From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri May 1 03:17:45 2009 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Fri, 01 May 2009 01:17:45 -0700 Subject: More broken Apples... In-Reply-To: <49F6D89C.80603@fenz.net> References: <49F5835A.5000800@dunnington.plus.com> <49F58A34.7000702@fenz.net> <49F5F151.2050401@dunnington.plus.com> <49F6D89C.80603@fenz.net> Message-ID: <49FAB029.7000702@socal.rr.com> One of my friends wrote I think the best editor for the Apple II, PIE, Programma Interactive Editor, something like that. Fast and extremely responsive, but a bit of a learning curve for all the keystroke commands. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri May 1 08:37:07 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 10:37:07 -0300 Subject: More Apple II fun - 4116s... References: <178231.49241.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0b3d01c9ca62$7b6ac390$b73c19bb@desktaba> >I don't understand a word of that! Babbelfish is there to be used :D It spits a "macarroni" english but you can understand most of the page :o) >The pictures are great though, and can clearly see what you have done :) There are more on the page, feel free to explore, I do love to repair things ;o) From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri May 1 08:38:15 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 10:38:15 -0300 Subject: More Apple II fun - 4116s... References: Message-ID: <0b3e01c9ca62$7e7655e0$b73c19bb@desktaba> > Are there data sheets online for the 4116 and 4164? www.datasheetarchive.com is your friend :o) From hachti at hachti.de Fri May 1 11:26:41 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Fri, 01 May 2009 18:26:41 +0200 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- System handler? In-Reply-To: <49FA23E5.7010009@softjar.se> References: <49FA23E5.7010009@softjar.se> Message-ID: <49FB22C1.2050609@hachti.de> Hi Johnny, thanks for your reply. > You need to use BUILD to make a new system image, with your device > driver included. I know. But it had no effect. I used the KL8E.PA from the OS/8 V3D sources, dectape 4. It has a switch called "DELAY". But that seems to be a little delay only. For a VT78 (whatever that is). What I want is fill characters. And I want to be able to configure the stuff via the "SET" command. Both are mentioned in the source file, but the source itself doesn't implement it. I assume that the fill character support has already been dropped in my version. Perhaps anyone has an idea where to get older sources? I'm SURE that there once existed a KL8E driver which worked with VT05 out of the box. I don't want to rewrite the driver... > However, you also need to understand many programs do > I/O to the console without going through that device driver, but talks > directly with the console. I know :( > So it might be that there is no easy solution to your problem. If I run in trouble with all that, I will have to go back to 300 baud. The VT05 can do without fill characters up to 300 baud. But that's really not what I intended to use the VT05 for. Appreciate any further hints. Best wishes, Philipp :-) -- http://www.hachti.de From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 1 12:16:25 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 10:16:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More broken Apples... In-Reply-To: <49FAB029.7000702@socal.rr.com> References: <49F5835A.5000800@dunnington.plus.com> <49F58A34.7000702@fenz.net> <49F5F151.2050401@dunnington.plus.com> <49F6D89C.80603@fenz.net> <49FAB029.7000702@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <20090501101252.G2286@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 1 May 2009, Mike Ford wrote: > One of my friends wrote I think the best editor for the Apple II, PIE, > Programma Interactive Editor, something like that. Fast and extremely > responsive, but a bit of a learning curve for all the keystroke commands. Well, I never used the PIE editor, but Wordstar clearly shows the difference between "ease of use" and "ease of learning". IFF you are capable of learning, then it eventually becomes exceptionally easy to use. If not, then there is plentiful software that claims to be "easy to use", but instead is actually only "easy to learn". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From vern4wright at yahoo.com Fri May 1 13:32:28 2009 From: vern4wright at yahoo.com (Vernon Wright) Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 11:32:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: machine room in a trailer? In-Reply-To: <20090430142618.D66174@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <735235.26913.qm@web65513.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 4/30/09, Fred Cisin wrote: > From: Fred Cisin > Subject: Re: machine room in a trailer? > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Thursday, April 30, 2009, 2:27 PM > On Wed, 29 Apr 2009, Vernon Wright wrote: > > Yeah, but I'd want the top trailer (for the view > and other reasons), and > > that's ~35ft AGL. And there isn't anything > above for a skyhook. > > Guess I'm condemned to my ground-floor apt. > > Could you attach a horizontal boom to the top of the > trailer? Somehow that collage looks rather unsubstantial, and I don't think I'd want to trust it. Of course I could sink a 40 ft hole into the ground and use a hydraulic shaft elevator... :) Vern Wright From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 1 13:37:32 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 18:37:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: More Apple II fun - 4116s... In-Reply-To: <0b3d01c9ca62$7b6ac390$b73c19bb@desktaba> Message-ID: <332020.26045.qm@web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Yeah, I did use Babel Fish in the past (just hope Yahoo don't close it like they are with Geocities - going in the next few months incase anyone else here has a site on there and didn't know), but I had forgotten all about it. I am on annual leave until 11th May, so have plenty of time to check out your site :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Fri, 1/5/09, Alexandre Souza wrote: From: Alexandre Souza Subject: Re: More Apple II fun - 4116s... To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Date: Friday, 1 May, 2009, 2:37 PM > I don't understand a word of that! Babbelfish is there to be used :D It spits a "macarroni" english but you can understand most of the page :o) > The pictures are great though, and can clearly see what you have done :) There are more on the page, feel free to explore, I do love to repair things ;o) From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri May 1 14:20:10 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 16:20:10 -0300 Subject: More Apple II fun - 4116s... References: <332020.26045.qm@web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0cb001c9ca92$8999e510$b73c19bb@desktaba> Yeah, I did use Babel Fish in the past (just hope Yahoo don't close it like they are with Geocities - going in the next few onths incase anyone else here has a site on there and didn't know), but I had forgotten all about it. I am on annual leave until 11th May, so have plenty of time to check out your site :) ========== And there are lots of new things to put up on site, unfortunately I'm so out of time. I wanted to do it bilingual, but I cannot find someone to help me. The work of translation the entire site is too cumbersome. Maybe I'll try some day From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 1 14:53:28 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 20:53:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: More broken Apples... In-Reply-To: <20090501101252.G2286@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 1, 9 10:16:25 am Message-ID: > > Well, I never used the PIE editor, but Wordstar clearly shows the > difference between "ease of use" and "ease of learning". IFF you > are capable of learning, then it eventually becomes exceptionally > easy to use. If not, then there is plentiful software that claims > to be "easy to use", but instead is actually only "easy to learn". This applies to a lot of things, not just application programs. IMHO RPN calcualtors are easy to use (although you have to spend a little time learning how to use them), in that once you've learnt how to use one, you don't, for example, have to worry about priority rules, operations are simply done in the order you press them Far too often, things that are 'easy to use' (really meaning 'easy to learn') make simple jobs trivial, but difficult jobs next-to-impossible. Since I don't generally have problems doing simple jobs, you can tell which sort of product I prefer... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 1 14:36:25 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 20:36:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: More Apple II fun - 4116s... In-Reply-To: <49F9BE37.3011.634EDA7D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 30, 9 03:05:27 pm Message-ID: > > Converting the original IBM 5150 planar from 64K using 4116s to 256K > using 4164 was the subject of a number of kits--and magazine > articles. It wasn't difficult. > A word of warning if you want to use all of the 4164 (as opposed to the mods we've been discussing so far that only use 1/4 of it) : Make sure you remove all the decoupling capacitors on what used to be the +5V line in the RAM array, and which becomes the A7 line. Typically there's 0.1uF per chip, and no normal driver is going to drive a 1uF capacitor to ground (i.e. 10 of the decouplers in parallel) without major timing problems. Yes, the is the voice of experience. The Epson QX10 graphics board can be populated with either 4116s or 4164s. There are jumper links to select which ones are fitted,they basically do the pin-swaps we've been talking about. What none of the manuals point out is that if you fit 4164s, you _must_ remove the decoupling capacitors, or you get 'interesting' screen displays. One of my QX10s came to me non-working because the previous owner ad fitted 4164s, had done the link swaps correctly, but left the capacitors in. I spent some time sorting that one out... -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 1 15:28:14 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 13:28:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More broken Apples... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090501132715.M10155@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 1 May 2009, Tony Duell wrote: > Far too often, things that are 'easy to use' (really meaning 'easy to > learn') make simple jobs trivial, but difficult jobs next-to-impossible. > Since I don't generally have problems doing simple jobs, you can tell > which sort of product I prefer... Strangely, I could never get that idea across to Jef Raskin. From lynchaj at yahoo.com Fri May 1 15:49:59 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 16:49:59 -0400 Subject: home brew S-100 backplane project Message-ID: <69F32B8929044DADBFAE0C05B490E649@andrewdesktop> > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew Lynch [mailto:lynchaj at yahoo.com] > Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2009 2:29 PM > To: 'cctalk at classiccmp.org' > Subject: RE: home brew S-100 backplane project > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Andrew Lynch [mailto:lynchaj at yahoo.com] > > Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 10:29 AM > > To: 'cctalk at classiccmp.org' > > Subject: home brew S-100 backplane project > > > > Hi!? I've been working on a home brew S-100 backplane as a side project > [snip] > > Hi! The experimental prototype S-100 backplanes will be available in > about 3 weeks. They will cost $32 each plus shipping which should be $2 > in the US and $5 overseas. All the parts are common and available from > the usual suppliers such as Mouser, Digikey, etc. > > Thanks and have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch [AJL>] Hi! The S-100 backplane PCBs have arrived. Please contact me if interested in getting one. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From hachti at hachti.de Fri May 1 17:15:02 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sat, 02 May 2009 00:15:02 +0200 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? In-Reply-To: <49FA23E5.7010009@softjar.se> References: <49FA23E5.7010009@softjar.se> Message-ID: <49FB7466.1060500@hachti.de> Again..... Looked further on, so I will answer my own message. >> I just try to get a VT05 working with my PDP-8/e. >> Having a tuned KL8E interface at 2400 baud. And I begin to think about switching everything to 300 baud :-( >> I need fill characters.... >> Found a KL8E.PA in the OS/8 V3D sources. It is a two page handler and >> works. Yes, it works with applications using the TTY handler > You need to use BUILD to make a new system image, with your device > driver included. However, you also need to understand many programs do > I/O to the console without going through that device driver, but talks > directly with the console. > So it might be that there is no easy solution to your problem. And the very first of these "bad" programs is the OS/8 keyboard monitor! Yes, the keyboard monitor doesn't use a handler, it just uses TLS to print what it wants to print. This explains why my DIRECT output works fine with the KL8E handler with delay turned on. But I don't get the prompt properly (sometimes). The keyboard monitor implementation looks very straight forward. So there are a few new problems on my way to a working 2400 baud VT05: How to correctly assemble the keyboard monitor? There is at least one undefined symbol in the source code (V3D). When I have the binary - how to put that onto my system device? The software support manual, OS/8 manual and "Introduction to programming" did not really help me. They explain *some* procedures, but only in a step by step way. They tell about building from paper tape using "CODNFIG" tapes (what IS that???) or the build program. They reference paper tapes that contain "several binaries" - but don't explain WHICH binaries. Just that the user has to load all of them... So in the end I did not find out how an OS/8 system is initally built. The BUILD program can do it, I know. But where does it take the keyboard monitor from? The "OS8.BN" binary is not included in the installation - but I can spawn new systems using BUILD. So it must somehow *contain* the OS/8 binary. I could imagine that one has to load several binaries on top of each other to pull together the core image that comes as BUILD.SV. But where can I find the instructions? All in all I cannot understand why I'm getting in such deep trouble while trying to get my VT05 working. It is a VT05 B with the "high speed" option, sold for $$$ by DEC. Their TTY handler also supports the odd ends of the VT05 - but why doesn't the keyboard monitor? Either I am completely wrong or their software really did not fit their hardware. In other places (VR14 display), they have built in the strangest device drivers into their software, just ready to use and plug and play. Why shouldn't they have supported their high speed VT05? It is from 1974, OS/8 V3D is newer than that... Best wishes, currently a bit frustated, Philipp :-) -- http://www.hachti.de From lists at databasics.us Fri May 1 18:37:28 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Fri, 01 May 2009 13:37:28 -1000 Subject: More broken Apples... In-Reply-To: <20090501132715.M10155@shell.lmi.net> References: <20090501132715.M10155@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <49FB87B8.4020505@databasics.us> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 1 May 2009, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Far too often, things that are 'easy to use' (really meaning 'easy to >> learn') make simple jobs trivial, but difficult jobs next-to-impossible. >> Since I don't generally have problems doing simple jobs, you can tell >> which sort of product I prefer... >> > > Strangely, I could never get that idea across to Jef Raskin. I was shocked at how many people believed that the value of a word processing program was inversely proportional to the time it took a brain-damaged chimpanzee (or novice user, whichever is more convenient) to crank out a thank you note for the first time. That was it, end of story. I would always ask questions, and almost always just got a blank stare in reply: Don't you want a program that lets you improve your efficiency? Will you always be a total noob, or do you expect to understand your computer one day? How fast are good typists who use this program? Are there "speed keys" for any of these functions? Warren From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Fri May 1 23:31:22 2009 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Fri, 01 May 2009 23:31:22 -0500 Subject: Looking for IBM PS/2 or PCjr Speech Adapter Tech Ref Message-ID: <49FBCC9A.4010200@brutman.com> The PCjr Speech Adapter sidecar is rumored to be identical to the PS/2 version, at least as far as the BIOS support on the adapter goes. I'd like to play around with mine, but the only programming notes I can find are in BASIC using some assembler hidden in some DATA statements. If I get really desperate I can extract the relevant code from the DATA statements, but I'm hoping somebody has the tech ref. Thanks, Mike From steerex at ccvn.com Fri May 1 11:56:29 2009 From: steerex at ccvn.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 12:56:29 -0400 Subject: FS: HP keyboards Message-ID: <000e01c9ca7d$c6164200$0100a8c0@win2k> Yo, I've got some original HP keyboards that need a new home. The models are as follows: 46011A (qty 2) 46010A C1400A All of them are in excellent cosmetic condition but, the operational condition is unknown. I've had them for many years and they were all working when they were last connected to working system(s). IIRC, they work with HP dumb terminals and are generally not interchangable. You'd have to do some searching to find out if they would work in your situation.. I'd like to get a couple of dollars ($10) each plus shipping if anyone is interested? They are located in western North Carolina. See ya, Steve Robertson steerex [at] ccvn [dot] com From kendricksellen at hotmail.com Fri May 1 14:02:49 2009 From: kendricksellen at hotmail.com (Kendrick Sellen) Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 15:02:49 -0400 Subject: ZN428E chip need pinout Message-ID: and is it available craig From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri May 1 17:45:12 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 18:45:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Xerox 820-II diskette formats Message-ID: All, Thanks to the kindness of Richard Lynch, I now have the 8" drive cabinet to go with my newly-repaired Xerox 820-II. The drive mechanisms were non-functional, unfortunately, so I need to scrounge together something from my junk, err parts collection. I cannot find anything definitive regarding compatibility. I thought these machines could use DSDD drives (one site mentioned Shugart SA851s), but that would be 1.2M of capacity and everything I've found on the web indicates perhaps 1/2 of that. Can anyone tell me what will work with the unit and what low-level format it writes? Steve -- From chris89 at wowway.com Fri May 1 19:02:14 2009 From: chris89 at wowway.com (Chris Couch) Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 20:02:14 -0400 Subject: Found a Apple IIGS UPgrade Message-ID: <641F62347A0749D2AACAB65E1B529D29@ICDDRYWALLPC> HEY, I HAVE AN A2S6001 AND LOOKIN TO SELL IT. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat May 2 02:43:25 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 02 May 2009 00:43:25 -0700 Subject: ZN428E chip need pinout References: Message-ID: <49FBF99D.B94AFC8D@cs.ubc.ca> A selection: http://www.datasheets.org.uk/search.php?t=0&q=ZN428E&manystr= One from the selection: http://www.datasheets.org.uk/pdf/3787021.pdf From rcini at optonline.net Sat May 2 07:49:10 2009 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 02 May 2009 08:49:10 -0400 Subject: Chips that changed the world Message-ID: All: For those interested, IEEE has an article about the 25 chips that changed the world. The NE555 is #1 and the 6502 is #2. http://spectrum.ieee.org/may09/8747 Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From doug at stillhq.com Sat May 2 08:13:09 2009 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Sat, 02 May 2009 23:13:09 +1000 Subject: home brew S-100 backplane project In-Reply-To: <69F32B8929044DADBFAE0C05B490E649@andrewdesktop> References: <69F32B8929044DADBFAE0C05B490E649@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <49FC46E5.4010405@stillhq.com> Hi Andrew, Could you please put me down for one. I am in Australia, so that has to be factored into the postage. thanks Doug Andrew Lynch wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Andrew Lynch [mailto:lynchaj at yahoo.com] >> Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2009 2:29 PM >> To: 'cctalk at classiccmp.org' >> Subject: RE: home brew S-100 backplane project >> >> >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Andrew Lynch [mailto:lynchaj at yahoo.com] >>> Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 10:29 AM >>> To: 'cctalk at classiccmp.org' >>> Subject: home brew S-100 backplane project >>> >>> Hi! I've been working on a home brew S-100 backplane as a side project >>> >> [snip] >> >> Hi! The experimental prototype S-100 backplanes will be available in >> about 3 weeks. They will cost $32 each plus shipping which should be $2 >> in the US and $5 overseas. All the parts are common and available from >> the usual suppliers such as Mouser, Digikey, etc. >> >> Thanks and have a nice day! >> >> Andrew Lynch >> > [AJL>] > > Hi! The S-100 backplane PCBs have arrived. Please contact me if interested > in getting one. Thanks and have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch > > From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat May 2 09:01:19 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 10:01:19 -0400 Subject: home brew S-100 backplane project Message-ID: home brew S-100 backplane project Doug Jackson doug at stillhq.com Hi Andrew, Could you please put me down for one. I am in Australia, so that has to be factored into the postage. thanks Doug -----REPLY----- Hi! Thanks Doug! I will do that. Shipping overseas would be $5 per PCB. Please contact me offlist so we can discuss further. Two of the eight PCBs available for the initial round of testing are already claimed. I will post pictures of the PCBs and my build progress on the wiki. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat May 2 12:01:04 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 17:01:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Chips that changed the world In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <169711.45505.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Thanks for the link, that was a very interesting read. However, isn't there a mistake in the Motorola 68000 description. Doesn't it use 32-bit addressing and not 24-bit? "The hybrid 16-bit/32-bit MC68000 packed in 68 000 transistors, more than double the number of Intel?s 8086. It had internal 32?bit registers, but a 32-bit bus would have made it prohibitively expensive, so the 68000 used 24-bit address and 16-bit data lines. " Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Sat, 2/5/09, Richard A. Cini wrote: From: Richard A. Cini Subject: Chips that changed the world To: "MARCH-Post" , "Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Saturday, 2 May, 2009, 1:49 PM All: For those interested, IEEE has an article about the 25 chips that changed the world. The NE555 is #1 and the 6502 is #2. http://spectrum.ieee.org/may09/8747 Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 2 12:36:05 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 18:36:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: Chips that changed the world In-Reply-To: <169711.45505.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> from "Andrew Burton" at May 2, 9 05:01:04 pm Message-ID: > > > Thanks for the link, that was a very interesting read. > However, isn't there a mistake in the Motorola 68000 description. Doesn't i= > t use 32-bit addressing and not 24-bit? The addres _registers_ were 32 bits wide, but only 24 address lines were brought off-chip. There are actually 23 address pins (A1...A23), becuase A0 is determined from the states of UDS/ and LDS/ -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 2 12:45:34 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 18:45:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: head transformer for Sony disk drive Message-ID: This is a very long shot (but it's on topic), so here goes. I have some of those Sony full-height single-sided (single head) 600rpm 3.5" floppy drives -- the ones that are used in the HP9121, HP9133V, early Apricot PCs, etc. Now, on the main board of these drives is a little ferrite-cored transformer. This is the only drive I've ever worked on that doesn't have a centre-tapped read-write head, and this transformer frovides a balanced signal into the read amplifier chain. It's surrounded by transistors that are involved in the read/write switching (this is not done with diodes as is conventional). Unfortunately, I've mechanically damaged (read 'ripped it off the PCB') this trnasformer in one drive of one of my HP9121s (long story...). So I need to do somehtign about it. I can't find a 'spare' single-head drive in my junk box, and I can't get a double-head one to work in the 9121 (this may be because the double-head drive I found has a fault, I've not seriously tested it). I can't use parts of the double head drive to repair the single-head one, the double head drive is conventional with a centre-tapped head, diode switching and no transformer. So what I am looking for is : A new transformer (no chance!). A working or defective-somwehre-else logic PCB (it's labelled 'FC-6' in the silk-screen). No I am not going to try to desolder the transformer from it (the thing is _very_ fragile), but I could, say, take the microcontroller off my existing PCB if necessary Such a floppy drive with a fault other than in the transformer. Winding details (yes, I am prepared to have go at making one...) And while I'm on the subject, did anyone ever do serious repairs to such drives and have the special tools (compliance-testing weight, alighment pinion driver, etc). I have a load of quesitons on those... -tony From dgahling at hotmail.com Sat May 2 14:17:40 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 15:17:40 -0400 Subject: Chips that changed the world In-Reply-To: References: <169711.45505.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> from "Andrew Burton" at May 2, 9 05:01:04 pm Message-ID: Why isn't the DEC Alpha (or any DEC chips) listed? _________________________________________________________________ Create a cool, new character for your Windows Live? Messenger. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9656621 From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat May 2 14:33:42 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 19:33:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: free/pick-up: Origin 2000 sgi 2400, Tilburg, The Netherlands In-Reply-To: <643f3c5318c07e9dad5ac74bf49ab14e@webmail.apm-internet.net> Message-ID: <759935.86053.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Thanks for the link. The video was cool even Sonic got in on the act! :) Just wondered where the music came from. From 3:40 onwards it's a remix of the Bond theme, and I'm a bond fan :) Was it a custom-made tune? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Thu, 30/4/09, HavNet wrote: > From: HavNet > Subject: Re: free/pick-up: Origin 2000 sgi 2400, Tilburg, The Netherlands > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Thursday, 30 April, 2009, 12:05 AM > Ahh but Jules, > We know something you dont know !! ... ner ner ... > > Watch this space for some good news regarding the museum > (apart from addition of an SGI Origin 2000 obviously) > > We had a great time and the Gadget Show Live a few weeks > ago > See : > http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/news/4058/Gadget-Show-Live-2009-Awesome/ > which has helped gain us some much needed support ... > > Anyway, does anyone know where I can get signed drivers for > Windows Vista that > support the Origin 2000? > > :-) > Jason > Curator & Chief Geek > The Centre for Computing History > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com > Sent: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:42:05 -0500 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: free/pick-up: Origin 2000 sgi 2400, Tilburg, > The Netherlands > > Joost van de Griek wrote: > > On Apr 29, 2009, at 20:29, Joost van Baal wrote: > > > >> The machine will be rescued by the Centre for > Computing History > >> (www.computinghistory.org.uk) near Cambridge, UK. > (It might even get > >> hooked up > >> on the internet, within a couple of months.) > Thanks locutus for help in > >> mediating. See http://abramowitz.uvt.nl/sgi.txt > for latest status. > > Knowing that museum, I'm wondering where they're > going to put it ;-) (I also > believe it'll be well looked after, which is good news) > > cheers > > Jules From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat May 2 14:38:56 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 02 May 2009 12:38:56 -0700 Subject: Chips that changed the world References: Message-ID: <49FCA151.2C1E843A@cs.ubc.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > > Andrew Burton wrote: > > Thanks for the link, that was a very interesting read. > > However, isn't there a mistake in the Motorola 68000 description. Doesn't i= > > t use 32-bit addressing and not 24-bit? > > The addres _registers_ were 32 bits wide, but only 24 address lines were > brought off-chip. There are actually 23 address pins (A1...A23), becuase > A0 is determined from the states of UDS/ and LDS/ Keeping in mind as well, that at the the time of the 68000 release ca. '79/80, 16MB=2^24 was a lot of memory. Going beyond 16-bit physical addressing was warranted in terms of market/economics, the same could not be said for 32-bit physical addressing for a microprocessor system. 24 bits was a practical goldilocks solution. The 32-bit initial architecture provided for future upgrade/compatibility, and was addressed (pun) in later versions. (Didn't the IBM 360 architecture vs. implementation take the same upgrade path?) From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat May 2 14:44:55 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 19:44:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Chips that changed the world In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <22412.68114.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Ahhh, I see. Thanks for clearing that up. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Sat, 2/5/09, Tony Duell wrote: > From: Tony Duell > Subject: Re: Chips that changed the world > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Saturday, 2 May, 2009, 6:36 PM > > > > > > Thanks for the link, that was a very interesting read. > > However, isn't there a mistake in the Motorola > 68000 description. Doesn't i= > > t use 32-bit addressing and not 24-bit? > > The addres _registers_ were 32 bits wide, but only 24 > address lines were > brought off-chip. There are actually 23 address pins > (A1...A23), becuase > A0 is determined from the states of UDS/ and LDS/ > > -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat May 2 15:27:58 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 16:27:58 -0400 Subject: Chips that changed the world In-Reply-To: References: <169711.45505.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> from "Andrew Burton" at May 2, 9 05:01:04 pm Message-ID: <5D566FF0-3C5A-430D-97A6-01F3F2718D5D@neurotica.com> On May 2, 2009, at 3:17 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > Why isn't the DEC Alpha (or any DEC chips) listed? Good question. I love mentioning Alphas whenever anyone suggests that 64-bit processors are "a new thing". -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Sat May 2 15:50:16 2009 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 16:50:16 -0400 Subject: Chips that changed the world In-Reply-To: <49FCA151.2C1E843A@cs.ubc.ca> References: <49FCA151.2C1E843A@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4affc5e0905021350x29e5acfbx3338847a64cd28cd@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 15:38, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > Keeping in mind as well, that at the the time of the 68000 release ca. '79/80, > 16MB=2^24 was a lot of memory. Going beyond 16-bit physical addressing was > warranted in terms of market/economics, the same could not be said for 32-bit > physical addressing for a microprocessor system. 24 bits was a practical > goldilocks solution. > > The 32-bit initial architecture provided for future upgrade/compatibility, and > was addressed (pun) in later versions. Then of course there were those programmers that thought they were clever, using the top 8 bits to store flags in pointers, etc. Royally messed up when upgrading to 68020 and up. Somehow this seemed only a problem on Macs - the "dirty" ROMs issue on the SE30 and some others. I don't recall the Amiga ever having those issues, and I have no clue about the Atari... Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat May 2 16:31:18 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 02 May 2009 22:31:18 +0100 Subject: head transformer for Sony disk drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49FCBBA6.8020309@dunnington.plus.com> On 02/05/2009 18:45, Tony Duell wrote: > I have some of those Sony full-height single-sided (single head) 600rpm > 3.5" floppy drives -- the ones that are used in the HP9121, HP9133V, > early Apricot PCs, etc. > And while I'm on the subject, did anyone ever do serious repairs to such > drives and have the special tools (compliance-testing weight, alighment > pinion driver, etc). I have a load of quesitons on those... I don't have a spare drive, nor any of the tools, unfortunately. I do have the Sony service manual, though. It's part of the Apricot Service Manual set. Would it help to borrow it, or do you already have a copy? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat May 2 16:36:53 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 18:36:53 -0300 Subject: ZN428E chip need pinout References: Message-ID: <154601c9cb70$1da7ed50$b73c19bb@desktaba> >and is it available VERY hard to find. I have one stored here for years. Try www.datasheetarchive.com for a datasheet From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat May 2 18:15:03 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 02 May 2009 18:15:03 -0500 Subject: Chips that changed the world In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0905021350x29e5acfbx3338847a64cd28cd@mail.gmail.com> References: <49FCA151.2C1E843A@cs.ubc.ca> <4affc5e0905021350x29e5acfbx3338847a64cd28cd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49FCD3F7.2090401@gmail.com> Joachim Thiemann wrote: > Then of course there were those programmers that thought they were > clever, using the top 8 bits to store flags in pointers, etc. Royally > messed up when upgrading to 68020 and up. Hmm, I think something similar happened with ARM CPUs... From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat May 2 18:35:42 2009 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 18:35:42 -0500 Subject: Chips that changed the world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: They forgot to include our chip, the MAX232! Randy > Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 08:49:10 -0400 > From: rcini at optonline.net > Subject: Chips that changed the world > To: midatlanticretro at yahoogroups.com; cctalk at classiccmp.org > > All: > > For those interested, IEEE has an article about the 25 chips that > changed the world. The NE555 is #1 and the 6502 is #2. > > http://spectrum.ieee.org/may09/8747 > > > Rich > > -- > Rich Cini > Collector of Classic Computers > Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > http://www.altair32.com > http://www.classiccmp.org/cini > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail? goes with you. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Mobile1_052009 From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Sat May 2 19:46:54 2009 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 02 May 2009 20:46:54 -0400 Subject: Bitsavers size in historical storage units Message-ID: <20090503004654.A74EBBA5166@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> I just noticed that the total size of the Bitsavers archive seems to have surpassed 100 Gigabytes in the past few days. In historical storage units, that is 160000 miles, nearly one light second, of paper tape. That is 1.25 Billion punched cards. At about 143 cards to the inch, those punced cards would make a stack 137 miles high. Production of that many cards would require three major deciduous forests, which by my exchange table is also the same as one ship's peanut. That is 40000 RK05 carts. At about 10 pounds per cart, that's almost half a million pounds of RK05's. Great job, Al! Tim. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat May 2 23:02:49 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 00:02:49 -0400 Subject: Chips that changed the world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9D2BCEB0-2137-4E69-89FA-67DF561F96FD@neurotica.com> On May 2, 2009, at 7:35 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: > They forgot to include our chip, the MAX232! The MAX232 certainly did make things a whole lot easier, I'll give you that! -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat May 2 23:36:30 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 21:36:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More P112 boards coming Message-ID: Enough people are asking about the P112 that I think I can justify taking preorders. I don't know exactly how much it'll cost for this run, but I'm fairly sure it'll be decently similar to how it was last time, which was US$165. I'll have the parts costs calculated out in a couple days. Then I'll know how many preorders will be needed to get things rolling. Stand by for more info. I anticipate three visible changes in the kit. 1) Depending on how many 32k chips I have left, I may go ahead and make 1M modules of the sort that Terry made up a while ago. 512k chips in DIP packages is very expensive, but for SMT packages, it's very cheap. The 1M module is nothing more than a daughterboard that plugs into the P112 and behaves exactly like a pair of DIPs. 2) Add two holes near the RTC crystal. I think it would be cleaner to use a loop of wire to hold the crystal down instead of a blob of epoxy. 3) Change the battery holder to something more compatible with add-on boards. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat May 2 15:37:15 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 16:37:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Xerox 820-II diskette formats In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 2 May 2009, Richard Lynch wrote: >> Thanks to the kindness of Richard Lynch, I now have the 8" drive cabinet >> to go with my newly-repaired Xerox 820-II. The drive mechanisms were >> non-functional, unfortunately, so I need to scrounge together something >> from my junk, err parts collection. >> >> I cannot find anything definitive regarding compatibility. I thought >> these machines could use DSDD drives (one site mentioned Shugart SA851s), >> but that would be 1.2M of capacity and everything I've found on the web >> indicates perhaps 1/2 of that. >> >> Can anyone tell me what will work with the unit and what low-level format >> it writes? > Both of the non-functional drives that were removed from the cabinet were > 851s, and a large percentage of the 820-II floppies that I'm in the process > of archiving are DSDD. Interesting. So the maximum capacity was approx. 1.2MB on those diskettes? I found an SA851 in my collection that I believe works and am working on getting another. One thing I should have asked: Can you tell me the jumper settings on the units you pulled? Steve -- From richardlynch3 at tx.rr.com Sat May 2 06:22:29 2009 From: richardlynch3 at tx.rr.com (Richard Lynch) Date: Sat, 02 May 2009 06:22:29 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820-II diskette formats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 5/1/09 5:45 PM, "Steven Hirsch" wrote: > All, > > Thanks to the kindness of Richard Lynch, I now have the 8" drive cabinet > to go with my newly-repaired Xerox 820-II. The drive mechanisms were > non-functional, unfortunately, so I need to scrounge together something > from my junk, err parts collection. > > I cannot find anything definitive regarding compatibility. I thought > these machines could use DSDD drives (one site mentioned Shugart SA851s), > but that would be 1.2M of capacity and everything I've found on the web > indicates perhaps 1/2 of that. > > Can anyone tell me what will work with the unit and what low-level format > it writes? > > Steve > Both of the non-functional drives that were removed from the cabinet were 851s, and a large percentage of the 820-II floppies that I'm in the process of archiving are DSDD. Richard From bqt at softjar.se Sat May 2 13:05:39 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 02 May 2009 20:05:39 +0200 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49FC8B73.4060605@softjar.se> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: Hi. As a first general comment, I should point out that is was years since I played with this, so all I write is from hazy memories. I could check it all out, but that would take some time, so I'll just write away for now, and hopefully this will be enough to set you on the right path yourself. :-) >>> I just try to get a VT05 working with my PDP-8/e. >>> Having a tuned KL8E interface at 2400 baud. > And I begin to think about switching everything to 300 baud :-( In a way, that is your only option, yes. Sad as it might seem. >>> I need fill characters.... >>> Found a KL8E.PA in the OS/8 V3D sources. It is a two page handler and >>> works. > Yes, it works with applications using the TTY handler It works with applications that don't do explicit termimal I/O, but instead do file I/O and the output (or input) is actually the terminal. That's the only situation where the terminal driver is involved. The terminal driver is really not adapted to use as a general terminal I/O handler, but only to use as one output/input alternative when you do file I/O. So it will never be, or do, what you want in this situation. >> You need to use BUILD to make a new system image, with your device >> driver included. However, you also need to understand many programs do >> I/O to the console without going through that device driver, but talks >> directly with the console. >> So it might be that there is no easy solution to your problem. > And the very first of these "bad" programs is the OS/8 keyboard monitor! That's just the beginning of it, however... > Yes, the keyboard monitor doesn't use a handler, it just uses TLS to print what it wants to print. > This explains why my DIRECT output works fine with the KL8E handler with delay turned on. But I > don't get the prompt properly (sometimes). The keyboard monitor implementation looks very straight > forward. > So there are a few new problems on my way to a working 2400 baud VT05: > > How to correctly assemble the keyboard monitor? There is at least one undefined symbol in the source > code (V3D). Can't make any comments on that. I think I have all the sources somewhere, and they are also probably on the internet, but I have never tried building the whole system from scratch. > When I have the binary - how to put that onto my system device? That's another story. I can't remember for sure, but I think you can do this with build. > The software support manual, OS/8 manual and "Introduction to programming" did not really help me. > They explain *some* procedures, but only in a step by step way. They tell about building from paper > tape using "CODNFIG" tapes (what IS that???) or the build program. They reference paper tapes that > contain "several binaries" - but don't explain WHICH binaries. Just that the user has to load all of > them... So in the end I did not find out how an OS/8 system is initally built. In your case, you probably want to use BUILD. > The BUILD program can do it, I know. But where does it take the keyboard monitor from? The "OS8.BN" > binary is not included in the installation - but I can spawn new systems using BUILD. So it must > somehow *contain* the OS/8 binary. > I could imagine that one has to load several binaries on top of each other to pull together the core > image that comes as BUILD.SV. But where can I find the instructions? All the relevant bits and pieces are in the OS/8 handbook. But in short, build can take a current system image and use as a base for the new one if I remember correctly. So it don't contain the OS/8 binary itself. That would be pretty dumb, by the way. It would make upgrading difficult, since you'd have to match BUILD.SV to whatever OS image you were using. BUILD can also replace device drivers in your system. That is fixed blocks on the system disk, I think. > All in all I cannot understand why I'm getting in such deep trouble while trying to get my VT05 > working. It is a VT05 B with the "high speed" option, sold for $$$ by DEC. > Their TTY handler also supports the odd ends of the VT05 - but why doesn't the keyboard monitor? > Either I am completely wrong or their software really did not fit their hardware. > In other places (VR14 display), they have built in the strangest device drivers into their software, > just ready to use and plug and play. Why shouldn't they have supported their high speed VT05? It is > from 1974, OS/8 V3D is newer than that... To make a long story short. The PDP-8 wasn't exactly a top of the line product by the time the VT05 came out. OS/8 was written before this, and it is those limitations that you are hitting. V3D wasn't exactly a redesign of the system. Just some fixes. The problem you are looking at goes straight to the core of the system design. There is nothing you could do about that short of totally rewriting the whole system. And then it wouldn't be OS/8 any more. In short, all programs that do terminal I/O specifically in OS/8 do it themself. No device driver is ever involved. And all programs knows this. So there is no way you can change that paradigm. All programs would still do it that way, even if you did redesign the monitor. There is possibly one path to relief, however. Unless my memory fails me, the KL8-JA (and maybe the KL8-E as well) have a jumper to insert 4 (I think it was) fillers after a LF. This is a hardware fix for your problem, and is what DEC did. In short, there is no software solution to the problem within OS/8. But there is a hardware solution (unless my memory fails me). > Best wishes, currently a bit frustated, > > Philipp :-) :-) Funny that noone else around seems to be able to answer. I thought there were atleast some people with experience from older systems around. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From quapla at xs4all.nl Sun May 3 05:24:05 2009 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 12:24:05 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Bitsavers size in historical storage units Message-ID: <12521.62.140.137.29.1241346245.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > I just noticed that the total size of the Bitsavers archive seems > to have surpassed 100 Gigabytes in the past few days. > > In historical storage units, that is 160000 miles, nearly one light > second, of paper tape. Hmm, how big/high would the pile of chad be? > > That is 1.25 Billion punched cards. At about 143 cards to the inch, > those punced cards would make a stack 137 miles high. Production of that > many cards would require three major deciduous forests, which by my > exchange > table is also the same as one ship's peanut. > > That is 40000 RK05 carts. At about 10 pounds per cart, that's almost half > a million pounds of RK05's. > > Great job, Al! > > Tim. > -- Certified : VCP 3.x, SCSI 3.x SCSA S10, SCNA S10 From rick at rickmurphy.net Sun May 3 06:14:34 2009 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 12:14:34 +0100 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? In-Reply-To: <49FC8B73.4060605@softjar.se> References: <49FC8B73.4060605@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4677D708-2BEB-46D5-96B7-475A3C3D2439@rickmurphy.net> On May 2, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > > Hi. As a first general comment, I should point out that is was years > since I played with this, so all I write is from hazy memories. I > could check it all out, but that would take some time, so I'll just > write away for now, and hopefully this will be enough to set you on > the right path yourself. :-) > >>>> I just try to get a VT05 working with my PDP-8/e. >>>> Having a tuned KL8E interface at 2400 baud. >> And I begin to think about switching everything to 300 baud :-( > > In a way, that is your only option, yes. Sad as it might seem. > >>>> I need fill characters.... >>>> Found a KL8E.PA in the OS/8 V3D sources. It is a two page handler >>>> and works. >> Yes, it works with applications using the TTY handler > > It works with applications that don't do explicit termimal I/O, but > instead do file I/O and the output (or input) is actually the > terminal. That's the only situation where the terminal driver is > involved. The terminal driver is really not adapted to use as a > general terminal I/O handler, but only to use as one output/input > alternative when you do file I/O. > So it will never be, or do, what you want in this situation. > >>> You need to use BUILD to make a new system image, with your device >>> driver included. However, you also need to understand many >>> programs do I/O to the console without going through that device >>> driver, but talks directly with the console. >>> So it might be that there is no easy solution to your problem. >> And the very first of these "bad" programs is the OS/8 keyboard >> monitor! > > That's just the beginning of it, however... That's the real problem- first you fix the KBM then you'll need to fix the command processor. Then Basic, etc. > >> Yes, the keyboard monitor doesn't use a handler, it just uses TLS >> to print what it wants to print. >> This explains why my DIRECT output works fine with the KL8E handler >> with delay turned on. But I don't get the prompt properly >> (sometimes). The keyboard monitor implementation looks very >> straight forward. >> So there are a few new problems on my way to a working 2400 baud >> VT05: >> How to correctly assemble the keyboard monitor? There is at least >> one undefined symbol in the source code (V3D). > > Can't make any comments on that. I think I have all the sources > somewhere, and they are also probably on the internet, but I have > never tried building the whole system from scratch. > >> When I have the binary - how to put that onto my system device? > > That's another story. I can't remember for sure, but I think you can > do this with build. Yes, using the OS/8 Software Support manual for help. It's not easy. (Starting with getting good source, then humming enough room to add your changes.) > >> The software support manual, OS/8 manual and "Introduction to >> programming" did not really help me. They explain *some* >> procedures, but only in a step by step way. They tell about >> building from paper tape using "CODNFIG" tapes (what IS that???) or >> the build program. They reference paper tapes that contain "several >> binaries" - but don't explain WHICH binaries. Just that the user >> has to load all of them... So in the end I did not find out how an >> OS/8 system is initally built. > > In your case, you probably want to use BUILD. > >> The BUILD program can do it, I know. But where does it take the >> keyboard monitor from? The "OS8.BN" binary is not included in the >> installation - but I can spawn new systems using BUILD. So it must >> somehow *contain* the OS/8 binary. >> I could imagine that one has to load several binaries on top of >> each other to pull together the core image that comes as BUILD.SV. >> But where can I find the instructions? > > All the relevant bits and pieces are in the OS/8 handbook. But in > short, build can take a current system image and use as a base for > the new one if I remember correctly. So it don't contain the OS/8 > binary itself. That would be pretty dumb, by the way. It would make > upgrading difficult, since you'd have to match BUILD.SV to whatever > OS image you were using. > BUILD can also replace device drivers in your system. That is fixed > blocks on the system disk, I think. > >> All in all I cannot understand why I'm getting in such deep trouble >> while trying to get my VT05 working. It is a VT05 B with the "high >> speed" option, sold for $$$ by DEC. >> Their TTY handler also supports the odd ends of the VT05 - but why >> doesn't the keyboard monitor? >> Either I am completely wrong or their software really did not fit >> their hardware. >> In other places (VR14 display), they have built in the strangest >> device drivers into their software, just ready to use and plug and >> play. Why shouldn't they have supported their high speed VT05? It >> is from 1974, OS/8 V3D is newer than that... > > To make a long story short. The PDP-8 wasn't exactly a top of the > line product by the time the VT05 came out. OS/8 was written before > this, and it is those limitations that you are hitting. V3D wasn't > exactly a redesign of the system. Just some fixes. The problem you > are looking at goes straight to the core of the system design. There > is nothing you could do about that short of totally rewriting the > whole system. And then it wouldn't be OS/8 any more. > > In short, all programs that do terminal I/O specifically in OS/8 do > it themself. No device driver is ever involved. And all programs > knows this. So there is no way you can change that paradigm. All > programs would still do it that way, even if you did redesign the > monitor. > > There is possibly one path to relief, however. Unless my memory > fails me, the KL8-JA (and maybe the KL8-E as well) have a jumper to > insert 4 (I think it was) fillers after a LF. This is a hardware fix > for your problem, and is what DEC did. > In short, there is no software solution to the problem within OS/8. > But there is a hardware solution (unless my memory fails me). > I think you're right. Another suggestion that comes to mind is a simple PIC based widget that front ends tv VT05, inserting nulls as needed. >> Best wishes, currently a bit frustated, >> Philipp :-) > > :-) > Funny that noone else around seems to be able to answer. I thought > there were atleast some people with experience from older systems > around. :-) I would have replied earlier, but this iPod doesn't make entering long replies convenient. -Rick From ray at arachelian.com Sun May 3 08:19:37 2009 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sun, 03 May 2009 09:19:37 -0400 Subject: Chips that changed the world In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0905021350x29e5acfbx3338847a64cd28cd@mail.gmail.com> References: <49FCA151.2C1E843A@cs.ubc.ca> <4affc5e0905021350x29e5acfbx3338847a64cd28cd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49FD99E9.3000607@arachelian.com> Joachim Thiemann wrote: > Then of course there were those programmers that thought they were > clever, using the top 8 bits to store flags in pointers, etc. Royally > messed up when upgrading to 68020 and up. > > Somehow this seemed only a problem on Macs - the "dirty" ROMs issue on > the SE30 and some others. I don't recall the Amiga ever having those > issues, and I have no clue about the Atari... > When you have a machine that only has 128K of RAM, every byte counts. I wouldn't say that this was necessarily a bad idea given the situation. Keep in mind that there are things such as deadlines to consider, so quick and dirty tricks like those, look nasty in hindsight, and certainly take a lot of time to clean up afterwards, but they do get the job done for the moment. How many programming teams consider the long run versus "just get it out the door"? Or I should say, how many programmer's managers consider the long run? :-) Individuals almost always care about their work and want to do a job that will last, despite deadlines or pressure to cut corners. But managerial pressure to do the wrong thing usually prevails. The other great example of this is how enough address lines were snuck into the original Mac to allow it to be expanded despite direct orders to not allow expansion at all. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun May 3 09:08:02 2009 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 03 May 2009 09:08:02 -0500 Subject: MC3418 CVSD Encoding (Was: Re: Looking for IBM PS/2 or PCjr Speech Adapter Tech Ref In-Reply-To: <49FBCC9A.4010200@brutman.com> References: <49FBCC9A.4010200@brutman.com> Message-ID: <49FDA542.1060803@brutman.com> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > The PCjr Speech Adapter sidecar is rumored to be identical to the PS/2 > version, at least as far as the BIOS support on the adapter goes. > Ok - it looks like nobody has ready access to a tech ref for the PCjr version or the PS/2 version of the speech adapter. I am sure its buried in a nice binder with a slipcover somewhere but I don't have the PS/2 set - I only have the PC family set of docs and they didn't make one of these for the PC or XT. The part of the adapter I'm interested in is driven by a MC3418. This chip does CVSD encoding and decoding of waveforms. I understand the principle behind CVSD encoding and decoding, but not enough to start writing code. I want to write some code takes CVSD encoded data and displays the waveform on a screen, for a sound editor. Does anybody have any experience reading MC3418 encoded data? Thanks, Mike From ray at arachelian.com Sun May 3 09:25:51 2009 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sun, 03 May 2009 10:25:51 -0400 Subject: More broken Apples... In-Reply-To: <20090501132715.M10155@shell.lmi.net> References: <20090501132715.M10155@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <49FDA96F.1010203@arachelian.com> I'm replying to two messages at once here. :-) Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 1 May 2009, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Far too often, things that are 'easy to use' (really meaning 'easy to >> learn') make simple jobs trivial, but difficult jobs next-to-impossible. >> Since I don't generally have problems doing simple jobs, you can tell >> which sort of product I prefer... >> > > Strangely, I could never get that idea across to Jef Raskin. > Warren Wolfe wrote: > I was shocked at how many people believed that the value of a word > processing program was inversely proportional to the time it took a > brain-damaged chimpanzee (or novice user, whichever is more > convenient) to crank out a thank you note for the first time. That > was it, end of story. I would always ask questions, and almost always > just got a blank stare in reply: > > Don't you want a program that lets you improve your efficiency? > Will you always be a total noob, or do you expect to understand your > computer one day? > How fast are good typists who use this program? > Are there "speed keys" for any of these functions? If you're talking about the original Mac, this is true. But keep in mind that Jef was off the Mac project before it changed directions. Jef's design for the Mac would have made it another text oriented system with an 8 bit, or 16 bit CPU. While it's true that Jef convinced Steve Jobs to go to Xerox PARC, the original designs for both the Mac and the Lisa (which Jef wasn't working on) did not include the GUI. Steve got kicked out of the Lisa team and he took over Jef's team, pushing Jef out - that's how the Mac became the Mac. See folklore.org for those bits of history. The apps that shipped with the original Mac weren't meant to be high end power user apps. They were something to work with until profession apps hit the market. For most users they got the job done. Otherwise, Apple wouldn't have tried to get Lotus and Microsoft to port their wares to the Mac, and supposing that the original Mac wasn't the one released in 1984, but instead the Mac SE or the Mac Plus was, if Apple had built fully functional replacements for Microsoft Word and Lotus 123, then that would have slowed down the software market for the Mac as it would have pissed off the big software houses. That would have limited the original Mac far more. Whenever you have a new machine to market, your biggest problem is the lack of software and convincing existing app makers to port to your platform. To answer the question of why you'd want easy to use software, that push really does come from the corporate world. My favorite example for this is Java, I don't want to get too far off topic, but corporations love java because training houses can churn out java "programmers" (more like code monkeys) quickly in six months or so, and they're cheap and replaceable. They don't understand that some programmers are worth 10-100x more than others and that they should hire those with real skills instead of those who just passed a course (or they do, and just don't care). But the same can be said of other types of employees that were wanted back in the mid-late 80's - those that could work word processors, since computers were expensive (as compared to say typewriters). :-) (The above isn't intend to knock Java as a language, or claim that there are no high end Java coders, just that it's very easy to learn & churn, like Visual BASIC before it.) Jef's actual idea of what the Mac should be was realized into the Canon Cat (and previously, the Swift board for the Apple II). My own experience with the Cat has been that it isn't easy to learn, at least, not if you're used to previous word processors that have cursor keys. The leap keys aren't intuitive and aren't easy to use initially, but once you get used to them, and get past the learning curve, they are quite speedy. So that's the opposite of both your observations. Personally, I found the lack of cursor keys, especially up/down cursor keys extremely frustrating. So, no, this wasn't necessarily easy for noobs to learn either. As for doing difficult jobs that the ROM didn't provide features for, guess what? The Cat was fully programmable. Learn Forth and you can make it do just about anything the hardware allowed for. The same was true of the Mac - if you had a Lisa and the Workshop to reprogram your Mac with (Ok, later, Mac development packages were released) :-) Or if you really needed that feature, and aren't a programmer, you went out and bought Microsoft Word or whatever had the feature. As for speed keys and advanced features, well Duh! They're right there on the keyboard, plain for all to see, you don't even have to open the manual to look at them. Certainly a lot easier to access and learn than the obscure keys in Word Perfect. Gee, what does shift/control-F5 do again? What about Alt-F5? What about F5? Oh right... it's not there on the keyboard, I'll have to spend time with a manual if I want to do anything advanced. I don't see what the Jef bashing in the two above messages is about, really. If you guys are bashing the Mac, then Jef had little to do with the Mac - the design constrains on the Mac came from two things: cost of parts such as RAM, and design decisions (which came from management.) As the target audience was word processing, the Cat had a good word processor that handled almost everything someone would want from a word processor at the time, including a built in spell checker. It also had terminal software, so you could send your documents between Cats over phone lines. So it met a lot of the needs of the users of that era. And if you needed to do math, the editor could be used in that way. Not quite as a spreadsheet, but passable for lite needs. All the software was built in, you turned it on and it came up where you left off (if you left your work floppy in the drive), and no hassles with first loading a disk operating system, then loading an application. You powered it on and it just worked - exactly where you left off when you had shut it off. It wasn't a hobbyist's machine, it wasn't expandable, but it was programmable. And it was something you could run your business with in that day and age. Certainly was a lot nicer and far less expensive than some of the bigger word processing systems such as the Wangs. An interesting tidbit: - as I understand it, the Cat originally was designed to support proportional fonts, and the Cat's display, like the Mac's, is a bitmapped display. But Canon for whatever reason (either lack of fonts in their printers, or concern about the speed of printing graphics) asked IA to use monospaced fonts in the Cat. So the parent company did have a lot of influence as to the design of the Cat, but over all, for an appliance, the Cat did a good job for what it was intended to. The original Mac would have been a wonderful machine, provided it had a lot more RAM, and provided it was at least sold with an external floppy drive. IMHO, the first truly usable Mac was the Plus (at least the models that had hard drives). The 512KE came close. And yes, I still think the Mac should have had the Lisa's operating system rather than the other way around, but that just wasn't possible with the cost of hardware at the time. (As slow as the Lisa was, it was light years ahead of the first Mac in terms of capabilities. The Mac Plus with a hard drive was equivalent to what the Lisa had in terms of hardware resources. You really do need at least 1M of memory + a hard drive for that kind of machine.) But, even with severely limited resources, you could still get a usable GUI system and do useful work. GEOS on the C64, hooked up to a decent printer could come close. Nowhere as easy to use as a Cat in terms of just turn it on and go, but perfectly fine for home word processing and the like. I remember doing my homework with this setup and driving the teachers nuts because everyone else handed hand written loose leaf homework. :-) From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 3 09:55:07 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 May 2009 07:55:07 -0700 Subject: Xerox 820-II diskette formats In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <49FD4DDB.9162.489D189@cclist.sydex.com> The 820-II 8" samples in my library show 77*1*26*256 and 77*2*26*256 formats. My 820-II drives were originally SA-800 single-sided models, replaced with double-sided units. I believe that alternative ROMS were also offered by third parties. I believe that there might be source code for the BIOS ROM for the 820-II wandering around also. There certainly is for the Ferguson Big Board, which is a close relative. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Sun May 3 10:21:41 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 03 May 2009 09:21:41 -0600 Subject: Apple II swift board (was: More broken Apples...) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 03 May 2009 10:25:51 -0400. <49FDA96F.1010203@arachelian.com> Message-ID: In article <49FDA96F.1010203 at arachelian.com>, Ray Arachelian writes: > Jef's actual idea of what the Mac should be was realized into the Canon > Cat (and previously, the Swift board for the Apple II). I've never heard of the "Swift board for the Apple II". Googling didn't turn up anything useful, although maybe I just didn't use the right incantation. What is it and where can I read about it? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun May 3 10:35:13 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 08:35:13 -0700 Subject: More broken Apples... In-Reply-To: <49FDA96F.1010203@arachelian.com> References: <20090501132715.M10155@shell.lmi.net> <49FDA96F.1010203@arachelian.com> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 10:25:51 -0400 > From: ray at arachelian.com > To: > Subject: Re: More broken Apples... > > I'm replying to two messages at once here. :-) > > Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Fri, 1 May 2009, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>> Far too often, things that are 'easy to use' (really meaning 'easy to >>> learn') make simple jobs trivial, but difficult jobs next-to-impossible. >>> Since I don't generally have problems doing simple jobs, you can tell >>> which sort of product I prefer... >>> >> >> Strangely, I could never get that idea across to Jef Raskin. >> > > > Warren Wolfe wrote: >> I was shocked at how many people believed that the value of a word >> processing program was inversely proportional to the time it took a >> brain-damaged chimpanzee (or novice user, whichever is more >> convenient) to crank out a thank you note for the first time. That >> was it, end of story. I would always ask questions, and almost always >> just got a blank stare in reply: >> >> Don't you want a program that lets you improve your efficiency? >> Will you always be a total noob, or do you expect to understand your >> computer one day? >> How fast are good typists who use this program? >> Are there "speed keys" for any of these functions? > > If you're talking about the original Mac, this is true. But keep in > mind that Jef was off the Mac project before it changed directions. > > Jef's design for the Mac would have made it another text oriented system > with an 8 bit, or 16 bit CPU. While it's true that Jef convinced Steve > Jobs to go to Xerox PARC, the original designs for both the Mac and the > Lisa (which Jef wasn't working on) did not include the GUI. Steve got > kicked out of the Lisa team and he took over Jef's team, pushing Jef out > - that's how the Mac became the Mac. See folklore.org for those bits of > history. Jef was a strongly thought that even the Apple II should have RAM bitmapped graphics. I doubt he changed his mind for the Mac. What he was against was mixing text entry and graphics operations. He was not against graphics or the mouse. The Canon Cat was restricted to a text only machine because of Canon. It was designed to have graphic capabilities with a mouse, by Jef. He just didn't want people bouncing back and forth between the mouse and the keyboard. Dwight > > The apps that shipped with the original Mac weren't meant to be high end > power user apps. They were something to work with until profession apps > hit the market. For most users they got the job done. Otherwise, Apple > wouldn't have tried to get Lotus and Microsoft to port their wares to > the Mac, and supposing that the original Mac wasn't the one released in > 1984, but instead the Mac SE or the Mac Plus was, if Apple had built > fully functional replacements for Microsoft Word and Lotus 123, then > that would have slowed down the software market for the Mac as it would > have pissed off the big software houses. That would have limited the > original Mac far more. Whenever you have a new machine to market, your > biggest problem is the lack of software and convincing existing app > makers to port to your platform. > > To answer the question of why you'd want easy to use software, that push > really does come from the corporate world. My favorite example for this > is Java, I don't want to get too far off topic, but corporations love > java because training houses can churn out java "programmers" (more like > code monkeys) quickly in six months or so, and they're cheap and > replaceable. They don't understand that some programmers are worth > 10-100x more than others and that they should hire those with real > skills instead of those who just passed a course (or they do, and just > don't care). But the same can be said of other types of employees that > were wanted back in the mid-late 80's - those that could work word > processors, since computers were expensive (as compared to say > typewriters). :-) > (The above isn't intend to knock Java as a language, or claim that there > are no high end Java coders, just that it's very easy to learn & churn, > like Visual BASIC before it.) > > > Jef's actual idea of what the Mac should be was realized into the Canon > Cat (and previously, the Swift board for the Apple II). > > My own experience with the Cat has been that it isn't easy to learn, at > least, not if you're used to previous word processors that have cursor > keys. The leap keys aren't intuitive and aren't easy to use initially, > but once you get used to them, and get past the learning curve, they are > quite speedy. So that's the opposite of both your observations. > Personally, I found the lack of cursor keys, especially up/down cursor > keys extremely frustrating. So, no, this wasn't necessarily easy for > noobs to learn either. > > As for doing difficult jobs that the ROM didn't provide features for, > guess what? The Cat was fully programmable. Learn Forth and you can > make it do just about anything the hardware allowed for. > The same was true of the Mac - if you had a Lisa and the Workshop to > reprogram your Mac with (Ok, later, Mac development packages were > released) :-) Or if you really needed that feature, and aren't a > programmer, you went out and bought Microsoft Word or whatever had the > feature. > > As for speed keys and advanced features, well Duh! They're right there > on the keyboard, plain for all to see, you don't even have to open the > manual to look at them. Certainly a lot easier to access and learn than > the obscure keys in Word Perfect. Gee, what does shift/control-F5 do > again? What about Alt-F5? What about F5? Oh right... it's not there on > the keyboard, I'll have to spend time with a manual if I want to do > anything advanced. > > I don't see what the Jef bashing in the two above messages is about, > really. If you guys are bashing the Mac, then Jef had little to do with > the Mac - the design constrains on the Mac came from two things: cost of > parts such as RAM, and design decisions (which came from management.) > > As the target audience was word processing, the Cat had a good word > processor that handled almost everything someone would want from a word > processor at the time, including a built in spell checker. It also had > terminal software, so you could send your documents between Cats over > phone lines. So it met a lot of the needs of the users of that era. > And if you needed to do math, the editor could be used in that way. Not > quite as a spreadsheet, but passable for lite needs. All the software > was built in, you turned it on and it came up where you left off (if you > left your work floppy in the drive), and no hassles with first loading a > disk operating system, then loading an application. You powered it on > and it just worked - exactly where you left off when you had shut it off. > > It wasn't a hobbyist's machine, it wasn't expandable, but it was > programmable. And it was something you could run your business with in > that day and age. Certainly was a lot nicer and far less expensive than > some of the bigger word processing systems such as the Wangs. > > An interesting tidbit: - as I understand it, the Cat originally was > designed to support proportional fonts, and the Cat's display, like the > Mac's, is a bitmapped display. But Canon for whatever reason (either > lack of fonts in their printers, or concern about the speed of printing > graphics) asked IA to use monospaced fonts in the Cat. So the parent > company did have a lot of influence as to the design of the Cat, but > over all, for an appliance, the Cat did a good job for what it was > intended to. > > The original Mac would have been a wonderful machine, provided it had a > lot more RAM, and provided it was at least sold with an external floppy > drive. IMHO, the first truly usable Mac was the Plus (at least the > models that had hard drives). The 512KE came close. And yes, I still > think the Mac should have had the Lisa's operating system rather than > the other way around, but that just wasn't possible with the cost of > hardware at the time. (As slow as the Lisa was, it was light years > ahead of the first Mac in terms of capabilities. The Mac Plus with a > hard drive was equivalent to what the Lisa had in terms of hardware > resources. You really do need at least 1M of memory + a hard drive for > that kind of machine.) > > But, even with severely limited resources, you could still get a usable > GUI system and do useful work. GEOS on the C64, hooked up to a decent > printer could come close. Nowhere as easy to use as a Cat in terms of > just turn it on and go, but perfectly fine for home word processing and > the like. I remember doing my homework with this setup and driving the > teachers nuts because everyone else handed hand written loose leaf > homework. :-) > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail? has ever-growing storage! Don?t worry about storage limits. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage1_052009 From chd_1 at nktelco.net Sun May 3 10:41:15 2009 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Sun, 03 May 2009 11:41:15 -0400 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? In-Reply-To: <49FB7466.1060500@hachti.de> References: <49FA23E5.7010009@softjar.se> <49FB7466.1060500@hachti.de> Message-ID: <49FDBB1B.7040901@nktelco.net> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > > I could imagine that one has to load several binaries on top of each > other to pull together the core image that comes as BUILD.SV. But > where can I find the instructions? > The OS8 Handbook and the documents you mentioned have about all the information you should need. > > Philipp :-) > -chuck From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Sun May 3 10:54:01 2009 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 03 May 2009 11:54:01 -0400 Subject: Apple II swift board Message-ID: <20090503155401.E58B3BA51A4@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > I've never heard of the "Swift board for the Apple II". Googling > didn't turn up anything useful, although maybe I just didn't use the > right incantation. Try "SwyftCard". It's interesting to see how the concepts that were swimming around in Jef Raskin's head turned up and around into realizations in the 80's. Tim. From ray at arachelian.com Sun May 3 12:44:34 2009 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sun, 03 May 2009 13:44:34 -0400 Subject: Apple II swift board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49FDD802.8020000@arachelian.com> Richard wrote: > I've never heard of the "Swift board for the Apple II". Googling > didn't turn up anything useful, although maybe I just didn't use the > right incantation. > > What is it and where can I read about it? > Mea Culpa, it's actually spelled "Swyft" :-) http://www.digibarn.com/collections/parts/swyft-card/index.html From ray at arachelian.com Sun May 3 12:50:28 2009 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sun, 03 May 2009 13:50:28 -0400 Subject: More broken Apples... In-Reply-To: References: <20090501132715.M10155@shell.lmi.net> <49FDA96F.1010203@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <49FDD964.6010607@arachelian.com> dwight elvey wrote: > Jef was a strongly thought that even the Apple II should > have RAM bitmapped graphics. I doubt he changed his mind > for the Mac. What he was against was mixing text entry > and graphics operations. He was not against graphics > or the mouse. > I could see where this is a problem. The mixed modes are useful in certain fields... like semi-graphical adventure games... Think Zork but with a display of where you are as well as a text entry field. Which I suppose is what they were used for. Switching between text mode and graphic modes has gone the way of the dodo. Mostly because of graphics accelerator cards. But text modes do tend to be a lot faster. > The Canon Cat was restricted to a text only machine > because of Canon. It was designed to have graphic > capabilities with a mouse, by Jef. > Yup. > He just didn't want people bouncing back and forth > between the mouse and the keyboard. > I tend to agree with that sentiment. I've come to hate mice and love the little nipple pointer things on keyboards from using IBM thinkpads for so long. Never liked trackpads, didn't really like mice, I do like trackballs though - they give a lot more feedback than trackpads. The whole lifting your hand off the keyboard to move the mouse (or trackball) and then back to type thing is annoying. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 3 13:16:32 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 19:16:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: More broken Apples... In-Reply-To: <49FDD964.6010607@arachelian.com> from "Ray Arachelian" at May 3, 9 01:50:28 pm Message-ID: > dodo. Mostly because of graphics accelerator cards. But text modes do > tend to be a lot faster. I was told that one of the design specifications of the PERQ (which had a bit-mapped display, no hardware text mode at all) was that it shold be as fast at displaying text as a typical machine of the time. A 'typical machine' used a text termianl with a 9600 buad link, so under 1000 characters a second. Given a 80*24 screen, that meant a full screen update took a couple of seconds. I can't remember the exact specification of the final PERQ, but I seem to remember it could do 10 complete screen updates (and it's a larger screen than 80*24 text) in a second. Of course some other machines (HP9000/200s spring to mind) have separate full-screen hardware text and graphics display systems that can be displayed together (if you so wish). > though - they give a lot more feedback than trackpads. The whole > lifting your hand off the keyboard to move the mouse (or trackball) and > then back to type thing is annoying. If I have to use a mouse, I'd like one with a chording keyboard built in :-) -tony From legalize at xmission.com Sun May 3 14:04:54 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 03 May 2009 13:04:54 -0600 Subject: Apple II swift board In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 03 May 2009 11:54:01 -0400. <20090503155401.E58B3BA51A4@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: In article <20090503155401.E58B3BA51A4 at mini-me.trailing-edge.com>, shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) writes: > > I've never heard of the "Swift board for the Apple II". Googling > > didn't turn up anything useful, although maybe I just didn't use the > > right incantation. > > Try "SwyftCard". OK, that turned up a few things, but I'm still not exactly clear on what was on the board that upgraded an apple //e so much. Was it just a processor running FORTH in ROM? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Sun May 3 14:10:21 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Sun, 03 May 2009 12:10:21 -0700 Subject: MC3418 CVSD Encoding (Was: Re: Looking for IBM PS/2 or PCjr SpeechAdapter Tech Ref References: <49FBCC9A.4010200@brutman.com> <49FDA542.1060803@brutman.com> Message-ID: <003301c9cc22$ce5bb200$0201a8c0@hal9000> Mike, You say you understand the principle behind the MC3418 so we will fast forward past that point. If the output of the device ( data out ) toggles between one and zero and back ( one sample period each ) then your display needs to increase up and down by what ever the integration voltage will do in that time period. To make it simple, let's just say that on your display you will increment or decrement the vertical component ( Y ) by one. If the output stays high ( or low ) for four consecutive sample periods, then you need to increment ( or decrement respectively ) by how much the integrated voltage will transition at the new slope setting ( the new gain on the integrator ). For giggles lets say that the delta increase is now four instead of one. Just increment ( decrement ) by four instead of one. If you play around with this it really is easier than it sounds. If you aren't that concerned with an accurate portrayal of the data but a representative waveform is good enough, just always increment / decrement with the same number and all you will lose is the amplitude accuracy. Hope this helps. Best regards, Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael B. Brutman" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 7:08 AM Subject: MC3418 CVSD Encoding (Was: Re: Looking for IBM PS/2 or PCjr SpeechAdapter Tech Ref > Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > > > The PCjr Speech Adapter sidecar is rumored to be identical to the PS/2 > > version, at least as far as the BIOS support on the adapter goes. > > > > Ok - it looks like nobody has ready access to a tech ref for the PCjr > version or the PS/2 version of the speech adapter. I am sure its buried > in a nice binder with a slipcover somewhere but I don't have the PS/2 > set - I only have the PC family set of docs and they didn't make one of > these for the PC or XT. > > The part of the adapter I'm interested in is driven by a MC3418. This > chip does CVSD encoding and decoding of waveforms. I understand the > principle behind CVSD encoding and decoding, but not enough to start > writing code. I want to write some code takes CVSD encoded data and > displays the waveform on a screen, for a sound editor. Does anybody > have any experience reading MC3418 encoded data? > > > Thanks, > Mike From ray at arachelian.com Sun May 3 14:28:29 2009 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sun, 03 May 2009 15:28:29 -0400 Subject: Apple II swift board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49FDF05D.6040801@arachelian.com> Richard wrote: > OK, that turned up a few things, but I'm still not exactly clear on > what was on the board that upgraded an apple //e so much. Was it just > a processor running FORTH in ROM? > It was just a ROM, although I think I read something about a modification that gave the Apple II leap keys or such. Apparently a lower cost version was available on 5.25" floppy. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 3 16:24:34 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 14:24:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More broken Apples... In-Reply-To: <49FDA96F.1010203@arachelian.com> References: <20090501132715.M10155@shell.lmi.net> <49FDA96F.1010203@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <20090503141322.R95916@shell.lmi.net> > > Strangely, I could never get that idea across to Jef Raskin. On Sun, 3 May 2009, Ray Arachelian wrote: > I'm replying to two messages at once here. :-) > If you're talking about the original Mac, this is true. But keep in > mind that Jef was off the Mac project before it changed directions. I didn't say Mac. > To answer the question of why you'd want easy to use software, that push > really does come from the corporate world. My favorite example for this My entire post was about differentiating "easy to use" v "easy to learn". The corporate push is for "easy to learn", since they don't want a training expense for the digital sweatshop. Apple's marketing pushes "easy to learn" while calling it "easy to use". "Easy to use" and "easy to learn" may occasionally overlap, but are NOT the same for those who are capable of learning. Conflation of the two phrases is detrimental to the well being of our species. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun May 3 17:24:54 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 15:24:54 -0700 Subject: Apple II swift board In-Reply-To: <49FDF05D.6040801@arachelian.com> References: <49FDF05D.6040801@arachelian.com> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 15:28:29 -0400 > From: ray at arachelian.com > To: > Subject: Re: Apple II swift board > > Richard wrote: >> OK, that turned up a few things, but I'm still not exactly clear on >> what was on the board that upgraded an apple //e so much. Was it just >> a processor running FORTH in ROM? >> > It was just a ROM, although I think I read something about a > modification that gave the Apple II leap keys or such. > Apparently a lower cost version was available on 5.25" floppy. Hi The small keys beside the space bar were used for leap keys. It wasn't uncommon to shorten the space bar and enlarge the leap keys. See: http://regnirps.com/Apple6502stuff/apple_iie_cat.htm Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd1_052009 From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 3 17:36:26 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 May 2009 15:36:26 -0700 Subject: More broken Apples... In-Reply-To: <20090503141322.R95916@shell.lmi.net> References: , <49FDA96F.1010203@arachelian.com>, <20090503141322.R95916@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <49FDB9FA.3365.6306103@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 May 2009 at 14:24, Fred Cisin wrote: > My entire post was about differentiating "easy to use" v "easy to > learn". The corporate push is for "easy to learn", since they don't > want a training expense for the digital sweatshop. Apple's marketing > pushes "easy to learn" while calling it "easy to use". "Easy to use" > and "easy to learn" may occasionally overlap, but are NOT the same for > those who are capable of learning. Or, as one person put it--WYLIWYL - "What you learn is what you like". --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 3 17:59:09 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 15:59:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More broken Apples... In-Reply-To: <49FDB9FA.3365.6306103@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <49FDA96F.1010203@arachelian.com>, <20090503141322.R95916@shell.lmi.net> <49FDB9FA.3365.6306103@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20090503155731.V95916@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 3 May 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Or, as one person put it--WYLIWYL - "What you learn is what you > like". AKA "the baby duck syndrome" From ploopster at gmail.com Sun May 3 19:07:21 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 03 May 2009 20:07:21 -0400 Subject: More broken Apples... In-Reply-To: <49FDB9FA.3365.6306103@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <49FDA96F.1010203@arachelian.com>, <20090503141322.R95916@shell.lmi.net> <49FDB9FA.3365.6306103@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <49FE31B9.3010806@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 3 May 2009 at 14:24, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> My entire post was about differentiating "easy to use" v "easy to >> learn". The corporate push is for "easy to learn", since they don't >> want a training expense for the digital sweatshop. Apple's marketing >> pushes "easy to learn" while calling it "easy to use". "Easy to use" >> and "easy to learn" may occasionally overlap, but are NOT the same for >> those who are capable of learning. > > Or, as one person put it--WYLIWYL - "What you learn is what you > like". The one I prefer is WYSIWTF. I found that one hilarious. Peace... Sridhar From lists at databasics.us Sun May 3 19:32:14 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sun, 03 May 2009 14:32:14 -1000 Subject: Chips that changed the world In-Reply-To: <49FD99E9.3000607@arachelian.com> References: <49FCA151.2C1E843A@cs.ubc.ca> <4affc5e0905021350x29e5acfbx3338847a64cd28cd@mail.gmail.com> <49FD99E9.3000607@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <49FE378E.8060303@databasics.us> Ray Arachelian wrote: Keep in mind that there are things such as deadlines to consider, so quick and dirty tricks like those, look nasty in hindsight, and certainly take a lot of time to clean up afterwards, but they do get the job done for the moment. How many programming teams consider the long run versus "just get it out the door"? Or I should say, how many programmer's managers consider the long run? :-) Individuals almost always care about their work and want to do a job that will last, despite deadlines or pressure to cut corners. But managerial pressure to do the wrong thing usually prevails. Yes, Ray, that's vitally important. Good call. A company I was with, Systems Research, Inc., made a Burroughs TD-830 Emulator terminal. When they were done with that, they had about 1 K (Yes, 1 K) of ROM space, and wanted to know if the machine could ALSO be programmed to be a regular ANSI terminal as well. As it turns out, yes, it could.-- sort of. The first job was to take the 31-K TD-830 code, and make it more efficient. That got about another 4 K, and was politically very difficult, as the TD-830 people were in a different group, and got huffy at us improving their code. Then the TTY code was written with an INCREDIBLE number of "dirty tricks." Of course, we called routines already written for the TD-830 whenever possible, and, truth be told, sometimes when it was NOT possible. at one point, we hopped into a text message which terminated (as did they all) with a byte of 00H, which is a NOP for the Z80, and then fell into another routine. ASCII characters tend to be register-to-register moves, we just loaded different registers with input values, and used some of the effects to save a dozen or so bytes of code. When all was said and done, it worked, an we had 5 extra bytes, so we wrote a "LIFE" program. (Just kidding.) Anyway, the project manager later said that we had used everything but the top half of the blue bytes. Also, by comparison, note that AT&T was prohibited from selling or licensing Unix as a commercial product until about 1984, though thy DID place it in universities. The point is that they did NOT have "market pressures" for new releases, and because of that, produced a huge, complex, quite possibly bug-free product that is a joy to use. And I'm not sorry to sound like an evangelist -- Unix is the best software ever written by humans. It was also originally conceived in the 1960s, and made it into reasonable use in the early 1970s, so its OLD software, for purposes of OT discussion. The Mac world has recently made a massive improvement by going to an O/S based upon a flavor of Unix. Now, we need to do that for the PC world, and normal progress can resume. There's no need to be chipping new wheel designs out of stone when we have an independent suspension chassis available, and can bolt on any body we want. Let the programmers develop gee-gaws and new user interfaces for it, but the core, the user and process handling and the file system of Unix are WAY better than any other attempt so far. Linux is a variant, and free. So.... "Not Invented Here" is the only reason to use another base O/S, at least until something better comes along. Peace, Warren From lists at databasics.us Sun May 3 19:58:03 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sun, 03 May 2009 14:58:03 -1000 Subject: More broken Apples... In-Reply-To: <49FDA96F.1010203@arachelian.com> References: <20090501132715.M10155@shell.lmi.net> <49FDA96F.1010203@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <49FE3D9B.8060508@databasics.us> Ray Arachelian wrote: Warren Wolfe wrote: > > I was shocked at how many people believed that the value of a word > > processing program was inversely proportional to the time it took a > > brain-damaged chimpanzee (or novice user, whichever is more > > convenient) to crank out a thank you note for the first time. That > > was it, end of story. I would always ask questions, and almost always > > just got a blank stare in reply: > > > > Don't you want a program that lets you improve your efficiency? > > Will you always be a total noob, or do you expect to understand your > > computer one day? > > How fast are good typists who use this program? > > Are there "speed keys" for any of these functions? > If you're talking about the original Mac, this is true. But keep in mind that Jef was off the Mac project before it changed directions. Yes, the original Mac was my target here, NOT Jef. To answer the question of why you'd want easy to use software, that push really does come from the corporate world. My favorite example for this is Java, I don't want to get too far off topic, but corporations love java because training houses can churn out java "programmers" (more like code monkeys) quickly in six months or so, and they're cheap and replaceable. All true. Again, my gripe is with software that is hard to use, but easy to learn. The user progresses to "barely functional" in a couple of minutes (the time of a demo) and then has a bear of a time getting any more EFFICIENT with it. Jef's actual idea of what the Mac should be was realized into the Canon Cat (and previously, the Swift board for the Apple II). Yes, and this is why I've no gripe with Jef -- The Cat *IS* a machine one could make one's bitch, as it were. My primal example of this is the original WordStar. It was holy hell to learn, but when you did learn it, you FLEW. It's still in use today in "mills" where productivity is paramount. Nowhere near intuitive, but, when typing, one only needed the keys burned into the brain of any good touch typist, plus the control key. Typists do NOT need to look up, find the cursor, grab the mouse, move the cursor over the text, highlight it, then go up and mouse around in a series of menus.... thus wasting time. As for speed keys and advanced features, well Duh! They're right there on the keyboard, plain for all to see, you don't even have to open the manual to look at them. Certainly a lot easier to access and learn than the obscure keys in Word Perfect. Gee, what does shift/control-F5 do again? What about Alt-F5? What about F5? Oh right... it's not there on the keyboard, I'll have to spend time with a manual if I want to do anything advanced. WordPerfect was an anomaly. It was only possible because Ward sold MicroPro, and they weren't advancing. WP's claim to fame was that they had support available to help you use their clumsy product. And, most users could count on having to USE the support line from time to time. The GUI/Mouse WP programs are as clumsy, but prettier. WP was NOT as fast for a good touch typist as WordStar, since the whole set of function keys, with various shift states (EEK - originally typed "shift" without the "F") are NOT burned into the brain of a typist. USE of WordStar required one to learn, at the cellular level, the position of the control key -- but nothing else. I don't see what the Jef bashing in the two above messages is about, really. If you guys are bashing the Mac, then Jef had little to do with the Mac - the design constrains on the Mac came from two things: cost of parts such as RAM, and design decisions (which came from management.) Again, I am not bashing Jef. I like his work. M-Kay? Friends? Peace, Warren From lists at databasics.us Sun May 3 20:04:14 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sun, 03 May 2009 15:04:14 -1000 Subject: More broken Apples... In-Reply-To: <49FDD964.6010607@arachelian.com> References: <20090501132715.M10155@shell.lmi.net> <49FDA96F.1010203@arachelian.com> <49FDD964.6010607@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <49FE3F0E.8030805@databasics.us> Ray Arachelian wrote: I've come to hate mice and love the little nipple pointer things on keyboards from using IBM thinkpads for so long. It's a guy thing.... Warren From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun May 3 20:14:54 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 21:14:54 -0400 Subject: Chips that changed the world In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0905021350x29e5acfbx3338847a64cd28cd@mail.gmail.com> References: <49FCA151.2C1E843A@cs.ubc.ca> <4affc5e0905021350x29e5acfbx3338847a64cd28cd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 4:50 PM, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > Then of course there were those programmers that thought they were > clever, using the top 8 bits to store flags in pointers, etc. ?Royally > messed up when upgrading to 68020 and up. I remember reading a warning against such practices the original Mac system manuals (the "hernia manuals"), but faced with 128K of RAM, early programmers did not universally heed the warning. > Somehow this seemed only a problem on Macs - the "dirty" ROMs issue on > the SE30 and some others. ?I don't recall the Amiga ever having those > issues, and I have no clue about the Atari... I don't know about the Atari either, but I think Amiga folks learned from the mess in the Mac world, or perhaps there were more experienced 68K programmers a year or two later who didn't feel the need to break things like that, or perhaps it was because the base Amiga 1000 came with twice the memory as the first Mac and was trivial to upgrade to four times the memory of the original Mac. -ethan From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun May 3 20:36:48 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 21:36:48 -0400 Subject: home brew S-100 backplane project Message-ID: <2EF06AC781CF43AFB06CBFBFAE39E665@andrewdesktop> [snip] > > Hi! The S-100 backplane PCBs have arrived. Please contact me if > interested in getting one. Thanks and have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch [AJL>] Hi! I updated the N8VEM wiki with some pictures of the S-100 PCB and construction so far. http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=S100 I've partially built one of the units for testing. I've gone as far as I can go but some parts are on back order. What is missing is the power connector (0.200" spaced headers male). My plan is to finish assembly and test the active terminator section before installing the S-100 connectors. Some people have been concerned about availability of the S-100 connectors but they are plentiful and relatively cheap. At Mouser you can get EDAC parts which should work for $5 each. You can also substitute wire wrap connectors which sometimes can be found on eBay for $3 each. I test installed but did not solder some wire wrap S-100 connectors and they should work just fine. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun May 3 20:53:24 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 03 May 2009 18:53:24 -0700 Subject: More broken Apples... In-Reply-To: <49FE3D9B.8060508@databasics.us> References: <20090501132715.M10155@shell.lmi.net> <49FDA96F.1010203@arachelian.com> <49FE3D9B.8060508@databasics.us> Message-ID: <49FE4A94.3010002@mail.msu.edu> Warren Wolfe wrote: > Typists do NOT need to look up, find the cursor, grab the mouse, move > the cursor over the text, highlight it, then go up and mouse around in > a series of menus.... thus wasting time. I can't think of a single, modern word-processor that _requires_ the user to do the above for common actions. Word, Open Office, "Pages" from Apple have numerous shortcut keys (some, perhaps, have _too_ many...) that make using the mouse/menus unnecessary -- but that option is still there for the user who a) is new to the software or b) hasn't yet learned what the keyboard shortcut for "insert table at cursor after frobbing" is. (Or perhaps more importantly -- that the "insert table at cursor after frobbing" option even exists -- having a well-designed UI makes features more discoverable.) At the risk of making this topic even MORE off topic than it already is, I'm curious what specific software you feel falls into the bucket of "hard to use but easy to learn." (Incidentally, where I used to work I knew several touch-typists who swore by WordPerfect 5.1 for DOS. Evidently they didn't find it "clumsy" at all. Then again, I found it an incredible pain to use...) Josh From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 3 21:10:09 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 22:10:09 -0400 Subject: Chips that changed the world In-Reply-To: <49FE378E.8060303@databasics.us> References: <49FCA151.2C1E843A@cs.ubc.ca> <4affc5e0905021350x29e5acfbx3338847a64cd28cd@mail.gmail.com> <49FD99E9.3000607@arachelian.com> <49FE378E.8060303@databasics.us> Message-ID: <63128144-61A9-4EE3-9811-F6C8DF5DEFEA@neurotica.com> On May 3, 2009, at 8:32 PM, Warren Wolfe wrote: > As it turns out, yes, it could.-- sort of. The first job was to > take the 31-K TD-830 code, and make it more efficient. That got > about another 4 K, and was politically very difficult, as the > TD-830 people were in a different group, and got huffy at us > improving their code. Then the TTY code was written with an > INCREDIBLE number of "dirty tricks." Of course, we called routines > already written for the TD-830 whenever possible, and, truth be > told, sometimes when it was NOT possible. at one point, we hopped > into a text message which terminated (as did they all) with a byte > of 00H, which is a NOP for the Z80, and then fell into another > routine. ASCII characters tend to be register-to-register moves, > we just loaded different registers with input values, and used some > of the effects to save a dozen or so bytes of code. When all was > said and done, it worked, an we had 5 extra bytes, so we wrote a > "LIFE" program. (Just kidding.) Anyway, the project manager later > said that we had used everything but the top half of the blue bytes. Yow. That sounds like the innards of Intel's 8052AH-BASIC interpreter. Have you ever read that source code? It's mind- boggling. I spent days un-tricking it and documenting it. (my application targeted processors with significantly more code space than the 8052's 8KB) > Also, by comparison, note that AT&T was prohibited from selling or > licensing Unix as a commercial product until about 1984, though thy > DID place it in universities. The point is that they did NOT have > "market pressures" for new releases, and because of that, produced > a huge, complex, quite possibly bug-free product that is a joy to > use. And I'm not sorry to sound like an evangelist -- Unix is the > best software ever written by humans. It was also originally > conceived in the 1960s, and made it into reasonable use in the > early 1970s, so its OLD software, for purposes of OT discussion. > The Mac world has recently made a massive improvement by going to > an O/S based upon a flavor of Unix. Now, we need to do that for > the PC world, and normal progress can resume. There's no need to > be chipping new wheel designs out of stone when we have an > independent suspension chassis available, and can bolt on any body > we want. Let the programmers develop gee-gaws and new user > interfaces for it, but the core, the user and process handling and > the file system of Unix are WAY better than any other attempt so > far. Linux is a variant, and free. So.... "Not Invented Here" is > the only reason to use another base O/S, at least until something > better comes along. Agree 100%. Loudly. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 3 21:36:10 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 22:36:10 -0400 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? In-Reply-To: <49FC8B73.4060605@softjar.se> References: <49FC8B73.4060605@softjar.se> Message-ID: On May 2, 2009, at 2:05 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Funny that noone else around seems to be able to answer. I thought > there were atleast some people with experience from older systems > around. :-) I'd say this was a pretty esoteric issue. ;) I've done tons of stuff with OS/8, going back to when I was about 16 (24 years ago, ugh!) but have never run across this. Now, I finally got an ASR-33 a few weeks ago, and I want to connect it to a PDP-8, so I might have to think about this some more! :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jfoust at threedee.com Sun May 3 21:36:47 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 03 May 2009 21:36:47 -0500 Subject: Shipping Containers (was Re: machine room in a trailer?) In-Reply-To: <49F8E03D.9050000@bitsavers.org> References: <6dbe3c380904291102y6525a77fvf35d24c17a268e6b@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380904291336u2deb92b3n1d07d890507ff61f@mail.gmail.com> <1952A6FA-6978-4EA9-9A69-CBB34DBF4E19@neurotica.com> <49F8E03D.9050000@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090503213630.082e9b98@mail.threedee.com> At 06:18 PM 4/29/2009, Al Kossow wrote: >Unmodified shipping containers are not at all suitable for storage of electronics or >paper. Much of the CHAC and Perham Foundation collections were destroyed by storing >them in shipping containers and sitting them on the ground in San Jose. What exactly was lost? - John From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 3 22:01:44 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 May 2009 20:01:44 -0700 Subject: More broken Apples... In-Reply-To: <49FE4A94.3010002@mail.msu.edu> References: , <49FE3D9B.8060508@databasics.us>, <49FE4A94.3010002@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <49FDF828.6403.7239C1A@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 May 2009 at 18:53, Josh Dersch wrote: > (Incidentally, where I used to work I knew several touch-typists who > swore by WordPerfect 5.1 for DOS. Evidently they didn't find it > "clumsy" at all. Then again, I found it an incredible pain to use...) WordStar is wired into my hands. Even on *nix, I use Joe because of the WS keyboard mappings and "work-alikeness". Cheers, Chuck From ama at ugr.es Mon May 4 00:30:47 2009 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel Martin Alganza) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 07:30:47 +0200 Subject: More broken Apples... In-Reply-To: <49FDF828.6403.7239C1A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <49FE4A94.3010002@mail.msu.edu> <49FDF828.6403.7239C1A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20090504053047.GL2504@darwin.ugr.es> On Sun, May 03, 2009 at 08:01:44PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 3 May 2009 at 18:53, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > (Incidentally, where I used to work I knew several touch-typists who > > swore by WordPerfect 5.1 for DOS. Evidently they didn't find it > > "clumsy" at all. Then again, I found it an incredible pain to use...) > > WordStar is wired into my hands. Even on *nix, I use Joe because of > the WS keyboard mappings and "work-alikeness". I loved working with both, WP 5.1 and WordStar. I moved to Unix totally and started using Joe, which I loved until I started learning Vim (a hell to learn, maybe, but easy and fast once you understand its way of functioning and change your mind). Together with TeX for processing documents (articles, books, letters, posters, slides) and R for statistics, mathematics and graphics, is a beast. I doubt I will ever switch to a different editor. Cheers, ?ngel From gordon at gjcp.net Sun May 3 05:37:19 2009 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 03 May 2009 11:37:19 +0100 Subject: More P112 boards coming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1241347039.8890.19.camel@elric> On Sat, 2009-05-02 at 21:36 -0700, David Griffith wrote: > 1) Depending on how many 32k chips I have left, I may go ahead and make 1M > modules of the sort that Terry made up a while ago. 512k chips in DIP > packages is very expensive, but for SMT packages, it's very cheap. The 1M > module is nothing more than a daughterboard that plugs into the P112 and > behaves exactly like a pair of DIPs. Just at that, the larger sizes of SMT chips are pretty easy to solder by hand if you've got a fairly pointy iron and enough light. Gordon From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun May 3 07:13:13 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 08:13:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: More P112 boards coming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 2 May 2009, David Griffith wrote: > 1) Depending on how many 32k chips I have left, I may go ahead and make 1M > modules of the sort that Terry made up a while ago. 512k chips in DIP > packages is very expensive, but for SMT packages, it's very cheap. The 1M > module is nothing more than a daughterboard that plugs into the P112 and > behaves exactly like a pair of DIPs. David, What do you consider expensive for 512k SRAM? I just purchased a couple from Jameco for < $10 ea. Might be even less in quantity. -- From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun May 3 14:23:05 2009 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 12:23:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Chips that changed the world Message-ID: <218884.52142.qm@web65513.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> stupid list doesn't even include the Tandy 2000 boot roms. Please don't waster my time w/useless links in the future Rich. K? From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun May 3 13:42:02 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 14:42:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Xerox 820-II diskette formats In-Reply-To: <49FD4DDB.9162.489D189@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <49FD4DDB.9162.489D189@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 May 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The 820-II 8" samples in my library show 77*1*26*256 and 77*2*26*256 > formats. That's fairly conservative, but works out to almost a 1MB for the DSDD diskettes. Most systems I'm familiar with formatted at 32 x 256 in DD mode. > I believe that alternative ROMS were also offered by third parties. I've found a couple of examples out there. > I believe that there might be source code for the BIOS ROM for the > 820-II wandering around also. There certainly is for the Ferguson > Big Board, which is a close relative. Would be interested in the "official" sources if anyone can point me to them. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun May 3 13:43:23 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 14:43:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Apple II swift board (was: More broken Apples...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 3 May 2009, Richard wrote: > > In article <49FDA96F.1010203 at arachelian.com>, > Ray Arachelian writes: > >> Jef's actual idea of what the Mac should be was realized into the Canon >> Cat (and previously, the Swift board for the Apple II). > > I've never heard of the "Swift board for the Apple II". Googling > didn't turn up anything useful, although maybe I just didn't use the > right incantation. The one I have here is a little board with code in ROM. I _think_ there may have been a variant with its own 6502 on board, but I'm not entirely sure of that. -- From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon May 4 03:13:10 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 01:13:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More P112 boards coming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 3 May 2009, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Sat, 2 May 2009, David Griffith wrote: > >> 1) Depending on how many 32k chips I have left, I may go ahead and make 1M >> modules of the sort that Terry made up a while ago. 512k chips in DIP >> packages is very expensive, but for SMT packages, it's very cheap. The 1M >> module is nothing more than a daughterboard that plugs into the P112 and >> behaves exactly like a pair of DIPs. > > David, > > What do you consider expensive for 512k SRAM? I just purchased a couple from > Jameco for < $10 ea. Might be even less in quantity. Someone pointed that out privately. I might go for them. Last time I did the project, those chips were on the order of $17 apiece, which is a big reason why Terry came up with the SMT modules. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon May 4 03:41:44 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 10:41:44 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Bitsavers size in historical storage units In-Reply-To: <20090503004654.A74EBBA5166@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20090503004654.A74EBBA5166@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 2 May 2009, Tim Shoppa wrote: > I just noticed that the total size of the Bitsavers archive seems > to have surpassed 100 Gigabytes in the past few days. No it hasn't ;-) The current total size of Bitsavers (everything including bits and pdf) is 96 GB on a ZFS "partition". Christian From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Mon May 4 06:17:37 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 12:17:37 +0100 Subject: More broken Apples... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7EAAF892-A225-403D-BDFE-1D59E5C58CB0@microspot.co.uk> >> >> To answer the question of why you'd want easy to use software, that >> push >> really does come from the corporate world. My favorite example for >> this > > My entire post was about differentiating "easy to use" v "easy to > learn". > The corporate push is for "easy to learn", since they don't want a > training expense for the digital sweatshop. > Apple's marketing pushes "easy to learn" while calling it "easy to > use". > "Easy to use" and "easy to learn" may occasionally overlap, but are > NOT > the same for those who are capable of learning. > > Conflation of the two phrases is detrimental to the well being of our > species. I agree with the confusion being bad. I do not agree with the rest. Ease of learning is important if you only want to use a program a couple of times. Ideally you do not want to learn anything, you want to get a job done and move on and not have irrelevant facts hanging around in your head for ever-more. Where the Mac UI really used to score over DOS and old Windows programs is that you learned a technique which would be valid in every Mac program you would ever come across, and so was worth learning. It did not matter if the application was word processing, CAD, 3D, spreadsheet, drawing, painting, photo retouching, page layout, music composing, video editing, disk utility or whatever, the techniques were the same. I find it very hard to get users to read a manual these days. If facilities are not visible they do not find them. I know most, probably all, of the people on this list are not manual avoiders but we are a small minority, to write application software today which could only be used after reading a manual would almost be commercial suicide. Quite a few of my users remark that it is so rare to have a printed manual available these days (we mail it out to users who pay a small amount for it). We sell mainly via download and also have a physical product we sell through the Apple stores and elsewhere, but it has to be a standardised box to fit their shelves, and the box is too small to fit the printed manual in. For programs to be used long term I think that user configurability is the key. There is no point hiding facilities as it makes learning harder in the first place but once users become experienced they will know which facilities they use most and can assign them short cuts. The software designer should not make permanent choices on these, though an educated guess which can be overridden can save time. There does need to be a host of features but without impeding ease of learning, this can be very tricky and itself takes years of experience by the designer. Not that my opinion is worth any more than anyone else's. Roger Holmes. From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Mon May 4 06:18:38 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 12:18:38 +0100 Subject: Mac pointers and handles. Was: Chips that changed the world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9543BA31-7C11-4FFE-BBEF-49E642236C1B@microspot.co.uk> > From: Ethan Dicks > Subject: Re: Chips that changed the world >> Then of course there were those programmers that thought they were >> clever, using the top 8 bits to store flags in pointers, etc. ? >> Royally >> messed up when upgrading to 68020 and up. > > I remember reading a warning against such practices the original Mac > system manuals (the "hernia manuals"), but faced with 128K of RAM, > early programmers did not universally heed the warning. As I remember it, the warning was there because Apple had already used the top eight bits of pointers to hold flags for locked, resource, purge-able etc and if you wrote over them the OS crashed or made your application crash when it overwrote your flags. A big chunk of one the developer conference was going 32 bit clean, whereby developers had to use system routines to test and set the flags instead of system macros which had been compiled into our source code without us realising they were macros. For instance it was normal to get the status byte of a handle before locking it and instead of unlocking it, restore the status byte. As these had been done using macros they just went straight to the master pointer and acted on its top 8 bits. There were also system calls or macros for extracting the lower 24 bits which very few people had used as it worked without, but Apple wanted us to use them so they could redefine them to do nothing later. Saving a few bytes caused both Apple and its developers a huge amount of effort later on. Incidentally, you refer to the "hernia manuals". Do you mean the ring bounds ones? At least you could split them up, volume 5 was the problem one, it was a paperback about 2" x 8.5" x 11". Later there was a volume about OCE (IIRC, Open Connectivity Environment) which was as bad if not worse, but at least I never needed to read it, I think that technology died because the application programmers were intimidated by the size of the manual. Does anyone here happen to have a copy of the original loose leaf QuickDraw 3D manuals? Someone chucked out my copy at work thinking they had been supeceeded, but they were far better than the later documentation and still apply to the Quesa open source project I use in my work. I would be willing to pay for them to be copied or scanned, maybe they could go on BitSavers or be put in the official Quesa documentation at SourceForge. Roger Holmes. From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Mon May 4 06:34:37 2009 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 07:34:37 -0400 Subject: Bitsavers size in historical units Message-ID: <20090504113437.28D71BA51C3@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Christian Corti wrote: > On Sat, 2 May 2009, Tim Shoppa wrote: >> I just noticed that the total size of the Bitsavers archive seems >> to have surpassed 100 Gigabytes in the past few days. > No it hasn't ;-) The current total size of Bitsavers (everything including > bits and pdf) is 96 GB on a ZFS "partition". Maybe I did not make myself clear enough. When I wrote 100 Gigabytes, I meant 10**11 bytes, because as I see the archive with rsync there are 100461300404 bytes in it. Certainly when I made the other calculations I used 10**11 bytes. I did not mean 10**8 * 2**10 bytes. I did not mean 10**5 * 2**20 bytes. I did not mean 10**2 * 2**30 bytes. I suspect your 96 GB is 96 * 10**3 * 2**20 bytes, i.e. what you call a GB is actually what a SI-sensitive person would call a KiloMebibyte. Tim. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 4 08:35:54 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 09:35:54 -0400 Subject: Mac pointers and handles. Was: Chips that changed the world In-Reply-To: <9543BA31-7C11-4FFE-BBEF-49E642236C1B@microspot.co.uk> References: <9543BA31-7C11-4FFE-BBEF-49E642236C1B@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 7:18 AM, Roger Holmes wrote: >> From: Ethan Dicks >> Subject: Re: Chips that changed the world > >>> Then of course there were those programmers that thought they were >>> clever, using the top 8 bits to store flags in pointers, etc. ?Royally >>> messed up when upgrading to 68020 and up. >> >> I remember reading a warning against such practices the original Mac >> system manuals (the "hernia manuals"), but faced with 128K of RAM, >> early programmers did not universally heed the warning. > > As I remember it, the warning was there because Apple had already used the > top eight bits of pointers to hold flags for locked, resource, purge-able > etc and if you wrote over them the OS crashed or made your application crash > when it overwrote your flags. Ah. That could be. I never did get into Mac development (I went into embedded 68K programming, then later, Amiga programming for my 68K experience). > Incidentally, you refer to the "hernia manuals". Do you mean the ring bounds > ones? Yes. The ones in the 3-ring binders. At one games house (Software Productions), one of the guys bought his own original Mac and left it at work when he was on vacation. The boss was interested enough in expanding to the Mac market that I think he bought the developer manuals. They stayed at work, at least, and I would browse them while waiting for my C-64 code to compile on 1541 drives or to print on the Diablo 1620 Daisywheel printer. I think they were only called "hernia manuals" because they were larger than, say, the Apple II docs. By the time all the Amiga system docs were published, there was at least twice as much paper, but people didn't raise a whit of a fuss - we were used to phonebook-sized system manuals. -ethan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon May 4 09:01:07 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 07:01:07 -0700 Subject: Apple II swift board (was: More broken Apples...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 14:43:23 -0400 > From: snhirsch at gmail.com > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Apple II swift board (was: More broken Apples...) > > On Sun, 3 May 2009, Richard wrote: > >> >> In article , >> Ray Arachelian writes: >> >>> Jef's actual idea of what the Mac should be was realized into the Canon >>> Cat (and previously, the Swift board for the Apple II). >> >> I've never heard of the "Swift board for the Apple II". Googling >> didn't turn up anything useful, although maybe I just didn't use the >> right incantation. > > The one I have here is a little board with code in ROM. I _think_ there > may have been a variant with its own 6502 on board, but I'm not entirely > sure of that. > Hi I could ask Charlie Springer about that but to my knowledge, it was just the board with the pal, ROM and LM311. I've always wondered what the LM311 did? Could you trace out the board and make a schematic? Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_BR_life_in_synch_052009 From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 4 09:32:34 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 07:32:34 -0700 Subject: Bitsavers size in historical storage units In-Reply-To: <20090503004654.A74EBBA5166@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20090503004654.A74EBBA5166@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <49FEFC82.40509@bitsavers.org> Tim Shoppa wrote: > I just noticed that the total size of the Bitsavers archive seems > to have surpassed 100 Gigabytes in the past few days. It also went through the 15,000 pdf document mark in April. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon May 4 09:46:00 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 07:46:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bitsavers size in historical units In-Reply-To: <20090504113437.28D71BA51C3@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <567507.34875.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 5/4/09, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Christian Corti wrote: > > No it hasn't ;-) The current total size of > Bitsavers (everything including > > bits and pdf) is 96 GB on a ZFS "partition". > > Maybe I did not make myself clear enough. When I wrote > 100 Gigabytes, I meant 10**11 bytes, because as I see the > archive with > rsync there are 100461300404 bytes in it. Certainly when I > made the other > calculations I used 10**11 bytes. Ah, so you used hard disk manufacturer's "lying" gigabytes... A bit is a single one or zero. A byte is eight bits. A kilobyte is 1024 bytes. A megabyte is 1024 kilobytes, and a gigabyte is 1024 megabytes. So, in that case, 100461300404 bytes/1024 comes out to 98106738.68 kilobyes. divided again by 1024 to get 95807.36 megabytes... divided again by 1024 gives us 93.56 gigabytes. 100 gigabytes = 107374182400 bytes. -Ian From legalize at xmission.com Mon May 4 09:48:05 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 08:48:05 -0600 Subject: Apple II swift board (was: More broken Apples...) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 04 May 2009 07:01:07 -0700. Message-ID: Based on the picture, it looks just like a ROM and a couple other chips. I guess I'm not seeing how this little ROM amounts to such a big change in the way the Apple //e works. Did it also include a diskette? If so, what was on it? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 4 09:51:05 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 10:51:05 -0400 Subject: Bitsavers size in historical storage units In-Reply-To: <49FEFC82.40509@bitsavers.org> References: <20090503004654.A74EBBA5166@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <49FEFC82.40509@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On May 4, 2009, at 10:32 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> I just noticed that the total size of the Bitsavers archive seems >> to have surpassed 100 Gigabytes in the past few days. > > It also went through the 15,000 pdf document mark in April. That is nothing short of mind boggling, Al. Thanks again for Bitsavers...it has enabled me to do things that I simply would not have been able to do otherwise. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon May 4 09:50:56 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 16:50:56 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Bitsavers size in historical units In-Reply-To: <20090504113437.28D71BA51C3@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20090504113437.28D71BA51C3@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 May 2009, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Maybe I did not make myself clear enough. When I wrote > 100 Gigabytes, I meant 10**11 bytes, because as I see the archive with A factor like kilo or giga implies a base of 2 when used in conjunction with with bytes, basta! And I hate those babybytes - ehm - mebibytes and so on. Christian From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 4 09:58:59 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 10:58:59 -0400 Subject: Bitsavers size in historical units In-Reply-To: References: <20090504113437.28D71BA51C3@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <810C8E31-A439-4B2F-83CA-555BAD8C6297@neurotica.com> On May 4, 2009, at 10:50 AM, Christian Corti wrote: >> Maybe I did not make myself clear enough. When I wrote >> 100 Gigabytes, I meant 10**11 bytes, because as I see the archive >> with > > A factor like kilo or giga implies a base of 2 when used in > conjunction with with bytes, basta! And I hate those babybytes - > ehm - mebibytes and so on. You and me both. The people who came up with that need to be beaten severely. Then they need to find a hobby to take up their obvious excess of free time so they won't try something like this again. The other one that really gets me was the (thankfully short-lived) effort to replace the traditional "master/slave" ATA terminology with "master/subordinate", because some professionally offended person couldn't handle even the mention of the word "slave". -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From js at cimmeri.com Mon May 4 10:14:11 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 10:14:11 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820-II diskette formats In-Reply-To: References: , <49FD4DDB.9162.489D189@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <49FF0643.8010103@cimmeri.com> Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Sun, 3 May 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> The 820-II 8" samples in my library show 77*1*26*256 and 77*2*26*256 >> formats. > That's fairly conservative, but works out to almost a 1MB for the DSDD > diskettes. Most systems I'm familiar with formatted at 32 x 256 in DD > mode. What?! Using what controller chip? How that's even possible while maintaining the same 360rpm? jS From feldman.r at comcast.net Mon May 4 10:45:18 2009 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 15:45:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: FS: HP keyboards Message-ID: <739498280.4785641241451918224.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> >Message: 12 >Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 12:56:29 -0400 >From: "Steve Robertson" < steerex at ccvn.com > >Subject: FS: HP keyboards >Yo, >I've got some original HP keyboards that need a new home. The models are as follows: >I'd like to get a couple of dollars ($10) each plus shipping if anyone is interested? >They are located in western North Carolina. >See ya, >Steve Robertson Since you want a couple of dollars each, the $10 must be in binary. :) Bob From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 4 10:48:34 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 08:48:34 -0700 Subject: Xerox 820-II diskette formats In-Reply-To: <49FF0643.8010103@cimmeri.com> References: , , <49FF0643.8010103@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <49FEABE2.17175.9E14B25@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 May 2009 at 10:14, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > Steven Hirsch wrote: > > On Sun, 3 May 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> The 820-II 8" samples in my library show 77*1*26*256 and > >> 77*2*26*256 formats. > > That's fairly conservative, but works out to almost a 1MB for the > > DSDD diskettes. Most systems I'm familiar with formatted at 32 x > > 256 in DD mode. > What?! Using what controller chip? How that's even possible while > maintaining the same 360rpm? The only time I've ever seen 32x256 on an 8" track it's been with hard-sectored media. I do have a 30x256 8" format in my library (Lobo) but nothing more than that. OTOH, 16x512 is quite possible and used by several systems, including Tandy and Zenith. --Chuck From keithvz at verizon.net Mon May 4 11:09:58 2009 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 12:09:58 -0400 Subject: slightly OT: NMOS gate identification Message-ID: <49FF1356.8000309@verizon.net> I'm attempting a painful task of extracting logic from an image of a NMOS die manufactured in 1984. Initially, I'm only going after a small portion of logic from the chip. I have a block diagram which appears to roughly match the chip layout, a pinout, and an overall description of the logic. I have very little clue what I'm actually doing, but I'm trying to fix that. :) I'd like to develop a library of images of NMOS logic cells -- and perhaps using pattern matching later, try to automate the process. Does anyone here happen to know this stuff well enough to say, "there's a NOR", "there's an OR", "that's an inverter." etc? Anyone know the types of books I should be looking at to get this type of information? NMOS Chip fabrication? Much of what I've found talks about the actual process, but they normally show side-views of layers. I'm looking down on the chip through a few layers and need stuff from that perspective. I have a couple example shots here http://www.techtravels.org/snippet.jpg http://www.techtravels.org/snippet2.jpg Keith P.S. Yes, I know, I'm crazy. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon May 4 11:32:05 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 11:32:05 -0500 Subject: Bitsavers size in historical storage units In-Reply-To: <49FEFC82.40509@bitsavers.org> References: <20090503004654.A74EBBA5166@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <49FEFC82.40509@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <49FF1885.5030901@gmail.com> Al Kossow wrote: > Tim Shoppa wrote: >> I just noticed that the total size of the Bitsavers archive seems >> to have surpassed 100 Gigabytes in the past few days. > > It also went through the 15,000 pdf document mark in April. Anyone know how that compares to the number of books in a typical* library? * whatever that may be :-) I just can't really get my head around what volume of space it'd be if it were all printed out... From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon May 4 12:07:44 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 10:07:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bitsavers size in historical units In-Reply-To: <810C8E31-A439-4B2F-83CA-555BAD8C6297@neurotica.com> References: <20090504113437.28D71BA51C3@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <810C8E31-A439-4B2F-83CA-555BAD8C6297@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > > The other one that really gets me was the (thankfully short-lived) effort to > replace the traditional "master/slave" ATA terminology with > "master/subordinate", because some professionally offended person couldn't > handle even the mention of the word "slave". > I think someone eventually handed that guy a nice, steaming hot cup of STFU. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. OpenQM - A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://gpl.openqm.com - Get it _today_! From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 4 12:18:55 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 13:18:55 -0400 Subject: Bitsavers size in historical units In-Reply-To: References: <20090504113437.28D71BA51C3@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <810C8E31-A439-4B2F-83CA-555BAD8C6297@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On May 4, 2009, at 1:07 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> The other one that really gets me was the (thankfully short-lived) >> effort to replace the traditional "master/slave" ATA terminology >> with "master/subordinate", because some professionally offended >> person couldn't handle even the mention of the word "slave". >> > I think someone eventually handed that guy a nice, steaming hot cup > of STFU. :) ROFL! I suspect that was the case, yes. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 4 12:21:08 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 13:21:08 -0400 Subject: ZN428E chip need pinout In-Reply-To: <154601c9cb70$1da7ed50$b73c19bb@desktaba> References: <154601c9cb70$1da7ed50$b73c19bb@desktaba> Message-ID: On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 5:36 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> and is it available > > ? VERY hard to find. I have one stored here for years. What a shame. I went looking for that datasheet out of curiosity, and it looks like a really fun little chip, easy to use, etc. It would have been great to stuff on a C-64 or a PET as a trivial D-A. We built equivalent sorts of things like that from discrete components on the PET for music that was higher quality than just frobbing the CB2 clock (User Port sound). Pump out bits, let the hardware sum up the voltage, amplify and listen. There was a PC version called the "Disney Sound Source" from that brief era between silent PCs and the first "multimedia" games. I have one from testing games for Activision in the early 1990s. I've wanted a simple solution like the ZN428E for driving an analog meter from an 8-bit port. I rigged up a simple ladder D-A a couple of years back, but I didn't do anything about cumulative inaccuracy when, say, ramping from 0x7F to 0x80 (the needle would dip). Using an internal ladder (or R2R) network would be much more accurate than my lucky-dip and hand-sorting technique. It's a shame that it's an orphan now. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 4 12:27:41 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 13:27:41 -0400 Subject: Bitsavers size in historical units In-Reply-To: References: <20090504113437.28D71BA51C3@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <810C8E31-A439-4B2F-83CA-555BAD8C6297@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 1:18 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 4, 2009, at 1:07 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>> >>> The other one that really gets me was the (thankfully short-lived) effort >>> to replace the traditional "master/slave" ATA terminology with >>> "master/subordinate", because some professionally offended person couldn't >>> handle even the mention of the word "slave". >>> >> I think someone eventually handed that guy a nice, steaming hot cup of >> STFU. :) > > ?ROFL! ?I suspect that was the case, yes. :) Here's a contemporary word on the topic... I'm not sure where the concept originated, but I do recall hearing a complaint from a friend who worked for a University that they were considering going down the same path as Los Angeles County, but I don't remember if it was just at the (state) University level or across the whole state. There was at one point a large quantity of parody surrounding this. My favorite was to replace "master/slave" with "mistress/worm". -ethan From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon May 4 12:34:26 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 14:34:26 -0300 Subject: Bitsavers size in historical units References: <20090504113437.28D71BA51C3@mini-me.trailing-edge.com><810C8E31-A439-4B2F-83CA-555BAD8C6297@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <21ad01c9ccde$b2fb00d0$b73c19bb@desktaba> >>> The other one that really gets me was the (thankfully short-lived) >>> effort >>> to replace the traditional "master/slave" ATA terminology with >>> "master/subordinate", because some professionally offended person >>> couldn't >>> handle even the mention of the word "slave". >> I think someone eventually handed that guy a nice, steaming hot cup of >> STFU. :) I am very cautious of people who thinks this way. This seems to be a kind of mind problem, I have no words to express a shame I feel when I see people who think that a word or an expression should be banned or changed just because of it says something in another very different context. World is full of crazy people. People that cannot accept the fact there are other beliefs, and people who will fight (to the death!) for it. May I land in another planet, please? From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 4 12:56:56 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 10:56:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bitsavers size in historical storage units In-Reply-To: <49FF1885.5030901@gmail.com> References: <20090503004654.A74EBBA5166@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <49FEFC82.40509@bitsavers.org> <49FF1885.5030901@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 May 2009, Jules Richardson wrote: > Al Kossow wrote: >> Tim Shoppa wrote: >>> I just noticed that the total size of the Bitsavers archive seems >>> to have surpassed 100 Gigabytes in the past few days. >> >> It also went through the 15,000 pdf document mark in April. > > Anyone know how that compares to the number of books in a typical* library? > > * whatever that may be :-) I just can't really get my head around what volume > of space it'd be if it were all printed out... As books vary widely in size, and as many of the books on Bitsavers are from DEC 3-Ring binders it's fairly hard to give a good estimate. Having said that, I want to say that the Computer History section of the Conner-Bishop Historical Resource Center is about 24 feet in length and has over 1000 volumes. Many of books the CBHRC has are DEC 3-Ring Binders. The entire collection (not just the computer portion) is currently in storage while we are working to get a building. Zane From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon May 4 13:00:36 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 19:00:36 +0100 Subject: ZN428E chip need pinout In-Reply-To: References: <154601c9cb70$1da7ed50$b73c19bb@desktaba> Message-ID: <49FF2D44.5000807@philpem.me.uk> Ethan Dicks wrote: > There was a PC version called the > "Disney Sound Source" from that brief era between silent PCs and the > first "multimedia" games. I have one from testing games for > Activision in the early 1990s. There was also the Covox Speech Thing, which ISTR was basically the same thing. "Everyday Practical Electronics" magazine also published a design called the "EPE SounDAC" in 1996 (!) which was apparently very similar to the Covox, but I haven't seen the design for that. I did build an R-2R DAC for a laptop way-back-when, though... $DEITY knows what happened to the thing. > I've wanted a simple solution like the ZN428E for driving an analog > meter from an 8-bit port. There are other D/As with 8-bit inputs. If memory serves, Analog Devices make a couple of cheap 8-bit multiplying D/As with parallel inputs. You could also go down the route of running a couple of SPI D/As off an 8-bit port. Four-channel audio from a printer port, anyone? -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 4 13:18:22 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 14:18:22 -0400 Subject: ZN428E chip need pinout In-Reply-To: <49FF2D44.5000807@philpem.me.uk> References: <154601c9cb70$1da7ed50$b73c19bb@desktaba> <49FF2D44.5000807@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On May 4, 2009, at 2:00 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> I've wanted a simple solution like the ZN428E for driving an analog >> meter from an 8-bit port. > > There are other D/As with 8-bit inputs. If memory serves, Analog > Devices make a couple of cheap 8-bit multiplying D/As with parallel > inputs. Yeah, I was gonna say. There are oodles of them, and they're cheap and readily available. Does the ZN428E implement some special functionality that's hard to find? (I've not looked at the datasheet) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon May 4 13:08:20 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 13:08:20 -0500 Subject: ZN428E chip need pinout In-Reply-To: <49FF2D44.5000807@philpem.me.uk> References: <154601c9cb70$1da7ed50$b73c19bb@desktaba> <49FF2D44.5000807@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <49FF2F14.2010200@gmail.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> There was a PC version called the >> "Disney Sound Source" from that brief era between silent PCs and the >> first "multimedia" games. I have one from testing games for >> Activision in the early 1990s. > > There was also the Covox Speech Thing, which ISTR was basically the same > thing. "Everyday Practical Electronics" magazine also published a design > called the "EPE SounDAC" in 1996 (!) which was apparently very similar > to the Covox, but I haven't seen the design for that. I did build an > R-2R DAC for a laptop way-back-when, though... $DEITY knows what > happened to the thing. I did the ladder DAC route too, way back in the early days of adding trivial sound to PCs - then went with a ZN428E solution. IIRC various pieces of audio-playback software* supported them, along with a few games (I think Wolfenstein 3D was possibly one of the latter) * I think I found the ASCII-based schematic that I used bundled with one of them, actually. I can't remember if I still have the ZN428E board - I was terrible for building projects, using them for a while, then growing bored of them and salvaging all the useful components for other things :-) cheers Jules From jfoust at threedee.com Mon May 4 13:15:52 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 13:15:52 -0500 Subject: More broken Apples... In-Reply-To: <7EAAF892-A225-403D-BDFE-1D59E5C58CB0@microspot.co.uk> References: <7EAAF892-A225-403D-BDFE-1D59E5C58CB0@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090504131347.03cc79f0@mail.threedee.com> At 06:17 AM 5/4/2009, Roger Holmes wrote: >I agree with the confusion being bad. I do not agree with the rest. >Ease of learning is important if you only want to use a program a >couple of times. Ideally you do not want to learn anything, you want >to get a job done and move on and not have irrelevant facts hanging >around in your head for ever-more. Several times a year, I have the opportunity to teach someone about copy-and-paste under Windows. It may be common knowledge but it's not universal. I've literally had a client break down in tears when I've shown them, after they'd spent weeks retyping portions of documents. At 06:18 AM 5/4/2009, Roger Holmes wrote: >Does anyone here happen to have a copy of the original loose leaf >QuickDraw 3D manuals? Someone chucked out my copy at work thinking >they had been supeceeded, but they were far better than the later >documentation and still apply to the Quesa open source project I use >in my work. I probably do. I think I put them in deeper storage this winter. I may have unusual docs, too, as I received some from Apple when I was writing an article about it for Byte. - John From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 4 13:26:37 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 19:26:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Bitsavers size in historical units In-Reply-To: <810C8E31-A439-4B2F-83CA-555BAD8C6297@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at May 4, 9 10:58:59 am Message-ID: > You and me both. The people who came up with that need to be And me.... > beaten severely. Then they need to find a hobby to take up their > obvious excess of free time so they won't try something like this again. The stocks and/or pillory would seem to come in rather handy here :-) > > The other one that really gets me was the (thankfully short-lived) > effort to replace the traditional "master/slave" ATA terminology with > "master/subordinate", because some professionally offended person > couldn't handle even the mention of the word "slave". ARGH!!!. I assume they're not well-educated enough to want to rename 'servomechansisms' too... Let's hope they never get their hands on physics. They'd have a field day with the term for 'the spectrum of radiation emitted by a perfect absorber at temperature T' :-) -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 4 13:50:55 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 11:50:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bitsavers size in historical units In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090504114846.U32755@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 4 May 2009, Tony Duell wrote: > The stocks and/or pillory would seem to come in rather handy here :-) We might have to ship them over there. Such devices are very hard to find on this side of the pond, having been replaced by water-boards From ploopster at gmail.com Mon May 4 13:56:56 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 14:56:56 -0400 Subject: Bitsavers size in historical units In-Reply-To: References: <20090504113437.28D71BA51C3@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <810C8E31-A439-4B2F-83CA-555BAD8C6297@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <49FF3A78.7080307@gmail.com> Gene Buckle wrote: >> >> The other one that really gets me was the (thankfully short-lived) >> effort to replace the traditional "master/slave" ATA terminology with >> "master/subordinate", because some professionally offended person >> couldn't handle even the mention of the word "slave". >> > I think someone eventually handed that guy a nice, steaming hot cup of > STFU. :) Served with a side of clue-by-four, perhaps? Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 4 15:31:15 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 16:31:15 -0400 Subject: Bitsavers size in historical units In-Reply-To: <20090504114846.U32755@shell.lmi.net> References: <20090504114846.U32755@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <8371113D-A591-4451-8A77-A5DCE8BA2569@neurotica.com> On May 4, 2009, at 2:50 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> The stocks and/or pillory would seem to come in rather handy here :-) > > We might have to ship them over there. > Such devices are very hard to find on this side of the pond, having > been > replaced by water-boards ...and cube-farms... -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Mon May 4 15:48:45 2009 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 21:48:45 +0100 Subject: slightly OT: NMOS gate identification In-Reply-To: <49FF1356.8000309@verizon.net> References: <49FF1356.8000309@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1241470125.21081.3.camel@entasis> Have a look at http://www.flylogic.net/blog/ and, from there, http://www.flylogic.net/blog/?p=32 (At the risk of restarting the OT thread, note Jeri Ellsworth's contribution) LJW On Mon, 2009-05-04 at 12:09 -0400, Keith wrote: > I'm attempting a painful task of extracting logic from an image of a > NMOS die manufactured in 1984. Initially, I'm only going after a small > portion of logic from the chip. I have a block diagram which appears to > roughly match the chip layout, a pinout, and an overall description of > the logic. > > I have very little clue what I'm actually doing, but I'm trying to fix > that. :) > > I'd like to develop a library of images of NMOS logic cells -- and > perhaps using pattern matching later, try to automate the process. > > Does anyone here happen to know this stuff well enough to say, "there's > a NOR", "there's an OR", "that's an inverter." etc? > > Anyone know the types of books I should be looking at to get this type > of information? NMOS Chip fabrication? Much of what I've found talks > about the actual process, but they normally show side-views of layers. > I'm looking down on the chip through a few layers and need stuff from > that perspective. > > I have a couple example shots here > > http://www.techtravels.org/snippet.jpg > http://www.techtravels.org/snippet2.jpg > > Keith > > P.S. Yes, I know, I'm crazy. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Mon May 4 08:23:01 2009 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 08:23:01 -0500 Subject: home brew S-100 backplane project References: <2EF06AC781CF43AFB06CBFBFAE39E665@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <02ca01c9ccbb$73715e50$6400a8c0@acerd3c08b49af> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Lynch" To: Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 8:36 PM Subject: RE: home brew S-100 backplane project > > > [snip] >> >> Hi! The S-100 backplane PCBs have arrived. Please contact me if >> interested in getting one. Thanks and have a nice day! >> >> Andrew Lynch > [AJL>] > > Hi! I updated the N8VEM wiki with some pictures of the S-100 PCB and > construction so far. > > http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=S100 > > I've partially built one of the units for testing. I've gone as far as I > can > go but some parts are on back order. What is missing is the power > connector > (0.200" spaced headers male). My plan is to finish assembly and test the > active terminator section before installing the S-100 connectors. > > Some people have been concerned about availability of the S-100 connectors > but they are plentiful and relatively cheap. At Mouser you can get EDAC > parts which should work for $5 each. You can also substitute wire wrap > connectors which sometimes can be found on eBay for $3 each. I test > installed but did not solder some wire wrap S-100 connectors and they > should > work just fine. > > Thanks and have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch Great pictures! (Once I figured out that I had to use IE vs. Firefox.) I had forgotten how huge those connectors are. It has been a very long time since I worked on the unit that our personal computer club at Recognition Equipment put together... Charlie Carothers -- My email address is csquared3 at tx.rr.com From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon May 4 09:08:12 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 10:08:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? Message-ID: Title says it. I can only find them in Imagedisk format, but IMD does not recognize my Compaticard IV (why on earth does it restrict you to drives A-D??). Can someone help me out here? Steve -- From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon May 4 15:47:31 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 17:47:31 -0300 Subject: home brew S-100 backplane project References: <2EF06AC781CF43AFB06CBFBFAE39E665@andrewdesktop> <02ca01c9ccbb$73715e50$6400a8c0@acerd3c08b49af> Message-ID: <22fc01c9ccf9$f1841ce0$b73c19bb@desktaba> > Great pictures! (Once I figured out that I had to use IE vs. Firefox.) I Firefox worked ok here From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 4 16:02:31 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 14:02:31 -0700 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49FEF577.30435.B00B5E1@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 May 2009 at 10:08, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Title says it. I can only find them in Imagedisk format, but IMD does > not recognize my Compaticard IV (why on earth does it restrict you to > drives A-D??). > > Can someone help me out here? Yup, send me a private email. --Chuck From dave09 at dunfield.com Mon May 4 17:13:10 2009 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 17:13:10 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <693F2D4E6715@dunfield.com> > Title says it. I can only find them in Imagedisk format, but IMD does not > recognize my Compaticard IV (why on earth does it restrict you to drives > A-D??). Why on earth did IBM define the PC with only enough bits in the drive select/ motor on register for 4 drives ... A-D are the standard drives suspported by the hardware -- anything else needs "special drivers" and I'm just not going there... But you can get a full refund with the "DELETE" command so all is not lost. More good news! - The source code to ImageDisk is available for download from my site, so instead of complaining about it, you can put in however much time you think should have been put into supporting your special hardware yourself! Dave -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From keithvz at verizon.net Mon May 4 16:22:14 2009 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 17:22:14 -0400 Subject: slightly OT: NMOS gate identification In-Reply-To: <1241470125.21081.3.camel@entasis> References: <49FF1356.8000309@verizon.net> <1241470125.21081.3.camel@entasis> Message-ID: <49FF5C86.7070606@verizon.net> Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > Have a look at http://www.flylogic.net/blog/ and, from there, > http://www.flylogic.net/blog/?p=32 > > (At the risk of restarting the OT thread, note Jeri Ellsworth's > contribution) > > LJW The guy behind flylogic is a genius. And a heck of a nice guy too. I've read all his stuff. .....And I've seen Jeri's name everywhere. More and more lately. It's both awe-inspiring and sickening at the same time. :) Keith From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 4 16:36:38 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 14:36:38 -0700 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <693F2D4E6715@dunfield.com> References: , <693F2D4E6715@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <49FEFD76.9926.B1FF034@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 May 2009 at 17:13, Dave Dunfield wrote: > More good news! - The source code to ImageDisk is available for > download from my site, so instead of complaining about it, you can put > in however much time you think should have been put into supporting > your special hardware yourself! Good - someone can add support for the CompatiCard I and IBM PS/2 Diskette Adapter/A... --Chuck From js at cimmeri.com Mon May 4 16:52:51 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 16:52:51 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <693F2D4E6715@dunfield.com> References: <693F2D4E6715@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <49FF63B3.7030009@cimmeri.com> Dave Dunfield wrote: >> Title says it. I can only find them in Imagedisk format, but IMD does not >> recognize my Compaticard IV (why on earth does it restrict you to drives >> A-D??). >> > > Why on earth did IBM define the PC with only enough bits in the drive select/ > motor on register for 4 drives ... A-D are the standard drives suspported by > the hardware -- anything else needs "special drivers" and I'm just not going > there... But you can get a full refund with the "DELETE" command so all is > not lost. Yeah, and anyway, 4 drives ought to be more than enough for anybody! lol. jS From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 4 16:57:55 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 15:57:55 -0600 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <49FF63B3.7030009@cimmeri.com> References: <693F2D4E6715@dunfield.com> <49FF63B3.7030009@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <49FF64E3.2020704@jetnet.ab.ca> js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > > Dave Dunfield wrote: >>> Title says it. I can only find them in Imagedisk format, but IMD >>> does not recognize my Compaticard IV (why on earth does it restrict >>> you to drives A-D??). >>> >> >> Why on earth did IBM define the PC with only enough bits in the drive >> select/ >> motor on register for 4 drives ... A-D are the standard drives >> suspported by >> the hardware -- anything else needs "special drivers" and I'm just not >> going >> there... But you can get a full refund with the "DELETE" command so >> all is >> not lost. > > Yeah, and anyway, 4 drives ought to be more than enough for anybody! lol. With 180 KB per disk. :) > jS From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 4 17:09:51 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 15:09:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <49FF64E3.2020704@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <693F2D4E6715@dunfield.com> <49FF63B3.7030009@cimmeri.com> <49FF64E3.2020704@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20090504150908.L41954@shell.lmi.net> > > Yeah, and anyway, 4 drives ought to be more than enough for anybody! lol. On Mon, 4 May 2009, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > With 180 KB per disk. :) Prior to PC-DOS 2.00, it was 160K From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 4 17:17:41 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 15:17:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090504140354.X38253@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 4 May 2009, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Title says it. I can only find them in Imagedisk format, but IMD does not > recognize my Compaticard IV (why on earth does it restrict you to drives > A-D??). Yeah. "Why don't they include support for" my Vista 8" drive disk controller? my Maynard 8" drive disk controller? my Flagstaff Engineering 8" drive controller? my SVA 8" drive controller? My SCP 8" drive controller? my Micro-Tech 8" drive controller? my MM 8" drive controller? catweasel? Option board? trans-copy? turnover? . . . IMD does some nice stuff, but it just isn't always practical to support anything other than the stock, standardized hardware. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 4 17:34:43 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 15:34:43 -0700 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <20090504140354.X38253@shell.lmi.net> References: , <20090504140354.X38253@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <49FF0B13.32694.B551BA7@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 May 2009 at 15:17, Fred Cisin wrote: > "Why don't they include support for" my Vista 8" drive disk > controller? my Maynard 8" drive disk controller? my Flagstaff > Engineering 8" drive controller? my SVA 8" drive controller? My SCP > 8" drive controller? my Micro-Tech 8" drive controller? my MM 8" > drive controller? catweasel? Option board? trans-copy? turnover? . Why doesn't it run on my Sanyo MBC-550 or my Tandy 2000? Those have the original disk controllers in them and they run MS-DOS... --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 4 17:43:57 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 15:43:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <49FF0B13.32694.B551BA7@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20090504140354.X38253@shell.lmi.net> <49FF0B13.32694.B551BA7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20090504153744.X41954@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 4 May 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Why doesn't it run on my Sanyo MBC-550 or my Tandy 2000? Those have > the original disk controllers in them and they run MS-DOS... DEC Rainbow! NEC APC, Canon AS-100, Backpack, PC emulator on Amiga 1000, . . . Not trying to ridicule Steven or Dave; just pointing out that once you start adding/expanding there might not be a stopping point to that career From js at cimmeri.com Mon May 4 17:45:50 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 17:45:50 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <20090504140354.X38253@shell.lmi.net> References: <20090504140354.X38253@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <49FF701E.3090305@cimmeri.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > > Yeah. > "Why don't they include support for" my Vista 8" drive disk controller? > my Maynard 8" drive disk controller? my Flagstaff Engineering 8" drive > controller? my SVA 8" drive controller? My SCP 8" drive controller? my > Micro-Tech 8" drive controller? my MM 8" drive controller? catweasel? > Option board? trans-copy? turnover? . . . > > IMD does some nice stuff, but it just isn't always practical to support > anything other than the stock, standardized hardware. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com Good questions. But what I'm really wondering is why IMD doesn't provide a free interface that allows me to plug in my S-100 disk controller floppy cable to a special adapter that I can insert into the 3.5" floppy drive of my PC.. such that the PC can act as a virtual floppy drive for the S-100... kinda like those adapters that allow you use to plug in a CD player through your car's cassette stereo. Is it me, or is there just something wrong with that Dave Dunfield guy? Or are ALL Canadians like that?? jS From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 4 17:55:29 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 15:55:29 -0700 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <49FF701E.3090305@cimmeri.com> References: <20090504140354.X38253@shell.lmi.net> <49FF701E.3090305@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <49FF7261.3040802@bitsavers.org> js at cimmeri.com wrote: > Is it me, or is there just something wrong with that Dave Dunfield > guy? Or are ALL Canadians like that?? > Is there a full moon, or something? Dave wrote and documented something very useful while this group was contemplating their navels. Put this to rest, please. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 4 17:59:55 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 18:59:55 -0400 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <49FF7261.3040802@bitsavers.org> References: <20090504140354.X38253@shell.lmi.net> <49FF701E.3090305@cimmeri.com> <49FF7261.3040802@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On May 4, 2009, at 6:55 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > js at cimmeri.com wrote: > >> Is it me, or is there just something wrong with that Dave Dunfield >> guy? Or are ALL Canadians like that?? > > Is there a full moon, or something? > > Dave wrote and documented something very useful while this group was > contemplating their navels. > > Put this to rest, please. I think he was joking, Al. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 4 18:00:27 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 19:00:27 -0400 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <49FF7261.3040802@bitsavers.org> References: <20090504140354.X38253@shell.lmi.net> <49FF701E.3090305@cimmeri.com> <49FF7261.3040802@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On May 4, 2009, at 6:55 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> Is it me, or is there just something wrong with that Dave Dunfield >> guy? Or are ALL Canadians like that?? > > Is there a full moon, or something? > > Dave wrote and documented something very useful while this group was > contemplating their navels. ...and, for what it's worth, I only contemplate the navels of others! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon May 4 18:01:27 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 16:01:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <49FF7261.3040802@bitsavers.org> References: <20090504140354.X38253@shell.lmi.net> <49FF701E.3090305@cimmeri.com> <49FF7261.3040802@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 May 2009, Al Kossow wrote: > js at cimmeri.com wrote: > >> Is it me, or is there just something wrong with that Dave Dunfield guy? >> Or are ALL Canadians like that?? > > Is there a full moon, or something? $ pom The Moon is Waxing Gibbous (82% of Full) -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 4 18:06:15 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 16:06:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <49FF701E.3090305@cimmeri.com> References: <20090504140354.X38253@shell.lmi.net> <49FF701E.3090305@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <20090504160309.B44203@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 4 May 2009, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > Good questions. But what I'm really wondering is why IMD doesn't > provide a free interface that allows me to plug in my S-100 disk > controller floppy cable to a special adapter that I can insert into the > 3.5" floppy drive of my PC.. such that the PC can act as a virtual > floppy drive for the S-100... kinda like those adapters that allow you > use to plug in a CD player through your car's cassette stereo. I've seen some memory card readers that plug into a floppy drive! So, the idea might not be completely impossible. > Is it me, or is there just something wrong with that Dave Dunfield > guy? Or are ALL Canadians like that?? Sarcasm isn't always obvious in email. I wish that there were more like Dave! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From js at cimmeri.com Mon May 4 18:20:23 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 18:20:23 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: References: <20090504140354.X38253@shell.lmi.net> <49FF701E.3090305@cimmeri.com> <49FF7261.3040802@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <49FF7837.3070101@cimmeri.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 4, 2009, at 6:55 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >> Put this to rest, please. > > I think he was joking, Al. > > -Dave Yes, I was completely joking. Didn't think to put in a ;-) as I figured what I wrote was ridiculous enough to make that obvious. jS From lynchaj at yahoo.com Mon May 4 18:20:53 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 19:20:53 -0400 Subject: home brew S-100 backplane project Message-ID: [snip] > > Thanks and have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch Great pictures! (Once I figured out that I had to use IE vs. Firefox.) I had forgotten how huge those connectors are. It has been a very long time since I worked on the unit that our personal computer club at Recognition Equipment put together... Charlie Carothers -- -----REPLY----- Hi! Thanks! My hope is that this S-100 backplane will be a successful project and make available a tool that S-100 hobbyists can use to develop new peripherals and/or test and repair the ones they already have. The ideal persons for this prototype phase would be those with experience in building home brew S-100 systems and can identify and resolve issues with the backplane, suggest improvements, etc. There is very little S-100 development going on anymore so there appears to be a dearth of tools available such as backplanes, prototyping boards, power supplies, etc. Some new parts are needed, I think, for even the most basic repairs without using the legacy systems. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 4 18:23:34 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 16:23:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <693F2D4E6715@dunfield.com> References: <693F2D4E6715@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20090504162309.R44203@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 4 May 2009, Dave Dunfield wrote: > More good news! - The source code to ImageDisk is available for download from > my site, so instead of complaining about it, you can put in however much time > you think should have been put into supporting your special hardware yourself! Thank you! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Mon May 4 18:25:28 2009 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 19:25:28 -0400 Subject: Transistors... In-Reply-To: <20090429114702.Q13340@shell.lmi.net> References: <0KIU006D8C8TGARD@vms173007.mailsrvcs.net> <0KIU006D8C8TGARD@vms173007.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20090504191815.04cba200@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Fred Cisin may have mentioned these words: >On Tue, 28 Apr 2009, Allison wrote: > > Common base transistor has current gain of .99999.. and voltage gain >1 as > > well as power gain. Wire is .9999999.. for all those. > >Is common wire really THAT close (.9999999..) to 1.0? >I always assumed that wire losses were more than that. >Or does that require superconductors? Way too many variables to say for sure... diameter / gauge of the wire, length, composition, use of alien manufacturing techniques, etc. would need to be known to fully and accurately known to even guesstimate let alone measure the gane to 7 places... Depending on your point of view, for me to say such things is indicative of either too much tequila... or not enough. ;-) Either way, I'm just happy to have my mailserver within arms reach again! Laterz, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Mon May 4 18:35:17 2009 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 19:35:17 -0400 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <49FF0B13.32694.B551BA7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20090504140354.X38253@shell.lmi.net> <20090504140354.X38253@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20090504192908.050a4768@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Chuck Guzis may have mentioned these words: >On 4 May 2009 at 15:17, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > "Why don't they include support for" my Vista 8" drive disk > > controller? my Maynard 8" drive disk controller? my Flagstaff > > Engineering 8" drive controller? my SVA 8" drive controller? My SCP > > 8" drive controller? my Micro-Tech 8" drive controller? my MM 8" > > drive controller? catweasel? Option board? trans-copy? turnover? . > >Why doesn't it run on my Sanyo MBC-550 or my Tandy 2000? Those have >the original disk controllers in them and they run MS-DOS... with non-standard bios's's's's and memory maps. Having used both but owned neither (but I knew where a T2000 sat never used about 9 years ago... the store owner still wanted $795.00 for it) -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch at 30below.com | From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Mon May 4 19:01:42 2009 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 20:01:42 -0400 Subject: Wacko Canucks (was: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <49FF701E.3090305@cimmeri.com> References: <20090504140354.X38253@shell.lmi.net> <20090504140354.X38253@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20090504193826.036dcf40@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that js at cimmeri.com may have mentioned these words: >Is it me, or is there just something wrong with that Dave Dunfield >guy? Or are ALL Canadians like that?? I'll have you know, that I'm one of those dumb Americans (who still says the Pledge of Allegiance - I must be wacko!)... {/me turns head 180 degrees (somewhat painfully, I guess I could use a bonecruncher session soon) and looks at the skyline of a very old, yet regal Canadian city out my northern window... } It seems I live close enough to Canada that even I might take offence to that statement... :-O [[ Yes, I say 'Eh?' on a regular basis! ]] OK, maybe not quite, but you may not realize that you're talking about an individual who; with a desire to own his own personal computer *designed & built* it, then *wrote* his own operating system for it in assembly language... makes me *wish* I was a Canadian (or American, or any other nationality) like him! ;-) Laterz, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon May 4 19:26:03 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 19:26:03 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <20090504150908.L41954@shell.lmi.net> References: <693F2D4E6715@dunfield.com> <49FF63B3.7030009@cimmeri.com> <49FF64E3.2020704@jetnet.ab.ca> <20090504150908.L41954@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <49FF879B.8080700@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Yeah, and anyway, 4 drives ought to be more than enough for anybody! lol. > > On Mon, 4 May 2009, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> With 180 KB per disk. :) > > Prior to PC-DOS 2.00, it was 160K Hmm, 4 drives at 160K is 640K, and we all know that's more than enough for anybody... From chd_1 at nktelco.net Mon May 4 20:15:28 2009 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 21:15:28 -0400 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? In-Reply-To: References: <49FC8B73.4060605@softjar.se> Message-ID: <49FF9330.4060903@nktelco.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 2, 2009, at 2:05 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> Funny that noone else around seems to be able to answer. I thought >> there were atleast some people with experience from older systems >> around. :-) > > I'd say this was a pretty esoteric issue. ;) I've done tons of > stuff with OS/8, going back to when I was about 16 (24 years ago, > ugh!) but have never run across this. > > Now, I finally got an ASR-33 a few weeks ago, and I want to connect > it to a PDP-8, so I might have to think about this some more! :) > > -Dave > Disclaimer... I struggled through this myself and this is how I understand it. Comments and corrections are welcome. First, the BUILD.SV utility is both a tool to change the OS configuration and a record of the configuration. Typically, BUILD.SV will contain the original configuration of the system. Changes are made by RUNing and then SAVEing new versions of the configuration. Danger! Danger! Will Robinson... If the BUILD.SV image does not match your running configuration, you will destroy your current OS configuration and make the system unbootable. I would use RESORC /E to determine the current configuration then make sure it matches what you see from BUILD. The following is a transcript of taking a system configuration saved in BLDDMO.SV and adding a non-system TD8E handler. I will insert comments with a #. # Start BUILD containing the current configuration. Make sure to use RUN because # that lets you save it when you are done. .RUN SYS BLDDMO.SV # Print the configuration # Handlers in the BUILD image are listed. Handlers that will be included in the OS # are marked with *. $PR RK8E: SYS RKA0 RKB0 RK05: *RKA0 *RKB0 *RKA1 *RKB1 LPSV: LPT PT8E: PTP PTR DUMP: *DUMP COM : RTS8 RX02: *RXA0 *RXA1 RX8E: *SYS KL8E: *TTY DSK=RX02:RXA0 CORE= 6 # First the handler must be loaded into the BUILD image using LOAD. The drive must # already exist in .BN format on the SYS device. $LOAD TD8EA.BN # Now the TD8E handler is available, but will not be installed in the OS. $PR RK8E: SYS RKA0 RKB0 RK05: *RKA0 *RKB0 *RKA1 *RKB1 LPSV: LPT PT8E: PTP PTR DUMP: *DUMP COM : RTS8 RX02: *RXA0 *RXA1 RX8E: *SYS KL8E: *TTY TD8A: DTA0 DTA1 DSK=RX02:RXA0 CORE= 6 # Now the handler is added to the OS that will be built. $INSERT TD8A,DTA0 # Note the * in front of DTA0. $PR RK8E: SYS RKA0 RKB0 RK05: *RKA0 *RKB0 *RKA1 *RKB1 LPSV: LPT PT8E: PTP PTR DUMP: *DUMP COM : RTS8 RX02: *RXA0 *RXA1 RX8E: *SYS KL8E: *TTY TD8A: *DTA0 DTA1 DSK=RX02:RXA0 CORE= 6 # Now add DECTape drive 1 $INSERT TD8A,DTA1 # This is the point when the new OS is written to the SYS device using the devices that are # in the configuration. $BOOTSTRAP SYS BUILT # Now save the configuration. I used the same name that I started with. Change the # name if you want to have the old configuration available. .SAVE SYS BLDDMO.SV # At this point I am not sure if the new system is in operation or not. # I usually halt and then reboot. # After a reboot. # The TD8E is now available. .RESORC /E 23 FILES IN 371 BLOCKS 561 FREE BLOCKS (3 EMPTIES) # NAME TYPE MODE SIZ BLK KIND U V ENT USER 01 SYS RX02 RWF 988 SYS 0 M 07 02 DSK RX02 RWF 988 20+ 32 03 RKA0 RK8E RWF 3248 16 RK05 0 A 20 04 RKB0 RK8E RWF 3248 16 RK05 0 A 21 05 RKA1 RK8E RWF 3248 16 RK05 1 A 22 06 RKB1 RK8E RWF 3248 16 RK05 1 A 23 07 DUMP DUMP W 17+ C 176 10 RXA0 RX02 RWF 988 20+ 32 11 RXA1 RX02 RWF 988 20+ 36 12 TTY TTY RW 21+ KL8E E 176 13 DTA0 TD8E RWF 737 22+ TD8 0 D 10 14 DTA1 TD8E RWF 737 22+ TD8 1 D 14 FREE DEVICE SLOTS: 03, FREE BLOCK SLOTS: 03 OS/8 V3T . Thats all there is to it. A TTY handler will already be present, so that will have to be removed before it can be replaced. DELETE removes the handler from the configuration. UNLOAD completely deletes the handler from the BUILD image. The OS/8 Handbook is your friend. Start at page 2-34. -chuck From dave09 at dunfield.com Mon May 4 22:02:34 2009 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 22:02:34 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <20090504160309.B44203@shell.lmi.net> References: <49FF701E.3090305@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <6A4814116452@dunfield.com> Wow - a surprising amount of response for what I thought was a small and simple point (ok - so I wasn't QUITE as subtle as I could have been :-) I recall Chuck G. one time mentioning something along the lines of having had more crap about TeleDisk over the years then he cared for (sorry - don't have the exact quote handy), and I must say I completely understand what he was talking about - I do get a lot of very positive and encouraging correspondance about ImageDisk, but I also get strange and incomprehensible "feedback" ... some people seem angry that my free utility does not do something they want to do (in most cases accompanied by a fundamental lack of understanding about the hardware limitations, real standards, and the "unpleasentness" in attemptng to perform these functions under "modern" operating environments). I've even gotten complaints that ImageDisk has "too much" documentation. You really can't please all of the people all of the time. So please do forgive me if I get my "back up" about comments like "why on earth didn't you support my custom hardware"... I've never owned or even seen a Compaticard of any flavor ... If the four standard drives don't cut it for you, you can use an alternate standard controller (I allow any address)... Or use the system I use which is bring the 'B' interface out to a 36-pin 'D' connector on the back, with cables and adapters to allow you to connect pretty much any drive you like. I've documented this in a fair bit of detail on my pages - it works really well! Or - as noted earlier, you can change the program to "do what you want". Btw - if you really want a "TeleDisk" image, by all means write a converter. I don't promote TeleDisk because NTI and Chuck have openly asked that it be retired --- but I've documented the TeleDisk archive format to the best detail that I have been able to uncover, and I've provided tools to translate TeleDisk to ImageDisk - and tools which manipulate ImageDisk files ... It should not be a terribly difficult job to write a converter to go the other way - the information is available... >> Good questions. But what I'm really wondering is why IMD doesn't >> provide a free interface that allows me to plug in my S-100 disk >> controller floppy cable to a special adapter that I can insert into the >> 3.5" floppy drive of my PC.. such that the PC can act as a virtual >> floppy drive for the S-100... kinda like those adapters that allow you >> use to plug in a CD player through your car's cassette stereo. > >I've seen some memory card readers that plug into a floppy drive! >So, the idea might not be completely impossible. Indeed it should be quite possible - I've thought about it, but I just don't have time or pressing need (My main interest in in long- term archiving of representative images of original media, with an emphasis on detailing the archive formats so that the ability to extract usable data from those images will not be lost "no matter what"). But why wait for me to do it ... The ImageDisk archive format is openly documented and has been placed in the public domain. Sample code to manipulate those archives has been made available. If you want a Hardware Virtual Drive that works with ImageDisk images - then by all means, build one. It would be an interesting project, and given that similar devices have already been done, definately not impossible. An even simpler approach might be to use IMDU to reformat the image into a raw binary file - I haven't looked at them, but I would guess that at least some of the Hardware Virtual Drives that have already been done can already work with a raw binary image. Or write a tool to reformat the image into whatever archive format is required by the HVD. Everything I've done has been made available - if you want the torch carried faster or further - please pick it up and run! >> Is it me, or is there just something wrong with that Dave Dunfield >> guy? Or are ALL Canadians like that?? You bet Eh? We've been clubbed over the head with hockey sticks so much that we are all unreasonble hosers... For fun we grab our chainsaws and kill trees... (Ok, I did happen spend a few hours behind a saw this afternoon, but I was for the most part clearing deadwood which as is hinted at by the name ... was already dead). >> More good news! - The source code to ImageDisk is available for download from >> my site, so instead of complaining about it, you can put in however much time >> you think should have been put into supporting your special hardware yourself! > >Thank you! Actually, it's been posted for quite a long time - well over a year. Some of you may recall a while back when I took a fair bit of flak here in this list because I didn't want to post the sources until I felt the system was through the bulk of it's initial development and fairly stable. Various people insisted that the program was "useless" without them, and talked about modifications and enhancements that they wanted to be able to do. Since posting the sources, I've not seen one shred of evidence that anyone has done anything with them. I've not seen any enhanced or modified versions, submissions, bug fixes or any other indications ... I don't know what happened to all the people who so desperately needed them - perhaps their navels are just TOO interesting... (thanks AL). Dave -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 4 21:32:41 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 19:32:41 -0700 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <6A4814116452@dunfield.com> References: <49FF701E.3090305@cimmeri.com>, <20090504160309.B44203@shell.lmi.net>, <6A4814116452@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <49FF42D9.28875.C2EFC44@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 May 2009 at 22:02, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Wow - a surprising amount of response for what I thought was a small > and simple point (ok - so I wasn't QUITE as subtle as I could have > been :-) You know, Dave, there's a certain double-standard regarding software. No one seems to care that Windows hasn't supported secondary (or tertiary) floppy controllers since Windows NT (I suppose a case might be made for Windows 9x using real-mode drivers). Or for that matter, the Rancho parallel-port floppy, or (fill in the blank). M$ says "we ain't gonna do more than 2, even if you got 4 floppies on a primary controller" and everyone says okey-dokey. But the fact that you don't support all configurations for a controller that hasn't been made for, what, a decade?--seems to bother folks. It sometimes seems that we're all just a bunch of chimpanzees throwing stuff around. And mostly male chimpanzees at that. Thanks for ImageDisk--I've tried it and found it easy to use. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Mon May 4 21:40:50 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 20:40:50 -0600 Subject: Beehive DM5 and Teletype Model 43 terminals Message-ID: Got some manuals recently: - Technical User Manual for Beehive DM5 Family of Video Display Terminals Looks interesting, although I've never seen one in person. An interesting feature is that it provides an escape sequence to download 8085 binary code directly into the terminal (as ASCII hex digit sequences). I'm wondering what it would take to load a space invaders game into it :-). Has anyone ever seen a Beehive DM5 display terminal? - Service Manual for Teletype Model 43 teleprinter Parts list, schematics, troubleshooting procedures, mechanical assembly drawings, etc. Basically, this is everything you ever needed for the Model 43 Teletype. If someone needs this scanned in order to diagnose a problem, let me know. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue May 5 00:16:22 2009 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 22:16:22 -0700 Subject: Chips that changed the world In-Reply-To: <218884.52142.qm@web65513.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <218884.52142.qm@web65513.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Was their something special about the 2K boot ROMS beyond the fact that the 2K was a weird 186 machine to begin with? Anyway, I would have put a high speed comparator and an ADC on the list. On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 12:23 PM, Chris M wrote: > stupid list doesn't even include the Tandy 2000 boot roms. Please don't waster my time w/useless links in the future Rich. K? > > > > > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue May 5 00:28:49 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 22:28:49 -0700 Subject: Apple II swift board (was: More broken Apples...) In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Mon, 04 May 2009 07:01:07 -0700. Message-ID: Hi It was just that little board. It took over the Apple IIe and even had its own disk format. 16K bytes is a lot of Forth code. Dwight ---------------------------------------- > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > From: legalize at xmission.com > Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 08:48:05 -0600 > Subject: Re: Apple II swift board (was: More broken Apples...) > > Based on the picture, it looks just like a ROM and a couple other > chips. > > I guess I'm not seeing how this little ROM amounts to such a big > change in the way the Apple //e works. Did it also include a > diskette? If so, what was on it? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail? goes with you. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Mobile1_052009 From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon May 4 16:11:09 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 17:11:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Xerox 820-II diskette formats In-Reply-To: <49FF0643.8010103@cimmeri.com> References: , <49FD4DDB.9162.489D189@cclist.sydex.com> <49FF0643.8010103@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 May 2009, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > > Steven Hirsch wrote: >> On Sun, 3 May 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> The 820-II 8" samples in my library show 77*1*26*256 and 77*2*26*256 >>> formats. >> That's fairly conservative, but works out to almost a 1MB for the DSDD >> diskettes. Most systems I'm familiar with formatted at 32 x 256 in DD >> mode. > What?! Using what controller chip? How that's even possible while > maintaining the same 360rpm? Too early in the day... Just checked the sources for the formatter, and it's 30 256-byte sectors per track not 32. -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon May 4 16:14:01 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 17:14:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: slightly OT: NMOS gate identification In-Reply-To: <49FF1356.8000309@verizon.net> References: <49FF1356.8000309@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 May 2009, Keith wrote: > I'm attempting a painful task of extracting logic from an image of a NMOS die > manufactured in 1984. Initially, I'm only going after a small portion of > logic from the chip. I have a block diagram which appears to roughly match > the chip layout, a pinout, and an overall description of the logic. How many metal levels? If you can reduce it to shapes on levels, an LVS tool is theoretically capable of deriving the netlist. Will still be a lot of work and good tools don't come cheap. -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon May 4 17:23:57 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 18:23:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <20090504140354.X38253@shell.lmi.net> References: <20090504140354.X38253@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 May 2009, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 4 May 2009, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> Title says it. I can only find them in Imagedisk format, but IMD does not >> recognize my Compaticard IV (why on earth does it restrict you to drives >> A-D??). My original question is still unanswered: Where can I find the Xerox system diskettes in Teldisk format? If anyone can help out with this, I'd be appreciative. -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon May 4 17:28:35 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 18:28:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <49FF64E3.2020704@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <693F2D4E6715@dunfield.com> <49FF63B3.7030009@cimmeri.com> <49FF64E3.2020704@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 May 2009, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> Dave Dunfield wrote: >>>> Title says it. I can only find them in Imagedisk format, but IMD does >>>> not recognize my Compaticard IV (why on earth does it restrict you to >>>> drives A-D??). >>>> >>> >>> Why on earth did IBM define the PC with only enough bits in the drive >>> select/ motor on register for 4 drives ... A-D are the standard drives >>> suspported by the hardware -- anything else needs "special drivers" >>> and I'm just not going there... But you can get a full refund with the >>> "DELETE" command so all is not lost. What on earth led you to believe that I expect you to create a special driver? Or, for that matter, that I was complaining about Imagedisk? I was puzzled about why it wouldn't let me select anything above drive D. Sorry you took it the wrong way. Now, back to our regularly scheduled program: Can anyone supply me with Teledisk encoded images of the Xerox system diskettes? Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon May 4 18:00:48 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 19:00:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <20090504153744.X41954@shell.lmi.net> References: , <20090504140354.X38253@shell.lmi.net> <49FF0B13.32694.B551BA7@cclist.sydex.com> <20090504153744.X41954@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 May 2009, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Why doesn't it run on my Sanyo MBC-550 or my Tandy 2000? Those have >> the original disk controllers in them and they run MS-DOS... > > Not trying to ridicule Steven or Dave; just pointing out that once you > start adding/expanding there might not be a stopping point to that career > I can only conclude that I've caught folks on a bad day, but let me set everyone straight: - I was not complaining about Imagedisk. I think it's a great program. - I couldn't figure out why it wouldn't let me specify a drive higher than D. That's the extent of my concern. I just wanted to take a shot at seeing if it would talk to the Compaticard FDC. It won't. I'm dealing with it. Now that I know it doesn't support anything but the NEC 765, I'll have to build an adapter to connect the 8" drive to the internal floppy controller. Not a big deal, honestly, can we stop with the lecturing and sarcasm, please? If my prior request sounds reasonable, then I have an on-point question: I have read the Imagedisk docs and looked at the on-screen help, but cannot see any obvious way to tell it that an 8" drive is attached. Specifically, the FDC test program has options only for BIOS recognized drives, 1.2M, 1.4M and, I think, one other. What tells it there's an 8" drive out there? Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon May 4 19:13:01 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 20:13:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <20090504162309.R44203@shell.lmi.net> References: <693F2D4E6715@dunfield.com> <20090504162309.R44203@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 May 2009, Fred Cisin wrote: >> More good news! - The source code to ImageDisk is available for download from >> my site, so instead of complaining about it, you can put in however much time >> you think should have been put into supporting your special hardware yourself! Dave, There is no reason to turn on the hot and cold running nastiness and sarcasm. I really thought you were above this sort of behavior. I WAS NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT THE APPLICATION OR YOUR SUPPORT OF IT. HOW MUCH CLEARER CAN I MAKE THIS? If you are LOOKING for a confrontation, you've come to the wrong place. Since things have gone so sour here, I would request that anyone who can produce the Teledisk versions of the Xerox system diskettes simply contact me privately. If these cannot be found, I'll put an adapter together and use Imagedisk SINCE I HAVE NO, NONE, NADA, ZIP problem with the program AND DO NOT EXPECT (AND HAVE NEVER EXPECTED) ANY HANDHOLDING OR SPECIAL SUPPORT. Steve -- From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 5 01:00:11 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 23:00:11 -0700 Subject: Beehive DM5 and Teletype Model 43 terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49FF737B.5667.CECF811@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 May 2009 at 20:40, Richard wrote: > Looks interesting, although I've never seen one in person. An > interesting feature is that it provides an escape sequence to > download 8085 binary code directly into the terminal (as ASCII hex > digit sequences). I'm wondering what it would take to load a space > invaders game into it :-). I don't think that was at all unusual. When I did the mono terminal for Fortune, they requested the feature so they could do QA on the terminal without opening it up. Wrote a bunch of diagnostics that were downloaded as part of the manufacturing process. Basically, an Intel hex binary file with each record prefixed by an (undocumented) escape sequence. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue May 5 03:27:41 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 04:27:41 -0400 Subject: Beehive DM5 and Teletype Model 43 terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > - Service Manual for Teletype Model 43 teleprinter > > ? ? ? ?Parts list, schematics, troubleshooting procedures, mechanical > ? ? ? ?assembly drawings, etc. ?Basically, this is everything you ever needed > ? ? ? ?for the Model 43 Teletype. ?If someone needs this scanned in order to > ? ? ? ?diagnose a problem, let me know. There are already lots of Teletype docs scanned by the Greenkeys bunch. Make sure you are not rescanning the scanned. -- Will From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue May 5 03:56:00 2009 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 09:56:00 +0100 Subject: Beehive DM5 and Teletype Model 43 terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <62AEBEAB6F9143A9A3420A06A9ADD5AD@EDIConsultingLtd.local> Anybody know where you can get ribbons for a Teletype Model 43? Regards Rod Smallwood I collect and restore old computer equipment with this logo. -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli Sent: 05 May 2009 09:28 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Beehive DM5 and Teletype Model 43 terminals > - Service Manual for Teletype Model 43 teleprinter > > ? ? ? ?Parts list, schematics, troubleshooting procedures, mechanical > ? ? ? ?assembly drawings, etc. ?Basically, this is everything you ever needed > ? ? ? ?for the Model 43 Teletype. ?If someone needs this scanned in order to > ? ? ? ?diagnose a problem, let me know. There are already lots of Teletype docs scanned by the Greenkeys bunch. Make sure you are not rescanning the scanned. -- Will From halarewich at gmail.com Tue May 5 05:02:12 2009 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 03:02:12 -0700 Subject: Beehive DM5 and Teletype Model 43 terminals In-Reply-To: <62AEBEAB6F9143A9A3420A06A9ADD5AD@EDIConsultingLtd.local> References: <62AEBEAB6F9143A9A3420A06A9ADD5AD@EDIConsultingLtd.local> Message-ID: <6d6501090905050302u573783d6y80a712867e293f7b@mail.gmail.com> try here $8.99 each min 6 so bout 54 bucks http://www.patriotimaging.com/product.asp?id=7425 On 5/5/09, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > Anybody know where you can get ribbons for a Teletype Model 43? > > > Regards > > Rod Smallwood > > > > I collect and restore old computer equipment with this logo. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of William Donzelli > Sent: 05 May 2009 09:28 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Beehive DM5 and Teletype Model 43 terminals > > > - Service Manual for Teletype Model 43 teleprinter > > > > Parts list, schematics, troubleshooting procedures, mechanical > > assembly drawings, etc. Basically, this is everything you ever > needed > > for the Model 43 Teletype. If someone needs this scanned in order > to > > diagnose a problem, let me know. > > There are already lots of Teletype docs scanned by the Greenkeys > bunch. Make sure you are not rescanning the scanned. > > -- > Will > > From dave09 at dunfield.com Tue May 5 06:48:01 2009 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 06:48:01 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: References: <20090504153744.X41954@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <6C29287F4D31@dunfield.com> >>>> (why on earth does it restrict you to drives A-D??). >What on earth led you to believe that I expect you to create a special >driver? Or, for that matter, that I was complaining about Imagedisk? That would be the use of the term "why on earth" - typically used in the context of things thought to be unreasonable, and the mention of "restrict" which suggests that you believed this to be an artifical limitation. >I was puzzled about why it wouldn't let me select anything above drive D. >Sorry you took it the wrong way. How about "Why does it only support drives A-D?" That would have gotten you a response detailing the standard floppy hardware for a PC ... I should also note that the PC only officially supports *2* drives (A and B) - which is what ImageDisk originally supported - someone in the list pointed out to me that several controllers extend this to support 4 drives using unused bits in the PC drive select/ motor-on register which "has room for" 4 drives in a logical extension. Seemed reasonable to me so I added support for this extension (there's a note in my docs that most controllers don't support 4 drives however). Sadly I've got more and more machines these days with hardware supporting only 1 floppy drive ... and couple which support none. >My original question is still unanswered: >Where can I find the Xerox system diskettes in Teldisk format? >If anyone can help out with this, I'd be appreciative. I believe Chuck G. has already responded with an indication that he can help. >If my prior request sounds reasonable, then I have an on-point question: > >I have read the Imagedisk docs and looked at the on-screen help, but >cannot see any obvious way to tell it that an 8" drive is attached. >Specifically, the FDC test program has options only for BIOS recognized >drives, 1.2M, 1.4M and, I think, one other. What tells it there's an 8" >drive out there? ImageDisk does not know or care about "Drive Type" - it completely ignores the BIOS settings (and manipulate the FDC directly - not through BIOS). The factors which differentiate one type of drive from another are the rotational speed, data rate and number of sides/cylinders - Rotational speed is based on hardware and is largely transparent to the program (with the caveat that it affects the number of sectors that can be placed on media at a given data rate) - ImageDisk has many options to pick and translate data rates and sides/cylinders. In other words, ImageDisk does not "know" what type of drive you have, you do. - So you need to pick an appropriate settings to accomodate the drive and media you are using - yes, it requires the user to know more about what you are doing, but the upside is that ImageDisk can handle any type of drive/media that the PC controller can talk to (even formats that were never made but could theoretically exist). I've encounteded enough "weird stuff" over the years that I decided to make ImageDisk work to the limits of the PC floppy design, not physical/known drive types. I have placed a fair bit of detail in my documentation describing the various common drive types and parameters and how they are related. The good news is that in 99.9% of cases, you don't need to worry about it much - the Automatic settings of ImageDisk do a very good job of figuring out how to read whatever type of media is in whatever type of drive you have. Recreating a disk is only slightly more complex, the recording settings are included in the archive file - you need to pick single or double step (mainly to accomdate 40/80 track drives) and may need to set a data-rate translation if you are recreating the disk on a different type of drive than the one it was recorded with. This too is covered in my documentation. TESTFDC was designed as a tool to evaluate the abilities of a PC's FDC system - It looks at the BIOS settings to determine the data rate and speed of the drive (you can override this if you like), and thereafter talks to the drive directly (same code as ImageDisk). I envisioned that people would use this to evaluate a PC before they started attaching drives to it, so I did not go to the bother of making a special case for 8" drives which are not supported by (or configurable within) BIOS - The idea is that you test PCs with it's standard drives, then pick one which passes and turn it into an ImageDisk machine ... 3.5" HD or 5.25" HD drives will test the 500kbps data rate used by 8" drives ... if it passes the desired functionality with these drives you should be good to go. -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 5 08:44:08 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 07:44:08 -0600 Subject: Beehive DM5 and Teletype Model 43 terminals In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 05 May 2009 09:56:00 +0100. <62AEBEAB6F9143A9A3420A06A9ADD5AD@EDIConsultingLtd.local> Message-ID: In article <62AEBEAB6F9143A9A3420A06A9ADD5AD at EDIConsultingLtd.local>, "Rod Smallwood" writes: > Anybody know where you can get ribbons for a Teletype Model 43? Check the archives; I posted an online supplier claiming to have stock for these recently. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 5 08:45:07 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 07:45:07 -0600 Subject: Apple II swift board (was: More broken Apples...) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 04 May 2009 22:28:49 -0700. Message-ID: In article , dwight elvey writes: > It was just that little board. It took over > the Apple IIe and even had its own disk format. > 16K bytes is a lot of Forth code. > Dwight What was in it? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 5 09:05:45 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 07:05:45 -0700 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <6C29287F4D31@dunfield.com> References: <20090504153744.X41954@shell.lmi.net>, , <6C29287F4D31@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <49FFE549.1152.EA98667@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 May 2009 at 6:48, Dave Dunfield wrote: > How about "Why does it only support drives A-D?" Well, I think Dave did A-D mostly for notational convenience. In fact, without any specific DOS mapping information, it might be more accurate to say "Port 3Fx, units 0-3", but that would really confuse the users. It's not the CompatiCard per se, (it's pretty neutral in terms of hardware), but adding controllers not on the primary port of 3Fx and DMA 2, IRQ 6. It's a little complicated as you may have to share IRQs and DMAs. FWIW, DOS does not provide a reliable way of figuring out what dirve letters are associated with what controller once you get above B:. Given the number of secondary FDCs out there (or lack of them) I don't blame Dave. Nor do I blame him for not including Backpack drive support. Speaking of adding floppy drives, one can sometimes find controllers that can be modified to handle more than 2 drives (several of ISA SCSI controllers, for example used the National DP8473 FDC (a great FDC, by the way that even formats and writes 128 byte MFM sectors, as well as FM), which allows for driving up to 4 drives--a little jumpering to the floppy header is often all that's required. Some older Pentium-era motherboard "Super I/O" chips can likewise be modified to handle more than two drives. So if you can't find a Compaticard, you're not out of luck. While programs such as ImageDIsk don't require software to access these extra drives, the motherboard BIOS doesn't usually support them. The SMSC ftp (ftp.smsc.com) has loadable DOS drivers for the extra units that provides BIOS support (and thereby DOS support) for the extra units. --Chuck From js at cimmeri.com Tue May 5 11:08:04 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 11:08:04 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820-II diskette formats In-Reply-To: References: , <49FD4DDB.9162.489D189@cclist.sydex.com> <49FF0643.8010103@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <4A006464.90501@cimmeri.com> Steven Hirsch wrote: >>> That's fairly conservative, but works out to almost a 1MB for the >>> DSDD diskettes. Most systems I'm familiar with formatted at 32 x >>> 256 in DD mode. >> What?! Using what controller chip? How that's even possible while >> maintaining the same 360rpm? > > Too early in the day... Just checked the sources for the formatter, > and it's 30 256-byte sectors per track not 32. So clarify this for me. Someone figured that they could squeeze more out of a track than the IBM System 34 standard? How was this done? By decreasing decreasing the gap lengths? jS From js at cimmeri.com Tue May 5 11:22:01 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 11:22:01 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: References: <693F2D4E6715@dunfield.com> <20090504162309.R44203@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4A0067A9.4000509@cimmeri.com> Steven Hirsch wrote: > Dave, > > There is no reason to turn on the hot and cold running nastiness and > sarcasm. I really thought you were above this sort of behavior. > > I WAS NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT THE APPLICATION OR YOUR SUPPORT OF IT. > HOW MUCH CLEARER CAN I MAKE THIS? > > If you are LOOKING for a confrontation, you've come to the wrong place. > > Since things have gone so sour here ... yada yada yada... > Steve, dude, you are way over-reacting. No one is being nasty, nor not-playfully-sarcastic. Let me take a quick shot at clarifying this minor set of email-muddled misunderstandings, then I'll shut up about it. Your original post ... " but IMD does not recognize my Compaticard IV (why on earth does it restrict you to drives A-D??). " ... if interpreted as such, does read like a bit of minor complaining... specifically the "why on earth ... ??". Now, because I've emailed/posted with you for a fairly long time now, I have a sense of your style, and know that you were just exclaiming aloud without meaning anything by it. Similarly, Dave's responses: "Why on earth did IBM define the PC with only enough bits in the drive select/motor on register for 4 drives ... A-D are the standard drives suspported by the hardware -- anything else needs "special drivers" and I'm just not going there... But you can get a full refund with the "DELETE" command so all is not lost." and " ... so instead of complaining about it, you can put in however much time you think should have been put into supporting your special hardware yourself!" ... I thought were hilarious, and while I don't know for sure, I took it as he was just trying to be funny while expressing some very mild flabbergastion over your exclamation about limitations of his program. Similarly, my responses: "Yeah, and anyway, 4 drives ought to be more than enough for anybody! lol. " and "why IMD doesn't provide a free interface that allows me to plug in my S-100 disk controller floppy cable to a special adapter that I can insert into the 3.5" floppy drive of my PC.. ...Is it me, or is there just something wrong with that Dave Dunfield guy? Or are ALL Canadians like that?? " ... was meant to continue the very funny (to me, and at least a few others) situation by pretending to demand EVEN MORE of Dave. Ok? Are we all clear now? jS From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 5 11:42:07 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 09:42:07 -0700 Subject: Xerox 820-II diskette formats In-Reply-To: <4A006464.90501@cimmeri.com> References: , , <4A006464.90501@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <4A0009EF.28989.F38AD9F@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 May 2009 at 11:08, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > So clarify this for me. Someone figured that they could squeeze more > out of a track than the IBM System 34 standard? How was this done? > By decreasing decreasing the gap lengths? Exactly. After all, IBM did it--the original 160K 5.25" disks for the 5150 were 8*512 and by DOS 2.0 had been expanded to the 9*512 180K format. It's possible to reliably fit 10*512 on a 2D 5.25" diskette on a PC with reasonably "modern" drives, but the gaps get very small. Many CP/M formats left off the IDAM to make room for larger gaps when the 10*512 format was used, but that's not an option for a stock 765-based controller. On an 8" drive, the limit is 30 sectors for the 256 byte soft-sector floppies. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue May 5 11:45:07 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 10:45:07 -0600 Subject: 8" drives for sale In-Reply-To: <4A0067A9.4000509@cimmeri.com> References: <693F2D4E6715@dunfield.com> <20090504162309.R44203@shell.lmi.net> <4A0067A9.4000509@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <4A006D13.1090507@jetnet.ab.ca> Surplus Sales of Nebraska has 8" floppy drives and 8" SDD disks for sale. From frustum at pacbell.net Tue May 5 11:56:48 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 11:56:48 -0500 Subject: 8" drives for sale In-Reply-To: <4A006D13.1090507@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <693F2D4E6715@dunfield.com> <20090504162309.R44203@shell.lmi.net> <4A0067A9.4000509@cimmeri.com> <4A006D13.1090507@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4A006FD0.9040208@pacbell.net> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Surplus Sales of Nebraska has 8" floppy drives and 8" SDD disks for sale. > > To make it simpler for people: http://www.surplussales.com/ComputerAccess/Floppydrive.html From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue May 5 11:58:11 2009 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 12:58:11 -0400 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <4A0067A9.4000509@cimmeri.com> References: <693F2D4E6715@dunfield.com> <20090504162309.R44203@shell.lmi.net> <4A0067A9.4000509@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <4A007023.2060702@sbcglobal.net> js at cimmeri.com wrote: > Steven Hirsch wrote: >> Dave, >> >> There is no reason to turn on the hot and cold running nastiness and >> sarcasm. I really thought you were above this sort of behavior. >> >> I WAS NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT THE APPLICATION OR YOUR SUPPORT OF IT. >> HOW MUCH CLEARER CAN I MAKE THIS? >> >> If you are LOOKING for a confrontation, you've come to the wrong place. >> >> Since things have gone so sour here ... yada yada yada... >> > Steve, dude, you are way over-reacting. No one is being nasty, nor > not-playfully-sarcastic. Let me take a quick shot at clarifying this > minor set of email-muddled misunderstandings, then I'll shut up about it. > > Your original post ... > > " but IMD does not recognize my Compaticard IV (why on earth does it > restrict you to drives A-D??). " > > ... if interpreted as such, does read like a bit of minor > complaining... specifically the "why on earth ... ??". Now, because > I've emailed/posted with you for a fairly long time now, I have a sense > of your style, and know that you were just exclaiming aloud without > meaning anything by it. > > Similarly, Dave's responses: > > "Why on earth did IBM define the PC with only enough bits in the drive > select/motor on register for 4 drives ... A-D are the standard drives > suspported by the hardware -- anything else needs "special drivers" and > I'm just not going there... But you can get a full refund with the > "DELETE" command so all is not lost." > > and > > " ... so instead of complaining about it, you can put in however much > time you think should have been put into supporting your special > hardware yourself!" > > ... I thought were hilarious, and while I don't know for sure, I took it > as he was just trying to be funny while expressing some very mild > flabbergastion over your exclamation about limitations of his program. > > Similarly, my responses: "Yeah, and anyway, 4 drives ought to be more > than enough for anybody! lol. " > > and > > "why IMD doesn't provide a free interface that allows me to plug in my > S-100 disk controller floppy cable to a special adapter that I can > insert into the 3.5" floppy drive of my PC.. ...Is it me, or is there > just something wrong with that Dave Dunfield guy? Or are ALL Canadians > like that?? " > > ... was meant to continue the very funny (to me, and at least a few > others) situation by pretending to demand EVEN MORE of Dave. > > Ok? Are we all clear now? > No. 8-P -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 5 12:54:49 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 18:54:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Bitsavers size in historical units In-Reply-To: <20090504114846.U32755@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 4, 9 11:50:55 am Message-ID: > > On Mon, 4 May 2009, Tony Duell wrote: > > The stocks and/or pillory would seem to come in rather handy here :-) > > We might have to ship them over there. Sorry, we don't have anough of them over here for all the people who ought to be put in them :-) Anyway, there must be at least one person across the Pond who could make them... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 5 13:06:56 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 19:06:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Beehive DM5 and Teletype Model 43 terminals In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at May 4, 9 08:40:50 pm Message-ID: > - Service Manual for Teletype Model 43 teleprinter > > Parts list, schematics, troubleshooting procedures, mechanical > assembly drawings, etc. Basically, this is everything you ever needed > for the Model 43 Teletype. If someone needs this scanned in order to > diagnose a problem, let me know. Is this the one with the rather curious style, in that the dismantling instructions for a particlar section show an exploded diagram with arrows pointing to the various parts with label on said arrows like '1 : Remove the screws; '2 : Remove the bustle cover' '3 : Unplug the cable' and so on? I have it somewhere. The scheamtics are useful, certainly... -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 5 13:21:08 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 14:21:08 -0400 Subject: Bitsavers size in historical units In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <335BABC6-E682-4979-9C23-E97CCBFB613B@neurotica.com> On May 5, 2009, at 1:54 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> The stocks and/or pillory would seem to come in rather handy >>> here :-) >> >> We might have to ship them over there. > > Sorry, we don't have anough of them over here for all the people who > ought to be put in them :-) > > Anyway, there must be at least one person across the Pond who > could make > them... Are you kidding? Someone over here actually MAKE something? HA! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dave09 at dunfield.com Tue May 5 14:23:30 2009 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 14:23:30 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <4A0067A9.4000509@cimmeri.com> References: Message-ID: <6DCA6492119E@dunfield.com> > > Dave, > > > > There is no reason to turn on the hot and cold running nastiness and > > sarcasm. I really thought you were above this sort of behavior. > > > > I WAS NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT THE APPLICATION OR YOUR SUPPORT OF IT. > > HOW MUCH CLEARER CAN I MAKE THIS? > > > > If you are LOOKING for a confrontation, you've come to the wrong place. > > > > Since things have gone so sour here ... yada yada yada... > > > Steve, dude, you are way over-reacting. No one is being nasty, nor > not-playfully-sarcastic. Let me take a quick shot at clarifying this > minor set of email-muddled misunderstandings, then I'll shut up about it. > > Your original post ... > > " but IMD does not recognize my Compaticard IV (why on earth does it > restrict you to drives A-D??). " > > ... if interpreted as such, does read like a bit of minor > complaining... specifically the "why on earth ... ??". Now, because > I've emailed/posted with you for a fairly long time now, I have a sense > of your style, and know that you were just exclaiming aloud without > meaning anything by it. > > Similarly, Dave's responses: > > "Why on earth did IBM define the PC with only enough bits in the drive > select/motor on register for 4 drives ... A-D are the standard drives > suspported by the hardware -- anything else needs "special drivers" and > I'm just not going there... But you can get a full refund with the > "DELETE" command so all is not lost." > > and > > " ... so instead of complaining about it, you can put in however much > time you think should have been put into supporting your special > hardware yourself!" > > ... I thought were hilarious, and while I don't know for sure, I took it > as he was just trying to be funny while expressing some very mild > flabbergastion over your exclamation about limitations of his program. Exactly. Dave -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 5 13:37:28 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 18:37:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Keeping the joystick dream alive Message-ID: <172521.11059.qm@web23408.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi, An article (and video) featuring Paul Qureshi about his hacking of a Dreamcast Arcade controller, an old Atari Joystick, and an old Pacman arcade motherboard. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8024182.stm Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 5 14:03:08 2009 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 12:03:08 -0700 Subject: More broken Apples... PIE In-Reply-To: <49FB87B8.4020505@databasics.us> References: <20090501132715.M10155@shell.lmi.net> <49FB87B8.4020505@databasics.us> Message-ID: <4A008D6C.1090804@socal.rr.com> Warren Wolfe wrote: > Don't you want a program that lets you improve your efficiency? > > Will you always be a total noob, or do you expect to understand your > computer one day? > > How fast are good typists who use this program? > > Are there "speed keys" for any of these functions? > > > > Warren PIE was blazing, but right on the edge of too hard to master. It was basically an optimized port of a editor from Sperry Rand. It was also my friends test mule for learning how to write the fastest code on an Apple II, so as he learned, the program improved to pretty much instant response. Its hard to describe just how slow everything else felt like, and in many ways still is. Zero lag is so sweet. Many professional users preferred it well into the PC age. I only switched to the MAC+ because of display and peripheral issues with the Apple II. Page 10 has an ad for it, and shows a partial set of instructions. http://archive.6502.org/publications/micro/micro_12_may_1979.pdf From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 5 14:40:33 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 12:40:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: References: , <20090504140354.X38253@shell.lmi.net> <49FF0B13.32694.B551BA7@cclist.sydex.com> <20090504153744.X41954@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net> > > Not trying to ridicule Steven or Dave; just pointing out that once you > > start adding/expanding there might not be a stopping point to that career On Mon, 4 May 2009, Steven Hirsch wrote: > - I couldn't figure out why it wouldn't let me specify a drive higher than > D. That's the extent of my concern. I just wanted to take a shot at because the stock PC hardware supports a max of 4 drives. Any more requires after-market hardware that is not standardized. > seeing if it would talk to the Compaticard FDC. It won't. > Now that I know it doesn't support anything but the NEC 765, I'll have to The Compaticard IS NEC 765 (or indistinguishable copy) > drives, 1.2M, 1.4M and, I think, one other. What tells it there's an 8" > drive out there? 1.2M == 8" drive From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue May 5 14:47:06 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 12:47:06 -0700 Subject: Apple II swift board (was: More broken Apples...) In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Mon, 04 May 2009 22:28:49 -0700. Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > From: legalize at xmission.com > Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 07:45:07 -0600 > Subject: Re: Apple II swift board (was: More broken Apples...) > > > In article , > dwight elvey writes: > >> It was just that little board. It took over >> the Apple IIe and even had its own disk format. >> 16K bytes is a lot of Forth code. >> Dwight > > What was in it? Hi I just looked through the manual. It seems that it was stand alone for most every thing. It did have a ProDos program that one could run to transfer text files to ProDos. This was on one side of the Demo disk. One could completely run from the card. One could also call to BASIC and run code the ( with a few caveats ). When that card was running, it ran in the same 12K space as BASIC. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail? has ever-growing storage! Don?t worry about storage limits. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage1_052009 From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 5 14:58:49 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 13:58:49 -0600 Subject: Apple II swift board (was: More broken Apples...) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 05 May 2009 12:47:06 -0700. Message-ID: In article , dwight elvey writes: > I just looked through the manual. It seems that it was > stand alone for most every thing. OK, that is impressive, for a small ROM to contain every program I might ever need. How did they do it? Seriously, at the risk of repeating myself one more time: What was in it? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue May 5 16:02:51 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 18:02:51 -0300 Subject: Extracting a 8049 (ROM) program References: Your message of Mon, 04 May 2009 22:28:49 -0700. Message-ID: <2a9a01c9cdc5$9142b810$b73c19bb@desktaba> Dear friends, Anyone has a clue of how to extract a 8049 program? This is for a Kenwood TS-430 radio. It uses a 8049 for entire rig control, but got one fried. It would help a lot if I could extract a program from a known good TS-430 and program a 8749 with that. Thanks Alexandre From melamy at earthlink.net Tue May 5 16:39:14 2009 From: melamy at earthlink.net (melamy at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 17:39:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Extracting a 8049 (ROM) program Message-ID: <2607021.1241559554906.JavaMail.root@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> take a look at this... http://www.sbprojects.com/projects/8049spy/8049spy.htm best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- >From: Alexandre Souza >Sent: May 5, 2009 5:02 PM >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" >Subject: Extracting a 8049 (ROM) program > > > Dear friends, > > Anyone has a clue of how to extract a 8049 program? > > This is for a Kenwood TS-430 radio. It uses a 8049 for entire rig >control, but got one fried. It would help a lot if I could extract a program >from a known good TS-430 and program a 8749 with that. > > Thanks > Alexandre > From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Tue May 5 16:48:03 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 14:48:03 -0700 Subject: Apple II swift board (was: More broken Apples...) References: Message-ID: <002701c9cdcb$2b2bdd80$0201a8c0@hal9000> I have a 32K EPROM that contains SELF TEST, Diagnostics, Editor / Assembler, BASIC, FORTH, CHIP-8 and BIOS / BOOTSTRAP for ElfOS disk operation system for the 1802. Comes from the Spare Time Gizmos guys ( no relation ). Best regards, Steven > > In article , > dwight elvey writes: > > > I just looked through the manual. It seems that it was > > stand alone for most every thing. > > OK, that is impressive, for a small ROM to contain every program I > might ever need. > > How did they do it? > > > > Seriously, at the risk of repeating myself one more time: > > What was in it? From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 5 16:53:45 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 15:53:45 -0600 Subject: Apple II swift board (was: More broken Apples...) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 05 May 2009 14:48:03 -0700. <002701c9cdcb$2b2bdd80$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: In article <002701c9cdcb$2b2bdd80$0201a8c0 at hal9000>, "Scanning" writes: > I have a 32K EPROM that contains SELF TEST, Diagnostics, Editor / Assembler, > BASIC, FORTH, CHIP-8 and BIOS / BOOTSTRAP for ElfOS disk operation system > for the 1802. Comes from the Spare Time Gizmos guys ( no relation ). Err... OK, but since this comes from Spare Time Gizmos, I don't see what it has to do with the Swyft. Is it connected? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From alexeyt at freeshell.org Tue May 5 17:17:51 2009 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 22:17:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: 32-bit clean SE30 ROMs (was Re: Chips that changed the world) In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0905021350x29e5acfbx3338847a64cd28cd@mail.gmail.com> References: <49FCA151.2C1E843A@cs.ubc.ca> <4affc5e0905021350x29e5acfbx3338847a64cd28cd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 2 May 2009, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > Somehow this seemed only a problem on Macs - the "dirty" ROMs issue on > the SE30 and some others. I don't recall the Amiga ever having those > issues, and I have no clue about the Atari... So speaking of the SE30, I've got one but not a 32-bit clean ROM for it. What model Mac do I need to borrow a ROM from to make it 32-bit clean? Alexey From spectre at floodgap.com Tue May 5 17:43:24 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 15:43:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 32-bit clean SE30 ROMs (was Re: Chips that changed the world) In-Reply-To: from Alexey Toptygin at "May 5, 9 10:17:51 pm" Message-ID: <200905052243.n45MhPx4012308@floodgap.com> > > Somehow this seemed only a problem on Macs - the "dirty" ROMs issue on > > the SE30 and some others. I don't recall the Amiga ever having those > > issues, and I have no clue about the Atari... > > So speaking of the SE30, I've got one but not a 32-bit clean ROM for it. > What model Mac do I need to borrow a ROM from to make it 32-bit clean? A IIsi should do, but good luck finding one with a ROM SIMM. Use MODE32 and be happy. It should be downloadable from all kinds of places. http://lowendmac.com/daystar/pages/dsd_products/support/ts_mode32.html -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TODAY'S DUMB TRUE HEADLINE: Plane Too Close to Ground, Crash Probe Told ---- From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 5 17:52:30 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 22:52:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Zebra Systems Videos... In-Reply-To: <884880.76936.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <886330.33038.qm@web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com> * off-list reply * I am replying off-list as this is quite an old email, and don't wish to start another flamewar on list! (not that I intend to start one with you) I just watched the video's. The quality is pretty good, since they are so old and were converted from betamax tapes. I do own a Spectrum 128K, but never used the earlier models sadly. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Wed, 3/12/08, Al Hartman wrote: From: Al Hartman Subject: Zebra Systems Videos... To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, 3 December, 2008, 12:59 PM In emptying the warehouse of Zebra Systems, we uncovered the original Betamax tapes of these two shows. I posted them on YouTube for your enjoyment. We also uncovered a load of books, tapes, and some TS-1000/1500/ZX-81 Hardware. We even found about 5 TS-1500 Computers that we'll be offering on eBay. But for now, enjoy these: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtDG5cWmH8s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awUonjY_jcs Al Hartman From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Tue May 5 18:00:09 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 16:00:09 -0700 Subject: Apple II swift board (was: More broken Apples...) References: Message-ID: <005101c9cdd5$3da65990$0201a8c0@hal9000> Just an observation on how much you can cram into a small memory space if you try. I'll retract my tangent back from whence it came. / Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 2:53 PM Subject: Re: Apple II swift board (was: More broken Apples...) > > In article <002701c9cdcb$2b2bdd80$0201a8c0 at hal9000>, > "Scanning" writes: > > > I have a 32K EPROM that contains SELF TEST, Diagnostics, Editor / Assembler, > > BASIC, FORTH, CHIP-8 and BIOS / BOOTSTRAP for ElfOS disk operation system > > for the 1802. Comes from the Spare Time Gizmos guys ( no relation ). > > Err... OK, but since this comes from Spare Time Gizmos, I don't see > what it has to do with the Swyft. > > Is it connected? From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 5 17:58:22 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 22:58:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Zebra Systems Videos... In-Reply-To: <886330.33038.qm@web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <22733.95435.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> oops. Sorry folks, that was meant to be a private mail. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Tue, 5/5/09, Andrew Burton wrote: From: Andrew Burton Subject: Re: Zebra Systems Videos... To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Tuesday, 5 May, 2009, 11:52 PM * off-list reply * I am replying off-list as this is quite an old email, and don't wish to start another flamewar on list! (not that I intend to start one with you) I just watched the video's. The quality is pretty good, since they are so old and were converted from betamax tapes. I do own a Spectrum 128K, but never used the earlier models sadly. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Wed, 3/12/08, Al Hartman wrote: From: Al Hartman Subject: Zebra Systems Videos... To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, 3 December, 2008, 12:59 PM In emptying the warehouse of Zebra Systems, we uncovered the original Betamax tapes of these two shows. I posted them on YouTube for your enjoyment. We also uncovered a load of books, tapes, and some TS-1000/1500/ZX-81 Hardware. We even found about 5 TS-1500 Computers that we'll be offering on eBay. But for now, enjoy these: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtDG5cWmH8s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awUonjY_jcs Al Hartman From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue May 5 18:24:26 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 16:24:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 32-bit clean SE30 ROMs (was Re: Chips that changed the world) In-Reply-To: <200905052243.n45MhPx4012308@floodgap.com> References: <200905052243.n45MhPx4012308@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 May 2009, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> So speaking of the SE30, I've got one but not a 32-bit clean ROM for it. >> What model Mac do I need to borrow a ROM from to make it 32-bit clean? > > A IIsi should do, but good luck finding one with a ROM SIMM. Use MODE32 and > be happy. It should be downloadable from all kinds of places. > > http://lowendmac.com/daystar/pages/dsd_products/support/ts_mode32.html While we're on the subject of diddling around with old Mac one-piece machines, would someone please tell me where I can get some replacement chassis screws? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 5 21:28:51 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 20:28:51 -0600 Subject: Beehive DM5 and Teletype Model 43 terminals In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 05 May 2009 19:06:56 +0100. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > - Service Manual for Teletype Model 43 teleprinter > > > > Parts list, schematics, troubleshooting procedures, mechanical > > assembly drawings, etc. Basically, this is everything you ever needed > > for the Model 43 Teletype. If someone needs this scanned in order to > > diagnose a problem, let me know. > > Is this the one with the rather curious style, in that the dismantling > instructions for a particlar section show an exploded diagram with arrows > pointing to the various parts with label on said arrows like '1 : Remove > the screws; '2 : Remove the bustle cover' '3 : Unplug the cable' and so on? I hadn't looked in that much detail yet, but yes, I do find such a diagram on pg. 1-25 of manual 369. What I have is a collection of manuals in a 3-ring binder titled "the 43 teleprinter repair manual set for basic terminals without an internal data set". The binder contains the following manuals: 367 How to operate 368 Installation and routine Servicing 369 Service manual 522 Repair manual for TTL and SSI logic cards 523 Repair manual for power supplies 525 Repair manual for keyboards 544 Parts manual for: - Enclosures - Paper handling - Miscellaneous accessories 539 Repair manual for 42, 43, 45 30 cps character printer mechanisms - Interface description for teletype model 43 The excerpt you describe above is in the 368 manual, but this manual set includes much more than that one manual. Manual 368 is the thickest, the the rest of them combined are about the same thickness as manual 368. