From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Wed Jul 1 00:09:22 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 22:09:22 -0700 Subject: Sphere-1 ROM Message-ID: <4A4AEF82.6090609@mail.msu.edu> Hey all -- Anyone have a ROM image for the Sphere-1 computer (ancient 6800-based machine) they can share with me? Thanks! Josh From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Jul 1 00:08:12 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 02:08:12 -0300 Subject: OT Names was Re: chiclassiccomp.org was Re: Mysterious website References: <01C9F8E9.0FAE0120@MSE_D03><20090630171043.8874848b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de><1246378138.16337.1.camel@elric> <20090630121420.W90019@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <8dac01c9fa0b$25b20de0$880319bb@desktaba> > How well did Nova (No Va) sell in Spanish speaking countries? IIRC, GM > had some difficulty with their "Nova" Nova is "new" in portuguese and in spanish. No Va is "don't go" in spanish, but in portuguese it is different...You spell "nao v?". From slawmaster at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 01:13:48 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 23:13:48 -0700 Subject: Telnet access to moderately old UNIX boxes In-Reply-To: <12D432BE-F772-48E3-938C-BDD23D8494D0@concursive.com> References: <12D432BE-F772-48E3-938C-BDD23D8494D0@concursive.com> Message-ID: <7d3530220906302313l38256b63qa649ccd07f5ebfbc@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Tom Manos wrote: > I am also considering completely blowing off net access for these boxes and > just using dialup. I was thinking of buying one of those MagicJack thingies > that give you a local number and unlimited voip calling for $20 a year and > setting up a modem on it. The downside is that most folks don't have modems > any more. > > Ideas? Am I just nuts for even considering something like this? > When I see the MagicJack commercials, I always think "Oh god, what a scam". Looking online seems to confirm that, even leaving aside people who say "I DIDN'T KNOW YOU NEEDED INTERNET FOR THIS", it's not a great company to deal with and the service is not particularly good. A UUCP net could be cool, though, same goes for running old systems over dialup (I'm imagining dialing in with my VT220 or the ADM-3). John -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From spedraja at ono.com Wed Jul 1 01:26:04 2009 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 08:26:04 +0200 Subject: OT Names was Re: chiclassiccomp.org was Re: Mysterious website In-Reply-To: <20090630121420.W90019@shell.lmi.net> References: <01C9F8E9.0FAE0120@MSE_D03> <20090630171043.8874848b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1246378138.16337.1.camel@elric> <20090630121420.W90019@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: The use of NOVA as 'no va' is not so evident. But for my experience, is the class of word used with double sense when the device begin to fail :-) However, the 'pajero' name for the Mitsubishi is mythical, at least from my perception here in my country. I even think that I didn't see announces in TV, radio, and so. But one of the most funny examples of a recent book that we will NEVER see published in spanish (at least with the complete name of the author) is this: 'Programming Java 2 Micro Edition on Symbian OS, by Martin de Jode' There are sufficient people in this list managing a little Spanish to know what I mean. And I recommend to use a traductor as google to check it because the result is VERY explicit. Sergio 2009/6/30 Fred Cisin > How well did Nova (No Va) sell in Spanish speaking countries? IIRC, GM > had some difficulty with their "Nova" > From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Jul 1 01:32:20 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 23:32:20 -0700 Subject: Telnet access to moderately old UNIX boxes In-Reply-To: <7d3530220906302313l38256b63qa649ccd07f5ebfbc@mail.gmail.com> References: <12D432BE-F772-48E3-938C-BDD23D8494D0@concursive.com>, <7d3530220906302313l38256b63qa649ccd07f5ebfbc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Once upon a time, in a technology galaxy far, far away.... I wrote a business application suite in 'Business BASIC' (with database extensions) on a Nova clone, which we delivered to our remote customer. As they worked with it and found issues or limitations, I did maintenance programming on an ADM-3A over a 300 baud modem. I still remember the pain of watching the screen paint out the characters, so slowly it seemed I could watch them 'progressively' render across the 7x9 character cell. Sooooo slooooooooooow...... I'm sorry, the flashbacks still make me nod off -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Floren [slawmaster at gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 11:13 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Telnet access to moderately old UNIX boxes On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Tom Manos wrote: > I am also considering completely blowing off net access for these boxes and > just using dialup. I was thinking of buying one of those MagicJack thingies > that give you a local number and unlimited voip calling for $20 a year and > setting up a modem on it. The downside is that most folks don't have modems > any more. > > Ideas? Am I just nuts for even considering something like this? > When I see the MagicJack commercials, I always think "Oh god, what a scam". Looking online seems to confirm that, even leaving aside people who say "I DIDN'T KNOW YOU NEEDED INTERNET FOR THIS", it's not a great company to deal with and the service is not particularly good. A UUCP net could be cool, though, same goes for running old systems over dialup (I'm imagining dialing in with my VT220 or the ADM-3). John -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Jul 1 02:44:36 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 09:44:36 +0200 Subject: OT Names was Re: chiclassiccomp.org was Re: Mysterious website In-Reply-To: References: <01C9F8E9.0FAE0120@MSE_D03> <20090630171043.8874848b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1246378138.16337.1.camel@elric> <20090630121420.W90019@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20090701094436.b2d02e3a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 08:26:04 +0200 SPC wrote: > Martin de Jode In Germany the family name "Fickeisen" isn't that uncommon. (Fick should be obvious and Eisen means iron.) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Jul 1 02:56:23 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 09:56:23 +0200 Subject: Telnet access to moderately old UNIX boxes In-Reply-To: <12D432BE-F772-48E3-938C-BDD23D8494D0@concursive.com> References: <12D432BE-F772-48E3-938C-BDD23D8494D0@concursive.com> Message-ID: <20090701095623.4bf6ab97.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 15:02:15 -0400 Tom Manos wrote: > I was thinking of buying one of those > MagicJack thingies that give you a local number and unlimited voip > calling for $20 a year and setting up a modem on it. VoIP uses (more or less) advanced codecs to encode and compress voice audio. A modem, that expects a 1:1 "wire", will not work well on this. You can do things like: Setup a Linux box with SSH accounts that have somthing as cu(1) or tip(1) as login shell. Connect the serial ports of the linux box to the old unix machines. If the old machines can speak TCP/IP you can use telnet(1) instead cu(1) / tip(1). Or use SSH portforwarding... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Wed Jul 1 03:02:23 2009 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (jdr_use at bluewin.ch) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 08:02:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Looking for C-model of an AT disk. Message-ID: <30683642.47001246435343999.JavaMail.webmail@ps20zhh.bluewin.ch> I am looking for a generic C ( or C++) -model for an ATA disk drive. Nothing fancy, but should to read/write sectors and have the ability to preload data. I intend to integrate this into my ETH Lilith emulator, and then write new microcode such that the AT disk becomes the main diskdrive for the system. If and when I get this running the solution will be ported to the real hardware, in order that the remaining lifetime of finnicky Bull Mididisk can be used to image diskscartridges, if any should show up . Jos From rogpugh at mac.com Wed Jul 1 03:44:15 2009 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 09:44:15 +0100 Subject: OT Names In-Reply-To: <4A4ABE49.8080208@databasics.us> References: <01C9F8E9.0FAE0120@MSE_D03> <20090630171043.8874848b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4A4ABE49.8080208@databasics.us> Message-ID: On 1 Jul 2009, at 02:39, Warren Wolfe wrote: > Jochen Kunz wrote: >> My all time favorit: Mitsubishi Pajero. >> They soled that car under this name in parts of the world where >> spanish >> is spoken. Not noticing that "pajero" in spanish means "wanker". They >> where surprised that the car didn't sell well. When they noticed the >> mistake they renamed the car to Montero. > > Excellent. The Chevy Nova had similar problems in Mexico. Finally, > someone noticed that that translated as Chevrolet doesn't go. > > Now we have the Nova awards, for bad translations in advertisements. > I'm a language buff, and I truly love them. They are usually English > ---> Spanish translations, because many people THINK they know simple > Spanish, but have no idea of actual usage. For example, anyone in the > U.S. will recognize the "Got Milk" posters, usually with a famous > person with milk on their upper lip, advertising drinking milk. > Somebody wanted to set this up in Mexico, and translated the phrase as > "?Tienes leche?" Makes perfect high-school Spanish sense. However, > that phrase actually translates as "Are you lactating?" Awkward. > To continue the Automotive theme.. Mitsubishi Starion was reputedly supposed to be called the Stallion but the marketing dept in Japan had told the Australians marketing dept by phone. By the time the mistake was noticed in Japan it was too late and so the name was kept! Also the Toyota MR2 sports car when pronounced in french sounds very much like Toyota Merde (Toyota sh1t) Roger From nico at farumdata.dk Wed Jul 1 03:57:36 2009 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:57:36 +0200 Subject: OT Names References: <01C9F8E9.0FAE0120@MSE_D03> <20090630171043.8874848b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4A4ABE49.8080208@databasics.us> Message-ID: <47AD5A844BEF44FC8EC11760EE4F9056@udvikling> >> Jochen Kunz wrote: >>> > To continue the Automotive theme.. Surnames can also be very appropriate. When I did my national service, I was stationed in an Air Force squadron doing artillery observations etc. The boss observer had a very inappropriate name : BLIND. So much for the accuracy of the observations.... Nico From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 04:26:07 2009 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:26:07 +0100 Subject: OT Names In-Reply-To: References: <01C9F8E9.0FAE0120@MSE_D03> <20090630171043.8874848b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4A4ABE49.8080208@databasics.us> Message-ID: <53e388f20907010226l480fbb8fsfa65328437c1dfee@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 9:44 AM, Roger Pugh wrote: > > To continue the Automotive theme.. > > Mitsubishi Starion was reputedly supposed to be called the Stallion but the > marketing dept in Japan had told the Australians marketing dept by phone. > By the time the mistake was noticed in Japan it was too late and so the > name was kept! > > Also the Toyota MR2 sports car when pronounced in french sounds very much > like Toyota Merde (Toyota sh1t) > > > Slightly more on-topic is arcade game names - Pacman was originally called Puckman but the designers were concerned about the inevitable cabinet vandalism to swearify the name. Donkey Kong should of course been called Monkey Kong but that got lost in the translation, as did Continental Circus which should've been Continental Circuit :) -- -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From engel at multicores.org Wed Jul 1 06:21:10 2009 From: engel at multicores.org (Michael Engel) Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 13:21:10 +0200 Subject: Looking for C-model of an AT disk. In-Reply-To: <30683642.47001246435343999.JavaMail.webmail@ps20zhh.bluewin.ch> References: <30683642.47001246435343999.JavaMail.webmail@ps20zhh.bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <4A4B46A6.5020805@multicores.org> jdr_use at bluewin.ch wrote: > I am looking for a generic C ( or C++) -model for an ATA disk drive. Nothing fancy, but should to read/write sectors > and have the ability to preload data. Maybe the IDE disk emulator from qemu (http://www.qemu.org/) could be useful. I did a bit of work adding a bus mouse emulation to qemu (in order to get around the problems of NeXT/OPENSTEP's PS/2 mouse driver) and found the qemu code quite easy to work with. > I intend to integrate this into my ETH Lilith emulator, and then write new microcode such that the AT disk becomes > the main diskdrive for the system. > If and when I get this running the solution will be ported to the real hardware, in order that the remaining lifetime > of finnicky Bull Mididisk can be used to image diskscartridges, if any should show up . I don't know how complex the protocol for the original Bull drive is - my approach here would be to build a FPGA-based solution to convert the protocols. This is also what the POP11 PDP-11 emulator did - they built a RK disk emulator for regular IDE drives (unfortunately using a proprietary HDL): http://shimizu-lab.dt.u-tokai.ac.jp/pop11.html -- Michael From blstuart at bellsouth.net Wed Jul 1 08:35:09 2009 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart at bellsouth.net) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 08:35:09 -0500 Subject: OT Names In-Reply-To: <47AD5A844BEF44FC8EC11760EE4F9056@udvikling> Message-ID: <571a182a363fe87ac4b2e19c806f61f1@bellsouth.net> > Surnames can also be very appropriate. > When I did my national service, I was stationed in an Air Force squadron > doing artillery observations etc. > The boss observer had a very inappropriate name : BLIND. > So much for the accuracy of the observations.... On the flip side, and slightly more on topic, I used to work with a programmer named Hacker. And when we were looking for names for our daughter, one of the books of baby names had a discussion of names that seemed to foretell the person's profession. My favorite was the gynocologist named Dr. Zoltan Ovary. BLS From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jul 1 09:13:50 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 07:13:50 -0700 Subject: Telnet access to moderately old UNIX boxes In-Reply-To: <20090701095623.4bf6ab97.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <12D432BE-F772-48E3-938C-BDD23D8494D0@concursive.com> <20090701095623.4bf6ab97.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: At 9:56 AM +0200 7/1/09, Jochen Kunz wrote: >On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 15:02:15 -0400 >Tom Manos wrote: > >> I was thinking of buying one of those >> MagicJack thingies that give you a local number and unlimited voip >> calling for $20 a year and setting up a modem on it. >VoIP uses (more or less) advanced codecs to encode and compress voice >audio. A modem, that expects a 1:1 "wire", will not work well on this. I'm totally out of the modem world as well, since I'm *forced* to use FIOS. In the C-64 world at least one comm program will "dial" BBS's over ethernet. This of course assumes you have ethernet on your C-64, which I do. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From feldman.r at comcast.net Wed Jul 1 09:45:29 2009 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 14:45:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Free (for postage) TI 59 calculator Message-ID: <663748423.1119431246459529908.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> I have a TI Programmable 59 calculator with the Master Library chip, manual, templates and soft case that I don?t need. The main problem is that it doesn?t have the battery and it looks like someone tried to re-solder the battery contacts with a hot brick. (The contacts must have broken off, so the owner tried to fix it, but there are melt marks from the iron around the battery opening.) I picked it up at a thrift store some years ago and have not used it, so I do not know if it works. It?s yours for $5 shipping from Chicago (in the US/Canada, other destinations negotiable). Contact me off-list at feldman.r at comcast.net , as I get the list in digest form. ? Bob From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Wed Jul 1 10:25:22 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 08:25:22 -0700 Subject: National Semiconductor Mass Storage Handbook References: Message-ID: <002f01c9fa60$26ba2e70$0201a8c0@hal9000> Tony, My list agrees with Dave's in that there is a " hole " at 1820-5422. They list 5421 and 5423.... No date on my list but it goes up to 1820-8163. File is about 22 MBytes, so a little large to E-mail.... Best regards, Steven > 1990 07 12 from http://www.hparchive.com/bench_briefs.htm > Dave Caroline > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 9:11 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> > >> A quick perusal of HP Bench Briefs (they listed the 1820-xxxx etc to > >> real number) does not have that chip listed so likely a special > > > > Do you happen to know the latest issue that had such a list in it? The > > list I have goes up to the mid-3000s (if you see what I mean), and I've > > seen higher numbers used on stnadard chips. > > > > -tony From feldman.r at comcast.net Wed Jul 1 10:25:22 2009 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 15:25:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Free (for postage) TI 59 calculator Message-ID: <1482876201.1135991246461922309.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> The calculator has been claimed. Bob From david_comley at yahoo.com Wed Jul 1 11:05:29 2009 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (david_comley at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 09:05:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Nova 4/C Questions Message-ID: <219551.7367.qm@web30604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I'm assessing a pair of Nova 4/C chassis that I have had for a few months. One of the units has a CPU but no memory; the other has a MOS memory board but no battery backup unit. Can anyone tell me whether older Nova core memory is compatible with the 4/C processor (I suspect not), and whether the battery backup unit is required for the memory to operate, or whether it was just sold as an option ? I think the wiring is there for it in the chassis. My notes and some photographs are online at http://comley.us/browse.php?&action=show&artefactID=1054 Thanks, -Dave From ics65 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 1 15:31:44 2009 From: ics65 at sbcglobal.net (ics65 at sbcglobal.net) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 15:31:44 -0500 Subject: Nova 4/C Questions References: <219551.7367.qm@web30604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005201c9fa8a$f34cb050$5237d045@efficien2csrlx> I only have experience with the Nova 4 Jr. CPU and Nova 3, both without the Battery Backup, Memory Management or Multiple/Divide options. The Nova 4 Jr. CPU had 64k byte of memory in the front left corner of the CPU pcb. It does have the virtual terminal that connects to an external terminal. This replaced the paddle switch functions of the Nova 3. ,George Columbus, Ohio ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 11:05 AM Subject: Nova 4/C Questions > > I'm assessing a pair of Nova 4/C chassis that I have had for a few months. > One of the units has a CPU but no memory; the other has a MOS memory board > but no battery backup unit. > > Can anyone tell me whether older Nova core memory is compatible with the > 4/C processor (I suspect not), and whether the battery backup unit is > required for the memory to operate, or whether it was just sold as an > option ? I think the wiring is there for it in the chassis. > > My notes and some photographs are online at > http://comley.us/browse.php?&action=show&artefactID=1054 > > Thanks, > -Dave > From david_comley at yahoo.com Wed Jul 1 15:05:07 2009 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (david_comley at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 13:05:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Nova 4/C Questions Message-ID: <297262.15335.qm@web30604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 7/1/09, ics65 at sbcglobal.net wrote: > I only have experience with the Nova > 4 Jr. CPU and Nova 3, both without the Battery Backup, > Memory Management or Multiple/Divide options. The Nova 4 Jr. > CPU had 64k byte of memory in the front left corner of the > CPU pcb. It does have the virtual terminal that connects to > an external terminal. This replaced the paddle switch > functions of the Nova 3. George, thanks. If the Nova 4 Jr. CPU is marked 'DCG JR. CPU' in the front right-hand corner (and it's a pretty good bet), then that's probably what I have and I'll confirm by looking for those memory chips. Am I right in thinking that the console terminal connection is made through pins on the backplane as there is apparently no socket on the board for this purpose ? Regards, -Dave? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 1 13:34:08 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 19:34:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-11 Controller needed to use a couple of RX33 drive In-Reply-To: <4A4AA116.5040703@compsys.to> from "Jerome H. Fine" at Jun 30, 9 07:34:46 pm Message-ID: > Also, if Tony Duell can dig up the schematics for the BA23 > Signal Distribution Panel to confirm the the reason why the > above changes actually work, that would be very helpful. Sorry, I don't think I have them. I never did much with DEC hardware that modern (I am more of an Omnibus/Unibus person). I do have a BA23, and I guess I could pull the switch PCB and see what's going on. If the scrematics are on the web anywhere, I'd be happy to take a look and see what's going on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 1 15:09:36 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 21:09:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT Names In-Reply-To: <571a182a363fe87ac4b2e19c806f61f1@bellsouth.net> from "blstuart@bellsouth.net" at Jul 1, 9 08:35:09 am Message-ID: > On the flip side, and slightly more on topic, I used > to work with a programmer named Hacker. And There used to be a UK radio company called 'Hacker'. And their sets often lived up to that name, being very well-designed and built. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 1 15:11:18 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 21:11:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: National Semiconductor Mass Storage Handbook In-Reply-To: <002f01c9fa60$26ba2e70$0201a8c0@hal9000> from "Scanning" at Jul 1, 9 08:25:22 am Message-ID: > > Tony, > > My list agrees with Dave's in that there is a " hole " at 1820-5422. They > list 5421 and 5423.... No date on my list but it goes up to 1820-8163. File > is about 22 MBytes, so a little large to E-mail.... Thanks... This is the sort of thing that should be on the web somewhere. If it's an issue of 'Bench Briefs' that's on hparchive, then that covers it, of course. If not, perhaps a suitable site could be found... -tony From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Jul 1 15:17:40 2009 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 13:17:40 -0700 Subject: Nova 4/C Questions In-Reply-To: <297262.15335.qm@web30604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <297262.15335.qm@web30604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jul 1, 2009, at 1:05 PM, david_comley at yahoo.com wrote: > Am I right in thinking that the console terminal connection is made > through pins on the backplane as there is apparently no socket on > the board for this purpose ? Yep, just like all Novas. There should be a bulkhead connection on the back of the machine (or to the left of the backplane, looking at the backplane from the pin side) that is wire-wrapped to the appropriate pins on the backplane in order to bring out the signals. -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Wed Jul 1 15:24:38 2009 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 15:24:38 -0500 Subject: Telnet access to classic mainframe/timesharing systems In-Reply-To: <8dd2d95c0906290951gf388ae5s171385267211a6aa@mail.gmail.com> References: <8dd2d95c0906290951gf388ae5s171385267211a6aa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090701202438.GA27350@RawFedDogs.net> On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 12:51:26PM -0400, Michael Kerpan wrote: > I'd be interested to know what's out there vis a vis classic systems > that are on the Internet offering public access. Jim Wilcoxson has a few versions of PRIMOS running via a Prime emulator. More info is available via usenet at comp.sys.prime . One can telnet to prirun.dyndns.org to the ports mentioned below. I'm probably missing some, but from a quick search of comp.sys.prime the following versions appear to be available at the following ports: PRIMOS Version Telnet Port 19 8001 20 8002 21 8003 22 8004 24 8006 I suspect rev 25 might be available on port 8005 but couldn't find a message to confirm it. I think for all the versions one uses LOGIN GUEST, password pr1me. It's been a while since I tried them. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes. Longum iter est per praecepta, breve et efficax per exempla!!! From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jul 1 20:36:27 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 20:36:27 -0500 Subject: OT: deliberate mis-spelling In-Reply-To: <53e388f20906300711w733884b0ge4ea3796bb81008c@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A4A14A8.6030900@geekdot.com> <200906301402.n5UE2Un5061508@keith.ezwind.net> <53e388f20906300711w733884b0ge4ea3796bb81008c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A4C0F1B.70703@oldskool.org> Adrian Graham wrote: > COMPAQ originally stood for 'COMPAtability with Quality' because of their > IBM-copyright busting compatible BIOS. That's the official line anyhoo :) I don't remember that at all. As the original Compaq was a luggable, I was almost certain it stood for "compact". From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jul 1 20:38:05 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 20:38:05 -0500 Subject: Telnet access to moderately old UNIX boxes In-Reply-To: <12D432BE-F772-48E3-938C-BDD23D8494D0@concursive.com> References: <12D432BE-F772-48E3-938C-BDD23D8494D0@concursive.com> Message-ID: <4A4C0F7D.1050304@oldskool.org> Tom Manos wrote: > I am also considering completely blowing off net access for these boxes > and just using dialup. I was thinking of buying one of those MagicJack > thingies that give you a local number and unlimited voip calling for $20 > a year and setting up a modem on it. The downside is that most folks > don't have modems any more. I would be quite surprised if the magicjack stuff worked with a modem. You are getting a very limited spectrum with those things. From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 20:58:03 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 20:58:03 -0500 Subject: unpacking macintosh floppy bin files on windows Message-ID: <6dbe3c380907011858y413cba2awb4853d910a8a960@mail.gmail.com> Does anyone know of a good utility to do this? A google search has been unsuccessful so far. I want to remove the files from a macintosh bin floppy disk image and copy them to a macintosh floppy that I've managed to be able to use on my windows machine. I haven't had much luck actually writing the bin file to a floppy disk directly on windows. brian From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 1 21:09:22 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 22:09:22 -0400 Subject: Telnet access to moderately old UNIX boxes In-Reply-To: <4A4C0F7D.1050304@oldskool.org> References: <12D432BE-F772-48E3-938C-BDD23D8494D0@concursive.com> <4A4C0F7D.1050304@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Jul 1, 2009, at 9:38 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: >> I am also considering completely blowing off net access for these >> boxes and just using dialup. I was thinking of buying one of those >> MagicJack thingies that give you a local number and unlimited voip >> calling for $20 a year and setting up a modem on it. The downside >> is that most folks don't have modems any more. > > I would be quite surprised if the magicjack stuff worked with a > modem. You are getting a very limited spectrum with those things. A very limited and *changing* spectrum with some CODECs. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 21:16:07 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 22:16:07 -0400 Subject: Telnet access to moderately old UNIX boxes In-Reply-To: <7d3530220906302313l38256b63qa649ccd07f5ebfbc@mail.gmail.com> References: <12D432BE-F772-48E3-938C-BDD23D8494D0@concursive.com> <7d3530220906302313l38256b63qa649ccd07f5ebfbc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A4C1867.3040507@gmail.com> John Floren wrote: > On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Tom Manos wrote: >> I am also considering completely blowing off net access for these boxes and >> just using dialup. I was thinking of buying one of those MagicJack thingies >> that give you a local number and unlimited voip calling for $20 a year and >> setting up a modem on it. The downside is that most folks don't have modems >> any more. >> >> Ideas? Am I just nuts for even considering something like this? >> > > When I see the MagicJack commercials, I always think "Oh god, what a > scam". Looking online seems to confirm that, even leaving aside people > who say "I DIDN'T KNOW YOU NEEDED INTERNET FOR THIS", it's not a great > company to deal with and the service is not particularly good. I've hacked it to talk to Asterisk and I'm having a good time with it. Don't usually have to deal with customer service. Peace... Sridhar From djg at pdp8.net Wed Jul 1 21:18:46 2009 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 22:18:46 -0400 Subject: Telnet access to classic mainframe/timesharing systems Message-ID: <200907020218.n622Ikj07836@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> > Among our next projects at the PDPplanet site (which will be changing names > soon) are a PDP-8/e running either TSS/8 or MULTOS, and a PDP-11/45 running > Unix v7. We will announce their availability here as well as other well- > known fora for vintage/classic computing. > I have the multiuser MULTOS and ETOS available on my online PDP-8 (http://www.pdp8online.com/run.shtml) The version of MULTOS I built seems to be hit or miss on what it will run. It seems to run basic fine but pfocal goes into an endless loop and adventure also won't run. Have you run it enough to know if the copy your running works better? From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 21:24:21 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 22:24:21 -0400 Subject: OT Names was Re: chiclassiccomp.org was Re: Mysterious website In-Reply-To: <20090701094436.b2d02e3a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <01C9F8E9.0FAE0120@MSE_D03> <20090630171043.8874848b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1246378138.16337.1.camel@elric> <20090630121420.W90019@shell.lmi.net> <20090701094436.b2d02e3a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4A4C1A55.6070307@gmail.com> Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 08:26:04 +0200 > SPC wrote: > >> Martin de Jode > In Germany the family name "Fickeisen" isn't that uncommon. > (Fick should be obvious and Eisen means iron.) How did *that* name come about? Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 21:25:10 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 22:25:10 -0400 Subject: Telnet access to moderately old UNIX boxes In-Reply-To: <20090701095623.4bf6ab97.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <12D432BE-F772-48E3-938C-BDD23D8494D0@concursive.com> <20090701095623.4bf6ab97.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4A4C1A86.6060002@gmail.com> Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 15:02:15 -0400 > Tom Manos wrote: > >> I was thinking of buying one of those >> MagicJack thingies that give you a local number and unlimited voip >> calling for $20 a year and setting up a modem on it. > VoIP uses (more or less) advanced codecs to encode and compress voice > audio. A modem, that expects a 1:1 "wire", will not work well on this. > > You can do things like: Setup a Linux box with SSH accounts that have > somthing as cu(1) or tip(1) as login shell. Connect the serial ports of > the linux box to the old unix machines. If the old machines can speak > TCP/IP you can use telnet(1) instead cu(1) / tip(1). Or use SSH > portforwarding... What about SLIP/PPP? Peace... Sridhar From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jul 1 21:56:27 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 19:56:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT Names was Re: chiclassiccomp.org was Re: Mysterious website In-Reply-To: <4A4C1A55.6070307@gmail.com> from Sridhar Ayengar at "Jul 1, 9 10:24:21 pm" Message-ID: <200907020256.n622uRKq006386@floodgap.com> > > In Germany the family name "Fickeisen" isn't that uncommon. > > (Fick should be obvious and Eisen means iron.) > > How did *that* name come about? *cue hardbody joke* -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Of course, what I really want is total world domination. -- Linus Torvalds - From brain at jbrain.com Wed Jul 1 23:27:13 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 23:27:13 -0500 Subject: Kaypro System disks? Message-ID: <4A4C3721.5030900@jbrain.com> I have been fortunate to acquire a Kaypro system that appears to be in great condition and looks to work. It looks exactly like this: http://www.computermuseum.li/Testpage/Kaypro-I-Micro.htm Thus, it says Kaypro 1 on the artwork Still, the sticker on the rear says Kaypro 2, so I'm confused. In any event, I have no system disks for it (There is a slight possibility they are part of the stash with which the Kaypro was bundled, but it's 100 sq ft of stuff). Thus, I'm wondering if there is a kind soul who might be able to ship me a set of disks. (I'll pay shipping, of course). I also am the proud owner of 2 Obsorne machines (one works, the other seems to have drive issues. They are the redesigned units, but (as I suspected) the systems disks won't work on the Kaypro. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From brain at jbrain.com Wed Jul 1 23:36:41 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 23:36:41 -0500 Subject: Shuttle Communicator Hardware? Message-ID: <4A4C3959.3080900@jbrain.com> Does anyone know anything about a Shuttle Communicator system? It looks to be some sort of demodulation system that plugs into various 80's era computers and has the ability to receive data from radio, modem, telephone, etc. Yes, there were some neat tidbits in the recent acquisition. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 2 00:46:35 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 22:46:35 -0700 Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <4A4C3721.5030900@jbrain.com> References: <4A4C3721.5030900@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4A4BE74B.27151.DF9B639@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jul 2009 at 23:27, Jim Brain wrote: > I have been fortunate to acquire a Kaypro system that appears to be in > great condition and looks to work. > > It looks exactly like this: > > http://www.computermuseum.li/Testpage/Kaypro-I-Micro.htm > > Thus, it says Kaypro 1 on the artwork > > Still, the sticker on the rear says Kaypro 2, so I'm confused. The Kaypro 1 was actually the end of the line, pretty much--about 1986 and much later than the Kaypro II: http://www.digibarn.com/collections/systems/kaypro-1/index.html Dave Dunfield's got some Kaypro images on his site that will probably work: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img06062/system.htm --Chuck From carron at internode.on.net Wed Jul 1 05:22:51 2009 From: carron at internode.on.net (Carron) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 19:52:51 +0930 Subject: Radio Shack Science Fair manuals Message-ID: You wouldnt have a manual for a 60 in one science fair ? Would be very grateful as would my students thanks C Beeching From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu Jul 2 01:51:49 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 23:51:49 -0700 Subject: Wang LOCI-2A on eBay Message-ID: <4A4C5905.40405@mail.msu.edu> Item # 150356241047. Wish I had the disposable income for this. Neat old programmable calculator, with blinkenlights! - Josh From rickb at bensene.com Thu Jul 2 09:01:18 2009 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 07:01:18 -0700 Subject: Wang LOCI-2A on eBay In-Reply-To: <4A4C5905.40405@mail.msu.edu> References: <4A4C5905.40405@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: > Item # 150356241047. > Very rare old machine, probably made in early 1967. I can't recall ever having seen a LOCI calculator on eBay in all of the years that I've watched it for old calculators. This one is a pretty early LOCI-2, with keyboard keys with molded-in legends rather than the paper legends with clear plastic keycap covers. Both of the LOCI-2's in the Old Calculator Museum have the paper-legend keyboard. This makes the machine at auction even more unusual. The LOCI-2 was only programmable via an external punched card reader, which does not seem to be included in this auction. It doesn't have any program storage or learn-mode capabilities -- it just reads program steps from the card reader and executes them. Without the card reader, it's just a stand-alone calculator. Based on the photo and description, my guess is that it is not fully functional. The machine uses mostly 2N404 Germanium transistors for the logic, so it's possible to repair as these transistors are still available (although somewhat expensive). It looks like it has taken some pretty good hits during its life, as the upper part of the cabinet is pretty banged up. It is all there, though, and would definitely make a great addition to any vintage calculating/computing collection. For more information on the LOCI-2, see the Old Calculator Museum exhibit: http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/wangloci.html Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com Beavercreek, Oregon From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 2 09:03:02 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 10:03:02 -0400 Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <4A4C3721.5030900@jbrain.com> References: <4A4C3721.5030900@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On 7/2/09, Jim Brain wrote: > I have been fortunate to acquire a Kaypro system that appears to be in > great condition and looks to work. Congrats! > In any event, I have no system disks for it (There is a slight > possibility they are part of the stash with which the Kaypro was > bundled, but it's 100 sq ft of stuff). Thus, I'm wondering if there is > a kind soul who might be able to ship me a set of disks. (I'll pay > shipping, of course). Something you should probably do is take the lid off and record the number from the sticker on the boot ROM. Long ago, when I got Kaypro disks directly from Don Maslin, he needed that number from me to know exactly what disk to send me. My experience with CP/M and Kaypros is rather superficial so I can't say what's different from model to model or version to version, but I can report that knowing your exact machine configuration seems to be important. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jul 2 10:32:54 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 11:32:54 -0400 Subject: big Dynabyte system on eBay Message-ID: See # 200358832673. Not affiliated with seller, yadda yadda. This looks like a really nice system...Hard drive, looks like a QIC tape drive, terminals, printer. The seller says the machine has problems but has included some spare parts. Speaking of which, does anyone have a spare Dynabyte 8" floppy subsystem sitting around in a garage? I'd love to have a matching disk subsystem for my DB8/1. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From brain at jbrain.com Thu Jul 2 10:45:11 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 10:45:11 -0500 Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <4A4BE74B.27151.DF9B639@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4A4C3721.5030900@jbrain.com> <4A4BE74B.27151.DF9B639@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A4CD607.7060207@jbrain.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 Jul 2009 at 23:27, Jim Brain wrote: > > >> Still, the sticker on the rear says Kaypro 2, so I'm confused. >> > > The Kaypro 1 was actually the end of the line, pretty much--about > 1986 and much later than the Kaypro II: > I saw the pics. Note, though, the sticker says Kaypro 2, not Kaypro II. I am going on the assumption that the Kayrpo 2 sticker designation is some attempt to bridge it to the 2X, with which is shares a direct lineage. > > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img06062/system.htm > I appreciate the link. Hmm, the PCs with the 5.25" drives, they not so present around here... :-) Jim From dave09 at dunfield.com Thu Jul 2 12:04:20 2009 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 12:04:20 -0500 Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <4A4CD607.7060207@jbrain.com> References: <4A4BE74B.27151.DF9B639@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <911C73B90051@dunfield.com> > Hmm, the PCs with the 5.25" drives, they not so present around here... :-) Hmm... but you do have a PC I assume.... and 2 5.25" drives sitting there in the Kaypro --- there must be a way to do it, Hmm.... -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ics65 at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 2 12:16:06 2009 From: ics65 at sbcglobal.net (George Wiegand) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 12:16:06 -0500 Subject: Nova 4/C Questions References: <297262.15335.qm@web30604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003c01c9fb38$c927aa10$728bd345@efficien2csrlx> The console terminal connection maybe labeled directly on the backplane (a row of ~10 pins), only 3 pins for the RS232 are needed. I guess you don't have the info. to the pin outs? Dave, what part of the world are you located in? ,George ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 3:05 PM Subject: Re: Nova 4/C Questions --- On Wed, 7/1/09, ics65 at sbcglobal.net wrote: > I only have experience with the Nova > 4 Jr. CPU and Nova 3, both without the Battery Backup, > Memory Management or Multiple/Divide options. The Nova 4 Jr. > CPU had 64k byte of memory in the front left corner of the > CPU pcb. It does have the virtual terminal that connects to > an external terminal. This replaced the paddle switch > functions of the Nova 3. George, thanks. If the Nova 4 Jr. CPU is marked 'DCG JR. CPU' in the front right-hand corner (and it's a pretty good bet), then that's probably what I have and I'll confirm by looking for those memory chips. Am I right in thinking that the console terminal connection is made through pins on the backplane as there is apparently no socket on the board for this purpose ? Regards, -Dave From david_comley at yahoo.com Thu Jul 2 11:30:33 2009 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 09:30:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Nova 4/C Questions Message-ID: <405431.8880.qm@web30608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 7/2/09, George Wiegand wrote: > The console terminal connection maybe > labeled directly on the backplane (a row of ~10 pins), only > 3 pins for the RS232 are needed. I guess you don't have the > info. to the pin outs? I'll have to take a closer look tonight at what is on the backplanes. I had thought that both machines were the same but I'm realizing that they are slightly different; only one has the JR. cpu, the other one is marked DGC 12V0. I don't have the wiring details for the backplane console pins but there's a good chance it's already wired on one of the chassis; there are two 25-way D type connectors on a bracket on the right hand side of the back of the chassis. My experience with Novas began and ended with the 1200's and 1220's, and the UK Redifon Computer offshoots in the early eighties, so I'm completely unfamiliar with the console arrangements for the newer CPUs (actually I'm completely unfamiliar with the new CPUs, period). > Dave, what part of the world are you located in? > ,George Eastern Pennsylvania, near the town of New Hope, right on the NJ border. Regards, -Dave From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Jul 2 11:51:01 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 13:51:01 -0300 Subject: Telnet access to classic mainframe/timesharing systems References: <4A4C6F2B.9050208@softjar.se> Message-ID: <08c901c9fb36$a96ae310$013c19bb@desktaba> > So, just telnet to Mim.Update.UU.SE, and login with guest/guest, and you > can play with RSX. Wow! Fantastic! Thanks for a nice oportunity, Johnny! :o) From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Jul 2 12:14:41 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 10:14:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaypro System disks? Message-ID: <751700.82709.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 7/2/09, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > Hmm, the PCs with the 5.25" drives, they not so > present around here... :-) > > Hmm... but you do have a PC I assume.... and 2 5.25" drives > sitting there in > the Kaypro --- there must be a way to do it, Hmm.... Hmm.... and if only there was some sort of really clever software that could write disk images out to real floppy disks. And perhaps then even a wonderfully useful archive of diskette images. If only... http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/ -Ian From toby at coreware.co.uk Thu Jul 2 12:18:03 2009 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 18:18:03 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/M H740 PSU woes Message-ID: <1246555083.13550.224.camel@pokoyo.tan.russellsharpe.com> I'm just in the midst of rebuilding a PDP-8/M which has the H740 PSU in it (also fitted to 5.25" PDP-11/05s). I've cleaned the PSU up and reformed its capacitors, checked the transformer is working fine. On replacing the switch mode circuit board and powering up, I'm getting a blown fuse (F1 on circuit diagram) which supplies the 5V and 15V rails. The -15V rail is working fine. Does anyway have any suggestions as to the best approach to locating the problem? I've been pondering whether it would be possible to isolate either the 5V or 15V circuit so I can see which of them is causing the problem, but I can't see any simple way to achieve this. Also, is my practice of powering the PSU up without any load a foolish one? I've not had any problems in the past using this approach but I have seen people previously mention that running switch modes without a load is a bad idea. A circuit diagram of the H740 can be found here: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~djg/htdocs/cgi-bin/tifftopdf.cgi/h740.pdf?loc=newstuff Thanks, Toby -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jul 2 12:23:38 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 10:23:38 -0700 Subject: Nova 4/C Questions References: <297262.15335.qm@web30604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <003c01c9fb38$c927aa10$728bd345@efficien2csrlx> Message-ID: <4A4CED19.9B5CE372@cs.ubc.ca> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > > Am I right in thinking that the console terminal connection is made through > pins on the backplane as there is apparently no socket on the board for this > purpose ? George Wiegand wrote: > > The console terminal connection maybe labeled directly on the backplane (a > row of ~10 pins), only 3 pins for the RS232 are needed. I guess you don't > have the info. to the pin outs? > Dave, what part of the world are you located in? Dave, on your web page you mention "Each board has an AY-3-1015D UART on board suggesting that the console serial port is built into the CPU". If you feel like tracing the interface connections from the UART (probably thru some 1488/9 drivers), the datasheet for the 3-1015 is here: http://www.datasheets.org.uk/pdf/761571.pdf It's a pin-config'd UART, so the config may also be discernible from examination. From brain at jbrain.com Thu Jul 2 12:27:04 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 12:27:04 -0500 Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <911C73B90051@dunfield.com> References: <4A4BE74B.27151.DF9B639@cclist.sydex.com> <911C73B90051@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <4A4CEDE8.9050701@jbrain.com> Dave Dunfield wrote: >> Hmm, the PCs with the 5.25" drives, they not so present around here... :-) >> > > Hmm... but you do have a PC I assume.... and 2 5.25" drives sitting there in > the Kaypro --- there must be a way to do it, Hmm.... > > Coming from a CBM background, I would not have presumed I could do that. Is there a document on how to prepare a suitable cable? I checked the main page: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm but a lot of the links are invalid. Jim From brain at jbrain.com Thu Jul 2 12:28:55 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 12:28:55 -0500 Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <751700.82709.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <751700.82709.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A4CEE57.7070003@jbrain.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Hmm.... and if only there was some sort of really clever software that could write disk images out to real floppy disks. And perhaps then even a wonderfully useful archive of diskette images. If only... > > > > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/ > > > -Ian > OK, for the record, I saw the app. But, I made an assumption that I need a PC drive. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Jul 2 12:46:44 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 10:46:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaypro System disks? Message-ID: <814516.61394.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 7/2/09, Jim Brain wrote: > OK, for the record, I saw the app. But, I made an > assumption that I > need a PC drive. > PC's use standard Shugart-style interface floppy drives, just like most other computers of the era. You'll find that most machines have compatible disk drives - Kaypro, Osborne, TRS-80, IBM PC, TI-99/4A (in the expansion unit), etc, etc. The "oddballs" like the C64, Apple II, Atari, and other micros are all different though. The primary difference between other machines and PC's is the drive select line. PC's have all the disk drives jumpered as the second drive (drive 1), and use a cable with a twist in it to swap the select line around to turn a drive jumpered as drive one into drive zero. Most other machines just use the drive select jumpers on the drive itself. As for a cable, you should only need a regular PC floppy cable, with the card edge style connectors as well. Find one of the long ones, Gateway full tower machines used to come with really long floppy cables. And the cables for older machines used to have both card edge and dual row pin type connectors for both 5 1/4" drives and 3 1/2" drives. You should be able to unplug the data cable from the Kaypro drive, and plug it into the PC cable. You can leave the drive in the Kaypro, and leave it connected to the Kaypro for power - and just hook the cable up to the PC. If you use drive zero, then plug it in with the non-twisted connector, and the PC should use it as Drive A. If you use drive one, plug it in with the twisted connector, and it'll be drive A. -Ian From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 2 12:47:32 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 10:47:32 -0700 Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <4A4CEDE8.9050701@jbrain.com> References: <4A4BE74B.27151.DF9B639@cclist.sydex.com>, <911C73B90051@dunfield.com>, <4A4CEDE8.9050701@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4A4C9044.17822.108DBD82@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jul 2009 at 12:27, Jim Brain wrote: > Is there a document on how to prepare a suitable cable? > > I checked the main page: > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm but a lot of the > links are invalid. For a PC? Basically a 34-pin edge connector crimped onto an existing floppy cable will do the trick. As to A: or B: drive, you can select either the twisted or untwisted section. Set the drive select to the *second* select (either DS1 or DS0, depending on manufacturer). I'''ve still got floppy cables that were supplied with BOTH types of connectors (side by side), so they may still be out there in some scrapper's hoard... --Chuck From david_comley at yahoo.com Thu Jul 2 13:05:34 2009 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 11:05:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-8/M H740 PSU woes Message-ID: <58688.52361.qm@web30606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 7/2/09, Tobias Russell wrote: > I've cleaned the PSU up and reformed its capacitors, > checked the > transformer is working fine. On replacing the switch mode > circuit board This looks like a linear PSU to me. > and powering up, I'm getting a blown fuse (F1 on circuit > diagram) which > supplies the 5V and 15V rails. The -15V rail is working > fine. > Does anyway have any suggestions as to the best approach to > locating the > problem? I've been pondering whether it would be possible > to isolate > either the 5V or 15V circuit so I can see which of them is > causing the > problem, but I can't see any simple way to achieve this. Based on my limited experience: Start by checking the bridge rectifier D14. The +5V line has overvoltage protection via Q11 and D12. It may be crowbarring the 5V line causing F1 to blow. Did you verify the condition of the big cap C7 with an ohmmeter ? Make sure it's discharged and then measure the resistance across it. It should start at zero and climb slowly and steadily upwards. I'd also look around Q6 for a collector-emitter short, and Q7 for a short. > > Also, is my practice of powering the PSU up without any > load a foolish > one? I've not had any problems in the past using this > approach but I > have seen people previously mention that running switch > modes without a > load is a bad idea. A dummy load may be useful as you get further into testing; you'll want to be sure that the outputs are functioning correctly under load. Regards, -Dave From dave09 at dunfield.com Thu Jul 2 13:57:41 2009 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 13:57:41 -0500 Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <4A4CEDE8.9050701@jbrain.com> References: <911C73B90051@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <918488BE1F51@dunfield.com> > Dave Dunfield wrote: > >> Hmm, the PCs with the 5.25" drives, they not so present around here... :-) > >> > > > > Hmm... but you do have a PC I assume.... and 2 5.25" drives sitting there in > > the Kaypro --- there must be a way to do it, Hmm.... > > > > > Coming from a CBM background, I would not have presumed I could do that. Unlike Commodore & Apple, the Kaypro uses standard diskette drives, and you should be able to make them work on a PC. > Is there a document on how to prepare a suitable cable? Before IBM decided that users were incapable of understanding drive select jumpers, a floppy cable was a plain flat 34-conductor cable, and each drive select was picked via a header on the drive (All cable connectors were logically the same). With the PC, IBM decided to jumper all drives as drive 2 (1-4) or B: and use a twist in the cable to redirect the motor-on and select signals so that the position on the cable determined the drive selection. The upshot of this is that it's fairly easy to make any drive and cable work as the B: drive in a PC (without the twist), but you need the twisted cable to properly do an A: drive (which still has to be jumpered as drive 2). So what you need is a flat 34-pin cable, with a pin-header to connect to the mainboard, and a 34-pin edge connector for the floppy drive - jumper the drive as drive 2 (assuming you are counting 1-4) and access it with ImageDisk or whatever other software you are using as drive B: > I checked the main page: > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm but a lot of the links > are invalid. Funny - they all check out for me. You might want to flush your browsers cache, as I do move the pages containing the diskette images on a regular basis because I want people to link to the main images page so that those using the links will see the notices contained therein - in fact I moved them this morning after seeing that someone had posted a link directly to the system images directory (even though each of those pages has a note asking people NOT to link directly to the sub-pages). -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From david_comley at yahoo.com Thu Jul 2 13:09:51 2009 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 11:09:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Nova 4/C Questions Message-ID: <82244.89632.qm@web30607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 7/2/09, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Dave, on your web page you mention "Each board has an > AY-3-1015D UART on board > suggesting that the console serial port is built into the > CPU". If you feel > like tracing the interface connections from the UART > (probably thru some 1488/9 > drivers), the datasheet for the 3-1015 is here: > ? http://www.datasheets.org.uk/pdf/761571.pdf Yes, I'll do that, partly because I'm curious about what sort of line drivers are on there. Didn't spot any of the usual suspects. Thanks for the link and the suggestion. > > It's a pin-config'd UART, so the config may also be > discernible from examination. > There is a wealth of jumpers around the UART that I assumed were for setting the console line attributes but if I trace them back to the UART I can verify their purpose. Regards, -Dave From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Thu Jul 2 13:36:12 2009 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 12:36:12 -0600 Subject: Apple Airport w/ Adapters on CL Message-ID: <4A4CFE1C.5070302@rogerwilco.org> Who was it that needed an Airport card for an iMac a couple of weeks ago? A seller (no connection) in my area appears to have three for sale, with iMac adapters: http://provo.craigslist.org/sys/1238519912.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 2 13:59:38 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 11:59:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <4A4CD607.7060207@jbrain.com> References: <4A4C3721.5030900@jbrain.com> <4A4BE74B.27151.DF9B639@cclist.sydex.com> <4A4CD607.7060207@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <20090702115745.E78094@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 2 Jul 2009, Jim Brain wrote: > Hmm, the PCs with the 5.25" drives, they not so present around here... :-) Then you can borrow one from the Kaypro. Or you can stick a 3.5" drive into the Kaypro, From spedraja at ono.com Thu Jul 2 14:11:57 2009 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 21:11:57 +0200 Subject: Altos 586 disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The diskette unit of the Altos 586 is finally operative and tested with 5.25 diskettes of 360k and 1200k. I even did one backup with 'tar' in diskettes of 1200k (8 units) But of course you musn't use the instructions of the Xenix manual to put operative a diskette... at least not EXACTLY To being operative one diskette of 360k must be treated so: format option 2 (IBM AT slow format) ... and later: mkfs /dev/fd0 360 For the 1200k diskettes: format option 3 (IBM AT fast format) ... and later: mkfs /dev/fd096ds15 ? (not sure about the exact size to provide here) Sergio From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Jul 2 16:43:37 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 14:43:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaypro System disks? Message-ID: <299718.73995.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 7/2/09, Tom Manos wrote: > Will a Kaypro really play nice with a > 3.5" floppy drive? It never occurred to me to try it. I > thought the floppy drivers under CP/M only knew about DD > drives, and the bios on the boot disk was different between > the various Kaypro models among other things to support the > different floppies they had (SS/SD, SS/DD, DS/DD). A couple of tricks. For one, you won't be able to use high density drives - the controller can't handle the higher data rate without some hacking. But a 720k floppy drive is almost the same as a DS/DD 5 1/4" floppy drive. It just has 80 tracks instead of 40. So, if you use it without any special drivers, it will work, and the system won't know the difference - it will only use the first 40 tracks, and you'll get 360k of storage. I don't know about the Kaypro, but on the TRS-80, it's possible, with OS support, to use 720k f3 1/2" drives on unmodified hardware, and use the full capacity. -Ian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 2 17:21:01 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 18:21:01 -0400 Subject: Apple Airport w/ Adapters on CL In-Reply-To: <4A4CFE1C.5070302@rogerwilco.org> References: <4A4CFE1C.5070302@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: On 7/2/09, J Blaser wrote: > Who was it that needed an Airport card for an iMac a couple of weeks ago? Me? > A seller (no connection) in my area appears to have three for sale, with > iMac adapters: > > http://provo.craigslist.org/sys/1238519912.html Thank you for bringing these up, but a list member sent me an empty adapter and I have a handful of Orinoco cards (w/antenna jack) already lying around. If they mechanically fit in the iMac (lots of room compared to other Apple devices, as far as I can tell), I should be good. I'm curious if that's $20 for all 3 or $20 each (each, I'm guessing). Either way, not expensive. -ethan From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Thu Jul 2 17:46:16 2009 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 18:46:16 -0400 Subject: OT Names was Re: chiclassiccomp.org was Re: Mysterious website In-Reply-To: <20090701094436.b2d02e3a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <01C9F8E9.0FAE0120@MSE_D03> <20090630171043.8874848b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1246378138.16337.1.camel@elric> <20090630121420.W90019@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20090702184125.012a6598@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jochen Kunz may have mentioned these words: >On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 08:26:04 +0200 >SPC wrote: > > > Martin de Jode >In Germany the family name "Fickeisen" isn't that uncommon. >(Fick should be obvious and Eisen means iron.) In my neck of the woods, souvenir stores are called "fudgie shops" as many of them started out as & prominently feature handmade fudge. (and yes, tourists are called "fudgies" as well; i.e. people who come & tour all the fudgie shops.) We have one called "Das Gift Haus" - perfectly good German for: The Poison House. I asked once if they kept arsenic in stock, the onshift salesmonkey (usually current or former [read: dropout] college students) just looked at me funny, even after I explained the translated meaning of the name of the establishment. Must've been one of the dropouts. ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From lynchaj at yahoo.com Thu Jul 2 19:17:20 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 20:17:20 -0400 Subject: S-100 prototyping boards available Message-ID: Hi! I recently had some S-100 prototyping boards made and I have some extras. If anyone would like to buy some please contact me by email. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jul 2 19:20:21 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 17:20:21 -0700 Subject: Nova 4/C Questions References: <82244.89632.qm@web30607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A4D4EC5.342F36BB@cs.ubc.ca> David Comley wrote: > > --- On Thu, 7/2/09, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > Dave, on your web page you mention "Each board has an > > AY-3-1015D UART on board > > suggesting that the console serial port is built into the > > CPU". If you feel like tracing the interface connections from > > the UART (probably thru some 1488/9 drivers), > > the datasheet for the 3-1015 is here: > > ? http://www.datasheets.org.uk/pdf/761571.pdf Well, I guess I should check the validity of old links before I send them out. That link is no longer valid, but the pdf(s) do still show up with a search on the site. > Yes, I'll do that, partly because I'm curious about what sort of line drivers are on there. Didn't spot any of the usual suspects. Thanks for the link and the suggestion. From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jul 2 19:36:40 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 01:36:40 +0100 Subject: A Complete History Of Mainframe Computing In-Reply-To: References: <575131af0906301700p6e4f2af5x584e270e75b438e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0907021736u101ed356rc0b520dc47320e90@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/1 Rich Alderson : >> From: Liam Proven >> Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 5:00 PM > >> Tom's Hardware - a popular site for PC hardware tweakers and >> overclockers - has done an ambitious article on the development of the >> mainframe: > >> http://www.tomshardware.com/picturestory/508-mainframe-computer-history.html > >> It's a little American-centric but it's not at all bad. > > *American*-centric!?! ?How about *IBM*-centric?!? > > After the 1960s, the only non-IBM product mentioned is the (minicomputer) > VAX-11/780. ?(OK, *super*minicomputer, but even so...) > > And in the 1960s, the only other DEC product mentioned is *the PDP-8*???? > (with a brushoff for several years of successful sales prior to the -8, no > less.) ?Another mini, and no acknowledgement of the PDP-10 mainframe on which > the bulk of the development of the modern Internet took place. > > It would be nice if they knew what they were talking about. > > IMAO, > Rich Ohboy. Can't deny any of your observations, but I though that for a site from a world that barely knows that anything other than x86 exists or ever has, it wasn't too bad! But don't tell us - tell them, in their comments boards, or mail the author. Or better still, write a complementary piece - hell, perhaps we could do it collectively on the list as a group effort? - and submit it to Tom's HW as a follow-on, filling in the gaps...? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 2 19:47:38 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 17:47:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <299718.73995.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <299718.73995.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090702174013.N90240@shell.lmi.net> > Will a Kaypro really play nice with a > 3.5" floppy drive? It never occurred to me to try it. I > thought the floppy drivers under CP/M only knew about DD > drives, and the bios on the boot disk was different between > the various Kaypro models among other things to support the > different floppies they had (SS/SD, SS/DD, DS/DD). A 720K 3.5" IS a DD drive. Depending on the specific model, the Kaypro will only see 40 tracks of the 3.5", and may or may not support using the second side. There was substantial third party support (Advent? Micro Cornucopia, etc.) for DS 80 track ("720K") drives on Kaypros. One quirk about the Kaypro format, is that it puts an incorrect value in the head number field of the sectors on the second side. But, it doesn't seem to object to a disk having the correct value there. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 2 20:02:04 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 21:02:04 -0400 Subject: Apple Airport w/ Adapters on CL In-Reply-To: References: <4A4CFE1C.5070302@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: On 7/2/09, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 7/2/09, J Blaser wrote: >> Who was it that needed an Airport card for an iMac a couple of weeks ago? > > Me? > ... a list member sent me an empty > adapter and I have a handful of Orinoco cards (w/antenna jack) already > lying around. If they mechanically fit in the iMac (lots of room > compared to other Apple devices, as far as I can tell), I should be > good. And guess what was waiting in the mailbox for me! I did run into a mechanical issue - the card I have is the "standard" laptop 802.11 card with an extended base and a plastic paddle covering the internal antennas. I recalled seeing a web page sometime back about someone who hacked one of these into their Airport, so I removed the cover because it was too close to a DIMM latch, but had the lateral clearance to leave the internal antennas attached (unlike the surgery I saw photos of). So it "fits" and all I had to do was unsnap a bit of plastic, so if I ever decide I need an Orinoco Gold card somewhere else, I can reassemble it. It would probably fit better if I amputated one of the two "L-bracket" antennas, but I'd rather not do anything drastic. Booting it up now... success! So you don't "need" an Apple Airport card if you are willing to do a little surgery on a standard Orinoco-chipset 801.11b card, but obviously a "real" Apple card would just fit. Now to track down a second 512MB PC133 DIMM to max this puppy out (it already has 10.4 on it - not bad for a $20 thift-store find). -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 2 20:23:37 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 18:23:37 -0700 Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <20090702174013.N90240@shell.lmi.net> References: <299718.73995.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <20090702174013.N90240@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4A4CFB29.21134.122F4CE5@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jul 2009 at 17:47, Fred Cisin wrote: > There was substantial third party support (Advent? Micro Cornucopia, > etc.) for DS 80 track ("720K") drives on Kaypros. Advent TurboROM and the Pro-8 ROMs > One quirk about the Kaypro format, is that it puts an incorrect value > in the head number field of the sectors on the second side. But, it > doesn't seem to object to a disk having the correct value there. The WD1793 doesn't care what it sees in the head field. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 2 20:42:25 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 18:42:25 -0700 Subject: A Complete History Of Mainframe Computing In-Reply-To: <575131af0907021736u101ed356rc0b520dc47320e90@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0906301700p6e4f2af5x584e270e75b438e@mail.gmail.com>, , <575131af0907021736u101ed356rc0b520dc47320e90@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A4CFF91.7176.1240850A@cclist.sydex.com> Geez, out of the entire gang of Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, he sure missed a lot of the little fellows, didn't he? I know--NCR made cash registers; GE made toasters, RCA made TVs, Honeywell made thermostats, Not to mention Philco, Packard Bell, SDS, Tandem, Amdahl,... or Nixdorf, ICL, English Electric, Olivetti... or NEC or Fujitsu or any of the Soviet-era systems. He describes the CDC6600 as "was very limited in the instructions it could perform". Huh?? Compared to what? One little-known aspect was that the 6600 smoked any of the IBM iron of that time when running COBOL. --Chuck From lists at databasics.us Thu Jul 2 21:36:14 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 16:36:14 -1000 Subject: A Complete History Of Mainframe Computing In-Reply-To: <4A4CFF91.7176.1240850A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <575131af0906301700p6e4f2af5x584e270e75b438e@mail.gmail.com>, , <575131af0907021736u101ed356rc0b520dc47320e90@mail.gmail.com> <4A4CFF91.7176.1240850A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A4D6E9E.20600@databasics.us> Chuck Guzis wrote: > He describes the CDC6600 as "was very limited in the instructions it > could perform". Huh?? Compared to what? One little-known aspect > was that the 6600 smoked any of the IBM iron of that time when > running COBOL. The same is true of ForTran. The key was the bizarre way that floating point numbers were stored. in a 60 bit word. The first 18 bits (high order) were the exponent, and the remainder were the mantissa. To assemble a FP value, place the mantissa in the lower bits. 1's complement it. Then put in the exponent, and 1's complement it again. Voila. When I first saw that, i just couldn't figure it out. I finally asked one of the gurus about it, and he told me that by doing that, if you compared FP numbers as if they were integers, the larger FP number would be the larger integer. Tests, loops, and compares all went at integer speed, avoiding a great deal of FP math. Weird, but FAST. Still makes me shudder a bit to think about it, though... Warren From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 2 22:07:13 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 20:07:13 -0700 Subject: A Complete History Of Mainframe Computing In-Reply-To: <4A4D6E9E.20600@databasics.us> References: <575131af0906301700p6e4f2af5x584e270e75b438e@mail.gmail.com>, <4A4CFF91.7176.1240850A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A4D6E9E.20600@databasics.us> Message-ID: <4A4D1371.28595.128E2829@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jul 2009 at 16:36, Warren Wolfe wrote: > The same is true of ForTran. The key was the bizarre way that > floating point numbers were stored. in a 60 bit word. The first 18 > bits (high order) were the exponent, and the remainder were the > mantissa. To assemble a FP value, place the mantissa in the lower > bits. 1's complement it. Then put in the exponent, and 1's > complement it again. Voila. Uh, you mean 12 bits, not 18. The mantissa was 48 bits. A and B registers were 18 bits (as was the A register in the PPUs). The high-order bit of an FP number was the sign of the mantissa; the exponent was biased by 2000 octal (i.e. range from 0000 to 3777). That was convenient because the 6000 had no condition codes-- conditional branches were performed based on the value of a specific register, so a sign test on the high-order bit worked for both integers and floating point numbers. 0000...000 was zero for both. The 6000 series had only add and subtract for 60 bit integers; multiply and divide on integers were performed by using the floating- point instructions. (There was later an "Integer Multiply" special feature that performed an integer multiply with the mantissas=0000 instead of 2000 (octal). It wasn't any faster, but you didn't have to pack and unpack (i.e. add and remove and exponent) the 2000 bias to the numbers). One oddity is that a double-precision operation involved issuing separate instructions to obtain the upper and lower parts of a result. So, to multiply two integers, you used the double-precision multiply and obtained the lower 48 bits of a 96 bit product. Normalization of the result mantissa was not guaranteed unless both operands were normalized. But in COBOL, a lot of fancy bit-twiddling (courtesy mostly of Rick James) allowed for direct addition of decimal numbers (10 digits at a pass), zero or space filling and quick conversion from decimal to binary with no branching. It was possible to write a memory-to- memory move that kept the both store units busy. Coding for that machine was fun--the scheduling rules for instructions were very well documented. --Chuck From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Jul 2 22:07:22 2009 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 20:07:22 -0700 Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <4A4CEDE8.9050701@jbrain.com> References: <4A4BE74B.27151.DF9B639@cclist.sydex.com><911C73B90051@dunfield.com> <4A4CEDE8.9050701@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <703419B241504EFE9E9744758838D909@liberator> Kaypro system disks are specific to the version of rom in it also :( From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Jul 3 00:19:46 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 22:19:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <703419B241504EFE9E9744758838D909@liberator> References: <4A4BE74B.27151.DF9B639@cclist.sydex.com><911C73B90051@dunfield.com> <4A4CEDE8.9050701@jbrain.com> <703419B241504EFE9E9744758838D909@liberator> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Jul 2009, Geoff Reed wrote: > Kaypro system disks are specific to the version of rom in it also :( Here's a point I was never quite clear on... Are disks readable across different machines? For instance, take a disk that was formatted and written on using a Kaypro 10. Is that disk readable on a Kaypro IV or Kaypro 4? How about reading a single-sided Kaypro II disk on one of the double-sider machines? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From bqt at softjar.se Thu Jul 2 03:26:19 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 10:26:19 +0200 Subject: Telnet access to classic mainframe/timesharing systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A4C6F2B.9050208@softjar.se> Michael Kerpan wrote: > I'd be interested to know what's out there vis a vis classic systems > that are on the Internet offering public access. Currently, I know of > twenex.org (emulated KL-10B DECSYSTEM-20 with Panda TOPS-20), > pdpplanet.com (a TOAD-1 with TOPS-20, a DECSYSTEM-10 2065 and a VAX > 780) and cray-cyber.org (an emulated CDC Cyber plus a rotating > selection of historic super computers on weekends), but is there > anything else? Is anybody running classic versions of UNIX (UCB-era > BSD, AT&T-era System III/V, V6/V7, etc) Is anybody running a public > IBM system? What about various lesser-known systems? Given that most > people used these systems through remote terminals to begin with, a > public access system would seem to be an ideal way to experience them, > but how many of them are available in such a way? A little surprised that people don't seem to know this, since it's been online for about fifteen years now (and I have made public announcements now and then all the time)... Update, in Sweden, have a PDP-11/70, which runs RSX, and have guest access. The machine is Magica.Update.UU.SE. Because a budget limit, along with a problematic cooling system a few years ago, we've had to restrict how much we can have that machine running, so we migrated all accounts to an emulated PDP-11/74 instead, called Mim.Update.UU.SE. So, just telnet to Mim.Update.UU.SE, and login with guest/guest, and you can play with RSX. Oh, and yes, Magica is still around as well. It just takes a turn of the key to get it online. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Thu Jul 2 07:10:11 2009 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 22:10:11 +1000 Subject: Wang LOCI-2A on eBay In-Reply-To: <4A4C5905.40405@mail.msu.edu> References: <4A4C5905.40405@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <110151DB-0CEA-4E77-8BCC-46CF119754F6@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 02/07/2009, at 4:51 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Item # 150356241047. > > Wish I had the disposable income for this. Neat old programmable > calculator, with blinkenlights! Wish I'd kept the one I was offered about 15 years ago. I'd used it as a high school student during a summer internship back in 1969/1970 to do precise resistor value calculations for a power supply I was building for some experiment. 15 years ago, it was found in a cupboard and someone rang me and asked if I wanted it.... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From tmanos at concursive.com Thu Jul 2 14:47:09 2009 From: tmanos at concursive.com (Tom Manos) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 15:47:09 -0400 Subject: Kaypro System disks? Message-ID: <53B3BAAE-6DF1-4ED4-99F3-57EA3C2C9F8D@concursive.com> Will a Kaypro really play nice with a 3.5" floppy drive? It never occurred to me to try it. I thought the floppy drivers under CP/M only knew about DD drives, and the bios on the boot disk was different between the various Kaypro models among other things to support the different floppies they had (SS/SD, SS/DD, DS/DD). Tom From josecvalle at gmail.com Thu Jul 2 15:33:06 2009 From: josecvalle at gmail.com (Jose carlos Valle) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 13:33:06 -0700 Subject: PDP-8/M H740 PSU woes In-Reply-To: <1246555083.13550.224.camel@pokoyo.tan.russellsharpe.com> References: <1246555083.13550.224.camel@pokoyo.tan.russellsharpe.com> Message-ID: I am curator of Museu do Computador(Computer Museum Brazil) And my Museum still closed for 2 years.. I do not have any solution, support, sponsor etc to reopen. We are a Non profit org.. But, I am a technician since 60's. I am not expert in to raise founds to open again my Museum. If someone have any idea, I will appreciate. Jose Carlos Valle htpp://blogdocurador.museudocomputador.com.br 2009/7/2 Tobias Russell : > I'm just in the midst of rebuilding a PDP-8/M which has the H740 PSU in > it (also fitted to 5.25" PDP-11/05s). > > I've cleaned the PSU up and reformed its capacitors, checked the > transformer is working fine. On replacing the switch mode circuit board > and powering up, I'm getting a blown fuse (F1 on circuit diagram) which > supplies the 5V and 15V rails. The -15V rail is working fine. > > Does anyway have any suggestions as to the best approach to locating the > problem? I've been pondering whether it would be possible to isolate > either the 5V or 15V circuit so I can see which of them is causing the > problem, but I can't see any simple way to achieve this. > > Also, is my practice of powering the PSU up without any load a foolish > one? I've not had any problems in the past using this approach but I > have seen people previously mention that running switch modes without a > load is a bad idea. > > A circuit diagram of the H740 can be found here: > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~djg/htdocs/cgi-bin/tifftopdf.cgi/h740.pdf?loc=newstuff > > Thanks, > Toby > > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > > -- Jos? Carlos Valle - Museu do Computador - desde 1998 Fones: (+5511) 4667-8079 e (+5511) 8794-6730 Informa??es sobre doa??es no Blog: http://blogdocurador.museudocomputador.com.br ATEN??O: Envie uma c?pia do formul?rio para este email. e mantenha uma c?pia junto com os equipamentos a serem doados. obrigado Visite nosso site: http://www.museudocomputador.com.br Office do Museu: Rua Itanhaem, 15 - Jardim Montezano - Itapecerica da Serra - CEP :06853-500- MAPA DO LOCAL: http://maps.google.com.br/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=pt-BR&msa=0&msid=108193747742585494988.00044509f44d84c574095&ll=-23.6878,-46.852183&spn=0.010965,0.017853&z=15&pw=1 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Jul 2 20:10:21 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 21:10:21 -0400 Subject: Kaypro System disks? Message-ID: <0KM600EXRLWU1QK0@vms173013.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Kaypro System disks? > From: Fred Cisin > Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 17:47:38 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> Will a Kaypro really play nice with a >> 3.5" floppy drive? It never occurred to me to try it. I >> thought the floppy drivers under CP/M only knew about DD >> drives, and the bios on the boot disk was different between >> the various Kaypro models among other things to support the >> different floppies they had (SS/SD, SS/DD, DS/DD). > >A 720K 3.5" IS a DD drive. >Depending on the specific model, the Kaypro will only see 40 tracks of the >3.5", and may or may not support using the second side. depends on the model and if it has one of the improved BIOS chips like Advent Turbo rom. I have a 4/84 with turborom, disk personality card and 1MB Ramdisk and it've very nice with four drives. One is 40track 2sided, the other two are fitted to the other half height slot and are two 3.5" floppies at 720k/781k as there are a few formats that get a bit more on a disk. The forth is tucked inside and used to hold stuff I always need. Note: the drives used are older Sony 720/1.44m drives with unit select switches. >There was substantial third party support (Advent? Micro Cornucopia, etc.) >for DS 80 track ("720K") drives on Kaypros. Advent was one I know well. I've seen others on line fairly recently. >One quirk about the Kaypro format, is that it puts an incorrect value in >the head number field of the sectors on the second side. But, it doesn't >seem to object to a disk having the correct value there. Head selection is not by the FDC (1793) but by a port. The FDC for side 2 is programmed as if it were side 1. A bit odd but there are worse. Allison >-- >Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From slawmaster at gmail.com Fri Jul 3 01:04:39 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 23:04:39 -0700 Subject: Telnet access to classic mainframe/timesharing systems In-Reply-To: <4A4C6F2B.9050208@softjar.se> References: <4A4C6F2B.9050208@softjar.se> Message-ID: <7d3530220907022304x50cb9a1dp317c67debb7d97b4@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 1:26 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Michael Kerpan wrote: > >> I'd be interested to know what's out there vis a vis classic systems >> that are on the Internet offering public access. Currently, I know of >> twenex.org (emulated KL-10B DECSYSTEM-20 with Panda TOPS-20), >> pdpplanet.com (a TOAD-1 with TOPS-20, a DECSYSTEM-10 2065 and a VAX >> 780) and cray-cyber.org (an emulated CDC Cyber plus a rotating >> selection of historic super computers on weekends), but is there >> anything else? Is anybody running classic versions of UNIX (UCB-era >> BSD, AT&T-era System III/V, V6/V7, etc) Is anybody running a public >> IBM system? What about various lesser-known systems? Given that most >> people used these systems through remote terminals to begin with, a >> public access system would seem to be an ideal way to experience them, >> but how many of them are available in such a way? > > A little surprised that people don't seem to know this, since it's been > online for about fifteen years now (and I have made public announcements now > and then all the time)... > Update, in Sweden, have a PDP-11/70, which runs RSX, and have guest access. > The machine is Magica.Update.UU.SE. > Because a budget limit, along with a problematic cooling system a few years > ago, we've had to restrict how much we can have that machine running, so we > migrated all accounts to an emulated PDP-11/74 instead, called > Mim.Update.UU.SE. > > So, just telnet to Mim.Update.UU.SE, and login with guest/guest, and you can > play with RSX. > > Oh, and yes, Magica is still around as well. It just takes a turn of the key > to get it online. > > ? ? ? ?Johnny And don't forget ITS (http://up.update.uu.se/) for all you lusers out there. John -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 3 01:20:37 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 23:20:37 -0700 Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: References: <4A4BE74B.27151.DF9B639@cclist.sydex.com>, <703419B241504EFE9E9744758838D909@liberator>, Message-ID: <4A4D40C5.18717.133F3607@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jul 2009 at 22:19, David Griffith wrote: > Here's a point I was never quite clear on... Are disks readable > across different machines? For instance, take a disk that was > formatted and written on using a Kaypro 10. Is that disk readable on > a Kaypro IV or Kaypro 4? How about reading a single-sided Kaypro II > disk on one of the double-sider machines? Natively, it was highly ROM-dependent as others have noted. However, I seem to remember a version of one of the interchange programs (Media Master?) for the Kaypro that could be used to read a wide range of formats. If you had a 96 tpi drive, the possibilities were even greater. Fred might remember... --Chuck From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Jul 3 02:40:23 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 09:40:23 +0200 Subject: OT Names was Re: chiclassiccomp.org was Re: Mysterious website In-Reply-To: <4A4C1A55.6070307@gmail.com> References: <01C9F8E9.0FAE0120@MSE_D03> <20090630171043.8874848b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1246378138.16337.1.camel@elric> <20090630121420.W90019@shell.lmi.net> <20090701094436.b2d02e3a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4A4C1A55.6070307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090703094023.96a1ce3f.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 22:24:21 -0400 Sridhar Ayengar wrote: [German name Fickeisen] > How did *that* name come about? The german (well indogerman, so englich too) word "ficken" in its original sense means "moving forward and backward" or to grind, rub, sweep, brush. So a "Fickeisen" would be a tool made of iron like a file. If you can read German: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ficken -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From classiccmp at crash.com Fri Jul 3 02:42:24 2009 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 00:42:24 -0700 Subject: Telnet access to moderately old UNIX boxes In-Reply-To: <12D432BE-F772-48E3-938C-BDD23D8494D0@concursive.com> References: <12D432BE-F772-48E3-938C-BDD23D8494D0@concursive.com> Message-ID: <4A4DB660.8020106@crash.com> Tom Manos wrote: > > I'm also interested to know if anyone out there with old systems is > interested in building a dark network for retro computing folks using > UUCP over tcp. I have this perverse urge to get pathalias running again > and build a little UUCP mapping project. Because my SVR4 box is on a > private network, I'll need to bounce through the linux box. I'd like to > implement a set of private USENET groups, and file transfer. This bit seems to have gotten lost in a discussion of VoIP codecs. I'd missed/forgotten that the UUCP Mapping Project had shutdown back in 2000. There are some old maps from 1998 available on ftp.uu.net for those with a need to kill time. But There's some interest, but I don't currently have any vintage systems that'd be up regularly enough to participate. --S. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Jul 3 02:46:14 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 09:46:14 +0200 Subject: Telnet access to moderately old UNIX boxes In-Reply-To: <4A4C1A86.6060002@gmail.com> References: <12D432BE-F772-48E3-938C-BDD23D8494D0@concursive.com> <20090701095623.4bf6ab97.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4A4C1A86.6060002@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090703094614.efd701c2.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 22:25:10 -0400 Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > What about SLIP/PPP? Perfect, if the target machine has no Ethernet. You can do things like tunneling SLIP / PPP over a SSH port forwarding. So a guest can make a local TCP/IP connection to the target machine. Somthing like a poor mans VPN. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Fri Jul 3 05:10:07 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 11:10:07 +0100 Subject: A Complete History Of Mainframe Computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0C7214BE-EA6B-4C55-B245-7C4B4B8997A4@microspot.co.uk> > From: Liam Proven > > 2009/7/1 Rich Alderson : >>> From: Liam Proven >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 5:00 PM >> >>> Tom's Hardware - a popular site for PC hardware tweakers and >>> overclockers - has done an ambitious article on the development of >>> the >>> mainframe: >> >>> http://www.tomshardware.com/picturestory/508-mainframe-computer-history.html >> >>> It's a little American-centric but it's not at all bad. >> >> *American*-centric!?! ?How about *IBM*-centric?!? >> >> After the 1960s, the only non-IBM product mentioned is the >> (minicomputer) >> VAX-11/780. ?(OK, *super*minicomputer, but even so...) >> >> And in the 1960s, the only other DEC product mentioned is *the >> PDP-8*???? >> (with a brushoff for several years of successful sales prior to the >> -8, no >> less.) ?Another mini, and no acknowledgement of the PDP-10 >> mainframe on which >> the bulk of the development of the modern Internet took place. >> >> It would be nice if they knew what they were talking about. >> >> IMAO, >> Rich > > Ohboy. Can't deny any of your observations, but I though that for a > site from a world that barely knows that anything other than x86 > exists or ever has, it wasn't too bad! The title was disgraceful. I don't mind US sources favouring US machines but calling it a complete history is akin to the Soviet state claiming every worthwhile invention was made by their citizens. > But don't tell us - tell them, in their comments boards, or mail the > author. I did but they can't take criticism and pulled my comments. > Or better still, write a complementary piece - hell, perhaps we could > do it collectively on the list as a group effort? - and submit it to > Tom's HW as a follow-on, filling in the gaps...? Yes it would have to be a joint effort. None of us can ever know it all, but can we cover enough? An approximate count up of 'big computer list' up to 1980 is about 7 to 8 hundred machines. I think this is too many. Should we perhaps limit it to production machines made in quantities of at least, say ten, or a hundred. But then would we want to omit machines like Atlas? Probably not. Any ideas on a more useful measure of what should be included? Roger Holmes. Who can write only the ICT 1300/1301/1302 series sections, complete with modern pictures. I've programmed other mainframes IBM 7094/CDC 6600/ICL 1905E/ICL 1904S/CDC SC17/CDC 7600/ICL 1906S but in most cases never got near them more than once each, and knew very little about the internal architecture. From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Fri Jul 3 05:14:56 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 11:14:56 +0100 Subject: A Complete History Of Mainframe Computing In-Reply-To: <0C7214BE-EA6B-4C55-B245-7C4B4B8997A4@microspot.co.uk> References: <0C7214BE-EA6B-4C55-B245-7C4B4B8997A4@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: Please dont forget Leo Dave Caroline From rickb at bensene.com Fri Jul 3 09:46:13 2009 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 07:46:13 -0700 Subject: Dynex DE-5020? In-Reply-To: References: <0C7214BE-EA6B-4C55-B245-7C4B4B8997A4@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: Hello, all, I've recently come across a device that looks like it is some kind of disk drive test exerciser made by Western Dynex. It's a small box with toggle switches in two groups. One group has nine switches labeled in powers of two from 1 to 256. The other group has five switches that appear to be two-way momentary contact (up|down) that are labeled BUSY +|BUSY -; DEC/HEAD 1|INC/HEAD 0; INITIAL/BOT DISK|REPET/TOP DISK; RECYCLE|LOAD REGISTER; LOAD COMMAND|CLEAR There are no indicator lamps on the device, just the switches. It has a ribbon cable that comes out of it that terminates in a paddle-type board that looks suspiciously like the paddle board that would plug into the drive electronics backplane of a DEC RK05 disk drive. I checked BitSavers, and there's no documents for Dynex or Western Dynex. I did a little searching, and it looks like Western Dynex made (or OEM'd) disk drives that were similar to the Diablo 30 drives, which were the basis of the DEC RK05. So, here's the questions: Does anyone know of this particular tester device, and can it be used to exercise RK05's. Anyone have any documentation that might explain how the thing is operated? Thanks in advance, Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From spedraja at ono.com Fri Jul 3 10:46:12 2009 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 17:46:12 +0200 Subject: Altos 686 and Xenix 3.2f help Message-ID: Well, big problem. The /xenix kernel of one Altos 686 with Xenix 3.2f is corrupted, and the security copy (as usual) don't recover. Someone can provide me one bootable floppy or tape for this machine and OS ? I shall try to recover the kernel, but in the worst case I should need to install again from this backup. But my impression is that I should need one floppy in all cases. Thanks Sergio From lynchaj at yahoo.com Fri Jul 3 11:53:13 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 12:53:13 -0400 Subject: S-100 prototyping boards available Message-ID: <05AE019CBB3149F88CE175B7F941C552@andrewdesktop> Hi!? Some people have asked for more information about the S-100 prototyping boards. They are available on VCGM, eBay (#270407288057) or from me directly. http://marketplace.vintage-computer.com/auction_details.php?name=N8VEM-S100- Prototyping-Board-PCB&auction_id=103791 My goal is to just recover the cost of the PCB manufacturing run -- not a commercial "for profit" venture. There has proven to be significantly less interest in S-100 home brew projects than I anticipated which is why I still have these boards available. If anyone would like to buy some please contact me by email. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 3 12:47:33 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 18:47:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dynex DE-5020? In-Reply-To: from "Rick Bensene" at Jul 3, 9 07:46:13 am Message-ID: > It's a small box with toggle switches in two groups. One group has nine > switches labeled in powers of two from 1 to 256. The other group has > five switches that appear to be two-way momentary contact (up|down) that > are labeled BUSY +|BUSY -; DEC/HEAD 1|INC/HEAD 0; INITIAL/BOT > DISK|REPET/TOP DISK; RECYCLE|LOAD REGISTER; LOAD COMMAND|CLEAR 'BOT DISK' / 'TOP DISK' suggests it might be an exerciser for one of those drives with 2 platters, one fixed and the other removable. I used one years ago that was badged (and maybe made) by Plessey, it linked to a normal RK11-D controller and appeared as a pair of RK05s. > There are no indicator lamps on the device, just the switches. What's inside it? Does it look to be simple (a few SSI TTL chips) or complicated (lots of TTL, or a microprocessor)? > > It has a ribbon cable that comes out of it that terminates in a > paddle-type board that looks suspiciously like the paddle board that > would plug into the drive electronics backplane of a DEC RK05 disk > drive. > > I checked BitSavers, and there's no documents for Dynex or Western > Dynex. I did a little searching, and it looks like Western Dynex made > (or OEM'd) disk drives that were similar to the Diablo 30 drives, which > were the basis of the DEC RK05. Err no. The Riablo 30 is the RK02 (low density) or RK03 (high density). The RK05 might look the same to software (although there are differences in the interface, particularly the drive select lines [1]), but internally it's quite different (the Dioblo 30 uses a permanent magnet DC motor as the head positioner, I am not joking, the thing's got brushes and a commutator!) [1] The Diablo 30 has 4 1-of-n select lines. The RK05 can be configured (by a pin o nthe itnerface connector) to either do that, or to have 3 binary-coded select lines. The RK11-C controller does 1-of-4 select, and can have up to 4 drives (RK05s or Diablo 30s) on each of 2 cables. The RK11-D uses binary select lines and can have 8 RK05s ona single cable. IIRC that Plessey drive I mentioned had a little PCB that plugged into the RK11-D drive connector containing a decoder chip to turn the 3-bit bunarly select into 1-of-n select. My guess is that this is some kind of drive exerciser, possibly to do repeating seek patterns (like the ones mentioned in the RK05 maintenance manual) that you use when settign up the postiioner waveforms. But I don't have the docs. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jul 3 13:19:09 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 11:19:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <0KM600EXRLWU1QK0@vms173013.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0KM600EXRLWU1QK0@vms173013.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20090703111524.C18129@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 2 Jul 2009, Allison wrote: > I have a 4/84 with turborom, disk personality card and 1MB Ramdisk > and it've very nice with four drives. One is 40track 2sided, the other > two are fitted to the other half height slot and are two 3.5" floppies at > 720k/781k as there are a few formats that get a bit more on a disk. > The forth is tucked inside and used to hold stuff I always need. That is a sweet setup. > Head selection is not by the FDC (1793) but by a port. The FDC for side 2 > is programmed as if it were side 1. A bit odd but there are worse. not a very serious oddity, but worth mentioning, to alert anybody writing conversion software on a PC that they will have to go slightly below INT13 and talk to the 765. Yes, there were some other formats that got SERIOUSLY weird. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jul 3 13:38:16 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 11:38:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <4A4D40C5.18717.133F3607@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4A4BE74B.27151.DF9B639@cclist.sydex.com>, <703419B241504EFE9E9744758838D909@liberator>, <4A4D40C5.18717.133F3607@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20090703111944.B18129@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 2 Jul 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Natively, it was highly ROM-dependent as others have noted. However, > I seem to remember a version of one of the interchange programs > (Media Master?) for the Kaypro that could be used to read a wide > range of formats. If you had a 96 tpi drive, the possibilities were > even greater. > > Fred might remember... I think that you're thinking of Uniform by MicroSolutions (DeKalb?) They really got going on Kaypro - were they bundled for a while? When they made their PC product, they talked to the 765 in order to handle the second side of Kaypro disks (and later, others with similar oddities). Later on, the nightmares of tech support of incompatabilities caused them to draw back to the INT13 level. Eventually, the success of their "Backpack" hardware permitted them to forget all about their earlier ventures. I thought that Media Master started on the PC? (and Rainbow!) XenoCopy started on TRS80, but didn't really get moving well until 8/1981 when I decided to switch to PC. After my experiences with Vertex distributing it, I have avoided publishers. Mike Gingel's HyperCross, TRSCross? was a later TRS80 and then PC product. 22Disk was the first (only?) successful shareware conversion product Flagstaff Engineering, Microtech Export, Discon (1 unit FSOT!) were hardware and software bundles. Who else was worthy of note? -- Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 3 14:02:19 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 12:02:19 -0700 Subject: Dynex DE-5020? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A4E55BB.5020108@bitsavers.org> >> I checked BitSavers, and there's no documents for Dynex or Western >> Dynex. I did a little searching, and it looks like Western Dynex made >> (or OEM'd) disk drives that were similar to the Diablo 30 drives, which >> were the basis of the DEC RK05. They built front loading and top loading disc drives, similar to Diablo, Caelus, and Pertec. I have a manual on the Dynex series 6000 which I'll upload. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 3 15:02:09 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 13:02:09 -0700 Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <20090703111944.B18129@shell.lmi.net> References: <4A4BE74B.27151.DF9B639@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A4D40C5.18717.133F3607@cclist.sydex.com>, <20090703111944.B18129@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4A4E0151.5924.162F5D0D@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jul 2009 at 11:38, Fred Cisin wrote: > I thought that Media Master started on the PC? (and Rainbow!) Yeah, things get pretty fuzzy after a couple of decades. It probably was Uniform that I was thinking of for the Kaypro. Another shareware conversion package for the PC was PC-Alien out of (ISTR) Australia. --Chuck From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri Jul 3 16:01:46 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 14:01:46 -0700 Subject: Pr1me tape drive at re-pc seattle Message-ID: <66CF5F94-7B19-4002-8DF5-BA32DE1A5EC0@mail.msu.edu> It's large and dirty and $25. Can't get to the back to find a model. Took a couple pics w my phone that I can share if anyone is interested... Josh From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jul 3 16:18:55 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 15:18:55 -0600 Subject: Telnet access to classic mainframe/timesharing systems In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 02 Jul 2009 23:04:39 -0700. <7d3530220907022304x50cb9a1dp317c67debb7d97b4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <7d3530220907022304x50cb9a1dp317c67debb7d97b4 at mail.gmail.com>, John Floren writes: > And don't forget ITS (http://up.update.uu.se/) for all you lusers out there= The above URL says: "(You can not connect using Telnet.)" So its not really relevant to a list of machines to which you can connect by telnet. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From slawmaster at gmail.com Fri Jul 3 16:24:51 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 14:24:51 -0700 Subject: Telnet access to classic mainframe/timesharing systems In-Reply-To: References: <7d3530220907022304x50cb9a1dp317c67debb7d97b4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7d3530220907031424r109f2f06sa227865a3069ba1f@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article <7d3530220907022304x50cb9a1dp317c67debb7d97b4 at mail.gmail.com>, > ? ?John Floren ?writes: > >> And don't forget ITS (http://up.update.uu.se/) for all you lusers out there= > > The above URL says: > > ? ? ? ?"(You can not connect using Telnet.)" > > So its not really relevant to a list of machines to which you can > connect by telnet. You can connect with SupDup, the super duper telnet. John -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Fri Jul 3 18:38:37 2009 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 16:38:37 -0700 Subject: Old Unix system IDRIS In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090703145141.024336d0@verizon.net> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090703145141.024336d0@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 12:04 PM, Douglas Taylor wrote: > I tinker with old laboratory equipment and got a Bio-Rad 3200 computer the > other day that runs a spectrometer. > > It is a 68030 based system that runs a version of Whitesmiths unix. ?It came > with a bunch of floppys dated 1992. > > It runs just fine and I would like to get advice on how to preserve the > contents of the small SCSI disk inside the computer and the floppys. > > As an aside, I didn't know any passwords to get me into the system. ?My > first try to log on as root using the password 'password' worked, I had to > laugh. Doug--- That's awesome! I have always wanted to play with Idris but it's almost impossible (as far as I know) to find systems that have it. Mark From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Jul 3 19:14:45 2009 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 20:14:45 -0400 Subject: A Complete History Of Mainframe Computing In-Reply-To: <0C7214BE-EA6B-4C55-B245-7C4B4B8997A4@microspot.co.uk> References: <0C7214BE-EA6B-4C55-B245-7C4B4B8997A4@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <4A4E9EF5.7030600@compsys.to> >Roger Holmes wrote: >> >From: Liam Proven > >> Or better still, write a complementary piece - hell, perhaps we could >> do it collectively on the list as a group effort? - and submit it to >> Tom's HW as a follow-on, filling in the gaps...? > > > Yes it would have to be a joint effort. None of us can ever know it > all, but can we cover enough? An approximate count up of 'big > computer list' up to 1980 is about 7 to 8 hundred machines. I think > this is too many. Should we perhaps limit it to production machines > made in quantities of at least, say ten, or a hundred. But then would > we want to omit machines like Atlas? Probably not. Any ideas on a > more useful measure of what should be included? Just a suggestion. Up to about 1960, most (all?) computers were vacuum tubes. You might want to use that for the initial separation and specify a different set of parameters for vacuum tubes vs transistors. In addition, very early computers were often one of a kind. Prior to 1945, most would have been classified due to the war effort. I am not sure that those systems could even properly be called computers. For example, the IBM punched card equipment was certainly not a computer, but could have be used (and probably was) to build a data base. Up to 1950, perhaps even 1955, a university may have built the computer, so access would have been much different than for a commercial system. The quantity would also have been very different than for a computer built by a commercial company. As for a useful measure, an initial list might be helpful with the organization which built the computer, an estimate of the number produced and the basic hardware type (vacuum tubes vs transistors). That list might yield valuable insight as to which computers are valuable to be included. Certainly, the value for the numbers produced will likely show that the production totals increased decade by decade and that during the early years, small numbers (less than ten - often only one) would not preclude a computer from be included in a list of important systems. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From evan at snarc.net Fri Jul 3 20:07:46 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 21:07:46 -0400 Subject: A Complete History Of Mainframe Computing In-Reply-To: <4A4E9EF5.7030600@compsys.to> References: <0C7214BE-EA6B-4C55-B245-7C4B4B8997A4@microspot.co.uk> <4A4E9EF5.7030600@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4A4EAB62.7000300@snarc.net> > Up to about 1960, most (all?) computers were vacuum tubes. There were a few transistor computers from the military, etc. .... there was also RECOMP, which was a commercially available computer weighing just 200 lbs. from Autonetics in 1958. I don't know much about its internals but I assume it used transistors to be that small. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 3 20:30:36 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 18:30:36 -0700 Subject: A Complete History Of Mainframe Computing In-Reply-To: <4A4E9EF5.7030600@compsys.to> References: , <0C7214BE-EA6B-4C55-B245-7C4B4B8997A4@microspot.co.uk>, <4A4E9EF5.7030600@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4A4E4E4C.24461.175C1185@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jul 2009 at 20:14, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Just a suggestion. Up to about 1960, most (all?) computers were > vacuum tubes. You might want to use that for the initial separation > and specify a different set of parameters for vacuum tubes vs > transistors. ...except when they weren't. (e.g. Univac SS80/SS90--only the clock generator used tubes--all of the computation was magnetic logic, diodes and transistors). NEAC 1101/1102 (parametrons). There were certainly others. --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Jul 4 00:07:39 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 22:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Old Unix system IDRIS In-Reply-To: from Mark Davidson at "Jul 3, 9 04:38:37 pm" Message-ID: <200907040507.n6457duG012554@floodgap.com> > > I tinker with old laboratory equipment and got a Bio-Rad 3200 computer the > > other day that runs a spectrometer. > > > > It is a 68030 based system that runs a version of Whitesmiths unix. _It came > > with a bunch of floppys dated 1992. > > > > It runs just fine and I would like to get advice on how to preserve the > > contents of the small SCSI disk inside the computer and the floppys. > > > > As an aside, I didn't know any passwords to get me into the system. _My > > first try to log on as root using the password 'password' worked, I had to > > laugh. > > That's awesome! I have always wanted to play with Idris but it's > almost impossible (as far as I know) to find systems that have it. Allegedly some of the Alpha Micro clones will run it too. Never seen one though (AMs aren't exactly common themselves, let alone AM clones). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- It is a tremendous Mitzvah to be happy always! -- Reb. Nachman ------------- From mailman at trailing-edge.com Fri Jul 3 09:32:40 2009 From: mailman at trailing-edge.com (mailman at trailing-edge.com) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 10:32:40 -0400 Subject: Write-only backup media and big archives Message-ID: <20090703143240.034A4BA4B78@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Not really a mechanical or procedural thing, but a little more philosophical as I think about data storage not just at home for classic computing, but at work: In the 90's the CD-R and soon after the DVD-R looked pretty ideal for making "write only" backups of what was then considered large amounts of data. While not archival in the centuries sense, it seemed a pretty safe bet that readers would be readily available for the next 10 or 20 years and I think this bet has turned out well. I was willing to spend an afternoon buring a dozen or two CD-R's because they felt "real". But today, a "large amount of data" is not a few gigabytes, but terabytes. Tape libraries with these sorts of capacities do exist but aren't available at the corner store and I have a nagging mistrust of tapes that causes me to refer to them as "write only memory". (I never really ever trusted anything denser than 1600BPI 9-track!). Burning 2000 CD-R's or even 500 DVD-R's doesn't seem like a reasonable or useful task to backup a terabyte hard drive (which today is a fraction the price of the 9 Gig drives of the mid-90's that was "big storage".) At the same time, the ubiquitous and available-at-the-corner-store terabyte-sized USB drives don't feel awfully reliable either. They are way more convenient and cheap though, and that's my prefered backup media today. I think I'm falling into the trap of confusing the price of storage with the value of the information recorded onto the storage. It's ironic that as disk space has become cheaper and cheaper, we regard the contents as less worthy of the effort of backup onto reliable media. OK, philosophy mode off. The NTSB is gonna be asking me for a few gigabytes of data next week and that seems easy compared to the terabytes at home. Tim. From dj.taylor4 at verizon.net Fri Jul 3 14:04:17 2009 From: dj.taylor4 at verizon.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 15:04:17 -0400 Subject: Old Unix system IDRIS Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090703145141.024336d0@verizon.net> I tinker with old laboratory equipment and got a Bio-Rad 3200 computer the other day that runs a spectrometer. It is a 68030 based system that runs a version of Whitesmiths unix. It came with a bunch of floppys dated 1992. It runs just fine and I would like to get advice on how to preserve the contents of the small SCSI disk inside the computer and the floppys. As an aside, I didn't know any passwords to get me into the system. My first try to log on as root using the password 'password' worked, I had to laugh. Doug From bruce at Wild-Hare.com Fri Jul 3 15:26:29 2009 From: bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 14:26:29 -0600 Subject: Nova 4/C Questions References: <219551.7367.qm@web30604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00dd01c9fc1c$8fbbc060$60b8fd4b@linksys> G'day Dave - I have been on a business trip and classiccmp viewing has not been possible. Briefly, the Nova 4 series consisted of three (3) main family members: Nova 4/C Nova 4/S Nova 4/X The Nova 4/C (perhaps for "Compact") was a 32KW computer on a single board; The Nova 4/S ("Standard") consisted of a CPU board and 32KW memory board; The Nova 4/X ("Extended) consisted of CPU board with MMPU (Memory Map and Protection Unit) and 128 KW memory board. The 005-xxxxxx-yy model numbers for the series included: Nova 4/C: 005-008390 Nova 4/S: 005-008392 Nova 4/X: 005-008394 The "005-xxxxxx" numbers are usually located on the board reinforcement strip in between the two board insertion/extraction handles. This indicates the definitive type of each board and its options. Each Nova 4 CPU board has a "standard" RS-232 port for the main "soft console". The backplane pin-outs for the serial port have been a Data General standard since 1970 - this machine is no different. Please contact me off-list so I can arrange to get full installation and maintenance manuals to you. Bruce Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. bkr at WildHareComputers.com ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 10:05 AM Subject: Nova 4/C Questions > > I'm assessing a pair of Nova 4/C chassis that I have had for a few months. > One of the units has a CPU but no memory; the other has a MOS memory board > but no battery backup unit. > > Can anyone tell me whether older Nova core memory is compatible with the > 4/C processor (I suspect not), and whether the battery backup unit is > required for the memory to operate, or whether it was just sold as an > option ? I think the wiring is there for it in the chassis. > > My notes and some photographs are online at > http://comley.us/browse.php?&action=show&artefactID=1054 > > Thanks, > -Dave > From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Jul 4 00:20:44 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 01:20:44 -0400 Subject: Write-only backup media and big archives References: <20090703143240.034A4BA4B78@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <97B4EAD4C5D34FB9942B24415075AEA5@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 10:32 AM Subject: Write-only backup media and big archives > Not really a mechanical or procedural thing, but a little more > philosophical as I think about data storage not just at home > for classic computing, but at work: > > In the 90's the CD-R and soon after the DVD-R looked pretty ideal > for making "write only" backups of what was then considered large > amounts of data. While not archival in the centuries sense, it > seemed a pretty safe bet that readers would be readily available for > the next 10 or 20 years and I think this bet has turned out well. > I was willing to spend an afternoon buring a dozen or two CD-R's > because they felt "real". > > But today, a "large amount of data" is not a few gigabytes, but > terabytes. Tape libraries with these sorts of capacities do > exist but aren't available at the corner store > and I have a nagging mistrust of tapes that causes me to refer > to them as "write only memory". (I never really ever trusted anything > denser than 1600BPI 9-track!). Burning 2000 CD-R's or even 500 DVD-R's > doesn't seem like a reasonable or useful task to backup a terabyte > hard drive (which today is a fraction the price of the 9 Gig drives of the > mid-90's that was "big storage".) > > At the same time, the ubiquitous and available-at-the-corner-store > terabyte-sized USB drives don't feel awfully reliable either. They > are way more convenient and cheap though, and that's my prefered > backup media today. > > I think I'm falling into the trap of confusing the price of storage > with the value of the information recorded onto the storage. It's > ironic that as disk space has become cheaper and cheaper, we regard > the contents as less worthy of the effort of backup onto reliable > media. > > OK, philosophy mode off. The NTSB is gonna be asking me for a few > gigabytes of data next week and that seems easy compared to the > terabytes at home. > You left out MO media, which was popular before CDR/DVDR came out and was meant to last a while (and DVD-RAM which was late to the game). How much of the home users HD is filled with their original content and how much is just downloaded material they can download again if they even noticed it was gone? Businesses seem to have some kind of backup/archive proceedure but few home users do anything outside of just dumping it to another HD. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Jul 4 04:22:09 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 10:22:09 +0100 Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <20090703111524.C18129@shell.lmi.net> References: <0KM600EXRLWU1QK0@vms173013.mailsrvcs.net> <20090703111524.C18129@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1246699329.28905.16.camel@elric> On Fri, 2009-07-03 at 11:19 -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 2 Jul 2009, Allison wrote: > > I have a 4/84 with turborom, disk personality card and 1MB Ramdisk > > and it've very nice with four drives. One is 40track 2sided, the other > > two are fitted to the other half height slot and are two 3.5" floppies at > > 720k/781k as there are a few formats that get a bit more on a disk. > > The forth is tucked inside and used to hold stuff I always need. > > That is a sweet setup. > > > Head selection is not by the FDC (1793) but by a port. The FDC for side 2 > > is programmed as if it were side 1. A bit odd but there are worse. > > not a very serious oddity, but worth mentioning, to alert anybody writing > conversion software on a PC that they will have to go slightly below INT13 > and talk to the 765. > Yes, there were some other formats that got SERIOUSLY weird. Ensoniq Mirage, single-sided double-density with five 1024-byte sectors followed by one 512-byte sector. I still can't figure out how to format such a thing on a PC. Gordon From pontus at update.uu.se Sat Jul 4 04:26:28 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 11:26:28 +0200 Subject: Old Unix system IDRIS In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090703145141.024336d0@verizon.net> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090703145141.024336d0@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4A4F2044.2080901@update.uu.se> Douglas Taylor wrote: > I tinker with old laboratory equipment and got a Bio-Rad 3200 computer > the other day that runs a spectrometer. > > It is a 68030 based system that runs a version of Whitesmiths unix. > It came with a bunch of floppys dated 1992. > > It runs just fine and I would like to get advice on how to preserve > the contents of the small SCSI disk inside the computer and the floppys. > Tossing the drive into a modern machine with some unix on it would let you do a image with dd. For the floppies it might be easiest to do images on the drive in the IDRIS system, dd should be present in most unices. /P From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jul 4 08:53:25 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 13:53:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Write-only backup media and big archives Message-ID: <920786.62312.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> I was recently wondering how harddrives and USB memory sticks would hold up against an EMP burst (from a very close lightning strike). Data stored on a CD/DVD wouldn't be effected, but it is far easier to do backups to tape, a 2nd harddrive or a USB stick than CDs/DVDs. Of course CDs/DVDs could be damaged by heat. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Fri, 3/7/09, mailman at trailing-edge.com wrote: From: mailman at trailing-edge.com Subject: Write-only backup media and big archives To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Friday, 3 July, 2009, 3:32 PM Not really a mechanical or procedural thing, but a little more philosophical as I think about data storage not just at home for classic computing, but at work: In the 90's the CD-R and soon after the DVD-R looked pretty ideal for making "write only" backups of what was then considered large amounts of data. While not archival in the centuries sense, it seemed a pretty safe bet that readers would be readily available for the next 10 or 20 years and I think this bet has turned out well. I was willing to spend an afternoon buring a dozen or two CD-R's because they felt "real". But today, a "large amount of data" is not a few gigabytes, but terabytes. Tape libraries with these sorts of capacities do exist but aren't available at the corner store and I have a nagging mistrust of tapes that causes me to refer to them as "write only memory". (I never really ever trusted anything denser than 1600BPI 9-track!). Burning 2000 CD-R's or even 500 DVD-R's doesn't seem like a reasonable or useful task to backup a terabyte hard drive (which today is a fraction the price of the 9 Gig drives of the mid-90's that was "big storage".) At the same time, the ubiquitous and available-at-the-corner-store terabyte-sized USB drives don't feel awfully reliable either. They are way more convenient and cheap though, and that's my prefered backup media today. I think I'm falling into the trap of confusing the price of storage with the value of the information recorded onto the storage. It's ironic that as disk space has become cheaper and cheaper, we regard the contents as less worthy of the effort of backup onto reliable media. OK, philosophy mode off. The NTSB is gonna be asking me for a few gigabytes of data next week and that seems easy compared to the terabytes at home. Tim. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Jul 4 10:28:11 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 16:28:11 +0100 Subject: MicroVAX II Diagnostics Message-ID: <030c01c9fcbc$0bda31f0$238e95d0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> I have a version of the diagnostics that does not run on my MicroVAX II because it has insufficient memory (I think some of it is bad), so I am trying to load the original diagnostics that came with the machine because that does not complain about available memory, but I am having trouble reading the whole tape. The listing below is of what I have successfully recovered from the tape, I was wondering if anyone has the full set of diagnostics that match the listing I have below. Thanks Rob GGSKMADA.EXE;1 10 19-NOV-1985 00:00:00.00 GGSKMADAMSG.EXE;1 37 19-NOV-1985 00:00:00.00 GGSKMDHA.EXE;1 42 19-NOV-1985 00:00:00.00 GGSKMDHAMSG.EXE;1 18 19-NOV-1985 00:00:00.00 GGSKMDLA.EXE;1 21 19-NOV-1985 00:00:00.00 GGSKMDLAMSG.EXE;1 13 19-NOV-1985 00:00:00.00 GGSKMDMA.EXE;1 34 19-NOV-1985 00:00:00.00 GGSKMDMAMSG.EXE;1 22 19-NOV-1985 00:00:00.00 GGSKMDPA.EXE;1 61 19-NOV-1985 00:00:00.00 GGSKMDPAMSG.EXE;1 18 19-NOV-1985 00:00:00.00 GGSKMDRA.EXE;1 31 19-NOV-1985 00:00:00.00 GGSKMDRAMSG.EXE;1 20 19-NOV-1985 00:00:00.00 GGSKMDZA.EXE;1 52 19-NOV-1985 00:00:00.00 GGSKMDZAMSG.EXE;1 19 19-NOV-1985 00:00:00.00 GGSKMIEA.EXE;1 38 19-NOV-1985 00:00:00.00 GGSKMIEAMSG.EXE;1 18 19-NOV-1985 00:00:00.00 GGSKMKAA.EXE;1 37 19-NOV-1985 00:00:00.00 GGSKMKAAMSG.EXE;1 9 19-NOV-1985 00:00:00.00 GGSKMKDA.EXE;1 177 19-NOV-1985 00:00:00.00 GGSKMKDAMSG.EXE;1 44 19-NOV-1985 00:00:00.00 GGSKMKMA.EXE;1 63 19-NOV-1985 00:00:00.00 GGSKMKMAMSG.EXE;1 21 19-NOV-1985 00:00:00.00 GGSKMKWA.EXE;1 27 19-NOV-1985 00:00:00.00 GGSKMKWAMSG.EXE;1 23 19-NOV-1985 00:00:00.00 GGSKMLPA.EXE;1 15 19-NOV-1985 00:00:00.00 GGSKMLPAMSG.EXE;1 10 19-NOV-1985 00:00:00.00 GGSKMMSA.EXE;1 37 19-NOV-1985 00:00:00.00 GGSKMMSAMSG.EXE;1 12 19-NOV-1985 00:00:00.00 GGSKMRRA.EXE;1 84 19-NOV-1985 00:00:00.00 GGSKMRRAMSG.EXE;1 37 19-NOV-1985 00:00:00.00 GGSKMRXA.EXE;1 97 19-NOV-1985 00:00:00.00 GGSKMRXAMSG.EXE;1 41 19-NOV-1985 00:00:00.00 GGSKMTKA.EXE;1 56 19-NOV-1985 00:00:00.00 GGSKMTKAMSG.EXE;1 27 19-NOV-1985 00:00:00.00 GGSKMTSA.EXE;1 44 19-NOV-1985 00:00:00.00 GGSKMTSAMSG.EXE;1 14 19-NOV-1985 00:00:00.00 GGSKMVCA.EXE;1 39 19-NOV-1985 00:00:00.00 GGSKMVCAMSG.EXE;1 14 19-NOV-1985 00:00:00.00 GGSKMXQA.EXE;1 45 19-NOV-1985 00:00:00.00 GGSKMXQAMSG.EXE;1 17 19-NOV-1985 00:00:00.00 SYSBOOT.EXE;1 557 19-NOV-1985 00:00:00.00 From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 4 11:16:09 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 09:16:09 -0700 Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <1246699329.28905.16.camel@elric> References: <0KM600EXRLWU1QK0@vms173013.mailsrvcs.net>, <20090703111524.C18129@shell.lmi.net>, <1246699329.28905.16.camel@elric> Message-ID: <4A4F1DD9.4748.1A86CFFF@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jul 2009 at 10:22, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Ensoniq Mirage, single-sided double-density with five 1024-byte > sectors followed by one 512-byte sector. > > I still can't figure out how to format such a thing on a PC. It's probably doable with a little chicanery. The 765 when formatting doesn't actually care what you're putting down in the individual sector IDAMs; for the track layout it goes by the information in the command. One way to accomplish such a format is to lay a track out using smaller sectors, say 256 bytes, and specify the needed sector sizes in the IDAMs of the sectors that most closely correspond to the physical location of the required sectors. This is what the old IBM XDF formatter does. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 4 11:21:40 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 09:21:40 -0700 Subject: Write-only backup media and big archives In-Reply-To: <920786.62312.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <920786.62312.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A4F1F24.15749.1A8BDAB5@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jul 2009 at 13:53, Andrew Burton wrote: > I was recently wondering how harddrives and USB memory sticks would > hold up against an EMP burst (from a very close lightning strike). > Data stored on a CD/DVD wouldn't be effected, but it is far easier to > do backups to tape, a 2nd harddrive or a USB stick than CDs/DVDs. Of > course CDs/DVDs could be damaged by heat. I do backups to USB flash routinely and store them in a metal file box. I worry more far more about damage from fire than from EMP. Storing a duplicate set of backups off-site is always a good move--I periodically rotate a set through the safety deposit box at my bank (offered at no charge to depositors). --Chuck From spedraja at ono.com Sat Jul 4 11:50:21 2009 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 18:50:21 +0200 Subject: HP-250 Message-ID: One HP 250 in eBay, num. 200305540332 Very sad.. these don't appears in Europe. Regards Sergio From brain at jbrain.com Sat Jul 4 11:51:09 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 11:51:09 -0500 Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <918488BE1F51@dunfield.com> References: <911C73B90051@dunfield.com> <918488BE1F51@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <4A4F887D.9060506@jbrain.com> Dave Dunfield wrote: > >> I checked the main page: >> http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm but a lot of the links >> are invalid. >> > > using the links will see the notices contained therein - in fact I moved > them this morning after seeing that someone had posted a link directly to > the system images directory (even though each of those pages has a note > asking people NOT to link directly to the sub-pages). > I saw your warning, and I suspect I was looking at the archive while you were moving it. The links were all pointing to : http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img06062/... at the time I tried to access. Jim From brain at jbrain.com Sat Jul 4 11:53:06 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 11:53:06 -0500 Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <918488BE1F51@dunfield.com> References: <911C73B90051@dunfield.com> <918488BE1F51@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <4A4F88F2.3040907@jbrain.com> Dave Dunfield wrote: > Unlike Commodore & Apple, the Kaypro uses standard diskette drives, and you > should be able to make them work on a PC. > This is an important distinction. Spending so much time in the CBM world, the mere idea that drive mechs could be re-used would have never entered my mind. Good to know. Jim From spedraja at ono.com Sat Jul 4 11:53:16 2009 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 18:53:16 +0200 Subject: HP-250 and DATA GENERAL ECLIPSE S-120 Message-ID: And in the same travel to pickup it you can get this one too: 200303090120 One HP 250 in eBay, num. 200305540332 > > Very sad.. these don't appears in Europe. > > Regards > Sergio > > From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jul 4 14:16:43 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 19:16:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Write-only backup media and big archives Message-ID: <66932.92978.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Thanks. I'll hunt down a box for my backups, and can store? a backup set elsewhere. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Sat, 4/7/09, Chuck Guzis wrote: From: Chuck Guzis Subject: Re: Write-only backup media and big archives To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Saturday, 4 July, 2009, 5:21 PM On 4 Jul 2009 at 13:53, Andrew Burton wrote: > I was recently wondering how harddrives and USB memory sticks would > hold up against an EMP burst (from a very close lightning strike). > Data stored on a CD/DVD wouldn't be effected, but it is far easier to > do backups to tape, a 2nd harddrive or a USB stick than CDs/DVDs. Of > course CDs/DVDs could be damaged by heat. I do backups to USB flash routinely and store them in a metal file box.? I worry more far more about damage from fire than from EMP.??? Storing a duplicate set of backups off-site is always a good move--I periodically rotate a set through the safety deposit box at my bank (offered at no charge to depositors). --Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jul 4 18:02:47 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 23:02:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Inside (and exploding) Electrolytic Capicators Message-ID: <10679.52328.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi, Just discovered this cool video by Jeri Ellsworth that is on YouTube. The first part many of you probably know already (but I found very educational), but I'm sure you'll all enjoy the last part (exploding capicators, captured at 1200fps). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uq5gLrGumR0 Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sat Jul 4 21:07:23 2009 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 22:07:23 -0400 Subject: A Complete History Of Mainframe Computing In-Reply-To: <4A4E4E4C.24461.175C1185@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <0C7214BE-EA6B-4C55-B245-7C4B4B8997A4@microspot.co.uk>, <4A4E9EF5.7030600@compsys.to> <4A4E4E4C.24461.175C1185@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A500ADB.6090601@compsys.to> >Chuck Guzis wrote: >>On 3 Jul 2009 at 20:14, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >>Just a suggestion. Up to about 1960, most (all?) computers were >>vacuum tubes. You might want to use that for the initial separation >>and specify a different set of parameters for vacuum tubes vs >>transistors. >> >...except when they weren't. (e.g. Univac SS80/SS90--only the clock >generator used tubes--all of the computation was magnetic logic, >diodes and transistors). NEAC 1101/1102 (parametrons). There were >certainly others. > > Then I suggest that you change 1960 to whatever year you feel comfortable with. Notice that I said ABOUT 1960. The key point that I was attempting to make was that computers which were mostly based on vacuum tubes were far different in one key aspect than computers mostly based on transistors, i.e. the power used and the heat that was generated. The resulting overhead of running computers such as the IBM 709 vs the IBM 7090 was probably sufficient to have a definite impact on availability even though both computers did the same calculations, at least that is an assumption that I think is probably reasonable - can anyone verify this. I know that Johnny Billquist has stated that their PDP-11/70 computers have been replaced by the E11 emulator running on a current PC due the the cost of running the DEC hardware, so I would expect that the same sort of situation was critical in switching from vacuum tubes to transistors. And I believe that I seem to remember other PDP-11 also users stating the same thing when they switched, let alone the fact that I can run RT-11 about 100 times faster under E11 on a 2.66 GHz core 2 duo (E8200) than a DEC PDP-11/93. So just pick whichever year that you feel is the dividing year between vacuum tube computers and transistor computers. Then see if the parameters which make a given model of computer significant are the same or if the parameters change. My guess is that at the very least, the number produced of any given model of vacuum computer will be significantly less, on average, than any given model of transistor computer. I image that other parameters will also change. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From sbolton at bfree.on.ca Sat Jul 4 21:32:05 2009 From: sbolton at bfree.on.ca (Syd Bolton) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 22:32:05 -0400 Subject: Almost 200 issues of BYTE for FREE and More In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <026f01c9fd18$c95fa1e0$5c1ee5a0$@on.ca> Hey folks. This is Syd from the Personal Computer Museum (http://www.pcmuseum.ca) in Brantford, Ontario, Canada. I promised I'd post these a long time ago but basically we have close to 200 DUPLICATE BYTE magazines. There are way too many to list so we've taken photos. Here's the deal: the magazines are FREE but you have to either pick them up or pay for shipping/handling. I should have some additional copies of Volume 2 issues available shortly as well but for now, these are it. These links are to HI REZ versions of the photos so if you are running on dialup...or using your vintage computer to read this, be warned. http://www.pcmuseum.ca/mags/bytes1.jpg http://www.pcmuseum.ca/mags/bytes2.jpg http://www.pcmuseum.ca/mags/bytes3.jpg http://www.pcmuseum.ca/mags/bytes4.jpg http://www.pcmuseum.ca/mags/bytes5.jpg http://www.pcmuseum.ca/mags/bytes6.jpg http://www.pcmuseum.ca/mags/bytes7.jpg http://www.pcmuseum.ca/mags/bytes8.jpg I also have a near complete collection of Compute!'s Gazette for Commodore 64/128 available: http://www.pcmuseum.ca/mags/cgazette.jpg And a collection of PC Gamers and some 80 Micro (more 80 Micro coming) http://www.pcmuseum.ca/mags/PCGamer.jpg So again--free to good home. Maybe if you have something you'd like to see in the museum we can do a swap/trade for shipping even or something too. I'm flexible! Have a great day. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 4 21:49:51 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 19:49:51 -0700 Subject: A Complete History Of Mainframe Computing In-Reply-To: <4A500ADB.6090601@compsys.to> References: , <4A4E4E4C.24461.175C1185@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A500ADB.6090601@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4A4FB25F.30809.37C6A0@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jul 2009 at 22:07, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > So just pick whichever year that you feel is the dividing year between > vacuum tube computers and transistor computers. Then see if the > parameters which make a given model of computer significant are the > same or if the parameters change. My guess is that at the very least, > the number produced of any given model of vacuum computer will be > significantly less, on average, than any given model of transistor > computer. I image that other parameters will also change. I think I understand what you're saying, but the effect's going to be masked by the gradual growing acceptance of computers in general and the decreasing recurring cost per unit of commodity parts, such as core memories and the improvements in components such as solid-state diodes and printed circuit boards. It's a tough call. But your point is taken. --Chuck From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Sun Jul 5 00:20:50 2009 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 22:20:50 -0700 Subject: Almost 200 issues of BYTE for FREE and More In-Reply-To: <026f01c9fd18$c95fa1e0$5c1ee5a0$@on.ca> References: <026f01c9fd18$c95fa1e0$5c1ee5a0$@on.ca> Message-ID: Syd--- Are you wanting one person to take them all at once, or are you willing to let people request specific issues? Thanks! Mark Davidson mdavidson1963 at gmail.com On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 7:32 PM, Syd Bolton wrote: > Hey folks. This is Syd from the Personal Computer Museum > (http://www.pcmuseum.ca) in Brantford, Ontario, Canada. > > I promised I'd post these a long time ago but basically we have close to 200 > DUPLICATE BYTE magazines. > There are way too many to list so we've taken photos. Here's the deal: the > magazines are FREE but you have to either pick them up or pay for > shipping/handling. > > I should have some additional copies of Volume 2 issues available shortly as > well but for now, these are it. > > These links are to HI REZ versions of the photos so if you are running on > dialup...or using your vintage computer to read this, be warned. > > http://www.pcmuseum.ca/mags/bytes1.jpg > http://www.pcmuseum.ca/mags/bytes2.jpg > http://www.pcmuseum.ca/mags/bytes3.jpg > http://www.pcmuseum.ca/mags/bytes4.jpg > http://www.pcmuseum.ca/mags/bytes5.jpg > http://www.pcmuseum.ca/mags/bytes6.jpg > http://www.pcmuseum.ca/mags/bytes7.jpg > http://www.pcmuseum.ca/mags/bytes8.jpg > > I also have a near complete collection of Compute!'s Gazette for Commodore > 64/128 available: > > http://www.pcmuseum.ca/mags/cgazette.jpg > > And a collection of PC Gamers and some 80 Micro (more 80 Micro coming) > > http://www.pcmuseum.ca/mags/PCGamer.jpg > > So again--free to good home. Maybe if you have something you'd like to see > in the museum we can do a swap/trade for shipping even or something too. I'm > flexible! Have a great day. > > From dj.taylor4 at verizon.net Sat Jul 4 07:53:34 2009 From: dj.taylor4 at verizon.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 08:53:34 -0400 Subject: Old Unix system IDRIS In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090703145141.024336d0@verizon.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090704084932.0243eb08@verizon.net> At 07:38 PM 7/3/2009, you wrote: >On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 12:04 PM, Douglas Taylor wrote: > > I tinker with old laboratory equipment and got a Bio-Rad 3200 computer the > > other day that runs a spectrometer. > > > > It is a 68030 based system that runs a version of Whitesmiths > unix. It came > > with a bunch of floppys dated 1992. > > > > It runs just fine and I would like to get advice on how to preserve the > > contents of the small SCSI disk inside the computer and the floppys. > > > > As an aside, I didn't know any passwords to get me into the system. My > > first try to log on as root using the password 'password' worked, I had to > > laugh. > >Doug--- > >That's awesome! I have always wanted to play with Idris but it's >almost impossible (as far as I know) to find systems that have it. > >Mark I've only been on the system a few times, but the commands are definitely Unix. I'm spoiled because of Linux, Idris did not have commands like more, and df is different. The hardware is a single board computer with a co-processor board of some sort, probably floating point. The box looks like an ancient 1st generation IBM PC, with a huge on/off switch on the side. From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sat Jul 4 09:45:14 2009 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 09:45:14 -0500 Subject: Telnet access to classic mainframe/timesharing systems References: <4A4C6F2B.9050208@softjar.se> Message-ID: <00bd01c9fcb6$0bb5a1b0$6400a8c0@acerd3c08b49af> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Johnny Billquist" To: Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 3:26 AM Subject: Re: Telnet access to classic mainframe/timesharing systems > A little surprised that people don't seem to know this, since it's been > online for about fifteen years now (and I have made public announcements > now and then all the time)... > Update, in Sweden, have a PDP-11/70, which runs RSX, and have guest > access. The machine is Magica.Update.UU.SE. > Because a budget limit, along with a problematic cooling system a few > years ago, we've had to restrict how much we can have that machine > running, so we migrated all accounts to an emulated PDP-11/74 instead, > called Mim.Update.UU.SE. > > So, just telnet to Mim.Update.UU.SE, and login with guest/guest, and you > can play with RSX. > > Oh, and yes, Magica is still around as well. It just takes a turn of the > key to get it online. > > Johnny > > -- > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol > Thanks for that. I know nothing about RSX, but I stayed long enough to achieve a new high score in Mad Bomber and execute a 1-line Basic program. :) Later, Charlie Carothers -- My email address is csquared3 at tx dot rr dot com From lee_courtney at acm.org Sat Jul 4 14:11:58 2009 From: lee_courtney at acm.org (Lee Courtney (ACM)) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 12:11:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP-250 and DATA GENERAL ECLIPSE S-120 Message-ID: <302909.81095.qm@web35305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Looks like it is missing the integral console CRT display as can be seen here: http://www.sieler.com/hp250/. I don;t know enough about the 250 to know if it would still be usable without this, or how easily a substitute could be used. Lee Courtney --- On Sat, 7/4/09, SPC wrote: > From: SPC > Subject: HP-250 and DATA GENERAL ECLIPSE S-120 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Saturday, July 4, 2009, 9:53 AM > And in the same travel to pickup it > you can get this one too: 200303090120 > > One HP 250 in eBay, num. 200305540332 > > > > Very sad.. these don't appears in Europe. > > > > Regards > > Sergio > > > > > From leaknoil at comcast.net Sat Jul 4 19:17:13 2009 From: leaknoil at comcast.net (Pete) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 17:17:13 -0700 Subject: Old Unix system IDRIS In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090704084932.0243eb08@verizon.net> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090703145141.024336d0@verizon.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20090704084932.0243eb08@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4A4FF109.2020008@comcast.net> Douglas Taylor wrote: > > I've only been on the system a few times, but the commands are > definitely Unix. I'm spoiled because of Linux, Idris did not have > commands like more, and df is different. The hardware is a single > board computer with a co-processor board of some sort, probably > floating point. The box looks like an ancient 1st generation IBM PC, > with a huge on/off switch on the side. I am going to guess you bought ebay item 270418666033 since it disappeared off my watch list right before you posted. Some good pictures of it in the listing if so. Is that company a CIA front ? They sell nothing but, spy gear and laboratory equipment. Some of the stuff they sell honestly creeps me out a bit. From ray at arachelian.com Sun Jul 5 09:43:59 2009 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 10:43:59 -0400 Subject: Goodbye Compuserve Message-ID: <4A50BC2F.9050100@arachelian.com> I only got to use this service a few times back in my younger days, and even then, only with the demo accounts, and that at 300 baud (yes, baud, not just BPS.) I really couldn't afford their insane prices, but from what I saw back in the day, it was a huge, vast place with lots of goodies. http://www.boingboing.net/2009/07/03/compuserve-shuts-dow.html http://www.basexblog.com/2009/07/03/compuserve-requiem/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 5 11:00:03 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 09:00:03 -0700 Subject: Goodbye Compuserve In-Reply-To: <4A50BC2F.9050100@arachelian.com> References: <4A50BC2F.9050100@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4A506B93.28188.30B352C@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Jul 2009 at 10:43, Ray Arachelian wrote: > I only got to use this service a few times back in my younger days, > and even then, only with the demo accounts, and that at 300 baud (yes, > baud, not just BPS.) I really couldn't afford their insane prices, but > from what I saw back in the day, it was a huge, vast place with lots > of goodies. For me, (76130, 1400, if memory serves), CIS was a mainstay. Lots of companies used it to communicate to their customers. Need to get a registration number for your 16-bit Windows device driver? You could submit the request online on CIS, for example. I was a heavy user of the $8.95/month text-only service and it was a bargain particularly in that I coiuld send and receive Usenet email in addition to CIS's own. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Jul 5 12:30:49 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 13:30:49 -0400 Subject: Goodbye Compuserve In-Reply-To: <4A50BC2F.9050100@arachelian.com> References: <4A50BC2F.9050100@arachelian.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 10:43 AM, Ray Arachelian wrote: > I only got to use this service a few times back in my younger days, and > even then, only with the demo accounts, and that at 300 baud (yes, baud, > not just BPS.) I still have my VIC Modem I used with my first C-64. I didn't like the terminal program that came with the modem, so I wrote my own. I don't recall the precise steps, but somehow from that, I was a beta tester for Vidtex for the C-64 (a CompuServe-written enhanced terminal emulator that added file transfer and mostly-platform-independent color block graphics). Many years later, when I worked there, I was showing off my old copy of the Vidtex terminal program to my new co-workers, and one of them (who is one of the few still employed there as of the shutdown) was especially astounded that anyone still had a copy of the software that he had worked on. > I really couldn't afford their insane prices, but from what I saw back > in the day, it was a huge, vast place with lots of goodies. It was a lot of fun in the early 80s, but it was expensive. I remember $5-$6/hour in the evenings at 300 baud (I never owned a 1200 baud modem while I was using CompuServe, but even if I had, I really couldn't have afforded the on-line charges). I didn't get into CB much. I think I spent most of my time playing Colossal Cave and the Scott Adams adventures. A few years later, CompuServe installed a node into COSI, the local science museum where I was a student volunteer. I want to say it was a KS-10 but I could be wrong on that. It was called the CIVIC project. It lived in a fishbowl room on the corner of the second floor, and besides just showing off a cool computer at a museum, it was meant to be used for running projects for non-profit grantees who needed computer time (and especially line-printer-time, it seems). One of the fun bits of that exhibit was a set of wee kiosks covered in various informatory placards that each held a C-64 attached up to "The Service", as it was called. You couldn't navigate to certain parts (like anything where you could order real-world stuff or incur extra time charges), but you could at least get a feel for what CompuServe was offering by walking up and using it for free. They used to have to shoo the student volunteers away from that area during visitor hours. Too tempting. -ethan 74505,1677 From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Sun Jul 5 12:47:16 2009 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 10:47:16 -0700 Subject: Goodbye Compuserve In-Reply-To: References: <4A50BC2F.9050100@arachelian.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 10:30 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 10:43 AM, Ray Arachelian wrote: >> I only got to use this service a few times back in my younger days, and >> even then, only with the demo accounts, and that at 300 baud (yes, baud, >> not just BPS.) > > > I still have my VIC Modem I used with my first C-64. ?I didn't like > the terminal program that came with the modem, so I wrote my own. ?I > don't recall the precise steps, but somehow from that, I was a beta > tester for Vidtex for the C-64 (a CompuServe-written enhanced terminal > emulator that added file transfer and mostly-platform-independent > color block graphics). ?Many years later, when I worked there, I was > showing off my old copy of the Vidtex terminal program to my new > co-workers, and one of them (who is one of the few still employed > there as of the shutdown) was especially astounded that anyone still > had a copy of the software that he had worked on. > >> I really couldn't afford their insane prices, but from what I saw back >> in the day, it was a huge, vast place with lots of goodies. > > It was a lot of fun in the early 80s, but it was expensive. ?I > remember $5-$6/hour in the evenings at 300 baud (I never owned a 1200 > baud modem while I was using CompuServe, but even if I had, I really > couldn't have afforded the on-line charges). ?I didn't get into CB > much. ?I think I spent most of my time playing Colossal Cave and the > Scott Adams adventures. > > A few years later, CompuServe installed a node into COSI, the local > science museum where I was a student volunteer. ?I want to say it was > a KS-10 but I could be wrong on that. ?It was called the CIVIC > project. ?It lived in a fishbowl room on the corner of the second > floor, and besides just showing off a cool computer at a museum, it > was meant to be used for running projects for non-profit grantees who > needed computer time (and especially line-printer-time, it seems). > One of the fun bits of that exhibit was a set of wee kiosks covered in > various informatory placards that each held a C-64 attached up to "The > Service", as it was called. ?You couldn't navigate to certain parts > (like anything where you could order real-world stuff or incur extra > time charges), but you could at least get a feel for what CompuServe > was offering by walking up and using it for free. ?They used to have > to shoo the student volunteers away from that area during visitor > hours. ?Too tempting. > > ?-ethan > 74505,1677 > Oh man... 72330,756... I spent WAY too much money on this service, but I had a blast while doing so. I had a stint where I was working 2nd shift and did both development and system administration for 2 companies. I was pretty much by myself while working these hours, so I had a modem and a terminal set up for CIS usage. It kept me from losing my mind... :) Mark From halarewich at gmail.com Sun Jul 5 13:36:16 2009 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 11:36:16 -0700 Subject: Goodbye Compuserve In-Reply-To: References: <4A50BC2F.9050100@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <6d6501090907051136u4e2a3802v48bae51e8c8aeebf@mail.gmail.com> a couple posters comments from the boingboing article One of the largest collections of DECsystem-10 architecture systems ever assembled was at CompuServe, which at its peak operated over 200 loosely-coupled systems in three data centers in Columbus, Ohio. CompuServe used these systems as 'hosts', providing access to commercial applications as well as the CompuServe Information Service. While the first such systems were purchased from DEC, when DEC abandoned the PDP-10 architecture in favor the VAX, CompuServe and other PDP-10 customers began purchasing plug-compatible computers from Systems Concepts. As of January 2007, CompuServe continues to operate a small number of PDP-10 architecture machines to perform some billing and routing functions. Compuserve used to put their servers/routers/whatever the hell they were in the basements of local H & R Block offices. Telco would bring dozens of rotary POTS lines up to those machines for inbound connections from local citizens/customers, then hi-cap lines would go out to the interweb. Clever & definitely a cheap-o way of doing things, wish I'd have thought of it. A drawback was when there was trouble at the location: if it wasn't tax season the lines & machines were hard to get access to, outages would go for days. Also, H & R Block was notorious to telco for really poor phone systems & computer networks, so if their communications folks had anything to do with Compuserve, it was bound to be clunky. On 7/5/09, Mark Davidson wrote: > > On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 10:30 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 10:43 AM, Ray Arachelian > wrote: > >> I only got to use this service a few times back in my younger days, and > >> even then, only with the demo accounts, and that at 300 baud (yes, baud, > >> not just BPS.) > > > > > > I still have my VIC Modem I used with my first C-64. I didn't like > > the terminal program that came with the modem, so I wrote my own. I > > don't recall the precise steps, but somehow from that, I was a beta > > tester for Vidtex for the C-64 (a CompuServe-written enhanced terminal > > emulator that added file transfer and mostly-platform-independent > > color block graphics). Many years later, when I worked there, I was > > showing off my old copy of the Vidtex terminal program to my new > > co-workers, and one of them (who is one of the few still employed > > there as of the shutdown) was especially astounded that anyone still > > had a copy of the software that he had worked on. > > > >> I really couldn't afford their insane prices, but from what I saw back > >> in the day, it was a huge, vast place with lots of goodies. > > > > It was a lot of fun in the early 80s, but it was expensive. I > > remember $5-$6/hour in the evenings at 300 baud (I never owned a 1200 > > baud modem while I was using CompuServe, but even if I had, I really > > couldn't have afforded the on-line charges). I didn't get into CB > > much. I think I spent most of my time playing Colossal Cave and the > > Scott Adams adventures. > > > > A few years later, CompuServe installed a node into COSI, the local > > science museum where I was a student volunteer. I want to say it was > > a KS-10 but I could be wrong on that. It was called the CIVIC > > project. It lived in a fishbowl room on the corner of the second > > floor, and besides just showing off a cool computer at a museum, it > > was meant to be used for running projects for non-profit grantees who > > needed computer time (and especially line-printer-time, it seems). > > One of the fun bits of that exhibit was a set of wee kiosks covered in > > various informatory placards that each held a C-64 attached up to "The > > Service", as it was called. You couldn't navigate to certain parts > > (like anything where you could order real-world stuff or incur extra > > time charges), but you could at least get a feel for what CompuServe > > was offering by walking up and using it for free. They used to have > > to shoo the student volunteers away from that area during visitor > > hours. Too tempting. > > > > -ethan > > 74505,1677 > > > > Oh man... 72330,756... I spent WAY too much money on this service, but > I had a blast while doing so. I had a stint where I was working 2nd > shift and did both development and system administration for 2 > companies. I was pretty much by myself while working these hours, so > I had a modem and a terminal set up for CIS usage. It kept me from > losing my mind... :) > > Mark > From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Jul 5 14:01:04 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 14:01:04 -0500 Subject: Goodbye Compuserve In-Reply-To: <4A50BC2F.9050100@arachelian.com> References: <4A50BC2F.9050100@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4A50F870.1070500@oldskool.org> Ray Arachelian wrote: > I really couldn't afford their insane prices, but from what I saw back > in the day, it was a huge, vast place with lots of goodies. There were very many files that only lived on Compuserve, discovered as desirable by me long after the file areas were gone. This is especially tragic since all of compuserve's file areas would fit onto a single cheap hard drive nowadays. I wish there was an archive of those files somewhere. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Jul 5 17:25:14 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 15:25:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Goodbye Compuserve In-Reply-To: <4A50BC2F.9050100@arachelian.com> References: <4A50BC2F.9050100@arachelian.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Jul 2009, Ray Arachelian wrote: > I only got to use this service a few times back in my younger days, and > even then, only with the demo accounts, and that at 300 baud (yes, baud, > not just BPS.) > I really couldn't afford their insane prices, but from what I saw back > in the day, it was a huge, vast place with lots of goodies. > > http://www.boingboing.net/2009/07/03/compuserve-shuts-dow.html > http://www.basexblog.com/2009/07/03/compuserve-requiem/ I was under the impression that the classic Compuserve was discontinued at least ten years ago. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jul 5 18:17:22 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 16:17:22 -0700 Subject: Goodbye Compuserve In-Reply-To: References: <4A50BC2F.9050100@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4A513482.70400@jetnet.ab.ca> David Griffith wrote: > On Sun, 5 Jul 2009, Ray Arachelian wrote: > >> I only got to use this service a few times back in my younger days, and >> even then, only with the demo accounts, and that at 300 baud (yes, baud, >> not just BPS.) >> I really couldn't afford their insane prices, but from what I saw back >> in the day, it was a huge, vast place with lots of goodies. >> >> http://www.boingboing.net/2009/07/03/compuserve-shuts-dow.html >> http://www.basexblog.com/2009/07/03/compuserve-requiem/ > > I was under the impression that the classic Compuserve was > discontinued at least ten years ago. > Same here. The other factor back then too, often your nearest data centre, was still a goodly sum long distance call. Ben. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 5 19:42:22 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 17:42:22 -0700 Subject: A classic sighting this week Message-ID: <4A50E5FE.16159.4E965FB@cclist.sydex.com> Right now, the "This" network is showing the movie "Billion Dollar Brain" (1967). Stars Michael Caine, Karl Malden, Ed Begley and Oscar Homolka. Terrible plot and acting, but some really great shots of a Honeywell H200 system in operation. *So* much sexier-looking than an IBM 1401. Anyone on the list ever use one? --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Jul 5 20:39:10 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 21:39:10 -0400 Subject: Goodbye Compuserve In-Reply-To: References: <4A50BC2F.9050100@arachelian.com> Message-ID: On 7/5/09, David Griffith wrote: > I was under the impression that the classic Compuserve was discontinued at > least ten years ago. Nearly all the old menu-based content probably did vanish 10 years ago. The dial-up networking, the octal PPNs, the e-mail addresses, the custom apps like the airline flight crew housing and city check-in system - those have been working perfectly the whole time. The 36-bit Systems Concepts machines in Upper Arlington, Ohio (the former CompuServe headquarters) that kept it all going were what was shut down last week. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Jul 5 20:46:38 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 21:46:38 -0400 Subject: Goodbye Compuserve In-Reply-To: <4A513482.70400@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4A50BC2F.9050100@arachelian.com> <4A513482.70400@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 7/5/09, Ben wrote: > The other factor back then too, often your nearest data centre, > was still a goodly sum long distance call. Maybe in some parts (like the complaint on the discussion thread on Slashdot about the PA customer who only had two numbers to call in their area code, and both were long-distance from their house), but since I grew up a few miles from the main building, we never had a problem in Central Ohio with free access numbers. There was great coverage close to home. I never even used to get busy signals, not even when the service was at the peak of its popularity 25 years ago. Of course, paying per hour meant that people got on, did their thing, then got off. BBSes were another thing entirely - those were hard to get into back then, except when Star Trek was on TV. Mysteriously, the modems were easier to reach at that time of the evening. -ethan From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Sun Jul 5 21:08:06 2009 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 19:08:06 -0700 Subject: Goodbye Compuserve In-Reply-To: References: <4A50BC2F.9050100@arachelian.com> <4A513482.70400@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: Does anyone have any idea what they are going to do with all those old machines? Mark On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 6:46 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 7/5/09, Ben wrote: >> The other factor back then too, often your nearest data centre, >> was still a goodly sum long distance call. > > Maybe in some parts (like the complaint on the discussion thread on > Slashdot about the PA customer who only had two numbers to call in > their area code, and both were long-distance from their house), but > since I grew up a few miles from the main building, we never had a > problem in Central Ohio with free access numbers. ?There was great > coverage close to home. I never even used to get busy signals, not > even when the service was at the peak of its popularity 25 years ago. > Of course, paying per hour meant that people got on, did their thing, > then got off. ?BBSes were another thing entirely - those were hard to > get into back then, except when Star Trek was on TV. ?Mysteriously, > the modems were easier to reach at that time of the evening. > > -ethan > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Jul 5 21:28:42 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 22:28:42 -0400 Subject: Goodbye Compuserve In-Reply-To: References: <4A50BC2F.9050100@arachelian.com> <4A513482.70400@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 7/5/09, Mark Davidson wrote: > Does anyone have any idea what they are going to do with all those old machines? If I had a good answer, I'd have already rented a truck. ;-) I _think_ they will end up either as spares for the ones at WorldCom (since there are still machines from before the split running a few miles away) or end up somewhere else. At no time have I heard a breath of a hint that they were tossing them out, damn the luck. -ethan From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Jul 5 22:11:54 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 23:11:54 -0400 Subject: Goodbye Compuserve In-Reply-To: References: <4A50BC2F.9050100@arachelian.com> <4A513482.70400@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4A516B7A.6050907@gmail.com> Mark Davidson wrote: > Does anyone have any idea what they are going to do with all those old machines? Yeah. I'd definitely go pay scrap value if they'd be willing. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jul 5 22:47:27 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 23:47:27 -0400 Subject: Goodbye Compuserve In-Reply-To: References: <4A50BC2F.9050100@arachelian.com> <4A513482.70400@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <18C8BD5F-756E-4072-9DCF-E9DB8F4E5FB3@neurotica.com> An acquaintance of mine in Maryland is somehow involved in that. I believe he is getting at least one. I'm going to ping him about it and try to find out what's up. -Dave On Jul 5, 2009, at 10:08 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: > Does anyone have any idea what they are going to do with all those > old machines? > > Mark > > On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 6:46 PM, Ethan Dicks > wrote: >> On 7/5/09, Ben wrote: >>> The other factor back then too, often your nearest data centre, >>> was still a goodly sum long distance call. >> >> Maybe in some parts (like the complaint on the discussion thread on >> Slashdot about the PA customer who only had two numbers to call in >> their area code, and both were long-distance from their house), but >> since I grew up a few miles from the main building, we never had a >> problem in Central Ohio with free access numbers. There was great >> coverage close to home. I never even used to get busy signals, not >> even when the service was at the peak of its popularity 25 years ago. >> Of course, paying per hour meant that people got on, did their thing, >> then got off. BBSes were another thing entirely - those were hard to >> get into back then, except when Star Trek was on TV. Mysteriously, >> the modems were easier to reach at that time of the evening. >> >> -ethan >> -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jul 5 22:51:49 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 23:51:49 -0400 Subject: Goodbye Compuserve In-Reply-To: <4A516B7A.6050907@gmail.com> References: <4A50BC2F.9050100@arachelian.com> <4A513482.70400@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A516B7A.6050907@gmail.com> Message-ID: <999844CF-FDF5-44DA-8C4B-34532D49C7F2@neurotica.com> On Jul 5, 2009, at 11:11 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Does anyone have any idea what they are going to do with all those >> old machines? > > Yeah. I'd definitely go pay scrap value if they'd be willing. Scrap value, for a pile of SC40s? More like "first born". -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Jul 5 22:56:20 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 23:56:20 -0400 Subject: Goodbye Compuserve In-Reply-To: <999844CF-FDF5-44DA-8C4B-34532D49C7F2@neurotica.com> References: <4A50BC2F.9050100@arachelian.com> <4A513482.70400@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A516B7A.6050907@gmail.com> <999844CF-FDF5-44DA-8C4B-34532D49C7F2@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A5175E4.2000708@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jul 5, 2009, at 11:11 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> Does anyone have any idea what they are going to do with all those >>> old machines? >> >> Yeah. I'd definitely go pay scrap value if they'd be willing. > > Scrap value, for a pile of SC40s? More like "first born". No, once machine, of course. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From dj.taylor4 at verizon.net Sun Jul 5 11:08:43 2009 From: dj.taylor4 at verizon.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 12:08:43 -0400 Subject: Old Unix system IDRIS In-Reply-To: <4A4FF109.2020008@comcast.net> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090703145141.024336d0@verizon.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20090704084932.0243eb08@verizon.net> <4A4FF109.2020008@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090705115953.02419388@verizon.net> At 08:17 PM 7/4/2009, you wrote: >Douglas Taylor wrote: >> >>I've only been on the system a few times, but the commands are >>definitely Unix. I'm spoiled because of Linux, Idris did not have >>commands like more, and df is different. The hardware is a single >>board computer with a co-processor board of some sort, probably >>floating point. The box looks like an ancient 1st generation IBM >>PC, with a huge on/off switch on the side. > >I am going to guess you bought ebay item 270418666033 since it >disappeared off my watch list right before you posted. Some good >pictures of it in the listing if so. Is that company a CIA front ? >They sell nothing but, spy gear and laboratory equipment. Some of >the stuff they sell honestly creeps me out a bit. > > What creeps you out? The lie detectors? The satellite phones? I don't know where they get their inventory, but they have some interesting stuff. I think a lot of it comes from universities. I also got the spectrometer head, but, alas, although the unit was complete the KBR beamsplitter was in very bad shape. The spectrometer has an air bearing and needs an compressed air supply, which I don't have. I also requires 20 degrees C water. From mj at mjturner.net Mon Jul 6 04:46:59 2009 From: mj at mjturner.net (Michael-John Turner) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 10:46:59 +0100 Subject: FTGH: Hardware, including Sun and HP kit (Surrey, UK) Message-ID: <20090706094659.GA14233@aurora.pimp.org.za> Hi all, I'm busy with one of those periodic cleanups and need to cull some of the hardware I haven't played with in some time. I have the following to give away: 1 x Sun SPARCclassic 1 x Sun Ultra 1 170 1 x Sun Ultra 1E 170 1 x Sun Ultra 5 (360Mhz) 1 x Sun Ultra 10 (333Mhz) 1 x HP B132L 1 x Sun Ultra 60 (1x300Mhz CPU) 1 x PC (Athlon 1.4Ghz, 512MiB, 40GB HD, GeForce 4MX) 1 x PC server (Celeron 300A @ 450Mhz CPU, 512MiB, 9GB HD, full-tower case, etc) The Suns all have HDs of various sizes and RAM. I have a pile of SCA drives so can probably fit each machine with a pair of 4, 9 or 18GB drives and at least 256MB RAM. - 2Ghz Athlon 'Thunderbird' CPU - Various SCSI, SCA and IDE drives - 10-40GB (quite a few 9 and 18GB SCA drives) - Various UPA Elite 3D / Creator 3D cards (all vertical, some with daughterboards) - Various SCSI and IDE CD-ROM and CD-RW drives - Lots of serial / SCSI cables (internal and external) - 8 port Accton fast ethernet switch - Various Logitech and Microsoft keyboards and mice Everything above is in working order. Collection is preferred but I am willing to ship if the cost of shipping is covered (I'll charge for actual S&H). I'm based near Gatwick airport in the UK (RH6 postcode) but can deliver if you're between junctions 8 and 14 on the M25 if you twist my arm hard enough. I really would like to find good homes for this hardware - I spent a fair amount of time (and money!) collecting it so would hate to have to send it to the recyclers. -mj -- Michael-John Turner mj at mjturner.net <> http://mjturner.net/ From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Jul 6 05:43:24 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 03:43:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LSI ADM3A with an unusual keyboard Message-ID: <387835.42547.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I just acquired a rather unusual ADM3A. At first glance, it looks just like every other ADM3A, in beige rather than the more popular blue, but still, common. This particular terminal has an unusual keyboard: The key to the left of "Q", usually Escape, is labeled "SAMPLE COPY". The key in the upper right, usually "~/HOME", is labeled "STOP" The key to the left of RETURN, usually "Line Feed", is now "STATUS". The key to the right of RETURN, usually "HERE IS", is blank. Directly below return, the "\" key is now RUBOUT, shifted is "|" To the right of that key, is a double-width key, "CONTINUE" The key in the lower right, usually "CLEAR" is blank. Other oddities are the lack of arrows on the J and K keys, while they remain on the H and L keys. X also bears DELETE. And, like every other ADM3A out there, this one is missing the logo plate, so no OEM markings available. Any ideas what system this might have been used on? Inside looks pretty normal. Lower case option is not installed. -Ian From pontus at update.uu.se Mon Jul 6 07:49:31 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 14:49:31 +0200 Subject: A classic sighting this week In-Reply-To: <4A50E5FE.16159.4E965FB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4A50E5FE.16159.4E965FB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A51F2DB.6080706@update.uu.se> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Right now, the "This" network is showing the movie "Billion Dollar > Brain" (1967). Stars Michael Caine, Karl Malden, Ed Begley and Oscar > Homolka. Terrible plot and acting, but some really great shots of a > Honeywell H200 system in operation. > > *So* much sexier-looking than an IBM 1401. Anyone on the list ever > use one? > > --Chuck > > cool looking machine. This is a great site for this topic: http://starringthecomputer.com/feature.php?f=40 /P From doc at vaxen.net Mon Jul 6 09:07:22 2009 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 09:07:22 -0500 Subject: More stuff: IBM Warp 3.0 Message-ID: <4A52051A.5040300@vaxen.net> One copy of Blue Spine on floppy w/Bonus Pack One copy of Red Spine w/ Bonus Pack on CD Neither is Warp Connect, sorry.... $20 each, shipped. Reply off-list, please Doc From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jul 6 10:00:24 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 09:00:24 -0600 Subject: LSI ADM3A with an unusual keyboard In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 06 Jul 2009 03:43:24 -0700. <387835.42547.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sounds like someone replaced the keycaps with keys specific to a particular application? Can you post a link to a photo of the keyboard? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 6 10:20:52 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 08:20:52 -0700 Subject: A classic sighting this week In-Reply-To: <4A51F2DB.6080706@update.uu.se> References: <4A50E5FE.16159.4E965FB@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A51F2DB.6080706@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4A51B3E4.27081.80DD122@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Jul 2009 at 14:49, Pontus wrote: > cool looking machine. This is a great site for this topic: > > http://starringthecomputer.com/feature.php?f=40 The shot of the IBM 029 with the logo carefully taped over with a "HONEYWELL" sticker is pretty funny. Given that (as evidenced by the closing credits) the whole setup was provided by Honeywell, there was no way that the name "IBM" would ever be permitted to appear in the film. In one shot of the machine room, there is visible a bank of tape drives on the other side of a window. Anyone know what they are? --Chuck From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Jul 6 11:14:49 2009 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 12:14:49 -0400 Subject: Goodbye Compuserve In-Reply-To: <4A50BC2F.9050100@arachelian.com> References: <4A50BC2F.9050100@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4A5222F9.90507@verizon.net> Ray Arachelian wrote: > I only got to use this service a few times back in my younger days, and > even then, only with the demo accounts, and that at 300 baud (yes, baud, > not just BPS.) > I really couldn't afford their insane prices, but from what I saw back > in the day, it was a huge, vast place with lots of goodies. I discovered compuserve from a flyer that was included with my Radio Shack direct connect 300 baud modem. It was "in-line", no acoustic coupler required. :) Set the switch to answer/originate, and then press the big red button on the right to connect. Literally turned the carrier on and off. The only phone that my parents could spare was a pulse-only phone. Thank god for the redial button. Made he** for trying to get into busy BBS's. I used endless numbers of CIS demo accounts to get access. The price was absurd, even at 300 baud. As others mentioned, the price scaled with the baud rate. Want 1200 baud, or 9600 baud? You'd pay through the nose. I always wondered who actually paid those prices. Good stuff though. I downloaded Pittsburgh BBS lists from there which really put me in contact with other TRS-80 COCO users (I had a CoCo II) and as they say, the rest is history. They had download sections. And was it access to usenet? and/or fidonet? Wasn't the form "GO _____?" I think they had online whitepages, and reverse phone number lookup. Once I discovered the internet, I completely forgot about CIS. I accessed CIS through the telenet dialups (as I assume everyone did?) As a kid, I wondered what other systems I could connect to using similar numbers. The numbers (did someone else call them PPNs?) were so dense, and security almost nonexistent for many of the systems, that I had a lot of fun times poking around. Keith From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Jul 6 11:24:12 2009 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 12:24:12 -0400 Subject: Goodbye Compuserve In-Reply-To: <4A50F870.1070500@oldskool.org> References: <4A50BC2F.9050100@arachelian.com> <4A50F870.1070500@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4A52252C.4070708@verizon.net> Jim Leonard wrote: > There were very many files that only lived on Compuserve, discovered as > desirable by me long after the file areas were gone. This is especially > tragic since all of compuserve's file areas would fit onto a single > cheap hard drive nowadays. I wish there was an archive of those files > somewhere. Jim, Yes, that would be a loss indeed if that stuff wasn't somehow preserved. It's interesting, that even with my personal stuff, that the importance of the data seems to increase w/ the length of time since last access. Data that I considered worthless at the time seems invaluable now. Absence makes the heart grow fonder. or something. My parents encouraged me to sell my CoCo II to upgrade. Made $25. Maybe $20. With it, I can't help but feel I sold many childhood memories along with it. I'd certainly really like to take a peak into my mind of 24 years ago. Ahhh well. Keith From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Jul 6 11:51:07 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 09:51:07 -0700 Subject: A classic sighting this week References: <4A50E5FE.16159.4E965FB@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A51F2DB.6080706@update.uu.se> <4A51B3E4.27081.80DD122@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A522B7A.FC5894EA@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 6 Jul 2009 at 14:49, Pontus wrote: > > > cool looking machine. This is a great site for this topic: > > > > http://starringthecomputer.com/feature.php?f=40 > > The shot of the IBM 029 with the logo carefully taped over with a > "HONEYWELL" sticker is pretty funny. Given that (as evidenced by the > closing credits) the whole setup was provided by Honeywell, there was > no way that the name "IBM" would ever be permitted to appear in the > film. Indeed, someone went a little overboard with product placement in that movie, compare the front panel shown in the movie (last photo on web site above) and that shown in a photo on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honeywell_200 From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 6 12:16:32 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 10:16:32 -0700 Subject: A classic sighting this week In-Reply-To: <4A522B7A.FC5894EA@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4A50E5FE.16159.4E965FB@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A522B7A.FC5894EA@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4A51CF00.29109.877CA39@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Jul 2009 at 9:51, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Indeed, someone went a little overboard with product placement in that > movie, compare the front panel shown in the movie (last photo on web > site above) and that shown in a photo on Wikipedia: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honeywell_200 Addresses? We don't need no stinking addresses! Doubtless some props guy was given a roll of adhesive "Honeywell" labels and instructed to make sure that *every* piece of equipment had the Honeywell label. In the case of the 029, the label hasn't even been affixed so it's straight! On a related subject, does anyone know of any web-based photos of Emmett's "Forget me not" Computer? All traces seem to have vanished-- and archive.org comes up empty. --Chuck From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Mon Jul 6 12:56:36 2009 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 10:56:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: For the SGI guys: Craigslist FS: (2) SGI Origin 200 + Vault Message-ID: <165538.21868.qm@web112215.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://newjersey.craigslist.org/sys/1255484427.html FS: (2) SGI Origin 200 + Vault + GIGAchannel - $100 (nnj) Reply to: sale-pg53h-1255484427 at craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads?] Date: 2009-07-06, 9:12AM EDT Forsale is some SGI gear. There is 2 Origin200's, 2 Vaults and 2 GIGAChannels. One gigachannel has a modified SI xio card so you can run them w/ graphics. No faceplates or skins - just the bare metal. All works. There are some extra XIO cards included in the GIGAChannels. I also have some craylink cables so you can cluster. Cash & carry. * Location: nnj * it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests From wulfcub at gmail.com Mon Jul 6 14:02:53 2009 From: wulfcub at gmail.com (Wulf daMan) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 14:02:53 -0500 Subject: LSI ADM3A with an unusual keyboard In-Reply-To: <387835.42547.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <387835.42547.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: This is a terminal customized for use with Xerox centralized production printers. 8700, 9700, late 1970's to early 1980's as I recall. I have two of these terminals on-hand, one still has the Xerox logo plate, the other does not. Both are operational though. The terminal was set up with custom commands apparently, so that pressing a particular key would send an entire command (This may have been handled on the controller side though). Working from memory here, as it's been a few years since we decommissioned our 9700. Our current printer, a Xerox 4090, has a similiar setup, with a newer LINK brand ADM3A terminal. The "SAMPLE COPY" button would send the full command to request a sample copy of the output. STOP halted the printer; CONTINUE continued printing the current job. STATUS would give information on jobs in the print queue (accounting ID, pages printed, total pages spooled to the print controller, etc). CLEAR would clear the entire input line. RUBOUT, I never used but I think it wipes out the currently selected word. To my knowledge, there was user operable no cursor positioning available of any kind. Any typos had to be remedied with either a change command (c/error/correction) or by retyping the entire line. The print controller was a PDP11/34 (or /34A), with various custom option cards and a bus expansion box installed. Removable-platter hard disk by CDC; StorageTek vacuum chamber 9-track tape drive. 800/1600/3200 bpi base, 6250 was an option. If anyone would like more info, I have complete service manuals on the 9700 printer (and a few parts) available. Also, DigiBarn has a page on the 9700 which is a bit dated. It also shows a different setup than what I ran. Ours had a full-height Xerox controller, as opposed to the PERQ T2 based controller. --Shaun -- "If you live to be a hundred, I want to live to be a hundred minus one day, so I never have to live without you." -- Winnie The Pooh http://www.lungs4amber.org From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Jul 6 15:36:16 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 17:36:16 -0300 Subject: A classic sighting this week References: <4A50E5FE.16159.4E965FB@cclist.sydex.com> <4A51F2DB.6080706@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <1fd3e01c9fe7a$148956e0$df3019bb@desktaba> >> Right now, the "This" network is showing the movie "Billion Dollar >> Brain" (1967). Stars Michael Caine, Karl Malden, Ed Begley and Oscar >> Homolka. Terrible plot and acting, but some really great shots of a >> Honeywell H200 system in operation. Is that the movie the boy gets eletroculted in the computer and becomes super-intelligent, making tests in seconds??? I'm looking for this film for ages... From slawmaster at gmail.com Mon Jul 6 15:49:26 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 13:49:26 -0700 Subject: A classic sighting this week In-Reply-To: <1fd3e01c9fe7a$148956e0$df3019bb@desktaba> References: <4A50E5FE.16159.4E965FB@cclist.sydex.com> <4A51F2DB.6080706@update.uu.se> <1fd3e01c9fe7a$148956e0$df3019bb@desktaba> Message-ID: <7d3530220907061349m2be5cb8du4d06d673d3fbbf36@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 1:36 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote: >>> Right now, the "This" network is showing the movie "Billion Dollar >>> Brain" (1967). ?Stars Michael Caine, Karl Malden, Ed Begley and Oscar >>> Homolka. ?Terrible plot and acting, but some really great shots of a >>> Honeywell H200 system in operation. > > ? Is that the movie the boy gets eletroculted in the computer and becomes > super-intelligent, making tests in seconds??? > > ? I'm looking for this film for ages... > > I think you're thinking of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Computer_Wore_Tennis_Shoes John -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From rickb at bensene.com Mon Jul 6 15:50:10 2009 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 13:50:10 -0700 Subject: A classic sighting this week In-Reply-To: <1fd3e01c9fe7a$148956e0$df3019bb@desktaba> References: <4A50E5FE.16159.4E965FB@cclist.sydex.com><4A51F2DB.6080706@update.uu.se> <1fd3e01c9fe7a$148956e0$df3019bb@desktaba> Message-ID: > Is that the movie the boy gets electrocuted in the computer and > becomes > super-intelligent, making tests in seconds??? > > I'm looking for this film for ages... No, the movie you are talking about is called "The Computer Wore Tennis Shoes". Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 6 15:52:38 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 20:52:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: A classic sighting this week Message-ID: <356729.32975.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> No, I believe you are talking about "The Computer Wore Tennis Shoes" starring a young Kurt Russell. That is a great film. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Mon, 6/7/09, Alexandre Souza wrote: From: Alexandre Souza Subject: Re: A classic sighting this week To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Date: Monday, 6 July, 2009, 9:36 PM ?? Is that the movie the boy gets eletroculted in the computer and becomes super-intelligent, making tests in seconds??? ???I'm looking for this film for ages... From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jul 6 15:55:45 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 14:55:45 -0600 Subject: LSI ADM3A with an unusual keyboard In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 06 Jul 2009 14:02:53 -0500. Message-ID: In article , Wulf daMan writes: > This is a terminal customized for use with Xerox centralized > production printers. 8700, 9700, late 1970's to early 1980's as I > recall. I have two of these terminals on-hand, one still has the > Xerox logo plate, the other does not. Both are operational though. > The terminal was set up with custom commands apparently, so that > pressing a particular key would send an entire command (This may have > been handled on the controller side though). [...] This is a question that can be answered really quick by hooking it up to a serial port and seeing what gets transmitted when you press that key. I'm guessing there's nothing special about the terminal other than the keycaps and the logo plate. If it really does do something different, then it would be good to capture the ROM images. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From melamy at earthlink.net Mon Jul 6 15:56:43 2009 From: melamy at earthlink.net (melamy at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 16:56:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: A classic sighting this week Message-ID: <4875534.1246913803803.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> the movie you are thinking about is "The Computer Wore Tennis Shoes" with Snake Plisbin aka Kurt Russel best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- >From: Alexandre Souza >Sent: Jul 6, 2009 4:36 PM >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" >Subject: Re: A classic sighting this week > >>> Right now, the "This" network is showing the movie "Billion Dollar >>> Brain" (1967). Stars Michael Caine, Karl Malden, Ed Begley and Oscar >>> Homolka. Terrible plot and acting, but some really great shots of a >>> Honeywell H200 system in operation. > > Is that the movie the boy gets eletroculted in the computer and becomes >super-intelligent, making tests in seconds??? > > I'm looking for this film for ages... > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 6 17:23:45 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 15:23:45 -0700 Subject: A classic sighting this week In-Reply-To: <4875534.1246913803803.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <4875534.1246913803803.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4A521701.3957.991143B@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Jul 2009 at 16:56, melamy at earthlink.net wrote: > the movie you are thinking about is "The Computer Wore Tennis Shoes" > with Snake Plisbin aka Kurt Russel Yeah, "The Billion Dollar Brain" is a Cold War spy thriller, part of the 'arry Palmer (Michael Caine) series, memorable members of which are "The Ipcress File" and "Funeral in Berlin". BDB is definitely *not* pro-US, BTW. It's one of those movies that you either like or hate. The laughable part of this is that a Honeywell H200 was used as the "brain"; supposedly a supercomputer, but in real life, little more than a souped-up IBM 1401. --Chuck From tpeters at mixcom.com Mon Jul 6 17:27:06 2009 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 17:27:06 -0500 Subject: A classic sighting this week In-Reply-To: <1fd3e01c9fe7a$148956e0$df3019bb@desktaba> References: <4A50E5FE.16159.4E965FB@cclist.sydex.com> <4A51F2DB.6080706@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20090706172453.0d6920e8@localhost> At 05:36 PM 7/6/2009 -0300, you wrote: >>>Right now, the "This" network is showing the movie "Billion Dollar >>>Brain" (1967). Stars Michael Caine, Karl Malden, Ed Begley and Oscar >>>Homolka. Terrible plot and acting, but some really great shots of a >>>Honeywell H200 system in operation. > > Is that the movie the boy gets eletroculted in the computer and > becomes super-intelligent, making tests in seconds??? > > I'm looking for this film for ages... Perhaps you are thinking of "The Computer Wore Tennis Shoes" starring a very young Kurt Russel ----- 840. Give your child mental blocks for Christmas. --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Jul 6 19:56:21 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 17:56:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: probe cases group buy redux Message-ID: The door closed on the group buy on June 30. I'm checking over things right now. Here's the list of those interested for a total of 40 cases. Name Qty Dave Griffith 3 Dave McGuire 3 Steve Maddison 6 Chris Sullivan 6 Chuck Guzis 3 Ethan Dicks 3 Neil Breeden 2 Clark Family 2 maurice smulders 3 Steve Maddison UK 5 Dennis Boone 2 Jack Lowry 2 In case you've forgotten, this is for the logic probe case found at http://www.kelvin.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=K&Product_Code=430068. US$3.45 each plus $5 shipping plus 3% for paypal to all addresses in the US. Shipping to Canada appears to be close enough. If you're in Europe, Steve Maddison has volunteered (you did, right?) to accept and remail stuff from the UK. There's at least one person on the list in Australia. If there's more than one, would someone step forward to be a remailer? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 6 20:50:07 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 18:50:07 -0700 Subject: probe cases group buy redux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A52475F.3637.A4E3336@cclist.sydex.com> David, I apologize for sounding dense, but I like my t's dotted and my i's crossed. Is the email address you've given in your message your Paypal account also? If not, what account should I use? --Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Jul 6 21:55:06 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 19:55:06 -0700 Subject: LSI ADM3A with an unusual keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Mon, 06 Jul 2009 14:02:53 -0500. , Message-ID: Given that the ADM-3a is a truly 'dumb' terminal - in the sense that it's all hardwired logic - I agree that it's most likely custom keycaps on the terminal and custom software on the target computer. Unlike later terminals, there wasn't a microprocessor under the hood, which in some ways makes the ADM-3a even more intriguing. But the only modification of which I'm aware - providing for lower-case characters - involved a change of character generation ROM and to some selection logic. (I did that on one of mine.) -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard [legalize at xmission.com] Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 1:55 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: LSI ADM3A with an unusual keyboard In article , Wulf daMan writes: > This is a terminal customized for use with Xerox centralized > production printers. 8700, 9700, late 1970's to early 1980's as I > recall. I have two of these terminals on-hand, one still has the > Xerox logo plate, the other does not. Both are operational though. > The terminal was set up with custom commands apparently, so that > pressing a particular key would send an entire command (This may have > been handled on the controller side though). [...] This is a question that can be answered really quick by hooking it up to a serial port and seeing what gets transmitted when you press that key. I'm guessing there's nothing special about the terminal other than the keycaps and the logo plate. If it really does do something different, then it would be good to capture the ROM images. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jul 6 22:03:58 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 21:03:58 -0600 Subject: LSI ADM3A with an unusual keyboard In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 06 Jul 2009 19:55:06 -0700. Message-ID: In article , Ian King writes: > Given that the ADM-3a is a truly 'dumb' terminal - in the sense that it's > all hardwired logic - Its SSI logic? I thought it had a microprocessor in there. Did the ADM5 have a microprocessor? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From brain at jbrain.com Mon Jul 6 23:04:26 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 23:04:26 -0500 Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: References: <4A4C3721.5030900@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4A52C94A.60908@jbrain.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > Something you should probably do is take the lid off and record the > number from the sticker on the boot ROM. Long ago, when I got Kaypro > disks directly from Don Maslin, he needed that number from me to know > exactly what disk to send me. My experience with CP/M and Kaypros is > rather superficial so I can't say what's different from model to model > or version to version, but I can report that knowing your exact > machine configuration seems to be important. > The sticker says 81-478. The mainboard is assembly #81-809, and has quite a few unstuffed components in the upper right corner According to this site: http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/Kaypro/Kaypro1.html It uses the Universal ROM and must run CP/M 2.2U1 It's unclear to me which of the images on Dave's site would work. I suppose I can try all of them (the system disks from the KII, the K3*83, the K4, and the K10), but I'm not sure if I'll know whether the issues is an system mismatch or a drive issue. Jim. From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Jul 6 23:14:35 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 21:14:35 -0700 Subject: LSI ADM3A with an unusual keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Mon, 06 Jul 2009 19:55:06 -0700. , Message-ID: ISTR the ADM5 was their first microprocessor-based product. The ADM-3a did have MSI serial components - as I recall, it was two separate chips for transmitter and receiver, but still single components for each rather than SSI (shift registers and clocks and such, like on an Omnibus M8650). But the bulk of it was SSI. -- isk ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard [legalize at xmission.com] Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 8:03 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: LSI ADM3A with an unusual keyboard In article , Ian King writes: > Given that the ADM-3a is a truly 'dumb' terminal - in the sense that it's > all hardwired logic - Its SSI logic? I thought it had a microprocessor in there. Did the ADM5 have a microprocessor? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Jul 7 00:00:26 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 22:00:26 -0700 Subject: LSI ADM3A with an unusual keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Mon, 06 Jul 2009 19:55:06 -0700. , , Message-ID: Oops, my bad: the ADM5 was hardwired as well. One comment (I found on Google) was, "at least you didn't have to install the upper/lower case kit." The reason I'm so certain the ADM-3a was not microprocessor based: once upon a time, my (then) girlfriend came home to tell me that she saw a dumpster in which some folks were dumping what looked like computer boards. As it turned out, they were throwing away various pieces/parts of ADM-3a's, including the circuit board that filled the entire base of the unit. The ICs on that board were SOCKETED! I pulled them all (bwah-hah-hah), and many are still in my collection of TTL parts. As it happened, ONE of those boards contained a lower-case-character ROM. Years later, when I acquired my PDP-11/34, part of the deal was to take ALL of the terminals he had with it, which included several ADM-3a's. I looked through my chip collection and rediscovered the lowercase ROM, which now graces one of my 3a's and makes it a lot easier to use with UNIX 6th Ed. (which is what I run on my /34). I really should dup it one of these days.... -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian King [IanK at vulcan.com] Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 9:14 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: LSI ADM3A with an unusual keyboard ISTR the ADM5 was their first microprocessor-based product. The ADM-3a did have MSI serial components - as I recall, it was two separate chips for transmitter and receiver, but still single components for each rather than SSI (shift registers and clocks and such, like on an Omnibus M8650). But the bulk of it was SSI. -- isk ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard [legalize at xmission.com] Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 8:03 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: LSI ADM3A with an unusual keyboard In article , Ian King writes: > Given that the ADM-3a is a truly 'dumb' terminal - in the sense that it's > all hardwired logic - Its SSI logic? I thought it had a microprocessor in there. Did the ADM5 have a microprocessor? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 7 00:31:35 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 22:31:35 -0700 Subject: LSI ADM3A with an unusual keyboard In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4A527B47.22471.B18E057@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Jul 2009 at 22:00, Ian King wrote: > The reason I'm so certain the ADM-3a was not microprocessor based: > once upon a time, my (then) girlfriend came home to tell me that she > saw a dumpster in which some folks were dumping what looked like > computer boards. As it turned out, they were throwing away various > pieces/parts of ADM-3a's, including the circuit board that filled the > entire base of the unit. The ICs on that board were SOCKETED! I > pulled them all (bwah-hah-hah), and many are still in my collection of > TTL parts. As it happened, ONE of those boards contained a > lower-case-character ROM. The ADM3A was deployed at an interesting time--microprocessors and their peripherals were still pretty expensive and it's not clear that much of a savings in real estate could have been realized. Consider, for example, one of the terminals used frequently with the MITS Altair and IMSAI 8080--the SWTP TV Typewriter. No microprocessor, no LSI, save for a UART. It worked fine even with those power-hungry 2102 SRAMs. A microprocessor version would have been more expensive to build and probably not any smaller. It didn't hurt that the ADM3A was an exceedingly dumb terminal. Smart, page-editing terminals benefitted greatly from microprocessors, even slow ones like the 8008. On the other hand, when the LSI support chips came along, Wyse made a small fortune offering cheap, fairly smart terminals using MPUs. (was it an 8085 that they used in the WY50?) --Chuck From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com Mon Jul 6 03:34:53 2009 From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 10:34:53 +0200 Subject: Goodbye Compuserve References: <4A50BC2F.9050100@arachelian.com><4A513482.70400@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <002c01c9fe14$a7b185c0$04000005@pc> hello everyone,all that reminds me my beginning in on line connections.Before the only connections I did were point to point with modem to exchange data with my pdp11 .Real online connections were with Compuserve,at that time ,I do not remember precisely but it was between 1985 and 1990 ,I did not have a peecee , 'only' tektronix 4052 ,and a pdp11/23,and some terminals,to connect here in France I had to use transpac,a bridge with x25 mode ,for that I first began with a 1200 bauds modem,a Tektro 4010 and a hard copy unit (4631?) to 'save' programs and data ,the silver paper was so expensive that I soon used a vt220 an a printer and normal paper ,still no computer...after I connected my pdp .It was at Compuserve that I found the first freeware programs for my pdp ,had lots of discussions ,met lots of kind peoples I still have all those machines,I think I still have listings obtained at that time from the 4631 tektro hcu,but they are becomming white ,I do not remember my id :-((((...thanks to all ,and thanks very much Compuserve Alain Nierveze in France ----- Message d'origine ----- De : "Ethan Dicks" ? : "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Envoy? : lundi 6 juillet 2009 04:28 Objet : Re: Goodbye Compuserve > On 7/5/09, Mark Davidson wrote: > > Does anyone have any idea what they are going to do with all those old machines? > > If I had a good answer, I'd have already rented a truck. ;-) > > I _think_ they will end up either as spares for the ones at WorldCom > (since there are still machines from before the split running a few > miles away) or end up somewhere else. At no time have I heard a > breath of a hint that they were tossing them out, damn the luck. > > -ethan > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jul 7 01:56:06 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 23:56:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: probe cases group buy redux In-Reply-To: <4A52475F.3637.A4E3336@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4A52475F.3637.A4E3336@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Jul 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > David, I apologize for sounding dense, but I like my t's dotted and > my i's crossed. Is the email address you've given in your message > your Paypal account also? If not, what account should I use? Yes. The address you see below is my paypal account. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jul 7 02:32:38 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 01:32:38 -0600 Subject: LSI ADM3A with an unusual keyboard In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 06 Jul 2009 22:00:26 -0700. Message-ID: In article , Ian King writes: > Oops, my bad: the ADM5 was hardwired as well. [...] After you mentioned that the ADM3A was discrete logic, I went to bitsavers and perused the maintenance manual. The theory of operation section makes it quite clear that its all discrete logic doing the row/column counting and character decoding. For some reason, I thought that the ADM3 was microprocessor based. I guess I never really looked that carefully inside! I have a number of terminal and graphics devices that are discrete logic and I find them interesting. I wonder how small an FPGA could be and still contain all the ADM3a discrete logic :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From steve at cosam.org Tue Jul 7 02:34:30 2009 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 09:34:30 +0200 Subject: probe cases group buy redux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <95838e090907070034r2ebf6559l3d925e94831863ea@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/7 David Griffith : > If you're in Europe, Steve Maddison has volunteered (you did, right?) > to accept and remail stuff from the UK. I did, although I'm actually in the Netherlands. Shipping is however flat rate to the rest of Europe from here. And unless I left my evil twin back in the UK, it would appear I'm listed twice. The European group order is six cases total. Cheers, -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From steve at cosam.org Tue Jul 7 02:52:14 2009 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 09:52:14 +0200 Subject: probe cases group buy redux (off list) Message-ID: <95838e090907070052y6c7f509el39d40816ff3c11f@mail.gmail.com> David Griffith wrote: > US$3.45 each plus $5 shipping plus 3% for paypal to all addresses in the US. > ?Shipping to Canada appears to be close enough. ?If you're in Europe, Steve > Maddison has volunteered (you did, right?) to accept and remail stuff from > the UK. Hi David, Let me know what shipping to Europe is going to cost and I'll square up with you. Here's the address: Delft University of Technology t.a.v. S. A. Maddison Landbergstraat 15 2628 CE Delft The Netherlands Thanks, -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jul 7 03:00:33 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 01:00:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: probe cases group buy redux In-Reply-To: <95838e090907070034r2ebf6559l3d925e94831863ea@mail.gmail.com> References: <95838e090907070034r2ebf6559l3d925e94831863ea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Jul 2009, Steve Maddison wrote: > 2009/7/7 David Griffith : >> If you're in Europe, Steve Maddison has volunteered (you did, right?) >> to accept and remail stuff from the UK. > I did, although I'm actually in the Netherlands. Shipping is however > flat rate to the rest of Europe from here. > > And unless I left my evil twin back in the UK, it would appear I'm > listed twice. The European group order is six cases total. Whoops! Thank you. I'm not sure how I concluded you were in the UK. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Jul 7 04:59:41 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 10:59:41 +0100 Subject: Green bar paper and 8" disk boxes, free Message-ID: <1246960781.20526.1.camel@kusanagi> Pick 'em up from my house in Glasgow Box of 15" greenbar, and four bright blue DEC 8" disk boxes designed to hold about 10 8" disks. Mail me offlist if you want them. It's probably possible to ship the disk boxes but the paper is heavy and uneconomic to ship. Gordon 2M0YEQ From dbetz at xlisper.com Tue Jul 7 06:25:16 2009 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 07:25:16 -0400 Subject: Raised flooring Message-ID: I just noticed this on Craigslist. I think I've seen requests for raised flooring here before so I thought someone might be interested. http://nh.craigslist.org/sys/1257296853.html From rescue at hawkmountain.net Tue Jul 7 07:42:35 2009 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (rescue at hawkmountain.net) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 08:42:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Multiflow documentation available Message-ID: <50112.67.93.24.222.1246970555.squirrel@www.hawkmountain.net> 3 ring Multiflow binders containing: TRACE/UNIX Operating System Multiflow System Administrators Guide, Reference Manual and Supplement TRACE/UNIX Operating System Programmers Supplement Parts 1 + 2 TRACE/UNIX Multiflow Systems Administrators Guide, Reference Manual, and Supplement Trace/UNIX Programmers Reference Manual, Section 1 Trace/UNIX Programmers Reference Manual Sections 2-7 Multiflow Computer Misc Documents Multiflow Fortran Users Guide and Reference Manual (Fortran Compiler 2.1) Assembler & C Notes (hand written title on spine, Multiflow docs inside) Intermediate Language Document (not in 3 ring binder) >From what I can tell Multiflow Trace/UNIX is based on 4.3 BSD. The manuals are for Trace/UNIX version 3.2. This stuff is located in Cambridge, MA, or could be made available in Sharon, MA. If you have any interest in these manuals, e-mail me ASAP, as they are in the old computer room/office space and I don't know how much longer I'll have access to the space (or how long before they clean out what was left behind). This would make a great addition to bitsavers (if not already there?). -- Curt From spedraja at ono.com Tue Jul 7 08:01:25 2009 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 15:01:25 +0200 Subject: Multiflow documentation available In-Reply-To: <50112.67.93.24.222.1246970555.squirrel@www.hawkmountain.net> References: <50112.67.93.24.222.1246970555.squirrel@www.hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: If no one s interested I would like. Regards Sergio 2009/7/7 > > 3 ring Multiflow binders containing: > > TRACE/UNIX Operating System Multiflow System Administrators Guide, > Reference Manual and Supplement > TRACE/UNIX Operating System Programmers Supplement Parts 1 + 2 > TRACE/UNIX Multiflow Systems Administrators Guide, Reference Manual, and > Supplement > Trace/UNIX Programmers Reference Manual, Section 1 > Trace/UNIX Programmers Reference Manual Sections 2-7 > Multiflow Computer Misc Documents > Multiflow Fortran Users Guide and Reference Manual (Fortran Compiler 2.1) > Assembler & C Notes (hand written title on spine, Multiflow docs inside) > Intermediate Language Document (not in 3 ring binder) > > >From what I can tell Multiflow Trace/UNIX is based on 4.3 BSD. The > manuals > are for Trace/UNIX version 3.2. > > This stuff is located in Cambridge, MA, or could be made available in > Sharon, MA. > > If you have any interest in these manuals, e-mail me ASAP, as they are > in the old computer room/office space and I don't know how much longer > I'll have access to the space (or how long before they clean out what was > left behind). > > This would make a great addition to bitsavers (if not already there?). > > -- Curt > > > > From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Jul 7 09:53:29 2009 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 09:53:29 -0500 Subject: PING: James Register In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: James Register (or anyone knowing whereabouts), please contact me or John Gold at your earliest convenience. Others, sorry for the inconvenience, but it does pertain to a classic computer rescue. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From doc at vaxen.net Tue Jul 7 10:18:37 2009 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 10:18:37 -0500 Subject: Sort of OT: DLT7000 tape library Message-ID: <4A53674D.4060509@vaxen.net> I have a Breece-Hill Q7 tape library that needs a new home. Local pickup only, as it's the size of a BA123 and likely not worth the cost of shipping. Wide SCSI, 2 DLT7000 drives, capacity 28 tapes, barcode reader. I have a dozen or so DLT-IV tapes for it, a couple of cleaning tapes, and a lot of tape labels. I ran it with Tivoli Storage Manager, but it should work with any of the majors. In good shape, working condition. I'd like to get $50 for library and tapes. It's in Austin Texas. Doc Shipley From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jul 7 00:31:38 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 22:31:38 -0700 Subject: LSI ADM3A with an unusual keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A52DDBA.7090003@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard wrote: > In article , > Ian King writes: > > >> Oops, my bad: the ADM5 was hardwired as well. [...] >> > > After you mentioned that the ADM3A was discrete logic, I went to > bitsavers and perused the maintenance manual. The theory of operation > section makes it quite clear that its all discrete logic doing the > row/column counting and character decoding. For some reason, I > thought that the ADM3 was microprocessor based. I guess I never > really looked that carefully inside! I have a number of terminal > and graphics devices that are discrete logic and I find them > interesting. > > I wonder how small an FPGA could be and still contain all the ADM3a > discrete logic :-) > See Spare Time Gizmos for a very small dumb terminal. This is the cheap video cookbook idea taken to the fullest. 2 1/2" x 4" PCB gives you every thing you need but a CASE and a 9 volt wall wart. You don't get a ADM3A but a VT220 instead. How ever if you want you can reprogram the CPU to emulate I guess almost any kind of basic terminal. Ben. http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/VT.htm From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Jul 7 11:48:03 2009 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 12:48:03 -0400 Subject: LSI ADM3A with an unusual keyboard Message-ID: <01C9FF02.1CB1C680@MSE_D03> Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 21:03:58 -0600 From: Richard >>Ian King writes: >> Given that the ADM-3a is a truly 'dumb' terminal - in the sense that it's >> all hardwired logic - >Its SSI logic? I thought it had a microprocessor in there. >Did the ADM5 have a microprocessor? ------- Speaking of LSI LSI, anybody want an ADM-11? mike From feldman.r at comcast.net Tue Jul 7 12:33:59 2009 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 17:33:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Kaypro System disks? Message-ID: <87756350.1057941246988039004.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> (Catching up on my email after the holidays) Programs like Media Master can read and write Kaypro disks on a PC, but in order for a disk to be readable, it must be formatted on the PC (same goes for a Zorba disk). The following is the explanation from the Media Master Read.Me file: Both the Kaypro 2x,4,10 (DSDD) and Zorba 40 trk (DSDD) formats have a peculiarity that prevents you from using a disk that is created on the "native" computer.? In both cases, the only way to transfer files is to first format a transfer disk in the Kaypro or Zorba format using MEDIA MASTER and your computer.? Then use the Kaypro or Zorba computer to transfer files from the "native" disks to the disk you created with MEDIA MASTER.? Then using MEDIA MASTER, you can transfer the files to any format you wish. Another way of viewing this problem is that disks created on the Kaypro 2x, 4, or 10 can only be used on the Kaypro 2x, 4, or 10, but a Kaypro 2x, 4, or 10 disk created on your computer with MEDIA MASTER can be used on both your computer and the Kaypro computer. BTW, I have copies (for MS-DOS) of Media Master and Convert (1984, Selfware, Inc., Charles W Woodford). Contact me off-list. Bob ? >Message: 7 >Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 23:20:37 -0700 >From: "Chuck Guzis" < cclist at sydex.com > >Subject: RE: Kaypro System disks? > >On 2 Jul 2009 at 22:19, David Griffith wrote: > >> Here's a point I was never quite clear on...? Are disks readable >> across different machines?? For instance, take a disk that was >> formatted and written on using a Kaypro 10.? Is that disk readable on >> a Kaypro IV or Kaypro 4?? How about reading a single-sided Kaypro II >> disk on one of the double-sider machines? > >Natively, it was highly ROM-dependent as others have noted.? However, >I seem to remember a version of one of the interchange programs >(Media Master?) for the Kaypro that could be used to read a wide >range of formats.? If you had a 96 tpi drive, the possibilities were >even greater. > >Fred might remember... > >--Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jul 7 12:44:24 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 11:44:24 -0600 Subject: Fwd: The Electroregeneration Society (Salt Lake City, UT) Message-ID: First meeting of this non-profit is tonight (July 7th) at 6pm. 555 South 400 West Salt Lake City -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 7 14:02:05 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 20:02:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: LSI ADM3A with an unusual keyboard In-Reply-To: from "Ian King" at Jul 6, 9 09:14:35 pm Message-ID: > > ISTR the ADM5 was their first microprocessor-based product. The ADM-3a did= > have MSI serial components - as I recall, it was two separate chips for tr= > ansmitter and receiver, but still single components for each rather than SS= I am suprised it didn't use one of those 40 pin dumb UARTs, like the 1602 / AY-3-1015 etc. The only separate Tx/Rx chips I've come across were the ones HP used in the 11284 (serial interface for the 9830) and 59403 (common carrier interface for HPIB) and supproted synchronous operation too. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 7 14:38:44 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 12:38:44 -0700 Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <87756350.1057941246988039004.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <87756350.1057941246988039004.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4A5341D4.17858.E2063E6@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Jul 2009 at 17:33, feldman.r at comcast.net wrote: > Both the Kaypro 2x,4,10 (DSDD) and Zorba 40 trk (DSDD) formats > have a peculiarity that prevents you from using a disk that is created > on the "native" computer.? In both cases, the only way to transfer > files is to first format a transfer disk in the Kaypro or Zorba format > using MEDIA MASTER and your computer.? Then use the Kaypro or Zorba > computer to transfer files from the "native" disks to the disk you > created with MEDIA MASTER.? Then using MEDIA MASTER, you can transfer > the files to any format you wish. Well, yes and no. The Kaypro formats, at least in its non-Advent ROM incarnations, 10 512-byte sectors per track, leaving out the IDAM on each track. The NEC 765 and its derivatives go blind for a period after the index (the original 765 and 8272 are blind for longer than the later versions of the chip) long enough to avoid seeing the IDAM. The problem with the Kaypro is that there is no IDAM on Kaypro- formatted diskettes, so the IAM of the first sector isn't seen and only 9 sectors instead of 10 are visible to the 765. There are several ways around this. One, as mentioned, is to format the Kaypro diskette on the PC and write files to it, but that assumes that you still have the Kaypro around to write the files. Another commonly used method is to tweak the spindle speed a bit slower so that the first sector IAM just slips past the "window". Another is to isolate/disconnect the INDEX/ signal from the floppy drive so that it isn't seen at all and the 765 always has its eyes open. Finally, one can replace the uPD765 with a uPD7265, which leaves out the IDAM nonsense and Kaypro disks will read just fine. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 7 14:56:29 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 12:56:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <4A5341D4.17858.E2063E6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <87756350.1057941246988039004.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4A5341D4.17858.E2063E6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20090707125259.H80902@shell.lmi.net> > On 7 Jul 2009 at 17:33, feldman.r at comcast.net wrote: > > Both the Kaypro 2x,4,10 (DSDD) and Zorba 40 trk (DSDD) formats > > have a peculiarity that prevents you from using a disk that is created > > on the "native" computer.? In both cases, the only way to transfer > > files is to first format a transfer disk in the Kaypro or Zorba format > > using MEDIA MASTER and your computer.? Then use the Kaypro or Zorba > > computer to transfer files from the "native" disks to the disk you > > created with MEDIA MASTER.? Then using MEDIA MASTER, you can transfer > > the files to any format you wish. I think that the problem that he is referring to is the invalid head number in the sector headers on the second side. It's ignored by WD179x, but requires going below INT13h on PC. On Tue, 7 Jul 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Well, yes and no. The Kaypro formats, at least in its non-Advent ROM > incarnations, 10 512-byte sectors per track, leaving out the IDAM on > each track. The NEC 765 and its derivatives go blind for a period > after the index (the original 765 and 8272 are blind for longer than > the later versions of the chip) long enough to avoid seeing the IDAM. > > The problem with the Kaypro is that there is no IDAM on Kaypro- > formatted diskettes, so the IAM of the first sector isn't seen and > only 9 sectors instead of 10 are visible to the 765. > > There are several ways around this. One, as mentioned, is to format > the Kaypro diskette on the PC and write files to it, but that assumes > that you still have the Kaypro around to write the files. Another > commonly used method is to tweak the spindle speed a bit slower so > that the first sector IAM just slips past the "window". Another is > to isolate/disconnect the INDEX/ signal from the floppy drive so that > it isn't seen at all and the 765 always has its eyes open. A small piece of opaque tape (write protect tab) over the index hole will get around it, but then most errors are mis-reported as 80h ("Not ready") > Finally, one can replace the uPD765 with a uPD7265, which leaves out > the IDAM nonsense and Kaypro disks will read just fine. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 7 15:24:04 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 13:24:04 -0700 Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <20090707125259.H80902@shell.lmi.net> References: <87756350.1057941246988039004.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <4A5341D4.17858.E2063E6@cclist.sydex.com>, <20090707125259.H80902@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4A534C74.19990.E49E7C4@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Jul 2009 at 12:56, Fred Cisin wrote: > I think that the problem that he is referring to is the invalid head > number in the sector headers on the second side. It's ignored by > WD179x, but requires going below INT13h on PC. I've got a copy of Media Master somewhere, but I don't think it used INT 13h services. OTOH, the 10x512 format is a problem no matter what you use on the PC. --Chuck From mross666 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 7 15:42:18 2009 From: mross666 at hotmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 20:42:18 +0000 Subject: RP02, RP03, RP04 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks to a recent rescue from Canada, I now have the above DEC disk drives. They're not in bad shape - need a good cleaning - and will probably get them running in due course; I have RP15 and RP11 controllers to hook them up to. For this I will however need disk packs! Now Farris will *build* you any disk pack you desire - at $850 each, and my budget doesn't reach quite that far. So anyone with packs for the above, please get in touch! http://www.mfarris.com/pack/dec2.html gives some information on the packs in question. The RP02 is a Memorex 660, IBM 2314 (drive) / 2316 (pack) - compatible, the RP03 uses the same pack (????), the RP04 is IBM 3330 compatible. Hmmm... dumb question: The RP06 also used IBM 3330-compatible media, IIRC; I don't suppose I can use the same packs on the the RP04, can I? That would be too easy... Oh, and I'm pretty sure I'll also need to find or make cables to hook the drives up to the controllers..! Thanks Mike http://www.corestore.org _________________________________________________________________ Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that?s right for you. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290 From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jul 7 22:09:00 2009 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 22:09:00 -0500 Subject: server maint Message-ID: <031401c9ff79$70e632f0$c600a8c0@JWEST> The classiccmp server will be down tomorrow sometime later morning or early afternoon (some time between 10:30am and 2pm) for minor hardware maintenance. I would not expect it to be down for more than 20 minutes. Thanks for your patience and understanding! Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jul 7 22:15:26 2009 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 22:15:26 -0500 Subject: server maint References: <031401c9ff79$70e632f0$c600a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <033301c9ff7a$5715a8a0$c600a8c0@JWEST> Duh.... I neglected to include CDT, which is GMT-6 :) Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 10:09 PM Subject: server maint > The classiccmp server will be down tomorrow sometime later morning or > early afternoon (some time between 10:30am and 2pm) for minor hardware > maintenance. I would not expect it to be down for more than 20 minutes. > > Thanks for your patience and understanding! > > Jay West > > From bbodnar1 at lemko.com Tue Jul 7 16:58:27 2009 From: bbodnar1 at lemko.com (Bohdan Bodnar) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 16:58:27 -0500 Subject: Nuclear Data ND-812 info... Message-ID: I stumbled across this thread from a year ago. I owned a BR2412 and designed and built a serial interface for it around 1981 or so. There were plans for this machine, but grad school interfered and when my home was flooded the computer hit the garbage. The BR2412 used a gel-cel battery to back up DRAM in the event a power failure occurs. Simply turning the computer off didn't drop power to the memory. You are correct this was a Bunker-Ramo version of the ND812; the BR2412 was used for factory automation. The ND812's design was highly motivated by the PDP-8 family - 133 ohms unidirectional busses, memory banks, no stack (used a "jump and save" instruction with some additional hardware to determine whether an indirect jump referenced a subroutine return address or something like that). The clock was 2 MHz 8-phase derived from a 16 MHz crystal-controlled clock. The entire motherboard was wire-wrapped; although the motherboard looked kludgy, the cold-weld contacts were extremely reliable and the rat's-nest of wiring reduced electromagnetic effects. The vast majority of the circuitry was based on Fairchild's 9000 and 9300 family of TTL SSI and MSI parts. Nuclear Data tried to compete with NCR with this machine and failed miserably. Although ND could build excellent hardware, they apparently never got the software side up to par. Thanks for the memories! Cordially, Bo Bohdan Bodnar, PhD Lemko Corporation 1700 East Golf Road, 7th Floor Schaumburg, IL 60173 +1 847-240-1990 x238 www.lemko.com From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Jul 8 04:27:15 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 11:27:15 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <4A5341D4.17858.E2063E6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <87756350.1057941246988039004.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4A5341D4.17858.E2063E6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Jul 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Well, yes and no. The Kaypro formats, at least in its non-Advent ROM > incarnations, 10 512-byte sectors per track, leaving out the IDAM on > each track. The NEC 765 and its derivatives go blind for a period > after the index (the original 765 and 8272 are blind for longer than > the later versions of the chip) long enough to avoid seeing the IDAM. I think this is wrong. First, noone needs the Index Address Mark, second I can read my Kaypro II and Kaypro 4 disks without problems on an old 1986 HP Vectra with ?PD765 FDC. At least ImageDisk doesn't seem to have any problem with these disks. The Kaypro disks are 10 sectors/512 bytes per sector. The Kaypro uses an interleave of 1:4 with sectors numbered 0,8,3,6,1,9,4,7,2,5; the Kaypro 4 uses DS disks and continues with 10,18,13,16,11,19,14,17,12,15 on the other side. > The problem with the Kaypro is that there is no IDAM on Kaypro- > formatted diskettes, so the IAM of the first sector isn't seen and > only 9 sectors instead of 10 are visible to the 765. The 765 does not need the IDAM. And the original IBM floppy format (3742 and System/34) doesn't even mention an IDAM. Personally I have not seen a system that actually needs an IDAM. Christian From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Wed Jul 8 10:26:04 2009 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 08:26:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: But for the vintage CPU guys: Intel 8008 clock Message-ID: <491246.59319.qm@web112217.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://hackaday.com/2009/07/07/intel-8008-clock/ from the site "Every year [Len Bales] designs and builds a new clock. His 2006 clock runs on the classic Intel 8008 microprocessor. The design is definitely not for the faint of heart, but he includes all code, diagrams and a good description on his site. The project is an interesting look into the not-so-distant past of computing. While the function of the project is a clock, it is actually a fully programmable 8008 computer running at 500khz with 16k of memory space and 4io ports. [Len] also links a lot of useful 8008 resources for anyone wanting to tackle a project of their own." From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 10:46:39 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 11:46:39 -0400 Subject: OT: But for the vintage CPU guys: Intel 8008 clock In-Reply-To: <491246.59319.qm@web112217.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <491246.59319.qm@web112217.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 7/8/09, Christian Liendo wrote: > > http://hackaday.com/2009/07/07/intel-8008-clock/ > > from the site "Every year [Len Bales] designs and builds a new clock. His 2006 clock runs on the classic Intel 8008 microprocessor. The design is definitely not for the faint of heart... Wow, that's a lot of breadboarding. -ethan From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Jul 8 11:15:07 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 17:15:07 +0100 Subject: OT: But for the vintage CPU guys: Intel 8008 clock In-Reply-To: References: <491246.59319.qm@web112217.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A54C60B.4090200@philpem.me.uk> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> from the site "Every year [Len Bales] designs and builds a new clock. His >> 2006 clock runs on the classic Intel 8008 microprocessor. The design is >> definitely not for the faint of heart... > > Wow, that's a lot of breadboarding. I did roughly as much when I built up my 6502 board. If memory serves, I had a GAL16V8AQ PLD (address decoder), 28C64 EEPROM, and a RAM chip on one chunk of breadboard, a W65C02A (WDC CMOS 6502) on another, and a TI 16C550 UART on the third. I don't think I got the breadboarded version stable at much more than 2MHz, but the Eurocard version runs quite nicely at 10MHz, with a full complement of I/O cards (CPU/RAM/ROM, UART, SP0256A-AL2 speech synthesizer). I've never plucked up the courage to put a scope on the backplane, though. Phi-0 and Phi-2 are probably rather messy, and I suspect SEL0 thru SEL3 aren't in much better shape... Schematics (hand drawn with a Rapidograph, no less!) are at http://www.philpem.me.uk/elec/6502/ if anyone wants to have a look. Ultimately, I got to the point where I could make it run EhBASIC and speak, then more or less ran out of things to do with it. At some point, I really should tie a MOS 6581 "SID" sound chip to the bus and see what happens... Or maybe a disk controller... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 8 11:26:53 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 09:26:53 -0700 Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: References: <87756350.1057941246988039004.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <4A5341D4.17858.E2063E6@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4A54665D.11791.12971B8B@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Jul 2009 at 11:27, Christian Corti wrote: > The 765 does not need the IDAM. And the original IBM floppy format > (3742 and System/34) doesn't even mention an IDAM. Personally I have > not seen a system that actually needs an IDAM. Your 1988 PC is too late.. I did not say that the 765 needs the IDAM, but that it was "blind" during the IDAM period. The original 16-64K 5150 was equipped with an Intel 8272 FDC, which is essentially Intel's rebranding of the NEC uPD765. I still have the FDC from my 5150 and there it is--marked "P8272". Let's go to the datasheet for the 8272--I refer you to the 1984 Intel "Microprocessor and Peripheral Handbook", page 6-226. Look at the section labeled "8272A Enhancements": "On the 8272A, after detecting the index Pulse, the VCO Sync output stays low for a shorter period of time. See figure 4A." On the 8272A, the time given for the length of the VCO sync is 527 uS- -I seem to recall (but I can check) that it was over 1 mS on the 8272. The long VCO sync period was a headache for reading 10 sector formats on the original 5150. Note that it's not a problem for disks formatted on the PC--the 8272/uPD765 always writes an IDAM--there's no way to suppress it. But that's not true of the WD17xx/27xx floppy controllers. One can just about put whatever one wants down as a track format. Indeed, in WD179x datasheet (page 18) it is stated that "In addition, the Index Address Mark is not required for operation by the WD179x." Not all versions of the Kaypro format fail on the original 8272/uPD765, but enough do to warrant Media Master's caution. 10x512 sector Cromemco diskettes are perhaps the worst in this regard; indeed many can't be read without "tweaking" even on controllers equipped with the 8272A/765AC parts. As far as the head ID being the cause for the statement, I don't think that was the issue. There are other formats that involve non- standard head ID fields (e.g. Xerox 16-8 and 820) that woiuld have tripped Media Master up but IIRC didn't. Since one had to lay out the whole track to be formatted on the WD179x chips, it was a shortcut to use the same layout for both sides of a diskette and so was quite common. --Chuck From doc at vaxen.net Wed Jul 8 12:56:10 2009 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 12:56:10 -0500 Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <4A54665D.11791.12971B8B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <87756350.1057941246988039004.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <4A5341D4.17858.E2063E6@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A54665D.11791.12971B8B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A54DDBA.6080401@vaxen.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > 10x512 sector Cromemco diskettes are perhaps the worst in this > regard; indeed many can't be read without "tweaking" even on > controllers equipped with the 8272A/765AC parts. This is actually a side-note to the topic, since I have no idea what the controller chip is, but... I have an old Compaq Presario (75MHz Pentium) whose on-board FDC at least reads Cromemco diskettes without problems and writes readable, bootable diskettes for a Kaypro 2 with factory ROMs. I can look up the model # tonight if anyone wants to know. Doc From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 8 13:33:55 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 11:33:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <4A54665D.11791.12971B8B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <87756350.1057941246988039004.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <4A5341D4.17858.E2063E6@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A54665D.11791.12971B8B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20090708112135.L28532@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 8 Jul 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > 10x512 sector Cromemco diskettes are perhaps the worst in this > regard; indeed many can't be read without "tweaking" even on > controllers equipped with the 8272A/765AC parts. I found LOTS of variation in Cromemco diskettes from different machines. Since I didn't have the machines, I wasn't able to do much checking. But, some of the Cromemco diskettes were the worst that I've seen. > As far as the head ID being the cause for the statement, I don't > think that was the issue. There are other formats that involve non- > standard head ID fields (e.g. Xerox 16-8 and 820) that woiuld have > tripped Media Master up but IIRC didn't. > Since one had to lay out the whole track to be formatted on the > WD179x chips, it was a shortcut to use the same layout for both sides > of a diskette and so was quite common. The fact that MM mentioned DSDD Kaypro and DSDD Zorba, but did NOT mention SSDD Kaypro, nor even Cromemco, prompts me to disagree. BUT, . . . We are opining over a fact, speculating about somebody else's actions. Why isn't the author HERE? Anybody in touch? IIRC, his name was something like Mark? Graybill?? BTW, I was lucky. My first 5150 (~November 1981 - ~January 1982) read single sided Kaypro with very little difficulty. My B: drive was an old beat up Tandon, running at 300.5 RPM. It was the first format that I succeeded at on the PC. (First alien format on TRS80 was Osborne SSSD) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 8 13:56:59 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 11:56:59 -0700 Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <20090708112135.L28532@shell.lmi.net> References: <87756350.1057941246988039004.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <4A54665D.11791.12971B8B@cclist.sydex.com>, <20090708112135.L28532@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4A54898B.14181.13208239@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Jul 2009 at 11:33, Fred Cisin wrote: > The fact that MM mentioned DSDD Kaypro and DSDD Zorba, but did NOT > mention SSDD Kaypro, nor even Cromemco, prompts me to disagree. The Zorbas that I've seen (both 48 and 96 tpi DSDD) have 0 as the head ID for both sides. http://www.rednil.de/pool/ag/ag6303.htm indicates that MM was available in versions for Osborne and Kaypro as well as for PC. > We are opining over a fact, speculating about somebody else's actions. > Why isn't the author HERE? Anybody in touch? IIRC, his name was > something like Mark? Graybill?? Good point. It seems to yet be available through Echoscan: http://www.echoscaninc.com/product.cgi?code=MTkwLUQwMS0zNg== --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 8 14:02:52 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 12:02:52 -0700 Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <4A54DDBA.6080401@vaxen.net> References: <87756350.1057941246988039004.