However, I don't have spare time any more, so I'm not likely to > do this for the Tek listings. That's dedication :). > > > Is there any OCR software that can deal with this sort of thing? > This is > > potentially made more complicated by the fact that there are horizontal > > lines across most of the pages, which in many cases intersect with > the text > > (which also isn't the clearest text I've ever seen). > > The aforementioned source code listings were in better shape than this > Tek listing, and didn't have horizontal lines, but I couldn't find any > OCR package that could handle them. It would have taken far longer to > clean up the OCR output than it took me to type it in myself. OCR is > designed for business letters, not code listings. Yeah, that's pretty much what I expected. I guess even if the OCR software was robust enough to deal with the lines in the images, the occasional bits of noise in the resulting text would be very annoying to track down and correct. > > What I did in each case was: > 1) typed in the listing *including* the line numbers, address, and > object code > 2) used an awk script to process that into a source file > 3) wrote an assembler compatible with the original HP assembler > 4) assembled the source code, producing a listing file > 5) compared the listing file output by the assembler to the listing I > typed in > 6) correct errors > 7) lather, rinse, repeat > I'd love to do something like that with these Tek sources, and then tie it in with the emulator I've been toying with, but I just don't think I have the time. It'd be really nice to have the emulator's debugger be able to match up the current instruction with line(s) from the source files, etc... Josh From doc at vaxen.net Fri Dec 10 00:27:09 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 00:27:09 -0600 Subject: Wow! Lego Antikythera device -- and it works In-Reply-To: <4D0172BA.8040003@snarc.net> References: <4D0172BA.8040003@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4D01C83D.7080504@vaxen.net> Evan Koblentz wrote: > http://therawfeed.com/apple-engineer-re-creates-2000-year-old-greek I thought the Antikythera Research Project decided a few years ago that the original did NOT use differential gearing. To be perfectly honest, the fact that the Antikythera incorporates the first known User Guide impresses me as much as the technology.... Doc From evan at snarc.net Fri Dec 10 00:48:50 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 01:48:50 -0500 Subject: Wow! Lego Antikythera device -- and it works In-Reply-To: <4D01C83D.7080504@vaxen.net> References: <4D0172BA.8040003@snarc.net> <4D01C83D.7080504@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4D01CD52.90701@snarc.net> > Evan Koblentz wrote: >> http://therawfeed.com/apple-engineer-re-creates-2000-year-old-greek > > I thought the Antikythera Research Project decided a few years ago > that the original did NOT use differential gearing. That might be true. This guy explains that he used diffs because of the limitations of Lego. It's not an EXACT replica. From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri Dec 10 01:49:20 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 08:49:20 +0100 Subject: Wow! Lego Antikythera device -- and it works In-Reply-To: <4D0172BA.8040003@snarc.net> References: <4D0172BA.8040003@snarc.net> Message-ID: > http://therawfeed.com/apple-engineer-re-creates-2000-year-old-greek > Very impressive. May be a nice project to spend some time during the X-Mas peiod. Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Dec 10 04:36:50 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 11:36:50 +0100 (CET) Subject: Unknown TI logic series Message-ID: Hi everyone, we've had a look inside our IME 122 calculator and discovered that it is full of SN14xx logic ICs. They are mainly from TI, but there are also some from Motorola and others. It seems that they have the same function and pinout as the SN74xx parts but there must be a difference since the machine has quite a lot of SN1401 (the SN7401 is a quad open-collector NAND), but there are no pullup resistors anywhere! Some of the types are SN1400, SN1401, SN1474, SN1490; the ALU is made up of SN1482 and SN1483. Anyone knows this series? BTW the supply voltage is 5V. Christian From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Dec 10 05:59:35 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 06:59:35 -0500 Subject: SCSI sector size In-Reply-To: References: <9507677033BA43EBBDD010E9CB23DDE8@portajara> Message-ID: <4D021627.8050802@verizon.net> On 12/09/2010 05:00 PM, Simon Fryer wrote: > Hi, > > On 10/12/2010, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >> Sirs, >> >> I have some old systems (sun, SGI, commodore, etc) and some new systems >> (PC, whatever). For all those systems I have few SCSI drivers. Should I >> include on external SCSI boxes with CD-ROMs and DVD-ROMs a switch for >> changing the SCSI sector size or can I keep everything on 512 bytes which >> seems to be the more common? >> > Personally, I add switches just in case. It is good insurance so that > you will never need to use it! :) > > Following on from this I expect the usual discussion about 512 / 2048 > byte blocks, the actual format of the CD / DVD and where the 2048<-> > 512 byte conversion is done. > > Simon > > However if your replacing a older SCSI to MFM bridge you need to do 256bytes. Note: scsi makes no assumption of sector size, that is a device thing and tapes can be far larger (DLT 16K or larger). Allison From feldman.r at comcast.net Fri Dec 10 08:55:03 2010 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 14:55:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Wow! Lego Antikythera device -- and it works Message-ID: <981514101.513194.1291992903779.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> >Message: 26 >Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 00:27:09 -0600 >From: Doc Shipley < doc at vaxen.net > >Subject: Re: Wow! Lego Antikythera device -- and it works >Evan Koblentz wrote: >> http://therawfeed.com/apple-engineer-re-creates-2000-year-old-greek > >?? I thought the Antikythera Research Project decided a few years ago >that the original did NOT use differential gearing. > >?? To be perfectly honest, the fact that the Antikythera incorporates >the first known User Guide impresses me as much as the technology.... > >????????Doc > The report in The Register ( http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/12/10/lego_computer/ ) includes some additional links, including one to an interesting article in Nature News from Nov. 24th at http://www.nature.com/news/2010/101124/full/468496a.html . Bob From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Dec 10 10:31:25 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 17:31:25 +0100 (CET) Subject: SCSI sector size In-Reply-To: <4D021627.8050802@verizon.net> References: <9507677033BA43EBBDD010E9CB23DDE8@portajara> <4D021627.8050802@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Dec 2010, allison wrote: > However if your replacing a older SCSI to MFM bridge you need to > do 256bytes. I'd like to see an MFM (ST-412) CD-ROM drive ;-) Christian From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 10 11:02:58 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 10:02:58 -0700 Subject: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <4D01B8F2.3050400@mail.msu.edu> References: <4D00109D.6010103@bitsavers.org> <4D01A403.5020301@mail.msu.edu> <4D01B6B9.5060405@brouhaha.com> <4D01B8F2.3050400@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: In article <4D01B8F2.3050400 at mail.msu.edu>, Josh Dersch writes: > I'd love to do something like that with these Tek sources, and then tie > it in with the emulator I've been toying with, but I just don't think I > have the time. It'd be really nice to have the emulator's debugger be > able to match up the current instruction with line(s) from the source > files, etc... Seems like a good application of Amazon's "mechanical turk" web service, if you're willing to pay a small bounty for someone else to transcribe the PDFs. If you were to use Amazon's service, I'd split the PDF files into smaller files containing 5 pages each and submit those as the unit of work to the service. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Fri Dec 10 11:06:16 2010 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 11:06:16 -0600 Subject: Happy DEC-10 everyone! Message-ID: And remember, if it's not 36 bits, you're not playing with a full DEC! From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Dec 10 11:57:03 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 11:57:03 -0600 Subject: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: References: <4D00109D.6010103@bitsavers.org> <4D01A403.5020301@mail.msu.edu> <4D01B6B9.5060405@brouhaha.com> <4D01B8F2.3050400@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <201012101806.oBAI65wD032802@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 11:02 AM 12/10/2010, Richard wrote: >Seems like a good application of Amazon's "mechanical turk" web >service, if you're willing to pay a small bounty for someone else to >transcribe the PDFs. If you were to use Amazon's service, I'd split >the PDF files into smaller files containing 5 pages each and submit >those as the unit of work to the service. What do you estimate that would cost? - John From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Dec 10 12:14:05 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 13:14:05 -0500 Subject: Happy DEC-10 everyone! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 12:06 PM, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > And remember, if it's not 36 bits, you're not playing with a full DEC! XKLeTen@ r zork The dungeon is available for exploring Monday thru Friday: 00:00 - 24:00 It is also open weekends and holidays. Welcome to Dungeon. This version created March 30. You are in an open field west of a big white house, with a boarded front door. There is a small mailbox here. > > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Dec 10 12:22:36 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 10:22:36 -0800 Subject: Onyx C-8000??? In-Reply-To: <4D019DBB.30200@atarimuseum.com> References: <9FCDBAAD1C4543969D12CFF6EFC78C24@vl420mt> <4CFE6D54.6050702@atarimuseum.com> <4CFEF98F.7070004@bitsavers.org> <4CFEFC03.7060002@atarimuseum.com> <7F2B1317-6B1F-4326-AEE3-F5E5DBBE2812@xlisper.com> <4D019DBB.30200@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4D026FEC.5030506@bitsavers.org> On 12/9/10 7:25 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Really? He interested in parting with one? Does you have the Onix disks? > Software was distributed on tape (unique format to the Onyx) I've put what we had in the CHM archive on the C8002 up under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/onyx From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Dec 10 12:28:50 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 13:28:50 -0500 Subject: Onyx C-8000??? In-Reply-To: <4D026FEC.5030506@bitsavers.org> References: <9FCDBAAD1C4543969D12CFF6EFC78C24@vl420mt> <4CFE6D54.6050702@atarimuseum.com> <4CFEF98F.7070004@bitsavers.org> <4CFEFC03.7060002@atarimuseum.com> <7F2B1317-6B1F-4326-AEE3-F5E5DBBE2812@xlisper.com> <4D019DBB.30200@atarimuseum.com> <4D026FEC.5030506@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4D027162.4030405@atarimuseum.com> Thats right, same like the 3Plus Open Servers, software only came on tapes... Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/9/10 7:25 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> Really? He interested in parting with one? Does you have the Onix disks? >> > > Software was distributed on tape (unique format to the Onyx) > > I've put what we had in the CHM archive on the C8002 up under > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/onyx > > > From rickb at bensene.com Fri Dec 10 12:56:02 2010 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 10:56:02 -0800 Subject: UTek Installation Tape Images? In-Reply-To: <4D027162.4030405@atarimuseum.com> References: <9FCDBAAD1C4543969D12CFF6EFC78C24@vl420mt> <4CFE6D54.6050702@atarimuseum.com><4CFEF98F.7070004@bitsavers.org> <4CFEFC03.7060002@atarimuseum.com><7F2B1317-6B1F-4326-AEE3-F5E5DBBE2812@xlisper.com><4D019DBB.30200@atarimuseum.com> <4D026FEC.5030506@bitsavers.org> <4D027162.4030405@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: Hi, all, I have a Tektronix 4132 (National 32016-based) Unix workstation that the hard disk died in (A Maxtor XT3280), and I've managed to find a replacement drive that works, but don't have any of the tapes (1/4" DC300-style QIC 24) with the standalone utilities or UTek installation on them. Stupidly, I never imaged the drive when the system was running, so I have no way to bring the machine back up again. I'm wondering if anyone out there has imaged the UTek installation tapes. I think that the version of Utek is 3.2, but not positive. I have an old Sun Sparc 1+ with a good QIC 24 drive in it that I could use to recreate the tapes, and I have a good supply of known good tapes. Just need the bits. I'd love to bring this old machine back to life, but without an OS, it's pretty useless. Failing there being images of the standalone utilities tape (bootable, serves as base for formatting and partitioning drive, and installing UTek) and the UTek installation tapes (I think it took two tapes if I remember correctly), maybe someone out there has some tapes that I could try copying or imaging? I know it's a shot in the dark, as these machines weren't very common in their day, and are probably as rare as hens teeth today. But, I figured if there was any place to post a plea for help, this is the best. -Rick Bensene From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 10 12:59:20 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 11:59:20 -0700 Subject: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <201012101806.oBAI65wD032802@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <4D00109D.6010103@bitsavers.org> <4D01A403.5020301@mail.msu.edu> <4D01B6B9.5060405@brouhaha.com> <4D01B8F2.3050400@mail.msu.edu> <201012101806.oBAI65wD032802@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: In article <201012101806.oBAI65wD032802 at billY.EZWIND.NET>, John Foust writes: > At 11:02 AM 12/10/2010, Richard wrote: > >Seems like a good application of Amazon's "mechanical turk" web > >service, if you're willing to pay a small bounty for someone else to > >transcribe the PDFs. If you were to use Amazon's service, I'd split > >the PDF files into smaller files containing 5 pages each and submit > >those as the unit of work to the service. > > What do you estimate that would cost? If I were going that route, I'd setup some test batches at various price points to check for accuracy vs. reward paid. Then I'd setup a paypal account to which all interested parties could donate to fund work items. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Dec 10 13:31:19 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 11:31:19 -0800 Subject: Happy DEC-10 everyone! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Ethan Dicks Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 10:14 AM > On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 12:06 PM, Daniel Seagraves > wrote: >> And remember, if it's not 36 bits, you're not playing with a full DEC! > XKLeTen@ r zork > The dungeon is available for exploring Monday thru Friday: > 00:00 - 24:00 > It is also open weekends and holidays. > Welcome to Dungeon. > This version created March 30. > You are in an open field west of a big white house, with a boarded > front door. > There is a small mailbox here. Hey, Ethan, I was on the Toad-1 creating a couple of accounts (requests do come in from time to time, even now), and saw that you were running Zork. Talk about timing--you could have been there and left before I got on, or after. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 10 12:53:49 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 18:53:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? In-Reply-To: from "Nigel Williams" at Dec 10, 10 09:40:38 am Message-ID: > > On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 8:46 AM, Tony Duell wrote= > : > > > > I think this thing uses the well-known Keytonics cpacitive keyboard.The > > foam pads under the keys can fail with age (resultign in non-working > > keys), also the metalising on the back of the lower plasic disk can > > vanish (!). > > Patrick Sch=E4fer has suggested a different material for repair of Lisa > keyboards, the metal-foil-like wrapping from a crisps/chips/fries I wonder if those metalised mylar emergency 'blankets' would work. The origianl plastic was much thicker and more rigid that either of these alternatives, but that might not matter. But I wonder if something closer to the original could be found to keep the thing nearer the original. > pack. I have not tried this yet but I am collecting the packaging. > Patrick also describes a handy Lisa keyboard tester. Hmmm... I notice he won';t release the firmware source. I can fully understnad why the sources for commercial products are often not available, but my suspicious mind suggests that one reason why they wouldn't be avaialble for soemthign like this is that the author is aashamed of the code. In which case I am not sure I'd trust it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 10 13:24:58 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 19:24:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Happy DEC-10 everyone! In-Reply-To: from "Daniel Seagraves" at Dec 10, 10 11:06:16 am Message-ID: > > And remember, if it's not 36 bits, you're not playing with a full DEC! Reminds me of a converstaion a fried of mine had with another chap shortly after I';d obtained a much lesser machine (a PDP11) and was looking for various bits for lit, like a DL11... "I've got a mad firend with a PDP11" "How can you possibly call anyone who owns a PDP11 'mad'" "Well, he's a few cards short of a full DEC" -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 10 13:01:05 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 19:01:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: apple Lisa2. One working!! - one to go? In-Reply-To: from "Terry Stewart" at Dec 10, 10 11:58:32 am Message-ID: > > > It would be very useful to know if this is a floppy controller error or a > > hard idsk cotnroller error. > > Yes, I'd like to know that myself! I'cve had a look at the I/O board schematics on thw web, the Widget interface seems to be a parallel 8bit data bus + control lines, somewhat akin to SASI/SCSI. It's implemented using a 6522 adn a little TTL. The data lines are used for some other function (contrast control I think), so if that works the 6522 is probably working. If there's a hard disk problem it's in the Widget itself. > > Right. This is a Sony 400K drive, as in the other Lisa, right? To > > eliminate the silly faults, I would at least check the power at the drive > > connector, and also see what the various signals are doing. > > Good idea. >From the I.O board schematics, it appears the floppy controller and interface is what I'd expect... > > 2) Check the logic signals the floppy drive interface connector. Is there > > any activity (changing signals) here? Anything chenge when you put a disk > > in? > > Nope the drive is dead. And this time even with DD disks! Lights are on > inside it though so it might be getting power. The drive's been > cleaned/relubed and the platter turns. It would be worth me checking out > the signals on the card edge though and comparing them to the working > machine. That's what I meant. Do any of the signals on the interface conenctor change when you put a DD disk in? > > > 4) The floppy coitnroller has its own 6504 microprocessor I believe. Can > > you see activity (changing signals) on the address and data bus of this > > processor? > > I swapped out with a known good one, and it didn't make any difference. Err no. The point of checki nthe signals is not because I suspect the 6504 iteslf, but because I wanty to know if it's doing anything. A microprocesosr cna appear 'dard' becuase it's not getting a clock signal, or because it's being held in the reset state. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 10 13:07:30 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 19:07:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Wow! Lego Antikythera device -- and it works In-Reply-To: <4D0172BA.8040003@snarc.net> from "Evan Koblentz" at Dec 9, 10 07:22:18 pm Message-ID: > > http://therawfeed.com/apple-engineer-re-creates-2000-year-old-greek > I would not describe it as a re-creation. Although it does the same thing (we think), and I asusem the overall gear ratios are thus the same, the acutal deisng is totally different (it has to me, to fit into the constraints imposed by a limited number of tooh counts in Lego gears). It's a neat hack, sure, but I don't really see how it relates to a 2000-year-old device. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 10 13:10:48 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 19:10:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <4D01B6B9.5060405@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Dec 9, 10 09:12:25 pm Message-ID: > I typed in around that many pages of listings on two different > occasions, once for the HP-41C mainframe ROM source code, and once for > HP 2000C Time-Shared BASIC. Each project took a few weeks of spare Are your (presumably plain text) versions of these listings avaialble anywhere? -tony From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Dec 10 13:37:57 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 14:37:57 -0500 Subject: Parallel Dongles Message-ID: Anybody know how to read an old parallel port dongle (Rainbow Tech Sentinel Pro) to find out what software/version it is for? From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Dec 10 14:14:00 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 14:14:00 -0600 Subject: Parallel Dongles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201012102016.oBAKG0PH037996@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 01:37 PM 12/10/2010, you wrote: >Anybody know how to read an old parallel port dongle (Rainbow Tech Sentinel Pro) to find out what software/version it is for? Software publishers could buy batches with serial numbers for particular releases, so I would guess only an insider at Rainbow or the software company would be able to tell. The Rainbow dongles were marked with the various numbers. Some publishers added their own stickers to tell them apart. - John From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Dec 10 14:13:00 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 18:13:00 -0200 Subject: SCSI sector size References: <9507677033BA43EBBDD010E9CB23DDE8@portajara><4D021627.8050802@verizon.net> Message-ID: <702A8056D3A74E10BEA737FFE8478A01@portajara> >> However if your replacing a older SCSI to MFM bridge you need to >> do 256bytes. > I'd like to see an MFM (ST-412) CD-ROM drive ;-) If the CD-ROM is MFM so the GD-ROM is RLL? :oD From terry at webweavers.co.nz Fri Dec 10 14:21:57 2010 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 09:21:57 +1300 Subject: apple Lisa2. One working!! - one to go? References: Message-ID: > The data lines are used for some other function (contrast control I > think), so if that works the 6522 is probably working. If there's a hard > disk problem it's in the Widget itself. Now that's interesting. The knob which I assume is the contrast (just below the brighness one) appears to do absolutelyt nothing? > That's what I meant. Do any of the signals on the interface conenctor > change when you put a DD disk in? >> I swapped out with a known good one, and it didn't make any difference. > > Err no. The point of checki nthe signals is not because I suspect the > 6504 iteslf, but because I wanty to know if it's doing anything. A > microprocesosr cna appear 'dard' becuase it's not getting a clock signal, > or because it's being held in the reset state. Right. No chance to look at the Lisa last night but the weekend should give me some time out in the computer shack. I'll check the 6504 signals and also those on the floppy card edge. If I find anything unsual on the latter I'll try and follow it back through the circuit. Thanks for the analysis and suggestions. Terry From terry at webweavers.co.nz Fri Dec 10 14:26:33 2010 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 09:26:33 +1300 Subject: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? References: Message-ID: Interesting. It's amazing the gadgets enthuisasts have developed. I'll wait until I get some software and get at least one Lisa booting before worrying about the keyboard. I think this Lisa restoration is going to be one for the long haul. Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 7:53 AM Subject: Re: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? >> >> On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 8:46 AM, Tony Duell >> wrote= >> : >> > >> > I think this thing uses the well-known Keytonics cpacitive keyboard.The >> > foam pads under the keys can fail with age (resultign in non-working >> > keys), also the metalising on the back of the lower plasic disk can >> > vanish (!). >> >> Patrick Sch=E4fer has suggested a different material for repair of Lisa >> keyboards, the metal-foil-like wrapping from a crisps/chips/fries > > I wonder if those metalised mylar emergency 'blankets' would work. > > The origianl plastic was much thicker and more rigid that either of these > alternatives, but that might not matter. But I wonder if something closer > to the original could be found to keep the thing nearer the original. > >> pack. I have not tried this yet but I am collecting the packaging. >> Patrick also describes a handy Lisa keyboard tester. > > Hmmm... I notice he won';t release the firmware source. I can fully > understnad why the sources for commercial products are often not > available, but my suspicious mind suggests that one reason why they > wouldn't be avaialble for soemthign like this is that the author is > aashamed of the code. In which case I am not sure I'd trust it. > > -tony > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 10 14:28:40 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 20:28:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: apple Lisa2. One working!! - one to go? In-Reply-To: from "terry stewart" at Dec 11, 10 09:21:57 am Message-ID: > > > The data lines are used for some other function (contrast control I > > think), so if that works the 6522 is probably working. If there's a hard > > disk problem it's in the Widget itself. > > Now that's interesting. The knob which I assume is the contrast (just below > the brighness one) appears to do absolutelyt nothing? I don;t think it relates to a physical knob... There is a DAC on the I.O board (see sheet 5 of the schemaitc I think) that is fed from the same VIA port as the data lines to the Widget (the latter are buffered by a '245 chip) -- I think the CIA and buffer are on sheet 2. I've not traced the output of the DAC in detail, and some bits of schematic don't seem to exist on the site I was looking at, like the backplane, but I thoguht the schemaitc implied that DAC was some kind of software-controlled contrast facility. -tony From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Fri Dec 10 14:34:57 2010 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 14:34:57 -0600 Subject: Happy DEC-10 everyone! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3DB0909E-FB6B-4A20-B789-8AA9F66AE858@lunar-tokyo.net> On Dec 10, 2010, at 1:24 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> And remember, if it's not 36 bits, you're not playing with a full DEC! > > Reminds me of a converstaion a fried of mine had with another chap > shortly after I';d obtained a much lesser machine (a PDP11) and was > looking for various bits for lit, like a DL11... > > "I've got a mad firend with a PDP11" > "How can you possibly call anyone who owns a PDP11 'mad'" > "Well, he's a few cards short of a full DEC" Geez, if he thinks a guy win an 11 is mad, I wonder where that puts me... -_- From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Fri Dec 10 15:07:57 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 13:07:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <180241.45629.qm@web83913.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> It'd probably go a lot faster if you swapped some boards from one to the other. ;) ________________________________ From: terry stewart To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Fri, December 10, 2010 2:26:33 PM Subject: Re: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? Interesting. It's amazing the gadgets enthuisasts have developed. I'll wait until I get some software and get at least one Lisa booting before worrying about the keyboard. I think this Lisa restoration is going to be one for the long haul. Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 7:53 AM Subject: Re: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? >> >> On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 8:46 AM, Tony Duell >> wrote= >> : >> > >> > I think this thing uses the well-known Keytonics cpacitive keyboard.The >> > foam pads under the keys can fail with age (resultign in non-working >> > keys), also the metalising on the back of the lower plasic disk can >> > vanish (!). >> >> Patrick Sch=E4fer has suggested a different material for repair of Lisa >> keyboards, the metal-foil-like wrapping from a crisps/chips/fries > > I wonder if those metalised mylar emergency 'blankets' would work. > > The origianl plastic was much thicker and more rigid that either of these > alternatives, but that might not matter. But I wonder if something closer > to the original could be found to keep the thing nearer the original. > >> pack. I have not tried this yet but I am collecting the packaging. >> Patrick also describes a handy Lisa keyboard tester. > > Hmmm... I notice he won';t release the firmware source. I can fully > understnad why the sources for commercial products are often not > available, but my suspicious mind suggests that one reason why they > wouldn't be avaialble for soemthign like this is that the author is > aashamed of the code. In which case I am not sure I'd trust it. > > -tony > From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Dec 10 15:23:08 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 13:23:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Happy DEC-10 everyone! In-Reply-To: <3DB0909E-FB6B-4A20-B789-8AA9F66AE858@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <3DB0909E-FB6B-4A20-B789-8AA9F66AE858@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Dec 2010, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > On Dec 10, 2010, at 1:24 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >>> >>> And remember, if it's not 36 bits, you're not playing with a full DEC! >> >> Reminds me of a converstaion a fried of mine had with another chap >> shortly after I';d obtained a much lesser machine (a PDP11) and was >> looking for various bits for lit, like a DL11... >> >> "I've got a mad firend with a PDP11" >> "How can you possibly call anyone who owns a PDP11 'mad'" >> "Well, he's a few cards short of a full DEC" > > Geez, if he thinks a guy win an 11 is mad, I wonder where that puts me... -_- Well, I was pretty mad back when I was short of a full DEC in my PDP-11! :-) These days I'm quite happy with my -11's except over the space they take up. As for you? The word that comes to mind isn't "Mad", but rather "Brave". I'm personally scared of the idea of owning a KS10. Zane From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Dec 10 15:36:38 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 16:36:38 -0500 Subject: DEC Rack gallery? Message-ID: Hi, All, I have had no luck googling any pictures of the short rack for the PDP-11V03 system (CPU + RX01 in a formica-topped office-friendly rack) that I *think* is called an H9610. For that matter, I was largely unsuccessful in finding pics of most DEC racks by rack part number (i.e., finding an 11/70 picture is easy - finding an H960 picture is not). Textual material for various rack configurations abound, but not pictures accessible by Google image search. If anyone knows of a gallery of rack pictures, I'd be grateful if you'd share the URL. Thanks, -ethan From terry at webweavers.co.nz Fri Dec 10 15:45:44 2010 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 10:45:44 +1300 Subject: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? References: <180241.45629.qm@web83913.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Not with this Lisa 2/10 Geoff. The I/O board is different from the two earlier Lisa's I've got, and it's the I/O board that has the fault. And I've only got one widget drive. Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "geoffrey oltmans" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 10:07 AM Subject: Re: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? > It'd probably go a lot faster if you swapped some boards from one to the > other. > ;) > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: terry stewart > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Sent: Fri, December 10, 2010 2:26:33 PM > Subject: Re: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? > > Interesting. It's amazing the gadgets enthuisasts have developed. > > I'll wait until I get some software and get at least one Lisa booting > before > worrying about the keyboard. I think this Lisa restoration is going to be > one for the long haul. > > Terry > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tony Duell" > To: > Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 7:53 AM > Subject: Re: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? > > >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 8:46 AM, Tony Duell >>> wrote= >>> : >>> > >>> > I think this thing uses the well-known Keytonics cpacitive >>> > keyboard.The >>> > foam pads under the keys can fail with age (resultign in non-working >>> > keys), also the metalising on the back of the lower plasic disk can >>> > vanish (!). >>> >>> Patrick Sch=E4fer has suggested a different material for repair of Lisa >>> keyboards, the metal-foil-like wrapping from a crisps/chips/fries >> >> I wonder if those metalised mylar emergency 'blankets' would work. >> >> The origianl plastic was much thicker and more rigid that either of these >> alternatives, but that might not matter. But I wonder if something closer >> to the original could be found to keep the thing nearer the original. >> >>> pack. I have not tried this yet but I am collecting the packaging. >>> Patrick also describes a handy Lisa keyboard tester. >> >> Hmmm... I notice he won';t release the firmware source. I can fully >> understnad why the sources for commercial products are often not >> available, but my suspicious mind suggests that one reason why they >> wouldn't be avaialble for soemthign like this is that the author is >> aashamed of the code. In which case I am not sure I'd trust it. >> >> -tony >> > From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Dec 10 15:46:18 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 13:46:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: DEC Rack gallery? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Dec 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Textual material for various rack configurations abound, but not > pictures accessible by Google image search. If anyone knows of a > gallery of rack pictures, I'd be grateful if you'd share the URL. I don't know of one, but I think it would be a great project. No, I don't have time to take it on. :-( Zane From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 10 15:47:32 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 16:47:32 -0500 Subject: Happy DEC-10 everyone! In-Reply-To: References: <3DB0909E-FB6B-4A20-B789-8AA9F66AE858@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: <4D029FF4.1090409@neurotica.com> On 12/10/10 4:23 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Well, I was pretty mad back when I was short of a full DEC in my PDP-11! > :-) > These days I'm quite happy with my -11's except over the space they take > up. I very happily give my space to PDP-11s. =) > As for you? The word that comes to mind isn't "Mad", but rather > "Brave". I'm personally scared of the idea of owning a KS10. I have a KS10. The only scary part about it is not having enough time to do anything with it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Dec 10 15:52:24 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 22:52:24 +0100 Subject: DEC Rack gallery? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101210215224.GA16558@Update.UU.SE> On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 01:46:18PM -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > On Fri, 10 Dec 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > >Textual material for various rack configurations abound, but not > >pictures accessible by Google image search. If anyone knows of a > >gallery of rack pictures, I'd be grateful if you'd share the URL. > > I don't know of one, but I think it would be a great project. No, I don't > have time to take it on. :-( I could contribute with images. I think the PDP-11/10 at the computer club has the rack described in the original post. /P From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Dec 10 15:57:29 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 14:57:29 -0700 Subject: Happy DEC-10 everyone! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D02A249.7060609@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/10/2010 10:06 AM, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > And remember, if it's not 36 bits, you're not playing with a full DEC! So does having 3 PDP8's count? From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Dec 10 16:14:13 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 20:14:13 -0200 Subject: Happy DEC-10 everyone! References: <4D02A249.7060609@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <7973CBC1C6EE4F74BD4949CEC6F6EC48@portajara> >> And remember, if it's not 36 bits, you're not playing with a full DEC! If I put a 4004 (4 bits) in my pentium (32 bits) it becomes a "Full DEC" (36 bits)??? Hmmm, it is called "ADSL missing syndrome" :P From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Dec 10 16:33:34 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 14:33:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Happy DEC-10 everyone! In-Reply-To: <4D029FF4.1090409@neurotica.com> References: <3DB0909E-FB6B-4A20-B789-8AA9F66AE858@lunar-tokyo.net> <4D029FF4.1090409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Dec 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > I have a KS10. The only scary part about it is not having enough time > to do anything with it. Though thought of needing a spare part is what scares me. I doubt a KS10 is that much worse than my PDP-11/44, but the thought of needing spares scares me. Zane From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 10 16:37:25 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 17:37:25 -0500 Subject: Happy DEC-10 everyone! In-Reply-To: References: <3DB0909E-FB6B-4A20-B789-8AA9F66AE858@lunar-tokyo.net> <4D029FF4.1090409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D02ABA5.8070106@neurotica.com> On 12/10/10 5:33 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> I have a KS10. The only scary part about it is not having enough time >> to do anything with it. > > Though thought of needing a spare part is what scares me. I doubt a > KS10 is > that much worse than my PDP-11/44, but the thought of needing spares scares > me. I'm lucky to have a bunch of spares. But as I recall it's mostly TTL anyway; not too tough to troubleshoot. Speaking of spares, you wouldn't happen to have a spare top cover for an 11/44, would you? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Dec 10 16:37:33 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 17:37:33 -0500 Subject: Happy DEC-10 everyone! In-Reply-To: References: <3DB0909E-FB6B-4A20-B789-8AA9F66AE858@lunar-tokyo.net> <4D029FF4.1090409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Though thought of needing a spare part is what scares me. ?I doubt a KS10 is > that much worse than my PDP-11/44, but the thought of needing spares scares > me. The problem with running a KS10 is that there is a very restrictive list of disks and tapes it will play with. -- Will From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Dec 10 16:44:19 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 14:44:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Happy DEC-10 everyone! In-Reply-To: <4D02ABA5.8070106@neurotica.com> References: <3DB0909E-FB6B-4A20-B789-8AA9F66AE858@lunar-tokyo.net> <4D029FF4.1090409@neurotica.com> <4D02ABA5.8070106@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Dec 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > Speaking of spares, you wouldn't happen to have a spare top cover for > an 11/44, would you? I'm afraid not. Something to keep in mind is that there were apparently more than one Chassis used in /44's. So the tops might be different. I have figured out how to get the chassis out of the rack, that made moving it the first time "interesting". The second time we just rolled it up into the bed of my Pickup. Zane From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 10 16:47:40 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 17:47:40 -0500 Subject: Happy DEC-10 everyone! In-Reply-To: References: <3DB0909E-FB6B-4A20-B789-8AA9F66AE858@lunar-tokyo.net> <4D029FF4.1090409@neurotica.com> <4D02ABA5.8070106@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D02AE0C.1000800@neurotica.com> On 12/10/10 5:44 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Speaking of spares, you wouldn't happen to have a spare top cover for >> an 11/44, would you? > > I'm afraid not. Mine has an 11/24 lid on it. :-( Well, the lid is compatible, but the module placement sticker on the top says "11/24" (with KDF11-UA, etc) and I'm a bit anal sometimes. ;) > Something to keep in mind is that there were apparently more than one > Chassis used in /44's. So the tops might be different. I have figured out > how to get the chassis out of the rack, that made moving it the first time > "interesting". The second time we just rolled it up into the bed of my > Pickup. Ahh ok, gotcha. Thanks for the tip! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Dec 10 16:48:46 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 14:48:46 -0800 Subject: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: References: <4D00109D.6010103@bitsavers.org> <4D01A403.5020301@mail.msu.edu> <4D01B6B9.5060405@brouhaha.com> <4D01B8F2.3050400@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4D02AE4E.205@brouhaha.com> Richard wrote: > Seems like a good application of Amazon's "mechanical turk" web > service, if you're willing to pay a small bounty for someone else to > transcribe the PDFs. If you were to use Amazon's service, I'd split > the PDF files into smaller files containing 5 pages each and submit > those as the unit of work to the service. Same problem as OCR. You'd spend more time cleaning up the results than it would take to type it in yourself. Eric From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Dec 10 16:59:28 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 17:59:28 -0500 Subject: Happy DEC-10 everyone! In-Reply-To: <4D02A249.7060609@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4D02A249.7060609@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 4:57 PM, ben wrote: > On 12/10/2010 10:06 AM, Daniel Seagraves wrote: >> >> And remember, if it's not 36 bits, you're not playing with a full DEC! > > So does having 3 PDP8's count? If they were in the same box they might... (I have a CompuServe "Trinode" - three 9-slot Qbus backplanes, three power supplies, three reset buttons, one cube-like enclosure - that's a 48-bit processor, right? ;-) -ethan From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Dec 10 18:36:35 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 16:36:35 -0800 Subject: Happy DEC-10 everyone! In-Reply-To: <4D029FF4.1090409@neurotica.com> References: <3DB0909E-FB6B-4A20-B789-8AA9F66AE858@lunar-tokyo.net> <4D029FF4.1090409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 1:48 PM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Happy DEC-10 everyone! > > On 12/10/10 4:23 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Well, I was pretty mad back when I was short of a full DEC in my PDP- > 11! > > :-) > > These days I'm quite happy with my -11's except over the space they > take > > up. > > I very happily give my space to PDP-11s. =) > > > As for you? The word that comes to mind isn't "Mad", but rather > > "Brave". I'm personally scared of the idea of owning a KS10. > > I have a KS10. The only scary part about it is not having enough > time > to do anything with it. > > -Dave We have a KL-10. Now that's a whole lotta machine! :-) -- Ian From ray at arachelian.com Fri Dec 10 19:49:59 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 20:49:59 -0500 Subject: apple Lisa2. One working!! - one to go? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D02D8C7.6070602@arachelian.com> On 12/08/2010 04:47 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > Tony (and anyone else interested), > > Here is the symptom on this Lisa 2/10 (or Mac XL as they are also > called sometimes). XL just stands for Ex-Lisa. Apple tried to imply Extra Large, as in it looks 2x as wide as a Mac 128, but insiders have mentioned Ex-Lisa repeatedly. > > It passes all tests until it gets to the I/O board test. It then > fails with an error 57 message (disk controller fault). Reading Lisa > 2 documentation suggests this is the Lisa Lite adaptor, but with a > Lisa 2/10 there is no such thing. The floppy disk is connected > straight to the I/O board. I am not sure if the fault is on the I/O > board itself, or somewhere on the Widget hard drive controller? I've > found the schematics, but no real "theory of operation" docs for the > widget drive itself. Right, that board is needed only by the Lisa's that have a battery pack on the I/O board. > > The Lisa allows you to click on both the hard drive icon or the floppy > drive icon even after the error is posted. Neither work. The hard > drive comes up with an error 82 which means "Drive doesn't answer". I > can't recall right now what the floppy error is, but it doesn't spin > up or eject, even with a DD drive. Might just need an OS installed, which of course you'd need to fix the floppy issues for. There's a wonderful test suite called LisaTest, but of course, it's useless without a working floppy system. Check the obvious first, make sure the floppy cable isn't inserted backwards, etc. Try swapping the floppy drive to your other working Lisa to see if it works there. At least that way you can eliminate it, though your symptoms are obviously not the drive itself. > > I suspect the fault is on the I/O board itself as the floppy seems > dead even when the hard disk is disconnected. However, I'm not > assuming anything. This may be just because the I/O has reported an > error, or it's functionality may need the widget drive to be on-line. > > Some other things... > > 1. With the widget and floppy drive unplugged, the same error occurs > (but this might be because they ARE unplugged). The error also occurs > with either one or the other plugged in > > 2. When I switch on, the widget drive spins up, the drive light > flashes and I "think" I can hear the "clack" people write about when > the brake is released. It's quite noisy but I believe these drives are. > It's perfectly normal for Widget (and ProFile) drives to take upto 5 minutes to become ready. On powerup, the drive starts scanning for bad sectors. The drive light is a "ready" light. That is, the LED turns off when it's active (or flashes) and turns on steady when it's ready to go. The fact that you're seeing this behavior is a good thing. But 82 means the drive isn't answering, could be a Widget controller issue. http://lisafaq.sunder.net/index.html#lisafaq-hw-hd http://lisafaq.sunder.net/lisafaq-hw-rom_error_codes.html > 3. I've cleaned all the card edges. > > 4. I'm fairly sure I have the right ROMS. The machine reports H/E8. > H is correct for the Lisa 2/10. E8 (which refers to the floppy disk > routine I think) is not documented anywhere. 88 seems more common. > It may be a later revision. I've never heard of E8. It's either 88 or A8. It may be that you have one that has the 800K floppy hack ROM, though, no one has reported those has having a different ROM version, is your monitor ok, are you perhaps misreading A8 as E8? If not, it could be the ROM might be corrupted. Looking at the boot ROM source, 57 actually means: "57 = bus error accessing disk controller" This means that the Lisa ROM attempted to access the 6504 when the 6504 was busy. There's a signal that prevents the 68K CPU from accessing the floppy RAM while the disk controller is busy. If it tries, it gets a bus error. This is the DISKDIAG line. There's another bit of code where if DISKDIAG is held too long, it will issue the same exact error. Either way, something's wrong with the 6504 disk controller circuitry somewhere. So more than likely, something is wrong with your I/O board, possibly the ROM, RAM, or 6504 CPU are bad. If you can, find another I/O ROM, I think you'll want version 88 for the Lisa 2/10. If you're able to locate the ROM dumps and burn your own EPROMs, that might be another option, it would at least be something to try. The ROM is socketed, and usually labeled with a sticker that has the version number and says "Copyright Apple" somewhere ot. Check the label on it, I'm guessing it would say 88. If you actually see E8, you might want to get a dump of it as it's unknown to me, and might be useful. If you see SunRem or Sun Remarketing or anything like that, that might be the 800K ROM instead. 88=10001000 A8=10101000 E8=11101000 So that's a single bit difference if that ROM was supposed to be A8, but AFAIK, A8 shouldn't be in a Lisa 2/10, that should be 88. Or we could have random corruption on the ROM, it would make sense that DISKDIAG is held locked if this is the case. The shared RAM can also be an issue, as could the IWM chip. It would be great if you had a spare I/O board for the 2/10, because at least you could swap the socketed chips back and forth to see what it might be. A known good board to compare against would be helpful. But if you don't, I'd try to get a replacement 88 ROM, if that doesn't work, try replacing the RAM chips. A spare IWM would be impossible to find - you'd need another 2/10 I/O board for that. Hmm, you might be in luck: http://www.vintagemicros.com/catalog/index.php has I/O ROMs in stock, sadly, no whole I/O boards, but if it is the ROM, that's a very easy fix. You might also want to ask about this on the LisaList as there are a few very knowledgeable Lisa HW folks there that aren't on here. http://groups.google.com/group/lisalist?hl=en_US Let me know if you find anything interesting so I can add it to the LisaFAQ. From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Fri Dec 10 20:20:31 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 20:20:31 -0600 Subject: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? In-Reply-To: References: <180241.45629.qm@web83913.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3EBCC111-22C0-4CF8-B770-F9C3FB72F31E@bellsouth.net> Sorry... I was just joking. I remembered seeing the anti-board swap talk earlier. ;) On Dec 10, 2010, at 3:45 PM, terry stewart wrote: > Not with this Lisa 2/10 Geoff. The I/O board is different from the two earlier Lisa's I've got, and it's the I/O board that has the fault. And I've only got one widget drive. > > Terry > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "geoffrey oltmans" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 10:07 AM > Subject: Re: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? > > >> It'd probably go a lot faster if you swapped some boards from one to the other. >> ;) >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: terry stewart >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Sent: Fri, December 10, 2010 2:26:33 PM >> Subject: Re: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? >> >> Interesting. It's amazing the gadgets enthuisasts have developed. >> >> I'll wait until I get some software and get at least one Lisa booting before >> worrying about the keyboard. I think this Lisa restoration is going to be >> one for the long haul. >> >> Terry >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 7:53 AM >> Subject: Re: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? >> >> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 8:46 AM, Tony Duell >>>> wrote= >>>> : >>>> > >>>> > I think this thing uses the well-known Keytonics cpacitive > keyboard.The >>>> > foam pads under the keys can fail with age (resultign in non-working >>>> > keys), also the metalising on the back of the lower plasic disk can >>>> > vanish (!). >>>> >>>> Patrick Sch=E4fer has suggested a different material for repair of Lisa >>>> keyboards, the metal-foil-like wrapping from a crisps/chips/fries >>> >>> I wonder if those metalised mylar emergency 'blankets' would work. >>> >>> The origianl plastic was much thicker and more rigid that either of these >>> alternatives, but that might not matter. But I wonder if something closer >>> to the original could be found to keep the thing nearer the original. >>> >>>> pack. I have not tried this yet but I am collecting the packaging. >>>> Patrick also describes a handy Lisa keyboard tester. >>> >>> Hmmm... I notice he won';t release the firmware source. I can fully >>> understnad why the sources for commercial products are often not >>> available, but my suspicious mind suggests that one reason why they >>> wouldn't be avaialble for soemthign like this is that the author is >>> aashamed of the code. In which case I am not sure I'd trust it. >>> >>> -tony >>> > > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 10 20:44:51 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 18:44:51 -0800 Subject: Capacitors -- replacements? In-Reply-To: References: , <4D02A249.7060609@jetnet.ab.ca>, Message-ID: <4D027523.32363.1BDC56E@cclist.sydex.com> List, I've got a lovely old Lambda power supply here (linear +/-15, +/-5) that uses an old Sprague screw-mount (Computerlytic) capacitor. It's rated at 34000uF, 15WVDC. It's all dried out, so it needs replacement. It looks as if it's going to be difficult to find a working exact replacement. What in your experience works best in these applications? Plain old "snap in" electrolytics? Anyone have any hints on making the replacement fit the larger footprint? Thanks, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 10 21:31:22 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 22:31:22 -0500 Subject: Happy DEC-10 everyone! In-Reply-To: References: <3DB0909E-FB6B-4A20-B789-8AA9F66AE858@lunar-tokyo.net> <4D029FF4.1090409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D02F08A.6070402@neurotica.com> On 12/10/10 7:36 PM, Ian King wrote: >>> Well, I was pretty mad back when I was short of a full DEC in my PDP- >> 11! >>> :-) >>> These days I'm quite happy with my -11's except over the space they >> take >>> up. >> >> I very happily give my space to PDP-11s. =) >> >>> As for you? The word that comes to mind isn't "Mad", but rather >>> "Brave". I'm personally scared of the idea of owning a KS10. >> >> I have a KS10. The only scary part about it is not having enough >> time >> to do anything with it. > > We have a KL-10. Now that's a whole lotta machine! :-) -- Ian Hooboy yes! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Dec 10 22:44:30 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 20:44:30 -0800 Subject: Capacitors -- replacements? In-Reply-To: <4D027523.32363.1BDC56E@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4D02A249.7060609@jetnet.ab.ca>, , , <4D027523.32363.1BDC56E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Hi What demensions is it? There is a surplus place near here that often has screw mount type caps ( NOS ). also look for any caps that say they are long life electrolytics. These will also be bad. Dwight > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 18:44:51 -0800 > Subject: Capacitors -- replacements? > > > List, > > I've got a lovely old Lambda power supply here (linear +/-15, +/-5) > that uses an old Sprague screw-mount (Computerlytic) capacitor. It's > rated at 34000uF, 15WVDC. It's all dried out, so it needs > replacement. > > It looks as if it's going to be difficult to find a working exact > replacement. > > What in your experience works best in these applications? Plain old > "snap in" electrolytics? Anyone have any hints on making the > replacement fit the larger footprint? > > Thanks, > Chuck > > > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 10 22:54:01 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 20:54:01 -0800 Subject: Capacitors -- replacements? In-Reply-To: References: , <4D027523.32363.1BDC56E@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4D029369.19864.2340661@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Dec 2010 at 20:44, dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi > What demensions is it? There is a surplus place > near here that often has screw mount type caps > ( NOS ). also look for any caps that say they are long > life electrolytics. These will also be bad. Hi Dwight, Funny you should mention that--the cap in question is indeed labeled "Long Life". It's about 3" H x 2" in diameter. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Dec 10 22:57:51 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 21:57:51 -0700 Subject: Capacitors -- replacements? In-Reply-To: References: , , <4D02A249.7060609@jetnet.ab.ca>, , , <4D027523.32363.1BDC56E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D0304CF.10904@jetnet.ab.ca> Check here off hand > http://www.surplussales.com/Capacitors/Electrolytics/10000uF-300000uF.html From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Dec 10 23:11:04 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 21:11:04 -0800 Subject: Capacitors -- replacements? In-Reply-To: <4D027523.32363.1BDC56E@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4D02A249.7060609@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4D027523.32363.1BDC56E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2010 Dec 10, at 6:44 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've got a lovely old Lambda power supply here (linear +/-15, +/-5) > that uses an old Sprague screw-mount (Computerlytic) capacitor. It's > rated at 34000uF, 15WVDC. It's all dried out, so it needs > replacement. > > It looks as if it's going to be difficult to find a working exact > replacement. > > What in your experience works best in these applications? Plain old > "snap in" electrolytics? Anyone have any hints on making the > replacement fit the larger footprint? For mounting, how about: a) Cut out a large hole in the bottom of the can, leaving some of it for rigidity. Remove innards. Connect and stuff the new one in wrapped with some plastic packing to fill up the extra space. Or cut or pry open the seam at the top if you can leave enough metal to re-attach. b) If the old cap is actually screw-mounted by it's terminals to the PCB, and the new cap is small enough, again cut the can, but remove the insulated top with screw terminals (discard the can), drill 2 holes in it, zap strap the new cap to top and remount it on the PCB. c) Less trouble: drill 2 holes or screw down a plastic mounting to the chassis, to zap strap the new cap to. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 11 01:58:14 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 23:58:14 -0800 Subject: Capacitors -- replacements? In-Reply-To: <4D0304CF.10904@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , , <4D0304CF.10904@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4D02BE96.32573.2DCAED5@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Dec 2010 at 21:57, ben wrote: > Check here off hand > > http://www.surplussales.com/Capacitors/Electrolytics/10000uF-300000u > > F.html Nothing exact, but some pretty close-enough stuff. How reliable are these NOS caps? They've got to be pretty old. --Chuck From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Dec 11 02:15:59 2010 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 21:15:59 +1300 Subject: apple Lisa2. One working!! - one to go? References: Message-ID: <8692867EDFEB4A7B9AF94C1C5A6B5505@massey.ac.nz> Ok, an examination of the comments in the ROM H listing suggests that the Lisa 2/10 does look to see if the hard drive is connected and if not, then boots from the floppy drive. As the machine still gives an error number 57 on the I/O board when the widget is unplugged but the floppy drive plugged in, I deduce the fault is definitely is on the main I/O board somewhere. With the widget unplugged then I took some readings on the floppy drive card edge and compared those to the same on the working Lisa. There were some differences. Compared to the working machine.. PH0 does not show a brief 5V pulse on start up PH1 and PH2 remain at zero rather than pulsing briefly to 3.5 v or so every 4-5 seconds HDS is static at zero rather than at 4.5v and dropping to zero every 4-5 seconds DEN (ENBL) is 5v rather than zero WRD is 5v rather than zero PWM is 0 rather than 4v The WRD and the PH lines come off the IWM chip (Integrated WOZ machine). I found a few docs on this chip but I'll need to study them a little harder to try to understand how they work. Checking out the IMW chip, a clock signal is there and nothing on the input side is obviously amiss but then I would not recognise it if it was. The data and address lines are a combination of exotic looking waves. The same can be said of the data and address lines in the 6504a disk controller chip itself although A8 (pin 13) seemed to be a steady 3.8V rather than a wave. I checked quite a few of the other 71xxxx chips. They appear to be doing what they should on the straight signal. With a wave, it's hard to tell. I'm wondering if it is the IMW IC. Does this seem a strong suspect? I don't have a replacement for this unfortunately, but they are also in the Apple IIGS apparently, so not that uncommon. Terry From IanK at vulcan.com Sat Dec 11 02:54:16 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 00:54:16 -0800 Subject: Capacitors -- replacements? In-Reply-To: <4D02BE96.32573.2DCAED5@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4D0304CF.10904@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4D02BE96.32573.2DCAED5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: That's the punch line of "NOS" capacitors: if they are as old as the ones you're replacing, you're replacing crap with crap. Many folks have noted that caps sitting on the shelf aren't any better off than those sitting in a power supply. When I was rebuilding power supplies on our VAX-11s, I sought replacement units with as close physical dimensions as I could find. In one case, I had to use a Dremel tool to "oval out" the mounting holes to fit the new units. The PCB had plenty of plating to accommodate the new spacing, or this would not have been successful. YMMV. If the new caps are dramatically smaller than the originals and you are not seeking to perform historical restoration, perhaps consider caps with wire leads, crimp-fit lugs on the leads and screw/nut fasteners through the original PCB holes. I think the idea of hollowing out the original caps is "too much work to have fun." I'd far rather document for future generations (since I'm doing a historical restoration) why I "ovalled" the holes or otherwise mounted a capacitor of different dimensions -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis [cclist at sydex.com] Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 11:58 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Capacitors -- replacements? On 10 Dec 2010 at 21:57, ben wrote: > Check here off hand > > http://www.surplussales.com/Capacitors/Electrolytics/10000uF-300000u > > F.html Nothing exact, but some pretty close-enough stuff. How reliable are these NOS caps? They've got to be pretty old. --Chuck From pontus at Update.UU.SE Sat Dec 11 03:07:41 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 10:07:41 +0100 Subject: Happy DEC-10 everyone! In-Reply-To: <4D02ABA5.8070106@neurotica.com> References: <3DB0909E-FB6B-4A20-B789-8AA9F66AE858@lunar-tokyo.net> <4D029FF4.1090409@neurotica.com> <4D02ABA5.8070106@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20101211090740.GA6554@Update.UU.SE> > > Though thought of needing a spare part is what scares me. I doubt a > > KS10 is > > that much worse than my PDP-11/44, but the thought of needing spares scares > > me. > > I'm lucky to have a bunch of spares. But as I recall it's mostly TTL > anyway; not too tough to troubleshoot. A friend has a KS-10, the CPU itself isn't very scary, but the power supply is. A replacement for that might be tricky to find. - Pontus From pontus at Update.UU.SE Sat Dec 11 03:11:55 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 10:11:55 +0100 Subject: Happy DEC-10 everyone! In-Reply-To: References: <3DB0909E-FB6B-4A20-B789-8AA9F66AE858@lunar-tokyo.net> <4D029FF4.1090409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20101211091155.GB6554@Update.UU.SE> On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 05:37:33PM -0500, William Donzelli wrote: > > Though thought of needing a spare part is what scares me. ?I doubt a KS10 is > > that much worse than my PDP-11/44, but the thought of needing spares scares > > me. > > The problem with running a KS10 is that there is a very restrictive > list of disks and tapes it will play with. Didn't Ian and the guys at the Living Computer Museum (formerly PDPplanet) work on a massbuss "emulator" of sorts? That should be modifiable to work with the 18 bit KS-10 version? Or am I missing something? I'm unsure what happened with that project. - Pontus From ray at arachelian.com Sat Dec 11 08:16:16 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 09:16:16 -0500 Subject: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D0387B0.8080902@arachelian.com> On 12/10/2010 01:53 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I wonder if those metalised mylar emergency 'blankets' would work. > > The origianl plastic was much thicker and more rigid that either of these > alternatives, but that might not matter. But I wonder if something closer > to the original could be found to keep the thing nearer the original. I've used sheets of aluminum foil insulated with scotch tape on both sides (to prevent shorting and also to make them stiffer), then cut them out into rounds of the same size as the originals with scissors, and it worked just fine. You don't need to go out of your way to find materials for this. > Hmmm... I notice he won';t release the firmware source. I can fully > understnad why the sources for commercial products are often not > available, but my suspicious mind suggests that one reason why they > wouldn't be avaialble for soemthign like this is that the author is > aashamed of the code. In which case I am not sure I'd trust it. > Either that, or maybe he doesn't want someone manufacturing these en-masse and making money off his work? If someone had the source, they could build a full PS2 to Lisa keyboard converter and sell them? Which, IMHO, wouldn't be a bad thing these days considering how rare fully working Lisa parts are versus the proliferation of cheap, disposable pee cee keyboards. But there's certainly enough detail there to build such a thing from scratch, with or without that source if you had access to a Lisa and a keyboard. From ray at arachelian.com Sat Dec 11 08:23:43 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 09:23:43 -0500 Subject: apple Lisa2. One working!! - one to go? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D03896F.1050700@arachelian.com> On 12/10/2010 03:28 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Now that's interesting. The knob which I assume is the contrast (just below >> the brighness one) appears to do absolutelyt nothing? >> That's supposed to be horizontal hold or something, I've never used it either. In most cases if you have video issues, the pots on the video board are far more useful for corrections. > I don;t think it relates to a physical knob... There is a DAC on the I.O > board (see sheet 5 of the schemaitc I think) that is fed from the same > VIA port as the data lines to the Widget (the latter are buffered by a > '245 chip) -- I think the CIA and buffer are on sheet 2. I've not traced > the output of the DAC in detail, and some bits of schematic don't seem to > exist on the site I was looking at, like the backplane, but I thoguht the > schemaitc implied that DAC was some kind of software-controlled contrast > facility. > That's correct, the contrast is controlled via software. This allows the Lisa to dim it's display all the way down to off when it's not in use. Instead of just a hard off, it used to slowly dim its display down, so it wouldn't create a harsh surprise for the user. :-) The guys that designed this machine knew how to make it human friendly. I don't know of any other machine of that era that did this, or even had a software controlled power supply. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Dec 11 08:46:48 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 06:46:48 -0800 Subject: Capacitors -- replacements? In-Reply-To: <4D029369.19864.2340661@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4D027523.32363.1BDC56E@cclist.sydex.com>, , , <4D029369.19864.2340661@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Hi I have a couple of smaller Lambda bench supplies. They have a number of electrlytics in them but almost every one that is marked "Lambda Long Life" has failed. They are nice supplies so I keep fixing them. They seem to mostly go dry as yours has rather than going short. I'd rather this as it save solid state parts around them. As long as you aren't expecting 100% capacitance and supper low ESR, the ones they have seem fine. I had one failing in a Poly88 chassis. I replaced it with one of the units they had and it has been working fine ever since. I think most of theirs were made in the 90's so there not all that old. Dwight > From: cclist at sydex.com > > On 10 Dec 2010 at 20:44, dwight elvey wrote: > > > > > Hi > > What demensions is it? There is a surplus place > > near here that often has screw mount type caps > > ( NOS ). also look for any caps that say they are long > > life electrolytics. These will also be bad. > > Hi Dwight, > > Funny you should mention that--the cap in question is indeed labeled > "Long Life". It's about 3" H x 2" in diameter. > > --Chuck > From ray at arachelian.com Sat Dec 11 09:00:47 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 10:00:47 -0500 Subject: apple Lisa2. One working!! - one to go? In-Reply-To: <8692867EDFEB4A7B9AF94C1C5A6B5505@massey.ac.nz> References: <8692867EDFEB4A7B9AF94C1C5A6B5505@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: <4D03921F.8000001@arachelian.com> On 12/11/2010 03:15 AM, terry stewart wrote: > Ok, an examination of the comments in the ROM H listing suggests that > the Lisa 2/10 does look to see if the hard drive is connected and if > not, then boots from the floppy drive. As the machine still gives an > error number 57 on the I/O board when the widget is unplugged but the > floppy drive plugged in, I deduce the fault is definitely is on the > main I/O board somewhere. > > With the widget unplugged then I took some readings on the floppy > drive card edge and compared those to the same on the working Lisa. > There were some differences. Compared to the working machine.. > > PH0 does not show a brief 5V pulse on start up > PH1 and PH2 remain at zero rather than pulsing briefly to 3.5 v or so > every 4-5 seconds > HDS is static at zero rather than at 4.5v and dropping to zero every > 4-5 seconds > DEN (ENBL) is 5v rather than zero > WRD is 5v rather than zero > PWM is 0 rather than 4v > > The WRD and the PH lines come off the IWM chip (Integrated WOZ > machine). I found a few docs on this chip but I'll need to study them > a little harder to try to understand how they work. Checking out the > IMW chip, a clock signal is there and nothing on the input side is > obviously amiss but then I would not recognise it if it was. The data > and address lines are a combination of exotic looking waves. The same > can be said of the data and address lines in the 6504a disk controller > chip itself although A8 (pin 13) seemed to be a steady 3.8V rather > than a wave. > > I checked quite a few of the other 71xxxx chips. They appear to be > doing what they should on the straight signal. With a wave, it's hard > to tell. > > I'm wondering if it is the IMW IC. Does this seem a strong suspect? > I don't have a replacement for this unfortunately, but they are also > in the Apple IIGS apparently, so not that uncommon. But if you had a working IIGS would you sacrifice its IWM? :-) I know you've said you're sure the I/O ROM says E8, does the sticker on the I/O board confirm this? It's very suspect to me. Also can you confirm that the floppy drive in that Lisa is a standard sony 400K one? If you take it apart, do you see only one head, and the top part of the clamp has a bit of foam? If that ROM is ok, it might well be the 800K ROM from SunRem. I'm guessing that it's either that, or it's corrupt. If either of those cases is wrong, well, you might have a new ROM that wasn't unreleased. Again, you're getting error 57, which is a timeout of the controller's self test, or a bus error during an attempt to access the controller. This has nothing to do with access to the floppy drive, but everything to do with the power on self test that 68000 does to check the 6504 is working. Unless the IWM caused the 6504 to crash, it shouldn't cause a bus error or timeout when the 68000 tries to get status from the 6504. If on poweron the 6504 is fully functional, it does a self test also. Then, it writes the results into the shared floppy RAM, and the 68000 reads this status. Unfortunately, in all cases, you get the same error 57. It might be a timeout, bus error, or an internal 6504 failure, or a RAM failure. The only clue we have is the oddball I/O ROM version. Please, check the sticker on the I/O ROM. If it says 88 on the label, either the EPROM went bad, or the I/O RAM is bad, or something went wrong that prevented the 6504 from reporting its version to the 68000. Does the sticker say E8 on it? Is there an Apple symbol on the sticker? Here's what the code looks like, all roads lead to 57 (EDISK) unfortunately, so we can't pinpoint exactly what went wrong. If you have a logic analyzer with the ability to analyze running 68000 code, and can catch the POST ROM going through this code, you might be able to see where it dies. Perhaps if you can enter Service Mode, you could look at 02AE which is a copy of the result of the 6504's self test. If this is non-zero, it's what reported the error. 02A1 is a copy of the ROM version, which should contain E8. If you can jump into the diag ROM at 00fe1136, it should attempt to see if it can talk to the floppy controller, if you get an error 57 immediately after this (the Lisa might crash without throwing an error, since your're jumping into POST code from service mode) then it's a timeout. 110C| ;---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 110C| ; Test of disk interface - ensure R/W capability to shared RAM, then 110C| ; try disable interrupts command. This test will also verify 110C| ; the results of the disk controller's own self-test (ROM and RAM test). 110C| ;---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 110C| 110C| DSKTST 110C| .IF DIAGS = 1 110C| 110C| 47FA 0078 LEA DSKVCT,A3 ;set up vector in case of bus timeout 1110| 21CB 0008 MOVE.L A3,BUSVCTR 1114| 207C 00FC C001 MOVE.L #DISKMEM,A0 ;set ptr for shared memory 111A| 111A| ; Display ROM id CHG001 111A| 111A| 7A03 MOVEQ #ROMIDROW,D5 ;set cursor ptrs CHG001 111C| 3C3C 0051 MOVE #ROMIDCOL+1,D6 ; CHG001 1120| 702F MOVEQ #'/',D0 ;preceed with / char CHG001 1122| 6100 2616 BSR DSPVAL ;display it CHG001 1126| 1028 0030 MOVE.B ROMV(A0),D0 ;read id CHG001 112A| 11C0 02A1 MOVE.B D0,IOROM ;save in low memory CHG010 112E| 7202 MOVEQ #2,D1 ; CHG001 1130| 6100 0546 BSR OUTCH ; CHG001 1134| 1134| ; Read system type CHG009 1134| 1134| 6162 BSR.S SETTYPE ;determine system type CHG029 1136| 1136| ; Check disk alive indicator 1136| 1136| 4282 CLR.L D2 ;clear for use CHG022 1138| 227C 00FC D901 MOVE.L #VIA2BASE,A1 ;set ptr to parallel port 6522 113E| 0229 00BF 0010 ANDI.B #$BF,DDRB2(A1) ;ensure bit 6 is input 1144| 203C 001C 8000 MOVE.L #DSKTMOUT,D0 ;set up timeout count for 15 secs 114A| 0811 0006 @2 BTST #DSKDIAG,IRB2(A1) ;check indicator 114E| 6606 BNE.S @3 ;skip if set 1150| 5380 SUBQ.L #1,D0 ;else loop until timeout (about 8 us per loop) 1152| 66F6 BNE.S @2 1154| 7439 MOVEQ #EDISK,D2 ;error if not set CHG022 1156| 1156| ; Try read operation and check results of self-test 1156| 1156| @3 1156| .IF DIAGS = 1 1156| 11E8 0016 02AE MOVE.B STST(A0),DSKRSLT ;get results of disk self-test CHG022 115C| 6616 BNE.S INTERR ;exit if error CHG022 115E| 115E| 4A02 @4 TST.B D2 ;previous error? CHG022 1160| 6612 BNE.S INTERR ;exit if yes CHG022 1162| 1162| ; Then try simple write operation to shared RAM 1162| 1162| 7055 MOVEQ #$55,D0 ;set up pattern RM000 1164| 1140 0002 MOVE.B D0,CMD(A0) ;try write 1168| B028 0002 CMP.B CMD(A0),D0 ;verify 116C| 6606 BNE.S INTERR ;exit if error 116E| 116E| ; Finally try a command to disable interrupts 116E| 116E| 6100 0BD6 BSR DSABLDSK ;go issue disable cmd 1172| 640C BCC.S DSKXIT ;skip if OK 1174| .ELSE 1174| .ENDC 1174| 1174| 08C7 0011 INTERR BSET #DISK,D7 ;else set disk error 1178| 4A87 TST.L D7 ;restart if in loop mode 117A| 6B90 BMI.S DSKTST 117C| 6000 021C BRA TSTCHK ;and abort further testing If you suspect that no keyboard isn't working, and your 6522's and the COP421 chips are all socketed, feel free to swap them around, or swap them from the other Lisa. 6522's are very common. Western Design Center may even sell new ones. see: http://www.westerndesigncenter.com/wdc/AN-004_W65C22S_Replacements.cfm and find the right version. Take extra care with the COP421 chip! COP421's are unique to the Lisa and can only be found on Lisa I/O boards. (COP421's from anything other than a Lisa will not work since these are microcontrollers with a bit of EPROM built in and burned in for Lisas, so only those coming from a Lisa can be used.) The COP421 handles keyboard, mouse, and the real time clock. The year on the clock has only a 15 year span. So Lisas never had a Y2K problem. :-) Their clock range expired long before 2000, I forget the exact limit, but it's probably 1994 or 1995. One of the VIA 6522s handles the keyboard (and volume + sound control), the other the parallel port (contrast + widget). Swapping the two VIA's around on the same I/O board is helpful in determining if a VIA is bad. If both VIA's are good a known working keyboard doesn't work with your 2/10, this is what you'd check on the I/O board. The Lisa actually has 3 CPU's. A 68000, a 6504, a COP421, and in the first prototypes, they also had a COP421 in the keyboard. These were later replaced with an intel chip. The Lisa 2's (not 2/10's) also had a socket for an FPU. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 11 10:31:51 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 08:31:51 -0800 Subject: Capacitors -- replacements? In-Reply-To: References: , <4D02BE96.32573.2DCAED5@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4D0336F7.26662.1615A0@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Dec 2010 at 0:54, Ian King wrote: > That's the punch line of "NOS" capacitors: if they are as old as the > ones you're replacing, you're replacing crap with crap. Many folks > have noted that caps sitting on the shelf aren't any better off than > those sitting in a power supply. That's what I suspected. I like your idea of crimping a couple of lugs on on a radial lead modern electrolytic. Fortunately, the rest of the capacitors that have bit the dust are axial-lead jobs and not much of a bother to replace. I wonder if modern capacitors are better than the old ones in this respect. After all, they've been engineered to withstand use in switching power supplies, so working with a 120Hz ripple should be pretty easy. I'm with Dwight on the Lambdas being well-built supplies. Huge heatsinks on this thing, given its ratings. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 11 10:44:25 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 09:44:25 -0700 Subject: Capacitors -- replacements? In-Reply-To: <4D02BE96.32573.2DCAED5@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4D0304CF.10904@jetnet.ab.ca> <4D02BE96.32573.2DCAED5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D03AA69.3030502@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/11/2010 12:58 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Nothing exact, but some pretty close-enough stuff. > > How reliable are these NOS caps? They've got to be pretty old. They may have to be re-formed, but I suspect they would not be dried out.This gets you cap, that may have screw on terminals rather than a PCB type mounting , which is what I suspect is used with this power supply. > --Chuck Ben. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Dec 11 11:50:17 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 12:50:17 -0500 Subject: Capacitors -- replacements? In-Reply-To: References: <4D0304CF.10904@jetnet.ab.ca> <4D02BE96.32573.2DCAED5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > That's the punch line of "NOS" capacitors: if they are as old as the ones you're replacing, you're replacing crap with crap. ?Many folks have noted that caps sitting on the shelf aren't any better off than those sitting in a power supply. I would not damn NOS caps quite so fast. Capacitor technology really improved in the 1960s, so the caps of the 1970s and especially 80s and 90s are really quite good. With NOS caps, I think it all boils down to two things. One is the age, being made sometime post-1970, after the cap makers really got their act together. The other, and probably more important, is where the caps came from. Storage conditions matter quite a lot. I suspect that a huge share of electrolytic capacitor failures we see are not due to whole improper/impossible reformation process, but rather by the seals going bad and contaminants getting in. Thus, getting NOS parts from a surplus dealer that keeps half of his stock in non-climate control building is probably not a good place to get the caps. Every year, the temperature cycles from freezing to baking, and humidity might swing nearly 100 percent. Clearly, swings like these are not good for any seal - electrolytic capacitors or your Great Aunt's jars of tomato jelly. My advice is to use caution when getting NOS capacitors - research the source, ask about date codes, and when you get them, inspect them, margin test them, them burn them in. -- Will From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Dec 11 13:11:49 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 11:11:49 -0800 Subject: Unknown TI logic series In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6fa8eb99c481bc0ffdfab16c9d693623@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Dec 10, at 2:36 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > > we've had a look inside our IME 122 calculator and discovered that it > is full of SN14xx logic ICs. They are mainly from TI, but there are > also some from Motorola and others. It seems that they have the same > function and pinout as the SN74xx parts but there must be a difference > since the machine has quite a lot of SN1401 (the SN7401 is a quad > open-collector NAND), but there are no pullup resistors anywhere! > Some of the types are SN1400, SN1401, SN1474, SN1490; the ALU is made > up > of SN1482 and SN1483. > Anyone knows this series? BTW the supply voltage is 5V. I can't find a reference for those numbers, and I haven't seen them before, however I have seen TI inexplicably producing series identical or similar to more-common series, but numbered differently. For example, the SN3900 and SN4500 series are very similar to more-common DTL series such as the 700/800/900 series, but I have never seen a reference for the 3900 or 4500 series in TI databooks. One suggestion might be they were a 'consumer-grade' series, a step below the standard commercial-grade stuff. Found your museum's page here: http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev_en/ime_122/ index.html Is PHxxxx a Philips or Siemens number? Just some suggestions regarding the 1401 outputs and load resistors: - make in-circuit measurements between the gate output and Vcc, but with both polarities on the meter leads. This will sometimes indicate whether there is a resistive element vs. measuring the semiconductor junctions. - look for an unused gate on which to measure R of the output. - perhaps a bit of poor design and/or they were being used at a slow enough speed they didn't need pull-ups. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Dec 11 13:31:04 2010 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 08:31:04 +1300 Subject: apple Lisa2. One working!! - one to go? References: <8692867EDFEB4A7B9AF94C1C5A6B5505@massey.ac.nz> <4D03921F.8000001@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4E538D386A8D4E5BB584C310E8019B84@massey.ac.nz> Hi Ray, Thanks for commenting, > But if you had a working IIGS would you sacrifice its IWM? :-) Of course you wouldn't (-: Luckily places like arcadecomponents.com do have such things for sale. Unfortunately they don't have Lisa ROMS > I know you've said you're sure the I/O ROM says E8, does the sticker on > the I/O board confirm this? It's very suspect to me. No I corrected myself in a later post. It's actually H/EA which is maybe even wierder! Consider I'm in New Zealand though, and I've noticed sometimes our components can be slightly different (maybe due to 240v?). > Also can you confirm that the floppy drive in that Lisa is a standard > sony 400K one? If you take it apart, do you see only one head, and the > top part of the clamp has a bit of foam? Yes, it's definitely 400k. > If that ROM is ok, it might well be the 800K ROM from SunRem. I'm > guessing that it's either that, or it's corrupt. Well, it could be either of those I guess, but it definitely is an Apple ROM. I've searched hard but haven't found what version the 800k ROM uses. Did Apple themselves ever bring a 800k one out? > If either of those > cases is wrong, well, you might have a new ROM that wasn't unreleased. > Again, you're getting error 57, which is a timeout of the controller's > self test, or a bus error during an attempt to access the controller. > This has nothing to do with access to the floppy drive, but everything > to do with the power on self test that 68000 does to check the 6504 is > working. Yes, that's what I suspected. > > Unless the IWM caused the 6504 to crash, it shouldn't cause a bus error > or timeout when the 68000 tries to get status from the 6504. If on > poweron the 6504 is fully functional, it does a self test also. Then, > it writes the results into the shared floppy RAM, and the 68000 reads > this status. Unfortunately, in all cases, you get the same error 57. > It might be a timeout, bus error, or an internal 6504 failure, or a RAM > failure. > > The only clue we have is the oddball I/O ROM version. Please, check the > sticker on the I/O ROM. If it says 88 on the label, either the EPROM > went bad, or the I/O RAM is bad, or something went wrong that prevented > the 6504 from reporting its version to the 68000. Does the sticker say > E8 on it? Is there an Apple symbol on the sticker? I'm sure it's a genuine Apple ROM. It has the same type of sticker than the ROMS in the other machines (layout and font) and it's got a part number 341-0281-D plus a genuine Apple 84 trademark notice. I believe the usual ROM is 314-0241-D. The H/EA is reported on the screen during the self-tests. It's not on the sticker. > Here's what the code looks like, all roads lead to 57 (EDISK) > unfortunately, so we can't pinpoint exactly what went wrong. If you > have a logic analyzer with the ability to analyze running 68000 code, > and can catch the POST ROM going through this code, you might be able to > see where it dies. No I don't have one of those or indeed the knowledge to drive it. > Perhaps if you can enter Service Mode, you could look at 02AE which is a > copy of the result of the 6504's self test. If this is non-zero, it's > what reported the error. 02A1 is a copy of the ROM version, which > should contain E8. No I can't enter the service mode. My keyboard (actually all three keyboards) seem non-responsive in this respect. >From what you've written Ray, I'm starting to think this repair might be a bridge too far for me. I might have gone as far as I can. The options might be to shelve it and wait until I can either source an IWM, a replacement ROM, (or even a new board) from somewhere else. Not that they come up that often (-: At least I have a Lisa 2 that at least tries to access a disk so there is hope I can get one of these units fully working. It would have been nice to have the one with the widget on-line though. Anyway, the feedback is appreciated. Terry From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 11 14:14:34 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 20:14:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Capacitors -- replacements? In-Reply-To: <4D027523.32363.1BDC56E@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 10, 10 06:44:51 pm Message-ID: > > > List, > > I've got a lovely old Lambda power supply here (linear +/-15, +/-5) > that uses an old Sprague screw-mount (Computerlytic) capacitor. It's > rated at 34000uF, 15WVDC. It's all dried out, so it needs > replacement. > > It looks as if it's going to be difficult to find a working exact > replacement. > > What in your experience works best in these applications? Plain old > "snap in" electrolytics? Anyone have any hints on making the > replacement fit the larger footprint? As you know, you should get aworking voltage at least as high as the orignial (but some say that runnign an electrolytic way beolw its rated voltage will shorten the life), and about the same value. For a 34000uF, I would thinkthat 33000uF would be fine (these are not close-tolerance), or 47000 uF. Some of the vitage radio crowd open up the old electrolyitic can, extrac the guts and replace them with the modern replacementment capacitors. I susepct, though that your can is too small to do this (it's not old enough to me much larger than the modern caps.). But you might be able to make use of the plastic moulding/terminals. Once when I needed a screw-terminal electrolytic, I soldered suitable nuts ot the termianls of a PCB-mount ('snap in') part and then fixed it in place with the original terminal screws. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 11 13:54:54 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 19:54:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Happy DEC-10 everyone! In-Reply-To: <3DB0909E-FB6B-4A20-B789-8AA9F66AE858@lunar-tokyo.net> from "Daniel Seagraves" at Dec 10, 10 02:34:57 pm Message-ID: > Geez, if he thinks a guy win an 11 is mad, I wonder where that puts me... -_- I don;t think he thought I was mad _because_ I owned a PDP11. He described me as 'mad' because, well, how many sane people read service manuals as 'light bedtime reading'. [Surely nobody here thinks I'm sane, do they???] -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 11 15:29:06 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 21:29:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: apple Lisa2. One working!! - one to go? In-Reply-To: <8692867EDFEB4A7B9AF94C1C5A6B5505@massey.ac.nz> from "terry stewart" at Dec 11, 10 09:15:59 pm Message-ID: > > Ok, an examination of the comments in the ROM H listing suggests that the > Lisa 2/10 does look to see if the hard drive is connected and if not, then > boots from the floppy drive. As the machine still gives an error number 57 > on the I/O board when the widget is unplugged but the floppy drive plugged > in, I deduce the fault is definitely is on the main I/O board somewhere. > > With the widget unplugged then I took some readings on the floppy drive card > edge and compared those to the same on the working Lisa. There were some > differences. Compared to the working machine.. > > PH0 does not show a brief 5V pulse on start up > PH1 and PH2 remain at zero rather than pulsing briefly to 3.5 v or so every > 4-5 seconds > HDS is static at zero rather than at 4.5v and dropping to zero every 4-5 > seconds > DEN (ENBL) is 5v rather than zero > WRD is 5v rather than zero > PWM is 0 rather than 4v In other words the drive probably isn't being electroncially accessed (r.g. to check if there's a disk inserted). Now, from what another poster was saying, one of the errors you got means that the 6800 can't access the disk cotnroller RAM (shared with the 6504). I wonder if that 6504 is hackign up for some reason. Either because it's waiting for an I/O device to do something (which could mean a fault in the IWM chip), or becuase it's firmware is corrupted and thus the 6504 is going crazy. Now, you mention that the ROM version is not what you'd expect. I assuem this ROM versions is displayed on the CRT -- that is it somehow involves reading the ROM. If the ROM was corrupted, then it moight report the wrong version. Using your logic probe, check the address and (especially) the data lines on that. Are any stuck high or low? Is there any way you can get a dump of a known-good disk cotroller ROM? If so, eitehr burn it into an EPROM and replace your firmware ROM, or compare it with a dump of your ROM. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 11 15:33:46 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 21:33:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? In-Reply-To: <4D0387B0.8080902@arachelian.com> from "Ray Arachelian" at Dec 11, 10 09:16:16 am Message-ID: [Lisa keyboard tester] > > Hmmm... I notice he won';t release the firmware source. I can fully > > understnad why the sources for commercial products are often not > > available, but my suspicious mind suggests that one reason why they > > wouldn't be avaialble for soemthign like this is that the author is > > aashamed of the code. In which case I am not sure I'd trust it. > > > > Either that, or maybe he doesn't want someone manufacturing these > en-masse and making money off his work? If someone had the source, they Yes, but he does have the binary file aviaalble to download, which is all you need to reproduce the device. > could build a full PS2 to Lisa keyboard converter and sell them? My experience of releasing source code for classic computer-related things is that the market is so small that nobody is going to make them commerically anyway. And I would much rathers others could see the sources, make changes, improve it, make other simialr devivces, etc. > > Which, IMHO, wouldn't be a bad thing these days considering how rare > fully working Lisa parts are versus the proliferation of cheap, > disposable pee cee keyboards. > But there's certainly enough detail there to build such a thing from > scratch, with or without that source if you had access to a Lisa and a > keyboard. Indeed.. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 11 15:37:28 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 21:37:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: apple Lisa2. One working!! - one to go? In-Reply-To: <4D03896F.1050700@arachelian.com> from "Ray Arachelian" at Dec 11, 10 09:23:43 am Message-ID: > The guys that designed this machine knew how to make it human friendly. > I don't know of any other machine of that era that did this, or even had > a software controlled power supply. THe PERQ 1/1a have software-controlled power swithces. You turn them off by a suitable OS command which flushes the disk buffers (if necesary), parks the hard disk heads, and then turns off the machine. These machines pre-date the Lisa. Probably a bit later, but the Torch XXX and Whitechapen MG1 have software controlled power siwches too. In the case of the former you touch the power swithc (atually touch contacts) on the front of the case, it sends an interrupt to the servcice processaor which tells the main 68K to flush the buffers and then turns the machine off. The MG1, I think, is similar to the PERQ i nthat you shut it down with an OS command. -tony From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Dec 11 16:06:57 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 20:06:57 -0200 Subject: Releasing sources/schematics. Was: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? References: Message-ID: <35EC3E2ECBC644C3BA355CBA51A390FA@portajara> Tony Duell, the master of HP, said: > My experience of releasing source code for classic computer-related > things is that the market is so small that nobody is going to make them > commerically anyway. And I would much rathers others could see the > sources, make changes, improve it, make other simialr devivces, etc. I have a thinking about this: - Release everything and sell the product. Because who KNOWS how to do, will do it with or without the sources. Who DOESN'T KNOW how to do, will not do even with the sources. It always worked for me. --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Dec 11 16:16:09 2010 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 11:16:09 +1300 Subject: apple Lisa2. One working!! - one to go? References: Message-ID: <6EF195304C9B4396A3D1D9F1743DF51B@massey.ac.nz> > > Now, you mention that the ROM version is not what you'd expect. I assuem > this ROM versions is displayed on the CRT -- that is it somehow involves > reading the ROM. If the ROM was corrupted, then it moight report the > wrong version. Yes, that did cross my mind too Tony. But the serial number on the ROM doesn't correspond exactly to the serial number I've seen on the web for an H/88 ROM chip so ...who knows. It's certainly a possibility though. > Using your logic probe, check the address and (especially) the data lines > on that. Are any stuck high or low? Well, A9 does seem to be at a steady voltage of about 4V whereas all the other address lines are a wave. This is suspicious. I'll measure it again just to make sure. > Is there any way you can get a dump of a known-good disk cotroller ROM? > If so, eitehr burn it into an EPROM and replace your firmware ROM, or > compare it with a dump of your ROM. Not currently. There may be a ROM dump out there someone. I haven't looked hard yet. I have bought an EPROM burner but haven't used it yet. It might allow me to compare or at least view the code. Bear in mind this is still a steep learning curve for me. I'm not sure these modern EPROM burners can read or burn the equivalent of old ROMS like this without some hardware mods along with it, but I can investigate. It seems that most of the evidence so far, does point to the ROM, although not exclusively. Terry From brain at jbrain.com Sat Dec 11 16:38:30 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 16:38:30 -0600 Subject: Releasing sources/schematics. Was: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? In-Reply-To: <35EC3E2ECBC644C3BA355CBA51A390FA@portajara> References: <35EC3E2ECBC644C3BA355CBA51A390FA@portajara> Message-ID: <4D03FD66.70703@jbrain.com> On 12/11/2010 4:06 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > Tony Duell, the master of HP, said: > >> My experience of releasing source code for classic computer-related >> things is that the market is so small that nobody is going to make them >> commerically anyway. And I would much rathers others could see the >> sources, make changes, improve it, make other simialr devivces, etc. > > I have a thinking about this: > > - Release everything and sell the product. Because who KNOWS how to > do, will do it with or without the sources. Who DOESN'T KNOW how to > do, will not do even with the sources. > > It always worked for me. > > --- > Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 I think you and Tony are in vehemently agreement. I will attest it works splendidly in this type of market: * Pricing a product competitively guarantees people won't bother building it. * The size of the market dissuades competitors * If something should happen to your business, another one can pull the source, and create more for interested individuals. No orphanware or other issues to worry about. * People are more interested in funding improvements to the device via "Kickstarter"-like programs when it's freely released. On that last item, though not terribly high on the list of improvements to the sd2iec firmware, enough folks wanted GEOS support to pledge over $1000.00 to CommodoreBounty for support. It was finished a month back. I doubt they would have done so if the source would have been locked away after the funds were paid. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com www.jbrain.net (eStore) From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Dec 11 17:37:10 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 15:37:10 -0800 Subject: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? In-Reply-To: <4D0387B0.8080902@arachelian.com> Message-ID: On 12/11/10 6:16 AM, "Ray Arachelian" wrote: > Either that, or maybe he doesn't want someone manufacturing these > en-masse and making money off his work? If someone had the source, they > could build a full PS2 to Lisa keyboard converter and sell them? > > Which, IMHO, wouldn't be a bad thing these days considering how rare > fully working Lisa parts are versus the proliferation of cheap, > disposable pee cee keyboards. > But there's certainly enough detail there to build such a thing from > scratch, with or without that source if you had access to a Lisa and a > keyboard. That is why I have really come to love the Atari community, most of the hardware upgrades are "open source" they make the schematics and at minimum the jedec or binary files available, many provide the source that you can compile or edit yourself. From legalize at xmission.com Sat Dec 11 19:43:36 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 18:43:36 -0700 Subject: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <4D02AE4E.205@brouhaha.com> References: <4D00109D.6010103@bitsavers.org> <4D01A403.5020301@mail.msu.edu> <4D01B6B9.5060405@brouhaha.com> <4D01B8F2.3050400@mail.msu.edu> <4D02AE4E.205@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: In article <4D02AE4E.205 at brouhaha.com>, Eric Smith writes: > Richard wrote: > > Seems like a good application of Amazon's "mechanical turk" web > > service, if you're willing to pay a small bounty for someone else to > > transcribe the PDFs. If you were to use Amazon's service, I'd split > > the PDF files into smaller files containing 5 pages each and submit > > those as the unit of work to the service. > Same problem as OCR. You'd spend more time cleaning up the results than > it would take to type it in yourself. No, you just reject work items that have errors. You stipulate in the work item that the item is rejected if transcriptions contain errors. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Dec 11 20:02:59 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 18:02:59 -0800 Subject: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: References: <4D00109D.6010103@bitsavers.org> <4D01A403.5020301@mail.msu.edu> <4D01B6B9.5060405@brouhaha.com> <4D01B8F2.3050400@mail.msu.edu> <4D02AE4E.205@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4D042D53.1090507@brouhaha.com> On 12/11/2010 05:43 PM, Richard wrote: > No, you just reject work items that have errors. You stipulate in the > work item that the item is rejected if transcriptions contain errors. And how are you going to tell whether there are errors, without spending a bunch of time proofreading it? From legalize at xmission.com Sun Dec 12 01:57:31 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 00:57:31 -0700 Subject: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <4D042D53.1090507@brouhaha.com> References: <4D00109D.6010103@bitsavers.org> <4D01A403.5020301@mail.msu.edu> <4D01B6B9.5060405@brouhaha.com> <4D01B8F2.3050400@mail.msu.edu> <4D02AE4E.205@brouhaha.com> <4D042D53.1090507@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: In article <4D042D53.1090507 at brouhaha.com>, Eric Smith writes: > On 12/11/2010 05:43 PM, Richard wrote: > > No, you just reject work items that have errors. You stipulate in the > > work item that the item is rejected if transcriptions contain errors. > And how are you going to tell whether there are errors, without spending > a bunch of time proofreading it? As I've already said, you do an experiment by issuing work items at various price points to determine how much you need to pay in order to get reliable quality. So far, there isn't any way that people can be made to do perfect work that contains no errors. The same is true if we get a bunch of volunteers from this list to do the work, or a single person from this list does all the work themselves, or a bunch of people are paid to do the work via mechanical turk. Using mechanical turk doesn't bring about utopia. It just means that we pay someone else to do most of the drudgery instead of doing it ourselves. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Dec 12 03:14:45 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 01:14:45 -0800 Subject: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: References: <4D00109D.6010103@bitsavers.org> <4D01A403.5020301@mail.msu.edu> <4D01B6B9.5060405@brouhaha.com> <4D01B8F2.3050400@mail.msu.edu> <4D02AE4E.205@brouhaha.com> <4D042D53.1090507@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4D049285.10007@brouhaha.com> Richard wrote: > As I've already said, you do an experiment by issuing work items at > various price points to determine how much you need to pay in order to > get reliable quality. I can get on average significantly less than one character in error per page, *including* the line number, address, object code, source statement, and comments. I'd be willing to wager that using "unskilled" labor (people not familiar with the assembly language in question) will not be able to do it with fewer than five errors per page no matter how much you offer, since they won't even be able to tell what constitutes an error when the source material is a poor-quality reproduction from microfilm or a bad photocopy. Sometimes it is difficult even with a good copy! > So far, there isn't any way that people can be made to do perfect work > that contains no errors. I never claimed otherwise. > Using mechanical turk doesn't bring about utopia. It just means that > we pay someone else to do most of the drudgery instead of doing it > ourselves. It is *more* drudgery to correct someone else's errors doing this than to type it myself. Speaking from experience, dealing with data entered *and* proofread by supposedly skilled data entry operators. I would be absolutely delighted if someone could prove me wrong. Eric From legalize at xmission.com Sun Dec 12 04:13:27 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 03:13:27 -0700 Subject: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <4D049285.10007@brouhaha.com> References: <4D00109D.6010103@bitsavers.org> <4D01A403.5020301@mail.msu.edu> <4D01B6B9.5060405@brouhaha.com> <4D01B8F2.3050400@mail.msu.edu> <4D02AE4E.205@brouhaha.com> <4D042D53.1090507@brouhaha.com> <4D049285.10007@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: In article <4D049285.10007 at brouhaha.com>, Eric Smith writes: > I can get on average significantly less than one character in error per > page, *including* the line number, address, object code, source > statement, and comments. Fine, you do it all then. Let us know when you're done. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Dec 12 05:55:16 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 11:55:16 -0000 Subject: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <4D049285.10007@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: Eric Smith [eric at brouhaha.com] wrote: > > I would be absolutely delighted if someone could prove me wrong. Don't the various "open" proofing projects work by farmning out any given piece of work N times and finding the "correct" work by comparing (electronically, I presume)? This obviously costs N times the original price. In this particular case there's a further check in that you can attempt to convert the final listing to a compilable form and see whether it can actually compile. Antonio From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Dec 12 07:30:09 2010 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 08:30:09 -0500 Subject: S-100 and N8VEM pages Message-ID: <60351A37AA7144D8A18220D2DBC510BB@andrewdesktop> Hi! Here are some links which may be useful to classic computer hobbyists. There is an announcements mailing list for S100computers.com and N8VEM S-100 boards http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem-s100 For those into social media, there exists "S-100 bus" page that you can "like" on facebook. http://www.facebook.com/pages/S-100-bus#!/pages/S-100-bus/132841730088337 There is also a newly created N8VEM page. http://www.facebook.com/pages/Homebrew-Computing-Project-N8VEM/1740728892846 08 Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Dec 12 09:26:29 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 15:26:29 +0000 Subject: AT&T 3B1 / 7300 / UNIX PC DMA Data LSI schematic Message-ID: <1292167589.3595.4.camel@ryoko> Hi guys, I'm trying to track down a copy of the schematics (if any still exist) for the DMA Data LSI used in the AT&T Unix PC (aka the AT&T 3B1 or AT&T 7300). The Technical Reference Manual scans which were posted here earlier include the DMA Address LSI, but not the DMA Data LSI. Unfortunately about 80% of the DMA logic is in.... *drumroll*... the Data LSI. The Address LSI is basically a glorified presettable up-counter. These should be in the AT&T UNIX PC Technical Reference Manual, if anyone has a copy kicking around. I already have the DMA Address LSI, Video LSI, 512k Motherboard, 1MB Motherboard and 2MB Motherboard schematics. Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 12 12:43:00 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 18:43:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Releasing sources/schematics. Was: apple Lisa2. Any advice on In-Reply-To: <35EC3E2ECBC644C3BA355CBA51A390FA@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Dec 11, 10 08:06:57 pm Message-ID: > > > Tony Duell, the master of HP, said: > > > My experience of releasing source code for classic computer-related > > things is that the market is so small that nobody is going to make them > > commerically anyway. And I would much rathers others could see the > > sources, make changes, improve it, make other simialr devivces, etc. > > I have a thinking about this: > > - Release everything and sell the product. Because who KNOWS how to do, > will do it with or without the sources. Who DOESN'T KNOW how to do, will not > do even with the sources. > > It always worked for me. That's what I do, and always have. I know there are plenty of people who can improce on what I've done. Who would do it differently, Who would want to make changes. To which I have only one word -- GREAT! If what I've done helps somebody else to do something they want/need to do, then that's how we progress. I can think of one time in particularly where an enthusiast will not release the sources for his program (which, due ot the hardware it runs on is useless to me in its current form), and which has hindered me as a result. Oh well... If/when I get roudn to producign my own version I will release my sources... I am alos pretty sure that the market for add-ons, test units, etc for classic computers is so samll that nobody is going to try to make them commrcailly. Just about the only thing I object to is somebody basing theie design on a large part of my work and not acknowledging it. As regaurds the 'will do it even without the source), I agree. It reminds me a od a comment I make when manufactueres will not sell me service manuals or spare parts. Namely "I'll fix that darn thing without the manual. I'll make the parts from scratch if need be. But I also know what manufactuter to not recomend in the future and who not to buy from again". I am likely to be less free with advice (on anything) to people who don't release sources. One final comment. You may come across things I wrote years ago with comments like 'This is not Public Domain, it is released for the benefit of PERQ fanantics...'. It is _not_ leagally public domain, I will not totally give up the copyright (for good reasons)., But I will take a very wide definiton of 'PERQ fanatic' or whatever. If it helps you write a PERQ emulator, or archive some PERQ disks, or.. then you're a PREQ-fanatic. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 12 12:52:54 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 18:52:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: apple Lisa2. One working!! - one to go? In-Reply-To: <6EF195304C9B4396A3D1D9F1743DF51B@massey.ac.nz> from "terry stewart" at Dec 12, 10 11:16:09 am Message-ID: > > Now, you mention that the ROM version is not what you'd expect. I assuem > > this ROM versions is displayed on the CRT -- that is it somehow involves > > reading the ROM. If the ROM was corrupted, then it moight report the > > wrong version. > > Yes, that did cross my mind too Tony. But the serial number on the ROM > doesn't correspond exactly to the serial number I've seen on the web for an > H/88 ROM chip so ...who knows. It's certainly a possibility though. > > > Using your logic probe, check the address and (especially) the data lines > > on that. Are any stuck high or low? > > Well, A9 does seem to be at a steady voltage of about 4V whereas all the > other address lines are a wave. This is suspicious. I'll measure it again > just to make sure. May be a problem, may not. 4V is a TTL high, of course, but it's not a short to the 5V line (well, if the 5V line reads 4V, you have other problems :-)). It's entirely possible that the code is running from an area of ROM where A9 is always high, and accessing memory/I/O devives where A9 is always high. > > > Is there any way you can get a dump of a known-good disk cotroller ROM? > > If so, eitehr burn it into an EPROM and replace your firmware ROM, or > > compare it with a dump of your ROM. > > Not currently. There may be a ROM dump out there someone. I haven't looked It would be well worth trying to do this. > hard yet. I have bought an EPROM burner but haven't used it yet. It might > allow me to compare or at least view the code. Bear in mind this is still a > steep learning curve for me. I'm not sure these modern EPROM burners can > read or burn the equivalent of old ROMS like this without some hardware mods > along with it, but I can investigate. Reading a strange EPROM is a lot easier than programming it :-). Once you get to +5V only EPROMs (anything after the 2716, basically [1]), then they all read in much the same way. So it should be fairly easy to make up an adapter to read, say, a 2716 in a programemr that will only do 2764s and larger. Making it program the 2716 is a bit harder. [1] Yes, there wasa 2758 (I think), a sort-of half-good 2716. It's not at all common, and I doubt you'll come across it However, it's also quite easy to use a 2764 in place of a 2716 in the actual machine. What I normally do is make an adapter that will plug into the oriignal EPPROM socket and will tkae the 2764. Most pins just connect across, you need to connect the higher address lines on the EPROM to ground (do this on the adapter, of course). Then program the ROM image into the first section of the larger EPROM, and it should work fine. > > It seems that most of the evidence so far, does point to the ROM, although > not exclusively. I sseem to remeber that one of the other people here said the error could be caused by a number of things, one of which was that the shared memory had not been released (in hardware) so the 53~68000 can access it. I think that would be something quite easy to check (let me take another look at the schematics). Of course why it's not being released could well be due to problems with the ROM. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 12 12:59:47 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 18:59:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Releasing sources/schematics. Was: apple Lisa2. Any advice on In-Reply-To: <4D03FD66.70703@jbrain.com> from "Jim Brain" at Dec 11, 10 04:38:30 pm Message-ID: > > On 12/11/2010 4:06 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > > > Tony Duell, the master of HP, said: Actually, I am not sure I agree with that description. There are others here who know more abotu HP machines that I do. A lot more. > > > >> My experience of releasing source code for classic computer-related > >> things is that the market is so small that nobody is going to make them > >> commerically anyway. And I would much rathers others could see the > >> sources, make changes, improve it, make other simialr devivces, etc. > > > > I have a thinking about this: > > > > - Release everything and sell the product. Because who KNOWS how to > > do, will do it with or without the sources. Who DOESN'T KNOW how to > > do, will not do even with the sources. > > > > It always worked for me. > > > > --- > > Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 > I think you and Tony are in vehemently agreement. I think we are. > > I will attest it works splendidly in this type of market: > > * Pricing a product competitively guarantees people won't bother > building it. Firstly, does it matter if somebody does build their own version (for theire own use)? It's neve worried me... And secondly, I am awkeward enough to want o make my own. Mainly because I could then use leaded solder. And I can put any DIP chips I want to in turned-pin sockets. And I can ... > * The size of the market dissuades competitors I would certianly agree with that. The project that started this discussion was a Lisa keyboard tester. Just how many of those do you think you could sell? There simply aren't that many Lisa owners around. > * If something should happen to your business, another one can pull > the source, and create more for interested individuals. No > orphanware or other issues to worry about. Or if something happens to _you_ (as the guy who built this and didn't release the source). I could well believe I could accidentally connect myself across a high voltage supply, or whatever. > * People are more interested in funding improvements to the device > via "Kickstarter"-like programs when it's freely released. Or modify/fix it themselves. The more people who are able to improve things, the better. -tony From rumi_ml at rtfm.hu Sun Dec 12 13:40:11 2010 From: rumi_ml at rtfm.hu (RUMI Szabolcs) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 20:40:11 +0100 Subject: mysterious 30 pin SIMMs Message-ID: <20101212204011.e959b26d.rumi_ml@rtfm.hu> Hello Everyone! I would like to identify some mysterious old SIMMs: - module P/N appears to be "PS 91/344J" - 30 pin, single sided, 9 chips "SIEMENS HYB514100BJ-60" - "MADE IN U.S.A." probably manufactured in 1994 I have failed to find explicit information about these chips, but I'd guess they are 1Mx4 so 9 of them would make a nice 4MB module with ECC/parity. What kind of machine could these have been made for? Thanks, Sab From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 12 13:55:08 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 11:55:08 -0800 Subject: mysterious 30 pin SIMMs In-Reply-To: <20101212204011.e959b26d.rumi_ml@rtfm.hu> References: <20101212204011.e959b26d.rumi_ml@rtfm.hu> Message-ID: <4D04B81C.32304.4E98AA@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Dec 2010 at 20:40, RUMI Szabolcs wrote: > Hello Everyone! > > I would like to identify some mysterious old SIMMs: > > - module P/N appears to be "PS 91/344J" > - 30 pin, single sided, 9 chips "SIEMENS HYB514100BJ-60" > - "MADE IN U.S.A." probably manufactured in 1994 > > I have failed to find explicit information about these chips, > but I'd guess they are 1Mx4 so 9 of them would make a nice > 4MB module with ECC/parity. No, the HYB514100 is 1x4M. So this would be a simple 4MB FPM DRAM SIMM with partiy. This would probably fit thousands of different systems of the time. Very common on 386 and 486 boxes, but even used on some 286 ones. --Chuck From tshoppa at wmata.com Sun Dec 12 14:05:27 2010 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 15:05:27 -0500 Subject: Unknown TI logic series Message-ID: Brent wrote: > On 2010 Dec 10, at 2:36 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > > > > we've had a look inside our IME 122 calculator and discovered that it > > is full of SN14xx logic ICs. They are mainly from TI, but there are > > also some from Motorola and others. It seems that they have the same > > function and pinout as the SN74xx parts but there must be a difference > > since the machine has quite a lot of SN1401 (the SN7401 is a quad > > open-collector NAND), but there are no pullup resistors anywhere! > > Some of the types are SN1400, SN1401, SN1474, SN1490; the ALU is made > > up > > of SN1482 and SN1483. > > Anyone knows this series? BTW the supply voltage is 5V. > I can't find a reference for those numbers, and I haven't seen them > before, however I have seen TI inexplicably producing series identical > or similar to more-common series, but numbered differently. For > example, the SN3900 and SN4500 series are very similar to more-common > DTL series such as the 700/800/900 series, but I have never seen a > reference for the 3900 or 4500 series in TI databooks. One suggestion > might be they were a 'consumer-grade' series, a step below the standard > commercial-grade stuff. Remember this was the late 60's or early 70's, and the thought of 7400 as the "super series" with variants like 74L00, 74H00, 74S00 actually being inside the family had not quite taken over in the same sense that it did later, even inside TI. I don't think it's so much that the SN1400's/SN3900's/SN4500's were a step below commercial grade, but they probably had product-specific fanin/fanout/noise/current constraints and maybe even custom pinouts or built-in pullup variants in their specs. The 7400 "super series" of pin compatible parts in different speed/current/fanout levels organized by 74L00, 74H00, 74S00, 74LS00 with often identical pinouts was truly genius from a marketing-meets-technology point of view. Not too different than say the 9-pin dual triode with similar to identical pinouts but different gain variants (e.g. 12AU7/12AT7/12AX7) and a zillion commercial/aerospace/computer variants (e.g. 5814A, 5963, etc.) With regards to pinouts not everyone even inside a company had the same thoughts regarding pin locations for Vcc and gnd. TI did a pretty good job most of the time putting them at 7 and 14 or 8 and 16 for TTL which did simplify layout, but there are lots of exceptions even inside the TTL product space. And sometimes there were good reasons for the exceptions, other times I think it was just internal squabbling :-) You can see some of this playing out in TI's competitors logic families too, e.g. Signetics Utilogic with different subfamilies inside the Utilogic superfamily. Tim. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Dec 12 14:07:45 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 12:07:45 -0800 Subject: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: References: <4D00109D.6010103@bitsavers.org> <4D01A403.5020301@mail.msu.edu> <4D01B6B9.5060405@brouhaha.com> <4D01B8F2.3050400@mail.msu.edu> <4D02AE4E.205@brouhaha.com> <4D042D53.1090507@brouhaha.com> <4D049285.10007@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4D052B91.5010707@brouhaha.com> Richard wrote: > Fine, you do it all then. Let us know when you're done. You're completely missing my point. But by all means, feel free to offer the work units on Amazon's Mechanical Turk service, and find out at what price I'm willing to do it. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 12 14:29:06 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 12:29:06 -0800 Subject: Unknown TI logic series In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D04C012.25221.6DB42A@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Dec 2010 at 15:05, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > With regards to pinouts not everyone even inside a company had the > same thoughts regarding pin locations for Vcc and gnd. TI did a pretty > good job most of the time putting them at 7 and 14 or 8 and 16 for TTL > which did simplify layout, but there are lots of exceptions even > inside the TTL product space. And sometimes there were good reasons > for the exceptions, other times I think it was just internal > squabbling :-) ...and sometimes differing between sub-families with the same numeric part number. (e.g. 7486 vs. 74L86). The idea of which way the gates in package should point also seems to be an early bone of contention (7400 vs. 7401). And even the issue of pairing inputs with outputs or placing inputs on the opposite side of the package for bus-related chips (e.g. 74LS373 vs. 74LS573). --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Sun Dec 12 14:30:51 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 13:30:51 -0700 Subject: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <4D052B91.5010707@brouhaha.com> References: <4D00109D.6010103@bitsavers.org> <4D01A403.5020301@mail.msu.edu> <4D01B6B9.5060405@brouhaha.com> <4D01B8F2.3050400@mail.msu.edu> <4D02AE4E.205@brouhaha.com> <4D042D53.1090507@brouhaha.com> <4D049285.10007@brouhaha.com> <4D052B91.5010707@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: In article <4D052B91.5010707 at brouhaha.com>, Eric Smith writes: > Richard wrote: > > Fine, you do it all then. Let us know when you're done. > You're completely missing my point. No, I get your point. I offered up *a* way to get this done and you just want to tell me how it won't work and how awesome you are at doing it, all without actually doing it. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 12 14:54:06 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 12:54:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101212123256.D56668@shell.lmi.net> > > I would be absolutely delighted if someone could prove me wrong. > Don't the various "open" proofing projects work by farmning out any > given piece of work N times and finding the "correct" work by comparing > (electronically, I presume)? Back in the "good old days", IBM made the "Verifier" punch. It was part of the 029 punch series, but did NOT punch data onto cards. Instead, it compared what was being keyed in to what was on the card currently going through. If it came up with a discrepancy, it punched a notch on the 12-edge. If the whole card matched, then it put a notch in the column 80 END of the card. A deck of cards consistently notched on the end was a reassurance that the original punching and the verification matched, and therefore was probably pretty accurate. Of course, that doubled the price and the amount of work for having a service bureau punch your data. If done right, the punching and verifying would be done by two different keypunch operators, to reduce the possibility of the same mistake repeated being verified, particularly with 0 and O, etc. Eventually, some of the service bureaus realized that instead of punching, and then verifying, that it was a lot less work to verify and then punch! So, they would verify entire boxes of blank cards, and then use those for the raw supplies for punching. Hmmmm. Here's a card where somebody made a mistake, realized it, cancelled that card, and punched it over again. But the bad card has a verify notch! Thirty years ago, an old friend who was a good solid 100WPM typist wanted out of her job at UC. So, I helped her set up "The Microcomputer Service Center" to do contract Apple and TRS80 data input. The name choice was flawed, as people would call thinking that it was a repair business. She made a decent living at it, but when I left City College of San Francisco, she took over teaching the classes that I had had, and made a career of teaching. Don't get me started about how I made the wrong decision about which school district to work at when I went to Peralta! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Dec 12 15:04:45 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 16:04:45 -0500 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <20101212123256.D56668@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101212123256.D56668@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > Back in the "good old days", IBM made the "Verifier" punch. ?It was part > of the 029 punch series, but did NOT punch data onto cards. 059, officially. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Dec 12 15:43:54 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 16:43:54 -0500 Subject: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: References: <4D00109D.6010103@bitsavers.org> <4D01A403.5020301@mail.msu.edu> <4D01B6B9.5060405@brouhaha.com> <4D01B8F2.3050400@mail.msu.edu> <4D02AE4E.205@brouhaha.com> <4D042D53.1090507@brouhaha.com> <4D049285.10007@brouhaha.com> <4D052B91.5010707@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > No, I get your point. ?I offered up *a* way to get this done and you > just want to tell me how it won't work and how awesome you are at > doing it, all without actually doing it. Well, I am awesome (start blowing the horns!) at doing this sort of thing (but, no, I am not volunteering). Kicking around the backwaters of the Internet is a circa 1950 document called (I think) "Cross Index of Electronic Tube Types". It is a raw text file, about 120 pages of very tight text, so really about 200 pages of normal spaced text. Tube types, descriptions, stock numbers, equivalents, all sorts of esoteric knowledge. Fair Radio sells reprints of it. Anyway, about 20 years ago I scanned the third generation photocopy of the document, OCRed it (on a 486), then proofread it in my spare time. Some comments: 1) It went faster than I thought it would. The first pages were slow, but later pages went fast. I noticed that I started to recognize common OCR errors, and had a heightened sense finding them. This became very handy when I started sections where all the data was very similar, like all the 2J** magnetron tubes. Towards the end I was doing a page in less than two minutes. If you do a sample using a "human-OCR" service, you may not see this effect, as the few samples submitted might not get the guys and girls "in tune". Once "in tune", I am sure the service will start to fly, and be done much quicker than expected. 2) Being a tube geek anyway, many of the OCR errors, or even errors in the source data, stuck out like a sore thumb. These were easy to correct (and in some cases, correct me). Knowing what you are looking at is a huge help. Think of it like how your 8th grade math teachers taught you about story type problems - if the answer you get looks wrong, it probably is. As it turns out, the final OCR'd data is remarkable error free - except for original source errors. 3) It was extremely easy to break into chunks. Some days I could do a bunch, others, none. Putting it aside for even a week did not get me "out of tune". 4) It was not as much of a drag as I thought it would be. Every so often I would discover some interesting tidbit in the listing, and have to research it more. I bet if I was doing the same thing with a source listing, perhaps with juicy comments from the programmers, I would probably get distracted just as much, and thus learn a bunch of things that I probably would never learn any other way. Anyway, the point of this is that while the firmware listing in question is quite big, it is certainly very doable. One person could probably do it very on-and-off in a few months, or it could be broken into chunks and done in a fraction of the time by a team of people. It is not an insurmountable obstacle. -- Will From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Dec 12 16:35:15 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 16:35:15 -0600 Subject: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: References: <4D00109D.6010103@bitsavers.org> <4D01A403.5020301@mail.msu.edu> <4D01B6B9.5060405@brouhaha.com> <4D01B8F2.3050400@mail.msu.edu> <4D02AE4E.205@brouhaha.com> <4D042D53.1090507@brouhaha.com> <4D049285.10007@brouhaha.com> <4D052B91.5010707@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <201012122238.oBCMc7Vw020993@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 02:30 PM 12/12/2010, Richard wrote: >No, I get your point. I offered up *a* way to get this done and you >just want to tell me how it won't work and how awesome you are at >doing it, all without actually doing it. You must be new here. :-) - John From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Dec 12 16:29:35 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 20:29:35 -0200 Subject: Releasing sources/schematics. Was: apple Lisa2. Any advice on References: Message-ID: <738F6B2691084B3A80C9E62A16FC16A0@portajara> > One final comment. You may come across things I wrote years ago with > comments like 'This is not Public Domain, it is released for the benefit > of PERQ fanantics...'. It is _not_ leagally public domain, I will not > totally give up the copyright (for good reasons)., But I will take a very > wide definiton of 'PERQ fanatic' or whatever. If it helps you write a > PERQ emulator, or archive some PERQ disks, or.. then you're a > PREQ-fanatic. You're completely right. That is not because you make it avaiable to people, it has to be "public domain". It was made by you, and the copyright is yours. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Dec 12 16:32:00 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 20:32:00 -0200 Subject: apple Lisa2. One working!! - one to go? References: Message-ID: <759A6D98F2824663B6CE977B99F48988@portajara> > However, it's also quite easy to use a 2764 in place of a 2716 in the > actual machine. What I normally do is make an adapter that will plug into > the oriignal EPPROM socket and will tkae the 2764. Most pins just > connect across, you need to connect the higher address lines on the EPROM > to ground (do this on the adapter, of course). Then program the ROM image > into the first section of the larger EPROM, and it should work fine. An example to ilustrate the talk: http://tabalabs.com.br/c64/sx From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 12 17:08:12 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 15:08:12 -0800 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <20101212123256.D56668@shell.lmi.net> References: , <20101212123256.D56668@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4D04E55C.10984.FF5ABA@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Dec 2010 at 12:54, Fred Cisin wrote: > If done right, the punching and verifying would be done by two > different keypunch operators, to reduce the possibility of the same > mistake repeated being verified, particularly with 0 and O, etc. It happened a long time ago, but it taught me that there's a very large human element to computers. I submitted a pile of coding sheets to keypunch and got the deck back with the note: "I didn't know if you meant zero or "oh" when you write (O with a stroke through it), so I punched some cards both ways." One worthless box (2000) of cards. After that, I learned to drop by keypunch to occasionally chat with the ladies (it was comprised entirely of women), and occasionally drop off some munchies and other things. They knew me and I knew them. And I never had an issue with keypunch after that. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 12 17:15:18 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 15:15:18 -0800 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: References: , <20101212123256.D56668@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: <4D04E706.25075.105DAD9@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Dec 2010 at 16:04, William Donzelli wrote: > > Back in the "good old days", IBM made the "Verifier" punch. ?It was > > part of the 029 punch series, but did NOT punch data onto cards. > > 059, officially. Wasn't there also a version of the 029 with the verifier as an option (i.e. a switch on the keyboard panel that said "Verify")? --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 12 17:23:04 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 15:23:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <4D04E706.25075.105DAD9@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20101212123256.D56668@shell.lmi.net>, <4D04E706.25075.105DAD9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20101212151756.L56668@shell.lmi.net> > > > Back in the "good old days", IBM made the "Verifier" punch. ?It was > > > part of the 029 punch series, but did NOT punch data onto cards. > > 059, officially. On Sun, 12 Dec 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Wasn't there also a version of the 029 with the verifier as an option > (i.e. a switch on the keyboard panel that said "Verify")? I don't remember that one, but there were a lot of different variant models. I remember an 029 series punch with a switch for "Interpret". It was a slow way to do it, but it did a proper 80 column interpret V the 60 columns of the stand-alone interpreter. (I don't remember the model number of that one either.) From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun Dec 12 17:46:49 2010 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 18:46:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <4D04E706.25075.105DAD9@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20101212123256.D56668@shell.lmi.net>, <4D04E706.25075.105DAD9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Dec 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12 Dec 2010 at 16:04, William Donzelli wrote: > >>> Back in the "good old days", IBM made the "Verifier" punch. ?It was >>> part of the 029 punch series, but did NOT punch data onto cards. >> >> 059, officially. > > Wasn't there also a version of the 029 with the verifier as an option > (i.e. a switch on the keyboard panel that said "Verify")? The 129 models 1 and 3 could both punch and verify: http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/Keypunch/Keyboard-L.jpg The Punch/Verify switch is on the left. I don't know of any 029s with the verify option, only the 059 verifier. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 12 18:02:53 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 16:02:53 -0800 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: References: , <4D04E706.25075.105DAD9@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4D04F22D.6714.1316CE7@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Dec 2010 at 18:46, Mike Loewen wrote: > The 129 models 1 and 3 could both punch and verify: Could be the 129 that I'm thinking of. I do know that there were several variations of the 029; I seem to remember one even used as a card reader and as a punch, but I can't recall the equipment setup. Or maybe I'm thinking of a Univac keypunch that was used that way. My mind gets muddled with age. re: Interpreters. The 557 was the one that I always ran into. You could get blank cards printed with 60 column numbers in the first row and 20 in the second for use with it. To a programmer, the annoying problem with the 557 was the limited character set. Basically letters and numbers with a few punctuation symbols. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Dec 12 19:38:42 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 01:38:42 +0000 Subject: AT&T 3B1 / 7300 / UNIX PC: Boot sequence from floppy In-Reply-To: <4CFC980E.3080603@brouhaha.com> References: <1291606310.29851.72.camel@ryoko> <4CFC980E.3080603@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4D057922.6060906@philpem.me.uk> On 06/12/10 08:00, Eric Smith wrote: > Philip Pemberton wrote: > > My "annotated edition" corrects about a dozen minor and > > major errors in the register set descriptions, and adds a bunch > > of informational sticky-notes and scribbly comments to reinforce > > certain points. > > At some point when you have spare time, could you transcribe the > corrections and comments and post them? Yeah, sure. But it might be easier to re-scan the documentation! Yes, there are *that* *many* errors.... Even the test code in the Diagnostics chapter is worthless -- missing code lines, incorrect hex code (seriously, a stack-push in a piece of code that's meant to kick off a sector read?!) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Dec 12 19:40:18 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 01:40:18 +0000 Subject: AT&T 3B1 / 7300 / UNIX PC: Boot sequence from floppy In-Reply-To: References: <1291606310.29851.72.camel@ryoko> Message-ID: <4D057982.4000901@philpem.me.uk> On 06/12/10 03:38, Mark Davidson wrote: > I can tell you that my Unix PC does what you suggested... if you put > the diag floppy in the machine and reboot, it just boots the floppy > without ever trying to boot from the hard drive. Right... so the four-hashes means it's trying to boot off my floppy and giving up for whatever reason. Grrrr... This is not fun. > I'm definitely going to download your emulator and give it a try! :) I'll put a README together in a bit... It's not the easiest thing to make work. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Dec 12 10:15:27 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 16:15:27 +0000 Subject: Decent Motorola 68000 / 68010 book? Message-ID: <1292170527.3595.52.camel@ryoko> Hi guys, Does anyone have any recommendations for a good book on the 68000/68010 CPUs (covering assembly language, the programming architecture and the interrupt system as a minimum)? I'm trying to disassemble the AT&T UNIX PC Boot PROM and Loader, and figure out why the Loader doesn't seem to think my WD2797 emulation is providing valid data... As I said before, it's probing the FDC, reading either two or four sectors, then giving up and trying the HDD instead.... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From evan at snarc.net Sun Dec 12 20:36:55 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 21:36:55 -0500 Subject: Check your collections ... Message-ID: <4D0586C7.7070102@snarc.net> This weekend we had a holiday party for MARCH (Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists). At one point last night, several of us walked through our club's storage warehouse. Ian Primus discovered that we have a mostly complete Prime 6550 minicomputer. Apparently its racks have been sitting in our warehouse for five years, but they weren't arranged in the correct order, and I never realized they all go together to make one full system! So, check your collections .... one never knows what one might find among one's own collection after drinking a lot of beer and bourbon. From keithvz at verizon.net Sun Dec 12 22:16:32 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 23:16:32 -0500 Subject: Decent Motorola 68000 / 68010 book? In-Reply-To: <1292170527.3595.52.camel@ryoko> References: <1292170527.3595.52.camel@ryoko> Message-ID: <4D059E20.3050300@verizon.net> On 12/12/2010 11:15 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > > Does anyone have any recommendations for a good book on the 68000/68010 > CPUs (covering assembly language, the programming architecture and the > interrupt system as a minimum)? I really like "Microprocessor Systems Design: 68000 Hardware, Software, and Interfacing" by Clements. http://www.amazon.com/Microprocessor-Systems-Design-Hardware-Interfacing/dp/0534948227/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1292213703&sr=1-1 or similar. Keith From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Dec 13 00:04:27 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 22:04:27 -0800 Subject: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: References: <4D00109D.6010103@bitsavers.org> <4D01A403.5020301@mail.msu.edu> <4D01B6B9.5060405@brouhaha.com> <4D01B8F2.3050400@mail.msu.edu> <4D02AE4E.205@brouhaha.com> <4D042D53.1090507@brouhaha.com> <4D049285.10007@brouhaha.com> <4D052B91.5010707@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4D05B76B.3080100@brouhaha.com> Richard wrote: > No, I get your point. I offered up *a* way to get this done and you > just want to tell me how it won't work and how awesome you are at > doing it, all without actually doing it. Yes, fine. Misinterpret my posting any way you like. For everyone that isn't being obtuse, my point was that typing in code is not going to be very successful if the person doing the typing doesn't have some familiarity with the material. You don't have to take my word for it; William Donzelli's description of entering a tube cross-reference, and Fred Cisin's experience with keypunch operators demonstrate basically the same thing. Eric From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Dec 13 02:26:57 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 08:26:57 -0000 Subject: Check your collections ... In-Reply-To: <4D0586C7.7070102@snarc.net> Message-ID: <97651BEA783A414295359E7C515BA25B@ANTONIOPC> Evan Koblentz [evan at snarc.net] wrote: > So, check your collections .... one never > knows what one might find among one's own collection after drinking a > lot of beer and bourbon. Finally ... a fun way to hunt down that ever-elusive PDP-1 :-) Antonio From lynchaj at yahoo.com Mon Dec 13 05:03:27 2010 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 06:03:27 -0500 Subject: Decent Motorola 68000 - 68010 book Message-ID: <0D0EBB71C5264BE7BA99742C2CF1EB7E@andrewdesktop> Decent Motorola 68000 / 68010 book? Keith Monahan keithvz at verizon.net Sun Dec 12 22:16:32 CST 2010 * Previous message: Decent Motorola 68000 / 68010 book? * Next message: mysterious 30 pin SIMMs * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] ________________________________ On 12/12/2010 11:15 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > > Does anyone have any recommendations for a good book on the 68000/68010 > CPUs (covering assembly language, the programming architecture and the > interrupt system as a minimum)? -----REPLY----- I like 68000 Microcomputer Systems: Designing and Troubleshooting By Alan D. Wilcox http://www.amazon.com/68000-Microcomputer-Systems-Designing-Troubleshooting/ dp/0138113998 I contacted the author and received permission to make a PCB based on the 68K CPU board in the book. We are making an S-100 68K CPU board PCB based on the board described in the book. It is currently in build and test and the status is on the Douglas Goodall wiki. http://douglasgoodall.pbworks.com There is more information on the N8VEM 68K CPU board on the N8VEM wiki. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Mon Dec 13 06:52:51 2010 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 04:52:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP 11/24 and VAX 3500 available Message-ID: <365098.24913.qm@web56207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I'm thinning down my collection and have a PDP 11/24 and a VAX 3500 available - free but collecton only (UK). The 11/24 could do with a clean, but it looks to be complete and has the often missing power key as well. Internally there are several cards. The VAX 3500 is in a desk side pedestal style case. It has wheels so can be moved. In nice condition cosmetically. No idea what cards etc are installed. Both units have never been powered up by me, and would need to be carefully checked, etc before powering up. Given away as is - for spares or repair. Collection only. Contact me by email if interested. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Dec 13 07:46:43 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 07:46:43 -0600 Subject: Check your collections ... In-Reply-To: <97651BEA783A414295359E7C515BA25B@ANTONIOPC> References: <97651BEA783A414295359E7C515BA25B@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <4D0623C3.3020601@gmail.com> arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Evan Koblentz [evan at snarc.net] wrote: > >> So, check your collections .... one never >> knows what one might find among one's own collection after drinking a >> lot of beer and bourbon. > > Finally ... a fun way to hunt down that ever-elusive PDP-1 :-) Yes, drink enough beer and everything starts to look like a PDP-1... From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Dec 13 07:49:24 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 05:49:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Check your collections ... In-Reply-To: <4D0623C3.3020601@gmail.com> from Jules Richardson at "Dec 13, 10 07:46:43 am" Message-ID: <201012131349.oBDDnP9A021904@floodgap.com> > > Finally ... a fun way to hunt down that ever-elusive PDP-1 :-) > > Yes, drink enough beer and everything starts to look like a PDP-1... I just discovered a Lisa in my collection. It takes 5.25" disks, has two joystick ports and has a marvelous blue screen that says READY. However, I'm pretty sure the blue screen is just the alcohol talking. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- This signature is free of dihydrogen monoxide! Ban it now! www.dhmo.org ---- From trebor77 at execpc.com Mon Dec 13 08:56:42 2010 From: trebor77 at execpc.com (Robert J. Stevens) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 08:56:42 -0600 Subject: Need help with Project Northstar/Data I/O System-19/ADM Terminals Message-ID: <4D06342A.9010501@execpc.com> I am trying to restore a N* Horizon,. So far I have got the ZPB-A2 CPU card working. I added the Prom Option and am using a 2708 EPROM with Monitor Code by Dave Dunfield. A Friend burnt the Prom for me but I has a problem and doesn't get the Keyboard Input. I have tried several times to Burn a new Prom with my D/I Sys-19 but they don't behave as they should. I have a SOL20 System/Bus Probe Card that single steps from the get go and I can step through the Code and see how it behaves in relation to the .lst listing. I have been using my Canon Book 10 running "TERM" to talk to the N*. It talks OK to the Sys-19 as well as other machines. I lost both of my Televideo 920/25's. I had three ADM LSI's in the Shed/Barn but the Field mice made their nests in two. The one that was untouched I brought in the Other day and It lights up the Mini-Tracker showing that the ADM is setup as DTE. But I get no response from the Keyboard. Tried looping back 2-3 but no display. Don't see any Raster but the tube POPs up a spot when turned off. I am going to try to pull the Mother board out of the Other Micey ADM. Maybe I can swap the M/B's and see if that CRT is working. Same for the One still in the Barn. What would my chances be of soaking it and getting all the CRAP off it and having it WORK????? probably ZILCH. The third one is still in the Barn but Maybe it can be cleaned up. These terminals haven't been run since 1992. I also have a IBM 3101 a but so far all I found was the Base and CRT. The Keyboard must be in the Barn. Has anyone a spare Terminal. I'm thinking that maybe the Monitor code will work when attached to a REAL Terminal I bought about 5 2708's and If I can find someone who might load the New Code for me I could send them a 2708 and E-Mail the .HEX file. Bob in Wisconsin From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Dec 13 09:02:18 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 15:02:18 -0000 Subject: PDP 11/24 and VAX 3500 available In-Reply-To: <365098.24913.qm@web56207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <365098.24913.qm@web56207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003e01cb9ad6$c43ecd00$4cbc6700$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of silvercreekvalley > Sent: 13 December 2010 12:53 > To: cctalk > Subject: PDP 11/24 and VAX 3500 available > > I'm thinning down my collection and have a PDP 11/24 and a VAX 3500 > available - free but collecton only (UK). > > The 11/24 could do with a clean, but it looks to be complete and has the often > missing power key as well. Internally there are several cards. > > The VAX 3500 is in a desk side pedestal style case. It has wheels so can be > moved. In nice condition cosmetically. No idea what cards etc are installed. > > Both units have never been powered up by me, and would need to be carefully > checked, etc before powering up. Given away as is - for spares or repair. > > Collection only. Contact me by email if interested. > > > It would help to say where in the UK. I wouldn't mind a PDP-11 but I don't think I have the space. Regards Rob From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Dec 13 09:16:23 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 10:16:23 -0500 Subject: PDP 11/24 and VAX 3500 available In-Reply-To: <365098.24913.qm@web56207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <365098.24913.qm@web56207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 7:52 AM, silvercreekvalley wrote: > The 11/24 could do with a clean, but it looks to be complete > and has the often missing power key as well. For those that are missing the original plastic power key, you can substitute a blank metal ACE tubular lock key (or, in fact, _any_ cut ACE key, including the ubiquitous DEC XX2247-cut key). They are common in the States for commercial locks (vending machines, arcade machines, etc), but I don't know about the UK. Here, one can go to nearly any commercial locksmith for blank keys or to get an XX2247 key cut from the code. -ethan From technobug at comcast.net Mon Dec 13 09:50:11 2010 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 08:50:11 -0700 Subject: Decent Motorola 68000 / 68010 book? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <188BCFC7-A32B-486D-AA4A-1CAB2F62E0FA@comcast.net> On Sun, 12 Dec 2010 16:15:27 +0000, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > > Does anyone have any recommendations for a good book on the 68000/68010 > CPUs (covering assembly language, the programming architecture and the > interrupt system as a minimum)? > > [...] > -- > Phil. "Microprocessor Systems Design - 68000 Hardware, Software, and Interfacing" Alan Clements, PWS-Kent Publishing Company It appears that copies are available as PDF downloads from multiple sources... CRC From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 13 12:35:07 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 11:35:07 -0700 Subject: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: References: <4D00109D.6010103@bitsavers.org> <4D01A403.5020301@mail.msu.edu> <4D01B6B9.5060405@brouhaha.com> <4D01B8F2.3050400@mail.msu.edu> <4D02AE4E.205@brouhaha.com> <4D042D53.1090507@brouhaha.com> <4D049285.10007@brouhaha.com> <4D052B91.5010707@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > Anyway, the point of this is that while the firmware listing in > question is quite big, it is certainly very doable. One person could > probably do it very on-and-off in a few months, or it could be broken > into chunks and done in a fraction of the time by a team of people. It > is not an insurmountable obstacle. I agree. I did a few pages myself just to see what it would be like. If I were to do mechanical turk, I would use what I learned from doing it myself to create an instruction guide to reduce the amount of errors introduced by those who don't know assembly language and/or the quirks of this system. For instance, there's quite a few chunks where they do something like: JSR DOFP .BYTE FHEX .WORD COSTHA .BYTE FLEX .WORD SINTHA etc. This is from memory of the few pages I did, so I may have it slightly wrong, but it still illustrates the point. This looks to me like a transition from assembly code into the ROM BASIC code, but that is just a guess. If I were to ask other people to do this, I would bother with the assembled opcodes (in many cases they are useless as global symbols all show up as 0000G with the linker filling in the resolved address later, making comparisons to a disassembly listing rather fruitless), or the listing line numbers (which aren't on every line of every source code) or the page header or footer. Its the source code mnemonics and comments that are important. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 13 12:40:47 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 11:40:47 -0700 Subject: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <4D05B76B.3080100@brouhaha.com> References: <4D00109D.6010103@bitsavers.org> <4D01A403.5020301@mail.msu.edu> <4D01B6B9.5060405@brouhaha.com> <4D01B8F2.3050400@mail.msu.edu> <4D02AE4E.205@brouhaha.com> <4D042D53.1090507@brouhaha.com> <4D049285.10007@brouhaha.com> <4D052B91.5010707@brouhaha.com> <4D05B76B.3080100@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: In article <4D05B76B.3080100 at brouhaha.com>, Eric Smith writes: > For everyone that isn't being obtuse, my point was that typing in code > is not going to be very successful if the person doing the typing > doesn't have some familiarity with the material. If you approach it as "dump a bunch of listings in their face and lock them in a room with noone to talk to", then yeah. (Reminds me of an old Dick Van Dyke episode where he's laid off for the summer and has to write marketing fluff for radio rectifier tubes.) However, if you write an instruction guide and give a brief tutorial on how to do this successfully, then it doesn't take knowledge of assembly language, the 6800 mnemonics, or even Tektronix's crazy mixing of assembly and BASIC. This *isn't* rocket science and it *doesn't* require special knowledge of computers to do properly. It does, however, produce much better results with a little instruction and guidance. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Dec 13 12:59:31 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 10:59:31 -0800 Subject: Unknown TI logic series In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2010 Dec 12, at 12:05 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > Brent wrote: >> On 2010 Dec 10, at 2:36 AM, Christian Corti wrote: >>> >>> we've had a look inside our IME 122 calculator and discovered that >>> it >>> is full of SN14xx logic ICs. They are mainly from TI, but there are >>> also some from Motorola and others. It seems that they have the same >>> function and pinout as the SN74xx parts but there must be a >>> difference >>> since the machine has quite a lot of SN1401 (the SN7401 is a quad >>> open-collector NAND), but there are no pullup resistors anywhere! >>> Some of the types are SN1400, SN1401, SN1474, SN1490; the ALU is >>> made >>> up >>> of SN1482 and SN1483. >>> Anyone knows this series? BTW the supply voltage is 5V. > >> I can't find a reference for those numbers, and I haven't seen them >> before, however I have seen TI inexplicably producing series identical >> or similar to more-common series, but numbered differently. For >> example, the SN3900 and SN4500 series are very similar to more-common >> DTL series such as the 700/800/900 series, but I have never seen a >> reference for the 3900 or 4500 series in TI databooks. One suggestion >> might be they were a 'consumer-grade' series, a step below the >> standard >> commercial-grade stuff. > > Remember this was the late 60's or early 70's, and the thought of 7400 > as the > "super series" with variants like 74L00, 74H00, 74S00 actually being > inside the > family had not quite taken over in the same sense that it did later, > even inside TI. I don't think it's so much that the > SN1400's/SN3900's/SN4500's > were a step below commercial grade, but they probably had > product-specific > fanin/fanout/noise/current constraints and maybe even custom pinouts > or built-in pullup variants in their specs. > The 7400 "super series" of pin compatible parts in different > speed/current/fanout > levels organized by 74L00, 74H00, 74S00, 74LS00 with often identical > pinouts > was truly genius from a marketing-meets-technology point of view. > Not too different than say the 9-pin dual triode with similar to > identical pinouts but different gain variants (e.g. 12AU7/12AT7/12AX7) > and a zillion > commercial/aerospace/computer variants (e.g. 5814A, 5963, etc.) Regarding the SN1400 series though, the 74H and 74L variants are present in the 1969 TI TTL databook, a little before or around the same time as the noted SN1400 units. There were lots of other TTL series being produced by other manufacturers, but the SN1400 one seems odd coming from TI, who had established the 7400 series years earlier, and the application in a calculator would or could be adequately covered by the standard series. Grading was just one line of speculation, certainly there is the potential of other possibilities as you suggest. I find it interesting to investigate the lesser-known IC series from the early days of ICs. For technically purposes we can generally come to an adequate explanation for the sake of maintenance of old equipment that uses them, it would nonetheless be interesting to see original data to explain just what TI or others were doing and why and how they differ from the more-common series. Detailed information about even the common DTL series can be rare to come by, IME. Just to see if anything recent was out there, I went looking on the web for other references to the SN3900 series and found three sites: one in another calculator examination, and two sites that were simply ripping off (without source ref or attribution) the information presented on my own web site. > With regards to pinouts not everyone even inside a company had the > same thoughts > regarding pin locations for Vcc and gnd. TI did a pretty good job most > of the time putting > them at 7 and 14 or 8 and 16 for TTL which did simplify layout, but > there are lots of exceptions > even inside the TTL product space. And sometimes there were good > reasons for the > exceptions, other times I think it was just internal squabbling :-) The 7490 was one that always bugged me, very common and one of the first 2 or 3 IC types I ever used (pins 5/Vcc and 10/GND). One of the oddest I've seen (relative to conventional standards) is a small logic series produced by Sony, with power on pins 13 and 14. (Also worth mentioning v.v. the original discussion, as it seems to have open-collector outputs, with no pull-ups in use. http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/eec/ics/Sony500.html ) > You can see some of this playing out in TI's competitors logic > families too, e.g. Signetics > Utilogic with different subfamilies inside the Utilogic superfamily. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Dec 13 13:05:58 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 14:05:58 -0500 Subject: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: References: <4D00109D.6010103@bitsavers.org> <4D01A403.5020301@mail.msu.edu> <4D01B6B9.5060405@brouhaha.com> <4D01B8F2.3050400@mail.msu.edu> <4D02AE4E.205@brouhaha.com> <4D042D53.1090507@brouhaha.com> <4D049285.10007@brouhaha.com> <4D052B91.5010707@brouhaha.com> <4D05B76B.3080100@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > If you approach it as "dump a bunch of listings in their face and lock > them in a room with noone to talk to", then yeah. ?(Reminds me of an > old Dick Van Dyke episode where he's laid off for the summer and has > to write marketing fluff for radio rectifier tubes.) > > However, if you write an instruction guide and give a brief tutorial > on how to do this successfully, then it doesn't take knowledge of > assembly language, the 6800 mnemonics, or even Tektronix's crazy > mixing of assembly and BASIC. > > This *isn't* rocket science and it *doesn't* require special knowledge > of computers to do properly. ?It does, however, produce much better > results with a little instruction and guidance. I doubt that the transcribers would need to be trained at all. People are pretty good at learning patterns, even if the symbols remain unknown. In your example, I think they would quickly form a rule like "JSR should generally be followed by something that looks like a name with alpha characters". If the rule breaks from simple observation, scrutinize further. No need to know what JSR means at all. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Dec 13 13:07:31 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 14:07:31 -0500 Subject: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: References: <4D00109D.6010103@bitsavers.org> <4D01A403.5020301@mail.msu.edu> <4D01B6B9.5060405@brouhaha.com> <4D01B8F2.3050400@mail.msu.edu> <4D02AE4E.205@brouhaha.com> <4D042D53.1090507@brouhaha.com> <4D049285.10007@brouhaha.com> <4D052B91.5010707@brouhaha.com> <4D05B76B.3080100@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > I doubt that the transcribers Oops, proofreaders, not transcribers. -- Will From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Dec 13 13:03:38 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 14:03:38 -0500 Subject: apple Lisa2. One working!! - one to go? References: Message-ID: Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 20:32:00 -0200 From: "Alexandre Souza - Listas" Subject: Re: apple Lisa2. One working!! - one to go? > However, it's also quite easy to use a 2764 in place of a 2716 in the > actual machine. What I normally do is make an adapter that will plug into > the oriignal EPPROM socket and will tkae the 2764. Most pins just > connect across, you need to connect the higher address lines on the EPROM > to ground (do this on the adapter, of course). Then program the ROM image > into the first section of the larger EPROM, and it should work fine. An example to ilustrate the talk: http://tabalabs.com.br/c64/sx +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Definitely interesting and somewhat relevant, but not quite the same thing; that deals with the common problem of replacing 24pin 8K 23xx type ROMs (or 68764/66 EPROMs) with a 27xx equivalent EPROM (with multiple images in this example), whereas Tony was talking about replacing a 2716 with a larger 27xx EPROM, not quite the same thing or adapter. mike From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Dec 13 13:11:10 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 14:11:10 -0500 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing References: Message-ID: Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 15:08:12 -0800 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing After that, I learned to drop by keypunch to occasionally chat with the ladies (it was comprised entirely of women), and occasionally drop off some munchies and other things. They knew me and I knew them. And I never had an issue with keypunch after that. --Chuck +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ As a matter of fact my very first job was also in a service bureau and that's where I also learned the importance of being able to charm the ladies, a skill that's served me well (and gotten me into considerable trouble) in subsequent years... mike From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Dec 13 13:20:32 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 14:20:32 -0500 Subject: RCS Open House Message-ID: Mark the 18th of this month - next Saturday - for an Open House at the Retrocomputing Society of Rhode Island* at our millspace in Providence, RI. Last month we fired up an EAI TR-10 analog computer, and I suspect we will be doing the same this month, as well as possibly some work on a PDP-11/45 and a DEC Lab-K. Lots of super nerd geek talk as well. And possibly a fun dog. Generally, hours are 3 to 8 PM, with a dinner break around 6. The mill is located in the neighborhood of Olneyville, just a few miles from central Providence. For directions go to: http://rcsri.org/directions.html Ask if you need more information! *Not the Rhode Island Computer Museum aka RICM! -- Will From rborsuk at colourfull.com Mon Dec 13 13:24:01 2010 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 14:24:01 -0500 Subject: 68k s-100 board was [Re: Decent Motorola 68000 - 68010 book] In-Reply-To: <0D0EBB71C5264BE7BA99742C2CF1EB7E@andrewdesktop> References: <0D0EBB71C5264BE7BA99742C2CF1EB7E@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: On Dec 13, 2010, at 6:03 AM, Andrew Lynch wrote: > > > I like > > 68000 Microcomputer Systems: Designing and Troubleshooting > By Alan D. Wilcox > > http://www.amazon.com/68000-Microcomputer-Systems-Designing-Troubleshooting/ > dp/0138113998 > > I contacted the author and received permission to make a PCB based on the > 68K CPU board in the book. > > We are making an S-100 68K CPU board PCB based on the board described in the > book. > > It is currently in build and test and the status is on the Douglas Goodall > wiki. > > http://douglasgoodall.pbworks.com > > There is more information on the N8VEM 68K CPU board on the N8VEM wiki. > > Thanks and have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch > Andrew, The douglasgoodall website required a log in before viewing. Status posted anywhere else? Thanks Rob Robert Borsuk rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations http://www.colourfull.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 13 13:46:50 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 11:46:50 -0800 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4D0607AA.25687.5E2476@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Dec 2010 at 14:11, MikeS wrote: > As a matter of fact my very first job was also in a service bureau and > that's where I also learned the importance of being able to charm the > ladies, a skill that's served me well (and gotten me into considerable > trouble) in subsequent years... Another skill to be learned was the ability to block-print neatly and legibly, differentiating "1" from "I", "0" from "O", etc. It was all uppercase, so that simplified things somewhat. To this day, I still put a line through my "7", although I've dropped the stroke through my zero as most people find it to be confusing. To this day, my cursive sucks, but my block printing is exemplary. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Dec 13 13:50:31 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 11:50:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <4D0607AA.25687.5E2476@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4D0607AA.25687.5E2476@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Dec 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 13 Dec 2010 at 14:11, MikeS wrote: > >> As a matter of fact my very first job was also in a service bureau and >> that's where I also learned the importance of being able to charm the >> ladies, a skill that's served me well (and gotten me into considerable >> trouble) in subsequent years... > > Another skill to be learned was the ability to block-print neatly and > legibly, differentiating "1" from "I", "0" from "O", etc. It was all > uppercase, so that simplified things somewhat. To this day, I still > put a line through my "7", although I've dropped the stroke through > my zero as most people find it to be confusing. > I haven't been able to write in cursive since my architecture classes in high school. :) I refuse to stop slashing my zeroes and crossing my sevens though. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 13 14:07:30 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 12:07:30 -0800 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: References: , <4D0607AA.25687.5E2476@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4D060C82.9181.711084@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Dec 2010 at 11:50, Gene Buckle wrote: > I haven't been able to write in cursive since my architecture classes > in high school. :) I refuse to stop slashing my zeroes and crossing > my sevens though. To be fair, I was never any good at cursive, despite many classroom hours with the Palmer method (remember the special 3-line paper and special pens?). Try as I might, I never got any better than "What the hell is this?" grades in penmanship. Block-printing I learned to do quickly and well as a radio amateur. Which seems to imply that motivation is a big contributor to excellence... --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 13 14:03:50 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 20:03:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Releasing sources/schematics. Was: apple Lisa2. Any advice on In-Reply-To: <738F6B2691084B3A80C9E62A16FC16A0@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Dec 12, 10 08:29:35 pm Message-ID: > You're completely right. That is not because you make it avaiable to > people, it has to be "public domain". It was made by you, and the copyright > is yours. Yes. Unless I agree to it beforehand (say as part of a contract of employment), I will not transfer the copyright on anything I've done to anyone. It would appear that in some cases that this could prevent me from making use fo it in the future... Hwoever, as I said earlier, for just about anything I do for myself, I will release source code, schematcs, etc, under a pretty open license. -tony From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Dec 13 14:31:04 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 12:31:04 -0800 Subject: Happy DEC-10 everyone! In-Reply-To: <20101211091155.GB6554@Update.UU.SE> References: <3DB0909E-FB6B-4A20-B789-8AA9F66AE858@lunar-tokyo.net> <4D029FF4.1090409@neurotica.com> <20101211091155.GB6554@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: From: Pontus Pihlgren Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 1:12 AM On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 05:37:33PM -0500, William Donzelli wrote: >> The problem with running a KS10 is that there is a very restrictive >> list of disks and tapes it will play with. > Didn't Ian and the guys at the Living Computer Museum (formerly > PDPplanet) work on a massbuss "emulator" of sorts? That should be > modifiable to work with the 18 bit KS-10 version? > Or am I missing something? I'm unsure what happened with that project. As it happens, we are about to send out the artwork for the second revision of the Massbus Disk Emulator this week (a project which predates Ian by a couple of years!). We've been waiting for Rabbit to bring out a faster processor than the one in the original design, and changing the way that register shadowing is done. There is no such thing, by the way, as "the 18 bit KS-10 version"--Massbus is Massbus, no matter whether it is talking to an RH20 on a KL-10, an RH70 on a PDP-11/70, an RH15 on a PDP-15, or an RH11 on other PDP-11 models. They're *all* 18 bits of data, though the 16-bit systems don't use 2 bits of that. Anyway, the MDE looks like a string of disks on a Massbus channel (only RP06 currently, but that will change soon) to the vintage system. Disk images are represented as directories of track files on an FTP server. (100baseT Ethernet keeps up with Massbus very nicely.) Once we have more than the breadboard prototype running (on the 2065 that Ian mentioned up-thread), we'll hook one to a KS-10, as well as to our PDP-11/70 and PDP-11/45, and see what we can shake loose. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From dgahling at hotmail.com Mon Dec 13 14:36:34 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 15:36:34 -0500 Subject: another question about removing epoxy Message-ID: I read the recent things about removing epoxy or other stuff gunked on components. I have two questions, I have an item with this stuff on it and I want to get it off, however, some of it is covering some of the chips, and I need to be able to identify the components. another worse problem is that one part of the circuit has a SIM card, which is also covered in white epoxy which I want to remove without damaging the SIM card. now the SIM card being encased in plastic means this is a whole lot of "fun" any suggestions? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Dec 13 14:44:02 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 15:44:02 -0500 Subject: Happy DEC-10 everyone! In-Reply-To: References: <3DB0909E-FB6B-4A20-B789-8AA9F66AE858@lunar-tokyo.net> <4D029FF4.1090409@neurotica.com> <20101211091155.GB6554@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 3:31 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > As it happens, we are about to send out the artwork for the second revision > of the Massbus Disk Emulator this week Cool! > Once we have more than the breadboard prototype running (on the 2065 that > Ian mentioned up-thread), we'll hook one to a KS-10, as well as to our > PDP-11/70 and PDP-11/45, and see what we can shake loose. Do you have an RH-750 and 11/750 to test against? (My first 11/750 ran for years with an RH750 and TU78 next to an SI-9900 w/CMI interface for disk - when my employer closed, I was able to rescue the CPU, but the tape drive was too large and needed 220VAC so was not rescued). I'm sure in the grand scheme of MASSBUS-using systems, the 11/750 is a thin sliver of a minority, but they were out there. Hopefully any proper MASSBUS emulator should work without any strangeness. -ethan From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Dec 13 15:01:10 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 13:01:10 -0800 Subject: Check your collections ... In-Reply-To: <97651BEA783A414295359E7C515BA25B@ANTONIOPC> References: <4D0586C7.7070102@snarc.net> <97651BEA783A414295359E7C515BA25B@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: From: arcarlini at iee.org Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 12:27 AM > Evan Koblentz [evan at snarc.net] wrote: >> So, check your collections .... one never >> knows what one might find among one's own collection after drinking a >> lot of beer and bourbon. > Finally ... a fun way to hunt down that ever-elusive PDP-1 :-) Hey, PDP-1's are easy (120 made). I want to track down a PDP-6! (Only 23, and all gone.) Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Dec 13 15:02:15 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 13:02:15 -0800 Subject: Happy DEC-10 everyone! In-Reply-To: References: <3DB0909E-FB6B-4A20-B789-8AA9F66AE858@lunar-tokyo.net> <4D029FF4.1090409@neurotica.com> <20101211091155.GB6554@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rich Alderson > Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 12:31 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Happy DEC-10 everyone! > > From: Pontus Pihlgren > Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 1:12 AM > > On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 05:37:33PM -0500, William Donzelli wrote: > > >> The problem with running a KS10 is that there is a very restrictive > >> list of disks and tapes it will play with. > > > Didn't Ian and the guys at the Living Computer Museum (formerly > > PDPplanet) work on a massbuss "emulator" of sorts? That should be > > modifiable to work with the 18 bit KS-10 version? > > > Or am I missing something? I'm unsure what happened with that > project. > > As it happens, we are about to send out the artwork for the second > revision > of the Massbus Disk Emulator this week (a project which predates Ian by > a > couple of years!). We've been waiting for Rabbit to bring out a faster > processor than the one in the original design, and changing the way > that > register shadowing is done. > > There is no such thing, by the way, as "the 18 bit KS-10 version"-- > Massbus > is Massbus, no matter whether it is talking to an RH20 on a KL-10, an > RH70 > on a PDP-11/70, an RH15 on a PDP-15, or an RH11 on other PDP-11 models. > They're *all* 18 bits of data, though the 16-bit systems don't use 2 > bits > of that. > > Anyway, the MDE looks like a string of disks on a Massbus channel (only > RP06 currently, but that will change soon) to the vintage system. Disk > images are represented as directories of track files on an FTP server. > (100baseT Ethernet keeps up with Massbus very nicely.) > > Once we have more than the breadboard prototype running (on the 2065 > that > Ian mentioned up-thread), we'll hook one to a KS-10, as well as to our > PDP-11/70 and PDP-11/45, and see what we can shake loose. > I'm looking forward to qualifying it on our VAX-11s, too, so we can run Ultrix on one of them. -- Ian From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Dec 13 15:03:52 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 13:03:52 -0800 Subject: Happy DEC-10 everyone! In-Reply-To: References: <3DB0909E-FB6B-4A20-B789-8AA9F66AE858@lunar-tokyo.net> <4D029FF4.1090409@neurotica.com> <20101211091155.GB6554@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks > Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 12:44 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Happy DEC-10 everyone! > > On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 3:31 PM, Rich Alderson > wrote: > > As it happens, we are about to send out the artwork for the second > revision > > of the Massbus Disk Emulator this week > > Cool! > > > Once we have more than the breadboard prototype running (on the 2065 > that > > Ian mentioned up-thread), we'll hook one to a KS-10, as well as to > our > > PDP-11/70 and PDP-11/45, and see what we can shake loose. > > Do you have an RH-750 and 11/750 to test against? (My first 11/750 > ran for years with an RH750 and TU78 next to an SI-9900 w/CMI > interface for disk - when my employer closed, I was able to rescue the > CPU, but the tape drive was too large and needed 220VAC so was not > rescued). > > I'm sure in the grand scheme of MASSBUS-using systems, the 11/750 is a > thin sliver of a minority, but they were out there. Hopefully any > proper MASSBUS emulator should work without any strangeness. > Our emails crossed. :-) We do have an RH780 on each of our VAX-11/78x's. We're currently using CI for OpenVMS 6.2 -- Ian From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Dec 13 15:05:34 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 13:05:34 -0800 Subject: Happy DEC-10 everyone! In-Reply-To: References: <3DB0909E-FB6B-4A20-B789-8AA9F66AE858@lunar-tokyo.net> <4D029FF4.1090409@neurotica.com> <20101211091155.GB6554@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: From: Ethan Dicks Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 12:44 PM On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 3:31 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> As it happens, we are about to send out the artwork for the second revision >> of the Massbus Disk Emulator this week > Cool! >> Once we have more than the breadboard prototype running (on the 2065 that >> Ian mentioned up-thread), we'll hook one to a KS-10, as well as to our >> PDP-11/70 and PDP-11/45, and see what we can shake loose. > Do you have an RH-750 and 11/750 to test against? (My first 11/750 > ran for years with an RH750 and TU78 next to an SI-9900 w/CMI > interface for disk - when my employer closed, I was able to rescue the > CPU, but the tape drive was too large and needed 220VAC so was not > rescued). > I'm sure in the grand scheme of MASSBUS-using systems, the 11/750 is a > thin sliver of a minority, but they were out there. Hopefully any > proper MASSBUS emulator should work without any strangeness. I knew I forgot a system. We have an RH780 in each 11/785, so we'll be testing against that, too. We don't have an 11/750 in the collection, or we'd try that, too. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Dec 13 15:10:36 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 13:10:36 -0800 Subject: Happy DEC-10 everyone! In-Reply-To: References: <3DB0909E-FB6B-4A20-B789-8AA9F66AE858@lunar-tokyo.net> <4D029FF4.1090409@neurotica.com> <20101211091155.GB6554@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rich Alderson > Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 1:06 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Happy DEC-10 everyone! > > From: Ethan Dicks > Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 12:44 PM > > On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 3:31 PM, Rich Alderson > wrote: > > >> As it happens, we are about to send out the artwork for the second > revision > >> of the Massbus Disk Emulator this week > > > Cool! > > >> Once we have more than the breadboard prototype running (on the 2065 > that > >> Ian mentioned up-thread), we'll hook one to a KS-10, as well as to > our > >> PDP-11/70 and PDP-11/45, and see what we can shake loose. > > > Do you have an RH-750 and 11/750 to test against? (My first 11/750 > > ran for years with an RH750 and TU78 next to an SI-9900 w/CMI > > interface for disk - when my employer closed, I was able to rescue > the > > CPU, but the tape drive was too large and needed 220VAC so was not > > rescued). > > > I'm sure in the grand scheme of MASSBUS-using systems, the 11/750 is > a > > thin sliver of a minority, but they were out there. Hopefully any > > proper MASSBUS emulator should work without any strangeness. > > I knew I forgot a system. We have an RH780 in each 11/785, so we'll be > testing against that, too. > > We don't have an 11/750 in the collection, or we'd try that, too. > And if someone wants to give us one.... ;-) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Dec 13 15:11:34 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 16:11:34 -0500 Subject: Happy DEC-10 everyone! In-Reply-To: References: <3DB0909E-FB6B-4A20-B789-8AA9F66AE858@lunar-tokyo.net> <4D029FF4.1090409@neurotica.com> <20101211091155.GB6554@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 4:05 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Ethan Dicks >> Do you have an RH-750 and 11/750 to test against? > > I knew I forgot a system. ?We have an RH780 in each 11/785, so we'll be > testing against that, too. Good to hear. > We don't have an 11/750 in the collection, or we'd try that, too. Knowing it's going to be tested on an RH780 is close enough for my interests. I've only had my own hands on the RH11 and the RH750, but except for overall throughput limitations on the RH11 (which, for the uninitiated, is why the RM02 spins slower than the RM03), what works on one, works on all. I look forward to hearing news of success! -ethan From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Dec 13 15:27:27 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 13:27:27 -0800 Subject: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: References: <4D00109D.6010103@bitsavers.org> <4D01A403.5020301@mail.msu.edu> <4D01B6B9.5060405@brouhaha.com> <4D01B8F2.3050400@mail.msu.edu> <4D02AE4E.205@brouhaha.com> <4D042D53.1090507@brouhaha.com> <4D049285.10007@brouhaha.com> <4D052B91.5010707@brouhaha.com> <4D05B76B.3080100@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4D068FBF.7030309@brouhaha.com> Richard wrote: > If you approach it as "dump a bunch of listings in their face and lock > them in a room with noone to talk to", then yeah. OK, now we seem to be in agreement. :-) From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Dec 13 15:32:19 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 21:32:19 -0000 Subject: Looking For MicroVMS Pre 4.6 Message-ID: <004b01cb9b0d$39ecee20$adc6ca60$@ntlworld.com> Does anyone have any MicroVMS versions pre version 4.6? I'd love to find a version 4.1 if anyone has it. Regards Rob From tlindner at macmess.org Mon Dec 13 10:06:01 2010 From: tlindner at macmess.org (tim lindner) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 08:06:01 -0800 Subject: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <4D049285.10007@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <1jtfic2.df817lhdvgaoM%tlindner@macmess.org> Eric Smith wrote: > It is *more* drudgery to correct someone else's errors doing this than > to type it myself. Speaking from experience, dealing with data entered > *and* proofread by supposedly skilled data entry operators. > > I would be absolutely delighted if someone could prove me wrong. I run a community proofreading project. (http://cocomag.dyndns.org) And if you apply enough game mechanics proof reading someone elses work can feel less drudgery. Can the shear number of tasks I am getting people to do for free be considered proof? -- tim lindner tlindner at macmess.org Bright From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 13 16:27:37 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 14:27:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <4D0607AA.25687.5E2476@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4D0607AA.25687.5E2476@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20101213142338.E97085@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 13 Dec 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Another skill to be learned was the ability to block-print neatly and > legibly, differentiating "1" from "I", "0" from "O", etc. It was all > uppercase, so that simplified things somewhat. To this day, I still > put a line through my "7", although I've dropped the stroke through > my zero as most people find it to be confusing. A long time ago, there used to be some people who put slashes through the letter 'o', to differentiate it from the numeral '0'. Are they ALL dead now? One of MICROS~1's early attempts at OCR on their order forms gave examples of how they wanted the letters formed, and included slashing the letter 'o'! How many people still use the Palm "Grafitti" system? From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Dec 13 16:39:31 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 14:39:31 -0800 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <20101213142338.E97085@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4D0607AA.25687.5E2476@cclist.sydex.com> <20101213142338.E97085@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <689d7b7200c9348a80d1a8249cfae569@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Dec 13, at 2:27 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 13 Dec 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Another skill to be learned was the ability to block-print neatly and >> legibly, differentiating "1" from "I", "0" from "O", etc. It was all >> uppercase, so that simplified things somewhat. To this day, I still >> put a line through my "7", although I've dropped the stroke through >> my zero as most people find it to be confusing. > > A long time ago, there used to be some people who put slashes through > the > letter 'o', to differentiate it from the numeral '0'. Are they ALL > dead > now? > > One of MICROS~1's early attempts at OCR on their order forms gave > examples > of how they wanted the letters formed, and included slashing the letter > 'o'! Years ago as an undergrad, as I was slashing my zeros and sevens (as I still do), a grad student tried to lecture me "decorate the alphabet, not the numeral system". Which may be a nice idea in principal, but it run counters to better-established conventions. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Dec 13 16:41:14 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 17:41:14 -0500 Subject: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <4D068FBF.7030309@brouhaha.com> References: <4D00109D.6010103@bitsavers.org> <4D01A403.5020301@mail.msu.edu> <4D01B6B9.5060405@brouhaha.com> <4D01B8F2.3050400@mail.msu.edu> <4D02AE4E.205@brouhaha.com> <4D042D53.1090507@brouhaha.com> <4D049285.10007@brouhaha.com> <4D052B91.5010707@brouhaha.com> <4D05B76B.3080100@brouhaha.com> <4D068FBF.7030309@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > OK, now we seem to be in agreement. ?:-) I am not (even though I really don't have a dog in this fight). Familiarity with the material does not buy a proofreader all that much. -- Will From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Dec 13 16:54:21 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 14:54:21 -0800 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <689d7b7200c9348a80d1a8249cfae569@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <4D0607AA.25687.5E2476@cclist.sydex.com> <20101213142338.E97085@shell.lmi.net> <689d7b7200c9348a80d1a8249cfae569@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <9272e551e38933bf73e7302c65e9bf01@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Dec 13, at 2:39 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2010 Dec 13, at 2:27 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Mon, 13 Dec 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> Another skill to be learned was the ability to block-print neatly and >>> legibly, differentiating "1" from "I", "0" from "O", etc. It was all >>> uppercase, so that simplified things somewhat. To this day, I still >>> put a line through my "7", although I've dropped the stroke through >>> my zero as most people find it to be confusing. >> >> A long time ago, there used to be some people who put slashes through >> the >> letter 'o', to differentiate it from the numeral '0'. Are they ALL >> dead >> now? >> >> One of MICROS~1's early attempts at OCR on their order forms gave >> examples >> of how they wanted the letters formed, and included slashing the >> letter >> 'o'! > > Years ago as an undergrad, as I was slashing my zeros and sevens (as I > still do), a grad student tried to lecture me "decorate the alphabet, > not the numeral system". Which may be a nice idea in principal, but it > run counters to better-established conventions. ^^^^^^^^^^^^ whoops: runs counter to Did IBM put the dot in the middle of the Oh or the Zero on 3270 terminals? - I can't remember which. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 13 16:58:27 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 14:58:27 -0800 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <20101213142338.E97085@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4D0607AA.25687.5E2476@cclist.sydex.com>, <20101213142338.E97085@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4D063493.27834.10D95FA@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Dec 2010 at 14:27, Fred Cisin wrote: > A long time ago, there used to be some people who put slashes through > the letter 'o', to differentiate it from the numeral '0'. Are they > ALL dead now? > > One of MICROS~1's early attempts at OCR on their order forms gave > examples of how they wanted the letters formed, and included slashing > the letter 'o'! I used a coding form where the convention was pre-printed on the form. Not that anyone red the green stuff... I've always wondered what the Scandanavians do to differentiate 0 from O from ?. Don't some Micros~1 or IBM character sets use a dot in the middle of a zero? --Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Dec 13 17:02:22 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 15:02:22 -0800 Subject: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: References: <4D00109D.6010103@bitsavers.org> <4D01A403.5020301@mail.msu.edu> <4D01B6B9.5060405@brouhaha.com> <4D01B8F2.3050400@mail.msu.edu> <4D02AE4E.205@brouhaha.com> <4D042D53.1090507@brouhaha.com> <4D049285.10007@brouhaha.com> <4D052B91.5010707@brouhaha.com> <4D05B76B.3080100@brouhaha.com> <4D068FBF.7030309@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli > Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 2:41 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Tek 4051 firmware listing > > > OK, now we seem to be in agreement. ?:-) > > I am not (even though I really don't have a dog in this fight). > Familiarity with the material does not buy a proofreader all that > much. > I once had to proofread Dutch. I was once fairly fluent in German and I'm familiar with French and Italian (classical singing career, former life), but the word structure of Dutch seemed wildly different from anything I'd ever seen before. Fortunately the job was effectively one of transcription (desktop publishing stuff) so I could compare the original with the digital version. But man, that was slow.... -- Ian From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Dec 13 17:03:40 2010 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 12:03:40 +1300 Subject: apple Lisa2. One working!! - one to go? References: <759A6D98F2824663B6CE977B99F48988@portajara> Message-ID: Hi, Just an update on this project. I've found someone local (5 mins drive) who has a Lisa 2/10 in storage plus spare parts and spare boards. After Xmas we'll remove the Lisa from storage and I should be able to swap out the IWM and ROM to see if that tells us anything. His Lisa has a non-working PSU and I have a spare working one so some swapping might be on the cards depending on what's there. I'l let you know how it goes. Thanks for all the help so far. Terry From lynchaj at yahoo.com Mon Dec 13 17:08:38 2010 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 18:08:38 -0500 Subject: 68k s-100 board was [Re Decent Motorola 68000 - 68010 book] Message-ID: <4D98CA60B8C94E16A00191CE6C569520@andrewdesktop> Andrew, The douglasgoodall website required a log in before viewing. Status posted anywhere else? Thanks Rob -----REPLY----- Hi You can check the N8VEM wiki for schematics, PCB layout, and parts list. http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder ¶m=S-100%2068K%20CPU Otherwise the status of the S-100 68K CPU board is we've got a team of builders schematic captured & reviewed PCB layout done and verified 5 PCB prototypes ordered prototype PCBs sent to builders lead builder is currently doing build and test project wiki set up various pieces of TUTOR 1.3 software gathered We are not done with build and test. No ETA. There are some minor changes and items found so far but nothing of consequence. No cuts and jumpers identified for the board. After prototype build and test is done, we are going to focus on the software. Probably custom test/debug/monitor EPROMs first, then TUTOR 1.3 with a goal of CP/M 68K (maybe) The plan is the PCBs will be available for $20 each plus shipping. They are for educational purposes only. No kits or pre-built boards. There is no ETA for the manufactured PCBs. That's about it. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Dec 13 17:30:33 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 15:30:33 -0800 Subject: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: References: <4D00109D.6010103@bitsavers.org> <4D01A403.5020301@mail.msu.edu> <4D01B6B9.5060405@brouhaha.com> <4D01B8F2.3050400@mail.msu.edu> <4D02AE4E.205@brouhaha.com> <4D042D53.1090507@brouhaha.com> <4D049285.10007@brouhaha.com> <4D052B91.5010707@brouhaha.com> <4D05B76B.3080100@brouhaha.com> <4D068FBF.7030309@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4D06AC99.4000306@brouhaha.com> William Donzelli wrote: > I am not (even though I really don't have a dog in this fight). > Familiarity with the material does not buy a proofreader all that > much. Hmmm... Apparently I misunderstood your post about entering the tube substitution index. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Dec 13 18:21:46 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 16:21:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <20101213142338.E97085@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4D0607AA.25687.5E2476@cclist.sydex.com> <20101213142338.E97085@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Dec 2010, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 13 Dec 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Another skill to be learned was the ability to block-print neatly and >> legibly, differentiating "1" from "I", "0" from "O", etc. It was all >> uppercase, so that simplified things somewhat. To this day, I still >> put a line through my "7", although I've dropped the stroke through >> my zero as most people find it to be confusing. > > A long time ago, there used to be some people who put slashes through the > letter 'o', to differentiate it from the numeral '0'. Are they ALL dead > now? > > One of MICROS~1's early attempts at OCR on their order forms gave examples > of how they wanted the letters formed, and included slashing the letter > 'o'! I forget who, but someone wanted the letter 'O' to have a dot in the center. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Dec 13 20:05:05 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 00:05:05 -0200 Subject: apple Lisa2. One working!! - one to go? References: Message-ID: > An example to ilustrate the talk: http://tabalabs.com.br/c64/sx > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > Definitely interesting and somewhat relevant, but not quite the same > thing; that deals with the common problem of replacing 24pin 8K 23xx type > ROMs (or 68764/66 EPROMs) with a 27xx equivalent EPROM (with multiple > images in this example), whereas Tony was talking about replacing a 2716 > with a larger 27xx EPROM, not quite the same thing or adapter. Thanks Mike, but please, read again: > An example to ILUSTRATE the talk: http://tabalabs.com.br/c64/sx > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ :o) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Dec 13 20:19:22 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 00:19:22 -0200 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing References: , <4D0607AA.25687.5E2476@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D060C82.9181.711084@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <458826A4F09F447994BF3D949251EA94@portajara> > special pens?). Try as I might, I never got any better than "What > the hell is this?" grades in penmanship. Phrase of the week :o) I suffer from the same thing :o) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Dec 13 20:21:16 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 00:21:16 -0200 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing References: , <4D0607AA.25687.5E2476@cclist.sydex.com> <20101213142338.E97085@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <86A5A3EBCCC14C529345B9C90796C65F@portajara> > How many people still use the Palm "Grafitti" system? Me, and write pretty fast From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 13 21:03:18 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 20:03:18 -0700 Subject: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: References: <4D00109D.6010103@bitsavers.org> <4D01A403.5020301@mail.msu.edu> <4D01B6B9.5060405@brouhaha.com> <4D01B8F2.3050400@mail.msu.edu> <4D02AE4E.205@brouhaha.com> <4D042D53.1090507@brouhaha.com> <4D049285.10007@brouhaha.com> <4D052B91.5010707@brouhaha.com> <4D05B76B.3080100@brouhaha.com> <4D068FBF.7030309@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > Familiarity with the material does not buy a proofreader all that > much. ...and even if it does buy something, I'm not convinced that it can't be explained in a short document. IOW, I'm not convinced you need to know how to write 6800 assembly code in order to accurately transcribe it. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Dec 13 21:24:01 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 03:24:01 +0000 Subject: 3B1 emulator: IT BOOTS! (sort of) Message-ID: <4D06E351.50301@philpem.me.uk> They say "A picture says a thousand words"... well, here's a screenshot of the current version of FreeBee booting the System Loader and Diagnostics disc for the 3B1: http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/philpem/Screenshot.png And for those who don't believe anything unless they see it moving: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0sRkJty6wo :) To make this work... * Install the LibSDL (Simple DirectMedia Layer) development libraries, and a C compiler. On Debian/Ubuntu, you want to 'apt-get install' build-essential and libsdl*-dev. You'll also want make, sed, awk and grep, which should auto-install when build-essential installs. On Windows, you're on your own (though a homebuilt SDL and mingw32 should work... in theory). * Grab the FreeBee source code: http://hg.philpem.me.uk/3b1emu/archive/tip.tar.bz2 And the ROM images: http://philpem.me.uk/code/3b1emu/3b1_roms.zip * Grab ImageDisk from Dave Dunfield's website, and the Version 3.51 Diagnostics Disk (.IMD file) from Bitsavers * Use Dosemu, DOSBox, or a conveniently located DOS or Windows box to convert the .IMD into a .BIN file: IMDU 01_DIAGS.IMD 01_DIAGS.BIN /B Copy the BIN file onto the Linux box. * Untar the tarball, and cd into the directory it creates. * make * Copy the disc image in here, and rename it to 'discim'. * Create a directory called 'roms', and unpack the 14C and 15C binaries (.bin files) into there. Rename them to '14c.bin' and '15c.bin' respectively. * Run: ./freebee * Watch the fun. No, the keyboard isn't emulated (yet), no the hard drive isn't emulated yet, and no, it doesn't boot past the RAM test screen... Keyboard is next on the hitlist, followed by interrupts, masking and the MMU/pagefault traps. I'm looking for other folks to help out with this -- a reasonably experienced 68K coder would be useful, or folks who know how the WD 1010 and 2797 Winchester and FDD controllers behave in 'real life' (unfortunately I don't have a 2797 to breadboard with). Enjoy! -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Mon Dec 13 22:49:08 2010 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 23:49:08 -0500 Subject: handwriting (or the lack thereof) (was: Service bureaus... In-Reply-To: <20101213142338.E97085@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4D0607AA.25687.5E2476@cclist.sydex.com> <20101213142338.E97085@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4D06F744.60807@30below.com> On 12/13/2010 05:27 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 13 Dec 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Another skill to be learned was the ability to block-print neatly and >> legibly, differentiating "1" from "I", "0" from "O", etc. It was all >> uppercase, so that simplified things somewhat. To this day, I still >> put a line through my "7", although I've dropped the stroke through >> my zero as most people find it to be confusing. "Screw 'em." ;-) I still slash my zeros, sevens *and* zees... (My trip to Germany influenced the latter two...) > A long time ago, there used to be some people who put slashes through the > letter 'o', to differentiate it from the numeral '0'. Are they ALL dead > now? Noper, they just moved to Canada. ;-) (I dunno if it's really true, but I remember printing out a page of light bulb jokes from an individual that worked for EDS Canada (Oshawa, IIRC) (on the IBM 3090 mainframes) and found it odd that the oh's were slashed and the zeros were not... > One of MICROS~1's early attempts at OCR on their order forms gave examples > of how they wanted the letters formed, and included slashing the letter > 'o'! I thought that was the Ooo Ess Gubbermint... ;-) Their EZ1040 form of two decades past used a system as such, IIRC... (but I might not) > How many people still use the Palm "Grafitti" system? /me ashamedly raises a hand... and not-so-ashamedly wishes one could still buy a smartfone that recognizes it... damn crackberries... Laterz, "Merch" From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Tue Dec 14 00:59:38 2010 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 22:59:38 -0800 Subject: 3B1 emulator: IT BOOTS! (sort of) In-Reply-To: <4D06E351.50301@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <9308DE793BE.000000BAn0body.h0me@inbox.com> That's pretty freaking awesome. Kudos, boy. That's pretty slick. > -----Original Message----- > From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > Sent: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 03:24:01 +0000 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: 3B1 emulator: IT BOOTS! (sort of) > > They say "A picture says a thousand words"... well, here's a screenshot > of the current version of FreeBee booting the System Loader and > Diagnostics disc for the 3B1: > > http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/philpem/Screenshot.png > > And for those who don't believe anything unless they see it moving: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0sRkJty6wo > > :) > > > To make this work... > > * Install the LibSDL (Simple DirectMedia Layer) development libraries, > and a C compiler. On Debian/Ubuntu, you want to 'apt-get install' > build-essential and libsdl*-dev. You'll also want make, sed, awk and > grep, which should auto-install when build-essential installs. On > Windows, you're on your own (though a homebuilt SDL and mingw32 should > work... in theory). > > * Grab the FreeBee source code: > http://hg.philpem.me.uk/3b1emu/archive/tip.tar.bz2 > And the ROM images: > http://philpem.me.uk/code/3b1emu/3b1_roms.zip > > * Grab ImageDisk from Dave Dunfield's website, and the Version 3.51 > Diagnostics Disk (.IMD file) from Bitsavers > > * Use Dosemu, DOSBox, or a conveniently located DOS or Windows box to > convert the .IMD into a .BIN file: > IMDU 01_DIAGS.IMD 01_DIAGS.BIN /B > Copy the BIN file onto the Linux box. > > * Untar the tarball, and cd into the directory it creates. > > * make > > * Copy the disc image in here, and rename it to 'discim'. > > * Create a directory called 'roms', and unpack the 14C and 15C binaries > (.bin files) into there. Rename them to '14c.bin' and '15c.bin' > respectively. > > * Run: > ./freebee > > * Watch the fun. > > No, the keyboard isn't emulated (yet), no the hard drive isn't emulated > yet, and no, it doesn't boot past the RAM test screen... Keyboard is > next on the hitlist, followed by interrupts, masking and the > MMU/pagefault traps. > > I'm looking for other folks to help out with this -- a reasonably > experienced 68K coder would be useful, or folks who know how the WD 1010 > and 2797 Winchester and FDD controllers behave in 'real life' > (unfortunately I don't have a 2797 to breadboard with). > > Enjoy! > > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ ____________________________________________________________ GET FREE 5GB EMAIL - Check out spam free email with many cool features! Visit http://www.inbox.com/email to find out more! From quapla at xs4all.nl Tue Dec 14 01:14:55 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 08:14:55 +0100 Subject: 3B1 emulator: IT BOOTS! (sort of) In-Reply-To: <4D06E351.50301@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D06E351.50301@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <29da18476af8d049fe43e2669547987f.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hmm, that bring back some taughts of the past.... Very nicely done! Ed > They say "A picture says a thousand words"... well, here's a screenshot > of the current version of FreeBee booting the System Loader and > Diagnostics disc for the 3B1: > > http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/philpem/Screenshot.png > > And for those who don't believe anything unless they see it moving: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0sRkJty6wo > > :) > > > To make this work... > > * Install the LibSDL (Simple DirectMedia Layer) development libraries, > and a C compiler. On Debian/Ubuntu, you want to 'apt-get install' > build-essential and libsdl*-dev. You'll also want make, sed, awk and > grep, which should auto-install when build-essential installs. On > Windows, you're on your own (though a homebuilt SDL and mingw32 should > work... in theory). > > * Grab the FreeBee source code: > http://hg.philpem.me.uk/3b1emu/archive/tip.tar.bz2 > And the ROM images: > http://philpem.me.uk/code/3b1emu/3b1_roms.zip > > * Grab ImageDisk from Dave Dunfield's website, and the Version 3.51 > Diagnostics Disk (.IMD file) from Bitsavers > > * Use Dosemu, DOSBox, or a conveniently located DOS or Windows box to > convert the .IMD into a .BIN file: > IMDU 01_DIAGS.IMD 01_DIAGS.BIN /B > Copy the BIN file onto the Linux box. > > * Untar the tarball, and cd into the directory it creates. > > * make > > * Copy the disc image in here, and rename it to 'discim'. > > * Create a directory called 'roms', and unpack the 14C and 15C binaries > (.bin files) into there. Rename them to '14c.bin' and '15c.bin' > respectively. > > * Run: > ./freebee > > * Watch the fun. > > No, the keyboard isn't emulated (yet), no the hard drive isn't emulated > yet, and no, it doesn't boot past the RAM test screen... Keyboard is > next on the hitlist, followed by interrupts, masking and the > MMU/pagefault traps. > > I'm looking for other folks to help out with this -- a reasonably > experienced 68K coder would be useful, or folks who know how the WD 1010 > and 2797 Winchester and FDD controllers behave in 'real life' > (unfortunately I don't have a 2797 to breadboard with). > > Enjoy! > > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From spedraja at ono.com Tue Dec 14 01:19:05 2010 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 08:19:05 +0100 Subject: 3B1 emulator: IT BOOTS! (sort of) In-Reply-To: <4D06E351.50301@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D06E351.50301@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: Great advance. Hope to see Unix loading soon :-) ----- Sergio http://es.linkedin.com/in/sergiopedraja/ 2010/12/14 Philip Pemberton > They say "A picture says a thousand words"... well, here's a screenshot of > the current version of FreeBee booting the System Loader and Diagnostics > disc for the 3B1: > > http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/philpem/Screenshot.png > > And for those who don't believe anything unless they see it moving: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0sRkJty6wo > > :) > > > To make this work... > > * Install the LibSDL (Simple DirectMedia Layer) development libraries, and > a C compiler. On Debian/Ubuntu, you want to 'apt-get install' > build-essential and libsdl*-dev. You'll also want make, sed, awk and grep, > which should auto-install when build-essential installs. On Windows, you're > on your own (though a homebuilt SDL and mingw32 should work... in theory). > > * Grab the FreeBee source code: > http://hg.philpem.me.uk/3b1emu/archive/tip.tar.bz2 > And the ROM images: > http://philpem.me.uk/code/3b1emu/3b1_roms.zip > > * Grab ImageDisk from Dave Dunfield's website, and the Version 3.51 > Diagnostics Disk (.IMD file) from Bitsavers > > * Use Dosemu, DOSBox, or a conveniently located DOS or Windows box to > convert the .IMD into a .BIN file: > IMDU 01_DIAGS.IMD 01_DIAGS.BIN /B > Copy the BIN file onto the Linux box. > > * Untar the tarball, and cd into the directory it creates. > > * make > > * Copy the disc image in here, and rename it to 'discim'. > > * Create a directory called 'roms', and unpack the 14C and 15C binaries > (.bin files) into there. Rename them to '14c.bin' and '15c.bin' > respectively. > > * Run: > ./freebee > > * Watch the fun. > > No, the keyboard isn't emulated (yet), no the hard drive isn't emulated > yet, and no, it doesn't boot past the RAM test screen... Keyboard is next on > the hitlist, followed by interrupts, masking and the MMU/pagefault traps. > > I'm looking for other folks to help out with this -- a reasonably > experienced 68K coder would be useful, or folks who know how the WD 1010 and > 2797 Winchester and FDD controllers behave in 'real life' (unfortunately I > don't have a 2797 to breadboard with). > > Enjoy! > > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ > From nico at farumdata.dk Tue Dec 14 02:01:47 2010 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 09:01:47 +0100 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing References: , <4D0607AA.25687.5E2476@cclist.sydex.com> <20101213142338.E97085@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <3BCA5A538B7C464295896538F5CD207D@udvikling> > On Mon, 13 Dec 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > A long time ago, there used to be some people who put slashes through the > letter 'o', to differentiate it from the numeral '0'. Are they ALL dead > now? There still are. At least about 5 million of them, as the ? is a danish letter. It is very important, because "beer" without the ? would spell "l". Can hardly say "I want to order a bottle of l" :-) From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 14 02:16:15 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 00:16:15 -0800 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <3BCA5A538B7C464295896538F5CD207D@udvikling> References: , <3BCA5A538B7C464295896538F5CD207D@udvikling> Message-ID: <4D06B74F.6494.30C417B@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Dec 2010 at 9:01, Nico de Jong wrote: > There still are. At least about 5 million of them, as the ? is a > danish letter. It is very important, because "beer" without the ? > would spell "l". Can hardly say "I want to order a bottle of l" :-) Not my question (maybe Fred's?). Mine was "How did the Danes, Swedes and Norwegians differentiate "O" from "?" and zero when they wrote on coding forms? --Chuck From nico at farumdata.dk Tue Dec 14 02:23:28 2010 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 09:23:28 +0100 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing References: , <3BCA5A538B7C464295896538F5CD207D@udvikling> <4D06B74F.6494.30C417B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <8A0A150BE5AC4AF9B57B706547E2C405@udvikling> On 14 Dec 2010 at 9:01, Nico de Jong wrote: >> There still are. At least about 5 million of them, as the ? is a >> danish letter. It is very important, because "beer" without the ? >> would spell "l". Can hardly say "I want to order a bottle of l" :-) >Not my question (maybe Fred's?). >Mine was "How did the Danes, Swedes and Norwegians differentiate "O" >from "?" and zero when they wrote on coding forms? Most colleagues put a hyphen through the O (Oh), whereas a 0 (zero) was left "as is" From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Dec 14 02:27:15 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 00:27:15 -0800 Subject: handwriting (or the lack thereof) (was: Service bureaus... In-Reply-To: <4D06F744.60807@30below.com> References: , <4D0607AA.25687.5E2476@cclist.sydex.com> <20101213142338.E97085@shell.lmi.net> <4D06F744.60807@30below.com> Message-ID: <2fbb5a042bd0d3a77cc93ba59dc93f5d@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Dec 13, at 8:49 PM, Roger Merchberger wrote: > On 12/13/2010 05:27 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> A long time ago, there used to be some people who put slashes through >> the >> letter 'o', to differentiate it from the numeral '0'. Are they ALL >> dead >> now? > > Noper, they just moved to Canada. ;-) (I dunno if it's really true, > but I remember printing out a page of light bulb jokes from an > individual that worked for EDS Canada (Oshawa, IIRC) (on the IBM 3090 > mainframes) and found it odd that the oh's were slashed and the zeros > were not... Nothing to do with Canada to my experience, more likely an IBMism. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Dec 14 04:41:49 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 11:41:49 +0100 (CET) Subject: Unknown TI logic series In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Dec 2010, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Regarding the SN1400 series though, the 74H and 74L variants are present in > the 1969 TI TTL databook, a little before or around the same time as the > noted SN1400 units. There were lots of other TTL series being produced by > other manufacturers, but the SN1400 one seems odd coming from TI, who had > established the 7400 series years earlier, and the application in a > calculator would or could be adequately covered by the standard series. Yeah, and I think that it doesn't make sense to have several manufacturers produce (i.e. TI, Motorola, PH (whatever they are, at least neither Philips nor Siemens)) a specialized series derived from the 54xx/74xx just for some calculators. Maybe they used rejects from production and labelled them differently, or maybe they used hand-picked examples. > Just to see if anything recent was out there, I went looking on the web for > other references to the SN3900 series and found three sites: one in another The Canon Canola 1210 for example uses the SN3900 and SN4500 series, IIRC. And they don't look like TTL at all. I think that I have some pictures from that machine. >> them at 7 and 14 or 8 and 16 for TTL which did simplify layout, but there >> are lots of exceptions >> even inside the TTL product space. And sometimes there were good reasons >> for the >> exceptions, other times I think it was just internal squabbling :-) > > The 7490 was one that always bugged me, very common and one of the first 2 or > 3 IC types I ever used (pins 5/Vcc and 10/GND). Historically, the first SN TTL-ICs had their supply pins in the middle because they used flat-packs (one would call them SMD today) and not DIPs which were used later. The SN54xx series was an evolution from the three-digit series (SN54x), i.e. an SN5400 was like an SN540 but in a bigger package (something like four instead of three NANDs), and so on. Christian From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Dec 14 08:00:22 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 06:00:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: 3B1 emulator: IT BOOTS! (sort of) In-Reply-To: <4D06E351.50301@philpem.me.uk> from Philip Pemberton at "Dec 14, 10 03:24:01 am" Message-ID: <201012141400.oBEE0M3f012270@floodgap.com> > They say "A picture says a thousand words"... well, here's a screenshot > of the current version of FreeBee booting the System Loader and > Diagnostics disc for the 3B1: > > http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/philpem/Screenshot.png [...] Nice work, Phil! -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I ... I love you!" "Oh noo! I don't!" -- Awful movie, "Ranma 1/2" --------- From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 14 11:21:06 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 09:21:06 -0800 Subject: handwriting (or the lack thereof) (was: Service bureaus... In-Reply-To: <2fbb5a042bd0d3a77cc93ba59dc93f5d@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <4D06F744.60807@30below.com>, <2fbb5a042bd0d3a77cc93ba59dc93f5d@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4D073702.17658.414AD@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Dec 2010 at 0:27, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > Noper, they just moved to Canada. ;-) (I dunno if it's really true, > > but I remember printing out a page of light bulb jokes from an > > individual that worked for EDS Canada (Oshawa, IIRC) (on the IBM > > 3090 mainframes) and found it odd that the oh's were slashed and the > > zeros were not... > > Nothing to do with Canada to my experience, more likely an IBMism. Not that. My 1960s IBM manuals (mostly S/360) all show coding form samples with slashed zeroes. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 14 11:34:00 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 10:34:00 -0700 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <8A0A150BE5AC4AF9B57B706547E2C405@udvikling> References: , <3BCA5A538B7C464295896538F5CD207D@udvikling> <4D06B74F.6494.30C417B@cclist.sydex.com> <8A0A150BE5AC4AF9B57B706547E2C405@udvikling> Message-ID: In article <8A0A150BE5AC4AF9B57B706547E2C405 at udvikling>, "Nico de Jong" writes: > Most colleagues put a hyphen through the O (Oh), whereas a 0 (zero) was left > "as is" Ken Knowlton's paper on BEFLIX had this, but only in the text intended for consumption by a computer. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dundas at caltech.edu Tue Dec 14 11:56:36 2010 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 09:56:36 -0800 Subject: handwriting (or the lack thereof) (was: Service bureaus... In-Reply-To: <4D073702.17658.414AD@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4D06F744.60807@30below.com>, <2fbb5a042bd0d3a77cc93ba59dc93f5d@cs.ubc.ca> <4D073702.17658.414AD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: At 9:21 AM -0800 12/14/10, Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 14 Dec 2010 at 0:27, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > >> > Noper, they just moved to Canada. ;-) (I dunno if it's really true, >> > but I remember printing out a page of light bulb jokes from an >> > individual that worked for EDS Canada (Oshawa, IIRC) (on the IBM >> > 3090 mainframes) and found it odd that the oh's were slashed and the >> > zeros were not... >> >> Nothing to do with Canada to my experience, more likely an IBMism. > >Not that. My 1960s IBM manuals (mostly S/360) all show coding form >samples with slashed zeroes. (US) Military? I remember one of my bosses (1975) insisted that we slash our Oh's. Not sure of his background, but it could have been military. This was an IBM 1130 shop. John From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Dec 14 12:13:22 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 10:13:22 -0800 Subject: handwriting (or the lack thereof) (was: Service bureaus... In-Reply-To: <4D073702.17658.414AD@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4D06F744.60807@30below.com>, <2fbb5a042bd0d3a77cc93ba59dc93f5d@cs.ubc.ca> <4D073702.17658.414AD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2010 Dec 14, at 9:21 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 14 Dec 2010 at 0:27, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >>> Noper, they just moved to Canada. ;-) (I dunno if it's really true, >>> but I remember printing out a page of light bulb jokes from an >>> individual that worked for EDS Canada (Oshawa, IIRC) (on the IBM >>> 3090 mainframes) and found it odd that the oh's were slashed and the >>> zeros were not... >> >> Nothing to do with Canada to my experience, more likely an IBMism. > > Not that. My 1960s IBM manuals (mostly S/360) all show coding form > samples with slashed zeroes. OK, .. still not a Canadianism, though. Would seem like a strange site-specific mod. Looking at some old docs, it appears it wasn't consistent even within IBM: an early 60's IBM brochure shows an EBCDIC table in which the character zero has a slash, in the same table the zeroes in the punch codes do not have a slash. A 360/370 assembler textbook (Struble/U of Oregon) has assembler listings with the Ohs slashed and the zeroes plain. Are there no IBMers out there that remember whether the dot was in the middle of the Oh or the Zero in 3270/3278 terminals? From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 14 12:25:49 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 10:25:49 -0800 Subject: handwriting (or the lack thereof) (was: Service bureaus... In-Reply-To: References: , <4D073702.17658.414AD@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4D07462D.16075.3F53BB@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Dec 2010 at 10:13, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Are there no IBMers out there that remember whether the dot was in the > middle of the Oh or the Zero in 3270/3278 terminals? I've got a couple of EGA cards whwere it's in the middle of the zero. --Chuck From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Dec 14 12:44:36 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 10:44:36 -0800 Subject: handwriting (or the lack thereof) (was: Service bureaus... In-Reply-To: References: , <4D06F744.60807@30below.com>, <2fbb5a042bd0d3a77cc93ba59dc93f5d@cs.ubc.ca> <4D073702.17658.414AD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: From: Brent Hilpert Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 10:13 AM > On 2010 Dec 14, at 9:21 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 14 Dec 2010 at 0:27, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>>> Noper, they just moved to Canada. ;-) (I dunno if it's really true, >>>> but I remember printing out a page of light bulb jokes from an >>>> individual that worked for EDS Canada (Oshawa, IIRC) (on the IBM >>>> 3090 mainframes) and found it odd that the oh's were slashed and the >>>> zeros were not... >>> Nothing to do with Canada to my experience, more likely an IBMism. >> Not that. My 1960s IBM manuals (mostly S/360) all show coding form >> samples with slashed zeroes. > OK, .. still not a Canadianism, though. Would seem like a strange > site-specific mod. > Looking at some old docs, it appears it wasn't consistent even within > IBM: an early 60's IBM brochure shows an EBCDIC table in which the > character zero has a slash, in the same table the zeroes in the punch > codes do not have a slash. A 360/370 assembler textbook (Struble/U of > Oregon) has assembler listings with the Ohs slashed and the zeroes > plain. > Are there no IBMers out there that remember whether the dot was in the > middle of the Oh or the Zero in 3270/3278 terminals? I first learned to program on an IBM 1401 and a System/360 (running DOS) in 1969, and only worked in IBM-oriented computer labs in college and grad school until I met the DEC-20 in 1977; I continued to be bicomputeral until the Stanford job in 1984. I think that qualifies me as a kind of IMBer. I was taught, as were my various colleagues in the IBM world, to slash my alpha O characters, since alphabetic text was uncommon in data processing and we'd get tired of slashing all those numeric zeroes. One person's experience. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Dec 14 13:11:37 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 11:11:37 -0800 Subject: Unknown TI logic series In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1be914e5561077206eb0c311a7bda755@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Dec 14, at 2:41 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > On Mon, 13 Dec 2010, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> Regarding the SN1400 series though, the 74H and 74L variants are >> present in the 1969 TI TTL databook, a little before or around the >> same time as the noted SN1400 units. There were lots of other TTL >> series being produced by other manufacturers, but the SN1400 one >> seems odd coming from TI, who had established the 7400 series years >> earlier, and the application in a calculator would or could be >> adequately covered by the standard series. > > Yeah, and I think that it doesn't make sense to have several > manufacturers produce (i.e. TI, Motorola, PH (whatever they are, at > least neither Philips nor Siemens)) a specialized series derived from > the 54xx/74xx just for some calculators. Maybe they used rejects from > production and labelled them differently, or maybe they used > hand-picked examples. > >> Just to see if anything recent was out there, I went looking on the >> web for other references to the SN3900 series and found three sites: >> one in another > > The Canon Canola 1210 for example uses the SN3900 and SN4500 series, > IIRC. And they don't look like TTL at all. I think that I have some > pictures from that machine. The 3900, 4500 are definitely DTL. I did obtain a single page containing pinouts and internal schematic for 3900/4500 ICs with one calculator that uses them. I just mentioned those series as another example of TI producing 'oddball' series. >>> them at 7 and 14 or 8 and 16 for TTL which did simplify layout, but >>> there are lots of exceptions >>> even inside the TTL product space. And sometimes there were good >>> reasons for the >>> exceptions, other times I think it was just internal squabbling :-) >> >> The 7490 was one that always bugged me, very common and one of the >> first 2 or 3 IC types I ever used (pins 5/Vcc and 10/GND). > > Historically, the first SN TTL-ICs had their supply pins in the middle > because they used flat-packs (one would call them SMD today) and not > DIPs which were used later. The SN54xx series was an evolution from > the three-digit series (SN54x), i.e. an SN5400 was like an SN540 but > in a bigger package (something like four instead of three NANDs), and > so on. We've had this discussion before. TI's earliest RTL/DTL series were 3-digit (e.g. SN53x, SN51x), but I have never seen evidence that the 5400/7400 series began as 540/740. TI docs I have indicate the series began as 4-digit SN54xx. They were in 14-pin flat-paks, but as you say with power on the center pins, and very different pinouts from the later DIPs. Fairchild claimed to have developed the DIP, most of their early TTL/DTL stuff had power on the corner pins (there are exceptions, and some of their other series such as CTL used other pins). It may be that TI adopted the Fairchild pinouts when TI moved to DIPs. (The weird thing about the 7490 is power is on neither the corner pins (7,14) nor the center pins (4,11). From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 14 13:19:10 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 11:19:10 -0800 Subject: handwriting (or the lack thereof) (was: Service bureaus... In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4D0752AE.17816.702A1C@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Dec 2010 at 10:44, Rich Alderson wrote: > > I first learned to program on an IBM 1401 and a System/360 (running > DOS) in 1969, and only worked in IBM-oriented computer labs in college > and grad school until I met the DEC-20 in 1977; I continued to be > bicomputeral until the Stanford job in 1984. I think that qualifies > me as a kind of IMBer. A quick check in bitsavers IBM collection seems to reveal no particular convention. For example, the 1620 Fortran II manual shows no slashes through either the ohs or the zeroes. Some publications show slashes through the ohs, others through the zeroes. Now that I think about it, since I gave up doing either in my handwriting many years ago, I don't remember which I used. Maybe I can find an old coding form of mine somewhere. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 14 13:28:31 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 11:28:31 -0800 Subject: Unknown TI logic series In-Reply-To: <1be914e5561077206eb0c311a7bda755@cs.ubc.ca> References: , , <1be914e5561077206eb0c311a7bda755@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4D0754DF.16945.78B9E2@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Dec 2010 at 11:11, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Fairchild claimed to have developed the DIP, most of their early > TTL/DTL stuff had power on the corner pins (there are exceptions, and > some of their other series such as CTL used other pins). It may be > that TI adopted the Fairchild pinouts when TI moved to DIPs. > > (The weird thing about the 7490 is power is on neither the corner pins > (7,14) nor the center pins (4,11). Motorola used power pins as 4 and 10 on their 14-pin DIPs for the MTTL I and II series.MTTL III changed that to 7 and 14 (corners). MRTL in plastic DIL appeared to used 4 and 11. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Dec 14 13:31:02 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 14:31:02 -0500 Subject: handwriting (or the lack thereof) (was: Service bureaus... In-Reply-To: <4D0752AE.17816.702A1C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D0752AE.17816.702A1C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > A quick check in bitsavers IBM collection seems to reveal no > particular convention. ?For example, the 1620 Fortran II manual shows > no slashes through either the ohs or the zeroes. Likewise, for IBM terminals, the dot-in-the-center is not consistent. Some have, most do not. I wonder if it was a RFQ feature. -- Will From paco.linux at gmail.com Tue Dec 14 13:36:39 2010 From: paco.linux at gmail.com (Paco Linux) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 20:36:39 +0100 Subject: 3B1 emulator: IT BOOTS! (sort of) In-Reply-To: <4D06E351.50301@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D06E351.50301@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: Congrats Paco -- |_|0|_| |_|_|0| ??? |0|0|0| From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Dec 14 14:13:52 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 15:13:52 -0500 Subject: apple Lisa2. One working!! - one to go? References: Message-ID: Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 00:05:05 -0200 From: "Alexandre Souza - Listas" Subject: Re: apple Lisa2. One working!! - one to go? > An example to ilustrate the talk: http://tabalabs.com.br/c64/sx > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > Definitely interesting and somewhat relevant, but not quite the same > thing; that deals with the common problem of replacing 24pin 8K 23xx type > ROMs (or 68764/66 EPROMs) with a 27xx equivalent EPROM (with multiple > images in this example), whereas Tony was talking about replacing a 2716 > with a larger 27xx EPROM, not quite the same thing or adapter. Thanks Mike, but please, read again: > An example to ILUSTRATE the talk: http://tabalabs.com.br/c64/sx +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I've read it again, and I'd still say that although it's somewhat relevant it's not what Tony was talking about. Although the pictures and schematic illustrate the general idea of (badly) making this *kind of* adapter (try reprogramming that EPROM ;-), I think it would have been more useful to link to an illustration and schematic of what Tony was actually talking about, i.e. adapting a 2716 (instead of a 2364). You can buy those adapters for $5.00, by the way. Am I missing something? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 14 13:47:42 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 19:47:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: apple Lisa2. One working!! - one to go? In-Reply-To: from "Terry Stewart" at Dec 14, 10 12:03:40 pm Message-ID: > > Hi, > > Just an update on this project. I've found someone local (5 mins drive) who > has a Lisa 2/10 in storage plus spare parts and spare boards. After Xmas I am, as ever, in the wrong country. I've never actually seen a Lisa, and you seem to ahve access to 4 of them... > we'll remove the Lisa from storage and I should be able to swap out the IWM > and ROM to see if that tells us anything. His Lisa has a non-working PSU I would think it's safe to put untested ICs into your machine, but puting anyting into a machine whioch could have PSU provlems seems to be a little risky... However, as (presuambly) you don;'t know these spare chips atr good, if the machine still dcesn't work, you dont; know if the problems is somewhere else entirely, or it is the ROM 9say), but you've not fitted a good one. > and I have a spare working one so some swapping might be on the cards > depending on what's there. I thought the PSU schematics were available. A lot of faults could be _rpeaired_, it's not that complex a supply (althogh SMPSUs are paerhaps not that pleasant for beginners to work on, thay have a lot of live circuitry ('live' as in 'directly connected to the mains), which will giee you a very nasty shock (at best [1] if you do the wrong thing. Oh, and making a mistake can also result in lots of expensive power transistors failing. [1] At worst you won't feel a thing. Ever again. However,m if you want to have a go at fixing the dead PSU, I cna cuggest so things to do there too. Most of which are done with the PSU unplugged from the mains. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 14 13:49:33 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 19:49:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <458826A4F09F447994BF3D949251EA94@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Dec 14, 10 00:19:22 am Message-ID: > > > special pens?). Try as I might, I never got any better than "What > > the hell is this?" grades in penmanship. > > Phrase of the week :o) > > I suffer from the same thing :o) As do I, as certain classic computer entthusiasts can atest... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 14 13:54:17 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 19:54:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 3B1 emulator: IT BOOTS! (sort of) In-Reply-To: <4D06E351.50301@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Dec 14, 10 03:24:01 am Message-ID: > > They say "A picture says a thousand words"... well, here's a screenshot > of the current version of FreeBee booting the System Loader and > Diagnostics disc for the 3B1: OK, waht was the problem? [...] > I'm looking for other folks to help out with this -- a reasonably > experienced 68K coder would be useful, or folks who know how the WD 1010 > and 2797 Winchester and FDD controllers behave in 'real life' > (unfortunately I don't have a 2797 to breadboard with). As you know, I am mch more of a hardware person, but I have talked ot the 1793 etc disk controllers (and the 279x is much the same as a 179x with some of the support chips built-in). If oyu have any specific questions I will see what I can rememebr... I also have the data sheets for both these chips if you don't have them -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 14 14:12:48 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 20:12:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: handwriting (or the lack thereof) (was: Service bureaus... In-Reply-To: <4D07462D.16075.3F53BB@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 14, 10 10:25:49 am Message-ID: > > On 14 Dec 2010 at 10:13, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > Are there no IBMers out there that remember whether the dot was in the > > middle of the Oh or the Zero in 3270/3278 terminals? > > I've got a couple of EGA cards whwere it's in the middle of the zero. I am pretty sure htat's true of the CGA card too. The MDA slashes the zero. All of them leave the 'Oh' unchanged. But f ocruse the PC (5150, etc) tended to be a lot more 'noraml' than most IBM machines. -tony From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Tue Dec 14 14:37:57 2010 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 15:37:57 -0500 Subject: Free to good home: Ultra 1 and Ultra 5 (Montreal, McGill) Message-ID: Hi everybody, I have two Sun UltraSPARC machined to be picked up: a Ultra 1 (512 M RAM, with extra memory modules) and an Ultra 5 (also 512 M RAM). The 5 works for sure, runs NetBSD. These are for pick-up at McGill University in Montreal, contact me off-list if you want them. There might be a SS4 kicking around here as well to be gotten rid of. Contact me off-list. Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 14 14:43:21 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 13:43:21 -0700 Subject: When did RSTS/E get networking? Message-ID: Either as an option from DEC or built-in. Which version? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 14 14:50:16 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 13:50:16 -0700 Subject: When did RSTS/E get networking? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: BTW, Wikipedia implies sometime in version 9, but I was hoping to nail it down to a specific year and the wp entry isn't making that clear. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Dec 14 15:11:21 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 13:11:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: When did RSTS/E get networking? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Dec 2010, Richard wrote: > BTW, Wikipedia implies sometime in version 9, but I was hoping to nail > it down to a specific year and the wp entry isn't making that clear. Define networking. Seriously. Am I correct you are thinking of DECnet/E running over Ethernet, or does over a serial line count? I'll see if I can find my notes on this. I know I have some version info, but not sure if I have actual years. Zane From dundas at caltech.edu Tue Dec 14 15:16:52 2010 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 13:16:52 -0800 Subject: When did RSTS/E get networking? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 1:43 PM -0700 12/14/10, Richard wrote: >Either as an option from DEC or built-in. Which version? The earliest availability of DECnet for RSTS/E that I can find is in V06C. The SPD gives that as optional software. The System Generation manual provides the details. John From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 14 15:57:19 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 14:57:19 -0700 Subject: When did RSTS/E get networking? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , "Zane H. Healy" writes: > On Tue, 14 Dec 2010, Richard wrote: > > > BTW, Wikipedia implies sometime in version 9, but I was hoping to nail > > it down to a specific year and the wp entry isn't making that clear. > > Define networking. Seriously. Connecting two machines for the purpose of sharing files, email, etc. I don't care if its serial lines, parallel ports or ethernet. However, I'm not asking about homebrew solutions (we had one in 1980), I'm asking about officially supported DEC products. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Dec 14 15:57:20 2010 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 10:57:20 +1300 Subject: apple Lisa2. One working!! - one to go? References: Message-ID: <68DFDC71C9B142D4877EB9A4F8CBEA7D@massey.ac.nz> Yes, there is always the possibility that his ROM or IWM is also faulty but we'll see what happens. The PSU "swapping" I was thinking of is that I'll trade him a working Lisa PSU if he'll trade a working I/O board (that is assuming he HAS such a board in the "spare boards" he mentions). I actually took the working PSU in question apart last right and replaced all six of the old filter capacitors. These are the ones I've found tend to blow and smoke eventually. Terry > I would think it's safe to put untested ICs into your machine, but puting > anyting into a machine whioch could have PSU provlems seems to be a > little risky... > > However, as (presuambly) you don;'t know these spare chips atr good, if > the machine still dcesn't work, you dont; know if the problems is > somewhere else entirely, or it is the ROM 9say), but you've not fitted a > good one. >> and I have a spare working one so some swapping might be on the cards >> depending on what's there. > > I thought the PSU schematics were available. A lot of faults could be > _rpeaired_, it's not that complex a supply (althogh SMPSUs are paerhaps > not that pleasant for beginners to work on, thay have a lot of live > circuitry ('live' as in 'directly connected to the mains), which will > giee you a very nasty shock (at best [1] if you do the wrong thing. Oh, > and making a mistake can also result in lots of expensive power > transistors failing. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 14 16:01:32 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 15:01:32 -0700 Subject: When did RSTS/E get networking? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , "John A. Dundas III" writes: > At 1:43 PM -0700 12/14/10, Richard wrote: > >Either as an option from DEC or built-in. Which version? > > The earliest availability of DECnet for RSTS/E that I can find is in > V06C. The SPD gives that as optional software. The System > Generation manual provides the details. Wikipedia says this is 1979 for "DECnet Phase II". -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dundas at caltech.edu Tue Dec 14 16:17:18 2010 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 14:17:18 -0800 Subject: When did RSTS/E get networking? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 3:01 PM -0700 12/14/10, Richard wrote: >In article , > "John A. Dundas III" writes: > >> At 1:43 PM -0700 12/14/10, Richard wrote: >> >Either as an option from DEC or built-in. Which version? >> >> The earliest availability of DECnet for RSTS/E that I can find is in >> V06C. The SPD gives that as optional software. The System >> Generation manual provides the details. > >Wikipedia says this is 1979 for "DECnet Phase II". Could be. I don't have a good timeline for DECnet. V06C was ~July 1978. John From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Dec 14 16:30:22 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 22:30:22 +0000 Subject: 3B1 emulator: IT BOOTS! (sort of) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D07EFFE.9070206@philpem.me.uk> On 14/12/10 19:54, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> They say "A picture says a thousand words"... well, here's a screenshot >> of the current version of FreeBee booting the System Loader and >> Diagnostics disc for the 3B1: > > OK, waht was the problem? I screwed up some of the bit-masking in the DMA ADDRESS register handler... The complete changeset is here: http://hg.philpem.me.uk/3b1emu/rev/feb84193a43a The changes related to DMA are in main.c and memory.c (that link shows you a diff of the changes). > As you know, I am mch more of a hardware person, but I have talked ot the > 1793 etc disk controllers (and the 279x is much the same as a 179x with > some of the support chips built-in). If oyu have any specific questions I > will see what I can rememebr... > > I also have the data sheets for both these chips if you don't have them I pulled them from Bitsavers (they're in the Storage Products Databook), but thanks for the offer. The WD1010 Winchester controller appears to behave a bit like an old-style (CHS-addressed, pre-LBA) IDE hard drive, just with an 8-bit host data bus instead of 16-bit... The keyboard interface is my first priority (after removing most of the duplicated code in memory.c), and after that the hard drive and some form of in-emulator GUI for swapping floppy disc images. I'm not too concerned about swapping HDD images 'live' for obvious reasons :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 14 17:00:43 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 18:00:43 -0500 Subject: 3B1 emulator: IT BOOTS! (sort of) In-Reply-To: <4D07EFFE.9070206@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D07EFFE.9070206@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <82E90719-1FC2-4281-BC15-C2984C3E54CD@neurotica.com> On Dec 14, 2010, at 5:30 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > I pulled them from Bitsavers (they're in the Storage Products Databook), but thanks for the offer. The WD1010 Winchester controller appears to behave a bit like an old-style (CHS-addressed, pre-LBA) IDE hard drive, just with an 8-bit host data bus instead of 16-bit... Umm...actually it's IDE that behaves like the WD1010, that was sorta the point of IDE. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Dec 14 17:22:31 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 23:22:31 +0000 Subject: 3B1 emulator: IT BOOTS! (sort of) In-Reply-To: <82E90719-1FC2-4281-BC15-C2984C3E54CD@neurotica.com> References: <4D07EFFE.9070206@philpem.me.uk> <82E90719-1FC2-4281-BC15-C2984C3E54CD@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D07FC37.3090307@philpem.me.uk> On 14/12/10 23:00, Dave McGuire wrote: > Umm...actually it's IDE that behaves like the WD1010, that was sorta the point of IDE. Point duly noted. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Dec 14 18:47:53 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 19:47:53 -0500 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <4D063493.27834.10D95FA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20101213142338.E97085@shell.lmi.net> <4D063493.27834.10D95FA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201012141947.54222.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday, December 13, 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've always wondered what the Scandanavians do to differentiate 0 > from O from ?. On here, those look like 3 very distinct characters. :) I'd also add in ?/? the vs the null set. Using ? as a variable would just get confusing. :) > Don't some Micros~1 or IBM character sets use a dot in the middle of > a zero? I think that the IBM VGA font (or a close relative from IBM, whatever was used in my parent's 286-based IBM PS/1) did. Also, "Liberation Mono" which I happen to use for my mail reader, seems to also dot the 0. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 14 19:21:15 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 17:21:15 -0800 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <201012141947.54222.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: , <4D063493.27834.10D95FA@cclist.sydex.com>, <201012141947.54222.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4D07A78B.4707.1BBAB1A@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Dec 2010 at 19:47, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Monday, December 13, 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I've always wondered what the Scandanavians do to differentiate 0 > > from O from ?. > > On here, those look like 3 very distinct characters. :) I'd also add > in ?/? the vs the null set. Using ? as a variable would just get > confusing. :) Again, my question pertained to writing such stuff as keypunch forms. If a stroked-oh is a genuine letter in Scandanvian alphabets, what do the writers of such forms do to distinguish plain oh from zero? The answer seems to be that the oh or zero gets a horizontal stroke through it. Good enough. --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Dec 14 19:26:11 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 17:26:11 -0800 Subject: When did RSTS/E get networking? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 2:17 PM -0800 12/14/10, John A. Dundas III wrote: >At 3:01 PM -0700 12/14/10, Richard wrote: >>In article , >> "John A. Dundas III" writes: >> >>> At 1:43 PM -0700 12/14/10, Richard wrote: >>> >Either as an option from DEC or built-in. Which version? >>> >>> The earliest availability of DECnet for RSTS/E that I can find is in >>> V06C. The SPD gives that as optional software. The System >>> Generation manual provides the details. >> >>Wikipedia says this is 1979 for "DECnet Phase II". > >Could be. I don't have a good timeline for DECnet. > >V06C was ~July 1978. > >John I couldn't find the document I was looking for, but I'm pretty sure the info it contained went into the following doc. http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/PDP-10_11_OS_xref(V2b).pdf Also I show that RSTS V6B came out in 1977. At least the following versions of DECnet/E still exist; 2.0, 2.1, 4.0, and 4.1. I've found mention of DECnet/E 4.2, but I don't believe it was ever released, and V4.1 works on RSTS/E V10.1. IIRC, DECnet/E V4.1 is "DECnet Phase III". Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From evan at snarc.net Tue Dec 14 20:04:30 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 21:04:30 -0500 Subject: OT: F/S: Lots of books about the history of science and tech Message-ID: <4D08222E.9000602@snarc.net> I need money. Selling 53 books. These are all books about the history and impact of sci-tech. It's massively time-consuming and tedious to put a value on all of them. So instead I want to sell them as one giant lot. Most of these books are only a few years old and most are in excellent condition. Most of them I bought new. Some of them I bought used, and some have a few notes in them. I could probably make more by selling them individually, but as I said, I need $$ now (and I'm way too lazy to ship all these one at a time!) If anyone wants an instant library of history-of-technology books, this is a great starting point. Asking price: $350. (That's an average of just $6.60 per book. Some of these are worth a LOT more.) - 1491 - ISBN 1400032059 - Best of 2600 - ISBN 0470294191 - AC/DC: The savage tale of the first standards war - ISBN 0787982679 - Age of reconnaissance: Discovery, exploration, and settlement, 1450-1650 - ISBN 0520042352 - American telegraphy and encyclopedia of the telegraph - ISBN 1559181931 - Ancient inventions - ISBN 0345401026 - Blood: An epic history of medicine and commerce - ISBN 067941875X - Clean tech revolution - ISBN 006089623X - Miller's Collecting science & technology - ISBN 1840008490 - Crypto - ISBN 0140244328 - Does technology drive history? - ISBN 0262691671 - Edison: A life of invention - ISBN 0471362700 - Electrifying America - ISBN 0262640309 - German Enigma cipher machine - ISBN 1580539963 - Greatest inventions of the past 2,000 years - ISBN 068485998X - Ham radio's technical culture - ISBN 0262582767 - History of mechanical inventions - ISBN 048625593X - Information appliances and beyond - ISBN 1558606009 - Lincoln the inventor - ISBN 0809328976 - Longitude - ISBN 080271529X - Maps & civilization - ISBN 0226799743 - Map that changed the world - ISBN 0061767905 - Marconi's magic box - ISBN 0306813785 - Meaning in technology - ISBN 0262661209 - Measuring America - ISBN 0452284597 - Nothing like it in the world - ISBN 0684846098 - One good turn - ISBN 0684867303 - Pencil - ISBN 0679734155 - Power to the people - ISBN 0374236755 - Readings in cyberethics - ISBN 0763724106 - Riddle of the compass - ISBN 0151005060 - Science and the founding fathers - ISBN 039331510X - Science of measurement - ISBN 0486258394 - Science in nineteenth-century America - ISBN 0313331618 - Science of Star Wars - ISBN 0312263872 - Scientific instruments - ISBN 0520217284 - Scientific renaissance: 1450-1630 - ISBN 0486281159 - Social history of American technology - ISBN 0195046056 - Steam - ISBN 1422364402 - Structure of scientific revolutions - ISBN 0226458083 - Telephone gambit - ISBN 039333368X - Thread across the ocean - ISBN 0060524464 - Victorian Internet - ISBN 0802716040 - Voodoo science - ISBN 0195135156 - Visions of technology - ISBN 0684863111 - What Einstein didn't know - ISBN 0440508568 - What Einstein told his barber - ISBN 0440508797 - When old technologies were new - ISBN 0195063414 - Why people believe weird things - ISBN 0805070893 - Why things bite back - ISBN 0679747567 - Wilbur and Orville - ISBN 0486402975 - Wireless - ISBN 0262082985 - Writing implements and accessories - ISBN 0810320177 Obviously it would be expensive to ship these, so I prefer a seller in the northeast US. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 15 13:06:20 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 19:06:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: apple Lisa2. One working!! - one to go? In-Reply-To: <68DFDC71C9B142D4877EB9A4F8CBEA7D@massey.ac.nz> from "Terry Stewart" at Dec 15, 10 10:57:20 am Message-ID: > > Yes, there is always the possibility that his ROM or IWM is also faulty but > we'll see what happens. Indeed. If it works you know where the fault (probably) is, if it doesn't, you've not gained any information, but I think it's unliklely you'll ahve done any damage... Can you not try the IWM in your working Lisa, or is it not socketed there? I assume the ROM is different between a machine with a 2/10 I/O board and an older I/O board + Lisalite, so you can't try that in the other machine. > > I actually took the working PSU in question apart last right and replaced > all six of the old filter capacitors. These are the ones I've found tend to > blow and smoke eventually. There's 'preventibe maintenance' and there's 'need;less component replacement' :-). More seriously, I would always replace suspect components if there's a chanve they will do further damage if they fail (e.g. causing a PSU to overvoltage.) In the case of an HP120 I repaired a year or so ago, I repleaced a dodgy-lookingsmoothing capacitor in the PSU becasue it was aimed straight at the CRT. Had it burst, it would probably have broken the CRT neck. But my experience is that capacitors (at least good qualitiy capacitors) are much maligned. Sure I've had to replace some. But it's not as common as some people make out. I've got plenty of 30+ year old machiues still will all theire original capacitors. I actually suspect that the capacitors used in modern-ish PCs are going to be less reliable now than those used in, say an HP or DEC machine from the 1970s. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 15 13:10:53 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 19:10:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 3B1 emulator: IT BOOTS! (sort of) In-Reply-To: <4D07EFFE.9070206@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Dec 14, 10 10:30:22 pm Message-ID: > > As you know, I am mch more of a hardware person, but I have talked ot the > > 1793 etc disk controllers (and the 279x is much the same as a 179x with > > some of the support chips built-in). If oyu have any specific questions I > > will see what I can rememebr... > > > > I also have the data sheets for both these chips if you don't have them > > I pulled them from Bitsavers (they're in the Storage Products Databook), I think I have that book on paper... It's certainly something like that. > but thanks for the offer. The WD1010 Winchester controller appears to > behave a bit like an old-style (CHS-addressed, pre-LBA) IDE hard drive, > just with an 8-bit host data bus instead of 16-bit... And this is suprising? Remember the original PC/AT contriller was actually a Western Digital board, with a WD1010 on it (I have just checked thr board I removed from this machine when I put an IDE card in). And that IDE was designed to be software compatible with the original IBM/Western Digital controller, just with much of the electronics in the drive (hence the name). -tony From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Dec 15 15:09:40 2010 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 10:09:40 +1300 Subject: apple Lisa2. One working!! - one to go? References: Message-ID: <720F27AA28724F84A9520AED2EE26B23@massey.ac.nz> > Can you not try the IWM in your working Lisa, or is it not socketed > there? I assume the ROM is different between a machine with a 2/10 I/O > board and an older I/O board + Lisalite, so you can't try that in the > other machine. No I can't. The Lisa 2 and the Lisa 2/10 I/O boards differ. The Lisa 2 has no IWM but instead used the LisaLight board (which I gather fools the machine into thinking it has a Twiggy drive). The Lisa 2/10 on the other hand uses the IWM to assist with disk I/O Terry From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Dec 15 18:46:26 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 18:46:26 -0600 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <20101213142338.E97085@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4D0607AA.25687.5E2476@cclist.sydex.com> <20101213142338.E97085@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4D096162.2080005@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 13 Dec 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Another skill to be learned was the ability to block-print neatly and >> legibly, differentiating "1" from "I", "0" from "O", etc. It was all >> uppercase, so that simplified things somewhat. To this day, I still >> put a line through my "7", although I've dropped the stroke through >> my zero as most people find it to be confusing. > > A long time ago, there used to be some people who put slashes through the > letter 'o', to differentiate it from the numeral '0'. Are they ALL dead > now? > > One of MICROS~1's early attempts at OCR on their order forms gave examples > of how they wanted the letters formed, and included slashing the letter > 'o'! I'm pretty sure the Micropad OCR gadget (circa 1980) that I once had required slashing of the letter 'o', with the unslashed version interpreted as a zero. (and to comment on another thread, I think the 286 Compaq luggable that I had for a while had a dot in the middle of the zero rather than a slash - I'm not sure if that was a standard feature or something oddball about my machine) cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 15 19:04:04 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 17:04:04 -0800 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <4D096162.2080005@gmail.com> References: , <20101213142338.E97085@shell.lmi.net>, <4D096162.2080005@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4D08F504.10541.217C142@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Dec 2010 at 18:46, Jules Richardson wrote: > (and to comment on another thread, I think the 286 Compaq luggable > that I had for a while had a dot in the middle of the zero rather than > a slash - I'm not sure if that was a standard feature or something > oddball about my machine) I happened to see an ad today in a 1987 PC Tech Journal (I've got to catch up on my reading) with an ad for 3270 emulation. The zeroes have dots in the center. --Chuck From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Thu Dec 16 07:41:50 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 05:41:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: A Christmas Picture for the Commodore folks In-Reply-To: <4D08F504.10541.217C142@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <637363.65219.qm@web113510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> This is an amazing picture for all the Amiga people out there. If you look you will find all sorts of great things in this image that bring you back to those times. There is also a Commodore 64 and Atari ST. http://www.interstation3d.com/portfolio/new_gallery/16bit.html If this was in print, I would buy it tomorrow. From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Dec 16 08:39:39 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 09:39:39 -0500 Subject: A Christmas Picture for the Commodore folks In-Reply-To: <637363.65219.qm@web113510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <637363.65219.qm@web113510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D0A24AB.9020605@atarimuseum.com> Great photo... Also if you note, the photo on the wall above the monitor next to the Back to the Future poster... is a poster for the Atari 1040STfm computer, kinda ironic, huh :-) Curt Christian Liendo wrote: > This is an amazing picture for all the Amiga people out there. > > If you look you will find all sorts of great things in this image that bring you back to those times. There is also a Commodore 64 and Atari ST. > > http://www.interstation3d.com/portfolio/new_gallery/16bit.html > > If this was in print, I would buy it tomorrow. > > > > > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Dec 16 08:50:08 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 15:50:08 +0100 Subject: A Christmas Picture for the Commodore folks In-Reply-To: <4D0A24AB.9020605@atarimuseum.com> References: <637363.65219.qm@web113510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4D0A24AB.9020605@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20101216145007.GA12522@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 09:39:39AM -0500, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Great photo... Also note that it isn't a photo :) - Pontus. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Dec 16 08:58:29 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 12:58:29 -0200 Subject: A Christmas Picture for the Commodore folks References: <637363.65219.qm@web113510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4D0A24AB.9020605@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <8572314A5C024A51AF9A916A25AE8957@portajara> > Also if you note, the photo on the wall above the monitor next to the Back > to the Future poster... is a poster for the Atari 1040STfm computer, kinda > ironic, huh :-) This means the owner of the Amiga has pure love for the technology, and it isn't polarized to commodore, atari or whatever :) From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Thu Dec 16 09:00:28 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 07:00:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: A Christmas Picture for the Commodore folks In-Reply-To: <4D0A24AB.9020605@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <622732.95995.qm@web113510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> The man who did the picture never owned an Amiga, he owned an ST.. Quoting the artist "I must admit I had Atari ST not Amiga ;), but my friend had Amiga and it had way better graphics and sound than my ST. So that's the reason why I decided to model Amiga for this illustration, out of respect. :) " I like all the little details The Commodore 64 on the left The image from DeluxePaint for the Amiga The Vic-20 and Commodore 128 and 80 Micro books It's just a great great picture.. --- On Thu, 12/16/10, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: Back to the Future poster... is a poster for the Atari 1040STfm computer, kinda ironic, huh :-) Curt From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 16 09:48:55 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 10:48:55 -0500 Subject: A Christmas Picture for the Commodore folks In-Reply-To: <637363.65219.qm@web113510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <4D08F504.10541.217C142@cclist.sydex.com> <637363.65219.qm@web113510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 8:41 AM, Christian Liendo wrote: > This is an amazing picture for all the Amiga people out there. > > If you look you will find all sorts of great things in this image that bring you back to those times. There is also a Commodore 64 and Atari ST. > > http://www.interstation3d.com/portfolio/new_gallery/16bit.html Gorgeous. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Dec 16 10:03:40 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 08:03:40 -0800 Subject: A Christmas Picture for the Commodore folks In-Reply-To: <622732.95995.qm@web113510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <622732.95995.qm@web113510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 7:00 AM -0800 12/16/10, Christian Liendo wrote: >I like all the little details > >The Commodore 64 on the left >The image from DeluxePaint for the Amiga >The Vic-20 and Commodore 128 and 80 Micro books The toy army men escaping by digging a hole on the picture on the monitor, and coming out the side of the monitor. Though I think one of them is falling off the side of the desk like a lemming. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Dec 16 10:18:44 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 08:18:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: A Christmas Picture for the Commodore folks In-Reply-To: <4D0A24AB.9020605@atarimuseum.com> References: <637363.65219.qm@web113510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4D0A24AB.9020605@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Dec 2010, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Great photo... > > Also if you note, the photo on the wall above the monitor next to the Back to > the Future poster... is a poster for the Atari 1040STfm computer, kinda > ironic, huh :-) There's a couple of 80 Micro magazines/books on the shelving in the back too. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Dec 16 10:20:54 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 08:20:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: A Christmas Picture for the Commodore folks In-Reply-To: References: <622732.95995.qm@web113510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Dec 2010, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 7:00 AM -0800 12/16/10, Christian Liendo wrote: >> I like all the little details >> >> The Commodore 64 on the left >> The image from DeluxePaint for the Amiga >> The Vic-20 and Commodore 128 and 80 Micro books > > The toy army men escaping by digging a hole on the picture on the monitor, > and coming out the side of the monitor. Though I think one of them is > falling off the side of the desk like a lemming. > If you look closely, he's got a thread tied around him while the guy standing on the joystick is acting as the anchor. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 16 10:55:20 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 09:55:20 -0700 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <4D08F504.10541.217C142@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20101213142338.E97085@shell.lmi.net>, <4D096162.2080005@gmail.com> <4D08F504.10541.217C142@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4D08F504.10541.217C142 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > I happened to see an ad today in a 1987 PC Tech Journal (I've got to > catch up on my reading) with an ad for 3270 emulation. The zeroes > have dots in the center. Real 3270 terminals have a dot in the center of the zero. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 16 10:58:35 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 09:58:35 -0700 Subject: A Christmas Picture for the Commodore folks In-Reply-To: <4D0A24AB.9020605@atarimuseum.com> References: <637363.65219.qm@web113510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4D0A24AB.9020605@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: In article <4D0A24AB.9020605 at atarimuseum.com>, "Curt @ Atari Museum" writes: > Great photo... Its not a photo, its a rendering... FYI. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Dec 16 11:42:37 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 09:42:37 -0800 Subject: 3B1 emulator: IT BOOTS! (sort of) In-Reply-To: <4D06E351.50301@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D06E351.50301@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D0A4F8D.4010404@bitsavers.org> On 12/13/10 7:24 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > They say "A picture says a thousand words"... well, here's a screenshot of the current version of FreeBee booting the System Loader and Diagnostics disc for the 3B1: > pretty spiffy you might find this interesting, if you hadn't run across it already http://people.csail.mit.edu/fredette/tme/index.html From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Dec 16 13:51:56 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 11:51:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: A Christmas Picture for the Commodore folks In-Reply-To: References: <622732.95995.qm@web113510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Dec 2010, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Thu, 16 Dec 2010, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> >> The toy army men escaping by digging a hole on the picture on the monitor, >> and coming out the side of the monitor. Though I think one of them is >> falling off the side of the desk like a lemming. >> > If you look closely, he's got a thread tied around him while the guy standing > on the joystick is acting as the anchor. :) Ah! I was wondering what was going on with the guy on the joystick. Zane From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 16 14:21:24 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 20:21:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: apple Lisa2. One working!! - one to go? In-Reply-To: <720F27AA28724F84A9520AED2EE26B23@massey.ac.nz> from "Terry Stewart" at Dec 16, 10 10:09:40 am Message-ID: > > > Can you not try the IWM in your working Lisa, or is it not socketed > > there? I assume the ROM is different between a machine with a 2/10 I/O > > board and an older I/O board + Lisalite, so you can't try that in the > > other machine. > > No I can't. The Lisa 2 and the Lisa 2/10 I/O boards differ. The Lisa 2 has > no IWM but instead used the LisaLight board (which I gather fools the The Lisalite board is the motor speed controller (PWM gnerator), which is effectively built into the Twigggy drive. The IWM is essentially the GCR encoder/Decoder fo the disk data. the 2 are not really related... I didn't realise that the origianl Lisa I/O board didn't ues the IWM. I will have to take another look at the schemaitcs. > machine into thinking it has a Twiggy drive). The Lisa 2/10 on the other I am not conviced it does a complete fooling :-). I would not be at all suprised if you had to change the disk controller firmware ROM when you replaed a Twiggy drive with a 3.5" Sony + Lisalite board. I woudl not be totally suprised though if the disk cotnroller ROM used on an original Lisa + Lisalite + Sony drive and that used on a Lisa 2/10 + Sony drive were very similar. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 16 14:28:18 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 20:28:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <4D096162.2080005@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Dec 15, 10 06:46:26 pm Message-ID: > > I'm pretty sure the Micropad OCR gadget (circa 1980) that I once had required > slashing of the letter 'o', with the unslashed version interpreted as a zero. > > (and to comment on another thread, I think the 286 Compaq luggable that I had > for a while had a dot in the middle of the zero rather than a slash - I'm not > sure if that was a standard feature or something oddball about my machine) FWIW, I've just pulled a book off my bookshelf. 'Assembler Language Programmign, The IBM System/360 and 370', 2nd edition 1975. It says : 'Note that the letter O (Oh) is written as 0 to distinguish it clearly from the digit O (sero). We follow this convention in the description of any statement or card that is fed to the computer' So in that book (and presumably in other related manuals/documentation), the letter gets the slash. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 16 16:15:06 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 14:15:06 -0800 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: References: <4D096162.2080005@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Dec 15, 10 06:46:26 pm, Message-ID: <4D0A1EEA.22465.179EC3A@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Dec 2010 at 20:28, Tony Duell wrote: > It says : > 'Note that the letter O (Oh) is written as 0 to distinguish it clearly > from the digit O (sero). We follow this convention in the description > of any statement or card that is fed to the computer' > > So in that book (and presumably in other related > manuals/documentation), the letter gets the slash. Okay, let's look at IBM publication SC20-1646-6, "A Programmer's Introduction to IBM System/360 Assembler Language" (August 1970) on bitsavers as: http://bit.ly/fYgJTZ Note that, starting on PDF page 10, and on all subsequent coding forms, the zero is slashed, not the letter O. Even more curious, is the reference in the title to "Assembler Language" rather than "Assembly Language", as the purists would hav it. If your book is an IBM publication, it shows only that IBM was consistent in its inconsistency. It'd be interesting if someone could come up with a corporate directive that specifies what the "official" convention was. --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Dec 16 16:33:36 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 16:33:36 -0600 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D0A93C0.2030303@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> I'm pretty sure the Micropad OCR gadget (circa 1980) that I once had required >> slashing of the letter 'o', with the unslashed version interpreted as a zero. >> >> (and to comment on another thread, I think the 286 Compaq luggable that I had >> for a while had a dot in the middle of the zero rather than a slash - I'm not >> sure if that was a standard feature or something oddball about my machine) > > FWIW, I've just pulled a book off my bookshelf. 'Assembler Language > Programmign, The IBM System/360 and 370', 2nd edition 1975. > > It says : > 'Note that the letter O (Oh) is written as 0 to distinguish it clearly > from the digit O (sero). We follow this convention in the description of > any statement or card that is fed to the computer' Also found out that my Micropad was related to the Quest Automation Datapad, and the Datapad was used against DG Nova machines - was there any history of DG hardware using slashed "ohs" and unslashed zeros? cheers Jules From doc at vaxen.net Thu Dec 16 16:30:16 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 16:30:16 -0600 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <4D0A1EEA.22465.179EC3A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D096162.2080005@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Dec 15, 10 06:46:26 pm, <4D0A1EEA.22465.179EC3A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D0A92F8.3090503@vaxen.net> On 12/16/10 4:15 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > If your book is an IBM publication, it shows only that IBM was > consistent in its inconsistency. > > It'd be interesting if someone could come up with a corporate > directive that specifies what the "official" convention was. *That's* not gonna happen... IBM's different hardware groups might as well be different companies, as far as technical conventions are concerned. Consider this: although "iSeries" and "pSeries" hardware became the same physical platform when POWER5 was introduced, but the FRU codes for adapters and accessories weren't merged until last year. A gigabit ethernet adapter for an i5 system, for example, was a different product code - at 2-4x the price - as the IDENTICAL PCI card for p5. Doc Shipley From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Dec 16 16:52:21 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 14:52:21 -0800 Subject: Slashing the letter O (Was: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing)) In-Reply-To: <4D0A93C0.2030303@gmail.com> References: <4D0A93C0.2030303@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4D0A9825.20406@bitsavers.org> There was an attempt at establishing what can roughly be described as an upside down Q for a slashed O. The only example I know of where someone used this are in line printer listings from SDS in the late 60's. I would have to do some serious digging in magazines to find who was pushing this as a standard. They end up looking like misformed 8's. It does terrible things to OCR. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Dec 16 17:15:30 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 18:15:30 -0500 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <4D0A1EEA.22465.179EC3A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D096162.2080005@gmail.com> <4D0A1EEA.22465.179EC3A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > It'd be interesting if someone could come up with a corporate > directive that specifies what the "official" convention was. Perhaps there was no convention, no corporate standard. Even old IBM was flexible in some areas. -- Will From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu Dec 16 17:18:28 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 15:18:28 -0800 Subject: Slashing the letter O (Was: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing)) Message-ID: <201012162319.oBGNJOxA035104@billY.EZWIND.NET> Interestingly enough, the Sharp PC-1211 (early basic programmable calculator) displays 'O' in a manner similar to what you describe. Zeros have no slash or other markings, but the 'O' has a notch in the upper right corner. See http://www.vintagecalculators.com/assets/images/SharpPC1211_1.jpg for an example. Josh -----Original Message----- From: Al Kossow Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2010 2:52 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Slashing the letter O (Was: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing)) There was an attempt at establishing what can roughly be described as an upside down Q for a slashed O. The only example I know of where someone used this are in line printer listings from SDS in the late 60's. I would have to do some serious digging in magazines to find who was pushing this as a standard. They end up looking like misformed 8's. It does terrible things to OCR. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 16 17:43:25 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 15:43:25 -0800 Subject: Slashing the letter O (Was: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing)) In-Reply-To: <4D0A9825.20406@bitsavers.org> References: , <4D0A93C0.2030303@gmail.com>, <4D0A9825.20406@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4D0A339D.28132.1CAC87C@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Dec 2010 at 14:52, Al Kossow wrote: > There was an attempt at establishing what can roughly be described as > an upside down Q for a slashed O. The only example I know of where > someone used this are in line printer listings from SDS in the late > 60's. I would have to do some serious digging in magazines to find who > was pushing this as a standard. They end up looking like misformed > 8's. > > It does terrible things to OCR. I may even have a few old listings with the "0" hand-adjusted in this manner for publication. I think I still might have an old CDC coding form that has "0 = zero and slashed O = oh" pre-printed on it. I'll have to dig some. None of this compares with the extreme measure that CDC embarked on in the late 60's and early 70's--use of OCR-A for all correspondence. Those ugly, ugly characters--they were on all of the typewriters, regardless of vendor. Was it square = zero and diamond = oh? I don't remember, except for hating the blasted font, except for realizing that there were slight differences in the font between, say Olivetti and Remington. OCR-B was much more readable. --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Dec 16 17:51:30 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 17:51:30 -0600 Subject: A Christmas Picture for the Commodore folks In-Reply-To: References: <622732.95995.qm@web113510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Ah! ?I was wondering what was going on with the guy on the joystick. I like the guy under the mouse. At first I thought he got squished by it, but I see he made a jack out of a paperclip and an IC. He's motorpool! From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Dec 17 03:12:54 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 07:12:54 -0200 Subject: more or less [OT]: A new standard for lists? References: , <4D0A93C0.2030303@gmail.com>, <4D0A9825.20406@bitsavers.org> <4D0A339D.28132.1CAC87C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <10CCE3CB301D40C7A0A0EF30E41AF9F4@portajara> As some of you may know, Yahoo is flopping. And much of the lists of the world are on yahoo servers. This is a talk I had on HP Equimpent list, that MAY bring nice ideas to some of you. I think is a smart idea that could be implemented (unfortunately I know nothing about C programming, so I cannot bring it to light alone) and it would be good, so here it is. I'm sorry for the little offtopic, but if you think well you will understand that it MAY be a nice standard to the future of all lists, incluiding this one. ---8<---Cut here---8<--- >I thought something may have happened. I have used AltaVista for many >years, resisting google and the others - about two months >ago it started >redirecting to some yahoo site, which was not a good sign. You're realizing how stupid is one of the latest buzzwords - "cloud computing" - is, and how dangerous is to have your data not in your domains (and backed-up well). I still think these lists should run in private servers. Everyone though of Yahoo as a reliable company, that "would just never dies". This is another nail on the coffin. Everything can happen - AND HAPPENS - with a company like yahoo. I still think of a distribuited mailist system. Imagine: - servers scattered around the world, with copies of the list(s) - It would distribute the mail to the nearest list members - Servers could automatically enter or exit the network. When it entered the network, it would rsync all containt and take a "slice" of the members to distribute the messages. Every server would ping all the net from time to time. 12 hours out the net? It would be marked as "missing" and other server (or servers) would share the load and redistribute the messages to the affected list members It would take a global thermonuclear war to kill everything. And it would be difficult to happen. Working this way, any dude could have a "reflector" of the list traffic. Since we're talking plain text here, the packet sharing between the "reflectors" would be light and easy on the networks. Any user could say "I can share content here" and have a machine dedicated to help. Also, full plaintext of lists would be easier to extract and distribute. And of course, backup :) Developers, think about that. Maybe a new list standard could born from this talk. Greetings from Brazil Alexandre Souza, PU1BZZ --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 From jws at jwsss.com Sun Dec 12 04:19:27 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 02:19:27 -0800 Subject: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <4D049285.10007@brouhaha.com> References: <4D00109D.6010103@bitsavers.org> <4D01A403.5020301@mail.msu.edu> <4D01B6B9.5060405@brouhaha.com> <4D01B8F2.3050400@mail.msu.edu> <4D02AE4E.205@brouhaha.com> <4D042D53.1090507@brouhaha.com> <4D049285.10007@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4D04A1AF.9020609@jwsss.com> I had a friend transcribe the listing for the Microdata 1600's diagnostic, RD00. He managed to get it transcribed in about 2 weeks of casual work, and had 2 errors in 1k of firmware, or 1024 locations and statements, including typing in not only the source, but the object to go with it. Since it was a diagnostic, and I was writing an emulator I caught them relatively easily. He was not a computer illiterate person, however, but a programmer of many years experience (Thanks, John) Jim From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sun Dec 12 02:07:16 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 02:07:16 -0600 Subject: =?windows-1256?Q?Tektronix_?= =?windows-1256?Q?graphics=2C_?= =?windows-1256?Q?NASA_and_F?= =?windows-1256?Q?ORTRAN=FE?= Message-ID: Hi Gang, While surfing, I found a repository of NASA FORTRAN code from the NASA-COSMIC library. Lots of graphics in here as you could imagine, supporting Tektronix, PLOT10 and VT100 graphics terminals. As I know there are lots of geeks here, like me still interested in this sort of stuff. I have attached a abstract list of the code. Let me know if you are interested in any of this - it certainly has application or useful as learning material; for example the calculation of satellite trajectories for us AMSAT ham guys. You can certainly Google yourself, but the download for me was a bit tricky - requiring a linux box and the Subversion version control system. How can I push it up to Bitsavers? Randy -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: 00all-abstracts.txt URL: From jws at jwsss.com Sun Dec 12 15:52:46 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 13:52:46 -0800 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <20101212123256.D56668@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101212123256.D56668@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4D05442E.3050301@jwsss.com> On 12/12/2010 12:54 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Back in the "good old days", IBM made the "Verifier" punch. It was part > of the 029 punch series, but did NOT punch data onto cards. Instead, it > compared what was being keyed in to what was on the card currently going > through. If it came up with a discrepancy, it punched a notch on the > 12-edge. If the whole card matched, then it put a notch in the column 80 > END of the card. > > A deck of cards consistently notched on the end was a reassurance that the > original punching and the verification matched, and therefore was probably > pretty accurate. > > Of course, that doubled the price and the amount of work for having a > service bureau punch your data. > The IRS data center in Kansas City used this method, but was doing it key to disk as in 8" floppy. Machines looked identical to the 029 / 059 (thanks for that Wil) but had a slot for the floppy on the unit. They were taken to a Honeywell mainframe with 25mb drives and copied to the 25mb drives. These were flown nightly to Washington with the data. There was probably 1000 entry stations in one room, and the same number of verifiers in another. The operators were using a system to enter data off the usual 1040 IRS forms. I didn't get in the entry rooms due to security restrictions. Perhaps someone here worked on these systems, I'm just relaying what I recall from a late night tour by one of the guys who maintained the Honeywell hardware, and was a fellow scrapper. This was sometime in the time frame from 68 to 70. Jim From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sun Dec 12 23:21:44 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 23:21:44 -0600 Subject: Lead free solder foolishness - Was:Releasing sources/schematics. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D05AD68.1090402@tx.rr.com> On 12/12/2010 12:59 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > And secondly, I am awkeward enough to want o make my own. Mainly because > I could then use leaded solder. I thought that Steve Ciarcia wrote a *very* interesting editorial regarding the utter folly of banning leaded solder in the June 2008 issue of Circuit Cellar. I've been suspicious of and actually extremely annoyed at the lead free solder idea from the start, and Steve makes a pretty good case that it is not only a very poor electronics assembly medium, it is terrible ecology as well! Later, Charlie C. > > -tony > > From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Thu Dec 16 10:29:16 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 10:29:16 -0600 Subject: A Christmas Picture for the Commodore folks In-Reply-To: References: <622732.95995.qm@web113510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D0A3E5C.6080803@tx.rr.com> On 12/16/2010 10:03 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 7:00 AM -0800 12/16/10, Christian Liendo wrote: >> I like all the little details >> >> The Commodore 64 on the left >> The image from DeluxePaint for the Amiga >> The Vic-20 and Commodore 128 and 80 Micro books > > The toy army men escaping by digging a hole on the picture on the > monitor, and coming out the side of the monitor. Though I think one of > them is falling off the side of the desk like a lemming. > > Zane > And is that the Hogwart's Express train engine to the left of the monitor? Yeah, I know that's anachronistic - but fun to contemplate anyway! Later, Charlie C. From chrise at pobox.com Thu Dec 16 16:20:51 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 16:20:51 -0600 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: References: <4D096162.2080005@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20101216222051.GC9982@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (12/16/2010 at 08:28PM +0000), Tony Duell wrote: > > FWIW, I've just pulled a book off my bookshelf. 'Assembler Language > Programmign, The IBM System/360 and 370', 2nd edition 1975. > > It says : > 'Note that the letter O (Oh) is written as 0 to distinguish it clearly > from the digit O (sero). We follow this convention in the description of > any statement or card that is fed to the computer' > > So in that book (and presumably in other related manuals/documentation), > the letter gets the slash. And I have a model 33 teletype here, with some provenance claiming an IBM lineage, that has a slashed-oh between the I and the P keys and an unslashed-zero next to the 9 key. Pressing the slashed-oh, sends 0x4F and pressing the unslashed-zero sends 0x30... and conversely, it prints an unslashed-zero when 0x30 is sent to it and it prints a slashed-oh when 0x4F is sent to it... -- Chris Elmquist From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Dec 17 10:02:14 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 08:02:14 -0800 Subject: more or less [OT]: A new standard for lists? In-Reply-To: <10CCE3CB301D40C7A0A0EF30E41AF9F4@portajara> References: , <4D0A93C0.2030303@gmail.com>, <4D0A9825.20406@bitsavers.org> <4D0A339D.28132.1CAC87C@cclist.sydex.com> <10CCE3CB301D40C7A0A0EF30E41AF9F4@portajara> Message-ID: At 7:12 AM -0200 12/17/10, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > As some of you may know, Yahoo is flopping. And much of the lists >of the world are on yahoo servers. Oh, not a good thought... :-( My main lists these days (all Photography related) are hosted on Yahoo servers. :-( > I still think these lists should run in private servers. Everyone >though of Yahoo as a reliable company, that "would just never dies". >This is another nail on the coffin. Everything can happen - AND >HAPPENS - with a company like yahoo. This is the way it used to be, there are reasons why almost all lists, are now hosted on Yahoo (how many besides this one are hosted elsewhere). I can think of one other list I'm still on that is hosted by someone other than Yahoo, and it has been dead for about 2 months now (I forget how long it was dead the last time). I've personally resisted the trend towards web-based BBS's, but there are five of those I have accounts on, as they're the only way to exchange data on those subjects. Personally I prefer email lists, and consider them the most efficient means of exchanging information. My hope is that if Yahoo finishes crumbling, they'll sell off their mail lists to another company. This is how they got them in the first place. Remember it used to be "One List". One of the Yahoo lists I'm on started out on Fidonet! You now have me wondering if I shouldn't look into a hardware upgrade capable of running mail lists. I have the network capacity, just not the hardware capacity. Honestly though I have no desire to provide such a service. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Fri Dec 17 11:05:01 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 17:05:01 -0000 Subject: Unknown TI logic series In-Reply-To: <6fa8eb99c481bc0ffdfab16c9d693623@cs.ubc.ca> References: <6fa8eb99c481bc0ffdfab16c9d693623@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4BE0015880934979BD21B07342743F0D@RODSDEVSYSTEM> It's possible these were bulk untested devices that the buyer could then test and choose those the met their requirements or they had been tested to a different standard than the usual 74 series. I have my 1974 TI TTL data books from my design engineer days and there's no reference to them there. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ????? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert Sent: 11 December 2010 19:12 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Unknown TI logic series On 2010 Dec 10, at 2:36 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > > we've had a look inside our IME 122 calculator and discovered that it > is full of SN14xx logic ICs. They are mainly from TI, but there are > also some from Motorola and others. It seems that they have the same > function and pinout as the SN74xx parts but there must be a difference > since the machine has quite a lot of SN1401 (the SN7401 is a quad > open-collector NAND), but there are no pullup resistors anywhere! > Some of the types are SN1400, SN1401, SN1474, SN1490; the ALU is made > up > of SN1482 and SN1483. > Anyone knows this series? BTW the supply voltage is 5V. I can't find a reference for those numbers, and I haven't seen them before, however I have seen TI inexplicably producing series identical or similar to more-common series, but numbered differently. For example, the SN3900 and SN4500 series are very similar to more-common DTL series such as the 700/800/900 series, but I have never seen a reference for the 3900 or 4500 series in TI databooks. One suggestion might be they were a 'consumer-grade' series, a step below the standard commercial-grade stuff. Found your museum's page here: http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev_en/ime_122/ index.html Is PHxxxx a Philips or Siemens number? Just some suggestions regarding the 1401 outputs and load resistors: - make in-circuit measurements between the gate output and Vcc, but with both polarities on the meter leads. This will sometimes indicate whether there is a resistive element vs. measuring the semiconductor junctions. - look for an unused gate on which to measure R of the output. - perhaps a bit of poor design and/or they were being used at a slow enough speed they didn't need pull-ups. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Dec 17 11:33:06 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 12:33:06 -0500 Subject: more or less [OT]: A new standard for lists? In-Reply-To: References: , <4D0A93C0.2030303@gmail.com>, <4D0A9825.20406@bitsavers.org> <4D0A339D.28132.1CAC87C@cclist.sydex.com> <10CCE3CB301D40C7A0A0EF30E41AF9F4@portajara> Message-ID: <4D0B9ED2.6070505@compsys.to> >Zane H. Healy wrote: > This is the way it used to be, there are reasons why almost all lists, > are now hosted on Yahoo (how many besides this one are hosted > elsewhere). I can think of one other list I'm still on that is hosted > by someone other than Yahoo, and it has been dead for about 2 months > now (I forget how long it was dead the last time). I subscribe to one other list which I am confident is not on Yahoo. It is probably hosted by East Carolina University. I have been lurking for about 10 years and been able to re-subscribe as my e-mail address changed. It is active on only about half of the days, often in a flurry when a specific topic is widely discussed. The primary purpose seems to be the modification of the rules for the current CE (aka the Gregorian) Calendar. The most important point I learned is that there is a very slow drift in the alignment of the CE Calendar with the Spring Equinox of approximately one day in 1600 years, i.e. around 3600 CE, the Spring Equinox will occur, on average, one day earlier in the year than at present, all others things being equal. The suggestion to modify the rules for the CE Calendar is to drop the Leap Year for years divisible by 2000. However, long term predictions also suggest that by 10,000 CE, that modification will be totally inadequate. 99.999999999999999999999% of everyone else I have discussed this with point out that we will all be dead by 2100 CE, let alone 3600 CE or 4000 CE. So let them take care of the situation when it arrives. PLUS, these predictions are so likely to change that there is really no point in attempting to develop a solution for at least another 1000 years until there is more data available - or when no solution is needed in any case. Jerome Fine From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Dec 17 11:36:55 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 12:36:55 -0500 Subject: Unknown TI logic series In-Reply-To: <4BE0015880934979BD21B07342743F0D@RODSDEVSYSTEM> References: <6fa8eb99c481bc0ffdfab16c9d693623@cs.ubc.ca> <4BE0015880934979BD21B07342743F0D@RODSDEVSYSTEM> Message-ID: > It's possible these were bulk untested devices that the buyer could then > test and choose those the met their requirements or they had been tested to > a different standard than the usual 74 series. I do not think TI would allow anything with a TI logo untested out of their factory. They are interesting, but no more than weird numbers on semicustom devices. Motorola does the same thing, with their SC series of parts (not MC or XC).. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 17 12:30:25 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 10:30:25 -0800 Subject: Unknown TI logic series In-Reply-To: References: , <4BE0015880934979BD21B07342743F0D@RODSDEVSYSTEM>, Message-ID: <4D0B3BC1.25054.C47EB@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Dec 2010 at 12:36, William Donzelli wrote: > They are interesting, but no more than weird numbers on semicustom > devices. Motorola does the same thing, with their SC series of parts > (not MC or XC).. It was very common back then. I have some 54175 cerDIPs that I bought way back when that bear cryptic numbers, but they're National parts, for certain--they were much cheaper than the correctly-labeled versions. Of course, this comes from a time when "glue" logic cost real money. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 17 12:59:35 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 11:59:35 -0700 Subject: Tektronix graphics, NASA and FORTRANþ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Randy Dawson writes: > While surfing, I found a repository of NASA FORTRAN code from the NASA-COSMIC library. I've looked at this library before. The problem with the "library" is that the code is so one-off that its not really usable by anyone but the original author. > How can I push it up to Bitsavers? I'm not really sure if bitsavers is the right place for it, but I'll let Al speak to that. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Dec 17 13:13:39 2010 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 14:13:39 -0500 Subject: Unknown TI logic series In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > They are interesting, but no more than weird numbers on semicustom > devices. Motorola does the same thing, with their SC series of parts > (not MC or XC).. I tend to come in on this side too, these funny series are Effectively TI-supplied "house numbers". They may be different than stock SN7400 TTL or whatever DTL in minor or Major ways but that was an agreement between the customer and TI. I've seen the innards of DTL and TTL based calculators, and to think that They would work with rejects or floor sweepings is unreasonable. If Anything I would think that the house-numbered part would have some specs tightened And others loosened to produce something most manufacturable. And isn't That the reason for house numbers to begin with? (e.g. not purely obfuscation) Tim. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Dec 17 13:14:08 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 11:14:08 -0800 Subject: Tektronix graphics, NASA and =?ISO-8859-1?Q?FORTRAN=FE?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D0BB680.3040804@bitsavers.org> On 12/17/10 10:59 AM, Richard wrote: > In article, > Randy Dawson writes: > >> While surfing, I found a repository of NASA FORTRAN code from the NASA-COSMIC > library. > Did they finally release the code? Last time I looked, the interesting bits (ie. NASTRAN) were really expensive. From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Dec 17 13:46:14 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 11:46:14 -0800 Subject: more or less [OT]: A new standard for lists? In-Reply-To: <10CCE3CB301D40C7A0A0EF30E41AF9F4@portajara> References: , <4D0A93C0.2030303@gmail.com>, <4D0A9825.20406@bitsavers.org> <4D0A339D.28132.1CAC87C@cclist.sydex.com> <10CCE3CB301D40C7A0A0EF30E41AF9F4@portajara> Message-ID: From: Alexandre Souza - Listas Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 1:13 AM > I still think of a distribuited mailist system. Imagine: > - servers scattered around the world, with copies of the list(s) > - It would distribute the mail to the nearest list members > - Servers could automatically enter or exit the network. When it entered > the network, it would rsync all containt and take a "slice" of the members > to distribute the messages. Every server would ping all the net from time to > time. 12 hours out the net? It would be marked as "missing" and other server > (or servers) would share the load and redistribute the messages to the > affected list members > It would take a global thermonuclear war to kill everything. And it > would be difficult to happen. > Working this way, any dude could have a "reflector" of the list traffic. > Since we're talking plain text here, the packet sharing between the > "reflectors" would be light and easy on the networks. Any user could say "I > can share content here" and have a machine dedicated to help. Also, full > plaintext of lists would be easier to extract and distribute. And of course, > backup :) > Developers, think about that. Maybe a new list standard could born from > this talk. Hmm. Let me think. Isn't this called Usenet? Some of the features listed don't exist in nntp (NetNews Transport Protocol), but that's what the RFC process is for: Adding private security (accounts and such), removing the CANCEL message form, that kind of thing, could all be done if people want to. There are any number of privately managed netnews hierarchies these days, not just the Big 8(TM) and alt.*, so one or a few more that used a more restrictive nntp implementation will be down in the noise, just like private mailing lists are. That's my 2d 'orth. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Dec 17 15:15:39 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 16:15:39 -0500 Subject: Unknown TI logic series In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > They would work with rejects or floor sweepings is unreasonable. If > Anything I would think that the house-numbered part would have some specs tightened > And others loosened to produce something most manufacturable. And isn't > That the reason for house numbers to begin with? (e.g. not purely obfuscation) I think house numbers are more for inventory control reasons - it gets all the manufacturers wacky systems at the same level. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Dec 17 15:17:10 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 16:17:10 -0500 Subject: Unknown TI logic series In-Reply-To: <4D0B3BC1.25054.C47EB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BE0015880934979BD21B07342743F0D@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4D0B3BC1.25054.C47EB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > It was very common back then. ?I have some 54175 cerDIPs that I > bought way back when that bear cryptic numbers, but they're National > parts, for certain--they were much cheaper than the correctly-labeled > versions. This goes back to transistor, and even tube manufacture. Given enough money or a big enough order... -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Dec 17 15:20:56 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 16:20:56 -0500 Subject: more or less [OT]: A new standard for lists? In-Reply-To: References: <4D0A93C0.2030303@gmail.com> <4D0A9825.20406@bitsavers.org> <4D0A339D.28132.1CAC87C@cclist.sydex.com> <10CCE3CB301D40C7A0A0EF30E41AF9F4@portajara> Message-ID: > Hmm. ?Let me think. ?Isn't this called Usenet? Didn't Usenet die back in the late 1990s? -- Will From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Dec 17 15:23:12 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 16:23:12 -0500 Subject: more or less [OT]: A new standard for lists? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201012171623.12824.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 17 December 2010, William Donzelli wrote: > > Hmm. Let me think. Isn't this called Usenet? > > Didn't Usenet die back in the late 1990s? I hear that it's useful for pirating movies. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 17 15:35:18 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 14:35:18 -0700 Subject: more or less [OT]: A new standard for lists? In-Reply-To: References: <4D0A93C0.2030303@gmail.com> <4D0A9825.20406@bitsavers.org> <4D0A339D.28132.1CAC87C@cclist.sydex.com> <10CCE3CB301D40C7A0A0EF30E41AF9F4@portajara> Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > > Hmm. Let me think. Isn't this called Usenet? > > Didn't Usenet die back in the late 1990s? Its still useful for programming discussions, but for all the chit-chat type stuff its pretty much been replaced by the balkanized world of inferior web forums. The distributed control nature of usenet also lent itself to excessive abuse by spammers and the usenet community never really came up with a useful way of dealing with that. Many people retreated to mailing lists as a result of the spam problem. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Dec 17 15:41:32 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 13:41:32 -0800 Subject: Unknown TI logic series In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96507f2cd9cf57a4856ebfeb28a82b12@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Dec 17, at 11:13 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> They are interesting, but no more than weird numbers on semicustom >> devices. Motorola does the same thing, with their SC series of parts >> (not MC or XC).. > > I tend to come in on this side too, these funny series are > Effectively TI-supplied "house numbers". > > They may be different than stock SN7400 TTL or whatever DTL in minor or > Major ways but that was an agreement between the customer and TI. > > I've seen the innards of DTL and TTL based calculators, and to think > that > They would work with rejects or floor sweepings is unreasonable. If > Anything I would think that the house-numbered part would have some > specs tightened > And others loosened to produce something most manufacturable. And isn't > That the reason for house numbers to begin with? (e.g. not purely > obfuscation) I kind of thought that was what I was getting at when I first suggested they might be a consumer-grade version of standard parts. No, they're not going to stoop to using rejects (nor would TI put their logo on them if they were, as William said), but the speed, temperature range, etc. requirements for a desktop calculator are not that high. Low cost is a requirement, and selecting something more manufacturable may well help that. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 17 15:00:15 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 14:00:15 -0700 Subject: FYI: Soroc IQ 120 terminal manuals now on bitsavers Message-ID: I just noticed this, but Al added them on Nov. 25th. Theory of Operation has all the schematics, parts lists, etc., that you would need in order to repair one of these puppies. I have one with a slightly damaged case that will need some refurbishing/checkout before I turn it on. Thanks, Al! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Dec 17 16:20:31 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 14:20:31 -0800 Subject: more or less [OT]: A new standard for lists? In-Reply-To: References: <4D0A93C0.2030303@gmail.com> <4D0A9825.20406@bitsavers.org> <4D0A339D.28132.1CAC87C@cclist.sydex.com> <10CCE3CB301D40C7A0A0EF30E41AF9F4@portajara> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard > Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 1:35 PM > To: cctalk > Subject: Re: more or less [OT]: A new standard for lists? > > > In article aXwcFx0DJFFBkMb5mhqEwz40z4TuNOfJZge at mail.gmail.com>, > William Donzelli writes: > > > > Hmm. Let me think. Isn't this called Usenet? > > > > Didn't Usenet die back in the late 1990s? > > Its still useful for programming discussions, but for all the > chit-chat type stuff its pretty much been replaced by the balkanized > world of inferior web forums. The distributed control nature of > usenet also lent itself to excessive abuse by spammers and the usenet > community never really came up with a useful way of dealing with that. > Many people retreated to mailing lists as a result of the spam > problem. > -- One of the more "amusing" hacks I saw: there were a whole load of oddly named groups in the alt group. Someone had done an ASCII rendering of Jerry Garcia's face such that using the NNTP command to list available newsgroups would cause it to be reproduced in the listing. Cute - and obviously someone who had waaaay too much time on his hands. -- Ian From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Dec 17 16:05:23 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 20:05:23 -0200 Subject: more or less [OT]: A new standard for lists? References: , <4D0A93C0.2030303@gmail.com>, <4D0A9825.20406@bitsavers.org> <4D0A339D.28132.1CAC87C@cclist.sydex.com><10CCE3CB301D40C7A0A0EF30E41AF9F4@portajara> Message-ID: <2004456860FC4177B963C3F0288489BC@portajara> > You now have me wondering if I shouldn't look into a hardware upgrade > capable of running mail lists. I have the network capacity, just not the > hardware capacity. Honestly though I have no desire to provide such a > service. If things worked the way I suggested, you could add/subtract resources to the "cloud" anytime you wanted :) And with distribuited processing, hardware/network requirements would be waaaaaaaaay lower. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 17 15:21:29 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 21:21:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Lead free solder foolishness - Was:Releasing sources/schematics. In-Reply-To: <4D05AD68.1090402@tx.rr.com> from "Charlie Carothers" at Dec 12, 10 11:21:44 pm Message-ID: > > And secondly, I am awkeward enough to want o make my own. Mainly because > > I could then use leaded solder. > > I thought that Steve Ciarcia wrote a *very* interesting editorial > regarding the utter folly of banning leaded solder in the June 2008 Unfortunately, since the demise of Borders bookshops over here, I can no longer get Circuit Cellar Ink off the shelf. And I didn't find enough of interest in each issue to feel it was worth subscribing to. So I have not had a chance to see this editorial. > issue of Circuit Cellar. I've been suspicious of and actually extremely > annoyed at the lead free solder idea from the start, and Steve makes a > pretty good case that it is not only a very poor electronics assembly > medium, it is terrible ecology as well! I've heard it said that tthe extra energy required to heat the solder bath to the highter temperature needed for lead-free solder does more environmetal damage than leaded solder would. Fortuantely, we (in the UK) are sitll allowed to use leaded solder for prototypes/home contruction, and for repairs on things that were originally soldered with leaded solder. But not for devices osld commerically (except for a few specific uses). So you can sell a kit and the builder can solder it with lead/tin solder with no problems. But if you sell the PCB pre-built, you have to use lead-free. Oh well.. Of course like most classiccmpers, I intend to minimiue the environmetal impact of my lead/tin solder by keeping the things I have made/repaired out of the landfill for many, many, years. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 17 15:30:07 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 21:30:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <4D0A1EEA.22465.179EC3A@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 16, 10 02:15:06 pm Message-ID: > Even more curious, is the reference in the title to "Assembler > Language" rather than "Assembly Language", as the purists would hav > it. Yes, the title is 'Assembler...' not 'Assembly...'. It suprised me too. > > If your book is an IBM publication, it shows only that IBM was > consistent in its inconsistency. It's not an IMH publication.. The publisher is Addison-Wesley, and the author is Geoge W Struble, University of Oregon. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 17 15:34:39 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 21:34:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <20101216222051.GC9982@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Dec 16, 10 04:20:51 pm Message-ID: > And I have a model 33 teletype here, with some provenance claiming an > IBM lineage, that has a slashed-oh between the I and the P keys and an > unslashed-zero next to the 9 key. > > Pressing the slashed-oh, sends 0x4F and pressing the unslashed-zero > sends 0x30... and conversely, it prints an unslashed-zero when 0x30 is > sent to it and it prints a slashed-oh when 0x4F is sent to it... Interesting. I did have a quick look in the Model 33 parts book when this thread started, but I didn't spot a type cylinder that had the chracters that way round. Probasbly I didn't look caefully enough. I think I read somhere that originally the zero, as the less used character in normal text, was the one that was slashed. But it was the 'less used' part that was carried over to computing, and since then digits necame more commopn than text (at lrast in the early days ...), it was then the letter that got the slash.. I am not sure I entriely believe this, though... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 17 16:08:15 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 22:08:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Unknown TI logic series In-Reply-To: <4D0B3BC1.25054.C47EB@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 17, 10 10:30:25 am Message-ID: > > On 17 Dec 2010 at 12:36, William Donzelli wrote: > > > They are interesting, but no more than weird numbers on semicustom > > devices. Motorola does the same thing, with their SC series of parts > > (not MC or XC).. > > It was very common back then. I have some 54175 cerDIPs that I > bought way back when that bear cryptic numbers, but they're National > parts, for certain--they were much cheaper than the correctly-labeled > versions. Don't forget that many large manufacturers had their own 'house numbers' for ICs. Teh HP 1820-series is the best know, but Xerox, IBM, ICL, etc had them too. It's certainly quire common to see a DIL package with a TI or National logo and an HP 1280- number. > > Of course, this comes from a time when "glue" logic cost real money. It still does... Or at least i find it does... -tony From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Dec 17 16:40:24 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 16:40:24 -0600 Subject: more or less [OT]: A new standard for lists? In-Reply-To: References: <4D0A93C0.2030303@gmail.com> <4D0A9825.20406@bitsavers.org> <4D0A339D.28132.1CAC87C@cclist.sydex.com> <10CCE3CB301D40C7A0A0EF30E41AF9F4@portajara> Message-ID: <4D0BE6D8.1020107@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> Hmm. Let me think. Isn't this called Usenet? > > Didn't Usenet die back in the late 1990s? No, we all moved to Usenet II - didn't you get the memo? ;-) (I'm still a regular inhabitant of a handful of usenet groups, though - some of them do still carry a high volume of useful traffic) cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 17 16:46:26 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 14:46:26 -0800 Subject: Lead free solder foolishness - Was:Releasing sources/schematics. In-Reply-To: References: <4D05AD68.1090402@tx.rr.com> from "Charlie Carothers" at Dec 12, 10 11:21:44 pm, Message-ID: <4D0B77C2.13040.F6ABA4@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Dec 2010 at 21:21, Tony Duell wrote: > Fortuantely, we (in the UK) are sitll allowed to use leaded solder for > prototypes/home contruction, and for repairs on things that were > originally soldered with leaded solder. But not for devices osld > commerically (except for a few specific uses). So you can sell a kit > and the builder can solder it with lead/tin solder with no problems. > But if you sell the PCB pre-built, you have to use lead-free. Oh > well.. I'm getting used to lead-free solder repairs. The latest was the PCB in a coffee maker--most people would simply have thrown it into the trash. All of the relay PCBs in my Volvo have been reworked using leaded solder after I started to see odd failures in the electrical system. You'd think that with the massive electronics recycling industry we have, it'd be simply to simply recycle the (leaded) solder as well. A major source of lead pollution was the frit seal on TV CRTs--but who buys a CRT television nowadays? The problem took care of itself. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 17 16:51:15 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 14:51:15 -0800 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: References: <4D0A1EEA.22465.179EC3A@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 16, 10 02:15:06 pm, Message-ID: <4D0B78E3.24044.FB13E1@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Dec 2010 at 21:30, Tony Duell wrote: > It's not an IMH publication.. The publisher is Addison-Wesley, and the > author is Geoge W Struble, University of Oregon. That's even more curious, as the computer and engineering disciplines are taught at Oregon State, not U of O (which is here in town). UofO teaches mostly football, it seems. It's been suggested that it be renamed Phil Knight University. Last year construction was finished on an academic center for athletes (big glass cube). Now, they're breaking ground on a football administration building. Sigh... --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 17 16:53:17 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 17:53:17 -0500 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <4D0B78E3.24044.FB13E1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D0A1EEA.22465.179EC3A@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 16, 10 02:15:06 pm, <4D0B78E3.24044.FB13E1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D0BE9DD.3040400@neurotica.com> On 12/17/10 5:51 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 17 Dec 2010 at 21:30, Tony Duell wrote: > >> It's not an IMH publication.. The publisher is Addison-Wesley, and the >> author is Geoge W Struble, University of Oregon. > > That's even more curious, as the computer and engineering disciplines > are taught at Oregon State, not U of O (which is here in town). > > UofO teaches mostly football, it seems. It's been suggested that it > be renamed Phil Knight University. Last year construction was > finished on an academic center for athletes (big glass cube). Now, > they're breaking ground on a football administration building. A "football administration" building? Good lord. How many hundreds of years will it be before we, as a society, outgrow the whole "sports" thing? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Dec 17 16:57:40 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 17:57:40 -0500 Subject: Lead free solder foolishness - Was:Releasing sources/schematics. In-Reply-To: <4D0B77C2.13040.F6ABA4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D05AD68.1090402@tx.rr.com> <4D0B77C2.13040.F6ABA4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > You'd think that with the massive electronics recycling industry we > have, it'd be simply to simply recycle the (leaded) ?solder as well. The lead from even junk consumer grade circuit boards has been recycled for quite a long time now. We still have lots of wars to fight. > A major source of lead pollution was the frit seal on TV CRTs--but > who buys a CRT television nowadays? ?The problem took care of itself. Yes, exactly. -- Will From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Dec 17 16:59:26 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 14:59:26 -0800 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <4D0BE9DD.3040400@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 12/17/10 2:53 PM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > On 12/17/10 5:51 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 17 Dec 2010 at 21:30, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>> It's not an IMH publication.. The publisher is Addison-Wesley, and the >>> author is Geoge W Struble, University of Oregon. >> >> That's even more curious, as the computer and engineering disciplines >> are taught at Oregon State, not U of O (which is here in town). >> >> UofO teaches mostly football, it seems. It's been suggested that it >> be renamed Phil Knight University. Last year construction was >> finished on an academic center for athletes (big glass cube). Now, >> they're breaking ground on a football administration building. > > A "football administration" building? > > Good lord. > > How many hundreds of years will it be before we, as a society, > outgrow the whole "sports" thing? > > -Dave I s the modern equivalent of the gladtorial games From rickb at bensene.com Fri Dec 17 17:20:44 2010 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 15:20:44 -0800 Subject: Unknown TI logic series In-Reply-To: References: <4D0B3BC1.25054.C47EB@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec17, 10 10:30:25 am Message-ID: Wang Laboratories had house numbers that were put on their IC packages. (http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/t-wangic.html). Some chips from vendors other than TI had the original part number covered up (usually by a white strip of paint), and an internal part number printed elsewhere on the package. Not clear if this was done by Wang, by some reseller, or perhaps by the original manufacturer. The parts with TI logos (mostly 7400-series TTL) actually had Wang part numbers put on them by TI, or at least so it appears. -Rick From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Dec 17 17:30:10 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 15:30:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <4D0BE9DD.3040400@neurotica.com> References: <4D0A1EEA.22465.179EC3A@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 16, 10 02:15:06 pm, <4D0B78E3.24044.FB13E1@cclist.sydex.com> <4D0BE9DD.3040400@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Dec 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 12/17/10 5:51 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 17 Dec 2010 at 21:30, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>> It's not an IMH publication.. The publisher is Addison-Wesley, and the >>> author is Geoge W Struble, University of Oregon. >> >> That's even more curious, as the computer and engineering disciplines >> are taught at Oregon State, not U of O (which is here in town). >> >> UofO teaches mostly football, it seems. It's been suggested that it >> be renamed Phil Knight University. Last year construction was >> finished on an academic center for athletes (big glass cube). Now, >> they're breaking ground on a football administration building. > > A "football administration" building? > > Good lord. > > How many hundreds of years will it be before we, as a society, outgrow the > whole "sports" thing? > Unless someone comes up with a virus that only kills stupid people, never. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From lynchaj at yahoo.com Fri Dec 17 17:42:00 2010 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 18:42:00 -0500 Subject: 6809, 6502, or 6802 computer Message-ID: Hi, I just received some PCBs for a 6809, 6502, or 6802 computer. The ECB host processor can either be a stand alone computer with the IO mezzanine board Alternatively it be connected to the N8VEM backplane and rely on the N8VEM SBC for IO or do both simultaneously. The computer board supports 6809, 6802, or 6502 CPUs depending on builder preference. You set configuration jumpers for the CPU you select. The 6809 CPU configuration supports the CUBIX, the 6502 CPU supports DOS65, and for 6802 and/or the 6809 there is a FLEX port in the works. More information is available on the N8VEM mailing list and N8VEM wiki. Please contact me if you have questions or comments. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Dec 17 18:12:53 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 16:12:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Lead free solder foolishness - Was:Releasing sources/schematics. In-Reply-To: <4D0B77C2.13040.F6ABA4@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Dec 17, 10 02:46:26 pm" Message-ID: <201012180012.oBI0Cr7L019572@floodgap.com> > You'd think that with the massive electronics recycling industry we > have, it'd be simply to simply recycle the (leaded) solder as well. > A major source of lead pollution was the frit seal on TV CRTs--but > who buys a CRT television nowadays? The problem took care of itself. For some reason Cheap Trick's reworked Green Police popped in my head right then. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- How are you gentlemen? All your base are belong to us! --------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Dec 17 18:17:33 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 16:17:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: more or less [OT]: A new standard for lists? In-Reply-To: <4D0BE6D8.1020107@gmail.com> from Jules Richardson at "Dec 17, 10 04:40:24 pm" Message-ID: <201012180017.oBI0HXJA019694@floodgap.com> > > > Hmm. Let me think. Isn't this called Usenet? > > > > Didn't Usenet die back in the late 1990s? > > No, we all moved to Usenet II - didn't you get the memo? ;-) > (I'm still a regular inhabitant of a handful of usenet groups, though - some > of them do still carry a high volume of useful traffic) alt.obituaries comes to mind in my personal .newsrc, probably quite a few in rec.* also. (fellow continued Usenet denizen) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TRUE HEADLINE: Astronaut Takes Blame for Gas in Spacecraft ----------------- From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 17 18:40:51 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 00:40:51 +0000 Subject: Lead free solder foolishness - Was:Releasing sources/schematics. In-Reply-To: References: <4D05AD68.1090402@tx.rr.com> <4D0B77C2.13040.F6ABA4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D0C0313.7060700@aurigae.demon.co.uk> On 17/12/2010 22:57, William Donzelli wrote: >> A major source of lead pollution was the frit seal on TV CRTs--but >> who buys a CRT television nowadays? The problem took care of itself. > > Yes, exactly. To be honest both of the TVs I actually watch (as opposed to the ones I use as monitors for my clasic comp gear), ar CRT and will stay that way as long ast they continue to work (or can be repaired). Believe it or not I actually prefer the way they look for watching TV on, but then again I'm not one of the majority that seems to want the TV dominating my home, I'm not that interested in Hi def, presisely because I don't want a 3 meter wide screen, so with my 32" widescreen CRT standard def is fine.... Just IMHO :) Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 17 19:24:49 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 17:24:49 -0800 Subject: Lead free solder foolishness - Was:Releasing sources/schematics. In-Reply-To: <4D0C0313.7060700@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <4D05AD68.1090402@tx.rr.com>, , <4D0C0313.7060700@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4D0B9CE1.10678.187AC01@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Dec 2010 at 0:40, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > Believe it or not I actually prefer the way they look for watching TV > on, but then again I'm not one of the majority that seems to want the > TV dominating my home, I'm not that interested in Hi def, presisely > because I don't want a 3 meter wide screen, so with my 32" widescreen > CRT standard def is fine.... I got the TV we use to fit the wall space between two doors. It's a flat-screen 26" Samsung CRT model, not wide-screen. Works just fine for keeping the dogs amused. --Chuck From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Dec 17 20:49:35 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 21:49:35 -0500 Subject: PDP 11/24 and VAX 3500 available In-Reply-To: <003e01cb9ad6$c43ecd00$4cbc6700$@ntlworld.com> References: <365098.24913.qm@web56207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <003e01cb9ad6$c43ecd00$4cbc6700$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4D0C213F.60803@verizon.net> On 12/13/2010 10:02 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >> On Behalf Of silvercreekvalley >> Sent: 13 December 2010 12:53 >> To: cctalk >> Subject: PDP 11/24 and VAX 3500 available >> >> I'm thinning down my collection and have a PDP 11/24 and a VAX 3500 >> available - free but collecton only (UK). >> >> The 11/24 could do with a clean, but it looks to be complete and has the > often >> missing power key as well. Internally there are several cards. >> >> The VAX 3500 is in a desk side pedestal style case. It has wheels so can > be >> moved. In nice condition cosmetically. No idea what cards etc are > installed. >> Both units have never been powered up by me, and would need to be > carefully >> checked, etc before powering up. Given away as is - for spares or repair. >> >> Collection only. Contact me by email if interested. >> >> >> > It would help to say where in the UK. I wouldn't mind a PDP-11 but I don't > think I have the space. > > Regards > > Rob > > your kidding. Why not a 11/53, MicroPDP11. That's a QBus pdp-11 in a pedestal and not at all big. Allison From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Dec 17 20:48:42 2010 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 21:48:42 -0500 Subject: more or less [OT]: A new standard for lists? Message-ID: > Didn't Usenet die back in the late 1990s? Every September. Wait, is September 1993 over yet? Tim. From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Dec 17 21:02:40 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 22:02:40 -0500 Subject: Need help with Project Northstar/Data I/O System-19/ADM Terminals In-Reply-To: <4D06342A.9010501@execpc.com> References: <4D06342A.9010501@execpc.com> Message-ID: <4D0C2450.9030409@verizon.net> On 12/13/2010 09:56 AM, Robert J. Stevens wrote: > I am trying to restore a N* Horizon,. So far I have got the ZPB-A2 CPU > card working. I added the Prom Option and am using a 2708 EPROM with > Monitor Code by Dave Dunfield. A Friend burnt the Prom for me but I > has a problem and doesn't get the Keyboard Input. I have tried several > times to Burn a new Prom with my D/I Sys-19 but they don't behave as > they should. I have a SOL20 System/Bus Probe Card that single steps > from the get go and I can step through the Code and see how it behaves > in relation to the .lst listing. I have been using my Canon Book 10 > running "TERM" to talk to the N*. It talks OK to the Sys-19 as well as > other machines. I lost both of my Televideo 920/25's. I had three ADM > LSI's in the Shed/Barn but the Field mice made their nests in two. The > one that was untouched I brought in the Other day and It lights up the > Mini-Tracker showing that the ADM is setup as DTE. But I get no > response from the Keyboard. Tried looping back 2-3 but no display. > Don't see any Raster but the tube POPs up a spot when turned off. I am > going to try to pull the Mother board out of the Other Micey ADM. > Maybe I can swap the M/B's and see if that CRT is working. Same for > the One still in the Barn. > What would my chances be of soaking it and getting all the CRAP off it > and having it WORK????? probably ZILCH. Chances are very good it will work. The process is to wash it with water and very mild soap (woolite is good), then rinse, then rinse(not a typo) then rinse in 91% isopropanol (drug store). Air dry then oven dry at 180F or less. In that era PCboards after wave soldering were routinely washed in what amounted to a dish washer. The only item that can be twitchy for water is DIP switches as they are hard to dry out. Isopropanol and a can of compressed air works. One absorbs the water and the compressed air to move it out. I've used that approach on S100 board, terminal main boards, PC mainboards that were dust encrusted, whole communications radios (with some parts that cannot be wetted removed) and after 4 decades of doing that no damage from cleaning. My favorite method is the dishwasher with out the usual caustic (dishwasher soap is caustic) and nothing but water, boards usually look as good as new. > I bought about 5 2708's and If I can find someone who might load the > New Code for me I could send them a 2708 and E-Mail the .HEX file. The Parts must be UV erased before programming (usually 20 mins for old 2708s), verify blank before programming. Allison From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Fri Dec 17 23:00:32 2010 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 21:00:32 -0800 Subject: OT UofO (was Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing) In-Reply-To: <4D0B78E3.24044.FB13E1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D0A1EEA.22465.179EC3A@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" atDec 16, 10 02:15:06 pm, <4D0B78E3.24044.FB13E1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <470F71F1D865450A832EA66889CAA768@Vincew7> > UofO teaches mostly football, it seems. It's been suggested that it > be renamed Phil Knight University. Last year construction was > finished on an academic center for athletes (big glass cube). Now, > they're breaking ground on a football administration building. Twenty five years ago, I actually earned a couple of degrees in Computer Science from the UofO (and I never learned any football while I was there). Vince From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 17 23:51:32 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 21:51:32 -0800 Subject: OT UofO (was Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing) In-Reply-To: <470F71F1D865450A832EA66889CAA768@Vincew7> References: <4D0A1EEA.22465.179EC3A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D0B78E3.24044.FB13E1@cclist.sydex.com>, <470F71F1D865450A832EA66889CAA768@Vincew7> Message-ID: <4D0BDB64.27118.27BDEE5@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Dec 2010 at 21:00, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > Twenty five years ago, I actually earned a couple of degrees in > Computer Science from the UofO (and I never learned any football while > I was there). I don't doubt the UofO has a Computer Science degree program, but I've lived here for 20 years and would consider it to be a well-kept secret. --Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Dec 17 23:55:18 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 21:55:18 -0800 Subject: Need help with Project Northstar/Data I/O System-19/ADM Terminals In-Reply-To: <4D0C2450.9030409@verizon.net> References: <4D06342A.9010501@execpc.com>,<4D0C2450.9030409@verizon.net> Message-ID: Many moons ago, I was responsible for the electronics in a recording studio (in the days of analog). Given that the musicians usually smoked like stacks, I made a habit of taking home the PCBs from the recording equipment, running the dishwasher (with no soap, as Allison notes), drying them by hand and then airflow. Signal-to-noise ratios and reliability of control systems increased noticeably. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of allison [ajp166 at verizon.net] Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 7:02 PM To: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Need help with Project Northstar/Data I/O System-19/ADM Terminals On 12/13/2010 09:56 AM, Robert J. Stevens wrote: > I am trying to restore a N* Horizon,. So far I have got the ZPB-A2 CPU > card working. I added the Prom Option and am using a 2708 EPROM with > Monitor Code by Dave Dunfield. A Friend burnt the Prom for me but I > has a problem and doesn't get the Keyboard Input. I have tried several > times to Burn a new Prom with my D/I Sys-19 but they don't behave as > they should. I have a SOL20 System/Bus Probe Card that single steps > from the get go and I can step through the Code and see how it behaves > in relation to the .lst listing. I have been using my Canon Book 10 > running "TERM" to talk to the N*. It talks OK to the Sys-19 as well as > other machines. I lost both of my Televideo 920/25's. I had three ADM > LSI's in the Shed/Barn but the Field mice made their nests in two. The > one that was untouched I brought in the Other day and It lights up the > Mini-Tracker showing that the ADM is setup as DTE. But I get no > response from the Keyboard. Tried looping back 2-3 but no display. > Don't see any Raster but the tube POPs up a spot when turned off. I am > going to try to pull the Mother board out of the Other Micey ADM. > Maybe I can swap the M/B's and see if that CRT is working. Same for > the One still in the Barn. > What would my chances be of soaking it and getting all the CRAP off it > and having it WORK????? probably ZILCH. Chances are very good it will work. The process is to wash it with water and very mild soap (woolite is good), then rinse, then rinse(not a typo) then rinse in 91% isopropanol (drug store). Air dry then oven dry at 180F or less. In that era PCboards after wave soldering were routinely washed in what amounted to a dish washer. The only item that can be twitchy for water is DIP switches as they are hard to dry out. Isopropanol and a can of compressed air works. One absorbs the water and the compressed air to move it out. I've used that approach on S100 board, terminal main boards, PC mainboards that were dust encrusted, whole communications radios (with some parts that cannot be wetted removed) and after 4 decades of doing that no damage from cleaning. My favorite method is the dishwasher with out the usual caustic (dishwasher soap is caustic) and nothing but water, boards usually look as good as new. > I bought about 5 2708's and If I can find someone who might load the > New Code for me I could send them a 2708 and E-Mail the .HEX file. The Parts must be UV erased before programming (usually 20 mins for old 2708s), verify blank before programming. Allison From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Sat Dec 18 00:37:13 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 06:37:13 -0000 Subject: PDP 11/24 and VAX 3500 available In-Reply-To: <003e01cb9ad6$c43ecd00$4cbc6700$@ntlworld.com> References: <365098.24913.qm@web56207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <003e01cb9ad6$c43ecd00$4cbc6700$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <94C71864A4DA4486A7355CE04DF0A7FB@RODSDEVSYSTEM> I'm interested in either or both. I'm in Newbury (UK) Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt Sent: 13 December 2010 15:02 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: PDP 11/24 and VAX 3500 available > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of silvercreekvalley > Sent: 13 December 2010 12:53 > To: cctalk > Subject: PDP 11/24 and VAX 3500 available > > I'm thinning down my collection and have a PDP 11/24 and a VAX 3500 > available - free but collecton only (UK). > > The 11/24 could do with a clean, but it looks to be complete and has the often > missing power key as well. Internally there are several cards. > > The VAX 3500 is in a desk side pedestal style case. It has wheels so can be > moved. In nice condition cosmetically. No idea what cards etc are installed. > > Both units have never been powered up by me, and would need to be carefully > checked, etc before powering up. Given away as is - for spares or repair. > > Collection only. Contact me by email if interested. > > > It would help to say where in the UK. I wouldn't mind a PDP-11 but I don't think I have the space. Regards Rob From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Dec 17 11:01:58 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 12:01:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: AT&T 3B1 / 7300 / UNIX PC DMA Data LSI schematic In-Reply-To: <1292167589.3595.4.camel@ryoko> References: <1292167589.3595.4.camel@ryoko> Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Dec 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > > I'm trying to track down a copy of the schematics (if any still exist) > for the DMA Data LSI used in the AT&T Unix PC (aka the AT&T 3B1 or AT&T > 7300). > > The Technical Reference Manual scans which were posted here earlier > include the DMA Address LSI, but not the DMA Data LSI. Unfortunately > about 80% of the DMA logic is in.... *drumroll*... the Data LSI. The > Address LSI is basically a glorified presettable up-counter. > > These should be in the AT&T UNIX PC Technical Reference Manual, if > anyone has a copy kicking around. I already have the DMA Address LSI, > Video LSI, 512k Motherboard, 1MB Motherboard and 2MB Motherboard > schematics. There is nothing pertaining to the DMA Data LSI in any of the documentation I have. Are you sure it was included in the technical manual? I scanned everything I have here. Steve -- From pinball at telus.net Fri Dec 17 12:26:14 2010 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 10:26:14 -0800 Subject: Unknown TI logic series In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D0BAB46.4020107@telus.net> Christian Corti wrote: > Hi everyone, > > we've had a look inside our IME 122 calculator and discovered that it > is full of SN14xx logic ICs. They are mainly from TI, but there are > also some from Motorola and others. It seems that they have the same > function and pinout as the SN74xx parts but there must be a difference > since the machine has quite a lot of SN1401 (the SN7401 is a quad > open-collector NAND), but there are no pullup resistors anywhere! > Some of the types are SN1400, SN1401, SN1474, SN1490; the ALU is made up > of SN1482 and SN1483. > Anyone knows this series? BTW the supply voltage is 5V. > > Christian > TI and others often produced "House Numbers" for companies that wanted to hide the 'real' part numbers of components. I would assume this is what you have here. Thus the SN1474 may not be a flip-flop (7474) as a result...they may well have jumbled the numbers around to make it difficult to copy the circuit. John :-#)# From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Fri Dec 17 23:01:22 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 23:01:22 -0600 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <4D04F22D.6714.1316CE7@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4D04E706.25075.105DAD9@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D04F22D.6714.1316CE7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D0C4022.6080005@tx.rr.com> On 12/12/2010 6:02 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12 Dec 2010 at 18:46, Mike Loewen wrote: > > >> The 129 models 1 and 3 could both punch and verify: > > Could be the 129 that I'm thinking of. I do know that there were > several variations of the 029; I seem to remember one even used as a > card reader and as a punch, but I can't recall the equipment setup. > Or maybe I'm thinking of a Univac keypunch that was used that way. > My mind gets muddled with age. > > re: Interpreters. The 557 was the one that I always ran into. You > could get blank cards printed with 60 column numbers in the first row > and 20 in the second for use with it. > > To a programmer, the annoying problem with the 557 was the limited > character set. Basically letters and numbers with a few punctuation > symbols. > > > --Chuck > > Legend has it that someone once got fired from IBM for turning in a suggestion form recommending that the CardAType plant be bombed with 557's. ;-) I'd imagine it is just a legend, but I think they were both pretty much beasts to maintain. Later, Charlie C. From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Sat Dec 18 03:48:35 2010 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 09:48:35 +0000 Subject: A Christmas Picture for the Commodore folks In-Reply-To: References: <622732.95995.qm@web113510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D0C8373.7060703@wickensonline.co.uk> On 16/12/10 19:51, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > On Thu, 16 Dec 2010, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> On Thu, 16 Dec 2010, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> >>> The toy army men escaping by digging a hole on the picture on the >>> monitor, and coming out the side of the monitor. Though I think one >>> of them is falling off the side of the desk like a lemming. >>> >> If you look closely, he's got a thread tied around him while the guy >> standing on the joystick is acting as the anchor. :) > > Ah! I was wondering what was going on with the guy on the joystick. > > Zane > Absolutely breathtaking - how long did this take? The attention to detail is staggering - even the reflection of the glare from the desklamp on the 1081 perfectly captures the anti-reflective coating. Mark. From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Sat Dec 18 07:04:09 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 13:04:09 -0000 Subject: Unknown TI logic series In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <63DC48189A56479A81A90E02D3A227D0@RODSDEVSYSTEM> The strange number may well have been there to prevent them being resold as full spec 74 series parts. As to TI not selling untested parts. Well go look at a DEC board full of TTL and tell me who made them. Hint DEC 100% tested all bought out semiconductors and in many cases put their own numbers on them. If you have your own testing facility why buy tested parts? Regards ? Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Shoppa, Tim Sent: 17 December 2010 19:14 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Unknown TI logic series > They are interesting, but no more than weird numbers on semicustom > devices. Motorola does the same thing, with their SC series of parts > (not MC or XC).. I tend to come in on this side too, these funny series are Effectively TI-supplied "house numbers". They may be different than stock SN7400 TTL or whatever DTL in minor or Major ways but that was an agreement between the customer and TI. I've seen the innards of DTL and TTL based calculators, and to think that They would work with rejects or floor sweepings is unreasonable. If Anything I would think that the house-numbered part would have some specs tightened And others loosened to produce something most manufacturable. And isn't That the reason for house numbers to begin with? (e.g. not purely obfuscation) Tim. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Dec 18 08:46:57 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 06:46:57 -0800 Subject: Need help with Project Northstar/Data I/O System-19/ADM Terminals In-Reply-To: References: <4D06342A.9010501@execpc.com>, <4D0C2450.9030409@verizon.net>, Message-ID: > From: IanK at vulcan.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 21:55:18 -0800 > Subject: RE: Need help with Project Northstar/Data I/O System-19/ADM Terminals > > Many moons ago, I was responsible for the electronics in a recording studio (in the days of analog). Given that the musicians usually smoked like stacks, I made a habit of taking home the PCBs from the recording equipment, running the dishwasher (with no soap, as Allison notes), drying them by hand and then airflow. Signal-to-noise ratios and reliability of control systems increased noticeably. -- Ian > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of allison [ajp166 at verizon.net] > Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 7:02 PM > To: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: Need help with Project Northstar/Data I/O System-19/ADM Terminals > > On 12/13/2010 09:56 AM, Robert J. Stevens wrote: > > I am trying to restore a N* Horizon,. So far I have got the ZPB-A2 CPU > > card working. I added the Prom Option and am using a 2708 EPROM with > > Monitor Code by Dave Dunfield. A Friend burnt the Prom for me but I > > has a problem and doesn't get the Keyboard Input. I have tried several > > times to Burn a new Prom with my D/I Sys-19 but they don't behave as > > they should. I have a SOL20 System/Bus Probe Card that single steps > > from the get go and I can step through the Code and see how it behaves > > in relation to the .lst listing. I have been using my Canon Book 10 > > running "TERM" to talk to the N*. It talks OK to the Sys-19 as well as > > other machines. I lost both of my Televideo 920/25's. I had three ADM > > LSI's in the Shed/Barn but the Field mice made their nests in two. The > > one that was untouched I brought in the Other day and It lights up the > > Mini-Tracker showing that the ADM is setup as DTE. But I get no > > response from the Keyboard. Tried looping back 2-3 but no display. > > Don't see any Raster but the tube POPs up a spot when turned off. I am > > going to try to pull the Mother board out of the Other Micey ADM. > > Maybe I can swap the M/B's and see if that CRT is working. Same for > > the One still in the Barn. > > > What would my chances be of soaking it and getting all the CRAP off it > > and having it WORK????? probably ZILCH. > Chances are very good it will work. > > The process is to wash it with water and very mild soap (woolite is > good), then rinse, then rinse(not a typo) > then rinse in 91% isopropanol (drug store). Air dry then oven dry at > 180F or less. In that era PCboards > after wave soldering were routinely washed in what amounted to a dish > washer. > > The only item that can be twitchy for water is DIP switches as they are > hard to dry out. Isopropanol > and a can of compressed air works. One absorbs the water and the > compressed air to move it out. > > I've used that approach on S100 board, terminal main boards, PC > mainboards that were dust encrusted, > whole communications radios (with some parts that cannot be wetted > removed) and after 4 decades > of doing that no damage from cleaning. My favorite method is the > dishwasher with out the usual caustic > (dishwasher soap is caustic) and nothing but water, boards usually look > as good as new. > > > I bought about 5 2708's and If I can find someone who might load the > > New Code for me I could send them a 2708 and E-Mail the .HEX file. > > The Parts must be UV erased before programming (usually 20 mins for old > 2708s), verify blank > before programming. > > > Allison > > Hi It is unlikely that there is a problem with the 2708s If the programmer said they were good, I'd expect them to be fine. The places I'd look are first the RS232 connection. The fact that the canon book works on one machine doesn't mean it will work on another. As well as the data lines, there are handshake wires that need to have the right levels. He said that he'd single stepped the code, what were the results of that? what did it do or not do right?? Dwight From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat Dec 18 09:37:48 2010 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 10:37:48 -0500 Subject: 6809, 6502, or 6802 computer Message-ID: <2AE44ECCB1364A038112B3D7612CFE92@andrewdesktop> _____ From: Andrew Lynch [mailto:lynchaj at yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 6:42 PM To: 'cctalk at classiccmp.org' Subject: 6809, 6502, or 6802 computer Hi, I just received some PCBs for a 6809, 6502, or 6802 computer. The ECB host processor can either be a stand alone computer with the IO mezzanine board Alternatively it be connected to the N8VEM backplane and rely on the N8VEM SBC for IO or do both simultaneously. The computer board supports 6809, 6802, or 6502 CPUs depending on builder preference. You set configuration jumpers for the CPU you select. The 6809 CPU configuration supports the CUBIX, the 6502 CPU supports DOS65, and for 6802 and/or the 6809 there is a FLEX port in the works. More information is available on the N8VEM mailing list and N8VEM wiki. Please contact me if you have questions or comments. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch Hi! I've gotten some questions on the N8VEM 6809/6802/6502 computer. There is additional information available on the N8VEM wiki. Over time it has spread out over several folders as the project has evolved. http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewAllObjects Please look in these directories for information http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder ¶m=6502%20Host%20Processor http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder ¶m=6809%20CUBIX%20-%20Stand%20Alone http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder ¶m=M6802 http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder ¶m=m6809 If you've got questions on the N8VEM 6809/6802/6502 computer please either ask me or better yet ask on the N8VEM mailing list. There is a lot of information on the mailing list in the archives. The 68xx/65xx hobbyist community seems rather sparse these days so hopefully this will spur some renewed interest. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Dec 18 10:47:21 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 10:47:21 -0600 Subject: more or less [OT]: A new standard for lists? In-Reply-To: References: <4D0A93C0.2030303@gmail.com> <4D0A9825.20406@bitsavers.org> <4D0A339D.28132.1CAC87C@cclist.sydex.com> <10CCE3CB301D40C7A0A0EF30E41AF9F4@portajara> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 4:20 PM, Ian King wrote: > One of the more "amusing" hacks I saw: there were a whole load of oddly named groups in the alt group. ?Someone had done an ASCII rendering of Jerry Garcia's face In a similar vein, there were the (IIRC) "alt.att.you.will.*" groups. That string was followed by a series of *s which, over 30 or so group names, made out the AT&T "Death Star" :) From tshoppa at wmata.com Sat Dec 18 11:29:57 2010 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 12:29:57 -0500 Subject: Unknown TI logic series Message-ID: > but the speed, temperature range, etc. requirements for a desktop calculator are not that high. I think you (or maybe someone else) may have hit it earlier with the suggestion of fan-out/fan-in requirements and maybe some specializations such as open-collector wired-or with built-in pullups at the receiving end. Later 7400 series chips for specialized functions (e.g. verge of SSI and MSI) had not-really-TTL-compliant inputs and outputs for specialized daisy-chain or low-fanin-load purposes. Look at the BI/RBO pin of a 7447 etc. (It's an input AND an output! Wow!) It's easy to see how this could be applied to some of the "stock" standard logic functions to greatly cut pin counts for a desktop calculator, and I suspect that's what the unique numbers are for. Tim. From trebor77 at execpc.com Sat Dec 18 13:13:28 2010 From: trebor77 at execpc.com (Robert J. Stevens) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 13:13:28 -0600 Subject: Need help with Project Northstar/Data I/O System-19/ADM, Terminals (dwight elvey) Message-ID: <4D0D07D8.20300@execpc.com> Message: 15 Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 06:46:57 -0800 From: dwight elvey RE: Need help with Project Northstar/Data I/O System-19/ADM Terminals (dwight elvey) Hi It is unlikely that there is a problem with the 2708s If the programmer said they were good, I'd expect them to be fine. The places I'd look are first the RS232 connection. The fact that the canon book works on one machine doesn't mean it will work on another. As well as the data lines, there are handshake wires that need to have the right levels. He said that he'd single stepped the code, what were the results of that? what did it do or not do right?? Dwight It just goes crazy as the Prom was not burnt correctly Bob Turns out that the Problem is that the Data I/O System-19 I am using doesn't want to load the Hex file as INTEL. It will only load a File if it is flagged as BINARY and that doesn't give a proper code Image. I am trying to get a fellow to see if his System-19 will load the file and burn the 2708 Properly then I can get mine Fixed I HOPE. I also have been Re-Erasing the EPROMs as I go along. Bob From melamy at earthlink.net Sat Dec 18 14:45:26 2010 From: melamy at earthlink.net (melamy at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 12:45:26 -0800 (GMT-08:00) Subject: Need help with Project Northstar/Data I/O System-19/ADM, Terminals (dwight elvey) Message-ID: <9350536.1292705126304.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> The Northstar mother board uses 8251s which require CTS to be active in order for the usart to transmit. There are jumper headers on the motherboard that allow you to strap them so they are active by default so you can use just a three wire RS232 connection. regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- >From: "Robert J. Stevens" >Sent: Dec 18, 2010 11:13 AM >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: RE: Need help with Project Northstar/Data I/O System-19/ADM, Terminals (dwight elvey) > >Message: 15 >Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 06:46:57 -0800 >From: dwight elvey RE: Need help with Project Northstar/Data I/O System-19/ADM Terminals (dwight elvey) >Hi > It is unlikely that there is a problem with the 2708s If the programmer said they >were good, I'd expect them to be fine. > The places I'd look are first the RS232 connection. The fact that the canon >book works on one machine doesn't mean it will work on another. As well >as the data lines, there are handshake wires that need to have the right >levels. > He said that he'd single stepped the code, what were the results of >that? what did it do or not do right?? >Dwight > >It just goes crazy as the Prom was not burnt correctly >Bob > >Turns out that the Problem is that the Data I/O System-19 I am using doesn't want to load the Hex file as INTEL. It will only load a File if it is flagged as BINARY and that doesn't give a proper code Image. I am trying to get a fellow to see if his System-19 will load the file and burn the 2708 Properly then I can get mine Fixed I HOPE. >I also have been Re-Erasing the EPROMs as I go along. >Bob > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 18 13:03:10 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 19:03:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Unknown TI logic series In-Reply-To: <4D0BAB46.4020107@telus.net> from "John Robertson" at Dec 17, 10 10:26:14 am Message-ID: > > we've had a look inside our IME 122 calculator and discovered that it > > is full of SN14xx logic ICs. They are mainly from TI, but there are > > also some from Motorola and others. It seems that they have the same > > function and pinout as the SN74xx parts but there must be a difference > > since the machine has quite a lot of SN1401 (the SN7401 is a quad > > open-collector NAND), but there are no pullup resistors anywhere! > > Some of the types are SN1400, SN1401, SN1474, SN1490; the ALU is made up > > of SN1482 and SN1483. > > Anyone knows this series? BTW the supply voltage is 5V. > > > > Christian > > > TI and others often produced "House Numbers" for companies that wanted > to hide the 'real' part numbers of components. I would assume this is > what you have here. Thus the SN1474 may not be a flip-flop (7474) as a > result...they may well have jumbled the numbers around to make it > difficult to copy the circuit. I assume everyone now realises how pointless this is. Given working examples of TTL chips, particularly in a circuit where you can indentify the power and ground pins, it is next-to-triival to work out what they are. I've done it many times to deal with those idiots who think that scratching the numbers of standard ICs (and not just TTL) will somehow make it more difficult to work out what is going on. It doesn't! However, house nunbers do have sensible uses too. Perhaps the IC eas selected for some parameter. Perhaps it went through more testing. I've even met a case where several different ICs got the same house number. They were, IIRC, op-amps, and the point was that any of them would work in the circuits that specified that particular house number. I guess whichever was cheapeast at the time was used. And it meant that the production people didn't have to worry about what to fit. If it had the right house number on the package, it would work. One thing I do find curious about the origianl post is that the ALU is made of 1482s and 1483s. As I am sure you are aware, the 7482 and 7483 are adders, and would be logical (groan!) choices in an ALU (althoguh I've got a TTL-based calculator here that doesn't use any adder or ALU chip...). Perhaps I am reading too much into the numbners, though. I guess the OP doesn;'t want to desolder any of the ICs. I probsbly would, and then carefully experiment wtih them on a breadboard. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 18 13:08:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 19:08:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Lead free solder foolishness - Was:Releasing sources/schematics. In-Reply-To: <4D0B77C2.13040.F6ABA4@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 17, 10 02:46:26 pm Message-ID: > > On 17 Dec 2010 at 21:21, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Fortuantely, we (in the UK) are sitll allowed to use leaded solder for > > prototypes/home contruction, and for repairs on things that were > > originally soldered with leaded solder. But not for devices osld > > commerically (except for a few specific uses). So you can sell a kit > > and the builder can solder it with lead/tin solder with no problems. > > But if you sell the PCB pre-built, you have to use lead-free. Oh > > well.. > > I'm getting used to lead-free solder repairs. The latest was the > PCB in a coffee maker--most people would simply have thrown it into > the trash. re you doing the repairs with lead-free solder, or leaded solder? I am told you cna use the later to repair the former (technically), but in the UK it's illeagal to do so commercially. But for your own stuff... > > All of the relay PCBs in my Volvo have been reworked using leaded > solder after I started to see odd failures in the electrical system. I see... A lot cheaper than the official repair of replacing the PCB (in my expeirence car electronic modules are a form of legalised robbery!), and doubtless much more reliable. > > You'd think that with the massive electronics recycling industry we > have, it'd be simply to simply recycle the (leaded) solder as well. I don't believe that's got much to do with it!. I am, alas, of the opinion that manufacturers want to make stuff that fails and can't be repaired after a rerasoanbel time (a few years) in the hope that you'll buy a new device. And if they can arrange this in a way that seems 'green' then so much the better. > A major source of lead pollution was the frit seal on TV CRTs--but > who buys a CRT television nowadays? The problem took care of itself. Well, I would if I could. I'd buy adelta-gun CRT-bnased TV if I could. I don;'t mind having to set up the convergence in the position it is to be used. Actually, given the choice I'd not have a TV at all. I cna think of little worth watching... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 18 13:10:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 19:10:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <4D0B78E3.24044.FB13E1@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 17, 10 02:51:15 pm Message-ID: > > On 17 Dec 2010 at 21:30, Tony Duell wrote: > > > It's not an IMH publication.. The publisher is Addison-Wesley, and the > > author is Geoge W Struble, University of Oregon. > > That's even more curious, as the computer and engineering disciplines > are taught at Oregon State, not U of O (which is here in town). Ths book dates fro 1975 (2nd edition, I think the first edition was 1969). I gues the university may have changed since then > > UofO teaches mostly football, it seems. It's been suggested that it > be renamed Phil Knight University. Last year construction was > finished on an academic center for athletes (big glass cube). Now, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Isn't that a contradiction in terms? > they're breaking ground on a football administration building. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 18 13:12:28 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 19:12:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <4D0BE9DD.3040400@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Dec 17, 10 05:53:17 pm Message-ID: Oh, don't get ms started... > How many hundreds of years will it be before we, as a society, > outgrow the whole "sports" thing? Far too many years, that's alL I can say :=-( I am convicned such things cause brain damage. FWIW, I have never taken part in any sporting activity or anything related. I have never watched any sporting activity or anything related. And I never intend to do either. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 18 15:45:28 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 13:45:28 -0800 Subject: Lead free solder foolishness - Was:Releasing sources/schematics. In-Reply-To: References: <4D0B77C2.13040.F6ABA4@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 17, 10 02:46:26 pm, Message-ID: <4D0CBAF8.15691.117643B@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Dec 2010 at 19:08, Tony Duell wrote: > re you doing the repairs with lead-free solder, or leaded solder? I am > told you cna use the later to repair the former (technically), but in > the UK it's illeagal to do so commercially. But for your own stuff... I repair with leaded solder. As yet, only New Jersey is the only state working on regulations akin to the EU RoHS. It works fine. > I see... A lot cheaper than the official repair of replacing the PCB > (in my expeirence car electronic modules are a form of legalised > robbery!), and doubtless much more reliable. You're not just whistling Dixie! A headlight relay for the Volvo can be had for no less than about $220. Open one up and there's a relay and a 4000-series CMOS IC and a few discrete components. Highway robbery indeed. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Dec 18 15:59:25 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 13:59:25 -0800 Subject: Unknown TI logic series In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40a2166282522b26aa0713d4174a2d30@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Dec 18, at 9:29 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> but the speed, temperature range, etc. requirements for a desktop >> calculator are not that high. > > I think you (or maybe someone else) may have hit it earlier with the > suggestion of fan-out/fan-in requirements and maybe some > specializations such as open-collector wired-or with built-in pullups > at the receiving end. > Christian was noting the use of presumed OC output devices (SN1401->7401) with no apparent pull-up R in view. I noted that I have seen the use of OC with no pull-up R in logic design using another series of ICs, so it's not unprecedented, and the 1401 may well, as presumed, be equivalent to the 7401. We might like to think of no pull-up R as poor design, but one can also see that a design could get away with it. TTL (and DTL) are current-sinking logic and the OC output cuts off current to an input even without pull-up R. The R is there to discharge the stray C of the junctions and connection, or more accurately it speeds up the discharge of the stray C. If you don't need the speed the design may get away without pull-up R. > Later 7400 series chips for specialized functions (e.g. verge of SSI > and MSI) had not-really-TTL-compliant inputs and outputs for > specialized daisy-chain or low-fanin-load purposes. Look at the BI/RBO > pin of a 7447 etc. (It's an input AND an output! Wow!) It's easy to > see how this could be applied to some of the "stock" standard logic > functions to greatly cut pin counts for a desktop calculator, and I > suspect that's what the unique numbers are for. That was quite an anomaly in the 7447, but off-hand it is the only IC I can think of that being done in. I did some more researching on the other noted oddball-numbered series, the DTL SN3900/4500. Found the internal schematic for the very common 900/800 series DTL (Tom Jennings' WPS web site) and compared it to that of the SN3900/4500. They are identical (including a "1.75K" resistor) except for the value of one resistor (3K/5K) for an internal transistor base pull-down (the discrepancy could conceivably even be a typo somewhere along the way). From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Dec 18 16:08:58 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 14:08:58 -0800 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <4D0B78E3.24044.FB13E1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D0A1EEA.22465.179EC3A@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 16, 10 02:15:06 pm, <4D0B78E3.24044.FB13E1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <12d92cfe8d663afa4d656ae2d3a87b95@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Dec 17, at 2:51 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 17 Dec 2010 at 21:30, Tony Duell wrote: > >> It's not an IMH publication.. The publisher is Addison-Wesley, and the >> author is Geoge W Struble, University of Oregon. > > That's even more curious, as the computer and engineering disciplines > are taught at Oregon State, not U of O (which is here in town). > This is the same book I mentioned for use of the slashed oh in listings (I acquired it in 1979 for a university course). Sample size of only 3, but apparently it got around. From evan at snarc.net Sat Dec 18 16:19:23 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 17:19:23 -0500 Subject: OT: F/S: Lots of books about the history of science and tech In-Reply-To: <4D08222E.9000602@snarc.net> References: <4D08222E.9000602@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4D0D336B.1010308@snarc.net> > I need money. Selling 53 books. These are all books about the > history and impact of sci-tech. Sold! From dbetz at xlisper.com Sat Dec 18 16:27:08 2010 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 17:27:08 -0500 Subject: Symbolics MacIvory 2 with 16mw of RAM Message-ID: <53C565F2-0A52-4328-9FDA-D82CD4FE655B@xlisper.com> Is anyone here interested in buying a Symbolics MacIvory 2 with 16mw of RAM? I bought this directly from David Schmidt of Symbolics a few years ago and haven't had much time to do anything with it. It came with a Macintosh Quadra 650 and a keyboard with a Symbolics overlay as well as documentation. It is all in working order. I'd like to find a good home for this. If you're interested, please contact me and make an offer. David says that the MacIvory 2 with RAM (maybe only 8mw) costs $999 from him right now so I don't expect to get that much. If you already have a Macintosh that will accept these boards (only the Quadra 650 or 900 I think) we can discuss buying just the boards and not the Quadra 650. That would make shipping much easier and less expensive. Thanks, David From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Sat Dec 18 16:43:39 2010 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 14:43:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP 11/24 and VAX 3500 available Message-ID: <951282.87317.qm@web56205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Thanks for all the interest - the two systems went very quickly and have been collected. From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Sat Dec 18 17:24:08 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 15:24:08 -0800 Subject: Symbolics MacIvory 2 with 16mw of RAM In-Reply-To: <53C565F2-0A52-4328-9FDA-D82CD4FE655B@xlisper.com> References: <53C565F2-0A52-4328-9FDA-D82CD4FE655B@xlisper.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 2:27 PM, David Betz wrote: > Is anyone here interested in buying a Symbolics MacIvory 2 with 16mw of RAM? I bought this directly from David Schmidt of Symbolics a few years ago and haven't had much time to do anything with it. It came with a Macintosh Quadra 650 and a keyboard with a Symbolics overlay as well as documentation. It is all in working order. I'd like to find a good home for this. If you're interested, please contact me and make an offer. David says that the MacIvory 2 with RAM (maybe only 8mw) costs $999 from him right now so I don't expect to get that much. If you already have a Macintosh that will accept these boards (only the Quadra 650 or 900 I think) we can discuss buying just the boards and not the Quadra 650. That would make shipping much easier and less expensive. > > Thanks, > David Oh man... I've dealt with David Schmidt and he's a great guy. I have an older Symbolics (big huge machine that sucks a ton of power when turned on) and one day I hope to own what you have (MacIvory). Awesome systems. Mark From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sun Dec 19 07:22:24 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 14:22:24 +0100 (CET) Subject: Unknown TI logic series In-Reply-To: <4D0BAB46.4020107@telus.net> References: <4D0BAB46.4020107@telus.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Dec 2010, John Robertson wrote: > TI and others often produced "House Numbers" for companies that wanted to > hide the 'real' part numbers of components. I would assume this is what you > have here. Thus the SN1474 may not be a flip-flop (7474) as a result...they > may well have jumbled the numbers around to make it difficult to copy the > circuit. But as I said they are wired just like the 74xx parts, i.e. the 1474 or 1476 have all the signals at the "right" pins like clock, inputs and outputs. A gate from a 7400 is often used as inverter by connecting the two inputs together, the same applies to some 1400. All pins from each 14xx type matches the corresponding 74xx counterpart. Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sun Dec 19 07:25:33 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 14:25:33 +0100 (CET) Subject: A Christmas Picture for the Commodore folks In-Reply-To: <4D0C8373.7060703@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <622732.95995.qm@web113510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4D0C8373.7060703@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Dec 2010, Mark Wickens wrote: > The attention to detail is staggering - even the reflection of the glare from > the desklamp on the 1081 perfectly captures the anti-reflective coating. My 1081 does not have an anti-reflective coating, and its power-LED is red. But the picture is great, have it as desktop background image now. Only the aspect ratio is, well, a bit insane... would prefer a 4:3 image. Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sun Dec 19 07:31:52 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 14:31:52 +0100 (CET) Subject: Unknown TI logic series In-Reply-To: <63DC48189A56479A81A90E02D3A227D0@RODSDEVSYSTEM> References: <63DC48189A56479A81A90E02D3A227D0@RODSDEVSYSTEM> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Dec 2010, Rod Smallwood wrote: > If you have your own testing facility why buy tested parts? It was very common with tubes, too. You can find many German tubes with the marking "G.Abl." (=Garantieabl?sung), meaning that the tube manufacturer (e.g. Valvo) would not guarantee anything as they were sold untested (and cheaper). They were mainly used by industrial and testing equipment manufacturers because they tested these parts anyways. Christian From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Sun Dec 19 09:15:32 2010 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 10:15:32 -0500 Subject: more or less [OT]: A new standard for lists? In-Reply-To: References: , <4D0A93C0.2030303@gmail.com>, <4D0A9825.20406@bitsavers.org> <4D0A339D.28132.1CAC87C@cclist.sydex.com> <10CCE3CB301D40C7A0A0EF30E41AF9F4@portajara> Message-ID: <4D0E2194.8000704@30below.com> On 12/17/2010 11:02 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 7:12 AM -0200 12/17/10, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> As some of you may know, Yahoo is flopping. And much of the lists of >> the world are on yahoo servers. > > Oh, not a good thought... :-( My main lists these days (all Photography > related) are hosted on Yahoo servers. :-( > >> I still think these lists should run in private servers. Everyone >> though of Yahoo as a reliable company, that "would just never dies". >> This is another nail on the coffin. Everything can happen - AND >> HAPPENS - with a company like yahoo. > > This is the way it used to be, there are reasons why almost all lists, > are now hosted on Yahoo (how many besides this one are hosted > elsewhere). I can think of one other list I'm still on that is hosted by > someone other than Yahoo, and it has been dead for about 2 months now (I > forget how long it was dead the last time). Is it dead from lack of postings, or lack of connectivity/hardware/bandwidth/etc. Maybe I'm a bit thick, but it's not clear (to me) what the exact issue is and if it's "worth" moving to a new hosting site. If the latter, and it wasn't a "large" list, I'd be happy to host it on one of my servers... I don't have access to a lot of bandwidth, so it wouldn't be insanely fast, but it would be stable. > I've personally resisted the trend towards web-based BBS's, but there > are five of those I have accounts on, as they're the only way to > exchange data on those subjects. Personally I prefer email lists, and > consider them the most efficient means of exchanging information. As do I. > My hope is that if Yahoo finishes crumbling, they'll sell off their mail > lists to another company. This is how they got them in the first place. > Remember it used to be "One List". One of the Yahoo lists I'm on started > out on Fidonet! I was never on Fidonet, but with the way the current interwebs is going (spam, popups, etc.) I've been contemplating what it would take to set up a new Fidonet (or at least Fidonet-like) system - I would happily host a node on something like that. > You now have me wondering if I shouldn't look into a hardware upgrade > capable of running mail lists. I have the network capacity, just not the > hardware capacity. Honestly though I have no desire to provide such a > service. What type of scope are you thinking -- a few lists like this, or replicating Yahoo's scale? I host a classic computing related list[1] on my personal DSL line - about 200 subscribers, it can get fairly active at times (20-30 messages per day) -- but I also host 3 or 4 email domains with 10+ users each (including webmail) and I can still play WoW without (too many) hiccups[2]. [1] A list dedicated to Kyocera 80c85 based laptops - Tandy Model 100/102/200's / NEC 8200/8300's / Olivetti M10 / etc. [2] Is hiccough no longer a word? Spellcheck doesn't like it... ;-) The list is hosted on a 2.4GHz P4 with 512Meg RAM, and it hosts all the email/web/DNS/logging/etc. necessary for the domains I host, and doesn't break a sweat. I doubt it *could* as I only have 3Mbit down and 512Kbit up; the network would get hosed long before the hardware would be stressed. Depending on the scope of what you want to offer (archives, etc.) I would think that you could host a great many lists on modest hardware if you have the bandwidth available... but that's just me. It would be interesting to see the ratio of resources that Yahoo dedicated to its lists compared to all of its other services (flickr, websearch, etc.). Laterz! Roger "Merch" Merchberger From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Dec 19 09:32:47 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 13:32:47 -0200 Subject: more or less [OT]: A new standard for lists? References: , <4D0A93C0.2030303@gmail.com>, <4D0A9825.20406@bitsavers.org> <4D0A339D.28132.1CAC87C@cclist.sydex.com> <10CCE3CB301D40C7A0A0EF30E41AF9F4@portajara> <4D0E2194.8000704@30below.com> Message-ID: <274DDF08BB6B4261AB04D31437C8C043@portajara> > If the latter, and it wasn't a "large" list, I'd be happy to host it on > one of my servers... I don't have access to a lot of bandwidth, so it > wouldn't be insanely fast, but it would be stable. My eternal question is: Can't it be shared? Can't I build a server and let you use my bandwidth? (as soon as I have my new ADSL2 link turned on, I'll have 16MB up / 2MB down) > As do I. As do most of people, incluiding I. > I was never on Fidonet, but with the way the current interwebs is going > (spam, popups, etc.) I've been contemplating what it would take to set up > a new Fidonet (or at least Fidonet-like) system - I would happily host a > node on something like that. I was a node and it was nice. It happened well before the 'net in Brazil, so we shared the interstate/intercountry calls between us sysops and everything worked fine. > It would be interesting to see the ratio of resources that Yahoo dedicated > to its lists compared to all of its other services (flickr, websearch, > etc.). I could order a Sun Netra 5 running solaris, with tons of memory and some HDs, and make it join the party. Of course, if the load can be shared. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Dec 19 09:47:55 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 07:47:55 -0800 Subject: A Christmas Picture for the Commodore folks In-Reply-To: References: <622732.95995.qm@web113510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4D0C8373.7060703@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: At 2:25 PM +0100 12/19/10, Christian Corti wrote: >But the picture is great, have it as desktop background image now. >Only the aspect ratio is, well, a bit insane... would prefer a 4:3 >image. Letterbox it using your favorite image editing software. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From mikelee at tdh.com Sun Dec 19 10:49:51 2010 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 10:49:51 -0600 Subject: Ebay: Apple Lisa w/ Twiggys In-Reply-To: <274DDF08BB6B4261AB04D31437C8C043@portajara> References: , <4D0A93C0.2030303@gmail.com>, <4D0A9825.20406@bitsavers.org> <4D0A339D.28132.1CAC87C@cclist.sydex.com> <10CCE3CB301D40C7A0A0EF30E41AF9F4@portajara> <4D0E2194.8000704@30below.com> <274DDF08BB6B4261AB04D31437C8C043@portajara> Message-ID: <4D0E37AF.7040703@tdh.com> FYI, Not mine, (I wish), another high value classiccmp on ebay: Item Number: 290511644520 From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Dec 19 11:46:45 2010 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 06:46:45 +1300 Subject: Apple Lisa w/ Twiggys References: , <4D0A93C0.2030303@gmail.com>, <4D0A9825.20406@bitsavers.org> <4D0A339D.28132.1CAC87C@cclist.sydex.com> <10CCE3CB301D40C7A0A0EF30E41AF9F4@portajara> <4D0E2194.8000704@30below.com><274DDF08BB6B4261AB04D31437C8C043@portajara> <4D0E37AF.7040703@tdh.com> Message-ID: <83A017CEC5D2437FB14B08EF08A04782@massey.ac.nz> Far out! I wish my Lisas 2s were Lisa 1s. It would be nice to get rid of the mortgage! Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Lee" To: Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 5:49 AM Subject: Ebay: Apple Lisa w/ Twiggys > FYI, > > Not mine, (I wish), another high value classiccmp on ebay: > > Item Number: 290511644520 > From rickb at bensene.com Sun Dec 19 11:53:07 2010 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 09:53:07 -0800 Subject: Unknown TI logic series In-Reply-To: References: <4D0BAB46.4020107@telus.net> from "John Robertson" at Dec 17, 10 10:26:14 am Message-ID: While this posting doesn't address the SN14xx-chips the original poster queried about, there is another machine that I have that has some TI-made SN12xx chips that I was able to find the story of that may be of interest to others. The Friden 115x (Printing) and 116x (CRT Display) calculators use three interesting TI chips that have SN12xx part numbers that I know to be custom chips made for Singer by TI. The Friden 130/132 calculators, the predecessors to the 115x/116x lines, didn't have adders in the classic sense. These machines are all based on counters. The original architecture of the EC-130 was based on a series of four five-bit counters that were interconnected in different ways (by mostly gating logic) to allow them, by counting up and down, to perform the math operations. After the 130 was introduced, in the process of developing the EC-132 (which added square root), it was realized that all of the functionality could be done with three counters rather than four, and a rework was done of the EC-130 boardsets to use this realization to reduce the part count, and thus the manufacturing cost. A few EC-132's were also made with the four-counter architecture, but soon into production the EC-132 was also changed to the three-counter design. Each of the three counters had a slightly different logic design. The goal of the 115x/116x calculators was basically to shrink the machines down by using IC logic rather than discrete transistors. These machines were implemented using a mix of small-scale DTL and TTL devices. Friden didn't seem picky about vendor...there are chips made by Signetics (7400-series TTL), Motorola (MC8xx DTL), TI (7400-Series TTL, SN158xx DTL) all in 14 & 16-pin plastic DIPs. Along with all the SSI devices, there are three 24-pin MSI devices, part number SN1286, SN1287, and SN1288. These chips, which were custom made for Friden by TI (this is mentioned in discussions I've had with one of the engineers that worked on the development of the machines), implement the three counters. Is it possible that the SX12xx-series TI part numbers were for custom devices? Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sun Dec 19 12:17:40 2010 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 10:17:40 -0800 Subject: Ebay: Apple Lisa w/ Twiggys In-Reply-To: <4D0E37AF.7040703@tdh.com> References: <4D0A93C0.2030303@gmail.com> <4D0A9825.20406@bitsavers.org> <4D0A339D.28132.1CAC87C@cclist.sydex.com> <10CCE3CB301D40C7A0A0EF30E41AF9F4@portajara> <4D0E2194.8000704@30below.com> <274DDF08BB6B4261AB04D31437C8C043@portajara> <4D0E37AF.7040703@tdh.com> Message-ID: > Not mine, (I wish), another high value classiccmp on ebay: > > Item Number: 290511644520 > WOW! And I sold mine to Jim Willing for $100 15 years ago. I should have kept it. Paxton Astoria -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Dec 19 12:28:40 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 13:28:40 -0500 Subject: Unknown TI logic series In-Reply-To: <63DC48189A56479A81A90E02D3A227D0@RODSDEVSYSTEM> References: <63DC48189A56479A81A90E02D3A227D0@RODSDEVSYSTEM> Message-ID: > As to TI not selling untested parts. Well go look at a DEC board full of TTL > and tell me who made them. Hint DEC 100% tested all bought out > semiconductors and in many cases put their own numbers on them. > > If you have your own testing facility why buy tested parts? In house testing was reasonably common back in the 1970s simply because integrated circuit technology just was not anywhere near what it is today. For the past ten or twenty years, a manufacturer could pretty much assume that every part received from an IC vendor is basically perfect - a 100 percent yield out of the chip tubes. Any failed parts that get stuffed on the boards are faulty due to improper handling. This super quality can be traced to the constant fine tuning of the mass production and QC lines over many, many years. Rewind to the 1970s, and the story is different. There were many more vendors, due to the nature of glue logic - every 7474 is supposed to be the same over the 20-some vendors around. The problem was that not all the glue was the same, with very subtle differences in the parts. Perhaps one vendor might have very strict quality controls, yet another might let a few things slide, especially towards the end of the year. Likewise, many of these vendors were pretty new to integrated circuit manufacturing, like Sylvania, Transitron, Spague, and Stewart-Warner, and still had things to learn. Even the established vendors had only really 10 or so years of "real" chip production. Bad parts routinely slipped out of the factory. In those early days, it was quite hard for some of these "newcomers" to reach even 3N reliability (99.9 percent yield - in contrast, today 6N is reasonable). Well, one bad IC stuffed on a complex board can really throw a wrench in the works of a production line, so the expense of a IC test station could be financially justified. And as for DEC - remember that they sometimes used ICs in somewhat unorthodox ways that may not be tested for back at the vendor. It seem to recall that one of their favorite tricks was to use some of the internal "diodeness" of the input and output pins of line transmitters and receivers for clamping. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Dec 19 12:43:47 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 13:43:47 -0500 Subject: Unknown TI logic series In-Reply-To: References: <63DC48189A56479A81A90E02D3A227D0@RODSDEVSYSTEM> Message-ID: > It was very common with tubes, too. You can find many German tubes with the > marking "G.Abl." (=Garantieabl?sung), meaning that the tube manufacturer > (e.g. Valvo) would not guarantee anything as they were sold untested (and > cheaper). They were mainly used by industrial and testing equipment > manufacturers because they tested these parts anyways. That was a weird German practice and almost unknown with the big vendors in the US. Just about the only place you would really see a big vendor selling logo'd tubes with no guarantee is to the military, because the whole business model there is wildly different. During the dark days of World War 2, a few vendors did sell logo'd tubes marked SUBSTANDARD, but this program was *very* short lived (and pretty pointless, with the MR (Maintenance and Repair) program already in place). The big vendors would sell reject tubes to a 2nd tier of vendors, but these *never* had any logos or ID marks applied. They tried very hard to keep their names in no way connected to these "seconds", and were sold "out of sight, out of mind". In the US, if an industrial or test equipment manufacturer needed special testing for a tube, perhaps with tighter or weirder requirements, most vendors would do it for a price. Sometimes a new number would be given to a standard tube, or sometimes a discrete code would be printed on the tube. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 19 13:17:18 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 11:17:18 -0800 Subject: Unknown TI logic series In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4D0DE9BE.27701.2577AC@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Dec 2010 at 13:43, William Donzelli wrote: > The big vendors would sell reject tubes to a 2nd tier of vendors, but > these *never* had any logos or ID marks applied. They tried very hard > to keep their names in no way connected to these "seconds", and were > sold "out of sight, out of mind". There *was* sort of a retread business going with some small vendors testing old tubes, repainting them (bases in the case of a glass tube; the whole thing in the case of a metal one). and a new logo attached. You could pick them out by using a bit of lacquer thinner on the base of glass tubes--the paint would come right off. Come to think of it, I've even got a couple of 70's-era 7400-series ICs that have been painted and relabeled. I suspect that was more of a "house numbering" scheme, however. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Dec 19 13:24:52 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 14:24:52 -0500 Subject: Unknown TI logic series In-Reply-To: <4D0DE9BE.27701.2577AC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D0DE9BE.27701.2577AC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > There *was* sort of a retread business going with some small vendors > testing old tubes, repainting them (bases in the case of a glass > tube; the whole thing in the case of a metal one). and a new logo > attached. ?You could pick them out by using a bit of lacquer thinner > on the base of glass tubes--the paint would come right off. Yes, they were called "crooks". -- Will From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Dec 19 13:26:21 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 11:26:21 -0800 Subject: Unknown TI logic series In-Reply-To: References: <63DC48189A56479A81A90E02D3A227D0@RODSDEVSYSTEM> Message-ID: <9937c56e45e48c9bdfabe9f4f485ed8b@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Dec 19, at 10:28 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > And as for DEC - remember that they sometimes used ICs in somewhat > unorthodox ways that may not be tested for back at the vendor. It seem > to recall that one of their favorite tricks was to use some of the > internal "diodeness" of the input and output pins of line transmitters > and receivers for clamping. I'm reminded of the PDP-8/m front panel problem discussed on the list a few years ago, where the design was relying on non-specified behaviour of an IC type and turned out to be very dependant on both the manufacturer and time frame of IC production. (Collector triggerring of a 74175 FF: http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2006-September/224592.html) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 19 12:50:19 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 18:50:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Lead free solder foolishness - Was:Releasing sources/schematics. In-Reply-To: <4D0CBAF8.15691.117643B@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 18, 10 01:45:28 pm Message-ID: > > On 18 Dec 2010 at 19:08, Tony Duell wrote: > > > re you doing the repairs with lead-free solder, or leaded solder? I am > > told you cna use the later to repair the former (technically), but in > > the UK it's illeagal to do so commercially. But for your own stuff... > > I repair with leaded solder. As yet, only New Jersey is the only > state working on regulations akin to the EU RoHS. > > It works fine. Yes. I have been told that there are in fact several differnt lead-free solders, and in come cases it can cause (even more) unreliabilty to resolder with the 'wrong' one. On the other hand, lead/tin solder is compatible with anything :-). Quite how I am expected to know what lead-free solder to use on some item for which there is no chance of getting a service manual is beyond me, but I guess this is just another way of making things difficult to repair... > > I see... A lot cheaper than the official repair of replacing the PCB > > (in my expeirence car electronic modules are a form of legalised > > robbery!), and doubtless much more reliable. > > You're not just whistling Dixie! A headlight relay for the Volvo can Actually, many spares are legalised robbery. I used to joke that DEC stood for 'Darn Expensive Components' after some of the prices they quoted for spares for my PDP11s But that's by no means an isolated case. > be had for no less than about $220. Open one up and there's a relay > and a 4000-series CMOS IC and a few discrete components. Your are lucky that they used a recognisable IC. A lot of automotive stuff usese custom parts :-(. Of course this doesn't stop you resoldering them. Actually, the woekshop manual (factory, not 3rd party) for our Skoda says that the Instrument Panel Insert must not be dismantled. Now, the Instruemnt Panel Insert is the unit that cotnaisn the 4 analogue instruments (including the pointers/dials, all actually electroncially controlled), a coupel of LCD displays, warning lights (LEDs), etc. It also contains the odometer (obviously) and the immobiliser controller. So I could understand why there might be secrutiy features in it. But I can't find any more details > Highway robbery indeed. Oh, and 'special tools'... I can rememebr when special tools were only needed fro rearely-done jobs, when they genuinely were needed, and when you got the drawings ot make them in the back of the workshop manual. Now you seem toneed them for just about every job on a modern car, even the annual service. And the only reason you need them is because it's been designed to need them, it could have been designed so you didn't need them.Jsst another way of exteacting money from you for a special drift or spacer or... that you could turn yourslef if they'd tell you the dimensions... Oh well.. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 19 12:55:09 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 18:55:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Unknown TI logic series In-Reply-To: <40a2166282522b26aa0713d4174a2d30@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Dec 18, 10 01:59:25 pm Message-ID: > > Later 7400 series chips for specialized functions (e.g. verge of SSI > > and MSI) had not-really-TTL-compliant inputs and outputs for > > specialized daisy-chain or low-fanin-load purposes. Look at the BI/RBO > > pin of a 7447 etc. (It's an input AND an output! Wow!) It's easy to > > see how this could be applied to some of the "stock" standard logic > > functions to greatly cut pin counts for a desktop calculator, and I > > suspect that's what the unique numbers are for. > > That was quite an anomaly in the 7447, but off-hand it is the only IC I > can think of that being done in. I am pretty sure the 7446 (high voltage version of the 7447) and 7448 (active high outputs) do the same thing, but I guess you don't regard those as different. The epansion inputs on some And-Or-Invert gates (and thus the expanders that drive thim) are not normal TTL signals. In fact IIRC from looking at the shcemaitcs of said ICs, pulling them hard in one dirtection will burn out a transistor. I also noticed a current-sensing TTL chip in the data book (I was looking for something else....). I'll look up the detials if you're interested. -tony From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Dec 19 13:50:35 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 11:50:35 -0800 Subject: Unknown TI logic series In-Reply-To: References: <4D0BAB46.4020107@telus.net> from "John Robertson" at Dec 17, 10 10:26:14 am Message-ID: <171d4689ff0ebe380c2b7588a22ce949@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Dec 19, at 9:53 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: > While this posting doesn't address the SN14xx-chips the original poster > queried about, there is another machine that I have that has some > TI-made SN12xx chips that I was able to find the story of that may be > of > interest to others. > > The Friden 115x (Printing) and 116x (CRT Display) calculators use three > interesting TI chips that have SN12xx part numbers that I know to be > custom chips made for Singer by TI. > > The Friden 130/132 calculators, the predecessors to the 115x/116x > lines, > didn't have adders in the classic sense. These machines are all based > on counters. The original architecture of the EC-130 was based on a > series of four five-bit counters that were interconnected in different > ways (by mostly gating logic) to allow them, by counting up and down, > to > perform the math operations. After the 130 was introduced, in the > process of developing the EC-132 (which added square root), it was > realized that all of the functionality could be done with three > counters > rather than four, and a rework was done of the EC-130 boardsets to use > this realization to reduce the part count, and thus the manufacturing > cost. A few EC-132's were also made with the four-counter > architecture, > but soon into production the EC-132 was also changed to the > three-counter design. Each of the three counters had a slightly > different logic design. > > The goal of the 115x/116x calculators was basically to shrink the > machines down by using IC logic rather than discrete transistors. > These machines were implemented using a mix of small-scale DTL and TTL > devices. Friden didn't seem picky about vendor...there are chips made > by Signetics (7400-series TTL), Motorola (MC8xx DTL), TI (7400-Series > TTL, SN158xx DTL) all in 14 & 16-pin plastic DIPs. > > Along with all the SSI devices, there are three 24-pin MSI devices, > part > number SN1286, SN1287, and SN1288. These chips, which were custom made > for Friden by TI (this is mentioned in discussions I've had with one of > the engineers that worked on the development of the machines), > implement > the three counters. > > Is it possible that the SX12xx-series TI part numbers were for custom > devices? > I can't find mention of the SN12xx numbers, but together with the SN12xx a vague correlation I see in the 1969 TI databook is that SN1 are designs or numbers which do not originate with TI, that is, they are either custom or design/numbering originated with another manufacturer: SN179xx 900/800 series RTL from Fairchild SN178xx " " " " " SN159xx 900/800 series DTL from Fairchild SN158xx " " " " " SN154xx custom digital logic circuits From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 19 14:53:25 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 15:53:25 -0500 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 18, 2010, at 2:12 PM, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Oh, don't get ms started... > >> How many hundreds of years will it be before we, as a society, >> outgrow the whole "sports" thing? > > Far too many years, that's alL I can say :=-( I am convicned such things > cause brain damage. This is not in dispute. There's been a lot of media coverage here recently about (in particular) football players and concussions. And just two weeks ago, a youngish boy was struck and killed by a baseball during practice. Tragic. He'd still be alive if his parents had encouraged the pursuit if something a little more...you know, "evolved". India and China are now eating our lunch in terms of technological development and progress, due in part I'm convinced to our teaching of sports rather than science and engineering (or really ANYTHING else) in our colleges. And you know, India and China really have EARNED that lunch, and we deserve to have it taken away. It makes me sick. > FWIW, I have never taken part in any sporting activity or anything > related. I have never watched any sporting activity or anything related. > And I never intend to do either. Same here. "Playing ball" was fun when I was about five years old. After that, well, not so much. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Dec 19 15:25:39 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 16:25:39 -0500 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing References: Message-ID: <49DD7765F23A4DA6A53AA37985B3D959@dell8300> What's the problem with sports? Everyone is good at something and not good at many other things, if you can throw a football but cannot do engineering work then go play sports. You can argue about how society values professions, but I can't see why people cannot do what they are good at and make a living at it whatever it is. Ever think people want to be sports stars because every other profession has no job security and pays shit? I think kids going into engineering are stupid, they cannot make a living at it in the US same with programming and quite a few other brainy jobs. At one point in our history engineers, programmers, doctors and lawyers all pretty much made the same money and had the same respect, which of those 4 make the money now? So a kid died from a baseball, big deal. Kids die every year from being kids, always has been this way. If concussions were not that big of a problem we would probably know less about how the brain works then we know now. If all you teach kids is to never do anything they might get hurt doing, you might as well kiss off any human progress from now on. Some things that are unknown can be risky. Marie Sklodowska Curie died from complications of radiation, but her work on radioactivity advanced human kind quite a bit. Its a good thing Columbus discovered America because his calculations on the route to India were so far off that he would have died without hitting land that he didn't know existed (screwing up has benefits as well). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2010 3:53 PM Subject: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing On Dec 18, 2010, at 2:12 PM, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Oh, don't get ms started... > >> How many hundreds of years will it be before we, as a society, >> outgrow the whole "sports" thing? > > Far too many years, that's alL I can say :=-( I am convicned such things > cause brain damage. This is not in dispute. There's been a lot of media coverage here recently about (in particular) football players and concussions. And just two weeks ago, a youngish boy was struck and killed by a baseball during practice. Tragic. He'd still be alive if his parents had encouraged the pursuit if something a little more...you know, "evolved". India and China are now eating our lunch in terms of technological development and progress, due in part I'm convinced to our teaching of sports rather than science and engineering (or really ANYTHING else) in our colleges. And you know, India and China really have EARNED that lunch, and we deserve to have it taken away. It makes me sick. > FWIW, I have never taken part in any sporting activity or anything > related. I have never watched any sporting activity or anything related. > And I never intend to do either. Same here. "Playing ball" was fun when I was about five years old. After that, well, not so much. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL= From rich.cini at verizon.net Sun Dec 19 15:31:33 2010 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 16:31:33 -0500 Subject: IBM PC-DOS 1.0 question Message-ID: All -- I?m working on a side project to another thing I?m working on and I?m trying to compare code from DOS 1.0 and 1.1. I have the PC-DOS 1.1 files (all including IBMBIO and IBMDOS) but only disk images (Teledisk) for PC-DOS 1.0. Is there an easy way to extract these files from the disk image? Does anyone have these files already extracted that they can send me? I think I can convert the TD0 image to IMD, but the IMD tools seem to work at the track level on the image and not the file level, but any help would be appreciated. Thanks! Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun Dec 19 15:44:12 2010 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 16:44:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM PC-DOS 1.0 question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Dec 2010, Richard Cini wrote: > I?m working on a side project to another thing I?m working on and I?m > trying to compare code from DOS 1.0 and 1.1. I have the PC-DOS 1.1 files > (all including IBMBIO and IBMDOS) but only disk images (Teledisk) for PC-DOS > 1.0. Is there an easy way to extract these files from the disk image? Does > anyone have these files already extracted that they can send me? > > I think I can convert the TD0 image to IMD, but the IMD tools seem to > work at the track level on the image and not the file level, but any help > would be appreciated. In the Linux world, I would try using dosbox. Convert the TD0 to an IMD file, then use IMDU to convert the IMD to a binary image file. Start dosbox and use the IMGMOUNT command to mount your floppy image, and you should be able to copy the files out to the Linux filesystem. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 19 16:25:47 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 14:25:47 -0800 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4D0E15EB.7969.D2060D@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Dec 2010 at 15:53, Dave McGuire wrote: > Same here. "Playing ball" was fun when I was about five years old. > After that, well, not so much. Grown men and women playing children's games for big bucks. I'm surprised that there isn't a professional hop-scotch franchise. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 19 17:40:49 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 18:40:49 -0500 Subject: more or less [OT]: A new standard for lists? In-Reply-To: <4D0E2194.8000704@30below.com> References: , <4D0A93C0.2030303@gmail.com>, <4D0A9825.20406@bitsavers.org> <4D0A339D.28132.1CAC87C@cclist.sydex.com> <10CCE3CB301D40C7A0A0EF30E41AF9F4@portajara> <4D0E2194.8000704@30below.com> Message-ID: <4D0E9801.5010007@neurotica.com> On 12/19/10 10:15 AM, Roger Merchberger wrote: >>> I still think these lists should run in private servers. Everyone >>> though of Yahoo as a reliable company, that "would just never dies". >>> This is another nail on the coffin. Everything can happen - AND >>> HAPPENS - with a company like yahoo. >> >> This is the way it used to be, there are reasons why almost all lists, >> are now hosted on Yahoo (how many besides this one are hosted >> elsewhere). I can think of one other list I'm still on that is hosted by >> someone other than Yahoo, and it has been dead for about 2 months now (I >> forget how long it was dead the last time). The reason why many (by no means "all" or "almost all") lists are hosted by commercial services like Yahoo is that people (misguided people) seem to think they'll be more stable or better protected from disappearing. Nothing could be further from the truth...in fact, the opposite tends to be true. I myself host well over a dozen mailing lists on my network, some with hundreds of recipients, and even though I generally take a pretty lackadaisical view of those lists, they've been in continuous operation for over fifteen years. If I can do it, anyone can. Corporations? *spit* The suits will do it as long as they think it makes them money. The second it doesn't, it disappears. Period. It has happened to countless lists I've been on over the years. I don't trust anything being run on resources not controlled by someone who CARES about it for more than just profit. > Depending on the scope of what you want to offer (archives, etc.) I > would think that you could host a great many lists on modest hardware if > you have the bandwidth available... but that's just me. I generally don't use hardware that'd be called "modest", but the resource utilization represented by the lists I host is minimal. It really doesn't take much at all to handle a mailing list. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Dec 20 03:54:02 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 10:54:02 +0100 (CET) Subject: A Christmas Picture for the Commodore folks In-Reply-To: References: <622732.95995.qm@web113510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4D0C8373.7060703@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Dec 2010, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Letterbox it using your favorite image editing software. I don't think so, no software can fill the missing top and bottom parts (and the image already *is* letterboxed...). I don't want to crop the left and right sides, and I don't want to stretch the image vertically. For now, I've filled the borders with a dark blueish color. Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Dec 20 04:14:36 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 11:14:36 +0100 (CET) Subject: Unknown TI logic series In-Reply-To: References: <4D0BAB46.4020107@telus.net> from "John Robertson" at Dec 17, 10 10:26:14 am Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Dec 2010, Rick Bensene wrote: > The Friden 115x (Printing) and 116x (CRT Display) calculators use three > interesting TI chips that have SN12xx part numbers that I know to be > custom chips made for Singer by TI. Interesting, will have to have another look to our 1154 and 1162... > perform the math operations. After the 130 was introduced, in the > process of developing the EC-132 (which added square root), it was > realized that all of the functionality could be done with three counters > rather than four, and a rework was done of the EC-130 boardsets to use > this realization to reduce the part count, and thus the manufacturing > cost. A few EC-132's were also made with the four-counter architecture, > but soon into production the EC-132 was also changed to the > three-counter design. Each of the three counters had a slightly > different logic design. I think that this claim is wrong as we have repaired three EC-132s some weeks ago, and all have four counters (A, B, C and D), they are clearly visible and marked on the PCBs. The machines also had very different serial numbers. Even the boards on your site (http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/friden132.html) show the four-register version although you've labelled them "three register architecture". You'll see that the test connectors at the top of the sandwich-PCB have marking like A->B, A->D, B->C etc., and also ADV A and ADV D (advance A resp. D). The four counters are built all the same way, i.e. the flip-flop with 2N2635. They differ slightly in the logic driving the flip-flop drivers, the B and C can't shift, and D shifts in the inverse direction of A (it's more like a rotate with "top" bit inversed and fed back to the bottom FF). > devices. Friden didn't seem picky about vendor...there are chips made > by Signetics (7400-series TTL), Motorola (MC8xx DTL), TI (7400-Series > TTL, SN158xx DTL) all in 14 & 16-pin plastic DIPs. Yes, I remember the 15xxx parts in those machines. > Is it possible that the SX12xx-series TI part numbers were for custom > devices? Possible, but later the "real" custom devices were mostly MOS and had the TMC prefix (=TI MOS Custom). Christian From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Dec 20 08:36:36 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 08:36:36 -0600 Subject: more or less [OT]: A new standard for lists? In-Reply-To: <4D0E9801.5010007@neurotica.com> References: <4D0A93C0.2030303@gmail.com> <4D0A9825.20406@bitsavers.org> <4D0A339D.28132.1CAC87C@cclist.sydex.com> <10CCE3CB301D40C7A0A0EF30E41AF9F4@portajara> <4D0E2194.8000704@30below.com> <4D0E9801.5010007@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201012201436.oBKEahui094416@billY.EZWIND.NET> I guess I haven't been paying attention to news at Yahoo. They've made noises suggesting they'll eliminate listserves? There are many small (1-3 person) businesses whose primary email address is at a free email service like Hotmail or Yahoo. When something goes wrong, they are surprised to find "there's no there there" when they look for tech support. I've also seen small businesses who did have their own domain and reasonable email service, but who still used a free email account for some small yet business-critical function. Same thing. If you could download a backup copy of what's on the listserve, it might be a different story. I even backup my Gmail on a roughly quarterly basis. - John From jonas at otter.se Mon Dec 20 03:14:02 2010 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 09:14:02 +0000 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing Message-ID: > And I have a model 33 teletype here, with some provenance claiming an > IBM lineage, that has a slashed-oh between the I and the P keys and an > unslashed-zero next to the 9 key. > > Pressing the slashed-oh, sends 0x4F and pressing the unslashed-zero > sends 0x30... and conversely, it prints an unslashed-zero when 0x30 is > sent to it and it prints a slashed-oh when 0x4F is sent to it... I just borrowed a book from 1974 about JCL by a person who had worked as a systems programmer at IBM. In his coding examples, he consistently puts a slash through the Ohs and leaves the zeroes unslashed. I would assume therefore that that was standard practice for IBM mainframe work at that time. /Jonas From tingox at gmail.com Sat Dec 18 06:40:02 2010 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 13:40:02 +0100 Subject: 3B1 emulator: IT BOOTS! (sort of) In-Reply-To: <4D06E351.50301@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D06E351.50301@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: Hi, Nice work! On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 4:24 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > To make this work... > > * Install the LibSDL (Simple DirectMedia Layer) development libraries, and a > C compiler. On Debian/Ubuntu, you want to 'apt-get install' build-essential > and libsdl*-dev. You'll also want make, sed, awk and grep, which should > auto-install when build-essential installs. On Windows, you're on your own > (though a homebuilt SDL and mingw32 should work... in theory). > > * Grab the FreeBee source code: > ? ?http://hg.philpem.me.uk/3b1emu/archive/tip.tar.bz2 > ?And the ROM images: > ? ?http://philpem.me.uk/code/3b1emu/3b1_roms.zip > > * Grab ImageDisk from Dave Dunfield's website, and the Version 3.51 > Diagnostics Disk (.IMD file) from Bitsavers > > * Use Dosemu, DOSBox, or a conveniently located DOS or Windows box to > convert the .IMD into a .BIN file: > ? ?IMDU 01_DIAGS.IMD 01_DIAGS.BIN /B > ?Copy the BIN file onto the Linux box. > > * Untar the tarball, and cd into the directory it creates. > > * make Are you using the default make in Debian / Ubuntu? (GNU make aka gmake)? For fun, I tried to compile the source on my FreeBSD workstation, but both make and gmake choked on your Makefile. tingo at kg-v2$ uname -a FreeBSD kg-v2.kg4.no 8.1-STABLE FreeBSD 8.1-STABLE #3: Thu Sep 16 22:18:48 CEST 2010 root at kg-v2.kg4.no:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC amd64 First gmake: tingo at kg-v2$ gmake expr: syntax error "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 156: Missing dependency operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 161: Need an operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 184: Missing dependency operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 185: Missing dependency operator Unknown modifier ' ' "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 186: Missing dependency operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 187: Need an operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 188: Need an operator Unknown modifier ' ' "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 205: Missing dependency operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 208: Need an operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 211: Need an operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 215: Missing dependency operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 217: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 218: Missing dependency operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 222: Need an operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 226: Need an operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 227: Need an operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 237: Missing dependency operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 240: Need an operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 242: Need an operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 248: Missing dependency operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 249: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 250: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 251: Need an operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 252: Missing dependency operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 253: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 254: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 255: Need an operator Unknown modifier ' ' "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 256: Missing dependency operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 257: Need an operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 258: Need an operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 263: Missing dependency operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 264: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 265: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 266: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 267: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 268: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 269: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 270: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 271: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 272: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 273: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 274: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 275: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 276: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 277: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 278: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 279: Need an operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 284: Missing dependency operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 285: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 286: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 287: Need an operator Error expanding embedded variable. gmake: *** [all] Error 2 Then make: tingo at kg-v2$ make "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 156: Missing dependency operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 161: Need an operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 184: Missing dependency operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 185: Missing dependency operator Unknown modifier ' ' "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 186: Missing dependency operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 187: Need an operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 188: Need an operator Unknown modifier ' ' "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 205: Missing dependency operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 208: Need an operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 211: Need an operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 215: Missing dependency operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 217: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 218: Missing dependency operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 222: Need an operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 226: Need an operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 227: Need an operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 237: Missing dependency operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 240: Need an operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 242: Need an operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 248: Missing dependency operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 249: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 250: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 251: Need an operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 252: Missing dependency operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 253: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 254: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 255: Need an operator Unknown modifier ' ' "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 256: Missing dependency operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 257: Need an operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 258: Need an operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 263: Missing dependency operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 264: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 265: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 266: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 267: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 268: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 269: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 270: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 271: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 272: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 273: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 274: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 275: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 276: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 277: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 278: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 279: Need an operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 284: Missing dependency operator "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 285: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 286: warning: duplicate script for target "ifeq" ignored "/usr/home/tingo/work/freebee/3b1emu-feb84193a43a/Makefile", line 287: Need an operator Error expanding embedded variable. Normally, unfamiliar sources will compile with either gmake or make. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From jonas at otter.se Mon Dec 20 03:26:03 2010 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 09:26:03 +0000 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing Message-ID: > I've always wondered what the Scandanavians do to differentiate 0 > from O from ?. They don't differentiate 0 from O- Although when I learnt Morse Code (at a Swedish Army facility) together with a group of radio amateurs in the 70s, we were taught to slash the zeroes (contrary to the IBM mainframe people) and write the Es as reversed 3s. And Swedes always cross the 7s. About the letter '?' in Danish and Norwegian, which is written '?' in Swedish (with the r?ck d?ts) and pronounced 'er', it is obviously differentiated from Oh and zero in everyday writing by the slash or dots. What the Danish or Norwegian radio amateurs or mainframe people do to resolve the conflict they might have there, I have no idea. /Jonas From jonas at otter.se Mon Dec 20 03:56:05 2010 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 09:56:05 +0000 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Dec 2010 19:10:13 +0000 (GMT), Tony Duell wrote: >> UofO teaches mostly football, it seems. It's been suggested that it >> be renamed Phil Knight University. Last year construction was >> finished on an academic center for athletes (big glass cube). Now, > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Isn't that a >contradiction in terms? Now now, Tony, you are being unfair. I don't know about those Americans who play that game where they run around in padded suits and helmets, wrestling each other to the ground (I think they call it football for some reason), but not a few European athletes are intelligent people who do very well in ordinary careers when their athletic career is over. And you do know of course that Dolph Lundgren has a master's degree in chemistry? And he has studied at MIT... Brawn doesn't preclude brains. /Jonas From rickb at bensene.com Mon Dec 20 08:50:19 2010 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 06:50:19 -0800 Subject: Friden EC-130/132 boardsets (Was: Unknown TI logic series) In-Reply-To: References: <4D0BAB46.4020107@telus.net> from "John Robertson" at Dec 17, 10 10:26:14 am Message-ID: I wrote: > > perform the math operations. After the 130 was introduced, in the > > process of developing the EC-132 (which added square root), it was > > realized that all of the functionality could be done with three > counters > > rather than four, and a rework was done of the EC-130 boardsets to > use > > this realization to reduce the part count, and thus the manufacturing > > cost. A few EC-132's were also made with the four-counter > architecture, > > but soon into production the EC-132 was also changed to the > > three-counter design. Each of the three counters had a slightly > > different logic design. > To which Christian replied: > I think that this claim is wrong as we have repaired three EC-132s some > weeks ago, and all have four counters (A, B, C and D), they are clearly > visible and marked on the PCBs. The machines also had very different > serial numbers. > Even the boards on your site > (http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/friden132.html) > show the four-register version although you've labelled them "three > register architecture". You'll see that the test connectors at the top > of > the sandwich-PCB have marking like A->B, A->D, B->C etc., and also ADV > A and ADV D (advance A resp. D). > The four counters are built all the same way, i.e. the flip-flop with > 2N2635. They differ slightly in the logic driving the flip-flop > drivers, > the B and C can't shift, and D shifts in the inverse direction of A > (it's > more like a rotate with "top" bit inversed and fed back to the bottom > FF). > I will double check the photos of the boardsets in the EC-132 exhibit. The photos were from a spare boarset that I have, and I may have misidentified it. Thanks for pointing this out. The information relating to the different architectures I provided was taken from Friden's internal service bulletins, which I have copies of. Friden EC-130s with serial number 8500 and above were three-counter machines. Machines prior to #8500 were four-counter machines. Friden EC-132s with serial numbers 3902 and above were three-counter, with earlier machines four-counter I have seen both EC-130's and EC-132's with both architectures. I have three EC-132's, one of which is SN 1984, and it's definitely a four-counter machine, while the other two (SN 10663 and 11945) are definitely three-counter machines. There were some wiring differences between the machines, which did limit the compatibility of boardsets (e.g., not a good idea to put a four-counter boardset in a calculator made with a three-counter boardset, but there are specifics in the service bulletins that give a matrix of compatibility between the machines based on the individual board pairs. I need to scan these service bulletins and put them online on the museum website, but haven't gotten to it yet. -Rick From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Dec 20 09:20:08 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 07:20:08 -0800 Subject: A Christmas Picture for the Commodore folks In-Reply-To: References: <622732.95995.qm@web113510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4D0C8373.7060703@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: At 10:54 AM +0100 12/20/10, Christian Corti wrote: >On Sun, 19 Dec 2010, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>Letterbox it using your favorite image editing software. > >I don't think so, no software can fill the missing top and bottom >parts (and the image already *is* letterboxed...). I don't want to >crop the left and right sides, and I don't want to stretch the image >vertically. For now, I've filled the borders with a dark blueish >color. > >Christian The problem is not that it is letterboxed, as it isn't. It is at a strange aspect ratio. If you've filled in the missing areas with dark blueish boarders the you have already letterboxed it. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From rich.cini at verizon.net Mon Dec 20 10:03:15 2010 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 11:03:15 -0500 Subject: IBM PC-DOS 1.0 question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mike -- I hope this isn't a bother, but I extracted disk 2. Would it be too much of an imposition for you to do the same thing with this disk? Rich On 12/19/10 4:44 PM, "Mike Loewen" wrote: > On Sun, 19 Dec 2010, Richard Cini wrote: > >> I?m working on a side project to another thing I?m working on and I?m >> trying to compare code from DOS 1.0 and 1.1. I have the PC-DOS 1.1 files >> (all including IBMBIO and IBMDOS) but only disk images (Teledisk) for PC-DOS >> 1.0. Is there an easy way to extract these files from the disk image? Does >> anyone have these files already extracted that they can send me? >> >> I think I can convert the TD0 image to IMD, but the IMD tools seem to >> work at the track level on the image and not the file level, but any help >> would be appreciated. > > In the Linux world, I would try using dosbox. Convert the TD0 to an > IMD file, then use IMDU to convert the IMD to a binary image file. Start > dosbox and use the IMGMOUNT command to mount your floppy image, and you > should be able to copy the files out to the Linux filesystem. > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 20 11:18:58 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 12:18:58 -0500 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <49DD7765F23A4DA6A53AA37985B3D959@dell8300> References: <49DD7765F23A4DA6A53AA37985B3D959@dell8300> Message-ID: <4D0F9002.1060702@neurotica.com> On 12/19/10 4:25 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > What's the problem with sports? Chuck hit it on the nose: "Grown men and women playing children's games for big bucks." I have a major problem with the fact that we pay these people gazillions of dollars to play like children while the people working to cure cancer (etc) and make other REAL contributions to society are making practically nothing. > Everyone is good at something and not > good at many other things, if you can throw a football but cannot do > engineering work then go play sports. Or study medicine. Or turn a wrench building (not designing) spacecraft. Or fix cars. Or build houses. Or become a commercial pilot. (big bucks there!) Or do pretty much any other grownup activity that's actually productive. Further, this massive obsession with playing games affects the lives of far more people than just the ones playing. You've seen it; this whole country grinds to a halt when Superbowl time approaches. I can't get anything done for a solid week! And even outside of Superbowl time, it's TV TV TV all the time, watching other people play games. (not that sports is the only time-waster on TV, but from where I sit, it's a big one) That's the problem I have with sports. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Dec 20 13:21:53 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 11:21:53 -0800 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jonas Otter > Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 1:26 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing > > > I've always wondered what the Scandanavians do to differentiate 0 > > from O from ?. > > They don't differentiate 0 from O- Although when I learnt Morse Code > (at > a Swedish Army facility) together with a group of radio amateurs in the > 70s, we were taught to slash the zeroes (contrary to the IBM mainframe > people) and write the Es as reversed 3s. And Swedes always cross the > 7s. I was a ham first and a programmer later, and I recall the conflict between the slashed zero convention of code transcription and the slashed letter 'O' convention of FORTRAN IV. I learned to cope. :-) From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Dec 20 13:47:46 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 11:47:46 -0800 Subject: Sports! (was: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing) In-Reply-To: <4D0F9002.1060702@neurotica.com> References: <49DD7765F23A4DA6A53AA37985B3D959@dell8300> <4D0F9002.1060702@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D0FB2E2.5030401@mail.msu.edu> On 12/20/2010 9:18 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> Everyone is good at something and not >> good at many other things, if you can throw a football but cannot do >> engineering work then go play sports. > > Or study medicine. Or turn a wrench building (not designing) > spacecraft. Or fix cars. Or build houses. Or become a commercial > pilot. (big bucks there!) Or do pretty much any other grownup > activity that's actually productive. I'd wager that most people *do* end up doing this. There's only so many slots in professional sports teams, after all. (This, despite all colleges teaching nothing but sports these days. I wonder how that works?) As far as sports not being "productive," don't underestimate the value of the production of entertainment, camaraderie and social experiences. I'm not sure what the point of living would be if all we were was productive. I don't disagree that sports players' salaries are disproportionately large, but blaming that on sport itself is ridiculous -- blame capitalism if you must. There is a demand for it or they wouldn't command the salaries they get (it's not like it's coming out of your taxes), and just because you're not a fan doesn't mean others shouldn't be (or that others are childish for being fans.) Personally, I could argue that the money spent making "Star Trek" movies, TV shows and action figures could have been better spent, but I'm not about to start a discussion like that on this list, and I certainly respect the opinion of Trek fans. (Except people who like ST:TMP, that's just unforgivable.) > > Further, this massive obsession with playing games affects the lives > of far more people than just the ones playing. You've seen it; this > whole country grinds to a halt when Superbowl time approaches. It does? I don't seem to recall this ever happening, but maybe I've been blissfully ignorant. > I can't get anything done for a solid week! I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you're exaggerating, just a tiny bit. > And even outside of Superbowl time, it's TV TV TV all the time, > watching other people play games. (not that sports is the only > time-waster on TV, but from where I sit, it's a big one) And you're forced to watch this where you live? Must be *awful*. TV in general is -fairly- passive regardless of what you're watching. You don't ever watch TV, do you? Because that sounds like time you could be spending being more productive. Making REAL grownup contributions to society. :) - Josh > > -Dave > From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Dec 20 13:44:31 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 17:44:31 -0200 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing References: <49DD7765F23A4DA6A53AA37985B3D959@dell8300> <4D0F9002.1060702@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Chuck hit it on the nose: "Grown men and women playing children's games > for big bucks." I have a major problem with the fact that we pay these > people gazillions of dollars to play like children while the people > working to cure cancer (etc) and make other REAL contributions to society > are making practically nothing. Dave, I partially agree with you, but yo're having a short-sighted view of the whole situation. - Sports take a lot of sweat and luck for the one being on "top" and getting big bucks - A sport star who gets big bucks, takes with him a complete legion of beneficiaries. Lots of jobs, etc. - If you stop to think about it, they are doing something very pleasureful for big bucks. System admin isn't about doing something you love, for big bucks? :oD Greetz Alexandre, with a (insert expletive here) powerful Flu :( From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Dec 20 14:02:12 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 12:02:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Star Trek: The Motion Sickness was Re: Sports! was Re: Service bureaus was Re: Tek 4051 firmware listing was Re: are you still reading this? In-Reply-To: <4D0FB2E2.5030401@mail.msu.edu> from Josh Dersch at "Dec 20, 10 11:47:46 am" Message-ID: <201012202002.oBKK2Cg6019142@floodgap.com> > Personally, I could argue that the money spent making "Star Trek" > movies, TV shows and action figures could have been better spent, but > I'm not about to start a discussion like that on this list, and I > certainly respect the opinion of Trek fans. (Except people who like > ST:TMP, that's just unforgivable.) Actually, I liked it after Robert Wise cut out a lot of the fat. The director's cut is much more liveable than the original theatrical release. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- mouse, n: A device for pointing at the xterm in which you want to type. ---- From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Mon Dec 20 14:12:13 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 12:12:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Star Trek: The Motion Sickness was Re: Sports! was Re: Service bureaus was Re: Tek 4051 firmware listing was Re: are you still reading this? In-Reply-To: <201012202002.oBKK2Cg6019142@floodgap.com> References: <201012202002.oBKK2Cg6019142@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <640705.96876.qm@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Ditto... I quite like ST:TMP these days. It's more of a "pure" sci-fi movie than most of the others that came after it. As an aside... that movie cost an insane amount of money. $40M when it was first made. There was an interesting tidbit of info in one of the interviews on the Blu-ray extras. The Paramount execs were discussing who would direct the second movie, and one of them asked the question "Can he do it for less than 40 @#$@% million dollars?" ST:II cost something like $4M. Interestingly, many of the sets that drove up the cost of the movie were recycled in the later Trek movies as well as ST:TNG and the subsequent TV shows. Getting back to the subject of sports... I used to gripe about people getting into sports as much as they do, but I think they have their place. I also don't mind them when it's people spending their own money on them, for much the same reason that was presented below. People are free to spend their leisure how they see fit. I do think that the claims that they generate revenue for academia is spurious however. ________________________________ From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Mon, December 20, 2010 2:02:12 PM Subject: Star Trek: The Motion Sickness was Re: Sports! was Re: Service bureaus was Re: Tek 4051 firmware listing was Re: are you still reading this? > Personally, I could argue that the money spent making "Star Trek" > movies, TV shows and action figures could have been better spent, but > I'm not about to start a discussion like that on this list, and I > certainly respect the opinion of Trek fans. (Except people who like > ST:TMP, that's just unforgivable.) Actually, I liked it after Robert Wise cut out a lot of the fat. The director's cut is much more liveable than the original theatrical release. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- mouse, n: A device for pointing at the xterm in which you want to type. ---- From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Dec 20 14:20:52 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 12:20:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Star Trek: The Motion Sickness was Re: Sports! was Re: Service bureaus was Re: Tek 4051 firmware listing was Re: are you sti In-Reply-To: <640705.96876.qm@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> from geoffrey oltmans at "Dec 20, 10 12:12:13 pm" Message-ID: <201012202020.oBKKKquS013034@floodgap.com> > As an aside... that movie cost an insane amount of money. $40M when it was > first made. There was an interesting tidbit of info in one of the > interviews on the Blu-ray extras. The Paramount execs were discussing who > would direct the second movie, and one of them asked the question "Can he do > it for less than 40 @#$@% million dollars?" ST:II cost something like $4M. That was how Harve Bennett ended up captaining the ST:TOS movies. The executive in question was Charley Bluhdorn, who it must be recalled was responsible for several of Paramount's remarkable financial bombs such as Paint Your Wagon. The Mission: Impossible cast recalls this ruefully as their unit was routinely overbudget and attracted Bluhdorn's ire multiple times for the excesses, which the production team usually ignored. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Perl scripting: the ultimate open source software. ------------------------- From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 20 14:22:53 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 12:22:53 -0800 Subject: Sports! (was: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing) In-Reply-To: <4D0FB2E2.5030401@mail.msu.edu> References: , <4D0F9002.1060702@neurotica.com>, <4D0FB2E2.5030401@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4D0F4A9D.18054.9B5532@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Dec 2010 at 11:47, Josh Dersch wrote: > Personally, I could argue that the money spent making "Star Trek" > movies, TV shows and action figures could have been better spent, but > I'm not about to start a discussion like that on this list, and I > certainly respect the opinion of Trek fans. (Except people who like > ST:TMP, that's just unforgivable.) I don't care what professional sports teams spend on tossing a ball around and pretending that it means something Important. That's capitalism and their purpose is to make money. Fine--godspeed to them. My gripe is with a public university spending outrageous amounts of time and money on varsity-level competitive sports benefits no one. The UofO boasts a football coach with a 7-figure guaranteed annual salary; hundreds of millions over the last decade or so in construction alone. And the players get tuition--nothing more, since they're "amateurs" by NCAA convention. If they incur injuries that will cripple them for life, that's their lookout. Heck, it's been going on for a long time, I know. After all, I'm an old "Boilermaker"... --Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Dec 20 14:28:09 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 14:28:09 -0600 Subject: Sports! In-Reply-To: <4D0F4A9D.18054.9B5532@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D0F9002.1060702@neurotica.com> <4D0FB2E2.5030401@mail.msu.edu> <4D0F4A9D.18054.9B5532@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201012202028.oBKKSIx8010563@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 02:22 PM 12/20/2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: >My gripe is with a public university spending outrageous amounts of >time and money on varsity-level competitive sports benefits no one. >The UofO boasts a football coach with a 7-figure guaranteed annual >salary; hundreds of millions over the last decade or so in >construction alone. Keeps the alumni coming back and making donations. - John From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Mon Dec 20 14:29:49 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 12:29:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Star Trek: The Motion Sickness was Re: Sports! was Re: Service bureaus was Re: Tek 4051 firmware listing was Re: are you sti In-Reply-To: <201012202020.oBKKKquS013034@floodgap.com> References: <201012202020.oBKKKquS013034@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <861363.6359.qm@web83914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Interesting... I think it's interesting that despite the criticism by Paramount management... the movie still made a decent amount of money. Just not enough for their liking apparently. ________________________________ From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Mon, December 20, 2010 2:20:52 PM Subject: Re: Star Trek: The Motion Sickness was Re: Sports! was Re: Service bureaus was Re: Tek 4051 firmware listing was Re: are you sti > As an aside... that movie cost an insane amount of money. $40M when it was > first made. There was an interesting tidbit of info in one of the > interviews on the Blu-ray extras. The Paramount execs were discussing who > would direct the second movie, and one of them asked the question "Can he do > it for less than 40 @#$@% million dollars?" ST:II cost something like $4M. That was how Harve Bennett ended up captaining the ST:TOS movies. The executive in question was Charley Bluhdorn, who it must be recalled was responsible for several of Paramount's remarkable financial bombs such as Paint Your Wagon. The Mission: Impossible cast recalls this ruefully as their unit was routinely overbudget and attracted Bluhdorn's ire multiple times for the excesses, which the production team usually ignored. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Perl scripting: the ultimate open source software. ------------------------- From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Dec 20 14:32:18 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 15:32:18 -0500 Subject: Sports! (was: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing) References: , <4D0F9002.1060702@neurotica.com>, <4D0FB2E2.5030401@mail.msu.edu> <4D0F4A9D.18054.9B5532@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <9D3C7E810ECE4DD3A22790D53DCE0733@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 3:22 PM Subject: Re: Sports! (was: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing) > On 20 Dec 2010 at 11:47, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> Personally, I could argue that the money spent making "Star Trek" >> movies, TV shows and action figures could have been better spent, but >> I'm not about to start a discussion like that on this list, and I >> certainly respect the opinion of Trek fans. (Except people who like >> ST:TMP, that's just unforgivable.) > > I don't care what professional sports teams spend on tossing a ball > around and pretending that it means something Important. That's > capitalism and their purpose is to make money. Fine--godspeed to > them. > > My gripe is with a public university spending outrageous amounts of > time and money on varsity-level competitive sports benefits no one. > The UofO boasts a football coach with a 7-figure guaranteed annual > salary; hundreds of millions over the last decade or so in > construction alone. > > And the players get tuition--nothing more, since they're "amateurs" > by NCAA convention. If they incur injuries that will cripple them > for life, that's their lookout. > > Heck, it's been going on for a long time, I know. After all, I'm an > old "Boilermaker"... > > --Chuck > > Quite a few kids are getting badly hurt and are dying in Highschool football these days, its not a College and pro level thing anymore. Pro football isn't 100% paid for by fans anyway, how many teams extort city money (taxes) to get new stadiums built or they will leave for another city (Cleveland went through this when the Browns left to become the Ravens). From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Dec 20 14:40:49 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 15:40:49 -0500 Subject: Sports! In-Reply-To: <201012202028.oBKKSIx8010563@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <4D0F9002.1060702@neurotica.com> <4D0FB2E2.5030401@mail.msu.edu> <4D0F4A9D.18054.9B5532@cclist.sydex.com> <201012202028.oBKKSIx8010563@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 3:28 PM, John Foust wrote: > At 02:22 PM 12/20/2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>My gripe is with a public university spending outrageous amounts of >>time and money on varsity-level competitive sports benefits no one... > > Keeps the alumni coming back and making donations. Not all alumni. I haven't given a dime to my alma mater except to directly-fund a scholarship for a study abroad program that I participated in twice. I figured _that_ was worth some payback. But I do get your point that sports fame spurs many alumni to give. -ethan From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Dec 20 15:19:08 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 16:19:08 -0500 Subject: Star Trek: The Motion Sickness was Re: Sports! was Re: Service bureaus was Re: Tek 4051 firmware listing was Re: are you still reading this? In-Reply-To: <201012202002.oBKK2Cg6019142@floodgap.com> References: <201012202002.oBKK2Cg6019142@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4D0FC84C.6020704@atarimuseum.com> About the only tolerable part of the entire movie is the spacedock scene from when Kirk enters the shuttle pod and is taken over until it docks on the side of the secondary hull. Not too much else is really worth watching. Thank God for ST: II or the Star Trek franchise may have gone down the toilet all together due to TMP. Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Personally, I could argue that the money spent making "Star Trek" >> movies, TV shows and action figures could have been better spent, but >> I'm not about to start a discussion like that on this list, and I >> certainly respect the opinion of Trek fans. (Except people who like >> ST:TMP, that's just unforgivable.) >> > > Actually, I liked it after Robert Wise cut out a lot of the fat. The > director's cut is much more liveable than the original theatrical release. > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Dec 20 15:29:27 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 16:29:27 -0500 Subject: Sports! In-Reply-To: <201012202028.oBKKSIx8010563@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <4D0F9002.1060702@neurotica.com> <4D0FB2E2.5030401@mail.msu.edu> <4D0F4A9D.18054.9B5532@cclist.sydex.com> <201012202028.oBKKSIx8010563@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: > Keeps the alumni coming back and making donations. Universities pull in far more money licensing their sports images. If it were not for that, most of the public schools would be a run down shells of what they are now. Pretty simple - you need the football administration buildings to have the shiny new computers and labs. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 20 16:17:53 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 14:17:53 -0800 Subject: Sports! In-Reply-To: References: , <201012202028.oBKKSIx8010563@billY.EZWIND.NET>, Message-ID: <4D0F6591.4054.104A0E2@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Dec 2010 at 16:29, William Donzelli wrote: > Pretty simple - you need the football administration buildings to have > the shiny new computers and labs. As anyone would realize if they took a second to look at the record of football powerhouses such as MIT and Caltech... --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Dec 20 16:21:42 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 17:21:42 -0500 Subject: Sports! In-Reply-To: <4D0F6591.4054.104A0E2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201012202028.oBKKSIx8010563@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4D0F6591.4054.104A0E2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > As anyone would realize if they took a second to look at the record > of football powerhouses such as MIT and Caltech... Keyword being "public". Go back and look, you will find it. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 20 16:23:05 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 14:23:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: A Christmas Picture for the Commodore folks In-Reply-To: References: <622732.95995.qm@web113510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4D0C8373.7060703@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <20101220142008.J75700@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 20 Dec 2010, Christian Corti wrote: > I don't think so, no software can fill the missing top and bottom parts > (and the image already *is* letterboxed...). I don't want to crop the left > and right sides, and I don't want to stretch the image vertically. For > now, I've filled the borders with a dark blueish color. So, is anybody here good enough at PhotoShop or equivalent to add some more content to extend it? Maybe some Space Invaders ships above? From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 20 16:26:51 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 14:26:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101220142530.H75700@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 20 Dec 2010, Jonas Otter wrote: > Now now, Tony, you are being unfair. I don't know about those Americans > who play that game where they run around in padded suits and helmets, > wrestling each other to the ground (I think they call it football for > some reason), . . . > Brawn doesn't preclude brains. Unless you play without a helmet. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 20 15:15:31 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 21:15:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Dec 19, 10 03:53:25 pm Message-ID: > >> How many hundreds of years will it be before we, as a society,=20 > >> outgrow the whole "sports" thing? > >=20 > > Far too many years, that's alL I can say :=3D-( I am convicned such things= > =20 > > cause brain damage. > > This is not in dispute. There's been a lot of media coverage here recentl= > y about (in particular) football players and concussions. And just two week= Actually, I am convinced that even non-violent sports cause brain damage... > > FWIW, I have never taken part in any sporting activity or anything=20 > > related. I have never watched any sporting activity or anything related.=20= > > > And I never intend to do either. > > Same here. "Playing ball" was fun when I was about five years old. After= > that, well, not so much. Not even then in my case. My parents tried throwing a ball near me a few times, I ignored it and went back to staring at a clock mechanism, or something. Seriously, therewas nver a time when I didn't find machinery fascinating. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 20 15:29:16 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 21:29:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <49DD7765F23A4DA6A53AA37985B3D959@dell8300> from "Teo Zenios" at Dec 19, 10 04:25:39 pm Message-ID: > > What's the problem with sports? Everyone is good at something and not good AS I have said many times I feel that people should be able to spend their time doing whatever they want provided that doesn't have an adverse affect on people not involved with the activity. So, for example, if 22 people want to get together and kick an inflated sphere around a bit of grass, that's their business. Just don't expect me to want to take part. Similarly if I want to get together with some friends and restore an old computer, that's our businsess. I don't expect others to show any interest or take part. Just to let us get on with what we enjoy. > at many other things, if you can throw a football but cannot do engineering > work then go play sports. You can argue about how society values OK, and what about those who if they try to kick a ball will probably get it within +/- 1 radian of where they want it to go. On the otehr hand, said people can take one glance at a schemaic and figure out how to improve it. Shouldn't they alos be abnle to get a job doing what they can do best? > professions, but I can't see why people cannot do what they are good at and > make a living at it whatever it is. Ever think people want to be sports Preciesily. Now, I don't know what it's like in other countries, but from what I can see there are simply _no_ engineering or scientific jobs in the UK now. I have pelnty of friends with degrees (or higher) in such subjects, and preceisely _one_ is doing what he really should be doing. And taht does bother me. > stars because every other profession has no job security and pays shit? I > think kids going into engineering are stupid, they cannot make a living at > it in the US same with programming and quite a few other brainy jobs. At one I think that's my main moan too. This worries me, it wories me a lot. > point in our history engineers, programmers, doctors and lawyers all pretty > much made the same money and had the same respect, which of those 4 make the > money now? > > So a kid died from a baseball, big deal. Kids die every year from being > kids, always has been this way. If concussions were not that big of a > problem we would probably know less about how the brain works then we know > now. If all you teach kids is to never do anything they might get hurt > doing, you might as well kiss off any human progress from now on. Some I would agree with that too. Accidents and injurier are a part of life, alas. And although I am careful, I would not be suprised if I die from electrocution. After all, I work with dangerous voltages just about every day. But my problem is that school physics and chemistry are so dombed down (for 'safety reasons'). Many of the things I did at school would now me totally illegal. You don't get to use 400V PSUs any more (I did). Or evacuate home-made devices (I did). Or use a soldering iron . Or sharp tools. Or just about any chemicals. And yet youforce kids into an acrtivity taht can cause death (sports), even though they have no interst in it and can see no benefit from in. > things that are unknown can be risky. Marie Sklodowska Curie died from > complications of radiation, but her work on radioactivity advanced human > kind quite a bit. Its a good thing Columbus discovered America because his > calculations on the route to India were so far off that he would have died > without hitting land that he didn't know existed (screwing up has benefits > as well). Perhps you could explain how human knowledge is advanced by palying baseball (or any other similar sport). -tony From dundas at caltech.edu Mon Dec 20 16:42:09 2010 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 14:42:09 -0800 Subject: Sports! In-Reply-To: <4D0F6591.4054.104A0E2@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <201012202028.oBKKSIx8010563@billY.EZWIND.NET>, <4D0F6591.4054.104A0E2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >On 20 Dec 2010 at 16:29, William Donzelli wrote: > >> Pretty simple - you need the football administration buildings to have >> the shiny new computers and labs. > >As anyone would realize if they took a second to look at the record >of football powerhouses such as MIT and Caltech... We proudly boast we're "undefeated since 1993". [Actually haven't fielded a team since then.] But also, a season in 1944 when the team was not only undefeated, but unscored upon! Sadly, if you look at many of our computers... maybe a football team would help. John From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 20 16:54:10 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 14:54:10 -0800 Subject: Sports! In-Reply-To: References: , <4D0F6591.4054.104A0E2@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4D0F6E12.3262.125D782@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Dec 2010 at 14:42, John A. Dundas III wrote: > We proudly boast we're "undefeated since 1993". [Actually haven't > fielded a team since then.] But also, a season in 1944 when the team > was not only undefeated, but unscored upon! > > Sadly, if you look at many of our computers... maybe a football team > would help. Reminds me of the old Second City routine "Football Comes to the University of Chicago". --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 20 17:02:33 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 15:02:33 -0800 Subject: Sports! and Star Trek Message-ID: <4D0FE089.6050000@bitsavers.org> http://www.briancasey.org/artifacts/astro/moon.cgi just as I suspected, Full Moon From evan at snarc.net Mon Dec 20 17:16:28 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 18:16:28 -0500 Subject: Another "Commodore" PC ... with a twist Message-ID: <4D0FE3CC.5040204@snarc.net> This time they made it LOOK like a real Commodore: http://www.commodoreusa.net/CUSA_C64.aspx. Neat, but unfortunately its only support for vintage operation is emulator software. It needs a real C64 inside, a la Jeri E.'s projects. From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Dec 20 17:21:54 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 18:21:54 -0500 Subject: Another "Commodore" PC ... with a twist In-Reply-To: <4D0FE3CC.5040204@snarc.net> References: <4D0FE3CC.5040204@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4D0FE512.60601@atarimuseum.com> Well, let's hope something can be worked out. DC Studio's up in Canada owns the rights to the C64 chip she did as I understand, and they haven't done much with it over years, last product I saw was an unlicensed use of it by Mammoth Studio's in a off-roader plug n play game, but nothing much else, so it would certainly be nice to see it used in something like the new C64 computer... Curt Evan Koblentz wrote: > This time they made it LOOK like a real Commodore: > http://www.commodoreusa.net/CUSA_C64.aspx. > > Neat, but unfortunately its only support for vintage operation is > emulator software. It needs a real C64 inside, a la Jeri E.'s projects. > From evan at snarc.net Mon Dec 20 17:23:51 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 18:23:51 -0500 Subject: Another "Commodore" PC ... with a twist In-Reply-To: <4D0FE512.60601@atarimuseum.com> References: <4D0FE3CC.5040204@snarc.net> <4D0FE512.60601@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4D0FE587.4070200@snarc.net> Unlicensed? Wasn't Mammoth the same company that made her DTV? On 12/20/2010 06:21 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Well, let's hope something can be worked out. DC Studio's up in > Canada owns the rights to the C64 chip she did as I understand, and > they haven't done much with it over years, last product I saw was an > unlicensed use of it by Mammoth Studio's in a off-roader plug n play > game, but nothing much else, so it would certainly be nice to see it > used in something like the new C64 computer... > > > Curt > > > > Evan Koblentz wrote: >> This time they made it LOOK like a real Commodore: >> http://www.commodoreusa.net/CUSA_C64.aspx. >> >> Neat, but unfortunately its only support for vintage operation is >> emulator software. It needs a real C64 inside, a la Jeri E.'s projects. >> > From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Dec 20 17:25:50 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 18:25:50 -0500 Subject: Need help with Project Northstar/Data I/O System-19/ADM, Terminals (dwight elvey) In-Reply-To: <9350536.1292705126304.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <9350536.1292705126304.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4D0FE5FE.7020405@verizon.net> On 12/18/2010 03:45 PM, melamy at earthlink.net wrote: > The Northstar mother board uses 8251s which require CTS to be active in order for the usart to transmit. There are jumper headers on the motherboard that allow you to strap them so they are active by default so you can use just a three wire RS232 connection. > Reread the original problem statement. FYI CTS on the 8251 inhibits transmit his problem is there reverse, IE it jabbers and never listens. Allison > regards, Steve Thatcher > > -----Original Message----- >> From: "Robert J. Stevens" >> Sent: Dec 18, 2010 11:13 AM >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: RE: Need help with Project Northstar/Data I/O System-19/ADM, Terminals (dwight elvey) >> >> Message: 15 >> Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 06:46:57 -0800 >> From: dwight elveyRE: Need help with Project Northstar/Data I/O System-19/ADM Terminals (dwight elvey) >> Hi >> It is unlikely that there is a problem with the 2708s If the programmer said they >> were good, I'd expect them to be fine. >> The places I'd look are first the RS232 connection. The fact that the canon >> book works on one machine doesn't mean it will work on another. As well >> as the data lines, there are handshake wires that need to have the right >> levels. >> He said that he'd single stepped the code, what were the results of >> that? what did it do or not do right?? >> Dwight >> >> It just goes crazy as the Prom was not burnt correctly >> Bob >> >> Turns out that the Problem is that the Data I/O System-19 I am using doesn't want to load the Hex file as INTEL. It will only load a File if it is flagged as BINARY and that doesn't give a proper code Image. I am trying to get a fellow to see if his System-19 will load the file and burn the 2708 Properly then I can get mine Fixed I HOPE. >> I also have been Re-Erasing the EPROMs as I go along. >> Bob >> > From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Dec 20 17:43:37 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 18:43:37 -0500 Subject: Another "Commodore" PC ... with a twist In-Reply-To: <4D0FE587.4070200@snarc.net> References: <4D0FE3CC.5040204@snarc.net> <4D0FE512.60601@atarimuseum.com> <4D0FE587.4070200@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4D0FEA29.8030609@atarimuseum.com> The 4x4 unit was unlicensed, apparently they never got permission, nor paid royalties to DC studios on that particular product. Evan Koblentz wrote: > Unlicensed? Wasn't Mammoth the same company that made her DTV? > > > On 12/20/2010 06:21 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> Well, let's hope something can be worked out. DC Studio's up in >> Canada owns the rights to the C64 chip she did as I understand, and >> they haven't done much with it over years, last product I saw was an >> unlicensed use of it by Mammoth Studio's in a off-roader plug n play >> game, but nothing much else, so it would certainly be nice to see it >> used in something like the new C64 computer... >> >> >> Curt >> >> >> >> Evan Koblentz wrote: >>> This time they made it LOOK like a real Commodore: >>> http://www.commodoreusa.net/CUSA_C64.aspx. >>> >>> Neat, but unfortunately its only support for vintage operation is >>> emulator software. It needs a real C64 inside, a la Jeri E.'s >>> projects. >>> >> > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Dec 20 18:32:18 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 16:32:18 -0800 Subject: Sports! .. and with an on-topic association. In-Reply-To: References: , <201012202028.oBKKSIx8010563@billY.EZWIND.NET>, <4D0F6591.4054.104A0E2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1df0030841d1ea151612826d872a6041@cs.ubc.ca> While one can distinguish between sports and athletics and exercise, let's keep in mind Alan Turing's interest in running (e.g. http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Miscellaneous/Turing/ Running.html). I get lots of exercise through running and cycling, and have done so consistently for the past 30+ years (while I have in the distant past participated in competition and 'organised' events, they are not really my thing). So I'm of the mind that both body and brain cells work best when they get some exercise; and as Turing suggests, physical exercise can help keep the brain sane. Getting some exercise after sitting on one's ass staring at a monitor for hours on end, or hunched over a workbench of hardware, while working on a 'brain' problem - can be very beneficial to the brain and solving those problems. At the same time, I have no interest in professional, popular or mainstream sports. So while we're dissing the pointlessness of physical games, how about the pointlessness of computer games .. (or is that likely to start a flame war here)? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 20 18:38:44 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 16:38:44 -0800 Subject: Uncommon: Intel Paragon on iOffer Message-ID: <4D0F8694.26497.1859391@cclist.sydex.com> Something you don't see every day: http://www.ioffer.com/i/intel-paragon-super-computer-180057571 --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 20 18:46:56 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 16:46:56 -0800 Subject: Sports! .. and with an on-topic association. In-Reply-To: <1df0030841d1ea151612826d872a6041@cs.ubc.ca> References: , , <1df0030841d1ea151612826d872a6041@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4D0F8880.26608.18D135E@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Dec 2010 at 16:32, Brent Hilpert wrote: > So while we're dissing the pointlessness of physical games, how about > the pointlessness of computer games .. (or is that likely to start a > flame war here)? No, I think they serve a purpose. Where is the military going to get skilled drone pilots from, otherwise? --Chuck From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Dec 20 19:03:06 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 17:03:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Another "Commodore" PC ... with a twist In-Reply-To: <4D0FE3CC.5040204@snarc.net> Message-ID: <813470.46412.qm@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 12/20/10, Evan Koblentz wrote: > This time they made it LOOK like a > real Commodore: http://www.commodoreusa.net/CUSA_C64.aspx. > > Neat, but unfortunately its only support for vintage > operation is emulator software.? It needs a real C64 > inside, a la Jeri E.'s projects. Very cool - except for the fact that it's vaporware. If you look around on their site there are lots of other cool things that exist only in their imaginations. -Ian From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Dec 20 19:41:21 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 17:41:21 -0800 Subject: Sports! .. and with an on-topic association. In-Reply-To: <4D0F8880.26608.18D135E@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <1df0030841d1ea151612826d872a6041@cs.ubc.ca> <4D0F8880.26608.18D135E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <953fd29c64810500c6e85e450c6bbb67@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Dec 20, at 4:46 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 20 Dec 2010 at 16:32, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> So while we're dissing the pointlessness of physical games, how about >> the pointlessness of computer games .. (or is that likely to start a >> flame war here)? > > No, I think they serve a purpose. Where is the military going to get > skilled drone pilots from, otherwise? Yes, but one can say the same thing about football and foot soldiers. From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Dec 20 21:20:47 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 22:20:47 -0500 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing References: Message-ID: <49350FCFF61F43DDB93E411E9675136E@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 4:29 PM Subject: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing > > Perhps you could explain how human knowledge is advanced by palying > baseball (or any other similar sport). > > -tony Fixing and preventing sports related injuries. Pro athletes tend to get hurt and have the cash and/or insurance to get some great cutting edge treatment (and research) that eventually trickles down to everyone. If there is a need and money to be made somebody will figure out why something gets damaged, how to prevent it, and how to fix it so you can go back and break something else. I guess sports and war provide enough information about head injuries for engineers to design helmets worn by bike riders (for example) so they can get to work and be productive without smashing their brains if they fall off the bike. From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Dec 20 22:18:41 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 20:18:41 -0800 Subject: Sports! In-Reply-To: <4D0F6E12.3262.125D782@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4D0F6591.4054.104A0E2@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D0F6E12.3262.125D782@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 2:54 PM On 20 Dec 2010 at 14:42, John A. Dundas III wrote: >> We proudly boast we're "undefeated since 1993". [Actually haven't >> fielded a team since then.] But also, a season in 1944 when the team >> was not only undefeated, but unscored upon! >> Sadly, if you look at many of our computers... maybe a football team >> would help. > Reminds me of the old Second City routine "Football Comes to the > University of Chicago". I was still a grad student at UChicago when they brought back the Maroons. The team had been disbanded in 1939 after some losing seasons, and 40 years later it came back by alumni and student demand. It was funny. In the 1920s, "the Monsters of the Midway"[1] joined with the Wildcats of Northwestern University in inviting a group of public universities to join into a football conference, which was called "The Big Ten". In 1939, Michigan State was invited to replace Chicago in the Big 10; in 1979, Chicago asked Michigan State, one of the powerhouse teams of the day, to step aside for their return. The request was turned down. Second City is simply riffing on a real incident. [1] The Midway Plaisance was created as part of the grounds of the 1893 Columbian Exposition. The University of Chicago's campus borders the Midway (as it is called locally) on both sides of the boulevard for several blocks. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Dec 20 22:20:56 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 23:20:56 -0500 Subject: Bendix G-15 Diode Tester Message-ID: The Diode Tester unit for a Bendix G-15 very recently sold on Ebay. I would like to know who won it. Did anyone here? You can reply off list (I can be very discrete) - I have some questions to ask. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 20 22:30:27 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 20:30:27 -0800 Subject: Sports! In-Reply-To: References: , <4D0F6E12.3262.125D782@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4D0FBCE3.5093.259B5F6@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Dec 2010 at 20:18, Rich Alderson wrote: > Second City is simply riffing on a real incident. The Second City routine is circa 1960. So manybe not. > [1] The Midway Plaisance was created as part of the grounds of the > 1893 > Columbian Exposition. The University of Chicago's campus borders > the Midway (as it is called locally) on both sides of the > boulevard for several blocks. Did a couple of years at IIT (35th and S. State) back when the stockyards were still in operation. I can still smell the spring thaw... --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Dec 20 22:50:36 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 20:50:36 -0800 Subject: Need help with Project Northstar/Data I/O System-19/ADM, Terminals (dwight elvey) In-Reply-To: <4D0FE5FE.7020405@verizon.net> References: <9350536.1292705126304.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>, <4D0FE5FE.7020405@verizon.net> Message-ID: > On 12/18/2010 03:45 PM, melamy at earthlink.net wrote: ---snip--- > >> > >> Turns out that the Problem is that the Data I/O System-19 I am using doesn't want to load the Hex file as INTEL. It will only load a File if it is flagged as BINARY and that doesn't give a proper code Image. I am trying to get a fellow to see if his System-19 will load the file and burn the 2708 Properly then I can get mine Fixed I HOPE. > >> I also have been Re-Erasing the EPROMs as I go along. > >> Bob > >> > > > Hi What is the command sequence that you are using with the Data IO Sys-19 to get it to understand Intel Hex? Dwight From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Mon Dec 20 17:25:16 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 17:25:16 -0600 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <20101220142530.H75700@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101220142530.H75700@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4D0FE5DC.2080506@tx.rr.com> On 12/20/2010 4:26 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 20 Dec 2010, Jonas Otter wrote: >> Now now, Tony, you are being unfair. I don't know about those Americans >> who play that game where they run around in padded suits and helmets, >> wrestling each other to the ground (I think they call it football for >> some reason), . . . >> Brawn doesn't preclude brains. > > Unless you play without a helmet. > Recent news seems to me to suggest that helmets are insufficient protection. I know it's heretical, but I seriously suspect that US style football should be banned as being way too dangerous. (If I'm forced to wear a seat belt, why should they be allowed to do *that*? But I'm not bitter...) I was a lot like Tony all the way through grade school, high school and college. As long as you don't count ping-pong and an occasional game of volleyball. :-) I must confess that in the last 20 years or so I've developed quite an interest in baseball, even though I only played softball as a kid. I used to think baseball was a pretty safe sport. Compared to US football I still think it is relatively safe, but I've learned that it too has it's quite hazardous moments - just not every play like football. Later, Charlie C. From jws at jwsss.com Tue Dec 21 00:19:31 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 22:19:31 -0800 Subject: Uncommon: Intel Paragon on iOffer In-Reply-To: <4D0F8694.26497.1859391@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D0F8694.26497.1859391@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D1046F3.8000408@jwsss.com> Chuck I looked at the other auctions by this seller, and he is also selling node cards from the paragon, not a good sign to one who is thinking of buying it. I personally would almost never buy from such a seller, unless I had the unit for sale in stock, as it would seem this guy was parting up a lot I would need to run the thing eventually, or unless I just wanted it for parts. Jim On 12/20/2010 4:38 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Something you don't see every day: > > http://www.ioffer.com/i/intel-paragon-super-computer-180057571 > > --Chuck > > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Dec 21 04:29:39 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 11:29:39 +0100 (CET) Subject: Friden EC-130/132 boardsets In-Reply-To: References: <4D0BAB46.4020107@telus.net> from "John Robertson" at Dec 17, 10 10:26:14 am Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Dec 2010, Rick Bensene wrote: > Friden EC-132s with serial numbers 3902 and above were three-counter, > with earlier machines four-counter I've just checked our two machines (the third was from a friend), these are the serial numbers on the bottom front of the base (and also somewhere inside the machine): * 132-33797 * 132-4638-1910 > There were some wiring differences between the machines, which did limit > the compatibility of boardsets (e.g., not a good idea to put a > four-counter boardset in a calculator made with a three-counter > boardset, but there are specifics in the service bulletins that give a > matrix of compatibility between the machines based on the individual > board pairs. > > I need to scan these service bulletins and put them online on the museum > website, but haven't gotten to it yet. The Fridens are very interesting machines, I'm always impressed by the ingenuity of the designers of early electronic calculators. The Diehl Combitron series is another example, clearly bearing the hallmarks of Stanley Frankel. Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Dec 21 04:34:08 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 11:34:08 +0100 (CET) Subject: A Christmas Picture for the Commodore folks In-Reply-To: References: <622732.95995.qm@web113510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4D0C8373.7060703@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Dec 2010, Zane H. Healy wrote: > The problem is not that it is letterboxed, as it isn't. It is at a strange > aspect ratio. If you've filled in the missing areas with dark blueish > boarders the you have already letterboxed it. Isn't that just a matter of opinion? ;-) An image with that strange aspect ratio is always displayed letterboxed on my monitor, with or without filled borders... Christian From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Dec 21 08:58:27 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 14:58:27 +0000 Subject: AT&T 3B1 / 7300 / UNIX PC DMA Data LSI schematic In-Reply-To: References: <1292167589.3595.4.camel@ryoko> Message-ID: <4D10C093.5040703@philpem.me.uk> On 17/12/10 17:01, Steven Hirsch wrote: > There is nothing pertaining to the DMA Data LSI in any of the > documentation I have. Are you sure it was included in the technical > manual? I scanned everything I have here. Hmm. I wonder if they designed it specifically as an LSI, and didn't release the schematics... :( It's a non-issue really; I've figured out the DMA issue which was stopping the system from booting. Now I just need to implement the other hardware... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Dec 21 12:13:51 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 10:13:51 -0800 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <4D0FE5DC.2080506@tx.rr.com> References: <20101220142530.H75700@shell.lmi.net> <4D0FE5DC.2080506@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Charlie Carothers > Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 3:25 PM > To: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing > > On 12/20/2010 4:26 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Mon, 20 Dec 2010, Jonas Otter wrote: > >> Now now, Tony, you are being unfair. I don't know about those > Americans > >> who play that game where they run around in padded suits and > helmets, > >> wrestling each other to the ground (I think they call it football > for > >> some reason), . . . > >> Brawn doesn't preclude brains. > > > > Unless you play without a helmet. > > > Recent news seems to me to suggest that helmets are insufficient > protection. I know it's heretical, but I seriously suspect that US > style football should be banned as being way too dangerous. (If I'm > forced to wear a seat belt, why should they be allowed to do *that*? > But I'm not bitter...) > Funny you should bring that up. I ride motorcycles and I'm involved in motorcycle advocacy. Motorcycle helmet technology is crippled by two things: the litigious society in which we Americans live (there isn't a single helmet manufactured in the United States!) and the way the law is written. There is a federal law, FMVSS218, that is a *construction* standard: build a motorcycle helmet like this and this. It's not a *performance* standard (there is no testing involved), and implicitly allows for no progress - despite the fact there has been significant innovation in the design of (for example) football helmets. We motorcyclists are told that if we drop a helmet from waist height onto a floor, we should replace the helmet. Football helmets are used week after week, day after day (think about practice), impact after impact.... -- Ian From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 21 12:18:36 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 11:18:36 -0700 Subject: Columbus, OH Message-ID: Anyone in Columbus, OH that could help me with a "pickup only" item on ebay? Please email me off-list. Thanks! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dbetz at xlisper.com Tue Dec 21 12:21:08 2010 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 13:21:08 -0500 Subject: Swap a Radio Shack Pocket Computer for a TI-85 calculator manual? Message-ID: <9DDE4F47-016E-4DBD-B3A0-1EEDDD125888@xlisper.com> Anyone interested in this swap? I just recently got a TI-85 calculator thinking that I had a manual for it already. It seems that somewhere along the line I decided that I didn't really need the manual anymore so I got rid of it. So, I now have a calculator with no manual. Anyone have an extra TI-85 manual they'd like to trade for a Radio Shack Pocket Computer with manual? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 21 13:23:46 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 19:23:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Sports! .. and with an on-topic association. In-Reply-To: <1df0030841d1ea151612826d872a6041@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Dec 20, 10 04:32:18 pm Message-ID: > > While one can distinguish between sports and athletics and exercise, > let's keep in mind Alan Turing's interest in running (e.g. > http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Miscellaneous/Turing/ > Running.html). Yes, he is the exception, a great mind who did do exercise... > > I get lots of exercise through running and cycling, and have done so I am reminded of Winston Churchill's statement : 'I get all the exercise I need acting as a pall bearer for my friends who run and do exercise' :-) > consistently for the past 30+ years (while I have in the distant past > participated in competition and 'organised' events, they are not really > my thing). So I'm of the mind that both body and brain cells work best > when they get some exercise; and as Turing suggests, physical exercise I am sure this is a personal thing becuase I am of the opposite opinion. I am the sort of person who can run 100m in 10 minutes, and who thinks the best thing to do with a bicycle is to multiply it by 5*10^-7 [1]. A quick look at the picture of me on the recent HPCC conference page (linked from http://www.hpcc.org/ [2]) will, I think indicate that I am not the wort of person to go running... But if it works for tyou, I am not going to comment further... [1] Do I really have to explain that on _this_ list? [2] Actually on-topic. The picture shows me surrounded by bits of an HP9836CU computer. It's not too clear from the photo, but I am holding the brightness control assmebly, at the time I was explainign how I'd dosmantled the pot to de-seize and then made a brass collar to fit the knob so it souldn't slip again (and yes, I did mill a flat on the spindle). > can help keep the brain sane. Getting some exercise after sitting on > one's ass staring at a monitor for hours on end, or hunched over a > workbench of hardware, while working on a 'brain' problem - can be very > beneficial to the brain and solving those problems. I find soloving some other problem works for me. If I am stuck on sorting out an electrronic fault, I will go and do some metal turning to fix another part of the machine (or another machine), or something like that. > So while we're dissing the pointlessness of physical games, how about > the pointlessness of computer games .. (or is that likely to start a > flame war here)? Well, FWIW... I have no interest at all in arcade/action games, what we used to call 'blast the b*st*rds' I playued Doom once on a friend's machine about 15 years ago, I didn't enjoy it much. I do like some text adventures, becuase I like solving puzzles (just about all puzzles). But I've not played one for years. Probably still a waste of time, though. But then isn't fixing classic computers really a waste of time? Or for that matter isn't that lmost the defintion of a hobby? No, the only computer 'game' I enjoy is called 'programming' :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 21 13:27:17 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 19:27:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <49350FCFF61F43DDB93E411E9675136E@dell8300> from "Teo Zenios" at Dec 20, 10 10:20:47 pm Message-ID: > > > > Perhps you could explain how human knowledge is advanced by palying > > baseball (or any other similar sport). > > > > -tony > > Fixing and preventing sports related injuries. Pro athletes tend to get hurt Ah, so sports lead to cures for injuries that you wouldn't get if you didn't take part in sports. I can think of a much simpler way to avoid such injuries, which is, of course, the method I use. > and have the cash and/or insurance to get some great cutting edge treatment > (and research) that eventually trickles down to everyone. If there is a need > and money to be made somebody will figure out why something gets damaged, > how to prevent it, and how to fix it so you can go back and break something > else. I guess sports and war provide enough information about head injuries > for engineers to design helmets worn by bike riders (for example) so they > can get to work and be productive without smashing their brains if they fall > off the bike. On the other hand, a risk of injoury for cyclists might encourage the irresposible ones to ride more sensibly and not be a risk to pedestrians like me.... -tony From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Dec 21 14:16:53 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 15:16:53 -0500 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 2:27 PM Subject: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing >> > >> > Perhps you could explain how human knowledge is advanced by palying >> > baseball (or any other similar sport). >> > >> > -tony >> >> Fixing and preventing sports related injuries. Pro athletes tend to get >> hurt > > Ah, so sports lead to cures for injuries that you wouldn't get if you > didn't take part in sports. I can think of a much simpler way to avoid > such injuries, which is, of course, the method I use. > Yea like nobody ever pulled a muscle, broke a leg, dislocated a shoulder, got a concussion outside of sports. People have been known to get major injuries just getting out of the bathtub (waiting on your reply about how you don't wash either). From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Dec 21 15:45:29 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 15:45:29 -0600 Subject: Sports! .. and with an on-topic association. In-Reply-To: References: <1df0030841d1ea151612826d872a6041@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <201012212145.oBLLjnnx065688@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 01:23 PM 12/21/2010, Tony Duell wrote: >A quick look at the picture of me on the recent HPCC conference page >(linked from http://www.hpcc.org/ [2]) will, I think indicate that I am >not the wort of person to go running... Hmm. Your shirt is untucked in some places, tucked in others. - John From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 21 16:18:02 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 14:18:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <4D0FE5DC.2080506@tx.rr.com> References: <20101220142530.H75700@shell.lmi.net> <4D0FE5DC.2080506@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20101221141444.N15785@shell.lmi.net> > >> Brawn doesn't preclude brains. > > Unless you play without a helmet. On Mon, 20 Dec 2010, Charlie Carothers wrote: > Recent news seems to me to suggest that helmets are insufficient > protection. I know it's heretical, but I seriously suspect that US > style football should be banned as being way too dangerous. Time to switch to Rugby? I suspect that much of the public WANTS to watch violence that is beyond what is expected in normal daily life. From blkline at attglobal.net Tue Dec 21 16:38:53 2010 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 17:38:53 -0500 Subject: Sports! .. and with an on-topic association. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D112C7D.1090100@attglobal.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 12/21/2010 02:23 PM, Tony Duell wrote: [snip[ > A quick look at the picture of me on the recent HPCC conference page > (linked from http://www.hpcc.org/ [2]) will, I think indicate that I am > not the wort of person to go running... Okay, the caption of the second picture is: "Tony Duell described the HP9836CU Desktop Computer; he took it apart, displayed circuit diagrams (on the wall in the background) and showed and described each component part." Looking at that pile of parts begs the question: Why doesn't the caption include the phrase "and put it back together again?" Just wondering... Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFNESx9CFu3bIiwtTARAhHOAJ4hvsJQRADe69MD+nCWSvF1L8SzEwCfSk3/ zsRb2ItKgAFJANFf0bxrQ3A= =y+Fv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Dec 21 18:07:44 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 19:07:44 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/45 power cords Message-ID: This past Saturday at the Retro Computing Society's mill space we took a good hard look at a PDP-11/45, with hopes to get it running. It is in pretty good shape, and has been upgraded quite a few times over its career running some chem lab equipment. We did, however, find that pretty much every line power cable in the system had started to decay (did DEC buy a bad batch of cords?). They are covered in extremely sticky goo, and every solvent we threw at it would not clean the cords up. I think the cords need to just be replaced., as clearly they have started something that can not be good. So...RCS is looking for official DEC 120 VAC 14-3 power cords with the early/mid 70s type molded-in power connectors, in nice condition, of course. Do you have some DECjunk with these power cords? We are interested (and will make it worth your while) if you can disconnect them - decently long lengths would be nice. Let me know of list. Thanks! -- Will From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Dec 21 19:08:23 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 20:08:23 -0500 Subject: more or less [OT]: A new standard for lists? In-Reply-To: References: <4D0A93C0.2030303@gmail.com> <4D0A9825.20406@bitsavers.org> <4D0A339D.28132.1CAC87C@cclist.sydex.com> <10CCE3CB301D40C7A0A0EF30E41AF9F4@portajara> Message-ID: <4D114F87.2070809@compsys.to> >Richard wrote: >In article William Donzelli writes: > >>>Hmm. Let me think. Isn't this called Usenet? >>> >>> >>Didn't Usenet die back in the late 1990s? >> >Its still useful for programming discussions, but for all the >chit-chat type stuff its pretty much been replaced by the balkanized >world of inferior web forums. The distributed control nature of >usenet also lent itself to excessive abuse by spammers and the usenet >community never really came up with a useful way of dealing with that. >Many people retreated to mailing lists as a result of the spam >problem. > While novice Usenet users will still be caught when they provide their Return Address in the clear, most experienced Usenet users post with their Return Address in a manner which confuses only the least capable e-mail harvester programs. Also, one of the Usenet sites which I check used to have a Moderator e-mail address available which would obliterate the Return Address by changing it to . After crayne became unavailable, that stopped for a short time, but is now replaced by something a bit more complicated. So the problem of spammers really is not that bad for experienced Usenet users at this point. By the way, other than the current problem of subscribing to cctalk (has it been fixed?), what prevents an old subscriber from harvesting our e-mail addresses? The fact that I send my Return Address in the clear seems to suggest that either there are too few members of this list to make a difference or that Jay has been able to prevent spammers from obtaining our e-mail addresses. I suspect the former since I seem to remember seeing some of my posts to cctalk on google. By the way, just how many members of cctalk are there at this point? I also see my posts to Usenet on google, but the difficulty of responding and the format used makes it useless for me to participate. Which is why I add more than "nospam" to my e-mail address when sending a post to Usenet. I personally monitor 5 Usenet sites (only one is an alt.* site) via a free Usenet server which accepts short TEXT-ONLY posts. While the traffic is not as high as it used to be, there is still limited help available. Jerome Fine From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Dec 21 20:02:20 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 21:02:20 -0500 Subject: more or less [OT]: A new standard for lists? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 9:48 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> Didn't Usenet die back in the late 1990s? > > Every September. Wait, is September 1993 over yet? No. Today is Sep 6321. -ethan From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Tue Dec 21 22:16:16 2010 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 23:16:16 -0500 Subject: Uncommon: Intel Paragon on iOffer Message-ID: <20101222041616.5F5561E0C07@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> n 12/20/2010 4:38 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Something you don't see every day: > > http://www.ioffer.com/i/intel-paragon-super-computer-180057571 > > --Chuck The Paragon (and Delta before it - I was much more familiar with the Delta) represented the pinnacle in ultra-GFlop multiprocessing of the early 90's especially for "embarassingly parallelizable" code. If the compiler could make your code run and your problem fit into the memory space of a node, wow, the Delta was astonishingly kick-ass compared to anything else out there at the time. That said, it does not strike me as an especially "something to be run at home" machine. Those who want to do this at home are already doing BOINC with machines 2 decades newer or they have their own Beowulf cluster. This is the fickle world of parallel supercomputing. I think CHM has/had a nice Paragon on display and I recall seeing the cabinets and prominent nameplate of the Touchstone Delta. Tim. From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Tue Dec 21 23:26:57 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 23:26:57 -0600 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <20101221141444.N15785@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101220142530.H75700@shell.lmi.net> <4D0FE5DC.2080506@tx.rr.com> <20101221141444.N15785@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4D118C21.4070107@tx.rr.com> On 12/21/2010 4:18 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> Brawn doesn't preclude brains. >>> Unless you play without a helmet. > > On Mon, 20 Dec 2010, Charlie Carothers wrote: >> Recent news seems to me to suggest that helmets are insufficient >> protection. I know it's heretical, but I seriously suspect that US >> style football should be banned as being way too dangerous. > > Time to switch to Rugby? > If Andy Capp was typical, wouldn't that be worse? :-) Charlie C. > > I suspect that much of the public WANTS to watch violence that is beyond > what is expected in normal daily life. > > > > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Dec 22 01:38:13 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 08:38:13 +0100 Subject: Uncommon: Intel Paragon on iOffer In-Reply-To: <20101222041616.5F5561E0C07@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20101222041616.5F5561E0C07@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20101222073812.GA11492@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 11:16:16PM -0500, Tim Shoppa wrote: > That said, it does not strike me as an especially "something to be > run at home" machine. Those who want to do this at home are already doing > BOINC with machines 2 decades newer or they have their own Beowulf cluster. > This is the fickle world of parallel supercomputing. I think you are on the wrong list Tim :D Speed isn't really the reason. Cheers - Pontus From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Dec 22 03:43:17 2010 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 22:43:17 +1300 Subject: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? References: <4D0387B0.8080902@arachelian.com> Message-ID: Hi, Just an update on my Lisa 2, i.e. the first machine I posted about. This is the one I thought had the drive issue, but in fact simply needed a DD disk in the slot rather than my HD one. Anyway, today I managed to make two Macwork disks from Lisa images on the web. My web machine is a PC so it involved using software called Transmac and a Mac Classic 2 with a 800k drive attached which I could use to write the 400K images. Anyway, the good news is the Lisa booted just fine! However, the bad news is (as I suspected) all THREE of my Lisa keyboards are non-functional. Well, not quite. One has the '4' key working on the keypad, the other has the '/' key working. But that's it. I know there is a bit of info on the Web as to how these might be repaired so it's off to have a look!.... After Xmas, I'll tackle to Lisa 2/10 again. Terry From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Dec 22 04:07:15 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 10:07:15 +0000 Subject: Uncommon: Intel Paragon on iOffer In-Reply-To: <20101222073812.GA11492@Update.UU.SE> References: <20101222041616.5F5561E0C07@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <20101222073812.GA11492@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4D11CDD3.4080508@philpem.me.uk> On 22/12/10 07:38, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > I think you are on the wrong list Tim :D Speed isn't really the reason. "Pray, Sir Edmund, why did you climb the mountain?" "Because it was there." -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Dec 22 04:28:52 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 10:28:52 +0000 Subject: Uncommon: Intel Paragon on iOffer In-Reply-To: <4D11CDD3.4080508@philpem.me.uk> References: <20101222041616.5F5561E0C07@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <20101222073812.GA11492@Update.UU.SE> <4D11CDD3.4080508@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D11D2E4.5030507@philpem.me.uk> On 22/12/10 10:07, Philip Pemberton wrote: > "Pray, Sir Edmund, why did you climb the mountain?" > "Because it was there." One of these days I'll learn to run a quick Google search before quoting something... it's actually a George Mallory quote: Interviewer: "Why do you want to climb Mount Everest?" Mallory: "Because it's there" -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Dec 22 05:46:47 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 09:46:47 -0200 Subject: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? References: <4D0387B0.8080902@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <97D88E62585D4D6D845A0BFEC76D5F15@portajara> > Well, not quite. One has the '4' key working on the keypad, the other has > the '/' key working. But that's it. Terry, if ONE of the keys is working, there must be a stuck key or a bad contact in the connector betweek the controller board of the keyboard (inside it, of course) and whatever brings the switch contacts to it (probably a membrane). I'm sure you'll be very lucky on that :) From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Wed Dec 22 06:44:29 2010 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 07:44:29 -0500 Subject: Uncommon: Intel Paragon on iOffer Message-ID: <20101222124429.5197D1E0C06@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Pontus wrote: > On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 11:16:16PM -0500, Tim Shoppa wrote: >> That said, it does not strike me as an especially "something to be >> run at home" machine. Those who want to do this at home are already doing >> BOINC with machines 2 decades newer or they have their own Beowulf cluster. >> This is the fickle world of parallel supercomputing. > I think you are on the wrong list Tim :D Speed isn't really the reason. I was a user of both the Delta and a Paragon when they were new. Speed really was the reason! There was very little cute or affecting about the machines. The OS and Compilers sucked. (OK, not a lot worse than the suckiness of some others at the time). Parallelizing code that wasn't easily parallelized, a lot of folks wasted time with that. But for the problems in the sweet spot, wow, speed was ENTIRELY the reason. Knowing that I was using one of the fastest "machines" on earth (although really a farm of many machines) was in itself exhilirating. Bringing back that exhiliration by running the same hardware that was new 20 years ago, but today? It's just not the same. Again, the fickle world of parallel supercomputing. These are machines that are fine for displaying in museums, they were truly the pinnacle of parallel supercomputing for a couple years. I'm very happy that CHM has examples of each. But not at home :-). Tim. From trebor77 at execpc.com Wed Dec 22 08:25:46 2010 From: trebor77 at execpc.com (Robert J. Stevens) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 08:25:46 -0600 Subject: Need help with Project Northstar/Data I/O System-19/ADM Terminals (dwight elvey) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D120A6A.1070209@execpc.com> > Message: 10 Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 20:50:36 -0800 > From: dwight elvey > Subject: RE: Need help with Project Northstar/Data I/O System-19/ADM, > Terminals (dwight elvey) >>>> Turns out that the Problem is that the Data I/O System-19 I am using doesn't want to load the Hex file as INTEL. It will only load a File if it is flagged as BINARY and that doesn't give a proper code Image. I am trying to get a fellow to see if his System-19 will load the file and burn the 2708 Properly then I can get mine Fixed I HOPE. >>>> I also have been Re-Erasing the EPROMs as I go along. >>>> Bob > Hi > What is the command sequence that you are using with the Data IO Sys-19 > to get it to understand Intel Hex? > Dwight Dwight; I have been using a program called PL [Version 26 & 34] that I downloaded from Magnetics & Memories of Philadelphia. It is driven by a Configuration file that can be Setup for the Device Type and File type and Baud Rate, etc. I am in contact with Al Marin of M & M and he is looking in on the Problem, My Latest attempt was to EDIT out a Intel Hex file to make it PURE Binary but that doesn't want to load properly either. I burnt a Prom with a few additional lines of Code that I had to shrink as it didn't match the input file when I load RAM from the device and created a File from it. But alas even that did not perform as it should on the N*. I could not see the OUT [6, 2, 3] instructions being executed the way the do with the Original 2708. If I go back to the 2708 that Andrew L Burnt for me the Code performs in accordance with the Listing. Bob From lproven at gmail.com Wed Dec 22 08:43:32 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 14:43:32 +0000 Subject: Another "Commodore" PC ... with a twist In-Reply-To: <4D0FE3CC.5040204@snarc.net> References: <4D0FE3CC.5040204@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 11:16 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > This time they made it LOOK like a real Commodore: > http://www.commodoreusa.net/CUSA_C64.aspx. > > Neat, but unfortunately its only support for vintage operation is emulator > software. ?It needs a real C64 inside, a la Jeri E.'s projects. Now /that/ one I like. Enough to buy one if I had the money spare, and the thing was actually, y'know, /real/. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Dec 22 08:51:50 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 12:51:50 -0200 Subject: Another "Commodore" PC ... with a twist References: <4D0FE3CC.5040204@snarc.net> Message-ID: <1A30079AC02D46D89A4CF39D5B5DF4C8@portajara> >Now /that/ one I like. Enough to buy one if I had the money spare, and >the thing was actually, y'know, /real/. Why not? Get a mini-mini ITX board, a very small power supply and build it inside an old C64 shell. The keyboard interfacing is simple enough. As soon as I get a broken C64 here I'll do that :D From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Dec 22 09:11:45 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 07:11:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Another "Commodore" PC ... with a twist In-Reply-To: <1A30079AC02D46D89A4CF39D5B5DF4C8@portajara> References: <4D0FE3CC.5040204@snarc.net> <1A30079AC02D46D89A4CF39D5B5DF4C8@portajara> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Dec 2010, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Now /that/ one I like. Enough to buy one if I had the money spare, and >> the thing was actually, y'know, /real/. > > Why not? > > Get a mini-mini ITX board, a very small power supply and build it inside > an old C64 shell. The keyboard interfacing is simple enough. As soon as I get > a broken C64 here I'll do that :D > I've actually seen this done with a 1541 drive chassis. The builder even installed a slot-loading DVD drive aligned with the stock 5-1/4" floppy opening. Here's a similar project, but not done to the same standard as the one I recall: http://www.mini-itx.com/projects/c1541/ g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 22 10:38:59 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 08:38:59 -0800 Subject: Need help with Project Northstar/Data I/O System-19/ADM Terminals (dwight elvey) In-Reply-To: <4D120A6A.1070209@execpc.com> References: , <4D120A6A.1070209@execpc.com> Message-ID: <4D11B923.11544.39934@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Dec 2010 at 8:25, Robert J. Stevens wrote: > My Latest attempt was to EDIT out a Intel Hex file to make it PURE > Binary but that doesn't want to load properly either. I burnt a Prom > with a few additional lines of Code that I had to shrink as it didn't > match the input file when I load RAM from the device and created a File > from it. But alas even that did not perform as it should on the N*. I > could not see the OUT [6, 2, 3] instructions being executed the way the > do with the Original 2708. If I go back to the 2708 that Andrew L Burnt > for me the Code performs in accordance with the Listing. Won't good old MS-DOS DEBUG load an Intel .HEX file? Once it's loaded, it's a very small deal to write it out as a pure binary file. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 22 10:44:43 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 08:44:43 -0800 Subject: Uncommon: Intel Paragon on iOffer In-Reply-To: <20101222124429.5197D1E0C06@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20101222124429.5197D1E0C06@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4D11BA7B.29297.8DC20@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Dec 2010 at 7:44, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Bringing back that exhiliration by running the same hardware that was > new 20 years ago, but today? It's just not the same. Again, the fickle > world of parallel supercomputing. > > These are machines that are fine for displaying in museums, they were > truly the pinnacle of parallel supercomputing for a couple years. I'm > very happy that CHM has examples of each. But not at home :-). I pointed it out because (a) the Intel i860 was yet another stumble by Intel to get away from the 8008 architecture (the 432 being only a slightly earlier one--and one in a diametrically opposite direction) and the application (cluster) was novel. As far as speed, well, I have no doubt that a cluster of today's game consoles can outperform it. But that's the story of computing. As to the applicability as a home machine, I think we've seen demonstrations on this list of the futility of that label! --Chuck From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Dec 22 11:56:04 2010 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 06:56:04 +1300 Subject: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? References: <4D0387B0.8080902@arachelian.com> <97D88E62585D4D6D845A0BFEC76D5F15@portajara> Message-ID: <262DE34E5261428BAC8C356D1E96A5B8@massey.ac.nz> Alex, so you really think this might be the cause? The web-info I've read on the Lisa suggests it's usually the pads that wear out causing non-responsive keys and that these should be replaced. However what's odd is... 1. All the keys feel very firm, with no sign of the "mushiness" mentioned in some of the info. 2. ALL the keys expect for one (in two keyboards) are not working AT ALL no matter how hard you press. Yet the '4' in one and the '/' in another are working fine and with no pressure needed at all? In the third keyboard NONE are working. It would be great if the problem wasn't the pads, but something more easy to fix. It's hard to believe the pads could deteriorate 100% on all keys bar one. And on that one they are fine? Anyone on the list had experience with Lisa keyboards and could comment? I'll be opening them up in the next day or so so I guess I'll soon see. Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alexandre Souza - Listas" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 12:46 AM Subject: Re: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? >> Well, not quite. One has the '4' key working on the keypad, the other >> has the '/' key working. But that's it. > > Terry, if ONE of the keys is working, there must be a stuck key or a > bad contact in the connector betweek the controller board of the keyboard > (inside it, of course) and whatever brings the switch contacts to it > (probably a membrane). I'm sure you'll be very lucky on that :) > > From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Dec 22 12:15:43 2010 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 13:15:43 -0500 Subject: Uncommon: Intel Paragon on iOffer Message-ID: Chuck writes: > I pointed it out because (a) the Intel i860 was yet another stumble > by Intel to get away from the 8008 architecture (the 432 being only a > slightly earlier one--and one in a diametrically opposite direction) > and the application (cluster) was novel. Personally I always thought the i860 was far from a stumble, because in fact it was the highest MFlops/dollar and MFlops/watt for a considerable length of time and used in a number of high-horsepower applications in the real world. Farms/clusters weren't awful novel, scientists had been assembling their own for a decade before. Intel seeing that it could commercialize a massively parallel computer, yes in some people's eyes that would make it legit (when somehow it wasn't legit whenever anyone did it in the decades before...?) Maybe by some measures i860 was a stumble because it didn't replace x86 but by those measures, everything is a failure. Hardly seems like a good definition of success. Aka "Where Are We Going? Planet Ten! When Are we Going? Real Soon!" Tim. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Dec 22 12:30:33 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 16:30:33 -0200 Subject: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? References: <4D0387B0.8080902@arachelian.com><97D88E62585D4D6D845A0BFEC76D5F15@portajara> <262DE34E5261428BAC8C356D1E96A5B8@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: > Alex, so you really think this might be the cause? The web-info I've read Terry, I don't know much about lisa keyboards, but wait...there is google! :oD Well, seems the lisa keyboard is an entire PCB...So what I said doesn't apply...sorry :( From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Dec 22 13:01:47 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 14:01:47 -0500 Subject: Uncommon: Intel Paragon on iOffer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Personally I always thought the i860 was far from a stumble, because in > fact it was the highest MFlops/dollar and MFlops/watt for a considerable > length of time and used in a number of high-horsepower applications > in the real world. And Intel sure sold quite a few i860s. I would bet that most i860s ended up as coprocessor cards in PeeCees, where they did one task and did not run into the dreaded pipeline flush context switch problem. -- Will From david at classiccomputing.com Wed Dec 22 13:07:03 2010 From: david at classiccomputing.com (David Greelish) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 14:07:03 -0500 Subject: Computer History Entertainment Message-ID: <5A040639-FF43-481E-915A-6EEED6407DB3@classiccomputing.com> Hi everyone, If you have never checked out any of the shows that I produce, please consider checking one or more out over the holidays. I just posted the new Retro Computing Roundtable podcast today. Find it here - http://bit.ly/iazQ2S with links to the others at the top of the page. There is also - "Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer" audiobook podcast & the Classic Computing Show video podcast. I'm like the Leo Laporte of computer history podcasts! Well, OK, so I'm not as professional, and I don't have the years of radio and television experience, nor the equipment, or the money . . . OK, OK, I stink compared to Leo, I'm nothing like him! ; ) They're good shows. Have a great holiday season. Best, David Greelish, Computer Historian Classic Computing The Home of Computer History Nostalgia http://www.classiccomputing.com Classic Computing Blog Classic Computing Show video podcast "Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer" audiobook podcast Retro Computing Roundtable podcast Historical Computer Society Classic Computing Expo 1.0 - planning for sometime late 2011! From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 22 13:12:00 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 11:12:00 -0800 Subject: Uncommon: Intel Paragon on iOffer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D11DD00.28972.60B553@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Dec 2010 at 13:15, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > Personally I always thought the i860 was far from a stumble, because > in fact it was the highest MFlops/dollar and MFlops/watt for a > considerable length of time and used in a number of high-horsepower > applications in the real world. Don't get me wrong--I thought the i860 was remarkable from an architectural standpoint and familiar stomping ground for an old supercomputer guy. But Intel just had no idea of how to market it. Himself BillG even gave it some happy words (but then, what products of Intel didn't he give happy words to?). > Farms/clusters weren't awful novel, scientists had been assembling > their own for a decade before. Intel seeing that it could > commercialize a massively parallel computer, yes in some people's eyes > that would make it legit (when somehow it wasn't legit whenever anyone > did it in the decades before...?) I can't remember who I first heard it from (Neil Lincoln or Nix Frazier, perhaps) to the effect that massively parallel computing was like trying to take nine women and get a baby in one month. I view the Paragon as being in the same category as the Sequent boxes of about the same timeframe. Nice for a collector to own, and not requiring its own HVAC or chilled-water supply and still within the range of residential electrical service capabilities. --Chuck From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Dec 22 14:00:01 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 15:00:01 -0500 Subject: Sports! .. and with an on-topic association. References: Message-ID: <27E5CF653F234C55B54CCDA5B0E6A4F2@vl420mt> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 15:16:53 -0500 From: "Teo Zenios" Subject: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 2:27 PM Subject: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing >> > >> > Perhps you could explain how human knowledge is advanced by palying >> > baseball (or any other similar sport). >> > >> > -tony >> >> Fixing and preventing sports related injuries. Pro athletes tend to get >> hurt > > Ah, so sports lead to cures for injuries that you wouldn't get if you > didn't take part in sports. I can think of a much simpler way to avoid > such injuries, which is, of course, the method I use. > Yea like nobody ever pulled a muscle, broke a leg, dislocated a shoulder, got a concussion outside of sports. People have been known to get major injuries just getting out of the bathtub (waiting on your reply about how you don't wash either). +++++++++++++ REPLY: +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ?? I think perhaps your irony/sarcasm detector is malfunctioning... m From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Dec 22 13:59:16 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 14:59:16 -0500 Subject: Sports! .. and with an on-topic association. References: Message-ID: <3C281D158D704F748795926BF36B8A06@vl420mt> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 15:45:29 -0600 From: John Foust Subject: Re: Sports! .. and with an on-topic association. At 01:23 PM 12/21/2010, Tony Duell wrote: >A quick look at the picture of me on the recent HPCC conference page >(linked from http://www.hpcc.org/ [2]) will, I think indicate that I am >not the wort of person to go running... Hmm. Your shirt is untucked in some places, tucked in others. - John ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Surely a sign of true genius! But he needs a pocket protector; anybody have a spare they could send him? mike From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 22 13:05:00 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 19:05:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: from "Teo Zenios" at Dec 21, 10 03:16:53 pm Message-ID: > >> > Perhps you could explain how human knowledge is advanced by palying > >> > baseball (or any other similar sport). > >> > > >> > -tony > >> > >> Fixing and preventing sports related injuries. Pro athletes tend to get > >> hurt > > > > Ah, so sports lead to cures for injuries that you wouldn't get if you > > didn't take part in sports. I can think of a much simpler way to avoid > > such injuries, which is, of course, the method I use. > > > > Yea like nobody ever pulled a muscle, broke a leg, dislocated a shoulder, > got a concussion outside of sports. People have been known to get major By that argument you should encourage people to go around stabbing each other so that bnetter treatmets for such wounds can be developed. After all, you might get such an injury from a cutting tool one day. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 22 13:06:04 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 19:06:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Sports! .. and with an on-topic association. In-Reply-To: <201012212145.oBLLjnnx065688@billY.EZWIND.NET> from "John Foust" at Dec 21, 10 03:45:29 pm Message-ID: > Hmm. Your shirt is untucked in some places, tucked in others. What the heck has that go to do with me going running? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 22 13:37:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 19:37:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Sports! .. and with an on-topic association. In-Reply-To: <4D112C7D.1090100@attglobal.net> from "Barry L. Kline" at Dec 21, 10 05:38:53 pm Message-ID: > > A quick look at the picture of me on the recent HPCC conference page > > (linked from http://www.hpcc.org/ [2]) will, I think indicate that I am > > not the wort of person to go running... > > Okay, the caption of the second picture is: "Tony Duell described the > HP9836CU Desktop Computer; he took it apart, displayed circuit diagrams > (on the wall in the background) and showed and described each component > part." > > Looking at that pile of parts begs the question: Why doesn't the > caption include the phrase "and put it back together again?" Becasue I didn't. Not as part of the talk anyway... However, for those who are now worrying about the fate of a fairly interesting classic computer, don't!. The photos on the web site are in chronological oprder, and in the photos of Hugh Steers' talk you can see an HP9836C (you can't tell it's a CU, but you can see the second mains lead to the monitor, so it must be the colour monitor version). Since this was taken after my talk you have to conclude that either somebody else brought suich a machine to the meeting or that I did, in fact, put it togther again. I will explain This has become something of a tradition at HPPC conferences. I take along a somewhat off-topic machine (an HP desktop calculator or computer) which most of the members will not have seen and then demosntrate it, take it apart, and describe some aspects of the design. I always arrange for my talk to be given jsut before a tea/coffee break. After the talk, members of the audience cna come and look at the bits of the machine, talk to me, take photographs [1], etc. And during that time I put it all back toghether and test it again. [1] I don;t mind people taking pictures of me or the machines using any equipment with the exception of flashpowder (or flashbuttons). I don;t want everytthing covered in MgO :-) Actually, there was one minor differenece in the 9836 talk. Becuase it has a stange monitor interface (22kHz horizontal scan rate I think, and current, not voltage, drive for the RGB signals), it couldn't be easily linked to a video projector and thus I didn't consider it possible to demonstrate it before the audience. Instead, I had it running over the lunchbreak (I had a hard disk with HP BASIC 5.1 on it with me...) and let people program it or try out some of the demonstration programs. There are a few thigns that might not be obviosu fro mthe photos. In the first picture, there are 2 objects on the table othe than the machine and a roll of tools. The diecast box is a home-made tester for the PSU board in the 9836. The PSU consistes of an unregualted 30V (or so) PSU mounted in the case with the output wirted to an edge connector and a regulator PCB that plugs into this connector and also into the motherboard. The test box takes the PSU regualtor PCB (in the 2 edge connectors on top), takes in 30V or so from my bench supply, and provides dummy load resistors, monitoring lamps, and test socksts for the 3 output rails. There's a significant amount of logic on the motherboard, including a progammed microcontroller for the keyboard, so I don't want to risk that if I suyspect there may be PSU problems. The little circuit board in the first photo is a similar device for testing the SMPSU in the colour monitor. It plugs into the backplane connector of the monitor PSU, you connect the PSU to the mains and apply 12V to the cable comming fro mthe test board. The 12V supply operates the mains relays in the SMPUS, it should then come to life. And on the test board are load resisotrs, monitor LEDs and testpoints for the monitor PSU outputs. In the second picture (the one your commenting on), you can see the test box again. The binder in front of it is just the schematic for the 9826, 9836A and 9836C machines (these 2 machines have a lot in common). The long probe-thing on top of the toolkit is a Heathkit EHT meter, which I use to check and diskcharge the CRT anode connector (yes, there is a bleeder resisotr, but 25kV is unpleasnat and I'd rather be safe than sorry). Because as you can see from the far left of the picture, I did remove the CRT from the monitor. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 22 13:41:51 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 19:41:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP-11/45 power cords In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Dec 21, 10 07:07:44 pm Message-ID: > So...RCS is looking for official DEC 120 VAC 14-3 power cords with the > early/mid 70s type molded-in power connectors, in nice condition, of > course. Do you have some DECjunk with these power cords? We are > interested (and will make it worth your while) if you can disconnect > them - decently long lengths would be nice. You would have to get them from 120V machines. Over here (and I asusume in other countries with 230V or so mains), DEC used 234V plugs with 'horizontal' live and neutral pins (you know what I mean ;-)). And on all the DEC machines of that sort of vintage I've worked on, the 234V plugs are rewirable (not moulded) Hubble ones. If ytou were over here, you'd just replace the cable, not the plug as well... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 22 14:57:25 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 20:57:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? In-Reply-To: from "terry stewart" at Dec 22, 10 10:43:17 pm Message-ID: > > Hi, > > Just an update on my Lisa 2, i.e. the first machine I posted about. This is > the one I thought had the drive issue, but in fact simply needed a DD disk > in the slot rather than my HD one. > > Anyway, today I managed to make two Macwork disks from Lisa images on the > web. My web machine is a PC so it involved using software called Transmac > and a Mac Classic 2 with a 800k drive attached which I could use to write > the 400K images. > > Anyway, the good news is the Lisa booted just fine! However, the bad news That is good news! > is (as I suspected) all THREE of my Lisa keyboards are non-functional. > Well, not quite. One has the '4' key working on the keypad, the other has > the '/' key working. But that's it. Well, that's no so bad either. The fact that one key works would seem to indicate that the keypbard microcontroller (I am guessing it's a COP400 series Apple seemed to like them at this time) is working. And the rest of the keyboard electronics is probably OK > > I know there is a bit of info on the Web as to how these might be repaired > so it's off to have a look!.... IIRC, this is a Keytronics capacitive keyboard. Basically on the bottom of eack key pluger is a dis of foam with a disk of metalised plastic (metal side towards the foam) under it. When you press the key, the mtalised plastic covers 2 pads on the PCB, increasing the capacitance between them (the metal deoes not touch the PCB pads, the plasitc layer is in the way). They suffer from 2 main faults. The foam dexays, and sometimes the metalisation does too. You need to dismantle it and have a look. Take off the outer casing first (I ssume screws on the underside). if the keybaord cable is plugged into the PCB, I'd unplug it to make thigns easier to handle. On the bottom of the PCB,m under the keys, are lots of small screws. Take tne out (as a matter of principle, I try to take them out in a diagonal pattern, but it doesn;'t really matter here), and lift off the PCB. You can now see the foam and disks, and hopefully see what;s wrong... -tony From ray at arachelian.com Wed Dec 22 15:19:41 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 16:19:41 -0500 Subject: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? In-Reply-To: <262DE34E5261428BAC8C356D1E96A5B8@massey.ac.nz> References: <4D0387B0.8080902@arachelian.com> <97D88E62585D4D6D845A0BFEC76D5F15@portajara> <262DE34E5261428BAC8C356D1E96A5B8@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: <4D126B6D.6040608@arachelian.com> On 12/22/2010 12:56 PM, terry stewart wrote: > Alex, so you really think this might be the cause? The web-info I've > read on the Lisa suggests it's usually the pads that wear out causing > non-responsive keys and that these should be replaced. However what's > odd is... > > 1. All the keys feel very firm, with no sign of the "mushiness" > mentioned in some of the info. The mylar disks can still go bad. There maybe be dirty areas where the mylar disks go down, there might be a short. > 2. ALL the keys expect for one (in two keyboards) are not working AT > ALL no matter how hard you press. Yet the '4' in one and the '/' in > another are working fine and with no pressure needed at all? In the > third keyboard NONE are working. > > It would be great if the problem wasn't the pads, but something more > easy to fix. Laziness is only a virtue for programmers. :-) Whatever's broken is whatever must be fixed. Could be pads, could be something else. > It's hard to believe the pads could deteriorate 100% on all keys bar > one. And on that one they are fine? Anyone on the list had > experience with Lisa keyboards and could comment? Yes, of course. Why do you think I keep sending you to lisafaq.sunder.net for repair info? :-) Those are my repair experiences. It's much easier to write up a FAQ and point people to it than to individually write answers for specific repair questions. It's a fairly easy repair. Another thing to do: Get a can of contact cleaner, the spray kind. Unplug the Lisa. Get some paper towels and lay them down under the Lisa. Spray the stuff nice and thick into the keyboard jack, wait a minute, flip the Lisa forwards so the stuff can run out, hold it like that for 15-20 minutes until dry. Might be the jack. Also wipe down the contacts on keyboard jack too. > > I'll be opening them up in the next day or so so I guess I'll soon see. > When you do, check all 3 the wires in the keyboard connector against where they hook up to the keyboard electronics. Maybe the wires are broken? Carefully clean the "contacts" (quotes because they're not really contacts, they're capacitance sensors.) on the board. Make sure there's no shorts from ancient dust/debris/etc. Look at all the mylar disks, if they're not intact, replace them. Odds are, this is your issue. The foam is easy to fix, just buy double sided foam tape. Hardware/Home repair stores should have it. The only hard part is cutting them into rounds of the right shape. > Terry > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alexandre Souza - Listas" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 12:46 AM > Subject: Re: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? > > >>> Well, not quite. One has the '4' key working on the keypad, the >>> other has the '/' key working. But that's it. >> >> Terry, if ONE of the keys is working, there must be a stuck key or >> a bad contact in the connector betweek the controller board of the >> keyboard (inside it, of course) and whatever brings the switch >> contacts to it (probably a membrane). I'm sure you'll be very lucky >> on that :) >> >> > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 22 15:09:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 21:09:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Sports! .. and with an on-topic association. In-Reply-To: <3C281D158D704F748795926BF36B8A06@vl420mt> from "MikeS" at Dec 22, 10 02:59:16 pm Message-ID: > But he needs a pocket protector; anybody have a spare they could send him? But would I still have space in my pocket for my trusty HP16C? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 22 15:31:41 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 21:31:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives? In-Reply-To: <4D126B6D.6040608@arachelian.com> from "Ray Arachelian" at Dec 22, 10 04:19:41 pm Message-ID: > > On 12/22/2010 12:56 PM, terry stewart wrote: > > Alex, so you really think this might be the cause? The web-info I've > > read on the Lisa suggests it's usually the pads that wear out causing > > non-responsive keys and that these should be replaced. However what's > > odd is... > > > > 1. All the keys feel very firm, with no sign of the "mushiness" > > mentioned in some of the info. > > The mylar disks can still go bad. There maybe be dirty areas where the > mylar disks go down, there might be a short. I once saw a Tektronix-badged Keytronics keyboard where all the metalisation ahd vanished. The foam was fine, the keys felt fine, but none of them worked. > > > 2. ALL the keys expect for one (in two keyboards) are not working AT > > ALL no matter how hard you press. Yet the '4' in one and the '/' in > > another are working fine and with no pressure needed at all? In the > > third keyboard NONE are working. > > > > It would be great if the problem wasn't the pads, but something more > > easy to fix. > > Laziness is only a virtue for programmers. :-) Whatever's broken is > whatever must be fixed. Could be pads, could be something else. Exactly!. Once when I had diagnosed a fault in a friends machine to somehard to get/expensive part he said 'Can't you replace something else'. After wondering just what planet he was one, I replied 'Sure, I can replace any part you want. But if you want the machine to work again I have to replace the faulty part.' > > Another thing to do: Get a can of contact cleaner, the spray kind. > Unplug the Lisa. Get some paper towels and lay them down under the > Lisa. Spray the stuff nice and thick into the keyboard jack, wait a > minute, flip the Lisa forwards so the stuff can run out, hold it like > that for 15-20 minutes until dry. Might be the jack. > > Also wipe down the contacts on keyboard jack too. I don't get this. As I understand the schematics, the keybaord intereface is 3 wires (on a 1/4" e-pole jack plug as we call them over here).Power, ground and a signal line. I don't see how bad contacts there (or indeed broken wires in the keyboard cable) could leave one key still working. -tony From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Dec 22 15:42:19 2010 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 13:42:19 -0800 Subject: HP 10276A LSI-11 Logic Analyzer Probe Interface Message-ID: HP 10276A LSI-11 Logic Analyzer Probe Interface I just picked up an HP 10276A LSI-11 logic analyzer problem interface off of eBay. It was listed simply as a 10269C but it looked like the attached card was a Q-Bus card so I bought it and it turned out to be an HP 10276A. I can't find any information about the 10276A on the net. Any chance anyone on this list has a manual for the 10276A? I posted some photos of the 10276A card here: http://sites.google.com/site/glensvintagecomputerinfo/ If I can get this card to work with my logic analyzer it might be useful to help debug why I cannot successfully install 2.11 BSD from a tape drive attached to a CMD CQD-200 while the installation works fine with a CMD CQD-220. Probably some sort of compatibility issue in the 2.11 BSD TMSCP driver. -Glen From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Dec 22 16:13:40 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 22:13:40 +0000 Subject: DiscFerret: speed-ups, API improvements and a mailing list Message-ID: <4D127814.9010701@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, I've spent the past two days working on the Python API and Firmware for the DiscFerret. This work has resulted in a few enhancements... Firstly, I've made the RAM access routines a heck of a lot faster. How much faster? About SEVEN TIMES. The 001A firmware can access RAM at about 30Kbytes per second (peak is ~31KiB/sec during a RAM read). Upgrade to Firmware 001B, and this increases to ~220 KiB/sec, or very close to the theoretical limit of the Microchip USB engine (which is about 250KiB/sec). I'm looking for other ways to boost the transfer rate, but I think this is as far as it's going to go. To put this in perspective, if we assume that it takes one second to read a disc track, and that we get 128Kbytes of data from that read... 80 tracks double-sided = 160 tracks 160 * 128 = 20,480 KiB = 20MiB 20480 / 220 = 93 seconds to transfer the data (only!) Disc rotates at 300RPM. 60 seconds / 300RPM = 0.2 seconds per revolution If we wait for the second index pulse before reading, that's a maximum wait of 0.4 seconds, plus 0.2 seconds to read each track = 0.6 seconds per track, excluding seek 0.6 * 160 = 96 seconds 96 seconds + 93 seconds = 189 seconds... or three minutes and nine seconds. If you reduce the clock rate from 80MHz to 40MHz, that halves the amount of data which needs to be transferred, thus bringing the time down to 141 seconds, or two minutes and twenty-one seconds. Did I mention that -- at full speed -- this is about 30 seconds faster than the SPS Kryoflux analyser? If you're happy with Catweasel-level accuracy (~20MHz acq frequency), then you can get this down to 117 seconds... a shade under two minutes per disc. Admittedly, to get this speed-up, you need to reflash the firmware -- short the BOOT jumper, plug in the power cable and USB, then use mphidflash to upgrade the firmware. Unplug the cables, remove the jumper, then plug the USB and power cables back in. Simple! Next up -- the Python API now handles RAM access chunking. Tell it to read 512K of data, and it'll run off and figure out how many READ commands need to be sent, and how to read those bytes from the hardware in the fastest way possible (i.e. how many bytes it can stuff in each packet). It's also fully backwards compatible with the 1A firmware, although you'll hit the 30KiB/sec speed limit... I've also set up a mailing list -- it's open-access, sign up and you can post, or you can skim the list archives as much as you please. I'll be posting news about software updates, answering questions, and helping out with hardware issues. The mailing list homepage is: http://mail.discferret.com/mailman/listinfo/discferret-l_discferret.com If for some reason you don't like the Mailman web interface (or it refuses to play nice), you can also subscribe to the list by sending an email to discferret-l-request at discferret.com with the subject "subscribe" (no quotes). I'll be posting a slightly longer message there in a few minutes detailing exactly what you need to do to upgrade a Release 1A DiscFerret to Release 1B, including a new firmware HEX file. I should probably turn the DiscFerret site into a semi-closed Wiki (some pages protected, others open, "if you're on the mailing list you can edit the Wiki"), though that's a job for later... I'm also toying with the idea of offloading data separation onto the DiscFerret FPGA, meaning that you'd be able to program the data separator, then just grab a stream of clock and data bits instead of the timing stream. Less effort if all you want is an ADF file, and less data to transfer too... Enjoy! -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 22 16:22:34 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 14:22:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP 10276A LSI-11 Logic Analyzer Probe Interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Dec 2010, Glen Slick wrote: > If I can get this card to work with my logic analyzer it might be > useful to help debug why I cannot successfully install 2.11 BSD from a > tape drive attached to a CMD CQD-200 while the installation works fine > with a CMD CQD-220. Probably some sort of compatibility issue in the > 2.11 BSD TMSCP driver. Do you have all the patches applied? I know that I couldn't install 2.11 on my PDP-11, as I have Viking QDT card, and it doesn't work without one of latest couple patches. Zane From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Dec 22 16:26:52 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 14:26:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Uncommon: Intel Paragon on iOffer In-Reply-To: from William Donzelli at "Dec 22, 10 02:01:47 pm" Message-ID: <201012222226.oBMMQqAC015984@floodgap.com> > > Personally I always thought the i860 was far from a stumble, because in > > fact it was the highest MFlops/dollar and MFlops/watt for a considerable > > length of time and used in a number of high-horsepower applications > > in the real world. > > And Intel sure sold quite a few i860s. I would bet that most i860s > ended up as coprocessor cards in PeeCees, where they did one task and > did not run into the dreaded pipeline flush context switch problem. I know I've seen i860s in graphics boards. I think one of the NeXTs used them as well. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Out of my mind (back in an hour). ------------------------------------------ From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Dec 22 16:35:02 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 17:35:02 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/45 power cords In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201012221735.03104.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday, December 22, 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > So...RCS is looking for official DEC 120 VAC 14-3 power cords with > > the early/mid 70s type molded-in power connectors, in nice > > condition, of course. Do you have some DECjunk with these power > > cords? We are interested (and will make it worth your while) if > > you can disconnect them - decently long lengths would be nice. > > You would have to get them from 120V machines. Over here (and I > asusume in other countries with 230V or so mains), DEC used 234V > plugs with 'horizontal' live and neutral pins (you know what I mean > ;-)). And on all the DEC machines of that sort of vintage I've > worked on, the 234V plugs are rewirable (not moulded) Hubble ones. > If ytou were over here, you'd just replace the cable, not the plug > as well... FWIW, the BA-11 boxes that I have also have Hubble non-molded plugs, just the 120V (NEMA 5-15) variety instead of the 240V (NEMA 6-15) variety. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 22 16:49:12 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 14:49:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: apple Lisa2. In-Reply-To: References: <4D0387B0.8080902@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <20101222143232.P55400@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 22 Dec 2010, terry stewart wrote: > Anyway, the good news is the Lisa booted just fine! However, the bad news > is (as I suspected) all THREE of my Lisa keyboards are non-functional. > Well, not quite. One has the '4' key working on the keypad, the other has > the '/' key working. But that's it. Then just remap those two keys to '1' and '0' (which oughta have a slash through it). Before the Lisa was first released, my cousin was using a Beta machine to write Berkeley SmallTalk. It came with a trivial ap that put a keyboard layout on the screen to use with the mouse. S'posedly that was because they had already had at least one keyboard failure. I tried [unsuccessfully] to make a "Twiggy" diskette out of a 360K; you need to use the 600 Oerstedt (1.2M) blanks. Only one key working wouldn't NECESSARILY be the keyboard itself. I assume that you swapped and kept track of whether the working key stayed with the machine or keyboard? I don't know which kind of keyboard mechanism those had. If you repeatedly over and over and over and over, press another key will it begin to work intermittently? If so, then it is a job for a Rochester DynaTyper! (or KGS-80). It took less than a MB of plain (manuscript) text to restore one of my TRS80 keyboards. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Wed Dec 22 17:11:16 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 17:11:16 -0600 Subject: Uncommon: Intel Paragon on iOffer In-Reply-To: <201012222226.oBMMQqAC015984@floodgap.com> References: Message-ID: The i860 was in: Stardent Vistra AT&T 3d PC accelerator card for TOPAS both failed in the marketplace, this was the year of the 25MHz Compaq that was almost as fast, at least running TOPAS. I think the Vistra held on for a bit with Weitek vector processor supporting it. Stardent (Kubota Computer Graphics) was the largest computer failure and bankruptcy at the time, late 80s. > From: spectre at floodgap.com > Subject: Re: Uncommon: Intel Paragon on iOffer > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 14:26:52 -0800 > > > > Personally I always thought the i860 was far from a stumble, because in > > > fact it was the highest MFlops/dollar and MFlops/watt for a considerable > > > length of time and used in a number of high-horsepower applications > > > in the real world. > > > > And Intel sure sold quite a few i860s. I would bet that most i860s > > ended up as coprocessor cards in PeeCees, where they did one task and > > did not run into the dreaded pipeline flush context switch problem. > > I know I've seen i860s in graphics boards. I think one of the NeXTs used > them as well. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Out of my mind (back in an hour). ------------------------------------------ From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 22 18:25:26 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 16:25:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Uncommon: Intel Paragon on iOffer In-Reply-To: <4D11DD00.28972.60B553@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D11DD00.28972.60B553@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20101222162134.Q55400@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 22 Dec 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Himself BillG even gave it some happy words (but then, what products > of Intel didn't he give happy words to?). He called the 80286 "brain dead"! I remember Gordon Letwin (Microsoft OS/2) describing switching back and forth between real and protected mode as being "like having to turn off your engine to switch gears on the freeway". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Dec 22 18:33:46 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 22:33:46 -0200 Subject: Uncommon: Intel Paragon on iOffer References: <4D11DD00.28972.60B553@cclist.sydex.com> <20101222162134.Q55400@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <372151E658324B92BA50E11BD38D3D90@portajara> > He called the 80286 "brain dead"! Was anything alive on that? ;oD > I remember Gordon Letwin (Microsoft OS/2) describing switching back and > forth between real and protected mode as being "like having to turn off > your engine to switch gears on the freeway". Well, that is the way it actually happens...but instead of turning off, you just disconnect it :) So, the autohydraulic transmission is the pentium of the cogboxes? :oD From als at thangorodrim.de Wed Dec 22 19:00:54 2010 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 02:00:54 +0100 Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <20101221141444.N15785@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101220142530.H75700@shell.lmi.net> <4D0FE5DC.2080506@tx.rr.com> <20101221141444.N15785@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20101223010054.GB5368@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 02:18:02PM -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: > > >> Brawn doesn't preclude brains. > > > Unless you play without a helmet. > > On Mon, 20 Dec 2010, Charlie Carothers wrote: > > Recent news seems to me to suggest that helmets are insufficient > > protection. I know it's heretical, but I seriously suspect that US > > style football should be banned as being way too dangerous. > > Time to switch to Rugby? > > > I suspect that much of the public WANTS to watch violence that is beyond > what is expected in normal daily life. A lot of modern day public competitive sports (football, rugby, soccer, boxing and quite a few more) are after all tame versions of the "good" old roman circus games. Nowadays, we just don't kill (intentionally, but it makes great press if a gory accident happens) people for entertainment. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 22 19:29:34 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 17:29:34 -0800 Subject: Uncommon: Intel Paragon on iOffer In-Reply-To: <20101222162134.Q55400@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4D11DD00.28972.60B553@cclist.sydex.com>, <20101222162134.Q55400@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4D12357E.7669.1BA624E@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Dec 2010 at 16:25, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 22 Dec 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Himself BillG even gave it some happy words (but then, what products > > of Intel didn't he give happy words to?). > > He called the 80286 "brain dead"! > > > I remember Gordon Letwin (Microsoft OS/2) describing switching back > and forth between real and protected mode as being "like having to > turn off your engine to switch gears on the freeway". I assume this was before the LOADALL instruction was discovered. I wonder if Letwin's statement was designed to confuse the competition, since you"d think that Microsoft would be on the Intel developer distribution list... --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 22 20:36:00 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 21:36:00 -0500 Subject: Uncommon: Intel Paragon on iOffer In-Reply-To: <201012222226.oBMMQqAC015984@floodgap.com> References: <201012222226.oBMMQqAC015984@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <033D5AAA-74E6-451B-81EA-CDA0A296AD0F@neurotica.com> On Dec 22, 2010, at 5:26 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> Personally I always thought the i860 was far from a stumble, because in >>> fact it was the highest MFlops/dollar and MFlops/watt for a considerable >>> length of time and used in a number of high-horsepower applications >>> in the real world. >> >> And Intel sure sold quite a few i860s. I would bet that most i860s >> ended up as coprocessor cards in PeeCees, where they did one task and >> did not run into the dreaded pipeline flush context switch problem. > > I know I've seen i860s in graphics boards. I think one of the NeXTs used > them as well. I don't recall seeing any i860s in NeXT hardware. What was on the NeXTDimension board? It has been too long since I've seen one. Some high-end SGI graphics subsystems for their Ebus machines use big arrays of i860s. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 22 21:53:21 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 20:53:21 -0700 Subject: HP-85 score Message-ID: Picked up an HP-85 the other day, including the HP7470A plotter, GPIB interface for the plotter, ROM library with a couple ROMs, 16K memory expansion, carrying case, manuals, and DC100 tapes. The thing is in very good physical condition, obviously having been cared for by its previous owner. I bought it from the owner's ex-wife for $50. Pics: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 22 22:21:13 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 23:21:13 -0500 Subject: HP-85 score In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 22, 2010, at 10:53 PM, Richard wrote: > Picked up an HP-85 the other day, including the HP7470A plotter, GPIB > interface for the plotter, ROM library with a couple ROMs, 16K memory > expansion, carrying case, manuals, and DC100 tapes. The thing is in > very good physical condition, obviously having been cared for by its > previous owner. I bought it from the owner's ex-wife for $50. Pics: > An excellent score! I really like HP85s. The only member of that family that I currently have is an 87XM. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From steerex at ccvn.com Wed Dec 22 10:07:40 2010 From: steerex at ccvn.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 11:07:40 -0500 Subject: Swap a Radio Shack Pocket Computer for a TI-85 calculator manual? References: <9DDE4F47-016E-4DBD-B3A0-1EEDDD125888@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <004101cba1f2$5cc9fcd0$0a01a8c0@win2k> The manual can be found on-line at: http://education.ti.com/downloads/guidebooks/graphing/85/85book-eng.pdf ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Betz" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 1:21 PM Subject: Swap a Radio Shack Pocket Computer for a TI-85 calculator manual? Anyone interested in this swap? I just recently got a TI-85 calculator thinking that I had a manual for it already. It seems that somewhere along the line I decided that I didn't really need the manual anymore so I got rid of it. So, I now have a calculator with no manual. Anyone have an extra TI-85 manual they'd like to trade for a Radio Shack Pocket Computer with manual?= From jws at jwsss.com Wed Dec 22 20:09:58 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 18:09:58 -0800 Subject: Uncommon: Intel Paragon on iOffer In-Reply-To: <4D12357E.7669.1BA624E@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4D11DD00.28972.60B553@cclist.sydex.com>, <20101222162134.Q55400@shell.lmi.net> <4D12357E.7669.1BA624E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D12AF76.1060205@jwsss.com> On 12/22/2010 5:29 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 22 Dec 2010 at 16:25, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> On Wed, 22 Dec 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> Himself BillG even gave it some happy words (but then, what products >>> of Intel didn't he give happy words to?). >> He called the 80286 "brain dead"! >> >> >> I remember Gordon Letwin (Microsoft OS/2) describing switching back >> and forth between real and protected mode as being "like having to >> turn off your engine to switch gears on the freeway". > I assume this was before the LOADALL instruction was discovered. I > wonder if Letwin's statement was designed to confuse the competition, > since you"d think that Microsoft would be on the Intel developer > distribution list... > > --Chuck > > Developers didn't know about it. A friend of mine found and documented it. It was not even in the Red covers for the processor. Some other friends at Micro 5, who were writing a clone of the 286 bios for their clone and the emm driver found that microsoft knew about it by discovering it in their code, which could do protected mode entry / exits and data transfers as a result "too fast" They disassembled and reverse engineered the method and included it in their driver, which when discovered caused a big fuss because intel thought they had violated IP, (they were not nondisclosed). And it was brain dead to do that. By the way, the loadall was in there at all to support the bondout package version used in ICE. Up to that time, INtel never had done a bondout chip special for any of their ice products, but used the same die with more signals for that purpose. Other vendors of ICE had to do elaborate things to support the ICE function if it was doable at all. Jim From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Dec 23 03:23:12 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 01:23:12 -0800 Subject: Uncommon: Intel Paragon on iOffer In-Reply-To: <4D12AF76.1060205@jwsss.com> References: , <4D11DD00.28972.60B553@cclist.sydex.com>, <20101222162134.Q55400@shell.lmi.net> <4D12357E.7669.1BA624E@cclist.sydex.com> <4D12AF76.1060205@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4D131500.2070805@brouhaha.com> jim s wrote: > Up to that time, INtel never had done a bondout chip special for any > of their ice products, but used the same die with more signals for that > purpose. I think you may be mistaken about that. Some of Intel's ICE products for their single-chip micros used special bondout chips that brought out signals not bonded out on the normal parts. These were for the 8048 and 8051 series parts. The early versions of the ICE for the 8048 did use standard parts, and that caused problems where the ICE didn't behave exactly the same as the masked-ROM part. If I recall correctly, the special 8051 bond-out chip actually taped out before the normal masked ROM and the EPROM version. I suspect that there were special bondout chips for other related parts, such as the 8021, 8041, etc., but I didn't use the corresponding ICE products so I don't have any firsthand knowledge about those. Eric From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Dec 23 04:04:16 2010 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 23:04:16 +1300 Subject: apple Lisa2. Keypads References: <4D0387B0.8080902@arachelian.com> <97D88E62585D4D6D845A0BFEC76D5F15@portajara><262DE34E5261428BAC8C356D1E96A5B8@massey.ac.nz> <4D126B6D.6040608@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <446951A77ABB47F8B5AE5083B0C30142@massey.ac.nz> Hi Ray, Ah, so you wrote that repair stuff at lisafaq.sunder.net . A very useful site which I have refered to often during this Lisa restoration. I opened the keyboard tonight following the instructions in the FAQ. It was the mylar disks and the pads allright. Note this photo. http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2010-12-23-lisa-pads.jpg The silver disk you see is the working number 4 key. The only key apart from the caps lock whose mylar disk was still silvered. The foam wasn't in good shape either as can be seen from this photo. http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2010-12-23-lisa-pads-degraded.jpgSo that's indeed the cause. Looks like it's not too hard to fix, althoughfiddly. Thanks for providing the info.Terry----- Original Message -----From: "Ray Arachelian" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 10:19 AMSubject: Re: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives?> On 12/22/2010 12:56 PM, terry stewart wrote:>> Alex, so you really think this might be the cause? The web-info I've>> read on the Lisa suggests it's usually the pads that wear out causing>> non-responsive keys and that these should be replaced. However what's>> odd is...>>>> 1. All the keys feel very firm, with no sign of the "mushiness">> mentioned in some of the info.>> The mylar disks can still go bad. There maybe be dirty areas where the> mylar disks go down, there might be a short.>>> 2. ALL the keys expect for one (i! n two keyboards) are not working AT>> ALL no matter how hard you press. Yet the '4' in one and the '/' in>> another are working fine and with no pressure needed at all? In the>> third keyboard NONE are working.>>>> It would be great if the problem wasn't the pads, but something more>> easy to fix.>> Laziness is only a virtue for programmers. :-) Whatever's broken is> whatever must be fixed. Could be pads, could be something else.>>> It's hard to believe the pads could deteriorate 100% on all keys bar>> one. And on that one they are fine? Anyone on the list had>> experience with Lisa keyboards and could comment?>> Yes, of course. Why do you think I keep sending you to> lisafaq.sunder.net for repair info? :-) Those are my repair> experiences. It's much easier to write up a FAQ and point people to it> than to individually write answers for specific repair questions. It's> a fairly easy repair.>> Another thing to do: Get a can of contact cleaner, the spray kind.> Unpl! ug the Lisa. Get some paper towels and lay them down under the> Lisa. Spray the stuff nice and thick into the keyboard jack, wait a> minute, flip the Lisa forwards so the stuff can run out, hold it like> that for 15-20 minutes until dry. Might be the jack.>> Also wipe down the contacts on keyboard jack too.>>>>>> I'll be opening them up in the next day or so so I guess I'll soon see.>>>> When you do, check all 3 the wires in the keyboard connector against> where they hook up to the keyboard electronics. Maybe the wires arebroken?>> Carefully clean the "contacts" (quotes because they're not really> contacts, they're capacitance sensors.) on the board. Make sure there's> no shorts from ancient dust/debris/etc.>> Look at all the mylar disks, if they're not intact, replace them. Odds> are, this is your issue.> The foam is easy to fix, just buy double sided foam tape. Hardware/Home> repair stores should have it.>> The only hard part is cutting them into rounds of the right shape.>>>> Terry>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alexandr! e Souza - Listas">> >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts">> >> Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 12:46 AM>> Subject: Re: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives?>>>>>>>> Well, not quite. One has the '4' key working on the keypad, the>>>> other has the '/' key working. But that's it.>>>>>> Terry, if ONE of the keys is working, there must be a stuck key or>>> a bad contact in the connector betweek the controller board of the>>> keyboard (inside it, of course) and whatever brings the switch>>> contacts to it (probably a membrane). I'm sure you'll be very lucky>>> on that :)>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From toby at pdp11.co.uk Thu Dec 23 08:11:45 2010 From: toby at pdp11.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 14:11:45 +0000 Subject: Using a Variac to revive power supplies Message-ID: I've recently acquired a Variac (220V 10A) and was wondering what the collectives views are on using them to revive long dormant power supplies. Previously I have removed the electrolytics and reformed them with a bench power supply setup, slowly ramping up the voltage (as per http://www.vcomp.co.uk/tech_tips/reform_caps/reform_caps.htm). Am I right in thinking I can use the Variac to effectively reform the capacitors in circuit? I'm currently rebuilding one of my PDP-8/E's which has a linear PSU which I believe is ok, but will it also work with later DEC switchmode PSUs? All the best, Toby From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Dec 23 10:05:48 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 08:05:48 -0800 Subject: Using a Variac to revive power supplies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> From: toby at pdp11.co.uk > I've recently acquired a Variac (220V 10A) and was wondering what the > collectives views are on using them to revive long dormant power supplies. > > Previously I have removed the electrolytics and reformed them with a bench > power supply setup, slowly ramping up the voltage (as per > http://www.vcomp.co.uk/tech_tips/reform_caps/reform_caps.htm). Am I right in > thinking I can use the Variac to effectively reform the capacitors in > circuit? > > I'm currently rebuilding one of my PDP-8/E's which has a linear PSU which I > believe is ok, but will it also work with later DEC switchmode PSUs? > > All the best, > Toby Hi Don't use it on switchers. It is sure to either cause a failure or for those that have brown-out feathers to not work as expected. If you want to bring up capacitors for switchers, remove them from supply and use bench supply with a limiting resistor. This is the better way, even for a linear supply. Tinker Dwight From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Dec 23 11:07:25 2010 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 09:07:25 -0800 Subject: Uncommon: Intel Paragon on iOffer In-Reply-To: <4D12AF76.1060205@jwsss.com> References: , <4D11DD00.28972.60B553@cclist.sydex.com>, <20101222162134.Q55400@shell.lmi.net> <4D12357E.7669.1BA624E@cclist.sydex.com> <4D12AF76.1060205@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <19343D3F-5DFA-45EC-A333-97DFB13192F3@shiresoft.com> On Dec 22, 2010, at 6:09 PM, jim s wrote: > > > On 12/22/2010 5:29 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 22 Dec 2010 at 16:25, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >>> On Wed, 22 Dec 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>>> Himself BillG even gave it some happy words (but then, what products >>>> of Intel didn't he give happy words to?). >>> He called the 80286 "brain dead"! >>> >>> >>> I remember Gordon Letwin (Microsoft OS/2) describing switching back >>> and forth between real and protected mode as being "like having to >>> turn off your engine to switch gears on the freeway". >> I assume this was before the LOADALL instruction was discovered. I >> wonder if Letwin's statement was designed to confuse the competition, >> since you"d think that Microsoft would be on the Intel developer >> distribution list... >> >> --Chuck >> >> > Developers didn't know about it. A friend of mine found and documented it. It was not even in the Red covers for the processor. There was a separate document that described it. > > Some other friends at Micro 5, who were writing a clone of the 286 bios for their clone and the emm driver found that microsoft knew about it by discovering it in their code, which could do protected mode entry / exits and data transfers as a result "too fast" They disassembled and reverse engineered the method and included it in their driver, which when discovered caused a big fuss because intel thought they had violated IP, (they were not nondisclosed). Several of us at IBM were doing "interesting" things with the loadall instruction on the 286. The 386 also had a variation of the loadall instruction but with the introduction of the vm86 mode, the major need to use (outside of Intel) the loadall instruction was obviated. > > And it was brain dead to do that. By the way, the loadall was in there at all to support the bondout package version used in ICE. Up to that time, INtel never had done a bondout chip special for any of their ice products, but used the same die with more signals for that purpose. Other vendors of ICE had to do elaborate things to support the ICE function if it was doable at all. The loadall instruction was a "test" instruction (Intel does similar things on most of their parts). It allowed them to load all of the state of the processor at once. It simplified their testing of the part. The ICE parts were special bondouts/fuse versions of the part (Intel still does that today...but for different SKUs...no more ICE). When you start getting into high frequency buses it's just not feasible. Looking at the FSB analyzers for Core & Core 2 parts it was amazing that they worked at all (the analyzers). How to you probe every signal on a high pin count 1GHz+ bus? It's not easy and the equipment is $$$$$$$. The ICE functionality has been replaced with a JTAG like interface/protocol. TTFN - Guy From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Dec 23 12:31:16 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 10:31:16 -0800 Subject: Using a Variac to revive power supplies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D139574.4070609@brouhaha.com> Tobias Russell wrote: > I've recently acquired a Variac (220V 10A) and was wondering what the > collectives views are on using them to revive long dormant power supplies. [...] > but will it also work with later DEC switchmode PSUs? No! You should never run a switching supply on a variac, except within the supply's rated input voltage range. Definitely do not plug the supply into the variac and dial it up from zero! From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Dec 23 12:42:45 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 13:42:45 -0500 Subject: Using a Variac to revive power supplies In-Reply-To: <4D139574.4070609@brouhaha.com> References: <4D139574.4070609@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4D139825.7000400@verizon.net> On 12/23/2010 01:31 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Tobias Russell wrote: > > I've recently acquired a Variac (220V 10A) and was wondering what the > > collectives views are on using them to revive long dormant power > supplies. > [...] > > but will it also work with later DEC switchmode PSUs? > > No! You should never run a switching supply on a variac, except > within the supply's rated input voltage range. Definitely do not plug > the supply into the variac and dial it up from zero! > > Agreed! My favorite is a series lamp in the 40-300W range to limit current and run the SMPS with a light load (10% of rated). If there is a short the lamp lights to limit current and all is good it's dim or no glow. Cheap and fairly simple, insures the start voltage is near 100% if the ok. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 23 12:53:21 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 10:53:21 -0800 Subject: Uncommon: Intel Paragon on iOffer In-Reply-To: <4D12AF76.1060205@jwsss.com> References: , <4D12357E.7669.1BA624E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D12AF76.1060205@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4D132A21.8353.208BF8@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Dec 2010 at 18:09, jim s wrote: > Developers didn't know about it. A friend of mine found and > documented it. It was not even in the Red covers for the processor. Actually, I find that entirely believable. We were working with the early steppings of the 186. We also had early steppings of the 286 in-house but hadn't done much other than test real-mode operation; Intel was working on the kernel for Xenix; In retrospect, I wonder if the Intel Xenix team even knew about the LOADALL instruction. Anyway, back to the 186. I recall took us about 2 weeks to track down one such nasty bug, all while our Intel apps contact sort of stood by with his hands in his pockets. When we informed him of the bug, the response from the chip development group was "oh yeah, we knew about that a couple of weeks ago". Communication within Intel was terrible by the time it got to the customer. And Bill Davidow was on our board of directors, so it wasn't as if we didn't have any influence. --Chuck From toby at pdp11.co.uk Thu Dec 23 13:06:04 2010 From: toby at pdp11.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 19:06:04 +0000 Subject: Using a Variac to revive power supplies In-Reply-To: <4D139574.4070609@brouhaha.com> References: <4D139574.4070609@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: Ok, I suspected as much. So for a linear supply such as the 8/E's is a Variac a valid way to go or should I reform the capacitors individually as I've done previously? All the best, Toby On 23 December 2010 18:31, Eric Smith wrote: > Tobias Russell wrote: > > I've recently acquired a Variac (220V 10A) and was wondering what the > > collectives views are on using them to revive long dormant power > supplies. > [...] > > > but will it also work with later DEC switchmode PSUs? > > No! You should never run a switching supply on a variac, except within the > supply's rated input voltage range. Definitely do not plug the supply into > the variac and dial it up from zero! > > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Thu Dec 23 13:14:38 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 11:14:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Byte magazine is making a comeback In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <280080.16187.qm@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://createyournextcustomer.techweb.com/2010/12/byte/ From ray at arachelian.com Thu Dec 23 13:43:59 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 14:43:59 -0500 Subject: apple Lisa2. Keypads In-Reply-To: <446951A77ABB47F8B5AE5083B0C30142@massey.ac.nz> References: <4D0387B0.8080902@arachelian.com> <97D88E62585D4D6D845A0BFEC76D5F15@portajara><262DE34E5261428BAC8C356D1E96A5B8@massey.ac.nz> <4D126B6D.6040608@arachelian.com> <446951A77ABB47F8B5AE5083B0C30142@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: <4D13A67F.1030908@arachelian.com> On 12/23/2010 05:04 AM, terry stewart wrote: > Hi Ray, > > Ah, so you wrote that repair stuff at lisafaq.sunder.net . A very > useful site which I have refered to often during this Lisa restoration. > > I opened the keyboard tonight following the instructions in the FAQ. > It was the mylar disks and the pads allright. Note this photo. > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2010-12-23-lisa-pads.jpg > > The silver disk you see is the working number 4 key. The only key > apart from the caps lock whose mylar disk was still silvered. The > foam wasn't in good shape either as can be seen from this photo. > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2010-12-23-lisa-pads-degraded.jpgSo > that's indeed the cause. Looks like it's not too hard to fix, > althoughfiddly. Wow, I've not seen too many Lisa keyboards, but none whose mylar was that damaged. Well, let us know how the repair went. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Dec 23 14:06:15 2010 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 09:06:15 +1300 Subject: apple Lisa2. Keypads References: <4D0387B0.8080902@arachelian.com> <97D88E62585D4D6D845A0BFEC76D5F15@portajara><262DE34E5261428BAC8C356D1E96A5B8@massey.ac.nz> <4D126B6D.6040608@arachelian.com><446951A77ABB47F8B5AE5083B0C30142@massey.ac.nz> <4D13A67F.1030908@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <2F962B08827043D48625681EFF2328F9@vshack> > Wow, I've not seen too many Lisa keyboards, but none whose mylar was > that damaged. Well, let us know how the repair went. Yes. I haven't opened the other two but I'm sure I'd be looking at the same thing. Ray, any thoughts of what might cause this deterioration? Would it be because it's been kept in a humid enviromnent and/or a hot environment? Or excessive use? Any ideas? I'm tossing up whether or not to buy some replacements or make them. I know REAL classic computer guys don't BUY replacement Lisa keypads...they MAKE them. However I can afford it, and am inclined to go that route. (-: . The ones I'm looking at getting appear in good condition BUT I don't want to get them only to be faced with the same problem a few years down the track. Cheers Terry From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 23 14:01:03 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 20:01:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Uncommon: Intel Paragon on iOffer In-Reply-To: <201012222226.oBMMQqAC015984@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Dec 22, 10 02:26:52 pm Message-ID: > > And Intel sure sold quite a few i860s. I would bet that most i860s > > ended up as coprocessor cards in PeeCees, where they did one task and > > did not run into the dreaded pipeline flush context switch problem. > > I know I've seen i860s in graphics boards. I think one of the NeXTs used > them as well. Somehwre I have an HP graphics unit (I forget the model number) which links to the 'grpahics bus' on an HP9000/300 or 9000/400 series machine. I am pretty sure there's an i860 in there (along with a lot of HP custom silicon which is why I've not spent any time with it yet). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 23 14:04:18 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 20:04:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing In-Reply-To: <20101223010054.GB5368@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> from "Alexander Schreiber" at Dec 23, 10 02:00:54 am Message-ID: > old roman circus games. Nowadays, we just don't kill (intentionally, but > it makes great press if a gory accident happens) people for entertainment. No, we just m,ake them brain-damaged. And I am not convinced that is an improvement. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 23 14:31:26 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 20:31:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Using a Variac to revive power supplies In-Reply-To: from "Tobias Russell" at Dec 23, 10 02:11:45 pm Message-ID: > > I've recently acquired a Variac (220V 10A) and was wondering what the > collectives views are on using them to revive long dormant power supplies. Some people swear by the Variac for such things, I am not sure why... > Previously I have removed the electrolytics and reformed them with a bench > power supply setup, slowly ramping up the voltage (as per > http://www.vcomp.co.uk/tech_tips/reform_caps/reform_caps.htm). Am I right in > thinking I can use the Variac to effectively reform the capacitors in > circuit? > Maybe, maybe not. You could ramp up the votlage across the smoothing capacitors (straight after the transformer/rectifier), but don't you want to limit the currnet (if they need reforming) or at least check the leakage current. In which case you will ahve to disconenct one end of the capacitor anyway. Anyyhing downstream of the rgualtor can't really be reformed using a variaco n the mains input either.. > I'm currently rebuilding one of my PDP-8/E's which has a linear PSU which I > believe is ok, but will it also work with later DEC switchmode PSUs? I would never use a variac on an SMPSU. SMPSUs are one of the few things that approciomate a constant _power_ load which emans they actually draw more current as the input voltage decreases. It's possible to damage some tupes of SMPUS by giving them too little input voltage. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 23 14:37:21 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 20:37:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Using a Variac to revive power supplies In-Reply-To: <4D139825.7000400@verizon.net> from "allison" at Dec 23, 10 01:42:45 pm Message-ID: > Agreed! My favorite is a series lamp in the 40-300W range to limit > current and run the SMPS > with a light load (10% of rated). If there is a short the lamp lights > to limit current and all is good > it's dim or no glow. Yes, I do that too. I also use a ;series light bulb' with unknown linear supplies, it saves my nerves if the transformer has shorted turns or womething. IT may also protect a lienar supply's transfdofmer from further damage if there's a shorted rectifier or similar. For SMPSUs I have a pair of240V bulbs in seres which I connect in the +ve DC line between the mains smoothing caapciotor and the chopper circuit. This will limit the chopper current if something goes very wrong, andf while it may not save the chopper transistor, it will stop tracees getting blasted off the PCB. Of course owing to daft EU regualtions, cuitable ight bulbs are getting harder to find. Idiots! And as I said in my messag,e I'm with you andEric, I would never try to 'run up' an SMPSU on a variac. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 23 14:12:47 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 20:12:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-85 score In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Dec 22, 10 08:53:21 pm Message-ID: > > Picked up an HP-85 the other day, including the HP7470A plotter, GPIB Nice toy. I have to sdmit that the HP80 seires are my least favourite HP desktops , owing the large number og H Pcustom chips they use and the strange I/O bus which is not easy to make devices for, but they are still very nice machines. Yo uwant to look at http://www.hpmuseum.net/ if you haven't already. You can find a lot of manuals there froe the machine, plotter, etc. Maybe some software too, but I think you need a disk drive and mass storage ROM to maake use of it. Incidnetally, there si no simple way to sue an EPROM in place for the HP ROM modules, so don;t think you can obtain ROM images and make your own ROMs. > interface for the plotter, ROM library with a couple ROMs, 16K memory > expansion, carrying case, manuals, and DC100 tapes. The thing is in The tape drive capstan will probably need replacing, and the printer belts may well have decayed too. There are not major problems. If you decide to go inside the machine, a few comments. To get the top cover off, pull off the tape eject button, then undo all the screws on the bottom. The case lifts off. Be careful of the CRT and high voltages on the PCB to the left of it (which contains all the video circutry, including the digital stuff and video RAM. The various bits of the machine are interconnected by 'tapewire' which has the annoying hbbitt of going open-circuit or not making proper contct when you plug it back in. If yuo have odd problems, it's worth checking this. Let me know if you have any problems with it, I will try to help. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 23 14:46:47 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 20:46:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: apple Lisa2. Keypads In-Reply-To: <2F962B08827043D48625681EFF2328F9@vshack> from "Terry Stewart" at Dec 24, 10 09:06:15 am Message-ID: > I'm tossing up whether or not to buy some replacements or make them. I know > REAL classic computer guys don't BUY replacement Lisa keypads...they MAKE OK, I am not a 'real' classic computer guy then. Perhaps I'm 'integer' or 'complex' :-) More seriously, I will buiy the right spare part if it;s available (and I have an idea that these Keytronics pads are avaialble as you suggest). I make parts when ; 1) the origianl part is simply unobtainable 2) I would have to replace a lot more than I need to (e.g. in the case of the Lisa keyboard if I could only get complete keyboards, rather than just the pads). 3) If the 'right' spare part is ridiculously expensive (compared to my cost to make it). Alas in a lot of cases with my machiens at least one of those is true, which is why I rewind motors/transformers, machine new mechancial bits, add kludgeboards to use chips I can get. etc. But if yoyu can get anf afford the right part, I'd do that. -tony From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Dec 23 15:34:04 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 22:34:04 +0100 Subject: Uncommon: Intel Paragon on iOffer In-Reply-To: <033D5AAA-74E6-451B-81EA-CDA0A296AD0F@neurotica.com> References: <201012222226.oBMMQqAC015984@floodgap.com> <033D5AAA-74E6-451B-81EA-CDA0A296AD0F@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20101223223404.35f80263.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 22 Dec 2010 21:36:00 -0500 Dave McGuire wrote: > I don't recall seeing any i860s in NeXT hardware. > What was on the NeXTDimension board? Yes, NeXTdimension. See: http://www.levenez.com/NeXTSTEP/NeXTdimension.pdf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeXTdimension -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Dec 23 15:46:15 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 22:46:15 +0100 Subject: Uncommon: Intel Paragon on iOffer In-Reply-To: <033D5AAA-74E6-451B-81EA-CDA0A296AD0F@neurotica.com> References: <201012222226.oBMMQqAC015984@floodgap.com> <033D5AAA-74E6-451B-81EA-CDA0A296AD0F@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20101223224615.f86bf0b4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 22 Dec 2010 21:36:00 -0500 Dave McGuire wrote: > Some high-end SGI graphics subsystems for their Ebus machines use > big arrays of i860s. Well. The Extreme GFX for the 1st generation (teal R4k based) Indigo2 puts 8 i860 geometry engines in a desktop machine... -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 23 16:02:06 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 17:02:06 -0500 Subject: Uncommon: Intel Paragon on iOffer In-Reply-To: <20101223224615.f86bf0b4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <201012222226.oBMMQqAC015984@floodgap.com> <033D5AAA-74E6-451B-81EA-CDA0A296AD0F@neurotica.com> <20101223224615.f86bf0b4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4D13C6DE.4010406@neurotica.com> On 12/23/10 4:46 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: >> Some high-end SGI graphics subsystems for their Ebus machines use >> big arrays of i860s. > Well. The Extreme GFX for the 1st generation (teal R4k based) Indigo2 > puts 8 i860 geometry engines in a desktop machine... Those aren't i860s, they're custom chips. Big ones. Did they implement the i860 architecture? The Extreme video subsystem is really nice. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From evan at snarc.net Thu Dec 23 16:42:18 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 17:42:18 -0500 Subject: Byte magazine is making a comeback In-Reply-To: <280080.16187.qm@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <280080.16187.qm@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D13D04A.6050803@snarc.net> > http://createyournextcustomer.techweb.com/2010/12/byte/ We'll see about that ..... so far they hired one "personality" and they haven't said a single word about how Byte.com will be different from any other gadget site. My guess is they're out of new ideas to be competitive, so they're throwing poop at a wall to see what sticks. From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Dec 23 17:07:13 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 15:07:13 -0800 Subject: Byte magazine is making a comeback In-Reply-To: <4D13D04A.6050803@snarc.net> References: <280080.16187.qm@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4D13D04A.6050803@snarc.