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue May 5 23:03:58 2009 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 23:03:58 -0500 Subject: Looking for M4 Data 9905 manual or diagnostic program code listing References: <49FA7747.3060408@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <056a01c9cdff$aee33450$c900a8c0@JWEST> I think I have a service manual for this one, let me know if you haven't gotten a response yet. Jay From rescue at hawkmountain.net Tue May 5 23:56:50 2009 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Wed, 06 May 2009 00:56:50 -0400 Subject: 32-bit clean SE30 ROMs (was Re: Chips that changed the world) In-Reply-To: References: <49FCA151.2C1E843A@cs.ubc.ca> <4affc5e0905021350x29e5acfbx3338847a64cd28cd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A011892.8020002@hawkmountain.net> Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Sat, 2 May 2009, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > >> Somehow this seemed only a problem on Macs - the "dirty" ROMs issue on >> the SE30 and some others. I don't recall the Amiga ever having those >> issues, and I have no clue about the Atari... > > So speaking of the SE30, I've got one but not a 32-bit clean ROM for > it. What model Mac do I need to borrow a ROM from to make it 32-bit > clean? The IIsi ROM... but most IIsi's had the rom soldered on the mainboard. The IIfx ROM is what you'll need... more common then IIsi ROMs... but still not very common to find. -- Curt > > Alexey > From rescue at hawkmountain.net Tue May 5 23:58:42 2009 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Wed, 06 May 2009 00:58:42 -0400 Subject: 32-bit clean SE30 ROMs (was Re: Chips that changed the world) In-Reply-To: References: <200905052243.n45MhPx4012308@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4A011902.9080700@hawkmountain.net> David Griffith wrote: > On Tue, 5 May 2009, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >>> So speaking of the SE30, I've got one but not a 32-bit clean ROM for >>> it. >>> What model Mac do I need to borrow a ROM from to make it 32-bit clean? >> >> A IIsi should do, but good luck finding one with a ROM SIMM. Use >> MODE32 and >> be happy. It should be downloadable from all kinds of places. >> >> http://lowendmac.com/daystar/pages/dsd_products/support/ts_mode32.html > > While we're on the subject of diddling around with old Mac one-piece > machines, would someone please tell me where I can get some > replacement chassis screws? From what model, and which screws ? I received a parts SE30 at one point (broken tube, damage case (from a drop)). I think I may have the screws around (if I can find them). -- Curt From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Tue May 5 09:29:00 2009 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 09:29:00 -0500 Subject: home brew S-100 backplane project References: <2EF06AC781CF43AFB06CBFBFAE39E665@andrewdesktop><02ca01c9ccbb$73715e50$6400a8c0@acerd3c08b49af> <22fc01c9ccf9$f1841ce0$b73c19bb@desktaba> Message-ID: <039101c9cd8d$d592cba0$6400a8c0@acerd3c08b49af> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alexandre Souza" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 3:47 PM Subject: Re: home brew S-100 backplane project >> Great pictures! (Once I figured out that I had to use IE vs. Firefox.) >> I > > Firefox worked ok here > Must be some setting I have that prevents all of the page from showing up... I have "Block pop-up windows" checked, but I have "Load images automatically", "Enable JavaScript" and "Enable Java" checked. Under "Colors", I have "Allow pages to choose their own colors..." checked which I know from bad experiences can hide things if I insist on my preferred background color. I also have "Accept cookies from sites" checked, but "Accept third-party cookies" is unchecked. OK, I just changed "Minimum font size" from my preferred 13 down to 10 (the default?) and now it works with Firefox! With it set to 13 the whole right side of the page where the links to download the pdf's and jpg's was just blank. I'm afraid I'm not enough of an html expert to figure out why. Thanks for the note. This will help me in the future I'm sure when pages display in a strange manner. Later, Charlie Carothers -- My email address is csquared3 at tx dot rr dot com From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue May 5 10:26:35 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 11:26:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <49FFE549.1152.EA98667@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20090504153744.X41954@shell.lmi.net>, , <6C29287F4D31@dunfield.com> <49FFE549.1152.EA98667@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 May 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > While programs such as ImageDIsk don't require software to access > these extra drives, the motherboard BIOS doesn't usually support > them. The SMSC ftp (ftp.smsc.com) has loadable DOS drivers for the > extra units that provides BIOS support (and thereby DOS support) for > the extra units. Would the pertinent file be: 661d4104.zip ? -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue May 5 12:48:01 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 13:48:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 8" drives for sale In-Reply-To: <4A006D13.1090507@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <693F2D4E6715@dunfield.com> <20090504162309.R44203@shell.lmi.net> <4A0067A9.4000509@cimmeri.com> <4A006D13.1090507@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 May 2009, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Surplus Sales of Nebraska has 8" floppy drives and 8" SDD disks for sale. The floppy media prices are absurd. Drives not so much if they're clean and operational. Not a bad deal if you need the half-height units and don't want to muck with ePay. -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue May 5 14:55:11 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 15:55:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net> References: , <20090504140354.X38253@shell.lmi.net> <49FF0B13.32694.B551BA7@cclist.sydex.com> <20090504153744.X41954@shell.lmi.net> <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 May 2009, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Not trying to ridicule Steven or Dave; just pointing out that once you >>> start adding/expanding there might not be a stopping point to that career > > On Mon, 4 May 2009, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> - I couldn't figure out why it wouldn't let me specify a drive higher than >> D. That's the extent of my concern. I just wanted to take a shot at > > because the stock PC hardware supports a max of 4 drives. Any more > requires after-market hardware that is not standardized. >> seeing if it would talk to the Compaticard FDC. It won't. >> Now that I know it doesn't support anything but the NEC 765, I'll have to > > The Compaticard IS NEC 765 (or indistinguishable copy) Then I'm at a loss as to what the problem is. I can configure the system such that the Compaticard is the primary controller (disable the on-board FDC in the BIOS). The first 8" drive is unit 2 (in 0..3) and mapped as drive D:. I did try lying to IMD and telling it that drive was 1.2, but testfdc immediately returns an error without anything obvious having happened. In the IMD application itself, I can select format and it loads the heads, pauses a moment and returns a "write protect" error. That's about when I threw in the towel. The drive and card work perfectly under Teledisk, 22disk, etc, etc. and I was able to write a usable boot disk on it after a kind list member sent me a TD0 image. > >> drives, 1.2M, 1.4M and, I think, one other. What tells it there's an 8" >> drive out there? > > 1.2M == 8" drive > -- From chrise at pobox.com Tue May 5 16:29:46 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 16:29:46 -0500 Subject: 8" drives for sale In-Reply-To: References: <693F2D4E6715@dunfield.com> <20090504162309.R44203@shell.lmi.net> <4A0067A9.4000509@cimmeri.com> <4A006D13.1090507@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20090505212946.GC13326@n0jcf.net> On Tuesday (05/05/2009 at 01:48PM -0400), Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Tue, 5 May 2009, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > >> Surplus Sales of Nebraska has 8" floppy drives and 8" SDD disks for sale. > > The floppy media prices are absurd. Drives not so much if they're clean > and operational. Not a bad deal if you need the half-height units and > don't want to muck with ePay. I see they also have MPI / CDC 5.25" drives p/n 77711501. Does anyone know if those are 100 TPI drives? Chris -- Chris Elmquist From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Wed May 6 02:32:57 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 06 May 2009 00:32:57 -0700 Subject: Looking for M4 Data 9905 manual or diagnostic program code listing In-Reply-To: <056a01c9cdff$aee33450$c900a8c0@JWEST> References: <49FA7747.3060408@mail.msu.edu> <056a01c9cdff$aee33450$c900a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <4A013D29.9060903@mail.msu.edu> Jay West wrote: > I think I have a service manual for this one, let me know if you > haven't gotten a response yet. > > Jay > > Yours is the first response I've seen -- if you do have the manual, I'd love a scan of it (or just the diagnostics portions...) Thanks! Josh From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Wed May 6 04:52:57 2009 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Wed, 06 May 2009 11:52:57 +0200 Subject: list of nordisk data books and floppy disks In-Reply-To: <494D7BD2.3000108@brothom.nl> References: <494D7BD2.3000108@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <4A015DF9.7070401@ifi.uio.no> Bert Thomas wrote: > If you need access to one of these, contact me an urge me to make a > deal. Keep pushing, as pushing raises priority with me. > > Books: > > NOTIS-BG User Guide > NOTIS-RG New functions in the E-version ... Hello Bert, are these still available? Regards, -Tore :) From dave09 at dunfield.com Wed May 6 06:30:25 2009 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 06:30:25 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: References: <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <713F77AC4D17@dunfield.com> > > The Compaticard IS NEC 765 (or indistinguishable copy) > > Then I'm at a loss as to what the problem is. I can configure the system > such that the Compaticard is the primary controller (disable the on-board > FDC in the BIOS). The first 8" drive is unit 2 (in 0..3) and mapped as > drive D:. I did try lying to IMD and telling it that drive was 1.2, but > testfdc immediately returns an error without anything obvious having > happened. I'm not sure what you mean by "mapped as drive D:" - Is this with the DOS driver? Unit 2 (in 0..3) would be C: for ImageDisk (Like Chuck suggested earlier, ImageDisk's A-D represents units 0-3 on the primary floppy controller - NOT any sort of OS mapping). I'd recommend NOT using any extra drivers with ImageDisk (it talks directly to the hardware, and external drivers can interfere with that if they are triggered on an interrupt). > In the IMD application itself, I can select format and it loads the heads, > pauses a moment and returns a "write protect" error. > > That's about when I threw in the towel. The drive and card work perfectly > under Teledisk, 22disk, etc, etc. and I was able to write a usable boot > disk on it after a kind list member sent me a TD0 image. I can help figure this out if you want to contact me off-list. Here's some things to try: - Does imagedisk work OK with standard PC drives on A: or B: - If not, then the controller is probably not a standard PC controller. (Does it work at all without special drivers loaded?) - If yes, does it work with the standard drive on C: or D: - If no, then the drive 2-3 selection is probably different from the one implemented in ImageDisk (this is non-standard) - If yes then it may be the 8" drive configuration - perhaps the Compaticard wires it differently that I do (details of my 8" connections are in the help) - Since you now have good media ... can you READ a disk in the 8" drive with ImageDisk? Dave -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Wed May 6 05:50:29 2009 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Wed, 06 May 2009 12:50:29 +0200 Subject: Beehive DM5 and Teletype Model 43 terminals In-Reply-To: <49FF737B.5667.CECF811@cclist.sydex.com> References: <49FF737B.5667.CECF811@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A016B75.9000000@ifi.uio.no> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4 May 2009 at 20:40, Richard wrote: > > >> Looks interesting, although I've never seen one in person. An >> interesting feature is that it provides an escape sequence to >> download 8085 binary code directly into the terminal (as ASCII hex >> digit sequences). I'm wondering what it would take to load a space >> invaders game into it :-). >> > > I don't think that was at all unusual. When I did the mono terminal > for Fortune, they requested the feature so they could do QA on the > terminal without opening it up. Wrote a bunch of diagnostics that > were downloaded as part of the manufacturing process. Basically, an > Intel hex binary file with each record prefixed by an (undocumented) > escape sequence. > Yep, Tandberg TDV-2100 and TDV-2200 terminals did this, also. Never got the diags to work, though, for some reason. -Tore :) From ray at arachelian.com Wed May 6 08:09:50 2009 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Wed, 06 May 2009 09:09:50 -0400 Subject: 32-bit clean SE30 ROMs (was Re: Chips that changed the world) In-Reply-To: <4A011892.8020002@hawkmountain.net> References: <49FCA151.2C1E843A@cs.ubc.ca> <4affc5e0905021350x29e5acfbx3338847a64cd28cd@mail.gmail.com> <4A011892.8020002@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <4A018C1E.1020400@arachelian.com> Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > The IIsi ROM... but most IIsi's had the rom soldered on the mainboard. > > The IIfx ROM is what you'll need... more common then IIsi ROMs... but > still not > very common to find. > Don't forget there is also Mode/32 which will fix the issue. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MODE32, so it'll save you some hassle finding ROMs. From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed May 6 09:15:29 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 16:15:29 +0200 Subject: parts of Cypher 100 tape drive available Message-ID: Hi all, I have a non-working Cyper 100 tape drive which I am going to dump. Before doing that, I offer any part of the drive for the cost of shipping (from The Netherlands). You can see the drive in the picture in the second row, at the right-hand side. It's the tape drive on the left above the PDP-11/55. (On the right side is the TU45): www.pdp-11.nl/pdp11-55/pdp11-55startpage.html Shipping the complete drive is too expensive, but if you need the transformer or the (big) logic board, or whatever, I am willing to disassemble it for you. I hate to throw it away but I need the space for DEC stuff, so on request I will even take a few pictures, if requested. If I have not had a reply within a week, the complete drive will be "old iron". - Henk. From bert at brothom.nl Wed May 6 12:04:13 2009 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Wed, 06 May 2009 19:04:13 +0200 Subject: list of nordisk data books and floppy disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A01C30D.8010900@brothom.nl> >> NOTIS-BG User Guide >> NOTIS-RG New functions in the E-version > ... > > Hello Bert, are these still available? Yes, everything from that list is still available. From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 6 12:31:55 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 06 May 2009 11:31:55 -0600 Subject: Beehive DM5 and Teletype Model 43 terminals In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 04 May 2009 23:00:11 -0700. <49FF737B.5667.CECF811@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <49FF737B.5667.CECF811 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > [...] Basically, an > Intel hex binary file with each record prefixed by an (undocumented) > escape sequence. If its undocumented, its not a feature :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 6 13:24:47 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 19:24:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: Extracting a 8049 (ROM) program In-Reply-To: <2a9a01c9cdc5$9142b810$b73c19bb@desktaba> from "Alexandre Souza" at May 5, 9 06:02:51 pm Message-ID: > > > Dear friends, > > Anyone has a clue of how to extract a 8049 program? > > This is for a Kenwood TS-430 radio. It uses a 8049 for entire rig > control, but got one fried. It would help a lot if I could extract a program > from a known good TS-430 and program a 8749 with that. Do you have an 8749 programmer? IIRC the 8048 series don't have any security features, and the mask-ROM versions can be read out like the EPROM versions. Certainly I've got what look to be useful images that way. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 6 13:28:04 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 19:28:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Beehive DM5 and Teletype Model 43 terminals In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at May 5, 9 08:28:51 pm Message-ID: > What I have is a collection of manuals in a 3-ring binder titled "the > 43 teleprinter repair manual set for basic terminals without an > internal data set". The binder contains the following manuals: > > 367 How to operate > 368 Installation and routine Servicing > 369 Service manual > 522 Repair manual for TTL and SSI logic cards > 523 Repair manual for power supplies > 525 Repair manual for keyboards > 544 Parts manual for: > - Enclosures > - Paper handling > - Miscellaneous accessories > 539 Repair manual for 42, 43, 45 > 30 cps character printer mechanisms > - Interface description for teletype model 43 That is a lot more complete than my manual. Mine is just one book which covers the KSR43 -- it includes schematics, mechanical repair instructions, parts lists etc. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 6 13:53:54 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 11:53:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: References: , <20090504140354.X38253@shell.lmi.net> <49FF0B13.32694.B551BA7@cclist.sydex.com> <20090504153744.X41954@shell.lmi.net> <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20090506112937.D26288@shell.lmi.net> > > because the stock PC hardware supports a max of 4 drives. Any more > > requires after-market hardware that is not standardized. > >> seeing if it would talk to the Compaticard FDC. It won't. > >> Now that I know it doesn't support anything but the NEC 765, I'll have to > > The Compaticard IS NEC 765 (or indistinguishable copy) On Tue, 5 May 2009, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Then I'm at a loss as to what the problem is. I can configure the system > such that the Compaticard is the primary controller (disable the on-board > FDC in the BIOS). The first 8" drive is unit 2 (in 0..3) and mapped as > drive D:. Compaticard has a few more options than the stock controller, but is basically just a stock controller without all of the limitations that were made in IBM's board (such as being hardwired for double density) I don't have experience with IMD. Yet. One of these days when there's some free time, . . . BUT, I see a potential problem, based on my own software interface. You say "mapped", and I'm assuming that you mean DOS drive letter. Too many things, such as device drivers, affect the DOS drive letter mapping. What IMD NEEDS TO KNOW isn't the DOS drive letter, it's the unit number (0..3), which you've identified as #2. If you tell IMD "D:", is it thinking that that is unit #3? IFF you're machine is configured with 4 floppies, and THEN hard disks, (which is how I prefer to configure my machines) then floppies would be A: ... D:, followed by hard disk as E: But some MICROS~1 stuff is hard wired for boot and hard disk being C: Try a NON-DESTRUCTIVE test, telling IMD to access C:, and see if that operates unit #2 > I did try lying to IMD and telling it that drive was 1.2, but > testfdc immediately returns an error without anything obvious having > happened. > In the IMD application itself, I can select format and it loads the heads, > pauses a moment and returns a "write protect" error. I don't mean to be patronizing, but are you aware that 8" write protect is opposite of 5.25"? 8" is write protected when the notch is OPEN. Irrelevant trivia: In "The Computer Bowl" quiz show, NOBODY on Bill Gates' team could remember where the write protect notch was on 8" disks! It is where loose tabs can do the most damage. > That's about when I threw in the towel. The drive and card work perfectly > under Teledisk, 22disk, etc, etc. and I was able to write a usable boot > disk on it after a kind list member sent me a TD0 image. If you've got a little time, it still would be worth tracking down what is happening. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed May 6 07:22:58 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 08:22:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <713F77AC4D17@dunfield.com> References: <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net> <713F77AC4D17@dunfield.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 May 2009, Dave Dunfield wrote: >>> The Compaticard IS NEC 765 (or indistinguishable copy) >> >> Then I'm at a loss as to what the problem is. I can configure the system >> such that the Compaticard is the primary controller (disable the on-board >> FDC in the BIOS). The first 8" drive is unit 2 (in 0..3) and mapped as >> drive D:. I did try lying to IMD and telling it that drive was 1.2, but >> testfdc immediately returns an error without anything obvious having >> happened. > > I'm not sure what you mean by "mapped as drive D:" - Is this with the DOS > driver? Actually, the loadable drive and/or the ROM. With the internal controller disabled, the Compaticard ROM maps units 0 and 1 (5.25" drives) as A: and B:. > Unit 2 (in 0..3) would be C: for ImageDisk (Like Chuck suggested > earlier, ImageDisk's A-D represents units 0-3 on the primary floppy > controller - NOT any sort of OS mapping). Normally I read A..D as being A: --> D: FWIW, that's the way 22Disk and Teledisk present things. If you're saying that 'C' in IMD corresponds to unit 2 regardless of DOS logical mapping, then that's news to me. That was what frustrated me so much when I first fired up the program! I was thinking that I'd have to pull the hard disk out to get the two 8" drives mapped in as C and D so they could be "reached" from IMD. Since I have a hard disk in the bench computer, I was getting A: and B: as units 0 and 1 on the Compaticard, C: as the hard disk and D: and E: as units 2 and 3 (8" drives) on the Compaticard. As you surmise, this is with the CC4.SYS driver loaded. > I'd recommend NOT using any extra > drivers with ImageDisk (it talks directly to the hardware, and external > drivers can interfere with that if they are triggered on an interrupt). I will try that. >> In the IMD application itself, I can select format and it loads the heads, >> pauses a moment and returns a "write protect" error. >> >> That's about when I threw in the towel. The drive and card work perfectly >> under Teledisk, 22disk, etc, etc. and I was able to write a usable boot >> disk on it after a kind list member sent me a TD0 image. > > Here's some things to try: > > - Does imagedisk work OK with standard PC drives on A: or B: > - If not, then the controller is probably not a standard PC controller. > (Does it work at all without special drivers loaded?) > > - If yes, does it work with the standard drive on C: or D: > > - If no, then the drive 2-3 selection is probably different from the > one implemented in ImageDisk (this is non-standard) I'll try that this evening. > - If yes then it may be the 8" drive configuration - perhaps the > Compaticard wires it differently that I do (details of my 8" connections > are in the help) I kludged together that adapter out of a pair of cables (couldn't find a sacrificial 5.25" drive), but even on the motherboard floppy controller it's not working properly. Goes through the motions (head-load, seek) but throws errors on anything involving data transfer. It's possible that the drive jumpering (for Xerox 820-II) is the problem - or more likely a bad connection somewhere. The drive being used is NOT the one(s) attached to the Compaticard. I'd have to disassemble the case in order to try those (1/2-height Mitsubishi's). This is a red-herring, I'm sure. Will take another stab at building the adapter when I find a dead drive. Now that re-cycle mania has taken hold in the US, everything, but EVERYTHING goes into the crusher (or whatever they do with electronic junk). Drives are getting very hard to find and expensive, so I'd rather not chop up a good one :-(. > - Since you now have good media ... can you READ a disk in the 8" drive > with ImageDisk? Will try this evening. Steve -- From john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Wed May 6 12:04:56 2009 From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (John S) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 17:04:56 +0000 Subject: Datex floppy drive emulator - flash based replacement for magnetic media Message-ID: Hi, I came across this product on the web: http://www.datexdsm.com/emulator/docs/DTX200en.html with a review here: http://www.storagenewsletter.com/news/disk/datastorage-floppy-disk-drive-emulator-datex This is exactly the device which has been often talked about on this forum - namely a solid state drop-in replacement for a floppy disk drive. I have no idea how well it works (and at only 450 euro each if you buy 2 or more am not likely to find out in a hurry). Some random questions: - anyone here involved with developing this product? - can it emulate a hard sector floppy? - how does it compare with SVD (semi virtual diskette)? Apologies if this has been discussed at length already, any pointers to the cctalk archive appreciated. Regards, John _________________________________________________________________ Share your photos with Windows Live Photos ? Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665338/direct/01/ From jrr at flippers.com Wed May 6 12:39:19 2009 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Wed, 06 May 2009 10:39:19 -0700 Subject: Extracting a 8049 (ROM) program In-Reply-To: <2a9a01c9cdc5$9142b810$b73c19bb@desktaba> References: Your message of Mon, 04 May 2009 22:28:49 -0700. <2a9a01c9cdc5$9142b810$b73c19bb@desktaba> Message-ID: <4A01CB47.5050700@flippers.com> Alexandre Souza wrote: > > Dear friends, > > Anyone has a clue of how to extract a 8049 program? > > This is for a Kenwood TS-430 radio. It uses a 8049 for entire rig > control, but got one fried. It would help a lot if I could extract a > program from a known good TS-430 and program a 8749 with that. > > Thanks > Alexandre > > > The 8049 appears to have the same pinout as the 8041 and as such probably can be read on my Xeltek burner...I just don't have an 8049 to check... The 8041 ROM code is not protected and can be read with any Eprom Programmer that handles that series. My Xeltek SuperPro can handle that as can any other burner that shows the 8041 in its list of supported devices. John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From lproven at gmail.com Wed May 6 15:11:20 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 21:11:20 +0100 Subject: Free MCA stuff In-Reply-To: <1A157ECE8BDC46C9A934011E4FBE7A11@game> References: <01C9AD61.29652FE0@host-208-72-122-195.dyn.295.ca> <1A157ECE8BDC46C9A934011E4FBE7A11@game> Message-ID: <575131af0905061311x5ea627c5g3da1461198b79f7e@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/25 Teo Zenios : > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "M H Stein" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 4:48 PM > Subject: Re: Free MCA stuff > > >> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 13:53:09 -0400 >> From: Sridhar Ayengar >> Subject: Re: Free MCA stuff >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Message-ID: <49CA6F85.6020807 at gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed >> >> Liam Proven wrote: >>> >>> By the way, if this is not the place, do let me know. Peter Wendt's >>> MCA site seems to have gone & I don't know any other points for MCA >>> collectors or fans - but if anyone does, do please let me know! >> >> There are indeed MCA collectors on this list. >> >> Peace... ?Sridhar >> --------------------------------------- > > I collect MCA as well. Too bad that stuff isn't in the US. Just sent half a dozen or so of these MCA cards to a chap in Germany. ?8 or ?10. That's about $13. Just thought you might want to know... :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed May 6 15:51:33 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 16:51:33 -0400 Subject: Free MCA stuff References: <01C9AD61.29652FE0@host-208-72-122-195.dyn.295.ca><1A157ECE8BDC46C9A934011E4FBE7A11@game> <575131af0905061311x5ea627c5g3da1461198b79f7e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: So what is left? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liam Proven" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 4:11 PM Subject: Re: Free MCA stuff 2009/3/25 Teo Zenios : > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "M H Stein" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 4:48 PM > Subject: Re: Free MCA stuff > > >> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 13:53:09 -0400 >> From: Sridhar Ayengar >> Subject: Re: Free MCA stuff >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Message-ID: <49CA6F85.6020807 at gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed >> >> Liam Proven wrote: >>> >>> By the way, if this is not the place, do let me know. Peter Wendt's >>> MCA site seems to have gone & I don't know any other points for MCA >>> collectors or fans - but if anyone does, do please let me know! >> >> There are indeed MCA collectors on this list. >> >> Peace... Sridhar >> --------------------------------------- > > I collect MCA as well. Too bad that stuff isn't in the US. Just sent half a dozen or so of these MCA cards to a chap in Germany. ?8 or ?10. That's about $13. Just thought you might want to know... :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 6 15:53:35 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 13:53:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Panasonic PD LM-R650J Message-ID: I am looking for info on "Panasonic PD LM-R650J" optical media, and on what kind of drives can read it. I gather it is a 650MB Cartridge of some sort. Zane From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed May 6 16:04:44 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 14:04:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 32-bit clean SE30 ROMs (was Re: Chips that changed the world) In-Reply-To: <4A011902.9080700@hawkmountain.net> References: <200905052243.n45MhPx4012308@floodgap.com> <4A011902.9080700@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 May 2009, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > David Griffith wrote: >> On Tue, 5 May 2009, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> >>>> So speaking of the SE30, I've got one but not a 32-bit clean ROM for it. >>>> What model Mac do I need to borrow a ROM from to make it 32-bit clean? >>> >>> A IIsi should do, but good luck finding one with a ROM SIMM. Use MODE32 >>> and >>> be happy. It should be downloadable from all kinds of places. >>> >>> http://lowendmac.com/daystar/pages/dsd_products/support/ts_mode32.html >> >> While we're on the subject of diddling around with old Mac one-piece >> machines, would someone please tell me where I can get some replacement >> chassis screws? > > From what model, and which screws ? I received a parts SE30 at one > point (broken tube, damage case (from a drop)). I think I may have the > screws around (if I can find them). I'm not sure about the model. I need the screws that go under the handle. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 6 16:23:53 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 May 2009 14:23:53 -0700 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: References: <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net>, <713F77AC4D17@dunfield.com>, Message-ID: <4A019D79.8276.15610E3B@cclist.sydex.com> My email client (Pegasus) started eating outgoing mail yesterday, so I'm going to summarize what I said in a message that was obviously posted to the bit bucket. On the subject of floppy controllers, etc... All legacy floppy controllers in 100% "PC compatible" systems are based on the Intel 8272/NEC 765. The systems that use other controller families (e.g. the Sany MBC 550) are not considered to be "PC Compatible". But the 765 is a late 70's era chip essentially designed for use with 8" drive setups. It can poll a bank of drives and alert the system when one has changed state; it can perform overlapped seeks and is "intelligent" in that it pretty much has the IBM 3740 format "built in". Data separator and write precompensation logic, as in other chips of the day were provided by external logic. Compared to it the WD 17/27xx chips are brain-dead (although by that virtue, very flexible). For its time, the 765 is a tour de force. Used on a 5.25" or 3.5" drive system, however, the benefits are pretty useless. Small drives have motors that need to be turned on and off and don't provide a "ready" signal. So the "drive ready" line is tied high (meaning that if the drive being addressed isn't ready, the 765 simply hangs); there's no motor control line on the 765, so that must be provided by an external register. That same register also has the drive select logic, so the unit select pins (as well as the head load signal) on the 765 are NC. The external register that controls the motor signals and the drive select also has 2 bits that allows the controller to tristate the interrupt and DMA request lines, as well as to reset the controller. The PC AT added another register to allow one to change the datarate (for high-density drives) and monitor the "disk changed" signal line that many drives have. It wasn't too long before chip makers started integrating all of the external logic with the 765 core. The WD37C65 was probably the first such chip that contained all of the external logic (data separator, precomp, motor control, drive select and data rate control). Later on, more features were added (1 Mbps data rate for 2.88 MB drives, special circuitry for floppy tape control, data FIFO, additional configuration registers, etc.). Some of the integration wasn't done too well. FM support is one of those areas--the Intel 82077 initially had pretty good FM support, but the 82077AA-1 has it broken. The Compaticard IV was designed around the 82077 chip, but when reports of the new 82077AA-1 not working started to drift in, Micrsolutions changed to the pin-compatible National 84077. Basically, the CC IV is a PC-AT style controller that brings all 4 drives out to connectors and adds some beefier (74LS38 OC buffers) drivers for use with 8" drives. There is also an auxiliary register that provides a couple of bits on the connector for control of such things as Reduced Write Current on 8" drives. And it allows for user- selectable I/O port address, DMA and interrupt as well as an on- board BIOS option ROM. There are other floppy controller cards with selectable I/O port addresses (or at least to a "secondary" address), but all others do not allow changing from DMA 2, IRQ 6. Nor is driver support provided than for the controller functioning as the primary one. Hope this helps, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 6 16:45:23 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 14:45:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Datex floppy drive emulator - flash based replacement for magnetic media In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090506143415.F33055@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 6 May 2009, John S wrote: > I came across this product on the web: > http://www.datexdsm.com/emulator/docs/DTX200en.html > with a review here: > http://www.storagenewsletter.com/news/disk/datastorage-floppy-disk-drive-emulator-datex That is a press release, NOT a review. 'course a review by most of the popular press would be even less useful. Unfortunately, > It will be mechanically adapted for your larger ones. The DTX200 is > pre-programmed to have the same features with the floppy drive to > replace. Each floppy disk drive using a specific connection technology, > an adapter card will be developed for each of your floppy drives. implies that it is NOT a drop-in replacement "for ANY drive", but that they think that they can build one for any specific drive that you want. But, that seems to eliminate the possibility of switching it from one machine to another, or carrying one in your toolbox and plugging it into whatever you encounter. It does, however, seem from their description that it is not limited to DOS device drivers, etc., and should work with most soft-sectored, IBM/WD style Shugart interface machines. It seems VERY unlikely that it will work for anything "non-standard", such as the Sony 600RPM 3.5", etc. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed May 6 17:14:31 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 06 May 2009 23:14:31 +0100 Subject: Panasonic PD LM-R650J In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A020BC7.6080800@philpem.me.uk> Zane H. Healy wrote: > I am looking for info on "Panasonic PD LM-R650J" optical media, and on what > kind of drives can read it. I gather it is a 650MB Cartridge of some sort. Does it have a little "PD" logo on the metal shutter? If so, it's probably one of the Panasonic "PD" (phase-change digital) discs. I remember reading about these in the mid-1990s, just before CD-RWs became widespread. They never really caught on (I certainly don't recall anyone selling the drives or the discs) and AIUI died off some time in the early '00s. There's a (small) amount about them on Wikipedia: Basically, they store 650MB of data, and work similarly to a CD-RW (i.e. phase-change recording). You can read, write and erase them a few thousand times, but they're not readable in standard CD drives. Apparently a first-generation Panasonic DVD-RAM drive (that'll be the ones that take the big cartridges) can read them, but I suspect finding one of those in working condition might be difficult. Finding a working PD drive would probably be even more difficult... optical drives don't usually stay working for long IME. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From keithvz at verizon.net Wed May 6 17:54:55 2009 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Wed, 06 May 2009 18:54:55 -0400 Subject: Datex floppy drive emulator - flash based replacement for magnetic media In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A02153F.3020607@verizon.net> John S wrote: > http://www.datexdsm.com/emulator/docs/DTX200en.html > > with a review here: > > http://www.storagenewsletter.com/news/disk/datastorage-floppy-disk-drive-emulator-datex > and at only 450 euro each if you buy 2 or more am not likely to find out in a hurry). Eeesh. Price of the DTX200 is ?800 for the fist connection to a PC, and then ?450. The following options are sold between ?100 and ?350: * multi-frequency * multi-capacity * up to 10 diskettes on the same CF card with addressing * up to 64 diskettes on the same CF card with addressing Does anyone else think this is highway robbery? Jeez. Keith From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 6 18:01:21 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 19:01:21 -0400 Subject: Datex floppy drive emulator - flash based replacement for magnetic media In-Reply-To: <4A02153F.3020607@verizon.net> References: <4A02153F.3020607@verizon.net> Message-ID: On May 6, 2009, at 6:54 PM, Keith wrote: >> http://www.datexdsm.com/emulator/docs/DTX200en.html >> with a review here: >> http://www.storagenewsletter.com/news/disk/datastorage-floppy-disk- >> drive-emulator-datex > > > >> and at only 450 euro each if you buy 2 or more am not likely to >> find out in a hurry). > > Eeesh. > > Price of the DTX200 is ?800 for the fist connection to a PC, and > then ?450. > The following options are sold between ?100 and ?350: > > * multi-frequency > * multi-capacity > * up to 10 diskettes on the same CF card with addressing > * up to 64 diskettes on the same CF card with addressing > > > Does anyone else think this is highway robbery? > > Jeez. It sounds to me like the suits are trying to recoup their entire development cost in the first few sales. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From lproven at gmail.com Wed May 6 18:15:39 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 00:15:39 +0100 Subject: Free MCA stuff In-Reply-To: References: <01C9AD61.29652FE0@host-208-72-122-195.dyn.295.ca> <1A157ECE8BDC46C9A934011E4FBE7A11@game> <575131af0905061311x5ea627c5g3da1461198b79f7e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0905061615y654a8af1xc2e65cd265d9059e@mail.gmail.com> 2009/5/6 Teo Zenios : > So what is left? What's gone: - 1 x IBM ext floppy controller - IBM dual RS232 card - EIZO ISA graphics - 1 x external display card - 1 x ESDI controller So most of it's still in my garage! :?( If it will aid in ID, I can take & post photos, although I only have a cellphone camera, so quality will not be amazing. I may be able to borrow a better one if need be. Here's the all-in-1 list I just posted on the VCF forum earlier: *Item* - 2 of these: 83X9648 RAW CD FCC CLASS A - SEE MANUAL Sticker: 83X9649 55Q A50187 5831 Single BNC connector Main IC says: Toshiba 6320055 T7414 Japan 8726FAI (IRMA card?) *Item:* DCA 000047 Rev A Sticker: *KE 000N45* Main IC says: dca 02-99908-000 17GO32AT0210 JAPAN 8746EAI Single BNC connector (IRMA card?) *Item* - same card, Rev D *Item:* Quadram Assy # 17-9094-01 REV 2T-R2 MA21020139 P/N 01-9094-00/R2 Main IC: CHIPS P82C570 JAPAN 6037-J 7Z 09 61 A Single BNC connector (IRMA card?) *Item - 6 of these:* IBM 16/4Mb Token Ring adaptor 3/4 length with blue plastic extender for F/L slot IBM FRU 93F0331 *Item:* IBM 16/4Mb Token Ring adaptor IBM FRU 74F9415 1/2 length card *Item - 3 of these:* Madge 16/4Mb Token Ring adaptor Smart 16/4 MC Ringnode (S16) *Item:* IBM external floppy controller card (?) External D37 female port; internal IDC 34-pin connector FCC ID ANO9JW6451007 *Item - 2 of these:* Token Ring card, maybe? Very heavy, densely-packed card External D9 female port Covered in big ICs - Motorola 6413006, OKI M75528, some RAMs, some ROMs #1 says: 83X7488 A 7 411 UH #2 says: 83X7488 A 7 401 TI *Item:* Some form of disk controller IBM FRU 85F0002 External mini-Amphenol type connector, approx 60 way Internal 50-contact edge connector with central slot 3 ROMs, 20MHz & 25MHz oscillators *Item - 9 of these:* MFG LOC 1419 93F0368 EC:40484 2117 Main IC: TI 92F6454 CF63363PCM E 80081 9237 External BNC connector - more IRMA cards, maybe? *Item - 2 of these:* More IRMA cards? External BNC connector 74F3460 23-30415 1833 Main IC: Toshiba 16F0291 T9444B JAPAN9125EAI *Item:* Another IRMA card? External BNC MGF LOC 1419 33G5395 C40484 3333 Main IC: TI 92F6454 CF63363PCM N 82676 9251 *Memory expansion boards* These look to me like the RAM expansions for the planar of the Model 80 or possibly Model 60 - the tower-case PS/2s They're about 10cm x 11cm, covered in silver cubical packages like nothing I've seen before. 2 are: 72X7475 A49954 V0011 - 18 devices 1 is: 90X8670 55Q A79395 5991 Also 18 devices 1 is: 4098539 A58606 V0011 This is just 12 devices -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Wed May 6 18:22:39 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 00:22:39 +0100 Subject: Panasonic PD LM-R650J In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <575131af0905061622i5b914fafx23f0d7be095bbfb8@mail.gmail.com> 2009/5/6 Zane H. Healy : > I am looking for info on "Panasonic PD LM-R650J" optical media, and on what > kind of drives can read it. ?I gather it is a 650MB Cartridge of some sort. > > Zane Just sold 2 of 'em on eBay, plus a dozen media. Still have 1 or 2 disks knocking around somewhere. Dual-purpose drive. Acted as a standard CD-ROM on one LUN, and on the other, was a R/W optical drive with CD-sized disks that came in a permanent cartridge. Had 2 access LEDs on the front, or 1 that changed colour. The drive could detect which type of disk was inserted, so on a Windows box, either (say) D: worked - R/O - if a CD was inserted, or E: worked - R/W - if a PD cart was inserted, but never both at once. This screwed up the boot process on some BIOSes - you needed to insert a CD, any CD, before power-on, so that the drive was active and detected *in CD-mode* by the BIOS (I presume as a drive-ready signal or something like that) so that you could boot off it. I've used 'em with DOS, Windows 9x, NT, Linux and FreeBSD - they were quite handy, before CDR and CDRWs were remotely affordable. I don't remember how much either drives or media cost, but when CD-burners were thousands, these things were hundreds. A PD held 650MB so you could fit the entire contents of the average CD-ROM on one. Before the days of overburning, anyway. I had one internal EIDE and one external SCSI. I planned to use them, for the last time, for server backup & data transfer to a web server in a DMZ, but I never got round to setting it up... So in my last clearout, I flogged 'em off. Anything else I can tell you? I'm afraid my knowledge is usage experience, rather than technical detail. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From RichA at vulcan.com Wed May 6 18:23:37 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 16:23:37 -0700 Subject: Panasonic PD LM-R650J In-Reply-To: <4A020BC7.6080800@philpem.me.uk> References: <4A020BC7.6080800@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: > From: Philip Pemberton > Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 3:15 PM > Zane H. Healy wrote: >> I am looking for info on "Panasonic PD LM-R650J" optical media, and >> on what kind of drives can read it. I gather it is a 650MB Cartridge >> of some sort. [ snip ] > Apparently a first-generation Panasonic DVD-RAM drive (that'll be > the ones that take the big cartridges) can read them, but I suspect > finding one of those in working condition might be difficult. Just out of curiosity, who's the manufacturer of the DVD-RAM drives used in the first G4 Macintosh systems? My 9 year old drive works just fine, if that helps at all. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 6 18:28:15 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 19:28:15 -0400 Subject: Datex floppy drive emulator - flash based replacement for magnetic media In-Reply-To: References: <4A02153F.3020607@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 7:01 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 6, 2009, at 6:54 PM, Keith wrote: >> Price of the DTX200 is ?800 for the fist connection to a PC, and then >> ?450. >> The following options are sold between ?100 and ?350: >> >> ? ?* multi-frequency >> ? ?* multi-capacity >> ? ?* up to 10 diskettes on the same CF card with addressing >> ? ?* up to 64 diskettes on the same CF card with addressing >> >> >> Does anyone else think this is highway robbery? >> >> Jeez. > > ?It sounds to me like the suits are trying to recoup their entire > development cost in the first few sales. With prices like that, there may only be a first few sales. Of course, it's also possible that even if the price were half, there wouldn't be enough sales to pay for development. I've run into that working for small companies - you do the research, design, develop, and test the product, then only ever sell 10. When it happens more than once, usually the doors close soon after. -ethan From lynchaj at yahoo.com Wed May 6 18:46:07 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 19:46:07 -0400 Subject: S-100 chassis development Message-ID: <4FA1ADC1F118445FA56F14F35E24909F@andrewdesktop> Hi! Is anyone interested in making a sheet metal chassis for the home brew S-100 backplane project? Obviously, you'd need sheet metal design and fabrication skills, facilities, etc. If anyone is interested please contact me. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From sethm at loomcom.com Wed May 6 19:07:06 2009 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 17:07:06 -0700 Subject: Datex floppy drive emulator - flash based replacement for magnetic media In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's a pretty densely packed board for something that's "just" supposed to emulate floppies! Lots of power control going on there in addition to the honking great ALTERA FPGA and CPLD pair dominating things. I'd love to take one apart and see how they designed it. If I were them, I'd pay Woz to redesign it using two 74LS04s, a 74LS138, and an EPROM ;-) -Seth From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 6 19:16:21 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 17:16:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Datex floppy drive emulator - flash based replacement for magnetic media In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090506171451.D35755@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 6 May 2009, Seth Morabito wrote: > That's a pretty densely packed board for something that's "just" > supposed to emulate floppies! Lots of power control going on there in > addition to the honking great ALTERA FPGA and CPLD pair dominating > things. I'd love to take one apart and see how they designed it. perhaps that was necessary in order to keep the MTBE from being different from the drive spec From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 6 20:48:36 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 06 May 2009 20:48:36 -0500 Subject: Panasonic PD LM-R650J In-Reply-To: References: <4A020BC7.6080800@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090506204736.03c92e00@mail.threedee.com> At 06:23 PM 5/6/2009, Rich Alderson wrote: >Just out of curiosity, who's the manufacturer of the DVD-RAM drives used >in the first G4 Macintosh systems? My 9 year old drive works just fine, >if that helps at all. Matsushita LF-D211A in mine, date 10/2000. - John From tosteve at yahoo.com Wed May 6 21:56:50 2009 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 19:56:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FREE CP/M hardware,software,manuals in Southern California (OC) Message-ID: <315759.95156.qm@web110616.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I have some old hardware, software, manuals to donate to whoever will pick them up ASAP. Some names: Morrow Design Zenith TeleVideo Fujitsu Kaypro II CP/M software,manuals Thanks- Steve in Aliso Viejo 92656 From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed May 6 17:58:46 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 18:58:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <713F77AC4D17@dunfield.com> References: <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net> <713F77AC4D17@dunfield.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 May 2009, Dave Dunfield wrote: > I'm not sure what you mean by "mapped as drive D:" - Is this with the DOS > driver? Unit 2 (in 0..3) would be C: for ImageDisk (Like Chuck suggested > earlier, ImageDisk's A-D represents units 0-3 on the primary floppy > controller - NOT any sort of OS mapping). I'd recommend NOT using any extra > drivers with ImageDisk (it talks directly to the hardware, and external > drivers can interfere with that if they are triggered on an interrupt). Dave's message gave me enough hints to (finally) get ImageDisk running with the Compaticard IV: 1. Disable on-board FDC in BIOS 2. Jumper CC4 to port address 370h 3. Disable CC4 ROM 4. Remove CC4.SYS from CONFIG.SYS 5. Reference the 8" drives (units 2 and 3 on the controller) as 'C:' and 'D:', even though C: is my hard disk and D: is the CD-ROM drive (as far as the BIOS is concerned anyway). I had tried various subsets, but never all those things together. In particular (5) is a bit unintuitive. It's more than a little scary to invoke write or format operations with drive C: specified to ImageDisk. IMHO, it would be much clearer to reference them by unit number. But maybe that's just me... The testfdc program still fails everything when targeting the 8" drives and I believe I know why. From the sound of things, it tries to do everything on the last tracks (lowest linear velocity) and has it in it's head that there are 80 available. I can hear it slapping against the stop on the 8" drives - at least that's what it sounds like. Be that as it may, all tests fail with "Data not found". Once I began to suspect this was a red-herring, I tried some real read and write operations. Lo and behold: Everything is just fine! I'm able to create bootable diskettes from the .imd files. Life is Good. I hope this helps others in the same boat as me hardware-wise. Steve -- From doc at vaxen.net Wed May 6 18:18:42 2009 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 18:18:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Datex floppy drive emulator - flash based replacement for magnetic media In-Reply-To: References: <4A02153F.3020607@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4A0219B1.20506@vaxen.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 6, 2009, at 6:54 PM, Keith wrote: >>> http://www.datexdsm.com/emulator/docs/DTX200en.html >>> with a review here: >>> http://www.storagenewsletter.com/news/disk/datastorage-floppy-disk-drive-emulator-datex >>> >> >> >> >>> and at only 450 euro each if you buy 2 or more am not likely to find >>> out in a hurry). >> >> Eeesh. >> >> Price of the DTX200 is ?800 for the fist connection to a PC, and then >> ?450. >> The following options are sold between ?100 and ?350: >> >> * multi-frequency >> * multi-capacity >> * up to 10 diskettes on the same CF card with addressing >> * up to 64 diskettes on the same CF card with addressing >> >> >> Does anyone else think this is highway robbery? >> >> Jeez. > > It sounds to me like the suits are trying to recoup their entire > development cost in the first few sales. And how much did your Z80 thermal bug sell for? For whatever it's worth, NO, I DON'T think that's robbery, if it does what they claim. A very low-volume item - which this is - has to have a very high mark-up, and I don't see "North Pole" anywhere in these guys' address. Doc From bpettitx at comcast.net Wed May 6 23:45:49 2009 From: bpettitx at comcast.net (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 21:45:49 -0700 Subject: FREE CP/M hardware,software,manuals in Southern California (OC) Message-ID: <5BC1BCE188F443AF92A032DABCF5708F@RosemarysPC> Steve, I am coming down to Leguna Woods next weekend. We have a house there and need to clean it up some for resale. If nobody else claims them, I will bring everything back and have Al Kossaw scan the material for bitsavers. Billy Pettit From amouses at gmail.com Thu May 7 03:48:38 2009 From: amouses at gmail.com (Marcus Bennett) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 10:48:38 +0200 Subject: Datex floppy drive emulator - flash based replacement for magnetic media Message-ID: <95ddf3400905070148x4696beefkb91e8e0227f0330@mail.gmail.com> Regarding Datex. My initial elation at finally finding a drop in, commercially available solid state replacement floppy or MFM hard disk emulator, was like everybody else shorted out when I saw the prices. I have commented on this before in this forum. And, as before I'll comment that I maintain a listing of all such products. It is here: http://maben.homeip.net:8217/static/S100/DISK/index.html If you think the Datex floppy emulator is expensive, just ask for a quote on the MFM hard drive emulator :-( In summary, Datex claims to have a floppy and MFM hard disk emulator but due to reasons of cost I've never been able to contact anybody who actually had one. Many other Floppy disk and even some MFM hard drive emulators are out there as enthusiast builds, but are generally not available, or are not drop in replacements, or only support particular hardware e.g. Commodore Amiga. All ends up in a lot of frustration if you ask me! I am not sure which is more evil: posting up a device that does just what I want (but I can't buy), or one that I can buy (but I can't afford). regards marcus b. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu May 7 04:25:15 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 11:25:15 +0200 Subject: Datex floppy drive emulator - flash based replacement for magnetic media In-Reply-To: <95ddf3400905070148x4696beefkb91e8e0227f0330@mail.gmail.com> References: <95ddf3400905070148x4696beefkb91e8e0227f0330@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <95F440762678482BB9B68CA36A9A49E0@xp1800> Keep in mind this is not a hobbyist replacement product, but a high-end industrial replacement. This means the demands and regulations the emulator has to met with, are much higher then a hobbyist or consumer product. So the cost of developement and support are much higher then the former. Datex has mostly industrial or profesional customers, who will pay the price they ask for a product like this. If you got a radar or guidance system or industrial computer, witch need a replacement for its 'obsolete' 8 inch drive, you're not going to make this your self, but call a firm like Datex or Strobedata (http://www.strobedata.com/home/home.html) to fix it. And you pay the price they ask ............. And the after 10 or 15 years, it's finding its way to epay or a surplus market and ............ -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Marcus Bennett > Verzonden: donderdag 7 mei 2009 10:49 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Datex floppy drive emulator - flash based > replacement for magnetic media > > Regarding Datex. > > My initial elation at finally finding a drop in, commercially > available solid state replacement floppy or MFM hard disk > emulator, was like everybody else shorted out when I saw the prices. > > I have commented on this before in this forum. > > And, as before I'll comment that I maintain a listing of all > such products. > It is here: > > http://maben.homeip.net:8217/static/S100/DISK/index.html > > If you think the Datex floppy emulator is expensive, just > ask for a quote on the MFM hard drive emulator :-( > > In summary, Datex claims to have a floppy and MFM hard disk > emulator but due to reasons of cost I've never been able to > contact anybody who actually had one. > > Many other Floppy disk and even some MFM hard drive emulators > are out there as enthusiast builds, but are generally not > available, or are not drop in replacements, or only support > particular hardware e.g. Commodore Amiga. > > All ends up in a lot of frustration if you ask me! I am not > sure which is more evil: posting up a device that does just > what I want (but I can't buy), or one that I can buy (but I > can't afford). > > > > regards marcus b. > From dave09 at dunfield.com Thu May 7 06:34:30 2009 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 06:34:30 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: References: <713F77AC4D17@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <7669958652F4@dunfield.com> > Dave's message gave me enough hints to (finally) get ImageDisk running > with the Compaticard IV: > > 1. Disable on-board FDC in BIOS > 2. Jumper CC4 to port address 370h These steps *may* not be necessary - ImageDisk has a /S(address) option to select a secondary controller - it does not however currently support use of a different IRQ or DMA (mainly because I have no controllers which allow me to change these so I would have no way to test that functionality). > 3. Disable CC4 ROM > 4. Remove CC4.SYS from CONFIG.SYS Since IMD talks directly to the floppy controller, it makes sense to remove other software which may try to communicate with the controller at the same time. If the compaticard software is well behaved it may not be necessary to remove it, but I don't know this. > 5. Reference the 8" drives (units 2 and 3 on the controller) as 'C:' > and 'D:', even though C: is my hard disk and D: is the CD-ROM > drive (as far as the BIOS is concerned anyway). Actually, as far as BIOS is concerned, floppy drives are 0x00-0x7F and hard drive are 0x80-0xFF - check the INT 0x13 functions - there is a clear distinction between floppy and hard drives. Also BIOS does NOT know about DOS mappings - the above reference physical controllers and physical units in the order encountered by BIOS. > I had tried various subsets, but never all those things together. In > particular (5) is a bit unintuitive. It's more than a little scary to > invoke write or format operations with drive C: specified to ImageDisk. > > IMHO, it would be much clearer to reference them by unit number. But > maybe that's just me... The trouble is that many PC users don't know what a unit number is, and this means more questions for me. "in the beginning" ImageDisk only supported the two standard drives defined by IBM and calling them A and B made sense, BIOS setup program and many DISK utilities which work through BIOS do this all the time and people rarely get confused - on 99+% of systems with one controller and only 1 or 2 physical drives, DOS maps them to A and B and everything matches up. This is by far still the most common ImageDisk configuration. Then someone asked for support for a common extension which allows two more drives on a controller by making use of free bits in the control registers which line-up nicely with were two more drives "should be". - This made sense to me so I added it, although you have to either explicitly specify one of the extended drives or tell ImageDisk that you have 4 drives to be able to select it - it made sense (to me) to call these C and D. To be honest it never occured to me that someone would confuse this with DOS mappings - I've tried to be very clear that ImageDisk works with the physical disk controller and NOT though DOS or BIOS. ImageDisk cannot and never could perform direct or destructive operations to a hard drive. The help clarify this point, I've added the following section to the help file with links from the "Settings" drive selection and the command line drive selections: ------------------------------------------------------------------- ImageDisk works by directly accessing the floppy disk controller. It does NOT know or care about DOS "drive mappings". Drive letters A-D refer to the physical drive unit numbers 0-3 on the the floppy disk controller, NOT drives A-D as mapped by DOS. For most systems having two drives on the primary controller, drive A and B will happen refer to the same drives as DOS - a few floppy controllers support a non-standard extension allowing up to four drives, and on these C and D will refer to the additional drives. Drive C is *NOT* your hard drive. ------------------------------------------------------------------- > The testfdc program still fails everything when targeting the 8" drives > and I believe I know why. From the sound of things, it tries to do > everything on the last tracks (lowest linear velocity) and has it in it's > head that there are 80 available. I can hear it slapping against the stop > on the 8" drives - at least that's what it sounds like. Be that as it > may, all tests fail with "Data not found". TestFDC doesn't support 8" drives - it's not intended to test drives, it's intended to test FDC's (Floppy Disk Controllers) - to make it easy, it gets information about the drive from BIOS (and BIOS cannot report an 8" drive) - the idea is that you can test a PC before ever taking it apart (with standard drives) to determine if it's worth hauling home and using as a drive station. Either an 5.25" HD (best choice since it's the same RPM as 8") or a 3.5" HD drive will allow you to test the FDC capabilities at a 500khz data rate which is what you need to run 8" drives. > Once I began to suspect this was a red-herring, I tried some real read and > write operations. Lo and behold: Everything is just fine! I'm able to > create bootable diskettes from the .imd files. > > Life is Good. I hope this helps others in the same boat as me > hardware-wise. I'm glad you got it working ... Hopefully it will prove useful to you, even though you may not agree with the particular path on which has evolved. Dave -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu May 7 06:45:24 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 04:45:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: driving a Kaypro CRT Message-ID: I'm pondering gutting a Kaypro to put a P112 inside. This would necessarily require coming up with a way to drive a CRT. Has anyone here done such a thing? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu May 7 07:52:23 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 05:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: driving a Kaypro CRT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <483853.18681.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 5/7/09, David Griffith wrote: > From: David Griffith > Subject: driving a Kaypro CRT > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Thursday, May 7, 2009, 7:45 AM > I'm pondering gutting a Kaypro to put a P112 inside. > This would necessarily require coming up with a way to drive > a CRT. Has anyone here done such a thing? IIRC, the Kaypro's monitor is very nearly CGA - ttl level monochrome, 15.75khz NTSC sync rates. Something capable of outputting composite video would be an easy hack - just locate the sync signals on the board before they get combined with the video, and seperate them. -Ian From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu May 7 06:00:35 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 07:00:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: References: <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net> <713F77AC4D17@dunfield.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 May 2009, Steven Hirsch wrote: > 2. Jumper CC4 to port address 370h Chuck Guzis pointed out that I specified the wrong address. That should be '3F0h' (370h is the secondary address). -- From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu May 7 08:03:42 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 May 2009 08:03:42 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <7669958652F4@dunfield.com> References: <713F77AC4D17@dunfield.com> <7669958652F4@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <4A02DC2E.60605@gmail.com> Dave Dunfield wrote: > Actually, as far as BIOS is concerned, floppy drives are 0x00-0x7F and > hard drive are 0x80-0xFF - check the INT 0x13 functions - there is a clear > distinction between floppy and hard drives. Also BIOS does NOT know about > DOS mappings - the above reference physical controllers and physical > units in the order encountered by BIOS. I've seen quite a few BIOSes that *do* make reference "C:" and "D:" though, presumably because they assume the user will be running DOS/Windows and this is somehow helpful to them :( >> IMHO, it would be much clearer to reference them by unit number. But >> maybe that's just me... > > The trouble is that many PC users don't know what a unit number is, and > this means more questions for me. Would asking for feedback on that be helpful? My guess would be that most IMD users are somewhat technical if they know their way around a CLI (DOS) in the first place, and are screwing around with ancient disk formats. Given what the program's used for, and that it runs under a non-mainstream OS, I'm not sure that it'd be harmful to drop reference to DOS's concept of drive assignment. cheers Jules From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu May 7 08:10:25 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 10:10:25 -0300 Subject: Datex floppy drive emulator - flash based replacement for magnetic media References: <95ddf3400905070148x4696beefkb91e8e0227f0330@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0b5401c9cf15$ef943460$fb2019bb@desktaba> > Many other Floppy disk and even some MFM hard drive emulators are out > there > as enthusiast builds, but are generally not available, or are not drop in > replacements, or only support particular hardware e.g. Commodore Amiga. > All ends up in a lot of frustration if you ask me! I am not sure which is > more evil: posting up a device that does just what I want (but I can't > buy), or one that I can buy (but I can't afford). There ARE free floppy disk emulators around, just pick up the schematic and build one :o) From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu May 7 08:25:19 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 May 2009 08:25:19 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <4A019D79.8276.15610E3B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net>, <713F77AC4D17@dunfield.com>, <4A019D79.8276.15610E3B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A02E13F.2000809@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > All legacy floppy controllers in 100% "PC compatible" systems are > based on the Intel 8272/NEC 765. I keep thinking it'd be interesting to hear what folk think the IBM PC *should* have been - although that could descend into utter chaos :-) It does seem like the design was pretty compromised* - I'm curious as to what folk think should have been done with the hardware of the time whilst remaining in roughly the same price range... * Although wasn't the original intention for the 5150 to be more of an intelligent terminal than a standalone machine? That might explain things, as I suppose in that capacity it did what was needed. cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 7 11:45:58 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 May 2009 09:45:58 -0700 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <4A02E13F.2000809@gmail.com> References: <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net>, <4A019D79.8276.15610E3B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A02E13F.2000809@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A02ADD6.15135.1988FCCF@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 May 2009 at 8:25, Jules Richardson wrote: > I keep thinking it'd be interesting to hear what folk think the IBM PC > *should* have been - although that could descend into utter chaos :-) > > It does seem like the design was pretty compromised* - I'm curious as > to what folk think should have been done with the hardware of the time > whilst remaining in roughly the same price range... Given that there were only two real choices for floppy controllers (WD 17/27 series and the NEC 765) at the time of the 5150 launch, IBM didn't do too badly. I suspect they also got a good price break for staying with Intel (the 8272 is just the 765 by a different name). I've built up WD-based controllers for the PC and those chips have their own issues, although not as contorted as putting the 765 to work driving 5.25" floppies in my opinion. It's not a problem with a clear answer. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 7 12:02:10 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 13:02:10 -0400 Subject: Datex floppy drive emulator - flash based replacement for magnetic media In-Reply-To: <4A0219B1.20506@vaxen.net> References: <4A02153F.3020607@verizon.net> <4A0219B1.20506@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <742694A0-FB01-42C3-8583-A611E9B4DD51@neurotica.com> On May 6, 2009, at 7:18 PM, Doc wrote: >>> Does anyone else think this is highway robbery? >>> >>> Jeez. >> It sounds to me like the suits are trying to recoup their entire >> development cost in the first few sales. > > And how much did your Z80 thermal bug sell for? eZ80F91, big difference. ;) But, $149/ea, which was about $20.00 profit in the quantities I was building. (probably not quite the answer you were expecting) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu May 7 13:47:18 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 May 2009 13:47:18 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <4A02ADD6.15135.1988FCCF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net>, <4A019D79.8276.15610E3B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A02E13F.2000809@gmail.com> <4A02ADD6.15135.1988FCCF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A032CB6.8080007@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 7 May 2009 at 8:25, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> I keep thinking it'd be interesting to hear what folk think the IBM PC >> *should* have been - although that could descend into utter chaos :-) >> >> It does seem like the design was pretty compromised* - I'm curious as >> to what folk think should have been done with the hardware of the time >> whilst remaining in roughly the same price range... > > Given that there were only two real choices for floppy controllers > (WD 17/27 series and the NEC 765) at the time of the 5150 launch, IBM > didn't do too badly. No, I suppose not. I wonder if they ever toyed with the idea of rolling their own - perhaps a board containing a little 8-bitter which was responsible for a few other useful functions (RS232, parallel maybe) too. I suppose RAM/ROM costs around then made it unworkable even if they had the skills readily on-tap (not to mention that it probably wouldn't fit in with the idea of what the PC was supposed to be!) > I suspect they also got a good price break for > staying with Intel (the 8272 is just the 765 by a different name). Hmm, that's a possibility. I wonder if they ever considered moving to a different CPU / support family in the very early days... > It's not a problem with a clear answer. No, definitely not. I suppose I was thinking not just about floppy controller, but about the CPU choice, system bus, video hardware etc. too; the PC seemed a bit long in the tooth for the launch date - and perhaps relied more on IBM marketing clout than anything to achieve success. I just find it interesting to ponder about what other companies might have done if given IBM's resources (and assuming a similar target price point, of course!) cheers Jules From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 7 14:30:30 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 07 May 2009 13:30:30 -0600 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <4A032CB6.8080007@gmail.com> References: <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net>, <4A019D79.8276.15610E3B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A02E13F.2000809@gmail.com> <4A02ADD6.15135.1988FCCF@cclist.sydex.com> <4A032CB6.8080007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A0336D6.4040600@jetnet.ab.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: > No, definitely not. I suppose I was thinking not just about floppy > controller, but about the CPU choice, system bus, video hardware etc. > too; the PC seemed a bit long in the tooth for the launch date - and > perhaps relied more on IBM marketing clout than anything to achieve > success. I just find it interesting to ponder about what other companies > might have done if given IBM's resources (and assuming a similar target > price point, of course!) $$$$ PROFT for US ... not the buyer. > cheers > > Jules For a alternate world ... Had the PDP 11 been reduced to a simple IC design and operation code set, DEC may have got the PC market. Ben. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 7 14:35:31 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 15:35:31 -0400 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <4A0336D6.4040600@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net>, <4A019D79.8276.15610E3B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A02E13F.2000809@gmail.com> <4A02ADD6.15135.1988FCCF@cclist.sydex.com> <4A032CB6.8080007@gmail.com> <4A0336D6.4040600@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On May 7, 2009, at 3:30 PM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > For a alternate world ... Had the PDP 11 been reduced to a simple > IC design > and operation code set, DEC may have got the PC market. Umm...T-11? F-11? J-11? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 7 14:46:53 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 07 May 2009 13:46:53 -0600 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: References: <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net>, <4A019D79.8276.15610E3B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A02E13F.2000809@gmail.com> <4A02ADD6.15135.1988FCCF@cclist.sydex.com> <4A032CB6.8080007@gmail.com> <4A0336D6.4040600@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4A033AAD.3040501@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 7, 2009, at 3:30 PM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> For a alternate world ... Had the PDP 11 been reduced to a simple IC >> design >> and operation code set, DEC may have got the PC market. > > Umm...T-11? F-11? J-11? I was thinking a NEW board set with just 18 bits of dynamic memory but still the split I&D spaces. DEC, Intel and Motorola where the only designs I know of that could access more than 64KB and still be a 8/16 bit CPU at the time. A 16 bit 2901 design may have hit the market too but I can't think of good instruction set for it. Ben. > -Dave > From julianskidmore at yahoo.com Thu May 7 14:55:00 2009 From: julianskidmore at yahoo.com (Julian Skidmore) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 12:55:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MC3418 CVSD Encoding (Was: Re: Looking for IBM PS/2 or PCjr SpeechAdapter Tech Ref Message-ID: <93943.11045.qm@web37103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > I understand the > principle behind CVSD encoding and decoding, but not enough to start > writing code. I want to write some code takes CVSD encoded data and > displays the waveform on a screen, for a sound editor. CVSD decoding is a simple algorithm, here's a version which works one bit at a time: typedef unsigned short ushort; typedef unsigned short bit; // should be a range 0..1. #define kCvsdMaxGain 8 #define kCvsdIntegrator 15 ushort gCvsdDecGain=1, gCvsdDecRefSample=32768; ushort gCvsdDecRecentBits=0xaaaa; ushort CvsdDec(bit aBit) { gCvsdDecRecentBits=(gCvsdDecRecentBits<<1)|aBit; gCvsdDecRefSample+= (aBit==1)? gCvsdDecGain:-gCvsdDecGain; if(((gCvsdDecRecentBits&kCvsdIntegrator)==kCvsdIntegrator) || ((gCvsdDecRecentBits&7)==0) ) { if(gCvsdDecGain>1; return gCvsdDecRefSample; } All you have to do is pick the right maximum gain and integrator. Somewhat wrong values will still produce something recognisable. -cheers from julz @P From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu May 7 14:50:22 2009 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 07 May 2009 15:50:22 -0400 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <4A033AAD.3040501@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net>, <4A019D79.8276.15610E3B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A02E13F.2000809@gmail.com> <4A02ADD6.15135.1988FCCF@cclist.sydex.com> <4A032CB6.8080007@gmail.com> <4A0336D6.4040600@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A033AAD.3040501@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4A033B7E.60802@verizon.net> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: >> On May 7, 2009, at 3:30 PM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >>> For a alternate world ... Had the PDP 11 been reduced to a simple IC >>> design >>> and operation code set, DEC may have got the PC market. >> >> Umm...T-11? F-11? J-11? > > I was thinking a NEW board set with just 18 bits of dynamic memory > but still the split I&D spaces. DEC, Intel and Motorola where the only > designs I know of that could access more than 64KB and still be > a 8/16 bit CPU at the time. A 16 bit 2901 design may have hit the market > too but I can't think of good instruction set for it. > Ben. > >> -Dave >> You need to add Zilog Z280 to that list of split I&D space cpus. Allison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 7 15:52:18 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 07 May 2009 14:52:18 -0600 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <4A033B7E.60802@verizon.net> References: <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net>, <4A019D79.8276.15610E3B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A02E13F.2000809@gmail.com> <4A02ADD6.15135.1988FCCF@cclist.sydex.com> <4A032CB6.8080007@gmail.com> <4A0336D6.4040600@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A033AAD.3040501@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A033B7E.60802@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4A034A02.2010707@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: > > You need to add Zilog Z280 to that list of split I&D space cpus. I was looking at the 1978 ... 1983 time line... > Allison PS. I like the 6809 and OS/9... From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu May 7 15:47:22 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 May 2009 15:47:22 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <4A033AAD.3040501@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net>, <4A019D79.8276.15610E3B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A02E13F.2000809@gmail.com> <4A02ADD6.15135.1988FCCF@cclist.sydex.com> <4A032CB6.8080007@gmail.com> <4A0336D6.4040600@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A033AAD.3040501@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4A0348DA.6030207@gmail.com> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> Umm...T-11? F-11? J-11? > > I was thinking a NEW board set with just 18 bits of dynamic memory > but still the split I&D spaces. Hmm, interesting idea. I wonder if the market would have gone for that in a 'personal' machine context? > A 16 bit 2901 design may have hit the market > too but I can't think of good instruction set for it. Isn't it basically whatever you make it, though? Someone could have come up with something reasonable, I would have thought. J. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu May 7 15:56:01 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 May 2009 15:56:01 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <4A034A02.2010707@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net>, <4A019D79.8276.15610E3B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A02E13F.2000809@gmail.com> <4A02ADD6.15135.1988FCCF@cclist.sydex.com> <4A032CB6.8080007@gmail.com> <4A0336D6.4040600@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A033AAD.3040501@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A033B7E.60802@verizon.net> <4A034A02.2010707@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4A034AE1.6040007@gmail.com> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Allison wrote: > >> >> You need to add Zilog Z280 to that list of split I&D space cpus. > > I was looking at the 1978 ... 1983 time line... Yep - I think the Z280 was a few years too late, was it not? MC68k or NS32016 would have been the obvious candidates, I suppose! > PS. I like the 6809 and OS/9... I still have to get OS/9 up and running on my Dragon* 64 once it makes it to this side of the Pond. I do have an Acorn BBC micro with a 68008 coprocessor in it that runs OS/9, and it seems to be a lovely little OS. * Dragon 32's were to all intents and purposes the same as a Tandy CoCo I believe. The D64 added a serial port and more memory (and in the case of OS/9, a cartridge-based FDC) over the D32. cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 7 16:35:00 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 May 2009 14:35:00 -0700 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <4A032CB6.8080007@gmail.com> References: <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net>, <4A02ADD6.15135.1988FCCF@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A032CB6.8080007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A02F194.1033.1A919756@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 May 2009 at 13:47, Jules Richardson wrote: > No, I suppose not. I wonder if they ever toyed with the idea of > rolling their own - perhaps a board containing a little 8-bitter which > was responsible for a few other useful functions (RS232, parallel > maybe) too. I suppose RAM/ROM costs around then made it unworkable > even if they had the skills readily on-tap (not to mention that it > probably wouldn't fit in with the idea of what the PC was supposed to > be!) Commodore 1541? Actually, they'd done that one already. Think about the IBM 5100/5110 with the 5114 diskette drive unit. I don't think they even wanted to think about putting something like that on a "personal computer"... --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 7 16:39:06 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 May 2009 14:39:06 -0700 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <4A032CB6.8080007@gmail.com> References: <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net>, <4A02ADD6.15135.1988FCCF@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A032CB6.8080007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A02F28A.11042.1A95595F@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 May 2009 at 13:47, Jules Richardson wrote: > Hmm, that's a possibility. I wonder if they ever considered moving to > a different CPU / support family in the very early days... Thank your lucky stars that IBM decided to use a Moto graphics controller instead of the Intel 8275. Although the 82720/NEC 7220 might have been an improvement over the 6845. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 7 16:40:54 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 May 2009 14:40:54 -0700 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <4A0336D6.4040600@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net>, <4A032CB6.8080007@gmail.com>, <4A0336D6.4040600@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4A02F2F6.11521.1A96FF3F@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 May 2009 at 13:30, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > For a alternate world ... Had the PDP 11 been reduced to a simple IC > design and operation code set, DEC may have got the PC market. Ben. Didn't the Soviets have their own versions of the LSI 11 and even put on in a calculator? I do know that they had "personal computers" built around the architecture. But when the PeeCee came out, they happily went for the x86. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 7 16:54:55 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 17:54:55 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 taking over the world (was Re: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format?) Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 5:40 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 7 May 2009 at 13:30, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > > >> For a alternate world ... Had the PDP 11 been reduced to a simple IC >> design and operation code set, DEC may have got the PC market. Ben. > > Didn't the Soviets have their own versions of the LSI 11 and even put > on in a calculator? Yep, and at least one handheld LCD-based "game", IIRC. Once they had the chip, it found its way into smaller and cheaper things. I was even in Russia 10 years ago, but didn't happen to run across any of that sort of gear where I was. >?I do know that they had "personal computers" built around the architecture. Yep. Also somewhat popular for the market. > But when the PeeCee came out, they happily went for the x86. Not right away, I think. Back in the early 1980s, even the home market in the US didn't leap right on the 5150. I was working at a childrens' game company in 1984 and we debated supporting the PC because the numbers weren't on our side yet to develop for that platform given our audience. There were plenty of PCs in offices, but the home penetration hadn't exceeded the installed base of Ataris and C-64s yet. In the end, we did support the PC, but it represented a minority of our sales. I'm sure 2-3 years later the numbers would have looked very different. -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 7 17:06:57 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 07 May 2009 16:06:57 -0600 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <4A02F28A.11042.1A95595F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net>, <4A02ADD6.15135.1988FCCF@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A032CB6.8080007@gmail.com> <4A02F28A.11042.1A95595F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A035B81.80102@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 7 May 2009 at 13:47, Jules Richardson wrote: > Thank your lucky stars that IBM decided to use a Moto graphics > controller instead of the Intel 8275. Although the 82720/NEC 7220 > might have been an improvement over the 6845. What is the bug with the chip??? If it is the chip I think it is, it had nice over stike graphics. > > --Chuck > Ben From lists at databasics.us Thu May 7 17:09:37 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 07 May 2009 12:09:37 -1000 Subject: The IBM (I've Been Mulling) PC In-Reply-To: <4A02E13F.2000809@gmail.com> References: <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net>, <713F77AC4D17@dunfield.com>, <4A019D79.8276.15610E3B@cclist.sydex.com> <4A02E13F.2000809@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A035C21.4040108@databasics.us> Subject WAS: Re: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? Hello, Jules writes: I keep thinking it'd be interesting to hear what folk think the IBM PC *should* have been - although that could descend into utter chaos :-) Utter chaos... Just like old times! A bit of history. When first conceived, the IBM PC was going to be a Z-80 CP/M machine. As the idea wound through the bureaucracy, it became clear that the brass wanted to get a leg up on the CP/M world, not be the last entrant. Powerful contingents pushed for a Motorola 68000 based PC, but while the processor was out, the support chips were a nightmare. The Intel 8086 was in the same boat -- 16-bit support chips would probably have ended up being two sets of 8-bit support chips. Awkward. But, there was the Intel 8088 - A sixteen bit chip that spoke to the world in 8 bits. (Cue the trumpets.) It does seem like the design was pretty compromised* - I'm curious as to what folk think should have been done with the hardware of the time whilst remaining in roughly the same price range... * Although wasn't the original intention for the 5150 to be more of an intelligent terminal than a standalone machine? That might explain things, as I suppose in that capacity it did what was needed. As I understand it, they wanted the ability to TRANSFORM it into a terminal, the IBM 3270 PC, not necessarily have it BE one. They were legitimately out to make the PC market their bitch, as was the mainframe market at the time. At least, that's how I saw it. It took a while for it to register that the PC market was going to be big with business, but when it did, the 400 pound bear started moving. They would have done it, too, I suspect, except for the PS/2 debacle. It must suck to be right, and STILL lose one's arse. Warren From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 7 19:55:15 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 May 2009 17:55:15 -0700 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <4A035B81.80102@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net>, <4A02F28A.11042.1A95595F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A035B81.80102@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4A032083.14617.1B490D28@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 May 2009 at 16:06, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > What is the bug with the chip??? > If it is the chip I think it is, it had nice over stike graphics. > > 8275 - think Wyse 50 terminals. Doesn't use a dedicated buffer, but DMA to do buffer refresh. Attributes (e.g. bold, blink, etc.) use a space on the screen, unless "invisible" mode is enabled, in which case each line occupies a variable number of bytes and a maximum of 16 attributes per line. 7-bit character set. I learned to hate the bloody thing. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 7 20:05:34 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 May 2009 18:05:34 -0700 Subject: The IBM (I've Been Mulling) PC In-Reply-To: <4A035C21.4040108@databasics.us> References: <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net>, <4A02E13F.2000809@gmail.com>, <4A035C21.4040108@databasics.us> Message-ID: <4A0322EE.1287.1B526416@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 May 2009 at 12:09, Warren Wolfe wrote: > As I understand it, they wanted the ability to TRANSFORM it into a > terminal, the IBM 3270 PC, not necessarily have it BE one. They were > legitimately out to make the PC market their bitch, as was the > mainframe market at the time. At least, that's how I saw it. It took > a while for it to register that the PC market was going to be big with > business, but when it did, the 400 pound bear started moving. They > would have done it, too, I suspect, except for the PS/2 debacle. It > must suck to be right, and STILL lose one's arse. Actually, it wasn't the IBM PC, XT, AT or PS/2 that established the market, but rather the proliferation of cheap far east clones. A Taiwanese "XT" couldn't be touched as far as bang for the buck. I've been trying to establish the truth of what a Taiwanese friend told me at the time--that the Taiwanese government bankrolled a lot of the groundwork and produced documentation and reference designs. But all this is for now is just one person's account. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 7 20:22:36 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 18:22:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The IBM (I've Been Mulling) PC In-Reply-To: <4A0322EE.1287.1B526416@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net>, <4A02E13F.2000809@gmail.com>, <4A035C21.4040108@databasics.us> <4A0322EE.1287.1B526416@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20090507182157.J90950@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 7 May 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've been trying to establish the truth of what a Taiwanese friend > told me at the time--that the Taiwanese government bankrolled a lot > of the groundwork and produced documentation and reference designs. > But all this is for now is just one person's account. Didn't they fund development of a relatively non-infringing BIOS? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 7 20:45:31 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 21:45:31 -0400 Subject: The IBM (I've Been Mulling) PC In-Reply-To: <4A0322EE.1287.1B526416@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net> <4A02E13F.2000809@gmail.com> <4A035C21.4040108@databasics.us> <4A0322EE.1287.1B526416@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 9:05 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 7 May 2009 at 12:09, Warren Wolfe wrote: > >> ...?It took >> a while for it to register that the PC market was going to be big with >> business, but when it did, the 400 pound bear started moving.... > > Actually, it wasn't the IBM PC, XT, AT or PS/2 that established the > market, but rather the proliferation of cheap far east clones. ?A > Taiwanese "XT" couldn't be touched as far as bang for the buck. I would agree with that. When it was only the IBM 5150 and 5160 on the market, they had a presence and commanded a certain amount of attention in the trade press, but the sales numbers were low. It was a while (years, ISTR) before the dollar amount of 5150s sold exceeded the dollar amount of C-64s sold, and it took a bit longer before the total number of PC clones sold exceeded the total number of C-64s sold. As a data point, a real IBM 5170 PC-AT was $5,000-$6,000, loaded (color graphics, printer, and hard drive). Clones were easily 2/3rds that and sold in great numbers. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 7 20:45:37 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 May 2009 18:45:37 -0700 Subject: The IBM (I've Been Mulling) PC In-Reply-To: <20090507182157.J90950@shell.lmi.net> References: <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net>, <4A0322EE.1287.1B526416@cclist.sydex.com>, <20090507182157.J90950@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4A032C51.4774.1B76F7FA@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 May 2009 at 18:22, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 7 May 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I've been trying to establish the truth of what a Taiwanese friend > > told me at the time--that the Taiwanese government bankrolled a lot > > of the groundwork and produced documentation and reference designs. > > But all this is for now is just one person's account. > > Didn't they fund development of a relatively non-infringing BIOS? That's what I heard. Also English-language manuals. I've got a few no-name manuals for floppy controllers and printer ports that have identical wording (and errors), but are printed in different typefaces. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu May 7 21:07:20 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 22:07:20 -0400 Subject: The IBM (I've Been Mulling) PC In-Reply-To: References: <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net> <4A02E13F.2000809@gmail.com> <4A035C21.4040108@databasics.us> <4A0322EE.1287.1B526416@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > I would agree with that. ?When it was only the IBM 5150 and 5160 on > the market, they had a presence and commanded a certain amount of > attention in the trade press, but the sales numbers were low. ?It was > a while (years, ISTR) before the dollar amount of 5150s sold exceeded > the dollar amount of C-64s sold, and it took a bit longer before the > total number of PC clones sold exceeded the total number of C-64s > sold. Keep in mind that IBM made a good bundle of money supporting the PC line. And the PS/2 line. -- Will From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu May 7 22:18:34 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 07 May 2009 20:18:34 -0700 Subject: Casio AI-1000 info... Message-ID: <4A03A48A.1060109@mail.msu.edu> Does anyone have any detailed information on the Casio AI-1000? This is (was) a pocket-sized computer in the vein of those old BASIC handhelds, except it's programmable in Lisp, of all things... I'm interested in what it's capable of, it just looks like a neat little device but there's not a lot of detail out there other than basic hardware specs. And of course if anyone has one they're just gonna throw away, drop me a line :). Josh From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu May 7 17:49:21 2009 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 15:49:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Extracting a 8049 (ROM) program Message-ID: <536969.56199.qm@web65510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> couldn't you *force* such a chip to yield up it's internal code by utilizing all of a keypad's functions? A combination of that and *watching* the outputs of pins upon startup. I have this thing in my head, I'm having, obviously, a bit of an awkward time putting it in print. Some sort of logic analyzer would be necessary, but even a home brewed job would seem to be in the trivial category by today's speeds. ?In Hacking the Xbox ,I believe (it's been a while) Bunnie Huang did something like this. The dude I obtained a stack of Tandy 2000s years ago said he had worked on a mod that would spy on interrupts as they were generated (via a pal chip) and revert to a different set of routines that would, according to him, make the 2000 completely pc compatible. He never finished. An extremely interesting premise though. --- On Wed, 5/6/09, John Robertson wrote: From: John Robertson Subject: Re: Extracting a 8049 (ROM) program To: General at invalid.domain, "On-Topic Posts Only" Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2009, 1:39 PM Alexandre Souza wrote: > >? ? Dear friends, > >? ? Anyone has a clue of how to extract a 8049 program? > >? ? This is for a Kenwood TS-430 radio. It uses a 8049 for entire rig control, but got one fried. It would help a lot if I could extract a program from a known good TS-430 and program a 8749 with that. > >? ? Thanks >? ? Alexandre > > > The 8049 appears to have the same pinout as the 8041 and as such probably can be read on my Xeltek burner...I just don't have an 8049 to check... The 8041 ROM code is not protected and can be read with any Eprom Programmer that handles that series. My Xeltek SuperPro can handle that as can any other burner that shows the 8041 in its list of supported devices. John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu May 7 20:38:17 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 07 May 2009 21:38:17 -0400 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? Message-ID: <0KJA00L98XU904L2@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? > From: "bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca" > Date: Thu, 07 May 2009 14:52:18 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Allison wrote: > >> >> You need to add Zilog Z280 to that list of split I&D space cpus. > >I was looking at the 1978 ... 1983 time line... > >> Allison >PS. I like the 6809 and OS/9... > Yes, in the 8bit world the 6809 is an impressive cpu. OS/9 I have no experience with those though I have a 6809 COCOIII and a homebrew 6809 running CUBIX. It's the closest thing I've used and programmed to a PDP11 that is not 68000 or 32 bits. Allison From lists at databasics.us Fri May 8 03:23:33 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 07 May 2009 22:23:33 -1000 Subject: The IBM (I've Been Mulling) PC In-Reply-To: References: <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net> <4A02E13F.2000809@gmail.com> <4A035C21.4040108@databasics.us> <4A0322EE.1287.1B526416@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A03EC05.8000601@databasics.us> Hello, Following are responses to various comments on the original message... ********************************* William Donzelli wrote: Keep in mind that IBM made a good bundle of money supporting the PC line. And the PS/2 line. Good point. VERY good as a matter of fact. IBM was about the business, all of the business. For IBM, much of the business was in the support. ********************************* Chuck Guzis wrote: Actually, it wasn't the IBM PC, XT, AT or PS/2 that established the market, but rather the proliferation of cheap far east clones. A Taiwanese "XT" couldn't be touched as far as bang for the buck. That depends upon what one means by "establish the market" in this case. As *I* would define it, a hardware market is defined when many software companies write software for that hardware platform. It only took IBM to "establish" the market by this definition. Business people, that is, people with money, were buying into IBM PCs from the beginning. They had been frightened by the instability of various "business machines" at that time. (Note the Sphere, for example) They did not want "orphan" machines, and were confident that IBM would not leave them in the lurch. And, with the increasing amount of high-quality software for the platform, its success was guaranteed. The clones were INDICATIVE, rather than DETERMINATIVE, when it comes to establishing the market. Only successes get cloned. And, incidentally, the first clones weren't very good. ********************************* Ethan Dicks wrote: I would agree with that. When it was only the IBM 5150 and 5160 on the market, they had a presence and commanded a certain amount of attention in the trade press, but the sales numbers were low. It was a while (years, ISTR) before the dollar amount of 5150s sold exceeded the dollar amount of C-64s sold, and it took a bit longer before the total number of PC clones sold exceeded the total number of C-64s sold. "A certain amount of attention in the trade press?" They were covered like Obama -- with gushing, uncritical admiration, with very few exceptions. These "unit dollars" are artificial and irrelevant numbers, I claim. I am reminded of the Consumer Reports article on picking the best computer for business. They chose the C-64, because it was the cheapest way to get 64 K in a computer. K of RAM/$ was the ONLY test of computer quality. Your comment treats $ of units sold with equal undue importance. First, most C-64 computers were sold as game machines, which means that most software development was in that arena. Nothing wrong with that, but, when most people bought a C-64, most of their spending was done. Games were cheap -- many were free. Their accessories were cheaper than PC gear, by far. But for serious computer usage, the closest competitor for the IBM PC was the CP/M world. And, by the time the IBM PC had been out for a while, CP/M was "last generation" and people were actively scouting for its replacement as "THE standard" computer. Clearly, this was the IBM PC, and, after a couple of years for development, the clones. Try including the dollar value of the SOFTWARE for the respective machines, and see where the total market figures take you... and don't forget the add-on boards and etc. for the markets. Both of these figures will skew radically in favor of the IBM PC. As a data point, a real IBM 5170 PC-AT was $5,000-$6,000, loaded (color graphics, printer, and hard drive). Clones were easily 2/3rds that and sold in great numbers. Yeah, sure, by the time the AT came out, the clone manufacturers had the process down. Earlier, not so much. For years, IBM said, "Sure, you can get a PC clone... but it doesn't run many IBM PC programs. Is that what you want?" Usually, the answer was "no." Later, when the clones were reliably "PC-Compatible" they took more market share -- at which point IBM dropped their prices. This is essentially the same strategy IBM used in the 1960s to keep the "7 sisters" at bay with "plug compatible" hard drives. Warren From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri May 8 03:34:05 2009 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 10:34:05 +0200 (CEST) Subject: ebay : 'rare' pdp 11/24 frontpanel Message-ID: <11013.212.67.167.228.1241771645.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> A ridiculous price for a standard PDP-11/24 frontpanel. Buy it now for just only GBP 49,998.99 and there isn't even a picture. item 180353721346 -- Certified : VCP 3.x, SCSI 3.x SCSA S10, SCNA S10 From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 8 04:06:35 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 May 2009 02:06:35 -0700 Subject: The IBM (I've Been Mulling) PC In-Reply-To: <4A03EC05.8000601@databasics.us> References: <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net>, , <4A03EC05.8000601@databasics.us> Message-ID: <4A0393AB.20960.15CB643@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 May 2009 at 22:23, Warren Wolfe wrote: > That depends upon what one means by "establish the market" in this > case. As *I* would define it, a hardware market is defined when many > software companies write software for that hardware platform. It only > took IBM to "establish" the market by this definition. Business > people, that is, people with money, were buying into IBM PCs from the > beginning. They had been frightened by the instability of various > "business machines" at that time. (Note the Sphere, for example) > They did not want "orphan" machines, and were confident that IBM would > not leave them in the lurch. And, with the increasing amount of > high-quality software for the platform, its success was guaranteed. > The clones were INDICATIVE, rather than DETERMINATIVE, when it comes > to establishing the market. Only successes get cloned. And, > incidentally, the first clones weren't very good. Had the PC been only a business computer, it would have been like the other "business computers" (not the hobbyist ones) and not made sufficient headway in the market. A lot of the software available for the PC at the beginning was nothing more than code ported from the x80 world--heck, PC-DOS was pretty much that. Until Lotus 1-2-3, that is. Business people bought PCs for 1-2-3 the same way they'd bought Apples for VisiCalc. It might not be an exaggeration that clones were so successful because they could run 1- 2-3 as well as a PC could--and 1-2-3 ran only on PCs. And it ran very well on 5160 clones. I suspect that Intel Aboveboards owe their success to 1-2-3 as much as anything. If we had been left with IBM as the only proponent of the PC, it might well have been just a memory, like the 5100. I'll confess that when the 5150 came out, I thought I was out of my mind buying a 64K 5150, instead of a nice complete well-built system like a NEC APC. But if IBM was difficult to deal with, NEC was impossible and kept technical details to themselves jealously. IBM was miserable at the beginning doing PC sales. We walked into the IBM sales office on Arques in Sunnyvale early in 1983 and put in an order for a dozen 5150s, loaded (not hard to load, considering there were only 5 expansion slots and the only "multifunction" card IBM offered was the MDA). The sales office staff couldn't tell us when to expect delivery--6 months was their best guess. And nobody in that office knew the first thing about options or software for the thing. To get what we needed, we went to Computerland in San Jose. They had our systems in a week and knew their stuff. --Chuck From lists at databasics.us Fri May 8 05:57:23 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Fri, 08 May 2009 00:57:23 -1000 Subject: The IBM (I've Been Mulling) PC In-Reply-To: <4A0393AB.20960.15CB643@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net>, , <4A03EC05.8000601@databasics.us> <4A0393AB.20960.15CB643@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A041013.5070905@databasics.us> Chuck Guzis wrote: Had the PC been only a business computer, it would have been like the other "business computers" (not the hobbyist ones) and not made sufficient headway in the market. I strongly disagree. Business was leery of fly-by-night companies, irrespective of the quality of their products. Again, see Sphere Computer. Business viewed the whole PC industry as, well, flaky. That is, they viewed it as flaky until IBM showed up. THEN business got involved with PCs on a grand scale, and has never looked back. A lot of the software available for the PC at the beginning was nothing more than code ported from the x80 world--heck, PC-DOS was pretty much that. Agreed (PC-DOS was a hot copy of CP/M, plain and simple) -- but irrelevant to the point at hand. It takes time to ramp up software production. Software companies were willing to write software, and businesses were willing to buy machines, based upon the idea that IBM would support them for at LEAST five years, and would remain in business at least that long. That was better than anyone else at that time. So, the magic triangle of manufacturer, buyer, and software writer was complete, and growing at each leg, if you'll pardon the anatomical mental picture. Until Lotus 1-2-3, that is. Business people bought PCs for 1-2-3 the same way they'd bought Apples for VisiCalc. It might not be an exaggeration that clones were so successful because they could run 1-2-3 as well as a PC could--and 1-2-3 ran only on PCs. And it ran very well on 5160 clones. Well, when a clone could run both 1-2-3 and Microsoft Flight Simulator, they would sell well. I suspect that Intel Aboveboards owe their success to 1-2-3 as much as anything. Agreed. AST, Tecmar, and others as well. The PC was a stable platform. If we had been left with IBM as the only proponent of the PC, it might well have been just a memory, like the 5100. Again, I strongly disagree. The very nature of IBM involvement in the PC market projected stability, and encouraged both hardware and software extensions to the PC environment. I'll confess that when the 5150 came out, I thought I was out of my mind buying a 64K 5150, instead of a nice complete well-built system like a NEC APC. But if IBM was difficult to deal with, NEC was impossible and kept technical details to themselves jealously. Yes - Kudos to IBM for an open architecture. That was VERY uncharacteristic of IBM in general. IBM was miserable at the beginning doing PC sales. Hee, hee.... Agreed, totally. It was fun to make them squirm, though! To get what we needed, we went to Computerland in San Jose. They had our systems in a week and knew their stuff. Sure, but let's be fair, though... Most people didn't walk into NEC (or Exidy, or any other) offices, either -- most sales were (mercifully) handled by computer stores. Warren From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri May 8 09:23:02 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 08 May 2009 09:23:02 -0500 Subject: OpenVMS seminars (TNMoC, UK) Message-ID: <4A044046.7010902@gmail.com> I was asked to forward details of this on... The National Museum of Computing in Bletchley, UK, have a series of OpenVMS seminars coming up; some folk here may well be interested in attending. Details at: http://tnmoc.org/36/section.aspx/78 cheers, Jules From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 8 11:35:08 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 12:35:08 -0400 Subject: Casio AI-1000 info... In-Reply-To: <4A03A48A.1060109@mail.msu.edu> References: <4A03A48A.1060109@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <9653B977-1CEC-4DF4-851C-A6C8632297CF@neurotica.com> On May 7, 2009, at 11:18 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Does anyone have any detailed information on the Casio AI-1000? > This is (was) a pocket-sized computer in the vein of those old > BASIC handhelds, except it's programmable in Lisp, of all > things... I'm interested in what it's capable of, it just looks > like a neat little device but there's not a lot of detail out there > other than basic hardware specs. Really...? I've never heard of this. It sounds like a WHOLE lot of fun! Please share any information that you may find. > And of course if anyone has one they're just gonna throw away, drop > me a line :). Me too! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 8 12:59:02 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 18:59:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <4A034AE1.6040007@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at May 7, 9 03:56:01 pm Message-ID: > > PS. I like the 6809 and OS/9... Add me as another OS-9 fan. I ran it first on a CoCo2 (64K) and found the I/O system amde it very easy to write device drivers for custom hardware (and guess what I kept on adding to my CoCo...) [...] > * Dragon 32's were to all intents and purposes the same as a Tandy CoCo I There are some minor differnces, but both were based on the same Motorola application note for the 6883 (SAM) and use essentially the same chips. The main hardware differenve is the printer port. When the PIA lines needed for the keyboard, cassette, video control, etc had been allocated, there were 3 lines left. The CoCo uses them to make a bit-banged RS232 port (TxD, RxD, CD IIRC). The Dragon uses them to provide the Stb/, Busy nad Ack/ lines for a Centronics port. The Centronics data comes from the 8 lines also used to scan the keyboard. Since the printer only looks at those lines on the falling edge of a strobe (which doesn't happen while the keuyboard is being scanned) and since the keyboard is not read when the machine is sendinf data to the printer there's no problem. One annoying difference is that the BASIC tokens are differnt. So while the CoCO and Dragon can read eaxh other's tapes, and while you cna transfer BASIC programs saved in ASCII with no problems, you can just load a tokenised program saved on one machine into the other. > believe. The D64 added a serial port and more memory (and in the case of OS/9, > a cartridge-based FDC) over the D32. IIRC the disk controller owrked with the Dragon 32 as well, but you needed 64K to run OS-9 The Dragon 64 serial port was a real hardware one, based on a 6551 IRRC. -tony From sbolton at bfree.on.ca Fri May 8 13:09:19 2009 From: sbolton at bfree.on.ca (sbolton at bfree.on.ca) Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 14:09:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Tons of vintage boxed computers and software for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <28021.66.207.113.39.1241806159.squirrel@66.207.113.39> Hey folks! Syd from the Personal Computer Museum here. Just wanted everyone to know that we are having our huge 3rd Annual "Spring Cleanup" at the Personal Computer Museum (Brantford, Ontario, Canada) on May 23rd from 10am to 4pm. This year we are featuring STAR WARS so if you are a Star Wars fan, come see the villains from the 501st dressed in full costume as you browse through the museum and our displays. In addition to taking all your old electronics, software, and video games for safe and proper reuse or/recycling we are also selling some of our extra machines and software programs. VINTAGE COMPUTERS in BOXED (and unboxed) condition will be available. Lots of old BYTE magazines (as well as other publications) and TONS of old boxed DOS software will be available. If you are anywhere CLOSE to Brantford (around an hour's drive from Toronto) you should make an effort to come by and see what we are doing. More information on the event (for example there is a traditional community garage sale going on around us for those people who have friends/partners not as interested in old computers) can be found at our website, http://www.pcmuseum.ca. THANKS ---------------------------- Powered by Execulink Webmail http://www.execulink.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri May 8 14:40:34 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 08 May 2009 14:40:34 -0500 Subject: The IBM (I've Been Mulling) PC In-Reply-To: <4A0393AB.20960.15CB643@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net>, , <4A03EC05.8000601@databasics.us> <4A0393AB.20960.15CB643@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A048AB2.50206@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I suspect that Intel Aboveboards owe their success to 1-2-3 as much > as anything. They didn't call it LOTUS-intel-microsoft (LIM) for nothing :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri May 8 14:47:00 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 15:47:00 -0400 Subject: The IBM (I've Been Mulling) PC References: <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net>, , <4A03EC05.8000601@databasics.us><4A0393AB.20960.15CB643@cclist.sydex.com> <4A048AB2.50206@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <445A0FB3E3D3411FBD60C662FDF33E3C@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Leonard" To: ; "Discussion at mail.mobygames.com :On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 3:40 PM Subject: Re: The IBM (I've Been Mulling) PC > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I suspect that Intel Aboveboards owe their success to 1-2-3 as much as >> anything. > > They didn't call it LOTUS-intel-microsoft (LIM) for nothing :-) I am sure somebody would have coded Lotus to some other desktop x86 type PC and it would have taken off. The Apple II took off just because of visivcalc. I view the apps as being more important then the hardware. The IBM PC became a huge hit because it was an open architecture and it had IBM backing, the clones just made it more universal with companies having the expensive IBM and Compaq machines and home users had the lesser clones. I don't think the PC explosion would have come about without the clones. From toby at coreware.co.uk Fri May 8 15:33:06 2009 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Fri, 08 May 2009 21:33:06 +0100 Subject: ebay : 'rare' pdp 11/24 frontpanel In-Reply-To: <11013.212.67.167.228.1241771645.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <11013.212.67.167.228.1241771645.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <1241814786.7676.4.camel@spasmo> For some reason (best known only to themselves), this vendor has priced many of their lots at this price. They seem to want people to make an offer to agree an actual price, but I suspect the ?15-?20 an 11/24 front panel is worth may fall somewhat short of their aspirations! If only these prices were realistic, I could finally afford that Supermarine Spitfire I've always wanted. Tby On Fri, 2009-05-08 at 10:34 +0200, Ed Groenenberg wrote: > A ridiculous price for a standard PDP-11/24 frontpanel. > Buy it now for just only GBP 49,998.99 and there isn't even a picture. > > item 180353721346 > > -- > Certified : VCP 3.x, SCSI 3.x SCSA S10, SCNA S10 > > -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 8 15:38:16 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 16:38:16 -0400 Subject: ebay : 'rare' pdp 11/24 frontpanel In-Reply-To: <1241814786.7676.4.camel@spasmo> References: <11013.212.67.167.228.1241771645.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <1241814786.7676.4.camel@spasmo> Message-ID: On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 4:33 PM, Tobias Russell wrote: > For some reason (best known only to themselves), this vendor has priced > many of their lots at this price. They seem to want people to make an > offer to agree an actual price, but I suspect the ?15-?20 an 11/24 front > panel is worth may fall somewhat short of their aspirations! Is there something magical that happens at GBP 50K with eBay UK, or is that price merely a psychological tug on the would-be buyer? -ethan From lynchaj at yahoo.com Fri May 8 15:42:07 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 16:42:07 -0400 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? Message-ID: <0ACFEAF3CAC94FDAA0646CA7FFE8B77E@andrewdesktop> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 5:35 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? On 7 May 2009 at 13:47, Jules Richardson wrote: > No, I suppose not. I wonder if they ever toyed with the idea of > rolling their own - perhaps a board containing a little 8-bitter which > was responsible for a few other useful functions (RS232, parallel > maybe) too. I suppose RAM/ROM costs around then made it unworkable > even if they had the skills readily on-tap (not to mention that it > probably wouldn't fit in with the idea of what the PC was supposed to > be!) Commodore 1541? Actually, they'd done that one already. Think about the IBM 5100/5110 with the 5114 diskette drive unit. I don't think they even wanted to think about putting something like that on a "personal computer"... --Chuck -----REPLY----- Hi Chuck, Jules! At least in theory, the N8VEM SBC mated with its Disk IO board provides this capability right now. The N8VEM SBC has 512K SRAM for immediate storage, the Disk IO supports IDE and NEC765 FDC capability. Attach a IDE to CF adapter (several varieties of those have been demonstrated to work or just use an old IDE hard drive) for storage and use the SBC serial port for operator IO. Connect the SBC to the Disk IO board via a 64 pin DIN 41612 IDC connector and short 64 conductor ribbon cable for a nice and compact two board (stacked Eurocard) solution powered by 5VDC only. The SBC boots CP/M 2.2 from its ROM drive which could be easily augmented with CP/M applications to manage the floppy disk transfer functionality. I designed the system with something like this in mind and there are at least the beginnings of the software necessary to accomplish it. The Disk IO board even includes special control and data signal access for raw disk reads and 8" floppy drive manipulation if someone were *REALLY* ambitious. I spent quite a bit of time working on this design along those lines but the Disk IO was such a beast I rather burned out on it. Since the PCBs and parts are all available now if someone wanted to pick this up the hardware is essentially completed, some of the software, and you're most of the way there. It would "only" take someone with the desire to write the software to make this happen -- basically comfortable old CP/M and Z80 assembler. I've moved on to other things in the N8VEM project. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From arcarlini at iee.org Fri May 8 16:05:15 2009 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 22:05:15 +0100 Subject: ebay : 'rare' pdp 11/24 frontpanel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > Is there something magical that happens at GBP 50K with eBay > UK, or is that price merely a psychological tug on the would-be buyer? ?50 is (I think) the minimum reserve price. Not sure what possesses people to throw in an additional stray "K" :-) Antonio From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 8 17:20:40 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 May 2009 15:20:40 -0700 Subject: The IBM (I've Been Mulling) PC In-Reply-To: <445A0FB3E3D3411FBD60C662FDF33E3C@game> References: <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net>, <445A0FB3E3D3411FBD60C662FDF33E3C@game> Message-ID: <4A044DC8.16472.433B941@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 May 2009 at 15:47, Teo Zenios wrote: > I am sure somebody would have coded Lotus to some other desktop x86 > type PC and it would have taken off. The Apple II took off just > because of visivcalc. I view the apps as being more important then the > hardware. The IBM PC became a huge hit because it was an open > architecture and it had IBM backing, the clones just made it more > universal with companies having the expensive IBM and Compaq machines > and home users had the lesser clones. I don't think the PC explosion > would have come about without the clones. The curious thing is that IBM was extremely weak when it came to PC software (just look how Lotus' fortunes have slid since they were acquired by IBM). What IBM-developed PC software helped the PC accumulate market share? Topview? OS/2? I imagine that if IBM had acquired Microsoft, we'd all be running some flavor of Unix now. Maybe not a bad thing... --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 8 19:17:24 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 17:17:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The IBM (I've Been Mulling) PC In-Reply-To: <4A044DC8.16472.433B941@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net>, <445A0FB3E3D3411FBD60C662FDF33E3C@game> <4A044DC8.16472.433B941@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20090508171025.T32568@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 8 May 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The curious thing is that IBM was extremely weak when it came to PC > software (just look how Lotus' fortunes have slid since they were > acquired by IBM). What IBM-developed PC software helped the PC > accumulate market share? Topview? OS/2? I imagine that if IBM had > acquired Microsoft, we'd all be running some flavor of Unix now. > Maybe not a bad thing... VisiCalc Easy Writer and didn't IBM sell a MICROS~1 port of Adventure? (Colossal Cave) What more could anybody want? (no, that WAS sarcasm) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 8 19:22:23 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Fri, 08 May 2009 18:22:23 -0600 Subject: The IBM (I've Been Mulling) PC In-Reply-To: <20090508171025.T32568@shell.lmi.net> References: <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net>, <445A0FB3E3D3411FBD60C662FDF33E3C@game> <4A044DC8.16472.433B941@cclist.sydex.com> <20090508171025.T32568@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4A04CCBF.1060005@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > VisiCalc > Easy Writer > and didn't IBM sell a MICROS~1 port of Adventure? (Colossal Cave) > > What more could anybody want? (no, that WAS sarcasm) I got a PDP 8 ... who needs MS's port.... mind you real bug fixes are almost as slow as MS's. Anybody yet get to compile for the SBC6120? > From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri May 8 19:26:31 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 20:26:31 -0400 Subject: The IBM (I've Been Mulling) PC References: <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net>, <445A0FB3E3D3411FBD60C662FDF33E3C@game> <4A044DC8.16472.433B941@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <390F97ED69064E2D85D1BC9CE74B797E@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 6:20 PM Subject: Re: The IBM (I've Been Mulling) PC > On 8 May 2009 at 15:47, Teo Zenios wrote: > >> I am sure somebody would have coded Lotus to some other desktop x86 >> type PC and it would have taken off. The Apple II took off just >> because of visivcalc. I view the apps as being more important then the >> hardware. The IBM PC became a huge hit because it was an open >> architecture and it had IBM backing, the clones just made it more >> universal with companies having the expensive IBM and Compaq machines >> and home users had the lesser clones. I don't think the PC explosion >> would have come about without the clones. > > The curious thing is that IBM was extremely weak when it came to PC > software (just look how Lotus' fortunes have slid since they were > acquired by IBM). What IBM-developed PC software helped the PC > accumulate market share? Topview? OS/2? I imagine that if IBM had > acquired Microsoft, we'd all be running some flavor of Unix now. > Maybe not a bad thing... > > --Chuck > Lotus was in a steep decline before IBM purchased them having lost the office desktop wars at the time. A shame realy since I liked Lotus Ami Pro for Windows 3.1 quite a bit (which I think they purchased from somebody else?). I have a boxed Copy of Lotus Suite 3.0 for Win 3.x and someday I might find the OS/2 native version. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri May 8 20:01:37 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 09 May 2009 02:01:37 +0100 Subject: ebay : 'rare' pdp 11/24 frontpanel In-Reply-To: <1241814786.7676.4.camel@spasmo> References: <11013.212.67.167.228.1241771645.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <1241814786.7676.4.camel@spasmo> Message-ID: <1241830898.4263.24.camel@elric> On Fri, 2009-05-08 at 21:33 +0100, Tobias Russell wrote: > For some reason (best known only to themselves), this vendor has priced > many of their lots at this price. They seem to want people to make an As someone said of a similar auction a week or two back, looks like money laundering. Gordon From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri May 8 20:09:47 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 18:09:47 -0700 Subject: Apple II swift board (was: More broken Apples...) In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Tue, 05 May 2009 14:48:03 -0700. <002701c9cdcb$2b2bdd80$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: Hi I've upload a copy of the swyftcard manual to the google group canon-cat. I think you need to be a member to look at the files. If so, send me an email and I can give you an invite. I expect to get my hands on a card and make a copy of the EPROM. Looking at the manual and with the schematic, I think I can figure out the PAL. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_BR_life_in_synch_052009 From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 8 20:39:05 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 May 2009 18:39:05 -0700 Subject: The IBM (I've Been Mulling) PC In-Reply-To: <390F97ED69064E2D85D1BC9CE74B797E@game> References: <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net>, <390F97ED69064E2D85D1BC9CE74B797E@game> Message-ID: <4A047C49.22617.4E95F73@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 May 2009 at 20:26, Teo Zenios wrote: > Lotus was in a steep decline before IBM purchased them having lost the > office desktop wars at the time. A shame realy since I liked Lotus Ami > Pro for Windows 3.1 quite a bit (which I think they purchased from > somebody else?). I have a boxed Copy of Lotus Suite 3.0 for Win 3.x > and someday I might find the OS/2 native version. Still got Ami Pro in its box--Wordstar turned out to be too hard a habit to break. But "Palantir" pops into my mind for the Ami Pro ancestor (didn't that start out as an x80 CP/M package?) --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Fri May 8 22:24:11 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 04:24:11 +0100 Subject: The IBM (I've Been Mulling) PC In-Reply-To: <390F97ED69064E2D85D1BC9CE74B797E@game> References: <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net> <445A0FB3E3D3411FBD60C662FDF33E3C@game> <4A044DC8.16472.433B941@cclist.sydex.com> <390F97ED69064E2D85D1BC9CE74B797E@game> Message-ID: <575131af0905082024m4d8ce364w192f41b62edd706d@mail.gmail.com> 2009/5/9 Teo Zenios : > Lotus was in a steep decline before IBM purchased them having lost the > office desktop wars at the time. A shame realy since I liked Lotus Ami Pro > for Windows 3.1 quite a bit (which I think they purchased from somebody > else?). I have a boxed Copy of Lotus Suite 3.0 for Win 3.x and someday I > might find the OS/2 native version. Lotus bought in both Approach and Ami (properly, Am?). Am? came from Samna Development Corporation, creators of Samna Executive, the DOS WP aimed at senior managerial and directorial staff. I only ever met one person who used it - and I supported virtually every DOS WP going in the 1980s. Samna Executive was very odd and /profoundly/ unlike other DOS apps, but it did have a sort of WYSIWYG and a print preview before just about anybody else. Horrible app, though. :?) Am? was the first Windows WP app, long before Word for Windows. Aldus' Flintstone might have been first, but Bill Gates met Paul Brainerd at a trade show and when told of the not-yet-alpha testing WYSIWYG GUI WP, he lied through his teeth and told Brainerd not to bother since MS Word was nearly ready and would beat Aldus onto the market. Brainerd went home and cancelled the product. Gates went home and told his dev team to start writing a Windows WP, PDQ, because someone else was going to beat them to it. Well, Word for Windows 1.0 was rubbish. 2.0 wasn't great but was better. Then it leapt to v6.0 which was actually pretty good and is basically the same app as Word 11, more generally known as Word 2003. But Samna beat them to market, and considering the weird horror that was Samna's DOS apps, Am? was a beauty. Fast, elegant, easy. The only remnant of Samna corp and its name is the .SAM extension of Lotus Word Pro docs, and the chief influence it had on MS Word was that Microsoft copied Am?'s "Full Screen View" - still my preferred way of working in MS Word to this day. Often in white-on-blue mode, for me. And I think I have a copy of the OS/2 version somewhere, but I don't think it was the last version... I'll look. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri May 8 18:14:59 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 19:14:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Back to the original subject: I have IMD chugging away merrily on the Compaticard and, thanks to some advice from Dave, can use it as the secondary controller. Now, I'm trying to figure out how to format a SSDD diskette for the Xerox. They use a screwy format where track 0 is FM 128 bytes/sector (26 x 128) and all the others are MFM 256 bytes/sector (26 x 256). Is there a way I can kludge through this with IMD? Or, do the Xerox system utilities actually reformat track 0 when you sysgen (in which case, it really doesn't matter what track 0 is configured as)? Steve -- From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat May 9 02:46:09 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 09:46:09 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 May 2009, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Now, I'm trying to figure out how to format a SSDD diskette for the Xerox. > They use a screwy format where track 0 is FM 128 bytes/sector (26 x 128) and > all the others are MFM 256 bytes/sector (26 x 256). That's not screwy, that is standard IBM format for higher density disks (except that IBM didn't have a SSDD variant, only SSSD, DSSS and DSDD). Christian From rick at rickmurphy.net Sat May 9 01:31:03 2009 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 07:31:03 +0100 Subject: The IBM (I've Been Mulling) PC In-Reply-To: <4A04CCBF.1060005@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20090505123516.O81068@shell.lmi.net>, <445A0FB3E3D3411FBD60C662FDF33E3C@game> <4A044DC8.16472.433B941@cclist.sydex.com> <20090508171025.T32568@shell.lmi.net> <4A04CCBF.1060005@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On May 9, 2009, at 1:22 AM, "bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca" wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: > >> VisiCalc >> Easy Writer >> and didn't IBM sell a MICROS~1 port of Adventure? (Colossal Cave) >> What more could anybody want? (no, that WAS sarcasm) > I got a PDP 8 ... who needs MS's port.... mind you real bug fixes > are almost as > slow as MS's. Yeah, it took over 20 years for some bugs to get fixed! > Anybody yet get to compiler for the SBC6120? Anybody yet bother to mention the fact that it didn't compile? :-) I think the latest release should work OK but I'l be happy to work with a SBC6120 user to help fix it. -Rick From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 9 03:05:21 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 09 May 2009 01:05:21 -0700 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4A04D6D1.23739.64B0582@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 May 2009 at 19:14, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Is there a way I can kludge through this with IMD? Or, do the Xerox > system utilities actually reformat track 0 when you sysgen (in which > case, it really doesn't matter what track 0 is configured as)? It certainly is possible to do this with 22Disk. -Chuck From dave09 at dunfield.com Sat May 9 06:13:45 2009 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 06:13:45 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <4A04D6D1.23739.64B0582@cclist.sydex.com> References: Message-ID: <80A38F9D653B@dunfield.com> > On 8 May 2009 at 19:14, Steven Hirsch wrote: > > > Is there a way I can kludge through this with IMD? Or, do the Xerox > > system utilities actually reformat track 0 when you sysgen (in which > > case, it really doesn't matter what track 0 is configured as)? > > It certainly is possible to do this with 22Disk. ImageDisk is NOT a CP/M emulator like 22disk - it knows (or cares) nothing about high level disk formats (file systems). Although it has a F)ormat command, it's is a LOW-LEVEL format only and does not create a recognisable file system. It is mainly for testing and the creation of custom disks. You CAN low-level format mixed density disks with ImageDisk by making use of the track exclusion-map feature and F)ormatting the areas of the disk containing different track types individually - but this is a low-level format only - the OS may not recognize it (although it should be able to reformat it even if the system normally requires already low-level formatted disks). The best way to high-level "format" a disk with ImageDisk however, is to make an image of disk freshly formatted on the actual system, then simply W)rite it to new disks as needed. The Xerox should format the system tracks as part of it's normal format. If for some reason it does not, you could try any of the following: - Format the first 2 tracks in SD with ImageDisk (and the rest DD if necessary) and then format it in the Xerox to get the high level file system. - Make a second copy of your system disk, then format it in the system. - Make a second copy of your system disk and delete all the files (not quite as clean but logically a blank disk). - Use BIN2IMD to convert a binary file prepared with a blank file system image into a .IMD file that you can write - BIN2IMD lets you change track formats on the fly with an option file. Dave -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Sat May 9 07:32:25 2009 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 09 May 2009 08:32:25 -0400 Subject: non-DEC-compat HW to read RX02's? Message-ID: <20090509123226.11CB1BA514F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> What non-DEC-compatible stuff out there can read RX02's? Obviously the original RX02 drive can read RX02's... as can all the DSD, Sigma, etc. Q-bus, Unibus, Omnibus compatible controllers. But what can read RX02's using a generic SA801-type drive and a PC-clone? Several years back I built a doohickey that plugged into a PC's parallel port and allowed me to step floppy drives and read bit-timing-information, a track at a time, into a RAM buffer, which I then dumped into the parallel port and wrote some software to analyze arbitrary disk formats. I wired the index/sector hole detector to the MSB RAM line and used it with great success to analyze and read several 8" and 5.25" hard-sector floppy formats and eventually pumped a few thousand disks through the scheme. Not bad for something thrown together on a solderless breadboard using random TTL chips I had lying around the basement :-). Obviously similar devices have been discussed here in the past decade or two. Is there anything available off the shelf that can plug into a USB port and let me do similar? Right now the thought of traveling with a 8" HH floppy drive and a laptop has a certain appeal as opposed to hauling around a BA23 and a DSD440 :-). Tim. From richardlynch3 at tx.rr.com Sat May 9 07:58:10 2009 From: richardlynch3 at tx.rr.com (Richard Lynch) Date: Sat, 09 May 2009 07:58:10 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 5/8/09 6:14 PM, "Steven Hirsch" wrote: > Back to the original subject: > > I have IMD chugging away merrily on the Compaticard and, thanks to some > advice from Dave, can use it as the secondary controller. > > Now, I'm trying to figure out how to format a SSDD diskette for the Xerox. > They use a screwy format where track 0 is FM 128 bytes/sector (26 x 128) > and all the others are MFM 256 bytes/sector (26 x 256). > > Is there a way I can kludge through this with IMD? Or, do the Xerox > system utilities actually reformat track 0 when you sysgen (in which case, > it really doesn't matter what track 0 is configured as)? > > Steve > > Of the 100 or so Xerox floppies I've archived so far, track 0 varies enough that my guess is it doesn't matter. I've seen a lot of 26x128 as you mention, but every once in awhile it is 26x256, and sometimes the interleave matches the rest of the tracks and sometimes it doesn't. When the disk is DSDD, track 0 side 1 always matches the rest of the tracks at 26x256, even if side 0 is 26x128. When I use IMDV to look at track 0, sometimes it's completely blank and sometimes not. Richard From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat May 9 08:23:02 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 09:23:02 -0400 Subject: non-DEC-compat HW to read RX02's? In-Reply-To: <20090509123226.11CB1BA514F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20090509123226.11CB1BA514F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200905090923.02865.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 09 May 2009, Tim Shoppa wrote: > What non-DEC-compatible stuff out there can read RX02's? > > Obviously the original RX02 drive can read RX02's... as can all the > DSD, Sigma, etc. Q-bus, Unibus, Omnibus compatible controllers. > > But what can read RX02's using a generic SA801-type drive and a > PC-clone? I'm pretty sure that you're supposed to be able to do this with a Catweasel and the utils that make a DMK out of them (Tim Mann's name comes to mind). Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From nico at farumdata.dk Sat May 9 08:43:26 2009 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 15:43:26 +0200 Subject: non-DEC-compat HW to read RX02's? References: <20090509123226.11CB1BA514F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <200905090923.02865.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <2D1CCB3454D445068BDE9042DFE6B0DC@udvikling> From: "Patrick Finnegan" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 3:23 PM Subject: Re: non-DEC-compat HW to read RX02's? > On Saturday 09 May 2009, Tim Shoppa wrote: >> What non-DEC-compatible stuff out there can read RX02's? >> >> Obviously the original RX02 drive can read RX02's... as can all the >> DSD, Sigma, etc. Q-bus, Unibus, Omnibus compatible controllers. >> >> But what can read RX02's using a generic SA801-type drive and a >> PC-clone? > > I'm pretty sure that you're supposed to be able to do this with a > Catweasel and the utils that make a DMK out of them (Tim Mann's name > comes to mind). > I think I have that format on my Octopus conversion system, but I can't check right now. The drive I use is YE-data YD180(+) Nico From js at cimmeri.com Sat May 9 10:07:10 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sat, 09 May 2009 10:07:10 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A059C1E.3070804@cimmeri.com> Steven Hirsch wrote: > Back to the original subject: > > I have IMD chugging away merrily on the Compaticard and, thanks to > some advice from Dave, can use it as the secondary controller. > > Now, I'm trying to figure out how to format a SSDD diskette for the > Xerox. They use a screwy format where track 0 is FM 128 bytes/sector > (26 x 128) and all the others are MFM 256 bytes/sector (26 x 256). > > Is there a way I can kludge through this with IMD? Or, do the Xerox > system utilities actually reformat track 0 when you sysgen (in which > case, it really doesn't matter what track 0 is configured as)? > > Steve Then try to figure it out, Steve. You're doing yourself a disservice by throwing in the towel so easily on every little question. Richard wrote: <> These are not surprising observations: not all disks are bootable. Not all those disks were necessarily formatted on the Xerox.. some might have be pre-initialized. 26x128 on T0S0 is your format for booting. Format -- not sysgen -- formats. Sysgen -- not format -- puts boot code on that track. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat May 9 10:12:49 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 08:12:49 -0700 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 19:14:59 -0400 > From: snhirsch at gmail.com > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? > > Back to the original subject: > > I have IMD chugging away merrily on the Compaticard and, thanks to some > advice from Dave, can use it as the secondary controller. > > Now, I'm trying to figure out how to format a SSDD diskette for the Xerox. > They use a screwy format where track 0 is FM 128 bytes/sector (26 x 128) > and all the others are MFM 256 bytes/sector (26 x 256). > > Is there a way I can kludge through this with IMD? Or, do the Xerox > system utilities actually reformat track 0 when you sysgen (in which case, > it really doesn't matter what track 0 is configured as)? > > Steve > Hi I do this for images on my code I wrote for images of my Olivetti M20. I think I have different sector sizes but I do this. Dave's tool handles this as well. I recall we added the ability to have different sector formats. If you have the images in his format or can convert them, his tool would be the best way to go. My code seems to be a little particular about what machine it runs on. As I recall you specify the different format of the first track. In any case, you'll need a machine that supports FM. Not all PC machines do this. Dave has a program that checks to see if the controller support FM as well. The reason for the FM on the fist track was that it was then compatable with boot code for disk that were all FM. One could boot FM and then switch to MFM for the rest of the disk. It seems strange now but made sense at the time. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail? has a new way to see what's up with your friends. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/WhatsNew?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_WhatsNew1_052009 From js at cimmeri.com Sat May 9 10:24:42 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sat, 09 May 2009 10:24:42 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A05A03A.1040309@cimmeri.com> dwight elvey wrote: > > > The reason for the FM on the fist track was that it > was then compatable with boot code for disk that > were all FM. One could boot FM and then switch to > MFM for the rest of the disk. It seems strange now > but made sense at the time. > Dwight True, but that's not all. The reason for FM on T0 is so that any disk of any format that had been properly sysgen'd and contained the proper CBIOS could then be booted from that system. It allowed the flexibility of having a multi-format system. Another reason is so that the disk controller boot rom (or boot code wherever it was) could start booting ANY disk since they all began with FM 26x128. Boot in FM, read the boot loader. THEN, the boot loader which could be more complex and would specifically match that individual floppy (unlike the boot rom), it would continue the boot, handling whatever format the rest of the disk was. jS From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 9 10:38:28 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 09 May 2009 08:38:28 -0700 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <80A38F9D653B@dunfield.com> References: , <4A04D6D1.23739.64B0582@cclist.sydex.com>, <80A38F9D653B@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <4A054104.28331.7E9DAB6@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 May 2009 at 6:13, Dave Dunfield wrote: > ImageDisk is NOT a CP/M emulator like 22disk - it knows (or cares) > nothing about high level disk formats (file systems). Although it has > a F)ormat command, it's is a LOW-LEVEL format only and does not create > a recognisable file system. It is mainly for testing and the creation > of custom disks. Beg pardon, Dave. 22Disk doesn't emulate anything. It converts (and can format), but doesn't emulate. That's 22Nice's job. For that matter, if all one wanted to do was to create an arbitrary blank disk with different formatting on each track, Anadiisk's often- overlooked format feature can do some pretty bizarre stuff. --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Sat May 9 10:48:15 2009 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 10:48:15 -0500 Subject: FFS: AST 386 Upgrade Board Message-ID: <51ea77730905090848h76f13b0dnf714db5836298fc@mail.gmail.com> I can't find a model number on this board. It was in a box with AST SixPakPlus and AST SuperPak manuals (which I have scanned) yet it doesn't appear to be either of those boards. It's an ISA card with a 386 chip, a 387 socket and some RAM on it. There is a ribbon cable ending in either an 8088 or 80286 pin array (it's been a while since I've seen them.) If someone out there wants it, just pay for shipping from 60074 zip. Here are a couple pics: Board: http://www.flickr.com/photos/chiclassiccomp/3515081211/sizes/o/in/set-72157604070207238/ Connector: http://www.flickr.com/photos/chiclassiccomp/3515081109/in/set-72157604070207238/ -- silent700.blogspot.com Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat May 9 12:39:30 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 10:39:30 -0700 Subject: FFS: AST 386 Upgrade Board In-Reply-To: <51ea77730905090848h76f13b0dnf714db5836298fc@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730905090848h76f13b0dnf714db5836298fc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0D54F585-414D-4F14-A05A-13D524989960@mail.msu.edu> I'll take it off your hands if it hasn't already been claimed. Thanks! Josh On May 9, 2009, at 8:48 AM, Jason T wrote: > I can't find a model number on this board. It was in a box with AST > SixPakPlus and AST SuperPak manuals (which I have scanned) yet it > doesn't appear to be either of those boards. It's an ISA card with a > 386 chip, a 387 socket and some RAM on it. There is a ribbon cable > ending in either an 8088 or 80286 pin array (it's been a while since > I've seen them.) If someone out there wants it, just pay for shipping > from 60074 zip. Here are a couple pics: > > Board: http://www.flickr.com/photos/chiclassiccomp/3515081211/sizes/o/in/set-72157604070207238/ > > Connector: http://www.flickr.com/photos/chiclassiccomp/3515081109/in/set-72157604070207238/ > > -- > silent700.blogspot.com > Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: > http://chiclassiccomp.org > From nico at farumdata.dk Sat May 9 12:47:11 2009 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 19:47:11 +0200 Subject: non-DEC-compat HW to read RX02's? References: <20090509123226.11CB1BA514F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <200905090923.02865.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <8238E70A761D4C3194DE27E193A1AE5C@udvikling> >> What non-DEC-compatible stuff out there can read RX02's? >> >> Obviously the original RX02 drive can read RX02's... as can all the >> DSD, Sigma, etc. Q-bus, Unibus, Omnibus compatible controllers. >> >> But what can read RX02's using a generic SA801-type drive and a >> PC-clone? > > I'm pretty sure that you're supposed to be able to do this with a > Catweasel and the utils that make a DMK out of them (Tim Mann's name > comes to mind). > I checked my Octopus system, and it says it supports the following DEC formats: RSX 5.25" 400k VMS 3.5" 1.4M VMS 5,25" 400K VMS 8" 251K VT180 5.25" 180K RT11 5.25" 400K RT11 3.5" 720K RT11 5.25" 1.2M Is RX02 identical to one of the formats mentioned above ? You can also take a look at InterMedias site at http://www.intermedia.uk.com/disklist.htm#D Nico From silent700 at gmail.com Sat May 9 15:43:46 2009 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 15:43:46 -0500 Subject: FS: DEC LA12 Correspondent Message-ID: <51ea77730905091343j25bc7872t41865254c3ef6d94@mail.gmail.com> It's Springtime, and that means it's time to pare down the collection. Next up is this lovely DEC portable printing terminal, the LA12-A. This model has the DB25 port, the acoustic coupler and the 300/1200bps internal modem. It's yellowed and a bit dusty, but appears to be working. It responds to keypresses in local mode, at least, and it will print out its config page. I can't get it to talk to my PC via the serial port, but I may not be configuring it correctly. No time for that now, must clean the garage! Asking $25+shipping from 60074. A must for any DEC or terminal (or old yellowed plastic) collector! -- jht From silent700 at gmail.com Sat May 9 17:34:25 2009 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 17:34:25 -0500 Subject: FS: DEC LA12 Correspondent In-Reply-To: <51ea77730905091343j25bc7872t41865254c3ef6d94@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730905091343j25bc7872t41865254c3ef6d94@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730905091534hc307386hd134cd89b94ec2ab@mail.gmail.com> The LA12 has been claimed! -j On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 3:43 PM, Jason T wrote: > It's Springtime, and that means it's time to pare down the collection. > ?Next up is this lovely DEC portable printing terminal, the LA12-A. > This model has the DB25 port, the acoustic coupler and the 300/1200bps > internal modem. ?It's yellowed and a bit dusty, but appears to be > working. ?It responds to keypresses in local mode, at least, and it > will print out its config page. ?I can't get it to talk to my PC via > the serial port, but I may not be configuring it correctly. ?No time > for that now, must clean the garage! > > Asking $25+shipping from 60074. ?A must for any DEC or terminal (or > old yellowed plastic) collector! From silent700 at gmail.com Sat May 9 23:44:09 2009 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 23:44:09 -0500 Subject: FS: IBM Mainframe supplies Message-ID: <51ea77730905092144g240d8c9fj654aba6cc45d43ab@mail.gmail.com> Or at least items found near a mainframe. $10+shipping gets you: 3420 Field Tester - appears to be a tape drive exerciser. 4248 Login Probe - in box with manual IBM P/N 6428316 Kit, ESD Handling - official IBM ESD safety mat. From silent700 at gmail.com Sun May 10 00:40:17 2009 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 00:40:17 -0500 Subject: FS: IBM Mainframe supplies In-Reply-To: <51ea77730905092144g240d8c9fj654aba6cc45d43ab@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730905092144g240d8c9fj654aba6cc45d43ab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730905092240neef9fbet94909ff3e16ea5df@mail.gmail.com> Aaaandd....they're gone! Thanks to all -j On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 11:44 PM, Jason T wrote: > Or at least items found near a mainframe. ?$10+shipping gets you: > > 3420 Field Tester - appears to be a tape drive exerciser. > 4248 Login Probe - in box with manual > IBM P/N 6428316 Kit, ESD Handling - official IBM ESD safety mat. > -- silent700.blogspot.com Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat May 9 09:11:04 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 09 May 2009 10:11:04 -0400 Subject: non-DEC-compat HW to read RX02's? Message-ID: <0KJD0012ZRCRKNZF@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: non-DEC-compat HW to read RX02's? > From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) > Date: Sat, 09 May 2009 08:32:25 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >What non-DEC-compatible stuff out there can read RX02's? DSD880 and a few of the floppy contoller replacement boards. >Obviously the original RX02 drive can read RX02's... as can all the >DSD, Sigma, etc. Q-bus, Unibus, Omnibus compatible controllers. > >But what can read RX02's using a generic SA801-type drive and a PC-clone? Sigma, and DSD. Those used generic drives. The problem is not using a generic drive its the encoding by the controller the drive connects to and generic PC controller (ala 765) is MFM and the DD mode of RX02 is M2FM a different thing. Add to that the RX02 uses mixed SD and DD on the same track means none of the available (then or now) integrated FDCs can produce or read that format. >Several years back I built a doohickey that plugged into a PC's >parallel port and allowed me to step floppy drives and read >bit-timing-information, a track at a time, into a RAM buffer, which >I then dumped into the parallel port and wrote some software >to analyze arbitrary disk formats. I wired the index/sector hole >detector to the MSB RAM line and used it with great success to >analyze and read several 8" and 5.25" hard-sector >floppy formats and eventually pumped a few thousand disks through >the scheme. Not bad for something thrown together on a solderless >breadboard using random TTL chips I had lying around the basement :-). That is what you would need. >Obviously similar devices have been discussed here in the past >decade or two. Is there anything available off the shelf that >can plug into a USB port and let me do similar? Right now the >thought of traveling with a 8" HH floppy drive and a laptop >has a certain appeal as opposed to hauling around a BA23 and >a DSD440 :-). No, not without custom programming. Allison From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat May 9 09:22:34 2009 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 07:22:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The IBM (I've Been Mulling) PC Message-ID: <58541.40709.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 5/7/09, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Actually, it wasn't the IBM PC, XT, AT or PS/2 that > established the > market, but rather the proliferation of cheap far east > clones. A > Taiwanese "XT" couldn't be touched as far as bang for the > buck. Despite 10,000 s/w packages as of 1985-86? Up until that point, I don't remember seeing too many anything but IBM's on desks wherever I looked. Even the public library had a True Blue. Subsequent to that people started buying named clones, followed eventually by cheaper clones, but I think that was mainly in the 286-386 era. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat May 9 09:43:03 2009 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 07:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The IBM (I've Been Mulling) PC Message-ID: <19840.55889.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 5/8/09, Chuck Guzis wrote: > If we had been left with IBM as the only proponent of the > PC, it > might well have been just a memory, like the 5100. If the clone hadn't manages to capture so great a portion of the market (and keep in mind that people bought clones because they were peecee compatible), eventually the price would have dropped and likely many people would have bought one anyway, though granted not as fast as the clone prices did. Would something else have stepped in and rivaled the pc? Possibly, but I really don't think it would be the Amiga or Atari STs. The Amiga had that funky interlaced video thing, and Ataris were, well Ataris. This isn't to run down either, and you could have either for significantly less money then a real IBM. But both were by companies that made game machines. It was the air of professionalism (and again the huge amount of s/w available) that made their market so robust. You were getting a *real* computer, no simply a glorified toy (at least in many people's minds that's what they were). The 5150 became the 5160 before long. Disappear from the market? Oh I really don't think so. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat May 9 10:01:12 2009 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 08:01:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The IBM (I've Been Mulling) PC Message-ID: <724713.53730.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > I am sure somebody would have coded Lotus to some other > desktop x86 type PC and it would have taken off. 123 was modified to run on a number of pseudo-compatibles. None of them took off. Were taken off the desktop oftentimes, and replaced w/an IBM or close-clone. The Apple > II took off just because of visivcalc. I view the apps as > being more important then the hardware. Apps can't run w/o h/w. H/w can't run w/o apps. You can have a really nice app, but no good h/w to run it on (ironically Jobs wrote the BASIC interpreter for the Apple 1 before the h/w was designed). And you can have really nifty h/w wit no apps. It's a matter of what platform the apps are going to be written for.The market to a large degree decides this, but the hardwarez got something to do w/i too. The IBM PC became a > huge hit because it was an open architecture and it had IBM > backing, the clones just made it more universal with > companies having the expensive IBM and Compaq machines and > home users had the lesser clones. I don't think the PC > explosion would have come about without the clones. Explosion are inevitable. Hopefully your particular piece of hardware didn't explode (too often). Mine did from time to time. The microcomputer explosion was inevitable. But what the market needed was a fine StrongMan to take control and guide is into brainless compatibility. And what a fine time to have such a brilliant teleprompt reciter in the White House to guide us into becoming mindless liberal drones. From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat May 9 10:35:30 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 11:35:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <4A04D6D1.23739.64B0582@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4A04D6D1.23739.64B0582@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 May 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 May 2009 at 19:14, Steven Hirsch wrote: > >> Is there a way I can kludge through this with IMD? Or, do the Xerox >> system utilities actually reformat track 0 when you sysgen (in which >> case, it really doesn't matter what track 0 is configured as)? > > It certainly is possible to do this with 22Disk. How?? I have pored over the docs and cannot find a mention of hybrid formats. (I'm a legal owner of 22Disk, BTW - purchased in 1994 from Sydex). -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat May 9 10:37:47 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 11:37:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <80A38F9D653B@dunfield.com> References: <80A38F9D653B@dunfield.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 May 2009, Dave Dunfield wrote: > You CAN low-level format mixed density disks with ImageDisk by making use > of the track exclusion-map feature and F)ormatting the areas of the disk > containing different track types individually - but this is a low-level > format only - the OS may not recognize it (although it should be able to > reformat it even if the system normally requires already low-level formatted > disks). I realized after sending that message that the track exclusion feature would let me do it. > The best way to high-level "format" a disk with ImageDisk however, is to > make an image of disk freshly formatted on the actual system, then simply > W)rite it to new disks as needed. Probably the easiest approach, I agree. -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat May 9 10:40:34 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 11:40:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 9 May 2009, Richard Lynch wrote: > Of the 100 or so Xerox floppies I've archived so far, track 0 varies enough > that my guess is it doesn't matter. I've seen a lot of 26x128 as you > mention, but every once in awhile it is 26x256, and sometimes the interleave > matches the rest of the tracks and sometimes it doesn't. When the disk is > DSDD, track 0 side 1 always matches the rest of the tracks at 26x256, even > if side 0 is 26x128. When I use IMDV to look at track 0, sometimes it's > completely blank and sometimes not. > Richard Interesting. Will SYSGEN write the boot loader and OS to a track formatted as 26x256? Will the firmware recognize this and cold start from it? If so, all the better! I currently have only a single drive operational (waiting for a couple more from another cctech-er) and that's making things a bit more difficult. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat May 9 10:44:59 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 11:44:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: non-DEC-compat HW to read RX02's? In-Reply-To: <20090509123226.11CB1BA514F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20090509123226.11CB1BA514F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 May 2009, Tim Shoppa wrote: > What non-DEC-compatible stuff out there can read RX02's? I'm sure a Catweasel can do it, but doubt that anyone has written the necessary support software. I just purchased one and hope to gain some experience writing drivers. Unfortunately the API documentation is not very helpful. Tons of nitpicky detail with absolutely no overview, theory of operation or context in general. Not to fault the designer, but it's the kind of thing that's easy to end up with when you know the subject so well that the "big picture" is obvious to you, but need a reference for the low-level details. If anyone has suggestions regarding opensource Catweasel code I can study, please speak up? -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat May 9 11:43:55 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 12:43:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <4A059C1E.3070804@cimmeri.com> References: <4A059C1E.3070804@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 May 2009, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > > Steven Hirsch wrote: >> Back to the original subject: >> >> I have IMD chugging away merrily on the Compaticard and, thanks to some >> advice from Dave, can use it as the secondary controller. >> >> Now, I'm trying to figure out how to format a SSDD diskette for the Xerox. >> They use a screwy format where track 0 is FM 128 bytes/sector (26 x 128) >> and all the others are MFM 256 bytes/sector (26 x 256). >> >> Is there a way I can kludge through this with IMD? Or, do the Xerox system >> utilities actually reformat track 0 when you sysgen (in which case, it >> really doesn't matter what track 0 is configured as)? >> >> Steve > Then try to figure it out, Steve. You're doing yourself a disservice by > throwing in the towel so easily on every little question. Thanks for the condescension, John. I'm getting real, real tired of the tone on this list and will probably take a break from any posting here. Now I'm beginning to understand why folks like Sellam left. I'm glad you think that I didn't spend any time trying to work it out myself. -- From philip at axeside.co.uk Sat May 9 12:26:22 2009 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Sat, 09 May 2009 18:26:22 +0100 Subject: Casio AI-1000 info... In-Reply-To: <9653B977-1CEC-4DF4-851C-A6C8632297CF@neurotica.com> References: <4A03A48A.1060109@mail.msu.edu> <9653B977-1CEC-4DF4-851C-A6C8632297CF@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A05BCBE.4070807@axeside.co.uk> >> Does anyone have any detailed information on the Casio AI-1000? This >> is (was) a pocket-sized computer in the vein of those old BASIC >> handhelds, except it's programmable in Lisp, of all things... I'm >> interested in what it's capable of, it just looks like a neat little >> device but there's not a lot of detail out there other than basic >> hardware specs. > > Really...? I've never heard of this. It sounds like a WHOLE lot of > fun! Please share any information that you may find. > >> And of course if anyone has one they're just gonna throw away, drop me >> a line :). I'm afraid mine isn't for the throwing away just yet, but I'll stand in line for the info - any info - if people have it! I got the machine a few years ago when a friend of a friend emigrated to the US and left his classic computer collection behind. (In fact I got most of the collection, because I was the only one in that circle who could afford the storage space. But I digress...) It programs in LISP. It has a japanese text editor in which you type phonetics on the QWERTY keyboard and it generates appropriate syllable characters from one of the Japanese writing systems. I never discovered how to edit a LISP program, so correcting mistakes was rather frustrating... I bought a book on microcomputer LISPs, and the programming examples worked, but it used none of the editing methods in the machine-specific appendices. A word of warning. This machine is not fast. Even a quite simple LISP program can take a while to run. Philip. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat May 9 13:22:46 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 09 May 2009 14:22:46 -0400 Subject: non-DEC-compat HW to read RX02's? Message-ID: <0KJE005L4309LQ7T@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: non-DEC-compat HW to read RX02's? > From: "Nico de Jong" > Date: Sat, 09 May 2009 19:47:11 +0200 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >>> What non-DEC-compatible stuff out there can read RX02's? >>> >>> Obviously the original RX02 drive can read RX02's... as can all the >>> DSD, Sigma, etc. Q-bus, Unibus, Omnibus compatible controllers. >>> >>> But what can read RX02's using a generic SA801-type drive and a >>> PC-clone? >> >> I'm pretty sure that you're supposed to be able to do this with a >> Catweasel and the utils that make a DMK out of them (Tim Mann's name >> comes to mind). >> > >I checked my Octopus system, and it says it supports the following DEC >formats: > >RSX 5.25" 400k > >VMS 3.5" 1.4M >VMS 5,25" 400K >VMS 8" 251K > >VT180 5.25" 180K > >RT11 5.25" 400K >RT11 3.5" 720K >RT11 5.25" 1.2M > >Is RX02 identical to one of the formats mentioned above ? > >You can also take a look at InterMedias site at >http://www.intermedia.uk.com/disklist.htm#D > >Nico No VMS 8" 251K is RX01. All of the others are fairly generic floppy controllers in the host system as DEC generally used the 1793 or SMC chips that did formats reasonable and common. RX02 is very unique. Allison From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat May 9 13:25:28 2009 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 11:25:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? Message-ID: <99031.8360.qm@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> what are the particulars of a Compaticard's hardware? From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat May 9 16:58:52 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 17:58:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <99031.8360.qm@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <99031.8360.qm@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 May 2009, Chris M wrote: > what are the particulars of a Compaticard's hardware? See Chuck's wonderful writeup earlier in this thread. -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat May 9 17:15:45 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 18:15:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: non-DEC-compat HW to read RX02's? In-Reply-To: References: <20090509123226.11CB1BA514F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 May 2009, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Sat, 9 May 2009, Tim Shoppa wrote: > >> What non-DEC-compatible stuff out there can read RX02's? > > I'm sure a Catweasel can do it, but doubt that anyone has written the > necessary support software. > > I just purchased one and hope to gain some experience writing drivers. > Unfortunately the API documentation is not very helpful. Tons of > nitpicky detail with absolutely no overview, theory of operation or > context in general. Not to fault the designer, but it's the kind of > thing that's easy to end up with when you know the subject so well that > the "big picture" is obvious to you, but need a reference for the > low-level details. Found an open source Catweasel driver for Linux, and the sources are extremely helpful in deciphering its operation. Following a link from the page, I tripped over: http://www.tim-mann.org/catweasel.html Most of the verbiage deals with its use in reading and writing TRS-80 formats, but buried in the docs was the news that it can read and write RX02 formats. Steve -- From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 10 01:49:32 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 09 May 2009 23:49:32 -0700 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: References: , <4A04D6D1.23739.64B0582@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4A06168C.983.B2C2081@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 May 2009 at 11:35, Steven Hirsch wrote: > How?? I have pored over the docs and cannot find a mention of hybrid > formats. (I'm a legal owner of 22Disk, BTW - purchased in 1994 from > Sydex). Simple, actually. Do a double format. Use the normal 16/8 820 definition to lay down your 26x256 MFM format, then create an extra 1 track (CYLINDERS 1) definition for the FM part. Instructions for creating format definitions are in the docs--the CP/M BSH, BLM, etc. doesn't matter during format. Use "SIDES 1" to make sure that you're doing only a single track and not both sides. If you want to write an FM boot track, create a file with the data to be written with a .LBL extension and add the name of the file to the second definition with a "LABEL filename" clause. Use "OFS 1" to keep it on that track. Run the normal format first, then the 1-track format afterwards. If you invoke CFMT from a batch file, you can include both formats in the batch file to run consecutively. --Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun May 10 03:04:03 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 01:04:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: P112 mailing list Message-ID: FYI, if you were on the P112 mailing list previously (like back in 2006-2007), you'll need to resub again. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From js at cimmeri.com Sun May 10 10:40:09 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 10:40:09 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: References: <4A059C1E.3070804@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <4A06F559.1020108@cimmeri.com> Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Sat, 9 May 2009, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > >> >> >> Steven Hirsch wrote: >>> Back to the original subject: >>> >>> I have IMD chugging away merrily on the Compaticard and, thanks to >>> some advice from Dave, can use it as the secondary controller. >>> >>> Now, I'm trying to figure out how to format a SSDD diskette for the >>> Xerox. They use a screwy format where track 0 is FM 128 bytes/sector >>> (26 x 128) and all the others are MFM 256 bytes/sector (26 x 256). >>> >>> Is there a way I can kludge through this with IMD? Or, do the Xerox >>> system utilities actually reformat track 0 when you sysgen (in which >>> case, it really doesn't matter what track 0 is configured as)? >>> >>> Steve >> Then try to figure it out, Steve. You're doing yourself a disservice >> by throwing in the towel so easily on every little question. > > Thanks for the condescension, John. I'm getting real, real tired of > the tone on this list and will probably take a break from any posting > here. Now I'm beginning to understand why folks like Sellam left. > > I'm glad you think that I didn't spend any time trying to work it out > myself. > > Likewise, I'm starting to get tired of the sense of entitlement and whining behaviors you've had on display lately over when people here don't provide you with what you need, or fast enough. For example, the way you were hollering at everyone the other day because no one had replied to your request for 820 disks or whatever.. was just being a tad too demanding. This group isn't the hired staff of "Best Buy" with you being a customer. And your emails following Dunfield's response (already elaborated upon earlier) were oozing with negativity. You were blaming everyone else for having a bad mood, when it was YOU in the bad mood. Anyway, we're free to state opinions here. If I posted a question here every time I hit the most minor of snags, I would EXPECT some people to get annoyed with me. I've learned the most when people have ignored me for the right amount of time. Of course, you have responded to that thrust with MORE negativity. jS From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun May 10 11:18:22 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 12:18:22 -0400 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <4A06F559.1020108@cimmeri.com> References: <4A06F559.1020108@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <200905101218.22359.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 10 May 2009, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > Likewise, I'm starting to get tired of the sense of entitlement and > whining behaviors you've had on display lately over when people here > don't provide you with what you need, or fast enough. I'm not sure how you whine over an email, but I thought that the point of mailing lists was to talk to other people, and in part to get help on things that you don't understand or don't know. > If I posted a question here every time I hit the most minor of snags, > I would EXPECT some people to get annoyed with me. I'm pretty sure that not eveyone here has the same knowledge or skill set, so what's minor to you is probably not to other people that have no knowledge of it. In any case, I've learned that IT people can't communicate well, and can be a pain in the ass to deal with because we generally have bad interpersonal skills. You can do a lot of hard work and try to please people here, but you still get yelled at for doing a "disservice" or "not a good enough job". Even if you work out your differences, it wears down on you over time. It's dumb arguments like this one that drive people like me away from this community. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun May 10 13:13:00 2009 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 11:13:00 -0700 Subject: non-DEC-compat HW to read RX02's? In-Reply-To: References: <20090509123226.11CB1BA514F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200905101113.01103.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Saturday 09 May 2009, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Sat, 9 May 2009, Steven Hirsch wrote: > > On Sat, 9 May 2009, Tim Shoppa wrote: > >> What non-DEC-compatible stuff out there can read RX02's? > > > > I'm sure a Catweasel can do it, but doubt that anyone has written the > > necessary support software. > > > > I just purchased one and hope to gain some experience writing drivers. > > Unfortunately the API documentation is not very helpful. Tons of > > nitpicky detail with absolutely no overview, theory of operation or > > context in general. Not to fault the designer, but it's the kind of > > thing that's easy to end up with when you know the subject so well > > that the "big picture" is obvious to you, but need a reference for the > > low-level details. > > Found an open source Catweasel driver for Linux, and the sources are > extremely helpful in deciphering its operation. Following a link from > the page, I tripped over: > > http://www.tim-mann.org/catweasel.html > > Most of the verbiage deals with its use in reading and writing TRS-80 > formats, but buried in the docs was the news that it can read and write > RX02 formats. Yes, Tim did a lot of excellent work on the Catweasel driver. Unfortunately, there is something buggy in the RX02 reading and/or writing. I tried reading multiple RX02 diskettes with Tim's software - and it created images w/o reporting errors. However, when I attempted to re-create RX02s from the images, it did so - but the newly created diskettes were NOT readable by a real RX02. I emailed Tim about this at the time, but IIRC, he didn't have an RX02 available to do testing against the "read thing". Tim asked me to collect some debugging data - I did so, bot ended up dropping the ball when I my non-hobby work load went crazy (it still is)... Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are were God is dividing by zero" From legalize at xmission.com Sun May 10 13:32:36 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 12:32:36 -0600 Subject: govliq: Gould Concept/32 model 32/67 & Kennedy 9-track tape (Jacksonville, FL) Message-ID: GOULD CHASSIS CONCEPT/ 32 SERIAL #285015, . MUTILATION NOT REQUIRED. GOULD KENNEDY TAPE DRIVE MODEL #9220, SERIAL #VGM-02039, . MUTILATION NOT REQUIRED. Looks fairly intact from the pictures. Auction ends 5/11, tommorrow. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From alhartman at yahoo.com Sun May 10 13:34:11 2009 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 11:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The IBM (I've Been Mulling) PC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <893951.1817.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com> In the beginning, there were several early PC Clones and work-alikes. A friend of mine had the Columbia MPC. By the time we were done with it, it had a Vide0-7 VGA card (that had a Micro-channel interface if you flipped the board the other way.), a Lightning 286 upgrade card, a Trackstar 128 Apple II on a board. I was really sorry when he trashed it. That was a nice, reliable machine. Zebra Systems had several like the Eagle PC seen over Stewart's shoulder in the Wall Street Journal video, which was a turbo XT clone. We also had a Televideo box which was an MS-DOS Compatible box that used an intelligent terminal rather than a keyboard and MGA/CGA display. I ran Wordstar, dBase II, and Fancy Font on that machine to do our ads. It replaced our IMSAI 8080 (with a Z-80 card) as our main system for order processing (using dBase II). I worked for a time for a company that sold American XT clones from a guys house. They were exact clones of the 5150 and 5160 in that you could burn a set of IBM Bios ROMs and the machine would be 100% compatible with a PC/XT and have BASIC in ROM if you put those chips in too. My first PC was an XT clone with Phoenix BIOS that had turbo mode and a V-20 chip which made it much faster than a stock PC. It had two 13mb Seagate drives and I ran my BBS off it until I sold it in favor of a 286 clone I built from parts. It had a neat flip-top case (like a car hood). I still have the keyboard from it, because it was a great keyboard and I continued to use it on the 286. I had a rear panel reset and turbo switch in a bracket as the case didn't have up-front lights or buttons. I miss those days. Al Phila, PA (Formerly of Brooklyn, NY) From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun May 10 15:40:47 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 21:40:47 +0100 Subject: The IBM (I've Been Mulling) PC In-Reply-To: <724713.53730.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <724713.53730.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1241988047.4263.65.camel@elric> On Sat, 2009-05-09 at 08:01 -0700, Chris M wrote: Apps can't run woh hwuh? What? Dude, speak *English*... Gordon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun May 10 15:47:38 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 21:47:38 +0100 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <4A06F559.1020108@cimmeri.com> References: <4A059C1E.3070804@cimmeri.com> <4A06F559.1020108@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <1241988458.4263.70.camel@elric> On Sun, 2009-05-10 at 10:40 -0500, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > Anyway, we're free to state opinions here. If I posted a question here > every time I hit the most minor of snags, I would EXPECT some people to > get annoyed with me. I've learned the most when people have ignored me > for the right amount of time. Of course, you have responded to that > thrust with MORE negativity. If you're using an approximately PC-like keyboard (this includes modern Macs) then take a look at the keyboard. Do you see the big "Return" key? It may be marked with a back-to-front-L shaped arrow. Got it? Okay. Now move your pinky about 13mm (half an inch, for you new-world-old-units people). See the bottom left one in that little group of six? It may be marked "Del", or "Delete". That allows you to "delete" messages that you don't want to read. If that doesn't work for you, then you could try just not reading the thread. At the very least, stop replying to so many of the original poster's emails with whining about him whining. Gordon From lists at databasics.us Sun May 10 17:12:05 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 12:12:05 -1000 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <1241988458.4263.70.camel@elric> References: <4A059C1E.3070804@cimmeri.com> <4A06F559.1020108@cimmeri.com> <1241988458.4263.70.camel@elric> Message-ID: <4A075135.5010001@databasics.us> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: At the very least, stop replying to so many of the original poster's emails with whining about him whining. Oh. My. God. This is a meta-meta-whine... One further level of abstraction. Before you know it, we.... hey, wait a minute. Now *I'M* doing it, too! A meta-meta-meta-whine! Dang. How much stack space does this list have? Warren p.s. No offense intended, Gordon From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun May 10 18:25:05 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 18:25:05 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <1241988458.4263.70.camel@elric> References: <4A059C1E.3070804@cimmeri.com> <4A06F559.1020108@cimmeri.com> <1241988458.4263.70.camel@elric> Message-ID: <4A076251.6030104@gmail.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > If you're using an approximately PC-like keyboard (this includes modern > Macs) then take a look at the keyboard. Do you see the big "Return" > key? Mine says "Enter" :P > If that doesn't work for you, then you could try just not reading the > thread. At the very least, stop replying to so many of the original > poster's emails with whining about him whining. We obviously need a ccwhine list... ;) From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun May 10 22:10:10 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 23:10:10 -0400 Subject: S-100 prototyping board project Message-ID: <3D5AF7C4228846A59B429372DA61C3D2@andrewdesktop> Hi! As a compliment to the N8VEM S-100 backplane project, I am designing an S-100 card edge connector in KiCAD. As a demonstration I am including it in an S-100 prototyping board. Please take a look and thorough review. Any comments, suggestions, and/or questions are welcome. If there is sufficient interest I may do a small PCB manufacturing run. I estimate each PCB would be in the $25 range depending on quantity. The initial run would be primarily for testing purposes so would be rather small. I still have 4 of the 8 initial N8VEM S-100 backplane PCBs so if anyone would like to get involved that would be great. The PCBs are $32 each plus $2 shipping in the US. The good news is that by waiting you now know the parts all fit, that it seems to work, the active terminator circuit appears to be working correctly; the S-100 connectors are installed and seem to have all the proper voltages. In other words, your risk of a total dud project has been dramatically reduced. There are two new files in the N8VEM S-100 wiki; one is the "blank" board with outline of an S-100 board and the edge connector as a template for KiCAD and the other is an S-100 prototyping board which uses the template. I have compared the template against IEEE-696 and also several S-100 boards in my collection. I have to admit I am a bit disturbed by how much variation there is in S-100 mechanical tolerances. They all seem to fit but the variations are quite large between manufacturers, the standard, versions of PCBs, etc. http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=S100 Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun May 10 22:21:30 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 23:21:30 -0400 Subject: 8 bit SBC with floppy controller for disk archiving [was: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format?] Message-ID: Hi! I sent this message earlier but it seems to have gotten drowned in all the unpleasantness. Hopefully we can move on to something more constructive. If anyone would like to discuss disk archiving legacy formats with an existing low cost home brew Z80 CP/M SBC and Disk IO board I think the N8VEM project would make a great starting point. It does everything described by Jules and is common enough now to have a decent support base. There are at least one hundred N8VEM SBC owners so that might be helpful in using it to archive disks. It uses a standard Intel 8272/NEC 765A FDC with some extensions for use with formats other than the usual 5.25"/3.5" DSDD/DSHD. Especially when paired with an IDE CF adapter I think it would be a very useful tool. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 5:35 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? On 7 May 2009 at 13:47, Jules Richardson wrote: > No, I suppose not. I wonder if they ever toyed with the idea of > rolling their own - perhaps a board containing a little 8-bitter which > was responsible for a few other useful functions (RS232, parallel > maybe) too. I suppose RAM/ROM costs around then made it unworkable > even if they had the skills readily on-tap (not to mention that it > probably wouldn't fit in with the idea of what the PC was supposed to > be!) Commodore 1541? Actually, they'd done that one already. Think about the IBM 5100/5110 with the 5114 diskette drive unit. I don't think they even wanted to think about putting something like that on a "personal computer"... --Chuck -----REPLY----- Hi Chuck, Jules! At least in theory, the N8VEM SBC mated with its Disk IO board provides this capability right now. The N8VEM SBC has 512K SRAM for immediate storage, the Disk IO supports IDE and NEC765 FDC capability. Attach a IDE to CF adapter (several varieties of those have been demonstrated to work or just use an old IDE hard drive) for storage and use the SBC serial port for operator IO. Connect the SBC to the Disk IO board via a 64 pin DIN 41612 IDC connector and short 64 conductor ribbon cable for a nice and compact two board (stacked Eurocard) solution powered by 5VDC only. The SBC boots CP/M 2.2 from its ROM drive which could be easily augmented with CP/M applications to manage the floppy disk transfer functionality. I designed the system with something like this in mind and there are at least the beginnings of the software necessary to accomplish it. The Disk IO board even includes special control and data signal access for raw disk reads and 8" floppy drive manipulation if someone were *REALLY* ambitious. I spent quite a bit of time working on this design along those lines but the Disk IO was such a beast I rather burned out on it. Since the PCBs and parts are all available now if someone wanted to pick this up the hardware is essentially completed, some of the software, and you're most of the way there. It would "only" take someone with the desire to write the software to make this happen -- basically comfortable old CP/M and Z80 assembler. I've moved on to other things in the N8VEM project. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 10 22:52:24 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 20:52:24 -0700 Subject: 8 bit SBC with floppy controller for disk archiving [was: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format?] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A073E88.30304.FAFFFD3@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 May 2009 at 23:21, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi! I sent this message earlier but it seems to have gotten drowned > in all the unpleasantness. Hopefully we can move on to something more > constructive. If anyone would like to discuss disk archiving legacy > formats with an existing low cost home brew Z80 CP/M SBC and Disk IO > board I think the N8VEM project would make a great starting point. > > It does everything described by Jules and is common enough now to have > a decent support base. There are at least one hundred N8VEM SBC > owners so that might be helpful in using it to archive disks. It uses > a standard Intel 8272/NEC 765A FDC with some extensions for use with > formats other than the usual 5.25"/3.5" DSDD/DSHD. Especially when > paired with an IDE CF adapter I think it would be a very useful tool. By "extensions" what do you mean, Andrew? Will it archive Victor 9000 diskettes? --Chuck From dm561 at torfree.net Mon May 11 01:22:40 2009 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 02:22:40 -0400 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? Message-ID: <01C9D1DF.76A1D7C0@MSE_D03> ---------------Original Message: Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 12:18:22 -0400 From: Patrick Finnegan Subject: Re: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? On Sunday 10 May 2009, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > Likewise, I'm starting to get tired of the sense of entitlement and > whining behaviors you've had on display lately over when people here > don't provide you with what you need, or fast enough. I'm not sure how you whine over an email, but I thought that the point of mailing lists was to talk to other people, and in part to get help on things that you don't understand or don't know. > If I posted a question here every time I hit the most minor of snags, > I would EXPECT some people to get annoyed with me. I'm pretty sure that not eveyone here has the same knowledge or skill set, so what's minor to you is probably not to other people that have no knowledge of it. In any case, I've learned that IT people can't communicate well, and can be a pain in the ass to deal with because we generally have bad interpersonal skills. You can do a lot of hard work and try to please people here, but you still get yelled at for doing a "disservice" or "not a good enough job". Even if you work out your differences, it wears down on you over time. It's dumb arguments like this one that drive people like me away from this community. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org ************************ Reply: What dumb argument? Yes, one of the points of a list like this is to ask for and give help, but even in this day and age concepts like "please" and "thank you" and showing appreciation instead of complaining and taking others and their contributions for granted still have some value. The OP asked for information and help about 22disk and IMD and despite the denigrating tone of his questions the authors of both of these programs took the time to answer his questions at length and in detail, enabling him to resolve his issues, and apparently someone on this list also took the time to send him the TD disks that he asked for. What are his final words on the issue? Appreciation for those people and this list which gave him access to them? No, now that he got what he needed from the list he tells us, "I'm getting real, real tired of the tone on this list and will probably take a break from any posting here. Now I'm beginning to understand why folks like Sellam left." Not surprising; as I recall some people were also annoyed by Sellam's rude and insulting attitude and language and not entirely sorry to see *him* leave. If Chuck and Dave and the person who sent the disks had the same attitude and had left the list (and, considering the crap that Dave has had to put up with in the past I wouldn't blame him at all) then OP would still be staring at his 820 paperweight. When someone suggests to OP that his negative tone and attitude might annoy some people who might then be less eager to help him next time, then that might be seen as an opportunity to improve those "bad interpersonal skills" that you mention, instead of evoking a defensive response... m From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat May 9 10:04:00 2009 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 08:04:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The IBM (I've Been Mulling) PC Message-ID: <336626.31714.qm@web65510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 5/8/09, Chuck Guzis wrote: > From: Chuck Guzis I > imagine that if IBM had > acquired Microsoft, we'd all be running some flavor of Unix > now. and in public you're willing to confess openly that you ain't run a UNIX flava? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat May 9 10:06:48 2009 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 08:06:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The IBM (I've Been Mulling) PC Message-ID: <669894.70205.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 5/8/09, Fred Cisin wrote: > VisiCalc > Easy Writer > and didn't IBM sell a MICROS~1 port of Adventure? (Colossal > Cave) > > What more could anybody want? (no, that WAS > sarcasm) I wish I still had the copy of Advent for the peecee. That's what I want. I could get big buckos for it on ePay. From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun May 10 08:25:07 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 09:25:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wanted: Corvus Z80 "Universal" Transporter Message-ID: I'm still looking for one of the above. This was a daughterboard designed to sandwich between a Z80 and its socket. It carried the Corvus proprietary chipset and permitted any CP/M machine to become a client on their Omninet network. If anyone even knows who has one, I'd appreciate a lead. In a pinch, given good photos I can likely reverse engineer the PCB and build my own (have a slew of Apple 2 transporters to harvest the chips from). The device is mentioned in one of the Appendices to DRI's CP/NET technical docs, FWIW. Steve -- From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun May 10 11:11:30 2009 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 09:11:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 11c typewriter Message-ID: <183449.47275.qm@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> too bad they're virtually worthless. Just picked one off the side of the road - fresh. woe is me. There's 1 on eBay right now, bin, 26$ US. There's something wrong w/the world... From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon May 11 02:37:33 2009 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 09:37:33 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Available PDP-11/35 Message-ID: <39318.212.67.167.228.1242027453.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hello All, I have available one PDP 11/35 in BA-23 box configuration. Processor comes with base CPU, MMU & stacklimit register. No EIS, FIS or RTC is included. This machine is the last spare we had for a customer. 2 others have already found a good home and are well cared for. Contact me off list for more details if needed. Pictures to be seen at www.groenenberg.net/download/junk -- Certified : VCP 3.x, SCSI 3.x SCSA S10, SCNA S10 From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon May 11 02:46:59 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 09:46:59 +0200 Subject: Available PDP-11/35 In-Reply-To: <39318.212.67.167.228.1242027453.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <39318.212.67.167.228.1242027453.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20090511074659.GA14465@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 09:37:33AM +0200, Ed Groenenberg wrote: > Hello All, > > I have available one PDP 11/35 in BA-23 box configuration. > Processor comes with base CPU, MMU & stacklimit register. > No EIS, FIS or RTC is included. > This machine is the last spare we had for a customer. > 2 others have already found a good home and are well cared for. > > Contact me off list for more details if needed. > > Pictures to be seen at www.groenenberg.net/download/junk > I guess this is in the Netherlands? Amsterdam maybe? I would take it, but I doubt I can arrange the shipping. Any chance you will travel to sweden soon :) ? Kind Regards, Pontus. From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon May 11 03:01:09 2009 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 10:01:09 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Available PDP-11/35 Message-ID: <44511.212.67.167.228.1242028869.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hello Pontus, It's near Arnhem, and it's to heavy to ship, unless you want to pay for it. BTW, the machine is not for free, I'll send an update to the list. Make me an offer if still interested but I'll wait for some time before it will go to the highest offer as I need the money for finishing our new house. Best regards, Ed > On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 09:37:33AM +0200, Ed Groenenberg wrote: >> Hello All, >> >> I have available one PDP 11/35 in BA-23 box configuration. >> Processor comes with base CPU, MMU & stacklimit register. >> No EIS, FIS or RTC is included. >> This machine is the last spare we had for a customer. >> 2 others have already found a good home and are well cared for. >> >> Contact me off list for more details if needed. >> >> Pictures to be seen at www.groenenberg.net/download/junk >> > > > I guess this is in the Netherlands? Amsterdam maybe? > > I would take it, but I doubt I can arrange the shipping. Any chance you > will travel to sweden soon :) ? > > Kind Regards, > Pontus. > -- Certified : VCP 3.x, SCSI 3.x SCSA S10, SCNA S10 From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon May 11 03:05:15 2009 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 10:05:15 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Available PDP-11/35 Message-ID: <45707.212.67.167.228.1242029115.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Forgot to tell that the machine is not for free, make an offer off-list. Hate to part it out, but can be done if needed. Box serialno on paper label and metal adhesive label match. Shipping is possible, but machine is wired for 220V single phase and is heavy!. If to be shipped, it will be boxed in a plywood box for transport. Pickup is possible of course. Ed > Hello All, > > I have available one PDP 11/35 in BA-23 box configuration. > Processor comes with base CPU, MMU & stacklimit register. > No EIS, FIS or RTC is included. > This machine is the last spare we had for a customer. > 2 others have already found a good home and are well cared for. > > Contact me off list for more details if needed. > > Pictures to be seen at www.groenenberg.net/download/junk > > > -- > Certified : VCP 3.x, SCSI 3.x SCSA S10, SCNA S10 > > -- Certified : VCP 3.x, SCSI 3.x SCSA S10, SCNA S10 From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon May 11 03:12:13 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 10:12:13 +0200 Subject: Available PDP-11/35 In-Reply-To: <44511.212.67.167.228.1242028869.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <44511.212.67.167.228.1242028869.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20090511081213.GA28445@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 10:01:09AM +0200, Ed Groenenberg wrote: > Hello Pontus, > > It's near Arnhem, and it's to heavy to ship, unless you want to pay > for it. BTW, the machine is not for free, I'll send an update to > the list. > Make me an offer if still interested but I'll wait for some time > before it will go to the highest offer as I need the money for > finishing our new house. > > Best regards, > > Ed > I thought it was to good to be true. The shipping alone would kill my hobby-budget I think :) I hope you get a good offer (I think you will, it's a nice machine). Kind regards, Pontus From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon May 11 03:14:55 2009 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 10:14:55 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Available PDP-11/35 Message-ID: <48584.212.67.167.228.1242029695.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> That wasn't supposed to be to go on the list, but hey, it's Monday morning... > Hello Pontus, > -- Certified : VCP 3.x, SCSI 3.x SCSA S10, SCNA S10 From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon May 11 05:20:18 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 12:20:18 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Available PDP-11/35 In-Reply-To: <45707.212.67.167.228.1242029115.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <45707.212.67.167.228.1242029115.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 May 2009, Ed Groenenberg wrote: > Forgot to tell that the machine is not for free, make an offer off-list. ... and that the 11/35 (like a 11/40) shouldn't be in a BA23 box. I wonder how you fit the frontpanel to a BA23. Christian From tiggerlasv at aim.com Mon May 11 05:37:37 2009 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 06:37:37 -0400 Subject: Available PDP-11/35 Message-ID: <8CBA03BA326891E-DC-70EF@webmail-mh44.sysops.aol.com> I think he may have meant "PDP-11/53" . . . assuming it is in a BA23 chassis. . . From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon May 11 05:52:47 2009 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 12:52:47 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Available PDP-11/35 Message-ID: <33741.212.67.167.228.1242039167.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hello Christian, Yep, it's a BA-11 not an BA23 (it was Monday morning when I typed the msg ;) Otherwise it would indeed be difficult to mount the frontpanel onto it. Ed > On Mon, 11 May 2009, Ed Groenenberg wrote: >> Forgot to tell that the machine is not for free, make an offer off-list. > > ... and that the 11/35 (like a 11/40) shouldn't be in a BA23 box. I wonder > how you fit the frontpanel to a BA23. > > Christian > -- Certified : VCP 3.x, SCSI 3.x SCSA S10, SCNA S10 From emu at e-bbes.com Mon May 11 07:29:03 2009 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 06:29:03 -0600 Subject: 8 bit SBC with floppy controller for disk archiving [was: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format?] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A081A0F.8030704@e-bbes.com> Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi! I sent this message earlier but it seems to have gotten drowned in all > the unpleasantness. Sometimes, this list is weird. > Hopefully we can move on to something more > constructive. If anyone would like to discuss disk archiving legacy formats > with an existing low cost home brew Z80 CP/M SBC and Disk IO board I think > the N8VEM project would make a great starting point. I was wondering about it too, and waiting for you to come up ;-) Anyway, I hope you don't mind if I post the links to two pictures which hopefully show how it could work: a.) the cpu board http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/f/IMG_5762.jpg b.) the fdc http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/f/IMG_8632.JPG So, if you use a right angled power-connector on the cpu, you could probably just stack those two board on top of each other, without the need of the bus backplane. My thoughts to all of this: 1.) I don't care about the sd-flash, Not sure if it really helps. After all, we still talk about floppies, so a decent V24 should be good enough to send /receive data from a floppy. 2.) The board is missing the 8" floppy connector, which is bad. Would make it easier to get the people playing with it. I know, you can wire it up easily, but you probably like to get the software people on board too ? ;-) Cheers STANDARD DISCLAIMER : (SORRY, I'M NOT INVOLVED IN THIS PROJECT AT ALL, BUT I'M WATCHING IT FOR A WHILE. LIKED TO PLAY WITH CP/M AND Z80 BEFORE) From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon May 11 09:00:14 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 15:00:14 +0100 Subject: Available PDP-11/35 In-Reply-To: References: <45707.212.67.167.228.1242029115.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4A082F6E.1040008@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/05/2009 11:20, Christian Corti wrote: > On Mon, 11 May 2009, Ed Groenenberg wrote: >> Forgot to tell that the machine is not for free, make an offer off-list. > > ... and that the 11/35 (like a 11/40) shouldn't be in a BA23 box. I > wonder how you fit the frontpanel to a BA23. I wondered that too... On 11/05/2009 11:37, tiggerlasv at aim.com wrote: > > I think he may have meant "PDP-11/53" . . . assuming it is in a BA23 > chassis. . . ...so I looked at the pictures -- no, it's just a typo. It's in the usual small BA11. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From legalize at xmission.com Mon May 11 11:39:50 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 10:39:50 -0600 Subject: IBM 11c typewriter In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 10 May 2009 09:11:30 -0700. <183449.47275.qm@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <183449.47275.qm at web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, Chris M writes: > too bad they're virtually worthless. Just picked one off the side > of the road - fresh. woe is me. There's 1 on eBay right now, bin, 26$ > US. There's somethin g wrong w/the world... > > > What's special about an 11c? I saw the picture of the one on ebay and I remember seeing them around the University of Delaware, although the Selectric II was more common. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From js at cimmeri.com Mon May 11 11:44:44 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 11:44:44 -0500 Subject: List behavior (spinoff from Re: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format?) In-Reply-To: <01C9D1DF.76A1D7C0@MSE_D03> References: <01C9D1DF.76A1D7C0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <4A0855FC.3000006@cimmeri.com> ************************ Reply: M H Stein wrote: What dumb argument? Yes, one of the points of a list like this is to ask for and give help, but even in this day and age concepts like "please" and "thank you" and showing appreciation instead of complaining and taking others and their contributions for granted still have some value. The OP asked for information and help about 22disk and IMD and despite the denigrating tone of his questions the authors of both of these programs took the time to answer his questions at length and in detail, enabling him to resolve his issues, and apparently someone on this list also took the time to send him the TD disks that he asked for. What are his final words on the issue? Appreciation for those people and this list which gave him access to them? No, now that he got what he needed from the list he tells us, "I'm getting real, real tired of the tone on this list and will probably take a break from any posting here. Now I'm beginning to understand why folks like Sellam left." Not surprising; as I recall some people were also annoyed by Sellam's rude and insulting attitude and language and not entirely sorry to see *him* leave. If Chuck and Dave and the person who sent the disks had the same attitude and had left the list (and, considering the crap that Dave has had to put up with in the past I wouldn't blame him at all) then OP would still be staring at his 820 paperweight. When someone suggests to OP that his negative tone and attitude might annoy some people who might then be less eager to help him next time, then that might be seen as an opportunity to improve those "bad interpersonal skills" that you mention, instead of evoking a defensive response... m --------------------------- Nice to know at least one person gets what I was trying to say! I thought that there are two CCTalk lists: CCTalk for on *and* off topic posts, and CCTech for only on-topic posts. Therefore, I don't get why a few people have posted or emailed me insulting and provocative messages trying to push me around about what or what not to read and post (eg. Gordon). I only take posting orders from list moderators or owners. I'd been following the Xerox thread as I have some knowledge about it, but began to have reactions to how the OP Steven was utilizing the membership-at-large. I've only posted two "reactions" emails -- the few others were either on-topic, jokes, or explanation-of-jokes. I'm acquainted with this OP. I typically enjoy his posts in other groups, and have helped him out before, even once by testing video equipment he mailed to my house. So why my reactions? Putting aside Steve for a moment, once in awhile, I witness an OP come along and take these mailing lists and online groups for granted.. treating the really wonderful and astonishingly knowledgeable and smart people of these groups as *only* "resources" to do their bidding. There are "regulars" of this kind of behavior, and then there are those who just occasionally forget their manners due to excitement or having a rough time in life. Further, at these times, the "resources" are seemingly expected to drop everything they're doing like they're some help desk, and respond ASAP for whatever is needed since the OP's particular project is of the greatest import and urgency. Lastly, after the OP has usually managed to guilt-induce or otherwise garnish an incredible outpouring of help from the "resources," almost without fail the OP then expresses little to no appreciation! What??! Every time I witness this pattern, it amazes me. Well, I know it's not my job to protect memberships, but dammit, if something bothers me, I don't see why I shouldn't say something. Feedback between humans is essential for growth, period. Here's an example: if women had never told me how incredibly stupid I was being with them in my 20's and early 30's, I'd have never matured. I'd still be pining away as one girlfriend after another leaves me, without knowing why. Luckily, a few women were brave enough to slam me with the truth. It eventually hit home, I slowly grew up, and women stopped leaving me as quickly or at all (unless I wanted them to.. lol). Back to OP Steve. His approach (on this particular topic *only*) warranted feedback, plain and simple. He was coming across as spoiled, impatient, humourless, and bad moody. Not in every post. But in enough. "The real real tired of tone on list" comment was last straw for me. A huge outpouring of help, one little comment from me trying to encourage him to push himself a little harder, and now the TONE of this entire list is TIRING? Well, to that implied FU, FU too! My resultant comments, as Battle politely and privately pointed out to me, perhaps should have been emailed privately. Maybe I goofed, or maybe the feedback has more impact if it's public. Who knows. If an OP is going to denigrate the whole group and pack up their toys and go home just because ONE guy gives them a smidgeon of feedback they find unpleasant, despite the vastly greater benefits they derived, then maybe that's just what they need to do. It's their call whether they want to shoot themselves in the foot or not. Human interaction IS MESSY. It's always got good and bad, pleasant and unpleasant, elegance and sloppiness. I say, deal with it, listen to it, learn from it, be thankful it's there at all. jS From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 11 12:16:29 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 10:16:29 -0700 Subject: govliq: Gould Concept/32 model 32/67 & Kennedy 9-track tape (Jacksonville, FL) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A085D6D.4000803@bitsavers.org> Richard wrote: > > GOULD CHASSIS CONCEPT/ 32 SERIAL #285015, . MUTILATION NOT REQUIRED. > I hope someone can pick this up. Gould Series 32 machines are getting pretty rare. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 11 12:24:52 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 13:24:52 -0400 Subject: govliq: Gould Concept/32 model 32/67 & Kennedy 9-track tape (Jacksonville, FL) In-Reply-To: <4A085D6D.4000803@bitsavers.org> References: <4A085D6D.4000803@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On May 11, 2009, at 1:16 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >> GOULD CHASSIS CONCEPT/ 32 SERIAL #285015, . MUTILATION NOT REQUIRED. > > I hope someone can pick this up. Gould Series 32 machines are getting > pretty rare. I would grab it in a heartbeat, but I don't think I could swing it financially right now. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From IanK at vulcan.com Mon May 11 12:35:32 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 10:35:32 -0700 Subject: govliq: Gould Concept/32 model 32/67 & Kennedy 9-track tape (Jacksonville, FL) In-Reply-To: References: <4A085D6D.4000803@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: The price itself isn't too bad right now - it's the shipping to Seattle! > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 10:25 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: govliq: Gould Concept/32 model 32/67 & Kennedy 9-track > tape (Jacksonville, FL) > > On May 11, 2009, at 1:16 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> > > >> GOULD CHASSIS CONCEPT/ 32 SERIAL #285015, . MUTILATION NOT REQUIRED. > > > > I hope someone can pick this up. Gould Series 32 machines are getting > > pretty rare. > > I would grab it in a heartbeat, but I don't think I could swing it > financially right now. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon May 11 12:37:14 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 13:37:14 -0400 Subject: List behavior (spinoff from Re: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format?) In-Reply-To: <4A0855FC.3000006@cimmeri.com> References: <01C9D1DF.76A1D7C0@MSE_D03> <4A0855FC.3000006@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <200905111337.14444.pat@computer-refuge.org> Wow, I wish I had as much time to waste complaining about pointless issues as you guys. Then I'd actually have time to work on my hobbies... Pat On Monday 11 May 2009, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > ************************ Reply: > > M H Stein wrote: > > What dumb argument? Yes, one of the points of a list like this is to > ask for and give help, but even in this day and age concepts like > "please" and "thank you" and showing appreciation instead of > complaining and taking others and their contributions for granted > still have some value. > > The OP asked for information and help about 22disk and IMD and > despite the denigrating tone of his questions the authors of both of > these programs took the time to answer his questions at length and in > detail, enabling him to resolve his issues, and apparently someone on > this list also took the time to send him the TD disks that he asked > for. > > What are his final words on the issue? Appreciation for those people > and this list which gave him access to them? > > No, now that he got what he needed from the list he tells us, "I'm > getting real, real tired of the tone on this list and will probably > take a break from any posting here. Now I'm beginning to understand > why folks like Sellam left." > > Not surprising; as I recall some people were also annoyed by Sellam's > rude and insulting attitude and language and not entirely sorry to > see *him* leave. > > If Chuck and Dave and the person who sent the disks had the same > attitude and had left the list (and, considering the crap that Dave > has had to put up with in the past I wouldn't blame him at all) then > OP would still be staring at his 820 paperweight. > > When someone suggests to OP that his negative tone and attitude might > annoy some people who might then be less eager to help him next time, > then that might be seen as an opportunity to improve those "bad > interpersonal skills" that you mention, instead of evoking a > defensive response... > > m > > --------------------------- > > Nice to know at least one person gets what I was trying to say! > > I thought that there are two CCTalk lists: CCTalk for on *and* off > topic posts, and CCTech for only on-topic posts. Therefore, I don't > get why a few people have posted or emailed me insulting and > provocative messages trying to push me around about what or what not > to read and post (eg. Gordon). I only take posting orders from list > moderators or owners. I'd been following the Xerox thread as I have > some knowledge about it, but began to have reactions to how the OP > Steven was utilizing the membership-at-large. I've only posted two > "reactions" emails -- the few others were either on-topic, jokes, or > explanation-of-jokes. > > I'm acquainted with this OP. I typically enjoy his posts in other > groups, and have helped him out before, even once by testing video > equipment he mailed to my house. So why my reactions? > > Putting aside Steve for a moment, once in awhile, I witness an OP > come along and take these mailing lists and online groups for > granted.. treating the really wonderful and astonishingly > knowledgeable and smart people of these groups as *only* "resources" > to do their bidding. There are "regulars" of this kind of behavior, > and then there are those who just occasionally forget their manners > due to excitement or having a rough time in life. > > Further, at these times, the "resources" are seemingly expected to > drop everything they're doing like they're some help desk, and > respond ASAP for whatever is needed since the OP's particular project > is of the greatest import and urgency. Lastly, after the OP has > usually managed to guilt-induce or otherwise garnish an incredible > outpouring of help from the "resources," almost without fail the OP > then expresses little to no appreciation! What??! > > Every time I witness this pattern, it amazes me. Well, I know it's > not my job to protect memberships, but dammit, if something bothers > me, I don't see why I shouldn't say something. Feedback between > humans is essential for growth, period. Here's an example: if women > had never told me how incredibly stupid I was being with them in my > 20's and early 30's, I'd have never matured. I'd still be pining > away as one girlfriend after another leaves me, without knowing why. > Luckily, a few women were brave enough to slam me with the truth. It > eventually hit home, I slowly grew up, and women stopped leaving me > as quickly or at all (unless I wanted them to.. lol). > > Back to OP Steve. His approach (on this particular topic *only*) > warranted feedback, plain and simple. He was coming across as > spoiled, impatient, humourless, and bad moody. Not in every post. > But in enough. "The real real tired of tone on list" comment was > last straw for me. A huge outpouring of help, one little comment > from me trying to encourage him to push himself a little harder, and > now the TONE of this entire list is TIRING? Well, to that implied > FU, FU too! > > My resultant comments, as Battle politely and privately pointed out > to me, perhaps should have been emailed privately. Maybe I goofed, > or maybe the feedback has more impact if it's public. Who knows. > > If an OP is going to denigrate the whole group and pack up their > toys and go home just because ONE guy gives them a smidgeon of > feedback they find unpleasant, despite the vastly greater benefits > they derived, then maybe that's just what they need to do. It's > their call whether they want to shoot themselves in the foot or not. > > Human interaction IS MESSY. It's always got good and bad, pleasant > and unpleasant, elegance and sloppiness. I say, deal with it, > listen to it, learn from it, be thankful it's there at all. > > jS -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 11 12:47:36 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 11:47:36 -0600 Subject: govliq: Gould Concept/32 model 32/67 & Kennedy 9-track tape (Jacksonville, FL) In-Reply-To: References: <4A085D6D.4000803@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4A0864B8.9010902@jetnet.ab.ca> Ian King wrote: > The price itself isn't too bad right now - it's the shipping to Seattle! I don't think that is a problem, if you really NEED IT what is shipping. I expect about $500 ground ignoring crating. Now days most people expect overnight and they don't seem to care +$50 on a $5 item if sent by mail. Ben. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 11 12:50:31 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 13:50:31 -0400 Subject: govliq: Gould Concept/32 model 32/67 & Kennedy 9-track tape (Jacksonville, FL) In-Reply-To: References: <4A085D6D.4000803@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Yeah. For me it'd be renting a truck. -Dave On May 11, 2009, at 1:35 PM, Ian King wrote: > The price itself isn't too bad right now - it's the shipping to > Seattle! > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire >> Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 10:25 AM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: govliq: Gould Concept/32 model 32/67 & Kennedy 9-track >> tape (Jacksonville, FL) >> >> On May 11, 2009, at 1:16 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >>>> >> >>>> GOULD CHASSIS CONCEPT/ 32 SERIAL #285015, . MUTILATION NOT >>>> REQUIRED. >>> >>> I hope someone can pick this up. Gould Series 32 machines are >>> getting >>> pretty rare. >> >> I would grab it in a heartbeat, but I don't think I could swing it >> financially right now. >> >> -Dave >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire >> Port Charlotte, FL >> > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon May 11 12:52:13 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 18:52:13 +0100 Subject: List behavior (spinoff from Re: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format?) In-Reply-To: <4A0855FC.3000006@cimmeri.com> References: <01C9D1DF.76A1D7C0@MSE_D03> <4A0855FC.3000006@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <1242064333.4544.0.camel@elric> On Mon, 2009-05-11 at 11:44 -0500, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > Not surprising; as I recall some people were also annoyed by Sellam's rude > and insulting attitude and language and not entirely sorry to see *him* leave. Sellam didn't post obscene messages to people off-list. Gordon From chris at mainecoon.com Mon May 11 13:00:39 2009 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 11:00:39 -0700 Subject: govliq: Gould Concept/32 model 32/67 & Kennedy 9-track tape (Jacksonville, FL) In-Reply-To: References: <4A085D6D.4000803@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4A0867C7.4080708@mainecoon.com> Ian King wrote: > The price itself isn't too bad right now - it's the shipping to Seattle! Or California, for that matter :P -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon May 11 13:08:44 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 11:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: govliq: Gould Concept/32 model 32/67 & Kennedy 9-track tape (Jacksonville, FL) In-Reply-To: <4A0867C7.4080708@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <228700.67728.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > > The price itself isn't too bad right now - > it's the shipping to Seattle! > > Or California, for that matter :P Or New York Dave should go for it. He's closest... -Ian From js at cimmeri.com Mon May 11 13:31:49 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 13:31:49 -0500 Subject: List behavior (spinoff from Re: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format?) In-Reply-To: <200905111337.14444.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <01C9D1DF.76A1D7C0@MSE_D03> <4A0855FC.3000006@cimmeri.com> <200905111337.14444.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4A086F15.2050903@cimmeri.com> It's a separate thread now so you don't have to waste time reading it. Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Wow, I wish I had as much time to waste complaining about pointless > issues as you guys. Then I'd actually have time to work on my > hobbies... > > Pat > > From js at cimmeri.com Mon May 11 13:44:04 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 13:44:04 -0500 Subject: List behavior (spinoff from Re: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format?) In-Reply-To: <1242064333.4544.0.camel@elric> References: <01C9D1DF.76A1D7C0@MSE_D03> <4A0855FC.3000006@cimmeri.com> <1242064333.4544.0.camel@elric> Message-ID: <4A0871F4.9090706@cimmeri.com> >> Not surprising; as I recall some people were also annoyed by Sellam's rude >> and insulting attitude and language and not entirely sorry to see *him* leave. >> > > Sellam didn't post obscene messages to people off-list. > > Gordon I welcome your opinions, Gordon, but unless you're a list moderator or owner, you are not entitled to rudely, insultingly, and stupidly give orders to me on or off list. Since that's what you did, on-list, you were (logically enough) rewarded with my hand-crafted, colorful, "sanctioned by Dick Chaney" language, off-list (where it belongs). From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon May 11 13:50:22 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 14:50:22 -0400 Subject: List behavior (spinoff from Re: Xerox 820 system disks =?iso-8859-1?q?in=09Teledisk?= format?) In-Reply-To: <4A086F15.2050903@cimmeri.com> References: <01C9D1DF.76A1D7C0@MSE_D03> <200905111337.14444.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4A086F15.2050903@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <200905111450.22469.pat@computer-refuge.org> Don't worry, I didn't. On Monday 11 May 2009, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > It's a separate thread now so you don't have to waste time reading > it. > > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > Wow, I wish I had as much time to waste complaining about pointless > > issues as you guys. Then I'd actually have time to work on my > > hobbies... > > > > Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 11 13:58:16 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 12:58:16 -0600 Subject: govliq: Gould Concept/32 model 32/67 & Kennedy 9-track tape (Jacksonville, FL) In-Reply-To: References: <4A085D6D.4000803@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4A087548.2010306@jetnet.ab.ca> Ian King wrote: > The price itself isn't too bad right now - it's the shipping to Seattle! When you think about it, what was the original price of the unit with shipping and the dollar adjusted for inflation.I am tired of * I can get it for a song * attitude by some. That was many years ago. I don't expect to pay ebay prices but I do know you need to shop around now days to find any kind of classic computer that does not have R at RE or L@@K on the listing. Ben. Just to leave you Sleepless in Seattle. PS. My other mailing list is B205 a great movie prop computer. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 11 14:03:43 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 13:03:43 -0600 Subject: to a good home - b205 In-Reply-To: References: <4A085D6D.4000803@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4A08768F.2080004@jetnet.ab.ca> Just looking at the b205 pages, while a bit stale a real B205 looks still to be in good shape. See URL for details. http://www.angelfire.com/scifi/B205/ecd.html Ben. From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon May 11 14:06:49 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt Vendel - Atarimuseum) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 15:06:49 -0400 Subject: Taking offers - Vax 11/750 available... In-Reply-To: <4A006D13.1090507@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <693F2D4E6715@dunfield.com> <20090504162309.R44203@shell.lmi.net> <4A0067A9.4000509@cimmeri.com> <4A006D13.1090507@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4A087749.9030909@atarimuseum.com> I am regrettably selling my Vax 11/750. It comes with several DEC Admin manuals, large sets service schematics and a large crate of spare Unibus boards. One of the P/S modules is missing, everything else is intact, also includes a box of bootloader tapes too. I am not piecing it out, please do not ask, its all or nothing. Email me if interested, I can supply photo's for those interested. Buyer must arrange for all pickup and moving arrangements, I cannot do much more then roll the cabinet over to the garage door for pickup, I am recovering from 3 heart surgeries over the last 11 months and I am just not up to working on restoring this machine any further and I cannot lift anything above 20lbs due to having to have my chest plate sawed open 3 times, so I've got a long road to healing and right now, this beastie is just collecting dust and taking up a lot of space. I am in Putnam, New York 10512 Curt From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon May 11 14:08:25 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 20:08:25 +0100 Subject: List behavior (spinoff from Re: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format?) In-Reply-To: <4A0871F4.9090706@cimmeri.com> References: <01C9D1DF.76A1D7C0@MSE_D03> <4A0855FC.3000006@cimmeri.com> <1242064333.4544.0.camel@elric> <4A0871F4.9090706@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <1242068905.6174.0.camel@elric> On Mon, 2009-05-11 at 13:44 -0500, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > >> Not surprising; as I recall some people were also annoyed by Sellam's rude > >> and insulting attitude and language and not entirely sorry to see *him* leave. > >> > > > > Sellam didn't post obscene messages to people off-list. > > > > Gordon > I welcome your opinions, Gordon, but unless you're a list moderator or > owner, you are not entitled to rudely, insultingly, and stupidly give > orders to me on or off list. Since that's what you did, on-list, you > were (logically enough) rewarded with my hand-crafted, colorful, > "sanctioned by Dick Chaney" language, off-list (where it belongs). I'm somewhat surprised you think it's acceptable to respond to acerbic humour with obscene language. Kids these days... Gordon From js at cimmeri.com Mon May 11 14:29:46 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 14:29:46 -0500 Subject: List behavior (spinoff from Re: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format?) In-Reply-To: <1242068905.6174.0.camel@elric> References: <01C9D1DF.76A1D7C0@MSE_D03> <4A0855FC.3000006@cimmeri.com> <1242064333.4544.0.camel@elric> <4A0871F4.9090706@cimmeri.com> <1242068905.6174.0.camel@elric> Message-ID: <4A087CAA.9070303@cimmeri.com> >> I welcome your opinions, Gordon, but unless you're a list moderator or >> owner, you are not entitled to rudely, insultingly, and stupidly give >> orders to me on or off list. Since that's what you did, on-list, you >> were (logically enough) rewarded with my hand-crafted, colorful, >> "sanctioned by Dick Chaney" language, off-list (where it belongs). >> > I'm somewhat surprised you think it's acceptable to respond to acerbic > humour with obscene language. > > Kids these days... > > Gordon Yep. I'm still a kid. Plus I'm a kid with Lyme disease... which very unfortunately leads to fits of "Lyme rage" with very little provocation. A characteristic of "Lyme rage" is an epithetically loose tongue. But hey, if it's good enough for Dick Chaney, it ought to be good enough for anyone! ;-) jS From ploopster at gmail.com Mon May 11 14:36:33 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 15:36:33 -0400 Subject: List behavior (spinoff from Re: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format?) In-Reply-To: <4A087CAA.9070303@cimmeri.com> References: <01C9D1DF.76A1D7C0@MSE_D03> <4A0855FC.3000006@cimmeri.com> <1242064333.4544.0.camel@elric> <4A0871F4.9090706@cimmeri.com> <1242068905.6174.0.camel@elric> <4A087CAA.9070303@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <4A087E41.8090707@gmail.com> js at cimmeri.com wrote: > >>> I welcome your opinions, Gordon, but unless you're a list moderator >>> or owner, you are not entitled to rudely, insultingly, and stupidly >>> give orders to me on or off list. Since that's what you did, >>> on-list, you were (logically enough) rewarded with my hand-crafted, >>> colorful, "sanctioned by Dick Chaney" language, off-list (where it >>> belongs). >>> >> I'm somewhat surprised you think it's acceptable to respond to acerbic >> humour with obscene language. >> >> Kids these days... >> >> Gordon > Yep. I'm still a kid. Plus I'm a kid with Lyme disease... which very > unfortunately leads to fits of "Lyme rage" with very little provocation. > A characteristic of "Lyme rage" is an epithetically loose tongue. But > hey, if it's good enough for Dick Chaney, it ought to be good enough for > anyone! ;-) *plonk* Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 11 14:53:20 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 15:53:20 -0400 Subject: govliq: Gould Concept/32 model 32/67 & Kennedy 9-track tape (Jacksonville, FL) In-Reply-To: <228700.67728.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <228700.67728.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7A10F024-5D22-475A-B1F8-59DF8CF3DFF0@neurotica.com> On May 11, 2009, at 2:08 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >>> The price itself isn't too bad right now - >> it's the shipping to Seattle! >> >> Or California, for that matter :P > > Or New York > > Dave should go for it. He's closest... I really can't afford the trip expenses right now. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 11 14:50:43 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 19:50:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Classic A/V equipment Message-ID: <699263.20749.qm@web23408.mail.ird.yahoo.com> See a reply from Tore below regarding the video link he provided recently. You need VLC (available here: http://www.videolan.org/ ) or other compatible software to view the video (and audio). The current version 0.9.9 for Windows works pretty well (I love setting the speed to 1.9x for chipmunk speech!), though there is a slight bug with the time display on Windows 2K SP4 (it displays total time correctly, but time played/left is invalid!) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Mon, 11/5/09, Tore Sinding Bekkedal wrote: From: Tore Sinding Bekkedal Subject: Re: Classic A/V equipment To: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Date: Monday, 11 May, 2009, 3:01 PM Andrew Burton wrote: > > * off-list reply * > > > Actually, unless you have fixed it, there is no video in the file: > > http://gunkies.org/stuff/vax11-782.mpg > I tried viewing it with Windows Media Player and RealPlayer but only get audio. I know atleast one other list member also has the same problem as me. > Has the codec been set up correctly?? Have you actually seen the video, and if you have what did you use? > I suggest a more sane media player - VLC, for example. -Tore :) From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 11 15:04:31 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 13:04:31 -0700 Subject: to a good home - b205 In-Reply-To: <4A08768F.2080004@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4A085D6D.4000803@bitsavers.org> <4A08768F.2080004@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4A0884CF.9010803@bitsavers.org> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Just looking at the b205 pages, while a bit stale > a real B205 looks still to be in good shape. See URL for details. > http://www.angelfire.com/scifi/B205/ecd.html > Ben. > Isn't this the system that went to the Boseman museum? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 11 15:54:01 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 14:54:01 -0600 Subject: to a good home - b205 In-Reply-To: <4A0884CF.9010803@bitsavers.org> References: <4A085D6D.4000803@bitsavers.org> <4A08768F.2080004@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A0884CF.9010803@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4A089069.8030504@jetnet.ab.ca> Al Kossow wrote: > bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> Just looking at the b205 pages, while a bit stale >> a real B205 looks still to be in good shape. See URL for details. >> http://www.angelfire.com/scifi/B205/ecd.html >> Ben. >> > > Isn't this the system that went to the Boseman museum? Could always email to find out... From past history ... send to a museum *item is scrapped since is not authentic enough* . From alhartman at yahoo.com Mon May 11 16:01:15 2009 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 14:01:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wanted: Corvus Z80 "Universal" Transporter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <967780.89484.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> I used to work for a Corvus Distributor in Brooklyn, NY in the 1980's and never heard of this item. If you find one, I hope you post details on this list as I'd be interested to learn more about it. Al ---------- Steven Hirsch Wrote: I'm still looking for one of the above. This was a daughterboard designed to sandwich between a Z80 and its socket. It carried the Corvus proprietary chipset and permitted any CP/M machine to become a client on their Omninet network. If anyone even knows who has one, I'd appreciate a lead. In a pinch, given good photos I can likely reverse engineer the PCB and build my own (have a slew of Apple 2 transporters to harvest the chips from). The device is mentioned in one of the Appendices to DRI's CP/NET technical docs, FWIW. Steve From legalize at xmission.com Mon May 11 16:23:55 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 15:23:55 -0600 Subject: Scored an SGI 4D/480 VGX Message-ID: I was surprised noone else bid on it. The skins look in good condition. This is the biggest model of the 4D series ever made. Yummy :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon May 11 16:37:50 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 15:37:50 -0600 Subject: govliq: Gould Concept/32 model 32/67 & Kennedy 9-track tape (Jacksonville, FL) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 11 May 2009 10:35:32 -0700. Message-ID: In article , Ian King writes: > The price itself isn't too bad right now - it's the shipping to Seattle! Try 1600 lbs of Evans & Sutherland image generator in two cabinets, that'll put a dent in your wallet! For freight shipping, I look at it this way... What would it take in your time and expenses to go to where the item is located, load it on a truck and drive it home? Most of the time, its cheaper to have a service (even Craters & Freighters which isn't the cheapest service as they focus on quality of service not price) handle the details than it is to do it myself. The only time I took the trip myself was when I had a friend that was willing to help me load and it was literally a penske truckload of stuff that was coming back (4 rack SGI reality monster, Challenge XL, Onyx XL, deskside Crimson, box of spaceballs). Even then it only just about broke even with what it would cost a service, when you consider time off from work, food, gas, hotels, truck rental, etc. For all the other monster stuff I've accumulated, its been worth it to have a service handle the details. Currently the rates for pickup+packing+freight amount to about $1-$1.50/lb of freight, depending on distance travelled. I have pretty much gotten used to having to ship things because there just isn't anything locally vintage-wise. This ain't Silicon Valley and there are no big government installations around (LLL, LBL, LANL, INL, NASA, etc.). The universities here seem pretty good on turning over their old computer stock fairly quickly, so there aren't a lot of holdouts laying about in property surplus. The collectors of arcade games and classic cars face pretty much the same issues. Yeah, shipping wouldn't be an issue if I collected C=64s, but where's the fun in that? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 11 16:39:15 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 14:39:15 -0700 Subject: to a good home - b205 In-Reply-To: <4A089069.8030504@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4A085D6D.4000803@bitsavers.org> <4A08768F.2080004@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A0884CF.9010803@bitsavers.org> <4A089069.8030504@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4A089B03.1050400@bitsavers.org> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > > From past history ... send to a museum *item is scrapped since is > not authentic enough* . > > Is this the month for pointless insults? http://tjsawyer.com/B205Home.htm has a picture of the American Computer Museum system. There are other threads, which I don't feel like digging for further that I remember linking the B205 previously mentioned to the Boseman museum. From IanK at vulcan.com Mon May 11 17:23:22 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 15:23:22 -0700 Subject: govliq: Gould Concept/32 model 32/67 & Kennedy 9-track tape (Jacksonville, FL) In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Mon, 11 May 2009 10:35:32 -0700. Message-ID: Been there, done that - I didn't get my VAX 6660 through the US Mail. :-) More than anything, it amuses me that the shipping of a vintage system or component can be the bulk of its total purchase price. I once purchased a Digidata 9-track drive for $20 - it was $100 to build a shipping crate for it! It arrived all in one piece, and the crate was so nice I put wheels on it and use it as a rollaround workbench. Then there was the time I purchased a machine from Guy Sotomayor. He suggested that, rather than shipping the machine, we meet halfway - in Eugene, Oregon - and handle the deal. It probably ended up costing me about the same as shipping (driving my Mercedes 450SL at 15 mpg), but it was a lot more fun to meet face-to-face and chat over breakfast. Besides, I knew that both parties to the 'shipping' would treat the machine with due care! (Guy had built a really nice shipping crate. Unfortunately, it wouldn't fit in the trunk of my car. So we had to uncrate the machine in the parking lot....) You're right, it's rarely worth taking a 'road trip' these days, and the better shipping companies offer a good deal. However, the recent decline in the market took a big bite out of my discretionary funds, so my personal purchasing has been somewhat constrained as of late. And I agree about the C64s. :-) -- Ian > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard > Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 2:38 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: govliq: Gould Concept/32 model 32/67 & Kennedy 9-track > tape (Jacksonville, FL) > > > In article , > Ian King writes: > > > The price itself isn't too bad right now - it's the shipping to > Seattle! > > Try 1600 lbs of Evans & Sutherland image generator in two cabinets, > that'll > put a dent in your wallet! > > For freight shipping, I look at it this way... > > What would it take in your time and expenses to go to where the item > is located, load it on a truck and drive it home? Most of the time, > its cheaper to have a service (even Craters & Freighters which isn't > the cheapest service as they focus on quality of service not price) > handle the details than it is to do it myself. The only time I took > the trip myself was when I had a friend that was willing to help me > load and it was literally a penske truckload of stuff that was coming > back (4 rack SGI reality monster, Challenge XL, Onyx XL, deskside > Crimson, box of spaceballs). Even then it only just about broke even > with what it would cost a service, when you consider time off from > work, food, gas, hotels, truck rental, etc. > > For all the other monster stuff I've accumulated, its been worth it to > have a service handle the details. > > Currently the rates for pickup+packing+freight amount to about > $1-$1.50/lb of freight, depending on distance travelled. I have > pretty much gotten used to having to ship things because there just > isn't anything locally vintage-wise. This ain't Silicon Valley and > there are no big government installations around (LLL, LBL, LANL, INL, > NASA, etc.). The universities here seem pretty good on turning over > their old computer stock fairly quickly, so there aren't a lot of > holdouts laying about in property surplus. > > The collectors of arcade games and classic cars face pretty much the > same issues. > > Yeah, shipping wouldn't be an issue if I collected C=64s, but where's > the fun in that? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for > download > > > Legalize Adulthood! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 11 17:28:21 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 16:28:21 -0600 Subject: to a good home - b205 In-Reply-To: <4A089B03.1050400@bitsavers.org> References: <4A085D6D.4000803@bitsavers.org> <4A08768F.2080004@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A0884CF.9010803@bitsavers.org> <4A089069.8030504@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A089B03.1050400@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4A08A685.6050609@jetnet.ab.ca> Al Kossow wrote: > There are other threads, which I don't feel like digging for further > that I remember linking the B205 previously mentioned to the Boseman > museum. Well now I know where that went. It is that " *pick up today* or it will go to the scrappers tomorow " that made me think about my post earlier today, Ben. From ken at seefried.com Mon May 11 17:55:27 2009 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 18:55:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: govliq: Gould Concept/32 model 32/67 & Kennedy 9-track Message-ID: <20090511225527.74F733800072B@portal.seefried.com> From: Al Kossow > I hope someone can pick this up. Gould Series 32 machines are getting > pretty rare. I should have paid better attention. I'll be in Jax tomorrow morning and decided not to bring the truck. What software is still around for a Concept/32? KJ From dm561 at torfree.net Mon May 11 19:26:36 2009 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 20:26:36 -0400 Subject: List behavior (spinoff from Re: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format?) Message-ID: <01C9D276.CA88B2E0@MSE_D03> -------------Original Message: Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 13:37:14 -0400 From: Patrick Finnegan Subject: Re: List behavior (spinoff from Re: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format?) Wow, I wish I had as much time to waste complaining about pointless issues as you guys. Then I'd actually have time to work on my hobbies... Pat --------------Reply: LOL! Good one! Considering that *you*'re the one that wasted your time writing the original *complaint* that I replied to, why *don't* you in fact just work on your hobbies instead of wasting even more of your valuable time with rude and pointless notes like that one and blaming me/us for it? What *is* it about the suggestion that a little politeness and appreciation might be a good idea when asking for help that bothers you enough to take the time to object? I don't care if the OP is offended and leaves the list, or if his attitude causes some folks to make a mental note to not lift a finger to help him next time; that's his choice. The *point* is that enough criticism and lack of appreciation etc. might prompt folks like Dave to leave the list or stop sharing his contributions with us; that concerns me, even if OP doesn't care now that his problem has been solved. I know that Dave at least has already asked himself a few times why the hell he bothered, especially with IMD... m From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon May 11 19:53:06 2009 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 20:53:06 -0400 Subject: non-DEC-compat HW to read RX02's? In-Reply-To: <20090509123226.11CB1BA514F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20090509123226.11CB1BA514F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4A08C872.80803@compsys.to> >Tim Shoppa wrote: >What non-DEC-compatible stuff out there can read RX02's? > >Obviously the original RX02 drive can read RX02's... as can all the >DSD, Sigma, etc. Q-bus, Unibus, Omnibus compatible controllers. > > I still have a Sigma box (that is about 2/3 the size of a BA23) with a built in 8" floppy. It also has a built in hard drive of a size I can't remember, probably about 10 MB and is able to run RT-11 quite nicely. Since there is a Qbus backplane, it should be possible to add a SCSI host adapter to allow copies of any RX02 floppies to be made to a SCSI hard drive. I realize that this is still much larger than an SA801 drive and a PC laptop, but much better than a BA23 and RX02 or DSD 440. >But what can read RX02's using a generic SA801-type drive and a PC-clone? > > As a previous reply mentioned, a Catweasel controller may be able to read the RX02 format. Since I still have a DSD 880/30 available and maybe even a DEC RX02, that is not a problem for me. Although I can't remember wanting to read an 8" floppy for about 10 years. Now reading a real TU-58 tape using a real DEC TU-58 drive, that I have done only a few months ago. Jerome Fine From lynchaj at yahoo.com Mon May 11 21:26:17 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 22:26:17 -0400 Subject: 8 bit SBC with floppy controller for disk archiving [was Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format] Message-ID: On 10 May 2009 at 23:21, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi! I sent this message earlier but it seems to have gotten drowned > in all the unpleasantness. Hopefully we can move on to something more > constructive. If anyone would like to discuss disk archiving legacy > formats with an existing low cost home brew Z80 CP/M SBC and Disk IO > board I think the N8VEM project would make a great starting point. > > It does everything described by Jules and is common enough now to have > a decent support base. There are at least one hundred N8VEM SBC > owners so that might be helpful in using it to archive disks. It uses > a standard Intel 8272/NEC 765A FDC with some extensions for use with > formats other than the usual 5.25"/3.5" DSDD/DSHD. Especially when > paired with an IDE CF adapter I think it would be a very useful tool. By "extensions" what do you mean, Andrew? Will it archive Victor 9000 diskettes? --Chuck -----REPLY----- Hi Chuck! Thanks! By extensions, I mean the Disk IO has a regular Shugart mini-disk interface with all the usual signals and options. It also has the "feature" interface which imports/exports the rest of the NEC765/i8272 signals necessary for 8" and other drive support. An 8" drive cable with what signals are needed for that drive could be fabricated using the Shugart mini-disk interface plus whatever signals/options are needed from the feature connector. The 8" drive cable would be custom to Disk IO and that drive but there are multiple 8" drive interfaces so that seemed to me to be the most flexible way to provide support in a limited PCB space format. Please check out the Disk IO schematic on the N8VEM wiki for illustration of what I mean. http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=Disk%2520IO The Disk IO also brings to the feature connector intermediate signals for external processing like RAWREAD, /INDEX, the decoded FM/MFM stream from the FDC9229, etc. It also has VCC and GND for easy extension into "smart cables" to allow external processing of the intermediate signals. A uC or PC interface could tap off the RAWREAD and /INDEX signals and decode the disk directly or use the FDC9229 data separator to decode FM/MFM data. I think hard sector disks could be supported using this technique and even more exotic formats such as M2FM, etc. I don't know if the N8VEM SBC + Disk IO board could decode a Victor 9000 disk as I don't know anything about the format. However, with the Shugart mini-disk interface and the feature connector by themselves it may be possible. It's very likely (IMO) by using the intermediate signals fed to an external uC or PC for high speed sampling/decoding using the Z80/i8272 as a mode controller. I am not suggesting the plain 4MHz or 8MHz Z80 has enough bandwidth to decode raw read disk flux transitions like a Catweasel does. What I am suggesting is if someone were interested in pursuing such a serial port based floppy disk archiving project is to use the N8VEM SBC and Disk IO as a starting point since much of the work has already been done. Starting over from scratch would add a lot of unnecessary work and probably some marginal benefit when done, if it lasts that long. Using the N8VEM SBC and Disk IO board the project could launch in days or weeks rather than months with a "clean sheet" design. If the really exotic stuff were desired which required a uC or PC interface that could still leverage the existing N8VEM design as infrastructure and focus on just the disk sampler/decoder using signals and power supplied from the Disk IO board. I hope this helps! Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From lynchaj at yahoo.com Mon May 11 21:26:17 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 22:26:17 -0400 Subject: 8 bit SBC with floppy controller for disk archiving [was Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format] Message-ID: <1242B4F486B0499B9B245F1099CE66E2@andrewdesktop> Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi! I sent this message earlier but it seems to have gotten drowned in all > the unpleasantness. Sometimes, this list is weird. > Hopefully we can move on to something more > constructive. If anyone would like to discuss disk archiving legacy formats> with an existing low cost home brew Z80 CP/M SBC and Disk IO board I think > the N8VEM project would make a great starting point. I was wondering about it too, and waiting for you to come up ;-) Anyway, I hope you don't mind if I post the links to two pictures which hopefully show how it could work: a.) the cpu board http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/f/IMG_5762.jpg b.) the fdc http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/f/IMG_8632.JPG So, if you use a right angled power-connector on the cpu, you could probably just stack those two board on top of each other, without the need of the bus backplane. My thoughts to all of this: 1.) I don't care about the sd-flash, Not sure if it really helps. After all, we still talk about floppies, so a decent V24 should be good enough to send /receive data from a floppy. 2.) The board is missing the 8" floppy connector, which is bad. Would make it easier to get the people playing with it. I know, you can wire it up easily, but you probably like to get the software people on board too ? ;-) Cheers STANDARD DISCLAIMER : (SORRY, I'M NOT INVOLVED IN THIS PROJECT AT ALL, BUT I'M WATCHING IT FOR A WHILE. LIKED TO PLAY WITH CP/M AND Z80 BEFORE) -----REPLY----- Hi! Some N8VEM builders have skipped the ECB backplane connectors and just direct connected the boards together as you suggest. That certainly is possible. Alternatively you could make a small ECB bus using IDC DIN 41612 connectors and 64 conductor ribbon cable. Some N8VEM builders have done that too. Although the Disk IO board does not have an explicit 8" connector all the signals are present for one. The Disk IO has a Shugart mini-disk interface 5.25"/3.5" and with the "feature" connector it has all the signals necessary. The builder can make a special cable for 8" drives if they are needed. There are different kinds of 8" drive interfaces with different signal requirements. They can be selected as options to make the signals present or not for the drives. In addition, the feature connector has signals normally buried in the FDC such as RAWREAD, /INDEX, and the MFM/FM decoded data stream straight from the FDC9229 data separator chip. These signals could be fed to an external uC or PC for direct sampling or processing similar to how a Catweasel works. The SBC and Disk IO would still be in the loop as a controller if not doing direct reads. Right now most of the software for the Disk IO board is focused on the IDE section. That supports quite a number of devices including CF adapters and regular IDE hard drives, ATAPI devices and the like. I have some very crude floppy drive "disk monitor" software available but that is as far as I got with it. I was able to read and write sectors, format tracks, move the heads, manipulate the i8272 registers and latch, etc all the things necessary for writing a CP/M CBIOS or disk utility. Some of the N8VEM builders are taking what I've done and are extending it but as you can imagine the floppy drive CBIOS is the most complex part. The software source code is available and open source as is all the hardware and software design information. Everything is publically available on wiki and mailing list. Some builders have proposed that the Disk 1A CBIOS could be modified to support this controller since they are somewhat similar. They are not exact though so it would be some work to make it happen. Even though the N8VEM SBC + Disk IO board is an incomplete solution it does have all the basic pieces necessary for this project. The PCBs and parts all exist and are obtainable fairly easily. There is quite a bit of software already in existence such as updated ROMs, CP/M archives, development tools, etc. However, the application software does not exist and would need to be written to make this practical. Obviously I am biased towards the N8VEM project as it is my own home brew system released in to the world. I think it could do this job if there were interested builders. I am now working on other projects such as completing the N8VEM 6809 host processor, the S-100 backplane, S-100 prototype board, the XT-IDE controller, and some other side projects. I hope this helps! Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch PS, you are welcome to join us on the mailing list and wiki regardless of this project. Feel free to stop by and join up! From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon May 11 21:34:03 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 19:34:03 -0700 Subject: Casio AI-1000 info... In-Reply-To: <9653B977-1CEC-4DF4-851C-A6C8632297CF@neurotica.com> References: <4A03A48A.1060109@mail.msu.edu> <9653B977-1CEC-4DF4-851C-A6C8632297CF@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A08E01B.1020601@mail.msu.edu> Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 7, 2009, at 11:18 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> Does anyone have any detailed information on the Casio AI-1000? This >> is (was) a pocket-sized computer in the vein of those old BASIC >> handhelds, except it's programmable in Lisp, of all things... I'm >> interested in what it's capable of, it just looks like a neat little >> device but there's not a lot of detail out there other than basic >> hardware specs. > > Really...? I've never heard of this. It sounds like a WHOLE lot of > fun! Please share any information that you may find. > >> And of course if anyone has one they're just gonna throw away, drop >> me a line :). > > > Me too! > If anyone's interested, I stumbled on an AI-1000 emulator at: http://www.pisi.com.pl/piotr433/pb2000ee.htm (Windows only...) There's a lot of cool info about old Casio programmables on that site. Fun to play around with. Still no documentation, though. Still not as fun as the real thing, either :). Josh From legalize at xmission.com Mon May 11 21:53:14 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 20:53:14 -0600 Subject: govliq: Gould Concept/32 model 32/67 & Kennedy 9-track tape (Jacksonville, FL) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 11 May 2009 15:23:22 -0700. Message-ID: In article , Ian King writes: > You're right, it's rarely worth taking a 'road trip' these days, > and the better shipping companies offer a good deal. I take the road trip when its a drive I feel like making. I drove to Carson City, NV to get my PDP-11/03 with dual RL01s and LA-120. It involved a UHaul trailer rental and trailer hitch installation on my car. It was interesting getting the stuff out of the storage location and into the trailer. I had underestimated the weight of the 11/03's cabinet and the disk drives. I think there's a 75 lb. counterbalancing weight in the base of that thing! I've also driven down to Tucson, AZ twice (about 12 hr. drive) to get SGI gear from a member of this list. I've also driven to Boise, ID for an HP2648A graphics terminal (about 5 hr. drive). That was an interesting return drive because it was dark as I hit the little mountain range between Idaho and Utah and given the time of year, there was one last winter storm in the making. There were some seriously challenging driving conditions on the road through through those hills -- fortunately I didn't have any sort of trailer or van to deal with, but it was pretty hairy in a few spots. > And I agree about the C64s. :-) -- Ian=20 Not to knock C=64s at all, they are nice little 6502 graphics and sound machines. But they are definately a commodity item made in the millions of units, not something like a Gould. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dave09 at dunfield.com Mon May 11 22:50:34 2009 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 22:50:34 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format? In-Reply-To: <4A054104.28331.7E9DAB6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <80A38F9D653B@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <8E80E3C93D2F@dunfield.com> > On 9 May 2009 at 6:13, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > > ImageDisk is NOT a CP/M emulator like 22disk - it knows (or cares) > > nothing about high level disk formats (file systems). Although it has > > a F)ormat command, it's is a LOW-LEVEL format only and does not create > > a recognisable file system. It is mainly for testing and the creation > > of custom disks. > > Beg pardon, Dave. 22Disk doesn't emulate anything. It converts (and > can format), but doesn't emulate. That's 22Nice's job. Bad choice of words (given 22nice) - I was referring to it's ability to read/write CP/M diskettes... > For that matter, if all one wanted to do was to create an arbitrary > blank disk with different formatting on each track, Anadiisk's often- > overlooked format feature can do some pretty bizarre stuff. -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dave09 at dunfield.com Mon May 11 22:50:34 2009 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 22:50:34 -0500 Subject: List behavior (spinoff from Re: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format?) In-Reply-To: <01C9D276.CA88B2E0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <8E80E33D75CD@dunfield.com> > The *point* is that enough criticism and lack of appreciation etc. might prompt > folks like Dave to leave the list or stop sharing his contributions with us; that > concerns me, even if OP doesn't care now that his problem has been solved. > I know that Dave at least has already asked himself a few times why the hell > he bothered, especially with IMD... While there were a couple such times in the past, this was not my impression or intention this time - I recent years I generally keep a low profile, pop in when I have something meaningful to say and shut-up otherwise, and for the most part this strategy seems to work - I've not had any problems or issues with/from the list in quite some time (and I don't consider this recent incident a problem... (at least not for me). I do regret that my response to the original posting has stirred up such a can of worms - that was not my intention. My intent was to actually answer his question, and "lightly" chide him for the tone of the message which to me read as a complaint where I didn't feel one was warrented. I also reminded him that the program was free (so whatdya want?), and that resources had been made available to allow him to put some of his own effort into making it better suit his requirements. I didn't (and still don't) feel that that response was particularily out of line - although I do recognize that not everyone appreciates my somewhat off-beat sense of humor. But somehow it seems to have turned into something that sounds remarkably like a group of children squabbling in a playground. PLEASE put thus to rest ... anyone who has nothing better to do might want to consider going back to "contemplating your navel" (still chuckling at that one Al) - it really would be a more productive use of your time. As to "why the hell I bothered" - the answer is simple: ImageDisk is a tool I wrote to accomplish a task and it's very useful to me - I guess I'm "a bit different" that way, but I've written most of the software that I use - I have the same editor running under every operating system I work on (very handy), my own languages, compilers, interpreters, assemblers, debuggers and the like, Almost all the utilities I use were written by yours truly, and I have many other tools and programs to accomplish various things ... ImageDisk is just another tool, and I would have written it even if nobody else were interested in it - it allows me to backup and organize a fair percentage of the media in my classic computer collection. In other words - above all else, I wrote it for myself. Having said that, I am very pleased that others find it useful, and that it has contributed to the preservation of media beyond the scope of my own collection. It has grown beyond what I originally envisioned and that has been a good thing. There was a time when "bad vibes" did lead me to question the wisdom of having made it freely available, however I've seen so much good come from it since than that I no longer have any such doubts. Dave -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 11 22:12:32 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 20:12:32 -0700 Subject: 8 bit SBC with floppy controller for disk archiving [was Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A0886B0.13655.14B2290A@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 May 2009 at 22:26, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi Chuck! Thanks! By extensions, I mean the Disk IO has a regular > Shugart mini-disk interface with all the usual signals and options. > It also has the "feature" interface which imports/exports the rest of > the NEC765/i8272 signals necessary for 8" and other drive support. An > 8" drive cable with what signals are needed for that drive could be > fabricated using the Shugart mini-disk interface plus whatever > signals/options are needed from the feature connector. The 8" drive > cable would be custom to Disk IO and that drive but there are multiple > 8" drive interfaces so that seemed to me to be the most flexible way > to provide support in a limited PCB space format. Hi Andrew, Good work! I did check out your schematic (I think)--FDC_A.jpg and FDC_B.jpg and I don't see the "special feature" connector anywhere. Here are my comments on what I see, they're only speculation and opinion, so please don't take them for anything more than that. I'm certain that you had good reasons for doing what you did the way you did it! One of the problems with using a 4MHz Z80 on a raw data stream is that the Z80A isn't fast enough to handle it. While a uC might do that, the simplest seems to be the Catweasel's use of a 128K time- domain memory. Leave it to the host processor to crunch the data later. One could well more easily hook up a uC to the raw disk interface, don't you think? How does one derive the RWC/TG43 signal that some 8" drives require? If there's an 8" connector, why is HDL not brought to it? One thing that I'm not certain of is the use of the US0 and US1 pins for select. The PC uses a separate register for select and leaves US0 and US1 NC. I suspect that this bears on some aspect of 5.25" operation and the 765's polling mode, but I'm not certain. Would it be better to multiplex the READY signal to a set of jumpers that allows one to select either the drive's own ready (all 8" drives and most 5.25" have this) or a tied-high READY? FWIW, the Victor 9000 disk format is variable datarate (or CLV, depending on how you want to look at it). Best regards as always, Chuck From useddec at gmail.com Mon May 11 22:15:00 2009 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 22:15:00 -0500 Subject: Available PDP-11/35 In-Reply-To: <4A082F6E.1040008@dunnington.plus.com> References: <45707.212.67.167.228.1242029115.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4A082F6E.1040008@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <624966d60905112015v55a89f1l53b579688723b8c0@mail.gmail.com> Looks like a BA11-k box. On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 9:00 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 11/05/2009 11:20, Christian Corti wrote: > >> On Mon, 11 May 2009, Ed Groenenberg wrote: >> >>> Forgot to tell that the machine is not for free, make an offer off-list. >>> >> >> ... and that the 11/35 (like a 11/40) shouldn't be in a BA23 box. I wonder >> how you fit the frontpanel to a BA23. >> > > I wondered that too... > > On 11/05/2009 11:37, tiggerlasv at aim.com wrote: > > > > I think he may have meant "PDP-11/53" . . . assuming it is in a BA23 > > chassis. . . > > ...so I looked at the pictures -- no, it's just a typo. It's in the usual > small BA11. > > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon May 11 22:42:10 2009 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 22:42:10 -0500 Subject: pdp 11/23 to PC conversion wanted, then hardware is available Message-ID: <02f201c9d2b3$a18114e0$c900a8c0@JWEST> Got the following email, if interested in the conversion work please contact me off-list. He who does the conversion can collect and do whatever they wish with the hardware: ------------------------------ Hi I have a working DEC 11/23. it is actually a Marquette 8000 Holter system http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=458 The monitor is fading and the computer is a relic and takes up a lot of space However, it s a very good Holter system since there are c programs on it that are very good for research. I would like to transfer the entire system to a PC. and would gladly give you guys the hardware, but I would need to first transfer the functionality to a new PC. I read in url above that the terminal may be special and there may be special board in the computer I am a developer but I am not a hardware tech. Any suggestions? From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon May 11 22:49:07 2009 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 22:49:07 -0500 Subject: list server Message-ID: <030801c9d2b4$9a1edd30$c900a8c0@JWEST> btw - just a few days ago I noticed there was a speed/duplex type mismatch on the classiccmp server. It had no transmit or receive errors, but was sporadically send/receiving very slow. That has been corrected and it flies now :) Jay From legalize at xmission.com Mon May 11 22:54:34 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 21:54:34 -0600 Subject: Intergraph clipper docs? Message-ID: Anyone got some? I've got 4 Intergraph Clipper RISC based workstations, but no docs. Wikipedia says that the systems used CLIX, a Un*x SysV variant. I'm looking for user manuals, hardware manuals, OS manuals, etc. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon May 11 23:09:58 2009 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 23:09:58 -0500 Subject: List behavior (spinoff from Re: Xerox 820 system disks in Telediskformat?) References: <01C9D1DF.76A1D7C0@MSE_D03> <4A0855FC.3000006@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <043301c9d2b7$84129bf0$c900a8c0@JWEST> I find myself searching for the worm can lid. From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon May 11 23:11:11 2009 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 23:11:11 -0500 Subject: List behavior (spinoff from Re: Xerox 820 system disks inTeledisk format?) References: <01C9D1DF.76A1D7C0@MSE_D03> <4A0855FC.3000006@cimmeri.com> <1242064333.4544.0.camel@elric> Message-ID: <044e01c9d2b7$af3d5450$c900a8c0@JWEST> Gordon wrote... > Sellam didn't post obscene messages to people off-list. *COUGH* From ploopster at gmail.com Mon May 11 23:11:50 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 00:11:50 -0400 Subject: list server In-Reply-To: <030801c9d2b4$9a1edd30$c900a8c0@JWEST> References: <030801c9d2b4$9a1edd30$c900a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <4A08F706.3030404@gmail.com> Jay West wrote: > btw - just a few days ago I noticed there was a speed/duplex type > mismatch on the classiccmp server. It had no transmit or receive errors, > but was sporadically send/receiving very slow. That has been corrected > and it flies now :) BTDT. I feel your pain. Peace... Sridhar From spectre at floodgap.com Mon May 11 23:35:52 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 21:35:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: govliq: Gould Concept/32 model 32/67 & Kennedy 9-track tape (Jacksonville, FL) In-Reply-To: from Richard at "May 11, 9 08:53:14 pm" Message-ID: <200905120435.n4C4ZqQc011810@floodgap.com> > Not to knock C=64s at all, they are nice little 6502 graphics and > sound machines. But they are definately a commodity item made in the > millions of units, not something like a Gould. Even as a Commodore aficionado, I'd agree. I have them coming out my ears these days. One day C64s will be rare as hen's teeth, but I'll probably be dead by then. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "Die Another Day" ---------------------------------- From cmthielen at ucdavis.edu Mon May 11 11:32:35 2009 From: cmthielen at ucdavis.edu (Chris Thielen) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 09:32:35 -0700 Subject: FREE: QIC-40/-80 Internal Tape Drive Message-ID: <4B9E7597-ACA6-4F97-A8C3-197AD4C6590D@ucdavis.edu> Lee Courtney, Is your QIC-40 internal tape drive still available? I have need for one here at UC Davis. Thanks -- Chris Thielen Systems Administrator History Department University of California Davis (530) 752-6043 From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue May 12 04:46:07 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 10:46:07 +0100 Subject: List behavior (spinoff from Re: Xerox 820 system disks inTeledisk format?) In-Reply-To: <044e01c9d2b7$af3d5450$c900a8c0@JWEST> References: <01C9D1DF.76A1D7C0@MSE_D03> <4A0855FC.3000006@cimmeri.com> <1242064333.4544.0.camel@elric> <044e01c9d2b7$af3d5450$c900a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <1242121567.6174.5.camel@elric> On Mon, 2009-05-11 at 23:11 -0500, Jay West wrote: > Gordon wrote... > > Sellam didn't post obscene messages to people off-list. > > *COUGH* > Mmm. Point. Gordon From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue May 12 05:11:01 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 07:11:01 -0300 Subject: Scored an SGI 4D/480 VGX References: Message-ID: <15c901c9d2ea$a5a00e00$767919bb@desktaba> > > I was surprised noone else bid on it. The skins look in good > condition. > This is the biggest model of the 4D series ever made. Yummy :-) What is that "no mutilation required" I see on these ads, Richard? From lists at databasics.us Tue May 12 05:32:51 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 00:32:51 -1000 Subject: List behavior (spinoff from Re: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format?) In-Reply-To: <1242064333.4544.0.camel@elric> References: <01C9D1DF.76A1D7C0@MSE_D03> <4A0855FC.3000006@cimmeri.com> <1242064333.4544.0.camel@elric> Message-ID: <4A095053.3020507@databasics.us> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: Sellam didn't post obscene messages to people off-list. As the recipient of some of them, I beg to differ. I almost left the list for that reason. Warren From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue May 12 05:38:41 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 11:38:41 +0100 Subject: govliq: Gould Concept/32 model 32/67 & Kennedy 9-track tape (Jacksonville, FL) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1242124721.6174.8.camel@elric> On Mon, 2009-05-11 at 20:53 -0600, Richard wrote: > In article , > Ian King writes: > > > You're right, it's rarely worth taking a 'road trip' these days, > > and the better shipping companies offer a good deal. > > I take the road trip when its a drive I feel like making. I went through a phase of buying stuff off eBay that ended on either a Friday or Saturday, cost about a month's "toy budget" less the cost of petrol to pick it up (within about 300 miles round-trip) and was somewhere that had good fun roads ;-) A nice blat around the countryside, a pub lunch, and a new toy to play with when I get home. What could be better? Gordon From axelsson at acc.umu.se Tue May 12 03:19:05 2009 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?=) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 10:19:05 +0200 Subject: list of nordisk data books and floppy disks In-Reply-To: <4A015DF9.7070401@ifi.uio.no> References: <494D7BD2.3000108@brothom.nl> <4A015DF9.7070401@ifi.uio.no> Message-ID: <4A0930F9.1040806@acc.umu.se> Tore Sinding Bekkedal wrote: > Bert Thomas wrote: >> If you need access to one of these, contact me an urge me to make a >> deal. Keep pushing, as pushing raises priority with me. >> >> Books: >> >> NOTIS-BG User Guide >> NOTIS-RG New functions in the E-version > ... > > Hello Bert, are these still available? > > Regards, > -Tore :) > More NOTIS databooks are available from the Ume? library now. We have a lot of extra manuals too. The list is on the page http://www.ndwiki.org/wiki/Virtual_library and I'm adding scanned copies as soon as I finish them. There are even more manuals than that, I haven't had time to list all of the half a ton of manuals I got from a friend together with 8 cubic meters of ND computers... I've lost my heavy iron virginity. :D Right now I'm the caretaker of a lot of ND machines. Some highlights of the collection is a ND-butterfly, a ND-110 CPU on three full length ISA cards hosted in an Ericsson PC. Another nice machine is a ND-5700 in a cabinet with a filestore in a separate cabinet. ... anyone wanting 100 VT220 terminals? It's the only part we couldn't save and it has to go within a few weeks. All is of the same model, Nokia VDU 301S, white phosphor and possibility to connect a serial mouse. That last detail hints about a graphic option but we haven't found out how to enable it. The terminals are based on the 80186 processor and NEC D7220AD graphics controller. /G?ran From emu at e-bbes.com Tue May 12 07:11:28 2009 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 06:11:28 -0600 Subject: pdp 11/23 to PC conversion wanted, then hardware is available In-Reply-To: <02f201c9d2b3$a18114e0$c900a8c0@JWEST> References: <02f201c9d2b3$a18114e0$c900a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <4A096770.3000702@e-bbes.com> Hello Jay, where is this guy ? Cheers, emanuel Jay West wrote: > Got the following email, if interested in the conversion work please > contact me off-list. He who does the conversion can collect and do > whatever they wish with the hardware: > ------------------------------ > Hi > > I have a working DEC 11/23. it is actually a Marquette 8000 Holter system > http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=458 > > The monitor is fading and the computer is a relic and takes up a lot of > space > > However, it s a very good Holter system since there are c programs on it > that are very good for research. > > I would like to transfer the entire system to a PC. and would gladly > give you guys the hardware, > but I would need to first transfer the functionality to a new PC. > > I read in url above that the terminal may be special and there may be > special board in the computer > > I am a developer but I am not a hardware tech. > > Any suggestions? > > > > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue May 12 08:33:20 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 08:33:20 -0500 Subject: list server In-Reply-To: <030801c9d2b4$9a1edd30$c900a8c0@JWEST> References: <030801c9d2b4$9a1edd30$c900a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <4A097AA0.6000401@gmail.com> Jay West wrote: > btw - just a few days ago I noticed there was a speed/duplex type > mismatch on the classiccmp server. It had no transmit or receive errors, > but was sporadically send/receiving very slow. That has been corrected > and it flies now :) Can you keep the slow sends/receives for any messages which contain bickering? ;) From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Tue May 12 08:56:09 2009 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 06:56:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SGI, the name lives on Message-ID: <15865.53925.qm@web112209.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Those who are into SGI may like this... http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/11/sgi-lives-or-at-least-its-name-does/ From evan at snarc.net Tue May 12 09:04:45 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 10:04:45 -0400 Subject: SGI, the name lives on In-Reply-To: <15865.53925.qm@web112209.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <15865.53925.qm@web112209.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A0981FD.5000208@snarc.net> > > Those who are into SGI may like this... > > http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/11/sgi-lives-or-at-least-its-name-does/ Ironic that the (Calif.) Computer History Museum is located in a former SGI building! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue May 12 11:13:09 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 12:13:09 -0400 Subject: List behavior (spinoff from Re: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format?) In-Reply-To: <4A087CAA.9070303@cimmeri.com> References: <01C9D1DF.76A1D7C0@MSE_D03> <4A0855FC.3000006@cimmeri.com> <1242064333.4544.0.camel@elric> <4A0871F4.9090706@cimmeri.com> <1242068905.6174.0.camel@elric> <4A087CAA.9070303@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: > Yep. ?I'm still a kid. ?Plus I'm a kid with Lyme disease... which very > unfortunately leads to fits of "Lyme rage" with very little provocation. I have been Lymed twice, but am only half the prick I used to be. Don't make excuses. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue May 12 11:16:09 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 12:16:09 -0400 Subject: Intergraph clipper docs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Anyone got some? ?I've got 4 Intergraph Clipper RISC based > workstations, but no docs. ?Wikipedia says that the systems used CLIX, > a Un*x SysV variant. > > I'm looking for user manuals, hardware manuals, OS manuals, etc. RCS/RI have a good pile of Intergraph stuff, but I do not know where we have it buried. I will try to tae a look next time I am out that way. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue May 12 11:17:35 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 12:17:35 -0400 Subject: Scored an SGI 4D/480 VGX In-Reply-To: <15c901c9d2ea$a5a00e00$767919bb@desktaba> References: <15c901c9d2ea$a5a00e00$767919bb@desktaba> Message-ID: > ? What is that "no mutilation required" I see on these ads, Richard? Demilitarization. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue May 12 11:24:07 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 12:24:07 -0400 Subject: govliq: Gould Concept/32 model 32/67 & Kennedy 9-track tape (Jacksonville, FL) In-Reply-To: <1242124721.6174.8.camel@elric> References: <1242124721.6174.8.camel@elric> Message-ID: > A nice blat around the countryside, a pub lunch, and a new toy to play > with when I get home. ?What could be better? I am on my Western roadtrip right now, in the thriving metropolis of Valentine, NE, and on this roadtrip I managed to see BOTH Carhenge AND the world's largest Ball of Twine. -- Will From js at cimmeri.com Tue May 12 11:33:56 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 11:33:56 -0500 Subject: List behavior (spinoff from Re: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format?) In-Reply-To: References: <01C9D1DF.76A1D7C0@MSE_D03> <4A0855FC.3000006@cimmeri.com> <1242064333.4544.0.camel@elric> <4A0871F4.9090706@cimmeri.com> <1242068905.6174.0.camel@elric> <4A087CAA.9070303@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <4A09A4F4.3080203@cimmeri.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> Yep. I'm still a kid. Plus I'm a kid with Lyme disease... which very >> unfortunately leads to fits of "Lyme rage" with very little provocation. >> > > I have been Lymed twice, but am only half the prick I used to be. > > Don't make excuses. > > -- > Will It's not an excuse.. it's a factor. Don't dictate my experience. Your experience is not mine. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 12 11:41:16 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 09:41:16 -0700 Subject: Update of Apollo Computer Wikipedia page Message-ID: <4A09A6AC.9050509@bitsavers.org> I added a model and system software release table to the page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Computer If someone happens to have the release dates of the computers, that would make a nice addition. Also, there are still some software releases that I haven't found dates for. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue May 12 11:43:34 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 12:43:34 -0400 Subject: List behavior (spinoff from Re: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format?) In-Reply-To: <4A09A4F4.3080203@cimmeri.com> References: <01C9D1DF.76A1D7C0@MSE_D03> <4A0855FC.3000006@cimmeri.com> <1242064333.4544.0.camel@elric> <4A0871F4.9090706@cimmeri.com> <1242068905.6174.0.camel@elric> <4A087CAA.9070303@cimmeri.com> <4A09A4F4.3080203@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: > It's not an excuse.. it's a factor. ?Don't dictate my experience. ?Your > experience is not mine. A chorus of deer ticks sings out "plonk". -- Will From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue May 12 11:48:49 2009 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 09:48:49 -0700 Subject: 8 bit SBC with floppy controller for disk archiving [was Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format] In-Reply-To: References: <4A0886B0.13655.14B2290A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200905120948.50025.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Tuesday 12 May 2009, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Mon, 11 May 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > How does one derive the RWC/TG43 signal that some 8" drives require? > > If there's an 8" connector, why is HDL not brought to it? > > The TG43 signal can be synthesized with a very small amount of externel > circuitry. See: > > http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html > > The price is quite reasonable. I have one on order. I bought one of these years ago. Works great! Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are were God is dividing by zero" From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 12 12:05:39 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 10:05:39 -0700 Subject: 8 bit SBC with floppy controller for disk archiving [was Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format] In-Reply-To: <200905120948.50025.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: , , <200905120948.50025.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <4A0949F3.3930.17ACD7AF@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 May 2009 at 9:48, Lyle Bickley wrote: > I bought one of these years ago. Works great! Hi Lyle, I know about the dbit thing--and have recommended it to others sticking 8" drives on PeeCees, but while inexpensive, the cost isn't insignificant. If my latest referral's experience is any indicator, these things are not "in stock" and the person who orders one may have a long wait. My point was that that this being a "fresh" project (i.e. designed from scratch) a couple of extra outputs would not be unwelcome for the 8" crowd. I think that the dbit adapter is a bit over-engineered, however. The same thing could be probably be accomplished with a 6 or 8 pin PIC. --Chuck From js at cimmeri.com Tue May 12 12:12:53 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 12:12:53 -0500 Subject: List behavior (spinoff from Re: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format?) In-Reply-To: References: <01C9D1DF.76A1D7C0@MSE_D03> <4A0855FC.3000006@cimmeri.com> <1242064333.4544.0.camel@elric> <4A0871F4.9090706@cimmeri.com> <1242068905.6174.0.camel@elric> <4A087CAA.9070303@cimmeri.com> <4A09A4F4.3080203@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <4A09AE15.30203@cimmeri.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> It's not an excuse.. it's a factor. Don't dictate my experience. Your >> experience is not mine. >> > > A chorus of deer ticks sings out "plonk". > > -- > Will "I have been Lymed twice, but am only half the prick I used to be." Sorry to inform you of this, Will, but apparently, you're still the whole prick. From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 12 12:29:26 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 10:29:26 -0700 Subject: List behavior (spinoff from Re: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format?) In-Reply-To: <4A09AE15.30203@cimmeri.com> References: <01C9D1DF.76A1D7C0@MSE_D03>, , <4A09AE15.30203@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <4A094F86.27554.17C2A74D@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 May 2009 at 12:12, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > Will "I have been Lymed twice, but am only half the prick I used to > > be." > Sorry to inform you of this, Will, but apparently, you're still the > whole prick. Gentlemen, please! You're not chimpanzees. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 12 12:38:48 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 13:38:48 -0400 Subject: List behavior (spinoff from Re: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format?) In-Reply-To: <4A094F86.27554.17C2A74D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <01C9D1DF.76A1D7C0@MSE_D03>, , <4A09AE15.30203@cimmeri.com> <4A094F86.27554.17C2A74D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <7539EC41-60DD-4587-A5D0-C2C55B18EA0C@neurotica.com> On May 12, 2009, at 1:29 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> Will "I have been Lymed twice, but am only half the prick I used to >>> be." >> Sorry to inform you of this, Will, but apparently, you're still the >> whole prick. > > Gentlemen, please! You're not chimpanzees. Speak for yourself! -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 12 12:37:18 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 11:37:18 -0600 Subject: Scored an SGI 4D/480 VGX In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 12 May 2009 07:11:01 -0300. <15c901c9d2ea$a5a00e00$767919bb@desktaba> Message-ID: In article <15c901c9d2ea$a5a00e00$767919bb at desktaba>, "Alexandre Souza" writes: > > > > I was surprised noone else bid on it. The skins look in good > > condition. > > This is the biggest model of the 4D series ever made. Yummy :-) > > What is that "no mutilation required" I see on these ads, Richard? It means you're not required to turn the hardware into a worthless pile of scrap metal. So far, nothing I've gotten from govliquidation has required mutilation, but I suppose that if it did, I wouldn't bid on it. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From js at cimmeri.com Tue May 12 13:03:14 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 13:03:14 -0500 Subject: List behavior (spinoff from Re: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format?) In-Reply-To: <7539EC41-60DD-4587-A5D0-C2C55B18EA0C@neurotica.com> References: <01C9D1DF.76A1D7C0@MSE_D03>, , <4A09AE15.30203@cimmeri.com> <4A094F86.27554.17C2A74D@cclist.sydex.com> <7539EC41-60DD-4587-A5D0-C2C55B18EA0C@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A09B9E2.4080807@cimmeri.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 12, 2009, at 1:29 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>>> Will "I have been Lymed twice, but am only half the prick I used to >>>> be." >>> Sorry to inform you of this, Will, but apparently, you're still the >>> whole prick. >> >> Gentlemen, please! You're not chimpanzees. > > Speak for yourself! > LOL. Good one, Dave. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 12 13:12:42 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 14:12:42 -0400 Subject: List behavior (spinoff from Re: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format?) In-Reply-To: <4A09B9E2.4080807@cimmeri.com> References: <01C9D1DF.76A1D7C0@MSE_D03>, , <4A09AE15.30203@cimmeri.com> <4A094F86.27554.17C2A74D@cclist.sydex.com> <7539EC41-60DD-4587-A5D0-C2C55B18EA0C@neurotica.com> <4A09B9E2.4080807@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On May 12, 2009, at 2:03 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: >>>>> Will "I have been Lymed twice, but am only half the prick I >>>>> used to >>>>> be." >>>> Sorry to inform you of this, Will, but apparently, you're still the >>>> whole prick. >>> >>> Gentlemen, please! You're not chimpanzees. >> >> Speak for yourself! >> > LOL. Good one, Dave. [big toothy grin] -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From sethm at loomcom.com Tue May 12 13:11:56 2009 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 11:11:56 -0700 Subject: List behavior (spinoff from Re: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format?) In-Reply-To: <4A094F86.27554.17C2A74D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <01C9D1DF.76A1D7C0@MSE_D03> <4A09AE15.30203@cimmeri.com> <4A094F86.27554.17C2A74D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 10:29 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12 May 2009 at 12:12, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > >> > Will ?"I have been Lymed twice, but am only half the prick I used to >> > be." >> Sorry to inform you of this, Will, but apparently, you're still the >> whole prick. > > Gentlemen, please! ?You're not chimpanzees. > Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is classiccmp! -Seth From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue May 12 13:22:13 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 11:22:13 -0700 Subject: Scored an SGI 4D/480 VGX References: Message-ID: <4A09BE54.D961ACF2@cs.ubc.ca> Richard wrote: > > In article <15c901c9d2ea$a5a00e00$767919bb at desktaba>, > "Alexandre Souza" writes: > > > > > > > I was surprised noone else bid on it. The skins look in good > > > condition. > > > This is the biggest model of the 4D series ever made. Yummy :-) > > > > What is that "no mutilation required" I see on these ads, Richard? It's a rare instance of accuracy & honesty in terminology from a bureaucracy. I'm rebuilding some RACAL radio receivers that were mutilated/demilitarised before release from the military. Some switches were removed, numerous components snipped out, some component boards snapped in half, etc. They're recoverable, but it sure is annoying. In this case it may be that the person doing the work was actually trying to cut a line between meeting the (silly) military directive and leaving the equipment in a still-recoverable state for those that might obtain later them on the surplus market. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue May 12 13:38:32 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 11:38:32 -0700 Subject: to a good home - b205 References: <4A085D6D.4000803@bitsavers.org> <4A08768F.2080004@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A0884CF.9010803@bitsavers.org> <4A089069.8030504@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A089B03.1050400@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4A09C227.454A1DBA@cs.ubc.ca> Al Kossow wrote: > > http://tjsawyer.com/B205Home.htm has a picture of the American Computer > Museum system. Nice writeup there, interesting to read of the connections to Clifford Berry and Harry Huskey. From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue May 12 14:54:53 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 15:54:53 -0400 Subject: List behavior In-Reply-To: <4A09B9E2.4080807@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <200905121955.n4CJt34o043417@keith.ezwind.net> On Tue, 12 May 2009 13:03:14 -0500, js at cimmeri.com wrote: .... a lot of anonymous crap to this list. Who is js at cimmeri.com ? I see once in the past he signed an email as Josh. He uses a network solutions mailserver but there is no webpage for cimmeri.com. I thought this was a "real name" required list, or am I mistaken ? It has been years since I looked for/at the FAQ so I may be delusional about its exsistance or contents :) I have always assumed that if for "other reasons" one did not use a their real name in the email header, then it should be used as a signiture at the end of the message. In my mind jS has not meet that basic level of Netiquette making further comment or contact off subject. Back under my rock .... The other Bob From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue May 12 15:04:27 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 13:04:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [rescue] Tapes, Drives, Libraries, and Arrays Need to Go (fwd) Message-ID: If someone would forward this to CC-talk and elsewhere, I'd appreciate it. I am preparing to move soon. I don't know how soon, but it's likely going to be the case that I find something in a neighborhood I want, that I can afford, and that I need to pounce on quickly, so I'm trying to be rid of anything I don't have any hope of ever using. I have a huge cabinet (I think it holds either 300 or 500 reels) of full of 2400ft nine track tapes. I no-longer have a working nine-track drive. This cabinet is about four feet wide, seven feet tall, and two feet deep. This pile o' tapes, the cabinet in which they hang so uselessly, and the non-working DEC SCSI tape drive[0] need to go. I don't want any cash for it or the tapes, just please come and get them. If you only want the drive, I'll deliver it anywhere in Austin, but preference will go to someone who'll pick up the cabinet full of tapes. I also have a Sun StorEdge L3500 tape library with six DLT7000 drives. It is mechanically sound, and the drives work, but there's a defective optointerruptor that determines the X position of the carriage; it's a cheap part to replace and shouldn't take a lot of labor, but I'm backing up to disk now. You may either pick this up, or help me load it and unload it, and I'll drive it to your central Texas location with my truck. Photos of the library are here: http://jonathan.celestrion.net/photos/library/ I also have a Compaq Storageworks BA370 24-slot enclosure with dual controllers. This takes SCSI Storageworks "storage building blocks", and I may actually have enough of them to fill the unit (not necessarily with disks in the blocks). I have spare batteries, controllers, and other bits. Need a fiber switch? I have gigabit Brocade Silkworm and possibly enough GBICs to fill it. Feel free to make an offer on the BA370 or the switch. I'll mail the switch or deliver the BA370 in central Texas, but I won't ship the BA370 anywhere; it's just too hard to crate reasonably. [0] I don't recall the model, but it's vacuum-loading, SCSI, and 5 or 6 rack units tall. The failure mode is that it fails to load the tape (or loads, fails to notice, and then unloads), so hopefully it's just a sticky sensor. -- Jonathan Patschke ( "They don't have the right to read a book out loud." Elgin, TX ( --Paul Aiken USA ( Executive Director, Authors Guild _______________________________________________ rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 12 15:28:10 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 20:28:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: List behavior In-Reply-To: <200905121955.n4CJt34o043417@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <849162.27060.qm@web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com> I used to know a woman at work who had a valid email address @.co.uk and I too assumed it was based around a website www..co.uk , which turned out to be a non-existant site. I'm sure those who know more about emails could find out where it actually comes from. Just my $0.02 Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Tue, 12/5/09, Bob Bradlee wrote: From: Bob Bradlee Subject: Re: List behavior To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Tuesday, 12 May, 2009, 8:54 PM On Tue, 12 May 2009 13:03:14 -0500, js at cimmeri.com wrote: .... a lot of anonymous crap to this list. Who is js at cimmeri.com ? I see once in the past he signed an email as Josh. He uses a network solutions mailserver but there is no webpage for cimmeri.com. I thought this was a "real name" required list, or am I mistaken ? It has been years since I looked for/at the FAQ so I may be delusional about its exsistance or contents :) I have always assumed that if for "other reasons" one did not use a their real name in the email header, then it should be used as a signiture at the end of the message. In my mind jS has not meet that basic level of Netiquette making further comment or contact off subject. Back under my rock .... The other Bob From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue May 12 06:36:34 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 07:36:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 8 bit SBC with floppy controller for disk archiving [was Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format] In-Reply-To: <4A0886B0.13655.14B2290A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4A0886B0.13655.14B2290A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 May 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > How does one derive the RWC/TG43 signal that some 8" drives require? > If there's an 8" connector, why is HDL not brought to it? The TG43 signal can be synthesized with a very small amount of externel circuitry. See: http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html The price is quite reasonable. I have one on order. Steve -- From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue May 12 06:57:24 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 07:57:24 -0400 Subject: 8 bit SBC with floppy controller for disk archiving [was Xerox820system disks in Teledisk format] Message-ID: <0KJJ00D9T55Q6BC9@vms173017.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: 8 bit SBC with floppy controller for disk archiving [was Xerox820system disks in Teledisk format] > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 20:12:32 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 11 May 2009 at 22:26, Andrew Lynch wrote: > >> Hi Chuck! Thanks! By extensions, I mean the Disk IO has a regular >> Shugart mini-disk interface with all the usual signals and options. >> It also has the "feature" interface which imports/exports the rest of >> the NEC765/i8272 signals necessary for 8" and other drive support. An >> 8" drive cable with what signals are needed for that drive could be >> fabricated using the Shugart mini-disk interface plus whatever >> signals/options are needed from the feature connector. The 8" drive >> cable would be custom to Disk IO and that drive but there are multiple >> 8" drive interfaces so that seemed to me to be the most flexible way >> to provide support in a limited PCB space format. > >Hi Andrew, > >Good work! > >I did check out your schematic (I think)--FDC_A.jpg and FDC_B.jpg and >I don't see the "special feature" connector anywhere. > >Here are my comments on what I see, they're only speculation and >opinion, so please don't take them for anything more than that. I'm >certain that you had good reasons for doing what you did the way you >did it! > >One of the problems with using a 4MHz Z80 on a raw data stream is >that the Z80A isn't fast enough to handle it. While a uC might do >that, the simplest seems to be the Catweasel's use of a 128K time- >domain memory. Leave it to the host processor to crunch the data >later. One could well more easily hook up a uC to the raw disk >interface, don't you think? To do NS*, Victor and Heath hard sector and other odd formats would be outside the range of Z80 even at 10mhz. Most of those had unique external hardware to assist. >How does one derive the RWC/TG43 signal that some 8" drives require? >If there's an 8" connector, why is HDL not brought to it? The 765 does support that its' implmentation that determines if its brought to a connector. >One thing that I'm not certain of is the use of the US0 and US1 pins >for select. The PC uses a separate register for select and leaves >US0 and US1 NC. I suspect that this bears on some aspect of 5.25" >operation and the 765's polling mode, but I'm not certain. 765 has unit select and head select. Typically when it's polling unit select is active for the four drive poll (ready line). When a drive is selected for read or wrie head (HDL) is enabled with internal timers and a read or write will take place. The PC uses a seperate register for that and side steps that feature. >Would it be better to multiplex the READY signal to a set of jumpers >that allows one to select either the drive's own ready (all 8" drives >and most 5.25" have this) or a tied-high READY? The full out designs for 765 do that but most simplify to cust chip/cost and usually that is the first to go. >FWIW, the Victor 9000 disk format is variable datarate (or CLV, >depending on how you want to look at it). It's also very unique to Victor and even when a new thing like so many other non portable formats caused the user great pain in importing new software available to those that had more generic formats. Allison >Best regards as always, >Chuck > > > From js at cimmeri.com Tue May 12 15:53:15 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 15:53:15 -0500 Subject: List behavior In-Reply-To: <849162.27060.qm@web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <849162.27060.qm@web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A09E1BB.4040307@cimmeri.com> Andrew Burton wrote: > I used to know a woman at work who had a valid email address @.co.uk and I too assumed it was based around a website www..co.uk , which turned out to be a non-existant site. > I'm sure those who know more about emails could find out where it actually comes from. > > Just my $0.02 > > > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk I used to know a dancer at a strip club who had a valid domain <@domain.extension> and I too assumed it meant she had an email address, webpage, ftp site, gopher and archie servers, and WHOIS information... all of which turned out to be "non-existant." I'm sure this means that she was really a part of a terrorist cell organization, and that those here who work in the FBI, CIA, or NSA could *and should* find out who she actually is. Just my $0.01. Regards, John S. js at cimmeri.com From tosteve at yahoo.com Tue May 12 16:18:11 2009 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 14:18:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FREE: original IBM 5151 monochrome monitor (works) Message-ID: <424938.36827.qm@web110605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Pick-up or pay shipping. Aliso Viejo, CA 92656 From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue May 12 18:57:50 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 16:57:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anti-uv eprom labels Message-ID: Does anyone know who sells sheets of uv-blocking labels for eproms? Google keeps returning stuff about prom dresses. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 12 19:03:01 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 17:03:01 -0700 Subject: anti-uv eprom labels In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A0A0E35.1020005@bitsavers.org> David Griffith wrote: > > Does anyone know who sells sheets of uv-blocking labels for eproms? I use black write-protect tabs from 5" floppies. From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue May 12 19:03:31 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 20:03:31 -0400 Subject: anti-uv eprom labels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200905130003.n4D03fJd059626@keith.ezwind.net> On Tue, 12 May 2009 16:57:50 -0700 (PDT), David Griffith wrote: >uv-blocking labels for eproms http://www.hamelco.com/eprom.htm The other Bob From feedle at feedle.net Tue May 12 19:07:33 2009 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 17:07:33 -0700 Subject: anti-uv eprom labels In-Reply-To: <4A0A0E35.1020005@bitsavers.org> References: <4A0A0E35.1020005@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <04297F0B-3536-4F21-93EF-5B9276730FB8@feedle.net> On May 12, 2009, at 5:03 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > David Griffith wrote: >> Does anyone know who sells sheets of uv-blocking labels for eproms? > > I use black write-protect tabs from 5" floppies. It would seem to this observer that microfloppy write-protect tabs would be harder to come by than.. well, EEPROM UV-blocking labels. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue May 12 19:16:58 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 18:16:58 -0600 Subject: anti-uv eprom labels In-Reply-To: <04297F0B-3536-4F21-93EF-5B9276730FB8@feedle.net> References: <4A0A0E35.1020005@bitsavers.org> <04297F0B-3536-4F21-93EF-5B9276730FB8@feedle.net> Message-ID: <4A0A117A.3010809@jetnet.ab.ca> C. Sullivan wrote: > > On May 12, 2009, at 5:03 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> David Griffith wrote: >>> Does anyone know who sells sheets of uv-blocking labels for eproms? >> >> I use black write-protect tabs from 5" floppies. > > It would seem to this observer that microfloppy write-protect tabs would > be harder to come by than.. well, EEPROM UV-blocking labels. Well would not any non-transparent label work? Ben. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 12 19:31:54 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 17:31:54 -0700 Subject: anti-uv eprom labels In-Reply-To: <4A0A117A.3010809@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4A0A0E35.1020005@bitsavers.org> <04297F0B-3536-4F21-93EF-5B9276730FB8@feedle.net> <4A0A117A.3010809@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4A0A14FA.5090604@bitsavers.org> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Well would not any non-transparent label work? > Adhesive is an issue. I think everyone has run into paper labels that have fallen off because the glue dried out. From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Tue May 12 19:37:11 2009 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 20:37:11 -0400 Subject: List behavior (spinoff from Re: Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format?) In-Reply-To: <1242064333.4544.0.camel@elric> References: <4A0855FC.3000006@cimmeri.com> <01C9D1DF.76A1D7C0@MSE_D03> <4A0855FC.3000006@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20090512203528.014b3680@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Gordon JC Pearce may have mentioned these words: >On Mon, 2009-05-11 at 11:44 -0500, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > > Not surprising; as I recall some people were also annoyed by Sellam's rude > > and insulting attitude and language and not entirely sorry to see *him* > leave. > >Sellam didn't post obscene messages to people off-list. {sarcasm} No, he did that on-list for all to see! {/sarcasm} Yes, I'm kidding. Laterz, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger _??_ (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 12 19:38:01 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 17:38:01 -0700 Subject: anti-uv eprom labels In-Reply-To: <4A0A117A.3010809@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <04297F0B-3536-4F21-93EF-5B9276730FB8@feedle.net>, <4A0A117A.3010809@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4A09B3F9.27823.194B367A@cclist.sydex.com> I use Avery 5430 plain white labels 1 3/4" x 3/4" (about 500 for $6)-- sufficient room for my illegible scrawls. If you were super-paranoid about UV, though, you could pick up some silver foil mailing labels (Avery 8986) 2 1/4" x 3/4" and snip them in half. But they're $13 for 300 labels, which isn't much of a deal. I'm sure your local office stationer's will have more suggestions... For those DIY-ers, spray some Scotch 77 adhesive on the barrier of your choice and stick it on... --Chuck From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue May 12 19:41:58 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 17:41:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anti-uv eprom labels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <696690.71077.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 5/12/09, David Griffith wrote: > Does anyone know who sells sheets of uv-blocking labels for > eproms? Google keeps returning stuff about prom dresses. 3M makes some UV blocking labels - they come in a roll, and you have to cut them to size yourself. As a side note, this stuff also is an excellent insulator, and is wonderful for covering bare wire joints. I think they call it "Electrical Tape" or something. I tend to use whatever adhesive labels are handy. I used to use write protect tabs for floppy disks... but now those are hard to come by. Actually, now I've been using just regular address labels, and I cut a piece to fit on the EPROM. I also use the same labels, cut to similar size, as floppy disk write protect tabs! -Ian From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue May 12 19:46:43 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 17:46:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anti-uv eprom labels In-Reply-To: <4A09B3F9.27823.194B367A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <960454.43401.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 5/12/09, Chuck Guzis wrote: > For those DIY-ers, spray some Scotch 77 adhesive on the > barrier of > your choice and stick it on... Hehe. You could get some of that window tinting film for cars, and "stickify" it in this manner... If you're really paranoid, just spray-paint the top of the chip with a couple coats of Krylon flat black. That oughta do it. :) -Ian From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 12 19:53:16 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 17:53:16 -0700 Subject: anti-uv eprom labels In-Reply-To: <4A0A14FA.5090604@bitsavers.org> References: , <4A0A117A.3010809@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4A0A14FA.5090604@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4A09B78C.3174.19591199@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 May 2009 at 17:31, Al Kossow wrote: > Adhesive is an issue. I think everyone has run into paper labels > that have fallen off because the glue dried out. You're right there! I've had the experience of matching up labels with disks where said labels (usually laser printer address labels) have fallen off. Instead of reprinting new labels, some Scotch 77 spray adhesive on the back of the old ones results in something a bit more permanent. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 12 20:04:37 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 18:04:37 -0700 Subject: anti-uv eprom labels In-Reply-To: <960454.43401.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <4A09B3F9.27823.194B367A@cclist.sydex.com>, <960454.43401.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A09BA35.13739.196373FC@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 May 2009 at 17:46, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Hehe. You could get some of that window tinting film for cars, and > "stickify" it in this manner... How aboiut some of that Mactac self-adhesive mylar film used to protect the undersides of offroad vehicles? > If you're really paranoid, just spray-paint the top of the chip with a > couple coats of Krylon flat black. That oughta do it. :) Some red glyptal would probably work as well--or better yet, a blob of Blackjack roofing cement... --Chuck From als at thangorodrim.de Tue May 12 21:07:03 2009 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 04:07:03 +0200 Subject: anti-uv eprom labels In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090513020703.GB27811@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 04:57:50PM -0700, David Griffith wrote: > > Does anyone know who sells sheets of uv-blocking labels for eproms? > Google keeps returning stuff about prom dresses. Hmm, there is this self adhesive aluminium foil tape that is sold for purposes like fixing up ducts and such. It is most definitely not transparent for UV, carries its own adhesive and is reasonably cheap (first hit on Google: Maplin, sells a 45 m roll for around 8 USD). Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue May 12 21:32:58 2009 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 21:32:58 -0500 Subject: pdp 11/23 to PC conversion wanted, then hardware is available References: <02f201c9d2b3$a18114e0$c900a8c0@JWEST> <4A096770.3000702@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <016901c9d373$2140e290$c900a8c0@JWEST> E.stiebler (and others) wrote..... ----- Original Message ----- From: "e.stiebler" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 7:11 AM Subject: Re: pdp 11/23 to PC conversion wanted, then hardware is available > Hello Jay, > where is this guy ? He didn't originally give me a location, but I queried him for it. Brooklyn NY. J From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue May 12 21:36:29 2009 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 21:36:29 -0500 Subject: list server References: <030801c9d2b4$9a1edd30$c900a8c0@JWEST> <4A097AA0.6000401@gmail.com> Message-ID: <017a01c9d373$9f1800e0$c900a8c0@JWEST> Jules wrote.... > Can you keep the slow sends/receives for any messages which contain > bickering? ;) milter-cli From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue May 12 21:39:39 2009 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 21:39:39 -0500 Subject: List behavior References: <01C9D1DF.76A1D7C0@MSE_D03><4A0855FC.3000006@cimmeri.com> <1242064333.4544.0.camel@elric><4A0871F4.9090706@cimmeri.com> <1242068905.6174.0.camel@elric><4A087CAA.9070303@cimmeri.com> <4A09A4F4.3080203@cimmeri.com> <4A09AE15.30203@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <01b101c9d374$106855b0$c900a8c0@JWEST> > Sorry to inform you of this, Will, but apparently, you're still the > whole prick. Kill this thread please From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue May 12 21:35:14 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 19:35:14 -0700 Subject: SGI Iris Crimson "grey door panel" skins? Message-ID: <4A0A31E2.9070906@mail.msu.edu> Anyone out there with spare Crimson skins? I have a Crimson in my office I'm bringing back to life and it's complete, but missing the grey door that covers the drive bays. Obviously not vital, but it'd be nice to have. Anyone have spares of these lying around? Thanks! Josh From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue May 12 21:45:04 2009 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 21:45:04 -0500 Subject: List behavior References: <200905121955.n4CJt34o043417@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <022001c9d374$d23e86f0$c900a8c0@JWEST> It was written... > I thought this was a "real name" required list, or am I mistaken ? I have general preference that people use real names here. However, for a variety of reasons, I would not enforce that - it's just my own preference. J From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 12 21:46:10 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 20:46:10 -0600 Subject: GSA: CM5 from NASA Message-ID: It says "residual rack", not really sure what that means, but how often does anything Connection Machine come up? Lot 91QSCI09092716 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 12 22:10:04 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 21:10:04 -0600 Subject: List behavior In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 12 May 2009 15:54:53 -0400. <200905121955.n4CJt34o043417@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: In article <200905121955.n4CJt34o043417 at keith.ezwind.net>, "Bob Bradlee" writes: > I thought this was a "real name" required list, or am I mistaken ? What is a "real name" anyway? Unless you're going to require certification of identities through a trusted third party who will issue a cryptographic key with which all posters must sign their messages, your hopes for a "real name" are pointless. At one point I psoted with my full name. Then some crank who didn't like me disagreeing with him on a politics list decided to leave a message on my home answering machine threatening me with bodily harm. After that I took all indicators of my name off my messages for a while. At one point another net.crank insisted he didn't have to take my position seriously because I wouldn't post with my "real name", as you assert in your message about js at cimmeri.com. To satisfy such troglodytes, I put my "real name" as Phil McRevis (say it out loud to get the joke). Having been satisfied that he "knew" my "real name", he then began to discuss the points of discussion with "Phil". At some later date I reverted to my real (ha!) first name and left Phil McRevis behind, but the point was made that insisting on someone's "real name" is a pointless exercise on the net. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue May 12 23:05:33 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 21:05:33 -0700 Subject: anti-uv eprom labels In-Reply-To: <4A09B3F9.27823.194B367A@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <04297F0B-3536-4F21-93EF-5B9276730FB8@feedle.net>, <4A0A117A.3010809@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A09B3F9.27823.194B367A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Hi First to consider is that to erase them under room light would take years. Next, even white paper looks black at UV frequencies. If you don't think so, place a white label over the window and use your eraser light. Check it as often as you feel like. If it erased in a month, that would be like 100's of years in direct sun light. Dwight ---------------------------------------- > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 17:38:01 -0700 > Subject: Re: anti-uv eprom labels > > I use Avery 5430 plain white labels 1 3/4" x 3/4" (about 500 for $6)-- > sufficient room for my illegible scrawls. If you were super-paranoid > about UV, though, you could pick up some silver foil mailing labels > (Avery 8986) 2 1/4" x 3/4" and snip them in half. But they're $13 > for 300 labels, which isn't much of a deal. > > I'm sure your local office stationer's will have more suggestions... > > For those DIY-ers, spray some Scotch 77 adhesive on the barrier of > your choice and stick it on... > > --Chuck > > > _________________________________________________________________ Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd1_052009 From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 12 23:12:11 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 21:12:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anti-uv eprom labels In-Reply-To: References: , <04297F0B-3536-4F21-93EF-5B9276730FB8@feedle.net>, <4A0A117A.3010809@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A09B3F9.27823.194B367A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20090512211044.T65066@shell.lmi.net> To be an AUTHENTIC restoration, doesn't it have to be a glue that dries up and the label falls off? From hachti at hachti.de Tue May 12 23:21:47 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 06:21:47 +0200 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? In-Reply-To: <49FDBB1B.7040901@nktelco.net> References: <49FA23E5.7010009@softjar.se> <49FB7466.1060500@hachti.de> <49FDBB1B.7040901@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <4A0A4ADB.3080306@hachti.de> Hi Charles, > The OS8 Handbook and the documents you mentioned have about all the > information you should need. But.. I asked here because it's not always easy to actually FIND the information needed. By the way I did not yet find out how to rebuild OS/8 from scratch (including reassembly). Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From hachti at hachti.de Tue May 12 23:25:20 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 06:25:20 +0200 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? In-Reply-To: References: <49FC8B73.4060605@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4A0A4BB0.9090703@hachti.de> > I'd say this was a pretty esoteric issue. ;) I've done tons of stuff > with OS/8, going back to when I was about 16 (24 years ago, ugh!) but > have never run across this. Perhaps you never wanted to connect a VT05 needing fill characters to your system? *g* > Now, I finally got an ASR-33 a few weeks ago, and I want to connect it > to a PDP-8, so I might have to think about this some more! :) You won't need to think too much: ASR33 simply works out of the box. Insert a KL8-E board, hook up the ASR33, run OS/8. Perhaps you have to adjust things like the rubout behaviour... Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From hachti at hachti.de Tue May 12 23:40:53 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 06:40:53 +0200 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? In-Reply-To: <49FF9330.4060903@nktelco.net> References: <49FC8B73.4060605@softjar.se> <49FF9330.4060903@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <4A0A4F55.2000108@hachti.de> Good morning, > First, the BUILD.SV utility is both a tool to change the OS > configuration and a record of the configuration. Typically, BUILD.SV > will contain the original configuration of the system. Changes are made > by RUNing and then SAVEing new versions of the configuration. Yes, that's well known on my side. It also seems to contain the LOADed device handlers. > The following is a transcript of taking a system configuration saved in > BLDDMO.SV and adding a non-system TD8E handler. I will insert comments > with a #. > ... > # in the configuration. > $BOOTSTRAP > SYS BUILT That's pretty not what I wanted to do (gave up the idea running VT05 at >300 baud). I know to use BUILD. The point is elsewhere. > Thats all there is to it. No. There is more. There's ALWAYS more *g* The console TTY is handled by the OS/8 keyboard handler *directly*. So it does NOT use one of the handlers installed with BUILD. BUILD itself seems to contain the LOADed handlers. When you enter BOOT (or BOOTSTRAP), BUILD writes out OS/8 and the configured handlers to the specified system device. The specified system device can be clean before. That proves that BUILD really puts all the OS/8 stuff onto the disk/DECTape. How is the system INITIALLY built? There are *some* explanations in the OS/8 handbook, involving some obscure paper tapes and BUILD. But no really detailed description. It would be nice to be able to compile OS/8 itself. > A TTY handler will already be present, so that will have to be removed > before it can be replaced. DELETE removes the handler from the > configuration. UNLOAD completely deletes the handler from the BUILD image. Yes, yes, yes. BUT: The TTY handler is only responsible for the TTY: device used for things like DIRECT and other software using handlers. The keyboard monitor does not use TTY:! I gave up the idea patching the KBM to generate fill characters: a) I'm not sure if I would be able to insert even one instruction into the KBM code (it's written TIGHT!), b) There are too many other programs using direct I/O. They all would have to be patched as well (FORTRAN IV RTS as an easy example). > The OS/8 Handbook is your friend. Start at page 2-34. Only at the first glance :-( Best wishes, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From hachti at hachti.de Tue May 12 23:51:49 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 06:51:49 +0200 Subject: anti-uv eprom labels In-Reply-To: References: , <04297F0B-3536-4F21-93EF-5B9276730FB8@feedle.net>, <4A0A117A.3010809@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A09B3F9.27823.194B367A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A0A51E5.7090309@hachti.de> > First to consider is that to erase them under > room light would take years. Mi first thought as well. In my opinion, *clear* scotch tape would do the job :-) AFAIK the windows are made of a special quartz glass that can be passed by the short wavelength UV needed to erase the EPROM. A normal window pane already doesn't let the short wave stuff through. Would be too bad: the mercury in mercury lamps emits most of its light in the short UV spectrum. But luckily, everything of it that is not converted at the fluorescent layer is blocked by the glass tube. The "inner lamp" (aka the best, fastest, and cheapest EPROM eraser) of a high-pressure mercury lamp is made of quartz as well, letting the hard UV through to the fluorescent outer bulb. Having the short wave UV passing glass would dramatically rise the skin cancer rate, I suspect. Best wishes, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 13 00:14:06 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 01:14:06 -0400 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? In-Reply-To: <4A0A4BB0.9090703@hachti.de> References: <49FC8B73.4060605@softjar.se> <4A0A4BB0.9090703@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 12:25 AM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> ?I'd say this was a pretty esoteric issue. ;) ?I've done tons of stuff >> with OS/8, going back to when I was about 16 (24 years ago, ugh!) but have >> never run across this. > > Perhaps you never wanted to connect a VT05 needing fill characters to your > system? *g* In all honesty, no. I don't think I've ever even *seen* a VT05. I've seen plenty of ASR-33s and lots of VT52s (and plenty more newer terminals), just not the VT05. In my experience, if you had an older system (pre-OMNIBUS), an ASR-33 was quite common, though I have used a VT220 with my TTL-era PDP-8s (because of the included 20mA interface). By the time the OMNIBUS came around (1972?), the ASR-33 was no longer the "only" terminal to use - I've seen a number of -8/e and -8/m with either a VT52 or some flavor of Tektronix terminal on them. The VT52 was quite common on the PDP-8/a, and I'd say the ASR-33 much less so, but by no means unknown. In all of that, the VT05 kinda stands apart. I don't have much experience with the multi-terminal Edusystems, but perhaps that was a place where the VT05 might have been used. You'd at least have a place for a driver, unlike at the OS/8 prompt. I also don't recall the VT05 being pushed in the PDP-8 literature of the day, unlike the ASR-33 and the VT52. >> ?Now, I finally got an ASR-33 a few weeks ago, and I want to connect it to >> a PDP-8, so I might have to think about this some more! :) > > You won't need to think too much: ASR33 simply works out of the box. Insert > a KL8-E board, hook up the ASR33, run OS/8. As long as you have the DEC reader-run-relay mod (there'll be a 6-wire cable from the TTY, not 4-wire), you'll do great. If you lack the RRR, you will probably have issues trying to load software, but you can punch tape and run software from the keyboard and printer just fine. There are plenty of 4-wire ASR-33s out there from DEC installations because they were used for non-console use, say on an DZ11 or a KL8JA. If you lack the RRR mod, I know I've seen it at the back of one of the DEC print sets, though I can't recall right now if it was a PDP-8 print set or an 11/20 printset (I have both and have read both many times). If your ASR-33 hasn't been cleaned and properly lubed (not over-lubed), you might want to take some time cleaning and adjusting it. I know I have to tweak on mine once or twice a year, but nothing really major - just make sure the top and bottom of the letters make even impressions, make sure the keys all create letters (and send bits down the wire). It shouldn't be hard to locate or write an ASCII echo program for testing the TTY. It's much more revealing of problems than trying to type DIR commands in OS/8. Good luck! -ethan From lists at databasics.us Wed May 13 00:51:32 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 19:51:32 -1000 Subject: List behavior In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A0A5FE4.5020104@databasics.us> Richard wrote: "Phil McRevis behind" Inspired punnery, or accident? Well played, in either case. My sister used to work for a newspaper. Some of the local morning DJs on radio in the area used to call in phony stories to the papers to see if they could get them published. My sister's paper was hit with an article about, erm, YOU, Phil McRevis, and your golf partners, Craven Moorehead and Haywood Jablomie. Mr. Jablomie, age 69, of course, apparently got a hole-in-one. Warren From vrs at msn.com Wed May 13 01:05:48 2009 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 23:05:48 -0700 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? References: <49FC8B73.4060605@softjar.se> <49FF9330.4060903@nktelco.net> <4A0A4F55.2000108@hachti.de> Message-ID: From: "Philipp Hachtmann" Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 9:40 PM > Yes, yes, yes. BUT: The TTY handler is only responsible for > the TTY: device used for things like > DIRECT and other software using handlers. > The keyboard monitor does not use TTY:! I tried .SET TTY DELAY 12 as mentioned in the KL8E driver source, but I got % OPERATION NOT YET IMPLEMENTED so just for grins, I tried: .SET TTY PAGE 1 .SET TTY PAUSE 767 That seemed to do something like what you were trying for. I'm sure 767 is much too large -- I used the largest value it would take, because I was trying this on SIMH and wasn't sure I'd be able to even see a shorter pause. (It turns out even 10 is noticeable on my SIMH.) Your mileage may vary, depending on what options were enabled at compile time. Hope it helps! Vince From hachti at hachti.de Wed May 13 01:31:43 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 08:31:43 +0200 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? In-Reply-To: References: <49FC8B73.4060605@softjar.se> <49FF9330.4060903@nktelco.net> <4A0A4F55.2000108@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4A0A694F.1000702@hachti.de> Hi Vince, > I tried > .SET TTY DELAY 12 > as mentioned in the KL8E driver source, but I got > % OPERATION NOT YET IMPLEMENTED Hehe... I get something like (currently away from my computer) "NOT IMPLEMENTED. REASSEMBLE KL8E SOURCE." So I did. Yeah, the driver source looks promising. But.. When you start to enable options, you'll realise that you nearly immediately run out of room in several places. At least the delay I got to work, I think. Since then I can correctly display DIRerctories. But... Read my last message - all that's completely useless :-( Best wishes, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 13 01:41:20 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 23:41:20 -0700 Subject: SMD-E specification wanted Message-ID: <4A0A6B90.9070906@brouhaha.com> Does anyone have a copy of the SMD-E Interface Specification, which is CDC/Imprimis/Seagate document 64712402? The spec for the earlier SMD interface is on Bitsavers, but it doesn't look like the SMD-E spec is there. Thanks! Eric From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue May 12 16:22:32 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 17:22:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 8 bit SBC with floppy controller for disk archiving [was Xerox 820 system disks in Teledisk format] In-Reply-To: <4A0949F3.3930.17ACD7AF@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <200905120948.50025.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <4A0949F3.3930.17ACD7AF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 May 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12 May 2009 at 9:48, Lyle Bickley wrote: > >> I bought one of these years ago. Works great! > I know about the dbit thing--and have recommended it to others > sticking 8" drives on PeeCees, but while inexpensive, the cost isn't > insignificant. Cost is always in the eye of the buyer (to mangle an expression) :-) After spending an evening splicing ribbon cables together I decided life's too short (I know about Dave's adapter, BTW, there were other factors involved with this decision). > If my latest referral's experience is any indicator, these things are > not "in stock" and the person who orders one may have a long wait. I checked beforehand and he claimed to have ten in stock. We shall see. > I think that the dbit adapter is a bit over-engineered, however. The > same thing could be probably be accomplished with a 6 or 8 pin PIC. Perhaps he was leaving the door open to some more complex function in the future? There was a mention of pending support for RX50 drives on the 34-pin connector - just a guess. Steve -- From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 13 01:52:12 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 23:52:12 -0700 Subject: Anyone got a PACE system? Or software, docs? Message-ID: <4A0A6E1C.7040403@brouhaha.com> I'm interested in talking to anyone who has or had a National Semiconductor PACE or INS8900 system, or documentation or software for one. In order to have something halfway interesting to run on the homebrew IMP-16 system John List designed and built, I decided to start from PACE software, since the PACE architecture is derived from (but not binary-compatible with) the IMP-16, which itself was inspired by the Data General Nova. A few years ago a friend gave me a copy of the fig-FORTH listing for the PACE, which turned out to be missing a page. The listing is on Bitsavers, but a complete listing is now available on the fig-FORTH implementations page on forth.org: http://www.forth.org/fig-forth/contents.html Over the course of the last week, I typed in the fig-FORTH listing (both source and object code), wrote a PACE cross-assembler, assembled fig-FORTH and compared the generated object to what I typed in, fixed the errors, wrote a PACE simulator, and fixed the fatal bug in the "U/" word of the fig-FORTH listing. (Maybe no one other than the author ever actually ran PACE fig-FORTH?) Now that it's working I've just started trying to translate it for the IMP-16, which doesn't have the RADC and SUBB instructions of the PACE, and which has somewhat different shift, rotate, and flag instructions. Google doesn't turn up much about the PACE other than the few manuals and datasheets already on Bitsavers. I know that a paper tape based resident assembler existed, as well as a disk operating system with a resident assembler. There may have also been a BASIC interpreter. Eric From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed May 13 01:52:30 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 23:52:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP things on Ebay Message-ID: So, you're browsing Ebay and you're interested in PDP things. What do you do? Select "Computers and Networking" then punch in "pdp". What do you see? PDP11 boards, PDP8 books, the occasional full computer -- good. You also see lots of Compaq power supplies with the string "pdp" in their model name. Also, some plasma displays. pdp == plasma display panel? Okay, I guess those belong in there too. I should have limited the search to "Vintage Computers". But check out this item: 160332833428. Checking further, it appears that this guy lists all 161 of his items under "Computers and Networking -> Other". What does he sell? Just take a look. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From hachti at hachti.de Wed May 13 01:56:53 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 08:56:53 +0200 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? In-Reply-To: References: <49FC8B73.4060605@softjar.se> <4A0A4BB0.9090703@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4A0A6F35.9030502@hachti.de> Hi, >> Perhaps you never wanted to connect a VT05 needing fill characters to your >> system? *g* > > In all honesty, no. I don't think I've ever even *seen* a VT05. I've > seen plenty of ASR-33s and lots of VT52s (and plenty more newer > terminals), just not the VT05. I have seen some old computers the last years... But the VT05 seems to be nearly a phantom. I know there exist other VT05s.... I have just seen two - in the same pile of stuff. And one is mine now. That's the only one I've ever seen working - after repair :-) > In my experience, if you had an older system (pre-OMNIBUS), an ASR-33 > was quite common, though I have used a VT220 with my TTL-era PDP-8s > (because of the included 20mA interface). > By the time the OMNIBUS > came around (1972?), 1970! > the ASR-33 was no longer the "only" terminal to > use - I've seen a number of -8/e and -8/m with either a VT52 or some > flavor of Tektronix terminal on them. The VT52 was quite common on > the PDP-8/a, and I'd say the ASR-33 much less so, but by no means > unknown. I don't know... My H316 comes with 33/35 ASR, too.... It's made in 1969. > place for a driver, unlike at the OS/8 prompt. I also don't recall > the VT05 being pushed in the PDP-8 literature of the day, unlike the > ASR-33 and the VT52. That's interesting. So I need to get a VT52, too. Will manage that - I hope... >>> Now, I finally got an ASR-33 a few weeks ago, and I want to connect it to >>> a PDP-8, so I might have to think about this some more! :) >> You won't need to think too much: ASR33 simply works out of the box. Insert >> a KL8-E board, hook up the ASR33, run OS/8. > > As long as you have the DEC reader-run-relay mod (there'll be a 6-wire > cable from the TTY, not 4-wire), you'll do great. If you lack the > RRR, you will probably have issues trying to load software, but you > can punch tape and run software from the keyboard and printer just > fine. There are plenty of 4-wire ASR-33s out there from DEC > installations because they were used for non-console use, say on an > DZ11 or a KL8JA. If you lack the RRR mod, I know I've seen it at the > back of one of the DEC print sets, though I can't recall right now if > it was a PDP-8 print set or an 11/20 printset (I have both and have > read both many times). Don't worry. Most 33's I have are equipped with the DEC mod. And.. I think you won't get in trouble without the mod. And... honestly... Loading software via teletype is one of the most time consuming excercises I ever did. I sometimes booted a Honeywell H316 via teletype (a unit that has tty as only peripheral). It's awful. Loading the CPU test in over half an hour...!! To a 4Kx16 system. BTW Honeywell used ASR33 with software flow control (XON/XOFF) in a half duplex configuration. The reader starts on a XON character and stops after reading an XOFF character. I have only one machine in this configuration. If anyone wants to trade one, I could use another one. Can offer a mint ASR33 or a 35KSR, each with DEC, mod for it! > If your ASR-33 hasn't been cleaned and properly lubed (not > over-lubed), you might want to take some time cleaning and adjusting > it. I know I have to tweak on mine once or twice a year, but nothing > really major - just make sure the top and bottom of the letters make > even impressions, make sure the keys all create letters (and send bits > down the wire). Aha? I never had to adjust anything.. except... The hammer. I replaced the gum by ugly windings of electric tape - works like a charm, but has to be replaced every 3 to 4 paper rolls. Take care not to ruin your print hammer!!! On one unit I have rewound the hammer spring to get a better print result (there is NO adjustment for the hammer force, isn't there?!?). Not really a funny excercise. That's all. I primarily was a collector of mechanical teleprinter gear, so I am a bit familiar with mechanical digital equipment. > It shouldn't be hard to locate or write an ASCII echo > program for testing the TTY. It's much more revealing of problems > than trying to type DIR commands in OS/8. What about local echo? ... And if your 33 is really tooo bad to restore - just throw it away and get another one. They stand around in every corner. I did not yet have to throw one away, but... Still having some incomplete machines (better called fragments) sitting in the basement, but that's another story (and it was not me who dismantled them!). They'll go to the dumpster when I move house next time. Of course with the important parts (print head, handle, intact cover parts etc.) removed. Best wishes, Philipp :-) -- http://www.hachti.de From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 13 02:09:30 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 03:09:30 -0400 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? In-Reply-To: <4A0A6F35.9030502@hachti.de> References: <49FC8B73.4060605@softjar.se> <4A0A4BB0.9090703@hachti.de> <4A0A6F35.9030502@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 2:56 AM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> In all honesty, no. ?I don't think I've ever even *seen* a VT05... > > I have seen some old computers the last years... But the VT05 seems to be > nearly a phantom. I know there exist other VT05s.... I have just seen two - > in the same pile of stuff. And one is mine now. That's the only one I've > ever seen working - after repair :-) I can entirely believe that. I don't think very many were made compared to most other forms of terminals. > I don't know... My H316 comes with 33/35 ASR, too.... It's made in 1969. I was thinking of DEC equipment in particular. I know that hobbyists used ASR33s with early IMSAIs, etc (cf Micro-Soft's paper tape BASIC) years after they were no longer on every DEC machine. > That's interesting. So I need to get a VT52, too. Will manage that - I > hope... There is lots of VT52 support at the application level for OS/8. The big one is the VTEDIT TECO MACRO. You can edit files as if with EDT. The code is *ugly* but I have used it with a real VT52 (it doesn't work right with a VT220 in VT52 mode - the emulation must not be bug-for-bug compatible). > Don't worry. Most 33's I have are equipped with the DEC mod. And.. I think > you won't get in trouble without the mod. Without the mod, the CPU can't single-step the reader. Sometimes that matters, sometimes it doesn't, I think. > And... honestly... Loading > software via teletype is one of the most time consuming excercises I ever > did. It is awful, but I've owned PDP-8s that only had paper-tape as a load device. > Aha? I never had to adjust anything.. except... The hammer. I replaced the > gum by ugly windings of electric tape - works like a charm, but has to be > replaced every 3 to 4 paper rolls. Take care not to ruin your print > hammer!!! I have one or two replacement rubber pads I bought from Western Numeric Controls over 10 years ago. They are new-in-bag, so haven't turned to goo... yet. > On one unit I have rewound the hammer spring to get a better print result > (there is NO adjustment for the hammer force, isn't there?!?). There may be (I haven't tweaked that in a while), but the big one for my main teletype is balancing upper and lower force - sometimes my letters have an uneven impression. > That's all. I primarily was a collector of mechanical teleprinter gear, so I > am a bit familiar with mechanical digital equipment. Fair enough. >> It shouldn't be hard to locate or write an ASCII echo >> program for testing the TTY. ?It's much more revealing of problems >> than trying to type DIR commands in OS/8. > > What about local echo? Does local echo send all the way out to the loop and back? Routing through the PDP-8 tests everything, but I can see how local echo could be handy if you suspect a local mechanical problem. > ... And if your 33 is really tooo bad to restore - just throw it away and > get another one. They stand around in every corner. They used to be common at the Dayton Hamvention. I picked up a news TTY (w/modem in the pedestal) for $35 or $50 at Dayton about 25 years ago. I still have it, but I removed the touch-tone keypad in a failed attempt to turn it into a local-only TTY for my PDP-8 (I later got a real console TTY) So now, this one answers the phone, but can't dial. I last tested it calling into CompuServe shortly after I bought it. It was great to see the login prompt in yellow and black. I haven't seen a single TTY for sale at Dayton in at least 20 years. -ethan From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed May 13 02:09:50 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 09:09:50 +0200 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? In-Reply-To: <4A0A6F35.9030502@hachti.de> References: <49FC8B73.4060605@softjar.se> <4A0A4BB0.9090703@hachti.de> <4A0A6F35.9030502@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20090513070950.GA9975@Update.UU.SE> > I have seen some old computers the last years... But the VT05 seems to be > nearly a phantom. I know there exist other VT05s.... I have just seen two > - in the same pile of stuff. And one is mine now. That's the only one > I've ever seen working - after repair :-) True, I visited a fellow some weeks ago who had three(!), probably not working. Other than that I've not seen any. > That's interesting. So I need to get a VT52, too. Will manage that - I hope... You seem to find everything cool, I'm sure you will pick one of these up to :) > ... And if your 33 is really tooo bad to restore - just throw it away and > get another one. They stand around in every corner. I did not yet have to > throw one away, but... I disagree, I just bought one last week and I've been looking for a while. And I know others who has been looking to. Anyway, my new toy will need some servicing, now I know where to turn with my questions :D Kind Regards, Pontus. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 13 02:09:55 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 00:09:55 -0700 Subject: SMD-E specification wanted In-Reply-To: <4A0A6B90.9070906@brouhaha.com> References: <4A0A6B90.9070906@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4A0A7243.7070406@bitsavers.org> Eric Smith wrote: > Does anyone have a copy of the SMD-E Interface Specification, which is > CDC/Imprimis/Seagate document 64712402? The spec for the earlier SMD > interface is on Bitsavers, but it doesn't look like the SMD-E spec is > there. > I made a table of the differences, but I can't find it right now. You can deduce it by looking at the extra tag bits on the faster drives. And watch out for E-SMD vs SMD-E. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 13 02:46:26 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 00:46:26 -0700 Subject: SMD-E specification wanted In-Reply-To: <4A0A7243.7070406@bitsavers.org> References: <4A0A6B90.9070906@brouhaha.com> <4A0A7243.7070406@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4A0A7AD2.7020504@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Does anyone have a copy of the SMD-E Interface Specification, which is > CDC/Imprimis/Seagate document 64712402? The spec for the earlier SMD > interface is on Bitsavers, but it doesn't look like the SMD-E spec is > there. Al Kossow wrote: > I made a table of the differences, but I can't find it right now. You can > deduce it by looking at the extra tag bits on the faster drives. Are there not electrical differences? Some SMD-E drives have transfer rates of 24 Mbps, and I'm dubious that the SN75110 drivers and SN75107/108 receivers that were specified in the original SMD spec are suitable for data rates that high (judging by their worst-case propagation delay spec). > And watch out for E-SMD vs SMD-E. What's E-SMD? And for that matter, what is SMD-O? Some drives, like the Seagate Elite, claim to be compatible with SMD-O and SMD-E. Eric From hachti at hachti.de Wed May 13 03:21:50 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 10:21:50 +0200 Subject: PDP things on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A0A831E.7080502@hachti.de> > of his items under "Computers and Networking -> Other". What does he > sell? Just take a look. Hm... Here might be the missing link: http://www.ems-synthi.demon.co.uk/ Look at the "History" section, http://www.ems-synthi.demon.co.uk/emsstory.html I once stumbled across those pictures. Just "googled" them out again. Best wishes, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed May 13 05:08:23 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 11:08:23 +0100 Subject: anti-uv eprom labels In-Reply-To: References: , <04297F0B-3536-4F21-93EF-5B9276730FB8@feedle.net> , <4A0A117A.3010809@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A09B3F9.27823.194B367A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1242209303.3825.5.camel@elric> On Tue, 2009-05-12 at 21:05 -0700, dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > First to consider is that to erase them under > room light would take years. I've left EPROMs outside on a bright sunny day to erase. It didn't work. I left them out all week, and they still read perfectly. So, in the interests of experiment, I nuked them in the eraser for five minutes at a time, reading them off after every blast. They took 20 minutes before they started to "read wrong", and were fully erased in half an hour - pretty much what I'd expect. Okay, so this far north (I'm south of toresbe but probably further north than most people on here) the sun isn't that strong, but it looks to me like a week of direct summer sunshine had no effect at all on the EPROMs. Gordon From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed May 13 07:20:16 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 07:20:16 -0500 Subject: anti-uv eprom labels In-Reply-To: <4A09BA35.13739.196373FC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4A09B3F9.27823.194B367A@cclist.sydex.com>, <960454.43401.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A09BA35.13739.196373FC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A0ABB00.5070501@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> If you're really paranoid, just spray-paint the top of the chip with a >> couple coats of Krylon flat black. That oughta do it. :) > > Some red glyptal would probably work as well--or better yet, a blob > of Blackjack roofing cement... A quick blast of angle grinder to the glass window will probably work wonders, too. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed May 13 08:33:45 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 06:33:45 -0700 Subject: anti-uv eprom labels In-Reply-To: <4A0ABB00.5070501@gmail.com> References: <4A09B3F9.27823.194B367A@cclist.sydex.com>, <960454.43401.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A09BA35.13739.196373FC@cclist.sydex.com> <4A0ABB00.5070501@gmail.com> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 07:20:16 -0500 > From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com > To: > Subject: Re: anti-uv eprom labels > > Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> If you're really paranoid, just spray-paint the top of the chip with a >>> couple coats of Krylon flat black. That oughta do it. :) >> >> Some red glyptal would probably work as well--or better yet, a blob >> of Blackjack roofing cement... > > A quick blast of angle grinder to the glass window will probably work wonders, > too. > > Hi Most any direct electrical arc will erase them quickly. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail? goes with you. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Mobile1_052009 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 13 09:14:18 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 10:14:18 -0400 Subject: PDP things on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4A0A831E.7080502@hachti.de> References: <4A0A831E.7080502@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 4:21 AM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > >> of his items under "Computers and Networking -> Other". ?What does he >> sell? ?Just take a look. > > Hm... Here might be the missing link: > > http://www.ems-synthi.demon.co.uk/ > > Look at the "History" section, > http://www.ems-synthi.demon.co.uk/emsstory.html > > I once stumbled across those pictures. Just "googled" them out again. Very nice photos. Good chunk of history there. Thanks for pointing those out. -ethan From vrs at msn.com Wed May 13 10:01:57 2009 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 08:01:57 -0700 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? References: <49FC8B73.4060605@softjar.se> <49FF9330.4060903@nktelco.net> <4A0A4F55.2000108@hachti.de> <4A0A694F.1000702@hachti.de> Message-ID: From: "Philipp Hachtmann" Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 11:31 PM > At least the delay I got to work, I think. Since then I can correctly > display DIRerctories. But... > Read my last message - all that's completely useless :-( If your concern is the large software base that does something like TSF; JMP .-1; TLS to output a character, then yeah, you'll need hardware line-feed delay. Per the KL8J/M8655 documentation: " Fill Characters -- VT05 To operate at speeds above 300 baud, the VT05 requires that filler characters be transmitted to it followeing any line feed character. The insertion of the "FIL" jumper on the M8655 causes four all zero characters to be automatically transmitted to the VT05 following every line feed. The transmit flag is not set until the KL8-JA is ready to accept other data. " There doesn't seem to be any equivalent provision for the KL8E/M8650, or (surprisingly) the DKC8/M8316. So I think your easiest solution for an 8/e/f/m/a is to install an M8655. For earlier machines, the M707 transmitter module has a "wait" input, which is designed to hold off a half-duplex line, but which I believe could be adapted to do what you want. You'd have to add a couple of chips somewhere (effectively modifying or replacing the M707), though. If the VT05 dropped DSR or some similar signal during the interval that it is not ready, it would make things a lot simpler. I don't see the circuitry to do that in the VT05 schematics, though. Vince From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 13 10:07:54 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 11:07:54 -0400 Subject: ASR-33, was Re: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? In-Reply-To: <20090513070950.GA9975@Update.UU.SE> References: <49FC8B73.4060605@softjar.se> <4A0A4BB0.9090703@hachti.de> <4A0A6F35.9030502@hachti.de> <20090513070950.GA9975@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <026C784B-7EC1-4F2F-8054-4C6B3A13EDBC@neurotica.com> On May 13, 2009, at 3:09 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> ... And if your 33 is really tooo bad to restore - just throw it >> away and >> get another one. They stand around in every corner. I did not yet >> have to >> throw one away, but... > > I disagree, I just bought one last week and I've been looking for a > while. And I know others who has been looking to. > > Anyway, my new toy will need some servicing, now I know where to turn > with my questions :D Pardon me for jumping in, but on a recent big road trip (will tell that story soon) I finally picked up two ASR-33s. I have been looking for a long time. I gave one of them to Sridhar (he was with me for part of that road trip), and I've had some luck getting the remaining one mostly working. It has an annoying issue with carriage return...If a CR is received, and if the print mechanism hasn't moved far enough to the right for the return action to build up enough momentum, friction causes the carriage to stop before it gets far enough to the left, so it doesn't trip the "the carriage has returned" lever. I don't know if it's a lubrication issue or if the CR spring is worn out. I'm pretty sure it's not the dash pot, as it doesn't get quite that far. Does anyone have a spare top cover? Mine is shattered. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 13 10:36:46 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 09:36:46 -0600 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? In-Reply-To: References: <49FC8B73.4060605@softjar.se> <4A0A4BB0.9090703@hachti.de> <4A0A6F35.9030502@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4A0AE90E.3050507@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > They used to be common at the Dayton Hamvention. I picked up a news > TTY (w/modem in the pedestal) for $35 or $50 at Dayton about 25 years > ago. I still have it, but I removed the touch-tone keypad in a failed > attempt to turn it into a local-only TTY for my PDP-8 (I later got a > real console TTY) So now, this one answers the phone, but can't dial. > I last tested it calling into CompuServe shortly after I bought it. > It was great to see the login prompt in yellow and black. > > I haven't seen a single TTY for sale at Dayton in at least 20 years. I think they still use TTY's and modems for deaf people, so you still have a small market for them. > -ethan Ben. From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 13 12:32:33 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 11:32:33 -0600 Subject: PDP things on Ebay In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 12 May 2009 23:52:30 -0700. Message-ID: When I see stuff like that, I report the item. I report keyword spam in listings, particularly when the seller admits that they spam keywords into the listing just to get more views. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 13 13:05:13 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 19:05:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: anti-uv eprom labels In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at May 12, 9 04:57:50 pm Message-ID: > > > Does anyone know who sells sheets of uv-blocking labels for eproms? I normally use the foil write-enable tabs for 8" floppies (on the grounds they're the right size and I have plenty of them). I may stick a paper label over that if I need to label the EPROM in some way. Actually, just about anything will do. Unless you're going to be leaving this board out in the sun all day, it's not going to get much UV light on it. So a paper label on its own should be easily enough. I think the EPROM pacakage was made upside-down :-). If the quartz window had been on the bottom, it would have been effecrtively covered when the EPROM was fitted into a socket. It would have been easy to put the EPROMs in an eraser with the pins towareds the UV source. Of course you then couldn't have erased the EPROMs when they were fitted to the PCB, but very few boards allowed you to program the EPROMs without removing them, so this would be no problem [1]. [1] Yes, I do know the DEC Omnibus EPROM module that has a bank of 1702As on it, which are connected to the rest of the logic by edge fingers on the top edge of the PCB with plug-on jumper blocks. Apprenetly you connected special cables between those top connectors and a 1702A programmer to program the soldered-in 1702s. I am not sure why they did this, I think turned-pin sockets would have been cheaper and as reliable. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 13 13:15:33 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 19:15:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: anti-uv eprom labels In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at May 13, 9 06:33:45 am Message-ID: > Hi > Most any direct electrical arc will erase them quickly. Particularly if applied to the pins :-) (Sorry, couldn't resist) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 13 13:24:11 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 19:24:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: ASR-33, was Re: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? In-Reply-To: <026C784B-7EC1-4F2F-8054-4C6B3A13EDBC@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at May 13, 9 11:07:54 am Message-ID: [ASR33] > It has an annoying issue with carriage return...If a CR is > received, and if the print mechanism hasn't moved far enough to the > right for the return action to build up enough momentum, friction > causes the carriage to stop before it gets far enough to the left, so > it doesn't trip the "the carriage has returned" lever. I don't know > if it's a lubrication issue or if the CR spring is worn out. I'm > pretty sure it's not the dash pot, as it doesn't get quite that far. My first thought was the dashpot adjustment, but you say 'it doesn't get that far'. I assume by this you mean you've stepped the carriage over far enough for the piston to be entirely out of the dashpot cylinder, and when it gets a CR, the carriage returns, but not far enough for the piston to enter the cylinder. To me this sounds like gummy lubricants. I wouldn't run a second-hand ASR33 (or any other piece of mechanical equipment, actually) without going over all the lubrication points. Actually, I'd strip it down, clean off the old oil and grease and put it back together again (this doesn't take that long if you have the manuals -- I did my first one while still at school (so I was working evenings and weekends), I didn't have the manuals, and I was learning as I went, and it only took a couple of weeks). IIRC when it gets a crriage return, it lifts the pawls from the carriage feed ratchet wheel at the front left side of the typing unit. At this point the carriage is free to return (pullled by the spring), the pawls only re-engage when it gets the next character. You should check this is the case (if the pawls are not held off the ratchet wheel, then obviously the carriage will be stopped). In the state where thhe pawls are lifted, the carriage should move freely, you can move it by hand to see if it seems to be sticking. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 13 13:27:39 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 19:27:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? In-Reply-To: <4A0A6F35.9030502@hachti.de> from "Philipp Hachtmann" at May 13, 9 08:56:53 am Message-ID: > ... And if your 33 is really tooo bad to restore - just throw it away > and get another one. They No, I disagree. They're getting a lot rarer now, and I've enver found one that can't be got going again.They're quite simple mechanisms, actually, and make a welcome change for me from diging through PCBs of logic. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 13 13:50:07 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 11:50:07 -0700 Subject: anti-uv eprom labels In-Reply-To: References: from "David Griffith" at May 12, 9 04:57:50 pm, Message-ID: <4A0AB3EF.32261.1D32FFDA@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 May 2009 at 19:05, Tony Duell wrote: > Actually, just about anything will do. Unless you're going to be > leaving this board out in the sun all day, it's not going to get much > UV light on it. So a paper label on its own should be easily enough. Anything, including nothing. I have eproms that were last programmed 20+ years ago with no label covering the window and exposed to fluorescent room lighting and the contents are just fine. There is probably some energy threshold that photons must exceed to effect erasure. Mostly, I use labels to identify contents. I like the idea of an upside-down eprom, Tony. Too bad it's about 4 decades too late! --Chuck P.S. Does anyone have any updates to the software for the EZ-EP parallel port programmer? I've run into some Winbond fash chips that the programmer doesn't handle correctly--even though it correctly identifies them. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed May 13 16:13:48 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 22:13:48 +0100 Subject: anti-uv eprom labels In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A0B380C.2030500@philpem.me.uk> David Griffith wrote: > Does anyone know who sells sheets of uv-blocking labels for eproms? > Google keeps returning stuff about prom dresses. Farnell still sell them -- a quick search for "eprom label" on http://uk.farnell.com/ lists a couple of different sizes, manufactured by Tyco. Part numbers are: 463802 12100 5.1 x 16.5mm 463814 12101 12.7 x 25.4mm 463826 12102 12.7 x 25.4mm 463838 12103 12.7 x 25.4mm The first two are "permanent polyester", third is "removable UV opaque polyester", last one is "metallised polyester". 500 labels per pack, and they appear to be intended for tractor-feed dot-matrix printers and devices of that sort. Though to be fair I'd probably just buy a P-touch printer and a couple of rolls of labels. The 12mm "TZ" label tapes and PT-10xx series printers can be had quite cheaply, and should do a good enough job. If you're feeling pessimistic, buy the metallic label tapes, but expect to pay through the nose for them. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From chd_1 at nktelco.net Wed May 13 17:12:13 2009 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 18:12:13 -0400 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? In-Reply-To: <4A0A4F55.2000108@hachti.de> References: <49FC8B73.4060605@softjar.se> <49FF9330.4060903@nktelco.net> <4A0A4F55.2000108@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4A0B45BD.2050809@nktelco.net> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Good morning, > To you too.... I completely mis-understood the source of your troubles. > Best wishes, and to you. > > Philipp > -chuck From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 13 15:58:29 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 14:58:29 -0600 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 13 May 2009 08:56:53 +0200. <4A0A6F35.9030502@hachti.de> Message-ID: In article <4A0A6F35.9030502 at hachti.de>, Philipp Hachtmann writes: > ... And if your 33 is really tooo bad to restore - just throw it away > and get another one. They stand around in every corner. [...] Can I have some of what you've been smoking? Seriously, you're *way* out of touch with the current state of affairs if this is what you really think about model 33 teletypes. Units in good cosmetic condition and working order sell on ebay for about $300-400, fairly consistently for the last several years. They have been fairly scarce over the last year or so. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From chd_1 at nktelco.net Wed May 13 18:06:57 2009 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 19:06:57 -0400 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? In-Reply-To: <4A0A4ADB.3080306@hachti.de> References: <49FA23E5.7010009@softjar.se> <49FB7466.1060500@hachti.de> <49FDBB1B.7040901@nktelco.net> <4A0A4ADB.3080306@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4A0B5291.2080901@nktelco.net> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi Charles, > >> The OS8 Handbook and the documents you mentioned have about all the >> information you should need. > But.. I asked here because it's not always easy to actually FIND the > information needed. > By the way I did not yet find out how to rebuild OS/8 from scratch > (including reassembly). > > Philipp > I don't think that I understood the source of your troubles. I think that the basic problem is that most of the OS/8 system did its own thing with the console. There is no getting around that. I suspect that it is impossible to rebuild OS/8 today. I would be surprised if OS/8 was actually maintained on a PDP-8. All of the diagnostic listing, for example, were generated using PAL10 on a PDP-10. I have tried to find a coherent set of binaries and this can be difficult too. SET is especially problematical because it requires intimate knowledge of the handler it is going to patch. I have the opinion that the the suggestions about using SET to change things in the KL8-E hander are a red herring, they were probably never added to SET. -chuck From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed May 13 18:21:10 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 00:21:10 +0100 Subject: DEC ST506 Interface Adapter Part No 54-17003-01 Message-ID: <008801c9d421$816a33c0$843e9b40$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> One of these is on eBay at the moment. I am looking for an ST506 adapter to go into a MicroVAX 3100 Model 80 or a VAXStation 3100 M38. Trouble is I can't find any technical information on the part number, just who has this item in stock. Can anyone tell me if this is the part I need? Thanks Rob From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 13 18:41:20 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 17:41:20 -0600 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? In-Reply-To: <4A0B5291.2080901@nktelco.net> References: <49FA23E5.7010009@softjar.se> <49FB7466.1060500@hachti.de> <49FDBB1B.7040901@nktelco.net> <4A0A4ADB.3080306@hachti.de> <4A0B5291.2080901@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <4A0B5AA0.1060606@jetnet.ab.ca> Charles H Dickman wrote: > I suspect that it is impossible to rebuild OS/8 today. I would be > surprised if OS/8 was actually maintained on a PDP-8. All of the > diagnostic listing, for example, were generated using PAL10 on a PDP-10. Strange... we still have 8's around but no 10's. Well we have a few but I don't think PDP8 code lurks there. > I have tried to find a coherent set of binaries and this can be > difficult too. SET is especially problematical because it requires > intimate knowledge of the handler it is going to patch. I have the > opinion that the the suggestions about using SET to change things in the > KL8-E hander are a red herring, they were probably never added to SET. I can under stand a PDP8 not having it's own development system, but compared to todays software, the PDP-10 software for the 8 must fit on a CD-rom, source and all. > -chuck > > > From chd_1 at nktelco.net Wed May 13 19:11:17 2009 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 20:11:17 -0400 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? In-Reply-To: <4A0B5AA0.1060606@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <49FA23E5.7010009@softjar.se> <49FB7466.1060500@hachti.de> <49FDBB1B.7040901@nktelco.net> <4A0A4ADB.3080306@hachti.de> <4A0B5291.2080901@nktelco.net> <4A0B5AA0.1060606@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4A0B61A5.4090804@nktelco.net> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > I can under stand a PDP8 not having it's own development system, > but compared to todays software, the PDP-10 software for the 8 > must fit on a CD-rom, source and all. > >> -chuck No argument... just find it. -chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed May 13 19:40:50 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 17:40:50 -0700 Subject: anti-uv eprom labels In-Reply-To: References: from "dwight elvey" at May 13, 9 06:33:45 am Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > Subject: Re: anti-uv eprom labels > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 19:15:33 +0100 > >> Hi >> Most any direct electrical arc will erase them quickly. > > Particularly if applied to the pins :-) (Sorry, couldn't resist) > > -tony Good point though. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail? has ever-growing storage! Don?t worry about storage limits. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage1_052009 From hachti at hachti.de Wed May 13 20:04:31 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 03:04:31 +0200 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? In-Reply-To: <4A0B45BD.2050809@nktelco.net> References: <49FC8B73.4060605@softjar.se> <49FF9330.4060903@nktelco.net> <4A0A4F55.2000108@hachti.de> <4A0B45BD.2050809@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <4A0B6E1F.9020804@hachti.de> Hi, > I completely mis-understood the source of your troubles. Oh. The VT05 terminal operates at speeds from 110 baud to 2400 baud, selectable with a rotary switch in the back (my unit is currently missing a counter ic to generate 110baud, but...). So far so good. The problem is, that when you want to operate the VT05 at speeds higher than 300 baud, you have to wait a certain amount of time after a line feed character or cursor positioning command. This is usually done by inserting zero fill characters (4 at 2400 baud) after the critical commands. If you don't obey this rule, the VT05 has not completed changing the line when you send the next character. This is a bit like a too slow cr on a teletype - funny but true. So my wish was to modify OS/8 so far that it generates those fill characters. The TTY: handler is also capable of correctly doing this for me. But many other programs - as the OS/8 keyboard monitor itself - use direct IO commands to read from and write to the terminal. So one would have to patch many programs. In case of the keyboard monitor, I don't know if there is any room left to put such a code in. And I don't know how to reassemble and correctly install a new keyboard monitor from scratch. So all I can do is to run the VT05 at 300 baud. Or get the advances serial interface (see other posting). Did this illustrate the problem? Best wishes, Philipp :-) -- http://www.hachti.de From hachti at hachti.de Wed May 13 20:09:05 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 03:09:05 +0200 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A0B6F31.8020308@hachti.de> Hi Tony, > No, I disagree. They're getting a lot rarer now, Hm... That seems to be a question of the continent you're living on. Here it's REALLY not too hard to find an ASR33. Yes, they don't stand around in *every* corner, but can be found from time to time. Really not too hard. > and I've enver found one > that can't be got going again. But if someone has robbed out half of the parts? That's what I have in the basement. Or if the covers are completely broken? Philipp :-) -- http://www.hachti.de From RichA at vulcan.com Wed May 13 20:56:28 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 18:56:28 -0700 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? In-Reply-To: <4A0B5291.2080901@nktelco.net> References: <49FA23E5.7010009@softjar.se> <49FB7466.1060500@hachti.de> <49FDBB1B.7040901@nktelco.net> <4A0A4ADB.3080306@hachti.de> <4A0B5291.2080901@nktelco.net> Message-ID: From: Charles H Dickman Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 4:07 PM > I suspect that it is impossible to rebuild OS/8 today. I would be > surprised if OS/8 was actually maintained on a PDP-8. All of the > diagnostic listing, for example, were generated using PAL10 on a PDP-10. That is easily remedied. We can certainly host PAL10 and any other PDP-10 based tools (PAL11, for example) on either the Tops-10 2065 or the TOPS-20 Toad-1 at PDPplanet. Let me know what you need, and I'll try to track it down. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell http://www.pdpplanet.org/ From charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com Wed May 13 21:29:20 2009 From: charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 19:29:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? Message-ID: <559149.54625.qm@web35306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Rich, Any news on the Sigma front? Lee Courtney 2124 Ashton Avenue Menlo Park, CA 94025 650-704-3934 cell --- On Wed, 5/13/09, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Rich Alderson > Subject: RE: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2009, 6:56 PM > From: Charles H Dickman > Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 4:07 PM > > > I suspect that it is impossible to rebuild OS/8 today. > I would be > > surprised if OS/8 was actually maintained on a PDP-8. > All of the > > diagnostic listing, for example, were generated using > PAL10 on a PDP-10. > > That is easily remedied.? We can certainly host PAL10 > and any other PDP-10 > based tools (PAL11, for example) on either the Tops-10 2065 > or the TOPS-20 > Toad-1 at PDPplanet.? Let me know what you need, and > I'll try to track it > down. > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Server Engineer > Vulcan, Inc. > 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 > Seattle, WA 98104 > > mailto:RichA at vulcan.com > (206) 342-2239 > (206) 465-2916 cell > > http://www.pdpplanet.org/ > From hachti at hachti.de Thu May 14 03:28:24 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 10:28:24 +0200 Subject: Vintage stuff here and there In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A0BD628.3070700@hachti.de> Hi, >> ... And if your 33 is really tooo bad to restore - just throw it away >> and get another one. They stand around in every corner. [...] > > Can I have some of what you've been smoking? What do you need? Seems a bit difficult to ship... And it's really scrap. To be clear: I never scrapped a teletype myself! But I have two units in the basements where major parts have been taken out by someone else who used them to complete another unit. Not my fault. > Seriously, you're *way* out of touch with the current state of affairs > if this is what you really think about model 33 teletypes. Units in > good cosmetic condition and working order sell on ebay for about > $300-400, fairly consistently for the last several years. They have > been fairly scarce over the last year or so. I disagree. I've been following eBay for interesting stuff in the last years. Yes, prices are rising here (Germany), too. But not like in the USA. We never saw a teletype with broken cover go for $1400 or similar. But we see teletypes ending without bids sometimes. Especially model 35 units when they're to far away to pick up. The heaviest I've seen so far was an incomplete PDP-8/L on eBay Germany going for approx EUR 1900. But that was exceptional and totally crazy. From my point of view, collecting vintage computer stuff is a game. A bit like a detective game. Get information, investigate, find stuff. It's not a business thing. We here also deliberately trade our stuff. Or just taking or givin each other. Storage space capabilities are a more important topic than eBay prices. I think that makes a major difference between our little scene and what's going on in US (especially eBay US). By the way, it was only about ASR33s. What's an ASR33? A pile of plastic and springs, that makes a lot of noise and is ugly inside. I prefer the 5 bit Teletype model 15 (ok, German license builds) as a beautiful mechanical machine (Two machines from my collection can be seen working in the quite recent "Valkyrie" movie). The model 28 and 35 are quite nice as well. M28 is very rare here. Never saw one. Only 35 and 33 are around here. So would you save a machine like this? http://hachti.de/a1/img_0171_1024.jpg That's the more usual state you find 33s here. The unit in the picture will go to scrap, I'm pretty sure. Could try to rescue it if anyone wants it. But shipping to US is very expensive. Regards, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 14 05:03:58 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 04:03:58 -0600 Subject: Vintage stuff here and there In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 14 May 2009 10:28:24 +0200. <4A0BD628.3070700@hachti.de> Message-ID: In article <4A0BD628.3070700 at hachti.de>, Philipp Hachtmann writes: > > Seriously, you're *way* out of touch with the current state of affairs > > if this is what you really think about model 33 teletypes. Units in > > good cosmetic condition and working order sell on ebay for about > > $300-400, fairly consistently for the last several years. They have > > been fairly scarce over the last year or so. > I disagree. [...] Well, it appears we are comparing apples to oranges with me talking about the US market and you talking about the EU/DE market. > So would you save a machine like this? > http://hachti.de/a1/img_0171_1024.jpg Personally, I would because I don't have a model 33, even in that condition. If I were encountering model 33s in that condition on a fairly regular basis, I would gather them together to restore whole units from the pieces. When I accumulated excess parts, I would make those available for trade/sale to others who are attempting to restore their machines. That particular teletype doesn't look in half bad condition to me, but since I don't have piles of 33 teletypes laying around I'm no expert. A model 33 is on my "to do" list, but given the pricing, I've been focusing on other lower hanging fruit first. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From brad at heeltoe.com Thu May 14 06:46:35 2009 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 07:46:35 -0400 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? In-Reply-To: References: <49FA23E5.7010009@softjar.se> <49FB7466.1060500@hachti.de> <49FDBB1B.7040901@nktelco.net> <4A0A4ADB.3080306@hachti.de> <4A0B5291.2080901@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <20203.1242301595@mini> Rich Alderson wrote: >From: Charles H Dickman >Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 4:07 PM > >> I suspect that it is impossible to rebuild OS/8 today. I would be=20 >> surprised if OS/8 was actually maintained on a PDP-8. All of the=20 >> diagnostic listing, for example, were generated using PAL10 on a PDP-10. > >That is easily remedied. We can certainly host PAL10 and any other PDP-10 >based tools (PAL11, for example) on either the Tops-10 2065 or the TOPS-20 >Toad-1 at PDPplanet. Let me know what you need, and I'll try to track it >down. There seem to be two separate issues here. One is the source for maindec diags (both pdp-8 and pdp-11), which seem to have been created and built on a pdp-10. Discovering those sources would be quite a find. I've only seen microfiche printouts. (i've been working in "the mill" the past few months and I keep hoping to find an old magtape in the ceiling or a closet :-) But I'm not sure I believe (yet) the notion that OS/8 was not built on a pdp-8. but who knows, I'm often mistaken. has anyone tried to track down the any maindec or os/8 authors? they might have kept a tape... -brad From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu May 14 08:27:14 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 06:27:14 -0700 Subject: Vintage stuff here and there In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Thu, 14 May 2009 10:28:24 +0200. <4A0BD628.3070700@hachti.de> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > From: legalize at xmission.com > Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 04:03:58 -0600 > Subject: Re: Vintage stuff here and there > > > In article , > Philipp Hachtmann writes: > >>> Seriously, you're *way* out of touch with the current state of affairs >>> if this is what you really think about model 33 teletypes. Units in >>> good cosmetic condition and working order sell on ebay for about >>> $300-400, fairly consistently for the last several years. They have >>> been fairly scarce over the last year or so. >> I disagree. [...] > > Well, it appears we are comparing apples to oranges with me talking > about the US market and you talking about the EU/DE market. > >> So would you save a machine like this? >> http://hachti.de/a1/img_0171_1024.jpg > > Personally, I would because I don't have a model 33, even in that > condition. > > If I were encountering model 33s in that condition on a fairly regular > basis, I would gather them together to restore whole units from the > pieces. When I accumulated excess parts, I would make those available > for trade/sale to others who are attempting to restore their machines. > > That particular teletype doesn't look in half bad condition to me, but > since I don't have piles of 33 teletypes laying around I'm no expert. > A model 33 is on my "to do" list, but given the pricing, I've been > focusing on other lower hanging fruit first. > -- Hi Speaking of bits and pieces, I could use a tape reader power supply for my 33. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_BR_life_in_synch_052009 From mike at brickfieldspark.org Thu May 14 11:15:38 2009 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 17:15:38 +0100 Subject: [personal] Vintage stuff here and there References: <4A0BD628.3070700@hachti.de> Message-ID: <001101c9d4af$38c28fd0$961ca8c0@mss.local> Philip, > By the way, it was only about ASR33s. What's an ASR33? A pile of plastic > and springs, that makes a lot of noise and is ugly inside. I prefer the 5 > bit Teletype model 15 (ok, German license builds) as a beautiful > mechanical machine Each to his own. > saw one. Only 35 and 33 are around here. 35's seem to be rarer than 33's in Europe, you have seen them around ? > http://hachti.de/a1/img_0171_1024.jpg What is the location of that machine, any idea of shipping cost to the UK ?. Best regards, Mike Hatch Web - www.soemtron.org PDP-7 - www.soemtron.org/pdp7.html Email - mike at soemtron.org Looking for a PDP-7 (some hope!) and an ASR33 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philipp Hachtmann" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 9:28 AM Subject: [personal] Vintage stuff here and there > > By the way, it was only about ASR33s. What's an ASR33? A pile of plastic > and springs, that makes a lot of noise and is ugly inside. I prefer the 5 > bit Teletype model 15 (ok, German license builds) as a beautiful > mechanical machine (Two machines from my collection can be seen working in > the quite recent "Valkyrie" movie). The model 28 and 35 are quite nice as > well. M28 is very rare here. Never saw one. Only 35 and 33 are around > here. > > So would you save a machine like this? > http://hachti.de/a1/img_0171_1024.jpg > > That's the more usual state you find 33s here. The unit in the picture > will go to scrap, I'm pretty sure. Could try to rescue it if anyone wants > it. But shipping to US is very expensive. > > Regards, > > Philipp > > > > > -- > http://www.hachti.de > > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu May 14 12:24:13 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 18:24:13 +0100 Subject: DEC ST506 Interface Adapter Part No 54-17003-01 In-Reply-To: <008801c9d421$816a33c0$843e9b40$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <008801c9d421$816a33c0$843e9b40$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <009c01c9d4b8$ce326550$6a972ff0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Robert Jarratt > Sent: 14 May 2009 00:21 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: DEC ST506 Interface Adapter Part No 54-17003-01 > > One of these is on eBay at the moment. I am looking for an ST506 > adapter to > go into a MicroVAX 3100 Model 80 or a VAXStation 3100 M38. Trouble is I > can't find any technical information on the part number, just who has > this > item in stock. Can anyone tell me if this is the part I need? > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob Looks like it is for a VAXstation 2000. Knowing that, does anyone know if such a thing could fit (and work) in one of the two machines I mention above? Thanks Rob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 14 12:25:41 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 18:25:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? In-Reply-To: <4A0B6F31.8020308@hachti.de> from "Philipp Hachtmann" at May 14, 9 03:09:05 am Message-ID: > > Hi Tony, > > > No, I disagree. They're getting a lot rarer now, > Hm... That seems to be a question of the continent you're living on. I thought we were both in the same continent. Last time I checked the UK was part of Europe (although some of us wish it wasn't...) ASR33s are not common in the UK. Apart from the 2 I own, I can't remember seeing one in the last 5 years. > > and I've enver found one > > that can't be got going again. > But if someone has robbed out half of the parts? That's what I have in That's not an ASR33, it's a pile of spare parts :-). More seriously, if only a few parts are missing, I'd either see if they were in my box of Model 33 parts, or I'd have a go at making them. Itf it really was only half a machine, I'd use it for spares, but I wouldn't throw anything out. > the basement. Or if the covers are completely broken? Assuming you have most of the parts of the cover, I'd stick them together with plastic weld, strenglen it with cotton fabric on the back (I am sure I've described this trick before), etc. -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 14 12:39:59 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 13:39:59 -0400 Subject: DEC ST506 Interface Adapter Part No 54-17003-01 In-Reply-To: <4044223926699016881@unknownmsgid> References: <4044223926699016881@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 1:24 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > Looks like it is for a VAXstation 2000. Knowing that, does anyone know if > such a thing could fit (and work) in one of the two machines I mention > above? I have a couple of uVAX 2000s (same box, move a jumper and don't attach a tube). The unexpanded box has connectors on the motherboard and comes with cables to attach one drive. I've seen them usually with RD53s and RD54s, but RD31s and RD32s should work fine, or IIRC, any drive you can manage to format on an RQDX3 using the Field Service formatter (not the Customer Runnable Diagnostics formatter). You can format known models of drive (RD31, RD32, RD53, RD54, and perhaps others) in the uVAX2000 box, too, but I don't think there's a way to format non-DEC-geometry drives there. So... unexpanded, you get a 20-pin and a 34-pin cable from the mainboard to the drive. What this expansion *might* be is a replacement cable that extends past the drive and goes out an access plate on the bottom of the box, then to a connector on a "skirt" (that should also be included) to give you a (ISTR) DD50P that you can cable to an external drive. There may also be a small circuit board in the skirt for the drive, it's been years since I've opened mine. There's also room in the skirt for external connector for the 8-port serial expander (DHT32?). I have one of those too, but haven't gotten the external cabling to use it. So... there _is_ a kit for adding an external disk connector to a MicroVAX/VAXstation 2000, but I have no idea if this part number is what it is. The *controller* is built into every uV/VS2000, but not the cabling for an external drive. -ethan From hachti at hachti.de Thu May 14 13:37:43 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 20:37:43 +0200 Subject: Vintage stuff here and there In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Thu, 14 May 2009 10:28:24 +0200. <4A0BD628.3070700@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4A0C64F7.6050304@hachti.de> > Speaking of bits and pieces, I could use a tape > reader power supply for my 33. Is that this piece of "extra hardware"? Or is it s.th. from inside? In the second case, there is help for you. Best wishes, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From spedraja at ono.com Thu May 14 14:04:20 2009 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 21:04:20 +0200 Subject: Documation or equivalent Message-ID: Where can I obtain a Documation card reader/puncher or similar device ? Kind Regards Sergio From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Thu May 14 14:39:24 2009 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 12:39:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Documation or equivalent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <334185.81935.qm@web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I got my documations readers on ebay. They don't punch. If your looking for punched card stuff that's still supported, try here: http://www.cardamation.com/ What do you need one for? Bob --- On Thu, 5/14/09, SPC wrote: From: SPC Subject: Documation or equivalent To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Thursday, May 14, 2009, 12:04 PM Where can I obtain a Documation card reader/puncher or similar device ? Kind Regards Sergio From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu May 14 15:04:03 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 21:04:03 +0100 Subject: DEC ST506 Interface Adapter Part No 54-17003-01 In-Reply-To: References: <4044223926699016881@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <00a501c9d4cf$226e69f0$674b3dd0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks > Sent: 14 May 2009 18:40 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: DEC ST506 Interface Adapter Part No 54-17003-01 > > On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 1:24 PM, Robert Jarratt > wrote: > > Looks like it is for a VAXstation 2000. Knowing that, does anyone > know if > > such a thing could fit (and work) in one of the two machines I > mention > > above? > > I have a couple of uVAX 2000s (same box, move a jumper and don't > attach a tube). The unexpanded box has connectors on the motherboard > and comes with cables to attach one drive. I've seen them usually > with RD53s and RD54s, but RD31s and RD32s should work fine, or IIRC, > any drive you can manage to format on an RQDX3 using the Field Service > formatter (not the Customer Runnable Diagnostics formatter). You can > format known models of drive (RD31, RD32, RD53, RD54, and perhaps > others) in the uVAX2000 box, too, but I don't think there's a way to > format non-DEC-geometry drives there. > > So... unexpanded, you get a 20-pin and a 34-pin cable from the > mainboard to the drive. What this expansion *might* be is a > replacement cable that extends past the drive and goes out an access > plate on the bottom of the box, then to a connector on a "skirt" (that > should also be included) to give you a (ISTR) DD50P that you can cable > to an external drive. There may also be a small circuit board in the > skirt for the drive, it's been years since I've opened mine. > > There's also room in the skirt for external connector for the 8-port > serial expander (DHT32?). I have one of those too, but haven't gotten > the external cabling to use it. > > So... there _is_ a kit for adding an external disk connector to a > MicroVAX/VAXstation 2000, but I have no idea if this part number is > what it is. The *controller* is built into every uV/VS2000, but not > the cabling for an external drive. > > -ethan Thanks very much for that. I thought this was an interface, and indeed the item description calls it an interface (item no 170331891284), but I found somewhere that said this was for a VS 2000, so it could be that the latter description was incorrect. I was once told that some MicroVAX 3100s had an ST506 option and thought this might be it. Regards Rob From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu May 14 14:13:27 2009 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 15:13:27 -0400 Subject: DEC ST506 Interface Adapter Part No 54-17003-01 In-Reply-To: References: <4044223926699016881@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <4A0C6D57.10208@verizon.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 1:24 PM, Robert Jarratt > wrote: > >> Looks like it is for a VAXstation 2000. Knowing that, does anyone know if >> such a thing could fit (and work) in one of the two machines I mention >> above? >> > > I have a couple of uVAX 2000s (same box, move a jumper and don't > attach a tube). The unexpanded box has connectors on the motherboard > and comes with cables to attach one drive. I've seen them usually > with RD53s and RD54s, but RD31s and RD32s should work fine, or IIRC, > any drive you can manage to format on an RQDX3 using the Field Service > formatter (not the Customer Runnable Diagnostics formatter). You can > format known models of drive (RD31, RD32, RD53, RD54, and perhaps > others) in the uVAX2000 box, too, but I don't think there's a way to > format non-DEC-geometry drives there. > > So... unexpanded, you get a 20-pin and a 34-pin cable from the > mainboard to the drive. What this expansion *might* be is a > replacement cable that extends past the drive and goes out an access > plate on the bottom of the box, then to a connector on a "skirt" (that > should also be included) to give you a (ISTR) DD50P that you can cable > to an external drive. There may also be a small circuit board in the > skirt for the drive, it's been years since I've opened mine. > > There's also room in the skirt for external connector for the 8-port > serial expander (DHT32?). I have one of those too, but haven't gotten > the external cabling to use it. > > So... there _is_ a kit for adding an external disk connector to a > MicroVAX/VAXstation 2000, but I have no idea if this part number is > what it is. The *controller* is built into every uV/VS2000, but not > the cabling for an external drive. > > -ethan > > The VS2000 can also format ANY MFM disk with to RQDX3 format for use with with that board. it has a diagnostic monitor page that does this. Anyone working with DEC hardware will find that feature alone useful. the Box was expanable to a second similar sized on to add either TK50 using the sasi (sorta scsi) bus or another MFM drive such as rd50, 51, 52, 53, 54 31 and 32 plus RX33 floppy(teac fd55GFR). It is also possible to mount a rx33 and a rd32 in the same box. Allison From steve at cosam.org Thu May 14 15:26:23 2009 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 22:26:23 +0200 Subject: [personal] Vintage stuff here and there In-Reply-To: <001101c9d4af$38c28fd0$961ca8c0@mss.local> References: <4A0BD628.3070700@hachti.de> <001101c9d4af$38c28fd0$961ca8c0@mss.local> Message-ID: <95838e090905141326u28d3568eh9389df04e518f5a7@mail.gmail.com> 2009/5/14 Mike Hatch : > 35's seem to be rarer than 33's in Europe, you have seen them around ? I know of two or three 35s in Europe. If you're after one, I know at least one of them is looking for a new owner - drop me a line off-list of you're interested. Cheers, -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 14 15:34:53 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 16:34:53 -0400 Subject: DEC ST506 Interface Adapter Part No 54-17003-01 In-Reply-To: <4A0C6D57.10208@verizon.net> References: <4044223926699016881@unknownmsgid> <4A0C6D57.10208@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 3:13 PM, Allison wrote: > The VS2000 can also format ANY MFM disk with to RQDX3 format for use with > with that board. ?it has a diagnostic monitor page that does this. ?Anyone > working with DEC hardware will find that feature alone useful. I thought it could only format "known" disk types, not arbitrary disks (a firmware limitation in the formatter application, not a hardware limitation). I know a QBus uVAX w/RQDX3 can format arbitrary disks with the right formatter (FS, not CRD). Hmm... my little pile of uVAX2Ks may have become more interesting to me - formerly, I've been booting up a uVAXII off of TK50 to format drives, and that takes a long while. > the Box was expanable to a second similar sized on to add either TK50 using > the sasi (sorta scsi) bus... Is it _really_ SASI? ISTR there's a 5380 chip in there, but I could be thinking of the TK50Z-FA board. I did once download and burn a set of EPROMs to try to boot a (slow) SCSI disk in the MV2000, but I don't think I ever got as far as loading a disk. I have a 200MB 3.5" Embedded SCSI drive ready to drop into a machine if I ever get a chance to pick that project back up. I know the interface won't be fast, but it would allow me to use more modern disks, and that's really, really handy, no matter how slow. > or another MFM drive such as rd50, 51, 52, 53, 54 > 31 and 32 plus RX33 floppy(teac fd55GFR). > ?It is also possible to mount a > rx33 and a rd32 in the same box. I haven't done it myself, but I'm aware that it's possible. -ethan From js at cimmeri.com Thu May 14 16:19:34 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 16:19:34 -0500 Subject: DEC ST506 Interface Adapter Part No 54-17003-01 In-Reply-To: References: <4044223926699016881@unknownmsgid> <4A0C6D57.10208@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4A0C8AE6.2050606@cimmeri.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 3:13 PM, Allison wrote: > >> The VS2000 can also format ANY MFM disk with to RQDX3 format for use with >> with that board. it has a diagnostic monitor page that does this. Anyone >> working with DEC hardware will find that feature alone useful. >> > > I thought it could only format "known" disk types, not arbitrary disks > (a firmware limitation in the formatter application, not a hardware > limitation). I know a QBus uVAX w/RQDX3 can format arbitrary disks > with the right formatter (FS, not CRD). > I think the uVax 2000 can format any MFM, if you know how to fiddle with the format parameters. I've formatted my entire MFM collection using it: Maxtor 2190, Seagate ST-251 & ST-225, CDC Wren and Wren II, and an IMI 5012H. Granted, some of these are the same as the RD variants. jS From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu May 14 19:59:12 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 17:59:12 -0700 Subject: Vintage stuff here and there In-Reply-To: <4A0C64F7.6050304@hachti.de> References: Your message of Thu, 14 May 2009 10:28:24 +0200. <4A0BD628.3070700@hachti.de> <4A0C64F7.6050304@hachti.de> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 20:37:43 +0200 > From: hachti at hachti.de > To: > Subject: Re: Vintage stuff here and there > >> Speaking of bits and pieces, I could use a tape >> reader power supply for my 33. > Is that this piece of "extra hardware"? Or is it s.th. from inside? In the second case, there is > help for you. > > Best wishes, > Philipp > > > -- > http://www.hachti.de Hi It is a small board that is usually on the right hand side of the printer, behind the line/local switch. It has a power resistor, cap, molex connector ( I think 9 pin ). Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_BR_life_in_synch_052009 From pcoghlan+cctech at vms.eurokom.ie Fri May 15 05:03:41 2009 From: pcoghlan+cctech at vms.eurokom.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 11:03:41 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: DEC ST506 Interface Adapter Part No 54-17003-01 Message-ID: <01N8Z8RX9L9KNSIK7G@vms.eurokom.ie> Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> the Box was expanable to a second similar sized on to add either TK50 using >> the sasi (sorta scsi) bus... > >Is it _really_ SASI? ISTR there's a 5380 chip in there, but I could >be thinking of the TK50Z-FA board. I did once download and burn a set >of EPROMs to try to boot a (slow) SCSI disk in the MV2000, but I don't >think I ever got as far as loading a disk. I have a 200MB 3.5" >Embedded SCSI drive ready to drop into a machine if I ever get a >chance to pick that project back up. I know the interface won't be >fast, but it would allow me to use more modern disks, and that's >really, really handy, no matter how slow. > I think there is an NCR5380 in the VS2000 but I don't remember for sure. However, I do know that I have used Wolfgang J. Moeller's PK2K SCSI drivers for VS/MV2000 successfully to access directly connected SCSI disks on my VS2000 while booted from either an RD54 or another cluster member. I have never tried replacing the ROMs in order to be able to boot from a SCSI disk though. (I have also formatted and used a number of random MFM disks pulled from PCs on my VS2000.) Regards, Peter From djg at pdp8.net Fri May 15 10:16:48 2009 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 11:16:48 -0400 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? Message-ID: <200905151516.n4FFGml07992@h-68-165-246-86-static.mclnva23.covad.net> >I suspect that it is impossible to rebuild OS/8 today. I would be >surprised if OS/8 was actually maintained on a PDP-8. All of the >diagnostic listing, for example, were generated using PAL10 on a PDP-10. > It is possible at least for parts of the OS78V4/DECMate version See sysgen.tx for build information in files below. The BI files in http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-8/os8/os78.v4/ ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/pdp8/pdp-8/os78/v4/ are batch files to build the system. I used it to build these images http://www.pdp8online.com/images/images/os8/DECmate_I.shtml when people couldn't find DECmate I disks. I never heard back if the disks I made for people actually worked ok. I remember is wasn't quite trouble free but so far I haven't found the disk image I put everything on to build those rx02's. If you have problems email me and I may either remember the problem or find the files I used to build. These instructions/files should help in building earlier versions. David Gesswein http://www.pdp8online.com/ -- Run an old computer with blinkenlights From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri May 15 10:40:45 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 17:40:45 +0200 Subject: DEC ST506 Interface Adapter Part No 54-17003-01 In-Reply-To: <01N8Z8RX9L9KNSIK7G@vms.eurokom.ie> References: <01N8Z8RX9L9KNSIK7G@vms.eurokom.ie> Message-ID: <20090515174045.c4374682.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 15 May 2009 11:03:41 +0100 (WET-DST) Peter Coghlan wrote: > I have never tried replacing > the ROMs in order to be able to boot from a SCSI disk though. I have modified ROMs in my VS2k. It can boot from SCSI. I am incompatible with VMS, so all I tried was NetBSD. But the NetBSD boot loader needs some tweaks to allow booting from the VS2k SCSI. A friend successfully booted VMS on his modified VS2k. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From rickb at bensene.com Fri May 15 11:49:12 2009 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 09:49:12 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4097 GPIB 8" Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <200905151516.n4FFGml07992@h-68-165-246-86-static.mclnva23.covad.net> References: <200905151516.n4FFGml07992@h-68-165-246-86-static.mclnva23.covad.net> Message-ID: Hello, all, I realize that this is likely a shot in the dark, but if there's any please that I might find some help, it's going to be here. There isn't much Tektronix information out there. I recently received a Tektronix 4051 in very nice shape, fully operational. Along with that, a slew of cartridge tapes, ROMPacks, two Joysticks, and a Tek 4907 8" Floppy Disc subsystem. The 4907 connects to the 4051 via GPIB, and there's a "File Manager" ROMPack that goes into a ROM Backpack slot to provide the code to the 4051 to drive the floppy system. The 4907 has a built in controller based on a Motorola 6800 CPU that handles the GPIB communications, running the floppy drive, and everything necessary to make the drive an intelligent peripheral. The 4907 is in nice shape...everything inside is very clean. Power supply voltages are all where they should be, with minimal ripple. The controller is a set of two boards. The bottom board, fairly large, contains the CPU, RAM, and all of the stuff for the GPIB interface and floppy drive interface. The top board, connected by a ribbon cable, appears to contain ROM that contains the 6800 code that runs the controller. Oddly, there is one chip missing in this top board, a socketed part. I don't know if it's *supposed* to be like this, or if perhaps a chip was perhaps scavenged from this position at some time. Identifying it will be a chore if it's a critical part. The RAM and ROM are all socketed, as well as a few other parts, so I made sure that all were securely in their sockets. I checked for any foreign debris on the circuit boards or elsewhere in the cabinet, and found nothing but one floppy disk write protect sticker. So, I powered it up. The device has four LEDs on the front panel. They are labeled BUSY, FAULT, FILE OPEN and CLOCK. When powered up, all the LEDs come on for a short time, then are turned off, then the CLOCK LED lights (this indicator lights to tell the user that the real-time (volatile) clock in the controller needs to be set to the date and time), then shortly (perhaps 1/2 second) thereafter, the FAULT light turns on. In reading the Operator's Manual (thank God for Bitsavers), it says that if the fault light comes on, it's an indication that there is a problem with the controller, and that if "restarting" does not clear it that the unit should be service by Tektronix factory service. Needless to say, getting Tektronix factory service to come look at this thing would be an exercise in futility. My guess is that either ROM checksum isn't passing checksum (Bad ROM? EEK, NO!!), or perhaps there's a RAM problem. Unfortunately, Bitsavers doesn't have the service manual, which would certainly make it easier to diagnose the problem. I'm looking for guidance in terms of trying to fix it. Anyone out there have a copy of the "4907 File Manager Service Manual" that they'd care to share (e.g., I'll borrow and scan and make available to Al), or scan it and send to me? I'll check the obvious...scope out the 6800 to make sure the address/data line are wiggling, and check for stuck levels on the address/data bus, but beyond that, without a Logic Analyzer or Emulator, it's going to be pretty difficult to proceed further. I'd love to get this drive working on the 4051, as it'd make it a lot easier to gather up all of the software that is on the batch of 1/4" cartridge tapes that came with the system, and then upload them somewhere, perhaps to the Bitsavers software archive. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 15 12:15:34 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 18:15:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Vintage stuff here and there In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at May 14, 9 05:59:12 pm Message-ID: [ASR33 Reader power supply] > Hi > It is a small board that is usually on the right > hand side of the printer=2C behind the line/local switch. On machines with a floor stand, it's often clipped inside the stand at the very top. > It has a power resistor=2C cap=2C molex connector ( I think > 9 pin ). I am pretty sure it's a 15 pin connector (almost all connectors in the Model 33 are 15 pin Molex 0.093" ones). There were some 3rd party versions of the Model 33 with Teletype mechanics and other electronics (the Data Synamics 390 is probably the most common one), and on those the reader PSU is totally differnt (it may even be isolated from the power line...). If you haer one of those machines all bets are off :-) If you can't get the original Teletype one, I would have thought it would be fairly easy to make one. I don't recall there being anything hard to find on that PCB, and layout is not critical. You could make it on tagstrip, for example. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 15 12:28:36 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 18:28:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tektronix 4097 GPIB 8" Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: from "Rick Bensene" at May 15, 9 09:49:12 am Message-ID: > > > Hello, all, > > I realize that this is likely a shot in the dark, but if there's any Be warned that I have (alas) nevr seen one of these units, so what i am going to say is going to be very general. But it might help > please that I might find some help, it's going to be here. There isn't > much Tektronix information out there. > > I recently received a Tektronix 4051 in very nice shape, fully > operational. Along with that, a slew of cartridge tapes, ROMPacks, two Nice find! > Joysticks, and a Tek 4907 8" Floppy Disc subsystem. The 4907 connects > to the 4051 via GPIB, and there's a "File Manager" ROMPack that goes > into a ROM Backpack slot to provide the code to the 4051 to drive the > floppy system. > > The 4907 has a built in controller based on a Motorola 6800 CPU that > handles the GPIB communications, running the floppy drive, and > everything necessary to make the drive an intelligent peripheral. > > The 4907 is in nice shape...everything inside is very clean. Power > supply voltages are all where they should be, with minimal ripple. The > controller is a set of two boards. The bottom board, fairly large, > contains the CPU, RAM, and all of the stuff for the GPIB interface and > floppy drive interface. The top board, connected by a ribbon cable, > appears to contain ROM that contains the 6800 code that runs the > controller. Oddly, there is one chip missing in this top board, a > socketed part. I don't know if it's *supposed* to be like this, or if I asusme this is likely to be a ROM chip (i.e. same number of pins as the other ROMs on this PCB). My guess (being optimistic) is that the board was made ofre sensible number of ROM chips (8, 16, etc) but fewer were actually neeeded to store the firmware (c.f early HP9815 CPU boards which have space for 8 ROM chips but only 7 are ever fitted). If you are genuinley missing a ROM, you are going to have _big_ problems. > perhaps a chip was perhaps scavenged from this position at some time. > Identifying it will be a chore if it's a critical part. > > The RAM and ROM are all socketed, as well as a few other parts, so I What sort of RAMs are used? Some older static RAM chips are noted for unreliability, and can cause 'interesting' faults. > made sure that all were securely in their sockets. I checked for any > foreign debris on the circuit boards or elsewhere in the cabinet, and > found nothing but one floppy disk write protect sticker. So, I powered > it up. The device has four LEDs on the front panel. They are labeled > BUSY, FAULT, FILE OPEN and CLOCK. When powered up, all the LEDs come > on for a short time, then are turned off, then the CLOCK LED lights Do you know if all those LEDs are controlled by the processor? Can you trace them back to an output poret. The point being that the fact they are doing something would seem to imply the processor was working, and that it was executing some code. The CLOCK LED is curious to me. I would have thought, if that is controlled by the processsor (rather htan some hardware power-fail circuit) then it would be turned on after the 'core' (ROM, RAM, CPU, etc) self-tests. which impleis those might well have passed. Oh for a schematic.. > (this indicator lights to tell the user that the real-time (volatile) > clock in the controller needs to be set to the date and time), then > shortly (perhaps 1/2 second) thereafter, the FAULT light turns on. In > reading the Operator's Manual (thank God for Bitsavers), it says that if > the fault light comes on, it's an indication that there is a problem > with the controller, and that if "restarting" does not clear it that the > unit should be service by Tektronix factory service. =20 Argh!. Such manuals annoy me. 'I am the service engineer damnit. Just tell me what the real fault is' :-) > > Needless to say, getting Tektronix factory service to come look at this > thing would be an exercise in futility. > My guess is that either ROM checksum isn't passing checksum (Bad ROM? > EEK, NO!!), or perhaps there's a RAM problem. What sort of floppy drive does it use? Is there a standard interface (like 50 pin SA800 thingy)? Does it make any attempt to, for example, restore the heads to cylinder 0? > Unfortunately, Bitsavers doesn't have the service manual, which would > certainly make it easier to diagnose the problem. I'm looking for > guidance in terms of trying to fix it. Anyone out there have a copy of > the "4907 File Manager Service Manual" that they'd care to share (e.g., > I'll borrow and scan and make available to Al), or scan it and send to > me? > > I'll check the obvious...scope out the 6800 to make sure the > address/data line are wiggling, and check for stuck levels on the Not a bad idea, but the fact it turns the fault light off and on again would seem to indicate the CPU was running. > address/data bus, but beyond that, without a Logic Analyzer or Emulator, > it's going to be pretty difficult to proceed further. I'd love to get I assume you don;t have a logic analyser. If you do, I'd trigger it on the FAULT LED turning on, and trace the code backwards from there. > this drive working on the 4051, as it'd make it a lot easier to gather > up all of the software that is on the batch of 1/4" cartridge tapes that > came with the system, and then upload them somewhere, perhaps to the > Bitsavers software archive. > > > -tony From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri May 15 13:50:59 2009 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 11:50:59 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4097 GPIB 8" Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: References: <200905151516.n4FFGml07992@h-68-165-246-86-static.mclnva23.covad.net> Message-ID: <4A0DB993.7050505@sbcglobal.net> Rick Bensene wrote: > Hello, all, > -..snip > Anyone out there have a copy of > the "4907 File Manager Service Manual" that they'd care to share (e.g., > I'll borrow and scan and make available to Al), or scan it and send to > me? > > I have the 4907 service manual at home but I won't be able to get to it until Monday. I do remember there was an unpopulated, 24 pins socket along one edge of the board so I don't think you are missing a chip. In any case, I have ten of the 4907 units themselves so if you actually have a bad ROM, I'm sure one of my units must have good ones. I owe Al some other Tektronix manuals so can get the service manual to him next week if you want. Bob From rickb at bensene.com Fri May 15 14:49:38 2009 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 12:49:38 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4097 GPIB 8" Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <4A0DB993.7050505@sbcglobal.net> References: <200905151516.n4FFGml07992@h-68-165-246-86-static.mclnva23.covad.net> <4A0DB993.7050505@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Bob R. wrote: > I have the 4907 service manual at home but I won't be able to get to it > until Monday. I do remember there was > an unpopulated, 24 pins socket along one edge of the board so I don't > think you are missing a chip. Yes, the unpopulated socket is a 24-pin, near the edge of the ROM board. It's a relief to know that the fault being reported is not due to a missing chip. > > In any case, I have ten of the 4907 units themselves so if you actually > have a bad ROM, I'm sure one of my units > must have good ones. Wow! Ten? With as huge and heavy as these things are, I can imagine that you must have a lot of storage space! > > I owe Al some other Tektronix manuals so can get the service manual to > him next week if you want. > That'd be most appreciated! I don't want to put pressure on Al, but it'd be great if the 4907 Service Manual could be on the priority list to be scanned and put on Bitsavers. Schematics and other service information would make the job much easier. Tony D. asked what type of RAM is used. It uses 18 MK4127 (Mostek) 4Kx1 Dynamic RAM chips with 150ns access time. They are all socketed. I was able to find the datasheet for the parts online. They need to be refreshed a maximum of every 2ms. I figure that if worse comes to worse, I could simply build a little circuit with the address latches (the address lines are multiplexed) to grab the address, then use fast Static RAM to replace the DRAM. Wouldn't be too tough to build, and would get rid of the reliance on DRAM. I'm willing to bet that the problem is probably with the DRAM. It would make sense that the firmware would do a quick RAM test at initialization after perhaps performing a ROM checksum test, and if either test fails, lighting the FAULT light. Tony also asked how the fault light is driven. The four LEDs are connected to the main controller board with a ribbon cable, that plugs into the controller board with a harmonica connector. It looks like the LEDs are driven by a latch that is probably driven by the 6800. So, like Tony posited, the microprocessor is probably running, and is actually detecting some fault condition that prevents it from getting through its power-on self tests. It would have been nice if the LEDs could somehow have been used to indicate the part of self test routines that was failing -- it'd at least be a good clue for troubleshooting. On another topic related to the 4051...many of the 1/4" (Tektronix-branded) cartridge tapes that came with the machine have busted drive bands. The tapes are OK, but they won't work in the 4051's drive because of the broken drive band. I've re-banded one of them ("Version 5 Loads-Of-Fun Game Tape (Binary Version") and it works good now, after I did a little o'scope-assisted tweaking of the tape head azimuth to get the signal strength a little stronger. The games tape has a lot of really neat games that appear to be derivations of various common BASIC games, but modified for use on the 4051 with its graphics capabilities. There's a fun little artillery game when you take turns trying to launch artillery shells at your opponent (or the computer). There's also a game called "Weather Wars" where you try to destroy your enemy with lightning strikes and tornados. There is a BASIC version of Chess (not graphical) that appears to be a re-write in BASIC of a minicomputer chess program (the board listing looks a lot like the Chess for the PDP/8 under OS-8). It's painfully slow to play...computer takes about 6 minutes to make its move. It'd play faster (probably about 3 times faster) on a 4052 that uses the bit slice implementation of the 6800). There's a music box program that uses 6800 machine language code (the CALL EXEC function) to manipulate the bit that drives the speaker to play music. Anyone know of a source for the drive bands in these 1/4" cartridges? I've got a stock of spare DC300 and DC600 tapes that have good drive bands, but I don't want to pillage them for drive bands to try to repair the 4051 cartridges that have broken bands. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 15 15:27:39 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 13:27:39 -0700 Subject: DC300 belts In-Reply-To: References: <200905151516.n4FFGml07992@h-68-165-246-86-static.mclnva23.covad.net> <4A0DB993.7050505@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <4A0DD03B.2010005@bitsavers.org> Rick Bensene wrote: > I don't want to put pressure on Al, but it'd be great if the 4907 > Service Manual could be on the priority list to be scanned and put on > Bitsavers. I'll see what I can do. I also have the 4924 service manual. > Anyone know of a source for the drive bands in these 1/4" cartridges? I think Chuck tried looking for new ones, and couldn't find any sources. From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 15 16:11:33 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 14:11:33 -0700 Subject: DC300 belts In-Reply-To: <4A0DD03B.2010005@bitsavers.org> References: <200905151516.n4FFGml07992@h-68-165-246-86-static.mclnva23.covad.net>, , <4A0DD03B.2010005@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4A0D7815.16762.BC14ED@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 May 2009 at 13:27, Al Kossow wrote: > I think Chuck tried looking for new ones, and couldn't find any > sources. Google for "Plastibands". Use the 4" size. Your local office supply place may stock them. They work like a charm. The smaller 2" size works for DC2000-size carts and would probably also work for the DC1000 mini-carts. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 15 16:19:58 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 14:19:58 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4097 GPIB 8" Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: References: <200905151516.n4FFGml07992@h-68-165-246-86-static.mclnva23.covad.net>, <4A0DB993.7050505@sbcglobal.net>, Message-ID: <4A0D7A0E.29111.C3C89B@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 May 2009 at 12:49, Rick Bensene wrote: > Tony D. asked what type of RAM is used. It uses 18 MK4127 (Mostek) > 4Kx1 Dynamic RAM chips with 150ns access time. If you get stuck, I believe that clones of these chips were fairly common. I think I have a bunch of the Fujitsu-branded ones, if you need them. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri May 15 16:28:21 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 15:28:21 -0600 Subject: Bitsavers PDF RSS feed (was: Tektronix 4097 GPIB 8" Floppy Drive) In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 15 May 2009 12:49:38 -0700. Message-ID: In article , "Rick Bensene" writes: > I don't want to put pressure on Al, but it'd be great if the 4907 > Service Manual could be on the priority list to be scanned and put on > Bitsavers. You can find out as soon as its on bitsavers by subscribing to this RSS feed for the bitsavers PDF: The feed is fairly active, Al does lots of scanning with his sheet feed scanner :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Fri May 15 17:45:32 2009 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 15:45:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: vt100 add ons? Message-ID: <418636.57455.qm@web56205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Does anyone have any add on boards for the VT-100 like the regis graphics board, or other upgrades for sale? Please contact of list. Cheers. From legalize at xmission.com Fri May 15 18:03:31 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 17:03:31 -0600 Subject: vt100 add ons? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 15 May 2009 15:45:32 -0700. <418636.57455.qm@web56205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <418636.57455.qm at web56205.mail.re3.yahoo.com>, silvercreekvalley writes: > Does anyone have any add on boards for the VT-100 like > the regis graphics board, or other upgrades for sale? > Please contact of list. RetroGraphics boards for VT100 have been selling for $250-300 on ebay over the past year or so. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Fri May 15 18:27:37 2009 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 16:27:37 -0700 Subject: Vintage Processors in Santa Cruz, CA? Message-ID: Has anyone ever dealt with Vintage Processors in Santa Cruz, CA? They have an EBay store at http://stores.ebay.com/Vintage-Processors I ask because some of the prices that are listed struck me as a bit 'over the top' (such as a DG Eclipse S/120 for $1000?). Just curious... Mark Davidson mdavidson1963 at gmail.com From frustum at pacbell.net Fri May 15 19:15:25 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 19:15:25 -0500 Subject: Vintage Processors in Santa Cruz, CA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A0E059D.9060302@pacbell.net> Mark Davidson wrote: > Has anyone ever dealt with Vintage Processors in Santa Cruz, CA? They > have an EBay store at http://stores.ebay.com/Vintage-Processors > > I ask because some of the prices that are listed struck me as a bit > 'over the top' (such as a DG Eclipse S/120 for $1000?). > > Just curious... > > Mark Davidson > mdavidson1963 at gmail.com > I think Bob Rosenbloom might have dealt with them before. :-) Looking at the system (ebay id 200303090120), $1000 doesn't seem out of line at all. From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Fri May 15 19:23:07 2009 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 17:23:07 -0700 Subject: Vintage Processors in Santa Cruz, CA? In-Reply-To: <4A0E059D.9060302@pacbell.net> References: <4A0E059D.9060302@pacbell.net> Message-ID: Hmmm... On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 5:15 PM, Jim Battle wrote: > Mark Davidson wrote: >> >> Has anyone ever dealt with Vintage Processors in Santa Cruz, CA? ?They >> have an EBay store at http://stores.ebay.com/Vintage-Processors >> >> I ask because some of the prices that are listed struck me as a bit >> 'over the top' (such as a DG Eclipse S/120 for $1000?). >> >> Just curious... >> >> Mark Davidson >> mdavidson1963 at gmail.com >> > > I think Bob Rosenbloom might have dealt with them before. ?:-) > > Looking at the system (ebay id 200303090120), $1000 doesn't seem out of line > at all. Maybe it's me, then... I wasn't trying to malign anyone, but I was curious about this person since they were so close to me (I'm in San Jose). Mark From frustum at pacbell.net Fri May 15 20:11:32 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 20:11:32 -0500 Subject: Vintage Processors in Santa Cruz, CA? In-Reply-To: References: <4A0E059D.9060302@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <4A0E12C4.40303@pacbell.net> Mark Davidson wrote: ... >> Looking at the system (ebay id 200303090120), $1000 doesn't seem out of line >> at all. > > Maybe it's me, then... I wasn't trying to malign anyone, but I was > curious about this person since they were so close to me (I'm in San > Jose). > > Mark I've sold 8b micros for more than $1000 (a Sol system), so getting a real mini including tape drive for $1000 doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Of course, you have to determine what it is worth to you. Personally, you'd have to pay me $1000 to take it. I don't need any more projects. From rickb at bensene.com Fri May 15 20:32:29 2009 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 18:32:29 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4097 GPIB 8" Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <4A0D7A0E.29111.C3C89B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200905151516.n4FFGml07992@h-68-165-246-86-static.mclnva23.covad.net>, <4A0DB993.7050505@sbcglobal.net>, <4A0D7A0E.29111.C3C89B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Some things developed today on this front. The UPS man came with another load of stuff from the donor of the 4051 and 4907. This batch of packages included a bunch of documentation, including -- an original copy of the 4907 Service Manual! So, the documentation problem is solved. So, I spent some time reading through it. It says that the most common cause of the FAULT light being on is a RAM failure. Unfortunately, to diagnose it, a special fixture is required, which is essentially a front panel for the system, including address and data toggle switches, examine/deposit/start, stop, reset, and various other controls, as well as LEDs for display of the address and data busses. Finding one of these is probably pretty unlikely, at least in a timely fashion. Building one would be a bit time consuming. I don't have a logic analyzer, so trying to track down DRAM failures with just a scope would be tedious. Thus, I'm more prone to doing some component substation to see if I can just eliminate the cause. With the service manual saying that that the FAULT light being on is most likely indicating a RAM problem, I started looking at the datasheet for the MK4027 chips used in the 4907. I don't have any of these (or equivalents) on hand, but I then looked at the datasheet for the MK4116 (a 16K x 1 DRAM), which, I happen to have a bunch of. The only difference between the two devices is that the MK4116 replaces Pin 13 (~CS) on the MK4027 with A6. All of the other pinouts are identical, and the voltages and general timing specifications are the same between the two chips. What I'm wondering is if I could just pull all of the MK4027's and replace them with MK4116's. In the schematic for the RAM section of the 4907 controller shows the ~CS pin on all of the MK4027's is wired to ground. This would have the effect, with a 4116 plugged in place of the 4027, of forcing the A6 address line 0 at all times, which, if my brain is working properly (there are days when I wonder), should not have any effect on the 4116's ability to serve as a replacement for the 4027s. Any thoughts or guidance? It might be a quick solution to the problem without having to find replacement 4027s. Of course, this all assumes that the support logic around the DRAMS (refresh, address multiplexing, parity generation & detection, etc.) is all operating properly, which also could be the cause of the problem. Thanks to all who have responded. -Rick From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Fri May 15 20:46:31 2009 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 18:46:31 -0700 Subject: Vintage Processors in Santa Cruz, CA? In-Reply-To: <4A0E12C4.40303@pacbell.net> References: <4A0E059D.9060302@pacbell.net> <4A0E12C4.40303@pacbell.net> Message-ID: Jim--- On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 6:11 PM, Jim Battle wrote: > Mark Davidson wrote: > ... >>> >>> Looking at the system (ebay id 200303090120), $1000 doesn't seem out of >>> line >>> at all. >> >> Maybe it's me, then... I wasn't trying to malign anyone, but I was >> curious about this person since they were so close to me (I'm in San >> Jose). >> >> Mark > > I've sold 8b micros for more than $1000 (a Sol system), so getting a real > mini including tape drive for $1000 doesn't seem unreasonable to me. No, no, I understand... I just am amazed at some of the prices people put on "vintage" computer equipment. My favorite (not seen on this list) was the guy who found an old disk pack in a warehouse and listed it for $500 (no testing, no idea if it was even good, sold as-is). > Of course, you have to determine what it is worth to you. ?Personally, you'd > have to pay me $1000 to take it. ?I don't need any more projects. Heh. I know what you mean. I love old DG minis, though. My summer project is an MV/4000 I bought for $300 with two tape drives (and that included the delivery). I guess I was just lucky. :) I had a deal to buy a Nova 4 with drives from a guy in SoCal... agreed on a price and even supplied a deposit. But before I could arrange to go get it, he returned my deposit (with a note saying "item sold") and never bothered to respond to any future emails. Mark Mark From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri May 15 22:06:45 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 20:06:45 -0700 Subject: Vintage stuff here and there In-Reply-To: References: from "dwight elvey" at May 14, 9 05:59:12 pm Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > Subject: Re: Vintage stuff here and there > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 18:15:34 +0100 > > [ASR33 Reader power supply] >> Hi >> It is a small board that is usually on the right >> hand side of the printer=2C behind the line/local switch. > > On machines with a floor stand, it's often clipped inside the stand at > the very top. > >> It has a power resistor=2C cap=2C molex connector ( I think >> 9 pin ). > > I am pretty sure it's a 15 pin connector (almost all connectors in the > Model 33 are 15 pin Molex 0.093" ones). There were some 3rd party > versions of the Model 33 with Teletype mechanics and other electronics > (the Data Synamics 390 is probably the most common one), and on those the > reader PSU is totally differnt (it may even be isolated from the power > line...). If you haer one of those machines all bets are off :-) > > If you can't get the original Teletype one, I would have thought it would > be fairly easy to make one. I don't recall there being anything hard to > find on that PCB, and layout is not critical. You could make it on > tagstrip, for example. > > -tony Hi Tony I have one I made, I just want an original one. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_BR_life_in_synch_052009 From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri May 15 22:27:17 2009 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 23:27:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 68000 coprocessor board In-Reply-To: <4A0D7815.16762.BC14ED@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200905151516.n4FFGml07992@h-68-165-246-86-static.mclnva23.covad.net>, , <4A0DD03B.2010005@bitsavers.org> <4A0D7815.16762.BC14ED@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: I'm trying to find some documentation for an HSC C016 processor board, which came with an IMSAI 8080 I acquired. It has a Motorola 68000 8MHz processor, and connects to a Cromemco ZPU board in the IMSAI via a small daughterboard which plugs in underneath the Z80A. I have a 8" disk for it which has CP/M 68K and some software for switching back and forth between processors (apparently). http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/IMSAI/HSC68K-H.jpg http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/IMSAI/HSCDaughter-L.jpg I've been able to find only a few references to this board, and no documentation. Does anyone here have experience with this setup, or know where to find docs? Thanks. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 15 22:37:06 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 23:37:06 -0400 Subject: 68000 coprocessor board In-Reply-To: References: <200905151516.n4FFGml07992@h-68-165-246-86-static.mclnva23.covad.net> <4A0DD03B.2010005@bitsavers.org> <4A0D7815.16762.BC14ED@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 11:27 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > > ? I'm trying to find some documentation for an HSC C016 processor board, > which came with an IMSAI 8080 I acquired. ?It has a Motorola 68000 8MHz > processor, and connects to a Cromemco ZPU board in the IMSAI via a small > daughterboard which plugs in underneath the Z80A... > > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/IMSAI/HSC68K-H.jpg > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/IMSAI/HSCDaughter-L.jpg Nice board. > ? I've been able to find only a few references to this board, and no > documentation. ?Does anyone here have experience with this setup, or know > where to find docs? ?Thanks. I have no information and no docs on this board, but I know a bit about the 68000. The daughter card should be easy enough to untangle - it's just an address comparator, a couple of buffers and the off-board connectors. If I had that rig, the first thing I'd do is to draw a schematic of the daughter card at least, to understand how data gets off the ZPU. -ethan From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri May 15 23:00:03 2009 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 23:00:03 -0500 Subject: Vintage Processors in Santa Cruz, CA? References: <4A0E059D.9060302@pacbell.net><4A0E12C4.40303@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <015a01c9d5da$caedaad0$c900a8c0@JWEST> it was written... --------------- I had a deal to buy a Nova 4 with drives from a guy in SoCal... agreed on a price and even supplied a deposit. But before I could arrange to go get it, he returned my deposit (with a note saying "item sold") and never bothered to respond to any future emails. ---------------- Obviously, someone offered him the $1000 it was worth (to them) ;) Jay From rickb at bensene.com Fri May 15 23:08:57 2009 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 21:08:57 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4097 GPIB 8" Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: References: <200905151516.n4FFGml07992@h-68-165-246-86-static.mclnva23.covad.net>, <4A0DB993.7050505@sbcglobal.net>, <4A0D7A0E.29111.C3C89B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: One more follow up: I went ahead and pulled out the MK4027's on the Tektronix 4907 controller board and replaced them with MK4116's. Both were -3, 200ns parts. After double checking everything, I powered it up. This time -- no FAULT light. The "CLOCK" light was on, which indicates that the real-time clock in the controller needs to be set with the date and time. I powered the 4907 off, connected up the GPIB cable from the 4051, powered up the 4907, then the 4051, and typed CALL "SETTIME","05-14-09 19:18:00", and pressed RETURN, and the CLOCK light went out, and the 4051 was waiting for another command. I then did a MOUNT comment, and the drive loaded, the BUSY light flashed, and after a second or so, the 4051 was ready for another command. I then did a "DIR", and out came a listing of a bunch of files that were on the floppy. Looks like the 4116's are working perfectly, as is the rest of the 4907. Thanks to all for your encouragement and comments. Rick Bensene From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Fri May 15 23:14:54 2009 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 21:14:54 -0700 Subject: Vintage Processors in Santa Cruz, CA? In-Reply-To: <015a01c9d5da$caedaad0$c900a8c0@JWEST> References: <4A0E059D.9060302@pacbell.net> <4A0E12C4.40303@pacbell.net> <015a01c9d5da$caedaad0$c900a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 9:00 PM, Jay West wrote: > it was written... > --------------- > I had a deal to buy a Nova 4 with drives from a guy in SoCal... agreed > on a price and even supplied a deposit. ?But before I could arrange to > go get it, he returned my deposit (with a note saying "item sold") and > never bothered to respond to any future emails. > ---------------- > > Obviously, someone offered him the $1000 it was worth (to them) ;) > > Jay Oh, I agree... and I hope they enjoy the hell out of it (I *love* old DG minis). I was just kind of annoyed when he backed out of the deal without warning. Mark From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri May 15 23:28:49 2009 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 21:28:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage Processors in Santa Cruz, CA? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <555059.54767.qm@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 5/15/09, Mark Davidson wrote: From: Mark Davidson Subject: Re: Vintage Processors in Santa Cruz, CA? To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Friday, May 15, 2009, 6:46 PM Jim--- On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 6:11 PM, Jim Battle wrote: > Mark Davidson wrote: > ... >>> >>> Looking at the system (ebay id 200303090120), $1000 doesn't seem out of >>> line >>> at all. >> >> Maybe it's me, then... I wasn't trying to malign anyone, but I was >> curious about this person since they were so close to me (I'm in San >> Jose). >> >> Mark > > I've sold 8b micros for more than $1000 (a Sol system), so getting a real > mini including tape drive for $1000 doesn't seem unreasonable to me. No, no, I understand... I just am amazed at some of the prices people put on "vintage" computer equipment. My favorite (not seen on this list) was the guy who found an old disk pack in a warehouse and listed it for $500 (no testing, no idea if it was even good, sold as-is). > Of course, you have to determine what it is worth to you. ?Personally, you'd > have to pay me $1000 to take it. ?I don't need any more projects. Heh. I know what you mean. I love old DG minis, though. My summer project is an MV/4000 I bought for $300 with two tape drives (and that included the delivery). I guess I was just lucky. :) I had a deal to buy a Nova 4 with drives from a guy in SoCal... agreed on a price and even supplied a deposit. But before I could arrange to go get it, he returned my deposit (with a note saying "item sold") and never bothered to respond to any future emails. Mark I am the one that has the S/120 listed on ebay. Quite often I list stuff in my store at a high price to see what happens. It cost very little to list in the store format. I sold an Eclipse MV7800 for $1000 earlier and a Teletype model 35 for $1200 that was not even complete. I find it's a good way to sell items that I'm never going to get around to playing with. They do take a long time to sell though. Most have been in the store for more than a year before selling. Also, I get interesting offers of things to trade through the ebay ads. Ebay reaches a far wider audience than any other method I know of. Now if someone really wants the S/120, I'm willing to trade for something interesting that's smaller and lighter! Bob From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri May 15 23:40:10 2009 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 23:40:10 -0500 Subject: Vintage Processors in Santa Cruz, CA? References: <4A0E059D.9060302@pacbell.net><4A0E12C4.40303@pacbell.net><015a01c9d5da$caedaad0$c900a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <018401c9d5e0$65a3e440$c900a8c0@JWEST> Mark wrote.... --------------------- Oh, I agree... and I hope they enjoy the hell out of it (I *love* old DG minis). --------------------- I get the impression you like old DG minis :) Me too. I have a storage facility full of 800's & 1200's (and peripherals). I also have two S/130's an S/120, and a Nova 4. Some of those will become available after picking the pieces & parts I want for final systems. But what I am looking to trade for is a good working 6045 drive.... I only have one and it's not in running shape yet. Jay From spectre at floodgap.com Fri May 15 23:37:32 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 21:37:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage Processors in Santa Cruz, CA? In-Reply-To: <555059.54767.qm@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> from Bob Rosenbloom at "May 15, 9 09:28:49 pm" Message-ID: <200905160437.n4G4bWZj011448@floodgap.com> > I am the one that has the S/120 listed on ebay. Quite often I list stuff > in my store at a high price to see what happens. It cost very little to list > in the store format. I sold an Eclipse MV7800 for $1000 earlier and a Teletype > model 35 for $1200 that was not even complete. I find it's a good way to sell > items that I'm never going to get around to playing with. They do take a long > time to sell though. Most have been in the store for more than a year before > selling. I have personally had the pleasure of seeing Bob's collection and they're in great shape. Bob, I promise to come get that AM box the next time. There will be room in my back seat! -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I adore my Commodore 64" -------------------------------------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Fri May 15 23:54:06 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 21:54:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: marginal OT: Mozilla for Mac OS 9 Message-ID: <200905160454.n4G4s6Ej017420@floodgap.com> This is marginally off-topic, but I'd like to hear from anyone who was building Mozilla for Mac OS 9 back in the day successfully -- I have a few questions for you. They can be off list to avoid topic drift if you like. Thanks :) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Point to ponder: without sponges, how much deeper would the ocean be? ------ From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri May 15 23:54:14 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 21:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage Processors in Santa Cruz, CA? In-Reply-To: References: <4A0E059D.9060302@pacbell.net> <4A0E12C4.40303@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 May 2009, Mark Davidson wrote: > I had a deal to buy a Nova 4 with drives from a guy in SoCal... agreed > on a price and even supplied a deposit. But before I could arrange to > go get it, he returned my deposit (with a note saying "item sold") and > never bothered to respond to any future emails. You had me scared for a moment because I brokered the sale of Nova 4 from a guy in SoCal a couple years ago. Then I remembered nobody sent me a deposit of any sort. Hey Mister You-know-who-you-are, how about telling us what you've done with that machine? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From hachti at hachti.de Sat May 16 00:03:27 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 07:03:27 +0200 Subject: The ASR33 Basement.... In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Thu, 14 May 2009 10:28:24 +0200. <4A0BD628.3070700@hachti.de> <4A0C64F7.6050304@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4A0E491F.3000203@hachti.de> Hi, I just went to my basement. There are three partially dismantled ASR33 units sitting in the shelves. They can safely be considered as spares source. All three units are without floor stand (I don't know where the floor stands are). These are the spares I actually have (and even more, I assume): * 1 PTR PSU board * 1 DEC mod * 2 intact cases (without hat) * 1 fairly intact (and de-yellowed, was my retr0bright test part) yellow hat * 2 typing cylinders * 2-3 knobs * 1-2 handles * 2 aluminium face plates * many screws * most other pieces you can find on three machines. Some parts already missing. I have to review my "normal" 33ASRs to see if I need the PTR PSU elsewhere because I think I'm missing the PTR PSU on at least one other machine. I further have to investigate if I could use one of the cases on another unit (One of my units is brand new and unused, still with the bottom cardboard stuff attached, but the case is badly broken). If you have any other wishes, let me know and I'll look after the pieces during the next two weeks. My basement is 180km from my collection...just to explain... Best wishes, Philipp :-) -- http://www.hachti.de From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Sat May 16 00:14:42 2009 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 22:14:42 -0700 Subject: Vintage Processors in Santa Cruz, CA? In-Reply-To: <018401c9d5e0$65a3e440$c900a8c0@JWEST> References: <4A0E059D.9060302@pacbell.net> <4A0E12C4.40303@pacbell.net> <015a01c9d5da$caedaad0$c900a8c0@JWEST> <018401c9d5e0$65a3e440$c900a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: Jay--- On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 9:40 PM, Jay West wrote: > Mark wrote.... > --------------------- > Oh, I agree... and I hope they enjoy the hell out of it (I *love* old > DG minis). > --------------------- > > I get the impression you like old DG minis :) Me too. I have a storage > facility full of 800's & 1200's (and peripherals). I also have two S/130's > an S/120, and a Nova 4. Some of those will become available after picking > the pieces & parts I want for final systems. But what I am looking to trade > for is a good working 6045 drive.... I only have one and it's not in running > shape yet. Heh, it's that obvious, is it? :) You have lots more than I do. I have an MV/4000 out in the garage that's my summer project. I have managed to obtain boot tapes with AOS/VS so I can reinstall everything (the contents of the hard drive are unknown). I learned to program on a Nova 820 and spent many years earning money helping several local doctor's offices upgrade and maintain their Nova 3s. When the opportunity came up to get this MV/4000, I jumped on it. Let me know when you have systems available... I'll certainly be interested! Mark From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Sat May 16 00:24:43 2009 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 22:24:43 -0700 Subject: Vintage Processors in Santa Cruz, CA? In-Reply-To: References: <4A0E059D.9060302@pacbell.net> <4A0E12C4.40303@pacbell.net> Message-ID: David--- On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 9:54 PM, David Griffith wrote: > On Fri, 15 May 2009, Mark Davidson wrote: > >> I had a deal to buy a Nova 4 with drives from a guy in SoCal... agreed >> on a price and even supplied a deposit. ?But before I could arrange to >> go get it, he returned my deposit (with a note saying "item sold") and >> never bothered to respond to any future emails. > > You had me scared for a moment because I brokered the sale of Nova 4 from a > guy in SoCal a couple years ago. ?Then I remembered nobody sent me a deposit > of any sort. > > Hey Mister You-know-who-you-are, how about telling us what you've done with > that machine? This person (I won't name him on the list) had a Nova 4 in Irvine, and he was looking for "best offers" on the machine by the end of April. I asked him what he wanted and wanted to try and beat the best offer... I made a counteroffer to what he wanted, he agreed and I sent him a deposit. I didn't hear from him after that for a few days, and he finally replied and said he had been out of town on business. After another few days, my deposit was returned and that's the last I heard. I can't really argue that he has the right to the best offer, but I just wish he had given me a chance to meet or beat the new offer. But, as I said, I just hope the machine went to a good home. Mark From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Sat May 16 00:26:46 2009 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 22:26:46 -0700 Subject: Vintage Processors in Santa Cruz, CA? In-Reply-To: <555059.54767.qm@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <555059.54767.qm@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Bob--- On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 9:28 PM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > > > I am the one that has the S/120 listed on ebay. Quite often I list stuff > in my store at a high price to see what happens. It cost very little to list > in the store format. I sold an Eclipse MV7800 for $1000 earlier and a Teletype > model 35 for $1200 that was not even complete. I find it's a good way to sell > items that I'm never going to get around to playing with. They do take a long > time to sell though. Most have been in the store for more than a year before > selling. > > Also, I get interesting offers of things to trade through the ebay ads. Ebay reaches > a far wider audience than any other method I know of. > > Now if someone really wants the S/120, I'm willing to trade for something interesting > that's smaller and lighter! We definitely need to talk! I'll send you a note off the list. Mark From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat May 16 00:30:48 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 22:30:48 -0700 Subject: marginal OT: Mozilla for Mac OS 9 In-Reply-To: <200905160454.n4G4s6Ej017420@floodgap.com> References: <200905160454.n4G4s6Ej017420@floodgap.com> Message-ID: At 9:54 PM -0700 5/15/09, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >This is marginally off-topic, but I'd like to hear from anyone who was >building Mozilla for Mac OS 9 back in the day successfully -- I have a few >questions for you. They can be off list to avoid topic drift if you like. >Thanks :) Inquiring minds want to know why you ask! :-) Though realistically if I get an older Mac up and running something pre-OSX, it will probably be my G4/450 AGP running Mac OS 8.6/G4. Which reminds me, I should consider a place for my G4/450 when planning out my new home office... Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From spectre at floodgap.com Sat May 16 00:38:10 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 22:38:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: marginal OT: Mozilla for Mac OS 9 In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "May 15, 9 10:30:48 pm" Message-ID: <200905160538.n4G5cA4d016186@floodgap.com> > > This is marginally off-topic, but I'd like to hear from anyone who was > > building Mozilla for Mac OS 9 back in the day successfully -- I have a few > > questions for you. They can be off list to avoid topic drift if you like. > > Thanks :) > > Inquiring minds want to know why you ask! :-) I'm retreating into the old Classic world. With Leopard and Snow Leopard, I've felt less and less at home in OS X (all of my current Macs run Tiger except for the token Intel mini). Recently I picked up a TiBook 867 and have really enjoyed going back into the past; even wired up a wireless game adapter to run off the FireWire power so it can talk to WPA networks, and I've now switched back to OS 9 as my primary laptop. (My desktop is still Tiger.) However, I'd like to fix some of the more obvious security holes and layout glitches in WaMCoM which is the most recent of the Mozilla browsers (ca. 2003). The problem is that the build system is very Rube Goldbergian and it's generating defective stub libraries. So, if anyone has any insights into that, I'd love to pick their brain a bit. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- ASK ME ABOUT MY VOW OF SILENCE!!!! ----------------------------------------- From bqt at softjar.se Thu May 14 14:23:42 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 21:23:42 +0200 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A0C6FBE.607@softjar.se> Charles H Dickman wrote: > Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> > Hi Charles, >> > >>> >> The OS8 Handbook and the documents you mentioned have about all the >>> >> information you should need. >> > But.. I asked here because it's not always easy to actually FIND the >> > information needed. >> > By the way I did not yet find out how to rebuild OS/8 from scratch >> > (including reassembly). >> > >> > Philipp >> > > I don't think that I understood the source of your troubles. I think > that the basic problem is that most of the OS/8 system did its own > thing with the console. There is no getting around that. True, and which I pointed out already at the start of this thread. :-) > I suspect that it is impossible to rebuild OS/8 today. I would be > surprised if OS/8 was actually maintained on a PDP-8. All of the > diagnostic listing, for example, were generated using PAL10 on a PDP-10. I very much suspect you're wrong. I also happen to know that atleast some of the software was definitely written and maintained on a PDP-8. The reason being that the code was converted from PAL-8 to MACREL... And that compiler isn't totally compatible with PAL-8, even through it's a superset. And MACREL don't even exist on a PDP-10. Talk with Charles Lasner about it, if you want to hear a really long comment about the stupidity of DEC, and the problems it caused (sliding towards OS/78 and OS/278 here). > I have tried to find a coherent set of binaries and this can be > difficult too. SET is especially problematical because it requires > intimate knowledge of the handler it is going to patch. I have the > opinion that the the suggestions about using SET to change things in the > KL8-E hander are a red herring, they were probably never added to SET. SET is definitely a red herring. If nothing else, than just for the fact that the TTY: driver isn't enough by far for this problem. DEC's solution was the KL8-JA, which did this in hardware. That made it work for all occasions, no matter what software, driver or OS you used. Another solution would be to use the terminal under MULTOS, or something similar, since then you actually have a device driver in the bottom, which you can fix this in. (And then it will work for OS/8 as well, although at a slight performance penalty sometimes.) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From chrise at pobox.com Thu May 14 06:10:40 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 06:10:40 -0500 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? In-Reply-To: <4A0B6E1F.9020804@hachti.de> References: <49FC8B73.4060605@softjar.se> <49FF9330.4060903@nktelco.net> <4A0A4F55.2000108@hachti.de> <4A0B45BD.2050809@nktelco.net> <4A0B6E1F.9020804@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20090514111040.GI10897@n0jcf.net> I may have missed some facts earlier in this thread-- but does the system obey hardware flow control such as CTS? ie, if CTS is low, will it be blocked from transmitting? If that is obeyed by all of your OS and software, then it is not hard to build a microcontroller that would sit between the system and the terminal, adding the delays you need on while buffering for and hardware flow controlling back toward the PDP-8. Chris On Thursday (05/14/2009 at 03:04AM +0200), Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi, > >> I completely mis-understood the source of your troubles. > Oh. > The VT05 terminal operates at speeds from 110 baud to 2400 baud, > selectable with a rotary switch in the back (my unit is currently missing > a counter ic to generate 110baud, but...). > So far so good. The problem is, that when you want to operate the VT05 at > speeds higher than 300 baud, you have to wait a certain amount of time > after a line feed character or cursor positioning command. This is > usually done by inserting zero fill characters (4 at 2400 baud) after the > critical commands. If you don't obey this rule, the VT05 has not > completed changing the line when you send the next character. This is a > bit like a too slow cr on a teletype - funny but true. > So my wish was to modify OS/8 so far that it generates those fill characters. > The TTY: handler is also capable of correctly doing this for me. But many > other programs - as the OS/8 keyboard monitor itself - use direct IO > commands to read from and write to the terminal. > So one would have to patch many programs. In case of the keyboard > monitor, I don't know if there is any room left to put such a code in. > And I don't know how to reassemble and correctly install a new keyboard > monitor from scratch. > So all I can do is to run the VT05 at 300 baud. Or get the advances > serial interface (see other posting). > Did this illustrate the problem? > > Best wishes, > Philipp :-) > > > > -- > http://www.hachti.de -- Chris Elmquist From julianskidmore at yahoo.com Thu May 14 16:51:11 2009 From: julianskidmore at yahoo.com (Julian Skidmore) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 14:51:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC ST506 Interface Adapter Part No 54-17003-01 Message-ID: <350517.5709.qm@web37101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > I thought it could only format "known" disk types, not arbitrary disks > (a firmware limitation in the formatter application, not a hardware > limitation). Surely, it's possible to hack an RQDX3 controller's ROM to support arbitrary geometries? I have an old ST506 MFM drive hanging around here I keep toying with using. Does someone have a listing for the ROM? -cheers from Julz @p From rick at rickmurphy.net Thu May 14 19:25:22 2009 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 20:25:22 -0400 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? In-Reply-To: <4A0B6E1F.9020804@hachti.de> References: <49FC8B73.4060605@softjar.se> <49FF9330.4060903@nktelco.net> <4A0A4F55.2000108@hachti.de> <4A0B45BD.2050809@nktelco.net> <4A0B6E1F.9020804@hachti.de> Message-ID: <200905150025.n4F0PMFi007440@rickmurphy.net> At 09:04 PM 5/13/2009, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >Hi, > >>I completely mis-understood the source of your troubles. >Oh. >The VT05 terminal operates at speeds from 110 baud to 2400 baud, >selectable with a rotary switch in the back (my unit is currently >missing a counter ic to generate 110baud, but...). >So far so good. The problem is, that when you want to operate the VT05 >at speeds higher than 300 baud, you have to wait a certain amount of >time after a line feed character or cursor positioning command. This >is usually done by inserting zero fill characters (4 at 2400 baud) >after the critical commands. If you don't obey this rule, the VT05 has >not completed changing the line when you send the next character. This >is a bit like a too slow cr on a teletype - funny but true. >So my wish was to modify OS/8 so far that it generates those fill >characters. As I said earlier, this is easier said than done. However, it's possible if you've got source and the time. Fitting something that does the job into the CD and KBM is hard given how tight this code is. >The TTY: handler is also capable of correctly doing this for me. But >many other programs - as the OS/8 keyboard monitor itself - use direct >IO commands to read from and write to the terminal. >So one would have to patch many programs. In case of the keyboard >monitor, I don't know if there is any room left to put such a code in. >And I don't know how to reassemble and correctly install a new >keyboard monitor from scratch. Assemble? Just use PAL to assemble KBM and CD, then use the BUILD program to load it. You load the new KBM and CD .BN files using the BUILD command (within BUILD). It'll prompt you for the location for the OS8.BN and CD.BN files. Unfortunately, using BUILD will zero the directory on the target device, so you had better be sure that's what you want to do. :-) -Rick From LWhetton at usbr.gov Fri May 15 15:51:46 2009 From: LWhetton at usbr.gov (Whetton, Linda A) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 14:51:46 -0600 Subject: Northgate OmniKey Ultra Message-ID: What are you selling it for? Linda Whetton Environmental Resources Division 125 S. State Street, Room 6107 Salt Lake City UT 84138-1147 Tel: 801-524-3880 Fax: 801-524-3858 EM: lwhetton at usbr.gov From dragonsdied20 at gmail.com Fri May 15 18:24:31 2009 From: dragonsdied20 at gmail.com (Abe D.) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 19:24:31 -0400 Subject: ZENITH EASY PC Message-ID: <1f5059530905151624t202f568ah344bb32b0a2aa583@mail.gmail.com> Dear Jean Allread, I saw your post about a zenith easy PC and i, always have wanted to have an "old fashioned" computer thought that this was my chance! I would enjoy owning the Zenith Easy PC and would take constant care of it. I would like to hear back from you. Sincerely, Abe Dickinson From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Fri May 15 19:35:23 2009 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 20:35:23 -0400 Subject: WTB - VAX 4000 tape sled / bracket References: <4044223926699016881@unknownmsgid><4A0C6D57.10208@verizon.net> Message-ID: <001101c9d5be$32f4db20$6501a8c0@HP24150918428> I recently aquired a couple of VAX 4000-705a's from a recycler and am looking for: TK70 or TK85 Tape bracketing, sleds and one faceplate I have several drive rail sets for a BA213 to trade or would be willing to buy. -Dan Snyder view my stuff at http://picasaweb.google.com/DanielDSnyder From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Sat May 16 06:40:42 2009 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 07:40:42 -0400 Subject: WTB - VAX 4000 tape sled / bracket Message-ID: <000301c9d61b$249e6070$6501a8c0@HP24150918428> I recently aquired a couple of VAX 4000-705a's from a recycler and am looking for: TK70 or TK85 Tape bracketing, sleds and one faceplate I have several drive rail sets for a BA213 to trade or would be willing to buy. Dan Snyder view my stuff at http://picasaweb.google.com/DanielDSnyder From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat May 16 07:37:00 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 08:37:00 -0400 Subject: DEC ST506 Interface Adapter Part No 54-17003-01 In-Reply-To: <4A0C6D57.10208@verizon.net> References: <4044223926699016881@unknownmsgid> <4A0C6D57.10208@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B3DD6EA-69AA-4837-A49A-BC72A5314333@neurotica.com> On May 14, 2009, at 3:13 PM, Allison wrote: > The VS2000 can also format ANY MFM disk with to RQDX3 format for > use with with that board. it has a diagnostic monitor page that > does this. Anyone working with DEC hardware > will find that feature alone useful. Yes, but the VS2000 and RQDX3, if memory serves, use different interleave factors. I'm pretty sure the VS2000 formats at 2:1 (or is it 3:1?) while the RQDX3 is capable of handling 1:1. This will reduce data transfer rates on the RQDX3. (which needs all the help it can get) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat May 16 07:38:10 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 08:38:10 -0400 Subject: DEC ST506 Interface Adapter Part No 54-17003-01 In-Reply-To: References: <4044223926699016881@unknownmsgid> <4A0C6D57.10208@verizon.net> Message-ID: On May 14, 2009, at 4:34 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> the Box was expanable to a second similar sized on to add either >> TK50 using >> the sasi (sorta scsi) bus... > > Is it _really_ SASI? ISTR there's a 5380 chip in there, but I could > be thinking of the TK50Z-FA board. I did once download and burn a set > of EPROMs to try to boot a (slow) SCSI disk in the MV2000, but I don't > think I ever got as far as loading a disk. I have a 200MB 3.5" > Embedded SCSI drive ready to drop into a machine if I ever get a > chance to pick that project back up. I know the interface won't be > fast, but it would allow me to use more modern disks, and that's > really, really handy, no matter how slow. There is indeed a 5380 in the MV/VS2000. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat May 16 09:15:32 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 10:15:32 -0400 Subject: 68000 coprocessor board In-Reply-To: References: <200905151516.n4FFGml07992@h-68-165-246-86-static.mclnva23.covad.net>, , <4A0DD03B.2010005@bitsavers.org> <4A0D7815.16762.BC14ED@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <54EB902F-07E2-43A5-9A42-1F4C3D4FD1B7@neurotica.com> On May 15, 2009, at 11:27 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > I'm trying to find some documentation for an HSC C016 processor > board, which came with an IMSAI 8080 I acquired. It has a Motorola > 68000 8MHz processor, and connects to a Cromemco ZPU board in the > IMSAI via a small daughterboard which plugs in underneath the > Z80A. I have a 8" disk for it which has CP/M 68K and some software > for switching back and forth between processors (apparently). > > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/IMSAI/HSC68K-H.jpg > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/IMSAI/HSCDaughter-L.jpg > > I've been able to find only a few references to this board, and > no documentation. Does anyone here have experience with this > setup, or know where to find docs? Thanks. I know nothing about it, but the description made me drool all over my shirt. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat May 16 09:46:43 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 15:46:43 +0100 Subject: DEC ST506 Interface Adapter Part No 54-17003-01 In-Reply-To: <4B3DD6EA-69AA-4837-A49A-BC72A5314333@neurotica.com> References: <4044223926699016881@unknownmsgid> <4A0C6D57.10208@verizon.net> <4B3DD6EA-69AA-4837-A49A-BC72A5314333@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A0ED1D3.6070102@dunnington.plus.com> On 16/05/2009 13:37, Dave McGuire wrote: > Yes, but the VS2000 and RQDX3, if memory serves, use different > interleave factors. I'm pretty sure the VS2000 formats at 2:1 (or is it > 3:1?) while the RQDX3 is capable of handling 1:1. This will reduce data > transfer rates on the RQDX3. (which needs all the help it can get) RQDX1 and RQDX2 certainly use 3:1, I don't know about VS2000 but it might be the same. RQDX3 does indeed use 1:1. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat May 16 10:05:08 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 16:05:08 +0100 Subject: DEC ST506 Interface Adapter Part No 54-17003-01 In-Reply-To: <350517.5709.qm@web37101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <350517.5709.qm@web37101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A0ED624.2060208@dunnington.plus.com> On 14/05/2009 22:51, Julian Skidmore wrote: > >> I thought it could only format "known" disk types, not arbitrary disks >> (a firmware limitation in the formatter application, not a hardware >> limitation). > > Surely, it's possible to hack an RQDX3 controller's ROM to support arbitrary geometries? I have an old ST506 MFM drive hanging around here I keep toying with using. Does someone have a listing for the ROM? The geometry information isn't in the controller ROM, it's in the formatter software. In the PDP-11 version, it's in tables in the ZRQC??.BIN diagnostics program that runs under XXDP. The tables have space for eight entries. I don't know about the version in microVaxen, which may be in firmware. The data isn't just drive geometry, though. There's lots of other formatting information in the tables, some of which is hard to work out, things like the encoded drive type, interleave factors, head-to-head skew, cylinder-to-cylinder skew, gap sizes, step times, replacement and cacheing control tables, location of spare tracks and blocks, location of disgnostics blocks, track and block groupings, that are written to the disk. Something like 40 words per table, IIRC. I worked most out 18 years ago for some Rodime disks but I can't find all the notes I made. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From chris at mainecoon.com Sat May 16 10:17:10 2009 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 08:17:10 -0700 Subject: S/120 prom images (was Re: Vintage Processors in Santa Cruz, CA?) In-Reply-To: References: <555059.54767.qm@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A0ED8F6.6080704@mainecoon.com> With the recent talk of DG gear it's time for my periodic "If someone has a S/120 can would make prom images I'd be more than grateful" plea. I'm long Nova 4s so turning one of them into a S/120 would have utility. Chris (Whose 840 is currently in bits to install hardware floating point) -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat May 16 10:22:20 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 11:22:20 -0400 Subject: DEC ST506 Interface Adapter Part No 54-17003-01 In-Reply-To: <4A0ED1D3.6070102@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4044223926699016881@unknownmsgid> <4A0C6D57.10208@verizon.net> <4B3DD6EA-69AA-4837-A49A-BC72A5314333@neurotica.com> <4A0ED1D3.6070102@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On May 16, 2009, at 10:46 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> Yes, but the VS2000 and RQDX3, if memory serves, use different >> interleave factors. I'm pretty sure the VS2000 formats at 2:1 (or >> is it 3:1?) while the RQDX3 is capable of handling 1:1. This will >> reduce data transfer rates on the RQDX3. (which needs all the help >> it can get) > > RQDX1 and RQDX2 certainly use 3:1, I don't know about VS2000 but it > might be the same. RQDX3 does indeed use 1:1. Yup. I believe the VS2000 uses 2:1, bit it might be 3:1. I'm fairly certain that it's not 1:1. That said, though, I've never actually benchmarked a RQDX3- formatted drive against a VS2000-formatted drive plugged into an RQDX3. I'm assuming the bottleneck will be the rotational latency (and thus would be affected by interleaving) but there may be a tighter bottleneck elsewhere. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat May 16 10:26:19 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 16:26:19 +0100 Subject: 68000 coprocessor board In-Reply-To: References: <200905151516.n4FFGml07992@h-68-165-246-86-static.mclnva23.covad.net> , , <4A0DD03B.2010005@bitsavers.org> <4A0D7815.16762.BC14ED@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1242487579.3985.18.camel@elric> On Fri, 2009-05-15 at 23:27 -0400, Mike Loewen wrote: > I'm trying to find some documentation for an HSC C016 processor board, > which came with an IMSAI 8080 I acquired. It has a Motorola 68000 8MHz > processor, and connects to a Cromemco ZPU board in the IMSAI via a small > daughterboard which plugs in underneath the Z80A. I have a 8" disk for it > which has CP/M 68K and some software for switching back and forth between > processors (apparently). > > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/IMSAI/HSC68K-H.jpg > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/IMSAI/HSCDaughter-L.jpg > > I've been able to find only a few references to this board, and no > documentation. Does anyone here have experience with this setup, or know > where to find docs? Thanks. Well, the daughterboard looks like it takes an EPROM and maps it into memory somewhere. There are a couple of octal buffers and a comparator on there, so presumably you set where it falls in the address space with the DIP switch. Gordon From js at cimmeri.com Sat May 16 10:39:59 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 10:39:59 -0500 Subject: DEC ST506 Interface Adapter Part No 54-17003-01 In-Reply-To: References: <4044223926699016881@unknownmsgid> <4A0C6D57.10208@verizon.net> <4B3DD6EA-69AA-4837-A49A-BC72A5314333@neurotica.com> <4A0ED1D3.6070102@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4A0EDE4F.1030102@cimmeri.com> Here's my personal notes on MFM formatting with the VS2000. Most was gleaned off the Internet; some I revised or improved myself. Can't remember the sources to give credit, sorry. You can set the interleave. Example: CDC WREN II #200232 xbnsiz:=54 - number of transfer blocks. All DEC's disks seem to use 54, regardless of capacity. dbnsiz:=31 - = (SURPUN*17) - XBNSIZ lbnsiz:=78115 - = first, take (Actual Cyls - 1) * SURPUN * 17 - (XBN+DBN). Then calc RBNs and subtract them. rbnsiz:=340 - = at least 0.2% of LBNSIZ surpun:=5 - number of heads (surfaces) cylpun:=925 - actual number of cylinders wrtprc:=128 - cyl to start write precomp. rctsiz:=4 - size of Replacement and Caching Table. rctnbr:=8 - number of copies of the RCT. DEC disks appear to always use 8. secitl:=1 - sec/sec interleave. 1:1. stsskw :=2 - sec/sec skew. All drives seem to use 2. ctcskw :=8 - cyl/cyl skew. Most DEC drives seem to use 8. mediai :=627327008 - media ID code. See "VS2000 Formatter.MHT" for explanation. Example: CDC WREN #200052 / 697 x 5 x 17 36mb XBNSIZ:=54 DBNSIZ:=31 LBNSIZ:=58900 RBNSIZ:=175 SURPUN:=5 CYLPUN:=697 WRTPRC:=348 RCTSIZ:=4 RCTNBR:=8 SECITL:=1 STSSKW:=2 CTCSKW:=8 MEDAI:=627327028 Example: IMI 5012H #200051 / 306 x 4 x 17 WrPre: 214 XBNSIZ:=54 DBNSIZ:=14 LBNSIZ:=20600 RBNSIZ:=72 SURPUN:=4 CYLPUN:=306 WRTPRC:=214 RCTSIZ:=4 RCTNBR:=8 SECITL:=1 STSSKW:=2 CTCSKW:=8 MEDAI:=627327027 Others: RD54 RD53 ST4097 ------ ------ ------ XBNSIZ 54 54 54 DBNSIZ 201 82 99 LBNSIZ 311256 138672 156060 RBNSIZ 609 280 306 SURPUN 15 8 9 CYLPUN 1221? 1020? 