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <4A54665D.11791.12971B8B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A54DDBA.6080401@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4A548AEC.25184.1325E502@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Jul 2009 at 12:56, Doc Shipley wrote: > I have an old Compaq Presario (75MHz Pentium) whose on-board FDC at > least reads Cromemco diskettes without problems and writes readable, > bootable diskettes for a Kaypro 2 with factory ROMs. I can look up the > model # tonight if anyone wants to know. I count something like 7 common Cromemco formats--and, as Fred notes, there was tremendous variability among them. On a P75 system, the FDC has been buried in the entrails of of "Super I/O" chip or even buried in a corner of a "Southbridge chip", such as an Intel 82371. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 8 14:49:13 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 12:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <4A54898B.14181.13208239@cclist.sydex.com> References: <87756350.1057941246988039004.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <4A54665D.11791.12971B8B@cclist.sydex.com>, <20090708112135.L28532@shell.lmi.net> <4A54898B.14181.13208239@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20090708123809.T28532@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 8 Jul 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The Zorbas that I've seen (both 48 and 96 tpi DSDD) have 0 as the > head ID for both sides. To further add to the confusion, . . . Several authors of such programs would use the competing products to generate sample disks to analyze. I had a couple of disks from a "Goupil". But the guy's handwriting was such that I thought that he had written "Groupil". It was most of a year before I corrected the spelling. Hmmm. A couple of programs support "Groupil"; where did they get the disk from? The guy that sent them to me SAID that he hadn't sent any to anybody else. There was also somebody who made an I.N.W. disk based on my L.N.W. In addition, there are a very small number of formats that I put in specifically for the developers of the machines, some of which never made it to commercial market! Not a DELIBERATE Mountweazel, but, . . . Since WD didn't CARE about the head number field, all of the disks formatted by XenoCopy had the correct content in the field, "poached" formats might not always have all of the correct weirdities. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From david_comley at yahoo.com Wed Jul 8 14:50:18 2009 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 12:50:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VAX-11/750 EMC Memory Board LEDs Message-ID: <194339.37481.qm@web30602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Can anyone tell me what the yellow LED signifies on the EMC 1MB memory boards that can be used in the 11/750? The EMC part number of the boards is 240-011-900. The green LED appears to be for power but I'm curious about the exact meaning of the yellow LEDs since they start out bright, on powerup, and then dim quite dramatically after a few seconds, presumably after or during initialization of the boards. Thanks, -Dave From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Jul 8 14:59:30 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 12:59:30 -0700 Subject: VAX-11/750 EMC Memory Board LEDs In-Reply-To: <194339.37481.qm@web30602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <194339.37481.qm@web30602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Comley > Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 12:50 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: VAX-11/750 EMC Memory Board LEDs > > > Can anyone tell me what the yellow LED signifies on the EMC 1MB memory > boards that can be used in the 11/750? The EMC part number of the > boards is 240-011-900. > > The green LED appears to be for power but I'm curious about the exact > meaning of the yellow LEDs since they start out bright, on powerup, and > then dim quite dramatically after a few seconds, presumably after or > during initialization of the boards. > > Thanks, > -Dave We have some of those in our 11/785s but I was never able to find any documentation. I think your interpretation is likely correct. When I was having problems getting one machine to boot, those LEDs stayed on. -- Ian From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 8 15:05:50 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 13:05:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <4A54DDBA.6080401@vaxen.net> References: <87756350.1057941246988039004.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <4A5341D4.17858.E2063E6@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A54665D.11791.12971B8B@cclist.sydex.com> <4A54DDBA.6080401@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <20090708130039.V28532@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 8 Jul 2009, Doc Shipley wrote: > I have an old Compaq Presario (75MHz Pentium) whose on-board FDC at > least reads Cromemco diskettes without problems and writes readable, > bootable diskettes for a Kaypro 2 with factory ROMs. I can look up the > model # tonight if anyone wants to know. Those "NEW" ones (it's all relative) have a lot fewer problems. The "flash blindness" after index is much shorter. Also, some of them have single density support enabled. The original 765 based IBM disk controller has hard wired for Double Density. Some of the later ones, such as the 37C65 can be switched in software. Unfortunately, some new machines have very demented BIOS, and in some cases won't even support a second floppy. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Jul 8 15:11:01 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 16:11:01 -0400 Subject: VAX-11/750 EMC Memory Board LEDs In-Reply-To: <194339.37481.qm@web30602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <194339.37481.qm@web30602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200907081611.01540.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 08 July 2009, David Comley wrote: > Can anyone tell me what the yellow LED signifies on the EMC 1MB > memory boards that can be used in the 11/750? The EMC part number of > the boards is 240-011-900. > > The green LED appears to be for power but I'm curious about the exact > meaning of the yellow LEDs since they start out bright, on powerup, > and then dim quite dramatically after a few seconds, presumably after > or during initialization of the boards. I believe that it signifies an ECC error, which would make sense before the boards are initialized. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Jul 8 15:14:16 2009 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 13:14:16 -0700 Subject: IBM 5150 PC Message-ID: I just picked up my first 5150. It's a later 1983 model, in pretty stellar condition, with a single top/bottom half-height 5 1/4" occupying the left full-height bay. I'd love to add a Winchester disk, but I understand that the early PCs did not have a power supply capable of driving a Winchester. How can I tell which power supply I have? My Google-fu has failed me on this query. Unfortunately it's not sitting in front of me at the moment, so I can't read any part numbers off of it; I'll have a look later tonight, but I recall it being a 65W power supply. -Seth From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 15:17:39 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 16:17:39 -0400 Subject: VAX-11/750 EMC Memory Board LEDs In-Reply-To: References: <194339.37481.qm@web30602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 7/8/09, Ian King wrote: > > Can anyone tell me what the yellow LED signifies on the EMC 1MB memory > > boards that can be used in the 11/750? The EMC part number of the > > boards is 240-011-900. > > > > The green LED appears to be for power but I'm curious about the exact > > meaning of the yellow LEDs since they start out bright, on powerup, and > > then dim quite dramatically after a few seconds, presumably after or > > during initialization of the boards. > > We have some of those in our 11/785s but I was never able to find any documentation. I think your interpretation is likely correct. When I was having problems getting one machine to boot, those LEDs stayed on. -- Ian One possibility is an ECC fault. ISTR that since the boards fire up with zero or random contents, most/all of the locations don't have the right check bits. The board sets the checkbits all at once at power-on, possibly with some sort of startup/refresh counter, so it might take a noticeable time to strobe through the array. Another possibility is that they are a simple access light - I think I've seen those on some 3rd party board - again, at power-on, things aren't stable yet, so you get solid lights until the memory board finishes its own startup. Do the yellow lights seem to vary in brightness under different loading conditions during normal operation or are they essentially dark? Are your RAM chips socketed by chance (probably not - the last socketed memory I remember seeing was Qbus memory for PDP-11s and the uVAX-I). If so, you could pull one chip from one board, forcing an ECC error and watch the behavior. If you have a red LED, too, that might be a hard fault, so the yellow could be soft fault or access. It's been a long time since I've played with 3rd party memory on a VAX, so forgive me if I'm tangling my own memories here. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 8 15:18:46 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 16:18:46 -0400 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6165E983-3AD6-4DE2-99C0-D4632F4FD6BE@neurotica.com> On Jul 8, 2009, at 4:14 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > I just picked up my first 5150. It's a later 1983 model, in pretty > stellar condition, with a single top/bottom half-height 5 1/4" > occupying the left full-height bay. > > I'd love to add a Winchester disk, but I understand that the early PCs > did not have a power supply capable of driving a Winchester. How can > I tell which power supply I have? My Google-fu has failed me on this > query. Unfortunately it's not sitting in front of me at the moment, so > I can't read any part numbers off of it; I'll have a look later > tonight, but I recall it being a 65W power supply. I'm pretty sure the 65W PS was the original one that was too small to support a hard drive. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 8 15:21:13 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 13:21:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090708131900.O28532@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 8 Jul 2009, Seth Morabito wrote: > I'd love to add a Winchester disk, but I understand that the early PCs > did not have a power supply capable of driving a Winchester. How can > I tell which power supply I have? My Google-fu has failed me on this > query. Unfortunately it's not sitting in front of me at the moment, so > I can't read any part numbers off of it; I'll have a look later > tonight, but I recall it being a 65W power supply. XT doubled the power supply output. And full height 5.25" hard drives needed it. A small relatively modern drive might be able to squeak by with the 65 W supply. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 8 15:31:35 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 13:31:35 -0700 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: <6165E983-3AD6-4DE2-99C0-D4632F4FD6BE@neurotica.com> References: , <6165E983-3AD6-4DE2-99C0-D4632F4FD6BE@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A549FB7.20404.13771EC5@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Jul 2009 at 16:18, Dave McGuire wrote: > > I'd love to add a Winchester disk, but I understand that the early > > PCs did not have a power supply capable of driving a Winchester. > > How can I tell which power supply I have? My Google-fu has failed me > > on this query. Unfortunately it's not sitting in front of me at the > > moment, so I can't read any part numbers off of it; I'll have a look > > later tonight, but I recall it being a 65W power supply. Over on the Vintage Computer Forum, there's an 8-bit IDE adapter project going. Stick an IDE-CF adapter on and you've got a very low power "hard disk" that would certainly run with the original PSU. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 15:33:52 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 16:33:52 -0400 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: <6165E983-3AD6-4DE2-99C0-D4632F4FD6BE@neurotica.com> References: <6165E983-3AD6-4DE2-99C0-D4632F4FD6BE@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 7/8/09, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jul 8, 2009, at 4:14 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > > > I just picked up my first 5150. Congrats. > > I'd love to add a Winchester disk, but I understand that the early PCs > > did not have a power supply capable of driving a Winchester. Specifically, they didn't have the capability of powering contemporary hard drives. > I'm pretty sure the 65W PS was the original one that was too small to > support a hard drive. Yep. That's the one. My memory is that the power budget is strained with a full boat of cards and a pair of floppies. You could power your hard drive from an external power supply, but it might be tidier to install a PSU from an XT and set your 65W PSU on the shelf to reinstall if you ever want to run the original configuration. Alternately, you might be able to get away with a minimal amount of cards and a 3.5" MFM drive, but I would never try it without measuring the draw of your present configuration and adding in the draw of the drive _and_ adding some extra capacity for startup surges, etc. If it were my box, I'd just drop an XT PSU in there and shelve the original PSU for later. -ethan From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Jul 8 15:39:20 2009 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 13:39:20 -0700 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: <4A549FB7.20404.13771EC5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <6165E983-3AD6-4DE2-99C0-D4632F4FD6BE@neurotica.com> <4A549FB7.20404.13771EC5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 1:31 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Over on the Vintage Computer Forum, there's an 8-bit IDE adapter > project going. ?Stick an IDE-CF adapter on and you've got a very low > power "hard disk" that would certainly run with the original PSU. I was just thinking yesterday about whipping up a proto board to do just that! But if someone else can save me the work, I'm delighted. Thanks for pointing this out, I'll have a look! -Seth From david_comley at yahoo.com Wed Jul 8 15:40:53 2009 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 13:40:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VAX-11/750 EMC Memory Board LEDs Message-ID: <128418.91392.qm@web30602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 7/8/09, Ethan Dicks wrote: > One possibility is an ECC fault.? ISTR that since the > boards fire up > with zero or random contents, most/all of the locations > don't have the > right check bits.? The board sets the checkbits all at > once at > power-on, possibly with some sort of startup/refresh > counter, so it > might take a noticeable time to strobe through the array. Yes, that seems reasonable. The puzzling thing is that on all the boards, the light stays on, just less brightly, after a few seconds. Is it the memory board or the memory controller that sets the checkbits ? > > Do the yellow lights seem to vary in brightness under > different > loading conditions during normal operation or are they > essentially Can't tell yet; I have some other issues to resolve with the machine before I can get to normal operation. > dark?? Are your RAM chips socketed by chance No, they're soldered in. Each one has a switch that I believe allows you to take the board offline. I can take any board offline (which throws a red memory configuration error lamp on the memory controller) except for the board in the left-most slot, no matter how few or many of these things I put in there. -Dave From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 8 15:44:26 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 13:44:26 -0700 Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <20090708123809.T28532@shell.lmi.net> References: <87756350.1057941246988039004.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <4A54898B.14181.13208239@cclist.sydex.com>, <20090708123809.T28532@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4A54A2BA.9641.1382E348@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Jul 2009 at 12:49, Fred Cisin wrote: > Several authors of such programs would use the competing products to > generate sample disks to analyze. I had a couple of disks from a > "Goupil". But the guy's handwriting was such that I thought that he > had written "Groupil". It was most of a year before I corrected the > spelling. Hmmm. A couple of programs support "Groupil"; where did > they get the disk from? The guy that sent them to me SAID that he > hadn't sent any to anybody else. There was also somebody who made an > I.N.W. disk based on my L.N.W. In addition, there are a very small > number of formats that I put in specifically for the developers of the > machines, some of which never made it to commercial market! Not a > DELIBERATE Mountweazel, but, . . I hear you. That's why, for example, 22Disk has *two* 400K formats for the Kaypro 2X. One with head IDs of 0/0 and the other with 0/1. Both legitimate Kaypro system disks as far as I can tell. There's little rhyme or reason here. The Future FX-20 uses head ID 0 for the first side and 4 for the second side. The Sharp MZ80B has head IDs of 0 and 1, but starts the data on the "top" side of the floppy, rather than the bottom side. That's not by any means the extent of the whackiness (some would say originality) in diskette formats that has come through here. We offered a *special* 22Disk that employs not the static table of the shareware version, but one that uses a table of procedure calls to perform the necessary mapping for those really odd formats (e.g. different head IDs on the same side with sector numbers that aren't the same from track to track). You wondered if any of those programmers had a life outside of the workplace... --Chuck From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Jul 8 15:46:42 2009 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 13:46:42 -0700 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: References: <6165E983-3AD6-4DE2-99C0-D4632F4FD6BE@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 1:33 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > If it were my box, I'd just drop an XT PSU in there and shelve the > original PSU for later. I'll keep my eye out for an XT PSU. It's currently powering four slots: Hayes modem, Hercules graphics, IBM floppy controller, and 8-bit ethernet. I can easily lose the modem and the ethernet (unless I want to relive my college days of DOS 3.3 packet drivers - which, come to think of it, may not even enough room with only 64K of RAM, so nevermind) -Seth From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jul 8 05:10:24 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 03:10:24 -0700 Subject: OT: But for the vintage CPU guys: Intel 8008 clock In-Reply-To: <4A54C60B.4090200@philpem.me.uk> References: <491246.59319.qm@web112217.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4A54C60B.4090200@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4A547090.7020900@jetnet.ab.ca> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> from the site "Every year [Len Bales] designs and builds a new >>> clock. His >>> 2006 clock runs on the classic Intel 8008 microprocessor. The design is >>> definitely not for the faint of heart... >> >> Wow, that's a lot of breadboarding. > > I did roughly as much when I built up my 6502 board. If memory serves, > I had a GAL16V8AQ PLD (address decoder), 28C64 EEPROM, and a RAM chip > on one chunk of breadboard, a W65C02A (WDC CMOS 6502) on another, and > a TI 16C550 UART on the third. > > I don't think I got the breadboarded version stable at much more than > 2MHz, but the Eurocard version runs quite nicely at 10MHz, with a full > complement of I/O cards (CPU/RAM/ROM, UART, SP0256A-AL2 speech > synthesizer). > > I've never plucked up the courage to put a scope on the backplane, > though. Phi-0 and Phi-2 are probably rather messy, and I suspect SEL0 > thru SEL3 aren't in much better shape... > > Schematics (hand drawn with a Rapidograph, no less!) are at > http://www.philpem.me.uk/elec/6502/ if anyone wants to have a look. > > Ultimately, I got to the point where I could make it run EhBASIC and > speak, then more or less ran out of things to do with it. At some > point, I really should tie a MOS 6581 "SID" sound chip to the bus and > see what happens... Or maybe a disk controller... > Well build it while you can get chips ... I was going to do CPLD computer design, until I got a virus on my computer and had to reinstall windows a few days ago. So I am back to TTL or rather LS TTL since I can't get real TTL from my favorite supplier - Unicorn Electronics. I may have to throw in a few 74F283's or 7483's in to meet my speed requirements on the increment/decrement data path. Here all I need is a brain (optional) a pen and a pad of quad paper and of course DATA sheets. Ben. From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 8 16:14:20 2009 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 22:14:20 +0100 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: References: <6165E983-3AD6-4DE2-99C0-D4632F4FD6BE@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A550C2C.9040007@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Seth Morabito wrote: > On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 1:33 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > It's currently powering four slots: Hayes modem, Hercules graphics, > IBM floppy controller, and 8-bit ethernet. I can easily lose the modem > and the ethernet (unless I want to relive my college days of DOS 3.3 > packet drivers - which, come to think of it, may not even enough room > with only 64K of RAM, so nevermind) Not sure of this but will 64K be enough RAM to work with a hard drive ? I believe Dos 2.x was the first that supported hard drives, dunno what it's minimum RAM requirement is tho. As an aside I once worked out (by playing about with the total ram BIOS variable, and soft rebooting) that Dos 1.0 would boot to a prompt in 12K of RAM, but you could not load anything else. In 16K you could load things like the editor, but IIRC 16K was the minimum config for the original 5150. Cheers, Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Jul 8 16:38:26 2009 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 14:38:26 -0700 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: <4A550C2C.9040007@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <6165E983-3AD6-4DE2-99C0-D4632F4FD6BE@neurotica.com> <4A550C2C.9040007@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 2:14 PM, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > Seth Morabito wrote: >> >> On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 1:33 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> It's currently powering four slots: Hayes modem, Hercules graphics, >> IBM floppy controller, and 8-bit ethernet. I can easily lose the modem >> and the ethernet (unless I want to relive my college days of DOS 3.3 >> packet drivers - which, come to think of it, may not even enough room >> with only 64K of RAM, so nevermind) > > Not sure of this but will 64K be enough RAM to work with a hard drive ? I > believe Dos 2.x was the first that supported hard drives, dunno what it's > minimum RAM requirement is tho. I know it boots DOS 2.11, so maybe this is enough. I'm keeping an eye out for a memory expansion card as well. 256K should be enough for anyone, right? :-) -Seth From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 16:41:08 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 16:41:08 -0500 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: References: <6165E983-3AD6-4DE2-99C0-D4632F4FD6BE@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A551274.7080705@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > My memory is that the power budget is strained with a full boat of > cards and a pair of floppies. I remember trying to power one (this a 5.25" FH, however) from a 5150 PSU, and it just wasn't happening, even with a cut-down machine. As you say, a 3.5" drive *might* do better. I've got a feeling the were other issues too - either with the 5150 BIOS and hard disk compatibility, or purely with the amount of RAM available to run a hard-disk-aware OS. From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 8 16:50:51 2009 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 22:50:51 +0100 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: References: <6165E983-3AD6-4DE2-99C0-D4632F4FD6BE@neurotica.com> <4A550C2C.9040007@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4A5514BB.9060008@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Seth Morabito wrote: > On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 2:14 PM, Phill > Harvey-Smith wrote: >> Not sure of this but will 64K be enough RAM to work with a hard drive ? I >> believe Dos 2.x was the first that supported hard drives, dunno what it's >> minimum RAM requirement is tho. > > I know it boots DOS 2.11, so maybe this is enough. Though that's with a floppy only system, a hard disk will of course need some memory for buffers, house keeping etc. > I'm keeping an eye out for a memory expansion card as well. 256K > should be enough for anyone, right? :-) 640K acording to Mr Gates..... Actually I'm supprised no one has made an XT type card that has a single 1M SIMM mounted on it to expand the memory to 640K, should be pretty easy to do as most simms will self refresh if you reverse the order of RAS and CAS once in a while. I know this is at least in theory possible, as I have hooked a 1M simm up to a Dragon 32 (UK CoCo clone) in this way. Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Jul 8 18:34:24 2009 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 16:34:24 -0700 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: References: <6165E983-3AD6-4DE2-99C0-D4632F4FD6BE@neurotica.com> <4A550C2C.9040007@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 2:38 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > I'm keeping an eye out for a memory expansion card as well. 256K > should be enough for anyone, right? :-) Oh, I take that back. I am a dimwit. It's got a Rev. 3 motherboard, on which is printed "64KB-256KB", and all the DRAM banks are filled, so I assume it's a 256KB system, NOT a 64KB system. Unlike the 5160, the POST doesn't tell me how much RAM it has when it turns on, and I just incorrectly assumed it was 64KB. Live and learn! -Seth From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Jul 8 18:36:17 2009 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 16:36:17 -0700 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: <4A5514BB.9060008@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <6165E983-3AD6-4DE2-99C0-D4632F4FD6BE@neurotica.com> <4A550C2C.9040007@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4A5514BB.9060008@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 2:50 PM, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > Actually I'm supprised no one has made an XT type card that has a single 1M > SIMM mounted on it to expand the memory to 640K, should be pretty easy to do > as most simms will self refresh if you reverse the order of RAS and CAS once > in a while. I know this is at least in theory possible, as I have hooked a > 1M simm up to a Dragon 32 (UK CoCo clone) in this way. Now that you mention it, I'm surprised too. I'll do some research to see if anyone else has done one. If not, it could be a fun and quick project. Of course, these days it's getting hard to find 1M SIMMs, too... -Seth From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 8 19:01:28 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 17:01:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: References: <6165E983-3AD6-4DE2-99C0-D4632F4FD6BE@neurotica.com> <4A550C2C.9040007@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <20090708165630.S40464@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 8 Jul 2009, Seth Morabito wrote: > Oh, I take that back. I am a dimwit. It's got a Rev. 3 motherboard, on > which is printed "64KB-256KB", and all the DRAM banks are filled, so I > assume it's a 256KB system, NOT a 64KB system. That motherboard can be trivially modified to support 2 rows of 256K, plus 2 rows of 64K (one of which is already soldered in. That will give you 640K, which is plenty for ANYBODY. > Unlike the 5160, the POST doesn't tell me how much RAM it has when it > turns on, and I just incorrectly assumed it was 64KB. try CHKDSK You can run Windoze 3.00, but NOT 3.10 or newer. PC-DOS 2.1x is a good choice for it, although some will tell you to run 5.00 or DR-DOS, etc. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 8 19:05:27 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 17:05:27 -0700 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: References: , <4A5514BB.9060008@aurigae.demon.co.uk>, Message-ID: <4A54D1D7.4903.143AE695@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Jul 2009 at 16:36, Seth Morabito wrote: > Now that you mention it, I'm surprised too. I'll do some research to > see if anyone else has done one. If not, it could be a fun and quick > project. > > Of course, these days it's getting hard to find 1M SIMMs, too... You could fill up the base RAM area with one 512Kx8 and one 128Kx8 SRAM. Under $10 for the big part and around $5 for the small one. Fully static; no clocks and no worrying about refresh or finding the correct socket. 55-70 nS access time. --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 19:21:26 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 01:21:26 +0100 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: <20090708165630.S40464@shell.lmi.net> References: <6165E983-3AD6-4DE2-99C0-D4632F4FD6BE@neurotica.com> <4A550C2C.9040007@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <20090708165630.S40464@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <575131af0907081721ld39b58h7439d2fe565e326@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/9 Fred Cisin : > On Wed, 8 Jul 2009, Seth Morabito wrote: >> Oh, I take that back. I am a dimwit. It's got a Rev. 3 motherboard, on >> which is printed "64KB-256KB", and all the DRAM banks are filled, so I >> assume it's a 256KB system, NOT a 64KB system. > > That motherboard can be trivially modified to support 2 rows of 256K, plus > 2 rows of 64K (one of which is already soldered in. > > That will give you 640K, which is plenty for ANYBODY. > >> Unlike the 5160, the POST doesn't tell me how much RAM it has when it >> turns on, and I just incorrectly assumed it was 64KB. > > try CHKDSK > > You can run Windoze 3.00, but NOT 3.10 or newer. > > > PC-DOS 2.1x is a good choice for it, although some will tell you to run > 5.00 or DR-DOS, etc. Depends what you want to do. If you want to play around with DOS apps of the period, MS-DOS 3.3 is the best bet. Good range of basic functionality in a reasonably small memory footprint. If you want to use the DOS prompt, play with different media, stuff like that, DR-DOS 5 offers more functionality - a better editor, ability to move files, rename directories, stuff like that - but it's bigger. A fair bit bigger. On a 386, it's effectively smaller as you can move bits out of base memory, but not on an 8086. Any version after DR-DOS 5 -- DR-DOS 6 or 7, MS-DOS 5, 6, 6.2, PC DOS 6 or 7 or 2000 - will be bigger still; all the extra functionality won't work on an 8086. Digital Research's DOS+ will run and is an interesting curiosity. Very elderly versions of Concurrent DOS will, too. And Compaq DOS 3.31 will enable you to have big (>32MB) disk partitions in a way that's compatible with any later OS, without any extensions or drivers or patches. But I'd probably go with MS-DOS 3.3, and some vintage apps like WordStar 4, Lotus 1-2-3 2, SideKick and stuff like that, for a feel of early-1980s PC computing. It wasn't pretty. :?) DESQview would run, and probably so would GEM - even FreeGEM from www.deltasoft.com - if you fancy multitasking or a GUI. But not both at once... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jul 8 08:29:43 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 06:29:43 -0700 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: <575131af0907081721ld39b58h7439d2fe565e326@mail.gmail.com> References: <6165E983-3AD6-4DE2-99C0-D4632F4FD6BE@neurotica.com> <4A550C2C.9040007@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <20090708165630.S40464@shell.lmi.net> <575131af0907081721ld39b58h7439d2fe565e326@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A549F47.8010301@jetnet.ab.ca> Liam Proven wrote: > DESQview would run, and probably so would GEM - even FreeGEM from > www.deltasoft.com - if you fancy multitasking or a GUI. But not both > at once... > > PASCAL too would run ... I saw the link a few months back. I got the Sams 8088 assembler lang programing book, just the Cat's meyow for this. Ben. From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 19:51:07 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 01:51:07 +0100 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: <4A549F47.8010301@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <6165E983-3AD6-4DE2-99C0-D4632F4FD6BE@neurotica.com> <4A550C2C.9040007@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <20090708165630.S40464@shell.lmi.net> <575131af0907081721ld39b58h7439d2fe565e326@mail.gmail.com> <4A549F47.8010301@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <575131af0907081751p1998da6ese8228627688d34eb@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/8 Ben : > Liam Proven wrote: >> >> DESQview would run, and probably so would GEM - even FreeGEM from >> www.deltasoft.com - if you fancy multitasking or a GUI. But not both >> at once... >> >> > > PASCAL too would run ... I saw the link a few months back. > I got the Sams 8088 assembler lang programing book, just the Cat's meyow for > this. > Ben. Several forms, yes - Borland's early versions of TurboPascal, the original UCDS p-System, and so on. Basically, almost any DOS app from up to 1988-1989 or so. When Windows 3 came along and 386s started to get commonplace, some of the high-end DOS apps started gaining 386-specific features, or wouldn't run in a DOS config without 600K or so of conventional memory and some expanded or extended RAM too. That's damned near impossible on an 8086 machine. For instance, Lotus 1-2-3 r3 won't run: it needs a 286 and 1MB of RAM. Even Windows 3.0 in VGA mode won't work - the VGA driver uses 80286 instructions. An NEC V30 chip is a socket-compatible replacement that implements the real-mode 286 instructions, so it will run Win3 in VGA - but that's getting a long way from a standard IBM PC. But most DOS apps that predate Windows 3.0 will work, including umpteen programming languages from QuickBASIC to Turbo Prolog. Just not very fast, that's all. :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 20:00:30 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 20:00:30 -0500 Subject: Are these imsai boards? Message-ID: <6dbe3c380907081800s39c02d7du4c41904bb234eb01@mail.gmail.com> Definitely not amiga anyway. http://cgi.ebay.com/Commodore-Parts-Boards-Ram-Amiga_W0QQitemZ150357671766QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item230203ff56&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A10|66%3A2|39%3A1|293%3A4|294%3A50 From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 8 20:13:39 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 18:13:39 -0700 Subject: Are these imsai boards? In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380907081800s39c02d7du4c41904bb234eb01@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380907081800s39c02d7du4c41904bb234eb01@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A54E1D3.318.147957D0@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Jul 2009 at 20:00, Brian Lanning wrote: > Definitely not amiga anyway. > > Item 150357671766 They look like S-100 to me. Note the voltage regulators/heatsinks. Don't know what the controller is, however. --Chuck From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Jul 8 21:39:27 2009 From: melamy at earthlink.net (melamy at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 19:39:27 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: Are these imsai boards? Message-ID: <5454263.1247107167444.JavaMail.root@mswamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> There are all s-100 boards. It looks like (2) 16K Seattle computer Products boards, a Northstar single density floppy controller card, and an unrecognizable static ram card (to me at least). best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- >From: Chuck Guzis >Sent: Jul 8, 2009 6:13 PM >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >Subject: Re: Are these imsai boards? > >On 8 Jul 2009 at 20:00, Brian Lanning wrote: > >> Definitely not amiga anyway. >> >> Item 150357671766 > >They look like S-100 to me. Note the voltage regulators/heatsinks. >Don't know what the controller is, however. > >--Chuck > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 22:08:57 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 23:08:57 -0400 Subject: Are these imsai boards? In-Reply-To: <4A54E1D3.318.147957D0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <6dbe3c380907081800s39c02d7du4c41904bb234eb01@mail.gmail.com> <4A54E1D3.318.147957D0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 7/8/09, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 Jul 2009 at 20:00, Brian Lanning wrote: > > > Definitely not amiga anyway. > > > > Item 150357671766 Nope. All the Zorro-I cards I've seen (which is like three) were square, not rectangular. > They look like S-100 to me. Note the voltage regulators/heatsinks. I concur. There also were never any 16K cards for the Amiga. Even the "slap on the front" memory expansion for the A1000 was 256K. The only way to get 16Kbytes with 32 chips is with 4Kbit chips - definitely 1970s density. > Don't know what the controller is, however. No idea either, but that is a 34-pin 0.1"spacing pin header on the right. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 22:40:39 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 23:40:39 -0400 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: <575131af0907081721ld39b58h7439d2fe565e326@mail.gmail.com> References: <6165E983-3AD6-4DE2-99C0-D4632F4FD6BE@neurotica.com> <4A550C2C.9040007@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <20090708165630.S40464@shell.lmi.net> <575131af0907081721ld39b58h7439d2fe565e326@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 7/8/09, Liam Proven wrote: > If you want to play around with DOS apps of the period, MS-DOS 3.3 is > the best bet. Yes. Especially if you are used to DOS 5 or DOS 6, DOS 3.3 won't feel too "odd", but takes up less memory than the newer versions. Even a few K makes a huge difference, in case you've forgotten how painful it was. > But I'd probably go with MS-DOS 3.3, and some vintage apps like > WordStar 4, Lotus 1-2-3 2, SideKick and stuff like that, for a feel of > early-1980s PC computing. It wasn't pretty. :?) I agree it wasn't pretty. Fortunately for me, I "missed out" when that stuff was current. I was working on DEC computers at work, Commodore computers at home, and classic Macs at my mother's small business when "the whole business world" was using DOS. I didn't get a DOS box at home until about 1991. Except for one project in 1988 (application development for a motor platform for a remote microscope), I didn't really use DOS at work on a daily basis until 1995 (the same year I first got paid to set up a Linux box, coincidentally), and even then, I had my Amiga on same desk for "real" work. What else was popular back then... Procomm for dialup terminal emulation (if you weren't using Kermit), Turbo Pascal for app development (unless you were already a dyed-in-the-wool C programmer, and there were options for that), games of course, and before Word or WordPerfect or even WordStar, there was WordVision by Bruce and James software (my first employer). I have a copy of it downstairs - it comes on a PC-DOS 1.0 install floppy w/copy protection, and the box says "PC-DOS 1.0 or higher required, 256K of RAM required, floppy drive required". It uses timing loops, so it really only runs right at 4.77MHz (but I think someone came up with a timing loop constant patch program when machines over 8MHz started coming along). In 1982, it was really great; not so much so by 1984 when the company folded. Glad I got a copy of the product to show off what things used to be like before hard disks were common as mud. -ethan From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 23:08:18 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 23:08:18 -0500 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: References: <6165E983-3AD6-4DE2-99C0-D4632F4FD6BE@neurotica.com> <4A550C2C.9040007@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <20090708165630.S40464@shell.lmi.net> <575131af0907081721ld39b58h7439d2fe565e326@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380907082108w51f2851bkf14c09a7380d1681@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Yes. ?Especially if you are used to DOS 5 or DOS 6, DOS 3.3 won't feel > too "odd", but takes up less memory than the newer versions. I had an original 5150. If I remember correctly, mine came with 2.1. (this was the 8th grade for me) Then when I was at school, i snuck into the nurse's office and sat down at one of two XTs they had. (Not sure why they were in the nurse's office). I was in awe over the hard drive, which was the first I had ever seen. I was also excited about finding a new version of DOS (3.3) since debug had an assembler! Debug in 2.1 would only unassemble. I managed to make a bootable 3.3 floppy that worked on my home machine. Now you could type in opcodes and it would translate them into bytes. Up to that point, I had been unassembling random memory looking for the instruction that I wanted, then writing down the bytes, and reverse-engineering the address offset parts of the machine language instructions, then typing the bytes back in to write programs. I managed to write some fairly rudimentary programs by using just the assembler in debug. The programs were silly and mostly useless, but it was good experience though. Years later at university, I had an assembly language class. I was delighted when the professor switched it from system/370 to intel assembly. I slept through the class and got an A. And to think that my parents were very hesitant to buy a computer for me, convinced that I would only use it to play games. Later, I worked for a year and a half making minimum wage to save money to buy an amiga. They wouldn't spend a dime to help me with that computer either, since everyone knew it was a game machine. I played a lot of games on it, but it also taught me 68000 assembly and this useless skill called C. brian From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 8 23:33:59 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 21:33:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380907082108w51f2851bkf14c09a7380d1681@mail.gmail.com> References: <6165E983-3AD6-4DE2-99C0-D4632F4FD6BE@neurotica.com> <4A550C2C.9040007@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <20090708165630.S40464@shell.lmi.net> <575131af0907081721ld39b58h7439d2fe565e326@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380907082108w51f2851bkf14c09a7380d1681@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090708212805.L40464@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 8 Jul 2009, Brian Lanning wrote: > about finding a new version of DOS (3.3) since debug had an assembler! > Debug in 2.1 would only unassemble. I managed to make a bootable 3.3 Strange. I've used the DEBUG assembly capability in every version of PC-DOS, and most versions of MS-DOS. On some OEM versions of MS-DOS, MASM was included; on some, including PC-DOS, MASM was a separate product. Was the Seattle Computer Products assembler ever available commercially? It was nice to not have the almost COBOL level of overhead when writing very tiny programs. From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 23:40:02 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 23:40:02 -0500 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: <20090708212805.L40464@shell.lmi.net> References: <4A550C2C.9040007@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <20090708165630.S40464@shell.lmi.net> <575131af0907081721ld39b58h7439d2fe565e326@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380907082108w51f2851bkf14c09a7380d1681@mail.gmail.com> <20090708212805.L40464@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380907082140p52c77658m9cf8f3b139639ed0@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 11:33 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 8 Jul 2009, Brian Lanning wrote: >> about finding a new version of DOS (3.3) since debug had an assembler! >> ?Debug in 2.1 would only unassemble. ?I managed to make a bootable 3.3 > > > Strange. > I've used the DEBUG assembly capability in every version of PC-DOS, and > most versions of MS-DOS. > > > On some OEM versions of MS-DOS, MASM was included; on some, including > PC-DOS, MASM was a separate product. It could have easily been an older version of DOS I was using. I don't remember for sure. But I know for sure assembling didn't work. Unassembling worked just fine though. I know I didn't have masm either. From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 23:50:26 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 23:50:26 -0500 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) (continued...again...) Message-ID: <6dbe3c380907082150s72617873r55ec16bb4e6d0c0b@mail.gmail.com> I have but one obstacle left... being able to unpack an apple floppy image file from a PC. I have a bin file containing the files I need to get the quadra going. I got the floppy drive working on the quadra. I can read and write mac floppies from my windows machine. But I can't get the files out of the bin file. And I can't write the bin file directly to the disk and make the quadra read it. So i need either a mac emulator I can run on XP, or a windows utility to unpack the mac bin file and produce individual files which I can write to the floppy. Anyone have any ideas? I also picked up a rare and elusive kung-fu black terminator for the IIfx. So I should be able to attach the 600e to that machine and get it going. That hard drive would hopefully be recognized by the install CD. Then I would only need to find an AUI to RJ-45 doodad which is skinny enough to fit into the recessed ports on the IIfx. I have an AUI thingy now, but it's too fat to reach the db-15 connector on the network card. brian From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 9 00:09:45 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 22:09:45 -0700 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: References: , <575131af0907081721ld39b58h7439d2fe565e326@mail.gmail.com>, Message-ID: <4A551929.22261.15517E78@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Jul 2009 at 23:40, Ethan Dicks wrote: > What else was popular back then... Procomm for dialup terminal > emulation (if you weren't using Kermit), Turbo Pascal for app > development (unless you were already a dyed-in-the-wool C programmer, > and there were options for that), games of course, and before Word or > WordPerfect or even WordStar, there was WordVision by Bruce and James > software (my first employer). The first programs for the PC generally were direct ports of Z80/8080 CP/M products. WordStar (3.30?) was released for DOS in 1982 and was basically the Z80 version run through an assembly-code translator and patched. ISTR that you could still patch it to talk to terminals. I never encountered WordVision. Supercalc, Multiplan, etc. were all minimal ports of the basic CP/M product. If you wanted to use C, you bought Lattice C from Microsoft (MS didn't have their own C). MASM 1.0 was a frightful hideously slow buggy affair that was offered in two separate versions--one for 64K systems and another for systems with more memory. I loathed MASM 1.0- -it was all too possible to generate the wrong code; something that should never happen with an assembler. IMOHO, Microsoft didn't start getting MASM right until about 4.0; 5.0 was a marked improvement and 6.0 finally represented something full-featured. There were few secrets back then--the DOS user's manual had all of the system calls documented as well as disk layout. By DOS 2.0, TSRs had begun proliferating. Indeed, one of the problems was collision between two TSRs that didn't agree on how to do things. Think of it as an early version of DLL Hell. You had popup editors, calculators, comms programs--all sorts of things. I offered a popup diskette formatter that operated in the background (yes, it was possible to multitask under DOS). I still have the demo diskette for Word 1.0 that was packed in one of the PC rags (PC World?). Compared to the Z80 CP/M world, the early PC world wasn't bad. After hard disks came on the scene and PCs had more memory options, it got markedly better. Shareware was the darling of the PC world--at last, one could write a program with a large audience. Bottonware was a huge success story. A lot of the darling programs are scarcely known now. Harvard Presentation Graphics, Micrographx Deisgner, Corel Draw, numerous accounting packages, games... You might want to poke around in the SIMTEL archives to see what there is to see. Cheers, Chuck From Watzman at neo.rr.com Thu Jul 9 00:11:52 2009 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 01:11:52 -0400 Subject: Are these imsai boards? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <413E70FC6A9F438692CB1253826DDE34@barry> They are all S-100 cards. One is a North Star floppy disk controller, the others, I think are all memory cards (two are Seattle Computer Products, one is Vector Graphics, I'm not sure about the last card). Subject: Re: Are these imsai boards? > > Definitely not amiga anyway. > > > > Item 150357671766 From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 9 00:29:39 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 22:29:39 -0700 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: <20090708212805.L40464@shell.lmi.net> References: , <6dbe3c380907082108w51f2851bkf14c09a7380d1681@mail.gmail.com>, <20090708212805.L40464@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4A551DD3.181.1563B84D@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Jul 2009 at 21:33, Fred Cisin wrote: > Strange. > I've used the DEBUG assembly capability in every version of PC-DOS, > and most versions of MS-DOS. My copy of the PC-DOS 1.1 manual here on the shelf shows the first command for DEBUG to be "C" for compare. There is no "A" command listed. If you'd like I can crank it up and see if it's there--but you'd think they'd have documented it. Honestly, I don't remember much from the DOS 1 days, other than how much better 2.0 was in comparison. I know that DEBUG had an assemble command in 2.0, but it may have crept into DOS in one of the "intermediate" OEM versions, such as 1.25. --Chuck From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Jul 9 04:00:26 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 11:00:26 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <4A54665D.11791.12971B8B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <87756350.1057941246988039004.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <4A5341D4.17858.E2063E6@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A54665D.11791.12971B8B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Jul 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Your 1988 PC is too late.. I did not say that the 765 needs the > IDAM, but that it was "blind" during the IDAM period. My PC is over 2 years older (1985/86), and it actually has an i8272A. You could have been more specific about the different revisions of that IC ;-) Christian From dgahling at hotmail.com Thu Jul 9 08:49:56 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 09:49:56 -0400 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) (continued...again...) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380907082150s72617873r55ec16bb4e6d0c0b@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380907082150s72617873r55ec16bb4e6d0c0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: a bin file isn't a packed file, AFAIK there's no direct way to get files out of it. the only way I know of is to write the file do a disk, then read the files from there. the reason is the bin is typically a "raw" disk perhaps a floppy emulator would work, but that's a lot of work, it's simpler just to write it to disk, then read the files off the disk. there were (should be) utilities to read the mac floppy on dos/windows. I used to have one, but have no idea where it is now. > Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 23:50:26 -0500 > Subject: Re: Classic mac fun (and some questions) (continued...again...) > From: brianlanning at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > I have but one obstacle left... being able to unpack an apple floppy > image file from a PC. I have a bin file containing the files I need > to get the quadra going. I got the floppy drive working on the > quadra. I can read and write mac floppies from my windows machine. > But I can't get the files out of the bin file. And I can't write the > bin file directly to the disk and make the quadra read it. So i need > either a mac emulator I can run on XP, or a windows utility to unpack > the mac bin file and produce individual files which I can write to the > floppy. Anyone have any ideas? > > I also picked up a rare and elusive kung-fu black terminator for the > IIfx. So I should be able to attach the 600e to that machine and get > it going. That hard drive would hopefully be recognized by the > install CD. Then I would only need to find an AUI to RJ-45 doodad > which is skinny enough to fit into the recessed ports on the IIfx. I > have an AUI thingy now, but it's too fat to reach the db-15 connector > on the network card. > > brian _________________________________________________________________ Create a cool, new character for your Windows Live? Messenger. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9656621 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jul 9 09:03:31 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 15:03:31 +0100 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) (continued...again...) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380907082150s72617873r55ec16bb4e6d0c0b@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380907082150s72617873r55ec16bb4e6d0c0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0907090703r4255246ycf66a6df6208d35b@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/9 Brian Lanning : > I have but one obstacle left... being able to unpack an apple floppy > image file from a PC. ?I have a bin file containing the files I need > to get the quadra going. ?I got the floppy drive working on the > quadra. ?I can read and write mac floppies from my windows machine. > But I can't get the files out of the bin file. ?And I can't write the > bin file directly to the disk and make the quadra read it. ?So i need > either a mac emulator I can run on XP, or a windows utility to unpack > the mac bin file and produce individual files which I can write to the > floppy. ?Anyone have any ideas? > > I also picked up a rare and elusive kung-fu black terminator for the > IIfx. ?So I should be able to attach the 600e to that machine and get > it going. ?That hard drive would hopefully be recognized by the > install CD. ?Then I would only need to find an AUI to RJ-45 doodad > which is skinny enough to fit into the recessed ports on the IIfx. ?I > have an AUI thingy now, but it's too fat to reach the db-15 connector > on the network card. What are you actually trying to achieve vis-a-vis .bin files, the PC and the Mac? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jul 9 09:38:37 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 07:38:37 -0700 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) (continued...again...) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380907082150s72617873r55ec16bb4e6d0c0b@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380907082150s72617873r55ec16bb4e6d0c0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 11:50 PM -0500 7/8/09, Brian Lanning wrote: >I have but one obstacle left... being able to unpack an apple floppy >image file from a PC. I have a bin file containing the files I need >to get the quadra going. I got the floppy drive working on the >quadra. I can read and write mac floppies from my windows machine. >But I can't get the files out of the bin file. And I can't write the >bin file directly to the disk and make the quadra read it. So i need >either a mac emulator I can run on XP, or a windows utility to unpack >the mac bin file and produce individual files which I can write to the >floppy. Anyone have any ideas? I used to do this using an emulator on Linux. It was how I got things transferred between my PC Laptop and my Mac Laptop when I was in the Navy. Take a look at Executor. From a quick Google, it appears that it is no longer a commercial product, and that the source code is available. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rickb at bensene.com Thu Jul 9 10:50:17 2009 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 08:50:17 -0700 Subject: Omni Systems? In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c380907082150s72617873r55ec16bb4e6d0c0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello, all, I am wondering if anyone here has had dealings with Omni Systems (www.omnicorp.net) located in New Jersey, and if so, if the experience was good or bad. They advertise on their website that they buy/sell DEC hardware. They have an item listed on their website that I've been looking for, and want to get any impressions from those here before I contact them. Their website looks as if it hasn't been updated in quite some time, and the Email links provide addresses that are rejected by their server, which raise some yellow flags with me. Any help is appreciated. Thanks, Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 9 11:00:48 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 12:00:48 -0400 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) (continued...again...) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380907082150s72617873r55ec16bb4e6d0c0b@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380907082150s72617873r55ec16bb4e6d0c0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 7/9/09, Brian Lanning wrote: > I also picked up a rare and elusive kung-fu black terminator for the > IIfx. So I should be able to attach the 600e to that machine and get > it going. I tried to look that up and found it easy to see that the IIfx needed something odd (I couldn't find specifics), so well done there. It would be interesting to get the details to see where Apple went off the rails from the SCSI spec. > Then I would only need to find an AUI to RJ-45 doodad > which is skinny enough to fit into the recessed ports on the IIfx. I > have an AUI thingy now, but it's too fat to reach the db-15 connector > on the network card. http://lowendmac.com/ii/macintosh-iifx.html Are you sure that's an AUI connection? I would expect a Mac of that vintage to have a DA-15 for video but not Ethernet. Does it have 4-40 screwposts or stud-heads to receive a slide-lock clip? I've never worked with a IIfx, but I would expect it to need a NuBus Ethernet card. If it really is an AUI, what was also common in the day was an AUI cable to the transceiver. I've seen plenty of heavy-duty ones from back in the 10Base2 days and lots of light-grade 1m to 2m-long thinner cables with molded black plastic ends that look suitable for office/desktop use. And some info... -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jul 9 11:04:31 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 12:04:31 -0400 Subject: Omni Systems? In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c380907082150s72617873r55ec16bb4e6d0c0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <755CCB92-5E4F-4054-846A-F8DB0725CE8D@neurotica.com> On Jul 9, 2009, at 11:50 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: > I am wondering if anyone here has had dealings with Omni Systems > (www.omnicorp.net) located in New Jersey, and if so, if the experience > was good or bad. > > They advertise on their website that they buy/sell DEC hardware. They > have an item listed on their website that I've been looking for, and > want to get any impressions from those here before I contact them. > Their website looks as if it hasn't been updated in quite some > time, and > the Email links provide addresses that are rejected by their server, > which raise some yellow flags with me. > > Any help is appreciated. I can tell you a lot about them. Omni Systems is a small company with a handful of employees. It is owned by a man named Jim Gonzalez. I have known him for about 26 years. He was my childhood DEC mentor and is largely responsible for my "getting going" in PDP-8 and PDP-11 stuff. He is ex-DEC field service, and knows his stuff very well. He left DEC and started Omni Systems some thirty years ago. Before I was old enough to drive, I would beg my grandmother to drive me up to his place (~2hrs away) with a stack of RL01 packs and my RSX11M distribution tape, so he could make me a set of install packs for my PDP-11/34a, as I lacked a magtape drive. I did that about three times as I learned about sysgen and expanded my system. He gave and sold me lots of hardware, and helped me get everything running. Over a few years my grandmother drove me up there perhaps a dozen times...she'd go upstairs and hang out with Jim's wife, while Jim and I would descend to the first floor and hack on PDP stuff. He and I lost touch for many years, but ran across each other again about three years ago. This past March, on a big road trip, I was able to stop by his place and hang out with his family a bit. He is one of the most all-around great guys I have ever known. I will call him and tell him about the email link issue. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jul 9 11:04:53 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 17:04:53 +0100 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) (continued...again...) In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c380907082150s72617873r55ec16bb4e6d0c0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A561525.6070303@dunnington.plus.com> On 09/07/2009 14:49, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > a bin file isn't a packed file, AFAIK there's no direct way to get files out of it. > the only way I know of is to write the file do a disk, then read the files from there. > the reason is the bin is typically a "raw" disk > > perhaps a floppy emulator would work, but that's a lot of work, > it's simpler just to write it to disk, then read the files off the disk. > there were (should be) utilities to read the mac floppy on dos/windows. > I used to have one, but have no idea where it is now. > >> Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 23:50:26 -0500 >> Subject: Re: Classic mac fun (and some questions) (continued...again...) >> From: brianlanning at gmail.com >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> >> I have but one obstacle left... being able to unpack an apple floppy >> image file from a PC. I have a bin file containing the files I need >> to get the quadra going. Chances are that it's actually a BinHex file, or perhaps one that's been unpacked, or it's a MacBinary file (later version of BinHex don't actually generate true hex, so it might still look "binary"). There are open source Unix utilities to unpack both of those formats, and also to handle AppleSingle files (similar to MacBinary). The catch is that the files inside will have two parts, a resource fork and a data fork (and possibly a third part, the Finder data). If you unpack them on a PC, you may lose the resource fork. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jul 9 11:32:19 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 17:32:19 +0100 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) (continued...again...) In-Reply-To: <4A561525.6070303@dunnington.plus.com> References: <6dbe3c380907082150s72617873r55ec16bb4e6d0c0b@mail.gmail.com> <4A561525.6070303@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <575131af0907090932k1e5dca02kb72bd0bc2e7f07ea@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/9 Pete Turnbull : > On 09/07/2009 14:49, Dan Gahlinger wrote: >> >> a bin file isn't a packed file, AFAIK there's no direct way to get files >> out of it. >> the only way I know of is to write the file do a disk, then read the files >> from there. >> the reason is the bin is typically a "raw" disk >> >> perhaps a floppy emulator would work, but that's a lot of work, >> it's simpler just to write it to disk, then read the files off the disk. >> there were (should be) utilities to read the mac floppy on dos/windows. >> I used to have one, but have no idea where it is now. >> >>> Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 23:50:26 -0500 >>> Subject: Re: Classic mac fun (and some questions) (continued...again...) >>> From: brianlanning at gmail.com >>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >>> >>> I have but one obstacle left... being able to unpack an apple floppy >>> image file from a PC. ?I have a bin file containing the files I need >>> to get the quadra going. > > Chances are that it's actually a BinHex file, or perhaps one that's been > unpacked, or it's a MacBinary file (later version of BinHex don't actually > generate true hex, so it might still look "binary"). ?There are open source > Unix utilities to unpack both of those formats, and also to handle > AppleSingle files (similar to MacBinary). ?The catch is that the files > inside will have two parts, a resource fork and a data fork (and possibly a > third part, the Finder data). ?If you unpack them on a PC, you may lose the > resource fork. Yup. Which is why I was asking what Brian was trying to do... :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jul 9 11:41:34 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 17:41:34 +0100 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) (continued...again...) In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c380907082150s72617873r55ec16bb4e6d0c0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A561DBE.5010103@dunnington.plus.com> On 09/07/2009 17:00, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Then I would only need to find an AUI to RJ-45 doodad >> which is skinny enough to fit into the recessed ports on the IIfx. I >> have an AUI thingy now, but it's too fat to reach the db-15 connector >> on the network card. > > http://lowendmac.com/ii/macintosh-iifx.html > > Are you sure that's an AUI connection? I would expect a Mac of that > vintage to have a DA-15 for video but not Ethernet. Does it have 4-40 > screwposts or stud-heads to receive a slide-lock clip? I've never > worked with a IIfx, but I would expect it to need a NuBus Ethernet > card. I don't have it now to check, but I'm sure my IIfx was indeed a DA-15. I still have the DA15-to-something-sensible adaptor. Mine did also have a network card, but the presentation was 10baseT. If it has 4-40 screws, it's video; if it's slide-lock, it's Ethernet. > If it really is an AUI, what was also common in the day was an AUI > cable to the transceiver. I've seen plenty of heavy-duty ones from > back in the 10Base2 days and lots of light-grade 1m to 2m-long thinner > cables with molded black plastic ends that look suitable for > office/desktop use. Companies like Allied Telesyn made two types of mini transceiver, there was the normal one (AT-210T) that was a more-or-less rectangular box with a slide-lock DA15 and rounded corners which works on most things because they don't have stupid slim recesses, and there was the "micro-transceiver" (AT-210TS) which is very slightly longer, but stepped so the end with the DA15 is only as thick as it needs to be to accommodate the connector, and hence fits Macs -- which is what it was specially designed for. Google will find you pictures. The AUI drop cables are actually specified to be thick blue things (normally with diecast metal connectors) for normal grade, and thinner beige things (with beige or black plastic-covered connectors for what is officially called "office grade" and restricted to short lengths. I was just about to put one or two (office grade) on eBay, if anyone needs one. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Jul 9 12:47:35 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 12:47:35 -0500 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) (continued...again...) In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c380907082150s72617873r55ec16bb4e6d0c0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380907091047s1d99571cw48aaf7a5748d1383@mail.gmail.com> I was able to find some schematics for the special iifx terminator. it was just a few extra filter caps. I had planned to make one, but hadn't got to it yet. I managed to find a real one first. the iifx has a nubus ethernet card with a 10base2 and aui connector but no rj45. the tranceiver I have is too fat to fit into the slot in the back of the machine. so it can't reach the db15. i've been meaning to setup a linux box so maybe i'll try the emulator route with that. On 7/9/09, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 7/9/09, Brian Lanning wrote: >> I also picked up a rare and elusive kung-fu black terminator for the >> IIfx. So I should be able to attach the 600e to that machine and get >> it going. > > I tried to look that up and found it easy to see that the IIfx needed > something odd (I couldn't find specifics), so well done there. It > would be interesting to get the details to see where Apple went off > the rails from the SCSI spec. > >> Then I would only need to find an AUI to RJ-45 doodad >> which is skinny enough to fit into the recessed ports on the IIfx. I >> have an AUI thingy now, but it's too fat to reach the db-15 connector >> on the network card. > > http://lowendmac.com/ii/macintosh-iifx.html > > Are you sure that's an AUI connection? I would expect a Mac of that > vintage to have a DA-15 for video but not Ethernet. Does it have 4-40 > screwposts or stud-heads to receive a slide-lock clip? I've never > worked with a IIfx, but I would expect it to need a NuBus Ethernet > card. > > If it really is an AUI, what was also common in the day was an AUI > cable to the transceiver. I've seen plenty of heavy-duty ones from > back in the 10Base2 days and lots of light-grade 1m to 2m-long thinner > cables with molded black plastic ends that look suitable for > office/desktop use. > > > > And some info... > > > > -ethan > From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Jul 9 13:03:05 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 11:03:05 -0700 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) (continued...again...) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380907091047s1d99571cw48aaf7a5748d1383@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380907082150s72617873r55ec16bb4e6d0c0b@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380907091047s1d99571cw48aaf7a5748d1383@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: FWIW: I have two different styles of AUI-to-UTP converters. One is the block style that's been mentioned here. The other has a short lead terminated in a DB15. I don't have a IIfx so I can't test the hypothesis, but if it's similar to the IIsi I think it should fit. -- Ian PS: where did I get those transceivers? eBay.... > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brian Lanning > Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 10:48 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Classic mac fun (and some questions) > (continued...again...) > > I was able to find some schematics for the special iifx terminator. > it was just a few extra filter caps. I had planned to make one, but > hadn't got to it yet. I managed to find a real one first. > > the iifx has a nubus ethernet card with a 10base2 and aui connector > but no rj45. the tranceiver I have is too fat to fit into the slot in > the back of the machine. so it can't reach the db15. > > i've been meaning to setup a linux box so maybe i'll try the emulator > route with that. > > On 7/9/09, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On 7/9/09, Brian Lanning wrote: > >> I also picked up a rare and elusive kung-fu black terminator for > the > >> IIfx. So I should be able to attach the 600e to that machine and > get > >> it going. > > > > I tried to look that up and found it easy to see that the IIfx needed > > something odd (I couldn't find specifics), so well done there. It > > would be interesting to get the details to see where Apple went off > > the rails from the SCSI spec. > > > >> Then I would only need to find an AUI to RJ-45 doodad > >> which is skinny enough to fit into the recessed ports on the IIfx. > I > >> have an AUI thingy now, but it's too fat to reach the db-15 > connector > >> on the network card. > > > > http://lowendmac.com/ii/macintosh-iifx.html > > > > Are you sure that's an AUI connection? I would expect a Mac of that > > vintage to have a DA-15 for video but not Ethernet. Does it have 4- > 40 > > screwposts or stud-heads to receive a slide-lock clip? I've never > > worked with a IIfx, but I would expect it to need a NuBus Ethernet > > card. > > > > If it really is an AUI, what was also common in the day was an AUI > > cable to the transceiver. I've seen plenty of heavy-duty ones from > > back in the 10Base2 days and lots of light-grade 1m to 2m-long > thinner > > cables with molded black plastic ends that look suitable for > > office/desktop use. > > > > Cable-Office-Environment-10-ft-3-0-m/LCN210-0010> > > > > And some info... > > > > > > > > -ethan > > From rescue at hawkmountain.net Thu Jul 9 17:20:28 2009 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 18:20:28 -0400 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) (continued...again...) In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c380907082150s72617873r55ec16bb4e6d0c0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A566D2C.4010308@hawkmountain.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 7/9/09, Brian Lanning wrote: > >> I also picked up a rare and elusive kung-fu black terminator for the >> IIfx. So I should be able to attach the 600e to that machine and get >> it going. >> > > I tried to look that up and found it easy to see that the IIfx needed > something odd (I couldn't find specifics), so well done there. It > would be interesting to get the details to see where Apple went off > the rails from the SCSI spec. > > >> Then I would only need to find an AUI to RJ-45 doodad >> which is skinny enough to fit into the recessed ports on the IIfx. I >> have an AUI thingy now, but it's too fat to reach the db-15 connector >> on the network card. >> > > http://lowendmac.com/ii/macintosh-iifx.html > > Are you sure that's an AUI connection? I would expect a Mac of that > vintage to have a DA-15 for video but not Ethernet. Does it have 4-40 > screwposts or stud-heads to receive a slide-lock clip? I've never > worked with a IIfx, but I would expect it to need a NuBus Ethernet > card. > As I recall the IIFX did not have a net connection on the motherboard... it was always via expansion card. The cards usually had AUI and 10base2 (coax), AUI and 10baseT, and possibly all 3. Definitely did not have AAUI that I recall. -- Curt > If it really is an AUI, what was also common in the day was an AUI > cable to the transceiver. I've seen plenty of heavy-duty ones from > back in the 10Base2 days and lots of light-grade 1m to 2m-long thinner > cables with molded black plastic ends that look suitable for > office/desktop use. > > > > And some info... > > > > -ethan > > From rescue at hawkmountain.net Thu Jul 9 17:28:29 2009 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 18:28:29 -0400 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) (continued...again...) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380907091047s1d99571cw48aaf7a5748d1383@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380907082150s72617873r55ec16bb4e6d0c0b@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380907091047s1d99571cw48aaf7a5748d1383@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A566F0D.2050609@hawkmountain.net> Brian Lanning wrote: > I was able to find some schematics for the special iifx terminator. > it was just a few extra filter caps. I had planned to make one, but > hadn't got to it yet. I managed to find a real one first. > > the iifx has a nubus ethernet card with a 10base2 and aui connector > but no rj45. the tranceiver I have is too fat to fit into the slot in > the back of the machine. so it can't reach the db15. > someone here should have an AUI cable you could use between the computer and the transciever... I may have somewhere... but it would take a lot of digging (haven't used AUI cables in yrs). -- Curt > i've been meaning to setup a linux box so maybe i'll try the emulator > route with that. > > On 7/9/09, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> On 7/9/09, Brian Lanning wrote: >> >>> I also picked up a rare and elusive kung-fu black terminator for the >>> IIfx. So I should be able to attach the 600e to that machine and get >>> it going. >>> >> I tried to look that up and found it easy to see that the IIfx needed >> something odd (I couldn't find specifics), so well done there. It >> would be interesting to get the details to see where Apple went off >> the rails from the SCSI spec. >> >> >>> Then I would only need to find an AUI to RJ-45 doodad >>> which is skinny enough to fit into the recessed ports on the IIfx. I >>> have an AUI thingy now, but it's too fat to reach the db-15 connector >>> on the network card. >>> >> http://lowendmac.com/ii/macintosh-iifx.html >> >> Are you sure that's an AUI connection? I would expect a Mac of that >> vintage to have a DA-15 for video but not Ethernet. Does it have 4-40 >> screwposts or stud-heads to receive a slide-lock clip? I've never >> worked with a IIfx, but I would expect it to need a NuBus Ethernet >> card. >> >> If it really is an AUI, what was also common in the day was an AUI >> cable to the transceiver. I've seen plenty of heavy-duty ones from >> back in the 10Base2 days and lots of light-grade 1m to 2m-long thinner >> cables with molded black plastic ends that look suitable for >> office/desktop use. >> >> >> >> And some info... >> >> >> >> -ethan >> >> > > From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Jul 9 18:51:58 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 18:51:58 -0500 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) (continued...again...) In-Reply-To: <4A566F0D.2050609@hawkmountain.net> References: <6dbe3c380907082150s72617873r55ec16bb4e6d0c0b@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380907091047s1d99571cw48aaf7a5748d1383@mail.gmail.com> <4A566F0D.2050609@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380907091651g39a7ae99l6e675d1f4a262aab@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 5:28 PM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > someone here should have an AUI cable you could use between > the computer and the transciever... I may have somewhere... > but it would take a lot of digging (haven't used AUI cables in yrs). If anyone has an aui cable or skinny transceiver they're willing to sell or trade, please let me know. Thanks. brian From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Jul 9 20:24:40 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 20:24:40 -0500 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: <20090708131900.O28532@shell.lmi.net> References: <20090708131900.O28532@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4A569858.9010702@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: > XT doubled the power supply output. And full height 5.25" hard drives > needed it. A small relatively modern drive might be able to squeak by > with the 65 W supply. I know this is going to sound sacreligious, but can any 1990s-era power supply (ie. 200w) be used too? I ask because I have two 5150s without working power supplies and figured I could dummy up one or both of them as testing/workhorse machines. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 9 20:40:14 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 18:40:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: <4A569858.9010702@oldskool.org> References: <20090708131900.O28532@shell.lmi.net> <4A569858.9010702@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20090709183256.U85558@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 9 Jul 2009, Jim Leonard wrote: > I know this is going to sound sacreligious, but can any 1990s-era power > supply (ie. 200w) be used too? I ask because I have two 5150s without > working power supplies and figured I could dummy up one or both of them > as testing/workhorse machines. Yes! Well, at least EARLY 90s (135W, 150W, . . .) Until the advent of the ATX boards, PS/2, tower cases, etc., the PC power supplies were pretty much interchangeable. Some AT power supplies are too tall for the 5150 case. Tower case power supplies may need different mounting holes? Some later power supplies have extra connections for CPU fan, etc. The power supply may not be testable without a load. I use a car headlight bulb. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 9 21:00:27 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 19:00:27 -0700 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: <4A569858.9010702@oldskool.org> References: , <20090708131900.O28532@shell.lmi.net>, <4A569858.9010702@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4A563E4B.5021.19CA86B4@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Jul 2009 at 20:24, Jim Leonard wrote: > I know this is going to sound sacreligious, but can any 1990s-era > power supply (ie. 200w) be used too? I ask because I have two 5150s > without working power supplies and figured I could dummy up one or > both of them as testing/workhorse machines. By and large, yes, for the non-ATX supplies. To keep the "authentic" look you may want to repackage the innards in the old PSU box. The PCB of the newer supply will almostl inevitably be smaller. The 80's PSUs generally had huge toroids and heatsinks; by the mid 90's, they'd figured out how to make 'em cheap. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 9 21:27:37 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 22:27:37 -0400 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: <4A569858.9010702@oldskool.org> References: <20090708131900.O28532@shell.lmi.net> <4A569858.9010702@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On 7/9/09, Jim Leonard wrote: > I know this is going to sound sacreligious, but can any 1990s-era power > supply (ie. 200w) be used too? I ask because I have two 5150s without > working power supplies and figured I could dummy up one or both of them as > testing/workhorse machines. Electrically, sure. Mechanically, though, I don't think a modern PSU will fit so well, and you have no place to mount the 110V power switch that's at the end of the extension lead. For open-topped bench work, it'll work just fine if you find a way to address the mounting issues. -ethan From borisg at unixg.ubc.ca Thu Jul 9 22:27:14 2009 From: borisg at unixg.ubc.ca (Boris Gimbarzevsky) Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 19:27:14 -0800 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) (continued...again...) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380907082150s72617873r55ec16bb4e6d0c0b@mail.gmail.co m> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20090709192057.06466cf0@mail.interchange.ubc.ca> Use BasiliskII to emulate a Mac under XP. The version that I've found works best for me is at: http://gwenole.beauchesne.info//en/projects/basilisk2 All you need is a copy of your Mac's ROM and an image of a HDD with a Mac OS. Be warned though, once you see how fast a 680x0 Mac runs under emulation on a fast machine it's hard to go back to the real Macs. Recently I pulled my MacIIvx out of storeage and was shocked at how slowly it ran. It was nice, however, to see again how much functionality could be crammed into a program << 1 Mb in size Boris Gimbarzevsky >I have but one obstacle left... being able to unpack an apple floppy >image file from a PC. I have a bin file containing the files I need >to get the quadra going. I got the floppy drive working on the >quadra. I can read and write mac floppies from my windows machine. >But I can't get the files out of the bin file. And I can't write the >bin file directly to the disk and make the quadra read it. So i need >either a mac emulator I can run on XP, or a windows utility to unpack >the mac bin file and produce individual files which I can write to the >floppy. Anyone have any ideas? > >I also picked up a rare and elusive kung-fu black terminator for the >IIfx. So I should be able to attach the 600e to that machine and get >it going. That hard drive would hopefully be recognized by the >install CD. Then I would only need to find an AUI to RJ-45 doodad >which is skinny enough to fit into the recessed ports on the IIfx. I >have an AUI thingy now, but it's too fat to reach the db-15 connector >on the network card. > >brian From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Jul 9 22:39:27 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 22:39:27 -0500 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) (continued...again...) In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20090709192057.06466cf0@mail.interchange.ubc.ca> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20090709192057.06466cf0@mail.interchange.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380907092039w6855f0c6p33cf5a35a34a17f8@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 10:27 PM, Boris Gimbarzevsky wrote: > Use BasiliskII to emulate a Mac under XP. ?The version that I've found works > best for me is at: > http://gwenole.beauchesne.info//en/projects/basilisk2 Thanks, I'll have a look. WinUAE (the amiga emulator) is great for installing and setting up an OS on a new hard drive prior to sticking it in a machine. > All you need is a copy of your Mac's ROM and an image of a HDD with a Mac > OS. Do I need any unicorn blood? ;-) brian From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Fri Jul 10 00:02:44 2009 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 23:02:44 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Ebay: IBM 026 and 083, punch and sorter Message-ID: <1247202164.4a56cb742f0f3@www.jblaser.org> I know I don't have a warehouse-sized workroom to hold this kind of gear, so I'll pass. Still, it'd be sad to see these two items melted down and made into Ford truck bumpers or whatever. Someone in the upper Midwest might be up for saving some real 'iron' from the chopper. A bit pricey for the opening bids, but pretty interesting stuff, and claimed to be in working order. I haven't seen anything like this since a one-time adventure learning FORTRAN on an IBM 360 via card-fed batch jobs back in 1976. Collectible Vintage IBM 026 Card Punch Machine computer Item number: 260443687771 Vintage IBM 083 Card Sorter Item number: 260443687154 From bqt at softjar.se Thu Jul 9 04:36:08 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 11:36:08 +0200 Subject: VAX-11/750 EMC Memory Board LEDs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A55BA08.1040605@softjar.se> David Comley wrote: > --- On Wed, 7/8/09, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> > One possibility is an ECC fault.? ISTR that since the >> > boards fire up >> > with zero or random contents, most/all of the locations >> > don't have the >> > right check bits.? The board sets the checkbits all at >> > once at >> > power-on, possibly with some sort of startup/refresh >> > counter, so it >> > might take a noticeable time to strobe through the array. > > Yes, that seems reasonable. The puzzling thing is that on all the boards, the light stays on, just less brightly, after a few seconds. Sounds unlikely that they indicate ECC errors if the are on most of the time, even if dim. Access seems much more likely. > Is it the memory board or the memory controller that sets the checkbits ? It is the memory controller. The board itself is a pretty stupid array of memory cells. Even ECC isn't handled on the board, if I remember right, but is handled by the controller. The board just gives 39 data bits for every 32-bit word. And at startup, every memory board is accessed in parallell by the controller to initialize the ECC bits. So they should all be glowing brightly at startup if it is an access indicator. But in that case, I would expect them all to then turn off as no memory access will be going on after that, until the machine boots. >> > dark?? Are your RAM chips socketed by chance > > No, they're soldered in. > > Each one has a switch that I believe allows you to take the board offline. I can take any board offline (which throws a red memory configuration error lamp on the memory controller) except for the board in the left-most slot, no matter how few or many of these things I put in there. That makes sense. If you remove any board in the middle, you get a weird hole in the memory map, which is illegal. The board at the left end is the last board, so removing that one isn't a problem. You don't create a hole then, you just reduce the amount of memory you have. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From trag at io.com Thu Jul 9 15:05:12 2009 From: trag at io.com (trag at io.com) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 15:05:12 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > (continued...again...) From: "Jeff Walther" To: cctech at classiccmp.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.17 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal > Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 12:00:48 -0400 > From: Ethan Dicks > I tried to look that up and found it easy to see that the IIfx needed > something odd (I couldn't find specifics), so well done there. It > would be interesting to get the details to see where Apple went off > the rails from the SCSI spec. IIRC, it's a matter of adding a capacitor and maybe a resistor to a regular terminator. There's an Apple Technical Note or similar available somewhere. I probably have a copy squirreled away on my hard drive at home. And I think I remember that they use a somewhat higher value capacitor (so add a smaller one in parallel on an existing terminator) and a lower resistance (so again, add a resistor in parallel). But I could be misremembering. Again, IIRC, the IIfx's SCSI was too noise sensitive. But I've also heard/read that that was only true for the early production run and that the later built machines did not need the funny terminator. >> Then I would only need to find an AUI to RJ-45 doodad >> which is skinny enough to fit into the recessed ports on the IIfx. I >> have an AUI thingy now, but it's too fat to reach the db-15 connector >> on the network card. > > http://lowendmac.com/ii/macintosh-iifx.html > > Are you sure that's an AUI connection? I would expect a Mac of that > vintage to have a DA-15 for video but not Ethernet. Seconded. There were NuBus AUI ethernet cards, but much more common would be a card with AUI and either or both of a BNC and RJ45. If the card only has a DA-15 there's a very good chance that it is a video card. If it has a big 'BT' labeled chip near the connector, it is almost certainly a video card. Jeff Walther From julianskidmore at yahoo.com Thu Jul 9 17:57:29 2009 From: julianskidmore at yahoo.com (Julian Skidmore) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 15:57:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) Message-ID: <625991.12505.qm@web37101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi folks, > Chances are that it's actually a BinHex file, or perhaps one that's been > unpacked, or it's a MacBinary file (later version of BinHex don't > actually generate true hex, so it might still look "binary"). Surely the easiest way is as follows: 1. First, download the .smi disk images from Apple for system 7.5.3. http://www.info.apple.com/support/oldersoftwarelist.html There are 19. 2. All the disk images *are* bin files. If you go here: http://wiki.oldos.org/Mac/68kEmulator You'll find info on Stuffit Expander 5.0 which can expand bin files and copy them to 1.44Mb floppies. You only need the first two steps to start converting disks. -cheers from julz @P PS. Gosh I realise I'm really fortunate, I can ftp straight onto my Performa 400 via its Ethernet card and if I can't do that, I could use a Zip drive. From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Jul 10 01:14:28 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 02:14:28 -0400 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 4:05 PM Subject: Re: Classic mac fun (and some questions) >> > (continued...again...) > From: "Jeff Walther" > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.17 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > X-Priority: 3 (Normal) > Importance: Normal > > >> Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 12:00:48 -0400 >> From: Ethan Dicks > >> I tried to look that up and found it easy to see that the IIfx needed >> something odd (I couldn't find specifics), so well done there. It >> would be interesting to get the details to see where Apple went off >> the rails from the SCSI spec. > > IIRC, it's a matter of adding a capacitor and maybe a resistor to a > regular terminator. There's an Apple Technical Note or similar available > somewhere. I probably have a copy squirreled away on my hard drive at > home. And I think I remember that they use a somewhat higher value > capacitor (so add a smaller one in parallel on an existing terminator) and > a lower resistance (so again, add a resistor in parallel). But I could > be misremembering. > > Again, IIRC, the IIfx's SCSI was too noise sensitive. But I've also > heard/read that that was only true for the early production run and that > the later built machines did not need the funny terminator. Neither of my IIfx systems need that terminator to work. From rescue at hawkmountain.net Fri Jul 10 06:27:47 2009 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 07:27:47 -0400 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A5725B3.2060908@hawkmountain.net> Teo Zenios wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 4:05 PM > Subject: Re: Classic mac fun (and some questions) > > >>> >> (continued...again...) >> From: "Jeff Walther" >> To: cctech at classiccmp.org >> User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.17 >> MIME-Version: 1.0 >> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) >> Importance: Normal >> >> >>> Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 12:00:48 -0400 >>> From: Ethan Dicks >> >>> I tried to look that up and found it easy to see that the IIfx needed >>> something odd (I couldn't find specifics), so well done there. It >>> would be interesting to get the details to see where Apple went off >>> the rails from the SCSI spec. >> >> IIRC, it's a matter of adding a capacitor and maybe a resistor to a >> regular terminator. There's an Apple Technical Note or similar >> available >> somewhere. I probably have a copy squirreled away on my hard drive at >> home. And I think I remember that they use a somewhat higher value >> capacitor (so add a smaller one in parallel on an existing >> terminator) and >> a lower resistance (so again, add a resistor in parallel). But I could >> be misremembering. >> >> Again, IIRC, the IIfx's SCSI was too noise sensitive. But I've also >> heard/read that that was only true for the early production run and that >> the later built machines did not need the funny terminator. > > Neither of my IIfx systems need that terminator to work. I wonder if using an active terminator would work as a substitute for the special Apple terminator ? Anyone know a way to check a terminator to see if it is the special one ? I have one black one that was given to me as a believed IIfx terminator, but it is not an Apple one.... so I don't want to trust what it is merely because it is black. Anyone know how to ID which IIfx systems need the black one, and which ones are of later rev that don't need it ? -- Curt From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Jul 10 06:44:51 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 06:44:51 -0500 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <4A5725B3.2060908@hawkmountain.net> References: <4A5725B3.2060908@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380907100444x3f6d04dfs283a484e29577128@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 6:27 AM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > I wonder if using an active terminator would work as a substitute for the > special Apple terminator ? I'm not sure, but I doubt it. > Anyone know a way to check a terminator to see if it is the special one ? ?I > have one black one that was given to me as a believed IIfx terminator, but > it is > not an Apple one.... so I don't want to trust what it is merely because it > is black. The only identifying information I could find was that it was black. The one I ordered has the normal embossed apple logo on it, but otherwise looks identical to the apple terminators with the centronics connectors at either end. > Anyone know how to ID which IIfx systems need the black one, and which ones > are > of later rev that don't need it ? Everything I read said that it wasn't particular revisions of machines that allowed you to get away without the terminator, rather, it was that certain devices that you plugged into the bus seemed to let you get away with a normal terminator. The black terminator just ensured that you could use anything. brian From dgahling at hotmail.com Fri Jul 10 08:11:14 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (dgahling@hotmail.com ) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 13:11:14 +0000 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) (continued...again...) Message-ID: ---------- Sent via Telus My Email 2.0 -----Original Message----- From: Brian Lanning Sent: 7/10/2009 3:39:27 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Classic mac fun (and some questions) (continued...again...) On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 10:27 PM, Boris Gimbarzevsky wrote: > Use BasiliskII to emulate a Mac under XP. The version that I've found works > best for me is at: > http://gwenole.beauchesne.info//en/projects/basilisk2 Thanks, I'll have a look. WinUAE (the amiga emulator) is great for installing and setting up an OS on a new hard drive prior to sticking it in a machine. > All you need is a copy of your Mac's ROM and an image of a HDD with a Mac > OS. Do I need any unicorn blood? ;-) brian From dbetz at xlisper.com Fri Jul 10 12:31:30 2009 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 13:31:30 -0400 Subject: C64 sound problems Message-ID: <84A28F62-9392-4AC4-B143-9CB0D9DDD813@xlisper.com> I just inherited a Commodore 64, 1541 disk drive, some joysticks and various other related stuff. I've tried the C64 and 1541 by attempting to boot a couple of games that came with the package and it seems that the computer and drive work okay. The games come up and display their start screen. My problem is that the sound doesn't seem to work. The games came up silent when I suspect that they have some sort of music associated with their start screens and a simple Basic program that I typed in to test the sound also fails to produce any output. I know that the SID chips in these machines are prone to failure but I was wondering if there were any other likely causes of a lack of sound. The main reason I was interested in this machine was to play around with the SID so it will be very disappointing to find that it is bad. Is there anything other than a dead SID that can cause sound problems on a C64? Thanks David From jim at photojim.ca Fri Jul 10 12:37:30 2009 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 11:37:30 -0600 Subject: C64 sound problems References: <84A28F62-9392-4AC4-B143-9CB0D9DDD813@xlisper.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Betz" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 11:31 AM Subject: C64 sound problems > Is there anything other than a dead SID that can cause sound problems on > a C64? How are you outputting the audio and video? There is a built-in RF modulator with an RCA connector that outputs VHF to a television, and there is an 8-pin (5-pin on really old C64s) audio/video monitor connector that converts the audio to an RCA plug that plugs into your monitor or an audio system. If you're using one, try the other. If you're using a monitor cable, it's possible you have a bad cable or forgot to plug in the audio connection. The RF connection is designed to connect to an RCA male-to-male cable that plugs into an RF switchbox, but you can use a piece of coax cable with an RCA plug on one end and a standard coax cable connector on the other to plug into most modern television sets. Jim From dgahling at hotmail.com Fri Jul 10 12:38:26 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 13:38:26 -0400 Subject: C64 sound problems In-Reply-To: <84A28F62-9392-4AC4-B143-9CB0D9DDD813@xlisper.com> References: <84A28F62-9392-4AC4-B143-9CB0D9DDD813@xlisper.com> Message-ID: are you using the correct cable plugged into the correct place? this is usually the biggest cause. sound was mono, and you need the proper wiring, and your tv/etc may only accept mono sound on a specific input > From: dbetz at xlisper.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: C64 sound problems > Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 13:31:30 -0400 > > I just inherited a Commodore 64, 1541 disk drive, some joysticks and > various other related stuff. I've tried the C64 and 1541 by attempting > to boot a couple of games that came with the package and it seems that > the computer and drive work okay. The games come up and display their > start screen. My problem is that the sound doesn't seem to work. The > games came up silent when I suspect that they have some sort of music > associated with their start screens and a simple Basic program that I > typed in to test the sound also fails to produce any output. I know > that the SID chips in these machines are prone to failure but I was > wondering if there were any other likely causes of a lack of sound. > The main reason I was interested in this machine was to play around > with the SID so it will be very disappointing to find that it is bad. > Is there anything other than a dead SID that can cause sound problems > on a C64? > > Thanks > David _________________________________________________________________ Internet explorer 8 lets you browse the web faster. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9655582 From dbetz at xlisper.com Fri Jul 10 12:46:41 2009 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 13:46:41 -0400 Subject: C64 sound problems In-Reply-To: References: <84A28F62-9392-4AC4-B143-9CB0D9DDD813@xlisper.com> Message-ID: >> Is there anything other than a dead SID that can cause sound >> problems on a C64? > > How are you outputting the audio and video? There is a built-in RF > modulator with an RCA connector that outputs VHF to a television, > and there is an 8-pin (5-pin on really old C64s) audio/video monitor > connector that converts the audio to an RCA plug that plugs into > your monitor or an audio system. I'm using the 8 pin A/V connector. > > If you're using one, try the other. I haven't tried that yet. Good idea. > > If you're using a monitor cable, it's possible you have a bad cable > or forgot to plug in the audio connection. I have a cable with a DIN connector on one end and four RCA plugs on the other. I've used a multimeter to determine which RCA connector is connected to which pin on the DIN and have used the RCA connector that connects to DIN pin 3 for audio output and the one that connects to DIN pin 4 for composite video output. Is that correct? From dbetz at xlisper.com Fri Jul 10 12:48:09 2009 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 13:48:09 -0400 Subject: C64 sound problems In-Reply-To: References: <84A28F62-9392-4AC4-B143-9CB0D9DDD813@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <2195291E-3FCB-4D39-AAE5-F5D06CF796A9@xlisper.com> > are you using the correct cable plugged into the correct place? > this is usually the biggest cause. > sound was mono, and you need the proper wiring, and your tv/etc may > only accept > mono sound on a specific input I think I'm using the correct cable. The one I'm using for audio connects to pin 3 of the A/V DIN connector. I'm plugging it into a TV that only accepts a mono input and I've verified that the TV sound works correctly by plugging it into an Atari 800xl. From jim at photojim.ca Fri Jul 10 12:57:54 2009 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 11:57:54 -0600 Subject: C64 sound problems References: <84A28F62-9392-4AC4-B143-9CB0D9DDD813@xlisper.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Betz" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 11:46 AM Subject: Re: C64 sound problems > I have a cable with a DIN connector on one end and four RCA plugs on the > other. I've used a multimeter to determine which RCA connector is > connected to which pin on the DIN and have used the RCA connector that > connects to DIN pin 3 for audio output and the one that connects to DIN > pin 4 for composite video output. Is that correct? I can't recall, but I believe the audio RCA plug is either white or red, if memory serves, if you're using a Commodore cable. Jim From dbetz at xlisper.com Fri Jul 10 13:02:28 2009 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 14:02:28 -0400 Subject: C64 sound problems In-Reply-To: References: <84A28F62-9392-4AC4-B143-9CB0D9DDD813@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <0080C0CC-E5C1-4D87-8E41-97EC92B3E853@xlisper.com> >> I have a cable with a DIN connector on one end and four RCA plugs >> on the other. I've used a multimeter to determine which RCA >> connector is connected to which pin on the DIN and have used the >> RCA connector that connects to DIN pin 3 for audio output and the >> one that connects to DIN pin 4 for composite video output. Is that >> correct? > > I can't recall, but I believe the audio RCA plug is either white or > red, if memory serves, if you're using a Commodore cable. I'm not sure if this is a Commodore cable but the plug that connects to DIN pin 3 (audio) is black and the one that connects to DIN pin 4 (composite video) is white. The other two are red connecting to DIN pin 1 (luminance) and yellow connecting to DIN pin 5 (audio in). All of the grounds connect to DIN pin 2. From dbetz at xlisper.com Fri Jul 10 13:43:10 2009 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 14:43:10 -0400 Subject: C64 sound problems In-Reply-To: References: <84A28F62-9392-4AC4-B143-9CB0D9DDD813@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <646249BC-738B-412D-A307-B223A0030120@xlisper.com> > are you using the correct cable plugged into the correct place? > this is usually the biggest cause. > sound was mono, and you need the proper wiring, and your tv/etc may > only accept > mono sound on a specific input One thing I've been wondering about is if this could be caused by problems with the 12v supply feeding the SID. Is there anything else in the C64 that uses that voltage or is it just for the SID? From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 10 14:38:55 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 12:38:55 -0700 Subject: 1ESS call store buffer Message-ID: <4A5798CF.1040108@bitsavers.org> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180376993048 On the chance that the buyer reads this list, it is the call store buffer ferrite sheet memory from a 1ESS switch. Picture on page 2380 of the Bell System Technical Journal, Sep 1964 part 2. From rickb at bensene.com Fri Jul 10 16:21:55 2009 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 14:21:55 -0700 Subject: DEC H207 Core Memory Boards In-Reply-To: <4A5798CF.1040108@bitsavers.org> References: <4A5798CF.1040108@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Hello, all, I recently came into possession of four DEC H207 Core Memory boards. They consist of a quad-width board that has a large number of signal steering diodes, with an attached daughter board that has a 4K x 16 "Planar Memory" array made by Electronic Memories. The boards all have original DEC warranty seals on them, dated June of 1971. I'm curious as to what DEC machine may have used these boards, and what support Flip Chip modules (X & Y drive, Sense/Inhibit, and addressing logic) may have been used with the core stacks to provide a 4Kx16 memory subsystem. Give the 16-bit array size, I assume that it may have been used in a PDP-11, but I suppose (with four wasted bits) it could have been used in some form of PDP-8 system. Any help greatly appreciated. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jul 10 16:19:22 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 14:19:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC H207 Core Memory Boards In-Reply-To: References: <4A5798CF.1040108@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: This is so basic I have to ask why you took the time to write all that up rather than hitting Google. :-) H207 U 4096x16 core stack for 11/15 (on G616 & G617) Zane On Fri, 10 Jul 2009, Rick Bensene wrote: > Hello, all, > > I recently came into possession of four DEC H207 Core Memory boards. > They consist of a quad-width board that has a large number of signal > steering diodes, with an attached daughter board that has a 4K x 16 > "Planar Memory" array made by Electronic Memories. The boards all have > original DEC warranty seals on them, dated June of 1971. > > I'm curious as to what DEC machine may have used these boards, and what > support Flip Chip modules (X & Y drive, Sense/Inhibit, and addressing > logic) may have been used with the core stacks to provide a 4Kx16 memory > subsystem. > > Give the 16-bit array size, I assume that it may have been used in a > PDP-11, but I suppose (with four wasted bits) it could have been used in > some form of PDP-8 system. > > Any help greatly appreciated. > > Rick Bensene > The Old Calculator Museum > http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jul 10 16:33:16 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 17:33:16 -0400 Subject: DEC H207 Core Memory Boards In-Reply-To: References: <4A5798CF.1040108@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 7/10/09, Rick Bensene wrote: > Hello, all, > > I recently came into possession of four DEC H207 Core Memory boards. > They consist of a quad-width board that has a large number of signal > steering diodes, with an attached daughter board that has a 4K x 16 > "Planar Memory" array made by Electronic Memories. The boards all have > original DEC warranty seals on them, dated June of 1971. > > I'm curious as to what DEC machine may have used these boards, and what > support Flip Chip modules (X & Y drive, Sense/Inhibit, and addressing > logic) may have been used with the core stacks to provide a 4Kx16 memory > subsystem. They sound like the right size and date for an 11/20. I have a few (since I have the rescued bits of a cut-up 11/20) and can check what you have against what I have. Can you send me a picture off-list? I'll compare it with what I have, and I can confirm handle numbers for the sense/inhibit and XY boards (they should be on a master module list anyway - they were common in 1971). Unfortunately for me, I wasn't the only one from that company who got some parts. I think I didn't manage to retrieve 100% of the core that was in the three-cabinet 11/20. I am missing at least one core stack that I know of. I was planning on a modern memory replacement if I ever get this machine put back together (it was stripped and the PSUs recycled before it hit the dumpster, and I saved the carcass and as many boards as I could). My ultimate goal for this is to run first RT-11 to check it out, then the early version of UNIX that was recently demonstrated on simh (I still need to come up with an RF-11 emulator; I think I have most of the rest of the hardware that's required). > Give the 16-bit array size, I assume that it may have been used in a > PDP-11, but I suppose (with four wasted bits) it could have been used in > some form of PDP-8 system. Probably not. There are 4Kx12 planes for the PDP-8 (I don't know the number off the top of my head) and it's not the same as what was used in the PDP-11. Cores cost too much to "waste" 25% of them. -ethan From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Jul 10 17:02:53 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 15:02:53 -0700 Subject: DEC H207 Core Memory Boards References: <4A5798CF.1040108@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4A57BA8E.38A06399@cs.ubc.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On 7/10/09, Rick Bensene wrote: > > Give the 16-bit array size, I assume that it may have been used in a > > PDP-11, but I suppose (with four wasted bits) it could have been used in > > some form of PDP-8 system. > > Probably not. There are 4Kx12 planes for the PDP-8 (I don't know the > number off the top of my head) and it's not the same as what was used > in the PDP-11. Cores cost too much to "waste" 25% of them. While the use of the H207 has apparently been determined, out of curiousity was there ever any ECC core memory for the PDP-8?, it might have have had a width of 16 or 17 bits. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jul 10 18:43:52 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 19:43:52 -0400 Subject: DEC H207 Core Memory Boards In-Reply-To: <4A57BA8E.38A06399@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4A5798CF.1040108@bitsavers.org> <4A57BA8E.38A06399@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On 7/10/09, Brent Hilpert wrote: > While the use of the H207 has apparently been determined, out of curiousity was > there ever any ECC core memory for the PDP-8?, it might have have had a width > of 16 or 17 bits. I have never seen ECC core for any DEC machine (but don't take that as the definitive answer). The PDP-8/L, though, was commonly shipped with parity (there's space in the CPU chassis that's pre-wired for the parity support cards and the slots for the core sense/inhibit wires are wired for 13 bits). It might also be supported in the -8/i, but I'd have to look that up (I know about the -8/L for certain because one of mine arrived with that option populated). -ethan From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jul 10 19:12:43 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 17:12:43 -0700 Subject: HP Calc emulators In-Reply-To: References: <200906272132.10016.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> <4A464947.8080203@brouhaha.com> <20090627113219.W64498@shell.lmi.net> <200906271413.51382.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <20090627170609.E73758@shell.lmi.net> <748ACF7A-C2C2-48A6-8804-247918E8E511@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <4A57D8FB.8000509@brouhaha.com> Lyle Bickley wrote: > If you want to see a "labor of love" in HP Calculator simulation, look at Eric Smith's > "High-Fidelity Calculator Simulator" goodies at: > http://nonpareil.brouhaha.com/ > Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> What Eric has done is truly phenomenal. He *reverse engineered* the >> ROM data *and* the CPU instruction set from the actual calculators >> (according to Eric you can't just read the ROM, you have to execute >> the instructions). Eric's emulations *are* HP calculators in all but >> silicon and plastic. Kevin Schoedel wrote: >> In the case of the 12C, they're the silicon and plastic too. The current >> incarnation runs on Eric's emulator on an ARM I'm a bit late replying do to travel and having to take some time to recover from minor eye surgery. Thanks everyone for the kind words about my projects. There are a few details that I should clarify: The instruction set of the first-generation HP handheld calculators (i.e., HP-35, HP-45, HP-55, HP-70, and HP-80) were documented in US patents, so I didn't have to reverse-engineer that. The HP-65 adds some additional instructions, and several other people helped with reverse-engineering of those. The instruction set of the "Nut" processor used in the 41C family, 10C, 11C, 12C, 15C, and 16C, was published by the PPC and CHHU user groups, along with some internal HP documents, so I didn't have to reverse-engineer that instruction set either. I did have to reverse-engineer some other aspects of the Voyager (10C etc.) hardware. I did have to do some reverse engineering of the instruction set used by the two calculator generations between those, the Woodstock, Spice, Topcat, and Sting series, which include the particularly well-known HP-25, HP-67, and HP-97, as there was very little published information on that instruction set. I also had to reverse-engineer the card reader and printer control chips of the HP-67, 97, etc. Thomas Fors LLC and AL Software are using my code under license in their iPhone apps that simulate the 11C, 12C, 15C, 16C, and 41CX. I did provide the 12C object code to HP for their effort to reengineer the 12C on a new ARM-based platform that simulates the original architecture. If you buy an HP 12C that takes two coin cells, it is the new ARM-based design. However, HP did not use my simulation code. I offered their engineer a little advice on details of the simulation, and some sample code for efficient BCD arithmetic, but he wrote all of the code. I was not expecting HP to sell calculator applications for the iPhone. HP's applications are presumably using the same simulation code as their new 12C calculator. Best regards, Eric From onymouse at garlic.com Fri Jul 10 11:00:40 2009 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 09:00:40 -0700 Subject: Re PC/XT/AT Power Supply Fans (was: IBM 5150 PC) In-Reply-To: <4A569858.9010702@oldskool.org> References: <20090708131900.O28532@shell.lmi.net> <4A569858.9010702@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4A5765A8.8030403@garlic.com> There were a lot of Taiwanese PC/XT, AT & tower power supplies with sleeve-bearing fans that would seize up at any time after they were shipped from the factory. If you were lucky, you would hear the fan fail but they often died a silent death, taking the whole power supply with them. If you can, find one with ball-bearing fans or replace the sleeve bearing fan. Personally, I like the US Toyo fans. I have a whole bunch that replaced sleeve bearing fans and are still working fine after 20+ years, some after running 24/7 for several years. There was a some write-up about PC/XT/AT power supply fans on CompuServe's IBMPC forum sometime in the late 80's. Interestingly, soon after that appeared Taiwanese power supplies, all with sleeve bearing fans, started disappearing from retail shelves and pallets of them, new and used, started appearing at surplus stores. For a good while you couldn't find a new power supply with a fan with sleeve bearings on retail shelves. And then the Chicoms started making them. == jd From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 10 19:51:04 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 17:51:04 -0700 Subject: Re PC/XT/AT Power Supply Fans (was: IBM 5150 PC) In-Reply-To: <4A5765A8.8030403@garlic.com> References: , <4A569858.9010702@oldskool.org>, <4A5765A8.8030403@garlic.com> Message-ID: <4A577F88.27012.1EB15887@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Jul 2009 at 9:00, jd wrote: > > There were a lot of Taiwanese PC/XT, AT & tower power supplies with > sleeve-bearing fans that would seize up at any time after they were > shipped from the factory. If you were lucky, you would hear the fan > fail but they often died a silent death, taking the whole power supply > with them. If you can, find one with ball-bearing fans or replace the > sleeve bearing fan. Personally, I like the US Toyo fans. I have a > whole bunch that replaced sleeve bearing fans and are still working > fine after 20+ years, some after running 24/7 for several years. If I had to have a quick-and-dirty rule of thumb for selecting a good fan, it'd be "pick one with a diecast frame". Alternatively,, it'd be "pick a name brand". Your Toyo, Sanyo, Panasonic, Rotron, etc. are all good bets. If you don't mind a slightly higher noise level, an AC-line fan can often be had at a good quality-vs-price point on the surplus market. Papst isn't bad either--you find them on a lot of old commercial equipment. --Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Jul 10 22:42:08 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 22:42:08 -0500 Subject: C64 sound problems In-Reply-To: <84A28F62-9392-4AC4-B143-9CB0D9DDD813@xlisper.com> References: <84A28F62-9392-4AC4-B143-9CB0D9DDD813@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <4A580A10.2050808@oldskool.org> David Betz wrote: > My problem is that the sound doesn't seem to work. Open it up. You may find the SID completely missing. A lot of electronic musicians are buying C64s just to get the SID to use with their own music projects. The now-mute C64s are then given or thrown away. From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jul 11 01:19:25 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 23:19:25 -0700 Subject: HP Calc emulators In-Reply-To: <26436815286A4EC2B6A0615E6FA158FC@xp1800> References: <200906272132.10016.