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Evan Koblentz > Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 2:42 PM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Byte magazine is making a comeback > > > > http://createyournextcustomer.techweb.com/2010/12/byte/ > > We'll see about that ..... so far they hired one "personality" and they > haven't said a single word about how Byte.com will be different from > any > other gadget site. My guess is they're out of new ideas to be > competitive, so they're throwing poop at a wall to see what sticks. It's such a strange feeling to find myself agreeing with Evan :-) but I can't see anything but an attempt to spray-paint a once venerable name onto a fresh turd. By the time Byte died, it was a mercy killing; as has been stated elsewhere, most of the computer magazines, and Byte in particular, had transmogrified into PC magazines, despite the fact there wasn't that much "there" there. While there has been a lot of conversation as to why - some of it laced with various conspiracy theories - I opine that it's simply that the general marketplace had moved on from the heady early days of computing and, like it or not, publishers need to appeal to that "general marketplace" in order to make money and stay in business. I will acknowledge and embrace one conspiracy theory, namely that the Intel hegemony wiped out a lot of meaningful discourse about computing because, well, if it wasn't x86 it wasn't... happening. (I am so glad to see how ARM processors are creating a competitive marketplace again.) Wired has devolved to being little but a commanding presence in the gadget magazine genre - to the point that I've allowed my subscription to expire, as I don't find their content interesting (or accurate, in many cases, or readable, given their "interesting" typeface and color choices). I really wonder how the folks hoping to "revive" Byte can think they will find a market. -- Ian From evan at snarc.net Thu Dec 23 17:14:42 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 18:14:42 -0500 Subject: Byte magazine is making a comeback In-Reply-To: References: <280080.16187.qm@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4D13D04A.6050803@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4D13D7E2.8010201@snarc.net> > It's such a strange feeling to find myself agreeing with Evan :-) All statistical improbabilities will eventually happen. That's why your boss should invest his billions into developing a real-world Improbability Drive. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Dec 23 18:11:06 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 16:11:06 -0800 Subject: Micro Craft Dimension 68000 Message-ID: <4D13E51A.8070002@bitsavers.org> I've put up some docs and software for this machine today. If someone has the schematic/rom/bios source kit that was available, I'm interested in adding that to the archive as well http://bitsavers.org/pdf/microCraft/ http://bitsavers.org/bits/MicroCraft/ From menadeau at comcast.net Thu Dec 23 18:30:38 2010 From: menadeau at comcast.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 19:30:38 -0500 Subject: Byte magazine is making a comeback References: <280080.16187.qm@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4D13D04A.6050803@snarc.net> Message-ID: > >> http://createyournextcustomer.techweb.com/2010/12/byte/ > > We'll see about that ..... so far they hired one "personality" and they > haven't said a single word about how Byte.com will be different from any > other gadget site. My guess is they're out of new ideas to be competitive, > so they're throwing poop at a wall to see what sticks. That was my first response, but after rereading the press release, they might have an angle that works. The difference between the new BYTE and the gadget publications is that BYTE appears to target only the enterprise market--the people who evaluate and implement new technology in big companies. If they don't just focus on features and do meaningful deep dives not only into the technology, but how it integrates with existing systems, they could offer unique value in the same mold as the old BYTE. That's a big if, but I'm withholding judgment until I see what they produce. From ray at arachelian.com Thu Dec 23 19:27:44 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 20:27:44 -0500 Subject: apple Lisa2. Keypads In-Reply-To: <2F962B08827043D48625681EFF2328F9@vshack> References: <4D0387B0.8080902@arachelian.com> <97D88E62585D4D6D845A0BFEC76D5F15@portajara><262DE34E5261428BAC8C356D1E96A5B8@massey.ac.nz> <4D126B6D.6040608@arachelian.com><446951A77ABB47F8B5AE5083B0C30142@massey.ac.nz> <4D13A67F.1030908@arachelian.com> <2F962B08827043D48625681EFF2328F9@vshack> Message-ID: <4D13F710.3080206@arachelian.com> On 12/23/2010 03:06 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: >> Wow, I've not seen too many Lisa keyboards, but none whose mylar was >> that damaged. Well, let us know how the repair went. > > Yes. I haven't opened the other two but I'm sure I'd be looking at > the same thing. > > Ray, any thoughts of what might cause this deterioration? Would it be > because it's been kept in a humid enviromnent and/or a hot > environment? Or excessive use? Any ideas? Wise ass answer to why anything deteriorates would be entropy. :-) No idea. I would guess, and this is just a guess, that since these materials are a depositing of metal particles on top of plastic, that the bonds wear out over time. Whether that's because of oxidation, or mechanic wear and tear. In this case since almost all of the keys are worn out like that, I would say it's unlikely to be mechanical wear and tear. This is because most people don't use every key on the keyboard with the same frequency. You'd find some keys like the "CLEAR" key on the numpad would be almost never used. So if most of them are totally worn out in that way, it's got to be some chemical process. So that's the beauty of using taped over aluminum foil. It last a hell of a lot longer than mylar. It's unlikely that 10 years from now it would disintegrate like the mylar did. The hardest part is cutting the rounds to be all the same shape/size. Not too hard if you find a plastic tube of the same diameter as the original mylar rounds and use an Xacto-knife (aka- small sharp razor on a pen.) > > I'm tossing up whether or not to buy some replacements or make them. > I know REAL classic computer guys don't BUY replacement Lisa > keypads...they MAKE them. However I can afford it, and am inclined to > go that route. (-: . The ones I'm looking at getting appear in good > condition BUT I don't want to get them only to be faced with the same > problem a few years down the track. Make it yourself, less trouble. And while you're at it, find some foam. I'd replace all foam and mylar in all of the keys in the keyboard. This way you won't have to redo it again for a long time. I'm not exactly sure where you'd be able to get new keypads from anyway. Maybe there's a place that makes these still, I don't know. But once you make one or two replacement keys and verify that they work, repeating the process is very easy. And better yet, if you replace all of the foam now, you won't have some keys that feel mushy and others that feel stiff. Instead, they'll all have the same tactile feel. The keyboard will feel like a new keyboard. Well worth the 1-2 hours of trouble, IMHO. But, just out of curiosity, where exactly would you order keypads from? From brain at jbrain.com Thu Dec 23 19:44:38 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 19:44:38 -0600 Subject: C64/C128 CP/M Cartridge Interest? Message-ID: <4D13FB06.50900@jbrain.com> Would anyone on the list with CP/M or Z80 experience be interested in helping design a CP/M cart for the C64 and C128? I'd like to learn more about CP/M and the Z80, and I thought a revamped cartridge might be a nice way of learning and tying back to my CBM bias. Jim From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Dec 23 20:15:52 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 21:15:52 -0500 Subject: C64/C128 CP/M Cartridge Interest? References: <4D13FB06.50900@jbrain.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Brain" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 8:44 PM Subject: C64/C128 CP/M Cartridge Interest? > Would anyone on the list with CP/M or Z80 experience be interested in > helping design a CP/M cart for the C64 and C128? I'd like to learn more > about CP/M and the Z80, and I thought a revamped cartridge might be a nice > way of learning and tying back to my CBM bias. > > Jim > > The C128 has CP/M capability built in (Z80A 4Mhz), there is a cart for the C64 as well. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Dec 23 21:21:26 2010 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:21:26 +1300 Subject: apple Lisa2. Keypads References: <4D0387B0.8080902@arachelian.com> <97D88E62585D4D6D845A0BFEC76D5F15@portajara><262DE34E5261428BAC8C356D1E96A5B8@massey.ac.nz> <4D126B6D.6040608@arachelian.com><446951A77ABB47F8B5AE5083B0C30142@massey.ac.nz> <4D13A67F.1030908@arachelian.com><2F962B08827043D48625681EFF2328F9@vshack> <4D13F710.3080206@arachelian.com> Message-ID: > But, just out of curiosity, where exactly would you order keypads from? > Erik's marketplace right here http://marketplace.vintage-computer.com/auction_details.php?name=Replacement-Sol20-and-others-Keyboard-Foam-Pads&auction_id=108819 They would need shipping to New Zealand which would add to the cost. Also I have THREE keyboards I'd like to repair not just one. Hmmm...ok, your letter has convinced me. It SEEMS easy enough, and it's not like this has to be done immediately. I can snatch a few hours here and there as time allows. However I'm sure it will take me more than an afternoon or two so I'm not convinced it's "less trouble" (-: . More satisfying and permenant in the end though maybe. I'd certainly replace the foam as most of it is degraded really badly. At work we have some largish corkborers for punching out agar plugs. One of these MIGHT just be a suitable size, which should make the process a lot easier. I'll let you know how it goes. I'l probably get onto it in Mid-January after the holiday season. I've a few family commitments before then. Much obliged for the advice. Terry From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Dec 23 21:27:23 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 19:27:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: C64/C128 CP/M Cartridge Interest? In-Reply-To: from Teo Zenios at "Dec 23, 10 09:15:52 pm" Message-ID: <201012240327.oBO3ROuE020438@floodgap.com> > > Would anyone on the list with CP/M or Z80 experience be interested in > > helping design a CP/M cart for the C64 and C128? I'd like to learn more > > about CP/M and the Z80, and I thought a revamped cartridge might be a nice > > way of learning and tying back to my CBM bias. > > The C128 has CP/M capability built in (Z80A 4Mhz), there is a cart for the > C64 as well. I'm quite sure Jim is aware of that :) However, the C64 CP/M cart was notoriously flaky and could only run 2.2. It would be interesting to see if a later design could do more. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Remember, kids: for great justice take off every zig! ---------------------- From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Dec 23 21:28:17 2010 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:28:17 +1300 Subject: Xmas Kaypro 4 References: <4D0387B0.8080902@arachelian.com> <97D88E62585D4D6D845A0BFEC76D5F15@portajara><262DE34E5261428BAC8C356D1E96A5B8@massey.ac.nz> <4D126B6D.6040608@arachelian.com><446951A77ABB47F8B5AE5083B0C30142@massey.ac.nz><4D13A67F.1030908@arachelian.com> <2F962B08827043D48625681EFF2328F9@vshack> Message-ID: Getting off the subject of Lisa's for the moment, Santa gave me a early birthday present in the beginning of the week. See http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2010-12-20-kaypro4.htm It's late Xmas eve here in NZ. My two daughters have flown home to spend Xmas with Annette and I, and I'm looking forward to tomorrow. We have Xmas in mid-summer of course, so it's salads and perhaps a BBQ in the evening. I'd like to wish all those on this list all the best for the holiday seasons! Terry From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Dec 23 21:47:06 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 22:47:06 -0500 Subject: C64/C128 CP/M Cartridge Interest? References: <201012240327.oBO3ROuE020438@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <57779CE227E849B89908C5653C1582BA@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 10:27 PM Subject: Re: C64/C128 CP/M Cartridge Interest? >> > Would anyone on the list with CP/M or Z80 experience be interested in >> > helping design a CP/M cart for the C64 and C128? I'd like to learn >> > more >> > about CP/M and the Z80, and I thought a revamped cartridge might be a >> > nice >> > way of learning and tying back to my CBM bias. >> >> The C128 has CP/M capability built in (Z80A 4Mhz), there is a cart for >> the >> C64 as well. > > I'm quite sure Jim is aware of that :) > > However, the C64 CP/M cart was notoriously flaky and could only run 2.2. > It > would be interesting to see if a later design could do more. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: > http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Remember, kids: for great justice take off every > zig! ---------------------- > Well CP/M even on the 128 suffered from slow hardware designs. I guess if you want to make a whole (RAM included) CP/M cart it would be better then what is out there now. Would the cart have to be paired with a 1571 to read other CP/M disks? From brain at jbrain.com Thu Dec 23 21:47:23 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 21:47:23 -0600 Subject: C64/C128 CP/M Cartridge Interest? In-Reply-To: References: <4D13FB06.50900@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4D1417CB.4050807@jbrain.com> On 12/23/2010 8:15 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Brain" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 8:44 PM > Subject: C64/C128 CP/M Cartridge Interest? > > >> Would anyone on the list with CP/M or Z80 experience be interested in >> helping design a CP/M cart for the C64 and C128? I'd like to learn >> more about CP/M and the Z80, and I thought a revamped cartridge might >> be a nice way of learning and tying back to my CBM bias. >> >> Jim >> >> > > The C128 has CP/M capability built in (Z80A 4Mhz), there is a cart for > the C64 as well. Having been involved with Commodore computers for many years, I not only own both the C64 CP/M cart but also both the CP/M capable C128 and it's brother, the C128D. Providing more detail to my original request: The Commodore 64 CP/M cart is woefully designed, and only works on the earliest revisions of the C64. It is a clone of the Apple-II CP/M cart, done hastily and incorrectly. The C128 CP/M support is robust, but slow. Due to the nature of the design, the Z80 in the C128 runs at 2MHz (4MHz cycle, but every other cycle is stretched for 3 cycles). As such, I would like to investigate the ability to design a newer CP/M cartridge that will work with both the C64 and the C128, runs much faster than either the CP/M cartridge of the internal Z80. It could be simply an exercise in academics, but I thought I would at least inquire if others had any interest. The items I feel are interesting about such a design: * The ability to use the C64/C128 as a second processor to handle IO. * The ability to tri-state the Z80 and stop the clock, to allow the 64/128 to process a "message" created by the Z80 environment. This would provide valuable information on how to interface a second processor to the C64 bus. * The ability to design a unit that could not only function as an add-on for the CBM line, but also function as a standalone unit. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com www.jbrain.net (eStore) From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Thu Dec 23 22:46:06 2010 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 15:16:06 +1030 Subject: C64/C128 CP/M Cartridge Interest? In-Reply-To: <4D1417CB.4050807@jbrain.com> References: <4D13FB06.50900@jbrain.com> <4D1417CB.4050807@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <1293165966.9148.19.camel@fubar.kaput.homeunix.org> On Thu, 2010-12-23 at 21:47 -0600, Jim Brain wrote: > As such, I would like to investigate the ability to design a newer > CP/M cartridge that will work with both the C64 and the C128, runs > much faster than either the CP/M cartridge of the internal Z80. It > could be simply an exercise in academics, but I thought I would at > least inquire if others had any interest. The items I feel are > interesting about such a design: > > * The ability to use the C64/C128 as a second processor to handle > IO. > * The ability to tri-state the Z80 and stop the clock, to allow > the > 64/128 to process a "message" created by the Z80 environment. > This would provide valuable information on how to interface a > second processor to the C64 bus. > * The ability to design a unit that could not only function as an > add-on for the CBM line, but also function as a standalone unit. > > > Jim You might not even need to stop the Z80 at all. If it had its own memory, you could tack on a register file to communicate between the Commodore and the Z80 (say some 74LS670's), with an interrupts mechanism to indicate a new message. This might even allow the Commodore half to be reset, leaving the Z80 alone, so you could drop back into C64 mode and reconnect to the Z80 later. Alexis. From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Dec 23 23:10:14 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 00:10:14 -0500 Subject: Alpha Micro... In-Reply-To: <1293165966.9148.19.camel@fubar.kaput.homeunix.org> References: <4D13FB06.50900@jbrain.com> <4D1417CB.4050807@jbrain.com> <1293165966.9148.19.camel@fubar.kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: <4D142B36.2020200@atarimuseum.com> I remember someone on the list saying they needed an Alpha Micro. There is a nice looking unit up on Ebay, located in California for $125... great looking system... Curt From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Dec 23 23:10:58 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 00:10:58 -0500 Subject: Alpha Micro - the URL link In-Reply-To: <1293165966.9148.19.camel@fubar.kaput.homeunix.org> References: <4D13FB06.50900@jbrain.com> <4D1417CB.4050807@jbrain.com> <1293165966.9148.19.camel@fubar.kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: <4D142B62.8090505@atarimuseum.com> Sorry, the link didn't paste into the last email, here it is: http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Alpha-Micro-S-100-68000-Server-AM-1072-VCR-i-o-/320631229410?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4aa71c4be2 Curt From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Dec 23 23:13:14 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 21:13:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Alpha Micro... In-Reply-To: <4D142B36.2020200@atarimuseum.com> from "Curt @ Atari Museum" at "Dec 24, 10 00:10:14 am" Message-ID: <201012240513.oBO5DFPv020392@floodgap.com> > I remember someone on the list saying they needed an Alpha Micro. > > There is a nice looking unit up on Ebay, located in California for > $125... great looking system... Alas, won't help that guy. He's looking for a relatively late model '030. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- You can't kill me because I've got magic aaargh. -- Terry Pratchett -------- From jdbryan at acm.org Thu Dec 23 23:16:10 2010 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 00:16:10 -0500 Subject: HP 10276A LSI-11 Logic Analyzer Probe Interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wednesday, December 22, 2010 at 13:42, Glen Slick wrote: > Any chance anyone on this list has a manual for the 10276A? I have a 10278A, which is the equivalent logic analyzer interface for the HP 1000. I'd be happy to send you a PDF of the manual for that card, which although not directly applicable, may help you to understand the circuitry of the 10276A. Contact me off list if you want it. The HP 64000 preprocessor sales brochure 5953-9222 at Bitsavers briefly describes the 10276A on page 7. -- Dave From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Dec 23 23:20:32 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 00:20:32 -0500 Subject: Alpha Micro... In-Reply-To: <201012240513.oBO5DFPv020392@floodgap.com> References: <201012240513.oBO5DFPv020392@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4D142DA0.4070503@atarimuseum.com> Sorry... thought it might help, still a damned nice machine... I did some work here and there on some AM's back in the 80's and 90's and they were all the smaller Altair/Imsai sized units, never seen one that big before, cool machine and the price is pretty darned good... Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I remember someone on the list saying they needed an Alpha Micro. >> >> There is a nice looking unit up on Ebay, located in California for >> $125... great looking system... >> > > Alas, won't help that guy. He's looking for a relatively late model '030. > > From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Dec 23 23:24:10 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 21:24:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Alpha Micro... In-Reply-To: <4D142DA0.4070503@atarimuseum.com> from "Curt @ Atari Museum" at "Dec 24, 10 00:20:32 am" Message-ID: <201012240524.oBO5OBFf020354@floodgap.com> > Sorry... thought it might help, still a damned nice machine... I did > some work here and there on some AM's back in the 80's and 90's and they > were all the smaller Altair/Imsai sized units, never seen one that big > before, cool machine and the price is pretty darned good... No, it is nice looking, I agree. However, it's missing its boot drive and getting AMOS on it will be a little sticky. It does at least have the VCR interface, and Alpha Micro does still sell AMOS on VHS tape, so it's possible for someone enterprising. Myself, I like the later Eagles. My Eagle 300 is set up as a web server: http://ampm.floodgap.com/ -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Excellent guess, Kreskin. Wrong, but excellent. -- Space Quest 6 ----------- From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Dec 23 23:26:05 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 21:26:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Alpha Micro... In-Reply-To: <201012240524.oBO5OBFf020354@floodgap.com> from Cameron Kaiser at "Dec 23, 10 09:24:10 pm" Message-ID: <201012240526.oBO5Q5Ia020230@floodgap.com> > > Sorry... thought it might help, still a damned nice machine... I did > > some work here and there on some AM's back in the 80's and 90's and they > > were all the smaller Altair/Imsai sized units, never seen one that big > > before, cool machine and the price is pretty darned good... > > No, it is nice looking, I agree. However, it's missing its boot drive and > getting AMOS on it will be a little sticky. It does at least have the VCR > interface, and Alpha Micro does still sell AMOS on VHS tape, so it's possible > for someone enterprising. > > Myself, I like the later Eagles. My Eagle 300 is set up as a web server: > > http://ampm.floodgap.com/ Oops, I forgot to boot it back up before I left to visit the folks. Well, it'll be up after Christmas. *sheepish* -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Chaos reigns within/Reflect, repent and reboot;/Order shall return. -------- From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Fri Dec 24 02:41:09 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 08:41:09 -0000 Subject: Using a Variac to revive power supplies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I know it's obvious but a Variac is AC out. It's capable of 2.2KVA! You would be relying on the old PSU's transformer and rectifier circuits to generate the reform voltage. DC from a bench PSU across an isolated capacitor via a limiting resistor is probably a better option. As many switchmode PSU's are automatic dual voltage. Usually 110v to 240v They might be OK to run from the Variac. Otherwise probably not. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tobias Russell Sent: 23 December 2010 14:12 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Using a Variac to revive power supplies I've recently acquired a Variac (220V 10A) and was wondering what the collectives views are on using them to revive long dormant power supplies. Previously I have removed the electrolytics and reformed them with a bench power supply setup, slowly ramping up the voltage (as per http://www.vcomp.co.uk/tech_tips/reform_caps/reform_caps.htm). Am I right in thinking I can use the Variac to effectively reform the capacitors in circuit? I'm currently rebuilding one of my PDP-8/E's which has a linear PSU which I believe is ok, but will it also work with later DEC switchmode PSUs? All the best, Toby From js at cimmeri.com Fri Dec 24 09:13:18 2010 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 10:13:18 -0500 Subject: Using a Variac to revive power supplies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D14B88E.8050304@cimmeri.com> Subject: Re: Using a Variac to revive power supplies From: Tobias Russell Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 19:06:04 +0000 To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Ok, I suspected as much. So for a linear supply such as the 8/E's is a Variac a valid way to go or should I reform the capacitors individually as I've done previously? All the best, Toby ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Toby, I've found that removing every single electrolytic and reforming to full (or 10% over) capacity provides the best results. The Variac method -- while better than nothing -- doesn't limit your current... plus doesn't reform all caps to full capacity, nor tell you anything about their condition and leakage. 1. Remove cap. 2. Check ESR. If ok then.. 3. Reform with resistor and variable power supply while monitoring current... raise input voltage slowly to keep max current to no more than 1ma. Let current settle down every so often to check for leakage rates at various voltages... One method I use is halves... start out at 50% rated voltage, let settle, then 75%, settle, then 87%, 95, 100.... Checking leakage at each stage like this gives you an idea of cap condition.. so you can decide whether to replace or not. 4. Check ESR again. 5. Check capacity. 6. If capacity is within 10% of spec, ESR is what it should be, and your leakage rates are acceptable, then you're good to reinstall. Otherwise, replace! - John Singleton From ray at arachelian.com Fri Dec 24 09:58:32 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 10:58:32 -0500 Subject: apple Lisa2. Keypads In-Reply-To: References: <4D0387B0.8080902@arachelian.com> <97D88E62585D4D6D845A0BFEC76D5F15@portajara><262DE34E5261428BAC8C356D1E96A5B8@massey.ac.nz> <4D126B6D.6040608@arachelian.com><446951A77ABB47F8B5AE5083B0C30142@massey.ac.nz> <4D13A67F.1030908@arachelian.com><2F962B08827043D48625681EFF2328F9@vshack> <4D13F710.3080206@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4D14C328.4080403@arachelian.com> On 12/23/2010 10:21 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: >> But, just out of curiosity, where exactly would you order keypads from? >> > > Erik's marketplace right here > > http://marketplace.vintage-computer.com/auction_details.php?name=Replacement-Sol20-and-others-Keyboard-Foam-Pads&auction_id=108819 > > > They would need shipping to New Zealand which would add to the cost. > Also I have THREE keyboards I'd like to repair not just one. Oh, I see, these are pulls from another old keyboard. Too bad. > > Hmmm...ok, your letter has convinced me. It SEEMS easy enough, and > it's not like this has to be done immediately. I can snatch a few > hours here and there as time allows. However I'm sure it will take me > more than an afternoon or two so I'm not convinced it's "less trouble" > (-: . More satisfying and permenant in the end though maybe. I'd > certainly replace the foam as most of it is degraded really badly. I suppose if you could build some sort of circular cutting device that has the right diameter, it would go a lot easier, but that seems difficult. You'd need to find a metal tube of the right size and sharpen it to a blade, then rotate it against foam glued to a mylar/taped aluminum foil layer. (Or against foam/taped aluminum separately and then glue.) I suppose mylar balloons might work if flattened and glued to a thin stiff piece of plastic also? > > At work we have some largish corkborers for punching out agar plugs. > One of these MIGHT just be a suitable size, which should make the > process a lot easier. That would work. Perhaps there's some dremel bit sets that would include this kind of cutting tool? I did find a round cutting bit in my collection, but it's specially made to cut round holes in doors for locks. Way too big. But if you can find the right sized tool, or make the right sized tool it would work. I did mine all by hand with an Xacto blade, which is a bit boring and makes for rough work. In some cases the geometry of the aluminum rounds failed to work, etc. But if there was a tool to get them all to be the same shape/size, it would work much better. http://www.amazon.com/Fiskars-93807097-Circle-Cutter-Replacement/dp/B0006HUJ0S/ Something like the above might work, but I'm not sure about the diameter - the 1" minimum this thing does is too big. Hmmm, perhaps cutting a tin soup can, then sharpening the edges with a file and curling it on itself until it's the right diameter on the sharp end, but makes a funnel on the other end, then attaching the funnel end into a wooden handle could make the right tool. Problem is the edge would need to be sharp and that kind of metal is a bit too soft. > > I'll let you know how it goes. I'l probably get onto it in > Mid-January after the holiday season. I've a few family commitments > before then. > > Much obliged for the advice. Sure, anytime. If you do find a tool, or are able to make one, let me know the details of what worked so I can add it to the FAQ. > > Terry > From pneubauer at bluerwhite.org Fri Dec 24 10:08:19 2010 From: pneubauer at bluerwhite.org (Peter Neubauer) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 10:08:19 -0600 Subject: Bob Bishop, Apple R&D co-founder, speaking at KansasFest Message-ID: <03F3EED7-11FC-4C5F-8927-1C0552A0EC9A@bluerwhite.org> KANSAS CITY, MO -- December 17, 2010 -- Bob Bishop, co-founder of Apple's R&D lab, will be the keynote speaker at KansasFest 2011. Bob is part of the early history of the Apple computer and has developed numerous commercial software titles, worked side-by-side with Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak, written a book on assembly language programming, and published articles in most Apple II magazines. Bob has lived what most of us only dream about, and he has the stories to prove it. In 1976, Dr. Bishop knocked on Steve Jobs' door and ended up owning an Apple I. Soon, he bought one of the first Apple II computers. A few months later, the first graphical Apple II games, like Rocket Pilot and Star Wars, came from Bob's keyboard before Apple had even finished the documentation. Later, Bob brought speech to the personal computer with Apple-Talker and Apple-Listener. In 1978, Bob and Steve Wozniak founded Apple's research and development division. His program Apple-Vision was included on DOS 3.3 master disks, demonstrating the audio and video capabilities of the Apple II. Even after retiring in 1981, he continued using, programming, and writing about the entire Apple II line. The stories do not end with the Apple II. Bob has hosted a radio show using the "Mr. Logic" personality, written essays, founded a comic book club, designed a computer programming language, and written online riddles. Alas, Bob has not yet founded the fanciful "Subroutine Shack" stores "for supplying software components." Today, he lives in California, still "plays with computers," and laments that his Web site is forever under construction. KansasFest 2011, the 22nd annual Apple II conference, is set for July 19th through July 24th at Rockhurst University in Kansas City, Missouri. KansasFest was originally hosted by Resource Central and has been brought to you by the KFest Committee since 1995. Any and all Apple II users, fans, and friends are invited to attend this year's event. Registration details will be announced on the KansasFest Web site in early 2011. For photos, schedules, and presentations from past year's events, please visit the event's official Web site at http://www.kansasfest.org/. CONTACT: KansasFest 2011 http://www.kansasfest.org/ http://twitter.com/kansasfest/ From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Fri Dec 24 10:21:28 2010 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 11:21:28 -0500 Subject: Byte magazine is making a comeback In-Reply-To: References: <280080.16187.qm@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4D13D04A.6050803@snarc.net> Message-ID: Frankly, this seems like a rather cynical use of the Byte name. I'd much rather see some sort of deal to make the contents of the REAL Byte magazine available online (rather like the deal that Google seems to have to make old InfoWorlds available) than some new website aimed at CTOs on a budget. From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Fri Dec 24 11:01:03 2010 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 09:01:03 -0800 Subject: apple Lisa2. Keypads In-Reply-To: <4D14C328.4080403@arachelian.com> References: <4D0387B0.8080902@arachelian.com> <97D88E62585D4D6D845A0BFEC76D5F15@portajara><262DE34E5261428BAC8C356D1E96A5B8@massey.ac.nz> <4D126B6D.6040608@arachelian.com><446951A77ABB47F8B5AE5083B0C30142@massey.ac.nz> <4D13A67F.1030908@arachelian.com><2F962B08827043D48625681EFF2328F9@vshack> <4D13F710.3080206@arachelian.com> <4D14C328.4080403@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <027801cba38c$27b78a80$77269f80$@com> On Friday, December 24, 2010 7:59 AM Ray Arachelian wrote: > Oh, I see, these are pulls from another old keyboard. Too bad. Yep, those are pulls from older but not-as-old-as-vintage keyboards. Mid-90s, typically. The foam seems to be a better composition so hopefully it'll last longer. What usually happens is that the foam degrades and the residue ruins the Mylar. Regardless the "used" stuff probably has at least 20 years left relative to the foams its replacing. Hopefully lots more. I've used it to revive two Sol-20s and have some stashed for my Lisas, Compaq and two or three others when I get to them. The DIY approach is a good one since we'll all need it someday. I've heard of folks using Mylar from anti-static bags to do the one end and overhead projector transparencies to do the other. The trick, then, is finding a foam for the middle that is the right consistency, thickness and composition to work and last. And, of course, cutting the circles properly. Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage Computer Forums marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage Computer and Gaming Marketplace > > Hmmm...ok, your letter has convinced me. It SEEMS easy enough, and > it's not like this has to be done immediately. I can snatch a few > hours here and there as time allows. However I'm sure it will take me > more than an afternoon or two so I'm not convinced it's "less trouble" > (-: . More satisfying and permenant in the end though maybe. I'd > certainly replace the foam as most of it is degraded really badly. I suppose if you could build some sort of circular cutting device that has the right diameter, it would go a lot easier, but that seems difficult. You'd need to find a metal tube of the right size and sharpen it to a blade, then rotate it against foam glued to a mylar/taped aluminum foil layer. (Or against foam/taped aluminum separately and then glue.) I suppose mylar balloons might work if flattened and glued to a thin stiff piece of plastic also? > > At work we have some largish corkborers for punching out agar plugs. > One of these MIGHT just be a suitable size, which should make the > process a lot easier. That would work. Perhaps there's some dremel bit sets that would include this kind of cutting tool? I did find a round cutting bit in my collection, but it's specially made to cut round holes in doors for locks. Way too big. But if you can find the right sized tool, or make the right sized tool it would work. I did mine all by hand with an Xacto blade, which is a bit boring and makes for rough work. In some cases the geometry of the aluminum rounds failed to work, etc. But if there was a tool to get them all to be the same shape/size, it would work much better. http://www.amazon.com/Fiskars-93807097-Circle-Cutter-Replacement/dp/B0006HUJ 0S/ Something like the above might work, but I'm not sure about the diameter - the 1" minimum this thing does is too big. Hmmm, perhaps cutting a tin soup can, then sharpening the edges with a file and curling it on itself until it's the right diameter on the sharp end, but makes a funnel on the other end, then attaching the funnel end into a wooden handle could make the right tool. Problem is the edge would need to be sharp and that kind of metal is a bit too soft. > > I'll let you know how it goes. I'l probably get onto it in > Mid-January after the holiday season. I've a few family commitments > before then. > > Much obliged for the advice. Sure, anytime. If you do find a tool, or are able to make one, let me know the details of what worked so I can add it to the FAQ. > > Terry > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Dec 24 13:07:25 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 11:07:25 -0800 Subject: Using a Variac to revive power supplies In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Hi Still the light bulb in series is a good safety measure. The main disadvantage of the variac method, even with the light bulb, is that one can't monitor the leakage current of the capacitors. Dwight > From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Using a Variac to revive power supplies > Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 08:41:09 +0000 > > > I know it's obvious but a Variac is AC out. It's capable of 2.2KVA! You > would be relying on the old PSU's transformer and rectifier circuits to > generate the reform voltage. > > DC from a bench PSU across an isolated capacitor via a limiting resistor is > probably a better option. > > As many switchmode PSU's are automatic dual voltage. Usually 110v to 240v > They might be OK to run from the Variac. Otherwise probably not. > > Regards > > Rod Smallwood > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Tobias Russell > Sent: 23 December 2010 14:12 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Using a Variac to revive power supplies > > I've recently acquired a Variac (220V 10A) and was wondering what the > collectives views are on using them to revive long dormant power supplies. > > Previously I have removed the electrolytics and reformed them with a bench > power supply setup, slowly ramping up the voltage (as per > http://www.vcomp.co.uk/tech_tips/reform_caps/reform_caps.htm). Am I right in > thinking I can use the Variac to effectively reform the capacitors in > circuit? > > I'm currently rebuilding one of my PDP-8/E's which has a linear PSU which I > believe is ok, but will it also work with later DEC switchmode PSUs? > > All the best, > Toby > From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Dec 24 13:34:07 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 11:34:07 -0800 Subject: C64/C128 CP/M Cartridge Interest? In-Reply-To: <57779CE227E849B89908C5653C1582BA@dell8300> References: <201012240327.oBO3ROuE020438@floodgap.com> <57779CE227E849B89908C5653C1582BA@dell8300> Message-ID: <4D14F5AF.2030901@brouhaha.com> Teo Zenios wrote: > > Well CP/M even on the 128 suffered from slow hardware designs. I guess > if you want to make a whole (RAM included) CP/M cart it would be > better then what is out there now. Would the cart have to be paired > with a 1571 to read other CP/M disks? Or you could leave out the Commodore interface entirely, and have something that would be useful to even more people. :-) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Dec 24 13:46:15 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 17:46:15 -0200 Subject: C64/C128 CP/M Cartridge Interest? References: <201012240327.oBO3ROuE020438@floodgap.com><57779CE227E849B89908C5653C1582BA@dell8300> <4D14F5AF.2030901@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Or you could leave out the Commodore interface entirely, and have > something that would be useful to even more people. :-) Or use the C64 as a terminal :) From shumaker at att.net Fri Dec 24 14:14:59 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 12:14:59 -0800 Subject: apple Lisa2. Keypads In-Reply-To: <4D14C328.4080403@arachelian.com> References: <4D0387B0.8080902@arachelian.com> <97D88E62585D4D6D845A0BFEC76D5F15@portajara><262DE34E5261428BAC8C356D1E96A5B8@massey.ac.nz> <4D126B6D.6040608@arachelian.com><446951A77ABB47F8B5AE5083B0C30142@massey.ac.nz> <4D13A67F.1030908@arachelian.com><2F962B08827043D48625681EFF2328F9@vshack> <4D13F710.3080206@arachelian.com> <4D14C328.4080403@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4D14FF43.5060105@att.net> does anyone have an actual measured diameter of the pad available? steve On 12/24/2010 7:58 AM, Ray Arachelian wrote: > On 12/23/2010 10:21 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > >>> But, just out of curiosity, where exactly would you order keypads from? >>> >>> >> Erik's marketplace right here >> >> http://marketplace.vintage-computer.com/auction_details.php?name=Replacement-Sol20-and-others-Keyboard-Foam-Pads&auction_id=108819 >> >> >> They would need shipping to New Zealand which would add to the cost. >> Also I have THREE keyboards I'd like to repair not just one. >> > Oh, I see, these are pulls from another old keyboard. Too bad. > > >> Hmmm...ok, your letter has convinced me. It SEEMS easy enough, and >> it's not like this has to be done immediately. I can snatch a few >> hours here and there as time allows. However I'm sure it will take me >> more than an afternoon or two so I'm not convinced it's "less trouble" >> (-: . More satisfying and permenant in the end though maybe. I'd >> certainly replace the foam as most of it is degraded really badly. >> > I suppose if you could build some sort of circular cutting device that > has the right diameter, it would go a lot easier, but that seems > difficult. You'd need to find a metal tube of the right size and > sharpen it to a blade, then rotate it against foam glued to a > mylar/taped aluminum foil layer. (Or against foam/taped aluminum > separately and then glue.) > > I suppose mylar balloons might work if flattened and glued to a thin > stiff piece of plastic also? > > >> At work we have some largish corkborers for punching out agar plugs. >> One of these MIGHT just be a suitable size, which should make the >> process a lot easier. >> > That would work. Perhaps there's some dremel bit sets that would > include this kind of cutting tool? I did find a round cutting bit in my > collection, but it's specially made to cut round holes in doors for > locks. Way too big. But if you can find the right sized tool, or make > the right sized tool it would work. I did mine all by hand with an > Xacto blade, which is a bit boring and makes for rough work. In some > cases the geometry of the aluminum rounds failed to work, etc. But if > there was a tool to get them all to be the same shape/size, it would > work much better. > > http://www.amazon.com/Fiskars-93807097-Circle-Cutter-Replacement/dp/B0006HUJ0S/ > > Something like the above might work, but I'm not sure about the diameter > - the 1" minimum this thing does is too big. > > Hmmm, perhaps cutting a tin soup can, then sharpening the edges with a > file and curling it on itself until it's the right diameter on the sharp > end, but makes a funnel on the other end, then attaching the funnel end > into a wooden handle could make the right tool. Problem is the edge > would need to be sharp and that kind of metal is a bit too soft. > > >> I'll let you know how it goes. I'l probably get onto it in >> Mid-January after the holiday season. I've a few family commitments >> before then. >> >> Much obliged for the advice. >> > Sure, anytime. If you do find a tool, or are able to make one, let me > know the details of what worked so I can add it to the FAQ. > > >> Terry >> >> > > From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Dec 24 14:37:18 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 15:37:18 -0500 Subject: C64/C128 CP/M Cartridge Interest? References: <201012240327.oBO3ROuE020438@floodgap.com><57779CE227E849B89908C5653C1582BA@dell8300> <4D14F5AF.2030901@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <776F79ADFCC44503B0E929B17AEF4CF3@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Smith" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 2:34 PM Subject: Re: C64/C128 CP/M Cartridge Interest? > Teo Zenios wrote: >> >> Well CP/M even on the 128 suffered from slow hardware designs. I guess if >> you want to make a whole (RAM included) CP/M cart it would be better then >> what is out there now. Would the cart have to be paired with a 1571 to >> read other CP/M disks? > > Or you could leave out the Commodore interface entirely, and have > something that would be useful to even more people. :-) > I wouldn't mind a CP/M standalone if it was cheap. Most of the CP/M machines of the era are either recycled or need some repairs by now. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Dec 24 14:49:44 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 18:49:44 -0200 Subject: C64/C128 CP/M Cartridge Interest? References: <201012240327.oBO3ROuE020438@floodgap.com><57779CE227E849B89908C5653C1582BA@dell8300><4D14F5AF.2030901@brouhaha.com> <776F79ADFCC44503B0E929B17AEF4CF3@dell8300> Message-ID: <4226399D87014BB385D655952390F8C8@portajara> > I wouldn't mind a CP/M standalone if it was cheap. Most of the CP/M > machines > of the era are either recycled or need some repairs by now. THAT is such a great idea! ;oD I'm doing something in these molds, but still too in early state to talk. Tip: What about rebuild a TRS-80 computer and run CPM on that? My keyboardbobulator can be the ps2-to-trs interface, and the output circuit can be modified to drive a vga monitor or LCD. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 24 15:26:17 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:26:17 -0500 Subject: C64/C128 CP/M Cartridge Interest? In-Reply-To: <776F79ADFCC44503B0E929B17AEF4CF3@dell8300> References: <201012240327.oBO3ROuE020438@floodgap.com><57779CE227E849B89908C5653C1582BA@dell8300> <4D14F5AF.2030901@brouhaha.com> <776F79ADFCC44503B0E929B17AEF4CF3@dell8300> Message-ID: <4D150FF9.90900@neurotica.com> On 12/24/10 3:37 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > I wouldn't mind a CP/M standalone if it was cheap. Most of the CP/M > machines of the era are either recycled or need some repairs by now. N8VEM is a really nice machine.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From brain at jbrain.com Fri Dec 24 15:33:34 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 15:33:34 -0600 Subject: C64/C128 CP/M Cartridge Interest? In-Reply-To: <4D14F5AF.2030901@brouhaha.com> References: <201012240327.oBO3ROuE020438@floodgap.com> <57779CE227E849B89908C5653C1582BA@dell8300> <4D14F5AF.2030901@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4D1511AE.5030804@jbrain.com> On 12/24/2010 1:34 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Teo Zenios wrote: >> >> Well CP/M even on the 128 suffered from slow hardware designs. I >> guess if you want to make a whole (RAM included) CP/M cart it would >> be better then what is out there now. Would the cart have to be >> paired with a 1571 to read other CP/M disks? > > Or you could leave out the Commodore interface entirely, and have > something that would be useful to even more people. :-) Well, as noted in my previous email: * The ability to design a unit that could not only function as an add-on for the CBM line, but also function as a standalone unit. I don't want to leave off the Commodore interface, but I wasn't thinking it would be that intrusive. In my mind, Commodore compatibility would only require the inclusion of the CBM expansion port (from an external point of view). The CPLD/FPGA that would handle gluing things together would be there regardless of standalone or tethered, and the ROM would be there anyway to hold a standalone BDOS (I think that's the name). That's why I suggested a dual purpose board. I thought a USB connector would handle external interfacing well (external drive, RS232 connection for terminal, or KB and maybe there's a USB video option, dunno). Since a CBM cartridge is 3" by 2.5", I thought non CBM folks on this list might be interested in a 6 sq in CP/M machine, and the 22/44 pin connector on the edge of the board could be repurposed as a interface of sorts, or I could possibly put a .050" pitch 50/100 connector on the other end of the board, for a true S100 bus interface, though that's a bit above my knowledge level at this time. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com www.jbrain.net (eStore) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Dec 24 15:39:47 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 19:39:47 -0200 Subject: C64/C128 CP/M Cartridge Interest? References: <201012240327.oBO3ROuE020438@floodgap.com><57779CE227E849B89908C5653C1582BA@dell8300><4D14F5AF.2030901@brouhaha.com> <776F79ADFCC44503B0E929B17AEF4CF3@dell8300> Message-ID: <5592579F012642C0925E04491D485E00@portajara> > I wouldn't mind a CP/M standalone if it was cheap. Most of the CP/M > machines of the era are either recycled or need some repairs by now. http://pacedev.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=24&d=1290985715 Photo of a TRS80 sinthesized on FPGA running LDOS onto a VGA monitor Free sources :D From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Dec 24 15:56:22 2010 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 13:56:22 -0800 Subject: HP 10276A LSI-11 Logic Analyzer Probe Interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 1:42 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > > I just picked up an HP 10276A LSI-11 logic analyzer problem interface > off of eBay. ?It was listed simply as a 10269C but it looked like the > attached card was a Q-Bus card so I bought it and it turned out to be > an HP 10276A. > > I can't find any information about the 10276A on the net. ?Any chance > anyone on this list has a manual for the 10276A? > > I posted some photos of the 10276A card here: > http://sites.google.com/site/glensvintagecomputerinfo/ > Lacking a manual for the 10276A LSI-11 Interface I made some progress tracing the Q-Bus signals from the card edge fingers of the 10276A through the N8T380N Quad Bus Receivers to the ribbon cable connectors, and then through the 10320C User Definable Interface wire-wrap wiring to the 10269C logic analyzer POD connectors. In addition to the Q-Bus signal outputs of the bus receivers the interface also provides registered versions of BDAL0 - BDAL17 via (2x) 74LS273 and (1x) 74S74 which are clocked on BSYNC. The interface provides unregistered versions of BDAL18 - BDAL21 but does not provide registered versions. Maybe the interface was not designed to fully support 22-bit addressing. If I get around to trying to do anything useful with the interface maybe I'll look at grafting a 74LS175 onto the interface to provide registered versions of BDAL18 - BDAL21 as well. I haven't finished tracing through the logic analyzer state clock generation circuit yet. There are four slide switches to selectively enable/disable generating logic analyzer state clocks on DMA cycles, refresh cycles, read, write, or read-write cycles, and interrupt cycles. One thing that puzzles me is that I can find no connection between the 10276A LSI-11 Interface signal ground inside the 10320C User Definable Interface wire-wrap wiring to the 10269C logic analyzer POD connector signal grounds. I don't see how that would work. Could there be an assumption here that there would be a ground loop between the Q-Bus chassis earth ground and the logic analyzer mainframe earth ground? Just in case anyone is curious here is the signal list that I traced from the 10276A LSI-11 Interface through to the 10269C logic analyzer POD connectors. BIRQ 7 JA-1 POD4-3 GND JA-2 BIRQ 6 JA-3 POD4-2 JA-4 BIRQ 5 JA-5 POD4-1 BRPLY JA-6 POD3-10 BDOUT JA-7 POD3-9 BDIN JA-8 POD3-8 JA-9 BSYNC JA-10 POD3-7 JA-11 BIRQ 4 JA-12 POD4-0 JA-13 BIAKI JA-14 POD4-4 GND JA-15 BDMR JA-16 POD3-13 JA-17 BDMGI JA-18 POD3-14 BREF JA-19 POD3-12 JA-20 SSPARE 4 JA-21 GND JA-22 BDAL 21 JA-23 POD3-5 BDAL 16 REG JA-24 POD3-0 BDAL 20 JA-25 POD3-4 BDAL 19 JA-26 POD3-3 JA-27 BDAL 17 REG JA-28 POD3-1 BDAL 18 JA-29 POD3-2 BDCOK L JA-30 SSPARE 3 JA-31 BPOK L JA-32 SSPARE 2 JA-33 SSPARE 1 JA-34 BHALT JA-35 BSACK JA-36 POD3-11 JA-37 BEVNT JA-38 BWTBT JA-39 POD3-15 BBS 7 JA-40 POD3-6 BDAL 0 REG JB-1 POD2-0 BDAL 1 REG JB-2 POD2-1 BDAL 2 REG JB-3 POD2-2 BDAL 0 JB-4 POD1-0 BDAL 3 REG JB-5 POD2-3 BDAL 1 JB-6 POD1-1 BDAL 4 REG JB-7 POD2-4 BDAL 2 JB-8 POD1-2 BDAL 5 REG JB-9 POD2-5 BDAL 3 JB-10 POD1-3 BDAL 6 REG JB-11 POD2-6 BDAL 4 JB-12 POD1-4 BDAL 7 REG JB-13 POD2-7 BDAL 5 JB-14 POD1-5 BDAL 8 REG JB-15 POD2-8 BDAL 6 JB-16 POD1-6 BDAL 9 REG JB-17 POD2-9 BDAL 7 JB-18 POD1-7 BDAL 10 REG JB-19 POD2-10 BDAL 8 JB-20 POD1-8 BDAL 11 REG JB-21 POD2-11 BDAL 9 JB-22 POD1-9 BDAL 12 REG JB-23 POD2-12 BDAL 10 JB-24 POD1-10 BDAL 13 REG JB-25 POD2-13 BDAL 11 JB-26 POD1-11 BDAL 14 REG JB-27 POD2-14 BDAL 12 JB-28 POD1-12 BDAL 15 REG JB-29 POD2-15 BDAL 13 JB-30 POD1-13 GND JB-31 BDAL 14 JB-32 POD1-14 GND JB-33 BDAL 15 JB-34 POD1-15 GND JB-35 JB-36 POD1-CLK GND JB-37 JB-38 GND JB-39 JB-40 From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Dec 24 15:50:35 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 19:50:35 -0200 Subject: C64/C128 CP/M Cartridge Interest? References: <201012240327.oBO3ROuE020438@floodgap.com> <57779CE227E849B89908C5653C1582BA@dell8300><4D14F5AF.2030901@brouhaha.com> <4D1511AE.5030804@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <9F9BD2006D7E4712AB4235B8C7C38962@portajara> > That's why I suggested a dual purpose board. I thought a USB connector Jim, the 999.999.999.99 question is: "Why?" If you have to develop an ENTIRE CPM system to connect to C64, just to use the keyboard and monitor...why not design a standalone CPM card, using a PC keyboard and a vga for output with an option for 15KHz monitors N8VEM is a good candidate... From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Dec 24 16:05:26 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:05:26 -0600 Subject: C64/C128 CP/M Cartridge Interest? In-Reply-To: <4D13FB06.50900@jbrain.com> References: <4D13FB06.50900@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Dec 23, 2010 7:45 PM, "Jim Brain" wrote: > > Would anyone on the list with CP/M or Z80 experience be interested in helping design a CP/M cart for the C64 and C128? I'd like to learn more about CP/M and the Z80, and I thought a revamped cartridge might be a nice way of learning and tying back to my CBM bias. Sounds like the ATR-8000 CP/M box for the Atari 8-bit machines. In that case I'm all for it. It's time Commodores had something similar :) From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 24 16:08:54 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 14:08:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: apple Lisa2. Keypads In-Reply-To: <4D14C328.4080403@arachelian.com> References: <4D0387B0.8080902@arachelian.com> <97D88E62585D4D6D845A0BFEC76D5F15@portajara><262DE34E5261428BAC8C356D1E96A5B8@massey.ac.nz> <4D126B6D.6040608@arachelian.com><446951A77ABB47F8B5AE5083B0C30142@massey.ac.nz> <4D13A67F.1030908@arachelian.com><2F962B08827043D48625681EFF2328F9@vshack> <4D13F710.3080206@arachelian.com> <4D14C328.4080403@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <20101224135833.M25970@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010, Ray Arachelian wrote: > > They would need shipping to New Zealand which would add to the cost. > > Also I have THREE keyboards I'd like to repair not just one. > Oh, I see, these are pulls from another old keyboard. Too bad. Howzbout: do some with pulls, some with new, some with homemade variants, and keep track of how well they hold up. > I suppose if you could build some sort of circular cutting device that > has the right diameter, it would go a lot easier, but that seems > difficult. You'd need to find a metal tube of the right size and > sharpen it to a blade, then rotate it against foam glued to a > mylar/taped aluminum foil layer. (Or against foam/taped aluminum > separately and then glue.) What size do you need? Not all hole punches are standard office size. Punches for leather might work. woodworking "plug cutter"? PAPER DRILL bits, although not cheap, are available up to about 1/2" (eBay: "paper-drill bit*") and there certainly are plenty of folk with lathes who could sharpen a piece of tubing for you. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 24 16:21:54 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 15:21:54 -0700 Subject: Byte magazine is making a comeback In-Reply-To: <280080.16187.qm@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <280080.16187.qm@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Given the amount of time that's passed, shouldn't they call it DWORD? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 24 16:23:16 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 17:23:16 -0500 Subject: Byte magazine is making a comeback In-Reply-To: References: <280080.16187.qm@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D151D54.7050104@neurotica.com> On 12/24/10 5:21 PM, Richard wrote: > Given the amount of time that's passed, shouldn't they call it DWORD? soda -> keyboard -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From evan at snarc.net Fri Dec 24 16:26:11 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 17:26:11 -0500 Subject: Byte magazine is making a comeback In-Reply-To: <4D151D54.7050104@neurotica.com> References: <280080.16187.qm@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4D151D54.7050104@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D151E03.7080703@snarc.net> > >> Given the amount of time that's passed, shouldn't they call it DWORD? > > soda -> keyboard beer -> soda From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Dec 24 16:36:11 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 14:36:11 -0800 Subject: apple Lisa2. Keypads In-Reply-To: <20101224135833.M25970@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4D0387B0.8080902@arachelian.com>, <97D88E62585D4D6D845A0BFEC76D5F15@portajara><262DE34E5261428BAC8C356D1E96A5B8@massey.ac.nz>, <4D126B6D.6040608@arachelian.com><446951A77ABB47F8B5AE5083B0C30142@massey.ac.nz>, <4D13A67F.1030908@arachelian.com><2F962B08827043D48625681EFF2328F9@vshack>, <4D13F710.3080206@arachelian.com>, , <4D14C328.4080403@arachelian.com>, <20101224135833.M25970@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > From: cisin at xenosoft.com > > On Fri, 24 Dec 2010, Ray Arachelian wrote: > > > They would need shipping to New Zealand which would add to the cost. > > > Also I have THREE keyboards I'd like to repair not just one. > > Oh, I see, these are pulls from another old keyboard. Too bad. > > Howzbout: do some with pulls, some with new, some with homemade variants, > and keep track of how well they hold up. > > > I suppose if you could build some sort of circular cutting device that > > has the right diameter, it would go a lot easier, but that seems > > difficult. You'd need to find a metal tube of the right size and > > sharpen it to a blade, then rotate it against foam glued to a > > mylar/taped aluminum foil layer. (Or against foam/taped aluminum > > separately and then glue.) > > What size do you need? Not all hole punches are standard office size. > Punches for leather might work. > woodworking "plug cutter"? > PAPER DRILL bits, although not cheap, are available up to about 1/2" > (eBay: "paper-drill bit*") > and there certainly are plenty of folk with lathes who could sharpen a > piece of tubing for you. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com Hi I think one can use polyfoam. This should work well and won't turn to goo. How thick does it need to be? If there are not sheets of the right thickness, it can be cut from thicker blocks. Most any packaging shop should have polyfoam sheets ( note: not styrofoam ). Dwight From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Dec 24 16:40:01 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 14:40:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: C64/C128 CP/M Cartridge Interest? In-Reply-To: <4D150FF9.90900@neurotica.com> References: <201012240327.oBO3ROuE020438@floodgap.com><57779CE227E849B89908C5653C1582BA@dell8300> <4D14F5AF.2030901@brouhaha.com> <776F79ADFCC44503B0E929B17AEF4CF3@dell8300> <4D150FF9.90900@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Dec 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 12/24/10 3:37 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: >> I wouldn't mind a CP/M standalone if it was cheap. Most of the CP/M >> machines of the era are either recycled or need some repairs by now. > > N8VEM is a really nice machine.. > Unfortunately, nobody is kitting them. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Fri Dec 24 16:44:43 2010 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 14:44:43 -0800 Subject: apple Lisa2. Keypads In-Reply-To: <4D14FF43.5060105@att.net> References: <4D0387B0.8080902@arachelian.com> <97D88E62585D4D6D845A0BFEC76D5F15@portajara><262DE34E5261428BAC8C356D1E96A5B8@massey.ac.nz> <4D126B6D.6040608@arachelian.com><446951A77ABB47F8B5AE5083B0C30142@massey.ac.nz> <4D13A67F.1030908@arachelian.com><2F962B08827043D48625681EFF2328F9@vshack> <4D13F710.3080206@arachelian.com> <4D14C328.4080403@arachelian.com> <4D14FF43.5060105@att.net> Message-ID: <029101cba3bc$29f67d30$7de37790$@com> On Friday, December 24, 2010 12:15 PM steve shumaker wrote: > does anyone have an actual measured diameter of the pad available? As near as I can measure they are 7/16ths of an inch (11mm) in diameter, 3/16ths of an inch (5mm) tall. I don't have calipers so these are eyeball on a ruler measurements, but should be pretty close. I can do pictures if you want. Heck, if someone wants a few samples to try and reproduce I can do that too. Does anyone know anyone at Keytronics who might be able to swipe the original machining, specs, etc? Maybe someone high up we can talk into making a few tens of thousands more? :-) Heck, they owe the community for these problems and should do this by way of apology. Give me a good, last-a-century buckling spring keyboard over these mushboards any day! Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage Computer Forums marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage Computer and Gaming Marketplace From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 24 16:44:41 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 17:44:41 -0500 Subject: C64/C128 CP/M Cartridge Interest? In-Reply-To: References: <201012240327.oBO3ROuE020438@floodgap.com><57779CE227E849B89908C5653C1582BA@dell8300> <4D14F5AF.2030901@brouhaha.com> <776F79ADFCC44503B0E929B17AEF4CF3@dell8300> <4D150FF9.90900@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D152259.7090309@neurotica.com> On 12/24/10 5:40 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>> I wouldn't mind a CP/M standalone if it was cheap. Most of the CP/M >>> machines of the era are either recycled or need some repairs by now. >> >> N8VEM is a really nice machine.. >> > Unfortunately, nobody is kitting them. They're dead easy to assemble. The only "problem" components are the unreasonably large EPROM and SRAM chips, and even they aren't too tough to find. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From leaknoil at gmail.com Fri Dec 24 16:45:53 2010 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 14:45:53 -0800 Subject: apple Lisa2. Keypads In-Reply-To: References: , <4D0387B0.8080902@arachelian.com>, <97D88E62585D4D6D845A0BFEC76D5F15@portajara><262DE34E5261428BAC8C356D1E96A5B8@massey.ac.nz>, <4D126B6D.6040608@arachelian.com><446951A77ABB47F8B5AE5083B0C30142@massey.ac.nz>, <4D13A67F.1030908@arachelian.com><2F962B08827043D48625681EFF2328F9@vshack>, <4D13F710.3080206@arachelian.com>, , <4D14C328.4080403@arachelian.com>, <20101224135833.M25970@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4D1522A1.7090805@gmail.com> I haven't been following this whole thread so, not sure if its been posted or not but, here's a web page on how to do it. The Sol 20 keyboard is the same as all the Keytronic foam keyboards from hell. http://www.solivant.com/sol20kbd/ On 12/24/2010 2:36 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > >> What size do you need? Not all hole punches are standard office size. >> Punches for leather might work. >> woodworking "plug cutter"? >> PAPER DRILL bits, although not cheap, are available up to about 1/2" >> (eBay: "paper-drill bit*") >> and there certainly are plenty of folk with lathes who could sharpen a >> piece of tubing for you. >> >> >> -- >> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > Hi > I think one can use polyfoam. This should work well and won't > turn to goo. How thick does it need to be? If there are not > sheets of the right thickness, it can be cut from thicker > blocks. > Most any packaging shop should have polyfoam sheets ( note: > not styrofoam ). > Dwight > > From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Dec 24 16:42:14 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 20:42:14 -0200 Subject: apple Lisa2. Keypads References: <4D0387B0.8080902@arachelian.com><97D88E62585D4D6D845A0BFEC76D5F15@portajara><262DE34E5261428BAC8C356D1E96A5B8@massey.ac.nz><4D126B6D.6040608@arachelian.com><446951A77ABB47F8B5AE5083B0C30142@massey.ac.nz><4D13A67F.1030908@arachelian.com><2F962B08827043D48625681EFF2328F9@vshack><4D13F710.3080206@arachelian.com><4D14C328.4080403@arachelian.com> <20101224135833.M25970@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: >> I suppose if you could build some sort of circular cutting device that >> has the right diameter, it would go a lot easier, but that seems >> difficult. You'd need to find a metal tube of the right size and >> sharpen it to a blade, then rotate it against foam glued to a >> mylar/taped aluminum foil layer. (Or against foam/taped aluminum >> separately and then glue.) When I have a problem, I always use GoOgLe? :o) Query: "Lisa Keyboard Repair" Second answer: http://www.vintageapple.org/Lukes_LISA_keyboard_repair.pdf That'll suffer, I believe. ;o) From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Dec 24 16:49:34 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 14:49:34 -0800 Subject: apple Lisa2. Keypads In-Reply-To: <029101cba3bc$29f67d30$7de37790$@com> References: <4D0387B0.8080902@arachelian.com> <97D88E62585D4D6D845A0BFEC76D5F15@portajara><262DE34E5261428BAC8C356D1E96A5B8@massey.ac.nz> <4D126B6D.6040608@arachelian.com><446951A77ABB47F8B5AE5083B0C30142@massey.ac.nz> <4D13A67F.1030908@arachelian.com><2F962B08827043D48625681EFF2328F9@vshack> <4D13F710.3080206@arachelian.com> <4D14C328.4080403@arachelian.com>, <4D14FF43.5060105@att.net>, <029101cba3bc$29f67d30$7de37790$@com> Message-ID: > From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com > On Friday, December 24, 2010 12:15 PM steve shumaker wrote: > > > does anyone have an actual measured diameter of the pad available? > > As near as I can measure they are 7/16ths of an inch (11mm) in diameter, > 3/16ths of an inch (5mm) tall. I don't have calipers so these are eyeball > on a ruler measurements, but should be pretty close. > > I can do pictures if you want. > > Heck, if someone wants a few samples to try and reproduce I can do that too. > > Does anyone know anyone at Keytronics who might be able to swipe the > original machining, specs, etc? Maybe someone high up we can talk into > making a few tens of thousands more? :-) > > Heck, they owe the community for these problems and should do this by way of > apology. Give me a good, last-a-century buckling spring keyboard over these > mushboards any day! > Hi Erik I have some poly foam that is about 1/16 thick. Mayby stacking with a little contact cemment would work well. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 24 16:39:39 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 22:39:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Using a Variac to revive power supplies In-Reply-To: from "Rod Smallwood" at Dec 24, 10 08:41:09 am Message-ID: > I know it's obvious but a Variac is AC out. It's capable of 2.2KVA! You > would be relying on the old PSU's transformer and rectifier circuits to > generate the reform voltage. > > DC from a bench PSU across an isolated capacitor via a limiting resistor = > is > probably a better option.=20 I would agree. While I have a Variac and find it useful for testing PSUs at high/low input voltage and things like that, I don't find it much use for repairing linear or switch-mode PSUs. > > As many switchmode PSU's are automatic dual voltage. Usually 110v to = > 240v > They might be OK to run from the Variac. Otherwise probably not.=20 Not always!. Older SMPUs geenrally had a manual voltage selecrtor switch. Often the input circuit was configured as a bridge rectifier for 230V mains charging a pair of smoothing capacitors in series (with suitable bleeder/balanace resistors, which often also provided the startup supply), and as a votlage doubler fro 115V mains. In either case you got abot 350V DC across the capacitors. A lot, if not all of the automatic voltage-seelcting supplies do much the same thing with an automatic circuit in place of the selector swtich. They will not nevessarily work correctly fore any input voltage from (say) 100V to 260V. I was readign a specification for such a supply the other day which speicifically stated that for input voltages in the range 140V to 190V (or something), the PSU would not operate, but it would not be damaged. I beleive some PSUs are acutally damaged under such conditions. Certainly in either case running it up on a vVriac will do nothing useful. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 24 16:48:30 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 22:48:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: apple Lisa2. Keypads In-Reply-To: <4D14C328.4080403@arachelian.com> from "Ray Arachelian" at Dec 24, 10 10:58:32 am Message-ID: > > On 12/23/2010 10:21 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > >> But, just out of curiosity, where exactly would you order keypads from? > >> > > > > Erik's marketplace right here > > > > http://marketplace.vintage-computer.com/auction_details.php?name=Replacement-Sol20-and-others-Keyboard-Foam-Pads&auction_id=108819 > > > > > > They would need shipping to New Zealand which would add to the cost. > > Also I have THREE keyboards I'd like to repair not just one. > > Oh, I see, these are pulls from another old keyboard. Too bad. If these spares are actually old parts, then I take back what I said about using them. These parts do decay with age, and there seems to be little point in fitting soemthing that is going to fail again very soon. I seem to remember, though, that Keytronics keyboards were made until relatively recently, and that spares for themn were available. If you could find some of those they would probably be good for 10 years or so and might be worth using. > > > > > Hmmm...ok, your letter has convinced me. It SEEMS easy enough, and > > it's not like this has to be done immediately. I can snatch a few > > hours here and there as time allows. However I'm sure it will take me > > more than an afternoon or two so I'm not convinced it's "less trouble" > > (-: . More satisfying and permenant in the end though maybe. I'd > > certainly replace the foam as most of it is degraded really badly. > > I suppose if you could build some sort of circular cutting device that > has the right diameter, it would go a lot easier, but that seems > difficult. You'd need to find a metal tube of the right size and Presumably it's the inside diameter that's crtiical. Why not just bore soemthing out to the right diameter and sharpen the edge? > sharpen it to a blade, then rotate it against foam glued to a > mylar/taped aluminum foil layer. (Or against foam/taped aluminum > separately and then glue.) > > I suppose mylar balloons might work if flattened and glued to a thin > stiff piece of plastic also? I still wonder if those meatlaised 'emergency blankets' would work. You see them in pound shos over here, and I would think one would be big enoguh for several keyuboards. -tony From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Fri Dec 24 19:27:52 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 01:27:52 -0000 Subject: Using a Variac to revive power supplies In-Reply-To: <4D14B88E.8050304@cimmeri.com> References: <4D14B88E.8050304@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: Nasty things exploding capacitors. Engineers dictum "If in doubt chuck it out" ie replace. We used to reform supposedly new electrolytics if they had been in the stores for a while. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of js at cimmeri.com Sent: 24 December 2010 15:13 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Using a Variac to revive power supplies Subject: Re: Using a Variac to revive power supplies From: Tobias Russell Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 19:06:04 +0000 To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Ok, I suspected as much. So for a linear supply such as the 8/E's is a Variac a valid way to go or should I reform the capacitors individually as I've done previously? All the best, Toby ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Toby, I've found that removing every single electrolytic and reforming to full (or 10% over) capacity provides the best results. The Variac method -- while better than nothing -- doesn't limit your current... plus doesn't reform all caps to full capacity, nor tell you anything about their condition and leakage. 1. Remove cap. 2. Check ESR. If ok then.. 3. Reform with resistor and variable power supply while monitoring current... raise input voltage slowly to keep max current to no more than 1ma. Let current settle down every so often to check for leakage rates at various voltages... One method I use is halves... start out at 50% rated voltage, let settle, then 75%, settle, then 87%, 95, 100.... Checking leakage at each stage like this gives you an idea of cap condition.. so you can decide whether to replace or not. 4. Check ESR again. 5. Check capacity. 6. If capacity is within 10% of spec, ESR is what it should be, and your leakage rates are acceptable, then you're good to reinstall. Otherwise, replace! - John Singleton From lynchaj at yahoo.com Fri Dec 24 19:33:16 2010 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 20:33:16 -0500 Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest Message-ID: ________________________________ On 12/24/10 5:40 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>> I wouldn't mind a CP/M standalone if it was cheap. Most of the CP/M >>> machines of the era are either recycled or need some repairs by now. >> >> N8VEM is a really nice machine.. >> > Unfortunately, nobody is kitting them. They're dead easy to assemble. The only "problem" components are the unreasonably large EPROM and SRAM chips, and even they aren't too tough to find. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL -----REPLY----- Hi! Due to numerous builder requests, we fixed the RAM/ROM size issue with SBC V2. SBC V2 accepts 28 and 32 pin ROMs (EPROM, PROM, EEPROM, or Flash) which is pretty much anything from a 27256 to a 29C040 or 27C080. You could probably go smaller if you want although I haven't tested it myself. Also the RAM accepts 512KB or 128KB SRAMs. All set with config jumpers. There are several other improvements which fixed several bugs from SBC V1. Maybe what is needed for the C64 CP/M cart is a expansion port to ECB interface board. Then plug in an N8VEM SBC, SBC-188, or whatever and use the ECB peripheral boards along with your C64. We have a 6809/6802/6502 to ECB bridge board that might be a basis. Make the C64 appear as an IO port on the ECB and as a memory mapped IO on the C64. Plug in SBC V2 for your CP/M-80 cartridge or SBC-188 V1 for the CP/M-86. Just an idea. Back in the day, I used to have a C64 with a CP/M cartridge. It was great -- Nevada FORTRAN rocks! Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Dec 24 19:39:13 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 17:39:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: Harris TS22 buttset repair Message-ID: I had to pass up a gig because my buttset ran down its batteries. That's not much of a problem except that I found out that the Harris TS22 series has an irritating little problem of locking up if both the 9V and 3V batteries are both dead. Does anyone here know how to get a TS22L unlocked without sending it out for repair? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Dec 24 19:47:38 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 23:47:38 -0200 Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest References: Message-ID: I'll try to ask a different question here What is needed to CREATE (and not build) a CP/M compatible computer? Now it got me puzzled. I have some circuit adaptations of MSX and TRS-80 computers, as minimal computers to run CP/M code. But what is needed - beyond Z80 and 64K of RAM - to run CPM? Is there any kind of doc discussing it? From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 24 20:19:41 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 18:19:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101224180207.P25970@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > What is needed to CREATE (and not build) a CP/M compatible computer? > Now it got me puzzled. I have some circuit adaptations of MSX and TRS-80 > computers, as minimal computers to run CP/M code. But what is needed - > beyond Z80 and 64K of RAM - to run CPM? Is there any kind of doc discussing > it? You don't NEED 64K. CP/M can run in 16K. But, if you want a decent sized TPA, you can have 50+ K TPA with 64K, or even 63K TPA with 128K. 8080. Yeah, a Z80 is NICE. and FAST! and some aps insist on it. But, CP/M can run on 8080, 8085, and anything else, including emulators that can handle 8080 code. It's too bad that nobody brought up CP/M on the Kyoceras (Radio Shack model 100, Nec 8200, etc). THAT would have been a project. Or on the Epson RC20! From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 24 20:44:42 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 18:44:42 -0800 Subject: C64/C128 CP/M Cartridge Interest? In-Reply-To: <4D152259.7090309@neurotica.com> References: <201012240327.oBO3ROuE020438@floodgap.com>, , <4D152259.7090309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D14EA1A.18117.21DB473@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Dec 2010 at 17:44, Dave McGuire wrote: > They're dead easy to assemble. The only "problem" components are > the > unreasonably large EPROM and SRAM chips, and even they aren't too > tough to find. Well, if you want to run a "loaded" system, there's always this: http://www.ez80sbc.com/ --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 24 21:54:32 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 22:54:32 -0500 Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D156AF8.9010505@neurotica.com> On 12/24/10 8:47 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > I'll try to ask a different question here > > What is needed to CREATE (and not build) a CP/M compatible computer? > > Now it got me puzzled. I have some circuit adaptations of MSX and TRS-80 > computers, as minimal computers to run CP/M code. But what is needed - > beyond Z80 and 64K of RAM - to run CPM? Is there any kind of doc > discussing it? Very little is required beyond a CPU and memory. First, a Z80 isn't required; you can use an 8080 or an 8085. (or one of the later Z80 implementations) You also don't need 64K; CP/M will run in much less, 16KB I think was the minimum. Beyond that, you need some sort of ASCII textual console device (like a serial port, or a video subsystem + keyboard interface) and a mass-storage device. That's it! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 24 22:13:06 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 20:13:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: <4D156AF8.9010505@neurotica.com> References: <4D156AF8.9010505@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20101224195927.S25970@shell.lmi.net> > > Now it got me puzzled. I have some circuit adaptations of MSX and TRS-80 > > computers, as minimal computers to run CP/M code. But what is needed - > > beyond Z80 and 64K of RAM - to run CPM? Is there any kind of doc > > discussing it? On Fri, 24 Dec 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > Very little is required beyond a CPU and memory. First, a Z80 isn't > required; you can use an 8080 or an 8085. (or one of the later Z80 > implementations) You also don't need 64K; CP/M will run in much less, > 16KB I think was the minimum. > Beyond that, you need some sort of ASCII textual console device (like > a serial port, or a video subsystem + keyboard interface) and a > mass-storage device. > That's it! Well, . . . CP/M kinda assumes that it will have contiguous RAM for its TPA, starting at location 0 (The "relocated" CP/Ms for UNMODIFIED TRS80 don't really count) That means that in general, the BIOS (usually ROM) needs to be at the top, and I/O should stay out of the way (avoid memory mapped I/O anywhere but the top) The BIOS is the key to being able to use all kinds of bizarre hardware. The BIOS needs to be able to do console I/O a character at a time, and block I/O (disk "sectors" that don't really need to be disk nor sectors) 128 bytes at a time. Study the source of some BIOS's - if you can create a CPM compatible BIOS for it, then it is CP/M compatible. (the above statement is a little over-simplified) From brain at jbrain.com Fri Dec 24 22:24:32 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 22:24:32 -0600 Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: <4D156AF8.9010505@neurotica.com> References: <4D156AF8.9010505@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D157200.4090703@jbrain.com> On 12/24/2010 9:54 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 12/24/10 8:47 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I'll try to ask a different question here >> >> What is needed to CREATE (and not build) a CP/M compatible computer? >> >> Now it got me puzzled. I have some circuit adaptations of MSX and TRS-80 >> computers, as minimal computers to run CP/M code. But what is needed - >> beyond Z80 and 64K of RAM - to run CPM? Is there any kind of doc >> discussing it? > > Very little is required beyond a CPU and memory. First, a Z80 isn't > required; you can use an 8080 or an 8085. (or one of the later Z80 > implementations) You also don't need 64K; CP/M will run in much less, > 16KB I think was the minimum. > > Beyond that, you need some sort of ASCII textual console device > (like a serial port, or a video subsystem + keyboard interface) and a > mass-storage device. > > That's it! > > -Dave > Is there a link handy to a minimal schematic. Alexandre's question piqued my curiosity, so I went looking, thinking there would be a ez80 Acclaim + SRAM + SD, using the RS232 for a terminal. I can't find anything that minimal. If true (I'm happy to be wrong), I agree a small board with the minimal components might be useful to a wide range of people. But, it would require someone who can write a BDOS for it. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com www.jbrain.net (eStore) From brain at jbrain.com Fri Dec 24 22:37:23 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 22:37:23 -0600 Subject: C64/C128 CP/M Cartridge Interest? In-Reply-To: <9F9BD2006D7E4712AB4235B8C7C38962@portajara> References: <201012240327.oBO3ROuE020438@floodgap.com> <57779CE227E849B89908C5653C1582BA@dell8300><4D14F5AF.2030901@brouhaha.com> <4D1511AE.5030804@jbrain.com> <9F9BD2006D7E4712AB4235B8C7C38962@portajara> Message-ID: <4D157503.4070909@jbrain.com> On 12/24/2010 3:50 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> That's why I suggested a dual purpose board. I thought a USB connector > > Jim, the 999.999.999.99 question is: > > "Why?" > > If you have to develop an ENTIRE CPM system to connect to C64, just > to use the keyboard and monitor...why not design a standalone CPM > card, using a PC keyboard and a vga for output with an option for > 15KHz monitors > > N8VEM is a good candidate... A couple of reasons: * N8VEM, while a great solution, is enormous. There are many closet C128 CP/M users, and they'd never go for such a huge addition to their setup. A cartridge form factor, easy decision. Others would scoff at relegating their C128 as a dumb terminal to another machine (for instance, they could easily do the same thing by running a CP/M emu on their PC and connecting the C128 to the PC via a null modem cable). It's perception. * There is more to a C128 CP/M cartridge than just using the C128 as a dumb terminal. Some C128 CP/M apps might take advantage of the functions in the C128 itself, like the 40 column screen and such. Thus, memory mirroring and such would be useful. I didn't bring it up initially, because A) not sure if apps did that. B) I just wanted to start small, and thought that interfacing the Z80 to the CBM bus would be a good start * I theorized that a tiny CP/M board might be of use where N8VEM was too big or too expansive. * I so want to start learning Verilog. I thought, if I got a basic environment going, I could then take a look at virtualizing the pieces to an FPGA connected to the C128/C64. But, since I know little of Z80 and CP/M (having used it long ago), I thought going to FPGAs from nothing was too large a leap. * The next step after that is an accelerated CP/M. This plays in with my hope to obtain the rights to the SuperCPU for the C64/C128. It lacked accelerated Z80/CP/M compatibility, which I thought I could add, though maybe not. I'm gathering from the results that there might not be the interest I had theorized, which is fine. But, I thought I'd at least ask. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com www.jbrain.net (eStore) From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Dec 25 01:30:54 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 00:30:54 -0700 Subject: Undocumented 8080 instructions? Message-ID: <4D159DAE.8060702@brouhaha.com> Does anyone have information on undocumented 8080 instructions? There's plenty of information out there about undocumented Z-80 and 8085 instructions, but I haven't found anything on the 8080. Some of the non-Intel 8080 and 8080-compatible parts were independent designs, rather than licensed second-sources using Intel-provided masks, so those might have different behavior for the undocumented opcodes. Thanks, Eric From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 25 06:03:50 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 12:03:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Using a Variac to revive power supplies In-Reply-To: from "Rod Smallwood" at Dec 25, 10 01:27:52 am Message-ID: > > > Nasty things exploding capacitors. Engineers dictum "If in doubt chuck = > it Although modst modern capacitors (read : anything you will find in a classic computer) have vents or deliberatly weakened sections of can so that they will fail in a relatively safe manner. Still unpleasant. > out" ie replace. We used to reform supposedly new electrolytics if they I don;t normally replace working components, but I did replace the pair of mains smoothing capacitors in my HP120. They tested fine, but the tops of the cans were bulging. The position of the PSU board is such that they were pointing straight at the CRT neck. Had one failed, I suspect it would ahve broken the neck off the CRT. Now, while that is unlikely to cause a violent implosion, new CRTs are much harder to find than smoothing capacitors, so I repleaced the latter before any harm was done. = > had > been in the stores for a while. If a cpacitor refroms and has a low leakage, etc, then it should be perfeclty OK to use. After all, reforming is just redepositing the dielectric oxide layer, and that's how they were 'formed' originally. Perhaps I have just been very lucky (or only work on well-made machines), but I do not find smoothing capacitor failure to be as much of a problem as some people seem to think. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 25 06:11:56 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 12:11:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Dec 24, 10 11:47:38 pm Message-ID: > > > I'll try to ask a different question here > > What is needed to CREATE (and not build) a CP/M compatible computer? > > Now it got me puzzled. I have some circuit adaptations of MSX and TRS-80 > computers, as minimal computers to run CP/M code. But what is needed - > beyond Z80 and 64K of RAM - to run CPM? Is there any kind of doc discussing > it? Actaully, AFAIK you don't need either of those... An 8080 procesosr will do, so will an 8085 to run CP/M. However some application programs did use the Z80-only instructions so it probably makes a lot of sense ot sue that processor You don't need 64K RAM. There have been 32K or 48K CP/M machines, it wouldn't suprise me if 16K was done too. Again, though, it's probably sensible to have 64K these days. Unless you want to run a modified CP/M and applications, you need RAM starting at location 0. Since the Z80 starts at location 0 when you reset it, the normal thing to do is to have a boot ROM [1] that replaces RAM at locaiton 0 on resetm and is then switched out 9or relocated to the top fo the memory map) once the machine has loaded the OS into RAM. [1] Some machines -- I think Cromemco was one -- had a little bit of hardware to force a jump instruction onto the processor data bus immediately after rest, thus forcing th CPU to execute thr boot ROM at the tom of the memory map. Whether you want to call this a 'ROM at location 0' is up to you ;-) You presumably need some kidn of mass storage. It doesn't have to be floppy disks. You need a text terminal or something equivelent to it. You can have a seiral port to a normal terminal, or memory mapped video, or whatever you like. And I think that's about it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 25 06:16:11 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 12:16:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: <20101224180207.P25970@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Dec 24, 10 06:19:41 pm Message-ID: > It's too bad that nobody brought up CP/M on the Kyoceras (Radio Shack > model 100, Nec 8200, etc). THAT would have been a project. I think a lot of people (including myself, amazingly) tended to use the built-in software of the M100, so no reall need for CP/M. It probably wouldn't be that big a modification (the main part being re-mappling the memory so there's RAM at location 0 -- in fact a programmable invesion of A15 would do it). But you'd only have 32K RAM and an 8085 processor which would limit what you could run. > Or on the Epson RC20! The Epson TF20 (floppy drive for the HX20, PX4, PX8, etc) contains a Z80 and 64K RAM. Oh, and a boot ROM that is mapped out after booting. I have never analyhsed the system disk in detail, but I have a feeling this thing runs CP/M internally. -tony From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Dec 25 08:16:46 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 09:16:46 -0500 Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D15FCCE.4060808@verizon.net> On 12/25/2010 07:16 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >> It's too bad that nobody brought up CP/M on the Kyoceras (Radio Shack >> model 100, Nec 8200, etc). THAT would have been a project. > I think a lot of people (including myself, amazingly) tended to use the > built-in software of the M100, so no reall need for CP/M. > > It probably wouldn't be that big a modification (the main part being > re-mappling the memory so there's RAM at location 0 -- in fact a > programmable invesion of A15 would do it). But you'd only have 32K RAM > and an 8085 processor which would limit what you could run. > Exactly. Mine is modded to 64K ram, 32K "boot disk" and a 16mb CF for main store. 80% of the software out there is 8080. Those few that are not are often available in source form and can be patched if needed. >> Or on the Epson RC20! > The Epson TF20 (floppy drive for the HX20, PX4, PX8, etc) contains a Z80 > and 64K RAM. Oh, and a boot ROM that is mapped out after booting. I have > never analyhsed the system disk in detail, but I have a feeling this > thing runs CP/M internally. > The PX-8 is a CP/M system based on Rom and Ram disk with hooks for external extension for both greater rom/ram disk or the floppy device. Allison > -tony > From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Dec 25 08:27:31 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 09:27:31 -0500 Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D15FF53.9030906@verizon.net> On 12/25/2010 07:11 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> I'll try to ask a different question here >> >> What is needed to CREATE (and not build) a CP/M compatible computer? >> >> Now it got me puzzled. I have some circuit adaptations of MSX and TRS-80 >> computers, as minimal computers to run CP/M code. But what is needed - >> beyond Z80 and 64K of RAM - to run CPM? Is there any kind of doc discussing >> it? Minimal system: 8080, 8085, NsC800, Z80, or Z180 cpu. The prefered CPU is z80 as it's easy to interface and there are some CP/M apps that require it. 64K ram, (technically cp/m runs in 20k or more but useful apps are minimally 48K) Boot rom(eprom/flash) that maps out of the 0000h startup address Mass storage, this can be floppy, CF, SD, Or some form of rom/ram to look like disk. User IO, typically a serial line for a terminal can be a memory mapped video and keyboard or similar. CP/M is self contained, howeer for any hardware configuration there is a thing called BIOS and is unique to that hardware. The BIOS provides hardware abstraction layer from the physical to the logical interface that CP/M expects. For most systems it can be trivial. The base TRS80 cannot do that as all the IO (keyboard, video) and rom are mapped into the low ram address space. it's possible to hack that to high space and dump the tTRS roms but thats a bit of work. Allison > Actaully, AFAIK you don't need either of those... > > An 8080 procesosr will do, so will an 8085 to run CP/M. However some > application programs did use the Z80-only instructions so it probably > makes a lot of sense ot sue that processor > > You don't need 64K RAM. There have been 32K or 48K CP/M machines, it > wouldn't suprise me if 16K was done too. Again, though, it's probably > sensible to have 64K these days. > > Unless you want to run a modified CP/M and applications, you need RAM > starting at location 0. Since the Z80 starts at location 0 when you reset > it, the normal thing to do is to have a boot ROM [1] that replaces RAM at > locaiton 0 on resetm and is then switched out 9or relocated to the top fo > the memory map) once the machine has loaded the OS into RAM. > > [1] Some machines -- I think Cromemco was one -- had a little bit of > hardware to force a jump instruction onto the processor data bus > immediately after rest, thus forcing th CPU to execute thr boot ROM at > the tom of the memory map. Whether you want to call this a 'ROM at > location 0' is up to you ;-) > > You presumably need some kidn of mass storage. It doesn't have to be > floppy disks. > > You need a text terminal or something equivelent to it. You can have a > seiral port to a normal terminal, or memory mapped video, or whatever > you like. > > And I think that's about it. > > -tony > From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat Dec 25 08:38:34 2010 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 09:38:34 -0500 Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest Message-ID: <009BA00FAD8347EC9D8283A22DDF4B51@andrewdesktop> C64/C128 CP/M Cartridge Interest? Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com Fri Dec 24 22:37:23 CST 2010 [snip] > > N8VEM is a good candidate... A couple of reasons: * N8VEM, while a great solution, is enormous. There are many closet C128 CP/M users, and they'd never go for such a huge addition to their setup. A cartridge form factor, easy decision. Others would scoff at relegating their C128 as a dumb terminal to another machine (for instance, they could easily do the same thing by running a CP/M emu on their PC and connecting the C128 to the PC via a null modem cable). It's perception. * There is more to a C128 CP/M cartridge than just using the C128 as a dumb terminal. Some C128 CP/M apps might take advantage of the functions in the C128 itself, like the 40 column screen and such. Thus, memory mirroring and such would be useful. I didn't bring it up initially, because A) not sure if apps did that. B) I just wanted to start small, and thought that interfacing the Z80 to the CBM bus would be a good start * I theorized that a tiny CP/M board might be of use where N8VEM was too big or too expansive. * I so want to start learning Verilog. I thought, if I got a basic environment going, I could then take a look at virtualizing the pieces to an FPGA connected to the C128/C64. But, since I know little of Z80 and CP/M (having used it long ago), I thought going to FPGAs from nothing was too large a leap. * The next step after that is an accelerated CP/M. This plays in with my hope to obtain the rights to the SuperCPU for the C64/C128. It lacked accelerated Z80/CP/M compatibility, which I thought I could add, though maybe not. I'm gathering from the results that there might not be the interest I had theorized, which is fine. But, I thought I'd at least ask. Jim [snip] -----REPLY----- Hi Jim, I gather the form factor you have in mind is the classic C64 game cartridge? The CP/M cartridge I recall from the 1980's was much larger than a game cartridge so that's were I was coming from. I've never heard a Eurocard board (160x100mm) described as "enormous" but clearly you are thinking about a much smaller board than I was. I suppose such a cartridge is possible but it would require a few very dense parts. Probably a CPLD at a minimum probably a FGPA with fine pitch SMT connections. At least to me, you would need a four chip minimum a Z80, SRAM, Flash ROM, and glue logic. Maybe less if you can blow a Z80 core into an FPGA which is possible I believe. All in SMT QFP packaging to get the density to fit multiple chips into a 2"x3" PCB. It sounds more like a commercial product than a hobbyist project to me though. Actually, the C64 ECB bridge approach idea is not using the C64/C128 as only dumb terminal. It would be 3 or so general purpose IO ports. Then the C64/C128 could serve IO to the Z80 when it is running. The Z80 sends an IO request to the C64 which passes status and data back. The 6510 would run an IO server program and the Z80 would be its client. Assuming an interrupt driven design the IO processor (6510) could serve the Z80 IO as a "background" task to a limited extent. This is how the N8VEM SBC with the 6809/6802/6502 host processor works. The 6809 runs independently but passes its IO requests to the Z80 which serves terminal IO, disk IO, parallel port, video or whatever. It fully utilitizes the Z80 and 6809 as a dual independent processors with their own RAM/ROM. However the 6809 host processor can be optionally upgraded to include its own unique IO set for more independence or as stand alone mode. I am not familiar with the SuperCPU but based on quick web search it appears to be roughly Eurocard sized. Good luck with your project. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch PS, we had a builder recently who crafted his own N8VEM SBC using a CPLD design. Basically it was all the large IC s (CPU, RAM, ROM, UART, PPI) and one large CPLD. It seemed to work well enough too. I was considering doing something similar on the N8VEM home computer project since it is limited to 60 square inches. However, we seemed to have resolved the PCB layout issues using regular PTH DIP/PLCC 2 layer PCB construction. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Dec 25 09:30:03 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 07:30:03 -0800 Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: References: from "Alexandre Message-ID: > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk ----snip--- > > Unless you want to run a modified CP/M and applications, you need RAM > starting at location 0. Since the Z80 starts at location 0 when you reset > it, the normal thing to do is to have a boot ROM [1] that replaces RAM at > locaiton 0 on resetm and is then switched out 9or relocated to the top fo > the memory map) once the machine has loaded the OS into RAM. > > [1] Some machines -- I think Cromemco was one -- had a little bit of > hardware to force a jump instruction onto the processor data bus > immediately after rest, thus forcing th CPU to execute thr boot ROM at > the tom of the memory map. Whether you want to call this a 'ROM at > location 0' is up to you ;-) > ---snip--- Hi I suspect that the reason for this may have been that the original CP/M was done on computers with 0 based RAM and methods to load code at 0 on boot. I don't recall how the MDS800s did this but I do know that early work on CP/M was done with one of Torode's early controllers. These were DMA and had there own state machine that could auto transfer the first boot sector into RAM on reset, independent of what processor was in the machines. I have one of his later controllers in my IMSAI and that is how it works. Adding hardware to do the ROM/RAM transfer on boot is relatively easy with the addition of a 7474. Most machines decode a I/O address. You use the first I/O to toggle the 7474 and that turns on the RAM and the ROM off. Reset is connected to the 7474. Most ROM and RAM boards use some type of comparator to determine the addess ( a 74688 was what I recall ). Normally the input was tied to ground. This could be tied to the 7474. On newer boards, there was the phantom signal. The boot ROM would transfer all the needed ROM to RAM and then switch to all RAM. Dwight From feedle at feedle.net Sat Dec 25 10:50:39 2010 From: feedle at feedle.net (C Sullivan / A Baumann) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 08:50:39 -0800 Subject: C64/C128 CP/M Cartridge Interest? In-Reply-To: <4D150FF9.90900@neurotica.com> References: <201012240327.oBO3ROuE020438@floodgap.com><57779CE227E849B89908C5653C1582BA@dell8300> <4D14F5AF.2030901@brouhaha.com> <776F79ADFCC44503B0E929B17AEF4CF3@dell8300> <4D150FF9.90900@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5A154A64-9ECC-485D-A664-303D3A2663EA@feedle.net> On Dec 24, 2010, at 1:26 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 12/24/10 3:37 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: >> I wouldn't mind a CP/M standalone if it was cheap. Most of the CP/M >> machines of the era are either recycled or need some repairs by now. > > N8VEM is a really nice machine.. Also don't forget P112. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 25 11:05:15 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 12:05:15 -0500 Subject: C64/C128 CP/M Cartridge Interest? In-Reply-To: <5A154A64-9ECC-485D-A664-303D3A2663EA@feedle.net> References: <201012240327.oBO3ROuE020438@floodgap.com><57779CE227E849B89908C5653C1582BA@dell8300> <4D14F5AF.2030901@brouhaha.com> <776F79ADFCC44503B0E929B17AEF4CF3@dell8300> <4D150FF9.90900@neurotica.com> <5A154A64-9ECC-485D-A664-303D3A2663EA@feedle.net> Message-ID: <4D16244B.6030802@neurotica.com> On 12/25/10 11:50 AM, C Sullivan / A Baumann wrote: >>> I wouldn't mind a CP/M standalone if it was cheap. Most of the CP/M >>> machines of the era are either recycled or need some repairs by now. >> >> N8VEM is a really nice machine.. > > Also don't forget P112. Yes, a very nice design. Kinda tough to get ahold of though. (for now anyway) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 25 11:06:46 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 12:06:46 -0500 Subject: holidays and stuff Message-ID: <4D1624A6.2060207@neurotica.com> Happy Holidays, everyone. May your vintage computers run flawlessly and your eBay saved searches be fruitful! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 25 11:24:19 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 12:24:19 -0500 Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: <4D157200.4090703@jbrain.com> References: <4D156AF8.9010505@neurotica.com> <4D157200.4090703@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4D1628C3.20600@neurotica.com> On 12/24/10 11:24 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > Is there a link handy to a minimal schematic. Alexandre's question > piqued my curiosity, so I went looking, thinking there would be a ez80 > Acclaim + SRAM + SD, using the RS232 for a terminal. I can't find > anything that minimal. I could draw one up. For the eZ80Acclaim! chips, there's at least one port of CP/M that I've seen floating around. Those chips are pretty easy to design with; I've done a few commercial designs with the eZ80F91 (the member of the family that runs at 50MHz and has an on-chip Ethernet controller). > If true (I'm happy to be wrong), I agree a small board with the minimal > components might be useful to a wide range of people. But, it would > require someone who can write a BDOS for it. BIOS, not BDOS...The BDOS is supplied as a standard, not-modifiable part of CP/M. In any case, I have done several BIOSes (including two for homebrew Z80 SBCs) and can help with that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Dec 25 11:26:47 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 15:26:47 -0200 Subject: holidays and stuff References: <4D1624A6.2060207@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Happy Holidays, everyone. May your vintage computers run flawlessly and > your eBay saved searches be fruitful! So for you, and everyone here, Dave! At least I got something...A MSX 2.0 :oD (Brazilian Gradiente Expert modified with an ACVS kit) From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Dec 25 11:27:01 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 09:27:01 -0800 Subject: ISO Corvus transporter card with piggyback EPROM Message-ID: <4D162965.3010003@bitsavers.org> Not much of a chance, but I thought I'd try. Corvus released a special version of the transporter firmware that went in a piggyback EPROM on the microcontroller. I've been looking for the code for a LONG time. It is mostly useful for packet sniffing. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Dec 25 11:28:21 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 09:28:21 -0800 Subject: Osborne backlog cleared on bitsavers Message-ID: <4D1629B5.4010208@bitsavers.org> I finally got around yesterday to clearing the backlog of Osborne stuff, and rearranged things a bit http://bitsavers.org/pdf/osborne http://bitsavers.org/bits/Osborne From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 25 11:39:32 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 12:39:32 -0500 Subject: holidays and stuff In-Reply-To: References: <4D1624A6.2060207@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D162C54.3080404@neurotica.com> On 12/25/10 12:26 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Happy Holidays, everyone. May your vintage computers run flawlessly >> and your eBay saved searches be fruitful! > > So for you, and everyone here, Dave! At least I got something...A MSX > 2.0 :oD (Brazilian Gradiente Expert modified with an ACVS kit) Pics! MSX stuff isn't terribly common here, in my experience. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Dec 25 11:52:54 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 15:52:54 -0200 Subject: holidays and stuff References: <4D1624A6.2060207@neurotica.com> <4D162C54.3080404@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <8ACC14CA48B347038CC2D8CFB528832B@portajara> > Pics! MSX stuff isn't terribly common here, in my experience. Well, these are not THE 2.0 I got today, but all photos are mine, with my old MSXes: http://msxpro.com/acvs2.0.html http://msxpro.com/kitddx.html http://msxpro.com/kitddx2-2p_as.html And lots of MSX things (most did by me, or by Luciano Sturaro, the owner of the site): http://msxpro.com/projetos.html Of course, there is always my site, with lots of photos: http://tabalabs.com.br Want more? :oD From brain at jbrain.com Sat Dec 25 12:02:22 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 12:02:22 -0600 Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: <009BA00FAD8347EC9D8283A22DDF4B51@andrewdesktop> References: <009BA00FAD8347EC9D8283A22DDF4B51@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <4D1631AE.3080201@jbrain.com> On 12/25/2010 8:38 AM, Andrew Lynch wrote: > > I gather the form factor you have in mind is the classic C64 game cartridge? yep, 3.35" by 2.25" sq in. > The CP/M cartridge I recall from the 1980's was much larger than a game > cartridge so that's were I was coming from. I've never heard a Eurocard > board (160x100mm) described as "enormous" but clearly you are thinking about > a much smaller board than I was. I agree it's a relative thing, but yes, compared to my designs, the 160x100 (6.something by 4) is extremely large in my world. > density to fit multiple chips into a 2"x3" PCB. It sounds more like a > commercial product than a hobbyist project to me though. Yep. No offense to the list participants, but I gave up on selling kits. Given the hobbyist nature of my work, kits required too much of my limited hobbyist time. Given the assembled nature of the unit, I can use extremely large density devices with no issues. > Actually, the C64 ECB bridge approach idea is not using the C64/C128 as only > dumb terminal. It would be 3 or so general purpose IO ports. Then the I was referring to a previous poster who was suggesting using just the terminal port of the N8VEM board. > I am not familiar with the SuperCPU but based on quick web search it appears > to be roughly Eurocard sized. Good luck with your project. It is rather large as well. Though, with today's integration options, it too could be constructed in the smaller space of a CBM game cartridge. In fact, it would have to be to bring the cost to something reasonably. People was apprehensive about a $300.00 20MHz accelerator in the late '90s, there's no way they'd pay that much now. Jim From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 25 12:07:45 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 10:07:45 -0800 Subject: Undocumented 8080 instructions? In-Reply-To: <4D159DAE.8060702@brouhaha.com> References: <4D159DAE.8060702@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4D15C271.753.5915C9@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Dec 2010 at 0:30, Eric Smith wrote: > Does anyone have information on undocumented 8080 instructions? > There's plenty of information out there about undocumented Z-80 and > 8085 instructions, but I haven't found anything on the 8080. > > Some of the non-Intel 8080 and 8080-compatible parts were independent > designs, rather than licensed second-sources using Intel-provided > masks, so those might have different behavior for the undocumented > opcodes. I recall investigating this after Intel the undocumented 8085 instructions. To the best of my recollection, the undocumented 8080 opcodes are, by and large, no-ops or redundancies (i.e. they do the same as a close-valued opcode probably from incomplete PLA decoding). My test was pretty simple--plug the opcode, followed by two 00 bytes (in case the opcode might be interpreted as a 3-byte instruction, execute, check the flags and registers and location 0000 to see if anything has changed, lather, rinse, repeat. No startling new "triple precision divide" instructions. I'm certain that if I had discovered some fabulous new instruction, I would have certainly documented it. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 25 12:18:10 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 10:18:10 -0800 Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: <4D15FF53.9030906@verizon.net> References: , <4D15FF53.9030906@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4D15C4E2.27777.62A0A8@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Dec 2010 at 9:27, allison wrote: > 8080, 8085, NsC800, Z80, or Z180 cpu. The prefered CPU is z80 as it's > easy to interface and there are some CP/M apps that require it. If you're starting off from scratch and want the smallest parts-count system, why not an eZ80 Acclaim? 256KB of flash, 24-bit external memory interface, built-in 100BaseT ethernet MAC, 2 UARTS, IrDA, lots of GPIO pins, SPI, I2C and a PLL clock generator good to 50MHz as well as ICE support and separately-powered RTC. Still Z80-compatible (or the enhanced instruction set if you want it). I suspect that you could dump most of what you need in the way of CP/M programs into the on-chip flash. Add an external SRAM and external interface "glue" and you're done, but for the programming. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 25 12:11:55 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 18:11:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: <4D15FCCE.4060808@verizon.net> from "allison" at Dec 25, 10 09:16:46 am Message-ID: > >> Or on the Epson RC20! > > The Epson TF20 (floppy drive for the HX20, PX4, PX8, etc) contains a Z80 > > and 64K RAM. Oh, and a boot ROM that is mapped out after booting. I have > > never analyhsed the system disk in detail, but I have a feeling this > > thing runs CP/M internally. > > > The PX-8 is a CP/M system based on Rom and Ram disk with > hooks for external extension for both greater rom/ram disk or > the floppy device. Sure, as is the PX4 (I have both). The HX20, of course is not (it uses a pair of 6303 microprocessors). But the 5.25" floppy drive appears to run CP/M (or something close) on its intenral processor. The 3.5 drive, BTW, doesn't... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 25 12:27:01 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 18:27:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: holidays and stuff In-Reply-To: <4D1624A6.2060207@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Dec 25, 10 12:06:46 pm Message-ID: > > > Happy Holidays, everyone. May your vintage computers run flawlessly > and your eBay saved searches be fruitful! Thank you. I've had a very traditional Newtonsday. Traditional for me that is. I have spent much of the time investigating the video PCB in my HP150... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 25 12:25:25 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 18:25:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Dec 25, 10 07:30:03 am Message-ID: > I suspect that the reason for this may have been that the original > CP/M was done on computers with 0 based RAM and methods to > load code at 0 on boot. I beleive the historay can be traced back to the MCS8i system. This, AFAIK, never had disks, and never ran CP/M. But it's 8080-based and amazingly it has a CPM-like IOBYTE at location 3. This machine has RAM at location 0 by default. The thing is that the 8080 starts executing at location 0, so by puittign RAM there you could enter a program (or at least a jJMP instruction) at location 0, hit reset, and run it. That's what you did on the MCS8i. Since a jump is 3 bytes long, it occupied locations 0.1.2, so location 3 was the first 'free' location, hence used for IOBYTE. To run the ROM monitor on the MSC8i, you toggled C3 00 38 (jump to 0x3800) into the first 3 locations, reset, and let it run. The MDS800, for all it didn't have a front panel, kept the same sort of memory map (for good reasons IMHO). FWIW, I have both machines with manuals... > Adding hardware to do the ROM/RAM transfer on boot is relatively > easy with the addition of a 7474. Most machines decode a I/O I've seen it done in all sorts of ways. Including a little state machine that picks up the first 3 read cycles after a reset, disables data buffers, etc, so they never go outside the CPU board, and forces a jump instruciton onto the processor data lines. Or, as you say, having a flip-flop that's dset one way on reset to enable a ROM at location 0 and the other way by some other method. One trick was to have the ROM always accessible at the top of memory. On a reset, it was also eneables at locaiton 0 (or it filled the memory map). The frirst instruction in the ROM wasa jump to the 'real' ROM location (let's say it was 0xE000) and the first read cycle with A15 set (or something) cleared the flip-flop, thus making the ROM appear only at the top of the memory map and enabling RAM elsewhere. And there are all sorts of other ways to do it. -tony From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat Dec 25 13:03:38 2010 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 14:03:38 -0500 Subject: holidays and stuff Message-ID: <0E4EA88555874829A8D03D7582927F8B@andrewdesktop> holidays and stuff Alexandre Souza - Listas pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Dec 25 11:52:54 CST 2010 [snip] > Pics! MSX stuff isn't terribly common here, in my experience. Well, these are not THE 2.0 I got today, but all photos are mine, with my old MSXes: http://msxpro.com/acvs2.0.html http://msxpro.com/kitddx.html http://msxpro.com/kitddx2-2p_as.html And lots of MSX things (most did by me, or by Luciano Sturaro, the owner of the site): http://msxpro.com/projetos.html Of course, there is always my site, with lots of photos: http://tabalabs.com.br Want more? :oD -----REPLY----- Hi Alexandre, We are working on an N8VEM home computer design which will be BIOS compatible with MSX-1. The hardware is somewhat compatible but we are making some changes due to parts obsolescence, etc. For example replacing the parallel matrix keyboard with a PS/2 keyboard port, adding IDE, SD, and floppy controller, etc. One of the builders has demonstrated the MSX CBIOS using the N8VEM SBC and SCG (sprite color graphics and sound board). That will be the basis for the new home computer except it will be based on the Z8S180, 1MB SRAM, 512K Flash ROM, TMS9918 VDP, AY-3-8910, and various IO ports. The MSX CBIOS is in the MSX BIOS folder. If you are interested in working on a homebrew MSX computer please stop by the N8VEM project. There is a folder on the N8VEM wiki called "home computer" with the schematics and PCB layout. The prototype PCB is in trace route optimization right now and once some of the other projects clear out I am planning on a small run of prototype PCBs for initial build and test. Probably in a couple of months or so. Thanks and have happy holidays! Andrew Lynch From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat Dec 25 13:03:38 2010 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 14:03:38 -0500 Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest Message-ID: <3D469B1B62F545B0800D0C3F6EF662DE@andrewdesktop> C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com Sat Dec 25 12:02:22 CST 2010 [snip] Yep. No offense to the list participants, but I gave up on selling kits. Given the hobbyist nature of my work, kits required too much of my limited hobbyist time. Given the assembled nature of the unit, I can use extremely large density devices with no issues. [snip] > I am not familiar with the SuperCPU but based on quick web search it appears > to be roughly Eurocard sized. Good luck with your project. It is rather large as well. Though, with today's integration options, it too could be constructed in the smaller space of a CBM game cartridge. In fact, it would have to be to bring the cost to something reasonably. People was apprehensive about a $300.00 20MHz accelerator in the late '90s, there's no way they'd pay that much now. Jim -----REPLY----- Hi Jim, I can certainly relate. For the N8VEM project, I have never offered kits and probably won't ever. All I offer is the PCB, schematics, PCB layout, and a parts list. I encourage people to make their own boards and only rarely supply some hard to get parts on an exception only basis. Commonly available parts are entirely up to the builder to source and supply. If you have the pre-made PCB and a parts list what is the difference between that and a kit? You get the PCB and then order the parts from Jameco. Dump all the parts on your workbench and call it a kit! Read the schematic and follow the PCB layout. It doesn't get much easier than that! Making kits is going to eat up all of your time and money with little or no return and huge frustration. It just isn't practical IMO and can scarcely be called "homebrew computing" when all the parts arrive in one bag. Admittedly, using a pre-made PCB is a bit of a stretch too but it is a reasonable compromise to get more hobbyists involved. I think the PCB is the biggest barrier to entry (perf board wire wrap, point to point soldering, or pre-made PCBs) for new hobbyists to homebrew computing. I certainly wish you the best of luck with your project if you decide to do it. There doesn't seem to be a huge groundswell of interest here but it is hard to make any reliable judgement based on comments on CCTALK though. Maybe spin up a few prototype boards and sprinkle them to some experienced builders and see what sort of reaction it generates would be a good market research? That's what I do. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch PS, I just got word that one of the N8VEM builder who is lead on the S-100 68K CPU board has completed assembly of the first unit. No test yet but things are certainly looking good. I am very excited about the S-100 68K CPU board. Hopefully build and test goes OK and we can release that board before too long. From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Dec 25 13:11:12 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 14:11:12 -0500 Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D1641D0.2070000@verizon.net> On 12/25/2010 01:25 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I suspect that the reason for this may have been that the original >> CP/M was done on computers with 0 based RAM and methods to >> load code at 0 on boot. > I beleive the historay can be traced back to the MCS8i system. This, > AFAIK, never had disks, and never ran CP/M. But it's 8080-based and > amazingly it has a CPM-like IOBYTE at location 3. > > This machine has RAM at location 0 by default. The thing is that the 8080 > starts executing at location 0, so by puittign RAM there you could enter > a program (or at least a jJMP instruction) at location 0, hit reset, and > run it. That's what you did on the MCS8i. Since a jump is 3 bytes long, > it occupied locations 0.1.2, so location 3 was the first 'free' location, > hence used for IOBYTE. To run the ROM monitor on the MSC8i, you toggled > C3 00 38 (jump to 0x3800) into the first 3 locations, reset, and let it run. > > The MDS800, for all it didn't have a front panel, kept the same sort of > memory map (for good reasons IMHO). > > FWIW, I have both machines with manuals... > >> Adding hardware to do the ROM/RAM transfer on boot is relatively >> easy with the addition of a 7474. Most machines decode a I/O > I've seen it done in all sorts of ways. Including a little state machine > that picks up the first 3 read cycles after a reset, disables data > buffers, etc, so they never go outside the CPU board, and forces a jump > instruciton onto the processor data lines. Or, as you say, having a This is the common non rom approach for most Z80 S100 cpus. Another is to invert A15, 14, 13, 12 on reset and hold it with a D-flop, then the first bytes of Rom do a jump to F003 where the rom address decode clear the FF with the PC holding F003 where the actual start of the monitor is. My favorite for 8085 and Z80 systems I build is to put EProm/flash/EEROM at 0000 and use a port with a latch to map a ram into 0000 space after loading from rom to high ram. this works very nicely with 32K Rom/Eprom and Ram devices commonly around. it also allows the rom to be large as 32K (or 32K pages) to allow things like rom disk and other address space stretching tricks. There are many more ways to skin the problem of ram at zero and reset starting the PC at 0000. Allison From brain at jbrain.com Sat Dec 25 13:27:53 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 13:27:53 -0600 Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: <3D469B1B62F545B0800D0C3F6EF662DE@andrewdesktop> References: <3D469B1B62F545B0800D0C3F6EF662DE@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <4D1645B9.4070600@jbrain.com> On 12/25/2010 1:03 PM, Andrew Lynch wrote: > > If you have the pre-made PCB and a parts list what is the difference between > that and a kit? You get the PCB and then order the parts from Jameco. Dump > all the parts on your workbench and call it a kit! Read the schematic and > follow the PCB layout. It doesn't get much easier than that! I meant that I offer assembled units only. > I certainly wish you the best of luck with your project if you decide to do > it. There doesn't seem to be a huge groundswell of interest here but it is > hard to make any reliable judgement based on comments on CCTALK though. > Maybe spin up a few prototype boards and sprinkle them to some experienced > builders and see what sort of reaction it generates would be a good market > research? That's what I do. My main concern was the BIOS. I can layout the board, source the parts, and construct the prototypes, but I'm only familiar enough with Z80 to code up some extremely simple test programs. A Z80 BIOS would be way beyond my capabilities, and a second version that works in conjunction with IO coming from a C64 or C128 would be more complicated yet. I'll see what I can source relative to the hardware design. Jim From brain at jbrain.com Sat Dec 25 13:31:13 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 13:31:13 -0600 Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: <4D1641D0.2070000@verizon.net> References: <4D1641D0.2070000@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4D164681.3030606@jbrain.com> On 12/25/2010 1:11 PM, allison wrote: > > > There are many more ways to skin the problem of ram at zero and reset > starting the > PC at 0000. I like the latch idea, where it resets to map the ROM into 0000, but the code can then latch the RAM in. As well, this would allow the code to bring the ROM back into the map at the lower space if needed. From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Dec 25 13:30:13 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 14:30:13 -0500 Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: <4D15C4E2.27777.62A0A8@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4D15FF53.9030906@verizon.net> <4D15C4E2.27777.62A0A8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D164645.6000907@verizon.net> On 12/25/2010 01:18 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 25 Dec 2010 at 9:27, allison wrote: > >> 8080, 8085, NsC800, Z80, or Z180 cpu. The prefered CPU is z80 as it's >> easy to interface and there are some CP/M apps that require it. > If you're starting off from scratch and want the smallest parts-count > system, why not an eZ80 Acclaim? 256KB of flash, 24-bit external > memory interface, built-in 100BaseT ethernet MAC, 2 UARTS, IrDA, lots > of GPIO pins, SPI, I2C and a PLL clock generator good to 50MHz as > well as ICE support and separately-powered RTC. Still Z80-compatible > (or the enhanced instruction set if you want it). > > I suspect that you could dump most of what you need in the way of > CP/M programs into the on-chip flash. Add an external SRAM and > external interface "glue" and you're done, but for the programming. > > --Chuck > You could if the EZ80 was compatible, in the extended mode its a different beast. Since most CP/M apps are available as source it's doable and could result in an interesting hybrid. Really depends if you want to build with available through hole parts and simple design or do a new and different thing. Neither is wrong, just different paths. Generally, a minimal cp/m system needs about 128K of "disk" for common utilities and some tools. However thats a bit minimal. I find none of the CP/M sytems I've used {still use} over the years are limited if the disk is cramped. Whats cramped? Under about 500K. At about 1MB it's decent, assuming you have at least 128K or more of RW media. With large rams, CF or SD that can easily be large enough to exceed the limits of standard CP/M2 (16 devices of 8MB each or 128MB. However I've been using large IDEs and CFs (16mb to 500mb) for years and just mapping them in 8mb chunks (external partition table, a new drive every +16384 LBA) and a simple utility to remap physical to logical. the result is tiny, fast and runs anything CP/M. The biggest issue is not the memory or mass storage system anymore. It's IO, such as serial line for terminal (did that using FTDI serial to usb) I've done both bit bash serial and various serial devices (8250, SIO, 8251). I've also tried memory mapped (16x64 like PT s100 board) video, 8Lx40char LCD (cramped), and so on. The ideal here would be USB keyboard input (mac mini key board is very short) and VGA video where the logic is I'm always near a VGA display and a USB keyboard. Then with CMOS Z80 and and other parts, coompact portable is doable. I believe something that is portable (battery or wall wart power) is likely to appeal more to many with the right IO. Allison From brain at jbrain.com Sat Dec 25 13:33:33 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 13:33:33 -0600 Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: <4D1628C3.20600@neurotica.com> References: <4D156AF8.9010505@neurotica.com> <4D157200.4090703@jbrain.com> <4D1628C3.20600@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D16470D.7070309@jbrain.com> On 12/25/2010 11:24 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 12/24/10 11:24 PM, Jim Brain wrote: >> Is there a link handy to a minimal schematic. Alexandre's question >> piqued my curiosity, so I went looking, thinking there would be a ez80 >> Acclaim + SRAM + SD, using the RS232 for a terminal. I can't find >> anything that minimal. > > I could draw one up. I would appreciate that. > > For the eZ80Acclaim! chips, there's at least one port of CP/M that > I've seen floating around. Those chips are pretty easy to design > with; I've done a few commercial designs with the eZ80F91 (the member > of the family that runs at 50MHz and has an on-chip Ethernet controller). > > In any case, I have done several BIOSes (including two for homebrew > Z80 SBCs) and can help with that. That would be grand. There is a small but passionate group of folks who would enjoy this, but I'm not a BIOS person, I barely know Z80 assembler. From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Dec 25 13:35:41 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 14:35:41 -0500 Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D16478D.9000503@verizon.net> On 12/25/2010 01:11 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> Or on the Epson RC20! >>> The Epson TF20 (floppy drive for the HX20, PX4, PX8, etc) contains a Z80 >>> and 64K RAM. Oh, and a boot ROM that is mapped out after booting. I have >>> never analyhsed the system disk in detail, but I have a feeling this >>> thing runs CP/M internally. >>> >> The PX-8 is a CP/M system based on Rom and Ram disk with >> hooks for external extension for both greater rom/ram disk or >> the floppy device. > Sure, as is the PX4 (I have both). The HX20, of course is not (it uses a > pair of 6303 microprocessors). But the 5.25" floppy drive appears to run > CP/M (or something close) on its intenral processor. The 3.5 drive, BTW, > doesn't... > Ah HUH? Speaking for the PX-8 (I have three plus wedges and drives) the base PX8 runs CP/M with a menu program on boot. If you escape from the menu it's stock CP/M. ti's clever for it's time in that the BIOS is complex and complete enough to handle a raft of storage devices be they based on R0M, RAM or a real floppy. As it turns out they made the floppy smart so that some of bios is in the floppy and the system can do directed calls to it so the main unit is relieved of some of the work. So the Floppy for the PX8 is specialized for a CP/M host it's not running CP/M itself as there is not enough ram alone to qualify. Allison > -tony > From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Dec 25 13:39:39 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 11:39:39 -0800 Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: <4D1628C3.20600@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 12/25/10 9:24 AM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > On 12/24/10 11:24 PM, Jim Brain wrote: >> Is there a link handy to a minimal schematic. Alexandre's question >> piqued my curiosity, so I went looking, thinking there would be a ez80 >> Acclaim + SRAM + SD, using the RS232 for a terminal. I can't find >> anything that minimal. > > I could draw one up. > > For the eZ80Acclaim! chips, there's at least one port of CP/M that > I've seen floating around. Those chips are pretty easy to design with; > I've done a few commercial designs with the eZ80F91 (the member of the > family that runs at 50MHz and has an on-chip Ethernet controller). > >> If true (I'm happy to be wrong), I agree a small board with the minimal >> components might be useful to a wide range of people. But, it would >> require someone who can write a BDOS for it. > > BIOS, not BDOS...The BDOS is supplied as a standard, not-modifiable > part of CP/M. In any case, I have done several BIOSes (including two > for homebrew Z80 SBCs) and can help with that. > > -Dave How are you at Z80 disassembly? It would be nice to get the ATR8000 BIOS disassembled and turned into something somewhat modular so it could be redesigned with modern parts :) From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Dec 25 13:52:55 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 14:52:55 -0500 Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: <4D1628C3.20600@neurotica.com> References: <4D156AF8.9010505@neurotica.com> <4D157200.4090703@jbrain.com> <4D1628C3.20600@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D164B97.2060001@verizon.net> On 12/25/2010 12:24 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 12/24/10 11:24 PM, Jim Brain wrote: >> Is there a link handy to a minimal schematic. Alexandre's question >> piqued my curiosity, so I went looking, thinking there would be a ez80 >> Acclaim + SRAM + SD, using the RS232 for a terminal. I can't find >> anything that minimal. > > I could draw one up. > > For the eZ80Acclaim! chips, there's at least one port of CP/M that > I've seen floating around. Those chips are pretty easy to design > with; I've done a few commercial designs with the eZ80F91 (the member > of the family that runs at 50MHz and has an on-chip Ethernet controller). > I looked at that port, it's not Z80 compatible. CP/M and all had to be re-assembled for the eZ80. Same would be required to run many of the apps and utilities. >> If true (I'm happy to be wrong), I agree a small board with the minimal >> components might be useful to a wide range of people. But, it would >> require someone who can write a BDOS for it. > > BIOS, not BDOS...The BDOS is supplied as a standard, not-modifiable > part of CP/M. In any case, I have done several BIOSes (including two > for homebrew Z80 SBCs) and can help with that. > The CP/M system is three parts. CCP (console monitor or user interface), BDOS (actual device and files system logical interface and applications interface), BIOS( hardware abstraction unique to the local hardware to match the abstracted interface of the BDOS). User usually did not rewrite the CCP or BDOS just relocate it with MOVCPM. The BIOS was unique to the local system and matched the calls for console in, console out, console status, same for printer, punch, reader , and then the interface to the mass storage (setdma, SETtrack, Setsector, SECTRAN(logical to physical translate for sector skewing on floppies) READ, WRITE. FOR 8085/Z80 the CCP and BDOS are a give block of binary (we officially have sources now) and the BIOS is written as needed. A BIOS can be complex or simple depending on hardware and user desires. Oddly it takes more code to do something like a floppy as you have to handhold the FDC chip all the way. smarter devices like IDE, CF, SD are easier and the only real task is to match the CP/M logical 128byte block to the devices 512byte standard block (physical sector). The latter is fairly easy, the code is even in the CP/M alteration guide. I've implemented CPm on Z80 with less than 16 pcs TTL, memory, EPROM and CPU total and that was using 32K ram x2 (there are 64K parts!). The IDE, CF or SD interfaces can be pretty trivial with SD and CF being preferred as CF does do an 8bit mode, and SD is a serial interface with only a few lines. That leaves the more interesting IO, user console, and ports to run a printer or communicate with maybe a PC. [note one port with the right protocol can do all that if the host is playing terminal, printer, storage]. Allison From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Dec 25 13:58:58 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 12:58:58 -0700 Subject: Undocumented 8080 instructions? In-Reply-To: <4D15C271.753.5915C9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D159DAE.8060702@brouhaha.com> <4D15C271.753.5915C9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D164D02.6030004@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > To the best of my recollection, the undocumented 8080 > opcodes are, by and large, no-ops or redundancies (i.e. they do the > same as a close-valued opcode probably from incomplete PLA decoding). [...] > No startling new "triple precision divide" instructions. I wasn't expecting any. The reason I'm asking is to be able to replicate the behavior in a simulator, in case any software happened to use them (intentionally or otherwise). Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Dec 25 14:02:45 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 13:02:45 -0700 Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D164DE5.5020401@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > I beleive the historay can be traced back to the MCS8i system. This, > AFAIK, never had disks, and never ran CP/M. But it's 8080-based and > amazingly it has a CPM-like IOBYTE at location 3. It's not that the Intel development systems had a CP/M-link IOBYTE. It's that CP/M has an Intel MDS-like IOBYTE. Remember that Gary Kildall wrote software for Intel before writing CP/M, and that CP/M was written to run on an MDS. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 25 14:10:38 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 12:10:38 -0800 Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: <4D164645.6000907@verizon.net> References: , <4D15C4E2.27777.62A0A8@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D164645.6000907@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4D15DF3E.7921.C99623@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Dec 2010 at 14:30, allison wrote: > You could if the EZ80 was compatible, in the extended mode its a > different beast. Since most CP/M apps are available as source > it's doable and could result in an interesting hybrid. Since the eZ80 also has SPI, interfacing to a SDHC card is easy and gives one gigabytes of storage--a virtual embarrassment of storage. I seem to recall, however, that the single-density Osborne 1 existed with two 90KB floppies. > The biggest issue is not the memory or mass storage system anymore. > It's IO, such as serial line for terminal (did that using FTDI serial > to usb) I've done both bit bash serial and various serial devices > (8250, SIO, 8251). I've also tried memory mapped (16x64 like PT s100 > board) video, 8Lx40char LCD (cramped), and so on. The ideal here > would be USB keyboard input (mac mini key board is very short) and VGA > video where the logic is I'm always near a VGA display and a USB > keyboard. Then with CMOS Z80 and and other parts, coompact portable > is doable. I believe something that is portable (battery or wall wart > power) is likely to appeal more to many with the right IO. The eZ80 Acclaim has UARTs and I think there are more recent members of the family with USB. Of course, making use of the 100BaseT ethernet capabilities would seem to make I/O support rather academic. But you're probably right about people not wanting to deal with a 144 pin QFP and that's probably the root of the matter. One could probably do a good job of running 8-bit CP/M with scarcely more than a suitably-equipped ARM CPU running emulation code and maybe some external flash device. But that would probably really rub some semsitivities the wrong way. All the best, --Chuck From brain at jbrain.com Sat Dec 25 14:11:19 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 14:11:19 -0600 Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: <4D164B97.2060001@verizon.net> References: <4D156AF8.9010505@neurotica.com> <4D157200.4090703@jbrain.com> <4D1628C3.20600@neurotica.com> <4D164B97.2060001@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4D164FE7.6020402@jbrain.com> On 12/25/2010 1:52 PM, allison wrote: > I looked at that port, it's not Z80 compatible. CP/M and all had to > be re-assembled > for the eZ80. Same would be required to run many of the apps and > utilities. Well, that's a disappointment. It looked like such a time saver. > > > I've implemented CPm on Z80 with less than 16 pcs TTL, memory, EPROM > and CPU total and that was using > 32K ram x2 (there are 64K parts!). The IDE, CF or SD interfaces can > be pretty trivial with SD and CF being > preferred as CF does do an 8bit mode, and SD is a serial interface > with only a few lines. That leaves the > more interesting IO, user console, and ports to run a printer or > communicate with maybe a PC. [note > one port with the right protocol can do all that if the host is > playing terminal, printer, storage]. Maybe I should just see if there is a schematic of a minimal Z80 system (fewest ICs possible) and go from there. Jim From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 25 14:18:57 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 12:18:57 -0800 Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: <4D164DE5.5020401@brouhaha.com> References: , <4D164DE5.5020401@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4D15E131.18922.D13204@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Dec 2010 at 13:02, Eric Smith wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > I beleive the historay can be traced back to the MCS8i system. > This, > AFAIK, never had disks, and never ran CP/M. But it's > 8080-based and > amazingly it has a CPM-like IOBYTE at location 3. > > It's not that the Intel development systems had a CP/M-link IOBYTE. > It's that CP/M has an Intel MDS-like IOBYTE. Remember that Gary > Kildall wrote software for Intel before writing CP/M, and that CP/M > was written to run on an MDS ...and IOBYTE wasn't universally implemented among OEMs. It was an optional feature of the BIOS in the early days of CP/M. I can probably find some words in the System Alteration Guide to that effect, if anyone's interested. Other than STAT and PIP, I'm not aware of any standard CP/M utility that cares about it--or supports the additional "extended" device names. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 25 14:20:06 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 12:20:06 -0800 Subject: Undocumented 8080 instructions? In-Reply-To: <4D164D02.6030004@brouhaha.com> References: <4D159DAE.8060702@brouhaha.com>, <4D15C271.753.5915C9@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D164D02.6030004@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4D15E176.3994.D24066@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Dec 2010 at 12:58, Eric Smith wrote: > I wasn't expecting any. The reason I'm asking is to be able to > replicate the behavior in a simulator, in case any software happened > to use them (intentionally or otherwise). My own 8080 systems have been so long out of use that they probably aren't functional. But if anyone has one kicking around, I can probably dig up the code I used to test things. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 25 14:05:43 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 20:05:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: <4D16478D.9000503@verizon.net> from "allison" at Dec 25, 10 02:35:41 pm Message-ID: > > pair of 6303 microprocessors). But the 5.25" floppy drive appears to run > > CP/M (or something close) on its intenral processor. The 3.5 drive, BTW, > > doesn't... > > > Ah HUH? > > Speaking for the PX-8 (I have three plus wedges and drives) the base PX8 > runs CP/M with a menu program on boot. If you escape from the menu it's Indeed... > stock CP/M. ti's clever for it's time in that the BIOS is complex and > complete > enough to handle a raft of storage devices be they based on R0M, RAM or > a real floppy. As it turns out they made the floppy smart so that some of Not forgettign the microcassette tape,. which is trated somewhat like a slow floppy drive by the system. > bios is in the floppy and the system can do directed calls to it so the main > unit is relieved of some of the work. > > So the Floppy for the PX8 is specialized for a CP/M host it's not running > CP/M itself as there is not enough ram alone to qualify. Have you ever looked inside the TF20 daul 5.25" floppy unit? I beleive schematics are on the web somewhere... There is a heck of a lot of elkectronics inside. One large PCB containg a Z80, 2K (IIRC) boot ROM ()with logic to switch it out after booting), 64K DRAM, floppy controller, a duaghterboard with a 7201 serial chip, etc. >From what others have been saying that's easily enough to run CP/M. Note, I am not talking about the CP/.M that runs in the PX8 or wherever. I am talking about the Z80 in the TF20 itself. And the TF20 is not specialised for a CP/M host. The original application was for the HX20, which as I said has a poair of 6303 CPUs and does not run CP/M. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 25 14:34:32 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 12:34:32 -0800 Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: <4D164B97.2060001@verizon.net> References: , <4D1628C3.20600@neurotica.com>, <4D164B97.2060001@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4D15E4D8.19600.DF77C3@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Dec 2010 at 14:52, allison wrote: > I looked at that port, it's not Z80 compatible. CP/M and all had to > be re-assembled for the eZ80. Same would be required to run many of > the apps and utilities. I've looked at the eZ80 CPU documentation; do you have any information on what differences there are? From the manual, it seems that one can opt for extended 16/24 bit mode or standard 64K Z80 mode- -and switch between them. I've also run across a couple of web posts that indicate that the Acclaim does in fact run CP/M. So I'm mystified. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 25 14:33:18 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 20:33:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: <4D164DE5.5020401@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Dec 25, 10 01:02:45 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > I beleive the historay can be traced back to the MCS8i system. This, > > AFAIK, never had disks, and never ran CP/M. But it's 8080-based and > > amazingly it has a CPM-like IOBYTE at location 3. > > It's not that the Intel development systems had a CP/M-link IOBYTE. > It's that CP/M has an Intel MDS-like IOBYTE. Remember that Gary Kildall > wrote software for Intel before writing CP/M, and that CP/M was written > to run on an MDS. Sure. The MCS8i and DMS800 came before CP/M... The only reason I said 'CPM-like' is that few people hwere have read the MCS8i monitor soruces.... Rather more know CPM. -tony From dmabry at mich.com Sat Dec 25 14:38:05 2010 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 15:38:05 -0500 Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: References: from "Alexandre Message-ID: <4D16562D.70203@mich.com> dwight elvey said the following on 12/25/2010 10:30 AM: > > ---snip--- > > Hi > I suspect that the reason for this may have been that the original > CP/M was done on computers with 0 based RAM and methods to > load code at 0 on boot. > I don't recall how the MDS800s did this but I do know that early > work on CP/M was done with one of Torode's early controllers. > These were DMA and had there own state machine that > could auto transfer the first boot sector into RAM on reset, independent > of what processor was in the machines. > I have one of his later controllers in my IMSAI and that is how it > works. > Adding hardware to do the ROM/RAM transfer on boot is relatively > easy with the addition of a 7474. Most machines decode a I/O > address. You use the first I/O to toggle the 7474 and that turns > on the RAM and the ROM off. Reset is connected to the 7474. > Most ROM and RAM boards use some type of comparator to > determine the addess ( a 74688 was what I recall ). Normally > the input was tied to ground. This could be tied to the 7474. > On newer boards, there was the phantom signal. > The boot ROM would transfer all the needed ROM to RAM > and then switch to all RAM. > Dwight > > While I remember, at least I *think* I remember, I'll fill in one question here. The MDS800 had a switch on the front panel called "boot." When in the up position it switched a small EPROM (1702) into low memory that had the initial boot code in it. That was enough to load the first track of the floppy disk into RAM. That boot switch only affected the *read* cycles. *Writes* were still deposited into the RAM at low memory. Once the boot code from the disk was read into low RAM the execution from the 1702 went into a tight loop waiting. There was an indication of that in an LED on the front panel, INT2 as I recall. The user would toggle the "boot" switch and execution would continue but now from the ram that was just loaded. The boot process would finish by bringing in the operating system from the disk, either ISIS-II, CP/M, FORTH, or whatever you were using. Pretty sure I remember that correctly. Wish I never sold mine. It was definitely a classic! Dave From feedle at feedle.net Sat Dec 25 15:26:26 2010 From: feedle at feedle.net (C Sullivan / A Baumann) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 13:26:26 -0800 Subject: C64/C128 CP/M Cartridge Interest? In-Reply-To: <4D16244B.6030802@neurotica.com> References: <201012240327.oBO3ROuE020438@floodgap.com><57779CE227E849B89908C5653C1582BA@dell8300> <4D14F5AF.2030901@brouhaha.com> <776F79ADFCC44503B0E929B17AEF4CF3@dell8300> <4D150FF9.90900@neurotica.com> <5A154A64-9ECC-485D-A664-303D3A2663EA@feedle.net> <4D16244B.6030802@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <7E973E0E-3CA1-44F7-AE5D-E5286C9EE409@feedle.net> On Dec 25, 2010, at 9:05 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Yes, a very nice design. Kinda tough to get ahold of though. (for now anyway) Um.. you do realize I'm one of the two people who sells the P112 kits. We tried to take orders for a production run, but didn't have enough takers this time around to fund a run. We do have a small number of kits available, however at the moment I don't know how many of them are spoken for. Contact Dave Griffith (he's on this list, or at his website at frotz.homeunix.org/p112) if you're interested. Also, as I stated a couple of months back, there are blank boards and a very limited number of the surface-mount components available direct from me (http://p112.feedle.net/). I haven't been able to follow this thread quite like I would have hoped: but, it's worth noting that if people are interested in a basic CP/M design the P112 is about as basic as one can get, and is about as "open" of a design as one can get. The challenge that we have right now is that the FDC chip is an obsolete part, and I don't think there's a drop-in replacement. It might be easier to see if the existing P112 design can be worked into a different controller, or if a custom (preferably 'open source' licensed) new part can be engineered. It's a bit out of my expertise, but I think I can safely speak for Dave and say that any work towards a drop-in replacement with minimal re-engineering of either the board or the ZSystem software would probably be warmly welcomed... From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Dec 25 15:28:44 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 16:28:44 -0500 Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D16620C.5070202@verizon.net> On 12/25/2010 03:05 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> pair of 6303 microprocessors). But the 5.25" floppy drive appears to run >>> CP/M (or something close) on its intenral processor. The 3.5 drive, BTW, >>> doesn't... >>> >> Ah HUH? >> >> Speaking for the PX-8 (I have three plus wedges and drives) the base PX8 >> runs CP/M with a menu program on boot. If you escape from the menu it's > Indeed... > >> stock CP/M. ti's clever for it's time in that the BIOS is complex and >> complete >> enough to handle a raft of storage devices be they based on R0M, RAM or >> a real floppy. As it turns out they made the floppy smart so that some of > Not forgettign the microcassette tape,. which is trated somewhat like a > slow floppy drive by the system. > >> bios is in the floppy and the system can do directed calls to it so the main >> unit is relieved of some of the work. >> >> So the Floppy for the PX8 is specialized for a CP/M host it's not running >> CP/M itself as there is not enough ram alone to qualify. > Have you ever looked inside the TF20 daul 5.25" floppy unit? I beleive > schematics are on the web somewhere... > > There is a heck of a lot of elkectronics inside. One large PCB containg a > Z80, 2K (IIRC) boot ROM ()with logic to switch it out after booting), 64K > DRAM, floppy controller, a duaghterboard with a 7201 serial chip, etc. > > From what others have been saying that's easily enough to run CP/M. Note, > I am not talking about the CP/.M that runs in the PX8 or wherever. I am > talking about the Z80 in the TF20 itself. > I have the portable battery powered single 3.5" floppy (PF10) and it's not so full of ram. I also have the full manuals for the system, peripherals, both tech and programming. On occasion I hack peripherals for them. Allison > And the TF20 is not specialised for a CP/M host. The original application > was for the HX20, which as I said has a poair of 6303 CPUs and does not > run CP/M. > > -tony > From ken at seefried.com Sat Dec 25 16:13:49 2010 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 22:13:49 +0000 Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest Message-ID: FWIW... From: allison > Minimal system: > > 8080, 8085, NsC800, Z80, or Z180 cpu. The prefered CPU is z80 as > it's easy to interface and there are some CP/M apps that require it. > > 64K ram, (technically cp/m runs in 20k or more but useful apps are > minimally 48K) > > Boot rom(eprom/flash) that maps out of the 0000h startup address > > Mass storage, this can be floppy, CF, SD, Or some form of rom/ram to > look like disk. > > User IO, typically a serial line for a terminal can be a memory mapped video > and keyboard or similar. > For my high school senior project, I designed and built essentially this, significantly over 20 years ago. Z80, 64k RAM (4 x 16Kx8), serial port, simple relocating boot ROM, relevant CBIOS, floppy. I had a TRS-80 4P running Montezuma CP/M (thanks, Dad) to write code on and a random EPROM writer to program 2764s. Got it to boot CP/M in a semester, working an hour or more daily, 5 days a week. I'd also generally figured out how to interface, for local reasons, to STD-Bus for expansion, but never actually implimented it. Had an Intel bubble memory dev kit (128k), but also never got around to it. Went to college, had Vaxen, 3B2s and early Suns with Unix and C, with a sprinkle of Pascal, Modula-2 & Ada followed by Symbolics and Xerox AI machines. And I relized how much more interested I was in solving big problems than figuring out what problems I could fit into tiny computers, and never looked back. Maybe I'll see if I can find the remaining bits and notes in the basement one day. Point being, it's an imminently doable project, of variable utility these days, and there's a ton of existing work that can be leveraged. KJ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Dec 25 19:11:37 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 17:11:37 -0800 Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: <4D16562D.70203@mich.com> References: from "Alexandre, , <4D16562D.70203@mich.com> Message-ID: > Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 15:38:05 -0500 > From: dmabry at mich.com > To: > Subject: Re: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest > > dwight elvey said the following on 12/25/2010 10:30 AM: > > > > ---snip--- > > > > Hi > > I suspect that the reason for this may have been that the original > > CP/M was done on computers with 0 based RAM and methods to > > load code at 0 on boot. > > I don't recall how the MDS800s did this but I do know that early > > work on CP/M was done with one of Torode's early controllers. > > These were DMA and had there own state machine that > > could auto transfer the first boot sector into RAM on reset, independent > > of what processor was in the machines. > > I have one of his later controllers in my IMSAI and that is how it > > works. > > Adding hardware to do the ROM/RAM transfer on boot is relatively > > easy with the addition of a 7474. Most machines decode a I/O > > address. You use the first I/O to toggle the 7474 and that turns > > on the RAM and the ROM off. Reset is connected to the 7474. > > Most ROM and RAM boards use some type of comparator to > > determine the addess ( a 74688 was what I recall ). Normally > > the input was tied to ground. This could be tied to the 7474. > > On newer boards, there was the phantom signal. > > The boot ROM would transfer all the needed ROM to RAM > > and then switch to all RAM. > > Dwight > > > > > > While I remember, at least I *think* I remember, I'll fill in one > question here. The MDS800 had a switch on the front panel called > "boot." When in the up position it switched a small EPROM (1702) into > low memory that had the initial boot code in it. That was enough to > load the first track of the floppy disk into RAM. That boot switch only > affected the *read* cycles. *Writes* were still deposited into the RAM > at low memory. > > Once the boot code from the disk was read into low RAM the execution > from the 1702 went into a tight loop waiting. There was an indication > of that in an LED on the front panel, INT2 as I recall. The user would > toggle the "boot" switch and execution would continue but now from the > ram that was just loaded. The boot process would finish by bringing in > the operating system from the disk, either ISIS-II, CP/M, FORTH, or > whatever you were using. > > Pretty sure I remember that correctly. Wish I never sold mine. It was > definitely a classic! > > Dave > > Hi Dave I think you are correct. It has been a long time since I booted an MDS800. Still, it is well documented that the early Kildall's machines used Torode's disk controller that would DMA the first sector into RAM on reset. This was before he had a MDS800 as was used for later versions of CP/M. I would guess that Kildall's first machines had no ROMs in them at all. Dwight From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Dec 25 19:18:20 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 17:18:20 -0800 Subject: Undocumented 8080 instructions? In-Reply-To: <4D164D02.6030004@brouhaha.com> References: <4D159DAE.8060702@brouhaha.com>, <4D15C271.753.5915C9@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D164D02.6030004@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > From: eric at brouhaha.com > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > To the best of my recollection, the undocumented 8080 > > opcodes are, by and large, no-ops or redundancies (i.e. they do the > > same as a close-valued opcode probably from incomplete PLA decoding). > [...] > > No startling new "triple precision divide" instructions. > > I wasn't expecting any. The reason I'm asking is to be able to > replicate the behavior in a simulator, in case any software happened to > use them (intentionally or otherwise). > > Eric > Hi It seemed like I recalled the NEC 8080's had some extras but it must have been brain rot on my part. I have one of their 8080's in my Poly88. It is quite easy to single step with this computer and display all the registers, memory pointed to by double registers and flags. I found nothing unusual happening on any of the other unused instructions. I have a newer AMD8080 I guess I could try some day. The Poly88 had one of the best software monitors I've ever seen on an early uP system. Dwight From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 25 21:07:28 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 19:07:28 -0800 Subject: Undocumented 8080 instructions? In-Reply-To: References: <4D159DAE.8060702@brouhaha.com>, <4D164D02.6030004@brouhaha.com>, Message-ID: <4D1640F0.21878.2473729@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Dec 2010 at 17:18, dwight elvey wrote: > It seemed like I recalled the NEC 8080's had some extras but it > must have been brain rot on my part. I have one of their 8080's > in my Poly88. It is quite easy to single step with this computer > and display all the registers, memory pointed to by double > registers and flags. I found nothing unusual happening on any > of the other unused instructions. I have a newer AMD8080 I guess > I could try some day. I seem to recall that the problem with the NEC 8080 was somewhat different treatment of the status flags. Apparently, NEC thought to "improve" on the 8080's treatment of the flags. Good idea, but... IMSAI let some of its early CPU boards out with the NEC CPU. Later, I think they used up their stock of the NEC chips by using them in their floppy controller. Later revisions of the NEC 8080 (e.g. 8080AF) conformed with Intel's interpretation. I don't recall any added instructions, however. --Chuck From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Sun Dec 26 03:58:06 2010 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (Fred Jan Kraan) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2010 10:58:06 +0100 Subject: Epson CP/M floppy drives. Was: C64/C128 CP/M Cartridge Interest? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D1711AE.4030601@xs4all.nl> > So the Floppy for the PX8 is specialized for a CP/M host it's not running > CP/M itself as there is not enough ram alone to qualify. To clarify the Epson floppy drive issue, there were three products: TF-20 - Z80 based, 64k RAM, 2k ROM, boot from disk TF-15 - Z80 based, 2k RAM, 8k ROM, runs from ROM PF-10 - 6303 based, 2k RAM, 8k ROM, runs from ROM The TF-20 supported the commands used by the HX-20 and the PX-4/8 The TF-15 and PF-10 only supported the PX-4/8 commands. The TF-20 used the boot tracks of the disk to load some OS and a program which made it a serial 'file server' for the host. The OS could very well be a slimmed down version of CP/M. The HX-20 commands are file based and were issued mainly from Basic. The Basic extension is also on the boot disk. The PX-4/8 commands are sector based and issued from CP/M. All devices used the same protocol, epspd and baud rate. The same protocol was used internally in the HX-20/PX-8 between the various processors. The HX-20/PX-8 external video device also used it. The TF-15 and PF-10 are both ROM based. The TF-15 used the same housing as the TF-20. As this resembled the QX-10 computer, the origin of the TF-15/20 product was probably to provide two extra floppies for this computer. For those interested http://www.xs4all.nl/~fjkraan/comp/tf20/ contains some info on epsp and the TF-20 boot disk. Fred Jan From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Dec 25 08:23:25 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 09:23:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: C64/C128 CP/M Cartridge Interest? In-Reply-To: <4D157503.4070909@jbrain.com> References: <201012240327.oBO3ROuE020438@floodgap.com> <57779CE227E849B89908C5653C1582BA@dell8300><4D14F5AF.2030901@brouhaha.com> <4D1511AE.5030804@jbrain.com> <9F9BD2006D7E4712AB4235B8C7C38962@portajara> <4D157503.4070909@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Dec 2010, Jim Brain wrote: > * I so want to start learning Verilog. I thought, if I got a > basic environment going, I could then take a look at virtualizing > the pieces to an FPGA connected to the C128/C64. But, since I > know little of Z80 and CP/M (having used it long ago), I thought > going to FPGAs from nothing was too large a leap. Learning is always a valid motivation for a project. > * The next step after that is an accelerated CP/M. This plays in > with my hope to obtain the rights to the SuperCPU for the > C64/C128. It lacked accelerated Z80/CP/M compatibility, which I > thought I could add, though maybe not. Now you're talking! I suspect you'd have considerably more commercial success with a reissue of the SuperCPU. If you use an actual WDC 65816 with verilog-based FPGA glue logic it should be a relatively straightforward job. With a large enough FPGA, you might well be able to synthesize both the 65816 and a Z80. I suspect the latter approach might be cheaper in the long run. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Dec 25 08:26:46 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 09:26:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: <4D157200.4090703@jbrain.com> References: <4D156AF8.9010505@neurotica.com> <4D157200.4090703@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Dec 2010, Jim Brain wrote: > Is there a link handy to a minimal schematic. Alexandre's question piqued my > curiosity, so I went looking, thinking there would be a ez80 Acclaim + SRAM + > SD, using the RS232 for a terminal. I can't find anything that minimal. The ez80 project appears to have been "closed source". > If true (I'm happy to be wrong), I agree a small board with the minimal > components might be useful to a wide range of people. But, it would require > someone who can write a BDOS for it. At the risk of appearing negative, I do not think the world needs another single-board CP/M computer at this moment in time. In any event, I think it's the BIOS that will be required. There are plenty of free options for CCP, BDOS and utility suites. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Dec 25 13:29:37 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 14:29:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: ISO Corvus transporter card with piggyback EPROM In-Reply-To: <4D162965.3010003@bitsavers.org> References: <4D162965.3010003@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 25 Dec 2010, Al Kossow wrote: > Not much of a chance, but I thought I'd try. > Corvus released a special version of the transporter firmware that > went in a piggyback EPROM on the microcontroller. > I've been looking for the code for a LONG time. It is mostly useful > for packet sniffing. Are you referring to the "Universal Z80 Transporter"? That was a semi-mythical product sold only to their development partners. Don't know of anyone who's ever seen one in the wild. If that's not what you mean, can you explain a bit more about the device you're after? Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Dec 25 22:35:18 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 23:35:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: <4D1645B9.4070600@jbrain.com> References: <3D469B1B62F545B0800D0C3F6EF662DE@andrewdesktop> <4D1645B9.4070600@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 25 Dec 2010, Jim Brain wrote: > My main concern was the BIOS. I can layout the board, source the parts, and > construct the prototypes, but I'm only familiar enough with Z80 to code up > some extremely simple test programs. A Z80 BIOS would be way beyond my > capabilities, and a second version that works in conjunction with IO coming > from a C64 or C128 would be more complicated yet. I'll see what I can source > relative to the hardware design. In the late 80's I was involved in the design and marketing (such as it was) of a Z180 based coprocessor board for Apple 2 machines. You may be able to leverage a lot of the CardZ180 BIOS code for use in a C= add-on, since the cast of characters is identical (well, almost, but there's only a small amount of stuff that's particular to '180 architecture). If nothing else, it's a working example of how to split BIOS functions across a Z180 guest and 6502 host. The original tool-chain was a wierd combination of Microsoft M80 assembler and SLR linker, but I bet there are Linux based cross-assemblers that can do the job nowadays. Please drop me private e-mail if you want to have a look at it or discuss further. Steve -- From trebor77 at execpc.com Sun Dec 26 06:52:58 2010 From: trebor77 at execpc.com (Robert J. Stevens) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2010 06:52:58 -0600 Subject: Looking for EPROM 2708 help In-Reply-To: <78a53f42-4ccc-4bcb-9841-6c123cf19b79@n3g2000yqa.googlegroups.com> References: <78a53f42-4ccc-4bcb-9841-6c123cf19b79@n3g2000yqa.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <4D173AAA.5080004@execpc.com> Is there anyone out there that can BURN a 2708 EPROM for me. My Data I/O System-19 W/UNIPAK is DAS Kaput. It will not burn me a good prom. Not Sure why though. My Fault ???? I am trying to add some code to Dave Dunfields Monitor to find out why the 2708 that Andrew burnt is malfunctioning on my N*. I have tried to add several lines of code but the resulting Prom just doesn't perform the way the Andrew Prom does. I am using a SOL-20 System/Bus Probe that will Single Step the N* CPU so I can then track the code and its execution. I can see the results of the OUT 3 & 2 Instructions but not the IN 2. I am going to add jumpers to the Probe to display "Data In" as well as the existing "Data Out" and that might help. I have at least 5 2708's and can mail one out then I can sent the Code as an attachment. ALSO is there anyone out there using Dave's Monitor Mapped at "0000" that would be willing to test the 2708 that I have; that works somewhat; that way I could determine if the Fault is in the N* or in the Code itself. Since I can't burn a New Prom I am up the creek without a Paddle so to speak. TIA Bob in Wisconsin From trebor77 at execpc.com Sun Dec 26 06:55:08 2010 From: trebor77 at execpc.com (Robert J. Stevens) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2010 06:55:08 -0600 Subject: Looking for EPROM 2708 help Message-ID: <4D173B2C.2050809@execpc.com> Is there anyone out there that can BURN a 2708 EPROM for me. My Data I/O System-19 W/UNIPAK is DAS Kaput. It will not burn me a good prom. Not Sure why though. My Fault ???? I am trying to add some code to Dave Dunfields Monitor to find out why the 2708 that Andrew burnt is malfunctioning on my N*. I have tried to add several lines of code but the resulting Prom just doesn't perform the way the Andrew Prom does. I am using a SOL-20 System/Bus Probe that will Single Step the N* CPU so I can then track the code and its execution. I can see the results of the OUT 3 & 2 Instructions but not the IN 2. I am going to add jumpers to the Probe to display "Data In" as well as the existing "Data Out" and that might help. I have at least 5 2708's and can mail one out then I can sent the Code as an attachment. ALSO is there anyone out there using Dave's Monitor Mapped at "0000" that would be willing to test the 2708 that I have; that works somewhat; that way I could determine if the Fault is in the N* or in the Code itself. Since I can't burn a New Prom I am up the creek without a Paddle so to speak. TIA Bob in Wisconsin From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Dec 26 09:51:50 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2010 08:51:50 -0700 Subject: C64/C128 CP/M Cartridge Interest? In-Reply-To: <4D157503.4070909@jbrain.com> References: <201012240327.oBO3ROuE020438@floodgap.com> <57779CE227E849B89908C5653C1582BA@dell8300><4D14F5AF.2030901@brouhaha.com> <4D1511AE.5030804@jbrain.com> <9F9BD2006D7E4712AB4235B8C7C38962@portajara> <4D157503.4070909@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4D176496.6020700@e-bbes.com> On 2010-12-24 21:37, Jim Brain wrote: > On 12/24/2010 3:50 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > * I so want to start learning Verilog. I thought, if I got a > basic environment going, I could then take a look at virtualizing > the pieces to an FPGA connected to the C128/C64. But, since I > know little of Z80 and CP/M (having used it long ago), I thought > going to FPGAs from nothing was too large a leap. Did you have a look at : http://opencores.com/project,z80soc should get you started, or just give you some ideas. Cheers From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Dec 26 10:38:19 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2010 08:38:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: C64/C128 CP/M Cartridge Interest? In-Reply-To: <4D152259.7090309@neurotica.com> References: <201012240327.oBO3ROuE020438@floodgap.com><57779CE227E849B89908C5653C1582BA@dell8300> <4D14F5AF.2030901@brouhaha.com> <776F79ADFCC44503B0E929B17AEF4CF3@dell8300> <4D150FF9.90900@neurotica.com> <4D152259.7090309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Dec 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 12/24/10 5:40 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>>> I wouldn't mind a CP/M standalone if it was cheap. Most of the CP/M >>>> machines of the era are either recycled or need some repairs by now. >>> >>> N8VEM is a really nice machine.. >>> >> Unfortunately, nobody is kitting them. > > They're dead easy to assemble. The only "problem" components are the > unreasonably large EPROM and SRAM chips, and even they aren't too tough to > find. The assembly isn't the issue, I just don't like chasing parts. At some point, when I want one enough, I'll get off my dead ass and do what needs to be done to build one. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Dec 26 12:38:14 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2010 10:38:14 -0800 Subject: Looking for EPROM 2708 help In-Reply-To: <4D173AAA.5080004@execpc.com> References: <78a53f42-4ccc-4bcb-9841-6c123cf19b79@n3g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>, <4D173AAA.5080004@execpc.com> Message-ID: > From: trebor77 at execpc.com > > Is there anyone out there that can BURN a 2708 EPROM for me. > My Data I/O System-19 W/UNIPAK is DAS Kaput. It will not burn me a good > prom. Not Sure why though. My Fault ???? > I am trying to add some code to Dave Dunfields Monitor to find out why > the 2708 that Andrew burnt is malfunctioning on my N*. > I have tried to add several lines of code but the resulting Prom just > doesn't perform the way the Andrew Prom does. > I am using a SOL-20 System/Bus Probe that will Single Step the N* CPU so > I can then track the code and its execution. > I can see the results of the OUT 3 & 2 Instructions but not the IN 2. > I am going to add jumpers to the Probe to display "Data In" as well as > the existing "Data Out" and that might help. > I have at least 5 2708's and can mail one out then I can sent the Code > as an attachment. > ALSO is there anyone out there using Dave's Monitor Mapped at "0000" > that would be willing to test the 2708 that I have; that works somewhat; > that way I could determine if the Fault is in the N* or in the Code itself. > Since I can't burn a New Prom I am up the creek without a Paddle so to > speak. > TIA > Bob in Wisconsin Hi Bob from W I have both a 19 and one of those s100 ROM programmer boards ( forget the name ). The problem is that it is all in storage right now and it might take a month to get to it ( moved into a new house and have other projects for a while ). Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 26 12:51:30 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2010 18:51:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Epson CP/M floppy drives. Was: C64/C128 CP/M Cartridge Interest? In-Reply-To: <4D1711AE.4030601@xs4all.nl> from "Fred Jan Kraan" at Dec 26, 10 10:58:06 am Message-ID: > > > So the Floppy for the PX8 is specialized for a CP/M host it's not running > > CP/M itself as there is not enough ram alone to qualify. > To clarify the Epson floppy drive issue, there were three products: > > TF-20 - Z80 based, 64k RAM, 2k ROM, boot from disk > TF-15 - Z80 based, 2k RAM, 8k ROM, runs from ROM > PF-10 - 6303 based, 2k RAM, 8k ROM, runs from ROM > > The TF-20 supported the commands used by the HX-20 and the PX-4/8 > The TF-15 and PF-10 only supported the PX-4/8 commands. Now that I didn't realise... I assumed that all drives worked with all machines. But the only one I have working is the TF20, which works with everything :-) > > The TF-20 used the boot tracks of the disk to load some OS and a program > which made it a serial 'file server' for the host. The OS could very > well be a slimmed down version of CP/M. I think it was close.... The following string exists in the OS on the TF20 system disk (the one that also contains HX20 disk BASIC, etc). "Bdos Err On : $Bad Sector$Select$File R/O$" Sure looks like a CP/M message to me ... > The HX-20 commands are file based and were issued mainly from Basic. The > Basic > extension is also on the boot disk. > The PX-4/8 commands are sector based and issued from CP/M. Although IIRC the disk BASIC for the HS20 had DSKI$ and DSKO$ commands (or something similar) to read/write absolute sectors. There's also a free program for linux machines to emulate such a drive. Amazingly it works on my acient linux box, and from what I can remember, it works with the HX20 and PX4/8 machines. > All devices used the same protocol, epspd and baud rate. The same > protocol was used internally in the HX-20/PX-8 between the various > processors. The HX-20/PX-8 external video device also used it. IIRC, at the hardware level it's RS232 voltages, 38400 baud. Probably 8 bits, no parity, 1 stop. > The TF-15 and PF-10 are both ROM based. The TF-15 used the same housing > as the TF-20. As this resembled the QX-10 computer, the origin of the > TF-15/20 product was probably to provide two extra floppies for this > computer. Of coruse the floppy drives in the TF20 (and maybe the TF15, I've never seen one) are the same voice-coil drives as in a QX10. There's a 34 pin header on the nback of the TF20, which would appear to be for adding a couple of exter external drives. AFAIN, the software doesn't support it, though. More interestingly, there's a parallel interface inside the TF20 (8255 + header), I can't remember if it's populated, or if the PCB is simply laid out for it. I have no idea what this was supposed to be used with. The serial inbterface in the TF20 is a daughterboard. Whether other interfaces were planned to fit in place of it I don't know. I also have another Epson prodcut in a very similar case. it's called something liek a 'BM5'. The external interface is a DB25 socket, but it's not RS232, it's some custom patallel interface. Inside is a PSU, controller board and 5.25" floppy drive. But it's not a standard drive at all. The interface between the cotnroller and drive is a 34 way and a20 way ribbon cable, the controller board has a _hard disk_ controller IC on it (one of the NEC ones). I believe the drive interface to be close to ST412, and the drive to take special floppies (possibly with servo tracks) and to have a rahter high capacity. I bought this thing 15 or so years ago (back when Greenweld sold interesting stuff) and have never been able to fidn out anythign about it. Oh well... It was probably a peripherals for the QX10 or something, but I have never seen an interface card for it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 26 12:32:36 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2010 18:32:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: <4D16620C.5070202@verizon.net> from "allison" at Dec 25, 10 04:28:44 pm Message-ID: > > There is a heck of a lot of elkectronics inside. One large PCB containg a > > Z80, 2K (IIRC) boot ROM ()with logic to switch it out after booting), 64K > > DRAM, floppy controller, a duaghterboard with a 7201 serial chip, etc. > > > From what others have been saying that's easily enough to run CP/M. Note, > > I am not talking about the CP/.M that runs in the PX8 or wherever. I am > > talking about the Z80 in the TF20 itself. > > > I have the portable battery powered single 3.5" floppy (PF10) and it's not > so full of ram. I also have the full manuals for the system, peripherals, > both tech and programming. On occasion I hack peripherals for them. > In an earlier message I did mention that my comments did not apply to r the 3.5" drives, which are very different inside. The PF10 (I have a non-working one [1]) uses a 6303 microcontroller IIRC, with a program ROM, small-ish RAM, and floppy controller chip (765 IIRC). One odd-ish feature is that the floppy dirve mechanics (stepper, etc) are controlled by the micrtocontroller (which takes the step signal from the 765 as an interrupt IIRC), much of the logic you'd experct to find in a floppy drive is absent. It's also odd in that it's a 40cylinder (67.5 tpi) device. [1] The microcontorller has failed. Even though it's ROMless, this is not much of a help. Finding the right version i nthe right package after all thses years has proved impossible. I am darn sure it's the microcontroller in that I pulled the ROM and forced NOPs onto the data bus, and it still had an address bus that looked crazy. On inmportatn difference to the user between the 5.25" andf 3.5" drives is that the former need a 'system disk' to do anything useful, the latter do not, they have the operating software in EPROM. -tony From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Dec 26 13:07:36 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2010 14:07:36 -0500 Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest References: Message-ID: ------------Original Message: Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 18:19:41 -0800 (PST) From: Fred Cisin Subject: Re: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest It's too bad that nobody brought up CP/M on the Kyoceras (Radio Shack model 100, Nec 8200, etc). THAT would have been a project. Or on the Epson RC20! ------------Reply: As you've read elsewhere Allison did indeed do just that, and some folks in the Club100 group have also (sporadically) been working on this for a while. mike From legalize at xmission.com Sun Dec 26 13:43:46 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2010 12:43:46 -0700 Subject: Undocumented 8080 instructions? In-Reply-To: <4D164D02.6030004@brouhaha.com> References: <4D159DAE.8060702@brouhaha.com> <4D15C271.753.5915C9@cclist.sydex.com> <4D164D02.6030004@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: In article <4D164D02.6030004 at brouhaha.com>, Eric Smith writes: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > To the best of my recollection, the undocumented 8080 > > opcodes are, by and large, no-ops or redundancies (i.e. they do the > > same as a close-valued opcode probably from incomplete PLA decoding). > [...] > > No startling new "triple precision divide" instructions. > > I wasn't expecting any. The reason I'm asking is to be able to > replicate the behavior in a simulator, in case any software happened to > use them (intentionally or otherwise). Didn't the visual 6502 guys also have a project to do the 8080? http://www.visual6502.org/ -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Dec 26 17:57:09 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2010 18:57:09 -0500 Subject: Epson CP/M floppy drives. Was: C64/C128 CP/M Cartridge Interest? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D17D655.9020807@verizon.net> On 12/26/2010 01:51 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> So the Floppy for the PX8 is specialized for a CP/M host it's not running >>> CP/M itself as there is not enough ram alone to qualify. >> To clarify the Epson floppy drive issue, there were three products: >> >> TF-20 - Z80 based, 64k RAM, 2k ROM, boot from disk >> TF-15 - Z80 based, 2k RAM, 8k ROM, runs from ROM >> PF-10 - 6303 based, 2k RAM, 8k ROM, runs from ROM >> >> The TF-20 supported the commands used by the HX-20 and the PX-4/8 >> The TF-15 and PF-10 only supported the PX-4/8 commands. > > Now that I didn't realise... I assumed that all drives worked with all > machines. But the only one I have working is the TF20, which works with > everything :-) > >> The TF-20 used the boot tracks of the disk to load some OS and a program >> which made it a serial 'file server' for the host. The OS could very >> well be a slimmed down version of CP/M. > I think it was close.... > > The following string exists in the OS on the TF20 system disk (the one > that also contains HX20 disk BASIC, etc). > > "Bdos Err On : $Bad Sector$Select$File R/O$" > > Sure looks like a CP/M message to me ... > Yes those messages are embedded in the BDOS, I can easily see doing named file services over raw blocks. With enough ram it's possible to do a LRU cache so the current file in use is buffered saving disk activity. I've done this is some of my systems and even have a pair of 3.5" drives with 8085 plus FDC to implement that. The idea being all the system had to do was make the equivalent of of a BDOS call and a sub system (not even CPM) can grab the parameters and pass them to the disk system. Works well for memory starved systems where the added 5.5K of CCP and BDOS are enough to be over the top. The down side is even at 38.4K it's about 100 times slower than a native disk. If you want to copy files from drive to drive then a decent sized buffer helps speed things. FYI a copy of CP/M bdos and a bios for drives has a ram/rom cost of not less than 3.5K (bdos) and likely about 1.5K (bios) and the file transfer application (CCP is 2K) so thats 8K in itself. A reasonable buffer is 16K so your to 24K plus rams (that era) were 1/2/4/16/64K Where 32K was generally oddball half good parts. So with a z80 the cost to do 16 or 64K is able the same in logic and the difference is cost of eight 16K parts becommin passe` vs eight 64K parts getting cheaper. To me sounds like rom and ram were available enough to allow software design to take a cheaper (less time) route. The PF10 however hard to run on batteries so while cpu and memories were cheap and big enough power was costly enough to make for a different set of trade offs. >> The HX-20 commands are file based and were issued mainly from Basic. The >> Basic >> extension is also on the boot disk. >> The PX-4/8 commands are sector based and issued from CP/M. If the machine is BASIC based having the file system on the drive is then useful as then you are doing the same or similar to CLOAD without the usual cassette tape bit banging. The result is even minimal Tinybasic can do a named file with little code cost. > Although IIRC the disk BASIC for the HS20 had DSKI$ and DSKO$ commands > (or something similar) to read/write absolute sectors. > > There's also a free program for linux machines to emulate such a drive. > Amazingly it works on my acient linux box, and from what I can remember, > it works with the HX20 and PX4/8 machines. > It does but it does not so file level services it's strictly at the Sector level. >> All devices used the same protocol, epspd and baud rate. The same >> protocol was used internally in the HX-20/PX-8 between the various >> processors. The HX-20/PX-8 external video device also used it. > IIRC, at the hardware level it's RS232 voltages, 38400 baud. Probably 8 > bits, no parity, 1 stop. > >> The TF-15 and PF-10 are both ROM based. The TF-15 used the same housing >> as the TF-20. As this resembled the QX-10 computer, the origin of the >> TF-15/20 product was probably to provide two extra floppies for this >> computer. > Of coruse the floppy drives in the TF20 (and maybe the TF15, I've never > seen one) are the same voice-coil drives as in a QX10. > > There's a 34 pin header on the nback of the TF20, which would appear to > be for adding a couple of exter external drives. AFAIN, the software > doesn't support it, though. > Different from the PF10. Epson did some interesting things overall. > More interestingly, there's a parallel interface inside the TF20 (8255 + > header), I can't remember if it's populated, or if the PCB is simply laid > out for it. I have no idea what this was supposed to be used with. > Motor control or maybe a parallel bus for the PX8 or NEC8201 > The serial inbterface in the TF20 is a daughterboard. Whether other > interfaces were planned to fit in place of it I don't know. > > I also have another Epson prodcut in a very similar case. it's called > something liek a 'BM5'. The external interface is a DB25 socket, but it's > not RS232, it's some custom patallel interface. Inside is a PSU, > controller board and 5.25" floppy drive. But it's not a standard drive at > all. The interface between the cotnroller and drive is a 34 way and a20 > way ribbon cable, the controller board has a _hard disk_ controller IC on > it (one of the NEC ones). I believe the drive interface to be close to > ST412, and the drive to take special floppies (possibly with servo > tracks) and to have a rahter high capacity. I bought this thing 15 or so > years ago (back when Greenweld sold interesting stuff) and have never > been able to fidn out anythign about it. Oh well... It was probably a > peripherals for the QX10 or something, but I have never seen an interface > card for it. > Never seen that. Allison > -tony > From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Dec 26 18:12:49 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2010 19:12:49 -0500 Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D17DA01.7080606@verizon.net> On 12/26/2010 01:32 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> There is a heck of a lot of elkectronics inside. One large PCB containg a >>> Z80, 2K (IIRC) boot ROM ()with logic to switch it out after booting), 64K >>> DRAM, floppy controller, a duaghterboard with a 7201 serial chip, etc. >>>> From what others have been saying that's easily enough to run CP/M. Note, >>> I am not talking about the CP/.M that runs in the PX8 or wherever. I am >>> talking about the Z80 in the TF20 itself. >>> >> I have the portable battery powered single 3.5" floppy (PF10) and it's not >> so full of ram. I also have the full manuals for the system, peripherals, >> both tech and programming. On occasion I hack peripherals for them. >> > In an earlier message I did mention that my comments did not apply to > r the 3.5" drives, which are very different inside. The PF10 (I have a > non-working one [1]) uses a 6303 microcontroller IIRC, with a program > ROM, small-ish RAM, and floppy controller chip (765 IIRC). One odd-ish > feature is that the floppy dirve mechanics (stepper, etc) are controlled > by the micrtocontroller (which takes the step signal from the 765 as an > interrupt IIRC), much of the logic you'd experct to find in a floppy > drive is absent. > > It's also odd in that it's a 40cylinder (67.5 tpi) device. > its first generation 3.5", also runs slower data rate. > [1] The microcontorller has failed. Even though it's ROMless, this is not > much of a help. Finding the right version i nthe right package after all > thses years has proved impossible. I am darn sure it's the > microcontroller in that I pulled the ROM and forced NOPs onto the data > bus, and it still had an address bus that looked crazy. > 6303 is easy to find, I have a few from old defunct HDs. > On inmportatn difference to the user between the 5.25" andf 3.5" drives > is that the former need a 'system disk' to do anything useful, the latter > do not, they have the operating software in EPROM. > Looks that way. Allison > -tony > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 26 18:31:21 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2010 16:31:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Epson drives (Was: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: <4D17DA01.7080606@verizon.net> References: <4D17DA01.7080606@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20101226162855.E89836@shell.lmi.net> > > It's also odd in that it's a 40cylinder (67.5 tpi) device. > its first generation 3.5", also runs slower data rate. Did anybody besides Epson ever use the 40 cylinder 3.5" in a cmmercial product? From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 26 20:07:15 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2010 21:07:15 -0500 Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D17F4D3.2070605@neurotica.com> On 12/25/10 2:39 PM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: >> BIOS, not BDOS...The BDOS is supplied as a standard, not-modifiable >> part of CP/M. In any case, I have done several BIOSes (including two >> for homebrew Z80 SBCs) and can help with that. > > How are you at Z80 disassembly? It would be nice to get the ATR8000 BIOS > disassembled and turned into something somewhat modular so it could be > redesigned with modern parts :) Heh, I used to be pretty good at it, but it's probably been 20-22 years since I reverse-engineered any Z80 code. I'm not sure I'd tackle something like that at this point. I'm doing plenty of Z80 *writing* these days, but that's a different story entirely. Now, if someone were to slide me an ATR8000, that'd provide some serious motivation. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 26 20:12:46 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2010 21:12:46 -0500 Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: <4D16470D.7070309@jbrain.com> References: <4D156AF8.9010505@neurotica.com> <4D157200.4090703@jbrain.com> <4D1628C3.20600@neurotica.com> <4D16470D.7070309@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4D17F61E.4010605@neurotica.com> On 12/25/10 2:33 PM, Jim Brain wrote: >> In any case, I have done several BIOSes (including two for homebrew >> Z80 SBCs) and can help with that. > > That would be grand. There is a small but passionate group of folks who > would enjoy this, but I'm not a BIOS person, I barely know Z80 assembler. Writing a CP/M BIOS is surprisingly easy, but knowing Z80 assembler would be a good start. :) I learned CP/M BIOS hacking from "The Programmer's CP/M Handbook" by Andy Johnson-Laird, perhaps the very best CP/M book I've ever seen. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From brain at jbrain.com Sun Dec 26 21:24:12 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2010 21:24:12 -0600 Subject: C64/C128 CP/M Cartridge Interest? In-Reply-To: References: <201012240327.oBO3ROuE020438@floodgap.com> <57779CE227E849B89908C5653C1582BA@dell8300><4D14F5AF.2030901@brouhaha.com> <4D1511AE.5030804@jbrain.com> <9F9BD2006D7E4712AB4235B8C7C38962@portajara> <4D157503.4070909@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4D1806DC.2000203@jbrain.com> On 12/25/2010 8:23 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Fri, 24 Dec 2010, Jim Brain wrote: > >> * I so want to start learning Verilog. I thought, if I got a >> basic environment going, I could then take a look at virtualizing >> the pieces to an FPGA connected to the C128/C64. But, since I >> know little of Z80 and CP/M (having used it long ago), I thought >> going to FPGAs from nothing was too large a leap. > > Learning is always a valid motivation for a project. Yep, that's why I am approaching it as I am. I thought bringing up a standalone Z80 CP/M environment would show me the required portions of the CP/M system, and it would give me a baseline for an FPGA-based solution (or at least prove to me that an FPGA-based solution is not vaible) > >> * The next step after that is an accelerated CP/M. This plays in >> with my hope to obtain the rights to the SuperCPU for the >> C64/C128. It lacked accelerated Z80/CP/M compatibility, which I >> thought I could add, though maybe not. > > Now you're talking! I suspect you'd have considerably more commercial > success with a reissue of the SuperCPU. If you use an actual WDC > 65816 with verilog-based FPGA glue logic it should be a relatively > straightforward job. With a large enough FPGA, you might well be able > to synthesize both the 65816 and a Z80. I suspect the latter approach > might be cheaper in the long run. I have already purchased a Digilent board with an XC3S1200, the next to largest Spartan 3E in production. If the design can fit on 1 or 2 of those units (or the 1600s), I can make the system viable at a reasonable cost. I am in the process of obtaining the necessary rights to the SuperCPU design from the initial developer, but the actual design is no longer cost effective. It would need to be virtualized into FPGA to be viable. So, there is a method to my madness, but it's a long road. > > Steve > > -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com www.jbrain.net (eStore) From brain at jbrain.com Sun Dec 26 21:33:25 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2010 21:33:25 -0600 Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: References: <4D156AF8.9010505@neurotica.com> <4D157200.4090703@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4D180905.4060301@jbrain.com> On 12/25/2010 8:26 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Fri, 24 Dec 2010, Jim Brain wrote: > > >> If true (I'm happy to be wrong), I agree a small board with the >> minimal components might be useful to a wide range of people. But, >> it would require someone who can write a BDOS for it. > > At the risk of appearing negative, I do not think the world needs > another single-board CP/M computer at this moment in time. That may very well be. I figured if I developed a cart that could function standalone, then I have two chances for usefulness. > > In any event, I think it's the BIOS that will be required. There are > plenty of free options for CCP, BDOS and utility suites. Yes, as others had noted. I'll not feel bad, as I started my thread noting I have a very weak understanding of CP/M. That said, I think there is a market at least for an open source schematic of a minimal CP/M system. Something that used SD cards, had 2 UARTS (one for terminal, one for modem/etc.). People like me could use it as the basis for learning the environment without needing to find a classic machine, and then not knowing how to prepare floppies for it. I can attest that many more folks are interested in their CBM machines now that there are CF and SD (FAT-compatible) drives for them. Of course, I should point out at this point that I release all of my designs as open source, to guard against orphan projects/products with no ability to re-use. Thus, if someone is not a fan of open source, we probably won't find much in common on such a project. Jim From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Dec 26 21:52:33 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2010 19:52:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: C64/C128 CP/M Cartridge Interest? In-Reply-To: <4D1806DC.2000203@jbrain.com> from Jim Brain at "Dec 26, 10 09:24:12 pm" Message-ID: <201012270352.oBR3qXXj016456@floodgap.com> > > Now you're talking! I suspect you'd have considerably more commercial > > success with a reissue of the SuperCPU. If you use an actual WDC > > 65816 with verilog-based FPGA glue logic it should be a relatively > > straightforward job. With a large enough FPGA, you might well be able > > to synthesize both the 65816 and a Z80. I suspect the latter approach > > might be cheaper in the long run. > > I have already purchased a Digilent board with an XC3S1200, the next to > largest Spartan 3E in production. If the design can fit on 1 or 2 of > those units (or the 1600s), I can make the system viable at a reasonable > cost. I am in the process of obtaining the necessary rights to the > SuperCPU design from the initial developer, but the actual design is no > longer cost effective. It would need to be virtualized into FPGA to be > viable. *saves pennies* -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Death to spammers! http://spam.abuse.net/spam/ ----------------------------- From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 26 22:35:45 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2010 20:35:45 -0800 Subject: Epson drives (Was: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: <20101226162855.E89836@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4D17DA01.7080606@verizon.net>, <20101226162855.E89836@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4D17A721.23255.899C8@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Dec 2010 at 16:31, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > It's also odd in that it's a 40cylinder (67.5 tpi) device. > > its first generation 3.5", also runs slower data rate. > > Did anybody besides Epson ever use the 40 cylinder 3.5" in a cmmercial > product? Sure--a number of low-end word processors, such as Silver-Reed and Brother used them. I think the Preis CP/M box used them also. I find it more interesting that some of the 135 tpi users selected odd values for the upper limit. HP used 66, I think and Jonos used 70. Of course, the Japanese HD application were all mirrors of 8" usage and tended to be 77 cylinders for that reason. --Chuck From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Dec 27 03:17:14 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 10:17:14 +0100 (CET) Subject: Epson drives In-Reply-To: <4D17A721.23255.899C8@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4D17DA01.7080606@verizon.net>, <20101226162855.E89836@shell.lmi.net> <4D17A721.23255.899C8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Dec 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I find it more interesting that some of the 135 tpi users selected > odd values for the upper limit. HP used 66, I think and Jonos used HP used 35 for their 5.25" DS drives (e.g. HP82901) and 70 for their 3.5" SS drives (e.g. HP9121). Christian From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sun Dec 26 22:35:41 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2010 22:35:41 -0600 Subject: Computer History Entertainment In-Reply-To: <5A040639-FF43-481E-915A-6EEED6407DB3@classiccomputing.com> References: <5A040639-FF43-481E-915A-6EEED6407DB3@classiccomputing.com> Message-ID: <4D18179D.5030100@tx.rr.com> On 12/22/2010 1:07 PM, David Greelish wrote: > Hi everyone, > > If you have never checked out any of the shows that I produce, please consider checking one or more out over the holidays. I just posted the new Retro Computing Roundtable podcast today. Find it here - http://bit.ly/iazQ2S with links to the others at the top of the page. I just got around to listening today. That was marvelous, thanks very much. Merry Christmas to all, Charlie C. > > There is also - "Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer" audiobook podcast& the Classic Computing Show video podcast. > > I'm like the Leo Laporte of computer history podcasts! Well, OK, so I'm not as professional, and I don't have the years of radio and television experience, nor the equipment, or the money . . . OK, OK, I stink compared to Leo, I'm nothing like him! ; ) > > They're good shows. > > Have a great holiday season. > Best, > > David Greelish, Computer Historian > > Classic Computing > The Home of Computer History Nostalgia > http://www.classiccomputing.com > Classic Computing Blog > Classic Computing Show video podcast > "Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer" audiobook podcast > Retro Computing Roundtable podcast > Historical Computer Society > Classic Computing Expo 1.0 - planning for sometime late 2011! > > > > From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Mon Dec 27 06:11:08 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 12:11:08 -0000 Subject: Computer History Entertainment In-Reply-To: <4D18179D.5030100@tx.rr.com> References: <5A040639-FF43-481E-915A-6EEED6407DB3@classiccomputing.com> <4D18179D.5030100@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <9C49144AC4B94A63BCDB7092C633180C@RODSDEVSYSTEM> Sounds interesting - on which classic computers do these "shows" run? Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Charlie Carothers Sent: 27 December 2010 04:36 To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Computer History Entertainment On 12/22/2010 1:07 PM, David Greelish wrote: > Hi everyone, > > If you have never checked out any of the shows that I produce, please consider checking one or more out over the holidays. I just posted the new Retro Computing Roundtable podcast today. Find it here - http://bit.ly/iazQ2S with links to the others at the top of the page. I just got around to listening today. That was marvelous, thanks very much. Merry Christmas to all, Charlie C. > > There is also - "Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer" audiobook podcast& the Classic Computing Show video podcast. > > I'm like the Leo Laporte of computer history podcasts! Well, OK, so I'm not as professional, and I don't have the years of radio and television experience, nor the equipment, or the money . . . OK, OK, I stink compared to Leo, I'm nothing like him! ; ) > > They're good shows. > > Have a great holiday season. > Best, > > David Greelish, Computer Historian > > Classic Computing > The Home of Computer History Nostalgia > http://www.classiccomputing.com > Classic Computing Blog > Classic Computing Show video podcast > "Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer" audiobook podcast > Retro Computing Roundtable podcast > Historical Computer Society > Classic Computing Expo 1.0 - planning for sometime late 2011! > > > > From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Dec 27 07:41:49 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 06:41:49 -0700 Subject: C64/C128 CP/M Cartridge Interest? In-Reply-To: <4D1806DC.2000203@jbrain.com> References: <201012240327.oBO3ROuE020438@floodgap.com> <57779CE227E849B89908C5653C1582BA@dell8300><4D14F5AF.2030901@brouhaha.com> <4D1511AE.5030804@jbrain.com> <9F9BD2006D7E4712AB4235B8C7C38962@portajara> <4D157503.4070909@jbrain.com> <4D1806DC.2000203@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4D18979D.4020004@e-bbes.com> On 2010-12-26 20:24, Jim Brain wrote: > I have already purchased a Digilent board with an XC3S1200, the next to > largest Spartan 3E in production. If the design can fit on 1 or 2 of > those units (or the 1600s), I can make the system viable at a reasonable > cost. A complete z80 SOC (with uarts/sd-flash card, video) occupies less the 50% of the xc1200. So you are good to go ... From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 27 11:27:52 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 09:27:52 -0800 Subject: Epson drives In-Reply-To: References: , <4D17A721.23255.899C8@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4D185C18.159.67215@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Dec 2010 at 10:17, Christian Corti wrote: > On Sun, 26 Dec 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I find it more interesting that some of the 135 tpi users selected > > odd values for the upper limit. HP used 66, I think and Jonos used > > HP used 35 for their 5.25" DS drives (e.g. HP82901) and 70 for their > 3.5" SS drives (e.g. HP9121). Perhaps, but the HP125 and HP150 Series I *used* 66. I don't know why, just that's what I found. Also, the HP125 8" drives used 66. --Chuck From david at classiccomputing.com Mon Dec 27 12:39:24 2010 From: david at classiccomputing.com (David Greelish) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 13:39:24 -0500 Subject: Computer History Entertainment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 27, 2010, at 1:00 PM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > I just got around to listening today. That was marvelous, thanks very much. > Merry Christmas to all, > Charlie C. Thanks Charlie! Best, David Greelish, Computer Historian Classic Computing The Home of Computer History Nostalgia http://www.classiccomputing.com Classic Computing Blog Classic Computing Show video podcast "Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer" audiobook podcast Retro Computing Roundtable podcast Historical Computer Society Classic Computing Expo 1.0 - planning for sometime late 2011! From david at classiccomputing.com Mon Dec 27 12:42:39 2010 From: david at classiccomputing.com (David Greelish) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 13:42:39 -0500 Subject: Computer History Entertainment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <919E4C5A-34F2-4B8F-82AA-6560E424B9A0@classiccomputing.com> On Dec 27, 2010, at 1:00 PM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Sounds interesting - on which classic computers do these "shows" run? > > > Regards > > Rod Smallwood Hi Rod, They are podcasts, so you have to do like when you were a kid. You know, you sit in front of the TV watching "Scooby Doo" with your stuffed Scooby, or like that. So, you tinker around with your old computers, etc. while listening. ; ) Well, unless you're driving. Best, David Greelish, Computer Historian Classic Computing The Home of Computer History Nostalgia http://www.classiccomputing.com Classic Computing Blog Classic Computing Show video podcast "Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer" audiobook podcast Retro Computing Roundtable podcast Historical Computer Society Classic Computing Expo 1.0 - planning for sometime late 2011! From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Mon Dec 27 12:53:04 2010 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (Fred Jan Kraan) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 19:53:04 +0100 Subject: Epson CP/M floppy drives. Was: C64/C128 CP/M Cartridge, Interest? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D18E090.6040203@xs4all.nl> >> The HX-20 commands are file based and were issued mainly from Basic. The >> Basic >> extension is also on the boot disk. >> The PX-4/8 commands are sector based and issued from CP/M. > Although IIRC the disk BASIC for the HS20 had DSKI$ and DSKO$ commands > (or something similar) to read/write absolute sectors. The TF-15 and PF-10 implemented a subset of the TF-20 commands. For an overview of the epsp commands: http://www.xs4all.nl/~fjkraan/comp/hx20/epsp.html (the PX-4/8 commands are at the end) > There's also a free program for linux machines to emulate such a drive. > Amazingly it works on my acient linux box, and from what I can remember, > it works with the HX20 and PX4/8 machines. There are several programs. The Px8vfs program for DOS (and OS/2) is written by Will Rose and I got it via Don Maslin a long time ago: http://www.xs4all.nl/~fjkraan/comp/px8/px8vfs/index.html. The other is Vfloppy, originally written by Justin Mitchell and maintained by me: http://www.xs4all.nl/~fjkraan/comp/px4/vfloppy/. The images of the latest version are also usable with the PX-4/8 and QX-10 emulators. > IIRC, at the hardware level it's RS232 voltages, 38400 baud. Probably 8 > bits, no parity, 1 stop. Correct. The fun thing is, the vfloppy program even works with USB-RS232 converters :-) >> The TF-15 and PF-10 are both ROM based. The TF-15 used the same housing >> as the TF-20. As this resembled the QX-10 computer, the origin of the >> TF-15/20 product was probably to provide two extra floppies for this >> computer. > Of coruse the floppy drives in the TF20 (and maybe the TF15, I've never > seen one) are the same voice-coil drives as in a QX10. > > There's a 34 pin header on the nback of the TF20, which would appear to > be for adding a couple of exter external drives. AFAIN, the software > doesn't support it, though. > > More interestingly, there's a parallel interface inside the TF20 (8255 + > header), I can't remember if it's populated, or if the PCB is simply laid > out for it. I have no idea what this was supposed to be used with. > > The serial inbterface in the TF20 is a daughterboard. Whether other > interfaces were planned to fit in place of it I don't know. > > I also have another Epson prodcut in a very similar case. it's called > something liek a 'BM5'. The external interface is a DB25 socket, but it's > not RS232, it's some custom patallel interface. Inside is a PSU, Interesting, like the TF-20. I never figured out how this product has come into being. Too much useless connectors and daugthter boards to be designed as a single consistent design. > controller board and 5.25" floppy drive. But it's not a standard drive at > all. The interface between the cotnroller and drive is a 34 way and a20 > way ribbon cable, the controller board has a _hard disk_ controller IC on > it (one of the NEC ones). I believe the drive interface to be close to > ST412, and the drive to take special floppies (possibly with servo > tracks) and to have a rahter high capacity. I bought this thing 15 or so > years ago (back when Greenweld sold interesting stuff) and have never > been able to fidn out anythign about it. Oh well... It was probably a > peripherals for the QX10 or something, but I have never seen an interface > card for it. Could it be a GPIB interface? There is such a card for the QX-10 (http://www.xs4all.nl/~fjkraan/comp/hx20/epson_codes.txt) and I know HP used this interface for hard disks in the HP9000 / 300 machines. > -tony > Fred Jan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 27 13:19:07 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 19:19:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Epson drives (Was: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: <4D17A721.23255.899C8@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 26, 10 08:35:45 pm Message-ID: > I find it more interesting that some of the 135 tpi users selected > odd values for the upper limit. HP used 66, I think and Jonos used the original HP 3.5" drive unit -- the 9121 was designed ot be exactly compatible with the 82901 5.25" drive unit. The latter was a 35 cylinder 2 head deevce, so 70 physcial tracks. The 3.5" drive therefore only used 70 physicla tracks too. But HP also had this idea f having 'spare' tracks so that slightly defective disks would appear perfect to the user. And this was handled by the drive unit. There's soem kind of infromation stored o nthe inntermost track whih gives the track replacemtn indromation, disk usage count, etc. No hP maual that I've seen has any real details of this. The single-0sided drives in the earlier 9133 uniuts are the same as te 9121 (to the exptent that the firmware EPROM on the controler board is the same)..The double-sided ones are different, I think you get something like 77 user cylinders on thsoe (and still some bad track informaiton on cylidner 79.). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 27 13:10:08 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 19:10:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Epson CP/M floppy drives. Was: C64/C128 CP/M Cartridge Interest? In-Reply-To: <4D17D655.9020807@verizon.net> from "allison" at Dec 26, 10 06:57:09 pm Message-ID: > If you want to copy files from drive to drive then a decent sized buffer > helps speed things. FYI a copy of CP/M bdos and a bios for drives > has a ram/rom cost of not less than 3.5K (bdos) and likely about 1.5K > (bios) and the file transfer application (CCP is 2K) so thats 8K in itself. > A reasonable buffer is 16K so your to 24K plus rams (that era) were > 1/2/4/16/64K Where 32K was generally oddball half good parts. > So with a z80 the cost to do 16 or 64K is able the same in logic and the > difference is cost of eight 16K parts becommin passe` vs eight 64K > parts getting cheaper. To me sounds like rom and ram were available > enough to allow software design to take a cheaper (less time) route. The TF20 controller vboard takes 8 DRAM ICs, and there are links to use either 4116s or 4164s. AFAIK all production versions had 64K of RAM I;'ve been reading some manuals on the web. The translation is a little 'quaint' in palces but it appears Epson planned (or made) a product in the same cause, using the samedrives, but no cotnroller. Basically a dual 5.25" floppy drive with a SA400-like interface. Makes a lot of sense. I also wodner if they planned to make a CP/M computer in the same cabinet. It would have neen tirivial to do. The TF20 controller board ans weiral board would have done. Just slow down the serial port to, say, 9600 buad (and there are links for that on the serial daughterboard) and change the boot disk to have a normal CP/M CCP on it. It would actually be a fairly nice CP/M machine, there's a second serial port (other half of the 7201) and a parallel interface (the not-fitted 8255 I mentioned). > > There's also a free program for linux machines to emulate such a drive. > > Amazingly it works on my acient linux box, and from what I can remember, > > it works with the HX20 and PX4/8 machines. > > > > It does but it does not so file level services it's strictly at the > Sector level. I thought I'd used with the HX20, but maybe not... > > There's a 34 pin header on the nback of the TF20, which would appear to > > be for adding a couple of exter external drives. AFAIN, the software > > doesn't support it, though. > > > > Different from the PF10. Epson did some interesting things overall. Oh, the TF20 and PF10 are _totally_ different. > > > More interestingly, there's a parallel interface inside the TF20 (8255 + > > header), I can't remember if it's populated, or if the PCB is simply laid > > out for it. I have no idea what this was supposed to be used with. > > > Motor control or maybe a parallel bus for the PX8 or NEC8201 It's not motor control. There are ports for tht anyway. The 8255 is not normally fitted from whar i can tell, and all 24 port lines got to a 34 pin header, aong with grounds and IIRC a reset input. May be a parallel host interface, may be for some periperhals that were enversupported. > > I also have another Epson prodcut in a very similar case. it's called > > something liek a 'BM5'. The external interface is a DB25 socket, but it's > > not RS232, it's some custom patallel interface. Inside is a PSU, > > controller board and 5.25" floppy drive. But it's not a standard drive at > > all. The interface between the cotnroller and drive is a 34 way and a20 > > way ribbon cable, the controller board has a _hard disk_ controller IC on > > it (one of the NEC ones). I believe the drive interface to be close to > > ST412, and the drive to take special floppies (possibly with servo > > tracks) and to have a rahter high capacity. I bought this thing 15 or so > > years ago (back when Greenweld sold interesting stuff) and have never > > been able to fidn out anythign about it. Oh well... It was probably a > > peripherals for the QX10 or something, but I have never seen an interface > > card for it. > > > > Never seen that. I don;t think anyone has :-). I am sure it has nothing to do with the portable machiens (the host interface is certianly parallel), but I can find no mention of it anywhere. Doubtless one day somebody will recognise it... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 27 13:12:36 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 19:12:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: <4D17DA01.7080606@verizon.net> from "allison" at Dec 26, 10 07:12:49 pm Message-ID: [PF10] > > It's also odd in that it's a 40cylinder (67.5 tpi) device. > > > > its first generation 3.5", also runs slower data rate. Is it? I thought it turned at 300rpm and used 250kbps MFM recording like most 3.5" drives of the time. > > > [1] The microcontorller has failed. Even though it's ROMless, this is not > > much of a help. Finding the right version i nthe right package after all > > thses years has proved impossible. I am darn sure it's the > > microcontroller in that I pulled the ROM and forced NOPs onto the data > > bus, and it still had an address bus that looked crazy. > > > > 6303 is easy to find, I have a few from old defunct HDs. This, as I am sure you know, is a PQFP package. it also has to be the right version to get the I/O ports it needs. I still have the dead chip, I can post the number if anyone thinks they could get one. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 27 13:42:26 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 11:42:26 -0800 Subject: Epson drives (Was: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: References: <4D17A721.23255.899C8@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 26, 10 08:35:45 pm, Message-ID: <4D187BA2.8857.81A3BE@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Dec 2010 at 19:19, Tony Duell wrote: > the original HP 3.5" drive unit -- the 9121 was designed ot be exactly > compatible with the 82901 5.25" drive unit. The latter was a 35 > cylinder 2 head deevce, so 70 physcial tracks. The 3.5" drive > therefore only used 70 physicla tracks too. But HP also had this idea > f having 'spare' tracks so that slightly defective disks would appear > perfect to the user. And this was handled by the drive unit. There's > soem kind of infromation stored o nthe inntermost track whih gives the > track replacemtn indromation, disk usage count, etc. No hP maual that > I've seen has any real details of this. I wonder if it was universally implemented on HP gear. I've seen HP 150 Series I floppies with clusters marked bad the usual MS-DOS way. You'd think that such a thing would be impossible with an active "alternate track" scheme. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 27 14:30:52 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 20:30:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Epson CP/M floppy drives. Was: C64/C128 CP/M Cartridge, Interest? In-Reply-To: <4D18E090.6040203@xs4all.nl> from "Fred Jan Kraan" at Dec 27, 10 07:53:04 pm Message-ID: > > There's also a free program for linux machines to emulate such a drive. > > Amazingly it works on my acient linux box, and from what I can remember, > > it works with the HX20 and PX4/8 machines. > There are several programs. The Px8vfs program for DOS (and OS/2) is > written by Will Rose and I got it via Don Maslin a long time ago: > http://www.xs4all.nl/~fjkraan/comp/px8/px8vfs/index.html. The other is > Vfloppy, > originally written by Justin Mitchell and maintained by me: > http://www.xs4all.nl/~fjkraan/comp/px4/vfloppy/. I am pretty srue vfloppy is the one I used. > Correct. The fun thing is, the vfloppy program even works with USB-RS232 > converters :-) That doesn;t affect me one way or the other. > > I also have another Epson prodcut in a very similar case. it's called > > something liek a 'BM5'. The external interface is a DB25 socket, but it's > > not RS232, it's some custom patallel interface. Inside is a PSU, > Interesting, like the TF-20. I never figured out how this product has > come into being. Too much useless connectors and daugthter boards to be > designed as a single consistent design. Yes, the TF20 seems over-complicated. 64K RAM was a lot back then (and AFAIK all TF20s have 64K, even thoguh there are links to use 16K DRAMs). Having to have a system disk is odd too... And there are jumpers to have different baud rate fo the serial port, to use a differnnt crystal for the serial port (the PSB has space for 2 oscillator circuits), and there's tat uncommitted 8255 I mentioned. The TF20 has a lot of stuff that isn't really needed. As I said in my other message I wonder if it was first designed as a stand-alone CP/M computer (the hardware would be ideal for that) and then sold as the floppy drive for the HX20 (the only modifcations being to set the baud rate to 38400 baud and supply a diffenr system disk). > > controller board and 5.25" floppy drive. But it's not a standard drive at > > all. The interface between the cotnroller and drive is a 34 way and a20 > > way ribbon cable, the controller board has a _hard disk_ controller IC on > > it (one of the NEC ones). I believe the drive interface to be close to > > ST412, and the drive to take special floppies (possibly with servo > > tracks) and to have a rahter high capacity. I bought this thing 15 or so > > years ago (back when Greenweld sold interesting stuff) and have never > > been able to fidn out anythign about it. Oh well... It was probably a > > peripherals for the QX10 or something, but I have never seen an interface > > card for it. > Could it be a GPIB interface? There is such a card for the QX-10 > (http://www.xs4all.nl/~fjkraan/comp/hx20/epson_codes.txt) and I know HP > used this interface for hard disks in the HP9000 / 300 machines. I doubt it's GPIB. Althogh there was a version of GPIB using DB25 connectior (IEC625 IIRC, and the idiot who desigend the pinout needs to be shown the clue-by-four [1]), I am pretty sure the interface on the BM5 is nothing close. I hacve just found the unit and pulled the cocers. The nameplate on the bakc describes as a a 'BM-5, Model number F25RA'. Inside is a half-height floppy drive made by Hitachi, mdoel FDD541, a small PSU, and an Epson controller board labelled 'Rabbit Board'. That board contains a Z80, 2764 EPROM, 3 oiff 6264 8K*8 SRAM, 8237 DMA controller, uPD761 disk controller and not a lot else. Well, TTL, 26LS31, 26LS32, but no other large chips. The host interface may be SASI/SCIS. I say this simply because there's what may be an address selector jumper that goes from what I take to be data lines on the intefce connecotr to a common trace. This could be the 1-of-n addressing used by SASI/SCSI. [1] The pinout of this interface is silly. It uses a DB25 with the same pin numbers for the same functions as the 24 pin microribbon used for normal GPIB, and pin 25 not used. It should (IMHO, have used 1-12 and 14-25 in the obvious way. With the former pin wiring, you can't make up adapters simply by criming a microribbon connector and a DB25 onto a bit of 24 way ribbon cable. And if you use ribbon cable and DB25s, you end up with signals not interleaved by grounds. As I said, the designer should have thoguth a little more. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 27 14:37:06 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 20:37:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Epson drives (Was: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: <4D187BA2.8857.81A3BE@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 27, 10 11:42:26 am Message-ID: > > On 27 Dec 2010 at 19:19, Tony Duell wrote: > > > the original HP 3.5" drive unit -- the 9121 was designed ot be exactly > > compatible with the 82901 5.25" drive unit. The latter was a 35 > > cylinder 2 head deevce, so 70 physcial tracks. The 3.5" drive > > therefore only used 70 physicla tracks too. But HP also had this idea > > f having 'spare' tracks so that slightly defective disks would appear > > perfect to the user. And this was handled by the drive unit. There's > > soem kind of infromation stored o nthe inntermost track whih gives the > > track replacemtn indromation, disk usage count, etc. No hP maual that > > I've seen has any real details of this. > > I wonder if it was universally implemented on HP gear. I've seen HP > 150 Series I floppies with clusters marked bad the usual MS-DOS way. The HP150 series 1 (I assume by that you mean the origianl one with the 9" CRT [1]) used the normal HP9121, etc, floppy drive units which certainly did this. [1] I could say 'like the one that's in lots of bits on my bench at the moment, but that wouldn't help identify it really :-). > You'd think that such a thing would be impossible with an active > "alternate track" scheme. > AFAIK, the alternate tracks were only assifend when the disk was formated, and it was totally transpararent to the user. You ended uup witha 66 (or whatever) track disk, the drive unit took care of actaulyl gettign the head to the right physical track. If you haf no bad tracks during formating (which happens most, if not all, of the time), then it used the outside 66 tracks so everything looks normal. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 27 16:33:52 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 14:33:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP drives In-Reply-To: References: , <4D17DA01.7080606@verizon.net>, <20101226162855.E89836@shell.lmi.net> <4D17A721.23255.899C8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20101227143046.X26940@shell.lmi.net> > On Sun, 26 Dec 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I find it more interesting that some of the 135 tpi users selected > > odd values for the upper limit. HP used 66, I think and Jonos used On Mon, 27 Dec 2010, Christian Corti wrote: > HP used 35 for their 5.25" DS drives (e.g. HP82901) and 70 for their 3.5" > SS drives (e.g. HP9121). 35 was, of course the original Shugart SA400. I guess that HP never heard about, nor believed in, the extension to 40 of the "standard". Then, of course, 79 was simply doubling the SA400 "standard". "Standards aew wonderful things; everybody can have a unique one of their own." - George Morrow -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 27 16:45:54 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 14:45:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Epson drives In-Reply-To: <4D185C18.159.67215@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4D17A721.23255.899C8@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D185C18.159.67215@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20101227144116.U26940@shell.lmi.net> > > HP used 35 for their 5.25" DS drives (e.g. HP82901) and 70 for their > > 3.5" SS drives (e.g. HP9121). On Mon, 27 Dec 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Perhaps, but the HP125 and HP150 Series I *used* 66. I don't know > why, just that's what I found. Also, the HP125 8" drives used 66. The inner (higher numbered) tracks were certainly less reliable in the earlier drives. Perhaps HP set some sort of reliability threshold, and stopped at the point that their statisticians said was the max to perform [statistically] to spec. I saw multiple DIFFERENT upper limits (66 and 70) on discs (HP refused to call them "disks") that were supposedly the same format. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 27 16:57:46 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 14:57:46 -0800 Subject: Epson drives In-Reply-To: <20101227144116.U26940@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4D185C18.159.67215@cclist.sydex.com>, <20101227144116.U26940@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4D18A96A.31327.134799A@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Dec 2010 at 14:45, Fred Cisin wrote: > I saw multiple DIFFERENT upper limits (66 and 70) on discs (HP refused > to call them "disks") that were supposedly the same format. Indeed, the HP150 Series II floppies used 77 cylinders for data. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 27 18:41:18 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 16:41:18 -0800 Subject: Wave Mate Jupiter II Message-ID: <4D19322E.6070008@bitsavers.org> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/waveMate more than you ever wanted to know about the Wave Mate Jupiter II From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Dec 28 10:59:24 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 17:59:24 +0100 Subject: Uncommon: Intel Paragon on iOffer In-Reply-To: <4D13C6DE.4010406@neurotica.com> References: <201012222226.oBMMQqAC015984@floodgap.com> <033D5AAA-74E6-451B-81EA-CDA0A296AD0F@neurotica.com> <20101223224615.f86bf0b4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4D13C6DE.4010406@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20101228175924.fbb490c5.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 23 Dec 2010 17:02:06 -0500 Dave McGuire wrote: > > Well. The Extreme GFX for the 1st generation (teal R4k based) Indigo2 > > puts 8 i860 geometry engines in a desktop machine... > > Those aren't i860s, they're custom chips. Big ones. > > Did they implement the i860 architecture? As far as I have googled they are just i860 dice, four in a big multichip package. AFAIK the Extreme GFX is just the same as the Elan GFX of the Indigo, but with more geometry engines. > The Extreme video subsystem is really nice. Well. Impact is nicer and VPro even nicer... (I shoud get a Fuel some day...) -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 28 12:47:41 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 18:47:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Epson drives In-Reply-To: <4D18A96A.31327.134799A@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 27, 10 02:57:46 pm Message-ID: > > On 27 Dec 2010 at 14:45, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > > I saw multiple DIFFERENT upper limits (66 and 70) on discs (HP refused > > to call them "disks") that were supposedly the same format. > > Indeed, the HP150 Series II floppies used 77 cylinders for data. Not really, this ia a drive unit and not system parameter. An HP150-II will use the 9121 signle-sided drive, where it formats it to 70 cylinders (and probably gives you 66 of them). I think an HP150 can use the later double-sided drives like the 9122 (and will format them to 77 cylinders), but it may need a BIOS ROM upgrade amd/or a later version of MS-DOS. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 28 12:45:18 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 18:45:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP drives In-Reply-To: <20101227143046.X26940@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Dec 27, 10 02:33:52 pm Message-ID: > > > On Sun, 26 Dec 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > I find it more interesting that some of the 135 tpi users selected > > > odd values for the upper limit. HP used 66, I think and Jonos used > > On Mon, 27 Dec 2010, Christian Corti wrote: > > HP used 35 for their 5.25" DS drives (e.g. HP82901) and 70 for their 3.5" > > SS drives (e.g. HP9121). > > 35 was, of course the original Shugart SA400. I guess that HP never heard > about, nor believed in, the extension to 40 of the "standard". Years ago somebody tried to tell me that '35 track' 35.25" disks had a smaller head slot than 40 track ones and they could never be formatted to 40 tracks. Whs this ever true? [Mind you, this was the same person who tried to convince me that formatting the 'other side' of a single-sided disk could ruin the drive head, although using it asa single-sided disk would cause no damage. I cannot think how that could be true.] > > Then, of course, 79 was simply doubling the SA400 "standard". I assume that;s a typo. Every time I shift 100011 left by one bit I get 1000110, or 70... Howeer, was there ever a 70 cylinder 5.25" drive? That is one that was only designed to use 70 cylinders ? I mean a raw drive, not a drive+controller like the HP units we're discussing. -tony From michael_holley at mentor.com Tue Dec 28 13:48:10 2010 From: michael_holley at mentor.com (Holley, Michael) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 11:48:10 -0800 Subject: HP drives In-Reply-To: References: <20101227143046.X26940@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Dec 27, 10 02:33:52 pm Message-ID: <1775CC70CD47484EA68ACCD903F02CB302387DD7@na3-mail.mgc.mentorg.com> The original Shugart SA400 minifloppy (August 1976) only allowed 35 tracks. In early 1977 Wangco announced the Model 82 Micro Floppy that allowed 40 tracks with new media. Here is a photo of both disks. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Verbatim_5.25_minidisk_tracks_197 8.jpg Michael Holley -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 10:45 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: HP drives > > > On Sun, 26 Dec 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > I find it more interesting that some of the 135 tpi users selected > > > odd values for the upper limit. HP used 66, I think and Jonos used > > On Mon, 27 Dec 2010, Christian Corti wrote: > > HP used 35 for their 5.25" DS drives (e.g. HP82901) and 70 for their 3.5" > > SS drives (e.g. HP9121). > > 35 was, of course the original Shugart SA400. I guess that HP never heard > about, nor believed in, the extension to 40 of the "standard". Years ago somebody tried to tell me that '35 track' 35.25" disks had a smaller head slot than 40 track ones and they could never be formatted to 40 tracks. Whs this ever true? [Mind you, this was the same person who tried to convince me that formatting the 'other side' of a single-sided disk could ruin the drive head, although using it asa single-sided disk would cause no damage. I cannot think how that could be true.] > > Then, of course, 79 was simply doubling the SA400 "standard". I assume that;s a typo. Every time I shift 100011 left by one bit I get 1000110, or 70... Howeer, was there ever a 70 cylinder 5.25" drive? That is one that was only designed to use 70 cylinders ? I mean a raw drive, not a drive+controller like the HP units we're discussing. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 28 14:17:41 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 12:17:41 -0800 Subject: HP drives In-Reply-To: <1775CC70CD47484EA68ACCD903F02CB302387DD7@na3-mail.mgc.mentorg.com> References: <20101227143046.X26940@shell.lmi.net>, , <1775CC70CD47484EA68ACCD903F02CB302387DD7@na3-mail.mgc.mentorg.com> Message-ID: <4D19D565.10889.A142B7@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Dec 2010 at 11:48, Holley, Michael wrote: > The original Shugart SA400 minifloppy (August 1976) only allowed 35 > tracks. In early 1977 Wangco announced the Model 82 Micro Floppy that > allowed 40 tracks with new media. > > Here is a photo of both disks. > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Verbatim_5.25_minidisk_tracks_1 > 97 8.jpg I was about to mention that I seem to recall that the SA400 could indeed write and read 40 cylinders, to the best of my recollection, but that some early media didn't permit it. And, to add a bit of stuff to the mix, the Micropolis 100 tpi 5.25" floppies used 77 cylinders, with cylinder 0 offset outward a bit from where a 96 TPI drive would put it. And I don't recall how many cylinders the Shugart/Dysan 3.25" floppies supported. 40? I could format one up and see... --Chuck From helforama at gmail.com Tue Dec 28 14:48:43 2010 From: helforama at gmail.com (Josh Carlson) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 14:48:43 -0600 Subject: Uncommon: Intel Paragon on iOffer Message-ID: I had asked the seller about that terminal and he said he would take $200 + shipping... I have no idea if that is a good price or not. Any ideas? Dunno what I'd even do with it. -Josh From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Dec 28 15:45:32 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 14:45:32 -0700 Subject: HP drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D1A5A7C.1030804@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Howeer, was there ever a 70 cylinder 5.25" drive? That is one that was > only designed to use 70 cylinders ? I mean a raw drive, not a > drive+controller like the HP units we're discussing. I haven't heard of one, though Micropolis made 77-track 5.25" drives with 100tpi (vs. 35 or 40 track at 48tpi and 80 track at 96tpi), and a few other vendors offered compatible drives, e.g. the Tandon TM100-4M, where the "M" designates it as a 100tpi model. From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Dec 28 18:52:03 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 16:52:03 -0800 Subject: HP drives In-Reply-To: <4D1A5A7C.1030804@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 12/28/10 1:45 PM, "Eric Smith" wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: >> Howeer, was there ever a 70 cylinder 5.25" drive? That is one that was >> only designed to use 70 cylinders ? I mean a raw drive, not a >> drive+controller like the HP units we're discussing. > I haven't heard of one, though Micropolis made 77-track 5.25" drives > with 100tpi (vs. 35 or 40 track at 48tpi and 80 track at 96tpi), and a > few other vendors offered compatible drives, e.g. the Tandon TM100-4M, > where the "M" designates it as a 100tpi model. > ISTR: the 8" drives at least as used in tandy computers formatted out to 77 tracks.... From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 28 19:06:23 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 17:06:23 -0800 Subject: HP drives In-Reply-To: References: <4D1A5A7C.1030804@brouhaha.com>, Message-ID: <4D1A190F.1370.1A993D0@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Dec 2010 at 16:52, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > ISTR: the 8" drives at least as used in tandy computers formatted out > to 77 tracks.... That's standard for all 8" drives--and it's "cylinders", please! 8" drives can be double-sided with 2 tracks per cylinder. The "M" in the TM-100-4M stood for "Micropolis"--not only for the 100 tpi physical format, but also for the somewhat different pinout from the 96 tpi TM-100-4. --Chuck From scheefj at netscape.net Tue Dec 28 20:26:10 2010 From: scheefj at netscape.net (Jim Scheef) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 21:26:10 -0500 Subject: Epson drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D1A9C42.7070904@netscape.net> HP did everything it could to shoot itself in the foot. After promising compatibility among the 100-Series machines, the floppy format produced by the 9114 driven by the HP110 Portable or the Portable Plus was different from the format produced by the HP150. There were clever format programs and device driver tricks to get around some of these incompatibilities as well as to allow the PPlus to make and use 3.5" floppies that could also be read and written by regular DOS machines. Sometimes I find it amazing that HP has survived! Jim On 12/28/2010 1:47 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> On 27 Dec 2010 at 14:45, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >> >>> I saw multiple DIFFERENT upper limits (66 and 70) on discs (HP refused >>> to call them "disks") that were supposedly the same format. >> Indeed, the HP150 Series II floppies used 77 cylinders for data. > Not really, this ia a drive unit and not system parameter. > > An HP150-II will use the 9121 signle-sided drive, where it formats it to > 70 cylinders (and probably gives you 66 of them). I think an HP150 can > use the later double-sided drives like the 9122 (and will format them to > 77 cylinders), but it may need a BIOS ROM upgrade amd/or a later version > of MS-DOS. > > -tony From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 28 21:20:33 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 20:20:33 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project Message-ID: OK, I've been studying the circuit diagrams and service manuals for the Tektronix 4014 printer interface: I'm starting a project to create a modern printer interface for the terminal. This involves creating the optional target signal amplifier board for the 4010/4014 and creating a microcontroller based board that will drive the terminal like a 4631 printer and scan out the image from the storage tube for digitizing as a digital image. The amplifier board is what distinguishes a 4010/4014 from a 4010/4014-1 and provides the signals for the printer. The original 4631 printer is a completely analog device that scans out the storage tube and transfers the electrical signal to a dry silver paper for printing. This design will treat the analog signal supplied to the printer as a signal for digitizing into a raster image. I plan on housing mine inside a 4632 video hardcopy shell with a modern printer inside driven by the controller. Who knows, this project might make those 4631/4632 printers useful again, considering that noone is going to be getting a new supply of dry silver paper anytime soon. I'm looking for other people that have hardware design experience to join me on this project. All resulting EDA files will be made available under a suitable open source style license. Please reply to me off-list if you are interested in collaborating with me on this project. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 28 21:52:58 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 19:52:58 -0800 Subject: Epson drives In-Reply-To: <4D1A9C42.7070904@netscape.net> References: , <4D1A9C42.7070904@netscape.net> Message-ID: <4D1A401A.6012.24213AB@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Dec 2010 at 21:26, Jim Scheef wrote: > HP did everything it could to shoot itself in the foot. After > promising compatibility among the 100-Series machines, the floppy > format produced by the 9114 driven by the HP110 Portable or the > Portable Plus was different from the format produced by the HP150. > There were clever format programs and device driver tricks to get > around some of these incompatibilities as well as to allow the PPlus > to make and use 3.5" floppies that could also be read and written by > regular DOS machines. Sometimes I find it amazing that HP has > survived! Let's see, HP-150 Series I: 66 cylinders, 1 side, 16 sectors of 256 bytes interleaved 4:1), 1,024 byte clusters, media byte FA, 128 root directory entries. 3 sectors per FAT HP-150 Series II: 77 cylinders, 2 sides, 9 sectors of 512 bytes interleaved 2:1), 1,024 byte clusters, media byte FA, 128 root directory entries. 3 sectors per FAT HP-110: 77 cylinders,2 sides, 9 sectors of 512 bytes interleaved 1:1), but only 8 used, 1,024 byte clusters, media byte FB, 176 root directory entries. 3 sectors per FAT HP Portable Plus: 77 cylinders, 1 side, 5 sectors of 1024 bytes interleaved 1:1), 1,024 byte clusters, media byte FC, 96 root directory entries. 2 sectors per FAT Yup, all mutually incompatible. --Chuck From tosteve at yahoo.com Wed Dec 29 00:58:21 2010 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 22:58:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Old computers on Superbowl? Message-ID: <266132.43443.qm@web110601.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I rented-out a dozen of my old computers to some Hollywood people for use in a Motorola TV commercial, to possibly be shown during the Superbowl. Includes systems from the 70s and 80s, like Sol-20, TRS-80, Osborne 1, SX-64, etc. Keep an eye out for it! From tosteve at yahoo.com Wed Dec 29 00:58:21 2010 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 22:58:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Old computers on Superbowl? Message-ID: <972288.88737.qm@web110615.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I rented-out a dozen of my old computers to some Hollywood people for use in a Motorola TV commercial, to possibly be shown during the Superbowl. Includes systems from the 70s and 80s, like Sol-20, TRS-80, Osborne 1, SX-64, etc. Keep an eye out for it! From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Tue Dec 28 17:08:30 2010 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 23:08:30 +0000 Subject: RetroChallenge Winter Warmup 2011 starts January 1st Message-ID: <4D1A6DEE.4020807@wickensonline.co.uk> The RetroChallenge Winter Warmup 2011 starts on January 1st! If you've not done it before, don't worry, just email me from the link on http://retrochallenge.net/ with a blog URL and what you want to be called and then do as much or little as you can. You'd be surprised what you can fit in over the course of a month. Looking forward to reading about your own corner of 'retro'. *About RetroChallenge* In a nutshell, the RetroChallenge is a loosely disorganised gathering of RetroComputing enthusiasts who collectively do stuff with old computers for a month. The event is very much open to interpretation... individuals set there own challenges, which can range from programming to multimedia work; hardware restoration to exploring legacy networking... or just plain dicking around. It really doesn't matter what you do, just so long as you do it. While the RectroChallenge has its competitive side, it's not really a contest... it's more like global thermonuclear war -- everyone can play, but nobody really wins. Come on... give it a go! From chrise at pobox.com Tue Dec 28 19:13:01 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 19:13:01 -0600 Subject: HP drives In-Reply-To: <4D1A5A7C.1030804@brouhaha.com> References: <4D1A5A7C.1030804@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20101229011301.GN16269@n0jcf.net> On Tuesday (12/28/2010 at 02:45PM -0700), Eric Smith wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: >> Howeer, was there ever a 70 cylinder 5.25" drive? That is one that was >> only designed to use 70 cylinders ? I mean a raw drive, not a >> drive+controller like the HP units we're discussing. > I haven't heard of one, though Micropolis made 77-track 5.25" drives > with 100tpi (vs. 35 or 40 track at 48tpi and 80 track at 96tpi), and a > few other vendors offered compatible drives, e.g. the Tandon TM100-4M, > where the "M" designates it as a 100tpi model. Yes... I can confirm these facts as I have two of each of those 100tpi drives here and they connect to a Micropolis designed controller which served as a reference design for that floppy subsystem. Vector Graphic deployed it in one of their early floppy based systems as well. -- Chris Elmquist From dj.taylor4 at verizon.net Tue Dec 28 20:41:51 2010 From: dj.taylor4 at verizon.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 21:41:51 -0500 Subject: Uncommon: Intel Paragon on iOffer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20101228214029.0249b060@verizon.net> I thought the Paragon was a large rack mounted monster, like the IPSC/860. What I saw in the picture didn't look like anything I would call a 'SuperComputer'. Doug At 03:48 PM 12/28/2010, you wrote: >I had asked the seller about that terminal and he said he would take $200 + >shipping... I have no idea if that is a good price or not. Any ideas? Dunno >what I'd even do with it. > > >-Josh From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Dec 29 10:40:08 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 08:40:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking for a "newer" QIC cartridge drive Message-ID: <195609.11123.qm@web121601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I sent this over to the rescue list as well - it's probably borderline OT here, but I figured it's worth a shot - so apologies if you get this twice. I need to read some full size QIC tape cartridges that were written in an unknown format, but the tapes themselves are the ones intended for the 2 gig drives. I'm not sure if they're compressed, or what density they were actually written at, but since these things are at least somewhat backward compatible, the 4/8 gig drive should be able to read them too. Anyone have one of these drives they could part with? Note that theses are the full size (DC) QIC carts, not the smaller "floppy-tape" ones. -Ian From trebor77 at execpc.com Wed Dec 29 09:51:11 2010 From: trebor77 at execpc.com (Robert J. Stevens) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 09:51:11 -0600 Subject: Looking for EPROM 2708 help In-Reply-To: <4D173AAA.5080004@execpc.com> References: <78a53f42-4ccc-4bcb-9841-6c123cf19b79@n3g2000yqa.googlegroups.com> <4D173AAA.5080004@execpc.com> Message-ID: <4D1B58EF.7000006@execpc.com> I still want to get the N* with Monitor working. I was able to get my BYT-8 working with the N* CPU; My Bus Probe and an IMS SIO-2 card that was originally in the N*. I had to replace the Address Jumper Plug with a Dip Switch and the Monitor recognizes it. The Code executes exactly the same as the N*. So if I can get a new Prom with my Changes burnt it might help me to Diagnose the Problem, I was able to add the DATA IN Buss lines to the Bus Probe so now I can see the results of the IN 3 and IN 2 calls. I still want to add a OUT 2 after each IN 3 so my 232 Analyzer can display the Results for me to help confirm what I am seeing. I get good results from Single Stepping but if I "RUN" the Bus probe the Output to the Analyzer looks like it is getting Multiple Results from each execution of OUT's & IN's. Got to find a way to put a Slow Stepper circuit somewhere on one of my Cards. I've got a MOD to the IMSAI F/P but I'll have to figure out how to implement it Separately. TIA Bob in WI From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Dec 29 11:41:13 2010 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 12:41:13 -0500 Subject: Uncommon: Intel Paragon on iOffer Message-ID: Doug writes > I thought the Paragon was a large rack mounted monster, like the > IPSC/860. What I saw in the picture didn't look like anything I > would call a 'SuperComputer'. The item pictured in the URL of the original post, is a micro-based computer+CRT+media drive diagnostic console. ISTR it's x86 based (?386) and runs some commercial Unix of the era (not SCO...). I may be confusing some of the Delta details with the Paragon. Tim. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Dec 29 12:14:49 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 10:14:49 -0800 Subject: Looking for EPROM 2708 help In-Reply-To: <4D1B58EF.7000006@execpc.com> References: <78a53f42-4ccc-4bcb-9841-6c123cf19b79@n3g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>, <4D173AAA.5080004@execpc.com>, <4D1B58EF.7000006@execpc.com> Message-ID: Hi Bob Until someone can get your 2708, you might just program a more current EPROM and make a socket adapter. I always have a number of 32/28/24 machine pin sockets around in case I need to read some mask ROM with funny selects. I just wire up whatever is needed at the time. Dwight > Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 09:51:11 -0600 > From: trebor77 at execpc.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Looking for EPROM 2708 help > > I still want to get the N* with Monitor working. I was able to get my > BYT-8 working with the N* CPU; My Bus Probe and an IMS SIO-2 card that > was originally in the N*. I had to replace the Address Jumper Plug with > a Dip Switch and the Monitor recognizes it. The Code executes exactly > the same as the N*. So if I can get a new Prom with my Changes burnt it > might help me to Diagnose the Problem, I was able to add the DATA IN > Buss lines to the Bus Probe so now I can see the results of the IN 3 and > IN 2 calls. I still want to add a OUT 2 after each IN 3 so my 232 > Analyzer can display the Results for me to help confirm what I am > seeing. I get good results from Single Stepping but if I "RUN" the Bus > probe the Output to the Analyzer looks like it is getting Multiple > Results from each execution of OUT's & IN's. Got to find a way to put a > Slow Stepper circuit somewhere on one of my Cards. I've got a MOD to the > IMSAI F/P but I'll have to figure out how to implement it Separately. > TIA > Bob in WI From david at classiccomputing.com Wed Dec 29 12:18:58 2010 From: david at classiccomputing.com (David Greelish) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 13:18:58 -0500 Subject: Old computers on Superbowl? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Message: 12 > Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 22:58:21 -0800 (PST) > From: steven stengel > Subject: > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <266132.43443.qm at web110601.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > I rented-out a dozen of my old computers to some Hollywood people for use in a Motorola TV commercial, to possibly be shown during the Superbowl. > > Includes systems from the 70s and 80s, like Sol-20, TRS-80, Osborne 1, SX-64, etc. > > Keep an eye out for it! Steven, Did they happen to say what the theme of the commercial is? Perhaps the computers will serve as technology backdrops to the evolution of their phones? Best, David Greelish, Computer Historian Classic Computing The Home of Computer History Nostalgia http://www.classiccomputing.com Classic Computing Blog Classic Computing Show video podcast "Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer" audiobook podcast Retro Computing Roundtable podcast Historical Computer Society Classic Computing Expo 1.0 - planning for sometime late 2011! From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Wed Dec 29 12:53:02 2010 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 10:53:02 -0800 Subject: 40 track 5.25-in FDD [was: RE: HP drives] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0F865200B2DC4A89B1BBE161180C295D@tegp4> > Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 11:48:10 -0800 > From: "Holley, Michael" > Subject: RE: HP drives > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > <1775CC70CD47484EA68ACCD903F02CB302387DD7 at na3-mail.mgc.mentorg.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > The original Shugart SA400 minifloppy (August 1976) only allowed 35 > tracks. In early 1977 Wangco announced the Model 82 Micro Floppy that > allowed 40 tracks with new media. > > Here is a photo of both disks. > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Verbatim_5.25_minidisk_tracks_1978.jp g > > Michael Holley FWIW, I've been told the reason the SA400 could not go beyond 35 tracks was that it used the same slider as the 8-inch product that could run into the spindle. The SA400L was a redesign that allowed the carriage to go further in. If anyone cares, I can get details from some ex-Shugart Associates friends. Can anyone confirm that Wangco was the FIRST to go to 40 tracks? FWIW I'm told by Shugart Alumni that it was Tandon. Tom From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 29 12:45:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 18:45:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP drives In-Reply-To: from "Geoffrey Reed" at Dec 28, 10 04:52:03 pm Message-ID: > ISTR: the 8" drives at least as used in tandy computers formatted out to 77 > tracks.... Were there 8" drives that had something other than 77 cylinders? Perhaps the very early IBM ones with the index holes around the outside edge? Certainly all the ones I've come across were 77 cylinders. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 29 12:48:57 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 18:48:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP drives In-Reply-To: <4D1A190F.1370.1A993D0@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 28, 10 05:06:23 pm Message-ID: > > On 28 Dec 2010 at 16:52, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > > > ISTR: the 8" drives at least as used in tandy computers formatted out > > to 77 tracks.... > > That's standard for all 8" drives--and it's "cylinders", please! 8" > drives can be double-sided with 2 tracks per cylinder. I thought that at least the earlier Tandy 8" machines had single-head drives, in which case'track' == 'cylinder'. I can't rememebr which machine it was, but one machine with 5.25" drives claimed to have '80 track' drives. What they actually were were 40 cylinder, 2 head drives. So technically they did have 80 tracks, but it caused a lot of confusion at the time. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 29 12:55:38 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 18:55:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Epson drives In-Reply-To: <4D1A9C42.7070904@netscape.net> from "Jim Scheef" at Dec 28, 10 09:26:10 pm Message-ID: > > HP did everything it could to shoot itself in the foot. After promising > compatibility among the 100-Series machines, the floppy format produced > by the 9114 driven by the HP110 Portable or the Portable Plus was > different from the format produced by the HP150. There were clever I will say more in a reply to a later message. I don't doubt you are correct (I have tried to avoid MS-DOS machines whether HP or not :-)), but I have never had any problems reading HP150 disks on a Portable+ or vice versa. The Portable+ Technical Reference Manual (yes, there is one, and yse, it's rarer than hen's teeth) contains no information on the physical disk format at all. It does claim that an HP150B or C (that's one that supports double sided drives) can read/write Portable+ disks. It also gives a procedure for formatting a single-sided disk on the Portable+ which can then beread/written on the HP150A (single-sided drives only). The manual also says (and I have proved this to be correct) that you can use HP150 SS/80 drives (hard ar floppy) on the Portable+ using an 82169 HPIL-HPIB translater, provided the latter has a late enough firmware version (there's a serial number given in the manaula, after which the 82169 will work). You can also used Amigo drives (like the single-sided floppies) if you load a device driver in config.sys on the Poerable+ (the driver is in the ROM). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 29 13:53:46 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 19:53:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Dec 28, 10 08:20:33 pm Message-ID: > > OK, I've been studying the circuit diagrams and service manuals for > the Tektronix 4014 printer interface: > > > > > I'm starting a project to create a modern printer interface for the > terminal. This involves creating the optional target signal amplifier > board for the 4010/4014 and creating a microcontroller based board > that will drive the terminal like a 4631 printer and scan out the > image from the storage tube for digitizing as a digital image. The > amplifier board is what distinguishes a 4010/4014 from a 4010/4014-1 > and provides the signals for the printer. I beelive a lot ot Tektronix storage tiube devices, not just terminals, ahd this interface. So your printer controller would hav wider applications. > > The original 4631 printer is a completely analog device that scans out > the storage tube and transfers the electrical signal to a dry silver > paper for printing. This design will treat the analog signal supplied I thought it was partially photographic, which a 1-line CRT (a very odd looking tube) pointing at light sensitive paper. But it's been a long time since I was inside one. > to the printer as a signal for digitizing into a raster image. I plan > on housing mine inside a 4632 video hardcopy shell with a modern printer I was very happy with this project until I read that part. I am totlaly in favour iof making modern peripherals for old machines. But I really don;t like stripping classic hardware for no good reason.Sure the paper for the 631 is unobtainable now. But I still feel the design of said printer is interesting, and they should be preserved if possible. > inside driven by the controller. Who knows, this project might make > those 4631/4632 printers useful again, considering that noone is going > to be getting a new supply of dry silver paper anytime soon. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 29 14:03:52 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 20:03:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Epson drives In-Reply-To: <4D1A401A.6012.24213AB@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 28, 10 07:52:58 pm Message-ID: > Let's see, I don;t doubt what you say, as I know you have a lot more experience of this than I do. But there are a few comments... I have the Techncial Reference Manuals for the Portable+, HP150 and HP150-II. I do not, alas, have the manual for the HP110. Unfortuantely they don't say much about the physical disk formats. The Portable+ manual skips over that entirely. The HP150 and 150-II manuals have a very brief summary, roughlu what you've given below. > > > HP-150 Series I: 66 cylinders, 1 side, 16 sectors of 256 bytes > interleaved 4:1), > 1,024 byte clusters, media byte FA, > 128 root directory entries. > 3 sectors per FAT > > HP-150 Series II: 77 cylinders, 2 sides, 9 sectors of 512 bytes > interleaved 2:1), > 1,024 byte clusters, media byte FA, > 128 root directory entries. > 3 sectors per FAT This is not strictly accurate. A single-sided drive can be connected to the HP150-II, at which point is uses the 66 cylinder, etc, format, AFIK totally compatible with the earlier HP150. HP150s with Reve D firmware (I think only Rev D and Rev F were released) can only use single sided drives using the Amigo protocol All HP150-IIs have Rev F frimware, and from what I can determine, you could get Rev F frimware as n upgrade for the HP150. Machines with Rev F frimware can use SS/80 double-sided drives. > > HP-110: 77 cylinders,2 sides, 9 sectors of 512 bytes > interleaved 1:1), but only 8 used, > 1,024 byte clusters, media byte FB, > 176 root directory entries. > 3 sectors per FAT > > HP Portable Plus: 77 cylinders, 1 side, 5 sectors of 1024 bytes > interleaved 1:1), > 1,024 byte clusters, media byte FC, > 96 root directory entries. > 2 sectors per FAT > > Yup, all mutually incompatible. I have certianly read HP150-II double-sided disks on a portable+ with no problems. I have also connected HP150-II SS/80 hard disk units to a portable+ with no problems. And as I mentioned in an earlier reply, the Portable+ manual has some information about using Amigo drifves and formatting single-sided disks on the Portable+ Which are then claimed to be compatible with the HP150, I am suprised HP made such a mess of this. The LIF disk format was pretty much universal. To the extent that you can use the same disk with an HP41 calculator, an H71 handhled computer and an HP9000/200 series machine. Oh, and I believe quite a bit of test gear too. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 29 14:11:15 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 20:11:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Epson drives In-Reply-To: <4D1A9C42.7070904@netscape.net> from "Jim Scheef" at Dec 28, 10 09:26:10 pm Message-ID: > Sometimes I find it amazing that HP has survived! > They haven't, or at least the HP I knew and loved is no more. I do not consider going from a manufacturer of some very nice measuring instruments to a manufactuer of printers and scanners (and not always particularly good ones) to be 'survival' -tony From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 29 16:18:52 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 14:18:52 -0800 Subject: HP drives In-Reply-To: References: <4D1A190F.1370.1A993D0@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 28, 10 05:06:23 pm, Message-ID: <4D1B434C.23438.DE87F4@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Dec 2010 at 18:48, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > On 28 Dec 2010 at 16:52, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > > > > > ISTR: the 8" drives at least as used in tandy computers formatted > > > out to 77 tracks.... > > > > That's standard for all 8" drives--and it's "cylinders", please! 8" > > drives can be double-sided with 2 tracks per cylinder. > > I thought that at least the earlier Tandy 8" machines had single-head > drives, in which case'track' == 'cylinder'. My point was that the OP stated "8" drives at least as used in tandy computers..." and that I have a Model 16 for example, that uses 8" DS drives. > I can't rememebr which machine it was, but one machine with 5.25" > drives claimed to have '80 track' drives. What they actually were were > 40 cylinder, 2 head drives. So technically they did have 80 tracks, > but it caused a lot of confusion at the time. I've seen many times where the characteristics of a 3.5" floppy are given as "160 tracks". My take is that if you mean a physical head position, it's best to say "cylinders". Just as you would with a hard drive. For the life of me, I don't see why some folks insist on treating the nomenclature for hard and floppy drives differently. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 29 16:26:23 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 14:26:23 -0800 Subject: HP drives In-Reply-To: References: from "Geoffrey Reed" at Dec 28, 10 04:52:03 pm, Message-ID: <4D1B450F.23559.E56BC0@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Dec 2010 at 18:45, Tony Duell wrote: > > ISTR: the 8" drives at least as used in tandy computers formatted > > out to 77 tracks.... > > Were there 8" drives that had something other than 77 cylinders? > Perhaps the very early IBM ones with the index holes around the > outside edge? Certainly all the ones I've come across were 77 > cylinders. Are you perhaps thinking of the Memorex 651 disks with outer-edge holes and a large "notch" along one side? Those were 64 cylinders, 32-hard-sector, spinning at 375 RPM. Same FM data rate, though (250 Kbit/sec) as the Shugart-style 8" floppies. I think some of the early IBM models (did they ever get into production?) used 8 sector holes along the outer edge. --Chuck From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Dec 29 18:02:37 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 16:02:37 -0800 Subject: HP drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/29/10 10:48 AM, "Tony Duell" wrote: >> >> On 28 Dec 2010 at 16:52, Geoffrey Reed wrote: >> >>> ISTR: the 8" drives at least as used in tandy computers formatted out >>> to 77 tracks.... >> >> That's standard for all 8" drives--and it's "cylinders", please! 8" >> drives can be double-sided with 2 tracks per cylinder. > > I thought that at least the earlier Tandy 8" machines had single-head > drives, in which case'track' == 'cylinder'. > > I can't rememebr which machine it was, but one machine with 5.25" drives > claimed to have '80 track' drives. What they actually were were 40 > cylinder, 2 head drives. So technically they did have 80 tracks, but it > caused a lot of confusion at the time. > > -tony I really miss my tandy 16 and 6000. Had the whole house set up (when I was younger) with terminals off my tandy xenix machines, plus a modem on one of them so we could pull newsgroups :) And the 2's that had SS drives, called them tracks. So it was habit also IIRC, when you formatted the disks the trsdos and CP/M called them tracks, (it has been a LONG time since I've had any tandy 2,12,16 or 6000 in my posession so that it is foggy memory here.) From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Dec 29 18:19:58 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 17:19:58 -0700 Subject: HP drives In-Reply-To: <4D1B450F.23559.E56BC0@cclist.sydex.com> References: from "Geoffrey Reed" at Dec 28, 10 04:52:03 pm, <4D1B450F.23559.E56BC0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D1BD02E.5030207@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I think some of the early IBM [8-inch floppy drive] > models (did they ever get into production?) > used 8 sector holes along the outer edge. The original 8-inch floppy drive was the IBM 23FD "Minnow", which was used as a read-only device to load microcode into the 3330 controller, and other System/370 control units and peripherals. Presumably IBM had special drives in-house for writing the disks sent to customers. The disks spun at 90 rpm (vs. 36), and used FM encoding at 33.3 Kbps. They had 32 tracks at 32 tpi (vs 77 tracks at 48 tpi), eight sectors per track, and the total formatted capacity was 81,664 bytes. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 29 19:13:06 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 17:13:06 -0800 Subject: HP drives In-Reply-To: <4D1BD02E.5030207@brouhaha.com> References: , <4D1B450F.23559.E56BC0@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D1BD02E.5030207@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4D1B6C22.12107.17E0C23@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Dec 2010 at 17:19, Eric Smith wrote: > The original 8-inch floppy drive was the IBM 23FD "Minnow", which was > used as a read-only device to load microcode into the 3330 controller, > and other System/370 control units and peripherals. Presumably IBM > had special drives in-house for writing the disks sent to customers. Did IBM ever use the Memorex 651 drives? --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 29 19:31:13 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 17:31:13 -0800 Subject: OT: Scrapper question Message-ID: <4D1B7061.10862.18EA44E@cclist.sydex.com> Does anyone know if tantalum is recovered from electronic waste? No particular reason for asking, other than pure curiosity. Thanks, Chuck From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Dec 29 19:34:28 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 20:34:28 -0500 Subject: Debugging under RSTS/E Message-ID: <4D1BE1A4.5000907@compsys.to> I have probably asked this question before, but without the additional information. I am enhancing the code in a program that runs under RSTS/E (or at least the RT-11 RTS under RSTS/E), RT-11, TSX-Plus and RTEM-11 (or at least some sort of RT-11 emulation under RSX-11 which Johnny has described to me before, but which I am not quite sure how to characterize). Quite recently (just yesterday in fact), I attempted to use ODT* again under RT-11. Ever since SD(X).SYS arrived in RT-11 with V05.04, ODT* has no longer been very useful. However, I was rather surprised to find that it not only works quite well, but in addition, does not freeze system jobs. Being in an experimental mood, I also managed to copy ODT.SAV* over to RSTS/E and found to my astonishment that it also works there very well, I presume under the RT-11 RTS under RSTS/E. My question is: How does a user debug a program under the RT-11 RTS under RSTS/E? Is ODT* generally considered the only way? Up until now, I did not even have an answer. And no one else seemed to know either. There is one rather minor difficulty with using ODT* in that I do not have the source for the program that is being enhanced and I must work with just the SAV file. If anyone is interested, I can let them know how I solve that problem as well. In addition, I still do not have any documentation for how RTEM-11 supports RT-11 EMT requests? Can anyone help? Does anyone have access to a running RTEM-11 that I can at least use to perform some tests? Jerome Fine * For those of you who know better, I am actually using the variation of ODT called VDT which does everything that ODT does, but also runs in a multi-terminal environment as well as under the normal single terminal monitors such as the distributed RT11XM.SYS monitors that DEC produces for the binary RT-11 distributions. To my surprise, VDT also runs under VBGEXE, although I actually tried that after running VDT.SAV under the RT-11 RTS under RSTS/E. About the only advantage to using VDT is that SDX.SYS freezes system jobs during a breakpoint while VDT does NOT affect the operation of a system job, i.e. the system job keeps right on running even when VDT is holding the background job at a breakpoint. In my testing situation, this is a big advantage. Of course, the advantage of VDT under RSTS/E is that this seems to be the ONLY way to have debug capability. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 29 19:47:03 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 20:47:03 -0500 Subject: HP drives In-Reply-To: <4D1B450F.23559.E56BC0@cclist.sydex.com> References: from "Geoffrey Reed" at Dec 28, 10 04:52:03 pm, <4D1B450F.23559.E56BC0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D1BE497.6020102@neurotica.com> On 12/29/10 5:26 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> ISTR: the 8" drives at least as used in tandy computers formatted >>> out to 77 tracks.... >> >> Were there 8" drives that had something other than 77 cylinders? >> Perhaps the very early IBM ones with the index holes around the >> outside edge? Certainly all the ones I've come across were 77 >> cylinders. > > Are you perhaps thinking of the Memorex 651 disks with outer-edge > holes and a large "notch" along one side? Those were 64 cylinders, > 32-hard-sector, spinning at 375 RPM. Same FM data rate, though (250 > Kbit/sec) as the Shugart-style 8" floppies. > > I think some of the early IBM models (did they ever get into > production?) used 8 sector holes along the outer edge. I have several boxes of disks (I seem to recall having discussed them here before) that I *think* are IBM-labeled but I'm not certain, as I last actually looked at them many years ago. I know I still have them and I know where they are, but I'm several states away at the moment and can't check. Anyway, they have a large notch along one side, and sector holes around the outer perimeter of the disk. The only thing I'm not 100% certain of is whether or not they're IBM. I'll check when I can. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Dec 29 19:54:40 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 18:54:40 -0700 Subject: HP drives In-Reply-To: <4D1B6C22.12107.17E0C23@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4D1B450F.23559.E56BC0@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D1BD02E.5030207@brouhaha.com> <4D1B6C22.12107.17E0C23@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D1BE660.4020608@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Did IBM ever use the Memorex 651 drives? I can't say for sure, but I rather doubt it. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 29 20:07:58 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 18:07:58 -0800 Subject: HP drives In-Reply-To: <4D1BE497.6020102@neurotica.com> References: , <4D1B450F.23559.E56BC0@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D1BE497.6020102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D1B78FE.11367.1B048EA@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Dec 2010 at 20:47, Dave McGuire wrote: > I have several boxes of disks (I seem to recall having discussed > them here before) that I *think* are IBM-labeled but I'm not certain, > as I last actually looked at them many years ago. I know I still have > them and I know where they are, but I'm several states away at the > moment and can't check. Anyway, they have a large notch along one > side, and sector holes around the outer perimeter of the disk. > > The only thing I'm not 100% certain of is whether or not they're > IBM. Those certainly sound like Memorex 651 floppies; there's documentation for the 651 on bitsavers, if you want to compare notes. --Chuck From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Wed Dec 29 20:58:49 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 20:58:49 -0600 Subject: OT: Scrapper question In-Reply-To: <4D1B7061.10862.18EA44E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D1B7061.10862.18EA44E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 17:31:13 -0800 > Subject: OT: Scrapper question > > Does anyone know if tantalum is recovered from electronic waste? > > No particular reason for asking, other than pure curiosity. > > Thanks, > Chuck > I don't believe anything is recovered from electronic waste. It's all put on a boat to China (including the disposal fee) for recovery, and then ends up in a landfill. >From there, the toxic metals are returned to us in the form of children's toys. Randy From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Dec 29 21:25:46 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 19:25:46 -0800 Subject: Old computers on Superbowl? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Are you suggesting that their phones *have* evolved? :-p ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Greelish [david at classiccomputing.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 10:18 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Old computers on Superbowl? > Message: 12 > Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 22:58:21 -0800 (PST) > From: steven stengel > Subject: > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <266132.43443.qm at web110601.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > I rented-out a dozen of my old computers to some Hollywood people for use in a Motorola TV commercial, to possibly be shown during the Superbowl. > > Includes systems from the 70s and 80s, like Sol-20, TRS-80, Osborne 1, SX-64, etc. > > Keep an eye out for it! Steven, Did they happen to say what the theme of the commercial is? Perhaps the computers will serve as technology backdrops to the evolution of their phones? Best, David Greelish, Computer Historian Classic Computing The Home of Computer History Nostalgia http://www.classiccomputing.com Classic Computing Blog Classic Computing Show video podcast "Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer" audiobook podcast Retro Computing Roundtable podcast Historical Computer Society Classic Computing Expo 1.0 - planning for sometime late 2011! From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Dec 29 22:01:57 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 23:01:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Source for OKI clock chip? Message-ID: I'm trying to find a source for an OKI MSM6242 RTC chip (18-pin DIP package). As usual, all my Google searches turn up dozens and dozens of sleazy-looking "we can get you anything, submit an RFQ.." sites. This is the chip used in Amiga 2000s. I'm not sure if there are any workable cross-references. Steve -- From michael_holley at mentor.com Wed Dec 29 22:23:33 2010 From: michael_holley at mentor.com (Holley, Michael) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 20:23:33 -0800 Subject: 40 track 5.25-in FDD [was: RE: HP drives] In-Reply-To: <0F865200B2DC4A89B1BBE161180C295D@tegp4> References: <0F865200B2DC4A89B1BBE161180C295D@tegp4> Message-ID: <1775CC70CD47484EA68ACCD903F02CB3023880AB@na3-mail.mgc.mentorg.com> Shugart's trademark registration for Minifloppy states the first use in commerce was on August 27, 1976. That was when the first production drives were shipped to Wang Laboratories for use in their PCS II desktop computer. Deliveries of the PCS II systems were to begin in June 1977. Shugart had shown a prototype of the Minifloppy to select customers in April 1976 and at a trade show in May 1976. Wangco announced the Model 82 Micro-Floppy in late 1976 stating that evaluation units were to be available in January 1977. (This press release was in the February 1977 of IEEE Computer. This magazine was always a month or so behind other trade magazines in announcements.) Shugart had a design patent on the front panel and door latch (Des 249,343) so Wangco had to have different front panel. Shugart later licensed the double sided heads from Tandon and gave a licensed Tandon to use the Shugart front panel on their TM-100 drive that was released in November 1978. The TM-100 drive was use on the original IBM PC (5150). Michael Holley -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tom Gardner Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 10:53 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: 40 track 5.25-in FDD [was: RE: HP drives] > Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 11:48:10 -0800 > From: "Holley, Michael" > Subject: RE: HP drives > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > <1775CC70CD47484EA68ACCD903F02CB302387DD7 at na3-mail.mgc.mentorg.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > The original Shugart SA400 minifloppy (August 1976) only allowed 35 > tracks. In early 1977 Wangco announced the Model 82 Micro Floppy that > allowed 40 tracks with new media. > > Here is a photo of both disks. > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Verbatim_5.25_minidisk_tracks_197 8.jpg > > Michael Holley FWIW, I've been told the reason the SA400 could not go beyond 35 tracks was that it used the same slider as the 8-inch product that could run into the spindle. The SA400L was a redesign that allowed the carriage to go further in. If anyone cares, I can get details from some ex-Shugart Associates friends. Can anyone confirm that Wangco was the FIRST to go to 40 tracks? FWIW I'm told by Shugart Alumni that it was Tandon. Tom From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Dec 29 22:28:59 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 20:28:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Source for OKI clock chip? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Dec 2010, Steven Hirsch wrote: > I'm trying to find a source for an OKI MSM6242 RTC chip (18-pin DIP package). > As usual, all my Google searches turn up dozens and dozens of sleazy-looking > "we can get you anything, submit an RFQ.." sites. > > This is the chip used in Amiga 2000s. I'm not sure if there are any workable > cross-references. I see that littlediode.com has it in a SOP24 package for about US$12. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Dec 29 23:20:14 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 21:20:14 -0800 Subject: OT: Scrapper question In-Reply-To: <4D1B7061.10862.18EA44E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D1B7061.10862.18EA44E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Hi Chuck A previous neighbor was a scrap metal man. When he got PC boards, he'd cut the tantalums and gold fingers. Most of the rest he'd toss. It may have changed some since then. That was about 15-20 years ago. I recall he had a number boards with 80C187s on them. I tried to explain to him that these where worth more than a box full of these boards scrapped for gold and tantalums. He never figured it out though. Dwight > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 17:31:13 -0800 > Subject: OT: Scrapper question > > Does anyone know if tantalum is recovered from electronic waste? > > No particular reason for asking, other than pure curiosity. > > Thanks, > Chuck > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Dec 29 23:41:13 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 21:41:13 -0800 Subject: HP drives In-Reply-To: References: <4D1A190F.1370.1A993D0@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Message-ID: > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > > > > > On 28 Dec 2010 at 16:52, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > > > > > ISTR: the 8" drives at least as used in tandy computers formatted out > > > to 77 tracks.... > > > > That's standard for all 8" drives--and it's "cylinders", please! 8" > > drives can be double-sided with 2 tracks per cylinder. > > I thought that at least the earlier Tandy 8" machines had single-head > drives, in which case'track' == 'cylinder'. > > I can't rememebr which machine it was, but one machine with 5.25" drives > claimed to have '80 track' drives. What they actually were were 40 > cylinder, 2 head drives. So technically they did have 80 tracks, but it > caused a lot of confusion at the time. > > -tony Hi I always considered track and cylinder to mean the same for single sided. For doule sided, Thre would be two tracks per cylinder. Dwight From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Dec 29 23:43:39 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 21:43:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: 3B2 questions Message-ID: <818599.94027.qm@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Well, I now have a 3B2/310 that will power up and talk to a serial terminal. I have two hard drives, but neither one works - one makes horrible squealing noises, the other only makes annoying squealing noises... I really need the Devtools floppy to boot and format hard drives, so I can install another disk. I did manage to track down a disk image of a diagnostic disk, containing FILLEDT, but I can't get it to run the program from disk, it hits a firmware error. This might be intended for some other 3B2. I also found the SCSI tools disk, which only formats SCSI hard drives. I need the Devtools floppy intended for the MFM drives. Does anyone have a disk image of this floppy, preferably in ImageDisk format? Thanks! -Ian From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Dec 30 02:49:50 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 06:49:50 -0200 Subject: Source for OKI clock chip? References: Message-ID: <775476B4649C46D388383454805E78B5@portajara> > I'm trying to find a source for an OKI MSM6242 RTC chip (18-pin DIP > package). As usual, all my Google searches turn up dozens and dozens of > sleazy-looking "we can get you anything, submit an RFQ.." sites. Steve, do you need ONE or more? I may have one stashed somewhere... From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Dec 30 06:48:56 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 12:48:56 +0000 Subject: Source for OKI clock chip? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D1C7FB8.5010204@philpem.me.uk> On 30/12/10 04:01, Steven Hirsch wrote: > I'm trying to find a source for an OKI MSM6242 RTC chip (18-pin DIP > package). As usual, all my Google searches turn up dozens and dozens of > sleazy-looking "we can get you anything, submit an RFQ.." sites. > > This is the chip used in Amiga 2000s. I'm not sure if there are any > workable cross-references. I've a sneaking suspicion the same chip is used on the old HTEC Kitty Card 8051 board (as sold by Greenweld many moons ago, back when they weren't an Innovations Catalogue knockoff). Catch is, I can't find the circuit diagram to confirm this -- it's either on the LAN share, or one of the hot-swap SATA drives. So that's four different places to look... If it turns out they do use the same chip, I've got four of them stashed in a box under my workbench -- I might be persuaded to part with a board or RTC chip, but as I recall they aren't socketed, so removing one intact might be a bit tricky. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From trebor77 at execpc.com Thu Dec 30 12:03:50 2010 From: trebor77 at execpc.com (Robert J. Stevens) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 12:03:50 -0600 Subject: Looking for a 26 PIN Female to a 25 PIN DB25 Ribbon Cable In-Reply-To: <4D1B58EF.7000006@execpc.com> References: <78a53f42-4ccc-4bcb-9841-6c123cf19b79@n3g2000yqa.googlegroups.com> <4D173AAA.5080004@execpc.com> <4D1B58EF.7000006@execpc.com> Message-ID: <4D1CC986.3000302@execpc.com> I am Looking for a 26 PIN Female to a 25 PIN DB25 Ribbon Cable. I am going to try to test a HSIO 4 Port Serial Card Meant for a N* Horizon. I checked Jameco but they don't have any of the 26 Pin Female Ribbon Connectors thats fits over the Dual Row of PINs on the HSIO card TIA Bob in Wisconsin From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Thu Dec 30 13:08:57 2010 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 13:08:57 -0600 Subject: FS: Texas Instruments POS terminal Message-ID: <9jkph6tep2hbd0ad8s6rmp6ovpeaik54ih@4ax.com> No, not that kind of POS, but "Point Of Sale"! http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x426/DrCharlesMorris/P2150003.jpg http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x426/DrCharlesMorris/P2150005.jpg http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x426/DrCharlesMorris/P2150004.jpg It has an 8080A processor, a vacuum fluorescent display, keypad, 20 LED's, and line-operated (120 ac) power supply. I bought it from Jameco many, many (25+) years ago and am tired of tripping over it. I hate to strip it just for the 8080A and EPROMs since it looks like a good foundation for... something. Would someone like it for the bargain price of $7.00 plus the actual shipping from US zip 65775? thanks Charles From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 30 13:16:32 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 11:16:32 -0800 Subject: Looking for a 26 PIN Female to a 25 PIN DB25 Ribbon Cable In-Reply-To: <4D1CC986.3000302@execpc.com> References: <78a53f42-4ccc-4bcb-9841-6c123cf19b79@n3g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>, <4D1B58EF.7000006@execpc.com>, <4D1CC986.3000302@execpc.com> Message-ID: <4D1C6A10.4226.43D3C5@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Dec 2010 at 12:03, Robert J. Stevens wrote: > I am Looking for a 26 PIN Female to a 25 PIN DB25 Ribbon Cable. I am > going to try to test a HSIO 4 Port Serial Card Meant for a N* Horizon. > I checked Jameco but they don't have any of the 26 Pin Female Ribbon > Connectors thats fits over the Dual Row of PINs on the HSIO card TIA > Bob in Wisconsin Jameco P/N 525413 (see catalog page http://www.jameco.com/Jameco/catalogs/c103/P79.pdf ) Is this what you need? --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 30 12:35:47 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 18:35:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP drives In-Reply-To: <4D1B434C.23438.DE87F4@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 29, 10 02:18:52 pm Message-ID: > I've seen many times where the characteristics of a 3.5" floppy are > given as "160 tracks". My take is that if you mean a physical head > position, it's best to say "cylinders". I absolutely agree, and I try to do this. Doubtless I sometimes get it wrong, but .... However, like the term 'DB9 connector' (which you and I both know nearly always mean 'DE9 connector'), alas the misuse of 'track' has become common usage. An awful lot of people would claim the 3.5" drive in a PC was an '80 track' device. It is, of course, 160 tracks with 80 cylinders each containing 2 tracks. I guess what I am saying is while it helps to be correct, it also helps to know common incorrect usage of such terms. > Just as you would with a hard drive. For the life of me, I don't see > why some folks insist on treating the nomenclature for hard and > floppy drives differently. Alas they don't :-(. I've heard the term 'track' used for hard drives when they meant 'cylinders'. ARGH!!! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 30 12:39:39 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 18:39:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TRS-80 Model II/12/16 (was Re : HP Drives) In-Reply-To: from "Geoffrey Reed" at Dec 29, 10 04:02:37 pm Message-ID: > I really miss my tandy 16 and 6000. Had the whole house set up (when I was > younger) with terminals off my tandy xenix machines, plus a modem on one of > them so we could pull newsgroups :) I am jealous :-) I grew up with TRS-80s, I had (and still have, of course) a Model 1, Model 3, Model 4 and varisu CoCos (including a CoCo 3, whcih is not common in the UK). I still sue my Model 4 for disk conversions, etc. However, alas I nver had any of the 2/12/16 machines. I would love to find a Model 16 or similar, but realistically, it's unlikely to happen, It would ahve to be somewher ethat I could collect it from after all... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 30 12:46:03 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 18:46:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP drives In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Dec 29, 10 09:41:13 pm Message-ID: > I always considered track and cylinder to mean the same > for single sided. > For doule sided=2C Thre would be two tracks per cylinder. And I would agree with you... However, I'll bet that if you ask a reasnablu 'techy' PC person 'how many tracks are there on a 1.44M vfloppy disk' you will not get the answer '160' (whcih is the technically correct answer).. Most will answer '80'. I would probably say 'There are 80 cylinders, each of 2 tracks', particularly if I suspected it was a trick question :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 30 13:50:03 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 19:50:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP Portable+ disks Message-ID: Although the HP Portable+ Technical Reference doesn't contain anything on the physical disk formats, there's a table in the usner manual for the FORMAT comamnd (I've changed the headings a bit, but the data is the same) : Specifier #sides Secotr size Capacity Files in root dir /w 1 256 264192 128 /x 2 256 618496 304 /y 2 512 700416 176 /z 2 1024 780288 96 none 2 512 700416 176 The default seems to be the same as other HP MS-DOS double-sided disks. I wonder if Chuck (I think) got a disk formatted wit hthe /z option from a Portable+ and sassumed it was the defualt? -tony From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 30 14:06:19 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 12:06:19 -0800 Subject: HP Portable+ disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D1C75BB.24106.716962@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Dec 2010 at 19:50, Tony Duell wrote: > I wonder if Chuck (I think) got a disk formatted wit hthe /z option > from a Portable+ and sassumed it was the defualt? Perhaps--I do rely on samples sent by customers. If the customer gets the product and it works just fine for them, I consider the case closed. The fact that someone identified the sample with any accuracy at all was remarkable. I've had samples given as being from a Hazeltine computer (the customer not realizing that the terminal was made by Hazeltine, not the computer itself) or, lately and more common-- "here's a box of floppies; I don't remember what they came from." That can be a real adventure, seeing word-processor disks mixed in with old 400K Mac disks mixed in with various flavors of MS-DOS and CP/M disks. --Chuck From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Dec 30 14:13:51 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 12:13:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRS-80 Model II/12/16 (was Re : HP Drives) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <290413.37675.qm@web121610.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 12/30/10, Tony Duell wrote: > > I really miss my tandy 16 and > 6000. Had the whole house set up (when I was > > younger) with terminals off my tandy xenix machines, > plus a modem on one of > > them so we could pull newsgroups :) > > I am jealous :-) Yeah... I've been steadily working towards getting a working TRS-80 Xenix machine. At the moment, I have enough parts (I believe) to make a working Model II, and a line on the 68000 board. Unfortunately, the difficult part to find is a hard disk. I have the Model II host adapter for the early TRS-80 Eight Meg drive (which is, of course, completely incompatible with anything else), but no drive. I can't even cobble it to a regular MFM drive, since the actual disk controller is in the drive cabinet (I have only the host adapter). Unfortunately, you can't really run Xenix without a hard drive. -Ian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 30 15:07:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 21:07:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP Portable+ disks In-Reply-To: <4D1C75BB.24106.716962@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 30, 10 12:06:19 pm Message-ID: > > On 30 Dec 2010 at 19:50, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I wonder if Chuck (I think) got a disk formatted wit hthe /z option > > from a Portable+ and sassumed it was the defualt? > > Perhaps--I do rely on samples sent by customers. If the customer > gets the product and it works just fine for them, I consider the case > closed. Sure. And the Portable+ most certainly can format a disk with 1024 byte sectors, etc, as standard However, it does appear that by default the HP MS-DOS machines of the time did have a common disk format which makes a lot more sense. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 30 15:11:27 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 21:11:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TRS-80 Model II/12/16 (was Re : HP Drives) In-Reply-To: <290413.37675.qm@web121610.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Mr Ian Primus" at Dec 30, 10 12:13:51 pm Message-ID: > Yeah... I've been steadily working towards getting a working TRS-80 > Xenix machine. At the moment, I have enough parts (I believe) to make a > working Model II, and a line on the 68000 board. Unfortunately, the > difficult part to find is a hard disk. I have the Model II host adapter > for the early TRS-80 Eight Meg drive (which is, of course, completely > incompatible with anything else), but no drive. I can't even cobble it > to a regular MFM drive, since the actual disk controller is in the drive > cabinet (I have only the host adapter). Unfortunately, you can't really > run Xenix without a hard drive. I wonder... The Model 1/3/4 hard disk system consisted of a WD1001 controller board, a disk drive and a very simple host adapter (just an address decoder really). I would not be suprised if the M2 one was similar in concept. Radio Shack were also very good about supplying technical/service manuals (one reason I liked their machines, yes even back then I knew the value of a schematic!), so I suspect some information on the M2 hard disk system exists. I wonder how hard itwould be to make up a devie to plug into the host adapter, appear to have the smae M2-accessible registers, but using some mode modern storage device. Probsbly a lot easier than replacing an ST412 hard disk, for example. -tony From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Dec 30 15:45:57 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 13:45:57 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model II/12/16 (was Re : HP Drives) In-Reply-To: <290413.37675.qm@web121610.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 12/30/10 12:13 PM, "Mr Ian Primus" wrote: > > Yeah... I've been steadily working towards getting a working TRS-80 Xenix > machine. At the moment, I have enough parts (I believe) to make a working > Model II, and a line on the 68000 board. Unfortunately, the difficult part to > find is a hard disk. I have the Model II host adapter for the early TRS-80 > Eight Meg drive (which is, of course, completely incompatible with anything > else), but no drive. I can't even cobble it to a regular MFM drive, since the > actual disk controller is in the drive cabinet (I have only the host adapter). > Unfortunately, you can't really run Xenix without a hard drive. > > -Ian > IIRC, the 8MB disk unit used a SA 1000 series 8" hard drive, they had a high failure rate :( I know that while I had my 16 and 6000 running I had my 8 meg replaced 4 times under warranty. The last time it blew while still under warranty they replaced the controller and drive unit with a 15 meg 5 1/4" unit. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 30 16:34:35 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 14:34:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101230143403.F32439@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 30 Dec 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > However, I'll bet that if you ask a reasnablu 'techy' PC person 'how many > tracks are there on a 1.44M vfloppy disk' you will not get the answer > '160' (whcih is the technically correct answer).. Most will answer '80'. > I would probably say 'There are 80 cylinders, each of 2 tracks', > particularly if I suspected it was a trick question :-) Would you settle for "80 per side"? From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 30 16:44:02 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 14:44:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP Portable+ disks In-Reply-To: <4D1C75BB.24106.716962@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D1C75BB.24106.716962@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20101230143615.L32439@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 30 Dec 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The fact that someone identified the sample with any accuracy at all > was remarkable. I've had samples given as being from a Hazeltine > computer (the customer not realizing that the terminal was made by > Hazeltine, not the computer itself) or, lately and more common-- > "here's a box of floppies; I don't remember what they came from." > That can be a real adventure, seeing word-processor disks mixed in > with old 400K Mac disks mixed in with various flavors of MS-DOS and > CP/M disks. . . . and also, disks that were used on one system and then reused on a different one. The first side has a different format than the second side, nine sectors per track with 8 used for a different file system than the ninth, or a bogus MS-DOS directory left behind on track 0 and a CP/M directory on track 2. . . . or calling 3.5" diskettes "hard-sector" . . . or calling 40 cylinder DSDD "Quad", and calling 80 cylinder DSDD "SD"! (Superbrain) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 30 16:49:41 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 14:49:41 -0800 Subject: HP Portable+ disks In-Reply-To: <20101230143615.L32439@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4D1C75BB.24106.716962@cclist.sydex.com>, <20101230143615.L32439@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4D1C9C05.19314.106F775@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Dec 2010 at 14:44, Fred Cisin wrote: > . . . and also, disks that were used on one system and then reused on > a different one. The first side has a different format than the > second side, nine sectors per track with 8 used for a different file > system than the ninth, or a bogus MS-DOS directory left behind on > track 0 and a CP/M directory on track 2. > > . . . or calling 3.5" diskettes "hard-sector" > > . . . or calling 40 cylinder DSDD "Quad", and calling 80 cylinder > DSDD "SD"! (Superbrain) Or including ZIP disks in the mix (it's happened to me) as "floppies". Fortunately, I haven't yet gotten any SuperDisks in the mix. --Chuck From innfoclassics at gmail.com Thu Dec 30 18:11:53 2010 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 16:11:53 -0800 Subject: OT: Scrapper question In-Reply-To: <4D1B7061.10862.18EA44E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D1B7061.10862.18EA44E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 5:31 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Does anyone know if tantalum is recovered from electronic waste? > Yes, tantalum has a good scrap value. The last I sold brought over $5 per pound....and tantalum is heavy. That was about 10 years ago when I closed out my business. One of the things I learned was to trim all the tantalum off the boards before going into the scrap bins. Intel was particularly heavy users of Tants. All aluminum had to be stripped from the boards also, and that included aluminum capacitors. We took all the iron and tin off also. We were preping boards to go directly to the refiner we had. Tantalum is magnetic, that is how we sorted the small capacitors. I don't think many circuit cards goes to China any more, 15 year ago, that was true. We also salvaged Beryllium, Mu metal and Alnico. They all brought significant returns. There were times we stripped chipsets and sold the chips, not to mention eproms and processors. Those were interesting times in Portland town. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Dec 30 18:36:42 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 18:36:42 -0600 Subject: Apple/Corvus Whatsit Message-ID: While sorting through my voluminous Apple // hoard today I uncovered this device: http://silent700.blogspot.com/2010/12/what-is-it.html Anyone have any idea what it is? There in only the ribbon cable with 9pin male connector on it and the cutout which has 8 DIP switches and a 3-pin connector. I am somewhat familiar with the Corvus hard drive and networking systems for the Apple // line but I have never seen this. I also uncovered a boxed (board, manual, sw inside) Apple Turnover kit. The floppy is (c) 1985 F. Cisin. Is that our own Fred Cisin on this list? I have at least a couple dozen (so far) mystery Apple // cards in this box....I *know* if I approach the search correctly, one will be a Swyft ;) -- jht From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 30 18:52:26 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 16:52:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple/Corvus Whatsit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101230164258.V32439@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 30 Dec 2010, Jason T wrote: > I also uncovered a boxed (board, manual, sw inside) Apple Turnover > kit. The floppy is (c) 1985 F. Cisin. Is that our own Fred Cisin on > this list? Vertex commissioned one guy to do the hardware, another to write the sector read/write, and I slapped together a program. Eventually, of course, Apple made them rename it to just "Turnover". Depending on the exact version, it handles Apple-OS, Apple Pascal (UCSD), ProDos, and Apple CP/M A relatively low percentage of the boards work right, and it is VERY touchy about which drives it will work with. I recommend setting aside an early Tandom TM100-2 to use with it, or do a serial port transfer instead. -- Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Dec 30 18:56:38 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 18:56:38 -0600 Subject: Apple/Corvus Whatsit In-Reply-To: <20101230164258.V32439@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101230164258.V32439@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 6:52 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Depending on the exact version, it handles Apple-OS, Apple Pascal > (UCSD), ProDos, and Apple CP/M The board is Rev 3. with no S/N on it. The S/W is v 1.22 > touchy about which drives it will work with. ?I recommend setting aside an > early Tandom TM100-2 to use with it, or do a serial port transfer instead. Yeah, I figure it's just a cool relic for the collection at this point. There are ample other ways to read (fewer to write) Apple // media now. -- j From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Dec 30 19:47:18 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 17:47:18 -0800 Subject: Apple/Corvus Whatsit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D1D3626.60403@bitsavers.org> On 12/30/10 4:36 PM, Jason T wrote: > http://silent700.blogspot.com/2010/12/what-is-it.html > > Anyone have any idea what it is? There in only the ribbon cable with > 9pin male connector on it and the cutout which has 8 DIP switches and > a 3-pin connector. I am somewhat familiar with the Corvus hard drive > and networking systems for the Apple // line but I have never seen > this. > It is a Corvus Omninet interface for a Macintosh. I'd be interested in the software, if it should turn up in the pile. From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Dec 30 20:20:18 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 20:20:18 -0600 Subject: Apple/Corvus Whatsit Message-ID: On Dec 30, 2010 7:49 PM, "Al Kossow" wrote: > It is a Corvus Omninet interface for a Macintosh. I'd be interested in the > software, if it should turn up in the pile. Ahhh, it does have that early Mac look to it. What did Omninet use for media? There is no other connector beside the 9-pin. Is it the three little pins? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Dec 30 20:59:03 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 18:59:03 -0800 Subject: Apple/Corvus Whatsit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jason You are aware that we have the SwyftCard manual on the google canon-cat group. We will be moving the file section soon because of some silly new policy of google. Dwight > Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 18:36:42 -0600 > Subject: Apple/Corvus Whatsit > From: silent700 at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > While sorting through my voluminous Apple // hoard today I uncovered > this device: > > http://silent700.blogspot.com/2010/12/what-is-it.html > > Anyone have any idea what it is? There in only the ribbon cable with > 9pin male connector on it and the cutout which has 8 DIP switches and > a 3-pin connector. I am somewhat familiar with the Corvus hard drive > and networking systems for the Apple // line but I have never seen > this. > > I also uncovered a boxed (board, manual, sw inside) Apple Turnover > kit. The floppy is (c) 1985 F. Cisin. Is that our own Fred Cisin on > this list? > > I have at least a couple dozen (so far) mystery Apple // cards in this > box....I *know* if I approach the search correctly, one will be a > Swyft ;) > > -- > jht From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Dec 30 21:03:25 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 19:03:25 -0800 Subject: Apple/Corvus Whatsit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D1D47FD.5050604@bitsavers.org> On 12/30/10 6:20 PM, Jason T wrote: > On Dec 30, 2010 7:49 PM, "Al Kossow" wrote: > >> It is a Corvus Omninet interface for a Macintosh. I'd be interested in the >> software, if it should turn up in the pile. > > Ahhh, it does have that early Mac look to it. What did Omninet use for > media? There is no other connector beside the 9-pin. Is it the three > little pins? > > shielded twisted pair I found the Apple II and Mac Omninet III manuals, and should have them on bitsavers later tonight. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Dec 30 21:09:45 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 19:09:45 -0800 Subject: HP drives In-Reply-To: References: from "dwight elvey" at Dec 29, 10 09:41:13 pm, Message-ID: > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > > > I always considered track and cylinder to mean the same > > for single sided. > > For doule sided=2C Thre would be two tracks per cylinder. > > And I would agree with you... > > However, I'll bet that if you ask a reasnablu 'techy' PC person 'how many > tracks are there on a 1.44M vfloppy disk' you will not get the answer > '160' (whcih is the technically correct answer).. Most will answer '80'. > I would probably say 'There are 80 cylinders, each of 2 tracks', > particularly if I suspected it was a trick question :-) > > -tony Hi The disk steps to 80 tracks but has 160 tracks on the media if double sided.. I think the confusion is that when stepping to a track, it doesn't make any difference to the stepper which side you start or end on. I'd guess that that is how the concept of cylinders got mixed up. The media and the action of the drive are two different things. Dwight From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 30 21:18:20 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 19:18:20 -0800 Subject: HP drives In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4D1CDAFC.15257.1FCEFC7@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Dec 2010 at 19:09, dwight elvey wrote: > The disk steps to 80 tracks but has 160 tracks on > the media if double sided.. > I think the confusion is that when stepping to a track, > it doesn't make any difference to the stepper which > side you start or end on. I'd guess that that is how > the concept of cylinders got mixed up. The media > and the action of the drive are two different things. Does any hard disk literature refer to "cylinders" as "tracks"? Most refer to the geometry as CHS. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Dec 30 21:35:24 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 22:35:24 -0500 Subject: OT: Scrapper question In-Reply-To: References: <4D1B7061.10862.18EA44E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Yes, tantalum has a good scrap value. The last I sold brought over $5 > per pound....and tantalum is heavy. That was about 10 years ago when I > closed out my business. Some years back, tantalum was insane. If you had a 1 pound boule (the pure tantalum, basically), you could take 800 bucks home. Teardrop tantalum capacitors clipped off boards were reaching 20 dollars a pound. Remember the great tantalum capacitor shortage? Anyway, things have normallized, and it is now not really worth clipping them off. There are some *really* good old tantalum caps to clip as well, but I am not telling which ones... > I don't think many circuit cards goes to China any more, 15 year ago, > that was true. The refineries in Germany are getting good business. I think China is still buying the junk circuit boards. -- Will From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Dec 30 22:12:34 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 22:12:34 -0600 Subject: Apple/Corvus Whatsit In-Reply-To: <4D1D47FD.5050604@bitsavers.org> References: <4D1D47FD.5050604@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 9:03 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > shielded twisted pair Ahh, so. Here is a pic of the back of a Corvus Omnidrive. This is the same DIP/pins combo my little box has: http://www.1000bit.it/lista/c/corvus/omninet/Corvus06.JPG -- jht From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Dec 30 22:24:43 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 20:24:43 -0800 Subject: Apple/Corvus Whatsit In-Reply-To: References: <4D1D47FD.5050604@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4D1D5B0B.8010802@bitsavers.org> On 12/30/10 8:12 PM, Jason T wrote: > On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 9:03 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >> shielded twisted pair > > Ahh, so. Here is a pic of the back of a Corvus Omnidrive. This is > the same DIP/pins combo my little box has: > > http://www.1000bit.it/lista/c/corvus/omninet/Corvus06.JPG > > yup.. doc should be up on bitsavers.org/pdf/corvus in a little while also, turned out Steve Hirsch found someone with Mac software a year ago http://apple2.info/downloads?dl_cat=10 FWIW, the PDFs there don't seem to download correctly From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Dec 31 04:35:00 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 02:35:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: seeking LT-1 floppy Message-ID: Is there someone out there with an LT-1 floppy disk or two they'd be willing to sell or trade? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Dec 31 05:12:26 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 03:12:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Discferret questions Message-ID: I'm looking at my aging desktop machine and realize that its replacement probably won't have a native floppy interface, so I started thinking about the super-powered USB-floppy interface previously discussed here. I forgot what it was called, so I stumbled across this page: http://www.deviceside.com/. I quickly figured out what I wanted was the Discferret. Does anyone know anything about this anemic alternative? This led me to some more questions: 1) Can the Discferret handle flippies? 2) Can I daisychain two drives to a single Discferret? 3) How much more work would it be to make a Discferret talk to an 8-inch drive? I'd buy one or two now, but finances aren't that great right now. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Dec 31 07:46:00 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 13:46:00 +0000 Subject: Discferret questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D1DDE98.3010302@philpem.me.uk> CC-d to the DiscFerret mailing list from cctalk to keep this in the archives... On 31/12/10 11:12, David Griffith wrote: > This led me to some more questions: > 1) Can the Discferret handle flippies? Shouldn't be a problem. Just read the disc on one side, flip it and read the other side. > 2) Can I daisychain two drives to a single Discferret? You can go as far as 16 drives with a buffer board and a decoder. Well, at least you can *in theory*. Without the decoder board, using a straight-wired cable, you can chain two partially-decoded (DS0/DS1 jumperable) drives. With enough connectors on the cable and fully-decoded drives (DS0/1/2/3), you can go as far as four drives, though this hasn't been tested. Obviously because some of the lines are shared between drives, only one drive may be active (reading or writing data) at a time, though you can have all the motors spinning if your power supply can handle it. > 3) How much more work would it be to make a Discferret talk to an 8-inch > drive? Minimal. Get a 34-way to 50-way cable (standard 8in disc drive cable) and crimp on a 40-way IDC connector using a bench vice. The first 34 pins of the DiscFerret I/O connector are a standard Shugart interface; the other six add a 5V output and a 5VTTL four-wire High Speed I/O port for expansion. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From trebor77 at execpc.com Fri Dec 31 07:45:27 2010 From: trebor77 at execpc.com (Robert J. Stevens) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 07:45:27 -0600 Subject: Looking for a 26 PIN Female to a 25 PIN DB25 Ribbon Cable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D1DDE77.4040105@execpc.com> Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 11:16:32 -0800 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: Re: Looking for a 26 PIN Female to a 25 PIN DB25 Ribbon Cable >> I am Looking for a 26 PIN Female to a 25 PIN DB25 Ribbon Cable. I am >> going to try to test a HSIO 4 Port Serial Card Meant for a N* Horizon. >> I checked Jameco but they don't have any of the 26 Pin Female Ribbon >> Connectors thats fits over the Dual Row of PINs on the HSIO card TIA >> Bob in Wisconsin >> Jameco P/N 525413 >> (see catalog page >> http://www.jameco.com/Jameco/catalogs/c103/P79.pdf ) >> Is this what you need? >> --Chuck >> Sure looks like it will do the Trick Thanks to Chuck Bob From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Fri Dec 31 08:50:21 2010 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 08:50:21 -0600 Subject: DOS FTP server testing needed Message-ID: <4D1DEDAD.50601@brutman.com> Greetings ... I am still working on my TCP/IP for DOS. It has been over five years now. :-) For the past few days I've been testing an FTP server. The server is running on a PCjr with DOS 3.3, a SCSI Zip 100 for mass storage, and a Western Digital WD8003 Ethernet card. (The Zip is attached using a parallel-to-SCSI adapter and the WD8003 is on an ISA bus adapter.) The FTP server supports most of the standard commands. If you use anonymous FTP you will be limited to a 'sandbox' on the Zip drive that is 30MB in size. You can leave files in the '/incoming' directory - everything else is read only Six people can be connected at a time, but the machine can only transfer data at about 25KB/second so if multiple people start data transfers it will get painful really fast. That's just a limitation of the machine - a faster machine would do a much better job. (A TCP/IP socket with this machine can transfer at data rates up to 100KB/sec. The Zip drive can so sequential reads at around 50KB/sec. So I figure that 25KB/sec isn't that unreasonable.) If you'd like to try out some of your favorite FTP clients I'd appreciate the extra testing. You can get to it at 96.42.228.74 on port 2021. Browser users can use ftp://96.42.228.74:2021/ for a URL. If you are curious as to how the machine is performing or who is on the machine try the 'SITE STATS' or 'SITE WHO' commands. Chuck(G) has already broken it once by using DOS reserved names that I forgot to filter. That bug, and an obscure timing window related to passive data connections have been fixed. If I can keep it running for another day or two with reasonable traffic I'll consider it a success. Thanks! Mike From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Dec 31 10:20:16 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 08:20:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: DOS FTP server testing needed In-Reply-To: <4D1DEDAD.50601@brutman.com> from "Michael B. Brutman" at "Dec 31, 10 08:50:21 am" Message-ID: <201012311620.oBVGKG83019688@floodgap.com> > For the past few days I've been testing an FTP server. You need to get a gopher server up and running. Not only is the protocol ridiculously simple, it completes the retrocomputing circle to use "obsolete" hardware with an "obsolete" protocol. :) I connected to the FTP server and I'm rather impressed with its performance. Maintainer of gopher.floodgap.com (founded as gopher.ptloma.edu in 1999), -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I put the fun in funeral. -------------------------------------------------- From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Fri Dec 31 11:04:57 2010 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 11:04:57 -0600 Subject: DOS FTP server testing needed In-Reply-To: <201012311620.oBVGKG83019688@floodgap.com> References: <201012311620.oBVGKG83019688@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4D1E0D39.5090809@brutman.com> On 12/31/2010 10:20 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> For the past few days I've been testing an FTP server. > > You need to get a gopher server up and running. Not only is the protocol > ridiculously simple, it completes the retrocomputing circle to use > "obsolete" hardware with an "obsolete" protocol. :) > > I connected to the FTP server and I'm rather impressed with its performance. > > Maintainer of gopher.floodgap.com (founded as gopher.ptloma.edu in 1999), Somehow I missed the Gopher phase. I went from FTP and Telnet as an undergrad (1989-1992) straight to a dark basement in IBM, and did not emerge again until 1995 or 1996. By then we were dabbling with HTTP. As for the PCjr, it seems to be happy at the moment. I won't know if I screwed up anything until I read the debug log. I have some warning messages for unusual situations that I look for - if anything else goes wrong I have to try to reconstruct the situation. A big part of the process isn't getting the TCP/IP code correct, but learning how to program in this environment. Buffer space is limited and most events are asynchronous. The programming environment is pretty barren - the lack of threading would probably be the most jarring limitation for a programmer used to current systems. That means keeping a lot of state per connection, constantly polling, and avoiding operations that can block for a long time. Gopher and HTTP will probably be easier now that I have got most of the techniques down. Gopher is possible. HTTP probably is not worth doing. Besides the novelty of it, HTTP isn't practical on hardware like this. FTP client and server is somewhat useful, and I need an FTP server so that I can do online maintenance for a telnet BBS that I'll finish in another 5 years. -Mike From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Dec 31 11:28:35 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 12:28:35 -0500 Subject: Apple/Corvus Whatsit References: Message-ID: <484255DE0AA4407081E652722B21EDFB@vl420mt> --------------Original Message: Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 22:12:34 -0600 From: Jason T Subject: Re: Apple/Corvus Whatsit On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 9:03 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > shielded twisted pair Ahh, so. Here is a pic of the back of a Corvus Omnidrive. This is the same DIP/pins combo my little box has: http://www.1000bit.it/lista/c/corvus/omninet/Corvus06.JPG -- jht --------------Reply: Anybody want the controller board out of an Omnidrive? The case & PS are in use for one of my Cromemco external hard disk drives, but I do also still have the controller card; PS connector, LEDs and the DIP sw were removed, but otherwise it looks complete. mike From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Fri Dec 31 12:16:22 2010 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (Fred Jan Kraan) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 19:16:22 +0100 Subject: TRS-80 Model II/12/16 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D1E1DF6.7020003@xs4all.nl> >> Yeah... I've been steadily working towards getting a working TRS-80 >> Xenix machine. At the moment, I have enough parts (I believe) to make a >> working Model II, and a line on the 68000 board. Unfortunately, the >> difficult part to find is a hard disk. I have the Model II host adapter >> for the early TRS-80 Eight Meg drive (which is, of course, completely >> incompatible with anything else), but no drive. I can't even cobble it >> to a regular MFM drive, since the actual disk controller is in the drive >> cabinet (I have only the host adapter). Unfortunately, you can't really >> run Xenix without a hard drive. > I wonder... > > The Model 1/3/4 hard disk system consisted of a WD1001 controller board, > a disk drive and a very simple host adapter (just an address decoder > really). I would not be suprised if the M2 one was similar in concept. > > Radio Shack were also very good about supplying technical/service manuals > (one reason I liked their machines, yes even back then I knew the value > of a schematic!), so I suspect some information on the M2 hard disk > system exists. > > I wonder how hard itwould be to make up a devie to plug into the host > adapter, appear to have the smae M2-accessible registers, but using some > mode modern storage device. Probsbly a lot easier than replacing an ST412 > hard disk, for example. I have the 8 meg disk system: http://www.xs4all.nl/~fjkraan/comp/trs80m2/8megDisk.html, but still haven't found time and space to properly test it. Replaced some blown capacitors, but that is all sofar. The authorative source for most things TRS-80 is Frank Durda's site: http://nemesis.lonestar.org/computers/tandy/hardware/storage/mfm.html. The original 8 Meg controller emulated the WD1000 chipset even before it was on the market. So it should look like something familiar :-). Fred Jan From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Dec 31 12:52:53 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 11:52:53 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 Model II/12/16 In-Reply-To: <4D1E1DF6.7020003@xs4all.nl> References: <4D1E1DF6.7020003@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4D1E2685.2070902@brouhaha.com> Fred Jan Kraan wrote: > The original 8 Meg controller emulated the WD1000 chipset even > before it was on the market. So it should look like something familiar > :-). The original WD1000 chipset (circa 1980) *was* 8X300-based, and was used in the first WD1000 controller board as sold by WD. The 8X300 didn't "emulate" anything, as it was a new design. The WD1000-series of bipolar MSI support chips did the MFM encode, decode, write precomp, etc., and the 8X300 was the brains of the operation. It wasn't until several years later that WD introduced the WD1010 VLSI controller, which emulated the 8X300-based controller. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 31 12:59:37 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 10:59:37 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model II/12/16 In-Reply-To: <4D1E2685.2070902@brouhaha.com> References: , <4D1E1DF6.7020003@xs4all.nl>, <4D1E2685.2070902@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4D1DB799.10616.362014@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Dec 2010 at 11:52, Eric Smith wrote: > The original WD1000 chipset (circa 1980) *was* 8X300-based, and was > used in the first WD1000 controller board as sold by WD. The 8X300 > didn't "emulate" anything, as it was a new design. The WD1000-series > of bipolar MSI support chips did the MFM encode, decode, write > precomp, etc., and the 8X300 was the brains of the operation. The juxtaposition of "brains" and "8x300" I must confess, is something that I never thought I'd see... --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Dec 31 13:32:09 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 11:32:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: DOS FTP server testing needed In-Reply-To: <4D1E0D39.5090809@brutman.com> from "Michael B. Brutman" at "Dec 31, 10 11:04:57 am" Message-ID: <201012311932.oBVJWAZY012300@floodgap.com> > A big part of the process isn't getting the TCP/IP code correct, but > learning how to program in this environment. Buffer space is limited > and most events are asynchronous. The programming environment is pretty > barren - the lack of threading would probably be the most jarring > limitation for a programmer used to current systems. That means keeping > a lot of state per connection, constantly polling, and avoiding > operations that can block for a long time. Well, that's what I mean. Gopher is about the world's easiest protocol. The client sends you a selector on a single line, you reply with data and the connection closes. No authentication, no state (except for the state of the socket itself), no headers, no wacky encodings. You can doll it up but even dolled-up gopher has all the dolling-up done on the data side responding to custom selectors; the actual command-response model is still just that simple. This is part of the reason I don't like the increased reliance on HTTP because HTTP is being turned into something that it isn't. For example, WebSockets? Really? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- And if I claim to be a wise man/it surely means that I don't know. -- Kansas From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Fri Dec 31 13:56:46 2010 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 13:56:46 -0600 Subject: DOS FTP server testing needed In-Reply-To: <201012311932.oBVJWAZY012300@floodgap.com> References: <201012311932.oBVJWAZY012300@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4D1E357E.7060001@brutman.com> On 12/31/2010 1:32 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Well, that's what I mean. Gopher is about the world's easiest protocol. > The client sends you a selector on a single line, you reply with data and > the connection closes. No authentication, no state (except for the state > of the socket itself), no headers, no wacky encodings. You can doll it up > but even dolled-up gopher has all the dolling-up done on the data side > responding to custom selectors; the actual command-response model is still > just that simple. > > This is part of the reason I don't like the increased reliance on HTTP > because HTTP is being turned into something that it isn't. For example, > WebSockets? Really? I haven't looked much at HTTP, and I know almost nothing about Gopher. (I have some reading to do - I am a U of M grad!) But one thing they both improved on was the data connection. FTP was nuts the way it handles data connections, and active vs. passive has been the source of much confusion over the years. (And the source of some teeth gnashing with this project, and the FTP client that I did.) How are your DOS programming skills? :-) Mike From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Dec 31 14:05:47 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 13:05:47 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 Model II/12/16 In-Reply-To: <4D1DB799.10616.362014@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4D1E1DF6.7020003@xs4all.nl>, <4D1E2685.2070902@brouhaha.com> <4D1DB799.10616.362014@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D1E379B.8050807@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > The juxtaposition of "brains" and "8x300" I must confess, is > something that I never thought I'd see... The design (originally from SMS) was somewhat unconventional compared to other microprocessors of the time, but it made great "brains" for things that needed to be fast. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 31 14:30:45 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 12:30:45 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model II/12/16 In-Reply-To: <4D1E379B.8050807@brouhaha.com> References: , <4D1DB799.10616.362014@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D1E379B.8050807@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4D1DCCF5.18266.89907D@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Dec 2010 at 13:05, Eric Smith wrote: > The design (originally from SMS) was somewhat unconventional compared > to other microprocessors of the time, but it made great "brains" for > things that needed to be fast. Perhaps with some of the support chips, it might get to "idiot" level, but believe me, programming one was an exercise in minimalism. Basically a move architecture, with one conditional and one unconditional jump instruction What's surprising is that the 8x300/305 lasted well into the late 1980s, when other cheaper solutions were available. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 31 13:25:10 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 19:25:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP drives In-Reply-To: <20101230143403.F32439@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Dec 30, 10 02:34:35 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, 30 Dec 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > However, I'll bet that if you ask a reasnablu 'techy' PC person 'how many > > tracks are there on a 1.44M vfloppy disk' you will not get the answer > > '160' (whcih is the technically correct answer).. Most will answer '80'. > > I would probably say 'There are 80 cylinders, each of 2 tracks', > > particularly if I suspected it was a trick question :-) > > Would you settle for "80 per side"? > Of course :-). But you, and many others here, are sufficiently clueful to get it right -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 31 13:33:31 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 19:33:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP Portable+ disks In-Reply-To: <20101230143615.L32439@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Dec 30, 10 02:44:02 pm Message-ID: > . . . and also, disks that were used on one system and then reused on a > different one. The first side has a different format than the second > side, nine sectors per track with 8 used for a different file system than > the ninth, or a bogus MS-DOS directory left behind on track 0 and a CP/M > directory on track 2. Disks that have been used on a double-head drive (or have been factory-formatted for such a drive) which are then reformetted and used on a single-head drive can have some odd remnants on side 1. The other odd one is to have a machine that formats, say, 8 sectors per track, nd use a pre-formatted disk with 9 sectors per track (otheriwse identical format) in it. Most of the time it works fine (the machine will only loo kf or the first 8 sector headers). But if you come to analyse such a disk, you see this odd extra sector that is there for no good reason. > . . . or calling 3.5" diskettes "hard-sector" Sinc ethe index signal in a 35." drive comes from a sensor in the motor (not from any kind of hole in the disk), I believe hard-sectored 3.5" disks are impossible., at least using the normal definiton of 'hard sectored'. Hard sectored 3" disks would be possible (there is an index hole in rthe disk and a normal LED + phototransistor sensor), but AFAIK no such disks were ever made. I don;t know about 3.25", etc. > . . . or calling 40 cylinder DSDD "Quad", and calling 80 cylinder DSDD > "SD"! (Superbrain) ARGH! What about disks with 2 different filesystems on the same side of the same disk? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 31 13:45:09 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 19:45:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP drives In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Dec 30, 10 07:09:45 pm Message-ID: > > However=2C I'll bet that if you ask a reasnablu 'techy' PC person 'how ma= > ny=20 > > tracks are there on a 1.44M vfloppy disk' you will not get the answer=20 > > '160' (whcih is the technically correct answer).. Most will answer '80'.= > =20 > > I would probably say 'There are 80 cylinders=2C each of 2 tracks'=2C=20 > > particularly if I suspected it was a trick question :-) > >=20 > > -tony > > Hi > The disk steps to 80 tracks but has 160 tracks on I would say 'The positioner steps to 80 _cylinders_' > the media if double sided.. > I think the confusion is that when stepping to a track=2C > it doesn't make any difference to the stepper which > side you start or end on. I'd guess that that is how Correct, and that's really what a 'cylinder' means. > the concept of cylinders got mixed up. The media > and the action of the drive are two different things. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 31 14:48:41 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 20:48:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Discferret questions In-Reply-To: <4D1DDE98.3010302@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Dec 31, 10 01:46:00 pm Message-ID: > > 1) Can the Discferret handle flippies? > > Shouldn't be a problem. Just read the disc on one side, flip it and read > the other side. Would it be possible to read a 'flippy' in a dobule-head drive (I asusme the Diskferret has a sid-select output) and then revese the bitstream form side 1 in software brfore trying to analyse it? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 31 15:01:40 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 21:01:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TRS-80 Model II/12/16 In-Reply-To: <4D1DCCF5.18266.89907D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 31, 10 12:30:45 pm Message-ID: > > On 31 Dec 2010 at 13:05, Eric Smith wrote: > > > The design (originally from SMS) was somewhat unconventional compared > > to other microprocessors of the time, but it made great "brains" for > > things that needed to be fast. > > Perhaps with some of the support chips, it might get to "idiot" > level, but believe me, programming one was an exercise in minimalism. > Basically a move architecture, with one conditional and one > unconditional jump instruction >From what Iv;e seen, probamming the 8X305 was rather like writing microcide., A lot of designed (the WD1001 in my 3rd party hard disk for the Model 3/4 is one such) used the 8X305 as a sequencer. The cotnrol store was wider than the the 16 bits used by said processor, and the extra bits were decodded and used to directly control hardware. This made it rather diffenrt to most other microcontrollers -tony From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Dec 31 15:19:43 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 13:19:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: DOS FTP server testing needed In-Reply-To: <4D1E357E.7060001@brutman.com> from "Michael B. Brutman" at "Dec 31, 10 01:56:46 pm" Message-ID: <201012312119.oBVLJhWs005626@floodgap.com> > I haven't looked much at HTTP, and I know almost nothing about Gopher. > (I have some reading to do - I am a U of M grad!) But one thing they > both improved on was the data connection. FTP was nuts the way it > handles data connections, and active vs. passive has been the source of > much confusion over the years. Yes, for simple downloads FTP is big overkill. For Gopher, the relevant RFC is 1436, but there are much simpler examples (see Wikipedia's entry). > How are your DOS programming skills? :-) I have very scant knowledge of x86 assembly (I am much more at home with 6502 and POWER) but I would be delighted to consult at a middle level. :) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Work harder! Millions on welfare depend on you! ---------------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 31 16:40:44 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 22:40:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Happy New Decade Message-ID: Happy new decade to all members of this list and their families. [Yes, I do start counting from 0 normally. But the calendar doesn't :-(, and thus I think that new centrieies, decades, etc start with years ending in '1'.] -tony From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Dec 31 17:15:35 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 23:15:35 +0000 Subject: Discferret questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D1E6417.80706@philpem.me.uk> On 31/12/10 20:48, Tony Duell wrote: > Would it be possible to read a 'flippy' in a dobule-head drive (I asusme > the Diskferret has a sid-select output) and then revese the bitstream > form side 1 in software brfore trying to analyse it? Sure, as long as the drive head was aligned correctly to allow that to work. AIUI some disc formats have the lower head offset by about half a track relative to the upper head. And yes, the DiscFerret does have a side-select output. Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 31 17:17:31 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 15:17:31 -0800 Subject: Discferret questions In-Reply-To: References: <4D1DDE98.3010302@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Dec 31, 10 01:46:00 pm, Message-ID: <4D1DF40B.9021.1224033@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Dec 2010 at 20:48, Tony Duell wrote: > Would it be possible to read a 'flippy' in a dobule-head drive (I > asusme the Diskferret has a sid-select output) and then revese the > bitstream form side 1 in software brfore trying to analyse it? No. The heads in a double-sided drive are offset from each other by a non-integral multiple of inter-track spacing. This is one that used to get asked frequently on the Catweasel forum. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Dec 31 17:37:27 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 15:37:27 -0800 Subject: Happy New Decade In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3531154f7aa15035afa7e0bc9079881a@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Dec 31, at 2:40 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Happy new decade to all members of this list and their families. > > [Yes, I do start counting from 0 normally. But the calendar doesn't > :-(, > and thus I think that new centrieies, decades, etc start with years > ending in '1'.] New year, yes; but (for the other opinion) the decade started last year. The calendar doesn't really denote an absolute time lapse, it just provides labels to points in time. The epoch is arbitrary (who knows what really happened in year 1). As such, the absolute year or decade or century is meaningless. For what it matters at all, it's all about fun and it's more fun to give special celebration to 9's rolling over into 0's, rather than a solitary 1 showing up on the right. Does anyone watch for the car odometer to roll from 10000 to 10001? No, they watch for 9999 to roll into 10000. Is it exciting because it starts or completes 10000 miles or kilometres? No, it's just fun to see all the 9's rolling into 0's. Similarly, for general comprehension it makes more sense to group 2010 with 2011..2019 rather than with 2001..2009; or to associate 2020..2029 together rather than 2011..2020 together, etc. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Dec 31 17:44:10 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 15:44:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Discferret questions In-Reply-To: <4D1E6417.80706@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D1E6417.80706@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 31 Dec 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 31/12/10 20:48, Tony Duell wrote: >> Would it be possible to read a 'flippy' in a dobule-head drive (I asusme >> the Diskferret has a sid-select output) and then revese the bitstream >> form side 1 in software brfore trying to analyse it? > > Sure, as long as the drive head was aligned correctly to allow that to work. > AIUI some disc formats have the lower head offset by about half a track > relative to the upper head. > > And yes, the DiscFerret does have a side-select output. Some more questions that I don't see the answers to on your page: 1) How does the Discferret present itself to the operating system? A mass-storage device? 2) How does the user control the various aspects of the Discferret, like what format to use, side to use, which drive to use, etc? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Fri Dec 31 18:11:54 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 18:11:54 -0600 Subject: Discferret questions In-Reply-To: References: <4D1E6417.80706@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <0F734312-348D-416B-86DA-263805CC9284@bellsouth.net> Isn't there also an issue of recording direction of flippy discs being opposite of expected? Or are disc controllers smart enough to account for this? Seems like this would also affect interleave as well as the per-sector data reversal. Sent from my iPhone On Dec 31, 2010, at 5:44 PM, David Griffith wrote: > On Fri, 31 Dec 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: > >> On 31/12/10 20:48, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Would it be possible to read a 'flippy' in a dobule-head drive (I asusme >>> the Diskferret has a sid-select output) and then revese the bitstream >>> form side 1 in software brfore trying to analyse it? >> >> Sure, as long as the drive head was aligned correctly to allow that to work. AIUI some disc formats have the lower head offset by about half a track relative to the upper head. >> >> And yes, the DiscFerret does have a side-select output. > > Some more questions that I don't see the answers to on your page: > > 1) How does the Discferret present itself to the operating system? A mass-storage device? > > 2) How does the user control the various aspects of the Discferret, like what format to use, side to use, which drive to use, etc? > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Dec 31 18:14:54 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2011 00:14:54 +0000 Subject: [Discferret] Discferret questions In-Reply-To: References: <4D1E6417.80706@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D1E71FE.9080503@philpem.me.uk> On 31/12/10 23:44, David Griffith wrote: > Some more questions that I don't see the answers to on your page: > > 1) How does the Discferret present itself to the operating system? A > mass-storage device? As a USB Vendor Class device. This translates as: A device using a vendor-defined communications protocol not covered by an applicable USB-IF standard. The entire control protocol is open, but not documented yet. I'd argue that unless you've got a really good reason not to, you're better off using the reference API implementation (libdiscferret). > 2) How does the user control the various aspects of the Discferret, like > what format to use, side to use, which drive to use, etc? You use the libdiscferret user-space API. On Linux, this doesn't require any kernel drivers be installed, though you will need LibUSB 1.0 (which is included in almost all recent Linux distributions). On Windows 32- and 64-bit, you need to install a driver called "libusb0" which grants LibUSB access to the device. There's a libusb-1.0 port for Darwin (Mac OS X) too, though I'm not sure about other OSes. Libusb-0.1 has wider cross platform support, though it's classed as "legacy, deprecated" and as such I'm not too keen on the idea of using it. However, I'm still fairly early on in the development of the libdiscferret library, so it could be ported to libusb-0.1 if necessary. The only OSes unsupported by libusb-1.0 are FreeBSD, OpenBSD and NetBSD -- does anyone here need BSD support? Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Dec 31 18:36:20 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2011 00:36:20 +0000 Subject: Discferret questions In-Reply-To: <0F734312-348D-416B-86DA-263805CC9284@bellsouth.net> References: <4D1E6417.80706@philpem.me.uk> <0F734312-348D-416B-86DA-263805CC9284@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <4D1E7704.1000807@philpem.me.uk> On 01/01/11 00:11, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > Isn't there also an issue of recording direction of flippy discs > being opposite of expected? Or are disc controllers smart enough to > account for this? Seems like this would also affect interleave as > well as the per-sector data reversal. Flip the data before writing it... Writes are (generally) synchronised to the index pulse, so they'll end up in the same place, plus or minus a small(ish) margin of error. You're still going to have problems with head misalignment -- double-sided drives have the heads offset slightly relative to each other (i.e. the tracks are offset). Flippies will have the tracks lined up with each other, because they were written by the same head, just on opposite sides of the disc. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 31 19:44:52 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 17:44:52 -0800 Subject: Discferret questions In-Reply-To: <0F734312-348D-416B-86DA-263805CC9284@bellsouth.net> References: , , <0F734312-348D-416B-86DA-263805CC9284@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <4D1E1694.27868.1A92651@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Dec 2010 at 18:11, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > Isn't there also an issue of recording direction of flippy discs being > opposite of expected? Or are disc controllers smart enough to account > for this? Seems like this would also affect interleave as well as the > per-sector data reversal. It doesn't matter. The head offset of the second side on a two-sided drive means that you're not going to be able to read it anyway. This is an old topic that goes back at least 10 years with the Catweasel. Bottom line: it doesn't work for purely physical reasons. --Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Dec 31 21:53:14 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 19:53:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Discferret] Discferret questions In-Reply-To: <4D1E71FE.9080503@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D1E6417.80706@philpem.me.uk> <4D1E71FE.9080503@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Jan 2011, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 31/12/10 23:44, David Griffith wrote: >> Some more questions that I don't see the answers to on your page: >> >> 1) How does the Discferret present itself to the operating system? A >> mass-storage device? > > As a USB Vendor Class device. This translates as: > A device using a vendor-defined communications protocol not covered by an > applicable USB-IF standard. > > The entire control protocol is open, but not documented yet. I'd argue that > unless you've got a really good reason not to, you're better off using the > reference API implementation (libdiscferret). So, as it is now, you cannot directly mount a disk? See below for more ruminations on the subject. >> 2) How does the user control the various aspects of the Discferret, like >> what format to use, side to use, which drive to use, etc? > > You use the libdiscferret user-space API. On Linux, this doesn't require any > kernel drivers be installed, though you will need LibUSB 1.0 (which is > included in almost all recent Linux distributions). On Windows 32- and > 64-bit, you need to install a driver called "libusb0" which grants LibUSB > access to the device. > > There's a libusb-1.0 port for Darwin (Mac OS X) too, though I'm not sure > about other OSes. Libusb-0.1 has wider cross platform support, though it's > classed as "legacy, deprecated" and as such I'm not too keen on the idea of > using it. > > However, I'm still fairly early on in the development of the libdiscferret > library, so it could be ported to libusb-0.1 if necessary. The only OSes > unsupported by libusb-1.0 are FreeBSD, OpenBSD and NetBSD -- does anyone > here need BSD support? *BSD have partial implementations of libusb. I think it would be best if the control software is implemented as a FUSE sitting atop libusb. We could then work around missing portions of libusb on *BSD to get support there. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jws at jwsss.com Wed Dec 29 14:06:34 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 12:06:34 -0800 Subject: TRS 80 available in Kansas city Message-ID: <4D1B94CA.5030302@jwsss.com> I can pick it up, or have it picked up and shipped. Cost is $25 at the Surplus Exchange. You might be able to acquire it over the web, haven't looked. I have asked some friends to see about getting it with an eye to someone here wanting it. Description is "system, printer, monitor and two 5 1/4 floppy drives" Shipping would be extra. From poc at pocnet.net Fri Dec 31 07:02:56 2010 From: poc at pocnet.net (Patrik Schindler) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 14:02:56 +0100 Subject: S: SNA.PS/Mac (Classic) and/or AppleTalk PTF for OS/400 Message-ID: Hello, I recently saved an old AS/400 box from being dumped to learn a bit of the system and OS. Since I'm also a long standing Mac user, I'd like to experiment with sna.ps on old boxes of mine. I have a IIfx with a Apple Token Ring 4.16 board and also the AS/400 has Token Ring up and running. The ring itself works ok for TCP/IP and IPX with some devices attached. I'm searching for the original Apple sna.ps software in any version for getting the two worlds together. Anyone has it? Unfortunately, the code has been sold multiple times to different companies. Copyright is now held by MochaSoft. There has been no response to my inquiry there. So I think thy just don't care for old stuff. I'm also searching for the AppleTalk PTF for OS/400 V4R4M0 to enable the AS/400 speaking AppleTalk natively. Anyone can provide a SAVF of that? IBM doesn't support V4 in no way anymore. Thanks for any hints or help! :wq! PoC