1021? WRTPRC 1221 1020 1024 RCTSIZ 7 5 5 RCTNBR 8 8 8 SECITL 1 1 1 STSSKW 2 2 2 CTCSKW 8 8 8 MEDAI 627327030 627327029 627327029 =============================================================== From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat May 16 11:31:25 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 12:31:25 -0400 Subject: DEC ST506 Interface Adapter Part No 54-17003-01 In-Reply-To: <350517.5709.qm@web37101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <350517.5709.qm@web37101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 5:51 PM, Julian Skidmore wrote: >> I thought it could only format "known" disk types, not arbitrary disks >> (a firmware limitation in the formatter application, not a hardware >> limitation). > > Surely, it's possible to hack an RQDX3 controller's ROM to support arbitrary geometries? The geometries aren't in the RQDXn ROMs - the formatter application writes them to the disk during the formatter process. There are three VAX formatters I know of - the ROMs on a VS/uV2000, the Customer Runnable Diagnostics (CRD) and the Field Service diagnostics. I know the CRD formatter only allows you to select known drives from a menu table and the Field Service formatter allows you to enter arbitrary values (i.e., has a menu plus a fill-in page). The ROM-based formatter on the VS/uV2000 was the one I appear to have mis-remembered the capabilities of. No hacking of the RQDX3 is required, just selection of the right formatter application. -ethan From vrs at msn.com Sat May 16 12:17:42 2009 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 10:17:42 -0700 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? References: <49FC8B73.4060605@softjar.se><49FF9330.4060903@nktelco.net> <4A0A4F55.2000108@hachti.de><4A0B45BD.2050809@nktelco.net> <4A0B6E1F.9020804@hachti.de> <20090514111040.GI10897@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: From: "Chris Elmquist" Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 4:10 AM > I may have missed some facts earlier in this thread-- but does the system > obey hardware flow control such as CTS? ie, if CTS is low, will it be > blocked from transmitting? If that is obeyed by all of your OS and > software, then it is not hard to build a microcontroller that would sit > between the system and the terminal, adding the delays you need on > while buffering for and hardware flow controlling back toward the PDP-8. The short answer is no -- none of the PDP-8's do output flow control "out-of-the-box". (I haven't checked on the DECmates, maybe some of those do.) On some models this should be relatively easy to retrofit. (I don't know how to do it offhand for the M8650 card, nor for the models before the 8/i, though.) And you'd still need the kludge you describe (or equivalent), since the VT05 also doesn't generate a flow control signal. Vince From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 16 12:19:38 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 18:19:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tektronix 4097 GPIB 8" Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: from "Rick Bensene" at May 15, 9 06:32:29 pm Message-ID: > With the service manual saying that that the FAULT light being on is > most likely indicating a RAM problem, I started looking at the datasheet > for the MK4027 chips used in the 4907. I don't have any of these (or > equivalents) on hand, but I then looked at the datasheet for the MK4116 > (a 16K x 1 DRAM), which, I happen to have a bunch of. The only > difference between the two devices is that the MK4116 replaces Pin 13 > (~CS) on the MK4027 with A6. All of the other pinouts are identical, > and the voltages and general timing specifications are the same between > the two chips. What I'm wondering is if I could just pull all of the > MK4027's and replace them with MK4116's. In the schematic for the RAM > section of the 4907 controller shows the ~CS pin on all of the MK4027's > is wired to ground. This would have the effect, with a 4116 plugged in > place of the 4027, of forcing the A6 address line 0 at all times, which, > if my brain is working properly (there are days when I wonder), should > not have any effect on the 4116's ability to serve as a replacement for > the 4027s. The problem comes when the CS/ pin of the 4027 is used for something. In that case, if you replace the 4027s with 4116s, you are likely to end up with a bus contention, since the 4116s will probably not be disabled at the right time. But if CS/ is grounded, the selection must be done in some other way (gating the CAS/ line is the most obvious). In which case there is no problem. It should work fine. -tony From rivie at ridgenet.net Sat May 16 12:25:04 2009 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 10:25:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC ST506 Interface Adapter Part No 54-17003-01 In-Reply-To: <4A0ED1D3.6070102@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4044223926699016881@unknownmsgid> <4A0C6D57.10208@verizon.net> <4B3DD6EA-69AA-4837-A49A-BC72A5314333@neurotica.com> <4A0ED1D3.6070102@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 May 2009, Pete Turnbull wrote: > RQDX1 and RQDX2 certainly use 3:1 RQDX1 and RQDX2 also use 18 sectors per track and a non-standard format. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net > > From toby at coreware.co.uk Sat May 16 13:56:28 2009 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 19:56:28 +0100 Subject: Archiving RX50s with PUTR Message-ID: <1242500188.7676.96.camel@spasmo> I have a large box of RX50 disks that I would like to archive onto modern media to ensure they are preserved. I've built up a machine with a 5.25" floppy drive and install DOS and PUTR. Is the best method to archive them to: MOUNT B: /FOREIGN /RX50 followed by: COPY/DEV/FILE B: [filename] for each of the disks I insert? I was pondering whether I should use the /BINARY flag on the copy, but I've not seen this mentioned on other webpages I have read. Just want to make sure I don't spend the next few hours creating hundreds of useless images! Once I have finished I will put anything useful looking online so others can make use of any treasure. Thanks, Toby -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat May 16 14:04:56 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 20:04:56 +0100 Subject: DEC ST506 Interface Adapter Part No 54-17003-01 In-Reply-To: References: <4044223926699016881@unknownmsgid> <4A0C6D57.10208@verizon.net> <4B3DD6EA-69AA-4837-A49A-BC72A5314333@neurotica.com> <4A0ED1D3.6070102@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4A0F0E58.3020406@dunnington.plus.com> On 16/05/2009 18:25, Roger Ivie wrote: > On Sat, 16 May 2009, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> RQDX1 and RQDX2 certainly use 3:1 > > RQDX1 and RQDX2 also use 18 sectors per track and a non-standard format. Yup, I know. Even the RQDX3 isn't quite like a PC controller's format, either. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From aek at bitsavers.org Sat May 16 14:19:11 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 12:19:11 -0700 Subject: bitsavers redirecting to the mirrors Message-ID: <4A0F11AF.7090802@bitsavers.org> Is anyone else seeing bitsavers.org or www.bitsavers.org being redirected to the mirror sites? From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 16 14:26:34 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 12:26:34 -0700 Subject: bitsavers redirecting to the mirrors In-Reply-To: <4A0F11AF.7090802@bitsavers.org> References: <4A0F11AF.7090802@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4A0EB0FA.10016.5825634@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 May 2009 at 12:19, Al Kossow wrote: > Is anyone else seeing bitsavers.org or www.bitsavers.org being > redirected to the mirror sites? > Yup, redirected to trailing-edge.com. -Chuck From evan at snarc.net Sat May 16 14:28:57 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 15:28:57 -0400 Subject: bitsavers redirecting to the mirrors In-Reply-To: <4A0F11AF.7090802@bitsavers.org> References: <4A0F11AF.7090802@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4A0F13F9.4070400@snarc.net> > Is anyone else seeing bitsavers.org or www.bitsavers.org being redirected > to the mirror sites? Yes. Goes to http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/ From halarewich at gmail.com Sat May 16 14:27:59 2009 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 12:27:59 -0700 Subject: bitsavers redirecting to the mirrors In-Reply-To: <4A0F11AF.7090802@bitsavers.org> References: <4A0F11AF.7090802@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <6d6501090905161227y71a68efbh80e67521a56fef1c@mail.gmail.com> On 5/16/09, Al Kossow wrote: > > Is anyone else seeing bitsavers.org or www.bitsavers.org being redirected > to the mirror sites? > > From halarewich at gmail.com Sat May 16 14:29:33 2009 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 12:29:33 -0700 Subject: bitsavers redirecting to the mirrors In-Reply-To: <6d6501090905161227y71a68efbh80e67521a56fef1c@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A0F11AF.7090802@bitsavers.org> <6d6501090905161227y71a68efbh80e67521a56fef1c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6d6501090905161229v7325b31dp80696bd584f892b6@mail.gmail.com> first one goes to trailing edge second one goes to vt100.net On 5/16/09, Chris Halarewich wrote: > > > > On 5/16/09, Al Kossow wrote: >> >> Is anyone else seeing bitsavers.org or www.bitsavers.org being redirected >> to the mirror sites? >> >> > From aek at bitsavers.org Sat May 16 14:30:56 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 12:30:56 -0700 Subject: bitsavers redirecting to the mirrors In-Reply-To: <4A0EB0FA.10016.5825634@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4A0F11AF.7090802@bitsavers.org> <4A0EB0FA.10016.5825634@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A0F1470.2060802@bitsavers.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 16 May 2009 at 12:19, Al Kossow wrote: > >> Is anyone else seeing bitsavers.org or www.bitsavers.org being >> redirected to the mirror sites? >> > Yup, redirected to trailing-edge.com. > That is really bad. Tim will not be pleased. From steve at cosam.org Sat May 16 14:38:54 2009 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 21:38:54 +0200 Subject: bitsavers redirecting to the mirrors In-Reply-To: <4A0F11AF.7090802@bitsavers.org> References: <4A0F11AF.7090802@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <95838e090905161238t2e47f47bs6c8b9a482c0aa493@mail.gmail.com> 2009/5/16 Al Kossow : > Is anyone else seeing bitsavers.org or www.bitsavers.org being redirected > to the mirror sites? Yep. They both resolve to 209.145.140.17 here. If I ask that server for bitsavers.org I get an HTTP 302 to http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/ -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sat May 16 15:04:03 2009 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 16:04:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 68000 coprocessor board In-Reply-To: <1242487579.3985.18.camel@elric> References: <200905151516.n4FFGml07992@h-68-165-246-86-static.mclnva23.covad.net> , , <4A0DD03B.2010005@bitsavers.org> <4A0D7815.16762.BC14ED@cclist.sydex.com> <1242487579.3985.18.camel@elric> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 May 2009, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/IMSAI/HSCDaughter-L.jpg >> >> I've been able to find only a few references to this board, and no >> documentation. Does anyone here have experience with this setup, or know >> where to find docs? Thanks. > > Well, the daughterboard looks like it takes an EPROM and maps it into > memory somewhere. There are a couple of octal buffers and a comparator > on there, so presumably you set where it falls in the address space with > the DIP switch. Sorry, I should have been a bit more clear. The daughterboard plugs into the Z80 socket on the ZPU board and the Z80 plugs into the socket on the daughterboard. Here it is in place in the IMSAI: http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/IMSAI/IMSAI-05L.jpg The ribbon cable from the daughterboard plugs into the 68000 board. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From spedraja at ono.com Sat May 16 15:22:04 2009 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 22:22:04 +0200 Subject: bitsavers redirecting to the mirrors In-Reply-To: <95838e090905161238t2e47f47bs6c8b9a482c0aa493@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A0F11AF.7090802@bitsavers.org> <95838e090905161238t2e47f47bs6c8b9a482c0aa493@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes. I sent one message yesterday in the evening (in Europe) about the matter to Al. It wouldn't be a problem if the mirrors would be updated but isn't so. Greetings Sergio 2009/5/16 Steve Maddison > 2009/5/16 Al Kossow : > > Is anyone else seeing bitsavers.org or www.bitsavers.org being > redirected > > to the mirror sites? > > Yep. They both resolve to 209.145.140.17 here. If I ask that server > for bitsavers.org I get an HTTP 302 to > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/ > > -- > Steve Maddison > http://www.cosam.org/ > From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sat May 16 15:59:25 2009 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 16:59:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 68000 coprocessor board In-Reply-To: References: <200905151516.n4FFGml07992@h-68-165-246-86-static.mclnva23.covad.net>, , <4A0DD03B.2010005@bitsavers.org> <4A0D7815.16762.BC14ED@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 May 2009, Mike Loewen wrote: > I'm trying to find some documentation for an HSC C016 processor board, > which came with an IMSAI 8080 I acquired. After some more digging, I found a couple of references to this board. HSC is apparently Hallock Systems, as explained in this note: "As a side note, I once had a Hallock Systems CO-1668 68000 based co-processor on my old Xerox 820-1. It had 2 Meg of memory and was able to run CP/M-68K. It also supported a RAM drive under CP/M-80. The CO-1668 basically used the Z80 CP/M system as a file and I/O server. All of the CP/M-68K system calls were sent to the Z80 system and then converted to CP/M-80 calls and then the operation was completed. Kind of slow but it worked." Still looking for documentation... Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From aek at bitsavers.org Sat May 16 16:28:44 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 14:28:44 -0700 Subject: bitsavers redirecting to the mirrors In-Reply-To: References: <4A0F11AF.7090802@bitsavers.org> <95838e090905161238t2e47f47bs6c8b9a482c0aa493@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A0F300C.2050909@bitsavers.org> SPC wrote: > Yes. I sent one message yesterday in the evening (in Europe) about the > matter to Al. Unfortunately, Al doesn't run the machine. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat May 16 16:59:17 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 14:59:17 -0700 Subject: bitsavers redirecting to the mirrors In-Reply-To: <4A0F1470.2060802@bitsavers.org> References: <4A0F11AF.7090802@bitsavers.org> <4A0EB0FA.10016.5825634@cclist.sydex.com> <4A0F1470.2060802@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: At 12:30 PM -0700 5/16/09, Al Kossow wrote: >Chuck Guzis wrote: >>On 16 May 2009 at 12:19, Al Kossow wrote: >> >>>Is anyone else seeing bitsavers.org or www.bitsavers.org being >>>redirected to the mirror sites? >>> >> Yup, redirected to trailing-edge.com. >> > >That is really bad. Tim will not be pleased. Yeah, that's his home line isn't it. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat May 16 17:15:06 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 18:15:06 -0400 Subject: Re-installing a TouchTone keypad in an ASR-33 Message-ID: Hi, All, I know I've mentioned this long-outstanding project before, but just this week, I've had a couple of nudges towards getting it done... First, Will Donzelli stopped by on his Eastward Progress to deliver some PDP-8 gear to me, and in the process of showing him around my Farm, I pointed out this ASR-33 w/110 bps modem in the pedestal. Second, I just found the box of telephone parts with two pre-IC-era touchtone keypads, one of which I'm positive I removed from the TTY years ago when I was tearing it apart (in ignorance) to attempt to remove the modem, etc., and make it a viable console TTY for my (first) PDP-8/L. So... what I still lack is proper documentation to know how to install the TouchTone pads. I'm thinking it'll be much easier these days to find a PDF than it ever would have to find real paper in the 1980s when I bought the TTY at Dayton. My question (for now) is... how I can tell which of these two keypads is likely to be the right unit. They are superficially identical, but one has 7 wires, the other 11 as follows... Both: Green, Red, Black, White, Blue/White, Black/Orange, Red/Green One: Purple, Blue, Orange, White/Green There is what appears to be a date-code on the bobbin transformers on the 7-wire pad of 3-77 vs 12-80 on the 11-wire pad. If that _is_ a date code, I'd wager the 3-77 unit is from the ASR-33 simply because I don't think I would have been able to pick up a 3-4-year-old ASR-33 at Dayton for $35 or so, but I can believe that a 7-8-year-old unit could have been that cheap. OTOH, I can see how a data device might need a more complicated keypad (there appear to be additional levels of switches compared to the simpler one, thus it suggests where the extra 4 wires are going). I'm thinking that I probably just loosened the screw terminals in the ASR-33 and removed the keypad to either get it out of the way or because I thought I might recycle it into something else. Now, give that I know there are differences other than the modem in the one TTY, I'm probably unlikely to attempt to convert it to a 6-wire console-capable TTY, and would like to restore the modem-equipped TTY to its original functionality. Does anyone on the list know of a good resource for 1970s-1980s telephone techology that is available (i.e., not something that Western Electric/Lucent is sitting on that's for internal use only)? I have PDFs for the mechanical bits of an ASR-33; those have been floating around for some time (and I have them on paper, too, that came with my console-capable TTY). I lack any modem-equipped-model-specific docs. Those would be most helpful, as I could reinstall the TouchTone pad in a few minutes once I knew what wires go where. Thanks for any tips and pointers. -ethan From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sat May 16 17:20:35 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 23:20:35 +0100 Subject: Re-installing a TouchTone keypad in an ASR-33 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: looks like I have to do some digging and maybe scanning http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv10.php?searchv4page=1&errlev=0&searchstr=asr is what I have somewhere at home Dave Caroline On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 11:15 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hi, All, > > I know I've mentioned this long-outstanding project before, but just > this week, I've had a couple of nudges towards getting it done... > First, Will Donzelli stopped by on his Eastward Progress to deliver > some PDP-8 gear to me, and in the process of showing him around my > Farm, I pointed out this ASR-33 w/110 bps modem in the pedestal. > Second, I just found the box of telephone parts with two pre-IC-era > touchtone keypads, one of which I'm positive I removed from the TTY > years ago when I was tearing it apart (in ignorance) to attempt to > remove the modem, etc., and make it a viable console TTY for my > (first) PDP-8/L. > > So... what I still lack is proper documentation to know how to install > the TouchTone pads. ?I'm thinking it'll be much easier these days to > find a PDF than it ever would have to find real paper in the 1980s > when I bought the TTY at Dayton. > > My question (for now) is... how I can tell which of these two keypads > is likely to be the right unit. ?They are superficially identical, but > one has 7 wires, the other 11 as follows... > > Both: Green, Red, Black, White, Blue/White, Black/Orange, Red/Green > One: Purple, Blue, Orange, White/Green > > There is what appears to be a date-code on the bobbin transformers on > the 7-wire pad of 3-77 vs 12-80 on the 11-wire pad. ?If that _is_ a > date code, I'd wager the 3-77 unit is from the ASR-33 simply because I > don't think I would have been able to pick up a 3-4-year-old ASR-33 at > Dayton for $35 or so, but I can believe that a 7-8-year-old unit could > have been that cheap. ?OTOH, I can see how a data device might need a > more complicated keypad (there appear to be additional levels of > switches compared to the simpler one, thus it suggests where the extra > 4 wires are going). > > I'm thinking that I probably just loosened the screw terminals in the > ASR-33 and removed the keypad to either get it out of the way or > because I thought I might recycle it into something else. ?Now, give > that I know there are differences other than the modem in the one TTY, > I'm probably unlikely to attempt to convert it to a 6-wire > console-capable TTY, and would like to restore the modem-equipped TTY > to its original functionality. > > Does anyone on the list know of a good resource for 1970s-1980s > telephone techology that is available (i.e., not something that > Western Electric/Lucent is sitting on that's for internal use only)? > I have PDFs for the mechanical bits of an ASR-33; those have been > floating around for some time (and I have them on paper, too, that > came with my console-capable TTY). ?I lack any > modem-equipped-model-specific docs. ?Those would be most helpful, as I > could reinstall the TouchTone pad in a few minutes once I knew what > wires go where. > > Thanks for any tips and pointers. > > -ethan > From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 16 17:22:38 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 15:22:38 -0700 Subject: bitsavers redirecting to the mirrors In-Reply-To: References: <4A0F11AF.7090802@bitsavers.org>, <4A0F1470.2060802@bitsavers.org>, Message-ID: <4A0EDA3E.25244.6238246@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 May 2009 at 14:59, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >That is really bad. Tim will not be pleased. > > Yeah, that's his home line isn't it. No matter, the redirection now goes to bitsavers.vt100.net (which is the mirror I usually use). --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat May 16 17:37:48 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 18:37:48 -0400 Subject: Re-installing a TouchTone keypad in an ASR-33 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 6:20 PM, Dave Caroline wrote: > looks like I have to do some digging and maybe scanning > http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv10.php?searchv4page=1&errlev=0&searchstr=asr > is what I have somewhere at home The titles there look interesting, but I can't tell if any of the contents would apply specifically to the telephone circuits in the type of unit I have. If you do dig out the paper docs and have time to look over them, what I already have is the basic electrical and mechanical docs for a 20mA ASR-33, but nothing to do with the modem or telephone answer or dial circuits (one of the cool features of this unit, which I tested 25 years ago, was to plug it in but leave it off then to call it up from a computer (the ring would switch on the main TTY motor, etc), send text to it (at 110 baud, of course), and send a CTRL-D (EOT) which would shut it off again. AFAIK, this was standard for, say, TTYs at a news bureau, but it was fascinating to me in the early 1980s. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat May 16 19:17:52 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 20:17:52 -0400 Subject: Re-installing a TouchTone keypad in an ASR-33 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks to http://www.porticus.org/, I've actually learned where to look on the keypad for the part number and the manufacturing date (which may help identify which one is from a phone and which one is from the ASR-33)... 35Y3D / Apr 1977 - 7 wires as previously described 35AF4A / Jan 1081 - 11 wires as previously described Here's a close-up shot of the one... http://www.porticus.org/bell/images/dial_35y3a.jpg ... and the schematic... http://www.porticus.org/bell/images/35_dial.gif ... from which I can deduce that I should have *8* wires. Close examination of this dial shows an off-board connector that is totally missing a wire, so that must be where "blue" goes, and the green wire next to it is weakened from flexing and about to fall off, too. It's an unfortunate circumstance of the board attachment points being right at the opening in the plastic shell with nothing to prevent them from moving combined with the engineering expectation that these wires are going to be sitting in a phone and not subject to much stress. So... now I know I have a 35Y3D and a 35AF4A and have a 35Y3D schematic. The next step is to find any docs that relate to the modem-equipped ASR-33 and where the dial attaches. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat May 16 19:26:08 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 17:26:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re-installing a TouchTone keypad in an ASR-33 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090516172454.O73351@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 16 May 2009, Ethan Dicks wrote: > 35AF4A / Jan 1081 - 11 wires as previously described I thought that things were completely wireless in those days From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat May 16 19:38:11 2009 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 17:38:11 -0700 Subject: Archiving RX50s with PUTR In-Reply-To: <1242500188.7676.96.camel@spasmo> References: <1242500188.7676.96.camel@spasmo> Message-ID: <200905161738.11839.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Toby, On Saturday 16 May 2009, Tobias Russell wrote: > I have a large box of RX50 disks that I would like to archive onto > modern media to ensure they are preserved. I've built up a machine with > a 5.25" floppy drive and install DOS and PUTR. > > Is the best method to archive them to: > > MOUNT B: /FOREIGN /RX50 > > followed by: > > COPY/DEV/FILE B: [filename] > > for each of the disks I insert? > > I was pondering whether I should use the /BINARY flag on the copy, but > I've not seen this mentioned on other webpages I have read. Since PUTR "understands" multiple filetypes, I have found it is much better to save the contents of each floppy (RX50) to a separate directory - but NOT as an image file, but rather as individual files. That way you can later use PUTR to create logical media of any form - say RL02, RX01, etc. from the captured files. Assuming drive "B:" is your 5.25" drive, and the OS is RT11 you would do the following: MOUNT B: /RT11 /RX50 then COPY B:*.* . and you will have captured the individual files that were on the RX50. When you reverse the process to recreate a diskette (RX50, RX23, RX01, etc.) be sure to use a SET B: type; i.e., SET B: RX23 then FORMAT B: /RT11 /RX23 (or whatever) then COPY *.* B: NOTE: Be absolutely sure to SET COPY BINARY before you do anything. For some unknown reason, the PUTR default is ASCII. (I have a SET COPY BINARY in PUTR's initialization file - to be sure I never forget to do it ;-) Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are were God is dividing by zero" From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat May 16 19:39:31 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 20:39:31 -0400 Subject: Re-installing a TouchTone keypad in an ASR-33 In-Reply-To: <20090516172454.O73351@shell.lmi.net> References: <20090516172454.O73351@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 16 May 2009, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> 35AF4A / Jan 1081 - 11 wires as previously described > > I thought that things were completely wireless in those days Yes... but fingers weren't as fat then (should be 1981, of course). More digging... Found a schematic for the 35AF4A on http://www.telephonecollectors.org and a text table with the following entry... "Substitute for 35C3A dial. Not for general purpose type telphone sets. Intended for use in 2565GK, HK, LK, 2568HU, HAA, and 2580A telephone sets and 1035AF3A adjunct dial." This is now pointing me strongly in the direction that the 35AF4A is the one I'm looking for. Now to find docs on the "network" in the ASR-33 for what color wire goes where. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 16 19:47:35 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 17:47:35 -0700 Subject: Re-installing a TouchTone keypad in an ASR-33 In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4A0EFC37.522.6A83E50@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 May 2009 at 20:17, Ethan Dicks wrote: > ... and the schematic... > > http://www.porticus.org/bell/images/35_dial.gif One of my favorite schematics! Generating DTMF with a single transistor. ISTR that the 113 modem was equally sparse in active devices, but I can't find a schematic anywhere. --Chuck From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat May 16 20:19:38 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 21:19:38 -0400 Subject: S-100 backplane prototype PCB still available Message-ID: <9225E700672945B3B62CB31586A88422@andrewdesktop> Hi! Although there hasn't been much interest here in my S-100 backplane prototype project on CCTALK progress is continuing. Thankfully I have found several brave volunteers to test these initial units and help share the cost of the manufacturing run with me. I appreciate their help immensely. Of the eight initial units, I've shipped six and one more is committed. I still have one PCB left if there is anyone on CCTALK that would like to join the project. Much of the testing has already been done and some things have been improved but the basic design is proving to be functional and everything basically works. There are some improvements I am keeping track of such as better labeling on the PCB silkscreen but nothing which yet warrants a "respin." Drawings of the N8VEM S-100 backplane prototype are available on the wiki. The N8VEM S-100 backplane prototype PCBs are $32 each plus $2 shipping in the US. Shipping overseas is typically $5. http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/browse/#view=ViewFolder ¶m=S100 In addition to the S-100 backplane prototype PCB there are drawings for the N8VEM S-100 prototyping board which I am developing. There have been several revisions and I am not done with it yet. If anyone is interested please contact me off list. I do not have a firm estimate on the price of the N8VEM S-100 prototyping board but I believe it will be in the mid $20 range probably around $25 each plus shipping. Any comments, suggestions, or questions are welcome. Please be constructive and postive! Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat May 16 22:10:22 2009 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 22:10:22 -0500 Subject: bitsavers redirecting to the mirrors References: <4A0F11AF.7090802@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <01a001c9d69d$04a5e400$c900a8c0@JWEST> Al wrote... > Is anyone else seeing bitsavers.org or www.bitsavers.org being redirected > to the mirror sites? > Yes, I've been trying to get the redirection mod working for ages, finally figured it out. But I was just testing, didn't mean to leave it on to just a couple sites. It's turned off now :) Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat May 16 22:16:36 2009 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 22:16:36 -0500 Subject: bitsavers redirecting to the mirrors References: <4A0F11AF.7090802@bitsavers.org><4A0EB0FA.10016.5825634@cclist.sydex.com> <4A0F1470.2060802@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <01bb01c9d69d$e3707f60$c900a8c0@JWEST> Al wrote... > That is really bad. Tim will not be pleased. My test case while working on the mirror redirection software was vt100 and trailing edge. I didn't mean to leave it in place, but I did fall asleep at the keyboard the night I was working on it (literally). I'm concerned if it might cause Tim issues. If he got excessive bandwidth charges, I will pay them, no questions asked. However, I am a bit concerned if this would cause a problem. Anyone who has signed up as a bitsavers mirror as been advised that they must make their mirror public, and they must be able to sustain a reasonable load (fair share) of bandwidth - otherwise they shouldn't be mirroring it (this is just meant to make it fair for everyone, including me). That's not to say that 1/2 the load is fair, it isn't. But a suprising number of people hit the bitsavers site and then select their favorite mirror, so I wouldn't think it would have made that much difference. Let me know if so. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat May 16 22:22:06 2009 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 22:22:06 -0500 Subject: bitsavers redirecting to the mirrors References: <4A0F11AF.7090802@bitsavers.org>, <4A0F1470.2060802@bitsavers.org>, <4A0EDA3E.25244.6238246@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <01e201c9d69e$a7c7dd40$c900a8c0@JWEST> The test (temporary for the past day or so) was to rotate round-robin equally between vt100 and tim. Again, most people hit a mirror after that, so what machine gets the initial html page wouldn't be as large of traffic as one would think. Normally. The idea (now that the "random" url module works) would be that once someone hits bitsavers.org, it transfers them off to any one of all the mirrors (not just 2). The mirrors all update from the main bitsavers copy about every day, or they wouldn't be mirrors would they :) Once I got it working I was going to discuss this with Al off-list, will do that now :) Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 5:22 PM Subject: Re: bitsavers redirecting to the mirrors > On 16 May 2009 at 14:59, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> >That is really bad. Tim will not be pleased. >> >> Yeah, that's his home line isn't it. > > No matter, the redirection now goes to bitsavers.vt100.net (which is > the mirror I usually use). > > --Chuck > From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat May 16 22:25:37 2009 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 22:25:37 -0500 Subject: S-100 backplane prototype PCB still available References: <9225E700672945B3B62CB31586A88422@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <020101c9d69f$26031490$c900a8c0@JWEST> > Hi! Although there hasn't been much interest here in my S-100 backplane > prototype project on CCTALK progress is continuing. Thankfully I have > found > several brave volunteers to test these initial units and help share the > cost > of the manufacturing run with me. I appreciate their help immensely. Consider me another brave volunteer :) Where do I send the cash/check/moneyorder to get a board :> Jay West From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat May 16 23:20:50 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 21:20:50 -0700 Subject: Looking for Mac Color Classic motherboard Message-ID: <4A0F90A2.5020701@mail.msu.edu> Title says it all; rescued a Color Classic from Certain Doom, but the motherboard is beyond repair (somehow it's all rusted and nasty while the rest of the machine is clean as a whistle...) Anyone have a working spare to part with (or know a good place to get one cheap?) Thanks as always... Josh From spectre at floodgap.com Sat May 16 23:39:03 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 21:39:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for Mac Color Classic motherboard In-Reply-To: <4A0F90A2.5020701@mail.msu.edu> from Josh Dersch at "May 16, 9 09:20:50 pm" Message-ID: <200905170439.n4H4d3G8013462@floodgap.com> > Title says it all; rescued a Color Classic from Certain Doom, but the > motherboard is beyond repair (somehow it's all rusted and nasty while > the rest of the machine is clean as a whistle...) > > Anyone have a working spare to part with (or know a good place to get > one cheap?) That is probably hard to come by (and you can't have mine :) but I am told you can replace it with a Performa 275 or 550 (although the rear port cover may not necessarily match up). Alternatively, turn it into a Mystic with an LC 570-series board; see http://www.colourclassicfaq.com/mobo/roadmap.html -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Why was I born with such contemporaries? -- Oscar Wilde -------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Sat May 16 23:43:20 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 21:43:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for Mac Color Classic motherboard In-Reply-To: <200905170439.n4H4d3G8013462@floodgap.com> from Cameron Kaiser at "May 16, 9 09:39:03 pm" Message-ID: <200905170443.n4H4hKC6011834@floodgap.com> > That is probably hard to come by (and you can't have mine :) but I am > told you can replace it with a Performa 275 or 550 (although the rear > port cover may not necessarily match up). And, just in case it wasn't clear, a Performa 250 would be an exact match ;-) but I actually have seen more CCs than I've seen P250s. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- This message will self-destruct in five seconds. Good luck, Jim. -- M:I ---- From mikelee at tdh.com Sat May 16 23:45:27 2009 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 23:45:27 -0500 Subject: Looking for Mac Color Classic motherboard In-Reply-To: <4A0F90A2.5020701@mail.msu.edu> References: <4A0F90A2.5020701@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4A0F9667.4020801@tdh.com> As already discussed heavily on the list, it's probably due to the battery corroding/erupting over time. The Mac Color Classic I got my hands on was the same way. Since I really had nothing to lose, I took the easy approach of actually just washing the board under water. Once dried and reassembled it worked. There were much more elegant approaches on how you might repair such damages on the list. Might be worth a look. Josh Dersch wrote: > Title says it all; rescued a Color Classic from Certain Doom, but the > motherboard is beyond repair (somehow it's all rusted and nasty while > the rest of the machine is clean as a whistle...) > > Anyone have a working spare to part with (or know a good place to get > one cheap?) > > Thanks as always... > Josh From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun May 17 00:26:55 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 22:26:55 -0700 Subject: Looking for Mac Color Classic motherboard In-Reply-To: <4A0F9667.4020801@tdh.com> References: <4A0F90A2.5020701@mail.msu.edu> <4A0F9667.4020801@tdh.com> Message-ID: <4A0FA01F.9040908@mail.msu.edu> Michael Lee wrote: > As already discussed heavily on the list, it's probably due to the > battery corroding/erupting over time. The Mac Color Classic I got my > hands on was the same way. Since I really had nothing to lose, I took > the easy approach of actually just washing the board under water. > Once dried and reassembled it worked. > There were much more elegant approaches on how you might repair such > damages on the list. Might be worth a look. > > It's not battery corrosion -- the board is literally rusted, all over :). The battery's nasty too, but that's only a small part of what's wrong with it. I suppose I can soak it in something, maybe scrub it with a toothbrush and see if that helps at all, but it's pretty bad. As Cameron pointed out, there are other boards that will work with some modification, I'll keep my eyes out for those as well... Thanks, Josh > > Josh Dersch wrote: >> Title says it all; rescued a Color Classic from Certain Doom, but the >> motherboard is beyond repair (somehow it's all rusted and nasty while >> the rest of the machine is clean as a whistle...) >> >> Anyone have a working spare to part with (or know a good place to get >> one cheap?) >> >> Thanks as always... >> Josh > > > From mike at fenz.net Sun May 17 00:51:14 2009 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 17:51:14 +1200 Subject: Apple II Plus power supply strangeness In-Reply-To: <4A0FA01F.9040908@mail.msu.edu> References: <4A0F90A2.5020701@mail.msu.edu> <4A0F9667.4020801@tdh.com> <4A0FA01F.9040908@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4A0FA5D2.7000905@fenz.net> I've had a little more time to poke at the Apple II Europlus. It's a 240V model - reason I mention that is that the power supply is doing strange things. If I power it up with no cards, it will do nothing for a minute or so. Looking closely, the power light glows very dimly; the +5V PS line is sitting at about 1V or so. After a little time, the supply will suddenly come up completely, and the machine will work perfectly and pass all tests for maybe 30 seconds, after which the memory slowly becomes more and more corrupt. If, while the PS is not running correctly, I hit the Reset button, that will kick it into life. Odd, but I guess Reset lowers the load on the PS, allowing it to start properly. My intention is to replace all the caps on the output side of the PS. In the meantime, does anyone have any insights into why a power supply might behave in this way? Seems odd to me, though my understanding of switch-mode power supply theory doesn't stretch terribly far. Mike. From chris at mainecoon.com Sun May 17 00:59:40 2009 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 22:59:40 -0700 Subject: S/120 prom images (was Re: Vintage Processors in Santa Cruz, CA?) In-Reply-To: <00a401c9d64c$3802dca0$d589d746@linksys> References: <555059.54767.qm@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A0ED8F6.6080704@mainecoon.com> <00a401c9d64c$3802dca0$d589d746@linksys> Message-ID: <4A0FA7CC.2090809@mainecoon.com> Bruce Ray wrote: > Uhhh, you perhaps referring to an S/140? Yep. This is what happens when I engage fingers without benefit of caffeine in the morning. Srry about that :P -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 17 01:16:39 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 23:16:39 -0700 Subject: Looking for Mac Color Classic motherboard In-Reply-To: <4A0FA01F.9040908@mail.msu.edu> References: <4A0F90A2.5020701@mail.msu.edu>, <4A0F9667.4020801@tdh.com>, <4A0FA01F.9040908@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4A0F4957.27540.7D57F2A@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 May 2009 at 22:26, Josh Dersch wrote: > It's not battery corrosion -- the board is literally rusted, all over > :). The battery's nasty too, but that's only a small part of what's > wrong with it. I suppose I can soak it in something, maybe scrub it > with a toothbrush and see if that helps at all, but it's pretty bad. If the board is indeed toast, you've got nothing to lose by sticking it in the dishwasher to see how much of the crud comes off... --Chuck From bruce at Wild-Hare.com Sat May 16 12:31:57 2009 From: bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 11:31:57 -0600 Subject: S/120 prom images (was Re: Vintage Processors in Santa Cruz, CA?) References: <555059.54767.qm@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A0ED8F6.6080704@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <00a401c9d64c$3802dca0$d589d746@linksys> Uhhh, you perhaps referring to an S/140? The S/120 uses the microEclipse chip, not the common microprogrammed-based "CPU Jr" Nova 4/X-Eclipse S/140 boards. (And I do not have an S/140 in-house at this point.) But your spring cleaning work on the 840 sounds interesting! Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc bkr at WildHareComputers.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Kennedy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 09:17 AM Subject: S/120 prom images (was Re: Vintage Processors in Santa Cruz, CA?) > With the recent talk of DG gear it's time for my periodic "If someone > has a S/120 can would make prom images I'd be more than grateful" plea. > I'm long Nova 4s so turning one of them into a S/120 would have utility. > > Chris > (Whose 840 is currently in bits to install hardware floating point) > > -- > Chris Kennedy > chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP > http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 > PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 > "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." > From toby at coreware.co.uk Sun May 17 04:05:02 2009 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 10:05:02 +0100 Subject: Archiving RX50s with PUTR In-Reply-To: <200905161738.11839.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <1242500188.7676.96.camel@spasmo> <200905161738.11839.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <1242551102.7676.103.camel@spasmo> Thanks for the advice. I had already started by the time I ready your reply so I have images for now, although it would be easy to go the extra step by mounting my images and extracting the individual files. I might have a hunt to see if there are any linux/unix utilities out there so I can automate exracting the individual files from RT-11 images. If anyone is interested, the fruits of my labours can be seen here: http://www.pdp11.co.uk/2009/05/17/rt-11-rx50-disk-images/ Quite a few of the files probably already exist in other archives but some of the stuff is probably new. I've not had a chance yet to look through the disks in detail but will annotate up the contents when I get a chance. I've just been given a set of microRSX 1.0 distribution RX50s so I will put those up next. Thanks, Toby On Sat, 2009-05-16 at 17:38 -0700, Lyle Bickley wrote: > Toby, > > On Saturday 16 May 2009, Tobias Russell wrote: > > I have a large box of RX50 disks that I would like to archive onto > > modern media to ensure they are preserved. I've built up a machine with > > a 5.25" floppy drive and install DOS and PUTR. > > > > Is the best method to archive them to: > > > > MOUNT B: /FOREIGN /RX50 > > > > followed by: > > > > COPY/DEV/FILE B: [filename] > > > > for each of the disks I insert? > > > > I was pondering whether I should use the /BINARY flag on the copy, but > > I've not seen this mentioned on other webpages I have read. > > Since PUTR "understands" multiple filetypes, I have found it is much better to > save the contents of each floppy (RX50) to a separate directory - but NOT as an > image file, but rather as individual files. That way you can later use PUTR to > create logical media of any form - say RL02, RX01, etc. from the captured > files. > > Assuming drive "B:" is your 5.25" drive, and the OS is RT11 you would do the > following: > > MOUNT B: /RT11 /RX50 > then > COPY B:*.* . > and you will have captured the individual files that were on the RX50. > > When you reverse the process to recreate a diskette (RX50, RX23, RX01, etc.) be > sure to use a SET B: type; i.e., SET B: RX23 > then > FORMAT B: /RT11 /RX23 (or whatever) > then > COPY *.* B: > > NOTE: Be absolutely sure to SET COPY BINARY before you do anything. For some > unknown reason, the PUTR default is ASCII. (I have a SET COPY BINARY in PUTR's > initialization file - to be sure I never forget to do it ;-) > > Cheers, > Lyle > -- > Lyle Bickley > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > http://bickleywest.com > "Black holes are were God is dividing by zero" > -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sun May 17 04:37:13 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 10:37:13 +0100 Subject: Re-installing a TouchTone keypad in an ASR-33 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I went for a dig in the stack IS731 IS248 and IS749 are the same manual they all have the same section 574-123-100TC issue 1 May 1969 33 Call Control Unit, General Description and Operation probably worth scanning PC12 is the parts catalogue section 574-123-800TC 33 call control unit (UCC) issue 6 December 1970 good exploded views and part numbers IS732 has an earlier version of the call control doc that also covers the 32 as well as 33 574-123-101TC Issue 2 October 1964 32 and 33 Call Control Unit Principles of operation some circuits of sections to explain operation First glances are no full circuit or inter unit wiring info unfortunately Dave Caroline From legalize at xmission.com Sun May 17 09:04:28 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 08:04:28 -0600 Subject: Tektronix 611 display manual Message-ID: Is it online anywhere? Bitsavers doesn't have any manuals for the storage display products (601, 611), just the terminals based on the same kind of storage display. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sun May 17 09:24:45 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 15:24:45 +0100 Subject: Tektronix 611 display manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a paper copy http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv10.php?srcdata=title&srcprog=searchv10.php&searchv4page=1&errlev=0&searchstr=611+display but MOD162C in the title record implies its a special version of it Dave Caroline On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Richard wrote: > Is it online anywhere? ?Bitsavers doesn't have any manuals for the > storage display products (601, 611), just the terminals based on the > same kind of storage display. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > ? ? ? > > ? ? ? ?Legalize Adulthood! > From legalize at xmission.com Sun May 17 10:02:35 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 09:02:35 -0600 Subject: Tektronix 611 display manual In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 17 May 2009 15:24:45 +0100. Message-ID: In article , Dave Caroline writes: > I have a paper copy > http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv10.php?srcdata=3Dtitle&srcprog= > =3Dsearchv10.php&searchv4page=3D1&errlev=3D0&searchstr=3D611+display I'm interested in knowing what the "remote program" connector shown on the back of the display does. In the 1969 Tektronix catalog on bitsavers (thanks, Al!), a picture is shown displaying all ASCII characters. The "remote program" port looks suspiciously like an RS-232 port, but the catalog doesn't say anything about this port and its connection/operation. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 17 12:58:10 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 18:58:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple II Plus power supply strangeness In-Reply-To: <4A0FA5D2.7000905@fenz.net> from "Mike van Bokhoven" at May 17, 9 05:51:14 pm Message-ID: > > I've had a little more time to poke at the Apple II Europlus. It's a > 240V model - reason I mention that is that the power supply is doing > strange things. If I power it up with no cards, it will do nothing for a > minute or so. Looking closely, the power light glows very dimly; the +5V > PS line is sitting at about 1V or so. After a little time, the supply I am assuming this PSU is similar to the one shown on page 93 of the reference manual. According to said manual, the PSU is covered by US patent 4130862. I have no idea what that patent describes, but it might be worth a look (although I doubt it'll be as useful as some of the old HP patents...) This PSU seems to have a crowbar circuit (SCR Q5, zener CR20, etc), but amazingly it seems to be connected to the 12V output. This is, IMHO, ridiculous. When a PSU output sits at about 1V, I often suspect that a crowbar is triggereing, which will shut the supply down, thus enabling the crowbar to turn off, the cycle then repeats. So what you see is an average of the 'too high' and 'shorted' output voltages. If the output capacitors have high ESR (a likely problem due to old age), there will be spikes on the output, sometimes around twice the normal output votlage. These will trip the crowbar, of course. I have no idea why pressing reset makes any difference. I guess it is a change in load -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 17 12:41:53 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 18:41:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re-installing a TouchTone keypad in an ASR-33 In-Reply-To: <4A0EFC37.522.6A83E50@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 16, 9 05:47:35 pm Message-ID: > > On 16 May 2009 at 20:17, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > ... and the schematic... > > > > http://www.porticus.org/bell/images/35_dial.gif > > One of my favorite schematics! Generating DTMF with a single > transistor. ISTR that the 113 modem was equally sparse in active Yes, it's pretty clever... > devices, but I can't find a schematic anywhere. THis is mildly OT, but does anyone know of a source of the schematic for the computer-interfaced autodialler (is that a model 108???) with an RS336 interface from about that time? Finding the actual unit would be even better, but I suspect that's impossible over here. -tony From halarewich at gmail.com Sun May 17 13:28:03 2009 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 11:28:03 -0700 Subject: Apple II Plus power supply strangeness In-Reply-To: References: <4A0FA5D2.7000905@fenz.net> Message-ID: <6d6501090905171128u788203f1g15681bac4910f7ea@mail.gmail.com> here is the link to the us patent office website for that number http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=4130862.PN.&OS=PN/4130862&RS=PN/4130862 On 5/17/09, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > I've had a little more time to poke at the Apple II Europlus. It's a > > 240V model - reason I mention that is that the power supply is doing > > strange things. If I power it up with no cards, it will do nothing for a > > minute or so. Looking closely, the power light glows very dimly; the +5V > > PS line is sitting at about 1V or so. After a little time, the supply > > I am assuming this PSU is similar to the one shown on page 93 of the > reference manual. According to said manual, the PSU is covered by US > patent 4130862. I have no idea what that patent describes, but it might > be worth a look (although I doubt it'll be as useful as some of the old > HP patents...) > > This PSU seems to have a crowbar circuit (SCR Q5, zener CR20, etc), but > amazingly it seems to be connected to the 12V output. This is, IMHO, > ridiculous. When a PSU output sits at about 1V, I often suspect that a > crowbar is triggereing, which will shut the supply down, thus enabling > the crowbar to turn off, the cycle then repeats. So what you see is an > average of the 'too high' and 'shorted' output voltages. > > If the output capacitors have high ESR (a likely problem due to old age), > there will be spikes on the output, sometimes around twice the normal > output votlage. These will trip the crowbar, of course. > > I have no idea why pressing reset makes any difference. I guess it is a > change in load > > -tony > From toby at coreware.co.uk Sun May 17 13:29:59 2009 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 19:29:59 +0100 Subject: Archiving RX50s with PUTR In-Reply-To: <1242551102.7676.103.camel@spasmo> References: <1242500188.7676.96.camel@spasmo> <200905161738.11839.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <1242551102.7676.103.camel@spasmo> Message-ID: <1242584999.7676.111.camel@spasmo> I've put up the microRSX-11 distribution floppies for anyone who is interested. They can be found here: http://www.pdp11.co.uk/2009/05/17/microrsx-11-rx50-distribution/ I've started to play with getting this up and running on simh. It seems to boot the install floppy ok, although it hung after I selected install from the menus. If anyone has better success, please let me know as I would like to get this up and running. All the best, Toby On Sun, 2009-05-17 at 10:05 +0100, Tobias Russell wrote: > Thanks for the advice. I had already started by the time I ready your > reply so I have images for now, although it would be easy to go the > extra step by mounting my images and extracting the individual files. I > might have a hunt to see if there are any linux/unix utilities out there > so I can automate exracting the individual files from RT-11 images. > > If anyone is interested, the fruits of my labours can be seen here: > > http://www.pdp11.co.uk/2009/05/17/rt-11-rx50-disk-images/ > > Quite a few of the files probably already exist in other archives but > some of the stuff is probably new. I've not had a chance yet to look > through the disks in detail but will annotate up the contents when I get > a chance. > > I've just been given a set of microRSX 1.0 distribution RX50s so I will > put those up next. > > Thanks, > Toby > > > > On Sat, 2009-05-16 at 17:38 -0700, Lyle Bickley wrote: > > Toby, > > > > On Saturday 16 May 2009, Tobias Russell wrote: > > > I have a large box of RX50 disks that I would like to archive onto > > > modern media to ensure they are preserved. I've built up a machine with > > > a 5.25" floppy drive and install DOS and PUTR. > > > > > > Is the best method to archive them to: > > > > > > MOUNT B: /FOREIGN /RX50 > > > > > > followed by: > > > > > > COPY/DEV/FILE B: [filename] > > > > > > for each of the disks I insert? > > > > > > I was pondering whether I should use the /BINARY flag on the copy, but > > > I've not seen this mentioned on other webpages I have read. > > > > Since PUTR "understands" multiple filetypes, I have found it is much better to > > save the contents of each floppy (RX50) to a separate directory - but NOT as an > > image file, but rather as individual files. That way you can later use PUTR to > > create logical media of any form - say RL02, RX01, etc. from the captured > > files. > > > > Assuming drive "B:" is your 5.25" drive, and the OS is RT11 you would do the > > following: > > > > MOUNT B: /RT11 /RX50 > > then > > COPY B:*.* . > > and you will have captured the individual files that were on the RX50. > > > > When you reverse the process to recreate a diskette (RX50, RX23, RX01, etc.) be > > sure to use a SET B: type; i.e., SET B: RX23 > > then > > FORMAT B: /RT11 /RX23 (or whatever) > > then > > COPY *.* B: > > > > NOTE: Be absolutely sure to SET COPY BINARY before you do anything. For some > > unknown reason, the PUTR default is ASCII. (I have a SET COPY BINARY in PUTR's > > initialization file - to be sure I never forget to do it ;-) > > > > Cheers, > > Lyle > > -- > > Lyle Bickley > > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > > http://bickleywest.com > > "Black holes are were God is dividing by zero" > > > > -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun May 17 13:35:24 2009 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 13:35:24 -0500 Subject: bitsavers mirror Message-ID: <002701c9d71e$3e8082d0$c900a8c0@JWEST> Several people replied to me privately about my previous post on bitsavers, and apparently got the impression that bandwidth was tight on the server. It is not a case of bandwidth being tight at all, far from it. It's a matter of fairness, the bandwidth is to be distributed among all the mirrors. If you're not prepared to take some real bandwidth, you probably shouldn't be mirroring it. We've got truckloads of available bandwidth. In the past I had throttled bitsavers down because I couldn't find a good fair way to share bandwidth amongst the mirrors. Now that I have such a way, bandwidth restrictions have been completely lifted. Enjoy :) Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun May 17 13:40:11 2009 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 13:40:11 -0500 Subject: Looking for M4 Data 9905 manual or diagnostic program code listing References: <49FA7747.3060408@mail.msu.edu><056a01c9cdff$aee33450$c900a8c0@JWEST> <4A013D29.9060903@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <002c01c9d71e$e93b7b30$c900a8c0@JWEST> > Jay West wrote: >> I think I have a service manual for this one, let me know if you haven't >> gotten a response yet. And Josh wrote... > Yours is the first response I've seen -- if you do have the manual, I'd > love a scan of it (or just the diagnostics portions...) I went basement-diving for this stuff. I found the following documents/manuals: M4 data 8900, 9800, 9903 diagnostics quick reference Jumper config sheet for M4 9903 SCSI tape interface M4 9900 Series Tape Drive Field Service Manual I could have sworn that I gave these to Al to scan for bitsavers, but I don't see them up there. Think this is what you need for a 9905? Jay From js at cimmeri.com Sun May 17 14:40:36 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 14:40:36 -0500 Subject: Archiving RX50s with PUTR In-Reply-To: <1242584999.7676.111.camel@spasmo> References: <1242500188.7676.96.camel@spasmo> <200905161738.11839.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <1242551102.7676.103.camel@spasmo> <1242584999.7676.111.camel@spasmo> Message-ID: <4A106834.4000903@cimmeri.com> Going a bit OT from archiving RX50's... I wonder how MicroRSX differed from full RSX11-M, which itself was quite compact? It's truly amazing what was once done (in this case, by David Cutler) with so little memory. Back in 1999, Lars Poulsen wrote: "RSX-11D soon grew too large to fit on a 32KB (16KW) machine. David Cutler decided that it was possible to implement the same services with much less code, starting from scratch, and went on to do just that. In 18 months, he basically wrote and debugged the RSX-11M kernel. The system was released in source form, and with conditional assembly could be configured at compile time for any hardware from 8KW 11/05 to a full-house 11/45. Over the years I worked on RSX-11M based system integration, I eventually got to take a look at most of the modules of 11M, and Dave Cutler's name was in the header of each one! " Then, to hear Mr. Cutler talking as he does here, was quite a surprise: http://www.amd.com/us-en/Weblets/0,,7832_8366_7823_8718%5E7839,00.html jS Tobias Russell wrote: > I've put up the microRSX-11 distribution floppies for anyone who is > interested. They can be found here: > > http://www.pdp11.co.uk/2009/05/17/microrsx-11-rx50-distribution/ > > I've started to play with getting this up and running on simh. It seems > to boot the install floppy ok, although it hung after I selected install > from the menus. If anyone has better success, please let me know as I > would like to get this up and running. > > All the best, > Toby > From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun May 17 14:47:22 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 12:47:22 -0700 Subject: Looking for M4 Data 9905 manual or diagnostic program code listing In-Reply-To: <002c01c9d71e$e93b7b30$c900a8c0@JWEST> References: <49FA7747.3060408@mail.msu.edu><056a01c9cdff$aee33450$c900a8c0@JWEST> <4A013D29.9060903@mail.msu.edu> <002c01c9d71e$e93b7b30$c900a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <4A1069CA.7000907@mail.msu.edu> Jay West wrote: > > I went basement-diving for this stuff. I found the following > documents/manuals: > > M4 data 8900, 9800, 9903 diagnostics quick reference > Jumper config sheet for M4 9903 SCSI tape interface > M4 9900 Series Tape Drive Field Service Manual > > I could have sworn that I gave these to Al to scan for bitsavers, but > I don't see them up there. Think this is what you need for a 9905? Maybe... it might be close enough -- what's the diagnostic program # for setting drive options listed in the quick reference? I can try it on my 9905 and see if it lets me set parameters, if it does then it may be what I need... > > Jay > > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun May 17 15:05:29 2009 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 15:05:29 -0500 Subject: Looking for M4 Data 9905 manual or diagnostic program code listing References: <49FA7747.3060408@mail.msu.edu><056a01c9cdff$aee33450$c900a8c0@JWEST> <4A013D29.9060903@mail.msu.edu><002c01c9d71e$e93b7b30$c900a8c0@JWEST> <4A1069CA.7000907@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <004c01c9d72a$d3ce9820$c900a8c0@JWEST> Josh wrote.... > Maybe... it might be close enough -- what's the diagnostic program # for > setting drive options listed in the quick reference? I can try it on my > 9905 and see if it lets me set parameters, if it does then it may be > what I need... Program # 09 select high speed mode Program # 10 select low speed mode Program #27 select 800bpi Program #28 select 1600bpi Program #29 select 3200bpi (error code 98 means 3200 not available) Program #30 rewind tape Program #40 display prom rev No's Program #11 Set 'n' Program #18 write 'n' short records stop/start mode See if those are close.... Jay From djg at pdp8.net Sun May 17 15:00:32 2009 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 16:00:32 -0400 Subject: Tektronix 611 display manual Message-ID: <200905172000.n4HK0VX08459@h-68-165-246-86-static.mclnva23.covad.net> >I'm interested in knowing what the "remote program" connector shown on >the back of the display does. > I have the maintenance manual. Pin 1,2 and 14 Optional connection for X axis signal input. Disconnect the coaxial cable from the X axis BNC connector. Connect the center conductor of the coaxial cable to pin 1 and the shild to pins 2 and 4 (I think the 4 is a type, should be 14). Pin 3,15 and 16 Option connection for the Y axis signal input. Disconnect the coaxial cable from the Y axis BNC connector. Connect the center conductor of the coaxial cable to pin 15 and the shield to pins 3 and 16. Pin 4,5, and 17 Optional connector for the Z axis signal input. Disconnect the coaxial cable from the Z axis BNC connector. Connect the center conductor to pin 4 and the shild to pins 5 and 17. 6 NON-STORE is a function which is forced by grounding pin 6 to pin 19 (except when using the TEST SPIRAL switch). 7 ERASE INTERVAL is a signal output that goes from +10V to +0.3V during the interval of erasure. 8 WRITE THRU is accomplished by grounding pin 8 to pin 19 and exciting the Z axis. 18 ERASE FUNCTION is obtained by grounding pin 18 to pin 19. 19 PROGRAM GND is the ground reference for remotely connected external functions. 20 VIEW MODE is a function that is forced to exist as long as pin 20 is grounded to pin 19. From legalize at xmission.com Sun May 17 15:45:05 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 14:45:05 -0600 Subject: Tektronix 611 display manual In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 17 May 2009 16:00:32 -0400. <200905172000.n4HK0VX08459@h-68-165-246-86-static.mclnva23.covad.net> Message-ID: In article <200905172000.n4HK0VX08459 at h-68-165-246-86-static.mclnva23.covad.net>, djg at pdp8.net writes: > >I'm interested in knowing what the "remote program" connector shown on > >the back of the display does. > > > I have the maintenance manual. > [...] OK, so its not an RS-232 port. From that I'm left concluding that the picture showing the ASCII character set drawn on the display is just an example of drawing characters with a vector font. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun May 17 15:51:44 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 16:51:44 -0400 Subject: S-100 power supply transformer Message-ID: Hi! Does anyone know of an available transformer suitable for making an S-100 power supply? I need 120VAC input and 10VAC output and +/- 18VAC outputs. The best I solution I can find is two separate 80VA transformers; one parallel 10VAC output and another 36VCT output which can be configured for +/-18VAC outputs. I would prefer a single transformer rather than dual transformers because they are the most expensive part of a linear power supply. I know Northstar and Vector Graphic used similar dual output transformers but I cannot find anything like them after searching the usual vendors like Digikey, Mouser, Jameco, etc. Even transformer manufacturers don't seem to carry a stock product of this configuration although you can order custom units. Thanks in advance for any help. Your ideas greatly appreciated. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From tsw-cc at johana.com Sun May 17 16:00:38 2009 From: tsw-cc at johana.com (Tom Watson) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 14:00:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Touch tone pads and the like... Message-ID: <435245.1166.qm@web90401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Ethan Disck Wrote: > 35Y3D / Apr 1977 - 7 wires as previously described > 35AF4A / Jan 1081 - 11 wires as previously described Yes, there are a couple of different Touch Tone Pads floating around. The main difference between them is a couple of things. The ones with more wires are designed for use with SpeakerPhones ("List 3" and the like for those reading BSP's at home). The extra wires do a couple of things. One set mutes the speaker a bit (an extra set of contacts) when dialing so you won't get blasted with the tones on the speaker (normal use is to really send LOUD tones down to the central office). The other wires provide power to the oscillator when using it "hands free". Normal power is derived from the telephone line, but with speaker phones, it is a bit different. Hopefully this will explain things. My problem is that I have a couple of "solid state" (non-coil) pads (they use an IC) and they are only compatible with non speakerphone telephone sets. Here at my parents house, they have three 2565 sets, one which is with a speakerphone. I would like to replace the old single transistor L-C pads (they turn on tones a bit mushy) with more modern ones, but they don't have all the wires. One of these days I'll figure out how to make do. Ackk! another "project"... From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun May 17 16:47:19 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 14:47:19 -0700 Subject: Looking for M4 Data 9905 manual or diagnostic program code listing In-Reply-To: <004c01c9d72a$d3ce9820$c900a8c0@JWEST> References: <49FA7747.3060408@mail.msu.edu><056a01c9cdff$aee33450$c900a8c0@JWEST> <4A013D29.9060903@mail.msu.edu><002c01c9d71e$e93b7b30$c900a8c0@JWEST> <4A1069CA.7000907@mail.msu.edu> <004c01c9d72a$d3ce9820$c900a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <4A1085E7.2090304@mail.msu.edu> Jay West wrote: > Josh wrote.... >> Maybe... it might be close enough -- what's the diagnostic program # >> for setting drive options listed in the quick reference? I can try >> it on my 9905 and see if it lets me set parameters, if it does then >> it may be what I need... > > Program # 09 select high speed mode > Program # 10 select low speed mode > Program #27 select 800bpi > Program #28 select 1600bpi > Program #29 select 3200bpi (error code 98 means 3200 not available) > Program #30 rewind tape > Program #40 display prom rev No's > > Program #11 Set 'n' > Program #18 write 'n' short records stop/start mode > > See if those are close.... > > Jay > Just tried them, those seem to be correct for the 9905 as well. Huzzah! When you get a chance, if you could scan the quick reference I'd really appreciate it. I need the diagnostic codes to change internal drive settings... this drive used to be configured for the SCSI interface and I need to reconfig it so the Pertec interface works properly. Thanks again, Josh From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun May 17 16:55:04 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 14:55:04 -0700 Subject: Looking for Mac Color Classic motherboard In-Reply-To: <4A0F4957.27540.7D57F2A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4A0F90A2.5020701@mail.msu.edu>, <4A0F9667.4020801@tdh.com>, <4A0FA01F.9040908@mail.msu.edu> <4A0F4957.27540.7D57F2A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A1087B8.8020706@mail.msu.edu> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 16 May 2009 at 22:26, Josh Dersch wrote: > > >> It's not battery corrosion -- the board is literally rusted, all over >> :). The battery's nasty too, but that's only a small part of what's >> wrong with it. I suppose I can soak it in something, maybe scrub it >> with a toothbrush and see if that helps at all, but it's pretty bad. >> > > If the board is indeed toast, you've got nothing to lose by sticking > it in the dishwasher to see how much of the crud comes off... > > --Chuck > > I don't have a dishwasher :), but I carefully scrubbed it w/soap & water & a toothbrush (and a bit of WD-40 to help loosen the corrosion). It doesn't look as terrible now. I put a good PRAM battery in, and cleaned off the edge connectors. Unfortunately I get nothing when I power the system on. (It's a two-step process -- there's a main switch on the back, but the power key on the keyboard is what tells the system to power on.) Without the motherboard installed, the fan kicks in and the hard drive powers up, so I know the power supply is working (voltages seem to be fine.) The only diagnostic ref I can find is a really really basic board-swapping checklist. Any suggestions on what to check that is preventing the machine from powering on? Josh From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 17 20:06:03 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 18:06:03 -0700 Subject: S-100 power supply transformer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A10520B.1714.BDF6265@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 May 2009 at 16:51, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi! Does anyone know of an available transformer suitable for making > an S-100 power supply? I need 120VAC input and 10VAC output and +/- > 18VAC outputs. Hi Andrew, I'm not certain if the S100 linear PSU transformers were eve a standard item. The voltages are strange enough not to be common. The transformer in my Integrand box is certainly a custom job. MITS certainly used 2 transformers. FWIW, the Stancor P-6138 transformer used in the MITS Altair 8800 was a 7.5VCT unit and the 133P5 was something like 12.6VRMS. Less diode drop, the voltage on a capacitor-input filter, will approach 1.4xVRMS, so even with a 12.6VRMS transformer, you've got plenty of headroom for the regulators. If your supply voltage is too high, you'll pay for it in excess heat in the series (analogue) regulators. Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun May 17 20:15:27 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 18:15:27 -0700 Subject: S-100 power supply transformer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > From: lynchaj at yahoo.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: S-100 power supply transformer > Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 16:51:44 -0400 > > Hi! Does anyone know of an available transformer suitable for making an > S-100 power supply? I need 120VAC input and 10VAC output and +/- 18VAC > outputs. > > The best I solution I can find is two separate 80VA transformers; one > parallel 10VAC output and another 36VCT output which can be configured for > +/-18VAC outputs. > ---snip--- Hi What you want is an 8 volt and a 13.5 volt AC. You forget that the DC voltage is created from the peaks not the RMS average. You have to account for diode drop as well. That is how I got the numbers. I assumed full wave rectification and .6v per diode. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd1_052009 From steve at radiorobots.com Sun May 17 20:32:21 2009 From: steve at radiorobots.com (Steve Stutman) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 21:32:21 -0400 Subject: S-100 power supply transformer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A10BAA5.3020300@radiorobots.com> Hi, You might contact: http://www.antekinc.com/ for transformers. As Chuck mentioned, a full-wave bridge feeding a cap will give 1.4x the secondary output voltage. You can parallel similar output windings in series or parallel as long as you watch phase. Consider that back in the 70s linear regs like LM309 and 7805 needed fair overhead on the rail. Newer LDOs by def need less. If you want to scrounge, you might look in an older high current battery charger with a "6V" tap. At the risk of incurring purist wrath you might consider jumpering out the regs on some boards and using one of the many almost free linear or switching supplies to be found. Some boards had multiple regs at same rail IIRC; might be a decoupling prob. Haven't looked at S-100 since 1979, but believe you might have enough pins and copper. GL, Steve Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi! Does anyone know of an available transformer suitable for making an > S-100 power supply? I need 120VAC input and 10VAC output and +/- 18VAC > outputs. > > The best I solution I can find is two separate 80VA transformers; one > parallel 10VAC output and another 36VCT output which can be configured for > +/-18VAC outputs. > > I would prefer a single transformer rather than dual transformers because > they are the most expensive part of a linear power supply. > > I know Northstar and Vector Graphic used similar dual output transformers > but I cannot find anything like them after searching the usual vendors like > Digikey, Mouser, Jameco, etc. Even transformer manufacturers don't seem to > carry a stock product of this configuration although you can order custom > units. > > Thanks in advance for any help. Your ideas greatly appreciated. > > Thanks and have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch > > From billdeg at degnanco.com Sun May 17 20:59:21 2009 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B Degnan) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 21:59:21 -0400 Subject: Looking for a Datac 1000 SBC Message-ID: <4A10C0F9.1020006@degnanco.com> I am looking for a DATAC 1000 SBC. Anyone have one? These were popular with members of the Philadelphia Area Computer Society (PACS) in 1977-1978. I would like to learn more about what kinds of projects people did with them. Maybe get a few pictures. I have a few articles on this trainer/SBC but not much else. I have already spoken with some PACS members about it, but none has one. Bill From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 17 21:51:15 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 19:51:15 -0700 Subject: S-100 power supply transformer In-Reply-To: <4A10BAA5.3020300@radiorobots.com> References: , <4A10BAA5.3020300@radiorobots.com> Message-ID: <4A106AB3.7063.C3FEB1A@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 May 2009 at 21:32, Steve Stutman wrote: > Consider that back in the 70s linear regs like LM309 and 7805 needed > fair overhead on the rail. > > Newer LDOs by def need less. While I can understand that using a 78xx/79xx vintage regulator might be important for the sake of accuracy, I'd be sort tempted to use modern monolithic switching regulators if one wanted to preserve the S100 "on board" regulation. No more "scorched PCB" or big honking heatsinks--and less conversion of amps into heat. --Chuck From js at cimmeri.com Sun May 17 22:02:31 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 22:02:31 -0500 Subject: S-100 power supply transformer In-Reply-To: <4A106AB3.7063.C3FEB1A@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4A10BAA5.3020300@radiorobots.com> <4A106AB3.7063.C3FEB1A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A10CFC7.1050407@cimmeri.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 17 May 2009 at 21:32, Steve Stutman wrote: > > >> Consider that back in the 70s linear regs like LM309 and 7805 needed >> fair overhead on the rail. >> >> Newer LDOs by def need less. >> > > While I can understand that using a 78xx/79xx vintage regulator might > be important for the sake of accuracy, I'd be sort tempted to use > modern monolithic switching regulators if one wanted to preserve the > S100 "on board" regulation. > > No more "scorched PCB" or big honking heatsinks--and less conversion > of amps into heat. > > --Chuck The problem with the onboard regulation is that many of those original regulators, though they might be working, are actually no longer any good. Not sure if it's just age, or it's a lifetime of certain ones running too near max, but in all the ones I've replaced, I've cut the amperage draw of the board way down, sometimes in half. If they're going to be replaced *anyway*, then makes sense just to remove them and their associated, equally suspect tantalums/aecs altogether. In my IMSAI, I feed each board power from a dedicated, pluggable line running to it... ground is still done through the connector. jS From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun May 17 22:21:38 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 20:21:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: S-100 power supply transformer In-Reply-To: <4A10CFC7.1050407@cimmeri.com> References: , <4A10BAA5.3020300@radiorobots.com> <4A106AB3.7063.C3FEB1A@cclist.sydex.com> <4A10CFC7.1050407@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 May 2009, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > In my IMSAI, I feed each board power from a dedicated, pluggable line > running to it... ground is still done through the connector. What did you do with the power feeds on the backplane? Got any pics? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun May 17 22:55:43 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 20:55:43 -0700 Subject: S-100 power supply transformer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > From: dkelvey at hotmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: S-100 power supply transformer > Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 18:15:27 -0700 > > > > > ---------------------------------------- >> From: lynchaj at yahoo.com >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: S-100 power supply transformer >> Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 16:51:44 -0400 >> >> Hi! Does anyone know of an available transformer suitable for making an >> S-100 power supply? I need 120VAC input and 10VAC output and +/- 18VAC >> outputs. >> >> The best I solution I can find is two separate 80VA transformers; one >> parallel 10VAC output and another 36VCT output which can be configured for >> +/-18VAC outputs. >> > ---snip--- > > Hi > What you want is an 8 volt and a 13.5 volt AC. You forget > that the DC voltage is created from the peaks not the RMS > average. You have to account for diode drop as well. > That is how I got the numbers. I assumed full wave rectification > and .6v per diode. > Dwight > Hi I forgot to mention. You need to derate the transformer as well. The problem is that the current flows when the voltage is the highest ( or close to it ). The math is a little complicated but it means you need to increase the rating of the transformer by at least 1.414. If you can't find a transformer with the right windings, I recommend looking at toroidal transformers. These can easily have turns added to increase or buck the voltage of the secondary. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail? has ever-growing storage! Don?t worry about storage limits. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage1_052009 From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 17 22:59:40 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 20:59:40 -0700 Subject: S-100 power supply transformer In-Reply-To: <4A10CFC7.1050407@cimmeri.com> References: , <4A106AB3.7063.C3FEB1A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A10CFC7.1050407@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <4A107ABC.2740.C7E65EA@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 May 2009 at 22:02, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > The problem with the onboard regulation is that many of those original > regulators, though they might be working, are actually no longer any > good. Not sure if it's just age, or it's a lifetime of certain ones > running too near max, but in all the ones I've replaced, I've cut the > amperage draw of the board way down, sometimes in half. I suspect that it's a combination of high-power use and the quality of the TO-220 packaging back then. I recall that on some MITS boards, (was it the 4K DRAM board?) bridging the regulator with a power resistor was done to keep the temperature down to that of a slow bonfire. The early 2102-based SRAM boards were pretty power hungry too. Cheers, Chuck From bqt at softjar.se Sun May 17 04:17:50 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 11:17:50 +0200 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A0FD63E.90609@softjar.se> Chris Elmquist wrote: > I may have missed some facts earlier in this thread-- but does the system > obey hardware flow control such as CTS? ie, if CTS is low, will it be > blocked from transmitting? If that is obeyed by all of your OS and > software, then it is not hard to build a microcontroller that would sit > between the system and the terminal, adding the delays you need on > while buffering for and hardware flow controlling back toward the PDP-8. In general, when talking about DEC equipment, the answer to that question is *always* no, for the simple fact that DEC didn't do hardware flow control. Hardware flow control is actually against the RS-232 spec, and DEC didn't abuse standards (unlike most other companies). (And to make it clear: hardware flow control is definitely not possible towards a PDP8) Johnny > Chris > > > On Thursday (05/14/2009 at 03:04AM +0200), Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> > Hi, >> > >>> >> I completely mis-understood the source of your troubles. >> > Oh. >> > The VT05 terminal operates at speeds from 110 baud to 2400 baud, >> > selectable with a rotary switch in the back (my unit is currently missing >> > a counter ic to generate 110baud, but...). >> > So far so good. The problem is, that when you want to operate the VT05 at >> > speeds higher than 300 baud, you have to wait a certain amount of time >> > after a line feed character or cursor positioning command. This is >> > usually done by inserting zero fill characters (4 at 2400 baud) after the >> > critical commands. If you don't obey this rule, the VT05 has not >> > completed changing the line when you send the next character. This is a >> > bit like a too slow cr on a teletype - funny but true. >> > So my wish was to modify OS/8 so far that it generates those fill characters. >> > The TTY: handler is also capable of correctly doing this for me. But many >> > other programs - as the OS/8 keyboard monitor itself - use direct IO >> > commands to read from and write to the terminal. >> > So one would have to patch many programs. In case of the keyboard >> > monitor, I don't know if there is any room left to put such a code in. >> > And I don't know how to reassemble and correctly install a new keyboard >> > monitor from scratch. >> > So all I can do is to run the VT05 at 300 baud. Or get the advances >> > serial interface (see other posting). >> > Did this illustrate the problem? >> > >> > Best wishes, >> > Philipp :-) >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > http://www.hachti.de > > -- Chris Elmquist -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Sun May 17 04:24:22 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 11:24:22 +0200 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 69, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A0FD7C6.7090303@softjar.se> cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Message: 26 > Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 12:31:25 -0400 > From: Ethan Dicks > Subject: Re: DEC ST506 Interface Adapter Part No 54-17003-01 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 5:51 PM, Julian Skidmore > wrote: >>> >> I thought it could only format "known" disk types, not arbitrary disks >>> >> (a firmware limitation in the formatter application, not a hardware >>> >> limitation). >> > >> > Surely, it's possible to hack an RQDX3 controller's ROM to support arbitrary geometries? > > The geometries aren't in the RQDXn ROMs - the formatter application > writes them to the disk during the formatter process. > > There are three VAX formatters I know of - the ROMs on a VS/uV2000, > the Customer Runnable Diagnostics (CRD) and the Field Service > diagnostics. > > I know the CRD formatter only allows you to select known drives from a > menu table and the Field Service formatter allows you to enter > arbitrary values (i.e., has a menu plus a fill-in page). The > ROM-based formatter on the VS/uV2000 was the one I appear to have > mis-remembered the capabilities of. > > No hacking of the RQDX3 is required, just selection of the right > formatter application. However, all information is not just located on the disk either. The RQDX1 and RQDX2 use a format that is incompatible with the RQDX3. In order to use an RD52 (for instance) that has been formatted on a RQDX2 on a RQDX3, you need to reformat it... Also, an RQDX1 or RQDX2 cannot control an RD54. No matter what formatting program you use. You need the RQDX3 for that. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From philip at axeside.co.uk Sun May 17 10:24:15 2009 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 16:24:15 +0100 Subject: Tektronix 4097 GPIB 8" Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <4A0DB993.7050505@sbcglobal.net> References: <200905151516.n4FFGml07992@h-68-165-246-86-static.mclnva23.covad.net> <4A0DB993.7050505@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <4A102C1F.2080707@axeside.co.uk> Bob Rosenbloom confessed: > In any case, I have ten of the 4907 units themselves so if you actually > have a bad ROM, I'm sure one of my units > must have good ones. You have HOW MANY? I have been looking for a 4907 for at least twelve years, and I've never seen any evidence that any even survived! Are any of them for sale? Which side of the Atlantic are you/they on? What would you like to receive in trade? Sky's the limit... Philip. From bqt at softjar.se Sun May 17 12:39:33 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 19:39:33 +0200 Subject: Archiving RX50s with PUTR In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A104BD5.2040902@softjar.se> Tobias Russell wrote: > Thanks for the advice. I had already started by the time I ready your > reply so I have images for now, although it would be easy to go the > extra step by mounting my images and extracting the individual files. I > might have a hunt to see if there are any linux/unix utilities out there > so I can automate exracting the individual files from RT-11 images. Count me as a voice against extracting the individual files. It's way better to make copies of the whole floppies. You can easily do the extraction afterwards if you have a program that understands the file system. And it will preserve the actual floppies as well, which can then be recreated by someone who don't have the tools either. Also, if you have some bug in the extraction software, you still have the original around to repeat the process if you want to. Also, there are file systems that PUTR don't understand, not to mention that there can be issues with preserving some kind of information when extracting files to another type of file system. > > If anyone is interested, the fruits of my labours can be seen here: > > http://www.pdp11.co.uk/2009/05/17/rt-11-rx50-disk-images/ > > Quite a few of the files probably already exist in other archives but > some of the stuff is probably new. I've not had a chance yet to look > through the disks in detail but will annotate up the contents when I get > a chance. Nice. Keep up the good work. > I've just been given a set of microRSX 1.0 distribution RX50s so I will > put those up next. That's something you don't want to point PUTR towards... Johnny > > Thanks, > Toby > > > > On Sat, 2009-05-16 at 17:38 -0700, Lyle Bickley wrote: >> > Toby, >> > >> > On Saturday 16 May 2009, Tobias Russell wrote: >>> > > I have a large box of RX50 disks that I would like to archive onto >>> > > modern media to ensure they are preserved. I've built up a machine with >>> > > a 5.25" floppy drive and install DOS and PUTR. >>> > > >>> > > Is the best method to archive them to: >>> > > >>> > > MOUNT B: /FOREIGN /RX50 >>> > > >>> > > followed by: >>> > > >>> > > COPY/DEV/FILE B: [filename] >>> > > >>> > > for each of the disks I insert? >>> > > >>> > > I was pondering whether I should use the /BINARY flag on the copy, but >>> > > I've not seen this mentioned on other webpages I have read. >> > >> > Since PUTR "understands" multiple filetypes, I have found it is much better to >> > save the contents of each floppy (RX50) to a separate directory - but NOT as an >> > image file, but rather as individual files. That way you can later use PUTR to >> > create logical media of any form - say RL02, RX01, etc. from the captured >> > files. >> > >> > Assuming drive "B:" is your 5.25" drive, and the OS is RT11 you would do the >> > following: >> > >> > MOUNT B: /RT11 /RX50 >> > then >> > COPY B:*.* . >> > and you will have captured the individual files that were on the RX50. >> > >> > When you reverse the process to recreate a diskette (RX50, RX23, RX01, etc.) be >> > sure to use a SET B: type; i.e., SET B: RX23 >> > then >> > FORMAT B: /RT11 /RX23 (or whatever) >> > then >> > COPY *.* B: >> > >> > NOTE: Be absolutely sure to SET COPY BINARY before you do anything. For some >> > unknown reason, the PUTR default is ASCII. (I have a SET COPY BINARY in PUTR's >> > initialization file - to be sure I never forget to do it ;-) >> > >> > Cheers, >> > Lyle >> > -- >> > Lyle Bickley >> > Bickley Consulting West Inc. >> > http://bickleywest.com >> > "Black holes are were God is dividing by zero" >> > > -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun May 17 17:52:44 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 18:52:44 -0400 Subject: S-100 power supply transformer Message-ID: <0KJT00B3N8TIOO98@vms173019.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: S-100 power supply transformer > From: "Andrew Lynch" > Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 16:51:44 -0400 > To: > >Hi! Does anyone know of an available transformer suitable for making an >S-100 power supply? I need 120VAC input and 10VAC output and +/- 18VAC >outputs. > >The best I solution I can find is two separate 80VA transformers; one >parallel 10VAC output and another 36VCT output which can be configured for >+/-18VAC outputs. Try closer to 8V RMS rectified that will be more depending on load. Same to the other two. Look up the calulations and see. FYI you also talking for the 8V line 60,000 to 150,000microfarads (at 15-25V) and the other two more like 10,000 to 20,000 (at 30V min) microfarad capacitors.. Also consider a 240 primary to 16V which on 120 will do 8V then. However common (standard) voltages are 6.3, 12.6, 25.4 and 48 then there are control transformers like 10V, 18V and 24 and sometimes 36. >I would prefer a single transformer rather than dual transformers because >they are the most expensive part of a linear power supply. You will have better luck with two but you may get lucky. FYI the early Altair used two. > >I know Northstar and Vector Graphic used similar dual output transformers >but I cannot find anything like them after searching the usual vendors like >Digikey, Mouser, Jameco, etc. Even transformer manufacturers don't seem to >carry a stock product of this configuration although you can order custom >units. Thos are honking big and intended for the then loaded bus of more that a few cards. We talking a +8V good for 25-35A. More practical systems especially those osing newer 64K (on one card) memories tended to require far less power. Try digikey and mouser. In this day and age those are not common and during the golden age of S100 they were still a bit oddball and not cheap. Allison > >Thanks in advance for any help. Your ideas greatly appreciated. > >Thanks and have a nice day! > >Andrew Lynch From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon May 18 02:12:30 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 04:12:30 -0300 Subject: S-100 power supply transformer References: , <4A10BAA5.3020300@radiorobots.com><4A106AB3.7063.C3FEB1A@cclist.sydex.com> <4A10CFC7.1050407@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <1ff901c9d788$1f6cfc10$755619bb@desktaba> > The problem with the onboard regulation is that many of those original > regulators, though they might be working, are actually no longer any > good. Not sure if it's just age, or it's a lifetime of certain ones > running too near max, but in all the ones I've replaced, I've cut the > amperage draw of the board way down, sometimes in half. > If they're going to be replaced *anyway*, then makes sense just to > remove them and their associated, equally suspect tantalums/aecs > altogether. In my IMSAI, I feed each board power from a dedicated, > pluggable line running to it... ground is still done through the > connector. The problem is compatibility. Imagine that each S-100 board you would connect on your system has to be modified. And every board that will be sold, lended or given away, will ALSO have to be modified. Why not just change the regulator for a newer one? They are so cheap nowadays :o) From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon May 18 02:20:41 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 04:20:41 -0300 Subject: S-100 power supply transformer References: , <4A106AB3.7063.C3FEB1A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A10CFC7.1050407@cimmeri.com> <4A107ABC.2740.C7E65EA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <202801c9d789$2dad3ff0$755619bb@desktaba> > I suspect that it's a combination of high-power use and the quality > of the TO-220 packaging back then. I recall that on some MITS > boards, (was it the 4K DRAM board?) bridging the regulator with a > power resistor was done to keep the temperature down to that of a > slow bonfire. Maybe old boards can be retrofitted with low-power chips? :o) From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon May 18 05:01:56 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 06:01:56 -0400 Subject: Problem with an old Tandy CM-4 monitor References: , <4A106AB3.7063.C3FEB1A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A10CFC7.1050407@cimmeri.com> <4A107ABC.2740.C7E65EA@cclist.sydex.com> <202801c9d789$2dad3ff0$755619bb@desktaba> Message-ID: <81258A8C0F184DCBBC184174E047CE99@dell8300> A while ago I got a Tandy 1000 system with a CM-4 monitor. The system worked fine for 20 minutes and then the monitor died. So far I havn't seen anything that looks burnt on the inside, but the tube doesn't light up when you provide power and there is a crackling noise going on. Is there a common issue with these old CGA monitors, and is this fixable without gutting a working one? From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon May 18 05:24:40 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 12:24:40 +0200 Subject: Problem with an old Tandy CM-4 monitor In-Reply-To: <81258A8C0F184DCBBC184174E047CE99@dell8300> References: , <4A106AB3.7063.C3FEB1A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A10CFC7.1050407@cimmeri.com> <4A107ABC.2740.C7E65EA@cclist.sydex.com><202801c9d789$2dad3ff0$755619bb@desktaba> <81258A8C0F184DCBBC184174E047CE99@dell8300> Message-ID: <91ABEFB586AD42FAB12F607EC7EB5ABD@xp1800> Teo, First check the solder joints for bad soldering like very good at all power consuming components because due to temp./length variations the solders are getting lose. If the CRT isn't glowing you should also check the powersupply and the hor.line-circuit. Most time the switching transistor (you'll measure a shortcut between the legs after you desoldered it) or a capacitor(elco) dies. And please be carefull not all old monitors have a discharge resistor placed over the high-voltage elco's. -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Teo Zenios > Verzonden: maandag 18 mei 2009 12:02 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Problem with an old Tandy CM-4 monitor > > A while ago I got a Tandy 1000 system with a CM-4 monitor. > The system worked fine for 20 minutes and then the monitor > died. So far I havn't seen anything that looks burnt on the > inside, but the tube doesn't light up when you provide power > and there is a crackling noise going on. Is there a common > issue with these old CGA monitors, and is this fixable > without gutting a working one? > > > > From rick at rickmurphy.net Mon May 18 05:26:56 2009 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 06:26:56 -0400 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? In-Reply-To: <4A0FD63E.90609@softjar.se> References: <4A0FD63E.90609@softjar.se> Message-ID: <200905181026.n4IAQv82018038@rickmurphy.net> At 05:17 AM 5/17/2009, Johnny Billquist wrote: >Chris Elmquist wrote: > >>I may have missed some facts earlier in this thread-- but does the >>system >>obey hardware flow control such as CTS? ie, if CTS is low, will it be >>blocked from transmitting? If that is obeyed by all of your OS and >>software, then it is not hard to build a microcontroller that would sit >>between the system and the terminal, adding the delays you need on >>while buffering for and hardware flow controlling back toward the PDP-8. > >In general, when talking about DEC equipment, the answer to that >question is *always* no, for the simple fact that DEC didn't do >hardware flow control. Hardware flow control is actually against the >RS-232 spec, and DEC didn't abuse standards (unlike most other companies). And, of course, there's a pretty good chance that this VT05 is connected via 20ma, not RS232. (Assumption based on the fact that there's an easy fix in the KL8-JA; given that this hasn't been used to fix the problem, it's probably not an omnibus computer. Pre-8/E serial devices were often current loop.) -Rick From mike at fenz.net Mon May 18 05:35:50 2009 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 22:35:50 +1200 Subject: Apple II Plus power supply strangeness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A113A06.90300@fenz.net> Tony Duell wrote: > This PSU seems to have a crowbar circuit (SCR Q5, zener CR20, etc), but > amazingly it seems to be connected to the 12V output. This is, IMHO, > ridiculous. I have a few ideas as to why it could be considered a bad thing, but I'd be interested to hear more details! > When a PSU output sits at about 1V, I often suspect that a > crowbar is triggereing, which will shut the supply down, thus enabling > the crowbar to turn off, the cycle then repeats. So what you see is an > average of the 'too high' and 'shorted' output voltages. > OK - I'll check the outputs with the oscilloscope when it's in that mode, and see if I can see a waveform that looks like that. > If the output capacitors have high ESR (a likely problem due to old age), > there will be spikes on the output, sometimes around twice the normal > I've grabbed new replacements for all the capacitors, apart from the big high-voltage input-side ones. One of the output capacitors has shrunk its heat-shrink wrapping quite considerably, so I'm guessing that one has been running quite hot. Might as well replace them all though - the replacements only cost me NZ$10 (something like 3 pounds, maybe US$5, at a guess) so it's hardly breaking the bank. Once I have the power supply behaving more sanely, I'll feel more confident in trying to track down any further logic board problems. Thanks for the suggestions, and also to Chris H for the patent info. I haven't had a chance to read it in depth yet, but I will. Mike From bqt at softjar.se Mon May 18 05:00:06 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 12:00:06 +0200 Subject: MicroRSX (was: Re: Archiving RX50s with PUTR) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A1131A6.2070807@softjar.se> "js at cimmeri.com" wrote: > Going a bit OT from archiving RX50's... I wonder how MicroRSX differed > from full RSX11-M, which itself was quite compact? Don't be fooled by the "Micro" in MicroRSX. It is a referral to that the OS was custom adapted for the MicroPDP-11. MicroRSX is actually rather big. It's a customized version of RSX-11M-PLUS for a specific set of hardware. As such, it is delivered pre-compiled, and you cannot run SYSGEN. Instead, it has a configuration program that runs on boot, which can adapt it to the specific needs you have. But the possibility of adaptations are limited. You don't get any sources, and if I remember right, you don't even get MACRO-11 or TKB with it. Those were options you'd have to pay extra for. It's more of a turnkey system for a specific task. You bought a MicroPDP-11, MicroRSX, some application that you wanted to use, and just used it. > It's truly amazing what was once done (in this case, by David Cutler) > with so little memory. Back in 1999, Lars Poulsen wrote: > > "RSX-11D soon grew too large to fit on a 32KB (16KW) machine. > David Cutler decided that it was possible to implement the same > services with much less code, starting from scratch, and went on > to do just that. In 18 months, he basically wrote and debugged > the RSX-11M kernel. The system was released in source form, and > with conditional assembly could be configured at compile time > for any hardware from 8KW 11/05 to a full-house 11/45. > Over the years I worked on RSX-11M based system integration, > I eventually got to take a look at most of the modules of 11M, > and Dave Cutler's name was in the header of each one! " Yeah, RSX-11M is really nice, small and beautiful. And yes, Cutlers name is all over the sources. RSX-11M-PLUS, which is a superset of -11M also share the same code base. Johnny > > Then, to hear Mr. Cutler talking as he does here, was quite a surprise: > > http://www.amd.com/us-en/Weblets/0,,7832_8366_7823_8718%5E7839,00.html > > jS > > > > > Tobias Russell wrote: >> > I've put up the microRSX-11 distribution floppies for anyone who is >> > interested. They can be found here: >> > >> > http://www.pdp11.co.uk/2009/05/17/microrsx-11-rx50-distribution/ >> > >> > I've started to play with getting this up and running on simh. It seems >> > to boot the install floppy ok, although it hung after I selected install >> > from the menus. If anyone has better success, please let me know as I >> > would like to get this up and running. >> > >> > All the best, >> > Toby -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From doug at stillhq.com Mon May 18 07:05:06 2009 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 22:05:06 +1000 Subject: Apple II Plus power supply strangeness In-Reply-To: <4A113A06.90300@fenz.net> References: <4A113A06.90300@fenz.net> Message-ID: <4A114EF2.1070909@stillhq.com> > I've grabbed new replacements for all the capacitors, apart from the > big high-voltage input-side ones. One of the output capacitors has > shrunk its heat-shrink wrapping quite considerably, so I'm guessing > that one has been running quite hot. Might as well replace them all > though - the replacements only cost me NZ$10 (something like 3 pounds, > maybe US$5, at a guess) so it's hardly breaking the bank. > Be careful with the high voltage ones in the input filter before the diode rectifier. (A couple of uF, 400 or so volts AC rated - encased in a clear plastic case) I had an apple 2 recently that had one of these fail spectacularly - tons of brown goo that smelt of cigarette smoke (tar?) spewed forth. It was hard to remove. But It is happier now. Also - regarding the drop the 12V rail - isn't that the one that is monitored to regulate the switcher? Does anybody have the schematic for these PSUs? Doug From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 18 09:33:04 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 08:33:04 -0600 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? In-Reply-To: <4A0FD63E.90609@softjar.se> References: <4A0FD63E.90609@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4A1171A0.7000508@jetnet.ab.ca> Johnny Billquist wrote: > (And to make it clear: hardware flow control is definitely not possible > towards a PDP8) I use it all the time ... serial device is turned *ON* or *OFF*. :) What is needed is the reader run relay more likely than not. > Johnny Ben. From js at cimmeri.com Mon May 18 10:13:41 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 10:13:41 -0500 Subject: S-100 power supply transformer In-Reply-To: References: , <4A10BAA5.3020300@radiorobots.com> <4A106AB3.7063.C3FEB1A@cclist.sydex.com> <4A10CFC7.1050407@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <4A117B25.2080002@cimmeri.com> >> In my IMSAI, I feed each board power from a dedicated, pluggable line >> running to it... ground is still done through the connector. > > David Griffith wrote: What did you do with the power feeds on the > backplane? Got any pics? The original backplane wiring is left intact... so unconverted cards will still work. I do have a photo. Email me direct at js at cimmeri.com. > Alexandre Souza wrote: The problem is compatibility. Imagine that > each S-100 board you would connect on your system has to be modified. > And every board that will be sold, lended or given away, will ALSO > have to be modified. > > Why not just change the regulator for a newer one? They are so > cheap nowadays :o) I get around the compatibility issue by leaving the original backplane power in place. Btw, this regulator failure problem is only showing up on the 5V line. I've not had any issue with the 12V regulators. So, I run a separate unregulated 8V wire from the primary PSU over to my regulator board. This board has the new 5V regulated rail. Wires from cards that have been converted plug in here. I don't have a lot of cards, so conversion is not a big deal... but I find converting the card easier than replacing its regulator + associated caps. You can just replace the regulator... but the job is not just the regulator... it's also all the supporting caps. If the design overstressed the regulator to begin with, then you are back where you started with a high heat situation. jS From mike at brickfieldspark.org Mon May 18 10:24:00 2009 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 16:24:00 +0100 Subject: 35KSR References: <4A0FD63E.90609@softjar.se> <4A1171A0.7000508@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <000301c9d7cc$aba7c950$961ca8c0@mss.local> Does anybody have info on what the weight of a Teletype 35KSR is ?, I'm looking into the costs of shipping against going and getting it myself. Have found that at 33 with stand is 100lb so it's obviousley more than that. Mike. From mtapley at swri.edu Mon May 18 10:37:18 2009 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 10:37:18 -0500 Subject: Help contacting: Michael Green In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello all, I lost contact in the middle part (at the most embarassing moment) of a deal for a Mac IIci with a Michael Green, last known email (account no longer exists) michaelgreen42 at comcast.net last known address 4409 67th Ave. E Fife Wa 98424 but said to be moving shortly. Any assistance reestablishing contact would be well appreciated. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From trag at io.com Mon May 18 10:48:57 2009 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 10:48:57 -0500 (CDT) Subject: e: Looking for Mac Color Classic motherboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <283524cadfe9cc2e01ed0f38427bcfb5.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> > Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 22:26:55 -0700 > From: Josh Dersch > It's not battery corrosion -- the board is literally rusted, all over > :). The battery's nasty too, but that's only a small part of what's > wrong with it. I suppose I can soak it in something, maybe scrub it > with a toothbrush and see if that helps at all, but it's pretty bad. > > As Cameron pointed out, there are other boards that will work with some > modification, I'll keep my eyes out for those as well... You might also post a WTB on the Trading Post forum of 68kmla.net. That's where many of the die-hard 68K preservers hang out. Jeff Walther From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon May 18 10:51:37 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 10:51:37 -0500 Subject: Help contacting: Michael Green In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6dbe3c380905180851q53ca4eabif2daf571c230326e@mail.gmail.com> I had been working on a deal with him for an apple iigs and some other things. I sent him some money though paypal, then nothing happened. Last I heard he had moved to Austin Texas. I'm not sure whether that's true or not. After 30 days I disputed the transaction and paypal sent me back the money which was enough to get him to respond to my emails. He sent me an apologetic email and said he still had the computer if I was still interested. (I'm not) The email address you have is the same one I have which he used to send me the email from Austin. I'm not sure if they have comcast in Austin, but I sort of doubt it. I can think of a few technical scenarios where this is possible. But my guess is that he still lives in Washington. brian On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 10:37 AM, Mark Tapley wrote: > Hello all, > ? ? ? ?I lost contact in the middle part (at the most embarassing moment) of > a deal for a Mac IIci with a Michael Green, last known email (account no > longer exists) > > ? ? ? ?michaelgreen42 at comcast.net > > last known address > > ? ? ? ?4409 67th Ave. E Fife Wa 98424 > > but said to be moving shortly. Any assistance reestablishing contact would > be well appreciated. > -- > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Mark ? ? 210-379-4635 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Large Asteroids headed toward planets > inhabited by beings that don't have > technology adequate to stop them: > > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 18 11:28:48 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 12:28:48 -0400 Subject: Re-installing a TouchTone keypad in an ASR-33 In-Reply-To: <4A0EFC37.522.6A83E50@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4A0EFC37.522.6A83E50@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <16A8A410-3176-4887-8EB9-FAF464EF136B@neurotica.com> On May 16, 2009, at 8:47 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> ... and the schematic... >> >> http://www.porticus.org/bell/images/35_dial.gif > > One of my favorite schematics! Generating DTMF with a single > transistor. ISTR that the 113 modem was equally sparse in active > devices, but I can't find a schematic anywhere. I'm not a telephony geek, but this comment prompted me to go look at that schematic. That's a really neat little circuit. What are the four odd components? The symbols sorta look like DIACs. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From george at rachors.com Mon May 18 11:58:42 2009 From: george at rachors.com (George L. Rachor Jr.) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 09:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sun Ultra 10 needed In-Reply-To: <283524cadfe9cc2e01ed0f38427bcfb5.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> References: <283524cadfe9cc2e01ed0f38427bcfb5.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> Message-ID: <20090518095516.S14393@racsys.rachors.com> I know some folks that are in need of aquiring a Sun Ultra 10 workstation as a replacement for one that is being used as an instrument controller. The need is in the Portland Oregon Area. Do you have one in reasonable running condition and how much might it take for you to part with it? Are their trustworthy businesses that I could purchase one from? Best Regards, George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george at rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 18 12:32:29 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 10:32:29 -0700 Subject: Re-installing a TouchTone keypad in an ASR-33 In-Reply-To: <16A8A410-3176-4887-8EB9-FAF464EF136B@neurotica.com> References: , <4A0EFC37.522.6A83E50@cclist.sydex.com>, <16A8A410-3176-4887-8EB9-FAF464EF136B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A11393D.2667.5DA14C@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 May 2009 at 12:28, Dave McGuire wrote: > I'm not a telephony geek, but this comment prompted me to go look > at that schematic. That's a really neat little circuit. What are > the four odd components? The symbols sorta look like DIACs. Varistors. Telco stuff was usually silicon-carbide rather than metal oxide. Although they were used for circuit protection, and amplitude- limiting (look inside the receiver of any 2500 series desk set), they were also used for circuit stabilization, which is, I think, the application in the dial circuit. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 18 12:34:27 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 18:34:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? In-Reply-To: <4A0FD63E.90609@softjar.se> from "Johnny Billquist" at May 17, 9 11:17:50 am Message-ID: > In general, when talking about DEC equipment, the answer to that > question is *always* no, for the simple fact that DEC didn't do hardware > flow control. Hardware flow control is actually against the RS-232 spec, > and DEC didn't abuse standards (unlike most other companies). This reminds me of a comment I made about the HP82164 (HPIL to RS232 interface). That thing follows the RS232 standard to the letter (for example, it correctly handles the cotnrol lines in half duplex mode). It's just a pity that nobody else does :-). Getting it to work with some RS232 devices is 'interesting'.. > (And to make it clear: hardware flow control is definitely not possible > towards a PDP8) 'Nothing is impossible except skiing through a revolving door' :-) More seriously,. I would have thought you could make hardware modifications ot the serial interface PCB, possibly to gate ome of the ready signals with the flow control input. Or (in this case), detect the CR (or is it LF that's the problem?) and then hold the ready line deasseted either for enough time for the VT05 to complete its operation or until it gets some ecternal acknowledge signal. No, I am not suggesting this is a sensible solution to the problem,but it is _possible_ -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 18 12:47:09 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 18:47:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Problem with an old Tandy CM-4 monitor In-Reply-To: <81258A8C0F184DCBBC184174E047CE99@dell8300> from "Teo Zenios" at May 18, 9 06:01:56 am Message-ID: > > A while ago I got a Tandy 1000 system with a CM-4 monitor. The system worked > fine for 20 minutes and then the monitor died. So far I havn't seen anything > that looks burnt on the inside, but the tube doesn't light up when you > provide power and there is a crackling noise going on. Is there a common When you say 'The tube doesn't light up' do you mean that the screen is dark, or that there's (also) no glow from the heater in the electron gun at the back of the CRT? And is this crackling noise there all the time the monitor is turned on? > issue with these old CGA monitors, and is this fixable without gutting a > working one? The most common problem that's _not_ fixable without a 'spares unit' is a breakdown of the horizontal output transformer (line output transformer over here :-)). This often does result in a continuous crackling (small sparks from the EHT supply to chassis, etc). It'll result in a totally dark screen, it may also remove the heater supply. But it could be a lot of other things. Many faults result in a totally dark screen. 'Crackling noises' may come from ther sections of the monitor nosies are remarkable hard to describe. What I would do is pull the case and check the CRT electrode voltages (watch out for the focus pin which may have around 5kV on it!). Check the EHT at the anode connector if you have a suitable meter (expect around 25kV here on a colour CRT). And work back from there. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 18 12:51:58 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 18:51:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple II Plus power supply strangeness In-Reply-To: <4A113A06.90300@fenz.net> from "Mike van Bokhoven" at May 18, 9 10:35:50 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > This PSU seems to have a crowbar circuit (SCR Q5, zener CR20, etc), but > > amazingly it seems to be connected to the 12V output. This is, IMHO, > > ridiculous. > I have a few ideas as to why it could be considered a bad thing, but > I'd be interested to hear more details! There's nothing inherently bad about putting a crowbar circuit on a 12V supply, but in a microcomputer, the 5V rail is the 'important one' in that if it goes high it wipes out just about every chip in the machine whereas the 12V rail is used by the RAM and not a lot else. So it makes a lot of sense to sense the 5V rail for any protection circuits (like the crowbar). Having the crowbar short out the 12V rail (rather than the 5V one) is quite common in that the former can supply a lower current so it's easier to short out, and shorting any output will shut down a SMPSU. > > > When a PSU output sits at about 1V, I often suspect that a > > crowbar is triggereing, which will shut the supply down, thus enabling > > the crowbar to turn off, the cycle then repeats. So what you see is an > > average of the 'too high' and 'shorted' output voltages. > > > OK - I'll check the outputs with the oscilloscope when it's in that > mode, and see if I can see a waveform that looks like that. In general a 'scope will tell you a lot more about why a PSU is failing than a simple (average) voltage check. > > > If the output capacitors have high ESR (a likely problem due to old age), > > there will be spikes on the output, sometimes around twice the normal > > > I've grabbed new replacements for all the capacitors, apart from the big > high-voltage input-side ones. One of the output capacitors has shrunk > its heat-shrink wrapping quite considerably, so I'm guessing that one > has been running quite hot. Might as well replace them all though - the > replacements only cost me NZ$10 (something like 3 pounds, maybe US$5, at > a guess) so it's hardly breaking the bank. Indeed. Dried up electrrlytics have a high ESR and will cause problems like this. I normally ger the 105 degree ones, they're not much more expneisve and may prove more reliable,. But it's up to you. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 18 12:59:34 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 18:59:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple II Plus power supply strangeness In-Reply-To: <4A114EF2.1070909@stillhq.com> from "Doug Jackson" at May 18, 9 10:05:06 pm Message-ID: > Be careful with the high voltage ones in the input filter before the > diode rectifier. (A couple of uF, 400 or so volts AC rated - encased in > a clear plastic case) I had an apple 2 recently that had one of these Mains filter capacitors (these are the non-polarised ones, AC rated, connected across the power lien, or from one side of the power line to earth) often fail spectacularly, but do no further damage. They are certainly not the cause of any output-side problems. > fail spectacularly - tons of brown goo that smelt of cigarette smoke > (tar?) spewed forth. It was hard to remove. But It is happier now. > > Also - regarding the drop the 12V rail - isn't that the one that is > monitored to regulate the switcher? The 12V line powers part of the regualtor circuit (on the schematic I have, it's based round Q4 and AR1 -- AR1 is an optoisolator, and the LED secion appears to be drawn backwards!). But the actual regulation compares the votlage on a zener doide/normal diode circuit (applied to the base of Q4) and the 5V line (applied to the emitter). So in fact the 5V line is the one that's actually monitored. > > Does anybody have the schematic for these PSUs? There is a schematic on page 93 of the 'Apple ][ Reference Manual' that I have in front of me. I can't find any edition number in said manual. This is a schematic for a 110V-input only version, the 240V version is presumably different, but may not be very different (different transformer turns ration, but it might be the same circuitry). I have never had to repair an Apple ][ PSU, so I have no idea if this schematic is even close the real thing. I have found some PSU schematics is technical manuals to be total works of fiction, though (the one in the TRS-80 Model 3 techncial manual is hilarious!). So you might want to check it carefully agianst the actual PCB. -tony From doc at vaxen.net Mon May 18 13:17:32 2009 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 13:17:32 -0500 (CDT) Subject: With great sorrow Message-ID: <4A11A504.1060604@vaxen.net> Well, not really. I'm giving up most of my electronics and computer stuff, but while it's all been great fun, I'm nor all that sad about it. As elegant as this stuff can be, I finally get to start riding again, and I need the space (and cash of course!). I'll be listing some of the high-dollar stuff on Ebay, but most of it will go on VCM for free or peanuts. Details and pictures will come later; this is just a high-level teaser. If there's something you want, hit me off-list and we'll discuss. HUGE points and discounts for local pickup or if I can drop it off at Craters & Freighters. DEC stuff: PDP-11/84 - ethernet, TU80 interface, and a CMD SCSI adapter. IIRC, 1024KW memory. It's not been run since last summer because all the foam went to dust during the winter and I haven't had time to clean it up. PDP-11/84 chassis - untested PDP-11/44 - actually 3 of them, one without a front panel. 2 were in production up to 2003, none have been run since then. email for board lists, but all have at least 512KW memory and some kind of storage. PDP-11/04 - programmer's front panel, 32KW core, ALU board, VT220. works from programmer's keypad, but I never got the bus grants sorted out. Several Unibus epansion chassis. 3 TU80 tape drives. All tested working in 2007. Alpha PC 164LX - 384MB, 533MHz proc, fully working. 300W Sparkle PSU if you want it. VAXStation 4000/90 VS4000/60 - I think I have 2 of these Amiga stuff: Several A500s w/ various ROM levels A3000 with Cyberstorm 68060, Prometheus PCI board, 3.1 ROMs lots of software in box Atari A couple of 520s and 1040s Mega STE w/ 4MB and SCSI drive Other: A bunch of SGI R10000 Indigo^2s Several R10K Octanes 133MHz BeBox with 4MB Matrox Millenium, 4GB disk, 192MB RAM, TV tuner, and a lot of software. Excellent cosmetic condition. Please let me know off-list if you want to nab any of that. Also, unfortunately, past experience here dictates that I say this: please don't be insulting. Although I don't expect to *get* it, I do have a fair clue what each piece is worth. Doc From vrs at msn.com Mon May 18 13:46:32 2009 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 11:46:32 -0700 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? References: Message-ID: From: "Tony Duell" >> (And to make it clear: hardware flow control is definitely not possible >> towards a PDP8) > > 'Nothing is impossible except skiing through a revolving door' :-) > > More seriously,. I would have thought you could make hardware > modifications ot the serial interface PCB, possibly to gate ome of the > ready signals with the flow control input. Or (in this case), detect the > CR (or is it LF that's the problem?) and then hold the ready line > deasseted either for enough time for the VT05 to complete its operation > or until it gets some ecternal acknowledge signal. > > No, I am not suggesting this is a sensible solution to the problem,but it > is _possible_ Someone suggested a microcontroller to kludge up a flow control signal from the VT05 earlier. Once such a signal is derived (however that is done), the 8/i, 8/L, and PDP-12 *do* have a TTL signal input that will perform this function. There isn't a single "serial interface PCB", however. There's one for input, one for output, another for the baud rate generator, and another yet for the current-loop interface. They are connected together by the custom wire-wrap "backplane". So you'd need to convert the flow control signal to a TTL level, then apply it to the magic wire-wrap post on the backplane. The nice thing is that it could be done with minimal, reversable mods to the vintage gear. (Somebody else mentioned Reader-Run -- that doesn't come into it, as that handles flow control in the other direction.) Vince From imsaicollector at yahoo.com Mon May 18 14:00:14 2009 From: imsaicollector at yahoo.com (Michael Hart) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 12:00:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IMSAI 8080 for sale.... Message-ID: <134744.53925.qm@web57005.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hi all ?? Those of you who know me, know that I have a rule that basically make me attempt to get rid of stuff that I have not used after a certain period of time. ?? I have a second fully functional IMSAI-8080 (http://www.michael-george-hart.com/computerscience/imsai8080-z80.html) that has been sitting around doing nothing since completed my last IMSAI-8080 project (http://www.michael-george-hart.com/computerscience/imsai8080-8088.html) ?? Given my other S-100 projects, ALTAIR 8800b repair and restoration, and porting LINUX to my CS-250 I don't foresee really doing anything with this particular IMSAI-8080 for at least another year to two years maybe as much as three years from now. ?? I have had this IMSAI-8080 since 1996/1997, which I got from a Electronic parts/component store. The store used it to maintain their inventory along, mail, billing etc from about 1975/1976 until it simply stopped working. (That was the story told to me.) It sat in their store from the day it stopped working until I came across it in 1996/1997. I made some simple repairs to the memory and its been working since that time. ?? The only issue with it is there are some minor alignment problems with the between the floppy drives. Other than that the system has always booted without issue. ?? The person who purchase the system from me will get all the manuals for all the boards in the system and the floppy drives. Also to be included is the IMSAI-8080 Manual and a number of IMSAI-8080 period related fliers. I will be sending the 50 or so floppies that originally came with the system when I first took possession of it . ? Again this is a fully functional IMSAI-8080 in near mint condition. http://www.michael-george-hart.com/image/s-100/imsai-1/dsc02565.jpg http://www.michael-george-hart.com/image/s-100/imsai-1/dsc02567.jpg http://www.michael-george-hart.com/image/s-100/imsai-1/dsc02572.jpg I am looking to get $2000. If no one is interested I will put it on e-bay and see what the market tolerate. I think that my price is a good deal consider the crap that I see people paying $1600 to $2500 on e-bay for systems that don't even work or can boot into CP/M-80 I intend to place the system on e-bay Wednesday morning is no one here gives a my expected price. Let me know if you are interested Michael Michael Hart 201-290-3796 michael.george.hart at gmail.com PS. ?? The total weight is about 100lbs. I will probably have to ship everything I mentioned above in 5 different boxes. You pay for shipping cost. If possible I would prefer whomever purchases the system come an pick it up the system so they can confirm the functionality to their satisfaction for themselves. I still don't trust UPS/FedEx or USPS for safely get the system no matter how well I pack the system. From legalize at xmission.com Mon May 18 14:03:13 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 13:03:13 -0600 Subject: With great sorrow In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 18 May 2009 13:17:32 -0500. <4A11A504.1060604@vaxen.net> Message-ID: Standard question applies... where's it located? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From lynchaj at yahoo.com Mon May 18 14:07:45 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 15:07:45 -0400 Subject: S-100 power supply transformer Message-ID: > >Subject: S-100 power supply transformer > From: "Andrew Lynch" > > Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 16:51:44 -0400 > To: > > >Hi! Does anyone know of an available transformer suitable for making an >S-100 power supply? I need 120VAC input and 10VAC output and +/- 18VAC >outputs. > >The best I solution I can find is two separate 80VA transformers; one >parallel 10VAC output and another 36VCT output which can be configured for >+/-18VAC outputs. Try closer to 8V RMS rectified that will be more depending on load. Same to the other two. Look up the calulations and see. FYI you also talking for the 8V line 60,000 to 150,000microfarads (at 15-25V) and the other two more like 10,000 to 20,000 (at 30V min) microfarad capacitors.. [snip] -----REPLY----- Hi Allison and the others that replied. Thanks for the information! I am currently using a kludged S-100 power supply built from repurposed SMPSUs. It works fine but involves three separate parts. I suppose if I could find a +/-15V dual output unit I could combine two but what I have works fine. However, I've never seen an off the shelf single unit SMPSU that supports S-100 voltages that does not require adjustment. A +7.5V/+15V/-15V or similar would be ideal but I've never seen one available. Reusing SMPSUs works but each solution is essentially a custom installation. Tweaking surplus ATX supplies sounds appealing but for most people screwing around with SMPSUs is hazardous and unique to each type of power supply. Generally, I stay out of the SMPSU chassis unless there is a really good reason to be there. I wrote up my plan for the S-100 linear power supply. It got rather long so instead of posting a mini-manifesto on the list if you are interested you can read it here: http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/f/S-100_linear_power_supply_plan.html Any comments, suggestions, questions are appreciated. Thanks in advance and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon May 18 14:10:43 2009 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 15:10:43 -0400 Subject: bitsavers redirecting to the mirrors Message-ID: <4A117A730200003700056C68@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Al wrote: >> Yup, redirected to trailing-edge.com. >> > >That is really bad. Tim will not be pleased. It's not so bad. I'm quite used to getting slashdotted. The net bandwidth out of my site is really tiny but it's fundamentally there to serve good stuff up, and without a doubt bitsavers is good stuff. I suspect folks trying to download, oh, say the 1981 Tektronix catalog would be very dissatsifed with the bandwidth out of my site, if they want the document in faster than a couple hours. Occasionally we get into discussions about mirroring for geographic redundancy and I support all efforts to do so, even if it sucks up my bandwidth. Only rarely do I stay up at night worried about bandwidth. But I do stay up at night worrying about what would happen if some server filled with good stuff became suddenly unavailable. We have archive.org and Google's cache as good starts but I think they don't necessarily suck up tape images. I do notice that google has sometimes been building its indices with OCR from scanned PDF documents. Tim. From imsaicollector at yahoo.com Mon May 18 14:12:18 2009 From: imsaicollector at yahoo.com (Michael Hart) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 12:12:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IMSAI 8080 for sale.... Message-ID: <965950.62472.qm@web57001.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Lol!!! I just checked e-bay for what is being asked of an IMSAI-8080 that is not fully tested, no floppy drives and from what I can tell only has one board http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-IMSAI-8080-S100-Low-S-003878-NEC-8080A-Works_W0QQitemZ190307992840QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2c4f3d8508&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116 They are asking near $4000.00 So whomever takes my offer will be getting a gem for of a system at a bargain price of $2000.00 Anyway you have until Wednesday morning until I place it on e-bay. Later people.. Michael Hart Trader Kiosk 201-290-3796 michael at traderkiosk.com imsaicollector at yahoo.com I, the unwilling, was led by the unqualified, to do the unbelievable for so long with so little, that I attempted the impossible with nothing......" --- On Mon, 5/18/09, Michael Hart wrote: From: Michael Hart Subject: IMSAI 8080 for sale.... To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Monday, May 18, 2009, 3:00 PM Hi all ?? Those of you who know me, know that I have a rule that basically make me attempt to get rid of stuff that I have not used after a certain period of time. ?? I have a second fully functional IMSAI-8080 (http://www.michael-george-hart.com/computerscience/imsai8080-z80.html) that has been sitting around doing nothing since completed my last IMSAI-8080 project (http://www.michael-george-hart.com/computerscience/imsai8080-8088.html) ?? Given my other S-100 projects, ALTAIR 8800b repair and restoration, and porting LINUX to my CS-250 I don't foresee really doing anything with this particular IMSAI-8080 for at least another year to two years maybe as much as three years from now. ?? I have had this IMSAI-8080 since 1996/1997, which I got from a Electronic parts/component store. The store used it to maintain their inventory along, mail, billing etc from about 1975/1976 until it simply stopped working. (That was the story told to me.) It sat in their store from the day it stopped working until I came across it in 1996/1997. I made some simple repairs to the memory and its been working since that time. ?? The only issue with it is there are some minor alignment problems with the between the floppy drives. Other than that the system has always booted without issue. ?? The person who purchase the system from me will get all the manuals for all the boards in the system and the floppy drives. Also to be included is the IMSAI-8080 Manual and a number of IMSAI-8080 period related fliers. I will be sending the 50 or so floppies that originally came with the system when I first took possession of it . ? Again this is a fully functional IMSAI-8080 in near mint condition. http://www.michael-george-hart.com/image/s-100/imsai-1/dsc02565.jpg http://www.michael-george-hart.com/image/s-100/imsai-1/dsc02567.jpg http://www.michael-george-hart.com/image/s-100/imsai-1/dsc02572.jpg I am looking to get $2000. If no one is interested I will put it on e-bay and see what the market tolerate. I think that my price is a good deal consider the crap that I see people paying $1600 to $2500 on e-bay for systems that don't even work or can boot into CP/M-80 I intend to place the system on e-bay Wednesday morning is no one here gives a my expected price. Let me know if you are interested Michael Michael Hart 201-290-3796 michael.george.hart at gmail.com PS. ?? The total weight is about 100lbs. I will probably have to ship everything I mentioned above in 5 different boxes. You pay for shipping cost. If possible I would prefer whomever purchases the system come an pick it up the system so they can confirm the functionality to their satisfaction for themselves. I still don't trust UPS/FedEx or USPS for safely get the system no matter how well I pack the system. From doc at vaxen.net Mon May 18 14:34:02 2009 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 14:34:02 -0500 (CDT) Subject: With great sorrow In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A11B789.9080309@vaxen.net> Richard wrote: > Standard question applies... where's it located? Swear I just posted that clarification.... It's all located in Austin Texas. I should also have mentioned that I'll take Foredom handpieces and tools, jeweler's torch and/or oxy-acetylene gauges, a precision drill press, tabletop mill or lathe, or a good stationary belt sander in trade. If it says Craftsman, Ryobi, Jet, or Delta on it, it's not what I'm talking about. ;) Doc From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 18 14:46:21 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 15:46:21 -0400 Subject: IMSAI 8080 for sale.... In-Reply-To: <965950.62472.qm@web57001.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <965950.62472.qm@web57001.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 3:12 PM, Michael Hart wrote: > Lol!!! > I just checked e-bay for what is being asked of an IMSAI-8080 that is not fully tested, no floppy drives and from what I can tell only has one board > http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-IMSAI-8080-S100-Low-S-003878-NEC-8080A-Works_W0QQitemZ190307992840QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2c4f3d8508&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116 > > They are asking near $4000.00 One may always ask. Getting is another thing entirely (that having been said, a year ago, it's probably quite likely they would get it - now, I'm not so sure), But it has a "White Ceramic Processor"! Surely that justifies the asking price ;-) > So whomever takes my offer will be getting a gem for of a system at a bargain price of $2000.00 I figured $2K was something of a deal, but the 8080A isn't one of the systems I'm aggressively pursuing (but I wouldn't turn away a rescue ;-) I was a bit young for S-100 the first time around (I was bumming time on the free PETs at the main library since I couldn't afford any sort of computer at home), so I have no nostalgic attachment to the platform. I happen to have a slightly newer, off-brand S-100 box to play with (a rescue), that doesn't happen to have a front panel, but that's fine with me. Somebody on the this list is probably keen to pick up a real IMSAI, though. -ethan From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon May 18 14:56:18 2009 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 15:56:18 -0400 Subject: bitsavers redirecting to the mirrors Message-ID: <4A1185220200003700056C89@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Jay writes: > I'm concerned if it might cause Tim issues. If he got excessive bandwidth > charges, I will pay them, no questions asked. However, I am a bit concerned > if this would cause a problem. Anyone who has signed up as a bitsavers > mirror as been advised that they must make their mirror public, and they > must be able to sustain a reasonable load (fair share) of bandwidth - > otherwise they shouldn't be mirroring it (this is just meant to make it fair > for everyone, including me). That's not to say that 1/2 the load is fair, it > isn't. But a suprising number of people hit the bitsavers site and then > select their favorite mirror, so I wouldn't think it would have made that > much difference. Let me know if so. I may have seen an uptick in net usage during that time (Friday and Saturday?), but it was not severe. The pipe was at 100% for several hours... but it's at 100% for several hours most any day anyways. Nothing at all compared to being slashdotted :-) Tim. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon May 18 15:10:17 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 13:10:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IMSAI 8080 for sale.... In-Reply-To: <965950.62472.qm@web57001.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <965950.62472.qm@web57001.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 May 2009, Michael Hart wrote: > Lol!!! > I just checked e-bay for what is being asked of an IMSAI-8080 that is > not fully tested, no floppy drives and from what I can tell only has one > board > http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-IMSAI-8080-S100-Low-S-003878-NEC-8080A-Works_W0QQitemZ190307992840QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2c4f3d8508&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116 > > They are asking near $4000.00 > > So whomever takes my offer will be getting a gem for of a system at a > bargain price of $2000.00 > > Anyway you have until Wednesday morning until I place it on e-bay. Speaking as someone who has sold a few IMSAIs on Ebay, here's my take on it. $2000 for a known-working IMSAI-8080 with peripherals is a very good deal. I sold a machine with a CPU and a defective memory board (noted that fact on the auction page) for $1700. With all the goodies you're tossing in, it's a steal. Regarding shipping something like that? I've found that the best way to do it is get a roll of bubble wrap with the 1-inch-across bubbles. Wrap the thing with enough to turn it into a marshmallow. Put that in a box with at least six inches of clearance all the way around, then fill with styrofoam peanuts. I've done this with IMSAIs, Altairs, and an AT&T 3b1 -- no troubles reported. Anyhow, I'm not interested as I already have my dream IMSAI. My storage unit can't take much more. Someone, please give that machine a good home. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 18 15:17:48 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 16:17:48 -0400 Subject: Re-installing a TouchTone keypad in an ASR-33 In-Reply-To: <4A11393D.2667.5DA14C@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4A0EFC37.522.6A83E50@cclist.sydex.com>, <16A8A410-3176-4887-8EB9-FAF464EF136B@neurotica.com> <4A11393D.2667.5DA14C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <8867F92A-D243-48EE-9F9D-333E01FC5672@neurotica.com> On May 18, 2009, at 1:32 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I'm not a telephony geek, but this comment prompted me to go look >> at that schematic. That's a really neat little circuit. What are >> the four odd components? The symbols sorta look like DIACs. > > Varistors. Telco stuff was usually silicon-carbide rather than metal > oxide. Although they were used for circuit protection, and amplitude- > limiting (look inside the receiver of any 2500 series desk set), they > were also used for circuit stabilization, which is, I think, the > application in the dial circuit. Oh, how thoroughly bizarre. Thanks for the explanation. I'd love to see a SPICE simulation of that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 18 15:30:23 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 21:30:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? In-Reply-To: from "Vincent Slyngstad" at May 18, 9 11:46:32 am Message-ID: > > More seriously,. I would have thought you could make hardware > > modifications ot the serial interface PCB, possibly to gate ome of the > > ready signals with the flow control input. Or (in this case), detect the > > CR (or is it LF that's the problem?) and then hold the ready line > > deasseted either for enough time for the VT05 to complete its operation > > or until it gets some ecternal acknowledge signal. > > > > No, I am not suggesting this is a sensible solution to the problem,but it > > is _possible_ > > Someone suggested a microcontroller to kludge up a flow control signal > from the VT05 earlier. > > Once such a signal is derived (however that is done), the 8/i, 8/L, and > PDP-12 *do* have a TTL signal input that will perform this function. > There isn't a single "serial interface PCB", however. There's one for Sure. The only PDP8 I have direct experience of is the 8/e on my desk, but I've read the PDP12 prints for fun... > input, one for output, another for the baud rate generator, and another > yet for the current-loop interface. They are connected together by the > custom wire-wrap "backplane". So you'd need to convert the flow control > signal to a TTL level, then apply it to the magic wire-wrap post on > the backplane. Yep.... My comment about 'modifying the serial interface board' could be taken as correct in that case, though. That 'magic wirewrap pin' presumably conencts to one on the PCBs in the serial interface circuit. So you _could_ pick up the signal on that PCB (Personally I wouldn't, on the grounds that unwrapping a wire from a backplane pin is easier to do than desoldering a wire from a PCB if you ever wanted to reverse the mod). > > The nice thing is that it could be done with minimal, reversable mods to > the vintage gear. Yes. Which PDP8 does the OP have? From an earlier comment I gathered it was an Omnibus machine, but maybe I misread that. In that case I think you do have to make some modification to the serial interface PCB (and it is likely to be one PCB on those machines) -tony From mtapley at swri.edu Mon May 18 15:34:19 2009 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 15:34:19 -0500 Subject: Nostalgic technologies article Message-ID: Hello all, FYI&D, an article on MSN tech & gadgets describing "25 Computer products that refused to die". http://tech.msn.com/howto/articlepcw.aspx?cp-documentid=19017036&page=1 The list is: Dot-matrix printers Hayes modems Sony Minidiscs Monochrome Displays Hercules Graphics PDA's (in favor of smarter cellphones) Packard-Bell Amiga Floppy Disks Zip disks Z80 CPU's dBase NetScape MS-DOS Lotus 1-2-3 PageMaker After Dark Harvard Graphics Alta Vista Webvan Compuserve Prodigy VCR+ Circuit City Egghead Not endorsing nor editorializing, though it could be fun; just notifying y'all for whatever nostalgic value is there. Apologies if this is a repeat post, I'm a bit behind on all aspects of email. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon May 18 15:50:05 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 13:50:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Nostalgic technologies article In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 May 2009, Mark Tapley wrote: > Hello all, > FYI&D, an article on MSN tech & gadgets describing "25 Computer > products that refused to die". > > http://tech.msn.com/howto/articlepcw.aspx?cp-documentid=19017036&page=1 > > The list is: > > Dot-matrix printers > Hayes modems > Sony Minidiscs Sony botched this one badly. It could have replaced the floppy disk years before Iomega tried to do so with the Zip. > Packard-Bell Ewww... Nasty! > Zip disks I had a professor who said that Iomega names its products after the sound the product makes when it dies. > Z80 CPU's Yummy! > MS-DOS I use FreeDOS nowadays. Someday really soon, I'll pull out one of my older machines and turn it into a circa 1990 dream machine... running FreeDOS. Does anyone else here maintain such machines? > PageMaker I'm expecting a shipment of PageMaker for SunOS any day now. Remember that post from October or so? The plan is to part out the packages to people who wanted a single copy. > Egghead When I first heard about Newegg, I thought it was Egghead coming back. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 18 15:54:57 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 16:54:57 -0400 Subject: Nostalgic technologies article In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 4:34 PM, Mark Tapley wrote: > Hello all, > ? ? ? ?FYI&D, an article on MSN tech & gadgets describing "25 Computer > products that refused to die". > > http://tech.msn.com/howto/articlepcw.aspx?cp-documentid=19017036&page=1 Nice. > The list is: . . . > Floppy Disks This section asks the question "Under what circumstances would you opt for floppies over something like a $10 (or so) 4GB USB drive that holds 2750 times as much data?" Well... I would when I'm on a machine that doesn't _have_ USB and can't have it equipped (like my Dell Latitude LM that only has PCMCIA, not Cardbus... it's been running RedHat 9 since it was given to me in 2003. With 256MB of RAM and a 40GB disk, it's not a terrible laptop, but I wouldn't try to run a recent browser on it, that's for sure). . . . > Compuserve This section mentions "Wow" and calls it "a faux-AOL that the company shuttered within months of its 1996 release -- I can?t believe that anyone misses it or is looking for it.". I never used Wow, but when I was working at AOL/CompuServe in 2001, I worked directly with some folks who were part of the Wow launch a few years earlier. Their comments were, um, uncharitable. Apparently few people liked it, inside the company or out. I still have a couple of Wow mousepads, the only useful remnant. The article also says "For those of us who were CompuServe users back when its user IDs consisted of lots of digits and a mysterious comma, it?s a depressing fate." I haven't memorized my old PPN, but I do have it in easy reach at home on the subscriber label of ancient copies of "Online" magazine. I'm glad I worked there (twice!), but it was sad to watch the once-great CompuServe in the final stages of digestion by AOL. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 18 16:03:06 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 17:03:06 -0400 Subject: Nostalgic technologies article In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 4:50 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> Packard-Bell > > Ewww... ?Nasty! Indeed. I turned a tiny Packard-Bell 486 into a Linux Router Project router a while back, but, surprise, surprise, it lasted only as long as the (proprietary-form-factor) PSU. >> Zip disks > > I had a professor who said that Iomega names its products after the sound > the product makes when it dies. >> Z80 CPU's > > Yummy! I have fired up my TRS-80 Model III in the past two weeks. *looks out at the other M3 owners on the list* Have you?!? ;-) I have to check, but I think I am still having a RAM chip issue - it's either bad sockets or a bad 4116. The machine is loaded with 48K, but may only have 32K working reliably. It won't successfully boot any of my M3 Infocom games (which is why I had it on recently). >> MS-DOS > > I use FreeDOS nowadays. ?Someday really soon, I'll pull out one of my older > machines and turn it into a circa 1990 dream machine... running FreeDOS. I just ran FreeDOS last month, booted from a Knoppix live CD. I needed to boot to "DOS" to twiddle something on a 3COM NIC before doing a PXE boot on an otherwise blank machine. > ?Does anyone else here maintain such machines? I haven't specifically tried to build a "1990 Dream Machine", but I still have my last 486 configuration intact (c. 1996). I use it for 5.25" floppy work since it has a combo 3.5"/5.25" one-bay drive I bought new when they first came out. >> Egghead > > When I first heard about Newegg, I thought it was Egghead coming back. So did I. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 18 16:04:33 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 14:04:33 -0700 Subject: Re-installing a TouchTone keypad in an ASR-33 In-Reply-To: <8867F92A-D243-48EE-9F9D-333E01FC5672@neurotica.com> References: , <4A11393D.2667.5DA14C@cclist.sydex.com>, <8867F92A-D243-48EE-9F9D-333E01FC5672@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A116AF1.2485.11FC63A@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 May 2009 at 16:17, Dave McGuire wrote: > Oh, how thoroughly bizarre. Thanks for the explanation. I'd love > > to see a SPICE simulation of that. What's noteworthy is the stability of the thing. ISTR that DTMF signalling relies on a tolerance of something like +/-2%. A mass- produced LC oscillator that operates reliably close to tolerances in a steel mill or a meat-packing plant is a marvel. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 18 16:08:13 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 14:08:13 -0700 Subject: Nostalgic technologies article In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4A116BCD.1112.1231FF4@cclist.sydex.com> "Monochrome displays" So what other display technology has near-infinite resolution? Not plasma, LCD or shadow-mask CRTs.... --Chuck From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon May 18 16:08:27 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 18:08:27 -0300 Subject: S-100 power supply transformer References: Message-ID: <25a201c9d7fe$15cfba50$755619bb@desktaba> > +7.5V/+15V/-15V or similar would be ideal but I've never seen one > available. This is something VERY easy to get with a PC power supply and one pot or one resistor. ALL PC power supplies uses a (or a variant of) TL494. Change the divider network (two resistors) on pin 1, connected to 5V and you can raise it to 8V and 12V will have around 18V Simple, easy and stable. Greetings from Brazil Alexandre, PU1BZZ From gyorpb at gmail.com Mon May 18 16:22:32 2009 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 23:22:32 +0200 Subject: Nostalgic technologies article In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <766444380905181422m34ece3d2nbafdd6ccaed3194a@mail.gmail.com> 2009/5/18 David Griffith : >> Sony Minidiscs > > Sony botched this one badly. ?It could have replaced the floppy disk years > before Iomega tried to do so with the Zip. Yup. Sony is a large content-provider, too. They crippled MD so badly it never came into its own. >> Zip disks > > I had a professor who said that Iomega names its products after the sound > the product makes when it dies. I still use them. They hold more data than I could ever dream of ever having to store back when some of my hardware was current. And even on some of my more current machines I have internal drives. For those that don't, I have FireWire and USB ZIP750 drives, and SCSI ZIP250's. On some machines with slow network interfaces, ZIP sneakernet is a nice and fast way of transfering larger files. They're dirt cheap on eBay, nowadays. Never suffered click-of-death, either. Trouble was, though, people thought of them as removable hard drives, instead of really big floppies. .tsooJ From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 18 16:27:52 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 17:27:52 -0400 Subject: Nostalgic technologies article In-Reply-To: <766444380905181422m34ece3d2nbafdd6ccaed3194a@mail.gmail.com> References: <766444380905181422m34ece3d2nbafdd6ccaed3194a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On May 18, 2009, at 5:22 PM, Joost van de Griek wrote: >>> Sony Minidiscs >> >> Sony botched this one badly. It could have replaced the floppy >> disk years >> before Iomega tried to do so with the Zip. > > Yup. Sony is a large content-provider, too. They crippled MD so badly > it never came into its own. ...despite not one, but TWO major marketing thrusts, years apart. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From IanK at vulcan.com Mon May 18 17:06:21 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 15:06:21 -0700 Subject: Nostalgic technologies article In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks > Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 1:55 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Nostalgic technologies article > > On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 4:34 PM, Mark Tapley wrote: > > Hello all, > > ? ? ? ?FYI&D, an article on MSN tech & gadgets describing "25 > Computer > > products that refused to die". > > > > http://tech.msn.com/howto/articlepcw.aspx?cp- > documentid=19017036&page=1 > > Nice. > > . > > Compuserve > > This section mentions "Wow" and calls it "a faux-AOL that the company > shuttered within months of its 1996 release -- I can't believe that > anyone misses it or is looking for it.". I never used Wow, but when I > was working at AOL/CompuServe in 2001, I worked directly with some > folks who were part of the Wow launch a few years earlier. Their > comments were, um, uncharitable. Apparently few people liked it, > inside the company or out. I still have a couple of Wow mousepads, > the only useful remnant. > > The article also says "For those of us who were CompuServe users back > when its user IDs consisted of lots of digits and a mysterious comma, > it's a depressing fate." I haven't memorized my old PPN, but I do > have it in easy reach at home on the subscriber label of ancient > copies of "Online" magazine. And what were those mysterious IDs? CompuServe was run on DEC PDP-10 systems, and these IDs were standard DEC user IDs! In the format [group, user], this ID structure was used across many DEC OS products, including TOPS-10/20, RSX-11 and VMS. It's a shame he didn't mention (or know?) that.... -- Ian From innfoclassics at gmail.com Mon May 18 17:09:50 2009 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 17:09:50 -0500 Subject: Sun Ultra 10 needed In-Reply-To: <20090518095516.S14393@racsys.rachors.com> References: <283524cadfe9cc2e01ed0f38427bcfb5.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> <20090518095516.S14393@racsys.rachors.com> Message-ID: George, You might check Free Geeks in Portland. I volunteer there and have seen them on the shelf in the back at times. Paxton On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 11:58 AM, George L. Rachor Jr. wrote: > > I know some folks that are in need of aquiring a Sun Ultra 10 workstation as > a replacement for one that is being used as an instrument controller. > > The need is in the Portland Oregon Area. > > Do you have one in reasonable running condition and how much might it take > for you to part with it? > > Are their trustworthy businesses that I could purchase one from? > > > Best Regards, > > George Rachor > > ========================================================= > George L. Rachor Jr. george at rachors.com > Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com > United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > > -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From doug at stillhq.com Mon May 18 17:07:54 2009 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 08:07:54 +1000 Subject: Re-installing a TouchTone keypad in an ASR-33 In-Reply-To: <4A116AF1.2485.11FC63A@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4A11393D.2667.5DA14C@cclist.sydex.com>, <8867F92A-D243-48EE-9F9D-333E01FC5672@neurotica.com> <4A116AF1.2485.11FC63A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A11DC3A.8010802@stillhq.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 18 May 2009 at 16:17, Dave McGuire wrote: > > >> Oh, how thoroughly bizarre. Thanks for the explanation. I'd love >> >> to see a SPICE simulation of that. >> > > What's noteworthy is the stability of the thing. ISTR that DTMF > signalling relies on a tolerance of something like +/-2%. A mass- > produced LC oscillator that operates reliably close to tolerances in > a steel mill or a meat-packing plant is a marvel. > > --Chuck > And was constructed in the days before we could do SPICE simulation. Gosh!! ;-) (Sorry, Could Not Resist, being from the OLD school, where we simulated using Veroboard - Now the local electronics magazine is shirty if I provide a design that uses Veroboard as "Our readers don't like Veroboard" ----- Bugga! ) Doug From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 18 17:14:35 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 18:14:35 -0400 Subject: Re-installing a TouchTone keypad in an ASR-33 In-Reply-To: <4A11DC3A.8010802@stillhq.com> References: , <4A11393D.2667.5DA14C@cclist.sydex.com>, <8867F92A-D243-48EE-9F9D-333E01FC5672@neurotica.com> <4A116AF1.2485.11FC63A@cclist.sydex.com> <4A11DC3A.8010802@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <00EB68C4-8CA3-4EED-B73E-71C1AAEC7756@neurotica.com> On May 18, 2009, at 6:07 PM, Doug Jackson wrote: > (Sorry, Could Not Resist, being from the OLD school, where we > simulated using Veroboard - Now the local electronics magazine is > shirty if I > provide a design that uses Veroboard as "Our readers don't like > Veroboard" ----- Bugga! ) If they don't like Veroboard, they don't like electronics. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 18 17:14:48 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 18:14:48 -0400 Subject: Re-installing a TouchTone keypad in an ASR-33 In-Reply-To: <4A116AF1.2485.11FC63A@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4A11393D.2667.5DA14C@cclist.sydex.com>, <8867F92A-D243-48EE-9F9D-333E01FC5672@neurotica.com> <4A116AF1.2485.11FC63A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On May 18, 2009, at 5:04 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Oh, how thoroughly bizarre. Thanks for the explanation. I'd love >> >> to see a SPICE simulation of that. > > What's noteworthy is the stability of the thing. ISTR that DTMF > signalling relies on a tolerance of something like +/-2%. A mass- > produced LC oscillator that operates reliably close to tolerances in > a steel mill or a meat-packing plant is a marvel. Wow. That's pretty damn impressive. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 18 17:26:06 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 18:26:06 -0400 Subject: Sun Ultra 10 needed In-Reply-To: References: <283524cadfe9cc2e01ed0f38427bcfb5.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> <20090518095516.S14393@racsys.rachors.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 6:09 PM, Paxton Hoag wrote: > George, > > You might check Free Geeks in Portland. I volunteer there and have > seen them on the shelf in the back at times. Must be nice. I volunteer at Free Geek Columbus (Ohio), and we have yet to receive a single bit of Sun gear - the only "odd" thing we get are PowerPC Macs. :-( -ethan From gklinger at gmail.com Mon May 18 17:41:30 2009 From: gklinger at gmail.com (Golan Klinger) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 18:41:30 -0400 Subject: IMSAI 8080 for sale.... In-Reply-To: References: <965950.62472.qm@web57001.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180357914217 Looks like that one was a steal. -- Golan Klinger Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From silent700 at gmail.com Mon May 18 17:59:19 2009 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 17:59:19 -0500 Subject: Nostalgic technologies article In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51ea77730905181559u6cc840d9pddc031dd0e3e93d3@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 5:06 PM, Ian King wrote: > And what were those mysterious IDs? ?CompuServe was run on DEC PDP-10 systems, and these IDs were standard DEC user IDs! ?In the format [group, user], this ID structure was used across many DEC OS products, including TOPS-10/20, RSX-11 and VMS. ?It's a shame he didn't mention (or know?) that.... -- Ian Well I didn't know that. But now I do. Cool! -- jht (73347,2556) From vrs at msn.com Mon May 18 18:29:48 2009 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 16:29:48 -0700 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? References: Message-ID: From: "Tony Duell" > Which PDP8 does the OP have? From an earlier comment I gathered it was an > Omnibus machine, but maybe I misread that. In that case I think you do > have to make some modification to the serial interface PCB (and it is > likely to be one PCB on those machines) I had thought that Philipp had an older machine, since he didn't seem interested in looking for a KL8J/M8655 board (which would easily solve his problem with the VT05 on an Omnibus machine). However, checking the archives, I see that he has an 8/e with a KL8E board. So you have remembered correctly. Vince From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon May 18 18:44:33 2009 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 19:44:33 -0400 Subject: IMSAI 8080 for sale.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Golan Klinger wrote: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180357914217 > > Looks like that one was a steal. No drives... Floppy controller clearly untested... No boot or other floppy disks... The only verification of "works" is that the lights changed when the seller played with the switches. From legalize at xmission.com Mon May 18 19:10:49 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 18:10:49 -0600 Subject: Re-installing a TouchTone keypad in an ASR-33 In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 19 May 2009 08:07:54 +1000. <4A11DC3A.8010802@stillhq.com> Message-ID: In article <4A11DC3A.8010802 at stillhq.com>, Doug Jackson writes: > And was constructed in the days before we could do SPICE simulation. > Gosh!! ;-) I don't know what year you're thinking about, but I was surprised to see that SPICE was first presented in 1973. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From doug at stillhq.com Mon May 18 19:19:27 2009 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 10:19:27 +1000 Subject: Re-installing a TouchTone keypad in an ASR-33 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A11FB0F.5010707@stillhq.com> Richard wrote: > In article <4A11DC3A.8010802 at stillhq.com>, > Doug Jackson writes: > > >> And was constructed in the days before we could do SPICE simulation. >> Gosh!! ;-) >> > > I don't know what year you're thinking about, but I was surprised to > see that SPICE was first presented in 1973. > Tis true, but in the early 80's it simply cost too much, at least to those of us working in budget constrained universities. From legalize at xmission.com Mon May 18 19:29:48 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 18:29:48 -0600 Subject: Re-installing a TouchTone keypad in an ASR-33 In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 19 May 2009 10:19:27 +1000. <4A11FB0F.5010707@stillhq.com> Message-ID: In article <4A11FB0F.5010707 at stillhq.com>, Doug Jackson writes: > Richard wrote: > > In article <4A11DC3A.8010802 at stillhq.com>, > > Doug Jackson writes: > > > > > >> And was constructed in the days before we could do SPICE simulation. > >> Gosh!! ;-) > >> > > > > I don't know what year you're thinking about, but I was surprised to > > see that SPICE was first presented in 1973. > > > > Tis true, but in the early 80's it simply cost too much, at least to > those of us working in budget constrained universities. Hmm. In the 1982-1986 time frame I was using a free SPICE simulator at University of Delaware. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 18 19:43:45 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 17:43:45 -0700 Subject: Re-installing a TouchTone keypad in an ASR-33 In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <4A119E51.29178.1E87ECF@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 May 2009 at 18:10, Richard wrote: > I don't know what year you're thinking about, but I was surprised to > see that SPICE was first presented in 1973. DTMF has its roots in the 1940's network signalling and predates the transistor, but the model 1500 desk set with 10-key keypad dates from 1963. There were other earlier trial models: http://www.paul-f.com/weprotot.html --Chuck From RichA at vulcan.com Mon May 18 20:12:48 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 18:12:48 -0700 Subject: Nostalgic technologies article In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: Ian King > Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 3:06 PM >> From: Ethan Dicks >> Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 1:55 PM >> On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 4:34 PM, Mark Tapley wrote: >>> Compuserve > [snip] >> The article also says "For those of us who were CompuServe users back >> when its user IDs consisted of lots of digits and a mysterious comma, >> it's a depressing fate." I haven't memorized my old PPN, but I do >> have it in easy reach at home on the subscriber label of ancient >> copies of "Online" magazine. > And what were those mysterious IDs? CompuServe was run on DEC PDP-10 > systems, and these IDs were standard DEC user IDs! In the format > [group, user], this ID structure was used across many DEC OS products, > including TOPS-10/20, RSX-11 and VMS. It's a shame he didn't mention > (or know?) that.... I have to point out that TOPS-20 does not, in the general case, use PPNs. There is a UI command to translate between usernames and faux PPNs, but this has been a relic since TOPS-20 v.3A (c. 1977--current version is 7.1, c. 1995). Other than TOPS-20, which did not originate at DEC, almost all DEC operating systems used PPNs, including those on the 18-bit and 12-bit families. Rich From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon May 18 21:38:03 2009 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 21:38:03 -0500 Subject: 35KSR References: <4A0FD63E.90609@softjar.se><4A1171A0.7000508@jetnet.ab.ca> <000301c9d7cc$aba7c950$961ca8c0@mss.local> Message-ID: <001a01c9d82a$d5d2fc50$c900a8c0@JWEST> I am a very bad judge of weight, but I just went down and tried to lift each end of mine. I would make a wild guess at maybe 210#? Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Hatch" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 10:24 AM Subject: Re: 35KSR > Does anybody have info on what the weight of a Teletype 35KSR is ?, I'm > looking into the costs of shipping against going and getting it myself. > Have found that at 33 with stand is 100lb so it's obviousley more than > that. > > Mike. > > From doug at stillhq.com Mon May 18 21:31:46 2009 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 12:31:46 +1000 Subject: Re-installing a TouchTone keypad in an ASR-33 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A121A12.90008@stillhq.com> Thanks for that Richard, Obviously my memory was wrong. Here in Australia, we definitely were not using it in 1984 at the Australian National University :-) >>> I don't know what year you're thinking about, but I was surprised to >>> see that SPICE was first presented in 1973. >>> >>> >> Tis true, but in the early 80's it simply cost too much, at least to >> those of us working in budget constrained universities. >> > > Hmm. In the 1982-1986 time frame I was using a free SPICE simulator at > University of Delaware. > From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon May 18 21:55:08 2009 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 21:55:08 -0500 Subject: 35KSR References: <4A0FD63E.90609@softjar.se><4A1171A0.7000508@jetnet.ab.ca> <000301c9d7cc$aba7c950$961ca8c0@mss.local> Message-ID: <002f01c9d82d$386634c0$c900a8c0@JWEST> And FYI - did you mean ASR 35? I didn't think there was a KSR version of the 35, but I could be wrong. Jay West From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon May 18 22:25:40 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 23:25:40 -0400 Subject: 35KSR In-Reply-To: <002f01c9d82d$386634c0$c900a8c0@JWEST> References: <4A0FD63E.90609@softjar.se> <4A1171A0.7000508@jetnet.ab.ca> <000301c9d7cc$aba7c950$961ca8c0@mss.local> <002f01c9d82d$386634c0$c900a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: > And FYI - did you mean ASR 35? I didn't think there was a KSR version of the > 35, but I could be wrong. Teletype made a huge range of weird variants of the standard products, and countless upgrades and stunt boxes. For example, I have had light projection Teletypes with 6 by 8 foot screens, as well as some bizarre wall mounted Teletypes. I have never seen a KSR35, but I do would not be surprised if they made them. I would guess about 180-200 pounds for a 35. -- Will From andreww591 at gmail.com Mon May 18 23:26:26 2009 From: andreww591 at gmail.com (Andrew Warkentin) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 22:26:26 -0600 Subject: Nostalgic technologies article In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A1234F2.8030402@gmail.com> Rich Alderson wrote: > Other than TOPS-20, which did not originate at DEC, almost all DEC > operating systems used PPNs, including those on the 18-bit and 12-bit > families. > I don't know of any DEC OS for 18-bit PDPs that uses PPNs. The DECtape-based 18-bit systems that I've used (ADSS-15 and DECsys) use a single flat directory, and the disk-based ones (DOS-15 and RSX-15, a.k.a. XVM/DOS and XVM/RSX) use three-letter UICs (I think that this is the reason for RSX-11 and VMS calling their "PPNs" UICs). I've never used MUMPS-15 (only a scanned paper listing seems to still be available), but I'm pretty sure it didn't use PPNs either. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon May 18 23:45:23 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 21:45:23 -0700 Subject: Re-installing a TouchTone keypad in an ASR-33 References: >, <4A119E51.29178.1E87ECF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A123964.FE187E89@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 18 May 2009 at 18:10, Richard wrote: > > > I don't know what year you're thinking about, but I was surprised to > > see that SPICE was first presented in 1973. > > DTMF has its roots in the 1940's network signalling and predates the > transistor, but the model 1500 desk set with 10-key keypad dates from > 1963. There were other earlier trial models: > > http://www.paul-f.com/weprotot.html Here's a schematic of an Automatic Electric phone, the circuit a little more recognisable as a simple emitter-follower oscillator with dual resonant circuits: http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/AETTphone.gif The resonant circuits are in parallel in this version rather than series. (Note the 2% tolerance caps.) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 19 00:18:11 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 01:18:11 -0400 Subject: Where would one use a DEC BC13J? Message-ID: All, I have a small pile of NIB DEC BC13J-08 cables with 1997 mfg dates on the bags. They are DB25M w/pins 1-8+20 on one end, and RJ45 on the other. I'm used to DEC MMJ cables, but not DEC RJ45 serial. Does anyone know what these were used for originally? I googled for them, of course, but found little hard info - mostly for-sale listings. Thanks for shedding any light. -ethan From fmc at reanimators.org Tue May 19 00:21:57 2009 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 22:21:57 -0700 Subject: 68000 coprocessor board In-Reply-To: (Mike Loewen's message of "Fri\, 15 May 2009 23\:27\:17 -0400 \(EDT\)") References: <200905151516.n4FFGml07992@h-68-165-246-86-static.mclnva23.covad.net> <4A0DD03B.2010005@bitsavers.org> <4A0D7815.16762.BC14ED@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200905190521.n4J5LvFW041327@lots.reanimators.org> Mike Loewen wrote: > I'm trying to find some documentation for an HSC C016 processor > board, which came with an IMSAI 8080 I acquired. It has a Motorola > 68000 8MHz processor, and connects to a Cromemco ZPU board in the > IMSAI via a small daughterboard which plugs in underneath the Z80A. I > have a 8" disk for it which has CP/M 68K and some software for > switching back and forth between processors (apparently). I've got one of these. Never done anything with it, it came in a lot with some other stuff, and if I've got the Z80 end of the thing I don't know where it is (but thanks for posting the picture of it, now maybe I'll recognize it if I run across it and put it with the rest of the CO16 bits). Mine is in a metal case with a power supply, and it's got a board on the 68000 end that plugs between the main board and the 68000 and provides a place to plug in one to four NS16081 FPUs. I've got four manuals: CO-1668 User's Manual Users Manual for Z80 Cross Assembler Users Manual for MC68000 Cross Assembler CO1668 CPM 68K Implementation Users Manual The switches on the Z80 board set an I/O port number that the board responds to; switches 1-6 are the high order bits of the port number (1 is most significant bit, 6 is least significant switched bit, the other two bits are 0 and are less significant than switch 6). -Frank McConnell From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Tue May 19 01:36:52 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 23:36:52 -0700 Subject: S-100 power supply transformer References: Message-ID: <000701c9d84c$32823d00$0201a8c0@hal9000> Dwight, I think a little explanation is in order, otherwise your info borders on incorrect. You need to increase the CURRENT rating of the transformer by 1.4, but this only applies to a full wave rectifier topology and not a full wave BRIDGE topology. reference: The holy book " The art of electronics " page 47 Best regards, Steven > ---------------------------------------- >> From: lynchaj at yahoo.com >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: S-100 power supply transformer >> Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 16:51:44 -0400 >> >> Hi! Does anyone know of an available transformer suitable for making an >> S-100 power supply? I need 120VAC input and 10VAC output and +/- 18VAC >> outputs. >> >> The best I solution I can find is two separate 80VA transformers; one >> parallel 10VAC output and another 36VCT output which can be configured for >> +/-18VAC outputs. >> > ---snip--- > > Hi > What you want is an 8 volt and a 13.5 volt AC. You forget > that the DC voltage is created from the peaks not the RMS > average. You have to account for diode drop as well. > That is how I got the numbers. I assumed full wave rectification > and .6v per diode. > Dwight > Hi I forgot to mention. You need to derate the transformer as well. The problem is that the current flows when the voltage is the highest ( or close to it ). The math is a little complicated but it means you need to increase the rating of the transformer by at least 1.414. If you can't find a transformer with the right windings, I recommend looking at toroidal transformers. These can easily have turns added to increase or buck the voltage of the secondary. Dwight From chrise at pobox.com Mon May 18 06:19:56 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 06:19:56 -0500 Subject: S-100 power supply transformer In-Reply-To: <4A10BAA5.3020300@radiorobots.com> References: <4A10BAA5.3020300@radiorobots.com> Message-ID: <20090518111956.GI10897@n0jcf.net> You might also consider a 7.5V and a couple 15V switching supplies adjusted up to +8 and +16. This is what Grant Stockley does in his Altair 680b replicas. The 7.5V units are little more rare but you start to see them at 100W and higher even at places like Marlin P Jones. eg, http://www.mpja.com/prodinfo.asp?number=16012+PS -- Chris Elmquist From bqt at softjar.se Mon May 18 13:15:35 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 20:15:35 +0200 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A11A5C7.2060408@softjar.se> Rick Murphy wrote: > At 05:17 AM 5/17/2009, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> Chris Elmquist wrote: >> >>> I may have missed some facts earlier in this thread-- but does the >>> system >>> obey hardware flow control such as CTS? ie, if CTS is low, will it be >>> blocked from transmitting? If that is obeyed by all of your OS and >>> software, then it is not hard to build a microcontroller that would sit >>> between the system and the terminal, adding the delays you need on >>> while buffering for and hardware flow controlling back toward the PDP-8. >> In general, when talking about DEC equipment, the answer to that >> question is *always* no, for the simple fact that DEC didn't do >> hardware flow control. Hardware flow control is actually against the >> RS-232 spec, and DEC didn't abuse standards (unlike most other companies). > > And, of course, there's a pretty good chance that this VT05 is > connected via 20ma, not RS232. > (Assumption based on the fact that there's an easy fix in the KL8-JA; > given that this hasn't been used to fix the problem, it's probably not > an omnibus computer. Pre-8/E serial devices were often current loop.) Assumption wrong. :-) The original posted have a KL8-E, which is software compatible with the KL8-JA, but don't have the filler fix that the KL8-JA have. They are both omnibus devices. The KL8-E is actually kindof cool, since it implements a UART in discrete logic. One side effect of that implementation is that you can send a break character, since the transmit shift register is always loaded immideately, even is a character is currently being transmitted, and the stop bit is also shifted through the register, thus you can "overwrite" the stop bit with additional data. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Mon May 18 13:22:56 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 20:22:56 +0200 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A11A780.3060105@softjar.se> "bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca" wrote: > Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> > (And to make it clear: hardware flow control is definitely not possible >> > towards a PDP8) > > I use it all the time ... serial device is turned *ON* or *OFF*. :) Nothing prevents the PDP8 from sending data even if your serial device is turned off. :-) > What is needed is the reader run relay more likely than not. Hmm. The paper tape of the ASR33... Was there some signal run in parallel for the reader run? What did you hook the other end to then? The KL8-JA (and KL8-E) don't have any more signals that I can remember offhand. There was an option for the KL8-JA (called KL8-M I think) which implemented partial modem signaling, if you needed that. Never seen one in real life, and I can't remember if I ever read any documentation of it. But you'd most likely need software to actually implement the signaling anyway. It won't be a hardware-only solution... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From doc at vaxen.net Mon May 18 13:51:32 2009 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 13:51:32 -0500 (CDT) Subject: With great sorrow In-Reply-To: <4A11A504.1060604@vaxen.net> References: <4A11A504.1060604@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4A11AD0E.7090806@vaxen.net> Doc wrote: > Well, not really. I'm giving up most of my electronics and computer > stuff, but while it's all been great fun, I'm nor all that sad about it. > As elegant as this stuff can be, I finally get to start riding again, > and I need the space (and cash of course!). > > I'll be listing some of the high-dollar stuff on Ebay, but most of it > will go on VCM for free or peanuts. Details and pictures will come > later; this is just a high-level teaser. > > If there's something you want, hit me off-list and we'll discuss. > HUGE points and discounts for local pickup or if I can drop it off at > Craters & Freighters. Fixing the total-newbie mistake: "Local" is in Austin, Texas. Doc From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue May 19 03:37:52 2009 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 01:37:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Promotional posters from the Honeywell "animals" ad campaign Message-ID: <242866.84899.qm@web82605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> An eBay seller is selling what appear to be vintage promotional posters featuring the animal sculptures made out of computer parts that Honeywell commissioned for a long-running ad campaign. There are 17 different ones, with multiple copies (but not many) of each. http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/psobosik?_nkw=computer+poster --Bill From bqt at softjar.se Tue May 19 02:21:35 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 09:21:35 +0200 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A125DFF.8070401@softjar.se> ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> In general, when talking about DEC equipment, the answer to that >> question is *always* no, for the simple fact that DEC didn't do hardware >> flow control. Hardware flow control is actually against the RS-232 spec, >> and DEC didn't abuse standards (unlike most other companies). > > This reminds me of a comment I made about the HP82164 (HPIL to RS232 > interface). That thing follows the RS232 standard to the letter (for > example, it correctly handles the cotnrol lines in half duplex mode). > It's just a pity that nobody else does :-). Getting it to work with some > RS232 devices is 'interesting'.. Yeah. HP was actually the other company that actually seemed to read the standard. I don't know of anyone else than DEC and HP that even tried to actually follow the specs. One could only wish companies had. Everything would have been soo much easier in that case. Now almost everyone is confused when it comes to serial communication, and it's not because it actually is difficult, but people have just become so confused because they think it works one way just because the equipment they have do it that way, and when coming to any other equipment, nothing works the same way they are used to. >> (And to make it clear: hardware flow control is definitely not possible >> towards a PDP8) > > 'Nothing is impossible except skiing through a revolving door' :-) > > More seriously,. I would have thought you could make hardware > modifications ot the serial interface PCB, possibly to gate ome of the > ready signals with the flow control input. Or (in this case), detect the > CR (or is it LF that's the problem?) and then hold the ready line > deasseted either for enough time for the VT05 to complete its operation > or until it gets some ecternal acknowledge signal. > > No, I am not suggesting this is a sensible solution to the problem,but it > is _possible_ You are right of course. If you modify the hardware, you can always solve the problem. But it is probably a bit more complex than your suggestion above. But yes, any can be done. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From hamren at sdu.se Tue May 19 05:11:35 2009 From: hamren at sdu.se (Lars Hamren) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 12:11:35 +0200 Subject: 35KSR In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A1285D7.3000106@sdu.se> > And FYI - did you mean ASR 35? I didn't think there was a KSR version of the > 35, but I could be wrong. I have several Bulletins on the KSR and RO versions, so it does exist. Also, the several of the 35 bulletins at bitsavers covers the KSR model, not the ASR model. /Lars Hamr?n From hamren at sdu.se Tue May 19 05:34:49 2009 From: hamren at sdu.se (Lars Hamren) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 12:34:49 +0200 Subject: US 3-hole binders In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A128B49.9050508@sdu.se> I am seeking to replace floppy low-quality ring binders. Where, preferrably in Europe, can I find good-quality binders: - Standard US 3-hole - "Fork" binders, not ring binders, se image. - With wooden spine, or other rigid type that will not bend or fall over. http://www.sdu.se/computer-automation-museum/pub/gallery/3-hole-binder.jpg /Lars Hamr?n From williams.dan at gmail.com Tue May 19 06:46:24 2009 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 12:46:24 +0100 Subject: Where would one use a DEC BC13J? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26c11a640905190446k4a11d84cn2b391f0975e18b7b@mail.gmail.com> 2009/5/19 Ethan Dicks : > All, > > I have a small pile of NIB DEC BC13J-08 cables with 1997 mfg dates on > the bags. ?They are DB25M w/pins 1-8+20 on one end, and RJ45 on the > other. ?I'm used to DEC MMJ cables, but not DEC RJ45 serial. ?Does > anyone know what these were used for originally? ?I googled for them, > of course, but found little hard info - mostly for-sale listings. > > Thanks for shedding any light. > > -ethan > I would guess one of the Decserver products, some of those have RJ45, some have DB25. Dan From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue May 19 06:51:32 2009 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 07:51:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 68000 coprocessor board In-Reply-To: <200905190521.n4J5LvFW041327@lots.reanimators.org> References: <200905151516.n4FFGml07992@h-68-165-246-86-static.mclnva23.covad.net> <4A0DD03B.2010005@bitsavers.org> <4A0D7815.16762.BC14ED@cclist.sydex.com> <200905190521.n4J5LvFW041327@lots.reanimators.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 May 2009, Frank McConnell wrote: > Mike Loewen wrote: >> I'm trying to find some documentation for an HSC C016 processor >> board, which came with an IMSAI 8080 I acquired. It has a Motorola >> 68000 8MHz processor, and connects to a Cromemco ZPU board in the >> IMSAI via a small daughterboard which plugs in underneath the Z80A. I >> have a 8" disk for it which has CP/M 68K and some software for >> switching back and forth between processors (apparently). > > I've got four manuals: > CO-1668 User's Manual > Users Manual for Z80 Cross Assembler > Users Manual for MC68000 Cross Assembler > CO1668 CPM 68K Implementation Users Manual Thanks for the info, Frank. Someone else who has one is sending me the manuals to scan, which I will post on my site (and send to Al) for download. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From james at jdfogg.com Tue May 19 07:33:09 2009 From: james at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 08:33:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: With great sorrow In-Reply-To: <4A11B789.9080309@vaxen.net> References: <4A11B789.9080309@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <3538.192.168.99.134.1242736389.squirrel@webmail.jdfogg.com> > I should also have mentioned that I'll take Foredom handpieces and > tools, jeweler's torch and/or oxy-acetylene gauges, a precision drill > press, tabletop mill or lathe, or a good stationary belt sander in > trade. If it says Craftsman, Ryobi, Jet, or Delta on it, it's not what > I'm talking about. ;) I may soon have an O2 concentrator available, but shipping would be prohibitive, for either of us. -- James - From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue May 19 08:36:50 2009 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 09:36:50 -0400 Subject: What is this computer Message-ID: Does it ring a bell? From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue May 19 08:47:45 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 06:47:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What is this computer Message-ID: <580916.71137.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 5/19/09, 9000 VAX wrote: > Does it ring a bell? > I don't know. Does it have a bell to ring? Most computers used a speaker instead of a mechanical bell, but the ASR33 teletype has one, as does the Burroughs B80. Yeah... I dunno - I need a little more information to go on. A description would be nice. A picture even better. :) -Ian From slawmaster at gmail.com Tue May 19 08:49:37 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 09:49:37 -0400 Subject: What is this computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7d3530220905190649i437a7ebcs81b9308ac0e0b505@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 9:36 AM, 9000 VAX wrote: > Does it ring a bell? > It might ring a bell, if it has a bell inside it. Of course, since we don't seem to have a picture, a link to a picture, or a name, there's no way to know if it has a bell. :) John -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue May 19 08:54:24 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 09:54:24 -0400 Subject: What is this computer In-Reply-To: <580916.71137.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <580916.71137.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I don't know. Does it have a bell to ring? Most computers used a speaker instead of a mechanical bell, but the ASR33 teletype has one, as does the Burroughs B80. So does the Bendix G15 and DEC LINC-8. -- Will From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue May 19 08:54:41 2009 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 09:54:41 -0400 Subject: What is this computer (picture) Message-ID: The link is http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/4hm2nlcHCZcrQtJeehbykA?feat=directlink On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 9:36 AM, 9000 VAX wrote: > Does it ring a bell? > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue May 19 09:14:12 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 16:14:12 +0200 Subject: What is this computer (picture) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090519141412.GA1137@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 09:54:41AM -0400, 9000 VAX wrote: > The link is > > http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/4hm2nlcHCZcrQtJeehbykA?feat=directlink > > On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 9:36 AM, 9000 VAX wrote: > > > Does it ring a bell? > > Not sure if it has a bell, but a quick google tells me it is a Princeton Gamma Tech System 4: http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/dec.html Cheers, Pontus From bob at jfcl.com Tue May 19 09:52:02 2009 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 07:52:02 -0700 Subject: Open source, stand alone, ASCII terminal project, UPDATE Message-ID: <003a01c9d891$5ec005b0$1c401110$@com> Back in December I posted about an open source, stand alone ASCII terminal project for old computers - http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2008-December/265312.html The VT6, a simplified single host port version, is available now - PC boards, partial kits and full kits of all parts. It was actually available back in March, but the first run of parts sold out just on the Spare Time Gizmos group and I never got a chance to announce it elsewhere. The second, much larger, run of parts is now available and hopefully there should be plenty this time around. The VT6 is a small PC board, about 2.5" by 4", that uses a VGA monitor and a PS/2 keyboard and is able to do pretty much anything a VT220 can. The firmware is about 95% written in C (with about 5% assembler) and is open source and GPL licensed. The tool chain used for development, including the SDCC C compiler, is all free. The microprocessor is flash based and firmware updates can be downloaded from any PC over an ordinary serial port. If you need a terminal, it's just the thing to stick in the back of your classic computer. The hardware for the other version of this terminal, known as the VT5 is also finished and really only needs the firmware to be ready. The VT5 supports multiple host ports and sessions with split screen displays, downloadable fonts and (if we can get the firmware written!) ReGIS and/or Tek 4010 type graphics. The firmware is really the limiting factor for everything (isn't that always the truth??) and we could use help with the programming. There's a Source Forge project for the firmware here - http://vt4.sourceforge.net and the Spare Time Gizmos page for the VT6 parts and PCBs is here - http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/VT.htm There's also a manual (unfinished - we could use help with that too!) - http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Downloads/vt.pdf Bob Armstrong From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue May 19 09:56:22 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 07:56:22 -0700 Subject: S-100 power supply transformer In-Reply-To: <000701c9d84c$32823d00$0201a8c0@hal9000> References: <000701c9d84c$32823d00$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: Hi This is the result of when the current actually flows. It only flows when the voltage is near the peak. This changes the average power dissipated in the secondary winding ( the VA rating ). Altough, the 1.414 is the worst value and the real value is somewhere between 1 and 1.414. It make no difference what type of rectification is used, fullwave bridge or center tap. Watts are watts and there is no way around it. It is true that the load current rating is halved for the secondary turns for the center tapped fullwave rectification but the VA rating of the transformer remains the same. I'm not sure what the book you reference says. I do know how power is calculated and it is always the vectored volts times amps. The current flows out of the transformer when the output voltage is close to the peak. This means that the rms current of the secondary needs to be compensated to account for when the current actually flows. If your transformer has a secondary rated at 10 amps that can only feed a rectifier and capacitor filter of 7.07 amps. That would change if feeding a inductive filter because of when the current flows. If it was a center tapped with two diodes, it would be 14.14 amps instead of 20 amps. Still, the VA rating of the transformer does change. Dwight ---------------------------------------- > From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net > To: cctech at classiccmp.org; cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: S-100 power supply transformer > Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 23:36:52 -0700 > > Dwight, > > I think a little explanation is in order, otherwise your info borders on > incorrect. You need to increase the CURRENT rating of the transformer by > 1.4, but this only applies to a full wave rectifier topology and not a full > wave BRIDGE topology. > > reference: The holy book " The art of electronics " page 47 > > Best regards, Steven > > >> ---------------------------------------- >>> From: lynchaj at yahoo.com >>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >>> Subject: S-100 power supply transformer >>> Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 16:51:44 -0400 >>> >>> Hi! Does anyone know of an available transformer suitable for making an >>> S-100 power supply? I need 120VAC input and 10VAC output and +/- 18VAC >>> outputs. >>> >>> The best I solution I can find is two separate 80VA transformers; one >>> parallel 10VAC output and another 36VCT output which can be configured > for >>> +/-18VAC outputs. >>> >> ---snip--- >> >> Hi >> What you want is an 8 volt and a 13.5 volt AC. You forget >> that the DC voltage is created from the peaks not the RMS >> average. You have to account for diode drop as well. >> That is how I got the numbers. I assumed full wave rectification >> and .6v per diode. >> Dwight >> > > Hi > I forgot to mention. You need to derate the transformer > as well. The problem is that the current flows when the > voltage is the highest ( or close to it ). The math is a little > complicated but it means you need to increase the rating of > the transformer by at least 1.414. > If you can't find a transformer with the right windings, > I recommend looking at toroidal transformers. These can > easily have turns added to increase or buck the voltage > of the secondary. > Dwight > _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_BR_life_in_synch_052009 From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue May 19 10:03:53 2009 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 11:03:53 -0400 Subject: One Div Zero: A Brief, Incomplete, and Mostly Wrong History of Programming Languages Message-ID: <4A12CA59.6090405@sbcglobal.net> http://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-mostly-wrong.html -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From superedgarvm at gmail.com Tue May 19 09:29:12 2009 From: superedgarvm at gmail.com (Edgar Velasquez Mercado) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 09:29:12 -0500 Subject: request information about your RF35/RZ35 hard disks Message-ID: Greetings: I have just read this announce you have posted some time ago http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2003-March/012694.html, I know it's very old, but I'm interested to buy one of your hard drives, If you still have them, please contact with me. PD. sorry for typos, my english is not very good. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 19 10:18:50 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 11:18:50 -0400 Subject: One Div Zero: A Brief, Incomplete, and Mostly Wrong History of Programming Languages In-Reply-To: <4A12CA59.6090405@sbcglobal.net> References: <4A12CA59.6090405@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 11:03 AM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > http://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-mostly-wrong.html I am soooooo glad I didn't have a mouthful of coffee/soda/milk when I read this. That would have led to spraying down the laptop. Thanks for sharing that! -ethan From chris at mainecoon.com Tue May 19 10:25:17 2009 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 08:25:17 -0700 Subject: One Div Zero: A Brief, Incomplete, and Mostly Wrong History of Programming Languages In-Reply-To: References: <4A12CA59.6090405@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <4A12CF5D.1020508@mainecoon.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I am soooooo glad I didn't have a mouthful of coffee/soda/milk when I > read this. That would have led to spraying down the laptop. I wish I could say the same. What a mess! > Thanks for sharing that! It was positively brilliant, but it really needed a "beverage alert" disclaimer! -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From imsaicollector at yahoo.com Tue May 19 10:40:29 2009 From: imsaicollector at yahoo.com (Michael Hart) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 08:40:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IMSAI 8080 for sale.... Message-ID: <197863.63354.qm@web57008.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I would agree if all you wanted to do was toggle the front panel switches. --- On Mon, 5/18/09, Golan Klinger wrote: From: Golan Klinger Subject: Re: IMSAI 8080 for sale.... To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Monday, May 18, 2009, 6:41 PM http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180357914217 Looks like that one was a steal. -- Golan Klinger Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From imsaicollector at yahoo.com Tue May 19 10:46:08 2009 From: imsaicollector at yahoo.com (Michael Hart) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 08:46:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IMSAI 8080 for sale.... Message-ID: <312524.7251.qm@web57004.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Exactly!!! --- On Mon, 5/18/09, Bill Sudbrink wrote: From: Bill Sudbrink Subject: RE: IMSAI 8080 for sale.... To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Monday, May 18, 2009, 7:44 PM Golan Klinger wrote: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180357914217 > > Looks like that one was a steal. No drives... Floppy controller clearly untested... No boot or other floppy disks... The only verification of "works" is that the lights changed when the seller played with the switches. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 19 10:57:12 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 11:57:12 -0400 Subject: One Div Zero: A Brief, Incomplete, and Mostly Wrong History of Programming Languages In-Reply-To: <4A12CA59.6090405@sbcglobal.net> References: <4A12CA59.6090405@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On May 19, 2009, at 11:03 AM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > http://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-mostly- > wrong.html Wow, that was good. :) It definitely needs a beverage warning though. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue May 19 11:02:24 2009 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 12:02:24 -0400 Subject: One Div Zero: A Brief, Incomplete, and Mostly Wrong History of Programming Languages In-Reply-To: <4A12CF5D.1020508@mainecoon.com> References: <4A12CA59.6090405@sbcglobal.net> <4A12CF5D.1020508@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <4A12D810.5000000@sbcglobal.net> Chris Kennedy wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> I am soooooo glad I didn't have a mouthful of coffee/soda/milk when I >> read this. That would have led to spraying down the laptop. > > I wish I could say the same. What a mess! > >> Thanks for sharing that! > > It was positively brilliant, but it really needed a "beverage alert" > disclaimer! > But then I wouldn't get a good chuckle.... ;-) -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Tue May 19 11:02:36 2009 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 09:02:36 -0700 Subject: Possible PDP 11/34 on ebay In-Reply-To: <242866.84899.qm@web82605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <242866.84899.qm@web82605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A12D81C.7070007@sbcglobal.net> Here's an auction for a piece of equipment that appears to be controlled by a PDP 11/34. Also uses some HP terminals. They are open to offers so someone might contact them to see if they will part out the unit for the computer. Item number: 360087718037 Bob From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Wed May 20 11:13:39 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 12:13:39 -0400 Subject: IMSAI 8080 for sale.... In-Reply-To: <312524.7251.qm@web57004.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200905191613.n4JGDiAl067005@keith.ezwind.net> Had I seen it before it sold I would have purchased it in a minute! And put MPM 1.1 on it. But than again I was into SD Systems back in the days I was made a bunch of CPM and MPM boot disks. I had my MPM system in a Cromemco case and always wanted an IMSI case. My first computer was a PDP8e making flipping switches close to my heart :) If the new owner is here somewhere? I would like to talk with them off line. I have an SD200 and few SD spares around here somewhere. If the Caps dont blow, and the disks are still readable, I have the bios & xios source for that board set. It has all been in storage for ~20 years. BTW: SD Systems produced the first Z80 card in the market, It was an IMSAI replacement with a working front pannel plug. Some where around my Cave I have a (was) working SD Z80 REV1 card with a lot of 30ga mods on the back that ran 24/7 for years talking to a Morows M26, console, and 4 user terminals. Applications were all written and compiled using BASCOM. Again I digress, back under my rock :) Bob Bradlee On Tue, 19 May 2009 08:46:08 -0700 (PDT), Michael Hart wrote: >Exactly!!! >--- On Mon, 5/18/09, Bill Sudbrink wrote: >From: Bill Sudbrink >Subject: RE: IMSAI 8080 for sale.... >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >Date: Monday, May 18, 2009, 7:44 PM >Golan Klinger wrote: >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180357914217 >> >> Looks like that one was a steal. >No drives... Floppy controller clearly untested... No boot >or other floppy disks... The only verification of "works" >is that the lights changed when the seller played with the >switches. > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue May 19 11:14:00 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:14:00 +0200 Subject: Possible PDP 11/34 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4A12D81C.7070007@sbcglobal.net> References: <242866.84899.qm@web82605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A12D81C.7070007@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20090519161400.GA7830@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 09:02:36AM -0700, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > Here's an auction for a piece of equipment that appears to be controlled > by a PDP 11/34. Also uses some HP terminals. > > They are open to offers so someone might contact them to see if they > will part out the unit for the computer. > > Item number: > > 360087718037 > > Bob Cheaper here : http://uen.hsix.com/q/webinv/008150=p,,,,a,,,20014869,, :) The paper punch/reader is nice to. /Pontus From sethm at loomcom.com Tue May 19 11:16:48 2009 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 09:16:48 -0700 Subject: IMSAI 8080 for sale.... In-Reply-To: References: <965950.62472.qm@web57001.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 1:10 PM, David Griffith wrote: > Speaking as someone who has sold a few IMSAIs on Ebay, here's my take on it. > ?$2000 for a known-working IMSAI-8080 with peripherals is a very good deal. > ?I sold a machine with a CPU and a defective memory board (noted that fact > on the auction page) for $1700. ?With all the goodies you're tossing in, > it's a steal. How times change... when I started this computer collecting bug in the early 1990s, people would just give away this stuff. "You actually want this junk?! Here, have it!" :-) (But I'm not at all disputing that $2000 is a good bargain now. It is!) -Seth From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 19 11:27:32 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 12:27:32 -0400 Subject: IMSAI 8080 for sale.... In-Reply-To: References: <965950.62472.qm@web57001.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <91AB785C-AC3E-4514-A6EA-245402D3BF4E@neurotica.com> On May 19, 2009, at 12:16 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: >> Speaking as someone who has sold a few IMSAIs on Ebay, here's my >> take on it. >> $2000 for a known-working IMSAI-8080 with peripherals is a very >> good deal. >> I sold a machine with a CPU and a defective memory board (noted >> that fact >> on the auction page) for $1700. With all the goodies you're >> tossing in, >> it's a steal. > > How times change... when I started this computer collecting bug in the > early 1990s, people would just give away this stuff. "You actually > want this junk?! Here, have it!" :-) I'm sure the same thing happened with Model-A Fords around 1940. > (But I'm not at all disputing that $2000 is a good bargain now. It > is!) Absolutely. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 19 11:30:05 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 09:30:05 -0700 Subject: IMSAI 8080 for sale.... In-Reply-To: <200905191613.n4JGDiAl067005@keith.ezwind.net> References: <312524.7251.qm@web57004.mail.re3.yahoo.com>, <200905191613.n4JGDiAl067005@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4A127C1D.12868.54ADD17@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 May 2009 at 12:13, Bob Bradlee wrote: > BTW: SD Systems produced the first Z80 card in the market, It was an > IMSAI replacement with a working front pannel plug. I think I've got one of those. 2708 EPROM on board? I made an adapter to go from the front-panel DIP socket to the molex connector used by the MITS Altair. Was it really the first one? --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 19 11:33:58 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 10:33:58 -0600 Subject: Open source, stand alone, ASCII terminal project, UPDATE In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 19 May 2009 07:52:02 -0700. <003a01c9d891$5ec005b0$1c401110$@com> Message-ID: Neat! I browsed through your source on subversion for a while, but I didn't see where the Tektronix 4010/Regis graphics code was located? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 19 11:40:39 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 12:40:39 -0400 Subject: IMSAI 8080 for sale.... In-Reply-To: References: <965950.62472.qm@web57001.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 12:16 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 1:10 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> Speaking as someone who has sold a few IMSAIs on Ebay, here's my take on it. >> ?$2000 for a known-working IMSAI-8080 with peripherals is a very good deal... > > How times change... when I started this computer collecting bug in the > early 1990s, people would just give away this stuff. ?"You actually > want this junk?! Here, have it!" :-) There is definitely a geographic component to this - I started collecting machines in the 1980s. In all that time, I've been offered, for free or for sale, *one* plain-faced S-100 box and rescued a set of 3 S-100 (68K Godbout) boxes from a place I was working. OTOH, in that same timeframe and in that same place (Central Ohio), I've been given a number of DEC machines, 12-bit, 16-bit and 32-bit (and bought a few to fill in the gaps). If at any time someone had offered me an IMSAI, I would have taken it, but that never happened. The only one I've seen up close is the one that the Dayton Microcomputer Association (DMA) used to show off in their "museum" display at the the Computerfest. I know there must have been a bunch of S-100 owners in Columbus over the years, but the circles I traveled in were mostly Commodore and Atari when I was younger, then DEC when I was a bit older. S-100 machines just weren't part of what I saw no matter what decade, so I never was surprised not to get any offers when they did reach that low-point in value. I've learned lots about these machines on this list, but it's nearly all academic - I just have the one XOR box to play on, and it only has 4 slots (front-to-back, at 90 degrees to what I've seen in most S-100 boxes), so my peripheral options are limited. () There's still enough for CPU, memory, disk and serial/parallel I/O, if I wanted to populate it that way, but I'd be a bit squeezed if I wanted video, too (unless I ran across a newer card with a combo of features). Obviously I'd need a new enough memory card with a high enough density to be useful. An ancient card with 21L02s wouldn't get me very far. -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 19 11:52:45 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 10:52:45 -0600 Subject: Possible PDP 11/34 on ebay In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 19 May 2009 09:02:36 -0700. <4A12D81C.7070007@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: In article <4A12D81C.7070007 at sbcglobal.net>, Bob Rosenbloom writes: > Here's an auction for a piece of equipment that appears to be controlled > by a PDP 11/34. Also uses some HP terminals. 262x series and 264x series, to be somewhat precise. Its not clear if they are the graphics models from the series or the character model from the series. The 264x keyboard is on the right and the 262x keyboard is on top of the 262x. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From george at rachors.com Tue May 19 12:48:22 2009 From: george at rachors.com (George L. Rachor Jr.) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 10:48:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sun Ultra 10 needed In-Reply-To: References: <283524cadfe9cc2e01ed0f38427bcfb5.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> <20090518095516.S14393@racsys.rachors.com> Message-ID: <20090519104759.P23012@racsys.rachors.com> Always wanted to check that place out. Thanks for the suggestion! George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george at rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Mon, 18 May 2009, Paxton Hoag wrote: > George, > > You might check Free Geeks in Portland. I volunteer there and have > seen them on the shelf in the back at times. > > Paxton > > On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 11:58 AM, George L. Rachor Jr. > wrote: >> >> I know some folks that are in need of aquiring a Sun Ultra 10 workstation as >> a replacement for one that is being used as an instrument controller. >> >> The need is in the Portland Oregon Area. >> >> Do you have one in reasonable running condition and how much might it take >> for you to part with it? >> >> Are their trustworthy businesses that I could purchase one from? >> >> >> Best Regards, >> >> George Rachor >> >> ========================================================= >> George L. Rachor Jr. george at rachors.com >> Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com >> United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX >> >> > > > > -- > Paxton Hoag > Astoria, OR > USA > From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue May 19 12:50:09 2009 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 13:50:09 -0400 Subject: IMSAI 8080 for sale.... In-Reply-To: <200905191613.n4JGDiAl067005@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Bob Bradlee wrote: > Had I seen it before it sold I would have purchased it in a minute! Not saying it wasn't worth the money asked. Just pointing out that the poster who brought it up was not comparing apples-to-apples in regards to the IMSAI offered on this list. As a matter of fact, it almost proves the value of the IMSAI offered... base IMSAI unit, essentially untested with documents $1100 (ebay price) add truly tested and working $200 (quite reasonable) add 2 working 8 inch floppy drives $400 (probably cheap) add known working boot disks $150 (also reasonable) add 40+ other known working application disks $150 (maybe a little expensive) --------- $2000 From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 19 13:15:07 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 11:15:07 -0700 Subject: S-100 power supply transformer In-Reply-To: References: , <000701c9d84c$32823d00$0201a8c0@hal9000>, Message-ID: <4A1294BB.16970.5AB11A2@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 May 2009 at 7:56, dwight elvey wrote: > It make no difference what type of rectification is used, > fullwave bridge or center tap. Watts are watts and there is > no way around it. What surprises me is to see that a transformer with 2 secondary windings would be operated with the windings in parallel to feed a bridge rectifier rather than in series to feed a full-wave center- tapped arrangement. Why incur the heat loss of an extra diode pair with a bridge, when a simple 2-diode fullwave will do? With a low- voltage high-current supply a substantial amount of power is dissipated by those diodes. Another thing that might be considered is a simple switching regulator for the output to allow one to adjust the voltage for optimimum on-board linear regulator operation. High-current FETs are cheap and the circuit can be driven by a wide variety of choices of IC. I realize that it wouldn't be "vintage", however. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 19 13:17:58 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 14:17:58 -0400 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild? In-Reply-To: <4A125DFF.8070401@softjar.se> References: <4A125DFF.8070401@softjar.se> Message-ID: <184EA6D5-30D8-4ADF-9E02-E7831708BF7B@neurotica.com> On May 19, 2009, at 3:21 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> In general, when talking about DEC equipment, the answer to that >>> question is *always* no, for the simple fact that DEC didn't do >>> hardware flow control. Hardware flow control is actually against >>> the RS-232 spec, and DEC didn't abuse standards (unlike most >>> other companies). >> This reminds me of a comment I made about the HP82164 (HPIL to >> RS232 interface). That thing follows the RS232 standard to the >> letter (for example, it correctly handles the cotnrol lines in >> half duplex mode). It's just a pity that nobody else does :-). >> Getting it to work with some RS232 devices is 'interesting'.. > > Yeah. HP was actually the other company that actually seemed to > read the standard. I don't know of anyone else than DEC and HP that > even tried to actually follow the specs. > One could only wish companies had. Everything would have been soo > much easier in that case. Now almost everyone is confused when it > comes to serial communication, and it's not because it actually is > difficult, but people have just become so confused because they > think it works one way just because the equipment they have do it > that way, and when coming to any other equipment, nothing works the > same way they are used to. Well, you've got to admit that things would've been a whole lot easier if it weren't for the whole DTE/DCE fiasco. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Wed May 20 13:35:47 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 14:35:47 -0400 Subject: IMSAI 8080 for sale.... In-Reply-To: <4A127C1D.12868.54ADD17@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200905191835.n4JIZpd1094246@keith.ezwind.net> On Tue, 19 May 2009 09:30:05 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 20 May 2009 at 12:13, Bob Bradlee wrote: >> BTW: SD Systems produced the first Z80 card in the market, It was an >> IMSAI replacement with a working front pannel plug. >I think I've got one of those. 2708 EPROM on board? I made an >adapter to go from the front-panel DIP socket to the molex connector >used by the MITS Altair. >Was it really the first one? >--Chuck They were called SD Sales at the time they produced the first Z80 kit. They were real prowd of makeing the first S100 Z80 Card that work and ran a few adds anounceing it, in Byte & DrDobs that would have been in late 77 early 78. They then came out with a full line of cards and 2 complete systems in 1979..1980 under the SD Systems name. They were on the North East side of Dallas TX in late 1979 when I flew out to talk with them about a dealorship. As I recal they got into Loto machines and went out of business, but I may be mistaken. I did not keep track of them after about 1981..1982. later Bob From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 19 14:04:42 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 12:04:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What is this computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090519120307.B89238@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 19 May 2009, 9000 VAX wrote: > Does it ring a bell? Did you output Ctrl-G ? From spectre at floodgap.com Tue May 19 14:19:07 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 12:19:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: looking for SGI Indy Presenter cable Message-ID: <200905191919.n4JJJ7Ud004054@floodgap.com> Looking for a video cable for an SGI Indy Presenter Panel. My investigation indicates that a 68-pin SCSI cable might actually fit this but I'm not sure if it's wired straight-thru. Anyone have one they would part with, or would be willing to check the pins for me, please let me know off list. Thank you kindly :) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Mmmm, Windows user. Crunchy and good with ketchup. -- Dave McGuire --------- From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 19 11:08:10 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 10:08:10 -0600 Subject: What is this computer (picture) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 19 May 2009 16:14:12 +0200. <20090519141412.GA1137@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: In article <20090519141412.GA1137 at Update.UU.SE>, Pontus Pihlgren writes: > Not sure if it has a bell, but a quick google tells me it is a Princeton > Gamma Tech System 4: > > http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/dec.html A nice little turnkey system based around LSI-11 with graphics. Its a shame that "Herb" (is that his real name? Why should I take his collection seriously when he uses a pseudonym!) disassembled his system for parts. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 19 14:49:34 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 20:49:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Nostalgic technologies article In-Reply-To: from "Mark Tapley" at May 18, 9 03:34:19 pm Message-ID: > > Hello all, > FYI&D, an article on MSN tech & gadgets describing "25 > Computer products that refused to die". > > http://tech.msn.com/howto/articlepcw.aspx?cp-documentid=19017036&page=1 > > The list is: I, and I guess many others here, are still actively using some of those... > > Dot-matrix printers Techncially, aren't both inkjet printers and laser printers types of 'dot matrix printer'? But assuming you mean the pin impact matrix printers, they're still essential if you need a true carbon copy, of course. And I'll bet many of use seill use at least one classic dot matrix printer... > Hayes modems Just about all modems are Hayes compatible (and I think you can still buy dial-up modems...) > Sony Minidiscs Hmmm.. I spotted a 'Minidisk Walkman' (portable playback-only minidisk player) along with a 'Network Walkman' (looks to be an MP3 player, it's got a Toshiba PCMCIA hard disk inside) for \pounds 1.00 each in a charity shop last week. Yes I bought them (I don;t know why, my idea of a portable sound reproduction device is a Philips EL3586, but anyway..) > Monochrome Displays Using an original 5151 right now > Hercules Graphics Graphics be damned. I am using an MDA (text only) card... > > PDA's (in favor of smarter cellphones) My HP95LX does all that I want... > Packard-Bell > Amiga > Floppy Disks Of course. Is there anyone here who doesn't use floppies? > Zip disks When I read this on a list of 'products the refused to die', I burst out laughing. IIRC the Zip disk was known for the 'click of death'. I never had one for obvious (if you know me) reasons. > > Z80 CPU's I have lost cound of how many Z80s I am using... > dBase > NetScape > MS-DOS Of course. And not just IBM PC compatible versions either... > Lotus 1-2-3 When I need a spreadsheet, I find the 1-2-3 built into the 95LX (see above) does all I need. > > PageMaker > After Dark > Harvard Graphics > Alta Vista > Webvan > > Compuserve > Prodigy > VCR+ > Circuit City > Egghead -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 19 14:52:40 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 20:52:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Nostalgic technologies article In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at May 18, 9 05:03:06 pm Message-ID: > >> Z80 CPU's > > > > Yummy! > > I have fired up my TRS-80 Model III in the past two weeks. *looks out > at the other M3 owners on the list* Have you?!? ;-) I tend to use the M4 now, I've not used the M3 for over a year. And I've not powered up the M4 in the lsat couple of weeks. On the other hand I have been actively restoring an HP120, which is a CP/M machine containing a pair of Z80As -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 19 14:56:14 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 20:56:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re-installing a TouchTone keypad in an ASR-33 In-Reply-To: <4A116AF1.2485.11FC63A@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 18, 9 02:04:33 pm Message-ID: > > On 18 May 2009 at 16:17, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > Oh, how thoroughly bizarre. Thanks for the explanation. I'd love > > > > to see a SPICE simulation of that. > > What's noteworthy is the stability of the thing. ISTR that DTMF > signalling relies on a tolerance of something like +/-2%. A mass- > produced LC oscillator that operates reliably close to tolerances in > a steel mill or a meat-packing plant is a marvel. Doea anyone know where I could obtain one of these 1-transistor keypads? I bought a few US 'phones in a second-hand shop over here [1]. Most of them have rotary dials, but the pushbutton one has a keypad with na IC on it (cryptically labelled, but it's the same pinout and functionality as one of the standard DTMF enocders made by TI et al). I was somewhat disapointed, I'd much prefer the 1-transistor verison. I've not looked on E-bay, so if they're common there, feel free to tell me... [1] One of them is a 564 (I think). It's got the row of buttons in front of the dial to select one of severla lines, etc. Do scheamtics for such things exist on-line anywhere? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 19 15:02:32 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 21:02:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re-installing a TouchTone keypad in an ASR-33 In-Reply-To: <4A11DC3A.8010802@stillhq.com> from "Doug Jackson" at May 19, 9 08:07:54 am Message-ID: > (Sorry, Could Not Resist, being from the OLD school, where we simulated > using Veroboard - Now the local electronics magazine is shirty if I Err, I _still_ prototype using veroboard. And I don't do any simulations first. And yse, things work, often first time... > provide a design that uses Veroboard as "Our readers don't like > Veroboard" ----- Bugga! ) ARGH. Which magazine is this (so I know to avoid it)? -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue May 19 15:46:30 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 16:46:30 -0400 Subject: HP1000 available Message-ID: Fair Radio has a rack with an HP1000 (a blinkenlights version) tucked in the back. It is missing some cards, but in general looks pretty nice. It was part of a larger specialized HP test set. The Dayton crowd apparently was not too interested. I have no idea what price is on the thing - probably an "ask". Blatant plug, 'cuz I owe Phil a favor. -- Will From slawmaster at gmail.com Tue May 19 15:55:40 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 16:55:40 -0400 Subject: What is this computer (picture) In-Reply-To: References: <20090519141412.GA1137@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <7d3530220905191355u52264994s53fada36d3bbc455@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article <20090519141412.GA1137 at Update.UU.SE>, > ? ?Pontus Pihlgren ?writes: > >> Not sure if it has a bell, but a quick google tells me it is a Princeton >> Gamma Tech System 4: >> >> http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/dec.html > > A nice little turnkey system based around LSI-11 with graphics. ?Its a > shame that "Herb" (is that his real name? ?Why should I take his > collection seriously when he uses a pseudonym!) disassembled his > system for parts. What exactly makes you think he's using a pseudonym? I see small reason to come up with a full pseudonym "Herb Johnson" and then use it through every single page in what looks to be quite a large site. I mean, seriously, what the hell? John -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue May 19 15:57:53 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 21:57:53 +0100 Subject: Nostalgic technologies article In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A131D51.3070702@philpem.me.uk> David Griffith wrote: >> Sony Minidiscs > > Sony botched this one badly. It could have replaced the floppy disk > years before Iomega tried to do so with the Zip. Aye, too true. I am, however, still keeping my MZ-RH1 (that'll be MZ-M200 to anyone on the other side of the pond) on the grounds that it's the best tool I've found to record lectures *and* listen to music on the train. I've never met anyone who could talk for long enough to fill an entire HiMD disc on Hi-LP mode (IIRC that's about 35 hours). Crippling NetMD (the PC <==> MD transfer system) to only allow transfers from PC to MD (and prevent you deleting those tracks even if they weren't covered by SonicStage's DRM -- you can get around this with a CD emulator and a copy of Simple Burner) was a terrifically bad idea. Though that said, at least they left the optical output relatively unmolested. The RH1 seems to have been built as a "last ditch" by Sony. Something along the lines of "this may well be the last MD recorder we ever design, so let's make it *really* *friggin'* *good*". The lack of any significant volume limiting on the headphone output of European RH1s (unlike previous MD units) and the HD-Digital amplifier were the icing on the cake. They have carved themselves something of a niche though -- nearly every journalist I know or have met either owns or has access to a Minidisc recorder. I've heard they're popular with musicians as well (sound quality vs. cost, I guess). You can have my Minidisc recorder when you pry it from my cold dead hands! -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From js at cimmeri.com Tue May 19 16:00:06 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 16:00:06 -0500 Subject: What is this computer (picture) In-Reply-To: <7d3530220905191355u52264994s53fada36d3bbc455@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090519141412.GA1137@Update.UU.SE> <7d3530220905191355u52264994s53fada36d3bbc455@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A131DD6.2090708@cimmeri.com> >> A nice little turnkey system based around LSI-11 with graphics. Its a >> shame that "Herb" (is that his real name? Why should I take his >> collection seriously when he uses a pseudonym!) disassembled his >> system for parts. >> > > What exactly makes you think he's using a pseudonym? I see small > reason to come up with a full pseudonym "Herb Johnson" and then use it > through every single page in what looks to be quite a large site. I > mean, seriously, what the hell? > > John Herb Johnson is his real name... although I refer to him as "Herbal" Johnson. jS From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 19 16:04:55 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:04:55 -0400 Subject: What is this computer (picture) In-Reply-To: <4A131DD6.2090708@cimmeri.com> References: <20090519141412.GA1137@Update.UU.SE> <7d3530220905191355u52264994s53fada36d3bbc455@mail.gmail.com> <4A131DD6.2090708@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <9C2E0489-F642-462D-BD6C-4EFEC9AAE1A4@neurotica.com> On May 19, 2009, at 5:00 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: >>> A nice little turnkey system based around LSI-11 with graphics. >>> Its a >>> shame that "Herb" (is that his real name? Why should I take his >>> collection seriously when he uses a pseudonym!) disassembled his >>> system for parts. >>> >> >> What exactly makes you think he's using a pseudonym? I see small >> reason to come up with a full pseudonym "Herb Johnson" and then >> use it >> through every single page in what looks to be quite a large site. I >> mean, seriously, what the hell? >> >> John > Herb Johnson is his real name... although I refer to him as > "Herbal" Johnson. soda -> monitor -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue May 19 16:13:26 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:13:26 -0400 Subject: What is this computer (picture) In-Reply-To: <7d3530220905191355u52264994s53fada36d3bbc455@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090519141412.GA1137@Update.UU.SE> <7d3530220905191355u52264994s53fada36d3bbc455@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > What exactly makes you think he's using a pseudonym? I see small > reason to come up with a full pseudonym "Herb Johnson" and then use it > through every single page in what looks to be quite a large site. I > mean, seriously, what the hell? Herb is OK in my book. So, yes, I agree - what pseudonym? -- Will From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Tue May 19 16:34:12 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 14:34:12 -0700 Subject: S-100 power supply transformer References: <000701c9d84c$32823d00$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <002601c9d8c9$8d933230$0201a8c0@hal9000> I respectfully disagree. ? In a center-tapped full-wave rectifier circuit the output voltage is half what you get if you use a bridge rectifier. It is not the most efficient circuit in terms of transformer design, because each half of the secondary is used only half the time. Thus the current through the winding during that time is twice what it would be for a true full-wave circuit. Heating in the windings, using Ohm?s law, is I^2R, so you have four times the heating half the time, or twice the average heating of an equivalent full-wave bridge rectifier circuit. You would have to choose a transformer with a current rating 1.4 times as large as compared with the ( better ) bridge circuit; besides costing more, the resulting supply would be bulkier and heavier ?. from the good book ? ? The art of Electronics ? The disadvantage of a bridge is two diode voltage drops. Diodes are a lot cheaper than transformers though. Best regards, Steven ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi This is the result of when the current actually flows. It only flows when the voltage is near the peak. This changes the average power dissipated in the secondary winding ( the VA rating ). Altough, the 1.414 is the worst value and the real value is somewhere between 1 and 1.414. It make no difference what type of rectification is used, fullwave bridge or center tap. Watts are watts and there is no way around it. It is true that the load current rating is halved for the secondary turns for the center tapped fullwave rectification but the VA rating of the transformer remains the same. I'm not sure what the book you reference says. I do know how power is calculated and it is always the vectored volts times amps. The current flows out of the transformer when the output voltage is close to the peak. This means that the rms current of the secondary needs to be compensated to account for when the current actually flows. If your transformer has a secondary rated at 10 amps that can only feed a rectifier and capacitor filter of 7.07 amps. That would change if feeding a inductive filter because of when the current flows. If it was a center tapped with two diodes, it would be 14.14 amps instead of 20 amps. Still, the VA rating of the transformer does change. Dwight ---------------------------------------- > From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net > To: cctech at classiccmp.org; cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: S-100 power supply transformer > Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 23:36:52 -0700 > > Dwight, > > I think a little explanation is in order, otherwise your info borders on > incorrect. You need to increase the CURRENT rating of the transformer by > 1.4, but this only applies to a full wave rectifier topology and not a full > wave BRIDGE topology. > > reference: The holy book " The art of electronics " page 47 > > Best regards, Steven > > >> ---------------------------------------- >>> From: lynchaj at yahoo.com >>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >>> Subject: S-100 power supply transformer >>> Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 16:51:44 -0400 >>> >>> Hi! Does anyone know of an available transformer suitable for making an >>> S-100 power supply? I need 120VAC input and 10VAC output and +/- 18VAC >>> outputs. >>> >>> The best I solution I can find is two separate 80VA transformers; one >>> parallel 10VAC output and another 36VCT output which can be configured > for >>> +/-18VAC outputs. >>> >> ---snip--- >> >> Hi >> What you want is an 8 volt and a 13.5 volt AC. You forget >> that the DC voltage is created from the peaks not the RMS >> average. You have to account for diode drop as well. >> That is how I got the numbers. I assumed full wave rectification >> and .6v per diode. >> Dwight >> > > Hi > I forgot to mention. You need to derate the transformer > as well. The problem is that the current flows when the > voltage is the highest ( or close to it ). The math is a little > complicated but it means you need to increase the rating of > the transformer by at least 1.414. > If you can't find a transformer with the right windings, > I recommend looking at toroidal transformers. These can > easily have turns added to increase or buck the voltage > of the secondary. > Dwight From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 19 16:41:30 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:41:30 -0400 Subject: Re-installing a TouchTone keypad in an ASR-33 In-Reply-To: References: <4A116AF1.2485.11FC63A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 3:56 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Doea anyone know where I could obtain one of these 1-transistor keypads? > I bought a few US 'phones in a second-hand shop over here [1]. Given that the switch to IC-based tone generators looks to be around 1982, before the breakup of Ma Bell, I'd say that there are few phones in thrift stores here of that vintage any more. Maybe at an estate sale from someone who hasn't moved in 25 years. If you have access to lift the faceplate, look for a part number starting in '35' and a manufacturing date prior to 1982. You don't want a part number starting with '72'.* -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 19 16:44:37 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 15:44:37 -0600 Subject: Recent ASR33 teletype sale Message-ID: Wow. I'm used to these going for $200-500 in good cosmetic condition and working order, but this one maxed out higher than I expected at $1026. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From js at cimmeri.com Tue May 19 17:45:17 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:45:17 -0500 Subject: FS: Siemens FDD 100-8 In-Reply-To: <184EA6D5-30D8-4ADF-9E02-E7831708BF7B@neurotica.com> References: <4A125DFF.8070401@softjar.se> <184EA6D5-30D8-4ADF-9E02-E7831708BF7B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A13367D.1060105@cimmeri.com> I've one tested working in very good shape Siemens 8" FDD 100-8 drive for sale. Just thought I'd post here for any offers prior to the ebay route. I'll let go here for 25-50% less than ebay. Email for photos. jS From js at cimmeri.com Tue May 19 17:48:06 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:48:06 -0500 Subject: FF: Tandon TM848-01 In-Reply-To: <184EA6D5-30D8-4ADF-9E02-E7831708BF7B@neurotica.com> References: <4A125DFF.8070401@softjar.se> <184EA6D5-30D8-4ADF-9E02-E7831708BF7B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A133726.8040800@cimmeri.com> I've one non-functional but very good physical shape Tandon 8" TM848-01 available for free.. just cover the shipping. Perfect for parts. Email for photo. jS From sethm at loomcom.com Tue May 19 17:54:14 2009 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 15:54:14 -0700 Subject: Recent ASR33 teletype sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 2:44 PM, Richard wrote: > > > Wow. ?I'm used to these going for $200-500 in good cosmetic condition > and working order, but this one maxed out higher than I expected at $1026. That is pretty damn high! But it's also the nicest condition I've ever personally seen, I guess that had something to do with it. Still, yowch. -Seth From dundas at caltech.edu Tue May 19 17:56:47 2009 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 15:56:47 -0700 Subject: Looking for MS11-M tech manual Message-ID: Does anyone have a copy of the (DEC) MS11-M tech manual, EK-MS11M-TM? Manx has pointers for the user guide and print set, but not the tech manual. I need more information than is present in those two documents. I'd be happy to scan the manual, if someone has it and can't scan. Or a scan would be great. Thanks, John From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue May 19 19:48:20 2009 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 19:48:20 -0500 Subject: HP1000 available References: Message-ID: <025101c9d8e4$ac364270$c900a8c0@JWEST> Will wrote... > Fair Radio has a rack with an HP1000 (a blinkenlights version) tucked > in the back. Last thing I need is more HP1K's... but I'm always looking out for a few spare boards (I'm looking for FAB's at the moment for E series). If no one buys it whole to use, I might be interested in buying for parts. Jay From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 19 19:38:22 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 19:38:22 -0500 Subject: What is this computer (picture) In-Reply-To: <20090519141412.GA1137@Update.UU.SE> References: <20090519141412.GA1137@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090519193655.03a423e0@mail.threedee.com> At 09:14 AM 5/19/2009, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >Not sure if it has a bell, but a quick google tells me it is a Princeton >Gamma Tech System 4: > >http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/dec.html I've got one of those attached to my SEM. - John From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 19 11:04:02 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 10:04:02 -0600 Subject: What is this computer In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 19 May 2009 09:54:24 -0400. Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > > I don't know. Does it have a bell to ring? Most computers used a speaker in stead of a mechanical bell, but the ASR33 teletype has one, as does the Burroug hs B80. > > So does the Bendix G15 and DEC LINC-8. Also, I *think* the VT05 has a bell in it and not a buzzer. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 19 20:14:36 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 21:14:36 -0400 Subject: What is this computer (picture) In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20090519193655.03a423e0@mail.threedee.com> References: <20090519141412.GA1137@Update.UU.SE> <6.2.3.4.2.20090519193655.03a423e0@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <119CB630-67C5-4571-8323-57F686B446D6@neurotica.com> On May 19, 2009, at 8:38 PM, John Foust wrote: >> Not sure if it has a bell, but a quick google tells me it is a >> Princeton >> Gamma Tech System 4: >> >> http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/dec.html > > I've got one of those attached to my SEM. What SEM do you have? I've got an ETEC Autoscan. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 19 20:21:47 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 20:21:47 -0500 Subject: What is this computer (picture) In-Reply-To: <119CB630-67C5-4571-8323-57F686B446D6@neurotica.com> References: <20090519141412.GA1137@Update.UU.SE> <6.2.3.4.2.20090519193655.03a423e0@mail.threedee.com> <119CB630-67C5-4571-8323-57F686B446D6@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090519201930.03ccfa60@mail.threedee.com> At 08:14 PM 5/19/2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > What SEM do you have? I've got an ETEC Autoscan. I have an Amray 1610 with the PGT X-ray spectrometer that pairs with the aforementioned computer. I have disks and docs, but the computer doesn't boot. I moved it to storage until that great shining Someday when I can figure out why. - John From js at cimmeri.com Tue May 19 21:20:59 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 21:20:59 -0500 Subject: FF: Tandon TM848-01 In-Reply-To: <4A133726.8040800@cimmeri.com> References: <4A125DFF.8070401@softjar.se> <184EA6D5-30D8-4ADF-9E02-E7831708BF7B@neurotica.com> <4A133726.8040800@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <4A13690B.9010609@cimmeri.com> Claimed. js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > I've one non-functional but very good physical shape Tandon 8" > TM848-01 available for free.. just cover the shipping. Perfect for > parts. > > Email for photo. > > jS > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue May 19 21:24:29 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 19:24:29 -0700 Subject: What is this computer (picture) In-Reply-To: References: <20090519141412.GA1137@Update.UU.SE> <7d3530220905191355u52264994s53fada36d3bbc455@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:13:26 -0400 > Subject: Re: What is this computer (picture) > From: wdonzelli at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> What exactly makes you think he's using a pseudonym? I see small >> reason to come up with a full pseudonym "Herb Johnson" and then use it >> through every single page in what looks to be quite a large site. I >> mean, seriously, what the hell? > > Herb is OK in my book. So, yes, I agree - what pseudonym? > > -- > Will Hi Will, I object to you calling your self Will instead of William. How about all those guys calling them selves Bob instead of Robert. Bob doesn't even sound like Robert. Herb has gall calling himself Herb instead of Herbert. ( humor in case someone takes offence ) I just wonder what nickname I could use for Dwight. PS Will Where in the US is the HP1000? Dwight ( for lack of a nickname ) _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail? has a new way to see what's up with your friends. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/WhatsNew?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_WhatsNew1_052009 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue May 19 21:27:29 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 20:27:29 -0600 Subject: What is this computer (picture) In-Reply-To: References: <20090519141412.GA1137@Update.UU.SE> <7d3530220905191355u52264994s53fada36d3bbc455@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A136A91.2090500@jetnet.ab.ca> dwight elvey wrote: > > > ---------------------------------------- >> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:13:26 -0400 >> Subject: Re: What is this computer (picture) >> From: wdonzelli at gmail.com >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> >>> What exactly makes you think he's using a pseudonym? I see small >>> reason to come up with a full pseudonym "Herb Johnson" and then use it >>> through every single page in what looks to be quite a large site. I >>> mean, seriously, what the hell? >> Herb is OK in my book. So, yes, I agree - what pseudonym? >> >> -- >> Will > > Hi Will, > I object to you calling your self Will instead > of William. How about all those guys calling them selves > Bob instead of Robert. Bob doesn't even sound like Robert. > Herb has gall calling himself Herb instead of Herbert. > ( humor in case someone takes offence ) > I just wonder what nickname I could use for Dwight. D - RIGHT :) > PS Will > Where in the US is the HP1000? > Dwight ( for lack of a nickname ) > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail? has a new way to see what's up with your friends. > http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/WhatsNew?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_WhatsNew1_052009 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue May 19 21:52:38 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 22:52:38 -0400 Subject: What is this computer (picture) In-Reply-To: References: <20090519141412.GA1137@Update.UU.SE> <7d3530220905191355u52264994s53fada36d3bbc455@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > ?Where in the US is the HP1000? People that do not know where Fair Radio is do not deserve HP minicomputers. Or air. -- Will From bear at typewritten.org Tue May 19 22:22:13 2009 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 20:22:13 -0700 Subject: What is this computer (picture) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <75293851-6446-4F94-981C-BEE9E30D9D4B@typewritten.org> On May 19, 2009, at 9:08 AM, Richard wrote: > A nice little turnkey system based around LSI-11 with graphics. Its a > shame that "Herb" (is that his real name? Why should I take his > collection seriously when he uses a pseudonym!) disassembled his > system for parts. Why would you think that? I've conducted business with Herb, and that's his name. He had a Sun 150 on the site for a little while, that somebody bought about a week before I managed to notice it. Disappointed though I was, I kind of hoped it might've at least gone to someone on the list. ok bear From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue May 19 22:25:49 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 20:25:49 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/40 Unibus termination query... Message-ID: <4A13783D.9050104@mail.msu.edu> Hey all -- I'm one step closer to bringing my 11/40 back to life -- the front panel is now responding and I can examine and deposit memory. But the machine is only responsive without the Unibus terminator (an M9302) installed. If it's installed, the front panel is basically hung -- toggling "Start" causes a brief flurry of activity, but that's the only thing that causes any response. Without the terminator installed, the front panel more or less works, I can examine and deposit memory, load the address register, etc... but I can't get any toggled in code to run, obviously -- it traps to the bus error vector at 00004. (There's also an odd issue, which I doubt is related, but Examining/Depositing does not correctly increment the address -- starting from 0, it's "0, 2, 6, 12, 16, 22, 26..." and if I start at 1 it's "1, 3, 7, 13, 17, 23, 27...") I currently have the CPU boards + MMU option installed in the correct order with a SLU card in the SPC slot, and an M981 connecting to a 4-slot Unibus backplane with a single 64K MOS memory card (M7891) in slot 2 -- all other slots have grant continuity cards installed. The Unibus terminator is installed in the last slot. Any ideas? Thanks as always, Josh From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue May 19 22:35:50 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 21:35:50 -0600 Subject: Open source, stand alone, ASCII terminal project, UPDATE In-Reply-To: <003a01c9d891$5ec005b0$1c401110$@com> References: <003a01c9d891$5ec005b0$1c401110$@com> Message-ID: <4A137A96.8040103@jetnet.ab.ca> Bob Armstrong wrote: > Back in December I posted about an open source, stand alone ASCII terminal > project for old computers - > > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2008-December/265312.html > > The VT6, a simplified single host port version, is available now - PC > boards, partial kits and full kits of all parts. It was actually available > back in March, but the first run of parts sold out just on the Spare Time > Gizmos group and I never got a chance to announce it elsewhere. The second, > much larger, run of parts is now available and hopefully there should be > plenty this time around. > > The VT6 is a small PC board, about 2.5" by 4", that uses a VGA monitor and > a PS/2 keyboard and is able to do pretty much anything a VT220 can. The > firmware is about 95% written in C (with about 5% assembler) and is open > source and GPL licensed. The tool chain used for development, including the > SDCC C compiler, is all free. The microprocessor is flash based and > firmware updates can be downloaded from any PC over an ordinary serial port. I am having trouble unziping the zip file. Windows here does not seem to want to unzip it. I get 'unknown compression' ... nothing gets extracted. PS. about 703KB file size. Ben. > If you need a terminal, it's just the thing to stick in the back of your > classic computer. > > The hardware for the other version of this terminal, known as the VT5 is > also finished and really only needs the firmware to be ready. The VT5 > supports multiple host ports and sessions with split screen displays, > downloadable fonts and (if we can get the firmware written!) ReGIS and/or > Tek 4010 type graphics. > > The firmware is really the limiting factor for everything (isn't that > always the truth??) and we could use help with the programming. There's a > Source Forge project for the firmware here - > > http://vt4.sourceforge.net > > and the Spare Time Gizmos page for the VT6 parts and PCBs is here - > > http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/VT.htm > > There's also a manual (unfinished - we could use help with that too!) - > > http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Downloads/vt.pdf > > Bob Armstrong > > > > > > From frustum at pacbell.net Tue May 19 22:46:22 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 22:46:22 -0500 Subject: What is this computer (picture) In-Reply-To: <75293851-6446-4F94-981C-BEE9E30D9D4B@typewritten.org> References: <75293851-6446-4F94-981C-BEE9E30D9D4B@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <4A137D0E.9000706@pacbell.net> r.stricklin wrote: > > On May 19, 2009, at 9:08 AM, Richard wrote: > >> A nice little turnkey system based around LSI-11 with graphics. Its a >> shame that "Herb" (is that his real name? Why should I take his >> collection seriously when he uses a pseudonym!) disassembled his >> system for parts. > > Why would you think that? I've conducted business with Herb, and that's > his name. He had a Sun 150 on the site for a little while, that somebody > bought about a week before I managed to notice it. Disappointed though I > was, I kind of hoped it might've at least gone to someone on the list. Guys -- Richard wasn't being serious. Not that many days ago someone was expressing the desire that everybody should use their real names on the list, and Richard dissented. He is *not* doubting Herb's authenticity, nor would he care if "Herb" was a pseudonym. From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue May 19 22:57:57 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 20:57:57 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/40 Unibus termination query... In-Reply-To: <4A13783D.9050104@mail.msu.edu> References: <4A13783D.9050104@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: On May 19, 2009, at 8:25 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hey all -- > > I'm one step closer to bringing my 11/40 back to life -- the front > panel is now responding and I can examine and deposit memory. > > But the machine is only responsive without the Unibus terminator (an > M9302) installed. If it's installed, the front panel is basically > hung -- toggling "Start" causes a brief flurry of activity, but > that's the only thing that causes any response. > > Without the terminator installed, the front panel more or less > works, I can examine and deposit memory, load the address register, > etc... but I can't get any toggled in code to run, obviously -- it > traps to the bus error vector at 00004. > (There's also an odd issue, which I doubt is related, but Examining/ > Depositing does not correctly increment the address -- starting from > 0, it's "0, 2, 6, 12, 16, 22, 26..." and if I start at 1 it's "1, 3, > 7, 13, 17, 23, 27...") > > I currently have the CPU boards + MMU option installed in the > correct order with a SLU card in the SPC slot, and an M981 > connecting to a 4-slot Unibus backplane with a single 64K MOS memory > card (M7891) in slot 2 -- all other slots have grant continuity > cards installed. The Unibus terminator is installed in the last slot. > The first thing that I always do on an 11/40 is make absolutely sure that all of the jumpers on all of the CPU boards are set properly. DEC decided it wanted a lot of flexibility in 11/40 offerings. The result is a lot of jumpers spread between all of the CPU boards. If they are not *all* set properly you'll get strange behaviors. If the boards are in an unknown condition, I would configure the CPU to *not* use the MMU until you have the basic CPU running and passing some basic tests before adding in the MMU back in (yea, I know it's a pain because you have to solder/cut jumpers to change the config). Since the entire 11/40 CPU is microcoded (including the operation of the front panel) you might want to use the appropriate KM11s and single step through some of the micro code. This can help pin-point the fault. I also don't recall at this moment the M9302, but many of the terminator boards have jumpers for the different types of pull-ups for some of the processor signals. If the pull-ups are incorrectly configured for the type of processor, the unibus can hang. Remember the unibus needs to be terminated at both ends. However, some signals are only to be terminated at one end (ie some CPUs terminate the signals themselves and others don't so the terminator at the end of the bus needs to be configured properly). TTFN - Guy From vrs at msn.com Tue May 19 23:17:19 2009 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 21:17:19 -0700 Subject: Open source, stand alone, ASCII terminal project, UPDATE References: <003a01c9d891$5ec005b0$1c401110$@com> <4A137A96.8040103@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: From: > I am having trouble unziping the zip file. Windows here does not seem > to want to > unzip it. I get 'unknown compression' ... nothing gets extracted. > PS. about 703KB file size. Ben. Yeah, it looks like he's got the new WinZip, and configured for the newer compression method as default. (I re-zipped my copy in the old compression format, and can send a copy to you, if you like.) Vince From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 19 23:53:58 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 21:53:58 -0700 Subject: BA123 Replacement Casters? Message-ID: Has anyone replaced the casters on one of their BA123 enclosures? If so any advice? My spare chassis has had dead casters for years. I discovered yesterday as we started moving out of storage that my beloved PDP-11/73's chassis has dead casters. :-( I'm not worried about maintaining a "stock" unit, I want functionality. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue May 19 23:55:26 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 21:55:26 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/40 Unibus termination query... In-Reply-To: References: <4A13783D.9050104@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4A138D3E.1010907@mail.msu.edu> Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > On May 19, 2009, at 8:25 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> Hey all -- >> >> I'm one step closer to bringing my 11/40 back to life -- the front >> panel is now responding and I can examine and deposit memory. >> >> But the machine is only responsive without the Unibus terminator (an >> M9302) installed. If it's installed, the front panel is basically >> hung -- toggling "Start" causes a brief flurry of activity, but >> that's the only thing that causes any response. >> >> Without the terminator installed, the front panel more or less works, >> I can examine and deposit memory, load the address register, etc... >> but I can't get any toggled in code to run, obviously -- it traps to >> the bus error vector at 00004. >> (There's also an odd issue, which I doubt is related, but >> Examining/Depositing does not correctly increment the address -- >> starting from 0, it's "0, 2, 6, 12, 16, 22, 26..." and if I start at >> 1 it's "1, 3, 7, 13, 17, 23, 27...") >> >> I currently have the CPU boards + MMU option installed in the correct >> order with a SLU card in the SPC slot, and an M981 connecting to a >> 4-slot Unibus backplane with a single 64K MOS memory card (M7891) in >> slot 2 -- all other slots have grant continuity cards installed. The >> Unibus terminator is installed in the last slot. >> > > The first thing that I always do on an 11/40 is make absolutely sure > that all of the jumpers on all of the CPU boards are set properly. > DEC decided it wanted a lot of flexibility in 11/40 offerings. The > result is a lot of jumpers spread between all of the CPU boards. If > they are not *all* set properly you'll get strange behaviors. > > If the boards are in an unknown condition, I would configure the CPU > to *not* use the MMU until you have the basic CPU running and passing > some basic tests before adding in the MMU back in (yea, I know it's a > pain because you have to solder/cut jumpers to change the config). Hmph; just got done configuring the boards for the MMU :). Is there a good reference for how the jumpers should be configured for just the basic CPU set? I have the engineering drawing sets (in TIFFs... anyone have these in PDF? Tiff is annoying :)), and it indicates the jumpers, and _some_ of them seem to indicate a "default" position, but not all, and I don't know whether these are really defaults or not. I know the MMU and the Stack Limit options require jumper changes, did any other options require them? > > Since the entire 11/40 CPU is microcoded (including the operation of > the front panel) you might want to use the appropriate KM11s and > single step through some of the micro code. This can help pin-point > the fault. Just assembled one of the KM11s last night, now I just need to order a couple of unibus extenders so I can use it :). > > I also don't recall at this moment the M9302, but many of the > terminator boards have jumpers for the different types of pull-ups for > some of the processor signals. If the pull-ups are incorrectly > configured for the type of processor, the unibus can hang. Remember > the unibus needs to be terminated at both ends. However, some signals > are only to be terminated at one end (ie some CPUs terminate the > signals themselves and others don't so the terminator at the end of > the bus needs to be configured properly). The M9302 does not appear to have jumpers, and it doesn't appear to be of the same vintage as the 11/40 (it has a "caution" label that mentions an 11/34 or 11/04...) so maybe it is incorrect for use in an 11/40. > > TTFN - Guy > Thanks, Josh From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 20 00:12:53 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 23:12:53 -0600 Subject: Open source, stand alone, ASCII terminal project, UPDATE In-Reply-To: References: <003a01c9d891$5ec005b0$1c401110$@com> <4A137A96.8040103@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4A139155.8040200@jetnet.ab.ca> Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: >> I am having trouble unziping the zip file. Windows here does not seem >> to want to >> unzip it. I get 'unknown compression' ... nothing gets extracted. >> PS. about 703KB file size. Ben. > > Yeah, it looks like he's got the new WinZip, and configured for the > newer compression method as default. (I re-zipped my copy in the old > compression format, and can send a copy to you, if you like.) I'll be needing a copy, but not right at this instant. All want is the flash loader program and the flash data. I still have to get the terminal in the mail yet. Ben. > Vince PS. Does anybody have pcb footprints for the toggle switches used with the SBC1620?. I have a 18 bit cpu in the works here. From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed May 20 00:13:29 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 22:13:29 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/40 Unibus termination query... In-Reply-To: <4A138D3E.1010907@mail.msu.edu> References: <4A13783D.9050104@mail.msu.edu> <4A138D3E.1010907@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <9E86421F-1932-4660-93FA-8E3831CEE2AE@shiresoft.com> On May 19, 2009, at 9:55 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> >> On May 19, 2009, at 8:25 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> >>> Hey all -- >>> >>> I'm one step closer to bringing my 11/40 back to life -- the front >>> panel is now responding and I can examine and deposit memory. >>> >>> But the machine is only responsive without the Unibus terminator >>> (an M9302) installed. If it's installed, the front panel is >>> basically hung -- toggling "Start" causes a brief flurry of >>> activity, but that's the only thing that causes any response. >>> >>> Without the terminator installed, the front panel more or less >>> works, I can examine and deposit memory, load the address >>> register, etc... but I can't get any toggled in code to run, >>> obviously -- it traps to the bus error vector at 00004. >>> (There's also an odd issue, which I doubt is related, but >>> Examining/Depositing does not correctly increment the address -- >>> starting from 0, it's "0, 2, 6, 12, 16, 22, 26..." and if I start >>> at 1 it's "1, 3, 7, 13, 17, 23, 27...") >>> >>> I currently have the CPU boards + MMU option installed in the >>> correct order with a SLU card in the SPC slot, and an M981 >>> connecting to a 4-slot Unibus backplane with a single 64K MOS >>> memory card (M7891) in slot 2 -- all other slots have grant >>> continuity cards installed. The Unibus terminator is installed in >>> the last slot. >>> >> >> The first thing that I always do on an 11/40 is make absolutely >> sure that all of the jumpers on all of the CPU boards are set >> properly. DEC decided it wanted a lot of flexibility in 11/40 >> offerings. The result is a lot of jumpers spread between all of >> the CPU boards. If they are not *all* set properly you'll get >> strange behaviors. >> >> If the boards are in an unknown condition, I would configure the >> CPU to *not* use the MMU until you have the basic CPU running and >> passing some basic tests before adding in the MMU back in (yea, I >> know it's a pain because you have to solder/cut jumpers to change >> the config). > > Hmph; just got done configuring the boards for the MMU :). Is there > a good reference for how the jumpers should be configured for just > the basic CPU set? I have the engineering drawing sets (in TIFFs... > anyone have these in PDF? Tiff is annoying :)), and it indicates the > jumpers, and _some_ of them seem to indicate a "default" position, > but not all, and I don't know whether these are really defaults or > not. I know the MMU and the Stack Limit options require jumper > changes, did any other options require them? Yes, there are jumpers for EIS & FIS too. Bitsavers has all of the drawings in PDF. I usually go off of the drawings, but I've done it enough that the drawings are the best way to make sure you haven't missed anything. I'd have to go back and lookup the drawings and compare it against some of the board sets I have to make sure at this point though. Memory is the 2nd thing to go with age...I forgot what the first one is. :-) > > >> >> Since the entire 11/40 CPU is microcoded (including the operation >> of the front panel) you might want to use the appropriate KM11s and >> single step through some of the micro code. This can help pin- >> point the fault. > > Just assembled one of the KM11s last night, now I just need to order > a couple of unibus extenders so I can use it :). > >> >> I also don't recall at this moment the M9302, but many of the >> terminator boards have jumpers for the different types of pull-ups >> for some of the processor signals. If the pull-ups are incorrectly >> configured for the type of processor, the unibus can hang. >> Remember the unibus needs to be terminated at both ends. However, >> some signals are only to be terminated at one end (ie some CPUs >> terminate the signals themselves and others don't so the terminator >> at the end of the bus needs to be configured properly). > The M9302 does not appear to have jumpers, and it doesn't appear to > be of the same vintage as the 11/40 (it has a "caution" label that > mentions an 11/34 or 11/04...) so maybe it is incorrect for use in > an 11/40. I typically use M9312s as the terminators (since it has boot ROMs too). It has the appropriate jumpers. I tend to use M9302s only in 11/34s and 11/04s. TTFN - Guy From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 20 00:32:15 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 22:32:15 -0700 Subject: With great sorrow In-Reply-To: <4A11A504.1060604@vaxen.net> References: <4A11A504.1060604@vaxen.net> Message-ID: At 1:17 PM -0500 5/18/09, Doc wrote: > Well, not really. I'm giving up most of my electronics and >computer stuff, but while it's all been great fun, I'm nor all that >sad about it. > As elegant as this stuff can be, I finally get to start riding >again, and I need the space (and cash of course!). Congratulations! The best of luck on your road to recovery! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jws at jwsss.com Tue May 19 11:37:41 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 09:37:41 -0700 Subject: Possible PDP 11/34 on ebay In-Reply-To: <20090519161400.GA7830@Update.UU.SE> References: <242866.84899.qm@web82605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A12D81C.7070007@sbcglobal.net> <20090519161400.GA7830@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4A12E055.3090808@jwsss.com> The 11/34 looks separate, and both listings say HP computer. May be inclusive of only the "5000" box that is shown. They may have photographed down the row and the 11/34 is part of some other system. Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 09:02:36AM -0700, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > >> Here's an auction for a piece of equipment that appears to be controlled >> by a PDP 11/34. Also uses some HP terminals. >> >> They are open to offers so someone might contact them to see if they >> will part out the unit for the computer. >> >> Item number: >> >> 360087718037 >> >> Bob >> > > Cheaper here : > > http://uen.hsix.com/q/webinv/008150=p,,,,a,,,20014869,, > > :) > > The paper punch/reader is nice to. > > /Pontus > > > From doc at vaxen.net Tue May 19 11:39:55 2009 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 11:39:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Update Re: With great sorrow In-Reply-To: <4A11B789.9080309@vaxen.net> References: <4A11B789.9080309@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4A12DD4C.6060809@vaxen.net> First, I promised a couple of folks a response or action last night, but we had a lost kitten incident. As it's my wife's kitten, everything else ground to a screeching halt. (The cat in question showed up this morning healthy, happy, and completely clueless). Anyhow, it put me a day behind. Second, "Wow!" I did not expect the kind of response I'm getting. I've gotten *many* inquiries about the PDP-11s, the VS4000/90 and the Amigas, and I've gotten quite a few queries about the rest. Y'all please be patient. I'm still sorting and collating. If you've asked questions or made offers I'll respond ASAP, but it's going to take a couple of days. The BeBox is sold, pending payment, as is the PDP-11/04. Thank you, gentlemen! The PDP-11/44 without front panel is committed to a collection. Doc Shipley From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Wed May 20 01:39:57 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 23:39:57 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/40 Unibus termination query... In-Reply-To: <9E86421F-1932-4660-93FA-8E3831CEE2AE@shiresoft.com> References: <4A13783D.9050104@mail.msu.edu> <4A138D3E.1010907@mail.msu.edu> <9E86421F-1932-4660-93FA-8E3831CEE2AE@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <4A13A5BD.9030504@mail.msu.edu> Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > On May 19, 2009, at 9:55 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> >> >> Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>> >>> On May 19, 2009, at 8:25 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> >>> The first thing that I always do on an 11/40 is make absolutely sure >>> that all of the jumpers on all of the CPU boards are set properly. >>> DEC decided it wanted a lot of flexibility in 11/40 offerings. The >>> result is a lot of jumpers spread between all of the CPU boards. If >>> they are not *all* set properly you'll get strange behaviors. >>> >>> If the boards are in an unknown condition, I would configure the CPU >>> to *not* use the MMU until you have the basic CPU running and >>> passing some basic tests before adding in the MMU back in (yea, I >>> know it's a pain because you have to solder/cut jumpers to change >>> the config). >> >> Hmph; just got done configuring the boards for the MMU :). Is there >> a good reference for how the jumpers should be configured for just >> the basic CPU set? I have the engineering drawing sets (in TIFFs... >> anyone have these in PDF? Tiff is annoying :)), and it indicates the >> jumpers, and _some_ of them seem to indicate a "default" position, >> but not all, and I don't know whether these are really defaults or >> not. I know the MMU and the Stack Limit options require jumper >> changes, did any other options require them? > > Yes, there are jumpers for EIS & FIS too. > > Bitsavers has all of the drawings in PDF. > > I usually go off of the drawings, but I've done it enough that the > drawings are the best way to make sure you haven't missed anything. > I'd have to go back and lookup the drawings and compare it against > some of the board sets I have to make sure at this point though. > > Memory is the 2nd thing to go with age...I forgot what the first one > is. :-) Hey, alright -- checked out my boards against the drawings again, and the EIS jumper was removed (W1 on M7233) so I reinstalled it. Now examine/deposit increments properly -- 2 at a time, every time :). Now to solve the termination problem and maybe then I can get a program to run... and then... THE WORLD! Anyone have a spare M9312? Thanks again, Josh >> >>> >>> I also don't recall at this moment the M9302, but many of the >>> terminator boards have jumpers for the different types of pull-ups >>> for some of the processor signals. If the pull-ups are incorrectly >>> configured for the type of processor, the unibus can hang. Remember >>> the unibus needs to be terminated at both ends. However, some >>> signals are only to be terminated at one end (ie some CPUs terminate >>> the signals themselves and others don't so the terminator at the end >>> of the bus needs to be configured properly). >> The M9302 does not appear to have jumpers, and it doesn't appear to >> be of the same vintage as the 11/40 (it has a "caution" label that >> mentions an 11/34 or 11/04...) so maybe it is incorrect for use in an >> 11/40. > > I typically use M9312s as the terminators (since it has boot ROMs > too). It has the appropriate jumpers. I tend to use M9302s only in > 11/34s and 11/04s. > > TTFN - Guy > > > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed May 20 01:53:58 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 23:53:58 -0700 Subject: Promotional posters from the Honeywell "animals" ad campaign References: <242866.84899.qm@web82605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A13A906.7B8814F7@cs.ubc.ca> William Maddox wrote: > > An eBay seller is selling what appear to be vintage promotional > posters featuring the animal sculptures made out of computer parts > that Honeywell commissioned for a long-running ad campaign. > There are 17 different ones, with multiple copies (but not many) of > each. > > http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/psobosik?_nkw=computer+poster I remember being rather fascinated with those when I was about 9 years old. At the same time I had the contrary sentiment that it was a terrible waste of components (a pointless sentiment, the components were probably rejects and floor sweepings). I could swear there was a yellow rabbit in the series, but I don't see it in the offerings there. From tiggerlasv at aim.com Wed May 20 04:24:18 2009 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 05:24:18 -0400 Subject: Open source, stand alone, ASCII terminal project, UPDATE Message-ID: <8CBA743E2B04066-1078-972@webmail-md01.sysops.aol.com> I see from the SpareTimeGizmos website that they are contemplating adding an ethernet port, with telnet capabilities. . . It seems to me that if you're going to the trouble of emulating a VT220, a DEC terminal, then you should at least add support for LAT. ;-) T From bqt at softjar.se Wed May 20 02:21:34 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 09:21:34 +0200 Subject: RS-232 (was: Re: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A13AF7E.4000301@softjar.se> Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 19, 2009, at 3:21 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>>> In general, when talking about DEC equipment, the answer to that >>>> question is *always* no, for the simple fact that DEC didn't do >>>> hardware flow control. Hardware flow control is actually against >>>> the RS-232 spec, and DEC didn't abuse standards (unlike most >>>> other companies). >>> This reminds me of a comment I made about the HP82164 (HPIL to >>> RS232 interface). That thing follows the RS232 standard to the >>> letter (for example, it correctly handles the cotnrol lines in >>> half duplex mode). It's just a pity that nobody else does :-). >>> Getting it to work with some RS232 devices is 'interesting'.. >> Yeah. HP was actually the other company that actually seemed to >> read the standard. I don't know of anyone else than DEC and HP that >> even tried to actually follow the specs. >> One could only wish companies had. Everything would have been soo >> much easier in that case. Now almost everyone is confused when it >> comes to serial communication, and it's not because it actually is >> difficult, but people have just become so confused because they >> think it works one way just because the equipment they have do it >> that way, and when coming to any other equipment, nothing works the >> same way they are used to. > > Well, you've got to admit that things would've been a whole lot > easier if it weren't for the whole DTE/DCE fiasco. While I must admit that I don't understand the point of having a separate DTE and DCE, if companies had just followed the specs, it wouldn't have been a problem anyway. All DTEs male, and all DCEs female. Female to female cable, always crossed (same with male to male, not that I'd expect many to hook a DCS to a DCS, but anyway), and male to female cables always straight. How easy it would have been. And modem signaling are just signalling between a DTE and DCE, for various situations. But they could have defined just everything as DTEs, and made modems and similar stuff really invisible, like cable extensions instead. Maybe that would have made it easier for companies to get it right. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From axelsson at acc.umu.se Wed May 20 03:12:51 2009 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?=) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 10:12:51 +0200 Subject: What is this computer (picture) In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20090519193655.03a423e0@mail.threedee.com> References: <20090519141412.GA1137@Update.UU.SE> <6.2.3.4.2.20090519193655.03a423e0@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <4A13BB83.7040301@acc.umu.se> John Foust wrote: > At 09:14 AM 5/19/2009, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > >> Not sure if it has a bell, but a quick google tells me it is a Princeton >> Gamma Tech System 4: >> >> http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/dec.html >> > > I've got one of those attached to my SEM. > > - John > For those not at home in the electron microscope business, it is the measurement computer for an EDS system, Energy Dispersive Spectroscopy, that measures the energy in single x-rays emitted from a test sample in a Scanning Electron Microscope or a Transmision Electron Microscope. With it and the detector system you could see which elements that makes up a sample. I've got a PGT 1000 with an Alpha LSI in the base. The same form factor but the computer takes up the full base. My system is equipped with a 16 kword 16 bit core memory. It started when I turned the power on for the first time showing the graph from the last measurement, I just love core memory. Sadly the computer crashed when I pressed "CLEAR". I suspect that I have an EPROM problem but haven't had time to do anything more with it. There are manuals on bitsavers at http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/computerAutomation/ and a collector in Sweden http://www.sdu.se/computer-automation-museum/ Anyone got a spare front panel for Alpha LSI or schematics of it? /G?ran From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed May 20 05:50:50 2009 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 12:50:50 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Looking for MS11-M tech manual Message-ID: <27041.212.67.167.228.1242816650.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hi John, I looked in our company technical archive, and for this memory card it does seem to look like there has not been a technical manual. We have them for the other MS11 ones, but not for this one. Regards, Ed > Does anyone have a copy of the (DEC) MS11-M tech manual, EK-MS11M-TM? > > Manx has pointers for the user guide and print set, but not the tech > manual. I need more information than is present in those two > documents. > > I'd be happy to scan the manual, if someone has it and can't scan. > Or a scan would be great. > > Thanks, > > John > -- Certified : VCP 3.x, SCSI 3.x SCSA S10, SCNA S10 From paul at frixxon.co.uk Wed May 20 06:10:08 2009 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (paul at frixxon.co.uk) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 12:10:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Looking for MS11-M tech manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3bc8f246a0aaea4dbb844749cd5d475a.squirrel@frixxon.co.uk.mail.aaisp.net.uk> > Does anyone have a copy of the (DEC) MS11-M tech manual, EK-MS11M-TM? This section of fiche: http://bitsavers.vt100.net/pdf/dec/pdp11/xxdp/fiche_200dpi/0252_Index_81-06.pdf suggests (on page 26 of 171) that the manual was available on fiche, as EP-MS11M-TM-001, dated May 1980, but I can't see it quickly in those available on Bitsavers. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed May 20 07:01:03 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 13:01:03 +0100 Subject: Nostalgic technologies article In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1242820863.4200.76.camel@elric> On Tue, 2009-05-19 at 20:49 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > Hayes modems > > Just about all modems are Hayes compatible (and I think you can still buy > dial-up modems...) AT commands are alive and well and in your mobile phone - how else do you talk to the radio stack? > > Sony Minidiscs > > Hmmm.. I spotted a 'Minidisk Walkman' (portable playback-only minidisk > player) along with a 'Network Walkman' (looks to be an MP3 player, it's > got a Toshiba PCMCIA hard disk inside) for \pounds 1.00 each in a charity > shop last week. Yes I bought them (I don;t know why, my idea of a > portable sound reproduction device is a Philips EL3586, but anyway..) Why? Because it would be rude not to, at that price. > > Z80 CPU's > > I have lost cound of how many Z80s I am using... Four in one of my cars, two of which controlled the heating system. No, I don't know why the heating required more CPU horsepower than the ABS controller. Gordon From spectre at floodgap.com Wed May 20 07:18:31 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 05:18:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Nostalgic technologies article In-Reply-To: <1242820863.4200.76.camel@elric> from Gordon JC Pearce at "May 20, 9 01:01:03 pm" Message-ID: <200905201218.n4KCIVsB010528@floodgap.com> > > > Hayes modems > > > > Just about all modems are Hayes compatible (and I think you can still buy > > dial-up modems...) > > AT commands are alive and well and in your mobile phone - how else do > you talk to the radio stack? You're not pulling my leg, are you? That's actually pretty cool. Is it the same kind of command set, ATDT and all? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- In memory of Commodore Business Machines (1954-1994) ----------------------- From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed May 20 07:37:10 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 13:37:10 +0100 Subject: Nostalgic technologies article In-Reply-To: <200905201218.n4KCIVsB010528@floodgap.com> References: <200905201218.n4KCIVsB010528@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <1242823031.4200.81.camel@elric> On Wed, 2009-05-20 at 05:18 -0700, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > Hayes modems > > > > > > Just about all modems are Hayes compatible (and I think you can still buy > > > dial-up modems...) > > > > AT commands are alive and well and in your mobile phone - how else do > > you talk to the radio stack? > > You're not pulling my leg, are you? That's actually pretty cool. Is it > the same kind of command set, ATDT and all? > Nope, not pulling your leg. ATDT doesn't seem to do anything useful, although it may be trying to place an ISDN call. Have a look at the crappy code in http://www.gjcp.net/~gordonjcp/radiomap.tar.bz2 You'll see that I sent AT+CSQ to query the phone's RSSI, and AT+CREG? to determine LAC and CellID. There's a huge list of possible commands, including things like manipulating the SIM card, sending text messages, placing calls, answering calls, reading CLID, *all* kinds. Gordon From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 20 07:39:59 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 07:39:59 -0500 Subject: Nostalgic technologies article In-Reply-To: <200905201218.n4KCIVsB010528@floodgap.com> References: <1242820863.4200.76.camel@elric> <200905201218.n4KCIVsB010528@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090520073809.03f44b20@mail.threedee.com> At 07:18 AM 5/20/2009, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >You're not pulling my leg, are you? That's actually pretty cool. Is it >the same kind of command set, ATDT and all? I was helping a client with a contemporary cellular modem recently and it had serial-port emulation and AT command set compatibility, too. - John From spectre at floodgap.com Wed May 20 07:55:26 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 05:55:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Nostalgic technologies article In-Reply-To: <1242823031.4200.81.camel@elric> from Gordon JC Pearce at "May 20, 9 01:37:10 pm" Message-ID: <200905201255.n4KCtQYn017344@floodgap.com> > Have a look at the crappy code in > http://www.gjcp.net/~gordonjcp/radiomap.tar.bz2 > > You'll see that I sent AT+CSQ to query the phone's RSSI, and AT+CREG? to > determine LAC and CellID. > > There's a huge list of possible commands, including things like > manipulating the SIM card, sending text messages, placing calls, > answering calls, reading CLID, *all* kinds. Fascinating. Well, I'm actually reassured. If I run across a modem in the future, odds are I'll still know how to basically talk to it. :) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Not sun-worshippers: Son-worshippers! -- Uhura, Star Trek "Bread & Circuses" From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 20 08:29:48 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 09:29:48 -0400 Subject: Nostalgic technologies article In-Reply-To: <200905201255.n4KCtQYn017344@floodgap.com> References: <1242823031.4200.81.camel@elric> <200905201255.n4KCtQYn017344@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 8:55 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Fascinating. Well, I'm actually reassured. If I run across a modem in > the future, odds are I'll still know how to basically talk to it. :) Yeah... just whistle. If it "talks" back, you did it right. ;-) -ethan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed May 20 08:52:55 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 06:52:55 -0700 Subject: S-100 power supply transformer In-Reply-To: <002601c9d8c9$8d933230$0201a8c0@hal9000> References: <000701c9d84c$32823d00$0201a8c0@hal9000> <002601c9d8c9$8d933230$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: Hi Wow, it just goes to show that you can't believe everything you read. What a bunch of bull. While I'm sure most of the book is quite useful, this part if flat wrong. Ever wonder why every high power switcher I've ever seen used a center taped transformer? I guess those engineers never read this book. Lets take things one at a time. First, it is correct that the voltage is half but that is just a matter of doubling the turns on each winding. Now the next part. Each winding carries current for only half the time( so far ok ). Now for the point of deviation. Why would the current be double? It takes two pulses of current during each cycle to charge the capacitor. Does it make any difference were that current came from? Even a more important question is where did double the current go? Seems like there is a rule for current that says what goes in must come out ( Nortons rule as I recall ). For the bridge circuit, there are two pulse of current per cycle. Each one of these pulse is split into the two halves of the center tapped. Each pulse is exactly the same current except one is on each leg of the center tapped transformer ( again Norton rule demands it ). This means that each half of the winding has half the power of the single winding ( assuming that the windings are the same resistance ). The number he states as 1.4 is completely bogus. Please do think it through. To have the same loss in the secondary, the winding have to be exactly 2 times as much wire but being the low voltage windings in our case, they are just not that much bigger on the transformer. All I can say is WOW, what a blupper!!! Dwight ---------------------------------------- > From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: S-100 power supply transformer > Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 14:34:12 -0700 > > > > I respectfully disagree. ? In a center-tapped full-wave rectifier circuit > the output voltage is half what you get if you use a bridge rectifier. It is > not the most efficient circuit in terms of transformer design, because each > half of the secondary is used only half the time. Thus the current through > the winding during that time is twice what it would be for a true full-wave > circuit. Heating in the windings, using Ohm?s law, is I^2R, so you have four > times the heating half the time, or twice the average heating of an > equivalent full-wave bridge rectifier circuit. You would have to choose a > transformer with a current rating 1.4 times as large as compared with the > ( better ) bridge circuit; besides costing more, the resulting supply would > be bulkier and heavier ?. from the good book ? ? The art of Electronics ? > > > > The disadvantage of a bridge is two diode voltage drops. Diodes are a lot > cheaper than transformers though. > > > > Best regards, Steven > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Hi > This is the result of when the current actually flows. > It only flows when the voltage is near the peak. This > changes the average power dissipated in the secondary winding > ( the VA rating ). > Altough, the 1.414 is the worst value and the real value > is somewhere between 1 and 1.414. > It make no difference what type of rectification is used, > fullwave bridge or center tap. Watts are watts and there is > no way around it. It is true that the load current rating > is halved for the secondary turns for the center tapped > fullwave rectification but the VA rating of the transformer > remains the same. > I'm not sure what the book you reference says. I do > know how power is calculated and it is always the vectored > volts times amps. The current flows out of the transformer > when the output voltage is close to the peak. This means > that the rms current of the secondary needs to be compensated > to account for when the current actually flows. > If your transformer has a secondary rated at 10 amps that > can only feed a rectifier and capacitor filter of 7.07 amps. > That would change if feeding a inductive filter because of > when the current flows. > If it was a center tapped with two diodes, it would be > 14.14 amps instead of 20 amps. Still, the VA rating of the > transformer does change. > Dwight > > > ---------------------------------------- >> From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net >> To: cctech at classiccmp.org; cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: S-100 power supply transformer >> Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 23:36:52 -0700 >> >> Dwight, >> >> I think a little explanation is in order, otherwise your info borders on >> incorrect. You need to increase the CURRENT rating of the transformer by >> 1.4, but this only applies to a full wave rectifier topology and not a > full >> wave BRIDGE topology. >> >> reference: The holy book " The art of electronics " page 47 >> >> Best regards, Steven >> >> >>> ---------------------------------------- >>>> From: lynchaj at yahoo.com >>>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >>>> Subject: S-100 power supply transformer >>>> Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 16:51:44 -0400 >>>> >>>> Hi! Does anyone know of an available transformer suitable for making an >>>> S-100 power supply? I need 120VAC input and 10VAC output and +/- 18VAC >>>> outputs. >>>> >>>> The best I solution I can find is two separate 80VA transformers; one >>>> parallel 10VAC output and another 36VCT output which can be configured >> for >>>> +/-18VAC outputs. >>>> >>> ---snip--- >>> >>> Hi >>> What you want is an 8 volt and a 13.5 volt AC. You forget >>> that the DC voltage is created from the peaks not the RMS >>> average. You have to account for diode drop as well. >>> That is how I got the numbers. I assumed full wave rectification >>> and .6v per diode. >>> Dwight >>> >> >> Hi >> I forgot to mention. You need to derate the transformer >> as well. The problem is that the current flows when the >> voltage is the highest ( or close to it ). The math is a little >> complicated but it means you need to increase the rating of >> the transformer by at least 1.414. >> If you can't find a transformer with the right windings, >> I recommend looking at toroidal transformers. These can >> easily have turns added to increase or buck the voltage >> of the secondary. >> Dwight > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail? has a new way to see what's up with your friends. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/WhatsNew?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_WhatsNew1_052009 From spectre at floodgap.com Wed May 20 09:35:05 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 07:35:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Nostalgic technologies article In-Reply-To: from Ethan Dicks at "May 20, 9 09:29:48 am" Message-ID: <200905201435.n4KEZ585017860@floodgap.com> > > Fascinating. Well, I'm actually reassured. If I run across a modem in > > the future, odds are I'll still know how to basically talk to it. :) > > Yeah... just whistle. If it "talks" back, you did it right. ;-) You owe me a new keyboard. :-P -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Long live the Commodore 64 -- eight bits are enough! ----------------------- From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 20 10:12:52 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 11:12:52 -0400 Subject: Does anyone have any info about 1970s-era National Semiconductor LED modules? Message-ID: Hi, All, The Google has failed to illuminate me. I have a handful of what look like 1970s 8-digit calculator modules with National Semiconductor logos and 1975/1976 manufacturing dates. Both types of modules have the 8-bubble plastic digit magnifiers common for LED calculators of the era, but one has 6 digits-worth of diodes behind the plastic, and the other 8 digits. Both have the same external profile and number of off-board solder pads, but different numbers of pads going to places under the epoxy blob that protects the IC. One of the modules just has "650" in copper at the edge of the board, the other has M830 stamped in the same sort of ink/paint that has the NS logo and the mfg date. I know National Semi made lots of LED modules back in the day. I have a few simple digits and was able to find docs on them without much of a search. These are a puzzle. The ones with 8 digits installed are very possibly calculator modules. I've never seen this sort of display with only 6 digits out of 8 populated. I have no idea what they are, but one tangental Google hit suggests they could be DVM modules, but I supposed they could be clock modules or counter modules. If anyone would have a mid-1970s or perhaps early 1980s National Semiconductor databook that covers LED displays, that might have some info. I do not (I only have NS memory/logic books). Thanks for any hints or tips, -ethan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed May 20 10:40:49 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 11:40:49 -0400 Subject: Does anyone have any info about 1970s-era National Semiconductor LED modules? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > If anyone would have a mid-1970s or perhaps early 1980s National > Semiconductor databook that covers LED displays, that might have some > info. ?I do not (I only have NS memory/logic books). Cripes - of the eight shelf-feet of pre-1980 National databooks here, none cover the opto line. I do know, however, that the modules (and there were many, many variants) have numbers that start with NSN, like NSN70 or NSN200. Back in the mid 1980s, they dumped scads of the things on the surplus market (think "Poly Packs"). National Semiconductor actually made calculators back in the 1970s - I used to have one maybe 20 years ago, but it is long gone. They also made a line of plug compatible S/370 mainframes, as well. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 20 10:51:14 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 08:51:14 -0700 Subject: Does anyone have any info about 1970s-era National Semiconductor LED modules? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4A13C482.19090.A4DCF0D@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 May 2009 at 11:40, William Donzelli wrote: > National Semiconductor actually made calculators back in the 1970s - I > used to have one maybe 20 years ago, but it is long gone. They also > made a line of plug compatible S/370 mainframes, as well. As well as watches and video games. I still have an NSC watch (nonfunctioning) and I recall giving a Pong game to my brother's family as a gift back then. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 20 10:52:35 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 11:52:35 -0400 Subject: Does anyone have any info about 1970s-era National Semiconductor LED modules? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 11:40 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> If anyone would have a mid-1970s or perhaps early 1980s National >> Semiconductor databook that covers LED displays, that might have some >> info. ?I do not (I only have NS memory/logic books). > > Cripes - of the eight shelf-feet of pre-1980 National databooks here, > none cover the opto line. My situation exactly. I have lots of pre-1980 National databooks, too. No opto. :-( > I do know, however, that the modules (and > there were many, many variants) have numbers that start with NSN, like > NSN70 or NSN200. Back in the mid 1980s, they dumped scads of the > things on the surplus market (think "Poly Packs"). These came in a box of ancient Radio Shack parts and such (like a 1-in-10), so that's consistent. > National Semiconductor actually made calculators back in the 1970s... It wouldn't surprise me that these are from one of those. -ethan From dundas at caltech.edu Wed May 20 10:53:36 2009 From: dundas at caltech.edu (dundas at caltech.edu) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 08:53:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for MS11-M tech manual In-Reply-To: <27041.212.67.167.228.1242816650.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <27041.212.67.167.228.1242816650.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <49508.75.16.41.133.1242834816.squirrel@webmail.caltech.edu> > Hi John, > > I looked in our company technical archive, and for this memory card it > does seem to look like there has not been a technical manual. > We have them for the other MS11 ones, but not for this one. > > Regards, > > Ed Ed, Thank you for looking. John From dundas at caltech.edu Wed May 20 10:54:55 2009 From: dundas at caltech.edu (dundas at caltech.edu) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 08:54:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for MS11-M tech manual In-Reply-To: <3bc8f246a0aaea4dbb844749cd5d475a.squirrel@frixxon.co.uk.mail.aaisp.ne t.uk> References: <3bc8f246a0aaea4dbb844749cd5d475a.squirrel@frixxon.co.uk.mail.aaisp.net.uk> Message-ID: <49512.75.16.41.133.1242834895.squirrel@webmail.caltech.edu> > > >> Does anyone have a copy of the (DEC) MS11-M tech manual, EK-MS11M-TM? > > This section of fiche: > > http://bitsavers.vt100.net/pdf/dec/pdp11/xxdp/fiche_200dpi/0252_Index_81-06.pdf > > suggests (on page 26 of 171) that the manual was available on fiche, as > EP-MS11M-TM-001, dated May 1980, but I can't see it quickly in those > available on Bitsavers. Ah, that's a good idea, though. I'll check my fiche tank. John From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed May 20 12:49:48 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 18:49:48 +0100 Subject: S-100 power supply transformer In-Reply-To: <002601c9d8c9$8d933230$0201a8c0@hal9000> References: <000701c9d84c$32823d00$0201a8c0@hal9000> <002601c9d8c9$8d933230$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <4A1442BC.3070609@dunnington.plus.com> On 19/05/2009 22:34, Scanning wrote: > > I respectfully disagree. ? In a center-tapped full-wave rectifier circuit > the output voltage is half what you get if you use a bridge rectifier. It is > not the most efficient circuit in terms of transformer design, because each > half of the secondary is used only half the time. Well I agree so far, and I find the same text on page 47 of my copy. But... > Thus the current through > the winding during that time is twice what it would be for a true full-wave > circuit. Why? One each half-cycle, the transformer is delivering the required current to the rectifier circuit. One one half-cycle, that's coming from only one half of the winding, but it's still the same current. On the other half-cycle, that half of the winding is producing no current, but the other half is. That's the same current, just in the other half of the winding. The argument seems to only make sense for a half-wave rectifier circuit. Unless they mean that, because you only get half the voltage from a CT full-wave rectifier circuit compared to the voltage from a bridge connected to the ends of the same transformer secondary, you need twice the current to get the same power output. But that's not how it works, nor how CT circuits are designed. If that's what's meant, it's comparing apples with oranges. You don't compare a 9-0-9 volt transformer which gives 9VDC using a CT full-wave circuit to an 18V transformer driving a bridge rectifier; you compare it to a 9V transformer driving a bridge. > Heating in the windings, using Ohm?s law, is I^2R, so you have four > times the heating half the time, or twice the average heating of an > equivalent full-wave bridge rectifier circuit. Assuming what I wrote above, I disagree. It's the same current so the same I^2R, so the same heating, but for half the time in each part of the winding. Half times two equals one. Hence the following conclusion is incorrect. > You would have to choose a > transformer with a current rating 1.4 times as large as compared with the > ( better ) bridge circuit; besides costing more, the resulting supply would > be bulkier and heavier ?. from the good book ? ? The art of Electronics ? The transformer does end up bulkier, but only because each half of the winding has to satisfy the voltage requirement (as opposed to a whole winding supplying that voltage). In fact given that circumstance, you only need 0.7 times the current rating. > The disadvantage of a bridge is two diode voltage drops. Diodes are a lot > cheaper than transformers though. Can't argue with that :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 20 12:54:28 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 10:54:28 -0700 Subject: IMSAI 8080 for sale.... In-Reply-To: <200905191835.n4JIZpd1094246@keith.ezwind.net> References: <4A127C1D.12868.54ADD17@cclist.sydex.com>, <200905191835.n4JIZpd1094246@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4A13E164.13778.ABEA2D7@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 May 2009 at 14:35, Bob Bradlee wrote: > They were called SD Sales at the time they produced the first Z80 kit. > They were real prowd of makeing the first S100 Z80 Card that work and > ran a few adds anounceing it, in Byte & DrDobs that would have been in > late 77 early 78. Oh, I know who they are/were--I bought my board as a kit from them (from a Byte ad, I seem to recall). Just hadn't realized that they were supposed to be the first S100 Z80 card. I'm not sure about that aspect though--when did the TDL ZPU card come along? --Chuck From hoelscher-kirchbrak at freenet.de Wed May 20 13:03:09 2009 From: hoelscher-kirchbrak at freenet.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6lscher?=) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 20:03:09 +0200 Subject: VMS V3.x (and earlier) DECnet License Keys Message-ID: WANTED FOR HISTORIC VMS NETWORKING: VMS V3.x (and earlier) DECnet License Keys: - DECnet-VAX V1.x DECnet License - DECnet-VAX V2.x DECnet License - DECnet-VAX V3.0 (VMS V3.0 - V3.3) DECnet License - DECnet-VAX V3.1 (VMS V3.4 - V3.7) DECnet Full Function License (aka NETRTG031) - DECnet-VAX V3.1 (VMS V3.4 - V3.7) DECnet End Node License (aka NETEND031) OR File "NETACP.EXE" from a networked VMS V1.x/V2.x/V3.x System. (Included in every Backup of a networked System) Please help!!! Regards, Ulli From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed May 20 13:04:14 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 15:04:14 -0300 Subject: One Div Zero: A Brief, Incomplete, and Mostly Wrong History of Programming Languages References: <4A12CA59.6090405@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <022501c9d975$8078a100$71ce19bb@desktaba> > --- Dave Woyciesjes > --- ICQ# 905818 Wow, that is an oldie! Mine is 2231589 and I have it for decades! ;oD From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed May 20 13:09:06 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 15:09:06 -0300 Subject: Open source, stand alone, ASCII terminal project, UPDATE References: <8CBA743E2B04066-1078-972@webmail-md01.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <02ce01c9d977$43367db0$71ce19bb@desktaba> > I see from the SpareTimeGizmos website > that they are contemplating adding an ethernet port, > with telnet capabilities. . . > It seems to me that if you're going to the trouble of > emulating a VT220, a DEC terminal, then you should > at least add support for LAT. ;-) And soon, you'll have a full fledged X-Terminal :o) From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Wed May 20 13:27:35 2009 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 14:27:35 -0400 Subject: One Div Zero: A Brief, Incomplete, and Mostly Wrong History of Programming Languages In-Reply-To: <022501c9d975$8078a100$71ce19bb@desktaba> References: <4A12CA59.6090405@sbcglobal.net> <022501c9d975$8078a100$71ce19bb@desktaba> Message-ID: <4A144B97.8070302@sbcglobal.net> Alexandre Souza wrote: >> --- Dave Woyciesjes >> --- ICQ# 905818 > > Wow, that is an oldie! Mine is 2231589 and I have it for decades! ;oD > > Yep. Had it for, oh, 12 years now... Makes it on topic, now doesn't it? ;-) Oh, and if you want to contact me that way, it's fine, just give me an email heads up. I get at least 3 attempts a day from lord knows who requesting me to authorize them as a buddy.... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From lynchaj at yahoo.com Wed May 20 14:26:25 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 15:26:25 -0400 Subject: S-100 prototyping board project Message-ID: <1D6F98D70787449CB11CCE6FB05B6702@andrewdesktop> > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew Lynch [mailto:lynchaj at yahoo.com] > Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 11:10 PM > To: 'cctalk at classiccmp.org' > Subject: S-100 prototyping board project > > Hi! As a compliment to the N8VEM S-100 backplane project, I am designing > an S-100 card edge connector in KiCAD. As a demonstration I am including > it in an S-100 prototyping board. > [snip] > > http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=S100 > > Thanks and have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch [AJL>] Hi Just a quick update on the N8VEM S-100 project all of the N8VEM S-100 backplanes prototype PCBs are either shipped or committed. Test results are trickling in and so far are fairly positive. Also, I made a small order of N8VEM S-100 prototyping boards. Those should arrive in about three weeks. Thanks to all who've helped out so far. I much appreciate your help and hopefully this will make available some useful PCBs to the S-100 home brew/vintage/classic computer community. Once I am confident the boards are shown working or at least the faults identified I will post the complete set of information on the N8VEM wiki so that people can design their own using the KiCAD EDA. The key pieces of information are the S-100 male and female card edge connector parts library and the empty board template. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 20 13:47:51 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 19:47:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re-installing a TouchTone keypad in an ASR-33 In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at May 19, 9 05:41:30 pm Message-ID: > > On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 3:56 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > Doea anyone know where I could obtain one of these 1-transistor keypads? > > I bought a few US 'phones in a second-hand shop over here [1]. > > Given that the switch to IC-based tone generators looks to be around > 1982, before the breakup of Ma Bell, I'd say that there are few phones > in thrift stores here of that vintage any more. Maybe at an estate > sale from someone who hasn't moved in 25 years. Were rotary dial 'phones still being made after the breakup? Of the 4 US phones I found in the junk shop [1], 3 of the were rotary dial types (as I said, including this multi-line model 564 or something) [1] It called itself an antique shop, but many of the items on sale were well under 100 years old. On the other hand the prices for interesting old cameras, US 'phones, etc were quite reaosnable... > > If you have access to lift the faceplate, look for a part number > starting in '35' and a manufacturing date prior to 1982. You don't > want a part number starting with '72'.* You are joking, right? I am not going to be able to dismantle a 'phone before buying it. In fact finding US phones over here is non-trivial. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 20 13:51:13 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 19:51:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP1000 available In-Reply-To: <025101c9d8e4$ac364270$c900a8c0@JWEST> from "Jay West" at May 19, 9 07:48:20 pm Message-ID: > Last thing I need is more HP1K's... but I'm always looking out for a few This is one series of HP computer that I've never been inside. So if anyone knows of any available in southern England, I might be interested... Particularly if they're relatively small... Now, from what I've read, the HP1000L (I think that's the small one, isn't it) used an HP custom CPU chip. But I have what appears to be a CPU board from such a machine built from 4 2901s, a 2910, and microcode PROMs. What do I have? What machine should I be looking for to find a complete system using that sort of CPU board? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 20 13:25:02 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 19:25:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: What is this computer In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at May 19, 9 10:04:02 am Message-ID: > Also, I *think* the VT05 has a bell in it and not a buzzer. FWIW the Teletype 43 has a real bell, operated by a solenoid. The VT50 series have a little relay which is pulsed to give the keyclick and fed with a squarewaveto make the 'bell' sound (it sounds like what we call a 'raspberry'). Did any micros haev a bell rather than a speaker? Any other unusual noise-makers for the ^G signal (The HP9830 has a normal speaker + oscillator triggered by an output line from the CPU. But HP added a little circuit to add an ampltude envelope to the sound to make it sound a littler nicer. Typical of the quality of HP of that time!) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 20 14:09:03 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 20:09:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: With great sorrow In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at May 19, 9 10:32:15 pm Message-ID: > > Well, not really. I'm giving up most of my electronics and > >computer stuff, but while it's all been great fun, I'm nor all that > >sad about it. > > As elegant as this stuff can be, I finally get to start riding > >again, and I need the space (and cash of course!). > > Congratulations! The best of luck on your road to recovery! Are you seriously suggesting it would be a Good Thing if we all gave up playing with our (classic computer) toys? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 20 14:05:28 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 20:05:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP 11/40 Unibus termination query... In-Reply-To: <4A13783D.9050104@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at May 19, 9 08:25:49 pm Message-ID: > > Hey all -- > > I'm one step closer to bringing my 11/40 back to life -- the front panel > is now responding and I can examine and deposit memory. > > But the machine is only responsive without the Unibus terminator (an > M9302) installed. If it's installed, the front panel is basically hung > -- toggling "Start" causes a brief flurry of activity, but that's the > only thing that causes any response. > > Without the terminator installed, the front panel more or less works, I > can examine and deposit memory, load the address register, etc... but I > can't get any toggled in code to run, obviously -- it traps to the bus > error vector at 00004. I don't see why that is 'obviosu' A short Unibus will normally work with a termination at one end only. > > (There's also an odd issue, which I doubt is related, but > Examining/Depositing does not correctly increment the address -- > starting from 0, it's "0, 2, 6, 12, 16, 22, 26..." and if I start at 1 > it's "1, 3, 7, 13, 17, 23, 27...") I think you should look at that too. It is clearly storing the '4's bit correctly, since it does take account of it in future increments. THis looks like a bus buffer problem, but you want to find out. > > I currently have the CPU boards + MMU option installed in the correct > order with a SLU card in the SPC slot, and an M981 connecting to a > 4-slot Unibus backplane with a single 64K MOS memory card (M7891) in > slot 2 -- all other slots have grant continuity cards installed. The > Unibus terminator is installed in the last slot. > > Any ideas? Normally when a system hanges if you had an M9302 terminator, it's a grant problem (as I've mentioned before, if a grant actually gets to the M9302, that card assets SACK, causing the CPU (or more precisely the arbiter) to deassert the grant line. If the 'grant' is due to a signal floating because of an open grant chain, the CPU can't deassrt the grant line _at the terminator_, and the system hangs with SACK asserted). Anyway, you mention you've got grant continuity cards in all the empty slots. I assume the're in the right connector (D), and the right way round :-). In which case, check the NPG jumpers on your backplane (wirewrapped links from pin CA1 to CB1). What I normally do is use a logic probe to see just which grant is getting to the terminator. Then make sure it's not being asserted by the CPU (there could be a fault in the CPU, a dead buffer or something), and then check it along tbe backplane to find out whrre it's starting from. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 20 14:19:44 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 20:19:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Nostalgic technologies article In-Reply-To: <1242820863.4200.76.camel@elric> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at May 20, 9 01:01:03 pm Message-ID: > > On Tue, 2009-05-19 at 20:49 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Hayes modems > > > > Just about all modems are Hayes compatible (and I think you can still buy > > dial-up modems...) > > AT commands are alive and well and in your mobile phone - how else do > you talk to the radio stack? Indeed :-). And I seem to rememebr all sorts of other wireless communication devices use versions of the AT command set. > > > > Sony Minidiscs > > > > Hmmm.. I spotted a 'Minidisk Walkman' (portable playback-only minidisk > > player) along with a 'Network Walkman' (looks to be an MP3 player, it's > > got a Toshiba PCMCIA hard disk inside) for \pounds 1.00 each in a charity > > shop last week. Yes I bought them (I don;t know why, my idea of a > > portable sound reproduction device is a Philips EL3586, but anyway..) > > Why? Because it would be rude not to, at that price. OK :-). I am not sure what I am going to use them for (the minidisk unit is playback only, I don't have anythign that could record such a disk, the hard-disk unit has a multi-pin connector on the bottom, I have no idea what the connections are), and I have no idea if they work. But tat thet price they're worth it for case parts, etc (they are in good physical condition). Incidnetally, for those who don't know what a Philips EL3586 is, it's a forerunner of the compact cassette recorder. The compact cassette origianlly used 2 track mono recording (heads record on half the width of the tame, flip the tape over to use the other half) at 1+7/8 ips. The EL3586 (and the older, and similar EL3585) is about the size of a large transistor radio and is a battery-operated reel-to-reel recorder (3" spools with the lid on, 4" with it off IIRC), using the same 'logical format'. I must compare the circuitry with that in the early cassette recorders sometime (yes, I have one and the service manual). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 20 14:24:31 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 20:24:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Does anyone have any info about 1970s-era National Semiconductor In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at May 20, 9 11:40:49 am Message-ID: > National Semiconductor actually made calculators back in the 1970s - I Weren't 'Novus' related to National Semiconductor? The Novus line of calculators is farily well-known (if only because there was at least one RPN model). I also rememebr reading about their calculator chips in one of their databooks (I don't have the right databook, I think it was shown in an application schematic for a display driver chip). > used to have one maybe 20 years ago, but it is long gone. They also > made a line of plug compatible S/370 mainframes, as well. And add-on memory for PDP11s, etc -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 20 14:56:07 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 15:56:07 -0400 Subject: Re-installing a TouchTone keypad in an ASR-33 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 2:47 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Given that the switch to IC-based tone generators looks to be around >> 1982, before the breakup of Ma Bell, I'd say that there are few phones >> in thrift stores here of that vintage any more. ?Maybe at an estate >> sale from someone who hasn't moved in 25 years. > > Were rotary dial 'phones still being made after the breakup? Of the 4 US > phones I found in the junk shop [1], 3 of the were rotary dial types (as > I said, including this multi-line model 564 or something) I couldn't say for certain, but even into the 1990s, the phone company charged $1-$2USD/month for TouchTone service. Mostly by then, it was just a surcharge applied to your bill for their convenience. When I got a data line for UUCP around 1990 or so, I told them "no extras" - no call-waiting, no three-way-calling, no speed-dial, and no TouchTone. They tried to persuade me to get their profit-laden features, but they really balked at setting me up a pulse-dial line. I suggested that if it wasn't an option that could be canceled, then perhaps they were exceeding the rates set by agreement with the Public Utilities Commission. They acquiesced. I did have to patch the UUCP dialer program (I was calling from an Amiga and didn't have the right compiler environment to build from source) because you could _not_ pick pulse dial from L.sys because the app had "ATDT" hard-coded. A quick change to ATDP and it was happy. > [1] It called itself an antique shop, but many of the items on sale were > well under 100 years old. I learned on my first visit that in the UK, a hundred miles is a long way, but in the US, a hundred years is a long time *(I stayed in the "New Buildings" at New College - "new" because they were built by Queen Victoria and dedicated, like so many things, to Albert's memory. A building that age at home would be nearly as old as the State I'm from). For us, "antique" has a substantially smaller scale than for you. OTOH, I've driven over 1,000 miles in a weekend (closer to 1,200 miles), to buy a PDP-8/S, FWIW. Here's another datapoint on the timescale difference - when was at Oxford in the 1980s, we were told that "current events" (as opposed to "history") encompassed pretty much anything more recent than the death of Queen Victoria (i.e., about 75 years or so). At home, at the same time, "current events" encompassed anything since the end of the Vietnam War (around 10 years or so). Anecdotally, I'd estimate the interpretation of the phrase "not that old" to be around 6:1 to 10:1 if spoken by someone from the UK compared to spoken by someone from most of the US (allowing for regional variation in New England, being the older part of the US). >> If you have access to lift the faceplate, look for a part number >> starting in '35' and a manufacturing date prior to 1982. ?You don't >> want a part number starting with '72'.* > > You are joking, right? I am not going to be able to dismantle a 'phone > before buying it. In fact finding US phones over here is non-trivial. I am not joking in the slightest. I'm not suggesting you try this without the cooperation/permission of the seller, but you can either pop the faceplate out the front (and with a wee flat-blade screwdriver on the clip at the top, pop it back in), or just loosen the two screws and unmate the base from the top. The date is easily visible as a NN-MM month and year number, and the part number is in the same color paint and visible from the same orientation (near the buttons on the face of the dial). There might also be a stamped manufacturing date on the bottom, but I couldn't give you any specific guidance about format. If it's an ITT or other non-Western Electric phone, I'd wager it's IC-based. AFAIK, only the W-E phones (i.e., pre-breakup) would have the 1-transistor-2-coil keypad. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 20 14:59:02 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 15:59:02 -0400 Subject: Does anyone have any info about 1970s-era National Semiconductor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 3:24 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> National Semiconductor actually made calculators back in the 1970s... > > And add-on memory for PDP11s, etc Now that you mention it, I think I have a National Semiconductor-made memory card for a VAX-11/750 or -11/730. (same memory bus architecture as an 11/70, but supports individual cards larger than 256K with the right wires on the memory backplane and the right memory controller card). -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 20 15:00:42 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 13:00:42 -0700 Subject: With great sorrow In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 8:09 PM +0100 5/20/09, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Well, not really. I'm giving up most of my electronics and >> >computer stuff, but while it's all been great fun, I'm nor all that >> >sad about it. >> > As elegant as this stuff can be, I finally get to start riding >> >again, and I need the space (and cash of course!). >> >> Congratulations! The best of luck on your road to recovery! > >Are you seriously suggesting it would be a Good Thing if we all gave up >playing with our (classic computer) toys? Maybe... I've said in the past that I view this as an unhealthy hobby. We're moving into our new house this week, and once we get moved in we'll be emptying the 10x25' storage unit that houses the bulk of my remaining "computer junk". It will be interesting to see in the long run how much of it I get rid of. I definitely want to trim down the collection, the problem being that some of the stuff is spares for systems that I want to keep. I honestly have no clue as to how much stuff falls into the "no interest/use" category, and how much into the keep category. In any case a lot of what I get rid of will be going to the library for the one project I have for them. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 20 16:05:49 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 14:05:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: With great sorrow In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090520140517.K46343@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 20 May 2009, Tony Duell wrote: > Are you seriously suggesting it would be a Good Thing if we all gave up > playing with our (classic computer) toys? Not until AFTER all of my storage areas are emptied -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed May 20 16:09:33 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 23:09:33 +0200 Subject: HP1000 available In-Reply-To: References: <025101c9d8e4$ac364270$c900a8c0@JWEST> from "Jay West" at May 19, 9 07:48:20 pm Message-ID: <5F68690761A444CE866BC9948989EF10@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: woensdag 20 mei 2009 20:51 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: HP1000 available > > > Last thing I need is more HP1K's... but I'm always looking > out for a > > few > > This is one series of HP computer that I've never been > inside. So if anyone knows of any available in southern > England, I might be interested... Particularly if they're > relatively small... Well, if it's on my side of the big water, I would interested. > Now, from what I've read, the HP1000L (I think that's the > small one, isn't it) used an HP custom CPU chip. But I have > what appears to be a CPU board from such a machine built from > 4 2901s, a 2910, and microcode PROMs. What do I have? What > machine should I be looking for to find a complete system > using that sort of CPU board? > The HP 1000 A systems A600+ I've one of those, they run RTE-A . On the HP Museum site is a picture of the cpu board from the a600 +. http://www.hpmuseum.net/images/12105-60001_A600Plus_CPU-34.jpg > -tony > -Rik From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed May 20 17:07:57 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 15:07:57 -0700 Subject: S-100 power supply transformer References: <000701c9d84c$32823d00$0201a8c0@hal9000> <002601c9d8c9$8d933230$0201a8c0@hal9000> <4A1442BC.3070609@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4A147F3D.E79B6987@cs.ubc.ca> A slightly different take on this transformer requirements issue.. Hammond used to (perhaps they still do) provide a piece of paper with every transformer, listing part numbers and specs. Included on the paper was a table for voltage and current factors for basic rectifier/filter circuits: (extract) Rectifier Filter Voltage Current VA ------------------- ------ ------------------ ---------------- ----------------- Half-wave cap in DCV = ACV * 1.16 DCA = ACA * 0.38 DCVA = ACVA*0.44 Full-wave center tap cap in DCV = ACV * 1.25/2 DCA = ACA * 1 DCVA = ACVA*0.63 Full-wave bridge cap in DCV = ACV * 1.25 DCA = ACA * 0.56 DCVA = ACVA*0.7 AC values are RMS; VA figures I added in. They don't say precisely how these figures were arrived at, but reality is a little different than theory (e.g. 1.25 vs 1.414 for the voltage output from the filter, don't know whether that's reduced due to R losses or an average with ripple under load). I take it these values were provided as guidelines, as complete design takes into account C size, tolerable ripple, etc. -- TI published "The Voltage Regulator Handbook" in the 70's, which covers a lot of design issues for linear power supplies. Even it references a design procedure from 1943 (Schade graphical techniques) for the rectifier/filter design. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed May 20 17:18:08 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 23:18:08 +0100 Subject: Offtopic Scale, was Re: Re-installing a TouchTone keypad in an ASR-33 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1242857888.4200.94.camel@elric> On Wed, 2009-05-20 at 15:56 -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I learned on my first visit that in the UK, a hundred miles is a long > way, but in the US, a hundred years is a long time *(I stayed in the > "New Buildings" at New College You should come to Scotland, specifically the remoter parts of the North-West. With 100 miles as "just down the road to the shops", racking up a couple of thousand miles a week isn't uncommon. Oh, and near my old place there were a couple of houses called "The New Houses", built some time in the 17th century... Gordon From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed May 20 17:23:06 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 15:23:06 -0700 Subject: Re-installing a TouchTone keypad in an ASR-33 References: Message-ID: <4A1482CA.204E288C@cs.ubc.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > If it's an ITT or other non-Western Electric phone, I'd wager it's > IC-based. AFAIK, only the W-E phones (i.e., pre-breakup) would have > the 1-transistor-2-coil keypad. As indicated in my previous message on the topic, Automatic Electric was producing a 1-transistor DTMF design in the 60/70's, almost identical to WE's. -- I don't know what it was like in the Bell/WE regions, but out here DTMF, while available, didn't really take off until sometime in the late 70's/80's I would say, perhaps in correlation with the switch to IC-based DTMF. I'm guessing the number of 1-transistor DTMF phones produced was relatively small, (particularly) compared to the number of dial phones produced in the same time period. From doc at vaxen.net Wed May 20 17:35:52 2009 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 17:35:52 -0500 (CDT) Subject: With great sorrow In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A1485B1.8080708@vaxen.net> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 8:09 PM +0100 5/20/09, Tony Duell wrote: >> > > Well, not really. I'm giving up most of my electronics and >>> >computer stuff, but while it's all been great fun, I'm nor all that >>> >sad about it. >>> > As elegant as this stuff can be, I finally get to start riding >>> >again, and I need the space (and cash of course!). >>> >>> Congratulations! The best of luck on your road to recovery! >> >> Are you seriously suggesting it would be a Good Thing if we all gave up >> playing with our (classic computer) toys? > > Maybe... I've said in the past that I view this as an unhealthy hobby. > > We're moving into our new house this week, and once we get moved in > we'll be emptying the 10x25' storage unit that houses the bulk of my > remaining "computer junk". It will be interesting to see in the long > run how much of it I get rid of. I definitely want to trim down the > collection, the problem being that some of the stuff is spares for > systems that I want to keep. I honestly have no clue as to how much > stuff falls into the "no interest/use" category, and how much into the > keep category. In any case a lot of what I get rid of will be going to > the library for the one project I have for them. I'm finding it to be a pyramidal progression. I have All This Stuff, and when I look at, say, an ISA FDC/MFM controller I think "I can't toss this, it supports SSSD floppies!" And then I think "But wait, I'm ditching all the Z80/8088/6502/whatever gear! I don't NEED SSSD support! BuhBye!" Then I find the 80286 motherboard and I think "I need this to run that MFM controll... Wait!" And on and on. This hobby has been not at all healthy for me. Fully 80% of my *running* systems, let alone the projects, fail the 2-year rule**. At some point I went from "inquisitive" to "acquisitive", and all the fun went out. Doc ** "If it hasn't been powered on in 2 years..." From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 20 17:44:18 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 15:44:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: With great sorrow In-Reply-To: <4A1485B1.8080708@vaxen.net> References: <4A1485B1.8080708@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <20090520154236.L48451@shell.lmi.net> > if it hasn't been used in a year, get rid GF said that. I handed her the fire extinguisher. She's gone. The junk is still here. From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed May 20 17:49:30 2009 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 15:49:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Does anyone have any info about 1970s-era National Semiconductor LED modules? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <494061.97753.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 5/20/09, Ethan Dicks wrote: > The ones with 8 digits installed are > very possibly calculator modules. I've never seen this > sort of display with only 6 digits out of 8 populated. National made a 6-digit fixed-point calculator chip. Commodore sold a calculator, claimed to be the first to break the $20 barrier (in 1974 or so), that used it. --Bill From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 20 17:54:32 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 18:54:32 -0400 Subject: Re-installing a TouchTone keypad in an ASR-33 In-Reply-To: <4A1482CA.204E288C@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4A1482CA.204E288C@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 6:23 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> If it's an ITT or other non-Western Electric phone, I'd wager it's >> IC-based. ?AFAIK, only the W-E phones (i.e., pre-breakup) would have >> the 1-transistor-2-coil keypad. > > As indicated in my previous message on the topic, Automatic Electric was > producing a 1-transistor DTMF design in the 60/70's, almost identical to WE's. I'm unfamiliar with Automatic Electric. Did they make home phones or commercial? > I don't know what it was like in the Bell/WE regions, but out here DTMF, while > available, didn't really take off until sometime in the late 70's/80's I would > say, perhaps in correlation with the switch to IC-based DTMF. I don't recall when I saw my first TouchTone phone (besides the ones at COSI, the local science museum, in the Bell exhibit), but probably not until the late 1980s. > I'm guessing the > number of 1-transistor DTMF phones produced was relatively small, > (particularly) compared to the number of dial phones produced in the same time period. Compared to dial phones? A small number, I'm sure. Compared to IC-based-TouchTone, also a small number. I checked... coincidentally enough, the phone in my bedroom is a Western Electric 1-transistor-DTMF, made around 1981. It mostly still works, but frequently, when I pick up, the audio is very soft until I thwap the side of the phone (not the handset)... I don't use it often enough to have taken the time to check it out yet. Back at Pole in 2004, our science tech was also the drummer in the band that year (and other years, too). We were playing "Never There" by Cake and needed a particular TouchTone sound for a percussive element of the song - the "1" key, ISTR. I offered to whip up a 556-based fixed-tone generator, but our Drummer tore into an ITT phone (installed probably when ITT Antarctic Services had the 10-year services contract in the 1980s), and stuck in a 9V battery and a 1/4" mono-out jack, giving him a 12-tone instrument to play that just happened to look like a telephone. I was surprised he was able to do that, since my experience tearing apart phones as a kid was the 1-transistor design that I didn't understand at the time, but when I saw he had an IC-based keypad to work from, how he did it was clear. I am enjoying exploring the nuances of the 1-transistor design, but I'm sure I don't fully appreciate how it works yet. The IC-based DTMF generators are somewhat obvious to me at least. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 20 17:57:54 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 15:57:54 -0700 Subject: With great sorrow In-Reply-To: <20090520154236.L48451@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4A1485B1.8080708@vaxen.net>, <20090520154236.L48451@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4A142882.31593.BD4720B@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 May 2009 at 15:44, Fred Cisin wrote: > > if it hasn't been used in a year, get rid > > GF said that. I handed her the fire extinguisher. > She's gone. The junk is still here. Sometimes you can get a little behind. Recently, I was going through a stack of floppy mailers, deciding what old disks to toss when I came across a couple of unopened ones. One contained not a floppy, but a US Secret Service lapel pin and a note of thanks from the agent. He died a couple of years ago--and I never knew that he'd sent me the gift. Sometimes the stuff does get in the way--and I'm not a collector. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 20 17:59:56 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 18:59:56 -0400 Subject: With great sorrow In-Reply-To: <20090520154236.L48451@shell.lmi.net> References: <4A1485B1.8080708@vaxen.net> <20090520154236.L48451@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 6:44 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> if it hasn't been used in a year, get rid > > GF said that. ?I handed her the fire extinguisher. > She's gone. ?The junk is still here. I have books on the shelf that I haven't read in two years - OTOH, just this week I've been re-reading a science fiction series that I know I first bought more than 15 years ago. I can understand the "1 year, 2 year..." rule in principle, but I would never pick a hard date for anything for myself and say "this needs to go" merely because of age. I'm much more likely to thin based on what's interesting than when it was last powered on. I go in bursts on things. I also flit and dabble. Several times a year, I finish projects that I started more than 5 years ago. So far, the longest time between start and finish is somewhere around 22 years (porting "Zork I" to the PET). I do finish old projects, just not fast enough to please some people. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 20 18:01:37 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 19:01:37 -0400 Subject: Does anyone have any info about 1970s-era National Semiconductor LED modules? In-Reply-To: <494061.97753.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <494061.97753.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 6:49 PM, William Maddox wrote: > > --- On Wed, 5/20/09, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> The ones with 8 digits installed are >> very possibly calculator modules. ?I've never seen this >> sort of display with only 6 digits out of 8 populated. > > National made a 6-digit fixed-point calculator chip. > Commodore sold a calculator, claimed to be the first > to break the $20 barrier (in 1974 or so), that used > it. Hmm... that's a promising lead. I should go surf some C= calculator sites (I just have one Minuteman that mostly works but individual keys are somewhat sketchy, and it does want four "N" cells). Thanks for the tip. -ethan From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed May 20 18:12:50 2009 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 16:12:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Does anyone have any info about 1970s-era National Semiconductor LED modules? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <641672.3109.qm@web82606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 5/20/09, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hmm... that's a promising lead. I should go surf some > C= calculator > sites (I just have one Minuteman that mostly works but > individual keys > are somewhat sketchy, and it does want four "N" > cells). The calculator I mentioned was apparently the Minuteman 6: http://www.vintage-technology.info/pages/calculators/commodore/comin6.htm I owned one of these as a kid. --Bill From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 20 18:20:17 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 19:20:17 -0400 Subject: Does anyone have any info about 1970s-era National Semiconductor LED modules? In-Reply-To: <641672.3109.qm@web82606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <641672.3109.qm@web82606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 7:12 PM, William Maddox wrote: > > --- On Wed, 5/20/09, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> (I just have one Minuteman that mostly works...). > > The calculator I mentioned was apparently the Minuteman 6: > > http://www.vintage-technology.info/pages/calculators/commodore/comin6.htm I was just on... http://www.vintage-technology.info/pages/calculators/commodore/calccommodore.htm Mine is some flavor of Minuteman 3. > I owned one of these as a kid. Not me... this is a $3 thrift store find from a few years back. Now it's hard to find LED calcs in that venue - just too old for folks to run across and discard. Plenty of cheap chinese LCD world clock/alarm/calculators now though (and I already have one that's CompuServe branded and another that's Sanrio branded, so I don't need more of them). -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 20 18:27:49 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 19:27:49 -0400 Subject: Does anyone have any info about 1970s-era National Semiconductor LED modules? In-Reply-To: References: <641672.3109.qm@web82606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Found it! I have a couple of these modules... http://www.vintagecalculators.com/html/novus_650__mathbox_.html ... right down to the 470 Ohm resistor And a couple similar ones with 8 digits which might be the main component mentioned in the text of the above page as the "model 852" (especially since my LEDs are marked M850!) ... or maybe it's this... http://www.vintage-technology.info/pages/calculators/n/novus850.htm Thanks for the nudge to Commodore, Will... that gave me a good starting point to end up at the Novus series. Now to power them up and stick a keypad on them. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 20 18:43:38 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 16:43:38 -0700 Subject: Re-installing a TouchTone keypad in an ASR-33 In-Reply-To: References: , <4A1482CA.204E288C@cs.ubc.ca>, Message-ID: <4A14333A.31638.BFE4D7F@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 May 2009 at 18:54, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I'm unfamiliar with Automatic Electric. Did they make home phones or > commercial? For many years they made the phone equipment for GTE. Later, they were known as GTE Automatic Electric, founded by one Almon B. Strowger (he of the Strowger switch). Whatever's left of it is probably owned by Lucent. I used to have an AM (germanium) transistor radio made by them. Steel chassis, transistors in sockets. Sadly, it was lost in an accident. --Chuck From doc at vaxen.net Wed May 20 19:04:40 2009 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 19:04:40 -0500 (CDT) Subject: With great sorrow In-Reply-To: References: <4A1485B1.8080708@vaxen.net> <20090520154236.L48451@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4A14946F.7000002@vaxen.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I can understand the "1 year, 2 year..." rule in principle, but I > would never pick a hard date for anything for myself and say "this > needs to go" merely because of age. > > I'm much more likely to thin based on what's interesting than when it > was last powered on. I go in bursts on things. I also flit and > dabble. Several times a year, I finish projects that I started more > than 5 years ago. So far, the longest time between start and finish > is somewhere around 22 years (porting "Zork I" to the PET). I do > finish old projects, just not fast enough to please some people. Oh, yeah, no doubt. I'm keeping a couple that I haven't run in 5 years or more, and getting rid of a bunch that have been powered up in the last few months. The "2-year rule" is more of a mnemonic than a timer, if that makes any sense. Doc From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed May 20 19:16:38 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 17:16:38 -0700 Subject: Re-installing a TouchTone keypad in an ASR-33 References: <4A1482CA.204E288C@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4A149D67.3DA7FE95@cs.ubc.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I'm unfamiliar with Automatic Electric. Did they make home phones or > commercial? Chuck beat me to the reply while I was composing, but anyways: Going from web info, their lineage goes back to Strowger and the first automatic exchanges. Competitors to WE, manufacturing a range of equipment to supply to independant phone companies. Bought up by GTE (another WE competitor) in the 50's. Which explains why the phone (1-tran DTMF) sitting beside me on the desk here is from AE: GTE used to own BCTel (British Columbia Tel). > happened to look like a telephone. I was surprised he was able to do > that, since my experience tearing apart phones as a kid was the > 1-transistor design that I didn't understand at the time, but when I > saw he had an IC-based keypad to work from, how he did it was clear. > I don't recall when I saw my first TouchTone phone (besides the ones > at COSI, the local science museum, in the Bell exhibit), but probably > not until the late 1980s. Those don't correlate do they? (tearing apart TT phones as a kid but not seeing a TT phone until the late-80s?) > I am enjoying exploring the nuances of the 1-transistor design, but > I'm sure I don't fully appreciate how it works yet. The IC-based DTMF > generators are somewhat obvious to me at least. I picked up this one somewhere back around 2001, recognising from style and exterior simplicity (no extra functions like redial or stored numbers) that it would be a fairly early TT. Thought it would be interesting to see how the DTMF was done, opened it up to draw the schematic. While I was expecting discrete (accurate), I was quite surprised to find the novel simplicity of the 1-transistor circuit. From rescue at hawkmountain.net Wed May 20 19:23:52 2009 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 20:23:52 -0400 Subject: Update Re: With great sorrow In-Reply-To: <4A12DD4C.6060809@vaxen.net> References: <4A11B789.9080309@vaxen.net> <4A12DD4C.6060809@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4A149F18.9000407@hawkmountain.net> Doc wrote: > First, I promised a couple of folks a response or action last > night, but we had a lost kitten incident. As it's my wife's kitten, > everything else ground to a screeching halt. (The cat in question > showed up this morning healthy, happy, and completely clueless). > Anyhow, it put me a day behind. > > Second, "Wow!" > > I did not expect the kind of response I'm getting. I've gotten > *many* inquiries about the PDP-11s, the VS4000/90 and the Amigas, and > I've gotten quite a few queries about the rest. > > Y'all please be patient. I'm still sorting and collating. If > you've asked questions or made offers I'll respond ASAP, but it's > going to take a couple of days. > > The BeBox is sold, pending payment, as is the PDP-11/04. Thank > you, gentlemen! :-( (that was one I mentioned in my last mail that I was interested in) (The BeBox that is) I'll watch for a reply to that mail indicating which are still available. I didn't include offers, as I honestly have no idea what is fair, and I don't want to be insulting. (However, if you want offers anyway because you don't want to name a price, just let me know and I'll do my best and try not to be insulting :-) ). -- Curt > > The PDP-11/44 without front panel is committed to a collection. > > > Doc Shipley > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed May 20 19:25:45 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 17:25:45 -0700 Subject: Does anyone have any info about 1970s-era National Semiconductor LED modules? References: <641672.3109.qm@web82606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A149F89.D30CE85C@cs.ubc.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Not me... this is a $3 thrift store find from a few years back. Now > it's hard to find LED calcs in that venue - just too old for folks to > run across and discard. Plenty of cheap chinese LCD world > clock/alarm/calculators now though (and I already have one that's > CompuServe branded and another that's Sanrio branded, so I don't need > more of them). I fear that what happens with a lot of the old pocket calcs is they may get delivered in boxes of stuff to thrift stores but because they likely don't function, even if somebody bothers to put batteries in, they simply get tossed. A lot of thrift stores won't bother putting out non-functioning stuff. Unfortunately, I've had problems in a couple of Novus calcs using the Nat Semi LED modules with loss of individual segments, although admittedly the same can be said for some earlier TI calcs. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 20 19:28:54 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 17:28:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: With great sorrow In-Reply-To: <4A14946F.7000002@vaxen.net> References: <4A1485B1.8080708@vaxen.net> <20090520154236.L48451@shell.lmi.net> <4A14946F.7000002@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <20090520172711.K53497@shell.lmi.net> > is somewhere around 22 years (porting "Zork I" to the PET). I do > finish old projects, just not fast enough to please some people. Wow! I have some projects that are over 40 years old, and more than a few that won't be done when I die. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 20 19:52:38 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 17:52:38 -0700 Subject: Re-installing a TouchTone keypad in an ASR-33 In-Reply-To: <4A149D67.3DA7FE95@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <4A149D67.3DA7FE95@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4A144366.4296.C3D7CAB@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 May 2009 at 17:16, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > I'm unfamiliar with Automatic Electric. Did they make home phones > > or commercial? The GTE saga is quite interesting. I recall during the 70's listening to Chicago Symphony rebroadcasts from WFMT in Chicago, where GTE was one of the sponsors. Since WFMT standards prohibited pre-recorded commercials (they were always read by an announcer), they had to be a bit more interesting than the usual noisy garbage served up on radio. The GTE spot would typically highlight one of the GTE companies, such as Automatic Electric, Sylvania, Philco or Lenkurt and describe their products. "Gee--no, GTE!" Now, GTE seems to be as forgotten as "The Bell Telephone Hour". Back then, most of the communities in Silicon Valley were served by Pacific (Bell) Telephone, with the exception of Los Gatos, which was a GTE outpost. I don't know what the inter-network interface was, but it must have been something along the lines of acoustic couplers, because the quality of a call to Los Gatos was execrable. A 300 bps modem connection was difficult to say the least. --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 20 19:54:31 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 17:54:31 -0700 Subject: With great sorrow In-Reply-To: <4A1485B1.8080708@vaxen.net> References: <4A1485B1.8080708@vaxen.net> Message-ID: At 5:35 PM -0500 5/20/09, Doc wrote: > This hobby has been not at all healthy for me. Fully 80% of my >*running* systems, let alone the projects, fail the 2-year rule**. >At some point I went from "inquisitive" to "acquisitive", and all >the fun went out. > > Doc > >** "If it hasn't been powered on in 2 years..." I like that rule! Of course I'd exempt a couple supporting systems (only needed when getting software onto a system I use). That rule may go into effect in two years. It wouldn't be fair to put it into effect when I simply haven't had access to the machines. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 20 19:56:52 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 17:56:52 -0700 Subject: With great sorrow In-Reply-To: References: <4A1485B1.8080708@vaxen.net> <20090520154236.L48451@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: At 6:59 PM -0400 5/20/09, Ethan Dicks wrote: >I have books on the shelf that I haven't read in two years - OTOH, >just this week I've been re-reading a science fiction series that I >know I first bought more than 15 years ago. I would never apply such a rule to things like Books, Comics, or gaming stuff. I may go well beyond 5-10 years between messing with a RPG or Wargame, but I sure wouldn't want to get rid of the stuff between those times. OTOH, if I were to get rid of all my Warhammer 40k stuff I'd recoup a disturbing amount of space. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From imsaicollector at yahoo.com Wed May 20 19:57:29 2009 From: imsaicollector at yahoo.com (Michael Hart) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 17:57:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IMSAI-8080 listed on e-bay... Message-ID: <91245.37696.qm@web57004.mail.re3.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/Fully-Functional-IMSAI-8080-boots-CP-M-in-Great-Cond_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1234Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a0Q7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem41460f8155QQitemZ280348295509QQptZLHQ5fDefaultDomainQ5f0QQsalenotsupported From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed May 20 20:27:51 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 18:27:51 -0700 Subject: Re-installing a TouchTone keypad in an ASR-33 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 15:56:07 -0400 > Subject: Re: Re-installing a TouchTone keypad in an ASR-33 > From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com ---snip--- > > I couldn't say for certain, but even into the 1990s, the phone company > charged $1-$2USD/month for TouchTone service. Mostly by then, it was > just a surcharge applied to your bill for their convenience. When I > got a data line for UUCP around 1990 or so, I told them "no extras" - > no call-waiting, no three-way-calling, no speed-dial, and no > TouchTone. They tried to persuade me to get their profit-laden > features, but they really balked at setting me up a pulse-dial line. > I suggested that if it wasn't an option that could be canceled, then > perhaps they were exceeding the rates set by agreement with the Public > Utilities Commission. They acquiesced. I did have to patch the UUCP > dialer program (I was calling from an Amiga and didn't have the right > compiler environment to build from source) because you could _not_ > pick pulse dial from L.sys because the app had "ATDT" hard-coded. A > quick change to ATDP and it was happy. The last time I had a connection, I told them I didn't want the touch-tone feature ( a few dollars a month ). I don't pay for it but I've used a touch-tone phone on my line several times. I suspect that like you, it was too much trouble to remove so they just left it connected. ---snip--- > > If it's an ITT or other non-Western Electric phone, I'd wager it's > IC-based. AFAIK, only the W-E phones (i.e., pre-breakup) would have > the 1-transistor-2-coil keypad. > > -ethan Hi I used to work for a company call SpeedCall. They made touch tone decoders for taxi cabs and similar uses. They all decoded with coil and capacitor. Only the coil had to be exactly wound ( to the turn ). It had a slug to tune it to work with the capacitor used with it. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail? goes with you. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Mobile1_052009 From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 20 20:51:10 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 19:51:10 -0600 Subject: With great sorrow In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 20 May 2009 18:59:56 -0400. Message-ID: I guess for me its different because my intention always was to create a physically visitable museum. I'm making progress on that front. We're moving to a new warehouse that has enough space that at least I can do a "visible storage" style exhibit. I'm musing on how best to present the collection. I was thinking of creating an audio tour that people could listen to on their portable MP3 players? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed May 20 21:01:06 2009 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 22:01:06 -0400 Subject: With great sorrow In-Reply-To: <20090520172711.K53497@shell.lmi.net> References: <4A1485B1.8080708@vaxen.net> <20090520154236.L48451@shell.lmi.net> <4A14946F.7000002@vaxen.net> <20090520172711.K53497@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4A14B5E2.4080303@compsys.to> >Fred Cisin wrote: >>is somewhere around 22 years (porting "Zork I" to the PET). I do >>finish old projects, just not fast enough to please some people. >> >> > >Wow! >I have some projects that are over 40 years old, >and more than a few that won't be done when I die. > >-- >Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > I estimate that sieving for the value of pi ( 10**18 ) would take me about 10 years if I started today. If I live for another 100 years, the computers then might take about one day. Now pi ( 10**30 ) is ... The code for the program can be written, but it might take too long to run! From spectre at floodgap.com Wed May 20 21:12:23 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 19:12:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: With great sorrow In-Reply-To: <20090520172711.K53497@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "May 20, 9 05:28:54 pm" Message-ID: <200905210212.n4L2CNDB019532@floodgap.com> > > is somewhere around 22 years (porting "Zork I" to the PET). I do > > finish old projects, just not fast enough to please some people. > > Wow! > I have some projects that are over 40 years old, > and more than a few that won't be done when I die. I have made dying a project, which ensures I won't complete it for *years*. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If Milli Vanilli falls in the woods, does someone else make a sound? -- rhf From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 20 21:18:27 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 19:18:27 -0700 Subject: With great sorrow In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 7:51 PM -0600 5/20/09, Richard wrote: >I guess for me its different because my intention always was to create >a physically visitable museum. > >I'm making progress on that front. We're moving to a new warehouse >that has enough space that at least I can do a "visible storage" style >exhibit. I'm musing on how best to present the collection. The museum intent was one that I had years ago, it will be partially realized when we finally get a building for the library, as part of my collection will be part of a physical exhibit to go with the computer history section the library has which I've been building over the years, and other people have donated stuff for. Of course computer history, at least at this point, is simply a small part of the libraries collection. Maybe 1-2%, but it's still very large, and very DEC oriented. Much of what I've kept are my VMS manuals and 8-bit doc's, at some point they'll go to the library as well. >I was thinking of creating an audio tour that people could listen to >on their portable MP3 players? That's actually an interesting idea, but how would they get the tour loaded? They'd just about have to do it prior to visiting. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 20 22:04:50 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 21:04:50 -0600 Subject: Museum interpretations (was: With great sorrow) In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 20 May 2009 19:18:27 -0700. Message-ID: In article , "Zane H. Healy" writes: > Richard (legalize at xmission.com) wrote: > >I was thinking of creating an audio tour that people could listen to > >on their portable MP3 players? > > That's actually an interesting idea, but how would they get the tour > loaded? They'd just about have to do it prior to visiting. Well, for starters I'd probably get some used RIOs off ebay that are preloaded with the MP3. Supply your own headphones? I don't want to have grungy earbuds that people have to use. Lots of people have phones that can play an MP3 audio file if it is loaded onto the phone. USB/Bluetooth from a server would be an option. Maybe if it was a series of MP3 files, one for each 'station', then you could skip past bits that aren't interesting to you. Static museums with printed text placards are kinda boring to me, particular with computers unless you're a real geek. But hey, that's what most of the CHM is, considering that visible storage takes up most of the floor space. With computer graphics, its ultimately about interactivity, but everyone's gotta start somewhere and a static exhibit with interpretation is where most of us start. I have a web site, but I'm not happy with the CMS software I'm currently using (DotNetNuke), so I'm looking for something better. That's why I haven't invested much time in putting information into it. I have an alternate system I'm evaluating but haven't had a chance to get much further than obtain the software. I'm thinking the museum will probably proceed in this form of evolution of the interpretation: - "Visible Storage" with pamphlet highlighting elements from the collection. - Expand the pamphlet into booklet form. Booklet contents on the web site with elaboration. - Add interpretive audio tour, single MP3 about ~15 minutes of listening. - Enhance audio tour with numbered stations, one MP3 per station, varying amounts of time per station, about an hour of total listening. - Add some interactive stations exploring graphics of different periods. These would most likely be SGI octanes (since I have an abundant number of them) with emulation software showcasing earlier period experiences. Include some form of multistation networked gaming. - Enhance interactive stations with playback of historical footage (animations, shorts, films, etc.). Increase period experiences (really this could go on for quite some time). - Enhance animation/short film experience with a small theatre seating 15-30 people, with an interactive kiosk allowing the participants to queue up films of interest, otherwise it cycles through random films as long as someone is in the theatre. All of this will be colocated with my friend's arcade game collection, so realistically all the boring stuff listed above will be riding on the coattails of the free arcade :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 20 22:27:01 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 23:27:01 -0400 Subject: BA123 Replacement Casters? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <64D5F338-F561-446D-B245-50A68C56C8DA@neurotica.com> On May 20, 2009, at 12:53 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Has anyone replaced the casters on one of their BA123 enclosures? > If so any advice? My spare chassis has had dead casters for > years. I discovered yesterday as we started moving out of storage > that my beloved PDP-11/73's chassis has dead casters. :-( I'm not > worried about maintaining a "stock" unit, I want functionality. I'm having the same problem. I picked up some casters at a semi- local surplus place, and they were close, but not close enough to fit. My original casters started to disintegrate and have made a terrible mess on the tile floor of my office. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 20 22:49:29 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 20:49:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Museum interpretations (was: With great sorrow) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090520204801.U60173@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 20 May 2009, Richard wrote: > Well, for starters I'd probably get some used RIOs off ebay that are > preloaded with the MP3. Supply your own headphones? I don't want to > have grungy earbuds that people have to use. sell cheap earbuds. They're negligible cost, and could make you a buck. sell preloaded MP3 players From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed May 20 22:58:14 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 20:58:14 -0700 Subject: S-100 power supply transformer In-Reply-To: <4A147F3D.E79B6987@cs.ubc.ca> References: <000701c9d84c$32823d00$0201a8c0@hal9000> <002601c9d8c9$8d933230$0201a8c0@hal9000> <4A1442BC.3070609@dunnington.plus.com> <4A147F3D.E79B6987@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 15:07:57 -0700 > From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > To: General at invalid.domain > Subject: Re: S-100 power supply transformer > > A slightly different take on this transformer requirements issue.. > Hammond used to (perhaps they still do) provide a piece of paper with every > transformer, listing part numbers and specs. Included on the paper was a table > for voltage and current factors for basic rectifier/filter circuits: (extract) > > Rectifier Filter Voltage Current VA > ------------------- ------ ------------------ ---------------- ----------------- > Half-wave cap in DCV = ACV * 1.16 DCA = ACA * 0.38 DCVA = ACVA*0.44 > Full-wave center tap cap in DCV = ACV * 1.25/2 DCA = ACA * 1 DCVA = ACVA*0.63 > Full-wave bridge cap in DCV = ACV * 1.25 DCA = ACA * 0.56 DCVA = ACVA*0.7 > > AC values are RMS; VA figures I added in. > > They don't say precisely how these figures were arrived at, but reality is a > little different than theory (e.g. 1.25 vs 1.414 for the voltage output from > the filter, don't know whether that's reduced due to R losses or an average > with ripple under load). > > I take it these values were provided as guidelines, as complete design takes > into account C size, tolerable ripple, etc. > > -- > > TI published "The Voltage Regulator Handbook" in the 70's, which covers a lot > of design issues for linear power supplies. Even it references a design > procedure from 1943 (Schade graphical techniques) for the rectifier/filter design. What voltages were they talking about for these types of numbers? The 1.414 number is the best case. allowing some for the diode and as you save, expected ripple. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail? has ever-growing storage! Don?t worry about storage limits. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage1_052009 From john_finigan at yahoo.com Wed May 20 23:07:01 2009 From: john_finigan at yahoo.com (John Finigan) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 21:07:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC OSF/1 - Digital Unix - Tru64 Release History Message-ID: <152531.62056.qm@web37008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I was annoyed that there seemed to be no comprehensive DEC OSF/1 release history info on the web (contrast the Wikipedia pages on Solaris or HP-UX), so I decided to take a shot at it, adding the table to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tru64 The 4.0 and above stuff I was able to date by the release notes, but before that I had to estimate based on old usenet posts, etc. Seeing as what gets posted to Wikipedia automatically becomes fact, I wasn't totally thrilled about doing that, but it's a start. The bummer is, if you look at: http://web.archive.org/web/19990429061828/www.unix.digital.com /faqs/publications/pub_page/doc_list.html You can see that there used to be release notes up, but the archive must not save postscript, and they don't seem to be around the web at all. If anybody has the notes, or just figures he can do better, please edit the wiki page. Some info on important 'letter' point releases would be great too. John Finigan From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed May 20 23:31:20 2009 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 23:31:20 -0500 Subject: HP1000 available References: Message-ID: <002a01c9d9cc$fdf7efd0$c900a8c0@JWEST> I had written... >> Last thing I need is more HP1K's... but I'm always looking out for a few To which Tony replied... > This is one series of HP computer that I've never been inside. So if > anyone knows of any available in southern England, I might be > interested... Particularly if they're relatively small... Tony - don't you have a 2112? That's a 1000M (when I said HP1K I was using shorthand for HP1000) > Now, from what I've read, the HP1000L (I think that's the small one, > isn't it) used an HP custom CPU chip. But I have what appears to be a CPU > board from such a machine built from 4 2901s, a 2910, and microcode > PROMs. What do I have? What machine should I be looking for to find a > complete system using that sort of CPU board? There was actually an HP1000K if memory serves... the one I am referring to is a 1000 M/E/F style box, but it is modular. You can pick various memory & I/O chassis & such (instead of the canned slot count). I have never seen one in the wild, but I do have the marketing brochure for it. Jay From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu May 21 00:04:06 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 22:04:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IMSAI-8080 listed on e-bay... In-Reply-To: <91245.37696.qm@web57004.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <91245.37696.qm@web57004.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 May 2009, Michael Hart wrote: [snipped long URL] For future reference, the item number is all you need to point someone to an auction. For this one, it's 280348295509. Good luck! -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu May 21 00:31:44 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 22:31:44 -0700 Subject: IMSAI-8080 listed on e-bay... References: <91245.37696.qm@web57004.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A14E741.C865DFE7@cs.ubc.ca> David Griffith wrote: > > On Wed, 20 May 2009, Michael Hart wrote: > [snipped long URL] > > For future reference, the item number is all you need to point someone to > an auction. For this one, it's 280348295509. Good luck! Yes, but then it's a two step (two page loads) process. I like the full url, the number is easy enough to copy out of the url for those who wish to do so (IMHO). From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Thu May 21 00:50:46 2009 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 01:50:46 -0400 Subject: IMSAI-8080 listed on e-bay... In-Reply-To: <91245.37696.qm@web57004.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20090521014649.014b4678@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Michael Hart may have mentioned these words: [[ URL for epay auction ]] Yes, but with a little bit of highlight-n-press the delete key, you get this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280348295509 Small enough to be useful, has the item number, etc. But hey... that's just me. I'm weird like that. Laterz, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu May 21 00:59:28 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 22:59:28 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/40 Unibus termination query... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A14EDC0.6060002@mail.msu.edu> Tony Duell wrote: >> Hey all -- >> >> I'm one step closer to bringing my 11/40 back to life -- the front panel >> is now responding and I can examine and deposit memory. >> >> But the machine is only responsive without the Unibus terminator (an >> M9302) installed. If it's installed, the front panel is basically hung >> -- toggling "Start" causes a brief flurry of activity, but that's the >> only thing that causes any response. >> >> Without the terminator installed, the front panel more or less works, I >> can examine and deposit memory, load the address register, etc... but I >> can't get any toggled in code to run, obviously -- it traps to the bus >> error vector at 00004. >> > > I don't see why that is 'obviosu' A short Unibus will normally work with > a termination at one end only. > > >> (There's also an odd issue, which I doubt is related, but >> Examining/Depositing does not correctly increment the address -- >> starting from 0, it's "0, 2, 6, 12, 16, 22, 26..." and if I start at 1 >> it's "1, 3, 7, 13, 17, 23, 27...") >> > > I think you should look at that too. It is clearly storing the '4's bit > correctly, since it does take account of it in future increments. THis > looks like a bus buffer problem, but you want to find out. > I fixed an incorrect jumper (my boardset was configured for the EIS option, which I do not have) and that solved the incrementing problems. Now that that's fixed, programs I've toggled in seem to be running correctly, too. Yay! > >> I currently have the CPU boards + MMU option installed in the correct >> order with a SLU card in the SPC slot, and an M981 connecting to a >> 4-slot Unibus backplane with a single 64K MOS memory card (M7891) in >> slot 2 -- all other slots have grant continuity cards installed. The >> Unibus terminator is installed in the last slot. >> >> Any ideas? >> > > Normally when a system hanges if you had an M9302 terminator, it's a > grant problem (as I've mentioned before, if a grant actually gets to the > M9302, that card assets SACK, causing the CPU (or more precisely the > arbiter) to deassert the grant line. If the 'grant' is due to a signal > floating because of an open grant chain, the CPU can't deassrt the grant > line _at the terminator_, and the system hangs with SACK asserted). > > Anyway, you mention you've got grant continuity cards in all the empty > slots. I assume the're in the right connector (D), and the right way > round :-). In which case, check the NPG jumpers on your backplane > (wirewrapped links from pin CA1 to CB1). > I'm fairly sure I have the grant continuity cards in the right way (they're not exactly clearly labeled -- these are the tiny ones that lack handles). They're in the D connector of the empty slots, and oriented such that the label "Grant Continuity" is the right way up (or put another way, such that the conductors on the card edge are facing toward the back of the machine). I'll check the NPG jumpers -- here's a stupid question -- how do I find where they're supposed to be? I've looked all over for a simple diagram showing which pins are CA1 and CB1, but I'm not finding them... Thanks, Josh > What I normally do is use a logic probe to see just which grant is > getting to the terminator. Then make sure it's not being asserted by the > CPU (there could be a fault in the CPU, a dead buffer or something), and > then check it along tbe backplane to find out whrre it's starting from. > > -tony > > > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu May 21 01:30:49 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 23:30:49 -0700 Subject: S-100 power supply transformer References: <000701c9d84c$32823d00$0201a8c0@hal9000> <002601c9d8c9$8d933230$0201a8c0@hal9000> <4A1442BC.3070609@dunnington.plus.com> <4A147F3D.E79B6987@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4A14F519.F588ED32@cs.ubc.ca> dwight elvey wrote: > > ---------------------------------------- > > Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 15:07:57 -0700 > > From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > > To: General at invalid.domain > > Subject: Re: S-100 power supply transformer > > > > A slightly different take on this transformer requirements issue.. > > Hammond used to (perhaps they still do) provide a piece of paper with every > > transformer, listing part numbers and specs. Included on the paper was a table > > for voltage and current factors for basic rectifier/filter circuits: (extract) > > > > Rectifier Filter Voltage Current VA > > ------------------- ------ ------------------ ---------------- ----------------- > > Half-wave cap in DCV = ACV * 1.16 DCA = ACA * 0.38 DCVA = ACVA*0.44 > > Full-wave center tap cap in DCV = ACV * 1.25/2 DCA = ACA * 1 DCVA = ACVA*0.63 > > Full-wave bridge cap in DCV = ACV * 1.25 DCA = ACA * 0.56 DCVA = ACVA*0.7 > > > > AC values are RMS; VA figures I added in. > > > > They don't say precisely how these figures were arrived at, but reality is a > > little different than theory (e.g. 1.25 vs 1.414 for the voltage output from > > the filter, don't know whether that's reduced due to R losses or an average > > with ripple under load). > > > > I take it these values were provided as guidelines, as complete design takes > > into account C size, tolerable ripple, etc. > > > > -- > > > > TI published "The Voltage Regulator Handbook" in the 70's, which covers a lot > > of design issues for linear power supplies. Even it references a design > > procedure from 1943 (Schade graphical techniques) for the rectifier/filter design. > > What voltages were they talking about for these types > of numbers? > The 1.414 number is the best case. allowing some for the diode > and as you save, expected ripple. > Dwight They came in the box with Hammond's low-voltage transformers (3 to 100VAC): 165,166,167 series. It may be that there is some specificity to Hammond's design characteristics. I mention them as an example of real-world relationships, and that there is some derating of the VA capability of the transformer when used in these circuits. From tiggerlasv at aim.com Thu May 21 01:43:03 2009 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 02:43:03 -0400 Subject: BA123 Replacement Casters - Suitable substitute found Message-ID: <8CBA7F6864E6A76-1388-2C96@WEBMAIL-MB14.sysops.aol.com> The BA123 casters have a rubber lining on either side of the caster; I had the same deterioration on my BA123's. . . except I didn't find out until I had rolled one over a section of carpet in the house. (That was fun to clean up. . . . not !) Presumably, the rubber is for vibration deadening. Since I didn't have a convenient source for them at the time, I opted to make them less messy. I just took a small flat-blade screwdriver, and cored the rubber out from both sides of each caster. Since it was already "leaking" out from all of the casters, I didn't have any "moral" issues with this. Once the rubber is out, the casters are just plain ol' casters, and they roll just fine. More recently, additional research has revealed: The casters were made by Shepherd casters (www.shepherdcasters.com). I found a close replacement part - Shepherd PSF50101BK has the same mounting pattern, and diameter. Although it is a slightly different style, it should make an adequate replacement. A quick search turned up this: http://www.apollocaster.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=71_85&products_id=68061 As info. . . T From bqt at softjar.se Wed May 20 14:20:02 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 21:20:02 +0200 Subject: Nostalgic technologies article In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A1457E2.3020106@softjar.se> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>> > > > Hayes modems >>> > > >>> > > Just about all modems are Hayes compatible (and I think you can still buy >>> > > dial-up modems...) >> > >> > AT commands are alive and well and in your mobile phone - how else do >> > you talk to the radio stack? > > You're not pulling my leg, are you? That's actually pretty cool. Is it > the same kind of command set, ATDT and all? Yes. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From tiggerlasv at aim.com Thu May 21 01:51:08 2009 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 02:51:08 -0400 Subject: BA123 Replacement Casters - Suitable substitute found Message-ID: <8CBA7F7A74040E1-1388-2CA6@WEBMAIL-MB14.sysops.aol.com> As a follow-up, if you're a perfectionist, and want the shroud over the top of the wheels, then Shepherd PTW50101BK will suffice. To my knowlege, it does not have the rubber dampers. These also appear to be available here: http://www.apollocaster.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=71_85_116&products_id=69786 From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu May 21 03:03:18 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 05:03:18 -0300 Subject: Does anyone have any info about 1970s-era National SemiconductorLED modules? References: , <4A13C482.19090.A4DCF0D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <0d5e01c9d9ea$a5054350$71ce19bb@desktaba> >> National Semiconductor actually made calculators back in the 1970s - I >> used to have one maybe 20 years ago, but it is long gone. They also >> made a line of plug compatible S/370 mainframes, as well. > As well as watches and video games. I still have an NSC watch > (nonfunctioning) and I recall giving a Pong game to my brother's > family as a gift back then. Chuck, you made me remember my first digital clock I was very young, about 4 or 5 years old (I'll be 35 in 3 days) and it was a white plastic watch with a red face and very tiny red numbers that lighted only with a press of a buttom. I remember clearly it was made by texas instruments. I'd love to have one of these again, but I think with this new wave of "everything vintage", it must be very expensive (and rare!) these days... :o( Stop the press!!! Here it is: http://www.ledwatches.net/photo-pages/texas-instruments3.htm I had the white one :o) From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Thu May 21 04:54:00 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 10:54:00 +0100 Subject: Jones plugs with 40 pins In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8591AAE6-D96A-4839-8959-364B5881A96A@microspot.co.uk> Does anyone here have a any 40 pin Jones type plugs in their junk boxes they would be willing to sell? I have only just found out the name of these things, I've been looking for a long time but not known how to describe them. I now have a regular search on eBay but so far there have only been small ones. Roger. P.S. they fit the sockets on my IBM 836 (like an 026 keypunch but with I/O and plug programmable) From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu May 21 05:16:30 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 11:16:30 +0100 Subject: Does anyone have any info about 1970s-era National SemiconductorLED modules? In-Reply-To: <0d5e01c9d9ea$a5054350$71ce19bb@desktaba> References: , <4A13C482.19090.A4DCF0D@cclist.sydex.com> <0d5e01c9d9ea$a5054350$71ce19bb@desktaba> Message-ID: <1242900990.4200.105.camel@elric> On Thu, 2009-05-21 at 05:03 -0300, Alexandre Souza wrote: > >> National Semiconductor actually made calculators back in the 1970s - I > >> used to have one maybe 20 years ago, but it is long gone. They also > >> made a line of plug compatible S/370 mainframes, as well. > > As well as watches and video games. I still have an NSC watch > > (nonfunctioning) and I recall giving a Pong game to my brother's > > family as a gift back then. > > Chuck, you made me remember my first digital clock > > I was very young, about 4 or 5 years old (I'll be 35 in 3 days) and it > was a white plastic watch with a red face and very tiny red numbers that > lighted only with a press of a buttom. I remember clearly it was made by > texas instruments. I'd love to have one of these again, but I think with > this new wave of "everything vintage", it must be very expensive (and rare!) > these days... :o( > > Stop the press!!! Here it is: > http://www.ledwatches.net/photo-pages/texas-instruments3.htm > I had the white one :o) > A friend of mine had the black one. I remember him showing my Dad and I it, as we sat and fiddled with CB radios out in the back field. Wow, technology has moved on... (just comparing a ?100-in-late-70s-money 4-watt CB radio the size of two bricks that guzzled AA nicads with my ?15 5-watt 70cm handheld the size of an espresso cup) Gordon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu May 21 04:54:05 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 10:54:05 +0100 Subject: OT-ish, Museums and MP3s Re: Museum interpretations (was: With great sorrow) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1242899645.4200.102.camel@elric> On Wed, 2009-05-20 at 21:04 -0600, Richard wrote: > In article , > "Zane H. Healy" writes: > > > Richard (legalize at xmission.com) wrote: > > >I was thinking of creating an audio tour that people could listen to > > >on their portable MP3 players? > > > > That's actually an interesting idea, but how would they get the tour > > loaded? They'd just about have to do it prior to visiting. > > Well, for starters I'd probably get some used RIOs off ebay that are > preloaded with the MP3. Supply your own headphones? I don't want to > have grungy earbuds that people have to use. Why bother? You can pick up el-cheapo MP3 players for pennies these days. Unless you want to get people into the classic computing spirit with a classic MP3 player (the original Rio can't be far off on-topic by now...) > Maybe if it was a series of MP3 files, one for each 'station', then > you could skip past bits that aren't interesting to you. Static > museums with printed text placards are kinda boring to me, particular > with computers unless you're a real geek. But hey, that's what most > of the CHM is, considering that visible storage takes up most of the > floor space. Infrared headphones, and a player at every exhibit? > With computer graphics, its ultimately about interactivity, but > everyone's gotta start somewhere and a static exhibit with > interpretation is where most of us start. I have a web site, but I'm > not happy with the CMS software I'm currently using (DotNetNuke), so > I'm looking for something better. That's why I haven't invested much > time in putting information into it. I have an alternate system I'm > evaluating but haven't had a chance to get much further than obtain > the software. There are enough CMSes out there that I'm sure you can find one that you like. DotNetNuke scares me a bit - from what I can tell, it's the frankly rather horrible PHPNuke system rewritten in .NET and only running on MS Windows servers - a recipe for disaster! > All of this will be colocated with my friend's arcade game collection, > so realistically all the boring stuff listed above will be riding on > the coattails of the free arcade :-) Sounds great! Gordon From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu May 21 08:06:48 2009 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 08:06:48 -0500 Subject: PDP 11/40 Unibus termination query... In-Reply-To: <4A14EDC0.6060002@mail.msu.edu> References: <4A14EDC0.6060002@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4A1551E8.7060804@ubanproductions.com> > I'll check the NPG jumpers -- here's a stupid question -- how do I find > where they're supposed to be? I've looked all over for a simple diagram > showing which pins are CA1 and CB1, but I'm not finding them... The backplane information is clearly described in the Peripherals Handbook. If you don't have a copy and you intend to work with these machines, then you need to get yourself a copy. The 'C' in CXX is the slot. In a hex backplane, there are six slots, A - F. Each slot has 18 sets of two pins, each set being identified by a letter: ABCDEFHJKLMNPRSTUV. You will note that any letter which looks remotely like a digit is skipped. The second character 'A' in your example (CA1) indicates the first set of pins. Each slot has two sides designated as '1' and '2' and they are denoted by the third character '1' in your example (CA1). A1 . . A2 B1 . . B2 C1 . . C2 D1 . . D2 E1 . . E2 F1 . . F2 H1 . . H2 J1 . . J2 K1 . . K2 L1 . . L2 M1 . . M2 N1 . . N2 P1 . . P2 R1 . . R2 S1 . . S2 T1 . . T2 U1 . . U2 V1 . . V2 This notation is read as viewed from the wire wrapped (pin) side of the backplane, left to right, and top to bottom. So for your example, for a given card, CA1 is the 3rd slot from the top, the 1st set of pins in that slot, and the left hand pin of the set of two. Hope this helps. --tom From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu May 21 08:50:53 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 06:50:53 -0700 Subject: sdk 2920 In-Reply-To: <4A14F519.F588ED32@cs.ubc.ca> References: <000701c9d84c$32823d00$0201a8c0@hal9000> <002601c9d8c9$8d933230$0201a8c0@hal9000> <4A1442BC.3070609@dunnington.plus.com> <4A147F3D.E79B6987@cs.ubc.ca> <4A14F519.F588ED32@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: Hi I generally don't post about things on ebay but this is a rare one. Intel SDK-2920 It is #270390988255 As I recall the chip was Intel's first and last attempt at a DSP chip. It was EPROM and processor in one. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd1_052009 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 21 09:30:44 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 10:30:44 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/40 Unibus termination query... In-Reply-To: <4A1551E8.7060804@ubanproductions.com> References: <4A14EDC0.6060002@mail.msu.edu> <4A1551E8.7060804@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 9:06 AM, Tom Uban wrote: >> I'll check the NPG jumpers -- here's a stupid question -- how do I find >> where they're supposed to be? ?I've looked all over for a simple diagram >> showing which pins are CA1 and CB1, but I'm not finding them... > > The backplane information is clearly described in the Peripherals Handbook. > If you don't have a copy and you intend to work with these machines, then > you need to get yourself a copy. Having worked with these machines a lot over the years, I can personally recommend having the right handbooks on hand when configuring things or diagnosing problems - it will save a lot of time and grief. Back in the day, we always had them and we used them frequently. > The 'C' in CXX is the slot... Another way to see is to look at a dual-height Unibus grant card and note which pair of pins is shorted together on the "C" finger (the one that only has one pair of pins shorted, not the one that has 3 pairs of pins shorted). If you don't _have_ a dual-height grant card, you are going to have to get very familiar with where the NPR pins are because you are going to be wrapping and unwrapping that jumper on the backplane every time you insert or remove cards. At Software Results, we used to make dual-height grant cards so we could stick one in every COMBOARD box for our customers' convenience (the last batch of 100 we ever bought ran about $20 each, 15 years ago). Since we had them lying around, we always removed *every* NPR wire on every backplane and never used G727 single-height grant cards. It just took too much time to reconfigure machines otherwise. I've also seen shops that tended not to want to buy fistfuls of dual-height grant cards, so they just minimized how often they fiddled with the backplane - once they got it right, they tried not to mess with it. I still have the films (manual paste-up) for the Grantosaurus Rex cards, c. 1981., but our last grant card was a plain rectangular affair with a handle cutout. Not as interesting, but much cheaper to make. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu May 21 10:23:03 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 08:23:03 -0700 Subject: BA123 Replacement Casters - Suitable substitute found In-Reply-To: <8CBA7F6864E6A76-1388-2C96@WEBMAIL-MB14.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBA7F6864E6A76-1388-2C96@WEBMAIL-MB14.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: At 2:43 AM -0400 5/21/09, tiggerlasv at aim.com wrote: >The BA123 casters have a rubber lining on either side of the caster; >I had the same deterioration on my BA123's. . . except I didn't find out >until I had rolled one over a section of carpet in the house. >(That was fun to clean up. . . . not !) I was lucky, both of my BA123's have had their wheels die while in storage. Not so lucky for the storage company. :-) >Presumably, the rubber is for vibration deadening. I've already significantly deadened the noise on the one I use by a combination of getting all the side panels, AND switching to 3.5"x1" SCSI drives. >Since I didn't have a convenient source for them at the time, >I opted to make them less messy. With everything that is going on with moving into our new house, somehow I think this makes the most sense. Besides I haven't even figured out where the Q-Bus boards and drives are! :-) Still at some point I'll most likely want to bring it into my office, unless I simply leave it out in the garage. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 21 11:16:49 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 10:16:49 -0600 Subject: Jones plugs with 40 pins In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 21 May 2009 10:54:00 +0100. <8591AAE6-D96A-4839-8959-364B5881A96A@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: Don't have one, but in case others don't know what "jones plug" is either, I did find a pic: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 21 11:18:44 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 10:18:44 -0600 Subject: OT-ish, Museums and MP3s Re: Museum interpretations (was: With great sorrow) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 21 May 2009 10:54:05 +0100. <1242899645.4200.102.camel@elric> Message-ID: In article <1242899645.4200.102.camel at elric>, Gordon JC Pearce writes: > There are enough CMSes out there that I'm sure you can find one that you > like. DotNetNuke scares me a bit - from what I can tell, it's the > frankly rather horrible PHPNuke system rewritten in .NET and only > running on MS Windows servers - a recipe for disaster! I get free server space for my current site from a Windows based outfit, so .NET is the platform of choice. Free trumps ideology. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 21 11:20:09 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 10:20:09 -0600 Subject: IMSAI-8080 listed on e-bay... In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 20 May 2009 22:31:44 -0700. <4A14E741.C865DFE7@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: In article <4A14E741.C865DFE7 at cs.ubc.ca>, Brent Hilpert writes: > David Griffith wrote: > > For future reference, the item number is all you need to point someone to > > an auction. For this one, it's 280348295509. Good luck! > > Yes, but then it's a two step (two page loads) process. I have the ebay search provider added to IE7, its a one-step process. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 21 11:24:06 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 12:24:06 -0400 Subject: OT-ish, Museums and MP3s Re: Museum interpretations (was: With great sorrow) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 21, 2009, at 12:18 PM, Richard wrote: >> There are enough CMSes out there that I'm sure you can find one >> that you >> like. DotNetNuke scares me a bit - from what I can tell, it's the >> frankly rather horrible PHPNuke system rewritten in .NET and only >> running on MS Windows servers - a recipe for disaster! > > I get free server space for my current site from a Windows based > outfit, so .NET is the platform of choice. > > Free trumps ideology. Well, if "ideology" is defined as "caring whether or not your stuff runs".. ;) -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu May 21 11:43:18 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 12:43:18 -0400 Subject: Jones plugs with 40 pins In-Reply-To: <8591AAE6-D96A-4839-8959-364B5881A96A@microspot.co.uk> References: <8591AAE6-D96A-4839-8959-364B5881A96A@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: > Does anyone here have a any 40 pin Jones type plugs in their junk boxes they > would be willing to sell? Can you provide a picture with dimensions? Jones plugs, especially the ones with large numbers of connections, come in various sizes and formats (big or small pin? 4 x 10 or 5 x 8? Which pins are keys?). -- Will From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 21 11:52:08 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 12:52:08 -0400 Subject: BA123 Replacement Casters - Suitable substitute found In-Reply-To: References: <8CBA7F6864E6A76-1388-2C96@WEBMAIL-MB14.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Thanks for posting a source for casters. I have a BA-123 that came to me with one missing (but I think there is some bent metal on one or more corners where the casters go)*. I should probably just get 2-4 casters and be ready to replace them all. -ethan * In my experience, lots of people used to sit on BA-123s, especially people who were large enough that they should have known better. From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 21 11:54:33 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 09:54:33 -0700 Subject: Does anyone have any info about 1970s-era National SemiconductorLED modules? In-Reply-To: <1242900990.4200.105.camel@elric> References: , <0d5e01c9d9ea$a5054350$71ce19bb@desktaba>, <1242900990.4200.105.camel@elric> Message-ID: <4A1524D9.9735.FAE2508@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 May 2009 at 11:16, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > A friend of mine had the black one. I remember him showing my Dad and > I it, as we sat and fiddled with CB radios out in the back field. > Wow, technology has moved on... (just comparing a > ?100-in-late-70s-money 4-watt CB radio the size of two bricks that > guzzled AA nicads with my ?15 5-watt 70cm handheld the size of an > espresso cup) Around 1972, a co-worker obtained a divorce from his well-to-do wife who hadn't the foresight to execute a prenuptual agreement with him. He engaged in a lot of interesting buying afterwards--one item was a Pulsar digital. I recall it was freakishly expensive--over USD$1000. Even then, it seemed inevitable that LED watches would eventually be cheaper than the mechanical variety. Having to push a button to read the time was ridiculous. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 21 12:12:44 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 13:12:44 -0400 Subject: OT-ish, Museums and MP3s Re: Museum interpretations (was: With great sorrow) In-Reply-To: References: <1242899645.4200.102.camel@elric> Message-ID: On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 12:18 PM, Richard wrote: > I get free server space for my current site from a Windows based > outfit, so .NET is the platform of choice. > > Free trumps ideology. Working in a .NET environment for free is still too expensive for me. I would only touch it if I were getting paid, and paid more than I get now for working with UNIX-friendly stuff. _Then_ it might be cost-effective. There's free-as-in-speech and free-as-in-beer... it's easy to get one _or_ the other in a number of ways - it has to be both to make me willing to change directions. -ethan From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Thu May 21 12:30:55 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 19:30:55 +0200 Subject: BA123 Replacement Casters - Suitable substitute found In-Reply-To: References: <8CBA7F6864E6A76-1388-2C96@WEBMAIL-MB14.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: > Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 12:52:08 -0400 > Subject: Re: BA123 Replacement Casters - Suitable substitute found > From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Thanks for posting a source for casters. I have a BA-123 that came to > me with one missing (but I think there is some bent metal on one or > more corners where the casters go)*. I should probably just get 2-4 > casters and be ready to replace them all. > > -ethan > > * In my experience, lots of people used to sit on BA-123s, especially > people who were large enough that they should have known better. Yup, thanks for the URL! My BA123 casters were damaged rolling them in the move to the new house. Ridges between tiles are hard on them. Ethan, if you are going to buy one or two (or may be 4) casters, I'd be interested in also getting 4 new casters, especially if they fit perfectly (read: no extra holes drilling required) ... If a few more people on this list have BA123's with damaged casters, may be you can go for the discount quantity ... thanks, - Henk. From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu May 21 12:41:40 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 10:41:40 -0700 Subject: BA123 Replacement Casters - Suitable substitute found In-Reply-To: References: <8CBA7F6864E6A76-1388-2C96@WEBMAIL-MB14.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: At 12:52 PM -0400 5/21/09, Ethan Dicks wrote: >Thanks for posting a source for casters. I have a BA-123 that came to >me with one missing (but I think there is some bent metal on one or >more corners where the casters go)*. I should probably just get 2-4 >casters and be ready to replace them all. > >-ethan > >* In my experience, lots of people used to sit on BA-123s, especially >people who were large enough that they should have known better. This is related to why my spare chassis has issues. I used to sit other hardware on top of it. The one my PDP-11/73 lives in hasn't had much more than a VT420 sitting on it in the last 10+ years (and for 8+ of them it hasn't even had that on top). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 21 12:54:05 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 13:54:05 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/40 Unibus termination query... In-Reply-To: References: <4A14EDC0.6060002@mail.msu.edu> <4A1551E8.7060804@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: On May 21, 2009, at 10:30 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I still have the films (manual paste-up) for the Grantosaurus Rex > cards, c. 1981. I saw one of those on eBay a couple of years ago. I was wondering what the deal was with that. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 21 12:58:19 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 13:58:19 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/40 Unibus termination query... In-Reply-To: References: <4A14EDC0.6060002@mail.msu.edu> <4A1551E8.7060804@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 1:54 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 21, 2009, at 10:30 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> I still have the films (manual paste-up) for the Grantosaurus Rex >> cards, c. 1981. > > ?I saw one of those on eBay a couple of years ago. ?I was wondering what the > deal was with that. ;) Yep... there's some discussion of it on the list archives. I think they are great, but I understand why we went with cheaper ones (no silk-screen, for example). I still wish we'd added some jumper pads to allow us to flip them from Unibus to Qbus grant cards, but when that last order was being placed, the production guys just ordered more of what we'd been ordering rather than incur the expense of a change. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 21 13:09:23 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 14:09:23 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/40 Unibus termination query... In-Reply-To: References: <4A14EDC0.6060002@mail.msu.edu> <4A1551E8.7060804@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <3A1E546A-1960-4C05-8F25-30BB817DA4CC@neurotica.com> On May 21, 2009, at 1:58 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> I still have the films (manual paste-up) for the Grantosaurus Rex >>> cards, c. 1981. >> >> I saw one of those on eBay a couple of years ago. I was >> wondering what the >> deal was with that. ;) > > Yep... there's some discussion of it on the list archives. > > I think they are great, but I understand why we went with cheaper ones > (no silk-screen, for example). I still wish we'd added some jumper > pads to allow us to flip them from Unibus to Qbus grant cards, but > when that last order was being placed, the production guys just > ordered more of what we'd been ordering rather than incur the expense > of a change. That would've been really nice. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu May 21 13:19:29 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 11:19:29 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/40 Unibus termination query... In-Reply-To: <4A1551E8.7060804@ubanproductions.com> References: <4A14EDC0.6060002@mail.msu.edu> <4A1551E8.7060804@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <4A159B31.2070905@mail.msu.edu> Tom Uban wrote: >> I'll check the NPG jumpers -- here's a stupid question -- how do I find >> where they're supposed to be? I've looked all over for a simple diagram >> showing which pins are CA1 and CB1, but I'm not finding them... >> > > The backplane information is clearly described in the Peripherals Handbook. > If you don't have a copy and you intend to work with these machines, then > you need to get yourself a copy. > > The 'C' in CXX is the slot. In a hex backplane, there are six slots, A - F. > Each slot has 18 sets of two pins, each set being identified by a letter: > ABCDEFHJKLMNPRSTUV. You will note that any letter which looks remotely like > a digit is skipped. The second character 'A' in your example (CA1) indicates > the first set of pins. Each slot has two sides designated as '1' and '2' and > they are denoted by the third character '1' in your example (CA1). > > A1 . . A2 > B1 . . B2 > C1 . . C2 > D1 . . D2 > E1 . . E2 > F1 . . F2 > H1 . . H2 > J1 . . J2 > K1 . . K2 > L1 . . L2 > M1 . . M2 > N1 . . N2 > P1 . . P2 > R1 . . R2 > S1 . . S2 > T1 . . T2 > U1 . . U2 > V1 . . V2 > > This notation is read as viewed from the wire wrapped (pin) side of the > backplane, left to right, and top to bottom. So for your example, for a given > card, CA1 is the 3rd slot from the top, the 1st set of pins in that slot, > and the left hand pin of the set of two. > > Hope this helps. > Thanks -- very helpful. Didn't know about the Peripherals Handbook. I have the engineering sets for all the boards, the 11/40 user & service manuals, and a few other miscellaneous items, guess I've got (at least) one more PDF to download :). Josh > --tom > > > From RichA at vulcan.com Thu May 21 13:26:44 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 11:26:44 -0700 Subject: With great sorrow In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Zane H. Healy Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 7:18 PM > At 7:51 PM -0600 5/20/09, Richard wrote: >> I guess for me its different because my intention always was to create >> a physically visitable museum. [snip] >> I was thinking of creating an audio tour that people could listen to >> on their portable MP3 players? > That's actually an interesting idea, but how would they get the tour > loaded? They'd just about have to do it prior to visiting. As a matter of fact, we discussed this exact scenario in my msueum exhibit design class last Saturday. Many museums, like the Metropolitan in NYC, are putting their tours into MP3s and podcasts for people to download prior to their visit. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell http://www.pdpplanet.org/ From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu May 21 13:28:35 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 11:28:35 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/40 Unibus termination query... In-Reply-To: <4A14EDC0.6060002@mail.msu.edu> References: <4A14EDC0.6060002@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4A159D53.6090500@mail.msu.edu> Josh Dersch wrote: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> >> Normally when a system hanges if you had an M9302 terminator, it's a >> grant problem (as I've mentioned before, if a grant actually gets to >> the M9302, that card assets SACK, causing the CPU (or more precisely >> the arbiter) to deassert the grant line. If the 'grant' is due to a >> signal floating because of an open grant chain, the CPU can't deassrt >> the grant line _at the terminator_, and the system hangs with SACK >> asserted). >> >> Anyway, you mention you've got grant continuity cards in all the >> empty slots. I assume the're in the right connector (D), and the >> right way round :-). In which case, check the NPG jumpers on your >> backplane (wirewrapped links from pin CA1 to CB1). > I'm fairly sure I have the grant continuity cards in the right way > (they're not exactly clearly labeled -- these are the tiny ones that > lack handles). They're in the D connector of the empty slots, and > oriented such that the label "Grant Continuity" is the right way up > (or put another way, such that the conductors on the card edge are > facing toward the back of the machine). > > I'll check the NPG jumpers -- here's a stupid question -- how do I > find where they're supposed to be? I've looked all over for a simple > diagram showing which pins are CA1 and CB1, but I'm not finding them... > Ok -- thanks to the gracious help of several list members, I now know where the NPG jumpers are. I checked them out on my backplane, and they're all installed. Based on my understanding, this should be correct for my current configuration -- the only card installed is a 64KW memory board, which isn't a DMA device, so the NPG jumper for that slot should still be installed, correct? Thanks again, Josh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 21 12:28:42 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 18:28:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re-installing a TouchTone keypad in an ASR-33 In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at May 20, 9 03:56:07 pm Message-ID: > >> Given that the switch to IC-based tone generators looks to be around > >> 1982, before the breakup of Ma Bell, I'd say that there are few phones > >> in thrift stores here of that vintage any more. =A0Maybe at an estate > >> sale from someone who hasn't moved in 25 years. > > > > Were rotary dial 'phones still being made after the breakup? Of the 4 US > > phones I found in the junk shop [1], 3 of the were rotary dial types (as > > I said, including this multi-line model 564 or something) > > I couldn't say for certain, but even into the 1990s, the phone company > charged $1-$2USD/month for TouchTone service. Mostly by then, it was As an aside, some of the earlier pushbutton 'phones in the UK (which were rensted from the Post Office) used loop disconnect (pulse) dialing. The dialer unit had a PCB with 3 or 4 metal-can (TO99 or similar) ICs on it, which I never managed to indentify. They may well have been custom. > > [1] It called itself an antique shop, but many of the items on sale were > > well under 100 years old. > > I learned on my first visit that in the UK, a hundred miles is a long My point is that IIRC an 'antique' has to be over 100 years old. > way, but in the US, a hundred years is a long time *(I stayed in the > "New Buildings" at New College - "new" because they were built by Sounds like you were at what I call 'The Other Place' :-) > Queen Victoria and dedicated, like so many things, to Albert's memory. > A building that age at home would be nearly as old as the State I'm > from). For us, "antique" has a substantially smaller scale than for Sure... This reminds me of a story when I was at Cambridge. An obnoxious American tourist (no, not all Americans, or all American tourists are obnoxious, but this one was) asked the porter at one of the older colleges 'Is the college pre-war'. The porter replied 'Sir, this college is pre-America' :-). > you. OTOH, I've driven over 1,000 miles in a weekend (closer to 1,200 > miles), to buy a PDP-8/S, FWIW. Yes, of me, going 100 miles (each way) to pick up a classic computer is a long trip. > >> If you have access to lift the faceplate, look for a part number > >> starting in '35' and a manufacturing date prior to 1982. =A0You don't > >> want a part number starting with '72'.* > > > > You are joking, right? I am not going to be able to dismantle a 'phone > > before buying it. In fact finding US phones over here is non-trivial. > > I am not joking in the slightest. I'm not suggesting you try this Except at radio rallies, I have naver had permission to take something apart before buying it. Maybe remove clip-on covers, but using tools is a no-no. I can understand why -- the seller doesn't know that I have this way of gettign things back togther. Equally I don't know that the case ising internally cracked and will fall apart when I take out a screw. > > If it's an ITT or other non-Western Electric phone, I'd wager it's > IC-based. AFAIK, only the W-E phones (i.e., pre-breakup) would have > the 1-transistor-2-coil keypad. Right. So, alas, the chances of me finding one over here are pretty remote :-( -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 21 12:35:08 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 18:35:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: With great sorrow In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at May 20, 9 01:00:42 pm Message-ID: > >Are you seriously suggesting it would be a Good Thing if we all gave up > >playing with our (classic computer) toys? > > Maybe... I've said in the past that I view this as an unhealthy hobby. I have to wonder why you carry on with it :-). Is it like smoking, you know it's unhealthy, but you get addicted to it? > > We're moving into our new house this week, and once we get moved in > we'll be emptying the 10x25' storage unit that houses the bulk of my > remaining "computer junk". It will be interesting to see in the long > run how much of it I get rid of. I definitely want to trim down the > collection, the problem being that some of the stuff is spares for > systems that I want to keep. I honestly have no clue as to how much > stuff falls into the "no interest/use" category, and how much into > the keep category. In any case a lot of what I get rid of will be > going to the library for the one project I have for them. I know that problem all too well. Several times I've had things which I don't feel are particularly useful, but I keep them. And then one day they turn out to be just the thing I need. Examples ; Years ago I was given an HP9866A printer, it was being thrown out, and the chap doing the clearout knew I liked HP stuff. So I accepted it with thanks, not knowing what it was used with, what the interface was, etc. And then perhaps 10 years later I was given an HP9830, which has a built-in interface for just this printer. So of course, after repairing the HP9830, I got the 9866 going too. Or the time I was given and HP5055 'digital recorder' -- a numeric-only strip printer. It sat in the cupboard for 15 years until I bought an HP59301 HPIB-parallel interface on E-bay and relaised (after figuring out connections, etc) that one of the devices it could directly drive was the 5055. S, again, the 5055 came out of said cupboard and got cleaned up, repaired, etc And an old Amstrad 'laptop' [1] (PPC640 IIRC) got pressed into service to run the 'microtest' floppy disk test/alignment system. Another machine I didn't know what I was going to use it for before I found that use. [1] For people with big laps. It's actually wider than a PDP11 front panel! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 21 13:03:56 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 19:03:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP1000 available In-Reply-To: <002a01c9d9cc$fdf7efd0$c900a8c0@JWEST> from "Jay West" at May 20, 9 11:31:20 pm Message-ID: > > I had written... > >> Last thing I need is more HP1K's... but I'm always looking out for a few > > To which Tony replied... > > This is one series of HP computer that I've never been inside. So if > > anyone knows of any available in southern England, I might be > > interested... Particularly if they're relatively small... > > Tony - don't you have a 2112? That's a 1000M (when I said HP1K I was using No, the only HP mimi I have is the 2100A. Unless you could the HP9800 series of desktop calcualators which have a bit-serial processor made from about 80 chips implementing a similar (but not identical) architecutre nad instruction set. > shorthand for HP1000) Sure, I got that :-) > > > Now, from what I've read, the HP1000L (I think that's the small one, > > isn't it) used an HP custom CPU chip. But I have what appears to be a CPU > > board from such a machine built from 4 2901s, a 2910, and microcode > > PROMs. What do I have? What machine should I be looking for to find a > > complete system using that sort of CPU board? > > There was actually an HP1000K if memory serves... the one I am referring to Following Rik's suggestion I looked at the pictures of the HP1000 A600+ and it appears that's the CPU board I have. Pity I don;t have the rest of the machine... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 21 12:41:06 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 18:41:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP1000 available In-Reply-To: <5F68690761A444CE866BC9948989EF10@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at May 20, 9 11:09:33 pm Message-ID: > > > Last thing I need is more HP1K's... but I'm always looking > > out for a > > > few > > > > This is one series of HP computer that I've never been > > inside. So if anyone knows of any available in southern > > England, I might be interested... Particularly if they're > > relatively small... > > Well, if it's on my side of the big water, I would interested. I believe we're both on the same side of the Pond. > > > Now, from what I've read, the HP1000L (I think that's the > > small one, isn't it) used an HP custom CPU chip. But I have > > what appears to be a CPU board from such a machine built from > > 4 2901s, a 2910, and microcode PROMs. What do I have? What > > machine should I be looking for to find a complete system > > using that sort of CPU board? > > > > The HP 1000 A systems A600+ I've one of those, they run RTE-A . YEs, having looked at the picture of the CPU board, it appears to be the board I have . The A700 looks to be not too much custom either (apart from those 3 PGA chipss on the FPU, presumably ASICs for the data path). I'd love to find one of either of those machines. But it appears fate has decided I am not going to get an HP1000. On 3 occasions I've nearly got one, and then not ended up with it. Once was, I think, my fault, it was _years_ ago and I didn't realise what it was. Another was given to a friend of mine, we lost touch, and I think he gave his entire collection to Bletchley Park. (I don't know what model it was, but he descibed the CPU as 'made of 2901s'. And the last one is the one I have the CPU board from. An ex-friend of mine (you'll see why he's an ex-friend) was given it. He decided he didn't want it and threw it out, after pulling the 3 PCBs from the card cage, which he then gave to me (these appear to be the CPU I described, a RAM board, and an HPIB interface). For all he knew I loved old HPs, he didn't offer me the entire machine. But that wasn't the first time. He was great and convincing me to give him stuff, but never thought I might want it back when he'd tired of it. Oh well... Another thing he threw out was a rare Sanders 12/7 printer, for all he knew I have one and could have used the font ROMs, printhead, mechancial parts, etc. Oh well... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 21 13:08:41 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 19:08:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP 11/40 Unibus termination query... In-Reply-To: <4A14EDC0.6060002@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at May 20, 9 10:59:28 pm Message-ID: > > > >> I currently have the CPU boards + MMU option installed in the correct > >> order with a SLU card in the SPC slot, and an M981 connecting to a > >> 4-slot Unibus backplane with a single 64K MOS memory card (M7891) in > >> slot 2 -- all other slots have grant continuity cards installed. The > >> Unibus terminator is installed in the last slot. > >> > >> Any ideas? > >> > > > > Normally when a system hanges if you had an M9302 terminator, it's a > > grant problem (as I've mentioned before, if a grant actually gets to the > > M9302, that card assets SACK, causing the CPU (or more precisely the > > arbiter) to deassert the grant line. If the 'grant' is due to a signal > > floating because of an open grant chain, the CPU can't deassrt the grant > > line _at the terminator_, and the system hangs with SACK asserted). > > > > Anyway, you mention you've got grant continuity cards in all the empty > > slots. I assume the're in the right connector (D), and the right way > > round :-). In which case, check the NPG jumpers on your backplane > > (wirewrapped links from pin CA1 to CB1). > > > I'm fairly sure I have the grant continuity cards in the right way > (they're not exactly clearly labeled -- these are the tiny ones that > lack handles). They're in the D connector of the empty slots, and Correct. That's the 4th one from the top of the machine -- that is there should be 3 empty conenctors above the grant continuity card and 2 below it > oriented such that the label "Grant Continuity" is the right way up (or > put another way, such that the conductors on the card edge are facing > toward the back of the machine). Correct. > > I'll check the NPG jumpers -- here's a stupid question -- how do I find > where they're supposed to be? I've looked all over for a simple diagram > showing which pins are CA1 and CB1, but I'm not finding them... OK. The 'C' means connector C (the one above the connector where you've puy the grant card) The 'A' and 'B' mean the top 2 pins on a particular side (the 18 pins on a particular side are lettered A B C D E F H J K L M N P R S T U V) The '1' means the front (component) side of the connector. There should eb a wire-wrapped link between these 2 pins on every SPC slot in the machine. It would be fitted at the factory, but cut if an NPR (DMA, basically) device was used in that slot. In fact it _must_ be cut if you put such a device in the slot. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 21 13:00:48 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 19:00:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: With great sorrow In-Reply-To: <200905210212.n4L2CNDB019532@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at May 20, 9 07:12:23 pm Message-ID: > I have made dying a project, which ensures I won't complete it for *years*. This reminds me of Raymond Smullyan's method for becoming immortal : 1) Always tell the truth 2) Say 'I will repeat this statement tomorrow' :-) -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 21 13:34:33 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 12:34:33 -0600 Subject: Does anyone have any info about 1970s-era National SemiconductorLED modules? In-Reply-To: <1242900990.4200.105.camel@elric> References: , <4A13C482.19090.A4DCF0D@cclist.sydex.com> <0d5e01c9d9ea$a5054350$71ce19bb@desktaba> <1242900990.4200.105.camel@elric> Message-ID: <4A159EB9.2050304@jetnet.ab.ca> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > A friend of mine had the black one. I remember him showing my Dad and I > it, as we sat and fiddled with CB radios out in the back field. Wow, > technology has moved on... (just comparing a ?100-in-late-70s-money > 4-watt CB radio the size of two bricks that guzzled AA nicads with my > ?15 5-watt 70cm handheld the size of an espresso cup) But how many people have the Nixie Watch. !? > Gordon > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 21 13:35:07 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 19:35:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP 11/40 Unibus termination query... In-Reply-To: <3A1E546A-1960-4C05-8F25-30BB817DA4CC@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at May 21, 9 02:09:23 pm Message-ID: > > I think they are great, but I understand why we went with cheaper ones > > (no silk-screen, for example). I still wish we'd added some jumper > > pads to allow us to flip them from Unibus to Qbus grant cards, but IIRC the FPF11 (floating point board for the 11/23 and 11/24) has that feature. > > when that last order was being placed, the production guys just > > ordered more of what we'd been ordering rather than incur the expense > > of a change. > > That would've been really nice. Some years ago I was given a box of mostly home-made grant cards. The home-made ones turned out toe be dual-height prototyping boards with links soldered between the pins. You can guess what I did with those :-) -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 21 13:43:06 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 11:43:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Does anyone have any info about 1970s-era National SemiconductorLED modules? In-Reply-To: <4A1524D9.9735.FAE2508@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <0d5e01c9d9ea$a5054350$71ce19bb@desktaba>, <1242900990.4200.105.camel@elric> <4A1524D9.9735.FAE2508@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20090521114118.F84867@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 21 May 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Around 1972, a co-worker obtained a divorce from his well-to-do wife > who hadn't the foresight to execute a prenuptual agreement with him. > He engaged in a lot of interesting buying afterwards--one item was a > Pulsar digital. I recall it was freakishly expensive--over USD$1000. > Even then, it seemed inevitable that LED watches would eventually be > cheaper than the mechanical variety. Having to push a button to read > the time was ridiculous. Orbiting this at a distance of roughly ninety-two million miles is an utterly insignificant little blue green planet whose ape-descended life forms are so amazingly primitive that they still think digital watches are a pretty neat idea. . . . . . . "Haaaauuurrgghhh ..." said Arthur as he felt his body softening and bending in unusual directions. "Southend seems to be melting away ... the stars are swirling ... a dustbowl ... my legs are drifting off into the sunset ... my left arm's come off too." A frightening thought struck him: "Hell," he said, "how am I going to operate my digital watch now?" He wound his eyes desperately around in Ford's direction. From IanK at vulcan.com Thu May 21 13:56:18 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 11:56:18 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/40 Unibus termination query... In-Reply-To: <4A159D53.6090500@mail.msu.edu> References: <4A14EDC0.6060002@mail.msu.edu> <4A159D53.6090500@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: Unless you have a DMA device - which is typically going to be something like a disk or tape controller - the NPG grant should be daisy-chained without break. I disagree slightly with Ethan's assertion that this is something you'll play with these jumpers a lot: I've only done it once, for a tape controller. Maybe I've just been lucky. :-) I think if I ever remove that tape controller and put in a non-NPR board, I'm going to find some sort of slide-on jumper for CA1-CB1, just in case.... ISTR that the 11/40 uses a M930 terminator. I think I have one I could loan you for testing, if you'd like. -- Ian > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Josh Dersch > Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 11:29 AM > To: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: PDP 11/40 Unibus termination query... > > > > Josh Dersch wrote: > > > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > >> > >> Normally when a system hanges if you had an M9302 terminator, it's a > >> grant problem (as I've mentioned before, if a grant actually gets to > >> the M9302, that card assets SACK, causing the CPU (or more precisely > >> the arbiter) to deassert the grant line. If the 'grant' is due to a > >> signal floating because of an open grant chain, the CPU can't > deassrt > >> the grant line _at the terminator_, and the system hangs with SACK > >> asserted). > >> > >> Anyway, you mention you've got grant continuity cards in all the > >> empty slots. I assume the're in the right connector (D), and the > >> right way round :-). In which case, check the NPG jumpers on your > >> backplane (wirewrapped links from pin CA1 to CB1). > > I'm fairly sure I have the grant continuity cards in the right way > > (they're not exactly clearly labeled -- these are the tiny ones that > > lack handles). They're in the D connector of the empty slots, and > > oriented such that the label "Grant Continuity" is the right way up > > (or put another way, such that the conductors on the card edge are > > facing toward the back of the machine). > > > > I'll check the NPG jumpers -- here's a stupid question -- how do I > > find where they're supposed to be? I've looked all over for a simple > > diagram showing which pins are CA1 and CB1, but I'm not finding > them... > > > Ok -- thanks to the gracious help of several list members, I now know > where the NPG jumpers are. I checked them out on my backplane, and > they're all installed. Based on my understanding, this should be > correct for my current configuration -- the only card installed is a > 64KW memory board, which isn't a DMA device, so the NPG jumper for that > slot should still be installed, correct? > > Thanks again, > Josh From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 21 14:02:35 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 15:02:35 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/40 Unibus termination query... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 21, 2009, at 2:35 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> I think they are great, but I understand why we went with cheaper >>> ones >>> (no silk-screen, for example). I still wish we'd added some jumper >>> pads to allow us to flip them from Unibus to Qbus grant cards, but > > IIRC the FPF11 (floating point board for the 11/23 and 11/24) has that > feature. In fact it does. I used to have two of those boards about twenty years ago, and now I can't find either one. I'm rather pissed about that. > Some years ago I was given a box of mostly home-made grant cards. The > home-made ones turned out toe be dual-height prototyping boards > with links > soldered between the pins. You can guess what I did with those :-) *snicker* -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 21 14:06:19 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 15:06:19 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/40 Unibus termination query... In-Reply-To: References: <4A14EDC0.6060002@mail.msu.edu> <4A159D53.6090500@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 2:56 PM, Ian King wrote: > Unless you have a DMA device - which is typically going to be something like a disk or tape controller - the NPG grant should be daisy-chained without break. Agreed. > ?I disagree slightly with Ethan's assertion that this is something you'll play with these jumpers a lot: I've only done it once, for a tape controller. ?Maybe I've just been lucky. ?:-) ?I think if I ever remove that tape controller and put in a non-NPR board, I'm going to find some sort of slide-on jumper for CA1-CB1, just in case.... It depends on how you use your machine. In my experience, the contents change. If you don't have to remove a DMA-capable-board (to borrow it for another machine, say), then you won't have to fiddle NPR wires. If you only have devices like an RX-11, it's not a DMA device so you don't have to fiddle jumpers. We used to move tape and disk controllers several times a year as we mocked up customer configurations to chase down bugs. I'm glad we had a pile of dual-height grant cards that were effectively free. It saved us a lot of time when we changed the machines, which we did from time to time. If you only have one PDP-11 or you have enough peripheral cards for each of the PDP-11s you do have then maybe you won't have to reconfigure very often. YMMV. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 21 14:07:54 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 15:07:54 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/40 Unibus termination query... In-Reply-To: References: <3A1E546A-1960-4C05-8F25-30BB817DA4CC@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 2:35 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> > I think they are great, but I understand why we went with cheaper ones >> > (no silk-screen, for example). ?I still wish we'd added some jumper >> > pads to allow us to flip them from Unibus to Qbus grant cards, but > > IIRC the FPF11 (floating point board for the 11/23 and 11/24) has that > feature. I think you are right. I don't have one, but I do remember seeing that documented in a handbook. That's probably where I got the idea. -ethan From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Thu May 21 14:18:39 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 20:18:39 +0100 Subject: Jones plugs with 40 pins In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > From: William Donzelli > >> Does anyone here have a any 40 pin Jones type plugs in their junk >> boxes they >> would be willing to sell? > > Can you provide a picture with dimensions? Jones plugs, especially the > ones with large numbers of connections, come in various sizes and > formats (big or small pin? 4 x 10 or 5 x 8? Which pins are keys?). They are 4 by 10 pins. I think the left row of 10 are keyed vertical, the next row horizontal, then vertical then horizontal, which would stop you plugging in upside-down. I can measure them properly at the weekend but I would estimate the sockets are about 3 inches high and about an inch wide. I will get a big torch and check the keying as well. The three sockets are labelled T1, T2 and K and they were originally for connecting a cable to a BCD encoded Friden Flexowriter which gave tape to card and card to tape copying, with a printout made at the same time. Thanks, Roger Holmes. From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 21 14:22:22 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 13:22:22 -0600 Subject: OT-ish, Museums and MP3s Re: Museum interpretations (was: With great sorrow) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 21 May 2009 13:12:44 -0400. Message-ID: In article , Ethan Dicks writes: > On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 12:18 PM, Richard wrote: > > I get free server space for my current site from a Windows based > > outfit, so .NET is the platform of choice. > > > > Free trumps ideology. > > Working in a .NET environment for free is still too expensive for me. I'm not telling you to use .NET, so why do you point this out? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 21 14:24:11 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 13:24:11 -0600 Subject: OT-ish, Museums and MP3s Re: Museum interpretations (was: With great sorrow) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 21 May 2009 12:24:06 -0400. Message-ID: In article , Dave McGuire writes: > Well, if "ideology" is defined as "caring whether or not your > stuff runs".. ;) So predictable and not even mildly funny. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu May 21 14:24:30 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 15:24:30 -0400 Subject: Jones plugs with 40 pins In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > They are 4 by 10 pins. I think the left row of 10 are keyed vertical, the > next row horizontal, then vertical then horizontal, which would stop you > plugging in upside-down. I think that is a non-standard one. I have sold hundreds of Jones plugs, and have not seen that configuration. You may have to modify something to fit. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 21 14:27:44 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 15:27:44 -0400 Subject: OT-ish, Museums and MP3s Re: Museum interpretations (was: With great sorrow) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47601335-06B0-4DFC-A02D-020121C42F57@neurotica.com> On May 21, 2009, at 3:24 PM, Richard wrote: >> Well, if "ideology" is defined as "caring whether or not your >> stuff runs".. ;) > > So predictable and not even mildly funny. Yup. :) I'm replacing another one tomorrow. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu May 21 14:31:52 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 20:31:52 +0100 Subject: OT-ish, Museums and MP3s Re: Museum interpretations (was: With great sorrow) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1242934312.4200.114.camel@elric> On Thu, 2009-05-21 at 10:18 -0600, Richard wrote: > In article <1242899645.4200.102.camel at elric>, > Gordon JC Pearce writes: > > > There are enough CMSes out there that I'm sure you can find one that you > > like. DotNetNuke scares me a bit - from what I can tell, it's the > > frankly rather horrible PHPNuke system rewritten in .NET and only > > running on MS Windows servers - a recipe for disaster! > > I get free server space for my current site from a Windows based > outfit, so .NET is the platform of choice. If it works for you, then great. > Free trumps ideology. Ideology doesn't come into it. I use what works for me. I've never used Windows, so I stick with what I know. Gordon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu May 21 14:33:12 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 20:33:12 +0100 Subject: Does anyone have any info about 1970s-era National SemiconductorLED modules? In-Reply-To: <20090521114118.F84867@shell.lmi.net> References: , <0d5e01c9d9ea$a5054350$71ce19bb@desktaba> , <1242900990.4200.105.camel@elric> <4A1524D9.9735.FAE2508@cclist.sydex.com> <20090521114118.F84867@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1242934392.4200.115.camel@elric> On Thu, 2009-05-21 at 11:43 -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > "Hell," he said, "how am I going to operate my digital watch now?" He > wound his eyes desperately around in Ford's direction. "Fred, you're turning into a sci-fi author. Stop it." (with apologies to the late great DNA) Gordon From IanK at vulcan.com Thu May 21 14:35:23 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 12:35:23 -0700 Subject: OT-ish, Museums and MP3s Re: Museum interpretations (was: With great sorrow) In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Thu, 21 May 2009 12:24:06 -0400. Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard > Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 12:24 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: OT-ish, Museums and MP3s Re: Museum interpretations (was: > With great sorrow) > > > In article , > Dave McGuire writes: > > > Well, if "ideology" is defined as "caring whether or not your > > stuff runs".. ;) > > So predictable and not even mildly funny. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for > download > > > Legalize Adulthood! Wow, this sounds very familiar - except that the argument I'm remembering was, "REAL programmers use assembler." :-) From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu May 21 14:37:39 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 20:37:39 +0100 Subject: Does anyone have any info about 1970s-era National SemiconductorLED modules? In-Reply-To: <20090521114118.F84867@shell.lmi.net> References: , <0d5e01c9d9ea$a5054350$71ce19bb@desktaba>, <1242900990.4200.105.camel@elric> <4A1524D9.9735.FAE2508@cclist.sydex.com> <20090521114118.F84867@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4A15AD83.10603@philpem.me.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: > "Hell," he said, "how am I going to operate my digital watch now?" He > wound his eyes desperately around in Ford's direction. Don't panic. :-) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu May 21 14:39:12 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 20:39:12 +0100 Subject: Jones plugs with 40 pins In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1242934752.4200.116.camel@elric> On Thu, 2009-05-21 at 15:24 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > > They are 4 by 10 pins. I think the left row of 10 are keyed vertical, the > > next row horizontal, then vertical then horizontal, which would stop you > > plugging in upside-down. > > I think that is a non-standard one. I have sold hundreds of Jones > plugs, and have not seen that configuration. You may have to modify > something to fit. Hundreds, eh? Got any 12-pin ones to fit the back of a Trio TS-520? Gordon From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 21 14:42:22 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 12:42:22 -0700 Subject: OT-ish, Museums and MP3s Re: Museum interpretations In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Thu, 21 May 2009 12:24:06 -0400. Message-ID: <4A15AE9E.4010201@brouhaha.com> Ian King wrote: > Wow, this sounds very familiar - except that the argument I'm > remembering was, "REAL programmers use assembler." :-) REAL programmers don't NEED an assembler. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu May 21 14:44:32 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 15:44:32 -0400 Subject: OT-ish, Museums and MP3s Re: Museum interpretations (was: With great sorrow) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > So predictable and not even mildly funny. Microsoft bashing stopped being funny about 10 years ago. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 21 14:45:10 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 12:45:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Does anyone have any info about 1970s-era National SemiconductorLED modules? In-Reply-To: <1242934392.4200.115.camel@elric> References: , <0d5e01c9d9ea$a5054350$71ce19bb@desktaba> , <1242900990.4200.105.camel@elric> <4A1524D9.9735.FAE2508@cclist.sydex.com> <20090521114118.F84867@shell.lmi.net> <1242934392.4200.115.camel@elric> Message-ID: <20090521124230.Q87172@shell.lmi.net> > > "Hell," he said, "how am I going to operate my digital watch now?" He > > wound his eyes desperately around in Ford's direction. > "Fred, you're turning into a sci-fi author. Stop it." > (with apologies to the late great DNA) I screwed up and failed to include the attribution. But with THIS group, it apparently isn't needed. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu May 21 14:45:22 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 15:45:22 -0400 Subject: Jones plugs with 40 pins In-Reply-To: <1242934752.4200.116.camel@elric> References: <1242934752.4200.116.camel@elric> Message-ID: > Hundreds, eh? ?Got any 12-pin ones to fit the back of a Trio TS-520? As soon as I get 12 pinners, they sell... -- Will From arcarlini at iee.org Thu May 21 15:10:10 2009 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 21:10:10 +0100 Subject: BA123 Replacement Casters - Suitable substitute found In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ethan wrote: > * In my experience, lots of people used to sit on BA-123s, > especially people who were large enough that they should have > known better. Like Ken Olsen :-) Antonio From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 21 15:15:27 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 14:15:27 -0600 Subject: Does anyone have any info about 1970s-era National SemiconductorLED modules? In-Reply-To: <4A15AD83.10603@philpem.me.uk> References: , <0d5e01c9d9ea$a5054350$71ce19bb@desktaba>, <1242900990.4200.105.camel@elric> <4A1524D9.9735.FAE2508@cclist.sydex.com> <20090521114118.F84867@shell.lmi.net> <4A15AD83.10603@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4A15B65F.4060903@jetnet.ab.ca> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: >> "Hell," he said, "how am I going to operate my digital watch now?" He >> wound his eyes desperately around in Ford's direction. > > Don't panic. > > :-) For the life of me, I can't remember what book that came from ... I stopped reading after about the third book. Not that it makes much difference, the watch could have black emiting diodes for the display. From hachti at hachti.de Thu May 21 15:32:49 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 22:32:49 +0200 Subject: 35KSR In-Reply-To: <4A1285D7.3000106@sdu.se> References: <4A1285D7.3000106@sdu.se> Message-ID: <4A15BA71.5010709@hachti.de> Lars Hamren schrieb: >> And FYI - did you mean ASR 35? I didn't think there was a KSR version >> of the >> 35, but I could be wrong. > > I have several Bulletins on the KSR and RO versions, so it does exist. Lars, you have SEEN my 35 KSR unit! It's the one in the staircase.... 35 KSR and ASR both exist. And I'm pretty sure that RO exists, too! Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 21 15:37:46 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 16:37:46 -0400 Subject: OT-ish, Museums and MP3s Re: Museum interpretations (was: With great sorrow) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 3:22 PM, Richard wrote: > In article , > ? ?Ethan Dicks ?writes: > >> On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 12:18 PM, Richard wrote: >> > I get free server space for my current site from a Windows based >> > outfit, so .NET is the platform of choice. >> > >> > Free trumps ideology. >> >> Working in a .NET environment for free is still too expensive for me. > > I'm not telling you to use .NET, so why do you point this out? And I'm not telling you that you can't. You asserted that "free trumps ideology". I was responding with why that simplistic phrase doesn't work for me, in large part because of how you seemed to be using the word "free". You can use .NET if you like, cost or no cost to you. I don't consider only the monthly hosting charges as the be-all-end-all definition of the costs, so merely getting free monthly hosting isn't cheap enough for me to call "free". -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 21 15:43:46 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 13:43:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Does anyone have any info about 1970s-era National SemiconductorLED modules? In-Reply-To: <4A15B65F.4060903@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <0d5e01c9d9ea$a5054350$71ce19bb@desktaba>, <1242900990.4200.105.camel@elric> <4A1524D9.9735.FAE2508@cclist.sydex.com> <20090521114118.F84867@shell.lmi.net> <4A15AD83.10603@philpem.me.uk> <4A15B65F.4060903@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20090521134151.G90502@shell.lmi.net> > >> "Hell," he said, "how am I going to operate my digital watch now?" He > >> wound his eyes desperately around in Ford's direction. > > . . . > > Don't panic. > For the life of me, I can't remember what book that came from ... > I stopped reading after about the third book. Not that it makes > much difference, the watch could have black emiting diodes for > the display. The first book. The comment about thinking that digital watches are a neat idea is from one of the first paragraphs. Arthur losing his arms temporarily and Ford turning into a penguin occured when they were being picked up by The Heart Of Gold's infinite improbability drive From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 21 15:48:42 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 13:48:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT-ish, Museums and MP3s Re: Museum interpretations (was: With great sorrow) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090521134640.B90502@shell.lmi.net> > > So predictable and not even mildly funny. On Thu, 21 May 2009, William Donzelli wrote: > Microsoft bashing stopped being funny about 10 years ago. . . . but they keep creating more stuff to bash! Nevertheless, traffic on this list should stick to bashing only VINTAGE Microsoft product. The Microsoft cordless phone should qualify soon. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 21 15:50:35 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 14:50:35 -0600 Subject: OT-ish, Museums and MP3s Re: Museum interpretations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A15BE9B.6090608@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > You can use .NET if you like, cost or no cost to you. I don't > consider only the monthly hosting charges as the be-all-end-all > definition of the costs, so merely getting free monthly hosting isn't > cheap enough for me to call "free". I think being around tomorrow is the big thing. Take datasheets for example ... try and find a free one online anymore. > -ethan > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 21 16:05:25 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 17:05:25 -0400 Subject: What was the name of that company in Grandview you got some ancient gear from? Message-ID: Hi, Will, I was chatting with one of our IBM service guys today who has been with IBM for 13-14 years. I was describing the equipment that you pulled about two years ago, but I couldn't remember the company name (he was curious if he ever did any service there). Where was it? Thanks, -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 21 16:08:08 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 17:08:08 -0400 Subject: Jones plugs with 40 pins In-Reply-To: References: <1242934752.4200.116.camel@elric> Message-ID: On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 3:45 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Hundreds, eh? ?Got any 12-pin ones to fit the back of a Trio TS-520? > > As soon as I get 12 pinners, they sell... I've seen Jones plugs here and there (not that I knew what they were called before today), but what uses 12-pin plugs that's so popular? -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 21 16:09:32 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 15:09:32 -0600 Subject: OT-ish, Museums and MP3s Re: Museum interpretations (was: With great sorrow) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 21 May 2009 16:37:46 -0400. Message-ID: In article , Ethan Dicks writes: > And I'm not telling you that you can't. [...] As usual for this list, the main question (museum interpretations) is ignored, while instead I have to watch the usual suspects jump on their anti-Microsoft bandwagon. Snoooooore. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 21 16:03:41 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 22:03:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP 11/40 Unibus termination query... In-Reply-To: <4A159D53.6090500@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at May 21, 9 11:28:35 am Message-ID: > Ok -- thanks to the gracious help of several list members, I now know > where the NPG jumpers are. I checked them out on my backplane, and > they're all installed. Based on my understanding, this should be > correct for my current configuration -- the only card installed is a > 64KW memory board, which isn't a DMA device, so the NPG jumper for that > slot should still be installed, correct? That's right. A memory board doesn't use the NPG signal, so the jumper should be in place. What I would do next is grab a logic probe and the Unibus pinout (for the terminator slot) and see which grant(s) is being asserted at the terminator, if any. IIRC, the grants are active _high_, unlike most Unibus signals. Check the NPG, BG4, BG5, BG6 and BG7 signals at the M9302 terminator -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu May 21 16:21:20 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 17:21:20 -0400 Subject: Jones plugs with 40 pins In-Reply-To: References: <1242934752.4200.116.camel@elric> Message-ID: > I've seen Jones plugs here and there (not that I knew what they were > called before today), but what uses 12-pin plugs that's so popular? A fair amount of ham radio stuff. -- Will From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu May 21 16:21:13 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 18:21:13 -0300 Subject: Jones plugs with 40 pins References: <1242934752.4200.116.camel@elric> Message-ID: <128101c9da5a$20272d40$71ce19bb@desktaba> >> I think that is a non-standard one. I have sold hundreds of Jones >> plugs, and have not seen that configuration. You may have to modify >> something to fit. > Hundreds, eh? Got any 12-pin ones to fit the back of a Trio TS-520? Just for curiosity: Almost everyone here is a ham? :o) From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu May 21 16:20:04 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 18:20:04 -0300 Subject: Does anyone have any info about 1970s-era NationalSemiconductorLED modules? References: , <4A13C482.19090.A4DCF0D@cclist.sydex.com><0d5e01c9d9ea$a5054350$71ce19bb@desktaba> <1242900990.4200.105.camel@elric> Message-ID: <127601c9da5a$1d6f1220$71ce19bb@desktaba> >A friend of mine had the black one. I remember him showing my Dad and I >it, as we sat and fiddled with CB radios out in the back field. Wow, >technology has moved on... (just comparing a ?100-in-late-70s-money >4-watt CB radio the size of two bricks that guzzled AA nicads with my >?15 5-watt 70cm handheld the size of an espresso cup) Two things that amazed me in the world of amateur radio (I'm PU1BZZ, GG99vv for the curious ones): - IC706. I was amazed. HF radios for me was something akin of a big receiver (FT-101 and like). And someday a friend walks my home with a 51/4-slim-sized radio that has all HF bands AND 2m. (and in the later versions, also 6m and 70cm). I spent 10 minutes opening the radio and examining each detail. That was a shellshock. Of course, I have one. - TH-78. I had a TH28, lended from my business partner. So he came to my home with the mighty TH-78. I could even listen to cellular talking. VHF and UHF into a very small HT, a bit ugly but it had everything but the cofeemaker. Also, I have one :) And BTW, this week I got a TS-440SAT. What such a nice radio! ;o) 73s PU1BZZ Alexandre From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 21 16:33:00 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 17:33:00 -0400 Subject: OT-ish, Museums and MP3s Re: Museum interpretations (was: With great sorrow) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 5:09 PM, Richard wrote: > As usual for this list, the main question (museum interpretations) is > ignored, while instead I have to watch the usual suspects jump on > their anti-Microsoft bandwagon. ? Snoooooore. Well, if this is boring, you could try asking a Greek mailing list about how to implement mp3-based audio museum tours and saying that you can get the voice actors to do it in Turkish for free and see how long that stays on topic. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 21 17:01:12 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 18:01:12 -0400 Subject: OT-ish, Museums and MP3s Re: Museum interpretations In-Reply-To: <4A15BE9B.6090608@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4A15BE9B.6090608@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On May 21, 2009, at 4:50 PM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> You can use .NET if you like, cost or no cost to you. I don't >> consider only the monthly hosting charges as the be-all-end-all >> definition of the costs, so merely getting free monthly hosting isn't >> cheap enough for me to call "free". > > I think being around tomorrow is the big thing. Take datasheets > for example ... try and find a free one online anymore. Datasheets? As in component datasheets? What are you smoking, Ben? I don't think I've ever seen anyone charge for them. I have nearly three thousand datasheets as PDFs in my archive, all of which were free. There are, of course, those services which sell free things (including datasheets) to people. Their customers must be pretty gullible. But every component I've ever needed a datasheet for, I've been able to find as a free PDF with little or no difficulty, usually from the manufacturer. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu May 21 17:02:31 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 18:02:31 -0400 Subject: Jones plugs with 40 pins In-Reply-To: <128101c9da5a$20272d40$71ce19bb@desktaba> References: <1242934752.4200.116.camel@elric> <128101c9da5a$20272d40$71ce19bb@desktaba> Message-ID: > ? Just for curiosity: Almost everyone here is a ham? :o) Please, not another callsign check in. We just had one not long ago. -- Will From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 21 17:26:51 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 16:26:51 -0600 Subject: OT-ish, Museums and MP3s Re: Museum interpretations In-Reply-To: References: <4A15BE9B.6090608@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4A15D52B.7020101@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > There are, of course, those services which sell free things (including > datasheets) to people. Their customers must be pretty gullible. But > every component I've ever needed a datasheet for, I've been able to find > as a free PDF with little or no difficulty, usually from the manufacturer. That is my catch 22 ... If I knew the manufacturer ... then I could download them. My favorite supplier tends list things like ... 74ls00 0.10 or 32kx8 ram 100ns 3.95. Ben. > -Dave > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 21 17:42:18 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 15:42:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT-ish, Museums and MP3s Re: Museum interpretations (was: With great sorrow) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090521153905.G93306@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 5:09 PM, Richard wrote: > As usual for this list, the main question (museum interpretations) is > ignored, while instead I have to watch the usual suspects jump on > their anti-Microsoft bandwagon. ? Snoooooore. D'ya suppose that the topic drift away from "museum interpretations" might have been helped along by somebody making a "free trumps ideology" remark about .net ? From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 21 18:19:44 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 16:19:44 -0700 Subject: Datasheet: Yamaha YM7109C? Message-ID: <4A157F20.863.110ED184@cclist.sydex.com> For those of you with big datasheet collections, does anyone have data for a Yamaha YM7109C? A pinout would be sufficient. 40 pin DIP- -it seems to be some sort of DSP. Circa 1990. TIA --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu May 21 20:42:40 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 21:42:40 -0400 Subject: Datasheet: Yamaha YM7109C? In-Reply-To: <4A157F20.863.110ED184@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4A157F20.863.110ED184@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > For those of you with big datasheet collections, does anyone have > data for a Yamaha YM7109C? ?A pinout would be sufficient. ?40 pin DIP- > -it seems to be some sort of DSP. ?Circa 1990. DSP, for sound generation? Most Yamaha chips are undocumented. -- Will From eric940 at gmail.com Thu May 21 21:16:12 2009 From: eric940 at gmail.com (eric) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 19:16:12 -0700 Subject: Recent ASR33 teletype sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 2:44 PM, Richard wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=360154169108 > > Wow. ?I'm used to these going for $200-500 in good cosmetic condition > and working order, but this one maxed out higher than I expected at $1026. Final eBay auction price aside, a beautiful piece of machinery. I suppose some folks on this list own Teletypes in similar, almost 'virgin' shape. Could this have been a restoration project? Could it have been kept in a relatively "favorable" environment for many years? Hard to say, I'd imagine, w/out asking the original owner. Seems to have been apparently sold via proxy through an eBay reseller service.) The buyer's caveat here is "Powers on, unable to test" in the auction description. However, I'm sure it could be restored to working condition, if it is not already. -eric From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu May 21 22:18:32 2009 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 22:18:32 -0500 Subject: OT-ish, Museums and MP3s Re: Museum interpretations (was: With great sorrow) References: Message-ID: <014d01c9da8b$fd322100$c900a8c0@JWEST> Ethan wrote... I don't consider only the monthly hosting charges as the be-all-end-all definition of the costs, so merely getting free monthly hosting isn't cheap enough for me to call "free". But the classiccmp server..... ;) Come on folks, we're not really going to go there are we? (there being an extended microsoft sucks/doesntSuck discussion). From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 21 22:15:02 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 20:15:02 -0700 Subject: Datasheet: Yamaha YM7109C? In-Reply-To: References: <4A157F20.863.110ED184@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4A15B646.28817.11E63C1F@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 May 2009 at 21:42, William Donzelli wrote: > > For those of you with big datasheet collections, does anyone have > > data for a Yamaha YM7109C? ?A pinout would be sufficient. ?40 pin > > DIP- -it seems to be some sort of DSP. ?Circa 1990. > > DSP, for sound generation? Most Yamaha chips are undocumented. Nope--DSP for FAX modem. Mentioned in July 1990, EDN: "Compatible with the company's widely used YM7109 chip, the YM7109E fax modem IC features enhancements such as error-correction and power- down modes, as well as synchronization to an external clock. The CMOS IC, which is targeted for use in personal-computer fax boards and portable-fax applications, offers 9600-bps binary file transfers and supports voice recording and playback." I figure that if someone says the chip is "widely used", someone must at least have a pinout... --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 21 22:45:41 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 23:45:41 -0400 Subject: OT-ish, Museums and MP3s Re: Museum interpretations In-Reply-To: <4A15D52B.7020101@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4A15BE9B.6090608@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A15D52B.7020101@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On May 21, 2009, at 6:26 PM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> There are, of course, those services which sell free things >> (including datasheets) to people. Their customers must be pretty >> gullible. But every component I've ever needed a datasheet for, >> I've been able to find as a free PDF with little or no difficulty, >> usually from the manufacturer. > > That is my catch 22 ... If I knew the manufacturer ... then I could > download them. > My favorite supplier tends list things like ... 74ls00 0.10 or > 32kx8 ram 100ns 3.95. Oh good grief. Pretty much any manufacturer's datasheets will be fine for parts as standardized as those. Functionality, pinouts, DC specs, even timing parameters will be very close if not identical. Just google "74LS00 datasheet" or "62256 datasheet" and you'll be fine. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 21 23:17:55 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 22:17:55 -0600 Subject: OT-ish, Museums and MP3s Re: Museum interpretations In-Reply-To: References: <4A15BE9B.6090608@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A15D52B.7020101@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4A162773.5030402@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > Oh good grief. Pretty much any manufacturer's datasheets will be fine > for parts as standardized as those. Functionality, pinouts, DC specs, > even timing parameters will be very close if not identical. Just google > "74LS00 datasheet" or "62256 datasheet" and you'll be fine. That is why I am using them. :) > -Dave Grumbles at the lack of 9 bit wide ram chips ... No matter how you look at it any kind of 18 bit computer has power compared to a 16 bit or less cpu. PS. Now you know what kind of computer I am designing, but this is off topic since only 1 off does not count as a classic computer unless it tubes or flip/chips[1] used. [1] generic module rather than DEC's product. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 21 23:23:50 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 00:23:50 -0400 Subject: OT-ish, Museums and MP3s Re: Museum interpretations In-Reply-To: <4A162773.5030402@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4A15BE9B.6090608@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A15D52B.7020101@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A162773.5030402@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <131A0436-2511-468D-995B-BA633296FCB4@neurotica.com> On May 22, 2009, at 12:17 AM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> Oh good grief. Pretty much any manufacturer's datasheets will >> be fine for parts as standardized as those. Functionality, >> pinouts, DC specs, even timing parameters will be very close if >> not identical. Just google "74LS00 datasheet" or "62256 >> datasheet" and you'll be fine. > > That is why I am using them. :) ;) > Grumbles at the lack of 9 bit wide ram chips ... No matter how > you look at it > any kind of 18 bit computer has power compared to a 16 bit or less > cpu. > PS. Now you know what kind of computer I am designing, but this is > off topic since > only 1 off does not count as a classic computer unless it tubes or > flip/chips[1] used. What sort of density are you looking for? I've seen some really nice 16Kx1 SRAM chips made by Inmos. Or you could implement a DRAM controller in your FPGA and do it that way, with 1-bit-wide DRAM chips. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From tiggerlasv at aim.com Thu May 21 23:24:26 2009 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 00:24:26 -0400 Subject: BA123's as furniture. . . Message-ID: <8CBA8AC53B1B0B3-B34-309B@webmail-db06.sysops.aol.com> On Thu May 21 11:52:08, Ethan Dicks wrote - > * In my experience, lots of people used to sit on BA-123s, especially > people who were large enough that they should have known better. While I do agree that they should not be used as seating, they do make nice occasional tables, nightstands, and end tables. ;-) T From silent700 at gmail.com Thu May 21 23:32:55 2009 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 23:32:55 -0500 Subject: BA123's as furniture. . . In-Reply-To: <8CBA8AC53B1B0B3-B34-309B@webmail-db06.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBA8AC53B1B0B3-B34-309B@webmail-db06.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730905212132k6a75d0b2naa2d8f76473081a9@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 11:24 PM, wrote: > While I do agree that they should not be used as seating, > they do make nice occasional tables, nightstands, and end tables. ? ;-) That's what mine is doing now, aside from housing a MicroVax II that I need to get around to testing one of these days. It's also got the crumbling caster problem, and has left big black streaks on my wood floors :( From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 21 23:45:06 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 22:45:06 -0600 Subject: OT-ish, Museums and MP3s Re: Museum interpretations In-Reply-To: <131A0436-2511-468D-995B-BA633296FCB4@neurotica.com> References: <4A15BE9B.6090608@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A15D52B.7020101@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A162773.5030402@jetnet.ab.ca> <131A0436-2511-468D-995B-BA633296FCB4@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A162DD2.7060404@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > > What sort of density are you looking for? I've seen some really nice > 16Kx1 SRAM chips made by Inmos. Or you could implement a DRAM > controller in your FPGA and do it that way, with 1-bit-wide DRAM chips. I am looking at about 32K 18 bit word memory on small single board computer, some thing around the size of a PDP 8/e in functionality but 18 rather than 12 bits. I am looking to add modern features (1968 ish) like character addressable memory, Stack and Index registers as well as # data. Memory, Uart and CPU I can get on one PCB as well as simple IDE interface. The other PCB will be the 18 bit front panel with the MAR,MBR and AC displayed connected via ribbon cable. Ben. > -Dave Ps. Since this is a small computer, hardware support of floating point is NOT a option. :) From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu May 21 23:47:10 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 21:47:10 -0700 Subject: BA123's as furniture. . . In-Reply-To: <51ea77730905212132k6a75d0b2naa2d8f76473081a9@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CBA8AC53B1B0B3-B34-309B@webmail-db06.sysops.aol.com> <51ea77730905212132k6a75d0b2naa2d8f76473081a9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 11:32 PM -0500 5/21/09, Jason T wrote: >On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 11:24 PM, wrote: >> While I do agree that they should not be used as seating, >> they do make nice occasional tables, nightstands, and end tables. ;-) > >That's what mine is doing now, aside from housing a MicroVax II that I >need to get around to testing one of these days. It's also got the >crumbling caster problem, and has left big black streaks on my wood >floors :( The one housing my PDP-11/73 spent time doing dual duty as a PDP-11 and Nightstand/endtable before I got married. Now it's just a computer. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 22 00:06:57 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 22:06:57 -0700 Subject: OT-ish, Museums and MP3s Re: Museum interpretations In-Reply-To: <131A0436-2511-468D-995B-BA633296FCB4@neurotica.com> References: , <4A162773.5030402@jetnet.ab.ca>, <131A0436-2511-468D-995B-BA633296FCB4@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A15D081.3385.124CB14F@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 May 2009 at 0:23, Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 22, 2009, at 12:17 AM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > > Grumbles at the lack of 9 bit wide ram chips ... No matter how > > you look at it any kind of 18 bit computer has power compared to a > > 16 bit or less cpu. PS. Now you know what kind of computer I am > > designing, but this is off topic since only 1 off does not count as > > a classic computer unless it tubes or flip/chips[1] used. > > What sort of density are you looking for? I've seen some really > nice 16Kx1 SRAM chips made by Inmos. Or you could implement a DRAM > controller in your FPGA and do it that way, with 1-bit-wide DRAM > chips. Got a bunch of the Inmos chips, if you're interested. I'm sure you know that you can get modern DRAM in x72, x36 and x18 configurations quite readily. Heh, I remember needing a very fast SRAM for a bankswitching memory controller back in the 70's. I used a Fairchild 64x9 bipolar SRAM, grumbling that what I really needed was a x8. The bugger drank about a watt. I think they were available in 256x9 also. At that time, the speeds were considered to be very fast (60 nsec), but would be laughable now. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 22 00:56:36 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 23:56:36 -0600 Subject: OT-ish, Museums and MP3s Re: Museum interpretations In-Reply-To: <4A15D081.3385.124CB14F@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4A162773.5030402@jetnet.ab.ca>, <131A0436-2511-468D-995B-BA633296FCB4@neurotica.com> <4A15D081.3385.124CB14F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A163E94.90509@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 22 May 2009 at 0:23, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On May 22, 2009, at 12:17 AM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > >>> Grumbles at the lack of 9 bit wide ram chips ... No matter how >>> you look at it any kind of 18 bit computer has power compared to a >>> 16 bit or less cpu. PS. Now you know what kind of computer I am >>> designing, but this is off topic since only 1 off does not count as >>> a classic computer unless it tubes or flip/chips[1] used. >> What sort of density are you looking for? I've seen some really >> nice 16Kx1 SRAM chips made by Inmos. Or you could implement a DRAM >> controller in your FPGA and do it that way, with 1-bit-wide DRAM >> chips. > > Got a bunch of the Inmos chips, if you're interested. > > I'm sure you know that you can get modern DRAM in x72, x36 and x18 > configurations quite readily. I suspect if I dig hard I can find 9 bit wide static ram of some kind, but with the low cost of 32KBx8 ram I can waste 7 out of 8 bits. I dont' need a tiny PCB so I have room to use for that. My front panel needs a bit of work so it is not too wide, so hopefully both PCB's can be about 11"x8". > Heh, I remember needing a very fast SRAM for a bankswitching memory > controller back in the 70's. I used a Fairchild 64x9 bipolar SRAM, > grumbling that what I really needed was a x8. The bugger drank about > a watt. I think they were available in 256x9 also. At that time, > the speeds were considered to be very fast (60 nsec), but would be > laughable now. While memory from the 70's time frame is not missed unless you need spares, what surprized me is all the odd custom chips that came out about that time for bit slice and fancy control logic. Custom mask programed roms too, but most of what I noticed from that era is surplus calculator stuff. Ben. > --Chuck > > From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Fri May 22 00:59:22 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 22:59:22 -0700 Subject: sdk 2920 References: <000701c9d84c$32823d00$0201a8c0@hal9000> <002601c9d8c9$8d933230$0201a8c0@hal9000> <4A1442BC.3070609@dunnington.plus.com> <4A147F3D.E79B6987@cs.ubc.ca> <4A14F519.F588ED32@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <000f01c9daa2$74407bf0$0201a8c0@hal9000> Thanks for the tip. The guy was delusional if he thought he could get $300 for that setup. It ( 2920 ) was one ( of many ) of Intel's big screw-ups. As a DSP chip, all you could do was download your "stuff" into the EPROM and wiggle the input with an analog input and observe the analog output. No way to see inside and what was happening inside the chip. Made development and troubleshooting a real bitch ( which probably speaks volumes for its success in the market ). ----- Original Message ----- From: "dwight elvey" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 6:50 AM Subject: sdk 2920 Hi I generally don't post about things on ebay but this is a rare one. Intel SDK-2920 It is #270390988255 As I recall the chip was Intel's first and last attempt at a DSP chip. It was EPROM and processor in one. Dwight From bqt at softjar.se Thu May 21 13:45:13 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 20:45:13 +0200 Subject: PDP 11/40 Unibus termination query... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A15A139.1000300@softjar.se> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 9:06 AM, Tom Uban wrote: >>> >> I'll check the NPG jumpers -- here's a stupid question -- how do I find >>> >> where they're supposed to be? ?I've looked all over for a simple diagram >>> >> showing which pins are CA1 and CB1, but I'm not finding them... >> > >> > The backplane information is clearly described in the Peripherals Handbook. >> > If you don't have a copy and you intend to work with these machines, then >> > you need to get yourself a copy. > > Having worked with these machines a lot over the years, I can > personally recommend having the right handbooks on hand when > configuring things or diagnosing problems - it will save a lot of time > and grief. Back in the day, we always had them and we used them > frequently. > >> > The 'C' in CXX is the slot... > > Another way to see is to look at a dual-height Unibus grant card and > note which pair of pins is shorted together on the "C" finger (the one > that only has one pair of pins shorted, not the one that has 3 pairs > of pins shorted). If you don't _have_ a dual-height grant card, you > are going to have to get very familiar with where the NPR pins are > because you are going to be wrapping and unwrapping that jumper on the > backplane every time you insert or remove cards. Those dual height grant cards are excellent for people who aren't overly sure and experienced with this, since they are hard to insert the wrong way as well. So you both can check which pins should be shorted, and you don't have to fiddle with the NPG line. It is also not totally uncommon for people to also insert the grant cards reversed... But you don't need to remove the NPG wire every time you insert a card. You only need to do it for cards that do DMA. By the way, Tom Uban made a great ascii chart of a backplane slot. That should be useful for lots of people who play with DEC equipment, for the same notation is used on all older DEC backplanes, not only Unibus. It's actually this backplane format that defines a flip chip. (Most people errounosly seem to think that the bus grant cards are called flip chip, they are just one example of a flip chip.) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From eric at brouhaha.com Fri May 22 01:46:15 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 23:46:15 -0700 Subject: sdk 2920 In-Reply-To: <000f01c9daa2$74407bf0$0201a8c0@hal9000> References: <000701c9d84c$32823d00$0201a8c0@hal9000> <002601c9d8c9$8d933230$0201a8c0@hal9000> <4A1442BC.3070609@dunnington.plus.com> <4A147F3D.E79B6987@cs.ubc.ca> <4A14F519.F588ED32@cs.ubc.ca> <000f01c9daa2$74407bf0$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <4A164A37.6020703@brouhaha.com> Scanning wrote: > Thanks for the tip. The guy was delusional if he thought he could get $300 > for that setup. It ( 2920 ) was one ( of many ) of Intel's big screw-ups. As > a DSP chip, all you could do was download your "stuff" into the EPROM and > wiggle the input with an analog input and observe the analog output. No way > to see inside and what was happening inside the chip. Made development and > troubleshooting a real bitch ( which probably speaks volumes for its success > in the market ). > I disagree about that being the problem, as basically all microcontrollers were that way at the time. In fact, many microcontrollers didn't even *have* EPROM versions, so development for those required an expensive in-circuit emulator. The 2920 gave you the choice: do many iterations with the EPROM programmer and eraser, *or* buy the ICE. In my not so humble opinion, the reason that the 2920 didn't catch on but the TI TMS32010 did is that the 2920 didn't have hardware multiply and accumulate, so it had very low performance for common DSP tasks such as digital filters and FFT. Another problem Intel has had from 1980 to the present is that while they want to play in multiple markets, it is almost always the case that they make the most money per wafer by making mainstream processors. That results in few wafers being devoted to other products, which is why they seem to have such on-again-off-again support for embedded processors. On the other hand, that worked to their advantage when DRAM prices dropped through the floor in the mid-1980s, but the managers didn't have the balls to drop the DRAM product line. Their normal method of allocating wafer starts naturally resulted in few wafers for DRAM, minimizing their losses on it until management had the sense to drop it entirely. Eric From frustum at pacbell.net Fri May 22 01:51:34 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 01:51:34 -0500 Subject: 18b computers (was: something much longer and unrelated) In-Reply-To: <4A162773.5030402@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4A15BE9B.6090608@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A15D52B.7020101@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A162773.5030402@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4A164B76.6080406@pacbell.net> [changed the subject line due to drift] bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: ... > Grumbles at the lack of 9 bit wide ram chips If solving that problem is a hurdle, you have much bigger problems that you don't know about yet. :-) >... No matter how you look at it > any kind of 18 bit computer has power compared to a 16 bit or less cpu. I think you are in love with the idea more than an actual computer. It is trivial to imagine an anemic 18b computer that doesn't compare well to a decent 16 bitter. I worked on/helped design a CPU that used 9b bytes, with a 72b word size. We sold a few million chips, which in the market we were in was a miserable failure (this was in the mid 90s). The company was Chromatic Research, and the first chip was called MPACT 1. That was followed up a couple years later with MPACT 2. The 9 bittedness came about because our memory system was based on Rambus memory. We were one of the early adopters, due to the fact that Chromatic Research and Rambus had a common founder, Mike Farmwald. At the time, all Rambus parts were x9, so the 9th bit was supposedly "free" and we might was well take advantage of it. Most operations had an option of operating on eight 9b fields, four 18b fields, or two 36b fields. The video system had a 666 pixel format. MPEG en/decode was viewed as an important (primary even) feature, and forming differences of two 8b components leads to a signed 9b number, so it seemed like a good idea at the time. The 9b aspect was a real burden that made many different aspects of the design more complicated, sometimes in small ways, sometimes in large ways. The main nice thing about it was it did give a bit of luxury to encoding the instruction set. One of the bigger pains caused by the 9b factor was that Rambus memory carried a huge premium over regular DRAM, but it wasn't possible to design out the Rambus interface. Another problem caused by the x9 organization was that SIMD partitioning of the shifter and generating the corresponding control terms is vastly simpler for a power of two width than for one that is a multiple of 9. In the end, the 9b aspect was a minor irritation, and the company crashed down for a host of other much more significant reasons. Still, my point is that having been there, 18b isn't somehow magically better than 16b, and comes with its own drawbacks. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri May 22 02:41:24 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 09:41:24 +0200 Subject: BA123's as furniture. . . In-Reply-To: <8CBA8AC53B1B0B3-B34-309B@webmail-db06.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBA8AC53B1B0B3-B34-309B@webmail-db06.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <20090522094124.f739beec.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 22 May 2009 00:24:26 -0400 tiggerlasv at aim.com wrote: > > * In my experience, lots of people used to sit on BA-123s, > > especially people who were large enough that they should have known > > better. > While I do agree that they should not be used as seating, > they do make nice occasional tables, nightstands, and end > tables. ;-) Please note 8. in the "Top 10 Signs that You are a VAX Geek" below. At this verry moment I am sitting at a desk build out of a Sun 3/260 and a BA440 DSSI disk box. My work bench in the machie room is supported by a VAX4000-200 and a HP900-750. Brian Chase, bdc at world.std.com 05 Oct 1997 __________________________________________________________________ Key traits identifying individuals tendencies towards abnormal preoccupation with VAX computer systems __________________________________________________________________ 9. When talking about building software you make reference to compilation times in weeks and days instead of minutes and seconds. 8. You stopped purchasing new furniture when you realized that your computers work just as well. 7. Your electricity bill is more than your monthly rent payment. 6. You've been hospitalized with muscle strain injuries after performing some routine hardware maintenance on your computer. 5. You don't have an SO, but it's okay because your computer keeps you warm at night. 4. While doing laundry, you occassionaly have a mental lapse and try to wash your socks and underwear in your 11/750. 3. Friends who visit you want to know why there are old-time movie reels stuck on your refridgerator(s). 2. Your house is pleasantly warm in the dead of winter, even with the air conditioning turned all the way up. 1. The lights in your home dim or flicker when you reboot. 0. It doesn't matter to you if someone else's computer is faster because you know your system could smash theirs flat if it fell over on it. And always remember, no matter what anyone else says. Bigger *IS* better. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 22 02:59:01 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 01:59:01 -0600 Subject: 18b computers In-Reply-To: <4A164B76.6080406@pacbell.net> References: <4A15BE9B.6090608@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A15D52B.7020101@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A162773.5030402@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A164B76.6080406@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <4A165B45.9030902@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Battle wrote: > [changed the subject line due to drift] > In the end, the 9b aspect was a minor irritation, and the company > crashed down for a host of other much more significant reasons. Still, > my point is that having been there, 18b isn't somehow magically better > than 16b, and comes with its own drawbacks. Well this is new 18 bit computer I have heard of ... I guess more on topic than say a PC clone. > > From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 22 03:39:47 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 01:39:47 -0700 Subject: 18b computers In-Reply-To: <4A165B45.9030902@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <4A164B76.6080406@pacbell.net>, <4A165B45.9030902@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4A160263.20652.130F96DD@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 May 2009 at 1:59, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Well this is new 18 bit computer I have heard of ... I guess more on > topic than say a PC clone. > > The A and B registers in a CDC 6000 series machine were 18 bits (CPU word was 60 bits). Eventually, this created problems, when more than 128KW was available on a CPU (lots of code used signed addresses to signify this and that. Conditional branches were performed on the sign or contents of a register, not on a condition code, so it could get a little tricky doing 18-bit unsigned comparisons). There were, however, plenty of 36 bit mainframes from various manufacturers. --Chuck From hamren at sdu.se Fri May 22 03:46:11 2009 From: hamren at sdu.se (Lars Hamren) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 10:46:11 +0200 Subject: 35 KSR In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A166653.1000006@sdu.se> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Lars Hamren schrieb: >>> And FYI - did you mean ASR 35? I didn't think there was a KSR version of the >>> 35, but I could be wrong. >> >> I have several Bulletins on the KSR and RO versions, so it does exist. > Lars, you have SEEN my 35 KSR unit! It's the one in the staircase.... I probably did, but memory fails me. I will contact you off-list about it. /Lars Hamr?n From spedraja at ono.com Fri May 22 06:51:57 2009 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 13:51:57 +0200 Subject: Altos 686 Message-ID: Hello. I have one Altos 686 with Xenix 3.2 in working state. I should like to install on it one C compiler and eventually the Ryan-McFarland Cobol for this platform if available. I remember something about IMD image disks available in some place in the Internet but I don't remember where. All help is welcome Kind Regards Sergio From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri May 22 08:18:58 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 08:18:58 -0500 Subject: Jones plugs with 40 pins In-Reply-To: References: <1242934752.4200.116.camel@elric> <128101c9da5a$20272d40$71ce19bb@desktaba> Message-ID: <4A16A642.4090101@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> Just for curiosity: Almost everyone here is a ham? :o) > > Please, not another callsign check in. We just had one not long ago. That made me chuckle. We must be overdue a car thread by now though, and I've not seen a gun discussion on here in years... :-) cheers Jules From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Fri May 22 08:44:14 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 09:44:14 -0400 Subject: Jones plugs with 40 pins In-Reply-To: <4A16A642.4090101@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200905221344.n4MDiMng028509@keith.ezwind.net> On Fri, 22 May 2009 08:18:58 -0500, Jules Richardson wrote: >That made me chuckle. We must be overdue a car thread by now though, and I've >not seen a gun discussion on here in years... :-) Well in that case here is an interesting project .... http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/06/computercontrolled_airsof.html The other Bob, now ducking for cover :) From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri May 22 08:56:41 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 06:56:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Unibus SMD controller Message-ID: <985566.55997.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I've been using this Vax 11/750 as a table for far too long. It lives in the collection, sure, amongst the PDP-11 and the Primes. But it really never gets plugged in, it just sits there with a couple terminals sitting on it, and occasionally providing me a place to lay out a manual or something. The machine works. But I can't do a bloody thing with it, because... I have no disk controller. So - does anyone happen to have an extra Unibus SMD controller they would part with? I've got plenty of SMD drives - a couple of these Seagate Sabres would work real nice for this little Vaxling. -Ian From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Fri May 22 09:26:05 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 15:26:05 +0100 Subject: Jones plugs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In case anyone else wants the measurements of the Jones plugs, the sockets are 35mm by 78mm or in imperial, 1 3/8 by 3 1/16. The pin orientations were as I described, alternate rows of horizontal and vertical. Roger Holmes. From imsaicollector at yahoo.com Fri May 22 09:37:00 2009 From: imsaicollector at yahoo.com (Michael Hart) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 07:37:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Altos 686 Message-ID: <581472.79743.qm@web57005.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Why don't you just down load GCC and install that? --- On Fri, 5/22/09, SPC wrote: From: SPC Subject: Altos 686 To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Friday, May 22, 2009, 7:51 AM Hello. I have one Altos 686 with Xenix 3.2 in working state. I should like to install on it one C compiler and eventually the Ryan-McFarland Cobol for this platform if available. I remember something about IMD image disks available in some place in the Internet but I don't remember where. All help is welcome Kind Regards Sergio From bqt at softjar.se Fri May 22 02:50:49 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 09:50:49 +0200 Subject: Microsoft bashing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A165959.2020300@softjar.se> William Donzelli wrote: >> > So predictable and not even mildly funny. > > Microsoft bashing stopped being funny about 10 years ago. Ever considered that some people are bashing Microsoft for other reasons than tryiong to be funny? Such as: There are actually legitimate concerns about the quality of their products. And that deserves to be repeated, and pointed out time and time again, even if some don't think it's funny. Because without bringing up the actual problems, their products would probably be even more dominant, even when the problems sometimes are really serious. Now - some people claim that there are no problems any more. Good for them. Others don't have the same experience/luck. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From jws at jwsss.com Fri May 22 03:05:53 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 01:05:53 -0700 Subject: BA123's as furniture. . . In-Reply-To: <20090522094124.f739beec.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <8CBA8AC53B1B0B3-B34-309B@webmail-db06.sysops.aol.com> <20090522094124.f739beec.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4A165CE1.4010007@jwsss.com> Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Fri, 22 May 2009 00:24:26 -0400 > tiggerlasv at aim.com wrote: > > >>> * In my experience, lots of people used to sit on BA-123s, >>> especially people who were large enough that they should have known >>> better. >>> >> While I do agree that they should not be used as seating, >> they do make nice occasional tables, nightstands, and end >> tables. ;-) >> > Please note 8. in the "Top 10 Signs that You are a VAX Geek" below. > > At this verry moment I am sitting at a desk build out of a Sun > 3/260 and a BA440 DSSI disk box. My work bench in the machie room is supported by a VAX4000-200 and a HP900-750. > > When my wife moved in to my house (newly wed) in 1993, I had a running PDP 11/15 as the endtable in my living room. She didn't see the fireplace till we moved out, had a set of racks in front of it. Jim From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri May 22 09:40:46 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 07:40:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs Message-ID: <462053.13883.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> On the subject of Jones plugs, What about the smaller types? Some video equipment uses an 8 pin plug, but it's not very big, only about an inch wide and a half inch tall, two pins tall by four pins wide. This is used for RGB video on some stuff I have here, and it would be real handy to have the correct plug to fit it. Is this a jones plug? -Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 22 10:10:48 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 11:10:48 -0400 Subject: Microsoft bashing In-Reply-To: <4A165959.2020300@softjar.se> References: <4A165959.2020300@softjar.se> Message-ID: <5C905B32-3CC2-406E-8B6A-C8767BB880ED@neurotica.com> On May 22, 2009, at 3:50 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> > So predictable and not even mildly funny. >> Microsoft bashing stopped being funny about 10 years ago. > > Ever considered that some people are bashing Microsoft for other > reasons than tryiong to be funny? > Such as: There are actually legitimate concerns about the quality > of their products. > > And that deserves to be repeated, and pointed out time and time > again, even if some don't think it's funny. Because without > bringing up the actual problems, their products would probably be > even more dominant, even when the problems sometimes are really > serious. > > Now - some people claim that there are no problems any more. Good > for them. Others don't have the same experience/luck. Agree 100%. Who has the time and energy to bash for the sake of bashing? I bash them because I've seen too many failures, too much downtime, and too many companies pushed to the brink of destruction due to this stuff. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri May 22 10:17:58 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 11:17:58 -0400 Subject: Microsoft bashing In-Reply-To: <4A165959.2020300@softjar.se> References: <4A165959.2020300@softjar.se> Message-ID: > Ever considered that some people are bashing Microsoft for other reasons > than tryiong to be funny? > Such as: There are actually legitimate concerns about the quality of their > products. And *nix/OSX/VMS/zOS/zVM are free of quality defects? Where are the cheap shots against these? The cheap shots we hear over and over again... And do not come back with something like "well, Microsoft deserves them because they have way more defects". Plenty of people use Microsoft products - .NET included - and seem to do just fine. You must realize that there is a big difference between a legitimate complaint and bashing. The latter wore out its welcome with me years ago. The last funny thing related to Microsoft bashing I saw was Kai's form letter responses to bashing on this list, in the early days. -- Will From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri May 22 10:50:10 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 11:50:10 -0400 Subject: Microsoft bashing In-Reply-To: <5C905B32-3CC2-406E-8B6A-C8767BB880ED@neurotica.com> References: <4A165959.2020300@softjar.se> <5C905B32-3CC2-406E-8B6A-C8767BB880ED@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A16C9B2.90501@atarimuseum.com> I like MS products, I use Office, Visio and then other 3rd party products like Photoshop, Acrobat and some CAD/CAM tools... I've tried Linux offerings and while similar, to be honest, the MS stuff is just more polished and better... What I have a problem with is everytime MS see's fresh meat -- Like Netscape, or Java, or countless other superb, ahead of their time products --- Microsoft has to come in and steam roller the competition, add it integrated (supposedly) into Windows and then crush the 3rd party... now I'm all for competition and Free Market, that is all well and good... however, MS is spread too far, too wide and has too many of its own housekeeping and debugging issue's to deal with on its already top heavy line of products. They need to correct their own products before going out to assimilate and dominate other products and hurt competition. I give Windows credit --- yes, Mac's are better in so many ways, but you have to think -- well - Apple's and Oranges, except Apple's are in fact Apple's, the hardware is tightly controlled to a very narrow set of hardware models, which is a great idea. PC's on the other hand --- the "Oranges" --- well its more like a fruit smoothie... millions upon millions of possible variants of firmware, chipsets, memory, controller cards, video cards, network cards, sound cards, game cards, USB cards, Firewire Cards, on and on and on... Windows runs on ALL of that... now yes, someone will chime in "Well so can Linux too..." Geez, Linux run's on just about anything other there - it is a truly incredible OS, hands down --- but it is not as user friendly as Windows of Mac OSX, it is still a more tech-savvy based OS, great for servers and embedded devices for its speed, resilience and stability, on the desktop front - it is making monumental steps forward, but it's not there and while Open Office is great- MS office is still more polished and better, while Gimp is good, Photoshop is far superior --- yes you could run Wine and VMware - but again, but to being tech-savvy to do... Bottom line, we've all had our frustrating shares of Blue Screens, device drivers that just don't want to load or cooperate, MS blindly releasing an OS "they" wanted, but no one else did = VISTA (spit on it - tooey!!!) but they've done some good, great and not so great things and despite all of what they do wrong, they still manage to do the right things in the right places. Still like Mac's better though :-) Curt Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 22, 2009, at 3:50 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>>> > So predictable and not even mildly funny. >>> Microsoft bashing stopped being funny about 10 years ago. >> >> Ever considered that some people are bashing Microsoft for other >> reasons than tryiong to be funny? >> Such as: There are actually legitimate concerns about the quality of >> their products. >> >> And that deserves to be repeated, and pointed out time and time >> again, even if some don't think it's funny. Because without bringing >> up the actual problems, their products would probably be even more >> dominant, even when the problems sometimes are really serious. >> >> Now - some people claim that there are no problems any more. Good for >> them. Others don't have the same experience/luck. > > Agree 100%. Who has the time and energy to bash for the sake of > bashing? I bash them because I've seen too many failures, too much > downtime, and too many companies pushed to the brink of destruction > due to this stuff. > > -Dave > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri May 22 10:52:32 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 16:52:32 +0100 Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: <462053.13883.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <462053.13883.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A16CA40.4000008@dunnington.plus.com> On 22/05/2009 15:40, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > On the subject of Jones plugs, What about the smaller types? Some > video equipment uses an 8 pin plug, but it's not very big, only about > an inch wide and a half inch tall, two pins tall by four pins wide. > This is used for RGB video on some stuff I have here, and it would be > real handy to have the correct plug to fit it. Is this a jones plug? I have a couple of monitors that use those (they have round pins, not flat or rectangular), and have always believed they're called Honda connectors. Of course that could be wrong, and could explain why I have such a hard time finding them! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From frustum at pacbell.net Fri May 22 11:00:04 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 11:00:04 -0500 Subject: Microsoft bashing In-Reply-To: <4A16C9B2.90501@atarimuseum.com> References: <4A165959.2020300@softjar.se> <5C905B32-3CC2-406E-8B6A-C8767BB880ED@neurotica.com> <4A16C9B2.90501@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4A16CC04.9060809@pacbell.net> Didn't anybody read Jay's memo on the subject? It is a fun debate to have -- on the appropriate forum. This one is about vintage computers. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri May 22 11:35:07 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 12:35:07 -0400 Subject: Microsoft bashing In-Reply-To: <4A16CC04.9060809@pacbell.net> References: <4A165959.2020300@softjar.se> <5C905B32-3CC2-406E-8B6A-C8767BB880ED@neurotica.com> <4A16C9B2.90501@atarimuseum.com> <4A16CC04.9060809@pacbell.net> Message-ID: > Didn't anybody read Jay's memo on the subject? > > It is a fun debate to have -- on the appropriate forum. ?This one is about > vintage computers. My point is that people the constantly bash Microsoft are like 3rd graders that keep telling the same damn knock knock joke all day. I have no further comments. -- Will From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 22 11:35:45 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 09:35:45 -0700 Subject: Microsoft bashing In-Reply-To: References: <4A165959.2020300@softjar.se> Message-ID: At 11:17 AM -0400 5/22/09, William Donzelli wrote: > > Ever considered that some people are bashing Microsoft for other reasons >> than tryiong to be funny? >> Such as: There are actually legitimate concerns about the quality of their >> products. > >And *nix/OSX/VMS/zOS/zVM are free of quality defects? Where are the >cheap shots against these? The cheap shots we hear over and over >again... I think it's a question of levels of issues. I for one complain about problems with Mac OS X, there are some design decisions that are just plain stupid. As for VMS, the complaints there exist as well, but you're less likely to see them unless you're hanging out in comp.os.vms. In spite of all the problems with these other OS's (sorry I'm not conversant in the IBM OS's), they're a walk in the park compared to trying to administer Windows. >And do not come back with something like "well, Microsoft deserves >them because they have way more defects". Plenty of people use >Microsoft products - .NET included - and seem to do just fine. How about incredible drain on business resources due to all of the patches that are required for Microsoft products. Anymore that is my chief complaint against Windows. Heaven help you if a "Critical" Security patch comes down the stream. Then people will likely loose their weekend to the latest My hatred of Microsoft began when I bought Visual Basic V1, while I considered it to be a great product, if failed to deliver the OS/2 version advertised on the box and in the manual. Windows 95 convinced me to buy a Mac. I still don't like Microsoft, but I do like their development tools. SQL Studio, Visual Studio and .NET all rock, and I'm spending a disturbing amount of time working with them now. At least with Visual Studio and .NET I can still target both Linux and Win2k3 (the two platforms I need to target for work). I just wish HP would get their act together and port Mono to VMS. >You must realize that there is a big difference between a legitimate >complaint and bashing. The latter wore out its welcome with me years >ago. The last funny thing related to Microsoft bashing I saw was Kai's >form letter responses to bashing on this list, in the early days. Sadly the MS bashing is what caused Kai's departure from this list. One has to wonder what resources are on this list that we don't know about due to listmembers hostility towards certain companies. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From js at cimmeri.com Fri May 22 11:52:06 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 11:52:06 -0500 Subject: FA: Synertek SYM In-Reply-To: <184EA6D5-30D8-4ADF-9E02-E7831708BF7B@neurotica.com> References: <4A125DFF.8070401@softjar.se> <184EA6D5-30D8-4ADF-9E02-E7831708BF7B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A16D836.1020403@cimmeri.com> Synertek SYM Model 1 excellent condition, tested working with: - original box, foam, static bag - hardware manual - programming manual - SYM reference manual - reference card - product guides - seminar workbook - 2 connectors Photos: http://www.cimmeri.com/sym1-9.jpg http://www.cimmeri.com/sym1-2.jpg http://www.cimmeri.com/sym1-4.jpg http://www.cimmeri.com/sym1-1.jpg http://www.cimmeri.com/sym1-6.jpg http://www.cimmeri.com/sym1-7.jpg This post valid for 1 week from date+ time of post. Please submit offers via email. Item has a reserve which I've not made up my mind on yet. Would also consider as trade towards a half-height PDP 11/04 or 11/05. Thank you, John S. Maryland From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 22 11:59:32 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 12:59:32 -0400 Subject: FA: Synertek SYM In-Reply-To: <4A16D836.1020403@cimmeri.com> References: <4A125DFF.8070401@softjar.se> <184EA6D5-30D8-4ADF-9E02-E7831708BF7B@neurotica.com> <4A16D836.1020403@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 12:52 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > Synertek SYM Model 1 > excellent condition, tested working That looks gorgeous (but I already have one, so I'll let others vie for it). -ethan From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri May 22 12:01:19 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 10:01:19 -0700 Subject: Microsoft bashing In-Reply-To: <4A165959.2020300@softjar.se> References: <4A165959.2020300@softjar.se> Message-ID: <7500B1B2-FBF8-4F3D-8B58-261CDAA8BAB6@mail.msu.edu> On May 22, 2009, at 12:50 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > William Donzelli wrote: > >>> > So predictable and not even mildly funny. >> Microsoft bashing stopped being funny about 10 years ago. > > Ever considered that some people are bashing Microsoft for other > reasons than tryiong to be funny? > Such as: There are actually legitimate concerns about the quality of > their products. > > And that deserves to be repeated, and pointed out time and time > again, even if some don't think it's funny. Because without bringing > up the actual problems, their products would probably be even more > dominant, even when the problems sometimes are really serious. Yes. And this is -clearly- the forum to do it in, what with the millions of regular readers with powerful media and political ties. Josh > > > Now - some people claim that there are no problems any more. Good > for them. Others don't have the same experience/luck. > > Johnny > > -- > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol > From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Fri May 22 12:14:22 2009 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 10:14:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing Message-ID: <228533.42006.qm@web112207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> yea.. I'm sick of the this too.. You like your computer like a religion, fine.. Let other people have their religions too. etslay opstay ethay icrosoftmay ashingbay okway? From spedraja at ono.com Fri May 22 12:48:08 2009 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 19:48:08 +0200 Subject: Altos 686 In-Reply-To: <581472.79743.qm@web57005.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <581472.79743.qm@web57005.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Available for Altos 686 Xenix 3.2 ? Sergio 2009/5/22 Michael Hart > Why don't you just down load GCC and install that? > > > --- On Fri, 5/22/09, SPC wrote: > > From: SPC > Subject: Altos 686 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Date: Friday, May 22, 2009, 7:51 AM > > Hello. I have one Altos 686 with Xenix 3.2 in working state. I should like > to install on it one C compiler and eventually the Ryan-McFarland Cobol for > this platform if available. > > I remember something about IMD image disks available in some place in the > Internet but I don't remember where. > > All help is welcome > > Kind Regards > Sergio > > > > > From lproven at gmail.com Fri May 22 13:06:28 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 19:06:28 +0100 Subject: Anyone interested in an Amstrad PCW? Message-ID: <575131af0905221106g49b76901ne6d77fa931994e2d@mail.gmail.com> Lovely late-1980s vintage CP/M machine. A neighbour of mine has just found a forgotten PCW 8256 and she wants rid of it. It's in south London. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 22 13:32:33 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 11:32:33 -0700 Subject: Anyone interested in an Amstrad PCW? In-Reply-To: <575131af0905221106g49b76901ne6d77fa931994e2d@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0905221106g49b76901ne6d77fa931994e2d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A168D51.9322.152E4978@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 May 2009 at 19:06, Liam Proven wrote: > Lovely late-1980s vintage CP/M machine. A neighbour of mine has just > found a forgotten PCW 8256 and she wants rid of it. > > It's in south London. If no nibbles, try posting on the Vintage Computer forum. I've got one of these, fitted with 3.5" drives--for a CP/M box, it's not bad, particularly if populated with lots of memory. Even better if it comes with a serial I/O adapter and the printer's included. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri May 22 13:46:53 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 11:46:53 -0700 Subject: Jones plugs References: Message-ID: <4A16F31D.551FF99C@cs.ubc.ca> Roger Holmes wrote: > > In case anyone else wants the measurements of the Jones plugs, the > sockets are 35mm by 78mm or in imperial, 1 3/8 by 3 1/16. The pin > orientations were as I described, alternate rows of horizontal and > vertical. I checked at our radio museum yesterday, but no luck. We have dozens and dozens of Jones plugs and sockets, largest I found were 24 (3*8) and 33 (3*11) pin. The 40-pin requirement is pretty unusual. 4,6,8,10,12,15,18 pin are very common, popularity starts to drop off sharply after that in IME. It might be possible to trim & combine a combination of some more common plugs to fit, particularly if the the actual needs for the task don't require all 40 pins. Worst case, it is possible with Jones connectors to break a plug body (if male pins) to remove individual pins, solder wires to the pins, apply heat shrink insulation and then insert the pins one by one. A current Cinch-Jones catalog from the web shows connectors up to 33 pins. Either the 40-pin has been dropped over the years, it was something special for IBM, or it's not a Jones connector but something close/similar. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri May 22 13:49:41 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 11:49:41 -0700 Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs References: <462053.13883.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A16F3C5.53BAA472@cs.ubc.ca> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > On the subject of Jones plugs, What about the smaller types? Some video equipment uses an 8 pin plug, but it's not very big, only about an inch wide and a half inch tall, two pins tall by four pins wide. This is used for RGB video on some stuff I have here, and it would be real handy to have the correct plug to fit it. Is this a jones plug? It likely could be. A little treatise: There are two series of "Jones connectors", a large pin series and a small-pin series. One may also hear them referred to as Cinch connectors or Cinch-Jones connectors. The large-pin is the 2400 series and the small-pin the 300 series. http://www.cinch.com/view_product_line.cinch?id=29 catalog: http://www.cinch.com/products/pdf/Jones_PDF_Catalog1148360345.pdf Based on my observation (of equipment using them), the large-pin series goes back to at least WWII, probably earlier. They are a fairly heavy-duty connector and aren't seen all that frequently (IME). The pins are a flat blade about 1/4 inch wide. The small-pin series I believe was introduced sometime in the 40's. These were *extremely* common in a wide range of electronic equipment, particularly in the 50's and 60's, less so today but they are still available new. (I'm actually surprised at how many people here seem to be unaware of them). The pins are a flat blade about 1/8 inch wide. Number of contacts starts at 2 and goes up in increments of 1, 2 then 3 as they get larger, to at least 33. Black bakelite base; a range of mounting methods; plugs on older ones have a metal hood painted with black wrinkle-paint, newer ones (~70's+) the hoods are black plastic. They are nice from a convenience perspective but I tend to be leary of them from a contact-quality perspective. Older ones, have issues with corrosion/oxide formation on the pin surfaces and can be noisy for low-level signals. I don't know whether this is just an issue of age or whether the new ones have changed the plating and are (or will be into the future) better or the same. The web actually shows someone selling gold-plate versions which I had never seen before. From js at cimmeri.com Fri May 22 13:55:08 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 13:55:08 -0500 Subject: FA: Synertek SYM In-Reply-To: References: <4A125DFF.8070401@softjar.se> <184EA6D5-30D8-4ADF-9E02-E7831708BF7B@neurotica.com> <4A16D836.1020403@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <4A16F50C.4090007@cimmeri.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 12:52 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > >> Synertek SYM Model 1 >> excellent condition, tested working >> > > That looks gorgeous (but I already have one, so I'll let others vie for it). > > -ethan Thanks for the compliment. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri May 22 13:58:40 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 14:58:40 -0400 Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: <4A16F3C5.53BAA472@cs.ubc.ca> References: <462053.13883.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A16F3C5.53BAA472@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > There are two series of "Jones connectors", a large pin series and a small-pin > series. One may also hear them referred to as Cinch connectors or Cinch-Jones > connectors. The large-pin is the 2400 series and the small-pin the 300 series. There is a third series, with very large (about 3/8 inch wide) pins. -- Will From eric at brouhaha.com Fri May 22 14:29:59 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 12:29:59 -0700 Subject: Jones plugs with 40 pins In-Reply-To: <4A16A642.4090101@gmail.com> References: <1242934752.4200.116.camel@elric> <128101c9da5a$20272d40$71ce19bb@desktaba> <4A16A642.4090101@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A16FD37.5040505@brouhaha.com> William wrote: > Please, not another callsign check in. We just had one not long ago. Jules wrote: > That made me chuckle. We must be overdue a car thread by now though, > and I've not seen a gun discussion on here in years... :-) Just last week I used my PDP-8 to interface the 10m rig in my car to the PID control loop of my 40W phased plasma rifle. From classiccmp at crash.com Fri May 22 14:33:31 2009 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 12:33:31 -0700 Subject: Washing machine drives, was Re: BA123's as furniture. . . In-Reply-To: <20090522094124.f739beec.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <8CBA8AC53B1B0B3-B34-309B@webmail-db06.sysops.aol.com> <20090522094124.f739beec.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4A16FE0B.7040006@crash.com> Jochen Kunz wrote: > > 4. While doing laundry, you occassionaly have a mental lapse and try to > wash your socks and underwear in your 11/750. I'd think this is more of a danger with the RM05 or RP06, if you happen to have one located too close to your laundry area. So has anybody come across any plausible stories about having to clean washing detergent out of free-standing pack-based disk drives? This as opposed to the comparatively common case of having a badge on an actual dishwasher or refrigerator. I'm thinking of a pdp-11/23 badge on a dishwasher at a group house in Alston, MA for starters... --S. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 22 14:56:13 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 15:56:13 -0400 Subject: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing In-Reply-To: <228533.42006.qm@web112207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <228533.42006.qm@web112207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8AE73CF3-3942-49D4-9151-8BFD5DE53D02@neurotica.com> On May 22, 2009, at 1:14 PM, Christian Liendo wrote: > yea.. I'm sick of the this too.. > > You like your computer like a religion, fine.. Let other people > have their religions too. > > > etslay opstay ethay icrosoftmay ashingbay okway? Sure thing. But let's make one thing clear: It's not a religion, as easy as it may be to dismiss it as such. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri May 22 15:05:15 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 16:05:15 -0400 Subject: Jones plugs with 40 pins In-Reply-To: <4A16FD37.5040505@brouhaha.com> References: <1242934752.4200.116.camel@elric> <128101c9da5a$20272d40$71ce19bb@desktaba> <4A16A642.4090101@gmail.com> <4A16FD37.5040505@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Just last week I used my PDP-8 to interface the 10m rig in my car to the PID > control loop of my 40W phased plasma rifle. Did you use DB9s for the connectors? -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 22 15:23:19 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 13:23:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT-ish, Museums and MP3s Re: Museum interpretations In-Reply-To: <4A163E94.90509@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <4A162773.5030402@jetnet.ab.ca>, <131A0436-2511-468D-995B-BA633296FCB4@neurotica.com> <4A15D081.3385.124CB14F@cclist.sydex.com> <4A163E94.90509@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20090522132031.J35005@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 21 May 2009, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > >>> Grumbles at the lack of 9 bit wide ram chips ... No matter how are 9 bit SIMMs becoming hard to find?? > I suspect if I dig hard I can find 9 bit wide static ram of some kind, > but with the low cost of 32KBx8 ram I can waste 7 out of 8 bits. Would it make sense to use 3, thereby giving you 24 bit wide? You could either use 18 of the 24, or implement some sort of ECC with the "extra" 6 bits From IanK at vulcan.com Fri May 22 15:29:30 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 13:29:30 -0700 Subject: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing In-Reply-To: <8AE73CF3-3942-49D4-9151-8BFD5DE53D02@neurotica.com> References: <228533.42006.qm@web112207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <8AE73CF3-3942-49D4-9151-8BFD5DE53D02@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 12:56 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing > > On May 22, 2009, at 1:14 PM, Christian Liendo wrote: > > yea.. I'm sick of the this too.. > > > > You like your computer like a religion, fine.. Let other people > > have their religions too. > > > > > > etslay opstay ethay icrosoftmay ashingbay okway? > > Sure thing. But let's make one thing clear: It's not a religion, > as easy as it may be to dismiss it as such. > > -Dave Perhaps not, but the zeal borders on religious - and equally without factual basis. (No disrespect to any religion: the fundamental premise of any religion with which I'm familiar is faith, i.e. belief in that which is not proven.) Fact: CERT reports just about as many exploits for Linux-derived systems as Windows (at least, that was the data I researched back when I was in grad school three or four years ago). There is a lot of argument (again, mostly rather zealous) about which OS has the more "serious" vulnerabilities, but in any event they ARE flaws. Fact: The most commonly seen causation for crashes in either Windows or Linux-derived operating systems is defective device drivers. Interestingly, the two operating systems approach this differently. Windows preemptively crashes: the logic is to return the machine to a known state. Linux tries to keep going, which may result in an inexplicable error later on. One can argue the merits of either approach, and I'm sure many do. Fact: I have a large box filled with 'Software Revision' release publications for RSX-11. (Hey look, I got it back to vintage systems!) Microsoft is not the first operating system vendor to issue patches and patches to patches and.... I'm not sure why it seems more "egregious" with one vendor than another - except that there is a tendency to bash "corporations", despite the fact that the majority of corporations are small, privately held companies. Opinion: I thought Microsoft operating systems were getting better and better, until Vista. I hope they'll get it right with Windows 7 and get back on an upward trend. However, I will say that it wasn't just Vista, but also the poor quality of PC hardware (three motherboards in one year?) that drove me to Macs. I really like my PowerBook G4, not only for its convenience and reliability but also because it's dead sexy. I recently replaced my desktop (supporting four monitors) with two Dual G4s (each running two monitors and sharing the keyboard/mouse through Synergy). Function wins. Disclosure: I worked for Microsoft for a dozen years. (I don't anymore.) When I worked at Microsoft, I did not like Vista and persisted in running XP on my company-issued laptop. In fact, for a while before I left I ran Ubuntu at home, until I grew weary of replacing not-inexpensive PC components and fighting compatibility issues (in a commoditized marketplace!). Now, since I don't work there anymore, no one bothers me about my PowerBook - since I've "taken off the collar", people have stopped expecting me to be an apologist - or seeing me as some kind of heretic. It's just a computer. These days, I've been spending a lot of my time on VMS on a VAX-11/780-5, using CMUIP as the networking layer. THAT will give you a sense of perspective. Hey, backups are done - I need to go finish reassembling this TU56 for a PDP-8/e.... -- Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 22 15:42:44 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 16:42:44 -0400 Subject: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing In-Reply-To: References: <228533.42006.qm@web112207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <8AE73CF3-3942-49D4-9151-8BFD5DE53D02@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <6A7706E3-837A-4C69-AB51-7D27FF271B44@neurotica.com> On May 22, 2009, at 4:29 PM, Ian King wrote: >>> Sure thing. But let's make one thing clear: It's not a religion, >> as easy as it may be to dismiss it as such. >> > > Perhaps not, but the zeal borders on religious - and equally > without factual basis. (No disrespect to any religion: the > fundamental premise of any religion with which I'm familiar is > faith, i.e. belief in that which is not proven.) > > Fact: CERT reports just about as many exploits for Linux-derived > systems as Windows (at least, that was the data I researched back > when I was in grad school three or four years ago). There is a lot > of argument (again, mostly rather zealous) about which OS has the > more "serious" vulnerabilities, but in any event they ARE flaws. > > Fact: The most commonly seen causation for crashes in either > Windows or Linux-derived operating systems is defective device > drivers. Interestingly, the two operating systems approach this > differently. Windows preemptively crashes: the logic is to return > the machine to a known state. Linux tries to keep going, which may > result in an inexplicable error later on. One can argue the merits > of either approach, and I'm sure many do. > > Fact: I have a large box filled with 'Software Revision' release > publications for RSX-11. (Hey look, I got it back to vintage > systems!) Microsoft is not the first operating system vendor to > issue patches and patches to patches and.... I'm not sure why it > seems more "egregious" with one vendor than another - except that > there is a tendency to bash "corporations", despite the fact that > the majority of corporations are small, privately held companies. I'm sorry, did you mistakenly assume that someone was talking about Microsoft vs. *Linux* in particular? I certainly wasn't. Further, the existence of patches does not equate to downtime, as you well know. > These days, I've been spending a lot of my time on VMS on a > VAX-11/780-5, using CMUIP as the networking layer. THAT will give > you a sense of perspective. Hey, backups are done - I need to go > finish reassembling this TU56 for a PDP-8/e.... -- Ian Mmmm, TU56, one of my favorite devices. It makes me feel really old when I think that I've had mine for 24 years now; I got it when I was 16. Its left transport has become flaky; I'll be digging into that soon. Even with a TD8E they're really sweet drives. I'd love to find a TC08 someday. And it's so nice to be back on-topic. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 22 16:00:14 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 14:00:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jones plugs with 40 pins In-Reply-To: References: <1242934752.4200.116.camel@elric> <128101c9da5a$20272d40$71ce19bb@desktaba> <4A16A642.4090101@gmail.com> <4A16FD37.5040505@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20090522135423.J35005@shell.lmi.net> > > Just last week I used my PDP-8 to interface the 10m rig in my car to the PID > > control loop of my 40W phased plasma rifle. On Fri, 22 May 2009, William Donzelli wrote: > Did you use DB9s for the connectors? I thought that those used Centronics connectors, at least for the IDE disk controller, the 1.44M floppy, and the 56K baud modem. From IanK at vulcan.com Fri May 22 16:05:44 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 14:05:44 -0700 Subject: TU56 (was RE: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing) In-Reply-To: <6A7706E3-837A-4C69-AB51-7D27FF271B44@neurotica.com> References: <228533.42006.qm@web112207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <8AE73CF3-3942-49D4-9151-8BFD5DE53D02@neurotica.com> <6A7706E3-837A-4C69-AB51-7D27FF271B44@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 1:43 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts [snip] > I'm sorry, did you mistakenly assume that someone was talking > about Microsoft vs. *Linux* in particular? I certainly wasn't. It's useful to use Linux and its derivatives (Red Hat, Debian, etc.) as a focus point for the conversation, because (a) there is a reasonable amount of information regarding its characteristics and (b) IME it's usually the Linux folks who tout their superiority the loudest. I like Linux well enough, but - well, it really does feel more like religion than technology some days. Maybe that's why I mostly use OpenBSD. :-) > > Mmmm, TU56, one of my favorite devices. It makes me feel really > old when I think that I've had mine for 24 years now; I got it when I > was 16. Its left transport has become flaky; I'll be digging into > that soon. Even with a TD8E they're really sweet drives. I'd love > to find a TC08 someday. > > And it's so nice to be back on-topic. :) > We have a TC08 for this one (actually, two units, but I'm short a 725 power supply). Rebuilding its 721 power supply was 'interesting'. DEC was quite 'clever' in the way it assembled it, which meant it was a headache to dismantle and reassemble, especially since I'm shooting for historical authenticity. I have a TU56 and TD8E in my personal collection, but my TU56 doesn't have the G888 encoders. :-( I keep looking... and may just have to make my own one of these days. -- Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 22 16:16:54 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 17:16:54 -0400 Subject: TU56 (was RE: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing) In-Reply-To: References: <228533.42006.qm@web112207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <8AE73CF3-3942-49D4-9151-8BFD5DE53D02@neurotica.com> <6A7706E3-837A-4C69-AB51-7D27FF271B44@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On May 22, 2009, at 5:05 PM, Ian King wrote: >> I'm sorry, did you mistakenly assume that someone was talking >> about Microsoft vs. *Linux* in particular? I certainly wasn't. > > It's useful to use Linux and its derivatives (Red Hat, Debian, > etc.) as a focus point for the conversation, because (a) there is a > reasonable amount of information regarding its characteristics and > (b) IME it's usually the Linux folks who tout their superiority the > loudest. I like Linux well enough, but - well, it really does feel > more like religion than technology some days. Perhaps. But the stability of Linux has nothing to do with the stability of, say, Solaris. > Maybe that's why I mostly use OpenBSD. :-) Indeed, the BSDs are quite nice. My personal preference is Solaris: coconet02$ uptime 5:10pm up 814 day(s), 17:17, 1 user, load average: 1.61, 1.41, 1.92 coconet02$ That machine services about 60 SQL queries per second, 24x7. Its uptime is only 814 days because we rewired the power systems in the datacenter and had about a day of downtime. Without that, it'd be well in excess of five years. :) Never cracked (and it's a target, and isn't firewalled), and never crashed. > We have a TC08 for this one (actually, two units, but I'm short a > 725 power supply). Rebuilding its 721 power supply was > 'interesting'. DEC was quite 'clever' in the way it assembled it, > which meant it was a headache to dismantle and reassemble, > especially since I'm shooting for historical authenticity. I feel your pain. I got a PDP-11/50 recently, and I had to repair the little board that mounts atop the transformer in one of the power supplies. That was not fun to get to. > I have a TU56 and TD8E in my personal collection, but my TU56 > doesn't have the G888 encoders. :-( I keep looking... and may > just have to make my own one of these days. - G888...I'm trying to remember what they look like. I know I have some TU56 spares; I *might* have some of those. How many does it need, do you recall? If I have them I'll send them to you. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 22 16:23:29 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 15:23:29 -0600 Subject: OT-ish, Museums and MP3s Re: Museum interpretations In-Reply-To: <20090522132031.J35005@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4A162773.5030402@jetnet.ab.ca>, <131A0436-2511-468D-995B-BA633296FCB4@neurotica.com> <4A15D081.3385.124CB14F@cclist.sydex.com> <4A163E94.90509@jetnet.ab.ca> <20090522132031.J35005@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4A1717D1.3060601@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > Would it make sense to use 3, thereby giving you 24 bit wide? > You could either use 18 of the 24, or implement some sort of ECC with the > "extra" 6 bits Static ram is cheap...I only need 64KB of 9 bit memory and some EEPROM for bootstraps. ECC is best with Dram since in the general case you can refresh and scrub and clean your memory. Did any of the LISP machines do garbage collection with refresh? Ben. > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 22 16:28:25 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 17:28:25 -0400 Subject: OT-ish, Museums and MP3s Re: Museum interpretations In-Reply-To: <4A162DD2.7060404@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4A15BE9B.6090608@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A15D52B.7020101@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A162773.5030402@jetnet.ab.ca> <131A0436-2511-468D-995B-BA633296FCB4@neurotica.com> <4A162DD2.7060404@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On May 22, 2009, at 12:45 AM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> What sort of density are you looking for? I've seen some really >> nice 16Kx1 SRAM chips made by Inmos. Or you could implement a >> DRAM controller in your FPGA and do it that way, with 1-bit-wide >> DRAM chips. > > I am looking at about 32K 18 bit word memory on small single board > computer, some thing around the size of a PDP 8/e in functionality > but 18 rather than 12 bits. > I am looking to add modern features (1968 ish) like character > addressable > memory, Stack and Index registers as well as # data. > Memory, Uart and CPU I can get on one PCB as well as simple IDE > interface. > The other PCB will be the 18 bit front panel with the MAR,MBR and > AC displayed > connected via ribbon cable. > Ben. > >> -Dave > Ps. > Since this is a small computer, hardware support of floating point > is NOT a > option. :) You could probably interface something like an 8087 to that. Their architecture is actually kinda nice, IMO. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From IanK at vulcan.com Fri May 22 16:30:19 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 14:30:19 -0700 Subject: TU56 (was RE: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing) In-Reply-To: References: <228533.42006.qm@web112207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <8AE73CF3-3942-49D4-9151-8BFD5DE53D02@neurotica.com> <6A7706E3-837A-4C69-AB51-7D27FF271B44@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 2:17 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: TU56 (was RE: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: > Microsoft bashing) > > On May 22, 2009, at 5:05 PM, Ian King wrote: > >> I'm sorry, did you mistakenly assume that someone was talking > >> about Microsoft vs. *Linux* in particular? I certainly wasn't. > > > > It's useful to use Linux and its derivatives (Red Hat, Debian, > > etc.) as a focus point for the conversation, because (a) there is a > > reasonable amount of information regarding its characteristics and > > (b) IME it's usually the Linux folks who tout their superiority the > > loudest. I like Linux well enough, but - well, it really does feel > > more like religion than technology some days. > > Perhaps. But the stability of Linux has nothing to do with the > stability of, say, Solaris. > > > Maybe that's why I mostly use OpenBSD. :-) > > Indeed, the BSDs are quite nice. My personal preference is Solaris: > > coconet02$ uptime > 5:10pm up 814 day(s), 17:17, 1 user, load average: 1.61, 1.41, > 1.92 > coconet02$ > > That machine services about 60 SQL queries per second, 24x7. Its > uptime is only 814 days because we rewired the power systems in the > datacenter and had about a day of downtime. Without that, it'd be > well in excess of five years. :) Never cracked (and it's a target, > and isn't firewalled), and never crashed. > > > We have a TC08 for this one (actually, two units, but I'm short a > > 725 power supply). Rebuilding its 721 power supply was > > 'interesting'. DEC was quite 'clever' in the way it assembled it, > > which meant it was a headache to dismantle and reassemble, > > especially since I'm shooting for historical authenticity. > > I feel your pain. I got a PDP-11/50 recently, and I had to repair > the little board that mounts atop the transformer in one of the power > supplies. That was not fun to get to. > > > I have a TU56 and TD8E in my personal collection, but my TU56 > > doesn't have the G888 encoders. :-( I keep looking... and may > > just have to make my own one of these days. - > > G888...I'm trying to remember what they look like. I know I have > some TU56 spares; I *might* have some of those. How many does it > need, do you recall? If I have them I'll send them to you. > > -Dave > ISTR it's five of them, one for each data channel. They're a single-height with one IC and some transistors, and traces only on one side of the board. That's old school. :-) -- Ian From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 22 16:36:19 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 15:36:19 -0600 Subject: OT-ish, Museums and MP3s Re: Museum interpretations In-Reply-To: References: <4A15BE9B.6090608@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A15D52B.7020101@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A162773.5030402@jetnet.ab.ca> <131A0436-2511-468D-995B-BA633296FCB4@neurotica.com> <4A162DD2.7060404@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4A171AD3.3070402@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 22, 2009, at 12:45 AM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >>> What sort of density are you looking for? I've seen some really >>> nice 16Kx1 SRAM chips made by Inmos. Or you could implement a DRAM >>> controller in your FPGA and do it that way, with 1-bit-wide DRAM chips. >> >> I am looking at about 32K 18 bit word memory on small single board >> computer, some thing around the size of a PDP 8/e in functionality but >> 18 rather than 12 bits. >> I am looking to add modern features (1968 ish) like character addressable >> memory, Stack and Index registers as well as # data. >> Memory, Uart and CPU I can get on one PCB as well as simple IDE >> interface. >> The other PCB will be the 18 bit front panel with the MAR,MBR and AC >> displayed >> connected via ribbon cable. >> Ben. >> >>> -Dave >> Ps. >> Since this is a small computer, hardware support of floating point is >> NOT a >> option. :) > > You could probably interface something like an 8087 to that. Their > architecture is actually kinda nice, IMO. Unlikely , but the 8087 sold a lot PC's. I have Knuth's books so I can at least write some floating point software. Ben. > -Dave > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 22 16:38:28 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 17:38:28 -0400 Subject: TU56 (was RE: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing) In-Reply-To: References: <228533.42006.qm@web112207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <8AE73CF3-3942-49D4-9151-8BFD5DE53D02@neurotica.com> <6A7706E3-837A-4C69-AB51-7D27FF271B44@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On May 22, 2009, at 5:30 PM, Ian King wrote: >>> I have a TU56 and TD8E in my personal collection, but my TU56 >>> doesn't have the G888 encoders. :-( I keep looking... and may >>> just have to make my own one of these days. - >> >> G888...I'm trying to remember what they look like. I know I have >> some TU56 spares; I *might* have some of those. How many does it >> need, do you recall? If I have them I'll send them to you. >> > > ISTR it's five of them, one for each data channel. They're a > single-height with one IC and some transistors, and traces only on > one side of the board. That's old school. :-) Indeed. I think I have some spares of those, but probably not five. I'll look and see what I can find. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 22 16:55:06 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 17:55:06 -0400 Subject: OT-ish, Museums and MP3s Re: Museum interpretations In-Reply-To: <4A171AD3.3070402@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4A15BE9B.6090608@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A15D52B.7020101@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A162773.5030402@jetnet.ab.ca> <131A0436-2511-468D-995B-BA633296FCB4@neurotica.com> <4A162DD2.7060404@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A171AD3.3070402@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On May 22, 2009, at 5:36 PM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> You could probably interface something like an 8087 to that. >> Their architecture is actually kinda nice, IMO. > > Unlikely , but the 8087 sold a lot PC's. I have Knuth's books so I > can at > least write some floating point software. Ben. Have you seen the uM-FPU series of chips? They're not fast, but they'll give you floating point. I have one of those on one of my Z80 SBCs. They're pretty neat, and damn easy to interface. You should check them out if you haven't already. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From eric at brouhaha.com Fri May 22 17:10:36 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 15:10:36 -0700 Subject: Jones plugs with 40 pins In-Reply-To: References: <1242934752.4200.116.camel@elric> <128101c9da5a$20272d40$71ce19bb@desktaba> <4A16A642.4090101@gmail.com> <4A16FD37.5040505@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4A1722DC.8060904@brouhaha.com> I wrote: >> Just last week I used my PDP-8 to interface the 10m rig in my car to the PID >> control loop of my 40W phased plasma rifle. >> Will wrote: > Did you use DB9s for the connectors? > No, I wanted something more reliable, so I used current loop over Western Electric 283B plugs and 404B jacks. From chd_1 at nktelco.net Fri May 22 17:13:52 2009 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 18:13:52 -0400 Subject: Anyone heard of a North Plug or IBM wire relays ... Re: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: References: <462053.13883.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A16F3C5.53BAA472@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4A1723A0.9060400@nktelco.net> William Donzelli wrote: >> There are two series of "Jones connectors", a large pin series and a small-pin >> series. One may also hear them referred to as Cinch connectors or Cinch-Jones >> connectors. The large-pin is the 2400 series and the small-pin the 300 series. >> > > There is a third series, with very large (about 3/8 inch wide) pins. > > -- > Will > In the early 60's a machine control my employer used on a can-end making stamping presses (think pull-top beer cans) was built using IBM "wire" relays. The IBM sourced chassis had an array of sockets for the relays with a wirewrap (?) backplane. The chassis was connected to the machine with a large multi-blade connector very similar to the Jones connectors that have been talked about, although smaller in size, they were larger in contact count. The connector was always described as the "North plug". Our BOM system says it was sourced from North Electrical. The "wire" relays were quite simple. They consisted of multiple Form C contacts. The moving contact was a wire tack welded to the armature. By my time they had pretty much been replaced by a CD4000 based digital logic system. Stories were told about the tack weld fatiguing and the wire contact shorting things in arbitrary ways. Not a desirable feature for a stamping press control. I have been curious about the relays since I found a cannibalized chassis about 10 years ago, which I still have. I thought that the technology might have been used on tabulating machines, but I never did any research. I can take pictures of it to jog memories. Anybody (Mr. Donzelli) recall IBM equipment like this? -chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 22 17:37:20 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 15:37:20 -0700 Subject: Anyone heard of a North Plug or IBM wire relays ... Re: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: <4A1723A0.9060400@nktelco.net> References: <462053.13883.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , <4A1723A0.9060400@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <4A16C6B0.15541.160E7086@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 May 2009 at 18:13, Charles H Dickman wrote: > I have been curious about the relays since I found a cannibalized > chassis about 10 years ago, which I still have. I thought that the > technology might have been used on tabulating machines, but I never > did any research. I can take pictures of it to jog memories. > > Anybody (Mr. Donzelli) recall IBM equipment like this? I've got one of those in my hellbox somewhere. Two coil windings. I wondered where it was from. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 22 17:11:09 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 23:11:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: <462053.13883.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> from "Mr Ian Primus" at May 22, 9 07:40:46 am Message-ID: > > > On the subject of Jones plugs, What about the smaller types? Some > video equipment uses an 8 pin plug, but it's not very big, only about an > inch wide and a half inch tall, two pins tall by four pins wide. This > is used for RGB video on some stuff I have here, and it would be real > handy to have the correct plug to fit it. Is this a jones plug? I know the connector you're refering to, I've seen it used both for RGB+Sync video and for composide video + line level audio input/output (in both cases there are 4 signals and 4 grounds on the connector). It's not a Jones plug. Jones plugs have flat pins, this one had round pins. I've seen it refered to as a 'JIS connector', but I can't believe that's the right name. I can see if any of the video recorder service manuals I have give a more accurate name. -tony From chd_1 at nktelco.net Fri May 22 17:47:52 2009 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 18:47:52 -0400 Subject: Why is TC08 better than TD8e Re: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing In-Reply-To: <6A7706E3-837A-4C69-AB51-7D27FF271B44@neurotica.com> References: <228533.42006.qm@web112207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <8AE73CF3-3942-49D4-9151-8BFD5DE53D02@neurotica.com> <6A7706E3-837A-4C69-AB51-7D27FF271B44@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A172B98.2060706@nktelco.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > Mmmm, TU56, one of my favorite devices. It makes me feel really old > when I think that I've had mine for 24 years now; I got it when I was > 16. Its left transport has become flaky; I'll be digging into that > soon. Even with a TD8E they're really sweet drives. I'd love to find > a TC08 someday. > Interesting, the right transport of my TU56 was acting up last week. I originally thought it was the dual voltage controller, but it was OK on the bench. After trying a couple of times it magically began to work. There was either a bad solder joint or it was a bad connector. After that I went through the adjustments and got rid of all the tape slap on the left drive. I had gotten used to using the right drive because the tape slap on the left was so bad. > And it's so nice to be back on-topic. :) I agree. So what can you do with a TC08 that you can't do with a TD8e? I would like to have a TC08 also, but with OS/8 it does not gain me much function. Or does it? I would like to get an RTS/8 system running. I have several digital I/O boards and would like to have some analog too, but I haven't come up with a system to control. > > -Dave > -chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 22 18:47:15 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 16:47:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090522164431.E42782@shell.lmi.net> > > On the subject of Jones plugs, What about the smaller types? Some > > video equipment uses an 8 pin plug, but it's not very big, only about an > > inch wide and a half inch tall, two pins tall by four pins wide. This > > is used for RGB video on some stuff I have here, and it would be real > > handy to have the correct plug to fit it. Is this a jones plug? On Fri, 22 May 2009, Tony Duell wrote: > I know the connector you're refering to, I've seen it used both for > RGB+Sync video and for composide video + line level audio input/output > (in both cases there are 4 signals and 4 grounds on the connector). > It's not a Jones plug. Jones plugs have flat pins, this one had round > pins. I've seen it refered to as a 'JIS connector', but I can't believe > that's the right name. I can see if any of the video recorder service > manuals I have give a more accurate name. I had some Sony B&W reel to reel video gear that had those. They had "Honda" written on them, and I have heard them referred to as "Honda plugs", but I am almost certain that that was never the correct name for them. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 22 19:08:13 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 20:08:13 -0400 Subject: Why is TC08 better than TD8e Re: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing In-Reply-To: <4A172B98.2060706@nktelco.net> References: <228533.42006.qm@web112207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <8AE73CF3-3942-49D4-9151-8BFD5DE53D02@neurotica.com> <6A7706E3-837A-4C69-AB51-7D27FF271B44@neurotica.com> <4A172B98.2060706@nktelco.net> Message-ID: On May 22, 2009, at 6:47 PM, Charles H Dickman wrote: >> Mmmm, TU56, one of my favorite devices. It makes me feel really >> old when I think that I've had mine for 24 years now; I got it >> when I was 16. Its left transport has become flaky; I'll be >> digging into that soon. Even with a TD8E they're really sweet >> drives. I'd love to find a TC08 someday. >> > Interesting, the right transport of my TU56 was acting up last > week. I originally thought it was the dual voltage controller, but > it was OK on the bench. After trying a couple of times it magically > began to work. There was either a bad solder joint or it was a bad > connector. After that I went through the adjustments and got rid of > all the tape slap on the left drive. I had gotten used to using the > right drive because the tape slap on the left was so bad. Wow, problems that fix themselves! ;) Yeah, they're old enough that things can be pretty flaky. Mine is doing something strange with one of the motors...it won't turn in one direction. That seems odd to me because I was pretty sure that the motor drivers were shared between the two transports. I've not looked at it for a while, but I will soon. > So what can you do with a TC08 that you can't do with a TD8e? I > would like to have a TC08 also, but with OS/8 it does not gain me > much function. Or does it? I'm fuzzy on the specifics, but the TC08 is much smarter than the TD8E, so the OS/8 driver is much shorter. I *think* (and this is from 25-year-old memory, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong) that OS/8 can run in 8kw if you have a TC08, but requires 12kw (or 8kw plus the ROM board) if you have a TD8E. > I would like to get an RTS/8 system running. I have several digital > I/O boards and would like to have some analog too, but I haven't > come up with a system to control. That sounds like just too much fun! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From RichA at vulcan.com Fri May 22 19:56:16 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 17:56:16 -0700 Subject: Why is TC08 better than TD8e Re: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing In-Reply-To: <4A172B98.2060706@nktelco.net> References: <228533.42006.qm@web112207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <8AE73CF3-3942-49D4-9151-8BFD5DE53D02@neurotica.com> <6A7706E3-837A-4C69-AB51-7D27FF271B44@neurotica.com> <4A172B98.2060706@nktelco.net> Message-ID: > From: Charles H Dickman > Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 3:48 PM > Dave McGuire wrote: >> Mmmm, TU56, one of my favorite devices. It makes me feel really old >> when I think that I've had mine for 24 years now; I got it when I was >> 16. Its left transport has become flaky; I'll be digging into that >> soon. Even with a TD8E they're really sweet drives. I'd love to find >> a TC08 someday. [snip] > So what can you do with a TC08 that you can't do with a TD8e? I would > like to have a TC08 also, but with OS/8 it does not gain me much > function. Or does it? The ability to control more than 2 drives, and the TC08 does not involve the CPU in interpreting data read backwards from the tape (the complement- inverse feature/problem). I'm really glad Ian got the power supplies back together. I was never gonna get them done right. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell http://www.pdpplanet.org/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri May 22 20:07:47 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 21:07:47 -0400 Subject: Anyone heard of a North Plug or IBM wire relays ... Re: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: <4A1723A0.9060400@nktelco.net> References: <462053.13883.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A16F3C5.53BAA472@cs.ubc.ca> <4A1723A0.9060400@nktelco.net> Message-ID: > I have been curious about the relays since I found a cannibalized chassis > about 10 years ago, which I still have. I thought that the technology might > have been used on tabulating machines, but I never did any research. I can > take pictures of it to jog memories. Yes, pictures please. -- Will From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri May 22 20:20:41 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 18:20:41 -0700 Subject: FA: Synertek SYM In-Reply-To: <4A16F50C.4090007@cimmeri.com> References: <4A125DFF.8070401@softjar.se> <184EA6D5-30D8-4ADF-9E02-E7831708BF7B@neurotica.com> <4A16D836.1020403@cimmeri.com> <4A16F50C.4090007@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 13:55:08 -0500 > From: js at cimmeri.com > To: > Subject: Re: FA: Synertek SYM > > > > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 12:52 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: >> >>> Synertek SYM Model 1 >>> excellent condition, tested working >>> >> >> That looks gorgeous (but I already have one, so I'll let others vie for it). >> >> -ethan > Thanks for the compliment. Hi But it doesn't come with a FDC-1 board or a KTM2. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail? has ever-growing storage! Don?t worry about storage limits. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage1_052009 From ragooman at comcast.net Fri May 22 20:40:11 2009 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 21:40:11 -0400 Subject: FYI: Pittsburgh Vintage Computer Exhibit, Sun.Jun.7th, Breezeshooters Hamfest Message-ID: <4A1753FB.6020308@comcast.net> FYI: Pittsburgh Vintage Computer Exhibit, Sun.Jun.7th, Breezeshooters Hamfest Just wanted to let you know about the exhibit I'm holding at the Breezeshooters Hamfest next month, Sun.Jun.7th. We'll have a bunch of early electronics, computers, and video games from the 60's, 70's and early 80's on display - even some that you can play with. We'll have a bigger display than last year with about 25 machines on display. If anyone would like to bring anything for the exhibit, feel free to let me know and I'll make room. The Hamfest is the largest in the tristate area, also with 30acres of flea market space--only $5 admission. We'll be located indoors in bldg.2. The address is below So if you're in the western Pennsylvania region, come out and shoot the breeze. Pics from last year. http://picasaweb.google.com/ragooman/PittsburghVintageComputingExhibit2008 Breezeshooters Hamfest Hours: 8:00am - 3:00pm http://www.breezeshooters.net/ Butler Farm Show Grounds 627 Evans City Road, PA Rt. # 68 Butler, PA 16001 please pass this on to anyone you might know that's interested, =Dan -- [ = http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From dm561 at torfree.net Fri May 22 21:06:08 2009 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 22:06:08 -0400 Subject: Microsoft bashing Message-ID: <01C9DB29.85D76E00@MSE_D03> -----------Original Message: Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 09:50:49 +0200 From: Johnny Billquist Subject: Re: Microsoft bashing William Donzelli wrote: >> > So predictable and not even mildly funny. > > Microsoft bashing stopped being funny about 10 years ago. Ever considered that some people are bashing Microsoft for other reasons than tryiong to be funny? Such as: There are actually legitimate concerns about the quality of their products. And that deserves to be repeated, and pointed out time and time again, even if some don't think it's funny. Because without bringing up the actual problems, their products would probably be even more dominant, even when the problems sometimes are really serious. Now - some people claim that there are no problems any more. Good for them. Others don't have the same experience/luck. -------------Reply: Sure: most people bash Microsoft to show that they're smarter than the average (Microsoft) luser who needs to be *educated*; usually has the opposite effect. I don't see many actual specific problems brought up, but if someone actually has some *useful* information then there are other forums for that, just like there are forums for problems with software that's *not* made by Bill's boys & girls. m From eric at brouhaha.com Sat May 23 03:00:51 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 01:00:51 -0700 Subject: FA: Synertek SYM In-Reply-To: References: <4A125DFF.8070401@softjar.se> <184EA6D5-30D8-4ADF-9E02-E7831708BF7B@neurotica.com> <4A16D836.1020403@cimmeri.com> <4A16F50C.4090007@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <4A17AD33.6060809@brouhaha.com> Dwight wrote: > But it doesn't come with a FDC-1 board or a KTM2. And if someone offered you a Delorean, I suppose you'd complain that it didn't come with a flux capacitor. :-) From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat May 23 03:49:39 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 09:49:39 +0100 Subject: Anyone interested in an Amstrad PCW? In-Reply-To: <4A168D51.9322.152E4978@cclist.sydex.com> References: <575131af0905221106g49b76901ne6d77fa931994e2d@mail.gmail.com> <4A168D51.9322.152E4978@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1243068579.4200.122.camel@elric> On Fri, 2009-05-22 at 11:32 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 22 May 2009 at 19:06, Liam Proven wrote: > > > Lovely late-1980s vintage CP/M machine. A neighbour of mine has just > > found a forgotten PCW 8256 and she wants rid of it. > > > > It's in south London. > > If no nibbles, try posting on the Vintage Computer forum. I've got > one of these, fitted with 3.5" drives--for a CP/M box, it's not bad, > particularly if populated with lots of memory. Even better if it > comes with a serial I/O adapter and the printer's included. I often considered gutting mine and recasing it - as a certain North-East collector might put it "rare as paving slabs" - with a smaller (maybe 9") monitor, upping the RAM to the full-fat 512k and maybe a 3.5" disk. Hmmm - I've got a knackered Mac Classic kicking around and a few 9" CCTV monitors... The thing that puts me off removing it from my Mum's attic is it takes up a lot of space for something I wouldn't use that much. Gordon From doc at vaxen.net Fri May 22 15:14:19 2009 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 15:14:19 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Washing machine drives, was Re: BA123's as furniture. . . In-Reply-To: <4A16FE0B.7040006@crash.com> References: <8CBA8AC53B1B0B3-B34-309B@webmail-db06.sysops.aol.com> <20090522094124.f739beec.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4A16FE0B.7040006@crash.com> Message-ID: <4A1702EA.2070905@vaxen.net> Steven M Jones wrote: > Jochen Kunz wrote: >> >> 4. While doing laundry, you occassionaly have a mental lapse and try to >> wash your socks and underwear in your 11/750. > > I'd think this is more of a danger with the RM05 or RP06, if you happen > to have one located too close to your laundry area. > > So has anybody come across any plausible stories about having to clean > washing detergent out of free-standing pack-based disk drives? No, but I thought I was going to have to pay for laundering my neighbor's pants, the first time he heard an RA60 spin up. He was appropriately awed at the size of the 11/84, the RA60, and the drive packs, and interested as hell watching me load the pack and start the machine. When the RA60 started spooling up he started looking at it sort of funny (they wind up like a jet turbine if you never heard one). When the heads unlocked, he made the other end of the garage in one jump. :-) Doc From jdebert at garlic.com Fri May 22 07:47:49 2009 From: jdebert at garlic.com (j debert) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 05:47:49 -0700 Subject: NSC, Litronix junk (was Re: Does anyone have any info about 1970s-era National Semiconductor LED modules?) In-Reply-To: <4A13C482.19090.A4DCF0D@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4A13C482.19090.A4DCF0D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A169EF5.10504@garlic.com> Chuck Guzis ????????: > As well as watches and video games. I still have an NSC watch > (nonfunctioning) and I recall giving a Pong game to my brother's > family as a gift back then. I still have two working NSC caluclators. One is a tiny programmable, the size of a tiny cell phone, sold by Radio Shack, the other is a checkbook calculator with the NSC brand. I think I still have a couple NSC watches. Those two watches are the most accurate I've ever had: 2 seconds error in about 30 days, referenced to WWV/WWVH. The original battery lasted 8 years but the replacements barely last 6 months, now. Strange. I'm reminded of Litronix, which also made LEDs, arrays and watches. They made an abortive foray into the then booming calculator market, ISTR. I still have one of the watch innards, which perished in the laundry somehow. It seems that they were in the business of producing scrap and bullying employees and lower management. IIRC, Litronix was soon consumed by the Great Siemens and (thankfully) is now little more than a vague and somewhat unpleasant memory. jd From josh at eleet-tech.com Fri May 22 16:12:02 2009 From: josh at eleet-tech.com (Joshua Strzalko) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 17:12:02 -0400 Subject: FREE: QIC-40/-80 Internal Tape Drive Message-ID: <004101c9db21$f40b6140$dc2223c0$@com> DO you still have this? I will pay to have it shipped to florida. Regards, Joshua Strzalko President, Eleet Technologies, Inc. Office: 407.977.2857 Fax: 321.244.9435 josh at eleet-tech.com http://www.eleet-tech.com From tmcnerney at itasoftware.com Fri May 22 17:24:43 2009 From: tmcnerney at itasoftware.com (Tim McNerney) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 18:24:43 -0400 Subject: CP/M ported to a Zilog debugger/programming cable Message-ID: <4A17262B.7020202@itasoftware.com> When I attended the VCF 10.0, I talked to a guy with a booth at the show who had ported CP/M to a Zilog debugging/programming cable (not surprisingly, it has a Z80 inside). Any idea who this mystery CP/M wizard might be and/or where his web-site is? --Tim From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Sat May 23 03:09:20 2009 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 10:09:20 +0200 Subject: SC/MP docs Message-ID: <4A17AF30.8010606@iais.fraunhofer.de> Hi, Seems I find a bit of time to pick up old chips again, namely, the National SC/MP ISP8A-600N, aka INS 8060. Datasheets are available, as well as a number of references from the net. What I am looking for, though, is a copy of publication 420305239-001A, SC/MP Microprocessor Application Handbook. Does someone happen to have scans of this book? Thanks in advance. Holger From lists at databasics.us Sat May 23 04:25:32 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 23:25:32 -1000 Subject: OT-ish, Museums and MP3s Re: Museum interpretations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A17C10C.1080503@databasics.us> Richard wrote: Free trumps ideology. Amateur. Free *IS* ideology. Warren From lists at databasics.us Sat May 23 05:34:38 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 00:34:38 -1000 Subject: OT-ish, Museums and MP3s Re: Museum interpretations (was: With great sorrow) In-Reply-To: <20090521134640.B90502@shell.lmi.net> References: <20090521134640.B90502@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4A17D13E.1040506@databasics.us> Fred Cisin wrote: On Thu, 21 May 2009, William Donzelli wrote: > > Microsoft bashing stopped being funny about 10 years ago. . . . but they keep creating more stuff to bash! Nevertheless, traffic on this list should stick to bashing only VINTAGE Microsoft product. The Microsoft cordless phone should qualify soon. Egad. That's a memory best left repressed... I like your idea of bashing old Microsoft products. By way of example, Microsoft BASIC was so poorly written that GOTO and GOSUB statements all started their scan for line numbers from the top of the program. To me, it seems VERY simple to say "If the line number to jump to is HIGHER than the current line number, start from here, otherwise start from the beginning. Would have saved unknown trillions of clock cycles. AFAIK, they NEVER fixed that little "oopsie." Back in CP/M days, with 8080s at 2 mHz, in an interpreted language, cycles were so precious that people wrote all their most frequently called subroutines at the beginning, and jumped around them. Also, comments took time to ignore in each loop, so were generally stripped out. The combination made the code nearly write-only. Ick. Gordon Eubanks, author of BASIC-E and CBASIC, wrote a much better program. It compiled to an intermediate file, a rather efficient coding, meaning that comments caused no delay to the code, and references were set at compile time. Also, BASIC-E was public domain, and CBASIC was only $150, while Microsoft BASIC was $450. Managers often bought software back then, and when they saw the two, the comment was generally "We can't afford to scrimp, get the expensive one." I told Gordon he'd probably be way richer if he had on priced CBASIC at three times the price he chose. He agreed, but didn't look too happy. Of course, we were in his excellent living room, looking over the Pacific Palisades on Oahu, Hawaii, so it's not like he was hurting, but still. Of course, if quality were the deciding factor, the Processor Technology Sol computer would have ruled until the IBM PC gave it a run for its money... But, sadly, quality of the product is somewhere around the fifth or sixth most important factor for the success of a tech company. Coming from the engineering side, I always rooted for the outrageously well designed products, such as the HPs until recently. It just left me continually in a vaguely disappointed state of mind. Warren From lists at databasics.us Sat May 23 05:38:53 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 00:38:53 -1000 Subject: Jones plugs with 40 pins In-Reply-To: <128101c9da5a$20272d40$71ce19bb@desktaba> References: <1242934752.4200.116.camel@elric> <128101c9da5a$20272d40$71ce19bb@desktaba> Message-ID: <4A17D23D.9060705@databasics.us> Alexandre Souza wrote: Just for curiosity: Almost everyone here is a ham? :o) Yeah, except for the ones who are into amateur radio. Warren (Sorry - English linguistic humor. Calling someone a "ham" generally means someone (often an actor) who just LOVES attention.) From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat May 23 05:56:57 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 12:56:57 +0200 (CEST) Subject: HP1000 available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 21 May 2009, Tony Duell wrote: > But it appears fate has decided I am not going to get an HP1000. On 3 Well, you could have one from us for free, but it's pickup only in southern Germany. Christian From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sat May 23 08:46:59 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 09:46:59 -0400 Subject: Washing machine drives, was Re: BA123's as furniture. . . In-Reply-To: <4A1702EA.2070905@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <200905231347.n4NDl9Sk056629@keith.ezwind.net> On Fri, 22 May 2009 15:14:19 -0500 (CDT), Doc wrote: >> So has anybody come across any plausible stories about having to clean >> washing detergent out of free-standing pack-based disk drives? > No, but I thought I was going to have to pay for laundering my >neighbor's pants, the first time he heard an RA60 spin up. > He was appropriately awed at the size of the 11/84, the RA60, and the >drive packs, and interested as hell watching me load the pack and start >the machine. > When the RA60 started spooling up he started looking at it sort of >funny (they wind up like a jet turbine if you never heard one). When >the heads unlocked, he made the other end of the garage in one jump. :-) Many years ago while on a service call at the Detroit Free Press, I witnessed a head crash on the composing room system, the drive spun up, the heads unlocked, than there was a big Boom when the pack turned to a large cloud of dust and set off the Halon system. Luck for me I was around the corner working on an Autocon scanner and outside of the blast. After that I always took a few steps back when one spun up near me. This earned me some strangs looks from time to time. I would respond to these looks with the questions, Have you ever seen a pack blow up? I have and was very happy I was not standing close to it at the time ! Many years later when I tried to put too much horsepower through a clutch, and it blewup at about 8k rpm. When asked what it was like, I said it went off like a head crash on an old washing machine style disk rive. Very few had any idea what I was talking about. But they are the two bigest booms, I have ever seen that only involved kenitic energy with no oxidizer or combustion to assist. The other Bob From rogpugh at mac.com Sat May 23 09:14:07 2009 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 15:14:07 +0100 Subject: Anyone interested in an Amstrad PCW? In-Reply-To: <1243068579.4200.122.camel@elric> References: <575131af0905221106g49b76901ne6d77fa931994e2d@mail.gmail.com> <4A168D51.9322.152E4978@cclist.sydex.com> <1243068579.4200.122.camel@elric> Message-ID: <017b98888151168cfdcb0305c7e753f8@mac.com> > > I often considered gutting mine and recasing it - as a certain > North-East collector might put it "rare as paving slabs" - with a > smaller (maybe 9") monitor, upping the RAM to the full-fat 512k and > maybe a 3.5" disk. Hmmm - I've got a knackered Mac Classic kicking > around and a few 9" CCTV monitors... > > The thing that puts me off removing it from my Mum's attic is it takes > up a lot of space for something I wouldn't use that much. > > Gordon Then there are the five "new in box" 9512plus models i have in storage, complete with daisy wheel printers software and keyboards!! Roger From db at db.net Sat May 23 09:26:52 2009 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 10:26:52 -0400 Subject: Washing machine drives, was Re: BA123's as furniture. . . In-Reply-To: <200905231347.n4NDl9Sk056629@keith.ezwind.net> References: <4A1702EA.2070905@vaxen.net> <200905231347.n4NDl9Sk056629@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20090523142652.GA28185@night.db.net> On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 09:46:59AM -0400, Bob Bradlee wrote: > On Fri, 22 May 2009 15:14:19 -0500 (CDT), Doc wrote: > ... > >the heads unlocked, he made the other end of the garage in one jump. :-) > > Many years ago while on a service call at the Detroit Free Press, I witnessed a head crash > on the composing room system, the drive spun up, the heads unlocked, than there was a big Boom > when the pack turned to a large cloud of dust and set off the Halon system. > Luck for me I was around the corner working on an Autocon scanner and outside of the blast. > I have never seen them head crash, but I was lucky enough to see the aftermath. I walked in one morning to see the technician with a set of heads on the table and a voice coil actuator in his arms, I think the voice coil was about as big as my arm or leg. It looked huge to me. I am afraid I don't remember which drive it was, but it was one of the large CDC drives with umpteen many platters. It was about the largest around at the time. - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From rickb at bensene.com Sat May 23 09:35:29 2009 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 07:35:29 -0700 Subject: Washing machine drives In-Reply-To: <200905231347.n4NDl9Sk056629@keith.ezwind.net> References: <4A1702EA.2070905@vaxen.net> <200905231347.n4NDl9Sk056629@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > Many years ago while on a service call at the Detroit Free Press, I > witnessed a head crash > One of my first jobs was as a weekend operator for Tektronix' CDC Cyber 73 computer. The machine was powered off at night. At around 9PM each night, the entire system was powered down. Weekend operations started up a 8AM on Saturday until 6PM, then Sunday from 9AM until 6PM. When I'd come in, the machine was turned off, and I had to go through the long rows of CDC "washing machine" type disk drives and power them up one at a time. Couldn't power up more than one at a time, as the surge load would cause breakers to pop, and that was definitely not a good thing as a drive is spinning up. I'd have to hit the power on the drive, and wait about 45 seconds for the drive to spin up enough that the main surge was over with before I could hit the power switch for the next drive. It was New Year's Day (don't remember the exact year..probably late '70's...maybe 1978). It was a Saturday or Sunday, can't remember for sure. Anyway, I came in and started the power up routine. I had powered up four or five of the drives when suddenly, the first drive that I'd powered up started making a very strange shrieking noise, followed very quickly by a very loud BANG!, then what sounded like the aftermath of an auto accident. I looked back at the drive (I was perhaps 6 feet from it when this happened), and it was engulfed in a cloud of smoke. Immediately thereafter, the klaxon went off indicating that a Halon dump was imminent. I didn't know if the smoke was from something on fire in the drive, or just from the headcrash, so I bolted out of the room as fast as I could and let the Halon dump. I didn't want to take the chance that there was a fire, and have it spread. When the Halon dumped, the fire system automatically contacted the fire station that was next door to the Tektronix campus. I waited outside the room until the firemen showed up, less than 2 minutes from when the Halon dumped. They went in with respirators and checked to make sure that there was no fire. Everything was OK, although the area around the disk drive had small shards of a metallic substance on the floor. They set up fans and aired out the room. I was then able to go back in. My Lord, what a mess. It appeared that the disk pack suffered a catastrophic failure. Don't know if it was because of a head crash, bearing failure, or simply a pack failure. Whatever it was, it completely destroyed the drive. The CDC drive (can't remember the model number, unfortunately) was very well-built. The enclosure for the pack was a huge metal casting with very thick walls, acting as a scattershield for the pack. The shards of metal around the drive were not from the pack, but apparently from the motor, which stopped very violently and broke its mounts. The pack was reduced to bits, which were all contained within the drive enclosure. The smoked Plexiglas window in the lid of the drive that allowed a view of the pack looked like it had been shot with a shotgun, but didn't break. It was very thick Plexiglas. I called our CDC rep -- we had two onsite engineers that were devoted to the support of our system. Come to think of it, it was a Sunday (so it had to be 1978), because one of them was at church and couldn't be reached, though he was paged. I also called my boss, who had partied the night before as a result of the New Year's holiday. He said to hold off trying to do anything until he got there. After about an hour, one of the CDC guys showed up, followed shortly thereafter by my boss, who looked a little worse for the wear :-). The CDC tech. removed the drive from the chain, cleaned up the mess, and made sure that the other drives were OK. The drive that failed had the boot pack on it, so we had to change the switch-based boot program (an array of toggle switches that contained the PPU code to coldstart the machine from tape, which then read in a disk book loader to boot from disk), and mount a backup boot pack on one of the other drives. We were able to bring up the system just fine, and do normal operations for the day. Later in the day, a replacement disk drive was received, the system downed, the new drive put in place, and we resumed normal operation. According to the CDC rep., the failed drive was a total loss. Thank God that the drives were so well-built. I can't imagine what would have happened to me if pieces flew out of containment. I always had a lot more respect for these drives after that event. Rick Bensene From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat May 23 09:37:40 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 07:37:40 -0700 Subject: FA: Synertek SYM In-Reply-To: <4A17AD33.6060809@brouhaha.com> References: <4A125DFF.8070401@softjar.se> <184EA6D5-30D8-4ADF-9E02-E7831708BF7B@neurotica.com> <4A16D836.1020403@cimmeri.com> <4A16F50C.4090007@cimmeri.com> <4A17AD33.6060809@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 01:00:51 -0700 > From: eric at brouhaha.com > To: > Subject: Re: FA: Synertek SYM > > Dwight wrote: >> But it doesn't come with a FDC-1 board or a KTM2. > And if someone offered you a Delorean, I suppose you'd complain that it > didn't come with a flux capacitor. :-) > Hi If given the choise between a Delorean and a Lotus Europa with the twin cam, I'd take the Lotus but if the Delorean came with the flux capacitor I'd be tempted. It is a nice Sym board though, just bare bones. No extra ROMs, I/O or extra RAM. It is an early board as well. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail? goes with you. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Mobile1_052009 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat May 23 09:57:11 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 07:57:11 -0700 Subject: 18b computers (was: something much longer and unrelated) In-Reply-To: <4A164B76.6080406@pacbell.net> References: <4A15BE9B.6090608@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A15D52B.7020101@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A162773.5030402@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A164B76.6080406@pacbell.net> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 01:51:34 -0500 > From: frustum at pacbell.net > To: > Subject: 18b computers (was: something much longer and unrelated) > > [changed the subject line due to drift] > > > bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > ... >> Grumbles at the lack of 9 bit wide ram chips > > If solving that problem is a hurdle, you have much bigger problems that > you don't know about yet. :-) > >>... No matter how you look at it >> any kind of 18 bit computer has power compared to a 16 bit or less cpu. > > I think you are in love with the idea more than an actual computer. > > It is trivial to imagine an anemic 18b computer that doesn't compare > well to a decent 16 bitter. > > I worked on/helped design a CPU that used 9b bytes, with a 72b word > size. We sold a few million chips, which in the market we were in was a > miserable failure (this was in the mid 90s). The company was Chromatic > Research, and the first chip was called MPACT 1. That was followed up a > couple years later with MPACT 2. > > The 9 bittedness came about because our memory system was based on > Rambus memory. We were one of the early adopters, due to the fact that > Chromatic Research and Rambus had a common founder, Mike Farmwald. At > the time, all Rambus parts were x9, so the 9th bit was supposedly "free" > and we might was well take advantage of it. > 9th bit was often used for parity. I had a PC once with parity that used 3 bit chips on the SIMMs. Nicolet used a 20 bit computer as a balance between dynamic range, for signal processing, and cost of core memory ( although I wish it was 24 bits ). Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail? goes with you. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Mobile1_052009 From js at cimmeri.com Sat May 23 10:18:31 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 10:18:31 -0500 Subject: FA: Synertek SYM In-Reply-To: References: <4A125DFF.8070401@softjar.se> <184EA6D5-30D8-4ADF-9E02-E7831708BF7B@neurotica.com> <4A16D836.1020403@cimmeri.com> <4A16F50C.4090007@cimmeri.com> <4A17AD33.6060809@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4A1813C7.9080606@cimmeri.com> dwight elvey wrote: > >> Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 01:00:51 -0700 >> From: eric at brouhaha.com >> To: >> Subject: Re: FA: Synertek SYM >> >> Dwight wrote: >> >>> But it doesn't come with a FDC-1 board or a KTM2. >>> >> And if someone offered you a Delorean, I suppose you'd complain that it >> didn't come with a flux capacitor. :-) >> > > Hi > If given the choise between a Delorean and a Lotus Europa with > the twin cam, I'd take the Lotus but if the Delorean came with > the flux capacitor I'd be tempted. > It is a nice Sym board though, just bare bones. > No extra ROMs, I/O or extra RAM. It is an early board > as well. > Dwight Thanks. Btw, adding the RAM, ROM, and a Commodore C1541 drive are all trivial. I have the RAM for it already. jS From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat May 23 10:22:46 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 11:22:46 -0400 Subject: FA: Synertek SYM In-Reply-To: <4A1813C7.9080606@cimmeri.com> References: <4A125DFF.8070401@softjar.se> <184EA6D5-30D8-4ADF-9E02-E7831708BF7B@neurotica.com> <4A16D836.1020403@cimmeri.com> <4A16F50C.4090007@cimmeri.com> <4A17AD33.6060809@brouhaha.com> <4A1813C7.9080606@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <57215137-56E1-48DF-879A-1F8CF6340F29@neurotica.com> On May 23, 2009, at 11:18 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > Thanks. Btw, adding the RAM, ROM, and a Commodore C1541 drive are > all trivial. I have the RAM for it already. Putting a 1541 on a SYM? Seriously? (I don't know much about SYMs...I drooled over them in magazine ads throughout my childhood, but have never seen one in person.) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From js at cimmeri.com Sat May 23 10:43:56 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 10:43:56 -0500 Subject: FA: Synertek SYM In-Reply-To: <57215137-56E1-48DF-879A-1F8CF6340F29@neurotica.com> References: <4A125DFF.8070401@softjar.se> <184EA6D5-30D8-4ADF-9E02-E7831708BF7B@neurotica.com> <4A16D836.1020403@cimmeri.com> <4A16F50C.4090007@cimmeri.com> <4A17AD33.6060809@brouhaha.com> <4A1813C7.9080606@cimmeri.com> <57215137-56E1-48DF-879A-1F8CF6340F29@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A1819BC.4090401@cimmeri.com> > Putting a 1541 on a SYM? Seriously? (I don't know much about > SYMs...I drooled over them in magazine ads throughout my childhood, > but have never seen one in person.) > > -Dave Yep. Check out: http://6502.org/users/dallas/ jS From hamren at sdu.se Sat May 23 11:20:24 2009 From: hamren at sdu.se (Lars Hamren) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 18:20:24 +0200 Subject: SC/MP docs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A182248.9010706@sdu.se> I have, in paper form, a 420305239-001A, SC/MP Microprocessor Application Handbook, Feb 77 You can have it for free, on the sole condition that you scan it and put it online. I'll even cover the cost of shipping from Sweden to Germany. /Lars From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat May 23 11:25:02 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 18:25:02 +0200 Subject: Washing machine drives, was Re: BA123's as furniture. . . In-Reply-To: <4A1702EA.2070905@vaxen.net> References: <8CBA8AC53B1B0B3-B34-309B@webmail-db06.sysops.aol.com> <20090522094124.f739beec.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4A16FE0B.7040006@crash.com> <4A1702EA.2070905@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <20090523182502.b133cb6b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 22 May 2009 15:14:19 -0500 (CDT) Doc wrote: > When the RA60 started spooling up he started looking at it sort of > funny (they wind up like a jet turbine if you never heard one). Once I listened to the startup of the 400 Hz motor-generator at http://www.cray-cyber.org/ The thing needs 400 V three phase and at startup (about one minute) it draws a current of 120 A. That is 83 kW. 83 kW just to power on the "PSU" of a single computer. Quite impressive sound. Several years ago a friend asked me "Is this sound normal?". He switched on a PeeCee with an old Seagate 5.25" FH SCSI disk. (It was at a time when 3.5" disks where common.) Typical spin up sound and when nominal RPM was reached: "BING!" A sound like someone had hit a disk plater with a hammer. I just pointed to the big solenoid on the drive and explained that this was the head-lock mechanism... Big eyes staring into my face and: "You are kidding?" He just couldn't belive... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From steve at cosam.org Sat May 23 11:52:46 2009 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 18:52:46 +0200 Subject: NSC Qbus memory module Message-ID: <95838e090905230952l38c7f15eh77aa7dd70375071@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, I'm looking for information on a National Semiconductor memory module for Qbus PDP-11s. It is marked with 980110014-221 REV-E. I've uploaded a photo of it here: http://www.cosam.org/images/nsc4m.jpg I know it's a 4Mbyte (or thereabouts) card and it works fine with the KDJ11-A (11/73) it came with. It however won't work with a KDJ11-B (11/83) I picked up recently - the onboard diagnostic LEDs report 53, which corresponds to memory address 0. The KDJ11-B does however work fine with a MSV11-P. There are plenty of jumpers and wire wrap posts on the NSC board but, as it's always worked in its original configuration, I've never needed to figure out what the all did. Any documentation or pointers much appreciated. Then again: if anyone's got some PMI memory boards they don't need, I'm all ears! Cheers, -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat May 23 12:28:10 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 10:28:10 -0700 Subject: FA: Synertek SYM In-Reply-To: <4A1819BC.4090401@cimmeri.com> References: <4A125DFF.8070401@softjar.se> <184EA6D5-30D8-4ADF-9E02-E7831708BF7B@neurotica.com> <4A16D836.1020403@cimmeri.com> <4A16F50C.4090007@cimmeri.com> <4A17AD33.6060809@brouhaha.com> <4A1813C7.9080606@cimmeri.com> <57215137-56E1-48DF-879A-1F8CF6340F29@neurotica.com> <4A1819BC.4090401@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 10:43:56 -0500 > From: js at cimmeri.com > To: > Subject: Re: FA: Synertek SYM > > >> Putting a 1541 on a SYM? Seriously? (I don't know much about >> SYMs...I drooled over them in magazine ads throughout my childhood, >> but have never seen one in person.) >> >> -Dave > Yep. Check out: > http://6502.org/users/dallas/ > > jS The 6502.org is a great place for SYM info. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail? has a new way to see what's up with your friends. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/WhatsNew?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_WhatsNew1_052009 From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat May 23 12:34:17 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 13:34:17 -0400 Subject: FA: Synertek SYM In-Reply-To: <4A1819BC.4090401@cimmeri.com> References: <4A125DFF.8070401@softjar.se> <184EA6D5-30D8-4ADF-9E02-E7831708BF7B@neurotica.com> <4A16D836.1020403@cimmeri.com> <4A16F50C.4090007@cimmeri.com> <4A17AD33.6060809@brouhaha.com> <4A1813C7.9080606@cimmeri.com> <57215137-56E1-48DF-879A-1F8CF6340F29@neurotica.com> <4A1819BC.4090401@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <0E20C071-BA89-40F7-8876-C32EB9FCAB90@neurotica.com> On May 23, 2009, at 11:43 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: >> Putting a 1541 on a SYM? Seriously? (I don't know much about >> SYMs...I drooled over them in magazine ads throughout my >> childhood, but have never seen one in person.) >> > Yep. Check out: > http://6502.org/users/dallas/ Oh My. That is simply amazing. What do you want for that SYM again? =) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 23 12:36:49 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 10:36:49 -0700 Subject: Washing machine drives In-Reply-To: References: <4A1702EA.2070905@vaxen.net>, <200905231347.n4NDl9Sk056629@keith.ezwind.net>, Message-ID: <4A17D1C1.10103.1A21C4B0@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 May 2009 at 7:35, Rick Bensene wrote: > Whatever it was, it completely destroyed the drive. The CDC drive > (can't remember the model number, unfortunately) was very well-built. Given the time, it sounds like an 844; the only other pack drive that I can recall from that period was the 854, which was more the size of an IBM 2311 (not used much on 6000/Cyber 70 because it had 256 8-bit byte-sized sectors hard-wired onto it and standard sector size for the CDC gear was 644 6-bit characters. Two 854 sectors for one 6000 sector left much of the drive empty). We were on a project that used farms of the 844s (over 100 was typical) when they were still very new. (The contract had originally been spec-ed for the new, but ill-fated 821 4-spindle fixed-disk drive, along the lines of an 808, but the 821 performed so unreliably and cost so much that it was scrapped. I used to have a platter from one, but still have a head). I used to have a memo from one of the Comsource night operators detailing his experience with running our benchmark. It started off something like this "I mounted all of the packs and started the benchmark, but then got an error on unit xx. When I went to the drive it was making a funny sound, so I moved the pack to unit yy, which then started making a funny sound, so I got the backup pack and mounted it on unit xx...") The eventual toll was something like 11 packs and 7 drives. The blow-by-blow account of the disaster reminded me of the Gerard Hoffnung story about the workman filing an accident report after he'd tried to lower a barrel of bricks from a rooftop. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 23 12:21:32 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 18:21:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: <20090522164431.E42782@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 22, 9 04:47:15 pm Message-ID: [ Video connector with pins like this : o o o o o o o o ] > I had some Sony B&W reel to reel video gear that had those. They had s/had/have/ in my case :-). Getting replacement heads is decidedly non-trivial, but you can modify the head beam to take Betamax head tips (take them off a Betamax head disk, although where you find those now is another matter). As a totakl OT aside, the portable reel-to-reel Sony VTR I have (which doesn't have one of these connecotrs...) has a nesty design flaw. The head beam mounts on a disk on the main motor sindle, the heads rotate in slot between the upper and lower drums (which are fixed). The problem is that the nut holding that disk to the motor spindle is a normal right-hand thead, with the result the nut can work loose in normal operation, When this happens, the disk wobbles all over the place, the head tips hit the edge of the upper drum and break off. Had they used a left-hand thread, I would have not had to rebuild said head beam. > "Honda" written on them, and I have heard them referred to as "Honda > plugs", but I am almost certain that that was never the correct name for > them. Much as the Microribbon connecotrs are called 'Amphenol plugs' in some books,. I guess. To make this marginally more on topic. I have an NEC RGB monitor that used to have such a connector on the back. Years ago I modified it to take RGBI (CGA) video and replaced the connector with a DE9. I probably still have the 8 pin connecotr I removed, just don't expect me to find it any time soon. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 23 12:23:06 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 18:23:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: Why is TC08 better than TD8e Re: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at May 22, 9 08:08:13 pm Message-ID: > Wow, problems that fix themselves! ;) Yeah, they're old enough IMHO that's the worst tpye of fault. You can never know a fault has been fixed until you've found the fault and corrected the problem. If it fixes itself, you can't do that (you can't find a fault that's not there at the time),. but it will come back, problably at the least convenient time.. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 23 12:32:09 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 18:32:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Jones plugs with 40 pins In-Reply-To: <4A17D23D.9060705@databasics.us> from "Warren Wolfe" at May 23, 9 00:38:53 am Message-ID: > > Alexandre Souza wrote: > > Just for curiosity: Almost everyone here is a ham? :o) > > > Yeah, except for the ones who are into amateur radio. :-) > > > Warren > > > > (Sorry - English linguistic humor. Calling someone a "ham" generally > means someone (often an actor) who just LOVES attention.) I'm currently re-reading a book on clock repairing [1] by a chap called Eric Smith (not our Eric Smith AFAIK). In said book he talks about the 'Horological Ham;', who seems to be the equivalent to old clocks as most of us are to old computers :-) [1] Another of my interests... -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat May 23 13:04:56 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 14:04:56 -0400 Subject: Washing machine drives In-Reply-To: References: <4A1702EA.2070905@vaxen.net> <200905231347.n4NDl9Sk056629@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > When I'd come in, the machine was turned off, and I had to go through > the long rows of CDC "washing machine" type disk drives and power them > up one at a time. ?Couldn't power up more than one at a time, as the > surge load would cause breakers to pop, and that was definitely not a > good thing as a drive is spinning up. ?I'd have to hit the power on the > drive, and wait about 45 seconds for the drive to spin up enough that > the main surge was over with before I could hit the power switch for the > next drive. CDC installations were not power sequenced? Or just Teks? -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat May 23 13:11:00 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 14:11:00 -0400 Subject: Jones plugs In-Reply-To: <4A16F31D.551FF99C@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4A16F31D.551FF99C@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > The 40-pin requirement is pretty unusual. 4,6,8,10,12,15,18 pin are very common, > popularity starts to drop off sharply after that in IME. It might be possible > to trim & combine a combination of some more common plugs to fit, particularly > if the the actual needs for the task don't require all 40 pins. I seem to think that some of the 1950s mobile radio gear had big Jones plugs - that might be a source. I have checked my bin - none here. > A current Cinch-Jones catalog from the web shows connectors up to 33 pins. > Either the 40-pin has been dropped over the years, it was something special for > IBM, or it's not a Jones connector but something close/similar. Like D shell connectors, there are literally thousands of valid configurations, with a relatively small percentage being standard stock items. Getting C-J to do a special run was no big deal, especially for IBM. -- Will From chd_1 at nktelco.net Sat May 23 15:19:35 2009 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 16:19:35 -0400 Subject: Anyone heard of a North Plug or IBM wire relays ... Re: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: References: <462053.13883.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A16F3C5.53BAA472@cs.ubc.ca> <4A1723A0.9060400@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <4A185A57.2010605@nktelco.net> William Donzelli wrote: > Yes, pictures please. > > -- > Will > http://www.chdickman.com/IBM/490-0056/ My recollection was a little fuzzy on some details. The wiring is made up of wires with crimp terminal plugs on the ends and each relay socket terminal has two receptacles for the wires. The relay moving contacts are actuated in a group by a plastic piece connected to the armature. The each moving contact consists of two fine (#30) gold wires. The narrow relays have 4 Form-C contact, the intermediates 6 and the wide ones 12. The plug and terminal strip are not part of the base socket frame, but were likely made by us and then added to the frame. The date code on the chassis says 1976, so this is probably the last one built and then cannibalized for relays to send to customers. After looking at it, I wish that it still had the full compliment of relays. It might be interesting to make something out of it. -chuck From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat May 23 15:19:18 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 13:19:18 -0700 Subject: unknown teletype at "The Funny Farm" in Bend, OR Message-ID: <0550BDD0-87DB-4B77-AFC5-A2B83122D24A@mail.msu.edu> Saw this while sightseeing on my tour of odd attractions in Oregon. Not sure what model; it's older than an ASR 33. Has papertape punch, very dirty. Not sure how long it'll be there. Won't fit in my car... Address is 64990 Deschutes Mkt Rd in Bend. Just thought someone might be interested. I have a pic, but I'm writing this from my phone so can't upload it yet :). Josh From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat May 23 18:32:48 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 16:32:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090523162946.K82083@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 23 May 2009, Tony Duell wrote: > [ Video connector with pins like this : > o o o o > o o o o > . . . > To make this marginally more on topic. I have an NEC RGB monitor that > used to have such a connector on the back. Years ago I modified it to > take RGBI (CGA) video and replaced the connector with a DE9. I probably > still have the 8 pin connecotr I removed, just don't expect me to find it > any time soon. The little Sony monitor/TV from that reeel to reel setup also had a full size "UHF coax" connector. I used that for the video for my first TRS80. Saved $200 ($400 v $600) by buying it without their monitor and tape recorder. From rickb at bensene.com Sat May 23 19:06:32 2009 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 17:06:32 -0700 Subject: Washing machine drives In-Reply-To: References: <4A1702EA.2070905@vaxen.net><200905231347.n4NDl9Sk056629@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Will wrote: > CDC installations were not power sequenced? Or just Tek's? Don't know if sequencing was the norm for CDC machines of this vintage or not. At Tek, there was no automation that powered things up in the correct order. The motor-generator in the basement was left running all the time, but during non-operation times, everything else was powered off. I know it made a big difference in the electricity bill to power down during off hours versus leaving the system running. The room also had two Modcomp communications processors that served as the serial front-ends for the Cyber, and a VAX 11/780 that ran VMS during the day, and Berkeley Unix (4.x) during the night. The Modcomps and the VAX ran all the time. The Modcomp and VAX serial lines hooked to some kind of port contender that had a massive panel of serial connections patched into it for all of the terminals scattered around the campus. Also in the room was a huge Calcomp flat-bed plotter that was an offline device. It had a 9-track tape drive attached to it, so any plotter runs required that a tape be cut, put on the Calcomp, and then run. The plotter used pressurized ink (red, green, blue & black), which was a bit of a mess to top off. It made beautiful plots on Mylar, though. I still have a "spirograph" plot that I made with a Fortran program on the Cyber. I think that there were a number of PDP 11 systems in there too...I think that there was an 11/70 or two, and maybe an 11/45. I didn't do anything with the DEC stuff, my job centered around the Cyber. IIRC, the sequence for bringing up the Cyber was: First the CPU chiller was powered up, then the disk drives, then the printer & controller, then the magtape drives (one 7-track and three 9-tracks) and controller, then the punched card reader/punch and controller, then the CPU. The boot magtape was mounted, the deadstart panel checked to make sure that the bootstrap routine was correct, then the coldstart button (located in the center of the console (with the two round vector tubes), beneath the CRT's) was pressed. If all went well, the tape drive ran for a bit, then the boot pack would hammer for a while, and then KRONOS would be running. There were a few operator commands necessary to put the machine into multiuser mode, and that was it. All told, the process took about 45 minutes or so. Funny how people complain today when their computers take a minute to boot up. Rick From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat May 23 20:17:56 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 18:17:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs Message-ID: <858585.54349.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > [ Video connector with pins like this > : > > ? o o o???o > ? o o o???o > ] Yeah - that's the plug I was referring to! I just recently picked up a nice 25" Mitsubishi television set that has one of these connectors on it for RGB, along with the usual composite video connectors. I also have several small monitors that use these plugs as well. If I can track down an inexpensive source of these connectors, it would be really handy to be able to use these monitors with other video sources, such as any number of old computers that use 15.75khz RGB video. -Ian From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Sat May 23 20:51:19 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 18:51:19 -0700 Subject: S-100 power supply transformer References: <000701c9d84c$32823d00$0201a8c0@hal9000> <002601c9d8c9$8d933230$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <000d01c9dc12$22876370$0201a8c0@hal9000> Taken from Stancor Transformer Design Guidelines Page 7 The formula for the relation between secondary RMS current (IAC) which the transformer has to deliver and the D.C. output current taken from the rectifier (IDC) is: IAC = KFF x IDC where KFF is the form factor. The factor for each circuit and type of load is as follows: Capacitor Load Form Factor Rectifier Circuit 1.2 FWCT ( Full Wave Center Tap ) 1.8 FWB ( Full Wave Bridge ) How can you say the rectifier topology doesn?t matter ? Best regards, Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: "dwight elvey" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 6:52 AM Subject: RE: S-100 power supply transformer Hi Wow, it just goes to show that you can't believe everything you read. What a bunch of bull. While I'm sure most of the book is quite useful, this part if flat wrong. Ever wonder why every high power switcher I've ever seen used a center taped transformer? I guess those engineers never read this book. Lets take things one at a time. First, it is correct that the voltage is half but that is just a matter of doubling the turns on each winding. Now the next part. Each winding carries current for only half the time( so far ok ). Now for the point of deviation. Why would the current be double? It takes two pulses of current during each cycle to charge the capacitor. Does it make any difference were that current came from? Even a more important question is where did double the current go? Seems like there is a rule for current that says what goes in must come out ( Nortons rule as I recall ). For the bridge circuit, there are two pulse of current per cycle. Each one of these pulse is split into the two halves of the center tapped. Each pulse is exactly the same current except one is on each leg of the center tapped transformer ( again Norton rule demands it ). This means that each half of the winding has half the power of the single winding ( assuming that the windings are the same resistance ). The number he states as 1.4 is completely bogus. Please do think it through. To have the same loss in the secondary, the winding have to be exactly 2 times as much wire but being the low voltage windings in our case, they are just not that much bigger on the transformer. All I can say is WOW, what a blupper!!! Dwight ---------------------------------------- > From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: S-100 power supply transformer > Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 14:34:12 -0700 > > > > I respectfully disagree. ? In a center-tapped full-wave rectifier circuit > the output voltage is half what you get if you use a bridge rectifier. It is > not the most efficient circuit in terms of transformer design, because each > half of the secondary is used only half the time. Thus the current through > the winding during that time is twice what it would be for a true full-wave > circuit. Heating in the windings, using Ohm?s law, is I^2R, so you have four > times the heating half the time, or twice the average heating of an > equivalent full-wave bridge rectifier circuit. You would have to choose a > transformer with a current rating 1.4 times as large as compared with the > ( better ) bridge circuit; besides costing more, the resulting supply would > be bulkier and heavier ?. from the good book ? ? The art of Electronics ? > > > > The disadvantage of a bridge is two diode voltage drops. Diodes are a lot > cheaper than transformers though. > > > > Best regards, Steven > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Hi > This is the result of when the current actually flows. > It only flows when the voltage is near the peak. This > changes the average power dissipated in the secondary winding > ( the VA rating ). > Altough, the 1.414 is the worst value and the real value > is somewhere between 1 and 1.414. > It make no difference what type of rectification is used, > fullwave bridge or center tap. Watts are watts and there is > no way around it. It is true that the load current rating > is halved for the secondary turns for the center tapped > fullwave rectification but the VA rating of the transformer > remains the same. > I'm not sure what the book you reference says. I do > know how power is calculated and it is always the vectored > volts times amps. The current flows out of the transformer > when the output voltage is close to the peak. This means > that the rms current of the secondary needs to be compensated > to account for when the current actually flows. > If your transformer has a secondary rated at 10 amps that > can only feed a rectifier and capacitor filter of 7.07 amps. > That would change if feeding a inductive filter because of > when the current flows. > If it was a center tapped with two diodes, it would be > 14.14 amps instead of 20 amps. Still, the VA rating of the > transformer does change. > Dwight > > > ---------------------------------------- >> From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net >> To: cctech at classiccmp.org; cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: S-100 power supply transformer >> Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 23:36:52 -0700 >> >> Dwight, >> >> I think a little explanation is in order, otherwise your info borders on >> incorrect. You need to increase the CURRENT rating of the transformer by >> 1.4, but this only applies to a full wave rectifier topology and not a > full >> wave BRIDGE topology. >> >> reference: The holy book " The art of electronics " page 47 >> >> Best regards, Steven >> >> >>> ---------------------------------------- >>>> From: lynchaj at yahoo.com >>>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >>>> Subject: S-100 power supply transformer >>>> Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 16:51:44 -0400 >>>> >>>> Hi! Does anyone know of an available transformer suitable for making an >>>> S-100 power supply? I need 120VAC input and 10VAC output and +/- 18VAC >>>> outputs. >>>> >>>> The best I solution I can find is two separate 80VA transformers; one >>>> parallel 10VAC output and another 36VCT output which can be configured >> for >>>> +/-18VAC outputs. >>>> >>> ---snip--- >>> >>> Hi >>> What you want is an 8 volt and a 13.5 volt AC. You forget >>> that the DC voltage is created from the peaks not the RMS >>> average. You have to account for diode drop as well. >>> That is how I got the numbers. I assumed full wave rectification >>> and .6v per diode. >>> Dwight >>> >> >> Hi >> I forgot to mention. You need to derate the transformer >> as well. The problem is that the current flows when the >> voltage is the highest ( or close to it ). The math is a little >> complicated but it means you need to increase the rating of >> the transformer by at least 1.414. >> If you can't find a transformer with the right windings, >> I recommend looking at toroidal transformers. These can >> easily have turns added to increase or buck the voltage >> of the secondary. >> Dwight From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sat May 23 21:38:48 2009 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 19:38:48 -0700 Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: <858585.54349.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <858585.54349.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A18B338.1080304@sbcglobal.net> Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> [ Video connector with pins like this >> : >> >> o o o o >> o o o o >> ] >> > > Yeah - that's the plug I was referring to! I just recently picked up a nice 25" Mitsubishi television set that has one of these connectors on it for RGB, along with the usual composite video connectors. I also have several small monitors that use these plugs as well. If I can track down an inexpensive source of these connectors, it would be really handy to be able to use these monitors with other video sources, such as any number of old computers that use 15.75khz RGB video. > > -Ian > Those are the EIAJ E8MCM connectors widely used on older video equipment and monitors. I'm sure you can find them here: www.markertek.com They were used on old Sony reel to reel video recorders (that used 1/2" tape) along with their composite monitors. They normally had a composite video input and output plus a mono audio input and output. Somewhere I have the pinout but I'm sure Google will turn it up if needed. Bob From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sat May 23 10:12:27 2009 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 10:12:27 -0500 Subject: Anyone heard of a North Plug or IBM wire relays ... Re: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs References: <462053.13883.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A16F3C5.53BAA472@cs.ubc.ca> <4A1723A0.9060400@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <016301c9dbb8$e4fb2720$6400a8c0@acerd3c08b49af> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles H Dickman" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 5:13 PM Subject: Anyone heard of a North Plug or IBM wire relays ... Re: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs > William Donzelli wrote: >>> There are two series of "Jones connectors", a large pin series and a >>> small-pin >>> series. One may also hear them referred to as Cinch connectors or >>> Cinch-Jones >>> connectors. The large-pin is the 2400 series and the small-pin the 300 >>> series. >>> >> >> There is a third series, with very large (about 3/8 inch wide) pins. >> >> -- >> Will >> > In the early 60's a machine control my employer used on a can-end making > stamping presses (think pull-top beer cans) was built using IBM "wire" > relays. The IBM sourced chassis had an array of sockets for the relays > with a wirewrap (?) backplane. The chassis was connected to the machine > with a large multi-blade connector very similar to the Jones connectors > that have been talked about, although smaller in size, they were larger in > contact count. The connector was always described as the "North plug". > Our BOM system says it was sourced from North Electrical. > > The "wire" relays were quite simple. They consisted of multiple Form C > contacts. The moving contact was a wire tack welded to the armature. By my > time they had pretty much been replaced by a CD4000 based digital logic > system. Stories were told about the tack weld fatiguing and the wire > contact shorting things in arbitrary ways. Not a desirable feature for a > stamping press control. > > I have been curious about the relays since I found a cannibalized chassis > about 10 years ago, which I still have. I thought that the technology > might have been used on tabulating machines, but I never did any research. > I can take pictures of it to jog memories. > > Anybody (Mr. Donzelli) recall IBM equipment like this? > > -chuck > I'm not sure if these are the same relays or not that IBM used all over the place in everything from keypunches and verifiers (024/026/056) up to 1405 disk drives and who knows what all else. However, the ones I'm familiar with did not have the wires welded to anything. There were 2 wires per contact, usually silver plated that could be slid out, cleaned, and/or replaced by simply slipping them back in through a metal "window" against which they rested and which provided the operating contact. For certain critical applications (e.g. the 1405 where they actually were used IIRC to implement a very slow D/A converter) some of the wires and the posts they contacted were gold plated. The ones I'm familiar with were pluggable as well with rectangular cross section pins. Some pictures would be quite interesting. Later, Charlie Carothers -- My email address is csquared3 at tx dot rr dot com From jws at jwsss.com Sat May 23 14:14:19 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 12:14:19 -0700 Subject: Washing machine drives In-Reply-To: References: <4A1702EA.2070905@vaxen.net> <200905231347.n4NDl9Sk056629@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4A184B0B.1030509@jwsss.com> The University of Missouri, Rolla data center's 2314's were taken out one night when a pack was changed. They had a system with 9 drives and a 360/50. The positioner was hydraulic in the 2314's and it decided when it loaded the heads to fire them on thru the pack out into the machine room. The resulting cloud of debris and hydraulic fluid crashed the remining 8 drives and fried the control unit. The datacenter was on IBM maintainence and was back up in a week. There was an army of IBM'ers in suits there for the entire time. I don't know if Jay recalls this, but it was in either 1972 or 1973. Jim William Donzelli wrote: >> When I'd come in, the machine was turned off, and I had to go through >> the long rows of CDC "washing machine" type disk drives and power them >> up one at a time. Couldn't power up more than one at a time, as the >> surge load would cause breakers to pop, and that was definitely not a >> good thing as a drive is spinning up. I'd have to hit the power on the >> drive, and wait about 45 seconds for the drive to spin up enough that >> the main surge was over with before I could hit the power switch for the >> next drive. >> > > CDC installations were not power sequenced? Or just Teks? > > -- > Will > > > From bqt at softjar.se Sat May 23 17:03:48 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 00:03:48 +0200 Subject: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A1872C4.1050206@softjar.se> Ian King wrote: > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire >> > Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 12:56 PM >> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> > Subject: Re: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing >> > >> > On May 22, 2009, at 1:14 PM, Christian Liendo wrote: >>> > > yea.. I'm sick of the this too.. >>> > > >>> > > You like your computer like a religion, fine.. Let other people >>> > > have their religions too. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > etslay opstay ethay icrosoftmay ashingbay okway? >> > >> > Sure thing. But let's make one thing clear: It's not a religion, >> > as easy as it may be to dismiss it as such. >> > >> > -Dave > > Perhaps not, but the zeal borders on religious - and equally without factual basis. (No disrespect to any religion: the fundamental premise of any religion with which I'm familiar is faith, i.e. belief in that which is not proven.) The problem that I see is that Microsoft advocates usually try to prove that everyone else is wrong without ever considering if they have reason for the bashing. It's a gut reaction, which I'm sure Microsoft loves to see. It's like unconditional buying in to the party line without any questions. And it's mostly by people who actually have very actual experience with anything else. Not saying that this is true for you specifically, Ian. Just noting in general... > Fact: CERT reports just about as many exploits for Linux-derived systems as Windows (at least, that was the data I researched back when I was in grad school three or four years ago). There is a lot of argument (again, mostly rather zealous) about which OS has the more "serious" vulnerabilities, but in any event they ARE flaws. And it's a sad day when people think that CERT is in any way related to quality in any way. CERT first of all are only reporting potential security problems, not quality problems. Second, CERT have had a tendency to not even reveal problems that are reported until after they have been fixed, which gives you both a skewed view, and also don't tell you how much of a problem something really have been. Third, as you note, just using the numbers from CERT don't even tell you if this is a big or a small problem, so what do these numbers really tell you??? Oh, and noone (I hope) is claiming that any OS is without flaws. It's the design flaws that really upsets me (and others, I think). > Fact: The most commonly seen causation for crashes in either Windows or Linux-derived operating systems is defective device drivers. Interestingly, the two operating systems approach this differently. Windows preemptively crashes: the logic is to return the machine to a known state. Linux tries to keep going, which may result in an inexplicable error later on. One can argue the merits of either approach, and I'm sure many do. I don't know where you got that fact from, but anyway. Even assuming that is true, you skip around some big problems here, such as the fact that most people running Windows are doing so with privileges to install a device driver straight away (it's usually connected with big problems using Windows without having privileges), while you normally run without the privilege of installing a device driver in most other systems. However, defect device drivers are certainly a big problem. But what I find to be a bigger problem in Windows are actually incompatible DLL-files. All delivered from Microsoft. And all called the same thing, but different versions. But some programs require one version to work, while another program needs another version, and both are incompatible with the other. So, what do I do then? And this will not cause Windows to crash. But it's a mess anyway. DLL hell ring a bell? > Fact: I have a large box filled with 'Software Revision' release publications for RSX-11. (Hey look, I got it back to vintage systems!) Microsoft is not the first operating system vendor to issue patches and patches to patches and.... I'm not sure why it seems more "egregious" with one vendor than another - except that there is a tendency to bash "corporations", despite the fact that the majority of corporations are small, privately held companies. Once more. No one is (I hope) claiming that there is a perfect OS without problems. However, Microsoft seems to have just about any problem any other OS had, and then invented a few new problems never seen before. And many of those are not something for CERT, or even crashes. Just things that don't work as it should. The concept of doing a reinstall of the OS every six to twelve months to get the system back into shape is not something any other company that I know of have as a concept. Neither the reboot every week. The latter is becoming less of a problem though, as software updates nowadays usually require you to reboot the system anyway, so you never run systems long enough to get into the problems Windows seem to get once it has been running for a month or so. > Opinion: I thought Microsoft operating systems were getting better and better, until Vista. I hope they'll get it right with Windows 7 and get back on an upward trend. However, I will say that it wasn't just Vista, but also the poor quality of PC hardware (three motherboards in one year?) that drove me to Macs. I really like my PowerBook G4, not only for its convenience and reliability but also because it's dead sexy. I recently replaced my desktop (supporting four monitors) with two Dual G4s (each running two monitors and sharing the keyboard/mouse through Synergy). Function wins. I agree. But the fact that seem to be getting better and better should really be a warning bell, and not a proof of quality. If they could be improving quality so much that it seems appearant for anyone using the system, and to do that time and again, says that quality must have started on a really low level. And do you really think that by doing a few iterations, quality suddenly then is top notch? And what happened with Vista? > Disclosure: I worked for Microsoft for a dozen years. (I don't anymore.) When I worked at Microsoft, I did not like Vista and persisted in running XP on my company-issued laptop. In fact, for a while before I left I ran Ubuntu at home, until I grew weary of replacing not-inexpensive PC components and fighting compatibility issues (in a commoditized marketplace!). Now, since I don't work there anymore, no one bothers me about my PowerBook - since I've "taken off the collar", people have stopped expecting me to be an apologist - or seeing me as some kind of heretic. It's just a computer. Ok. I'll make a disclosure as well. I hate Linux. I think it's a total disaster. It's a bunch of clowns who hardly knows how to write an OS sitting around hacking along as much as they can, and learning along the way. Is that something I'd like to depend upon? No! But I'd still pick Linux before windows if I have to. But not being happy about it. > These days, I've been spending a lot of my time on VMS on a VAX-11/780-5, using CMUIP as the networking layer. THAT will give you a sense of perspective. Hey, backups are done - I need to go finish reassembling this TU56 for a PDP-8/e.... -- Ian And I spend time working on RSX, and even getting paid for it. And I'm having a blast. Even though I know of a bunch of problems, bugs, and security issues with the system. It is by no means bug free, but at least most things work pretty much the way they are meant to, and the systems have been chugging away for over 20 years without any major issues. Security problems - yes. Performance problems - no. I guess that from a CERT point of view, RSX would loose to Windows. But I know of a few steel mills and paper mills that wouldn't be impressed with Windows. Rebooting once a year is not an option. Especially not if a few tons of hot steel is being processed right at that moment. There. I'll stop my Windows bashing now, and pray that I'll be able to keep working without having to deal with that OS. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sat May 23 21:41:07 2009 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 21:41:07 -0500 Subject: Anyone heard of a North Plug or IBM wire relays ... Re: Jonesplugs, or similar sorts of plugs References: <462053.13883.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A16F3C5.53BAA472@cs.ubc.ca> <4A1723A0.9060400@nktelco.net> <4A185A57.2010605@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <002d01c9dc19$177a6480$6400a8c0@acerd3c08b49af> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles H Dickman" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 3:19 PM Subject: Re: Anyone heard of a North Plug or IBM wire relays ... Re: Jonesplugs, or similar sorts of plugs > William Donzelli wrote: >> Yes, pictures please. >> >> -- >> Will >> > http://www.chdickman.com/IBM/490-0056/ > > My recollection was a little fuzzy on some details. The wiring is made up > of wires with crimp terminal plugs on the ends and each relay socket > terminal has two receptacles for the wires. The relay moving contacts are > actuated in a group by a plastic piece connected to the armature. The each > moving contact consists of two fine (#30) gold wires. The narrow relays > have 4 Form-C contact, the intermediates 6 and the wide ones 12. > > The plug and terminal strip are not part of the base socket frame, but > were likely made by us and then added to the frame. > > The date code on the chassis says 1976, so this is probably the last one > built and then cannibalized for relays to send to customers. > > After looking at it, I wish that it still had the full compliment of > relays. It might be interesting to make something out of it. > > -chuck > Hi Chuck, >From your img_4676.jpg I would say those are exactly what I was trying to describe, including the crimp terminal plugs. And yes, they did come in different widths depending on how many poles were required at that point in the logic. My experience with them was in the early 60's and most of the ones I encountered were silver rather than gold though. You should be able to easily slide the wires out for inspection and just as easily slide them back into place. With the silver ones we sometimes slid all the contact wires out just enough to clear the contact posts and them ran a little flat burnishing tool between all the posts to "clean" them. Some thought this was counter-productive, and I can't really recall ever fixing a problem that way. Unless a short occurs somewhere and actually destroys the wires and/or contacts due to too much current, they seemed very reliable. There was also a variant with two coils. When the main coil pulled the relay in the armature became mechanically latched in that position. Then some time later the smaller coil could be activated momentarily to unlatch and allow the contacts to return to the normally closed position. Nice if you needed it activated for long periods and didn't want to have to keep current flowing through the main coil. Greener as well, before we even knew what green was. :) Later, Charlie Carothers -- My email address is csquared3 at tx dot rr dot com From bpettitx at comcast.net Sat May 23 23:49:28 2009 From: bpettitx at comcast.net (Billy Pettit) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 21:49:28 -0700 Subject: Washing machine drives Message-ID: <41A808202E824CA8B2A8E60EF9C41833@RosemarysPC> You wrote: CDC installations were not power sequenced? Or just Teks? All CDC drives were power sequenced. The DC would come up first but the AC for the spindle motors was sequenced via a special cable and later inside the logic cable and finally via the controller. But educating many of the field and installation folks was difficult. It took time to sequence up properly and there is always someone who wants to do it faster. By the way, Jay still hasn't approved my new ISP so I'm still not on the list. Billy From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun May 24 04:48:35 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 10:48:35 +0100 Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: <4A18B338.1080304@sbcglobal.net> References: <858585.54349.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A18B338.1080304@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <4A1917F3.1050209@dunnington.plus.com> On 24/05/2009 03:38, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > Mr Ian Primus wrote: >>> [ Video connector with pins like this >>> : >>> o o o o >>> o o o o > Those are the EIAJ E8MCM connectors widely used on older video > equipment and monitors. Thank you! That's the name I've been trying to remember! > I'm sure you can find them here: www.markertek.com -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From lists at databasics.us Sun May 24 07:19:15 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 02:19:15 -1000 Subject: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing In-Reply-To: <4A1872C4.1050206@softjar.se> References: <4A1872C4.1050206@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4A193B43.30502@databasics.us> Johnny Billquist wrote: The concept of doing a reinstall of the OS every six to twelve months to get the system back into shape is not something any other company that I know of have as a concept. Neither the reboot every week. Reboot every week? How do you get Windows that stable? In my experience, there is a failure mode in which the time required to do essentially ANYTHING will take a sudden leap. At that point, I have learned to save any data in open files IMMEDIATELY, and close the files. Patience is vital in this. I then close every open window, and shut the machine down or restart it. The "big slow" will sometimes clear on its own, but in maybe 10% of the cases, it ends with a system hang. "Big slows" are possible after less than 24 hours of serious use, and likely after about two days. I don't call this stable. I recommend that my clients shut down their (workstation) machines each night. That keeps the problem at bay. I imagine this problem is a memory or stack leak. What irks me is that Microsoft has been collecting billions of dollars from computer users for decades, with many millions of users of the software, and THIS is the best they can do? I mean, seriously. I went from having to boot my home system every day to ward of the uglies to simply ignoring it, and letting it run for months at a time, running Linux. I futz around with my hardware often enough that I've never encountered a single problem I could identify as having been caused by Linux. Considering the money they have gotten from us, we deserve better products from Microsoft. Windows should be, far and away, the very BEST operating system ever conceived. That clearly has not happened. Cripes, a bunch of unorganized hackers put together a much more stable system. IBM, involved in O/S writing for only a short time produced OS/2, which was far superior to Windows of the time -- in everything but marketing. Historically, compare it with dBase.... The product started, I believe, as the Condor database. It was terrible. Whatever background things went on with it becoming dBase, I'm not sure, but when the product started selling well (mostly through lack of non-risible competition) the money from the increased sales was put, in large measure, into fixing bugs, and making it more usable. The popularity of the product increased its reliability, and hence, its market appeal. Product sales and product quality both spiraled upwards. It was wonderful to behold. So, why is the same not happening with Windows? Windows XP was released in, I believe, 2000, and the next version, Vista, wasn't released for SEVEN YEARS. That is geologic ages in computer software years. And, after seven years, Vista is the result? There are MANY more computers now than in the early 1980s, and Microsoft has a MUCH bigger percentage of the market than Ashton-Tate ever dreamed of. By all rights, Windows Vista should be software that approaches the borders of divinity. Instead, each new release of Windows is like a beta test. And, even if you give Microsoft a bye with Vista, after seven years and many millions of users, Windows XP should be utterly rock-stable. HAH! Heck, with the exception of MS/PC-DOS 5.0, I don't know of a single version X.0 Microsoft product that could be described as anything other than broken. I can accept this in a little company struggling to survive -- but of all the billions received for XP.... How much went into development of Vista? Either they short-changed us by devoting too few resources to the project, or they are one of the least competent software development teams in history. Is this "bashing" Microsoft? Personally, I see it as reporting. Warren From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun May 24 07:50:57 2009 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 08:50:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anyone heard of a North Plug or IBM wire relays ... Re: Jonesplugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: <002d01c9dc19$177a6480$6400a8c0@acerd3c08b49af> References: <462053.13883.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A16F3C5.53BAA472@cs.ubc.ca> <4A1723A0.9060400@nktelco.net> <4A185A57.2010605@nktelco.net> <002d01c9dc19$177a6480$6400a8c0@acerd3c08b49af> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 May 2009, CSquared wrote: >> From your img_4676.jpg I would say those are exactly what I was trying to > describe, including the crimp terminal plugs. And yes, they did come in > different widths depending on how many poles were required at that point in > the logic. If you haven't already found it, this IBM CE Reference Manual for relays has lots of detail on their various relay types, including pictures and maintenance procedures: http://ed-thelen.org/1401Project/IBM-003-22-5857-1-Relays.pdf Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Sun May 24 11:22:15 2009 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 09:22:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing Message-ID: <222492.8669.qm@web112205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Personally, I see this as having nothing to do with vintage computing. So why is is here? Dont like the OS, dont use it. Keep your rants off here. > Is this "bashing" Microsoft?? Personally, I see it as > reporting. > > > Warren > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 24 11:14:55 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 17:14:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: <20090523162946.K82083@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 23, 9 04:32:48 pm Message-ID: > The little Sony monitor/TV from that reeel to reel setup also had a full > size "UHF coax" connector. I used that for the video for my first TRS80. Yes, that conenctor (We generally call them PL259s and SO239s (plug and socket respectively) over here) was quite common on video equipment at one time. I have no idea why, it's not even close to constant impedance, and it's very easy to make a right mess of soldering the plug to the cable. The BNC connecotr is a lot nicer. There was a popular monochrome monitor over here in the late 1970s/early 1980s. I think it was a Nitachi, the case was grey-painted metal with a black plastic front panel, it was almost cubical in shape, and came in 9" and 12" versions. I came across them used with Apple ][s, RML380Zs, etc. Anyway, that used SO239s as the input connectors. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 24 11:34:19 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 12:34:19 -0400 Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4144675B-42A6-4A7B-814D-D023B3F49426@neurotica.com> On May 24, 2009, at 12:14 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> The little Sony monitor/TV from that reeel to reel setup also had >> a full >> size "UHF coax" connector. I used that for the video for my first >> TRS80. > > Yes, that conenctor (We generally call them PL259s and SO239s (plug > and > socket respectively) over here) was quite common on video equipment at > one time. I have no idea why, it's not even close to constant > impedance, > and it's very easy to make a right mess of soldering the plug to the > cable. They go by the same designation over here. They're one of the worst connector designs I've ever seen. Not even suitable for VHF use, why on earth someone named them "UHF" is quite beyond me. Have you ever put one on a network analyzer? Bumps and reflections all over the place. > The BNC connecotr is a lot nicer. Twisting two pieces of wire together is a lot nicer than a PL259/ SO239! -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 24 11:49:50 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 09:49:50 -0700 Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: <4144675B-42A6-4A7B-814D-D023B3F49426@neurotica.com> References: , <4144675B-42A6-4A7B-814D-D023B3F49426@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A19183E.3712.1F1D43D9@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 May 2009 at 12:34, Dave McGuire wrote: > They go by the same designation over here. They're one of the > worst connector designs I've ever seen. Not even suitable for VHF > use, why on earth someone named them "UHF" is quite beyond me. Have > you ever put one on a network analyzer? Bumps and reflections all > over the place. They're ancient (1930s) and go back to a time when "UHF" was 30 MHz. and up. "Microwave" was anything shorter than 1 meter. Given the materials and technology of the time, their survival has been nothing short of remarkable. Cheers, Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun May 24 11:53:11 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 12:53:11 -0400 Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: <4144675B-42A6-4A7B-814D-D023B3F49426@neurotica.com> References: <4144675B-42A6-4A7B-814D-D023B3F49426@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > ?They go by the same designation over here. ?They're one of the worst > connector designs I've ever seen. ?Not even suitable for VHF use, why on > earth someone named them "UHF" is quite beyond me. ?Have you ever put one on > a network analyzer? ?Bumps and reflections all over the place. The official designation is PL-259 and SO-239 - and these designations refer only to the straight plug and standard chassis mount versions. These are old US Army Signal Corps designations, and date to roughly 1941. Yes, they are not very good (electrically) radio connectors, but they were developed during a time when coax was very much in its infancy, and UHF meant something different than it does today. I can think of very few coax connectors that came before ("WE" connectors, GenRad 874), and they were generally not very good either. For an early try, they are not bad at all, and in many cases work fine. They are easy to use, can deal with a good deal of power, and are very rugged. -- Will From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun May 24 11:58:20 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 10:58:20 -0600 Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: <4144675B-42A6-4A7B-814D-D023B3F49426@neurotica.com> References: <4144675B-42A6-4A7B-814D-D023B3F49426@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A197CAC.5070609@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > They go by the same designation over here. They're one of the worst > connector designs I've ever seen. Not even suitable for VHF use, why on > earth someone named them "UHF" is quite beyond me. Have you ever put > one on a network analyzer? Bumps and reflections all over the place. If that is the connector I am thinking of ... UHF was 10MHZ+ ... it is that old. >> The BNC connecotr is a lot nicer. > > Twisting two pieces of wire together is a lot nicer than a PL259/SO239! > > -Dave No comment about RCA jacks .... From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sun May 24 12:15:24 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 13:15:24 -0400 Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: <4144675B-42A6-4A7B-814D-D023B3F49426@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200905241715.n4OHFYTV078705@keith.ezwind.net> On Sun, 24 May 2009 12:34:19 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > They're one of the worst connector designs I've ever seen. Show me a connetor design from the 30s that will take RG8 low loss coax and handle several KWs of RF power without arcing and sparking. You will not do it with a BNC. PL259s are easy to terminate with a little practice and a good soldering gun! >Twisting two pieces of wire together is a lot nicer than a PL259 To get closer to being on topic, try soldering 3 or 4 pieces of coax to a DB9 connector to use as a RGB video feed and look at it on an analyzer, it makes a PL259 look like a real clean option. I agree the PL259 is overkill for 1v composit video, but they do have their uses. The other Bob From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun May 24 12:18:52 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 13:18:52 -0400 Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: <4A19183E.3712.1F1D43D9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4144675B-42A6-4A7B-814D-D023B3F49426@neurotica.com> <4A19183E.3712.1F1D43D9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > They're ancient (1930s) Not quite that old, but close. When I get home I might look up when they were type approved by US Navy. > Given the > materials and technology of the time, their survival has been nothing > short of remarkable. For fairly high power applications, they are an inexpensive option, compared to the better connectors. They can take an amazing amount of physical and electrical abuse. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 24 12:42:47 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 10:42:47 -0700 Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: References: , <4A19183E.3712.1F1D43D9@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4A1924A7.2450.1F4DAC9C@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 May 2009 at 13:18, William Donzelli wrote: > > They're ancient (1930s) > > Not quite that old, but close. When I get home I might look up when > they were type approved by US Navy. I'm not certain, but I think the Navy designation came about after they'd been introduced into the commercial market. I'll have to go look at a 1939 radio handbook to see if I see them mentioned anywhere. Nevermind, I found a mention on ERT: "The UHF connector, also sometimes known as the Amphenol coaxial connector was designed in the 1930s by a designer in the Amphenol company for use as an RF connector in the radio industry. The UHF connector was initially intended for use as a video connector for radar equipment, but it later became used in a variety of RF applications." Regardless, consider that they are almost as old as (modern) coaxial cable (1929, US Patent 1835031). --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 24 13:26:54 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 14:26:54 -0400 Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: References: <4144675B-42A6-4A7B-814D-D023B3F49426@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <121EC540-7056-433A-B02A-69A930725DD4@neurotica.com> On May 24, 2009, at 12:53 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> They go by the same designation over here. They're one of the worst >> connector designs I've ever seen. Not even suitable for VHF use, >> why on >> earth someone named them "UHF" is quite beyond me. Have you ever >> put one on >> a network analyzer? Bumps and reflections all over the place. > > The official designation is PL-259 and SO-239 - and these designations > refer only to the straight plug and standard chassis mount versions. > These are old US Army Signal Corps designations, and date to roughly > 1941. Yes, they are not very good (electrically) radio connectors, but > they were developed during a time when coax was very much in its > infancy, and UHF meant something different than it does today. I can > think of very few coax connectors that came before ("WE" connectors, > GenRad 874), and they were generally not very good either. For an > early try, they are not bad at all, and in many cases work fine. They > are easy to use, can deal with a good deal of power, and are very > rugged. You mentioned GR-874s...I've never put one on a network analyzer, but I use them all the time in DC metrology applications. They're wonderful in that world. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 24 13:27:24 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 14:27:24 -0400 Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: <4A197CAC.5070609@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4144675B-42A6-4A7B-814D-D023B3F49426@neurotica.com> <4A197CAC.5070609@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <611AFE14-0A8B-4E9E-8354-954CE7566361@neurotica.com> On May 24, 2009, at 12:58 PM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> They go by the same designation over here. They're one of the >> worst connector designs I've ever seen. Not even suitable for VHF >> use, why on earth someone named them "UHF" is quite beyond me. >> Have you ever put one on a network analyzer? Bumps and >> reflections all over the place. > > If that is the connector I am thinking of ... UHF was 10MHZ+ ... it > is that old. > >>> The BNC connecotr is a lot nicer. >> Twisting two pieces of wire together is a lot nicer than a PL259/ >> SO239! >> -Dave > > No comment about RCA jacks .... I think "F" connectors are truly the worst. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 24 13:29:57 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 14:29:57 -0400 Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: <200905241715.n4OHFYTV078705@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200905241715.n4OHFYTV078705@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <425E99F1-BBCC-4B6D-9913-207108405941@neurotica.com> On May 24, 2009, at 1:15 PM, Bob Bradlee wrote: >> They're one of the worst connector designs I've ever seen. > > Show me a connetor design from the 30s that will take RG8 low loss > coax > and handle several KWs of RF power without arcing and sparking. > You will not do it with a BNC. Nope. But that doesn't change my opinion that the PL259/SO239 should have been *left* in the 30s. > PL259s are easy to terminate with a little practice and a good > soldering gun! ...and then you have coax terminated with a crappy connector that's not waterproof, lossy, easily contaminated, and has a huge impedance bump. >> Twisting two pieces of wire together is a lot nicer than a PL259 > > To get closer to being on topic, try soldering 3 or 4 pieces of > coax to a DB9 connector to use as a RGB > video feed and look at it on an analyzer, it makes a PL259 look > like a real clean option. I have to agree there. :) > I agree the PL259 is overkill for 1v composit video, but they do > have their uses. Eh. There are SO many better connectors. BNC, TNC, N (my personal favorite), APC-7... -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jfoust at threedee.com Sun May 24 13:37:37 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 13:37:37 -0500 Subject: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing In-Reply-To: <228533.42006.qm@web112207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <228533.42006.qm@web112207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090524133710.03dedc00@mail.threedee.com> At 12:14 PM 5/22/2009, Christian Liendo wrote: >yea.. I'm sick of the this too.. >You like your computer like a religion, fine.. Let other people have their religions too. OK, little-endian v. big-endian. - John From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun May 24 15:04:47 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 22:04:47 +0200 Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: <200905241715.n4OHFYTV078705@keith.ezwind.net> References: <4144675B-42A6-4A7B-814D-D023B3F49426@neurotica.com> <200905241715.n4OHFYTV078705@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20090524220447.3bc00841.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 24 May 2009 13:15:24 -0400 "Bob Bradlee" wrote: > Show me a connetor design from the 30s that will take RG8 low loss > coax and handle several KWs of RF power without arcing and sparking. Not 30'is but early 40'is: N. PL- and Belling-Lee connectors should have died that moment when N and BNC where born. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 24 15:49:09 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 21:49:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at May 24, 9 12:53:11 pm Message-ID: [PL259, etc] > early try, they are not bad at all, and in many cases work fine. They > are easy to use, can deal with a good deal of power, and are very Depends on what you mean by 'easy to use'. I think they're harder to fit _properly_ to the cable than, say, a BNC plug. Sure they're easy to plug together, but that applies to most decent connectors too. > rugged. No, I disagree. The 'mating parts' may be rugged, bu the cable clamping arrangements, certainly on any PL-259 I've used, are not. They seem to work by cutting a thread into the outer jacket of the cable. If you use thinner cables and the 'reducers', it's even worse. There's no locking of the reducer, if it works loose all the strain is taken by the soldered joints. I've had _many_ bad connections at PL-259s Yes, there are better ones with cable clamping arangements like a BNC plug, but they are not at all common. And if you're goign to use those, you might as well fit a BNC connector or similar. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 24 15:52:40 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 21:52:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: <4A197CAC.5070609@jetnet.ab.ca> from "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" at May 24, 9 10:58:20 am Message-ID: > No comment about RCA jacks .... They might be OK for audio, but I don't like them for video... It always amazes me how many otherwise respectable companies (like HP) used them. I have an HP monitor which had a very poor quality RCA phono socket for the video inpout. I ended up ripping it off the bracket and replacing it with a good [1] gold-plated one. No better RF performance, but at least a better DC connection/ [1] Not all so-called 'quality' RCA sockets are!. The first ones I tried wer vere weak metal under the gold plating. So weak that light hand pressure on the nutdriver on the mounting nut would break the body. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 24 15:57:03 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 21:57:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: <200905241715.n4OHFYTV078705@keith.ezwind.net> from "Bob Bradlee" at May 24, 9 01:15:24 pm Message-ID: > > On Sun, 24 May 2009 12:34:19 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > They're one of the worst connector designs I've ever seen. > > Show me a connetor design from the 30s that will take RG8 low loss coax > and handle several KWs of RF power without arcing and sparking. > You will not do it with a BNC. I don;'t know the dates, but the 'C' and 'N' connectors spring to mind. Probably a bit later, though. IIRC the stnadard N connector socket has the same panel cutout as the SO-239. Which makes it a useful upgrade for stuff fitted with the latter connecotor > > PL259s are easy to terminate with a little practice and a good soldering gun! Unless you hae a crappy one where the insulator melts before you've got the braid properly soldered.... > > >Twisting two pieces of wire together is a lot nicer than a PL259 > > To get closer to being on topic, try soldering 3 or 4 pieces of coax > to a DB9 connector to use as a RGB ^^^ DE9, surely :-) > video feed and look at it on an analyzer, it makes a PL259 look like a > real clean option. Don;t get me started on the 'SCART' connnector used over here. This is a 21 pin socket that takes a 20 pin plug (no, I am not joking, the 21st socket contact connects to the overall screen of the plug), it's commonly fitted on domestic TVs, VCRs, DVD playes, etc. The signals are stereo audio I/O, comoposite video I/O, RGB video (unidirecional, using the composite video pin for sync, and so on). A worst RF connector is hard to imagine! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 24 16:05:09 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 22:05:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: <611AFE14-0A8B-4E9E-8354-954CE7566361@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at May 24, 9 02:27:24 pm Message-ID: > > No comment about RCA jacks .... Which reminds me, I've seen RCA phono sockets and even 3.5mm jack plugs (which you vcall 'mini phone plugs IIRC) used for _UHF_ TV signals. The former were commonly used on the output of UHF modulator cans that appeared in almost all the old home computers over here (the cable with an RCA phono plug on one end and a Belling-Lee coax plug on the other to fit UK TV aerial sockets is still a commonly available one). And I have a portable TV that uses the latter as the aerial socket! > > > I think "F" connectors are truly the worst. Horrible mechaniclaly, but I am told the RF performance is not that bad. I've not tested it, though. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 24 16:35:56 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 14:35:56 -0700 Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: References: <200905241715.n4OHFYTV078705@keith.ezwind.net> from "Bob Bradlee" at May 24, 9 01:15:24 pm, Message-ID: <4A195B4C.13946.20232AB9@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 May 2009 at 21:57, Tony Duell wrote: > I don;'t know the dates, but the 'C' and 'N' connectors spring to > mind. Probably a bit later, though. N connector is 1940s vintage. I think the difference boils down to materials. Nylon was first produced in 1935 and first found commercial application in 1939, after the UHF connector had been deployed. (The UHF connector uses a rigid phenolic insulator, which was a mature technology, dating from about 1908). I suspect that coax of the 1930s was rubber insulated covered with cotton or silk-- hardly a low-loss medium. Materials make a big difference. How many young engineers even know what "DCC" (as in "#18 AWG DCC) stands for? But then, why should they need to? :) --Chuck > > IIRC the stnadard N connector socket has the same panel cutout as the > SO-239. Which makes it a useful upgrade for stuff fitted with the > latter connecotor > > > > > PL259_s are easy to terminate with a little practice and a good > > soldering gun! > > Unless you hae a crappy one where the insulator melts before you've > got the braid properly soldered.... > > > > > >Twisting two pieces of wire together is a lot nicer than a PL259 > > > > To get closer to being on topic, try soldering 3 or 4 pieces of coax > > to a DB9 connector to use as a RGB > ^^^ > DE9, surely :-) > > > video feed and look at it on an analyzer, it makes a PL259 look like > > a real clean option. > > Don;t get me started on the 'SCART' connnector used over here. This is > a 21 pin socket that takes a 20 pin plug (no, I am not joking, the > 21st socket contact connects to the overall screen of the plug), it's > commonly fitted on domestic TVs, VCRs, DVD playes, etc. The signals > are stereo audio I/O, comoposite video I/O, RGB video (unidirecional, > using the composite video pin for sync, and so on). A worst RF > connector is hard to imagine! > > -tony > > From doug at stillhq.com Sun May 24 17:25:12 2009 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 08:25:12 +1000 Subject: SC/MP docs In-Reply-To: <4A182248.9010706@sdu.se> References: <4A182248.9010706@sdu.se> Message-ID: <4A19C948.1060506@stillhq.com> Lars Hamren wrote: > I have, in paper form, a > > 420305239-001A, SC/MP Microprocessor Application Handbook, Feb 77 > > You can have it for free, on the sole condition that you scan it > and put it online. I'll even cover the cost of shipping from Sweden > to Germany. > > /Lars I would *love* to see that when it is available :-) (Much grinning!) Doug From lists at databasics.us Sun May 24 17:39:36 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 12:39:36 -1000 Subject: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing In-Reply-To: <222492.8669.qm@web112205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <222492.8669.qm@web112205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A19CCA8.4000706@databasics.us> Christian Liendo wrote: Personally, I see this as having nothing to do with vintage computing. So why is is here? I have a couple of 20 year old computers that use Windows were purchased new with Windows for Workgroups. Dunno, but 20 year old computers seem to be "classic" computers to me... Is there an "official" definition for "classic computer" for this list? I would also note that the interface and interconnection of older computers and newer ones is, or at least SHOULD be part of the process. Emulators (thanks, guys!) for various old computers which run on modern PCs are (IMHO) an utterly appropriate topic, but consist of modern software running on modern hardware. They only ACT like old computers together. Ouch. This "topic NAZI" business gets complicated quickly, doesn't it? I would also note that my message only appeared on the "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" lists. However one judges it, it should qualify under at least ONE of those categories... no? Dont like the OS, dont use it. Keep your rants off here. You like telling others what to do, don't you? Sorry. I can tell I'm going to be a frustration to you. I have been in a situation for about a year and a half in which I have almost no choice but to use Windows XP very nearly exclusively. I'm not upset by this. I shut my machine down about twice a day, and then have relatively few O/S related issues in my life. I find that acceptable. The fact that Windows doesn't have "commands," but "suggestions," meaning that the O/S is apparently designed with the ability to choose to comply or not, I find somewhat confusing. I also find the lack of stability disturbing when compared with other O/S software, especially given the truly obscene amount of money Microsoft has earned. Seriously, give almost anyone here double-digit billions of dollars and twenty years, and I think ANY software product could be made incredibly stable -- I KNOW I could have done a better job that Microsoft has done, and I find that somewhat confusing. But these are fairly objective observations, no? They were, I would add, put in terms of comparison with OTHER ancient software manufacturers, who DID take faulty products, and made them much better once they got some decent sales money. Would you accuse me of "ranting" if I made similar observations comparing, say, the various Macintosh operating systems, or Linux distros, or HP's MPE versus Unix versions? Each platform has plusses and minuses. Does criticizing Windows violate tenets of YOUR religion? Otherwise, why the post? I hardly think you would be claiming that Windows (pick your favorite version) is perfect... or are you claiming that? I've been involved in electronic communications for a long time. A friend of mine and myself wrote an e-mail program for HP2000B Timeshare BASIC (Hey, it was all we had) back in 1971/1972. That's 27 years of e-chatting of various kinds. (Now I REALLY feel old.) I've SEEN rants -- many rants. I would certainly not call what I was doing "ranting" even if I was in a very hyperbolic mood. What about my post seems to be a "rant" to you? I would say that your post, while distressingly short, and devoid of any clever insults, is actually more of a rant than mine. I was not telling anyone else what to do, I was expressing opinions of my own. I often get paid very good money for my opinions, even without backing them up with logic and examples. I mean, people here are talking about UHF connectors, the PL259s and SO239s, in a rather negative way. Are they creating hardware rants? I think not; what's YOUR opinion on that? Warren From lists at databasics.us Sun May 24 17:49:52 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 12:49:52 -1000 Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A19CF10.9070604@databasics.us> Tony Duell wrote: >> I think "F" connectors are truly the worst. >> > > Horrible mechaniclaly, but I am told the RF performance is not that bad. > I've not tested it, though. Many years ago, I worked in a calibration lab, and after (actually) ranting about how crappy a connector an "F" type was, I tested one to make a point.... and the damned thing was very clean. Weird. And, they're very easy to put together, relative to BNCs, for example. That the electrical characteristics are almost identical to BNC connectors is something I still don't quite understand, although I believe the instruments... (all HP equip. ) Warren From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun May 24 17:54:50 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 23:54:50 +0100 Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: <4A19CF10.9070604@databasics.us> References: <4A19CF10.9070604@databasics.us> Message-ID: <1243205690.1088.10.camel@elric> On Sun, 2009-05-24 at 12:49 -1000, Warren Wolfe wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > >> I think "F" connectors are truly the worst. > >> > > > > Horrible mechaniclaly, but I am told the RF performance is not that bad. > > I've not tested it, though. > > Many years ago, I worked in a calibration lab, and after (actually) > ranting about how crappy a connector an "F" type was, I tested one to > make a point.... and the damned thing was very clean. Weird. And, > they're very easy to put together, relative to BNCs, for example. That > the electrical characteristics are almost identical to BNC connectors is > something I still don't quite understand, although I believe the > instruments... (all HP equip. ) Well, the inner diameter of the braid and the outer diameter of the centre conductor stays *almost* the same right through the connector. Mechanically it's as close as possible to a straight bit of wire. Gordon From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Sun May 24 17:59:40 2009 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 15:59:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing Message-ID: <464920.97339.qm@web112212.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> > > I mean, people here are talking about UHF connectors, the > PL259s and SO239s, in a rather negative way.? Are they > creating hardware rants?? I think not; what's YOUR > opinion on that? > http://www.classiccmp.org/oldfaq.txt 2.8 Can I type obscenities about Microsoft in ALL CAPS!?! (Or, in general, be unreasonable with reagard to advocacy posts?) Check your anti-MS baggage at the door, please. For that matter, drop any posts that serve only to perpetuate the holy wars. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ My opinion is that this is the etiquette that we agreed upon when we came here. I report, let everyone decide. Nuff Said. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun May 24 17:51:54 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 19:51:54 -0300 Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs References: <4144675B-42A6-4A7B-814D-D023B3F49426@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <063a01c9dcc4$f5ad0ef0$7d1a19bb@desktaba> >GenRad 874), and they were generally not very good either. For an >early try, they are not bad at all, and in many cases work fine. They >are easy to use, can deal with a good deal of power, and are very >rugged. Interesting that most amateur radio equipment still uses them as standard. I have an IC-706MKIIG (two antenna connections: one for HF + 50MHz, another for 144 and 440MHz) with a pair of SO-239. I don't remember any rig with N connectors on the back, although I'm pretty sure I've seen it. In other side, it is not hard to find antennas with N-female connections, even because they are waterproof (!). My GP-98 has a N-female on its butt. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun May 24 17:53:24 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 19:53:24 -0300 Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs References: Message-ID: <063b01c9dcc4$f6aea070$7d1a19bb@desktaba> > fit UK TV aerial sockets is still a commonly available one). And I have a > portable TV that uses the latter as the aerial socket! It is very common on portable TVs and that small LCDs from Casio and RS. From ken at seefried.com Sun May 24 18:31:01 2009 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 19:31:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: vme532? Message-ID: <20090524233101.AB1AE3800072A@portal.seefried.com> Longshot, to be sure...does anyone have a spare Heurikon VME532 board? This is a VMEBus card with a National Semiconductor 32532, local cache and 4MB RAM. I'm slowly porting NetBSD to it, and I have the only one I've ever seen. I'd like to have a backup before I get too far down the road. KJ From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 24 19:05:19 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 00:05:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing Message-ID: <236288.48249.qm@web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Whilst I am not a fan of MS, or there products, I do believe you have missed atleast one version of windows - 2003. Was Windows XP really released in 2000? The reason I ask is that wasn't Windows 2000 released in 1999/2000 and then followed up very quickly with Windows ME (Millenium Edition)? The computers at work were recently (summer 2008) upgraded to Windows 2003. The policy at might place is to upgrade the computers every 2 to 3 years, and usually with an Windows OS that's 3-5 years old. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Sun, 24/5/09, Warren Wolfe wrote: From: Warren Wolfe Subject: Re: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Sunday, 24 May, 2009, 1:19 PM So, why is the same not happening with Windows?? Windows XP was released in, I believe, 2000, and the next version, Vista, wasn't released for SEVEN YEARS.? That is geologic ages in computer software years.? And, after seven years, Vista is the result?? There are MANY more computers now than in the early 1980s, and Microsoft has a MUCH bigger percentage of the market than Ashton-Tate ever dreamed of.? By all rights, Windows Vista should be software that approaches the borders of divinity.? Instead, each new release of Windows is like a beta test.? And, even if you give Microsoft a bye with Vista, after seven years and many millions of users, Windows XP should be utterly rock-stable.? HAH! Warren From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun May 24 19:31:32 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 17:31:32 -0700 Subject: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing In-Reply-To: <4A19CCA8.4000706@databasics.us> References: <222492.8669.qm@web112205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4A19CCA8.4000706@databasics.us> Message-ID: <5390CFE6-C98C-4B3E-B6C3-54E9E1FE7A9E@mail.msu.edu> On May 24, 2009, at 3:39 PM, Warren Wolfe wrote: > Christian Liendo wrote: > > Personally, I see this as having nothing to do with vintage > computing. So why is is here? > > I have a couple of 20 year old computers that use Windows were > purchased new with Windows for Workgroups. Dunno, but 20 year old > computers seem to be "classic" computers to me... Is there an > "official" definition for "classic computer" for this list? I would > also note that the interface and interconnection of older computers > and newer ones is, or at least SHOULD be part of the process. > Emulators (thanks, guys!) for various old computers which run on > modern PCs are (IMHO) an utterly appropriate topic, but consist of > modern software running on modern hardware. They only ACT like old > computers together. Ouch. This "topic NAZI" business gets > complicated quickly, doesn't it? > > I would also note that my message only appeared on the "On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts" lists. However one judges it, it should qualify > under at least ONE of those categories... no? > > > > Dont like the OS, dont use it. Keep your rants off here. > > You like telling others what to do, don't you? Sorry. I can tell > I'm going to be a frustration to you. > > I have been in a situation for about a year and a half in which I > have almost no choice but to use Windows XP very nearly > exclusively. I'm not upset by this. I shut my machine down about > twice a day, and then have relatively few O/S related issues in my > life. I find that acceptable. > > The fact that Windows doesn't have "commands," but "suggestions," > meaning that the O/S is apparently designed with the ability to > choose to comply or not, I find somewhat confusing. I also find the > lack of stability disturbing when compared with other O/S software, > especially given the truly obscene amount of money Microsoft has > earned. Seriously, give almost anyone here double-digit billions of > dollars and twenty years, and I think ANY software product could be > made incredibly stable -- I KNOW I could have done a better job that > Microsoft has done, and I find that somewhat confusing. But these > are fairly objective observations, no? They were, I would add, put > in terms of comparison with OTHER ancient software manufacturers, > who DID take faulty products, and made them much better once they > got some decent sales money. > > Would you accuse me of "ranting" if I made similar observations > comparing, say, the various Macintosh operating systems, or Linux > distros, or HP's MPE versus Unix versions? Each platform has > plusses and minuses. Does criticizing Windows violate tenets of > YOUR religion? Otherwise, why the post? I hardly think you would > be claiming that Windows (pick your favorite version) is perfect... > or are you claiming that? I've been involved in electronic > communications for a long time. A friend of mine and myself wrote > an e-mail program for HP2000B Timeshare BASIC (Hey, it was all we > had) back in 1971/1972. That's 27 years of e-chatting of various > kinds. (Now I REALLY feel old.) I've SEEN rants -- many rants. I > would certainly not call what I was doing "ranting" even if I was in > a very hyperbolic mood. What about my post seems to be a "rant" to > you? I would say that your post, while distressingly short, and > devoid of any clever insults, is actually more of a rant than mine. > I was not telling anyone else what to do, I was expressing opinions > of my own. I often get paid very good money for my opinions, even > without backing them up with logic and examples. > > I mean, people here are talking about UHF connectors, the PL259s and > SO239s, in a rather negative way. Are they creating hardware > rants? I think not; what's YOUR opinion on that? > > My opinion is that such topics like this are very uninteresting -- what are you trying to say with your anti-ms rant? Who are you trying to convert and what knowledge are you conveying? This is a troll, plain and simple, whether you think you are or not. Also, if you have to reboot your XP machine 2x a day then I'd suggest checking the hardware for faults. Josh > Warren > > > > From doug at stillhq.com Sun May 24 19:26:11 2009 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 10:26:11 +1000 Subject: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing In-Reply-To: <4A19CCA8.4000706@databasics.us> References: <222492.8669.qm@web112205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4A19CCA8.4000706@databasics.us> Message-ID: <4A19E5A3.6080401@stillhq.com> Re Microsoft and this list - Can it run on my Z80, or my PDP11/04 or my PDP11/34 or my 1802 or my C64, or my Atari, or my 65F11 or any of my other classic machines?? No? Thats my definition of Classic - I know that it difers from the lists - so I just happily hit the key marked The world got extremely boring when the beige boxes started taking over circt about 1982 - 83 - Thats when My collection stops. :-) Sorry - couldn't exist. Doug From lists at databasics.us Sun May 24 19:39:28 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 14:39:28 -1000 Subject: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing In-Reply-To: <236288.48249.qm@web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <236288.48249.qm@web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A19E8C0.3050303@databasics.us> Andrew Burton wrote: > Whilst I am not a fan of MS, or there products, I do believe you have missed atleast one version of windows - 2003. Was Windows XP really released in 2000? The reason I ask is that wasn't Windows 2000 released in 1999/2000 and then followed up very quickly with Windows ME (Millenium Edition)? > Yeah... Sorry about that. I just checked. XP release was October of 2001. Thanks. > The computers at work were recently (summer 2008) upgraded to Windows 2003. The policy at might place is to upgrade the computers every 2 to 3 years, and usually with an Windows OS that's 3-5 years old. > That's actually a pretty good policy. Being on the "bleeding edge" is painful, esp. with Microsoft. Warren From lists at databasics.us Sun May 24 19:59:56 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 14:59:56 -1000 Subject: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing In-Reply-To: <5390CFE6-C98C-4B3E-B6C3-54E9E1FE7A9E@mail.msu.edu> References: <222492.8669.qm@web112205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4A19CCA8.4000706@databasics.us> <5390CFE6-C98C-4B3E-B6C3-54E9E1FE7A9E@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4A19ED8C.2070001@databasics.us> Josh Dersch wrote: My opinion is that such topics like this are very uninteresting -- . . . You may well be right. what are you trying to say with your anti-ms rant? Again, the "r" word... What's about my post makes it a rant? I mean, this is as if I were to accuse others of being paid by Microsoft... apparently anti-anti-Microsoft rants ARE allowed. Right? Who are you trying to convert and what knowledge are you conveying? I'm trying to convert nobody... As if that would work if I WERE... And, I'm passing on some musings and personal experiences from more than 25 years of PC experience. This is a troll, plain and simple, whether you think you are or not. Um, are you calling my post, or me, a troll? I'm not fond of this kind of accusation. Accusations of hidden agendas might as well not be made. Isn't a troll a CONSCIOUS attempt to bait others into starting a flame war? If so, how could one NOT know one was trolling? Is YOUR STATEMENT a troll? Have I responded in a satisfactory fashion? Also, if you have to reboot your XP machine 2x a day then I'd suggest checking the hardware for faults. Oh, dear. First, thanks for your attempt to assist. Well, at the risk of compounding any potential trouble I might be in.... I DID test the hardware... By running ... shall we say .... "other software" for many months without problem. Also, I would point out that the same behavior has been observed on other machines. And, finally, let me point out that I have adopted a "twice a day" boot plan as prophylaxis for O/S problems, not because I am HAVING problems twice a day. Stepping gingerly, Warren From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun May 24 20:09:23 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 19:09:23 -0600 Subject: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing In-Reply-To: <4A19ED8C.2070001@databasics.us> References: <222492.8669.qm@web112205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4A19CCA8.4000706@databasics.us> <5390CFE6-C98C-4B3E-B6C3-54E9E1FE7A9E@mail.msu.edu> <4A19ED8C.2070001@databasics.us> Message-ID: <4A19EFC3.7060907@jetnet.ab.ca> Warren Wolfe wrote: > Oh, dear. First, thanks for your attempt to assist. Well, at the risk > of compounding any potential trouble I might be in.... I DID test the > hardware... By running ... shall we say .... "other software" for > many months without problem. Also, I would point out that the same > behavior has been observed on other machines. And, finally, let me > point out that I have adopted a "twice a day" boot plan as prophylaxis > for O/S problems, not because I am HAVING problems twice a day. > I just turn off the computer when I am done using it, a few times a day. > Stepping gingerly, > > Warren > PS: I know where the circuit breaker is ... When I say OFF ... I mean OFF! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun May 24 20:10:57 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 21:10:57 -0400 Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: <4A1924A7.2450.1F4DAC9C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4A19183E.3712.1F1D43D9@cclist.sydex.com> <4A1924A7.2450.1F4DAC9C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > I'm not certain, but I think the Navy designation came about after > they'd been introduced into the commercial market. ?I'll have to go > look at a 1939 radio handbook to see if I see them mentioned > anywhere. > > "The UHF connector, also sometimes known as the Amphenol coaxial > connector was designed in the 1930s by a designer in the Amphenol > company for use as an RF connector in the radio industry. The UHF > connector was initially intended for use as a video connector for > radar equipment, but it later became used in a variety of RF > applications." As you can see, the military are the ones that sponsored the design, as there was no civilian radar industry at the time. Now, I do not know who did the sponsorship, the Army or the Navy, but a quick look when I get home will confirm the dates (I have originals of NAVSHIPS 900119 and SIG-5 - the bibles for these sorts of things). Of course, by Tuesday, this thread will probably be dead. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun May 24 20:14:55 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 21:14:55 -0400 Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: <425E99F1-BBCC-4B6D-9913-207108405941@neurotica.com> References: <200905241715.n4OHFYTV078705@keith.ezwind.net> <425E99F1-BBCC-4B6D-9913-207108405941@neurotica.com> Message-ID: >> PL259 s are easy to terminate with a little practice and a good soldering >> gun! > > ?...and then you have coax terminated with a crappy connector that's not > waterproof, lossy, easily contaminated, and has a huge impedance bump. How much is the impedance mismatch, when the termination (or source) is immediately next to the connector? Not much, in the real world. Problems abound when using these anywhere in between. -- Will From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun May 24 20:20:59 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 18:20:59 -0700 Subject: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing In-Reply-To: <4A19ED8C.2070001@databasics.us> References: <222492.8669.qm@web112205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4A19CCA8.4000706@databasics.us> <5390CFE6-C98C-4B3E-B6C3-54E9E1FE7A9E@mail.msu.edu> <4A19ED8C.2070001@databasics.us> Message-ID: On May 24, 2009, at 5:59 PM, Warren Wolfe wrote: > Josh Dersch wrote: > > My opinion is that such topics like this are very uninteresting > -- . . . > > > You may well be right. > > > what are you trying to say with your anti-ms rant? > > Again, the "r" word... What's about my post makes it a rant? I > mean, this is as if I were to accuse others of being paid by > Microsoft... apparently anti-anti-Microsoft rants ARE allowed. > Right? You are allowed to say whatever you want, but on a list such as this it is very rarely productive. > > > > Who are you trying to convert and what knowledge are you conveying? > > I'm trying to convert nobody... As if that would work if I WERE... > And, I'm passing on some musings and personal experiences from more > than 25 years of PC experience. > No offense, but your musings seem to be more inflammatory than mere relations of experience -- stuff like "I could do a better job given the money". (paraphrasing since my phone won't do copy/paste) does not come without some emotional weight. > This is a troll, plain and simple, whether you think you are or not. > > > Um, are you calling my post, or me, a troll? I'm not fond of this > kind of accusation. Accusations of hidden agendas might as well not > be made. Isn't a troll a CONSCIOUS attempt to bait others into > starting a flame war? If so, how could one NOT know one was > trolling? Is YOUR STATEMENT a troll? Have I responded in a > satisfactory fashion? > I've no idea what your intent is, but as it is posts in this vein (see also emacs vs vi, apple vs anything...) mainly raise flames, they don't really promote useful discussion. > > Also, if you have to reboot your XP machine 2x a day then I'd > suggest checking the hardware for faults. > > > Oh, dear. First, thanks for your attempt to assist. Well, at the > risk of compounding any potential trouble I might be in.... I DID > test the hardware... By running ... shall we say .... "other > software" for many months without problem. Also, I would point out > that the same behavior has been observed on other machines. And, > finally, let me point out that I have adopted a "twice a day" boot > plan as prophylaxis for O/S problems, not because I am HAVING > problems twice a day. Well, in that case I'd suggest the cause could be terrible hardware drivers. They are the cause of the vast majority of instability problems. I'd also suggest memtest86 to ferret out memory issues. Windows XP generally very stable. I have machines at work whose uptimes have only been interrupted by power failures. If you get regular BSODs do a full dump and I can take a look to try and narrow down what's faulting. Josh > > > > Stepping gingerly, > > Warren > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun May 24 20:22:44 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 21:22:44 -0400 Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: <4A195B4C.13946.20232AB9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200905241715.n4OHFYTV078705@keith.ezwind.net> <4A195B4C.13946.20232AB9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > N connector is 1940s vintage. ?I think the difference boils down to > materials. ?Nylon was first produced in 1935 and first found > commercial application in 1939, after the UHF connector had been > deployed. N connectors suffer a fatal flaw - use the wrong plug in the wrong socket, and you are screwed. Mixing 50 and 75 Ohm Ns will either result in a crummy connection or a possibly ruined part. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun May 24 20:29:58 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 21:29:58 -0400 Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: <20090524220447.3bc00841.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4144675B-42A6-4A7B-814D-D023B3F49426@neurotica.com> <200905241715.n4OHFYTV078705@keith.ezwind.net> <20090524220447.3bc00841.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: > Not 30'is but early 40'is: N. PL- and Belling-Lee connectors should > have died that moment when N and BNC where born. PL-259oids are much cheaper to make than Ns. They also adapt easily to lots of types of coax, provided one uses the proper nut is used on the rear (which many people just leave off anyway). Ns have lots of picky little bits. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun May 24 20:50:21 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 21:50:21 -0400 Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: <4A1924A7.2450.1F4DAC9C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4A19183E.3712.1F1D43D9@cclist.sydex.com> <4A1924A7.2450.1F4DAC9C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > "The UHF connector, also sometimes known as the Amphenol coaxial > connector was designed in the 1930s by a designer in the Amphenol > company for use as an RF connector in the radio industry. The UHF > connector was initially intended for use as a video connector for > radar equipment, but it later became used in a variety of RF > applications." Hmmm...are yopu/they/we confusing this with the earlier UHF connector, the 93M? Those are indeed late 1930s. -- Will From fsmith at ladylinux.com Sun May 24 20:58:28 2009 From: fsmith at ladylinux.com (Fran C. Smith) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 21:58:28 -0400 Subject: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200905242158.28494.fsmith@ladylinux.com> On Sunday 24 May 2009 21:08:50 cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: NOOO Actually .. The real holy war is VI vs EMACS :-) > OK, little-endian v. big-endian. -- Kindest Regards, Fran Smith CEO "No Problems Only Solutions" L.B. Network Consultants LLC. Baltimore, Maryland From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 24 21:40:38 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 22:40:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs Message-ID: <60808.71.98.250.26.1243219238.squirrel@mail.neurotica.com> On Sun, May 24, 2009 6:49 pm, Warren Wolfe wrote: >>> I think "F" connectors are truly the worst. >> >> Horrible mechaniclaly, but I am told the RF performance is not that bad. >> I've not tested it, though. > > Many years ago, I worked in a calibration lab, and after (actually) > ranting about how crappy a connector an "F" type was, I tested one to > make a point.... and the damned thing was very clean. Weird. And, > they're very easy to put together, relative to BNCs, for example. That > the electrical characteristics are almost identical to BNC connectors is > something I still don't quite understand, although I believe the > instruments... (all HP equip. ) Wow, that's a big surprise. I do very little 75-ohm work, so I've never swept one on an analyzer. Visualizing the geometry of an F connector, it's hard to believe there aren't huge impedance problems everywhere. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From lists at databasics.us Sun May 24 21:45:12 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 16:45:12 -1000 Subject: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing In-Reply-To: <200905242158.28494.fsmith@ladylinux.com> References: <200905242158.28494.fsmith@ladylinux.com> Message-ID: <4A1A0638.6010707@databasics.us> Fran C. Smith wrote: > NOOO Actually .. > > The real holy war is > > VI vs EMACS :-) > Indeed. Can I hear an "AMEN?" Warren From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun May 24 21:51:21 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 20:51:21 -0600 Subject: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing In-Reply-To: <4A1A0638.6010707@databasics.us> References: <200905242158.28494.fsmith@ladylinux.com> <4A1A0638.6010707@databasics.us> Message-ID: <4A1A07A9.2010707@jetnet.ab.ca> Warren Wolfe wrote: > Fran C. Smith wrote: >> NOOO Actually .. >> The real holy war is >> >> VI vs EMACS :-) >> > Indeed. Can I hear an "AMEN?" > Umm I dislike them *BOTH* > Warren > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 24 22:18:37 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 20:18:37 -0700 Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: References: , <4A1924A7.2450.1F4DAC9C@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4A19AB9D.12976.215CC6A8@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 May 2009 at 21:50, William Donzelli wrote: > Hmmm...are yopu/they/we confusing this with the earlier UHF connector, > the 93M? > > Those are indeed late 1930s. Here's the ERT page: http://www.electronics-radio.com/articles/electronic_components/rf- connectors/uhf-connector-so239-pl259.php But I'll go digging in some of my old books and see if I can find references to the beast in 1939-1940. -Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 24 23:07:24 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 21:07:24 -0700 Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: References: , <4A1924A7.2450.1F4DAC9C@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4A19B70C.6067.218954AA@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 May 2009 at 21:50, William Donzelli wrote: > Hmmm...are yopu/they/we confusing this with the earlier UHF connector, > the 93M? > > Those are indeed late 1930s. A little browsing on the Amphenol web site turns up: http://www.amphenolrf.com/products/CatalogPages/unf_catalog.pdf "Invented in the 1930's by an Amphenol engineer, E. Clark Quackenbush for use in the radio industry..." I wonder about this, however. Quackenbush's name appears on US patent 2,422,982 (1947), but it deals with T- and L- UHF adapters. And his full name (on the patent) is "Edward Clarke Quackenbush"--not "Clark" as Amphenol would have it. However, the connector *was* pre-war. See patent 2,335,041, Bruno, 1942 "Right Angle Electric Connector". That is *definitely* a 239- type connector shown in the drawings, but no patent references are given. Does anyone have a very old SO/PL 239 with a patent number on it? As an aside, patent 477,951, Menger, 1892 shows what amounts ot a coaxial cable, but its purpose was for electrical distribution and no mention is made of RF applications (understandably). Frustrating--I know the patent for the thing has to be out there, but finding it isn't going to be easy. Maybe I should join the fray and offer my opinions of Microsoft products...it requires less thought and goes better with beer... --Chuck From dm561 at torfree.net Mon May 25 01:42:55 2009 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 02:42:55 -0400 Subject: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing Message-ID: <01C9DCE2.96C9D8A0@mse-d03> -----------------Original Message: Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 14:59:56 -1000 From: Warren Wolfe Subject: Re: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing Josh Dersch wrote: .... if you have to reboot your XP machine 2x a day then I'd suggest checking the hardware for faults. Oh, dear. First, thanks for your attempt to assist. Well, at the risk of compounding any potential trouble I might be in.... I DID test the hardware... By running ... shall we say .... "other software" for many months without problem. Also, I would point out that the same behavior has been observed on other machines. And, finally, let me point out that I have adopted a "twice a day" boot plan as prophylaxis for O/S problems, not because I am HAVING problems twice a day. Stepping gingerly, Warren ----------------------------Reply: Considering that many thousands if not millions of folks are happily using Windows and Microsoft apps 24/7 without any real problems, I think the fact that you and your clients are having such a different experience probably says more about you than Microsoft. Maybe you should try to find out what the problem actually is with your particular installations and fix it, instead of just complaining about Microsoft and rebooting twice a day; I don't think I or any of my clients would put up with that for very long. Writing an email program in BASIC 27 years ago hardly makes you an expert in properly configuring a system today, any more than my wiring IBM plugboards 45 years ago, and I don't think many folks here will be inpressed by your "25 years PC experience" either. BTW, if you've been around that long then you should know that dBase's history is not at all your "every version better than the previous one" example of what MS products should be; I'd say that dBase 4.0 was even worse than Vista, relatively speaking... You're "confused" because you KNOW that you could have done a better job than Microsoft? Heh, I'm just amused... that's where you *really* lose credibility... m From iamvirtual at gmail.com Sun May 24 23:39:31 2009 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 22:39:31 -0600 Subject: Wanted: LA30 Message-ID: <2645f9870905242139y2d1c892at6f23c5c62c47c0d1@mail.gmail.com> How rare are DEC LA30 terminals? I am looking to purchase an LA30 printer for my old PDPs. Let me know if you have one available. [Note: this is for historical completeness; I have several newer terminals/printers ;-)] Thanks. --barrym From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun May 24 13:09:39 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 14:09:39 -0400 Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs Message-ID: <0KK500DKKUD4OYDB@vms173017.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs > From: "bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca" > Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 10:58:20 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Dave McGuire wrote: > >> They go by the same designation over here. They're one of the worst >> connector designs I've ever seen. Not even suitable for VHF use, why on >> earth someone named them "UHF" is quite beyond me. Have you ever put >> one on a network analyzer? Bumps and reflections all over the place. > >If that is the connector I am thinking of ... UHF was 10MHZ+ ... it is that old. > >>> The BNC connecotr is a lot nicer. >> >> Twisting two pieces of wire together is a lot nicer than a PL259/SO239! >> >> -Dave > >No comment about RCA jacks .... Ok, I've measured correctly installed UHF (PL259 and So239) and the impedence bump is insignificant to low UHF. Their biggest weakness it they are not watertight. Believe it or not RCA is good to UHF (500mhz tested) and it's weakness is no built in retainer. It is good for chassis level interconnect to to 10-20W level (at uhf). Type BNC is very good to high uhf and beyond but power limited. Also you must use the 50 or 75 ohm parts in the correct place. It is a constant impedence connector. Type N is better at water tight and also higher power than BNC and handles larger cables. For UHF and higher SMA, SMC and relatives are prefered for lower power interconnect. Allison From lists at databasics.us Mon May 25 03:39:14 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 22:39:14 -1000 Subject: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing In-Reply-To: References: <222492.8669.qm@web112205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4A19CCA8.4000706@databasics.us> <5390CFE6-C98C-4B3E-B6C3-54E9E1FE7A9E@mail.msu.edu> <4A19ED8C.2070001@databasics.us> Message-ID: <4A1A5932.9060106@databasics.us> Josh Dersch wrote: Warren: Again, the "r" word... What's about my post makes it a rant? I mean, this is as if I were to accuse others of being paid by Microsoft... apparently anti-anti-Microsoft rants ARE allowed. Right? You are allowed to say whatever you want, but on a list such as this it is very rarely productive. This has to be the wisest statement in this thread, so far. No offense, but your musings seem to be more inflammatory than mere relations of experience -- stuff like "I could do a better job given the money". (paraphrasing since my phone won't do copy/paste) does not come without some emotional weight. No offense taken. Yes, my experiences have given me opinions. Humans are DESIGNED to form opinions and conclusions. The process does not always work correctly, but it is always working. Claims of utter objectivity by humans are utter bollocks. But, as opposed to a rant, I really DO wonder how software that has earned billions and lasted twenty years even has these issues. I've been involved in many software projects, and a lack of time is second only to a lack of money as an obstacle to stable code that does its job. So, I'm genuinely perplexed as to how this process works. I've no idea what your intent is, but as it is posts in this vein (see also emacs vs vi, apple vs anything...) mainly raise flames, they don't really promote useful discussion. I am less certain than you seem to be. I consider THIS to be useful discussion, for example. But... Yes, some subjects are close to pure flame bait. That doesn't mean that discussion is impossible -- just dangerous. Well, in that case I'd suggest the cause could be terrible hardware drivers. They are the cause of the vast majority of instability problems. I'd also suggest memtest86 to ferret out memory issues. I've come to the conclusion that it is the NVidia video card drivers. Others seem to use them well, though. Everything else is rather recent Dell drivers. *SIGH* Windows XP generally very stable. I have machines at work whose uptimes have only been interrupted by power failures. Good. I'd like to have that record going for me. If you get regular BSODs do a full dump and I can take a look to try and narrow down what's faulting. No, I don't generally get BSOD crashes. I just get response times that get so horrific that it will take 3-4 minutes to close a simple browser window, or to shut down Windows Explorer. As I say, with my preemptive reboots, I have not had these experiences recently. But, if left alone, they DO end up in BSOD. Would it be helpful to let it go there, just to get the dump? Actually, though, if you're good at the XP stuff, I have some files I can't delete I'd like to email you about privately... And thank you so much for your willingness to HELP in this. It's refreshing and a fine renewer of the faith! Thanks again, Warren From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon May 25 04:27:19 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 10:27:19 +0100 Subject: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing In-Reply-To: <200905242158.28494.fsmith@ladylinux.com> References: <200905242158.28494.fsmith@ladylinux.com> Message-ID: <1243243639.1088.11.camel@elric> On Sun, 2009-05-24 at 21:58 -0400, Fran C. Smith wrote: > On Sunday 24 May 2009 21:08:50 cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > NOOO Actually .. > > The real holy war is > > VI vs EMACS :-) ed is the standard editor. Gordon From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Mon May 25 04:34:46 2009 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 10:34:46 +0100 Subject: BA123's as furniture. . . In-Reply-To: <20090522094124.f739beec.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <8CBA8AC53B1B0B3-B34-309B@webmail-db06.sysops.aol.com> <20090522094124.f739beec.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <053C366AE0F14CFFB8BF08C8E72D3D49@EDIConsultingLtd.local> Ah but DEC did do real furniture. My desk in DEC Park had a fitting on the leg to mount a Rainbow. The colour monitor could be raised and lowered with two buttons built into edge of the desktop. One of those would be a real find. So in the early 1980's I had a desk mounted PC with a spreadsheet(Multiplan/Visicalc/Lotus/Symphony), Word processing (Wordstar/WPS), Worldwide internal Email (DEC all-in-one), Graphics (GKS) and a Database (dBaseII/Dec RDB). Plus with the Rainbows built in VT100 terminal emulation I could logon (SET HOST) to just about any DEC internal system (PDP11?s,VAX?s DEC10?s and 20?s) I also could dial out to bulletin boards from almost any system I was logged onto. Regards Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jochen Kunz Sent: 22 May 2009 08:41 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: BA123's as furniture. . . On Fri, 22 May 2009 00:24:26 -0400 tiggerlasv at aim.com wrote: > > * In my experience, lots of people used to sit on BA-123s, > > especially people who were large enough that they should have known > > better. > While I do agree that they should not be used as seating, > they do make nice occasional tables, nightstands, and end > tables. ;-) Please note 8. in the "Top 10 Signs that You are a VAX Geek" below. At this verry moment I am sitting at a desk build out of a Sun 3/260 and a BA440 DSSI disk box. My work bench in the machie room is supported by a VAX4000-200 and a HP900-750. Brian Chase, bdc at world.std.com 05 Oct 1997 __________________________________________________________________ Key traits identifying individuals tendencies towards abnormal preoccupation with VAX computer systems __________________________________________________________________ 9. When talking about building software you make reference to compilation times in weeks and days instead of minutes and seconds. 8. You stopped purchasing new furniture when you realized that your computers work just as well. 7. Your electricity bill is more than your monthly rent payment. 6. You've been hospitalized with muscle strain injuries after performing some routine hardware maintenance on your computer. 5. You don't have an SO, but it's okay because your computer keeps you warm at night. 4. While doing laundry, you occassionaly have a mental lapse and try to wash your socks and underwear in your 11/750. 3. Friends who visit you want to know why there are old-time movie reels stuck on your refridgerator(s). 2. Your house is pleasantly warm in the dead of winter, even with the air conditioning turned all the way up. 1. The lights in your home dim or flicker when you reboot. 0. It doesn't matter to you if someone else's computer is faster because you know your system could smash theirs flat if it fell over on it. And always remember, no matter what anyone else says. Bigger *IS* better. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From lists at databasics.us Mon May 25 04:36:05 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 23:36:05 -1000 Subject: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing In-Reply-To: <4A1A07A9.2010707@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200905242158.28494.fsmith@ladylinux.com> <4A1A0638.6010707@databasics.us> <4A1A07A9.2010707@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4A1A6685.3040907@databasics.us> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Warren Wolfe wrote: >> Fran C. Smith wrote: >>> NOOO Actually .. >>> The real holy war is >>> >>> VI vs EMACS :-) >>> >> Indeed. Can I hear an "AMEN?" >> > > Umm I dislike them *BOTH* Aha, an ATHEIST. Harumph. Warren From hoelscher-kirchbrak at freenet.de Mon May 25 04:49:26 2009 From: hoelscher-kirchbrak at freenet.de (hoelscher-kirchbrak at freenet.de) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 11:49:26 +0200 Subject: CI780 / CI750 manuals Message-ID: Has anyone got one or more of the following CI780 / CI750 manuals? - EK-CI750-TD CI750 TECHNICAL DESC MANUAL - EK-CI750-UG CI750 USERS GUIDE - EK-CI780-UG-001 CI780 User's Guide - EK-CIVAX-RM CI750 & 780 REFERENCE MANUAL Regards, Ulli #adBox3 {display:none;} From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Mon May 25 05:26:48 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 11:26:48 +0100 Subject: UHF plugs, was Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <93DA8D6C-7030-4009-8028-E9C2CE19B223@microspot.co.uk> My first oscilloscope was a 40MHz valve model made by EMI. All the scope probes were connected by UHF connectors, they were reliable and I never had any problem with them. Incidentally at first it confused me because the displayed signal went through a long delay (hundreds of inductors) whilst the trigger did not so I thought there must have been an earlier signal which triggered the sweep until I read the manual and realised I was looking at the entire rise of the signal which triggered the sweep. A lovely bit of kit but, though I still have it, valves, nor any analogue circuitry are in my repairing expertise. It even has a 25MHz dual trace plug-in unit. From lists at databasics.us Mon May 25 05:38:35 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 00:38:35 -1000 Subject: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing In-Reply-To: <01C9DCE2.96C9D8A0@mse-d03> References: <01C9DCE2.96C9D8A0@mse-d03> Message-ID: <4A1A752B.7000207@databasics.us> M H Stein wrote: Considering that many thousands if not millions of folks are happily using Windows and Microsoft apps 24/7 without any real problems, I think the fact that you and your clients are having such a different experience probably says more about you than Microsoft. Usually, my clients start out with the problems -- it's part of the installed software. And, shutting down their machines on a regular basis has come to be seen as normal by many, if not most, people using computers. But, thank GOD I now know, thanks to you, that it's all my problem. Of course, I should have known, since if it were a problem in the coding, why, the 'nets would be simply FILLED with complaints. Oh, wait... Writing an email program in BASIC 27 years ago hardly makes you an expert in properly configuring a system today, any more than my wiring IBM plugboards 45 years ago, and I don't think many folks here will be inpressed by your "25 years PC experience" either. I guess it should go without saying, but... You missed the point. I pointed out that I had been in electronic communications about as long as the subject has existed, making me an expert in forms of e-com, including the flame and troll. I stand by that. And, yes, electronic media tends to encourage people to post mean-spirited and personal messages, and say things they would never say face-to-face. Like your post here, for example. You're "confused" because you KNOW that you could have done a better job than Microsoft? Heh, I'm just amused... that's where you *really* lose credibility... Really? Don't YOU think that YOU, given billions of dollars, could run a team to produce a stable, functional operating platform for PCs? Especially after twenty years, don't you think you would have an impressive product? Cripes, that's time to learn programming, and do most of it yourself. Just a few people wrote Unix from its beginning to an incredibly stable and useful point in about nine years... and that's waiting from the first assembler pass all the way to the Seventh Edition. Don't you think you could manage a project like that if you had nearly unlimited funds and more than twice as much time to complete it? Frankly, I think almost anybody in the IT field could do it. But, thanks for providing a graphic illustration of why it's not wise to even discuss the subject. I tend to be too optimistic about these things, despite my long experience with electronic communications. I figure that a calm, rational discussion of limitations of products can take place as long as it doesn't start with some idiot yelling "MICRO$$$$$OFT SUXXORS!" But, for some reason, it usually doesn't stay rational for long. I assume that everybody involved in collecting classic computers is either, uh, "well-seasoned" or at least a very bright youngster. This has been true for every collector I've ever met, and it holds true for most of the people here, as well. While English is often not the strong suit of the collector type, cogent, succinct, informative posts are the norm from most people, yourself included. So, can you tell my why you produce a post such as this, full of condescension and insult? What is it that makes you post such a thing in public? I swear, when I read your post, I got a picture from a trip to the zoo I made as a child. One of the older gorillas became offended at something, and started beating his chest, and making the most disturbing of noises. No actual fecal material was thrown in this case, but the older gorilla DID club and mount the challenger. Let's hope your "aping" of this behavior is now over, and we can keep to a text format. Thanks. But, seriously, a reaction much like the one illustrated in the picture below would be reasonable.... http://www.afunnystuff.com/forumpics/notagain.jpg ... but I still don't get the reason for turning it personal. Not that I'm very concerned -- I have a thick skin. But I am curious about WHY things turn personal. Since I was not even addressing you, and then you personally attack me, it's clear that THIS is the starting point for personalizing an impersonal discussion. So... why? Warren From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Mon May 25 06:18:39 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 12:18:39 +0100 Subject: IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6F82F0F5-68D6-4007-A10F-DDBBBE05C618@microspot.co.uk> After a long wait, and paying unexpectedly high fees to the freight clearance company I finally have my hands on my 029 keypunch. To my surprise it has an extra wide punching station which apparently is an extra read head which allows it to be fed with ready-punched cards and the text to be printed at the top of the card. An interesting bonus. It uses the same wire relays which have been discussed here recently, and fortunately I have a 303 ammunition box full of spares including many of these from a verifier I broke up some years ago which I kept for my 836 punch. The rating plate shows .4kVA which is more than my Flexowriter transformer can handle so I have ordered a modern yellow industrial 110v socket so I can try it on a 3kVA transformer I have for an angle grinder. I have searched though eBay for normal US wall sockets and to my surprise cannot find them. I've tried all sorts of search terms but obviously have not hit the right combination, unless there is some law which prohibits them being sold retail or something like that. Probably me being stupid. Looking through the parts list there is something I'd like the list's opinion on. The diagram shows a transformer but the list says "REGULATOR ASM, FERRORESONANT-60CPS 120VA" and a similar option for 50Hz which of course I don't have. What are these for? Might they work at the wrong frequency? Will they be damaged or just not work? This is part of a 48v DC supply. Should I build a simple 48V supply myself or even see what I can find in my verifier spares? From jfoust at threedee.com Mon May 25 06:32:20 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 06:32:20 -0500 Subject: Aid for Bletchley Park rejected Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090525063155.08c1c7b8@mail.threedee.com> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8064184.stm - John From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 25 10:59:38 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 11:59:38 -0400 Subject: IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived In-Reply-To: <6F82F0F5-68D6-4007-A10F-DDBBBE05C618@microspot.co.uk> References: <6F82F0F5-68D6-4007-A10F-DDBBBE05C618@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <382631D2-7D32-481C-A6F3-42AE72850A39@neurotica.com> On May 25, 2009, at 7:18 AM, Roger Holmes wrote: > After a long wait, and paying unexpectedly high fees to the freight > clearance company I finally have my hands on my 029 keypunch. To my > surprise it has an extra wide punching station which apparently is > an extra read head which allows it to be fed with ready-punched > cards and the text to be printed at the top of the card. An > interesting bonus. It uses the same wire relays which have been > discussed here recently, and fortunately I have a 303 ammunition > box full of spares including many of these from a verifier I broke > up some years ago which I kept for my 836 punch. Neat! Pics!! > The rating plate shows .4kVA which is more than my Flexowriter > transformer can handle so I have ordered a modern yellow industrial > 110v socket so I can try it on a 3kVA transformer I have for an > angle grinder. I have searched though eBay for normal US wall > sockets and to my surprise cannot find them. I've tried all sorts > of search terms but obviously have not hit the right combination, > unless there is some law which prohibits them being sold retail or > something like that. Probably me being stupid. They're available everywhere here, and are cheap. I'm surprised that none are showing up on eBay...lots of smaller stores have good luck dumping overstocked items on eBay, so pretty much everything (new) shows up there sooner or later. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 25 11:04:30 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 12:04:30 -0400 Subject: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing In-Reply-To: <01C9DCE2.96C9D8A0@mse-d03> References: <01C9DCE2.96C9D8A0@mse-d03> Message-ID: On May 25, 2009, at 2:42 AM, M H Stein wrote: > Considering that many thousands if not millions of folks are happily > using Windows and Microsoft apps 24/7 without any real problems, That's just the thing, though: They don't. Some 88% of all spam today comes from Windows machines being remotely controlled without the knowledge of their owners. I fight it every day (I run a few large mail servers for people) and see the OS fingerprints. Further, I've reloaded several Windows machines for people since my social contacts around home have begun to branch out to include nontechnical folk. At least a dozen machines over the past year. The half-dozen Linux people and the two guys with Suns don't have any problems at all. So, I say with respect, please know what you're talking about before making big sweeping statements like that. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From lproven at gmail.com Mon May 25 11:49:43 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 17:49:43 +0100 Subject: Anyone interested in an Amstrad PCW? In-Reply-To: <4A168D51.9322.152E4978@cclist.sydex.com> References: <575131af0905221106g49b76901ne6d77fa931994e2d@mail.gmail.com> <4A168D51.9322.152E4978@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <575131af0905250949r353618bcy8d0d9a9e5ef6e3f5@mail.gmail.com> 2009/5/22 Chuck Guzis : > On 22 May 2009 at 19:06, Liam Proven wrote: > >> Lovely late-1980s vintage CP/M machine. A neighbour of mine has just >> found a forgotten PCW 8256 and she wants rid of it. >> >> It's in south London. > > If no nibbles, try posting on the Vintage Computer forum. ?I've got > one of these, fitted with 3.5" drives--for a CP/M box, it's not bad, > particularly if populated with lots of memory. ?Even better if it > comes with a ?serial I/O adapter and the printer's included. > > --Chuck Will do, but I've never had so much as a nibble from there thus far when trying to give away kit. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From eric at brouhaha.com Mon May 25 13:37:40 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 11:37:40 -0700 Subject: IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived In-Reply-To: <6F82F0F5-68D6-4007-A10F-DDBBBE05C618@microspot.co.uk> References: <6F82F0F5-68D6-4007-A10F-DDBBBE05C618@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <4A1AE574.20205@brouhaha.com> Roger Holmes wrote: > Looking through the parts list there is something I'd like the list's > opinion on. The diagram shows a transformer but the list says > "REGULATOR ASM, FERRORESONANT-60CPS 120VA" and a similar option for > 50Hz which of course I don't have. What are these for? Might they work > at the wrong frequency? A ferroresonant transformer will not work properly at the wrong frequency. > Will they be damaged or just not work? I don't think the transformer will be damaged, but it won't regulate properly. Maybe someone else here that knows more about ferroresonant transformers can provide an explanation of the results. At CHM, the IBM 1401 restoration team had the same issue when restoring a European 1401 in the US. They decided to get a power converter. (I don't recall whether they got a rotary converter or a solid-state inverter.) > This is part of a 48v DC supply. Should I build a simple 48V supply > myself or even see what I can find in my verifier spares? Yes, replacing the power supply is probably your best options. Eric From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon May 25 13:46:48 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 11:46:48 -0700 Subject: IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived References: <6F82F0F5-68D6-4007-A10F-DDBBBE05C618@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <4A1AE798.E2EA4E61@cs.ubc.ca> Roger Holmes wrote: > Looking through the parts list there is something I'd like the list's > opinion on. The diagram shows a transformer but the list says > "REGULATOR ASM, FERRORESONANT-60CPS 120VA" and a similar option for > 50Hz which of course I don't have. What are these for? Might they work > at the wrong frequency? Will they be damaged or just not work? This is > part of a 48v DC supply. Should I build a simple 48V supply myself or > even see what I can find in my verifier spares? Ferro-resonant regulators are a type of AC regulator using a special transformer tailored to operate with the core around the flux saturation level. Operated in this manner the output is regulated because the amount the magnetic flux can change is limited. The transformer has a special winding on it with a capacitor (may look similar to a motor start cap) connected across, which is where the resonant aspect comes in, and hence dependance on the operating frequency. I don't know enough about them to say precisely what will happen when operated significantly off the target design frequency: whether the output will change, loss of regulation capability, excessive power consumption/heating, some combination of the above... other than to say I expect 50 Hz vs 60Hz is more than enough to matter. To my limited observation, IBM was rather fond of ferro-resonant regulators. I had an IBM modem/store-loop controller at one time, the logic power supply being a ferro-resonant transformer (no power transistors anywhere). It's one reason some IBM equipment seems excessively heavy, the ferro-resonant transformer (with cap) being typically heavier than would otherwise be required for the same amount of power. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 25 13:11:06 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 19:11:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: UHF plugs, was Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: <93DA8D6C-7030-4009-8028-E9C2CE19B223@microspot.co.uk> from "Roger Holmes" at May 25, 9 11:26:48 am Message-ID: > > My first oscilloscope was a 40MHz valve model made by EMI. My first 'socpe (which I still have) is a little 15MHz Solartron (double beam, I have the optioanl delayed timebase for it). It, too, uses SO239 sockets for all the inputs. I think some older Teks did too. but it was a common mod to replace them with BNCs (wheter this improved the performance I doubt, but it made it easier to use 'normal' probes). > All the scope probes were connected by UHF connectors, they were > reliable and I never had any problem with them. One advantage for DC/audio work is that a 4mm banana plug will push into the middle of the SO239 socket. The Solartron I mentioned has 4mm holes dripped into the heads of the plug-in module fixing bolts to use as a ground connection. > > Incidentally at first it confused me because the displayed signal went > through a long delay (hundreds of inductors) whilst the trigger did Tektronix did that too... One word of warning -- these delay lines are _hell_ to set up properly (I head from a chap who worked at Tek that some people could do it almost instantly, others could never get it right). Don't tweak them unless you really know it's essential, and only then if you have all the recomended test gear (in the case of a Tek 500 series, you need a special Y plug-in module containing a mercury relay to put a fast rise step into the Y amplifier). > not so I thought there must have been an earlier signal which > triggered the sweep until I read the manual and realised I was looking > at the entire rise of the signal which triggered the sweep. A lovely > bit of kit but, though I still have it, valves, nor any analogue > circuitry are in my repairing expertise. Now's the time to learn. It's actually not that hard to repair, much harder to design, such things. I've never had any real problems keeping my valved instruments going. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 25 12:51:18 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 18:51:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: <4A195B4C.13946.20232AB9@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 24, 9 02:35:56 pm Message-ID: > How many young engineers even know what "DCC" (as in "#18 AWG DCC) For wire, or light bulbs ? I guess the former, since you give an AWG size (more likely to be SWG [1] over here), in which case it's 'Double Cotton Covered' (there's also DSC, the 'S' being silk). For light bulbs it's 'Double Contact Cap', meaning a bayonet cap with 2 solder-blob contacts on the base, like the common household bulb in the UK. [1] Totally useless piece of trivia : Old UK knitting needle numbers are the diameter using the SWG standard. Next time your wife/girlfriend/SO needs to convert that to the diameter in mm, produce a set of wire tables and see what an odd look you get :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 25 12:57:59 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 18:57:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at May 24, 9 09:22:44 pm Message-ID: > > N connectors suffer a fatal flaw - use the wrong plug in the wrong > socket, and you are screwed. Mixing 50 and 75 Ohm Ns will either > result in a crummy connection or a possibly ruined part. I asusme this is due to a different diameter central pin -- small pin in large socket causes a bad connection, large pin in small socket wrecks th socket. I've heard this claimed of BNCs too, but I've seen measurements made on new, good-qulaity BNC plugs (Amphenol, Greenpar, etc) which indicate the central pins are the same diameter and there is no possiblilty of damage by using the 'wrong' plug. Has anyone got measurements for N connectors? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 25 13:04:01 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 19:04:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: BA123's as furniture. . . In-Reply-To: <053C366AE0F14CFFB8BF08C8E72D3D49@EDIConsultingLtd.local> from "Rod Smallwood" at May 25, 9 10:34:46 am Message-ID: > Ah but DEC did do real furniture.=20 > > My desk in DEC Park had a fitting on the leg to mount a=20 > > Rainbow. The colour monitor could be raised and lowered with two buttons > built into edge of the desktop.=20 > > One of those would be a real find. Are they that rare? I have one, currently in pieces for storage, but I have all the bits, of course. Mine came with a Pro350 in the CPU holder, but from what I rememebr the holder is s pieces of metal screwed togather and can be assmebled in one of 2 positions to take the smaller ('Bow and Decmate) or larger (Pro) CPU boxes Actually, mine might be slightly different, in that the raise/lower cotnrol is a foot-opereted thing (not strictly a pedal, you push it backwards, not downad) at the bottom of the desk. That opperates a capacitor-run motor in the base which turns a screw to move the monitor pillare up and down. The desktop (large enough for an LK201 and a few other htings) has a manually-operated ratchet mechanism to set the height. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 25 13:48:05 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 19:48:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived In-Reply-To: <6F82F0F5-68D6-4007-A10F-DDBBBE05C618@microspot.co.uk> from "Roger Holmes" at May 25, 9 12:18:39 pm Message-ID: > > The rating plate shows .4kVA which is more than my Flexowriter > transformer can handle so I have ordered a modern yellow industrial > 110v socket so I can try it on a 3kVA transformer I have for an angle I assume you want a 110 _plug_ here to fit your tool transformer. The output of such transformers is centre-tapped to ground, that is neither side is groudned (or close to ground). Most stuff doesn't mind this, but I'd check the schematics to be sure. > grinder. I have searched though eBay for normal US wall sockets and to > my surprise cannot find them. I've tried all sorts of search terms but > obviously have not hit the right combination, unless there is some law > which prohibits them being sold retail or something like that. > Probably me being stupid. IIRC the brand name to look for is 'Hubble' I seem to rememebr RS components sell the cable-mounting version, but they are fairly expensive. Alteratively by an 'exension cord' as they're called in the States and cut the plug end off and wire it to your BS4343 plug. > > Looking through the parts list there is something I'd like the list's > opinion on. The diagram shows a transformer but the list says > "REGULATOR ASM, FERRORESONANT-60CPS 120VA" and a similar option for > 50Hz which of course I don't have. What are these for? Might they work Ferroresonant transformers have an extra secondary winding resonated to a harmonic of the mains freqeucny by a capacitor (normally clamped to the transfomer core). Such transformers have a fairly stable output voltage, which is why they're used in older competer equipment when electronic regulators were complicated and expensive. > at the wrong frequency? Will they be damaged or just not work? This is They certainly won't work properly at the wrong frequency. If you are lucky there will be multiple taps on the 'capacitor' winding for different frequencies. If you're even luckier the tap setting will be docuemtned. Something I've never tried, but which may well work is to regard said winding as a simple LC resonant circuit, remember that f ~ 1/sqrt(C) and thus calculate the new value of capacitor needed given the 2 frequencies and the size of the '60Hz' capacitor. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 25 13:53:53 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 19:53:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived In-Reply-To: <4A1AE574.20205@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at May 25, 9 11:37:40 am Message-ID: > > This is part of a 48v DC supply. Should I build a simple 48V supply > > myself or even see what I can find in my verifier spares? > Yes, replacing the power supply is probably your best options. That's something I'd not want to do, simply because it's not original. I really like to keep the original circuit design throughout the machine, even in things like PSUs Of coruse anothter 48V PSU will work, but the keypunch (or whatever) is no longer the same piece of hardware. It's certainly an option to consider to get the machine working while you're trying to get the ferrorresonant supply to work (or while you're trying to get a replacement ferroresonant trasnformer for 50Hz mains) -tony From tiggerlasv at aim.com Mon May 25 13:59:21 2009 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 14:59:21 -0400 Subject: IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived Message-ID: <8CBAB820C803DA9-1424-14FD@WEBMAIL-MZ08.sysops.aol.com> On Mon May 25, Roger Holmes wrote: > I have searched though eBay for normal US wall sockets and to > my surprise cannot find them. I've tried all sorts of search terms but > obviously have not hit the right combination, unless there is some law > which prohibits them being sold retail or something like that. Not too many folks out here refer to them as sockets anymore; that term is typically reserved for light bulbs, though there is some variation, based on age, and geographical location. Generally, people call them "outlets", but the NEMA terminology is "receptacle". Do an e-bay search on: +receptacle 20A 20 Amp (include the + sign) check-mark "include titles and descriptions" . . . and then sort by price+shipping lowest first. That should help you find what you're looking for. . . From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon May 25 14:29:26 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 20:29:26 +0100 Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1243279766.3387.2.camel@kusanagi> On Mon, 2009-05-25 at 18:57 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > N connectors suffer a fatal flaw - use the wrong plug in the wrong > > socket, and you are screwed. Mixing 50 and 75 Ohm Ns will either > > result in a crummy connection or a possibly ruined part. > > I asusme this is due to a different diameter central pin -- small pin in > large socket causes a bad connection, large pin in small socket wrecks th > socket. I don't know about the pin diameter, but 50-ohm BNC plugs have a plastic bush inside the outer ring and 75-ohm plugs don't. I don't think a 50-ohm plug will even fit a 75-ohm socket. Gordon From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Mon May 25 14:29:41 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 20:29:41 +0100 Subject: IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6B441B97-F036-4E12-9BD5-8140A0EDEB62@microspot.co.uk> > From: Dave McGuire >> After a long wait, and paying unexpectedly high fees to the freight >> clearance company I finally have my hands on my 029 keypunch. To my >> surprise it has an extra wide punching station which apparently is >> an extra read head which allows it to be fed with ready-punched >> cards and the text to be printed at the top of the card. An >> interesting bonus. It uses the same wire relays which have been >> discussed here recently, and fortunately I have a 303 ammunition >> box full of spares including many of these from a verifier I broke >> up some years ago which I kept for my 836 punch. > > Neat! Pics!! The eBay pictures are here: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=290305495283 or if that doesn't work just try item 290305495283 Or did you mean pictures of the 836 or the spares, or even the ammunition box? > > >> The rating plate shows .4kVA which is more than my Flexowriter >> transformer can handle so I have ordered a modern yellow industrial >> 110v socket so I can try it on a 3kVA transformer I have for an >> angle grinder. I have searched though eBay for normal US wall >> sockets and to my surprise cannot find them. I've tried all sorts >> of search terms but obviously have not hit the right combination, >> unless there is some law which prohibits them being sold retail or >> something like that. Probably me being stupid. > > They're available everywhere here, and are cheap. I'm surprised > that none are showing up on eBay...lots of smaller stores have good > luck dumping overstocked items on eBay, so pretty much everything > (new) shows up there sooner or later. > > -Dave > From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Mon May 25 15:02:51 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 13:02:51 -0700 Subject: N connector; was Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs References: Message-ID: <000501c9dd73$c9007e00$0201a8c0@hal9000> There are two types of N connectors, one for 50 Ohms and one for 75 Ohms. The N connector is controlled by MIL-C-39012. 50 Ohm N type connector center pin - 0.0650 ? 0.0005 75 Ohm N type connector center pin - 0.0355 ? 0.0005 Plugging a 50 Ohm male connector into a 75 Ohm female will damage it. Plugging a 75 Ohm male connector into a 50 Ohm female will provide a crappy connection. Best regards, Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Monday, May 25, 2009 10:57 AM Subject: Re: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs > > > > N connectors suffer a fatal flaw - use the wrong plug in the wrong > > socket, and you are screwed. Mixing 50 and 75 Ohm Ns will either > > result in a crummy connection or a possibly ruined part. > > I asusme this is due to a different diameter central pin -- small pin in > large socket causes a bad connection, large pin in small socket wrecks th > socket. > > I've heard this claimed of BNCs too, but I've seen measurements made on > new, good-qulaity BNC plugs (Amphenol, Greenpar, etc) which indicate the > central pins are the same diameter and there is no possiblilty of damage > by using the 'wrong' plug. Has anyone got measurements for N connectors? > > -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 25 15:01:51 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 13:01:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing In-Reply-To: <4A1A5932.9060106@databasics.us> References: <222492.8669.qm@web112205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4A19CCA8.4000706@databasics.us> <5390CFE6-C98C-4B3E-B6C3-54E9E1FE7A9E@mail.msu.edu> <4A19ED8C.2070001@databasics.us> <4A1A5932.9060106@databasics.us> Message-ID: <20090525125640.Y74783@shell.lmi.net> Could y'all take the issues with CURRENT MICROS~1 products private for another 5 years or so? I'm still dealing with VINTAGE Microsoft issues, such as wrong error message when the FORMAT buffer happens to straddle a 64K boundary, or how SMARTDRV handles a write error. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From eric at brouhaha.com Mon May 25 15:04:34 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 13:04:34 -0700 Subject: IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A1AF9D2.4040208@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Yes, replacing the power supply is probably your best options. Tony Duell wrote: >> That's something I'd not want to do, simply because it's not original. A working machine with a non-original part is far more interesting to me than a non-working machine with an original part. I'd certainly keep the original, and not make any permanent changes. Eric From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 25 15:07:10 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 13:07:10 -0700 Subject: BA123's as furniture. . . In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 7:04 PM +0100 5/25/09, Tony Duell wrote: > > Ah but DEC did do real furniture.=20 >> >> My desk in DEC Park had a fitting on the leg to mount a=20 >> >> Rainbow. The colour monitor could be raised and lowered with two buttons >> built into edge of the desktop.=20 >> >> One of those would be a real find. > >Are they that rare? I have one, currently in pieces for storage, but I My guess is how rare they are depends on where you are. Sort of like the PDT-11's. They're also the sort of thing where most likely didn't make it into the wild, but rather headed to the scrap heap. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 25 15:18:16 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 13:18:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing In-Reply-To: <4A1A752B.7000207@databasics.us> References: <01C9DCE2.96C9D8A0@mse-d03> <4A1A752B.7000207@databasics.us> Message-ID: <20090525130448.N74783@shell.lmi.net> > Writing an email program in BASIC 27 years ago hardly makes you an > expert in properly configuring a system today, any more than my wiring > IBM plugboards 45 years ago, and I don't think many folks here will be > inpressed by your "25 years PC experience" either. absolutely. But, do y'all have to constantly remind me how old I'm getting? BTW, the 5150 ("Danger to itself and others") came out in August 1981, long after many other machines were well established, so your "BASIC" and "PC experience" years += about 5. When I was a lttle kid, I asked what "spindle" meant, and why there was any need to say, "Do not fold, spindle, staple, or mutilate." -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From lproven at gmail.com Mon May 25 15:26:46 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 21:26:46 +0100 Subject: Looking for Mac Color Classic motherboard In-Reply-To: <4A1087B8.8020706@mail.msu.edu> References: <4A0F90A2.5020701@mail.msu.edu> <4A0F9667.4020801@tdh.com> <4A0FA01F.9040908@mail.msu.edu> <4A0F4957.27540.7D57F2A@cclist.sydex.com> <4A1087B8.8020706@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <575131af0905251326l5993d38cmbf435bc6a5d08ef5@mail.gmail.com> 2009/5/17 Josh Dersch : > > I don't have a dishwasher :), but I carefully scrubbed it w/soap & water & a > toothbrush (and a bit of WD-40 to help loosen the corrosion). ?It doesn't > look as terrible now. > > I put a good PRAM battery in, and cleaned off the edge connectors. > ?Unfortunately I get nothing when I power the system on. ?(It's a two-step > process -- there's a main switch on the back, but the power key on the > keyboard is what tells the system to power on.) ?Without the motherboard > installed, the fan kicks in and the hard drive powers up, so I know the > power supply is working (voltages seem to be fine.) > > The only diagnostic ref I can find is a really really basic board-swapping > checklist. ?Any suggestions on what to check that is preventing the machine > from powering on? If you decide to go that route, I think I have a Performa 6200 in the garage somewhere... You could have the motherboard out of that, if you wish. Free for the postage from the UK. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 25 15:34:46 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 13:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived In-Reply-To: <6F82F0F5-68D6-4007-A10F-DDBBBE05C618@microspot.co.uk> References: <6F82F0F5-68D6-4007-A10F-DDBBBE05C618@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <20090525132100.Y74783@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 25 May 2009, Roger Holmes wrote: > After a long wait, and paying unexpectedly high fees to the freight > clearance company I finally have my hands on my 029 keypunch. To my > surprise it has an extra wide punching station which apparently is an > extra read head which allows it to be fed with ready-punched cards and > the text to be printed at the top of the card. An interesting bonus. Sweet! The [somewhat rare] interpreting feature is especially important, since the stand alone-interpreter prints 60 columns, instead of the 80, and therefore doesn't align the print with the punches. > The rating plate shows .4kVA which is more than my Flexowriter > transformer can handle so I have ordered a modern yellow industrial > 110v socket so I can try it on a 3kVA transformer I have for an angle > grinder. I have searched though eBay for normal US wall sockets and to > my surprise cannot find them. I've tried all sorts of search terms but > obviously have not hit the right combination, unless there is some law > which prohibits them being sold retail or something like that. > Probably me being stupid. More likely two peoples divided by a common language. The piece in the USA wall is called an "outlet" or "receptacle". If you can't find them, one of us can send you some. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 25 16:08:50 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 17:08:50 -0400 Subject: FA: Synertek SYM In-Reply-To: <4A1813C7.9080606@cimmeri.com> References: <4A125DFF.8070401@softjar.se> <184EA6D5-30D8-4ADF-9E02-E7831708BF7B@neurotica.com> <4A16D836.1020403@cimmeri.com> <4A16F50C.4090007@cimmeri.com> <4A17AD33.6060809@brouhaha.com> <4A1813C7.9080606@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 11:18 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > Thanks. ?Btw, adding the RAM, ROM, and a Commodore C1541 drive are all > trivial. ? I have the RAM for it already. Adding a C= 1541 is on my list too, but not very close to the top of the list, admittedly. -ethan From doug at stillhq.com Mon May 25 16:37:47 2009 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 07:37:47 +1000 Subject: Anyone interested in an Amstrad PCW? In-Reply-To: <575131af0905250949r353618bcy8d0d9a9e5ef6e3f5@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0905221106g49b76901ne6d77fa931994e2d@mail.gmail.com> <4A168D51.9322.152E4978@cclist.sydex.com> <575131af0905250949r353618bcy8d0d9a9e5ef6e3f5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A1B0FAB.5020603@stillhq.com> Hi, Just so you know - the only reason why I am not nibbling is that I am located in Australia, and it would be expensive to ship it over here. Sorry. Doug :-( :-) Liam Proven wrote: > 2009/5/22 Chuck Guzis : > >> On 22 May 2009 at 19:06, Liam Proven wrote: >> >> >>> Lovely late-1980s vintage CP/M machine. A neighbour of mine has just >>> found a forgotten PCW 8256 and she wants rid of it. >>> >>> It's in south London. >>> >> If no nibbles, try posting on the Vintage Computer forum. I've got >> one of these, fitted with 3.5" drives--for a CP/M box, it's not bad, >> particularly if populated with lots of memory. Even better if it >> comes with a serial I/O adapter and the printer's included. >> >> --Chuck >> > > Will do, but I've never had so much as a nibble from there thus far > when trying to give away kit. > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 25 16:49:23 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 15:49:23 -0600 Subject: Anyone interested in an Amstrad PCW? In-Reply-To: <4A1B0FAB.5020603@stillhq.com> References: <575131af0905221106g49b76901ne6d77fa931994e2d@mail.gmail.com> <4A168D51.9322.152E4978@cclist.sydex.com> <575131af0905250949r353618bcy8d0d9a9e5ef6e3f5@mail.gmail.com> <4A1B0FAB.5020603@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <4A1B1263.8000301@jetnet.ab.ca> Doug Jackson wrote: > Hi, > > Just so you know - the only reason why I am not nibbling is that I am > located in Australia, and it would be expensive to ship it over here. > > Sorry. So what did you have down under for PC's. Here Amstrad == old 286's with CGA and HD and a time of day clock that don't work! > Doug :-( > > :-) > From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 25 17:02:01 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 15:02:01 -0700 Subject: Anyone interested in an Amstrad PCW? In-Reply-To: <4A1B0FAB.5020603@stillhq.com> References: <575131af0905221106g49b76901ne6d77fa931994e2d@mail.gmail.com>, <575131af0905250949r353618bcy8d0d9a9e5ef6e3f5@mail.gmail.com>, <4A1B0FAB.5020603@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <4A1AB2E9.3817.2561AF3B@cclist.sydex.com> Liam Proven wrote: > > Will do, but I've never had so much as a nibble from there thus far > when trying to give away kit. I'll add a comment to your listing, explaining exactly what it is that you're offering, if it will help. The Amstrad PCW did make a brief US appearance, being sold by Sears Roebuck in their retail computer stores (mine is such a machine, operating from 120v 60Hz power). I suspect it was the difficulty in finding 3" CF floppies that caused them to disappear into the depths of attics and basements. The WP software was actually pretty good--and they could also run CP/M 3.0. A bit unique in being a low-end Z80 personal computer that had no hardware text display capability--it's all graphics. --Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 25 17:13:20 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 22:13:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Computer (Trading) Cards Message-ID: <928496.3819.qm@web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi, (The first paragraph is OT so you can skip if you want) I just rediscovered the world of trading cards, thanks to model Chanel Ryan. She recently mentioned that she had some Benchwarmer cards, so I just bought one of her cards on ebay, which reminded me of my Buffy & Angel cardsets. I have a full set of Buffy seasons 1-3 and recently bought one from season 7 on ebay. Whilst cataloging the cards (I wanted to know whether I had any spares I can sell online - I have plenty of spares for Angel season 1 if anyone is interested!) I started to wonder whether there exists a set for classic computers. If not, has anyone thought of attempting to produce a trading card set... though I suspect a card set (so you have a full set from the start, rather than having to trade to get the full set (hence trade in brackets in the subject title)) would be a better idea. I was initially thinking of a set of say 90 cards, with one or two cards per computer, but then got to thinking that with so many computer enthusiasts on here perhaps a set per computer would be feasible? I guess it depends how much info you have per computer. I realise the market for such things wouldn't be hugely profitable, but it would be great for someone like myself that only knows alot of computers by name. Does anyone have any comments / suggestions? It's purely an idea at this point, so no orders please! Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From lists at databasics.us Mon May 25 18:36:51 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 13:36:51 -1000 Subject: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing In-Reply-To: <20090525130448.N74783@shell.lmi.net> References: <01C9DCE2.96C9D8A0@mse-d03> <4A1A752B.7000207@databasics.us> <20090525130448.N74783@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4A1B2B93.3060107@databasics.us> Fred Cisin wrote: BTW, the 5150 ("Danger to itself and others") came out in August 1981, long after many other machines were well established, so your "BASIC" and "PC experience" years += about 5. Hi, Fred. You were looking at a partial quote of what I wrote. The e-mail program was in HP Timeshare BASIC, 1971 & 1972. PCs, used on a daily basis since about a year after they came out. When I was a lttle kid, I asked what "spindle" meant, and why there was any need to say, "Do not fold, spindle, staple, or mutilate." Heh. If one were writing that now, it would be "shish-kebob" rather than "spindle." But, do y'all have to constantly remind me how old I'm getting? Get off my lawn. Warren From doug at stillhq.com Mon May 25 18:38:02 2009 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 09:38:02 +1000 Subject: Anyone interested in an Amstrad PCW? In-Reply-To: <4A1B1263.8000301@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <575131af0905221106g49b76901ne6d77fa931994e2d@mail.gmail.com> <4A168D51.9322.152E4978@cclist.sydex.com> <575131af0905250949r353618bcy8d0d9a9e5ef6e3f5@mail.gmail.com> <4A1B0FAB.5020603@stillhq.com> <4A1B1263.8000301@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4A1B2BDA.4090205@stillhq.com> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > > So what did you have down under for PC's. Here Amstrad == old 286's > with CGA and HD and a time of > day clock that don't work! > No, In Australia, Amstrad sold a bunch of machines, ranging from a set of Z80 systems, some with onboard cassette, through to 3 inch mini floppy, to a single case system with floppys onboard. Yes, they did make a PC compatible system, but if you see any of my other posts, that is in the 'booring' category. Doug From doug at stillhq.com Mon May 25 18:52:58 2009 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 09:52:58 +1000 Subject: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing [ Off topic warning!] In-Reply-To: <4A1B2B93.3060107@databasics.us> References: <01C9DCE2.96C9D8A0@mse-d03> <4A1A752B.7000207@databasics.us> <20090525130448.N74783@shell.lmi.net> <4A1B2B93.3060107@databasics.us> Message-ID: <4A1B2F5A.1050905@stillhq.com> > > When I was a lttle kid, I asked what "spindle" meant, and why there > was > any need to say, "Do not fold, spindle, staple, or mutilate." > When I was a youngster (18), I worked at the Australian National University in the research School of Physical Sciences. I was a trainee in the Electronics Unit. We got to repair Altairs, and Imsais, and Intel MDS systems - drool now - I had no idea how much I would miss them when they went.... Real machines - None of these fancy switch mode power supplies.... BIG caps... BIG transformers... These machines were used extensively to control experiments. We also has a wonderful mechanical engineering department that 'could make anything!'. One of the silly memories I have is turning 18. One of my presents from the guys was a new accelerator pedal for my car, that contained a small hole in the pedal. Mounted under the small hole was a spindle that would protrude through the hole when the accelerator was pressed harder than 80% of its travel. Kind of a active, biometric feedback system, designed to reduce the acceleration rate of my car..... I don't know what they were complaining about :-P It is funny what a single word can make you remember! From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon May 25 22:46:23 2009 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 22:46:23 -0500 Subject: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing References: <222492.8669.qm@web112205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4A19CCA8.4000706@databasics.us> Message-ID: <00d401c9ddb4$8a70f480$c900a8c0@JWEST> Someone wrote.... >You like telling others what to do, don't you? Sorry. I can tell I'm >going to be a frustration to you. I asked nicely... c'mon, lets get away from this type of schtuff. From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon May 25 22:48:50 2009 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 22:48:50 -0500 Subject: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing References: <222492.8669.qm@web112205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4A19CCA8.4000706@databasics.us><5390CFE6-C98C-4B3E-B6C3-54E9E1FE7A9E@mail.msu.edu><4A19ED8C.2070001@databasics.us> Message-ID: <010701c9ddb4$e22e59b0$c900a8c0@JWEST> It was written... > You are allowed to say whatever you want, but on a list such as this > it is very rarely productive. Nor, on this list, is it allowed. From dm561 at torfree.net Mon May 25 22:46:58 2009 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 23:46:58 -0400 Subject: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing Message-ID: <01C9DD93.DE23F800@MSE_D03> -------------Original Message: Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 00:38:35 -1000 From: Warren Wolfe Subject: Re: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing ... but I still don't get the reason for turning it personal. Not that I'm very concerned -- I have a thick skin. But I am curious about WHY things turn personal. Since I was not even addressing you, and then you personally attack me, it's clear that THIS is the starting point for personalizing an impersonal discussion. So... why? Warren -----------------Reply: Sorry you took it personally and chose to reply the way you did, but hey, my skin's also thick enough to withstand your sarcasm... All I was saying is that I and perhaps even some others are not impressed by statements like, "I've been in this business 25 years!" and "I could have done a better job than Microsoft!" and perhaps that sort of breast-beating doesn't help the credibility of your arguments. And yeah, when I take my car to the dealership complaining about the flickering lights and he says, "that's a problem with that model; it's crap. Just pound on the dash every now and then," I'm inclined to go to another dealer, especially since I have two friends with the same model who don't have that problem. If you actually took the time to find out why your systems are having problems and posted that on a relevant forum that would be useful; as others said before me, just the tired old "Microsoft software is crap and/or oughta be better" really just wastes bandwidth (like this post of mine) and got old long ago. Keep on rebooting and bashing as much as you like, with my blessings! If you've got some more sarcasm to get rid of, see me off-list. m From dm561 at torfree.net Mon May 25 22:50:48 2009 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 23:50:48 -0400 Subject: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing Message-ID: <01C9DD93.DF59B8E0@MSE_D03> -------------Original Message Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 12:04:30 -0400 From: Dave McGuire Subject: Re: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing On May 25, 2009, at 2:42 AM, M H Stein wrote: > Considering that many thousands if not millions of folks are happily > using Windows and Microsoft apps 24/7 without any real problems, That's just the thing, though: They don't. Some 88% of all spam today comes from Windows machines being remotely controlled without the knowledge of their owners. I fight it every day (I run a few large mail servers for people) and see the OS fingerprints. Further, I've reloaded several Windows machines for people since my social contacts around home have begun to branch out to include nontechnical folk. At least a dozen machines over the past year. The half-dozen Linux people and the two guys with Suns don't have any problems at all. So, I say with respect, please know what you're talking about before making big sweeping statements like that. -Dave > -----------Reply: Really? You can't imagine that even as few as 1 in 1000 or so of the estimated billion-plus computers out there (including probably quite a few million not even connected to the Internet) could just quietly and reliably be using Windows and MS apps day after day to process documents, update spreadsheets, manage doctors' and dentists' appointments, issue invoices, print reports, exchange emails, etc., etc. etc. without ever seeing a BSOD, rebooting or reinstalling Windows? FWIW in my circle of friends and clients who look to me for advice and support it's actually more like 8 out of ten, and 1.5 out of the remaining two are user-caused; if any of my corporate clients' Windows servers and desktops were as unreliable as some folks suggest, then heads would roll pretty quickly. Sure, computers and software are not without problems, and Microsoft's no doubt more than any other; spambots etc. are a PITA reality and in keeping with today's mores of course it's Microsoft's fault for not making a foolproof lock, and not the burglar's or the homeowner who didn't bother to lock the door. Let's just say we see the world through different perspectives shaped by different experiences... m From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon May 25 23:02:25 2009 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 23:02:25 -0500 Subject: Washing machine drives References: <4A1702EA.2070905@vaxen.net> <200905231347.n4NDl9Sk056629@keith.ezwind.net> <4A184B0B.1030509@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <01c801c9ddb6$c7e26860$c900a8c0@JWEST> Jim S. wrote... > I don't know if Jay recalls this, but it was in either 1972 or 1973. Nope. I didn't hit UMR till '82 :) From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon May 25 23:04:58 2009 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 23:04:58 -0500 Subject: Washing machine drives References: <41A808202E824CA8B2A8E60EF9C41833@RosemarysPC> Message-ID: <01d101c9ddb7$23060300$c900a8c0@JWEST> Billy P. wrote.... By the way, Jay still hasn't approved my new ISP so I'm still not on the list. Sorry Billy, I just approved it. If you (or anyone) has an issue, just email me directly. Best regards, Jay From bqt at softjar.se Mon May 25 13:12:05 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 20:12:05 +0200 Subject: Editors (was: Re: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A1ADF75.3040103@softjar.se> "Fran C. Smith" wrote: > > NOOO Actually .. > > The real holy war is > > VI vs EMACS :-) Pfft. Both are for clueless newbies. The only editor is TECO. Anything else can be implemented in TECO, if I really need it. With a half :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Mon May 25 13:25:50 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 20:25:50 +0200 Subject: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A1AE2AE.8000500@softjar.se> Warren Wolfe wrote: > Considering that many thousands if not millions of folks are happily > using Windows and Microsoft apps 24/7 without any real problems, > I think the fact that you and your clients are having such a different > experience probably says more about you than Microsoft. Maybe you > should try to find out what the problem actually is with your particular > installations and fix it, instead of just complaining about Microsoft and > rebooting twice a day; I don't think I or any of my clients would put up > with that for very long. This just begs for a short reply. (Sorry, I just can't resist...) Show me a *single* site that is running Windows 24/7 without rebooting several times a month, *minimum*. Considering that Microsoft regularly sends updates that *require* reboots, I doubt you can show me any. So those thousands, if not millions, are just a myth. They don't exist. But people have become too blind to the regular reboots to even notice. But Microsoft certainly would like to get you to think that Windows is that stable. And trying to surpress the voice of people who say that it is not, is the first, and most important step in the propaganda wars. And that is what is going on here. People are using all kind of arguments to try and prove that Windows is stable. And for the record, I don't see the bsod that often anymore. But I do experience that after running XP for a week or so, it gets very slow, and almost unusable. I *do* need to reboot it, to keep using it. But I can't send a crash dump, because I don't get one. If someone could do an analysis of what happens, and why, I'd be most happy. I've tried registry tools to optimize that, I've tried disk defragmenting, tried monitoring processes, memory usage, and what not. There are a (very) large number of processes active after a while that I don't know exactly what they do, but they sure look legitimate, and I've tried running any number of antivirus programs and scanners without finding anything. And I've also been in contact with Microsoft support in the past, who have recommended reinstalling the system to get it back in shape. The only good argument for surpression of this thread that I've seen is that it really is off topic. But on the other hand, I do consider it an important general service to the civilization to actually keep repeating that Windows is a bad product, or otherwise the domination will become total, and it's bad enough as it is. If people don't speak up against it, Windows will win by default. So, you Windows advocates drop it (after all, you started it), this thread will die the death it deserves. You'll survive even if you loose this battle, since you appear to be winning the war anyway. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Tue May 26 00:00:50 2009 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 00:00:50 -0500 Subject: Anyone heard of a North Plug or IBM wire relays ... Re:Jonesplugs, or similar sorts of plugs References: <462053.13883.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com><4A16F3C5.53BAA472@cs.ubc.ca><4A1723A0.9060400@nktelco.net><4A185A57.2010605@nktelco.net><002d01c9dc19$177a6480$6400a8c0@acerd3c08b49af> Message-ID: <002901c9ddbe$f116d560$6400a8c0@acerd3c08b49af> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Loewen" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 7:50 AM Subject: Re: Anyone heard of a North Plug or IBM wire relays ... Re:Jonesplugs, or similar sorts of plugs > On Sat, 23 May 2009, CSquared wrote: > >>> From your img_4676.jpg I would say those are exactly what I was trying >>> to >> describe, including the crimp terminal plugs. And yes, they did come in >> different widths depending on how many poles were required at that point >> in the logic. > > If you haven't already found it, this IBM CE Reference Manual for > relays has lots of detail on their various relay types, including pictures > and maintenance procedures: > > http://ed-thelen.org/1401Project/IBM-003-22-5857-1-Relays.pdf > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ > I had not seen that document before; thanks for the reference. What beautiful illustration drawings - reminds me a lot of the early Amateur Scientist ones in Scientific American magazine. Later, Charlie Carothers -- My email address is csquared3 at tx dot rr dot com From lists at databasics.us Tue May 26 01:22:46 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 20:22:46 -1000 Subject: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing In-Reply-To: <4A1AE2AE.8000500@softjar.se> References: <4A1AE2AE.8000500@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4A1B8AB6.5060906@databasics.us> Johnny Billquist wrote: > Warren Wolfe wrote: > >> Considering that many thousands if not millions of folks are happily >> using Windows and Microsoft apps 24/7 without any real problems, I >> think the fact that you and your clients are having such a different >> experience probably says more about you than Microsoft. Maybe you >> should try to find out what the problem actually is with your >> particular installations and fix it, instead of just complaining >> about Microsoft and rebooting twice a day; I don't think I or any of >> my clients would put up >> with that for very long. > > This just begs for a short reply. (Sorry, I just can't resist...) > > Show me a *single* site that is running Windows 24/7 without rebooting > several times a month, *minimum*. This is a mis-attribution. I did not write the above. M H Stein, dm561 at torfree.net, was responding to me. Warren From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Tue May 26 03:33:47 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 09:33:47 +0100 Subject: receptacles (was IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <775C9D48-B44C-4704-81AC-B180B1C9E5FA@microspot.co.uk> Thanks for the info, "receptacles" got hundred of items, though few seem to be on plates UK style and none in boxes like a UK 'metal clad' socket, but I can cut suitable holes in a few project boxes so not really a problem. There was a splash proof socket in a box but I don't really want a flip up cover on a permanent installation. Thank again. On 26 May 2009, at 04:52, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Message: 9 > Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 14:59:21 -0400 > From: tiggerlasv at aim.com > Subject: IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <8CBAB820C803DA9-1424-14FD at WEBMAIL-MZ08.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > > On Mon May 25, Roger Holmes wrote: > >> I have searched though eBay for normal US wall sockets and to >> my surprise cannot find them. I've tried all sorts of search terms > but >> obviously have not hit the right combination, unless there is some > law >> which prohibits them being sold retail or something like that. > > > Not too many folks out here refer to them as sockets anymore; > that term is typically reserved for light bulbs, though there is some > variation, > based on age, and geographical location. > > Generally, people call them "outlets", but the NEMA terminology is > "receptacle". > > Do an e-bay search on: +receptacle 20A 20 Amp (include the + > sign) > > check-mark "include titles and descriptions" . . . and then sort by > price+shipping lowest first. > > That should help you find what you're looking for. . . > > > From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue May 26 04:57:30 2009 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 10:57:30 +0100 Subject: BA123's as furniture. . . In-Reply-To: References: <053C366AE0F14CFFB8BF08C8E72D3D49@EDIConsultingLtd.local> from"Rod Smallwood" at May 25, 9 10:34:46 am Message-ID: <6BAABFA3748A45B4A63D483EDE947626@EDIConsultingLtd.local> That sounds like the item. I'm surprised any survived. I don't remember the foot leaver but I do remember the desk height adjustment. Yes, now you mention it. You could have different enclosures. Or rather I remember somebody saying 'At last they have found a use for PRO350's - Propping up desks! Regards Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 25 May 2009 19:04 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: BA123's as furniture. . . > Ah but DEC did do real furniture.=20 > > My desk in DEC Park had a fitting on the leg to mount a=20 > > Rainbow. The colour monitor could be raised and lowered with two buttons > built into edge of the desktop.=20 > > One of those would be a real find. Are they that rare? I have one, currently in pieces for storage, but I have all the bits, of course. Mine came with a Pro350 in the CPU holder, but from what I rememebr the holder is s pieces of metal screwed togather and can be assmebled in one of 2 positions to take the smaller ('Bow and Decmate) or larger (Pro) CPU boxes Actually, mine might be slightly different, in that the raise/lower cotnrol is a foot-opereted thing (not strictly a pedal, you push it backwards, not downad) at the bottom of the desk. That opperates a capacitor-run motor in the base which turns a screw to move the monitor pillare up and down. The desktop (large enough for an LK201 and a few other htings) has a manually-operated ratchet mechanism to set the height. -tony From jrasite at eoni.com Tue May 26 06:57:50 2009 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 04:57:50 -0700 Subject: Editors (was: Re: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp?) In-Reply-To: <4A1ADF75.3040103@softjar.se> References: <4A1ADF75.3040103@softjar.se> Message-ID: <2EB03D2A-DA8C-44F1-B28F-A4D76F342717@eoni.com> On May 25, 2009, at 11:12 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > "Fran C. Smith" wrote: >> NOOO Actually .. The real holy war is >> VI vs EMACS :-) > > Pfft. Both are for clueless newbies. The only editor is TECO. > Anything else can be implemented in TECO, if I really need it. > > With a half :-) Do they make TECO for a Mac? I LOVED TECO on RT11-SJ and RSX-11+. Don't have much need for it now (no longer programming robots), but TECO rocks! Jim From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 26 07:05:45 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 08:05:45 -0400 Subject: Editors (was: Re: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp?) In-Reply-To: <2EB03D2A-DA8C-44F1-B28F-A4D76F342717@eoni.com> References: <4A1ADF75.3040103@softjar.se> <2EB03D2A-DA8C-44F1-B28F-A4D76F342717@eoni.com> Message-ID: On May 26, 2009, at 7:57 AM, Jim Arnott wrote: >>> NOOO Actually .. The real holy war is >>> VI vs EMACS :-) >> >> Pfft. Both are for clueless newbies. The only editor is TECO. >> Anything else can be implemented in TECO, if I really need it. >> >> With a half :-) > > Do they make TECO for a Mac? The C implementation of TECO should build on a Mac. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue May 26 07:18:14 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 14:18:14 +0200 Subject: Editors (was: Re: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp?) In-Reply-To: <2EB03D2A-DA8C-44F1-B28F-A4D76F342717@eoni.com> References: <4A1ADF75.3040103@softjar.se> <2EB03D2A-DA8C-44F1-B28F-A4D76F342717@eoni.com> Message-ID: <20090526121814.GA28162@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 04:57:50AM -0700, Jim Arnott wrote: > > Do they make TECO for a Mac? > > I LOVED TECO on RT11-SJ and RSX-11+. Don't have much need for it now (no > longer programming robots), but TECO rocks! > > Jim > A coworker still uses EDT, our boss jokingly said that we should give him a keyboard without the numpad, just to make him stop. Cheers, Pontus. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 26 07:24:47 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 08:24:47 -0400 Subject: Editors (was: Re: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp?) In-Reply-To: <20090526121814.GA28162@Update.UU.SE> References: <4A1ADF75.3040103@softjar.se> <2EB03D2A-DA8C-44F1-B28F-A4D76F342717@eoni.com> <20090526121814.GA28162@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On May 26, 2009, at 8:18 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> Do they make TECO for a Mac? >> >> I LOVED TECO on RT11-SJ and RSX-11+. Don't have much need for it >> now (no >> longer programming robots), but TECO rocks! >> > A coworker still uses EDT, our boss jokingly said that we should give > him a keyboard without the numpad, just to make him stop. Lots of people "still" use EDT. I'm not sure why one should feel compelled to stop. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 26 07:31:46 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 08:31:46 -0400 Subject: IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 25, 2009, at 2:48 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> grinder. I have searched though eBay for normal US wall sockets >> and to >> my surprise cannot find them. I've tried all sorts of search terms >> but >> obviously have not hit the right combination, unless there is some >> law >> which prohibits them being sold retail or something like that. >> Probably me being stupid. > > IIRC the brand name to look for is 'Hubble' That would be Hubbell, and I doubt they make "regular" 110V wall outlets. They make very large, very expensive power connectors that are used on industrial equipment and big computers. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue May 26 07:38:16 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 14:38:16 +0200 Subject: Editors (was: Re: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp?) In-Reply-To: References: <4A1ADF75.3040103@softjar.se> <2EB03D2A-DA8C-44F1-B28F-A4D76F342717@eoni.com> <20090526121814.GA28162@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20090526123816.GA1153@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 08:24:47AM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: >> A coworker still uses EDT, our boss jokingly said that we should give >> him a keyboard without the numpad, just to make him stop. > > Lots of people "still" use EDT. I'm not sure why one should feel > compelled to stop. heh, I figured that "still uses" was the wrong phrasing to use on this list :) One reason to stop is that it only runs on VMS (at least I think so, and I'm only counting modern systems here). The editor I use runs on VMS, *nix and windows, which is nice. Still I have learned a few other editors for systems that don't have my editor of choice installed. /P From db at db.net Tue May 26 08:01:07 2009 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 09:01:07 -0400 Subject: Editors (was: Re: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp?) In-Reply-To: <20090526123816.GA1153@Update.UU.SE> References: <4A1ADF75.3040103@softjar.se> <2EB03D2A-DA8C-44F1-B28F-A4D76F342717@eoni.com> <20090526121814.GA28162@Update.UU.SE> <20090526123816.GA1153@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20090526130107.GA4317@night.db.net> On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 02:38:16PM +0200, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 08:24:47AM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> A coworker still uses EDT, our boss jokingly said that we should give > >> him a keyboard without the numpad, just to make him stop. > > > > Lots of people "still" use EDT. I'm not sure why one should feel > > compelled to stop. > > heh, I figured that "still uses" was the wrong phrasing to use on this > list :) > > One reason to stop is that it only runs on VMS (at least I think so, and > I'm only counting modern systems here). The editor I use runs on VMS, > *nix and windows, which is nice. Still I have learned a few other > editors for systems that don't have my editor of choice installed. You could always use emacs and edt-emulation-on - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From spectre at floodgap.com Tue May 26 08:15:13 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 06:15:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Editors (was: Re: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp?) In-Reply-To: <20090526130107.GA4317@night.db.net> from Diane Bruce at "May 26, 9 09:01:07 am" Message-ID: <200905261315.n4QDFDc8023190@floodgap.com> > > One reason to stop is that it only runs on VMS (at least I think so, and > > I'm only counting modern systems here). The editor I use runs on VMS, > > *nix and windows, which is nice. Still I have learned a few other > > editors for systems that don't have my editor of choice installed. > > You could always use emacs and edt-emulation-on AIEEEE MAKE IT STOP THE HORROR -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Klein bottle for immediate occupancy; inquire within. ---------------------- ;-) From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 26 08:33:54 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 09:33:54 -0400 Subject: Editors (was: Re: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp?) In-Reply-To: <20090526123816.GA1153@Update.UU.SE> References: <4A1ADF75.3040103@softjar.se> <2EB03D2A-DA8C-44F1-B28F-A4D76F342717@eoni.com> <20090526121814.GA28162@Update.UU.SE> <20090526123816.GA1153@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <2D4F2828-F0CD-4965-B065-B40455CEDFDF@neurotica.com> On May 26, 2009, at 8:38 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >>> A coworker still uses EDT, our boss jokingly said that we should >>> give >>> him a keyboard without the numpad, just to make him stop. >> >> Lots of people "still" use EDT. I'm not sure why one should feel >> compelled to stop. > > heh, I figured that "still uses" was the wrong phrasing to use on this > list :) Well, being that it's a current product and all.. ;) > One reason to stop is that it only runs on VMS (at least I think > so, and > I'm only counting modern systems here). It does. I guess many people (no accusing you) assume that VMS is somehow obsolete or something. > The editor I use runs on VMS, > *nix and windows, which is nice. Still I have learned a few other > editors for systems that don't have my editor of choice installed. Cross-platform editor portability is wonderful. I'd be surprised if there weren't at least one decent EDT clone for the UNIX world. The EDT emulation modes in emacs are, well, not so impressive. What editor do you use? I think there's a very short list that run across all three platforms that you mentioned. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From schoedel at kw.igs.net Tue May 26 09:00:27 2009 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (schoedel at kw.igs.net) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 10:00:27 -0400 Subject: Editors (was: Re: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp?) In-Reply-To: <2EB03D2A-DA8C-44F1-B28F-A4D76F342717@eoni.com> References: <4A1ADF75.3040103@softjar.se> <2EB03D2A-DA8C-44F1-B28F-A4D76F342717@eoni.com> Message-ID: <20090526134734.M33349@kw.igs.net> > >> NOOO Actually .. The real holy war is > >> VI vs EMACS :-) > > > > Pfft. Both are for clueless newbies. The only editor is TECO. Of course vi is functionally similar to TECO, with the same "[count] command [argument ESC]" syntax; merely a few of the command names are different (It's those emacs guys that strayed far from the true path). Plus you get regular expressions. > > With a half :-) > > Do they make TECO for a Mac? $ port install teco ---> Fetching TECO ---> Verifying checksum(s) for TECO ---> Extracting TECO ---> Applying patches to TECO ---> Configuring TECO ---> Building TECO ---> Staging TECO into destroot ---> Installing TECO @1.0_0 -- Kevin Schoedel VA3TCS From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue May 26 09:27:51 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 16:27:51 +0200 Subject: Editors (was: Re: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp?) In-Reply-To: <2D4F2828-F0CD-4965-B065-B40455CEDFDF@neurotica.com> References: <4A1ADF75.3040103@softjar.se> <2EB03D2A-DA8C-44F1-B28F-A4D76F342717@eoni.com> <20090526121814.GA28162@Update.UU.SE> <20090526123816.GA1153@Update.UU.SE> <2D4F2828-F0CD-4965-B065-B40455CEDFDF@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20090526142751.GA9280@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 09:33:54AM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > > It does. I guess many people (no accusing you) assume that VMS is > somehow obsolete or something. > I use it at work at least weekly :) > What editor do you use? I think there's a very short list that run > across all three platforms that you mentioned. emacs, there I've said it, now you know my religion :D (emacs on VMS in interesting, but functional) /P From spectre at floodgap.com Tue May 26 10:15:02 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 08:15:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Editors (was: Re: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp?) In-Reply-To: <20090526134734.M33349@kw.igs.net> from "schoedel@kw.igs.net" at "May 26, 9 10:00:27 am" Message-ID: <200905261515.n4QFF23M015454@floodgap.com> > > Do they make TECO for a Mac? > > $ port install teco Cheater. I want to see it on OS 9 ;-) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- It's not illogical to believe in God. -------------------------------------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 26 10:57:03 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 08:57:03 -0700 Subject: Editors (was: Re: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp?) In-Reply-To: <20090526123816.GA1153@Update.UU.SE> References: <4A1ADF75.3040103@softjar.se> <2EB03D2A-DA8C-44F1-B28F-A4D76F342717@eoni.com> <20090526121814.GA28162@Update.UU.SE> <20090526123816.GA1153@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: At 2:38 PM +0200 5/26/09, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >One reason to stop is that it only runs on VMS (at least I think so, and >I'm only counting modern systems here). The editor I use runs on VMS, >*nix and windows, which is nice. Still I have learned a few other >editors for systems that don't have my editor of choice installed. In spite of what HP might want people to believe, VMS is not dead, and is a modern OS. I'm sure I'm not the only one on this list that uses and actively develops for VMS. Personally I use a whole mess of editors depending on what platform I'm on. Here are the primary ones. The main reason I use xemacs is for the context colouring, while joe will now do that, I find xemacs is better for writing software and having several files open. Context colouring is the same reason why I use nedit on OpenVMS. OpenVMS - EDT, nedit UNIX - joe, xemacs Mac OS X - SubEthaEdit, xemacs Windows - notepad, Visual Studio Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue May 26 11:10:38 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 12:10:38 -0400 Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: <4A19B70C.6067.218954AA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4A1924A7.2450.1F4DAC9C@cclist.sydex.com> <4A19B70C.6067.218954AA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > However, the connector *was* pre-war. ?See patent 2,335,041, Bruno, > 1942 "Right Angle Electric Connector". ?That is *definitely* ?a 239- > type connector shown in the drawings, but no patent references are > given. My evidence that the PL-259 was not prewar: The patent you gave was filed 12 AUG 42 (USPTO). The Navy issued the type number 28 AUG 42 (NAVSHIPS 900109 catalog). The PL-259 types do not show up in Amphenol catalogs until the 1943 edition (various Amphenol catalogs). The 1939 edition of the Signal Corps SIG-5 only goes up to PL-125 (actually, pre-SIG-5 "official stock catalog"). I think the Amphenol catalog may be confusing the PL-259 family with the 93 family. I would not trust it. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 26 11:22:32 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 09:22:32 -0700 Subject: IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4A1BB4D8.23401.295144C3@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 May 2009 at 8:31, Dave McGuire wrote: > That would be Hubbell, and I doubt they make "regular" 110V wall > outlets. They make very large, very expensive power connectors that > are used on industrial equipment and big computers. Hubbell is a conglomerate and Hubbell-Bryant handles the more mundane fixtures (yes, ordinary duplex receptacles). But the connectors on all of my twist-lock tools is indeed labeled "Hubbell", although I gather that the twist-lock stuff is now Hubbell-Kellems. "Leviton" is another brand to search for. It pays to buy quality in receptacles if they're going to see heavy use--much of the residential stuff is made of very brittle plastic and breaking out the area near the grounding prong is quite common on the cheap stuff. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 26 11:24:37 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 09:24:37 -0700 Subject: Jones plugs, or similar sorts of plugs In-Reply-To: References: , <4A19B70C.6067.218954AA@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4A1BB555.29234.295326A2@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 May 2009 at 12:10, William Donzelli wrote: > I think the Amphenol catalog may be confusing the PL-259 family with > the 93 family. I would not trust it. I wrote them asking for clarification on their claim. Let's hope they have a company archivist who knows his/her stuff. At any rate, I'll let the list know if I find out anything. --Chuck From hoelscher-kirchbrak at freenet.de Tue May 26 12:06:24 2009 From: hoelscher-kirchbrak at freenet.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6lscher?=) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 19:06:24 +0200 Subject: VMS V3.x (and earlier) DECnet License Keys Message-ID: WANTED FOR HISTORIC VMS NETWORKING: VMS V3.x (and earlier) DECnet License Keys: - DECnet-VAX V1.x DECnet License - DECnet-VAX V2.x DECnet License - DECnet-VAX V3.0 (VMS V3.0 - V3.3) DECnet License - DECnet-VAX V3.1 (VMS V3.4 - V3.7) DECnet Full Function License (aka NETRTG031) - DECnet-VAX V3.1 (VMS V3.4 - V3.7) DECnet End Node License (aka NETEND031) OR File "NETACP.EXE" from a networked VMS V1.x/V2.x/V3.x System. (Included in every Backup of a networked System) Please help!!! Regards, Ulli From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 26 13:58:36 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 11:58:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: receptacles (was IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived) In-Reply-To: <775C9D48-B44C-4704-81AC-B180B1C9E5FA@microspot.co.uk> References: <775C9D48-B44C-4704-81AC-B180B1C9E5FA@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <20090526115629.Y18924@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 26 May 2009, Roger Holmes wrote: > Thanks for the info, "receptacles" got hundred of items, though few > seem to be on plates UK style and none in boxes like a UK 'metal clad' > socket, but I can cut suitable holes in a few project boxes so not > really a problem. There was a splash proof socket in a box but I don't > really want a flip up cover on a permanent installation. If you are cutting your own faceplate(s), then the "new" style "Decora" receptacles will be easier to mount - they have a single rectangular hole, instead of two "double-D" holes. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 26 14:04:51 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 12:04:51 -0700 Subject: IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A1C3D53.1020901@brouhaha.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > That would be Hubbell, and I doubt they make "regular" 110V wall > outlets. They make very large, very expensive power connectors that > are used on industrial equipment and big computers. They make excellent "NEMA 5-15R receptacles, though I'm reluctant to call them "regular" since they're made much better than the common hardware store variety. They'll set you back about $8 (or more for hospital grade), vs. under $1 for the cheap-ass hardware store stuff. Eric From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 26 14:07:35 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 15:07:35 -0400 Subject: Editors (was: Re: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp?) In-Reply-To: <20090526142751.GA9280@Update.UU.SE> References: <4A1ADF75.3040103@softjar.se> <2EB03D2A-DA8C-44F1-B28F-A4D76F342717@eoni.com> <20090526121814.GA28162@Update.UU.SE> <20090526123816.GA1153@Update.UU.SE> <2D4F2828-F0CD-4965-B065-B40455CEDFDF@neurotica.com> <20090526142751.GA9280@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <7C0DC56D-5850-49A7-8253-BC8A454A4833@neurotica.com> On May 26, 2009, at 10:27 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> It does. I guess many people (no accusing you) assume that VMS is >> somehow obsolete or something. >> > I use it at work at least weekly :) Like I said, not accusing you. >> What editor do you use? I think there's a very short list that run >> across all three platforms that you mentioned. > > emacs, there I've said it, now you know my religion :D There you go. Emacs is my editor (for programming anyway) but not my religion. > (emacs on VMS in interesting, but functional) Agree 100%. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 26 13:16:54 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 19:16:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived In-Reply-To: <4A1AF9D2.4040208@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at May 25, 9 01:04:34 pm Message-ID: > > I wrote: > > Yes, replacing the power supply is probably your best options. > Tony Duell wrote: > >> That's something I'd not want to do, simply because it's not original. > A working machine with a non-original part is far more interesting to me > than a non-working machine Agreed, but a working original machine (or at least a machine that keeps to the original design) is surely even more interesting. How far do you allow this non-originality to go? If you're not careful you can get to the stage where you replace all the internals of a classic computer with a PC running a suitable emulator [1]. That is surely a lot less intereting than the original design. [1] I am told some museums do this, but don't indicate the fact. I have no problems with museusm using emulators if they don't want to run the classic machine, or they can't repair it, or... but they darn well should tell the vistiors that what they're seeing is not the real thing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 26 14:16:50 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 20:16:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone interested in an Amstrad PCW? In-Reply-To: <4A1B1263.8000301@jetnet.ab.ca> from "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" at May 25, 9 03:49:23 pm Message-ID: > So what did you have down under for PC's. Here Amstrad == old 286's with CGA and > HD and a time of > day clock that don't work! Here (UK, where Amstrad are based) there were many ranges of Amstrad computers. The ones I remember started with the CPC464, a home computer with a built-in cassette recorder (so no volume level troubles :-)) and which came with either a greenscreen or colour monitor [1]. Amstrad later sold an RF modulator you could use to connect the machine to a normal TV set and even a TV tuner unit to turn the monitor into a TV. This machine begat the CPC664 and CPC6128 which had built-in 3" disk drives but which otherwise were quite similar [1] IIRC the colour montor had RGB inputs each one of which could be pulled hihg. pulled low, or left floating giving a rather unuusal 27 hardware colours. The PCW series were sold as word processors, they came with a printer (dot matrix or daisywheel depeneding on the model) and word processing software. Byt they were also reasonable CP/M machines. The PC compatibles started with the PC1512 and PC1640 which were PC/XT clones (or at least close to that). One odd feature of these machiens is that the PSU is in the monitor (it's acutally one SMPSU for both the monitor and computer), so you can't easily use any other monitor with said machines. The power connector IIRC was a 14 pin DIN plug. The PPC series were large laptops (large enough to have a full keyboard including the number pad) but with a small LCD display and 1 or 2 3.5" drives. I think I mentioned that machine the other day here. Later PCs were much closer to being normal clones... One advantage of older Amstrad machines is that there were real service manuals avaiable (Amstrad service manual = schematics + parts list + not much else), and they were not expensive. Disadvantages include the fact that they were cheaply made [2] and use a lot of ASICs [3]. [2] One example of this is that one series of PC clones had a battery-backed real time clock. The battery was 4 AA cells in series (not a bad idea), whcih fitted into a holder on top of the machine. But there was no cover on this holder, the battery was covered when you put the monitor on top of the machine. [3] The logic board in a PCW machine contains a large ASIC, Z80, RAM, disk controller, etc, but _no ROM_. There's enough logic in the ASIC to provide a simple bootstrap program to load the first sector from the floppy drive. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 26 14:28:42 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 20:28:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: receptacles (was IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived) In-Reply-To: <775C9D48-B44C-4704-81AC-B180B1C9E5FA@microspot.co.uk> from "Roger Holmes" at May 26, 9 09:33:47 am Message-ID: > > Thanks for the info, "receptacles" got hundred of items, though few > seem to be on plates UK style and none in boxes like a UK 'metal clad' IIRC, the convential way that US socket outlets d ofit into a metal back box (a bit like the flush boxes we use in the UK), and then a serparate plastic faceplate is screwd on the the front. It's not quite like the UK mounting. Anyway, when I mounded up a US socket for a test cable, I did what you're suggesting and fitted it in a normal plastic project box. Cable mounting ('free') US sockets certainly exist and may be more useful to you for this application. I have no idea what they're gernally called, though. > socket, but I can cut suitable holes in a few project boxes so not > really a problem. There was a splash proof socket in a box but I don't > really want a flip up cover on a permanent installation. > > Thank again. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 26 14:36:01 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 20:36:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived In-Reply-To: <8CBAB820C803DA9-1424-14FD@WEBMAIL-MZ08.sysops.aol.com> from "tiggerlasv@aim.com" at May 25, 9 02:59:21 pm Message-ID: > Not too many folks out here refer to them as sockets anymore; > that term is typically reserved for light bulbs, though there is some > variation, > based on age, and geographical location. This is one of those cases where the UK and US usage is very different. In the UK, the thing a bulb goes into is a 'lampholder' (maybe a 'bulbholder', although that's normally for smaller bulbs). A 'Socket' is a female conneotor, a thing a plug goes into. Note that the correct useage is the socket is the frmale part, the plug is the male part, no matter wether it's mounted on a panel/chassis or fitted to the end of a cable. The term 'Jack' does not mean a socket (as it seems to in the States), it is a particualr type of connector, basically the ones yoy call 'phone plugs'. Think of the connector on the end of stereo headphones. Over here that's called a 'jack plug'. And of course what it plugs into is a 'jack socket' The term 'recepticle' might be used for a socket (but it wouldn't be common). More often it means the female part of a 'faston' connector (to cause more confusion, often called a 'Lucar spade' over here), the male part being called a 'blade' -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 26 14:39:31 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 20:39:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at May 26, 9 08:31:46 am Message-ID: > > On May 25, 2009, at 2:48 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> grinder. I have searched though eBay for normal US wall sockets > >> and to > >> my surprise cannot find them. I've tried all sorts of search terms > >> but > >> obviously have not hit the right combination, unless there is some > >> law > >> which prohibits them being sold retail or something like that. > >> Probably me being stupid. > > > > IIRC the brand name to look for is 'Hubble' > > That would be Hubbell, and I doubt they make "regular" 110V wall Correct... > outlets. They make very large, very expensive power connectors that > are used on industrial equipment and big computers. I am sure I've wired Hubbell branded 230V 15A plugs (like the 110V one, but with the flat pins horizontal), along with line sockets for them. And I've certainly seen 110V versions that look to have come from the same company (white (nylon?) pin/socket assembles yhat fit into black plastic bodies and are held on by coase-pitch captive self-tapping screws, so I assumed those were Hubbell too. They may not make wall-mounting socket outlets, but I would be _very_ suprised if they didn't make something that would take the normal 110V US plug. -tony From lproven at gmail.com Tue May 26 15:45:14 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 21:45:14 +0100 Subject: Anyone interested in an Amstrad PCW? In-Reply-To: References: <4A1B1263.8000301@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <575131af0905261345r2613ac93mef2b0575ff3ef74@mail.gmail.com> 2009/5/26 Tony Duell : >> So what did you have down under for PC's. Here Amstrad == old 286's with CGA and >> HD and a time of >> day clock that don't work! > > Here (UK, where Amstrad are based) there were many ranges of Amstrad > computers. The ones I remember started with the CPC464, a home computer > with a built-in cassette recorder (so no volume level troubles :-)) and > which came with either a greenscreen or colour monitor [1]. Amstrad later > sold an RF modulator you could use to connect the machine to a normal TV > set and even a TV tuner unit to turn the monitor into a TV. > > This machine begat the CPC664 and CPC6128 which had built-in 3" disk > drives but which otherwise were quite similar > > [1] IIRC the colour montor had RGB inputs each one of which could be > pulled hihg. pulled low, or left floating giving a rather unuusal 27 > hardware colours. > > The PCW series were sold as word processors, they came with a printer > (dot matrix or daisywheel depeneding on the model) and word processing > software. Byt they were also reasonable CP/M machines. > > The PC compatibles started with the PC1512 and PC1640 which were PC/XT > clones (or at least close to that). One odd feature of these machiens is > that the PSU is in the monitor (it's acutally one SMPSU for both the > monitor and computer), so you can't easily use any other monitor with > said machines. The power connector IIRC was a 14 pin DIN plug. > > The PPC series were large laptops (large enough to have a full keyboard > including the number pad) but with a small LCD display and 1 or 2 3.5" > drives. I think I mentioned that machine the other day here. > > Later PCs were much closer to being normal clones... > > One advantage of older Amstrad machines is that there were real service > manuals avaiable (Amstrad service manual = schematics + parts list + not > much else), and they were not expensive. Disadvantages include the fact > that they were cheaply made [2] and use a lot of ASICs [3]. > > [2] One example of this is that one series of PC clones had a > battery-backed real time clock. The battery was 4 AA cells in series (not > a bad idea), whcih fitted into a holder on top of the machine. But there > was no cover on this holder, the battery was covered when you put the > monitor on top of the machine. > > [3] The logic board in a PCW machine contains a large ASIC, Z80, RAM, > disk controller, etc, but _no ROM_. There's enough logic in the ASIC to > provide a simple bootstrap program to load the first sector from the > floppy drive. All sounds bang-on to me. Good little summary. The Amstrad 2000-series machines (8086, 386, 386) were quite good PCs for the time, and for the late 1980s, quite futuristic. Side-mounted keyboard port, like their ancestors the 1512 & 1640, all I/O integrated on the motherboard, and a non-removable case cover with just a hatch to cover the expansion slots. They had no 5.25" drive bays, which seemed prescient, if bold, then - but this was before CD-ROMs had been invented. The 386 model was a relatively quick 308DX/20MHz, IIRC, with even some secondary cache, and came with 4MB RAM, a very large amount for the time. I recall thinking it was an ideal Power User's machine for Windows 3.0 but it was just a little too early for that. The 2000s were too radical, though, and bombed on the market. Stripped-back units were sold off as near barebones boxes under the name of the 1000 series: 1086, 1286 & 1386. As such they were very cheap but the spec was now poor. Then came the 3000s, which were vanilla beige boxes, just like anyone else's, complete with 5.25" bays. My employers sold quite a few of them, though, sometimes with big Apricot MCA servers. The 1512 and 1640 were quite weird for XT clones, though. All I/O onboard & proprietary graphics chips. The 1512 was CGA but did 640x200 in 16 colours via a proprietary mode that the bundled GEM desktop could use but not much else. They came with DR's DOS+ as an option, too. The 1640 was only very slightly more vanilla - its EGA-compatible chip boasted a proprietary high-res mode too. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 26 15:50:30 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 13:50:30 -0700 Subject: receptacles (was IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived) In-Reply-To: <20090526115629.Y18924@shell.lmi.net> References: , <775C9D48-B44C-4704-81AC-B180B1C9E5FA@microspot.co.uk>, <20090526115629.Y18924@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4A1BF3A6.6490.2A468D6C@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 May 2009 at 11:58, Fred Cisin wrote: > If you are cutting your own faceplate(s), then the "new" style > "Decora" receptacles will be easier to mount - they have a single > rectangular hole, instead of two "double-D" holes. If the current draw isn't excessive, I might be tempted to purchase an inexpensive US "power strip" with (usually) 6 positions, circuit breaker (usually 15A), switch and heavy cord. Decapitate the cord and attach whatever sort of connector tickles your fancy. --Chuck From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue May 26 16:03:01 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 22:03:01 +0100 Subject: Anyone interested in an Amstrad PCW? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1243371781.3618.2.camel@elric> On Tue, 2009-05-26 at 20:16 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > [2] One example of this is that one series of PC clones had a > battery-backed real time clock. The battery was 4 AA cells in series (not > a bad idea), whcih fitted into a holder on top of the machine. But there > was no cover on this holder, the battery was covered when you put the > monitor on top of the machine. They didn't keep time properly if you used alkalines here - also, they would usually moan about the batteries being flat. This is because the batteries were in fact providing too *high* a voltage! Putting mostly-flat alkalines in worked okay. Gordon From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 26 17:04:44 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 15:04:44 -0700 Subject: receptacles (was IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived) In-Reply-To: <4A1BF3A6.6490.2A468D6C@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <775C9D48-B44C-4704-81AC-B180B1C9E5FA@microspot.co.uk>, <20090526115629.Y18924@shell.lmi.net> <4A1BF3A6.6490.2A468D6C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A1C677C.6040607@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > If the current draw isn't excessive, I might be tempted to purchase > an inexpensive US "power strip" with (usually) 6 positions, circuit > breaker (usually 15A), switch and heavy cord. Decapitate the cord > and attach whatever sort of connector tickles your fancy. > When I traveled to London in 2003, I needed to power four different electrical devices I was bringing from home, often simultaneously. The devices all had autoranging or wide-range mains inputs and would run fine on 220-240V 50Hz, but all had NEMA plugs. I knew there would be few mains receptacles in my room, and I didn't want to buy a UK outlet strip and four plug adapters, so I brought a US outlet strip and a single plug adapter with me. For anyone that does that, there are two things to be aware of: 1) Check every device you plug into the outlet strip to be certain that it is rated for 240V. 2) Make sure the outlet strip does NOT contain any surge protection. I found out later that a friend did something similar on his trip to Germany, but he took a surge-protected outlet strip. As soon as he plugged it into the mains, it blew the fuse for the power to an entire floor of the hotel. From ats at offog.org Tue May 26 17:26:00 2009 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 23:26:00 +0100 Subject: Anyone interested in an Amstrad PCW? In-Reply-To: (Tony Duell's message of "Tue\, 26 May 2009 20\:16\:50 +0100 \(BST\)") References: Message-ID: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > Later PCs were much closer to being normal clones... ... with the possible exception of the splendidly bizarre Amstrad Mega PC, which was a 386 PC that included a Sega MegaDrive games console on an ISA card. It's also worth noting that Amstrad ended up buying and continuing Sinclair's family of computers, hence the CPC646-esque Spectrum +2 and the 6128-esque +3. The Amstrad machines I've encountered seem to be an odd mix of solid, well-thought-out design and incredibly cheap and nasty manufacturing, but I've always had a soft spot for the PCWs... -- Adam Sampson From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 26 17:34:33 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 15:34:33 -0700 Subject: receptacles (was IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived) In-Reply-To: <4A1C677C.6040607@brouhaha.com> References: , <4A1BF3A6.6490.2A468D6C@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A1C677C.6040607@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4A1C0C09.7406.2AA5D295@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 May 2009 at 15:04, Eric Smith wrote: > 1) Check every device you plug into the outlet strip to be certain > that it is rated for 240V. A little OT, but I'm curious. I'm using an IEC strip in one of my racks--it's the kind with an internal relay hooked to an external switch. But it's rated for 240v and I'm using it on a 120v line. It seems to work okay, but I've been wondering if I'm courting disaster. Anyone have an opinion? --Chuck From innfoclassics at gmail.com Tue May 26 18:20:41 2009 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 18:20:41 -0500 Subject: Computer (Trading) Cards In-Reply-To: <928496.3819.qm@web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <928496.3819.qm@web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I was initially thinking of a set of say 90 cards, with one or two cards per computer, but then got to thinking that with so many computer enthusiasts on here perhaps a set per computer would be feasible? I guess it depends how much info you have per computer. > I realise the market for such things wouldn't be hugely profitable, but it would be great for someone like myself that only knows alot of computers by name. > > Does anyone have any comments / suggestions? It's purely an idea at this point, so no orders please! I have been wondering how hard it would be to write an applicaton to create ones own trading cards on the web. I would think one card per computer. I would be interested but am more interested in creating cards than buying them. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From jrasite at eoni.com Tue May 26 19:14:52 2009 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 17:14:52 -0700 Subject: Editors (was: Re: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp?) In-Reply-To: <20090526134734.M33349@kw.igs.net> References: <4A1ADF75.3040103@softjar.se> <2EB03D2A-DA8C-44F1-B28F-A4D76F342717@eoni.com> <20090526134734.M33349@kw.igs.net> Message-ID: <914FC613-C484-40DB-AAC2-63151C91B8FD@eoni.com> On May 26, 2009, at 7:00 AM, schoedel at kw.igs.net wrote: >>>> NOOO Actually .. The real holy war is >>>> VI vs EMACS :-) >>> >>> Pfft. Both are for clueless newbies. The only editor is TECO. > > Of course vi is functionally similar to TECO, with the same "[count] > command > [argument ESC]" syntax; merely a few of the command names are > different (It's > those emacs guys that strayed far from the true path). Plus you get > regular > expressions. > >>> With a half :-) >> >> Do they make TECO for a Mac? > > $ port install teco > ---> Fetching TECO OMG, they really do have TECO for Mac! "TECO for Mac OS X. Well, I must admit that nobody has asked for this, but here it is anyway. It's in a gzipped tar archive. A very teletype oriented ASCII text editor for a very GUI-based system, one for which most users never use a command line, might seem a bit strange. In any case, I feel that anyone who can extract the executable and put in in the path is qualified to use it. This archive contains all documentation as well as sources which you can recompile, from the command line, using Apple Xcode." Loading it now! Jim From doug at stillhq.com Tue May 26 19:14:04 2009 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 10:14:04 +1000 Subject: Anyone interested in an Amstrad PCW? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A1C85CC.2090509@stillhq.com> > [1] IIRC the colour montor had RGB inputs each one of which could be > pulled hihg. pulled low, or left floating giving a rather unuusal 27 > hardware colours. > On the subject of the Color Monitor that was used with the CPC464, I am looking for a replacement EHT transformer. The monitor is the color one with the 5v cable to supply power to the CPC464. The unit had a failed LOP Transistor (Which I have replaced), but the 160V rail is still being dragged down, and I have no EHT on the anode cap - I have removed all the secondary loads from the EHT, so I am confident that the fault is within the transformer itself. At this stage, I am suspicious of one of the HV diodes within the transformer, but everything is epoxied. Doug From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 26 21:20:58 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 19:20:58 -0700 Subject: receptacles (was IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived) In-Reply-To: <4A1C0C09.7406.2AA5D295@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4A1BF3A6.6490.2A468D6C@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A1C677C.6040607@brouhaha.com> <4A1C0C09.7406.2AA5D295@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A1CA38A.5000905@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > A little OT, but I'm curious. I'm using an IEC strip in one of my > racks--it's the kind with an internal relay hooked to an external > switch. But it's rated for 240v and I'm using it on a 120v line. It > seems to work okay, but I've been wondering if I'm courting disaster. > I don't see any reason to be especially concerned. IEC 320 receptacles and plugs are specifically intended for both 120V and 240V applications. Obviously you have to be sure that the equipment you plug into it is rated for the voltage you're using, but you've already done that. Eric From tosteve at yahoo.com Tue May 26 23:32:12 2009 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 21:32:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BYTE magazines for sale (1978-1991) Message-ID: <388993.78108.qm@web110612.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Raymond has (quantity 158) BYTEs (1978-1991) for sale - contact him if interested ------------------------------------------------------------------ Ray Schreiber ray0603 at yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------ These are not my BYTEs, contact Raymond if interested! Steven Stengel From ingrammp at earthlink.net Wed May 27 00:10:41 2009 From: ingrammp at earthlink.net (mike ingram) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 22:10:41 -0700 Subject: Altos 686 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2B2AE65A-62B1-4413-8163-9C010976ABC5@earthlink.net> Hi Sergio I had given Dave Dunfield copies of a C compiler and some other stuff that I won on an Ebay auction a couple of years ago. Dave used to have a site at http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/ img/index.htm that had copies of this, but it doesn't seem to be working.. ( anybody know where this is now ???? ) Anyways, I had these disks: Xenix Development System version 3.0BS0, which includes 7 floppies, SCCS 3.0B0 disk 1 of 1 Spelling Checker 3.0BS0 disk 1 of 1 Level II COBOL R2.02S0 RTS Rev 56 disk 1 of 1 INFORMIX demo version 3.11B two disks ( not ALTOS, but with INFORMIX label on it ) F77 Fortran version 1.2B0 disk 1 of 1 C Compiler 3.0BS1 two disks Be glad to email you what I have .... I think I just put it all into a tar ball and gzipped it, after using Dave's ImageDisk program to copy the original floppies into something more moveable. Mike On May 22, 2009, at 4:51 AM, SPC wrote: > Hello. I have one Altos 686 with Xenix 3.2 in working state. I > should like > to install on it one C compiler and eventually the Ryan-McFarland > Cobol for > this platform if available. > > I remember something about IMD image disks available in some place > in the > Internet but I don't remember where. > > All help is welcome > > Kind Regards > Sergio From tosteve at yahoo.com Wed May 27 00:34:50 2009 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 22:34:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "AES Plus" for sale in Toronto Message-ID: <490266.63601.qm@web110604.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> ----- Not mine, see below for information ----- Huge "AES Plus" for sale, similar to this: http://www.vintagecomputers.btinternet.co.uk/aes/index.htm Make offer! greenthumbtoe at yahoo.com Toronto, Canada ----- Not mine, see above for information ----- From gklinger at gmail.com Wed May 27 01:08:16 2009 From: gklinger at gmail.com (Golan Klinger) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 02:08:16 -0400 Subject: "AES Plus" for sale in Toronto In-Reply-To: <490266.63601.qm@web110604.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <490266.63601.qm@web110604.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I wonder if this is the same AES Plus that was offered up for free on this list on 9/7/08? I contacted the owner about the AES at the time and discovered that it was less free than we had been led to believe. -- Golan Klinger Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From bqt at softjar.se Tue May 26 12:37:11 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 19:37:11 +0200 Subject: Editors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A1C28C7.1010407@softjar.se> schoedel at kw.igs.net wrote: >>>> > >> NOOO Actually .. The real holy war is >>>> > >> VI vs EMACS :-) >>> > > >>> > > Pfft. Both are for clueless newbies. The only editor is TECO. > > Of course vi is functionally similar to TECO, with the same "[count] command > [argument ESC]" syntax; merely a few of the command names are different (It's > those emacs guys that strayed far from the true path). Plus you get regular > expressions. So, how do you write programs in vi??? Besides. Who needs regular expressions? In TECO, you can do more... Need I say that I don't consider vi similar to TECO at all? Atleast proper Emacs (not GNU-Emacs) still have TECO in the bottom. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Tue May 26 12:40:38 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 19:40:38 +0200 Subject: Editors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A1C2996.6050604@softjar.se> Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >>> >> A coworker still uses EDT, our boss jokingly said that we should give >>> >> him a keyboard without the numpad, just to make him stop. >> > >> > Lots of people "still" use EDT. I'm not sure why one should feel >> > compelled to stop. > > heh, I figured that "still uses" was the wrong phrasing to use on this > list :) Probably. > One reason to stop is that it only runs on VMS (at least I think so, and > I'm only counting modern systems here). The editor I use runs on VMS, > *nix and windows, which is nice. Still I have learned a few other > editors for systems that don't have my editor of choice installed. Of course not. EDT runs just fine on both TOPS-20, RSX, RSTS/E and probably something else that I'm forgetting... What's your definition of "modern"? I think Unix is older than all of the above mentioned systems. :) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Tue May 26 12:48:33 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 19:48:33 +0200 Subject: Editors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A1C2B71.2020406@softjar.se> schoedel at kw.igs.net wrote: >>> > > Pfft. Both are for clueless newbies. The only editor is TECO. > > Of course vi is functionally similar to TECO, with the same "[count] command > [argument ESC]" syntax; merely a few of the command names are different (It's > those emacs guys that strayed far from the true path). Plus you get regular > expressions. Just realized I had to make another comment on this. In TECO, the number before a command is not generally a count, but an argument. Some commands use that as a count, while others use it for all kind of stuff. It all depends on what makes most sense for the specific command. If you really want a repeat, you'd better create a loop instead. And in general, you don't have any arguments after a command, with a few exceptions. So normally you just stack letters together, and they are all separate commands. (The commands that take an argument after the command that I can think of are I (for insert, which inserts everything after the I, unless you give a numeric argument, in which case it inserts the corresponding byte) and O (for branching in a program, which takes a label string). Oh, and all commands related to q-registers take the q-registername after the command. (Hmm, there are probably one or two more, but I can't remember them right now.) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From ed at ed-thelen.org Tue May 26 15:28:12 2009 From: ed at ed-thelen.org (Ed Thelen) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 13:28:12 -0700 Subject: IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived References: Message-ID: > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 12:18:39 +0100 > From: Roger Holmes > Subject: IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived Congratulations on your purchase of your new IBM 026 keypunch ;-)) Our IBM 1401 restoration operation has 4 IBM 026 keypunches restored to full operation Several notes: a) None of ours have a ferroresonant regulator. They are all as wired in http://www.ed-thelen.org/1401Project/026-KeypunchSchematic.pdf general area http://www.ed-thelen.org/1401Project/1401RestorationPage.html#Unit-Record-Equipment b) One or more of the electrolytic capacitors may need re-forming A symptom of the need is the immediate blowing of fuses when powering up. My favorite method is to place a 4 watt 115 volt tungsten bulb in series with the charging circuit to the capacitor. This reduces current and local heating in the capacitor to acceptable values while the electro-chemistry is taking place. http://ed-thelen.org/1401Project/Sched2005Jan.html see Wednesday January 19th c) Fortunately, 25L6 tubes are available on e-bay ;-)) d) Two of the keypunches had an open hold coil in one of the relays. We couldn't find: - a replacement - a volunteer to rewind to solenoid so did a work-around including a 7 watt lamp as a current limiter. http://ed-thelen.org/1401Project/Sched2006December.html#13 e) Strong suggestion: Unless you absolutely have to, don't mess with the print section. Getting it lined up again will drive you nutz. One of ours had run out of lubrication and the print wires would not move correctly - Bob Erickson, who fixes analog watches for fun, had a long "interesting" battle !! f) We "re-ink" our own ribbons - by re-oiling them, as there still seems to be enough "black" in 'em. g) We have two people who have done most of the restoration on the four keypunches - Bob Erickson http://ed-thelen.org/1401Project/TeamBios.html#Erickson Joe Preston http://ed-thelen.org/1401Project/TeamBios.html#Preston They fixed 'em when they were working for IBM, Oh so many years ago :-)) Please regard us a resourse of knowledge if you need help. ... > > Looking through the parts list there is something I'd like the list's > opinion on. The diagram shows a transformer but the list says > "REGULATOR ASM, FERRORESONANT-60CPS 120VA" and a similar option for > 50Hz which of course I don't have. What are these for? Might they work > at the wrong frequency? Will they be damaged or just not work? This is > part of a 48v DC supply. Should I build a simple 48V supply myself or > even see what I can find in my verifier spares? The ferroresonant question has been correctly answered in another e-mail, Our IBM 1401s are "full of 'em" ;-)) I did some experiments on one, they are surprisingly "stiff", ie good. Ours are rated at 133 volts nominal output Into a light load, the output stayed within 5% with inputs ranging from 85 volts to 220 volts :-)) According to "Solar" documentation - the output voltage will vary 1% for each 1% deviation of input frequency. Good Fortune Ed Thelen From spedraja at ono.com Wed May 27 02:01:50 2009 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 09:01:50 +0200 Subject: Altos 686 In-Reply-To: <2B2AE65A-62B1-4413-8163-9C010976ABC5@earthlink.net> References: <2B2AE65A-62B1-4413-8163-9C010976ABC5@earthlink.net> Message-ID: A lot of thanks, sincerely :-) The Altos is in good shape and working state and I consider a waste don't hack it a little. And, more important, I did a test and probe that I can manage it using the serial port of my laptop and one original Dec VT220 (that I use eventually to connect in old-fashion mode to SIMH by the same way, but this is other story). Only one point to clear... you speak about send IMD images in a tarball, isn't so ? Or perhaps... Do you speak about the single files of the disks (one by one) ? In this last case, I wonder if would be possible to send files to the Altos Xenix using 'cu' or something similar... Only assorted thoughts, you know... :-) Thanks again. Kind Regards. Sergio 2009/5/27 mike ingram > Hi Sergio > > I had given Dave Dunfield copies of a C compiler and some other stuff that > I won on an Ebay auction a couple of years ago. > > Dave used to have a site at http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/img/index.htm > that had copies of this, but it doesn't seem to be working.. ( anybody > know where this is now ???? ) > > Anyways, I had these disks: > > Xenix Development System version 3.0BS0, which includes 7 floppies, > SCCS 3.0B0 disk 1 of 1 > Spelling Checker 3.0BS0 disk 1 of 1 > Level II COBOL R2.02S0 RTS Rev 56 disk 1 of 1 > INFORMIX demo version 3.11B two disks ( not ALTOS, but with INFORMIX > label on it ) > F77 Fortran version 1.2B0 disk 1 of 1 > C Compiler 3.0BS1 two disks > > Be glad to email you what I have .... I think I just put it all into a tar > ball and gzipped it, after using Dave's ImageDisk program to copy the > original floppies into something more moveable. > > Mike > > > > > > On May 22, 2009, at 4:51 AM, SPC wrote: > > Hello. I have one Altos 686 with Xenix 3.2 in working state. I should like >> to install on it one C compiler and eventually the Ryan-McFarland Cobol >> for >> this platform if available. >> >> I remember something about IMD image disks available in some place in the >> Internet but I don't remember where. >> >> All help is welcome >> >> Kind Regards >> Sergio >> > > From spedraja at ono.com Wed May 27 02:14:22 2009 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 09:14:22 +0200 Subject: Eliza and Fun Message-ID: Yesterday I installed some CP/M stuff available for the AltairZ80 simulator of SIMH. I am checking the use of the last version of the simulator from one DEC VT220 plugged in the serial port of my laptop. And I checking in essence the PDP-11 (with Unix) and Z80 (with CP/M, MP/M and Oasis) simulators In one of the virtual disks of CP/M exists a copy of the Eliza basic program. I tried it using the MBASIC interpreter. Very funny but interesting as an historical piece of software and as what the program do by itself. But the most funny thing was to check what happened when I show the program to my daughter and son (both under eleven years old). Half and hour later I need to obligate them to close the program. Absolutely addictive. And even more when I expleained them (in simply words) some aspects related with the program. Later, I encountered myself thinking about the evolution of the games, the programs, the artificial intelligence and the computing in general during from the epoch of Eliza (or before) ot our days. And what can do a good piece of code against some excess of our days in the computing field. Kind Regards Sergio From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed May 27 02:30:15 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 04:30:15 -0300 Subject: Anyone interested in an Amstrad PCW? References: Message-ID: <1d1101c9de9d$aa52bab0$7d1a19bb@desktaba> > ... with the possible exception of the splendidly bizarre Amstrad Mega > PC, which was a 386 PC that included a Sega MegaDrive games console on > an ISA card. Mega PC or TERAdrive? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed May 27 03:58:16 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 01:58:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: K3 operating system Message-ID: Flipping through the manual for an Ithaca Audio IA-1100 video board, I found this sentence, "Compatible with CP/M or Ithaca Audio's K3 Operating System.". What was this K3? Google tells me absolutely nothing helpful. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From classiccmp at discordance.org.uk Wed May 27 04:18:23 2009 From: classiccmp at discordance.org.uk (Adrian Burgess) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 10:18:23 +0100 Subject: Anyone interested in an Amstrad PCW? In-Reply-To: <575131af0905261345r2613ac93mef2b0575ff3ef74@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A1B1263.8000301@jetnet.ab.ca> <575131af0905261345r2613ac93mef2b0575ff3ef74@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090527091821.GA27068@discordance.org.uk> On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 09:45:14PM +0100, Liam Proven wrote: > > The 2000s were too radical, though, and bombed on the market. Not helped by the extremely dodgy hd controller in the 2386 models (I vaguely recall one of these appearing at the hospital I worked at at the time, soon to be pushed into a corner as its unreliability became apparent). There's info here : http://www.ipit-update.com/ictcon10.htm -- From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed May 27 04:22:00 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 11:22:00 +0200 Subject: Editors In-Reply-To: <4A1C2996.6050604@softjar.se> References: <4A1C2996.6050604@softjar.se> Message-ID: <20090527092159.GA23389@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 07:40:38PM +0200, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > Of course not. EDT runs just fine on both TOPS-20, RSX, RSTS/E and > probably something else that I'm forgetting... What's your definition of > "modern"? I think Unix is older than all of the above mentioned systems. > :) Hmm, I think my definition in this case is "being actively developed". So VMS is modern, since you hack RSX at times I guess that might be called modern in a way ;) I give up, perhaps I should do a "help EDT" now. I will want to get my vaxen onto HECnet any day now, EDT might be a usefull skill. /P From dave09 at dunfield.com Wed May 27 06:19:16 2009 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 06:19:16 -0500 Subject: Altos 686 In-Reply-To: <2B2AE65A-62B1-4413-8163-9C010976ABC5@earthlink.net> References: Message-ID: > I had given Dave Dunfield copies of a C compiler and some other > stuff that I won on an Ebay auction a couple of years ago. > > Dave used to have a site at http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/ > img/index.htm that had copies of this, but it doesn't seem to be > working.. ( anybody know where this is now ???? ) My site - and the disk image archive are alive and well at: www.classiccmp.org/dunfield Regards, Dave -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From spedraja at ono.com Wed May 27 05:59:06 2009 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 12:59:06 +0200 Subject: DSM-11 (Mumps for PDP-11) Message-ID: This is a request that appears from time to time in this and other lists. Someone knows if DSM-11 (or DSM-15) know too as MUMPS is available ? I think that Fred Van Kenpem put it available in one of its sites in some moment during the past years but I lost the track of it. Kind Regards Sergio From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed May 27 06:45:36 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 13:45:36 +0200 Subject: DSM-11 (Mumps for PDP-11) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <31D647AF2345472883CFA9F3ADD5041B@xp1800> Sergio, You should ask Kees Stravers who's a friend of Fred. http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/vax/hapert/index.html ;-) You can reach Kees at pb0aia_at_iaehv.nl -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens SPC > Verzonden: woensdag 27 mei 2009 12:59 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: DSM-11 (Mumps for PDP-11) > > This is a request that appears from time to time in this and > other lists. > Someone knows if DSM-11 (or DSM-15) know too as MUMPS is > available ? I think that Fred Van Kenpem put it available in > one of its sites in some moment during the past years but I > lost the track of it. > > Kind Regards > Sergio > From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed May 27 07:19:55 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 14:19:55 +0200 Subject: DSM-11 (Mumps for PDP-11) In-Reply-To: <31D647AF2345472883CFA9F3ADD5041B@xp1800> References: <31D647AF2345472883CFA9F3ADD5041B@xp1800> Message-ID: <0776F0D64951419BA8FC569E2D977AFF@xp1800> You can reach Fred through his own website http://www.dutch-star.nl/ -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Rik Bos > Verzonden: woensdag 27 mei 2009 13:46 > Aan: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Onderwerp: RE: DSM-11 (Mumps for PDP-11) > > Sergio, > > You should ask Kees Stravers who's a friend of Fred. > http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/vax/hapert/index.html ;-) > You can reach Kees at pb0aia_at_iaehv.nl > > -Rik > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens SPC > > Verzonden: woensdag 27 mei 2009 12:59 > > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Onderwerp: DSM-11 (Mumps for PDP-11) > > > > This is a request that appears from time to time in this and other > > lists. > > Someone knows if DSM-11 (or DSM-15) know too as MUMPS is > available ? I > > think that Fred Van Kenpem put it available in one of its sites in > > some moment during the past years but I lost the track of it. > > > > Kind Regards > > Sergio > > > > From brad at heeltoe.com Wed May 27 07:29:46 2009 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 08:29:46 -0400 Subject: Anyone else searching for sources for dec maindec diagnostics? Message-ID: <9108.1243427386@mini> Hi, Lately I've been writing down names I find in DEC maindec listings (mostly pdp-11) and then using google and linkedin to try and track down person. I suppose in some circles that makes me a stalker :-) When if I find them I ask them my famous question (which I ask everyone), "have any 9-tracks in your closet?" Has anyone else taken on this task or found anything? I suppose I should ask on comp.sys.dec also. It looks like the diagnostic group did most of this work on a pdp-10, both for the pdp-8 and the pdp-11. I'm hoping someone might have saved a tape somewhere. It's happened before. -brad From lists at databasics.us Wed May 27 09:11:36 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 04:11:36 -1000 Subject: IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A1D4A18.1090702@databasics.us> Tony Duell wrote: I have no problems with museusm using emulators if they don't want to run the classic machine, or they can't repair it, or... but they darn well should tell the vistiors that what they're seeing is not the real thing. I'll agree with you on this one, Tony. I'm kind of a hardware interest / software interest mix. For me, USING a computer means more about the software. Given that, I'm fine with the idea of emulators, and even wrote a CP/M emulator myself -- only to throw it away when I saw the much better effort put into SimH. (Damn you all! -- no, srsly, thanks for that gem!) But there *IS* a certain appeal to knowing that electrons are running around in paths that have been there for decades -- at least for me. I end up doing any CP/M development work I do on simulators, but I like to RUN the programs in situ, on my IMSAI, or Kaypro, or Osborne machines. Somehow, it seems... more authentic. Dunno, is that the right word? Proper, somehow... as it should be. And, to link to the ongoing religious discussion of editors, I'm personally fond of vi and joe on *nix systems, and the WordStar editing commands in most programs in the CP/M and DOS worlds. I'm fastest in that environment. Warren From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed May 27 10:55:15 2009 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 11:55:15 -0400 Subject: Editors In-Reply-To: <2EB03D2A-DA8C-44F1-B28F-A4D76F342717@eoni.com> References: <4A1ADF75.3040103@softjar.se> <2EB03D2A-DA8C-44F1-B28F-A4D76F342717@eoni.com> Message-ID: <4A1D6263.7060802@compsys.to> >Jim Arnott wrote: > > >On May 25, 2009, at 11:12 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> >"Fran C. Smith" wrote: >> >>> NOOO Actually .. The real holy war is >>> VI vs EMACS :-) >> >> >> Pfft. Both are for clueless newbies. The only editor is TECO. >> Anything else can be implemented in TECO, if I really need it. >> >> With a half :-) > > > Do they make TECO for a Mac? > > I LOVED TECO on RT11-SJ and RSX-11+. Don't have much need for it now > (no longer programming robots), but TECO rocks! I found that TECO is most useful when repeated changes or commands are required. Otherwise, under RT-11, KED (full screen editor) is easier when the changes are one of a kind. On occasion, TECO's abilities are also useful in a DOS (box) environment. A version of TECO is available to use place of EDIT under Windows. I recently needed to change a text file which displayed 8 number per line (with 8 digits per number) to 5 number per line. There were over 20,000 numbers in the final file with 4,000 lines. TECO was able to take 5 lines at a time and convert each group to 8 lines with 5 numbers per line as opposed to writing a once off program to do the same thing. Rather than copying the file into RT-11, using TECO there, then copying the file back to Windows, I used the Windows version of TECO. I would never have bothered to learn TECO for use with Windows, but since I already have that ability, I figured why not ...... Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed May 27 10:57:49 2009 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 11:57:49 -0400 Subject: Eliza and Fun In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A1D62FD.30709@compsys.to> >SPC wrote: >Yesterday I installed some CP/M stuff available for the AltairZ80 simulator >of SIMH. I am checking the use of the last version of the simulator from one >DEC VT220 plugged in the serial port of my laptop. And I checking in essence >the PDP-11 (with Unix) and Z80 (with CP/M, MP/M and Oasis) simulators > >In one of the virtual disks of CP/M exists a copy of the Eliza basic >program. I tried it using the MBASIC interpreter. Very funny but interesting >as an historical piece of software and as what the program do by itself. > >But the most funny thing was to check what happened when I show the program >to my daughter and son (both under eleven years old). Half and hour later I >need to obligate them to close the program. Absolutely addictive. And even >more when I expleained them (in simply words) some aspects related with the >program. > >Later, I encountered myself thinking about the evolution of the games, the >programs, the artificial intelligence and the computing in general during >from the epoch of Eliza (or before) ot our days. And what can do a good >piece of code against some excess of our days in the computing field. > > Super Star Trek (SST) is still one of the better games even though it is not a real time game. It easily runs well under RT-11 using SIMH or Ersatz-11. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed May 27 11:06:33 2009 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 12:06:33 -0400 Subject: Help with Power Supply Input Current? Message-ID: <4A1D6509.6030009@compsys.to> I have seen the specs for input current for various power supplies. Obviously, the higher the maximum output current, the higher the rated input current. I would like to buy a power supply that is about double the usual capacity that I will need, but I am wondering how this choice might affect the UPS up time when the street power fails? If the load for two power supplies is the same, will the input current be similar if the maximum output rating of one power supply is double the other power supply, assuming that the load is within the rating of the smaller power supply? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From kahrs at caip.rutgers.edu Wed May 27 12:10:49 2009 From: kahrs at caip.rutgers.edu (Mark KAHRS) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 13:10:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IEZ-11 driver source? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The IEZ-11 is a VMS driver for the SCSI 488/D box made by Iotech. I have several of these and was wondering if anyone had the source for this driver so I could use it with *ix instead. Also, there is a 488/S box that is apparently compatible with Suns. But that ain't classique. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed May 27 12:08:51 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 18:08:51 +0100 Subject: Help with Power Supply Input Current? In-Reply-To: <4A1D6509.6030009@compsys.to> References: <4A1D6509.6030009@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4A1D73A3.5060202@dunnington.plus.com> On 27/05/2009 17:06, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > If the load for two power supplies is the same, will the input current > be similar if the maximum output rating of one power supply is > double the other power supply, assuming that the load is within > the rating of the smaller power supply? Assuming they have about the same percentage efficiency, yes, the current draw will be the same for the same load. And therefore the UPS autonomy (uptime) will be the same. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From tiggerlasv at aim.com Wed May 27 13:02:35 2009 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 14:02:35 -0400 Subject: receptacles (was IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived) Message-ID: <8CBAD0C730994D0-9D0-867@webmail-da03.sysops.aol.com> As Tony suggested earlier, maybe a cord-mount receptacle might be the easiest route to go. Here is a (random) e-bay 20-Amp cord-mounted receptacle, which takes varying sizes of "SO" (rubberized) cord. . . http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170201407022 Someone had pointed out earlier that, if you're going to use a box-mounted receptacle, that cutting out for a decora style outlet would be the easiest, but I tend to disagree. If you're only going to be plugging in ONE device, then use an outlet like this. . . (Also a random e-bay item) http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260376549688 It's much easier to cut out a single round hole. ;-) From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 27 13:18:13 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 11:18:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090527111552.A71542@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 26 May 2009, Ed Thelen wrote: > Congratulations on your purchase of your new IBM 026 keypunch ;-)) 026 .NE. 029 I don't think that I ever saw an 026 with the extra-read interpreter feature From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed May 27 13:28:41 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 14:28:41 -0400 Subject: 486 case LED display jumpers Message-ID: Anybody happen to have the jumper diagram to set a LED 2 digit case speed setting? The PCB has ST-8A on it if that helps. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed May 27 14:02:20 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 20:02:20 +0100 Subject: 486 case LED display jumpers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A1D8E3C.70800@philpem.me.uk> Teo Zenios wrote: > Anybody happen to have the jumper diagram to set a LED 2 digit case speed setting? The PCB has ST-8A on it if that helps. There's a reverse-engineered partial circuit on VOGONS: http://vogons.zetafleet.com/viewtopic.php?t=10780&sid=f80bc89c785100a9d5bfa236f7e45b31 If you could put a photo of the PCB on one of those photo-sharing sites (say, Photobucket?) and post the URL, I might have the paperwork kicking around in one of my folders. "TH99" (Total Hardware, 1999 edition) might also be worth a look, copies of that are kicking around on Google. Usually the jumpers are laid out in a tesselated "T" pattern, a bit like this: 1 2 3 4 Valid jumper positions are 1-2, 2-3, 2-4 or no jumper. If memory serves, 1-2 is "on with TURBO on", 2-3 is "on with TURBO off", 2-4 is "on all the time", no jumper is, well, segment not lit. Which segment is tied to which jumper cluster depends on the specific display in use. Of course, you get boards designed by folks who thought they were being clever, which end up with a layout like: 1 a 3 b 4 c 1 d 3 (or something like that, I've probably got it at least a little wrong) Letters = segments; 1,3,4 = supplies. You could probably reverse-engineer one with a multimeter in about 25 minutes. Remove all the jumpers, Set TURBO off, find all the lines that are high, repeat with TURBO on. From that you'll be able to figure out which pins are always-high, and which depend on the state of the TURBO input. Anything that stays low is a segment. If dealing with a common-anode display, reverse "high" and "low". -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed May 27 14:14:06 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 12:14:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 486 case LED display jumpers Message-ID: <2674.18999.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 5/27/09, Philip Pemberton wrote: > You could probably reverse-engineer one with a multimeter > in about 25 minutes. Remove all the jumpers, Set TURBO off, > find all the lines that are high, repeat with TURBO on. From > that you'll be able to figure out which pins are > always-high, and which depend on the state of the TURBO > input. Anything that stays low is a segment. If dealing with > a common-anode display, reverse "high" and "low". Man, I remember setting these up... but it's been a while. When they were new, of course, the cases came with little diagrams and instructions... You should be able to figure it out with trial and error, it's really unlikely something could blow up. Just fiddle with jumpers until you get it to say either the speed of the computer, or "HI". Every one I've ever seen was set up like Philip described, where each of the seven segments could be on normally, on with turbo, or on all the time. Once you figure a couple of segments out the rest should be simple. -Ian From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 27 14:35:39 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 12:35:39 -0700 Subject: Help with Power Supply Input Current? In-Reply-To: <4A1D6509.6030009@compsys.to> References: <4A1D6509.6030009@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4A1D960B.8040406@brouhaha.com> Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I would like to buy a power supply that is about double the usual > capacity that I will need, but I am wondering how this choice > might affect the UPS up time when the street power fails? A switching power supply does become less efficient at low load. A switcher that is 80% efficient at rated load might only be 60% efficient at half load. However, there's no general way to determine the efficiencies for a particular supply except to check the specs (which often don't have that information), or to measure it. Eric From emu at e-bbes.com Wed May 27 14:48:19 2009 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 13:48:19 -0600 Subject: Eliza and Fun In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A1D9903.60204@e-bbes.com> SPC wrote: > Yesterday I installed some CP/M stuff available for the AltairZ80 simulator > of SIMH. I am checking the use of the last version of the simulator from one > DEC VT220 plugged in the serial port of my laptop. And I checking in essence > the PDP-11 (with Unix) and Z80 (with CP/M, MP/M and Oasis) simulators How do you redirect the SIMH console in CP/M from the "telnet port 23" to serial output of your laptop ? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 27 14:17:32 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 20:17:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone interested in an Amstrad PCW? In-Reply-To: from "Adam Sampson" at May 26, 9 11:26:00 pm Message-ID: > > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > > Later PCs were much closer to being normal clones... > > ... with the possible exception of the splendidly bizarre Amstrad Mega > PC, which was a 386 PC that included a Sega MegaDrive games console on > an ISA card. I;'d forgotten that one, and don't have any docs on it... Checking my docs has found a service manuals for a series of machines I'd forogten/ There were 464 Plus and 6128 Plus machines, which were related to the 'non Plus' versions, but had better graphics (4096 hardware colours) and totally different styling (look a bit like C128s). They work with the MM12 and CM14 monitors (mono and colour respectively). Related to that (in that it's in the same service manual) is the GX4000 which seems to be a cartridge-based games console. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 27 14:23:57 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 20:23:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: receptacles (was IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived) In-Reply-To: <4A1C677C.6040607@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at May 26, 9 03:04:44 pm Message-ID: > When I traveled to London in 2003, I needed to power four different > electrical devices I was bringing from home, often simultaneously. The > devices all had autoranging or wide-range mains inputs and would run > fine on 220-240V 50Hz, but all had NEMA plugs. I knew there would be > few mains receptacles in my room, and I didn't want to buy a UK outlet > strip and four plug adapters, so I brought a US outlet strip and a > single plug adapter with me. > > For anyone that does that, there are two things to be aware of: > > 1) Check every device you plug into the outlet strip to be certain that > it is rated for 240V. > > 2) Make sure the outlet strip does NOT contain any surge protection. Indeed. Most 'surge protection' is simply a VDR rated at a little more htan mains votlage connected across the mains. Connecting a 110V one (probably a 130V VDR) to 240V mains is going to blow fuses at least. > > I found out later that a friend did something similar on his trip to > Germany, but he took a surge-protected outlet strip. As soon as he > plugged it into the mains, it blew the fuse for the power to an entire > floor of the hotel. Thati s much less likely to happen in the UK. UK mains plugs contain a cartridge fuse which is designed to blow before the fuse in the main fuse box. My experience is that even catastrophic failures (almost dead shorts across the mains) will blow the plug fuse first. 110V AC supplies are not uncommon in the UK. The reason is that industrial portable power tools (electric drills, etc) are 110V, and are run from an isolating transformer with the centre-tap of the (110V) secondary grounds. The point being that if there's an insulation failure, the maximum voltage that can appear between some bit of metal and ground is 55V and a shock from that is unlikely to be fatal. The transformers are normally in bright yellow plastic boxes (yellow being the colour associated with 110V on connectors, etc), and are rated at about 3kVA (there are much larger ones, that's the smallest you'll easily find). They're not cheap, but an awful lot of hacker-types will have one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 27 14:03:16 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 20:03:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone interested in an Amstrad PCW? In-Reply-To: <575131af0905261345r2613ac93mef2b0575ff3ef74@mail.gmail.com> from "Liam Proven" at May 26, 9 09:45:14 pm Message-ID: > The Amstrad 2000-series machines (8086, 386, 386) were quite good PCs > for the time, and for the late 1980s, quite futuristic. Side-mounted > keyboard port, like their ancestors the 1512 & 1640, all I/O And that keyboard port, at least on some machines, was non-standard. These machines had a bulit-in mouse port (DE9 connector) for a quatrature mouse. The keyboard port was a 6 pin DIN socket. The reason was that while the mouse 'position' signals went to one of the gate arrays on the motherboard, the mouse buttons were linked to 2 of the pins on the keyboard socket (the other 4 being the normal +5V, ground, clock, data). The mouse buttons were heandled by the keyboard microcontroller and appeared to the machine as keypresses. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 27 14:26:15 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 20:26:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: receptacles (was IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived) In-Reply-To: <4A1C0C09.7406.2AA5D295@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 26, 9 03:34:33 pm Message-ID: > > On 26 May 2009 at 15:04, Eric Smith wrote: > > > 1) Check every device you plug into the outlet strip to be certain > > that it is rated for 240V. > > A little OT, but I'm curious. I'm using an IEC strip in one of my > racks--it's the kind with an internal relay hooked to an external > switch. But it's rated for 240v and I'm using it on a 120v line. It > seems to work okay, but I've been wondering if I'm courting disaster. I can't see why it'll do any damage, but I am suprised it works. Surely that relay is only going to get half the coil voltage it expexts. If there are any surge protection components, they'll be things like 275V VDRs. They'll not clip off small spikes (say 150V ones), but they'll not be damaged, and won't do any damage to anything else. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 27 14:35:34 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 20:35:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone interested in an Amstrad PCW? In-Reply-To: <4A1C85CC.2090509@stillhq.com> from "Doug Jackson" at May 27, 9 10:14:04 am Message-ID: > > > > [1] IIRC the colour montor had RGB inputs each one of which could be > > pulled hihg. pulled low, or left floating giving a rather unuusal 27 > > hardware colours. > > > > On the subject of the Color Monitor that was used with the CPC464, I am > looking for a replacement EHT transformer. > > The monitor is the color one with the 5v cable to supply power to the > CPC464. I have looked in my pile of Amstrad service manuals. I can't find one for the CPC454, but I have found the CPC6128 one + update. And the one for the 464+/6128+ Anyway, I have serive data on the CTM644 colour monitor, which is probably much the same as yours. It has +5V and +12V outputs to power the computer. The Line oputput transformer is given the number 3714004 (Amstrad part number 170467). I doubt you'll still get one from Amstrad, but there might be an equivalent from some 3rd party manufacturer, particularly if it was also used in a TV. Be warned, though. Some years ago I needed a line output transformer for an Amstrad VGA monitor. I was sold an 'equivalent' from one of the well-known manufactuers. Fortunately I checked the connections before fitting it -- if I'd fitted it the 100V (or so) HT (B+) rail would have been connected to the CRT heater. I did get the exact Amstrad part in the end (from CPC IIRC), but it wasn't cheap (probably cost me more than a replacement monitor, but you know my views on repairing things). > > The unit had a failed LOP Transistor (Which I have replaced), but the > 160V rail is still being dragged down, and I have no EHT on the anode > cap - I have removed all the secondary loads from the EHT, so I am Have you checked the horizontal yoke, yoke coupling capacitor (C429), tuning capacitors (C431, C432), etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 27 14:09:00 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 20:09:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: receptacles (was IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived) In-Reply-To: <4A1BF3A6.6490.2A468D6C@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 26, 9 01:50:30 pm Message-ID: > > On 26 May 2009 at 11:58, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > If you are cutting your own faceplate(s), then the "new" style > > "Decora" receptacles will be easier to mount - they have a single > > rectangular hole, instead of two "double-D" holes. > > If the current draw isn't excessive, I might be tempted to purchase > an inexpensive US "power strip" with (usually) 6 positions, circuit I am not sure I'd trust anything cheap with mains voltages/high currents. In my case it's my collection that's at stake (I couldn't care what happens to me, there are plenty of good hacekrs, but not plenty of good mahcines). But a good-quality 'power strip' would probably be fine. Or as I suggested earlier, get a 15A 'extension cord' (I believe that's what you call them, over here the word 'cord' is never used for electrical cables), cut off the plug end, and wire the cable (with the socket on it) to the BS4343 plug to fit the power tool transformer. As I suspected, RS (Not Radio Shack, but the company that was knwon as 'Radiospares' years ago -- http://www.rswww.com/ ) do sell US 110V sockets, made by Hubbell. But they are _very_ expensive -- the panel-mouting socket is nearly \pounds 20.00, the cable-mounting one is over \pounds 25.00. If the OP can get them cheaper on E-bay or from the States, then I'd go that route, but if not, it is a source, they will be good quality, and I bet he spent a lot more on the 029 :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 27 14:10:53 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 20:10:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone interested in an Amstrad PCW? In-Reply-To: <1243371781.3618.2.camel@elric> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at May 26, 9 10:03:01 pm Message-ID: [Amstrad PC real-time clock battery] > > They didn't keep time properly if you used alkalines here - also, they > would usually moan about the batteries being flat. This is because the > batteries were in fact providing too *high* a voltage! Putting > mostly-flat alkalines in worked okay. Right... Isn't the other trick to wire a diode or two in series with the battery pack? I wonder if 3 cells + a 'dummy' (as you use to fill up spaces in some battery chargers) would work -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 27 14:48:08 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 20:48:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help with Power Supply Input Current? In-Reply-To: <4A1D6509.6030009@compsys.to> from "Jerome H. Fine" at May 27, 9 12:06:33 pm Message-ID: > > I have seen the specs for input current for various power supplies. > Obviously, the higher the maximum output current, the higher the > rated input current. > > I would like to buy a power supply that is about double the usual > capacity that I will need, but I am wondering how this choice > might affect the UPS up time when the street power fails? > > If the load for two power supplies is the same, will the input current > be similar if the maximum output rating of one power supply is > double the other power supply, assuming that the load is within > the rating of the smaller power supply? This depends on the efficiency of the power supplies, which is basically defined as the ration of output power to input power. This efficiency obviously depends on the design of the power supply (linears are a lot worse than switchets) and to some extend on the maximum power rating of the PSU. But for the supplies you're thinking of, it's likely to be pretty much the same. In whcih case for a given output power (that is, for the same load connected to the PSU), the input power is going to be much the same no matter which PSU you use. And thus the amount of time your UPS will run it for is going to be much the same -tony From rogpugh at mac.com Wed May 27 14:57:49 2009 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 20:57:49 +0100 Subject: Anyone interested in an Amstrad PCW? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 27 May 2009, at 20:17, Tony Duell wrote: > > Checking my docs has found a service manuals for a series of machines > I'd > forogten/ There were 464 Plus and 6128 Plus machines, which were > related > to the 'non Plus' versions, but had better graphics (4096 hardware > colours) and totally different styling (look a bit like C128s). They > work > with the MM12 and CM14 monitors (mono and colour respectively). > > Related to that (in that it's in the same service manual) is the GX4000 > which seems to be a cartridge-based games console. > > -tony > Not forgetting the Amstrad PENPAD.. an Apple Newton knockoff at a tenth the price. Roger From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Wed May 27 15:03:17 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 21:03:17 +0100 Subject: BM 029 Keypunch has arrived In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3E17DB1E-D240-440D-B105-5D954E675AC3@microspot.co.uk> > Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 13:28:12 -0700 > From: "Ed Thelen" > > Congratulations on your purchase of your new IBM 026 keypunch ;-)) Thanks, though it isn't an 026 its an 029, the one with the squared off case. I happen to have a jelly mould one, though it is an 836 with all the extra bells and whistles like a programming patch panel in the left side pedestal. Trouble is it does not work and it has about 3 times the number of relays as a standard 026 and I can't get circuit diagrams for it. I found someone who could supply them for 100 dollars but he wanted a cheque from a US clearing bank which of course I can't do, and things went quiet when I asked about alternatives. > > Our IBM 1401 restoration operation has 4 IBM 026 keypunches restored > to full operation Aha! I am half of the ICT 1301 restoration project. About the same age, the 1301 was announced 1959 and first shipped in 1962. The project was started by BTM, the British Tabulating Machine company which had just stupidly given up the rights to all IBM's patents throughout the British Empire, which by then was shrinking fast. I saw a picture of three of your guys standing around an online card punch and I planned to send you a picture of the two of us standing around our almost identical online card punch, though I'm sure the electronics underneath are different. The relays and the two banks of bakerlite cams are probably the same. Our has a ancient design of board with a Z80? valve on it which powers down the motor if the machine has not been used for a while. What oil do you use in your Geneva gear box? > > > Several notes: > a) None of ours have a ferroresonant regulator. > They are all as wired in > http://www.ed-thelen.org/1401Project/026-KeypunchSchematic.pdf > general area > http://www.ed-thelen.org/1401Project/1401RestorationPage.html#Unit-Record-Equipment I know it is slightly too modern for my 1301 but my new acquisition is an 029 model C and there was an IBM Field Engineering manual in it. It is not the more modern one with reed relays, it still has the IBM wire relays used in the 026/836. Looking at the manual again it just says model 29, but I always though they were called 029. Maybe I've got it wrong, or maybe they were only called 029 in the UK. > > > b) One or more of the electrolytic capacitors may need re-forming > A symptom of the need is the immediate blowing of fuses when > powering up. > My favorite method is to place a 4 watt 115 volt tungsten bulb in > series > with the charging circuit to the capacitor. This reduces current > and > local heating in the capacitor to acceptable values while the > electro-chemistry is taking place. > http://ed-thelen.org/1401Project/Sched2005Jan.html > see Wednesday January 19th A four watt 115v bulb! Sourcing one of those locally might be tricky. The machine was powered up in the states before shipment so I might be lucky with this. > > > c) Fortunately, 25L6 tubes are available on e-bay ;-)) Er, no valves in either the 29/029 or the 836. There were some in the verifier. > > > d) Two of the keypunches had an open hold coil in one of the relays. > We couldn't find: > - a replacement > - a volunteer to rewind to solenoid > so did a work-around including a 7 watt lamp as a current limiter. > http://ed-thelen.org/1401Project/Sched2006December.html#13 OK, I might have a spare from the verifier. > > > > e) Strong suggestion: Unless you absolutely have to, > don't mess with the print section. > Getting it lined up again will drive you nutz. > One of ours had run out of lubrication and > the print wires would not move correctly - > Bob Erickson, who fixes analog watches for fun, had a long > "interesting" battle !! Absolutely. Back in 1979 I made that mistake on the 836, I tried to clean the print head with a rag pulled side to side - I bent all the print wires and it never printed again, part of my reasons to buy the 29/029. Not that I've given up totally on the 836 but it is WAY down the priority list. Highest priority is to get the check read brushes on the online punch working 100% so I can use it to (slowly) read the precious old cards I have without wrecking them so badly they can't be manually read and re-punched on a keypunch. > > > f) We "re-ink" our own ribbons - by re-oiling them, as there still > seems to be enough "black" in 'em. Very interesting. > > > g) We have two people who have done most of the restoration on the > four keypunches - > Bob Erickson > http://ed-thelen.org/1401Project/TeamBios.html#Erickson > Joe Preston > http://ed-thelen.org/1401Project/TeamBios.html#Preston > They fixed 'em when they were working for IBM, > Oh so many years ago :-)) > Please regard us a resourse of knowledge if you need help. Thank you very very much. > > > ... > >> >> Looking through the parts list there is something I'd like the list's >> opinion on. The diagram shows a transformer but the list says >> "REGULATOR ASM, FERRORESONANT-60CPS 120VA" and a similar option for >> 50Hz which of course I don't have. What are these for? Might they >> work >> at the wrong frequency? Will they be damaged or just not work? This >> is >> part of a 48v DC supply. Should I build a simple 48V supply myself or >> even see what I can find in my verifier spares? > > The ferroresonant question has been correctly answered in another e- > mail, > Our IBM 1401s are "full of 'em" ;-)) > I did some experiments on one, > they are surprisingly "stiff", ie good. > Ours are rated at 133 volts nominal output > Into a light load, the output stayed within 5% > with inputs ranging from 85 volts to 220 volts :-)) Impressive! Not a transistor in sight either. > According to "Solar" documentation - > the output voltage will vary 1% for each 1% deviation of > input frequency. Hmm, so 10 Hz off of 60 means 10/60 so 16.667% x 48v = 8v so output will be 40v instead of 48. For relay logic that doesn't sound too bad to me but then I've never designed relay logic (except for model railways when I was a boy). > > > Good Fortune > Ed Thelen Thanks and good luck with the 1401 restoration. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 27 15:03:48 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 21:03:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Doorbell switch with an intrersting brand name... Message-ID: Today I was in one of the fairly local 'pound shops' (for those across the Pond, they're much the same as your 'dollar stores' -- they're shops that sell everything for \pounds 1.00 per item). Anyway, one of the items they were selling was a fairly nice brass doorbell pushbutton switch. No, I have not decided to post somethign totally off-topic to this list. The reason I mention it is that the brand name on said switch is 'Heath/Zenith', and the way they're written is very similar (I'd say identical) to the old Heath/Zenith brand used on classic computers On the pack (amongst other things) are the statements 'Should you require it, Heath Senith offer a range of otther accessories and bell wire' (in that one , the 'Heath Zenith' is in a normal font. And 'DESA UK LTD www.desaeurope.com ... A division of Desa International Inc. The world's largest doorchime company' So is that what happened to the Heath and Zenith brand names :-( -tony From evan at snarc.net Wed May 27 15:09:33 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 16:09:33 -0400 Subject: VCF East 6.0 Message-ID: <4A1D9DFD.4080701@snarc.net> Hi all, Go here:http://www.vintage.org/2009/east/exhibit.php to register for VCF East 6.0 exhibits. It's okay if you only have a general idea of your exhibit right now. You can always fill in some more details later. However for the VCF's advertising / marketing purposes, it is MUCH better to sign up sooner rather than later! People who sign up sooner will also have dibs on the best booth locations. The event is Sept. 12-13 at the InfoAge Science Center in Wall, New Jersey. We're still in the process of arranging lecturers and special events. Please contact me off-list (evan at snarc.net) with any questions, notes about mistakes in the web site, etc. - Evan (& Sellam) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 27 15:26:04 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 16:26:04 -0400 Subject: Eliza and Fun In-Reply-To: <4A1D9903.60204@e-bbes.com> References: <4A1D9903.60204@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 3:48 PM, e.stiebler wrote: > SPC wrote: >> >> Yesterday I installed some CP/M stuff available for the AltairZ80 >> simulator >> of SIMH. I am checking the use of the last version of the simulator from >> one >> DEC VT220 plugged in the serial port of my laptop. And I checking in >> essence >> the PDP-11 (with Unix) and Z80 (with CP/M, MP/M and Oasis) simulators > > How do you redirect the SIMH console in CP/M from the "telnet port 23" > to serial output of your laptop ? What I've done (as recently as last July) is to edit the inittab to fire off a getty on /dev/ttyS0, then log in over a dumb terminal, then run the Altair simulator from that login session. No TCP/IP port redirection required. If you aren't running something UNIX-compatible on your laptop, I have no idea how you'd do that. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 27 15:32:26 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 13:32:26 -0700 Subject: 486 case LED display jumpers In-Reply-To: <4A1D8E3C.70800@philpem.me.uk> References: , <4A1D8E3C.70800@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4A1D40EA.11491.2F5C7D14@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 May 2009 at 20:02, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Teo Zenios wrote: > > Anybody happen to have the jumper diagram to set a LED 2 digit case > > speed setting? The PCB has ST-8A on it if that helps. > > There's a reverse-engineered partial circuit on VOGONS: > http://vogons.zetafleet.com/viewtopic.php?t=10780&sid=f80bc89c785100a9 > d5bfa236f7e45b31 I *may* have the little chart that came with one of these, but to be honest, I've never used the chart. My approach is very simple. * Remove all of the jumpers. * With the switch in the "normal" position, move a single jumper around and note which segment is illuminated. * Repeat with the switch in "turbo" mode. * Create your own legends. Like other posters, my legends usually say "Lo" and "HI". But you can get creative with yours... --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed May 27 15:39:07 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 16:39:07 -0400 Subject: IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > c) Fortunately, 25L6 tubes are available on e-bay ? ?;-)) 25L6GTs went from being a junk tube to one of moderate value in the space of just a few years. As the audio guys get desperate for the "next great undiscovered tube", high voltage filament output tubes of the late 1930s and 40s, like the 25L6GT, are finding their way in amps. They are still pretty reasonable to buy, but you could have said that about 6SN7GTs ten years ago, too. So, if you have an 026, stock up on 25L6GTs, before they dry up. -- Will From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 27 15:44:14 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 14:44:14 -0600 Subject: IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived In-Reply-To: <20090527111552.A71542@shell.lmi.net> References: <20090527111552.A71542@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4A1DA61E.9030801@jetnet.ab.ca> C Congratulations on your purchase of your new IBM 026 keypunch ;-)) 026 .NE. 029 C C I don't think that I ever saw an 026 with the extra-read interpreter C feature C From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed May 27 15:44:17 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 16:44:17 -0400 Subject: BM 029 Keypunch has arrived In-Reply-To: <3E17DB1E-D240-440D-B105-5D954E675AC3@microspot.co.uk> References: <3E17DB1E-D240-440D-B105-5D954E675AC3@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: >I found > someone who could supply them for 100 dollars but he wanted a cheque from a > US clearing bank which of course I can't do, and things went quiet when I > asked about alternatives. If you get desperate for relays, and need to buy these "golden" ones, I am sure someone on this list in the USA can act as an agent for you. Contact me offlist if you get to this point. Same with getting US electrical supplies. Sorry, I have no spare relays. I need every one I can get my hands on. I probably have about 800 sockets in my collection, and they are not all filled. -- Will From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 27 15:46:59 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 14:46:59 -0600 Subject: 486 case LED display jumpers In-Reply-To: <2674.18999.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <2674.18999.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A1DA6C3.4090606@jetnet.ab.ca> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Man, I remember setting these up... but it's been a while. When they were new, of course, the cases came with little diagrams and instructions... > > You should be able to figure it out with trial and error, it's really unlikely something could blow up. Just fiddle with jumpers until you get it to say either the speed of the computer, or "HI". Every one I've ever seen was set up like Philip described, where each of the seven segments could be on normally, on with turbo, or on all the time. Once you figure a couple of segments out the rest should be simple. I was thinking about the 'smoke' you can get for HO steam locomotives ... I little drop on the HI speed led resitor ... :) > -Ian > From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 27 16:19:38 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 15:19:38 -0600 Subject: gsaauctions: interesting looking calculator (Winchester, KY) Message-ID: Dunno what kind of calculator that is, but it looks 'vintage'. Lot 41QSCI09471004 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From thypope at gmail.com Wed May 27 16:24:12 2009 From: thypope at gmail.com (Alexandru Lovin) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 00:24:12 +0300 Subject: Making vintage computers Message-ID: Hello everyone, I figured this list is big enough to ask and get your opinions. My big question is, would you buy remanufactured vintage computers ? I have all sorts of details regarding the line of systems I'd manufacture (most of them from the x86 world). I spent time on the internet looking at what is the best video card for ISA, for PCI, for AGP 2x, for AGP 4x or 8x (you know, for the different voltages), what would be the best processor for what system, who would buy it aside from some vintage enthusiasts, etc. There is a follow up question, of course. If you agree with remanufacturing the Harris 286 at 25 MHz in a system with 16 CPUs and 16 MB of RAM per CPU, all connected in a cluster acting as a multi-CPU computer, would you be able to find some kind of investor who's willing to finance this ? I'm not a spammer, just asking. I don't know the "other" architectures so well (except the famous 68000 CPUs that powered Amigas and maybe PowerPC powering Macs until recently) so I would only make computers with old x86 and pre-x86 processors. Ok, I forgot one: the Zilog Z80. 32 of those in an 8-bit system with the S-100 bus. The "new" Altair 8800, if you will. Maybe a new Commodore PET 2001 as well (still with a gazillion CPUs and other such stuff). The other computers would be (warning, boring list ahead): one with 16 386 CPUs, a lot of RAM (as far as I know, the 386 DX actually CAN address 4 GB of RAM) one with 16 of the best Socket 3 486 CPUs...which are the Pentium Overdrive 83 MHz :) one with 16 of the best Socket 8 CPUs (Pentium II Overdrive 333 MHz, 66 MHz FSB, etc.) one with 8 Super Socket 7 K6-III+ CPUs at 600 MHz or more (depends on the overclocking abilities) one with 8 FC-PGA2 Pentium III-S at 1400 MHz and 4 GB RDRAM one with 6 Pentium IV for Socket 478, at 3400 MHz one with 6 Pentium IV for LGA775, at 3730 MHz I'm not over deciding on dual cores and quad cores and tri cores yet. Have to wait and see if Intel comes up with an even better Core 2 Duo Extreme Edition, or AMD with a better Athlon 64 X2 Black Edition. The dual cores would have a maximum of 4 CPUs, tri-cores and quad cores would get two. The computers would be completely "integrated." Onboard everything, except the optical drive, hard drive, ram modules, power supply and mouse. Some modules would be optional, like the Bluetooth, Wi-Fi or infrared module. All of them would get optional 3dfx hardware (up to the K6-III+, the computers would only get Voodoo II accelerators, after that it's Voodoo 5 6000 and then Rampage). The idea is to buy the rights to remanufacture all the needed chips (and ask for modifications before that, in most cases) from the original copyright owners. Sound nice to you ? Oh, and if you can see cracks in the idea, please share them but remember, I'm stress-testing the idea, I don't want to start flame wars. Thank you very much -- Alex Lovin - www.erasereality.3x.ro From emu at e-bbes.com Wed May 27 16:28:16 2009 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 15:28:16 -0600 Subject: Eliza and Fun In-Reply-To: References: <4A1D9903.60204@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <4A1DB070.6060900@e-bbes.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > What I've done (as recently as last July) is to edit the inittab to > fire off a getty on /dev/ttyS0, then log in over a dumb terminal, then > run the Altair simulator from that login session. No TCP/IP port > redirection required. In my own emulation (Unix/***) that's how it works. But this is CP/M on windoze, so I wanted to play with it on a real terminal. Never liked terminal emulation software ;-) > If you aren't running something UNIX-compatible on your laptop, I have > no idea how you'd do that. Yup, on my laptop I have linux in a vmware box, to make this thing useful at all ;-) Cheers From spedraja at ono.com Wed May 27 16:29:34 2009 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 23:29:34 +0200 Subject: Eliza and Fun In-Reply-To: <4A1D9903.60204@e-bbes.com> References: <4A1D9903.60204@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: I do it with TCP-COM, one ip-to-serial redirector for Windows. I was trying it with TCPSER and CYGWIN, but terminal and laptop establish connection without a reflection of the traffic in the Dumb terminal. I shall try it again later because I don't want to purchase TCP-COM if it would be possible (even when I consider it a good product). Kind Regards Sergio t 2009/5/27 e.stiebler > SPC wrote: > >> Yesterday I installed some CP/M stuff available for the AltairZ80 >> simulator >> of SIMH. I am checking the use of the last version of the simulator from >> one >> DEC VT220 plugged in the serial port of my laptop. And I checking in >> essence >> the PDP-11 (with Unix) and Z80 (with CP/M, MP/M and Oasis) simulators >> > > How do you redirect the SIMH console in CP/M from the "telnet port 23" > to serial output of your laptop ? > > From doug at stillhq.com Wed May 27 16:37:38 2009 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 07:37:38 +1000 Subject: Making vintage computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A1DB2A2.6000505@stillhq.com> I would personally consider purchasing a re manufactured Vintage computer - Something running, say, a 6502, 8080, 8085, or Z80. Definitely not interested in anything post 8085. Not sure what I would do with an ISA bus. Not enough pins on my processor to drive all of the address bits. Multi CPU systems are probably to far out of the intent of the Vintage realm for me to consider. Doug Alexandru Lovin wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I figured this list is big enough to ask and get your opinions. > > My big question is, would you buy remanufactured vintage computers ? I have > all sorts of details regarding the line of systems I'd manufacture (most of > them from the x86 world). I spent time on the internet looking at what is > the best video card for ISA, for PCI, for AGP 2x, for AGP 4x or 8x (you > know, for the different voltages), what would be the best processor for what > system, who would buy it aside from some vintage enthusiasts, etc. > There is a follow up question, of course. If you agree with remanufacturing > the Harris 286 at 25 MHz in a system with 16 CPUs and 16 MB of RAM per CPU, > all connected in a cluster acting as a multi-CPU computer, would you be able > to find some kind of investor who's willing to finance this ? > > I'm not a spammer, just asking. I don't know the "other" architectures so > well (except the famous 68000 CPUs that powered Amigas and maybe PowerPC > powering Macs until recently) so I would only make computers with old x86 > and pre-x86 processors. Ok, I forgot one: the Zilog Z80. 32 of those in an > 8-bit system with the S-100 bus. The "new" Altair 8800, if you will. Maybe a > new Commodore PET 2001 as well (still with a gazillion CPUs and other such > stuff). > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 27 16:48:30 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 17:48:30 -0400 Subject: Eliza and Fun In-Reply-To: <4A1DB070.6060900@e-bbes.com> References: <4A1D9903.60204@e-bbes.com> <4A1DB070.6060900@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 5:28 PM, e.stiebler wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> What I've done (as recently as last July) is to edit the inittab to >> fire off a getty... > >> If you aren't running something UNIX-compatible on your laptop, I have >> no idea how you'd do that. > > Yup, on my laptop I have linux in a vmware box, to make this thing useful at > all ;-) I do that the other way around... Linux, then DOSbox if I need it (for playing ancient games). -ethan From coredump at gifford.co.uk Wed May 27 17:10:04 2009 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 23:10:04 +0100 Subject: Anyone interested in an Amstrad PCW? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A1DBA3C.5070608@gifford.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > Related to that (in that it's in the same service manual) is the GX4000 > which seems to be a cartridge-based games console. I saw one of those last week in a charity shop. It's a beige plasitc box with two game controllers attached. Presumably electronically similar to the CPC464 and CPC664. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From coredump at gifford.co.uk Wed May 27 17:19:17 2009 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 23:19:17 +0100 Subject: Anyone interested in an Amstrad PCW? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A1DBC65.5090302@gifford.co.uk> Roger Pugh wrote: > Not forgetting the Amstrad PENPAD.. an Apple Newton knockoff at a tenth > the price. I have one of those! The rubbery plastic coating on the case has deteriorated over the years, and is now a very sticky mess. I took the machine along to Dorkbot Bristol and had to handle it with rubber gloves to avoid getting the stickiness all over my hands. The audience found this very amusing. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From js at cimmeri.com Wed May 27 17:18:37 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 17:18:37 -0500 Subject: gsaauctions: interesting looking calculator (Winchester, KY) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A1DBC3D.9020801@cimmeri.com> Looks like a point of sale terminal, with a panaplex display. jS Richard wrote: > > > Dunno what kind of calculator that is, but it looks 'vintage'. > > Lot 41QSCI09471004 > > From frustum at pacbell.net Wed May 27 17:37:47 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 17:37:47 -0500 Subject: Making vintage computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A1DC0BB.1000005@pacbell.net> Alexandru Lovin wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I figured this list is big enough to ask and get your opinions. > > My big question is, would you buy remanufactured vintage computers ? I have > all sorts of details regarding the line of systems I'd manufacture (most of > them from the x86 world). I spent time on the internet looking at what is > the best video card for ISA, for PCI, for AGP 2x, for AGP 4x or 8x (you > know, for the different voltages), what would be the best processor for what > system, who would buy it aside from some vintage enthusiasts, etc. Can't think of anyone other than hobbyists, and even then, not enough of them would be willing to pay significant dollars that might underwrite such a project. Of the people here, few would consider an AGP bus to be vintage, with little cachet in terms of nostalgia. AGPx isn't a bus that a hobbyist would interface to, for the most part. > There is a follow up question, of course. If you agree with remanufacturing > the Harris 286 at 25 MHz in a system with 16 CPUs and 16 MB of RAM per CPU, > all connected in a cluster acting as a multi-CPU computer, would you be able > to find some kind of investor who's willing to finance this ? No. Not even close. Even if you did manage to get the money to build it, what software could take advantage of it? The whole reason for parallel processing isn't the "coolness" of it, it is because the person wants results faster. That problem is much more easily achieved with a modern CPU. Out of curiosity, are you talking about actually putting down 16 CPUs with 16 independent memory systems, or are you talking about some kind of large FPGA with 16 CPUs on-board? > ... Ok, I forgot one: the Zilog Z80. 32 of those in an > 8-bit system with the S-100 bus. The "new" Altair 8800, if you will. Maybe a > new Commodore PET 2001 as well (still with a gazillion CPUs and other such > stuff). A 32 CPU Z80 system might make for a cool demo and web page, but not much more. > The other computers would be (warning, boring list ahead): > > one with 16 386 CPUs, a lot of RAM (as far as I know, the 386 DX ... > > The computers would be completely "integrated." Onboard everything, except > the optical drive, hard drive, ram modules, power supply and mouse. Some > modules would be optional, like the Bluetooth, Wi-Fi or infrared module. and the drivers come from where? > All of them would get optional 3dfx hardware (up to the K6-III+, the > computers would only get Voodoo II accelerators, after that it's Voodoo 5 > 6000 and then Rampage). The idea is to buy the rights to remanufacture all > the needed chips (and ask for modifications before that, in most cases) from > the original copyright owners. You think intel will give you the rights to manufacture old x86 designs? or nvidia will care to unearth and hand over the 3dfx source code (chips, drivers, test programs) because they think it would be a cool hack? > Sound nice to you ? Oh, and if you can see cracks in the idea, please share > them but remember, I'm stress-testing the idea, I don't want to start flame > wars. It sounds like a far-fetched pipe dream to me. See if you can pull off something on a smaller scale before you attempt to build grandiose systems. What other systems have you designed, built, and brought to completion? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed May 27 17:48:29 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 15:48:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Making vintage computers In-Reply-To: <4A1DB2A2.6000505@stillhq.com> References: <4A1DB2A2.6000505@stillhq.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 May 2009, Doug Jackson wrote: > I would personally consider purchasing a re manufactured Vintage computer - > > Something running, say, a 6502, 8080, 8085, or Z80. Definitely not > interested in anything post 8085. > > Not sure what I would do with an ISA bus. Not enough pins on my > processor to drive all of the address bits. Multi CPU systems are > probably to far out of the intent of the Vintage realm for me to > consider. Vaguely related to this, how about newly-manufactured XKL Toad-1 machines? Does anyone know how feasable something like this would be? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From doug at stillhq.com Wed May 27 17:53:18 2009 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 08:53:18 +1000 Subject: Making vintage computers In-Reply-To: References: <4A1DB2A2.6000505@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <4A1DC45E.1000208@stillhq.com> > Vaguely related to this, how about newly-manufactured XKL Toad-1 > machines? Does anyone know how feasable something like this would be? > Now that would be interesting.... How would we reproduce the 55dBa Noise output and the 1750 W heat dissipation? :-) http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/td-1b.html Doug From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed May 27 18:02:12 2009 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 00:02:12 +0100 Subject: Anyone interested in an Amstrad PCW? In-Reply-To: <4A1DBA3C.5070608@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: On 27/05/2009 23:10, "John Honniball" wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: >> Related to that (in that it's in the same service manual) is the GX4000 >> which seems to be a cartridge-based games console. > > I saw one of those last week in a charity shop. It's a beige > plasitc box with two game controllers attached. Presumably > electronically similar to the CPC464 and CPC664. >From memory the GX4000 is a repackaged CPC6128, similar hardware. I only have 4 games for mine so I'm guessing they weren't that popular. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From Watzman at neo.rr.com Wed May 27 18:22:52 2009 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 19:22:52 -0400 Subject: Doorbell switch with an interesting brand name In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's only part of what happened. The name was sold --non exclusively-- to a firm in the US for the production of certain household security products. It creates an odd situation, because at this point there are totally unrelated entities using (or at least able to use) various forms of the names "Heath", "Heath Company", "Heathkit", "Heath/Zenith", etc. ... for different, unrelated product lines. -Barry Watzman From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Doorbell switch with an interesting brand name... The reason I mention it is that the brand name on said [doorbell] switch is 'Heath/Zenith', and the way they're written is very similar (I'd say identical) to the old Heath/Zenith brand used on classic computers On the pack (amongst other things) are the statements 'Should you require it, Heath Zenith offer a range of other accessories and bell wire' (in that one , the 'Heath Zenith' is in a normal font. And 'DESA UK LTD www.desaeurope.com ... A division of Desa International Inc. The world's largest doorchime company' So is that what happened to the Heath and Zenith brand names :-( -tony From RichA at vulcan.com Wed May 27 18:37:57 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 16:37:57 -0700 Subject: Making vintage computers In-Reply-To: References: <4A1DB2A2.6000505@stillhq.com> Message-ID: > From: David Griffith > Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 3:48 PM > Vaguely related to this, how about newly-manufactured XKL Toad-1 machines? > Does anyone know how feasable something like this would be? Not terribly. You would want to re-design the CPU using a single Xilinx FPGA instead of the two Altera parts (18 years is a long long time). The XKL-1 board is nowhere near state of the art. You would need to guarantee the bug-for-bug compatibility of the floating-point instruction sets. Memory sizes/prices have moved way beyond what was possible in 1993, when the XMG-1 board was designed. We could only offer 32MW per board, and the 512MW board design died when the engineer moved on to other pastures. At this point a 1GW board would make the most sense--just fill up the entire address space. The XNI-1 4-port Ethernet card is only capable of 10baseT and 10base5/10base2 (via AUI connector and a Cabletron box). Create a 100baseT or 1000baseT board instead, with or without multiple ports. FASTWIDE differential SCSI-2 ("HVD")? If you stay SCSI, go for LVD U320. Better, introduce SATA to the 36bit world. You also have the problem that the TOPS-20 filesystem maxes out at ~24GB (as in, the on-disk data structures simply do not have any way to handle more data than that), so you're going to have to do some monitor work--either introduce the concept of partitions, a la Unix (because those are only somewhat less bletcherous than DOS partitions), or devise an entirely new filesystem for TOPS-20 over which you can lay the original filesystem semantics to preserve your software investment. Don't get me wrong. The Toad-1 was a great idea for its time, and I'm really sorry that we missed our market window, but that time is past. The best way to get superior PDP-10 cycles is to run the KLH10 emulator (a commercial class program, as opposed to the toy provided by SimH). On X86 processors, the speed of the emulated CPU is very nearly proportional to each 100MHz of the base clock speed; I haven't seen the benchmarks for X64 or PowerPC, but they are probably in the same ballpark. The TOPS-20 monitor has not been tweaked for larger filesystem sizes, but you can emulate more disks than most sites ever had (8 per channel, 6 channels--or go without Ethernet and get 8 channels). The current maintainer of KLH10 is not interested in taking TOPS-20 beyond 27 bits of addressing (unlike the Toad-1's full 30-bit address space), but others might be persuaded to take that on. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed May 27 18:42:57 2009 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 19:42:57 -0400 Subject: Help with Power Supply Input Current? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A1DD001.20200@compsys.to> >Tony Duell wrote: >>If the load for two power supplies is the same, will the input current >>be similar if the maximum output rating of one power supply is >>double the other power supply, assuming that the load is within >>the rating of the smaller power supply? >> >> > >This depends on the efficiency of the power supplies, which is basically >defined as the ration of output power to input power. This efficiency >obviously depends on the design of the power supply (linears are a lot >worse than switchets) and to some extend on the maximum power rating of >the PSU. But for the supplies you're thinking of, it's likely to be >pretty much the same. > >In whcih case for a given output power (that is, for the same load >connected to the PSU), the input power is going to be much the same no >matter which PSU you use. And thus the amount of time your UPS will run >it for is going to be much the same > > Many thanks to Pete, Eric and Tony. I quoted Tony only because he was last as well as being a little more complete. From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 27 19:03:07 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 17:03:07 -0700 Subject: Making vintage computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A1D724B.9731.301D621F@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 May 2009 at 0:24, Alexandru Lovin wrote: > My big question is, would you buy remanufactured vintage computers ? I > have all sorts of details regarding the line of systems I'd > manufacture (most of them from the x86 world). I spent time on the > internet looking at what is the best video card for ISA, for PCI, for > AGP 2x, for AGP 4x or 8x (you know, for the different voltages), what > would be the best processor for what system, who would buy it aside > from some vintage enthusiasts, etc. There is a follow up question, of > course. If you agree with remanufacturing the Harris 286 at 25 MHz in > a system with 16 CPUs and 16 MB of RAM per CPU, all connected in a > cluster acting as a multi-CPU computer, would you be able to find some > kind of investor who's willing to finance this ? My interpretation of the word "remanufacture" isn't the same as yours, apparently. When I buy a "remanufactured" alternator for my car, I take it to mean that substantial parts of the innards of a used one have been replaced and the result should be nearly as good as new, but at a lower price. In other words, "to refurbish". I think what you're talking about is either a reproduction or emulation. My feeling is that you'd be appealing to an extremely small market segment, even on a planet of 7 billion souls. The NRE on something like what you're talking about would drive the cost of the final product (based on sales projections) way beyond what anyone in the "classic computer" interest group would want to pay for the opportunity to play on some old slow hardware. It's not practical to reproduce some of the really antique systems. Perhaps you could program an FPGA to emulate an IBM 709, but where would you obtain all of the unit record (punched card) equipment to make it realistic? Heck, just finding a ready source 1/2" 7-track tape drives would be a bit of a challenge. I submit that without those aspects, the experience would be too far from authentic so as to be pointless. Now, if you came up with a full-sensory holographic simulation, that might be interesting. My .02 only, Chuck From shumaker at att.net Wed May 27 19:23:00 2009 From: shumaker at att.net (s shumaker) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 20:23:00 -0400 Subject: law enforcement assistance w/paper tape Message-ID: <4A1DD964.8030804@att.net> Help! Several months back I posted a request to the list seeking assistance in creating some examples of paper tape media for use by a law enforcement officer wishing to use them in a class he teaches. The course is about computer forensics but for perspective, he does a segment on various types of media with examples. At the time, a list member responded and offered to assist but apparently wasn't able to help... not sure what happened but the officer contacted me again to see if I could ask a second time. Is there a list member with a functioning paper tape unit that would be willing to run some examples for this gentleman? At the time I suggested as classroom examples two each of the following: short roll of blank tape punched tape containing a relatively short program hardcopy printout of the program listing (keeping it period consistent, greenbar would be nice) Any volunteers? - here's a chance to help out. He's located in GA and willing to reimburse any costs involved. Steve Shumaker From steve at radiorobots.com Wed May 27 19:09:31 2009 From: steve at radiorobots.com (Steve Stutman) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 20:09:31 -0400 Subject: law enforcement assistance w/paper tape In-Reply-To: <4A1DD964.8030804@att.net> References: <4A1DD964.8030804@att.net> Message-ID: <4A1DD63B.7020400@radiorobots.com> s shumaker wrote: > Help! > > Several months back I posted a request to the list seeking assistance > in creating some examples of paper tape media for use by a law > enforcement officer wishing to use them in a class he teaches. The > course is about computer forensics but for perspective, he does a > segment on various types of media with examples. At the time, a list > member responded and offered to assist but apparently wasn't able to > help... not sure what happened but the officer contacted me again to > see if I could ask a second time. > > Is there a list member with a functioning paper tape unit that would > be willing to run some examples for this gentleman? > > At the time I suggested as classroom examples two each of the following: > > short roll of blank tape > punched tape containing a relatively short program > hardcopy printout of the program listing (keeping it period > consistent, greenbar would be nice) > > > Any volunteers? - here's a chance to help out. He's located in GA and > willing to reimburse any costs involved. > > > Steve Shumaker Will he take care of outstanding tickets? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 27 19:47:04 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 18:47:04 -0600 Subject: Making vintage computers In-Reply-To: <4A1DC45E.1000208@stillhq.com> References: <4A1DB2A2.6000505@stillhq.com> <4A1DC45E.1000208@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <4A1DDF08.6080801@jetnet.ab.ca> Doug Jackson wrote: > >> Vaguely related to this, how about newly-manufactured XKL Toad-1 >> machines? Does anyone know how feasable something like this would be? >> > Now that would be interesting.... > > How would we reproduce the 55dBa Noise output and the 1750 W heat > dissipation? :-) > http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/td-1b.html I built in pizza oven and coke dispenser hooked up to the internet of course for the long hours spent programming it. :) > Doug > > > From shumaker at att.net Wed May 27 19:46:35 2009 From: shumaker at att.net (s shumaker) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 20:46:35 -0400 Subject: law enforcement assistance w/paper tape In-Reply-To: <4A1DD63B.7020400@radiorobots.com> References: <4A1DD964.8030804@att.net> <4A1DD63B.7020400@radiorobots.com> Message-ID: <4A1DDEEB.2020606@att.net> if you *really* want ask him that question, I'll pass his email to you. after that you're on your own! :P ss Steve Stutman wrote: > s shumaker wrote: > >> Help! >> >> Several months back I posted a request to the list seeking assistance >> in creating some examples of paper tape media for use by a law >> enforcement officer wishing to use them in a class he teaches. The >> course is about computer forensics but for perspective, he does a >> segment on various types of media with examples. At the time, a >> list member responded and offered to assist but apparently wasn't >> able to help... not sure what happened but the officer contacted me >> again to see if I could ask a second time. >> >> Is there a list member with a functioning paper tape unit that would >> be willing to run some examples for this gentleman? >> >> At the time I suggested as classroom examples two each of the following: >> >> short roll of blank tape >> punched tape containing a relatively short program >> hardcopy printout of the program listing (keeping it period >> consistent, greenbar would be nice) >> >> >> Any volunteers? - here's a chance to help out. He's located in GA >> and willing to reimburse any costs involved. >> >> >> Steve Shumaker > > Will he take care of outstanding tickets? > From thypope at gmail.com Wed May 27 20:25:35 2009 From: thypope at gmail.com (Alexandru Lovin) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 04:25:35 +0300 Subject: Making vintage computers In-Reply-To: <4A1DC45E.1000208@stillhq.com> References: <4A1DB2A2.6000505@stillhq.com> <4A1DC45E.1000208@stillhq.com> Message-ID: - Something running, say, a 6502, 8080, 8085, or Z80. Definitely not interested in anything post 8085. Yes, you would be interested (possibly, not sure!) in the Altair 8800 re-make. - Even if you did manage to get the money to build it, what software could take advantage of it? The whole reason for parallel processing isn't the "coolness" of it, it is because the person wants results faster. That problem is much more easily achieved with a modern CPU. Grandma doesn't need SSE3 (maybe you've seen a grandma with an IT degree, though). I'm willing to try and see if a low end from nowadays is more expensive to make than sixteen 286 or 32 Zilogs. - A 32 CPU Z80 system might make for a cool demo and web page, but not much more. The real sales won't come from that :) The company would still sell dual cores and such new things, but not exclusively. That's the idea. Also, these remanufactured machines would be made so that you can actually use them for a few tasks from today. You can decode MP3s with a 286, using a hardware MPEG-2 decoder for the ISA bus, for example. That's why I thought of putting more than one CPU in there. No other reason. Takes away the coolness ? Maybe, but it's healthy to have more CPU power. - and the drivers come from where? Coders. Same as everybody else. Besides, when taking the technologies from the original manufacturers, I would ask for the latest driver source files as well. Also, for the drivers that don't exist (like monochrome graphics on a Hercules video card for Windows NT family) I would need the specs and the coder would do the rest. - You think intel will give you the rights to manufacture old x86 designs? or nvidia will care to unearth and hand over the 3dfx source code (chips, drivers, test programs) because they think it would be a cool hack? No, but because they would get some money for that. I'm looking for ways to contact Intel Capital a bit more directly, to be honest. They have a lot of the chips I need - USB 1.1 controllers, ISA hard drive controllers, a lot of CPUs, etc. Nvidia simply managed to cut off the advancement of 3dfx cards and rendered them obsolete. I wouldn't interfere with the modern product line-up, just remake the old ones. - It sounds like a far-fetched pipe dream to me. See if you can pull off something on a smaller scale before you attempt to build grandiose systems. What other systems have you designed, built, and brought to completion? Quite! Yes, starting off with something that you can find the parts for (like a dual core system) is probably easier. Other systems designed by me ? I'm a guy with ideas, what you would call a producer. Not an engineer. I understand this list is populated by very technical people so you might have assumed I'm one of them, but I'm not. However, the single most interesting question was this: - Out of curiosity, are you talking about actually putting down 16 CPUs with 16 independent memory systems, or are you talking about some kind of large FPGA with 16 CPUs on-board? Oh God, thank you for my expert friend from Australia! Yes, Sir, he told me how. Basically the 286 would use hardware expanded memory as the link within a cluster of sixteen motherboards (out of which fifteen are identical, just the CPU, RAM and chipset as far as I understood it, the last one having all the other chips - graphics, sound, etc.) and the cluster would work as a single, multi-CPU computer. Now, when it comes to the 386 and onwards, these can address 4 GB of RAM. I wouldn't put 16 mobos in one cluster with each of them having 4 GB of RAM. Instead, the northbridge would probably be connected to a custom bus syncing all the CPUs. Something along the lines of HyperThreading, which he said is something similar to non uniform memory addressing. The point is, use the same amount of RAM for all the CPUs. Like the difference between regular multi-CPU systems and regular multi-core CPU systems. You probably know multi-CPU systems have their memory "per-CPU" while the cores inside a multi-core CPU all use the same system RAM. - I think what you're talking about is either a reproduction or emulation. I'm not natively English! :) I didn't use "refurbish" because I didn't mean refurbish, indeed. Reproduction is the most accurate term but what if the inscriptions on the chips would be changed ? I think AMD changed their logo since the 386 DX 40 MHz, didn't they ? Also, I would need two FPUs from Cyrix, which are now owned by VIA. I would probably have to stamp VIA on them, not Cyrix. I think someone asked about 16-bit or 8-bit operating systems able to take advantage of multi-CPU configurations. Yep, Linux can be coded, ReactOS can be coded, FreeDOS can be coded for those purposes. I would think these are enough. It's simple, not easy. There is already an 8-bit "sort-of" Linux called Lunix: http://hld.c64.org/poldi/lunix/lunix.html There is already a 16-bit Linux called ELKS: http://elks.sourceforge.net/ Extremely small market ? Again, there will be dual cores and quad cores and everything. Computers "with a purpose" the contents of which the average user won't know. He will simply know his needs are covered. I'm just here to take the pulse of the classic computer community. You apparently don't like the idea very much. The XKL Toad-1 is a huge beast for what I have in mind. Cloning that one would be a major pain and it would be very hard to ship to a buyer. 100 pounds including 40 pounds battery backup ? You gotta be kidding me. But thank you for all your opinions. Any other comments you might have, I'll be glad to read them. It can't hurt. From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed May 27 20:30:15 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 21:30:15 -0400 Subject: Eliza and Fun In-Reply-To: <4A1D9903.60204@e-bbes.com> References: <4A1D9903.60204@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <200905272130.15951.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 27 May 2009, e.stiebler wrote: > SPC wrote: > > Yesterday I installed some CP/M stuff available for the AltairZ80 > > simulator of SIMH. I am checking the use of the last version of the > > simulator from one DEC VT220 plugged in the serial port of my > > laptop. And I checking in essence the PDP-11 (with Unix) and Z80 > > (with CP/M, MP/M and Oasis) simulators > > How do you redirect the SIMH console in CP/M from the "telnet port > 23" to serial output of your laptop ? I'm not the OP, but running a getty on the serial port seems like the obvious way to do this to me. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed May 27 20:31:05 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 21:31:05 -0400 Subject: Editors (was: Re: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp?) In-Reply-To: References: <20090526121814.GA28162@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <200905272131.05484.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 26 May 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 26, 2009, at 8:18 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > >> Do they make TECO for a Mac? > >> > >> I LOVED TECO on RT11-SJ and RSX-11+. Don't have much need for it > >> now (no > >> longer programming robots), but TECO rocks! > > > > A coworker still uses EDT, our boss jokingly said that we should > > give him a keyboard without the numpad, just to make him stop. > > Lots of people "still" use EDT. I'm not sure why one should feel > compelled to stop. Because it's not vim? :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed May 27 20:34:10 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 21:34:10 -0400 Subject: Eliza and Fun In-Reply-To: <4A1DB070.6060900@e-bbes.com> References: <4A1DB070.6060900@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <200905272134.10377.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 27 May 2009, e.stiebler wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > What I've done (as recently as last July) is to edit the inittab to > > fire off a getty on /dev/ttyS0, then log in over a dumb terminal, > > then run the Altair simulator from that login session. No TCP/IP > > port redirection required. > > In my own emulation (Unix/***) that's how it works. But this is CP/M > on windoze, so I wanted to play with it on a real terminal. Never > liked terminal emulation software ;-) If it's hard to do, then maybe you're using the wrong OS for the job at hand. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 27 20:39:58 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 21:39:58 -0400 Subject: Making vintage computers In-Reply-To: <4A1DC45E.1000208@stillhq.com> References: <4A1DB2A2.6000505@stillhq.com> <4A1DC45E.1000208@stillhq.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 6:53 PM, Doug Jackson wrote: > >> Vaguely related to this, how about newly-manufactured XKL Toad-1 machines? >> Does anyone know how feasable something like this would be? >> > Now that would be interesting.... > > How would we reproduce the 55dBa Noise output and the 1750 W heat > dissipation? ?:-) > http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/td-1b.html Build the CPU into a working clothes dryer? -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 27 20:53:40 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 19:53:40 -0600 Subject: Making vintage computers In-Reply-To: References: <4A1DB2A2.6000505@stillhq.com> <4A1DC45E.1000208@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <4A1DEEA4.1040701@jetnet.ab.ca> Alexandru Lovin wrote: > Extremely small market ? Again, there will be dual cores and quad cores and > everything. Computers "with a purpose" the contents of which the average > user won't know. He will simply know his needs are covered. > I'm just here to take the pulse of the classic computer community. You > apparently don't like the idea very much. The XKL Toad-1 is a huge beast for > what I have in mind. Cloning that one would be a major pain and it would be > very hard to ship to a buyer. 100 pounds including 40 pounds battery backup > ? You gotta be kidding me. Cloning I could see a problem ... 100 pounds is light weight for a classic computer. I don't think you can ship a large battery international. Why do read above * is over night shipping is wanted for everything?* > > But thank you for all your opinions. Any other comments you might have, I'll > be glad to read them. It can't hurt. > Now back to putting together my SPARE TIME GIZMOS dumb terminal once I print out the online PDF manual. Ben. I love REAL hardware! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 27 21:00:57 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 22:00:57 -0400 Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) Message-ID: On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 9:53 PM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Now back to putting together my SPARE TIME GIZMOS dumb terminal once I print > out the online PDF manual. I just got my VT-6 partial kit today - time for me to start assembling it! -ethan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed May 27 21:04:11 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 19:04:11 -0700 Subject: Doorbell switch with an interesting brand name In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Only an insider would be able to follow the company from airplane kits to door bell buttons. Dwight ---------------------------------------- > From: Watzman at neo.rr.com > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Doorbell switch with an interesting brand name > Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 19:22:52 -0400 > > It's only part of what happened. The name was sold --non exclusively-- to a > firm in the US for the production of certain household security products. > It creates an odd situation, because at this point there are totally > unrelated entities using (or at least able to use) various forms of the > names "Heath", "Heath Company", "Heathkit", "Heath/Zenith", etc. ... for > different, unrelated product lines. > > -Barry Watzman > > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Doorbell switch with an interesting brand name... > > The reason I mention it is that the brand name on said [doorbell] switch is > 'Heath/Zenith', and the way they're written is very similar (I'd say > identical) to the old Heath/Zenith brand used on classic computers > > On the pack (amongst other things) are the statements 'Should you require > it, Heath Zenith offer a range of other accessories and bell wire' (in that > one , the 'Heath Zenith' is in a normal font. And 'DESA UK LTD > www.desaeurope.com ... A division of Desa International Inc. The world's > largest doorchime company' > > So is that what happened to the Heath and Zenith brand names :-( > > -tony > > _________________________________________________________________ Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd1_052009 From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed May 27 21:11:22 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 22:11:22 -0400 Subject: 486 case LED display jumpers References: <4A1D8E3C.70800@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <241BE686B0974E66907D1B6005861D65@dell8300> That link worked out, thanks. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Pemberton" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 3:02 PM Subject: Re: 486 case LED display jumpers > Teo Zenios wrote: >> Anybody happen to have the jumper diagram to set a LED 2 digit case speed >> setting? The PCB has ST-8A on it if that helps. > > There's a reverse-engineered partial circuit on VOGONS: > http://vogons.zetafleet.com/viewtopic.php?t=10780&sid=f80bc89c785100a9d5bfa236f7e45b31 > > If you could put a photo of the PCB on one of those photo-sharing sites > (say, Photobucket?) and post the URL, I might have the paperwork kicking > around in one of my folders. "TH99" (Total Hardware, 1999 edition) might > also be worth a look, copies of that are kicking around on Google. > > Usually the jumpers are laid out in a tesselated "T" pattern, a bit like > this: > > 1 2 3 > 4 > > Valid jumper positions are 1-2, 2-3, 2-4 or no jumper. If memory serves, > 1-2 is "on with TURBO on", 2-3 is "on with TURBO off", 2-4 is "on all the > time", no jumper is, well, segment not lit. Which segment is tied to which > jumper cluster depends on the specific display in use. > > Of course, you get boards designed by folks who thought they were being > clever, which end up with a layout like: > > 1 a 3 > b 4 c > 1 d 3 > > (or something like that, I've probably got it at least a little wrong) > > Letters = segments; 1,3,4 = supplies. > > You could probably reverse-engineer one with a multimeter in about 25 > minutes. Remove all the jumpers, Set TURBO off, find all the lines that > are high, repeat with TURBO on. From that you'll be able to figure out > which pins are always-high, and which depend on the state of the TURBO > input. Anything that stays low is a segment. If dealing with a > common-anode display, reverse "high" and "low". > > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Wed May 27 21:29:19 2009 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 22:29:19 -0400 Subject: Editors (was: Re: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp?) In-Reply-To: <200905261515.n4QFF23M015454@floodgap.com> References: <20090526134734.M33349@kw.igs.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20090527222600.0388ca90@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Cameron Kaiser may have mentioned these words: > > > Do they make TECO for a Mac? > > > > $ port install teco > >Cheater. I want to see it on OS 9 ;-) Just use TS-Edit then! You did mean the _real_ OS-9, right? ;-) { Ducks & Runs! } Laterz, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 27 21:44:56 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 22:44:56 -0400 Subject: Editors (was: Re: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp?) In-Reply-To: <200905272131.05484.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <20090526121814.GA28162@Update.UU.SE> <200905272131.05484.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <98D89E67-A30B-4FB1-98E2-4D23B2248F43@neurotica.com> On May 27, 2009, at 9:31 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >>>> Do they make TECO for a Mac? >>>> >>>> I LOVED TECO on RT11-SJ and RSX-11+. Don't have much need for it >>>> now (no >>>> longer programming robots), but TECO rocks! >>> >>> A coworker still uses EDT, our boss jokingly said that we should >>> give him a keyboard without the numpad, just to make him stop. >> >> Lots of people "still" use EDT. I'm not sure why one should feel >> compelled to stop. > > Because it's not vim? :) *BOOM!* (<-- head explodes) :) -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 27 22:17:11 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 21:17:11 -0600 Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A1E0237.1010506@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 9:53 PM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca > wrote: >> Now back to putting together my SPARE TIME GIZMOS dumb terminal once I print >> out the online PDF manual. > > I just got my VT-6 partial kit today - time for me to start assembling it! > > -ethan > Just don't run out solder like I did ... I got a few caps in and where did I lose the rest of the roll? Any how I also have to next week pick up a 9 volt DC wall wart too. Ben. From dm561 at torfree.net Wed May 27 22:25:51 2009 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 23:25:51 -0400 Subject: 486 case LED display jumpers Message-ID: <01C9DF22.90408780@MSE_D03> -------------Original Message: Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 14:28:41 -0400 From: "Teo Zenios" Subject: 486 case LED display jumpers >Anybody happen to have the jumper diagram to set a LED 2 digit case speed setting? The PCB has ST-8A on it if that helps. --------------Reply: I do, but it's such poor quality that a scan would be illegible. Oriented with the four pin connector at top right: The four pins are: +5, Gnd, Turbo LED, NC The three pins are the turbo switch: Low, common, High. The bottom row of 28 is the tens digit, and the one above it the units. Optionally there may be another four for a hundreds "1" digit which you apparently don't have. Segments are a-g left to right, and each segment is controlled by four pins arranged in a 'T', alternately upside-down and right-side-up. a b c x xxx x xxx x xxx etc. (spread apart for clarity) The junction of the three "bars" goes to the segment, and the three end points are the power source: Looking at each "T" in its proper orientation: Jumper down the leg = always on. Jumper on the left bar = on with turbo Jumper on right bar = on with normal Segments are named the usual way, a-f clockwise with a on top, g in the centre. Clear as mud? Hope it helps; almost as much fun as figuring it out yourself... mike From IanK at vulcan.com Wed May 27 22:30:37 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 20:30:37 -0700 Subject: Making vintage computers In-Reply-To: References: <4A1DB2A2.6000505@stillhq.com> <4A1DC45E.1000208@stillhq.com>, Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandru Lovin [thypope at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 6:25 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Making vintage computers [snip] Oh God, thank you for my expert friend from Australia! Yes, Sir, he told me how. Basically the 286 would use hardware expanded memory as the link within a cluster of sixteen motherboards (out of which fifteen are identical, just the CPU, RAM and chipset as far as I understood it, the last one having all the other chips - graphics, sound, etc.) and the cluster would work as a single, multi-CPU computer. Now, when it comes to the 386 and onwards, these can address 4 GB of RAM. I wouldn't put 16 mobos in one cluster with each of them having 4 GB of RAM. Instead, the northbridge would probably be connected to a custom bus syncing all the CPUs. Something along the lines of HyperThreading, which he said is something similar to non uniform memory addressing. The point is, use the same amount of RAM for all the CPUs. Like the difference between regular multi-CPU systems and regular multi-core CPU systems. You probably know multi-CPU systems have their memory "per-CPU" while the cores inside a multi-core CPU all use the same system RAM. Sorry, hyperthreading (aka SMT) is NOTHING like non-uniform memory addressing (NUMA). Hyperthreading is an architecture where additional program counters and registers can access the same functional units (e.g. ALU) to exploit thread-level parallelism, while the traditional superscalar architecture exploits instruction-level parallelism. With the architecture you describe, it seems like a cache-coherent NUMA. BTW, multi-CPU vs. multicore isn't that much different, except that it's less hardware for multicore systems to share the memory interface - each one has its own cache, with traditional protocols to avoid sequential incoherency (i.e. a different result from multiple CPUs processing an instruction stream as opposed to one CPU). -- Ian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 27 22:44:56 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 23:44:56 -0400 Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) In-Reply-To: <4A1E0237.1010506@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4A1E0237.1010506@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 11:17 PM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I just got my VT-6 partial kit today - time for me to start assembling it! >> > Just don't run out solder like ?I did ... I got a few caps in and where did > I lose the rest of the roll? Not something I'm likely to do... I have multiple rolls of 2-3 sizes within three armspans. > Any how I also have to next week pick up a 9 volt DC wall wart too. I usually get those from the Thrift Stores near here for $0.90 (along with car chargers, etc). For this, though, I was planning on using externally regulated power since I also get +5VDC switchers from the same source at the same price. I also have an unassembled PockeTerm. I was thinking of powering both it and the VT6 _plus_ a 2-port KVM from the same +5VDC supply and using the KVM for a session switch. ;-) -ethan From spectre at floodgap.com Wed May 27 22:45:30 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 20:45:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Editors (was: Re: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp?) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20090527222600.0388ca90@mail.30below.com> from Roger Merchberger at "May 27, 9 10:29:19 pm" Message-ID: <200905280345.n4S3jU7J015840@floodgap.com> > > > > Do they make TECO for a Mac? > > > > > > $ port install teco > > > > Cheater. I want to see it on OS 9 ;-) > > Just use TS-Edit then! > You did mean the _real_ OS-9, right? ;-) > { Ducks & Runs! } Okay, I walked into that one. :-D -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- To be, or not to be -- that always confused me ... -- "In Living Color" ---- From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 27 22:49:33 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 20:49:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Doorbell switch with an interesting brand name In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090527204843.O92172@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 27 May 2009, dwight elvey wrote: > Only an insider would be able to follow the > company from airplane kits to door bell buttons. My mother's motion detector floodlights are Heath-Zenith From dm561 at torfree.net Wed May 27 22:54:32 2009 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 23:54:32 -0400 Subject: BM 029 Keypunch has arrived Message-ID: <01C9DF26.85B2AB00@MSE_D03> Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 16:44:17 -0400 From: William Donzelli Subject: Re: BM 029 Keypunch has arrived >Sorry, I have no spare relays. I need every one I can get my hands on. >I probably have about 800 sockets in my collection, and they are not >all filled. -- >Will ---------------- I should still have a few of those somewhere; ya want 'em if I can find 'em? m From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 27 23:04:04 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 22:04:04 -0600 Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) In-Reply-To: References: <4A1E0237.1010506@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4A1E0D34.7020508@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I usually get those from the Thrift Stores near here for $0.90 (along > with car chargers, etc). For this, though, I was planning on using > externally regulated power since I also get +5VDC switchers from the > same source at the same price. I'll have to check there for a wart. I do plan to get a cheap VGA display there once I get the system working. > I also have an unassembled PockeTerm. I was thinking of powering both > it and the VT6 _plus_ a 2-port KVM from the same +5VDC supply and > using the KVM for a session switch. ;-) Then again, may just power it from the SCB6120, I got a AT switcher for that so I have no problems with power. > -ethan Ben. From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed May 27 23:10:41 2009 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 23:10:41 -0500 Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) References: Message-ID: <016101c9df4a$4492b8d0$c900a8c0@JWEST> Ethan wrote... > I just got my VT-6 partial kit today - time for me to start assembling it! I'm holding out for the VT-5, I'd definitely prefer that one :) Jay From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 27 23:14:01 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 00:14:01 -0400 Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) In-Reply-To: <4A1E0D34.7020508@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4A1E0237.1010506@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A1E0D34.7020508@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 12:04 AM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I usually get those from the Thrift Stores near here... > > I'll have to check there for a wart. I do plan to get a cheap VGA display > there once I get the system working. I got a Dell 15" and an off-brand 15" LCD display from the Thrift, perfectly working w/internal PSUs for $15-$20 about 2-3 weeks ago. > Then again, may just power it from the SCB6120, I got a AT switcher for that > so I have no problems with power. Yup. No problems there. -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 27 23:20:31 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 22:20:31 -0600 Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) In-Reply-To: <016101c9df4a$4492b8d0$c900a8c0@JWEST> References: <016101c9df4a$4492b8d0$c900a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <4A1E110F.2030906@jetnet.ab.ca> Jay West wrote: > I'm holding out for the VT-5, I'd definitely prefer that one :) That could be a while ... I think Smart's Shoe Phone could could come out sooner... If I remember right, that had rotory dial too... no darn keypads to mess with... > Jay Still with the right packaging and software, that is nice terminal. Ben. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 27 23:21:33 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 00:21:33 -0400 Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) In-Reply-To: <016101c9df4a$4492b8d0$c900a8c0@JWEST> References: <016101c9df4a$4492b8d0$c900a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 12:10 AM, Jay West wrote: > Ethan wrote... >> >> I just got my VT-6 partial kit today - time for me to start assembling it! > > I'm holding out for the VT-5, I'd definitely prefer that one :) I'll be building that one, too. ;-) It's the only reason I didn't get two VT-6s. I have enough real terminals that I don't mind having a few "dumb" terminal boards with different features for different applications. I happen to already have a couple of IOB6120s for my SBC6120s, so I never really planned on mating a VT-* with mine, but I'll probably try it out to see it work. One plan I have is to run LCDproc with the curses driver - normally used for debugging clients or for throwing up a simple display in the corner of some other machine. In this case, I'd have a VGA display and VT-* board some distance away from the host (by serial cable or by short-haul fiber modems) as an easy-to-use remote status display. -ethan From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu May 28 00:22:36 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 02:22:36 -0300 Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) References: <4A1E0237.1010506@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <06cf01c9df54$96f90980$35c219bb@desktaba> > Just don't run out solder like I did ... I got a few caps in and where > did I > lose the > rest of the roll? Any how I also have to next week pick up a 9 volt DC > wall wart Do it like me, when the "main" solder roll is at end, have a "sub" new solder roll ready :) From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu May 28 00:23:37 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 02:23:37 -0300 Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) References: <4A1E0237.1010506@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A1E0D34.7020508@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <06d601c9df54$97ee8d10$35c219bb@desktaba> > I'll have to check there for a wart. I do plan to get a cheap VGA display > there once I get the system working. Get an old macintosh and gut it with your SBC6120 :) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 28 00:48:20 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 23:48:20 -0600 Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) In-Reply-To: <06d601c9df54$97ee8d10$35c219bb@desktaba> References: <4A1E0237.1010506@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A1E0D34.7020508@jetnet.ab.ca> <06d601c9df54$97ee8d10$35c219bb@desktaba> Message-ID: <4A1E25A4.30701@jetnet.ab.ca> Alexandre Souza wrote: >> I'll have to check there for a wart. I do plan to get a cheap VGA display >> there once I get the system working. > > Get an old macintosh and gut it with your SBC6120 :) > Now you tell me ... Ben. PS. I found my roll of solder, I put it away for safe keeping. :) PPS ... Now why did he not design it to use a 9 volt AC wart ... I have those kicking around. From spedraja at ono.com Thu May 28 00:48:41 2009 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 07:48:41 +0200 Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just curious... What is the VT-6 kit ? Sergio 2009/5/28 Ethan Dicks > On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 9:53 PM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca > wrote: > > Now back to putting together my SPARE TIME GIZMOS dumb terminal once I > print > > out the online PDF manual. > > I just got my VT-6 partial kit today - time for me to start assembling it! > > -ethan > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 28 01:08:42 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 00:08:42 -0600 Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A1E2A6A.4050603@jetnet.ab.ca> SPC wrote: > Just curious... What is the VT-6 kit ? > > Sergio It lets you replace your V-8 with a V-6 for powering your dynamotor set up. You save petrol and the tubes last 25% longer. Spare Time Gizmos is selling DEC VT-220 terminal emulator kit. You have to supply a case, a wall wart, keyboard and a VGA display, to have a low cost dumb terminal. Full details here. http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/VT.htm Ben. PS, Spare time Gizmos still has the SCB6120 kit for sale: a PDP 8 clone. From dbobyn at dbrf.com Wed May 27 11:32:43 2009 From: dbobyn at dbrf.com (Dan Bobyn) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 10:32:43 -0600 Subject: HP64000 Hardware, Software, Manuals Available Message-ID: <00dd01c9dee8$c3e87460$4bb95d20$@com> Pat, Is this the Pat Fitzpatrick ex SED? If so, happy 30th Anniversary Pat. We graduated 30 yrs ago. What have you been up to? Dan - - -( ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~)- - - Dan Bobyn, P.Eng Dan Bobyn Engineering Ltd RF and Microwave Circuits Consulting Ph/Fax 403.295.2708 Mobile 403.819.8464 www.dbrf.com From info at museum-of-computing.org.uk Wed May 27 12:32:04 2009 From: info at museum-of-computing.org.uk (Simon Webb) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 18:32:04 +0100 Subject: The Museum of Computing gets a new home Message-ID: After a year in storage, the Museum of Computing is delighted to announce that it will be re-opening in July 2009 in Swindon town centre. Our volunteers are now hard at work transforming what was previously retail units into one of the most exciting and original venues in Swindon. The museum will be located at 6-7 Theatre Square, an section of the town that has been designated a cultural area in Swindons regeneration plan. For more information and to see the press release http://www.sourcewire.com/releases/rel_display.php?relid=47892 We would like to thanks all our friends for their support and look forward to welcoming you to the new museum. If you would like to help in any way with the new museum we would be delighted to hear from you. Simon Webb www.museum-of-computing.org.uk From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu May 28 01:20:54 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 03:20:54 -0300 Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) References: <4A1E2A6A.4050603@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <073a01c9df5d$a9375c60$35c219bb@desktaba> > Spare Time Gizmos is selling DEC VT-220 terminal emulator > kit. You have to supply a case, a wall wart, keyboard and a VGA > display, to have a low cost dumb terminal. Full details here. > http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/VT.htm > PS, Spare time Gizmos still has the SCB6120 kit for sale: > a PDP 8 clone. Hey, nice one! :oD I have some of these micro-terminals here in Brazil. All of them are (truly!) a PC-XT-like in a small board. They use the CHIPS xt-on-a-chip or a 80C188 and some video circuitry (Cirrus Logic 5426). I always get amazed with the nice work from STG. Congratulations for them! From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu May 28 01:30:05 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 03:30:05 -0300 Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) References: <4A1E2A6A.4050603@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <073c01c9df5f$1ee8cbf0$35c219bb@desktaba> > Spare Time Gizmos is selling DEC VT-220 terminal emulator > kit. You have to supply a case, a wall wart, keyboard and a VGA > display, to have a low cost dumb terminal. Full details here. > http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/VT.htm Hmmm...I downloaded the V54.ZIP file with the docs, schematic, etc...and it doesn't open on my machine...Any tips? It says "method unknown"?!?! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 28 01:59:32 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 00:59:32 -0600 Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) In-Reply-To: <073c01c9df5f$1ee8cbf0$35c219bb@desktaba> References: <4A1E2A6A.4050603@jetnet.ab.ca> <073c01c9df5f$1ee8cbf0$35c219bb@desktaba> Message-ID: <4A1E3654.7040105@jetnet.ab.ca> Alexandre Souza wrote: > Hmmm...I downloaded the V54.ZIP file with the docs, schematic, > etc...and it doesn't open on my machine...Any tips? It says "method > unknown"?!?! New zip format default ... At least the PDF manual you still can read. The big thing you need is a serial port ... once you build the kit, you upload and flash in the software. Ben. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu May 28 02:07:41 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 09:07:41 +0200 Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) In-Reply-To: References: <4A1E0237.1010506@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20090528070741.GA15734@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 11:44:56PM -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I also have an unassembled PockeTerm. I was thinking of powering both > it and the VT6 _plus_ a 2-port KVM from the same +5VDC supply and > using the KVM for a session switch. ;-) > I was planning on getting a PocketTerm for my SBC6120 when I found out about the VT6. Can you perhaps higlight some of the pros and cons with the two different boards ? I will probably make a custom version of the PocketTerm though, the propeller chip looks kind of neat. My hopes is that I will be able to interface it with the SBC6120 expansion port to simulate a front panel (drawn on a VGA output), since I couldn't afford a real FP6120. Honestly, I'm not sure I have the necessary skill to pull this of, but it feels like fun challenge. Cheers, Pontus. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu May 28 02:44:12 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 04:44:12 -0300 Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) References: <4A1E2A6A.4050603@jetnet.ab.ca><073c01c9df5f$1ee8cbf0$35c219bb@desktaba> <4A1E3654.7040105@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <07ea01c9df68$23c51080$35c219bb@desktaba> > New zip format default ... At least the PDF manual you still can read. > The big thing you need is a serial port ... once you build the kit, > you upload and flash in the software. One more software to install on my bloated computer :( Anyone willing to do me a favour and send me a rar copy of the package? :) From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu May 28 03:21:28 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 01:21:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: when soldering irons go bad Message-ID: Tonight I had one of those I-gotta-tinker moments at midnight. I had the Atari 2600 laid open, ready to accept the AV mod board I finished up a couple days ago. I plugged in the soldering iron and poured a capful of water from a bottle into the sponge. After about ten minutes, I picked up the iron and poked it at the sponge. No sizzle. Dink around with the cord and shank. No heat. Ah. This is the iron that I lent to someone who put melty marks in the cord. I guess it's dead. There went another disposable soldering iron. One reason I never graduated to /real/ soldering stations is that I kept wondering "what do I do when it goes bad?". What do you guys recommend? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Thu May 28 03:39:57 2009 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 01:39:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Homebrew 6502 Message-ID: <729661.55261.qm@web112209.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Now this is cool. http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/05/homebrewed-cpu/ From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu May 28 03:45:48 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 10:45:48 +0200 Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I got three Wellers one WECP-20 a WTCP-20 and a VP 801 EC desoldering station. All three are more then 15 years old and the only problem I had was a bad connection wire at the WECP. And that was easy fixed bought a new cable and I was in business again. And I solder a lot, so I think it's very economic to 'graduate' to a station. The other thing is soldering station are not direct connected to the mains and the most use a discharge resistor between the housing and the mass connector, and you can choose your own grounding point. The change you kill something by ESD is a lot smaller then when you are using a direct grounded iron. -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens David Griffith > Verzonden: donderdag 28 mei 2009 10:21 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: when soldering irons go bad > > > Tonight I had one of those I-gotta-tinker moments at > midnight. I had the Atari 2600 laid open, ready to accept > the AV mod board I finished up a couple days ago. I plugged > in the soldering iron and poured a capful of water from a > bottle into the sponge. After about ten minutes, I picked up > the iron and poked it at the sponge. No sizzle. Dink around > with the cord and shank. No heat. Ah. This is the iron > that I lent to someone who put melty marks in the cord. I > guess it's dead. There went another disposable soldering iron. > > One reason I never graduated to /real/ soldering stations is > that I kept wondering "what do I do when it goes bad?". What > do you guys recommend? > > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu May 28 04:05:39 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 10:05:39 +0100 Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A1E53E3.8000303@philpem.me.uk> David Griffith wrote: > One reason I never graduated to /real/ soldering stations is that I kept > wondering "what do I do when it goes bad?". What do you guys recommend? IME soldering stations are usually more reliable than the throwaway soldering irons. I've got an Antex 660TC, and the only problem I've had with it is that the transformer inside the base station has started buzzing. If memory serves, it's about six or seven years old now. I've been through two ST6 soldering iron stands (they usually break where the top section attaches to the base), and four soldering bits, but the iron and station are still working as well as they did when I got them. I don't think I've managed to damage the silicone cable yet (though I'm not actively trying to do so!). Even if the iron does fail, it's unlikely to take the base station with it, and the irons aren't expensive (about ?30 -- or twice the price of a 25W Antex "XS" standard soldering iron). Cost was about ?70 (down from ?120) in a Maplin clearance sale, but even at full price they're worth having. The main advantage to being able to set the temperature is that you won't end up damaging PCBs you're trying to repair. Most 25W "pound-shop special" irons will get to ~450C after about an hour of use, which is more than enough to ruin the glue that holds tracks down to PCB substrates. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From tsw-cc at johana.com Thu May 28 04:08:32 2009 From: tsw-cc at johana.com (Tom Watson) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 02:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: law enforcement assistance w/paper tape Message-ID: <724629.41120.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Steve... (and list) I may be the one who has a working paper tape punch. It still works, and I can create just about anything you desire. Just let me know what you want (an ASCII file would do) and I'll punch it out. With an address to ship to, one of those flat rate postal things would probably do the trick. The punch I have is a Facit 4070, with a custom interface adapter for a printer port. It works quite well. We can discuss prices (Look I'm reasonable!) off list. ...Tom Watson From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu May 28 04:19:05 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 02:19:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: law enforcement assistance w/paper tape In-Reply-To: <724629.41120.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <724629.41120.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 May 2009, Tom Watson wrote: > Steve... (and list) > > I may be the one who has a working paper tape punch. > > It still works, and I can create just about anything you desire. Just > let me know what you want (an ASCII file would do) and I'll punch it > out. With an address to ship to, one of those flat rate postal things > would probably do the trick. Flat rate postal thing? A few feet of tape could easily go regular first class. I use flat rate only when I'm doing something like shipping a transformer. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu May 28 04:35:42 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 10:35:42 +0100 Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) In-Reply-To: <07ea01c9df68$23c51080$35c219bb@desktaba> References: <4A1E2A6A.4050603@jetnet.ab.ca><073c01c9df5f$1ee8cbf0$35c219bb@desktaba> <4A1E3654.7040105@jetnet.ab.ca> <07ea01c9df68$23c51080$35c219bb@desktaba> Message-ID: <4A1E5AEE.90605@dunnington.plus.com> On 28/05/2009 08:44, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> New zip format default ... At least the PDF manual you still can read. >> The big thing you need is a serial port ... once you build the kit, >> you upload and flash in the software. > > One more software to install on my bloated computer :( Anyone willing > to do me a favour and send me a rar copy of the package? :) If that format referred to is what I think it is, it's bzip2. It's not zip encoding, but recent versions of WinZip handle it. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Thu May 28 05:39:48 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 11:39:48 +0100 Subject: IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0456ECE1-243E-4AF6-81C6-BEA5B7092BAE@microspot.co.uk> > Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 16:44:17 -0400 > From: William Donzelli > >> I found >> someone who could supply them for 100 dollars but he wanted a >> cheque from a >> US clearing bank which of course I can't do, and things went quiet >> when I >> asked about alternatives. > > If you get desperate for relays, and need to buy these "golden" ones, > I am sure someone on this list in the USA can act as an agent for you. > Contact me offlist if you get to this point. Same with getting US > electrical supplies. > > Sorry, I have no spare relays. I need every one I can get my hands on. > I probably have about 800 sockets in my collection, and they are not > all filled. Thank you for your kind offer, though I must point out that the 100 dollars was not for relays, it was for circuit diagrams for the IBM 836, the top of the range version of the 026 keypunch. I have some spare relays from a card verifier. In case anyone here is too young to know what I'm talking about, most data to be input on cards to a mainframe was punched back in those sexist days by one of the girls in the data preparation department on a key punch machine which has a keyboard and punches holes into pieces of card. The cards were then given to a different girl who fed them through a machine called a VERIFIER. She would also type the data on a keyboard and the machine would compare what she typed to what was on the card. If there was a miss-match, a red light would come on and a notch cut in the top of the card. The data would then be checked against the original, maybe by a supervisor, though I was never familiar with the internal workings of any commercial DP department, and the either the faulty card corrected or the mistake of the verifier operator ignored. Today of course no checking of input data is done, mistakes just go through until either a customer complains 15 times via a call centre in India and eventually gets through to a manager who will listen and correct it, or the customer runs off with a million dollars which has been paid into his account in error, not to be heard of until he's spent it all and then goes bankrupt. Not that I'm complaining, verifying cards all day must have been a soul destroying job I would not wish on my worst enemy. I always got the impression the DP girls were just filling in the time until they could become housewives and mothers, which I imagine is much more rewarding than DP, and useful to humankind than sitting at a verifier and turning off the brain. Before any lady list members comment, that was then, this is now, I was brought up in the 50s, am a dinosaur and likely to remain a bachelor dinosaur, my only regret is not being able to personally extend my family tree, which I have left to my brothers and my sister, who have made me an uncle, great uncle and recently a great great uncle, and I'm only 56 so maybe time to add another 'great' before I die. Wandering off topic I'm afraid. Thanks to everyone's help and advice with the 110v sockets, and yes I did mean sockets when I meant plugs in one particular e-mail. I am currently (no pun intended) looking into prices of small static inverters (and UPSs, some of which seems be also able to do frequency conversion, think battery charger and inverter) so I can keep the keypunch standard if possible. I think a good quality power strip screwed to the wall is probably the easiest solution to the socket problem, as I don't want wandering sockets for visitors to trip over and I can't be bothered learning about how US 'receptacles' attach to the back of their boxes instead of being screwed to the front as is normal in the UK. Life's too short and I've got to write a program to read data from old paper tapes into my Mac so I can recover some data for the ICT/ICL 1900 preservation group. Roger Holmes Technical Director, Microspot Ltd Half of the ICT 1301 restoration group of the Computer Conservation Society. Author of MacPlot, MacPalette, 3DWorld, Microspot Interiors and also responsible for maintaining MacDraft and all other Microspot products. Oh, and I have 7 classic cars to look after/restore/enjoy too, and hold a classic car/computer show at my home once a year, 12th July based on the theme of a TV show which was filmed on the 35 acre farm, which launched the career of Catherine Zeta Jones, called 'The Darling Budss of May'. Oh and I have a disabled 86 year old mother to look after now my father has died a couple of weeks after their 67th wedding anniversary. Like I said, life is too short. From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Thu May 28 05:48:39 2009 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 06:48:39 -0400 Subject: when soldering irons go bad Message-ID: <20090528104839.80306BA516B@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> David Griffith asks: > One reason I never graduated to /real/ soldering stations is > that I kept wondering "what do I do when it goes bad?". What > do you guys recommend? I really really like the Weller WTCPT line of soldering stations. There is very little "smarts" in the soldering station. Temperature control is supplied via a purely magnetic-electro-mechanical feedback loop - when the tip reaches a certain temperature, a special alloy in the base of the tip becomes non-magnetic (Curie point) and the heating circuit opens. When it cools down below the Curie point, the heating circuit closes. Different tips are available with different temperatures. I like these soldering stations purely out of inertia - I've been using them for decades. I don't think they're nearly as good for, say, extensive surface mount rework as a Metcal station that costs 10 to 20 times as much. But they do just wonderful for my uses, working on everything from vacuum-tube electronics to DIP circuit boards to some surface mount stuff. Different tips are available; I love the big fat tips for working with vacuum tube electronics because with them the WTCPT is the equivalent of a 100 watt soldering gun, even those big fat joints heat up real fast. For finer detail stuff I sometimes switch to finer tipped points on the WTCPT but very often I find myself using the big fat tips just because I'm so used to them. I am one of those rare guys who do not use super skinny solder with super skinny tips to do real-fine pitch soldering. In some rare circumstances - 0.25mm pitch SMD - I will switch to the finer tip. But more often than not I'll just stick to the humongous fat tips and big old fat 0.063" thick solder. One of the reasons I stick with the big fat tip, is that with 0.25mm pitch SMD stuff I find that the big fat tip will simultaneously heat up all the pins on one side of a chip :-). Why do I not recommend them for extensive surface mount stuff? Because the magnetic tip has this annoying tendency to suck up any 0603 or 0402 or 0201 SMD parts which have any steel component in them. For extensive surface mount stuff a non-magnetic tip would probably be nicer. The WTCPT's are dead-bone stupid - no digital display to mess up; no knob to twist for different temperature; no thermistor; cord is unmeltable. All of mine are between 10 and 30 years old - I bought myself a brand new one once, the others I got with a decade or two of use already on them. The WTCPT's one weak point is the connection from the iron to the soldering iron station base (which has little more than a transformer in it.) This is a plastic plug/jack that can break under extreme abuse. I've collected a couple WTCPT's over the years with a broken plastic plug or jack, and fixed them by simply soldering the wiring straight through without a jack. Tim. From thypope at gmail.com Thu May 28 05:58:58 2009 From: thypope at gmail.com (Alexandru Lovin) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 13:58:58 +0300 Subject: Making vintage computers In-Reply-To: References: <4A1DB2A2.6000505@stillhq.com> <4A1DC45E.1000208@stillhq.com> Message-ID: Sorry! I meant HyperTransport! Yes, I know HyperThreading is a feature present in Pentium 4 CPUs and the new i7 as well. The result is, as far as I could see, a single CPU being reported as two in Windows' Device Manager. Of course multithreaded apps were much happier on such computers than on regular single cores. At the time I was curious to see if Extreme Edition Pentium D (the only ones multi-core with HyperThreading at the time) were reported as four CPUs (dual core with HyperThreading). Also, the new i7 CPUs should be reported as eight, as far as I could understand. Yep, I mistake these two all the time. Like my brain refuses to say "Threading" after "Hyper" when reffering to computer processor technologies. But now that you mention it, the man said that if you take out this and that from HyperTransport, you end up with NUMA. I was saying all right, the 286 and before that would get expanded memory as the link within the cluster, but after that (386 and newer) I'd go for a bus (like HyperTransport) connected to the single system northbridge, synchronizing the processors (because some of them weren't made for multi-CPU configurations, like the K6-III+). And as far as I remember he said both ways to make multi-CPU systems are NUMA. I can't quite understand what that man is telling me. He has a communication problem that manifests itself in both verbal and written communication. As such, I couldn't fully understand what he says, at least not always. On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 6:30 AM, Ian King wrote: > > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On > Behalf Of Alexandru Lovin [thypope at gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 6:25 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Making vintage computers > > [snip] > > Oh God, thank you for my expert friend from Australia! Yes, Sir, he told me > how. Basically the 286 would use hardware expanded memory as the link > within > a cluster of sixteen motherboards (out of which fifteen are identical, just > the CPU, RAM and chipset as far as I understood it, the last one having all > the other chips - graphics, sound, etc.) and the cluster would work as a > single, multi-CPU computer. Now, when it comes to the 386 and onwards, > these can address 4 GB of RAM. I wouldn't put 16 mobos in one cluster > with each of them having 4 GB of RAM. Instead, the northbridge would > probably be connected to a custom bus syncing all the CPUs. Something along > the lines of HyperThreading, which he said is something similar to non > uniform memory addressing. The point is, use the same amount of RAM for all > the CPUs. Like the difference between regular multi-CPU systems and regular > multi-core CPU systems. You probably know multi-CPU systems have their > memory "per-CPU" while the cores inside a multi-core CPU all use the same > system RAM. > > Sorry, hyperthreading (aka SMT) is NOTHING like non-uniform memory > addressing (NUMA). Hyperthreading is an architecture where additional > program counters and registers can access the same functional units (e.g. > ALU) to exploit thread-level parallelism, while the traditional superscalar > architecture exploits instruction-level parallelism. > > With the architecture you describe, it seems like a cache-coherent NUMA. > BTW, multi-CPU vs. multicore isn't that much different, except that it's > less hardware for multicore systems to share the memory interface - each one > has its own cache, with traditional protocols to avoid sequential > incoherency (i.e. a different result from multiple CPUs processing an > instruction stream as opposed to one CPU). -- Ian -- Alex Lovin - www.erasereality.3x.ro From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 28 06:58:53 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 06:58:53 -0500 Subject: receptacles (was IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived) In-Reply-To: References: <4A1C677C.6040607@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090528065800.03d2c598@mail.threedee.com> At 02:23 PM 5/27/2009, Tony Duell wrote: >110V AC supplies are not uncommon in the UK. The reason is that >industrial portable power tools (electric drills, etc) are 110V, [...] >The transformers are normally in bright yellow plastic boxes (yellow >being the colour associated with 110V on connectors, etc), and are rated >at about 3kVA (there are much larger ones, that's the smallest you'll >easily find). They're not cheap, but an awful lot of hacker-types will >have one. Interesting! I had no idea. So this is how they'll run US classic computers? - John From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu May 28 07:29:08 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 14:29:08 +0200 Subject: receptacles (was IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived) In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20090528065800.03d2c598@mail.threedee.com> References: <4A1C677C.6040607@brouhaha.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20090528065800.03d2c598@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: Strange fellows those Brittans, free after Obelix. (The creator of the Menhirs in France, see the Asterix comics) The rest of Europe is using 42-50V AC for safety tools, and they assume 110V DC as the highest save DC voltage. Long live Brussels ;-) > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens John Foust > Verzonden: donderdag 28 mei 2009 13:59 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: receptacles (was IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived) > > At 02:23 PM 5/27/2009, Tony Duell wrote: > >110V AC supplies are not uncommon in the UK. The reason is that > >industrial portable power tools (electric drills, etc) are > 110V, [...] > >The transformers are normally in bright yellow plastic boxes (yellow > >being the colour associated with 110V on connectors, etc), and are > >rated at about 3kVA (there are much larger ones, that's the > smallest > >you'll easily find). They're not cheap, but an awful lot of > >hacker-types will have one. > > Interesting! I had no idea. So this is how they'll run US > classic computers? > No we just put them on 230V most of the time, after of cause we changed the jumpers ;-) > - John > > -Rik From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 28 07:40:54 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 08:40:54 -0400 Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3DB4F56C-16E6-4211-8389-0A9696ED354B@neurotica.com> On May 28, 2009, at 4:21 AM, David Griffith wrote: > Tonight I had one of those I-gotta-tinker moments at midnight. I > had the Atari 2600 laid open, ready to accept the AV mod board I > finished up a couple days ago. I plugged in the soldering iron and > poured a capful of water from a bottle into the sponge. After > about ten minutes, I picked up the iron and poked it at the > sponge. No sizzle. Dink around with the cord and shank. No > heat. Ah. This is the iron that I lent to someone who put melty > marks in the cord. I guess it's dead. There went another > disposable soldering iron. Ugh! Don't buy those crappy disposable irons. Quality tools are important. > One reason I never graduated to /real/ soldering stations is that I > kept wondering "what do I do when it goes bad?". What do you guys > recommend? They generally don't go bad. I've had my Metcal for ten years...I did low-volume commercial assembly with it for a while; I've probably soldered a thousand PCBs with it, mostly surface mount. It was used when I got it. It replaced a Weller WTCPT (I second Tim's recommendation) that was easily twenty years old when I got it, and I used it for another fifteen. Another thing about real soldering equipment. Once you use a temperature-controlled iron, you'll never go back to one that isn't. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 28 07:58:09 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 08:58:09 -0400 Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 4:21 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > Tonight I had one of those I-gotta-tinker moments at midnight.... > ... No heat....?I guess it's dead. ?There went another disposable > soldering iron. > > One reason I never graduated to /real/ soldering stations is that I kept > wondering "what do I do when it goes bad?". ?What do you guys recommend? Personally, I have several Weller soldering stations I've gotten for free from former employers - some because of upgrades, some because they didn't work and the company didn't want to "fuss" with fixing them. I fuss. I have replaced heating elements and temp sensors, mostly, though one or two could probably use a new cord because the strain relief isn't as robust as when it was new (25 years ago). Wellers are easy to get parts for. I tend to pick up what I need at events like the Mansfield Hamfest, but they can be mail-ordered, too. Diagnosis and repair is somewhat simple - put a known-working iron on the base (helps if you have more than one ;-), and so far, it's always been the iron that was faulty, then test the sensor then the heating element. I did have one that had both defective, but usually it's one or the other. Mostly, though, they work for decades unless mishandled. -ethan From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu May 28 08:04:02 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 06:04:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: when soldering irons go bad Message-ID: <165843.55396.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 5/28/09, Tim Shoppa wrote: > I've collected a couple WTCPT's over the years with a > broken plastic > plug or jack, and fixed them by simply soldering the wiring > straight > through without a jack. So, how exactly did you solder that connection to repair the faulty soldering station again? *ducks* -Ian From drb at msu.edu Thu May 28 08:11:36 2009 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 09:11:36 -0400 Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 28 May 2009 01:21:28 PDT.) References: Message-ID: <200905281311.n4SDBa0K020674@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > One reason I never graduated to /real/ soldering stations is that I kept > wondering "what do I do when it goes bad?". What do you guys recommend? I can't count all the defunct floppy-catenary-shaped rusted-tip ratshack irons or the 30-40 watt basic Weller irons that went through my hands before I finally got the hint. Real soldering stations provide several advantages to me: 1. Temperature control -- quit charring your flux, the board, etc. 2. Power -- you can put a 90-100 watt heating element in the tip if you have temperature control, because now you aren't just turning on the element and hitting equilibrium at 950F. When you need to solder 8 gauge wire, you used to reach for the monster 100W stained-glass iron. Now you may not have to. 3. FAST warmup. My Hakko goes from off to ready in 30 seconds or so. (I hate waiting for the iron to warm up.) It also cools down faster. 4. Much better construction quality. I got whacked with a clue stick by a friend who bought a refurbished Hakko 939 from EAE Sales. He convinced me of the above advantages, and I bought an identical one. It's completely changed the way I solder. I'd suggest a station with lots of wattage and variable temperature control, though the digital readout isn't strictly necessary. Testimonial: Bruce at EAE is a great guy, and Knows His Stuff. He sells refurbished (by himself, and by the factory) gear as well as new. De From bob at jfcl.com Thu May 28 08:36:36 2009 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 06:36:36 -0700 Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) In-Reply-To: <4A1E2A6A.4050603@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4A1E2A6A.4050603@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <003101c9df99$52b6ecc0$f824c640$@com> >bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >... >> Just curious... What is the VT-6 kit ? > ... low cost dumb terminal .... Dumb !!??!?! Who are you calling dumb ??? :-) Not so dumb, really - the software team did a great job and the current firmware does pretty much everything a real VT220 can do. Bob From bob at jfcl.com Thu May 28 08:43:46 2009 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 06:43:46 -0700 Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) In-Reply-To: <4A1E110F.2030906@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <016101c9df4a$4492b8d0$c900a8c0@JWEST> <4A1E110F.2030906@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <003801c9df9a$52f1dd70$f8d59850$@com> >bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca] wrote: >>Jay West wrote: >> >> I'm holding out for the VT-5, I'd definitely prefer that one :) >> >That could be a while ... The VT5 hardware is mostly done - the design has been set for a while, and the PCB just needs a final turn. The firmware is the limiting factor here, and poor James is working as fast as he can. It _is_ an open source project, you guys, and he could use help if anybody wants to speed it up. http://vt4.sourceforge.net Bob From bob at jfcl.com Thu May 28 08:46:20 2009 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 06:46:20 -0700 Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) In-Reply-To: <06d601c9df54$97ee8d10$35c219bb@desktaba> References: <4A1E0237.1010506@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A1E0D34.7020508@jetnet.ab.ca> <06d601c9df54$97ee8d10$35c219bb@desktaba> Message-ID: <003901c9df9a$af15d110$0d417330$@com> >Alexandre Souza [alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br] wrote: > > Get an old macintosh and gut it with your SBC6120 :) Now that would be really neat, especially if you could get the original keyboard and monitor to work too. Maybe somebody could make a retro modification kit for this - I'd buy one. Bob From bob at jfcl.com Thu May 28 08:54:33 2009 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 06:54:33 -0700 Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) In-Reply-To: <4A1E25A4.30701@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4A1E0237.1010506@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A1E0D34.7020508@jetnet.ab.ca> <06d601c9df54$97ee8d10$35c219bb@desktaba> <4A1E25A4.30701@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <003a01c9df9b$d4eebb30$7ecc3190$@com> >bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > > ... VT6 ... >PPS ... Now why did he not design it to use a 9 volt AC wart ... Well you might be able to use an AC wall wart - the reverse polarity protection diode will serve as a half wave rectifier, but you'll probably want a bigger filter cap than the one that's already on there. Just make sure the trough of the ripple stays above 8V so that the 7805 doesn't lose regulation. And you can of course use a 12V (DC that is) wall wart, but just watch the temperature of the 7805. A heat sink would help a lot, but there's not much room for one. Bob From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu May 28 09:07:57 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 10:07:57 -0400 Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: <200905281311.n4SDBa0K020674@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <200905281311.n4SDBa0K020674@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <200905281007.57248.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 28 May 2009, Dennis Boone wrote: > > One reason I never graduated to /real/ soldering stations is that > > I kept wondering "what do I do when it goes bad?". What do you > > guys recommend? > > I can't count all the defunct floppy-catenary-shaped rusted-tip > ratshack irons or the 30-40 watt basic Weller irons that went through > my hands before I finally got the hint. Though I've never actually had a Rat Shack cheapo iron go bad (probably just luck, or the fact that I don't really use them that much), I'm much happier with my temperature controlled one. I picked up an Xytronic XY9-60, which I'm pretty happy with. It has an LED-display temperature readout, and only set me back a little over $100 through All Electronics, I think. They don't seem to have it anymore, but I'm sure you could find another one.. > 2. Power -- you can put a 90-100 watt heating element in the tip if > you have temperature control, because now you aren't just turning on > the element and hitting equilibrium at 950F. When you need to solder > 8 gauge wire, you used to reach for the monster 100W stained-glass > iron. Now you may not have to. FWIW, I have discovered that it's easier (given sufficient clearance) to use a MAPP-gas torch to solder large wires. 6AWG is the biggest that I've dealt with so far. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From feedle at feedle.net Thu May 28 09:08:05 2009 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 07:08:05 -0700 Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <60DBB9CE-B8D7-428C-A598-23158BC13A5C@feedle.net> On May 28, 2009, at 1:21 AM, David Griffith wrote: > One reason I never graduated to /real/ soldering stations is that I > kept wondering "what do I do when it goes bad?". What do you guys > recommend? FWIW, I have a Weller soldering station, and it has performed flawlessly for 15 years. I had to replace the tip once, I think. I also have one of the Radio Shack "stations", and it similarly has had no issues over the years. Cheap pencils are just that: cheap pencils. Like the wooden ones you write with, they have a limited service life, and once they get used down to the nub, you throw them away. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu May 28 09:13:51 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 07:13:51 -0700 Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: <20090528104839.80306BA516B@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20090528104839.80306BA516B@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com > > David Griffith asks: > Why do I not recommend them for extensive surface mount stuff? Because > the magnetic tip has this annoying tendency to suck up any 0603 or 0402 > or 0201 SMD parts which have any steel component in them. For extensive > surface mount stuff a non-magnetic tip would probably be nicer. > Hi I like these irons as well. There is one other issue with the megnetic tip that I keep a cheap iron around for. Read relays. I found that they often take a little megnatization form the iron. I've not had troubles with the DIP type but the ones with the open wire coming from the glass reed. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd1_052009 From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu May 28 09:25:24 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 07:25:24 -0700 Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: <3DB4F56C-16E6-4211-8389-0A9696ED354B@neurotica.com> References: <3DB4F56C-16E6-4211-8389-0A9696ED354B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: At 8:40 AM -0400 5/28/09, Dave McGuire wrote: > Ugh! Don't buy those crappy disposable irons. Quality tools are important. I couldn't agree more. I typically buy at least a bit more quality than I need when I buy tools. I did it with my electronic's stuff (a lot of what I bought was being sold for jewelry work), and now I'm doing it as I buy stuff for the house. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu May 28 09:26:53 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 07:26:53 -0700 Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) In-Reply-To: <003901c9df9a$af15d110$0d417330$@com> References: <4A1E0237.1010506@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A1E0D34.7020508@jetnet.ab.ca> <06d601c9df54$97ee8d10$35c219bb@desktaba> <003901c9df9a$af15d110$0d417330$@com> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > From: bob at jfcl.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) > Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 06:46:20 -0700 > >>Alexandre Souza [alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br] wrote: >> >> Get an old macintosh and gut it with your SBC6120 :) > > Now that would be really neat, especially if you could get the original > keyboard and monitor to work too. Maybe somebody could make a retro > modification kit for this - I'd buy one. > > Bob > Hi I still prefer using a laptop and a ternimal emulator. It leaves me the option of dumping or uploading files to disk. Sometimes I just want to log what I've been doing. It is a little more difficult as the newer laptops don't have serial ports and the os doesn't allow direct access to the prots. Still many older laptops will boot a dos disk. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd1_052009 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 28 09:48:46 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 10:48:46 -0400 Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) In-Reply-To: References: <4A1E0237.1010506@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A1E0D34.7020508@jetnet.ab.ca> <06d601c9df54$97ee8d10$35c219bb@desktaba> <003901c9df9a$af15d110$0d417330$@com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 10:26 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > ?I still prefer using a laptop and a ternimal emulator. > It leaves me the option of dumping or uploading files > to disk. Sometimes I just want to log what I've been > doing. If I'm importing text or trying to completely copy a session, I tend towards laptops, but I've run into the occasional VT100-emulation issue with PC-based terminal programs that I've never had using a real terminal. As for size, the VT-6 is more portable than a laptop if you have a keyboard and monitor at your destination. Previously, my Planar ELT-320 has been great - it's a small (well under 10") electroluminescent screen (thus the "ELT") that has keyboard jacks for DEC LK series *and* PC-AT/PS/2 along with MMJ *and* DE-9 serial connectors. They aren't all that common (I've only ever run across a few for sale), but great when you can find them. For me, portability is somewhat important, but compatibility is much more so. If it doesn't render emacs properly (a real problem I've had with xterm and klh10) or the VTEDIT TECO Macro on OS/8 (a real problem I've had with a real DEC VT220 in VT52 mode), the size, the weight or other factors just aren't important. My solution in each of the above cases was to use a genuine terminal because when I plugged it in, it just worked. > ?It is a little more difficult as the newer laptops don't > have serial ports and the os doesn't allow direct access > to the prots. Indeed. I'm not happy with the shift in what hardware resources are on "modern" machines, but given that I use a parallel port as 8+ bits of general-purpose I/O (I don't remember the last time I put a printer on one ;-), I've come to expect that what I want and what the masses want only intersect slightly (and that's why I don't have a "new" laptop). > Still many older laptops will boot a dos disk. I have a Zenith 8-bit laptop I've posted about before - it cost me $15 with a carrying case, it has two pop-up low-density 3.5" floppies and no hard drive. I have a boot disk in it with DOS 3.3 and Kermit. I also have a Xircom PE-3 on its parallel port and the packet drivers, so I can use DOS Kermit either over the serial port or over a 10BaseT connection. It's not a fast machine, but it's only doing one thing. One long-outstanding project is to get some C-sized NiCads with solder-tabs to rebuild the battery pack, but it works fine on wall power and I haven't had to do anything but plug it in and boot it up since I got it. These days, something like a Dell Latitude CP-series machine is free or nearly so (but the battery packs are probably dead), and with 64MB-256MB, a built-in serial port, PCMCIA slots, etc., etc., it would make a fine inexpensive dedicated terminal device. Just watch out for broken lids (the hinges are stronger than the plastic the case is made out of). With "that much" power, you aren't limited to DOS... I still have one of these running RedHat9 and it does great. The only real limitation is how much physical memory you can (or can't) stuff in there. -ethan From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu May 28 09:57:54 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 10:57:54 -0400 Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) In-Reply-To: References: <003901c9df9a$af15d110$0d417330$@com> Message-ID: <200905281057.54581.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 28 May 2009, dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > I still prefer using a laptop and a ternimal emulator. > It leaves me the option of dumping or uploading files > to disk. Sometimes I just want to log what I've been > doing. > It is a little more difficult as the newer laptops don't > have serial ports and the os doesn't allow direct access > to the prots. Still many older laptops will boot a dos > disk. Even Dell still sells one or two models with a physical serial port, and it's pretty easy to find a laptop that'll boot an OS that has a USB stack these days. It's also nice to have something with a decent tcp/ip stack, to scp the logged console output around (or files to Xmodem transfer to/from the device you're connected to). The problem, of course, is finding terminal emulation software that'll emulate weird terminal types (non VT100/ANSI emulation). That's what I see Bob's VT-6 thing as being useful (though I'd prefer just having a POSIX / ANSI C (or Perl, Python, Java, C++, etc) implementation myself, which I can run under the OS of my choice). Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ploopster at gmail.com Thu May 28 10:07:37 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 11:07:37 -0400 Subject: Editors In-Reply-To: <4A1ADF75.3040103@softjar.se> References: <4A1ADF75.3040103@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4A1EA8B9.8030006@gmail.com> Johnny Billquist wrote: >> NOOO Actually .. >> The real holy war is >> >> VI vs EMACS :-) > > Pfft. Both are for clueless newbies. The only editor is TECO. Anything > else can be implemented in TECO, if I really need it. > > With a half :-) One word. XEDIT. Peace... Sridhar From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 28 10:23:53 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 11:23:53 -0400 Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) In-Reply-To: <003901c9df9a$af15d110$0d417330$@com> References: <4A1E0237.1010506@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A1E0D34.7020508@jetnet.ab.ca> <06d601c9df54$97ee8d10$35c219bb@desktaba> <003901c9df9a$af15d110$0d417330$@com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 9:46 AM, Bob Armstrong wrote: >>Alexandre Souza [alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br] wrote: >> >> ? ?Get an old macintosh and gut it with your SBC6120 :) > > ?Now that would be really neat, especially if you could get the original > keyboard and monitor to work too. ?Maybe somebody could make a retro > modification kit for this - I'd buy one. One problem is that the video circuit for compact Macs is bizarre. The display circuit was optimized for square pixels at 72 dpi on the tube. Here's the stats of the Mac video circuit I was able to dredge up... Resolution........................................512 x 342 Horizontal scan rate..........................22.3KHZ, (4?s on, 40?s off) Vertical scan rate .............................60HZ (180?s on, 16.4ms off) Of course it could be hacked to accept something else, and the VT-6 display routine can be hacked, but I'm not qualified to estimate if there's enough overlap between what is needed to display 80x24 text and what the Macintosh video circuit can provide, but there's some excellent discussion and detailed schematics here: http://68kmla.net/files/classicmac2.pdf As for the keyboard, the original Mac keyboard (128K and 512K) lacks arrow keys, a control key, function keys and a keypad. The Mac Plus keyboard is less spartan, but still would present a challenge for an EDT user. I don't know anything about Mac keyboard protocols or signaling method, but with the modular-jack keyboards (pre-ADB), it's probably similar enough to what everyone else did (power, ground, either data+clock or bi-directional data over the 4 wires) that it shouldn't be too hard to reverse-engineer. If you could find an old 9" mono VGA monitor, that might be easy to physically adapt to an old Mac case, but I don't remember those being too common, even back when they were making them (since they were really only popular with hardcore DOS users). It'd be a cute hack, though. -ethan From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu May 28 10:26:18 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 16:26:18 +0100 Subject: receptacles (was IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived) In-Reply-To: References: <4A1C677C.6040607@brouhaha.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20090528065800.03d2c598@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <4A1EAD1A.7060407@dunnington.plus.com> On 28/05/2009 13:29, Rik Bos wrote: > Strange fellows those Brittans Britons :-) > free after Obelix. (The creator of the > Menhirs in France, see the Asterix comics) > The rest of Europe is using 42-50V AC for safety tools, and they assume 110V > DC as the highest save DC voltage. > Long live Brussels ;-) It's 55V max to ground, well within the limits :-) and it's AC not DC. An awful lot of tools are 18V/24V/36V DC cordless, of course. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From bob at jfcl.com Thu May 28 10:37:07 2009 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 08:37:07 -0700 Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) In-Reply-To: References: <4A1E0237.1010506@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A1E0D34.7020508@jetnet.ab.ca> <06d601c9df54$97ee8d10$35c219bb@desktaba> <003901c9df9a$af15d110$0d417330$@com> Message-ID: <006701c9dfaa$2901fbc0$7b05f340$@com> >Ethan Dicks [mailto:ethan.dicks at gmail.com] > >If you could find an old 9" mono VGA monitor, that might be easy to >physically adapt to an old Mac case, but I don't remember those being >too common, even back when they were making them (since they were >really only popular with hardcore DOS users). 9" mono VGA monitors were at one time common on POS ("Point of Sale") terminals (i.e. cash registers) that were really nothing more than a disguised PC. I often find them at surplus places, although the supply does seem to be drying up. Bob From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu May 28 10:37:56 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 16:37:56 +0100 Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: <3DB4F56C-16E6-4211-8389-0A9696ED354B@neurotica.com> References: <3DB4F56C-16E6-4211-8389-0A9696ED354B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A1EAFD4.8070709@dunnington.plus.com> On 28/05/2009 13:40, Dave McGuire wrote: >> One reason I never graduated to /real/ soldering stations is that I >> kept wondering "what do I do when it goes bad?". What do you guys >> recommend? I kept my two Oryx temperature-controlled irons for that. One is in the cupboard above the bench, the other is in a small toolkit in the car. I used to carry that to all sorts of places, and once (many years ago) was stopped by security at a UK airport. "What's this substance, sir?" He was indicating the soggy sponge in the plastic bag beside the soldering iron :-) My current bench station is a Weller WD2 microprocessor-controlled unit with a WSP80 iron that takes a wide range of LT tips and other accessories. A birthday present a couple of years ago :-) I second Tim (and others) in recommending Weller. I still have my big and ancient Weller soldering gun for DEC power supplies, though. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu May 28 10:42:22 2009 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 11:42:22 -0400 Subject: An ebay bargain (I hope!) Message-ID: After negotiations with the finance committee (aka wife), I bid on and to my surprise won this lot: 390053617609. It's a Fluke 9010A for those that don't want to bother to surf it and I got it for $66.56. That's right, 66 bucks and change. Pictures show it boots. So, now I have to get pods of interest (anybody have a spare 6502, 8080 or Z80?) and read the manuals. Is there anything interesting you can do with one without pods? Thanks, Bill Sudbrink From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu May 28 11:06:01 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 09:06:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) In-Reply-To: <006701c9dfaa$2901fbc0$7b05f340$@com> References: <4A1E0237.1010506@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A1E0D34.7020508@jetnet.ab.ca> <06d601c9df54$97ee8d10$35c219bb@desktaba> <003901c9df9a$af15d110$0d417330$@com> <006701c9dfaa$2901fbc0$7b05f340$@com> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 May 2009, Bob Armstrong wrote: >> Ethan Dicks [mailto:ethan.dicks at gmail.com] >> >> If you could find an old 9" mono VGA monitor, that might be easy to >> physically adapt to an old Mac case, but I don't remember those being >> too common, even back when they were making them (since they were >> really only popular with hardcore DOS users). > > 9" mono VGA monitors were at one time common on POS ("Point of Sale") > terminals (i.e. cash registers) that were really nothing more than a > disguised PC. I often find them at surplus places, although the supply does > seem to be drying up. > I'd love to find a 7" color VGA display. Even a 7" LCD panel with a 4:3 aspect ratio would work. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu May 28 11:07:03 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 18:07:03 +0200 Subject: An ebay bargain (I hope!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Nop you can't do a thing without pods and software. And there is a big change the harddisk is bad (20Mb microscience with sasi interface)and you need the newest firmware because with that you upgrade to a scsi harddisk with a max of 350Mb. Manuals and the latest firmware are somewhere on the web, if you can't find them contact me off-list and I'll upload them. I bought one + a Fluke 9005 a few months ago with a lot of pods and software. I'll check the pods I own and from witch there are more then one. These Flukes are very popular with the game console boys. -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Bill Sudbrink > Verzonden: donderdag 28 mei 2009 17:42 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: An ebay bargain (I hope!) > > After negotiations with the finance committee (aka wife), I > bid on and to my surprise won this lot: 390053617609. > It's a Fluke 9010A for those that don't want to bother to > surf it and I got it for $66.56. That's right, 66 bucks and > change. Pictures show it boots. So, now I have to get pods > of interest (anybody have a spare 6502, 8080 or Z80?) and > read the manuals. Is there anything interesting you can do > with one without pods? > > Thanks, > Bill Sudbrink > > From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Thu May 28 11:14:43 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 17:14:43 +0100 Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <60D56115-8A67-46BD-B871-9B6ADA23BD98@microspot.co.uk> > > Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 11:23:53 -0400 > From: Ethan Dicks > > I don't know anything about Mac keyboard protocols or > signaling method, but with the modular-jack keyboards (pre-ADB), it's > probably similar enough to what everyone else did (power, ground, > either data+clock or bi-directional data over the 4 wires) that it > shouldn't be too hard to reverse-engineer. Yes, that's about it. I used a Motorola 68705 single chip micro as a dongle in the lead between the Mac and the keyboard. It just passed on packets from the keyboard to the Mac. The Mac never talked to the keyboard. My Application talked to the dongle and made sure it had the correct algorithm in it before allowing the user to continue. If anyone wants the protocol its probably in the source code which I have somewhere I think, though maybe on Lisa floppy disks (not Twiggy, I transferred all my data to more modern 360k 3.5 inch diskettes). Roger From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 28 11:18:12 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 12:18:12 -0400 Subject: An ebay bargain (I hope!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 12:07 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > Nop you can't do a thing without pods and software. > And there is a big change the harddisk is bad (20Mb microscience with sasi > interface)and you need the newest firmware because with that you upgrade to > a scsi harddisk with a max of 350Mb. What hard disk? I've had a 9010A for many years - it has a micro-cassette tape for loading and saving configs and such, but no disk. > I bought one + a Fluke 9005 a few months ago with a lot of pods and > software. I haven't seen a 9005... does that have a hard disk? -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 28 11:28:23 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 10:28:23 -0600 Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) In-Reply-To: References: <4A1E0237.1010506@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A1E0D34.7020508@jetnet.ab.ca> <06d601c9df54$97ee8d10$35c219bb@desktaba> <003901c9df9a$af15d110$0d417330$@com> Message-ID: <4A1EBBA7.3090808@jetnet.ab.ca> dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi > I still prefer using a laptop and a ternimal emulator. > It leaves me the option of dumping or uploading files > to disk. Sometimes I just want to log what I've been > doing. I tried that ... I find I need a full size keyboard and display. > It is a little more difficult as the newer laptops don't > have serial ports and the os doesn't allow direct access > to the prots. Still many older laptops will boot a dos > disk. You can still get a used one cheap. > Dwight Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 28 11:33:17 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 10:33:17 -0600 Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) In-Reply-To: <003101c9df99$52b6ecc0$f824c640$@com> References: <4A1E2A6A.4050603@jetnet.ab.ca> <003101c9df99$52b6ecc0$f824c640$@com> Message-ID: <4A1EBCCD.700@jetnet.ab.ca> Bob Armstrong wrote: > Not so dumb, really - the software team did a great job and the current > firmware does pretty much everything a real VT220 can do. So what can a real VT220 do ... runs and ducks. All I can say somebody read the 'cheap video cookbook' . I like the design, well thought out. > Bob Ben. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 28 11:33:23 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 12:33:23 -0400 Subject: An ebay bargain (I hope!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 11:42 AM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > After negotiations with the finance committee (aka wife), > I bid on and to my surprise won this lot: 390053617609. > It's a Fluke 9010A for those that don't want to bother > to surf it and I got it for $66.56. ?That's right, 66 > bucks and change. ?Pictures show it boots. ?So, now I > have to get pods of interest (anybody have a spare 6502, > 8080 or Z80?) and read the manuals. ?Is there anything > interesting you can do with one without pods? I have a 9010A and two pods (68000 and 6502). In my experience, people buy the pods and get a free 9010A in the box. I would personally consider finding pods for $50 each to be a great price, but $75 and up to be a more ordinary price. You could look over the service manual (PDFs pointed to from ) and see if there's anything interesting in there, but there probably isn't much you can do if you are podless - maybe test internal memory or the tape drive and such. They are great devices, but the value is in having a pod matched to your target system. I first used mine with its 68000 pod in 1984 when it was owned by my employer. It was one of the things I made sure to rescue when the company closed. It was only a few years ago that picked up second pod (and I'm pretty sure the seller is/was on this list). I've been half-heartedly looking for a Z-80 pod for about 3-4 years, but haven't needed one badly enough to spend what it will probably cost to get one. When you get a pod, do yourself a favor and get a stack of machined-pin sockets to match. We broke numerous pins on the sockets, but never broke a pin on the pod. Typically, we had a stack of 3-4 sockets, both for overhead clearance and for sacrificial pins. We *never* removed the lower socket from the pod, in part because there was always at least one more socket below that to take the mechanical stress of installation/deinstallation several times per day (we used this Fluke for production testing of every one of our boards before plugging it into a PDP-11 or VAX). -ethan From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 28 11:36:51 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 16:36:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) Message-ID: <845595.7107.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> I'm not sure what the differences, if any, there are between the Dell Latitude CP and Latitude C is but I do like my Latitude C610. The battery originally lasted 40 minutes when I got it 2 years (and 3 months) ago. Now it lasts about 3 minutes! Just enough for Windows 2K SP4 to boot and show me the low power icon :) I did get a replacement battery, but it looks very dodgy - unofficial label, no manufacturer markings etc. and the power ratings are slightly different to the official battery. Mine has 2 PCMCIA connectors, but I don't have anything to use them with :( Anyway, the real reason I replied is that the PS/2 connection that I use my mouse with is dodgy. Sometimes if I tuck on the mouse cord (sometimes when I just move the mouse!) a little too much Windows stops moving the mouse pointer (I have disabled the touchpad as I hate it, plus I had mouse drift). My current fix is to simply reboot my laptop, which can be a pain. Is there a quick fix, or do I have to replace the whole PS/2 connector? I do have a compressed file of a sort of technical manual... which isn't all that technical. When I increased my memory (from 256MB to 768MB) a while back the "technical manual" didn't even specify the type of memory required! Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Thu, 28/5/09, Ethan Dicks wrote: These days, something like a Dell Latitude CP-series machine is free or nearly so (but the battery packs are probably dead), and with 64MB-256MB, a built-in serial port, PCMCIA slots, etc., etc., it would make a fine inexpensive dedicated terminal device.? Just watch out for broken lids (the hinges are stronger than the plastic the case is made out of). With "that much" power, you aren't limited to DOS... I still have one of these running RedHat9 and it does great.? The only real limitation is how much physical memory you can (or can't) stuff in there. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 28 11:59:27 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 09:59:27 -0700 Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: <60DBB9CE-B8D7-428C-A598-23158BC13A5C@feedle.net> References: , <60DBB9CE-B8D7-428C-A598-23158BC13A5C@feedle.net> Message-ID: <4A1E607F.16766.33BFD9B5@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 May 2009 at 7:08, C. Sullivan wrote: > FWIW, I have a Weller soldering station, and it has performed > flawlessly for 15 years. I had to replace the tip once, I think. My Weller WTCP has done well for more than 30 years. I've had to replace the cord once (I slammed a desk drawer on it); otherwise, no problems other than the sponge tray corroding (wire brush prime and paint). Parts are easy to find--and I've got a grocery bag full of various tips that I bought for something like $0.15 each when Sunnyvale Electronics went out of business (that'll date me). --Chuck From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu May 28 12:06:19 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 19:06:19 +0200 Subject: An ebay bargain (I hope!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <290F9D498C6F48A6950BE133EEBA16E0@xp1800> Sorry my fault, I was confused I own a Fluke 9100A and a 9105A where the 9100 has the harddisk and the 9105A not. For those machines I got the pods, docs and the firm- and software files. I do have somewhere a 9010 logicprobe. -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Ethan Dicks > Verzonden: donderdag 28 mei 2009 18:18 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: An ebay bargain (I hope!) > > On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 12:07 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > > Nop you can't do a thing without pods and software. > > And there is a big change the harddisk is bad (20Mb > microscience with > > sasi interface)and you need the newest firmware because > with that you > > upgrade to a scsi harddisk with a max of 350Mb. > > What hard disk? I've had a 9010A for many years - it has a > micro-cassette tape for loading and saving configs and such, > but no disk. > > > I bought one + a Fluke 9005 a few months ago with a lot of pods and > > software. > > I haven't seen a 9005... does that have a hard disk? > > -ethan > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 28 13:45:43 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 19:45:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: receptacles (was IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived) In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20090528065800.03d2c598@mail.threedee.com> from "John Foust" at May 28, 9 06:58:53 am Message-ID: > > At 02:23 PM 5/27/2009, Tony Duell wrote: > >110V AC supplies are not uncommon in the UK. The reason is that > >industrial portable power tools (electric drills, etc) are 110V, [...] > >The transformers are normally in bright yellow plastic boxes (yellow > >being the colour associated with 110V on connectors, etc), and are rated > >at about 3kVA (there are much larger ones, that's the smallest you'll > >easily find). They're not cheap, but an awful lot of hacker-types will > >have one. > > Interesting! I had no idea. So this is how they'll run US classic > computers? Indeed. I have a cable with a suitable plug on one end to fit the transformer (It's normally called a 'BS4343 plug' over here after the British Standard that refers to it , there is a CEN number, but I can't rememebr it :-)) and a US cable-mount socket on the other. Very useful for running US stuff. It's not _quite_ the same as US mains. For one thing it's 50Hz, of course. And for another it's centre-tapped to earth, not one side earthed. But it'll run a lot of US stuff, at least for testing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 28 13:24:43 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 19:24:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone interested in an Amstrad PCW? In-Reply-To: <4A1DBA3C.5070608@gifford.co.uk> from "John Honniball" at May 27, 9 11:10:04 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > Related to that (in that it's in the same service manual) is the GX4000 > > which seems to be a cartridge-based games console. > > I saw one of those last week in a charity shop. It's a beige You're lucky. Charity shops round here never sell mains-powered stuff, and often don't even sell battery-powered calculators, etc. > plasitc box with two game controllers attached. Presumably > electronically similar to the CPC464 and CPC664. It's closer (as in almost indentical) to the CPC464 Plus. It has the later ULA chip (with the 4096 hardware colours), and from what I can see no internal ROM. The CPC464 Pluse (and CPC6128 Plus) don't appear to have internal ROM eiother (unless there's a small bootstrap in the ULA chip, as in the PCW series). According to the service manual. the CPC464 Plus came with a 128K ROM cartridge containing BASIC and a 'Burning Rubber Game'. The GX4000 came with a 128K ROM cartridge contianing the 'Burning Rubber Game'. My guess is that it's the same cartridge, but the keyboard lines on the ULA are hard-wired to sleect the game at power-on (there is some evidence of this on the schematic). I wonder if you could hack the machine a bit, add a matrix of switches as a keyboard and run it as a CPC464 Plus? One featuer it has that the CPCs don't is a PAL video encoder and a SCART socket. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 28 13:53:26 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 19:53:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: <165843.55396.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> from "Mr Ian Primus" at May 28, 9 06:04:02 am Message-ID: > > > --- On Thu, 5/28/09, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > I've collected a couple WTCPT's over the years with a > > broken plastic > > plug or jack, and fixed them by simply soldering the wiring > > straight > > through without a jack. FWIWm that was a standard connector over here at one time. Made by Bulgin IIRC< and used (amaszingly) for mains. It's not longer approved for mains use (since you can unscrew the cap without using a tool and touch live parts), but they're still very easy to find and not expensive. > > So, how exactly did you solder that connection to repair the faulty > soldering station again? Is thins like 'how do you test the valves in the valve tester' :-) The answer, at least in my case, is a 'spare' iron (I keep) and some way of powering it (bench supply, for example). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 28 13:50:15 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 19:50:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: <3DB4F56C-16E6-4211-8389-0A9696ED354B@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at May 28, 9 08:40:54 am Message-ID: > Ugh! Don't buy those crappy disposable irons. Quality tools are > important. As I've said many times 'I am not rich enough to buy cheap tools' :-) > > > One reason I never graduated to /real/ soldering stations is that I > > kept wondering "what do I do when it goes bad?". What do you guys > > recommend? > > They generally don't go bad. I've had my Metcal for ten years...I > did low-volume commercial assembly with it for a while; I've probably > soldered a thousand PCBs with it, mostly surface mount. It was used > when I got it. > > It replaced a Weller WTCPT (I second Tim's recommendation) that And I'm another one who uses them. Simple, easy to repair (not that they need it very often) and are great on juat about everything I work on (I don't do mcuh high-density SMD stuff. > was easily twenty years old when I got it, and I used it for another > fifteen. > > Another thing about real soldering equipment. Once you use a > temperature-controlled iron, you'll never go back to one that isn't. Agreed. I tememebr trying to use a friends cheapo iron to repair some bit of hardware. After failing to desolder a connection from the ground plane I went home and grabbed my Weller. After that, the repair went very easily. -tony From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu May 28 14:32:51 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 21:32:51 +0200 Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090528213251.58112b63.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 28 May 2009 01:21:28 -0700 (PDT) David Griffith wrote: > One reason I never graduated to /real/ soldering stations is that I > kept wondering "what do I do when it goes bad?". Repair it, if it goes bad at all. You can get replacement parts for branded products like Weller or Metcal. > What do you guys recommend? Good tools cost money but are invaluable. Don't waste your time with cheap tools. Spend your money for good, proper tools and they will last. My experience with Weller isn't that good. We have several Wellers at work. If you solder somthing biger they have a problem transporting the heat from the heating element to the tip. At least to my experience, at least with the Wellers at work. When I was 16 I bought a simple ERSA soldering station. At that time it was expensive for a teenager. But I still use it today, 20 years later. The pinnacle of soldering technic seems to be Metcal. Unfortunately they are rare on this side of The Pond. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From gklinger at gmail.com Thu May 28 14:56:51 2009 From: gklinger at gmail.com (Golan Klinger) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 15:56:51 -0400 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo Message-ID: Disclaimer: I wouldn't normally post this sort of thing but I'm confident it will be of interest to more than a few on this list. "1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo" -- Golan Klinger Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From IanK at vulcan.com Thu May 28 14:32:49 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 12:32:49 -0700 Subject: StorageWorks key Message-ID: Hey, all, I picked up a neat StorageWorks tower on ePay a while back, and decided to hook it up to my VAX-4000/300 through a HSD05. I went to install the HSD05 and realized that the front (and rear) bezel locks to the body of the tower, precluding removal of the drives. I don't have that key.... Is this another one of those keys like the XX2247 that fits every PDP-11 front panel lock? If so, is there anyone who can (a) suggest a source or (b) perhaps offer up such a thing? Thanks - Ian PS: this is for a system in my personal collection. UNIX is user friendly. It's just selective about who its friends are. Ian S. King, Sr. Vintage Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. http://www.pdpplanet.com From ploopster at gmail.com Thu May 28 15:01:01 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 16:01:01 -0400 Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A1EED7D.7020903@gmail.com> David Griffith wrote: > One reason I never graduated to /real/ soldering stations is that I kept > wondering "what do I do when it goes bad?". What do you guys recommend? Weller good. Metcal better. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu May 28 14:44:45 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 15:44:45 -0400 Subject: Making vintage computers In-Reply-To: <4A1DB2A2.6000505@stillhq.com> References: <4A1DB2A2.6000505@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <4A1EE9AD.7040902@gmail.com> Doug Jackson wrote: > I would personally consider purchasing a re manufactured Vintage computer - > > Something running, say, a 6502, 8080, 8085, or Z80. Definitely not > interested in anything post 8085. > > Not sure what I would do with an ISA bus. Not enough pins on my > processor to drive all of the address bits. > Multi CPU systems are probably to far out of the intent of the Vintage > realm for me to consider. There ARE multi-CPU vintage systems. Some of the CPUs in question were many, many boards full of chips. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 28 15:38:06 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 16:38:06 -0400 Subject: StorageWorks key In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 28, 2009, at 3:32 PM, Ian King wrote: > I picked up a neat StorageWorks tower on ePay a while back, and > decided to hook it up to my VAX-4000/300 through a HSD05. I went > to install the HSD05 and realized that the front (and rear) bezel > locks to the body of the tower, precluding removal of the drives. > I don't have that key.... > > Is this another one of those keys like the XX2247 that fits every > PDP-11 front panel lock? If so, is there anyone who can (a) > suggest a source or (b) perhaps offer up such a thing? If it takes the plastic keys used on many VAXen and some PDP-11s (11/24 and 11/44), if you can find out for sure, I can likely send you one of those. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 28 15:38:43 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 13:38:43 -0700 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A1E93E3.24953.348876B3@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 May 2009 at 15:56, Golan Klinger wrote: > Disclaimer: I wouldn't normally post this sort of thing but I'm > confident it will be of interest to more than a few on this list. > > "1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo" > This brought up the question of "whatever happened to all of the gray Bell Dataphones? (e.g. 401E). They used to be as common as cockroaches. I haven't seen one in many years. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 28 14:19:56 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 12:19:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: <60DBB9CE-B8D7-428C-A598-23158BC13A5C@feedle.net> References: <60DBB9CE-B8D7-428C-A598-23158BC13A5C@feedle.net> Message-ID: <20090528121855.D24934@shell.lmi.net> Why is it, that people with broken Wellers throw them out, instead of soldering the repairs needed? From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 28 14:04:11 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 12:04:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: <3DB4F56C-16E6-4211-8389-0A9696ED354B@neurotica.com> References: <3DB4F56C-16E6-4211-8389-0A9696ED354B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20090528115345.E24934@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 28 May 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > Ugh! Don't buy those crappy disposable irons. Quality tools are > important. Go to the flea market (boot sale) and buy a bunch of extremely cheap Wellers with broken switches and broken connections where the wire to the iron connects with the base. They'll cost you the same as the disposables. You might need to borrow a real iron to repair one of them, and then you can use that to repair the others. Then you will have a supply of adequate quality irons. Once I had iron(s), I felt a need to improve my soldering. I bought a few BARE XT mother boards, BARE video boards, and BARE floppy controllers, and a LOT of Augat turned pin sockets. They were readily available, and a LOT cheaper in those days. The cheapest sockets were soldered to various boards, so I also got a chance to learn UNsoldering. By the time I had populated the boards, the quality of my soldering had improved to "marginal". Most of the machines worked on the first try! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 28 15:55:01 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 16:55:01 -0400 Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: <20090528121855.D24934@shell.lmi.net> References: <60DBB9CE-B8D7-428C-A598-23158BC13A5C@feedle.net> <20090528121855.D24934@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <403E08AF-2CB0-4138-8F91-03890E31E9F8@neurotica.com> On May 28, 2009, at 3:19 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Why is it, that people with broken Wellers throw them out, instead of > soldering the repairs needed? I don't think I've ever seen or heard of a broken one. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu May 28 15:48:55 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 17:48:55 -0300 Subject: when soldering irons go bad References: Message-ID: <0c3401c9dfd6$72cfb4a0$35c219bb@desktaba> >Mostly, though, they work for decades unless mishandled. I forgot when was the last time I changed the resistance (heater?) on mine. I have an original WTCPN and a "home-made" WTCPN (bought the handpiece, made a base with a 24V transformer) From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu May 28 15:51:32 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 17:51:32 -0300 Subject: when soldering irons go bad References: Message-ID: <0c3501c9dfd6$745b84c0$35c219bb@desktaba> > And I'm another one who uses them. Simple, easy to repair (not that they > need it very often) and are great on juat about everything I work on (I > don't do mcuh high-density SMD stuff. I do, and it is easy with a WTCPN and a suitable tip >> Another thing about real soldering equipment. Once you use a >> temperature-controlled iron, you'll never go back to one that isn't. Agreed! From coredump at gifford.co.uk Thu May 28 15:55:07 2009 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 21:55:07 +0100 Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) In-Reply-To: References: <4A1E0237.1010506@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A1E0D34.7020508@jetnet.ab.ca> <06d601c9df54$97ee8d10$35c219bb@desktaba> <003901c9df9a$af15d110$0d417330$@com> <006701c9dfaa$2901fbc0$7b05f340$@com> Message-ID: <4A1EFA2B.3000606@gifford.co.uk> Gene Buckle wrote: > I'd love to find a 7" color VGA display. Even a 7" LCD panel with a 4:3 > aspect ratio would work. I have an Olivetti VGA colour monitor with a 9-inch screen. If you want to find one like it, the model number is: CD.9.A./2709 Hope that helps! -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 28 13:30:21 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 13:30:21 -0500 Subject: Boustrophedonic printer errors? Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090528132854.03bf8630@mail.threedee.com> While reading : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boustrophedon I found "Sometimes computer printers with a typewriter-like moving type head print boustrophedon if set up wrongly." Which old printers might've done that? - John From frustum at pacbell.net Thu May 28 16:06:59 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 16:06:59 -0500 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A1EFCF3.1090100@pacbell.net> Golan Klinger wrote: > Disclaimer: I wouldn't normally post this sort of thing but I'm > confident it will be of interest to more than a few on this list. > > "1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo" > Something weird there -- at 6:20 or so, he has a URL on the screen. It looks to me like "http://ww.wikipedia.org". And it connects. But it is "ww" not "www". There is no reason for him to go and fake it, but it bugs me nevertheless. From drb at msu.edu Thu May 28 16:09:38 2009 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 17:09:38 -0400 Subject: Boustrophedonic printer errors? In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 28 May 2009 13:30:21 CDT.) <6.2.3.4.2.20090528132854.03bf8630@mail.threedee.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20090528132854.03bf8630@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <200905282109.n4SL9cko015265@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boustrophedon > I found "Sometimes computer printers with a typewriter-like > moving type head print boustrophedon if set up wrongly." > Which old printers might've done that? Not sure exactly, but: Epson dot matrix printers used to advertise "logic seeking" and "bi-directional printing". They reversed the lines internally, but an older printer with no buffer might expect to be fed lines alternating forward and reverse, so it could print them in proper order when the head alternated forward and reverse on successive lines. De From dm561 at torfree.net Thu May 28 13:47:23 2009 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 14:47:23 -0400 Subject: EPROM for Linger 6502 Terminal Message-ID: <01C9DFA3.4D5A5A00@MSE_D03> Speaking of terminal kits, by any chance does anyone out there have a Linger 6502 terminal kit? I'm looking for an image of the the AT keyboard version of the EPROM... mike **************************** ---------------Original Message(s) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 22:00:57 -0400 From: Ethan Dicks Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 9:53 PM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Now back to putting together my SPARE TIME GIZMOS dumb terminal once I print > out the online PDF manual. I just got my VT-6 partial kit today - time for me to start assembling it! -ethan From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu May 28 16:18:19 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 14:18:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 28 May 2009, Golan Klinger wrote: > Disclaimer: I wouldn't normally post this sort of thing but I'm > confident it will be of interest to more than a few on this list. > > "1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo" > It certainly is of interest. I'd like to get one of those for myself. It shouldn't be too terribly hard to homebrew one of these things into a shoeshine box, right? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 28 16:21:53 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 15:21:53 -0600 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: <4A1E93E3.24953.348876B3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4A1E93E3.24953.348876B3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A1F0071.1020806@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > This brought up the question of "whatever happened to all of the gray > Bell Dataphones? (e.g. 401E). They used to be as common as > cockroaches. Same place as the 9V DC wall warts ... I could not find one for love or money. Had to pick a universial adapter, instead today. > I haven't seen one in many years. > > --Chuck > From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 28 16:26:00 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 14:26:00 -0700 Subject: Boustrophedonic printer errors? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20090528132854.03bf8630@mail.threedee.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20090528132854.03bf8630@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <4A1E9EF8.3445.34B3FF4B@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 May 2009 at 13:30, John Foust wrote: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boustrophedon > > I found "Sometimes computer printers with a typewriter-like > moving type head print boustrophedon if set up wrongly." > > Which old printers might've done that? Just about any of the old daisywheels or dot matrix printers. George Comstock (of Diablo) first acquainted me with the word "boustrophedonic"--"plowing like an ox" many years ago. --Chuck From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu May 28 16:24:35 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 18:24:35 -0300 Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) References: <4A1E0237.1010506@jetnet.ab.ca><4A1E0D34.7020508@jetnet.ab.ca><06d601c9df54$97ee8d10$35c219bb@desktaba><003901c9df9a$af15d110$0d417330$@com> Message-ID: <0cd101c9dfda$eaec2960$35c219bb@desktaba> >One problem is that the video circuit for compact Macs is bizarre. >The display circuit was optimized for square pixels at 72 dpi on the >tube. Here's the stats of the Mac video circuit I was able to dredge >up... Do what I did. Subistitute the entire analog board for a small (9") vga mono monitor :o) All (or most) picture tubes are compatible. I have an old mac 128 who came to me without the analog board. When it happened, it was hard (and expensive) as hell to put my hands on an analog board. Since I wanted that mac to play, I gutted an old 9" mono vga monitor I had and installed everything but the picture tube on the mac. It is my "secondary PC monitor" up to today, running windows and like :D If you want a colour monitor, install everything - incluiding the picture tube. >As for the keyboard, the original Mac keyboard (128K and 512K) lacks >arrow keys, a control key, function keys and a keypad. The Mac Plus Why would I use the (arrrrggghhhh) original mac keyboard? The newer mac keyboards are nice, and you can always build an ADB -> PS/2 adapter. Or mod the source of the VT-5 to use an ADB keyboard :) I took a (very) fast look on the schematics, seems that the keyboard decoder is very simple. Or, do like me, use a PC keyboard :o) >EDT user. I don't know anything about Mac keyboard protocols or >signaling method, but with the modular-jack keyboards (pre-ADB), it's >probably similar enough to what everyone else did (power, ground, >either data+clock or bi-directional data over the 4 wires) that it >shouldn't be too hard to reverse-engineer. ADB is not hard, it is well documented in apple's site! >If you could find an old 9" mono VGA monitor, that might be easy to >physically adapt to an old Mac case, but I don't remember those being >too common, even back when they were making them (since they were >really only popular with hardcore DOS users). you can use a 12" monitor circuit with a 9" tube. Did I made it easier for you? :o) I have some photos of mine, I can send to you, my site is offline From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu May 28 16:25:52 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 18:25:52 -0300 Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) References: <003901c9df9a$af15d110$0d417330$@com> <200905281057.54581.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <0d1d01c9dfdb$39656cf0$35c219bb@desktaba> > The problem, of course, is finding terminal emulation software that'll > emulate weird terminal types (non VT100/ANSI emulation). That's what I - Telix? - Terminate? (EXCELLENT!!!!!!) - Telemate? - Procomm Plus? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 28 16:34:35 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 17:34:35 -0400 Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: <403E08AF-2CB0-4138-8F91-03890E31E9F8@neurotica.com> References: <60DBB9CE-B8D7-428C-A598-23158BC13A5C@feedle.net> <20090528121855.D24934@shell.lmi.net> <403E08AF-2CB0-4138-8F91-03890E31E9F8@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 28, 2009, at 3:19 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >> Why is it, that people with broken Wellers throw them out, instead of >> soldering the repairs needed? > > ?I don't think I've ever seen or heard of a broken one. I've run across 2-3 over the past 25 years. They all had hard lives but were still trivial to fix (cable/sensor/heater problems). I didn't have to spend more than $20 in new parts to get any one of them working. I haven't yet run across one with a problem in the base. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 28 16:39:24 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 17:39:24 -0400 Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: <4A1EED7D.7020903@gmail.com> References: <4A1EED7D.7020903@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 4:01 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > David Griffith wrote: >> >> One reason I never graduated to /real/ soldering stations is that I kept >> wondering "what do I do when it goes bad?". ?What do you guys recommend? > > Weller good. ?Metcal better. Agreed. I'm sorry I was out of the country for the shutting-down-the-factory clearance at the Lucent Columbus Works (formerly the Western Electric Columbus Works) where I worked for a couple of years a while back. I was told by a friend who used to work the factory that tools like the Metcal irons were free for the taking. Unfortunately, I hadn't met him yet when that happened, or I would've had him grab me one. I used those same Metcals a few times... very nice. Plenty of odd SMT rework tips. It was difficult to go home to my Weller. -ethan From ploopster at gmail.com Thu May 28 16:41:02 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 17:41:02 -0400 Subject: Boustrophedonic printer errors? In-Reply-To: <4A1E9EF8.3445.34B3FF4B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20090528132854.03bf8630@mail.threedee.com> <4A1E9EF8.3445.34B3FF4B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A1F04EE.9040500@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 28 May 2009 at 13:30, John Foust wrote: > >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boustrophedon >> >> I found "Sometimes computer printers with a typewriter-like >> moving type head print boustrophedon if set up wrongly." >> >> Which old printers might've done that? > > Just about any of the old daisywheels or dot matrix printers. George > Comstock (of Diablo) first acquainted me with the word > "boustrophedonic"--"plowing like an ox" many years ago. I've seen it happen on daisywheels, but I don't even understand how it would be possible to happen on a dot-matrix printer. Can you describe what the output looks like? Peace... Sridhar From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu May 28 16:43:03 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 17:43:03 -0400 Subject: Making vintage computers In-Reply-To: <4A1EE9AD.7040902@gmail.com> References: <4A1DB2A2.6000505@stillhq.com> <4A1EE9AD.7040902@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200905281743.03103.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 28 May 2009, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Doug Jackson wrote: > > I would personally consider purchasing a re manufactured Vintage > > computer - > > > > Something running, say, a 6502, 8080, 8085, or Z80. Definitely > > not interested in anything post 8085. > > > > Not sure what I would do with an ISA bus. Not enough pins on my > > processor to drive all of the address bits. > > Multi CPU systems are probably to far out of the intent of the > > Vintage realm for me to consider. > > There ARE multi-CPU vintage systems. Some of the CPUs in question > were many, many boards full of chips. The first (SMP) one that comes to mind is a VAX 8800 (I only have 1/2, aka an 8700), or my VAXstation 3520/3540. Of course, there were other non-SMP systems (like the Dual VAX (11/780)), and systems that had multiple CPUs but weren't really dual-processor (DEC Rainbow). Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 28 13:39:08 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 19:39:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at May 28, 9 01:21:28 am Message-ID: > > One reason I never graduated to /real/ soldering stations is that I kept > wondering "what do I do when it goes bad?". What do you guys recommend? I am not sure what you're asking.... The Soldering station I have uses a Weller TCP iron (it's not one of the modern electornically-controlled ones). It consists of a power switch and fuse, a 24V 50VA transformer, and the output connector. THe iron consists of the cable, element and magnetic switch. If/when it fails, I can trivially use a multimeter to find the bad part :-). As regards replacing it, I still have a 'spare' TCP iron that I could run off my bebch supply (if the base part of the station had failed, if that's OK, I'd just plug it in to the station) to use for repairing the one I normally use. -tony From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu May 28 16:43:28 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 18:43:28 -0300 Subject: when soldering irons go bad References: <4A1EED7D.7020903@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0d4901c9dfdd$61f7dc50$35c219bb@desktaba> > Weller good. Metcal better. I **never** seen a metcal in person. This is something I dream to have. It is heated by RF, eh? :oO >the factory that tools like the Metcal irons were free for the taking. :oO >I used those same Metcals a few times... very nice. Plenty of odd SMT >rework tips. It was difficult to go home to my Weller. Drooling :oD From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 28 16:47:08 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 17:47:08 -0400 Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) In-Reply-To: <006701c9dfaa$2901fbc0$7b05f340$@com> References: <4A1E0237.1010506@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A1E0D34.7020508@jetnet.ab.ca> <06d601c9df54$97ee8d10$35c219bb@desktaba> <003901c9df9a$af15d110$0d417330$@com> <006701c9dfaa$2901fbc0$7b05f340$@com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 11:37 AM, Bob Armstrong wrote: >>Ethan Dicks [mailto:ethan.dicks at gmail.com] >>If you could find an old 9" mono VGA monitor... > > ?9" mono VGA monitors were at one time common on POS ("Point of Sale") > terminals (i.e. cash registers) that were really nothing more than a > disguised PC. Ah! Good point. I completely overlooked that avenue. There may have been more used for that application than for all others combined (making them a rich source). >?I often find them at surplus places, although the supply does > seem to be drying up. I don't think the surplus places around here (except perhaps for Mendelsson's) have quite the eclectic selection as the ones around you. Barring a few at the Dayton Hamvention, I can't recall running across old POS terminals. I did get some 20x2 VFD Pole Displays from a POS at Dayton - a carton of them for $10. I even got them working with LCDproc. Never saw the terminals themselves, though. -ethan From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu May 28 16:48:27 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 14:48:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) In-Reply-To: <4A1EFA2B.3000606@gifford.co.uk> References: <4A1E0237.1010506@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A1E0D34.7020508@jetnet.ab.ca> <06d601c9df54$97ee8d10$35c219bb@desktaba> <003901c9df9a$af15d110$0d417330$@com> <006701c9dfaa$2901fbc0$7b05f340$@com> <4A1EFA2B.3000606@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 May 2009, John Honniball wrote: > Gene Buckle wrote: >> I'd love to find a 7" color VGA display. Even a 7" LCD panel with a 4:3 >> aspect ratio would work. > > I have an Olivetti VGA colour monitor with a 9-inch screen. > If you want to find one like it, the model number is: > John, thanks for the tip. Unfortunately, a 7" diagonal monitor is the largest I can use. It's a replacement for the 1:1 aspect ratio screen that was originally installed in the MPCD of the F-15C I'm rebuilding into a simulator. I've got a 7" monochrome display shoe-horned into the chassis now, but it really should be a color display. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 28 16:43:36 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 17:43:36 -0400 Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) In-Reply-To: <0cd101c9dfda$eaec2960$35c219bb@desktaba> References: <4A1E0237.1010506@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A1E0D34.7020508@jetnet.ab.ca> <06d601c9df54$97ee8d10$35c219bb@desktaba> <003901c9df9a$af15d110$0d417330$@com> <0cd101c9dfda$eaec2960$35c219bb@desktaba> Message-ID: On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 5:24 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> One problem is that the video circuit for compact Macs is bizarre... > ? Do what I did. Subistitute the entire analog board for a small (9") vga > mono monitor :o) . . . > ? Why would I use the (arrrrggghhhh) original mac keyboard? You? Bob was the one who made the comment about repurposing the original parts. Of course it's easier to mount the guts from a 9" mono VGA in place of the guts of the original Mac and to rig up some sort of wiring arrangement to attach a PS/2 keyboard to the VT-6 inside the case... that's not what was suggested. I was addressing specific peculiarities of the Apple electronics. > ? you can use a 12" monitor circuit with a 9" tube. Did I made it easier for > you? :o) I can understand how that can be so, but I didn't assume it was true. I certainly have never tried it (though now I might). -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 28 16:55:46 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 17:55:46 -0400 Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: <0d4901c9dfdd$61f7dc50$35c219bb@desktaba> References: <4A1EED7D.7020903@gmail.com> <0d4901c9dfdd$61f7dc50$35c219bb@desktaba> Message-ID: On May 28, 2009, at 5:43 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> Weller good. Metcal better. > > I **never** seen a metcal in person. This is something I dream > to have. > It is heated by RF, eh? :oO I didn't think anything could be better than my trusty Weller, until I tried the Metcal. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 28 16:57:49 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 17:57:49 -0400 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: <4A1EFCF3.1090100@pacbell.net> References: <4A1EFCF3.1090100@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 5:06 PM, Jim Battle wrote: >> "1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo" >> > > Something weird there -- at 6:20 or so, he has a URL on the screen. ?It > looks to me like "http://ww.wikipedia.org". ?And it connects. ?But it is > "ww" not "www". ?There is no reason for him to go and fake it, but it bugs > me nevertheless. I can't look at it from where I am, but I know that at previous employers, we used to set up our DNS to allow "ww" _and_ "www" to hit our web servers to give a little assistance to our customers who might have problems typing (that and I was tired of the errors in the DNS logs ;-) That having been said, I have no idea what's happening in the video (and http://ww.wikipedia.org/ is not valid - I just checked). -ethan From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu May 28 16:59:17 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 18:59:17 -0300 Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) References: <4A1E0237.1010506@jetnet.ab.ca><4A1E0D34.7020508@jetnet.ab.ca><06d601c9df54$97ee8d10$35c219bb@desktaba><003901c9df9a$af15d110$0d417330$@com><0cd101c9dfda$eaec2960$35c219bb@desktaba> Message-ID: <0d8601c9dfdf$9af81360$35c219bb@desktaba> > you can use a 12" monitor circuit with a 9" tube. Did I made it easier for > you? :o) >I can understand how that can be so, but I didn't assume it was true. >I certainly have never tried it (though now I might). Most of mono monitors are the same. Never had a different tube that I couldn't exchange between boards (but you have to use the same yoke coil from the board - you just swap the glass tube). I used tubes from 5" to 12" in the same board. All of then worked the same, with retouches on the pots (width, height, bright, so on) From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 28 17:04:59 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 15:04:59 -0700 Subject: Boustrophedonic printer errors? In-Reply-To: <4A1F04EE.9040500@gmail.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20090528132854.03bf8630@mail.threedee.com>, <4A1E9EF8.3445.34B3FF4B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A1F04EE.9040500@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A1EA81B.15802.34D7914F@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 May 2009 at 17:41, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I've seen it happen on daisywheels, but I don't even understand how it > would be possible to happen on a dot-matrix printer. Can you describe > what the output looks like? Maybe I should shoot a video of one operating. Basically, the head moves left-to-right when printing the first line and buffers up the second line. Discarding leading and trailing spaces, the processor that controls the printer decides if it would be faster to print the next line right-to-left or left-to-right, based on the position of where the printhead came to rest when the previous line was printed. Multipass NLQ dot-matrix printers were always bi-directional ( print a bunch of dots in one pass and then print on the same line but offset by a tiny horizontal amount). The first printer that I ever owned was a Diablo Hitype I with the OEM 12-bit interface connected to a Processor Tech S100 parallel I/O card. It was about three monts before I figured out that I could save a lot of time by printing bidirectionally instead of printing Teletype-style. Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 28 17:07:35 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 15:07:35 -0700 Subject: Making vintage computers In-Reply-To: <200905281743.03103.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: , <4A1EE9AD.7040902@gmail.com>, <200905281743.03103.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4A1EA8B7.4919.34D9F281@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 May 2009 at 17:43, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > The first (SMP) one that comes to mind is a VAX 8800 (I only have 1/2, > aka an 8700), or my VAXstation 3520/3540. CDC 6500? (Purdue used to own one). There's also the 6700 (6600+6400 in the same box). --Chuck From lists at databasics.us Thu May 28 17:09:07 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 12:09:07 -1000 Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: <20090528121855.D24934@shell.lmi.net> References: <60DBB9CE-B8D7-428C-A598-23158BC13A5C@feedle.net> <20090528121855.D24934@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4A1F0B83.20807@databasics.us> Fred Cisin wrote: > Why is it, that people with broken Wellers throw them out, instead of > soldering the repairs needed? To provide cheap people like me with quality equipment.... and thank God for that! Warren From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Thu May 28 17:09:12 2009 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 18:09:12 -0400 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: References: <4A1EFCF3.1090100@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <4affc5e0905281509w75ea827alac21944ef295bd09@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 17:57, Ethan Dicks wrote: > That having been said, I have no idea what's happening in the video > (and http://ww.wikipedia.org/ is not valid - I just checked). I thought it was too fuzzy to see, but I guess he typed http://en.wikipedia.org - this makes sense since otherwise he'd have gotten the language selection screen. Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Thu May 28 17:12:33 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 18:12:33 -0400 Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200905282212.n4SMCMco081219@keith.ezwind.net> On Thu, 28 May 2009 14:48:27 -0700 (PDT), Gene Buckle wrote: >On Thu, 28 May 2009, John Honniball wrote: >> Gene Buckle wrote: >>> I'd love to find a 7" color VGA display. Even a 7" LCD panel with a 4:3 >>> aspect ratio would work. >> >> I have an Olivetti VGA colour monitor with a 9-inch screen. >> If you want to find one like it, the model number is: >> >John, thanks for the tip. Unfortunately, a 7" diagonal monitor is the >largest I can use. It's a replacement for the 1:1 aspect ratio screen >that was originally installed in the MPCD of the F-15C I'm rebuilding into >a simulator. I've got a 7" monochrome display shoe-horned into the >chassis now, but it really should be a color display. >g. Google 7 inch color display and you will find a bunch of choices. assuming LCT is close enough. 7 color CRT are a bit harder to find but theye are around. an ebay search of 7 color tv came up with a few choices. Auto Vackup camera with 7 display http://www.i4u.com/article6741.html Door camera with 7 color display http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/211479480/Color_Video_Door_Phone_7_inch.html http://www.diytrade.com/china/4/products/4802363/7inch_in_VGA_LCD_PC_AV.html ASUS Eee PC 4G (7-Inch Display http://www.amazon.com/7-Inch-Display-Mobile-Processor-Preloaded/dp/B000YEMKGY Bob From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu May 28 16:59:01 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 22:59:01 +0100 Subject: receptacles (was IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A1F0925.9020505@dunnington.plus.com> On 28/05/2009 19:45, Tony Duell wrote: > Indeed. I have a cable with a suitable plug on one end to fit the > transformer (It's normally called a 'BS4343 plug' over here after the > British Standard that refers to it , there is a CEN number, but I can't > rememebr it :-)) IEC 309, or more correctly (and up to date) IEC 60309 or EN 60309. Often called "Commando" plugs though that's a trademark of a particular manufacturer. That range covers 240V as well as 110V and covers three-phase versions as well. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From RichA at vulcan.com Thu May 28 17:31:41 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 15:31:41 -0700 Subject: Making vintage computers In-Reply-To: <200905281743.03103.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4A1DB2A2.6000505@stillhq.com> <4A1EE9AD.7040902@gmail.com> <200905281743.03103.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: > From: Patrick Finnegan > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 2:43 PM > On Thursday 28 May 2009, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Doug Jackson wrote: >>> Multi CPU systems are probably to far out of the intent of the >>> Vintage realm for me to consider. >> There ARE multi-CPU vintage systems. Some of the CPUs in question >> were many, many boards full of chips. > The first (SMP) one that comes to mind is a VAX 8800 (I only have 1/2, > aka an 8700), or my VAXstation 3520/3540. > Of course, there were other non-SMP systems (like the Dual VAX > (11/780)), and systems that had multiple CPUs but weren't really > dual-processor (DEC Rainbow). The first that comes to mind is the PDP-10 Model 1055, a master-slave dual processor, c. 1968. Then the 1077 and eventually the 1099, replaced by the SMP systems, which could have anywhere from 2 to 5 CPUs (maximum # built, theoretically up to 8). There were dual-processor System/360 models in the 1960s, too. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 28 17:38:15 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 15:38:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: References: <60DBB9CE-B8D7-428C-A598-23158BC13A5C@feedle.net> <20090528121855.D24934@shell.lmi.net> <403E08AF-2CB0-4138-8F91-03890E31E9F8@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20090528153719.V36235@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 28 May 2009, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I've run across 2-3 over the past 25 years. They all had hard lives > but were still trivial to fix (cable/sensor/heater problems). I > didn't have to spend more than $20 in new parts to get any one of them > working. I haven't yet run across one with a problem in the base. The connector for the cord from the base to the iron occasionally the power switch From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu May 28 18:03:47 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 16:03:47 -0700 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo References: Message-ID: <4A1F1852.355206C9@cs.ubc.ca> David Griffith wrote: > > On Thu, 28 May 2009, Golan Klinger wrote: > > > Disclaimer: I wouldn't normally post this sort of thing but I'm > > confident it will be of interest to more than a few on this list. > > > > "1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo" > > > > It certainly is of interest. I'd like to get one of those for myself. It > shouldn't be too terribly hard to homebrew one of these things into a > shoeshine box, right? I have one of the same model as shown in the video (Livermore Data Systems model A). Component date codes in mine are 1969/70, the 1964 suggestion may be a little early, but I guess it depends on how long they were producing them for. Very elaborate woodwork for the task (solid teak or walnut with dovetail joints) but I suppose the wood case had some acoustic advantages. 13 transistors. (pedantic: His technical description was a little off, it's FSK, not an 'interrupted' tone.) Does anyone know if the frequencies for the 110 and 300 baud modem standards were the same or different? From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 28 18:04:54 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 16:04:54 -0700 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A1F1896.6020300@brouhaha.com> David Griffith wrote: > It certainly is of interest. I'd like to get one of those for > myself. It shouldn't be too terribly hard to homebrew one of these > things into a shoeshine box, right? "Pennywhistle", Popular Electronics, March 1976. If you don't really need a design that old, you might be able to find a TMS99532 or Am7910 FSK modem chip. Eric From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 28 18:10:56 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 19:10:56 -0400 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: <4A1F1896.6020300@brouhaha.com> References: <4A1F1896.6020300@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <49D46435-DFCF-45CE-8D53-6ED0F8960961@neurotica.com> On May 28, 2009, at 7:04 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> It certainly is of interest. I'd like to get one of those for >> myself. It shouldn't be too terribly hard to homebrew one of >> these things into a shoeshine box, right? > "Pennywhistle", Popular Electronics, March 1976. > > If you don't really need a design that old, you might be able to > find a TMS99532 or Am7910 FSK modem chip. An eBay seller has a number of TMS99532s available at $2.75/ea, item # 110376664450. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 28 18:29:20 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 16:29:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090528162543.A37172@shell.lmi.net> We saw him dial, and put the handset into the cradle, but he did NOT shut the lid. The notch is there for a reason. If you don't close the lid, ambient noise, such as a nearby printer or 026, can be a problem. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Thu May 28 18:47:22 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 19:47:22 -0400 Subject: Making vintage computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200905282347.n4SNlBgM000830@keith.ezwind.net> On Thu, 28 May 2009 15:31:41 -0700, Rich Alderson wrote: >There were dual-processor System/360 models in the 1960s, too. I thought the 370/158-MP was IBMs first true tightly bound multiprocessor it was introduced in Feb 1973. The 370/158-AP & MP was introduced in 1976. The AP did in fact have 2 cpus but they were not so tightly bound as the MP, it was more of a co- processor as I recal. The 3033MP came along in 1978. The rest is history. The other Bob From tpeters at mixcom.com Thu May 28 18:48:07 2009 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 18:48:07 -0500 Subject: Boustrophedonic printer errors? In-Reply-To: <200905282109.n4SL9cko015265@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <(Your message of Thu, 28 May 2009 13:30:21 CDT.) <6.2.3.4.2.20090528132854.03bf8630@mail.threedee.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20090528132854.03bf8630@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20090528184327.0d130940@localhost> At 05:09 PM 5/28/2009 -0400, you wrote: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boustrophedon > > > I found "Sometimes computer printers with a typewriter-like > > moving type head print boustrophedon if set up wrongly." > > > Which old printers might've done that? > >Not sure exactly, but: > >Epson dot matrix printers used to advertise "logic seeking" and >"bi-directional printing". They reversed the lines internally, but an >older printer with no buffer might expect to be fed lines alternating >forward and reverse, so it could print them in proper order when the >head alternated forward and reverse on successive lines. In approximately 1980, I read the command set manual for the Diablo 630 (620?) daisy-wheel printer. I noted with interest the command to cause it to print right-to-left. Hmm, I thought, if it CAN do that, then it SHOULD do that. So I wrote a driver for VMS for it. I had a little help on the driver complexities. Darned if analyzing line lengths and figuring out whether to seek to the left margin or swing out to the right and print backward wasn't hellacious. -T ----- 267. [Religion] There's one born again every minute ;-) --gauntlet at bga.com (Jeff) --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From rick at rickmurphy.net Thu May 28 18:50:32 2009 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 19:50:32 -0400 Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: <403E08AF-2CB0-4138-8F91-03890E31E9F8@neurotica.com> References: <60DBB9CE-B8D7-428C-A598-23158BC13A5C@feedle.net> <20090528121855.D24934@shell.lmi.net> <403E08AF-2CB0-4138-8F91-03890E31E9F8@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200905282350.n4SNoXbP028474@rickmurphy.net> At 04:55 PM 5/28/2009, Dave McGuire wrote: >On May 28, 2009, at 3:19 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>Why is it, that people with broken Wellers throw them out, instead of >>soldering the repairs needed? > > I don't think I've ever seen or heard of a broken one. I have a W-TCP that I obtained probably 30 years ago; the insulation on the cable between the base and the iron deteriorated over time to the point where I replaced it with a chunk of CAT 5 cable. And yes, I used a cheapo iron to solder those connections. Hopefully it'll last me another 30 years now. Someone mentioned that parts are easily available for these. Any pointers? I also have a Weller soldering gun for those big jobs. :-) -Rick From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 28 18:56:03 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 16:56:03 -0700 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: <20090528162543.A37172@shell.lmi.net> References: , <20090528162543.A37172@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4A1EC223.26567.353D6FFC@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 May 2009 at 16:29, Fred Cisin wrote: > We saw him dial, and put the handset into the cradle, but he did NOT > shut the lid. The notch is there for a reason. If you don't close > the lid, ambient noise, such as a nearby printer or 026, can be a > problem. Yeah Fred, but a modern laptop isn't nearly as noisy as an ASR33! I don't recall Silent 700 terminals having any such lid on the acoustic coupler. --Chuck From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Thu May 28 19:00:25 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 17:00:25 -0700 Subject: Doorbell switch with an interesting brand name References: Message-ID: <001501c9dff0$78a40510$0201a8c0@hal9000> Heathkit still exists ; www.Heathkit.com It is an Educational Systems entity. Old Heathkit manuals are still available ( but not from them ), and the old HERO Robot line ( parts, manuals, etc ) were bought out by rdoerr at bizserve.com ( good guy ). The " new " Heathkit company has a new educational robot called " HE-RObot " with an INTEL brain and 80 GBytes of hard drive. Vintage Heathkit equipment, computers , etc. are peppered throughout Ebay.... Best regards, Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Watzman" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 4:22 PM Subject: Re: Doorbell switch with an interesting brand name > It's only part of what happened. The name was sold --non exclusively-- to a > firm in the US for the production of certain household security products. > It creates an odd situation, because at this point there are totally > unrelated entities using (or at least able to use) various forms of the > names "Heath", "Heath Company", "Heathkit", "Heath/Zenith", etc. ... for > different, unrelated product lines. > > -Barry Watzman > > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Doorbell switch with an interesting brand name... > > The reason I mention it is that the brand name on said [doorbell] switch is > 'Heath/Zenith', and the way they're written is very similar (I'd say > identical) to the old Heath/Zenith brand used on classic computers > > On the pack (amongst other things) are the statements 'Should you require > it, Heath Zenith offer a range of other accessories and bell wire' (in that > one , the 'Heath Zenith' is in a normal font. And 'DESA UK LTD > www.desaeurope.com ... A division of Desa International Inc. The world's > largest doorchime company' > > So is that what happened to the Heath and Zenith brand names :-( > > -tony From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu May 28 19:09:14 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 20:09:14 -0400 Subject: Making vintage computers In-Reply-To: <4A1EA8B7.4919.34D9F281@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200905281743.03103.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4A1EA8B7.4919.34D9F281@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200905282009.14428.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 28 May 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 28 May 2009 at 17:43, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > The first (SMP) one that comes to mind is a VAX 8800 (I only have > > 1/2, aka an 8700), or my VAXstation 3520/3540. > > CDC 6500? (Purdue used to own one). There's also the 6700 > (6600+6400 in the same box). Perhaps, but I don't own one of those, so it didn't spring to mind. :) Of course, there were a large number of master/slave CPU arrangements from various computer vendors as well before SMP (or at least before it was popular). Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 28 19:16:39 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 17:16:39 -0700 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: <4A1EC223.26567.353D6FFC@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20090528162543.A37172@shell.lmi.net> <4A1EC223.26567.353D6FFC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A1F2967.5000404@brouhaha.com> Fred wrote: > We saw him dial, and put the handset into the cradle, but he did NOT > shut the lid. The notch is there for a reason. If you don't close > the lid, ambient noise, such as a nearby printer or 026, can be a > problem. Chuck wrote: > Yeah Fred, but a modern laptop isn't nearly as noisy as an ASR33! I > don't recall Silent 700 terminals having any such lid on the acoustic > coupler. > Many ASR33s were equipped with an acoustic coupler to the right of the keyboard and printer, and they didn't have any cover to exclude outside noise. They worked fine even though the ASR33 itself was quite noisy, because 103 FSK modulation at 110 baud [*] had a lot of noise margin. Eric [*] These were actually 110 baud, since there was a one-to-one mapping of bits to modulation symbols. Later modems were often incorrectly described as 1200 baud, 2400 baud, 9600 baud, etc., when in fact the quoted number was their data transfer rate in bits per second, and the baud rate was a fraction of that. From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 28 19:28:33 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 18:28:33 -0600 Subject: Making vintage computers In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 28 May 2009 17:43:03 -0400. <200905281743.03103.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: In article <200905281743.03103.pat at computer-refuge.org>, Patrick Finnegan writes: > The first (SMP) one that comes to mind is a VAX 8800 (I only have 1/2, > aka an 8700), or my VAXstation 3520/3540. ILLIAC Specifically ILLIAC III and IV -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From blstuart at bellsouth.net Thu May 28 19:37:05 2009 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 19:37:05 -0500 Subject: Making vintage computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2ca3f9e5693e266561ba32c5da76e61b@bellsouth.net> > In article <200905281743.03103.pat at computer-refuge.org>, > Patrick Finnegan writes: > >> The first (SMP) one that comes to mind is a VAX 8800 (I only have 1/2, >> aka an 8700), or my VAXstation 3520/3540. > > ILLIAC > > Specifically ILLIAC III and IV > > I'm surprised that no one had yet mentioned BINAC. Of course, in it, the two CPUs weren't for performance so much as for fault detection. BLS From frustum at pacbell.net Thu May 28 19:46:39 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 19:46:39 -0500 Subject: Making vintage computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A1F306F.2030300@pacbell.net> Richard wrote: > In article <200905281743.03103.pat at computer-refuge.org>, > Patrick Finnegan writes: > >> The first (SMP) one that comes to mind is a VAX 8800 (I only have 1/2, >> aka an 8700), or my VAXstation 3520/3540. > > ILLIAC > > Specifically ILLIAC III and IV > > Those weren't SMP. From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 28 19:56:21 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 17:56:21 -0700 Subject: Making vintage computers In-Reply-To: <200905282009.14428.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: , <4A1EA8B7.4919.34D9F281@cclist.sydex.com>, <200905282009.14428.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4A1ED045.19572.35746DCE@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 May 2009 at 20:09, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > CDC 6500? (Purdue used to own one). There's also the 6700 > > (6600+6400 in the same box). > > Perhaps, but I don't own one of those, so it didn't spring to mind. :) > > Of course, there were a large number of master/slave CPU arrangements > from various computer vendors as well before SMP (or at least before > it was popular). For certain, ILLIAC, but the 6500 was 2 6400 CPUs sharing a common memory and PPU set. Doubtless there were other 60's era machines to do the same, but no others readily come to mind. Each CPU in the 6500 had no hardware-defined way to tell what the other was doing. The PPUs could exchange jump them selectively and I seem to recall that when CEJ/MEJ came along, one or the other, but not both, could be in monitor mode. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 28 20:00:18 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 18:00:18 -0700 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: <49D46435-DFCF-45CE-8D53-6ED0F8960961@neurotica.com> References: , <4A1F1896.6020300@brouhaha.com>, <49D46435-DFCF-45CE-8D53-6ED0F8960961@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A1ED132.7480.35780B86@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 May 2009 at 19:10, Dave McGuire wrote: > > If you don't really need a design that old, you might be able to > > find a TMS99532 or Am7910 FSK modem chip. > > An eBay seller has a number of TMS99532s available at $2.75/ea, > item # 110376664450. I don't recall what the Pennywhistle used. Was it NE567s or am I thinking of another hobbyist modem design? --Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 28 19:55:44 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 19:55:44 -0500 Subject: Boustrophedonic printer errors? In-Reply-To: <4A1E9EF8.3445.34B3FF4B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20090528132854.03bf8630@mail.threedee.com> <4A1E9EF8.3445.34B3FF4B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090528195326.08c834e0@mail.threedee.com> At 04:26 PM 5/28/2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 28 May 2009 at 13:30, John Foust wrote: > >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boustrophedon >> >> I found "Sometimes computer printers with a typewriter-like >> moving type head print boustrophedon if set up wrongly." >> >> Which old printers might've done that? > >Just about any of the old daisywheels or dot matrix printers. George >Comstock (of Diablo) first acquainted me with the word >"boustrophedonic"--"plowing like an ox" many years ago. OK, I'll bite. What would be set wrongly to make it do this? I'm not talking about a printer that can print on the return to to the left... The Wikipedia article makes it sound like the text prints "backwards" on every other line. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 28 19:51:35 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 19:51:35 -0500 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: <4A1E93E3.24953.348876B3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4A1E93E3.24953.348876B3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090528194927.08c868f0@mail.threedee.com> At 03:38 PM 5/28/2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 28 May 2009 at 15:56, Golan Klinger wrote: >> "1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo" >> > >This brought up the question of "whatever happened to all of the gray >Bell Dataphones? (e.g. 401E). They used to be as common as >cockroaches. I haven't seen one in many years. A while back I mentioned my Anderson Jacobson ADC 300: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2000-October/159208.html It looks like: http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/102635865 - John From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 28 20:01:27 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 20:01:27 -0500 Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: References: <4A1EED7D.7020903@gmail.com> <0d4901c9dfdd$61f7dc50$35c219bb@desktaba> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090528195858.03c24948@mail.threedee.com> At 04:55 PM 5/28/2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > I didn't think anything could be better than my trusty Weller, >until I tried the Metcal. Looks Metcals go for $100-200 on eBay. Is that expensive? As a teen in the late 70s, I once tried to assemble a mail-order electronics kit but it wouldn't work... I sent it back to the company for diagnosis and was stung by the hand-written criticism that "it looks like it was soldered with a hot brick." - John From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 28 20:10:26 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 18:10:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: <4A1F2967.5000404@brouhaha.com> References: , <20090528162543.A37172@shell.lmi.net> <4A1EC223.26567.353D6FFC@cclist.sydex.com> <4A1F2967.5000404@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20090528180758.Q40265@shell.lmi.net> > > We saw him dial, and put the handset into the cradle, but he did NOT > > shut the lid. The notch is there for a reason. If you don't close > > the lid, ambient noise, such as a nearby printer or 026, can be a > > problem. > Chuck wrote: > > Yeah Fred, but a modern laptop isn't nearly as noisy as an ASR33! I > > don't recall Silent 700 terminals having any such lid on the acoustic > > coupler. > Many ASR33s were equipped with an acoustic coupler to the right of the > keyboard and printer, and they didn't have any cover to exclude outside > noise. They worked fine even though the ASR33 itself was quite noisy, > because 103 FSK modulation at 110 baud [*] had a lot of noise margin. Yes, many other acoustic modems functioned without a cover. The Livermore Data Systems model A had sound deadening foam (subject to the usual deterioration) on the underside of the lid, and needed it a lot more than some other modems. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 28 20:13:36 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 21:13:36 -0400 Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20090528195858.03c24948@mail.threedee.com> References: <4A1EED7D.7020903@gmail.com> <0d4901c9dfdd$61f7dc50$35c219bb@desktaba> <6.2.3.4.2.20090528195858.03c24948@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <6329F7C2-5791-4AAD-A6F2-36533BDC1F93@neurotica.com> On May 28, 2009, at 9:01 PM, John Foust wrote: >> I didn't think anything could be better than my trusty Weller, >> until I tried the Metcal. > > Looks Metcals go for $100-200 on eBay. Is that expensive? Depends on the model. For just a soldering station, that's on the high side of reasonable. For an SMT rework station, it's average to low. > As a teen in the late 70s, I once tried to assemble a mail-order > electronics kit but it wouldn't work... I sent it back to the > company for diagnosis and was stung by the hand-written criticism > that "it looks like it was soldered with a hot brick." Were you using one of those evil Radio Shack $7.00 specials? ;) I once knew a guy who soldered kits together by running back and forth between his kitchen stove and the table with a flat-blade screwdriver. I don't know if he ever actually completed anything. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 28 20:15:00 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 21:15:00 -0400 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: <4A1ED132.7480.35780B86@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4A1F1896.6020300@brouhaha.com>, <49D46435-DFCF-45CE-8D53-6ED0F8960961@neurotica.com> <4A1ED132.7480.35780B86@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On May 28, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> If you don't really need a design that old, you might be able to >>> find a TMS99532 or Am7910 FSK modem chip. >> >> An eBay seller has a number of TMS99532s available at $2.75/ea, >> item # 110376664450. > > I don't recall what the Pennywhistle used. Was it NE567s or am I > thinking of another hobbyist modem design? I honestly don't recall, but I seem to recall their having been more components than a TMS99532-based design would require. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 28 20:21:26 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 18:21:26 -0700 Subject: Boustrophedonic printer errors? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20090528195326.08c834e0@mail.threedee.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20090528132854.03bf8630@mail.threedee.com>, <4A1E9EF8.3445.34B3FF4B@cclist.sydex.com>, <6.2.3.4.2.20090528195326.08c834e0@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <4A1ED626.16371.358B84D1@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 May 2009 at 19:55, John Foust wrote: > I'm not talking about a printer that can print on the return to > to the left... The Wikipedia article makes it sound like the > text prints "backwards" on every other line. Perhaps, but I don't think that's what was intended. As cool a word as "boustrophodonic" is, I think "bidirectional" is more accurate, implying nothing more than a change in direction. I think George wanted to convey the idea of the printhead moving back and forth like an ox plowing, without reference to the directionality of the text being printed itself. On the other hand, I suppose one could print English and Arabic in an interlinear fashion, but changing typewheels would drive you nuts. :) --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu May 28 20:25:04 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 21:25:04 -0400 Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: <6329F7C2-5791-4AAD-A6F2-36533BDC1F93@neurotica.com> References: <4A1EED7D.7020903@gmail.com> <0d4901c9dfdd$61f7dc50$35c219bb@desktaba> <6.2.3.4.2.20090528195858.03c24948@mail.threedee.com> <6329F7C2-5791-4AAD-A6F2-36533BDC1F93@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > ?I once knew a guy who soldered kits together by running back and forth > between his kitchen stove and the table with a flat-blade screwdriver. ?I > don't know if he ever actually completed anything. Old school. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu May 28 20:26:39 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 21:26:39 -0400 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: References: <4A1F1896.6020300@brouhaha.com> <49D46435-DFCF-45CE-8D53-6ED0F8960961@neurotica.com> <4A1ED132.7480.35780B86@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > ?I honestly don't recall, but I seem to recall their having been more > components than a TMS99532-based design would require. It was a Motorola CMOS part - 14412? -- Will From lynchaj at yahoo.com Thu May 28 20:28:03 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 21:28:03 -0400 Subject: Making vintage computers Message-ID: <589E5BE549C448589B7EEA5730BFA7EF@andrewdesktop> Hello everyone, I figured this list is big enough to ask and get your opinions. My big question is, would you buy remanufactured vintage computers ? I have [snip] Sound nice to you ? Oh, and if you can see cracks in the idea, please share them but remember, I'm stress-testing the idea, I don't want to start flame wars. Thank you very much -- Alex Lovin - www.erasereality.3x.ro -----REPLY----- Hi Alex! Your plans seem extremely ambitious. I have been designing my own home brew computer for the N8VEM home brew computing project and I know it is a lot of work. There are many details to consider when producing your own computer -- too many to even begin to list here. Have you considered just making a "simple" vintage computer like a plain Z80 S-100 board? Maybe a S-100 SRAM board or IO board? There are many of possibilities. Maybe a "big board" work alike or an ISA backplane based system using an i8086? A small SBC based on the 68008? I know there was some recent interest in an S-100 68K processor on CCTALK. Maybe that would be a fun project and work your way up to something as sophisticated as a multiprocessor design. Building a system from theory to reality is a complex undertaking so I recommend a gradual approach. Start small, make something real, and build from there to what you are describing. I don't think you'll make it in a single leap. Whatever you decide, I recommend building a working prototype *before* proceding into any sort of manufacturing. Believe me, getting a working prototype will give you large insight into how complex this really is. I build working prototypes of all my N8VEM designs and find it has a great effect of separating the fantasy from the practical reality. Its why I tend to favor simple working designs over high risk complicated systems. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu May 28 20:30:05 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 21:30:05 -0400 Subject: Making vintage computers In-Reply-To: <4A1ED045.19572.35746DCE@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4A1EA8B7.4919.34D9F281@cclist.sydex.com> <200905282009.14428.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4A1ED045.19572.35746DCE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > For certain, ILLIAC, but the 6500 was 2 6400 CPUs sharing a common > memory and PPU set. ?Doubtless there were other 60's era machines to > do the same, but no others readily come to mind. I bet Babbage and Zuse also thought the same thing. Anyway, I think Burroughs the was "first" to get real SMP, with the B5500. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 28 20:33:23 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 21:33:23 -0400 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: References: <4A1F1896.6020300@brouhaha.com> <49D46435-DFCF-45CE-8D53-6ED0F8960961@neurotica.com> <4A1ED132.7480.35780B86@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <64959316-DD3D-402B-8B8E-2248580C07E4@neurotica.com> On May 28, 2009, at 9:26 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I honestly don't recall, but I seem to recall their having been more >> components than a TMS99532-based design would require. > > It was a Motorola CMOS part - 14412? Wasn't that a baud rate generator? Or is that the 14411? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 28 20:33:56 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 21:33:56 -0400 Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: References: <4A1EED7D.7020903@gmail.com> <0d4901c9dfdd$61f7dc50$35c219bb@desktaba> <6.2.3.4.2.20090528195858.03c24948@mail.threedee.com> <6329F7C2-5791-4AAD-A6F2-36533BDC1F93@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4AFD4D51-D86B-4F2E-907A-C1DFBC855363@neurotica.com> On May 28, 2009, at 9:25 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I once knew a guy who soldered kits together by running back and >> forth >> between his kitchen stove and the table with a flat-blade >> screwdriver. I >> don't know if he ever actually completed anything. > > Old school. This would've been in the early 1980s. I'd use a different term. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 28 20:47:22 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 18:47:22 -0700 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: <64959316-DD3D-402B-8B8E-2248580C07E4@neurotica.com> References: , , <64959316-DD3D-402B-8B8E-2248580C07E4@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A1EDC3A.11304.35A35271@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 May 2009 at 21:33, Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 28, 2009, at 9:26 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > >> I honestly don't recall, but I seem to recall their having been > >> more > >> components than a TMS99532-based design would require. > > > > It was a Motorola CMOS part - 14412? > > Wasn't that a baud rate generator? Or is that the 14411? I do recall that a friend built the PW and reported to me that he thought it was the worst modem he'd ever used. I was happily using my scavenged-from-a-TI-terminal modem. I mounted it with a small power supply in one of those hammertone Bud aluminum utility boxes-- and used a 4-conductor "Jones plug" for the signal lines. --Chuck From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Thu May 28 20:54:21 2009 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 21:54:21 -0400 Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: <200905281311.n4SDBa0K020674@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <(Your message of Thu, 28 May 2009 01:21:28 PDT.) Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20090528213335.04458830@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Dennis Boone may have mentioned these words: > > One reason I never graduated to /real/ soldering stations is that I kept > > wondering "what do I do when it goes bad?". What do you guys recommend? Only loaning out the RatShack crap to friends & keeping the nice soldering station for yourself! I do have a "loaner" soldering station - my company bought it from Dalbani Electronics of Miami for about $70 shipped (to Northern Michigan - it traversed both ends of I-75! ;-) It did OK for what we used it for (much better than any RatShack crapola) but knew it was cheap and could afford it breaking. I think it paid for itself by the 2nd job we used it on. >3. FAST warmup. My Hakko goes from off to ready in 30 seconds or so. >(I hate waiting for the iron to warm up.) It also cools down faster. I timed my Hakko - it hits 700F in 20 seconds, but honestly, the tip doesn't have enough spare thermal energy to solder well until about 60 seconds. Still easily the fastest & most accurate The Dalbani noname took about 2 minutes to fully warm up, and I haven't soldered with a pencil in so long I can't remember how badly it sucked - only that it sucked. ;-) >4. Much better construction quality. > >I got whacked with a clue stick by a friend who bought a refurbished >Hakko 939 from EAE Sales. He convinced me of the above advantages, and >I bought an identical one. It's completely changed the way I solder. >I'd suggest a station with lots of wattage and variable temperature >control, though the digital readout isn't strictly necessary. > >Testimonial: Bruce at EAE is a great guy, and Knows His Stuff. He sells >refurbished (by himself, and by the factory) gear as well as new. If that wasn't me, it could have been! I've been a convert of Hakko stations & Bruce at EAE sales for years. I purchased mine at the Daytona Hamfest 5-6 years ago I'm not saying Weller isn't good stuff (my portable butane fired iron is a Weller, had it 10 years & still works quite well[1]) or that Metcal is better (never used one but heard many drool over them) but at $100 refurbished from EAE at the Fest, my Hakko was an awesome deal that I've _never_ regretted for a millisecond. With the fine electronics tip, I think the largest wire I soldered was 10 or 12 gauge. Yes, it took a little while, and that was the only time I ever saw the tip temperature drop 2 degrees F. before it recovered... I did it because someone told me it couldn't. ;-)) [1] and that's what you use to fix the electric station - make sure you have a can of Butane handy & you're golden! ;-) -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu May 28 21:08:32 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 19:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) In-Reply-To: <200905282212.n4SMCMco081219@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200905282212.n4SMCMco081219@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 May 2009, Bob Bradlee wrote: > > Google 7 inch color display and you will find a bunch of choices. > assuming LCT is close enough. > 7 color CRT are a bit harder to find but theye are around. > I've NEVER seen a 7" color VGA display. I'd hoped I was just looking in the wrong places. > an ebay search of 7 color tv came up with a few choices. > Actually, no choices. LCDs are by and large formatted for a 16:9 aspect ratio. This means that a display that's the correct width will be too narrow to properly fill the vertical space in the MPCD bezel. The original tube is still available, but the supplier wants $5000.00 for it. It's a 1:1 aspect ratio tube with a resolution of 512x512. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 28 21:22:51 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 19:22:51 -0700 Subject: Making vintage computers In-Reply-To: References: , <4A1ED045.19572.35746DCE@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4A1EE48B.28678.35C3E187@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 May 2009 at 21:30, William Donzelli wrote: > I bet Babbage and Zuse also thought the same thing. Anyway, I think > Burroughs the was "first" to get real SMP, with the B5500. I think you're right about Burroughs, but not about the B5500. I believe the military D825 had dual CPUs. --Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu May 28 21:36:47 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 19:36:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: References: <4A1EED7D.7020903@gmail.com> <0d4901c9dfdd$61f7dc50$35c219bb@desktaba> <6.2.3.4.2.20090528195858.03c24948@mail.threedee.com> <6329F7C2-5791-4AAD-A6F2-36533BDC1F93@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 May 2009, William Donzelli wrote: >> ?I once knew a guy who soldered kits together by running back and forth >> between his kitchen stove and the table with a flat-blade screwdriver. ?I >> don't know if he ever actually completed anything. > > Old school. I have an old Popular Mechanics or somesuch book from the 1940s that described "normal" soldering irons as things that you heat up in a benchtop furnace. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu May 28 21:53:34 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 22:53:34 -0400 Subject: Making vintage computers In-Reply-To: <4A1EE48B.28678.35C3E187@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4A1ED045.19572.35746DCE@cclist.sydex.com> <4A1EE48B.28678.35C3E187@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > I think you're right about Burroughs, but not about the B5500. ?I > believe the military D825 had dual CPUs. The D825 systems ("BUIC") were not true SMP, as one side was just the backup to the other? Also, D825 an B5500 were around about the same time? -- Will From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 28 21:56:00 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 22:56:00 -0400 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: <4A1F2967.5000404@brouhaha.com> References: <20090528162543.A37172@shell.lmi.net> <4A1EC223.26567.353D6FFC@cclist.sydex.com> <4A1F2967.5000404@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 8:16 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > ... 103 FSK modulation at 110 baud [*] had a lot of noise margin. > > [*] ?These were actually 110 baud, since there was a one-to-one mapping of > bits to modulation symbols. ?Later modems were often incorrectly described > as 1200 baud, 2400 baud, 9600 baud, etc., when in fact the quoted number was > their data transfer rate in bits per second, and the baud rate was a > fraction of that. I thought that started at 2400 bps (600 baud, 4 bits-per-baud)? -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 28 22:04:37 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 23:04:37 -0400 Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20090528195858.03c24948@mail.threedee.com> References: <4A1EED7D.7020903@gmail.com> <0d4901c9dfdd$61f7dc50$35c219bb@desktaba> <6.2.3.4.2.20090528195858.03c24948@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 9:01 PM, John Foust wrote: > At 04:55 PM 5/28/2009, Dave McGuire wrote: >> ?I didn't think anything could be better than my trusty Weller, >>until I tried the Metcal. > > Looks Metcals go for $100-200 on eBay. ?Is that expensive? That's not _too_ bad, but how many and what kind of tips do you get at that price. $100 and one tip would be OK, but I remember prices with an assortment of tips being closer to $300. Perhaps one side of the supply/demand equation is more favorable to the buyer now. > As a teen in the late 70s, I once tried to assemble a mail-order > electronics kit but it wouldn't work... ?I sent it back to the > company for diagnosis and was stung by the hand-written criticism > that "it looks like it was soldered with a hot brick." I still have a couple of projects I assembled in the late 1970s as a teen... I used a cheap RatShack pencil iron - they _do_ look like they were assembled with a hot brick. One is a TVT 6-5/8. I keep meaning to clean that one up but haven't found the time to do it. -ethan From brain at jbrain.com Thu May 28 22:46:54 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 22:46:54 -0500 Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: References: <4A1EED7D.7020903@gmail.com> <0d4901c9dfdd$61f7dc50$35c219bb@desktaba> <6.2.3.4.2.20090528195858.03c24948@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <4A1F5AAE.1080805@jbrain.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 9:01 PM, John Foust wrote: > >> At 04:55 PM 5/28/2009, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>> I didn't think anything could be better than my trusty Weller, >>> until I tried the Metcal. >>> >> Looks Metcals go for $100-200 on eBay. Is that expensive? >> > > That's not _too_ bad, but how many and what kind of tips do you get at > that price. > > $100 and one tip would be OK, but I remember prices with an assortment > of tips being closer to $300. Perhaps one side of the supply/demand > equation is more favorable to the buyer now. > Argh, here I thought I was in heaven with the recent WESD51 Weller purchase I made (yes, I used a a RatShack special for 20 years (1977 - 1997) and a $11.00 RatShack "More Special" for 10 more (97-07), and now I need to check out Hakko and Metcal. However, I will defend the lowly RatShack soldering iron: 1) $7-$9.00. Say what you will, but you'll never buy a Metcal if you're not even sure if you can solder. 2) They are cheap and they often break. It's easier to appreciate the value of a Weller or Metcal if you've used a RatShack iron. > >> As a teen in the late 70s, I once tried to assemble a mail-order >> electronics kit but it wouldn't work... I sent it back to the >> company for diagnosis and was stung by the hand-written criticism >> that "it looks like it was soldered with a hot brick." >> > > I still have a couple of projects I assembled in the late 1970s as a > teen... I used a cheap RatShack pencil iron - they _do_ look like they > were assembled with a hot brick. One is a TVT 6-5/8. I keep meaning > to clean that one up but haven't found the time to do it. > Guilty as charged. I am trying to throw the disposable ones away. From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 28 22:52:47 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 20:52:47 -0700 Subject: Making vintage computers In-Reply-To: References: , <4A1EE48B.28678.35C3E187@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4A1EF99F.3006.36161143@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 May 2009 at 22:53, William Donzelli wrote: > The D825 systems ("BUIC") were not true SMP, as one side was just the > backup to the other? Also, D825 an B5500 were around about the same > time? I'm calling the D825 as being earlier as it was a vacuum-tube box, while the B5500 was solid-state. In any case, the design was probably much earlier than the B5500. The Fact Sheet for the BUIC claims: "Data exchange occurs simultaneously between any memory and any computer or input/output module." That could imply that although SAGE used them as backup, they weren't necessarily limited in that way. Anyone know for certain? Could both CPUs be running at once? --Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu May 28 22:54:34 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 20:54:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: References: <4A1EED7D.7020903@gmail.com> <0d4901c9dfdd$61f7dc50$35c219bb@desktaba> <6.2.3.4.2.20090528195858.03c24948@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 May 2009, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I still have a couple of projects I assembled in the late 1970s as a > teen... I used a cheap RatShack pencil iron - they _do_ look like they > were assembled with a hot brick. One is a TVT 6-5/8. I keep meaning > to clean that one up but haven't found the time to do it. Weird. I've always been complimented on my soldering, even though I've always used a Ratshack Special. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 28 22:56:13 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 20:56:13 -0700 Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: <4A1F5AAE.1080805@jbrain.com> References: , , <4A1F5AAE.1080805@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4A1EFA6D.24890.361931AD@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 May 2009 at 22:46, Jim Brain wrote: > Guilty as charged. I am trying to throw the disposable ones away. I've got an old 40W Ungar pencil (with the ceramic screw-in elements) tucked away just in case. That was over 30 years ago; I've never had to bring it out. I also have an acetylene torch in case the Ungar fails. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 28 22:59:12 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 20:59:12 -0700 Subject: Boustrophedonic printer errors? In-Reply-To: <4A1ED626.16371.358B84D1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20090528132854.03bf8630@mail.threedee.com>, <4A1E9EF8.3445.34B3FF4B@cclist.sydex.com>, <6.2.3.4.2.20090528195326.08c834e0@mail.threedee.com> <4A1ED626.16371.358B84D1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A1F5D90.60300@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Perhaps, but I don't think that's what was intended. As cool a word > as "boustrophodonic" is, I think "bidirectional" is more accurate, > implying nothing more than a change in direction. > > My interpretation of the claim was that under certain conditions (firmware bug? misconfiguration?), it would get out of sync and actual print text in the reverse character sequence of what was intended. I've never seen this happen, but it's easy to imagine it being the result of a firmware bug. Eric From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 28 23:17:17 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 00:17:17 -0400 Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: References: <4A1EED7D.7020903@gmail.com> <0d4901c9dfdd$61f7dc50$35c219bb@desktaba> <6.2.3.4.2.20090528195858.03c24948@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 11:54 PM, David Griffith wrote: > On Thu, 28 May 2009, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> I still have a couple of projects I assembled in the late 1970s as a >> teen... I used a cheap RatShack pencil iron - they _do_ look like they >> were assembled with a hot brick. ?One is a TVT 6-5/8. ?I keep meaning >> to clean that one up but haven't found the time to do it. > > Weird. ?I've always been complimented on my soldering, even though I've > always used a Ratshack Special. I was a kid and nobody really showed me how to solder, so I had to learn the hard way. Fortunately, the job I got at 18 involved soldering 6-layer boards (adding ECO components and wires), and I got really good, really fast. Graduating from a cheap iron to a Weller EC-2000 was no small part of it. Having someone take the time to show me a few tips was another. Now, I know I could do a half-way decent job with a crappy iron, but cheap tools can only do so much. -ethan From bpettitx at comcast.net Fri May 29 00:33:47 2009 From: bpettitx at comcast.net (Billy Pettit) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 22:33:47 -0700 Subject: Making vintage computers Message-ID: Chuck Guzis wrote: I'm calling the D825 as being earlier as it was a vacuum-tube box, while the B5500 was solid-state. In any case, the design was probably much earlier than the B5500. The Fact Sheet for the BUIC claims: "Data exchange occurs simultaneously between any memory and any computer or input/output module." That could imply that although SAGE used them as backup, they weren't necessarily limited in that way. Anyone know for certain? Could both CPUs be running at once? --ChuckMy understanding was that they could and did and the results were compared real time.But I do have an off list friend who spent 6 years on SAGE sites. If no answer pops up, I'll write to him and let you know.By the way, Al recently gave him the tour of the Museum and he gave us a couple of hours on the SAGE activity around the Bay area. Fascinating.BillyBy the way, during your CDC years, did you ever work on the 160-G? It's memory/external buffer modules had nine way access and could work with up to nine CPUs. Since each memory was indepenent, that meant that all nine processors could be running out of the same memory or nine different memories at the same time. Made for some marvelous and hairy troubleshooting problems when memory conflicts occured. From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Fri May 29 00:51:00 2009 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 21:51:00 -0800 Subject: An ebay bargain (I hope!) In-Reply-To: <290F9D498C6F48A6950BE133EEBA16E0@xp1800> References: Message-ID: IN my experience, the 9010's logic probe is a kinda critical item. When 9010's and related paraphernalia are surplussed out, the logic probes have this nasty tendency to vanish. You can do alot of good testing with a 9010 and a pod for your target system, but you really won't be able to fix anything that's broke (besides memory faults) w/o the probe. They can get kinda pricey . . . . > -----Original Message----- > From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl > Sent: Thu, 28 May 2009 19:06:19 +0200 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: An ebay bargain (I hope!) > > Sorry my fault, I was confused I own a Fluke 9100A and a 9105A where the > 9100 has the harddisk and the 9105A not. > For those machines I got the pods, docs and the firm- and software files. > I do have somewhere a 9010 logicprobe. From bpettitx at comcast.net Fri May 29 00:50:25 2009 From: bpettitx at comcast.net (Billy Pettit) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 22:50:25 -0700 Subject: Boustrophedonic printer errors? Message-ID: <0EEEFBC94BA64F7FA4D48A5989E158F8@RosemarysPC> Chuck Guzis wrote: On the other hand, I suppose one could print English and Arabic in an interlinear fashion, but changing typewheels would drive you nuts. :) --Chuck Surely you remember the CDC 512? It had English-Hebrew and English-Arabic print trains. There was a small hardware option to print right to left. If I remember right, It just decremented the buffer memory. I know it only took a couple of hours to install and test. On the other hand, the few times I worked on them, I had a nightmare understanding if it was printing correctly or not since I couldn't read either language. I used to have a couple of slugs from the trains - wonder if they are still in the garage? As far as printing right to left, a lot of the dot matrix printers did this as standard features. At Fujitsu, we did an analysis and found it did not save any time. In fact it was slower! This was because the print head return was a fast function, and because most printing doesn't use a full line (136 characters). The printers had to have this ability for the Japanese and Chinese marketplace where a lot of word processing programs still did right to left. So the feature was always there but we insisted it be disabled for US sales. There was a disable switch on all the Fujitsu printers I worked on in the 1980-90's. Billy From wlsilva at sbcglobal.net Thu May 28 02:15:49 2009 From: wlsilva at sbcglobal.net (walter silva) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 00:15:49 -0700 Subject: Paper tape punch interfacing? for Tally 420 Message-ID: <7A776719C58844139E20B9FF7C310F97@walter> Hello Charles I was google searching for Tally 420 information, and saw a post you did on the 420 you were working with. Do you still have this 420 puncher? Thanks for any reply. Walter Silva From bqt at softjar.se Thu May 28 12:16:43 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 19:16:43 +0200 Subject: VT-6 kit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A1EC6FB.8030002@softjar.se> "Bob Armstrong" wrote: >> >bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> >... >>> >> Just curious... What is the VT-6 kit ? >> > ... low cost dumb terminal .... > > Dumb !!??!?! Who are you calling dumb ??? :-) > > Not so dumb, really - the software team did a great job and the current > firmware does pretty much everything a real VT220 can do. Wanna try it on some special cases that I know most emulators fail? :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu May 28 18:36:56 2009 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 16:36:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Making vintage computers Message-ID: <449961.1887.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> listen to me. Build one as a hobby, a labor of love. Then float it around the net. Don't ask for investors. The 386 is still available and is somewhat of an "advanced" processor. Incidentally the '186 is still available, if that floats your boat. Build your "dream". Then worry about financing the thousands you're unlikely to sell. Be realistic. --- On Wed, 5/27/09, Alexandru Lovin wrote: > From: Alexandru Lovin > Subject: Making vintage computers > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Wednesday, May 27, 2009, 5:24 PM > Hello everyone, > > I figured this list is big enough to ask and get your > opinions. > > My big question is, would you buy remanufactured vintage > computers ? I have > all sorts of details regarding the line of systems I'd > manufacture (most of > them from the x86 world). I spent time on the internet > looking at what is > the best video card for ISA, for PCI, for AGP 2x, for AGP > 4x or 8x (you > know, for the different voltages), what would be the best > processor for what > system, who would buy it aside from some vintage > enthusiasts, etc. > There is a follow up question, of course. If you agree with > remanufacturing > the Harris 286 at 25 MHz in a system with 16 CPUs and 16 MB > of RAM per CPU, > all connected in a cluster acting as a multi-CPU computer, > would you be able > to find some kind of investor who's willing to finance this > ? > > I'm not a spammer, just asking. I don't know the "other" > architectures so > well (except the famous 68000 CPUs that powered Amigas and > maybe PowerPC > powering Macs until recently) so I would only make > computers with old x86 > and pre-x86 processors. Ok, I forgot one: the Zilog Z80. 32 > of those in an > 8-bit system with the S-100 bus. The "new" Altair 8800, if > you will. Maybe a > new Commodore PET 2001 as well (still with a gazillion CPUs > and other such > stuff). > > The other computers would be (warning, boring list ahead): > > one with 16 386 CPUs, a lot of RAM (as far as I know, the > 386 DX > actually CAN address 4 GB of RAM) > one with 16 of the best Socket 3 486 CPUs...which are the > Pentium Overdrive > 83 MHz :) > one with 16 of the best Socket 8 CPUs (Pentium II Overdrive > 333 MHz, 66 MHz > FSB, etc.) > one with 8 Super Socket 7 K6-III+ CPUs at 600 MHz or more > (depends on the > overclocking abilities) > one with 8 FC-PGA2 Pentium III-S at 1400 MHz and 4 GB > RDRAM > one with 6 Pentium IV for Socket 478, at 3400 MHz > one with 6 Pentium IV for LGA775, at 3730 MHz > I'm not over deciding on dual cores and quad cores and tri > cores yet. Have > to wait and see if Intel comes up with an even better Core > 2 Duo Extreme > Edition, or AMD with a better Athlon 64 X2 Black Edition. > The dual cores > would have a maximum of 4 CPUs, tri-cores and quad cores > would get two. > > The computers would be completely "integrated." Onboard > everything, except > the optical drive, hard drive, ram modules, power supply > and mouse. Some > modules would be optional, like the Bluetooth, Wi-Fi or > infrared module. > > All of them would get optional 3dfx hardware (up to the > K6-III+, the > computers would only get Voodoo II accelerators, after that > it's Voodoo 5 > 6000 and then Rampage). The idea is to buy the rights to > remanufacture all > the needed chips (and ask for modifications before that, in > most cases) from > the original copyright owners. > > Sound nice to you ? Oh, and if you can see cracks in the > idea, please share > them but remember, I'm stress-testing the idea, I don't > want to start flame > wars. > > Thank you very much > -- > Alex Lovin - www.erasereality.3x.ro > From jws at jwsss.com Thu May 28 20:12:42 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 18:12:42 -0700 Subject: Boustrophedonic printer errors? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20090528195326.08c834e0@mail.threedee.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20090528132854.03bf8630@mail.threedee.com> <4A1E9EF8.3445.34B3FF4B@cclist.sydex.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20090528195326.08c834e0@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <4A1F368A.3050307@jwsss.com> John Foust wrote: > At 04:26 PM 5/28/2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 28 May 2009 at 13:30, John Foust wrote: >> >> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boustrophedon >>> >>> I found "Sometimes computer printers with a typewriter-like >>> moving type head print boustrophedon if set up wrongly." >>> >>> Which old printers might've done that? >>> >> Just about any of the old daisywheels or dot matrix printers. George >> Comstock (of Diablo) first acquainted me with the word >> "boustrophedonic"--"plowing like an ox" many years ago. >> > > OK, I'll bite. What would be set wrongly to make it do this? > > I'm not talking about a printer that can print on the return to > to the left... The Wikipedia article makes it sound like the > text prints "backwards" on every other line. > > - John > I suspect because daisywheel printers had such terms in their technical vocabulary that is why they are so rarely seen today :-) I also had a lot of trouble with the daisy wheel other such moving head printers having problems with platen positioning and running the head into the platten, hence damaging the paper due to the fact one could loosen the platen for positioning. Once the norm was just tractor wheel feed, that pretty much became a thing of the past. Jim From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 29 01:27:36 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 23:27:36 -0700 Subject: Boustrophedonic printer errors? In-Reply-To: <0EEEFBC94BA64F7FA4D48A5989E158F8@RosemarysPC> References: <0EEEFBC94BA64F7FA4D48A5989E158F8@RosemarysPC> Message-ID: <4A1F1DE8.20980.36A3EFBE@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 May 2009 at 22:50, Billy Pettit wrote: > Surely you remember the CDC 512? It had English-Hebrew and > English-Arabic print trains. There was a small hardware option to > print right to left. If I remember right, It just decremented the > buffer memory. I know it only took a couple of hours to install and > test. Yeah, I've pulled shredded ribbon out of those! Loved the smell when one got all wrapped up in the train. Given that a line was what, 132 characters long, I'm surprised that they just didn't leave it to the driver people to reverse the line in software. > As far as printing right to left, a lot of the dot matrix printers did > this as standard features. At Fujitsu, we did an analysis and found > it did not save any time. In fact it was slower! This was because > the print head return was a fast function, and because most printing > doesn't use a full line (136 characters). Is the term "logic seeking" what was being used early on to characterize the process of figuring out how to get the carriage to move the fastest? I recall an engineer sweating over some algorithm or the other trying to figure out if the moving the shortest distance (when using a DC servo) was really the fastest. I don't rememberl his conclusions, other than there was some sort of "ballistics" involved. The DC motor with optical encoder was the single most expensive component in the printer. > The printers had to have this ability for the Japanese and Chinese > marketplace where a lot of word processing programs still did right to > left. So the feature was always there but we insisted it be disabled > for US sales. There was a disable switch on all the Fujitsu printers > I worked on in the 1980-90's. I was detailed off onto a little project that never got anywhere that involved handling Kanji input, display and printing (this was about 1979 or so). Some of the 21(?)-wire printhead stuff from Oki was amazing. Of course, the Japanese needed it for those multi-stroke charactters, while the Westerners were pretty happy with 9 wires. it probably also explains why the Japanese were fairly early with graphics being standard on their personal computers. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 29 01:36:23 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 00:36:23 -0600 Subject: VT-6 kit In-Reply-To: <4A1EC6FB.8030002@softjar.se> References: <4A1EC6FB.8030002@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4A1F8267.5070806@jetnet.ab.ca> Johnny Billquist wrote: > "Bob Armstrong" wrote: > Wanna try it on some special cases that I know most emulators fail? :-) Well I do ... but not tonight. > Johnny PS. Still wondering ... did a VT220 work with a PDP8 running OS/8? I have a problem with bit #8 being set from the PDP. Ben. PS... I was going to type OS/9 thinking of the 6809. . From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 29 01:38:29 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 23:38:29 -0700 Subject: Making vintage computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A1F2075.10655.36ADEAAC@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 May 2009 at 22:33, Billy Pettit wrote: > --ChuckMy understanding was that they could and did and the results > were compared real time.But I do have an off list friend who spent 6 > years on SAGE sites. If no answer pops up, I'll write to him and let > you know.By the way, That would be nice to know! > By the way, during your CDC years, did you ever work > on the 160-G? It's memory/external buffer modules had nine way access > and could work with up to nine CPUs. Since each memory was > indepenent, that meant that all nine processors could be running out > of the same memory or nine different memories at the same time. Made > for some marvelous and hairy troubleshooting problems when memory > conflicts occured. Was the 160G a NASA special? I've heard of it, but never seen one. Multiple CPUs sharing memory seems not to be an unknown concept at CDC. Didn't the 8090 also have an option for two CPUs on the same memory? --Chuck From lists at databasics.us Fri May 29 01:40:40 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 20:40:40 -1000 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: <4A1EC223.26567.353D6FFC@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20090528162543.A37172@shell.lmi.net> <4A1EC223.26567.353D6FFC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A1F8368.1010107@databasics.us> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 28 May 2009 at 16:29, Fred Cisin wrote: > > >> We saw him dial, and put the handset into the cradle, but he did NOT >> shut the lid. The notch is there for a reason. If you don't close >> the lid, ambient noise, such as a nearby printer or 026, can be a >> problem. >> > > Yeah Fred, but a modern laptop isn't nearly as noisy as an ASR33! I > don't recall Silent 700 terminals having any such lid on the acoustic > coupler. The ASR I used in high school, and the one I bought, both had acoustic couplers that had rubber seals around both sides, and fit a Western Electric simple phone precisely. As a matter of fact, when you would remove the phone, it would make a sucking kind of 'pop' noise when the phone came out of the cradle. There was no lid involved. A picture of one of these beasts prior to restoration is available at: http://www.pdp8.net/asr33/pics/old_front.shtml?large The rubber cups are missing, though... Warren From lists at databasics.us Fri May 29 01:59:31 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 20:59:31 -1000 Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: References: <4A1EED7D.7020903@gmail.com> <0d4901c9dfdd$61f7dc50$35c219bb@desktaba> <6.2.3.4.2.20090528195858.03c24948@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <4A1F87D3.7040607@databasics.us> David Griffith wrote: > Weird. I've always been complimented on my soldering, even though > I've always used a Ratshack Special. Soldering skill is independent of the quality of the soldering iron. The speed of the work? Not so much. Warren From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri May 29 04:29:04 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 10:29:04 +0100 Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: References: <4A1EED7D.7020903@gmail.com> <0d4901c9dfdd$61f7dc50$35c219bb@desktaba> <6.2.3.4.2.20090528195858.03c24948@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <1243589344.1093.2.camel@elric> On Thu, 2009-05-28 at 20:54 -0700, David Griffith wrote: > On Thu, 28 May 2009, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > I still have a couple of projects I assembled in the late 1970s as a > > teen... I used a cheap RatShack pencil iron - they _do_ look like they > > were assembled with a hot brick. One is a TVT 6-5/8. I keep meaning > > to clean that one up but haven't found the time to do it. > > Weird. I've always been complimented on my soldering, even though I've > always used a Ratshack Special. Maplin here, but same idea - el-cheapo iron and a steady point. I've never had any problems, even when doing quite fine SMD work. Gordon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri May 29 04:49:49 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 10:49:49 +0100 Subject: receptacles (was IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1243590589.1093.5.camel@elric> On Thu, 2009-05-28 at 19:45 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > At 02:23 PM 5/27/2009, Tony Duell wrote: > > >110V AC supplies are not uncommon in the UK. The reason is that > > >industrial portable power tools (electric drills, etc) are 110V, [...] > > >The transformers are normally in bright yellow plastic boxes (yellow > > >being the colour associated with 110V on connectors, etc), and are rated > > >at about 3kVA (there are much larger ones, that's the smallest you'll > > >easily find). They're not cheap, but an awful lot of hacker-types will > > >have one. > > > > Interesting! I had no idea. So this is how they'll run US classic > > computers? > > > Indeed. I have a cable with a suitable plug on one end to fit the > transformer (It's normally called a 'BS4343 plug' over here after the > British Standard that refers to it , there is a CEN number, but I can't > rememebr it :-)) and a US cable-mount socket on the other. Very useful > for running US stuff. I have a friend who works for an equipment hire company that deals with touring bands, who has such a device. It's a four-way "US socket" extension with a ceeform plug on the other end, to plug into a yellow tranny and provide power for personal equipment that bands bring over from the US. Some people are very touchy about only using *their* hair-straighteners, apparently... Gordon From drb at msu.edu Fri May 29 06:49:50 2009 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 07:49:50 -0400 Subject: Boustrophedonic printer errors? In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 28 May 2009 18:21:26 PDT.) <4A1ED626.16371.358B84D1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4A1ED626.16371.358B84D1@cclist.sydex.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20090528132854.03bf8630@mail.threedee.com>, <4A1E9EF8.3445.34B3FF4B@cclist.sydex.com>, <6.2.3.4.2.20090528195326.08c834e0@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <200905291149.n4TBnotU017006@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > On the other hand, I suppose one could print English and Arabic in an > interlinear fashion, but changing typewheels would drive you nuts. :) Gulf Data sold Vector Graphic systems with bilingual English/Arabic Memorite word processing in the Middle East. The common printer was the Qume Sprint 3 daisywheel. This setup could print bilingually on the same line, but I'm sure changing the wheels would have driven you nuts if you did lots of that. De From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 29 07:23:04 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 08:23:04 -0400 Subject: VT-6 kit In-Reply-To: <4A1F8267.5070806@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4A1EC6FB.8030002@softjar.se> <4A1F8267.5070806@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 2:36 AM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > PS. Still wondering ... did a VT220 work with a PDP8 running OS/8? Yes. I did it in the 1980s (in large part because the VT220 had 20mA built-in). I don't remember the terminal settings, though. What did not work was the VTEDIT TECO macro. There's something inexact about the VT52 emulation in a VT220. The cheapest solution at the time was to get a real VT52 (about $50 to buy and $30 to ship). That's what I did. If you are just doing rather ordinary things with OS/8, a VT220 should work just fine. -ethan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri May 29 09:35:10 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 07:35:10 -0700 Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: <4A1F0B83.20807@databasics.us> References: <60DBB9CE-B8D7-428C-A598-23158BC13A5C@feedle.net> <20090528121855.D24934@shell.lmi.net> <4A1F0B83.20807@databasics.us> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > From: lists at databasics.us > > Fred Cisin wrote: >> Why is it, that people with broken Wellers throw them out, instead of >> soldering the repairs needed? > > To provide cheap people like me with quality equipment.... and thank > God for that! > > > Warren Hi I recall my first weller. It seems that the base was the most expensive part. The tips and handles could be had for less than $20 or so. I bought a 24V transformer at radio shack, connected a line cord and was in business. I recall the cheap RS transformer ran cooler than later real bases I got. Go figure. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail? has ever-growing storage! Don?t worry about storage limits. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage1_052009 From billdeg at degnanco.com Fri May 29 09:44:25 2009 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 10:44:25 -0400 Subject: Schematic Donner 3500 Portable Analog Computer Message-ID: <258e8b61$324a9a2c$3560cd0e$@com> Schematic for Donner 3500 Portable Analog Computer http://vintagecomputer.net/donner/donner_3500_schematic.pdf This was pieced together from three scans due to paper size. Pictures: http://vintagecomputer.net/donner/donner_3500_schematic.pdf (Instruction manual at some point soon) -Bill From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri May 29 10:10:10 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 11:10:10 -0400 Subject: Early SMP Message-ID: > I'm calling the D825 as being earlier as it was a vacuum-tube box, > while the B5500 was solid-state. ?In any case, the design was > probably much earlier than the B5500. Maybe - hard to say, being a government-to-civilian (apples-to-oranges) comparison. > That could imply that although SAGE used them as backup, ?they > weren't necessarily limited in that way. I think that actual usage would count in my argument. Otherwise, you could start including lots of machines earlier to either of the two Burroughs boxes we are talking about - SMP 709s? > Anyone know for certain? ?Could both CPUs be running at once? I would actually like to see some more detailed docs on BUIC - there seems to be very little available. Hell, I do not even know what BUIC modules and equipment looks like, and have probably passed some of it up, or worse, scrapped it. -- Will From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri May 29 10:19:20 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 16:19:20 +0100 Subject: Schematic Donner 3500 Portable Analog Computer In-Reply-To: <258e8b61$324a9a2c$3560cd0e$@com> References: <258e8b61$324a9a2c$3560cd0e$@com> Message-ID: <1243610360.1093.19.camel@elric> On Fri, 2009-05-29 at 10:44 -0400, Bill Degnan wrote: > Schematic for Donner 3500 Portable Analog Computer > > http://vintagecomputer.net/donner/donner_3500_schematic.pdf > > This was pieced together from three scans due to paper size. One thing that strikes me as odd is that they have a whacking great series resistor for running the fan on 240V, instead of using the mains transformer as an autotransformer... Gordon From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri May 29 10:37:14 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 08:37:14 -0700 Subject: Schematic Donner 3500 Portable Analog Computer In-Reply-To: <258e8b61$324a9a2c$3560cd0e$@com> References: <258e8b61$324a9a2c$3560cd0e$@com> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > From: billdeg at degnanco.com > > Schematic for Donner 3500 Portable Analog Computer > > http://vintagecomputer.net/donner/donner_3500_schematic.pdf > > This was pieced together from three scans due to paper size. > > Pictures: > http://vintagecomputer.net/donner/donner_3500_schematic.pdf > > (Instruction manual at some point soon) > > -Bill > Hi That is really great. I'm relatively sure the program board I have is for a 3500 ( I wasn't able to save the machine that went with it ). When I get a chance I'll see if it is the same. I was able to save the program board and two initial value pot strips. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail? has ever-growing storage! Don?t worry about storage limits. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage1_052009 From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri May 29 10:43:10 2009 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 11:43:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Early SMP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 29 May 2009, William Donzelli wrote: >> I'm calling the D825 as being earlier as it was a vacuum-tube box, >> while the B5500 was solid-state. ?In any case, the design was >> probably much earlier than the B5500. The D825 was definitely not tubes (I trained on one at Keesler AFB in 1982. Burroughs called it HTDL (Hybrid Transistor Diode Logic). http://bitsavers.vt100.net/pdf/burroughs/D8xx/TR61-58B_D_825_Modular_Proc_Sys_1961.pdf http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/BRL64-b.html#BURROUGHS-D825 > I would actually like to see some more detailed docs on BUIC - there > seems to be very little available. Hell, I do not even know what BUIC > modules and equipment looks like, and have probably passed some of it > up, or worse, scrapped it. Here are some pictures from UMN: http://snuffy.lib.umn.edu/image/srch/bin/Dispatcher?mode=600&id=cb000080 http://snuffy.lib.umn.edu/image/srch/bin/Dispatcher?mode=600&id=cb000078 http://snuffy.lib.umn.edu/image/srch/bin/Dispatcher?mode=600&id=cb000079 http://snuffy.lib.umn.edu/image/srch/bin/Dispatcher?mode=600&id=cb000076 Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Fri May 29 11:38:48 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 12:38:48 -0400 Subject: Early SMP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200905291638.n4TGccFS006245@keith.ezwind.net> Looks like the D825 in 1963 was the first pratical MP system. A nice summery can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/l92hnc aka http://wiki.cc.gatech.edu/folklore/index.php? title=Some_Burroughs_Transistor_Computers&printable=yes#The_D825 About 10 years later IBM shipped a bunch of 370/158 and 168s as MPs and APs The MPs were 2 standalone CPUs frames bound at the Hip, with an MP frame, while the APs were a second ALU frame that attached as an extension to a single CPU frame. In the case of the IBM MPs there was not only 2 processors but there was two I/O busses for that matter two complete systems. These were very popular with Banking and large billing applications. The other Bob The other Bob From IanK at vulcan.com Fri May 29 12:02:00 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 10:02:00 -0700 Subject: StorageWorks key In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:38 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: StorageWorks key > > On May 28, 2009, at 3:32 PM, Ian King wrote: > > I picked up a neat StorageWorks tower on ePay a while back, and > > decided to hook it up to my VAX-4000/300 through a HSD05. I went > > to install the HSD05 and realized that the front (and rear) bezel > > locks to the body of the tower, precluding removal of the drives. > > I don't have that key.... > > > > Is this another one of those keys like the XX2247 that fits every > > PDP-11 front panel lock? If so, is there anyone who can (a) > > suggest a source or (b) perhaps offer up such a thing? > > If it takes the plastic keys used on many VAXen and some PDP-11s > (11/24 and 11/44), if you can find out for sure, I can likely send > you one of those. > My 11/44 uses a barrel key (which now that you mention it ISTR is plastic), but this is a flat key. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 29 12:07:26 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 13:07:26 -0400 Subject: StorageWorks key In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CE5818D-A1D9-4D2C-84B6-176DB5323589@neurotica.com> On May 29, 2009, at 1:02 PM, Ian King wrote: >>> I picked up a neat StorageWorks tower on ePay a while back, and >>> decided to hook it up to my VAX-4000/300 through a HSD05. I went >>> to install the HSD05 and realized that the front (and rear) bezel >>> locks to the body of the tower, precluding removal of the drives. >>> I don't have that key.... >>> >>> Is this another one of those keys like the XX2247 that fits every >>> PDP-11 front panel lock? If so, is there anyone who can (a) >>> suggest a source or (b) perhaps offer up such a thing? >> >> If it takes the plastic keys used on many VAXen and some PDP-11s >> (11/24 and 11/44), if you can find out for sure, I can likely send >> you one of those. > My 11/44 uses a barrel key (which now that you mention it ISTR is > plastic), but this is a flat key. Oh, bizarre. I don't know what that key is, then. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From chd_1 at nktelco.net Fri May 29 12:21:46 2009 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 13:21:46 -0400 Subject: ASR33 print cylinder Message-ID: <4A2019AA.9030109@nktelco.net> Any one have a spare they would like to sell? From sethm at loomcom.com Fri May 29 13:39:38 2009 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 11:39:38 -0700 Subject: VT-6 kit In-Reply-To: References: <4A1EC6FB.8030002@softjar.se> <4A1F8267.5070806@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 5:23 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > The cheapest solution at > the time was to get a real VT52 (about $50 to buy and $30 to ship). > That's what I did. Oh if only I could find a $50 VT52 in this day and age! :^) Actually, I've never seen one for sale in all the time I've been interested in old computers (starting in 1993). How common are they these days? On a scale from "Hen's teeth" to "unobtanium"? -Seth From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 29 13:48:03 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 14:48:03 -0400 Subject: VT-6 kit In-Reply-To: References: <4A1EC6FB.8030002@softjar.se> <4A1F8267.5070806@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5423CD3E-ECDA-4AB7-AD9F-02AD3D7E5885@neurotica.com> On May 29, 2009, at 2:39 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: >> The cheapest solution at >> the time was to get a real VT52 (about $50 to buy and $30 to ship). >> That's what I did. > > Oh if only I could find a $50 VT52 in this day and age! :^) > > Actually, I've never seen one for sale in all the time I've been > interested in old computers (starting in 1993). How common are they > these days? On a scale from "Hen's teeth" to "unobtanium"? I just got two for free, but that was a very unusual case. I'd say they're pretty tough to find, but not impossible. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 29 13:55:28 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 14:55:28 -0400 Subject: Classic dumb terminals (was Re: VT-6 kit) Message-ID: On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 2:39 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 5:23 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> The cheapest solution at >> the time was to get a real VT52 (about $50 to buy and $30 to ship). >> That's what I did. > > Oh if only I could find a $50 VT52 in this day and age! :^) This was nearly 25 years ago, FWIW (and, yes, I still have it)... the VT220 was out, and those that bought new, bought that. Those that didn't, bought VT100s or some functional clone (CiTOH 101, Wyse-50, etc). It was the nadir of the VT52. Nobody wanted them, nobody wanted to support them (software or hardware). It was a function of exactly how old they were - old enough, but not too old. > Actually, I've never seen one for sale in all the time I've been > interested in old computers (starting in 1993). ?How common are they > these days? ?On a scale from "Hen's teeth" to ?"unobtanium"? Dunno. I got one in a rescue a few years back, but I haven't tried to buy one since about 1985 or so. I don't need lots of them, but the one I got looks really nice on my Datasystems Desk (the model on the cover of the 1978/1979 Small Computer Handbook). -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 29 12:23:48 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 18:23:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Paper tape punch interfacing? for Tally 420 In-Reply-To: <7A776719C58844139E20B9FF7C310F97@walter> from "walter silva" at May 28, 9 00:15:49 am Message-ID: > > Hello Charles > > I was google searching for Tally 420 information, and saw a post you did = > on the 420 you were working with. > > Do you still have this 420 puncher? If it's any help, I am pretty sure I have a Tally 420 punch and the (service) manual. I might even be able to find them ;-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 29 12:26:52 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 18:26:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Boustrophedonic printer errors? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20090528132854.03bf8630@mail.threedee.com> from "John Foust" at May 28, 9 01:30:21 pm Message-ID: > > > While reading : > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boustrophedon > > I found "Sometimes computer printers with a typewriter-like > moving type head print boustrophedon if set up wrongly." > > Which old printers might've done that? Hmmm.. Many dot matrix printers (impact and injet) print bidirectionally, but I've never come across one (no matter how old) that didn't buffer the data intenrally, so the host sent the characters in left-to-right order for all line,s and the printer put them on the paper in the appropriate way. I can imaging a firmware problem in the printer could cause it to print some lines backwards (but wouldn't it also print the chracters left-right reversed, which is not strictly boustrophedon?), but that's a fault I've never seen. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 29 12:28:51 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 18:28:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: <20090528121855.D24934@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 28, 9 12:19:56 pm Message-ID: > > Why is it, that people with broken Wellers throw them out, instead of > soldering the repairs needed? I guess for the same reason they throw out other things with totally trivial faults. THey don't think it's worth their time to find said fault (for all it would take 10 minutes maximum). Still, their loss is our gain... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 29 12:39:10 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 18:39:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Making vintage computers In-Reply-To: <4A1EE9AD.7040902@gmail.com> from "Sridhar Ayengar" at May 28, 9 03:44:45 pm Message-ID: > There ARE multi-CPU vintage systems. Some of the CPUs in question were > many, many boards full of chips. I thnik you need to distinguish between : Multi-chip CPUs, like many older minicomputers, where the CPU may well be hundreds of chips, but where there is really only one CPU running one program at a time And Multiple CPUs, where the CPUs may be single chips or boards of many chips, but where there are several programs running at the same time,. one on each CPU. And then you have the case where there are several microporcessors in the cabinet, but some of then run programs from ROM only (you can't run user programs on them) for things like I/O, disk control, etc. There are 'classsic' examples of both IMHO. Or at least I assume things like older transputers, DAPs, etc are now 'classic' -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 29 12:48:26 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 18:48:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: receptacles (was IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived) In-Reply-To: <4A1F0925.9020505@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 28, 9 10:59:01 pm Message-ID: > > On 28/05/2009 19:45, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Indeed. I have a cable with a suitable plug on one end to fit the > > transformer (It's normally called a 'BS4343 plug' over here after the > > British Standard that refers to it , there is a CEN number, but I can't > > rememebr it :-)) > > IEC 309, or more correctly (and up to date) IEC 60309 or EN 60309. > Often called "Commando" plugs though that's a trademark of a particular MK, IIRC. I've used genuine Commado plugs, and they're pretty nice... > manufacturer. That range covers 240V as well as 110V and covers > three-phase versions as well. And lower voltage versions. They're colour-coded (yellow = 110V, blue = 230V, red = 415V IIRC), and the polarising key means you can't plug one colour (voltage) plug into another socket. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 29 13:48:54 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 19:48:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: StorageWorks key In-Reply-To: from "Ian King" at May 29, 9 10:02:00 am Message-ID: > My 11/44 uses a barrel key (which now that you mention it ISTR is plastic),= > but this is a flat key. =20 So presumably it's a a 'Yale type' key (as they're commonly called over here). A flat key with notches along the top edge to lift the tumblers to the right height. I can't believe it's a very complicated or secure lock (cheap locks, with looser mechanical tolerances are much easier to pick for obvious reasons). My guess is you could easliy learn to pick it. And once you've got it open, take the lcok apart and you could probably make a key. I assuem there's mo other way into the cabinet. One of my machines had the back cover held on by a lock for which I didn't ahve the key, but turning the machine on its side revealed 2 metal plates that the rear cover hookded on to. Unscrewing those alooed me to remvoe the cover without the key, at which point it ws trivial to dismantle the lock to make a key. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 29 13:49:57 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 19:49:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: <64959316-DD3D-402B-8B8E-2248580C07E4@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at May 28, 9 09:33:23 pm Message-ID: > > It was a Motorola CMOS part - 14412? > > Wasn't that a baud rate generator? Or is that the 14411? No, the 14412 is a modem IC, and the 14411 is a buad rate generator. I've used both not that long ago... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 29 13:32:36 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 19:32:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: <4A1F1896.6020300@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at May 28, 9 04:04:54 pm Message-ID: > > David Griffith wrote: > > It certainly is of interest. I'd like to get one of those for > > myself. It shouldn't be too terribly hard to homebrew one of these > > things into a shoeshine box, right? > "Pennywhistle", Popular Electronics, March 1976. > > If you don't really need a design that old, you might be able to find a > TMS99532 or Am7910 FSK modem chip. You're making me feel very old. I used a 7910 the other week.. Somewhere I still have some blank PCBs for the 'Maplin Modem' project. This was a 300 baud modem (CCITT tones) using the Motorola 14412 chip They couldn't get the demodulator section of said chip to work properly, so they added a 2211 or something. I probably still have a 14412 in the spares box. -tony From ploopster at gmail.com Fri May 29 14:12:57 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 15:12:57 -0400 Subject: Making vintage computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A2033B9.60007@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> There ARE multi-CPU vintage systems. Some of the CPUs in question were >> many, many boards full of chips. > > I thnik you need to distinguish between : > > Multi-chip CPUs, like many older minicomputers, where the CPU may well be > hundreds of chips, but where there is really only one CPU running one > program at a time > > And > > Multiple CPUs, where the CPUs may be single chips or boards of many > chips, but where there are several programs running at the same time,. > one on each CPU. And then you have the case where there are several > microporcessors in the cabinet, but some of then run programs from ROM > only (you can't run user programs on them) for things like I/O, disk > control, etc. I was actually referring to the second. I don't consider the first one to be multi-CPU at all. I was mostly referring to S/370 systems with which I have personal experience, although I understand they weren't, by any means, the first. Peace... Sridhar From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri May 29 15:21:40 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 16:21:40 -0400 Subject: receptacles (was IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200905291621.40913.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 29 May 2009, Tony Duell wrote: > > On 28/05/2009 19:45, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Indeed. I have a cable with a suitable plug on one end to fit the > > > transformer (It's normally called a 'BS4343 plug' over here after > > > the British Standard that refers to it , there is a CEN number, > > > but I can't rememebr it :-)) > > > > IEC 309, or more correctly (and up to date) IEC 60309 or EN 60309. > > Often called "Commando" plugs though that's a trademark of a > > particular > > MK, IIRC. I've used genuine Commado plugs, and they're pretty nice... Aha. These look like they're what I've only heard referred to as "pin and sleeve" connectors; stuff like the Hubbell HBL460P9W that IBM likes to put on equipment. I hadn't heard of their IEC standard # before. > > manufacturer. That range covers 240V as well as 110V and covers > > three-phase versions as well. > > And lower voltage versions. They're colour-coded (yellow = 110V, blue > = 230V, red = 415V IIRC), and the polarising key means you can't plug > one colour (voltage) plug into another socket. If they're the same connector as I'm familiar with, they're also water-tight connectors. For stuff that doesn't need the high-current connectors (60A or higher), I'm much happer with NEMA twist-lock connectors (usually the L5-20, L5-30, L6-20 or L6-30); they're a lot smaller (and lighter) and easier to connect/disconnect. There's even a 50A 3-phase version in various voltage (eg http://search.ebay.com/320375960704), though it's nearly the size of the equivalent 60A IEC-60309 plug. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri May 29 15:23:45 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 16:23:45 -0400 Subject: StorageWorks key In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200905291623.45795.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 29 May 2009, Ian King wrote: > My 11/44 uses a barrel key (which now that you mention it ISTR is > plastic), but this is a flat key. I'd suggest trying a CH751 (the same flat key that DEC used on a lot of things, from an 11/780's doors, to large tape libraries). Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 29 15:38:32 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 13:38:32 -0700 Subject: Making vintage computers In-Reply-To: <4A2033B9.60007@gmail.com> References: , <4A2033B9.60007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A1FE558.25095.39AF24FA@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 May 2009 at 15:12, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I was actually referring to the second. I don't consider the first > one to be multi-CPU at all. I was mostly referring to S/370 systems > with which I have personal experience, although I understand they > weren't, by any means, the first. I was trying to restrict myself to multiple processing units sharing a common memory and peripherals. Would we now call that 'multi- core?" --Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri May 29 15:51:04 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 21:51:04 +0100 Subject: receptacles (was IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived) In-Reply-To: <200905291621.40913.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200905291621.40913.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4A204AB8.9010406@dunnington.plus.com> On 29/05/2009 21:21, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Aha. These look like they're what I've only heard referred to as "pin > and sleeve" connectors; stuff like the Hubbell HBL460P9W that IBM likes > to put on equipment. I hadn't heard of their IEC standard # before. Yes, they are the same series. > If they're the same connector as I'm familiar with, they're also > water-tight connectors. Only certain types are watertight. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From emu at e-bbes.com Fri May 29 16:58:20 2009 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 15:58:20 -0600 Subject: OT (?) MVME 167 EPROMs Message-ID: <4A205A7C.1050108@e-bbes.com> Hi all, I know it is a long shot, but anybody out here has the original 167Bug EPROMS for the MVME167 Boards ? (not twenty years old yet, but getting there ;-)) Thanks From doc at vaxen.net Fri May 29 17:10:30 2009 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 17:10:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: StorageWorks key In-Reply-To: <4CE5818D-A1D9-4D2C-84B6-176DB5323589@neurotica.com> References: <4CE5818D-A1D9-4D2C-84B6-176DB5323589@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 May 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 29, 2009, at 1:02 PM, Ian King wrote: >>>> I picked up a neat StorageWorks tower on ePay a while back, and >>>> decided to hook it up to my VAX-4000/300 through a HSD05. I went >>>> to install the HSD05 and realized that the front (and rear) bezel >>>> locks to the body of the tower, precluding removal of the drives. >>>> I don't have that key.... >>>> >>>> Is this another one of those keys like the XX2247 that fits every >>>> PDP-11 front panel lock? If so, is there anyone who can (a) >>>> suggest a source or (b) perhaps offer up such a thing? >>> >>> If it takes the plastic keys used on many VAXen and some PDP-11s >>> (11/24 and 11/44), if you can find out for sure, I can likely send >>> you one of those. >> My 11/44 uses a barrel key (which now that you mention it ISTR is >> plastic), but this is a flat key. > > Oh, bizarre. I don't know what that key is, then. It's about as complex as a CrackerJack padlock key... I may still have a couple. I'll look tonight. Doc Shipley From IanK at vulcan.com Fri May 29 17:30:06 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 15:30:06 -0700 Subject: StorageWorks key In-Reply-To: <200905291623.45795.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200905291623.45795.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: Gee, I have a couple of those (hanging off our 11/785s). :-) I'll give it a try - thanks for the suggestion. -- Ian > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Finnegan > Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 1:24 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: StorageWorks key > > On Friday 29 May 2009, Ian King wrote: > > My 11/44 uses a barrel key (which now that you mention it ISTR is > > plastic), but this is a flat key. > > I'd suggest trying a CH751 (the same flat key that DEC used on a lot of > things, from an 11/780's doors, to large tape libraries). > > Pat > -- > Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From eric at brouhaha.com Fri May 29 18:40:04 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 16:40:04 -0700 Subject: Boustrophedonic printer errors? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A207254.7060709@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > I can imaging a firmware problem in the printer could cause it to print > some lines backwards (but wouldn't it also print the chracters left-right > reversed, which is not strictly boustrophedon?), Depends on where in the firmware the bug is. And of course for other printer technologies (e.g. daisy wheel), it's generally not possible to reverse the individual characters. > but that's a fault I've never seen. > Me either. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri May 29 18:44:58 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 16:44:58 -0700 Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A20737A.3040202@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > I guess for the same reason they throw out other things with totally > trivial faults. THey don't think it's worth their time to find said fault > (for all it would take 10 minutes maximum). Still, their loss is our gain... > A friend recently told me about one of his friends buying a high-end Japanese-made electron microscope from Signetics as surplus many years ago. It didn't work, so he helped his friend fix it. There was a potted high-voltage power supply that wasn't working, and based on the symptoms he came up with a hypothesis that the module was internally miswired. They spent a lot of time depotting the module, and sure enough, it was miswired exactly as he predicted. They fixed that, and it worked perfectly. Apparently at some later date they went back to Signetics surplus, and the people there were very surprised, and perhaps somewhat upset, to hear that it had been repaired, and how trivial the fault was. They scrapped it because they'd never been able to get it to work! From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 29 19:01:29 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 00:01:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: when soldering irons go bad Message-ID: <87614.67703.qm@web23408.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Two things spring to mind: 1) Did he ever stab himself with the screwdriver while running? 2) Did he think of getting a portable gas cooker/handheld? gas torch? Or weren't they available back then? (Sorry, I don't know when 'then' was) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Fri, 29/5/09, Dave McGuire wrote: From: Dave McGuire Subject: Re: when soldering irons go bad To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Friday, 29 May, 2009, 2:13 AM ? I once knew a guy who soldered kits together by running back and forth between his kitchen stove and the table with a flat-blade screwdriver.? I don't know if he ever actually completed anything. ? ? ? ? ???-Dave --Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 29 19:18:31 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 17:18:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: <87614.67703.qm@web23408.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <87614.67703.qm@web23408.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090529171508.X88423@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 30 May 2009, Andrew Burton wrote: > Two things spring to mind: > 1) Did he ever stab himself with the screwdriver while running? > 2) Did he think of getting a portable gas cooker/handheld? gas torch? Or > weren't they available back then? (Sorry, I don't know when 'then' was) When were portable gas cooker/handheld gas torch NOT available? Propane (and/or butane) is the current standard, but petrol or kerosene operated "BLOW TORCH" (REAL "blow torch", not LPG bottle!) has been available for a long time. 3) Why not drag the table closer to the stove? From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 29 19:54:02 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 20:54:02 -0400 Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: <87614.67703.qm@web23408.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <87614.67703.qm@web23408.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On May 29, 2009, at 8:01 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > Two things spring to mind: > > 1) Did he ever stab himself with the screwdriver while running? Possibly. That'd explain a lot. > 2) Did he think of getting a portable gas cooker/handheld gas > torch? Or weren't they available back then? (Sorry, I don't know > when 'then' was) Well, he told me the story when I was about 16 (~1985), so it was sometime before that. He was in his 30s, so I guess that establishes and early bound. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From tiggerlasv at aim.com Fri May 29 23:53:55 2009 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 00:53:55 -0400 Subject: Classic dumb terminals (was Re: VT-6 kit) Message-ID: <8CBAEF9C573A81B-16D8-4267@webmail-mh16.sysops.aol.com> VT52's are nice, but I'd rather have a VT55. I've been keeping my eye out for one, but haven't seen one for many years. From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat May 30 00:05:15 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 22:05:15 -0700 Subject: OT (?) MVME 167 EPROMs In-Reply-To: <4A205A7C.1050108@e-bbes.com> References: <4A205A7C.1050108@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <4A20BE8B.1020800@mail.msu.edu> e.stiebler wrote: > Hi all, > I know it is a long shot, but anybody out here has the original 167Bug > EPROMS for the MVME167 Boards ? > (not twenty years old yet, but getting there ;-)) > > Thanks > > I have an MVME167 board, and I'd be happy to dump the EPROMs for you; I don't know if they have the original 167Bug EPROMs, though (are you looking for a specific version?) Thanks, Josh From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat May 30 00:16:40 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 22:16:40 -0700 Subject: Schematic Donner 3500 Portable Analog Computer References: <258e8b61$324a9a2c$3560cd0e$@com> Message-ID: <4A20C139.808BF4B8@cs.ubc.ca> Bill Degnan wrote: > > Schematic for Donner 3500 Portable Analog Computer > > http://vintagecomputer.net/donner/donner_3500_schematic.pdf But it's missing the interesting part: the schematic for the amps isn't shown! Looks like a relay in the grey can amidst the tubes, I wonder if it's for chopper stabilisation or compute/hold/reset switching. > This was pieced together from three scans due to paper size. > > Pictures: > http://vintagecomputer.net/donner/donner_3500_schematic.pdf (found pictures here: http://vintagecomputer.net/donner/) Interesting to see another variation on the educational analog computer. Sometimes I wonder if there weren't more educational models built than production models, although it may be one of those 'what has survived' issues. I have to finish up the writeup and photos of my Tyrotek sometime and put them up on the web. > (Instruction manual at some point soon) I would be interested if there are some example programs in there, to try on the Tyrotek. From mross666 at hotmail.com Fri May 29 20:04:14 2009 From: mross666 at hotmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 01:04:14 +0000 Subject: Some blinkenlights for entertainment... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBtXLZcY_bM Makes a change from pdp... :-) William Donzelli: ping! Please email me at mike at corestore dot org - I may just have something for you... Mike http://www.corestore.org > From: cctech-request at classiccmp.org > Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 69, Issue 48 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 12:00:01 -0500 > > Send cctech mailing list submissions to > cctech at classiccmp.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctech > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > cctech-request at classiccmp.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > cctech-owner at classiccmp.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of cctech digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo (Chuck Guzis) > 2. Re: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) (John Honniball) > 3. EPROM for Linger 6502 Terminal (M H Stein) > 4. Re: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo (David Griffith) > 5. Re: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) (Alexandre Souza) > 6. Re: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) (Alexandre Souza) > 7. Re: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) (Gene Buckle) > 8. Re: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) (Alexandre Souza) > 9. Re: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) (Bob Bradlee) > 10. Re: receptacles (was IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived) (Pete Turnbull) > 11. Re: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo (Brent Hilpert) > 12. Re: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo (Dave McGuire) > 13. Re: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo (Chuck Guzis) > 14. Re: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo (Chuck Guzis) > 15. Re: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo (John Foust) > 16. Re: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo (Dave McGuire) > 17. Re: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo (William Donzelli) > 18. Re: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo (Dave McGuire) > 19. Re: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo (Chuck Guzis) > 20. Re: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) (Gene Buckle) > 21. RE: An ebay bargain (I hope!) (N0body H0me) > 22. Re: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo (Warren Wolfe) > 23. Re: VT-6 kit (Ethan Dicks) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 13:38:43 -0700 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: Re: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <4A1E93E3.24953.348876B3 at cclist.sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On 28 May 2009 at 15:56, Golan Klinger wrote: > > > Disclaimer: I wouldn't normally post this sort of thing but I'm > > confident it will be of interest to more than a few on this list. > > > > "1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo" > > > > This brought up the question of "whatever happened to all of the gray > Bell Dataphones? (e.g. 401E). They used to be as common as > cockroaches. > > I haven't seen one in many years. > > --Chuck > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 21:55:07 +0100 > From: John Honniball > Subject: Re: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Message-ID: <4A1EFA2B.3000606 at gifford.co.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > > Gene Buckle wrote: > > I'd love to find a 7" color VGA display. Even a 7" LCD panel with a 4:3 > > aspect ratio would work. > > I have an Olivetti VGA colour monitor with a 9-inch screen. > If you want to find one like it, the model number is: > > CD.9.A./2709 > > Hope that helps! > > -- > John Honniball > coredump at gifford.co.uk > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 14:47:23 -0400 > From: M H Stein > Subject: EPROM for Linger 6502 Terminal > To: "'cctalk at classiccmp.org'" > Message-ID: <01C9DFA3.4D5A5A00 at MSE_D03> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Speaking of terminal kits, by any chance does anyone out there have a > Linger 6502 terminal kit? I'm looking for an image of the the AT keyboard > version of the EPROM... > > mike > **************************** > ---------------Original Message(s) > Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 22:00:57 -0400 > From: Ethan Dicks > Subject: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) > > On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 9:53 PM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca > wrote: > > Now back to putting together my SPARE TIME GIZMOS dumb terminal once I print > > out the online PDF manual. > > I just got my VT-6 partial kit today - time for me to start assembling it! > > -ethan > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 14:18:19 -0700 (PDT) > From: David Griffith > Subject: Re: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > On Thu, 28 May 2009, Golan Klinger wrote: > > > Disclaimer: I wouldn't normally post this sort of thing but I'm > > confident it will be of interest to more than a few on this list. > > > > "1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo" > > > > It certainly is of interest. I'd like to get one of those for myself. It > shouldn't be too terribly hard to homebrew one of these things into a > shoeshine box, right? > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 18:24:35 -0300 > From: "Alexandre Souza" > Subject: Re: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Message-ID: <0cd101c9dfda$eaec2960$35c219bb at desktaba> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > >One problem is that the video circuit for compact Macs is bizarre. > >The display circuit was optimized for square pixels at 72 dpi on the > >tube. Here's the stats of the Mac video circuit I was able to dredge > >up... > > Do what I did. Subistitute the entire analog board for a small (9") vga > mono monitor :o) > > All (or most) picture tubes are compatible. I have an old mac 128 who > came to me without the analog board. When it happened, it was hard (and > expensive) as hell to put my hands on an analog board. Since I wanted that > mac to play, I gutted an old 9" mono vga monitor I had and installed > everything but the picture tube on the mac. It is my "secondary PC monitor" > up to today, running windows and like :D > > If you want a colour monitor, install everything - incluiding the > picture tube. > > >As for the keyboard, the original Mac keyboard (128K and 512K) lacks > >arrow keys, a control key, function keys and a keypad. The Mac Plus > > Why would I use the (arrrrggghhhh) original mac keyboard? The newer mac > keyboards are nice, and you can always build an ADB -> PS/2 adapter. Or mod > the source of the VT-5 to use an ADB keyboard :) I took a (very) fast look > on the schematics, seems that the keyboard decoder is very simple. > > Or, do like me, use a PC keyboard :o) > > >EDT user. I don't know anything about Mac keyboard protocols or > >signaling method, but with the modular-jack keyboards (pre-ADB), it's > >probably similar enough to what everyone else did (power, ground, > >either data+clock or bi-directional data over the 4 wires) that it > >shouldn't be too hard to reverse-engineer. > > ADB is not hard, it is well documented in apple's site! > > >If you could find an old 9" mono VGA monitor, that might be easy to > >physically adapt to an old Mac case, but I don't remember those being > >too common, even back when they were making them (since they were > >really only popular with hardcore DOS users). > > you can use a 12" monitor circuit with a 9" tube. Did I made it easier > for you? :o) > > I have some photos of mine, I can send to you, my site is offline > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 18:25:52 -0300 > From: "Alexandre Souza" > Subject: Re: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Message-ID: <0d1d01c9dfdb$39656cf0$35c219bb at desktaba> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > > The problem, of course, is finding terminal emulation software that'll > > emulate weird terminal types (non VT100/ANSI emulation). That's what I > > - Telix? > - Terminate? (EXCELLENT!!!!!!) > - Telemate? > - Procomm Plus? > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 14:48:27 -0700 (PDT) > From: Gene Buckle > Subject: Re: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > On Thu, 28 May 2009, John Honniball wrote: > > > Gene Buckle wrote: > >> I'd love to find a 7" color VGA display. Even a 7" LCD panel with a 4:3 > >> aspect ratio would work. > > > > I have an Olivetti VGA colour monitor with a 9-inch screen. > > If you want to find one like it, the model number is: > > > John, thanks for the tip. Unfortunately, a 7" diagonal monitor is the > largest I can use. It's a replacement for the 1:1 aspect ratio screen > that was originally installed in the MPCD of the F-15C I'm rebuilding into > a simulator. I've got a 7" monochrome display shoe-horned into the > chassis now, but it really should be a color display. > > g. > > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 18:59:17 -0300 > From: "Alexandre Souza" > Subject: Re: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Message-ID: <0d8601c9dfdf$9af81360$35c219bb at desktaba> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > > you can use a 12" monitor circuit with a 9" tube. Did I made it easier for > > you? :o) > >I can understand how that can be so, but I didn't assume it was true. > >I certainly have never tried it (though now I might). > > Most of mono monitors are the same. Never had a different tube that I > couldn't exchange between boards (but you have to use the same yoke coil > from the board - you just swap the glass tube). I used tubes from 5" to 12" > in the same board. All of then worked the same, with retouches on the pots > (width, height, bright, so on) > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 18:12:33 -0400 > From: "Bob Bradlee" > Subject: Re: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <200905282212.n4SMCMco081219 at keith.ezwind.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > On Thu, 28 May 2009 14:48:27 -0700 (PDT), Gene Buckle wrote: > > >On Thu, 28 May 2009, John Honniball wrote: > > >> Gene Buckle wrote: > >>> I'd love to find a 7" color VGA display. Even a 7" LCD panel with a 4:3 > >>> aspect ratio would work. > >> > >> I have an Olivetti VGA colour monitor with a 9-inch screen. > >> If you want to find one like it, the model number is: > >> > >John, thanks for the tip. Unfortunately, a 7" diagonal monitor is the > >largest I can use. It's a replacement for the 1:1 aspect ratio screen > >that was originally installed in the MPCD of the F-15C I'm rebuilding into > >a simulator. I've got a 7" monochrome display shoe-horned into the > >chassis now, but it really should be a color display. > > >g. > > Google 7 inch color display and you will find a bunch of choices. > assuming LCT is close enough. > 7 color CRT are a bit harder to find but theye are around. > > an ebay search of 7 color tv came up with a few choices. > > Auto Vackup camera with 7 display > http://www.i4u.com/article6741.html > > Door camera with 7 color display > http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/211479480/Color_Video_Door_Phone_7_inch.html > > > http://www.diytrade.com/china/4/products/4802363/7inch_in_VGA_LCD_PC_AV.html > > ASUS Eee PC 4G (7-Inch Display > http://www.amazon.com/7-Inch-Display-Mobile-Processor-Preloaded/dp/B000YEMKGY > > Bob > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 22:59:01 +0100 > From: Pete Turnbull > Subject: Re: receptacles (was IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived) > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4A1F0925.9020505 at dunnington.plus.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 28/05/2009 19:45, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Indeed. I have a cable with a suitable plug on one end to fit the > > transformer (It's normally called a 'BS4343 plug' over here after the > > British Standard that refers to it , there is a CEN number, but I can't > > rememebr it :-)) > > IEC 309, or more correctly (and up to date) IEC 60309 or EN 60309. > Often called "Commando" plugs though that's a trademark of a particular > manufacturer. That range covers 240V as well as 110V and covers > three-phase versions as well. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 16:03:47 -0700 > From: Brent Hilpert > Subject: Re: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo > To: General at invalid.domain, "Discussion at invalid.domain":On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts > Message-ID: <4A1F1852.355206C9 at cs.ubc.ca> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > David Griffith wrote: > > > > On Thu, 28 May 2009, Golan Klinger wrote: > > > > > Disclaimer: I wouldn't normally post this sort of thing but I'm > > > confident it will be of interest to more than a few on this list. > > > > > > "1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo" > > > > > > > It certainly is of interest. I'd like to get one of those for myself. It > > shouldn't be too terribly hard to homebrew one of these things into a > > shoeshine box, right? > > I have one of the same model as shown in the video (Livermore Data Systems > model A). Component date codes in mine are 1969/70, the 1964 suggestion may be > a little early, but I guess it depends on how long they were producing them > for. Very elaborate woodwork for the task (solid teak or walnut with dovetail > joints) but I suppose the wood case had some acoustic advantages. 13 transistors. > > (pedantic: His technical description was a little off, it's FSK, not an > 'interrupted' tone.) > > Does anyone know if the frequencies for the 110 and 300 baud modem standards > were the same or different? > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 19:10:56 -0400 > From: Dave McGuire > Subject: Re: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <49D46435-DFCF-45CE-8D53-6ED0F8960961 at neurotica.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > On May 28, 2009, at 7:04 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > >> It certainly is of interest. I'd like to get one of those for > >> myself. It shouldn't be too terribly hard to homebrew one of > >> these things into a shoeshine box, right? > > "Pennywhistle", Popular Electronics, March 1976. > > > > If you don't really need a design that old, you might be able to > > find a TMS99532 or Am7910 FSK modem chip. > > An eBay seller has a number of TMS99532s available at $2.75/ea, > item # 110376664450. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 16:56:03 -0700 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: Re: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <4A1EC223.26567.353D6FFC at cclist.sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On 28 May 2009 at 16:29, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > We saw him dial, and put the handset into the cradle, but he did NOT > > shut the lid. The notch is there for a reason. If you don't close > > the lid, ambient noise, such as a nearby printer or 026, can be a > > problem. > > Yeah Fred, but a modern laptop isn't nearly as noisy as an ASR33! I > don't recall Silent 700 terminals having any such lid on the acoustic > coupler. > > --Chuck > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 14 > Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 18:00:18 -0700 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: Re: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <4A1ED132.7480.35780B86 at cclist.sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On 28 May 2009 at 19:10, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > > If you don't really need a design that old, you might be able to > > > find a TMS99532 or Am7910 FSK modem chip. > > > > An eBay seller has a number of TMS99532s available at $2.75/ea, > > item # 110376664450. > > I don't recall what the Pennywhistle used. Was it NE567s or am I > thinking of another hobbyist modem design? > > --Chuck > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 15 > Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 19:51:35 -0500 > From: John Foust > Subject: Re: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo > To: > Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090528194927.08c868f0 at mail.threedee.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > At 03:38 PM 5/28/2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >On 28 May 2009 at 15:56, Golan Klinger wrote: > >> "1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo" > >> > > > >This brought up the question of "whatever happened to all of the gray > >Bell Dataphones? (e.g. 401E). They used to be as common as > >cockroaches. I haven't seen one in many years. > > A while back I mentioned my Anderson Jacobson ADC 300: > > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2000-October/159208.html > > It looks like: > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/102635865 > > - John > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 16 > Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 21:15:00 -0400 > From: Dave McGuire > Subject: Re: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > On May 28, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >>> If you don't really need a design that old, you might be able to > >>> find a TMS99532 or Am7910 FSK modem chip. > >> > >> An eBay seller has a number of TMS99532s available at $2.75/ea, > >> item # 110376664450. > > > > I don't recall what the Pennywhistle used. Was it NE567s or am I > > thinking of another hobbyist modem design? > > I honestly don't recall, but I seem to recall their having been > more components than a TMS99532-based design would require. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 17 > Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 21:26:39 -0400 > From: William Donzelli > Subject: Re: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > ?I honestly don't recall, but I seem to recall their having been more > > components than a TMS99532-based design would require. > > It was a Motorola CMOS part - 14412? > > -- > Will > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 18 > Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 21:33:23 -0400 > From: Dave McGuire > Subject: Re: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <64959316-DD3D-402B-8B8E-2248580C07E4 at neurotica.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > On May 28, 2009, at 9:26 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > >> I honestly don't recall, but I seem to recall their having been more > >> components than a TMS99532-based design would require. > > > > It was a Motorola CMOS part - 14412? > > Wasn't that a baud rate generator? Or is that the 14411? > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 19 > Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 18:47:22 -0700 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: Re: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <4A1EDC3A.11304.35A35271 at cclist.sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On 28 May 2009 at 21:33, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > On May 28, 2009, at 9:26 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > > >> I honestly don't recall, but I seem to recall their having been > > >> more > > >> components than a TMS99532-based design would require. > > > > > > It was a Motorola CMOS part - 14412? > > > > Wasn't that a baud rate generator? Or is that the 14411? > > I do recall that a friend built the PW and reported to me that he > thought it was the worst modem he'd ever used. I was happily using > my scavenged-from-a-TI-terminal modem. I mounted it with a small > power supply in one of those hammertone Bud aluminum utility boxes-- > and used a 4-conductor "Jones plug" for the signal lines. > > --Chuck > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 20 > Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 19:08:32 -0700 (PDT) > From: Gene Buckle > Subject: Re: VT-6 kit (was Re: Making vintage computers) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > On Thu, 28 May 2009, Bob Bradlee wrote: > > > > > Google 7 inch color display and you will find a bunch of choices. > > assuming LCT is close enough. > > 7 color CRT are a bit harder to find but theye are around. > > > I've NEVER seen a 7" color VGA display. I'd hoped I was just looking in > the wrong places. > > > an ebay search of 7 color tv came up with a few choices. > > > Actually, no choices. LCDs are by and large formatted for a 16:9 aspect > ratio. This means that a display that's the correct width will be too > narrow to properly fill the vertical space in the MPCD bezel. The > original tube is still available, but the supplier wants $5000.00 for it. > It's a 1:1 aspect ratio tube with a resolution of 512x512. > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 21 > Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 21:51:00 -0800 > From: N0body H0me > Subject: RE: An ebay bargain (I hope!) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > > IN my experience, the 9010's logic probe is a kinda > critical item. When 9010's and related paraphernalia > are surplussed out, the logic probes have this nasty > tendency to vanish. > > You can do alot of good testing with a 9010 and a pod for > your target system, but you really won't be able to fix > anything that's broke (besides memory faults) w/o the > probe. > > They can get kinda pricey . . . . > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl > > Sent: Thu, 28 May 2009 19:06:19 +0200 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: RE: An ebay bargain (I hope!) > > > > Sorry my fault, I was confused I own a Fluke 9100A and a 9105A where the > > 9100 has the harddisk and the 9105A not. > > For those machines I got the pods, docs and the firm- and software files. > > I do have somewhere a 9010 logicprobe. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 22 > Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 20:40:40 -1000 > From: Warren Wolfe > Subject: Re: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4A1F8368.1010107 at databasics.us> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 28 May 2009 at 16:29, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > > > >> We saw him dial, and put the handset into the cradle, but he did NOT > >> shut the lid. The notch is there for a reason. If you don't close > >> the lid, ambient noise, such as a nearby printer or 026, can be a > >> problem. > >> > > > > Yeah Fred, but a modern laptop isn't nearly as noisy as an ASR33! I > > don't recall Silent 700 terminals having any such lid on the acoustic > > coupler. > > The ASR I used in high school, and the one I bought, both had acoustic > couplers that had rubber seals around both sides, and fit a Western > Electric simple phone precisely. As a matter of fact, when you would > remove the phone, it would make a sucking kind of 'pop' noise when the > phone came out of the cradle. There was no lid involved. A picture of > one of these beasts prior to restoration is available at: > > http://www.pdp8.net/asr33/pics/old_front.shtml?large > > The rubber cups are missing, though... > > > Warren > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 23 > Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 08:23:04 -0400 > From: Ethan Dicks > Subject: Re: VT-6 kit > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 2:36 AM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca > wrote: > > PS. Still wondering ... did a VT220 work with a PDP8 running OS/8? > > Yes. I did it in the 1980s (in large part because the VT220 had 20mA > built-in). I don't remember the terminal settings, though. > > What did not work was the VTEDIT TECO macro. There's something > inexact about the VT52 emulation in a VT220. The cheapest solution at > the time was to get a real VT52 (about $50 to buy and $30 to ship). > That's what I did. > > If you are just doing rather ordinary things with OS/8, a VT220 should > work just fine. > > -ethan > > > End of cctech Digest, Vol 69, Issue 48 > ************************************** _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_BR_life_in_synch_052009 From bqt at softjar.se Fri May 29 04:25:45 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 11:25:45 +0200 Subject: Making vintage computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A1FAA19.1020908@softjar.se> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Thursday 28 May 2009, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Doug Jackson wrote: >>> I would personally consider purchasing a re manufactured Vintage >>> computer - >>> >>> Something running, say, a 6502, 8080, 8085, or Z80. Definitely >>> not interested in anything post 8085. >>> >>> Not sure what I would do with an ISA bus. Not enough pins on my >>> processor to drive all of the address bits. >>> Multi CPU systems are probably to far out of the intent of the >>> Vintage realm for me to consider. >> There ARE multi-CPU vintage systems. Some of the CPUs in question >> were many, many boards full of chips. > > The first (SMP) one that comes to mind is a VAX 8800 (I only have 1/2, > aka an 8700), or my VAXstation 3520/3540. > > Of course, there were other non-SMP systems (like the Dual VAX > (11/780)), and systems that had multiple CPUs but weren't really > dual-processor (DEC Rainbow). What about PDP-10 systems? Those could be SMP systems. I know of one person who ran a 3xKI10 system with TOPS-10. True SMP... And then we have the PDP-11/74 (up to 4 CPUs), but they are probably even harder to find than KI10 systems. DEC were doing SMP long before they even started spelling "VAX". :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From chrise at pobox.com Fri May 29 07:34:35 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 07:34:35 -0500 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: <4A1F1852.355206C9@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4A1F1852.355206C9@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20090529123435.GJ31310@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (05/28/2009 at 04:03PM -0700), Brent Hilpert wrote: > > (pedantic: His technical description was a little off, it's FSK, not an > 'interrupted' tone.) Agreed. He started to get on track but then fell off again when he started saying the tones were a function of the voltage level coming in on the RS232 port and that because his laptop had too low of a voltage on that port, he was getting the wrong tones. This whole discussion in the context of the modem being analog-- implying that he was getting tones that were off frequency due to the incorrect voltage level. I don't think it went quite like that. > Does anyone know if the frequencies for the 110 and 300 baud modem standards > were the same or different? They were the same. Bell 103 tones... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_103 I have several early Multi-Tech acoustic couplers here... FM300 which was indeed analog-- done entirely with opamps as active filters and then FM30 which was Multi-Tech's first digital discriminator design. I spent a fair number of my formative years working at Multi-Tech. I was there when the FCC ruling changed allowing customer owned equipment to connect directly to the phone line. That was a big day... and almost instantly spelled the end of acoustic couplers :-) Chris -- Chris Elmquist From Peter at sound-smith.com Fri May 29 21:04:39 2009 From: Peter at sound-smith.com (Peter Ledermann) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 22:04:39 -0400 Subject: S100 haul - board inventory Message-ID: <0KKF00DAGPRWDU70@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Dear Sir: I am wondering if you have any of the Cromemco D+7A I-O boards left??? I would like to purchase one or two.... Many thanks - Sincerely, Peter Ledermann President/Chief Engineer The Soundsmith Corporation 8 John Walsh Blvd. Suite 417 Peekskill NY 10566 USA 1-800 942 8009 or 914 739 2885 fax 914 739 5204 To view our YouTube from "T.H.E. Show"... Click This ! To hear our RADIO Interview, Click This ! DirectGrace Records......Recordings to Rescue Children Our Products: http://www.sound-smith.com/products/ Our Home page: www.sound-smith.com Our NEW Strain Gauge Cartridge www.sound-smith.com/cartridges/sg.html Our Moving Iron Cartridges: www.sound-smith.com/cartridges/ Cartridge Retipping/Rebuilding?? www.sound-smith.com/retip/ From bqt at softjar.se Sat May 30 02:58:36 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 09:58:36 +0200 Subject: VT-6 kit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A20E72C.3060308@softjar.se> "bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca" wrote: > Johnny Billquist wrote: >> > "Bob Armstrong" wrote: > >> > Wanna try it on some special cases that I know most emulators fail? :-) > > Well I do ... but not tonight. It still takes several days for my posts to actually show up, it seems. Anyone else have the same problem? Anyway, I sent a list of things for Bob to test. >> > Johnny > PS. Still wondering ... did a VT220 work with a PDP8 running OS/8? Certainly. > I have a problem with bit #8 being set from the PDP. That's called 7 bits, mark parity. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Sat May 30 03:02:12 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 10:02:12 +0200 Subject: VT-6 kit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A20E804.5070107@softjar.se> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 2:36 AM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca > wrote: >> > PS. Still wondering ... did a VT220 work with a PDP8 running OS/8? > > Yes. I did it in the 1980s (in large part because the VT220 had 20mA > built-in). I don't remember the terminal settings, though. > > What did not work was the VTEDIT TECO macro. There's something > inexact about the VT52 emulation in a VT220. The cheapest solution at > the time was to get a real VT52 (about $50 to buy and $30 to ship). > That's what I did. Hmm, I'm pretty sure I've used a VT220 with VTEDIT. I could try again tonight... (Well, okay, I don't have any VT220 anymore, but I have VT320, VT420, VT510, VT520 and VT525 to test with.) > If you are just doing rather ordinary things with OS/8, a VT220 should > work just fine. I never saw any problems at all with anything, using a VT100 or more modern, with OS/8. Most programs expected it to be in VT52-mode, though. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat May 30 04:37:11 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 10:37:11 +0100 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: <20090529123435.GJ31310@n0jcf.net> References: <4A1F1852.355206C9@cs.ubc.ca> <20090529123435.GJ31310@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <1243676231.1093.23.camel@elric> On Fri, 2009-05-29 at 07:34 -0500, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Thursday (05/28/2009 at 04:03PM -0700), Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > > (pedantic: His technical description was a little off, it's FSK, not an > > 'interrupted' tone.) > > Agreed. He started to get on track but then fell off again when he started > saying the tones were a function of the voltage level coming in on the > RS232 port and that because his laptop had too low of a voltage on that > port, he was getting the wrong tones. This whole discussion in the context > of the modem being analog-- implying that he was getting tones that were > off frequency due to the incorrect voltage level. I don't think it went > quite like that. So, you can't see a possible set of circumstances where having the wrong voltage coming in the serial port could cause the frequency shift to be wrong? How clever do you think the tone generator side is? Gordon From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat May 30 08:37:46 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 09:37:46 -0400 Subject: receptacles (was IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived) In-Reply-To: <200905291621.40913.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200905291621.40913.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: > Aha. ?These look like they're what I've only heard referred to as "pin > and sleeve" connectors; stuff like the Hubbell HBL460P9W that IBM likes > to put on equipment. ?I hadn't heard of their IEC standard # before. I am always on the lookout for these, for obvious reasons. Well, the receptacles, anyway. > If they're the same connector as I'm familiar with, they're also > water-tight connectors. I actually have a few new marine grade (watertight) 480 VAC receptacle/plug/box sets I need to sell or trade. Yes, I could use them, put the hardware is just different enough that the set must use the watertight boxes, and not regular boxes. I could use watertight boxes anyway, but I do not want to have a pierside IBM installation. -- Will From tiggerlasv at aim.com Sat May 30 08:52:05 2009 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 09:52:05 -0400 Subject: Some blinkenlights for entertainment... Message-ID: <8CBAF44F36C6C05-268-27D9@WEBMAIL-MZ20.sysops.aol.com> On Fri May 29 20:04:14 CDT 2009, Mike Ross wrote: > Here you go: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBtXLZcY_bM > Makes a change from pdp... :-) That would have been a really nice video clip of a DECSystem, if he would have moved that peksy piece of IBM hardware out of the way. It kept blocking the view of the "real" machine. ;-) *Scamper* T From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat May 30 09:54:23 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 10:54:23 -0400 Subject: VT-6 kit In-Reply-To: <4A20E804.5070107@softjar.se> References: <4A20E804.5070107@softjar.se> Message-ID: On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 4:02 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Hmm, I'm pretty sure I've used a VT220 with VTEDIT. I could try again > tonight... (Well, okay, I don't have any VT220 anymore, but I have VT320, > VT420, VT510, VT520 and VT525 to test with.) I have no datapoints for those other terminals, but I'd be happy to hear your results. They may work just fine. I only ever tested the VT220 specifically. If I can ever carve out some PDP-8 time, I want to run some VTEDIT tests now that I have lots of terminals lying around. Back in the day, I only had a current-loop console cable, so my choice of terminals was limited. Now, of course, I'd just whip up a EIA cable, but then, I would have had to buy one. >> If you are just doing rather ordinary things with OS/8, a VT220 should >> work just fine. > > I never saw any problems at all with anything, using a VT100 or more modern, > with OS/8. Most programs expected it to be in VT52-mode, though. Yes. I don't know if I ever saw an OS/8 application that tried to write ANSI terminal sequences. I first ran into those with VMS 3.x and RT-11 a few years after I first started playing with OS/8. -ethan From rick at rickmurphy.net Sat May 30 11:20:12 2009 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 12:20:12 -0400 Subject: VT-6 kit In-Reply-To: References: <4A20E804.5070107@softjar.se> Message-ID: <200905301620.n4UGKDah032464@rickmurphy.net> At 10:54 AM 5/30/2009, Ethan Dicks wrote: >I don't know if I ever saw an OS/8 application that tried to >write ANSI terminal sequences. I first ran into those with VMS 3.x >and RT-11 a few years after I first started playing with OS/8. I have a copy of OS/8 TECO that generates ANSI sequences for watch mode, with a modified copy of VTEDIT that works with it. It works fine with SIMH and PuTTY, but it'd be interesting to see if it works with a real VT220. The RK05 image at http://www.rickmurphy.net/advent/advent.rk05 has a copy. -Rick From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 30 12:51:09 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 18:51:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: <1243676231.1093.23.camel@elric> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at May 30, 9 10:37:11 am Message-ID: > So, you can't see a possible set of circumstances where having the wrong > voltage coming in the serial port could cause the frequency shift to be > wrong? I think it;'s unlikely. One of my old modems has a transmitter that's essentially a VCO. The control voltage comes from a couple of pots (one for mark, the other for space), these are swtiched by the incoming RS232 signal. But that signal is first applied to a transistor that's either cut off or staturated, so there's no way to get an 'in between' tone. > > How clever do you think the tone generator side is? Given that the RS232 spec is pretty wide (+/-3V to +/-25V, and the +ve and -ve votltages don't have to be the same), no modem should make any assuptions about the exact voltage on the TxD line. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 30 12:36:17 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 18:36:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Making vintage computers In-Reply-To: <4A1FAA19.1020908@softjar.se> from "Johnny Billquist" at May 29, 9 11:25:45 am Message-ID: > What about PDP-10 systems? Those could be SMP systems. I know of one > person who ran a 3xKI10 system with TOPS-10. True SMP... > And then we have the PDP-11/74 (up to 4 CPUs), but they are probably > even harder to find than KI10 systems. For non-SMP systems, there's the PDP11/10S. There's a link on one of the CPU boards in that machine that disabled the bus arbiter and makes it run as a slave processor on the Unibus of some other PDP11. I've never heard of anyone doing it, but it's in the printset... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 30 12:40:18 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 18:40:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Making vintage computers In-Reply-To: <4A2033B9.60007@gmail.com> from "Sridhar Ayengar" at May 29, 9 03:12:57 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> There ARE multi-CPU vintage systems. Some of the CPUs in question were > >> many, many boards full of chips. > > > > I thnik you need to distinguish between : > > > > Multi-chip CPUs, like many older minicomputers, where the CPU may well be > > hundreds of chips, but where there is really only one CPU running one > > program at a time > > > > And > > > > Multiple CPUs, where the CPUs may be single chips or boards of many > > chips, but where there are several programs running at the same time,. > > one on each CPU. And then you have the case where there are several > > microporcessors in the cabinet, but some of then run programs from ROM > > only (you can't run user programs on them) for things like I/O, disk > > control, etc. > > I was actually referring to the second. I don't consider the first one > to be multi-CPU at all. I was mostly referring to S/370 systems with I agree. It's just that yuor original posting could have been taken to imply a 'multi-CPU' was a CPU made from many chips, even if it was really just one processor. -tony From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat May 30 13:39:20 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 11:39:20 -0700 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo References: <4A1F1852.355206C9@cs.ubc.ca> <20090529123435.GJ31310@n0jcf.net> <1243676231.1093.23.camel@elric> Message-ID: <4A217D57.49DD2D71@cs.ubc.ca> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > On Fri, 2009-05-29 at 07:34 -0500, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > On Thursday (05/28/2009 at 04:03PM -0700), Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > > > > (pedantic: His technical description was a little off, it's FSK, not an > > > 'interrupted' tone.) > > > > Agreed. He started to get on track but then fell off again when he started > > saying the tones were a function of the voltage level coming in on the > > RS232 port and that because his laptop had too low of a voltage on that > > port, he was getting the wrong tones. This whole discussion in the context > > of the modem being analog-- implying that he was getting tones that were > > off frequency due to the incorrect voltage level. I don't think it went > > quite like that. > > So, you can't see a possible set of circumstances where having the wrong > voltage coming in the serial port could cause the frequency shift to be > wrong? > > How clever do you think the tone generator side is? It's not inconceivable and the circuit is not overly clever, but it is good enough to have a trip point over a 0.03 volt range, between +1.26 to +1.29 volts. The tones are pretty solid +/- 4 Hz between there and +/- 25 volts; +/-1 Hz for +/- 3 to 25 volts, so all well within RS-232 requirements. (As measured on my unit, I suppose the utube guy's unit could have a problem.) Here's the schematic for amusement (note measurements), pretty simple except for the specced coils: http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/LDSModelAModem.gif The reason the tone changes when he plugs in the RS-232 connector in the video is the open-circuit state for the modem modulator is SPACE, while idle-state for RS-232 is MARK. From frustum at pacbell.net Sat May 30 14:07:16 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 14:07:16 -0500 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: <4A217D57.49DD2D71@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4A1F1852.355206C9@cs.ubc.ca> <20090529123435.GJ31310@n0jcf.net> <1243676231.1093.23.camel@elric> <4A217D57.49DD2D71@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4A2183E4.7000605@pacbell.net> Brent Hilpert wrote: ... > Here's the schematic for amusement (note measurements), pretty simple except > for the specced coils: > > http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/LDSModelAModem.gif The power supply has a multi stage filter to get rid of ripple. I would have thought investing in the extra diodes to make a bridge instead of the half wave rectifiers would have been cheaper than the extra C's & R's. From bpettitx at comcast.net Sat May 30 20:47:17 2009 From: bpettitx at comcast.net (Billy Pettit) Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 18:47:17 -0700 Subject: Cute Little Terminal Message-ID: I seem to remember that someone on this list was a specialist collector of terminals. If he is still here, I have a nice little portable terminal he can have for what I paid for it ($5.00) plus shipping costs. I bought it for the parts, but it seems a shame to destroy it. It is a Superprint by Ultratec. 8.5 by 13 by 3.5 inches. Has a keyboard - the part I bought it for, a small printer - 3" wide, 20 character display (14 segments) and an acoustic coupler. The PCB is fairly recent, uses an 8049 derivative. Please contact me off line if you are the terminal collector and want it. Otherwise, it's slice and dice time. Billy Pettit From bqt at softjar.se Sat May 30 04:15:30 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 11:15:30 +0200 Subject: StorageWorks key In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A20F932.7020007@softjar.se> Ian King wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire >> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:38 PM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: StorageWorks key >> >> On May 28, 2009, at 3:32 PM, Ian King wrote: >>> I picked up a neat StorageWorks tower on ePay a while back, and >>> decided to hook it up to my VAX-4000/300 through a HSD05. I went >>> to install the HSD05 and realized that the front (and rear) bezel >>> locks to the body of the tower, precluding removal of the drives. >>> I don't have that key.... >>> >>> Is this another one of those keys like the XX2247 that fits every >>> PDP-11 front panel lock? If so, is there anyone who can (a) >>> suggest a source or (b) perhaps offer up such a thing? >> If it takes the plastic keys used on many VAXen and some PDP-11s >> (11/24 and 11/44), if you can find out for sure, I can likely send >> you one of those. >> > > > My 11/44 uses a barrel key (which now that you mention it ISTR is plastic), but this is a flat key. I have one, but unfortunately only one... There is no manufacturer name on it, and the only text of any kind is a number "134". I don't know if that is of any help... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Sat May 30 04:21:21 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 11:21:21 +0200 Subject: StorageWorks key In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A20FA91.3020309@softjar.se> Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> > My 11/44 uses a barrel key (which now that you mention it ISTR is >> > plastic), but this is a flat key. > > I'd suggest trying a CH751 (the same flat key that DEC used on a lot of > things, from an 11/780's doors, to large tape libraries). No, it's not the same key. The StorageWorks key is slightly smaller, and have a squarish head. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat May 30 10:27:41 2009 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 08:27:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Making vintage computers Message-ID: <748817.9274.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> the S/370 was built onto a single chip. I hope I'm not drawing a blank and actually denoting the wrong architecture (I think I got it right though). There's only a prototype though. And I know the dude that owns it (he designed it ;). Nah nah nah nah nah. --- On Fri, 5/29/09, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I was actually referring to the second. I don't > consider the first one to be multi-CPU at all. I was > mostly referring to S/370 systems with which I have personal > experience, although I understand they weren't, by any > means, the first. > > Peace... Sridhar > From chrise at pobox.com Sat May 30 17:46:19 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 17:46:19 -0500 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: <1243676231.1093.23.camel@elric> References: <4A1F1852.355206C9@cs.ubc.ca> <20090529123435.GJ31310@n0jcf.net> <1243676231.1093.23.camel@elric> Message-ID: <20090530224619.GO31310@n0jcf.net> On Saturday (05/30/2009 at 10:37AM +0100), Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > So, you can't see a possible set of circumstances where having the wrong > voltage coming in the serial port could cause the frequency shift to be > wrong? > > How clever do you think the tone generator side is? Well, as Tony replied-- I think that the RS232 input is a logic level. It's not an analog level. So, you are going to get either the mark tone or the space tone and not something in between. I think this situation was just a poor explaination of what went wrong. Whatever miscable situation he had caused him to generate the opposite tone of what he was expecting but not a tone that was off frequency from one of the two possibilities. He was also off the mark (so to speak) by attempting to explain it as on-off keying rather than the FSK that it really is. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From legalize at xmission.com Sun May 31 09:40:48 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 08:40:48 -0600 Subject: IBM System 36 on ebay Message-ID: Item # 380124577027 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From lproven at gmail.com Sun May 31 09:56:16 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 15:56:16 +0100 Subject: Big Mess Of Wires - a homebrew 8-bitter Message-ID: <575131af0905310756v623ce46aq8916e80a07377ca1@mail.gmail.com> I am sure lots of you know about this already, but I was impressed... http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/05/homebrewed-cpu/ http://www.stevechamberlin.com/cpu/2009/05/28/bmow-project-summary/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From pcw at mesanet.com Sun May 31 10:52:56 2009 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 08:52:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What the heck is this? In-Reply-To: <4A20FA91.3020309@softjar.se> References: <4A20FA91.3020309@softjar.se> Message-ID: http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/sub/product_detail.aspx?id=80-542-043&searchtable=1&sortExpression=&SortASC=&pageSize=50¤tPageIndex=0&searchNAP= Peter Wallace From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 31 11:11:08 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 09:11:08 -0700 Subject: What the heck is this? In-Reply-To: References: , <4A20FA91.3020309@softjar.se>, Message-ID: <4A2249AC.3939.4306F982@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 May 2009 at 8:52, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/sub/product_detail.aspx?id=80-542- > 043&searchtable=1&sortExpression=&SortASC=&pageSize=50¤tPageInde > x=0&searchNAP= The display is a givewaway. It appears to be a 70's era word processor. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Sun May 31 11:20:19 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 10:20:19 -0600 Subject: What the heck is this? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 31 May 2009 08:52:56 -0700. Message-ID: This was just discussed recently: Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 16:14:12 +0200 From: Pontus Pihlgren Subject: Re: What is this computer (picture) Id: <20090519141412.GA1137 at Update.UU.SE> Refs: --------- On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 09:54:41AM -0400, 9000 VAX wrote: > The link is > > http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/4hm2nlcHCZcrQtJeehbykA?feat=directlink > > On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 9:36 AM, 9000 VAX wrote: > > > Does it ring a bell? > > Not sure if it has a bell, but a quick google tells me it is a Princeton Gamma Tech System 4: http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/dec.html Cheers, Pontus -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun May 31 11:26:56 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 09:26:56 -0700 Subject: What the heck is this? References: <4A20FA91.3020309@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4A22AFD1.13A2749A@cs.ubc.ca> "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > > http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/sub/product_detail.aspx?id=80-542-043&searchtable=1&sortExpression=&SortASC=&pageSize=50¤tPageIndex=0&searchNAP= I don't know, it looks like you're going to have to buy it and then figure it out, how could you resist? More seriously, googling brings up this lead on the company: http://www.pgt.com/nuclear/sys4000.html The company logo, as much as it can be made out, appears identical. The company profile gives another hint: "Princeton Gamma-Tech has been a leader in the field of semiconductor gamma- and X-ray detectors for over 30 years." Perhaps the "customer service and Reachback program" would provide an answer. From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 31 11:38:20 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 09:38:20 -0700 Subject: What the heck is this? In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <4A22500C.4799.431FE1DA@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 May 2009 at 10:20, Richard wrote: > Not sure if it has a bell, but a quick google tells me it is a > Princeton Gamma Tech System 4: > > http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/dec.html Sonofagun. Scratch that WP, then :) --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 31 12:08:49 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 13:08:49 -0400 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: <20090530224619.GO31310@n0jcf.net> References: <4A1F1852.355206C9@cs.ubc.ca> <20090529123435.GJ31310@n0jcf.net> <1243676231.1093.23.camel@elric> <20090530224619.GO31310@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <2B524E4E-1782-40D6-AAD2-3E10449A028A@neurotica.com> On May 30, 2009, at 6:46 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: >> So, you can't see a possible set of circumstances where having the >> wrong >> voltage coming in the serial port could cause the frequency shift >> to be >> wrong? >> >> How clever do you think the tone generator side is? > > Well, as Tony replied-- I think that the RS232 input is a logic level. > It's not an analog level. So, you are going to get either the mark > tone > or the space tone and not something in between. > > I think this situation was just a poor explaination of what went > wrong. > Whatever miscable situation he had caused him to generate the opposite > tone of what he was expecting but not a tone that was off frequency > from > one of the two possibilities. Was it in fact the opposite tones (i.e., mark/space reversed) or could it have been an originate mode vs. answer mode issue? Many (most?) modems could be switched between the two sets of tones. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jfoust at threedee.com Sun May 31 12:03:26 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 12:03:26 -0500 Subject: What the heck is this? In-Reply-To: References: <4A20FA91.3020309@softjar.se> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090531120005.03e272c8@mail.threedee.com> At 10:52 AM 5/31/2009, you wrote: >http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/sub/product_detail.aspx?id=80-542-043&searchtable=1&sortExpression=&SortASC=&pageSize=50¤tPageIndex=0&searchNAP= Yes, it's roughly a PDP 11/23 with a built-in terminal for the recently mentioned AMRAY electron microscope / PGT X-ray spectrometer. - John From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun May 31 12:41:59 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 10:41:59 -0700 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo References: <4A1F1852.355206C9@cs.ubc.ca> <20090529123435.GJ31310@n0jcf.net> <1243676231.1093.23.camel@elric> <20090530224619.GO31310@n0jcf.net> <2B524E4E-1782-40D6-AAD2-3E10449A028A@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A22C166.2E32D65A@cs.ubc.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > > On May 30, 2009, at 6:46 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > >> So, you can't see a possible set of circumstances where having the > >> wrong > >> voltage coming in the serial port could cause the frequency shift > >> to be > >> wrong? > >> > >> How clever do you think the tone generator side is? > > > > Well, as Tony replied-- I think that the RS232 input is a logic level. > > It's not an analog level. So, you are going to get either the mark > > tone > > or the space tone and not something in between. > > > > I think this situation was just a poor explaination of what went > > wrong. > > Whatever miscable situation he had caused him to generate the opposite > > tone of what he was expecting but not a tone that was off frequency > > from > > one of the two possibilities. > > Was it in fact the opposite tones (i.e., mark/space reversed) or > could it have been an originate mode vs. answer mode issue? Many > (most?) modems could be switched between the two sets of tones. It's a very primitive originate-only modem, I beleive my previous post explained the mark-space tone behaviour the fellow was observing when he plugged the cable in. I don't see any unexpected behaviour from (my instance of) the modem. One would have to go through hoops to get mark/space reversed. If there was some other problem I think it must have been a configuration issue on the DTE/terminal-emulation end. As Chris says, his explanation was a little off. From devilanse at gmail.com Sun May 31 15:00:58 2009 From: devilanse at gmail.com (Keith Froedge) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 15:00:58 -0500 Subject: How big of Sin? - Hacking up a IBM PC Jr. Message-ID: <7d623c680905311300n2ba80fb8xe81d812f0c7fadec@mail.gmail.com> Just got a new mini-ITX motherboard and need a case. So I have begun looking about the house and found a PC Jr in the closet. I think this might be the one with the memory problem. I do have another. So how big of sin would it be to gut it and install a mini-ITX motherboard? I do hate to damage vintage hardware, but is it really all that rare? Max From spectre at floodgap.com Sun May 31 15:04:01 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 13:04:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How big of Sin? - Hacking up a IBM PC Jr. In-Reply-To: <7d623c680905311300n2ba80fb8xe81d812f0c7fadec@mail.gmail.com> from Keith Froedge at "May 31, 9 03:00:58 pm" Message-ID: <200905312004.n4VK412d012820@floodgap.com> > Just got a new mini-ITX motherboard and need a case. So I have begun > looking about the house and found a PC Jr in the closet. I think this might > be the one with the memory problem. I do have another. So how big of sin > would it be to gut it and install a mini-ITX motherboard? I do hate to > damage vintage hardware, but is it really all that rare? You, sir, are going to hell. Peanuts are not that rare, but why gut one? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Sometimes Dilbert is so true, it's scary. -- Mike Jacobs ------------------- From trixter at oldskool.org Sun May 31 16:05:12 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 16:05:12 -0500 Subject: How big of Sin? - Hacking up a IBM PC Jr. In-Reply-To: <7d623c680905311300n2ba80fb8xe81d812f0c7fadec@mail.gmail.com> References: <7d623c680905311300n2ba80fb8xe81d812f0c7fadec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A22F108.4020101@oldskool.org> Keith Froedge wrote: > Just got a new mini-ITX motherboard and need a case. So I have begun > looking about the house and found a PC Jr in the closet. I think this might > be the one with the memory problem. I do have another. So how big of sin > would it be to gut it and install a mini-ITX motherboard? I do hate to > damage vintage hardware, but is it really all that rare? As much as I love my peanut collection, they are not totally that rare. If you have one that isn't functional, we (the few people who love and collect PCjrs) would forgive you for turning one into a modern computer. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 31 16:11:08 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 14:11:08 -0700 Subject: How big of Sin? - Hacking up a IBM PC Jr. In-Reply-To: <4A22F108.4020101@oldskool.org> References: <7d623c680905311300n2ba80fb8xe81d812f0c7fadec@mail.gmail.com> <4A22F108.4020101@oldskool.org> Message-ID: At 4:05 PM -0500 5/31/09, Jim Leonard wrote: >As much as I love my peanut collection, they are not totally that >rare. If you have one that isn't functional, we (the few people who >love and collect PCjrs) would forgive you for turning one into a >modern computer. I think that's the best metric for destroying something for a Mini-ITX case. It's also the one I'm using, as I would like to house a board in 40's Radio. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun May 31 17:12:04 2009 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 17:12:04 -0500 Subject: How big of Sin? - Hacking up a IBM PC Jr. In-Reply-To: <7d623c680905311300n2ba80fb8xe81d812f0c7fadec@mail.gmail.com> References: <7d623c680905311300n2ba80fb8xe81d812f0c7fadec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A2300B4.4040600@brutman.com> Keith Froedge wrote: > Just got a new mini-ITX motherboard and need a case. So I have begun > looking about the house and found a PC Jr in the closet. I think this might > be the one with the memory problem. I do have another. So how big of sin > would it be to gut it and install a mini-ITX motherboard? I do hate to > damage vintage hardware, but is it really all that rare? > > Max > > You will burn in hell .. :-) #### ###### ## ## ###### #### ## ## ## ## ### ### ## ## ## ## ## ## ## ####### ## ## ## ## ## ### ## ##### ####### ##### ## ## ### ## ## ## ## ## # ## ## ## ## ## ## ## ## ## ## ## ## ## ## ## ## ## #### ###### ## ## #### #### ## ## #### #### _____________________________________________________________ | | | | | | | ||||||||||||||||| | +-------------------+ | | | | | ||||||||||||||||| | | ==| +---+ | | | | | | ||||||||||||||||| | | --|---| |------ | | | | | | ||||||||||||||||| | | +---+ | | | | | | ||||||||||||||||| | +-------------------+ | | | | | ||||||||||||||||| [] | +---------+---------+ | | | | | | |_________|_________| | | | | |________________________+________________________|_|___|___| Mike From legalize at xmission.com Sun May 31 17:14:36 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 16:14:36 -0600 Subject: What the heck is this? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 31 May 2009 12:03:26 -0500. <6.2.3.4.2.20090531120005.03e272c8@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: In article <6.2.3.4.2.20090531120005.03e272c8 at mail.threedee.com>, John Foust writes: > At 10:52 AM 5/31/2009, you wrote: > >http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/sub/product_detail.aspx?id=80-542-043&se archtable=1&sortExpression=&SortASC=&pageSize=50¤tPageIndex=0&searchNAP= > > Yes, it's roughly a PDP 11/23 with a built-in terminal for the > recently mentioned AMRAY electron microscope / PGT X-ray spectrometer. Given that it appears to display graphics on the screen, its a bit more than a "terminal", particularly since it supports color text. So you at least have some sort of indexed CLUT frame buffer in there, along with software to render the measurements into 2D graphics. Basic getpixel/setpixel graphics, I imagine, probably all done in software with a simple memory-mapped framebuffer, but definately much more than what one would think of as just a terminal from this period. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From rick at rickmurphy.net Sun May 31 18:04:37 2009 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 19:04:37 -0400 Subject: LSI-11 available Message-ID: <200905312304.n4VN4bvl014240@rickmurphy.net> I have a friend that lives in southern New Jersey (in Sicklerville, off the Atlantic City expressway) that has a computer he'd like to get rid of. He got it as surplus from a former employer. What he remembers is that it's a LSI-11 system with the CPU box and an expansion box, along with a dual-floppy drive. There's no model on the drive, but it's definitely a DEC RX01 or RX02 drive based on the latch handles. I've no idea what CPU or other cards are installed, but since there's an expansion box there's a chance there's a fair amount of goodies. There's at least CPU, memory, RX controller. It was known working at one point, but the VT has been tossed so he doesn't know if it's still working. All mounted in a short (5 foot tall) rack, with back and sides intact. Best of all, it's available for what he paid for it: nothing. If you're interested and able to pick up, let me know and I'll hook you up. -Rick From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun May 31 18:52:33 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 16:52:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How big of Sin? - Hacking up a IBM PC Jr. In-Reply-To: References: <7d623c680905311300n2ba80fb8xe81d812f0c7fadec@mail.gmail.com> <4A22F108.4020101@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 31 May 2009, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 4:05 PM -0500 5/31/09, Jim Leonard wrote: >> As much as I love my peanut collection, they are not totally that rare. If >> you have one that isn't functional, we (the few people who love and collect >> PCjrs) would forgive you for turning one into a modern computer. > > I think that's the best metric for destroying something for a Mini-ITX > case. It's also the one I'm using, as I would like to house a board in > 40's Radio. The local Goodwill has a 40s console radio sans radio for $40 or so. It's just a wooden shell. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Sun May 31 19:23:50 2009 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 20:23:50 -0400 Subject: Rackmount o'scope for cheap... Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20090531202016.014b5218@mail.30below.com> For those of you who are near Euclid OH, http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/sub/product_detail.aspx?id=09-143-885 Tektronix 465B o'scope in a rackmount housing for $30 Too far away for me; and my Tekky is more luggable anyway. ;-) Laterz, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Sun May 31 20:01:27 2009 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 18:01:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fuse & holder for a NorthStar Horizon Message-ID: <110019.36311.qm@web112221.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I got my hands on a very nice Horizon but it lacks the fuse and fuse holder. Anyone know where I may be able to find the pieces I need? From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun May 31 22:39:26 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 20:39:26 -0700 Subject: Further 11/40 unibus questions... Message-ID: <4A234D6E.1060903@mail.msu.edu> Hi all -- Still having trouble with my 11/40, though it's getting closer. Currently the issue is: Without a unibus terminator installed, the machine seems to function in that I can use the front panel, toggle in and run short programs, etc. With a unibus terminator installed, the front panel is _almost_ unresponsive -- I cannot examine or deposit memory or load addresses. Toggling "Run" causes a brief flicker of activity (the "Run," "Proc," and "Bus" lights come on, the data lights flicker, and then they turn off, and the "Console" light comes back on.). Ian lent me his M9300 terminator, which caused no changes in behavior. So at least I can (probably) rule out a faulty terminator. I've verified that grant continuity cards (the tiny annoying ones) are installed in slot D of all empty Unibus slots, and that the NPG jumper is installed in all slots (since I currently have no DMA devices installed). Question: Should the NPG jumper _also_ be installed in the one SPC Unibus slot on the processor backplane? (I have a console SLU installed there currently.) This does not currently appear to be present. Before I break out the logic analyzer this evening and start debugging Unibus termination signals, I just wanted to make sure my current configuration seems sane. The boards are installed as follows: Rear: Slot 4 : Empty M9300 Slot 3 : Empty Slot 2 : M7891 Slot 1 : Empty | M981 --- Slot 9 : M7856 | M981 Slots 1-8: Front: (As mentioned before, all "empty" unibus slots have a unibus grant card + NPG jumper installed, Slot 3 has the NPG jumper installed.) Thanks once again, Josh From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun May 31 23:13:19 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 00:13:19 -0400 Subject: Rackmount o'scope for cheap... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20090531202016.014b5218@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090531202016.014b5218@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 8:23 PM, Roger Merchberger wrote: > For those of you who are near Euclid OH, > > http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/sub/product_detail.aspx?id=09-143-885 > > Tektronix 465B o'scope in a rackmount housing for $30 > > Too far away for me; and my Tekky is more luggable anyway. ;-) Ooh! Euclid is close, and I was going to be in Cleveland next weekend visiting friends anyway! Thanks for pointing this out. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 31 23:35:52 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 21:35:52 -0700 Subject: Making vintage computers In-Reply-To: <4A1F2075.10655.36ADEAAC@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4A1F2075.10655.36ADEAAC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A22F838.8858.45B0E4FB@cclist.sydex.com> Forgot another early SMP-capable system--the GE 635. That was, what, about 1960? --Chuck