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org><4A464947.8080203@brouhaha.com> <20090627113219.W64498@shell.lmi.net><200906271413.51382.lbickley@bickleywest.com><20090627170609.E73758@shell.lmi.net><748ACF7A-C2C2-48A6-8804-247918E8E511@shiresoft.com> <0d5a01c9f7e9$599f9100$880319bb@desktaba> <26436815286A4EC2B6A0615E6FA158FC@xp1800> Message-ID: <4A582EED.9050100@brouhaha.com> Namens Alexandre Souza wrote: >> Lemmesee if I understood that: The HP12C I buy nowadays >> is an arm core running Eric's emulation?! >> If you buy a 12C and it takes two coin cells (vs. one coin cell, or three button cells), then it uses an Atmel AT91SAM7L128 processor with an ARM7DTMI core, and runs a simulation of the original Nut processor architecture. Rik Bos wrote: > The first versions ran on a saturn processor the same as the HP-71B. > The HP-12 is the only Voyager witch survived the 90th ;-) > No shipping 12C calculator ever used the Saturn processor. The 12C and the rest of the Voyager family were designed before the Saturn was ready, so they used a version of the Nut processor from the HP-41C family, modified to run at a lower voltage. Over the years, they redesigned it for cost reduction several times, but until the recent switch to the Atmel ARM microcontroller, they were using ASICs. HP ACO division (RIP) reportedly did design a Saturn-based 12C, but it was not put into production. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jul 11 01:23:24 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 23:23:24 -0700 Subject: HP Calc emulators In-Reply-To: <20090628132848.L939@shell.lmi.net> References: <200906272132.10016.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> <4A464947.8080203@brouhaha.com> <20090627113219.W64498@shell.lmi.net> <4A4707C1.8060904@brouhaha.com> <20090628132848.L939@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4A582FDC.5030209@brouhaha.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > I still can't comfortably use an iPhone (it needs modifications for HAC), > but the possibilities of porting 16c to Palm OS (Fossil/Abacus!) might > someday mean that I can retire my CFX400s. > Hmmm... I have the Abacus, though I don't routinely use it. I never learned enough about PalmOS to do a port, though. Aside from the iPhone, I'm currently doing development for the Android platform. I'm willing to consider developing for the Blackberry Storm, and maybe the Palm Pre. (Though personally I can't understand why people are excited about the Pre, as it just seems like a "me too" product to me.) Eric From john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 10 03:00:39 2009 From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (John S) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 08:00:39 +0000 Subject: VDU dripped red gunk - CRT delaminating? Message-ID: Hi, I was delving through my pile to get to a monitor, when I found to my horror a sticky pool of red gunk on the floor. It was underneath an old VDU (1982 Pericom 9800), when I took it apart it looked like it had leaked from between the CRT and the faceplate. It had hardened into a thick jelly, I couldn't clean it from inside the case without removing the CRT. My main worry was to clean the floor, the VDU was left inside a warm conservatory. Luckily we have vinyl tiles which cleaned up OK (else would have been a severe drop in WAF). I've read here about CRF delaminating, the CRT now has the tell-tale patterns around the edge, but I don't recall reading about any discharges (of the liquid kind). My other thought is to do with coil windings, but it seemed to be directly under the front of the CRT, not the rear. Any similar stories please? Regards, John _________________________________________________________________ MSN straight to your mobile - news, entertainment, videos and more. http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/147991039/direct/01/ From iamvirtual at gmail.com Fri Jul 10 17:49:41 2009 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 16:49:41 -0600 Subject: DEC H207 Core Memory Boards Message-ID: <2645f9870907101549w6dae029ak905a1e87794e7350@mail.gmail.com> The PDP-11/20 that I have from 1970 has H207 core planes in the main cabinet. The H207 is part of the MM11E subsystem. Here are the boards in my PDP-11/20 cabinets: http://www.iamvirtual.ca/collection/systems/minis/PDP11-20/Boards.html The core plane should be documented in the "MM11-E Core Memory Manual" (see document DEC-11-HR3A-D). I have a copy of the manual if needed. --barrym On 7/10/09, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 7/10/09, Rick Bensene wrote: >> Hello, all, >> >> I recently came into possession of four DEC H207 Core Memory boards. >> They consist of a quad-width board that has a large number of signal >> steering diodes, with an attached daughter board that has a 4K x 16 >> "Planar Memory" array made by Electronic Memories. The boards all have >> original DEC warranty seals on them, dated June of 1971. >> >> I'm curious as to what DEC machine may have used these boards, and what >> support Flip Chip modules (X & Y drive, Sense/Inhibit, and addressing >> logic) may have been used with the core stacks to provide a 4Kx16 memory >> subsystem. > > They sound like the right size and date for an 11/20. I have a few > (since I have the rescued bits of a cut-up 11/20) and can check what > you have against what I have. Can you send me a picture off-list? > I'll compare it with what I have, and I can confirm handle numbers for > the sense/inhibit and XY boards (they should be on a master module > list anyway - they were common in 1971). > > Unfortunately for me, I wasn't the only one from that company who got > some parts. I think I didn't manage to retrieve 100% of the core that > was in the three-cabinet 11/20. I am missing at least one core stack > that I know of. I was planning on a modern memory replacement if I > ever get this machine put back together (it was stripped and the PSUs > recycled before it hit the dumpster, and I saved the carcass and as > many boards as I could). My ultimate goal for this is to run first > RT-11 to check it out, then the early version of UNIX that was > recently demonstrated on simh (I still need to come up with an RF-11 > emulator; I think I have most of the rest of the hardware that's > required). > >> Give the 16-bit array size, I assume that it may have been used in a >> PDP-11, but I suppose (with four wasted bits) it could have been used in >> some form of PDP-8 system. > > Probably not. There are 4Kx12 planes for the PDP-8 (I don't know the > number off the top of my head) and it's not the same as what was used > in the PDP-11. Cores cost too much to "waste" 25% of them. > > -ethan From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Jul 10 19:46:28 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 20:46:28 -0400 Subject: DEC H207 Core Memory Boards Message-ID: <0KML00HKXE4MJ41Q@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> There wass never ECC memory as the logic for that likely exceeds that of the PDP-8. There was 13bit Parity memory (I don't mean the oddball 13bit rom /ram mix device). Allison > >Subject: Re: DEC H207 Core Memory Boards > From: Ethan Dicks > Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 19:43:52 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 7/10/09, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> While the use of the H207 has apparently been determined, out of curiousity was >> there ever any ECC core memory for the PDP-8?, it might have have had a width >> of 16 or 17 bits. > >I have never seen ECC core for any DEC machine (but don't take that as >the definitive answer). The PDP-8/L, though, was commonly shipped >with parity (there's space in the CPU chassis that's pre-wired for the >parity support cards and the slots for the core sense/inhibit wires >are wired for 13 bits). It might also be supported in the -8/i, but >I'd have to look that up (I know about the -8/L for certain because >one of mine arrived with that option populated). > >-ethan From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Jul 11 03:46:30 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 09:46:30 +0100 Subject: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 Message-ID: <040201ca0204$17922960$46b67c20$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Does anyone know if there is a version of TCP/IP around that will install on VMS 5.4. I only have UCX from a 7.3 CD-ROM which I cannot install on 5.4 because it does not have the PRODUCT command. Thanks Rob From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Jul 11 04:32:20 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 06:32:20 -0300 Subject: HP Calc emulators References: <200906272132.10016.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> <4A464947.8080203@brouhaha.com><20090627113219.W64498@shell.lmi.net> <4A4707C1.8060904@brouhaha.com><20090628132848.L939@shell.lmi.net> <4A582FDC.5030209@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <0de901ca020a$c84c69e0$133f19bb@desktaba> > Hmmm... I have the Abacus, though I don't routinely use it. I never > learned enough about PalmOS to do a port, though. Aside from the > iPhone, I'm currently doing development for the Android platform. I'm > willing to consider developing for the Blackberry Storm, and maybe the > Palm Pre. (Though personally I can't understand why people are excited > about the Pre, as it just seems like a "me too" product to me.) I don't know much about palm pre, but I do believe that people want to stick to the ease of use of Palm OS and Palm Desktop. I'm a long time palm and treo user, I just can't see me using anything but it. It is a pleasure to have all data consolidated into palm desktop and sync easily with the telephone. I usually don't buy "new" products (although I was VERY tempted to buy the iPhone, just didn't had the money :)) but I'm very curious about the palm pre. Maybe in two or three years :) From dbetz at xlisper.com Sat Jul 11 06:12:32 2009 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 07:12:32 -0400 Subject: C64 sound problems In-Reply-To: <4A580A10.2050808@oldskool.org> References: <84A28F62-9392-4AC4-B143-9CB0D9DDD813@xlisper.com> <4A580A10.2050808@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4D61B3F6-FE25-4ED1-80B1-6C03A1E94EF6@xlisper.com> > David Betz wrote: >> My problem is that the sound doesn't seem to work. > > > Open it up. You may find the SID completely missing. A lot of > electronic musicians are buying C64s just to get the SID to use with > their own music projects. The now-mute C64s are then given or > thrown away. The SID chip is there. It just isn't producing any output. From JeLynch at stny.rr.com Sat Jul 11 08:16:58 2009 From: JeLynch at stny.rr.com (Jim Lynch) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 09:16:58 -0400 Subject: HP Calc emulators In-Reply-To: <0de901ca020a$c84c69e0$133f19bb@desktaba> References: <200906272132.10016.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> <4A464947.8080203@brouhaha.com> <20090627113219.W64498@shell.lmi.net> <4A4707C1.8060904@brouhaha.com> <20090628132848.L939@shell.lmi.net> <4A582FDC.5030209@brouhaha.com> <0de901ca020a$c84c69e0$133f19bb@desktaba> Message-ID: <20090711131655470.YFBN19321@hrndva-omta03.mail.rr.com> Hi, Creativecreek has a HP RPN software for Palm OS, Windows Mobile and iPhone. http://www.creativecreek.com/mathupro.html I used the CreativeCreek on my Palm device and I continue to use my vintage HP25 and HP34C "built to last" calculators. I recently purchased the anniversary HP-35s. It's ok but does really compare to the original LED models or the HP32Sii LCD model. I continue to be mystified by people that use AOS/ALG (Algebraic mode) calculators. Enjoy. At 05:32 AM 7/11/2009, you wrote: >>Hmmm... I have the Abacus, though I don't routinely use it. I never >>learned enough about PalmOS to do a port, though. Aside from the >>iPhone, I'm currently doing development for the Android platform. I'm >>willing to consider developing for the Blackberry Storm, and maybe the >>Palm Pre. (Though personally I can't understand why people are excited >>about the Pre, as it just seems like a "me too" product to me.) > > I don't know much about palm pre, but I do believe that people > want to stick to the ease of use of Palm OS and Palm Desktop. I'm a > long time palm and treo user, I just can't see me using anything > but it. It is a pleasure to have all data consolidated into palm > desktop and sync easily with the telephone. > > I usually don't buy "new" products (although I was VERY tempted > to buy the iPhone, just didn't had the money :)) but I'm very > curious about the palm pre. Maybe in two or three years :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jim e-mail: JeLynch at stny.rr.com website: www.gluons.us From lproven at gmail.com Sat Jul 11 08:56:10 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 14:56:10 +0100 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <575131af0907110656y328c01a6y5ec823ab72793d43@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/9 : > Seconded. ?There were NuBus AUI ethernet cards, but much more common would > be a card with AUI and either or both of a BNC and RJ45. ? If the card > only has a DA-15 there's a very good chance that it is a video card. ? If > it has a big 'BT' labeled chip near the connector, it is almost certainly > a video card. > > Jeff Walther I don't recall ever seeing a Mac with a standard AUI connector, because it was too similar to an Apple monitor connector. Apple generally used AAUI - Apple AUI. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AAUI -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jul 11 09:26:59 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 07:26:59 -0700 Subject: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 In-Reply-To: <040201ca0204$17922960$46b67c20$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <040201ca0204$17922960$46b67c20$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: At 9:46 AM +0100 7/11/09, Robert Jarratt wrote: >Does anyone know if there is a version of TCP/IP around that will install on >VMS 5.4. I only have UCX from a 7.3 CD-ROM which I cannot install on 5.4 >because it does not have the PRODUCT command. UCX from V7.3 wouldn't install on V5.4 anyway. A better question might be why are you running V5.4? Off the top of my head your best bet will be CMU-IP, but I'm not even sure where you'll find a copy of that (I probably have it, I'm just not sure where as I've still not recovered from moving). I'm not sure how old of VMS CMU-IP supports though. If you were running V5.5-2 you could run Multinet or TCPware. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jul 11 11:22:23 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 12:22:23 -0400 Subject: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 In-Reply-To: References: <040201ca0204$17922960$46b67c20$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Jul 11, 2009, at 10:26 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Does anyone know if there is a version of TCP/IP around that will >> install on >> VMS 5.4. I only have UCX from a 7.3 CD-ROM which I cannot install >> on 5.4 >> because it does not have the PRODUCT command. > > UCX from V7.3 wouldn't install on V5.4 anyway. A better question > might be why are you running V5.4? Off the top of my head your > best bet will be CMU-IP, but I'm not even sure where you'll find a > copy of that (I probably have it, I'm just not sure where as I've > still not recovered from moving). I'm not sure how old of VMS CMU- > IP supports though. If you were running V5.5-2 you could run > Multinet or TCPware. I am pretty sure I was running VMS v5.1 at work when I installed CMU-Tek-IP there. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Jul 11 12:03:09 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 18:03:09 +0100 Subject: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 In-Reply-To: References: <040201ca0204$17922960$46b67c20$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <042701ca0249$7e95b8d0$7bc12a70$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy > Sent: 11 July 2009 15:27 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 > > At 9:46 AM +0100 7/11/09, Robert Jarratt wrote: > >Does anyone know if there is a version of TCP/IP around that will > install on > >VMS 5.4. I only have UCX from a 7.3 CD-ROM which I cannot install on > 5.4 > >because it does not have the PRODUCT command. > > UCX from V7.3 wouldn't install on V5.4 anyway. A better question > might be why are you running V5.4? Off the top of my head your best > bet will be CMU-IP, but I'm not even sure where you'll find a copy of > that (I probably have it, I'm just not sure where as I've still not > recovered from moving). I'm not sure how old of VMS CMU-IP supports > though. If you were running V5.5-2 you could run Multinet or TCPware. > > Zane > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | The reason I am running 5.4 is that I am running it on a MicroVAX II with a DEQNA, and my understanding is that later versions of VMS did not support the DEQNA, only the DELQA. The other reason is that I only have an RD53 in it and may struggle to install later versions for lack of disk space. I know I could net boot it (if I had a DELQA) instead, but I would still prefer it to be capable of standalone operation. I also only have 7MB of working memory (total of 9MB but 2MB are considered bad by VMS) so it may not work well with later versions for lack of memory (not sure though). So to run on a later version I really need to find a DELQA and ideally an RD54, in that case I would happily try the move to 7.3, but may be limited by memory. Regards Rob From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Jul 11 12:09:08 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 10:09:08 -0700 Subject: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 References: <040201ca0204$17922960$46b67c20$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4A58C734.FA47FF54@cs.ubc.ca> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > At 9:46 AM +0100 7/11/09, Robert Jarratt wrote: > >Does anyone know if there is a version of TCP/IP around that will install on > >VMS 5.4. I only have UCX from a 7.3 CD-ROM which I cannot install on 5.4 > >because it does not have the PRODUCT command. > > UCX from V7.3 wouldn't install on V5.4 anyway. A better question > might be why are you running V5.4? Off the top of my head your best > bet will be CMU-IP, but I'm not even sure where you'll find a copy of > that (I probably have it, I'm just not sure where as I've still not > recovered from moving). I'm not sure how old of VMS CMU-IP supports > though. If you were running V5.5-2 you could run Multinet or TCPware. What version of VMS was current around 1986-7? I installed Wollongong TCP/IP on a VMS/microVax at that time (I think it was 1986, but 1987 at the latest), but I don't remember what version of VMS was on the microVax. From arcarlini at iee.org Sat Jul 11 13:06:30 2009 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 19:06:30 +0100 Subject: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 In-Reply-To: <042701ca0249$7e95b8d0$7bc12a70$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <0CBD555C7CC34172AE2C69939107A26B@AntonioPC> cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > > The reason I am running 5.4 is that I am running it on a > MicroVAX II with a DEQNA, and my understanding is that later > versions of VMS did not support the DEQNA, only the DELQA. This is true, for some value of "later". V5.4 sounds about right for the cutoff. > I also only have 7MB of working memory (total of 9MB but 2MB > are considered bad by VMS) so it may not work well with later > versions for lack of memory (not sure though). Are you sure that VMS sees it as bad? If it just doesn't see it at all, that could well be because you need to run AUTOGEN (and maybe ferret out and remove a possible parameter that is limiting the number of physical pages ]it might even be PHYSICALPAGES]). What does SHOW MEM say? Antonio From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jul 11 14:37:01 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 12:37:01 -0700 Subject: HP Calc emulators In-Reply-To: <0de901ca020a$c84c69e0$133f19bb@desktaba> References: <200906272132.10016.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> <4A464947.8080203@brouhaha.com><20090627113219.W64498@shell.lmi.net> <4A4707C1.8060904@brouhaha.com><20090628132848.L939@shell.lmi.net> <4A582FDC.5030209@brouhaha.com> <0de901ca020a$c84c69e0$133f19bb@desktaba> Message-ID: <4A58E9DD.10704@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Hmmm... I have the Abacus, though I don't routinely use it. I never > learned enough about PalmOS to do a port, though. Aside from the > iPhone, I'm currently doing development for the Android platform. I'm > willing to consider developing for the Blackberry Storm, and maybe the > Palm Pre. (Though personally I can't understand why people are excited > about the Pre, as it just seems like a "me too" product to me.) Alexandre Souza wrote: > I don't know much about palm pre, but I do believe that people want > to stick to the ease of use of Palm OS and Palm Desktop. They wouldn't want a Palm Pre, then. AFAICT, it's totally unrelated to PalmOS and Palm Desktop. Eric From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Jul 11 14:49:16 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 16:49:16 -0300 Subject: HP Calc emulators References: <200906272132.10016.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> <4A464947.8080203@brouhaha.com><20090627113219.W64498@shell.lmi.net> <4A4707C1.8060904@brouhaha.com><20090628132848.L939@shell.lmi.net> <4A582FDC.5030209@brouhaha.com><0de901ca020a$c84c69e0$133f19bb@desktaba> <4A58E9DD.10704@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <10cd01ca0260$b9635050$133f19bb@desktaba> >> I don't know much about palm pre, but I do believe that people want >> to stick to the ease of use of Palm OS and Palm Desktop. > They wouldn't want a Palm Pre, then. AFAICT, it's totally unrelated to > PalmOS and Palm Desktop. As I told, Eric, I don't know much about palm pre. But I do believe that palm would be smart enough to create something akin (or at least in the same level of user friendliness) of the former products. I'm not addicted to palm, but I can tell you that Palm Desktop is the "nearest-to-perfect" PIM I've used until today. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jul 11 14:51:39 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 15:51:39 -0400 Subject: HP Calc emulators In-Reply-To: <4A58E9DD.10704@brouhaha.com> References: <200906272132.10016.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> <4A464947.8080203@brouhaha.com><20090627113219.W64498@shell.lmi.net> <4A4707C1.8060904@brouhaha.com><20090628132848.L939@shell.lmi.net> <4A582FDC.5030209@brouhaha.com> <0de901ca020a$c84c69e0$133f19bb@desktaba> <4A58E9DD.10704@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <08EE6498-9C91-4A60-873A-8D05169C4F7D@neurotica.com> On Jul 11, 2009, at 3:37 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> I don't know much about palm pre, but I do believe that people >> want to stick to the ease of use of Palm OS and Palm Desktop. > > They wouldn't want a Palm Pre, then. AFAICT, it's totally > unrelated to PalmOS and Palm Desktop. From what I've read, it runs Linux, but has some sort of PalmOS compatibility API. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jul 11 15:06:40 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 13:06:40 -0700 Subject: HP Calc emulators In-Reply-To: <08EE6498-9C91-4A60-873A-8D05169C4F7D@neurotica.com> References: <200906272132.10016.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> <4A464947.8080203@brouhaha.com><20090627113219.W64498@shell.lmi.net> <4A4707C1.8060904@brouhaha.com><20090628132848.L939@shell.lmi.net> <4A582FDC.5030209@brouhaha.com> <0de901ca020a$c84c69e0$133f19bb@desktaba> <4A58E9DD.10704@brouhaha.com> <08EE6498-9C91-4A60-873A-8D05169C4F7D@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A58F0D0.4030504@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > They wouldn't want a Palm Pre, then. AFAICT, it's totally unrelated > to PalmOS and Palm Desktop. Dave McGuire wrote: > From what I've read, it runs Linux, but has some sort of PalmOS > compatibility API. Yes, but the overall UI of the phone is nothing like PalmOS. It looks like the host software isn't much like Palm Desktop, either. Eric From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Jul 11 15:37:06 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 21:37:06 +0100 Subject: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 In-Reply-To: <0CBD555C7CC34172AE2C69939107A26B@AntonioPC> References: <042701ca0249$7e95b8d0$7bc12a70$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> <0CBD555C7CC34172AE2C69939107A26B@AntonioPC> Message-ID: <042801ca0267$5c833470$15899d50$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of arcarlini at iee.org > Sent: 11 July 2009 19:07 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 > > cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > > > > The reason I am running 5.4 is that I am running it on a > > MicroVAX II with a DEQNA, and my understanding is that later > > versions of VMS did not support the DEQNA, only the DELQA. > > This is true, for some value of "later". V5.4 sounds about > right for the cutoff. > > > I also only have 7MB of working memory (total of 9MB but 2MB > > are considered bad by VMS) so it may not work well with later > > versions for lack of memory (not sure though). > > Are you sure that VMS sees it as bad? If it just doesn't see it > at all, that could well be because you need to run AUTOGEN > (and maybe ferret out and remove a possible parameter that > is limiting the number of physical pages ]it might even be > PHYSICALPAGES]). > > What does SHOW MEM say? > > Antonio The (partial) output from SH MEM is as follows: $ sh mem System Memory Resources on 27-JUN-2009 00:11:06.43 Physical Memory Usage (pages): Total Free In Use Modified Main Memory (9.00Mb) 18432 9748 8171 513 Bad Pages Total Dynamic I/O Errors Static 4095 0 2048 2047 From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jul 11 16:16:05 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 14:16:05 -0700 Subject: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 In-Reply-To: <042701ca0249$7e95b8d0$7bc12a70$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <040201ca0204$17922960$46b67c20$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> <042701ca0249$7e95b8d0$7bc12a70$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: At 6:03 PM +0100 7/11/09, Robert Jarratt wrote: >So to run on a later version I really need to find a DELQA and ideally an >RD54, in that case I would happily try the move to 7.3, but may be limited >by memory. I hate to tell you this, but a MicroVAX/VAXstation 3100 or 4000 series is going to be cheaper to get, and would take 50-pin SCSI disks. The DELQA shouldn't be that much of a problem to get, the RD54 on the other hand is, and is what would likely cost. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jul 11 16:43:22 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 17:43:22 -0400 Subject: Anyone ever see a real KE-11A? (arithmetic peripheral for the PDP-11/20) Message-ID: Hi, All, With the recent discussion of old PDP-11 core, I was reading over Warren Toomey's excellent description of piecing together the most ancient version of PDP-11 UNIX known, and dreaming of the day when I get my PDP-11/20 restored. I am missing, to my knowledge so far, two critical elements to getting the v1 UNIX kernel (and v2 userland) running on real hardware - an RF-11 and a KE-11A. I was figuring I'd have to make a hardware RF-11 emulator or tweak the code in such a way that some other device could be made to work in its place. The KE-11A seems to me to be a harder thing to replace with an alternative. I've read the manual on bitsavers and know the modules it's made of, but I was hoping to find a picture somewhere just to get a visual idea of its compexity. I know the general design of a number of 1970-ish DEC items, but mostly, I've treated Unibus devices as black-boxes - Unibus goes in, Unibus comes out, and in the middle stuff happens that does things. I guess I've been fortunate in that I've never had to do component-level repair of devices of that era (as opposed to lots of experience with older and newer gear). I've done lots of pre-OMNIBUS stuff, some OMNIBUS stuff, and lots of Unibus and Qbus single-card devices. The specific place I have little experience is with Unibus whole-backplane-era devices. The few that I've used worked when I plugged them in. So I'm not ever expecting to run across a loose KE-11A in the wild, so I have to consider what it would take to make one from scratch. Fortunately, it's a peripheral, not a processor option, so it's not festooned with attachments into the CPU itself (unlike, say, a PDP-8 EAE). I have lots of experience with making and debugging Unibus peripherals (COMBOARDs, among others), so I don't find that to be an insurmountable obstacle. I'm nowhere close to starting any sort of construction - I'm just hoping to find a photograph for now. Long before I'd start any sort of KE-11A project, I'd want to find a way to power up my three-BA11-11/20 (no authentic PSUs at the moment - those were harvested before I got the machine) and get it running. I'm expecting to be using XXDP and RT-11 to confirm that it works before I move on (fortunately, it's easy to drop peripherals like an RX11 on an 11/20 so I can import test programs from floppy or papertape as I debug any problems). Any pointers (in addition to bitsavers) on the KE11A would be much appreciated. I plan to tear into the changes made in simh to see how it works from a software standpoint, but the manual does have some good descriptions already. Thanks for any assistance, -ethan From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Jul 11 18:15:41 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 00:15:41 +0100 Subject: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 In-Reply-To: References: <040201ca0204$17922960$46b67c20$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> <042701ca0249$7e95b8d0$7bc12a70$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <042f01ca027d$83f94740$8bebd5c0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy > Sent: 11 July 2009 22:16 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 > > At 6:03 PM +0100 7/11/09, Robert Jarratt wrote: > >So to run on a later version I really need to find a DELQA and ideally > an > >RD54, in that case I would happily try the move to 7.3, but may be > limited > >by memory. > > I hate to tell you this, but a MicroVAX/VAXstation 3100 or 4000 > series is going to be cheaper to get, and would take 50-pin SCSI > disks. The DELQA shouldn't be that much of a problem to get, the > RD54 on the other hand is, and is what would likely cost. > > Zane > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | I already have some 3100s (VAXstation and MicroVAX). I don't have any 4000s except for some VLCs. I just really wanted to have a MicroVAX II and I am actually very happy that it works as well as it does, a DELQA or an RD54 would just be a bonus. Thanks Rob From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Jul 11 19:01:26 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 17:01:26 -0700 Subject: Anyone ever see a real KE-11A? (arithmetic peripheral for the PDP-11/20) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jul 11, 2009, at 2:43 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I'm nowhere close to starting any sort of construction - I'm just > hoping to find a photograph for now. Long before I'd start any sort > of KE-11A project, I'd want to find a way to power up my > three-BA11-11/20 (no authentic PSUs at the moment - those were > harvested before I got the machine) and get it running. I'm expecting > to be using XXDP and RT-11 to confirm that it works before I move on > (fortunately, it's easy to drop peripherals like an RX11 on an 11/20 > so I can import test programs from floppy or papertape as I debug any > problems). > > Any pointers (in addition to bitsavers) on the KE11A would be much > appreciated. I plan to tear into the changes made in simh to see how > it works from a software standpoint, but the manual does have some > good descriptions already. > There were 2 versions of the KE11A AFAIK. The version (which is what I have) is a complete system unit (4 slot) backplane. There's another version that is a single SBC (quad) card. I *think* I have all of the docs for the version of the KE11A that I have. TTFN - Guy From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jul 11 19:58:43 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 20:58:43 -0400 Subject: Anyone ever see a real KE-11A? (arithmetic peripheral for the PDP-11/20) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7/11/09, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > There were 2 versions of the KE11A AFAIK. I had no idea. > The version (which is what I have) is a complete system unit (4 slot) backplane. Right. That's the one I'm aware of and found docs on Bitsavers for. That would be in the style of the 11/20. > There's another version that is a single SBC (quad) card. Interesting. I wonder if _that_ might be more findable. I'll have to grub around on module lists for it... I found the KE11-B, M7840. ISTR it's software/register compatible with the KE11-A (from what I've dug up so far). I wonder how hard that would be to find. > I *think* I have all of the docs for the version of the KE11A that I have. Good to know. -ethan From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Jul 11 21:01:50 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 19:01:50 -0700 Subject: Anyone ever see a real KE-11A? (arithmetic peripheral for the PDP-11/20) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2D9F8551-E3B8-45EB-9E42-8574F3783073@shiresoft.com> On Jul 11, 2009, at 5:58 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > >> There's another version that is a single SBC (quad) card. > > Interesting. I wonder if _that_ might be more findable. I'll have to > grub around on module lists for it... > > I found the KE11-B, M7840. ISTR it's software/register compatible > with the KE11-A (from what I've dug up so far). I wonder how hard that > would be to find. Ahh, yes. That's the "other" version. It's certainly more likely to be around given that it's just one board. I have no ideal how many of these DEC produced though. TTFN - Guy From oldcomputers at oldcomputers.net Sat Jul 11 18:54:24 2009 From: oldcomputers at oldcomputers.net (Sysop) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 16:54:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: For sale: IBM 5103 printer - 1975? Message-ID: <21043.58886.qm@web110604.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> IBM printer for the IBM 5100 "portable" and later systems. Type: dot matrix Condition: unknown Location: Twin Falls, Idaho Contact Suzanne if interested: Suzanne Crow From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sun Jul 12 05:03:22 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 12:03:22 +0200 (CEST) Subject: For sale: IBM 5103 printer - 1975? In-Reply-To: <21043.58886.qm@web110604.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <21043.58886.qm@web110604.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Jul 2009, Sysop wrote: > IBM printer for the IBM 5100 "portable" and later systems. There's a 5103 for the 5100, and there's a 5103 for the 5110/5120. The two models have slightly different bus signals, and they are not interchangeable. Christian From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 12 09:06:19 2009 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 15:06:19 +0100 Subject: Eurocard cases. Message-ID: <4A59EDDB.9030909@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Hi group, Over the last few months I've been working on a clone of an old british home computer (Acorn Atom), on a series of eurocards, 3 at the moment. My problem is I'm looking for an enclosure for the eurocards, I have found a couple however they are not quite big enough, I figure some of the people on here might know where I can get such a beast from. I need to be able to house the current 3 cards plus a possible 4th. Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jul 12 11:30:34 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 09:30:34 -0700 Subject: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 In-Reply-To: <042f01ca027d$83f94740$8bebd5c0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <040201ca0204$17922960$46b67c20$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> <042701ca0249$7e95b8d0$7bc12a70$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> <042f01ca027d$83f94740$8bebd5c0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: At 12:15 AM +0100 7/12/09, Robert Jarratt wrote: >I already have some 3100s (VAXstation and MicroVAX). I don't have any 4000s >except for some VLCs. I just really wanted to have a MicroVAX II and I am >actually very happy that it works as well as it does, a DELQA or an RD54 >would just be a bonus. The VLC is actually my favorite VAX, I love how small it is. :-) Instead of a RD54 you might want to consider a different disk interface that lets you use ESDI or SCSI disks. It could very well be a cheaper alternative to the RD54, unless you get lucky. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun Jul 12 11:47:22 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 18:47:22 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Deze advertentie mag u niet missen! Message-ID: <20090712164722.4CA622AAA4@marktplaats.nl> Beste cctalk, Rik Bos wil u graag op de hoogte brengen van een advertentie op Marktplaats.nl. Bekijk de advertentie door op de onderstaande link te klikken. http://verzamelen.marktplaats.nl/elektronische-apparatuur/254213816-wang-700c-calculator-rechenmaschine-rekenmachine-computer.html Loopt de link niet geheel door? Kopieer dan de twee delen naar de adresbalk in uw browser. Commentaar van: Rik Bos --- Wang 700C calculator in the Netherlands. I'm not the seller but I know he ships worldwide. Rik --- Echt bijna alles is te koop op Marktplaats.nl. Zoek hier naar vergelijkbare producten via de onderstaande link. http://kopen.marktplaats.nl/search.php?q=wang+700C+calculator+rechenmaschine+rekenmachine+computer Met vriendelijke groet, Het Marktplaats team. http://www.marktplaats.nl From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jul 12 13:30:35 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 11:30:35 -0700 Subject: For sale: IBM 5103 printer - 1975? In-Reply-To: References: <21043.58886.qm@web110604.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A5A2BCB.7010805@brouhaha.com> Christian Corti wrote: > There's a 5103 for the 5100, and there's a 5103 for the 5110/5120. The > two models have slightly different bus signals, and they are not > interchangeable. Are you certain? I've used a 5103 model 11 (80 cps) on both a 5100 and a 5110. I haven't tried the model 12 (120 cps), and I haven't tried either printer on the 5120, but I don't see any indication that they shouldn't work. Which bus signals are different? There are other 5103 models that are intended for other IBM computers not in the 51xx line, and those won't work on the 5100, 5110, or 5120. Eric From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jul 12 15:21:52 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 21:21:52 +0100 Subject: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 In-Reply-To: References: <040201ca0204$17922960$46b67c20$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> <042701ca0249$7e95b8d0$7bc12a70$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> <042f01ca027d$83f94740$8bebd5c0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <045801ca032e$661e4840$325ad8c0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > The VLC is actually my favorite VAX, I love how small it is. :-) > > Instead of a RD54 you might want to consider a different disk > interface that lets you use ESDI or SCSI disks. It could very well > be a cheaper alternative to the RD54, unless you get lucky. > > Zane > > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | Yes I like the VLC for its size too but I think I have broken two VLC PSUs possibly because I put in disks that consume too much power for the PSU. The PSUs just click on and off about once a second. Funny you should mention ESDI. The chap I got the MicroVAX II off also gave me a separate enclosure containing 4 ESDI disks, it is apparently something created by US Design Corporation as a third party storage expansion, it uses a proprietary quad height board in the MicroVAX II. I have not taken the time to try it out yet. I had not considered a SCSI interface and I will look into it because that would be so much better (although it would feel a bit less authentic). Regards Rob From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jul 12 21:41:32 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 19:41:32 -0700 Subject: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 In-Reply-To: <045801ca032e$661e4840$325ad8c0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <040201ca0204$17922960$46b67c20$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> <042701ca0249$7e95b8d0$7bc12a70$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> <042f01ca027d$83f94740$8bebd5c0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> <045801ca032e$661e4840$325ad8c0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: At 9:21 PM +0100 7/12/09, Robert Jarratt wrote: >Yes I like the VLC for its size too but I think I have broken two VLC PSUs >possibly because I put in disks that consume too much power for the PSU. The >PSUs just click on and off about once a second. The bearings on the fans in my VLC's PSU are going out, and the PSU on the BA353 I have for it is just plain dead. As a result my DECnet area router has migrated from that to a 4000/60 with a BA350. >Funny you should mention ESDI. The chap I got the MicroVAX II off also gave >me a separate enclosure containing 4 ESDI disks, it is apparently something >created by US Design Corporation as a third party storage expansion, it uses >a proprietary quad height board in the MicroVAX II. I have not taken the >time to try it out yet. > >I had not considered a SCSI interface and I will look into it because that >would be so much better (although it would feel a bit less authentic). Well, in that case, I'd really recommend going with the ESDI, it would definitely be authentic, plus it sounds like you have all the bits and pieces that you need. I have a Webster WQESD/04, it's one of my favorite Q-Bus boards, as it is a very nice ESDI controller. One of the reasons I like it is because you can partition a hard drive up so that it appears to be separate hard drives. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From vp at drexel.edu Sun Jul 12 23:07:59 2009 From: vp at drexel.edu (vp) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 07:07:59 +0300 Subject: Original IBM PL/I manuals Message-ID: I am about to throw out a bunch of old IBM DOS/VSE manuals (late 70s early 80s for System 370, so when it says DOS it does NOT mean MS/DOS ;-). If anybody wants them they are free for local pick up or you pay shipping. Note that they'll be shipped from Athens, Greece. A PL/I Primer - Student Text SC28-6808-1 IBM System/370 Principles of Operation GA22-7000-8 DOS PL/I Optimizing Compiler: Programmer's Guide SC33-0008-2 DOS PL/I Optimizing Compiler: Execution Logic SC33-0019-1 DOS PL/I Resident Library: Program Logic LY33-6011-1 DOS PL/I Transient Library: Program Logic LY33-6012-1 (2 copies) DOS PL/I Optimizing Compiler: Program Logic LY33-6010-1 **vp From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jul 13 00:49:36 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 01:49:36 -0400 Subject: Original IBM PL/I manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A5ACAF0.4070201@gmail.com> vp wrote: > I am about to throw out a bunch of old IBM DOS/VSE manuals (late 70s > early 80s > for System 370, so when it says DOS it does NOT mean MS/DOS ;-). > If anybody wants them they are free for local pick up or you pay shipping. > > Note that they'll be shipped from Athens, Greece. Damn. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jul 13 00:57:13 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 01:57:13 -0400 Subject: Original IBM PL/I manuals In-Reply-To: <4A5ACAF0.4070201@gmail.com> References: <4A5ACAF0.4070201@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jul 13, 2009, at 1:49 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> I am about to throw out a bunch of old IBM DOS/VSE manuals (late >> 70s early 80s >> for System 370, so when it says DOS it does NOT mean MS/DOS ;-). >> If anybody wants them they are free for local pick up or you pay >> shipping. >> Note that they'll be shipped from Athens, Greece. > > Damn. Yeah, my thoughts exactly! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 13 01:06:33 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 23:06:33 -0700 Subject: Original IBM PL/I manuals In-Reply-To: <4A5ACAF0.4070201@gmail.com> References: , <4A5ACAF0.4070201@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A5A6C79.727.2A1EE999@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Jul 2009 at 1:49, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Damn. > > Peace... Sridhar Are you looking for such? I have GC28-8201-3, the PL/I Language Reference Manual F for OS/360. Not doing me any good; same for several other DOS/360 language manuals. I'd assumed that IBM keeps these things in their archives. --Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jul 12 07:19:50 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 08:19:50 -0400 Subject: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 Message-ID: <0KMO00F204W35LP9@vms173017.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 > From: > Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 19:06:30 +0100 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: >> >> The reason I am running 5.4 is that I am running it on a >> MicroVAX II with a DEQNA, and my understanding is that later >> versions of VMS did not support the DEQNA, only the DELQA. > >This is true, for some value of "later". V5.4 sounds about >right for the cutoff. V5 was the cutoff for DEQNA, specifically it was DEQNA is unsupported and DELQA was supported. That really ment that if you ran a DEQNA and had problems with it they would tell you get a DELQA. It'also meant the code to run DEQNA was still there and it should work but to expect no software updates for that device and that device did run at reduced performance. I don't believe the driver itse;f was deleted till later possibly V6. Also the DEQNA was prone to failure, so if the system doesn't see it it may be cause it is dead. >> I also only have 7MB of working memory (total of 9MB but 2MB >> are considered bad by VMS) so it may not work well with later >> versions for lack of memory (not sure though). V5 or later works in 6 but very poorly. It should not be hard to find working ram to increase that. It could also be the over the top connector has failed. >Are you sure that VMS sees it as bad? If it just doesn't see it >at all, that could well be because you need to run AUTOGEN >(and maybe ferret out and remove a possible parameter that >is limiting the number of physical pages ]it might even be >PHYSICALPAGES]). It's possible but less likely. >What does SHOW MEM say? That would tell us something. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jul 12 07:21:49 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 08:21:49 -0400 Subject: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 Message-ID: <0KMO00A5S4ZFFJZ9@vms173013.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 > From: Brent Hilpert > Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 10:09:08 -0700 > To: General at invalid.domain, "Discussion at invalid.domain":On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts > >"Zane H. Healy" wrote: >> >> At 9:46 AM +0100 7/11/09, Robert Jarratt wrote: >> >Does anyone know if there is a version of TCP/IP around that will install on >> >VMS 5.4. I only have UCX from a 7.3 CD-ROM which I cannot install on 5.4 >> >because it does not have the PRODUCT command. >> >> UCX from V7.3 wouldn't install on V5.4 anyway. A better question >> might be why are you running V5.4? Off the top of my head your best >> bet will be CMU-IP, but I'm not even sure where you'll find a copy of >> that (I probably have it, I'm just not sure where as I've still not >> recovered from moving). I'm not sure how old of VMS CMU-IP supports >> though. If you were running V5.5-2 you could run Multinet or TCPware. > >What version of VMS was current around 1986-7? I installed Wollongong TCP/IP on >a VMS/microVax at that time (I think it was 1986, but 1987 at the latest), but >I don't remember what version of VMS was on the microVax. In that time frams it would be MicroVMS a version of VMS4.7, V5 was later. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jul 12 07:25:51 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 08:25:51 -0400 Subject: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 Message-ID: <0KMO001DG564DYY8@vms173013.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 > From: "Robert Jarratt" > Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 00:15:41 +0100 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy >> Sent: 11 July 2009 22:16 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: RE: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 >> >> At 6:03 PM +0100 7/11/09, Robert Jarratt wrote: >> >So to run on a later version I really need to find a DELQA and ideally >> an >> >RD54, in that case I would happily try the move to 7.3, but may be >> limited >> >by memory. >> If the Memory is at least 12MB and there are TWO RD54s than 7.3 is possibe using a DELQA. It will run poorly. >> I hate to tell you this, but a MicroVAX/VAXstation 3100 or 4000 >> series is going to be cheaper to get, and would take 50-pin SCSI >> disks. The DELQA shouldn't be that much of a problem to get, the >> RD54 on the other hand is, and is what would likely cost. You, got that right. RD54s will be scarce as their working life was maybe 4-5 years max and shelf life is likely exceeded by now. I know that as I sitll have 4 running, for the moment. Allison >> Zane >> >> >> -- >> | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >> | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >> | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | >> +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >> | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >> | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | >> | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > >I already have some 3100s (VAXstation and MicroVAX). I don't have any 4000s >except for some VLCs. I just really wanted to have a MicroVAX II and I am >actually very happy that it works as well as it does, a DELQA or an RD54 >would just be a bonus. > >Thanks > >Rob From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jul 12 11:51:25 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 12:51:25 -0400 Subject: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 Message-ID: <0KMO009VGHGQ7MK7@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 > From: "Zane H. Healy" > Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 09:30:34 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >At 12:15 AM +0100 7/12/09, Robert Jarratt wrote: >>I already have some 3100s (VAXstation and MicroVAX). I don't have any 4000s >>except for some VLCs. I just really wanted to have a MicroVAX II and I am >>actually very happy that it works as well as it does, a DELQA or an RD54 >>would just be a bonus. > >The VLC is actually my favorite VAX, I love how small it is. :-) > >Instead of a RD54 you might want to consider a different disk >interface that lets you use ESDI or SCSI disks. It could very well >be a cheaper alternative to the RD54, unless you get lucky. > >Zane > I'd not olly say cheaper, but then you will not be limited to 153MB. when yo consider that V5.4 eats the 153MB about 80% a 1gb drive is very attractive. Last I looked (it been a while) a SCSI adaptor such as CMD is 4-500$ and suitable SCSI drives are cheap. Allison > > >-- >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >| MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From iamvirtual at gmail.com Sun Jul 12 20:59:59 2009 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 19:59:59 -0600 Subject: RSTS-11 distribution? Message-ID: <2645f9870907121859w576c9844jf81e452a174d8ca6@mail.gmail.com> I am looking for RSTS-11 circa 1972 to install on my PDP-11/10 machine. I am more interested in a "historically correct" rather than "more useable" system. I have a PDP-11/10 with 32kw core memory and an RK05 disk drive. My goal is to load RSTS-11 on this machine. I have scoured the internet, including rsts.org and Bitsavers, but I have not come up with an installable distribution. My plan is to use Ersatz-11 or simh to prep a virtual RK05 disk. When I am happy with the setup, I will transfer the binary disk image to my real RK05. I wrote a program that allows a binary disk image to be transferred via a serial port (I will release the source once I am successful in getting the machine running). My hope is that I can find a distribution (virtual tape, virtual disk, etc.) that I can use to install my OS. I am looking to learn and understanding the process so that I can become self-sufficient. Any ideas where to begin? --barrym From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jul 13 02:50:18 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 08:50:18 +0100 Subject: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 In-Reply-To: <0KMO00F204W35LP9@vms173017.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0KMO00F204W35LP9@vms173017.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <046501ca038e$921e2950$b65a7bf0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > V5 was the cutoff for DEQNA, specifically it was DEQNA is unsupported > and DELQA was supported. That really ment that if you ran a DEQNA > and had problems with it they would tell you get a DELQA. It'also > meant > the code to run DEQNA was still there and it should work but to expect > no software updates for that device and that device did run at reduced > performance. I don't believe the driver itse;f was deleted till later > possibly V6. > > Also the DEQNA was prone to failure, so if the system doesn't see it > it may be cause it is dead. > > > >> I also only have 7MB of working memory (total of 9MB but 2MB > >> are considered bad by VMS) so it may not work well with later > >> versions for lack of memory (not sure though). > > V5 or later works in 6 but very poorly. It should not be hard to > find working ram to increase that. > > It could also be the over the top connector has failed. > > > >Are you sure that VMS sees it as bad? If it just doesn't see it > >at all, that could well be because you need to run AUTOGEN > >(and maybe ferret out and remove a possible parameter that > >is limiting the number of physical pages ]it might even be > >PHYSICALPAGES]). > > It's possible but less likely. > > >What does SHOW MEM say? > > That would tell us something. > > > Allison Here is the SH MEM output: $ sh mem System Memory Resources on 27-JUN-2009 00:11:06.43 Physical Memory Usage (pages): Total Free In Use Modified Main Memory (9.00Mb) 18432 9748 8171 513 Bad Pages Total Dynamic I/O Errors Static 4095 0 2048 2047 This suggests to me that the second board is accessible, but only part of it is working. I have the "bad" board in the second slot, if I move it to the first slot then the system sees less contiguous good memory (MDM boots if the bad board is in the second slot, but does not if it is in the first slot). This suggest to me that it is the board itself that is faulty somewhere. Unfortunately I do not have the equipment or expertise to diagnose the problem (although I am willing to learn!). Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jul 13 03:08:18 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 09:08:18 +0100 Subject: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 In-Reply-To: <0KMO009VGHGQ7MK7@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0KMO009VGHGQ7MK7@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <046601ca0391$16092600$421b7200$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > I'd not olly say cheaper, but then you will not be limited to 153MB. > when yo consider that V5.4 eats the 153MB about 80% a 1gb drive is > very attractive. > > Last I looked (it been a while) a SCSI adaptor such as CMD is 4-500$ > and suitable SCSI drives are cheap. > > > Allison > > I beg to differ on that. I have installed VMS 5.4, with DECnet onto my MicroVAX II. Someone has also kindly sent me UCX 1.3 which is now also installed (so the original question has now been answered). All that on an RD53: $ sh dev dua0:/full Disk DUA0:, device type RD53, is online, mounted, file-oriented device, shareable, available to cluster, error logging is enabled. Error count 0 Operations completed 3761 Owner process "" Owner UIC [1,1] Owner process ID 00000000 Dev Prot S:RWED,O:RWED,G:RWED,W:RWED Reference count 61 Default buffer size 512 Total blocks 138672 Sectors per track 17 Total cylinders 1020 Tracks per cylinder 8 Volume label "MICRO1VMS54" Relative volume number 0 Cluster size 3 Transaction count 136 Free blocks 54528 Maximum files allowed 17334 Extend quantity 5 Mount count 1 Mount status System Cache name "_DUA0:XQPCACHE" Extent cache size 64 Maximum blocks in extent cache 5452 File ID cache size 64 Blocks currently in extent cache 3105 Quota cache size 0 Maximum buffers in FCP cache 120 Volume status: subject to mount verification, file high-water marking, write- through caching enabled. As for SCSI and ESDI controllers, the prices I see on ebay are beyond my hobbyist means. Regards Rob From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jul 13 03:17:41 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 04:17:41 -0400 Subject: Original IBM PL/I manuals In-Reply-To: <4A5A6C79.727.2A1EE999@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4A5ACAF0.4070201@gmail.com> <4A5A6C79.727.2A1EE999@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A5AEDA5.8040907@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 13 Jul 2009 at 1:49, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> Damn. >> >> Peace... Sridhar > > Are you looking for such? I have GC28-8201-3, the PL/I Language > Reference Manual F for OS/360. Not doing me any good; same for > several other DOS/360 language manuals. I usually accept any IBM mainframe-related manuals I can lay my hands on. Yes, I'd love to have them, if you have spares. > I'd assumed that IBM keeps these things in their archives. Yes, they do, but that doesn't do me any good sitting at home, since they don't lend. Peace... Sridhar From mike at brickfieldspark.org Mon Jul 13 04:04:25 2009 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 10:04:25 +0100 Subject: [personal] Eurocard cases. References: <4A59EDDB.9030909@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <001301ca0398$ec283210$961ca8c0@mss.local> Phil, hi. Firstly whre are you located ?, I'm in the UK. How many cards and what length, 160 or 220mm, single or double height ?. I've Eurocard (Schroff ) rack bits here in my works disposal bins and should be able to find enough bits for a half width rack but no case. I presume you have used DIN41612 connectors, will you need the maying halves, I won't have a backplane but should be able to find sockets. Best regards, Mike Hatch Web - www.soemtron.org PDP-7 - www.soemtron.org/pdp7.html Email - mike at soemtron.org Looking for a PDP-7 (some hope!) and an ASR33 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phill Harvey-Smith" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2009 3:06 PM Subject: [personal] Eurocard cases. > Hi group, > > Over the last few months I've been working on a clone of an old british > home computer (Acorn Atom), on a series of eurocards, 3 at the moment. > My problem is I'm looking for an enclosure for the eurocards, I have found > a couple however they are not quite big enough, I figure some of the > people on here might know where I can get such a beast from. I need to be > able to house the current 3 cards plus a possible 4th. > > Cheers. > > Phill. > > -- > Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! > > "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. > > > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Jul 13 04:23:13 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 11:23:13 +0200 (CEST) Subject: For sale: IBM 5103 printer - 1975? In-Reply-To: <4A5A2BCB.7010805@brouhaha.com> References: <21043.58886.qm@web110604.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4A5A2BCB.7010805@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Jul 2009, Eric Smith wrote: > Which bus signals are different? I'm not really certain, but I thought that the differences are the "+External Horizontal Drive" and "+Printer Clock" signals. > There are other 5103 models that are intended for other IBM computers not in > the 51xx line, and those won't work on the 5100, 5110, or 5120. I don't think that these printers are called 5103. They may look similar but should have different model numbers. Christian From lists at databasics.us Mon Jul 13 05:21:04 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 00:21:04 -1000 Subject: Deze advertentie mag u niet missen! In-Reply-To: <20090712164722.4CA622AAA4@marktplaats.nl> References: <20090712164722.4CA622AAA4@marktplaats.nl> Message-ID: <4A5B0A90.8020604@databasics.us> Rik Bos wrote: For those here who are Dutch impaired, a translation of the previous post, which appears below in its original form. ********************************** Dear cctalk, Rik Bos would like to inform you of an advertisement on Marktplaats.nl. Examine the advertisement by clicking on the link below. http://verzamelen.marktplaats.nl/elektronische-apparatuur/254213816-wang-700c-calculator-rechenmaschine-rekenmachine-computer.html Is this link broken on two lines? If so, then copy the two parts to the address bar in your browser. Comment from Rik Bos: --- Wang 700C calculator in the Netherlands. I'm not the seller but I know he ships worldwide. Rik --- Really, you can buy almost everything Marktplaats.nl. Search for similar products by means of the link mentioned below. http://kopen.marktplaats.nl/search.php?q=wang+700C+calculator+rechenmaschine+rekenmachine+computer Kind regards, The Market town team. http://www.marktplaats.nl ********************************** > Beste cctalk, > > Rik Bos wil u graag op de hoogte brengen van een advertentie op Marktplaats.nl. Bekijk de advertentie door op de onderstaande link te klikken. > http://verzamelen.marktplaats.nl/elektronische-apparatuur/254213816-wang-700c-calculator-rechenmaschine-rekenmachine-computer.html > > Loopt de link niet geheel door? Kopieer dan de twee delen naar de adresbalk in uw browser. > > Commentaar van: Rik Bos > --- > Wang 700C calculator in the Netherlands. > I'm not the seller but I know he ships worldwide. > > Rik > --- > > Echt bijna alles is te koop op Marktplaats.nl. Zoek hier naar vergelijkbare producten via de onderstaande link. > http://kopen.marktplaats.nl/search.php?q=wang+700C+calculator+rechenmaschine+rekenmachine+computer > > Met vriendelijke groet, > > > > Het Marktplaats team. > http://www.marktplaats.nl From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jul 13 08:33:16 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 06:33:16 -0700 Subject: Original IBM PL/I manuals In-Reply-To: <4A5A6C79.727.2A1EE999@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4A5ACAF0.4070201@gmail.com> <4A5A6C79.727.2A1EE999@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A5B379C.5010201@bitsavers.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: The program logic manuals are interesting, though we probably already have them at CHM > I'd assumed that IBM keeps these things in their archives. > Doubtful. I have been told there is no archived software inside IBM from earlier than the mid 70's. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jul 13 09:04:55 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 07:04:55 -0700 Subject: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 In-Reply-To: <0KMO009VGHGQ7MK7@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0KMO009VGHGQ7MK7@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: At 12:51 PM -0400 7/12/09, Allison wrote: >I'd not olly say cheaper, but then you will not be limited to 153MB. >when yo consider that V5.4 eats the 153MB about 80% a 1gb drive is >very attractive. > >Last I looked (it been a while) a SCSI adaptor such as CMD is 4-500$ >and suitable SCSI drives are cheap. Which is why I said SCSI or ESDI might be cheaper. Price an RD54. :-( Also take into consideration that the SCSI drives are likely to be more reliable. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jul 12 22:39:06 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 20:39:06 -0700 Subject: Original IBM PL/I manuals In-Reply-To: References: <4A5ACAF0.4070201@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A5AAC5A.1080106@jetnet.ab.ca> So what is the big deal. With out the docs, any software is worthless. I am guessing that if you have the software, and no DOC's a $50..$75 would be a reasonable price to pay for shipping here. *NOTE* just regular air mail here, none of this stupid over night shipping. Ben From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jul 13 09:45:52 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 07:45:52 -0700 Subject: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 In-Reply-To: <046601ca0391$16092600$421b7200$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <0KMO009VGHGQ7MK7@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> <046601ca0391$16092600$421b7200$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: At 9:08 AM +0100 7/13/09, Robert Jarratt wrote: >I beg to differ on that. I have installed VMS 5.4, with DECnet onto my >MicroVAX II. Someone has also kindly sent me UCX 1.3 which is now also >installed (so the original question has now been answered). All that on an >RD53: Please tell me you've backed the system up. >As for SCSI and ESDI controllers, the prices I see on ebay are beyond my >hobbyist means. Geez, what are ESDI controllers going for these days? I just did a search on some my archives, it's been over 9 years since I was selling a bunch. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jul 13 09:56:15 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 10:56:15 -0400 Subject: Original IBM PL/I manuals In-Reply-To: <4A5B379C.5010201@bitsavers.org> References: , <4A5ACAF0.4070201@gmail.com> <4A5A6C79.727.2A1EE999@cclist.sydex.com> <4A5B379C.5010201@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4A5B4B0F.8010604@gmail.com> Al Kossow wrote: >> I'd assumed that IBM keeps these things in their archives. >> > > Doubtful. I have been told there is no archived software inside > IBM from earlier than the mid 70's. Software, perhaps not. Documentation, definitely. Peace... Sridhar From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jul 13 10:15:52 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 08:15:52 -0700 Subject: RSTS-11 distribution? In-Reply-To: <2645f9870907121859w576c9844jf81e452a174d8ca6@mail.gmail.com> References: <2645f9870907121859w576c9844jf81e452a174d8ca6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 7:59 PM -0600 7/12/09, B M wrote: >I am looking for RSTS-11 circa 1972 to install on my PDP-11/10 >machine. I am more interested in a "historically correct" rather than >"more useable" system. > >I have a PDP-11/10 with 32kw core memory and an RK05 disk drive. My >goal is to load RSTS-11 on this machine. I have scoured the internet, >including rsts.org and Bitsavers, but I have not come up with an >installable distribution. What version are you looking for? You've searched more places that I was aware of. I'd not heard of rsts.org, and I don't have anything older than what is at those locations. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jul 13 10:26:32 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 16:26:32 +0100 Subject: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 In-Reply-To: References: <0KMO009VGHGQ7MK7@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> <046601ca0391$16092600$421b7200$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <046f01ca03ce$4e7a61b0$eb6f2510$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > > Please tell me you've backed the system up. > Don't worry, I keep a copy of everything important on a SIMH virtual disk, which is itself backed up. Thanks for asking though :-) Regards Rob From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jul 13 11:33:01 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 09:33:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 In-Reply-To: <046f01ca03ce$4e7a61b0$eb6f2510$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <0KMO009VGHGQ7MK7@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> <046601ca0391$16092600$421b7200$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> <046f01ca03ce$4e7a61b0$eb6f2510$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Jul 2009, Robert Jarratt wrote: >> >> Please tell me you've backed the system up. >> > > Don't worry, I keep a copy of everything important on a SIMH virtual disk, > which is itself backed up. Thanks for asking though :-) I take it that this means you're backing up a MicroVAX II via DECnet to VMS running under SIMH? Or that you simply have copies of everything on a SIMH virtual disk? I'm asking as the RD53's are hidiously unreliable. Never count on it powering back up after you power it down. I would have a copy of a nice VAX/VMS v4.x system disk if I'd had everything setup and done a backup the first time I powered it up. So I'm speaking from personal experience. :-( Zane From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 13 11:48:50 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 09:48:50 -0700 Subject: Original IBM PL/I manuals In-Reply-To: <4A5AEDA5.8040907@gmail.com> References: , <4A5A6C79.727.2A1EE999@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A5AEDA5.8040907@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A5B0302.9313.2C6AF053@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Jul 2009 at 4:17, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I usually accept any IBM mainframe-related manuals I can lay my hands > on. Yes, I'd love to have them, if you have spares. No spares, but what am I going to do with S/360 manuals? Especially stuff like "COBOL DASD macros", written for a time when the DOS COBOL didn't support anything but sequential file access (it'd parse the statements, but not generate any code)--you had to write and link in an assembly-code module to do the work. A curiosity, for certain, but without software or a platform to run it on, worthless to me. I'll put you on my next "bookshelf cleanup" list. --Chuck From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Jul 13 12:16:27 2009 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 13:16:27 -0400 Subject: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 In-Reply-To: References: <0KMO009VGHGQ7MK7@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> <046601ca0391$16092600$421b7200$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4A5B6BEB.9080704@verizon.net> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 9:08 AM +0100 7/13/09, Robert Jarratt wrote: >> I beg to differ on that. I have installed VMS 5.4, with DECnet onto my >> MicroVAX II. Someone has also kindly sent me UCX 1.3 which is now also >> installed (so the original question has now been answered). All that >> on an >> RD53: > > Please tell me you've backed the system up. > >> As for SCSI and ESDI controllers, the prices I see on ebay are beyond my >> hobbyist means. > > Geez, what are ESDI controllers going for these days? I just did a > search on some my archives, it's been over 9 years since I was selling > a bunch. > EDSI and SCSI controllers for Qbus have been high for a while since MFM drives are getting very scarce and expensive. The upside is EDSI and scsi drives are very cheap to near free so the cost of the controller being high is less painful.. also scsi controllers can have more drives.. also nice. Allison > Zane > > > From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jul 13 12:12:47 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 10:12:47 -0700 Subject: For sale: IBM 5103 printer - 1975? In-Reply-To: References: <21043.58886.qm@web110604.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4A5A2BCB.7010805@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4A5B6B0F.5010806@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > There are other 5103 models that are intended for other IBM computers > not in the 51xx line, and those won't work on the 5100, 5110, or 5120. Christian Corti wrote: > I don't think that these printers are called 5103. They may look > similar but should have different model numbers. I wouldn't have thought so either, but some of the 5103 documentation describes 5103 models for other computers. They have different interface electronics inside the printer. I don't have the manuals here, so I can't give the details. Eric From tosteve at yahoo.com Mon Jul 13 12:16:11 2009 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 10:16:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: For sale: Un-used Mac,Apple service parts Message-ID: <633615.61284.qm@web110606.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Contact Asa if interested: --------------------------- We have a large inventory of unused Apple service parts in their original Apple boxes for sale. We would like to sell our entire inventory at a bulk rate or by piece. Below is our inventory list in a .pdf file. http://members.cox.net/stengel/ebay/parts.pdf Sincerely, Asa Greenwood telephone: 303-440-7144 location: Boulder, Colorado email: asagreenwood at gmail.com From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jul 13 12:43:02 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 18:43:02 +0100 Subject: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 In-Reply-To: References: <0KMO009VGHGQ7MK7@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> <046601ca0391$16092600$421b7200$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> <046f01ca03ce$4e7a61b0$eb6f2510$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <047401ca03e1$605f1750$211d45f0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy > Sent: 13 July 2009 17:33 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 > > > > On Mon, 13 Jul 2009, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > >> > >> Please tell me you've backed the system up. > >> > > > > Don't worry, I keep a copy of everything important on a SIMH virtual > disk, > > which is itself backed up. Thanks for asking though :-) > > I take it that this means you're backing up a MicroVAX II via DECnet to > VMS > running under SIMH? Or that you simply have copies of everything on a > SIMH > virtual disk? I'm asking as the RD53's are hidiously unreliable. > Never > count on it powering back up after you power it down. > > I would have a copy of a nice VAX/VMS v4.x system disk if I'd had > everything > setup and done a backup the first time I powered it up. So I'm > speaking > from personal experience. :-( > > Zane There isn't anything vital on the MicroVAX II, everything that is on it came from elsewhere so I can easily recover. You are right about the RD53s though. The one that came with the machine seemed a bit dubious to me but seemed at least to respond in some way (I could start a boot but it would never complete). Then one day it just went offline as if it is not attached at all, I wonder if this is not a mechanical problem but an electronic one in this case? Is there anything that can be done to revive them? Regards Rob From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jul 13 12:46:51 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 10:46:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 In-Reply-To: <047401ca03e1$605f1750$211d45f0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <0KMO009VGHGQ7MK7@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> <046601ca0391$16092600$421b7200$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> <046f01ca03ce$4e7a61b0$eb6f2510$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> <047401ca03e1$605f1750$211d45f0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Jul 2009, Robert Jarratt wrote: > You are right about the RD53s though. The one that came with the machine > seemed a bit dubious to me but seemed at least to respond in some way (I > could start a boot but it would never complete). Then one day it just went > offline as if it is not attached at all, I wonder if this is not a > mechanical problem but an electronic one in this case? Is there anything > that can be done to revive them? Most likely you've run into the sticky pads problem. Hopefully Allison answers this, as I believe she has experience reviving RD53's. IIRC, basically you open the drive up and remove the sticky rubber pads. I really don't remember the details as I went SCSI nearly 10 years ago. Zane From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Jul 13 07:17:20 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 08:17:20 -0400 Subject: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 Message-ID: <0KMP00I81ZFVJNX1@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 > From: "Robert Jarratt" > Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 09:08:18 +0100 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > , > >> I'd not olly say cheaper, but then you will not be limited to 153MB. >> when yo consider that V5.4 eats the 153MB about 80% a 1gb drive is >> very attractive. >> >> Last I looked (it been a while) a SCSI adaptor such as CMD is 4-500$ >> and suitable SCSI drives are cheap. >> >> >> Allison >> >> > >I beg to differ on that. I have installed VMS 5.4, with DECnet onto my >MicroVAX II. Someone has also kindly sent me UCX 1.3 which is now also >installed (so the original question has now been answered). All that on an >RD53: > >$ sh dev dua0:/full > >Disk DUA0:, device type RD53, is online, mounted, file-oriented device, > shareable, available to cluster, error logging is enabled. > > Error count 0 Operations completed >3761 > Owner process "" Owner UIC >[1,1] > Owner process ID 00000000 Dev Prot >S:RWED,O:RWED,G:RWED,W:RWED > Reference count 61 Default buffer size >512 > Total blocks 138672 Sectors per track >17 > Total cylinders 1020 Tracks per cylinder >8 > > Volume label "MICRO1VMS54" Relative volume number >0 > Cluster size 3 Transaction count >136 > Free blocks 54528 Maximum files allowed >17334 > Extend quantity 5 Mount count >1 > Mount status System Cache name >"_DUA0:XQPCACHE" > Extent cache size 64 Maximum blocks in extent cache >5452 > File ID cache size 64 Blocks currently in extent cache >3105 > Quota cache size 0 Maximum buffers in FCP cache >120 > > Volume status: subject to mount verification, file high-water marking, >write- > through caching enabled. > >As for SCSI and ESDI controllers, the prices I see on ebay are beyond my >hobbyist means. > >Regards > >Rob OK, I'm only running three MicroVAXIIs, 7 MicroVAX3100s (2 are m76) and two MicroVAX2000s. FOr OSs I run VMS5.2, 5.44, 7.3 and Ultrix32V4.2. I currently have 4 RD54s and 4 RD53s functional and a few SCSI drives. Maybe the differnce is my copy of 5.44 is is the DEC release from back then when I got the machine (MVII GPX) as part of the severence along with all the paks. With the full DECWindows plus Pathworks RD54 is pretty much full and that with swap and page on a separate disk. Allison From Barry.Moyer at pason.com Mon Jul 13 13:39:05 2009 From: Barry.Moyer at pason.com (Barry Moyer) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 12:39:05 -0600 Subject: RSTS-11 distribution? Message-ID: I would be most grateful for any RSTS-11 version V4 or earlier. The RSTSV4A disk at rsts.org does work, but I am after a distribution to construct an equivalent. I have located tape image files that should contain the distribution, but the tapes are not directly bootable, and I don't know how to get them to play nice with E11 or simh (I have tried both). Once I get a prepared Rk05 disk under the simulators, I can get the disk image onto the real disk. As I mentioned, I want to learn the black art of running my old machine using the distributions that were from the same era (1970 - 1974). Thanks! On Mon Jul 13 10:15:52 CDT 2009, Zane H. Healy wrote: >At 7:59 PM -0600 7/12/09, B M wrote: >>I am looking for RSTS-11 circa 1972 to install on my PDP-11/10 >>machine. I am more interested in a "historically correct" rather than >>"more useable" system. >> >>I have a PDP-11/10 with 32kw core memory and an RK05 disk drive. My >>goal is to load RSTS-11 on this machine. I have scoured the internet, >>including rsts.org and Bitsavers, but I have not come up with an >>installable distribution. > What version are you looking for? You've searched more places that I > was aware of. I'd not heard of rsts.org, and I don't have anything > older than what is at those locations. > > Zane > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From wverish at aol.com Mon Jul 13 13:45:58 2009 From: wverish at aol.com (wverish at aol.com) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 14:45:58 -0400 Subject: MicroVAX 3800 won't boot from hard drive Message-ID: <8CBD2014C1CDCDA-A28-137F@webmail-dg01.sysops.aol.com> My MicroVAX went from booting from DUA0 one day to acting as though the drive does not exist the next.Error code is:?41 DEVASSIGN, DUA0 ?06 HLT INST ?PC = 00000C1A. ? The tape unit seems to be OK, but I don't have a bootable tape to try it with. ?I bought another KFQSA board hoping it would help but it did not. The two drives seem to be spinning, but I don't know their condition. I hope you will take the time to think about what might be wrong. I have been working with Dan Snyder in PA, and he said to try e-mailing your group. Thanking you in advance, Wayne Verish From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jul 13 15:11:38 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 21:11:38 +0100 Subject: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 In-Reply-To: <0KMP00I81ZFVJNX1@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0KMP00I81ZFVJNX1@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <047501ca03f6$22416670$66c43350$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > OK, I'm only running three MicroVAXIIs, 7 MicroVAX3100s (2 are m76) > and two > MicroVAX2000s. FOr OSs I run VMS5.2, 5.44, 7.3 and Ultrix32V4.2. I > currently > have 4 RD54s and 4 RD53s functional and a few SCSI drives. Maybe the > differnce > is my copy of 5.44 is is the DEC release from back then when I got the > machine > (MVII GPX) as part of the severence along with all the paks. With the > full > DECWindows plus Pathworks RD54 is pretty much full and that with swap > and page > on a separate disk. > > > Allison I was careful not to select any options, wary about space, so I did not put DECWindows on and I don't (think) I have Pathworks. I also do not have any layered products on yet, but the most I plan to add is going to be either VAX Pascal or VAX C and maybe FMS, I don't know how much space these are going to take up. At the moment I am just happy that I have it basically working. Any details you have on reviving RD53s and RD54s would be very welcome. Regards Rob From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Jul 13 19:42:36 2009 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 20:42:36 -0400 Subject: Write-only backup media and big archives In-Reply-To: <20090703143240.034A4BA4B78@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20090703143240.034A4BA4B78@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4A5BD47C.50903@compsys.to> >Tim Shoppa wrote: >Not really a mechanical or procedural thing, but a little more >philosophical as I think about data storage not just at home >for classic computing, but at work: > >In the 90's the CD-R and soon after the DVD-R looked pretty ideal >for making "write only" backups of what was then considered large >amounts of data. While not archival in the centuries sense, it >seemed a pretty safe bet that readers would be readily available for >the next 10 or 20 years and I think this bet has turned out well. >I was willing to spend an afternoon buring a dozen or two CD-R's >because they felt "real". > Jerome Fine replies: While I used the RX03 as my backup when I first acquired a DSD 880/8, when I started to use RD53 drives, the TK25 tape media became my choice followed a few years later by the TK70 when I switched to Hitachi DK-515 600 MB ESDI drives along with Sony SMO S-501 Magneto Optical media of 295 MB per side. I probably would have used the CD-R at that point, but I don't think that there was ever any software for use on a PDP-11 which would burn a CD. By the time I had a Windows 98 SE system in 2002, the price of a DVD-R drive and the media had become sufficiently cost effective as well as enough capacity to use and I transferred all previous backups to the DVD-R media. As a matter of confidence, when I backup the file each month for the W98SE system (using GHOST, the 2 GB of storage compresses to less than 1 GB in an image file), I also produce a text file with all of the values of the CRCs for each file on the system (which takes little storage - being less than 1 MB). Then I save the MD5 values for the pair of the files and add that third file the the DVD-R with those MD5 values to ensure that the image file can be independently checked. I also copy the files from the DVD-R back to the hard drive to ensure that the files can be read as well as running the MD5 program on the copy of the file on the hard drive (it actually saves considerable time to run MD5 on the copy of the file on the hard drive rather that producing the MD5 value from the file on the DVD-R). >But today, a "large amount of data" is not a few gigabytes, but >terabytes. Tape libraries with these sorts of capacities do >exist but aren't available at the corner store >and I have a nagging mistrust of tapes that causes me to refer >to them as "write only memory". (I never really ever trusted anything >denser than 1600BPI 9-track!). Burning 2000 CD-R's or even 500 DVD-R's >doesn't seem like a reasonable or useful task to backup a terabyte >hard drive (which today is a fraction the price of the 9 Gig drives of the >mid-90's that was "big storage".) > In addition, anything on a tape was difficult to locate if it was not the first file, aside from the speed of the tape in the first place. As for the TK50, it was so slow under RT-11 on a PDP-11 when comparing the tape file with the original file that I never accepted the TK50 as being appropriate. Also, a 1 TB hard drive would need only 250 DVD-Rs for a fully loaded drive in uncompressed mode and likely only about 100 DVD-Rs for compressed backups. Based on toady's cost for a 1 TB hard drive, that is cost effective, but I agree not at all convenient. On the other hand, the blu-ray drives may become less expensive in the next few years (in the same way that 4.7 GB DVD-R drives became since 2002 when I first started to use a DVD-R drive and media for backups). I suspect that less than 25 blu-ray media would be reasonable to backup a 1 TB hard drive in uncompressed mode and perhaps 10 blu-ray media for compressed backups. If 25 (or 10 media) are still too inconvenient (certainly at present they would cost more), then I would guess that an actual 1 TB drive will remain the better choice. >At the same time, the ubiquitous and available-at-the-corner-store >terabyte-sized USB drives don't feel awfully reliable either. They >are way more convenient and cheap though, and that's my prefered >backup media today. > I don't have that much in the way of files to backup, so I can't say what I would do. >I think I'm falling into the trap of confusing the price of storage >with the value of the information recorded onto the storage. It's >ironic that as disk space has become cheaper and cheaper, we regard >the contents as less worthy of the effort of backup onto reliable >media. > I never confused the cost of the storage with spending hundreds of hours producing a program or the enhancements to a program. In addition, it would never be possible to exactly reproduce a source program if it was ever lost. So backups were always extremely important. >OK, philosophy mode off. The NTSB is gonna be asking me for a few >gigabytes of data next week and that seems easy compared to the >terabytes at home. > As in National Transportation Safety Board? I guess that a DVD-R fits the bill these days. If there are only a few files and they need to be archived for more than a year, I suggest adding the MD5 value as well as advising them to make a few copies and save them at different offsite locations. By the way, how many GBs do you estimate that all of your RT-11 files take at this point? I doubt that my files for RT-11 take more than 20 GB and probably less than 10 GB if I was careful. Certainly, if I eliminated all of the duplicates, the total would be less than 5 GB, maybe even only 2 GB. Since storage has become so inexpensive, it is not worth the effort to check. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Jul 13 22:14:08 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 23:14:08 -0400 Subject: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 Message-ID: <0KMR0015S4YGAYG4@vms173011.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 > From: "Zane H. Healy" > Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 10:46:51 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > >On Mon, 13 Jul 2009, Robert Jarratt wrote: > >> You are right about the RD53s though. The one that came with the machine >> seemed a bit dubious to me but seemed at least to respond in some way (I >> could start a boot but it would never complete). Then one day it just went >> offline as if it is not attached at all, I wonder if this is not a >> mechanical problem but an electronic one in this case? Is there anything >> that can be done to revive them? > >Most likely you've run into the sticky pads problem. Hopefully Allison >answers this, as I believe she has experience reviving RD53's. IIRC, >basically you open the drive up and remove the sticky rubber pads. I really >don't remember the details as I went SCSI nearly 10 years ago. > >Zane > If it spins up then back down and repeats thats a stuck head positioner. When the drive is powered down there is a magnetic retract and at the end of travel there are bumpers that betwen heat and time get sticky. The windup then down is the failure of the heads to move and find servo and it fails. There are two fixes, temprorary is to freeze the drive and sometimes they unstick. Me I open the drive, unstick the heads and reach in to the mech and pull out the goo they stick too. Never had a failure yet and all 6 of my RD53s are salvaged this way and most were opened over 10 years ago (two approaching 15!) and they are well past their MTBF now. I haven't opened any in years since I haven't found more and generally RD53s are more useful to me as spares, swap or for the Qbus pdp 11s I have. Other than that goo problem they were otherwise reliable drives. I also have a boat load of RZ22,23,25, RZ55 and RZ56s in use and a pile of RD52s (quantumn D540s). The RD52s are only 31mb but perfect for swap or RT-11 based systems as they were very fast for their storage size and unkillable. I have better than 12 of the D540s as I use them in CP/M based systems as well. For backup I use the RZxx as backup as they are faster and more reliable than TK50. TO create a new system I do a backup/image to a same size or larger to clone the disk and system. Same for the MFM drives. Old 1gb SCSI Baracuda drives are excellent for MV3100s and anything with SCSI and the run forever. If you going to mess with MFM drives you must have a MicroVAX2000 as its a good RDxx formatter in a box (RqDX3 compatable). If it has decent amount of memory and an RD54 in it they can be fun to play with as they are small and very portable. The alternate is to MOP load VMS to it and use a small 20-40mb disk for local files and swap. With two you can run LAVC! Allison From d_cymbal at hotmail.com Mon Jul 13 22:18:01 2009 From: d_cymbal at hotmail.com (Damien Cymbal) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 23:18:01 -0400 Subject: can anyone help with a visual 1050 rom dump Message-ID: Hi All, I have been working with the folks over at the mess project (http://www.mess.org/) on an emulator for the Visual 1050. It's coming along really well. One thing we are lacking is a rom dump for the keyboard. There is either an 8039 or 8049 in the kb with associated firmware we would like to get a dump of. Also, it would be great if we could collect other versions of the Z80 and 6502 firmware. We currently have dumps rev'd at 1.2 (Z80) and 1.1 (6502). It would be great to get dumps of any other versions. If anybody can help out could you please contact me? Thanks. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Jul 14 05:29:18 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 11:29:18 +0100 Subject: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 In-Reply-To: <0KMR0015S4YGAYG4@vms173011.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0KMR0015S4YGAYG4@vms173011.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <048901ca046d$f2e300f0$d8a902d0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Allison > Sent: 14 July 2009 04:14 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org; cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 > > > > >Subject: RE: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 > > From: "Zane H. Healy" > > Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 10:46:51 -0700 (PDT) > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > > > > > >On Mon, 13 Jul 2009, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > >> You are right about the RD53s though. The one that came with the > machine > >> seemed a bit dubious to me but seemed at least to respond in some > way (I > >> could start a boot but it would never complete). Then one day it > just went > >> offline as if it is not attached at all, I wonder if this is not a > >> mechanical problem but an electronic one in this case? Is there > anything > >> that can be done to revive them? > > > >Most likely you've run into the sticky pads problem. Hopefully > Allison > >answers this, as I believe she has experience reviving RD53's. IIRC, > >basically you open the drive up and remove the sticky rubber pads. I > really > >don't remember the details as I went SCSI nearly 10 years ago. > > > >Zane > > > > If it spins up then back down and repeats thats a stuck head > positioner. > When the drive is powered down there is a magnetic retract and at the > end of travel there are bumpers that betwen heat and time get sticky. > The windup then down is the failure of the heads to move and find servo > and it fails. > > There are two fixes, temprorary is to freeze the drive and sometimes > they unstick. Me I open the drive, unstick the heads and reach in to > the mech and pull out the goo they stick too. Never had a failure yet > and all 6 of my RD53s are salvaged this way and most were opened over > 10 years ago (two approaching 15!) and they are well past their MTBF > now. I haven't opened any in years since I haven't found more and > generally RD53s are more useful to me as spares, swap or for the Qbus > pdp 11s I have. Other than that goo problem they were otherwise > reliable drives. > > I also have a boat load of RZ22,23,25, RZ55 and RZ56s in use and a pile > of > RD52s (quantumn D540s). The RD52s are only 31mb but perfect for swap > or RT-11 > based systems as they were very fast for their storage size and > unkillable. > I have better than 12 of the D540s as I use them in CP/M based systems > as > well. > > For backup I use the RZxx as backup as they are faster and more > reliable than TK50. TO create a new system I do a backup/image to > a same size or larger to clone the disk and system. Same for the > MFM drives. Old 1gb SCSI Baracuda drives are excellent for MV3100s > and anything with SCSI and the run forever. > > > If you going to mess with MFM drives you must have a MicroVAX2000 as > its > a good RDxx formatter in a box (RqDX3 compatable). If it has decent > amount > of memory and an RD54 in it they can be fun to play with as they are > small and very portable. The alternate is to MOP load VMS to it and > use a > small 20-40mb disk for local files and swap. With two you can run > LAVC! > > > Allison > > > Many thanks for the info. I will check the behaviour and then try looking inside the RD53 when I next have some time. I do in fact have a 2000 now, that is where my working RD53 came from in fact. Regards Rob From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 14 07:40:55 2009 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 08:40:55 -0400 Subject: OT: (but could be related) Jay =?windows-1252?Q?Leno=92s_3D_?= =?windows-1252?Q?Printer_Makes_Old_Car_Parts_-_NextEngine_?= =?windows-1252?Q?3D_scanner_and_Dimension_3D_printer_-_Pop?= =?windows-1252?Q?ular_Mechanics?= Message-ID: <4A5C7CD7.2040509@sbcglobal.net> Yeah, I know, it's about cars, but it would be great for replacing switches & such on our babies.... http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/jay_leno_garage/4320759.html -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 08:07:49 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 09:07:49 -0400 Subject: OT: (but could be related) Jay =?windows-1252?Q?Leno=92s_3?= =?windows-1252?Q?D_Printer_Makes_Old_Car_Parts_-_NextEngin?= =?windows-1252?Q?e_3D_scanner_and_Dimension_3D_printer_-_?= =?windows-1252?Q?Popular_Mechanics?= In-Reply-To: <4A5C7CD7.2040509@sbcglobal.net> References: <4A5C7CD7.2040509@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <4A5C8325.8000501@gmail.com> Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > Yeah, I know, it's about cars, but it would be great for replacing > switches & such on our babies.... > > http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/jay_leno_garage/4320759.html I have a small rapid-prototyping setup. The only problem is that it's expensive to run. Peace... Sridhar From feedle at feedle.net Tue Jul 14 10:36:53 2009 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 08:36:53 -0700 Subject: =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?Re:_OT:_=28but_could_be_related=29_Jay_Leno=92s?= =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?_3D_Printer_Makes_Old_Car_Parts_-_NextEngine_3D?= =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?_scanner_and_Dimension_3D_printer_-_Popular_Mec?= =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?hanics?= In-Reply-To: <4A5C7CD7.2040509@sbcglobal.net> References: <4A5C7CD7.2040509@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Jul 14, 2009, at 5:40 AM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > Yeah, I know, it's about cars, but it would be great for replacing > switches & such on our babies.... A lot of the geeks around these parts (Portland, Oregon) are building and running variations of the "reprap" plastic printer hardware. If you have a mind to, the machines can be built pretty cheaply (well under $1,000) and the plastic material is stupid cheap: $50 buys five pounds of plastic, which can make a lifetime of small parts. I've already started making replacement IMSAI switch toggles with one (although they aren't exactly right yet, I'm still working on the design). The downsides to 3D printed objects (especially the ones generated by the homebrew machines) is they are far from perfect and often require a little TLC to look nice. The upside is: if you can draw it in Blender, you can create it. Check out http://thingiverse.com for an idea of what people are doing with home-brew CNC and their ilk. As a personal note: watching the local geekerati playing with these machines feels a lot like watching early home computer hobbyists in the late-1970's playing with Imsais and their ilk. There's the potential for something huge here, you can almost taste it.. once the bugs get worked out. And they're certainly working them out. From mross666 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 14 11:57:24 2009 From: mross666 at hotmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 16:57:24 +0000 Subject: Oddball RP02 / Memorex 660 question - sticky paint In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On cleaning up my RP02, I find that the 'basin' - the sheet metal which lines the cavity in which the disk pack spins - is painted with a dark grey paint which is positively sticky - tacky to the touch. I've never encountered this on a disk drive before. Do people think this is just old, deteriorated paint? Or is it possible that it's intended to be sticky - to trap any particulates which elude the HEPA filter? If so, would that have been factory applied, or a customer 'modification' done in the field? Anyone ever found sticky paint on a removable-pack disk drive before? Thanks Mike http://www.corestore.org _________________________________________________________________ Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 12:27:55 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 13:27:55 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_OT=3A_=28but_could_be_related=29_Jay_Leno=92s_3D_Print?= =?windows-1252?Q?er_Makes_Old_Car_Parts_=2D_NextEngine_3D_scanner_and_Dimension?= =?windows-1252?Q?_3D_printer_=2D_Popular_Mechanics?= In-Reply-To: References: <4A5C7CD7.2040509@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On 7/14/09, C. Sullivan wrote: > A lot of the geeks around these parts (Portland, Oregon) are building and > running variations of the "reprap" plastic printer hardware. I'm part of a group building one in Columbus. We are still at the "gather parts" stage. > I've already started making replacement IMSAI switch toggles with one > (although they aren't exactly right yet, I'm still working on the design). Cool. I look forward to your design. I'd personally want to print replacement PDP-8 and PDP-11 toggles, among other things. > As a personal note: watching the local geekerati playing with these > machines feels a lot like watching early home computer hobbyists in the > late-1970's playing with Imsais and their ilk. There's the potential for > something huge here, you can almost taste it.. once the bugs get worked out. > And they're certainly working them out. I agree. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 14 12:40:08 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 13:40:08 -0400 Subject: =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?Re:_OT:_=28but_could_be_related=29_Jay_Leno=92s?= =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?_3D_Printer_Makes_Old_Car_Parts_-_NextEngine_3D?= =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?_scanner_and_Dimension_3D_printer_-_Popular_Mec?= =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?hanics?= In-Reply-To: References: <4A5C7CD7.2040509@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Jul 14, 2009, at 1:27 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I've already started making replacement IMSAI switch toggles with >> one >> (although they aren't exactly right yet, I'm still working on the >> design). > > Cool. I look forward to your design. I'd personally want to print > replacement PDP-8 and PDP-11 toggles, among other things. ...those dumb little black brackets that blank rack covers in place, the ones that the little nubs break off of? Grrr. I'd love to find a forgotten case of those things. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 15:06:19 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 16:06:19 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_OT=3A_=28but_could_be_related=29_Jay_Leno=92s_3D_Print?= =?windows-1252?Q?er_Makes_Old_Car_Parts_=2D_NextEngine_3D_scanner_and_Dimension?= =?windows-1252?Q?_3D_printer_=2D_Popular_Mechanics?= In-Reply-To: References: <4A5C7CD7.2040509@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On 7/14/09, Dave McGuire wrote: > ...those dumb little black brackets that blank rack covers in place, the > ones that the little nubs break off of? Grrr. I'd love to find a forgotten > case of those things. Oh, yeah. I've got a pile of broken ones in a box in storage (most of the "good" ones are bolted to the face of various racks). If the plastic is amenable to (solvent) welding, it might make sense to turn some replacement stalks on a lathe or to mold them, then drill out the broken plate and weld the fabricated part in the hole. I'm guessing that the parts are either polystyrene or ABS, both of which have solvents. I wouldn't expect just gluing the broken bits back on would work because of lack of mechanical at the break. Perhaps I'd feel differently after making a few things in a RepRap, but the layered construction technique might not be the best method for manufacturing these sorts of brackets since the stress happens (usually) when you want to remove the blank cover from the rack, and this would apply the stress between layers of the printed replacement part. Finding a couple of cases of NOS in a warehouse would be great, but I have to think if it was going to happen, it would have happened in the past 10-20 years. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 14 15:15:09 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 13:15:09 -0700 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_OT:_=28but_could_be_related=29_Jay_Leno=E2=80=99s_3D_Printer_Makes_Old_Car_Parts_-_NextEngine_3D_scanner_and_Dimension_3D_printer_-_P?= In-Reply-To: References: <4A5C7CD7.2040509@sbcglobal.net>, , Message-ID: <4A5C84DD.28110.324E48B2@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Jul 2009 at 16:06, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Oh, yeah. I've got a pile of broken ones in a box in storage (most of > the "good" ones are bolted to the face of various racks). Do you have a picture of these things? I'm used to racks that use cage nuts, screws and cup washers to attach panels. I don't think I can remember seeing any of your items. Thanks, Chuck From hofmanwb at hccnet.nl Tue Jul 14 16:14:42 2009 From: hofmanwb at hccnet.nl (W.B.(Wim) Hofman) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 23:14:42 +0200 Subject: To be thrown away unless.. Message-ID: <4A5CF542.7060301@hccnet.nl> The following equipment is heading for the skip unless somebody wants to save some of it. Location Arnhem, The Netherlands: 1 Compaq SLT/286 luggable, in bag. Faded screen 2 Philips P200T 3 Philips NMS 8245 MSX2 computer. 256K Ram, 720k diskette drive 4 Goldstar FC-200 MSX computer 5 monitor, to be used with 3 or 4 Answers please before Saturday Regards Wim From steve at cosam.org Tue Jul 14 16:19:46 2009 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 23:19:46 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_OT=3A_=28but_could_be_related=29_Jay_Leno=92s_3D_Print?= =?windows-1252?Q?er_Makes_Old_Car_Parts_=2D_NextEngine_3D_scanner_and_Dimension?= =?windows-1252?Q?_3D_printer_=2D_P?= In-Reply-To: <4A5C84DD.28110.324E48B2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4A5C7CD7.2040509@sbcglobal.net> <4A5C84DD.28110.324E48B2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <95838e090907141419j321be917wa4c03a296b9f9502@mail.gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 14 Jul 2009 at 16:06, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Oh, yeah. I've got a pile of broken ones in a box in storage (most of >> the "good" ones are bolted to the face of various racks). > > Do you have a picture of these things? ?I'm used to racks that use > cage nuts, screws and cup washers to attach panels. ?I don't think I > can remember seeing any of your items. I think we're talking about these little s: http://www.cosam.org/images/pdp11-35/filler_bracket.jpg Those two countersunk holes take screws which thread into cage nuts to hold the thing on the front of the rack. The two protrusions plug into holes on the back of the blank/filler panels. What you often see is that the balls come away with the panel when you remove it. I also have a fair few which have been snapped at the screw holes, presumably due to over-tightening. It can take a bit of leg work, but if you're lucky you can find self-tapping screws with nice rounded heads which fit in the holes on the panels. Just trim/file the stump flush with the bracket, drill out a pilot hole and screw in said self-tappers a few turns. These replacement ball joints are much sturdier than the originals! Cheers, -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 16:53:26 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 17:53:26 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_OT=3A_=28but_could_be_related=29_Jay_Leno=92s_3D_Print?= =?windows-1252?Q?er_Makes_Old_Car_Parts_=2D_NextEngine_3D_scanner_and_Dimension?= =?windows-1252?Q?_3D_printer_=2D_P?= In-Reply-To: <4A5C84DD.28110.324E48B2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4A5C7CD7.2040509@sbcglobal.net> <4A5C84DD.28110.324E48B2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 4:15 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 14 Jul 2009 at 16:06, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> Oh, yeah. ?I've got a pile of broken ones in a box in storage (most of >> the "good" ones are bolted to the face of various racks). > > Do you have a picture of these things? ?I'm used to racks that use > cage nuts, screws and cup washers to attach panels. ?I don't think I > can remember seeing any of your items. I went grubbing around on Google and I checked through Bitsavers. I couldn't find any catalog PDFs that might have H960 accessories, but it _must_ be in a handbook somewhere. Everything was in a handbook. Essentially, if you look at the black blank panel covers on a photo like , you can see there are no visible mounting screwheads etc. The white frame is a complex molded part with the black face glued to it. On the left and right edges of the white frame are a series of hollow open-ended cylinders, about 3/8" across, that line up with the holes in the 19" H960 rack. A 10.5" panel has 8 holes, 4 on the left, 4 on the right. What you are meant to do is to use 8 clip nuts to bolt 4 small black plastic bits to the rack semi-permanently. Each plastic bit has 2 screwholes and two plastic studs with knobs on top. The plastic bit is about 1/2" wide, and about 3-4" long. The studs are about 3/4" long, with a shaft diameter about 1/4" and a knob on the end about 3/8" diameter (from memory). When you have new plastic brackets, there are 8 studs that line up with 8 cylinders in the blank plate. You press them on, and the friction between the knobs and the cylinders holds the blank in place. What happens is when you remove them repeatedly, they rarely come off cleanly, and the studs get stressed, eventually leaving one or more knobs in the receiving cylinders of the blank cover plate. The plate will stay on with as few as two surviving studs, but 4 is better. *Some* blank cover plates were meant to be screwed onto peripheral devices with bolts through the black face of the plate, but most commonly, even for, say, a BA-11 Unibus chassis (which frequently had blanks attached to the face, but that stayed attached when the BA-11 was slid in and out of the rack), the blanks are friction-fit to what they are covering up. I took a couple other stabs at finding a good picture that's already online but am coming up dry. Perhaps someone else has a link to a good photo. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 16:56:04 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 17:56:04 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_OT=3A_=28but_could_be_related=29_Jay_Leno=92s_3D_Print?= =?windows-1252?Q?er_Makes_Old_Car_Parts_=2D_NextEngine_3D_scanner_and_Dimension?= =?windows-1252?Q?_3D_printer_=2D_P?= In-Reply-To: <95838e090907141419j321be917wa4c03a296b9f9502@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A5C7CD7.2040509@sbcglobal.net> <4A5C84DD.28110.324E48B2@cclist.sydex.com> <95838e090907141419j321be917wa4c03a296b9f9502@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Steve Maddison wrote: > I think we're talking about these little s: > > ?http://www.cosam.org/images/pdp11-35/filler_bracket.jpg That's what I just tried to describe. Thank you for the nice close-up picture. > It can take a bit of leg work, but if you're lucky you can find > self-tapping screws with nice rounded heads which fit in the holes on > the panels. Just trim/file the stump flush with the bracket, drill out > a pilot hole and screw in said self-tappers a few turns. These > replacement ball joints are much sturdier than the originals! Hmm... I haven't ever tried that, but I can see how it could work. I might be concerned about metal-to-plastic wear on the cover panels from repeated reconfiguration, though. -ethan From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Jul 14 16:58:51 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 22:58:51 +0100 Subject: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 In-Reply-To: <0KMR0015S4YGAYG4@vms173011.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0KMR0015S4YGAYG4@vms173011.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <049c01ca04ce$4709a930$d51cfb90$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > If it spins up then back down and repeats thats a stuck head > positioner. > When the drive is powered down there is a magnetic retract and at the > end of travel there are bumpers that betwen heat and time get sticky. > The windup then down is the failure of the heads to move and find servo > and it fails. > Just checked, that is exactly what is happening, but it only did cycled two (or was it three?) times. I will try opening it up to see if it is the sticky bumpers problem. Has anyone documented the procedure in detail at all? Regards Rob From steve at cosam.org Tue Jul 14 17:17:21 2009 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 00:17:21 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_OT=3A_=28but_could_be_related=29_Jay_Leno=92s_3D_Print?= =?windows-1252?Q?er_Makes_Old_Car_Parts_=2D_NextEngine_3D_scanner_and_Dimension?= =?windows-1252?Q?_3D_printer_=2D_P?= In-Reply-To: References: <4A5C7CD7.2040509@sbcglobal.net> <4A5C84DD.28110.324E48B2@cclist.sydex.com> <95838e090907141419j321be917wa4c03a296b9f9502@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <95838e090907141517n3f0ec628pf82c23dd9044a361@mail.gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Steve Maddison wrote: >> It can take a bit of leg work, but if you're lucky you can find >> self-tapping screws with nice rounded heads which fit in the holes on >> the panels. Just trim/file the stump flush with the bracket, drill out >> a pilot hole and screw in said self-tappers a few turns. These >> replacement ball joints are much sturdier than the originals! > > Hmm... I haven't ever tried that, but I can see how it could work. ?I > might be concerned about metal-to-plastic wear on the cover panels > from repeated reconfiguration, though. Not so much of a problem in my case as I don't often move stuff around. I did think about using a plastic bead, a narrow screw and a bit of tubing as a spacer, but never got the parts together (and I happened to have the nicely-fitting screws lying around). -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 14 17:38:42 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 15:38:42 -0700 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_OT:_=28but_could_be_related=29_Jay_Leno=E2=80=99s_3D_Printer_Makes_Old_Car_Parts_-_NextEngine_3D_scanner_and_Dimension_3D_printer_-_P?= In-Reply-To: References: <4A5C7CD7.2040509@sbcglobal.net>, <95838e090907141419j321be917wa4c03a296b9f9502@mail.gmail.com>, Message-ID: <4A5CA682.22502.32D1B0B6@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Jul 2009 at 17:56, Ethan Dicks wrote: > That's what I just tried to describe. Thank you for the nice close-up > picture. It almost looks as if one could machine something up with some flat bar and some standoffs. Well, there's always Velcro(tm)... This reminds me of the catches used on the rackmount door of HP storage arrays. Nice metal construction, except for the springy part of the catch itself, which is plastic. Bump it the wrong way and it's toast. Strange considering that the back door of an HP rack uses a magnetic catch. --Chuck From mardy at voysys.com Tue Jul 14 18:28:17 2009 From: mardy at voysys.com (Marden P. Marshall) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 19:28:17 -0400 Subject: =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?Re:_OT:_=28but_could_be_related=29_Jay_Leno=92s?= =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?_3D_Printer_Makes_Old_Car_Parts_-_NextEngine_3D?= =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?_scanner_and_Dimension_3D_printer_-_Popular_Mec?= =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?hanics?= In-Reply-To: <4A5C7CD7.2040509@sbcglobal.net> References: <4A5C7CD7.2040509@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <1E78125B-AEAA-49EF-BD7B-43198704DF49@voysys.com> On Jul 14, 2009, at 8:40 AM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > Yeah, I know, it's about cars, but it would be great for replacing > switches & such on our babies.... > > http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/jay_leno_garage/ > 4320759.html > -- > --- Dave Woyciesjes > --- ICQ# 905818 > --- AIM - woyciesjes > --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ > --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ > > "From there to here, > From here to there, > Funny things > are everywhere." > --- Dr. Seuss Cool technology. It has certainly matured over the past few years. Most people can't afford to have their own personal 3-D printer, but there are service bureaus out there that will, for a small fee, take your STL file and convert it into plastic. I found one such outfit, ZoomRP (www.zoomrp.com) that offers quick and relatively inexpensive one-of service with on-line order entry / quotes. Does anyone have any experience / suggestions for any other service bureaus? -Mardy From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Jul 14 19:59:27 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 19:59:27 -0500 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: <4A551929.22261.15517E78@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <575131af0907081721ld39b58h7439d2fe565e326@mail.gmail.com>, <4A551929.22261.15517E78@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A5D29EF.7040801@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I loathed MASM 1.0- > -it was all too possible to generate the wrong code; something that > should never happen with an assembler. How on earth is that possible? I can imagine an assembler generating non-optimal code, but non-FUNCTIONAL code? > A lot of the darling programs are scarcely known now. Harvard > Presentation Graphics, Micrographx Deisgner, Corel Draw, numerous > accounting packages, games... The games are definitely well-known, but I agree with you about some of the applications. I remember a hypertext program called -- I think -- Instant Recall. Every single word you typed into "card" was indexed, so anything could link to anything. Could be memory-resident too. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 22:02:31 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 22:02:31 -0500 Subject: An interesting ebay find and what to do with scsi do-dads Message-ID: <6dbe3c380907142002y8ff5f20w29bb6ec2f5b0e466@mail.gmail.com> I picked up an external scsi case with 5 devices in it. Two plextor cdroms, a zip 250 drive, and most interestingly a 3.5" floppy drive and some sort of memory card reader. This furthers my collection of internal and external almost-useless removable media devices. :-) It was sold as an IBM branded device, although I knew before hand that it wasn't. But there is an IBM sticker on the back of the case that says M/T 1609-F21 and a serial number. Not sure what's up with that. Maybe it's just an asset tag. So what could I attach this to? It has one centronics port on the back, so it must be terminated inside somewhere. I know the cdroms and zip drive would be recognized instantly by an amiga. I'm not sure what the floppy and memory card reader would look like. For example, supposing it's a 1.44mb floppy drive, what format would an amiga try to write to a drive like this? I would think that a disk format is OS dependent. I do have drivers to read fat partitions, so maybe it could read PC floppies. Or maybe since it's high density, it could read/write those 1.76mb amiga format high density floppies... or maybe not since it's scsi and the amiga specific floppy drives tend to be modified in an amiga-only way. I couldn't tell what kind of floppy drive is in there since I didn't completely take it apart, but from the back, it looks like a normal 3.5" floppy drive in a 5.25" scsi 50-pin adapter. Linux would probably autodetect and work with all of them. What would MacOS do? Also, the memory card reader has a slot for a type 1 or 2 pcmcia card. What could I put in this? A pcmcia flash memory drive seems obvious. What else? brian From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 14 22:40:48 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 20:40:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: <4A5D29EF.7040801@oldskool.org> References: , <575131af0907081721ld39b58h7439d2fe565e326@mail.gmail.com>, <4A551929.22261.15517E78@cclist.sydex.com> <4A5D29EF.7040801@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20090714203852.J64836@shell.lmi.net> > > I loathed MASM 1.0- > > -it was all too possible to generate the wrong code; something that > > should never happen with an assembler. On Tue, 14 Jul 2009, Jim Leonard wrote: > How on earth is that possible? I can imagine an assembler generating > non-optimal code, but non-FUNCTIONAL code? Never under-estimate what MICROS~1 is capable of doing! V5.0 was the first one where the papers that came with it could even be CALLED documentation. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jul 14 22:47:03 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 21:47:03 -0600 Subject: An interesting ebay find and what to do with scsi do-dads In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 14 Jul 2009 22:02:31 -0500. <6dbe3c380907142002y8ff5f20w29bb6ec2f5b0e466@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <6dbe3c380907142002y8ff5f20w29bb6ec2f5b0e466 at mail.gmail.com>, Brian Lanning writes: > Also, the memory card reader has a slot for a type 1 or 2 pcmcia card. > What could I put in this? A pcmcia flash memory drive seems obvious. > What else? There's scads of PCMCIA cards out there. Amazon.com has 4 pages of search results for PCMCIA. Firewire, modem, wireless, memory card adapters, etc. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 14 23:25:35 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 21:25:35 -0700 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: <4A5D29EF.7040801@oldskool.org> References: , <4A551929.22261.15517E78@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A5D29EF.7040801@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4A5CF7CF.27449.340F4D4E@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Jul 2009 at 19:59, Jim Leonard wrote: > How on earth is that possible? I can imagine an assembler generating > non-optimal code, but non-FUNCTIONAL code? It happened. Reiviews of MASM 1.0 were scathing, ISTR. But by far, the most fun could be had when MASM simply turned toes up and errored out. I can understand why many used TASM and the like. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 14 23:28:51 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 21:28:51 -0700 Subject: An interesting ebay find and what to do with scsi do-dads In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380907142002y8ff5f20w29bb6ec2f5b0e466@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380907142002y8ff5f20w29bb6ec2f5b0e466@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A5CF893.16568.34124C55@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Jul 2009 at 22:02, Brian Lanning wrote: > For example, supposing it's a 1.44mb floppy drive, what format would an > amiga try to write to a drive like this? I would think that a disk > format is OS dependent. I do have drivers to read fat partitions, so > maybe it could read PC floppies. Or maybe since it's high density, it > could read/write those 1.76mb amiga format high density floppies... or > maybe not since it's scsi and the amiga specific floppy drives tend to > be modified in an amiga-only way. Take a close look at the floppy when you get a chance. It might be one of the Briar technology 20MB flopticals that can also do 1.44MB. I've got one in a Tulin-branded box. --Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Jul 14 06:18:32 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 07:18:32 -0400 Subject: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 Message-ID: <0KMR009UARDRVSM6@vms173011.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 > From: "Robert Jarratt" > Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 21:11:38 +0100 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > , > >> OK, I'm only running three MicroVAXIIs, 7 MicroVAX3100s (2 are m76) >> and two >> MicroVAX2000s. FOr OSs I run VMS5.2, 5.44, 7.3 and Ultrix32V4.2. I >> currently >> have 4 RD54s and 4 RD53s functional and a few SCSI drives. Maybe the >> differnce >> is my copy of 5.44 is is the DEC release from back then when I got the >> machine >> (MVII GPX) as part of the severence along with all the paks. With the >> full >> DECWindows plus Pathworks RD54 is pretty much full and that with swap >> and page >> on a separate disk. >> >> >> Allison > >I was careful not to select any options, wary about space, so I did not put >DECWindows on and I don't (think) I have Pathworks. I also do not have any >layered products on yet, but the most I plan to add is going to be either >VAX Pascal or VAX C and maybe FMS, I don't know how much space these are >going to take up. At the moment I am just happy that I have it basically >working. > >Any details you have on reviving RD53s and RD54s would be very welcome. > the revive thing is restricted to 53s, 54s when they die the best you can hope for is to swap board and HDAs to get a good one...maybe. To do the internal work on RD53s one must be brave as it means opeing the drive and working with tools. Oh and all tools must be demagnetized first. Allison >Regards > >Rob From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Jul 15 05:25:34 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 11:25:34 +0100 Subject: Re PC/XT/AT Power Supply Fans In-Reply-To: <4A577F88.27012.1EB15887@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4A569858.9010702@oldskool.org>, <4A5765A8.8030403@garlic.com> <4A577F88.27012.1EB15887@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A5DAE9E.8000107@philpem.me.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > If I had to have a quick-and-dirty rule of thumb for selecting a good > fan, it'd be "pick one with a diecast frame". As far as diecast fans go, the Papst all-metal ones were (and still are) absolute beasts. Metal frame, metal impeller, and a bloody powerful motor. I've lost oscilloscope probe tips to them while debugging SMPSUs, and gained a number of bruises by catching fingers in the impellers while trying to manoeuvre scope probes into particularly inaccessible spots... They're still making the line-powered versions (115V or 240V -- 8000A/N series for 80mm, 3000 series is 92mm, 4000 series for 120mm) but nearly all the <=120mm DC axials are made entirely of plastic. Not that they're significantly worse quality; the AC units are probably all-metal for safety reasons. If you're on a budget, Sunon fans aren't (too) bad, but tend to be a bit noisy (audibly, not electrically). I don't think they do diecast versions though, it's plastic or nothing. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 06:49:51 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 06:49:51 -0500 Subject: An interesting ebay find and what to do with scsi do-dads In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c380907142002y8ff5f20w29bb6ec2f5b0e466@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380907150449q5d0499c9y489841bbd98403a5@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 10:47 PM, Richard wrote: > There's scads of PCMCIA cards out there. ?Amazon.com has 4 pages of > search results for PCMCIA. ?Firewire, modem, wireless, memory card > adapters, etc. I know there are a lot available, but how would they work in this situation? If I put a pcmcia network card in there, would that even be usable? brian From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 06:51:16 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 06:51:16 -0500 Subject: An interesting ebay find and what to do with scsi do-dads In-Reply-To: <4A5CF893.16568.34124C55@cclist.sydex.com> References: <6dbe3c380907142002y8ff5f20w29bb6ec2f5b0e466@mail.gmail.com> <4A5CF893.16568.34124C55@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380907150451v6c1ebcd8l925fa078ddfdb26e@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 11:28 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Take a close look at the floppy when you get a chance. ?It might be > one of the Briar technology 20MB flopticals that can also do 1.44MB. > I've got one in a Tulin-branded box. >From the back it looks like a garden variety floppy drive. I'll take the whole thing apart when I get home from work tonight to see what's really in there. brian From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Jul 15 06:55:53 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 08:55:53 -0300 Subject: An interesting ebay find and what to do with scsi do-dads References: <6dbe3c380907142002y8ff5f20w29bb6ec2f5b0e466@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <075b01ca0543$e85ee000$951c19bb@desktaba> >I picked up an external scsi case with 5 devices in it. Two plextor Photos? :oD From segin2005 at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 08:34:10 2009 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Kirn Gill) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 09:34:10 -0400 Subject: To be thrown away unless.. In-Reply-To: <4A5CF542.7060301@hccnet.nl> References: <4A5CF542.7060301@hccnet.nl> Message-ID: <4A5DDAD2.6080102@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 W.B.(Wim) Hofman wrote: > The following equipment is heading for the skip unless somebody > wants to save some of it. Location Arnhem, The Netherlands: 1 > Compaq SLT/286 luggable, in bag. Faded screen 2 Philips P200T 3 > Philips NMS 8245 MSX2 computer. 256K Ram, 720k diskette drive 4 > Goldstar FC-200 MSX computer 5 monitor, to be used with 3 or 4 > Answers please before Saturday Regards Wim Have you tried eBay? Set a ridiculously low starting bid, buyer pays shipping. Give it a week, and see if any of it actually sells. Even if only one item sells, it's still worth it; that's one less piece of historic hardware in a landfill somewhere. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkpd2tEACgkQF9H43UytGiYcuQCghKhcaA2y8cM7tEeOTKojxgnF tjMAn2x642l/IWe7Ub+TnXw87JxIIV8l =vB52 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From dave09 at dunfield.com Wed Jul 15 09:51:17 2009 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 09:51:17 -0500 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: <4A5CF7CF.27449.340F4D4E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4A5D29EF.7040801@oldskool.org> Message-ID: >>> I loathed MASM 1.0- >>> -it was all too possible to generate the wrong code; something that >>> should never happen with an assembler. >> How on earth is that possible? I can imagine an assembler generating >> non-optimal code, but non-FUNCTIONAL code? >Never under-estimate what MICROS~1 is capable of doing! >V5.0 was the first one where the papers that came with it could even be >CALLED documentation. Just curious - I don't know if I ever saw a Microsoft branded version of MASM 1.0 - I have the complete IBM "Macro Assembler by Microsoft" package, which is packaged in a pink PC format binder with about an inch thickness of paper - I've saw a lot of products in that era with much worse documentation. The manual states that it's "First Edition (December 1981) and the MASM executable spits out: ----------------------------------------- The IBM Personal Computer MACRO Assembler Version 1.00 (C)Copyright IBM Corp 1981 ----------------------------------------- Is this essentially the same assembler that is being discussed? There are two assemblers in the package, ASM which is without macros and requires 64k and MASM which does support macros and requires 96k - someone scoffed at this, but it seems reasonable to provide a limited version for a very small memory footprint system (many vendors did this in the days of limited memory). It does state that if you have 96k you can run either assembler, so I don't think it has anything to do with needing to architect if differently for different amounts of memory. We used this package a lot in some early PC product development, and I do recall that it was slow and had a number of quirks, but we did produce a lot of working code with it. I also recall that when we upgraded to MASM 4 is was *much* better (in fact I still have it installed and use it from time to time). -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Jul 15 09:20:32 2009 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 10:20:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Warped punched cards In-Reply-To: <755CCB92-5E4F-4054-846A-F8DB0725CE8D@neurotica.com> References: <6dbe3c380907082150s72617873r55ec16bb4e6d0c0b@mail.gmail.com> <755CCB92-5E4F-4054-846A-F8DB0725CE8D@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Yesterday, I assisted a member of our meterology department by running two boxes of punched cards through my reader and saving the data for him: http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/Documation/ I don't know how the boxes were stored, but all of the decks had a severe curve (lengthwise) which made it necessary to unbend them enough to go through the reader. I was only able to read 100 cards or so at a time, or else they would start to jam in the stacker. The job took about 2 hours (read and verify), but I would have been able to complete it in much less than an hour if I could have run complete decks through. Does anyone have any tips for straightening warped cards? The Documation machines will read just about anything, due to their short, straight feed path and vacuum picker mechanism, but being able to flatten out a batch of cards would be preferable. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 09:49:57 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 10:49:57 -0400 Subject: Warped punched cards In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c380907082150s72617873r55ec16bb4e6d0c0b@mail.gmail.com> <755CCB92-5E4F-4054-846A-F8DB0725CE8D@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A5DEC95.1090300@gmail.com> Mike Loewen wrote: > Does anyone have any tips for straightening warped cards? The > Documation machines will read just about anything, due to their short, > straight feed path and vacuum picker mechanism, but being able to > flatten out a batch of cards would be preferable. The last time I had to do this (it was only about 75 cards), I put a metal plate on top of the stacked cards and *gently* steamed them in an autoclave. Peace... Sridhar From rescue at hawkmountain.net Wed Jul 15 10:19:08 2009 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (rescue at hawkmountain.net) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 11:19:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VaxStation 2000 as an MFM formatter (was RE: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4) In-Reply-To: <0KMR0015S4YGAYG4@vms173011.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0KMR0015S4YGAYG4@vms173011.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <59226.67.93.24.222.1247671148.squirrel@www.hawkmountain.net> > > > If you going to mess with MFM drives you must have a MicroVAX2000 as its > a good RDxx formatter in a box (RqDX3 compatable). If it has decent amount > of memory and an RD54 in it they can be fun to play with as they are > small and very portable. The alternate is to MOP load VMS to it and use a > small 20-40mb disk for local files and swap. With two you can run LAVC! > > > Allison > Wasn't there discussion some time back regarding a difference in interleave between the VS2000 and an RQDX3 ? Was that ever determined to be the case ? -- Curt From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 15 10:45:56 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 08:45:56 -0700 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: References: <4A5D29EF.7040801@oldskool.org>, <4A5CF7CF.27449.340F4D4E@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4A5D9744.14923.367E36B3@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jul 2009 at 9:51, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Just curious - I don't know if I ever saw a Microsoft branded > version of MASM 1.0 - I have the complete IBM "Macro Assembler > by Microsoft" package, which is packaged in a pink PC format > binder with about an inch thickness of paper - I've saw a lot > of products in that era with much worse documentation. That's the one I'm talking about. I'm not sure if MS ever sold the 1.0 version as a retail product. > There are two assemblers in the package, ASM which is without > macros and requires 64k and MASM which does support macros and > requires 96k - someone scoffed at this, but it seems reasonable > to provide a limited version for a very small memory footprint > system (many vendors did this in the days of limited memory). > It does state that if you have 96k you can run either assembler, > so I don't think it has anything to do with needing to architect > if differently for different amounts of memory. Correct. ASM was useful if you had the original fully-populated 64K 5150. I found that so limiting, I purchased a Quadram Quadboard shortly thereafter. > We used this package a lot in some early PC product development, > and I do recall that it was slow and had a number of quirks, but > we did produce a lot of working code with it. I also recall that > when we upgraded to MASM 4 is was *much* better (in fact I still > have it installed and use it from time to time). What's remarkable is that MASM 2.x and 3.x versions can be hard to find nowadays. I think 1.0 scared the dickens out of the market for a time. I recall that MS/IBM released a corrective service pack with something over 100 bug fixes. It's interesting that Microsoft's Z80 assembler, M80 was fairly robust--I used it extensively, even later under emulation, even though I also had the Avocet Z80 cross-assembler. Now, if someone would bring the microcontroller assemblers (PIC, AVR) up to the level of MASM 6.x (or even the F level S/360 Assembler, or CDC COMPASS) in terms of flexibility, I could die happy. What's insane is that the current PIC assembler (MPASMWIN) executable is over 8 MB. I know--welcome to the 21st century--nobody writes assembly anymore. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 15 10:49:49 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 08:49:49 -0700 Subject: Warped punched cards In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c380907082150s72617873r55ec16bb4e6d0c0b@mail.gmail.com>, <755CCB92-5E4F-4054-846A-F8DB0725CE8D@neurotica.com>, Message-ID: <4A5D982D.24497.3681C24A@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jul 2009 at 10:20, Mike Loewen wrote: > Does anyone have any tips for straightening warped cards? The > Documation machines will read just about anything, due to their short, > straight feed path and vacuum picker mechanism, but being able to > flatten out a batch of cards would be preferable. This would occasionally happen if a deck was stored in high humidity. A steam iron works well, but can be a slow process. Cheers, Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 11:30:55 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 11:30:55 -0500 Subject: An interesting ebay find and what to do with scsi do-dads In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380907150451v6c1ebcd8l925fa078ddfdb26e@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380907142002y8ff5f20w29bb6ec2f5b0e466@mail.gmail.com> <4A5CF893.16568.34124C55@cclist.sydex.com> <6dbe3c380907150451v6c1ebcd8l925fa078ddfdb26e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A5E043F.6070908@gmail.com> Brian Lanning wrote: > On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 11:28 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Take a close look at the floppy when you get a chance. It might be >> one of the Briar technology 20MB flopticals that can also do 1.44MB. >> I've got one in a Tulin-branded box. > >>From the back it looks like a garden variety floppy drive. I'll take > the whole thing apart when I get home from work tonight to see what's > really in there. Various manufacturers did SCSI<->floppy bridge boards; it's possible there's something like that lurking in there. You'll need OS-specific drivers if that's the case, though - read/write commands are probably standard SCSI (no reason really for them to be otherwise), but board configuration and low-level formatting will be vendor-specific. I've not personally come across an all-in-one floppy drive that has a SCSI rather than floppy interface, although such things existed (as Chuck mentions, they'd often offer a larger capacity - sometimes via different media - as well as 'standard floppy'). Again, I suspect they need OS-specific drivers to make them do anything useful (at least on the format / config side; putting pre-formatted media in there might auto-magically appear like a small SCSI hard disk as far as the OS is concerned) cheers Jules From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Jul 15 11:50:59 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 17:50:59 +0100 Subject: VaxStation 2000 as an MFM formatter (was RE: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4) In-Reply-To: <59226.67.93.24.222.1247671148.squirrel@www.hawkmountain.net> References: <0KMR0015S4YGAYG4@vms173011.mailsrvcs.net> <59226.67.93.24.222.1247671148.squirrel@www.hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <04b501ca056c$6f9086f0$4eb194d0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of rescue at hawkmountain.net > Sent: 15 July 2009 16:19 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: VaxStation 2000 as an MFM formatter (was RE: TCP/IP for VMS > 5.4) > > > > > > > > If you going to mess with MFM drives you must have a MicroVAX2000 as > its > > a good RDxx formatter in a box (RqDX3 compatable). If it has decent > amount > > of memory and an RD54 in it they can be fun to play with as they are > > small and very portable. The alternate is to MOP load VMS to it and > use a > > small 20-40mb disk for local files and swap. With two you can run > LAVC! > > > > > > Allison > > > > Wasn't there discussion some time back regarding a difference in > interleave between the VS2000 and an RQDX3 ? Was that ever determined > to be the case ? > > -- Curt I used a MicroVAX 2000 to format an RD53 just the other day and then put the RD53 into a MicroVAX II with an M7555 controller and it worked fine. I can't say whether that worked by accident or by design, but I got the result I wanted. Regards Rob From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 15 11:51:23 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 09:51:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: References: <4A5D29EF.7040801@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20090715094558.K86366@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 15 Jul 2009, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Just curious - I don't know if I ever saw a Microsoft branded > version of MASM 1.0 - I have the complete IBM "Macro Assembler > by Microsoft" package, which is packaged in a pink PC format > binder with about an inch thickness of paper - I've saw a lot > of products in that era with much worse documentation. Ahh, the days of mimeograph, or even ditto'd pages with a disk in a zip-lock bag! Although IBM sold it as a separate product, several OEMs just bundled it with MS-DOS. > The manual states that it's "First Edition (December 1981) > and the MASM executable spits out: > ----------------------------------------- > The IBM Personal Computer MACRO Assembler > Version 1.00 (C)Copyright IBM Corp 1981 > ----------------------------------------- > Is this essentially the same assembler that is being discussed? Yes > There are two assemblers in the package, ASM which is without > macros and requires 64k and MASM which does support macros and > requires 96k - someone scoffed at this, but it seems reasonable > to provide a limited version for a very small memory footprint > system (many vendors did this in the days of limited memory). > It does state that if you have 96k you can run either assembler, > so I don't think it has anything to do with needing to architect > if differently for different amounts of memory. ASM also had more terse error messages than MASM. No big deal with experience, but frustrating for students. > We used this package a lot in some early PC product development, > and I do recall that it was slow and had a number of quirks, but One real fun item was the avalanche of "Phase Errors" whenever you had a type mismatch with a forward reference. > we did produce a lot of working code with it. I also recall that > when we upgraded to MASM 4 is was *much* better (in fact I still > have it installed and use it from time to time). -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jul 15 12:15:00 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 10:15:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VaxStation 2000 as an MFM formatter (was RE: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4) In-Reply-To: <04b501ca056c$6f9086f0$4eb194d0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <0KMR0015S4YGAYG4@vms173011.mailsrvcs.net> <59226.67.93.24.222.1247671148.squirrel@www.hawkmountain.net> <04b501ca056c$6f9086f0$4eb194d0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Jul 2009, Robert Jarratt wrote: >> Wasn't there discussion some time back regarding a difference in >> interleave between the VS2000 and an RQDX3 ? Was that ever determined >> to be the case ? >> >> -- Curt > > I used a MicroVAX 2000 to format an RD53 just the other day and then put the > RD53 into a MicroVAX II with an M7555 controller and it worked fine. I can't > say whether that worked by accident or by design, but I got the result I > wanted. It definitely works. I suspect Curt's question is with regards to performance. Zane From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Wed Jul 15 12:56:56 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 18:56:56 +0100 Subject: OT: (but could be related) Jay Leno?s 3D Printer Makes Old Car Parts - NextEngine 3D scanner and Dimension 3D printer - Popular Mechanics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <880D82FF-C915-4B6F-9DE3-B206F1969509@microspot.co.uk> Didn't there used to be a problem with 3D printed parts going brittle and breaking when subjected to UV light, like sunlight or fluorescent lamp light? What the world really wants is a 3D printer to print 3D integrated circuits, including cooling ducts -either for cooling fluid or alternatively for (heat) conductive material like copper, or both. Can silicon and other constituents of ICs be accurately sprayed under computer control? From v.slyngstad at verizon.net Wed Jul 15 13:11:46 2009 From: v.slyngstad at verizon.net (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 11:11:46 -0700 Subject: OT: (but could be related) Jay Leno's 3D Printer Makes Old Car Parts - NextEngine 3D scanner and Dimension 3D printer - P In-Reply-To: References: <4A5C7CD7.2040509@sbcglobal.net><4A5C84DD.28110.324E48B2@cclist.sydex.com><95838e090907141419j321be917wa4c03a296b9f9502@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: From: "Ethan Dicks" Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 2:56 PM > On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Steve Maddison wrote: > > I think we're talking about these little s: > > > > http://www.cosam.org/images/pdp11-35/filler_bracket.jpg I have cast those with pretty good success. The way that seemed to work best was to cast the RTV mold with the thing laying as pictured. Then when the RTV sets up, flip it over, and remove the original, exposing the whole whole back. Then fill with the 2-part plastic resin, being careful not to leave air bubbles in the recesses that will form the bulbs. I also like to fill it slightly over-full, so that the back is bulgy, then sand the face that bolts to the rack nice and flat. I run the part over a block of MDF with half-sheet of sandpaper, as the MDF has the nice flat surface I want to end up with on the back of the new part. (Sanding may expose bubbles inside the part, they shouldn't be large enough to compromise the part so you can ignore them.) The bulbs will fatigue the mold as parts are removed, so each mold is probably only good for 6 or 8 good castings. > > It can take a bit of leg work, but if you're lucky you can find > > self-tapping screws with nice rounded heads which fit in the holes on > > the panels. Just trim/file the stump flush with the bracket, drill out > > a pilot hole and screw in said self-tappers a few turns. These > > replacement ball joints are much sturdier than the originals! > > Hmm... I haven't ever tried that, but I can see how it could work. I > might be concerned about metal-to-plastic wear on the cover panels > from repeated reconfiguration, though. I have tried that, and did notice some fatigue of the sockets. Since the sockets looked even harder to repair that the bulbs, I quit using that technique. Vince From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 15 13:40:24 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 14:40:24 -0400 Subject: OT: (but could be related) Jay Leno?s 3D Printer Makes Old Car Parts - NextEngine 3D scanner and Dimension 3D printer - Popular Mechanics In-Reply-To: <880D82FF-C915-4B6F-9DE3-B206F1969509@microspot.co.uk> References: <880D82FF-C915-4B6F-9DE3-B206F1969509@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <05CAF4B8-90B8-45D5-8C99-3093F672BEF9@neurotica.com> On Jul 15, 2009, at 1:56 PM, Roger Holmes wrote: > Didn't there used to be a problem with 3D printed parts going > brittle and breaking when subjected to UV light, like sunlight or > fluorescent lamp light? I'd imagine that has more to do with the material in use than the fact that it's done in 3D. > What the world really wants is a 3D printer to print 3D integrated > circuits, including cooling ducts -either for cooling fluid or > alternatively for (heat) conductive material like copper, or both. > Can silicon and other constituents of ICs be accurately sprayed > under computer control? Not even close to being accurate enough for feature sizes that would be considered useful today. Keep in mind that ICs are *already* "3D" in that there are multiple layers, sometimes lots of them. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From Watzman at neo.rr.com Wed Jul 15 13:59:02 2009 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 14:59:02 -0400 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <68BEAAEBE3C7431D91E067ED9330DDD2@barry> The correct name for what you are [incorrectly] calling a "PCMCIA Card" is a "PC Card". PCMCIA is the name of the organization that owns the trademarks and they changed the name of the CARDS from "PCMCIA cards" to "PC Cards" more than a decade ago (early 1990's), but people just won't let go. The "MC" in PCMCIA stands for "Memory Card", which was [ALL] that they were when they came into existence, but that hasn't been the primary use of these cards in almost 20 years. And the "A" stands for "Association". Neither is appropriate to the cards themselves as they are used today, and "PCMCIA Card" is not in accord with the organization's registered trademarks [They own both the standard and the trademarks, they get to decide the "right" names for them.] PC Cards come in 3 mechanical form factors [thicknesses]: Type I, II and III PC cards also come in two electrical types (unrelated to type I, II or III]: 16-bit 32-bit (aka "Cardbus") A "Cardbus" card is still a PC Card. Note that, electrically, a 16-bit PC card is the laptop equivalent of an ISA card and a 32-bit (or "Cardbus") PC card is the laptop equivalent of a PCI card. You can put any function onto a PC card that a desktop slot of the corresponding type would have supported (and, conversely, you cannot, for example, create a 16-bit PC card USB adapter with USB ports; the necessary resources and data rates don't exist on the ISA bus, a PCI slot is required). 32-bit PC Card slots are generally backwards compatible to 16-bit cards. The reverse is not true. Laptops (and desktop card slots) changed from 16-bit to 32-bit in approximately 1997, about the time of the Pentium [one] 120 to 166 MHz class CPU. From: Richard Subject: Re: An interesting ebay find and what to do with scsi do-dads > Also, the memory card reader has a slot for a type 1 or 2 pcmcia card. > What could I put in this? A pcmcia flash memory drive seems obvious. > What else? There's scads of PCMCIA cards out there. Amazon.com has 4 pages of search results for PCMCIA. Firewire, modem, wireless, memory card adapters, etc. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Jul 15 14:06:36 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 16:06:36 -0300 Subject: To be thrown away unless.. References: <4A5CF542.7060301@hccnet.nl> <4A5DDAD2.6080102@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0b0501ca057f$6c8e96f0$951c19bb@desktaba> >> The following equipment is heading for the skip unless somebody >> wants to save some of it. Location Arnhem, The Netherlands: 1 >> Compaq SLT/286 luggable, in bag. Faded screen 2 Philips P200T 3 >> Philips NMS 8245 MSX2 computer. 256K Ram, 720k diskette drive 4 >> Goldstar FC-200 MSX computer 5 monitor, to be used with 3 or 4 >> Answers please before Saturday Regards Wim Hah! I always get the answers, but never get the original posts!!! I want all the MSX stuff, can you send it to Brazil? Thanks Alexandre From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 14:31:38 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 15:31:38 -0400 Subject: OT: (but could be related) Jay Leno?s 3D Printer Makes Old Car Parts - NextEngine 3D scanner and Dimension 3D printer - Popular Mechanics In-Reply-To: <880D82FF-C915-4B6F-9DE3-B206F1969509@microspot.co.uk> References: <880D82FF-C915-4B6F-9DE3-B206F1969509@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 1:56 PM, Roger Holmes wrote: > Didn't there used to be a problem with 3D printed parts going brittle and > breaking when subjected to UV light, like sunlight or fluorescent lamp > light? That may be specific to the liquid-resin-UV-laser-cured parts (one of several 3D prototyping techniques). RepRap uses extruded molten ABS or other thermoplastic (there are several to choose from with compatible melting points). Unless your base plastic is UV sensitive, there shouldn't be a problem. There's nothing that the 3D printing process adds except bumps and internal layering and such from the process. > What the world really wants is a 3D printer to print 3D integrated circuits, > including cooling ducts -either for cooling fluid or alternatively for > (heat) conductive material like copper, or both. Can silicon and other > constituents of ICs be accurately sprayed under computer control? Accurate computer control aside, melting points are a problem. Just like with building lost wax casting masters, you have to build your parts in order from highest melting point to lowest, or you'll demolish your model as you build it. Silicon has to get pretty hot before it flows. RepRap has successfully printed a simple component of itself - ABS resin base with solder "wires" and real (premade) LEDs and resistors for an end-stop sensor. It's a bit crude, but the melting point of solder combined with the latent heat capacity of a small extrusion did not result in badly deforming or melting the ABS base it was placed on. If 3D printing starts to incorporate circuitry, plastic components like OLEDs and conductive plastic "wires" seem to be more likely to me than adapting molten metal technologies to a thermal extrusion head. -ethan From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Jul 15 14:32:06 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 12:32:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) Message-ID: <738817.53169.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 7/15/09, Barry Watzman wrote: > The correct name for what you are > [incorrectly] calling a "PCMCIA Card" is a > "PC Card". PCMCIA is the name of the organization > that owns the trademarks > and they changed the name of the CARDS from "PCMCIA cards" > to "PC Cards" > more than a decade ago (early 1990's), but people just > won't let go. And here I always thought that PCMCIA stood for "People Can't Memorize Computer Industry Acronyms"... -Ian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 14:36:11 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 15:36:11 -0400 Subject: OT: (but could be related) Jay Leno's 3D Printer Makes Old Car Parts - NextEngine 3D scanner and Dimension 3D printer - P In-Reply-To: References: <4A5C7CD7.2040509@sbcglobal.net> <4A5C84DD.28110.324E48B2@cclist.sydex.com> <95838e090907141419j321be917wa4c03a296b9f9502@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 2:11 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >> > http://www.cosam.org/images/pdp11-35/filler_bracket.jpg > > I have cast those with pretty good success. ?The way that seemed to work > best was to cast the RTV mold with the thing laying as pictured. ?Then when > the RTV sets up, flip it over, and remove the original, exposing the whole > whole back. ?Then ?fill with the 2-part plastic resin, being careful not to > leave air bubbles in the recesses that will form the bulbs. My dad used to do vacuum casting in his home jewelry shop. I doubt he kept his rig when he moved from Ohio to Maine to California, but it's not impossible to make one large enough to hold molds the size of coffee mugs. Finding a bell jar is probably the hardest part. You just need enough vacuum to get the air bubbles to express themselves before the medium sets up, so a pump shouldn't be hard to find. > ?I also like to > fill it slightly over-full, so that the back is bulgy, then sand the face > that bolts to the rack nice and flat. Good tip. > The bulbs will fatigue the mold as parts are removed, so each mold is > probably only good for 6 or 8 good castings. I can believe that (and it's probably simpler to use a semi-disposable RTV mold than make a proper two-part mold). -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 14:42:08 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 15:42:08 -0400 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <738817.53169.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <738817.53169.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Wed, 7/15/09, Barry Watzman wrote: >> The correct name for what you are >> [incorrectly] calling a "PCMCIA Card" is a >> "PC Card". > > And here I always thought that PCMCIA stood for "People Can't Memorize Computer Industry Acronyms"... I was at an Amiga user group meeting when the A600 came out. Some younger guy (my age) was talking about PCMCIA cards since the A600 has a slot, and one of the older members asked him to "speak English" and "what does all that mean, anyway?" She pounced on him when he couldn't regurgitate "Personal Computer Memory Card Industry Association" on the spot ("how do you expect us to know what you are talking about when you use words you don't even know what they mean?!?") Lots of acronymitis back then. Still a lot now, but users have had more time to absorb some of it. -ethan From jim at photojim.ca Wed Jul 15 14:45:20 2009 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 13:45:20 -0600 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) References: <738817.53169.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mr Ian Primus" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 1:32 PM Subject: Re: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) >> The correct name for what you are >> [incorrectly] calling a "PCMCIA Card" is a >> "PC Card". > > And here I always thought that PCMCIA stood for "People Can't Memorize > Computer Industry Acronyms"... Heh. I understood (perhaps incorrectly) that PCMCIA cards were always 16-bit cards, and PC Cards could be either 16 or 32 (but were almost always 32). In other words, PCMCIA cards were PC Cards, but PC Cards weren't always PCMCIA cards. Jim From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Jul 15 14:46:02 2009 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 15:46:02 -0400 Subject: Cleaning an LK201 Keyboard Message-ID: <4A5E31FA.7060307@compsys.to> I just cleaned an LK201 keyboard. It was actually quite clean with only a few stains and a bit of dust. I used a baby wipe since it seemed to be the most useful in terms of being able to eliminate the dust as well as the very minor stains. Has anyone any other method or suggestions? One problem is that there is one sticky key - PF4 in this case. It is not a problem if I use a quick sharp hit of 4 to 5 times the normal force. When just a gentle to firm force is used, it often sticks and sometimes even goes into multiple repeats. Hitting it firmly again frees up the key and it releases. The problem might have been caused during the cleaning if some of the baby wipe is stuck within the key release mechanism - I tend to remember that the PF4 key was not sticking when I tested it before cleaning. Any suggestions? Jerome Fine From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 14:46:49 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 15:46:49 -0400 Subject: OT: (but could be related) Jay Leno?s 3D Printer Makes Old Car Parts - NextEngine 3D scanner and Dimension 3D printer - Popular Mechanics In-Reply-To: <880D82FF-C915-4B6F-9DE3-B206F1969509@microspot.co.uk> References: <880D82FF-C915-4B6F-9DE3-B206F1969509@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <4A5E3229.1090709@gmail.com> Roger Holmes wrote: > Didn't there used to be a problem with 3D printed parts going brittle > and breaking when subjected to UV light, like sunlight or fluorescent > lamp light? Depends on the medium you use. Various media have different characteristics. In Mr. Leno's case, he's only using the plastic bits to have metal molds made. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 14:47:42 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 15:47:42 -0400 Subject: OT: (but could be related) Jay Leno?s 3D Printer Makes Old Car Parts - NextEngine 3D scanner and Dimension 3D printer - Popular Mechanics In-Reply-To: <05CAF4B8-90B8-45D5-8C99-3093F672BEF9@neurotica.com> References: <880D82FF-C915-4B6F-9DE3-B206F1969509@microspot.co.uk> <05CAF4B8-90B8-45D5-8C99-3093F672BEF9@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A5E325E.3060704@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > Not even close to being accurate enough for feature sizes that would > be considered useful today. Keep in mind that ICs are *already* "3D" in > that there are multiple layers, sometimes lots of them. Even many IC packages are now 3D these days. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 15 14:50:20 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 12:50:20 -0700 Subject: OT: (but could be related) Jay Leno?s 3D Printer Makes Old Car Parts - NextEngine 3D scanner and Dimension 3D printer - Pop In-Reply-To: <880D82FF-C915-4B6F-9DE3-B206F1969509@microspot.co.uk> References: , <880D82FF-C915-4B6F-9DE3-B206F1969509@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <4A5DD08C.288.375E0DEC@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jul 2009 at 18:56, Roger Holmes wrote: > Didn't there used to be a problem with 3D printed parts going brittle > and breaking when subjected to UV light, like sunlight or fluorescent > lamp light? > > What the world really wants is a 3D printer to print 3D integrated > circuits, including cooling ducts -either for cooling fluid or > alternatively for (heat) conductive material like copper, or both. Can > silicon and other constituents of ICs be accurately sprayed under > computer control? What the heck, why not create a 1,000 piece order for new toggles machined from stainless steel in China? It might actually be cheaper, who knows? --Chuck (just kidding) From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 15 14:53:56 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 12:53:56 -0700 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <68BEAAEBE3C7431D91E067ED9330DDD2@barry> References: , <68BEAAEBE3C7431D91E067ED9330DDD2@barry> Message-ID: <4A5DD164.342.376159EA@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jul 2009 at 14:59, Barry Watzman wrote: > The correct name for what you are [incorrectly] calling a "PCMCIA > Card" is a "PC Card". PCMCIA is the name of the organization that > owns the trademarks and they changed the name of the CARDS from > "PCMCIA cards" to "PC Cards" more than a decade ago (early 1990's), > but people just won't let go. I resisted because the new name smacked of usurpation. One used to call a small PCB that plugged into an assembly a "card" or "PC card". Whippersnappers! And keep off my lawn... --Chuck From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Wed Jul 15 14:57:34 2009 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 12:57:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <4A5DD164.342.376159EA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <918595.73642.qm@web112208.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> PCMCIA People Cant Memorize Computer Industry Acronyms --- On Wed, 7/15/09, Chuck Guzis wrote: > From: Chuck Guzis > Subject: Re: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Wednesday, July 15, 2009, 3:53 PM > On 15 Jul 2009 at 14:59, Barry > Watzman wrote: > > > The correct name for what you are [incorrectly] > calling a "PCMCIA > > Card" is a "PC Card".? PCMCIA is the name of the > organization that > > owns the trademarks and they changed the name of the > CARDS from > > "PCMCIA cards" to "PC Cards" more than a decade ago > (early 1990's), > > but people just won't let go. > > I resisted because the new name smacked of > usurpation.? ? One used to > call a small PCB that plugged into an assembly a "card" or > "PC card". > Whippersnappers! > ? > And keep off my lawn... > > --Chuck > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 15 15:00:48 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 13:00:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RANT: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay In-Reply-To: <68BEAAEBE3C7431D91E067ED9330DDD2@barry> References: <68BEAAEBE3C7431D91E067ED9330DDD2@barry> Message-ID: <20090715123852.L94152@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 15 Jul 2009, Barry Watzman wrote: > The correct name for what you are [incorrectly] calling a "PCMCIA Card" is a > "PC Card". PCMCIA is the name of the organization that owns the trademarks > and they changed the name of the CARDS from "PCMCIA cards" to "PC Cards" They can TRY. 1) I have some cards that predate their attempt to change the name. 2) "PC Card" is an unacceptably bad choice for a new name, since SOME use "PC cards" to refer to any ISA board. 3) "PCMCIA" doesn't need to be broken down into its component parts and then skip some of them. It originally was trademarked as "Personal Computer Memory Card Industry Association", and "PCMCIA Cards" was, and therefore STILL IS, a valid name for them. 4) If you really believe that some industry association can retro-actively change the name, then consider "PCMCIA" to mean "People Can't Memorize Computer Industry Acronyms". > more than a decade ago (early 1990's), but people just won't let go. . . . and just who has the authority to DEMAND such a change? I'll "let go" when they pry them from my cold dead hands. > "MC" in PCMCIA stands for "Memory Card", which was [ALL] that they were when > they came into existence, but that hasn't been the primary use of these > cards in almost 20 years. And the "A" stands for "Association". Neither is > appropriate to the cards themselves as they are used today, and "PCMCIA > Card" is not in accord with the organization's registered trademarks [They > own both the standard and the trademarks, they get to decide the "right" > names for them.] Sure. "right". The component parts are largely irrelevant. A card that complied with the specs from the Personal Computer Memory Card Industry Association, even if it was NOT a memory card, was validly a "PCMCIA card". The company that trademarked, etc. was NAMED "PCMCIA", and it is irrelevant that those cards began to encompass some non-memory functions. "AT&T" ("American Telephone and Telegraph") is a company name, even if the specific product is neither "telephone" nor "telegraph". Once a given item has a name, NOBODY has the power to FORCE a rename. If I have a "Heathkit", "Thinker Toys", "Kentucky Fried Computers", "Shugart TECHNOLOGY", "Tandy", "Radio Shack", "VTOS" item, I can and will continue to call it by its name, regardless of what the current name is of the company that made or named it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 15 15:12:48 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 13:12:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: <4A5D9744.14923.367E36B3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4A5D29EF.7040801@oldskool.org>, <4A5CF7CF.27449.340F4D4E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A5D9744.14923.367E36B3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20090715130831.G94152@shell.lmi.net> > > Just curious - I don't know if I ever saw a Microsoft branded > > version of MASM 1.0 - I have the complete IBM "Macro Assembler On Wed, 15 Jul 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > That's the one I'm talking about. I'm not sure if MS ever sold the > 1.0 version as a retail product. I don't think so, but they did provide MASM to at least some MS-DOS bundling computer companies. Some Morrow, Toshiba, etc. releases (around MS-DOS 2.00?) had Masm, and even ASM as files on the MS-DOS system disk. > over 8 MB. I know--welcome to the 21st century--nobody writes > assembly anymore. Were we always NOBODIES, and did we earn that distinction? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 15 15:18:00 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 21:18:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cleaning an LK201 Keyboard In-Reply-To: <4A5E31FA.7060307@compsys.to> from "Jerome H. Fine" at Jul 15, 9 03:46:02 pm Message-ID: > > I just cleaned an LK201 keyboard. It was actually quite clean with only a How far did you dsmantle it? The casing comes off quite easily (1/4" hex-head screws under the plastic feet, then slide the keyboard itself out of the lower part). Yo can separate the encoder PCB from the keyboard itself, but for cleaning I don't think it's worth doing (it is for faultfinding/reapir). Yo can remove the keycaps (see below), but don't try to take the keyboard assembly apart. It's heat-staked, and I've never managed to get one to go back togeterh and stat together! > few stains and a bit of dust. I used a baby wipe since it seemed to be the > most useful in terms of being able to eliminate the dust as well as the very > minor stains. > > Has anyone any other method or suggestions? Deleds on what you want to clean. If you remove the casing and keycaps, you can clean them with foam cleaner, or propan-2-ol, or... > > One problem is that there is one sticky key - PF4 in this case. It is not a > problem if I use a quick sharp hit of 4 to 5 times the normal force. When > just a gentle to firm force is used, it often sticks and sometimes even goes > into multiple repeats. Hitting it firmly again frees up the key and it > releases. > The problem might have been caused during the cleaning if some of the > baby wipe is stuck within the key release mechanism - I tend to remember > that the PF4 key was not sticking when I tested it before cleaning. > > Any suggestions? Remove the keycap. To do this, remove the top part of the casing (see above), then you can see how the keycaps are fastened by moulded plastic hooks (2 per key) that clip into the while plastic housings. Normally you can slightly twist a keycap in the appropriate direction to free the hooks and it'll come off. At thls point you can clean the cross-sahped plunger on the keycap and the hole it fits into on the housing. Sometimes you need to _carefully_ bend up the spring leaf under the key, inside the housing. You have to use stiff wire 'tools' through the holes in the key hosuing to do this. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 15 15:22:50 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 16:22:50 -0400 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: <4A5D9744.14923.367E36B3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4A5D29EF.7040801@oldskool.org>, <4A5CF7CF.27449.340F4D4E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A5D9744.14923.367E36B3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Jul 15, 2009, at 11:45 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Now, if someone would bring the microcontroller assemblers (PIC, AVR) > up to the level of MASM 6.x (or even the F level S/360 Assembler, or > CDC COMPASS) in terms of flexibility, I could die happy. I wonder how easily retargetable those assemblers are.. 8-) > What's > insane is that the current PIC assembler (MPASMWIN) executable is > over 8 MB. Welcome to the wonderful world of Windows software. ;) > I know--welcome to the 21st century--nobody writes > assembly anymore. Urr? Wow, if THAT were actually true.. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 15 15:23:48 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 13:23:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Warped punched cards In-Reply-To: <4A5D982D.24497.3681C24A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <6dbe3c380907082150s72617873r55ec16bb4e6d0c0b@mail.gmail.com>, <755CCB92-5E4F-4054-846A-F8DB0725CE8D@neurotica.com>, <4A5D982D.24497.3681C24A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20090715131418.T94152@shell.lmi.net> In the mid 1960s, my father did some social science research work for CBS, including their "National Driver's Test". The impetus for him to learn FORTRAN was the botched job that IBM did on the programming of the data analysis of the driver's test. On screen, you could see Walter Cronkite stalling for time, while my father, behind him, was frantically manually calculating, so that at least the percentages added to 100. In several of their later projects, they actually distributed "Port-a-punch" cards, and had people slap a stamp onto them and MAIL THEM! SOME had to be completely repunched, and some had to be duplicated one at a time on an 029. BUT, MOST of them were readable! I heard that what they did was use a simple hydraulic press on the decks, and then IBM enlarged (opened to its maximum?) the gate of the card reader. ("Port-a-punch" cards were ordinary IBM cards that were pre-perforated on every other column, giving 40 columns of data) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 15:25:38 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 16:25:38 -0400 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: <20090715130831.G94152@shell.lmi.net> References: <4A5D29EF.7040801@oldskool.org> <4A5CF7CF.27449.340F4D4E@cclist.sydex.com> <4A5D9744.14923.367E36B3@cclist.sydex.com> <20090715130831.G94152@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 7/15/09, Fred Cisin wrote: > > over 8 MB. I know--welcome to the 21st century--nobody writes > > assembly anymore. > > Were we always NOBODIES, and did we earn that distinction? "Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded." -- Yogi Berra (on his opinion of Rugerio's, a popular St. Louis restaurant where he had once worked as headwaiter.) From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jul 15 15:27:55 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 13:27:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: from Jim MacKenzie at "Jul 15, 9 01:45:20 pm" Message-ID: <200907152027.n6FKRthO015722@floodgap.com> > I understood (perhaps incorrectly) that PCMCIA cards were always 16-bit > cards, and PC Cards could be either 16 or 32 (but were almost always 32). > In other words, PCMCIA cards were PC Cards, but PC Cards weren't always > PCMCIA cards. I think you're thinking of CardBus (almost always 32-bit). I've heard PC Cards and PCMCIA cards used interchangeably, and much I'm sure to the chagrin of the OP, the latter term is the one I use and hear most frequently. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If your happiness depends on anyone else, you've got a problem. -- R. Bach - From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 15 15:31:18 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 16:31:18 -0400 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: References: <4A5D29EF.7040801@oldskool.org> <4A5CF7CF.27449.340F4D4E@cclist.sydex.com> <4A5D9744.14923.367E36B3@cclist.sydex.com> <20090715130831.G94152@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5B9A1E1C-C061-45C0-8D6D-84E082ABD24A@neurotica.com> On Jul 15, 2009, at 4:25 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> over 8 MB. I know--welcome to the 21st century--nobody writes >>> assembly anymore. >> >> Were we always NOBODIES, and did we earn that distinction? > > "Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded." > > -- Yogi Berra (on his opinion of Rugerio's, a popular St. Louis > restaurant where he had once worked as headwaiter.) soda -> monitor -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From slawmaster at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 15:32:02 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 13:32:02 -0700 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: References: <4A5D29EF.7040801@oldskool.org> <4A5CF7CF.27449.340F4D4E@cclist.sydex.com> <4A5D9744.14923.367E36B3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <7d3530220907151332m12b6e897x7d109f9fcf18ae91@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 1:22 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jul 15, 2009, at 11:45 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> Now, if someone would bring the microcontroller assemblers (PIC, AVR) >> up to the level of MASM 6.x (or even the F level S/360 Assembler, or >> CDC COMPASS) in terms of flexibility, I could die happy. > > ?I wonder how easily retargetable those assemblers are.. ?8-) > >> ?What's >> insane is that the current PIC assembler (MPASMWIN) executable is >> over 8 MB. > > ?Welcome to the wonderful world of Windows software. ;) > >> I know--welcome to the 21st century--nobody writes >> assembly anymore. > > ?Urr? ?Wow, if THAT were actually true.. > > ? ? ? ? -Dave Right now I'm pondering if I need to jump into assembly to optimize this system call... writing PPC assembly isn't particularly painful or anything, but it's no C ;) John -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jul 15 15:34:55 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 13:34:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <68BEAAEBE3C7431D91E067ED9330DDD2@barry> from Barry Watzman at "Jul 15, 9 02:59:02 pm" Message-ID: <200907152034.n6FKYtL7009180@floodgap.com> > card. You can put any function onto a PC card that a desktop slot of the > corresponding type would have supported (and, conversely, you cannot, for > example, create a 16-bit PC card USB adapter with USB ports; the necessary > resources and data rates don't exist on the ISA bus, a PCI slot is > required). I have personally seen a 16-bit USB PCMCIA card, which are much sought after by older Mac laptop owners who do not have CardBus (such as 1400s, 5300s, etc.). They are practically unobtanium, but they did exist. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TRUE HEADLINE: Police To Begin Campaign To Run Down Jaywalkers ------------- From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 15 15:38:18 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 13:38:18 -0700 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: References: <4A5D29EF.7040801@oldskool.org>, <4A5D9744.14923.367E36B3@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4A5DDBCA.9403.3789EC06@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jul 2009 at 16:22, Dave McGuire wrote: > I wonder how easily retargetable those assemblers are.. 8-) I *have* given some thought to retargeting MASM 6. It should be possible, but I'm going to have to dig into the .HEX file format for the MCUs to see what's what. > Welcome to the wonderful world of Windows software. ;) Windows programs do seem to carry around a whole bunch of excess baggage, don't they? I don't know if Steve Gibson still does it, but at one time he was an advocate of programming Windows apps in assembly. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 15:39:30 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 16:39:30 -0400 Subject: Anyone have a valid address for Jim Willing? Message-ID: Hi, all, I was searching Google Images for pictures of the blank filler panel brackets (the discussion earlier this week) and ran across an image on Jim's site of a "CompuServe Node Board". I know a little bit about them (perhaps not as much as some on this list) and wanted to pass some info to him from my own experiences (I happen to have a tri-node chassis, but no CompuServe-made boards). My attempts to write him directly bounced. Basically, I wanted to tell him, yes, they are Qbus boards, yes, they are longer than standard DEC boards (longer than "extended length"), and at some point prior to 2003, they made 486-based Qbus boards and must have ported their PDP-11-based network transport software to Intel. Does anyone know what types of boards CompuServe might have made for the "newer" nodes (besides serial boards and Intel CPU boards)? Thanks, -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 15:42:24 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 16:42:24 -0400 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <200907152034.n6FKYtL7009180@floodgap.com> References: <68BEAAEBE3C7431D91E067ED9330DDD2@barry> <200907152034.n6FKYtL7009180@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 4:34 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I have personally seen a 16-bit USB PCMCIA card, which are much sought after > by older Mac laptop owners who do not have CardBus (such as 1400s, 5300s, > etc.). They are practically unobtanium, but they did exist. Wow. Long ago, I wanted one of those for an older Dell laptop (before that laptop was stolen from me at a hotel). The vendor FAQ for that model (Latitude LM, IIRC) stated that there was *no* way to put USB on it since it wasn't part of the mainboard chipset and the machine only supported 16-bit cards. I had no idea someone _did_ make one. I'm hardly surprised they are extremely difficult to find. -ethan From jim at photojim.ca Wed Jul 15 15:47:35 2009 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 14:47:35 -0600 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) References: <200907152027.n6FKRthO015722@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4C5EA235433D4DCAA0382B48FD2E8721@JIMM> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 2:27 PM Subject: Re: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) > I think you're thinking of CardBus (almost always 32-bit). Right you are. PCMCIA is 16-bit, CardBus is 32-bit. Which means that almost no modern cards of this form factor are PCMCIA anymore. Jim From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jul 15 15:48:31 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 13:48:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: from Ethan Dicks at "Jul 15, 9 04:42:24 pm" Message-ID: <200907152048.n6FKmVNN015468@floodgap.com> > > I have personally seen a 16-bit USB PCMCIA card, which are much sought after > > by older Mac laptop owners who do not have CardBus (such as 1400s, 5300s, > > etc.). They are practically unobtanium, but they did exist. > > Wow. Long ago, I wanted one of those for an older Dell laptop (before > that laptop was stolen from me at a hotel). The vendor FAQ for that > model (Latitude LM, IIRC) stated that there was *no* way to put USB on > it since it wasn't part of the mainboard chipset and the machine only > supported 16-bit cards. > > I had no idea someone _did_ make one. I'm hardly surprised they are > extremely difficult to find. They were extremely difficult to find even when they were new, for reasons I did not understand, because there was and is certainly a background demand for them. IIRC, it was an IBM card, but that's about all I remember about it (other than my making sure and being told emphatically that it was indeed a 16-bit card). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The earth is like a tiny grain of sand, only a lot heavier and bigger. ----- From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 15:51:02 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 15:51:02 -0500 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: References: <738817.53169.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A5E4136.5090503@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Lots of acronymitis back then. Still a lot now, but users have had > more time to absorb some of it. At least folk don't try to turn it back into a word, like they insist on doing with some acronyms (e.g. "sequel", ugh). We could have ended up with "puccumsia" :-) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jul 15 05:05:15 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 03:05:15 -0700 Subject: OT: (but could be related) Jay Leno?s 3D Printer Makes Old Car Parts - NextEngine 3D scanner and Dimension 3D printer - Popular Mechanics In-Reply-To: <880D82FF-C915-4B6F-9DE3-B206F1969509@microspot.co.uk> References: <880D82FF-C915-4B6F-9DE3-B206F1969509@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <4A5DA9DB.6050004@jetnet.ab.ca> What about the smallest mechanical machines. I read about this in a old book. You start with a machine that makes a flat surface by rubbing two bars of material. Then you make a lathe and some other tiny tools and a electric motor of some kind. Then wash rinse and repeat to get a smaller lathe and motor ect ... Ben PS. I don't trust the level of technology to do all this... too much hidden over head. What is wrong with a REAL MACHINE SHOP? While it will not do for transistors,big iron still has a lot of mechanical parts. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 15 16:08:03 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 17:08:03 -0400 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <4A5E4136.5090503@gmail.com> References: <738817.53169.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A5E4136.5090503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8C9273A6-EC7B-47C9-9BED-41DD253306C5@neurotica.com> On Jul 15, 2009, at 4:51 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> Lots of acronymitis back then. Still a lot now, but users have had >> more time to absorb some of it. > > At least folk don't try to turn it back into a word, like they > insist on doing with some acronyms (e.g. "sequel", ugh). *BARF* If I hear that ONE MORE TIME.. > We could have ended up with "puccumsia" :-) That sounds like something one would go to a doctor to have removed. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 16:09:14 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 17:09:14 -0400 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <4A5E4136.5090503@gmail.com> References: <738817.53169.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A5E4136.5090503@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> Lots of acronymitis back then. ?Still a lot now, but users have had >> more time to absorb some of it. > > At least folk don't try to turn it back into a word, like they insist on > doing with some acronyms (e.g. "sequel", ugh). I hear that one pronounced as letters "EssCueEll" and as a word "sequel", but I've never seen anyone try to write it any way other than SQL. Are you saying you've seen it written that way? That sounds to me like the writer is wallowing in ignorance and only ever heard the word used and translated it to a common word in English (which reminds me of the story from The DEC Professional about the self-taught, insular MicroVAX System Manager who called Field Service up to say his "Kaypoo Cashay" was broken). > We could have ended up with "puccumsia" :-) Bleah! -ethan From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jul 15 16:09:52 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 14:09:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <8C9273A6-EC7B-47C9-9BED-41DD253306C5@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Jul 15, 9 05:08:03 pm" Message-ID: <200907152109.n6FL9qJX015614@floodgap.com> > > We could have ended up with "puccumsia" :-) > > That sounds like something one would go to a doctor to have removed. No, it's an STD. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I, for one, welcome our new C64 overlords. -- John Floren ------------------ ... just kidding. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jul 15 16:05:37 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 14:05:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone have a valid address for Jim Willing? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For that matter does anyone have recent news on Jim? Last I heard his one son was selling a PDP-11 of some sort on eBay, but I think that was a year or so ago. Zane On Wed, 15 Jul 2009, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hi, all, > > I was searching Google Images for pictures of the blank filler panel > brackets (the discussion earlier this week) and ran across an image on > Jim's site of a "CompuServe Node Board". I know a little bit about > them (perhaps not as much as some on this list) and wanted to pass > some info to him from my own experiences (I happen to have a tri-node > chassis, but no CompuServe-made boards). My attempts to write him > directly bounced. > > Basically, I wanted to tell him, yes, they are Qbus boards, yes, they > are longer than standard DEC boards (longer than "extended length"), > and at some point prior to 2003, they made 486-based Qbus boards and > must have ported their PDP-11-based network transport software to > Intel. > > Does anyone know what types of boards CompuServe might have made for > the "newer" nodes (besides serial boards and Intel CPU boards)? > > Thanks, > > -ethan > From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 15 16:19:38 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 21:19:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) Message-ID: <508515.70275.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> I have a couple of PCMCIA cards for my Amiga 600. One is a cool 2MB (notice capital M & B!), whilst the other is 4Mb (notice small b!). I have never used the latter. I could never call them PC cards, since I use mine on non-PC's :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Wed, 15/7/09, Ethan Dicks wrote: From: Ethan Dicks Subject: Re: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Wednesday, 15 July, 2009, 8:42 PM On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Wed, 7/15/09, Barry Watzman wrote: >> The correct name for what you are >> [incorrectly] calling a "PCMCIA Card" is a >> "PC Card". > > And here I always thought that PCMCIA stood for "People Can't Memorize Computer Industry Acronyms"... I was at an Amiga user group meeting when the A600 came out.? Some younger guy (my age) was talking about PCMCIA cards since the A600 has a slot, and one of the older members asked him to "speak English" and "what does all that mean, anyway?"? She pounced on him when he couldn't regurgitate "Personal Computer Memory Card Industry Association" on the spot ("how do you expect us to know what you are talking about when you use words you don't even know what they mean?!?") Lots of acronymitis back then.? Still a lot now, but users have had more time to absorb some of it. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 16:20:33 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 17:20:33 -0400 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <8C9273A6-EC7B-47C9-9BED-41DD253306C5@neurotica.com> References: <738817.53169.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A5E4136.5090503@gmail.com> <8C9273A6-EC7B-47C9-9BED-41DD253306C5@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 5:08 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jul 15, 2009, at 4:51 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >>> >>> Lots of acronymitis back then. ?Still a lot now, but users have had >>> more time to absorb some of it. >> >> At least folk don't try to turn it back into a word, like they insist on >> doing with some acronyms (e.g. "sequel", ugh). > > ?*BARF* ?If I hear that ONE MORE TIME.. Perhaps the successor to SQL should be something like Advanced Relational Structured Expressions. ... so at least you could ask "who knows anything about MyARSE?" or say "we need to hire an expert on MyARSE!" etc. That should take care of pronunciation-of-acronym problems. Hilarity ensues. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 15 16:22:09 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 14:22:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <8C9273A6-EC7B-47C9-9BED-41DD253306C5@neurotica.com> References: <738817.53169.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A5E4136.5090503@gmail.com> <8C9273A6-EC7B-47C9-9BED-41DD253306C5@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20090715142031.A94152@shell.lmi.net> > At least folk don't try to turn it back into a word, like they > insist on doing with some acronyms (e.g. "sequel", ugh). I'd rather pronounce "SQL" as "squawl" From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 16:24:36 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 17:24:36 -0400 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <508515.70275.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <508515.70275.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > I have a couple of PCMCIA cards for my Amiga 600. One is a cool 2MB (notice capital M & B!), whilst the other is 4Mb (notice small b!). I have never used the latter. Are those SRAM cards or FlashROM? I never owned an A600 or A1200, so I never got to play with that stuff in the Amiga realm. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 15 16:28:30 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 17:28:30 -0400 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: References: <738817.53169.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A5E4136.5090503@gmail.com> <8C9273A6-EC7B-47C9-9BED-41DD253306C5@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Jul 15, 2009, at 5:20 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>> Lots of acronymitis back then. Still a lot now, but users have had >>>> more time to absorb some of it. >>> >>> At least folk don't try to turn it back into a word, like they >>> insist on >>> doing with some acronyms (e.g. "sequel", ugh). >> >> *BARF* If I hear that ONE MORE TIME.. > > Perhaps the successor to SQL should be something like Advanced > Relational Structured Expressions. > > ... so at least you could ask "who knows anything about MyARSE?" or > say "we need to hire an expert on MyARSE!" etc. That should take care > of pronunciation-of-acronym problems. > > Hilarity ensues. Priceless! -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mkr at trs-80.org Wed Jul 15 16:33:15 2009 From: mkr at trs-80.org (Matthew Reed) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 17:33:15 -0400 Subject: IBM 5150 PC In-Reply-To: <4A5DDBCA.9403.3789EC06@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4A5D29EF.7040801@oldskool.org>, <4A5D9744.14923.367E36B3@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A5DDBCA.9403.3789EC06@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A5E4B1B.3080307@trs-80.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Windows programs do seem to carry around a whole bunch of excess > baggage, don't they? I don't know if Steve Gibson still does it, but > at one time he was an advocate of programming Windows apps in > assembly. I don't know if Steve Gibson does any more, but there are still people who program in assembly language for Windows: Once you get past the initial hurdles, Windows is actually a surprisingly good platform for assembly language. -- Matthew Reed http://www.trs-80.org mkr at trs-80.org From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 16:50:30 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 16:50:30 -0500 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: References: <738817.53169.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A5E4136.5090503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A5E4F26.9030601@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Jules > Richardson wrote: >> Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> Lots of acronymitis back then. Still a lot now, but users have had >>> more time to absorb some of it. >> At least folk don't try to turn it back into a word, like they insist on >> doing with some acronyms (e.g. "sequel", ugh). > > I hear that one pronounced as letters "EssCueEll" and as a word > "sequel", but I've never seen anyone try to write it any way other > than SQL. Are you saying you've seen it written that way? No, just pronounced that way. I don't mind it for most TLAs - but something about the SQL really annoys. Maybe it was just that it always seemed to be pronounced as individual letters for years, and everyone was happy with it that way, then 'sequel' started appearing sometime in the 90s; I don't like change for no good reason :-) From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Wed Jul 15 16:58:20 2009 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 16:58:20 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Anyone have some "spare" IBM SP frame badging? Message-ID: Hey all; Trying to locate the "IBM" and "RS6000 SP" badges for my SP frame, anyone out there think they can help out? I also need the "cover" that sits behind the front skirt immediately ahead of the power supplies as mine did not come with it. I'm in Central USA, obviously happy to pay shipping, let me know off-list. Thanks all! - JP From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 15 17:25:27 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 18:25:27 -0400 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <4A5E4F26.9030601@gmail.com> References: <738817.53169.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A5E4136.5090503@gmail.com> <4A5E4F26.9030601@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8AF80D79-F601-4EA6-BCC5-2BF50E262ECA@neurotica.com> On Jul 15, 2009, at 5:50 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >>>> Lots of acronymitis back then. Still a lot now, but users have had >>>> more time to absorb some of it. >>> At least folk don't try to turn it back into a word, like they >>> insist on >>> doing with some acronyms (e.g. "sequel", ugh). >> I hear that one pronounced as letters "EssCueEll" and as a word >> "sequel", but I've never seen anyone try to write it any way other >> than SQL. Are you saying you've seen it written that way? > > No, just pronounced that way. > > I don't mind it for most TLAs - but something about the SQL really > annoys. Maybe it was just that it always seemed to be pronounced as > individual letters for years, and everyone was happy with it that > way, then 'sequel' started appearing sometime in the 90s; I don't > like change for no good reason :-) I've noticed a reason, but not a good one. Since SQL has become more "mainstream" in the past decade or so, more and more clueless newbies have been exposed to it. It's these people who I most often hear saying "sequel". -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From tpeters at mixcom.com Wed Jul 15 17:44:37 2009 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 17:44:37 -0500 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: References: <8C9273A6-EC7B-47C9-9BED-41DD253306C5@neurotica.com> <738817.53169.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A5E4136.5090503@gmail.com> <8C9273A6-EC7B-47C9-9BED-41DD253306C5@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20090715174402.0c8ac6a8@localhost> At 05:20 PM 7/15/2009 -0400, you wrote: >On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 5:08 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On Jul 15, 2009, at 4:51 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > >>> > >>> Lots of acronymitis back then. Still a lot now, but users have had > >>> more time to absorb some of it. > >> > >> At least folk don't try to turn it back into a word, like they insist on > >> doing with some acronyms (e.g. "sequel", ugh). > > > > *BARF* If I hear that ONE MORE TIME.. > >Perhaps the successor to SQL should be something like Advanced >Relational Structured Expressions. > >... so at least you could ask "who knows anything about MyARSE?" or >say "we need to hire an expert on MyARSE!" etc. That should take care >of pronunciation-of-acronym problems. Unfortunate, isn't it, that FLA is a TLA. ----- 806. [Peace] It is an unfortunate fact that we can secure peace only by preparing for war. --John F. Kennedy --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From ray at arachelian.com Wed Jul 15 17:57:21 2009 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 18:57:21 -0400 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <4A5E4F26.9030601@gmail.com> References: <738817.53169.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A5E4136.5090503@gmail.com> <4A5E4F26.9030601@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A5E5ED1.7060505@arachelian.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > I don't mind it for most TLAs - but something about the SQL really > annoys. Maybe it was just that it always seemed to be pronounced as > individual letters for years, and everyone was happy with it that way, > then 'sequel' started appearing sometime in the 90s; I don't like > change for no good reason :-) I knew a guy that tried to get everyone to call it "squeal", (though he mostly reserved it for SQL Server) -- sadly he didn't succeed. Kinda like they tried to get scsi to be pronounced sexy instead of scuzzy, but in reverse. :) From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jul 15 17:52:51 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 15:52:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <68BEAAEBE3C7431D91E067ED9330DDD2@barry> References: <68BEAAEBE3C7431D91E067ED9330DDD2@barry> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Jul 2009, Barry Watzman wrote: > The correct name for what you are [incorrectly] calling a "PCMCIA Card" is a > "PC Card". PCMCIA is the name of the organization that owns the trademarks > and they changed the name of the CARDS from "PCMCIA cards" to "PC Cards" > more than a decade ago (early 1990's), but people just won't let go. The > "MC" in PCMCIA stands for "Memory Card", which was [ALL] that they were when > they came into existence, but that hasn't been the primary use of these > cards in almost 20 years. And the "A" stands for "Association". Neither is > appropriate to the cards themselves as they are used today, and "PCMCIA > Card" is not in accord with the organization's registered trademarks [They > own both the standard and the trademarks, they get to decide the "right" > names for them.] Whatever. It has been my experience that most people know what you mean when you say PCMCIA, the same is not true for "PC Card". Zane From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Jul 15 18:35:00 2009 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 19:35:00 -0400 Subject: Cleaning an LK201 Keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A5E67A4.2070802@compsys.to> >Tony Duell wrote: >>I just cleaned an LK201 keyboard. It was actually quite clean with only a >> >How far did you dsmantle it? The casing comes off quite easily (1/4" >hex-head screws under the plastic feet, then slide the keyboard itself >out of the lower part). Yo can separate the encoder PCB from the keyboard >itself, but for cleaning I don't think it's worth doing (it is for >faultfinding/reapir). > > I did not dismantle the keyboard at all. On the other hand, the PF4 key no longer seems to be sticking. >You can remove the keycaps (see below), but don't try to take the keyboard >assembly apart. It's heat-staked, and I've never managed to get one to go >back together and stay together! > > I have heard that to be the situation with the LK201. Thank you for the reminder. >>few stains and a bit of dust. I used a baby wipe since it seemed to be the >>most useful in terms of being able to eliminate the dust as well as the very >>minor stains. >> >Depends on what you want to clean. If you remove the casing and keycaps, >you can clean them with foam cleaner, or propan-2-ol, or... > > The stains could be removed with just the baby wipe folded to be 4 layers wrapped around a ordinary eating knife blade - that is for cutting soft food, i.e. not sharp at all, but fairly thin. The stains could be sufficiently removed from the hard-to-get-at sides to be eliminated from being seen, although probably not totally removed. >>One problem is that there is one sticky key - PF4 in this case. It is not a >>problem if I use a quick sharp hit of 4 to 5 times the normal force. When >>just a gentle to firm force is used, it often sticks and sometimes even goes >>into multiple repeats. Hitting it firmly again frees up the key and it >>releases. >>The problem might have been caused during the cleaning if some of the >>baby wipe is stuck within the key release mechanism - I tend to remember >>that the PF4 key was not sticking when I tested it before cleaning. >> >Remove the keycap. To do this, remove the top part of the casing (see >above), then you can see how the keycaps are fastened by moulded plastic >hooks (2 per key) that clip into the while plastic housings. Normally you >can slightly twist a keycap in the appropriate direction to free the >hooks and it'll come off. > >At thls point you can clean the cross-sahped plunger on the keycap and >the hole it fits into on the housing. > >Sometimes you need to _carefully_ bend up the spring leaf under the key, >inside the housing. You have to use stiff wire 'tools' through the holes >in the key hosuing to do this. > > As I found, the PF4 key is no longer sticking, but maybe someone else can use the suggestion. As always, thank you very much for your excellent help, advice and suggestions. If you can ever use any help with software for RT-11 systems, please ask. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Jul 15 18:37:37 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 00:37:37 +0100 Subject: An interesting ebay find and what to do with scsi do-dads In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380907142002y8ff5f20w29bb6ec2f5b0e466@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380907142002y8ff5f20w29bb6ec2f5b0e466@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1247701057.12932.18.camel@elric> On Tue, 2009-07-14 at 22:02 -0500, Brian Lanning wrote: > I picked up an external scsi case with 5 devices in it. Two plextor > cdroms, a zip 250 drive, and most interestingly a 3.5" floppy drive > and some sort of memory card reader. This furthers my collection of > internal and external almost-useless removable media devices. :-) It > was sold as an IBM branded device, although I knew before hand that it > wasn't. But there is an IBM sticker on the back of the case that says > M/T 1609-F21 and a serial number. Not sure what's up with that. > Maybe it's just an asset tag. That sounds like part of a photo processing booth. They had a couple of CD drives, a Zip drive, IIRC an LS120 and a multi-card reader (possibly with CF, SD/MMC, SM and MemoryStick). I used to support these a couple of years ago as part of IBM's retail POS helldesk in Greenock. Gordon From bdwheele at indiana.edu Wed Jul 15 18:59:07 2009 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 19:59:07 -0400 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <4A5E5ED1.7060505@arachelian.com> References: <738817.53169.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A5E4136.5090503@gmail.com> <4A5E4F26.9030601@gmail.com> <4A5E5ED1.7060505@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <1247702347.25181.2.camel@pazuzu.kittytangles.net> On Wed, 2009-07-15 at 18:57 -0400, Ray Arachelian wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > > I don't mind it for most TLAs - but something about the SQL really > > annoys. Maybe it was just that it always seemed to be pronounced as > > individual letters for years, and everyone was happy with it that way, > > then 'sequel' started appearing sometime in the 90s; I don't like > > change for no good reason :-) > > I knew a guy that tried to get everyone to call it "squeal", (though he > mostly reserved it for SQL Server) -- sadly he didn't succeed. Kinda > like they tried to get scsi to be pronounced sexy instead of scuzzy, but > in reverse. :) I always heard it as "sequel" because it was an extension to quel (query language) and someone was making a little jokey. Either way, its much better than some of the "tech training" people around here that insist on pronouncing "www" as "dub-dub-dub" I suppose the pronunciation of "etc" is a flamewar waiting to happen as well :) From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jul 15 19:06:26 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 17:06:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <4A5E5ED1.7060505@arachelian.com> References: <738817.53169.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A5E4136.5090503@gmail.com> <4A5E4F26.9030601@gmail.com> <4A5E5ED1.7060505@arachelian.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Jul 2009, Ray Arachelian wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> I don't mind it for most TLAs - but something about the SQL really >> annoys. Maybe it was just that it always seemed to be pronounced as >> individual letters for years, and everyone was happy with it that way, >> then 'sequel' started appearing sometime in the 90s; I don't like >> change for no good reason :-) > > I knew a guy that tried to get everyone to call it "squeal", (though he > mostly reserved it for SQL Server) -- sadly he didn't succeed. Kinda > like they tried to get scsi to be pronounced sexy instead of scuzzy, but > in reverse. :) Saying "SQL" == "squeal" makes me think of engine trouble, to wit, a belt and a pulley about to destroy themselves. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 19:15:28 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 19:15:28 -0500 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <68BEAAEBE3C7431D91E067ED9330DDD2@barry> References: <68BEAAEBE3C7431D91E067ED9330DDD2@barry> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380907151715q6501cf8ft7abc10282ea3a1f@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 1:59 PM, Barry Watzman wrote: > The correct name for what you are [incorrectly] calling a "PCMCIA Card" is a > "PC Card". ok, first off, I know. These cards were called pcmcia cards for years by quite a lot of people until they were later renamed PC Cards. I really couldn't care less why it happened. But I was aware of the rename. I also stopped paying attention to a lot of other computer particulars somewhere around the same time. When I have a need to know, I'll look it up. Secondly, I think it would serve a lot of us here if everyone were aware of Aperger's Syndrome. I have it, and probably a very significant percentage of people who read this mail list have it as well. People who have it could have a several opinions about it. You could for example, believe that you're right and that nothing is wrong with you, and that you're completely normal, in spite of lacking an adequate frame of reference with which to compare your experience. Or, you could accept that you have it, but conclude that you're manner of thinking, behaving and being is better than that of everyone else and refuse to modify your behavior in an attempt to better cohabitate with your neighbors. Or, you could accept that you have it and decide to work toward learning some people skills in an attempt to at least partially improve the opinions of the people you meet. > There's scads of PCMCIA cards out there. ?Amazon.com has 4 pages of search > results for PCMCIA. ?Firewire, modem, wireless, memory card adapters, etc. I think i should have reworded my question to include the caveat that the PC Card would need to function correctly within the context of a scsi bus. I'm not sure how far I would get with a PC Card network device plugged into a scsi bus. brian From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 19:19:20 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 19:19:20 -0500 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <508515.70275.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <508515.70275.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380907151719k4d3c4b5ci566057f80887421c@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 4:19 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > I have a couple of PCMCIA cards for my Amiga 600. One is a cool 2MB (notice capital M & B!), whilst the other is 4Mb (notice small b!). I have never used the latter. > > I could never call them PC cards, since I use mine on non-PC's :) I have a couple of network boards, one for the 600 and one for a 1200 i haven't assembled yet. They had to be the right chipsets though so that the drivers were available. I haven't gotten around to playing with them yet. brian From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 19:32:53 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 20:32:53 -0400 Subject: Warped punched cards In-Reply-To: <20090715131418.T94152@shell.lmi.net> References: <6dbe3c380907082150s72617873r55ec16bb4e6d0c0b@mail.gmail.com> <755CCB92-5E4F-4054-846A-F8DB0725CE8D@neurotica.com> <4A5D982D.24497.3681C24A@cclist.sydex.com> <20090715131418.T94152@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > In several of their later projects, they actually distributed > "Port-a-punch" cards, and had people slap a stamp onto them and MAIL THEM! > SOME had to be completely repunched, and some had to be duplicated one at > a time on an 029. ?BUT, MOST of them were readable! ?I heard that what > they did was use a simple hydraulic press on the decks, and then IBM > enlarged (opened to its maximum?) the gate of the card reader. IBM had duplicating punches that could handle really mangled cards. For example, the punch cards used by tube dealers back in the 1960s (used for reordering) were typically folded in three inside a sleeve of tubes. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 19:39:12 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 20:39:12 -0400 Subject: FT: CDC Cy 960 Message-ID: There is a good possibility that I will have a CDC Cyber 960 available for trade soon, along with an Amperif FSD disk array. This is a big machine - check out cray-cyber.org for details. I would be willing to trade for a similar machine, or something else interesting and old. Or maybe something completely different. Located in the NY area. Contact me off list. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 15 19:55:14 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 17:55:14 -0700 Subject: Warped punched cards In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c380907082150s72617873r55ec16bb4e6d0c0b@mail.gmail.com>, <20090715131418.T94152@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: <4A5E1802.19654.38754932@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jul 2009 at 20:32, William Donzelli wrote: > IBM had duplicating punches that could handle really mangled cards. > For example, the punch cards used by tube dealers back in the 1960s > (used for reordering) were typically folded in three inside a sleeve > of tubes. In that movie "Billion Dollar Brain", Karl Malden pulls three cards folded in half out of his pocket and sticks them into the deck that's being read by the H200 reader. I thought that was pretty gutsy. Good thing that H200 wasn't a 360/20 with that insane 2560 MFCM--the movie would have ended much sooner... --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 20:11:53 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 21:11:53 -0400 Subject: Warped punched cards In-Reply-To: <4A5E1802.19654.38754932@cclist.sydex.com> References: <6dbe3c380907082150s72617873r55ec16bb4e6d0c0b@mail.gmail.com> <20090715131418.T94152@shell.lmi.net> <4A5E1802.19654.38754932@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Good thing that H200 wasn't a 360/20 with that insane 2560 MFCM--the > movie would have ended much sooner... Or could go horror show. -- Will From ray at arachelian.com Wed Jul 15 20:15:20 2009 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 21:15:20 -0400 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: References: <738817.53169.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A5E4136.5090503@gmail.com> <4A5E4F26.9030601@gmail.com> <4A5E5ED1.7060505@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4A5E7F28.5050605@arachelian.com> David Griffith wrote: > > Saying "SQL" == "squeal" makes me think of engine trouble, to wit, a > belt and a pulley about to destroy themselves. > Sure, especially if you add Engine as in some library to do SQL processing... "The squeal engine in that app is slow." From ray at arachelian.com Wed Jul 15 20:22:25 2009 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 21:22:25 -0400 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <1247702347.25181.2.camel@pazuzu.kittytangles.net> References: <738817.53169.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A5E4136.5090503@gmail.com> <4A5E4F26.9030601@gmail.com> <4A5E5ED1.7060505@arachelian.com> <1247702347.25181.2.camel@pazuzu.kittytangles.net> Message-ID: <4A5E80D1.2020002@arachelian.com> Brian Wheeler wrote: > I suppose the pronunciation of "etc" is a flamewar waiting to happen as > well :) > > It's always "Et-Cee" short for et-cetera. (let the flames begin.) (I've always found it odd that etc wasn't called something like /conf, but of course, in the early Unixen, there were binaries in /etc so it really was an et cetera directory.) Another fun one is what to call "vi" - (I always called vai, never veee aye - that can start a flame fest too) but if anyone calls it 6, they'll get slapped with a tuna. :-) fsck (pronounced fisk) is fun too... it almost sounds like a word.. "That fsck'ing volume got corrupted again." From ray at arachelian.com Wed Jul 15 20:24:42 2009 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 21:24:42 -0400 Subject: Warped punched cards In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c380907082150s72617873r55ec16bb4e6d0c0b@mail.gmail.com> <755CCB92-5E4F-4054-846A-F8DB0725CE8D@neurotica.com> <4A5D982D.24497.3681C24A@cclist.sydex.com> <20090715131418.T94152@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4A5E815A.2060703@arachelian.com> William Donzelli wrote: > IBM had duplicating punches that could handle really mangled cards. > For example, the punch cards used by tube dealers back in the 1960s > (used for reordering) were typically folded in three inside a sleeve > of tubes. > > I remember back in the early 80's, Con Edison used to send a punch card with their bills to be returned with a check and the inscription "do not fold, staple or mutilate." :-) From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jul 15 20:26:37 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 18:26:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <4A5E80D1.2020002@arachelian.com> References: <738817.53169.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A5E4136.5090503@gmail.com> <4A5E4F26.9030601@gmail.com> <4A5E5ED1.7060505@arachelian.com> <1247702347.25181.2.camel@pazuzu.kittytangles.net> <4A5E80D1.2020002@arachelian.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Jul 2009, Ray Arachelian wrote: > fsck (pronounced fisk) is fun too... it almost sounds like a word.. > "That fsck'ing volume got corrupted again." I learned it as "fusck", which is both appropriate and catartic. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 15 20:32:16 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 21:32:16 -0400 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <4A5E80D1.2020002@arachelian.com> References: <738817.53169.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A5E4136.5090503@gmail.com> <4A5E4F26.9030601@gmail.com> <4A5E5ED1.7060505@arachelian.com> <1247702347.25181.2.camel@pazuzu.kittytangles.net> <4A5E80D1.2020002@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <51BBD0C6-9E15-4EED-9647-0FCA5A9C32B1@neurotica.com> On Jul 15, 2009, at 9:22 PM, Ray Arachelian wrote: > fsck (pronounced fisk) is fun too... it almost sounds like a word.. > "That fsck'ing volume got corrupted again." On the production systems at a company I worked for in the mid-1990s, which consisted of about 1500 SunOS machines, we used rdist to send out a symlink to fsck called "fist"...so we could fist the filesystems. Such a feeling of power. =) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jul 15 22:01:30 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 21:01:30 -0600 Subject: FT: CDC Cy 960 In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 15 Jul 2009 20:39:12 -0400. Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > There is a good possibility that I will have a CDC Cyber 960 available > for trade soon, along with an Amperif FSD disk array. This is a big > machine - check out cray-cyber.org for details. Wowzers. Wish I could handle it. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Jul 15 22:36:58 2009 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 23:36:58 -0400 Subject: Micropolis 1015-2 floppy drive Message-ID: <01CA05A5.2BC42CE0@MSE_D03> -----------Original Message: Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 10:02:24 -0500 From: Chris Elmquist Subject: Micropolis 1015-2 floppy drive Does anyone have specs or even better original documents for a Micropolis 1015-2 (aka mod II) 5.25" floppy drive? I have two connected to a Micropolis designed floppy controller in an old S-100 system. My memory tells me these were single sided, double density, 77 track, 100 tpi drives. But I may be confusing them with other Micropolis models that were used in this particular S-100 system around the same time. The S-100 system was built by Multi-Tech Systems Inc (the modem guys) here in St. Paul, MN around 1980,81. It is a model MT-500 and is a clone of an R2E design that came to market around the same time. I wrote portions of the PROM and CP/M BIOS for this thing when I was in highschool. I, of course, saved many pieces of the things and am preparing to bring one of them back online soon. Chris -- Chris Elmquist ---------Reply: Your memory's pretty good; they are indeed SS/DD 100TPI; there's also a 1016-2 which looks like pretty well the same drive. Vector Graphic used these drives with a Micropolis controller; I have two VG systems that use them (with hard sector disks, FWIW). The bare mechs were also used in Commodore 8050 dual disk drives (as well as Tandon and MPI) but with custom electronics. You can find a maintenance manual (26MB) at: www.vector-archive.org in the VG Docs CD folder. The Micropolis controller manual is in the Manuals folder. Good luck! mike **************************************** From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 22:41:36 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 22:41:36 -0500 Subject: An interesting ebay find and what to do with scsi do-dads In-Reply-To: <075b01ca0543$e85ee000$951c19bb@desktaba> References: <6dbe3c380907142002y8ff5f20w29bb6ec2f5b0e466@mail.gmail.com> <075b01ca0543$e85ee000$951c19bb@desktaba> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380907152041j6e96b653h9ca663f60000c4ce@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 6:55 AM, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > ? Photos? :oD Here's the ebay link. It has a couple pictures of the outside. The green thing in the middle is the memory card reader. The white stripe is masking tape covering slots for a couple other memory card formats. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=320392731526 brian From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Jul 15 23:15:39 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 00:15:39 -0400 Subject: FT: CDC Cy 960 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A5EA96B.9040009@atarimuseum.com> I think Sridhar just got his new 15KV stepdown transformer installed next to his house with a direct feed to Indian Point Nuclear Power Plant #3, he should have enough power for the system and air conditioning for it ;-) William Donzelli wrote: > There is a good possibility that I will have a CDC Cyber 960 available > for trade soon, along with an Amperif FSD disk array. This is a big > machine - check out cray-cyber.org for details. > > I would be willing to trade for a similar machine, or something else > interesting and old. Or maybe something completely different. > > Located in the NY area. Contact me off list. > > -- > Will > > From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Jul 15 23:38:46 2009 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 00:38:46 -0400 Subject: Micropolis 1015-2 floppy drive Message-ID: <01CA05AD.CB54E4E0@MSE_D03> ----------Original Message: Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 10:02:24 -0500 From: Chris Elmquist Subject: Micropolis 1015-2 floppy drive Does anyone have specs or even better original documents for a Micropolis 1015-2 (aka mod II) 5.25" floppy drive? I have two connected to a Micropolis designed floppy controller in an old S-100 system. ... I wrote portions of the PROM and CP/M BIOS for this thing when I was in highschool. I, of course, saved many pieces of the things and am preparing to bring one of them back online soon. Chris ------------Reply: Hmm, I wonder if that's the same PROM as in my VG systems; I've tried to replace the 1015-IIs with 1.2MB HD drives and although CP/M is quite happy with those, the system won't boot from them, so it looks like there's something fussy in the boot code in the Micropolis PROM. I don't suppose you still have any source code? I don't think it'll be the same but it might give a clue or two... mike From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 00:12:47 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 01:12:47 -0400 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <200907152034.n6FKYtL7009180@floodgap.com> References: <200907152034.n6FKYtL7009180@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4A5EB6CF.7070909@gmail.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> card. You can put any function onto a PC card that a desktop slot of the >> corresponding type would have supported (and, conversely, you cannot, for >> example, create a 16-bit PC card USB adapter with USB ports; the necessary >> resources and data rates don't exist on the ISA bus, a PCI slot is >> required). > > I have personally seen a 16-bit USB PCMCIA card, which are much sought after > by older Mac laptop owners who do not have CardBus (such as 1400s, 5300s, > etc.). They are practically unobtanium, but they did exist. As did ISA USB cards, for that matter. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 00:14:19 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 01:14:19 -0400 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <4A5E4136.5090503@gmail.com> References: <738817.53169.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A5E4136.5090503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A5EB72B.7000807@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Lots of acronymitis back then. Still a lot now, but users have had >> more time to absorb some of it. > > At least folk don't try to turn it back into a word, like they insist on > doing with some acronyms (e.g. "sequel", ugh). We could have ended up > with "puccumsia" :-) Are you aware that the acronym "sequel" pre-dates the abbreviation "SQL" by a significant amount of time? Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 00:17:25 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 01:17:25 -0400 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <4A5E4F26.9030601@gmail.com> References: <738817.53169.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A5E4136.5090503@gmail.com> <4A5E4F26.9030601@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A5EB7E5.20102@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: >>>> Lots of acronymitis back then. Still a lot now, but users have had >>>> more time to absorb some of it. >>> At least folk don't try to turn it back into a word, like they insist on >>> doing with some acronyms (e.g. "sequel", ugh). >> >> I hear that one pronounced as letters "EssCueEll" and as a word >> "sequel", but I've never seen anyone try to write it any way other >> than SQL. Are you saying you've seen it written that way? > > No, just pronounced that way. When IBM first developed the language, it was called SEQUEL. It was renamed to SQL later, because of a trademark issue. The pronunciation "sequel" is older than the abbreviation "SQL". Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 16 00:21:04 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 22:21:04 -0700 Subject: Micropolis 1015-2 floppy drive In-Reply-To: <01CA05A5.2BC42CE0@MSE_D03> References: <01CA05A5.2BC42CE0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <4A5E5650.29704.3968CF9B@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jul 2009 at 23:36, M H Stein wrote: > -----------Original Message: > > Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 10:02:24 -0500 > From: Chris Elmquist > Subject: Micropolis 1015-2 floppy drive > > Does anyone have specs or even better original documents for a > Micropolis 1015-2 (aka mod II) 5.25" floppy drive? I have two > connected to a Micropolis designed floppy controller in an old S-100 > system. I'll check--we used them and their blue-handled predecessors at Durango between ca. 1977-79. I've still got a 1015-II and a 1016-II sitting on the shelf--heavy buggers, with a very slow track-to-track seek. But the way they're built, they'll still be here when the cockroaches rise to replace man. They're basically the same drive, with some very minor mechanical modifications for the drive-insertion microswitch--the PCB is the same. The older 1014? 1012? drives didn't have the "spin the motor during insertion" circuity and they mangled diskette center hubs mercilessly. I didn't see any point in keeping them around so I dumped them some years back. I may have some docs on them, but it'll take a lot of digging. But yeah, single-sided, 100 tpi. ISTR that track-to-track is at least 15 msec. One notable thing is that they have the Micropolis pinout-- e.g. READY on pin 6. I think the 1015's added an edge connector where the earlier ones had only a header for the signal cable connection. ISTR VG used them in a hard-sector application, but we used them as soft-sector GCR (we used a WD1781 as the basis of the controller-- anyone have any of those?) at a somewhat elevated data rate (the drive PCB was slightly tweaked). 12 sectors of 512 bytes per track. I wrote all of the floppy driver code, so I still have a pretty good memory of them. Eventually we replaced them with Tandon TM-100-4M drives; Micropolis was having a miserable time getting the double-sided version of the 1015/1016 to work and there was the seek-time problem, as well as their non-competitive pricing and we ran out of patience. We put our own PCBs and tach circuits on the Tandons--the standard ones didn't cut the mustard. We also briefly used some 100 tpi drives from CDC/MPI that were pretty awful mechanically. I still have the sample 1115 drive that Micropolis dropped off. Still the slow leadscrew positioner, but with buffered seek and a MOS technology processor on board. These were DSDD and could be had in 96 or 100 tpi versions and had a strange mechanical arrangement-- reminds me of an old Fokker airplane engine--when you open the latch on the drive, the positioner assembly, stepper motor, leadscrew and all, swings out of the way. Cast body, not steel plate, like the older drives. A curious drive, but still seeks slowly, even if it is buffered. It was probably a good idea for Micropolis to get out of the floppy business after that. Wonder why I didn't receive Chris' original message? cctech is supposed to be posted to cctalk, is it not? --Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 00:24:18 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 01:24:18 -0400 Subject: FT: CDC Cy 960 In-Reply-To: <4A5EA96B.9040009@atarimuseum.com> References: <4A5EA96B.9040009@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4A5EB982.7060309@gmail.com> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I think Sridhar just got his new 15KV stepdown transformer installed > next to his house with a direct feed to Indian Point Nuclear Power Plant > #3, he should have enough power for the system and air conditioning for > it ;-) Oh, God. I wish. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 00:54:31 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 01:54:31 -0400 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <4A5E80D1.2020002@arachelian.com> References: <738817.53169.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A5E4136.5090503@gmail.com> <4A5E4F26.9030601@gmail.com> <4A5E5ED1.7060505@arachelian.com> <1247702347.25181.2.camel@pazuzu.kittytangles.net> <4A5E80D1.2020002@arachelian.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 9:22 PM, Ray Arachelian wrote: > Brian Wheeler wrote: >> I suppose the pronunciation of "etc" is a flamewar waiting to happen as >> well :) >> > It's always "Et-Cee" short for et-cetera. ?(let the flames begin.) I usually say 'et-cee', but I also frequently spell it out "ee-tee-cee" for folks. I do _not_ say "et-cetera", though I have heard that many times. > (I've always found it odd that etc wasn't called something like /conf, > but of course, in the early Unixen, there were binaries in /etc so it > really was an et cetera directory.) Make sense (my direct UNIX experience only goes back to 4.0BSD and 2.9BSD, though I do plan to play with some older stuff in the semi-near future). > Another fun one is what to call "vi" - (I always called vai, never veee > aye - that can start a flame fest too) I learned 'veee aye' 25 years ago and still call it that. If it's short for "vi"sual editor, shouldn't it be "vih" then? ;-) > but if anyone calls it 6, they'll get slapped with a tuna. :-) I think I heard someone call it that once, but I also think they were trolling. > fsck (pronounced fisk) is fun too... it almost sounds like a word.. > "That fsck'ing volume got corrupted again." Never heard that pronounced as a word, just spelled out. Then there's the old joke about the university help desk dude who's trying to help a co-ed with a problem with her terminal session... "let me do a 'ps' on your 'tty'... you do and I'll knock your teeth out!" -ethan From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Jul 16 01:57:11 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 07:57:11 +0100 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380907151715q6501cf8ft7abc10282ea3a1f@mail.gmail.com> References: <68BEAAEBE3C7431D91E067ED9330DDD2@barry> <6dbe3c380907151715q6501cf8ft7abc10282ea3a1f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1247727431.12932.29.camel@elric> On Wed, 2009-07-15 at 19:15 -0500, Brian Lanning wrote: > Secondly, I think it would serve a lot of us here if everyone were > aware of Aperger's Syndrome. I have it, and probably a very > significant percentage of people who read this mail list have it as > well. People who have it could have a several opinions about it. You > could for example, believe that you're right and that nothing is wrong > with you, and that you're completely normal, in spite of lacking an > adequate frame of reference with which to compare your experience. > Or, you could accept that you have it, but conclude that you're manner > of thinking, behaving and being is better than that of everyone else > and refuse to modify your behavior in an attempt to better cohabitate > with your neighbors. Or, you could accept that you have it and decide > to work toward learning some people skills in an attempt to at least > partially improve the opinions of the people you meet. Or, you could accept that Asperger's Syndrome is a load of nonsense made up by a desperate but unremarkable doctor wanting to make his mark in his chosen field, and used to excuse an entirely fixable lack of social skills. Think you might be an Aspie? Here's some free self-help advice - as Chuck Pahalniuk might say, "You are not a unique and beautiful snowflake". Furthermore, the world does not now, did not in the past and will not in the future revolve around you and your needs. In a related effect, no-one is going to change the way they behave just to accomodate you, and nor should they have to. As a friend of mine said many years ago after his parents took him to a clinical psychologist, "So it turns out I have Asperger's, and all this time here was me thinking I was just being a dick." Gordon From chrise at pobox.com Wed Jul 15 10:02:24 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 10:02:24 -0500 Subject: Micropolis 1015-2 floppy drive Message-ID: <20090715150224.GP3022@n0jcf.net> Does anyone have specs or even better original documents for a Micropolis 1015-2 (aka mod II) 5.25" floppy drive? I have two connected to a Micropolis designed floppy controller in an old S-100 system. My memory tells me these were single sided, double density, 77 track, 100 tpi drives. But I may be confusing them with other Micropolis models that were used in this particular S-100 system around the same time. The S-100 system was built by Multi-Tech Systems Inc (the modem guys) here in St. Paul, MN around 1980,81. It is a model MT-500 and is a clone of an R2E design that came to market around the same time. I wrote portions of the PROM and CP/M BIOS for this thing when I was in highschool. I, of course, saved many pieces of the things and am preparing to bring one of them back online soon. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From ynadeau at hotmail.com Wed Jul 15 18:36:38 2009 From: ynadeau at hotmail.com (Yves Nadeau) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 19:36:38 -0400 Subject: Manual Message-ID: Hi, Don't you have manual for 28-277 Science Fair Radio Shack? Thanks, Y Nadeau From chrise at pobox.com Wed Jul 15 23:52:04 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 23:52:04 -0500 Subject: Micropolis 1015-2 floppy drive In-Reply-To: <01CA05A5.2BC42CE0@MSE_D03> References: <01CA05A5.2BC42CE0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <20090716045204.GZ3022@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (07/15/2009 at 11:36PM -0400), M H Stein wrote: > > Your memory's pretty good; they are indeed SS/DD 100TPI; there's > also a 1016-2 which looks like pretty well the same drive. > > Vector Graphic used these drives with a Micropolis controller; I have > two VG systems that use them (with hard sector disks, FWIW). > > The bare mechs were also used in Commodore 8050 dual disk drives > (as well as Tandon and MPI) but with custom electronics. > > You can find a maintenance manual (26MB) at: > www.vector-archive.org > in the VG Docs CD folder. > > The Micropolis controller manual is in the Manuals folder. > > Good luck! Very cool! Thank you. I've grabbed some very useful stuff. Much appreciated. I've had some success building a 10-hole hard sector emulator using 3.5" drives and so the 16-hole Micropolis stuff is the next mission to emulate on 3.5"-- but in the meantime, I'll use the 1015-2 assuming they are still workable and then also have a line on some Tandon 100-4M which are also 100 tpi drives. Thanks again! Chris -- Chris Elmquist From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Jul 16 07:00:37 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 09:00:37 -0300 Subject: An interesting ebay find and what to do with scsi do-dads References: <6dbe3c380907142002y8ff5f20w29bb6ec2f5b0e466@mail.gmail.com><075b01ca0543$e85ee000$951c19bb@desktaba> <6dbe3c380907152041j6e96b653h9ca663f60000c4ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <123601ca060e$62f1e810$951c19bb@desktaba> Here's the ebay link. It has a couple pictures of the outside. The green thing in the middle is the memory card reader. The white stripe is masking tape covering slots for a couple other memory card formats. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=320392731526 =================== Thanks Brian! Although it has a IBM sticker on the back, is a pretty common "media cabinet" used for creating CD/DVD copiers. I've seen some around here. Doesn't looks like the media booth I'm used to see in photo shops. Alexandre, PU1BZZ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 08:51:27 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 08:51:27 -0500 Subject: An interesting ebay find and what to do with scsi do-dads In-Reply-To: <1247701057.12932.18.camel@elric> References: <6dbe3c380907142002y8ff5f20w29bb6ec2f5b0e466@mail.gmail.com> <1247701057.12932.18.camel@elric> Message-ID: <4A5F305F.3070400@gmail.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > That sounds like part of a photo processing booth. They had a couple of > CD drives, a Zip drive, IIRC an LS120 and a multi-card reader (possibly > with CF, SD/MMC, SM and MemoryStick). Y'know, I just had the same thought a couple of minutes before reading your post - but I've never seen one with a floppy drive (or LS120) before, plus they've all been in custom cases (which include the control logic) rather than something that 'looks' like a PC and needs to connect elsewhere. That's on the public-facing side, though, so quite possibly the back room equipment was different! Wonder what the cut-out which would take a small D-shell connector is for on the back of the case? From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 09:51:52 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 09:51:52 -0500 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <4A5EB72B.7000807@gmail.com> References: <738817.53169.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A5E4136.5090503@gmail.com> <4A5EB72B.7000807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A5F3E88.6090100@gmail.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> Lots of acronymitis back then. Still a lot now, but users have had >>> more time to absorb some of it. >> >> At least folk don't try to turn it back into a word, like they insist >> on doing with some acronyms (e.g. "sequel", ugh). We could have ended >> up with "puccumsia" :-) > > Are you aware that the acronym "sequel" pre-dates the abbreviation "SQL" > by a significant amount of time? Interesting - and no! So did it also originally stand for something (semantic query language, maybe? :) or was it just a name picked out of a hat, or was there some other reason it was given that name? cheers J. From jim at photojim.ca Thu Jul 16 10:07:09 2009 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 09:07:09 -0600 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) References: <200907152034.n6FKYtL7009180@floodgap.com> <4A5EB6CF.7070909@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8A88FBEDDDAA4AC2AA49B13CB28DB78B@JIMM> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sridhar Ayengar" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 11:12 PM Subject: Re: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) > As did ISA USB cards, for that matter. I could still use one of those, in case someone finds one. For sentimental reasons I have a 486 that is still running. Jim From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jul 16 10:20:58 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 08:20:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <8A88FBEDDDAA4AC2AA49B13CB28DB78B@JIMM> from Jim MacKenzie at "Jul 16, 9 09:07:09 am" Message-ID: <200907161520.n6GFKw1k011342@floodgap.com> > > As did ISA USB cards, for that matter. > > I could still use one of those, in case someone finds one. For sentimental > reasons I have a 486 that is still running. I keep one around (a Cyrix actually) for old DOS games. Some seem happier with ISA than PCI. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Put down your guns, it's Weasel Stomping Day! ------------------------------ From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Jul 16 10:53:19 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 16:53:19 +0100 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <1247727431.12932.29.camel@elric> References: <68BEAAEBE3C7431D91E067ED9330DDD2@barry> <6dbe3c380907151715q6501cf8ft7abc10282ea3a1f@mail.gmail.com> <1247727431.12932.29.camel@elric> Message-ID: <012f01ca062d$8b649440$a22dbcc0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > Or, you could accept that Asperger's Syndrome is a load of nonsense > made > up by a desperate but unremarkable doctor wanting to make his mark in > his chosen field, and used to excuse an entirely fixable lack of social > skills. What facts are you using to make these assertions? > > Think you might be an Aspie? Here's some free self-help advice - as > Chuck Pahalniuk might say, "You are not a unique and beautiful > snowflake". Furthermore, the world does not now, did not in the past > and will not in the future revolve around you and your needs. In a > related effect, no-one is going to change the way they behave just to > accomodate you, and nor should they have to. > Doesn't that mean that everyone else should behave as *you* expect them to? So I and everyone else in the world would have to behave as you expect me to "just to accommodate you"? Regards Rob From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 10:57:28 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 11:57:28 -0400 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <4A5F3E88.6090100@gmail.com> References: <738817.53169.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A5E4136.5090503@gmail.com> <4A5EB72B.7000807@gmail.com> <4A5F3E88.6090100@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A5F4DE8.9030306@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Jules Richardson wrote: >>> Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>> Lots of acronymitis back then. Still a lot now, but users have had >>>> more time to absorb some of it. >>> >>> At least folk don't try to turn it back into a word, like they insist >>> on doing with some acronyms (e.g. "sequel", ugh). We could have ended >>> up with "puccumsia" :-) >> >> Are you aware that the acronym "sequel" pre-dates the abbreviation >> "SQL" by a significant amount of time? > > Interesting - and no! So did it also originally stand for something > (semantic query language, maybe? :) or was it just a name picked out of > a hat, or was there some other reason it was given that name? Structured English QUEry Language. Peace... Sridhar From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu Jul 16 11:25:06 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 12:25:06 -0400 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <1247727431.12932.29.camel@elric> References: <68BEAAEBE3C7431D91E067ED9330DDD2@barry> <6dbe3c380907151715q6501cf8ft7abc10282ea3a1f@mail.gmail.com> <1247727431.12932.29.camel@elric> Message-ID: <30A8EC76-9FC4-4222-A0E1-80DFE69A56B8@mail.msu.edu> On Jul 16, 2009, at 2:57 AM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Wed, 2009-07-15 at 19:15 -0500, Brian Lanning wrote: > >> Secondly, I think it would serve a lot of us here if everyone were >> aware of Aperger's Syndrome. I have it, and probably a very >> significant percentage of people who read this mail list have it as >> well. People who have it could have a several opinions about it. >> You >> could for example, believe that you're right and that nothing is >> wrong >> with you, and that you're completely normal, in spite of lacking an >> adequate frame of reference with which to compare your experience. >> Or, you could accept that you have it, but conclude that you're >> manner >> of thinking, behaving and being is better than that of everyone else >> and refuse to modify your behavior in an attempt to better cohabitate >> with your neighbors. Or, you could accept that you have it and >> decide >> to work toward learning some people skills in an attempt to at least >> partially improve the opinions of the people you meet. > > Or, you could accept that Asperger's Syndrome is a load of nonsense > made > up by a desperate but unremarkable doctor wanting to make his mark in > his chosen field, and used to excuse an entirely fixable lack of > social > skills. > > Think you might be an Aspie? Here's some free self-help advice - as > Chuck Pahalniuk might say, "You are not a unique and beautiful > snowflake". Oh, yes, please -- let's have an argument about Asperger's here, based on "insightful" quotes from frigging "Fight Club." Or better yet, no. Josh > Furthermore, the world does not now, did not in the past > and will not in the future revolve around you and your needs. In a > related effect, no-one is going to change the way they behave just to > accomodate you, and nor should they have to. > > As a friend of mine said many years ago after his parents took him > to a > clinical psychologist, "So it turns out I have Asperger's, and all > this > time here was me thinking I was just being a dick." > > Gordon > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 16 11:33:40 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 09:33:40 -0700 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <012f01ca062d$8b649440$a22dbcc0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: , <1247727431.12932.29.camel@elric>, <012f01ca062d$8b649440$a22dbcc0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4A5EF3F4.23772.3BD05229@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Jul 2009 at 16:53, Robert Jarratt wrote: > Doesn't that mean that everyone else should behave as *you* expect > them to? So I and everyone else in the world would have to behave as > you expect me to "just to accommodate you"? Please--I'm willing to accept that one or both of you may be professionally qualified and a published authority in this area, but there are more appropriate forums in which to discuss this. Thank you, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 16 13:27:44 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 19:27:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <4A5E80D1.2020002@arachelian.com> from "Ray Arachelian" at Jul 15, 9 09:22:25 pm Message-ID: > > Brian Wheeler wrote: > > I suppose the pronunciation of "etc" is a flamewar waiting to happen as > > well :) > > > > > It's always "Et-Cee" short for et-cetera. (let the flames begin.) I've always pronouced it 'in full' as 'et cetera'. > Another fun one is what to call "vi" - (I always called vai, never veee > aye - that can start a flame fest too) but if anyone calls it 6, they'll Again, to me it's 'Vee Eye'. > get slapped with a tuna. :-) You have my permison to some and do a fish slapping dance on my mother, who, when I first installed Minix years ago (it was, IIRC, before Linux was first announced), read the start of the manual and said 'What's Six?'. > > fsck (pronounced fisk) is fun too... it almost sounds like a word.. > "That fsck'ing volume got corrupted again." Fuss-Chuck here :-) The one that really annoys me is to areviate 'motherboard' as 'MoBo' and pronounce it 'Mow-Bow'. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 16 13:21:00 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 19:21:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cleaning an LK201 Keyboard In-Reply-To: <4A5E67A4.2070802@compsys.to> from "Jerome H. Fine" at Jul 15, 9 07:35:00 pm Message-ID: > >>I just cleaned an LK201 keyboard. It was actually quite clean with only a > >> > >How far did you dsmantle it? The casing comes off quite easily (1/4" > >hex-head screws under the plastic feet, then slide the keyboard itself > >out of the lower part). Yo can separate the encoder PCB from the keyboard > >itself, but for cleaning I don't think it's worth doing (it is for > >faultfinding/reapir). > > > > > I did not dismantle the keyboard at all. Given how easy it is to remove the casing. and how much easier it is to clean it when it's removed, I would alwaus do that. Mind you, a magnetic 1/4" nutdriver sure helps in getting the screws back in. You will use some interesting words if you have to get them in stragith with a normal tool. > > On the other hand, the PF4 key no longer seems to be sticking. > > >You can remove the keycaps (see below), but don't try to take the keyboard > >assembly apart. It's heat-staked, and I've never managed to get one to go > >back together and stay together! > > > > > I have heard that to be the situation with the LK201. Thank you for the > reminder. I have taken a completely dead one apart (carefully cut away the heat stakes) to see how it was made, and to see if repairs were possible. I never managed to get it to stay together again. Had I been able to buy some new key hosings (presumanly with long plastic peges that are formed over into the heat stakes), I could have done something (possibly by gutting threads on said pags and using nuts to fix it together -- that way it would be trivial to repair in the future), but DEC supplied no spares (and this was when the LK201 was a current product). > The stains could be sufficiently removed from the hard-to-get-at sides > to be eliminated from > being seen, although probably not totally removed. My worry with things like this is that if the stain appears around the holes where the keys come out, presumably something has been spilt onto the keyboard, and there still some gunge inside. In which case I'd want to take it apart to see where it had gone. > As I found, the PF4 key is no longer sticking, but maybe someone else > can use the suggestion. > > As always, thank you very much for your excellent help, advice and > suggestions. Thank you :-) > > If you can ever use any help with software for RT-11 systems, please ask. Alas I don't have an RT11 license... -tony From feldman.r at comcast.net Thu Jul 16 14:02:18 2009 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 19:02:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Apollo Guidance Computer on the BBC Message-ID: <114392463.2059111247770938079.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Story and videos about making and programming the Apollo Guidance Computer. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8148730.stm Bob (Sorry if someone else has posted this, but I get the digest.) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 14:12:09 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 15:12:09 -0400 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: References: <4A5E80D1.2020002@arachelian.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 2:27 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> fsck (pronounced fisk) is fun too... it almost sounds like a word.. >> "That fsck'ing volume got corrupted again." > > Fuss-Chuck here :-) F-sick is occasionally heard here. > The one that really annoys me is to areviate 'motherboard' as 'MoBo' and > pronounce it 'Mow-Bow'. 'puter ("pewter"), or worse yet, "pooter" (the redneck pronunciation) as a diminutive/dismissive term for "*COM*puter". Bleah! -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jul 16 14:21:01 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 15:21:01 -0400 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: References: <4A5E80D1.2020002@arachelian.com> Message-ID: On Jul 16, 2009, at 3:12 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> The one that really annoys me is to areviate 'motherboard' as >> 'MoBo' and >> pronounce it 'Mow-Bow'. > > 'puter ("pewter"), or worse yet, "pooter" (the redneck pronunciation) > as a diminutive/dismissive term for "*COM*puter". Bleah! "Distro". [head explodes] -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 15:10:21 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 16:10:21 -0400 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: References: <4A5E80D1.2020002@arachelian.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 3:21 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jul 16, 2009, at 3:12 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> 'puter ("pewter"), or worse yet, "pooter" (the redneck pronunciation) >> as a diminutive/dismissive term for "*COM*puter". ?Bleah! > > ?"Distro". ? [head explodes] That one I can at least understand because of Ozzie "-o" slang ("Medico" for doctor, "Doco" for Documentation, "Smoko" for smoke break, among numerous examples). I have no idea if that's where "Distro" originates, but it at least follows a well established dialectical pattern. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jul 16 15:15:27 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 16:15:27 -0400 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: References: <4A5E80D1.2020002@arachelian.com> Message-ID: On Jul 16, 2009, at 4:10 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> 'puter ("pewter"), or worse yet, "pooter" (the redneck >>> pronunciation) >>> as a diminutive/dismissive term for "*COM*puter". Bleah! >> >> "Distro". [head explodes] > > That one I can at least understand because of Ozzie "-o" slang > ("Medico" for doctor, "Doco" for Documentation, "Smoko" for smoke > break, among numerous examples). I have no idea if that's where > "Distro" originates, but it at least follows a well established > dialectical pattern. Yes. One that annoys the living crap out of me. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From slawmaster at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 15:30:46 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 13:30:46 -0700 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: References: <4A5E80D1.2020002@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <7d3530220907161330h32b70c1cm31f6e5f22bbbed88@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 1:15 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jul 16, 2009, at 4:10 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>> >>>> 'puter ("pewter"), or worse yet, "pooter" (the redneck pronunciation) >>>> as a diminutive/dismissive term for "*COM*puter". ?Bleah! >>> >>> ?"Distro". ? [head explodes] >> >> That one I can at least understand because of Ozzie "-o" slang >> ("Medico" for doctor, "Doco" for Documentation, "Smoko" for smoke >> break, among numerous examples). ?I have no idea if that's where >> "Distro" originates, but it at least follows a well established >> dialectical pattern. > > ?Yes. ?One that annoys the living crap out of me. ;) > > ? ? ? ? ?-Dave > You don't like this convention? Righto. John -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From evan at snarc.net Thu Jul 16 15:31:10 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 16:31:10 -0400 Subject: Apollo Guidance Computer on the BBC In-Reply-To: <114392463.2059111247770938079.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <114392463.2059111247770938079.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4A5F8E0E.2060904@snarc.net> > > Story and videos about making and programming the Apollo Guidance Computer. > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8148730.stm > A good reason to attend VCF East, Sept. 12-13 here in New Jersey -- our museum has an Apollo Guidance Computer! Nothing like seeing such things in person. :) From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jul 16 15:35:01 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 16:35:01 -0400 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <7d3530220907161330h32b70c1cm31f6e5f22bbbed88@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A5E80D1.2020002@arachelian.com> <7d3530220907161330h32b70c1cm31f6e5f22bbbed88@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3CC1B60D-41F6-472C-99AD-E455685502CE@neurotica.com> On Jul 16, 2009, at 4:30 PM, John Floren wrote: >>>>> 'puter ("pewter"), or worse yet, "pooter" (the redneck >>>>> pronunciation) >>>>> as a diminutive/dismissive term for "*COM*puter". Bleah! >>>> >>>> "Distro". [head explodes] >>> >>> That one I can at least understand because of Ozzie "-o" slang >>> ("Medico" for doctor, "Doco" for Documentation, "Smoko" for smoke >>> break, among numerous examples). I have no idea if that's where >>> "Distro" originates, but it at least follows a well established >>> dialectical pattern. >> >> Yes. One that annoys the living crap out of me. ;) > > You don't like this convention? Righto. [head explodes again] ;) -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 16 15:44:28 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 13:44:28 -0700 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: References: <4A5E80D1.2020002@arachelian.com> from "Ray Arachelian" at Jul 15, 9 09:22:25 pm, Message-ID: <4A5F2EBC.19636.3CB5FE8C@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Jul 2009 at 19:27, Tony Duell wrote: > > It's always "Et-Cee" short for et-cetera. (let the flames begin.) > > I've always pronouced it 'in full' as 'et cetera'. I've never heard it pronounced as anything but "et cetera". The other variants must be regional. On the other hand, I say "viz." as "namely", having gotten too many groans from saying "videlicet". I refuse to say "vizz". "Etc." might well be said "and so on" or "and so forth", in much the same way that "i.e." is said "that is" or "e.g." is said "for example". Clarity counts for a lot. --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jul 16 15:48:44 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 13:48:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <3CC1B60D-41F6-472C-99AD-E455685502CE@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Jul 16, 9 04:35:01 pm" Message-ID: <200907162048.n6GKmjnt019254@floodgap.com> > >>>> "Distro". [head explodes] > >>> > >>> That one I can at least understand because of Ozzie "-o" slang > >>> ("Medico" for doctor, "Doco" for Documentation, "Smoko" for smoke > >>> break, among numerous examples). I have no idea if that's where > >>> "Distro" originates, but it at least follows a well established > >>> dialectical pattern. > >> > >> Yes. One that annoys the living crap out of me. ;) > > > > You don't like this convention? Righto. > > [head explodes again] ;) Problems with your ammo? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The only thing to fear is fearlessness -- R. E. M. ------------------------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jul 16 15:54:37 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 16:54:37 -0400 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <200907162048.n6GKmjnt019254@floodgap.com> References: <200907162048.n6GKmjnt019254@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <234560CD-C133-4EFB-B125-CEACA6D1D079@neurotica.com> On Jul 16, 2009, at 4:48 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>>>> "Distro". [head explodes] >>>>> >>>>> That one I can at least understand because of Ozzie "-o" slang >>>>> ("Medico" for doctor, "Doco" for Documentation, "Smoko" for smoke >>>>> break, among numerous examples). I have no idea if that's where >>>>> "Distro" originates, but it at least follows a well established >>>>> dialectical pattern. >>>> >>>> Yes. One that annoys the living crap out of me. ;) >>> >>> You don't like this convention? Righto. >> >> [head explodes again] ;) > > Problems with your ammo? [dave makes clicking sound] -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Jul 16 15:54:56 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 22:54:56 +0200 Subject: Apollo Guidance Computer on the BBC In-Reply-To: <4A5F8E0E.2060904@snarc.net> References: <114392463.2059111247770938079.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4A5F8E0E.2060904@snarc.net> Message-ID: > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Evan Koblentz > Verzonden: donderdag 16 juli 2009 22:31 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: Apollo Guidance Computer on the BBC > > > > > Story and videos about making and programming the Apollo > Guidance Computer. > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8148730.stm > > > A good reason to attend VCF East, Sept. 12-13 here in New > Jersey -- our museum has an Apollo Guidance Computer! > Nothing like seeing such things > in person. :) > Yep, but a bit of a travel for us in the old world ;-) So anyone with a private jet who's going from this side of the big water ? -Rik From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 15:56:23 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 16:56:23 -0400 Subject: Apollo Guidance Computer on the BBC In-Reply-To: <4A5F8E0E.2060904@snarc.net> References: <114392463.2059111247770938079.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4A5F8E0E.2060904@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 4:31 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> >> Story and videos about making and programming the Apollo Guidance >> Computer. >> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8148730.stm > > A good reason to attend VCF East, Sept. 12-13 here in New Jersey -- our > museum has an Apollo Guidance Computer! ?Nothing like seeing such things in > person. ? :) Very nice. Is it a static display or is it intact enough to run code? -ethan From evan at snarc.net Thu Jul 16 16:09:42 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 17:09:42 -0400 Subject: Apollo Guidance Computer on the BBC In-Reply-To: References: <114392463.2059111247770938079.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4A5F8E0E.2060904@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4A5F9716.2050007@snarc.net> > >>> Story and videos about making and programming the Apollo Guidance >>> Computer. >>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8148730.stm >>> >> A good reason to attend VCF East, Sept. 12-13 here in New Jersey -- our >> museum has an Apollo Guidance Computer! Nothing like seeing such things in >> person. :) >> > Very nice. Is it a static display or is it intact enough to run code? > Static -- the guy who owns it told me, "The only way to get it to work is to have the rest of the spacecraft!" Specifically we have the CPU unit, an impressive exhibit of posters, and an emulator. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 16:18:19 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 17:18:19 -0400 Subject: Apollo Guidance Computer on the BBC In-Reply-To: <4A5F9716.2050007@snarc.net> References: <114392463.2059111247770938079.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4A5F8E0E.2060904@snarc.net> <4A5F9716.2050007@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 5:09 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> Very nice. ?Is it a static display or is it intact enough to run code? >> > > Static -- the guy who owns it told me, "The only way to get it to work is to > have the rest of the spacecraft!" Well... or emulate the inputs sufficiently (not a trivial task, I know). > Specifically we have the CPU unit, an impressive exhibit of posters, and an > emulator. It's still very nice to see the real gear up close and in person. I can't make plans across the country that far in the future, but I'll keep that item in mind as I weigh my options. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 16 16:19:07 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 22:19:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <3CC1B60D-41F6-472C-99AD-E455685502CE@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jul 16, 9 04:35:01 pm Message-ID: [...] > >>>> "Distro". [head explodes] [...] > [head explodes again] ;) I've heard of (and indeed heard) heads crashing, but never exploding... -tony From evan at snarc.net Thu Jul 16 16:25:53 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 17:25:53 -0400 Subject: Apollo Guidance Computer on the BBC In-Reply-To: References: <114392463.2059111247770938079.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4A5F8E0E.2060904@snarc.net> <4A5F9716.2050007@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4A5F9AE1.50905@snarc.net> > > It's still very nice to see the real gear up close and in person. I can't make plans across the country that far in the future, but I'll keep that item in mind as I weigh my options. > By car, we're around 60 minutes south of Manhattan and 90 minutes east-northeast of Philadelphia. From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 19:17:32 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 19:17:32 -0500 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <1247727431.12932.29.camel@elric> References: <68BEAAEBE3C7431D91E067ED9330DDD2@barry> <6dbe3c380907151715q6501cf8ft7abc10282ea3a1f@mail.gmail.com> <1247727431.12932.29.camel@elric> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380907161717s62b90ed1n154e01554a9fca34@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 1:57 AM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Wed, 2009-07-15 at 19:15 -0500, Brian Lanning wrote: > Or, you could accept that Asperger's Syndrome is a load of nonsense made > up by a desperate but unremarkable doctor wanting to make his mark in > his chosen field, and used to excuse an entirely fixable lack of social > skills. Maybe I was a bit too subtle. I think we're agreeing with each other. I was suggesting that people with AS can certainly learn people skills and should. But many conclude that they don't have to. I don't think anyone, even the psychologists, are suggesting that people with AS can't learn people skills. I think AS is very real. But since the psychological community doesn't understand it very well, it defies attempts to classify or describe it, and to differentiate it from autism in general. brian From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 19:19:40 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 19:19:40 -0500 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <30A8EC76-9FC4-4222-A0E1-80DFE69A56B8@mail.msu.edu> References: <68BEAAEBE3C7431D91E067ED9330DDD2@barry> <6dbe3c380907151715q6501cf8ft7abc10282ea3a1f@mail.gmail.com> <1247727431.12932.29.camel@elric> <30A8EC76-9FC4-4222-A0E1-80DFE69A56B8@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380907161719w33b2c456j9b4f96bc26a17c86@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 11:25 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Oh, yes, please -- let's have an argument about Asperger's here, based on > "insightful" quotes from frigging "Fight Club." > > Or better yet, no. The first rule of Asperger's Syndrome: Don't talk about Asperger's Syndrome. :-D brian From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 19:39:12 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 19:39:12 -0500 Subject: An interesting ebay find and what to do with scsi do-dads In-Reply-To: <4A5F305F.3070400@gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380907142002y8ff5f20w29bb6ec2f5b0e466@mail.gmail.com> <1247701057.12932.18.camel@elric> <4A5F305F.3070400@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380907161739y4630bc25q7794c176c7ae1612@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 8:51 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Wonder what the cut-out which would take a small D-shell connector is for on > the back of the case? In person, it looks a little big to be a d-shell opening. I'm not sure what it is. There's a rectangular knockout under it for the scsi id selector that isn't there. brian From rcini at optonline.net Thu Jul 16 20:10:23 2009 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 21:10:23 -0400 Subject: YE-380 floppy schematics Message-ID: All: I?m troubleshooting my IMSAI that has YE-380 high-density 5.25? floppy drives replacing 8? drives, and I?m looking for schematics of the drive. The YE-380 drives were originally used in the IBM PC/AT, but I?m sure other machines used them too. I did some googling earlier and didn?t come up with anything useful. Does anyone have a pointer to the schematics or a pdf/jpg you could send me? Thanks! Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 16 21:05:42 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 19:05:42 -0700 Subject: YE-380 floppy schematics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A5F7A06.26787.3DDC1328@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Jul 2009 at 21:10, Richard A. Cini wrote: > I?m troubleshooting my IMSAI that has YE-380 high-density 5.25? > floppy > drives replacing 8? drives, and I?m looking for schematics of the > drive. The YE-380 drives were originally used in the IBM PC/AT, but > I?m sure other machines used them too. > > I did some googling earlier and didn?t come up with anything > useful. > Does anyone have a pointer to the schematics or a pdf/jpg you could > send me? Look at your drive again--it's a "YD-380", no? http://maben.homeip.net:8217/static/S100/ye%20data/diskette/YE%20Data% 20YD-380%205.25%20inch%20HH%20HD%20Floppy.pdf --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 16 21:07:57 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 19:07:57 -0700 Subject: YE-380 floppy schematics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A5F7A8D.16136.3DDE2270@cclist.sydex.com> Also on scribd: http://www.scribd.com/doc/1034169/Tech-History-Texas-Instruments- FDL523006-YD380-HH-5in-DD-Maint-Sep83 --Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Jul 16 22:14:36 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 20:14:36 -0700 Subject: TMI (was RE: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....)) Message-ID: Well, maybe not on a classic computing mailing list? I read pretty much the entire thread trying to figure out how this particular branch occurred, and I'm still mystified. Me, I suffer from ADOS: Attention Deficit... Ooh, Shiny! That explains the contents of my basement. Excuse me, I need to go figure out why my VAX 4000/300 is giving me an error code of 'E' on bootup. It's been such a good machine for so long. In fact, one of my co-workers learned assembly language programming on it when it was the departmental machine for a state university here in Washington. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brian Lanning [brianlanning at gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 5:19 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 11:25 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Oh, yes, please -- let's have an argument about Asperger's here, based on > "insightful" quotes from frigging "Fight Club." > > Or better yet, no. The first rule of Asperger's Syndrome: Don't talk about Asperger's Syndrome. :-D brian From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Jul 16 22:57:12 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 00:57:12 -0300 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) References: <4A5E80D1.2020002@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <19e001ca0694$06925420$951c19bb@desktaba> >That one I can at least understand because of Ozzie "-o" slang >("Medico" for doctor, "Doco" for Documentation, "Smoko" for smoke >break, among numerous examples). I have no idea if that's where Medico is doctor in Portuguese :) >"Distro" originates, but it at least follows a well established >dialectical pattern. The-times-are-a-changing... :o) From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Jul 16 22:58:09 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 00:58:09 -0300 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) References: Message-ID: <19e101ca0694$07b06e50$951c19bb@desktaba> >> [head explodes again] ;) > I've heard of (and indeed heard) heads crashing, but never exploding... See some crash test videos, you'll see lots of them exploding in no-airbag veicles :) From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jul 16 23:30:31 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 21:30:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <19e001ca0694$06925420$951c19bb@desktaba> from Alexandre Souza at "Jul 17, 9 00:57:12 am" Message-ID: <200907170430.n6H4UV9n012736@floodgap.com> > > That one I can at least understand because of Ozzie "-o" slang > > ("Medico" for doctor, "Doco" for Documentation, "Smoko" for smoke > > break, among numerous examples). I have no idea if that's where > > Medico is doctor in Portuguese :) Spanish too, to add another lingo. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Hidden DOS secret: add BUGS=OFF to your CONFIG.SYS. ------------------------ From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jul 16 23:30:26 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 21:30:26 -0700 Subject: TMI (was RE: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 8:14 PM -0700 7/16/09, Ian King wrote: >Me, I suffer from ADOS: Attention Deficit... Ooh, Shiny! That >explains the contents of my basement. Excuse me, I need to go >figure out why my VAX 4000/300 is giving me an error code of 'E' on >bootup. It's been such Ian, This is without a doubt the best post I've seen in this entire thread! Actually it's about the best I've read all year. Why do we stay on this list year after year? This is a very unhealthy place. :-( Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From chrise at pobox.com Thu Jul 16 06:43:08 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 06:43:08 -0500 Subject: Micropolis 1015-2 floppy drive In-Reply-To: <01CA05AD.CB54E4E0@MSE_D03> References: <01CA05AD.CB54E4E0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <20090716114308.GR2482@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (07/16/2009 at 12:38AM -0400), M H Stein wrote: > ... > I wrote portions of the PROM and CP/M BIOS for this thing when I was > in highschool. I, of course, saved many pieces of the things and am > preparing to bring one of them back online soon. > > Chris > ------------Reply: > > Hmm, I wonder if that's the same PROM as in my VG systems; I've > tried to replace the 1015-IIs with 1.2MB HD drives and although CP/M > is quite happy with those, the system won't boot from them, so it > looks like there's something fussy in the boot code in the Micropolis > PROM. I don't suppose you still have any source code? I don't think > it'll be the same but it might give a clue or two... I doubt it would be in your VG system(s) as this work was proprietary to Multi-Tech. I do still have source but it is on the floppies that I want to read with the 1015-2 drives (and of course the machine that hasn't been fired up in about 25 yrs). That is the goal though-- to get access to that code. I think we can find the boot routines and I do remember that we didn't mess with those-- they were just black box code that we used as is (since, then, we didn't really understand how it worked ;-) ) Most of the PROM code I did was for the console-- which was an 8275 CRT controller and 8279 keyboard controller built onto the main board of this Multi-Tech "all-in-one" design. It'll be a few weeks yet before I clear the bench of other projects but I will get back to you if I can breath life into this machine and get at that code. I seem to remember too that there is a PROM on the floppy controller board and I don't recall ever having source for that... so we might be out of luck if they go execute from that. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From chrise at pobox.com Thu Jul 16 06:50:27 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 06:50:27 -0500 Subject: Micropolis 1015-2 floppy drive In-Reply-To: <20090716114308.GR2482@n0jcf.net> References: <01CA05AD.CB54E4E0@MSE_D03> <20090716114308.GR2482@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20090716115027.GS2482@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (07/16/2009 at 06:43AM -0500), Chris Elmquist wrote: > > I seem to remember too that there is a PROM on the floppy controller > board and I don't recall ever having source for that... so we might be > out of luck if they go execute from that. sorry-- I mean out of luck with any sort of original source code. We can always disassemble the PROM. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From chrise at pobox.com Thu Jul 16 07:01:41 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 07:01:41 -0500 Subject: Micropolis 1015-2 floppy drive In-Reply-To: <4A5E5650.29704.3968CF9B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <01CA05A5.2BC42CE0@MSE_D03> <4A5E5650.29704.3968CF9B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20090716120141.GT2482@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (07/15/2009 at 10:21PM -0700), Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 15 Jul 2009 at 23:36, M H Stein wrote: > > > -----------Original Message: > > > > Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 10:02:24 -0500 > > From: Chris Elmquist > > Subject: Micropolis 1015-2 floppy drive > > > > Does anyone have specs or even better original documents for a > > Micropolis 1015-2 (aka mod II) 5.25" floppy drive? I have two > > connected to a Micropolis designed floppy controller in an old S-100 > > system. > > I'll check--we used them and their blue-handled predecessors at > Durango between ca. 1977-79. Mike Stein pointed me at some VG documentation online which solved the near term problem... so I am set for now. Thanks. > ISTR VG used them in a hard-sector application, but we used them as > soft-sector GCR (we used a WD1781 as the basis of the controller-- > anyone have any of those?) at a somewhat elevated data rate (the > drive PCB was slightly tweaked). 12 sectors of 512 bytes per track. > I wrote all of the floppy driver code, so I still have a pretty good > memory of them. Yes... the Micropolis controller design, which VG and Multi-Tech clearly used as a reference design, is a 16-hole hard sector thing. Multi-Tech also had a GCR controller but I don't have one of those. It was a board chock full of parts including a Z80 I think. It was a PITA to align and very expensive so I opt'd not to obtain one as a parting gift from Multi-Tech. > Eventually we replaced them with Tandon TM-100-4M drives; Micropolis > was having a miserable time getting the double-sided version of the > 1015/1016 to work and there was the seek-time problem, as well as > their non-competitive pricing and we ran out of patience. We put our > own PCBs and tach circuits on the Tandons--the standard ones didn't > cut the mustard. We also briefly used some 100 tpi drives from > CDC/MPI that were pretty awful mechanically. Yup. We played with all of those too. The frusteration due to all the different track densities that were in play at the time is starting to come back to me. I know it caused endless confusion for customers who had these floppies that all looked the same-- same exact part numbers on them-- but couldn't be exchanged between machines because some had 48tpi drives, some 96 and some 100. All because sales people always wanted the customer to buy the latest and largest storage but never considered any backward compatibility with the machines they had bought the week before. Too much fun. > I still have the sample 1115 drive that Micropolis dropped off. > Still the slow leadscrew positioner, but with buffered seek and a MOS > technology processor on board. These were DSDD and could be had in > 96 or 100 tpi versions and had a strange mechanical arrangement-- > reminds me of an old Fokker airplane engine--when you open the latch > on the drive, the positioner assembly, stepper motor, leadscrew and > all, swings out of the way. Cast body, not steel plate, like the > older drives. A curious drive, but still seeks slowly, even if it is > buffered. It was probably a good idea for Micropolis to get out of > the floppy business after that. > > Wonder why I didn't receive Chris' original message? cctech is > supposed to be posted to cctalk, is it not? I sure have a lot of trouble posting to these lists. What I see here is that traffic coming from 'cctalk' has a Reply-To: field that sends it to 'cctech'. If I forget to manually edit that out, then my replies will go to a different list than they originated from. I do know that my original on this thread went to 'cctalk' and not 'cctech'. Should I have sent to both? I assumed that was frowned upon. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From matthew at tyrrelldataservices.com Thu Jul 16 09:00:42 2009 From: matthew at tyrrelldataservices.com (Matthew Tyrrell) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 09:00:42 -0500 Subject: 9-track BOT/EOT markers? In-Reply-To: <4854B8FC.5060400@msu.edu> Message-ID: Kevin, I?m with Tyrrell data services in houston. Did you ever find where to buy those 3m sensing markers for 9 track tape? If you get a chance, please reply From chrise at pobox.com Thu Jul 16 14:06:02 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 14:06:02 -0500 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: References: <4A5E80D1.2020002@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <20090716190602.GH3022@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (07/16/2009 at 07:27PM +0100), Tony Duell wrote: > > fsck (pronounced fisk) is fun too... it almost sounds like a word.. > > "That fsck'ing volume got corrupted again." > > Fuss-Chuck here :-) > > The one that really annoys me is to areviate 'motherboard' as 'MoBo' and > pronounce it 'Mow-Bow'. Are these little solid state things that light up L-E-D's or are they LEADs? You know, like the stuff that's in a shotgun shell? I once encountered an extremely irrate tech support guy in the hall who had just been on the phone for several hours with a customer. It seems they just could not get this very simple thing to work at the customer's end while helping him install some software. Long story short, the customer was just unable to gain superuser access to install the code. They kept telling him to login as root and execute this command. But he continually got invalid (you know, like crippled) user. Finally, the tech support guy said you are typing r-o-o-t right? And the customer says, well, no, "root", r-u-t-e. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From chrise at pobox.com Thu Jul 16 15:53:03 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 15:53:03 -0500 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: References: <4A5E80D1.2020002@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <20090716205303.GI3022@n0jcf.net> oh ya... and why are they "VAXen"? Are there "PDP 11/44en" too? I've got a couple Rainbowen here... At SGI, we had lots of Originen and I did the architecture for the Altix ICEen. A lot of us are Swedes but I don't think can be blamed for this... Jag har tv? bilen men har ingen VAXen. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From teros at doelegal.com Thu Jul 16 17:32:14 2009 From: teros at doelegal.com (Tony Eros) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 18:32:14 -0400 Subject: FT: CDC Cy 960 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <59BC65D6F92F974DB3C16A2D0E3EAB520A4BB82844@inara.doetech.net> Ooh - could I run PLATO on it? Sent from my iPhone On Jul 16, 2009, at 4:03 AM, "William Donzelli" wrote: > There is a good possibility that I will have a CDC Cyber 960 available > for trade soon, along with an Amperif FSD disk array. This is a big > machine - check out cray-cyber.org for details. > > I would be willing to trade for a similar machine, or something else > interesting and old. Or maybe something completely different. > > Located in the NY area. Contact me off list. > > -- > Will From iamvirtual at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 19:15:07 2009 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 18:15:07 -0600 Subject: RSTS-11 media (2nd plea!) Message-ID: <2645f9870907161715l14671b45k571b19ec4004f77b@mail.gmail.com> Hi, I am still desperately seeking RSTS-11 V4.x or earlier for my PDP-11/10 with RK05 drives. I will probably need an older version of DOS/Batch from the same era. If you can help, I would be very grateful. Thanks. --barrym From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jul 17 00:42:52 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 23:42:52 -0600 Subject: FT: CDC Cy 960 In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 16 Jul 2009 18:32:14 -0400. <59BC65D6F92F974DB3C16A2D0E3EAB520A4BB82844@inara.doetech.net> Message-ID: In article <59BC65D6F92F974DB3C16A2D0E3EAB520A4BB82844 at inara.doetech.net>, Tony Eros writes: > Ooh - could I run PLATO on it? I'm not sure, but wouldn't it be cool? I have some terminals! :-) Also, did anyone else notice that cray-cyber.org seems to be down? I haven't been able to connect since Will's message. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jul 17 01:04:42 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 02:04:42 -0400 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <20090716190602.GH3022@n0jcf.net> References: <4A5E80D1.2020002@arachelian.com> <20090716190602.GH3022@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 3:06 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > Are these little solid state things that light up L-E-D's or are they > LEADs? ?You know, like the stuff that's in a shotgun shell? I solder my LED leads with lead and tin ;-) > I once encountered an extremely irrate tech support guy in the hall who > had just been on the phone for several hours with a customer.... > ?Finally, the > tech support guy said you are typing r-o-o-t right? ?And the customer > says, well, no, "root", r-u-t-e. Probably because you didn't tell him to log in as "ruht" (short U sound). From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 17 01:10:02 2009 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 01:10:02 -0500 Subject: 9-track BOT/EOT markers? In-Reply-To: References: <4854B8FC.5060400@msu.edu> Message-ID: YEA, there is a big market for these. Check Office Depot I know what your are asking for, I have cut plenty of tape ends, wild and fast tape hanger as my first job (Apollo data) Grab some reflective tape and cut it up, stick it on 4 ft into the tape unwind for spooling. I bet that sensor responds to anything except brown... Randy > Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 09:00:42 -0500 > Subject: 9-track BOT/EOT markers? > From: matthew at tyrrelldataservices.com > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > > Kevin, > I?m with Tyrrell data services in houston. Did you ever find where to buy > those 3m sensing markers for 9 track tape? If you get a chance, please reply _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail? has ever-growing storage! Don?t worry about storage limits. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage_062009 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jul 17 01:12:18 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 02:12:18 -0400 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <20090716205303.GI3022@n0jcf.net> References: <4A5E80D1.2020002@arachelian.com> <20090716205303.GI3022@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 4:53 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > oh ya... and why are they "VAXen"? Ox/Oxen -> VAX/VAXen is the straight answer (there are a few joke answers from back in the day like "why isn't it box/boxen?") http://dictionary.babylon.com/VAXen >?Are there "PDP 11/44en" too? I've > got a couple Rainbowen here... Not in English you don't. At issue is the plural of English words ending in 'x' (which I'm sure goes back to Anglo-Saxon or something. The rule from Latin would be something like the plurals ending in 'es' since that's typical of third declension nouns). http://www.fortunecity.com/bally/durrus/153/gramch13.html#3i -ethan From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Jul 17 06:27:02 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 07:27:02 -0400 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: References: <4A5E80D1.2020002@arachelian.com> <20090716190602.GH3022@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <200907170727.02682.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 17 July 2009, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I once encountered an extremely irrate tech support guy in the hall > > who had just been on the phone for several hours with a > > customer.... Finally, the > > tech support guy said you are typing r-o-o-t right? ?And the > > customer says, well, no, "root", r-u-t-e. > > Probably because you didn't tell him to log in as "ruht" (short U > sound). Perhaps that is the, erm, "root" of the problem. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jul 17 07:52:58 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 07:52:58 -0500 Subject: TMI (was RE: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090717075228.0412ccb8@mail.threedee.com> At 11:30 PM 7/16/2009, Zane H. Healy wrote: >Why do we stay on this list year after year? This is a very unhealthy place. :-( I think the pack rat syndrome it encourages is pretty dangerous, too. - John From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Jul 17 07:53:37 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 09:53:37 -0300 Subject: TMI (was RE: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "Aninteresting eBay find ....)) References: Message-ID: <1b3c01ca06de$1f86ba30$951c19bb@desktaba> > Why do we stay on this list year after year? This is a very > unhealthy place. :-( Where crazy boys like us would get some attention? :o) From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jul 17 08:47:30 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 06:47:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <3CC1B60D-41F6-472C-99AD-E455685502CE@neurotica.com> References: <4A5E80D1.2020002@arachelian.com> <7d3530220907161330h32b70c1cm31f6e5f22bbbed88@mail.gmail.com> <3CC1B60D-41F6-472C-99AD-E455685502CE@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Jul 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jul 16, 2009, at 4:30 PM, John Floren wrote: >>>>>> 'puter ("pewter"), or worse yet, "pooter" (the redneck pronunciation) >>>>>> as a diminutive/dismissive term for "*COM*puter". Bleah! >>>>> >>>>> "Distro". [head explodes] >>>> >>>> That one I can at least understand because of Ozzie "-o" slang >>>> ("Medico" for doctor, "Doco" for Documentation, "Smoko" for smoke >>>> break, among numerous examples). I have no idea if that's where >>>> "Distro" originates, but it at least follows a well established >>>> dialectical pattern. >>> >>> Yes. One that annoys the living crap out of me. ;) >> >> You don't like this convention? Righto. > > [head explodes again] ;) > > Oh no-o! *runs* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jul 17 09:08:19 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 09:08:19 -0500 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <234560CD-C133-4EFB-B125-CEACA6D1D079@neurotica.com> References: <200907162048.n6GKmjnt019254@floodgap.com> <234560CD-C133-4EFB-B125-CEACA6D1D079@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A6085D3.9030204@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >>>> You don't like this convention? Righto. >>> >>> [head explodes again] ;) >> >> Problems with your ammo? > > [dave makes clicking sound] Faulty HDA? From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jul 17 09:08:49 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 09:08:49 -0500 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <200907170430.n6H4UV9n012736@floodgap.com> References: <200907170430.n6H4UV9n012736@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4A6085F1.1010609@gmail.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Spanish too, to add another lingo. lingoo. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jul 17 09:15:06 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 09:15:06 -0500 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <20090716190602.GH3022@n0jcf.net> References: <4A5E80D1.2020002@arachelian.com> <20090716190602.GH3022@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4A60876A.9050508@gmail.com> Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Thursday (07/16/2009 at 07:27PM +0100), Tony Duell wrote: >>> fsck (pronounced fisk) is fun too... it almost sounds like a word.. >>> "That fsck'ing volume got corrupted again." >> Fuss-Chuck here :-) >> >> The one that really annoys me is to areviate 'motherboard' as 'MoBo' and >> pronounce it 'Mow-Bow'. > > Are these little solid state things that light up L-E-D's or are they > LEADs? You know, like the stuff that's in a shotgun shell? Argh - *that* was it. I knew there was another one, along with 'sequel', that infuriated me... :P > They kept telling him to login as root and execute this command. But he > continually got invalid (you know, like crippled) user. Finally, the > tech support guy said you are typing r-o-o-t right? And the customer > says, well, no, "root", r-u-t-e. Heh, I had similar bafflement a few days ago; wife's moved to a job where hey have a Linux server which is left on - nobody there knows what's on it, has ever really heard of Linux/UNIX, or knows what any of the accounts/passwords are :-) I think I'll go in one day next week and try to get some sense out of it... (the joys of previous employees setting things up, not documenting them, and then leaving!) cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jul 17 09:16:06 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 09:16:06 -0500 Subject: TMI (was RE: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....)) In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20090717075228.0412ccb8@mail.threedee.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20090717075228.0412ccb8@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <4A6087A6.1050406@gmail.com> John Foust wrote: > At 11:30 PM 7/16/2009, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Why do we stay on this list year after year? This is a very unhealthy place. :-( > > I think the pack rat syndrome it encourages is pretty dangerous, too. I'm more worried about being an unpacked rat - it takes up way more space :) From ray at arachelian.com Fri Jul 17 10:49:04 2009 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 11:49:04 -0400 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: References: <4A5E80D1.2020002@arachelian.com> <20090716190602.GH3022@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4A609D70.7060504@arachelian.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Probably because you didn't tell him to log in as "ruht" (short U sound). > Best one I've heard from a Sun engineer was after the client being asked to su, she replied "I am at the little fence." From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jul 17 10:54:03 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 08:54:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <4A609D70.7060504@arachelian.com> from Ray Arachelian at "Jul 17, 9 11:49:04 am" Message-ID: <200907171554.n6HFs3fS016178@floodgap.com> > > Probably because you didn't tell him to log in as "ruht" (short U sound). > > Best one I've heard from a Sun engineer was after the client being asked > to su, she replied "I am at the little fence." ROTFL! It took me a few seconds to realize what she was referring to. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- END OF LINE. --------------------------------------------------------------- From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jul 17 11:52:38 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 17:52:38 +0100 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <4A5EB7E5.20102@gmail.com> References: <738817.53169.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A5E4136.5090503@gmail.com> <4A5E4F26.9030601@gmail.com> <4A5EB7E5.20102@gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0907170952t789d8a47u88658eb0d6896c6c@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/16 Sridhar Ayengar : > When IBM first developed the language, it was called SEQUEL. ?It was renamed > to SQL later, because of a trademark issue. ?The pronunciation "sequel" is > older than the abbreviation "SQL". /Thank/ you, Sridhar. Jules, David: I'm afraid it really doesn't matter if you like it or not. The pronunciation "sequel" is correct, because SEQUEL, IBM's Structured English QUEry Language, was called that, and the one that now bears the initialism S. Q. L. was derived from this. http://www.almaden.ibm.com/cs/people/chamberlin/sequel-1974.pdf -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jul 17 11:59:56 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 11:59:56 -0500 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <575131af0907170952t789d8a47u88658eb0d6896c6c@mail.gmail.com> References: <738817.53169.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A5E4136.5090503@gmail.com> <4A5E4F26.9030601@gmail.com> <4A5EB7E5.20102@gmail.com> <575131af0907170952t789d8a47u88658eb0d6896c6c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A60AE0C.6060206@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: > 2009/7/16 Sridhar Ayengar : > >> When IBM first developed the language, it was called SEQUEL. It was renamed >> to SQL later, because of a trademark issue. The pronunciation "sequel" is >> older than the abbreviation "SQL". > > /Thank/ you, Sridhar. > > Jules, David: I'm afraid it really doesn't matter if you like it or > not. The pronunciation "sequel" is correct, because SEQUEL, IBM's > Structured English QUEry Language, was called that, and the one that > now bears the initialism S. Q. L. was derived from this. Yes, as Sridhar pointed out... it would be interesting to know how many of the current crop of folk who call it sequel are doing so in reference to the original IBM version. I suspect the answer is rather close to zero ;-) "Correct" pronunciation might be a matter for debate, given that IBM renamed their product; were the lots of people *after* the renaming still going around calling it sequel? Certainly it was SQL by the time I first encountered databases, and I only started hearing 'sequel' in the latter half of the 90s (around the rise of the MS product, I suspect, BICBW) Either way it's interesting how these pronunciations go in phases - perhaps everyone will be calling it sequel in ten years' time, and anyone spelling it out as S.Q.L will be beaten over the head with a large stick. cheers Jules From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Jul 17 12:17:17 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 10:17:17 -0700 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <4A60AE0C.6060206@gmail.com> References: <738817.53169.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A5E4136.5090503@gmail.com> <4A5E4F26.9030601@gmail.com> <4A5EB7E5.20102@gmail.com> <575131af0907170952t789d8a47u88658eb0d6896c6c@mail.gmail.com> <4A60AE0C.6060206@gmail.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson > Sent: Friday, July 17, 2009 10:00 AM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay > find ....) > > Liam Proven wrote: > > 2009/7/16 Sridhar Ayengar : > > > >> When IBM first developed the language, it was called SEQUEL. It was > renamed > >> to SQL later, because of a trademark issue. The pronunciation > "sequel" is > >> older than the abbreviation "SQL". > > > > /Thank/ you, Sridhar. > > > > Jules, David: I'm afraid it really doesn't matter if you like it or > > not. The pronunciation "sequel" is correct, because SEQUEL, IBM's > > Structured English QUEry Language, was called that, and the one that > > now bears the initialism S. Q. L. was derived from this. > > Yes, as Sridhar pointed out... it would be interesting to know how many > of the > current crop of folk who call it sequel are doing so in reference to > the > original IBM version. I suspect the answer is rather close to zero ;-) > > "Correct" pronunciation might be a matter for debate, given that IBM > renamed > their product; were the lots of people *after* the renaming still going > around > calling it sequel? Certainly it was SQL by the time I first encountered > databases, and I only started hearing 'sequel' in the latter half of > the 90s > (around the rise of the MS product, I suspect, BICBW) > > Either way it's interesting how these pronunciations go in phases - > perhaps > everyone will be calling it sequel in ten years' time, and anyone > spelling it > out as S.Q.L will be beaten over the head with a large stick. > > cheers > > Jules I once met a pleasant young woman who was learning database programming. She pronounced it 'squeal'. As I recall, I managed not to choke on my beer, and just smiled. Hey, she was cute.... -- Ian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jul 17 12:25:41 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 13:25:41 -0400 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <4A6085D3.9030204@gmail.com> References: <200907162048.n6GKmjnt019254@floodgap.com> <234560CD-C133-4EFB-B125-CEACA6D1D079@neurotica.com> <4A6085D3.9030204@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 10:08 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: >>>>> You don't like this convention? Righto. >>>> ? [head explodes again] ;) >> ?[dave makes clicking sound] > > Faulty HDA? Head-Desk Assembly? ;-) -ethan From pontus at update.uu.se Fri Jul 17 12:59:01 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 19:59:01 +0200 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: References: <4A5E80D1.2020002@arachelian.com> <20090716205303.GI3022@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4A60BBE5.40409@update.uu.se> > Ox/Oxen -> VAX/VAXen is the straight answer (there are a few joke > answers from back in the day like "why isn't it box/boxen?") > > http://dictionary.babylon.com/VAXen I always thought it was a play on vixen, not to uncommon to have naughty words in a male dominated field ("NESticle, strip, fsck) /p From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 17 13:08:48 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 11:08:48 -0700 Subject: 9-track BOT/EOT markers? In-Reply-To: References: <4854B8FC.5060400@msu.edu>, , Message-ID: <4A605BC0.10936.414DD1F6@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Jul 2009 at 1:10, Randy Dawson wrote: > YEA, there is a big market for these. > Check Office Depot > > I know what your are asking for, I have cut plenty of tape ends, wild > and fast tape hanger as my first job (Apollo data) The foil sensing tape is still used in some audio applications: http://www.splicit.com/sensing_foil_tape.html Not hard to find at all. --Chuck From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Fri Jul 17 13:14:23 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 19:14:23 +0100 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4006821A-0D61-4EDE-9B0C-005C96960E83@microspot.co.uk> >> oh ya... and why are they "VAXen"? > > Ox/Oxen -> VAX/VAXen is the straight answer (there are a few joke > answers from back in the day like "why isn't it box/boxen?") > > http://dictionary.babylon.com/VAXen > >> ?Are there "PDP 11/44en" too? I've >> got a couple Rainbowen here... > > Not in English you don't. At issue is the plural of English words > ending in 'x' (which I'm sure goes back to Anglo-Saxon or something. > The rule from Latin would be something like the plurals ending in 'es' > since that's typical of third declension nouns). So are photocopiers of a certain brand Xeroxen? Are helmsmen coxen? If I receive one fax then another are they faxen? If I apply one fix to my program and then another are they fixen? How about a dog fox and a vixen, are they foxen? One mix plus another are mixen? Small pox and chicken pox are poxen? One sax plus another saxen? Male and female sexen? Do your pay your taxes or your taxen? Surely in 90% of cases the norm is to add es. Adding en sometimes makes a noun in to an adjective, flaxen, waxen for example. Apart form oxen (a.k.a. bullocks), I could not think of one other example of plural xen. There may well be more but it was quite easy to come up my list which should all be xes. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 17 13:34:27 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 11:34:27 -0700 Subject: Micropolis 1015-2 floppy drive In-Reply-To: <20090716120141.GT2482@n0jcf.net> References: <01CA05A5.2BC42CE0@MSE_D03>, <4A5E5650.29704.3968CF9B@cclist.sydex.com>, <20090716120141.GT2482@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4A6061C3.18727.41654EC7@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Jul 2009 at 7:01, Chris Elmquist wrote: > Yes... the Micropolis controller design, which VG and Multi-Tech > clearly used as a reference design, is a 16-hole hard sector thing. > Multi-Tech also had a GCR controller but I don't have one of those. > It was a board chock full of parts including a Z80 I think. It was a > PITA to align and very expensive so I opt'd not to obtain one as a > parting gift from Multi-Tech. I think I have a couple of Multi-Tech diskette samples in my files. The GCR design was also used by Future Data in 8" format for their CAD workstations. Does anyone have any documentation for the Micropolis demo system? I can recall seeing it back then, but I ddn't pay much attention to it and didn't save any of the paper. In any case, ours was complicated--the controller for our system took up an entire Multibus-sized board. In retrospect, that was probably thought not to be too bad, when viewed in the light of the floppy controller that was being supplied with the Intel MDS-800--two boards with Intel 3000-series bit-slice logic on one. The design for ours was done by an engineer we hijacked from Sperry ISS who did work on big-iron drives The WD1781 was buggy (had a tendency to hang) and WD got tired of making it. On the next system design, we used 96 tpi drives and MFM. Customers were disappointed in getting 800K (10x512 tracks) instead of 980K (12x512) on their floppies, but it was much cheaper, required no adjustment and could be tucked into a corner of a board. By then, they were using hard disks anyway. We found that Micropolis was very sloppy when it came to head azimuth on drives from the factory and it took some table-pounding for them to get their act in shape. --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jul 17 13:49:06 2009 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 13:49:06 -0500 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <20090716190602.GH3022@n0jcf.net> References: <4A5E80D1.2020002@arachelian.com> <20090716190602.GH3022@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <51ea77730907171149o61018087w93b576dc3370e480@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 2:06 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > Are these little solid state things that light up L-E-D's or are they > LEADs? ?You know, like the stuff that's in a shotgun shell? I have it pronounced "leads" (like the metal, not the things hanging off your oscilloscope)...by employees of Radio Shack. Ufff. Here's another: "DEC" is "deck" but never "Dee Ee Cee," while "NEC" is never "neck," but "En Ee Cee." From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Jul 17 14:08:24 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 12:08:24 -0700 Subject: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 In-Reply-To: References: <040201ca0204$17922960$46b67c20$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy > Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 7:27 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 > > At 9:46 AM +0100 7/11/09, Robert Jarratt wrote: > >Does anyone know if there is a version of TCP/IP around that will > install on > >VMS 5.4. I only have UCX from a 7.3 CD-ROM which I cannot install on > 5.4 > >because it does not have the PRODUCT command. > > UCX from V7.3 wouldn't install on V5.4 anyway. A better question > might be why are you running V5.4? Off the top of my head your best > bet will be CMU-IP, but I'm not even sure where you'll find a copy of > that (I probably have it, I'm just not sure where as I've still not > recovered from moving). I'm not sure how old of VMS CMU-IP supports > though. If you were running V5.5-2 you could run Multinet or TCPware. > We are running CMU-IP on our VAX-11/780-5, and I have all the original compressed savesets, the uncompress tool and the READMEs. I've also done some network programming with CMU-IP - the documentation reeks on ice, but since the source is included (in Bliss), that can be overcome. If anyone is interested in obtaining the CMU-IP install bits, please drop me a private email and we'll see what we can work out. Cheers -- Ian Madness takes its toll - please have exact change. Ian S. King, Sr. Vintage Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. http://www.pdpplanet.com From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Jul 17 14:08:34 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 20:08:34 +0100 Subject: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 In-Reply-To: <0KMR0015S4YGAYG4@vms173011.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0KMR0015S4YGAYG4@vms173011.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <015801ca0711$fcd4bf80$f67e3e80$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Allison > Sent: 14 July 2009 04:14 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org; cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 > > > > >Subject: RE: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 > > From: "Zane H. Healy" > > Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 10:46:51 -0700 (PDT) > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > > > > > >On Mon, 13 Jul 2009, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > >> You are right about the RD53s though. The one that came with the > machine > >> seemed a bit dubious to me but seemed at least to respond in some > way (I > >> could start a boot but it would never complete). Then one day it > just went > >> offline as if it is not attached at all, I wonder if this is not a > >> mechanical problem but an electronic one in this case? Is there > anything > >> that can be done to revive them? > > > >Most likely you've run into the sticky pads problem. Hopefully > Allison > >answers this, as I believe she has experience reviving RD53's. IIRC, > >basically you open the drive up and remove the sticky rubber pads. I > really > >don't remember the details as I went SCSI nearly 10 years ago. > > > >Zane > > > > If it spins up then back down and repeats thats a stuck head > positioner. > When the drive is powered down there is a magnetic retract and at the > end of travel there are bumpers that betwen heat and time get sticky. > The windup then down is the failure of the heads to move and find servo > and it fails. > > There are two fixes, temprorary is to freeze the drive and sometimes > they unstick. Me I open the drive, unstick the heads and reach in to > the mech and pull out the goo they stick too. Never had a failure yet > and all 6 of my RD53s are salvaged this way and most were opened over > 10 years ago (two approaching 15!) and they are well past their MTBF > now. I haven't opened any in years since I haven't found more and > generally RD53s are more useful to me as spares, swap or for the Qbus > pdp 11s I have. Other than that goo problem they were otherwise > reliable drives. > I have opened up the drive by removing the top plate and I have not found quite what I expected. The heads are positioned under the platters, I expected that when retracted they would be to one side of the platters instead. The platters rotate freely but the heads so indeed seem to be stuck in that I cannot move the arm (at least not without applying some force), I am assuming that they are stuck because of the goo you mention. What I am not sure about is just how to unstick the heads, there does not seem to be much to get hold of and I am worried that applying too much force may break something. Once I have the heads unstuck the goo is going to be in-between the platters, is that right? I cannot see how to get at the goo to clean it up in that case. Any advice on what to do? Do I need to remove more parts, or can it be done just by removing the top plate? Thanks Rob From jim at photojim.ca Fri Jul 17 14:13:38 2009 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 13:13:38 -0600 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) References: <4A5E80D1.2020002@arachelian.com> <20090716190602.GH3022@n0jcf.net> <51ea77730907171149o61018087w93b576dc3370e480@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EF2CA71FA6043EAA8F7791920B26F7A@JIMM> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason T" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, July 17, 2009 12:49 PM Subject: Re: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) I have it pronounced "leads" (like the metal, not the things hanging off your oscilloscope)...by employees of Radio Shack. Ufff. === Even that's ambiguous... just like you said. To me they've always been L-E-Ds... since their cousin is an L-C-D. Then again, I think I called LEDs that since before LCDs were common.. I don't tend to pronounce acronyms that much, since they aren't meant to be pronounced (which leads to interesting acronyms like "VW", which takes longer to pronounce than the word it abbreviates, but then again I'm thankful we don't call it a "voow"). Jim From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Jul 17 14:17:51 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 12:17:51 -0700 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <4EF2CA71FA6043EAA8F7791920B26F7A@JIMM> References: <4A5E80D1.2020002@arachelian.com> <20090716190602.GH3022@n0jcf.net> <51ea77730907171149o61018087w93b576dc3370e480@mail.gmail.com> <4EF2CA71FA6043EAA8F7791920B26F7A@JIMM> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jim MacKenzie > Sent: Friday, July 17, 2009 12:14 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay > find ....) > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jason T" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Friday, July 17, 2009 12:49 PM > Subject: Re: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay > find > ....) > > > I have it pronounced "leads" (like the metal, not the things hanging > off your oscilloscope)...by employees of Radio Shack. Ufff. > === > Even that's ambiguous... just like you said. > > To me they've always been L-E-Ds... since their cousin is an L-C-D. > Then > again, I think I called LEDs that since before LCDs were common.. > > I don't tend to pronounce acronyms that much, since they aren't meant > to be > pronounced (which leads to interesting acronyms like "VW", which takes > longer to pronounce than the word it abbreviates, but then again I'm > thankful we don't call it a "voow"). > "Vee-dub." -- Ian, proud alumnus of the "Yoo-dub" (University of Washington) From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 17 14:20:28 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 12:20:28 -0700 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <51ea77730907171149o61018087w93b576dc3370e480@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A5E80D1.2020002@arachelian.com>, <20090716190602.GH3022@n0jcf.net>, <51ea77730907171149o61018087w93b576dc3370e480@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A606C8C.20382.418F6A52@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Jul 2009 at 13:49, Jason T wrote: > I have it pronounced "leads" (like the metal, not the things hanging > off your oscilloscope)...by employees of Radio Shack. Ufff. I'm still waiting for someone's newborn daughter to be called "Elly Dee" (or "Elsie Dee"). --Chuck From doc at vaxen.net Fri Jul 17 14:32:02 2009 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 14:32:02 -0500 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <4A606C8C.20382.418F6A52@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4A5E80D1.2020002@arachelian.com>, <20090716190602.GH3022@n0jcf.net>, <51ea77730907171149o61018087w93b576dc3370e480@mail.gmail.com> <4A606C8C.20382.418F6A52@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A60D1B2.2080302@vaxen.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 17 Jul 2009 at 13:49, Jason T wrote: > >> I have it pronounced "leads" (like the metal, not the things hanging >> off your oscilloscope)...by employees of Radio Shack. Ufff. > > I'm still waiting for someone's newborn daughter to be called "Elly > Dee" (or "Elsie Dee"). Oooh, COOL! Probably a good thing I can't have kids... Doc From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jul 17 15:18:31 2009 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 15:18:31 -0500 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <4A606C8C.20382.418F6A52@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4A5E80D1.2020002@arachelian.com> <20090716190602.GH3022@n0jcf.net> <51ea77730907171149o61018087w93b576dc3370e480@mail.gmail.com> <4A606C8C.20382.418F6A52@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730907171318y364a79c7v47cb482823fce354@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 2:20 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'm still waiting for someone's newborn daughter to be called "Elly > Dee" (or "Elsie Dee"). There was a traffic guy on the local Chicago (home of Lake Shore Drive) talk station who called himself "Ellis Dee." From toby at coreware.co.uk Fri Jul 17 15:21:51 2009 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 21:21:51 +0100 Subject: WTB: PDP-8/L core stacks Message-ID: <4A60DD5F.8070704@coreware.co.uk> I've just taken possession of a PDP-8/L but its missing its core stacks. If anyone has one they are prepared to be parted from could they contact me off list. Many thanks, Toby -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 17 15:56:30 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 21:56:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Micropolis 1015-2 floppy drive In-Reply-To: <4A6061C3.18727.41654EC7@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 17, 9 11:34:27 am Message-ID: > > Multi-Tech also had a GCR controller but I don't have one of those. > > It was a board chock full of parts including a Z80 I think. It was a > > PITA to align and very expensive so I opt'd not to obtain one as a > > parting gift from Multi-Tech. > > I think I have a couple of Multi-Tech diskette samples in my files. > The GCR design was also used by Future Data in 8" format for their > CAD workstations. Interesting. I was given a Futuredata development system some years ago. It's 2 units, one looks like a terminal (CRT and built-in keyboard), but has the processor, EPROM programmer, etc PCBs in a card cage at the back, the other is the disk unit (2 8" drives). I have a schematics book for it (about the only manual I do have), but I think it only covers the 'main' unit. I don't think I have any info on the disk controller board in the disk drive unit (and from what I remember when I looked inside, it's not simple, there was certainly a processor (Z80?) in there). Does any docuemtnation for the Multi-Tech GCR board exist? It might be a help in figuring out the Futuredata one (not that I am going to look at that for a _long_ time...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 17 16:02:37 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 22:02:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find In-Reply-To: <51ea77730907171149o61018087w93b576dc3370e480@mail.gmail.com> from "Jason T" at Jul 17, 9 01:49:06 pm Message-ID: > Here's another: "DEC" is "deck" but never "Dee Ee Cee," while "NEC" DEC (at least the bit I had to deal with) got annoyed if you called them anything other than 'Digital'. > is never "neck," but "En Ee Cee." I have been known to call a 5150 an 'Ibum Puck' (all vowels short), but only to people who I know will understand :-). Which reminds me of the time I was talking to a friend and said 'I've just been reparing my 8/e'. He said 'Is that alpha tango or eight echo?' -tony From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Jul 17 16:10:00 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 18:10:00 -0300 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find References: Message-ID: <201101ca0722$fc8f4250$951c19bb@desktaba> >> is never "neck," but "En Ee Cee." In Brazil is ALWAYS "NEC" as in "neck" From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jul 17 16:17:42 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 22:17:42 +0100 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <4006821A-0D61-4EDE-9B0C-005C96960E83@microspot.co.uk> References: <4006821A-0D61-4EDE-9B0C-005C96960E83@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <575131af0907171417k5eabae9ei115fda3c430fbf76@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/17 Roger Holmes : > >>> oh ya... and why are they "VAXen"? >> >> Ox/Oxen -> VAX/VAXen is the straight answer (there are a few joke >> answers from back in the day like "why isn't it box/boxen?") >> >> http://dictionary.babylon.com/VAXen >> >>> ?Are there "PDP 11/44en" too? I've >>> got a couple Rainbowen here... >> >> Not in English you don't. ?At issue is the plural of English words >> ending in 'x' (which I'm sure goes back to Anglo-Saxon or something. >> The rule from Latin would be something like the plurals ending in 'es' >> since that's typical of third declension nouns). > > So are photocopiers of a certain brand Xeroxen? Are helmsmen coxen? If I > receive one fax then another are they faxen? If I apply one fix to my > program and then another are they fixen? How about a dog fox and a vixen, > are they foxen? One mix plus another are mixen? Small pox and chicken pox > are poxen? One sax plus another saxen? Male and female sexen? Do your pay > your taxes or your taxen? Surely in 90% of cases the norm is to add es. > Adding en sometimes makes a noun in to an adjective, flaxen, waxen for > example. Apart form oxen (a.k.a. bullocks), I could not think of one other > example of plural xen. There may well be more but it was quite easy to come > up my list which should all be xes. The -en ending is a feature from Anglo-Saxon Old English. The -x ending is a red herring. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English In OE, nouns were divided into strong and weak. Strong nouns formed a regular plural - book/books, frog/frogs - weak ones had an irregular plural: cow/kine. Sometimes it was an ablaut, where just the vowel changes: mouse/mice, goose/geese. German does something similar: vogel/v?gel ("bird"/"birds"). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English_morphology#Nouns One of the irregular plurals is -en: ox/oxen, child/children, man/men, brother/brethren. The hackish use of it for VAX, box, etc. is just intentional overgeneralisation: knowingly applying a specific rule in a non-specific case. http://dictionary.die.net/overgeneralization A possible origin, hints Wikipedia, is that it's a bunch of unrelated vaxes, but a cluster of vaxen. The Jargon File suggests this is by extension from "vixen", but not why... "Vixen" being a female fox; "fox" is a strong noun: fox/foxes. http://www.jargondb.org/glossary/vaxen But perhaps it's to denote interchangeability: http://foldoc.org/boxen -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From rcini at optonline.net Fri Jul 17 16:22:27 2009 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 17:22:27 -0400 Subject: YE-380 floppy schematics In-Reply-To: <4A5F7A06.26787.3DDC1328@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Yes, it is. They are "YE Data" drives, so there is a reason for my madness :-) Thanks for the link. I did run across this earlier today but I couldn't get it from work. On 7/16/09 10:05 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 16 Jul 2009 at 21:10, Richard A. Cini wrote: > >> I?m troubleshooting my IMSAI that has YE-380 high-density 5.25? >> floppy >> drives replacing 8? drives, and I?m looking for schematics of the >> drive. The YE-380 drives were originally used in the IBM PC/AT, but >> I?m sure other machines used them too. >> >> I did some googling earlier and didn?t come up with anything >> useful. >> Does anyone have a pointer to the schematics or a pdf/jpg you could >> send me? > > Look at your drive again--it's a "YD-380", no? > > http://maben.homeip.net:8217/static/S100/ye%20data/diskette/YE%20Data% > 20YD-380%205.25%20inch%20HH%20HD%20Floppy.pdf > > --Chuck > Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Jul 17 17:12:32 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 15:12:32 -0700 Subject: VAXen [was RE: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards...] In-Reply-To: <20090716205303.GI3022@n0jcf.net> References: <4A5E80D1.2020002@arachelian.com> <20090716205303.GI3022@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: > From: Chris Elmquist > Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 1:53 PM > oh ya... and why are they "VAXen"? Are there "PDP 11/44en" too? I've > got a couple Rainbowen here... >From the Jargon File, INFO:JARGON.TXT on any well-stocked TOPS-20 system: VAXEN [from "oxen", perhaps influenced by "vixen"] n. pl. The plural of VAX (a DEC machine). The Jargon File describes itself thusly: Notes on updating this file: This glossary file is being maintained at two main locations. It is AIWORD.RF[UP,DOC] at SAIL, and GLS;JARGON > at MIT. If you make any changes, be sure to FTP the new file to the other location. (NOTE: Use ASCII mode in FTP to avoid screwing up the tilde char!) Also, please let us know (see list of names in later paragraph) about your changes so that we can double-check them. Try to conform to the format already being used--70 character lines, 3-character indentations, pronunciations in parentheses, etymologies in brackets, single-space after def'n numbers and word classes, etc. Stick to the standard ASCII character set. If you'd rather not mung the file yourself, send your definitions to DON @ SAIL, GLS @ MIT-AI, and/or MRC @ SAIL. The last edit (of this line, anyway) was by Don Woods on 81-07-22. ====================================================================== Compiled by Guy L. Steele Jr., Raphael Finkel, Donald Woods, and Mark Crispin, with assistance from the MIT and Stanford AI communities and Worcester Polytechnic Institute. Some contributions were submitted via the ARPAnet from miscellaneous sites. This turned into _The Hacker's Dictionary_ a couple of years later, then was ruined by a wannabe as _The New Hacker's Dictionary_. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell http://www.pdpplanet.org/ From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Jul 17 17:19:47 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 15:19:47 -0700 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <4A606C8C.20382.418F6A52@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4A5E80D1.2020002@arachelian.com>, <20090716190602.GH3022@n0jcf.net>, <51ea77730907171149o61018087w93b576dc3370e480@mail.gmail.com> <4A606C8C.20382.418F6A52@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: Chuck Guzis > Sent: Friday, July 17, 2009 12:20 PM > I'm still waiting for someone's newborn daughter to be called "Elly > Dee" (or "Elsie Dee"). Ellie Dee is one of Cherry Poptart's two best friends, an electronics and computer systems genius, in the _Cherry_ (originally _Cherry Poptart_ till Pillsbury objected) comics. Ellis Dee is a secret agent in the _Man from T.O.M.C.A.T._ series of spoof spy novels from the late 1960s. From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Jul 17 17:37:46 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 15:37:46 -0700 Subject: VAXen [was RE: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards...] In-Reply-To: <575131af0907171417k5eabae9ei115fda3c430fbf76@mail.gmail.com> References: <4006821A-0D61-4EDE-9B0C-005C96960E83@microspot.co.uk> <575131af0907171417k5eabae9ei115fda3c430fbf76@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > From: Liam Proven > Sent: Friday, July 17, 2009 2:18 PM > The -en ending is a feature from Anglo-Saxon Old English. The -x > ending is a red herring. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English > In OE, nouns were divided into strong and weak. Strong nouns formed a > regular plural - book/books, frog/frogs - weak ones had an irregular > plural: cow/kine. Sometimes it was an ablaut, where just the vowel > changes: mouse/mice, goose/geese. German does something similar: > vogel/v?gel ("bird"/"birds"). > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English_morphology#Nouns I just took at look at the Wrongipedia page to see whether the confusion was Liam's or theirs. It's theirs. In Germanic grammar (as an academic subject), *strong* nouns are the ones with different endings, or umlaut (goose/geese), or both. I don't recall any nouns forming a plural via ablaut (sing/sang/sung/song is an example of ablaut in English). *Weak* nouns are the ones with -en. Historically, BTW, that -en was part of the *stem*, and the original endings were lost in the transition from Proto-Indo-European to Proto- Germanic. Compare English oxen, German Ochsen, with Sanskrit uks.anas (where the dot should be beneath the preceding , indicating an "sh"- like pronunciation). > One of the irregular plurals is -en: ox/oxen, child/children, man/men, > brother/brethren. man/men is umlaut, like goose/geese. > The hackish use of it for VAX, box, etc. is just intentional > overgeneralisation: knowingly applying a specific rule in a > non-specific case. > http://dictionary.die.net/overgeneralization > A possible origin, hints Wikipedia, is that it's a bunch of unrelated > vaxes, but a cluster of vaxen. > The Jargon File suggests this is by extension from "vixen", but not > why... "Vixen" being a female fox; "fox" is a strong noun: fox/foxes. The *original* Jargon File states that it's from "oxen", with the sound *perhaps* helped along by "vixen". It wouldn't surprise me that ESR would ****^Wget that wrong, too. > http://www.jargondb.org/glossary/vaxen > But perhaps it's to denote interchangeability: > http://foldoc.org/boxen Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell http://www.pdpplanet.org/ ...who has spent most of the last 4 decades doing Indo-European studies. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 17 17:48:24 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 15:48:24 -0700 Subject: Micropolis 1015-2 floppy drive In-Reply-To: References: <4A6061C3.18727.41654EC7@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 17, 9 11:34:27 am, Message-ID: <4A609D48.15582.424DDCC6@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Jul 2009 at 21:56, Tony Duell wrote: > I have a schematics book for it (about the only manual I do have), but > I think it only covers the 'main' unit. I don't think I have any info > on the disk controller board in the disk drive unit (and from what I > remember when I looked inside, it's not simple, there was certainly a > processor (Z80?) in there). I can't help you much. About all I recall is that I received a package of 8" HS diskettes from a defense contractor technical guy who said he was told that they contained "source code" for some project he was very interested in. He didn't know what kind of source code, nor the system involved in producing it--he had only the project contract information--and he wasn't at liberty to disclose that. Fortunately, GCR has a very distinctive pattern when flux changes are plotted on a histogram. It helped that the disk was hard-sectored, as I could pretty much depend on some sort of sector ID at the beginning of each sector, probably also containing a track number. As this turned out to be a simple 5-to-4 group code, after I'd figured out what the sector headers were, I had most of the puzzle and was getting some ASCII data out of the raw bit-crunching. One of the first strings was "FUTURE DATA" and that rang a distant bell. About all I have to add is that the customer was fairly happy with what he got--however, one disk went missing over the years and the source code with it, so the project wasn't a complete success. I did retrieve some Intel-format HEX binaries, so he could at least fill in the gaps with some reverse assembly and go on to develop whatever new weapon of mass destruction he was bent on creating. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 17 18:04:09 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 16:04:09 -0700 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find In-Reply-To: <201101ca0722$fc8f4250$951c19bb@desktaba> References: , <201101ca0722$fc8f4250$951c19bb@desktaba> Message-ID: <4A60A0F9.32717.425C5250@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Jul 2009 at 18:10, Alexandre Souza wrote: > >> is never "neck," but "En Ee Cee." > > In Brazil is ALWAYS "NEC" as in "neck" No one ever says "En Ee Cee" unless it's someone who's completely unfamiliar with the term. What people do say is "any see". Doubtless this is one of the reasons that automated transcription of speech is such a difficult task. "PC" isn't "Pee Cee", but rather "peacey". --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jul 17 19:05:16 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 17:05:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <4A60D1B2.2080302@vaxen.net> from Doc Shipley at "Jul 17, 9 02:32:02 pm" Message-ID: <200907180005.n6I05GxN016220@floodgap.com> > > I'm still waiting for someone's newborn daughter to be called "Elly > > Dee" (or "Elsie Dee"). > > Probably a good thing I can't have kids... I'd name mine Ellis Dee. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Never say never again. ----------------------------------------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jul 17 19:05:41 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 17:05:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <51ea77730907171318y364a79c7v47cb482823fce354@mail.gmail.com> from Jason T at "Jul 17, 9 03:18:31 pm" Message-ID: <200907180005.n6I05fEb016752@floodgap.com> > > I'm still waiting for someone's newborn daughter to be called "Elly > > Dee" (or "Elsie Dee"). > > There was a traffic guy on the local Chicago (home of Lake Shore > Drive) talk station who called himself "Ellis Dee." Aw, crap, you beat me to it. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Computers are like air conditioners. They stop working if you open windows. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 17 19:33:46 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 00:33:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RIP: Paul Allen Panks, "Dunric" Message-ID: <557361.611.qm@web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Apologies for spoiling the mood, but I just learned about the passing of Paul Panks, aka Dunric. Whilst I didn't know him personally, I recently started learning a little about C64 BASIC and helped test one of the games he was working on recently (via emulation). http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/azcentral/obituary.aspx?n=paul-allen-panks&pid=129569950 His website (recently moved from Geocities) remains up for now: http://ppanks76.tripod.com/ Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Fri Jul 17 22:13:01 2009 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 22:13:01 -0500 Subject: OT Discussions In-Reply-To: <200907180005.n6I05fEb016752@floodgap.com> References: <200907180005.n6I05fEb016752@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4A613DBD.4090504@brutman.com> I realize I'm on cctalk so there is going to be some off topic discussion. But it really seems as though people really go far and deep once things go off topic. I might be out of line here, but I like 'the 30 second rule'. If it takes you less than 30 seconds to compose a reply, perhaps it is best not to send it. I love the depth and breadth of knowledge on the list. But with so many smart people, it seems like a constant game to see who can outwit the others. Unfortunately, that makes the the list very noisy. Mike From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Jul 17 22:30:56 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 22:30:56 -0500 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <200907180005.n6I05GxN016220@floodgap.com> References: <4A60D1B2.2080302@vaxen.net> <200907180005.n6I05GxN016220@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380907172030j3a56832ahb7cf3041685ccacd@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 7:05 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> ? ?Probably a good thing I can't have kids... > > I'd name mine Ellis Dee. We considered naming our daughter Poly Ester. lol brian From chrise at pobox.com Fri Jul 17 10:42:15 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 10:42:15 -0500 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: References: <4A5E80D1.2020002@arachelian.com> <20090716205303.GI3022@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20090717154215.GO3022@n0jcf.net> On Friday (07/17/2009 at 02:12AM -0400), Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 4:53 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > oh ya... and why are they "VAXen"? > > Ox/Oxen -> VAX/VAXen is the straight answer (there are a few joke > answers from back in the day like "why isn't it box/boxen?") > > http://dictionary.babylon.com/VAXen OK. Thanks. You win this one with logic :-) Chris -- Chris Elmquist From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Jul 18 02:41:40 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 00:41:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: logic probe cases Message-ID: In case you're seeing mysterious requests for money, that's me getting the logic probe case group buy going. When everyone who's put their name in has paid, I'll make the order. If you decided you want more or less, pay your invoice accordingly and drop me a note saying what you want me to do. The price is $4 per case and $5 shipping. Steve Maddison is the only non-US taker I counted. Please correct me if I goofed. If you didn't say so earlier and now want one or more cases, let me know and I'll invoice you. The door closes when I hear from all the takers (within reason). -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Jul 18 03:41:52 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 09:41:52 +0100 Subject: OT Discussions In-Reply-To: <4A613DBD.4090504@brutman.com> References: <200907180005.n6I05fEb016752@floodgap.com> <4A613DBD.4090504@brutman.com> Message-ID: <1247906513.12932.37.camel@elric> On Fri, 2009-07-17 at 22:13 -0500, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > I realize I'm on cctalk so there is going to be some off topic > discussion. But it really seems as though people really go far and deep > once things go off topic. > > I might be out of line here, but I like 'the 30 second rule'. If it > takes you less than 30 seconds to compose a reply, perhaps it is best > not to send it. > > I love the depth and breadth of knowledge on the list. But with so many > smart people, it seems like a constant game to see who can outwit the > others. Unfortunately, that makes the the list very noisy. I like the noise. If you don't, take it to cc-tech - that's what it's for. The classiccmp list is populated with some clever, erudite and witty characters with the kind of sense of humour you need to have to own and work on decades-old equipment. Without the off-topic blether the list would be dry screeds of part numbers and trainspotting notes. Gordon 2M0YEQ From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Jul 18 07:45:13 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 13:45:13 +0100 Subject: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 In-Reply-To: <015801ca0711$fcd4bf80$f67e3e80$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <0KMR0015S4YGAYG4@vms173011.mailsrvcs.net> <015801ca0711$fcd4bf80$f67e3e80$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <016701ca07a5$99730250$cc5906f0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > > > > > >> You are right about the RD53s though. The one that came with the > > machine > > >> seemed a bit dubious to me but seemed at least to respond in some > > way (I > > >> could start a boot but it would never complete). Then one day it > > just went > > >> offline as if it is not attached at all, I wonder if this is not a > > >> mechanical problem but an electronic one in this case? Is there > > anything > > >> that can be done to revive them? > > > > > >Most likely you've run into the sticky pads problem. Hopefully > > Allison > > >answers this, as I believe she has experience reviving RD53's. > IIRC, > > >basically you open the drive up and remove the sticky rubber pads. > I > > really > > >don't remember the details as I went SCSI nearly 10 years ago. > > > > > >Zane > > > > > > > If it spins up then back down and repeats thats a stuck head > > positioner. > > When the drive is powered down there is a magnetic retract and at the > > end of travel there are bumpers that betwen heat and time get sticky. > > The windup then down is the failure of the heads to move and find > servo > > and it fails. > > > > There are two fixes, temprorary is to freeze the drive and sometimes > > they unstick. Me I open the drive, unstick the heads and reach in to > > the mech and pull out the goo they stick too. Never had a failure > yet > > and all 6 of my RD53s are salvaged this way and most were opened over > > 10 years ago (two approaching 15!) and they are well past their MTBF > > now. I haven't opened any in years since I haven't found more and > > generally RD53s are more useful to me as spares, swap or for the Qbus > > pdp 11s I have. Other than that goo problem they were otherwise > > reliable drives. > > > > I have opened up the drive by removing the top plate and I have not > found > quite what I expected. The heads are positioned under the platters, I > expected that when retracted they would be to one side of the platters > instead. The platters rotate freely but the heads so indeed seem to be > stuck > in that I cannot move the arm (at least not without applying some > force), I > am assuming that they are stuck because of the goo you mention. What I > am > not sure about is just how to unstick the heads, there does not seem to > be > much to get hold of and I am worried that applying too much force may > break > something. Once I have the heads unstuck the goo is going to be in- > between > the platters, is that right? I cannot see how to get at the goo to > clean it > up in that case. > > Any advice on what to do? Do I need to remove more parts, or can it be > done > just by removing the top plate? > > Thanks > > Rob I tried a bit more this morning and I have managed to loosen the arm carrying the heads to some extent. I can now move the heads back and forth a bit, but only about 5mm across the platters. What I am not sure about is how free the movement should be when there is no power, should I expect to be able to move the heads across the whole surface, or just the 5mm or so I am able to do now? Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Jul 18 07:57:15 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 13:57:15 +0100 Subject: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 In-Reply-To: <016701ca07a5$99730250$cc5906f0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <0KMR0015S4YGAYG4@vms173011.mailsrvcs.net> <015801ca0711$fcd4bf80$f67e3e80$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> <016701ca07a5$99730250$cc5906f0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <016801ca07a7$47c5aaf0$d75100d0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > > > > > > > >> You are right about the RD53s though. The one that came with the > > > machine > > > >> seemed a bit dubious to me but seemed at least to respond in > some > > > way (I > > > >> could start a boot but it would never complete). Then one day it > > > just went > > > >> offline as if it is not attached at all, I wonder if this is not > a > > > >> mechanical problem but an electronic one in this case? Is there > > > anything > > > >> that can be done to revive them? > > > > > > > >Most likely you've run into the sticky pads problem. Hopefully > > > Allison > > > >answers this, as I believe she has experience reviving RD53's. > > IIRC, > > > >basically you open the drive up and remove the sticky rubber pads. > > I > > > really > > > >don't remember the details as I went SCSI nearly 10 years ago. > > > > > > > >Zane > > > > > > > > > > If it spins up then back down and repeats thats a stuck head > > > positioner. > > > When the drive is powered down there is a magnetic retract and at > the > > > end of travel there are bumpers that betwen heat and time get > sticky. > > > The windup then down is the failure of the heads to move and find > > servo > > > and it fails. > > > > > > There are two fixes, temprorary is to freeze the drive and > sometimes > > > they unstick. Me I open the drive, unstick the heads and reach in > to > > > the mech and pull out the goo they stick too. Never had a failure > > yet > > > and all 6 of my RD53s are salvaged this way and most were opened > over > > > 10 years ago (two approaching 15!) and they are well past their > MTBF > > > now. I haven't opened any in years since I haven't found more and > > > generally RD53s are more useful to me as spares, swap or for the > Qbus > > > pdp 11s I have. Other than that goo problem they were otherwise > > > reliable drives. > > > > > > > I have opened up the drive by removing the top plate and I have not > > found > > quite what I expected. The heads are positioned under the platters, I > > expected that when retracted they would be to one side of the > platters > > instead. The platters rotate freely but the heads so indeed seem to > be > > stuck > > in that I cannot move the arm (at least not without applying some > > force), I > > am assuming that they are stuck because of the goo you mention. What > I > > am > > not sure about is just how to unstick the heads, there does not seem > to > > be > > much to get hold of and I am worried that applying too much force may > > break > > something. Once I have the heads unstuck the goo is going to be in- > > between > > the platters, is that right? I cannot see how to get at the goo to > > clean it > > up in that case. > > > > Any advice on what to do? Do I need to remove more parts, or can it > be > > done > > just by removing the top plate? > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > > I tried a bit more this morning and I have managed to loosen the arm > carrying the heads to some extent. I can now move the heads back and > forth a > bit, but only about 5mm across the platters. What I am not sure about > is how > free the movement should be when there is no power, should I expect to > be > able to move the heads across the whole surface, or just the 5mm or so > I am > able to do now? > > Regards > > Rob Aarrgh! Just worked out the interlock mechanism that was stopping the heads moving much, I can move them as much as I like now, but I am still unclear where the goo that is causing them to stick is located and how to reach it. Regards Rob From kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com Sat Jul 18 09:39:18 2009 From: kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com (Keven Miller) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 08:39:18 -0600 Subject: 9-track BOT/EOT markers? References: Message-ID: <41AF5D7BB38F458E978CCDEF5A90B0E4@RANGER1> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew Tyrrell" To: Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 08:00 AM Subject: 9-track BOT/EOT markers? Kevin, I?m with Tyrrell data services in houston. Did you ever find where to buy those 3m sensing markers for 9 track tape? If you get a chance, please reply I'm guessing that the Kevin above might be me. I have not found a place; but haven't been looking. I have a roll that is way too much for my needs as it is. (I'd be happy to unroll a few and send some if you need ) As others have said, it appears to be available. I wasn't sure what to Google with. But from the given link http://www.splicit.com/sensing_foil_tape.html ($9.95) I did try the words "sensing foil tape" and got several hits. This link http://www.tracertek.com/8-track-sensing-foil has a picture of it and looks like the same roll I have. ($16.95) http://www.reelprosoundguys.com/Foil.html ($7.99) There are more. If I had the need, I'd would try the $7.99 stuff first. Keven Miller (Orem UT 84097) kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com (hobby email) kevenm at 3kranger.com (work email) From scheefj at netscape.net Sat Jul 18 12:50:30 2009 From: scheefj at netscape.net (Jim Scheef) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 13:50:30 -0400 Subject: Apollo Guidance Computer on the BBC In-Reply-To: References: <114392463.2059111247770938079.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4A5F8E0E.2060904@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4A620B66.7030802@netscape.net> Rik, We have had people come to VCF East from as far as Germany. The UK would be somewhat a shorter trip. Jim Rik Bos wrote: > > Yep, but a bit of a travel for us in the old world ;-) > So anyone with a private jet who's going from this side of the big water ? > > -Rik From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Jul 18 12:53:46 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 13:53:46 -0400 Subject: HP 9000 D series Message-ID: <88637BBA3E7F407D922056304B18824E@dell8300> Are the D series HP 9000's worth saving? These are 90's vintage servers? From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Sat Jul 18 13:09:10 2009 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 20:09:10 +0200 Subject: Intel MDS DDR available Message-ID: <4A620FC6.8070504@bluewin.ch> I have a lone Intel MDS DDR available, which is a dual 8" floppydrive box for the Intel MDS series. (220V / 50Hz ) Location : Zurich Switzerland. Make offer, shipping is not really an option. Jos From tosteve at yahoo.com Sat Jul 18 13:13:54 2009 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 11:13:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microscience HH612 hard drive = value? Message-ID: <14984.63414.qm@web110613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Mike Young has a 'new in the box' Microscience HH612 hard drive that he wishes to sell (10MB 5.25"/HH MFM ST412) - any takers? Contact him at: phillymopedman at yahoo.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jul 18 13:57:18 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 14:57:18 -0400 Subject: Microscience HH612 hard drive = value? In-Reply-To: <14984.63414.qm@web110613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <14984.63414.qm@web110613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 2:13 PM, steven stengel wrote: > Mike Young has a 'new in the box' ?Microscience HH612 hard drive that he wishes to sell (10MB 5.25"/HH MFM ST412) - any takers? > > Contact him at: ?phillymopedman at yahoo.com That sounds like the sort of drive that I commonly saw in early Mac and Amiga external drive enclosures (along with an ACB4000 and the like), if one is of a mind to (re-)experience 65ms-access-time compiles and loads. The NIB is a bit interesting - it must have been sitting on a dusty shelf for a long time. -ethan From evan at snarc.net Sat Jul 18 14:34:44 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 15:34:44 -0400 Subject: Apollo Guidance Computer on the BBC In-Reply-To: <4A620B66.7030802@netscape.net> References: <114392463.2059111247770938079.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4A5F8E0E.2060904@snarc.net> <4A620B66.7030802@netscape.net> Message-ID: <4A6223D4.7030408@snarc.net> New Zealand, too! > Rik, > > We have had people come to VCF East from as far as Germany. The UK > would be somewhat a shorter trip. > > Jim > > Rik Bos wrote: > >> >> Yep, but a bit of a travel for us in the old world ;-) >> So anyone with a private jet who's going from this side of the big >> water ? >> -Rik > From scheefj at netscape.net Sat Jul 18 14:48:12 2009 From: scheefj at netscape.net (Jim Scheef) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 15:48:12 -0400 Subject: Goodbye Compuserve In-Reply-To: <4A5222F9.90507@verizon.net> References: <4A50BC2F.9050100@arachelian.com> <4A5222F9.90507@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4A6226FC.6080506@netscape.net> Gee I'm sorry I missed this thread when it was alive... I was a Wizop (76702,1654) on CompuServe for about 10 years beginning in 1990 when we opened the FUSE Forum at the annual conference held in Boston that year. [FOCUS users will remember FUSE. Explaining FOCUS is too much digression. I'm listed in the book "CompuServe A to Z" with my original account number.] Having a legitimate reason to be on CIS just fueled my addiction that began in 1985 shortly after installing a modem in my still new IBM XT. The IBM PC Forum taught me enough about the IBM PC to be regarded as an expert at work. I had a boss who recognized a cheap training opportunity when he saw one and subsidized my online habit. One of the things I didn't see in the thread was how CIS created its own third-party industry. Specialized programs were written for just about every platform that automated using the CompuServe Fora. Tapcis was my personal favorite. Most of the program worked in a similar manner that handled the entire online session to minimize connect time. Once you joined a forum and added it to Tapcis, the next time you connected, the program would capture all of the message headers in the forum and save them to disk. You could them browse the headers (thread topics) at your leisure and select the ones of interest. When you were ready, a second logon session would capture all of the messages in those threads you just marked along with any from previous sessions. Offline, you could read and reply without that ticking clock. The program handled email as well. With Tapcis and similar programs for the Mac, OS/2, Amiga, etc., you could use the service more while spending less. At first CompuServe resisted these programs; but over time realized that they drew in more avid users. By the early-nineties, CIS was consulting the authors of these programs before making changes and helping the authors incorporate sysop tools for managing the fora into the programs. Compuserve was in the middle of implementing new forum software that ran on Windows NT in about 1997 and realized that what they were doing was not going to work with the Internet. They changed direction and developed the truly excellent web-based forums that existed for several years. Unfortunately the web-based forums gradually killed the old ASCII interface and the forums died. Within the company, the end began when AOL decided that CompuServe would be their "price brand". The CompuServe fora were so totally superior to whatever AOL called their bulletin boards, that spending money to develop CompuServe became a political embarrassment for AOL management. Another big factor was Microsoft's decision to move their support fora to the Internet. At their peak they had at least 15 for everything from DOS to SQL Server. Jim Keith M wrote: > Ray Arachelian wrote: >> I only got to use this service a few times back in my younger days, and >> even then, only with the demo accounts, and that at 300 baud (yes, baud, >> not just BPS.) >> I really couldn't afford their insane prices, but from what I saw back >> in the day, it was a huge, vast place with lots of goodies. > > I discovered compuserve from a flyer that was included with my Radio > Shack direct connect 300 baud modem. It was "in-line", no acoustic > coupler required. :) Set the switch to answer/originate, and then press > the big red button on the right to connect. Literally turned the > carrier on and off. The only phone that my parents could spare was a > pulse-only phone. Thank god for the redial button. Made he** for > trying to get into busy BBS's. > > I used endless numbers of CIS demo accounts to get access. The price > was absurd, even at 300 baud. As others mentioned, the price scaled > with the baud rate. Want 1200 baud, or 9600 baud? You'd pay through > the nose. I always wondered who actually paid those prices. > > Good stuff though. I downloaded Pittsburgh BBS lists from there which > really put me in contact with other TRS-80 COCO users (I had a CoCo II) > and as they say, the rest is history. They had download sections. And > was it access to usenet? and/or fidonet? Wasn't the form "GO _____?" I > think they had online whitepages, and reverse phone number lookup. > > Once I discovered the internet, I completely forgot about CIS. I > accessed CIS through the telenet dialups (as I assume everyone did?) As > a kid, I wondered what other systems I could connect to using similar > numbers. The numbers (did someone else call them PPNs?) were so dense, > and security almost nonexistent for many of the systems, that I had a > lot of fun times poking around. > > Keith From scheefj at netscape.net Sat Jul 18 14:59:06 2009 From: scheefj at netscape.net (Jim Scheef) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 15:59:06 -0400 Subject: Wanted: OS/2 version of Virtual PC In-Reply-To: <95838e090906020819v36d45508j4fa8f0a746c73c61@mail.gmail.com> References: <95838e090906020819v36d45508j4fa8f0a746c73c61@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A62298A.6000302@netscape.net> Several years ago there was a company called Connectix that made what is now Microsoft Virtual PC. I would very much like to obtain a copy of the version that ran on OS/2. This is needed for my networking project so I can play with OS/2 LAN Manager running in emulation. An ISO of the CD would be fine but I would be willing to pay modestly for a complete package with any manuals, etc. Please reply off list. Thanks, Jim From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Jul 18 15:00:40 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 22:00:40 +0200 Subject: Apollo Guidance Computer on the BBC In-Reply-To: <4A620B66.7030802@netscape.net> References: <114392463.2059111247770938079.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4A5F8E0E.2060904@snarc.net> <4A620B66.7030802@netscape.net> Message-ID: <9E2817E96A594182AE9B27F62E42EE8C@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Jim Scheef > Verzonden: zaterdag 18 juli 2009 19:51 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: Apollo Guidance Computer on the BBC > > Rik, > > We have had people come to VCF East from as far as Germany. > The UK would be somewhat a shorter trip. > > Jim > > Rik Bos wrote: > > > > > Yep, but a bit of a travel for us in the old world ;-) So > anyone with > > a private jet who's going from this side of the big water ? > > > > -Rik > But then I've to go to the UK first from the Netherlands ;-) You know it's not the distance I'm worried about but the amount of money involved of traveling me to the US and back. I got two teenage sons who're consuming the most of our income, so traveling to the US has to wait for a few years. Except ofcause some one with a private jet etc... ;-) -Rik From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jul 18 20:29:21 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 01:29:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) Message-ID: <57561.48723.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> As far as I know they are SRAM. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Wed, 15/7/09, Ethan Dicks wrote: From: Ethan Dicks Subject: Re: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Wednesday, 15 July, 2009, 10:24 PM On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > I have a couple of PCMCIA cards for my Amiga 600. One is a cool 2MB (notice capital M & B!), whilst the other is 4Mb (notice small b!). I have never used the latter. Are those SRAM cards or FlashROM?? I never owned an A600 or A1200, so I never got to play with that stuff in the Amiga realm. -ethan From lproven at gmail.com Sun Jul 19 06:12:52 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 12:12:52 +0100 Subject: VAXen [was RE: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards...] In-Reply-To: References: <4006821A-0D61-4EDE-9B0C-005C96960E83@microspot.co.uk> <575131af0907171417k5eabae9ei115fda3c430fbf76@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0907190412o30cf53f3w9314a155fc2faf6b@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/17 Rich Alderson : >> From: Liam Proven >> Sent: Friday, July 17, 2009 2:18 PM > >> The -en ending is a feature from Anglo-Saxon Old English. The -x >> ending is a red herring. > >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English > >> In OE, nouns were divided into strong and weak. Strong nouns formed a >> regular plural - book/books, frog/frogs - weak ones had an irregular >> plural: cow/kine. Sometimes it was an ablaut, where just the vowel >> changes: mouse/mice, goose/geese. German does something similar: >> vogel/v?gel ("bird"/"birds"). > >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English_morphology#Nouns > > I just took at look at the Wrongipedia page to see whether the confusion > was Liam's or theirs. ?It's theirs. > > In Germanic grammar (as an academic subject), *strong* nouns are the ones > with different endings, or umlaut (goose/geese), or both. ?I don't recall > any nouns forming a plural via ablaut (sing/sang/sung/song is an example > of ablaut in English). ?*Weak* nouns are the ones with -en. Damnit. I knew there was at least one linguist on the list & I am no more than an interested amateur. Excuse me while I remove my foot from my mouth. There. I would feebly say in my defence that I though it was odd that the strong/weak usage here did not match that for verbs, where of course strong verbs are those that do not follow the standard pattern for conjugation - but I had a reference, so I let it be. Serves me right. Have you fixed the article? > Historically, BTW, that -en was part of the *stem*, and the original > endings were lost in the transition from Proto-Indo-European to Proto- > Germanic. ?Compare English oxen, German Ochsen, with Sanskrit uks.anas > (where the dot should be beneath the preceding , indicating an "sh"- > like pronunciation). Interesting! >> One of the irregular plurals is -en: ox/oxen, child/children, man/men, >> brother/brethren. > > man/men is umlaut, like goose/geese. Umlaut? Do you mean ablaut? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From toby at coreware.co.uk Sun Jul 19 10:48:17 2009 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 16:48:17 +0100 Subject: OMNIBUS prototype boards Message-ID: <4A634041.7060204@coreware.co.uk> A few months there was some discussion about prototyping boards for OMNIBUS, UNIBUS and QBUS. I seem to recall that someone provided a link to a manufacturer who still produces some. I've searched hard to try to find the original post but I've drawn a blank. I don't suppose anyone can remember the url? Many thanks, Toby -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jul 19 11:45:47 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 17:45:47 +0100 Subject: OMNIBUS prototype boards In-Reply-To: <4A634041.7060204@coreware.co.uk> References: <4A634041.7060204@coreware.co.uk> Message-ID: <019e01ca0890$5efcd060$1cf67120$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tobias Russell > Sent: 19 July 2009 16:48 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: OMNIBUS prototype boards > > A few months there was some discussion about prototyping boards for > OMNIBUS, UNIBUS and QBUS. I seem to recall that someone provided a link > to a manufacturer who still produces some. I've searched hard to try to > find the original post but I've drawn a blank. I don't suppose anyone > can remember the url? > > Many thanks, > Toby > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. I searched the cctech archive, is this the post you were looking for: --- ben franchuk wrote: > PS. Yes you can proto-type chips but it is not cheap. A ballpark > figure is about $500 to $1000 each. http://www.mosis.com/ Hmm... my first thought was for bus driver/receiver chips from the OMNIBUS days (DEC 8881 and friends), but after a little reflection, I doubt the current fab processes would easily approximate the characteristics of those ancient chips we'd be trying to reproduce. The only thing in favor of such an endeavour is that the tolerances 30 years ago were so sloppy compared to today that it wouldn't be impossible to get something that behaved well enough, but didn't depend on some of the manufacturing specifics. -ethan From vrs at msn.com Sun Jul 19 11:52:15 2009 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 09:52:15 -0700 Subject: OMNIBUS prototype boards In-Reply-To: <4A634041.7060204@coreware.co.uk> References: <4A634041.7060204@coreware.co.uk> Message-ID: From: "Tobias Russell" Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2009 8:48 AM >A few months there was some discussion about prototyping boards for > OMNIBUS, UNIBUS and QBUS. I seem to recall that someone provided a link > to a manufacturer who still produces some. I've searched hard to try to > find the original post but I've drawn a blank. I don't suppose anyone > can remember the url? http://www.douglas.com/hardware/pcbs/breadboards/digital.html Vince From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jul 18 11:33:26 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 12:33:26 -0400 Subject: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 Message-ID: <0KMZ008L1KM9DRG5@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 > From: "Robert Jarratt" > Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 20:08:34 +0100 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > , > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Allison >> Sent: 14 July 2009 04:14 >> To: cctech at classiccmp.org; cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: RE: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 >> >> > >> >Subject: RE: TCP/IP for VMS 5.4 >> > From: "Zane H. Healy" >> > Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 10:46:51 -0700 (PDT) >> > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> > >> > >> > >> >On Mon, 13 Jul 2009, Robert Jarratt wrote: >> > >> >> You are right about the RD53s though. The one that came with the >> machine >> >> seemed a bit dubious to me but seemed at least to respond in some >> way (I >> >> could start a boot but it would never complete). Then one day it >> just went >> >> offline as if it is not attached at all, I wonder if this is not a >> >> mechanical problem but an electronic one in this case? Is there >> anything >> >> that can be done to revive them? >> > >> >Most likely you've run into the sticky pads problem. Hopefully >> Allison >> >answers this, as I believe she has experience reviving RD53's. IIRC, >> >basically you open the drive up and remove the sticky rubber pads. I >> really >> >don't remember the details as I went SCSI nearly 10 years ago. >> > >> >Zane >> > >> >> If it spins up then back down and repeats thats a stuck head >> positioner. >> When the drive is powered down there is a magnetic retract and at the >> end of travel there are bumpers that betwen heat and time get sticky. >> The windup then down is the failure of the heads to move and find servo >> and it fails. >> >> There are two fixes, temprorary is to freeze the drive and sometimes >> they unstick. Me I open the drive, unstick the heads and reach in to >> the mech and pull out the goo they stick too. Never had a failure yet >> and all 6 of my RD53s are salvaged this way and most were opened over >> 10 years ago (two approaching 15!) and they are well past their MTBF >> now. I haven't opened any in years since I haven't found more and >> generally RD53s are more useful to me as spares, swap or for the Qbus >> pdp 11s I have. Other than that goo problem they were otherwise >> reliable drives. >> > >I have opened up the drive by removing the top plate and I have not found >quite what I expected. The heads are positioned under the platters, I >expected that when retracted they would be to one side of the platters >instead. The platters rotate freely but the heads so indeed seem to be stuck >in that I cannot move the arm (at least not without applying some force), I >am assuming that they are stuck because of the goo you mention. What I am >not sure about is just how to unstick the heads, there does not seem to be >much to get hold of and I am worried that applying too much force may break >something. Once I have the heads unstuck the goo is going to be in-between >the platters, is that right? I cannot see how to get at the goo to clean it >up in that case. > >Any advice on what to do? Do I need to remove more parts, or can it be done >just by removing the top plate? > Do not disassemble further the magnets in there are strong and you canoot align the pieces. Keeping in mind that if you do not unstick the heads the drive is junk. So if you break something nothing lost. Take a moment to do careful inspection of how this are put together. Cleanliness, do avoid getting dust, fingerprints, dandruf, lint on the media. Take reasonable care to not introduce loose foreign matter. To that end cover drive with it's cover when not actually working inside or between work sessions. With that apply force as required to unstick them and (with media is rotating). So not apply force to the end near the heads, that part is fragile but closer to the pivot assembly where there is some structure. Once you have gotten them free you need to deal with the failed polymer that is now goo. In the past I've used a dental pick to remove it and I've also use a bit of paper that nicely adhered to it to prevent head sticking. Basically the head return bumpers are there to soften and quiet the return of the heads to the rest position on power off decompose and get sticky. Those that have used TU58 and other cartridge tape drives know the "roller turned to goo" problem, same material. Allison >Thanks > >Rob From les at hildenbrandt.com Sat Jul 18 16:21:52 2009 From: les at hildenbrandt.com (Les Hildenbrandt) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 15:21:52 -0600 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A623CF0.9080900@hildenbrandt.com> PCMCIA ... People Can't Memorize Computer Industry Acronyms? From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Jul 19 18:09:04 2009 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 18:09:04 -0500 Subject: OT Discussions References: <200907180005.n6I05fEb016752@floodgap.com><4A613DBD.4090504@brutman.com> <1247906513.12932.37.camel@elric> Message-ID: <001601ca08c5$e9cbaf60$c600a8c0@JWEST> I agree with Michael. From ragooman at comcast.net Sun Jul 19 18:07:13 2009 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 19:07:13 -0400 Subject: Moon Landing 40th anniv, Buzz Aldrin video "All you need is a Rocket Experience" Message-ID: <4A63A721.3090709@comcast.net> After 40yrs, times have sure changed. Moon Landing 40th anniv, Buzz Aldrin video "All you need is a Rocket Experience" http://science.blips.com/video/buzz_aldrin_s_rocket_experience/ =Dan -- [ = http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Jul 19 18:29:17 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 00:29:17 +0100 Subject: OT Discussions In-Reply-To: <001601ca08c5$e9cbaf60$c600a8c0@JWEST> References: <200907180005.n6I05fEb016752@floodgap.com> <4A613DBD.4090504@brutman.com> <1247906513.12932.37.camel@elric> <001601ca08c5$e9cbaf60$c600a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <1248046157.5705.1.camel@elric> On Sun, 2009-07-19 at 18:09 -0500, Jay West wrote: > I agree with Michael. Okay, then. I haven't got any classic computers any more so I don't see a lot of point in hanging around on the list if it's going to lose the interesting stuff. So long, and thanks for all the fish. Gordon 2M0YEQ From evan at snarc.net Sun Jul 19 21:15:24 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 22:15:24 -0400 Subject: Consignment sales @ VCF East Message-ID: <4A63D33C.9080809@snarc.net> We're going to have consignment sales @ VCF East this year. In the past we didn't do much of that. Very simple rules: - Bring your on-topic things to sell. - Fill out form w/ description, asking price, lowest accepted price. - VCF keeps 15% of the final sale price (to the nearest whole dollar.) - Retrieve any unsold things at the end of the day (or end of show, your choice.) Show is Sept. 12-13 in Wall, New Jersey. More details (speakers, exhibitors) frequently updated at http://www.vintage.org/2009/east/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 19 22:22:21 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 20:22:21 -0700 Subject: Consignment sales @ VCF East In-Reply-To: <4A63D33C.9080809@snarc.net> References: <4A63D33C.9080809@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4A63807D.14668.7E3FABF@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Jul 2009 at 22:15, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Very simple rules: > - Bring your on-topic things to sell. > - Fill out form w/ description, asking price, lowest accepted price. - > VCF keeps 15% of the final sale price (to the nearest whole dollar.) - Wow. So someone selling old magazines, media, etc. for a buck a pop forfeits the entire sale? Just curious. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jul 19 11:35:17 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 09:35:17 -0700 Subject: Consignment sales @ VCF East In-Reply-To: <4A63807D.14668.7E3FABF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4A63D33C.9080809@snarc.net> <4A63807D.14668.7E3FABF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A634B45.8080603@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 19 Jul 2009 at 22:15, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> Very simple rules: >> - Bring your on-topic things to sell. >> - Fill out form w/ description, asking price, lowest accepted price. - >> VCF keeps 15% of the final sale price (to the nearest whole dollar.) - > > Wow. So someone selling old magazines, media, etc. for a buck a pop > forfeits the entire sale? Just curious. > > --Chuck > I was thinking more like BOX of C64 parts ... 50 cents. However considering we are talking vintage computers, I don't expect to see C64's, XT's and Coco's for sale. Ben. This might be the time to do some spring cleaning,or at least do some pack rat trading. From evan at snarc.net Sun Jul 19 22:46:01 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 23:46:01 -0400 Subject: Consignment sales @ VCF East In-Reply-To: <4A63807D.14668.7E3FABF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4A63D33C.9080809@snarc.net> <4A63807D.14668.7E3FABF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A63E879.1090301@snarc.net> > >> - Bring your on-topic things to sell. >> - Fill out form w/ description, asking price, lowest accepted price. >> - VCF keeps 15% of the final sale price (to the nearest whole dollar.) >> > Wow. So someone selling old magazines, media, etc. for a buck a pop forfeits the entire sale? Just curious. Well in that case, the "nearest whole dollar" would be zero. :) From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Jul 19 23:03:15 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 00:03:15 -0400 Subject: Consignment sales @ VCF East In-Reply-To: <4A63D33C.9080809@snarc.net> References: <4A63D33C.9080809@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4A63EC83.3010305@atarimuseum.com> Evan, What if people want to directly sell new products at their own tables? Curt Evan Koblentz wrote: > We're going to have consignment sales @ VCF East this year. In the > past we didn't do much of that. > > Very simple rules: > - Bring your on-topic things to sell. > - Fill out form w/ description, asking price, lowest accepted price. > - VCF keeps 15% of the final sale price (to the nearest whole dollar.) > - Retrieve any unsold things at the end of the day (or end of show, > your choice.) > > Show is Sept. 12-13 in Wall, New Jersey. > > More details (speakers, exhibitors) frequently updated at > http://www.vintage.org/2009/east/ > From evan at snarc.net Sun Jul 19 23:16:59 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 00:16:59 -0400 Subject: Consignment sales @ VCF East In-Reply-To: <4A63EC83.3010305@atarimuseum.com> References: <4A63D33C.9080809@snarc.net> <4A63EC83.3010305@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4A63EFBB.3050104@snarc.net> > Evan, > > What if people want to directly sell new products at their own tables? > > Curt Those people should contact me off-list and we'll work something out. :) From james at machineroom.info Sun Jul 19 15:56:37 2009 From: james at machineroom.info (James Wilson) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 21:56:37 +0100 Subject: HP 9000 D series In-Reply-To: <88637BBA3E7F407D922056304B18824E@dell8300> References: <88637BBA3E7F407D922056304B18824E@dell8300> Message-ID: <4A638885.7030705@machineroom.info> Teo Zenios wrote: > Are the D series HP 9000's worth saving? These are 90's vintage servers? > > Hi, I've had a few D's in the past (D390 IIRC). Fairly standard PA-RISC machines built from girdirs and granite :) Not the most exciting hardware but a good reliable machine for someone learning HP-UX, whcih is mostly where I sold mine. Value wise not worth much. Cheers, James From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Jul 19 17:25:37 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 18:25:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: For sale: Un-used Mac,Apple service parts In-Reply-To: <633615.61284.qm@web110606.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <633615.61284.qm@web110606.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Jul 2009, steven stengel wrote: > > Contact Asa if interested: > --------------------------- > > We have a large inventory of unused Apple service parts in their > original Apple boxes for sale. We would like to sell our entire > inventory at a bulk rate or by piece. Don't anyone waste your time. No response to e-mail. -- From groove at sonic.net Sun Jul 19 17:28:53 2009 From: groove at sonic.net (Dan Johnson) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 15:28:53 -0700 Subject: Radio Shack Science Fair manuals Message-ID: I am responding to a post I found you made back in 2006. (I'm hoping this is still a good contact address...) I am trying to track down a copy of the manual for the Radio Shack Science Fair 200 in 1 Project Kit (Cat. #28-249). Do you still have it available..? Please let me know if this is something you can help me with. Thanks, Dan From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Jul 20 01:37:38 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 02:37:38 -0400 Subject: HP 9000 D series References: <88637BBA3E7F407D922056304B18824E@dell8300> <4A638885.7030705@machineroom.info> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Wilson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2009 4:56 PM Subject: Re: HP 9000 D series > Teo Zenios wrote: >> Are the D series HP 9000's worth saving? These are 90's vintage servers? >> >> > Hi, I've had a few D's in the past (D390 IIRC). Fairly standard PA-RISC > machines built from girdirs and granite :) > Not the most exciting hardware but a good reliable machine for someone > learning HP-UX, whcih is mostly where I sold mine. Value wise not worth > much. > > Cheers, > James I hit a local recycler and they have a unit that looks like a phone booth they will eventually turn into toasters. So I was wondering if it was worth much to anyone in parts. To be honest it looked more impressive then it is from a 1 minute spec search (bottom is a huge power supply, middle is just more HD storage, top had a DDS3 drive so it could not be that old). From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Jul 20 02:28:53 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 00:28:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Radio Shack Science Fair manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Jul 2009, Dan Johnson wrote: > I am responding to a post I found you made back in 2006. > (I'm hoping this is still a good contact address...) > > I am trying to track down a copy of the manual for the Radio Shack > Science Fair 200 in 1 Project Kit (Cat. #28-249). Do you still have it > available..? > > Please let me know if this is something you can help me with. Oooo... I'm pretty sure I still have mine from the 80s somewhere assuming my parents haven't thrown it out (which isn't very likely). One thing that bugged me about the 200-in-one was the fact that the front panel is perpendicular to the plane of the goodies inside. That made it rather hard to use. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jul 20 06:59:42 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 06:59:42 -0500 Subject: Microscience HH612 hard drive = value? In-Reply-To: References: <14984.63414.qm@web110613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A645C2E.3000702@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > The NIB is a bit interesting - it must have been sitting on a dusty > shelf for a long time. Yes, and I've often found that ST506/412 drives seem to suffer age-related faults - i.e. they can go bad just from sitting there, rather than being actively used. Personally I wouldn't risk it unless it had been tested... cheers Jules From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jul 20 08:08:06 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 09:08:06 -0400 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <4EF2CA71FA6043EAA8F7791920B26F7A@JIMM> References: <4A5E80D1.2020002@arachelian.com> <20090716190602.GH3022@n0jcf.net> <51ea77730907171149o61018087w93b576dc3370e480@mail.gmail.com> <4EF2CA71FA6043EAA8F7791920B26F7A@JIMM> Message-ID: <4A646C36.3090306@gmail.com> Jim MacKenzie wrote: > I don't tend to pronounce acronyms that much, since they aren't meant to > be pronounced (which leads to interesting acronyms like "VW", which > takes longer to pronounce than the word it abbreviates, but then again > I'm thankful we don't call it a "voow"). I often hear "VW" pronounced "vee-dub". Peace... Sridhar From toby at coreware.co.uk Mon Jul 20 10:08:16 2009 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 16:08:16 +0100 Subject: {Spam?} Re: OMNIBUS prototype boards In-Reply-To: References: <4A634041.7060204@coreware.co.uk> Message-ID: <1248102496.10101.741.camel@pokoyo.tan.russellsharpe.com> Thanks, that's what I was looking for. Toby On Sun, 2009-07-19 at 09:52 -0700, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: "Tobias Russell" > Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2009 8:48 AM > >A few months there was some discussion about prototyping boards for > > OMNIBUS, UNIBUS and QBUS. I seem to recall that someone provided a link > > to a manufacturer who still produces some. I've searched hard to try to > > find the original post but I've drawn a blank. I don't suppose anyone > > can remember the url? > > http://www.douglas.com/hardware/pcbs/breadboards/digital.html > > Vince > > -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From billdeg at degnanco.com Mon Jul 20 12:14:31 2009 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 13:14:31 -0400 Subject: Apollo Guidance Computer on the BBC - (photos of) Message-ID: <61d16e54$20dd5fe9$5ceed063$@com> Photos of the Apollo Guidance Computer for those without easy access to USA http://vintagecomputer.net/vcf3/apollo_guidence_module_a.jpg http://vintagecomputer.net/vcf3/apollo_guidence_modules_b.jpg http://vintagecomputer.net/vcf3/apollo_guidence_modules.jpg > > Rik, > > We have had people come to VCF East from as far as Germany. The UK would > be somewhat a shorter trip. > > Jim > > Rik Bos wrote: > > > > > Yep, but a bit of a travel for us in the old world ;-) > > So anyone with a private jet who's going from this side of the big water ? > > > > -Rik > > From brain at jbrain.com Mon Jul 20 12:19:43 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 12:19:43 -0500 Subject: Consignment sales @ VCF East In-Reply-To: <4A634B45.8080603@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4A63D33C.9080809@snarc.net> <4A63807D.14668.7E3FABF@cclist.sydex.com> <4A634B45.8080603@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4A64A72F.8080603@jbrain.com> Ben wrote: >> > > I was thinking more like BOX of C64 parts ... 50 cents. Not that many CBM things don't go for $.25 or $.50, but I sold some CBM-related stuff last Fall for $4,800.00 (10 items, 1 sold for $1530.00) > However considering we are talking vintage computers, I don't > expect to see C64's, XT's and Coco's for sale. Are they not "vintage" enough for the VCF? I was considering attending a VCF at some point, and showing off my stuff, but if the 64 crowd are not "old enough", maybe I should re-evaluate. Jim From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 20 13:10:12 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 11:10:12 -0700 Subject: Consignment sales @ VCF East In-Reply-To: <4A63E879.1090301@snarc.net> References: <4A63D33C.9080809@snarc.net>, <4A63807D.14668.7E3FABF@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A63E879.1090301@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4A645094.20895.B10D5BF@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Jul 2009 at 23:46, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Well in that case, the "nearest whole dollar" would be zero. :) I'd add the word "rounded" to the phrase, having been victimized by the "nearest dollar amount" phrase before. You could argue that zero isn't a "whole dollar"--it's no dollar at all. Sorry to be tedious, --Chuck From evan at snarc.net Mon Jul 20 13:14:41 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:14:41 -0400 Subject: Consignment sales @ VCF East In-Reply-To: <4A64A72F.8080603@jbrain.com> References: <4A63D33C.9080809@snarc.net> <4A63807D.14668.7E3FABF@cclist.sydex.com> <4A634B45.8080603@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A64A72F.8080603@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4A64B411.6080407@snarc.net> > >> However considering we are talking vintage computers, I don't expect >> to see C64's, XT's and Coco's for sale. > Are they not "vintage" enough for the VCF? I was considering > attending a VCF at some point, and showing off my stuff, but if the 64 > crowd are not "old enough", maybe I should re-evaluate. Jim, ignore that comment, it makes no sense. Those computers are perfectly on-topic. From evan at snarc.net Mon Jul 20 13:15:51 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:15:51 -0400 Subject: Consignment sales @ VCF East In-Reply-To: <4A634B45.8080603@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4A63D33C.9080809@snarc.net> <4A63807D.14668.7E3FABF@cclist.sydex.com> <4A634B45.8080603@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4A64B457.1090806@snarc.net> > However considering we are talking vintage computers, I don't expect > to see C64's, XT's and Coco's I'm baffled at your comment. Sarcasm, or something else? From evan at snarc.net Mon Jul 20 13:27:29 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:27:29 -0400 Subject: Consignment sales @ VCF East In-Reply-To: <4A645094.20895.B10D5BF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4A63D33C.9080809@snarc.net>, <4A63807D.14668.7E3FABF@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A63E879.1090301@snarc.net> <4A645094.20895.B10D5BF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A64B711.4090905@snarc.net> > >> Well in that case, the "nearest whole dollar" would be zero. :) > I'd add the word "rounded" to the phrase, having been victimized by > the "nearest dollar amount" phrase before. You could argue that zero > isn't a "whole dollar"--it's no dollar at all. > > Sorry to be tedious Okay, okay ..... 15% if that's at least $1, otherwise you keep every penny. Literally. From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Jul 20 13:54:03 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 11:54:03 -0700 Subject: DEC H207 Core Memory Boards In-Reply-To: <0KML00HKXE4MJ41Q@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0KML00HKXE4MJ41Q@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: I just happened across a description of the MP8-E memory parity module. It uses another core stack to maintain parity data for all other memory installed in the machine. All core was 12-bit. Source: PDP8/e Maintenance Manual, Vol. 2. -- Ian > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Allison > Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 5:46 PM > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: DEC H207 Core Memory Boards > > There wass never ECC memory as the logic for that likely exceeds > that of the PDP-8. There was 13bit Parity memory (I don't mean the > oddball > 13bit rom /ram mix device). > > > Allison > > > > > >Subject: Re: DEC H207 Core Memory Boards > > From: Ethan Dicks > > Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 19:43:52 -0400 > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > >On 7/10/09, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> While the use of the H207 has apparently been determined, out of > curiousity was > >> there ever any ECC core memory for the PDP-8?, it might have have > had a width > >> of 16 or 17 bits. > > > >I have never seen ECC core for any DEC machine (but don't take that as > >the definitive answer). The PDP-8/L, though, was commonly shipped > >with parity (there's space in the CPU chassis that's pre-wired for the > >parity support cards and the slots for the core sense/inhibit wires > >are wired for 13 bits). It might also be supported in the -8/i, but > >I'd have to look that up (I know about the -8/L for certain because > >one of mine arrived with that option populated). > > > >-ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 20 13:58:37 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 11:58:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Consignment sales @ VCF East In-Reply-To: <4A64B711.4090905@snarc.net> References: <4A63D33C.9080809@snarc.net>, <4A63807D.14668.7E3FABF@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A63E879.1090301@snarc.net> <4A645094.20895.B10D5BF@cclist.sydex.com> <4A64B711.4090905@snarc.net> Message-ID: <20090720113405.M98692@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 20 Jul 2009, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Okay, okay ..... 15% if that's at least $1, otherwise you keep every > penny. Literally. OK, so, if I bring a few thousand <$6 items, each sale commission will be under $1, and management won't get ANY? or, if you round, instead of truncating: if I bring ten or twenty thousand <$3 items, each sale commission will be under 50 cents, and management won't get ANY? My van, if I get it running again, will hold MANY thousands of books. Right NOW, I have at least 50 boxen of books to get rid of. And ephemera! How much should I charge for an unopened warranty registration packet for a 5150? Or should I send it in? How much to charge for each hard-sectored diskette? 3.25" alignment diskettes? You might want to consider a cumulative total per seller. Or, don't set a minimum. OK, no charge for stuff under 25 cents? but, collect 15 cents for each dollar. Consider what to charge for a book. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Jul 20 14:00:26 2009 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 20:00:26 +0100 Subject: Write-only backup media and big archives In-Reply-To: <20090703143240.034A4BA4B78@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: Tim (mailman at trailing-edge.com) wrote: > Not really a mechanical or procedural thing, but a little > more philosophical as I think about data storage not just at > home for classic computing, but at work: This reminds me that just the other day I saw an announcement about archival DVD media (rated at 100s of years rather than 10s). Obviously I cannot find it right now ... Antonio From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Jul 20 14:01:59 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 12:01:59 -0700 Subject: [WAAAY OT] RE: VAXen [was RE: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards...] In-Reply-To: <575131af0907190412o30cf53f3w9314a155fc2faf6b@mail.gmail.com> References: <4006821A-0D61-4EDE-9B0C-005C96960E83@microspot.co.uk> <575131af0907171417k5eabae9ei115fda3c430fbf76@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0907190412o30cf53f3w9314a155fc2faf6b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: For those not interested in linguistics, this will be boring. YHBW. > From: Liam Proven > Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2009 4:13 AM > 2009/7/17 Rich Alderson : >> I just took at look at the Wrongipedia page to see whether the confusion >> was Liam's or theirs. It's theirs. > I would feebly say in my defence that I though it was odd that the > strong/weak usage here did not match that for verbs, where of course > strong verbs are those that do not follow the standard pattern for > conjugation - but I had a reference, so I let it be. Serves me right. > Have you fixed the article? I have corrected a number of Indo-European related articles in the past. My corrections get removed by some twit. I don't bother any longer--life is too short. >>> One of the irregular plurals is -en: ox/oxen, child/children, man/men, >>> brother/brethren. >> man/men is umlaut, like goose/geese. > Umlaut? Do you mean ablaut? No. These are two different processes/phenomena. Most people are familiar with the term "umlaut" as the name for the two little dots over a, o, and u in German, but it more properly refers to a phonological process in which a sound in a following syllable affects a sound preceding it. The most common form of umlaut in the Germanic languages is called i-umlaut; in some of the Germanic languages u-umlaut is present (an _a_ becomes _o_ in a syllable preceding a syllable with a _u_, for example). Umlaut is automatic until the syllable with the *i or *j (= _y_--the symbols were created by German linguists in the 19th Century) is lost. PGmc. *gans, pl. *gansiz = *gensiz by i-umlaut. In German, we get Gans, G?nser; in English (and Frisian, but that's not important now), the *n is lost with lengthening of the preceding vowel, and we end up with Anglo-Saxon go:s, ge:s > Modern English goose, geese.[1] PGmc. *manu, pl. *manijaz = *menijaz > English man, men (and German Mann, M?nner). Ablaut, on the other hand, is already in place in the oldest Indo-European languages, and the conditioning factor(s) for it have been argued about for more than 200 years. There are two (at least) kinds of ablaut, called qualitative and quantitative. In the former, some forms of a stem will show an *e while others will show an *o; in the latter, *e/o (as the ablaut vowel is often written) will drop out (zero grade) or lengthen (lengthened grade) or may show up in normal grade. Proto-Indo-European *e > Proto-Germanic *i and *o > *a, so sing/sang is an example of qualitative ablaut; PIE *CnC > PGmc. *CunC, so PIE *snghw- > PGmc. *sung- > sung (as well as a nominal form *sunga: which by a-umlaut gives us "song"). [1] I can't write a macron ("long mark") over the vowels, so I'm using a modern convention in which colon marks length. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell http://www.pdpplanet.org/ From evan at snarc.net Mon Jul 20 14:12:17 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 15:12:17 -0400 Subject: Consignment sales @ VCF East In-Reply-To: <20090720113405.M98692@shell.lmi.net> References: <4A63D33C.9080809@snarc.net>, <4A63807D.14668.7E3FABF@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A63E879.1090301@snarc.net> <4A645094.20895.B10D5BF@cclist.sydex.com> <4A64B711.4090905@snarc.net> <20090720113405.M98692@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4A64C191.3070205@snarc.net> > > You might want to consider a cumulative total per seller. > I figured that is obvious, but I didn't count on you guys giving me agita on the details. :) > Consider what to charge for a book. > Prices are up to the sellers. We're also have a MARCH book sale, priced by the pound. Select the books you want to purchase, bring them to our scale, we multiply by a couple of dollars per pound, you pay. (That is distinct from the consignment area.) From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 20 14:30:48 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 12:30:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Consignment sales @ VCF East In-Reply-To: <4A64C191.3070205@snarc.net> References: <4A63D33C.9080809@snarc.net>, <4A63807D.14668.7E3FABF@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A63E879.1090301@snarc.net> <4A645094.20895.B10D5BF@cclist.sydex.com> <4A64B711.4090905@snarc.net> <20090720113405.M98692@shell.lmi.net> <4A64C191.3070205@snarc.net> Message-ID: <20090720122113.T98692@shell.lmi.net> > > You might want to consider a cumulative total per seller. On Mon, 20 Jul 2009, Evan Koblentz wrote: > I figured that is obvious, but I didn't count on you guys giving me > agita on the details. :) If you don't specify, the ambiguities may cost you. As previously written, the 15% and rounding would be done independently on each item, and that would deprive you of your income. > > Consider what to charge for a book. > Prices are up to the sellers. certainly. BUT, consider how much you want to charge the seller to sell a book. A FEW don't matter, but the numbers can climb. If lots of people bring small boxen of books, you could end up processing hundreds of sales with no profit. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From starbase89 at gmail.com Mon Jul 20 14:41:06 2009 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 15:41:06 -0400 Subject: Consignment sales @ VCF East In-Reply-To: <20090720122113.T98692@shell.lmi.net> References: <4A63D33C.9080809@snarc.net> <4A63807D.14668.7E3FABF@cclist.sydex.com> <4A63E879.1090301@snarc.net> <4A645094.20895.B10D5BF@cclist.sydex.com> <4A64B711.4090905@snarc.net> <20090720113405.M98692@shell.lmi.net> <4A64C191.3070205@snarc.net> <20090720122113.T98692@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <2b1f1f550907201241n1c5c8c6fk34b4f3a4626faaf3@mail.gmail.com> What about a fee for using the consignment area, based upon cu-ft used? That assumes things aren't big ticket, of course Joe On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 3:30 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > You might want to consider a cumulative total per seller. > On Mon, 20 Jul 2009, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > I figured that is obvious, but I didn't count on you guys giving me > > agita on the details. :) > > If you don't specify, the ambiguities may cost you. > As previously written, the 15% and rounding would be done independently on > each item, and that would deprive you of your income. > > > > Consider what to charge for a book. > > Prices are up to the sellers. > > certainly. > BUT, consider how much you want to charge the seller to sell a book. A > FEW don't matter, but the numbers can climb. If lots of people bring > small boxen of books, you could end up processing hundreds of sales with > no profit. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From evan at snarc.net Mon Jul 20 14:48:54 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 15:48:54 -0400 Subject: Consignment sales @ VCF East In-Reply-To: <2b1f1f550907201241n1c5c8c6fk34b4f3a4626faaf3@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A63D33C.9080809@snarc.net> <4A63807D.14668.7E3FABF@cclist.sydex.com> <4A63E879.1090301@snarc.net> <4A645094.20895.B10D5BF@cclist.sydex.com> <4A64B711.4090905@snarc.net> <20090720113405.M98692@shell.lmi.net> <4A64C191.3070205@snarc.net> <20090720122113.T98692@shell.lmi.net> <2b1f1f550907201241n1c5c8c6fk34b4f3a4626faaf3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A64CA26.90905@snarc.net> > > What about a fee for using the consignment area, based upon cu-ft used? That assumes things aren't big ticket, of course > No, that gets too complicated. VCF Consignment is a long-established phenomenon with rules set by Sellam. We will follow them. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jul 20 05:05:46 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 03:05:46 -0700 Subject: Consignment sales @ VCF East In-Reply-To: <4A64B457.1090806@snarc.net> References: <4A63D33C.9080809@snarc.net> <4A63807D.14668.7E3FABF@cclist.sydex.com> <4A634B45.8080603@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A64B457.1090806@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4A64417A.5080703@jetnet.ab.ca> Evan Koblentz wrote: >> However considering we are talking vintage computers, I don't expect >> to see C64's, XT's and Coco's > I'm baffled at your comment. Sarcasm, or something else? > While I admit they are vintage, they tend to be flea-market or boot-sale type of product, rather that something that would be the more unusual product for sale that I would expect at VCF. From evan at snarc.net Mon Jul 20 16:15:30 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 17:15:30 -0400 Subject: Consignment sales @ VCF East In-Reply-To: <4A64417A.5080703@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4A63D33C.9080809@snarc.net> <4A63807D.14668.7E3FABF@cclist.sydex.com> <4A634B45.8080603@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A64B457.1090806@snarc.net> <4A64417A.5080703@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4A64DE72.8060100@snarc.net> > >>> However considering we are talking vintage computers, I don't expect >>> to see C64's, XT's and Coco's >> I'm baffled at your comment. Sarcasm, or something else? > While I admit they are vintage, they tend to be flea-market or > boot-sale type of product, rather that something that would be the > more unusual product for sale that I would expect at VCF. So? The presence of common items doesn't prevent the presence of uncommon ones. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jul 20 05:18:28 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 03:18:28 -0700 Subject: Consignment sales @ VCF East In-Reply-To: <4A64DE72.8060100@snarc.net> References: <4A63D33C.9080809@snarc.net> <4A63807D.14668.7E3FABF@cclist.sydex.com> <4A634B45.8080603@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A64B457.1090806@snarc.net> <4A64417A.5080703@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A64DE72.8060100@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4A644474.7090502@jetnet.ab.ca> Evan Koblentz wrote: >> >>>> However considering we are talking vintage computers, I don't expect >>>> to see C64's, XT's and Coco's >>> I'm baffled at your comment. Sarcasm, or something else? >> While I admit they are vintage, they tend to be flea-market or >> boot-sale type of product, rather that something that would be the >> more unusual product for sale that I would expect at VCF. > So? The presence of common items doesn't prevent the presence of > uncommon ones. > True,but what is to prevent say last season's old PC's from being dumped at VCF. Ben. From evan at snarc.net Mon Jul 20 16:28:30 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 17:28:30 -0400 Subject: Consignment sales @ VCF East In-Reply-To: <4A644474.7090502@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4A63D33C.9080809@snarc.net> <4A63807D.14668.7E3FABF@cclist.sydex.com> <4A634B45.8080603@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A64B457.1090806@snarc.net> <4A64417A.5080703@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A64DE72.8060100@snarc.net> <4A644474.7090502@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4A64E17E.50804@snarc.net> > True,but what is to prevent say last season's old PC's from being > dumped at VCF. VCF East management (which is me, assuming Sellam doesn't attend in person) reserves the right to enforce on-topicness. :) From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 20 16:42:15 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:42:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Consignment sales @ VCF East In-Reply-To: <4A644474.7090502@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4A63D33C.9080809@snarc.net> <4A63807D.14668.7E3FABF@cclist.sydex.com> <4A634B45.8080603@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A64B457.1090806@snarc.net> <4A64417A.5080703@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A64DE72.8060100@snarc.net> <4A644474.7090502@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20090720144145.H98692@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 20 Jul 2009, Ben wrote: > True,but what is to prevent say last season's old PC's from being > dumped at VCF. Ben. Would you want to try to peddle Dells and Packard Bells to THIS crowd? From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Jul 20 16:51:09 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:51:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Consignment sales @ VCF East In-Reply-To: <20090720144145.H98692@shell.lmi.net> References: <4A63D33C.9080809@snarc.net> <4A63807D.14668.7E3FABF@cclist.sydex.com> <4A634B45.8080603@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A64B457.1090806@snarc.net> <4A64417A.5080703@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A64DE72.8060100@snarc.net> <4A644474.7090502@jetnet.ab.ca> <20090720144145.H98692@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Jul 2009, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 20 Jul 2009, Ben wrote: >> True,but what is to prevent say last season's old PC's from being >> dumped at VCF. Ben. > > Would you want to try to peddle Dells and Packard Bells to THIS crowd? > ....and honestly expect to live through the attempt? :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From doc at vaxen.net Mon Jul 20 16:53:19 2009 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 16:53:19 -0500 Subject: Consignment sales @ VCF East In-Reply-To: <20090720144145.H98692@shell.lmi.net> References: <4A63D33C.9080809@snarc.net> <4A63807D.14668.7E3FABF@cclist.sydex.com> <4A634B45.8080603@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A64B457.1090806@snarc.net> <4A64417A.5080703@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A64DE72.8060100@snarc.net> <4A644474.7090502@jetnet.ab.ca> <20090720144145.H98692@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4A64E74F.5080907@vaxen.net> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 20 Jul 2009, Ben wrote: >> True,but what is to prevent say last season's old PC's from being >> dumped at VCF. Ben. > > Would you want to try to peddle Dells and Packard Bells to THIS crowd? I would accept a P-B VGA monitor, circa 1993 or so, as on-topic here. Not because of the 10-year rule, even though it passes, but because its sheer awfulness deserves recognition. Doc From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 20 16:57:27 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:57:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Consignment sales @ VCF East In-Reply-To: References: <4A63D33C.9080809@snarc.net> <4A63807D.14668.7E3FABF@cclist.sydex.com> <4A634B45.8080603@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A64B457.1090806@snarc.net> <4A64417A.5080703@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A64DE72.8060100@snarc.net> <4A644474.7090502@jetnet.ab.ca> <20090720144145.H98692@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20090720145557.B98692@shell.lmi.net> > >> True,but what is to prevent say last season's old PC's from being > >> dumped at VCF. Ben. > > Would you want to try to peddle Dells and Packard Bells to THIS crowd? On Mon, 20 Jul 2009, Gene Buckle wrote: > ....and honestly expect to live through the attempt? :) Now, now. We no longer defenstrate people who show up with Windoze machines. From dlangille at myyearbook.com Mon Jul 20 09:22:29 2009 From: dlangille at myyearbook.com (Dan Langille) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 10:22:29 -0400 Subject: Mimic 8080 Message-ID: <6dd019370907200722y5b56045n3b6473d38e0cfba4@mail.gmail.com> Re: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2003-April/013110.html I bought and built a MIMIC 8080. I sold it a few years ago on ebay. That may be my ebay listing. It was designed by Frank (now deceased) and Bink Tait. I'm pretty sure this was mid-late-1970's. -- Dan Langille myYearbook.com From evan at snarc.net Mon Jul 20 17:02:11 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 18:02:11 -0400 Subject: Consignment sales @ VCF East In-Reply-To: <4A64E74F.5080907@vaxen.net> References: <4A63D33C.9080809@snarc.net> <4A63807D.14668.7E3FABF@cclist.sydex.com> <4A634B45.8080603@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A64B457.1090806@snarc.net> <4A64417A.5080703@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A64DE72.8060100@snarc.net> <4A644474.7090502@jetnet.ab.ca> <20090720144145.H98692@shell.lmi.net> <4A64E74F.5080907@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4A64E963.4090704@snarc.net> > Not because of the 10-year rule, even though it passes, but because > its sheer awfulness deserves recognition. Do you REALLY want to start YATYR thread? I don't. From evan at snarc.net Mon Jul 20 17:03:46 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 18:03:46 -0400 Subject: Consignment sales @ VCF East In-Reply-To: <20090720145557.B98692@shell.lmi.net> References: <4A63D33C.9080809@snarc.net> <4A63807D.14668.7E3FABF@cclist.sydex.com> <4A634B45.8080603@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A64B457.1090806@snarc.net> <4A64417A.5080703@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A64DE72.8060100@snarc.net> <4A644474.7090502@jetnet.ab.ca> <20090720144145.H98692@shell.lmi.net> <20090720145557.B98692@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4A64E9C2.4080609@snarc.net> > > Now, now. > We no longer defenstrate people who show up with Windoze machines. All joking aside, I think a Windows 1.0 exhibit would be interesting, especially if it's compared to other shells of the time. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 20 17:16:02 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 15:16:02 -0700 Subject: Consignment sales @ VCF East In-Reply-To: <20090720144145.H98692@shell.lmi.net> References: <4A63D33C.9080809@snarc.net>, <4A644474.7090502@jetnet.ab.ca>, <20090720144145.H98692@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4A648A32.1495.BF1E71E@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Jul 2009 at 14:42, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 20 Jul 2009, Ben wrote: > > True,but what is to prevent say last season's old PC's from being > > dumped at VCF. Ben. > > Would you want to try to peddle Dells and Packard Bells to THIS crowd? I'd buy a PB250 in a flash, but it's not likely that one's going to show up for sale at VCF. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 20 17:20:42 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 15:20:42 -0700 Subject: Microscience HH612 hard drive = value? In-Reply-To: <4A645C2E.3000702@gmail.com> References: <14984.63414.qm@web110613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , <4A645C2E.3000702@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A648B4A.19765.BF6301A@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Jul 2009 at 6:59, Jules Richardson wrote: > Yes, and I've often found that ST506/412 drives seem to suffer > age-related faults - i.e. they can go bad just from sitting there, > rather than being actively used. Personally I wouldn't risk it unless > it had been tested... I wonder if being occasionally used extends their lifetime? I've got a Quantum 540 that's been in more or less consistent use (powered up every couple of months) and it's given no hint of problems. Maybe I should hook up the nearly-new ST506 that's been sitting in my parts cabinet for over 20 years to see if it even spins up. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 20 17:39:28 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 18:39:28 -0400 Subject: Microscience HH612 hard drive = value? In-Reply-To: <4A648B4A.19765.BF6301A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <14984.63414.qm@web110613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4A645C2E.3000702@gmail.com> <4A648B4A.19765.BF6301A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 6:20 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 20 Jul 2009 at 6:59, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Yes, and I've often found that ST506/412 drives seem to suffer >> age-related faults - i.e. they can go bad just from sitting there... > > I wonder if being occasionally used extends their lifetime? Given that the two common HDA faults (not counting head crashes) that I've personally seen from drives of that era are stiction (ST225 and ST241 especially) and the rubber head-knock-stop turning to goo (DEC RD53/Micropolis 1335), my answer would be probably yes and probably no. It depends, I think, on what faults the model in front of you is known for if running periodically would help or not. I think the rubber-to-goo thing is entirely based on the design of the drive and the composition of the rubber itself and not power-on-hours; OTOH, periodic operation might help stiction, depending design/construction factors such as too much/too sticky medium lubricant. Overall, I'd say run some vs not at all is probably better, but I have a stack of 5.25" drives that haven't been run in years. I'm planning on checking my idle drives for stiction as I find places to install them. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 20 17:43:28 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 15:43:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Consignment sales @ VCF East In-Reply-To: <4A64E74F.5080907@vaxen.net> References: <4A63D33C.9080809@snarc.net> <4A63807D.14668.7E3FABF@cclist.sydex.com> <4A634B45.8080603@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A64B457.1090806@snarc.net> <4A64417A.5080703@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A64DE72.8060100@snarc.net> <4A644474.7090502@jetnet.ab.ca> <20090720144145.H98692@shell.lmi.net> <4A64E74F.5080907@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <20090720154251.I98692@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 20 Jul 2009, Doc Shipley wrote: > I would accept a P-B VGA monitor, circa 1993 or so, as on-topic here. > Not because of the 10-year rule, even though it passes, but because > its sheer awfulness deserves recognition. the "Edsel principle"? From scheefj at netscape.net Mon Jul 20 22:31:47 2009 From: scheefj at netscape.net (Jim Scheef) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 23:31:47 -0400 Subject: Wanted: OS/2 version of Virtual PC In-Reply-To: <4A62298A.6000302@netscape.net> References: <95838e090906020819v36d45508j4fa8f0a746c73c61@mail.gmail.com> <4A62298A.6000302@netscape.net> Message-ID: <4A6536A3.9050509@netscape.net> What I'm looking for is the OS/2 equivalent of the Virtual PC program that you download today from Microsoft - the host or hypervisor that runs on OS/2 Warp along with the facility that makes a VHD and the control file that goes along with it. Jim Jim Scheef wrote: > Several years ago there was a company called Connectix that made what > is now Microsoft Virtual PC. I would very much like to obtain a copy > of the version that ran on OS/2. This is needed for my networking > project so I can play with OS/2 LAN Manager running in emulation. > > An ISO of the CD would be fine but I would be willing to pay modestly > for a complete package with any manuals, etc. > > Please reply off list. > > Thanks, > Jim From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Jul 21 00:30:51 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 00:30:51 -0500 Subject: Wanted: OS/2 version of Virtual PC In-Reply-To: <4A6536A3.9050509@netscape.net> References: <95838e090906020819v36d45508j4fa8f0a746c73c61@mail.gmail.com> <4A62298A.6000302@netscape.net> <4A6536A3.9050509@netscape.net> Message-ID: <4A65528B.7080408@oldskool.org> Jim Scheef wrote: > What I'm looking for is the OS/2 equivalent of the Virtual PC program > that you download today from Microsoft - the host or hypervisor that > runs on OS/2 Warp along with the facility that makes a VHD and the > control file that goes along with it. Why is it a requirement that it run on OS/2? You wrote you want to "play with OS/2 LAN Manager running in emulation" -- just do that, running OS/2 Warp in a virtual session. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From jws at jwsss.com Mon Jul 20 17:18:08 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 15:18:08 -0700 Subject: Consignment sales -- saving software - In-Reply-To: <4A64E9C2.4080609@snarc.net> References: <4A63D33C.9080809@snarc.net> <4A63807D.14668.7E3FABF@cclist.sydex.com> <4A634B45.8080603@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A64B457.1090806@snarc.net> <4A64417A.5080703@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A64DE72.8060100@snarc.net> <4A644474.7090502@jetnet.ab.ca> <20090720144145.H98692@shell.lmi.net> <20090720145557.B98692@shell.lmi.net> <4A64E9C2.4080609@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4A64ED20.5000404@jwsss.com> you probably are entitled to do that to windows people, but I do have a copy of windows 3.1 on vmware that is fun and sometimes useful. I'd love to have the older version, but the 3.1 wfw can do networking and actually is useful for running ancient 16 bit software w/o a fossil computer catching fire around the house. or if possible, run it on win98 (now barely legal to mention here). I regard vmware, emulation, and such as valid here for the mission of preservation of software Jim Evan Koblentz wrote: >> >> Now, now. >> We no longer defenstrate people who show up with Windoze machines. > All joking aside, I think a Windows 1.0 exhibit would be interesting, > especially if it's compared to other shells of the time. > > From Alan.Perry at Sun.COM Mon Jul 20 18:06:39 2009 From: Alan.Perry at Sun.COM (Alan Perry) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 16:06:39 -0700 Subject: More thinning of the herd Message-ID: <4A64F87F.2040808@sun.com> The NeXT slab and the DEC power supply is now in good hands. The Canon BJ-10e is still available. It is the printer and power supply, the user manual and the programmers manual. It worked the last time that I used it, but that was some ago. CentreCOM MR820TR 8-port 10baseT hub with AUI and 10base2. Comes with the manual as well. Sun Ultra 1/200 Creator 3D with 20" Sun CRT monitor (the one with the remote control for adjusting the display). 384M memory. 18G SCA SCSI. CD drive (I think, may have DVD). Will reinstall OS (Solaris 7, *BSD or Linux). Local delivery only. NeXTSTEP 3.1 User and Developer for Black (NeXT) hardware. Includes box and manuals. Trades considered, but I am mostly in purge mode right now. I am looking for: - a copy of OpenSTEP that will run on SPARC - replacements for the fluorescent tubes that illuminate the LCD the display in a SPARCstation Voyager - 13W3 (computer end) to VGA or DVI (display end) adapter Located in the Seattle area. From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Mon Jul 20 19:51:03 2009 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 10:51:03 +1000 Subject: source code available for Apollo Guidance Computer Message-ID: <5f2019e50907201751u4d4f5f68u9ace85c731c3975c@mail.gmail.com> blog entry with announcement: http://googlecode.blogspot.com/2009/07/apollo-11-missions-40th-anniversary-one.html Example of subroutines to lift-off LM from the moon: http://code.google.com/p/virtualagc/source/browse/trunk/Luminary131/BURN_BABY_BURN--MASTER_IGNITION_ROUTINE.s?r=258 # Filename: BURN_BABY_BURN--MASTER_IGNITION_ROUTINE.s and it contains interesting French phrases; anyone care to suggest its meaning in this context? see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honi_soit_qui_mal_y_pense): # THE MASTER IGNITION ROUTINE WAS CONCEIVED AND EXECUTED, AND (NOTA BENE) IS MAINTAINED BY ADLER AND EYLES. # # HONI SOIT QUI MAL Y PENSE And as expected storage is at a premium, see this comment: # MOD NO. -- 0 TO COMPLETELY REWRITE THE DOWN TELEMETRY PROGRAM AND DOWNLINK ERASABLE DUMP PROGRAM FOR THE # PURPOSE OF SAVING APPROXIMATELY 150 WORDS OF CORE STORAGE. Acknowledgments: # This source code has been transcribed or otherwise adapted from digitized # images of a hardcopy from the MIT Museum. The digitization was performed # by Paul Fjeld, and arranged for by Deborah Douglas of the Museum. Many # thanks to both. From halarewich at gmail.com Tue Jul 21 02:33:29 2009 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 00:33:29 -0700 Subject: More thinning of the herd In-Reply-To: <4A64F87F.2040808@sun.com> References: <4A64F87F.2040808@sun.com> Message-ID: <6d6501090907210033r3651d44bve4601543219bffc0@mail.gmail.com> check here for sun 13w3 adapters http://www.monoprice.com/products/search.asp?keyword=13w3 On 7/20/09, Alan Perry wrote: > > > The NeXT slab and the DEC power supply is now in good hands. > > The Canon BJ-10e is still available. It is the printer and power supply, > the user manual and the programmers manual. It worked the last time that I > used it, but that was some ago. > > CentreCOM MR820TR 8-port 10baseT hub with AUI and 10base2. Comes with the > manual as well. > > Sun Ultra 1/200 Creator 3D with 20" Sun CRT monitor (the one with the > remote control for adjusting the display). 384M memory. 18G SCA SCSI. CD > drive (I think, may have DVD). Will reinstall OS (Solaris 7, *BSD or > Linux). Local delivery only. > > NeXTSTEP 3.1 User and Developer for Black (NeXT) hardware. Includes box > and manuals. > > Trades considered, but I am mostly in purge mode right now. I am looking > for: > - a copy of OpenSTEP that will run on SPARC > - replacements for the fluorescent tubes that illuminate the LCD the > display in a SPARCstation Voyager > - 13W3 (computer end) to VGA or DVI (display end) adapter > > Located in the Seattle area. > From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jul 21 08:52:13 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 14:52:13 +0100 Subject: [WAAAY OT] RE: VAXen [was RE: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards...] In-Reply-To: References: <4006821A-0D61-4EDE-9B0C-005C96960E83@microspot.co.uk> <575131af0907171417k5eabae9ei115fda3c430fbf76@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0907190412o30cf53f3w9314a155fc2faf6b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0907210652x27bc523esae9d96bc3127f70b@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/20 Rich Alderson : > For those not interested in linguistics, this will be boring. ?YHBW. > >> From: Liam Proven >> Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2009 4:13 AM > >> 2009/7/17 Rich Alderson : > >>> I just took at look at the Wrongipedia page to see whether the confusion >>> was Liam's or theirs. ?It's theirs. > >> I would feebly say in my defence that I though it was odd that the >> strong/weak usage here did not match that for verbs, where of course >> strong verbs are those that do not follow the standard pattern for >> conjugation - but I had a reference, so I let it be. Serves me right. > >> Have you fixed the article? > > I have corrected a number of Indo-European related articles in the past. ?My > corrections get removed by some twit. ?I don't bother any longer--life is too > short. > >>>> One of the irregular plurals is -en: ox/oxen, child/children, man/men, >>>> brother/brethren. > >>> man/men is umlaut, like goose/geese. > >> Umlaut? Do you mean ablaut? > > No. ?These are two different processes/phenomena. > > Most people are familiar with the term "umlaut" as the name for the two little > dots over a, o, and u in German, but it more properly refers to a phonological > process in which a sound in a following syllable affects a sound preceding it. > The most common form of umlaut in the Germanic languages is called i-umlaut; in > some of the Germanic languages u-umlaut is present (an _a_ becomes _o_ in a > syllable preceding a syllable with a _u_, for example). ?Umlaut is automatic > until the syllable with the *i or *j (= _y_--the symbols were created by German > linguists in the 19th Century) is lost. > > PGmc. *gans, pl. *gansiz = *gensiz by i-umlaut. ?In German, we get Gans, G?nser; in English (and Frisian, but that's not important now), the *n is lost with > lengthening of the preceding vowel, and we end up with Anglo-Saxon go:s, ge:s > > Modern English goose, geese.[1] > > PGmc. *manu, pl. *manijaz = *menijaz > English man, men (and German Mann, > M?nner). > > Ablaut, on the other hand, is already in place in the oldest Indo-European > languages, and the conditioning factor(s) for it have been argued about for > more than 200 years. ?There are two (at least) kinds of ablaut, called > qualitative and quantitative. ?In the former, some forms of a stem will show an > *e while others will show an *o; in the latter, *e/o (as the ablaut vowel is > often written) will drop out (zero grade) or lengthen (lengthened grade) or may > show up in normal grade. ?Proto-Indo-European *e > Proto-Germanic *i and *o > > *a, so sing/sang is an example of qualitative ablaut; PIE *CnC > PGmc. *CunC, > so PIE *snghw- > PGmc. *sung- > sung (as well as a nominal form *sunga: which > by a-umlaut gives us "song"). > > [1] I can't write a macron ("long mark") over the vowels, so I'm using a modern > ? ?convention in which colon marks length. > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Server Engineer > Vulcan, Inc. > 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 > Seattle, WA 98104 > > mailto:RichA at vulcan.com > (206) 342-2239 > (206) 465-2916 cell > > http://www.pdpplanet.org/ Fascinating stuff. Thanks for that! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jul 21 09:00:28 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 15:00:28 +0100 Subject: OT Discussions In-Reply-To: <1248046157.5705.1.camel@elric> References: <200907180005.n6I05fEb016752@floodgap.com> <4A613DBD.4090504@brutman.com> <1247906513.12932.37.camel@elric> <001601ca08c5$e9cbaf60$c600a8c0@JWEST> <1248046157.5705.1.camel@elric> Message-ID: <575131af0907210700w4a947b4ck3d4b51da4df08feb@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/20 Gordon JC Pearce : > On Sun, 2009-07-19 at 18:09 -0500, Jay West wrote: >> I agree with Michael. > > Okay, then. ?I haven't got any classic computers any more so I don't see > a lot of point in hanging around on the list if it's going to lose the > interesting stuff. > > So long, and thanks for all the fish. > > Gordon 2M0YEQ And I agree with Gordon - and will be very sad to see him go. If you don't like OT chatter, resign from CCtalk and just stick to CCtech. Rigorously on-topic fora are almost inevitably very dry and dull. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 21 10:04:57 2009 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 11:04:57 -0400 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <30A8EC76-9FC4-4222-A0E1-80DFE69A56B8@mail.msu.edu> References: <68BEAAEBE3C7431D91E067ED9330DDD2@barry> <6dbe3c380907151715q6501cf8ft7abc10282ea3a1f@mail.gmail.com> <1247727431.12932.29.camel@elric> <30A8EC76-9FC4-4222-A0E1-80DFE69A56B8@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4A65D919.1060203@sbcglobal.net> Josh Dersch wrote: > > > On Jul 16, 2009, at 2:57 AM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >> On Wed, 2009-07-15 at 19:15 -0500, Brian Lanning wrote: >> >>> Secondly, I think it would serve a lot of us here if everyone were >>> aware of Aperger's Syndrome. I have it, and probably a very >>> significant percentage of people who read this mail list have it as >>> well. People who have it could have a several opinions about it. You >>> could for example, believe that you're right and that nothing is wrong >>> with you, and that you're completely normal, in spite of lacking an >>> adequate frame of reference with which to compare your experience. >>> Or, you could accept that you have it, but conclude that you're manner >>> of thinking, behaving and being is better than that of everyone else >>> and refuse to modify your behavior in an attempt to better cohabitate >>> with your neighbors. Or, you could accept that you have it and decide >>> to work toward learning some people skills in an attempt to at least >>> partially improve the opinions of the people you meet. >> >> Or, you could accept that Asperger's Syndrome is a load of nonsense made >> up by a desperate but unremarkable doctor wanting to make his mark in >> his chosen field, and used to excuse an entirely fixable lack of social >> skills. >> >> Think you might be an Aspie? Here's some free self-help advice - as >> Chuck Pahalniuk might say, "You are not a unique and beautiful >> snowflake". > > Oh, yes, please -- let's have an argument about Asperger's here, based > on "insightful" quotes from frigging "Fight Club." > > > Or better yet, no. > > Josh Ya know, I saw the message, and suffered from a bit of de ja vu.... A few weeks ago, someone brought up Asperger's on the Rockbox mailing list, basically saying all the programmers there had it. Of course, war ensued... I wonder if Brian is on the Rockbox mailing list..... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Tue Jul 21 05:29:55 2009 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:29:55 +1000 Subject: seeking documentation for the LC8-P M8365 LA180 Printer Control card for the PDP-8 Message-ID: <5f2019e50907210329x3e7a94bdub5cb651afcf72649@mail.gmail.com> I am hoping to get a PDP-8/E soon so I grabbed the LC8-P off eBay with the idea it might provide an easy way to get a simple I/O capability for the PDP-8. I expect it could be quite similar to the LC8-E but it would help to have the schematic and description to be sure. thanks, nigel. From ronan.scaife at dcu.ie Tue Jul 21 09:43:03 2009 From: ronan.scaife at dcu.ie (Ronan Scaife) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 15:43:03 +0100 Subject: looking for ASR43 tech docs Message-ID: <4A65D3F7.9010503@dcu.ie> Dear all, 1. my several attempts to subscribe to this list have failed; can anyone help? 2. I bought the ASR43 paper tape attachment for a Teletype Model 43 on Ebay last month. As the punch advance does not seem to work, I need to gain access to any relevant technical documents that may be available. I have done an exhaustive search. I am prepared to pay a reasonable amount for a scanned pdf (or even paper) copy of service or assembly drawings or schematics. I am located in Dublin, Ireland. Best Wishes, -- From alanp at snowmoose.com Tue Jul 21 10:22:00 2009 From: alanp at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 08:22:00 -0700 Subject: More thinning of the herd Message-ID: <4A65DD18.9010307@snowmoose.com> Yesterday, I posted the message below. However, I accidentally posted it from my work e-mail at Sun. If you respond, please respond to my personal e-mail - alanp at snowmoose.com. Thanks. > The NeXT slab and the DEC power supply is now in good hands. > > The Canon BJ-10e is still available. It is the printer and power > supply, the user manual and the programmers manual. It worked the last > time that I used it, but that was some ago. > > CentreCOM MR820TR 8-port 10baseT hub with AUI and 10base2. Comes with > the manual as well. > > Sun Ultra 1/200 Creator 3D with 20" Sun CRT monitor (the one with the > remote control for adjusting the display). 384M memory. 18G SCA SCSI. > CD drive (I think, may have DVD). Will reinstall OS (Solaris 7, *BSD > or Linux). Local delivery only. > > NeXTSTEP 3.1 User and Developer for Black (NeXT) hardware. Includes box > and manuals. > > Trades considered, but I am mostly in purge mode right now. I am > looking for: > - a copy of OpenSTEP that will run on SPARC > - replacements for the fluorescent tubes that illuminate the LCD the > display in a SPARCstation Voyager > - 13W3 (computer end) to VGA or DVI (display end) adapter > > Located in the Seattle area. From mross666 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 21 10:24:35 2009 From: mross666 at hotmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 15:24:35 +0000 Subject: Tape Drive FAIL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-MOkZ2d1Ls Enjoy Mike http://www.corestore.org _________________________________________________________________ Bing? brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try it now. http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MLOGEN&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_MLOGEN_Local_Local_Restaurants_1x1 From mross666 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 21 10:27:05 2009 From: mross666 at hotmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 15:27:05 +0000 Subject: Disk drive FAIL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcc5fJOgp7A Enjoy Mike http://www.corestore.org _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? SkyDrive?: Store, access, and share your photos. See how. http://windowslive.com/Online/SkyDrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_CS_SD_photos_072009 From mross666 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 21 10:31:10 2009 From: mross666 at hotmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 15:31:10 +0000 Subject: pdp-10 SUCCESS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVAHSzz9-Zg That's more like it! Mike http://www.corestore.org _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? Hotmail?: Celebrate the moment with your favorite sports pics. Check it out. http://www.windowslive.com/Online/Hotmail/Campaign/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_QA_HM_sports_photos_072009&cat=sports From alanp at snowmoose.com Tue Jul 21 10:35:36 2009 From: alanp at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 08:35:36 -0700 Subject: More thinning of the herd Message-ID: <4A65E048.90800@snowmoose.com> Thanks. For everyone else, cross the 13W3 adapter off of the list of things that I am looking for ina a trade. alan Chris Halarewich wrote: > check here for sun 13w3 adapters > http://www.monoprice.com/products/search.asp?keyword=13w3 > > On 7/20/09, Alan Perry wrote: > > > > > > The NeXT slab and the DEC power supply is now in good hands. > > > > The Canon BJ-10e is still available. It is the printer and power > supply, > > the user manual and the programmers manual. It worked the last time > that I > > used it, but that was some ago. > > > > CentreCOM MR820TR 8-port 10baseT hub with AUI and 10base2. Comes > with the > > manual as well. > > > > Sun Ultra 1/200 Creator 3D with 20" Sun CRT monitor (the one with the > > remote control for adjusting the display). 384M memory. 18G SCA > SCSI. CD > > drive (I think, may have DVD). Will reinstall OS (Solaris 7, *BSD or > > Linux). Local delivery only. > > > > NeXTSTEP 3.1 User and Developer for Black (NeXT) hardware. Includes box > > and manuals. > > > > Trades considered, but I am mostly in purge mode right now. I am > looking > > for: > > - a copy of OpenSTEP that will run on SPARC > > - replacements for the fluorescent tubes that illuminate the LCD the > > display in a SPARCstation Voyager > > - 13W3 (computer end) to VGA or DVI (display end) adapter > > > > Located in the Seattle area. From evan at snarc.net Tue Jul 21 11:44:24 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 12:44:24 -0400 Subject: Consignment sales -- saving software - In-Reply-To: <4A64ED20.5000404@jwsss.com> References: <4A63D33C.9080809@snarc.net> <4A63807D.14668.7E3FABF@cclist.sydex.com> <4A634B45.8080603@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A64B457.1090806@snarc.net> <4A64417A.5080703@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A64DE72.8060100@snarc.net> <4A644474.7090502@jetnet.ab.ca> <20090720144145.H98692@shell.lmi.net> <20090720145557.B98692@shell.lmi.net> <4A64E9C2.4080609@snarc.net> <4A64ED20.5000404@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4A65F068.8090607@snarc.net> Anyone bringing Windows 3.x to VCF will be turned away, if not outright mocked and shot with cyanide-coated rubber bands. ("Go away or we shall taunt you a second time!") > you probably are entitled to do that to windows people, but I do have > a copy of windows 3.1 on vmware that is fun and sometimes useful. I'd > love to have the older version, but the 3.1 wfw can do networking and > actually is useful for running ancient 16 bit software w/o a fossil > computer catching fire around the house. From ray at arachelian.com Tue Jul 21 12:55:28 2009 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 13:55:28 -0400 Subject: Consignment sales -- saving software - In-Reply-To: <4A65F068.8090607@snarc.net> References: <4A63D33C.9080809@snarc.net> <4A63807D.14668.7E3FABF@cclist.sydex.com> <4A634B45.8080603@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A64B457.1090806@snarc.net> <4A64417A.5080703@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A64DE72.8060100@snarc.net> <4A644474.7090502@jetnet.ab.ca> <20090720144145.H98692@shell.lmi.net> <20090720145557.B98692@shell.lmi.net> <4A64E9C2.4080609@snarc.net> <4A64ED20.5000404@jwsss.com> <4A65F068.8090607@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4A660110.2010803@arachelian.com> Evan Koblentz wrote: > Anyone bringing Windows 3.x to VCF will be turned away, if not > outright mocked and shot with cyanide-coated rubber bands. ("Go away > or we shall taunt you a second time!") > Fetchez la vache! :-) From pontus at update.uu.se Tue Jul 21 12:59:47 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 19:59:47 +0200 Subject: pdp-10 SUCCESS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A660213.3020301@update.uu.se> Mike Ross wrote: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVAHSzz9-Zg > > That's more like it! > > hooray! What is your systems configuration (disks, memory) ? /P From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Jul 21 13:34:42 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 14:34:42 -0400 Subject: Consignment sales -- saving software - In-Reply-To: <4A660110.2010803@arachelian.com> References: <4A63D33C.9080809@snarc.net> <4A63807D.14668.7E3FABF@cclist.sydex.com> <4A634B45.8080603@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A64B457.1090806@snarc.net> <4A64417A.5080703@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A64DE72.8060100@snarc.net> <4A644474.7090502@jetnet.ab.ca> <20090720144145.H98692@shell.lmi.net> <20090720145557.B98692@shell.lmi.net> <4A64E9C2.4080609@snarc.net> <4A64ED20.5000404@jwsss.com> <4A65F068.8090607@snarc.net> <4A660110.2010803@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4A660A42.2060700@atarimuseum.com> Geeezzz.... what happens if someone shows up with a copy of Microsoft Windows "BOB" edition?!?!? Curt > Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> Anyone bringing Windows 3.x to VCF will be turned away, if not >> outright mocked and shot with cyanide-coated rubber bands. ("Go away >> or we shall taunt you a second time!") >> >> > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 21 14:28:57 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 12:28:57 -0700 Subject: Consignment sales -- saving software - In-Reply-To: <4A660A42.2060700@atarimuseum.com> References: <4A63D33C.9080809@snarc.net>, <4A660110.2010803@arachelian.com>, <4A660A42.2060700@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4A65B489.18475.107F50C3@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Jul 2009 at 14:34, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Geeezzz.... what happens if someone shows up with a copy of Microsoft > Windows "BOB" edition?!?!? Is it just an anti-Microsoft thing? Would someone get booted with a copy of TopView for sale? --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 21 15:07:09 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:07:09 -0400 Subject: Consignment sales -- saving software - In-Reply-To: <4A660A42.2060700@atarimuseum.com> References: <4A63D33C.9080809@snarc.net> <4A644474.7090502@jetnet.ab.ca> <20090720144145.H98692@shell.lmi.net> <20090720145557.B98692@shell.lmi.net> <4A64E9C2.4080609@snarc.net> <4A64ED20.5000404@jwsss.com> <4A65F068.8090607@snarc.net> <4A660110.2010803@arachelian.com> <4A660A42.2060700@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Geeezzz.... what happens if someone shows up with a copy of Microsoft > Windows "BOB" edition?!?!? They will be forced to use it. That should be punishment enough. -ethan From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jul 21 15:31:40 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 13:31:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Consignment sales -- saving software - In-Reply-To: from Ethan Dicks at "Jul 21, 9 04:07:09 pm" Message-ID: <200907212031.n6LKVeH6018672@floodgap.com> > > Geeezzz.... what happens if someone shows up with a copy of Microsoft > > Windows "BOB" edition?!?!? > > They will be forced to use it. That should be punishment enough. Dude. You are vicious. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Okay, who stopped payment on my reality check? ----------------------------- From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Jul 21 15:54:51 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 13:54:51 -0700 Subject: Consignment sales -- saving software - In-Reply-To: <200907212031.n6LKVeH6018672@floodgap.com> References: from Ethan Dicks at "Jul 21, 9 04:07:09 pm" <200907212031.n6LKVeH6018672@floodgap.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cameron Kaiser > Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 1:32 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Consignment sales -- saving software - > > > > Geeezzz.... what happens if someone shows up with a copy of > Microsoft > > > Windows "BOB" edition?!?!? > > > > They will be forced to use it. That should be punishment enough. > > Dude. You are vicious. > I'm not sure you can do that on American soil. Remember, the Geneva Conventions are 'cool' again. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 21 16:37:43 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 17:37:43 -0400 Subject: Disk drive FAIL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 11:27 AM, Mike Ross wrote: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcc5fJOgp7A Ow! Ow! Ow! That's awful! Poor RM03. -ethan From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jul 21 17:39:23 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 15:39:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Framemaker R5 for SunOS and more available Message-ID: Do you remember some months ago Dave McGuire dug up ten copies of Framemaker for SunOS. He didn't want the rigamarole of packing up each of them, so I volunteered to do that. Today I just received a big box containing the packages. I picked up one, noticed the tape on the media box was already cut, so I took a look. On the CD, dated January 1996, I see this: ===begin-quote=== FrameMaker Release 5 UNIX Silicon Graphics Sun HP DEC Alpha IBM AIX FrameMaker FrameMaker, International Edition Frame Developer's Kit Frame Reader ===end-quote=== I mounted ths disc and, yes, it seems as though those other versions are there (including for Solaris and SunOS). Anyhow, Kelly Leavitt has already emailed me to claim one. The other nine are available first-come-first-served. If you want one (one per person), email me NOW. They're available for cost of shipping, which works out like this: $price_to_you = ($shipping_from_mcguire / 10 ) + $shipping_to_you + $price_of_carton $shipping_from_mcguire == $45 $shipping_to_you == $5 (media mail in the US) $price_of_carton == $2 This works out to $11.50 if you're in the US. A package weighs 6 pounds and 5 ounces or 2.9 kilos -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jul 21 18:05:19 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:05:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tape Drive FAIL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Jul 2009, Mike Ross wrote: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-MOkZ2d1Ls > > Enjoy This one has a nice "ewww, yuck" factor -- a nice contrast to the exiting sight of a tape drive throwing tape in the air. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jul 21 19:36:46 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:36:46 -0400 Subject: Disk drive FAIL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Ow! ?Ow! ?Ow! > > That's awful! > > Poor RM03. Yes, a drive from "the trailer". We pulled a fair amount of goodies from that trailer, and I would say that the string of 3330s I pulled would give that RM03 a run for its money. Still, three cheers for powering up the machine. -- Will From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Tue Jul 21 20:43:22 2009 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 18:43:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT Discussions In-Reply-To: <1247906513.12932.37.camel@elric> Message-ID: <14948.2387.qm@web112221.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Yes but I agree with Michael, the SNR is pretty low here. I find that I delete a hell of a lot more than I read. The other problem is that good information is posted here, you have to filter through all the noise which is annoying after a while --- On Sat, 7/18/09, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > I like the noise.? If you don't, take it to cc-tech - > that's what it's > for. > > From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Jul 21 22:15:35 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 22:15:35 -0500 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <4A65D919.1060203@sbcglobal.net> References: <68BEAAEBE3C7431D91E067ED9330DDD2@barry> <6dbe3c380907151715q6501cf8ft7abc10282ea3a1f@mail.gmail.com> <1247727431.12932.29.camel@elric> <30A8EC76-9FC4-4222-A0E1-80DFE69A56B8@mail.msu.edu> <4A65D919.1060203@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380907212015u726dec4cnbf4ef50bdc2e62c1@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > ? ? ? ?Ya know, I saw the message, and suffered from a bit of de ja vu.... A > few weeks ago, someone brought up Asperger's on the Rockbox mailing list, > basically saying all the programmers there had it. Of course, war ensued... > ? ? ? ?I wonder if Brian is on the Rockbox mailing list..... No. Just lucky I guess. :-) It wasn't my intention to start a flame-war, so my apologies if that happened. If someone asks "What time is it?" and someone else responds, "It's 9:30." And you feel the overwhelming urge to respond with, "That's incorrect! It's 9:27!" Even if you're right, you're wrong. Time to read Tony Attwood's book. brian From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jul 22 01:23:30 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 23:23:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Framemaker packages gone Message-ID: All ten Framemaker packages have been claimed. Thanks! -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 22 09:18:41 2009 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 10:18:41 -0400 Subject: Do not call them PCMCIA Cards (was "An interesting eBay find ....) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380907212015u726dec4cnbf4ef50bdc2e62c1@mail.gmail.com> References: <68BEAAEBE3C7431D91E067ED9330DDD2@barry> <6dbe3c380907151715q6501cf8ft7abc10282ea3a1f@mail.gmail.com> <1247727431.12932.29.camel@elric> <30A8EC76-9FC4-4222-A0E1-80DFE69A56B8@mail.msu.edu> <4A65D919.1060203@sbcglobal.net> <6dbe3c380907212015u726dec4cnbf4ef50bdc2e62c1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A671FC1.3010606@sbcglobal.net> Brian Lanning wrote: > On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Dave > Woyciesjes wrote: >> Ya know, I saw the message, and suffered from a bit of de ja vu.... A >> few weeks ago, someone brought up Asperger's on the Rockbox mailing list, >> basically saying all the programmers there had it. Of course, war ensued... >> I wonder if Brian is on the Rockbox mailing list..... > > No. Just lucky I guess. :-) It wasn't my intention to start a > flame-war, so my apologies if that happened. K, no problem. Just really odd timing... > If someone asks "What time is it?" and someone else responds, "It's > 9:30." And you feel the overwhelming urge to respond with, "That's > incorrect! It's 9:27!" Even if you're right, you're wrong. Time to > read Tony Attwood's book. Ahh, ehh, nevermind..... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From shumaker at att.net Wed Jul 22 10:25:26 2009 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 11:25:26 -0400 Subject: large stash of pdp stuff in San Jose Ca In-Reply-To: <1247906513.12932.37.camel@elric> References: <200907180005.n6I05fEb016752@floodgap.com> <4A613DBD.4090504@brutman.com> <1247906513.12932.37.camel@elric> Message-ID: <4A672F66.6000509@att.net> Interesting offer on CraigsList in San Jose! item1277179251 includes a complete (5 cabinets worth) 111/70 system From slawmaster at gmail.com Wed Jul 22 10:39:06 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 08:39:06 -0700 Subject: large stash of pdp stuff in San Jose Ca In-Reply-To: <4A672F66.6000509@att.net> References: <200907180005.n6I05fEb016752@floodgap.com> <4A613DBD.4090504@brutman.com> <1247906513.12932.37.camel@elric> <4A672F66.6000509@att.net> Message-ID: <7d3530220907220839l89807dewc1daea03d642259c@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 8:25 AM, steve shumaker wrote: > Interesting offer on CraigsList in San Jose! > > item1277179251 > > includes a complete (5 cabinets worth) 111/70 system > Wonder if I can convince the boss to get it for the office... we were looking for a teletype but this would be at least as good, with the /70 we could run 7th ed. John -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Jul 22 10:57:28 2009 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 11:57:28 -0400 Subject: Lunar Lander source... Message-ID: Hi, Does anybody have a Z80 or 8080 source listing for a good raster graphic implementation of Lunar Lander? I'm going to be demoing my Cromemco loaded IMSAI at VCF East in September and while spacewar and tank war are fun, they require two players. I'd like a single player, relatively short (time wise) game and I think Lander is just what I'm after. Looking at my schedule, I'm not going to have time to write one from scratch but I should be able to port a good implementation to the Dazzler/D+7A. Tetris would be a second choice but a good player can tie up a tetris game for a long time. On a related note, does anybody have the source for Crush, Crumble and Chomp? Clearly, not for the show but I really enjoyed that game, back in the day. I had the PC BASIC source and I ported it to the Sanyo MBC550. I gave the Sanyo away before I started collecting and, as far as I can tell, CCC went with it. Thanks, Bill Sudbrink From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Jul 22 19:38:52 2009 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 19:38:52 -0500 Subject: Wanted: OS/2 version of Virtual PC Message-ID: At Sat, 18 Jul 2009 15:59:06 -0400, Jim Scheef wrote: >From: Jim Scheef >Subject: Wanted: OS/2 version of Virtual PC > >Several years ago there was a company called Connectix that made what is >now Microsoft Virtual PC. I would very much like to obtain a copy of the >version that ran on OS/2. This is needed for my networking project so I >can play with OS/2 LAN Manager running in emulation. > >An ISO of the CD would be fine but I would be willing to pay modestly >for a complete package with any manuals, etc. > >Please reply off list. > >Thanks, >Jim A friend of mine worked for Connectix, and I contacted him about this. His response was: At 0:53 -0700 7/21/09, John Chang wrote: >Sorry, Mark. I do not know where to get a copy. Connectix Virtual PC ran on >the Mac only, and it emulated MS DOS and Windows. I do not think >that Insignia >Solutions SoftPC and SoftWindows ran on OS/2. OS/2 like Windows NT >is supposed >to run its own emulation mode for DOS and legacy Windows applications. I >suspect that the poster really wants to run OS/2 on Virtual PC, SoftPC, or >SoftWindows. I do not think that any of the emulators will do that. He wanted me to add the caveat that he is not 100% sure of his answer. I hope this is helpful! -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From madodel at ptdprolog.net Wed Jul 22 21:13:20 2009 From: madodel at ptdprolog.net (madodel) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 22:13:20 -0400 Subject: Wanted: OS/2 version of Virtual PC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A67C740.2000701@ptdprolog.net> Mark Tapley wrote: > At Sat, 18 Jul 2009 15:59:06 -0400, Jim Scheef wrote: >> From: Jim Scheef >> Subject: Wanted: OS/2 version of Virtual PC >> >> Several years ago there was a company called Connectix that made what is >> now Microsoft Virtual PC. I would very much like to obtain a copy of the >> version that ran on OS/2. This is needed for my networking project so I >> can play with OS/2 LAN Manager running in emulation. >> >> An ISO of the CD would be fine but I would be willing to pay modestly >> for a complete package with any manuals, etc. >> >> Please reply off list. >> >> Thanks, >> Jim > > A friend of mine worked for Connectix, and I contacted him about this. > His response was: > > At 0:53 -0700 7/21/09, John Chang wrote: >> Sorry, Mark. I do not know where to get a copy. Connectix Virtual PC >> ran on >> the Mac only, and it emulated MS DOS and Windows. I do not think that >> Insignia >> Solutions SoftPC and SoftWindows ran on OS/2. OS/2 like Windows NT is >> supposed >> to run its own emulation mode for DOS and legacy Windows applications. I >> suspect that the poster really wants to run OS/2 on Virtual PC, >> SoftPC, or >> SoftWindows. I do not think that any of the emulators will do that. > > He wanted me to add the caveat that he is not 100% sure of his answer. > > I hope this is helpful! There was an OS/2 port of VirtualPC 5.1 by InnoTek Systemberatung GmbH in 2001-2002. Innotek was a tiny German company that used the OS/2 win32 subsystem project known as Odin to port several windows applications including Acrobat reader and Flash 5 to OS/2. After Connectix sold all its intellectual property to microsoft a few years ago, both the Mac and OS/2 versions of VirtualPC were deadended. Innotek went on to create the VirtualBox project which was bought out by Sun Microsystems a couple years ago. Since VirtualBox has an open source version, there is also an OS/2 port of it available http://www.smedley.info/os2ports/index.php?page=virtualbox It is not up to the most current version on the officially supported platforms like BSD, Mac, Linux, Solaris and windows because the OS/2 port of QT4 is still being worked on, but it does work. As to VirtualPC/2 5.1 I have that as well as another VM product for OS//2 (actually eComStation, the OEM follow on to OS/2) called SVISTA which was created by the company that went on to become Parallels. Unfortunately they abandoned the SVISTA product when they changed the name to Parallels and SVISTA never worked as well as VirtualPC/2 or was as feature complete. Anyway with any of these you can run OS/2 (I don't think the 1.x versions ran though) or pretty much any other OS under OS/2 or eComStation. I had emailed Jim privately several days ago but I guess he never got it. Mark From ragooman at comcast.net Wed Jul 22 21:18:22 2009 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 22:18:22 -0400 Subject: 40 yrs of Lunar Lander - the other anniversary Message-ID: <4A67C86E.20202@comcast.net> 40 yrs of Lunar Lander - the other anniversary http://technologizer.com/2009/07/19/lunar-lander/ ?Lexington High School had a PDP-8,? Storer recalls. ?It had 8 Teletypes, a small hard drive, and 12KB of main memory, where 8KB was used by the system and 4KB time shared by the users.? Storer wrote his new program, ?Lunar Landing Game,? in FOCAL, a programming language for the PDP-8 that was similar in some ways to BASIC (both were introductory languages known for their ease of use). His simulation was simple, yet powerful: underneath lay a realistic set of equations Storer believes his father may have taught him. =Dan -- [ = http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 22 21:35:31 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 19:35:31 -0700 Subject: 40 yrs of Lunar Lander - the other anniversary In-Reply-To: <4A67C86E.20202@comcast.net> References: <4A67C86E.20202@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4A676A03.12990.172C7327@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Jul 2009 at 22:18, Dan Roganti wrote: > 40 yrs of Lunar Lander - the other anniversary > http://technologizer.com/2009/07/19/lunar-lander/ > > "Lexington High School had a PDP-8," Storer recalls. "It had 8 > Teletypes, a small hard drive, and 12KB of main memory, where 8KB was > used by the system and 4KB time shared by the users." Storer wrote his > new program, "Lunar Landing Game," in FOCAL, a programming language > for the PDP-8 that was similar in some ways to BASIC (both were > introductory languages known for their ease of use). His simulation > was simple, yet powerful: underneath lay a realistic set of equations > Storer believes his father may have taught him. I've played the LEM game on a CDC 6600 operator's console way back when. Was that the first graphical version of the game? How many other games used graphics in 1970? --Chuck From ragooman at comcast.net Wed Jul 22 21:55:47 2009 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 22:55:47 -0400 Subject: 40 yrs of Lunar Lander - the other anniversary In-Reply-To: <4A676A03.12990.172C7327@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4A67C86E.20202@comcast.net> <4A676A03.12990.172C7327@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A67D133.4050900@comcast.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 22 Jul 2009 at 22:18, Dan Roganti wrote: > > >> 40 yrs of Lunar Lander - the other anniversary >> http://technologizer.com/2009/07/19/lunar-lander/ >> >> > > I've played the LEM game on a CDC 6600 operator's console way back > when. Was that the first graphical version of the game? How many > other games used graphics in 1970? > It might very well be, that version came out before the one written for the DEC GT40 graphics terminal(about '73) =Dan [ = http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jul 22 22:01:23 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 22:01:23 -0500 Subject: Goodbye Compuserve In-Reply-To: <4A6226FC.6080506@netscape.net> References: <4A50BC2F.9050100@arachelian.com> <4A5222F9.90507@verizon.net> <4A6226FC.6080506@netscape.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090722215308.042f2bf0@mail.threedee.com> At 02:48 PM 7/18/2009, Jim Scheef wrote: >Gee I'm sorry I missed this thread when it was alive... I'm sure someone's whined about this before, but it's unfortunate that Compuserve didn't archive its message bases and file libraries. I think we're long past the time when the trove of archive tapes would've been found and restored. Maybe it didn't makes sense from a backup/storage/archive/cost perspective. In all my years of Compuserve-ing, I did save my entire session as a file capture. I did edit them afterwards, cutting out the junk forum messages that didn't interest me at the time. Then I'd compress them and store them on floppies. Perhaps other digital packrats did the same and some old messages could be recovered from stores like mine. - John From dbetz at xlisper.com Thu Jul 23 07:00:19 2009 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 08:00:19 -0400 Subject: C64 sound problems In-Reply-To: <646249BC-738B-412D-A307-B223A0030120@xlisper.com> References: <84A28F62-9392-4AC4-B143-9CB0D9DDD813@xlisper.com> <646249BC-738B-412D-A307-B223A0030120@xlisper.com> Message-ID: On Jul 10, 2009, at 2:43 PM, David Betz wrote: >> are you using the correct cable plugged into the correct place? >> this is usually the biggest cause. >> sound was mono, and you need the proper wiring, and your tv/etc may >> only accept >> mono sound on a specific input > > One thing I've been wondering about is if this could be caused by > problems with the 12v supply feeding the SID. Is there anything else > in the C64 that uses that voltage or is it just for the SID? I finally got around to checking the 12v supply in my C64 and it seems to be working. I also verified that 12v is getting to the VDD pin on the SID chip so lack of 12v is not my problem. One thing I noticed that I thought rather strange was that the VCC pin on the SID reads 5.27v but the output of the 5v regulator is correct. Is there a reason why the VCC at the SID would be higher? Could this be causing a problem? From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jul 23 07:41:44 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 13:41:44 +0100 Subject: Wanted: OS/2 version of Virtual PC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <575131af0907230541n6dd79d99s484fc200028ac60b@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/23 Mark Tapley : > A friend of mine worked for Connectix, and I contacted him about this. His > response was: > > At 0:53 -0700 7/21/09, John Chang wrote: >> >> Sorry, Mark. ?I do not know where to get a copy. ?Connectix Virtual PC ran >> on >> the Mac only, and it emulated MS DOS and Windows. ?I do not think that >> Insignia >> Solutions SoftPC and SoftWindows ran on OS/2. ?OS/2 like Windows NT is >> supposed >> to run its own emulation mode for DOS and legacy Windows applications. ?I >> suspect that the poster really wants to run OS/2 on Virtual PC, SoftPC, or >> SoftWindows. ?I do not think that any of the emulators will do that. > > He wanted me to add the caveat that he is not 100% sure of his answer. > > I hope this is helpful! I'm afraid that's almost completely incorrect. It's true up to the late 1990s some time, but the result is an entirely misleading and inaccurate answer. The Mac VirtualPC product (released around 1997 or so) was ported to Windows and released in about 2001. It went through a couple of versions and was very well-received, partly as it was significantly cheaper than VMware Workstation and partly because it was simpler to set-up and use. Here's a review of it I wrote back in 2002: http://www.pcpro.co.uk/reviews/33972/connectix-virtual-pc-for-windows-5.html Because I was possibly the only journalist to ask Connectix about things like running Ring 0 code inside an emulator, which their press people were totally unequipped to answer, they flew Connectix founder and chief scientist Jon Garber over to London to talk with me and explain exactly how the product worked. VirtualPC was followed by VirtualServer, a server virtualisation product based on the same code, but with added support for features like direct control of a host SCSI adaptor by the OS in a VM. This aroused the interest of Microsoft, which was jealous of VMware's success, and Microsoft bought Connectix in about 2003. It discarded all the products except VirtualPC, which was maintained and sold for the Mac, VirtualPC for Windows, which is given away for free, and VirtualServer, which became the basis for the HyperV hypervisor in Windows Server 2008. However, HyperV requires Intel or AMD virtualisation instructions and no longer uses Connectix' software virtualisation. In 2002 or so Innotek GmbH ported VirtualPC 5 from Windows to OS/2: http://www.bityard.com/science-technology/Innotek/Connectix-Virtual-PC This is what the OP is looking for. There seems to be an eval version here: http://www.os2site.com/sw/apps/virtual/index.html Whether it's possible to use that & keep it running, I don't know. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jul 23 07:54:23 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 05:54:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wanted: OS/2 version of Virtual PC In-Reply-To: <575131af0907230541n6dd79d99s484fc200028ac60b@mail.gmail.com> from Liam Proven at "Jul 23, 9 01:41:44 pm" Message-ID: <200907231254.n6NCsNFV016394@floodgap.com> > VirtualPC was followed by VirtualServer, a server virtualisation > product based on the same code, but with added support for features > like direct control of a host SCSI adaptor by the OS in a VM. Neat. Did this ever see the light of day? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I'm still right. ------- From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jul 23 08:00:39 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 14:00:39 +0100 Subject: Wanted: OS/2 version of Virtual PC In-Reply-To: <200907231254.n6NCsNFV016394@floodgap.com> References: <575131af0907230541n6dd79d99s484fc200028ac60b@mail.gmail.com> <200907231254.n6NCsNFV016394@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <575131af0907230600w5cf94f93id9b784b71cc0a16a@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/23 Cameron Kaiser : >> VirtualPC was followed by VirtualServer, a server virtualisation >> product based on the same code, but with added support for features >> like direct control of a host SCSI adaptor by the OS in a VM. > > Neat. Did this ever see the light of day? Well, it was never released as a Connectix product - but Microsoft did indeed release it, as a freebie even. http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserversystem/virtualserver/default.aspx -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jul 23 08:03:40 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 06:03:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wanted: OS/2 version of Virtual PC In-Reply-To: <575131af0907230600w5cf94f93id9b784b71cc0a16a@mail.gmail.com> from Liam Proven at "Jul 23, 9 02:00:39 pm" Message-ID: <200907231303.n6ND3emp014292@floodgap.com> > > > VirtualPC was followed by VirtualServer, a server virtualisation > > > product based on the same code, but with added support for features > > > like direct control of a host SCSI adaptor by the OS in a VM. > > > > Neat. Did this ever see the light of day? > > Well, it was never released as a Connectix product - but Microsoft did > indeed release it, as a freebie even. > > http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserversystem/virtualserver/default.aspx Oh, bleh. I was hoping there was a Mac version :) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- This product moves when used. -- Actual label, children's scooter ---------- From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jul 23 08:11:38 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 14:11:38 +0100 Subject: Wanted: OS/2 version of Virtual PC In-Reply-To: <200907231303.n6ND3emp014292@floodgap.com> References: <575131af0907230600w5cf94f93id9b784b71cc0a16a@mail.gmail.com> <200907231303.n6ND3emp014292@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <575131af0907230611m332ee512o81881bf80179a838@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/23 Cameron Kaiser : >> > > VirtualPC was followed by VirtualServer, a server virtualisation >> > > product based on the same code, but with added support for features >> > > like direct control of a host SCSI adaptor by the OS in a VM. >> > >> > Neat. Did this ever see the light of day? >> >> Well, it was never released as a Connectix product - but Microsoft did >> indeed release it, as a freebie even. >> >> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserversystem/virtualserver/default.aspx > > Oh, bleh. I was hoping there was a Mac version :) >From MS?! Not a chance! I believe it's not only possible to get Mac OS X running under a hypervisor, but even that it's easier than doing so on "bare metal". I've not tried myself, though. But either the PC OS of your choice in a VM under OS X Server, or OS X Server in a VM under the PC OS of your choice, is as close as you'll get. Innotek's VirtualBox seems to be the free hypervisor of choice these days, but the small-f free options, TTBOMK, summarise as: - VirtualBox from Sun ("full" freeware edition or limited FOSS edition) under Linux, Windows or Mac OS X - QEMU (FOSS) with KQEMU module on x86 under Windows, Linux or Mac OS X - KVM (FOSS) on Linux on an x86 with hardware virtualisation - VirtualPC on Windows/x86, or VirtualServer on Windows Server/x86, from MS - VMware Player (can't create or edit VMs) or VMware Server (on Windows or Linux) from VMware -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Jul 23 08:37:10 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 09:37:10 -0400 Subject: Wanted: OS/2 version of Virtual PC In-Reply-To: <575131af0907230611m332ee512o81881bf80179a838@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0907230600w5cf94f93id9b784b71cc0a16a@mail.gmail.com> <200907231303.n6ND3emp014292@floodgap.com> <575131af0907230611m332ee512o81881bf80179a838@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200907230937.10758.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 23 July 2009, Liam Proven wrote: > 2009/7/23 Cameron Kaiser : > >> > > VirtualPC was followed by VirtualServer, a server > >> > > virtualisation product based on the same code, but with added > >> > > support for features like direct control of a host SCSI > >> > > adaptor by the OS in a VM. > >> > > >> > Neat. Did this ever see the light of day? > >> > >> Well, it was never released as a Connectix product - but Microsoft > >> did indeed release it, as a freebie even. > >> > >> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserversystem/virtualserver/default > >>.aspx > > > > Oh, bleh. I was hoping there was a Mac version :) > > > >From MS?! Not a chance! > > I believe it's not only possible to get Mac OS X running under a > hypervisor, but even that it's easier than doing so on "bare metal". > I've not tried myself, though. But either the PC OS of your choice in > a VM under OS X Server, or OS X Server in a VM under the PC OS of > your choice, is as close as you'll get. > > Innotek's VirtualBox seems to be the free hypervisor of choice these > days, but the small-f free options, TTBOMK, summarise as: > > - VirtualBox from Sun ("full" freeware edition or limited FOSS > edition) under Linux, Windows or Mac OS X > - QEMU (FOSS) with KQEMU module on x86 under Windows, Linux or Mac > OS X - KVM (FOSS) on Linux on an x86 with hardware virtualisation - > VirtualPC on Windows/x86, or VirtualServer on Windows Server/x86, > from MS - VMware Player (can't create or edit VMs) or VMware Server > (on Windows or Linux) from VMware Citrix (previously Xensource) Xen/XenServer (and VMware ESX) use a real hypervisor. The ones you listed don't. Just because they provide a "virtual machine" doesn't mean that they use a hypervisor to do it. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jul 23 08:53:10 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 14:53:10 +0100 Subject: Wanted: OS/2 version of Virtual PC In-Reply-To: <200907230937.10758.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <575131af0907230600w5cf94f93id9b784b71cc0a16a@mail.gmail.com> <200907231303.n6ND3emp014292@floodgap.com> <575131af0907230611m332ee512o81881bf80179a838@mail.gmail.com> <200907230937.10758.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <575131af0907230653o49d2b4b1r7a1eb9acada4c20c@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/23 Patrick Finnegan : > On Thursday 23 July 2009, Liam Proven wrote: >> 2009/7/23 Cameron Kaiser : >> >> > > VirtualPC was followed by VirtualServer, a server >> >> > > virtualisation product based on the same code, but with added >> >> > > support for features like direct control of a host SCSI >> >> > > adaptor by the OS in a VM. >> >> > >> >> > Neat. Did this ever see the light of day? >> >> >> >> Well, it was never released as a Connectix product - but Microsoft >> >> did indeed release it, as a freebie even. >> >> >> >> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserversystem/virtualserver/default >> >>.aspx >> > >> > Oh, bleh. I was hoping there was a Mac version :) >> > >> >From MS?! Not a chance! >> >> I believe it's not only possible to get Mac OS X running under a >> hypervisor, but even that it's easier than doing so on "bare metal". >> I've not tried myself, though. But either the PC OS of your choice in >> a VM under OS X Server, or OS X Server in a VM under the PC OS of >> your choice, is as close as you'll get. >> >> Innotek's VirtualBox seems to be the free hypervisor of choice these >> days, but the small-f free options, TTBOMK, summarise as: >> >> ?- VirtualBox from Sun ("full" freeware edition or limited FOSS >> edition) under Linux, Windows or Mac OS X >> ?- QEMU (FOSS) with KQEMU module on x86 under Windows, Linux or Mac >> OS X - KVM (FOSS) on Linux on an x86 with hardware virtualisation - >> VirtualPC on Windows/x86, or VirtualServer on Windows Server/x86, >> from MS - VMware Player (can't create or edit VMs) or VMware Server >> (on Windows or Linux) from VMware > > Citrix (previously Xensource) Xen/XenServer (and VMware ESX) use a real > hypervisor. ?The ones you listed don't. ?Just because they provide > a "virtual machine" doesn't mean that they use a hypervisor to do it. The term has been redefined these days. Whereas that was originally an accurate comment, now, anything that provides VMs in which unmodified bare-metal OSs can run is called a hypervisor. There's a distinction between "bare metal" hyervisors and ones that run as an application under another OS, but it's largely an artificial one: even so-called "bare metal" HVs actually run under a host OS, such as Linux in the case of VMware ESX & ESXi - although the company vigorously contests this - and also Xen or KVM. Alas, the "pure hypervisor" which does nothing else is now largely a footnote of history. TTBOMK there is no such thing for the x86. There may be for some of the RISC architectures, which include proper support for virtualisation, which is a half-hearted bolted-on extra to the modern x86-64 chips. AMD's is a bit less of a me-too effort than Intel's, but I believe that neither is as complete as the implementations in POWER or SPARC, let alone IBM big iron. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From gkraft at mac.com Thu Jul 23 10:19:34 2009 From: gkraft at mac.com (Gordon Kraft) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:19:34 -0400 Subject: Basic Four Computers Message-ID: Dear Bill Miller Phd, Hi, my name is Gordon Kraft, I am also a old timer from the computer industry, during my days at Microform Data Systems, I was Mgr. Software Development. We used the Microdata 1600 as a "Index Controller" for Microforms Document Storage Retrieval products. I am doing some research on the 70's and saw you posts about Basic Four. I am looking for a list of Apps that were available on the Basic Four platform back in the day... and any literature you may still have about the productline... Or any info links for me to review... Thank you, Gordon Kraft http://www.linkedin.com/in/gkraft From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jul 23 11:12:35 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 17:12:35 +0100 Subject: Basic Four Computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <575131af0907230912u7a3bb1bej419d8a18bc219f9@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/23 Gordon Kraft : > Dear Bill Miller Phd, > > Hi, my name is Gordon Kraft, I am also a old timer from the computer > industry ... an "old-timer" who manifestly still hasn't quite got the hang of this business of addressing emails... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jul 23 11:57:35 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 09:57:35 -0700 Subject: C64 sound problems References: <84A28F62-9392-4AC4-B143-9CB0D9DDD813@xlisper.com> <646249BC-738B-412D-A307-B223A0030120@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <4A68967F.C9C4E6AA@cs.ubc.ca> David Betz wrote: > I finally got around to checking the 12v supply in my C64 and it seems > to be working. I also verified that 12v is getting to the VDD pin on > the SID chip so lack of 12v is not my problem. One thing I noticed > that I thought rather strange was that the VCC pin on the SID reads > 5.27v but the output of the 5v regulator is correct. Is there a reason > why the VCC at the SID would be higher? Could this be causing a problem? It would seem weird, wouldn't it - however, there are three 5V sources in the C64. When you say 5V regulator do you mean the 7805 (VR2)? - that is not the supply for the SID (pin 25), so one can expect a discrepancy. (I know very little about C64's, just happen to have the SAM's photofact schematic here.) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jul 23 12:15:43 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 10:15:43 -0700 Subject: C64 sound problems References: <84A28F62-9392-4AC4-B143-9CB0D9DDD813@xlisper.com> <646249BC-738B-412D-A307-B223A0030120@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <4A689ABF.B26E53D0@cs.ubc.ca> David Betz wrote: > I finally got around to checking the 12v supply in my C64 and it seems > to be working. I also verified that 12v is getting to the VDD pin on > the SID chip so lack of 12v is not my problem. One thing I noticed > that I thought rather strange was that the VCC pin on the SID reads > 5.27v but the output of the 5v regulator is correct. Is there a reason > why the VCC at the SID would be higher? Could this be causing a problem? Further, pin 27 is the audio output from the SID, it feeds a transistor (Q8) in emitter follower cfg. The emitter of Q8 feeds the RF modulator and pin 3 of the audio/video connector. Might check or 'scope around those. From dbetz at xlisper.com Thu Jul 23 16:52:49 2009 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 17:52:49 -0400 Subject: C64 sound problems In-Reply-To: <4A689ABF.B26E53D0@cs.ubc.ca> References: <84A28F62-9392-4AC4-B143-9CB0D9DDD813@xlisper.com> <646249BC-738B-412D-A307-B223A0030120@xlisper.com> <4A689ABF.B26E53D0@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > Further, pin 27 is the audio output from the SID, it feeds a > transistor (Q8) in > emitter follower cfg. > The emitter of Q8 feeds the RF modulator and pin 3 of the audio/video > connector. Might check or 'scope around those. Thanks for the suggestions! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jul 23 20:27:42 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 21:27:42 -0400 Subject: VT420s, 80 meg packs Message-ID: Is there any serious interest here for DEC VT420s? I have a large pile of them now, and am wondering if they are worth refurbing, or if I should just scrap them out. Also, I have access to a large number of 80 meg disk packs for the CDC SMD drives. I do not really need them (I am more a 300 meg guy), but is there interest in these? -- Will From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 23 20:33:59 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 21:33:59 -0400 Subject: VT420s, 80 meg packs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 9:27 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Is there any serious interest here for DEC VT420s? I have a large pile > of them now, and am wondering if they are worth refurbing, or if I > should just scrap them out. Let me know what you find - I still have access to a small pile of (dirty but working) VT220s that failed to garner any interest when I mentioned them a few weeks ago. > Also, I have access to a large number of 80 meg disk packs for the CDC > SMD drives. I do not really need them (I am more a 300 meg guy), but > is there interest in these? If by 80MB CDC you mean 9762s, those packs should be compatible with DEC RM02s and RM03s. (from http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/usenet/disks) RM02 65M 32 5 823 pack; CDC 9762; 2400 rpm [phys 80M?] RM03 65M 32 5 823 pack; CDC 9762 [phys 80M?] -ethan From sethm at loomcom.com Thu Jul 23 20:43:01 2009 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 18:43:01 -0700 Subject: VT420s, 80 meg packs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 6:33 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 9:27 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Is there any serious interest here for DEC VT420s? I have a large pile >> of them now, and am wondering if they are worth refurbing, or if I >> should just scrap them out. > > Let me know what you find - I still have access to a small pile of > (dirty but working) VT220s that failed to garner any interest when I > mentioned them a few weeks ago. Where are you both located? I could surely use another VT420 or VT220 (or two). -Seth -- Seth Morabito Union City, CA, USA sethm at loomcom.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jul 23 20:49:33 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 19:49:33 -0600 Subject: VT420s, 80 meg packs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A69132D.6080706@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 9:27 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Is there any serious interest here for DEC VT420s? I have a large pile >> of them now, and am wondering if they are worth refurbing, or if I >> should just scrap them out. > > Let me know what you find - I still have access to a small pile of > (dirty but working) VT220s that failed to garner any interest when I > mentioned them a few weeks ago. > I tend to ignore such offers, for the simple reason few people want to ship them in the USA let alone out of the country. Right now I am happy with Spare Time Gimozo's dumb terminal that is working nicely with the SBC6120 pdp/8. Ben. PS. Still have to pickup a used VGA & keyboard for it. From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 23 21:10:03 2009 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 19:10:03 -0700 Subject: VT420s, 80 meg packs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A6917FB.3080304@sbcglobal.net> William Donzelli wrote: > Is there any serious interest here for DEC VT420s? I have a large pile > of them now, and am wondering if they are worth refurbing, or if I > should just scrap them out. > > Also, I have access to a large number of 80 meg disk packs for the CDC > SMD drives. I do not really need them (I am more a 300 meg guy), but > is there interest in these? > > -- > Will > > Yes, I would be interested in 80 meg packs for my CDC 9762 drives. I'm pretty sure they can be used in other drives as well. Bob From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jul 23 21:23:50 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 19:23:50 -0700 Subject: VT420s, 80 meg packs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 9:33 PM -0400 7/23/09, Ethan Dicks wrote: >On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 9:27 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Is there any serious interest here for DEC VT420s? I have a large pile >> of them now, and am wondering if they are worth refurbing, or if I >> should just scrap them out. > >Let me know what you find - I still have access to a small pile of >(dirty but working) VT220s that failed to garner any interest when I >mentioned them a few weeks ago. Personally I'm not interested in VT220's. I would be in VT420's *IF* they were local to me. I've quite a few DEC terminals, and of the ones I have the VT420's are my favorite. What I really want is a VT525 (the one that looks like a DEC Multia, and plugs into a VGA monitor), or the VT340+ (I think that's right). Not that I'm in the position to get any at the moment. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 23 21:25:03 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 22:25:03 -0400 Subject: VT420s, 80 meg packs In-Reply-To: <4A69132D.6080706@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4A69132D.6080706@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 9:49 PM, Ben wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> Let me know what you find - I still have access to a small pile of >> (dirty but working) VT220s that failed to garner any interest when I >> mentioned them a few weeks ago. >> > I tend to ignore such offers, for the simple reason > few people want to ship them in the USA let alone out of the > country. That is certainly a concern. At least a VT220 without keyboard (which is what these are) is easy enough to box up. The VT220s are in Columbus, OH, at the home of FreeGeek Columbus (a block away from Ohio State). They are in the pile of stuff to be sold on eBay, but if someone wanted to show up, I'm sure something could be worked out for a direct donation (they do that sort of thing all the time for accessory items). > Right now I am happy with Spare Time Gimozo's dumb > terminal that is working nicely with the SBC6120 pdp/8. Sure. It's a great little project - I have a couple, but haven't been able to find the time with the new job to finish assembling one (but I'm close). > PS. Still have to pickup a used VGA & keyboard for it. I have a couple of 12" LCDs that were in a $10 hamfest box two years ago and a couple of 15" LCDs that were $15-$20 at the local thrift store. I plan to velcro the board on the back of one of them. -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jul 23 22:22:18 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 21:22:18 -0600 Subject: VT420s, 80 meg packs In-Reply-To: References: <4A69132D.6080706@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4A6928EA.9090508@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Right now I am happy with Spare Time Gimozo's dumb >> terminal that is working nicely with the SBC6120 pdp/8. > > Sure. It's a great little project - I have a couple, but haven't been > able to find the time with the new job to finish assembling one (but > I'm close). Bug the software people for the latest firmware. You need it. >> PS. Still have to pickup a used VGA & keyboard for it. > > I have a couple of 12" LCDs that were in a $10 hamfest box two years > ago and a couple of 15" LCDs that were $15-$20 at the local thrift > store. I plan to velcro the board on the back of one of them. Good plan! > -ethan Ben. From dgahling at hotmail.com Thu Jul 23 22:26:36 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 23:26:36 -0400 Subject: VT420s, 80 meg packs In-Reply-To: References: <4A69132D.6080706@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: I'd be interested in some vt420's and some vt220's and any other vt terminals, esp Volkers, but those are damn hard to find. I could even drive and pick them up, OH isn't far from me in ON, if, someone wants to split gas costs.... > Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 22:25:03 -0400 > Subject: Re: VT420s, 80 meg packs > From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 9:49 PM, Ben wrote: > > Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> > >> Let me know what you find - I still have access to a small pile of > >> (dirty but working) VT220s that failed to garner any interest when I > >> mentioned them a few weeks ago. > >> > > I tend to ignore such offers, for the simple reason > > few people want to ship them in the USA let alone out of the > > country. > > That is certainly a concern. At least a VT220 without keyboard (which > is what these are) is easy enough to box up. > > The VT220s are in Columbus, OH, at the home of FreeGeek Columbus (a > block away from Ohio State). They are in the pile of stuff to be sold > on eBay, but if someone wanted to show up, I'm sure something could be > worked out for a direct donation (they do that sort of thing all the > time for accessory items). > > > Right now I am happy with Spare Time Gimozo's dumb > > terminal that is working nicely with the SBC6120 pdp/8. > > Sure. It's a great little project - I have a couple, but haven't been > able to find the time with the new job to finish assembling one (but > I'm close). > > > PS. Still have to pickup a used VGA & keyboard for it. > > I have a couple of 12" LCDs that were in a $10 hamfest box two years > ago and a couple of 15" LCDs that were $15-$20 at the local thrift > store. I plan to velcro the board on the back of one of them. > > -ethan _________________________________________________________________ Stay on top of things, check email from other accounts! http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9671355 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jul 23 22:33:42 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 23:33:42 -0400 Subject: VT420s, 80 meg packs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Where are you both located? ?I could surely use another VT420 or VT220 (or two). 10512. -- Will From rescue at hawkmountain.net Thu Jul 23 23:20:53 2009 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 00:20:53 -0400 Subject: wanted: FP6120 Message-ID: <4A6936A5.9040501@hawkmountain.net> I've tried posting this several times to the Spare Time Gizmos yahoo group... and for some reason it doesn't seem to be happening... I just tried again and I'll see if it works this time... but in the meantime, thought I'd try here too.... I missed out on the last run of FP6120 kits.... I stopped following the group for a while... just long enough for them to become available and then sell out :-(. If anyone bought an extra or two and would be willing to part with one, please contact me. Thanks, -- Curt From jws at jwsss.com Thu Jul 23 12:05:38 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 10:05:38 -0700 Subject: Basic Four Computers In-Reply-To: <575131af0907230912u7a3bb1bej419d8a18bc219f9@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0907230912u7a3bb1bej419d8a18bc219f9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A689862.4060003@jwsss.com> Actually it is good he did not address it correctly, since I have Microdata, Microform Data, and Basic4 system and might have some info for him. Jim Liam Proven wrote: > 2009/7/23 Gordon Kraft : > >> Dear Bill Miller Phd, >> >> Hi, my name is Gordon Kraft, I am also a old timer from the computer >> industry >> > > ... an "old-timer" who manifestly still hasn't quite got the hang of > this business of addressing emails... > > From leaknoil at comcast.net Thu Jul 23 15:35:38 2009 From: leaknoil at comcast.net (leaknoil at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 13:35:38 -0700 Subject: Xerox 860 IPS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A68C99A.3070404@comcast.net> I just picked up an old and neglected Xerox 860 IPS system. It came with a mess of spare boards, most marked bad, and a box of original Xerox disks. Problem is I can't get it to boot any of them. Is there someone on this list that could send me a known good one so, I have a place to start from ? I don't really care what it boots as long as it boots to something on yours. I've done all the customary re-seating of everything and swapping boards around but, the boot result is the same. Even with all the boards swapped out with spares. Everything is pretty clean inside. No leaking caps or frayed wires. Connectors all look good. I've read a couple entries on various pages claiming this was not really a computer but, a word processor that ran a custom OS. Mine came with original Xerox labeled CP/M disks along with COBOL, Visicalc, dBase, and Wordstar so, someone had to be using them for more then word processing. It also came with a Xerox Word Processing system disk that attempts to boot as well. It loads for awhile then just stops and does nothing further. The CP/M one boots for a bit then prints C to the screen like perhaps it is printing out the CP/M banner and dying after the letter C. the front display just read 0000 which I think means no errors. I have no idea if the keyboard works. Appreciate any thoughts. Thanks. From leaknoil at comcast.net Thu Jul 23 17:25:26 2009 From: leaknoil at comcast.net (leaknoil) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 15:25:26 -0700 Subject: Xerox 860 IPS Message-ID: <4A68E356.1050206@comcast.net> I apologize in advance if you received this twice. I got an error message the first attempt and I am reposting it. I just picked up an old and neglected Xerox 860 IPS system. It came with a mess of spare boards, most marked bad, and a box of original Xerox disks. Problem is I can't get it to boot any of them. Is there someone on this list that could send me a known good one so, I have a place to start from ? I don't really care what it boots as long as it boots to something on yours. I've done all the customary re-seating of everything and swapping boards around but, the boot result is the same. Even with all the boards swapped out with spares. Everything is pretty clean inside. No leaking caps or frayed wires. Connectors all look good. I've read a couple entries on various pages claiming this was not really a computer but, a word processor that ran a custom OS. Mine came with original Xerox labeled CP/M disks along with COBOL, Visicalc, dBase, and Wordstar so, someone had to be using this as a more general purpose cp/m box. It also came with a Xerox Word Processing system disk that attempts to boot as well. It loads for awhile then just stops and does nothing further. The CP/M one boots for a bit then prints C to the screen like perhaps it is printing out the CP/M banner and dying after the letter C. the front display just read 0000 which I think means no errors. I have no idea if the keyboard works. Appreciate any thoughts. Thanks. From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Jul 23 23:56:38 2009 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 23:56:38 -0500 Subject: wanted: FP6120 In-Reply-To: <4A6936A5.9040501@hawkmountain.net> References: <4A6936A5.9040501@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <4A693F06.40603@ubanproductions.com> I have the complete setup all built. Are you only looking for kit form? --tom Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > > I've tried posting this several times to the Spare Time Gizmos yahoo > group... and for some > reason it doesn't seem to be happening... I just tried again and I'll > see if it works this time... > but in the meantime, thought I'd try here too.... > > I missed out on the last run of FP6120 kits.... I stopped following the > group for a while... just long enough for them to become available and > then sell out :-(. > > If anyone bought an extra or two and would be willing to part with one, > please contact me. > > Thanks, > > -- Curt > > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 24 00:22:56 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 22:22:56 -0700 Subject: VT420s, 80 meg packs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A694530.1020209@bitsavers.org> William Donzelli wrote: > Also, I have access to a large number of 80 meg disk packs for the CDC > SMD drives. I would think Mike Ross would want 'em. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 24 00:24:24 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 22:24:24 -0700 Subject: VT420s, 80 meg packs In-Reply-To: <4A6917FB.3080304@sbcglobal.net> References: <4A6917FB.3080304@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <4A694588.60408@bitsavers.org> Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > Yes, I would be interested in 80 meg packs for my CDC 9762 drives. I'm > pretty sure they can be used in other drives as well. > Only 9762 variants, like the RM02 and RM03. 9762 and 9766 packs are unique to CDC drives. From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 24 00:54:20 2009 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 22:54:20 -0700 Subject: VT420s, 80 meg packs In-Reply-To: <4A694588.60408@bitsavers.org> References: <4A6917FB.3080304@sbcglobal.net> <4A694588.60408@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4A694C8C.1080804@sbcglobal.net> Al Kossow wrote: > Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > >> Yes, I would be interested in 80 meg packs for my CDC 9762 drives. >> I'm pretty sure they can be used in other drives as well. >> > > Only 9762 variants, like the RM02 and RM03. > > 9762 and 9766 packs are unique to CDC drives. Yes that's what I meant. I have two Plessey DD11 series drives that are CDC 9762's. With a total of four drives, two CDC and two Plessey, and no disk packs, I could sure use a few! Bob From cfox1 at cogeco.ca Fri Jul 24 04:14:39 2009 From: cfox1 at cogeco.ca (Charles E. Fox) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 05:14:39 -0400 Subject: Basic Four Computers In-Reply-To: <4A689862.4060003@jwsss.com> References: <575131af0907230912u7a3bb1bej419d8a18bc219f9@mail.gmail.com> <4A689862.4060003@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <7u4j9i$880al@fipsb03.cogeco.net> At 01:05 PM 7/23/2009, you wrote: >Actually it is good he did not address it correctly, since I have >Microdata, Microform Data, and Basic4 system and might have some info for him. > >Jim > > I have about half a dozen Basic 4 terminals I would be > happy to donate , if anyone would care to pick them up. Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Video Production 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor ON N8Y3J8 519-254-4991 www.chasfoxvideo.com From billdeg at degnanco.com Fri Jul 24 12:15:02 2009 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 13:15:02 -0400 Subject: Altair 680 Memory Expansion Kits? Message-ID: <79c693d$3cb468b7$65b55498$@com> Thought I'd ask...I am looking for a new 4K (or more) RAM expansion kit with schematics for an Altair 680b that I can build myself. Ideally the kit would build an expansion card and operate like an old RAM card. An old vintage RAM card would be fine too, but that'd be expensive and I assume there are none to be found at this point save the rare luck. I am not sure if you can still get them from stockly.com. Thanks Bill From dond at systechaz.com Fri Jul 24 13:29:48 2009 From: dond at systechaz.com (Don Duby) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 11:29:48 -0700 Subject: Data General equipment Message-ID: <000501ca0c8c$bb1c28a0$6401a8c0@owner96c225dff> Hello, At one point in time, 4 years ago, Jim was looking for a Data General Dasher 6052. I have a 6052 and other vintage computer stuff (DG and DEC). I no longer service this equipment and therefore would be happy to sell to a vintage computer junky. Who out there needs museum quality stuff? sincerely, Don From egajdusek at cox.net Fri Jul 24 13:49:52 2009 From: egajdusek at cox.net (Ernie Gajdusek-+) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 13:49:52 -0500 Subject: DG Nova 4's, Eclipse S130's Message-ID: <9628E7A322E2474BA3D10948824CE831@BLUEDEVIL> Dear Tim, Found an old notation on the internet about some Data General computers you bought. I wonder if you still have any available? Need an S130 or at least some parts. Ernie Gajdusek WME, Inc. Welding & Metallurgical Equipment, Inc. PO Box 4154 Fort Walton Beach, FL 32549-4154 850-244-1665 Fax: 850-689-2212 e-mail: egajdusek at wme-inc.com From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 24 14:06:54 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 19:06:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: wanted: FP6120 Message-ID: <244891.73642.qm@web23404.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Just to let you know, Yahoo is currently (still) having problems with its groups. Large groups (with more than 350 members) currently have problems with new members posting, among other problems. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Fri, 24/7/09, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: From: Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. Subject: wanted: FP6120 To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Friday, 24 July, 2009, 5:20 AM I've tried posting this several times to the Spare Time Gizmos yahoo group... and for some reason it doesn't seem to be happening... I just tried again and I'll see if it works this time... but in the meantime, thought I'd try here too.... I missed out on the last run of FP6120 kits.... I stopped following the group for a while... just long enough for them to become available and then sell out :-(. If anyone bought an extra or two and would be willing to part with one, please contact me. Thanks, -- Curt From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Jul 24 14:17:25 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 12:17:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for an AT&T 3b2 Message-ID: <774380.623.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> This is one of those machines I've been trying to track down for a very long time, so I figured it was worth posting a feeler... Does anyone have an AT&T 3b2, or know of one that might be available? Obviously, the bigger the better, but I'm not picky. I want to be able to run AT&T Unix. -Ian From slawmaster at gmail.com Fri Jul 24 14:22:47 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 12:22:47 -0700 Subject: Looking for an AT&T 3b2 In-Reply-To: <774380.623.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <774380.623.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7d3530220907241222t17c55d8fkd17153a5d0de7d09@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 12:17 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > This is one of those machines I've been trying to track down for a very long time, so I figured it was worth posting a feeler... Does anyone have an AT&T 3b2, or know of one that might be available? Obviously, the bigger the better, but I'm not picky. I want to be able to run AT&T Unix. > > -Ian > I've been hoping to find the same thing... anybody in the San Francisco bay area with one of these should drop me a line, if Ian doesn't want it or can't have it shipped to wherever he is. John -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Jul 24 14:30:37 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 12:30:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for an AT&T 3b2 Message-ID: <351900.43565.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 7/24/09, John Floren wrote: > Ian Primus > wrote: > > > > This is one of those machines I've been trying to > track down for a very long time, so I figured it was worth > posting a feeler... Does anyone have an AT&T 3b2, or > know of one that might be available? Obviously, the bigger > the better, but I'm not picky. I want to be able to run > AT&T Unix. > > > > -Ian > > > > I've been hoping to find the same thing... anybody in the > San > Francisco bay area with one of these should drop me a line, > if Ian > doesn't want it or can't have it shipped to wherever he > is. Heh. Yeah, I should have mentioned. I'm in New York, near Albany. So we're on completely different coasts... -Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jul 24 14:34:32 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 15:34:32 -0400 Subject: DG Nova 4's, Eclipse S130's In-Reply-To: <9628E7A322E2474BA3D10948824CE831@BLUEDEVIL> References: <9628E7A322E2474BA3D10948824CE831@BLUEDEVIL> Message-ID: On Jul 24, 2009, at 2:49 PM, Ernie Gajdusek-+ wrote: > Found an old notation on the internet about some Data General > computers you bought. I wonder if you still have any available? > Need an S130 or at least some parts. Oh come on. I can't be the ONLY person who sees that setting Reply-To: headers on a mailing list is a crappy idea. If the world were full of smart people, it would be ok...but it isn't. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From alexeyt at freeshell.org Fri Jul 24 15:30:03 2009 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 20:30:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Looking for an AT&T 3b2 In-Reply-To: <774380.623.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <774380.623.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Jul 2009, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > This is one of those machines I've been trying to track down for a very > long time, so I figured it was worth posting a feeler... Does anyone > have an AT&T 3b2, or know of one that might be available? Obviously, the > bigger the better, but I'm not picky. I want to be able to run AT&T > Unix. Can't help you with finding one of your own, but if you want to try AT&T unix on a 3b2 you can telnet to 3b2.freeshell.org: > Welcome to a former machine of the SDF Public Access UNIX System (Est. 1987) > This is a WE 3B2/500 running AT&T System V UNIX Release 3.2.1 with 8MB of RAM. > Decommissioned in 1996, it is now located at the Museum of Communications > in the Qwest Duwamish Central Office, Seattle, Washington USA Alexey From dbetz at xlisper.com Fri Jul 24 16:52:03 2009 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 17:52:03 -0400 Subject: Atari and Commodore stuff Message-ID: <6C6FA30D-F47B-4D8E-90FB-32DB65C9E5D3@xlisper.com> I have a bunch of Atari and Commodore stuff that needs to find a new home. I'd love it if someone would come and pick this up in Bedford, NH. If that doesn't work, I may be willing to ship some/all of it if the buyer pays the shipping. If possible, I'd like all of the Atari stuff to go in one batch and all of the Commodore stuff in one batch (or everything in one batch). I'm offering this stuff for free although if you have any old calculators or hand-held computers that you'd like to trade that would be even better! Thanks! David Atari stuff 2 Atari 1050 disk drives with power supplies and SIO cables 1 Atari 850 interface with power supply and SIO cable 6 SIO cables 1 Atari Logo cartridge and manuals 1 Atari Editor/Assembler cartridge and manual 1 pair of Atari paddle controllers 1 Atari controller extension cable / Y adapter 2 RF switch boxes 1 Atari PAG-1200 power supply, 9VDC 1A 2 Atari CO-14319 power supplies, 9VAC 15.3VA 1 Atari 1010 Owner's Guide 1 Atari Basketball cartridge CXL4004 1 Atari Music Composer cartridge CXL4007 1 Spinnaker Adventure Creator cartridge Commodore stuff 1 Commodore 1541 disk drive with power and data cables 2 Suncom Tac5 joysticks 1 Aprospand 4 slot extender 1 Cardkey numeric keypad with a missing keycap (the multiply key) 1 Cardco centronics parallel interface with cables From alanp at snowmoose.com Fri Jul 24 20:08:38 2009 From: alanp at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 18:08:38 -0700 Subject: Free SCSI stuff (plus shipping) Message-ID: <4A6A5B16.9030206@snowmoose.com> Located in the Seattle area. MicroNet SCSI drive enclosure (Centronics 50-pin) containing 500M Fujitsu HDD MicroNet SCSI drive enclsoure (Centronics 50-pin) containing 200M Sun/Maxtor HDD Generic SCSI drive enclosure (Centronics 50-pin) containing Texel 3024 CD-ROM drive Centronics 50-pin to Centronics 50-pin SCSI cable, 2m 2x Centronics 50-pin to Centronics 50-pin SCSI cable, 1m 2x Centronics 50-pin to half-pitch 50-pin SCSI cable, 1m alan From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Jul 25 16:04:23 2009 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 16:04:23 -0500 Subject: TMS4500A DRAM Controller Datasheet needed In-Reply-To: <4A6A5B16.9030206@snowmoose.com> References: <4A6A5B16.9030206@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <4A6B7357.4030708@brutman.com> I'm looking at a memory expansion board for a PCjr that uses this chip and I have found a pinout of it from the data sheet archives, but I'm having some confusion that a real data sheet or application note would clear up. (Specifically the sheet that I found says it supposed up to 64Kbit DRAMs, but this board is constructed with 256Kbit DRAMS.) Does anybody have an version of the full data sheet and application notes that they can send me a copy of? Thanks, Mike From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jul 25 17:58:18 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 15:58:18 -0700 Subject: TMS4500A DRAM Controller Datasheet needed In-Reply-To: <4A6B7357.4030708@brutman.com> References: <4A6A5B16.9030206@snowmoose.com> <4A6B7357.4030708@brutman.com> Message-ID: <4A6B8E0A.7080108@bitsavers.org> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Does anybody have an version of the full data sheet and application > notes that they can send me a copy of? > it is in the 1984 MOS memory data book under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ti/_dataBooks the pdf will be replaced once OCRing is finished on it. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Jul 25 18:33:27 2009 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 18:33:27 -0500 Subject: TMS4500A DRAM Controller Datasheet needed In-Reply-To: <4A6B8E0A.7080108@bitsavers.org> References: <4A6A5B16.9030206@snowmoose.com> <4A6B7357.4030708@brutman.com> <4A6B8E0A.7080108@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4A6B9647.1010203@brutman.com> Al Kossow wrote: > Michael B. Brutman wrote: > >> Does anybody have an version of the full data sheet and application >> notes that they can send me a copy of? >> > > it is in the 1984 MOS memory data book under > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ti/_dataBooks > > the pdf will be replaced once OCRing is finished on it. > > > Al - thanks so much! The standard data sheet places have almost nothing, and Bitsavers didn't come to mind when I was looking for something this component specific. Mike From rachael at dahl-pind.dk Sun Jul 26 07:38:19 2009 From: rachael at dahl-pind.dk (Jacob Dahl Pind) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 14:38:19 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Ibm 5160 xt Message-ID: I have recently pulled my 5160 xt out of storage, but the powersupple seems to have given up on me, have anyone tried to repair one of those before. If its powered up with load the fan spins up , but there is a relay that is tricked on a small vertial installed print, turning the whole thing off. The case of the powersupple is big enough that I could put a new powersuple inside it with a bit for rewiring if it turns out to not be repairable. Regards Jacob Dahl Pind From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Jul 26 10:43:56 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 11:43:56 -0400 Subject: New S-100 backplane and prototyping board PCBs Message-ID: <3C2F8DFBD7C74AFC9B59A8494443BBAC@andrewdesktop> Hi! ?I made this offer on vintage-computer.com and comp.os.cpm and thought there may be some home brew computer hobbyists on CCTALK that might also be interested. I'd like to offer more S-100 backplane and prototyping board PCBs using a new approach to get the cost down. ?My first batch of both S-100 PCBs are all sold out and the builders seem happy with them. ?My new idea is like a group buy to increase the order quantity and lower unit cost. ?I wrote up a description of the plan on vintage-computer.com here: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?t=16539 When I offered S-100 PCBs previously like the other N8VEM boards the unit costs came out at $25 for the prototyping board and $32 for the backplane. Both PCBs seem to work fine but I think the price was more than a lot of hobbyists were willing to pay. ?I can understand that so maybe this new method will work. For obvious reasons, I will not accept advance orders or payments in advance. This is a hobbyist project and non-commercial offering. ?My goal is to recover my own expenses of the PCB manufacturing order. ?I won't order a bunch of PCBs that no one wants and there is no point in proceeding if I am selling them at a loss. There are some on the waiting list already so maybe this will work. It really depends on how much participation there is which drives the order quantity up and unit cost down. As usual, constructive feedback is appreciated. ?Thanks and have nice day! Andrew Lynch From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 26 10:49:01 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 08:49:01 -0700 Subject: Ibm 5160 xt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A6C7AED.15899.29766BDE@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Jul 2009 at 14:38, Jacob Dahl Pind wrote: > I have recently pulled my 5160 xt out of storage, but the powersupple > seems to have given up on me, have anyone tried to repair one of those > before. If its powered up with load the fan spins up , but there is a > relay that is tricked on a small vertial installed print, turning the > whole thing off. > The case of the powersupple is big enough that I could put a new > powersuple inside it with a bit for rewiring if it turns out to not be > repairable. I think that the first task is to figure out if it's the power supply or the load that's causing things to trip. The 5160 PSU must be powered up with a load, or else the undercurrent circuit will trip. Using a hard disk (any hard disk, not just the one that came in the 5160) is a satisfactory load (with no motherboard connected). If the PSU stays up, look toward a fault in the motherboard or one of the associated components (expansion cards, floppy drives). If the PSU with a small load still trips, look to the capacitors in the PSU--very often, these are at fault and you may as well replace them all. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 26 13:26:16 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 19:26:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: TMS4500A DRAM Controller Datasheet needed In-Reply-To: <4A6B7357.4030708@brutman.com> from "Michael B. Brutman" at Jul 25, 9 04:04:23 pm Message-ID: > > > I'm looking at a memory expansion board for a PCjr that uses this chip > and I have found a pinout of it from the data sheet archives, but I'm > having some confusion that a real data sheet or application note would > clear up. (Specifically the sheet that I found says it supposed up to > 64Kbit DRAMs, but this board is constructed with 256Kbit DRAMS.) > > Does anybody have an version of the full data sheet and application > notes that they can send me a copy of? I have the data sheet on paper (in a TI memory databook), but I notice that Al has put it on-line, so I don't need to copy it. I've worked on the memory expansion PCB for the HP Integral, which uses this DRAM controller along with 256Kbit DRAMs, and I can describe what was done there... The basic problem is the the TMS4500 only has an 8 stage address multiplexer, providing 8 address outputs to the DRAMs. This is fine for 64K bit chips, but of courseyou need 9 bits for a 256K bit DRAM. So you add an external address multipexer chip (a '157 or '158), the problem is finding the signal to swtich it, since that signal is not brought out of the TMS4500. What HP did was to switch the multiplexer using the CAS output of the TMS4500. One section of the mux provided another address line to the DRAMs, a second section had one input tied high and the other tied low. The output of that followed the select input (and thus the CAS output of the 4500), but with a slight delay (due to the propagation delay of the multiplexer). This was delayed slightly more and used to vide the CAS signal to the DRAMs (the extra delay ensured all address lines had settled before CAS was asserted). I hope that gives you some hints as to what to look for... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 26 13:29:09 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 19:29:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Ibm 5160 xt In-Reply-To: from "Jacob Dahl Pind" at Jul 26, 9 02:38:19 pm Message-ID: > > I have recently pulled my 5160 xt out of storage, but the powersupple > seems to have given up on me, have anyone tried to repair one of those > before. Only trivial faults... But it's a _fairly_ conventional SMPSU, so it shouldn't be too hard. I should have a hand-drawn schematic of the PSU in my 5160. > If its powered up with load the fan spins up , but there is a relay that > is tricked on a small vertial installed print, turning the whole thing > off. > The case of the powersupple is big enough that I could put a new > powersuple inside it with a bit for rewiring if it turns out to not be > repairable. I would be suprised if it's not repairable... Given tht it died when in storage, I strongly suspect dried-up capacitors, particularly on the output side of the PSU. If you have an ESR meter, check them. If not, then either replace all the electrolytics, or get an ESR meter (it's very useful for fixing PSUs and monitors!) -tony From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Sun Jul 26 15:37:36 2009 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 15:37:36 -0500 (CDT) Subject: PDP11/34a resurrection help Message-ID: Greetings all; I've had an 11/34a in the basement for some time now, but haven't ever had it "working", nor have I messed with it in several years - which, of course, means I've forgotten almost everything I ever knew about them, which is almost nothing, so I'm starting from scratch, pretty much. My 11/34a used to run a Xerox laser and came with a CDC9762, the card cage looks like this: AAAAAA BBBBBB CCCCCC DDDDDD EEEEEE FFFFFF 1 M8266 -------------------------------------------| 2 M8265 -------------------------------------------| 3 FLIPCHIP 4 M9301 YJ-----| M7856---------------------------| 5 National Semiconductor Memory Board--------------| 6 G7232---------| 7 G7232---------| 8 G7232---------| 9 M9202--------| G7232---------| 10 M9202--------| X031-| 11 X020 --------------------------------------------| 12 X030 --------------------------------------------| 13 M7843 -------------------------------------------| 14 FLIPCHIP 15 FLIPCHIP 16 FLIPCHIP 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 M9302--------| AAAAAA BBBBBB CCCCCC DDDDDD EEEEEE FFFFFF (Where slots 1-9 are in the right-hand backplane when looking from the front, and 10-23 are in the left-hand 14 slot backplane, which M9202 bridges between) I've got the DL11-W set up in the same manner as the 300bps example in the 11/34 Users Manual (and the DL11-W Operators Manual), and at this time I have the three X* cards as well as the M7843 card removed as I don't believe they're required for boot. I've verified on the backplane that +5 sits at a steady +5.06VDC and -15 is at -14.86VDC. I do not possess an o-scope, so the best I can do is with my multimeter. I have two problems. The first is that I do not own a "proper" cable that goes from the DL11-W to a terminal. I own a VT240 and have crafted a cable that goes from the Berg connector on the DL11-W through a header to a DB9, which connects to a DB25/DB9 expander on the back of the VT240. Obviously I've verified the VT240 is in 300/8O1 as required. To go from the flat-ribbon to the DB9 I have what used to be the header from a CDROM drive and have soldered the RX/TX/GND lines on the DB9 direct to the pins on this header. Currently it looks like this: BERG DB9 B 5 GND F 2 RX J 3 TX I -think- this is right, but I'm not positive. If I'm doing something stupid, I'd sure love to have someone point it out. Booting the 11/34a gives me nothing on console, but... Even if my cable works the 11/34a doesn't seem to be acting like it is supposed to. From my reading of the User Manual on power on, with the front switches set to CONT and the BOOT/INIT switch toggled to INIT and then let go, I should get the RUN light to blink out and then come back on and stay on. When I power on the unit the RUN light comes on momentarily, and then goes out. When I toggle BOOT/INIT the light flicks on, and again, goes out. I'm suspecting this means that somewhere the 11/34a is halting. If my console worked, perhaps I would get something to it - although, for all I know the console does work and the 11/34a is dying prior to it spitting something out. I would love any and all input as to how I should proceed. I'm reading as much as I can, but I've got a long way to go and help would be greatly appreciated. My thanks; - JP From steve at cosam.org Sun Jul 26 16:13:38 2009 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 23:13:38 +0200 Subject: PDP11/34a resurrection help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <95838e090907261413i2c9815f1j299e7fa65c874cca@mail.gmail.com> JP Hindin wrote: > I have two problems. The first is that I do not own a "proper" cable that > goes from the DL11-W to a terminal. I own a VT240 and have crafted a cable > that goes from the Berg connector on the DL11-W through a header to a DB9, > which connects to a DB25/DB9 expander on the back of the VT240. > Obviously I've verified the VT240 is in 300/8O1 as required. To go from > the flat-ribbon to the DB9 I have what used to be the header from a CDROM > drive and have soldered the RX/TX/GND lines on the DB9 direct to the pins > on this header. Currently it looks like this: > BERG ? ?DB9 > B ? ? ? ?5 ? ?GND > F ? ? ? ?2 ? ?RX > J ? ? ? ?3 ? ?TX > I -think- this is right, but I'm not positive. If I'm doing something > stupid, I'd sure love to have someone point it out. I built a cable like the adapter you're describing here for a DL11-D and it looks like the same sort of deal. For a terminal, I think you want RX and TX the other way around (unless you're using a crossed cable from your adapter to the terminal, of course). You also need to connect the "interlock" pins too (E and M for EIA/RS-232). -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Sun Jul 26 17:28:21 2009 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 17:28:21 -0500 (CDT) Subject: PDP11/34a resurrection help In-Reply-To: <95838e090907261413i2c9815f1j299e7fa65c874cca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Jul 2009, Steve Maddison wrote: > > on this header. Currently it looks like this: > > BERG ? ?DB9 > > B ? ? ? ?5 ? ?GND > > F ? ? ? ?2 ? ?RX > > J ? ? ? ?3 ? ?TX > > I -think- this is right, but I'm not positive. If I'm doing something > > stupid, I'd sure love to have someone point it out. > > I built a cable like the adapter you're describing here for a DL11-D > and it looks like the same sort of deal. For a terminal, I think you > want RX and TX the other way around (unless you're using a crossed > cable from your adapter to the terminal, of course). You also need to > connect the "interlock" pins too (E and M for EIA/RS-232). I've verified the DB9<->DB25 does not cross, so I have rewired, and connected the interlocks (I'm not entirely positive what this does...?) My new adaptor is: Berg DB9 B 5 GND F 3 TX J 2 RX E-. Interlock bridged M-~ Interlock bridged Powering on the 11/34a gives me the same... nothing at all, but as I suspect the 11/34a is halting somewhere, this is probably quite reasonable. My thanks, Steve, for getting me a little closer. - JP From hachti at hachti.de Sun Jul 26 18:44:44 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 01:44:44 +0200 Subject: DEC RP02/RP03 issues Message-ID: <4A6CEA6C.805@hachti.de> Hi folks, I just stumbled across two RP02 and RP03 disk drives (2 RP02, 1 RP03) in probably repairable condition. We have all cables (power, "bus", "unit") needed to hook the beasts to a RP10 controller of a pdp10. Thinking of restoring and connecting them to a Unibus pdp11. The issues: - No controller - No media (RP02/03 use the same pack) - No information I currently don't even know if there's a special sector layout for pdp10, pdp11 etc. (like with RK05 drives). Or if there are any RP11 (or RP211?) controllers around. Does someone know anything? Have documentation? Have a controller? Packs? Does someone know anything about pack compatibilities? That could help a lot! The packs seem to have 10 disks and two half disks (only one surface used). I have not seen one. Any hints welcome. Best wishes, Philipp :-) From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Jul 27 10:10:10 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 08:10:10 -0700 Subject: PDP11/34a resurrection help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You mentioned that you've removed cards, which prompts me to ask: did you replace them with grant continuity cards? And did you verify that the NPG line is continuous, i.e. none of those cards you removed are making use of it? The M7843 doesn't use NPG, but I don't know about your 'X' cards. ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of JP Hindin [jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com] Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 1:37 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: PDP11/34a resurrection help Greetings all; I've had an 11/34a in the basement for some time now, but haven't ever had it "working", nor have I messed with it in several years - which, of course, means I've forgotten almost everything I ever knew about them, which is almost nothing, so I'm starting from scratch, pretty much. My 11/34a used to run a Xerox laser and came with a CDC9762, the card cage looks like this: AAAAAA BBBBBB CCCCCC DDDDDD EEEEEE FFFFFF 1 M8266 -------------------------------------------| 2 M8265 -------------------------------------------| 3 FLIPCHIP 4 M9301 YJ-----| M7856---------------------------| 5 National Semiconductor Memory Board--------------| 6 G7232---------| 7 G7232---------| 8 G7232---------| 9 M9202--------| G7232---------| 10 M9202--------| X031-| 11 X020 --------------------------------------------| 12 X030 --------------------------------------------| 13 M7843 -------------------------------------------| 14 FLIPCHIP 15 FLIPCHIP 16 FLIPCHIP 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 M9302--------| AAAAAA BBBBBB CCCCCC DDDDDD EEEEEE FFFFFF (Where slots 1-9 are in the right-hand backplane when looking from the front, and 10-23 are in the left-hand 14 slot backplane, which M9202 bridges between) I've got the DL11-W set up in the same manner as the 300bps example in the 11/34 Users Manual (and the DL11-W Operators Manual), and at this time I have the three X* cards as well as the M7843 card removed as I don't believe they're required for boot. I've verified on the backplane that +5 sits at a steady +5.06VDC and -15 is at -14.86VDC. I do not possess an o-scope, so the best I can do is with my multimeter. I have two problems. The first is that I do not own a "proper" cable that goes from the DL11-W to a terminal. I own a VT240 and have crafted a cable that goes from the Berg connector on the DL11-W through a header to a DB9, which connects to a DB25/DB9 expander on the back of the VT240. Obviously I've verified the VT240 is in 300/8O1 as required. To go from the flat-ribbon to the DB9 I have what used to be the header from a CDROM drive and have soldered the RX/TX/GND lines on the DB9 direct to the pins on this header. Currently it looks like this: BERG DB9 B 5 GND F 2 RX J 3 TX I -think- this is right, but I'm not positive. If I'm doing something stupid, I'd sure love to have someone point it out. Booting the 11/34a gives me nothing on console, but... Even if my cable works the 11/34a doesn't seem to be acting like it is supposed to. From my reading of the User Manual on power on, with the front switches set to CONT and the BOOT/INIT switch toggled to INIT and then let go, I should get the RUN light to blink out and then come back on and stay on. When I power on the unit the RUN light comes on momentarily, and then goes out. When I toggle BOOT/INIT the light flicks on, and again, goes out. I'm suspecting this means that somewhere the 11/34a is halting. If my console worked, perhaps I would get something to it - although, for all I know the console does work and the 11/34a is dying prior to it spitting something out. I would love any and all input as to how I should proceed. I'm reading as much as I can, but I've got a long way to go and help would be greatly appreciated. My thanks; - JP From steve at cosam.org Mon Jul 27 10:36:42 2009 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 17:36:42 +0200 Subject: PDP11/34a resurrection help In-Reply-To: References: <95838e090907261413i2c9815f1j299e7fa65c874cca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <95838e090907270836p1ef71386s2c99b4594950ddac@mail.gmail.com> JP Hindin wrote: > I've verified the DB9<->DB25 does not cross, so I have rewired, and > connected the interlocks (I'm not entirely positive what this does...?) The DL11 can do both EIA and current loop. The interlock effectively tells it which of those you want enabled. The "proper" cables have the appropriate interlock connected depending on what it connects to at the other end. > Powering on the 11/34a gives me the same... nothing at all, but as I > suspect the 11/34a is halting somewhere, this is probably quite > reasonable. You could try shortening the Unibus by pulling the M9202 and putting the M9203 in slot 9 of the first backplane. Is the M9203 set up for the ASCII console emulator? -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jul 27 11:43:09 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 09:43:09 -0700 Subject: DEC RP02/RP03 issues In-Reply-To: <4A6CEA6C.805@hachti.de> References: <4A6CEA6C.805@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4A6DD91D.3090802@bitsavers.org> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi folks, > > I just stumbled across two RP02 and RP03 disk drives (2 RP02, 1 RP03) in > probably repairable condition. > We have all cables (power, "bus", "unit") needed to hook the beasts to a > RP10 controller of a pdp10. Thinking of restoring and connecting them to > a Unibus pdp11. > Very difficult. RP11C controllers are pretty uncommon. The drives are standard IBM BUS/TAG interface, and are compatible with 2311-ish drives. 20 and 40mb. I have the manuals for the drives, they were made by Memorex. I'll see about getting them on line. The RP11 docs are already there under unibus. One of the people involved with the Mass Storage SIG at CHM designed the RP02 (Tom Garner) at Memorex. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jul 27 11:44:51 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 09:44:51 -0700 Subject: DEC RP02/RP03 issues In-Reply-To: <4A6DD91D.3090802@bitsavers.org> References: <4A6CEA6C.805@hachti.de> <4A6DD91D.3090802@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4A6DD983.6030607@bitsavers.org> Al Kossow wrote: > The drives are standard IBM BUS/TAG interface Not quite awake yet. They are obviously NOT BUS/TAG. From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Jul 27 12:07:55 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 10:07:55 -0700 Subject: DEC RP02/RP03 issues In-Reply-To: <4A6DD91D.3090802@bitsavers.org> References: <4A6CEA6C.805@hachti.de> <4A6DD91D.3090802@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Jul 27, 2009, at 9:43 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> Hi folks, >> I just stumbled across two RP02 and RP03 disk drives (2 RP02, 1 >> RP03) in probably repairable condition. >> We have all cables (power, "bus", "unit") needed to hook the beasts >> to a RP10 controller of a pdp10. Thinking of restoring and >> connecting them to a Unibus pdp11. > > Very difficult. RP11C controllers are pretty uncommon. They're also large. They take 1/2 of an H960 rack and have *lots* of flip chips. TTFN - Guy From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jul 27 12:15:39 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 10:15:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC RP02/RP03 issues In-Reply-To: <4A6CEA6C.805@hachti.de> References: <4A6CEA6C.805@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Jul 2009, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > I just stumbled across two RP02 and RP03 disk drives (2 RP02, 1 RP03) in > probably repairable condition. > We have all cables (power, "bus", "unit") needed to hook the beasts to a RP10 > controller of a pdp10. Thinking of restoring and connecting them to a Unibus > pdp11. This isn't the answer you want to hear, but if these had been hooked up to an RP10, wouldn't it make more sense to arrange for these drives to be used on a PDP-10 rather than a PDP-11? Unless I'm mistaken the PDP-11 varient are slightly more common. And yes, I'm saying this even though I *assume* you do not have a PDP-10. Zane From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Jul 27 12:35:47 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 10:35:47 -0700 Subject: DEC RP02/RP03 issues In-Reply-To: References: <4A6CEA6C.805@hachti.de> Message-ID: > From: Zane H. Healy > Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 10:16 AM > On Mon, 27 Jul 2009, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> I just stumbled across two RP02 and RP03 disk drives (2 RP02, 1 RP03) in >> probably repairable condition. We have all cables (power, "bus", "unit") >> needed to hook the beasts to a RP10 controller of a pdp10. Thinking of >> restoring and connecting them to a Unibus pdp11. > This isn't the answer you want to hear, but if these had been hooked up to > an RP10, wouldn't it make more sense to arrange for these drives to be used > on a PDP-10 rather than a PDP-11? Unless I'm mistaken the PDP-11 varient > are slightly more common. And yes, I'm saying this even though I *assume* > you do not have a PDP-10. Since, so far as I know, there is only one person on the planet with RP10 controllers on PDP-10 systems, and those are currently warehoused with no plans to do anything with them until he retires (in roughly 15 years), the need to hook these drives to a PDP-10 is vanishingly small. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell http://www.pdpplanet.org/ From shumaker at att.net Mon Jul 27 13:18:00 2009 From: shumaker at att.net (shumaker at att.net) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 18:18:00 +0000 Subject: govliquidation auction: CDC/MPI magnetic disk cartridges Message-ID: <072720091818.14475.4A6DEF5800094B2C0000388B22218683269B0A02D29B9B0EBF9D0A050E039A089C@att.net> interesting auction closes tomorrow on govliquidation event id is 4491 Lot no is 42 described as "magnum disk cartridge" in the title but details show it as 25 ea 8" magnetic disk cartridge with CDC, MPI and Honeywell ssource numbers. condition is rated 'A1" so they MAY be NOS in original pkgs. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 27 13:13:49 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 19:13:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP11/34a resurrection help In-Reply-To: from "JP Hindin" at Jul 26, 9 03:37:36 pm Message-ID: > I've got the DL11-W set up in the same manner as the 300bps example in the > 11/34 Users Manual (and the DL11-W Operators Manual), and at this time I > have the three X* cards as well as the M7843 card removed as I don't > believe they're required for boot. With na M9302 terminator at the end of the Unibus (as you have), that's going to cause problems. Basically, there are 5 signals known as 'grants' that are not bussed, they are passed from one card to the next along the backplane. If there's a gap (as there will be with cards removed), there's soem logic on the terminator that gets confuesed, and hangs the entire machine. I can give you a lot more details if you want it. To start with, though, youshould be able to run a short Unibus like that with no termintor at the far end -- just pul lthe M9302 card as well. > > I've verified on the backplane that +5 sits at a steady +5.06VDC and -15 > is at -14.86VDC. I do not possess an o-scope, so the best I can do is with > my multimeter. > > I have two problems. The first is that I do not own a "proper" cable that > goes from the DL11-W to a terminal. I own a VT240 and have crafted a cable > that goes from the Berg connector on the DL11-W through a header to a DB9, > which connects to a DB25/DB9 expander on the back of the VT240. > Obviously I've verified the VT240 is in 300/8O1 as required. To go from > the flat-ribbon to the DB9 I have what used to be the header from a CDROM > drive and have soldered the RX/TX/GND lines on the DB9 direct to the pins > on this header. Currently it looks like this: > BERG DB9 > B 5 GND > F 2 RX > J 3 TX > I -think- this is right, but I'm not positive. If I'm doing something > stupid, I'd sure love to have someone point it out. I think there's one thing you've forgotten, but it would only affect input from the terminal. And that's that you need a jumper wire on the Berg connector to connect the output of the RS232 receiver (for the RxD line) to the input of the UART (the reason for this jumper is that you can fit a different jumper to connect the current loop circuit to the UART). -tony From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Jul 27 13:55:34 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 11:55:34 -0700 Subject: PDP11/34a resurrection help In-Reply-To: References: from "JP Hindin" at Jul 26, 9 03:37:36 pm Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 11:14 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: PDP11/34a resurrection help > > > I've got the DL11-W set up in the same manner as the 300bps example > in the > > 11/34 Users Manual (and the DL11-W Operators Manual), and at this > time I > > have the three X* cards as well as the M7843 card removed as I don't > > believe they're required for boot. > > With na M9302 terminator at the end of the Unibus (as you have), that's > going to cause problems. Basically, there are 5 signals known as > 'grants' > that are not bussed, they are passed from one card to the next along > the > backplane. If there's a gap (as there will be with cards removed), > there's soem logic on the terminator that gets confuesed, and hangs the > entire machine. > > I can give you a lot more details if you want it. To start with, > though, > youshould be able to run a short Unibus like that with no termintor at > the far end -- just pul lthe M9302 card as well. > > > > > I've verified on the backplane that +5 sits at a steady +5.06VDC and > -15 > > is at -14.86VDC. I do not possess an o-scope, so the best I can do is > with > > my multimeter. > > > > I have two problems. The first is that I do not own a "proper" cable > that > > goes from the DL11-W to a terminal. I own a VT240 and have crafted a > cable > > that goes from the Berg connector on the DL11-W through a header to a > DB9, > > which connects to a DB25/DB9 expander on the back of the VT240. > > Obviously I've verified the VT240 is in 300/8O1 as required. To go > from > > the flat-ribbon to the DB9 I have what used to be the header from a > CDROM > > drive and have soldered the RX/TX/GND lines on the DB9 direct to the > pins > > on this header. Currently it looks like this: > > BERG DB9 > > B 5 GND > > F 2 RX > > J 3 TX > > I -think- this is right, but I'm not positive. If I'm doing something > > stupid, I'd sure love to have someone point it out. > > I think there's one thing you've forgotten, but it would only affect > input from the terminal. And that's that you need a jumper wire on the > Berg connector to connect the output of the RS232 receiver (for the RxD > line) to the input of the UART (the reason for this jumper is that you > can fit a different jumper to connect the current loop circuit to the > UART). > One thing that would help you a lot with the console cable: check out the prints for the DL11 (M7800) on Bitsavers (thanks, Al!). It has a table of the connections, including the jumper Tony mentions. These cables aren't all that uncommon, so you might be able to pick one up on ePay or from someone on this list. -- Ian From starbase89 at gmail.com Mon Jul 27 18:03:54 2009 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 19:03:54 -0400 Subject: Problems with IBM 5150 Power Message-ID: <2b1f1f550907271603h173ca58cv707cfe6d9a24bb87@mail.gmail.com> I recently acquired a 5150. It is a 16-64k with two drives and color. I have not been able to boot it up yet. I cleaned the inside, and made sure everything was well connected. When I flick the power on, the CPU fan goes, and nothing else. There is power coming out of the motherboard and drive connectors, but there is nothing at the ISA slot. No beeps or anything. I tested the power supply with a modern CD drive. It worked. I removed the motherboard and inspected it for obviously bad components and scorch marks. I then opened the power supply. It was pretty clean, except for the hornet's nest inside. I haven't yet removed that board, but plan to soon. The fuse is intact. Can anyone suggest what to do next? I have PDFs of the Hardware Maintaince manual and the technical service manual. Thanks Joe From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Mon Jul 27 18:15:41 2009 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 18:15:41 -0500 (CDT) Subject: PDP11/34a resurrection help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Jul 2009, Tony Duell wrote: > > I've got the DL11-W set up in the same manner as the 300bps example in the > > 11/34 Users Manual (and the DL11-W Operators Manual), and at this time I > > have the three X* cards as well as the M7843 card removed as I don't > > believe they're required for boot. > > With na M9302 terminator at the end of the Unibus (as you have), that's > going to cause problems. Basically, there are 5 signals known as 'grants' > that are not bussed, they are passed from one card to the next along the > backplane. If there's a gap (as there will be with cards removed), > there's soem logic on the terminator that gets confuesed, and hangs the > entire machine. > > I can give you a lot more details if you want it. To start with, though, > youshould be able to run a short Unibus like that with no termintor at > the far end -- just pul lthe M9302 card as well. Weeeeeeell... I'm not sure if I've just broken it for the better or for the worse, but it's definitely doing something different. This is the sequence of events (with power offs in between, of course) - I removed the M9302 and powered the unit up, RUN light on, immediately off, as usual. - I removed the M9202 that bridges the short bus to the long bus. No change. I noticed that one of the boards I removed, the X031, has a regulator on it (it has -15VDC silkscreened on it, not that that helps), and although I suspected it must be needed for the other X* cards, I thought I'd drop it in and see. - With the X031 in, the M9202 in, but the M9302 out, I power on - the RUN light comes on and STAYS on. But flicking the BOOT/INIT switch does not make it go out at all, which I _think_ it's supposed to do. Flicking HALT/CONT also does not make the light go out. Great. Now I've hosed it. - I remove the X031, power on. Same (RUN light stuck on) - I put the M9302 in, same again. - I remove the M9202, and what do you know, back to the RUN light going off and staying off, except wheen BOOT/INIT is toggled, and then it flicks out again. If I put the M9202 in and bridge the busses (without any boards in the 'big bus') the RUN light stays on. Remove the M9202, it's off and won't go on except momentarily when the BOOT/INIT is toggled. I see nothing on the console, although I'm still vaguely suspect I've gotten something wrong (about how long should I expect to wait before the $ should pop up?). Boy, I'd love to know what it sounds like to you folks. I appreciate all of the suggestions I've received, onlist and off, thanks to all for your help. - JP From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Mon Jul 27 19:42:29 2009 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 19:42:29 -0500 (CDT) Subject: PDP11/34a resurrection help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Jul 2009, Ian King wrote: > > I think there's one thing you've forgotten, but it would only affect > > input from the terminal. And that's that you need a jumper wire on the > > Berg connector to connect the output of the RS232 receiver (for the RxD > > line) to the input of the UART (the reason for this jumper is that you > > can fit a different jumper to connect the current loop circuit to the > > UART). > > > > One thing that would help you a lot with the console cable: check out > the prints for the DL11 (M7800) on Bitsavers (thanks, Al!). It has a > table of the connections, including the jumper Tony mentions. These > cables aren't all that uncommon, so you might be able to pick one up on > ePay or from someone on this list. -- Ian Just to make sure I'm understanding this fully - this is the Berg connector lines E & M bridge that Steve Maddison mentioned first, right? (Which I have, in fact, completed in my updated cable) Thanks; - JP From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 27 22:20:01 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 20:20:01 -0700 Subject: Problems with IBM 5150 Power In-Reply-To: <2b1f1f550907271603h173ca58cv707cfe6d9a24bb87@mail.gmail.com> References: <2b1f1f550907271603h173ca58cv707cfe6d9a24bb87@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A6E6E61.8433.3115669D@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Jul 2009 at 19:03, Joe Giliberti wrote: > Can anyone suggest what to do next? I have PDFs of the Hardware > Maintaince manual and the technical service manual. I assume you're re-seated all of the socketed chips and probed a bit with a scope or logic probe to see that the processor is at least ticking over--and you've checked your display switch settings. There are inexpensive POST cards that can display any POST error codes, but if you're not even getting a beep, that doesn't sound good. It's not unknown for the old mask-programmed 8Kx8 ROMs to develop bit rot. If you suspect this, you can either use a 2764-type 28-pin EPROM and rig up an adapter to fit the 24-pin socket or pick up some Motorola 68764 EPROMs and program them and use them directly. Amazingly, during the 5150's heyday, they were near unobtainum, but I've seen them offered NOS for something like $6 the each lately. --Chuck From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Jul 28 02:33:42 2009 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 00:33:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Andromeda Systems (ebay) Message-ID: <147825.58457.qm@web82606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Ebay Item # 350229860975 VINTAGE ANDROMEDA SYSTEMS 11/B ASI TAPE/DISK DRIVE Despite the seller's description, this looks to be a complete computer. Any idea what it is? --Bill From nico at farumdata.dk Tue Jul 28 03:35:52 2009 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 10:35:52 +0200 Subject: Andromeda Systems (ebay) References: <147825.58457.qm@web82606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6ADC3B07FB544FD7AD3325FE88F3EC1B@udvikling> Looks like a box with 2x 8" floppydrives to me. The texts next to the switches are hard to read, but one of them seems to read "BOOT" Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Maddox" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 9:33 AM Subject: Andromeda Systems (ebay) > > Ebay Item # 350229860975 > > VINTAGE ANDROMEDA SYSTEMS 11/B ASI TAPE/DISK DRIVE > > Despite the seller's description, this looks to be a complete > computer. Any idea what it is? > > --Bill > > From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Jul 28 06:15:42 2009 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 04:15:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Andromeda Systems (ebay) Message-ID: <89354.61796.qm@web82605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 7/28/09, Nico de Jong wrote: > Looks like a box with 2x 8" > floppydrives to me. The texts next to the > switches are hard to read, but one of them seems to read > "BOOT" There appears to be another compartment below the drives. Also, there are D-sub connectors on the back that look like they are for connecting terminals or other I/O. I bring this up because of a few references I dug up on the internet that link Andromeda Systems with DEC-compatible gear. My guess is that this is an LSI-11 system, but it's just a guess. --Bill From menadeau at comcast.net Tue Jul 28 06:48:32 2009 From: menadeau at comcast.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 07:48:32 -0400 Subject: Andromeda Systems (ebay) References: <147825.58457.qm@web82606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002201ca0f79$55726420$6501a8c0@Mike> It is an LSI-11 based system from around 1977/1978. > Ebay Item # 350229860975 > > VINTAGE ANDROMEDA SYSTEMS 11/B ASI TAPE/DISK DRIVE > > Despite the seller's description, this looks to be a complete > computer. Any idea what it is? > > --Bill > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 28 09:10:36 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 10:10:36 -0400 Subject: Andromeda Systems (ebay) In-Reply-To: <89354.61796.qm@web82605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <89354.61796.qm@web82605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 7:15 AM, William Maddox wrote: > > --- On Tue, 7/28/09, Nico de Jong wrote: > >> Looks like a box with 2x 8" >> floppydrives to me. The texts next to the >> switches are hard to read, but one of them seems to read >> "BOOT" BOOT and the more suggestive "Line Clock". > There appears to be another compartment below the drives. > Also, there are D-sub connectors on the back that look like > they are for connecting terminals or other I/O. > I bring this up because of a few references I dug up on the > internet that link Andromeda Systems with DEC-compatible gear. > My guess is that this is an LSI-11 system, but it's just a > guess. I have some Qbus Andromeda cards, but I didn't know they ever made whole systems. The blue PCB that's behind the DB25s in one of the shots is the color of the Andromeda boards I have. In the early LSI-11 days, DEC had the DLV11J, but no backpanel (you used individual cables) yet. The board that's on the other end of those DB25s is likely to be an Andromeda DLV11J clone (I have one in the basement). My first guess for the 40-pin Berg on the backpanel would be an LPV11 or Andromeda equivalent. It's a shame the seller didn't send pictures of the boards - there's almost certainly a Qbus backplane under there, but no way of knowing how it's populated. It could be anything from an LSI-11 processor (PDP-11/03 and similar) to a KDF11 (PDP-11/23 and similar) to empty. There's no way to guess the memory except to say that it's not going to be core; the most common memories from that era were based on 4K or 16K DRAMs (but there are a few exceptions). That looks like a cute little box. If I had it, I'd probable run RT-11 on it since it probably has very little room for peripheral expansion (though an RLV12 would be nice and simple to install and cable, if there happens to be a free quad slot on the backplane; and for OSes with MSCP support, there's always SCSI if you have a card already or can afford one). -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 28 00:32:14 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 06:32:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Problems with IBM 5150 Power In-Reply-To: <2b1f1f550907271603h173ca58cv707cfe6d9a24bb87@mail.gmail.com> from "Joe Giliberti" at Jul 27, 9 07:03:54 pm Message-ID: > > I recently acquired a 5150. It is a 16-64k with two drives and color. I have > not been able to boot it up yet. I cleaned the inside, and made sure > everything was well connected. When I flick the power on, the CPU fan goes, > and nothing else. There is power coming out of the motherboard and drive > connectors, but there is nothing at the ISA slot. No beeps or anything. I Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but surely if you're getting power at the power output connectors of the PSU, the fault is not in the PSU. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 28 00:33:42 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 06:33:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP11/34a resurrection help In-Reply-To: from "JP Hindin" at Jul 27, 9 07:42:29 pm Message-ID: [DL11 'interlock' jumper] > Just to make sure I'm understanding this fully - this is the Berg > connector lines E & M bridge that Steve Maddison mentioned first, right? > (Which I have, in fact, completed in my updated cable) Yes, that's correct. I saw your updated wirelist after I sent my message, I noted you now have the jumper in place. -tony From starbase89 at gmail.com Tue Jul 28 13:12:44 2009 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 14:12:44 -0400 Subject: Problems with IBM 5150 Power In-Reply-To: References: <2b1f1f550907271603h173ca58cv707cfe6d9a24bb87@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2b1f1f550907281112y5dc1b10bgf275512d0baa3ebb@mail.gmail.com> It is very likely not a PSU fault. I wasn't sure on this, but could the PSU behave differently with and without load?? Joe On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 1:32 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I recently acquired a 5150. It is a 16-64k with two drives and color. I > have > > not been able to boot it up yet. I cleaned the inside, and made sure > > everything was well connected. When I flick the power on, the CPU fan > goes, > > and nothing else. There is power coming out of the motherboard and drive > > connectors, but there is nothing at the ISA slot. No beeps or anything. I > > Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but surely if you're getting power at > the power output connectors of the PSU, the fault is not in the PSU. > > -tony > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 28 13:47:53 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 11:47:53 -0700 Subject: Problems with IBM 5150 Power In-Reply-To: <2b1f1f550907281112y5dc1b10bgf275512d0baa3ebb@mail.gmail.com> References: <2b1f1f550907271603h173ca58cv707cfe6d9a24bb87@mail.gmail.com>, , <2b1f1f550907281112y5dc1b10bgf275512d0baa3ebb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A6F47D9.1803.34671980@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Jul 2009 at 14:12, Joe Giliberti wrote: > It is very likely not a PSU fault. I wasn't sure on this, but could > the PSU behave differently with and without load?? The 5150 PSU will not operate without a load. At least a diskette drive must be attached. Unlike other later power supplies, the 16- 64K 5150 uses an AC fan, so it will keep running even though the supply has shut down, so don't use the fan sound as an indicator of anything. If the PSU has measurable output (within tolerance of +5, +12, -5 and -12) on all outputs with just a diskette drive load, connect the PSU to the motherboard. What wasn't clear from your narrative was the "Nothing at the ISA slot" statement. Does this mean that you measured correct voltages at the motherboard connector (with the motherboard attached) but not at the ISA slot? If so, there's something really strange going on; most likely a broken PCB trace or cold solder joint. On the other hand if the output goes away when you attach the PSU to the motherboard, you'll want to start checking for shorts. Quite often, this is a motherboard capacitor gone bad. Your ohmmeter can indicate which supply line is at fault. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 28 14:37:13 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 12:37:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Problems with IBM 5150 Power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090728123413.Y41610@shell.lmi.net> > I recently acquired a 5150. It is a 16-64k with two drives and color. I have > not been able to boot it up yet. I cleaned the inside, and made sure > everything was well connected. When I flick the power on, the CPU fan goes, If your 5150 has a CPU fan, then it has been MODIFIED. Most of the time, the faults lie in badly planned or implemented modifications. If you mean the power supply fan, then that means nothing in the 5150 (AC fan?) > and nothing else. There is power coming out of the motherboard and drive > connectors, but there is nothing at the ISA slot. No beeps or anything. I Is there power to the 8088? to the ROMs? From tpeters at mixcom.com Tue Jul 28 17:27:50 2009 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 17:27:50 -0500 Subject: Andromeda Systems (ebay) In-Reply-To: <89354.61796.qm@web82605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20090728172602.0d0e6d30@localhost> OMG I used to work on a computer that ran some sort of multiuser CP/M (but not MP/M) that booted from an 8" floppy and had a winchester inside- I think it was an Andromeda. I think it was S100. Is that possible? Is my memory failing? At 04:15 AM 7/28/2009 -0700, you wrote: >--- On Tue, 7/28/09, Nico de Jong wrote: > > > Looks like a box with 2x 8" > > floppydrives to me. The texts next to the > > switches are hard to read, but one of them seems to read > > "BOOT" > >There appears to be another compartment below the drives. >Also, there are D-sub connectors on the back that look like >they are for connecting terminals or other I/O. >I bring this up because of a few references I dug up on the >internet that link Andromeda Systems with DEC-compatible gear. >My guess is that this is an LSI-11 system, but it's just a >guess. > >--Bill ----- 115. [Computing] LOAD "vmunix",8,1 --dack at este.darmstadt.gmd.de (Sven C. Dack) --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 28 18:08:08 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 16:08:08 -0700 Subject: Andromeda Systems (ebay) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20090728172602.0d0e6d30@localhost> References: <89354.61796.qm@web82605.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, <5.1.0.14.2.20090728172602.0d0e6d30@localhost> Message-ID: <4A6F84D8.27054.35555DB8@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Jul 2009 at 17:27, Tom Peters wrote: > OMG I used to work on a computer that ran some sort of multiuser CP/M > (but not MP/M) that booted from an 8" floppy and had a winchester > inside- I think it was an Andromeda. I think it was S100. Maybe a Molecular? (Ran CP/M, one CPU per user). --Chuck From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Jul 28 18:46:38 2009 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 19:46:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Vintage Props for auction In-Reply-To: References: <4A69132D.6080706@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: 20th Century Props is currently auctioning off its property, starting today: http://www.greatamerican.com/GAGAuction/Auctions/AuctionDetails.aspx?Id=393 I noticed a pair of ASR-33's: http://www.sellauction.com/ga/EVENTS/GA073009/IMG/4463.jpg http://www.sellauction.com/ga/EVENTS/GA073009/IMG/4464.jpg Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Tue Jul 28 23:26:10 2009 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 06:26:10 +0200 Subject: Vintage Props for auction In-Reply-To: References: <4A69132D.6080706@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 01:46, Mike Loewen wrote: > > 20th Century Props is currently auctioning off its property, starting > today: > > An upside down Fujitsu Eagle front panel on this one : http://www.sellauction.com/ga/EVENTS/GA073109/IMG/5032-5033.jpg (lot 5032, 5033) -- Stephane Paris, France. http://3w.posterous.com From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Wed Jul 29 00:03:40 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 22:03:40 -0700 Subject: Looking for early versions of Symbolics Genera (or other 'bolix software) Message-ID: <4A6FD82C.6090601@mail.msu.edu> Anyone out there have versions of Genera prior to 8.1.1 they'd be willing to share? I've been playing with my 3630 and I thought it would be interesting to load older versions of Genera to play with. I'm also looking for other software to run on Symbolics machines -- I have the 8.3 distribution set from David Schmidt which includes Statice, Concordia, Joshua and DNA, as well as the S-Graphics package. Any good games? :) (Also: if anyone knows how to get a "new" ESDI disk up and running on one of these things, let me know... I'm guessing I need software I don't have to do so. I have a nice 760mb drive I'd like to put to use, but I can't find documentation on how to do anything other than a low-level format.) Thanks, Josh From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed Jul 29 00:52:58 2009 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 22:52:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage Props for auction Message-ID: <541772.59966.qm@web82605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> This one looks like it may have pieces of the front panels of early computer gear. Pretty dirty, but if I were in the area, I'd probably check it out and see what it is. http://www.sellauction.com/ga/EVENTS/GA073109/IMG/5069.jpg These look like they may be racks of real gear, rather than gutted-out facades, but who knows? Looks more like instrumentation than computer stuff. http://www.sellauction.com/ga/EVENTS/GA073109/IMG/5087.jpg http://www.sellauction.com/ga/EVENTS/GA073109/IMG/5088.jpg --Bill From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Jul 29 12:14:09 2009 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 13:14:09 -0400 Subject: Andromeda Systems (ebay) Message-ID: Andromeda sold some cool Q-bus chassis with drive mountings and power supply integral. I think the one in the E-bay auction is two 3U sized cabinets either just sitting on each other or maybe screwed into each other. One cool Andromeda product that was available for a while in the mid-90's, had power supply, room for a few 5.25" and 3.5" drives (I think by default with hot-swap caddies... that may have been just added on though), and a Q-bus chassis all in a desktop small PC-clone style case. With just two cards (a Mentec CPU with 4MB memory and serial lines + an Andromeda SCSI controller + Ethernet, a tape drive, a floppy, and a couple hard drives) it was a neat, almost laptop-sized PDP-11 development environment. That came in really handy when I was traveling all the time. Tim. From Watzman at neo.rr.com Wed Jul 29 12:39:55 2009 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 13:39:55 -0400 Subject: Problems with IBM 5150 Power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8991DDB5E70F45B4BC02314D86458EDE@Barry> Re: "If you mean the power supply fan, then that means nothing in the 5150 (AC fan?)" That's not true. The fan is run on DC from one of the outputs (12 volts, I think, but it might be 5 volts). So a working fan is a good sign. But an entire output voltage can still be completely dead. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 29 13:56:07 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 11:56:07 -0700 Subject: Problems with IBM 5150 Power In-Reply-To: <8991DDB5E70F45B4BC02314D86458EDE@Barry> References: , <8991DDB5E70F45B4BC02314D86458EDE@Barry> Message-ID: <4A709B47.12380.AE5D92@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Jul 2009 at 13:39, Barry Watzman wrote: > Re: "If you mean the power supply fan, then that means nothing in the > 5150 (AC fan?)" > > That's not true. The fan is run on DC from one of the outputs (12 > volts, I think, but it might be 5 volts). So a working fan is a good > sign. But an entire output voltage can still be completely dead. Not on the original version of the 16-64K 62.5 watt 5150 "Black Box" power supply--it used an AC fan. I'd suspected this was done to thwart those who wanted to buy the 5150 in the US (this was before the export version was available) and ship them overseas. But it could have been a matter of what was available to manufacturing. The official word that I received through IBM Marketing that if we did so, any warranty would be void--they did not mince words. We bought a bunch and shipped them to India anyway--ran them from a rotary converter that put out 120v 60Hz. Given the state of Delhi's electrical distribution system at the time, it was probably just as well--at least there was some measure of line regulation. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 29 14:10:37 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 12:10:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Problems with IBM 5150 Power In-Reply-To: <4A709B47.12380.AE5D92@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <8991DDB5E70F45B4BC02314D86458EDE@Barry> <4A709B47.12380.AE5D92@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20090729120451.F92542@shell.lmi.net> On 29 Jul 2009 at 13:39, Barry Watzman wrote: > > That's not true. The On Wed, 29 Jul 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Not on the original version of the 16-64K 62.5 watt 5150 "Black Box" > power supply--it used an AC fan. I'd suspected this was done to I am hesitant to tell anybody that they are WRONG about the original 5150 power supplies. I sae at least 5 different versions shipped in them! The first one that I got (direct from IBM) was black and had a WHITE switch toggle! With ONE of the varieties (with red switch toggle), the switch itself broke often. But we pried the tabs open moved the contacts back into position, secured them, and got them working again. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 29 16:58:54 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 14:58:54 -0700 Subject: Problems with IBM 5150 Power In-Reply-To: <20090729120451.F92542@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4A709B47.12380.AE5D92@cclist.sydex.com>, <20090729120451.F92542@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4A70C61E.31091.155B858@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Jul 2009 at 12:10, Fred Cisin wrote: > I am hesitant to tell anybody that they are WRONG about the original > 5150 power supplies. I sae at least 5 different versions shipped in > them! That's true. However all of the very early ones that I've seen have AC fans. I think when demand surprised IBM, they started using alternate sources for many parts. --Chuck From hachti at hachti.de Wed Jul 29 18:56:14 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 01:56:14 +0200 Subject: DEC RP02/RP03 issues In-Reply-To: References: <4A6CEA6C.805@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4A70E19E.9000903@hachti.de> Hi everybody, thanks for your replies! >> This isn't the answer you want to hear, but if these had been hooked up to >> an RP10, wouldn't it make more sense to arrange for these drives to be used >> on a PDP-10 rather than a PDP-11? Yes, it would. But I did NOT have the space to take the pdp10. I helped to load most of it into two trucks last saturday.... > Unless I'm mistaken the PDP-11 varient >> are slightly more common. And yes, I'm saying this even though I *assume* >> you do not have a PDP-10. No. And I cannot have one. Too big. But my computer collectors' society now has three drives. I could give them to the people who took the pdp10 - but I doubt that they will accept them.. They got several other drives as well. > Since, so far as I know, there is only one person on the planet with RP10 > controllers on PDP-10 systems, and those are currently warehoused with no > plans to do anything with them until he retires (in roughly 15 years), the > need to hook these drives to a PDP-10 is vanishingly small. So now you know of another one. There is at least one of those controllers here in Germany. Probably two. Because we found two complete sets of cables. > They're also large. They take 1/2 of an H960 rack and have *lots* of flip chips. Yes, they are. But probably still around somewhere. I think that it's easier to get such a controller than get the drives... With the controller, we could set up the original Unix configuration, I've been told. Which disk drives should I take else? Just scrap the RP02/02 machines? They look so nice! And they're impressive! Would be a pity..... > Very difficult. RP11C controllers are pretty uncommon. :-( But there IS some hope....! If they're more uncommon than RS64 fixed head disks, there is even more hope :) > The drives are standard IBM BUS/TAG interface, and are compatible with > 2311-ish drives. 20 and 40mb. As you said in your next posting... They're not. Ok. I don't know either of the interfaces. The drives have a big interconnected bus and an individual unit cable. I have all the cables (unit, bus, power). I "only" need the controller. > I have the manuals for the drives, they were made by Memorex. I'll see about > getting them on line. The RP11 docs are already there under unibus. One of the > people involved with the Mass Storage SIG at CHM designed the RP02 (Tom Garner) > at Memorex. Hm, docs for the drives would be a good starting point. And if everything fails, I will think of building a controller by means of modern microelectronics (i.e. programmable logic). Would be not so nice, but better than scrapping the drives...! Who is corestore? He has a picture of an RP11 controller on his website. Perhaps he doesn't need it anymore? Best wishes, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jul 29 19:32:57 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 18:32:57 -0600 Subject: DEC RP02/RP03 issues In-Reply-To: <4A70E19E.9000903@hachti.de> References: <4A6CEA6C.805@hachti.de> <4A70E19E.9000903@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4A70EA39.9070107@jetnet.ab.ca> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Who is corestore? He has a picture of an RP11 controller on his website. > Perhaps he doesn't need it anymore? You can allways email[1] and find out for sure. Ben. > Best wishes, > > Philipp > [1] Well at one time you could email people. :( From rborsuk at colourfull.com Wed Jul 29 22:31:38 2009 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 23:31:38 -0400 Subject: Bug Bytes - Free for Shipping cost - IF ? Message-ID: Found this while digging through the garage. Free for the cost of shipping - IF - your the first person to identify What it is? and possibly where it was used (what machine) Here's the pics http://homepage.mac.com/irisworld/ebay_2009/bugbuster1.jpg http://homepage.mac.com/irisworld/ebay_2009/bugbuster2.jpg Magnetic Tape in case. Rob ps. Located in New Baltimore, MI. 48047 Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jul 29 22:33:57 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 20:33:57 -0700 Subject: DEC RP02/RP03 issues In-Reply-To: <4A70E19E.9000903@hachti.de> References: <4A6CEA6C.805@hachti.de> <4A70E19E.9000903@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4A7114A5.8090200@bitsavers.org> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > I could give them to the people who took the pdp10 - but I doubt that > they will accept them.. They got several other drives as well. > KA10, from a German museum that was downsizing? From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 29 23:20:12 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 21:20:12 -0700 Subject: Bug Bytes - Free for Shipping cost - IF ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A711F7C.1710.2B2CE11@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Jul 2009 at 23:31, Robert Borsuk wrote: > Found this while digging through the garage. Free for the cost of > shipping - IF - your the first person to identify What it is? and > possibly where it was used (what machine) > > Here's the pics > > http://homepage.mac.com/irisworld/ebay_2009/bugbuster1.jpg > http://homepage.mac.com/irisworld/ebay_2009/bugbuster2.jpg > > Magnetic Tape in case. Bugbusters is still around at http://www.bugbusters.net. RSF seems to be targeted at the IBM AS/400 systems. --Chuck From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Jul 30 02:02:48 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 09:02:48 +0200 Subject: DEC RP02/RP03 issues In-Reply-To: <4A70E19E.9000903@hachti.de> References: <4A6CEA6C.805@hachti.de> <4A70E19E.9000903@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20090730090248.5a3090d1.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 30 Jul 2009 01:56:14 +0200 Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > I could give them to the people who took the pdp10 A PDP-10 in Germany? Details please! -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From wmaddox at pacbell.net Thu Jul 30 02:14:58 2009 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 00:14:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: List admin problems? Message-ID: <495351.36170.qm@web82601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Am I the only person who has had trouble subscribing to the list? I've attempted a couple of times over the last couple of weeks to subscribe another email address with no success. I don't know if the moderators are just backed up, or if the requests are getting black-holed. --Bill From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Jul 30 02:27:19 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 09:27:19 +0200 Subject: For the swedes: Free digital LP25 Message-ID: <20090730072719.GA23027@Update.UU.SE> Hi At work we have a non-working LP25 that is threatened by dumping. It wont go away soon, but at this time next year it is probably gone. I'm told it suffers a standard fault of a worn out drive wheel. If you want it, its free for pick-up. http://vt100.net/docs/tp83/full1602.jpg Cheers, Pontus. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Jul 30 04:20:56 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 11:20:56 +0200 (CEST) Subject: DEC RP02/RP03 issues In-Reply-To: <4A7114A5.8090200@bitsavers.org> References: <4A6CEA6C.805@hachti.de> <4A70E19E.9000903@hachti.de> <4A7114A5.8090200@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Jul 2009, Al Kossow wrote: > KA10, from a German museum that was downsizing? Yes... I wish our museum had the space to take all the goodies :-( But we are limited to about 100 m^2 and could easily use ten times of that. Christian From dogas at bellsouth.net Thu Jul 30 07:51:06 2009 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 08:51:06 -0400 Subject: List admin problems? In-Reply-To: <495351.36170.qm@web82601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <495351.36170.qm@web82601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A71973A.3010606@bellsouth.net> William Maddox wrote: > Am I the only person who has had trouble subscribing to the list? > I've attempted a couple of times over the last couple of weeks > to subscribe another email address with no success. I don't know > if the moderators are just backed up, or if the requests are getting > black-holed. > You're not the only one. Joe Rigdon, an old timer here has tried for months to get back on the list.... - Mike From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Jul 30 09:25:46 2009 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 08:25:46 -0600 Subject: am29c111 In-Reply-To: <4A392F8E.10308@jkearney.com> References: <20090616110940.kdzn17jqmwccwko0@webmail.opentransfer.com> <4A38E722.1050207@jkearney.com> <20090617161910.3jxzax2d4w0soowk@webmail.opentransfer.com> <4A392F8E.10308@jkearney.com> Message-ID: <4A71AD6A.30301@e-bbes.com> Trying again, nobady has a datasheet for them ? Thanks in advance From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jul 30 11:46:44 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 10:46:44 -0600 Subject: am29c111 In-Reply-To: <4A71AD6A.30301@e-bbes.com> References: <20090616110940.kdzn17jqmwccwko0@webmail.opentransfer.com> <4A38E722.1050207@jkearney.com> <20090617161910.3jxzax2d4w0soowk@webmail.opentransfer.com> <4A392F8E.10308@jkearney.com> <4A71AD6A.30301@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <4A71CE74.5000904@jetnet.ab.ca> try bitsavers. I know they have a few data books there. From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Jul 30 12:00:51 2009 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 11:00:51 -0600 Subject: am29c111 In-Reply-To: <4A71CE74.5000904@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20090616110940.kdzn17jqmwccwko0@webmail.opentransfer.com> <4A38E722.1050207@jkearney.com> <20090617161910.3jxzax2d4w0soowk@webmail.opentransfer.com> <4A392F8E.10308@jkearney.com> <4A71AD6A.30301@e-bbes.com> <4A71CE74.5000904@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4A71D1C3.1080809@e-bbes.com> Ben wrote: > try bitsavers. I know they have a few data books there. > I checked the obvious. But it is relatively new, 1982's ? From mross666 at hotmail.com Thu Jul 30 12:12:01 2009 From: mross666 at hotmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 17:12:01 +0000 Subject: DEC RP02/RP03 issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: corestore here.... yes I have an RP11, and an RP15. And as of a couple of weeks ago, I have an RP02 and two RP03s! Strange that they should now turn up in two different places almost at the same time. Keep me updated - I intend to get my drives working, if you decide you don't need your drives any more, talk to me first! I also have RP04s, which are almost as interesting, but have a massbus interface which makes them a lot easier to get working... Pics to follow Mike http://www.corestore.org _________________________________________________________________ NEW mobile Hotmail. Optimized for YOUR phone. Click here. http://windowslive.com/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_CS_MB_new_hotmail_072009 From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jul 30 13:17:42 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 14:17:42 -0400 Subject: List admin problems? In-Reply-To: <495351.36170.qm@web82601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <495351.36170.qm@web82601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jul 30, 2009, at 3:14 AM, William Maddox wrote: > Am I the only person who has had trouble subscribing to the list? > I've attempted a couple of times over the last couple of weeks > to subscribe another email address with no success. I don't know > if the moderators are just backed up, or if the requests are getting > black-holed. It took me a while to get back on. I had intended to unsub from cctech and resub to cctalk. The former took a moment, the latter almost two months. The Mailman subscription control interface was broken for a long time, and may still be. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jul 30 13:19:12 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 11:19:12 -0700 Subject: DEC RP02/RP03 issues In-Reply-To: References: <4A6CEA6C.805@hachti.de> <4A70E19E.9000903@hachti.de> <4A7114A5.8090200@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4A71E420.4020803@bitsavers.org> Christian Corti wrote: > On Wed, 29 Jul 2009, Al Kossow wrote: >> KA10, from a German museum that was downsizing? > > Yes... > I wish our museum had the space to take all the goodies :-( But we are > limited to about 100 m^2 and could easily use ten times of that. > Has anyone been in contact with the museum in Aachen about their collection? (http://www.aachen.de/EN/ts/140_museums/140_15.html) I suspect they may have a KA10 CPU and memory. I have a theory that what was in Dortmund may have been from downsizing the Aachen holdings, and everything from a KA10 except the CPU and memory were there. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jul 30 13:20:00 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 11:20:00 -0700 Subject: am29c111 In-Reply-To: <4A71D1C3.1080809@e-bbes.com> References: <20090616110940.kdzn17jqmwccwko0@webmail.opentransfer.com> <4A38E722.1050207@jkearney.com> <20090617161910.3jxzax2d4w0soowk@webmail.opentransfer.com> <4A392F8E.10308@jkearney.com> <4A71AD6A.30301@e-bbes.com> <4A71CE74.5000904@jetnet.ab.ca> <4A71D1C3.1080809@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <4A71E450.1030508@bitsavers.org> e.stiebler wrote: > Ben wrote: >> try bitsavers. I know they have a few data books there. >> > I checked the obvious. But it is relatively new, 1982's ? > > I have it, just not on line yet. From h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl Thu Jul 30 15:35:09 2009 From: h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl (Henk Stegeman) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 22:35:09 +0200 Subject: IBM System/3 turns 40 ! Message-ID: Hi all, On 30 July 1969 IBM announced the IBM System/3 in the United States. It is today fourty year ago that IBM offered the first medium-sized computer for the small business companies. The System/3 was not compatible with the System/360, as it featured a complete new architecture. It also featured a complete new punch card format, which was a small revolution within IBM. See for the development story behind the System/3: http://www.ibmsystem3.nl/hist.html IBM promoted this new system with a 14 minute promotion movie. This movie can be seen on youtube. Be patient, it takes until 3:22 until you find out what it's about: "Are you getting the most out of your workforce and tools?" And until 8:18 before you see the new S/3. See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRS3eXQ9gGY and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3Jrn9yNZAM During its live span approx 50,000 System/3 where build. Today only a few have escaped the scrapyard. The number of still running S/3 can be counted on one hand. See: http://www.ibmsystem3.nl/remaining.html After the succesful S/3 IBM announced the S/32, S/34, S/36, S/38 and AS/400. The S/38 was architecturally completely new compared to the S/3/32/34/36 All System/3 models had been withdrawn from marketing by June 1985. --//-- From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 30 18:07:08 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 16:07:08 -0700 Subject: IBM System/3 turns 40 ! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A72279C.19908.6BA896B@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Jul 2009 at 22:35, Henk Stegeman wrote: > On 30 July 1969 IBM announced the IBM System/3 in the United States. > > It is today fourty year ago that IBM offered the first medium-sized > computer for the small business companies. The System/3 was not > compatible with the System/360, as it featured a complete new > architecture. It also featured a complete new punch card format, which > was a small revolution within IBM. Wasn't one of the problems with the 96 column mini-card that it used only 6 punch positions per character on an otherwise 8-bt machine? For those of you having used the system, was there such a thing as column binary on the little cards? If so, was it 4 columns = 3 bytes? --Chuck From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 30 19:03:35 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 20:03:35 -0400 Subject: IBM System/3 turns 40 ! In-Reply-To: <4A72279C.19908.6BA896B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200907310003.n6V03dAZ004995@billY.EZWIND.NET> On Thu, 30 Jul 2009 16:07:08 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: >Wasn't one of the problems with the 96 column mini-card that it used >only 6 punch positions per character on an otherwise 8-bt machine? >For those of you having used the system, was there such a thing as >column binary on the little cards? If so, was it 4 columns = 3 >bytes? The extra 2 bits occupied the printable area of the card on top. makeing each card 96 bytes. The other Bob From leolists at seidkr.com Thu Jul 30 19:47:51 2009 From: leolists at seidkr.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Philip_Leonard_WV=D8T?=) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 00:47:51 +0000 Subject: IBM System/3 turns 40 ! In-Reply-To: <200907310003.n6V03dAZ004995@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <200907310003.n6V03dAZ004995@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4A723F37.3000609@seidkr.com> Bob Bradlee wrote: > On Thu, 30 Jul 2009 16:07:08 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Wasn't one of the problems with the 96 column mini-card that it used >> only 6 punch positions per character on an otherwise 8-bt machine? >> For those of you having used the system, was there such a thing as >> column binary on the little cards? If so, was it 4 columns = 3 >> bytes? > > The extra 2 bits occupied the printable area of the card on top. > > makeing each card 96 bytes. > > The other Bob > It was BCD, sort of. The six "rows" were labeled "B", "A", "8", "4", "2", "1". Philip From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 30 20:02:52 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 18:02:52 -0700 Subject: IBM System/3 turns 40 ! In-Reply-To: <4A723F37.3000609@seidkr.com> References: <200907310003.n6V03dAZ004995@billY.EZWIND.NET>, <4A723F37.3000609@seidkr.com> Message-ID: <4A7242BC.17330.72479F7@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Jul 2009 at 0:47, Philip Leonard WV?T wrote: > It was BCD, sort of. The six "rows" were labeled "B", "A", "8", "4", > "2", "1". Bob Bradlee indicates that there were two "hidden" rows of bits. But yeah, BA8421 is what I remember. Kind of like the bit naming on 7 track tape or a 1401. --Chuck From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Jul 30 20:34:16 2009 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 21:34:16 -0400 Subject: List admin problems? In-Reply-To: References: <495351.36170.qm@web82601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A724A18.9040003@compsys.to> >Dave McGuire wrote: > >On Jul 30, 2009, at 3:14 AM, William Maddox wrote: > >> Am I the only person who has had trouble subscribing to the list? >> I've attempted a couple of times over the last couple of weeks >> to subscribe another email address with no success. I don't know >> if the moderators are just backed up, or if the requests are getting >> black-holed. > > > It took me a while to get back on. I had intended to unsub from > cctech and resub to cctalk. The former took a moment, the latter > almost two months. The Mailman subscription control interface was > broken for a long time, and may still be. Is it also likely that Jay is not answering his e-mails? I have sent a request to Jay twice now, but without a reply. Jeorme Fine From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jul 30 20:56:27 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 18:56:27 -0700 Subject: IBM System/3 turns 40 ! References: <200907310003.n6V03dAZ004995@billY.EZWIND.NET>, <4A723F37.3000609@seidkr.com> <4A7242BC.17330.72479F7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A724F4B.B12CC24F@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 31 Jul 2009 at 0:47, Philip Leonard WV?T wrote: > > > It was BCD, sort of. The six "rows" were labeled "B", "A", "8", "4", > > "2", "1". > > Bob Bradlee indicates that there were two "hidden" rows of bits. But > yeah, BA8421 is what I remember. Kind of like the bit naming on 7 > track tape or a 1401. This page has a description and a card image: http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/cards/history.html ..rather tortured layout for 8 bit bytes. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 30 21:38:59 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 19:38:59 -0700 Subject: IBM System/3 turns 40 ! In-Reply-To: <4A724F4B.B12CC24F@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200907310003.n6V03dAZ004995@billY.EZWIND.NET>, <4A724F4B.B12CC24F@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4A725943.8055.77C78E1@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Jul 2009 at 18:56, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > > On 31 Jul 2009 at 0:47, Philip Leonard WV?T wrote: > > > > > It was BCD, sort of. The six "rows" were labeled "B", "A", "8", > > > "4", "2", "1". > > > > Bob Bradlee indicates that there were two "hidden" rows of bits. > > But yeah, BA8421 is what I remember. Kind of like the bit naming on > > 7 track tape or a 1401. > > This page has a description and a card image: > > http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/cards/history.html > > ..rather tortured layout for 8 bit bytes. Ah, I understand now. 128 colum cards, of which only 96 were used until the demand for 8 bit codes was needed. It might be interesting to see a lace card in small format. ISTR that there were conversion kits for standard-sized card file furniture so that two rows of the mini cards could be held in a drawer. --Chuck --Chuck From evan at snarc.net Fri Jul 31 00:52:03 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 01:52:03 -0400 Subject: Very strange auction Message-ID: <4A728683.2090909@snarc.net> On the surface, it's an auction for a Kenbak-1. In reality it's the "CTI" version. But moreso, the seller is auctioning "full rights" to the current owner's autobiography .... !? That is very strange. Suppose someone wants to write a book disparaging this man. http://cgi.ebay.com/KENBAK-1-Vintage-PC-with-Books-Schematics-Much-More_W0QQitemZ230362549671QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item35a2ad8da7&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14 From wmaddox at pacbell.net Fri Jul 31 04:37:06 2009 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 02:37:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Very strange auction Message-ID: <662516.58596.qm@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 7/30/09, Evan Koblentz wrote: > In reality it's the "CTI" version.? But moreso, the > seller is auctioning "full rights" to the current owner's > autobiography .... !?? That is very strange. > > Suppose someone wants to write a book disparaging this > man. I believe Mr. Nielson has already written an autobiography (indeed, an *auto*biography is, by definition, written by its subject), and is acutioning the rights to publish it. --Bill From grant at stockly.com Fri Jul 31 04:43:17 2009 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 01:43:17 -0800 Subject: Very strange auction In-Reply-To: <4A728683.2090909@snarc.net> References: <4A728683.2090909@snarc.net> Message-ID: <0KNN001Q74ARKQ30@msgmmp-1.gci.net> At 09:52 PM 7/30/2009, you wrote: >On the surface, it's an auction for a Kenbak-1. > >In reality it's the "CTI" version. But moreso, the seller is >auctioning "full rights" to the current owner's autobiography .... >!? That is very strange. > >Suppose someone wants to write a book disparaging this man. Most documentation isn't that rare...especially the section on logic... I would imagine the differences in the manuals is simply the name. You can have mine for free. : ) It looked like there was a handful of unique documentation, but not $30,000! http://www.kenbakkit.com/manuals.html Also, the transfer of copyright is mentioned...which is an interesting point. CTI never paid the money agreed for licensing the Kenbak (and in fact returned parts for ~40 machines before folding), so I would imagine that printed materials licensed to CTI from John would not have been transferred and therefore couldn't have passed from CTI to Nelson. Not that it really matters! ; ) On a side note, I'm trying to sell an AutoCAD 1.4 machine... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250475137115 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 27 18:55:04 2009 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 16:55:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OFFLIST (due to being placed on moderated mode) was Re: Problems with IBM 5150 Power Message-ID: <850249.16667.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Assuming I read you correctly, the mobo appears to have problems. You should invest in a multimeter. 20$ or so from Radio Shack or even Walmart (probably in the automotive section). This way you can measure the voltages coming off the p/s pins accurately. Yes you sometimes need to "load down" a p/s to determine if it is functioning properly (in other words apply an actual resistance - the circuit it was meant to power or something equivalent. You can plug it into the mobo and test it by say pushing a paper clip into the back of the p/s connector for instance. Sounds like your mobo has issues. You want to start playing with old PCs and stuff - find some replacement mobos and whatnot. I'm too disorganized at the moment to even offer to provide one. Others in the group (MARCH) are bound to. Try Bill Degnan. But he's hours away... Besides swapping boards, try removing the socketed chips (CPU, etc.) and replacing just those. Or using that CPU in another computer or board. You have to have something else that runs an 8088 by now, don't you... Regards and best of luck. P.S - get a copy of "Inside the IBM PC", Peter Norton. Has to be PC-era. Has a picture of a mobo on the cover, but is very green. The earliest addition is not as useful as the slightly larger more commonly known one (i used to have the *newer* one, but have only the older, uglier, less useful addition now. Somewhere). It's a M-U-S-T if you're going to develop a basic understanding of what's going on under duh hood. You need to get a copy. --- On Mon, 7/27/09, Joe Giliberti wrote: > From: Joe Giliberti > Subject: Problems with IBM 5150 Power > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Monday, July 27, 2009, 7:03 PM > I recently acquired a 5150. It is a > 16-64k with two drives and color. I have > not been able to boot it up yet. I cleaned the inside, and > made sure > everything was well connected. When I flick the power on, > the CPU fan goes, > and nothing else. There is power coming out of the > motherboard and drive > connectors, but there is nothing at the ISA slot. No beeps > or anything. I > tested the power supply with a modern CD drive. It worked. > I removed the > motherboard and inspected it for obviously bad components > and scorch marks. > I then opened the power supply. It was pretty clean, except > for the hornet's > nest inside. I haven't yet removed that board, but plan to > soon. The fuse is > intact. > > Can anyone suggest what to do next? I have PDFs of the > Hardware Maintaince > manual and the technical service manual. > > Thanks > Joe > From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Fri Jul 31 07:31:41 2009 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 05:31:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UNIBUS PCB mailers Message-ID: <89892.84394.qm@web56203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Looking for some UNIBUS size PCB mailing boxes. Sending various spare boards out to people and have run out of mailing boxes that are suitable. UK if possible. Mail me of list if you have anything. Thanks! Ian. From trag at io.com Fri Jul 31 11:29:50 2009 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 11:29:50 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Andromeda Systems (ebay) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <567de614b894e14f9515cb843cf50c40.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> > Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 00:33:42 -0700 (PDT) > From: William Maddox > > Ebay Item # 350229860975 > > VINTAGE ANDROMEDA SYSTEMS 11/B ASI TAPE/DISK DRIVE > > Despite the seller's description, this looks to be a complete > computer. Any idea what it is? I don't know, but if you hurt your back lifting it, you'll have the Andromeda Strain.... Jeff Walther From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jul 31 11:34:32 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 09:34:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Andromeda Systems (ebay) In-Reply-To: <567de614b894e14f9515cb843cf50c40.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> from Jeff Walther at "Jul 31, 9 11:29:50 am" Message-ID: <200907311634.n6VGYXl6022352@floodgap.com> > > VINTAGE ANDROMEDA SYSTEMS 11/B ASI TAPE/DISK DRIVE > > > > Despite the seller's description, this looks to be a complete > > computer. Any idea what it is? > > I don't know, but if you hurt your back lifting it, you'll have the > Andromeda Strain.... AUGH! -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Dates on calendar are closer than they appear. ----------------------------- From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Jul 31 11:38:56 2009 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 12:38:56 -0400 Subject: Andromeda Systems (ebay) In-Reply-To: <200907311634.n6VGYXl6022352@floodgap.com> Message-ID: > > > VINTAGE ANDROMEDA SYSTEMS 11/B ASI TAPE/DISK DRIVE > > > > > > Despite the seller's description, this looks to be a complete > > > computer. Any idea what it is? > > > > I don't know, but if you hurt your back lifting it, you'll have the > > Andromeda Strain.... > > AUGH! B as in Broken, A as in Awful, D as in Dropping From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 31 12:27:36 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 18:27:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: OFFLIST (due to being placed on moderated mode) was Re: Problems with In-Reply-To: <850249.16667.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Jul 27, 9 04:55:04 pm Message-ID: > > > Assuming I read you correctly, the mobo appears to have problems. I really dislike that abreviation. 'System Planar' I can tolerate, but not that one... [...] > Besides swapping boards, try removing the socketed chips (CPU, etc.) > and replacing just those. Or using that CPU in another computer or > board. You have to have something else that runs an 8088 by now, don't > you... > Alternatively, you could try something that's gone out of fashion now, but which IMHO is the _only_ way to repair a computer (or for that matter anything else). And that is to make measurments, deduce what's working and what's not, and fix the faulty part. It's already been suggested you get a multimeter (and I'll go along with that). A logic probe (if you can still find one) is useful too. More complex and expensive test gear includes an oscilloscope and a logic analyser. You probably don;t need those at this point. Try to get the IBM Personal Computer Techncial Reference Manual. It contains full scheamtics of the motherboard (and in early editions the I/O boards, these were later moved to the Options and Adapters TechRefs). This is how I'd attack this problem. Assuming you are prepared to risk the motherboard on this PSU (and to be honest it's not much of a risk), conenct the PSU to the motherboard and power up. Using a voltmeter (voltage rages of a multimeter), check the power voltages at the PSU connector on the motherboard. If any are missing/wrong then either the PSU is faulty (and needs repair), or there's a short somwhere on the motherboard (maybe a decoupling capacitor). If the votlages are OK there, check them at the power pins of a few ICs. If they're msisign there, there's an open-circuit on the motherboard. Now, using the logic probe, check that the CPU clock is present and that the thing is not being held in the reset state. Check that the address and data buses arte active (toggling signals). -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jul 31 12:55:52 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 11:55:52 -0600 Subject: Andromeda Systems (ebay) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A733028.2010909@jetnet.ab.ca> Bill Sudbrink wrote: >>>> VINTAGE ANDROMEDA SYSTEMS 11/B ASI TAPE/DISK DRIVE >>>> >>>> Despite the seller's description, this looks to be a complete >>>> computer. Any idea what it is? >>> I don't know, but if you hurt your back lifting it, you'll have the >>> Andromeda Strain.... >> AUGH! > > B as in Broken, A as in Awful, D as in Dropping > I was thinking ... *DING* Check the TTY for NEW INSTRUCTIONS ... :) From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jul 31 16:36:54 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 14:36:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Problems with IBM 5150 Power In-Reply-To: <850249.16667.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <850249.16667.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090731143348.L92480@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 27 Jul 2009, Chris M wrote: > You should invest in a multimeter. 20$ or so from Radio Shack or even > Walmart (probably in the automotive section). This way you can measure $2.99 at Harborfreight Good price if there are no critical lethal issues requiring accuracy. > Besides swapping boards, try removing the socketed chips (CPU, etc.) and > replacing just those. Or using that CPU in another computer or board. > You have to have something else that runs an 8088 by now, don't you... > > Regards and best of luck. > > P.S - get a copy of "Inside the IBM PC", Peter Norton. Has to be PC-era. I don't agree Get a copy of the IBM PC Technical Reference Manual. Schematics Source code for the BIOS Maybe one of Scott Mueller's R&U From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jul 31 16:44:25 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 17:44:25 -0400 Subject: Problems with IBM 5150 Power In-Reply-To: <20090731143348.L92480@shell.lmi.net> References: <850249.16667.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20090731143348.L92480@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <3FAB582B-859C-453D-9F45-FA03CD602B24@neurotica.com> On Jul 31, 2009, at 5:36 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> You should invest in a multimeter. 20$ or so from Radio Shack or even >> Walmart (probably in the automotive section). This way you can >> measure > > $2.99 at Harborfreight > Good price if there are no critical lethal issues requiring accuracy. I find it unfathomable that people would actually use "tools" like this. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Jul 31 17:16:13 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 23:16:13 +0100 Subject: Wanted - Philips SAA5240 User's Manual, or parts thereof Message-ID: <4A736D2D.90100@philpem.me.uk> (This is a repost; my first attempt seems to have vanished into the aether) Hi guys, Apologies for the slight OT-ness of this post, but I seem to recall there being a few folks here with copies of old Philips Semiconductor, Signetics and Mullard databooks kicking around... Basically, I've dug my old Ground Control UTA-1 "Universal Teletext Adapter" out of the cupboard, and I'd rather like to make it work on my Linux box. I've found some details on the CITAC chip that controls the tuning, and a bit more info on the tuner module, so at this point I can connect it up, get an I2C ACK from the CITAC, and tune in a channel. Problem is, my datasheet for the SAA5240A Teletext controller chip is either an early release, or is just plain incomplete. For a start, there's a reference to Ghost Rows Mode, which from what I can tell allows access to the "extended" Teletext data rows which carry the Fastext page-jumping data. Does anyone have a copy of the Philips/Signetics/Mullard "SAA5240 User's Manual" to hand? If so, I could do with scans or photocopies of parts of it, especially the stuff about Ghost Row mode. I'm also open to buying the book outright if anyone wants to get rid of theirs... FWIW, I suspect the SAA5243 or SAA5246 manual would be just as good, the register maps seem to be more or less identical (based on the datasheets). Hardly surprising, really. Thanks. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 31 17:22:30 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 15:22:30 -0700 Subject: Problems with IBM 5150 Power In-Reply-To: <3FAB582B-859C-453D-9F45-FA03CD602B24@neurotica.com> References: <850249.16667.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <20090731143348.L92480@shell.lmi.net>, <3FAB582B-859C-453D-9F45-FA03CD602B24@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A736EA6.5054.BB82BB3@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Jul 2009 at 17:44, Dave McGuire wrote: > > $2.99 at Harborfreight > > Good price if there are no critical lethal issues requiring > > accuracy. > > I find it unfathomable that people would actually use "tools" like > this. And that includes the battery. It depends--I've got a couple of these that I'll toss into a toolbox if I'm looking for a quick reading or continuity test. If it gets dropped or eaten by a dog, no biggie. The Fluke stays home. If someone needed only to take a few readings and didn't have a meter of any kind, I'd have no problem with him using one of these, particularly if he first did a "sanity" check (e.g. check the voltage on a new carbon-zinc cell to see if it was somewhere around 1.5v and perhaps checked a known good resistor or two). On the other hand, if a reliable bench tool was needed for frequent use, the $3 DVM is clearly not up to the job. After the Fluke, my next favorite DVM didn't cost a dime--I received as a promotion with an order. It's a rubber-sheathed, backlit auto- off large-display DVM that will measure temperature, capacitance and frequency in addition to the usual A-V-O. I've dropped it more than a few times, and it still works fine with perfectly acceptable accuracy. Personally, I have a bigger problem with people using cheap pliers, screwdrivers and soldering irons than with cheap DVMs. It's harder to damage something with a DVM. --Chuck From philpem at philpem.me.uk Fri Jul 31 12:24:59 2009 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 18:24:59 +0100 Subject: Slightly-OT: Philips SAA5240 User's Manual Message-ID: <4A7328EB.6070600@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, I seem to recall there being a few folks here with copies of old Philips Semiconductor, Signetics and Mullard databooks kicking around... Basically, I've dug my old Ground Control UTA-1 "Universal Teletext Adapter" out of the cupboard, and I'd rather like to make it work on my Linux box. I've found some details on the CITAC chip that controls the tuning, and a bit more info on the tuner module, so at this point I can connect it up, get an I2C ACK from the CITAC, and tune in a channel. Problem is, my datasheet for the SAA5240A Teletext controller chip is either an early release, or is just plain incomplete. For a start, there's a reference to Ghost Rows Mode, which from what I can tell allows access to the "extended" Teletext data rows which carry the Fastext page-jumping data. Does anyone have a copy of the "SAA5240 user's manual" to hand? FWIW, I suspect the SAA5243 manual would be just as good, the register maps seem to be mostly identical... Thanks. -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/